[Edu-sig] The fate of raw_input() in Python 3000

[kirby urner]

On 9/16/06, Arthur <ajsiegel at optonline.net> wrote:

> I am trying to say that some integration of algorithmics into required
> math education is eminently sensible.

As stated, that's too watered down to make a difference I should
think.  Of course math education centers around algorithmics to some
degree, but does that entail any use of a programming language that
executes electronically?

The word Algorithm comes from an old Iraqi word, the name of this guy
from Baghdad.  Europe was still in a dark age, with the Church
monopolizing computation, when knowledge of simple algorithms that'd
let you run a business starting percolating in from the Islamic world.
 A Renaissance ensued, reaching a high point in Italy at the
universities in Bologna, where faculty served at the whim of the
students (i.e. student unions had hire and fire capability).

To this day, we teach algorithms in math class.  But have we said
anything about computers yet?  No.

So your position, as stated above, is not honed enough to advertise
anything beyond the status quo.

I think John Zelle asked a good question:  why should CS be its "own
door" into mathemtics, i.e. why pander to other disciplines and make
them king?  I like his attitude.

> Among other things is a statement
> that computer programming - in some sense of the word - *is* for
> everyone.  Despite all my silliness and "freewheeling intelligence"
> there being so much noise around these issues - I try to make sure any
> position I might try to advocate passes some basic test against common
> sense.  I am satisfied this position does.

I'm satisfied that it does to.  But this position made a lot of sense
several decades ago (nothing new in your view) and *still* most kids
get little if any exposure to computer programming *except* through
the CS door in college.

Whereas I think CS has a right to develop its own curriculum, I don't
think ordinary K-12 math teachers should have been able to strangle
computing in the cradle so effectively, without a fight.  I wish CS
people wouldn't just sit back and say "that's not my problem, I won't
see them until college anyway."  By then, it's already too late for so
many.  So many have been turned off already, by how boring and stupid,
not to mention difficult, their math classes seemed (with CS not even
an option).

We're in another dark age.  I have similar hopes that Islam will again
come to the rescue, even Baghdad specifically, which we've nicknamed
Algebra City ("we" the gnu math teachers).

 > And because I am satisfied it does, I don't feel the need for banners of
> any kind, for armies or - I would have thought - for confrontations.
>

So for you, just having a sensible position is the end of it, hey?

Like, "the USA, IF using computer-controlled voting, THEN should have
the source code be public and the process transparent."  A sensible
position no?  So there's no fight shaping up, no battle lines to be
drawn?

I make sense, so now I get to go home and take bath and watch TV?

> So I have always been confused why such an idea would meet with *any*
> resistance on a list such as this.  It has from day one.  Which has
> always been a clue to me that I had in some sense entered Chinatown, in
> arriving here.

I'm one of the very few on this list with a history of teaching
pre-college age students full time for a living (which is not how I'm
living today -- but I still work with the K-12ers, not just the
13-16ers (meaning 4 years after high school)).

You also seem to shy away from focusing on children, just want to make
sure the Disneys stay out of it somehow.

The "resistance" on this list I think has mostly to do with the "not
my area of expertise" syndrome i.e. "I want to have expert status in
my field, and one way I get that is by deferring to experts in *other*
fields -- the golden rule."

People who don't properly defer to experts, when on expert turf, are
considered arrogant.  "You must take your hat off in the presence of
kings" is how no one says it anymore, but many still mean it through
various social cues.

> No - it ain't the Media Lab.
>
> It is modest.  It is unconnected with Revelation, New Ages, and Second
> Comings. It brings us to no new dimensions.  It actually brings no new
> great amount of stature to the geeks of the world, or to the software
> industry.
>
> It must be on the right track.
>
> Art

It wsa "on the right track" thirty years ago when people like Alan Kay
first started taking this position.  You've apparently added nothing,
and now can't understand why anyone would be committing combat troops
to the arena, since for you "making sense" is the end of the game,
rather than its beginning.

Kirby