[Idle-dev] The Future of Python

[Simon Forman]

On 2/11/14, Glyph <glyph at twistedmatrix.com> wrote:
>
> On Feb 11, 2014, at 9:06 AM, Terry Reedy <tjreedy at udel.edu> wrote:
>
>> On 2/10/2014 6:07 PM, Glyph wrote:
>>
>>> And let me make a halfhearted attempt to bring this on-topic: it would
>>> be absolutely /amazing/ if IDLE actually had a plugin to allow you to
>>> write some HTML and some CSS and stuff so that new users could easily
>>> get up and running with something that looks "real" to modern students
>>> (i.e. a web page that they can share, not just some turtle graphics on a
>>> canvas).
>>
>> I need more information to know what you are suggesting.
>>
>> What do you see as the relation between Python and html that Idle should
>> be html aware rather than C aware?
>
> It's not so mucha bout the relationship between Python and HTML, but rather
> between HTML and the average prospective student.  HTML is a terrible
> language, CSS is worse, but HTML+CSS is where the students "live" -
> basically everyone in the world is familiar with web pages at this point in
> history, so allowing them to create visual (or textual, for those with
> vision impairment, who will still be familiar with web browsers!)
> experiences that directly correspond to things they're familiar with will
> drive home the relevance of "CP4E".
>
>> Why should one edit html in Idle rather that in one of the many Html
>> Editor programs?
>
> Why should one edit Python in Idle, for that matter? ;-)  For Python it
> integrates the module editing with an interactive shell; the same could be
> true for HTML.
>
>> What would be Idle's competitive advantage in a crowded field?
>
> Integration.  Idle is positioned as a simple, effective editor for learners,
> and smoothing the somewhat bumpy road between Python and the mess of browser
> technologies (HTML/CSS/JS/how do I run a server/how do I get a database
> created) would make it possible for learners to create whole systems that
> are directly useful and relevant to them.
>
> I'm not suggesting that IDLE become a sophisticated HTML workflow tool for
> teams or anything like that - just that it have a basic, opinionated
> workflow available to ease the transition from simple input-output text
> programs to simple web-based things.  Let me be clear: to make this a
> complete package, you'd need to have better feedback than I'm able to
> provide from a real educator.
>
>> Is this idea predicated on having a means to run a subset of Python 3 in a
>> browser?
>
> Not entirely; one still might be able to do something interesting and
> interactive by having Idle run a web server and having a local web browser
> (or HTML view, if such a thing were possible) and having server-side Python
> generate some HTML.
>
>> Note 1: it would be trivial to have Idle recognize .xyz files, but it is
>> currently a python-specific and non-python general text editor.
>
> What is a '.xyz' file?
>
>> Note 2: I presume, but do not know, that an extension could effectively
>> subclass EditorWindow and override some of the methods.
>>
>> One can edit html now in an editor window as plain text. What additional
>> behaviors would you add if Idle recognized .html?  Syntax highlight
>> embedded Python (as already requested on the tracker)?
>
> Yup, that would be great.
>
>> Syntax highlight html constructs (which would require an html parser)?
>
> Yes, this would also be useful.  html5lib is one simple 'pip install'
> away...
>
>> 'Run' the file (F5) in a browser rather than in a shell?  (The existing
>> webbrowser module would make this easy.)
>
> That would be good too.
>
>> What would be 'amazing' is a way to have a form displayed in either by
>> python (tkinter) or a browser, or drawings and even animation displayed on
>> either a tkinter Canvas or the HTML5 equivalent.
>
> +1 to that as well.
>
> Tempting as it is to talk about the stuff related to extensions that was a
> bit afield of my point so I'll refrain ;-).
>
> -g



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