[EuroPython] EP 2004 decision rather quickly?

[Martijn Faassen]

Denis wrote:
> Le Thu, Jul 03, 2003 at 11:59:26PM +0200, Martijn Faassen pianota:
> > Martijn Faassen wrote:
> > > Just a comment, but I thought we're deciding rather *rapidly* on Eu=
roPython
> > > 2004...=20
> >=20
> > [...] Anyway, I just wanted to express my displeasure in stronger
> > wording.
> > [...]
> > This really really sucks.
>=20
> I shouldn't have read my mails just before to go to sleep... now, I fee=
l
> I have to answer as soon as possible. I'm tired and the poor English
> language will suffer even more than usually.
>=20
> We had a lot of discussions about this during the conference. We, i.e.
> Tom and me, were hesitating when people were asking us to do it again i=
n
> Charleroi (while EuroPython is still maturing). The advices were almost
> always the same : "Do it again excepted if you don't want to do it=20
> again".

Odd, nobody seemed to bring up the topic to me. All I know about it
was when Tim Couper did the informal poll and two alternate locations
had apparently come up.

> I even asked Guido's advice (after all, he is the benevolent dictator).
> He used the words : "Don't change a winning team...".

Guido as far as I'm aware has nothing to do with our conference organizat=
ion.
I thought *I* was part of the team, but nobody seem to have inquired
after my opinion.

> So, we asked for a few nights reflexion. And my thought was that if we
> work well enough, it will be the last year we can hold EPC in Charleroi.
> We will soon saturate the CEME and the hotel possibilities in that smal=
l
> town. I hesitated to use the word 'apotheosis' because I feel that 2004
> could be a last great success in Charleroi, and then EPC will need a
> bigger welcoming town.

We've already had two opportunities in Charleroi. Other locales have had
zero opportunities, and this decision seems to force this for 2004 as wel=
l.

> I took the decision to announce it because two year experiences shows
> the same pattern :
> 1. long silence and inaction
> 2. long discussion threads when decisions begin to be declared
> 3. a big frightening silence (yes it's frightening when you're taking
>    the financial responsability)
> 4. a frenetic run to achieve something rather honourable.

I recall a certain #europython IRC channel where a bunch of us hung
out for *months* almost daily. I also recall I had to go through Tom
to barely get a message out of you. I recall a certain=20
issue tracker which to my knowledge was not actively used by you, but by =
which
we tried to manage matters.

If you'd like to hear more noise in this 'big frightening silence' all yo=
u
had to do is actually join the irc channel or participate in the issue=20
tracker and we'd have been happy to talk to you.

> I will propose you all to have a look at your archives. Here is what I
> was asking on the 19/11/2002 :
>=20
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------=
-
> Subject: [EuroPython] Report 2002 - proposal 2003 - 2004
> From: Denis Fr=E8re <denis@aragne.com>
> To: EuroPython main <europython@python.org>
> Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 04:50:44 +0100
>=20
> [...]
>=20
> For the rest, I would like to propose something : the one who wants to
> organize the EPC 2004 should work very tightly with us on the 2003
> edition so that the relay will be soft.
>=20
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------=
-

Did any call go out to the public about participating in 2004?=20
Note that at least Laura Creighton was there in many of our IRC
sessions, and she's in Gotenburg. Perhaps she missed this single message
in november of 2002. :)

> There are two main parts in the conference : the 'theoretical' one
> (programs) and the 'practical' one (real world tasks).
>=20
> For the first part, track chairmen did a good job : I didn't stick my
> nose in the program (though I sometimes think I should do).=20
> But for the second part, no local team candidate showed up. So, I don't
> quite understand why there should be any last minute turnaround.

With this kind of communication I'm not surprised no one took action!
If you want to recruit another team you'd better make some actual noise
about it. I had not the faintest idea that this meant that then the whole
organization would default to Charleroi again. Nobody announced this
to my knowledge. If you had been clear about this perhaps matters would
have been different, but one email is frequently not enough to reach peop=
le.

> I would like to conclude for today and go to sleep :
>=20
> I don't want to fight against my friends (and will it or not, Martijn, =
I
> count you among them).=20
> I just want to fight to make Python "10 times bigger" (TM Paul Everitt)
>=20
> The biggest obstacle in reaching our goal with both first EPC editions
> was that we started far too late. If we don't start now, it will be too
> late again in 2004.

This incredible sense of urgency displayed less than a *week* after the
conference ended is misplaced. It's fine to plan ahead of time, but=20
this doesn't mean we should throw all deliberation or openness of process
out of the window.

> I don't want to loose our precious time for 2004 by starting now a call
> for candidates, discuss the candidatures, set up a pool, etc.

Again, this incredible sense of urgency is misplaced and cannot be used
as an excuse.

> But I
> would be glad to do such a thing for 2005. For me, candidates should no=
t
> only declare themselves, but work hard on one year edition if they are
> volunteering for the next one.

This notification came too late. You can't seriously claim that one=20
minimal message in November about this is sufficient to inform people.
This can not now be a reason to force a 2004 decision.

> So, again, I propose to candidates for 2005 to declare themselves *now*=
,

No, candidates for 2004 should declare themselves. In fact, I thought
two candidates had already declared themselves. Again a rather insane
sense of urgency is displayed, asking that candiates for *2005* declare
themselves now, five minutes after the conference ended, in 2003. This is=
 not=20
the olympic games.=20

> to build a candidature file, and to earn the decision in showing us how
> motivated they are : there is plenty of 'real world tasks' that can be
> accomplished from anywhere in the world, no need to be in the local tea=
m
> for most of these.

> If you show me that the majority of people who did work on EPC 2002 and
> 2003 (I say 'work', not 'talk') reject this proposal, I'm ready to drop
> the baby right now.

The thing at issue is not the 2005 and transition proposal. The thing
at issue is the unilateral action concerning 2004. You now lay on *me*
the burden to find people who are opposed to this, while *you* took the
unilateral action. It should have been *your* burden to make sure this
was discussed openly, as you made this decision and forced it on us.
It is now my responsibility to protest loudly.

[telling me to hurry]

This is misplaced urgency; I'm supposed to hurry as *you* think you have =
to act=20
right now?

I think you should *definitely* cool down after this conference for a whi=
le,
as you're still caught up in the urgency of the conference organization
after it already ended. Give it a while to gain some perspective, please?

Regards,

Martijn