From ether.joe at gmail.com  Thu May  7 22:26:20 2015
From: ether.joe at gmail.com (Sean Felipe Wolfe)
Date: Thu, 7 May 2015 13:26:20 -0700
Subject: [Idle-dev] Updates to the IDLE Dev Guide
In-Reply-To: <CAM=hmRP=Kx5Fjbk9rX9uiqJtc2s77Bc7ro-7S6RXihWQsbVURA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAM=hmROARiHQD1gEgLPJ2jOgk7_5iV-3vud9N8nZSUuROBkOKQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <mgpcnm$ci7$1@ger.gmane.org>
 <CAM=hmRP=Kx5Fjbk9rX9uiqJtc2s77Bc7ro-7S6RXihWQsbVURA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAOFf2a3j3t3-oBqe44TSeOY0s_rP=D0sSMbK8FpS_R3aopFBQw@mail.gmail.com>

Hey guys, I've got some cycles opening up and I'd like to help out a bit
with IDLE development. I'm reading the guide now and I'll be in touch.

I'm especially interested in helping the existing contributions get tested
and finalized so they can get pushed into the latest python 2 and 3
releases.

There's also an issue in OSX with the Preferences window, where the ok and
apply buttons have the wrong font size. I'll attach a screenshot here and
see if there's an issue already filed.





On Apr 16, 2015 6:02 PM, "Al Sweigart" <al at inventwithpython.com> wrote:

> Oh excellent, Terry. I've posted a patch to edit the idle_test readme:
> https://bugs.python.org/issue23964
>
> Mostly I wanted the info about how to run the tests at the very top in
> the "Instant User's Manual" section. I reworded some parts slightly,
> but feel free to comment on any changes that might not be accurate or
> missing details.
>
> On Thu, Apr 16, 2015 at 6:22 PM, Terry Reedy <tjreedy at udel.edu> wrote:
> > On 4/14/2015 2:27 PM, Al Sweigart wrote:
> >>
> >> I'm trying to revamp the IDLE Dev Guide on Phil Jone's github account.
> >
> >
> > I got the link from the response.  I don't believe it has been announced
> > here before, hence I was not aware of it.
> >
> >> For now I've added a few tkinter resources and links, but eventually
> >
> >
> > The material at that link *might* become a chapter or addendum to the
> > general devguide.  Or put in idlelib.
> >
> >> I'd like to add high-level descriptions of each source file in the
> >> idlelib folder.
> >
> >
> > On my list of todo's.  I know enough now to write such discriptions.  So
> I
> > should do so.
> >
> >> It'd be great if others could add to it. Especially if you are
> >> familiar with how to run IDLE's test suite.
> >
> >
> > I already wrote idlelib/idle_test/README.txt as a 'devguide' for writing
> and
> > running Idle tests.  I refer back to it myself for forgotten details.
> >
> > --
> > Terry Jan Reedy
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > IDLE-dev mailing list
> > IDLE-dev at python.org
> > https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/idle-dev
> _______________________________________________
> IDLE-dev mailing list
> IDLE-dev at python.org
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/idle-dev
>
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From ether.joe at gmail.com  Thu May  7 22:40:40 2015
From: ether.joe at gmail.com (Sean Felipe Wolfe)
Date: Thu, 7 May 2015 13:40:40 -0700
Subject: [Idle-dev] issue 2704 - shell terminal functionality
Message-ID: <CAOFf2a3vURW2f9S96kE8h4XK1=NxSmS17XpW8BbVHtTynp7aJA@mail.gmail.com>

https://bugs.python.org/issue2704
Title: IDLE: Patch to make PyShell behave more like a Terminal interface

I'd love to see this patch committed to the main line. Do we think the
change is ready at this point?

Thanks!

-- 
A musician must make music, an artist must paint, a poet must write,
if he is to be ultimately at peace with himself.
- Abraham Maslow

From al at inventwithpython.com  Fri May  8 01:27:38 2015
From: al at inventwithpython.com (Al Sweigart)
Date: Thu, 7 May 2015 16:27:38 -0700
Subject: [Idle-dev] issue 2704 - shell terminal functionality
In-Reply-To: <CAOFf2a3vURW2f9S96kE8h4XK1=NxSmS17XpW8BbVHtTynp7aJA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAOFf2a3vURW2f9S96kE8h4XK1=NxSmS17XpW8BbVHtTynp7aJA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAM=hmRNJGyzWSt5zzDs7GtpJj+EsbivKa3U_DmTNsQauK9qD-Q@mail.gmail.com>

Hi Sean. I'll take a look at the patch on my Windows 7 machine later this week.

On Thu, May 7, 2015 at 1:40 PM, Sean Felipe Wolfe <ether.joe at gmail.com> wrote:
> https://bugs.python.org/issue2704
> Title: IDLE: Patch to make PyShell behave more like a Terminal interface
>
> I'd love to see this patch committed to the main line. Do we think the
> change is ready at this point?
>
> Thanks!
>
> --
> A musician must make music, an artist must paint, a poet must write,
> if he is to be ultimately at peace with himself.
> - Abraham Maslow
> _______________________________________________
> IDLE-dev mailing list
> IDLE-dev at python.org
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/idle-dev

From kw at codebykevin.com  Fri May  8 01:47:48 2015
From: kw at codebykevin.com (Kevin Walzer)
Date: Thu, 07 May 2015 19:47:48 -0400
Subject: [Idle-dev] Updates to the IDLE Dev Guide
In-Reply-To: <CAOFf2a3j3t3-oBqe44TSeOY0s_rP=D0sSMbK8FpS_R3aopFBQw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAM=hmROARiHQD1gEgLPJ2jOgk7_5iV-3vud9N8nZSUuROBkOKQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <mgpcnm$ci7$1@ger.gmane.org>
 <CAM=hmRP=Kx5Fjbk9rX9uiqJtc2s77Bc7ro-7S6RXihWQsbVURA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAOFf2a3j3t3-oBqe44TSeOY0s_rP=D0sSMbK8FpS_R3aopFBQw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <554BF9A4.40405@codebykevin.com>

On 5/7/15 4:26 PM, Sean Felipe Wolfe wrote:
> There's also an issue in OSX with the Preferences window, where the ok 
> and apply buttons have the wrong font size. I'll attach a screenshot 
> here and see if there's an issue already filed.
That's more an issue with Tk than IDLE, and it's been fixed upstream. My 
installation of IDLE, which is based on a trunk build of Tk on Yosemite, 
doesn't display those artifacts.

--Kevin

-- 
Kevin Walzer
Code by Kevin/Mobile Code by Kevin
http://www.codebykevin.com
http://www.wtmobilesoftware.com


From kw at codebykevin.com  Fri May  8 02:08:17 2015
From: kw at codebykevin.com (Kevin Walzer)
Date: Thu, 07 May 2015 20:08:17 -0400
Subject: [Idle-dev] Updates to the IDLE Dev Guide
In-Reply-To: <CAOFf2a3j3t3-oBqe44TSeOY0s_rP=D0sSMbK8FpS_R3aopFBQw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAM=hmROARiHQD1gEgLPJ2jOgk7_5iV-3vud9N8nZSUuROBkOKQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <mgpcnm$ci7$1@ger.gmane.org>
 <CAM=hmRP=Kx5Fjbk9rX9uiqJtc2s77Bc7ro-7S6RXihWQsbVURA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAOFf2a3j3t3-oBqe44TSeOY0s_rP=D0sSMbK8FpS_R3aopFBQw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <554BFE71.7070809@codebykevin.com>

On 5/7/15 4:26 PM, Sean Felipe Wolfe wrote:
>
> There's also an issue in OSX with the Preferences window, where the ok 
> and apply buttons have the wrong font size. I'll attach a screenshot 
> here and see if there's an issue already filed.
>
That's more an issue with Tk than IDLE, and it's been fixed upstream. My 
installation of IDLE, which is based on a trunk build of Tk on Yosemite, 
doesn't display those artifacts.

--Kevin

-- 
Kevin Walzer
Code by Kevin/Mobile Code by Kevin
http://www.codebykevin.com
http://www.wtmobilesoftware.com


From ether.joe at gmail.com  Fri May  8 02:35:39 2015
From: ether.joe at gmail.com (Sean Felipe Wolfe)
Date: Thu, 7 May 2015 17:35:39 -0700
Subject: [Idle-dev] issue 2704 - shell terminal functionality
In-Reply-To: <CAM=hmRNJGyzWSt5zzDs7GtpJj+EsbivKa3U_DmTNsQauK9qD-Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAOFf2a3vURW2f9S96kE8h4XK1=NxSmS17XpW8BbVHtTynp7aJA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM=hmRNJGyzWSt5zzDs7GtpJj+EsbivKa3U_DmTNsQauK9qD-Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAOFf2a298hZPPNnjQGORckKzceCsCta17mguKx3cL38dJjWnsw@mail.gmail.com>

Hey Al if that's what you need, I'm happy to take of that. I've got a
W7 machine as well.

On Thu, May 7, 2015 at 4:27 PM, Al Sweigart <al at inventwithpython.com> wrote:
> Hi Sean. I'll take a look at the patch on my Windows 7 machine later this week.
>
> On Thu, May 7, 2015 at 1:40 PM, Sean Felipe Wolfe <ether.joe at gmail.com> wrote:
>> https://bugs.python.org/issue2704
>> Title: IDLE: Patch to make PyShell behave more like a Terminal interface
>>
>> I'd love to see this patch committed to the main line. Do we think the
>> change is ready at this point?
>>
>> Thanks!
>>
>> --
>> A musician must make music, an artist must paint, a poet must write,
>> if he is to be ultimately at peace with himself.
>> - Abraham Maslow
>> _______________________________________________
>> IDLE-dev mailing list
>> IDLE-dev at python.org
>> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/idle-dev



-- 
A musician must make music, an artist must paint, a poet must write,
if he is to be ultimately at peace with himself.
- Abraham Maslow

From ether.joe at gmail.com  Fri May  8 02:40:14 2015
From: ether.joe at gmail.com (Sean Felipe Wolfe)
Date: Thu, 7 May 2015 17:40:14 -0700
Subject: [Idle-dev] Updates to the IDLE Dev Guide
In-Reply-To: <554BFE71.7070809@codebykevin.com>
References: <CAM=hmROARiHQD1gEgLPJ2jOgk7_5iV-3vud9N8nZSUuROBkOKQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <mgpcnm$ci7$1@ger.gmane.org>
 <CAM=hmRP=Kx5Fjbk9rX9uiqJtc2s77Bc7ro-7S6RXihWQsbVURA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAOFf2a3j3t3-oBqe44TSeOY0s_rP=D0sSMbK8FpS_R3aopFBQw@mail.gmail.com>
 <554BFE71.7070809@codebykevin.com>
Message-ID: <CAOFf2a3oXDv4Y1GQSMoWyBLYozLH9oOz+R18My2bH17TKUvyow@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, May 7, 2015 at 5:08 PM, Kevin  Walzer <kw at codebykevin.com> wrote:
> On 5/7/15 4:26 PM, Sean Felipe Wolfe wrote:
>>
>>
>> There's also an issue in OSX with the Preferences window, where the ok and
>> apply buttons have the wrong font size. I'll attach a screenshot here and
>> see if there's an issue already filed.
>>
> That's more an issue with Tk than IDLE, and it's been fixed upstream. My
> installation of IDLE, which is based on a trunk build of Tk on Yosemite,
> doesn't display those artifacts.
>

Where does the Tk dependency come from in a default Python install --
does it come from within Python? I'd love to see it not appear.

If it's a matter of osx not having an updated Tk ... maybe we can work around?

Just curious as it looks kind of wonky.

From kw at codebykevin.com  Fri May  8 02:44:44 2015
From: kw at codebykevin.com (Kevin Walzer)
Date: Thu, 07 May 2015 20:44:44 -0400
Subject: [Idle-dev] Updates to the IDLE Dev Guide
In-Reply-To: <CAOFf2a3oXDv4Y1GQSMoWyBLYozLH9oOz+R18My2bH17TKUvyow@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAM=hmROARiHQD1gEgLPJ2jOgk7_5iV-3vud9N8nZSUuROBkOKQ@mail.gmail.com>	<mgpcnm$ci7$1@ger.gmane.org>	<CAM=hmRP=Kx5Fjbk9rX9uiqJtc2s77Bc7ro-7S6RXihWQsbVURA@mail.gmail.com>	<CAOFf2a3j3t3-oBqe44TSeOY0s_rP=D0sSMbK8FpS_R3aopFBQw@mail.gmail.com>	<554BFE71.7070809@codebykevin.com>
 <CAOFf2a3oXDv4Y1GQSMoWyBLYozLH9oOz+R18My2bH17TKUvyow@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <554C06FC.5070605@codebykevin.com>

On 5/7/15 8:40 PM, Sean Felipe Wolfe wrote:
> Where does the Tk dependency come from in a default Python install --
> does it come from within Python? I'd love to see it not appear.
Tkinter is the UI toolkit that IDLE uses; it's a Python wrapper for Tk.
> If it's a matter of osx not having an updated Tk ... maybe we can work around?
Just install a more recent Tk. ActiveTcl is a good place to look.

> Just curious as it looks kind of wonky.
Agreed.

--Kevin


-- 
Kevin Walzer
Code by Kevin/Mobile Code by Kevin
http://www.codebykevin.com
http://www.wtmobilesoftware.com


From tjreedy at udel.edu  Sat May  9 19:21:12 2015
From: tjreedy at udel.edu (Terry Reedy)
Date: Sat, 09 May 2015 13:21:12 -0400
Subject: [Idle-dev] issue 2704 - shell terminal functionality
In-Reply-To: <CAOFf2a3vURW2f9S96kE8h4XK1=NxSmS17XpW8BbVHtTynp7aJA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAOFf2a3vURW2f9S96kE8h4XK1=NxSmS17XpW8BbVHtTynp7aJA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <milfmc$ce0$1@ger.gmane.org>

On 5/7/2015 4:40 PM, Sean Felipe Wolfe wrote:
> https://bugs.python.org/issue2704
> Title: IDLE: Patch to make PyShell behave more like a Terminal interface
>
> I'd love to see this patch

Which one? The last one? There are multiple patches attached to the 
issue, with multiple possible behavior changes.

> committed to the main line. Do we think the
> change is ready at this point?

UI changes should best be tested on each of windows, linux, and mac.

-- 
Terry Jan Reedy


From tjreedy at udel.edu  Sat May  9 19:56:57 2015
From: tjreedy at udel.edu (Terry Reedy)
Date: Sat, 09 May 2015 13:56:57 -0400
Subject: [Idle-dev] Updates to the IDLE Dev Guide
In-Reply-To: <CAOFf2a3oXDv4Y1GQSMoWyBLYozLH9oOz+R18My2bH17TKUvyow@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAM=hmROARiHQD1gEgLPJ2jOgk7_5iV-3vud9N8nZSUuROBkOKQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <mgpcnm$ci7$1@ger.gmane.org>
 <CAM=hmRP=Kx5Fjbk9rX9uiqJtc2s77Bc7ro-7S6RXihWQsbVURA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAOFf2a3j3t3-oBqe44TSeOY0s_rP=D0sSMbK8FpS_R3aopFBQw@mail.gmail.com>
 <554BFE71.7070809@codebykevin.com>
 <CAOFf2a3oXDv4Y1GQSMoWyBLYozLH9oOz+R18My2bH17TKUvyow@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <milhpe$c6b$1@ger.gmane.org>

On 5/7/2015 8:40 PM, Sean Felipe Wolfe wrote:

> Where does the Tk dependency come from in a default Python install --

The windows installer is the only one that installs the tcl/tk 
dependency. And we usually stick with the same patchlevel for all 
bug-fix releases.

Mac comes with tcl/tk installed, but it has usually been an 'older' 
version with bugs since fixed. There is a page on python.org 
recommending particular tcl/tk builds (from Active State) for particular 
Python and OSX versions.

Kevin, it looks like tcl.tk only distributes 8.5 and 8.6.  How long has 
it been since 8.4 was distributed?  I am wondering how long tkinter 
should keep code for pre 8.5.

Also, does 8.6.4 have any new features versus 8.6.0, or just bug fixes, 
as with Python?

-- 
Terry Jan Reedy


From kw at codebykevin.com  Sat May  9 20:33:30 2015
From: kw at codebykevin.com (Kevin Walzer)
Date: Sat, 09 May 2015 14:33:30 -0400
Subject: [Idle-dev] Updates to the IDLE Dev Guide
In-Reply-To: <milhpe$c6b$1@ger.gmane.org>
References: <CAM=hmROARiHQD1gEgLPJ2jOgk7_5iV-3vud9N8nZSUuROBkOKQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <mgpcnm$ci7$1@ger.gmane.org>
 <CAM=hmRP=Kx5Fjbk9rX9uiqJtc2s77Bc7ro-7S6RXihWQsbVURA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAOFf2a3j3t3-oBqe44TSeOY0s_rP=D0sSMbK8FpS_R3aopFBQw@mail.gmail.com>
 <554BFE71.7070809@codebykevin.com>
 <CAOFf2a3oXDv4Y1GQSMoWyBLYozLH9oOz+R18My2bH17TKUvyow@mail.gmail.com>
 <milhpe$c6b$1@ger.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <554E52FA.2000905@codebykevin.com>

On 5/9/15 1:56 PM, Terry Reedy wrote:
> Kevin, it looks like tcl.tk only distributes 8.5 and 8.6.  How long 
> has it been since 8.4 was distributed?  I am wondering how long 
> tkinter should keep code for pre 8.5.

8.4 was EOL'ed a year or two ago. The last release was (I think) 8.4.20.
>
> Also, does 8.6.4 have any new features versus 8.6.0, or just bug 
> fixes, as with Python? 

In terms of language design, no new features (an object system and 
coroutines were major features with 8.6.0 in Tcl). The Windows and X11 
versions of Tk have had minor updates  /  bug fixes only, I believe.

Because it has never been very stable, the Mac port of Tk has remained 
under heavy development even with minor point releases (Marc Culler, 
developer of the Python scientific visualizer SnapPy, has contributed 
many patches, and I have also done a lot of work). It remains based on 
Cocoa, but a lot of under-the-hood engineering has taken place to firm 
up the event loop and simplify drawing of widgets with a lower-level 
API. These changes will be present in 8.6.5, which I think will be the 
first truly stable version of Tk since it was ported to Cocoa.

--Kevin

-- 
Kevin Walzer
Code by Kevin/Mobile Code by Kevin
http://www.codebykevin.com
http://www.wtmobilesoftware.com


From kw at codebykevin.com  Sat May  9 20:35:24 2015
From: kw at codebykevin.com (Kevin Walzer)
Date: Sat, 09 May 2015 14:35:24 -0400
Subject: [Idle-dev] Updates to the IDLE Dev Guide
In-Reply-To: <milhpe$c6b$1@ger.gmane.org>
References: <CAM=hmROARiHQD1gEgLPJ2jOgk7_5iV-3vud9N8nZSUuROBkOKQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <mgpcnm$ci7$1@ger.gmane.org>
 <CAM=hmRP=Kx5Fjbk9rX9uiqJtc2s77Bc7ro-7S6RXihWQsbVURA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAOFf2a3j3t3-oBqe44TSeOY0s_rP=D0sSMbK8FpS_R3aopFBQw@mail.gmail.com>
 <554BFE71.7070809@codebykevin.com>
 <CAOFf2a3oXDv4Y1GQSMoWyBLYozLH9oOz+R18My2bH17TKUvyow@mail.gmail.com>
 <milhpe$c6b$1@ger.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <554E536C.7010806@codebykevin.com>

On 5/9/15 1:56 PM, Terry Reedy wrote:
> Also, does 8.6.4 have any new features versus 8.6.0, or just bug 
> fixes, as with Python? 
In addition to the work on Mac/Tk in 8.6, those changes have also been 
backported to 8.5; 8.5.19 will have them, if I'm counting releases 
correctly.

-- 
Kevin Walzer
Code by Kevin/Mobile Code by Kevin
http://www.codebykevin.com
http://www.wtmobilesoftware.com


From tjreedy at udel.edu  Sat May  9 22:30:56 2015
From: tjreedy at udel.edu (Terry Reedy)
Date: Sat, 09 May 2015 16:30:56 -0400
Subject: [Idle-dev] Updates to the IDLE Dev Guide
In-Reply-To: <554E52FA.2000905@codebykevin.com>
References: <CAM=hmROARiHQD1gEgLPJ2jOgk7_5iV-3vud9N8nZSUuROBkOKQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <mgpcnm$ci7$1@ger.gmane.org>
 <CAM=hmRP=Kx5Fjbk9rX9uiqJtc2s77Bc7ro-7S6RXihWQsbVURA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAOFf2a3j3t3-oBqe44TSeOY0s_rP=D0sSMbK8FpS_R3aopFBQw@mail.gmail.com>
 <554BFE71.7070809@codebykevin.com>
 <CAOFf2a3oXDv4Y1GQSMoWyBLYozLH9oOz+R18My2bH17TKUvyow@mail.gmail.com>
 <milhpe$c6b$1@ger.gmane.org> <554E52FA.2000905@codebykevin.com>
Message-ID: <milqq4$jl3$1@ger.gmane.org>

On 5/9/2015 2:33 PM, Kevin Walzer wrote:
> On 5/9/15 1:56 PM, Terry Reedy wrote:
>> Kevin, it looks like tcl.tk only distributes 8.5 and 8.6.  How long
>> has it been since 8.4 was distributed?  I am wondering how long
>> tkinter should keep code for pre 8.5.
>
> 8.4 was EOL'ed a year or two ago. The last release was (I think) 8.4.20.
>>
>> Also, does 8.6.4 have any new features versus 8.6.0, or just bug
>> fixes, as with Python?
>
> In terms of language design, no new features (an object system and
> coroutines were major features with 8.6.0 in Tcl). The Windows and X11
> versions of Tk have had minor updates  /  bug fixes only, I believe.

The 'minor updates' listed in http://wiki.tcl.tk/21276 are new features 
from a Python perspective.  Tkinter will need to be updated to use some 
of them.

> Because it has never been very stable, the Mac port of Tk has remained
> under heavy development even with minor point releases (Marc Culler,
> developer of the Python scientific visualizer SnapPy, has contributed
> many patches, and I have also done a lot of work). It remains based on
> Cocoa, but a lot of under-the-hood engineering has taken place to firm
> up the event loop and simplify drawing of widgets with a lower-level
> API. These changes will be present in 8.6.5, which I think will be the
> first truly stable version of Tk since it was ported to Cocoa.

Any idea on release?  Py 3.5 should be out in September.

-- 
Terry Jan Reedy


From kw at codebykevin.com  Sun May 10 03:10:17 2015
From: kw at codebykevin.com (Kevin Walzer)
Date: Sat, 09 May 2015 21:10:17 -0400
Subject: [Idle-dev] Updates to the IDLE Dev Guide
In-Reply-To: <milqq4$jl3$1@ger.gmane.org>
References: <CAM=hmROARiHQD1gEgLPJ2jOgk7_5iV-3vud9N8nZSUuROBkOKQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <mgpcnm$ci7$1@ger.gmane.org>
 <CAM=hmRP=Kx5Fjbk9rX9uiqJtc2s77Bc7ro-7S6RXihWQsbVURA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAOFf2a3j3t3-oBqe44TSeOY0s_rP=D0sSMbK8FpS_R3aopFBQw@mail.gmail.com>
 <554BFE71.7070809@codebykevin.com>
 <CAOFf2a3oXDv4Y1GQSMoWyBLYozLH9oOz+R18My2bH17TKUvyow@mail.gmail.com>
 <milhpe$c6b$1@ger.gmane.org> <554E52FA.2000905@codebykevin.com>
 <milqq4$jl3$1@ger.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <554EAFF9.6020504@codebykevin.com>

On 5/9/15 4:30 PM, Terry Reedy wrote:
> The 'minor updates' listed in http://wiki.tcl.tk/21276 are new 
> features from a Python perspective.  Tkinter will need to be updated 
> to use some of them.
I believe those changes are all new with 8.6.0 (released in December 
2012), not 8.6.4. In other words, yes, those are new features, not minor 
updates, and Tkinter should support them, but they have been present and 
out in the wild for more than two years.  I'm a bit surprised that no 
one in the Python community has tracked these developments. Does Tkinter 
have a lead maintainer?
>
> Any idea on release?  Py 3.5 should be out in September.
>
Not sure. There isn't a standard schedule.

--Kevin

-- 
Kevin Walzer
Code by Kevin/Mobile Code by Kevin
http://www.codebykevin.com
http://www.wtmobilesoftware.com


From tjreedy at udel.edu  Sun May 10 08:33:00 2015
From: tjreedy at udel.edu (Terry Reedy)
Date: Sun, 10 May 2015 02:33:00 -0400
Subject: [Idle-dev] Updates to the IDLE Dev Guide
In-Reply-To: <554EAFF9.6020504@codebykevin.com>
References: <CAM=hmROARiHQD1gEgLPJ2jOgk7_5iV-3vud9N8nZSUuROBkOKQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <mgpcnm$ci7$1@ger.gmane.org>
 <CAM=hmRP=Kx5Fjbk9rX9uiqJtc2s77Bc7ro-7S6RXihWQsbVURA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAOFf2a3j3t3-oBqe44TSeOY0s_rP=D0sSMbK8FpS_R3aopFBQw@mail.gmail.com>
 <554BFE71.7070809@codebykevin.com>
 <CAOFf2a3oXDv4Y1GQSMoWyBLYozLH9oOz+R18My2bH17TKUvyow@mail.gmail.com>
 <milhpe$c6b$1@ger.gmane.org> <554E52FA.2000905@codebykevin.com>
 <milqq4$jl3$1@ger.gmane.org> <554EAFF9.6020504@codebykevin.com>
Message-ID: <mimu31$kau$1@ger.gmane.org>

On 5/9/2015 9:10 PM, Kevin Walzer wrote:
> On 5/9/15 4:30 PM, Terry Reedy wrote:
>> The 'minor updates' listed in http://wiki.tcl.tk/21276 are new
>> features from a Python perspective.  Tkinter will need to be updated
>> to use some of them.
> I believe those changes are all new with 8.6.0 (released in December
> 2012), not 8.6.4. In other words, yes, those are new features, not minor
> updates, and Tkinter should support them, but they have been present and
> out in the wild for more than two years.  I'm a bit surprised that no
> one in the Python community has tracked these developments. Does Tkinter
> have a lead maintainer?

Serhiy Storchaka currently.  He currently works on other modules, but I 
presume continues to look at tkinter issues when they arrive.  I am 
thinking of posting to pydev to make sure that there is no policy 
against tracking new features, and if not, open a master issue pointing 
to updates page and listing tk changes that need action.  I believe that 
new option values like PhotoImage(format='png') work already because 
'png' just gets passed on to tcl/tk, without tkinter knowing about 
allowed values.  I am not sure about new option names.

-- 
Terry Jan Reedy


From taleinat at gmail.com  Sun May 10 20:06:23 2015
From: taleinat at gmail.com (Tal Einat)
Date: Sun, 10 May 2015 21:06:23 +0300
Subject: [Idle-dev] issue 2704 - shell terminal functionality
In-Reply-To: <milfmc$ce0$1@ger.gmane.org>
References: <CAOFf2a3vURW2f9S96kE8h4XK1=NxSmS17XpW8BbVHtTynp7aJA@mail.gmail.com>
 <milfmc$ce0$1@ger.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <CALWZvp55ZioZMW27bjUSTnAE_RFoSGK2e99TQy5=uWFpqYuNWQ@mail.gmail.com>

I've a Mac available for testing if needed.

On Sat, May 9, 2015 at 8:21 PM, Terry Reedy <tjreedy at udel.edu> wrote:

> On 5/7/2015 4:40 PM, Sean Felipe Wolfe wrote:
>
>> https://bugs.python.org/issue2704
>> Title: IDLE: Patch to make PyShell behave more like a Terminal interface
>>
>> I'd love to see this patch
>>
>
> Which one? The last one? There are multiple patches attached to the issue,
> with multiple possible behavior changes.
>
>  committed to the main line. Do we think the
>> change is ready at this point?
>>
>
> UI changes should best be tested on each of windows, linux, and mac.
>
> --
> Terry Jan Reedy
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> IDLE-dev mailing list
> IDLE-dev at python.org
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/idle-dev
>
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From ether.joe at gmail.com  Tue May 12 19:19:55 2015
From: ether.joe at gmail.com (Sean Felipe Wolfe)
Date: Tue, 12 May 2015 10:19:55 -0700
Subject: [Idle-dev] issue 2704 - shell terminal functionality
In-Reply-To: <CALWZvp55ZioZMW27bjUSTnAE_RFoSGK2e99TQy5=uWFpqYuNWQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAOFf2a3vURW2f9S96kE8h4XK1=NxSmS17XpW8BbVHtTynp7aJA@mail.gmail.com>
 <milfmc$ce0$1@ger.gmane.org>
 <CALWZvp55ZioZMW27bjUSTnAE_RFoSGK2e99TQy5=uWFpqYuNWQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAOFf2a1iUvQ-mBTp6_GtxYcMm56Fv4QTypq1_Pfdt_+GBfb57Q@mail.gmail.com>

Ah ok. I'll examine the various patches, pick the one which seems best
at least to me, and make sure they're tested on these platforms. I've
got access to all of them so should be doable.

Taking a look at the W7 testing now ...

On Sun, May 10, 2015 at 11:06 AM, Tal Einat <taleinat at gmail.com> wrote:
> I've a Mac available for testing if needed.
>
> On Sat, May 9, 2015 at 8:21 PM, Terry Reedy <tjreedy at udel.edu> wrote:
>>
>> On 5/7/2015 4:40 PM, Sean Felipe Wolfe wrote:
>>>
>>> https://bugs.python.org/issue2704
>>> Title: IDLE: Patch to make PyShell behave more like a Terminal interface
>>>
>>> I'd love to see this patch
>>
>>
>> Which one? The last one? There are multiple patches attached to the issue,
>> with multiple possible behavior changes.
>>
>>> committed to the main line. Do we think the
>>> change is ready at this point?
>>
>>
>> UI changes should best be tested on each of windows, linux, and mac.
>>
>> --
>> Terry Jan Reedy
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> IDLE-dev mailing list
>> IDLE-dev at python.org
>> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/idle-dev
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> IDLE-dev mailing list
> IDLE-dev at python.org
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/idle-dev
>



-- 
A musician must make music, an artist must paint, a poet must write,
if he is to be ultimately at peace with himself.
- Abraham Maslow

From sarah.kuchinsky at gmail.com  Tue May 12 19:54:41 2015
From: sarah.kuchinsky at gmail.com (Sarah)
Date: Tue, 12 May 2015 10:54:41 -0700
Subject: [Idle-dev] issue 2704 - shell terminal functionality
In-Reply-To: <CAOFf2a1iUvQ-mBTp6_GtxYcMm56Fv4QTypq1_Pfdt_+GBfb57Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAOFf2a3vURW2f9S96kE8h4XK1=NxSmS17XpW8BbVHtTynp7aJA@mail.gmail.com>
 <milfmc$ce0$1@ger.gmane.org>
 <CALWZvp55ZioZMW27bjUSTnAE_RFoSGK2e99TQy5=uWFpqYuNWQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAOFf2a1iUvQ-mBTp6_GtxYcMm56Fv4QTypq1_Pfdt_+GBfb57Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4BFEC3C3-F62B-4D0A-A3B6-DA104DE45277@gmail.com>

The main thing I want is the ability to hit the up arrow key to scroll through prior commands.

I have my own version (for my own purposes) that keeps some behaviors this version here gets rid of (e.g. I don't like it when typing brings me back to the command writing area), but I believe we decided my use case was unusual enough that it didn't need to be taken into account. And I'm fine with that.


> On May 12, 2015, at 10:19 AM, Sean Felipe Wolfe <ether.joe at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> Ah ok. I'll examine the various patches, pick the one which seems best
> at least to me, and make sure they're tested on these platforms. I've
> got access to all of them so should be doable.
> 
> Taking a look at the W7 testing now ...
> 
>> On Sun, May 10, 2015 at 11:06 AM, Tal Einat <taleinat at gmail.com> wrote:
>> I've a Mac available for testing if needed.
>> 
>>> On Sat, May 9, 2015 at 8:21 PM, Terry Reedy <tjreedy at udel.edu> wrote:
>>> 
>>>> On 5/7/2015 4:40 PM, Sean Felipe Wolfe wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> https://bugs.python.org/issue2704
>>>> Title: IDLE: Patch to make PyShell behave more like a Terminal interface
>>>> 
>>>> I'd love to see this patch
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Which one? The last one? There are multiple patches attached to the issue,
>>> with multiple possible behavior changes.
>>> 
>>>> committed to the main line. Do we think the
>>>> change is ready at this point?
>>> 
>>> 
>>> UI changes should best be tested on each of windows, linux, and mac.
>>> 
>>> --
>>> Terry Jan Reedy
>>> 
>>> 
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> IDLE-dev mailing list
>>> IDLE-dev at python.org
>>> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/idle-dev
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> IDLE-dev mailing list
>> IDLE-dev at python.org
>> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/idle-dev
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> A musician must make music, an artist must paint, a poet must write,
> if he is to be ultimately at peace with himself.
> - Abraham Maslow
> _______________________________________________
> IDLE-dev mailing list
> IDLE-dev at python.org
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/idle-dev

From storchaka at gmail.com  Tue May 12 20:16:50 2015
From: storchaka at gmail.com (Serhiy Storchaka)
Date: Tue, 12 May 2015 21:16:50 +0300
Subject: [Idle-dev] Updates to the IDLE Dev Guide
In-Reply-To: <milhpe$c6b$1@ger.gmane.org>
References: <CAM=hmROARiHQD1gEgLPJ2jOgk7_5iV-3vud9N8nZSUuROBkOKQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <mgpcnm$ci7$1@ger.gmane.org>
 <CAM=hmRP=Kx5Fjbk9rX9uiqJtc2s77Bc7ro-7S6RXihWQsbVURA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAOFf2a3j3t3-oBqe44TSeOY0s_rP=D0sSMbK8FpS_R3aopFBQw@mail.gmail.com>
 <554BFE71.7070809@codebykevin.com>
 <CAOFf2a3oXDv4Y1GQSMoWyBLYozLH9oOz+R18My2bH17TKUvyow@mail.gmail.com>
 <milhpe$c6b$1@ger.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <mitg2i$33m$1@ger.gmane.org>

On 09.05.15 20:56, Terry Reedy wrote:
> Kevin, it looks like tcl.tk only distributes 8.5 and 8.6.  How long has
> it been since 8.4 was distributed?  I am wondering how long tkinter
> should keep code for pre 8.5.

8.4 is still distributed (http://tcl.tk/software/tcltk/8.4.html) but is 
not recommended. Python 3.5 dropped support of 8.4.

I'm not sure that the support of 8.3 and older in current maintained 
releases of Python is not broken. It was not tested long time.


From ether.joe at gmail.com  Tue May 12 21:18:04 2015
From: ether.joe at gmail.com (Sean Felipe Wolfe)
Date: Tue, 12 May 2015 12:18:04 -0700
Subject: [Idle-dev] issue 2704 - shell terminal functionality
In-Reply-To: <4BFEC3C3-F62B-4D0A-A3B6-DA104DE45277@gmail.com>
References: <CAOFf2a3vURW2f9S96kE8h4XK1=NxSmS17XpW8BbVHtTynp7aJA@mail.gmail.com>
 <milfmc$ce0$1@ger.gmane.org>
 <CALWZvp55ZioZMW27bjUSTnAE_RFoSGK2e99TQy5=uWFpqYuNWQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAOFf2a1iUvQ-mBTp6_GtxYcMm56Fv4QTypq1_Pfdt_+GBfb57Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <4BFEC3C3-F62B-4D0A-A3B6-DA104DE45277@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAOFf2a3r_+XZDQK8_zEmxU=0+DjO8O=hLDq1aSUt2EcZa+krqQ@mail.gmail.com>

Ok, I finished a successful test on W7. Previously I also tested this
on OSX and Lubuntu linux, so I think we can call this tested for 2.7 .

The installation steps were:
* copy Terminal.py to Lib/idlelib
* apply PyShell.py.patch .

What do you think -- could we get that patch and Terminal.py committed
to the 2.7 main line?

Thanks !

On Tue, May 12, 2015 at 10:54 AM, Sarah <sarah.kuchinsky at gmail.com> wrote:
> The main thing I want is the ability to hit the up arrow key to scroll through prior commands.
>
> I have my own version (for my own purposes) that keeps some behaviors this version here gets rid of (e.g. I don't like it when typing brings me back to the command writing area), but I believe we decided my use case was unusual enough that it didn't need to be taken into account. And I'm fine with that.
>
>
>> On May 12, 2015, at 10:19 AM, Sean Felipe Wolfe <ether.joe at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Ah ok. I'll examine the various patches, pick the one which seems best
>> at least to me, and make sure they're tested on these platforms. I've
>> got access to all of them so should be doable.
>>
>> Taking a look at the W7 testing now ...
>>
>>> On Sun, May 10, 2015 at 11:06 AM, Tal Einat <taleinat at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> I've a Mac available for testing if needed.
>>>
>>>> On Sat, May 9, 2015 at 8:21 PM, Terry Reedy <tjreedy at udel.edu> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 5/7/2015 4:40 PM, Sean Felipe Wolfe wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> https://bugs.python.org/issue2704
>>>>> Title: IDLE: Patch to make PyShell behave more like a Terminal interface
>>>>>
>>>>> I'd love to see this patch
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Which one? The last one? There are multiple patches attached to the issue,
>>>> with multiple possible behavior changes.
>>>>
>>>>> committed to the main line. Do we think the
>>>>> change is ready at this point?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> UI changes should best be tested on each of windows, linux, and mac.
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Terry Jan Reedy
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> IDLE-dev mailing list
>>>> IDLE-dev at python.org
>>>> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/idle-dev
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> IDLE-dev mailing list
>>> IDLE-dev at python.org
>>> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/idle-dev
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> A musician must make music, an artist must paint, a poet must write,
>> if he is to be ultimately at peace with himself.
>> - Abraham Maslow
>> _______________________________________________
>> IDLE-dev mailing list
>> IDLE-dev at python.org
>> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/idle-dev



-- 
A musician must make music, an artist must paint, a poet must write,
if he is to be ultimately at peace with himself.
- Abraham Maslow

From tjreedy at udel.edu  Thu May 14 02:23:24 2015
From: tjreedy at udel.edu (Terry Reedy)
Date: Wed, 13 May 2015 20:23:24 -0400
Subject: [Idle-dev] issue 2704 - shell terminal functionality
In-Reply-To: <4BFEC3C3-F62B-4D0A-A3B6-DA104DE45277@gmail.com>
References: <CAOFf2a3vURW2f9S96kE8h4XK1=NxSmS17XpW8BbVHtTynp7aJA@mail.gmail.com>
 <milfmc$ce0$1@ger.gmane.org>
 <CALWZvp55ZioZMW27bjUSTnAE_RFoSGK2e99TQy5=uWFpqYuNWQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAOFf2a1iUvQ-mBTp6_GtxYcMm56Fv4QTypq1_Pfdt_+GBfb57Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <4BFEC3C3-F62B-4D0A-A3B6-DA104DE45277@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <mj0pu4$s3v$1@ger.gmane.org>

On 5/12/2015 1:54 PM, Sarah wrote:
> The main thing I want is the ability to hit the up arrow key to
> scroll through prior commands.

That by itself is trivial: add <key-up> and <key-down> as bindings for 
history-previous and history-next.  But that disables the ability to use 
those keys to move up and down in multiline commands. Shell cannot be 
exactly the same as Terminal because it is statements rather than line 
oriented.

Shift- Control- or even Alt- Up/Down could be used*.

*Assuming not in use already -- an option to get a list of current 
binding sorted by key would be nice.

-- 
Terry Jan Reedy


From tjreedy at udel.edu  Thu May 14 04:15:06 2015
From: tjreedy at udel.edu (Terry Reedy)
Date: Wed, 13 May 2015 22:15:06 -0400
Subject: [Idle-dev] issue 2704 - shell terminal functionality
In-Reply-To: <CAOFf2a3r_+XZDQK8_zEmxU=0+DjO8O=hLDq1aSUt2EcZa+krqQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAOFf2a3vURW2f9S96kE8h4XK1=NxSmS17XpW8BbVHtTynp7aJA@mail.gmail.com>
 <milfmc$ce0$1@ger.gmane.org>
 <CALWZvp55ZioZMW27bjUSTnAE_RFoSGK2e99TQy5=uWFpqYuNWQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAOFf2a1iUvQ-mBTp6_GtxYcMm56Fv4QTypq1_Pfdt_+GBfb57Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <4BFEC3C3-F62B-4D0A-A3B6-DA104DE45277@gmail.com>
 <CAOFf2a3r_+XZDQK8_zEmxU=0+DjO8O=hLDq1aSUt2EcZa+krqQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <mj10fj$qsd$1@ger.gmane.org>

On 5/12/2015 3:18 PM, Sean Felipe Wolfe wrote:
> Ok, I finished a successful test on W7. Previously I also tested this
> on OSX and Lubuntu linux, so I think we can call this tested for 2.7 .
>
> The installation steps were:
> * copy Terminal.py to Lib/idlelib
> * apply PyShell.py.patch .
>
> What do you think -- could we get that patch and Terminal.py committed
> to the 2.7 main line?

Any change would be applied to all current versions: 2.7, 3.4, 3.5.

There are two proposed changes, and they should be considered separately.

I explained on the issue why I am not happy with the patch as is and the 
alternatives I would like to consider.

-- 
Terry Jan Reedy


From tjreedy at udel.edu  Fri May 15 02:53:20 2015
From: tjreedy at udel.edu (Terry Reedy)
Date: Thu, 14 May 2015 20:53:20 -0400
Subject: [Idle-dev] Remove Idle version from About dialog
Message-ID: <mj3g2a$mac$1@ger.gmane.org>

Help -> About IDLE displays a dialog box that contains, among other 
things, "Python version: m.n.p" and "IDLE version: m.n.p". Several years 
ago, the Idle version was different from the Python version, but that 
ended over 5 years ago.

I think 'IDLE version' should be removed.  It implies that there is 
something distinct from 'Python version', but currently there is not. 
Any opinions?

https://bugs.python.org/issue24199
includes this proposal, but it is more about deleting 
idlelib/idlever.py, which is not needed in anycase.

-- 
Terry Jan Reedy


From al at inventwithpython.com  Fri May 15 08:43:49 2015
From: al at inventwithpython.com (Al Sweigart)
Date: Thu, 14 May 2015 23:43:49 -0700
Subject: [Idle-dev] Remove Idle version from About dialog
In-Reply-To: <mj3g2a$mac$1@ger.gmane.org>
References: <mj3g2a$mac$1@ger.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <CAM=hmROQdd4=2CtLkuB4_Ww6GgkSLVStOFQ7r4HGnBMUHmbH3w@mail.gmail.com>

I kind of think the About IDLE box should be much more drastically changed:

1) Make it smaller, without the different color background and font.
2) Make the documentation link clickable and use webbrowser to open the URL.
3) Get rid of those horizontal rules.
4) Instead of opening a new text window for the "License",
"Copyright", etc. buttons, just print that text to the interactive
shell window.

Basically, it just needs to be more conventional and simplified. I can
open an issue with these and probably get around to making a patch
next week (though there are other things I'm looking into right now.)

On Thu, May 14, 2015 at 5:53 PM, Terry Reedy <tjreedy at udel.edu> wrote:
> Help -> About IDLE displays a dialog box that contains, among other things,
> "Python version: m.n.p" and "IDLE version: m.n.p". Several years ago, the
> Idle version was different from the Python version, but that ended over 5
> years ago.
>
> I think 'IDLE version' should be removed.  It implies that there is
> something distinct from 'Python version', but currently there is not. Any
> opinions?
>
> https://bugs.python.org/issue24199
> includes this proposal, but it is more about deleting idlelib/idlever.py,
> which is not needed in anycase.
>
> --
> Terry Jan Reedy
>
> _______________________________________________
> IDLE-dev mailing list
> IDLE-dev at python.org
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/idle-dev

From tjreedy at udel.edu  Sat May 16 00:12:41 2015
From: tjreedy at udel.edu (Terry Reedy)
Date: Fri, 15 May 2015 18:12:41 -0400
Subject: [Idle-dev] Remove Idle version from About dialog
In-Reply-To: <CAM=hmROQdd4=2CtLkuB4_Ww6GgkSLVStOFQ7r4HGnBMUHmbH3w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mj3g2a$mac$1@ger.gmane.org>
 <CAM=hmROQdd4=2CtLkuB4_Ww6GgkSLVStOFQ7r4HGnBMUHmbH3w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <mj5r13$v3v$1@ger.gmane.org>

On 5/15/2015 2:43 AM, Al Sweigart wrote:
> I kind of think the About IDLE box should be much more drastically changed:

This is pretty low priority, and hardly looked at.  But I looked at 
several other About boxes.

> 1) Make it smaller,

The size is typical, but has wasted space.  Including a color logo is 
typical.  I believe idlelib.icons has bigger versions of the one used on 
the title bars.  Or a .gif could be added.

> without the different color background

I think the gray (unique idea) is pretty ugly.

 > and font.

The program title is nearly always enlarged.  The version should 
immediately follow. IDLE 3.4.3, for example. The build source and date 
(from sys.version) might be added beneath

> 2) Make the documentation link clickable and use webbrowser to open the URL.

It is somewhat redundant with Idle Help on the help menu.  Maybe delete.

I would not mind if the email worked as a mailto:

> 3) Get rid of those horizontal rules.

Yes.  I would probably like to get rid of Python License and Copyright 
as redundant with Python docs.  The Python Credits is useless.  Guido 
would need to approve deletions, though.  Idle readme is (should be) all 
in the doc.  News *is* important, especially since new Idle features 
accompany Python bugfix releases. Idle Credits has not been updated in 
years. Not sure what to do.  See below

> 4) Instead of opening a new text window for the "License",
> "Copyright", etc. buttons, just print that text to the interactive
> shell window.

Nope.  Shell is for user code input and output.  Everything else goes 
elsewhere.  The text boxed should be opened 80 chars wide and about 40 
lines (taking user-configured Initial Window Size into account).

> Basically, it just needs to be more conventional and simplified. I can
> open an issue with these and probably get around to making a patch
> next week (though there are other things I'm looking into right now.)

Write a patch leaving the current six buttons, but perhaps smaller.
Reduce stuff after current dividers (to be removed) to

Uses Tk version 8.6.z
Python [License]  [Copyright]  [Credits]
Idle   [Readme]   [News]       [Credits]

Optionally increase text box size.

-- 
Terry Jan Reedy


From storchaka at gmail.com  Mon May 18 09:00:33 2015
From: storchaka at gmail.com (Serhiy Storchaka)
Date: Mon, 18 May 2015 10:00:33 +0300
Subject: [Idle-dev] Remove Idle version from About dialog
In-Reply-To: <CAM=hmROQdd4=2CtLkuB4_Ww6GgkSLVStOFQ7r4HGnBMUHmbH3w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mj3g2a$mac$1@ger.gmane.org>
 <CAM=hmROQdd4=2CtLkuB4_Ww6GgkSLVStOFQ7r4HGnBMUHmbH3w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <mjc2mh$klv$1@ger.gmane.org>

On 15.05.15 09:43, Al Sweigart wrote:
> I kind of think the About IDLE box should be much more drastically changed:
>
> 1) Make it smaller, without the different color background and font.
> 2) Make the documentation link clickable and use webbrowser to open the URL.
> 3) Get rid of those horizontal rules.
> 4) Instead of opening a new text window for the "License",
> "Copyright", etc. buttons, just print that text to the interactive
> shell window.

Some About dialog windows are multitab.



From al at inventwithpython.com  Mon May 18 23:36:36 2015
From: al at inventwithpython.com (Al Sweigart)
Date: Mon, 18 May 2015 14:36:36 -0700
Subject: [Idle-dev] Pinging commiters about patches
Message-ID: <CAM=hmRPLJ8Qrch_M+crN=9WqOUzAMtt++KzPAyx_HxkAfbRk3A@mail.gmail.com>

I've had a couple fairly small and straight-forward patches on the
issue tracker for a while, and just wanted to ping those with commit
access about them:

https://bugs.python.org/issue23977

This is a refactor for of test_delegator.py to add a case and more
specific error messages when the tests fail.

https://bugs.python.org/issue23218

This is a UI redesign for the 3 Find windows. You can compare them
visually here: https://bugs.python.org/file37759/idle_grep_compare2.png



-Al

From tjreedy at udel.edu  Tue May 19 22:48:32 2015
From: tjreedy at udel.edu (Terry Reedy)
Date: Tue, 19 May 2015 16:48:32 -0400
Subject: [Idle-dev] Pinging commiters about patches
In-Reply-To: <CAM=hmRPLJ8Qrch_M+crN=9WqOUzAMtt++KzPAyx_HxkAfbRk3A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAM=hmRPLJ8Qrch_M+crN=9WqOUzAMtt++KzPAyx_HxkAfbRk3A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <mjg7j5$1hq$1@ger.gmane.org>

On 5/18/2015 5:36 PM, Al Sweigart wrote:
> I've had a couple fairly small and straight-forward patches on the
> issue tracker for a while, and just wanted to ping those with commit
> access about them:

I revised and applied two of our patches in the last week.

> https://bugs.python.org/issue23977
>
> This is a refactor for of test_delegator.py to add a case and more
> specific error messages when the tests fail.

I will look at this when I do another round of checking test_xyz patches 
(there are about 8 at the moment).

> https://bugs.python.org/issue23218
>
> This is a UI redesign for the 3 Find windows. You can compare them
> visually here: https://bugs.python.org/file37759/idle_grep_compare2.png

Fixing find and replace bugs is a higher priority for me than cosmetic 
changes.  [close] buttons should be at the bottom where other editors 
(Notepad++) put them.  More important is whether these dialogs have to 
be modal.  Notepad++ has one non-modal box with 4 tabs, including the 3 
windows Idle has.

-- 
Terry Jan Reedy


From taleinat at gmail.com  Thu May 21 18:49:38 2015
From: taleinat at gmail.com (Tal Einat)
Date: Thu, 21 May 2015 19:49:38 +0300
Subject: [Idle-dev] Pinging commiters about patches
In-Reply-To: <mjg7j5$1hq$1@ger.gmane.org>
References: <CAM=hmRPLJ8Qrch_M+crN=9WqOUzAMtt++KzPAyx_HxkAfbRk3A@mail.gmail.com>
 <mjg7j5$1hq$1@ger.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <CALWZvp4ijK6DcCPnYScZtNmqQFrx1ymaLmVcfbuvQZEwyXibEg@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, May 19, 2015 at 11:48 PM, Terry Reedy <tjreedy at udel.edu> wrote:
>
> More important is whether these dialogs have to be modal.
> Notepad++ has one non-modal box with 4 tabs, including the
> 3 windows Idle has.

Quite a few years ago I created SearchBar, a non-modal replacement for
the find and replace windows as an IDLE extensions. Besides being
non-modal, it also had great features, including highlighting all
matches and live incremental searching. It never got accepted due to
various UI issues that came up after I no longer had time to work on
it and it didn't work properly on the newer versions of IDLE.

I did spend a *lot* of work on it, especially on optimizing the search
so that incremental search and highlighting of all matches were fast
enough. I'd love to see this eventually make it into IDLE!

Note that I didn't create a replacement for the "Find in Files"
dialog; that requires showing matches in an entirely different way,
and is still often done using a modal dialog in many modern IDEs.

If anyone would like to pursue this, I'd be happy to help!


References:

Message to idle-dev in 2009:
https://mail.python.org/pipermail/idle-dev/2009-June/002767.html

Additional discussion on a related issue about a year ago:
http://bugs.python.org/issue13630

On PyPI:
https://pypi.python.org/pypi/SearchBar/

- Tal Einat

From tjreedy at udel.edu  Fri May 22 00:07:35 2015
From: tjreedy at udel.edu (Terry Reedy)
Date: Thu, 21 May 2015 18:07:35 -0400
Subject: [Idle-dev] Pinging commiters about patches
In-Reply-To: <CALWZvp4ijK6DcCPnYScZtNmqQFrx1ymaLmVcfbuvQZEwyXibEg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAM=hmRPLJ8Qrch_M+crN=9WqOUzAMtt++KzPAyx_HxkAfbRk3A@mail.gmail.com>
 <mjg7j5$1hq$1@ger.gmane.org>
 <CALWZvp4ijK6DcCPnYScZtNmqQFrx1ymaLmVcfbuvQZEwyXibEg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <mjlkvf$gr9$1@ger.gmane.org>

On 5/21/2015 12:49 PM, Tal Einat wrote:
> On Tue, May 19, 2015 at 11:48 PM, Terry Reedy <tjreedy at udel.edu> wrote:
>>
>> More important is whether these dialogs have to be modal.
>> Notepad++ has one non-modal box with 4 tabs, including the
>> 3 windows Idle has.
>
> Quite a few years ago I created SearchBar, a non-modal replacement for
> the find and replace windows as an IDLE extensions. Besides being
> non-modal, it also had great features, including highlighting all
> matches and live incremental searching. It never got accepted due to
> various UI issues that came up after I no longer had time to work on
> it and it didn't work properly on the newer versions of IDLE.
>
> I did spend a *lot* of work on it, especially on optimizing the search
> so that incremental search and highlighting of all matches were fast
> enough. I'd love to see this eventually make it into IDLE!
>
> Note that I didn't create a replacement for the "Find in Files"
> dialog; that requires showing matches in an entirely different way,
> and is still often done using a modal dialog in many modern IDEs.
>
> If anyone would like to pursue this, I'd be happy to help!
>
>
> References:
>
> Message to idle-dev in 2009:
> https://mail.python.org/pipermail/idle-dev/2009-June/002767.html
>
> Additional discussion on a related issue about a year ago:
> http://bugs.python.org/issue13630
>
> On PyPI:
> https://pypi.python.org/pypi/SearchBar/

I added this to my notes on Find issues.

-- 
Terry Jan Reedy


From al at inventwithpython.com  Sat May 30 02:51:18 2015
From: al at inventwithpython.com (Al Sweigart)
Date: Fri, 29 May 2015 17:51:18 -0700
Subject: [Idle-dev] Informal Reddit poll on IDLE usage
Message-ID: <CAM=hmRN=M-hkAHxTFXD5qe=-iBkagmPFJtD-YNKB5wtCYk26qQ@mail.gmail.com>

I posted a (very unscientific) poll about who uses IDLE to Reddit's
/r/python and /r/learnpython (a more beginner-oriented forum)
subreddits a while back. Here are their results:


Did you use IDLE when first learning Python or use it currently?

/r/reddit:
87 votes (36%) - Yes, I used IDLE when I started with Python or I use
it currently.
153 votes (64%) - No, I used a different editor when I was starting with Python.

/r/learnpython
99 votes (40%) - Yes, I used IDLE when I started with Python or I use
it currently.
146 votes (60%) - No, I used a different editor when I was starting with Python.

https://www.reddit.com/r/Python/comments/36jhkn/poll_did_you_use_idle_when_first_learning_python/
https://www.reddit.com/r/learnpython/comments/36ilrf/did_you_use_idle_when_first_learning_python_or/

So the good news is that it looks like IDLE still has a very
significant market share of first time Python programmers using it.

-Al

From tjreedy at udel.edu  Sat May 30 03:24:03 2015
From: tjreedy at udel.edu (Terry Reedy)
Date: Fri, 29 May 2015 21:24:03 -0400
Subject: [Idle-dev] Informal Reddit poll on IDLE usage
In-Reply-To: <CAM=hmRN=M-hkAHxTFXD5qe=-iBkagmPFJtD-YNKB5wtCYk26qQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAM=hmRN=M-hkAHxTFXD5qe=-iBkagmPFJtD-YNKB5wtCYk26qQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <mkb3ga$b3l$1@ger.gmane.org>

On 5/29/2015 8:51 PM, Al Sweigart wrote:
> I posted a (very unscientific) poll about who uses IDLE to Reddit's
> /r/python and /r/learnpython (a more beginner-oriented forum)
> subreddits a while back. Here are their results:
>
>
> Did you use IDLE when first learning Python or use it currently?
>
> /r/reddit:
> 87 votes (36%) - Yes, I used IDLE when I started with Python or I use
> it currently.
> 153 votes (64%) - No, I used a different editor when I was starting with Python.
>
> /r/learnpython
> 99 votes (40%) - Yes, I used IDLE when I started with Python or I use
> it currently.
> 146 votes (60%) - No, I used a different editor when I was starting with Python.
>
> https://www.reddit.com/r/Python/comments/36jhkn/poll_did_you_use_idle_when_first_learning_python/
> https://www.reddit.com/r/learnpython/comments/36ilrf/did_you_use_idle_when_first_learning_python_or/
>
> So the good news is that it looks like IDLE still has a very
> significant market share of first time Python programmers using it.

Thank you for this. My own feeling is that 10000 users is enough to 
motivate me to continue working on Idle, and I can easily believe that 
this poll captured less than 1% of Idle users.


-- 
Terry Jan Reedy