From ggpolo at gmail.com  Tue Aug  5 04:31:41 2008
From: ggpolo at gmail.com (Guilherme Polo)
Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2008 23:31:41 -0300
Subject: [Idle-dev] tabs, ttk theme and co
Message-ID: <ac2200130808041931g40362267wca549c85e20cb53c@mail.gmail.com>

Hi there,

I've been working on a public-but-unknown idlelib branch to add
support for tabs, ttk themes (new in tk8.5 or when using tile) and
today I consider a good day to ask you to give it a try.

* The branch I'm working can be visited here:
http://svn.python.org/view/sandbox/trunk/ttk-gsoc/src/idlelib
* For checkout the address is a bit different:
http://svn.python.org/projects/sandbox/trunk/ttk-gsoc/src/idlelib
* If you only want a big patch to patch your own branch the direct
link for download is:
http://svn.python.org/view/*checkout*/sandbox/trunk/ttk-gsoc/src/tabs_ttk_and_co.diff?rev=65542

If you are going to download the patch, let me tell you that I have
tried patching the idlelib in python-trunk (2.6b2) with this patch and
it works, except with a minor and nearly irrelevant reject in
idlever.py

Some considerations:

- To use Ttk features, I have done a wrapper and you can download the
latest version accessing http://pypi.python.org/pypi/pyttk
- PyShell continues in a single for window, I considered it to be
special enough to not allow other tabs being created on its window;
- The patch is not small, and I'm not totally sure that things will
just work since I've been the only tester, so I suggest to not try
doing so much reviewing right now.

Thanks,

-- 
-- Guilherme H. Polo Goncalves

From ggpolo at gmail.com  Thu Aug  7 16:20:16 2008
From: ggpolo at gmail.com (Guilherme Polo)
Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2008 11:20:16 -0300
Subject: [Idle-dev] tabs, ttk theme and co
In-Reply-To: <ac2200130808041931g40362267wca549c85e20cb53c@mail.gmail.com>
References: <ac2200130808041931g40362267wca549c85e20cb53c@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <ac2200130808070720r25fe0514g400185d03d87b69a@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Aug 4, 2008 at 11:31 PM, Guilherme Polo <ggpolo at gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi there,
>
> I've been working on a public-but-unknown idlelib branch to add
> support for tabs, ttk themes (new in tk8.5 or when using tile) and
> today I consider a good day to ask you to give it a try.
>
> * The branch I'm working can be visited here:
> http://svn.python.org/view/sandbox/trunk/ttk-gsoc/src/idlelib
> * For checkout the address is a bit different:
> http://svn.python.org/projects/sandbox/trunk/ttk-gsoc/src/idlelib
> * If you only want a big patch to patch your own branch the direct
> link for download is:
> http://svn.python.org/view/*checkout*/sandbox/trunk/ttk-gsoc/src/tabs_ttk_and_co.diff?rev=65542
>

I've fixed some things today, specially one regarding "Search in Files
Dialog" which was broken before and also removed the .diff file from
the repository. This patch is now available for download only at
http://code.google.com/p/python-ttk/downloads/list

So.. any chances someone tried it yet ?

> If you are going to download the patch, let me tell you that I have
> tried patching the idlelib in python-trunk (2.6b2) with this patch and
> it works, except with a minor and nearly irrelevant reject in
> idlever.py
>
> Some considerations:
>
> - To use Ttk features, I have done a wrapper and you can download the
> latest version accessing http://pypi.python.org/pypi/pyttk
> - PyShell continues in a single for window, I considered it to be
> special enough to not allow other tabs being created on its window;
> - The patch is not small, and I'm not totally sure that things will
> just work since I've been the only tester, so I suggest to not try
> doing so much reviewing right now.
>
> Thanks,


-- 
-- Guilherme H. Polo Goncalves

From bradfenton1 at optusnet.com.au  Sat Aug 16 13:50:02 2008
From: bradfenton1 at optusnet.com.au (Mark Fenton)
Date: Sat, 16 Aug 2008 21:50:02 +1000
Subject: [Idle-dev] Unsolved problem.
Message-ID: <06284DD45D634315A1274D0908B2E5E9@Mark>

Hi,

Does anyone know how to do the following:


# HiLo.py

import random
z = random.randint(1, 100)
loopy = 0
countdown = 15
while loopy < 15:
    loopy = loopy + 1
    countdown=countdown-1
    print
    guess = int(raw_input('Enter an integer: '))
    print
    print "[Countdown %i]" % (countdown)
    print "-" * 89
    print
    if guess < z:
        print "[Go higher]".rjust(94)
    if guess > z:
        print "[Go lower]".rjust(94)
    if guess == z:
        print
        print "At last!"
        print "If you want to play again press 'r' then enter, otherwise 'x' then enter to exit"
        run = raw_input("\n'r' to run again or 'e' to exit ")
        if run == "e":
            print "Bye till next time..."
            break
        elif run == "r":
            continue
    if countdown == 0:
        print "Looks like you've run out of turns..."
        print "If you want to play again press 'r' then enter, otherwise 'x' then enter to exit"
        run = raw_input("\n'r' to run again or 'e' to exit ")
        if run == "e":
            print "Bye till next time..."
            break
        elif run == "r":
            z = random.randint(1, 100)
            loopy = 0
            countdown = 15
            continue

Save the above as HiLo.py in site packages then put a shortcut onto desktop and when it's double - clicked it comes up NOT in a black dos window but as it would if one were to run it from the IDLE i.e., white background with blue characters.

Does anyone know how to do this?

Thanks in advance,

Mark


        
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://mail.python.org/pipermail/idle-dev/attachments/20080816/20e2b1fd/attachment.htm>

From taleinat at gmail.com  Fri Aug 22 11:56:59 2008
From: taleinat at gmail.com (Tal Einat)
Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2008 12:56:59 +0300
Subject: [Idle-dev] Unsolved problem.
In-Reply-To: <06284DD45D634315A1274D0908B2E5E9@Mark>
References: <06284DD45D634315A1274D0908B2E5E9@Mark>
Message-ID: <7afdee2f0808220256g935fa14o2bae763894044981@mail.gmail.com>

Mark Fenton wrote:
> Hi,
>
> Does anyone know how to do the following:
>
> [snip]
>
> Save the above as HiLo.py in site packages then put a shortcut onto desktop
> and when it's double - clicked it comes up NOT in a black dos window but as
> it would if one were to run it from the IDLE i.e., white background with
> blue characters.
>

Hi Mark,

This works for me, after having saved the code as C:\hilo.py :

I create a shortcut to hilo.py on the desktop, then enter the
shortcut's properties and enter this in the 'target' field:
C:\Python25\python.exe C:\Python25\Lib\idlelib\idle.py -r C:\hilo.py
(copy/paste and run this in the command line first to make sure that
it works right)


You could alternatively change the 'start in' field to
"C:\Python25\Lib\idlelib" (without the quotes), and the just have
"idle.bat -r C:\hilo.py" in the 'target' field.


Note that when doing this, the IDLE shell will not close once the code
is finished; it will become interactive and require the user the close
it manually.

Enjoy,
- Tal

From taleinat at gmail.com  Fri Aug 22 15:16:01 2008
From: taleinat at gmail.com (Tal Einat)
Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2008 16:16:01 +0300
Subject: [Idle-dev] Fwd:  Unsolved problem.
In-Reply-To: <50AF99C89E4746B5A13ADEB7D69FC9F1@Mark>
References: <06284DD45D634315A1274D0908B2E5E9@Mark>
	<7afdee2f0808220256g935fa14o2bae763894044981@mail.gmail.com>
	<50AF99C89E4746B5A13ADEB7D69FC9F1@Mark>
Message-ID: <7afdee2f0808220616h62a38ca9l7e8bc82df4d5d254@mail.gmail.com>

Mark Fenton wrote:
>Tal Einat wrote:
>>
>> This works for me, after having saved the code as C:\hilo.py :
>>
>> I create a shortcut to hilo.py on the desktop, then enter the
>> shortcut's properties and enter this in the 'target' field:
>> C:\Python25\python.exe C:\Python25\Lib\idlelib\idle.py -r C:\hilo.py
>> (copy/paste and run this in the command line first to make sure that
>> it works right)
>>
>>
>> You could alternatively change the 'start in' field to
>> "C:\Python25\Lib\idlelib" (without the quotes), and the just have
>> "idle.bat -r C:\hilo.py" in the 'target' field.
>>
>>
>> Note that when doing this, the IDLE shell will not close once the code
>> is finished; it will become interactive and require the user the close
>> it manually.
>>
>> Enjoy,
>> - Tal

> Many thanks Tal I'd just about given up hope of ever finding a solution
> to this time consuming problem. Tried your previous suggestions of
> idle.bat etc but only succeeded in producing a blank IDLE
> "New >Window" without the game itself running.
>
> [snip]
>
> Once again many thanks...
> Mark

Hi Mark,

Did you try my first suggestion? If so, did you make sure to get it
working from the command line first? Even if Vista (or some other
version of Windows) has weird shortcut issues, it should definitely
work from the command line.

(To open the command line, Start -> Run -> type "cmd" and hit Return)

Which version of Windows are you using?


Please send your replies to the IDLE-dev list as well if they are
relevant to the issue you are having, so that others in the future may
also benefit from our conversation. When doing so, please add your
reply below the relevant bit of the previous conversation, as I have.

Hoping we can get this working for you soon,
- Tal

From bradfenton1 at optusnet.com.au  Sat Aug 23 01:33:49 2008
From: bradfenton1 at optusnet.com.au (Mark Fenton)
Date: Sat, 23 Aug 2008 09:33:49 +1000
Subject: [Idle-dev] One down two to go.
Message-ID: <C52309815C434A98AAC8F52B18A47D26@Mark>

+AD4- Hi Mark,

+AD4- Did you try my first suggestion? If so, did you make sure to get it
+AD4- working from the command line first? Even if Vista (or some other
+AD4- version of Windows) has weird shortcut issues, it should definitely
+AD4-work from the command line.

+AD4-(To open the command line, Start -+AD4- Run -+AD4- type +ACI-cmd+ACI- and hit Return)




Hi Tal,

Couldn't wait to try your first suggestion so copied and pasted it and 
opened it straight from the desktop. Only just now have tried it from the 
command line and it works perfectly except that both double-clicking 
straight from the desktop and using the command line results in having that 
dreaded DOS window which sticks around behind the IDLE gui+ADs- is there any way 
to get rid of this unsightly black box (it's still haunting me).



+AD4- Which version of Windows are you using?


I'm running on Windows XP and have Python 2.4 installed.

There are two further problems I'm looking at that have been, as yet, 
unsolved and they are the following:



1. If I were to use your suggestion and send this game to a friend in an exe 
how would one code the following into the exe itself so that the following 
code: +ACI-C:+AFw-Python25+AFw-python.exe C:+AFw-Python25+AFw-Lib+AFw-idlelib+AFw-idle.py -r C:+AFw-hilo.py+ACI- 
would find it's way into the shortcut's properties on their computer? How 
would one code it so that the shortcut would install itself onto their 
desktop with the above code in their +ACI-start+ACI- and +ACI-target+ACI- areas+ADs- as well as 
the C:+AFw-hilo.py being installed automatically instead of manually as we've 
done in C:+AFw-? Would an +ACI-installer builder+ACI- such as Inno Setup or NSIS do the 
job for you automatically? I know a friend would have to have Python 
installed on their computer for the game to work.



2. I've been looking for a solution for string colouring for ages but also 
have had no success. The blue characters on white background in IDLE are 
very pleasing to the eye but occasionaly, when I run a program or game, I'd 
like to see the resulting string or strings that get spat out to be in 
different colours. For instance, say in my game hilo.py the strings +ACIAWw-Go 
higher+AF0AIg- or +ACIAWw-Go lower+AF0AIg- to be in different colours. Is there code for this 
that I could include into my programs/games?



I much appreciate your help.

Mark



From bradfenton1 at optusnet.com.au  Sat Aug 23 14:30:28 2008
From: bradfenton1 at optusnet.com.au (Mark Fenton)
Date: Sat, 23 Aug 2008 22:30:28 +1000
Subject: [Idle-dev] Problem
Message-ID: <7A7777F3C782440A99D3697D1513CD38@Mark>

Hi,

   I've just sent myself the same email that I'd previously sent to IDLE-dev 
and it seems to be OK. I remember that shortly after I wrote the email this 
morning my AVG Anti - Virus detected and isolated a Trojan. Shortly 
thereafter my copying and pasting from my WordPad to the email in Outlook 
jumped from Times New Roman to Arial for some unkown reason perhaps the 
Trojan was to blame...anyways, the email is below (here's hoping).



+AD4- Hi Mark,

+AD4- Did you try my first suggestion? If so, did you make sure to get it
+AD4- working from the command line first? Even if Vista (or some other
+AD4- version of Windows) has weird shortcut issues, it should definitely
+AD4-work from the command line.

+AD4-(To open the command line, Start -+AD4- Run -+AD4- type +ACI-cmd+ACI- and hit Return)




Hi Tal,

Couldn't wait to try your first suggestion so copied and pasted it and 
opened it straight from the desktop. Only just now have tried it from the 
command line and it works perfectly except that both double-clicking 
straight from the desktop and using the command line results in having that 
dreaded DOS window which sticks around behind the IDLE gui+ADs- is there any way 
to get rid of this unsightly black box (it's still haunting me).



+AD4- Which version of Windows are you using?


I'm running on Windows XP and have Python 2.4 installed.

There are two further problems I'm looking at that have been, as yet, 
unsolved and they are the following:



1. If I were to use your suggestion and send this game to a friend in an exe 
how would one code the following into the exe itself so that the following 
code: +ACI-C:+AFw-Python25+AFw-python.exe C:+AFw-Python25+AFw-Lib+AFw-idlelib+AFw-idle.py -r C:+AFw-hilo.py+ACI- 
would find it's way into the shortcut's properties on their computer? How 
would one code it so that the shortcut would install itself onto their 
desktop with the above code in their +ACI-start+ACI- and +ACI-target+ACI- areas+ADs- as well as 
the C:+AFw-hilo.py being installed automatically instead of manually as we've 
done in C:+AFw-? Would an +ACI-installer builder+ACI- such as Inno Setup or NSIS do the 
job for you automatically? I know a friend would have to have Python 
installed on their computer for the game to work.



2. I've been looking for a solution for +ACI-string colouring+ACI- for ages but have 
had no success. The blue characters on white background in IDLE are very 
pleasing to the eye but occasionaly, when I run a program, I'd like to see 
the resulting strings that get spat out to be in different colours. For 
instance, in say my game hilo.py the strings +ACI- +AFs-Go higher+AF0AIg- or +ACIAWw-Go lower+AF0AIg- 
would be in different colours. How would one include string colouring in my 
programs/games?



Thanks for helping.

Mark



From Scott.Daniels at Acm.Org  Sat Aug 23 16:36:06 2008
From: Scott.Daniels at Acm.Org (Scott David Daniels)
Date: Sat, 23 Aug 2008 07:36:06 -0700
Subject: [Idle-dev] Unsolved problem.
In-Reply-To: <7afdee2f0808220256g935fa14o2bae763894044981@mail.gmail.com>
References: <06284DD45D634315A1274D0908B2E5E9@Mark>
	<7afdee2f0808220256g935fa14o2bae763894044981@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <g8p6i8$vp6$1@ger.gmane.org>

Tal Einat wrote:
> Mark Fenton wrote:
>> Does anyone know how to do the following:
>> ...
>> Save the above as HiLo.py in site packages then put a shortcut onto desktop
>> and when it's double - clicked it comes up NOT in a black dos window but as
>> it would if one were to run it from the IDLE i.e., white background with
>> blue characters.
> 
> This works for me, after having saved the code as C:\hilo.py :
> 
> I create a shortcut to hilo.py on the desktop, then enter the
> shortcut's properties and enter this in the 'target' field:
> C:\Python25\python.exe C:\Python25\Lib\idlelib\idle.py -r C:\hilo.py
> (copy/paste and run this in the command line first to make sure that
> it works right)
> 
> You could alternatively change the 'start in' field to
> "C:\Python25\Lib\idlelib" (without the quotes), and the just have
> "idle.bat -r C:\hilo.py" in the 'target' field.

The missing part of the trick to eliminate the dread "DOS Box" is
to use "pythonw" rather than python.

If you really are using python 2.5(.*) or later, you can simplify
the command a bit:
     C:\Python25\pythonw.exe -m idlelib.idle -r C:\hilo.py
When using this, the "start in" field is irrelevant.

As to the colored text:
     print "foo"
     print >>sys.stderr, "mumble"
will print in a pair of colors in Idle (I don't think you get
general control over the colors.).

--Scott David Daniels
Scott.Daniels at Acm.Org


From bradfenton1 at optusnet.com.au  Sun Aug 24 03:07:59 2008
From: bradfenton1 at optusnet.com.au (Mark Fenton)
Date: Sun, 24 Aug 2008 11:07:59 +1000
Subject: [Idle-dev] (no subject)
Message-ID: <17E84C04CA754B5094E0BF442F2EE36C@Mark>

Hi,

    Tried your advise about using the "pythonw" configuration in the 
shortcut's properties, but sadly it didn't work, maybe it's because I'm 
using Pyhton24 which may make all the difference (not sure about this 
though).

More success on the colourization line of code though it produced only one 
colour and that was red. Put it into a while loop for 10 iterations to see 
if it would change colours after a while but ended up getting 10 red 
"mumbles". A partial success, but it's better than nothing because to date 
I've found nothing else in my long long searching on google about it. If I 
could find a small program to colourize strings that would be great as I 
don't know much about the colourzing process in python, but I guess there's 
not much call for colouring strings (unless for warnings etc) in general 
Python work. Thanks though for your help Scott.

Regards,
Mark 


From taleinat at gmail.com  Sun Aug 24 08:39:36 2008
From: taleinat at gmail.com (Tal Einat)
Date: Sun, 24 Aug 2008 09:39:36 +0300
Subject: [Idle-dev] (no subject)
In-Reply-To: <17E84C04CA754B5094E0BF442F2EE36C@Mark>
References: <17E84C04CA754B5094E0BF442F2EE36C@Mark>
Message-ID: <7afdee2f0808232339o610e03a0iab6a6e78ec0d1e6a@mail.gmail.com>

Mark Fenton wrote:
> Hi,
>
>   Tried your advise about using the "pythonw" configuration in the
> shortcut's properties, but sadly it didn't work, maybe it's because I'm
> using Pyhton24 which may make all the difference (not sure about this
> though).

Again, try this first in the command line; This worked for me:
C:\Python25\pythonw.exe -m idlelib.idle -r C:\hilo.py

> More success on the colourization line of code though it produced only one
> colour and that was red. ..., but I guess there's
> not much call for colouring strings (unless for warnings etc) in general
> Python work.

You're partially right, in the sense that IDLE does not support custom
colorized text output. The two colors you've found that you can use
are the colors IDLE uses to differentiate between stdout and stderr.

However, this is because IDLE is not meant to be used in this way.
IDLE is an interactive interpreter and code editor, but you're using
it as if it were a fancy shell with some GUI sprinkled on top.

Python itself does support colorized text output, as well as blinking
text and all sorts of other effects; IIRC the built-in 'curses' module
does some of this stuff. This will only work if you run the script
normally (i.e. in the black DOS window), though.

- Tal

From bradfenton1 at optusnet.com.au  Sun Aug 24 12:13:37 2008
From: bradfenton1 at optusnet.com.au (Mark Fenton)
Date: Sun, 24 Aug 2008 20:13:37 +1000
Subject: [Idle-dev] (no subject)
Message-ID: <CD97F69C3EA34C099C36FF36CA0EB1B9@Mark>

Hi Tal,

     >  Again, try this first in the command line; This worked for me:
     >  C:\Python25\pythonw.exe -m idlelib.idle -r C:\hilo.py

Tried about 20 different configurations of the above in the 'Target' area in 
the shortcut's properties but each time I double - clicked it it just sits 
there and does nothing. No result in the command line either. Has anything 
changed between 24 and 25 that could be the cause of this behaviour? Having 
said that, I'm still over the moon that I've got the IDLE window up thanks; 
but it would just be nice not to have that horrid little black box skulking 
around in the background.

     > However, this is because IDLE is not meant to be used in this way.
     > IDLE is an interactive interpreter and code editor, but you're using
     > it as if it were a fancy shell with some GUI sprinkled on top.

You're right, I'm definitely using it for something for which it's not meant 
to be used for. It's absolutely excellent for the everyday normal routine 
purposes, it's just that I'm using it in a different way from what is 
regarded as the norm.

     > Python itself does support colorized text output, as well as blinking
     > text and all sorts of other effects; IIRC the built-in 'curses' 
module
     > does some of this stuff. This will only work if you run the script
     > normally (i.e. in the black DOS window), though.

Guess there's no way then to colourize the IDLE unless one could hack the 
curses module to work inside of the IDLE.

Many thanks,
Mark




From Scott.Daniels at Acm.Org  Sun Aug 24 22:44:19 2008
From: Scott.Daniels at Acm.Org (Scott David Daniels)
Date: Sun, 24 Aug 2008 13:44:19 -0700
Subject: [Idle-dev] (no subject)
In-Reply-To: <17E84C04CA754B5094E0BF442F2EE36C@Mark>
References: <17E84C04CA754B5094E0BF442F2EE36C@Mark>
Message-ID: <g8sggh$hpa$1@ger.gmane.org>

Mark Fenton wrote:
>    Tried your advise about using the "pythonw" configuration in the 
> shortcut's properties, but sadly it didn't work, maybe it's because I'm 
> using Pyhton24 which may make all the difference (not sure about this 
> though).
Yup, the -m argument was introduced in 2.5.  However, the pythonw vs.
python is much older, so try:
  C:\Python24\pythonw.exe C:\Python24\Lib\idlelib\idle.pyw  -r C:\hilo.py
In the target line.

> More success on the colourization line of code though it produced only 
> one colour and that was red. The color is changeable by changing Idle
config, but if you are hoping for a cheap way into GUI, this isn't it;
bite the bullet and learn some Tkinter or wxPython, depending on your
tastes.  I'd go for Tkinter if you wan to learn up from low level, and
wxPython if you want to grab examples and modify to taste. (But that is
an entirely subjective view of the difference).

> .... If I could find a small program to colourize strings that 
> would be great as I don't know much about the colourzing process in 
> python, but I guess there's not much call for colouring strings (unless 
> for warnings etc) in general Python work. 
Well, Python itself has no model of the color of the text it is
outputting, so this is a matter of your communicating with the display 
infrastructure in and around the text you want it to display.  Python
doesn't know what screens, keyboards, and mice are; it would be happy
doing its I/O over a Morse code connection if you could really do that
(I think something about Morse code is ambiguous in a way people,
rather than machines, have no problem dealing with.)

I think I detect in you the hope that doing a GUI should not be
hard; you should be able to nickel and dime your way into it.  I
understand the sentiment.  I have for some time had the sneaky
suspicion that there is something small inside these GUI monsters
crying to get out, but I've felt that way since 1980, and I've
never read anything that makes me think,
     "Ahh, _that_ is how you do it simply and clearly."
So, perhaps I won't ever see that simplicity.  We certainly don't
reward simplicity in the normal software business anywhere so much
as we should.  Most buy-in-a-box software is evaluated by comparing 
feature lists, rewarding complicated over simple.  For that matter
gcc is no paragon of simplicity.  But Python is simple in the sense
I mean, and Google is simple in the "using it" sense as well, so
we can guess that the market does not completely punish simplicity.

--Scott David Daniels
Scott.Daniels at Acm.Org



From Bruce_Sherwood at ncsu.edu  Sun Aug 24 22:37:21 2008
From: Bruce_Sherwood at ncsu.edu (Bruce Sherwood)
Date: Sun, 24 Aug 2008 16:37:21 -0400
Subject: [Idle-dev] (no subject)
In-Reply-To: <g8sggh$hpa$1@ger.gmane.org>
References: <17E84C04CA754B5094E0BF442F2EE36C@Mark>
	<g8sggh$hpa$1@ger.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <48B1C681.6000400@ncsu.edu>

I'll mention that there exists an easy to use module for Python that 
creates navigable 3D animations, and simple GUI's, with remarkably 
little effort. See vpython.org; upon installation there are lots of 
example programs you can run (most easily from IDLE).

Bruce Sherwood

Scott David Daniels wrote:
> Mark Fenton wrote:

> 
> I think I detect in you the hope that doing a GUI should not be
> hard; you should be able to nickel and dime your way into it.  I
> understand the sentiment.  I have for some time had the sneaky
> suspicion that there is something small inside these GUI monsters
> crying to get out, but I've felt that way since 1980, and I've
> never read anything that makes me think,
>     "Ahh, _that_ is how you do it simply and clearly."
> So, perhaps I won't ever see that simplicity.  We certainly don't
> reward simplicity in the normal software business anywhere so much
> as we should.  Most buy-in-a-box software is evaluated by comparing 
> feature lists, rewarding complicated over simple.  For that matter
> gcc is no paragon of simplicity.  But Python is simple in the sense
> I mean, and Google is simple in the "using it" sense as well, so
> we can guess that the market does not completely punish simplicity.
> 
> --Scott David Daniels
> Scott.Daniels at Acm.Org
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> IDLE-dev mailing list
> IDLE-dev at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/idle-dev

From Scott.Daniels at Acm.Org  Sun Aug 24 23:40:50 2008
From: Scott.Daniels at Acm.Org (Scott David Daniels)
Date: Sun, 24 Aug 2008 14:40:50 -0700
Subject: [Idle-dev] (no subject)
In-Reply-To: <48B1C681.6000400@ncsu.edu>
References: <17E84C04CA754B5094E0BF442F2EE36C@Mark>	<g8sggh$hpa$1@ger.gmane.org>
	<48B1C681.6000400@ncsu.edu>
Message-ID: <g8sjqh$t5r$1@ger.gmane.org>

Bruce Sherwood wrote:
> Scott David Daniels wrote:
>> ....  I have for some time had the sneaky suspicion that there 
>> is something small inside these GUI monsters crying to get
>> out, but I've felt that way since 1980, and I've never read 
>> anything that makes me think,
>>     "Ahh, _that_ is how you do it simply and clearly."
>> So, perhaps I won't ever see that simplicity....
>
> I'll mention that there exists an easy to use module for Python that 
> creates navigable 3D animations, and simple GUI's, with remarkably 
> little effort. See vpython.org; upon installation there are lots of 
> example programs you can run (most easily from IDLE).
> 
Bruce is absolutely right, VPython does a great job of making a
complicated GUI environment simple.  I guess I mean that I think
there is a simple underlying model of _all_ GUI interfaces that is
not yet well-expressed or available.  I think PostScript comes as
close as we've got to 2-D image description (at least for diagrams),
but it has a _very_ operational, rather than declarative feel, and
does not seem like a set of clear simple primitives.

VPython does a great job of picking a problem area and getting to a
clear simple interface.  Its primitives are clear, concise, and
effective.  I recommend VPython to anyone I meet looking to try 3-D,
to the point I sometimes worry I sound like a broken record.  I had
great success using it to help me explore analysis of a strange
72-dimensional data set.  However, it does not seem to be a core 3-D
model that could be used for "everything" -- architecture through
chip design and heat analysis -- that is the thing I'm looking for,
an abstract framework into which VPython fits as an instance.

-Scott David Daniels
Scott.Daniels at Acm.Org


From Bruce_Sherwood at ncsu.edu  Sun Aug 24 23:37:45 2008
From: Bruce_Sherwood at ncsu.edu (Bruce Sherwood)
Date: Sun, 24 Aug 2008 17:37:45 -0400
Subject: [Idle-dev] (no subject)
In-Reply-To: <g8sjqh$t5r$1@ger.gmane.org>
References: <17E84C04CA754B5094E0BF442F2EE36C@Mark>	<g8sggh$hpa$1@ger.gmane.org>	<48B1C681.6000400@ncsu.edu>
	<g8sjqh$t5r$1@ger.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <48B1D4A9.1070003@ncsu.edu>

Thanks for the advertising!

Indeed, VPython is very far from a cross-platform GUI (or 3D) framework 
that is very much needed. A year ago I went through much pain trying to 
use GTK2 for VPython on Windows, Mac, and Linux. You might be interested 
in my essay about the daunting problems. See the "For developers" 
section of vpython.org.

Bruce Sherwood

Scott David Daniels wrote:
> Bruce Sherwood wrote:
>> Scott David Daniels wrote:
>>> ....  I have for some time had the sneaky suspicion that there is 
>>> something small inside these GUI monsters crying to get
>>> out, but I've felt that way since 1980, and I've never read anything 
>>> that makes me think,
>>>     "Ahh, _that_ is how you do it simply and clearly."
>>> So, perhaps I won't ever see that simplicity....
>>
>> I'll mention that there exists an easy to use module for Python that 
>> creates navigable 3D animations, and simple GUI's, with remarkably 
>> little effort. See vpython.org; upon installation there are lots of 
>> example programs you can run (most easily from IDLE).
>>
> Bruce is absolutely right, VPython does a great job of making a
> complicated GUI environment simple.  I guess I mean that I think
> there is a simple underlying model of _all_ GUI interfaces that is
> not yet well-expressed or available.  I think PostScript comes as
> close as we've got to 2-D image description (at least for diagrams),
> but it has a _very_ operational, rather than declarative feel, and
> does not seem like a set of clear simple primitives.
> 
> VPython does a great job of picking a problem area and getting to a
> clear simple interface.  Its primitives are clear, concise, and
> effective.  I recommend VPython to anyone I meet looking to try 3-D,
> to the point I sometimes worry I sound like a broken record.  I had
> great success using it to help me explore analysis of a strange
> 72-dimensional data set.  However, it does not seem to be a core 3-D
> model that could be used for "everything" -- architecture through
> chip design and heat analysis -- that is the thing I'm looking for,
> an abstract framework into which VPython fits as an instance.
> 
> -Scott David Daniels
> Scott.Daniels at Acm.Org
> 
> _______________________________________________
> IDLE-dev mailing list
> IDLE-dev at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/idle-dev

From bradfenton1 at optusnet.com.au  Mon Aug 25 06:17:17 2008
From: bradfenton1 at optusnet.com.au (Mark Fenton)
Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2008 14:17:17 +1000
Subject: [Idle-dev] (no subject)
Message-ID: <A2148B20F9374600B2160AE347A62FD8@Mark>

Hi,

    > Yup, the -m argument was introduced in 2.5.  However, the pythonw vs.
    > python is much older, so try:
    > C:\Python24\pythonw.exe C:\Python24\Lib\idlelib\idle.pyw  -r 
C:\hilo.py
    > In the target line.


    I suspected that the "-m" was at the heart of the problem as I've not 
seen this command line option in any 24 coding before...don't know if this 
is true but the program seems to launch much faster without the DOS window. 
But yes that definitely works! No black window haunting anymore! ;)

    > The color is changeable by changing Idle
    > config...

    I'll look into this.


    >  I think I detect in you the hope that doing a GUI should not be
    > hard; you should be able to nickel and dime your way into it.  I
    > understand the sentiment.  I have for some time had the sneaky
    > suspicion that there is something small inside these GUI monsters
    > crying to get out, but I've felt that way since 1980, and I've
    > never read anything that makes me think,
    >      "Ahh, _that_ is how you do it simply and clearly."
    > So, perhaps I won't ever see that simplicity.  We certainly don't
    > reward simplicity in the normal software business anywhere so much
    > as we should.  Most buy-in-a-box software is evaluated by comparing
    > feature lists, rewarding complicated over simple.  For that matter
    > gcc is no paragon of simplicity.  But Python is simple in the sense
    > I mean, and Google is simple in the "using it" sense as well, so
    > we can guess that the market does not completely punish simplicity.

    When I first started coding for GUI's/Widgets I imagined that anything 
could be done and all of it on the one GUI or Widget, but boy was I in for a 
shock. My naivety was quickly shattered when I tried to implement a game 
like hilo.py to run on the Python "Listbox Widget" type of GUI (inputing on 
a scrolling interface). The Listbox Widget for a start doesn't support a 
program running on it's scrolling interface with continual input from the 
user neither does "The Entry Widget", "The Canvas Widget" or the "The Text 
Widget" because what I'm after is the twin fuctionality of: (1) a scrolling 
interface (2) continuing input from the user onto that same GUI interface 
itself i.e., input from the user then an answer from the running program 
such as the simple hilo.py example. This type of example cannot be run on 
any of the above. "Easygui", "Anygui", "WxPython", "PyGtk", "PyQt", 
"PythonCard" ad infinitum a lot of hair pulling and gnashing of teeth 
occured as I've tried them all over at least a six month period and NONE had 
the twin functionality of the Python IDLE that was so needed; conseqeuntly I 
kept on coming back to where I had started from in the first place...IDLE. 
The coding for the most part on all these GUIs and Widgets was in some cases 
easy enough and the coding part itself was not the real problem which was 
and is those dual capabilities that I'm searching for and this was and is 
only to be found in the Python IDLE itself  (if I'm wrong about this I would 
absolutely love to know about it). Along the way I've found out there are 
many different types of GUIs and Widgets catering for just about everyone's 
taste depending on what their specific long term goals are.

    > I'll mention that there exists an easy to use module for Python that
    > creates navigable 3D animations, and simple GUI's, with remarkably
    > little effort. See vpython.org; upon installation there are lots of
    > example programs you can run (most easily from IDLE).

    I have little hair remaining and am left in quite a gummy state now but 
after I recover will try VPython at the soonest opportunity:)

Regards,
Mark






From jhocking at newarteest.com  Sun Aug 24 18:04:56 2008
From: jhocking at newarteest.com (Joseph Hocking)
Date: Sun, 24 Aug 2008 11:04:56 -0500
Subject: [Idle-dev] Two small feature suggestions
Message-ID: <a227ef350808240904i4434690ga3878ac29074f81e@mail.gmail.com>

Hello, I am new to IDLE and have two small feature suggestions for future
development.  I apologize if these features are already in IDLE and I've
simply failed to notice; I tried looking in the documentation webpage and
found nothing.

First off, it would be great if hitting Home took you to the start of the
text on a line, not the very beginning of the line.  I'm hard pressed to
imagine a situation where going to the literal beginning of the line while
coding would be useful, but it's very useful to snap to the start of text on
a line while moving the cursor around with the keyboard.

Second, the Class Browser could be improved a great deal by having an
automatic update.  There's no need to update while writing code, but it
would be great if the browser list updated whenever you saved the file.

Incidentally, both of these are implemented in other Python editors like
DrPython (my favorite of the several I've tried so far) so I wouldn't
consider this high priority, just a small suggestion from a new user.
Thanks!

-- 
-Joe Hocking
www.newarteest.com
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://mail.python.org/pipermail/idle-dev/attachments/20080824/679b2504/attachment.htm>

From bradfenton1 at optusnet.com.au  Tue Aug 26 04:03:08 2008
From: bradfenton1 at optusnet.com.au (Mark Fenton)
Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2008 12:03:08 +1000
Subject: [Idle-dev] (no subject)
Message-ID: <A07C6F81D081405280080704F1690F9E@Mark>

Hi Joe,

          > First off, it would be great if hitting Home took you to the 
start of the text on a line, not the very beginning of the line.  I'm hard 
pressed to imagine a             >  situation where going to the literal 
beginning of the line while coding would be useful, but it's very useful to 
snap to the start of text on a line while moving
          >  the cursor around with the keyboard.

For user preferences "configHandler.py" would most likely be the place to 
start (according to one of the emails above). As for how to code for your 
own preferences your guess is as good as mine as the notebooks in the 
Lib\idlelib section (for a newbie at least) are not particularily clear 
about how to do this; lacking any coding examples about how one should code 
for the desired result. It would be helpful indeed if they could include 
within these notebooks, for newbies like us, one or preferibly two consise 
ways to use the "configHandler.py" not in pseudo code but in real Python 
code dumbed - down enough for the general user to understand. Examples such 
as these would only enhance Python's already user - friendly reputation as 
an easy to use and understand programming language.

           >  Second, the Class Browser could be improved a great deal by 
having an automatic update.  There's no need to update while writing code, 
but it would
           >  be great if the browser list updated whenever you saved the 
file.

Failing any result from the above, google's always there to help.

Regards,
Mark
 


From taleinat at gmail.com  Tue Aug 26 09:25:26 2008
From: taleinat at gmail.com (Tal Einat)
Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2008 10:25:26 +0300
Subject: [Idle-dev] Two small feature suggestions
In-Reply-To: <a227ef350808240904i4434690ga3878ac29074f81e@mail.gmail.com>
References: <a227ef350808240904i4434690ga3878ac29074f81e@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <7afdee2f0808260025i15b04f5j2675ca0c6dc323c2@mail.gmail.com>

Joseph Hocking wrote:
> Hello, I am new to IDLE and have two small feature suggestions for future
> development.  I apologize if these features are already in IDLE and I've
> simply failed to notice; I tried looking in the documentation webpage and
> found nothing.
>
> First off, it would be great if hitting Home took you to the start of the
> text on a line, not the very beginning of the line.  I'm hard pressed to
> imagine a situation where going to the literal beginning of the line while
> coding would be useful, but it's very useful to snap to the start of text on
> a line while moving the cursor around with the keyboard.
>
> Second, the Class Browser could be improved a great deal by having an
> automatic update.  There's no need to update while writing code, but it
> would be great if the browser list updated whenever you saved the file.
>
> Incidentally, both of these are implemented in other Python editors like
> DrPython (my favorite of the several I've tried so far) so I wouldn't
> consider this high priority, just a small suggestion from a new user.
> Thanks!

Hi Joseph,

First off, welcome to IDLE-dev! Thank you for taking the time to join
the list and tell us about your ideas.

I'm at work now and must keep it short, but your ideas sound good to
me. The first reminds me of a feature in IDLE's Shell window where the
Home key moves the cursor to after the ">>> " at the beginning of the
command line when appropriate, so implementing this should be
reasonably easy. The second feature sounds reasonable and possible; I
honestly don't remember whether or not IDLE has such a feature already
since I hardly ever use the class browser. I'll take a look when I
have more time.

Again, thank you and welcome!

- Tal