[Edu-sig] Version 0.2.03 of PataPata released (adds Jython/Swing support)

[kirby urner]

On 8/8/06, Paul D. Fernhout <pdfernhout at kurtz-fernhout.com> wrote:

> That sounds about right. But to be clear by "killing smalltalk" he doesn't
> mean Smalltalk is worse than any other language, just that he wants
> something even better.

Yes.

And thanks for the Blue vs. Pink Plane jargon, which I hadn't tuned in
(so outside of being inside the Smalltalk community I am, no kidding).

> Now this is not to say any specific camp is right or wrong -- just to
> point out the difference in hopes, dreams, fears, and so on by various
> groups. The thing about lists and projects is they often become
> self-selecting -- people come to them, see the main line of philosophy or
> effort is in a different direction, and go onto other lists.

Right.

And I'm wanting there to be fruitful cross-language-community
collaboration at what I call (and you needn't) the 'gnu math' level,
which is my Blue Plane (except maybe it's a hexapent, and red &
green).

Python has a reputation for friendliness, I think born of native
confidance that this is a very good language.  Nothing to defend
really, so let's be friends.

And with that out of the way, how might we collaborate?

Doesn't have to be about tweaking Python.  Could be about how to use
Python in schools, in homes, in whatever educational setting.

Because the Blue Plane isn't about changing Python's innards,
potentially (it'll likely move from system language to system language
-- whatever's fast and adds cool capabilities).

Let's just agree it's about the big picture curriculum map, lots of
languages already in play, lots of worthwhile threads to explore and
lots of pitfalls.

Trying to fight some Smalltalk versus Python battle would be a
pitfall, a stupid waste of time.  So far, I haven't experienced it
happening, so I think we're OK.  Kay's focus on the $100 laptop is
entirely consistent with such as Ubuntu, wherein Python comes bundled,
and whereon Squeakland runs if it wants to.

> Ten plus years is a long time to stick with any one project. And sounds
> like, at the very least, Guido must be pretty jaded with "Monty Python"
> jokes by now. :-) So what is the "Pink Plane" for Python? Some interaction
> of Guido and the (self-selecting) community will define that.
>

There's been a Pink Plane for a long time, which I'd call the PEP
plane, and the measured steps between versions.  Python advances, but
isn't in need of an overhaul.  If there's an overhaul happening, its
in the system language rewrites:  Java's and C#'s.

Guido has a longstanding interest in CP4E, and this could occupy him
as BDFL full time pretty much.  How will Python Nation help people
grow in their powers over technology, the tools of our time?  How
might we be effective as catalysts for positive gains?  These are
serious and important questions, yet need have nothing to do with
tweaking the syntax.

> Anyway, with PataPata so far I have tried to stick with just adding a
> library to Python, although now I do use a metaclass function (inspired by
> suggestions on this list from Ian). Prothon shows the difficulties of
> mucking with the Python syntax.
>

I say don't muck with it.  It's already a winning formula.

> Still, I think you are right that I am using Python in a way that is
> somewhat at odds with the main paradigm of Python development (class based
> vs. prototype, emphasizing functions versus properties). Will that lead to
> reconciliation or divergence? I'm not sure, but I do know this -- one the
> big issues that Guido must wrestle with as a language designer with Python
> are that its fundamental syntax is not extendable in a way that
> Smalltalk's can be.  We already see that with various additions related to
> collection iteration (Python needs PEPS and hacking and committees for
> things that are literally just one method to write in Smalltalk). And
> unlike using Forth or making Lisp macros, Smalltalk-style language
> extensions (e.g. making one up: "inject:into:except:limit:") are fairly
> easy to understand and consistently use and debug.
>

Python will never be Smalltalk.  People really should keep studying
Smalltalk, a dead language, and a good one.  But maybe not if they're
not dead language specialist (which many of us are).

> I think I am now exploring the limitations related to properties and
> prototypes in Python-as-it-is. So, will Python4000 (not 3000!) have such
> ideas in it? Who knows. Should I try to put them there -- probably not for
> me (too much politics)! But, Python's worth playing with in any case, even
> just to prototype some ideas in a way that is accessible to a lot of
> people. So, most PataPata work so far then isn't education about Python,
> but it is education (including self-education) with Python. :-)
>
> --Paul Fernhout

I think there's opportunity cost in making your interface with the
Python Community be just PataPata.  I say keep that sandcastle, AND
try other approaches in parallel.  Because I think there's a Blue
Plane you haven't touched yet, and would enjoy playing on.  We
wouldn't be on opposite sides, more the way we are now, as I'm
programmed to somewhat automatically defend Python syntax.  There's
just nothing wrong with it.

Kirby