From mats@laplaza.org  Thu Jan 11 10:25:58 2001
From: mats@laplaza.org (Mats Wichmann)
Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2001 05:25:58 -0500
Subject: [Idle-dev] IDLE on Linux - any known probs
In-Reply-To: <200012280124.UAA23363@cj20424-a.reston1.va.home.com>
References: <Your message of "Wed, 27 Dec 2000 18:26:21 EST." <Pine.LNX.4.21.0012271813390.18701-100000@zaibach.twistedmatrix.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.21.0012271813390.18701-100000@zaibach.twistedmatrix.com>
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.1.20010111051930.02ed3aa0@mail.laplaza.org>

Lazy approach:  I've got really really bad
connectivity this week.  Before I go hunting
through a (groan) web-based interface for
bugs, are there any known issues with the
IDLE that comes with Python 2.0 when running
on Linux?

I'm doing a class this week where we've got
both Linux machines and Win2000... IDLE is
doing some odd things, most of them not following
its' own keyboard shortcuts, on Linux (RH 6.2
and Mandrake 7.0). Both installed from the
BeOpen*rpms ....  Nary a problem on Windows,
which, *natch*, is where I did the bulk of
my testing...

(F5 and ctrl-F5 do nothing; Alt-W is claimed
to be Cut but actually pops up the Window
menu, etc. and trying to use the menu to run a file
is problematic too:  IDLE always thinks the
buffer is modified if you do that, so you have
to first select-all before you can run.. Sigh)



From guido@python.org  Thu Jan 11 22:10:49 2001
From: guido@python.org (Guido van Rossum)
Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2001 17:10:49 -0500
Subject: [Idle-dev] IDLE on Linux - any known probs
In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 11 Jan 2001 05:25:58 EST."
 <5.0.2.1.1.20010111051930.02ed3aa0@mail.laplaza.org>
References: <Your message of "Wed, 27 Dec 2000 18:26:21 EST." <Pine.LNX.4.21.0012271813390.18701-100000@zaibach.twistedmatrix.com> <Pine.LNX.4.21.0012271813390.18701-100000@zaibach.twistedmatrix.com>
 <5.0.2.1.1.20010111051930.02ed3aa0@mail.laplaza.org>
Message-ID: <200101112210.RAA16798@cj20424-a.reston1.va.home.com>

> Lazy approach:  I've got really really bad
> connectivity this week.  Before I go hunting
> through a (groan) web-based interface for
> bugs, are there any known issues with the
> IDLE that comes with Python 2.0 when running
> on Linux?

There's no specific bug tracker for IDLE, and I don't recall seeing
many IDLE bugs in the Python bug tracker at SourceForge.

> I'm doing a class this week where we've got
> both Linux machines and Win2000... IDLE is
> doing some odd things, most of them not following
> its' own keyboard shortcuts, on Linux (RH 6.2
> and Mandrake 7.0). Both installed from the
> BeOpen*rpms ....  Nary a problem on Windows,
> which, *natch*, is where I did the bulk of
> my testing...
> 
> (F5 and ctrl-F5 do nothing; Alt-W is claimed
> to be Cut but actually pops up the Window
> menu, etc. and trying to use the menu to run a file
> is problematic too:  IDLE always thinks the
> buffer is modified if you do that, so you have
> to first select-all before you can run.. Sigh)

The Alt-W problem is confirmed; this is due to ambiguities in the key
bindings.  You'll have to live with Cut using the menu, or you can
tweak it to use the Windows bindings.  (Sorry, I can't tell you how to
do this, but it should be pretty easy.)

I haven't seen a problem with the complaint about the buffer being
modified, but I know of a confusing feature that might be related: if
the current window is the *Python Shell* window, it always says that.
(You have to click in the module's window before running it.)

The problem with F5 or Ctl-F5 not working may be due to your window
manager catching those keys.

--Guido van Rossum (home page: http://www.python.org/~guido/)


From mats@laplaza.org  Wed Jan 17 15:34:39 2001
From: mats@laplaza.org (Mats Wichmann)
Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2001 08:34:39 -0700
Subject: [Idle-dev] Re: IDLE on Linux
In-Reply-To: <200101112210.RAA16798@cj20424-a.reston1.va.home.com>
References: <Your message of "Thu, 11 Jan 2001 05:25:58 EST." <5.0.2.1.1.20010111051930.02ed3aa0@mail.laplaza.org>
 <Your message of "Wed, 27 Dec 2000 18:26:21 EST." <Pine.LNX.4.21.0012271813390.18701-100000@zaibach.twistedmatrix.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.21.0012271813390.18701-100000@zaibach.twistedmatrix.com>
 <5.0.2.1.1.20010111051930.02ed3aa0@mail.laplaza.org>
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.1.20010117082411.029551e0@mail.laplaza.org>

I posted last week with some concerns.

A lot of these seem to be conflicts over key bindings,
rather than real "problems", something which occurred
to me about a half-hour after posting - posting a
message seems to be the normal method for breaking a
brain spinlock...

For example, Alt-<x> habitually selects a menu
labelled <x> if a Windows-style interface is being
used.  KDE, of course, tries to present a Windows-
flavored interface, thus the Alt-W problem (as
Guido replied).  This might also be true for CDE,
although I haven't tried it.

Changing the key bindings isn't hard... since they're
localized to a single file.  Picking sensible ones
is somewhat less easy.  I can cerainly fix my
classroom problem by arbitrarily choosing the
bindings I want, and hope that doesn't confuse
folks when they go away to other systems with
different key bindings...

Leading me to today's question:

How did the bindings for "UNIX" get chosen?  what
would make a sensible set, that is not likely to
conflict with existing usage on a reasonable
subset of UNIX machines (certainly including
Linux where Python has the advantage of being
included "standard")?  Is there any way to pick
them so they're even slightly mnemonic (I find
a number of entries in the current set non-intuitive,
personally). Are such questions even answerable,
or worth worrying about?


Mats



From guido@python.org  Wed Jan 17 21:01:58 2001
From: guido@python.org (Guido van Rossum)
Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2001 16:01:58 -0500
Subject: [Idle-dev] Re: IDLE on Linux
In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 17 Jan 2001 08:34:39 MST."
 <5.0.2.1.1.20010117082411.029551e0@mail.laplaza.org>
References: <Your message of "Thu, 11 Jan 2001 05:25:58 EST." <5.0.2.1.1.20010111051930.02ed3aa0@mail.laplaza.org> <Your message of "Wed, 27 Dec 2000 18:26:21 EST." <Pine.LNX.4.21.0012271813390.18701-100000@zaibach.twistedmatrix.com> <Pine.LNX.4.21.0012271813390.18701-100000@zaibach.twistedmatrix.com> <5.0.2.1.1.20010111051930.02ed3aa0@mail.laplaza.org>
 <5.0.2.1.1.20010117082411.029551e0@mail.laplaza.org>
Message-ID: <200101172101.QAA26534@cj20424-a.reston1.va.home.com>

> How did the bindings for "UNIX" get chosen?  what
> would make a sensible set, that is not likely to
> conflict with existing usage on a reasonable
> subset of UNIX machines (certainly including
> Linux where Python has the advantage of being
> included "standard")?  Is there any way to pick
> them so they're even slightly mnemonic (I find
> a number of entries in the current set non-intuitive,
> personally). Are such questions even answerable,
> or worth worrying about?

Certainly good questions!

The Unix key bindings came from several sources.

- Default edit keys in the Tk Text widget, mostly copied from Emacs
  (e.g. ^A)

- File operations (e.g. ^X^F), chosen by me, mostly copied from Emacs

- Alt-key combinations for menus and menu entries, provided
  semi-automatically by the Tk menu bar (e.g. Alt-W)

- Other things for which I didn't have an example I just made up, or
  borrowed from Windows

I think maybe two sets should be offered for Unix: one set more like
Windows, and one set more like Emacs...

--Guido van Rossum (home page: http://www.python.org/~guido/)


From mats@laplaza.org  Thu Jan 18 15:48:27 2001
From: mats@laplaza.org (Mats Wichmann)
Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2001 08:48:27 -0700
Subject: [Idle-dev] Re: IDLE on Linux
In-Reply-To: <200101172101.QAA26534@cj20424-a.reston1.va.home.com>
References: <Your message of "Wed, 17 Jan 2001 08:34:39 MST." <5.0.2.1.1.20010117082411.029551e0@mail.laplaza.org>
 <Your message of "Thu, 11 Jan 2001 05:25:58 EST." <5.0.2.1.1.20010111051930.02ed3aa0@mail.laplaza.org>
 <Your message of "Wed, 27 Dec 2000 18:26:21 EST." <Pine.LNX.4.21.0012271813390.18701-100000@zaibach.twistedmatrix.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.21.0012271813390.18701-100000@zaibach.twistedmatrix.com>
 <5.0.2.1.1.20010111051930.02ed3aa0@mail.laplaza.org>
 <5.0.2.1.1.20010117082411.029551e0@mail.laplaza.org>
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.1.20010117143724.02fc9ec0@mail.laplaza.org>

 >I think maybe two sets should be offered for Unix: one set more like
 >Windows, and one set more like Emacs...

Given the CDE objective to be Windows-ish (although it's Windows 3.1-era),
and the KDE options to be Windows-ish, this sounds like a good plan.

Mats





From Shawn Zilbert" <szilbert@plix.com  Sat Jan 27 20:28:03 2001
From: Shawn Zilbert" <szilbert@plix.com (Shawn Zilbert)
Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2001 12:28:03 -0800
Subject: [Idle-dev] disappearing IDLE menu items under Win98
Message-ID: <000701c0889f$df15cf60$7f0398d0@a.davis.ispchannel.com>

I downloaded and did a full install of python 2.0 under Windows 98 for the
first time yesterday. Everything appeared to work, except whenever I brought
up any of the menus (file, edit, debug, etc)  the menu items disappeared
after about half a second. I would click on "file", the menu would appear,
the menu items would appear, the menu items would disappear. If I ran my
cursor over the invisible menu items they would reappear and stay reappeared
for as long as I had that menu open. The menu items work, it's just that I
annoyingly can't see them.

I am running Windows 98. I download python 2.0 for win32 from pythonlabs.com
and installed it in c:\progra~1\python20. It didn't work.
I edited my autoexec.bat as the docs said to. didnt work.
I downloaded the newest Tcl/Tk, installed that. IDLE still didnt work right.
I  uninstalled 2.0 and downloaded Python 2.1a1 and installed that. It didn't
fix the problem.
I searched the website and newsgroups for instances of other people having
this problem. I didn't find anything.
I'm not quite sure what else to do, being new to python (though I have done
some programming before)

This maybe doesn't seem quite the right mailinglist to post this problem to,
but it seemed to be the best out of the ones that I saw.

Can anybody help me?

Thanks in advance,
Shawn Zilbert






From guido@digicool.com  Wed Jan 31 05:17:38 2001
From: guido@digicool.com (Guido van Rossum)
Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2001 00:17:38 -0500
Subject: [Idle-dev] disappearing IDLE menu items under Win98
In-Reply-To: Your message of "Sat, 27 Jan 2001 12:28:03 PST."
 <000701c0889f$df15cf60$7f0398d0@a.davis.ispchannel.com>
References: <000701c0889f$df15cf60$7f0398d0@a.davis.ispchannel.com>
Message-ID: <200101310517.AAA31578@cj20424-a.reston1.va.home.com>

> I downloaded and did a full install of python 2.0 under Windows 98 for the
> first time yesterday. Everything appeared to work, except whenever I brought
> up any of the menus (file, edit, debug, etc)  the menu items disappeared
> after about half a second. I would click on "file", the menu would appear,
> the menu items would appear, the menu items would disappear. If I ran my
> cursor over the invisible menu items they would reappear and stay reappeared
> for as long as I had that menu open. The menu items work, it's just that I
> annoyingly can't see them.
> 
> I am running Windows 98. I download python 2.0 for win32 from pythonlabs.com
> and installed it in c:\progra~1\python20. It didn't work.
> I edited my autoexec.bat as the docs said to. didnt work.
> I downloaded the newest Tcl/Tk, installed that. IDLE still didnt work right.
> I  uninstalled 2.0 and downloaded Python 2.1a1 and installed that. It didn't
> fix the problem.
> I searched the website and newsgroups for instances of other people having
> this problem. I didn't find anything.
> I'm not quite sure what else to do, being new to python (though I have done
> some programming before)
> 
> This maybe doesn't seem quite the right mailinglist to post this problem to,
> but it seemed to be the best out of the ones that I saw.
> 
> Can anybody help me?
> 
> Thanks in advance,
> Shawn Zilbert

I haven't seen any responses to this, and I can't reproduce this on my
own Win98 machine -- IDLE works great, with all mentioned versions of
Python, including menus!

Based on past trouble reports, it's very likely that *something* in
your Win98 installation is hosed.  In true Microsoft vein, I can only
recommend to reinstall Windows98 (or better, upgrade to Linux :-).

Seriously, most likely another application, tool or utility that you
have installed interferes with the graphics request by Python via
Tcl/Tk.  It's impossible for someone to help you with that without
access to your computer.  Try installing Python on somebody else's
computer running the same OS -- if it works there, see which
applications (etc.) you have installed that they haven't.

It's Windows, so it must be buggy...

--Guido van Rossum (home page: http://www.python.org/~guido/)