From emily.bache at bredband.net Mon Oct 4 10:21:26 2004 From: emily.bache at bredband.net (Emily Bache) Date: Mon Oct 4 10:21:21 2004 Subject: [EuroPython] next year's europython conference Message-ID: <41610806.6010903@bredband.net> Hi, I was just wondering if you could give me the dates of the next europython conference? Will it be in G?teborg again? I basically want to know if it clashes with XP2005 which will be June 18th - 23rd. I looked on the website (europython.org) but it says nothing about the 2005 python conference. Regards, Emily Bache From bea at webwitches.com Mon Oct 4 13:42:01 2004 From: bea at webwitches.com (Beatrice Fontaine) Date: Mon Oct 4 13:38:11 2004 Subject: [EuroPython] EPC 2005: where and when? Message-ID: <1096890121.32110.12.camel@ogg.webwitches.com> Hi there! Emily's question definitely brings it up: what's the story with EPC 2005? I believe that the local organisers were more than happy to have it in G?teborg again and many people responded very positively when spontaneously asked there after M.S.'s key note. I personally took it as a given that it would happen there again in 2005, but somewhere else in 2006. Is that every one else's point of view? I have to admit that I did not analyse the data from the questionnaires over the summer period, and I don't think anyone else did. I am therefore not sure at all about what those forms have to say about the "where". However, maybe we should start by asking if Jacob, Laura, Dario and their team actually still want to hold it in their city in 2005, and start it from there? The next question automatically ensuing from that is who is actually producing the new content for the website - which has to be the local organiser (the "thank you for the last one" and "welcome to the next one" part). Connected to that is the question as to whether we continue using Plone - before we even begin working on the site. There obviously was disagreement on that too and it would be very useful to get that aspect dealt with asap. So, I guess we need a statement of intent from the local organisers, the track chairs, volunteers, etc... to see who is ready to start rolling for EPC 2005. Maybe many things have been going on off-list already, but I think it's time to get moving again. What do you all think of that? ciao bea -- bea@webwitches.com "My agenda is so hidden that I can't find it myself". Me. From ghum at gmx.net Mon Oct 4 14:27:40 2004 From: ghum at gmx.net (Harald Armin Massa) Date: Mon Oct 4 14:27:34 2004 Subject: [EuroPython] EPC 2005: where and when? In-Reply-To: <1096890121.32110.12.camel@ogg.webwitches.com> References: <1096890121.32110.12.camel@ogg.webwitches.com> Message-ID: <416141BC.508@gmx.net> Bea, >I personally took it as >a given that it would happen there again in 2005, but somewhere else in >2006. Is that every one else's point of view? > > At least it is my point of view. There were some discussions about CERN, but the Pythoneers from there did not seem to unlucky to have EP in Switzerland in 2006. And Goetheborg was a great, great conference; all the organizers, especially the local ones, did a terrific job, I really liked it! We all gathered a lot of knowledge for possible improvements (small things lile timing of lunch brakes) and so I really recommend to have a second shot at Goetheborg. From another organisation with "moving conferences" I know it is great fun to have organizers who "want to do next years conference" to give a small presentation of their site at the conference; that also attracts a lot participants there! (*wink to the people from switzerland*) >So, I guess we need a statement of intent from the local organisers, the >track chairs, volunteers, etc... to see who is ready to start rolling >for EPC 2005. Maybe many things have been going on off-list already, but >I think it's time to get moving again. What do you all think of that? > > You are right, Bea, lets get moving. Harald -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: ghum.vcf Type: text/x-vcard Size: 366 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://mail.python.org/pipermail/europython/attachments/20041004/1e5ed05a/ghum.vcf From mwh at python.net Mon Oct 4 15:35:42 2004 From: mwh at python.net (Michael Hudson) Date: Mon Oct 4 15:35:44 2004 Subject: [EuroPython] EPC 2005: where and when? In-Reply-To: <1096890121.32110.12.camel@ogg.webwitches.com> (Beatrice Fontaine's message of "Mon, 04 Oct 2004 13:42:01 +0200") References: <1096890121.32110.12.camel@ogg.webwitches.com> Message-ID: <2mr7oemwr5.fsf@starship.python.net> Beatrice Fontaine writes: > Hi there! > > Emily's question definitely brings it up: what's the story with EPC > 2005? > > I believe that the local organisers were more than happy to have it in > G?teborg again and many people responded very positively when > spontaneously asked there after M.S.'s key note. I personally took it as > a given that it would happen there again in 2005, but somewhere else in > 2006. Is that every one else's point of view? Well, it was mine, at least. All else being equal, moving somewhere else in 2006 gets my vote, but that's a ways off yet... > However, maybe we should start by asking if Jacob, Laura, Dario and > their team actually still want to hold it in their city in 2005, and > start it from there? The next question automatically ensuing from that > is who is actually producing the new content for the website - which has > to be the local organiser (the "thank you for the last one" and "welcome > to the next one" part). Connected to that is the question as to whether > we continue using Plone - before we even begin working on the site. > There obviously was disagreement on that too and it would be very useful > to get that aspect dealt with asap. Well, that very much depends on who does the work. I would hope that now there's a bit more (hurredly acquired...) plone experience around, working with next year's site would be easier than this year's was. I'm also looking for less, not more, involvement on my part... Cheers, mwh -- MARVIN: What a depressingly stupid machine. -- The Hitch-Hikers Guide to the Galaxy, Episode 7 From lac at strakt.com Mon Oct 4 16:22:16 2004 From: lac at strakt.com (Laura Creighton) Date: Mon Oct 4 16:22:26 2004 Subject: [EuroPython] EPC 2005: where and when? In-Reply-To: Message from Beatrice Fontaine of "Mon, 04 Oct 2004 13:42:01 +0200." <1096890121.32110.12.camel@ogg.webwitches.com> References: <1096890121.32110.12.camel@ogg.webwitches.com> Message-ID: <200410041422.i94EMGtB023457@ratthing-b246.strakt.com> I've booked SGS Veckobost?der again for the week of June 26th through 3 July. So if we aren't having it in G?teborg again at that time, somebody had better tell me so that I can cancel this :-) Laura From bea at webwitches.com Mon Oct 4 16:54:06 2004 From: bea at webwitches.com (Beatrice Fontaine) Date: Mon Oct 4 16:50:16 2004 Subject: [EuroPython] EPC 2005: where and when? In-Reply-To: <200410041422.i94EMGtB023457@ratthing-b246.strakt.com> References: <1096890121.32110.12.camel@ogg.webwitches.com> <200410041422.i94EMGtB023457@ratthing-b246.strakt.com> Message-ID: <1096901646.32110.60.camel@ogg.webwitches.com> On Mon, 2004-10-04 at 16:22, Laura Creighton wrote: > I've booked SGS Veckobost?der again for the week of June 26th through 3 July. > So if we aren't having it in G?teborg again at that time, somebody > had better tell me so that I can cancel this :-) :) Aaah, so that was the answer to where and when then :) Or, let's put it this way: your intention no take it on board again could not have been stated more clearly :) How are we going to proceed with this? How does one take it as given or not given that it will be in G?teborg? Do we actually even _begin_ discussing this again or does this nail the whole issue? G?teborg it is? G?teborg it is! (?) Conference Mon-Wed last week of June? Yes? No? Yes! (?) Because if it is, I propose we get started (I mean, you obviously already _have_ started - I meant the rest of us all) regards bea PS: I get the feeling that Harald will want a whole day to himself next time, so we'd better channel his efforts :) -- Beatrice Fontaine From bea at webwitches.com Mon Oct 4 17:07:28 2004 From: bea at webwitches.com (Beatrice Fontaine) Date: Mon Oct 4 17:03:37 2004 Subject: [EuroPython] EPC 2005: where and when? In-Reply-To: <2mr7oemwr5.fsf@starship.python.net> References: <1096890121.32110.12.camel@ogg.webwitches.com> <2mr7oemwr5.fsf@starship.python.net> Message-ID: <1096902446.32110.86.camel@ogg.webwitches.com> On Mon, 2004-10-04 at 15:35, Michael Hudson wrote: [snip] > Connected to that is the question as to whether > > we continue using Plone - before we even begin working on the site. > > There obviously was disagreement on that too and it would be very useful > > to get that aspect dealt with asap. > > Well, that very much depends on who does the work. I would hope that > now there's a bit more (hurredly acquired...) plone experience around, > working with next year's site would be easier than this year's was. > > I'm also looking for less, not more, involvement on my part... I think everyone shares that feeling, actually. The whole intention behind the choice had obviously been that the content should be, as a matter of course, truly worked on by all those involved, and that turned out to be more complicated than planned for a variety of reasons - one never ceases to learn. However, since the site survived the first onslaught last year, I think that we should either 1) keep what's there and improve on it asap or 2) suggest another solution, making sure that there is actual support for that solution among those who will have to use it or 3) update the existing site while someone is cooking up something better, because the outdated content on the existing site should be got rid of rather sooner than later. What do you all think? cheers bea -- bea@webwitches.com "My agenda is so hidden that I can't find it myself". Me. From lac at strakt.com Mon Oct 4 17:04:29 2004 From: lac at strakt.com (Laura Creighton) Date: Mon Oct 4 17:04:36 2004 Subject: [EuroPython] EPC 2005: where and when? In-Reply-To: Message from Beatrice Fontaine of "Mon, 04 Oct 2004 16:54:06 +0200." <1096901646.32110.60.camel@ogg.webwitches.com> References: <1096890121.32110.12.camel@ogg.webwitches.com> <200410041422.i94EMGtB023457@ratthing-b246.strakt.com> <1096901646.32110.60.camel@ogg.webwitches.com> Message-ID: <200410041504.i94F4TQs023626@ratthing-b246.strakt.com> Well, I thought that last year's conference suffered because 2 years ago at Charleroi, we thought it was to be at Charleroi for a third time, and then that changed, and so we had to scramble a little more than was wise. (Also, on the assumption it wasn't going to be in G?teborg I scheduled a bunch of unchangeable things for that Spring, that wasn't the best.) So I would really like it if people who want to host EP for 2006 would come and get involved in the hosting of EP 2005, just a bit, to see how we do things, because some things are much better shown than explained. Not that this would mean that you couldn't then do things your own way, of course. But knowing 'how not to mess up like the last lot did' is also valuable. :-) I would like it if BEFORE EP2005 we could have some sort of formal bid from each party interested in hosting EP2006. That way we can decide either at EP, or by having a vote before and announce the vote at EP. It really helps if you can begin your 'lets-host-a-conference' effort at the previous conference. Laura From dario at ita.chalmers.se Mon Oct 4 17:34:38 2004 From: dario at ita.chalmers.se (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Dario_Lopez-K=E4sten?=) Date: Mon Oct 4 17:34:37 2004 Subject: [EuroPython] EPC 2005: where and when? In-Reply-To: <1096902446.32110.86.camel@ogg.webwitches.com> References: <1096890121.32110.12.camel@ogg.webwitches.com> <2mr7oemwr5.fsf@starship.python.net> <1096902446.32110.86.camel@ogg.webwitches.com> Message-ID: <41616D8E.6050804@ita.chalmers.se> Beatrice Fontaine wrote re www.europython.org: > > 1) keep what's there and improve on it asap > 2) suggest another solution, making sure that there is actual support > for that solution among those who will have to use it > 3) update the existing site while someone is cooking up something > better, because the outdated content on the existing site should be got > rid of rather sooner than later. > I think we should do 3 for the time being until someone presents a viable alternative to nr 1. However, there are some technical issues that might be needed to sort, out, ie upgrading to a new version of plone and migrating the existing content to the new site. I'd like to keep the new plone installation as clean as possible with only a few extra Products - one such is actually CPSSkins, and I possible can make the Author of CPS Skins help out with the layouting, right Jean-Marc? ;-) The big issue for me is content. Who can write content? /dario -- -- ------------------------------------------------------------------- Dario Lopez-K?sten, IT Systems & Services Chalmers University of Tech. From ja at nuxeo.com Mon Oct 4 17:44:33 2004 From: ja at nuxeo.com (Julien Anguenot) Date: Mon Oct 4 17:44:35 2004 Subject: [EuroPython] EPC 2005: where and when? In-Reply-To: <41616D8E.6050804@ita.chalmers.se> References: <1096890121.32110.12.camel@ogg.webwitches.com> <2mr7oemwr5.fsf@starship.python.net> <1096902446.32110.86.camel@ogg.webwitches.com> <41616D8E.6050804@ita.chalmers.se> Message-ID: <41616FE1.5030507@nuxeo.com> Hi ! > > I'd like to keep the new plone installation as clean as possible with > only a few extra Products - one such is actually CPSSkins, and I > possible can make the Author of CPS Skins help out with the layouting, > right Jean-Marc? ;-) Maybe you will be interested in trying out CPSPortlets / CPSSKins on the Plone instance Dario ? ;) I can hear a 'oui' from Jean-Marc coming from the door just next to you :) J. -- Julien Anguenot | Nuxeo (Paris, France) mail: anguenot at nuxeo.com; tel: +33 (0) 6 72 57 57 66 From ghum at gmx.net Mon Oct 4 17:46:56 2004 From: ghum at gmx.net (Harald Armin Massa) Date: Mon Oct 4 17:46:50 2004 Subject: [EuroPython] EPC 2005: where and when? In-Reply-To: <200410041422.i94EMGtB023457@ratthing-b246.strakt.com> References: <1096890121.32110.12.camel@ogg.webwitches.com> <200410041422.i94EMGtB023457@ratthing-b246.strakt.com> Message-ID: <41617070.8060903@gmx.net> Laura Creighton schrieb: >I've booked SGS Veckobost?der again for the week of June 26th through 3 July. >So if we aren't having it in G?teborg again at that time, somebody >had better tell me so that I can cancel this :-) > m I allowed to cross-post time and space coordinates throughout the python world? Is this list googled somewhere? Harald -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: ghum.vcf Type: text/x-vcard Size: 366 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://mail.python.org/pipermail/europython/attachments/20041004/92a6d7cf/ghum-0001.vcf From ghum at gmx.net Mon Oct 4 17:49:02 2004 From: ghum at gmx.net (Harald Armin Massa) Date: Mon Oct 4 17:48:56 2004 Subject: [EuroPython] EPC 2005: where and when? In-Reply-To: <1096901646.32110.60.camel@ogg.webwitches.com> References: <1096890121.32110.12.camel@ogg.webwitches.com> <200410041422.i94EMGtB023457@ratthing-b246.strakt.com> <1096901646.32110.60.camel@ogg.webwitches.com> Message-ID: <416170EE.1030703@gmx.net> Bea, >PS: I get the feeling that Harald will want a whole day to himself next time, so we'd better channel his efforts :) Hey, I do not go to a conference to be on my own :))) I am strongly committed to give one or to speeches, yes, indeed. Harald -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: ghum.vcf Type: text/x-vcard Size: 366 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://mail.python.org/pipermail/europython/attachments/20041004/f0136ab1/ghum.vcf From rev_anna_r at yahoo.com Mon Oct 4 18:27:31 2004 From: rev_anna_r at yahoo.com (Anna Ravenscroft) Date: Mon Oct 4 18:27:51 2004 Subject: [EuroPython] EPC 2005: where and when? In-Reply-To: <200410041504.i94F4TQs023626@ratthing-b246.strakt.com> References: <1096890121.32110.12.camel@ogg.webwitches.com> <200410041422.i94EMGtB023457@ratthing-b246.strakt.com> <1096901646.32110.60.camel@ogg.webwitches.com> <200410041504.i94F4TQs023626@ratthing-b246.strakt.com> Message-ID: <416179F3.2000005@yahoo.com> Laura Creighton wrote: > Well, I thought that last year's conference suffered because 2 years ago > at Charleroi, we thought it was to be at Charleroi for a third time, > and then that changed, and so we had to scramble a little more than was > wise. (Also, on the assumption it wasn't going to be in G?teborg I > scheduled a bunch of unchangeable things for that Spring, that wasn't > the best.) > > So I would really like it if people who want to host EP for 2006 would > come and get involved in the hosting of EP 2005, just a bit, to see > how we do things, because some things are much better shown than > explained. Not that this would mean that you couldn't then do things > your own way, of course. But knowing 'how not to mess up like the last > lot did' is also valuable. :-) > > I would like it if BEFORE EP2005 we could have some sort of formal bid > from each party interested in hosting EP2006. That way we can decide > either at EP, or by having a vote before and announce the vote at EP. > It really helps if you can begin your 'lets-host-a-conference' effort > at the previous conference. I recommend we announce to c.l.py-announce that, as planned, Europython2005 will be in Gothenburg and that anyone interested in holding the EP2006 is urged to get involved now. We may also want to provide for "hosting parties" on Friday night, or a group sponsoring something - a luncheon, dinner, hospitality suite (with the GothEP group being pre-notified), so that folks can get to see what the bidding groups are up to. They can provide info on their proposals,etc. We can have a vote on Saturday, results to be announced at closing ceremonies on Sunday. (or opening on Sunday...) Just some ideas. Anna From lac at strakt.com Mon Oct 4 18:38:40 2004 From: lac at strakt.com (Laura Creighton) Date: Mon Oct 4 18:38:45 2004 Subject: [EuroPython] EPC 2005: where and when? In-Reply-To: Message from =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Dario_Lopez-K=E4sten?= of "Mon, 04 Oct 2004 17:34:38 +0200." <41616D8E.6050804@ita.chalmers.se> References: <1096890121.32110.12.camel@ogg.webwitches.com> <2mr7oemwr5.fsf@starship.python.net> <1096902446.32110.86.camel@ogg.webwitches.com> <41616D8E.6050804@ita.chalmers.se> Message-ID: <200410041638.i94Gce8O023910@ratthing-b246.strakt.com> Samuele Pedroni has actually written an improved system over the summer. But I am not ready to show it to anybody yet. In the meantime, the old site is stale, and I am too busy now to do anything about that, either. rushed, Laura From lac at strakt.com Mon Oct 4 18:40:55 2004 From: lac at strakt.com (Laura Creighton) Date: Mon Oct 4 18:41:27 2004 Subject: [EuroPython] EPC 2005: where and when? In-Reply-To: Message from Harald Armin Massa of "Mon, 04 Oct 2004 17:46:56 +0200." <41617070.8060903@gmx.net> References: <1096890121.32110.12.camel@ogg.webwitches.com> <200410041422.i94EMGtB023457@ratthing-b246.strakt.com> <41617070.8060903@gmx.net> Message-ID: <200410041640.i94GetGC023975@ratthing-b246.strakt.com> In a message of Mon, 04 Oct 2004 17:46:56 +0200, Harald Armin Massa writes: >This is a multi-part message in MIME format. >--------------040507090107010709040706 >Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed >Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > >Laura Creighton schrieb: > >>I've booked SGS Veckobost?der again for the week of June 26th through 3 J >uly. >>So if we aren't having it in G?teborg again at that time, somebody >>had better tell me so that I can cancel this :-) >> >m I allowed to cross-post time and space coordinates throughout the >python world? Is this list googled somewhere? > >Harald Yes, and Yes as far as I know. Laura From bea at webwitches.com Mon Oct 4 19:04:30 2004 From: bea at webwitches.com (Beatrice Fontaine) Date: Mon Oct 4 19:00:39 2004 Subject: [EuroPython] EPC 2005: where and when? In-Reply-To: <200410041638.i94Gce8O023910@ratthing-b246.strakt.com> References: <1096890121.32110.12.camel@ogg.webwitches.com> <2mr7oemwr5.fsf@starship.python.net> <1096902446.32110.86.camel@ogg.webwitches.com> <41616D8E.6050804@ita.chalmers.se> <200410041638.i94Gce8O023910@ratthing-b246.strakt.com> Message-ID: <1096909469.835.15.camel@ogg.webwitches.com> On Mon, 2004-10-04 at 18:38, Laura Creighton wrote: > Samuele Pedroni has actually written an improved system over the summer. > But I am not ready to show it to anybody yet. In the meantime, the > old site is stale, and I am too busy now to do anything about that, > either. > > rushed, > Laura Great! That means that we know where we stand on that, for the moment. Is it safe to assume that we can announce the date and place on the main page of the existing site? Because that will serve as a placeholder at least, and it will allow people to make a note in the calendar. Regards bea -- bea@webwitches.com "My agenda is so hidden that I can't find it myself". Me. From tom at aragne.com Mon Oct 4 19:07:37 2004 From: tom at aragne.com (tom) Date: Mon Oct 4 19:07:30 2004 Subject: [EuroPython] EPC 2005: where and when? References: <1096890121.32110.12.camel@ogg.webwitches.com><2mr7oemwr5.fsf@starship.python.net> <1096902446.32110.86.camel@ogg.webwitches.com> Message-ID: <030a01c4aa34$a6a8d400$807ba8c0@simkin> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Beatrice Fontaine" To: "Michael Hudson" Cc: Sent: Monday, October 04, 2004 5:07 PM Subject: [Tom] Re: [EuroPython] EPC 2005: where and when? > On Mon, 2004-10-04 at 15:35, Michael Hudson wrote: > > [snip] > > > Connected to that is the question as to whether > > > we continue using Plone - before we even begin working on the site. > > > There obviously was disagreement on that too and it would be very useful > > > to get that aspect dealt with asap. > > > > Well, that very much depends on who does the work. I would hope that > > now there's a bit more (hurredly acquired...) plone experience around, > > working with next year's site would be easier than this year's was. > > > > I'm also looking for less, not more, involvement on my part... > > I think everyone shares that feeling, actually. The whole intention > behind the choice had obviously been that the content should be, as a > matter of course, truly worked on by all those involved, and that turned > out to be more complicated than planned for a variety of reasons - one > never ceases to learn. However, since the site survived the first > onslaught last year, I think that we should > > either > > 1) keep what's there and improve on it asap > > or > > 2) suggest another solution, making sure that there is actual support > for that solution among those who will have to use it > > or > > 3) update the existing site while someone is cooking up something > better, because the outdated content on the existing site should be got > rid of rather sooner than later. > > What do you all think? Mmm,... well... it all in fact depends on the people who want to work on it... it is there decision. If somebody is going to help and is going to put a lot of effort in it, then he/she can decide what kind of website to use. If there is no extra help, then I think EP should stick with the one there is. Also, another point: it is not a good idea to change every year from website technologie... so I would suggest, if somebody wants to change, then this has to be discussed very carefully and analysed to see if the solution will fit for several years. Another possibility is also: Go with the existing one, while another team develops the website for the comming years... Tom From jmo at ita.chalmers.se Mon Oct 4 19:21:13 2004 From: jmo at ita.chalmers.se (Jean-Marc Orliaguet) Date: Mon Oct 4 19:22:28 2004 Subject: [EuroPython] EPC 2005: where and when? In-Reply-To: <41616FE1.5030507@nuxeo.com> References: <1096890121.32110.12.camel@ogg.webwitches.com> <2mr7oemwr5.fsf@starship.python.net> <1096902446.32110.86.camel@ogg.webwitches.com> <41616D8E.6050804@ita.chalmers.se> <41616FE1.5030507@nuxeo.com> Message-ID: <41618689.8040600@ita.chalmers.se> Julien Anguenot wrote: > Hi ! > >> >> I'd like to keep the new plone installation as clean as possible with >> only a few extra Products - one such is actually CPSSkins, and I >> possible can make the Author of CPS Skins help out with the >> layouting, right Jean-Marc? ;-) > > > Maybe you will be interested in trying out CPSPortlets / CPSSKins on > the Plone instance Dario ? ;) > > I can hear a 'oui' from Jean-Marc coming from the door just next to > you :) > > J. :-) yes The upcoming releases of CPSSkins / CPSPortlets are designed with performance and fine-grained caching as number one priority. So that would definitely be worth trying at least to see the boost in performances when lots of users are logged in simultaneously -- which the current www.europython.org did not handle too well at peak hours. /JM From lac at strakt.com Mon Oct 4 20:28:21 2004 From: lac at strakt.com (Laura Creighton) Date: Mon Oct 4 20:28:33 2004 Subject: [EuroPython] EPC 2005: where and when? In-Reply-To: Message from Beatrice Fontaine of "Mon, 04 Oct 2004 19:04:30 +0200." <1096909469.835.15.camel@ogg.webwitches.com> References: <1096890121.32110.12.camel@ogg.webwitches.com> <2mr7oemwr5.fsf@starship.python.net> <1096902446.32110.86.camel@ogg.webwitches.com> <41616D8E.6050804@ita.chalmers.se> <200410041638.i94Gce8O023910@ratthing-b246.strakt.com> <1096909469.835.15.camel@ogg.webwitches.com> Message-ID: <200410041828.i94ISLXS024231@ratthing-b246.strakt.com> In a message of Mon, 04 Oct 2004 19:04:30 +0200, Beatrice Fontaine writes: >On Mon, 2004-10-04 at 18:38, Laura Creighton wrote: >> Samuele Pedroni has actually written an improved system over the summer >. >> But I am not ready to show it to anybody yet. In the meantime, the >> old site is stale, and I am too busy now to do anything about that, >> either. >> >> rushed, >> Laura > >Great! That means that we know where we stand on that, for the moment. >Is it safe to assume that we can announce the date and place on the main >page of the existing site? Because that will serve as a placeholder at >least, and it will allow people to make a note in the calendar. > >Regards > >bea Absolutely! Laura From jacob at strakt.com Mon Oct 4 21:02:27 2004 From: jacob at strakt.com (Jacob =?iso-8859-1?q?Hall=E9n?=) Date: Mon Oct 4 21:02:32 2004 Subject: [EuroPython] next year's europython conference In-Reply-To: <41610806.6010903@bredband.net> References: <41610806.6010903@bredband.net> Message-ID: <200410042102.27854.jacob@strakt.com> On m?ndag 4 oktober 2004 10.21, Emily Bache wrote: > Hi, > > I was just wondering if you could give me the dates of the next > europython conference? Will it be in G?teborg again? I basically want to > know if it clashes with XP2005 which will be June 18th - 23rd. I looked > on the website (europython.org) but it says nothing about the 2005 > python conference. Well, to make sure that we keep an open process, I suggest we convene for a very brief IRC meeting to formally decide the time and place for EPC 2005. I suggest we do it Thursday 7 October at 18.30 CET. I propose that we hold the 2005 conference at Chalmers in G?teborg, Sweden in the week of 26 June - 1 July. I somebody else wanst to suggest an alternative place and/or time, please do so to this list before the meeting. Jacob Hall?n From dario at ita.chalmers.se Tue Oct 5 07:41:34 2004 From: dario at ita.chalmers.se (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Dario_Lopez-K=E4sten?=) Date: Tue Oct 5 07:41:36 2004 Subject: [EuroPython] EPC 2005: where and when? In-Reply-To: <1096909469.835.15.camel@ogg.webwitches.com> References: <1096890121.32110.12.camel@ogg.webwitches.com> <2mr7oemwr5.fsf@starship.python.net> <1096902446.32110.86.camel@ogg.webwitches.com> <41616D8E.6050804@ita.chalmers.se> <200410041638.i94Gce8O023910@ratthing-b246.strakt.com> <1096909469.835.15.camel@ogg.webwitches.com> Message-ID: <4162340E.3050300@ita.chalmers.se> Beatrice Fontaine wrote: > On Mon, 2004-10-04 at 18:38, Laura Creighton wrote: > >>Samuele Pedroni has actually written an improved system over the summer. >>But I am not ready to show it to anybody yet. In the meantime, the >>old site is stale, and I am too busy now to do anything about that, >>either. >> >>rushed, >>Laura > > > Great! That means that we know where we stand on that, for the moment. > Is it safe to assume that we can announce the date and place on the main > page of the existing site? Because that will serve as a placeholder at > least, and it will allow people to make a note in the calendar. > > Regards > > bea > > Ok - just to be clear: we will not be continuing on using Zope/Plone for www.europython.org? This is just to be sure that I can inform people I was involving that it is not an issue anymore. /dario -- -- ------------------------------------------------------------------- Dario Lopez-K?sten, IT Systems & Services Chalmers University of Tech. From dario at ita.chalmers.se Tue Oct 5 07:45:33 2004 From: dario at ita.chalmers.se (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Dario_Lopez-K=E4sten?=) Date: Tue Oct 5 07:45:33 2004 Subject: [EuroPython] next year's europython conference In-Reply-To: <200410042102.27854.jacob@strakt.com> References: <41610806.6010903@bredband.net> <200410042102.27854.jacob@strakt.com> Message-ID: <416234FD.50908@ita.chalmers.se> Jacob Hall?n wrote: > On m?ndag 4 oktober 2004 10.21, Emily Bache wrote: > >>Hi, >> >>I was just wondering if you could give me the dates of the next >>europython conference? Will it be in G?teborg again? I basically want to >>know if it clashes with XP2005 which will be June 18th - 23rd. I looked >>on the website (europython.org) but it says nothing about the 2005 >>python conference. > > > Well, to make sure that we keep an open process, I suggest we convene for a > very brief IRC meeting to formally decide the time and place for EPC 2005. > > I suggest we do it Thursday 7 October at 18.30 CET. > > I propose that we hold the 2005 conference at Chalmers in G?teborg, Sweden in > the week of 26 June - 1 July. I somebody else wanst to suggest an alternative > place and/or time, please do so to this list before the meeting. > > Jacob Hall?n Hi, just a note to inform that I won't be able to attend. We moved two weeks ago and I am still waiting for my Broadband connection to be installed, so I don't have internet connectivity at that hour. /dario -- -- ------------------------------------------------------------------- Dario Lopez-K?sten, IT Systems & Services Chalmers University of Tech. From lac at strakt.com Tue Oct 5 08:04:57 2004 From: lac at strakt.com (Laura Creighton) Date: Tue Oct 5 08:05:07 2004 Subject: [EuroPython] EPC 2005: where and when? In-Reply-To: Message from =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Dario_Lopez-K=E4sten?= of "Tue, 05 Oct 2004 07:41:34 +0200." <4162340E.3050300@ita.chalmers.se> References: <1096890121.32110.12.camel@ogg.webwitches.com> <2mr7oemwr5.fsf@starship.python.net> <1096902446.32110.86.camel@ogg.webwitches.com> <41616D8E.6050804@ita.chalmers.se> <200410041638.i94Gce8O023910@ratthing-b246.strakt.com> <1096909469.835.15.camel@ogg.webwitches.com> <4162340E.3050300@ita.chalmers.se> Message-ID: <200410050604.i9564vl5025539@ratthing-b246.strakt.com> In a message of Tue, 05 Oct 2004 07:41:34 +0200, Dario Lopez-K?sten writes: >Beatrice Fontaine wrote: >> On Mon, 2004-10-04 at 18:38, Laura Creighton wrote: >> >>>Samuele Pedroni has actually written an improved system over the summer >. >>>But I am not ready to show it to anybody yet. In the meantime, the >>>old site is stale, and I am too busy now to do anything about that, >>>either. >>> >>>rushed, >>>Laura >> >> >> Great! That means that we know where we stand on that, for the moment. >> Is it safe to assume that we can announce the date and place on the mai >n >> page of the existing site? Because that will serve as a placeholder at >> least, and it will allow people to make a note in the calendar. >> >> Regards >> >> bea >> >> > >Ok - just to be clear: we will not be continuing on using Zope/Plone for >www.europython.org? This is just to be sure that I can inform people I >was involving that it is not an issue anymore. > >/dario I want other people to see it first. Perhaps they will hate it. I don't want to do this by fiat. But I think that everybody who worked on the conference last year is aware of how thoroughly unhappy and frustrated I was with Plone, and the Plonish way of doing things, which is why I want to provide an alternative. Laura From lac at strakt.com Tue Oct 5 08:11:10 2004 From: lac at strakt.com (Laura Creighton) Date: Tue Oct 5 08:11:15 2004 Subject: [EuroPython] next year's europython conference In-Reply-To: Message from =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Dario_Lopez-K=E4sten?= of "Tue, 05 Oct 2004 07:45:33 +0200." <416234FD.50908@ita.chalmers.se> References: <41610806.6010903@bredband.net> <200410042102.27854.jacob@strakt.com> <416234FD.50908@ita.chalmers.se> Message-ID: <200410050611.i956BAuq025575@ratthing-b246.strakt.com> In a message of Tue, 05 Oct 2004 07:45:33 +0200, Dario Lopez-K?sten writes: >Jacob Hall?n wrote: >> On m?ndag 4 oktober 2004 10.21, Emily Bache wrote: >> >Hi, just a note to inform that I won't be able to attend. We moved two >weeks ago and I am still waiting for my Broadband connection to be >installed, so I don't have internet connectivity at that hour. > >/dario > >-- >-- ------------------------------------------------------------------- >Dario Lopez-K?sten, IT Systems & Services Chalmers University of Tech. >_______________________________________________ >EuroPython mailing list >EuroPython@python.org >http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/europython Is there a better time? Laura From dario at ita.chalmers.se Tue Oct 5 08:13:56 2004 From: dario at ita.chalmers.se (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Dario_Lopez-K=E4sten?=) Date: Tue Oct 5 08:13:55 2004 Subject: [EuroPython] EPC 2005: where and when? In-Reply-To: <200410050604.i9564vl5025539@ratthing-b246.strakt.com> References: <1096890121.32110.12.camel@ogg.webwitches.com> <2mr7oemwr5.fsf@starship.python.net> <1096902446.32110.86.camel@ogg.webwitches.com> <41616D8E.6050804@ita.chalmers.se> <200410041638.i94Gce8O023910@ratthing-b246.strakt.com> <1096909469.835.15.camel@ogg.webwitches.com> <4162340E.3050300@ita.chalmers.se> <200410050604.i9564vl5025539@ratthing-b246.strakt.com> Message-ID: <41623BA4.7030109@ita.chalmers.se> Laura Creighton wrote: > > I want other people to see it first. Perhaps they will hate it. I don't > want to do this by fiat. But I think that everybody who worked on the conference > last year is aware of how thoroughly unhappy and frustrated I was with Plone, > and the Plonish way of doing things, which is why I want to provide an alternative. sure, though I think the problem with that stance is that many others were not unhappy. The main problem last year was that the content was provided way way too late, and that feedback (the negative one) was given at about the same time, which meant that most people did not have the time to properly learn a new tool nor where the creators of the site given neither proper feedback nor time to fix things. Just a note: do not wait too long to present the new site. It will take time to adjust to it and learn the tools, and if we *really* want to this years mistakes, we should fix the process and the delays in getting ready to actually do something, because there never were any big problmes with the tools, as far as I am concerned. So, to sum it up: present the new site ASAP, it even needn't be 100% finished and give people time to get accustomed to it. Then immedialty start working on content and the process of getting content. /dario -- -- ------------------------------------------------------------------- Dario Lopez-K?sten, IT Systems & Services Chalmers University of Tech. From dario at ita.chalmers.se Tue Oct 5 08:17:43 2004 From: dario at ita.chalmers.se (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Dario_Lopez-K=E4sten?=) Date: Tue Oct 5 08:17:43 2004 Subject: [EuroPython] next year's europython conference In-Reply-To: <200410050611.i956BAuq025575@ratthing-b246.strakt.com> References: <41610806.6010903@bredband.net> <200410042102.27854.jacob@strakt.com> <416234FD.50908@ita.chalmers.se> <200410050611.i956BAuq025575@ratthing-b246.strakt.com> Message-ID: <41623C87.7070105@ita.chalmers.se> Laura Creighton wrote: >> >>Hi, just a note to inform that I won't be able to attend. We moved two >>weeks ago and I am still waiting for my Broadband connection to be >>installed, so I don't have internet connectivity at that hour. >> > Is there a better time? > I am not sure; on thursday I can during the afternoon before say 17.30 CET, but that means it will be in the middle of the working day (at least for most of us europeans), so I am not sure if people can take an hour or so off from work... I don't think it is imperative that I join this initial discussion, though and I don't wish to cause any trouble in people's schedules. /dario -- -- ------------------------------------------------------------------- Dario Lopez-K?sten, IT Systems & Services Chalmers University of Tech. From dario at ita.chalmers.se Tue Oct 5 08:19:31 2004 From: dario at ita.chalmers.se (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Dario_Lopez-K=E4sten?=) Date: Tue Oct 5 08:19:30 2004 Subject: [EuroPython] EPC 2005: where and when? In-Reply-To: <41623BA4.7030109@ita.chalmers.se> References: <1096890121.32110.12.camel@ogg.webwitches.com> <2mr7oemwr5.fsf@starship.python.net> <1096902446.32110.86.camel@ogg.webwitches.com> <41616D8E.6050804@ita.chalmers.se> <200410041638.i94Gce8O023910@ratthing-b246.strakt.com> <1096909469.835.15.camel@ogg.webwitches.com> <4162340E.3050300@ita.chalmers.se> <200410050604.i9564vl5025539@ratthing-b246.strakt.com> <41623BA4.7030109@ita.chalmers.se> Message-ID: <41623CF3.5030109@ita.chalmers.se> Dario Lopez-K?sten wrote: eek - for got a crucial word: > Just a note: do not wait too long to present the new site. It will take > time to adjust to it and learn the tools, and if we *really* want to avoid > this years mistakes.... /dario -- -- ------------------------------------------------------------------- Dario Lopez-K?sten, IT Systems & Services Chalmers University of Tech. From bea at webwitches.com Tue Oct 5 08:49:18 2004 From: bea at webwitches.com (Beatrice Fontaine) Date: Tue Oct 5 08:45:23 2004 Subject: [EuroPython] next year's europython conference In-Reply-To: <200410042102.27854.jacob@strakt.com> References: <41610806.6010903@bredband.net> <200410042102.27854.jacob@strakt.com> Message-ID: <1096958958.835.34.camel@ogg.webwitches.com> On Mon, 2004-10-04 at 21:02, Jacob Hall?n wrote: > > I suggest we do it Thursday 7 October at 18.30 CET. Fine for me. 17.30 would be even better (seems to fit Dario). Later is ok too. > I propose that we hold the 2005 conference at Chalmers in G?teborg, Sweden in > the week of 26 June - 1 July. I somebody else wanst to suggest an alternative > place and/or time, please do so to this list before the meeting. You have my vote :) Talk to you on Thursday then bea -- bea@webwitches.com "My agenda is so hidden that I can't find it myself". Me. From bea at webwitches.com Tue Oct 5 08:50:35 2004 From: bea at webwitches.com (Beatrice Fontaine) Date: Tue Oct 5 08:46:40 2004 Subject: [EuroPython] EPC 2005: where and when? In-Reply-To: <200410050604.i9564vl5025539@ratthing-b246.strakt.com> References: <1096890121.32110.12.camel@ogg.webwitches.com> <2mr7oemwr5.fsf@starship.python.net> <1096902446.32110.86.camel@ogg.webwitches.com> <41616D8E.6050804@ita.chalmers.se> <200410041638.i94Gce8O023910@ratthing-b246.strakt.com> <1096909469.835.15.camel@ogg.webwitches.com> <4162340E.3050300@ita.chalmers.se> <200410050604.i9564vl5025539@ratthing-b246.strakt.com> Message-ID: <1096959035.835.37.camel@ogg.webwitches.com> On Tue, 2004-10-05 at 08:04, Laura Creighton wrote: [snip] > I want other people to see it first. Perhaps they will hate it. I don't > want to do this by fiat. But I think that everybody who worked on the conference > last year is aware of how thoroughly unhappy and frustrated I was with Plone, > and the Plonish way of doing things, which is why I want to provide an alternative. That is a very constructive proposal! Thanks. regards bea -- bea@webwitches.com "My agenda is so hidden that I can't find it myself". Me. From rev_anna_r at yahoo.com Tue Oct 5 08:57:41 2004 From: rev_anna_r at yahoo.com (Anna Ravenscroft) Date: Tue Oct 5 08:57:56 2004 Subject: [EuroPython] next year's europython conference In-Reply-To: <41623C87.7070105@ita.chalmers.se> References: <41610806.6010903@bredband.net> <200410042102.27854.jacob@strakt.com> <416234FD.50908@ita.chalmers.se> <200410050611.i956BAuq025575@ratthing-b246.strakt.com> <41623C87.7070105@ita.chalmers.se> Message-ID: <416245E5.3030303@yahoo.com> Dario Lopez-K?sten wrote: > Laura Creighton wrote: > >>> >>> Hi, just a note to inform that I won't be able to attend. We moved >>> two weeks ago and I am still waiting for my Broadband connection to >>> be installed, so I don't have internet connectivity at that hour. >>> >> Is there a better time? > > > I am not sure; on thursday I can during the afternoon before say 17.30 > CET, but that means it will be in the middle of the working day (at > least for most of us europeans), so I am not sure if people can take an > hour or so off from work... I dunno - 17:30 works better for me too... > > I don't think it is imperative that I join this initial discussion, > though and I don't wish to cause any trouble in people's schedules. Same here... Anna From bea at webwitches.com Tue Oct 5 09:04:06 2004 From: bea at webwitches.com (Beatrice Fontaine) Date: Tue Oct 5 09:00:12 2004 Subject: [EuroPython] EPC 2005: where and when? In-Reply-To: <41623BA4.7030109@ita.chalmers.se> References: <1096890121.32110.12.camel@ogg.webwitches.com> <2mr7oemwr5.fsf@starship.python.net> <1096902446.32110.86.camel@ogg.webwitches.com> <41616D8E.6050804@ita.chalmers.se> <200410041638.i94Gce8O023910@ratthing-b246.strakt.com> <1096909469.835.15.camel@ogg.webwitches.com> <4162340E.3050300@ita.chalmers.se> <200410050604.i9564vl5025539@ratthing-b246.strakt.com> <41623BA4.7030109@ita.chalmers.se> Message-ID: <1096959846.835.50.camel@ogg.webwitches.com> On Tue, 2004-10-05 at 08:13, Dario Lopez-K?sten wrote: [snip] > > sure, though I think the problem with that stance is that many others > were not unhappy. The main problem last year was that the content was > provided way way too late, and that feedback (the negative one) was > given at about the same time, which meant that most people did not have > the time to properly learn a new tool nor where the creators of the site > given neither proper feedback nor time to fix things. Yah, well, as I said: we never cease to learn. People having got to know each other (better) at last year's event will be of great help in this respect. Less emotional overhead ;) > Just a note: do not wait too long to present the new site. It will take > time to adjust to it and learn the tools, and if we *really* want to > this years mistakes, we should fix the process and the delays in getting > ready to actually do something, because there never were any big > problmes with the tools, as far as I am concerned. Well, the obvious advantage is that, if the tool is in the firm hands of the main organisers, there is less to worry about in terms of content provision because they are the ones with their hands on the tool, they know where to put content and how to put it there, so there won't be any delays because of the technical platform that was chosen. Therefore, if they made a tool that they are happy to use, it would have to have extremely obvious snags for me to protest. Just don't make it pink :) However, I do agree that the platform discussions, from my point of view, were of a more... ideological nature than anything else. But since that happens everywhere and all the time, it is most probably a total waste of time to go into it again. IMHO. > So, to sum it up: present the new site ASAP, it even needn't be 100% > finished and give people time to get accustomed to it. Then immedialty > start working on content and the process of getting content. Yep. Let's talk more when the welcome alternative is there. Cheers bea -- bea@webwitches.com "My agenda is so hidden that I can't find it myself". Me. From Nicolas.Chauvat at logilab.fr Tue Oct 5 12:09:41 2004 From: Nicolas.Chauvat at logilab.fr (Nicolas Chauvat) Date: Tue Oct 5 12:09:44 2004 Subject: [EuroPython] next year's europython conference In-Reply-To: <1096958958.835.34.camel@ogg.webwitches.com> References: <41610806.6010903@bredband.net> <200410042102.27854.jacob@strakt.com> <1096958958.835.34.camel@ogg.webwitches.com> Message-ID: <20041005100941.GA815@logilab.fr> On Tue, Oct 05, 2004 at 08:49:18AM +0200, Beatrice Fontaine wrote: > > I suggest we do it Thursday 7 October at 18.30 CET. > > Fine for me. 17.30 would be even better (seems to fit Dario). Later is > ok too. I probably will not be able to attend, but as soon as the conference date is decided, I'll look for talks to fill the science track. -- Nicolas Chauvat logilab.fr - services en informatique avanc?e et gestion de connaissances From mwh at python.net Tue Oct 5 12:36:27 2004 From: mwh at python.net (Michael Hudson) Date: Tue Oct 5 12:36:29 2004 Subject: [EuroPython] next year's europython conference In-Reply-To: <1096958958.835.34.camel@ogg.webwitches.com> (Beatrice Fontaine's message of "Tue, 05 Oct 2004 08:49:18 +0200") References: <41610806.6010903@bredband.net> <200410042102.27854.jacob@strakt.com> <1096958958.835.34.camel@ogg.webwitches.com> Message-ID: <2m7jq5ladw.fsf@starship.python.net> Beatrice Fontaine writes: > On Mon, 2004-10-04 at 21:02, Jacob Hall?n wrote: > >> >> I suggest we do it Thursday 7 October at 18.30 CET. > > Fine for me. 17.30 would be even better (seems to fit Dario). Later is > ok too. 17:30 (16:30 here) is also wbetter for me, though I can't promise attendance even then (life is being unpredictable at the moment). Cheers, mwh -- you're a towel a towel of IMMENSE POWER, yes. -- from Twisted.Quotes From dario at ita.chalmers.se Tue Oct 5 13:15:53 2004 From: dario at ita.chalmers.se (=?ISO-8859-15?Q?Dario_Lopez-K=E4sten?=) Date: Tue Oct 5 13:15:53 2004 Subject: [EuroPython] next year's europython conference In-Reply-To: <1096958958.835.34.camel@ogg.webwitches.com> References: <41610806.6010903@bredband.net> <200410042102.27854.jacob@strakt.com> <1096958958.835.34.camel@ogg.webwitches.com> Message-ID: <41628269.7050006@ita.chalmers.se> Beatrice Fontaine wrote: > On Mon, 2004-10-04 at 21:02, Jacob Hall?n wrote: > > >>I suggest we do it Thursday 7 October at 18.30 CET. > > > Fine for me. 17.30 would be even better (seems to fit Dario). Later is > ok too. > well, actually, i'd have to be leaving at the very latest at 17.30. It takes anything between 30 minutes to 90 minutes for me to come home. (that is what happens when you've moved to places where the buses go every 30 minutes and you have to make 3 or more bus changes before you get there... miss one bus and you're immediately 45 minutes late...) /dario - I need to buy a "moped" rsn... -- -- ------------------------------------------------------------------- Dario Lopez-K?sten, IT Systems & Services Chalmers University of Tech. From jacob at strakt.com Tue Oct 5 21:27:00 2004 From: jacob at strakt.com (Jacob =?iso-8859-1?q?Hall=E9n?=) Date: Tue Oct 5 21:27:03 2004 Subject: [EuroPython] Meeting at 17.00 instead of 18.30 plus a report In-Reply-To: <200410042102.27854.jacob@strakt.com> References: <41610806.6010903@bredband.net> <200410042102.27854.jacob@strakt.com> Message-ID: <200410052127.00837.jacob@strakt.com> On m?ndag 4 oktober 2004 21.02, Jacob Hall?n wrote: > On m?ndag 4 oktober 2004 10.21, Emily Bache wrote: > > Hi, > > > > I was just wondering if you could give me the dates of the next > > europython conference? Will it be in G?teborg again? I basically want to > > know if it clashes with XP2005 which will be June 18th - 23rd. I looked > > on the website (europython.org) but it says nothing about the 2005 > > python conference. > > Well, to make sure that we keep an open process, I suggest we convene for a > very brief IRC meeting to formally decide the time and place for EPC 2005. > > I suggest we do it Thursday 7 October at 18.30 CET. > > I propose that we hold the 2005 conference at Chalmers in G?teborg, Sweden > in the week of 26 June - 1 July. I somebody else wanst to suggest an > alternative place and/or time, please do so to this list before the > meeting. Since the incoming responses indicate that 17.00 is a much better time, the meeting will be held then. There are some things I'd like to report on: 1. Finances Our only outstanding invoice is the one for the conference space. It is due on 15 October. After it has been paid, we will have about SEK 70 000 in the coffers. The reason for this surplus is a) that our keynote speakers came in about SEK 25 000 under budget. Neither of them charged us for their airfare. b) On-site paying attendees outstripped budget by a wide margin. This was at least SEK 20 000 over budget. c) We exceeded the number of budgeted pre-registrations by some. This is approximately SEK 10 000 over budget. d) We spent less than expected on printed materials. This was some SEK 5 000 under budget. e) Some 30 registered people did not show up at the conference dinner. We had to pay for their food, but not their wine, which saved about SEK 3 000. f) We never spent any of our reserves, budgeted to SEK 10 000. g) We made a small profit on some 0-budget activities - T-shirts and accomodation. h) Bank charges for incoming swift payments were much under budget. This gave us about SEK 1 000 more in revenues than expected. h) The only thing over budget was the conference space. We were charged VAT on top of the quoted prices, which was not in the budget. This made the conference space about SEK 12 000 more expensive than budgeted. There are still a few things up in the air on the income side (people owe us money but it is uncertain if we can get them to pay), but it is not about any huge sums. 2. Things I think need fixing and ideas for improvements, in random order: - Video projector hell. We need reliable setups, so that presentations don't fail. Problems with the presentations hurt the core value of the conference, and this is the top thing that must be fixed. . - More core organisers active in the reception. Reception required much more fore-knowledge than I expected, which tied me and Laura to it to such an extent that we couldn't relly enjoy the conference much at all. This needs to change. - Improved handling of registration/tracks/talks/schedule After beating the registration system into submission with a long, big stick, it worked, but still provided very few facilities for searching and generating reports. It was also really painfully slow, even though we only had 300 registrants. I had to spend an inordinate amount of time working out who was registered for what, recoding how much people had paid and a bunch of other things. - Breakfast A request from many people on the feedback form. We should look into the cost of this. - Wired internet connectivity Some people lack wireless equipment, and coverage was not all that great in some spots. It would aslo be nice if we could set up sume extra hotspots so that we get coverage in the rooms. - Letting people mark interest in different talks. This would allow us to adjust room allocation to the size of the expected crowd. - Having one more large auditorium We can probably expect Europython to grow next year as well. We were slightly undersized with 2 small and 2 large rooms this year. - Keeping tab of decisions and tasks in an issue tracker The tools we had did not provide an easy overview. - Better support for handling accomodation, and greater reservation flexibility. Our reduced model, which was all we had time to code for, generated an enormous amount of extra work for Laura. We need to do this better next year. 3. Other things By having the conference after Midsummer, we can save about half of the cost of the conference space, as we get much better rebates then. The Student Union restaurant is normally closed at that time, but they told me they'd be happy to keep open just for us. (They were very happy with the turnout for the pub night, btw). Another limiting factor is the availability of SGS Veckobost?der, where we have a preliminary reservation in the week after Midsummer. 4. CAPSconference Due to frustration with the Plone based system for registration/track handling, I decided to build a conference application on Strakts' CAPS platform (CAPSconference). It handles registration, track and talks management (including papers, slides etc) and it has a built in advanced issue tracker. It does not as yet manage a whole conference website and it does not perform CMS functionality through the web, though it could be made to do that with a moderate effort. The greatest advantage I see with CAPSconference is that it contains functionality for performing just about any sort of search on the data contained in the system; both structured searches and free text ones. It also provides a reporting facility, where any user can construct general reports. Another major advantage is that it integrates both with web and email, forming a comprehensive communications system. The major drawback is that the really powerful functionality is not available through the web, but only through a GUI client that you need to install in your machine. Cheers Jacob Hall?n From magnus at thinkware.se Wed Oct 6 18:56:18 2004 From: magnus at thinkware.se (Magnus Lycka) Date: Wed Oct 6 18:56:24 2004 Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?B?UmU6IFtFdXJvUHl0aG9uXSBFUEMgMjAwNTogd2hlcmUgYW5kIHdoZW4/?= Message-ID: > Laura Creighton wrote: > > But I think that everybody who worked on the conference > > last year is aware of how thoroughly unhappy and frustrated I was with Plone, > > and the Plonish way of doing things, which is why I want to provide an alternative. Dario replied: > sure, though I think the problem with that stance is that many others > were not unhappy. I am so far unimpressed by Plone. I think I just realized why, and also why there is this big gap in opinons about it. It seems to me that Plone is designed to make web site designers and administrators happy, and it seems that this happens at the expense of the visitors of the web site. Most Plone sites I see look reasonably good (although rather similar after a while) but provide poor navigation, often expose flaws (like links or searches leading to pages that doesn't seem to be intended for site visitors) and expose things on the pages that are irrelevant to normal site visitors and thus increase the cognitive load without adding value. I think it's important that things that are irrelevant to normal site visitors are not shown to normal site visitors. Is that possible with Plone? (I.e. hide the log in and join links for normal users, make sure that .) I also got the feeling that he site designers tried to use features of Plone that weren't at all ideal (or even intended) for the use it got. The main example was to use the login and editing features that are intended for Plone content providers for registration of conference attendees and speakers. To me it's really surprising (and poor design) to mix web site data with conference business data, but the foremost problem was that registration was a lot more confusing than it ought to be. Plone developement reminds me of application development in MS Excel, and that is not in Plones favour... It seems to me that the EPC 2004 web site developers were too focused on using Plone features, and too little focused on building a web site that was easy for a visitor to use, or perhaps they were a little near sighted, and saw things too much with plony eyes... I think the site felt complicated and difficult to navigate. It's really a small site, and only a few pages are needed. I'm not sure the 2004 site provided useful new functionality compared to the 2003 site, but it felt more confusing. I suspect that it would be best to use one tool to design the actual www.europython.org web site (maybe Plone if all that noise can be turned off), and a different tool (something like Quixote and some kind of SQL database perhaps) to build the web application for regstration of visitors and speakers etc. The web site obviously needs to be able to show the information entered by the speakers, but showing normal database content on a web site isn't exactly rocket science. (I'm just starting to write such services right now for a state agency, but unfortunately I have to stick with C++ :( ) Plone might be a great site for large intranets and some applications, but my impression so far is that it's not suited for sites like www.europython.org, which must be easy to understand and use for people who only use it once or twice. -- Magnus Lycka, Thinkware AB Eklovsvagen 146, S-443 50 Lerum, SWEDEN phone: int+46 70 582 80 65 http://www.thinkware.se/ mailto:magnus@thinkware.se From tom at aragne.com Wed Oct 6 19:29:52 2004 From: tom at aragne.com (tom) Date: Wed Oct 6 19:30:05 2004 Subject: [EuroPython] EPC 2005: where and when? References: <1096890121.32110.12.camel@ogg.webwitches.com><2mr7oemwr5.fsf@starship.python.net><1096902446.32110.86.camel@ogg.webwitches.com><41616D8E.6050804@ita.chalmers.se><200410041638.i94Gce8O023910@ratthing-b246.strakt.com><1096909469.835.15.camel@ogg.webwitches.com><4162340E.3050300@ita.chalmers.se> <200410050604.i9564vl5025539@ratthing-b246.strakt.com> Message-ID: <010301c4abca$1bc62350$807ba8c0@simkin> > I want other people to see it first. I do hope so :-) >Perhaps they will hate it. I don't want to do this by fiat. But I think that everybody who worked on the conference > last year is aware of how thoroughly unhappy and frustrated I was with Plone, > and the Plonish way of doing things, which is why I want to provide an alternative. Why wasn't the first site a good solution ;-P Regards, Tom. PS. Sorry, I won't be able to be at the proposed IRC meeting From ghum at gmx.net Wed Oct 6 20:37:10 2004 From: ghum at gmx.net (Harald Armin Massa) Date: Wed Oct 6 20:36:59 2004 Subject: [EuroPython] Meeting at 17.00 instead of 18.30 plus a report In-Reply-To: <200410052127.00837.jacob@strakt.com> References: <41610806.6010903@bredband.net> <200410042102.27854.jacob@strakt.com> <200410052127.00837.jacob@strakt.com> Message-ID: <41643B56.6060109@gmx.net> I will propably not have internet access with IRC at that thursday 1700. My vote is for G?theborg in 2005. Harald -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: ghum.vcf Type: text/x-vcard Size: 366 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://mail.python.org/pipermail/europython/attachments/20041006/8aa5d91c/ghum.vcf From dario at ita.chalmers.se Thu Oct 7 08:16:55 2004 From: dario at ita.chalmers.se (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Dario_Lopez-K=E4sten?=) Date: Thu Oct 7 08:16:55 2004 Subject: [EuroPython] EPC 2005: where and when? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4164DF57.8000209@ita.chalmers.se> Magnus Lycka wrote: >>Laura Creighton wrote: >> >>>But I think that everybody who worked on the conference >>>last year is aware of how thoroughly unhappy and frustrated I was with Plone, >>>and the Plonish way of doing things, which is why I want to provide an alternative. > > > Dario replied: > >>sure, though I think the problem with that stance is that many others >>were not unhappy. > > > I am so far unimpressed by Plone. I think I just realized why, and > also why there is this big gap in opinons about it. It seems to me > that Plone is designed to make web site designers and administrators > happy, and it seems that this happens at the expense of the visitors > of the web site. Most Plone sites I see look reasonably good (although > rather similar after a while) but provide poor navigation, often expose > flaws (like links or searches leading to pages that doesn't seem to be > intended for site visitors) and expose things on the pages that are > irrelevant to normal site visitors and thus increase the cognitive load > without adding value. > > I think it's important that things that are irrelevant to normal site > visitors are not shown to normal site visitors. Is that possible with > Plone? (I.e. hide the log in and join links for normal users, make sure > that .) I am not going into a dicussion of whether Plone is aporpiate or not - I am totally uninterested in that. Suffice it to say that Plone has been successfully used all over the world, and that I myself have coded an application to manage Kerberos passwords using Oracle as the Catalog backend. Most of the complaints are about VISUAL LAYOUT of the site, but that is *so* much an opinion and > I also got the feeling that he site designers tried to use features > of Plone that weren't at all ideal (or even intended) for the use it > got. The main example was to use the login and editing features that > are intended for Plone content providers for registration of conference > attendees and speakers. To me it's really surprising (and poor design) > to mix web site data with conference business data, but the foremost > problem was that registration was a lot more confusing than it ought to > be. Plone developement reminds me of application development in MS Excel, > and that is not in Plones favour... Well, like I said - see above... The onoy positive thing related to the website issue so far is that we are actually talking about it NOW and not 2 weeks before the conference. It seems quite obvious that most people that have complaints about the site do not know plone or zope at all; I have also com tu udnerstand that using Zope-based software is, to my utter amazement, a politically controversial issue in the non-zope python world. I wonder how much of the Plone issues people have are b ased on that. Nevertheless, I applause any effort to improve the website, and I think this dicussion is an utterly pointless one. If Strakt has an alternative solution, then by all means use that. I have no comments for the rest of this letter, other than what I allready have said above. /dario - withdrawing. -- -- ------------------------------------------------------------------- Dario Lopez-K?sten, IT Systems & Services Chalmers University of Tech. From dario at ita.chalmers.se Thu Oct 7 09:52:48 2004 From: dario at ita.chalmers.se (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Dario_Lopez-K=E4sten?=) Date: Thu Oct 7 09:52:49 2004 Subject: [EuroPython] Meeting at 17.00 instead of 18.30 plus a report In-Reply-To: <200410052127.00837.jacob@strakt.com> References: <41610806.6010903@bredband.net> <200410042102.27854.jacob@strakt.com> <200410052127.00837.jacob@strakt.com> Message-ID: <4164F5D0.1030406@ita.chalmers.se> Jacob Hall?n wrote: > Since the incoming responses indicate that 17.00 is a much better time, the > meeting will be held then. Hello, I just found out that I need to go and pick up my youngest at school this aftenoon, so now I definitely know that I will not be able to attend to this meeting. /dario -- -- ------------------------------------------------------------------- Dario Lopez-K?sten, IT Systems & Services Chalmers University of Tech. From Nicolas.Chauvat at logilab.fr Thu Oct 7 12:13:52 2004 From: Nicolas.Chauvat at logilab.fr (Nicolas Chauvat) Date: Thu Oct 7 12:13:55 2004 Subject: [EuroPython] EPC 2005: where and when? In-Reply-To: <4164DF57.8000209@ita.chalmers.se> References: <4164DF57.8000209@ita.chalmers.se> Message-ID: <20041007101352.GB891@logilab.fr> On Thu, Oct 07, 2004 at 08:16:55AM +0200, Dario Lopez-K?sten wrote: > Most of the complaints are about VISUAL LAYOUT of the site, but that is > *so* much an opinion and And a number of complaints about the internals are coming from people who did *not* participate in the web team last year. That makes their opinion less... informed (at least). -- Nicolas Chauvat logilab.fr - services en informatique avanc?e et gestion de connaissances From mwh at python.net Thu Oct 7 13:12:49 2004 From: mwh at python.net (Michael Hudson) Date: Thu Oct 7 13:12:51 2004 Subject: [EuroPython] EPC 2005: where and when? In-Reply-To: <20041007101352.GB891@logilab.fr> (Nicolas Chauvat's message of "Thu, 7 Oct 2004 12:13:52 +0200") References: <4164DF57.8000209@ita.chalmers.se> <20041007101352.GB891@logilab.fr> Message-ID: <2mhdp6kci6.fsf@starship.python.net> Nicolas Chauvat writes: > On Thu, Oct 07, 2004 at 08:16:55AM +0200, Dario Lopez-K?sten wrote: > >> Most of the complaints are about VISUAL LAYOUT of the site, but that is >> *so* much an opinion and > > And a number of complaints about the internals are coming from people who > did *not* participate in the web team last year. > > That makes their opinion less... informed (at least). But at least some of them are coming from people who didn't *think* they were on the web team, but ended up putting in many, many hours of "free" time learning about unfamiliar stuff and bolting things together to meet the go-live deadline. I don't have any particular beef with plone (although I'd rather have learnt about it in a more, uh, relaxed fashion), but a plea (that I've probably made before): EuroPython seems to be quite a big thing in the Plone world. The Plone world seems to be quite a large place. Surely there's at least one really experienced plone user who could spare a few hours for being on the EuroPython web team? What can we do to make finding this person(s) more likely? Cheers, mwh -- okay, tell me if i am crazy you are damn -- from Twisted.Quotes From dario at ita.chalmers.se Thu Oct 7 13:45:45 2004 From: dario at ita.chalmers.se (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Dario_Lopez-K=E4sten?=) Date: Thu Oct 7 13:45:46 2004 Subject: [EuroPython] EPC 2005: where and when? In-Reply-To: <2mhdp6kci6.fsf@starship.python.net> References: <4164DF57.8000209@ita.chalmers.se> <20041007101352.GB891@logilab.fr> <2mhdp6kci6.fsf@starship.python.net> Message-ID: <41652C69.60501@ita.chalmers.se> Michael Hudson wrote: > I don't have any particular beef with plone (although I'd rather have > learnt about it in a more, uh, relaxed fashion), but a plea (that I've > probably made before): EuroPython seems to be quite a big thing in the > Plone world. The Plone world seems to be quite a large place. Surely > there's at least one really experienced plone user who could spare a > few hours for being on the EuroPython web team? What can we do to > make finding this person(s) more likely? My 2 Eurocents: 1) Decide if we wish to do separate systems or one system does it all 2) Decide on what base we want for the website 3) If the decision is on using Plone for parts (all/some) of the website the make this decision quickly 4) take a deep breath, do some yoga/kickboxing/judo/quigong/whatever and get relaxed and openminded If the decision is to use plone: Technical things 6) Upgrade to latest and greatest Plone and Zope 7) Ban the usage of stuff that even in the plone world are experimental to some degree (ie ArcheTypes comes to mind). For the stuff we need, my thinking is that PythnScripts and Templates are all we need. 8) Keep things simple and manageable . ie if a certain functionality of Plone is not to our liking, fine - we do not use it (ie. the automatic navtree complaints of lat yer come to mind - This can e replaced by a navtree that is managed manually). 9) Someone(s) need to decide on what kind of look we want to have in the new site and present HTML-mockups 10) insert own opinions here. I am sure that most of what people wnat may be accomplished by using Plone and Keeping Things Simple. Also, we need to have at least a development server that is quite speedy. If needed be I can set up a machine specifically for this purpose. /dario -- -- ------------------------------------------------------------------- Dario Lopez-K?sten, IT Systems & Services Chalmers University of Tech. From kgmuller at xs4all.nl Thu Oct 7 13:48:03 2004 From: kgmuller at xs4all.nl (Klaus Muller) Date: Thu Oct 7 13:48:15 2004 Subject: [EuroPython] RE: Plone In-Reply-To: <20041007100104.729CF1E400F@bag.python.org> Message-ID: <200410071148.i97BmDJS090065@smtp-vbr11.xs4all.nl> Magnus is right on -- the EPC 2004 Plone site was very user-unfriendly and non-intuitive for users. Even when I am an avid Python user and therefore very positively inclined towards Plone or Zope, I could not care less whether a business transaction is being executed in Plone, Scheme or Fortran. BTW, I have seen better Plone sites than the EPC one. Maybe the problem is more on the design side than on the tool side. May I suggest that the person doing the EPC 2005 site looks at other conference sites and plagiarizes shamelessly from any good ones? Anyhow, throw the current site away and start again. It sucks! If a good site can be built in Plone and that is the preferred tool, ok, use Plone. But don't be Plone-dogmatic! Klaus Muller > -----Original Message----- > From: europython-bounces@python.org > [mailto:europython-bounces@python.org] On Behalf Of > europython-request@python.org > Sent: Thursday, October 07, 2004 12:01 PM > To: europython@python.org > Subject: EuroPython Digest, Vol 15, Issue 6 > > Send EuroPython mailing list submissions to > europython@python.org > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/europython > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > europython-request@python.org > > You can reach the person managing the list at > europython-owner@python.org > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more > specific than "Re: Contents of EuroPython digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: EPC 2005: where and when? (Magnus Lycka) > 2. Re: EPC 2005: where and when? (tom) > 3. Re: Meeting at 17.00 instead of 18.30 plus a report > (Harald Armin Massa) > 4. Re: EPC 2005: where and when? (Dario Lopez-K?sten) > 5. Re: Meeting at 17.00 instead of 18.30 plus a report > (Dario Lopez-K?sten) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2004 18:56:18 +0200 > From: Magnus Lycka > Subject: Re: [EuroPython] EPC 2005: where and when? > To: Dario Lopez-Kdsten , Laura Creighton > > Cc: bea@webwitches.com, "europython@python.org" > > Message-ID: > Content-Type: TEXT/plain; CHARSET=iso-8859-1 > > > Laura Creighton wrote: > > > But I think that everybody who worked on the conference > last year is > > > aware of how thoroughly unhappy and frustrated I was with > Plone, and > > > the Plonish way of doing things, which is why I want to > provide an alternative. > > Dario replied: > > sure, though I think the problem with that stance is that > many others > > were not unhappy. > > I am so far unimpressed by Plone. I think I just realized > why, and also why there is this big gap in opinons about it. > It seems to me that Plone is designed to make web site > designers and administrators happy, and it seems that this > happens at the expense of the visitors of the web site. Most > Plone sites I see look reasonably good (although rather > similar after a while) but provide poor navigation, often > expose flaws (like links or searches leading to pages that > doesn't seem to be intended for site visitors) and expose > things on the pages that are irrelevant to normal site > visitors and thus increase the cognitive load without adding value. > > I think it's important that things that are irrelevant to > normal site visitors are not shown to normal site visitors. > Is that possible with Plone? (I.e. hide the log in and join > links for normal users, make sure that .) > > I also got the feeling that he site designers tried to use > features of Plone that weren't at all ideal (or even > intended) for the use it got. The main example was to use the > login and editing features that are intended for Plone > content providers for registration of conference attendees > and speakers. To me it's really surprising (and poor design) > to mix web site data with conference business data, but the > foremost problem was that registration was a lot more > confusing than it ought to be. Plone developement reminds me > of application development in MS Excel, and that is not in > Plones favour... > > It seems to me that the EPC 2004 web site developers were too > focused on using Plone features, and too little focused on > building a web site that was easy for a visitor to use, or > perhaps they were a little near sighted, and saw things too > much with plony eyes... > > I think the site felt complicated and difficult to navigate. > It's really a small site, and only a few pages are needed. > I'm not sure the 2004 site provided useful new functionality > compared to the 2003 site, but it felt more confusing. > > I suspect that it would be best to use one tool to design the > actual www.europython.org web site (maybe Plone if all that > noise can be turned off), and a different tool (something > like Quixote and some kind of SQL database perhaps) to build > the web application for regstration of visitors and speakers > etc. The web site obviously needs to be able to show the > information entered by the speakers, but showing normal > database content on a web site isn't exactly rocket science. > (I'm just starting to write such services right now for a > state agency, but unfortunately I have to stick with C++ :( ) > > Plone might be a great site for large intranets and some > applications, but my impression so far is that it's not > suited for sites like www.europython.org, which must be easy > to understand and use for people who only use it once or twice. > > -- > Magnus Lycka, Thinkware AB > Eklovsvagen 146, S-443 50 Lerum, SWEDEN > phone: int+46 70 582 80 65 > http://www.thinkware.se/ mailto:magnus@thinkware.se > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2004 19:29:52 +0200 > From: "tom" > Subject: Re: [EuroPython] EPC 2005: where and when? > To: Dario Lopez-K?sten , "Laura > Creighton" > > Cc: bea@webwitches.com, europython@python.org, lac@strakt.com > Message-ID: <010301c4abca$1bc62350$807ba8c0@simkin> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > > I want other people to see it first. > > I do hope so :-) > > >Perhaps they will hate it. I don't want to do this by fiat. > But I think > that everybody who worked on the conference > > last year is aware of how thoroughly unhappy and frustrated > I was with > Plone, > > and the Plonish way of doing things, which is why I want to > provide an > alternative. > > Why wasn't the first site a good solution ;-P > > Regards, > Tom. > > PS. Sorry, I won't be able to be at the proposed IRC meeting > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 3 > Date: Wed, 06 Oct 2004 20:37:10 +0200 > From: Harald Armin Massa > Subject: Re: [EuroPython] Meeting at 17.00 instead of 18.30 plus a > report > To: "europython@python.org" > Message-ID: <41643B56.6060109@gmx.net> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > I will propably not have internet access with IRC at that > thursday 1700. > > My vote is for Gvtheborg in 2005. > > Harald > > -------------- next part -------------- > A non-text attachment was scrubbed... > Name: ghum.vcf > Type: text/x-vcard > Size: 366 bytes > Desc: not available > Url : > http://mail.python.org/pipermail/europython/attachments/200410 > 06/8aa5d91c/ghum-0001.vcf > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 4 > Date: Thu, 07 Oct 2004 08:16:55 +0200 > From: Dario Lopez-K?sten > Subject: Re: [EuroPython] EPC 2005: where and when? > To: Magnus Lycka > Cc: bea@webwitches.com, "europython@python.org" > , Laura Creighton > Message-ID: <4164DF57.8000209@ita.chalmers.se> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed > > Magnus Lycka wrote: > >>Laura Creighton wrote: > >> > >>>But I think that everybody who worked on the conference > >>>last year is aware of how thoroughly unhappy and > frustrated I was with Plone, > >>>and the Plonish way of doing things, which is why I want > to provide an alternative. > > > > > > Dario replied: > > > >>sure, though I think the problem with that stance is that > many others > >>were not unhappy. > > > > > > I am so far unimpressed by Plone. I think I just realized why, and > > also why there is this big gap in opinons about it. It seems to me > > that Plone is designed to make web site designers and administrators > > happy, and it seems that this happens at the expense of the visitors > > of the web site. Most Plone sites I see look reasonably > good (although > > rather similar after a while) but provide poor navigation, > often expose > > flaws (like links or searches leading to pages that doesn't > seem to be > > intended for site visitors) and expose things on the pages that are > > irrelevant to normal site visitors and thus increase the > cognitive load > > without adding value. > > > > I think it's important that things that are irrelevant to > normal site > > visitors are not shown to normal site visitors. Is that > possible with > > Plone? (I.e. hide the log in and join links for normal > users, make sure > > that .) > > I am not going into a dicussion of whether Plone is aporpiate > or not - I > am totally uninterested in that. Suffice it to say that Plone > has been > successfully used all over the world, and that I myself have coded an > application to manage Kerberos passwords using Oracle as the Catalog > backend. > > Most of the complaints are about VISUAL LAYOUT of the site, > but that is > *so* much an opinion and > > > I also got the feeling that he site designers tried to use features > > of Plone that weren't at all ideal (or even intended) for the use it > > got. The main example was to use the login and editing features that > > are intended for Plone content providers for registration > of conference > > attendees and speakers. To me it's really surprising (and > poor design) > > to mix web site data with conference business data, but the > foremost > > problem was that registration was a lot more confusing than > it ought to > > be. Plone developement reminds me of application > development in MS Excel, > > and that is not in Plones favour... > > Well, like I said - see above... The onoy positive thing > related to the > website issue so far is that we are actually talking about it NOW and > not 2 weeks before the conference. > > It seems quite obvious that most people that have complaints > about the > site do not know plone or zope at all; I have also com tu udnerstand > that using Zope-based software is, to my utter amazement, a > politically > controversial issue in the non-zope python world. > > I wonder how much of the Plone issues people have are b ased on that. > > Nevertheless, I applause any effort to improve the website, > and I think > this dicussion is an utterly pointless one. If Strakt has an > alternative > solution, then by all means use that. > > I have no comments for the rest of this letter, other than what I > allready have said above. > > /dario - withdrawing. > > -- > -- ------------------------------------------------------------------- > Dario Lopez-Kdsten, IT Systems & Services Chalmers University of Tech. > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 5 > Date: Thu, 07 Oct 2004 09:52:48 +0200 > From: Dario Lopez-K?sten > Subject: Re: [EuroPython] Meeting at 17.00 instead of 18.30 plus a > report > To: Jacob Hall?n > Cc: europython@python.org > Message-ID: <4164F5D0.1030406@ita.chalmers.se> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed > > Jacob Hallin wrote: > > Since the incoming responses indicate that 17.00 is a much > better time, the > > meeting will be held then. > > Hello, I just found out that I need to go and pick up my youngest at > school this aftenoon, so now I definitely know that I will > not be able > to attend to this meeting. > > /dario > > -- > -- ------------------------------------------------------------------- > Dario Lopez-Kdsten, IT Systems & Services Chalmers University of Tech. > > > ------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > EuroPython mailing list > EuroPython@python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/europython > > > End of EuroPython Digest, Vol 15, Issue 6 > ***************************************** > -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: smime.p7s Type: application/x-pkcs7-signature Size: 3723 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://mail.python.org/pipermail/europython/attachments/20041007/99619da5/smime.bin From Nicolas.Chauvat at logilab.fr Thu Oct 7 13:59:47 2004 From: Nicolas.Chauvat at logilab.fr (Nicolas Chauvat) Date: Thu Oct 7 13:59:50 2004 Subject: [EuroPython] EPC 2005: where and when? In-Reply-To: <2mhdp6kci6.fsf@starship.python.net> References: <4164DF57.8000209@ita.chalmers.se> <20041007101352.GB891@logilab.fr> <2mhdp6kci6.fsf@starship.python.net> Message-ID: <20041007115947.GN891@logilab.fr> On Thu, Oct 07, 2004 at 12:12:49PM +0100, Michael Hudson wrote: > [people spent a lot of time working on the website] true, true, true. I know that I did not spend time on it and do not complain that it had flaws nor try to tell others what to use for next year. I just remarked that some opinions could use some experience as backup. > there's at least one really experienced plone user who could spare a > few hours for being on the EuroPython web team? What can we do to > make finding this person(s) more likely? Ask on freenode #plone, maybe ? -- Nicolas Chauvat logilab.fr - services en informatique avanc?e et gestion de connaissances From mwh at python.net Thu Oct 7 14:04:57 2004 From: mwh at python.net (Michael Hudson) Date: Thu Oct 7 14:04:59 2004 Subject: [EuroPython] EPC 2005: where and when? In-Reply-To: <20041007115947.GN891@logilab.fr> (Nicolas Chauvat's message of "Thu, 7 Oct 2004 13:59:47 +0200") References: <4164DF57.8000209@ita.chalmers.se> <20041007101352.GB891@logilab.fr> <2mhdp6kci6.fsf@starship.python.net> <20041007115947.GN891@logilab.fr> Message-ID: <2md5zuka3a.fsf@starship.python.net> Nicolas Chauvat writes: > On Thu, Oct 07, 2004 at 12:12:49PM +0100, Michael Hudson wrote: > >> [people spent a lot of time working on the website] > > true, true, true. I know that I did not spend time on it and do not complain > that it had flaws nor try to tell others what to use for next year. I just > remarked that some opinions could use some experience as backup. Yes. I was also trying hard not to dig at you personally... >> there's at least one really experienced plone user who could spare a >> few hours for being on the EuroPython web team? What can we do to >> make finding this person(s) more likely? > > Ask on freenode #plone, maybe ? I've tried this before, but generally in a more "acute" fashion. I can always try again :) -- The "of course, while I have no problem with this at all, it's surely too much for a lesser being" flavor of argument always rings hollow to me. -- Tim Peters, 29 Apr 1998 From dario at ita.chalmers.se Thu Oct 7 14:21:25 2004 From: dario at ita.chalmers.se (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Dario_Lopez-K=E4sten?=) Date: Thu Oct 7 14:21:25 2004 Subject: [EuroPython] Seeking voluntary Plone Developers for EuroPython Help Message-ID: <416534C5.2050306@ita.chalmers.se> Hello, the EuroPython Conference Community is commencing it's initial preparations for the EuroPython 2005 conference. One of the items on the agenda is preparing the EuroPython website. At the moment we are working on deciding if we are happy with the current technical platform we are using (Plone) or if we need to make a switch. If we, after due process, decide on continue using Plone, we will need volunteers helping with the development of the site. Is there interest in the Plone Developers Community in contributing to this work? For Plone developers and designers, this is an excellent opportunity to contribute to the EuroPython community. As a developer, you'll be getting valuable experience and exiting challenges developing a stylish and visually appealling website with very high demands: high availability, thousands of visitors worldwide, potentially hundreds of registered users, highly interactive and dynamic while still being blindly fast. While the decision is not yet made on wether we shall continue with Plone or not, we appreciate that most developers and designers are usually quite busy, which is why we want be prepared and plan ahead as much as possible. So, if you are interested in helping, do not hesitate to send a message to europython@python.org with a short description of yourself and what you think you can contribute. Thank you. /dario for the EuroPython team. -- -- ------------------------------------------------------------------- Dario Lopez-K?sten, IT Systems & Services Chalmers University of Tech. From dario at ita.chalmers.se Thu Oct 7 14:24:30 2004 From: dario at ita.chalmers.se (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Dario_Lopez-K=E4sten?=) Date: Thu Oct 7 14:24:31 2004 Subject: [EuroPython] Need to obtain the current EPC site to start working on it Message-ID: <4165357E.7010008@ita.chalmers.se> How do I go about that? Products, export files etc.... Anyone? /dario -- -- ------------------------------------------------------------------- Dario Lopez-K?sten, IT Systems & Services Chalmers University of Tech. From mvm at brutele.be Thu Oct 7 15:14:08 2004 From: mvm at brutele.be (mvm) Date: Thu Oct 7 15:25:12 2004 Subject: [EuroPython] The layout of EPC References: <4164DF57.8000209@ita.chalmers.se> <20041007101352.GB891@logilab.fr> Message-ID: <001401c4ac6f$8747e640$040211ac@graph> >> Most of the complaints are about VISUAL LAYOUT of the site, but that is >> *so* much an opinion and > >And a number of complaints about the internals are coming from people who >did *not* participate in the web team last year. > >That makes their opinion less... informed (at least). > >-- >Nicolas Chauvat If there is a number of complaints about VISUAL LAYOUT, what about this attachment, I took a few time to make a layout easy to put quickly in the "Plone" web site of EuroPython. Cordially, Vincent Maton -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: layout.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 46970 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://mail.python.org/pipermail/europython/attachments/20041007/9d5996f5/layout-0001.jpg From dario at ita.chalmers.se Thu Oct 7 15:34:08 2004 From: dario at ita.chalmers.se (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Dario_Lopez-K=E4sten?=) Date: Thu Oct 7 15:34:10 2004 Subject: [EuroPython] The layout of EPC In-Reply-To: <001401c4ac6f$8747e640$040211ac@graph> References: <4164DF57.8000209@ita.chalmers.se> <20041007101352.GB891@logilab.fr> <001401c4ac6f$8747e640$040211ac@graph> Message-ID: <416545D0.4090405@ita.chalmers.se> mvm wrote: >>>Most of the complaints are about VISUAL LAYOUT of the site, but that is >>>*so* much an opinion and >> >>And a number of complaints about the internals are coming from people who >>did *not* participate in the web team last year. >> >>That makes their opinion less... informed (at least). >> >>-- >>Nicolas Chauvat > > > If there is a number of complaints about VISUAL LAYOUT, > what about this attachment, I took a few time to make a layout > easy to put quickly in the "Plone" web site of EuroPython. Looks neat. What typefaces, colors, etc are you using? Do you have the original EPC logo as well? What about size of the images? Thanks, /dario -- -- ------------------------------------------------------------------- Dario Lopez-K?sten, IT Systems & Services Chalmers University of Tech. From Nicolas.Chauvat at logilab.fr Thu Oct 7 15:39:12 2004 From: Nicolas.Chauvat at logilab.fr (Nicolas Chauvat) Date: Thu Oct 7 15:39:16 2004 Subject: [EuroPython] The layout of EPC In-Reply-To: <416545D0.4090405@ita.chalmers.se> References: <20041007101352.GB891@logilab.fr> <001401c4ac6f$8747e640$040211ac@graph> <416545D0.4090405@ita.chalmers.se> Message-ID: <20041007133912.GT891@logilab.fr> On Thu, Oct 07, 2004 at 03:34:08PM +0200, Dario Lopez-K?sten wrote: > Looks neat. What typefaces, colors, etc are you using? Do you have the > original EPC logo as well? He's the one who made it :-) -- Nicolas Chauvat logilab.fr - services en informatique avanc?e et gestion de connaissances From dario at ita.chalmers.se Thu Oct 7 16:03:10 2004 From: dario at ita.chalmers.se (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Dario_Lopez-K=E4sten?=) Date: Thu Oct 7 16:03:17 2004 Subject: [EuroPython] The layout of EPC In-Reply-To: <20041007133912.GT891@logilab.fr> References: <20041007101352.GB891@logilab.fr> <001401c4ac6f$8747e640$040211ac@graph> <416545D0.4090405@ita.chalmers.se> <20041007133912.GT891@logilab.fr> Message-ID: <41654C9E.3050509@ita.chalmers.se> Nicolas Chauvat wrote: > On Thu, Oct 07, 2004 at 03:34:08PM +0200, Dario Lopez-K?sten wrote: > > >>Looks neat. What typefaces, colors, etc are you using? Do you have the >>original EPC logo as well? > > > He's the one who made it :-) > Tha it secellent news, because tha means I no longer have to work with low-res jpegs and play tricks with resolutions in Photoshop whenever we need to make a change. :-) /dario -- -- ------------------------------------------------------------------- Dario Lopez-K?sten, IT Systems & Services Chalmers University of Tech. From ghum at gmx.net Thu Oct 7 16:25:34 2004 From: ghum at gmx.net (Harald Armin Massa) Date: Thu Oct 7 16:25:35 2004 Subject: [EuroPython] The layout of EPC In-Reply-To: <001401c4ac6f$8747e640$040211ac@graph> References: <4164DF57.8000209@ita.chalmers.se> <20041007101352.GB891@logilab.fr> <001401c4ac6f$8747e640$040211ac@graph> Message-ID: <416551DE.1060206@gmx.net> Vincent, looks really nice. apart from your design and directed to the whole group: ############################################################ One usuablity idea: this is the site of "europython - conference. People will be most interested in: -> the current Europython Conference. So: put that on www.europython.org ... so no "Conferences, Goetheborg 2005" klicking is needed. ################################# Harald -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: ghum.vcf Type: text/x-vcard Size: 366 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://mail.python.org/pipermail/europython/attachments/20041007/d58cbf49/ghum.vcf From anna at aleax.it Thu Oct 7 16:29:14 2004 From: anna at aleax.it (Anna Martelli Ravenscroft) Date: Thu Oct 7 16:29:17 2004 Subject: [EuroPython] The layout of EPC In-Reply-To: <001401c4ac6f$8747e640$040211ac@graph> References: <20041007101352.GB891@logilab.fr> <001401c4ac6f$8747e640$040211ac@graph> Message-ID: <200410071629.14232.anna@aleax.it> On Thursday 07 October 2004 15:14, mvm wrote: > >> Most of the complaints are about VISUAL LAYOUT of the site, but that is > >> *so* much an opinion and > > > >And a number of complaints about the internals are coming from people who > >did *not* participate in the web team last year. > > > >That makes their opinion less... informed (at least). > > > >-- > >Nicolas Chauvat > > If there is a number of complaints about VISUAL LAYOUT, > what about this attachment, I took a few time to make a layout > easy to put quickly in the "Plone" web site of EuroPython. > > > Cordially, > > Vincent Maton Looks kewl. I've gotta run some errands and may end up missing the meeting, so here's my $.03 worth: We need to decide now what pages we really need and take time to get them working properly. If we set them up with "TBD" info wherever we don't know a decision, we can make decisions as we need to and fill in the blanks as we go. Easier registration and accomodation pages, and easy access to info, are a high priority, imho, for the general public. Easier entry and acceptance of talks (and uploading of info) would be helpful for speakers and track chairs. If we know ahead of time who the track chairs are, I'd suggest an automatic email notification to the speaker and the track chair of any talk entry, with a message, such as: """Thank you for your submission, "talkname", to EuroPython 2005. Jane Doe is the track chair for the "x" talks track. We expect to accept/decline submissions by DDate. Your track chair should contact you by FDate. Cordially, The EuroPython 2005 Committee""" At least that way, they're not left in the dark... And the track chairs have an automatic way of telling when they've had submissions. Gotta run, Anna From jmo at ita.chalmers.se Thu Oct 7 18:36:42 2004 From: jmo at ita.chalmers.se (Jean-Marc Orliaguet) Date: Thu Oct 7 18:39:49 2004 Subject: [EuroPython] The layout of EPC In-Reply-To: <001401c4ac6f$8747e640$040211ac@graph> References: <4164DF57.8000209@ita.chalmers.se> <20041007101352.GB891@logilab.fr> <001401c4ac6f$8747e640$040211ac@graph> Message-ID: <4165709A.4010607@ita.chalmers.se> mvm wrote: >>>Most of the complaints are about VISUAL LAYOUT of the site, but that is >>>*so* much an opinion and >>> >>> >>And a number of complaints about the internals are coming from people who >>did *not* participate in the web team last year. >> >>That makes their opinion less... informed (at least). >> >>-- >>Nicolas Chauvat >> >> > > > Hi! >If there is a number of complaints about VISUAL LAYOUT, >what about this attachment, I took a few time to make a layout >easy to put quickly in the "Plone" web site of EuroPython. > > >Cordially, > >Vincent Maton > With all respect, the visual layout is the same, this is called 'skinning'. It looks definitely better but in terms of human-computer interaction the effect is basically the same except maybe on a emotional level, which does not last. If people are complaining about the visual layout, maybe they mean: - it is difficult to navigate the site - there are too many useless options ('login' menu, 'join', etc.) - the horizontal menu is too wide, it forces visitors to scroll horizontally - the printable page is not printable because the horizontal layout is to wide to fit on a single page - it is difficult to find information, the search function returns every temporary document ever created (instead of those published) - there is no way of knowing what documents have been updated lately - there is no way of subscribing to a particular page to get informed about changes (I for instance had to check the same page several times a day just to find out if my talk had been accepted, an email would have been enough) - not a single page has a contact / author information or last updated date except that Plone is copyright Alexander Limi, Alan ... then maybe content providers have something to say, I have not followed the discussions so I don't know. /JM From Nicolas.Chauvat at logilab.fr Thu Oct 7 19:01:29 2004 From: Nicolas.Chauvat at logilab.fr (Nicolas Chauvat) Date: Thu Oct 7 19:01:32 2004 Subject: [EuroPython] The layout of EPC In-Reply-To: <4165709A.4010607@ita.chalmers.se> References: <20041007101352.GB891@logilab.fr> <001401c4ac6f$8747e640$040211ac@graph> <4165709A.4010607@ita.chalmers.se> Message-ID: <20041007170129.GA1333@logilab.fr> On Thu, Oct 07, 2004 at 06:36:42PM +0200, Jean-Marc Orliaguet wrote: > then maybe content providers have something to say, I have not followed > the discussions so I don't know. As a track chair, here are two things that could be improved in terms of usability: - e-mail notification of talk submission/rejection/acceptance - upload of presentations (I knew plone and could add mines, but most people preferred to use the wiki to do it, thus splitting the sources of data) - ability to get the list of e-mails of authors of all accepted talks May I suggest that we put the information collected during this discussion somewhere so that when the web team resumes work they have a useful list of things to look at instead of getting complaints five days after the site goes live ? -- Nicolas Chauvat logilab.fr - services en informatique avanc?e et gestion de connaissances From jmo at ita.chalmers.se Thu Oct 7 19:11:37 2004 From: jmo at ita.chalmers.se (Jean-Marc Orliaguet) Date: Thu Oct 7 19:15:10 2004 Subject: [EuroPython] The layout of EPC In-Reply-To: <20041007170129.GA1333@logilab.fr> References: <20041007101352.GB891@logilab.fr> <001401c4ac6f$8747e640$040211ac@graph> <4165709A.4010607@ita.chalmers.se> <20041007170129.GA1333@logilab.fr> Message-ID: <416578C9.6080409@ita.chalmers.se> Nicolas Chauvat wrote: >On Thu, Oct 07, 2004 at 06:36:42PM +0200, Jean-Marc Orliaguet wrote: > > > >>then maybe content providers have something to say, I have not followed >>the discussions so I don't know. >> >> > >As a track chair, here are two things that could be improved in terms of >usability: > >- e-mail notification of talk submission/rejection/acceptance > >- upload of presentations (I knew plone and could add mines, but most > people preferred to use the wiki to do it, thus splitting the sources > of data) > >- ability to get the list of e-mails of authors of all accepted talks > >May I suggest that we put the information collected during this discussion >somewhere so that when the web team resumes work they have a useful list of >things to look at instead of getting complaints five days after the site >goes live ? > > > Absolutely, contact information is important too. then maybe there is a need for more advanced workflows than simply accept / reject as for instance the ability to reorganize talk durations, create new tracks, move talks between tracks, assign talks to new track chairs, delegate the responsibility of accepting talks when track chairs are not responsive enough, etc. If these tasks need to be solved on IRC, then you might as well do the entire talk acceptance process on IRC. I am not sure that the default "publish-in-place" accept/reject workflow of CMF/Plone is sufficient for the task that is needed here. Maybe Julien who has worked a lot with advanced workflows in courierCPS has an idea about how to better solve this? /JM From john at clocksoft.com Thu Oct 7 17:47:10 2004 From: john at clocksoft.com (John Pinner) Date: Thu Oct 7 19:21:57 2004 Subject: [EuroPython] EuroPython 2004 Feedback Form Message-ID: <1097164029.9545.3.camel@pike.clocksoft.dom> As requested by Jacob, attached are (open, standard) OpenOffice.org and (closed, secret) Word format copies of the feedback form. John -- John Pinner. john@clocksoft.com Clockwork Software Systems 'Systems to stand the test of time' Bridge House, 17a Maybrook Road Sutton Coldfield, B76 1AL. UK Tel: +44 121 313 3850. Fax: +44 121 313 3860 intY has scanned this email for all known viruses (www.inty.com) -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: EuroPython_Feedback.sxw Type: application/vnd.sun.xml.writer Size: 11056 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://mail.python.org/pipermail/europython/attachments/20041007/c20ed1d1/EuroPython_Feedback-0001.bin -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: EuroPython_Feedback.doc Type: application/msword Size: 22016 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://mail.python.org/pipermail/europython/attachments/20041007/c20ed1d1/EuroPython_Feedback-0001.doc From magnus at thinkware.se Thu Oct 7 21:41:34 2004 From: magnus at thinkware.se (Magnus Lycka) Date: Thu Oct 7 21:41:40 2004 Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?B?U2hvb2xCZWxsIGZvciBFUEMgc2NoZWR1bGluZz8gUmU6IFtFdXJvUHl0aG9uXSBUaGUgbGF5b3V0IG9mIEVQQw==?= Message-ID: Jean-Marc Orliaguet wrote: > then maybe there is a need for more advanced workflows than simply > accept / reject as for instance the ability to reorganize talk > durations, create new tracks, move talks between tracks, assign talks to > new track chairs, delegate the responsibility of accepting talks when > track chairs are not responsive enough, etc. If these tasks need to be > solved on IRC, then you might as well do the entire talk acceptance > process on IRC. Perhaps something like School Tools "SchoolBell" would be more useful? (See http://www.schooltool.org/schoolbell/ ) As far as I see it, it is scheduling features, not workflow features that we really need for the track chairs. Besides, it would be nice to use one of Mark Shuttleworth's initiatives after that nice talk of his... :) Also, the main school tool developers were actively taking part of EPC, and I imagine they might help out with this. > I am not sure that the default "publish-in-place" accept/reject workflow > of CMF/Plone is sufficient for the task that is needed here. It seems to me that Plone is designed to publish texts on web sites. It's never been intended as a tool for handling business transactions such as attendee registrations or scheduling tasks such as planning conference talks. Its workflow system is aimed at the specific purpose of enabling the publication of data on a web site, not to enable business transactions or conference planning. I guess this is true for all web site content management systems. I'm sure Plone can be used to publish such data on a web site, but I seriously doubt that it's the most suitable tool for talk scheduling or visitor registration applications. /Magnus -- Magnus Lycka, Thinkware AB http://www.thinkware.se/ mailto:magnus@thinkware.se From magnus at thinkware.se Thu Oct 7 21:57:18 2004 From: magnus at thinkware.se (Magnus Lycka) Date: Thu Oct 7 21:57:21 2004 Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?B?UmU6IFtFdXJvUHl0aG9uXSBUaGUgbGF5b3V0IG9mIEVQQw==?= Message-ID: Jean-Marc Orliaguet wrote: > - it is difficult to navigate the site > - there are too many useless options ('login' menu, 'join', etc.) > - the horizontal menu is too wide, it forces visitors to scroll horizontally > - the printable page is not printable because the horizontal layout is > to wide to fit on a single page > - it is difficult to find information, the search function returns every > temporary document ever created (instead of those published) > - there is no way of knowing what documents have been updated lately > - there is no way of subscribing to a particular page to get informed > about changes (I for instance had to check the same page several times a > day just to find out if my talk had been accepted, an email would have > been enough) > - not a single page has a contact / author information or last updated > date except that Plone is copyright Alexander Limi, Alan ... This is an excellent summary of the problems. Thanks Jean-Marc. Let me just add the problems of registering for the conference, with duplicate users created, lack of clear feedback, the fact that users were created and left on the system if you just tried out the registration form but never finalized your registration etc. It seems to me that creating the visitor registration in Plone was a severe case of trying to push a square peg into a round hole. I can understand the resons for doing so, but I'd rather see these things kept apart. On the other hand, I can appreciate that we don't want to spend more resources than needed on redoing things that we've already spent a lot of time on. After all, the more time we spend on fixing the web site and conference software, the less time we will have for things like preparing talks, writing nice programs to present or spreading the word about the conference to more people... I suppose that the people who actaully worked with the site are the ones best suited to determine what the best strategy for further development is. Regardless of how visitor and speaker registration, talk scheduling etc is handled, there is some work to be done But I also think Tom's question about the EPC 2003 site is relevant. It seems to me that the old site was better than the new from a users perspective. Was it much worse from other perspectives, or is it just that it wasn't Plone? -- Magnus Lycka, Thinkware AB http://www.thinkware.se/ mailto:magnus@thinkware.se From magnus at thinkware.se Thu Oct 7 23:58:46 2004 From: magnus at thinkware.se (Magnus Lycka) Date: Thu Oct 7 23:58:50 2004 Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?B?UmU6IFtFdXJvUHl0aG9uXSBFUEMgMjAwNTogd2hlcmUgYW5kIHdoZW4/?= Message-ID: I wrote: > > It seems to me > > that Plone is designed to make web site designers and administrators > > happy, and it seems that this happens at the expense of the visitors > > of the web site. Dario Lopez-K?sten wrote: > It seems quite obvious that most people that have complaints about the > site do not know plone or zope at all; I think your comment underlines my point. You shouldn't *have* to know Plone to smoothly and confidently register for a conference as a speaker at a web site, or to comment on a site's usability. The complaints come from user experiences, and it's obviously impossible for us to know to what extent problems are caused by the tools or by other factors. It's also difficult for the user to evaluate (and honestly also to appreciate ;) if the difficulties in user experience is the price for a smooth developer and administrator experience. I don't have a clue about how useful these two systems were to the track chairs for scheduling, and I don't know how easy they were from a content management point of view. I only know that site navigation and visitor registration was fairly smooth and straight forward in 2003, but felt confusing and a bit frustrating in 2004. I wasn't a speaker in 2003, so I can't compare that. I did add content to the 2004 EPC site, but it seems it basically got lost, and was later largely duplicated by text added by others in other pages. It was much easier for to get things to actually appear on the old site since a human being who understood that site read the mailing list, found useful content in my mail and added that. Trying to involve humans on the new site always led to the response "do it yourself" which I tried, and didn't manage sucessfully, despite more than 20 years of more or less daily computer use and 15 years as a professional software developer. Someone else has to judge whether I'm too stupid for Plone, or if Plone is too stupid for me (or both, or possibly neither). I first investigated Zope when it was still called bobo. I haven't used it very much though, but I've used ZODB in a fairly sized system, and I've certainly played around with both Zope and Plone now and then. I even own two paper books on Zope, and read parts of them. Zope and Plone never seemed right for any of sites I built, but I'm hoping that Zope 3 will turn out to fit my needs better. It seems to be going in the right direction, but this has little to do with EPC. So, obviously it's possible to have complints without being totally Zope ignorant. We are all certainly aware that the site was developed under a lot of stress by people who had a lot of other things (such as work) to think of. But I do remember people complaining about last years site, and telling how much better it would be with a Plone based site. From my perspective, the site didn't get better. It got worse. Maybe that was more a project management issue than tool issue. Hopefully, the site can be fixed. I didn't look a lot at the 2002 site, and 2003 was the second year for the old site. Maybe the 2004 site will get much better in its second year... :) It's clearly possible to make Plone sites feel more polished than the out-of-the-box look of the current EPC site, and perhaps a round peg will actually fit in a square hole eventually... I don't want to discourage anyone from working with it, and I'm really greatful for all the efforts made to make EPC happen, both in 2004, in previous years, and in the years to come. But I still think it's a poor fit to use a CMS tool for business transactions and scheduling. On the other side, it's impossible (or at least uneconomical) to build perfect systems. > I have also com tu udnerstand > that using Zope-based software is, to my utter amazement, a politically > controversial issue in the non-zope python world. Zope software is controversial to many Python programmers, because it's conceptually very different from Python. For instance, if you (like many Pythonistas) use the standard Unix tools to improve your productivity, and apply the many-small-tools-doing-one-thing-well Unix philosophy, Zope will fit poorly in your world. I don't see this as "political". It's not just that it's a Framework, imposing control over your code, it also places your application instructions in an object database, together with the application data, which is something most programmers try to avoid for good reasons. It also makes you work a lot in HTML forms, instead of your favourite editor. I don't find it surprising at all that there is controversy around Zope, concerning that it's been described as the Python killer application, while being conceptually so different from Python as a development tool. "Normal" Python development is very well integrated with traditional software development tools and environments. For me it's in many ways similar with software development in VBA in applications like MS Excel or Access. Just as in these tools, you get a lot of features for free, there are ways of "breaking the bonds" both when it concerns the location of code, filesystem integration and with editing tools etc, but it's still a bit awkward. Just like Excel and Access, it can be very useful, and also very frustrating. It seems to me that the Zope developers are working hard to eliminate the problems and make it more Pythonic, and many of the best Python programmers are involved in this, so I'm very optimistic about its future. -- Magnus Lycka, Thinkware AB http://www.thinkware.se/ mailto:magnus@thinkware.se From ja at nuxeo.com Fri Oct 8 00:17:16 2004 From: ja at nuxeo.com (Julien Anguenot) Date: Fri Oct 8 00:17:19 2004 Subject: [EuroPython] The layout of EPC In-Reply-To: <416578C9.6080409@ita.chalmers.se> References: <20041007101352.GB891@logilab.fr> <001401c4ac6f$8747e640$040211ac@graph> <4165709A.4010607@ita.chalmers.se> <20041007170129.GA1333@logilab.fr> <416578C9.6080409@ita.chalmers.se> Message-ID: <4165C06C.7000807@nuxeo.com> > > I am not sure that the default "publish-in-place" accept/reject workflow > of CMF/Plone is sufficient for the task that is needed here. Maybe > Julien who has worked a lot with advanced workflows in courierCPS has an > idea about how to better solve this? > ke t'aware Well, the problem is that pluggin "serious" workflows on Plone might take a while. I'm not saying that it's not possible but it doesn't exist yet and I'm not aware of all the problems we might have by changing the current one since I'm not a Plone devel) I still don't get why people refuse to check CPS (Zope/CMF based under GPL) which is including 'out of the box' features for coping with that and already running in a lot of larged scaled projet with success. Plone is a really nice project providing a lot of good stuffs though. Regards, J. -- Julien Anguenot | Nuxeo (Paris, France) mail: anguenot at nuxeo.com; tel: +33 (0) 6 72 57 57 66 From ja at nuxeo.com Fri Oct 8 00:28:40 2004 From: ja at nuxeo.com (Julien Anguenot) Date: Fri Oct 8 00:28:45 2004 Subject: [EuroPython] EPC 2005: where and when? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4165C318.9060904@nuxeo.com> Hello, > > I first investigated Zope when it was still called bobo. I haven't > used it very much though, but I've used ZODB in a fairly sized system, > and I've certainly played around with both Zope and Plone now and then. > I even own two paper books on Zope, and read parts of them. Zope and > Plone never seemed right for any of sites I built, but I'm hoping that > Zope 3 will turn out to fit my needs better. It seems to be going in > the right direction, but this has little to do with EPC. So, obviously > it's possible to have complints without being totally Zope ignorant. > Zope3 is an app server not a CMS. (ie : framework to built sthg) > > It's clearly possible to make Plone sites feel more polished than the > out-of-the-box look of the current EPC site, and perhaps a round peg > will actually fit in a square hole eventually... > Try CPSSkins on top of Plone and wear your glasses ;) You will be amaze about what you can do with your mouse to change the look & feel and manage portal portlets; > I don't want to ourage anyone from working with it, and I'm really > greatful for all the efforts made to make EPC happen, both in 2004, in > previous years, and in the years to come. But I still think it's a poor > fit to use a CMS tool for business transactions and scheduling. On the > other side, it's impossible (or at least uneconomical) to build perfect > systems. > If you need more powerful collaborative tools such as workflows, versionning, workspaces etc... you really should take a look at CPS. > >>I have also com tu udnerstand >>that using Zope-based software is, to my utter amazement, a politically >>controversial issue in the non-zope python world. > Well, in France the Zope market is fairly good et least. > > Zope software is controversial to many Python programmers, because it's > conceptually very different from Python. For instance, if you (like many > Pythonistas) use the standard Unix tools to improve your productivity, > and apply the many-small-tools-doing-one-thing-well Unix philosophy, > Zope will fit poorly in your world. I don't see this as "political". > don't get why ? > It's not just that it's a Framework, imposing control over your code, > it also places your application instructions in an object database, > together with the application data, which is something most programmers > try to avoid for good reasons. It also makes you work a lot in HTML > forms, instead of your favourite editor. that's definitely wrong. (Products are made for that) > > I don't find it surprising at all that there is controversy around Zope, > concerning that it's been described as the Python killer application, > while being conceptually so different from Python as a development tool. > "Normal" Python development is very well integrated with traditional > software development tools and environments. I'm working with Xterm and emacs with Zope without any problem. Never using the ZMI except for refreshing the Products. > > For me it's in many ways similar with software development in VBA in > applications like MS Excel or Access. Just as in these tools, you > get a lot of features for free, there are ways of "breaking the bonds" > both when it concerns the location of code, filesystem integration and > with editing tools etc, but it's still a bit awkward. Just like Excel > and Access, it can be very useful, and also very frustrating. > I can't believe you comparing M$ stuffs and Zope ... > It seems to me that the Zope developers are working hard to eliminate > the problems and make it more Pythonic, and many of the best Python > programmers are involved in this, so I'm very optimistic about its > future. > > me too :) J. -- Julien Anguenot | Nuxeo (Paris, France) mail: anguenot at nuxeo.com; tel: +33 (0) 6 72 57 57 66 From lac at strakt.com Fri Oct 8 02:10:48 2004 From: lac at strakt.com (Laura Creighton) Date: Fri Oct 8 02:11:02 2004 Subject: [EuroPython] The layout of EPC In-Reply-To: Message from Jean-Marc Orliaguet of "Thu, 07 Oct 2004 19:11:37 +0200." <416578C9.6080409@ita.chalmers.se> References: <20041007101352.GB891@logilab.fr> <001401c4ac6f$8747e640$040211ac@graph> <4165709A.4010607@ita.chalmers.se> <20041007170129.GA1333@logilab.fr> <416578C9.6080409@ita.chalmers.se> Message-ID: <200410080010.i980AmwY000418@ratthing-b246.strakt.com> In a message of Thu, 07 Oct 2004 19:11:37 +0200, Jean-Marc Orliaguet writes: >I am not sure that the default "publish-in-place" accept/reject workflow >of CMF/Plone is sufficient for the task that is needed here. Maybe >Julien who has worked a lot with advanced workflows in courierCPS has an >idea about how to better solve this? > >/JM We've already written one using Strakt's CAPS system, which is, after all a workflow system. Jean-Marc, we would be really happy to see you at future #irc meetings or in general on channel #europython on freednode. Laura From ghum at gmx.net Fri Oct 8 12:04:24 2004 From: ghum at gmx.net (Harald Armin Massa) Date: Fri Oct 8 12:04:30 2004 Subject: [EuroPython] For the CONFERENCE: content proposal (NOT Website, Bea you can read too) Message-ID: <41666628.7060208@gmx.net> Hello Europythoneers! after showerstorming (=brainstorming by myself while showering) yesterdays IRC-meeting-discussions I came up with a change request to my request "Python for beginners track" Call it "take a chance on Python" (expl.: Sweden - Abba - the Album (1977) contains "take a chance on me") The idea: I learned from some participants, that they have just gotten curios about that "Python thingy" ... maybe some new worker in their company finished a software project in time and claimed it on Python, or through skimming some of the BigNames in Web (like Sir Tim Berners-Lee "By the way.. Python is cool" http://www.w3.org/2000/10/swap/#L88 ) or through Uche Ogbuji articles on XML threatment ... And then googled through the web, found "hey, Sir Tim Berners-Lee might be correct; let's go to Sweden where the girls are blond and kaviar is cheep and visit Europython and learn sth. about Python" I am confident that this squad is precious to the further success of Python, so giving them some knowledge they can really understand is quite a positive objective - because some of these will be judging to "allow" Python as a language of choice. The concept is: - have a 3 x 1/2 day seminar with "python for really new bies" - on the other time they can attend the "normal conference", get the Pythoneers feeling, enjoy keynotes, sniff something about metaphysical decorators and metaclasses with protocols using webframeworks the "seminar" will be a really basic "how to do hello world with python" going up to real world uses, for example: - Python basics: syntax and semantics (types of data, control structures, functions, parameters, comments...) - special look on the dicts and lists and sets - which are really KILLERfeatures productivitywise - modules - namespaces: how to keep things organized ((expl. to EP: people who are responsible for managing sth. often really care for structures)) - accessing COM-objects from python: samples how to fill values into Excel and format Cells there (expl. to EP: If you have to convince pointy-haired ones or controllers, pushing data to Excel is of unbelievable value. I KNOW that using the Excel-Object-Model is not really Python Stuff, but "hey, you can do THAT with Python is a good sales tactic) - list comprehensions (expl. to EP: they are extraordinarily powerfull. And everybody who programmed has had that "go through data and do .... type of job. Seeing that Python allows to collapse that to 1 line is a great show of power) - accessing databases from Python, skimming the basics of the DB-API of Python. (expl. to EP: every company that was touched in any way by data processing consulting the last 20 years now HAS a database with some cricital information stored. Showing that Python can EASILY interact and report with this data is of great value) ########################## But: WHY should somebody do these kind of talks? My suggestion is: make this a pedagogical experiment in training and seminar techniques We can use: - collaborative learning - mixed trainers --- every speaker explains sth. for a limited time frame; so the trainees get different ways of explanation of everything ...... and even better: we surely have access to universities, and I am SURE that in the social science, especially pedagogical faculties there are some really new teaching concepts which really have to be tried. AND to do that on a Python conference may strengthen the foothold of Python within social sciences. the output for the speakers in this "track" - the get in touch with "state of the art" teaching methods - they can polish there communication skills with "non tech people" - they can sharpen up their reputation as a trainer the output for the attendees: - they can say "I learned to programm Python" and tell the truth - they have the guarantee that there will be sth. on the conference which they really can understand the output for the EP conference: - we can market the conference also as a "Python seminar" so that there is a additional source of budget to send people there which may give us more participants - we can attract really newbies who are curious about Python - with working with social sciences esp. pedagogical faculties we may take steps to balance the gender ratio on the conference the output for the Python communitie: - with luck some decision-makers are at that seminars and can accept that Python is the light side of the source - we strengthen the foothold within social science / pedagogical branches #################################### So, what do you think? Harald -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: ghum.vcf Type: text/x-vcard Size: 366 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://mail.python.org/pipermail/europython/attachments/20041008/2949b605/ghum.vcf From jmo at ita.chalmers.se Fri Oct 8 17:17:23 2004 From: jmo at ita.chalmers.se (Jean-Marc Orliaguet) Date: Fri Oct 8 17:30:46 2004 Subject: [EuroPython] The layout of EPC In-Reply-To: <4165C06C.7000807@nuxeo.com> References: <20041007101352.GB891@logilab.fr> <001401c4ac6f$8747e640$040211ac@graph> <4165709A.4010607@ita.chalmers.se> <20041007170129.GA1333@logilab.fr> <416578C9.6080409@ita.chalmers.se> <4165C06C.7000807@nuxeo.com> Message-ID: <4166AF83.7000104@ita.chalmers.se> Julien Anguenot wrote: >> >> I am not sure that the default "publish-in-place" accept/reject >> workflow of CMF/Plone is sufficient for the task that is needed here. >> Maybe Julien who has worked a lot with advanced workflows in >> courierCPS has an idea about how to better solve this? >> ke t'aware > > > Well, the problem is that pluggin "serious" workflows on Plone might > take a while. I'm not saying that it's not possible but it doesn't > exist yet and I'm not aware of all the problems we might have by > changing the current one since I'm not a Plone devel) > > I still don't get why people refuse to check CPS (Zope/CMF based under > GPL) which is including 'out of the box' features for coping with that > and already running in a lot of larged scaled projet with success. > > Plone is a really nice project providing a lot of good stuffs though. > > Regards, > > J. > There is a way to do the whole acceptance implementation in CPS3 without modifying a single line of code: It requires in my opinion two roles (tracks reviewer and tracks manager). There were only track reviewers last year and this is what caused all the problems when presentations had to be moved between tracks since no one was then "in charge" for the whole thing. This is just a draft, but: - create a CPS document template called 'Presentation' with - presentation title - presenters name, presenter's picture (optional) ... - description - attached files ... - start time / end time (to be filled by the tracks managers) - set up the tracks as different 'Sections' in CPS3 (i.e. create as many sections as there are tracks) - give the track chairs the 'Section reviewer' role on their respective tracks - give the conference managers the 'Section manager' role on all the tracks - let speakers create 'Presentation' documents in their home workspace and let them publish the presentations into as many tracks as they'd wish to appear in. (set up a local workflow in the tracks sections so that 'Presentations' may only be published in tracks and not anywhere in the site, that's easy) - Section reviewers receive an email notification through CPSSubscriptions saying that documents are pending in their tracks waiting for approval. - Section reviewers accept / reject the presentation(s) - When all presentations have been accepted in the tracks, the section managers can then set presentation dates and times on documents, move presentations between tracks, etc.. - Speakers get informed through CPSSubscriptions whenever their talk get accepted / rejected / moved to another track ... A same presentation may be accepted by two track chairs in several tracks, then the track manager will have to decide in the end which tracks it fits the best. - Use the Calendar box to display the programme of each track by displaying only the presentation published in the respective tracks. - When the whole process is finished, give the anonymous users the 'Section reader' role and everyone can have a look at the programme when it's ready. - As regards the layout it can be redone in CPSSkins in a few minutes, and be much faster (the response time on my laptop is now down to 0.07- 0.1s / page with the debug mode on). /JM From ja at nuxeo.com Fri Oct 8 17:55:11 2004 From: ja at nuxeo.com (Julien Anguenot) Date: Fri Oct 8 17:55:14 2004 Subject: [EuroPython] The layout of EPC In-Reply-To: <4166AF83.7000104@ita.chalmers.se> References: <20041007101352.GB891@logilab.fr> <001401c4ac6f$8747e640$040211ac@graph> <4165709A.4010607@ita.chalmers.se> <20041007170129.GA1333@logilab.fr> <416578C9.6080409@ita.chalmers.se> <4165C06C.7000807@nuxeo.com> <4166AF83.7000104@ita.chalmers.se> Message-ID: <4166B85F.6090003@nuxeo.com> Exactly It would work like that on a 'stock' CPS3 and will take what... n hours to get something working You may even use CPSTypeMaker to create your presentation content type without going to the ZMI ;) J. > There is a way to do the whole acceptance implementation in CPS3 without > modifying a single line of code: > It requires in my opinion two roles (tracks reviewer and tracks > manager). There were only track reviewers last year and this is what > caused all the problems when presentations had to be moved between > tracks since no one was then "in charge" for the whole thing. > > This is just a draft, but: > > - create a CPS document template called 'Presentation' with > - presentation title > - presenters name, presenter's picture (optional) ... > - description > - attached files ... > - start time / end time (to be filled by the tracks managers) > > - set up the tracks as different 'Sections' in CPS3 (i.e. create as many > sections as there are tracks) > - give the track chairs the 'Section reviewer' role on their respective > tracks > - give the conference managers the 'Section manager' role on all the tracks > > - let speakers create 'Presentation' documents in their home workspace > and let them publish the presentations into as many tracks as they'd > wish to appear in. > (set up a local workflow in the tracks sections so that 'Presentations' > may only be published in tracks and not anywhere in the site, that's easy) > > - Section reviewers receive an email notification through > CPSSubscriptions saying that documents are pending in their tracks > waiting for approval. > > - Section reviewers accept / reject the presentation(s) > > - When all presentations have been accepted in the tracks, the section > managers can then set presentation dates and times on documents, move > presentations between tracks, etc.. > > - Speakers get informed through CPSSubscriptions whenever their talk get > accepted / rejected / moved to another track ... > A same presentation may be accepted by two track chairs in several > tracks, then the track manager will have to decide in the end which > tracks it fits the best. > > - Use the Calendar box to display the programme of each track by > displaying only the presentation published in the respective tracks. > > - When the whole process is finished, give the anonymous users the > 'Section reader' role and everyone can have a look at the programme when > it's ready. > > - As regards the layout it can be redone in CPSSkins in a few minutes, > and be much faster (the response time on my laptop is now down to 0.07- > 0.1s / page with the debug mode on). > > /JM > -- Julien Anguenot | Nuxeo (Paris, France) mail: anguenot at nuxeo.com; tel: +33 (0) 6 72 57 57 66 From bea at webwitches.com Sat Oct 9 08:33:34 2004 From: bea at webwitches.com (Beatrice Fontaine) Date: Sat Oct 9 08:29:10 2004 Subject: [EuroPython] For the CONFERENCE: content proposal (NOT Website, Bea you can read too) In-Reply-To: <41666628.7060208@gmx.net> References: <41666628.7060208@gmx.net> Message-ID: <1097303614.11320.8.camel@ogg.webwitches.com> On Fri, 2004-10-08 at 12:04, Harald Armin Massa wrote: > Hello Europythoneers! [...] > So, what do you think? I think you are using the right soap in the shower, is what I think :) I believe you are on to something excellent. It also means, however, that if a _big_ "Python for beginners" action is planned as part of the conference, it needs to be decided fairly _nowish_ because marketing outside the community is exponentially more difficult than inside the community, and that is what it would entail. That is the only consideration on my side. Cheers bea PS thanks for the warning in the subject line ;) -- bea@webwitches.com "My agenda is so hidden that I can't find it myself". Me. From mwh at python.net Sat Oct 9 14:01:43 2004 From: mwh at python.net (Michael Hudson) Date: Sat Oct 9 14:01:44 2004 Subject: [EuroPython] For the CONFERENCE: content proposal (NOT Website, Bea you can read too) In-Reply-To: <1097303614.11320.8.camel@ogg.webwitches.com> (Beatrice Fontaine's message of "Sat, 09 Oct 2004 08:33:34 +0200") References: <41666628.7060208@gmx.net> <1097303614.11320.8.camel@ogg.webwitches.com> Message-ID: <2mwty0gkwo.fsf@starship.python.net> Beatrice Fontaine writes: > On Fri, 2004-10-08 at 12:04, Harald Armin Massa wrote: >> Hello Europythoneers! > > [...] > >> So, what do you think? > > I think you are using the right soap in the shower, is what I think :) > > I believe you are on to something excellent. It also means, however, > that if a _big_ "Python for beginners" action is planned as part of the > conference, it needs to be decided fairly _nowish_ because marketing > outside the community is exponentially more difficult than inside the > community, and that is what it would entail. That is the only > consideration on my side. I agree on both points. I feel that the each EuroPython (perhaps unsurprisingly) has had a higher profile outside the immediate Python/Zope world than the last and this is good and should continue, but I have no idea how to accelerate it... Cheers, mwh -- Guido (like us!) is a bit schizophrenic here: he wants to be a benevolent dictator, but also wants to treat people like grownups. This probably worked better before Python got a large American audience <0.9 wink>. -- Tim Peters, 10 Feb 2000 From Andrew.Smart at smart-knowhow.de Mon Oct 11 09:44:16 2004 From: Andrew.Smart at smart-knowhow.de (Andrew Smart) Date: Mon Oct 11 09:44:30 2004 Subject: AW: ShoolBell for EPC scheduling? Re: [EuroPython] The layout of EPC In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <004001c4af66$1c407d90$0301a8c0@adsmobil> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 europython-bounces@python.org wrote: > Betreff: ShoolBell for EPC scheduling? Re: [EuroPython] The layout of > EPC > > > Jean-Marc Orliaguet wrote: >> then maybe there is a need for more advanced workflows than simply >> accept / reject as for instance the ability to reorganize talk >> durations, create new tracks, move talks between tracks, assign >> talks to new track chairs, delegate the responsibility of accepting >> talks when track chairs are not responsive enough, etc. If these >> tasks need to be solved on IRC, then you might as well do the entire >> talk acceptance process on IRC. > > Perhaps something like School Tools "SchoolBell" would be more useful? > (See http://www.schooltool.org/schoolbell/ ) As far as I see it, it > is scheduling features, not workflow features that we really need for > the track chairs. > > Besides, it would be nice to use one of Mark Shuttleworth's > initiatives after that nice talk of his... :) Also, the main school > tool developers were actively taking part of EPC, and I imagine they > might help out with this. > >> I am not sure that the default "publish-in-place" accept/reject >> workflow of CMF/Plone is sufficient for the task that is needed here. > > It seems to me that Plone is designed to publish texts on web sites. > It's never been intended as a tool for handling business transactions > such as attendee registrations or scheduling tasks such as planning > conference talks. > > Its workflow system is aimed at the specific purpose of enabling the > publication of data on a web site, not to enable business transactions > or conference planning. I guess this is true for all web site content > management systems. > > I'm sure Plone can be used to publish such data on a web site, but I > seriously doubt that it's the most suitable tool for talk scheduling > or visitor registration applications. > > > > /Magnus I'm currently in contact with the SchoolTool project, and I fairly accurate about the functionality provided. AFAIK the project currently *doesn't* provide the functionality the EPC would need. Timetabling and the corresponding workflows are on the road, but the EPC needs the stuff fairly fast, so I won't advise it. But I'll contact Mark and Tom about talking on the next EPC. Regards, Andrew -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: PGP 8.0.1 iQA/AwUBQWo50LNFpK160GCxEQIMrQCgzpPVelSxOMeeo/H3lG/dOEdYIa4AoKnv hB9LxvEAn427DXmyw0LtjuWG =xVMC -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From tom at aragne.com Mon Oct 11 19:50:06 2004 From: tom at aragne.com (tom) Date: Mon Oct 11 19:50:00 2004 Subject: [EuroPython] Small note Message-ID: <01dd01c4afba$beed7f30$807ba8c0@simkin> Hi, I couldn't be at the meeting, last week, so I'm not sure what has been talked about. Is there a place where we can find the summary of it? I wanted to say something on the IRC channel, but now I've to do it here, since it might happen every day from now on. Anyway, I just want to note, that I won't be that very active within the next months. I'm sorry about that (some people might be happy now ;-))! The thing is that I soon have other things to do... soon I've to behave myself as a responsible.... parent ... so I will be occupied with a little thingy who wants all the attention of the world. (and then there is also the house we want to build) I don't have the time (nor am I allowed) to have an IRC channel continuesly open, so it would be nice if people posted a note on this mailing list, a day or so before each new EPC meeting. I do hope that people give me a yell when I'm needed and/or keep me informed about EPC. But I will keep myself low-profile (if possible) It's strange, I think there exists some kind of EPC fever... you can't get rid of it :-) Regards, Tom. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mail.python.org/pipermail/europython/attachments/20041011/f1d36735/attachment.html From dario at ita.chalmers.se Tue Oct 12 10:29:11 2004 From: dario at ita.chalmers.se (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Dario_Lopez-K=E4sten?=) Date: Tue Oct 12 10:29:13 2004 Subject: [EuroPython] Small note In-Reply-To: <01dd01c4afba$beed7f30$807ba8c0@simkin> References: <01dd01c4afba$beed7f30$807ba8c0@simkin> Message-ID: <416B95D7.7020707@ita.chalmers.se> tom wrote: > The thing is that I soon have other things to do... soon I've to behave > myself as a responsible.... parent ... so I will be occupied with a > little thingy who wants all the attention of the world. (and then there > is also the house we want to build) Yay! Congratulations! You are in for a whole new experience of fun and hard work :-) > I don't have the time (nor am I allowed) to have an IRC channel > continuesly open, so it would be nice if people posted a note on this > mailing list, a day or so before each new EPC meeting. I do hope that > people give me a yell when I'm needed and/or keep me informed about EPC. +1 /dario -- -- ------------------------------------------------------------------- Dario Lopez-K?sten, IT Systems & Services Chalmers University of Tech. From rev_anna_r at yahoo.com Tue Oct 12 17:34:44 2004 From: rev_anna_r at yahoo.com (Anna Ravenscroft) Date: Tue Oct 12 17:34:50 2004 Subject: [EuroPython] Small note In-Reply-To: <01dd01c4afba$beed7f30$807ba8c0@simkin> References: <01dd01c4afba$beed7f30$807ba8c0@simkin> Message-ID: <416BF994.2040700@yahoo.com> tom wrote: > Hi, > > I couldn't be at the meeting, last week, so I'm not sure what has been > talked about. Is there a place where we can find the summary of it? I > wanted to say something on the IRC channel, but now I've to do it here, > since it might happen every day from now on. > > Anyway, I just want to note, that I won't be that very active within the > next months. I'm sorry about that (some people might be happy now ;-))! > The thing is that I soon have other things to do... soon I've to behave > myself as a responsible.... parent ... so I will be occupied with a > little thingy who wants all the attention of the world. (and then there > is also the house we want to build) > A baby? Congratulations! Wow - marriages and babies and everything. How awesome. Us EP folks seem to be determined to singlehandedly (grouphandedly?) change the image of geeks as anti-social loners... Anna From ivo at amaze.nl Wed Oct 13 12:49:06 2004 From: ivo at amaze.nl (Ivo van der Wijk) Date: Wed Oct 13 12:49:14 2004 Subject: [EuroPython] Europython zope instance moved Message-ID: <416D0822.9020705@amaze.nl> Hi All, The europython.org zope instance has been moved to a new server. Everything should remain the same, except for ssh access. Please use 'biostabil.amaze.nl' for ssh sessions. Any further questions can be sent to support@amaze.nl Cheers Ivo -- Drs. I.R. van der Wijk -=- Korte Leidsedwarsstraat 12 Amaze 1017 RC Amsterdam, NL -=- T +31-20-4688336 F +31-20-4688337 Zope/Plone/Content Management W http://www.amaze.nl E info@amaze.nl Open Source Solutions W http://vanderwijk.info E ivo@amaze.nl Consultancy PGP http://vanderwijk.info/pgp From aiste at pov.lt Fri Oct 15 14:58:04 2004 From: aiste at pov.lt (Aiste Kesminaite) Date: Fri Oct 15 14:58:09 2004 Subject: [EuroPython] Europython 2004 feedback results Message-ID: <20041015125804.GT16351@fridge.pov.lt> Hello europythoneers, POV has processed the EP 2004 feedback and produced preliminary results. They can be found here: Your suggestions on how to make the results more usefull are welcome. -- Aiste Kesminaite Managing director, Programmers of Vilnius Phone: +370 6563 6462 Email: aiste@pov.lt Web: www.pov.lt From bea at webwitches.com Fri Oct 15 16:26:10 2004 From: bea at webwitches.com (Beatrice Fontaine) Date: Fri Oct 15 16:20:59 2004 Subject: [EuroPython] Europython 2004 feedback results In-Reply-To: <20041015125804.GT16351@fridge.pov.lt> References: <20041015125804.GT16351@fridge.pov.lt> Message-ID: <1097850370.21593.3.camel@ogg.webwitches.com> On Fri, 2004-10-15 at 14:58, Aiste Kesminaite wrote: > Hello europythoneers, > > POV has processed the EP 2004 feedback and produced preliminary results. > > They can be found here: > > > > Your suggestions on how to make the results more usefull are welcome. WOW! These results are so good that I would think they were invented if I hadn't seen the questionnaires with my own eyes. This is extremely helpful!!! All other serious feedback aside, I really think we need to have the conference dinner at that _fabulous_ place again :) cheers & many thanks for the work! bea -- bea@webwitches.com "My agenda is so hidden that I can't find it myself". Me. From ghum at gmx.net Fri Oct 15 16:30:32 2004 From: ghum at gmx.net (Harald Armin Massa) Date: Fri Oct 15 16:30:34 2004 Subject: [EuroPython] Europython 2004 feedback results In-Reply-To: <1097850370.21593.3.camel@ogg.webwitches.com> References: <20041015125804.GT16351@fridge.pov.lt> <1097850370.21593.3.camel@ogg.webwitches.com> Message-ID: <416FDF08.7060600@gmx.net> >All other serious feedback aside, I really think we need to have the >conference dinner at that _fabulous_ place again :) > > We have to evaluate carefully, how much positive feedback on the dinner correlates to the announcement of marriage made there. I think there would be major logistic problems to arrange another one of these announcements. Harald -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: ghum.vcf Type: text/x-vcard Size: 366 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://mail.python.org/pipermail/europython/attachments/20041015/ae0a698b/ghum.vcf From bea at webwitches.com Fri Oct 15 16:42:54 2004 From: bea at webwitches.com (Beatrice Fontaine) Date: Mon Oct 18 12:10:41 2004 Subject: [EuroPython] Europython 2004 feedback results In-Reply-To: <416FDF08.7060600@gmx.net> References: <20041015125804.GT16351@fridge.pov.lt> <1097850370.21593.3.camel@ogg.webwitches.com> <416FDF08.7060600@gmx.net> Message-ID: <1097851374.21593.8.camel@ogg.webwitches.com> On Fri, 2004-10-15 at 16:30, Harald Armin Massa wrote: > >All other serious feedback aside, I really think we need to have the > >conference dinner at that _fabulous_ place again :) > > > > > We have to evaluate carefully, how much positive feedback on the dinner > correlates to the announcement of marriage made there. I think there > would be major logistic problems to arrange another one of these > announcements. shapr and I have been announcing our wedding for five years, so another occasion to do the same won't hurt - mind you, we could top it by inviting a priest and having the _wedding_ there Weddings or no weddings, the food was simply outstanding. -- bea@webwitches.com "My agenda is so hidden that I can't find it myself". Me. From magnus at thinkware.se Mon Oct 18 20:11:33 2004 From: magnus at thinkware.se (Magnus Lycka) Date: Mon Oct 18 20:11:39 2004 Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?B?UmU6IFtFdXJvUHl0aG9uXSBFdXJvcHl0aG9uIDIwMDQgZmVlZGJhY2sgcmVzdWx0cw==?= Message-ID: > shapr and I have been announcing our wedding for five years, so another > occasion to do the same won't hurt - mind you, we could top it by > inviting a priest and having the _wedding_ there Considering the cost of a decent wedding, I can imagine why you'd want to take a free ride on EPC with your wedding party. You're probably just saying this to get a lot of wedding presents! ;) Seriously I agree with Harald that we should use some caution in our evaluation of the questionaire. It seems clear that we can draw the conclusion that most of the people who filled in the questionaire were happy about the conference, and I don't think a lot of people left after half of the conference, or skipped the questionaire because they were so pissed off by EPC, so we might even make the guess that most people who visited the conference were happy about it. Still, with 127 responses, most people who visited the conference didn't hand in any response, and while a *random* sample of n=127 is decent for a thingie like this, the act of writing and handing in a questionaire isn't random... Another thing we *don't* know, is to what extent there were people who didn't come to the conference because of one reason or another, what they think, what could have made them come, and whether the conference had been better with them present... Maybe there people who didn't feel convinced about the quality because the program appeared to late, or who didn't want to travel so far north, or who didn't get sufficiently impressed by the web site etc. I don't know how to get around this problem in a convenient manner, but we should remember that there is a bias in the questionare, particularly regarding questions that might have affetced peoples decision to turn up or not, such as location, program and registration process etc. That shouldn't prevent us from being happy and proud over EPC 2004, I'm basically just damaged from being married to a scientist who performs statistical analyses all day long... Another interesting thing is to see what things people liked, and what they didn't like. Just listing the number of excellent minus poor gives the following list: 65 overall impression 63 conference dinner 55 food 41 well organized program 34 accomodation 30 good talks 24 internet access 10 web site Even the worst listed aspect has a few more "excellent" than "poor", but it's a bit surprising that "overall impression" rated higher than any specific factor. I'm no expert in questionaire psychology, maybe someone can figure this out. Did we ask the wrong questions? Maybe it's just that we didn't have the same scale for all questions? It's clear that the dinner, food, Chalmers and G?teborg was appreciated, but the quality of the talks could probably be somewhat better. (And the reliability of the PC projector combinations. Actually, I was thinking that my projector problems might be a good excuse to buy a projector for my company! :) It would also be interesting to know why almost 9% though that the internet connection was poor. Might one guess that these 9% don't have a wireless network adapter? Concerning the comments people wrote, it seems we should try to get Mark come again, and remove the chair for Guido so that he gives his keynote talk standing! -- Magnus Lycka, Thinkware AB http://www.thinkware.se/ mailto:magnus@thinkware.se From lac at strakt.com Mon Oct 18 20:16:05 2004 From: lac at strakt.com (Laura Creighton) Date: Mon Oct 18 20:16:21 2004 Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?B?UmU6IFtFdXJvUHl0aG9uXSBFdXJvcHl0aG9uIDIwMDQgZmVlZGJhY2sgcmVzdWx0cw==?= In-Reply-To: Message from Magnus Lycka of "Mon, 18 Oct 2004 20:11:33 +0200." References: Message-ID: <200410181816.i9IIG5AY023061@ratthing-b246.strakt.com> In a message of Mon, 18 Oct 2004 20:11:33 +0200, Magnus Lycka writes: >It would also be interesting to know why almost 9% though that the internet >connection was poor. Might one guess that these 9% don't have a wireless >network adapter? That is some of them. But some people want to type away - while inside the session lecture halls -- and that was problematic for some. Wifi outside of the lecture halls worked well for everybody who could use it as far as I know. Laura From rev_anna_r at yahoo.com Mon Oct 18 22:59:06 2004 From: rev_anna_r at yahoo.com (Anna Ravenscroft) Date: Mon Oct 18 22:59:19 2004 Subject: [EuroPython] Europython 2004 feedback results In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <41742E9A.4050606@yahoo.com> Magnus Lycka wrote: > It would also be interesting to know why almost 9% though that the internet > connection was poor. Might one guess that these 9% don't have a wireless > network adapter? I had wireless. It sucked down in the conference rooms. Anna From rev_anna_r at yahoo.com Mon Oct 18 23:02:54 2004 From: rev_anna_r at yahoo.com (Anna Ravenscroft) Date: Mon Oct 18 23:07:16 2004 Subject: [EuroPython] Europython 2004 feedback results In-Reply-To: <1097851374.21593.8.camel@ogg.webwitches.com> References: <20041015125804.GT16351@fridge.pov.lt> <1097850370.21593.3.camel@ogg.webwitches.com> <416FDF08.7060600@gmx.net> <1097851374.21593.8.camel@ogg.webwitches.com> Message-ID: <41742F7E.9000503@yahoo.com> Beatrice Fontaine wrote: > On Fri, 2004-10-15 at 16:30, Harald Armin Massa wrote: > >>>All other serious feedback aside, I really think we need to have the >>>conference dinner at that _fabulous_ place again :) >>> >>> >> >>We have to evaluate carefully, how much positive feedback on the dinner >>correlates to the announcement of marriage made there. LOL >>I think there >>would be major logistic problems to arrange another one of these >>announcements. > > > shapr and I have been announcing our wedding for five years, so another > occasion to do the same won't hurt - mind you, we could top it by > inviting a priest and having the _wedding_ there > > Weddings or no weddings, the food was simply outstanding. > > > The food *and* the service was outstanding. I was amazed at how well the service went. Great work on the banquet, whoever set it up (Laura?) Anna From aiste at pov.lt Mon Oct 18 23:51:59 2004 From: aiste at pov.lt (Aiste Kesminaite) Date: Tue Oct 19 10:59:35 2004 Subject: [EuroPython] Europython 2004 feedback results In-Reply-To: <41742F7E.9000503@yahoo.com> References: <20041015125804.GT16351@fridge.pov.lt> <1097850370.21593.3.camel@ogg.webwitches.com> <416FDF08.7060600@gmx.net> <1097851374.21593.8.camel@ogg.webwitches.com> <41742F7E.9000503@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20041018215158.GE16351@fridge.pov.lt> > >Weddings or no weddings, the food was simply outstanding. > > > The food *and* the service was outstanding. I was amazed at how well the > service went. The service was outstanding, true. But as far as the food goes... I know, that vegetarians are a minority in most social groups, pythoneers are not an exception either. That does not mean that we don't need food. The amount of nutrition and taste in the food that vegetarians were served was appaling in my opinion. -- Aiste Kesminaite Managing director, Programmers of Vilnius Phone: +370 6563 6462 Email: aiste@pov.lt Web: www.pov.lt From lac at strakt.com Tue Oct 19 06:18:26 2004 From: lac at strakt.com (Laura Creighton) Date: Tue Oct 19 10:59:52 2004 Subject: [EuroPython] Europython 2004 feedback results In-Reply-To: Message from Anna Ravenscroft of "Mon, 18 Oct 2004 23:02:54 +0200." <41742F7E.9000503@yahoo.com> References: <20041015125804.GT16351@fridge.pov.lt> <1097850370.21593.3.camel@ogg.webwitches.com> <416FDF08.7060600@gmx.net> <1097851374.21593.8.camel@ogg.webwitches.com> <41742F7E.9000503@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <200410190418.i9J4IQal024106@ratthing-b246.strakt.com> In a message of Mon, 18 Oct 2004 23:02:54 +0200, Anna Ravenscroft writes: >The food *and* the service was outstanding. I was amazed at how well the >service went. > >Great work on the banquet, whoever set it up (Laura?) > >Anna Ok, I'll do it again next this year. Laura From bea at webwitches.com Tue Oct 19 14:43:46 2004 From: bea at webwitches.com (Beatrice Fontaine) Date: Tue Oct 19 14:38:08 2004 Subject: [EuroPython] Europython 2004 feedback results (warning - long) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1098189825.19368.82.camel@ogg.webwitches.com> On Mon, 2004-10-18 at 20:11, Magnus Lycka wrote: > Considering the cost of a decent wedding, I can imagine why you'd want > to take a free ride on EPC with your wedding party. You're probably > just saying this to get a lot of wedding presents! ;) Erm, Who was talking about a free ride? Don't spread indecent rumours...! > Seriously I agree with Harald that we should use some caution in our > evaluation of the questionaire. That is what one should always do when talking about statistics. But isn't it always nicer to exercise caution on statistics that are _not_ the nails to your coffin? Caution or not, these are good results and that is a good thing. > It seems clear that we can draw the conclusion that most of the people > who filled in the questionaire were happy about the conference, and I > don't think a lot of people left after half of the conference, or skipped > the questionaire because they were so pissed off by EPC, so we might even > make the guess that most people who visited the conference were happy > about it. Still, with 127 responses, most people who visited the > conference didn't hand in any response, and while a *random* sample of > n=127 is decent for a thingie like this, the act of writing and handing > in a questionaire isn't random... That's why "indicators" are called just that ;) > Another thing we *don't* know, is to what extent there were people who > didn't come to the conference because of one reason or another, what they > think, what could have made them come, and whether the conference had > been better with them present... Maybe there people who didn't feel > convinced about the quality because the program appeared to late, or who > didn't want to travel so far north, or who didn't get sufficiently > impressed by the web site etc. Well, that is really market analysis and has not that much to do with establishing statistical indicators for why the conference as such was a success for those who _did_ participate. I grant you that market analysis (pull) is a worthwhile endeavour if we want to increase the impact of the conference, but it is also by far more work than offering a conference to the best of one's abilities (push). If we go further down the road of marketing the conference outside of the community in order to draw in new user groups, as Harald and some others suggested, then that is an exercise to go through. > I don't know how to get around this problem in a convenient manner, but > we should remember that there is a bias in the questionare, particularly > regarding questions that might have affetced peoples decision to turn up > or not, such as location, program and registration process etc. By benchmarking against other conferences that are at the same level, draw 5 times more visitors who come back every year, and which charge these visitors by far higher entrance fees and still get them to come. > That shouldn't prevent us from being happy and proud over EPC 2004, I'm > basically just damaged from being married to a scientist who performs > statistical analyses all day long... Then you know all about it already, anyhow :) And yes, I think we can all be happy and proud because it was obvious to the plain eye there, not only on the questionnaires, that people took home a good vibe, no matter what projector flaked where, how many talks overlapped, and whether the registration process drove you nuts or not. I think that for those people who actively helped organise the conference, that is a very motivating factor, isn't it? While we are sucking up all the criticism because it will help improve everything that didn't work out, we can also lap up the good stuff along the way. Since the event was a success, it is important to remember _that_ more than anything else. because _that_ is where the marketing sits. We need an evaluation of all that was good. The good stuff sells, and we want more people to come. > Another interesting thing is to see what things people liked, and what they > didn't like. Just listing the number of excellent minus poor gives the > following list: > > 65 overall impression > 63 conference dinner > 55 food > 41 well organized program > 34 accomodation > 30 good talks > 24 internet access > 10 web site > > Even the worst listed aspect has a few more "excellent" than "poor", but > it's a bit surprising that "overall impression" rated higher than any > specific factor. I'm no expert in questionaire psychology, maybe someone > can figure this out. Did we ask the wrong questions? Maybe it's just > that we didn't have the same scale for all questions? It means that not all aspects are of equal importance to all people and that many people thought it excellent although there were irritating factors. For instance, you may think that the conference was brilliant and not give a toss about what the food is like, because it is not a priority to you at all. Also, there was some muttering about why there wasn't any soap in the bathrooms, which means that some people gave less than "excellent" to an accommodation that was superbly cheap, clean, friendly, comfortable, at walking distance from the conference, and with a supermarket. Beats me how that can be less than excellent... Yet only 34 people said it was. It makes me wonder what people expect (and at what price!). I had soap with me, because I figured that at that price, there wouldn't be any. But that is _my_ personal opinion and is of no relevance to one who obviously had different expectations. That doesn't necessarily mean to the latter that the overall event was less than excellent, anyhow. There were 10 people who thought the website was excellent and I (as one of its cooks) think that that is certainly not true, but it just goes to show that people perceive things differently from the outside. Even though most questionnaires said that it was "good" and only few said it was truly terrible, it is entirely our choice to set that as a benchmark or not. Does this evaluation mean it is good enough (=should stay this way) or that we want/need more than 10 "excellent", and if yes, at the expense of how much work that can be accomplished and _who_ wants to take care of making it truly excellent? People have been going on about the whole registration thing for months now, yet now we read that many people thought it was easy, whereas more than 150 people didn't even hand in the questionnaire. Not handing in a questionnaire, from experience, meant that it was all "OK" as far as they are concerned. People usually fill them in because they 1) have just had the most wonderful time of their life, 2) they think it (or at least part of it) was a total and utter disaster and _must_ be commented on, or 3) they know the organisers and want to be nice to them. Everybody else just floats along, and that is perfectly fine. Most people happily floating along is the way it should be, especially if the event becomes larger. Anyhow, I think that the free comments at the bottom were actually the most enriching part, because that is where people put down what really made _them_ happy/unhappy as individuals. It shows what really stuck out for them. That is the most helpful part for me, personally, because it can't be washed into numbers. Let's use it all. bea -- bea@webwitches.com "My agenda is so hidden that I can't find it myself". Me. From alga at pov.lt Tue Oct 19 20:28:07 2004 From: alga at pov.lt (Albertas Agejevas) Date: Tue Oct 19 22:26:55 2004 Subject: [EuroPython] Europython 2004 feedback results In-Reply-To: <20041018215158.GE16351@fridge.pov.lt> References: <20041015125804.GT16351@fridge.pov.lt> <1097850370.21593.3.camel@ogg.webwitches.com> <416FDF08.7060600@gmx.net> <1097851374.21593.8.camel@ogg.webwitches.com> <41742F7E.9000503@yahoo.com> <20041018215158.GE16351@fridge.pov.lt> Message-ID: <20041019182807.GA24070@fridge.pov.lt> On Tue, Oct 19, 2004 at 12:51:59AM +0300, Aiste Kesminaite wrote: > > >Weddings or no weddings, the food was simply outstanding. > > > > > The food *and* the service was outstanding. I was amazed at how well the > > service went. > > The service was outstanding, true. But as far as the food goes... > I know, that vegetarians are a minority in most social groups, > pythoneers are not an exception either. That does not mean that we don't > need food. > The amount of nutrition and taste in the food that vegetarians were > served was appaling in my opinion. I thought it was fine. Not brilliant, but definitely not appalling. Anyway, I wouln't have traded my potato for a piece of meat ;-) Albert From magnus at thinkware.se Tue Oct 19 23:17:25 2004 From: magnus at thinkware.se (Magnus Lycka) Date: Tue Oct 19 23:17:31 2004 Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?B?UmU6IFtFdXJvUHl0aG9uXSBFdXJvcHl0aG9uIDIwMDQgZmVlZGJhY2sgcmVzdWx0cw==?= Message-ID: Albertas Agejevas wrote: > On Tue, Oct 19, 2004 at 12:51:59AM +0300, Aiste Kesminaite wrote: > > The amount of nutrition and taste in the food that vegetarians were > > served was appaling in my opinion. > > I thought it was fine. Not brilliant, but definitely not appalling. > Anyway, I wouln't have traded my potato for a piece of meat ;-) I agree with Albertas. I was a bit surprised over the enthusiasm over the food, since I thought it was ok but nothing special. (I also though that the desert was ok but not outstanding, and that was the same stuff as all else had. Maybe we veggies are simply used to getting superior food? We did get better food than the others in Charleroi in 2003... :) If I remember correctly, they did serve the veggie food fairly late, so that the people around you were half finished when I got to start. But maybe I'm confusing this with some other occation. I don't understand the comment about bad veggie lunches though. Maybe the person who wrote that didn't find the veggie buff? in the left hand corner of the restaurant? It's wasn't Guide Rouge class, but after all, it's a university cantina... -- Magnus Lycka, Thinkware AB http://www.thinkware.se/ mailto:magnus@thinkware.se From jacob at strakt.com Wed Oct 20 15:38:55 2004 From: jacob at strakt.com (Jacob =?iso-8859-1?q?Hall=E9n?=) Date: Wed Oct 20 15:38:58 2004 Subject: [EuroPython] Responses from track chairs Message-ID: <200410201538.55297.jacob@strakt.com> This is the current status of responses from the track chairs. If you read this and haven't responded to my letter, feel ashamed and redeem yourself. ;-) Tutorials Jacob Not interested, can't combine with being overall responsible Social skills Bea Interested, is ready to expand the topic to more general issues Zope/Plone Paul Interested Huima No response Science Nicolas Interested Language Michael Wants to hand over to somebody else, buts seems persuadable Suggests Armin Rigo or Samuele Pedroni as replacement Refereed papers Armin No response Alex No response Lightning talks Anna No response Education Steve No response Business John Interested, plans to expand Applications Vacant due to no-show From jacob at strakt.com Wed Oct 20 15:41:27 2004 From: jacob at strakt.com (Jacob =?iso-8859-1?q?Hall=E9n?=) Date: Wed Oct 20 15:41:29 2004 Subject: [EuroPython] Meeting Thursday 21 Oct 17.00 Message-ID: <200410201541.27169.jacob@strakt.com> Sorry about sending out the call to the meeting so late. The issues to discuss at this meeting are: 1. Tracks and track chairs 2. Website design and technology I have written a specification for website design, that I will try to get out tonight. Have to run to a meeting... From bea at webwitches.com Wed Oct 20 17:20:04 2004 From: bea at webwitches.com (Beatrice Fontaine) Date: Wed Oct 20 17:14:17 2004 Subject: [EuroPython] Meeting Thursday 21 Oct 17.00 In-Reply-To: <200410201541.27169.jacob@strakt.com> References: <200410201541.27169.jacob@strakt.com> Message-ID: <1098285604.19368.235.camel@ogg.webwitches.com> On Wed, 2004-10-20 at 15:41, Jacob Hall?n wrote: > Sorry about sending out the call to the meeting so late. > > The issues to discuss at this meeting are: > > 1. Tracks and track chairs > 2. Website design and technology > > I have written a specification for website design, that I will try to get out > tonight. Have to run to a meeting... As I mentioned in the private track chair mail, I won't be available for the meeting tomorrow because I have another one locally that I had promised to attend first (and then forgot). Sorry about that. Concerning the site, I stand by what I said at the last meeting: I am willing to continue working on it if there are at least 2 other people who are ready to work on it on a regular basis too. Last time, the actual "team" was by far too small, and that was not much fun. I hope that many of the people with brilliant suggestions for the improvement/renewal/change of the site will be able and willing to attend the meeting tomorrow night. Looks like they know what to do, so it would be great to have them on board! I'll stay posted and will do my utmost best to be at the next meeting again. Regards bea -- bea@webwitches.com "My agenda is so hidden that I can't find it myself". Me. From steve at canonical.com Wed Oct 20 17:52:50 2004 From: steve at canonical.com (Steve Alexander) Date: Wed Oct 20 17:52:54 2004 Subject: [EuroPython] Responses from track chairs In-Reply-To: <200410201538.55297.jacob@strakt.com> References: <200410201538.55297.jacob@strakt.com> Message-ID: <417689D2.2040602@canonical.com> > Education > Steve > No response Someone who I'd recognise if I met him, but whose name I have completely forgotten, has expressed interest in taking on the education track for next year's conference. Whoever you are, if you're reading this, sorry that I've lost your name. Please make yourself known! -- Steve Alexander From bea at webwitches.com Wed Oct 20 07:40:21 2004 From: bea at webwitches.com (Beatrice Fontaine) Date: Wed Oct 20 19:56:39 2004 Subject: Vegetarian cuisine (was: Re: [EuroPython] Europython 2004 feedback results) In-Reply-To: <20041019182807.GA24070@fridge.pov.lt> References: <20041015125804.GT16351@fridge.pov.lt> <1097850370.21593.3.camel@ogg.webwitches.com> <416FDF08.7060600@gmx.net> <1097851374.21593.8.camel@ogg.webwitches.com> <41742F7E.9000503@yahoo.com> <20041018215158.GE16351@fridge.pov.lt> <20041019182807.GA24070@fridge.pov.lt> Message-ID: <1098250821.19368.163.camel@ogg.webwitches.com> On Tue, 2004-10-19 at 20:28, Albertas Agejevas wrote: > On Tue, Oct 19, 2004 at 12:51:59AM +0300, Aiste Kesminaite wrote: > > > >Weddings or no weddings, the food was simply outstanding. > > > > > > > The food *and* the service was outstanding. I was amazed at how well the > > > service went. > > > > The service was outstanding, true. But as far as the food goes... > > I know, that vegetarians are a minority in most social groups, > > pythoneers are not an exception either. That does not mean that we don't > > need food. > > The amount of nutrition and taste in the food that vegetarians were > > served was appaling in my opinion. > > I thought it was fine. Not brilliant, but definitely not appalling. > Anyway, I wouln't have traded my potato for a piece of meat ;-) I think it has been duly noted by all us carnivorous ones that an effort must be made to have a truly excellent vegetarian meal available at that dinner. I am a meat eater and had a wonderful and special experience. I didn't mean to personally put vegetarians at a disadvantage by harping on about that evening. I was just sitting here drooling. But then, as a foot lover, I would probably need to have a living slug served at the table to come up with the qualifier "appalling". Since I had an excellent meal, I am really sorry that the food there disappointed vegetarians that badly. First of all, we could say, for instance, that we would ALL have vegetarian food. The danger here is to forget that some people actually mean that they are vegan and didn't want the milk, fish, cheese and eggs that the chef used to make something nutritious, but they didn't mention that fact in advance. If it's vegan, I know _I_ will go hungry. I would therefore therefore suggest to come up with a few recommendations yourself. I have several chefs as friends and they all will confirm that vegetarian cooking is a whole other school (apart from our Punjabi friend who knows how to from birth...), and if you haven't gone through that, you know fairly little of how to produce a good meal without license to literally fatten things up - no matter how brilliant a cook you are. As a veggie, you know all about that, obviously. Wouldn't it be great to actually come up with a list of wants and hates and submit that as a road map? It would make life easier on the one who plans the meal, and we won't see disappointed faces. Just make sure that Albertas gets his potato :) bea -- bea@webwitches.com "My agenda is so hidden that I can't find it myself". Me. From a.p.meyer at fel.tno.nl Wed Oct 20 14:47:46 2004 From: a.p.meyer at fel.tno.nl (AP Meyer) Date: Wed Oct 20 19:57:32 2004 Subject: [EuroPython] Conference Management Software Message-ID: <41765E72.1090206@fel.tno.nl> Dear EuroPythoneers For a coming workshop I need web-based conference management software (call for papers, reviews, registration, etc.). Of course, I first think of Python/Zope/Plone-based products (open source). Unfortunately, I cannot find what I need. What do you use? thanks and kind regards Andre -- Dr. Andre P. Meyer http://home.hccnet.nl/a.meyer/ TNO FEL Command & Control and Simulation, http://www.fel.tno.nl/div2/ Delft Cooperation on Intelligent Systems, http://www.decis.nl/ -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ The disclaimer that applies to e-mail from TNO Physics and Electronics Laboratory can be found on: http://www.tno.nl/disclaimer/email.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: a.p.meyer.vcf Type: text/x-vcard Size: 419 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://mail.python.org/pipermail/europython/attachments/20041020/370c7e15/a.p.meyer.vcf From mwh at python.net Wed Oct 20 19:58:41 2004 From: mwh at python.net (Michael Hudson) Date: Wed Oct 20 19:58:42 2004 Subject: [EuroPython] Meeting Thursday 21 Oct 17.00 In-Reply-To: <200410201541.27169.jacob@strakt.com> ( =?iso-8859-1?q?Jacob_Hall=E9n's_message_of?= "Wed, 20 Oct 2004 15:41:27 +0200") References: <200410201541.27169.jacob@strakt.com> Message-ID: <2my8i1e0fi.fsf@starship.python.net> Jacob Hall?n writes: > Sorry about sending out the call to the meeting so late. > > The issues to discuss at this meeting are: > > 1. Tracks and track chairs > 2. Website design and technology > > I have written a specification for website design, that I will try to get out > tonight. Have to run to a meeting... At best, I'll be late. Sorry. Cheers, mwh -- > I'm a little confused. That's because you're Australian! So all the blood flows to your head, away from the organ most normal guys think with. -- Mark Hammond & Tim Peters, comp.lang.python From magnus at thinkware.se Wed Oct 20 21:50:43 2004 From: magnus at thinkware.se (Magnus Lycka) Date: Wed Oct 20 21:50:47 2004 Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?B?UmU6IFZlZ2V0YXJpYW4gY3Vpc2luZSAod2FzOiBSZTogW0V1cm9QeXRob25dIEV1cm9weXRob24gMjAwNCBmZWVkYmFjayByZXN1bHRzKQ==?= Message-ID: Beatrice Fontaine wrote: > But then, as a foot lover, Maybe you want pigs' feet for dinner then? :) Just because someone rejects to eat meat, it doesn't mean that they are professional vegetarian chefs, any more than people who avoid veggies as much as they can, are bound to experts on steaks etc. I'll pass this on to the food preparation professionals, and stick to software. It's certainly possible to find good vegetarian food in G?teborg. It's a matter of attitude of course, and as a seasoned vegetarian, it seems clear that regardless of their skills, some chefs seem to see "minority groups" who want a different meal as a challenge they want to handle well, and other seems to see it as an inconvenience that they try to waste as little energy on as possible. Personally I don't come to EPC for the food ;) so I don't think we should make too much of an effort to fix this. There are other things that we need to focus on. There *is* filling vegan food by the way...but I don't know if there are sufficiently good vegan chefs in G?teborg to satisfy all Pythonistas. -- Magnus Lycka, Thinkware AB http://www.thinkware.se/ mailto:magnus@thinkware.se From jacob at strakt.com Wed Oct 20 22:06:44 2004 From: jacob at strakt.com (Jacob =?iso-8859-1?q?Hall=E9n?=) Date: Wed Oct 20 22:07:00 2004 Subject: Vegetarian cuisine (was: Re: [EuroPython] Europython 2004 feedback results) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200410202206.44746.jacob@strakt.com> onsdagen den 20 oktober 2004 21.50 skrev Magnus Lycka: > Beatrice Fontaine wrote: > > But then, as a foot lover, > > Maybe you want pigs' feet for dinner then? :) > > Just because someone rejects to eat meat, it doesn't mean > that they are professional vegetarian chefs, any more than > people who avoid veggies as much as they can, are bound to > experts on steaks etc. I'll pass this on to the food > preparation professionals, and stick to software. > > It's certainly possible to find good vegetarian food in > G?teborg. It's a matter of attitude of course, and as a > seasoned vegetarian, it seems clear that regardless of their > skills, some chefs seem to see "minority groups" who want a > different meal as a challenge they want to handle well, and > other seems to see it as an inconvenience that they try to > waste as little energy on as possible. > > Personally I don't come to EPC for the food ;) so I don't think > we should make too much of an effort to fix this. There are > other things that we need to focus on. > > There *is* filling vegan food by the way...but I don't know if > there are sufficiently good vegan chefs in G?teborg to satisfy > all Pythonistas. When we booked the banquet, we stressed that there would be many vegetarians and that they should get food that was as good as for non-vegetarians. I was rather displeased when I learned form the feedback forms that vegetarian food was not up to par. This will of course have to be corrected. Jacob From jacob at strakt.com Wed Oct 20 22:17:19 2004 From: jacob at strakt.com (Jacob =?iso-8859-1?q?Hall=E9n?=) Date: Wed Oct 20 22:17:31 2004 Subject: [EuroPython] Website specification Message-ID: <200410202217.19199.jacob@strakt.com> Here are some requirement for the Europython 2005 website. Fast ==== Normal time to load a mostly static page should not exceed 3 seconds. Normal time to load a dynamic page should not exceed 6 seconds. Easy to navigate ================ An easy to navigate website of the size Europython needs has the following properties: - There is a fixed navigation bar, that is the same on all pages. Preferably, it should show all the available options at the same time, though one may have to use some sort of expanding type of solution if the alternatives are too many. If an expanding type solution is used, the ones that reveal the options on mouse-over have better affordances than the ones that require a click to expand. - All pages concerning the current conference should be reachable from the navigation bar. These should be grouped according to subject and clearly labelled. The EPC2003 navigation bar was for the most parts good. With a little more work and effort in labelling, it could be excellent. - There should only be one single link to materials not concerning the current conference on the navigation bar. This should lead to a different environment where you can study information like old conference materials and info about the Europython Society. - The front page of the site should contain a logo/picture, a welcome/introduction message, sponsor ads and a section of latest news (and the navigation bar). - A search box for searching the site is nice, but not essential. Structure ========= Main page Registration issues Registration information Registration Location About the conference venue General information about G?teborg and Sweden Getting to G?teborg Getting around the G?teborg area Accomodation Europython special accomodation Where to stay Tracks and talks Propose a talk Track overview Schedule day 1 Schedule day 2 Schedule day 3 Print your own programme Events Keynotes Pub Conference dinner Breakfast and lunches Sprints Sprint times and locations Proposed sprints Attendee wiki Other information Sponsors ======== - It looks as if the link at the bottom of each page generates quite a bit of money. We should keep it. - Apart from the front page, all sponsors should be viewable on a sponsors page, preferably with a short text together with the logo. If possible, the sponsors on the front page should be a little more prominent. This year they were totally scrolled off the screen. - A nice feature would be to show a random sponsor logo on each page except the first one. Contents ======== - For the most part, the contents of the site were very good. We should endeavour to re-use as much as we can. - We need more maps. People complained. Maps were made for the printed programme. They should be on the website as well. Website evolution ================= A conference website is very much a living thing. It goes through some quite distictive phases. Some information stays until later phases, while some goes away when the phase is over. 1. Heads up about when and where the conference takes place. 2. Display of track information and handling talk proposals. 3. Displaying talk information, displaying local information and handling registration. 4. Displaying scheduling and handling interest registration. 5. Providing talk materials and last minute information. Providing attendee communication. 6. Providing after-conference information. From the start, there should be placeholders for the pages that belong to later phases, but they should be inactive until filled with information. There should be a plan for each page in the structure. When does it get filled in and activated? Does it get modified or deactivated at a later point in time? Content management ================== While having content management - being able to edit things through the web and having some system for controlling the publishing - is nice, it is not really necessary for the management of 30 odd webpages. For registration, it is more an issue of data entry than management of web content. A suitable tool for this is not really a CMS. This leaves the tracks and talks information, where several people need to be able to enter and update data. Simple extraction and insertion of data is also essential, for automated scheduling using external tools. While a traditional CMS will do a good job, so will a tailored tool. From jacob at strakt.com Wed Oct 20 22:35:07 2004 From: jacob at strakt.com (Jacob =?iso-8859-1?q?Hall=E9n?=) Date: Wed Oct 20 22:35:19 2004 Subject: [EuroPython] Position on registration software Message-ID: <200410202235.07013.jacob@strakt.com> These are my thoughts on the software that handles registration and track/presentation management. There are 3 different aspects that I think are important. 1. Software functionality From an attendee perspective, the functionality of last years registration/presentation procedures were not too bad. I think they can be improved on, but mostly they worked decently well. From an administrators perspective, they were a nightmare. Everey modification to user data took several minutes. It took extra development to get a decent list of attendees, and even with that list things were very cumbersome. The system lacks searches and report facilities that are essential to the main attendee admin as well as the accomodation person and would be very useful to others as well. Extracting data from the system to make a programme, a list of T-shirt orders, or planning the schedule requires non-trivial programming for each new task. 2. Devloping the software There has to be a committed group of people who develop the software for the new site. While Joachim did a very good job last year, there was only one of him, and he was unable to cope with the needs. When we sent out pleas for help in the Plone community, we heard nothing back. This gives me little confidence in continuing with Plone. 3. Using the software Laura and I will be the main users of the registration software. We need to be able to trust the solution getting set up. Conclusion We have built a solution based on CAPS that we feel does what we want. If someone wants to propose something different, there should be a solid, well thought out proposal with people ready to back it with a sufficient amount of work. Jacob From bea at webwitches.com Thu Oct 21 08:15:00 2004 From: bea at webwitches.com (Beatrice Fontaine) Date: Thu Oct 21 08:09:08 2004 Subject: Vegetarian cuisine (was: Re: [EuroPython] Europython 2004 feedback results) In-Reply-To: <200410202206.44746.jacob@strakt.com> References: <200410202206.44746.jacob@strakt.com> Message-ID: <1098339299.19368.280.camel@ogg.webwitches.com> On Wed, 2004-10-20 at 22:06, Jacob Hall?n wrote: [...] > > When we booked the banquet, we stressed that there would be many vegetarians > and that they should get food that was as good as for non-vegetarians. I was > rather displeased when I learned form the feedback forms that vegetarian food > was not up to par. This will of course have to be corrected. That's what I figured, but it's great to hear :) The rest of the veggie question had better be discussed off-list then, anyhow. -- bea@webwitches.com "My agenda is so hidden that I can't find it myself". Me. From aiste at pov.lt Thu Oct 21 11:36:59 2004 From: aiste at pov.lt (Aiste Kesminaite) Date: Thu Oct 21 11:37:02 2004 Subject: Vegetarian cuisine (was: Re: [EuroPython] Europython 2004 feedback results) In-Reply-To: <1098339066.19368.275.camel@ogg.webwitches.com> References: <1098339066.19368.275.camel@ogg.webwitches.com> Message-ID: <20041021093658.GV16351@fridge.pov.lt> > On Wed, 2004-10-20 at 21:50, Magnus Lycka wrote: > > Beatrice Fontaine wrote: > > Just because someone rejects to eat meat, it doesn't mean > > that they are professional vegetarian chefs, any more than > > people who avoid veggies as much as they can, are bound to > > experts on steaks etc. I'll pass this on to the food > > preparation professionals, and stick to software. You don't have to be an expert to know what is nutritious and what is not and give some suggestions as to what you would like to be served for the next meal. That is how I understood Bea's suggestion. No one is offering you to be our chef... > because the food was good. So I really think you are barking up the > wrong tree here. I AM trying to help and Aiste and Albertas know that. Entirely true. > > Personally I don't come to EPC for the food ;) so I don't think > > we should make too much of an effort to fix this. There are > > other things that we need to focus on. > > Ah, but that is where the statistics tell me that there are a lot of > people who share my opinion that "we" should have that fabulous dinner > again. Anyway, it's about informal networking as much as about food, so > there is something for everyone. Now "we" should have the same quality > of food for everyone, too. I do not come to EP for food either, but fair is fair. If a group of people is having a dinner everyone's (more or less) food should be of a similar quality in most aspects. In this I agree with Bea and Jacob. > Well, we tried a number of veggie places over the week in GOT and some > were really very good. But I still need more than aubergines and steeped > grain to fill my belly for more than 2 hours, which is MY individual > preference. :) Bea, you haven't tried _really good_ vegan food... > As for the conference chef, I suspect it was lack of > communication, like most things, and can be corrected. That was my impression as well. I think, the problem was in expertise as much as in miscommunication, as Bea mentioned earlier - proper vegetarian cooking is a whole different experience and even if you are a wonderfull cook in a good restaurant (non veggie) it does not automatically mean, that you can prepare good veggie food. > This is just silly. When omnivores don't respond to the veggie > challenge, they are called callous, uncaring, and many other nice > things. When they try to help, they are nailed for their OBVIOUS > ignorance on the subject. I think you are overreacting slightly Bea :) Most of us know what helpful and kind person you are and there is no need to get offended if some people cannot express their opinions in less personal ways. -- Aiste Kesminaite Managing director, Programmers of Vilnius Phone: +370 6563 6462 Email: aiste@pov.lt Web: www.pov.lt From bea at webwitches.com Thu Oct 21 11:46:52 2004 From: bea at webwitches.com (Beatrice Fontaine) Date: Thu Oct 21 11:43:45 2004 Subject: Vegetarian cuisine (was: Re: [EuroPython] Europython 2004 feedback results) In-Reply-To: <20041021093658.GV16351@fridge.pov.lt> References: <1098339066.19368.275.camel@ogg.webwitches.com> <20041021093658.GV16351@fridge.pov.lt> Message-ID: <1098352012.2572.11.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Thu, 2004-10-21 at 11:36, Aiste Kesminaite wrote: [...] > > I think you are overreacting slightly Bea :) > Most of us know what helpful and kind person you are and there is no need > to get offended if some people cannot express their opinions in less > personal ways. Well I _know_ that I was miffed, that's why I was trying to keep it off the list :) I stand corrected and will try to be less touchy in the future. Anyhow, about that vegan food... I promise that I will give it a try in G?teborg and then you can count the time until I grab the next Mars bar :) Cheers bea -- Beatrice Fontaine From jeremiah.foster at gmail.com Thu Oct 21 12:11:43 2004 From: jeremiah.foster at gmail.com (Jeremiah Foster) Date: Thu Oct 21 12:11:46 2004 Subject: [EuroPython] Web development Message-ID: <5bb6e425041021031137104641@mail.gmail.com> Hey there, Just want to re-introduce myself to the list, my name is Jeremiah and I attended the Europython conference this summer in G?teborg. I am a web developer who mostly works with Perl but have done some Python development and am very interested in furthering my Python knowledge. I am happy to help out with the web site for Europython. I helped a little before the conference this year mostly providing info about lovely Gothenburg. I am no Plone expert but I am happy to dive in and roll up my sleeves and try to help. Can someone post some more details about the meeting today? Is it on IRC? Will there be minutes because I have a meeting at 16:00 that I cannot miss so I will likely not be able to attend the meeting today. Congratulations to Strakt for their new customer, I look forward to reading more about Strakt's business success. Regards, Jeremiah From jeremiah.foster at gmail.com Thu Oct 21 12:15:55 2004 From: jeremiah.foster at gmail.com (Jeremiah Foster) Date: Thu Oct 21 12:15:56 2004 Subject: [EuroPython] Responses from track chairs In-Reply-To: <200410201538.55297.jacob@strakt.com> References: <200410201538.55297.jacob@strakt.com> Message-ID: <5bb6e42504102103151ffbf04a@mail.gmail.com> I would like to float a web track to see if there is interest. If there is, and I think things liike CherryPy show that there is some interest, then I am willing to chair it if the need exists. Jeremiah On Wed, 20 Oct 2004 15:38:55 +0200, Jacob Hall?n wrote: > This is the current status of responses from the track chairs. If you read > this and haven't responded to my letter, feel ashamed and redeem > yourself. ;-) > > Tutorials > Jacob > Not interested, can't combine with being overall responsible > > Social skills > Bea > Interested, is ready to expand the topic to more general issues > > Zope/Plone > Paul > Interested > Huima > No response > > Science > Nicolas > Interested > > Language > Michael > Wants to hand over to somebody else, buts seems persuadable > Suggests Armin Rigo or Samuele Pedroni as replacement > > Refereed papers > Armin > No response > Alex > No response > > Lightning talks > Anna > No response > > Education > Steve > No response > > Business > John > Interested, plans to expand > > Applications > Vacant due to no-show > > _______________________________________________ > EuroPython mailing list > EuroPython@python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/europython > From jacob at strakt.com Thu Oct 21 16:11:56 2004 From: jacob at strakt.com (Jacob =?iso-8859-1?q?Hall=E9n?=) Date: Thu Oct 21 16:12:00 2004 Subject: [EuroPython] Responses from track chairs [update] Message-ID: <200410211611.56539.jacob@strakt.com> This is the current status of responses from the track chairs. There were 2 more responses from the track chairs. Tutorials Jacob Not interested, can't combine with being overall responsible Social skills Bea Interested, is ready to expand the topic to more general issues Zope/Plone Paul Interested Huima No response Science Nicolas Interested Language Michael Wants to hand over to somebody else, buts seems persuadable Suggests Armin Rigo or Samuele Pedroni as replacement Refereed papers Armin No response Alex No response Lightning talks Anna Interested Education Steve Looking for a replacement, personal willingness unknown Business John Interested, plans to expand Applications Vacant due to no-show From jacob at strakt.com Thu Oct 21 16:21:59 2004 From: jacob at strakt.com (Jacob =?iso-8859-1?q?Hall=E9n?=) Date: Thu Oct 21 16:22:02 2004 Subject: [EuroPython] Thoughts on track chairing Message-ID: <200410211621.59906.jacob@strakt.com> Vacancies: Tutorials Applications Potential vacancies: Education Frameworks Language Jeremiah Foster wants to do a web track. Personally, I think this is part of the framework track. Perhaps we can persuade him to take over the frameworks track. Harald Armin Massa wants to do a Python Neopythe track. Perhaps we can ask him to do that as part of the Tutorials track. A slightly unrelated thought is about the refereed paper track. Since we have some money at the bottom of the coffers, we could reserve a sum for subdidising speaker travel. Last year we subsidised one speaker, to great effect. There was quite a bit of risk involved in this, since our budget balanced only 3 days before the conference started. This year we can make more firm promises. Jacob From js at aixtraware.de Thu Oct 21 09:02:19 2004 From: js at aixtraware.de (Joachim Schmitz) Date: Thu Oct 21 16:34:01 2004 Subject: [EuroPython] Conference Management Software In-Reply-To: <41765E72.1090206@fel.tno.nl> References: <41765E72.1090206@fel.tno.nl> Message-ID: <41775EFB.3040500@aixtraware.de> Hi Andre, I did the conferencing software for EuroPython, and I am currently working on repackaging and improving it. In what timeframe do you need it ? AP Meyer schrieb: > Dear EuroPythoneers > > For a coming workshop I need web-based conference management software > (call for papers, reviews, registration, etc.). > Of course, I first think of Python/Zope/Plone-based products (open > source). Unfortunately, I cannot find what I need. What do you use? > > thanks and kind regards > Andre > > _______________________________________________ > EuroPython mailing list > EuroPython@python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/europython -- Mit freundlichen Gr??en Joachim Schmitz ...................................................................... AixtraWare eK ..Joachim Schmitz ..www.aixtraware.de ..t: +49-2464-8851 H?sgenstr. 33a .....d-52457 Aldenhoven .............f: +49-2464-905163 From lac at strakt.com Thu Oct 21 14:08:46 2004 From: lac at strakt.com (Laura Creighton) Date: Thu Oct 21 16:34:29 2004 Subject: [EuroPython] Web development In-Reply-To: Message from Jeremiah Foster of "Thu, 21 Oct 2004 12:11:43 +0200." <5bb6e425041021031137104641@mail.gmail.com> References: <5bb6e425041021031137104641@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <200410211208.i9LC8k7M031103@ratthing-b246.strakt.com> irc.freenode.net #europython. Kl. 18:30 tror jag men jag ?r inte saker p? det. (And if you aren't the person I remember who speaks Swedish, ooops. I think it is at 18:30 but am not certain. There are advantages to always having irc up ...) Laura From jacob at strakt.com Thu Oct 21 18:49:06 2004 From: jacob at strakt.com (Jacob =?iso-8859-1?q?Hall=E9n?=) Date: Thu Oct 21 18:49:09 2004 Subject: [EuroPython] Meeting summaries Message-ID: <200410211849.06218.jacob@strakt.com> Summary from the meeting on 7 October - We decided to hold Europython 2005 at Chalmers in G?teborg, Sweden in the week of 27 June - 1 July 2005. - Jacob was to send out an inquiry to all track chairs of last conference, concerning their interest in running their tracks again. After we have the results of this, we will go out with a broader invitation to participate in the EPC organisation. - Jacob will draft a requirements specification for the website. - Next meeting was set to Thursday 21 October at 17.00. Summary of the meeting on 21 October - The track chair situation was reviewed We have some vacancies, that need to get filled, and we hope to get new people involved in arraging things. Jacob will send out an invitation to volunteer by email to all of last years participants and to the usual channels. - Web issues were discussed Nuxeo (Stefane Fermigier et al) and Jean Marc Orliaguet are willing to redesign the website using CPSSkins, CPS3 and other 3-letter acronyms. John Pinner volunteered some web development effort from Clocksoft company. Bea has volunteered to do web work, under the condition that there were at lest 3 people in the team. This condition is now fulfilled. Joachim has also been interetsed in contributing, though at a lower level than last year. The static part of the website should be done according to the web specification and should be ready for demonstration with last years content by Christmas. Registration will be done using CAPSconference. How to handle tracks and talks was postponed until later, since different people need to learn more about the possibilities of CPS and CAPS respectively. A demonstration site of CAPS will be set up. - Next meeting was set to Thursday 4 November at 17.00. From tom at aragne.com Thu Oct 21 19:34:50 2004 From: tom at aragne.com (tom) Date: Thu Oct 21 19:34:52 2004 Subject: [EuroPython] Meeting summaries References: <200410211849.06218.jacob@strakt.com> Message-ID: <007f01c4b794$44ff2070$807ba8c0@simkin> - Web issues were discussed Nuxeo (Stefane Fermigier et al) and Jean Marc Orliaguet are willing to redesign the website using CPSSkins, CPS3 and other 3-letter acronyms. [Tom:] Interesting John Pinner volunteered some web development effort from Clocksoft company. Bea has volunteered to do web work, under the condition that there were at lest 3 people in the team. This condition is now fulfilled. Joachim has also been interetsed in contributing, though at a lower level than last year. [Tom:] I'm interested in helping out, but not in the near future (for obvious reasons), but I can still handle some other web thingies, see below. The static part of the website should be done according to the web specification and should be ready for demonstration with last years content by Christmas. [Tom:] I volunteer for adding content like interviews, hot news topics, updating of pages etc. Registration will be done using CAPSconference. How to handle tracks and talks was postponed until later, since different people need to learn more about the possibilities of CPS and CAPS respectively. A demonstration site of CAPS will be set up. - Next meeting was set to Thursday 4 November at 17.00. _______________________________________________ EuroPython mailing list EuroPython@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/europython From jeremiah.foster at gmail.com Sat Oct 23 19:33:55 2004 From: jeremiah.foster at gmail.com (Jeremiah Foster) Date: Sat Oct 23 19:34:01 2004 Subject: [EuroPython] Thoughts on track chairing In-Reply-To: <200410211621.59906.jacob@strakt.com> References: <200410211621.59906.jacob@strakt.com> Message-ID: <5bb6e425041023103358cf1b32@mail.gmail.com> On Thu, 21 Oct 2004 16:21:59 +0200, Jacob Hall?n wrote: > Vacancies: > Tutorials > Applications > > Potential vacancies: > Education > Frameworks > Language > > Jeremiah Foster wants to do a web track. Personally, I think this is part of > the framework track. Perhaps we can persuade him to take over the frameworks > track. If there is more information regarding the framework track I can see if I have the competency and capacity to chair it. I will go to the web site to see if there is more information about the track. > A slightly unrelated thought is about the refereed paper track. Since we have > some money at the bottom of the coffers, we could reserve a sum for > subdidising speaker travel. Last year we subsidised one speaker, to great > effect. There was quite a bit of risk involved in this, since our budget > balanced only 3 days before the conference started. This year we can make > more firm promises. Everyone I spoke with loved the Shuttleworth talk. If we can do something like that again I am sure it would be well received, it seems like a good use of the money to me. Jeremiah Foster From steve at canonical.com Sun Oct 24 12:53:46 2004 From: steve at canonical.com (Steve Alexander) Date: Sun Oct 24 12:53:55 2004 Subject: [EuroPython] Keynote speakers [was Thoughts on track chairing] In-Reply-To: <5bb6e425041023103358cf1b32@mail.gmail.com> References: <200410211621.59906.jacob@strakt.com> <5bb6e425041023103358cf1b32@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <417B89BA.60604@canonical.com> > Everyone I spoke with loved the Shuttleworth talk. If we can do > something like that again I am sure it would be well received, it > seems like a good use of the money to me. I'd really like to see a keynote by Adele Goldberg. She is one of the inventors of Smalltalk, and has recently been using Python and Zope. At the O'Reilly Open Source Software Convention in 2003, she gave a talk entitled "2002: A Zope Odyssey". -- Steve Alexander