[EuroPython] Work on Call for Participation for EuroPython 2015 has started

[Paul Boddie]

On Saturday 1. February 2014 21.24.02 Hynek Schlawack wrote:
> On 1 Feb 2014, at 20:36, Paul Boddie wrote:
> >>> I'd actually rather cap the number of attendees than raise prices.
> >> 
> >> I find this an unfortunate line of though; EuroPython is the *only*
> >> explicitly European Python conference.
> > 
> > That just isn't true. Take a look at http://www.pycon.org/ to see
> > several
> > European Python conferences.
> 
> Please point them out to me, I see only EuroSciPy and regional ones.

OK, you meant pan-European conferences or conferences trying to attract people 
from other countries. That said, people go to PyCon UK from other countries, 
and although it is obviously convenient for UK-based people, I don't think it 
is trying to be specifically UK-oriented. The same goes for many of the 
others, I imagine. PyCon Finland, for example, seems to have a lot of English 
on its site and in its schedule for a "regional" conference.

(I can tell you that as far as I know, EuroPython 2009 in the UK actually had 
almost half of its attendees coming from the UK. Maybe that's the lower bound 
on UK attendance that you get by applying "Euro" to something and that it's 
more like 80% UK attendees for PyCon UK, but I don't really think the events 
are any different just because of the name.)

> > On this point you *can* compare the situation to that of seven or more
> > years ago, or perhaps as far back as the first EuroPython conference
> > (which is before my time), because back then it wasn't certain that there
> > was enough interest in a Python conference in many places. Now, you have
> > around ten general Python conferences and a bunch of specialised Python
> > conferences merely in Europe and not including EuroPython.
> 
> Yeah that’s the point, isn’t it?  We *do* have smaller regional
> ones; but I see the demand for a big pan-European one.

OK, maybe there's nothing really to discuss, then. People can go to a smaller 
conference and probably pay less, or they can go to a bigger one and 
potentially pay more.

> >> Keeping it artificially small just makes it either less interesting
> >> or simply elitist.
> > 
> > There are plenty of options when it comes to attending small
> > conferences.
> 
> Exactly!
> 
> So why should EuroPython become artificially another one?

For the record, EuroPython was quite small to start with, which shouldn't be a 
huge surprise because that's often how things start out. From what I can dig 
up [*], it had about 250 people in 2002/2003, went up gradually to about 280 
in 2006, was around 220 in 2007/2008, and then shot up to around 450 in 2009. 
You can see how large PyCon was over the years as well [**]. So, it was only 
around 2008 that these conferences started to grow more than what you can 
regard as "organically".

[*] https://wiki.python.org/moin/EuroPython/2007
[**] https://wiki.python.org/moin/PyCon/Attendance

[...]

> There is, and that’s exactly my point: we *do* have small conferences
> (and they are getting more).
> 
> > And I sincerely doubt that smaller conferences are less interesting.
> 
> I didn’t say that, did I?

Well, I'm not sure what you were trying to say. You did say this: "Keeping it 
artificially small just makes it either less interesting or simply elitist."

> > I would consider going to a number of them if I weren't so lazy. PyCon UK
> > and PyCon Italia are both apparently very good. PyCon DE also seems very
> > solid.
> 
> This is interesting because PyCon DE was way more expensive in the past
> years than EP.

OK, but I didn't say anything about price, other than that some people care a 
lot about the price. So maybe PyCon DE wasn't for them.

[...]

> > I think it's useful to discuss what the "EP-experience" is. Is it a
> > thousand-plus people in a "bet the farm" mega-event or is it something
> > smaller and more manageable? Is it a once a year thing or should there be
> > many events throughout the year? Is it an "eyes forward" conventional
> > conference or an unconference? Does it even matter if it's called
> > EuroPython?
> 
> If a conference is called “EuroPython”, I certainly expect something
> different than from a regional one. For example, that most of the
> schedule is in English.

This is the case for quite a few of them. Maybe not all of them, but I get 
your point.

> See it that way: for me and many others conferences are mostly about
> people.  If I have to attend three conferences instead of one to meet
> all my Internet friends, it gets more expensive very fast.  And big
> confs also attract our friends from overseas, it’s very nice to see
> them more than once a year.

Well, that's great, and it's good to know that you get so much out of these 
events. I admit that people suggested FOSDEM to me as a venue to catch up, 
although FSCONS - a much smaller event - served a similar purpose for me in 
the past. I guess it can also depend on how specific the event is and how you 
know those people, and I guess it's hard if what you have in common with them 
is quite general and not confined to a fairly narrow interest (so they can't 
all be tempted into going to a smaller, perhaps cheaper, conference).

> > It's not a purely a choice between a PyCon mega-event and an elitist
> > get-together, as I've noted above. Indeed, Europe has once again shown the
> > way with regard to establishing community conferences that most probably
> > provide the necessary capacity for those wanting to attend a conference,
> > whatever their preferences are.
> 
> It certainly is for a particular conference (EP in this case).  Nobody
> is arguing that *every* conference should aspire to grow like PyCon US.
> But I’m going to argue that downsizing an established conference is a
> waste and the wrong step.

I haven't followed EuroPython over the last three years, so I cannot comment 
on how many people were there, but if we're at a thousand people now then this 
is effectively PyCon-style growth (maybe not quite as aggressive given that 
they're at 2000 people now, I think). Perhaps the emergence of what you call 
"regional" conferences is a response to that.

I'd be really interested in knowing whether former EuroPython organisers would 
be interested in running the conference again either at the level it was at 
when they ran it or at its current level. I can well imagine that many people 
just don't want the hassle of stepping up to the larger venues, where the 
stakes can be quite a bit higher (just ask the PSF), and the need to find 
people willing to run such events is precisely the problem that the EuroPython 
Society seems to have walked into.

[...]

> > If you're interested in running a big conference and doing so without
> > ripping people off, I'm sure people would welcome your involvement. But as
> > I'm sure you know already, large conference or small conference, you'll be
> > investing a fair amount of your own time just to keep the costs down and
> > to make it all happen.
> 
> I’m not sure what you’re arguing for or against; because you’re
> basically just validating what I was saying?

No, I was just saying that you seem to be exactly the kind of person the 
EuroPython Society is looking for to organise the kind of large-scale event 
that you'd like to see in Europe that is neither "regional" nor "sciency".

> There have been claims that we should cap the size in the future so we
> get cheaper so everybody can attend financially (but not realistically
> because of the artificial limit).  I was arguing against that.  Neither
> did I say that small conferences are without merit, nor did I voice
> disapproval with the organizers of EP14.  All I’m saying is that there
> is a need for a big European conference and it would be sad if EP threw
> away its reputation it built in Florence and tried to become a small
> conference with a big name.

Well, fair enough. I was just pointing out that EuroPython was not 
traditionally this big - however big it actually is now - and that there are 
practical constraints that mean that people do sensibly suggest a limit on the 
number of people who can go.

Ultimately, it comes down to whether you can find a bunch of organisers who 
will take on handling a large number of conference attendees at a venue that 
may very well be beyond the budget and levels of risk that they are used to, 
and where the scale of the facility may automatically take them into "premium" 
territory, depending on where and how well-connected they are.

Perhaps it would be sad to downsize EuroPython, but unless you have people 
willing to take the conference on at the scale you prefer - and they do have 
valid reasons to be wary of doing so - then there may be no other choice. 
That's all I'm saying.

Paul