From interstar at gmail.com  Wed Feb  5 21:36:44 2014
From: interstar at gmail.com (phil jones)
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2014 18:36:44 -0200
Subject: [Idle-dev] The Future of Python
Message-ID: <CAP97HnnqoGBKqApfcWvbwyN6LzmGmCCs7rQHTJpECOMSGu7gwA@mail.gmail.com>

Interesting video : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d1a4Jbjc-vU

From guido at python.org  Thu Feb  6 18:19:44 2014
From: guido at python.org (Guido van Rossum)
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 2014 09:19:44 -0800
Subject: [Idle-dev] The Future of Python
In-Reply-To: <CAP97HnnqoGBKqApfcWvbwyN6LzmGmCCs7rQHTJpECOMSGu7gwA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAP97HnnqoGBKqApfcWvbwyN6LzmGmCCs7rQHTJpECOMSGu7gwA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAP7+vJJTSjCkNWOfbsUY5C62N-hUv9SGEf9PrBvXpF8Jc336dg@mail.gmail.com>

Not just interesting. Super inspiring. I almost cried, and was going to
propose to give my keynote slot at PyCon away to Jessica, but she's already
got her own slot. :-) Awesome!


On Wed, Feb 5, 2014 at 12:36 PM, phil jones <interstar at gmail.com> wrote:

> Interesting video : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d1a4Jbjc-vU
> _______________________________________________
> IDLE-dev mailing list
> IDLE-dev at python.org
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/idle-dev
>



-- 
--Guido van Rossum (python.org/~guido)
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From Bruce_Sherwood at ncsu.edu  Thu Feb  6 19:31:45 2014
From: Bruce_Sherwood at ncsu.edu (Bruce Sherwood)
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 2014 11:31:45 -0700
Subject: [Idle-dev] The Future of Python
In-Reply-To: <CAP7+vJJTSjCkNWOfbsUY5C62N-hUv9SGEf9PrBvXpF8Jc336dg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAP97HnnqoGBKqApfcWvbwyN6LzmGmCCs7rQHTJpECOMSGu7gwA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAP7+vJJTSjCkNWOfbsUY5C62N-hUv9SGEf9PrBvXpF8Jc336dg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAFDG03gDxcjaxFUvM-PmU6sBH4YPb3mo_-kG=k=-n3zaP+s6sw@mail.gmail.com>

I was surprised that in talking about the future of Python Jessica didn't
touch on what may be really crucial, which is the importance of being able
to use Python in client-side browser programming. Running in a browser is
of rapidly increasing importance and Python could easily get left behind.
There exist multiple projects whose goal is to be able to compile Python to
JavaScript to address this issue. It looks to me like Brython may be the
best bet, in that it seems to be an active development with a small but
growing community of interested parties. What do you think about this,
Guido?

I'll mention that with the aid of Steve Spicklemire VPython has been
converted to be based on wxPython, which was vital in order to get off
Carbon and onto Cocoa on the Mac, and which also makes it possible to use
wxPython widgets with VPython 3D canvases. I'm happy to report that in the
last six months there were nearly 50,000 downloads of VPython, and that
it's now featured in four (soon to be five) computational physics textbooks.

Inspired by VPython, with a big initial push from David Scherer, the
originator of VPython, I'm developing GlowScript (glowscript.org) where you
can write VPython-like 3D animations using WebGL, writing in JavaScript or
CoffeeScript. A minimal program is the single-line program

box()

This program places a WebGL canvas in the window, displays a cube in the
window, creates lights to illuminate the scene, places the camera so that
the cube fills the window, and enables mouse interactions to zoom and
rotate. You can of course control all of these elements, but there are lots
of good defaults to get going easily. Needless to say writing WebGL
programs with other tools is vastly more difficult.

It's already the case that it's very nice to be able to send a URL in an
email and have the recipient click that link to see a 3D animation rather
than asking them to install Python and VPython. Here's a simple example
that will run in WebGL-enabled browsers:

http://www.glowscript.org/#/user/GlowScriptDemos/folder/Examples/program/Bounce-CoffeeScript

Many more demo programs are available at glowscript.org.

However: I don't like the syntax of JavaScript, especially for novice
programmers, and even though CoffeeScript is more Pythonesque its syntax
and use of white space is kind of quirky and, I judge, not good for
novices. I would love to enable Python as one of the languages (indeed the
major language) for novices and experts to write GlowScript programs.
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From guido at python.org  Thu Feb  6 20:31:48 2014
From: guido at python.org (Guido van Rossum)
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 2014 11:31:48 -0800
Subject: [Idle-dev] The Future of Python
In-Reply-To: <CAFDG03gDxcjaxFUvM-PmU6sBH4YPb3mo_-kG=k=-n3zaP+s6sw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAP97HnnqoGBKqApfcWvbwyN6LzmGmCCs7rQHTJpECOMSGu7gwA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAP7+vJJTSjCkNWOfbsUY5C62N-hUv9SGEf9PrBvXpF8Jc336dg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAFDG03gDxcjaxFUvM-PmU6sBH4YPb3mo_-kG=k=-n3zaP+s6sw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAP7+vJJ4uuTXAkAMhu+SvSgT5RkPDFtWOQef3UMGHS7tigGT8A@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Feb 6, 2014 at 10:31 AM, Bruce Sherwood <Bruce_Sherwood at ncsu.edu>wrote:

> I was surprised that in talking about the future of Python Jessica didn't
> touch on what may be really crucial, which is the importance of being able
> to use Python in client-side browser programming. Running in a browser is
> of rapidly increasing importance and Python could easily get left behind.
> There exist multiple projects whose goal is to be able to compile Python to
> JavaScript to address this issue. It looks to me like Brython may be the
> best bet, in that it seems to be an active development with a small but
> growing community of interested parties. What do you think about this,
> Guido?
>

I think this is a lost cause. Many very smart people have broken their
heads against this particular wall.


> I'll mention that with the aid of Steve Spicklemire VPython has been
> converted to be based on wxPython, which was vital in order to get off
> Carbon and onto Cocoa on the Mac, and which also makes it possible to use
> wxPython widgets with VPython 3D canvases. I'm happy to report that in the
> last six months there were nearly 50,000 downloads of VPython, and that
> it's now featured in four (soon to be five) computational physics textbooks.
>

That's awesome!


> Inspired by VPython, with a big initial push from David Scherer, the
> originator of VPython, I'm developing GlowScript (glowscript.org) where
> you can write VPython-like 3D animations using WebGL, writing in JavaScript
> or CoffeeScript. A minimal program is the single-line program
>
> box()
>
> This program places a WebGL canvas in the window, displays a cube in the
> window, creates lights to illuminate the scene, places the camera so that
> the cube fills the window, and enables mouse interactions to zoom and
> rotate. You can of course control all of these elements, but there are lots
> of good defaults to get going easily. Needless to say writing WebGL
> programs with other tools is vastly more difficult.
>
> It's already the case that it's very nice to be able to send a URL in an
> email and have the recipient click that link to see a 3D animation rather
> than asking them to install Python and VPython. Here's a simple example
> that will run in WebGL-enabled browsers:
>
>
> http://www.glowscript.org/#/user/GlowScriptDemos/folder/Examples/program/Bounce-CoffeeScript
>
> Many more demo programs are available at glowscript.org.
>
> However: I don't like the syntax of JavaScript, especially for novice
> programmers, and even though CoffeeScript is more Pythonesque its syntax
> and use of white space is kind of quirky and, I judge, not good for
> novices. I would love to enable Python as one of the languages (indeed the
> major language) for novices and experts to write GlowScript programs.
>

Agreed that CoffeeScript is not newbie-friendly. But browsers have been
even more unfriendly to running Python than mobile platforms. At least for
the latter we have Kivy.

-- 
--Guido van Rossum (python.org/~guido)
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From ether.joe at gmail.com  Fri Feb  7 08:57:59 2014
From: ether.joe at gmail.com (Sean Felipe Wolfe)
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 2014 23:57:59 -0800
Subject: [Idle-dev] The Future of Python
In-Reply-To: <CAP7+vJJ4uuTXAkAMhu+SvSgT5RkPDFtWOQef3UMGHS7tigGT8A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAP97HnnqoGBKqApfcWvbwyN6LzmGmCCs7rQHTJpECOMSGu7gwA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAP7+vJJTSjCkNWOfbsUY5C62N-hUv9SGEf9PrBvXpF8Jc336dg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAFDG03gDxcjaxFUvM-PmU6sBH4YPb3mo_-kG=k=-n3zaP+s6sw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAP7+vJJ4uuTXAkAMhu+SvSgT5RkPDFtWOQef3UMGHS7tigGT8A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAOFf2a2D=t39P+hPEwLN+zxiG_Uba5JT=Y7wauc5QM_8CDOLkA@mail.gmail.com>

IDLE!!!!!

We are starting up a partnership with a community center here in
Oakland, CA, starting kids up with programmming. We're starting with
Logo (yay, Logo!) and transitioning to Python with the turtle module.
We've been using IDLE on Linux and also a Raspberry Pi. So far, so
good!

I for one am ecstatic about IDLE. It has a warm place in my heart. I
should set aside a few hours a week to help out with it.

Anyhow great video, thanks for the link!

On Thu, Feb 6, 2014 at 11:31 AM, Guido van Rossum <guido at python.org> wrote:
> On Thu, Feb 6, 2014 at 10:31 AM, Bruce Sherwood <Bruce_Sherwood at ncsu.edu>
> wrote:
>>
>> I was surprised that in talking about the future of Python Jessica didn't
>> touch on what may be really crucial, which is the importance of being able
>> to use Python in client-side browser programming. Running in a browser is of
>> rapidly increasing importance and Python could easily get left behind. There
>> exist multiple projects whose goal is to be able to compile Python to
>> JavaScript to address this issue. It looks to me like Brython may be the
>> best bet, in that it seems to be an active development with a small but
>> growing community of interested parties. What do you think about this,
>> Guido?
>
>
> I think this is a lost cause. Many very smart people have broken their heads
> against this particular wall.
>
>>
>> I'll mention that with the aid of Steve Spicklemire VPython has been
>> converted to be based on wxPython, which was vital in order to get off
>> Carbon and onto Cocoa on the Mac, and which also makes it possible to use
>> wxPython widgets with VPython 3D canvases. I'm happy to report that in the
>> last six months there were nearly 50,000 downloads of VPython, and that it's
>> now featured in four (soon to be five) computational physics textbooks.
>
>
> That's awesome!
>
>>
>> Inspired by VPython, with a big initial push from David Scherer, the
>> originator of VPython, I'm developing GlowScript (glowscript.org) where you
>> can write VPython-like 3D animations using WebGL, writing in JavaScript or
>> CoffeeScript. A minimal program is the single-line program
>>
>> box()
>>
>> This program places a WebGL canvas in the window, displays a cube in the
>> window, creates lights to illuminate the scene, places the camera so that
>> the cube fills the window, and enables mouse interactions to zoom and
>> rotate. You can of course control all of these elements, but there are lots
>> of good defaults to get going easily. Needless to say writing WebGL programs
>> with other tools is vastly more difficult.
>>
>> It's already the case that it's very nice to be able to send a URL in an
>> email and have the recipient click that link to see a 3D animation rather
>> than asking them to install Python and VPython. Here's a simple example that
>> will run in WebGL-enabled browsers:
>>
>>
>> http://www.glowscript.org/#/user/GlowScriptDemos/folder/Examples/program/Bounce-CoffeeScript
>>
>> Many more demo programs are available at glowscript.org.
>>
>> However: I don't like the syntax of JavaScript, especially for novice
>> programmers, and even though CoffeeScript is more Pythonesque its syntax and
>> use of white space is kind of quirky and, I judge, not good for novices. I
>> would love to enable Python as one of the languages (indeed the major
>> language) for novices and experts to write GlowScript programs.
>
>
> Agreed that CoffeeScript is not newbie-friendly. But browsers have been even
> more unfriendly to running Python than mobile platforms. At least for the
> latter we have Kivy.
>
> --
> --Guido van Rossum (python.org/~guido)
>
> _______________________________________________
> IDLE-dev mailing list
> IDLE-dev at python.org
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/idle-dev
>



-- 
A musician must make music, an artist must paint, a poet must write,
if he is to be ultimately at peace with himself.
- Abraham Maslow

From interstar at gmail.com  Sat Feb  8 00:40:03 2014
From: interstar at gmail.com (phil jones)
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 2014 21:40:03 -0200
Subject: [Idle-dev] The Future of Python
In-Reply-To: <CAOFf2a2D=t39P+hPEwLN+zxiG_Uba5JT=Y7wauc5QM_8CDOLkA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAP97HnnqoGBKqApfcWvbwyN6LzmGmCCs7rQHTJpECOMSGu7gwA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAP7+vJJTSjCkNWOfbsUY5C62N-hUv9SGEf9PrBvXpF8Jc336dg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAFDG03gDxcjaxFUvM-PmU6sBH4YPb3mo_-kG=k=-n3zaP+s6sw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAP7+vJJ4uuTXAkAMhu+SvSgT5RkPDFtWOQef3UMGHS7tigGT8A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAOFf2a2D=t39P+hPEwLN+zxiG_Uba5JT=Y7wauc5QM_8CDOLkA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAP97Hnm-+1xbu57y6wRtqcWSUjd-YKy5HLo2Xy4NhkCTfKALXA@mail.gmail.com>

Just putting a couple of thoughts / questions out to the community here :

The impression I get about IDLE is that it's a bit of an
embarrassment. (Possibly because of tk). Everyone accepts it's
substandard. But no-one seems to want it to grow into something else
(eg. a full IDE, something more like PythonCard / VisualBasic /
Processing). Maybe IDLE is deprecated and the hope is it will die
quietly. But if that IS the plan, then it would be nice to have it
stated somewhere so that we can stop thinking of it as the "official"
default IDE for Python and periodically wondering whether we should
try to resuscitate it. And maybe focus our contributions on a project
like VPython etc. instead.

Bluntly, is IDLE meant to be getting good or to be going away? I don't
know. And I can't find out by reading python.org or this mailing list.

It feels like this ambiguity isn't only bad for IDLE, but might be
lying behind the issues Jessica refers to. As well as a python
programmer, I'm a digital artist so I've been doing a fair amount with
Processing in the last few years. It's incredible to me that a
language as officiously unpleasant and hostile to beginners as Java
has managed to become the preferred choice for non-technical artists
who want to do cool stuff with graphics, sound and physical computing.

How did that happen? It's a niche that would have been perfect for
Python. And should have been well within its grasp. As far as I can
tell, Processing's success is a combination of beginner-oriented IDE
and comprehensive library in a single convenient download. Those are
two virtues that Python has been able to boast for 15 years. And yet
... somehow ... the package didn't quite add up. IDLE wasn't quite
straight-forward enough, and Python's included batteries didn't
include OpenGL, which has become the standard for all the cool
graphics.

When I've suggested on IDLE-dev that IDLE could evolve to be more like
Processing, that idea has been generally rejected on the grounds that
IDLE is meant to be a "basic editor". But what's a basic editor? One
which never evolves, innovates or adds new functionality? No one is
going to be motivated to work on IDLE if it's not allowed to grow into
anything new.

At the same time, Jessica asks for Python to be a good beginner's
development environment, straight out of the box. If IDLE isn't the
solution to that requirement then what is?

That seems the challenge here : either IDLE gets good for beginners
who want to do cool stuff. Which means maybe taking inspiration from
Processing. Or HyperCard. Or really exotic things like LightTable
(http://www.chris-granger.com/lighttable/) Or perhaps the python
community and especially the python.org site, should just drop it and
start promoting (and offering easy beginner downloads for)
comprehensive packages like VPython, IPython, Enthought etc.

Phil



On 7 February 2014 05:57, Sean Felipe Wolfe <ether.joe at gmail.com> wrote:
> IDLE!!!!!
>
> We are starting up a partnership with a community center here in
> Oakland, CA, starting kids up with programmming. We're starting with
> Logo (yay, Logo!) and transitioning to Python with the turtle module.
> We've been using IDLE on Linux and also a Raspberry Pi. So far, so
> good!
>
> I for one am ecstatic about IDLE. It has a warm place in my heart. I
> should set aside a few hours a week to help out with it.
>
> Anyhow great video, thanks for the link!
>
> On Thu, Feb 6, 2014 at 11:31 AM, Guido van Rossum <guido at python.org> wrote:
>> On Thu, Feb 6, 2014 at 10:31 AM, Bruce Sherwood <Bruce_Sherwood at ncsu.edu>
>> wrote:
>>>
>>> I was surprised that in talking about the future of Python Jessica didn't
>>> touch on what may be really crucial, which is the importance of being able
>>> to use Python in client-side browser programming. Running in a browser is of
>>> rapidly increasing importance and Python could easily get left behind. There
>>> exist multiple projects whose goal is to be able to compile Python to
>>> JavaScript to address this issue. It looks to me like Brython may be the
>>> best bet, in that it seems to be an active development with a small but
>>> growing community of interested parties. What do you think about this,
>>> Guido?
>>
>>
>> I think this is a lost cause. Many very smart people have broken their heads
>> against this particular wall.
>>
>>>
>>> I'll mention that with the aid of Steve Spicklemire VPython has been
>>> converted to be based on wxPython, which was vital in order to get off
>>> Carbon and onto Cocoa on the Mac, and which also makes it possible to use
>>> wxPython widgets with VPython 3D canvases. I'm happy to report that in the
>>> last six months there were nearly 50,000 downloads of VPython, and that it's
>>> now featured in four (soon to be five) computational physics textbooks.
>>
>>
>> That's awesome!
>>
>>>
>>> Inspired by VPython, with a big initial push from David Scherer, the
>>> originator of VPython, I'm developing GlowScript (glowscript.org) where you
>>> can write VPython-like 3D animations using WebGL, writing in JavaScript or
>>> CoffeeScript. A minimal program is the single-line program
>>>
>>> box()
>>>
>>> This program places a WebGL canvas in the window, displays a cube in the
>>> window, creates lights to illuminate the scene, places the camera so that
>>> the cube fills the window, and enables mouse interactions to zoom and
>>> rotate. You can of course control all of these elements, but there are lots
>>> of good defaults to get going easily. Needless to say writing WebGL programs
>>> with other tools is vastly more difficult.
>>>
>>> It's already the case that it's very nice to be able to send a URL in an
>>> email and have the recipient click that link to see a 3D animation rather
>>> than asking them to install Python and VPython. Here's a simple example that
>>> will run in WebGL-enabled browsers:
>>>
>>>
>>> http://www.glowscript.org/#/user/GlowScriptDemos/folder/Examples/program/Bounce-CoffeeScript
>>>
>>> Many more demo programs are available at glowscript.org.
>>>
>>> However: I don't like the syntax of JavaScript, especially for novice
>>> programmers, and even though CoffeeScript is more Pythonesque its syntax and
>>> use of white space is kind of quirky and, I judge, not good for novices. I
>>> would love to enable Python as one of the languages (indeed the major
>>> language) for novices and experts to write GlowScript programs.
>>
>>
>> Agreed that CoffeeScript is not newbie-friendly. But browsers have been even
>> more unfriendly to running Python than mobile platforms. At least for the
>> latter we have Kivy.
>>
>> --
>> --Guido van Rossum (python.org/~guido)
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> IDLE-dev mailing list
>> IDLE-dev at python.org
>> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/idle-dev
>>
>
>
>
> --
> A musician must make music, an artist must paint, a poet must write,
> if he is to be ultimately at peace with himself.
> - Abraham Maslow
> _______________________________________________
> IDLE-dev mailing list
> IDLE-dev at python.org
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/idle-dev

From gdsimoes87 at gmail.com  Sat Feb  8 01:39:07 2014
From: gdsimoes87 at gmail.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Guilherme_Sim=F5es?=)
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 2014 22:39:07 -0200
Subject: [Idle-dev] The Future of Python
In-Reply-To: <CAP97Hnm-+1xbu57y6wRtqcWSUjd-YKy5HLo2Xy4NhkCTfKALXA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAP97HnnqoGBKqApfcWvbwyN6LzmGmCCs7rQHTJpECOMSGu7gwA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAP7+vJJTSjCkNWOfbsUY5C62N-hUv9SGEf9PrBvXpF8Jc336dg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAFDG03gDxcjaxFUvM-PmU6sBH4YPb3mo_-kG=k=-n3zaP+s6sw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAP7+vJJ4uuTXAkAMhu+SvSgT5RkPDFtWOQef3UMGHS7tigGT8A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAOFf2a2D=t39P+hPEwLN+zxiG_Uba5JT=Y7wauc5QM_8CDOLkA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAP97Hnm-+1xbu57y6wRtqcWSUjd-YKy5HLo2Xy4NhkCTfKALXA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAK=RhshotprpDOgq4aMWszhP-f25bGCn4d3P=OMXtus5sHJ52g@mail.gmail.com>

I tried to improve IDLE for a little while and I believe the main problem
is tk. It's a source of a lot of bugs and some weird behavior.


On Fri, Feb 7, 2014 at 9:40 PM, phil jones <interstar at gmail.com> wrote:

> Just putting a couple of thoughts / questions out to the community here :
>
> The impression I get about IDLE is that it's a bit of an
> embarrassment. (Possibly because of tk). Everyone accepts it's
> substandard. But no-one seems to want it to grow into something else
> (eg. a full IDE, something more like PythonCard / VisualBasic /
> Processing). Maybe IDLE is deprecated and the hope is it will die
> quietly. But if that IS the plan, then it would be nice to have it
> stated somewhere so that we can stop thinking of it as the "official"
> default IDE for Python and periodically wondering whether we should
> try to resuscitate it. And maybe focus our contributions on a project
> like VPython etc. instead.
>
> Bluntly, is IDLE meant to be getting good or to be going away? I don't
> know. And I can't find out by reading python.org or this mailing list.
>
> It feels like this ambiguity isn't only bad for IDLE, but might be
> lying behind the issues Jessica refers to. As well as a python
> programmer, I'm a digital artist so I've been doing a fair amount with
> Processing in the last few years. It's incredible to me that a
> language as officiously unpleasant and hostile to beginners as Java
> has managed to become the preferred choice for non-technical artists
> who want to do cool stuff with graphics, sound and physical computing.
>
> How did that happen? It's a niche that would have been perfect for
> Python. And should have been well within its grasp. As far as I can
> tell, Processing's success is a combination of beginner-oriented IDE
> and comprehensive library in a single convenient download. Those are
> two virtues that Python has been able to boast for 15 years. And yet
> ... somehow ... the package didn't quite add up. IDLE wasn't quite
> straight-forward enough, and Python's included batteries didn't
> include OpenGL, which has become the standard for all the cool
> graphics.
>
> When I've suggested on IDLE-dev that IDLE could evolve to be more like
> Processing, that idea has been generally rejected on the grounds that
> IDLE is meant to be a "basic editor". But what's a basic editor? One
> which never evolves, innovates or adds new functionality? No one is
> going to be motivated to work on IDLE if it's not allowed to grow into
> anything new.
>
> At the same time, Jessica asks for Python to be a good beginner's
> development environment, straight out of the box. If IDLE isn't the
> solution to that requirement then what is?
>
> That seems the challenge here : either IDLE gets good for beginners
> who want to do cool stuff. Which means maybe taking inspiration from
> Processing. Or HyperCard. Or really exotic things like LightTable
> (http://www.chris-granger.com/lighttable/) Or perhaps the python
> community and especially the python.org site, should just drop it and
> start promoting (and offering easy beginner downloads for)
> comprehensive packages like VPython, IPython, Enthought etc.
>
> Phil
>
>
>
> On 7 February 2014 05:57, Sean Felipe Wolfe <ether.joe at gmail.com> wrote:
> > IDLE!!!!!
> >
> > We are starting up a partnership with a community center here in
> > Oakland, CA, starting kids up with programmming. We're starting with
> > Logo (yay, Logo!) and transitioning to Python with the turtle module.
> > We've been using IDLE on Linux and also a Raspberry Pi. So far, so
> > good!
> >
> > I for one am ecstatic about IDLE. It has a warm place in my heart. I
> > should set aside a few hours a week to help out with it.
> >
> > Anyhow great video, thanks for the link!
> >
> > On Thu, Feb 6, 2014 at 11:31 AM, Guido van Rossum <guido at python.org>
> wrote:
> >> On Thu, Feb 6, 2014 at 10:31 AM, Bruce Sherwood <
> Bruce_Sherwood at ncsu.edu>
> >> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> I was surprised that in talking about the future of Python Jessica
> didn't
> >>> touch on what may be really crucial, which is the importance of being
> able
> >>> to use Python in client-side browser programming. Running in a browser
> is of
> >>> rapidly increasing importance and Python could easily get left behind.
> There
> >>> exist multiple projects whose goal is to be able to compile Python to
> >>> JavaScript to address this issue. It looks to me like Brython may be
> the
> >>> best bet, in that it seems to be an active development with a small but
> >>> growing community of interested parties. What do you think about this,
> >>> Guido?
> >>
> >>
> >> I think this is a lost cause. Many very smart people have broken their
> heads
> >> against this particular wall.
> >>
> >>>
> >>> I'll mention that with the aid of Steve Spicklemire VPython has been
> >>> converted to be based on wxPython, which was vital in order to get off
> >>> Carbon and onto Cocoa on the Mac, and which also makes it possible to
> use
> >>> wxPython widgets with VPython 3D canvases. I'm happy to report that in
> the
> >>> last six months there were nearly 50,000 downloads of VPython, and
> that it's
> >>> now featured in four (soon to be five) computational physics textbooks.
> >>
> >>
> >> That's awesome!
> >>
> >>>
> >>> Inspired by VPython, with a big initial push from David Scherer, the
> >>> originator of VPython, I'm developing GlowScript (glowscript.org)
> where you
> >>> can write VPython-like 3D animations using WebGL, writing in
> JavaScript or
> >>> CoffeeScript. A minimal program is the single-line program
> >>>
> >>> box()
> >>>
> >>> This program places a WebGL canvas in the window, displays a cube in
> the
> >>> window, creates lights to illuminate the scene, places the camera so
> that
> >>> the cube fills the window, and enables mouse interactions to zoom and
> >>> rotate. You can of course control all of these elements, but there are
> lots
> >>> of good defaults to get going easily. Needless to say writing WebGL
> programs
> >>> with other tools is vastly more difficult.
> >>>
> >>> It's already the case that it's very nice to be able to send a URL in
> an
> >>> email and have the recipient click that link to see a 3D animation
> rather
> >>> than asking them to install Python and VPython. Here's a simple
> example that
> >>> will run in WebGL-enabled browsers:
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> http://www.glowscript.org/#/user/GlowScriptDemos/folder/Examples/program/Bounce-CoffeeScript
> >>>
> >>> Many more demo programs are available at glowscript.org.
> >>>
> >>> However: I don't like the syntax of JavaScript, especially for novice
> >>> programmers, and even though CoffeeScript is more Pythonesque its
> syntax and
> >>> use of white space is kind of quirky and, I judge, not good for
> novices. I
> >>> would love to enable Python as one of the languages (indeed the major
> >>> language) for novices and experts to write GlowScript programs.
> >>
> >>
> >> Agreed that CoffeeScript is not newbie-friendly. But browsers have been
> even
> >> more unfriendly to running Python than mobile platforms. At least for
> the
> >> latter we have Kivy.
> >>
> >> --
> >> --Guido van Rossum (python.org/~guido)
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> IDLE-dev mailing list
> >> IDLE-dev at python.org
> >> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/idle-dev
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > A musician must make music, an artist must paint, a poet must write,
> > if he is to be ultimately at peace with himself.
> > - Abraham Maslow
> > _______________________________________________
> > IDLE-dev mailing list
> > IDLE-dev at python.org
> > https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/idle-dev
> _______________________________________________
> IDLE-dev mailing list
> IDLE-dev at python.org
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/idle-dev
>
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From forman.simon at gmail.com  Sat Feb  8 03:12:22 2014
From: forman.simon at gmail.com (Simon Forman)
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 2014 18:12:22 -0800
Subject: [Idle-dev] The Future of Python
In-Reply-To: <CAP97Hnm-+1xbu57y6wRtqcWSUjd-YKy5HLo2Xy4NhkCTfKALXA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAP97HnnqoGBKqApfcWvbwyN6LzmGmCCs7rQHTJpECOMSGu7gwA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAP7+vJJTSjCkNWOfbsUY5C62N-hUv9SGEf9PrBvXpF8Jc336dg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAFDG03gDxcjaxFUvM-PmU6sBH4YPb3mo_-kG=k=-n3zaP+s6sw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAP7+vJJ4uuTXAkAMhu+SvSgT5RkPDFtWOQef3UMGHS7tigGT8A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAOFf2a2D=t39P+hPEwLN+zxiG_Uba5JT=Y7wauc5QM_8CDOLkA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAP97Hnm-+1xbu57y6wRtqcWSUjd-YKy5HLo2Xy4NhkCTfKALXA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAG08Ry+kxhBS30zqawxR6m=zNqZ=8th8Eu826_1MKhWJaRpc4w@mail.gmail.com>

My $0.02 regarding IDLE (and Tk):

I am a professional programmer who has been programming primarily in
Python (Thank you GVR et. al.!) for nearly a decade. IDLE has been and
remains the only editor I want to use.

It has its warts and idiosyncrasies, there are things I would love to
see (IPython integration is awesome!)  But every other editor I've
ever tried (and I've tried pretty much all of them) has left me cold.

IDLE is not an embarrassment, it is not substandard, and it is
certainly not deprecated.  It doesn't need to be grown into "a full
IDE".

Thank you.

(Also, TCL/Tk is awesome.)

~Simon


On 2/7/14, phil jones <interstar at gmail.com> wrote:
> Just putting a couple of thoughts / questions out to the community here :
>
> The impression I get about IDLE is that it's a bit of an
> embarrassment. (Possibly because of tk). Everyone accepts it's
> substandard. But no-one seems to want it to grow into something else
> (eg. a full IDE, something more like PythonCard / VisualBasic /
> Processing). Maybe IDLE is deprecated and the hope is it will die
> quietly. But if that IS the plan, then it would be nice to have it
> stated somewhere so that we can stop thinking of it as the "official"
> default IDE for Python and periodically wondering whether we should
> try to resuscitate it. And maybe focus our contributions on a project
> like VPython etc. instead.
>
> Bluntly, is IDLE meant to be getting good or to be going away? I don't
> know. And I can't find out by reading python.org or this mailing list.
>
> It feels like this ambiguity isn't only bad for IDLE, but might be
> lying behind the issues Jessica refers to. As well as a python
> programmer, I'm a digital artist so I've been doing a fair amount with
> Processing in the last few years. It's incredible to me that a
> language as officiously unpleasant and hostile to beginners as Java
> has managed to become the preferred choice for non-technical artists
> who want to do cool stuff with graphics, sound and physical computing.
>
> How did that happen? It's a niche that would have been perfect for
> Python. And should have been well within its grasp. As far as I can
> tell, Processing's success is a combination of beginner-oriented IDE
> and comprehensive library in a single convenient download. Those are
> two virtues that Python has been able to boast for 15 years. And yet
> ... somehow ... the package didn't quite add up. IDLE wasn't quite
> straight-forward enough, and Python's included batteries didn't
> include OpenGL, which has become the standard for all the cool
> graphics.
>
> When I've suggested on IDLE-dev that IDLE could evolve to be more like
> Processing, that idea has been generally rejected on the grounds that
> IDLE is meant to be a "basic editor". But what's a basic editor? One
> which never evolves, innovates or adds new functionality? No one is
> going to be motivated to work on IDLE if it's not allowed to grow into
> anything new.
>
> At the same time, Jessica asks for Python to be a good beginner's
> development environment, straight out of the box. If IDLE isn't the
> solution to that requirement then what is?
>
> That seems the challenge here : either IDLE gets good for beginners
> who want to do cool stuff. Which means maybe taking inspiration from
> Processing. Or HyperCard. Or really exotic things like LightTable
> (http://www.chris-granger.com/lighttable/) Or perhaps the python
> community and especially the python.org site, should just drop it and
> start promoting (and offering easy beginner downloads for)
> comprehensive packages like VPython, IPython, Enthought etc.
>
> Phil
>
>
>
> On 7 February 2014 05:57, Sean Felipe Wolfe <ether.joe at gmail.com> wrote:
>> IDLE!!!!!
>>
>> We are starting up a partnership with a community center here in
>> Oakland, CA, starting kids up with programmming. We're starting with
>> Logo (yay, Logo!) and transitioning to Python with the turtle module.
>> We've been using IDLE on Linux and also a Raspberry Pi. So far, so
>> good!
>>
>> I for one am ecstatic about IDLE. It has a warm place in my heart. I
>> should set aside a few hours a week to help out with it.
>>
>> Anyhow great video, thanks for the link!
>>
>> On Thu, Feb 6, 2014 at 11:31 AM, Guido van Rossum <guido at python.org>
>> wrote:
>>> On Thu, Feb 6, 2014 at 10:31 AM, Bruce Sherwood
>>> <Bruce_Sherwood at ncsu.edu>
>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> I was surprised that in talking about the future of Python Jessica
>>>> didn't
>>>> touch on what may be really crucial, which is the importance of being
>>>> able
>>>> to use Python in client-side browser programming. Running in a browser
>>>> is of
>>>> rapidly increasing importance and Python could easily get left behind.
>>>> There
>>>> exist multiple projects whose goal is to be able to compile Python to
>>>> JavaScript to address this issue. It looks to me like Brython may be
>>>> the
>>>> best bet, in that it seems to be an active development with a small but
>>>> growing community of interested parties. What do you think about this,
>>>> Guido?
>>>
>>>
>>> I think this is a lost cause. Many very smart people have broken their
>>> heads
>>> against this particular wall.
>>>
>>>>
>>>> I'll mention that with the aid of Steve Spicklemire VPython has been
>>>> converted to be based on wxPython, which was vital in order to get off
>>>> Carbon and onto Cocoa on the Mac, and which also makes it possible to
>>>> use
>>>> wxPython widgets with VPython 3D canvases. I'm happy to report that in
>>>> the
>>>> last six months there were nearly 50,000 downloads of VPython, and that
>>>> it's
>>>> now featured in four (soon to be five) computational physics textbooks.
>>>
>>>
>>> That's awesome!
>>>
>>>>
>>>> Inspired by VPython, with a big initial push from David Scherer, the
>>>> originator of VPython, I'm developing GlowScript (glowscript.org) where
>>>> you
>>>> can write VPython-like 3D animations using WebGL, writing in JavaScript
>>>> or
>>>> CoffeeScript. A minimal program is the single-line program
>>>>
>>>> box()
>>>>
>>>> This program places a WebGL canvas in the window, displays a cube in
>>>> the
>>>> window, creates lights to illuminate the scene, places the camera so
>>>> that
>>>> the cube fills the window, and enables mouse interactions to zoom and
>>>> rotate. You can of course control all of these elements, but there are
>>>> lots
>>>> of good defaults to get going easily. Needless to say writing WebGL
>>>> programs
>>>> with other tools is vastly more difficult.
>>>>
>>>> It's already the case that it's very nice to be able to send a URL in
>>>> an
>>>> email and have the recipient click that link to see a 3D animation
>>>> rather
>>>> than asking them to install Python and VPython. Here's a simple example
>>>> that
>>>> will run in WebGL-enabled browsers:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> http://www.glowscript.org/#/user/GlowScriptDemos/folder/Examples/program/Bounce-CoffeeScript
>>>>
>>>> Many more demo programs are available at glowscript.org.
>>>>
>>>> However: I don't like the syntax of JavaScript, especially for novice
>>>> programmers, and even though CoffeeScript is more Pythonesque its syntax
>>>> and
>>>> use of white space is kind of quirky and, I judge, not good for novices.
>>>> I
>>>> would love to enable Python as one of the languages (indeed the major
>>>> language) for novices and experts to write GlowScript programs.
>>>
>>>
>>> Agreed that CoffeeScript is not newbie-friendly. But browsers have been
>>> even
>>> more unfriendly to running Python than mobile platforms. At least for
>>> the
>>> latter we have Kivy.
>>>
>>> --
>>> --Guido van Rossum (python.org/~guido)
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> IDLE-dev mailing list
>>> IDLE-dev at python.org
>>> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/idle-dev
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> A musician must make music, an artist must paint, a poet must write,
>> if he is to be ultimately at peace with himself.
>> - Abraham Maslow
>> _______________________________________________
>> IDLE-dev mailing list
>> IDLE-dev at python.org
>> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/idle-dev
> _______________________________________________
> IDLE-dev mailing list
> IDLE-dev at python.org
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/idle-dev
>


-- 
http://twitter.com/SimonForman
My blog: http://firequery.blogspot.com/
Also my blog: http://calroc.blogspot.com/



"The history of mankind for the last four centuries is rather like that of
an imprisoned sleeper, stirring clumsily and uneasily while the prison that
restrains and shelters him catches fire, not waking but incorporating the
crackling and warmth of the fire with ancient and incongruous dreams, than
like that of a man consciously awake to danger and opportunity."
--H. P. Wells, "A Short History of the World"

From guido at python.org  Sat Feb  8 03:20:45 2014
From: guido at python.org (Guido van Rossum)
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 2014 18:20:45 -0800
Subject: [Idle-dev] The Future of Python
In-Reply-To: <CAG08Ry+kxhBS30zqawxR6m=zNqZ=8th8Eu826_1MKhWJaRpc4w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAP97HnnqoGBKqApfcWvbwyN6LzmGmCCs7rQHTJpECOMSGu7gwA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAP7+vJJTSjCkNWOfbsUY5C62N-hUv9SGEf9PrBvXpF8Jc336dg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAFDG03gDxcjaxFUvM-PmU6sBH4YPb3mo_-kG=k=-n3zaP+s6sw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAP7+vJJ4uuTXAkAMhu+SvSgT5RkPDFtWOQef3UMGHS7tigGT8A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAOFf2a2D=t39P+hPEwLN+zxiG_Uba5JT=Y7wauc5QM_8CDOLkA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAP97Hnm-+1xbu57y6wRtqcWSUjd-YKy5HLo2Xy4NhkCTfKALXA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAG08Ry+kxhBS30zqawxR6m=zNqZ=8th8Eu826_1MKhWJaRpc4w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAP7+vJKEptuaTJZzDKeCJVyaupR8v_Ee9x36Gd7ab45R00S_dA@mail.gmail.com>

I suspect that how you view IDLE and Tk may have a lot to do with the
platform you're using, i.e. Mac or Win.
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From Bruce_Sherwood at ncsu.edu  Sat Feb  8 07:41:49 2014
From: Bruce_Sherwood at ncsu.edu (Bruce Sherwood)
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 2014 23:41:49 -0700
Subject: [Idle-dev] The Future of Python
In-Reply-To: <CAP7+vJKEptuaTJZzDKeCJVyaupR8v_Ee9x36Gd7ab45R00S_dA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAP97HnnqoGBKqApfcWvbwyN6LzmGmCCs7rQHTJpECOMSGu7gwA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAP7+vJJTSjCkNWOfbsUY5C62N-hUv9SGEf9PrBvXpF8Jc336dg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAFDG03gDxcjaxFUvM-PmU6sBH4YPb3mo_-kG=k=-n3zaP+s6sw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAP7+vJJ4uuTXAkAMhu+SvSgT5RkPDFtWOQef3UMGHS7tigGT8A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAOFf2a2D=t39P+hPEwLN+zxiG_Uba5JT=Y7wauc5QM_8CDOLkA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAP97Hnm-+1xbu57y6wRtqcWSUjd-YKy5HLo2Xy4NhkCTfKALXA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAG08Ry+kxhBS30zqawxR6m=zNqZ=8th8Eu826_1MKhWJaRpc4w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAP7+vJKEptuaTJZzDKeCJVyaupR8v_Ee9x36Gd7ab45R00S_dA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAFDG03h7wnoq=FHNX-NxcJzUdWmO+EKm91enhDRDKbY3-7xFLA@mail.gmail.com>

I too use only IDLE (in its VIDLE forked version) when writing Python
programs, as is the case also of the many thousands of students in our
intro physics curriculum, whether on Windows (about 80% of the users) or
Mac (about 15%, the remaining 5% being Linux).

I have the strong impression, including from Jessica's talk, that IDLE is
very objectionable to experienced programmers, and I would say simply that
they shouldn't use it. There are plenty of sophisticated IDEs around; I
myself use Eclipse for development work on VPython (the C++ part) and
GlowScript (JavaScript). For the nonexpert programmers I deal with, and for
that matter my own Python programming, IDLE is entirely adequate and
appropriate. It would be extremely unfortunate if IDLE were changed to
cater to expert programmers, leaving the novices and nonexperts in the
lurch.

My only concern about IDLE is that there seems to be no clear path for
getting improvements into the distributed version of IDLE, which is why the
VPython installer installs a version which for clarity is called VIDLE.
VIDLE includes important improvements made by Guilherme Polo in a 2009 GSOC
project for which I was a mentor, but despite it being a Python-approved
project at that time there was no way for the improvements to get into the
code base. I'm very pleased to see recent serious work on IDLE, and I think
most of Polo's work has been salvaged. I very much hope that these
improvements can be incorporated into the distributed IDLE, in which case
I'll stop packing VIDLE with VPython.

Bruce
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From ether.joe at gmail.com  Sat Feb  8 07:57:34 2014
From: ether.joe at gmail.com (Sean Felipe Wolfe)
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 2014 22:57:34 -0800
Subject: [Idle-dev] The Future of Python
In-Reply-To: <CAFDG03h7wnoq=FHNX-NxcJzUdWmO+EKm91enhDRDKbY3-7xFLA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAP97HnnqoGBKqApfcWvbwyN6LzmGmCCs7rQHTJpECOMSGu7gwA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAP7+vJJTSjCkNWOfbsUY5C62N-hUv9SGEf9PrBvXpF8Jc336dg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAFDG03gDxcjaxFUvM-PmU6sBH4YPb3mo_-kG=k=-n3zaP+s6sw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAP7+vJJ4uuTXAkAMhu+SvSgT5RkPDFtWOQef3UMGHS7tigGT8A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAOFf2a2D=t39P+hPEwLN+zxiG_Uba5JT=Y7wauc5QM_8CDOLkA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAP97Hnm-+1xbu57y6wRtqcWSUjd-YKy5HLo2Xy4NhkCTfKALXA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAG08Ry+kxhBS30zqawxR6m=zNqZ=8th8Eu826_1MKhWJaRpc4w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAP7+vJKEptuaTJZzDKeCJVyaupR8v_Ee9x36Gd7ab45R00S_dA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAFDG03h7wnoq=FHNX-NxcJzUdWmO+EKm91enhDRDKbY3-7xFLA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAOFf2a15DwdkUjmsoFHxub7nhusPQEhWv3YcKR4fBFBnGBW8Dw@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Feb 7, 2014 at 10:41 PM, Bruce Sherwood <Bruce_Sherwood at ncsu.edu> wrote:

> My only concern about IDLE is that there seems to be no clear path for
> getting improvements into the distributed version of IDLE,

Yeah this was a bit discouraging to me in the past -- that it didn't
seem like good fixes were getting onto the main distribution. IIRC
there are a lot of good bits in the fork.

It's been a little while but I remember us talking about some useful
pieces like having any keystroke take you back to the interpreter
prompt, regardless of where you are reading, and having the arrow
up/down keys act as alt-p alt-n . Those would be great imo.

How can I help??!!! Grab some bugs from the bug tracker? Is there
somebody quarterbacking IDLE dev these days?

From ether.joe at gmail.com  Sat Feb  8 08:10:08 2014
From: ether.joe at gmail.com (Sean Felipe Wolfe)
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 2014 23:10:08 -0800
Subject: [Idle-dev] The Future of Python
In-Reply-To: <CAOFf2a15DwdkUjmsoFHxub7nhusPQEhWv3YcKR4fBFBnGBW8Dw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAP97HnnqoGBKqApfcWvbwyN6LzmGmCCs7rQHTJpECOMSGu7gwA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAP7+vJJTSjCkNWOfbsUY5C62N-hUv9SGEf9PrBvXpF8Jc336dg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAFDG03gDxcjaxFUvM-PmU6sBH4YPb3mo_-kG=k=-n3zaP+s6sw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAP7+vJJ4uuTXAkAMhu+SvSgT5RkPDFtWOQef3UMGHS7tigGT8A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAOFf2a2D=t39P+hPEwLN+zxiG_Uba5JT=Y7wauc5QM_8CDOLkA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAP97Hnm-+1xbu57y6wRtqcWSUjd-YKy5HLo2Xy4NhkCTfKALXA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAG08Ry+kxhBS30zqawxR6m=zNqZ=8th8Eu826_1MKhWJaRpc4w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAP7+vJKEptuaTJZzDKeCJVyaupR8v_Ee9x36Gd7ab45R00S_dA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAFDG03h7wnoq=FHNX-NxcJzUdWmO+EKm91enhDRDKbY3-7xFLA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAOFf2a15DwdkUjmsoFHxub7nhusPQEhWv3YcKR4fBFBnGBW8Dw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAOFf2a29+Wvr-2s0nAr5qszvc1jDJU5DpkqQ7e_Ke506ZS-w3A@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Feb 7, 2014 at 10:57 PM, Sean Felipe Wolfe <ether.joe at gmail.com> wrote:
> IIRC there are a lot of good bits in the fork.

Er, I meant to say, 'the fork of IDLE called IDLEX' . Did we get any
of those in? That would be

http://idlex.sourceforge.net/

From Bruce_Sherwood at ncsu.edu  Sat Feb  8 08:42:04 2014
From: Bruce_Sherwood at ncsu.edu (Bruce Sherwood)
Date: Sat, 8 Feb 2014 00:42:04 -0700
Subject: [Idle-dev] The Future of Python
In-Reply-To: <CAOFf2a29+Wvr-2s0nAr5qszvc1jDJU5DpkqQ7e_Ke506ZS-w3A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAP97HnnqoGBKqApfcWvbwyN6LzmGmCCs7rQHTJpECOMSGu7gwA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAP7+vJJTSjCkNWOfbsUY5C62N-hUv9SGEf9PrBvXpF8Jc336dg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAFDG03gDxcjaxFUvM-PmU6sBH4YPb3mo_-kG=k=-n3zaP+s6sw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAP7+vJJ4uuTXAkAMhu+SvSgT5RkPDFtWOQef3UMGHS7tigGT8A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAOFf2a2D=t39P+hPEwLN+zxiG_Uba5JT=Y7wauc5QM_8CDOLkA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAP97Hnm-+1xbu57y6wRtqcWSUjd-YKy5HLo2Xy4NhkCTfKALXA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAG08Ry+kxhBS30zqawxR6m=zNqZ=8th8Eu826_1MKhWJaRpc4w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAP7+vJKEptuaTJZzDKeCJVyaupR8v_Ee9x36Gd7ab45R00S_dA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAFDG03h7wnoq=FHNX-NxcJzUdWmO+EKm91enhDRDKbY3-7xFLA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAOFf2a15DwdkUjmsoFHxub7nhusPQEhWv3YcKR4fBFBnGBW8Dw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAOFf2a29+Wvr-2s0nAr5qszvc1jDJU5DpkqQ7e_Ke506ZS-w3A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAFDG03hSO-QsYmFZ7TAHGJ-RZNinW6aXd2mNhzE_AcKDDSCCeQ@mail.gmail.com>

I'll mention that for my own purposes, and those of my students, the
interpreter prompt is of absolutely no interest whatsoever. All of our work
is done at the program level, in the editor, not at the interpreter prompt.
For us the Python Shell is used only for print() output. So I don't care
what bells and whistles are added to the Python Shell to suit the needs of
experts.

Bruce
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From tjreedy at udel.edu  Sat Feb  8 13:22:03 2014
From: tjreedy at udel.edu (Terry Reedy)
Date: Sat, 08 Feb 2014 07:22:03 -0500
Subject: [Idle-dev] The Future of Idle
Message-ID: <ld57hc$spf$1@ger.gmane.org>

Let me try to respond coherently to questions and comments from multiple 
posts.

1. While Idle is not maintained as well as I and some people would wish, 
it is untrue to say that 'Idle is not maintained'. It was not true a 
year ago, 6 months ago, and is not now.

2. In recent years, tkinter has been less well maintained than Idle and 
pretty much nothing had been done for awhile until Serhiy Storchaka dug 
into it about 6 months ago. He has greatly expanded the tk/tkinter test 
suite and fixed several bugs, including some that initially manifested 
as 'Idle bugs'.

3. For several years, I believe, K.B.Kaiser was the Idle 'quarterback', 
but he moved on to PSF work a few years ago and has done little Idle 
work since. At the moment, I seem to be the person spending the most 
time on Idle. More help is needed.

KBK applied patches to whatever versions he felt appropriate. 
Development after him he stopped working on Idle was hobbled by 
uncertainty, debate, and disagreement about whether other developers 
could do the same, and with what patches. Since PEP 434 was approved 
last March, working on Idle has been more pleasant. Most patches are 
applied to all current versions without fuss.

There currently is no one in charge of a 'grand plan'. PEP 434 
sidestepped the issue of 'approval' for big changes. For the rest of 
Python and the stdlib, big changes normally start with a pre-PEP or 
discussion on pydev or python-ideas.

4. My personal priorities are 'crash' issues, other fixes and 
improvements that benefit me, and continuing development on a test suite 
that should make it easier to patch Idle without introducing too many 
regressions.

There is no developer guide for Idle. Idlelib currently comprises about 
70 modules, mostly one class per file, with CamelCase.py names matching 
the class names. For a couple a reasons, I would like to consolidate 
some files and rename the rest to lowercase names. However, I would not 
think of doing so until *all* .py files are imported by the test suite, 
to verify that all imports within each file work continue to  work after 
changes. I am not sure who would have be involved in approving such a 
proposal.

My personal dream for Idle (in 3.5) is to have multiple multi-tabbed 
panes. I have a wide-screen monitor and I sometimes work with three Idle 
windows open side by side. For instance, when working on Idle I might 
have a Shell window, an Editor window for idlelib/xyz.py, and another 
Editor window for idle_test/test_xyz.py. Sometimes I would like to be 
able to switch the latter two to abc.py tabs without closing the xyz 
tabs. I presume others might do the same with their own code and test 
files.  I am aware that there is a patch for one multi-tabbed pane. Once 
that is working, adding an option to have two or three such panes should 
be feasible.

5. Sean asked "How can I help??!!! Grab some bugs from the bug tracker?" 
  In essence, yes. In theory, every bug should be verified on Windows, 
Linux, and Mac  with (currently) 2.7, 3.3, and 3.4. Ditto for patches. 
Some issues probably need more discussion of options for action. Also 
look at the developer guide on the site and the core-mentorship list.

-- 
Terry Jan Reedy


From vatroslavsuton at aim.com  Sun Feb  9 10:33:06 2014
From: vatroslavsuton at aim.com (Vatroslav Suton)
Date: Sun, 9 Feb 2014 04:33:06 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [Idle-dev] The Future of Python
In-Reply-To: <CAFDG03hSO-QsYmFZ7TAHGJ-RZNinW6aXd2mNhzE_AcKDDSCCeQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAP97HnnqoGBKqApfcWvbwyN6LzmGmCCs7rQHTJpECOMSGu7gwA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAP7+vJJTSjCkNWOfbsUY5C62N-hUv9SGEf9PrBvXpF8Jc336dg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAFDG03gDxcjaxFUvM-PmU6sBH4YPb3mo_-kG=k=-n3zaP+s6sw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAP7+vJJ4uuTXAkAMhu+SvSgT5RkPDFtWOQef3UMGHS7tigGT8A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAOFf2a2D=t39P+hPEwLN+zxiG_Uba5JT=Y7wauc5QM_8CDOLkA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAP97Hnm-+1xbu57y6wRtqcWSUjd-YKy5HLo2Xy4NhkCTfKALXA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAG08Ry+kxhBS30zqawxR6m=zNqZ=8th8Eu826_1MKhWJaRpc4w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAP7+vJKEptuaTJZzDKeCJVyaupR8v_Ee9x36Gd7ab45R00S_dA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAFDG03h7wnoq=FHNX-NxcJzUdWmO+EKm91enhDRDKbY3-7xFLA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAOFf2a15DwdkUjmsoFHxub7nhusPQEhWv3YcKR4fBFBnGBW8Dw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAOFf2a29+Wvr-2s0nAr5qszvc1jDJU5DpkqQ7e_Ke506ZS-w3A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAFDG03hSO-QsYmFZ7TAHGJ-RZNinW6aXd2mNhzE_AcKDDSCCeQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <8D0F391127AD91B-28C0-11BA0@webmail-m250.sysops.aol.com>


porting python to javascript, np

Vatroslav Suton
vatroslavsuton at aim.com



-----Original Message-----
From: Bruce Sherwood <Bruce_Sherwood at ncsu.edu>
To: Sean Felipe Wolfe <ether.joe at gmail.com>
Cc: sforman <sforman at hushmail.com>; idle <idle-dev at python.org>; Guido van Rossum <guido at python.org>
Sent: Sat, Feb 8, 2014 9:36 am
Subject: Re: [Idle-dev] The Future of Python



I'll mention that for my own purposes, and those of my students, the interpreter prompt is of absolutely no interest whatsoever. All of our work is done at the program level, in the editor, not at the interpreter prompt. For us the Python Shell is used only for print() output. So I don't care what bells and whistles are added to the Python Shell to suit the needs of experts. 


Bruce


_______________________________________________
IDLE-dev mailing list
IDLE-dev at python.org
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/idle-dev

 
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From paul.james.barry at gmail.com  Mon Feb 10 11:05:38 2014
From: paul.james.barry at gmail.com (Paul Barry)
Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2014 10:05:38 +0000
Subject: [Idle-dev] The Future of Python
In-Reply-To: <8D0F391127AD91B-28C0-11BA0@webmail-m250.sysops.aol.com>
References: <CAP97HnnqoGBKqApfcWvbwyN6LzmGmCCs7rQHTJpECOMSGu7gwA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAP7+vJJTSjCkNWOfbsUY5C62N-hUv9SGEf9PrBvXpF8Jc336dg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAFDG03gDxcjaxFUvM-PmU6sBH4YPb3mo_-kG=k=-n3zaP+s6sw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAP7+vJJ4uuTXAkAMhu+SvSgT5RkPDFtWOQef3UMGHS7tigGT8A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAOFf2a2D=t39P+hPEwLN+zxiG_Uba5JT=Y7wauc5QM_8CDOLkA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAP97Hnm-+1xbu57y6wRtqcWSUjd-YKy5HLo2Xy4NhkCTfKALXA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAG08Ry+kxhBS30zqawxR6m=zNqZ=8th8Eu826_1MKhWJaRpc4w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAP7+vJKEptuaTJZzDKeCJVyaupR8v_Ee9x36Gd7ab45R00S_dA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAFDG03h7wnoq=FHNX-NxcJzUdWmO+EKm91enhDRDKbY3-7xFLA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAOFf2a15DwdkUjmsoFHxub7nhusPQEhWv3YcKR4fBFBnGBW8Dw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAOFf2a29+Wvr-2s0nAr5qszvc1jDJU5DpkqQ7e_Ke506ZS-w3A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAFDG03hSO-QsYmFZ7TAHGJ-RZNinW6aXd2mNhzE_AcKDDSCCeQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <8D0F391127AD91B-28C0-11BA0@webmail-m250.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <CAFwVEOS7y6mg3RJeM8cS_GFEBRC2SJZin4wQNu5mQbWFzz1kxw@mail.gmail.com>

I used IDLE extensively in the first edition of "Head First Python". For
the second edition (which is now very, very late - but that's another
story), I took the time to take a look at a bunch of other Python IDEs and,
after working with a lot of them, have ended up coming back to IDLE (and
have continued to use it in the second edition of my book).  IDLE has
recently received some development love (helped, I think, by all the
activity around 3.4), which has improved some of its stability and usage
issues, and it is still the best tool (IMHO) when introducing students to
Python for the first time.

Those who continue the labor of love which helps to improve IDLE are to be
commended.  The Python world would be a much poorer place if IDLE wasn't
part of it.

Paul.


On 9 February 2014 09:33, Vatroslav Suton <vatroslavsuton at aim.com> wrote:

> porting python to javascript, np
>  Vatroslav Suton
> vatroslavsuton at aim.com
>   -----Original Message-----
> From: Bruce Sherwood <Bruce_Sherwood at ncsu.edu>
> To: Sean Felipe Wolfe <ether.joe at gmail.com>
> Cc: sforman <sforman at hushmail.com>; idle <idle-dev at python.org>; Guido van
> Rossum <guido at python.org>
> Sent: Sat, Feb 8, 2014 9:36 am
> Subject: Re: [Idle-dev] The Future of Python
>
>  I'll mention that for my own purposes, and those of my students, the
> interpreter prompt is of absolutely no interest whatsoever. All of our work
> is done at the program level, in the editor, not at the interpreter prompt.
> For us the Python Shell is used only for print() output. So I don't care
> what bells and whistles are added to the Python Shell to suit the needs of
> experts.
>
>  Bruce
>
> _______________________________________________
> IDLE-dev mailing listIDLE-dev at python.orghttps://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/idle-dev
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> IDLE-dev mailing list
> IDLE-dev at python.org
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/idle-dev
>
>


-- 
Paul Barry, w: http://paulbarry.itcarlow.ie - e: paul.barry at itcarlow.ie
Lecturer, Computer Networking: Institute of Technology, Carlow, Ireland.
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From tjreedy at udel.edu  Mon Feb 10 12:33:05 2014
From: tjreedy at udel.edu (Terry Reedy)
Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2014 06:33:05 -0500
Subject: [Idle-dev] The Future of Python
In-Reply-To: <CAFwVEOS7y6mg3RJeM8cS_GFEBRC2SJZin4wQNu5mQbWFzz1kxw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAP97HnnqoGBKqApfcWvbwyN6LzmGmCCs7rQHTJpECOMSGu7gwA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAP7+vJJTSjCkNWOfbsUY5C62N-hUv9SGEf9PrBvXpF8Jc336dg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAFDG03gDxcjaxFUvM-PmU6sBH4YPb3mo_-kG=k=-n3zaP+s6sw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAP7+vJJ4uuTXAkAMhu+SvSgT5RkPDFtWOQef3UMGHS7tigGT8A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAOFf2a2D=t39P+hPEwLN+zxiG_Uba5JT=Y7wauc5QM_8CDOLkA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAP97Hnm-+1xbu57y6wRtqcWSUjd-YKy5HLo2Xy4NhkCTfKALXA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAG08Ry+kxhBS30zqawxR6m=zNqZ=8th8Eu826_1MKhWJaRpc4w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAP7+vJKEptuaTJZzDKeCJVyaupR8v_Ee9x36Gd7ab45R00S_dA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAFDG03h7wnoq=FHNX-NxcJzUdWmO+EKm91enhDRDKbY3-7xFLA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAOFf2a15DwdkUjmsoFHxub7nhusPQEhWv3YcKR4fBFBnGBW8Dw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAOFf2a29+Wvr-2s0nAr5qszvc1jDJU5DpkqQ7e_Ke506ZS-w3A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAFDG03hSO-QsYmFZ7TAHGJ-RZNinW6aXd2mNhzE_AcKDDSCCeQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <8D0F391127AD91B-28C0-11BA0@webmail-m250.sysops.aol.com>
 <CAFwVEOS7y6mg3RJeM8cS_GFEBRC2SJZin4wQNu5mQbWFzz1kxw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <ldaddn$6gs$1@ger.gmane.org>

On 2/10/2014 5:05 AM, Paul Barry wrote:
> I used IDLE extensively in the first edition of "Head First Python". For
> the second edition (which is now very, very late - but that's another
> story), I took the time to take a look at a bunch of other Python IDEs
> and, after working with a lot of them, have ended up coming back to IDLE
> (and have continued to use it in the second edition of my book).  IDLE
> has recently received some development love (helped, I think, by all the
> activity around 3.4), which has improved some of its stability and usage
> issues, and it is still the best tool (IMHO) when introducing students
> to Python for the first time.
>
> Those who continue the labor of love which helps to improve IDLE are to
> be commended.  The Python world would be a much poorer place if IDLE
> wasn't part of it.

Thank you Paul, and others who have given positive feedback on Idle in 
this thread. The negativity about Idle has previously been louder than 
such positive feedback and a bit dispiriting. It is helpful to know that 
someone besides me benefits from the improvements I make.

-- 
Terry Jan Reedy


From glyph at twistedmatrix.com  Tue Feb 11 00:07:45 2014
From: glyph at twistedmatrix.com (Glyph)
Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2014 17:07:45 -0600
Subject: [Idle-dev] The Future of Python
In-Reply-To: <CAP7+vJJ4uuTXAkAMhu+SvSgT5RkPDFtWOQef3UMGHS7tigGT8A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAP97HnnqoGBKqApfcWvbwyN6LzmGmCCs7rQHTJpECOMSGu7gwA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAP7+vJJTSjCkNWOfbsUY5C62N-hUv9SGEf9PrBvXpF8Jc336dg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAFDG03gDxcjaxFUvM-PmU6sBH4YPb3mo_-kG=k=-n3zaP+s6sw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAP7+vJJ4uuTXAkAMhu+SvSgT5RkPDFtWOQef3UMGHS7tigGT8A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <875FC0C9-F9A6-49FD-9915-6DF08F54DF44@twistedmatrix.com>


On Feb 6, 2014, at 1:31 PM, Guido van Rossum <guido at python.org> wrote:

> On Thu, Feb 6, 2014 at 10:31 AM, Bruce Sherwood <Bruce_Sherwood at ncsu.edu> wrote:
> I was surprised that in talking about the future of Python Jessica didn't touch on what may be really crucial, which is the importance of being able to use Python in client-side browser programming. Running in a browser is of rapidly increasing importance and Python could easily get left behind. There exist multiple projects whose goal is to be able to compile Python to JavaScript to address this issue. It looks to me like Brython may be the best bet, in that it seems to be an active development with a small but growing community of interested parties. What do you think about this, Guido?
> 
> I think this is a lost cause. Many very smart people have broken their heads against this particular wall.

Personally I'm keeping an eye on Brython, but it is basically non-functional from the perspective of running any existing Python code, even code written from scratch specifically to be portable to Brython. PyJS, on the other hand, while somewhat clunky, I've managed to get existing Python libs up and running on with a relatively modest amount of hackery.

Nevertheless, Bruce, I would encourage you to contribute to one of these projects; maybe make Brython's parser a bit more of a serious contender, since its way of integrating with JavaScript and HTML is much more sensible, even if it's not really "python" in any meaningful sense yet ;-).  Notwithstanding most of python-dev's disinterest (including Guido!), I agree that this is critical to Python's long-term survival.

And let me make a halfhearted attempt to bring this on-topic: it would be absolutely amazing if IDLE actually had a plugin to allow you to write some HTML and some CSS and stuff so that new users could easily get up and running with something that looks "real" to modern students (i.e. a web page that they can share, not just some turtle graphics on a canvas).

-glyph

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From guido at python.org  Tue Feb 11 00:19:00 2014
From: guido at python.org (Guido van Rossum)
Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2014 15:19:00 -0800
Subject: [Idle-dev] The Future of Python
In-Reply-To: <875FC0C9-F9A6-49FD-9915-6DF08F54DF44@twistedmatrix.com>
References: <CAP97HnnqoGBKqApfcWvbwyN6LzmGmCCs7rQHTJpECOMSGu7gwA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAP7+vJJTSjCkNWOfbsUY5C62N-hUv9SGEf9PrBvXpF8Jc336dg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAFDG03gDxcjaxFUvM-PmU6sBH4YPb3mo_-kG=k=-n3zaP+s6sw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAP7+vJJ4uuTXAkAMhu+SvSgT5RkPDFtWOQef3UMGHS7tigGT8A@mail.gmail.com>
 <875FC0C9-F9A6-49FD-9915-6DF08F54DF44@twistedmatrix.com>
Message-ID: <CAP7+vJ+=F-q1WUawJyoLq+HwrVP=WjV5TtMpeKvsVO5DxJd1Dw@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Feb 10, 2014 at 3:07 PM, Glyph <glyph at twistedmatrix.com> wrote:

>
> On Feb 6, 2014, at 1:31 PM, Guido van Rossum <guido at python.org> wrote:
>
> On Thu, Feb 6, 2014 at 10:31 AM, Bruce Sherwood <Bruce_Sherwood at ncsu.edu>
> wrote:
>
>> I was surprised that in talking about the future of Python Jessica didn't
>> touch on what may be really crucial, which is the importance of being able
>> to use Python in client-side browser programming. Running in a browser is
>> of rapidly increasing importance and Python could easily get left behind.
>> There exist multiple projects whose goal is to be able to compile Python to
>> JavaScript to address this issue. It looks to me like Brython may be the
>> best bet, in that it seems to be an active development with a small but
>> growing community of interested parties. What do you think about this,
>> Guido?
>>
>
> I think this is a lost cause. Many very smart people have broken their
> heads against this particular wall.
>
>
> Personally I'm keeping an eye on Brython, but it is basically
> non-functional from the perspective of running *any* existing Python
> code, even code written from scratch specifically to be portable to
> Brython. PyJS, on the other hand, while somewhat clunky, I've managed to
> get existing Python libs up and running on with a relatively modest amount
> of hackery.
>
> Nevertheless, Bruce, I would encourage you to contribute to one of these
> projects; maybe make Brython's parser a bit more of a serious contender,
> since its way of integrating with JavaScript and HTML is much more
> sensible, even if it's not really "python" in any meaningful sense yet ;-).
>  Notwithstanding most of python-dev's disinterest (including Guido!), I
> agree that this is critical to Python's long-term survival.
>

Then we're doomed, because this is entirely political (the companies making
browsers must want to do it).


> And let me make a halfhearted attempt to bring this on-topic: it would be
> absolutely *amazing* if IDLE actually had a plugin to allow you to write
> some HTML and some CSS and stuff so that new users could easily get up and
> running with something that looks "real" to modern students (i.e. a web
> page that they can share, not just some turtle graphics on a canvas).
>
> -glyph
>
>


-- 
--Guido van Rossum (python.org/~guido)
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From glyph at twistedmatrix.com  Tue Feb 11 00:35:52 2014
From: glyph at twistedmatrix.com (Glyph)
Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2014 17:35:52 -0600
Subject: [Idle-dev] The Future of Python
In-Reply-To: <CAP7+vJ+=F-q1WUawJyoLq+HwrVP=WjV5TtMpeKvsVO5DxJd1Dw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAP97HnnqoGBKqApfcWvbwyN6LzmGmCCs7rQHTJpECOMSGu7gwA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAP7+vJJTSjCkNWOfbsUY5C62N-hUv9SGEf9PrBvXpF8Jc336dg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAFDG03gDxcjaxFUvM-PmU6sBH4YPb3mo_-kG=k=-n3zaP+s6sw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAP7+vJJ4uuTXAkAMhu+SvSgT5RkPDFtWOQef3UMGHS7tigGT8A@mail.gmail.com>
 <875FC0C9-F9A6-49FD-9915-6DF08F54DF44@twistedmatrix.com>
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Message-ID: <07956762-ADF3-439A-9916-50C4253F54DC@twistedmatrix.com>


On Feb 10, 2014, at 5:19 PM, Guido van Rossum <guido at python.org> wrote:

> Then we're doomed, because this is entirely political (the companies making browsers must want to do it).

Not at all.  There are a number of promising proofs of concept, demonstrating different aspects of this problem: Pyjamas, the PyJS fork of Pyjamas, Skulpt, Empythoned (which actually compiles CPython to run in the browser with surprisingly reasonable performance!), Brython, and PyPy's now defunct JS backend to name a few.  With source maps, it's even possible to use native JavaScript debugging and profiling tools on Browser-hosted Python.

The political problem is entirely based around getting the various interested parties together and trying to hammer out some kind of common core that they can all get running and contribute to, rather than duplicating tons and tons of effort and only ever getting to a 60% solution.

Browser vendors seem perfectly happy to treat JavaScript as a compilation target; efforts like ASM.JS are in fact trying to formalize this process and provide support for it.  Most of these Py-to-JS converters work fine on mobile devices, too.

Guido, if you haven't checked it out, <http://www.brython.info> is a very interesting demo: it literally makes <script type="text/python3"> work in a web page, with nothing beyond a single JavaScript file include (no local compilation, no offline processing).  The only problem is that the language really isn't quite Python - see, for example, <https://bitbucket.org/olemis/brython/issue/147/generators-send-method-missed>.  But they've made a surprising amount of progress since I last checked, and they seem to be closing issues all the time :-).

-glyph

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From breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk  Tue Feb 11 00:42:19 2014
From: breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk (Mark Lawrence)
Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2014 23:42:19 +0000
Subject: [Idle-dev] The Future of Python
In-Reply-To: <875FC0C9-F9A6-49FD-9915-6DF08F54DF44@twistedmatrix.com>
References: <CAP97HnnqoGBKqApfcWvbwyN6LzmGmCCs7rQHTJpECOMSGu7gwA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAP7+vJJTSjCkNWOfbsUY5C62N-hUv9SGEf9PrBvXpF8Jc336dg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAFDG03gDxcjaxFUvM-PmU6sBH4YPb3mo_-kG=k=-n3zaP+s6sw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAP7+vJJ4uuTXAkAMhu+SvSgT5RkPDFtWOQef3UMGHS7tigGT8A@mail.gmail.com>
 <875FC0C9-F9A6-49FD-9915-6DF08F54DF44@twistedmatrix.com>
Message-ID: <ldbo4g$t8h$1@ger.gmane.org>

On 10/02/2014 23:07, Glyph wrote:
>
> And let me make a halfhearted attempt to bring this on-topic: it would
> be absolutely /amazing/ if IDLE actually had a plugin to allow you to
> write some HTML and some CSS and stuff so that new users could easily
> get up and running with something that looks "real" to modern students
> (i.e. a web page that they can share, not just some turtle graphics on a
> canvas).
>

It would be absolutely amazing what Terry Reedy et al were to achieve if 
they were to be given a helping hand fixing the 122 outstanding IDLE 
bugs prior to adding anything to it.

-- 
My fellow Pythonistas, ask not what our language can do for you, ask 
what you can do for our language.

Mark Lawrence

---
This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active.
http://www.avast.com



From interstar at gmail.com  Tue Feb 11 02:08:20 2014
From: interstar at gmail.com (phil jones)
Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2014 23:08:20 -0200
Subject: [Idle-dev] The Future of Python
In-Reply-To: <07956762-ADF3-439A-9916-50C4253F54DC@twistedmatrix.com>
References: <CAP97HnnqoGBKqApfcWvbwyN6LzmGmCCs7rQHTJpECOMSGu7gwA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAP7+vJJTSjCkNWOfbsUY5C62N-hUv9SGEf9PrBvXpF8Jc336dg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAFDG03gDxcjaxFUvM-PmU6sBH4YPb3mo_-kG=k=-n3zaP+s6sw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAP7+vJJ4uuTXAkAMhu+SvSgT5RkPDFtWOQef3UMGHS7tigGT8A@mail.gmail.com>
 <875FC0C9-F9A6-49FD-9915-6DF08F54DF44@twistedmatrix.com>
 <CAP7+vJ+=F-q1WUawJyoLq+HwrVP=WjV5TtMpeKvsVO5DxJd1Dw@mail.gmail.com>
 <07956762-ADF3-439A-9916-50C4253F54DC@twistedmatrix.com>
Message-ID: <CAP97HnmnTLfyN4DXcowuBk3oGivn_20qsNHdhGyZ5A-Ocq6tRQ@mail.gmail.com>

Why is PyPy's js back-end defunct? That would seem to be most obvious
way to get this, no?

Is there a particular bit of Python semantics that's hard to compile to js?

Phil

On 10 February 2014 21:35, Glyph <glyph at twistedmatrix.com> wrote:
>
> On Feb 10, 2014, at 5:19 PM, Guido van Rossum <guido at python.org> wrote:
>
> Then we're doomed, because this is entirely political (the companies making
> browsers must want to do it).
>
>
> Not at all.  There are a number of promising proofs of concept,
> demonstrating different aspects of this problem: Pyjamas, the PyJS fork of
> Pyjamas, Skulpt, Empythoned (which actually compiles CPython to run in the
> browser with surprisingly reasonable performance!), Brython, and PyPy's now
> defunct JS backend to name a few.  With source maps, it's even possible to
> use native JavaScript debugging and profiling tools on Browser-hosted
> Python.
>
> The political problem is entirely based around getting the various
> interested parties together and trying to hammer out some kind of common
> core that they can all get running and contribute to, rather than
> duplicating tons and tons of effort and only ever getting to a 60% solution.
>
> Browser vendors seem perfectly happy to treat JavaScript as a compilation
> target; efforts like ASM.JS are in fact trying to formalize this process and
> provide support for it.  Most of these Py-to-JS converters work fine on
> mobile devices, too.
>
> Guido, if you haven't checked it out, <http://www.brython.info> is a very
> interesting demo: it literally makes <script type="text/python3"> work in a
> web page, with nothing beyond a single JavaScript file include (no local
> compilation, no offline processing).  The only problem is that the language
> really isn't quite Python - see, for example,
> <https://bitbucket.org/olemis/brython/issue/147/generators-send-method-missed>.
> But they've made a surprising amount of progress since I last checked, and
> they seem to be closing issues all the time :-).
>
> -glyph
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> IDLE-dev mailing list
> IDLE-dev at python.org
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/idle-dev
>

From interstar at gmail.com  Tue Feb 11 02:10:27 2014
From: interstar at gmail.com (phil jones)
Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2014 23:10:27 -0200
Subject: [Idle-dev] The Future of Python
In-Reply-To: <CAFDG03h7wnoq=FHNX-NxcJzUdWmO+EKm91enhDRDKbY3-7xFLA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAP97HnnqoGBKqApfcWvbwyN6LzmGmCCs7rQHTJpECOMSGu7gwA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAP7+vJJTSjCkNWOfbsUY5C62N-hUv9SGEf9PrBvXpF8Jc336dg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAFDG03gDxcjaxFUvM-PmU6sBH4YPb3mo_-kG=k=-n3zaP+s6sw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAP7+vJJ4uuTXAkAMhu+SvSgT5RkPDFtWOQef3UMGHS7tigGT8A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAOFf2a2D=t39P+hPEwLN+zxiG_Uba5JT=Y7wauc5QM_8CDOLkA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAP97Hnm-+1xbu57y6wRtqcWSUjd-YKy5HLo2Xy4NhkCTfKALXA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAG08Ry+kxhBS30zqawxR6m=zNqZ=8th8Eu826_1MKhWJaRpc4w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAP7+vJKEptuaTJZzDKeCJVyaupR8v_Ee9x36Gd7ab45R00S_dA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAFDG03h7wnoq=FHNX-NxcJzUdWmO+EKm91enhDRDKbY3-7xFLA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAP97HnmeNxqtjLU6BVTJ4eF0_yTqrH2qi3NWqmtQEL1hSHg3eA@mail.gmail.com>

Bruce : [quote]
I have the strong impression, including from Jessica's talk, that IDLE is
very objectionable to experienced programmers, and I would say simply that
they shouldn't use it.
[/quote]

To be honest, I interpreted Jessica as saying the opposite. That IDLE was
not good enough for the *beginners* in her novice class. And that one of
the barriers to entry to python in general was the lack of a good entry
level development environment.
I don't think this about professional programmers missing "advanced"
features.

Phil
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From forman.simon at gmail.com  Tue Feb 11 02:17:12 2014
From: forman.simon at gmail.com (Simon Forman)
Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2014 17:17:12 -0800
Subject: [Idle-dev] The Future of Python
In-Reply-To: <ldbo4g$t8h$1@ger.gmane.org>
References: <CAP97HnnqoGBKqApfcWvbwyN6LzmGmCCs7rQHTJpECOMSGu7gwA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAP7+vJJTSjCkNWOfbsUY5C62N-hUv9SGEf9PrBvXpF8Jc336dg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAFDG03gDxcjaxFUvM-PmU6sBH4YPb3mo_-kG=k=-n3zaP+s6sw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAP7+vJJ4uuTXAkAMhu+SvSgT5RkPDFtWOQef3UMGHS7tigGT8A@mail.gmail.com>
 <875FC0C9-F9A6-49FD-9915-6DF08F54DF44@twistedmatrix.com>
 <ldbo4g$t8h$1@ger.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <CAG08RyKSmeS0+aVZTBRHjMe4r2fFtT0jS1rnaQe=uqmF_JPwFg@mail.gmail.com>

On 2/10/14, Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
[snip]
>
> It would be absolutely amazing what Terry Reedy et al were to achieve if
> they were to be given a helping hand fixing the 122 outstanding IDLE
> bugs prior to adding anything to it.
>


Right, well, I've just gotten a hg checkout and I should have time
this week to work on (and perhaps close) at least one issue.

Recommendations for issues to work on?  (I don't have access to windows, so...)

Cheers,
~Simon


-- 
http://phoenixbureau.org/
My blog: http://phoenixbureau.org/blog.html
http://twitter.com/SimonForman



"The history of mankind for the last four centuries is rather like that of
an imprisoned sleeper, stirring clumsily and uneasily while the prison that
restrains and shelters him catches fire, not waking but incorporating the
crackling and warmth of the fire with ancient and incongruous dreams, than
like that of a man consciously awake to danger and opportunity."
--H. P. Wells, "A Short History of the World"

From Bruce_Sherwood at ncsu.edu  Tue Feb 11 02:39:13 2014
From: Bruce_Sherwood at ncsu.edu (Bruce Sherwood)
Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2014 18:39:13 -0700
Subject: [Idle-dev] The Future of Python
In-Reply-To: <CAP97HnmeNxqtjLU6BVTJ4eF0_yTqrH2qi3NWqmtQEL1hSHg3eA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAP97HnnqoGBKqApfcWvbwyN6LzmGmCCs7rQHTJpECOMSGu7gwA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAP7+vJJTSjCkNWOfbsUY5C62N-hUv9SGEf9PrBvXpF8Jc336dg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAFDG03gDxcjaxFUvM-PmU6sBH4YPb3mo_-kG=k=-n3zaP+s6sw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAP7+vJJ4uuTXAkAMhu+SvSgT5RkPDFtWOQef3UMGHS7tigGT8A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAOFf2a2D=t39P+hPEwLN+zxiG_Uba5JT=Y7wauc5QM_8CDOLkA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAP97Hnm-+1xbu57y6wRtqcWSUjd-YKy5HLo2Xy4NhkCTfKALXA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAG08Ry+kxhBS30zqawxR6m=zNqZ=8th8Eu826_1MKhWJaRpc4w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAP7+vJKEptuaTJZzDKeCJVyaupR8v_Ee9x36Gd7ab45R00S_dA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAFDG03h7wnoq=FHNX-NxcJzUdWmO+EKm91enhDRDKbY3-7xFLA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAP97HnmeNxqtjLU6BVTJ4eF0_yTqrH2qi3NWqmtQEL1hSHg3eA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAFDG03j1HO3b1TcWks8XzWBBp0Rn=4jUZWFV_U9Ab1Lw5Zpntw@mail.gmail.com>

If I misunderstood, it is because IDLE works very well for my thousands of
Python newbies.

Bruce
On Feb 10, 2014 6:10 PM, "phil jones" <interstar at gmail.com> wrote:

> Bruce : [quote]
> I have the strong impression, including from Jessica's talk, that IDLE is
> very objectionable to experienced programmers, and I would say simply that
> they shouldn't use it.
> [/quote]
>
> To be honest, I interpreted Jessica as saying the opposite. That IDLE was
> not good enough for the *beginners* in her novice class. And that one of
> the barriers to entry to python in general was the lack of a good entry
> level development environment.
> I don't think this about professional programmers missing "advanced"
> features.
>
> Phil
>
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From interstar at gmail.com  Tue Feb 11 03:32:53 2014
From: interstar at gmail.com (phil jones)
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2014 00:32:53 -0200
Subject: [Idle-dev] The Future of Python
In-Reply-To: <CAFDG03j1HO3b1TcWks8XzWBBp0Rn=4jUZWFV_U9Ab1Lw5Zpntw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAP97HnnqoGBKqApfcWvbwyN6LzmGmCCs7rQHTJpECOMSGu7gwA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAP7+vJJTSjCkNWOfbsUY5C62N-hUv9SGEf9PrBvXpF8Jc336dg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAFDG03gDxcjaxFUvM-PmU6sBH4YPb3mo_-kG=k=-n3zaP+s6sw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAP7+vJJ4uuTXAkAMhu+SvSgT5RkPDFtWOQef3UMGHS7tigGT8A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAOFf2a2D=t39P+hPEwLN+zxiG_Uba5JT=Y7wauc5QM_8CDOLkA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAP97Hnm-+1xbu57y6wRtqcWSUjd-YKy5HLo2Xy4NhkCTfKALXA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAG08Ry+kxhBS30zqawxR6m=zNqZ=8th8Eu826_1MKhWJaRpc4w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAP7+vJKEptuaTJZzDKeCJVyaupR8v_Ee9x36Gd7ab45R00S_dA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAFDG03h7wnoq=FHNX-NxcJzUdWmO+EKm91enhDRDKbY3-7xFLA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAP97HnmeNxqtjLU6BVTJ4eF0_yTqrH2qi3NWqmtQEL1hSHg3eA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAFDG03j1HO3b1TcWks8XzWBBp0Rn=4jUZWFV_U9Ab1Lw5Zpntw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAP97HnkRntoRMtf1m+FMkjjPJ6FKyw3sL9Hk9FQRz0_Ok+TMqw@mail.gmail.com>

But if I understand correctly, you're using VIDLE not IDLE? Or did I
get that wrong?

On 10 February 2014 23:39, Bruce Sherwood <Bruce_Sherwood at ncsu.edu> wrote:
> If I misunderstood, it is because IDLE works very well for my thousands of
> Python newbies.
>
> Bruce
>
> On Feb 10, 2014 6:10 PM, "phil jones" <interstar at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Bruce : [quote]
>> I have the strong impression, including from Jessica's talk, that IDLE is
>> very objectionable to experienced programmers, and I would say simply that
>> they shouldn't use it.
>> [/quote]
>>
>> To be honest, I interpreted Jessica as saying the opposite. That IDLE was
>> not good enough for the *beginners* in her novice class. And that one of the
>> barriers to entry to python in general was the lack of a good entry level
>> development environment.
>>
>> I don't think this about professional programmers missing "advanced"
>> features.
>>
>> Phil

From Bruce_Sherwood at ncsu.edu  Tue Feb 11 04:12:30 2014
From: Bruce_Sherwood at ncsu.edu (Bruce Sherwood)
Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2014 20:12:30 -0700
Subject: [Idle-dev] The Future of Python
In-Reply-To: <CAP97HnkRntoRMtf1m+FMkjjPJ6FKyw3sL9Hk9FQRz0_Ok+TMqw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAP97HnnqoGBKqApfcWvbwyN6LzmGmCCs7rQHTJpECOMSGu7gwA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAP7+vJJTSjCkNWOfbsUY5C62N-hUv9SGEf9PrBvXpF8Jc336dg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAFDG03gDxcjaxFUvM-PmU6sBH4YPb3mo_-kG=k=-n3zaP+s6sw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAP7+vJJ4uuTXAkAMhu+SvSgT5RkPDFtWOQef3UMGHS7tigGT8A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAOFf2a2D=t39P+hPEwLN+zxiG_Uba5JT=Y7wauc5QM_8CDOLkA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAP97Hnm-+1xbu57y6wRtqcWSUjd-YKy5HLo2Xy4NhkCTfKALXA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAG08Ry+kxhBS30zqawxR6m=zNqZ=8th8Eu826_1MKhWJaRpc4w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAP7+vJKEptuaTJZzDKeCJVyaupR8v_Ee9x36Gd7ab45R00S_dA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAFDG03h7wnoq=FHNX-NxcJzUdWmO+EKm91enhDRDKbY3-7xFLA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAP97HnmeNxqtjLU6BVTJ4eF0_yTqrH2qi3NWqmtQEL1hSHg3eA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAFDG03j1HO3b1TcWks8XzWBBp0Rn=4jUZWFV_U9Ab1Lw5Zpntw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAP97HnkRntoRMtf1m+FMkjjPJ6FKyw3sL9Hk9FQRz0_Ok+TMqw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAFDG03irCufX_zaNO-LncoDuTiSHOhnXhFvM630=wm8s0JHD6Q@mail.gmail.com>

Yes, we're currently using VIDLE, but the differences between VIDLE and
IDLE are not significant in the context of the criticisms of IDLE, and
moreover, thanks to Terry's and other work, I'm hopeful that it will soon
be possible to abandon VIDLE.

Upon reflection, I think I may see why Jessica feels that IDLE is
unsuitable for her new users and why I find it quite adequate. I think
she's teaching programming and computer science, so that even if the people
are new to programming it makes sense to introduce them right from the
start to procedures and tools that are appropriate for computing
professionals.

The audience I try to serve is very different, engineering and science
students in the two-semester "calculus-based" intro physics course they are
required to take. Ruth Chabay and I have integrated computational modeling
into this course, which is highly unusual but extremely important, given
that computational modeling is co-equal with theory and experiment, not
just in physics but in all STEM disciplines (STEM = Science, Technology,
Engineering, and Mathematics). Alas, computational modeling is way
under-represented in undergraduate STEM education, and we're trying to
address that problem.

We want the students to write complete algorithms for modeling physical
systems, which means no black boxes: no fancy numerical integration
techniques or canned functions, and no simply adjusting parameters in an
existing model. The problem is that few of these students have ever written
a computer program before, and there isn't time to teach programming, much
less computer science, in the crowded physics course.

Python has proven to be adequately clean and simple that we can get
students up and running very quickly (we teach a very small subset of
Python -- what is a variable, an assignment statement, a while loop, and an
if statement). And VPython lets them make navigable 3D animations as a side
effect of their physics computations. For these students, in this course,
IDLE is the right editor to use. It comes with Python (or currently VIDLE
comes with VPython), and there's almost nothing to learn because all the
student will do with it is edit a program, run it, make changes, and run
again. Nothing about breakpoints or dealing with multiple files, etc.

On a loosely related topic, there is a long thread on the Brython forum
initiated by me that has led to the Brython people taking it as an
interesting challenge and use of Brython to make it possible to write
GlowScript programs in Python, by writing a Brython wrapper of the
GlowScript libraries, which are written in JavaScript:

https://groups.google.com/forum/?fromgroups&hl=en#!topic/brython/p2oz_BK1_3A

Billy Earney quickly mocked up a partial proof of concept that made it
possible for the first time to see something resembling Python using the
GlowScript libraries to display a rotating 3D cube, with mouse interactions
to rotate and zoom the camera. I'm delighted that they've taken an interest
in this.

Bruce



On Mon, Feb 10, 2014 at 7:32 PM, phil jones <interstar at gmail.com> wrote:

> But if I understand correctly, you're using VIDLE not IDLE? Or did I
> get that wrong?
>
>
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From guido at python.org  Tue Feb 11 05:34:56 2014
From: guido at python.org (Guido van Rossum)
Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2014 20:34:56 -0800
Subject: [Idle-dev] The Future of Python
In-Reply-To: <07956762-ADF3-439A-9916-50C4253F54DC@twistedmatrix.com>
References: <CAP97HnnqoGBKqApfcWvbwyN6LzmGmCCs7rQHTJpECOMSGu7gwA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAP7+vJJTSjCkNWOfbsUY5C62N-hUv9SGEf9PrBvXpF8Jc336dg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAFDG03gDxcjaxFUvM-PmU6sBH4YPb3mo_-kG=k=-n3zaP+s6sw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAP7+vJJ4uuTXAkAMhu+SvSgT5RkPDFtWOQef3UMGHS7tigGT8A@mail.gmail.com>
 <875FC0C9-F9A6-49FD-9915-6DF08F54DF44@twistedmatrix.com>
 <CAP7+vJ+=F-q1WUawJyoLq+HwrVP=WjV5TtMpeKvsVO5DxJd1Dw@mail.gmail.com>
 <07956762-ADF3-439A-9916-50C4253F54DC@twistedmatrix.com>
Message-ID: <CAP7+vJ+xji6krrJ0kKzt+ZM4JgxJmo-0mgQ-8aNp+_fZ4QasMg@mail.gmail.com>

You've convinced me that brython is interesting. I still think it would
require a miracle for it to become mainstream, but it has a better change
than pythonb.org. :-)


On Mon, Feb 10, 2014 at 3:35 PM, Glyph <glyph at twistedmatrix.com> wrote:

>
> On Feb 10, 2014, at 5:19 PM, Guido van Rossum <guido at python.org> wrote:
>
> Then we're doomed, because this is entirely political (the companies
> making browsers must want to do it).
>
>
> Not at all.  There are a number of promising proofs of concept,
> demonstrating different aspects of this problem: Pyjamas, the PyJS fork of
> Pyjamas, Skulpt, Empythoned (which actually compiles *CPython* to run in
> the browser with surprisingly reasonable performance!), Brython, and PyPy's
> now defunct JS backend to name a few.  With source maps, it's even possible
> to use native JavaScript debugging and profiling tools on Browser-hosted
> Python.
>
> The political problem is entirely based around getting the various
> interested parties together and trying to hammer out some kind of common
> core that they can all get running and contribute to, rather than
> duplicating tons and tons of effort and only ever getting to a 60% solution.
>
> Browser vendors seem perfectly happy to treat JavaScript as a compilation
> target; efforts like ASM.JS are in fact trying to formalize this process
> and provide support for it.  Most of these Py-to-JS converters work fine on
> mobile devices, too.
>
> Guido, if you haven't checked it out, <http://www.brython.info> is a
> *very* interesting demo: it literally makes <script type="text/python3">
> work in a web page, with nothing beyond a single JavaScript file include
> (no local compilation, no offline processing).  The only problem is that
> the language really isn't quite Python - see, for example, <
> https://bitbucket.org/olemis/brython/issue/147/generators-send-method-missed>.
>  But they've made a surprising amount of progress since I last checked, and
> they seem to be closing issues all the time :-).
>
> -glyph
>
>


-- 
--Guido van Rossum (python.org/~guido)
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From tjreedy at udel.edu  Tue Feb 11 15:06:21 2014
From: tjreedy at udel.edu (Terry Reedy)
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2014 09:06:21 -0500
Subject: [Idle-dev] The Future of Python
In-Reply-To: <CAP7+vJ+xji6krrJ0kKzt+ZM4JgxJmo-0mgQ-8aNp+_fZ4QasMg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAP97HnnqoGBKqApfcWvbwyN6LzmGmCCs7rQHTJpECOMSGu7gwA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAP7+vJJTSjCkNWOfbsUY5C62N-hUv9SGEf9PrBvXpF8Jc336dg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAFDG03gDxcjaxFUvM-PmU6sBH4YPb3mo_-kG=k=-n3zaP+s6sw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAP7+vJJ4uuTXAkAMhu+SvSgT5RkPDFtWOQef3UMGHS7tigGT8A@mail.gmail.com>
 <875FC0C9-F9A6-49FD-9915-6DF08F54DF44@twistedmatrix.com>
 <CAP7+vJ+=F-q1WUawJyoLq+HwrVP=WjV5TtMpeKvsVO5DxJd1Dw@mail.gmail.com>
 <07956762-ADF3-439A-9916-50C4253F54DC@twistedmatrix.com>
 <CAP7+vJ+xji6krrJ0kKzt+ZM4JgxJmo-0mgQ-8aNp+_fZ4QasMg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <lddap4$mt$1@ger.gmane.org>

On 2/10/2014 11:34 PM, Guido van Rossum wrote:
> You've convinced me that brython is interesting. I still think it would
> require a miracle for it to become mainstream, but it has a better
> change than pythonb.org <http://pythonb.org>. :-)

The Brython author posted to python-list for 'feedback' about a year or 
so ago, when Brython was in the 0.n (.8?) stage. *As I remember*, there 
were two problems, as least then, from a strict pythonista view.

1. It was (then, at least) intentionally not the same as Python. 
Moreover, the added syntax was distinctly not pythonic. As I remember, 
the non-Python syntax was not optional and ignorable, like Cython type 
hints, but pretty much required for interacting with the browser.

2. It was based on Py2 and its text model. To many of us, this seemed 
like a mistake for plugging in to unicode-based browsers and translation 
to a unicode-based javascript. Python 3's text=unicode model seems like 
a much better fit.

The author did not seem interested in suggestions for changing these 
design decisions.

-- 
Terry Jan Reedy


From breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk  Tue Feb 11 15:35:52 2014
From: breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk (Mark Lawrence)
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2014 14:35:52 +0000
Subject: [Idle-dev] The Future of Python
In-Reply-To: <CAP97HnnqoGBKqApfcWvbwyN6LzmGmCCs7rQHTJpECOMSGu7gwA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAP97HnnqoGBKqApfcWvbwyN6LzmGmCCs7rQHTJpECOMSGu7gwA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <lddcft$ed3$1@ger.gmane.org>

On 05/02/2014 20:36, phil jones wrote:
> Interesting video : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d1a4Jbjc-vU
>

Thank you so much for the link, I thought it was awesome, so much so 
that I've emailed Jessica expressing my gratitude for a fine piece of work.

-- 
My fellow Pythonistas, ask not what our language can do for you, ask 
what you can do for our language.

Mark Lawrence

---
This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active.
http://www.avast.com



From tjreedy at udel.edu  Tue Feb 11 16:06:53 2014
From: tjreedy at udel.edu (Terry Reedy)
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2014 10:06:53 -0500
Subject: [Idle-dev] The Future of Python
In-Reply-To: <875FC0C9-F9A6-49FD-9915-6DF08F54DF44@twistedmatrix.com>
References: <CAP97HnnqoGBKqApfcWvbwyN6LzmGmCCs7rQHTJpECOMSGu7gwA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAP7+vJJTSjCkNWOfbsUY5C62N-hUv9SGEf9PrBvXpF8Jc336dg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAFDG03gDxcjaxFUvM-PmU6sBH4YPb3mo_-kG=k=-n3zaP+s6sw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAP7+vJJ4uuTXAkAMhu+SvSgT5RkPDFtWOQef3UMGHS7tigGT8A@mail.gmail.com>
 <875FC0C9-F9A6-49FD-9915-6DF08F54DF44@twistedmatrix.com>
Message-ID: <lddeaj$fdt$1@ger.gmane.org>

On 2/10/2014 6:07 PM, Glyph wrote:

> And let me make a halfhearted attempt to bring this on-topic: it would
> be absolutely /amazing/ if IDLE actually had a plugin to allow you to
> write some HTML and some CSS and stuff so that new users could easily
> get up and running with something that looks "real" to modern students
> (i.e. a web page that they can share, not just some turtle graphics on a
> canvas).

I need more information to know what you are suggesting.

What do you see as the relation between Python and html that Idle should 
be html aware rather than C aware?  Why should one edit html in Idle 
rather that in one of the many Html Editor programs?  What would be 
Idle's competitive advantage in a crowded field? Is this idea predicated 
on having a means to run a subset of Python 3 in a browser?

Note 1: it would be trivial to have Idle recognize .xyz files, but it is 
currently a python-specific and non-python general text editor.
Note 2: I presume, but do not know, that an extension could effectively 
subclass EditorWindow and override some of the methods.

One can edit html now in an editor window as plain text. What additional 
behaviors would you add if Idle recognized .html?  Syntax highlight 
embedded Python (as already requested on the tracker)?  Syntax highlight 
html constructs (which would require an html parser)?  'Run' the file 
(F5) in a browser rather than in a shell?  (The existing webbrowser 
module would make this easy.)

What would be 'amazing' is a way to have a form displayed in either by 
python (tkinter) or a browser, or drawings and even animation displayed 
on either a tkinter Canvas or the HTML5 equivalent.

Note 3: Idle was intended to be open and extendable. It is, but... 
enabling and configuring an extension currently means editing the 
appropriate section of the extension configuration file (as opposed to 
the core configuration file) and running the risk of munging the file in 
way that stops Idle from starting. Five years ago, Tal Einat opened an 
issue and submitted a patch to add a extension configuration dialog to 
accompany the current core configuration dialog. Two weeks ago, he got 
my attention, convinced my that this is a good idea, and just submitted 
an updated patch. This should make 3rd party extensions easier to use.

-- 
Terry Jan Reedy


From tjreedy at udel.edu  Tue Feb 11 16:22:12 2014
From: tjreedy at udel.edu (Terry Reedy)
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2014 10:22:12 -0500
Subject: [Idle-dev] The Future of Python
In-Reply-To: <CAG08RyKSmeS0+aVZTBRHjMe4r2fFtT0jS1rnaQe=uqmF_JPwFg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAP97HnnqoGBKqApfcWvbwyN6LzmGmCCs7rQHTJpECOMSGu7gwA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAP7+vJJTSjCkNWOfbsUY5C62N-hUv9SGEf9PrBvXpF8Jc336dg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAFDG03gDxcjaxFUvM-PmU6sBH4YPb3mo_-kG=k=-n3zaP+s6sw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAP7+vJJ4uuTXAkAMhu+SvSgT5RkPDFtWOQef3UMGHS7tigGT8A@mail.gmail.com>
 <875FC0C9-F9A6-49FD-9915-6DF08F54DF44@twistedmatrix.com>
 <ldbo4g$t8h$1@ger.gmane.org>
 <CAG08RyKSmeS0+aVZTBRHjMe4r2fFtT0jS1rnaQe=uqmF_JPwFg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <lddf7b$rdq$1@ger.gmane.org>

On 2/10/2014 8:17 PM, Simon Forman wrote:
> On 2/10/14, Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
> [snip]
>>
>> It would be absolutely amazing what Terry Reedy et al were to achieve if
>> they were to be given a helping hand fixing the 122 outstanding IDLE
>> bugs prior to adding anything to it.

That is the actually number if one searches by selecting Idle as the 
component in Search Issues. There must be some bugs that are obsolete 
and feature requests that should be rejected. There will still be many left.

> Right, well, I've just gotten a hg checkout and I should have time
> this week to work on (and perhaps close) at least one issue.

I do not think I am supposed to apply non-critical patches until 3.4 is 
branched off from default.

> Recommendations for issues to work on?  (I don't have access to windows, so...)

What system *are* you on? One thing we specifically need at present is 
someone willing to confirm bugs and test patches on a Mac for issues 
that are not Mac-specific. (Ned Deily is pretty good about responding to 
Mac-specific issues.) But we also need more testers for *nix and Windows.

What are you most interested in doing?  Since you setup a repository and 
want to close issues, you might focus on existing patches.  If one does 
the Idle issue search with Keyword: patch added, 66 are returned.  There 
might be other issues with patches that do not have the keyword checked. 
  If you want hints, I could add 'sforman' as nosy on issues I am most 
interested in.

-- 
Terry Jan Reedy


From tjreedy at udel.edu  Tue Feb 11 16:26:18 2014
From: tjreedy at udel.edu (Terry Reedy)
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2014 10:26:18 -0500
Subject: [Idle-dev] The Future of Python
In-Reply-To: <CAFDG03irCufX_zaNO-LncoDuTiSHOhnXhFvM630=wm8s0JHD6Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAP97HnnqoGBKqApfcWvbwyN6LzmGmCCs7rQHTJpECOMSGu7gwA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAP7+vJJTSjCkNWOfbsUY5C62N-hUv9SGEf9PrBvXpF8Jc336dg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAFDG03gDxcjaxFUvM-PmU6sBH4YPb3mo_-kG=k=-n3zaP+s6sw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAP7+vJJ4uuTXAkAMhu+SvSgT5RkPDFtWOQef3UMGHS7tigGT8A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAOFf2a2D=t39P+hPEwLN+zxiG_Uba5JT=Y7wauc5QM_8CDOLkA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAP97Hnm-+1xbu57y6wRtqcWSUjd-YKy5HLo2Xy4NhkCTfKALXA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAG08Ry+kxhBS30zqawxR6m=zNqZ=8th8Eu826_1MKhWJaRpc4w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAP7+vJKEptuaTJZzDKeCJVyaupR8v_Ee9x36Gd7ab45R00S_dA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAFDG03h7wnoq=FHNX-NxcJzUdWmO+EKm91enhDRDKbY3-7xFLA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAP97HnmeNxqtjLU6BVTJ4eF0_yTqrH2qi3NWqmtQEL1hSHg3eA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAFDG03j1HO3b1TcWks8XzWBBp0Rn=4jUZWFV_U9Ab1Lw5Zpntw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAP97HnkRntoRMtf1m+FMkjjPJ6FKyw3sL9Hk9FQRz0_Ok+TMqw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAFDG03irCufX_zaNO-LncoDuTiSHOhnXhFvM630=wm8s0JHD6Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <lddff1$uqf$1@ger.gmane.org>

On 2/10/2014 10:12 PM, Bruce Sherwood wrote:
> Yes, we're currently using VIDLE, but the differences between VIDLE and
> IDLE are not significant in the context of the criticisms of IDLE, and
> moreover, thanks to Terry's and other work, I'm hopeful that it will
> soon be possible to abandon VIDLE.

What are the Vidle features not in Idle that you consider 'must-have' in 
order to make the switch? If more than one, try giving them priorities. 
Are feature requests already on the tracker?

-- 
Terry Jan Reedy


From interstar at gmail.com  Tue Feb 11 17:12:12 2014
From: interstar at gmail.com (phil jones)
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2014 14:12:12 -0200
Subject: [Idle-dev] IDLE dev FAQ
Message-ID: <CAP97Hn=uw6LC5sq1jgMuTYXbYf-Vixvm1cQEhkj3JjQqfYYGCA@mail.gmail.com>

OK.

so I wrote some suggestions to Guido and he, understandably, told me
to stop bothering him and bother the community instead.

I figured that one thing I'm complaining about is the absense of a FAQ
for IDLE development.  I assume there isn't one (or is there? where?).
So I thought I'd have a go at compiling one.

I have a list of questions, and I'm wondering if people on the list
can help me fill it in? Then I'll host it somewhere, but ideally it
would be good to get it onto the python.org site.

So the current questions I'd like to have in the FAQ.

Q : Where can I check-out the current state of IDLE development?

A : ...

Q : Who do I submit patches to?

A : Terry Reedy (I guess).

Q : How can I signal that I have a patch for someone to look at?

A : @Terry. Is this by email? Is there some equivalent to the github
"pull request" on the Python Mercurial repository?

Q : Where can I see current IDLE bugs that need fixing?

A : http://bugs.python.org/issue?search_text=idle&submit=search

Q : Where does the main discussion about IDLE development take place?

A : Here on IDLE-dev? : https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/idle-dev

More as I think of them.

cheers

Phil

From glyph at twistedmatrix.com  Tue Feb 11 17:30:26 2014
From: glyph at twistedmatrix.com (Glyph)
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2014 10:30:26 -0600
Subject: [Idle-dev] The Future of Python
In-Reply-To: <lddeaj$fdt$1@ger.gmane.org>
References: <CAP97HnnqoGBKqApfcWvbwyN6LzmGmCCs7rQHTJpECOMSGu7gwA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAP7+vJJTSjCkNWOfbsUY5C62N-hUv9SGEf9PrBvXpF8Jc336dg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAFDG03gDxcjaxFUvM-PmU6sBH4YPb3mo_-kG=k=-n3zaP+s6sw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAP7+vJJ4uuTXAkAMhu+SvSgT5RkPDFtWOQef3UMGHS7tigGT8A@mail.gmail.com>
 <875FC0C9-F9A6-49FD-9915-6DF08F54DF44@twistedmatrix.com>
 <lddeaj$fdt$1@ger.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <5A5DEF60-9183-4B70-B2C2-AD842C22878C@twistedmatrix.com>


On Feb 11, 2014, at 9:06 AM, Terry Reedy <tjreedy at udel.edu> wrote:

> On 2/10/2014 6:07 PM, Glyph wrote:
> 
>> And let me make a halfhearted attempt to bring this on-topic: it would
>> be absolutely /amazing/ if IDLE actually had a plugin to allow you to
>> write some HTML and some CSS and stuff so that new users could easily
>> get up and running with something that looks "real" to modern students
>> (i.e. a web page that they can share, not just some turtle graphics on a
>> canvas).
> 
> I need more information to know what you are suggesting.
> 
> What do you see as the relation between Python and html that Idle should be html aware rather than C aware?

It's not so mucha bout the relationship between Python and HTML, but rather between HTML and the average prospective student.  HTML is a terrible language, CSS is worse, but HTML+CSS is where the students "live" - basically everyone in the world is familiar with web pages at this point in history, so allowing them to create visual (or textual, for those with vision impairment, who will still be familiar with web browsers!) experiences that directly correspond to things they're familiar with will drive home the relevance of "CP4E".

> Why should one edit html in Idle rather that in one of the many Html Editor programs?

Why should one edit Python in Idle, for that matter? ;-)  For Python it integrates the module editing with an interactive shell; the same could be true for HTML.

> What would be Idle's competitive advantage in a crowded field?

Integration.  Idle is positioned as a simple, effective editor for learners, and smoothing the somewhat bumpy road between Python and the mess of browser technologies (HTML/CSS/JS/how do I run a server/how do I get a database created) would make it possible for learners to create whole systems that are directly useful and relevant to them.

I'm not suggesting that IDLE become a sophisticated HTML workflow tool for teams or anything like that - just that it have a basic, opinionated workflow available to ease the transition from simple input-output text programs to simple web-based things.  Let me be clear: to make this a complete package, you'd need to have better feedback than I'm able to provide from a real educator.

> Is this idea predicated on having a means to run a subset of Python 3 in a browser?

Not entirely; one still might be able to do something interesting and interactive by having Idle run a web server and having a local web browser (or HTML view, if such a thing were possible) and having server-side Python generate some HTML.

> Note 1: it would be trivial to have Idle recognize .xyz files, but it is currently a python-specific and non-python general text editor.

What is a '.xyz' file?

> Note 2: I presume, but do not know, that an extension could effectively subclass EditorWindow and override some of the methods.
> 
> One can edit html now in an editor window as plain text. What additional behaviors would you add if Idle recognized .html?  Syntax highlight embedded Python (as already requested on the tracker)?

Yup, that would be great.

> Syntax highlight html constructs (which would require an html parser)?

Yes, this would also be useful.  html5lib is one simple 'pip install' away...

> 'Run' the file (F5) in a browser rather than in a shell?  (The existing webbrowser module would make this easy.)

That would be good too.

> What would be 'amazing' is a way to have a form displayed in either by python (tkinter) or a browser, or drawings and even animation displayed on either a tkinter Canvas or the HTML5 equivalent.

+1 to that as well.

Tempting as it is to talk about the stuff related to extensions that was a bit afield of my point so I'll refrain ;-).

-g
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From tjreedy at udel.edu  Tue Feb 11 19:52:30 2014
From: tjreedy at udel.edu (Terry Reedy)
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2014 13:52:30 -0500
Subject: [Idle-dev] IDLE dev FAQ
In-Reply-To: <CAP97Hn=uw6LC5sq1jgMuTYXbYf-Vixvm1cQEhkj3JjQqfYYGCA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAP97Hn=uw6LC5sq1jgMuTYXbYf-Vixvm1cQEhkj3JjQqfYYGCA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <lddrhk$sdl$1@ger.gmane.org>

On 2/11/2014 11:12 AM, phil jones wrote:

> I wrote some suggestions to Guido and he, understandably, told me
> to stop bothering him and bother the community instead.
>
> I figured that one thing I'm complaining about is the absense of a FAQ
> for IDLE development.  I assume there isn't one (or is there? where?).
> So I thought I'd have a go at compiling one.
>
> I have a list of questions, and I'm wondering if people on the list
> can help me fill it in? Then I'll host it somewhere, but ideally it
> would be good to get it onto the python.org site.
>
> So the current questions I'd like to have in the FAQ.
>
> Q : Where can I check-out the current state of IDLE development?

What does 'current state of Idle development' mean to you.

> A : ...
>
> Q : Who do I submit patches to?

The tracker.
>
> A : Terry Reedy (I guess).

As of now, add terry.reedy as nosy.

> Q : How can I signal that I have a patch for someone to look at?

Upload a patch to an issue. All people on the nosy list get notified.
Mark keyword 'patch' so the issue appears on this search.

http://bugs.python.org/issue?%40search_text=&ignore=file%3Acontent&title=&%40columns=title&id=&%40columns=id&stage=&creation=&creator=&activity=&%40columns=activity&%40sort=activity&actor=&nosy=&type=&components=6&versions=&dependencies=&assignee=&keywords=2&priority=&%40group=priority&status=1&%40columns=status&resolution=&nosy_count=&message_count=&%40pagesize=50&%40startwith=0&%40queryname=&%40old-queryname=&%40action=search

Trimmed and possibly not correct (I do not understand the %40s, nor how 
much the order matters):
http://bugs.python.org/issue?components=6&keywords=2&status=1&%40columns=id&%40columns=activity&%40columns=title&%40group=priority&%40sort=activity&%40action=search

> A : @Terry. Is this by email? Is there some equivalent to the github
> "pull request" on the Python Mercurial repository?

No.

> Q : Where can I see current IDLE bugs that need fixing?
>
> A : http://bugs.python.org/issue?search_text=idle&submit=search

This returns 32000 hits, most closed, and most not about Idle. Use 
component=6 instead. This also returns a table with a column for every 
field. That would be most useful as input that makes a custom condensed 
table or summary. The standard condensed table (but without status = 
open on every line) would be the same as above without &keywords=2.

> Q : Where does the main discussion about IDLE development take place?
>
> A : Here on IDLE-dev? : https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/idle-dev

Only if the PSF Code of Conduct applies to this list and personal 
attacks are not tolerated.

-- 
Terry Jan Reedy


From Bruce_Sherwood at ncsu.edu  Tue Feb 11 18:00:00 2014
From: Bruce_Sherwood at ncsu.edu (Bruce Sherwood)
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2014 10:00:00 -0700
Subject: [Idle-dev] The Future of Python
In-Reply-To: <lddff1$uqf$1@ger.gmane.org>
References: <CAP97HnnqoGBKqApfcWvbwyN6LzmGmCCs7rQHTJpECOMSGu7gwA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAP7+vJJTSjCkNWOfbsUY5C62N-hUv9SGEf9PrBvXpF8Jc336dg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAFDG03gDxcjaxFUvM-PmU6sBH4YPb3mo_-kG=k=-n3zaP+s6sw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAP7+vJJ4uuTXAkAMhu+SvSgT5RkPDFtWOQef3UMGHS7tigGT8A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAOFf2a2D=t39P+hPEwLN+zxiG_Uba5JT=Y7wauc5QM_8CDOLkA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAP97Hnm-+1xbu57y6wRtqcWSUjd-YKy5HLo2Xy4NhkCTfKALXA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAG08Ry+kxhBS30zqawxR6m=zNqZ=8th8Eu826_1MKhWJaRpc4w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAP7+vJKEptuaTJZzDKeCJVyaupR8v_Ee9x36Gd7ab45R00S_dA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAFDG03h7wnoq=FHNX-NxcJzUdWmO+EKm91enhDRDKbY3-7xFLA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAP97HnmeNxqtjLU6BVTJ4eF0_yTqrH2qi3NWqmtQEL1hSHg3eA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAFDG03j1HO3b1TcWks8XzWBBp0Rn=4jUZWFV_U9Ab1Lw5Zpntw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAP97HnkRntoRMtf1m+FMkjjPJ6FKyw3sL9Hk9FQRz0_Ok+TMqw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAFDG03irCufX_zaNO-LncoDuTiSHOhnXhFvM630=wm8s0JHD6Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <lddff1$uqf$1@ger.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <CAFDG03jGj-+=a4GQqWAStv4pz-5-Uym4m_zx_RmU=ENhS6RGNg@mail.gmail.com>

Good question, Terry. I just installed Python 2.7.6 (Nov. 10, 2013), and
there are two issues with its IDLE. I don't know whether you're referring
to this IDLE or to an experimental version (and I've mislaid the
instructions for how to get the experimental version).

The two issues in Python 2.7.6 in order of importance are these:

(1) atexit isn't honored when I run from IDLE. I've copied Steve
Spicklemire to ask him to comment on this issue, as it was he who last year
had an exchange with the IDLE development community about this, and I think
he said at the time that the bug was acknowledged, but I don't know where
the bug is documented. Steve addressed this problem in VIDLE.

(2) http://bugs.python.org/issue19042 -- this excellent proposal by you
isn't in Python 2.7.6.

The importance of issue (1) for us is that the big change in VPython last
year, carried out by Steve and me, was to base VPython on wxPython. It was
essential to use atexit to keep the VPython graphics window alive at the
end of a user's program, but when running from IDLE somehow atexit doesn't
function.

Bruce


On Tue, Feb 11, 2014 at 8:26 AM, Terry Reedy <tjreedy at udel.edu> wrote:

> On 2/10/2014 10:12 PM, Bruce Sherwood wrote:
>
>> Yes, we're currently using VIDLE, but the differences between VIDLE and
>> IDLE are not significant in the context of the criticisms of IDLE, and
>> moreover, thanks to Terry's and other work, I'm hopeful that it will
>> soon be possible to abandon VIDLE.
>>
>
> What are the Vidle features not in Idle that you consider 'must-have' in
> order to make the switch? If more than one, try giving them priorities. Are
> feature requests already on the tracker?
>
> --
> Terry Jan Reedy
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> IDLE-dev mailing list
> IDLE-dev at python.org
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/idle-dev
>
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From forman.simon at gmail.com  Tue Feb 11 19:57:58 2014
From: forman.simon at gmail.com (Simon Forman)
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2014 10:57:58 -0800
Subject: [Idle-dev] The Future of Python
In-Reply-To: <lddf7b$rdq$1@ger.gmane.org>
References: <CAP97HnnqoGBKqApfcWvbwyN6LzmGmCCs7rQHTJpECOMSGu7gwA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAP7+vJJTSjCkNWOfbsUY5C62N-hUv9SGEf9PrBvXpF8Jc336dg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAFDG03gDxcjaxFUvM-PmU6sBH4YPb3mo_-kG=k=-n3zaP+s6sw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAP7+vJJ4uuTXAkAMhu+SvSgT5RkPDFtWOQef3UMGHS7tigGT8A@mail.gmail.com>
 <875FC0C9-F9A6-49FD-9915-6DF08F54DF44@twistedmatrix.com>
 <ldbo4g$t8h$1@ger.gmane.org>
 <CAG08RyKSmeS0+aVZTBRHjMe4r2fFtT0jS1rnaQe=uqmF_JPwFg@mail.gmail.com>
 <lddf7b$rdq$1@ger.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <CAG08RyJd8d4VsZ=JjM+rQ4CeRR6k51gMwFEU3-rPkKE93sH5SQ@mail.gmail.com>

On 2/11/14, Terry Reedy <tjreedy at udel.edu> wrote:
> On 2/10/2014 8:17 PM, Simon Forman wrote:
>> On 2/10/14, Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>> [snip]
>>>
>>> It would be absolutely amazing what Terry Reedy et al were to achieve if
>>> they were to be given a helping hand fixing the 122 outstanding IDLE
>>> bugs prior to adding anything to it.
>
> That is the actually number if one searches by selecting Idle as the
> component in Search Issues. There must be some bugs that are obsolete
> and feature requests that should be rejected. There will still be many
> left.
>
>> Right, well, I've just gotten a hg checkout and I should have time
>> this week to work on (and perhaps close) at least one issue.
>
> I do not think I am supposed to apply non-critical patches until 3.4 is
> branched off from default.
>
>> Recommendations for issues to work on?  (I don't have access to windows,
>> so...)
>
> What system *are* you on? One thing we specifically need at present is
> someone willing to confirm bugs and test patches on a Mac for issues
> that are not Mac-specific. (Ned Deily is pretty good about responding to
> Mac-specific issues.) But we also need more testers for *nix and Windows.
>
> What are you most interested in doing?  Since you setup a repository and
> want to close issues, you might focus on existing patches.  If one does
> the Idle issue search with Keyword: patch added, 66 are returned.  There
> might be other issues with patches that do not have the keyword checked.
>   If you want hints, I could add 'sforman' as nosy on issues I am most
> interested in.

I'm running Ubuntu 12.04 LTS.  I have a friend with a mac who is
interested in learning Python.  I'll let you know if I can rope him
in. ;-)

I'm most interested in doing whatever would be most helpful (and
within my abilities.)

For issues with existing patches the task is review and testing?

I just doubled checked that I can log in to the issue tracker with
sforman, please go ahead and add me to issues of interest.

Warm regards,
~Simon






-- 
http://twitter.com/SimonForman
My blog: http://firequery.blogspot.com/
Also my blog: http://calroc.blogspot.com/



"The history of mankind for the last four centuries is rather like that of
an imprisoned sleeper, stirring clumsily and uneasily while the prison that
restrains and shelters him catches fire, not waking but incorporating the
crackling and warmth of the fire with ancient and incongruous dreams, than
like that of a man consciously awake to danger and opportunity."
--H. P. Wells, "A Short History of the World"

From forman.simon at gmail.com  Tue Feb 11 20:03:53 2014
From: forman.simon at gmail.com (Simon Forman)
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2014 11:03:53 -0800
Subject: [Idle-dev] The Future of Python
In-Reply-To: <5A5DEF60-9183-4B70-B2C2-AD842C22878C@twistedmatrix.com>
References: <CAP97HnnqoGBKqApfcWvbwyN6LzmGmCCs7rQHTJpECOMSGu7gwA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAP7+vJJTSjCkNWOfbsUY5C62N-hUv9SGEf9PrBvXpF8Jc336dg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAFDG03gDxcjaxFUvM-PmU6sBH4YPb3mo_-kG=k=-n3zaP+s6sw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAP7+vJJ4uuTXAkAMhu+SvSgT5RkPDFtWOQef3UMGHS7tigGT8A@mail.gmail.com>
 <875FC0C9-F9A6-49FD-9915-6DF08F54DF44@twistedmatrix.com>
 <lddeaj$fdt$1@ger.gmane.org>
 <5A5DEF60-9183-4B70-B2C2-AD842C22878C@twistedmatrix.com>
Message-ID: <CAG08Ry+4LyhDw2Ym7rWjJtg-6axy8xa0NFgeQD1UFz_69dA0hQ@mail.gmail.com>

On 2/11/14, Glyph <glyph at twistedmatrix.com> wrote:
>
> On Feb 11, 2014, at 9:06 AM, Terry Reedy <tjreedy at udel.edu> wrote:
>
>> On 2/10/2014 6:07 PM, Glyph wrote:
>>
>>> And let me make a halfhearted attempt to bring this on-topic: it would
>>> be absolutely /amazing/ if IDLE actually had a plugin to allow you to
>>> write some HTML and some CSS and stuff so that new users could easily
>>> get up and running with something that looks "real" to modern students
>>> (i.e. a web page that they can share, not just some turtle graphics on a
>>> canvas).
>>
>> I need more information to know what you are suggesting.
>>
>> What do you see as the relation between Python and html that Idle should
>> be html aware rather than C aware?
>
> It's not so mucha bout the relationship between Python and HTML, but rather
> between HTML and the average prospective student.  HTML is a terrible
> language, CSS is worse, but HTML+CSS is where the students "live" -
> basically everyone in the world is familiar with web pages at this point in
> history, so allowing them to create visual (or textual, for those with
> vision impairment, who will still be familiar with web browsers!)
> experiences that directly correspond to things they're familiar with will
> drive home the relevance of "CP4E".
>
>> Why should one edit html in Idle rather that in one of the many Html
>> Editor programs?
>
> Why should one edit Python in Idle, for that matter? ;-)  For Python it
> integrates the module editing with an interactive shell; the same could be
> true for HTML.
>
>> What would be Idle's competitive advantage in a crowded field?
>
> Integration.  Idle is positioned as a simple, effective editor for learners,
> and smoothing the somewhat bumpy road between Python and the mess of browser
> technologies (HTML/CSS/JS/how do I run a server/how do I get a database
> created) would make it possible for learners to create whole systems that
> are directly useful and relevant to them.
>
> I'm not suggesting that IDLE become a sophisticated HTML workflow tool for
> teams or anything like that - just that it have a basic, opinionated
> workflow available to ease the transition from simple input-output text
> programs to simple web-based things.  Let me be clear: to make this a
> complete package, you'd need to have better feedback than I'm able to
> provide from a real educator.
>
>> Is this idea predicated on having a means to run a subset of Python 3 in a
>> browser?
>
> Not entirely; one still might be able to do something interesting and
> interactive by having Idle run a web server and having a local web browser
> (or HTML view, if such a thing were possible) and having server-side Python
> generate some HTML.
>
>> Note 1: it would be trivial to have Idle recognize .xyz files, but it is
>> currently a python-specific and non-python general text editor.
>
> What is a '.xyz' file?
>
>> Note 2: I presume, but do not know, that an extension could effectively
>> subclass EditorWindow and override some of the methods.
>>
>> One can edit html now in an editor window as plain text. What additional
>> behaviors would you add if Idle recognized .html?  Syntax highlight
>> embedded Python (as already requested on the tracker)?
>
> Yup, that would be great.
>
>> Syntax highlight html constructs (which would require an html parser)?
>
> Yes, this would also be useful.  html5lib is one simple 'pip install'
> away...
>
>> 'Run' the file (F5) in a browser rather than in a shell?  (The existing
>> webbrowser module would make this easy.)
>
> That would be good too.
>
>> What would be 'amazing' is a way to have a form displayed in either by
>> python (tkinter) or a browser, or drawings and even animation displayed on
>> either a tkinter Canvas or the HTML5 equivalent.
>
> +1 to that as well.
>
> Tempting as it is to talk about the stuff related to extensions that was a
> bit afield of my point so I'll refrain ;-).
>
> -g



Reminds me of Light Table http://www.lighttable.com/











-- 
http://twitter.com/SimonForman
My blog: http://firequery.blogspot.com/
Also my blog: http://calroc.blogspot.com/



"The history of mankind for the last four centuries is rather like that of
an imprisoned sleeper, stirring clumsily and uneasily while the prison that
restrains and shelters him catches fire, not waking but incorporating the
crackling and warmth of the fire with ancient and incongruous dreams, than
like that of a man consciously awake to danger and opportunity."
--H. P. Wells, "A Short History of the World"

From interstar at gmail.com  Tue Feb 11 21:44:24 2014
From: interstar at gmail.com (phil jones)
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2014 18:44:24 -0200
Subject: [Idle-dev] IDLE dev FAQ
In-Reply-To: <lddrhk$sdl$1@ger.gmane.org>
References: <CAP97Hn=uw6LC5sq1jgMuTYXbYf-Vixvm1cQEhkj3JjQqfYYGCA@mail.gmail.com>
 <lddrhk$sdl$1@ger.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <CAP97Hn=cytL2_vMVQ4juEi+d9JpyUV-6LKxBUjopcC8pKskv1g@mail.gmail.com>

Hi Terry,

thanks for the response. Replies interspersed below :

On 11 February 2014 16:52, Terry Reedy <tjreedy at udel.edu> wrote:

>> Q : Where can I check-out the current state of IDLE development?
> What does 'current state of Idle development' mean to you.

Well, I'd assume it's like this. Suppose there were two people (the
infamous Alice and Bob) working with you on the software. Each of them
is fixing bugs and submitting patches to you.

But you'd ideally want them both to be as much in sync with each other
as possible. So that Alice isn't doing things that are incompatible
with the changes that Bob is making. (Particularly if there's
refactoring going on, like you've been talking about with
consolidating many small files into fewer larger ones.)

So on the one hand you would want Alice and Bob to be pulling each
other's changes as frequently as possible. On the other, you might
want to have some role as a gatekeeper in case Bob starts making
changes that you think the community wouldn't agree with.
Finally, the changes that Alice and Bob are making are not yet fully
tested on all platforms and so not necessarily accepted into the main
Python release yet.

So I'd assume there's a repo somewhere which is a kind of reference
point for "current development release", it's something you gatekeep
enough that Alice and Bob know that what's been accepted to it is part
of the plan for what will go into the final release, and they can keep
pulling from it to keep their development environments up-to-date.

If you don't have something like this, then Bob has to wait until
Alice's patch has gone all the way through acceptance into the release
(which may take years) before he can see it and work against it.

So that's the question. Where is the equivalent of  *that* repository
for IDLE? Is it just http://hg.python.org/cpython ?

Or is that main cpython repo for patches that have undergone the full
testing on all platforms, and are ready for release? If so, how can
multiple contributors co-ordinate with each other?

> This returns 32000 hits, most closed, and most not about Idle. Use component=6 instead.
> This also returns a table with a column for every field. That would be most useful as input
> that makes a custom condensed table or summary. The standard condensed table (but
> without status = open on every line) would be the same as above without &keywords=2.

OK. Thanks. Yes, trying to figure out what's the right arguments are
for the search URL.

> Only if the PSF Code of Conduct applies to this list and personal attacks
> are not tolerated.

I assume you mean that if you aren't prepared to to follow the code of
conduct you aren't welcome on this list? Not that there's a different
space somewhere else where people are talking about IDLE?

On this note, I was looking at http://bugs.python.org/issue17390 and I
saw you wrote this :

Edmond: please fill in, sign, and send by your preferred method a PSF
Contributor Agreement
http://www.python.org/psf/contrib/contrib-form/ (back up a level for
more explanation)

For a patch more complicated than this, the CA would now be required
before applying a patch of yours.

What does this mean exactly?

BTW : Here's the work-in-progress on the FAQ, temporarily on github :
https://github.com/interstar/idle-dev-faq

cheers

Phil

From ether.joe at gmail.com  Tue Feb 11 22:33:22 2014
From: ether.joe at gmail.com (Sean Felipe Wolfe)
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2014 13:33:22 -0800
Subject: [Idle-dev] IDLE dev FAQ
In-Reply-To: <CAP97Hn=cytL2_vMVQ4juEi+d9JpyUV-6LKxBUjopcC8pKskv1g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAP97Hn=uw6LC5sq1jgMuTYXbYf-Vixvm1cQEhkj3JjQqfYYGCA@mail.gmail.com>
 <lddrhk$sdl$1@ger.gmane.org>
 <CAP97Hn=cytL2_vMVQ4juEi+d9JpyUV-6LKxBUjopcC8pKskv1g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAOFf2a0QwZ-PVqTHZZJTahyoTaUBmJJcZC8v3TJtbLDduApvcw@mail.gmail.com>

How about a page for development of idle? IIRC this has been discussed
before -- I'm all for it. Maybe idle.python.org?





On Tue, Feb 11, 2014 at 12:44 PM, phil jones <interstar at gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi Terry,
>
> thanks for the response. Replies interspersed below :
>
> On 11 February 2014 16:52, Terry Reedy <tjreedy at udel.edu> wrote:
>
>>> Q : Where can I check-out the current state of IDLE development?
>> What does 'current state of Idle development' mean to you.
>
> Well, I'd assume it's like this. Suppose there were two people (the
> infamous Alice and Bob) working with you on the software. Each of them
> is fixing bugs and submitting patches to you.
>
> But you'd ideally want them both to be as much in sync with each other
> as possible. So that Alice isn't doing things that are incompatible
> with the changes that Bob is making. (Particularly if there's
> refactoring going on, like you've been talking about with
> consolidating many small files into fewer larger ones.)
>
> So on the one hand you would want Alice and Bob to be pulling each
> other's changes as frequently as possible. On the other, you might
> want to have some role as a gatekeeper in case Bob starts making
> changes that you think the community wouldn't agree with.
> Finally, the changes that Alice and Bob are making are not yet fully
> tested on all platforms and so not necessarily accepted into the main
> Python release yet.
>
> So I'd assume there's a repo somewhere which is a kind of reference
> point for "current development release", it's something you gatekeep
> enough that Alice and Bob know that what's been accepted to it is part
> of the plan for what will go into the final release, and they can keep
> pulling from it to keep their development environments up-to-date.
>
> If you don't have something like this, then Bob has to wait until
> Alice's patch has gone all the way through acceptance into the release
> (which may take years) before he can see it and work against it.
>
> So that's the question. Where is the equivalent of  *that* repository
> for IDLE? Is it just http://hg.python.org/cpython ?
>
> Or is that main cpython repo for patches that have undergone the full
> testing on all platforms, and are ready for release? If so, how can
> multiple contributors co-ordinate with each other?
>
>> This returns 32000 hits, most closed, and most not about Idle. Use component=6 instead.
>> This also returns a table with a column for every field. That would be most useful as input
>> that makes a custom condensed table or summary. The standard condensed table (but
>> without status = open on every line) would be the same as above without &keywords=2.
>
> OK. Thanks. Yes, trying to figure out what's the right arguments are
> for the search URL.
>
>> Only if the PSF Code of Conduct applies to this list and personal attacks
>> are not tolerated.
>
> I assume you mean that if you aren't prepared to to follow the code of
> conduct you aren't welcome on this list? Not that there's a different
> space somewhere else where people are talking about IDLE?
>
> On this note, I was looking at http://bugs.python.org/issue17390 and I
> saw you wrote this :
>
> Edmond: please fill in, sign, and send by your preferred method a PSF
> Contributor Agreement
> http://www.python.org/psf/contrib/contrib-form/ (back up a level for
> more explanation)
>
> For a patch more complicated than this, the CA would now be required
> before applying a patch of yours.
>
> What does this mean exactly?
>
> BTW : Here's the work-in-progress on the FAQ, temporarily on github :
> https://github.com/interstar/idle-dev-faq
>
> cheers
>
> Phil
> _______________________________________________
> IDLE-dev mailing list
> IDLE-dev at python.org
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/idle-dev



-- 
A musician must make music, an artist must paint, a poet must write,
if he is to be ultimately at peace with himself.
- Abraham Maslow

From interstar at gmail.com  Tue Feb 11 22:52:18 2014
From: interstar at gmail.com (phil jones)
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2014 19:52:18 -0200
Subject: [Idle-dev] IDLE dev FAQ
In-Reply-To: <CAOFf2a0QwZ-PVqTHZZJTahyoTaUBmJJcZC8v3TJtbLDduApvcw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAP97Hn=uw6LC5sq1jgMuTYXbYf-Vixvm1cQEhkj3JjQqfYYGCA@mail.gmail.com>
 <lddrhk$sdl$1@ger.gmane.org>
 <CAP97Hn=cytL2_vMVQ4juEi+d9JpyUV-6LKxBUjopcC8pKskv1g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAOFf2a0QwZ-PVqTHZZJTahyoTaUBmJJcZC8v3TJtbLDduApvcw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAP97Hn=rXtHfkVD4NtPAm4ALqh2tz88Ad1=cktCy6MTebxPqZQ@mail.gmail.com>

Yes.

Well that's the end-game. If we can make a decent resource then maybe
we can persuade someone to get it onto the python.org site.

Phil


On 11 February 2014 19:33, Sean Felipe Wolfe <ether.joe at gmail.com> wrote:
> How about a page for development of idle? IIRC this has been discussed
> before -- I'm all for it. Maybe idle.python.org?
>
>
>
>
>
> On Tue, Feb 11, 2014 at 12:44 PM, phil jones <interstar at gmail.com> wrote:
>> Hi Terry,
>>
>> thanks for the response. Replies interspersed below :
>>
>> On 11 February 2014 16:52, Terry Reedy <tjreedy at udel.edu> wrote:
>>
>>>> Q : Where can I check-out the current state of IDLE development?
>>> What does 'current state of Idle development' mean to you.
>>
>> Well, I'd assume it's like this. Suppose there were two people (the
>> infamous Alice and Bob) working with you on the software. Each of them
>> is fixing bugs and submitting patches to you.
>>
>> But you'd ideally want them both to be as much in sync with each other
>> as possible. So that Alice isn't doing things that are incompatible
>> with the changes that Bob is making. (Particularly if there's
>> refactoring going on, like you've been talking about with
>> consolidating many small files into fewer larger ones.)
>>
>> So on the one hand you would want Alice and Bob to be pulling each
>> other's changes as frequently as possible. On the other, you might
>> want to have some role as a gatekeeper in case Bob starts making
>> changes that you think the community wouldn't agree with.
>> Finally, the changes that Alice and Bob are making are not yet fully
>> tested on all platforms and so not necessarily accepted into the main
>> Python release yet.
>>
>> So I'd assume there's a repo somewhere which is a kind of reference
>> point for "current development release", it's something you gatekeep
>> enough that Alice and Bob know that what's been accepted to it is part
>> of the plan for what will go into the final release, and they can keep
>> pulling from it to keep their development environments up-to-date.
>>
>> If you don't have something like this, then Bob has to wait until
>> Alice's patch has gone all the way through acceptance into the release
>> (which may take years) before he can see it and work against it.
>>
>> So that's the question. Where is the equivalent of  *that* repository
>> for IDLE? Is it just http://hg.python.org/cpython ?
>>
>> Or is that main cpython repo for patches that have undergone the full
>> testing on all platforms, and are ready for release? If so, how can
>> multiple contributors co-ordinate with each other?
>>
>>> This returns 32000 hits, most closed, and most not about Idle. Use component=6 instead.
>>> This also returns a table with a column for every field. That would be most useful as input
>>> that makes a custom condensed table or summary. The standard condensed table (but
>>> without status = open on every line) would be the same as above without &keywords=2.
>>
>> OK. Thanks. Yes, trying to figure out what's the right arguments are
>> for the search URL.
>>
>>> Only if the PSF Code of Conduct applies to this list and personal attacks
>>> are not tolerated.
>>
>> I assume you mean that if you aren't prepared to to follow the code of
>> conduct you aren't welcome on this list? Not that there's a different
>> space somewhere else where people are talking about IDLE?
>>
>> On this note, I was looking at http://bugs.python.org/issue17390 and I
>> saw you wrote this :
>>
>> Edmond: please fill in, sign, and send by your preferred method a PSF
>> Contributor Agreement
>> http://www.python.org/psf/contrib/contrib-form/ (back up a level for
>> more explanation)
>>
>> For a patch more complicated than this, the CA would now be required
>> before applying a patch of yours.
>>
>> What does this mean exactly?
>>
>> BTW : Here's the work-in-progress on the FAQ, temporarily on github :
>> https://github.com/interstar/idle-dev-faq
>>
>> cheers
>>
>> Phil
>> _______________________________________________
>> IDLE-dev mailing list
>> IDLE-dev at python.org
>> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/idle-dev
>
>
>
> --
> A musician must make music, an artist must paint, a poet must write,
> if he is to be ultimately at peace with himself.
> - Abraham Maslow

From nad at acm.org  Tue Feb 11 23:47:22 2014
From: nad at acm.org (Ned Deily)
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2014 14:47:22 -0800
Subject: [Idle-dev] IDLE dev FAQ
References: <CAP97Hn=uw6LC5sq1jgMuTYXbYf-Vixvm1cQEhkj3JjQqfYYGCA@mail.gmail.com>
 <lddrhk$sdl$1@ger.gmane.org>
 <CAP97Hn=cytL2_vMVQ4juEi+d9JpyUV-6LKxBUjopcC8pKskv1g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAOFf2a0QwZ-PVqTHZZJTahyoTaUBmJJcZC8v3TJtbLDduApvcw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAP97Hn=rXtHfkVD4NtPAm4ALqh2tz88Ad1=cktCy6MTebxPqZQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <nad-9733EA.14472211022014@news.gmane.org>

In article 
<CAP97Hn=rXtHfkVD4NtPAm4ALqh2tz88Ad1=cktCy6MTebxPqZQ at mail.gmail.com>,
 phil jones <interstar at gmail.com> wrote:
> On 11 February 2014 19:33, Sean Felipe Wolfe <ether.joe at gmail.com> wrote:
> > How about a page for development of idle? IIRC this has been discussed
> > before -- I'm all for it. Maybe idle.python.org?
> Yes.
> Well that's the end-game. If we can make a decent resource then maybe
> we can persuade someone to get it onto the python.org site.

IDLE is part of the Python standard library and, as such, is developed 
using the same process as other parts of the library, with a few 
variations (primarily as described in PEP 434).  The process is 
described in detail in the Python Developer's Guide.  I suggest reading 
that first and then, if necessary, consider proposing a new section to 
it for any differences needed in IDLE development.

http://docs.python.org/devguide/

http://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0434/

-- 
 Ned Deily,
 nad at acm.org


From tjreedy at udel.edu  Wed Feb 12 00:21:39 2014
From: tjreedy at udel.edu (Terry Reedy)
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2014 18:21:39 -0500
Subject: [Idle-dev] IDLE dev FAQ
In-Reply-To: <CAP97Hn=cytL2_vMVQ4juEi+d9JpyUV-6LKxBUjopcC8pKskv1g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAP97Hn=uw6LC5sq1jgMuTYXbYf-Vixvm1cQEhkj3JjQqfYYGCA@mail.gmail.com>
 <lddrhk$sdl$1@ger.gmane.org>
 <CAP97Hn=cytL2_vMVQ4juEi+d9JpyUV-6LKxBUjopcC8pKskv1g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <ldebab$ta3$1@ger.gmane.org>

On 2/11/2014 3:44 PM, phil jones wrote:

> On 11 February 2014 16:52, Terry Reedy <tjreedy at udel.edu> wrote:
>
>>> Q : Where can I check-out the current state of IDLE development?
>> What does 'current state of Idle development' mean to you.
>
> Well, I'd assume it's like this. Suppose there were two people (the
> infamous Alice and Bob) working with you on the software. Each of them
> is fixing bugs and submitting patches to you.
>
> But you'd ideally want them both to be as much in sync with each other
> as possible. So that Alice isn't doing things that are incompatible
> with the changes that Bob is making.

Incompatibility of patches for different issues is generally not a 
problem. The 122 Idle issues are spread across nearly 70 modules, for 
less than two issues per module. On an issues per code line basis, I 
suspect that Idle is comparable to the stdlib as a whole. I know of one 
module, tokenize, that has 8 open issues.

Incompatibility between patches on duplicate issues is a problem. So we 
close duplicates when we notice them.

(Particularly if there's
> refactoring going on, like you've been talking about with
> consolidating many small files into fewer larger ones.)

(But this is not now ;-)

> So on the one hand you would want Alice and Bob to be pulling each
> other's changes as frequently as possible.

They should both be pulling from the repository. That is what their 
patches will be tested against before acceptance.

> On the other, you might
> want to have some role as a gatekeeper in case Bob starts making
> changes that you think the community wouldn't agree with.

Having the sense to do that is part of evaluating candidates for commit 
privileges.

> Finally, the changes that Alice and Bob are making are not yet fully
> tested on all platforms and so not necessarily accepted into the main
> Python release yet.

Most patches do not interact with the OS. While multiplatform testing is 
nice, it is not then required. If tests were included with patches, then 
there would be post-commit tests on the buildbots, which cover many systems.

> So I'd assume there's a repo somewhere which is a kind of reference
> point for "current development release", it's something you gatekeep
> enough that Alice and Bob know that what's been accepted to it is part
> of the plan for what will go into the final release, and they can keep
> pulling from it to keep their development environments up-to-date.
>
> If you don't have something like this, then Bob has to wait until
> Alice's patch has gone all the way through acceptance into the release
> (which may take years) before he can see it and work against it.

If both upload their patches, they can each see them and discuss 
conflicts. But it is rare for two people to be actively working on the 
same module.

> So that's the question. Where is the equivalent of  *that* repository
> for IDLE? Is it just http://hg.python.org/cpython ?

bugs.python.org
>
> Or is that main cpython repo for patches that have undergone the full
> testing on all platforms, and are ready for release? If so, how can
> multiple contributors co-ordinate with each other?

If you were working on a patch for EditorWindow.py, you could search 
with 'EditorWindow' in the 'All text' box. This returns 18 issues, some 
of which are not about the EditorWindow.


>> Only if the PSF Code of Conduct applies to this list and personal attacks
>> are not tolerated.
>
> I assume you mean that if you aren't prepared to to follow the code of
> conduct you aren't welcome on this list?

Yes.

> On this note, I was looking at http://bugs.python.org/issue17390 and I
> saw you wrote this :
>
> Edmond: please fill in, sign, and send by your preferred method a PSF
> Contributor Agreement
> http://www.python.org/psf/contrib/contrib-form/ (back up a level for
> more explanation)
>
> For a patch more complicated than this, the CA would now be required
> before applying a patch of yours.
>
> What does this mean exactly?

Back when signing the CLA meant printing it, signing it with ink, and 
faxing or mailing it, we did not always insist on it. Now that we easy 
electroninc signing and cases like MS Sockpuppet versus Linux, et al 
have happened, we are much more serious about the matter.

In the particular case above, the patch was two lines and I might have 
applied it without the CLA. As it was, Edmond replied 6 minutes later 
that he had already signed it. And I did apply it 22 minutes later. If 
the patch had effected too many more lines, I would have waited for the 
* indicator to appear.

-- 
Terry Jan Reedy


From tjreedy at udel.edu  Wed Feb 12 00:28:47 2014
From: tjreedy at udel.edu (Terry Reedy)
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2014 18:28:47 -0500
Subject: [Idle-dev] The Future of Python
In-Reply-To: <CAG08RyJd8d4VsZ=JjM+rQ4CeRR6k51gMwFEU3-rPkKE93sH5SQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAP97HnnqoGBKqApfcWvbwyN6LzmGmCCs7rQHTJpECOMSGu7gwA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAP7+vJJTSjCkNWOfbsUY5C62N-hUv9SGEf9PrBvXpF8Jc336dg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAFDG03gDxcjaxFUvM-PmU6sBH4YPb3mo_-kG=k=-n3zaP+s6sw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAP7+vJJ4uuTXAkAMhu+SvSgT5RkPDFtWOQef3UMGHS7tigGT8A@mail.gmail.com>
 <875FC0C9-F9A6-49FD-9915-6DF08F54DF44@twistedmatrix.com>
 <ldbo4g$t8h$1@ger.gmane.org>
 <CAG08RyKSmeS0+aVZTBRHjMe4r2fFtT0jS1rnaQe=uqmF_JPwFg@mail.gmail.com>
 <lddf7b$rdq$1@ger.gmane.org>
 <CAG08RyJd8d4VsZ=JjM+rQ4CeRR6k51gMwFEU3-rPkKE93sH5SQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <ldebnl$2e0$1@ger.gmane.org>

On 2/11/2014 1:57 PM, Simon Forman wrote:

> I'm running Ubuntu 12.04 LTS.  I have a friend with a mac who is
> interested in learning Python.  I'll let you know if I can rope him
> in. ;-)
>
> I'm most interested in doing whatever would be most helpful (and
> within my abilities.)
>
> For issues with existing patches the task is review and testing?

Yes, and for issues without, verifying a bug report, or not, is useful. 
Just this morning, I posted about a test failure that was real on my 
machine, but the non-obvious result of an installation problem

> I just doubled checked that I can log in to the issue tracker with
> sforman, please go ahead and add me to issues of interest.

-- 
Terry Jan Reedy


From tjreedy at udel.edu  Wed Feb 12 00:33:43 2014
From: tjreedy at udel.edu (Terry Reedy)
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2014 18:33:43 -0500
Subject: [Idle-dev] The Future of Python
In-Reply-To: <CAFDG03jGj-+=a4GQqWAStv4pz-5-Uym4m_zx_RmU=ENhS6RGNg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAP97HnnqoGBKqApfcWvbwyN6LzmGmCCs7rQHTJpECOMSGu7gwA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAFDG03gDxcjaxFUvM-PmU6sBH4YPb3mo_-kG=k=-n3zaP+s6sw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAP7+vJJ4uuTXAkAMhu+SvSgT5RkPDFtWOQef3UMGHS7tigGT8A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAOFf2a2D=t39P+hPEwLN+zxiG_Uba5JT=Y7wauc5QM_8CDOLkA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAP97Hnm-+1xbu57y6wRtqcWSUjd-YKy5HLo2Xy4NhkCTfKALXA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAG08Ry+kxhBS30zqawxR6m=zNqZ=8th8Eu826_1MKhWJaRpc4w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAP7+vJKEptuaTJZzDKeCJVyaupR8v_Ee9x36Gd7ab45R00S_dA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAFDG03h7wnoq=FHNX-NxcJzUdWmO+EKm91enhDRDKbY3-7xFLA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAP97HnmeNxqtjLU6BVTJ4eF0_yTqrH2qi3NWqmtQEL1hSHg3eA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAFDG03j1HO3b1TcWks8XzWBBp0Rn=4jUZWFV_U9Ab1Lw5Zpntw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAP97HnkRntoRMtf1m+FMkjjPJ6FKyw3sL9Hk9FQRz0_Ok+TMqw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAFDG03irCufX_zaNO-LncoDuTiSHOhnXhFvM630=wm8s0JHD6Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <lddff1$uqf$1@ger.gmane.org>
 <CAFDG03jGj-+=a4GQqWAStv4pz-5-Uym4m_zx_RmU=ENhS6RGNg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <ldec0u$54u$1@ger.gmane.org>

On 2/11/2014 12:00 PM, Bruce Sherwood wrote:
> Good question, Terry. I just installed Python 2.7.6 (Nov. 10, 2013), and
> there are two issues with its IDLE. I don't know whether you're
> referring to this IDLE or to an experimental version (and I've mislaid
> the instructions for how to get the experimental version).

Idle on 2.7 and 3.x are mostly still in sync.
>
> The two issues in Python 2.7.6 in order of importance are these:
>
> (1) atexit isn't honored when I run from IDLE. I've copied Steve
> Spicklemire to ask him to comment on this issue, as it was he who last
> year had an exchange with the IDLE development community about this, and
> I think he said at the time that the bug was acknowledged, but I don't
> know where the bug is documented. Steve addressed this problem in VIDLE.

The followup email with a link to the discussion here will be very 
helpful as the issue never made it to the tracker and I would not have 
remembered the analyses posted there by Roger and me.

> (2) http://bugs.python.org/issue19042 -- this excellent proposal by you
> isn't in Python 2.7.6.

> The importance of issue (1) for us is that the big change in VPython
> last year, carried out by Steve and me, was to base VPython on wxPython.
> It was essential to use atexit to keep the VPython graphics window alive
> at the end of a user's program, but when running from IDLE somehow
> atexit doesn't function.

-- 
Terry Jan Reedy


From Bruce_Sherwood at ncsu.edu  Tue Feb 11 18:28:31 2014
From: Bruce_Sherwood at ncsu.edu (Bruce Sherwood)
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2014 10:28:31 -0700
Subject: [Idle-dev] The Future of Python
In-Reply-To: <lddap4$mt$1@ger.gmane.org>
References: <CAP97HnnqoGBKqApfcWvbwyN6LzmGmCCs7rQHTJpECOMSGu7gwA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAP7+vJJTSjCkNWOfbsUY5C62N-hUv9SGEf9PrBvXpF8Jc336dg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAFDG03gDxcjaxFUvM-PmU6sBH4YPb3mo_-kG=k=-n3zaP+s6sw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAP7+vJJ4uuTXAkAMhu+SvSgT5RkPDFtWOQef3UMGHS7tigGT8A@mail.gmail.com>
 <875FC0C9-F9A6-49FD-9915-6DF08F54DF44@twistedmatrix.com>
 <CAP7+vJ+=F-q1WUawJyoLq+HwrVP=WjV5TtMpeKvsVO5DxJd1Dw@mail.gmail.com>
 <07956762-ADF3-439A-9916-50C4253F54DC@twistedmatrix.com>
 <CAP7+vJ+xji6krrJ0kKzt+ZM4JgxJmo-0mgQ-8aNp+_fZ4QasMg@mail.gmail.com>
 <lddap4$mt$1@ger.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <CAFDG03gtmbDDppeQgieffjtP4StksukqcdnpRwFkpBQ6HTUADQ@mail.gmail.com>

At the moment I know very little about Brython, but I do note that in the
documentation at

http://www.brython.info/doc/en/index.html#

in the section "Syntax, keywords, and built-in functions" there is the
statement "Brython supports most keywords and functions of Python 3",
though I don't know whether this Python 3 orientation extends to the text
issue you reference. I know that there are Python -> JavaScript projects
that deviate from Python syntax, but I don't see this now in the Brython
documentation or examples. Searching around I found this statement from the
main Brython developer, making a comparison in a forum with another project
that in fact does not rigorously follow Python syntax: "All this doesn't
mean that Brython performance can't be improved, just that there is a price
to pay for compliance with the Python reference implementation."

Certainly there have to be mechanisms for interacting with the web page. At
www.brython.info if you right-click and view the page source, the code for
the analog clock looks like pretty ordinary Python to me, so maybe there
have been major changes in recent times.

Bruce


On Tue, Feb 11, 2014 at 7:06 AM, Terry Reedy <tjreedy at udel.edu> wrote:

> On 2/10/2014 11:34 PM, Guido van Rossum wrote:
>
>> You've convinced me that brython is interesting. I still think it would
>> require a miracle for it to become mainstream, but it has a better
>> change than pythonb.org <http://pythonb.org>. :-)
>>
>
> The Brython author posted to python-list for 'feedback' about a year or so
> ago, when Brython was in the 0.n (.8?) stage. *As I remember*, there were
> two problems, as least then, from a strict pythonista view.
>
> 1. It was (then, at least) intentionally not the same as Python. Moreover,
> the added syntax was distinctly not pythonic. As I remember, the non-Python
> syntax was not optional and ignorable, like Cython type hints, but pretty
> much required for interacting with the browser.
>
> 2. It was based on Py2 and its text model. To many of us, this seemed like
> a mistake for plugging in to unicode-based browsers and translation to a
> unicode-based javascript. Python 3's text=unicode model seems like a much
> better fit.
>
> The author did not seem interested in suggestions for changing these
> design decisions.
>
> --
> Terry Jan Reedy
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> IDLE-dev mailing list
> IDLE-dev at python.org
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/idle-dev
>
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From guido at python.org  Wed Feb 12 01:08:10 2014
From: guido at python.org (Guido van Rossum)
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2014 16:08:10 -0800
Subject: [Idle-dev] IDLE dev FAQ
In-Reply-To: <nad-9733EA.14472211022014@news.gmane.org>
References: <CAP97Hn=uw6LC5sq1jgMuTYXbYf-Vixvm1cQEhkj3JjQqfYYGCA@mail.gmail.com>
 <lddrhk$sdl$1@ger.gmane.org>
 <CAP97Hn=cytL2_vMVQ4juEi+d9JpyUV-6LKxBUjopcC8pKskv1g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAOFf2a0QwZ-PVqTHZZJTahyoTaUBmJJcZC8v3TJtbLDduApvcw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAP97Hn=rXtHfkVD4NtPAm4ALqh2tz88Ad1=cktCy6MTebxPqZQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <nad-9733EA.14472211022014@news.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <CAP7+vJ+hu8AUzwRWyuV1NuR0r=HzZQUgqHAqyXcGsPi=2Snafg@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Feb 11, 2014 at 2:47 PM, Ned Deily <nad at acm.org> wrote:

> IDLE is part of the Python standard library and, as such, is developed
> using the same process as other parts of the library, with a few
> variations (primarily as described in PEP 434).  The process is
> described in detail in the Python Developer's Guide. [...]
>

However, some of the complaints about the development process might benefit
from a different approach (presumably after a fork). Or maybe not, that's
the question.

-- 
--Guido van Rossum (python.org/~guido)
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From nad at acm.org  Wed Feb 12 01:28:13 2014
From: nad at acm.org (Ned Deily)
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2014 16:28:13 -0800
Subject: [Idle-dev] IDLE dev FAQ
References: <CAP97Hn=uw6LC5sq1jgMuTYXbYf-Vixvm1cQEhkj3JjQqfYYGCA@mail.gmail.com>
 <lddrhk$sdl$1@ger.gmane.org>
 <CAP97Hn=cytL2_vMVQ4juEi+d9JpyUV-6LKxBUjopcC8pKskv1g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAOFf2a0QwZ-PVqTHZZJTahyoTaUBmJJcZC8v3TJtbLDduApvcw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAP97Hn=rXtHfkVD4NtPAm4ALqh2tz88Ad1=cktCy6MTebxPqZQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <nad-9733EA.14472211022014@news.gmane.org>
 <CAP7+vJ+hu8AUzwRWyuV1NuR0r=HzZQUgqHAqyXcGsPi=2Snafg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <nad-4BA28B.16281311022014@news.gmane.org>

In article 
<CAP7+vJ+hu8AUzwRWyuV1NuR0r=HzZQUgqHAqyXcGsPi=2Snafg at mail.gmail.com>,
 Guido van Rossum <guido at python.org> wrote:
> On Tue, Feb 11, 2014 at 2:47 PM, Ned Deily <nad at acm.org> wrote:
> > IDLE is part of the Python standard library and, as such, is developed
> > using the same process as other parts of the library, with a few
> > variations (primarily as described in PEP 434).  The process is
> > described in detail in the Python Developer's Guide. [...] 
> However, some of the complaints about the development process might benefit
> from a different approach (presumably after a fork). Or maybe not, that's
> the question.

Whether or not it might, understanding and building on the current 
process and documentation seems like a good first step in any case.

-- 
 Ned Deily,
 nad at acm.org


From forman.simon at gmail.com  Wed Feb 12 03:50:45 2014
From: forman.simon at gmail.com (Simon Forman)
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2014 18:50:45 -0800
Subject: [Idle-dev] The Future of Python
In-Reply-To: <ldebnl$2e0$1@ger.gmane.org>
References: <CAP97HnnqoGBKqApfcWvbwyN6LzmGmCCs7rQHTJpECOMSGu7gwA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAP7+vJJTSjCkNWOfbsUY5C62N-hUv9SGEf9PrBvXpF8Jc336dg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAFDG03gDxcjaxFUvM-PmU6sBH4YPb3mo_-kG=k=-n3zaP+s6sw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAP7+vJJ4uuTXAkAMhu+SvSgT5RkPDFtWOQef3UMGHS7tigGT8A@mail.gmail.com>
 <875FC0C9-F9A6-49FD-9915-6DF08F54DF44@twistedmatrix.com>
 <ldbo4g$t8h$1@ger.gmane.org>
 <CAG08RyKSmeS0+aVZTBRHjMe4r2fFtT0jS1rnaQe=uqmF_JPwFg@mail.gmail.com>
 <lddf7b$rdq$1@ger.gmane.org>
 <CAG08RyJd8d4VsZ=JjM+rQ4CeRR6k51gMwFEU3-rPkKE93sH5SQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <ldebnl$2e0$1@ger.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <CAG08Ry+co1a8rCS=XKFFBiUsNQQ5HEsxnhw4Oiy4f-y4GApcbA@mail.gmail.com>

On 2/11/14, Terry Reedy <tjreedy at udel.edu> wrote:
> On 2/11/2014 1:57 PM, Simon Forman wrote:
>
>> I'm running Ubuntu 12.04 LTS.  I have a friend with a mac who is
>> interested in learning Python.  I'll let you know if I can rope him
>> in. ;-)
>>
>> I'm most interested in doing whatever would be most helpful (and
>> within my abilities.)
>>
>> For issues with existing patches the task is review and testing?
>
> Yes, and for issues without, verifying a bug report, or not, is useful.
> Just this morning, I posted about a test failure that was real on my
> machine, but the non-obvious result of an installation problem
>

:-)  Sounds like fun.

From sarah.kuchinsky at gmail.com  Wed Feb 12 04:29:02 2014
From: sarah.kuchinsky at gmail.com (Sarah Kuchinsky)
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2014 22:29:02 -0500
Subject: [Idle-dev] The Future of Python
Message-ID: <720B8649-A07F-4B3D-8FE7-F908C6B184F6@gmail.com>

That was Roger Serwy?s work. 

There are a bunch of those waiting to go up. Here?s one that?s been sitting around since 2008:
http://bugs.python.org/issue2704
I?d love to see it committed. 

Is anyone interested in having an IDLE sprint at PyCon?

On Feb 8, 2014, at 2:10 AM, Sean Felipe Wolfe <ether.joe at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Fri, Feb 7, 2014 at 10:57 PM, Sean Felipe Wolfe <ether.joe at gmail.com> wrote:
>> IIRC there are a lot of good bits in the fork.
> 
> Er, I meant to say, 'the fork of IDLE called IDLEX' . Did we get any
> of those in? That would be
> 
> http://idlex.sourceforge.net/
> _______________________________________________
> IDLE-dev mailing list
> IDLE-dev at python.org
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/idle-dev
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From raajjya at gmail.com  Sun Feb 16 17:31:29 2014
From: raajjya at gmail.com (Jayakrishnan Rajagopalasarma)
Date: Sun, 16 Feb 2014 22:01:29 +0530
Subject: [Idle-dev] IDLE Style Checking idea for GSoC-2014
Message-ID: <CAEniZVjtt-dAJMzXRNFOQTivZ0O7o9TwmVBr6+FSYdqxm-2Syw@mail.gmail.com>

hi,
I did GSoC with IDLE improvements project last year successfully.
There we got an interesting idea extending the PEP8 style checking feature
for IDLE.
This[1] is the issue I created on bug tracker to create an IDLE extension
that would integrate PEP8.
BUT
 Thanks Terry J. Reedy for started improving the idea with a nice proposal
in msg195711 [2].

Sorry for the late reply, I am facing my terrible final year examinations
in University,
Hopefully I can not do this project as a student this time, but I wish to
support with our mentors in anyway..
I think the Organizations' ideas for GSoC are still in progress, and saw a
message from Terri Oda asking ideas from core python, I'll be active back
once I finished my examinations, expecting your suggestions and help...

[1]. http://bugs.python.org/issue18704
[2]. http://bugs.python.org/issue18704#msg195711
.




*keep active, be ready*
Thanks && Regards..
R. Jayakrishnan

 <https://www.facebook.com/raajjya>  <http://123works.blogspot.com/>
<https://plus.google.com/u/0/114501383949013359988/posts>
  <http://www.linkedin.com/profile/view?id=92231015&trk=tab_pro>
<https://twitter.com/#!/raajjya>
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From tjreedy at udel.edu  Sun Feb 16 21:23:10 2014
From: tjreedy at udel.edu (Terry Reedy)
Date: Sun, 16 Feb 2014 15:23:10 -0500
Subject: [Idle-dev] IDLE Style Checking idea for GSoC-2014
In-Reply-To: <CAEniZVjtt-dAJMzXRNFOQTivZ0O7o9TwmVBr6+FSYdqxm-2Syw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAEniZVjtt-dAJMzXRNFOQTivZ0O7o9TwmVBr6+FSYdqxm-2Syw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <ldr6nu$g12$1@ger.gmane.org>

On 2/16/2014 11:31 AM, Jayakrishnan Rajagopalasarma wrote:

> I did GSoC with IDLE improvements project last year successfully.
> There we got an interesting idea extending the PEP8 style checking
> feature for IDLE.
> This[1] is the issue I created on bug trackerto create an IDLE extension
> that would integrate PEP8.
> BUT
>   Thanks Terry J. Reedy for started improving the idea with a nice
> proposal in msg195711 [2].

I agree and have already thought of that as a possible GSOC project. 
First develop the generic framework, then some specific adaptors as 
needed and as time allows.

> [1]. http://bugs.python.org/issue18704
> [2]. http://bugs.python.org/issue18704#msg195711

-- 
Terry Jan Reedy



From Bruce_Sherwood at ncsu.edu  Mon Feb 17 15:54:16 2014
From: Bruce_Sherwood at ncsu.edu (Bruce Sherwood)
Date: Mon, 17 Feb 2014 07:54:16 -0700
Subject: [Idle-dev] The Future of Python
In-Reply-To: <CAP7+vJ+xji6krrJ0kKzt+ZM4JgxJmo-0mgQ-8aNp+_fZ4QasMg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAP97HnnqoGBKqApfcWvbwyN6LzmGmCCs7rQHTJpECOMSGu7gwA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAP7+vJJTSjCkNWOfbsUY5C62N-hUv9SGEf9PrBvXpF8Jc336dg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAFDG03gDxcjaxFUvM-PmU6sBH4YPb3mo_-kG=k=-n3zaP+s6sw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAP7+vJJ4uuTXAkAMhu+SvSgT5RkPDFtWOQef3UMGHS7tigGT8A@mail.gmail.com>
 <875FC0C9-F9A6-49FD-9915-6DF08F54DF44@twistedmatrix.com>
 <CAP7+vJ+=F-q1WUawJyoLq+HwrVP=WjV5TtMpeKvsVO5DxJd1Dw@mail.gmail.com>
 <07956762-ADF3-439A-9916-50C4253F54DC@twistedmatrix.com>
 <CAP7+vJ+xji6krrJ0kKzt+ZM4JgxJmo-0mgQ-8aNp+_fZ4QasMg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAFDG03jJWEEzm7=RQWL_4roBr3_1i0OH8rPJP0aNFN+Rg-6DxQ@mail.gmail.com>

Here's a welcome surprise. Thanks to quick work by Brythonist Billy Earney,
with tweaks by me, the zip file below contains a demonstration of a Python
program driving WebGL in a browser, using the Brython and GlowScript
libraries. Unpack the zip file, execute server.py, open a browser, and go
to "localhost:8000/bounce.html". If you have a WebGL-enabled browser and a
GPU-based graphics card, you'll see a standard VPython/GlowScript demo, a
ball bouncing around in a box, with instructions on how to rotate and zoom
the camera.

Then inspect the contents of bounce.html, where you'll see standard Python
syntax.

There's plenty more to do, but this looks very promising.

Bruce

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/18859068/brython_glowscript.zip


On Mon, Feb 10, 2014 at 9:34 PM, Guido van Rossum <guido at python.org> wrote:

> You've convinced me that brython is interesting. I still think it would
> require a miracle for it to become mainstream, but it has a better change
> than pythonb.org. :-)
>
>
> On Mon, Feb 10, 2014 at 3:35 PM, Glyph <glyph at twistedmatrix.com> wrote:
>
>>
>> On Feb 10, 2014, at 5:19 PM, Guido van Rossum <guido at python.org> wrote:
>>
>> Then we're doomed, because this is entirely political (the companies
>> making browsers must want to do it).
>>
>>
>> Not at all.  There are a number of promising proofs of concept,
>> demonstrating different aspects of this problem: Pyjamas, the PyJS fork of
>> Pyjamas, Skulpt, Empythoned (which actually compiles *CPython* to run in
>> the browser with surprisingly reasonable performance!), Brython, and PyPy's
>> now defunct JS backend to name a few.  With source maps, it's even possible
>> to use native JavaScript debugging and profiling tools on Browser-hosted
>> Python.
>>
>> The political problem is entirely based around getting the various
>> interested parties together and trying to hammer out some kind of common
>> core that they can all get running and contribute to, rather than
>> duplicating tons and tons of effort and only ever getting to a 60% solution.
>>
>> Browser vendors seem perfectly happy to treat JavaScript as a compilation
>> target; efforts like ASM.JS are in fact trying to formalize this process
>> and provide support for it.  Most of these Py-to-JS converters work fine on
>> mobile devices, too.
>>
>> Guido, if you haven't checked it out, <http://www.brython.info> is a
>> *very* interesting demo: it literally makes <script type="text/python3">
>> work in a web page, with nothing beyond a single JavaScript file include
>> (no local compilation, no offline processing).  The only problem is that
>> the language really isn't quite Python - see, for example, <
>> https://bitbucket.org/olemis/brython/issue/147/generators-send-method-missed>.
>>  But they've made a surprising amount of progress since I last checked, and
>> they seem to be closing issues all the time :-).
>>
>> -glyph
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> --Guido van Rossum (python.org/~guido)
>
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From Bruce_Sherwood at ncsu.edu  Mon Feb 17 16:32:59 2014
From: Bruce_Sherwood at ncsu.edu (Bruce Sherwood)
Date: Mon, 17 Feb 2014 08:32:59 -0700
Subject: [Idle-dev] The Future of Python
In-Reply-To: <CAFDG03ig80XYDbrXp6MZY=Z-fMxhNZvhWcE76CYKL32ZC8vQwA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAP97HnnqoGBKqApfcWvbwyN6LzmGmCCs7rQHTJpECOMSGu7gwA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAP7+vJJTSjCkNWOfbsUY5C62N-hUv9SGEf9PrBvXpF8Jc336dg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAFDG03gDxcjaxFUvM-PmU6sBH4YPb3mo_-kG=k=-n3zaP+s6sw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAP7+vJJ4uuTXAkAMhu+SvSgT5RkPDFtWOQef3UMGHS7tigGT8A@mail.gmail.com>
 <875FC0C9-F9A6-49FD-9915-6DF08F54DF44@twistedmatrix.com>
 <CAP7+vJ+=F-q1WUawJyoLq+HwrVP=WjV5TtMpeKvsVO5DxJd1Dw@mail.gmail.com>
 <07956762-ADF3-439A-9916-50C4253F54DC@twistedmatrix.com>
 <CAP7+vJ+xji6krrJ0kKzt+ZM4JgxJmo-0mgQ-8aNp+_fZ4QasMg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAFDG03ig80XYDbrXp6MZY=Z-fMxhNZvhWcE76CYKL32ZC8vQwA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAFDG03g9saXfuRObbFf_kQvrNHrEvu=Bt-U=7OC0T-E0EzTVAg@mail.gmail.com>

Thanks to a report, I find that the Brython/GlowScript machinery doesn't
work in Firefox or IE; it does work in Chrome. Dunno why. It's early days.

Bruce
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From interstar at gmail.com  Mon Feb 17 16:38:00 2014
From: interstar at gmail.com (phil jones)
Date: Mon, 17 Feb 2014 12:38:00 -0300
Subject: [Idle-dev] The Future of Python
In-Reply-To: <CAFDG03g9saXfuRObbFf_kQvrNHrEvu=Bt-U=7OC0T-E0EzTVAg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAP97HnnqoGBKqApfcWvbwyN6LzmGmCCs7rQHTJpECOMSGu7gwA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAP7+vJJTSjCkNWOfbsUY5C62N-hUv9SGEf9PrBvXpF8Jc336dg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAFDG03gDxcjaxFUvM-PmU6sBH4YPb3mo_-kG=k=-n3zaP+s6sw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAP7+vJJ4uuTXAkAMhu+SvSgT5RkPDFtWOQef3UMGHS7tigGT8A@mail.gmail.com>
 <875FC0C9-F9A6-49FD-9915-6DF08F54DF44@twistedmatrix.com>
 <CAP7+vJ+=F-q1WUawJyoLq+HwrVP=WjV5TtMpeKvsVO5DxJd1Dw@mail.gmail.com>
 <07956762-ADF3-439A-9916-50C4253F54DC@twistedmatrix.com>
 <CAP7+vJ+xji6krrJ0kKzt+ZM4JgxJmo-0mgQ-8aNp+_fZ4QasMg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAFDG03ig80XYDbrXp6MZY=Z-fMxhNZvhWcE76CYKL32ZC8vQwA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAFDG03g9saXfuRObbFf_kQvrNHrEvu=Bt-U=7OC0T-E0EzTVAg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAP97Hn=5eir7-7iwB8tCbeHmeoeo3Yk4n2dXcoWVMyCXd-UrtA@mail.gmail.com>

Ah ... OK.  Will try Chromium.


On 17 February 2014 12:32, Bruce Sherwood <Bruce_Sherwood at ncsu.edu> wrote:
> Thanks to a report, I find that the Brython/GlowScript machinery doesn't
> work in Firefox or IE; it does work in Chrome. Dunno why. It's early days.
>
> Bruce
>
> _______________________________________________
> IDLE-dev mailing list
> IDLE-dev at python.org
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/idle-dev
>

From Bruce_Sherwood at ncsu.edu  Mon Feb 17 20:00:48 2014
From: Bruce_Sherwood at ncsu.edu (Bruce Sherwood)
Date: Mon, 17 Feb 2014 12:00:48 -0700
Subject: [Idle-dev] The Future of Python
In-Reply-To: <0096CAEC-E14F-4966-B28D-2D5843EEC903@rovitotv.org>
References: <CAP97HnnqoGBKqApfcWvbwyN6LzmGmCCs7rQHTJpECOMSGu7gwA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAP7+vJJTSjCkNWOfbsUY5C62N-hUv9SGEf9PrBvXpF8Jc336dg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAFDG03gDxcjaxFUvM-PmU6sBH4YPb3mo_-kG=k=-n3zaP+s6sw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAP7+vJJ4uuTXAkAMhu+SvSgT5RkPDFtWOQef3UMGHS7tigGT8A@mail.gmail.com>
 <875FC0C9-F9A6-49FD-9915-6DF08F54DF44@twistedmatrix.com>
 <CAP7+vJ+=F-q1WUawJyoLq+HwrVP=WjV5TtMpeKvsVO5DxJd1Dw@mail.gmail.com>
 <07956762-ADF3-439A-9916-50C4253F54DC@twistedmatrix.com>
 <CAP7+vJ+xji6krrJ0kKzt+ZM4JgxJmo-0mgQ-8aNp+_fZ4QasMg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAFDG03ig80XYDbrXp6MZY=Z-fMxhNZvhWcE76CYKL32ZC8vQwA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAFDG03g9saXfuRObbFf_kQvrNHrEvu=Bt-U=7OC0T-E0EzTVAg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAP97Hn=5eir7-7iwB8tCbeHmeoeo3Yk4n2dXcoWVMyCXd-UrtA@mail.gmail.com>
 <0096CAEC-E14F-4966-B28D-2D5843EEC903@rovitotv.org>
Message-ID: <CAFDG03hJsd46Vj7_iK7Afy3K-wW97zyGBaHa7aVjQgMuUz_pqw@mail.gmail.com>

Thanks for pointing out iPython, which indeed has many good features.
GlowScript and VPython have a different goal, which is to make it quite
easy for nonexpert programmers, including novices, to write programs that
generate real-time navigable 3D animations as a side effect of
computations. One very large population (several tens of thousands per
semester) is students in an intro physics course who, despite no prior
programming experience, use the VPython module to be able to write short
Python programs that model physical systems and show 3D animations of these
systems. VPython is also used in several advanced computational physics
textbooks. GlowScript could also be an appropriate environment for these
students if the programming language could be Python rather than JavaScript
or CoffeeScript, which aren't very good languages for novice use.

Bruce


On Mon, Feb 17, 2014 at 10:57 AM, Todd V. Rovito <rovitotv at rovitotv.org>wrote:

> Phil and Bruce,
>   One of the best ways to run Python from the web is with iPython's
> notebook feature:
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IPython
>
> This might not be exactly what you want but it works great for scientist
> and engineers.  Sharing code between S&E's is trivial with iPython.  I find
> iPython good for developing small chunks of code and sharing with people.
>  Anything serious I still use IDLE.
>
>
> Sent from my iPad
>
> > On Feb 17, 2014, at 10:38 AM, phil jones <interstar at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > Ah ... OK.  Will try Chromium.
> >
> >
> >> On 17 February 2014 12:32, Bruce Sherwood <Bruce_Sherwood at ncsu.edu>
> wrote:
> >> Thanks to a report, I find that the Brython/GlowScript machinery doesn't
> >> work in Firefox or IE; it does work in Chrome. Dunno why. It's early
> days.
> >>
> >> Bruce
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> IDLE-dev mailing list
> >> IDLE-dev at python.org
> >> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/idle-dev
> > _______________________________________________
> > IDLE-dev mailing list
> > IDLE-dev at python.org
> > https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/idle-dev
>
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From taleinat at gmail.com  Sun Feb 23 20:06:30 2014
From: taleinat at gmail.com (Tal Einat)
Date: Sun, 23 Feb 2014 21:06:30 +0200
Subject: [Idle-dev] Nobody expects a Squeezer inquisition!
Message-ID: <CALWZvp6D+1PdRcAAxwy0=RPzrRb7KGN+4tWi8pP4Q=wMvqoDOA@mail.gmail.com>

Hi,

Shameless plug: I've written a Monty Python style explanation of the
utility of the Squeezer IDLE extension. This is because I'm pushing to have
it bundled with IDLE. See issue6143_ for the good stuff!

- Tal Einat

.. _issue6143: http://bugs.python.org/issue6143#msg212020
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From taleinat at gmail.com  Tue Feb 25 18:47:55 2014
From: taleinat at gmail.com (Tal Einat)
Date: Tue, 25 Feb 2014 19:47:55 +0200
Subject: [Idle-dev] Fwd: [Python-Dev] GSOC 2014 - IDLE Project
In-Reply-To: <CAO3PiBj62bv2jjB0tQXqTe0JBMQcoAiwr6FfgPOnZe_zRaMPBw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO3PiBj62bv2jjB0tQXqTe0JBMQcoAiwr6FfgPOnZe_zRaMPBw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CALWZvp4KT4NiLBGW6J5Xbx1tFxQj6_-FcHOKm69tm17xYhJFcw@mail.gmail.com>

Forwarding here for those who read IDLE-dev but not Python-dev.

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Saimadhav Heblikar <saimadhavheblikar at gmail.com>
Date: Tue, Feb 25, 2014 at 6:59 PM
Subject: [Python-Dev] GSOC 2014 - IDLE Project
To: python-dev at python.org


Hi,

Saimadhav Heblikar here.I would like to express my interest in working on
IDLE improvement project as a part of Google Summer of Code 2014 for Python
Core projects under the Python Software Foundation.I am currently a
freshman Computer Science undergraduate student at  PESIT , Bangalore.

Similar to most Python programmers, i started my python journey on IDLE,and
once i came to know that IDLE was one of the prospective projects,i knew
this was great opportunity to give back to IDLE and the community as whole.

I have created an account on the bug tracker and submitted the PSF
contributor agreement.My username on the tracker is sahutd(saimadhav
heblikar) http://bugs.python.org/user18939. I use the same nickname on the
IRC channel.

To enhance my understanding of the codebase, i have submitted few patches,

some which have been committed

http://bugs.python.org/issue20634

http://bugs.python.org/issue20677



and some which are under review

http://bugs.python.org/issue20403 (IDLE related)

http://bugs.python.org/issue20640 (Adds IDLE unittest)

http://bugs.python.org/issue20451

http://bugs.python.org/issue20466


--------------

Coming to the point,as the theme of the project which i am interested in
and the theme for the IDLE GSOC `13 projects by Jayakrishnan and Phil
Webster are the same,  i have a few questions to ask the python
mentors/devs.

1.What will be the scope of the idle gsoc 2014?By scope,i want to
 know,whether i will be expected to continue the work done in 2013, or
start afresh.

2. If i were to start afresh,i have explored the following two
possibilities,

      a)Code recommender feature for IDLE - Similar to the feature in
Eclipse but made for Python(would work from the shell or in IDLE).As an
example of how it would work,we could think of it as a web api, which would
return information about most used functions in a module.It would help
beginners and experts alike to make better use of their dev time.It would
also go a long way in making python even more social.If any questions on
this proposal,i am looking forward to answer it. (I would like to know the
community's opinion on this,GSOC or otherwise)If this generates a positive
response, i will immediately come up with a plan to develop it.

      b)Working on a project to integrate a passive checker like pyflakes
with the ability to highlight and possibly correct errors on-the-fly and on
demand.Automatically integrate the above feature to work on
folders/directories, selection of files ,projects etc.


2.If i were to continue the work done in gsoc 2013,would it involve

   a)building on features for PEP8(or other style checker,though after
reading http://bugs.python.org/issue18704  i am inclined to believe it is
not a must have atm. )

  b)extending the unittest framework. Would i be completing(or to an
extent) , the missing tests in idlelib/idle_test?What would be the
priorities?

  c)features which don't seem to have been completed from gsoc 2013 like
line numbering,improving cursor behavior and making right click more
intuitive.(Anything gsoc 13 related which i have missed out?)

--------------

I believe from the abstracts of  GSOC 13 projects which were selected,that
, i am expected to increase test coverage for idle AND  add a new feature .
Is my understanding correct?

I would like to know whom i can contact(mentors) if have questions about
the proposal writing and/or other technical questions relating to GSOC 14.

I would also like to come up with overall outline based on your feedback so
that it can critiqued before i submit the application on the google page.

Awaiting your replies.

Saimadhav Heblikar(sahutd)

Bug Tracker username: sahutd (http://bugs.python.org/user18939)

Email : saimadhavheblikar at gmail.com

Github : https://github.com/sahutd


_______________________________________________
Python-Dev mailing list
Python-Dev at python.org
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev
Unsubscribe:
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From vatroslavsuton at aim.com  Fri Feb 28 17:30:38 2014
From: vatroslavsuton at aim.com (Vatroslav Suton)
Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2014 11:30:38 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [Idle-dev] The Future of Python
In-Reply-To: <CAFDG03hJsd46Vj7_iK7Afy3K-wW97zyGBaHa7aVjQgMuUz_pqw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAP97HnnqoGBKqApfcWvbwyN6LzmGmCCs7rQHTJpECOMSGu7gwA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAP7+vJJTSjCkNWOfbsUY5C62N-hUv9SGEf9PrBvXpF8Jc336dg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAFDG03gDxcjaxFUvM-PmU6sBH4YPb3mo_-kG=k=-n3zaP+s6sw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAP7+vJJ4uuTXAkAMhu+SvSgT5RkPDFtWOQef3UMGHS7tigGT8A@mail.gmail.com>
 <875FC0C9-F9A6-49FD-9915-6DF08F54DF44@twistedmatrix.com>
 <CAP7+vJ+=F-q1WUawJyoLq+HwrVP=WjV5TtMpeKvsVO5DxJd1Dw@mail.gmail.com>
 <07956762-ADF3-439A-9916-50C4253F54DC@twistedmatrix.com>
 <CAP7+vJ+xji6krrJ0kKzt+ZM4JgxJmo-0mgQ-8aNp+_fZ4QasMg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAFDG03ig80XYDbrXp6MZY=Z-fMxhNZvhWcE76CYKL32ZC8vQwA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAFDG03g9saXfuRObbFf_kQvrNHrEvu=Bt-U=7OC0T-E0EzTVAg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAP97Hn=5eir7-7iwB8tCbeHmeoeo3Yk4n2dXcoWVMyCXd-UrtA@mail.gmail.com>
 <0096CAEC-E14F-4966-B28D-2D5843EEC903@rovitotv.org>
 <CAFDG03hJsd46Vj7_iK7Afy3K-wW97zyGBaHa7aVjQgMuUz_pqw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <8D102B98C0A7CF9-56D8-A063@webmail-m250.sysops.aol.com>


I have some source that includes pyopengl
Just give me some time to settle down, I'd be glad to share


Vatroslav Suton
vatroslavsuton at aim.com



-----Original Message-----
From: Bruce Sherwood <Bruce_Sherwood at ncsu.edu>
To: Todd V. Rovito <rovitotv at rovitotv.org>
Cc: idle-dev <idle-dev at python.org>
Sent: Mon, Feb 17, 2014 8:01 pm
Subject: Re: [Idle-dev] The Future of Python


Thanks for pointing out iPython, which indeed has many good features. GlowScript and VPython have a different goal, which is to make it quite easy for nonexpert programmers, including novices, to write programs that generate real-time navigable 3D animations as a side effect of computations. One very large population (several tens of thousands per semester) is students in an intro physics course who, despite no prior programming experience, use the VPython module to be able to write short Python programs that model physical systems and show 3D animations of these systems. VPython is also used in several advanced computational physics textbooks. GlowScript could also be an appropriate environment for these students if the programming language could be Python rather than JavaScript or CoffeeScript, which aren't very good languages for novice use.


Bruce




On Mon, Feb 17, 2014 at 10:57 AM, Todd V. Rovito <rovitotv at rovitotv.org> wrote:

Phil and Bruce,
  One of the best ways to run Python from the web is with iPython's notebook feature:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IPython

This might not be exactly what you want but it works great for scientist and engineers.  Sharing code between S&E's is trivial with iPython.  I find iPython good for developing small chunks of code and sharing with people.  Anything serious I still use IDLE.


Sent from my iPad


> On Feb 17, 2014, at 10:38 AM, phil jones <interstar at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Ah ... OK.  Will try Chromium.
>
>
>> On 17 February 2014 12:32, Bruce Sherwood <Bruce_Sherwood at ncsu.edu> wrote:
>> Thanks to a report, I find that the Brython/GlowScript machinery doesn't
>> work in Firefox or IE; it does work in Chrome. Dunno why. It's early days.
>>
>> Bruce
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> IDLE-dev mailing list
>> IDLE-dev at python.org
>> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/idle-dev
> _______________________________________________
> IDLE-dev mailing list
> IDLE-dev at python.org
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/idle-dev





_______________________________________________
IDLE-dev mailing list
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https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/idle-dev

 
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