[Edu-sig] The fate of raw_input() in Python 3000

[Toby Donaldson]

> Removing input() FORCES people to have to address import, streams, dot notation,
> functions, and strings.

How does using the input function avoid the use of functions? :-)

Keep in mind that most students have no problem *using* unexplained
features if there is a good reason to use them. For instance, most
don't freak out because we don't actually tell them how "print" or "+"
works.

> The whole point of keeping input() is to give the teachers a choice to do
> interesting things without introducing (in their mind) unnecessary topics
> or syntax.

To be honest, even though input() doesn't really matter to me, I find
the arguments against it stronger than those for it. I think your
letter needs strong arguments for keeping input. I think two points
win the day:

  - it does not appear to be used by as many teachers as raw_input
  - it is trivial to simulate if you have raw_input

> Personally, I have to address import fairly early for other reasons, and
> have never really used input(). But I don't want to make John Zelle teach
> the way that I do.

I think it is okay, however, for a language to make questionable
programming practices harder to use. It seems like a good way to
prevent errors for everyone who uses the language.

> Java gives us no choice at all. Talk about "there's one way to do it." You
> must deal with too much stuff to make the computer do something, anything.

Actually, Java has many ways to do most things ... for example,
reading input can be done with the Scanner class, or various other
combinations of IO classes.

If what you mean is that Java requires the use of a lot of syntax for
simple programs, then I agree. But in my experience in teaching Java,
I think that problem is vastly over-stated by most people who use that
argument. It is an annoyance of Java to be sure, but most students are
able to use things before they completely understand them.

Toby
-- 
Dr. Toby Donaldson
School of Computing Science
Simon Fraser University (Surrey)