From ziggy@panix.com Tue Jul 16 23:18:57 2002 From: ziggy@panix.com (Adam Turoff) Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2002 18:18:57 -0400 Subject: [Conferences-discuss] Update: YAPyC 2003 (Washington, DC) Message-ID: <20020716221857.GC17439@panix.com> It's a little difficult to solve a multivariate equation when there all the variables are unknowns. :-) Here are some preliminary numbers on what a YAPyC might look like in Washington DC next winter. First some assumptions: - ~300 attendees - 3 days - 3 tracks - breakfast, lunch and coffee breaks included I've talked to the facilities folks at George Washington University in DC. The numbers below are based on YAS/PSF (as an external entity) renting space at GWU for this event. The limiting factor at an event like this is the size of the main auditorium. There'll be a couple of events every day where everyone is in the same track (keynotes, lightning talks, etc.). The main theater we're looking at holds 435, and costs $2000/day. A/V equipment is extra. Breakout rooms range around $525/day, and hold 30-90 people. Catering per person is roughly $20/person/day. This is always the most expensive cost in any event, and includes continental breakfasts, two coffee breaks and lunch. (There's a more expensive option for a hot buffet or a full formal lunch, which might be preferred for a wintertime event). All told, and the cost is currently hovering around $85/90 per person. This is a first approximation for a three-track, three day event. Some of the breakout rooms hold about thirty; others hold about ninety. Pushing out to four days, or four tracks will obviously increase costs. Keeping the price per person below $100 would be nice, but $125/person might be more reasonable. Prices could come down if we can book this as an GW-internal event. There are other costs that have yet to be tallied: proceedings (print, CD or both); network connectivity, signs, badges, etc. Remember that this is a YAPC-model for a conference. All the organization is done by volunteers (not a for-profit company), and the conference is run by volunteers, rather than paid staff. Scheduling YAPyC would be contingent on a number of factors, not the least of which would be the availability of each of the designated rooms for a 3-day span. Z. From gward@python.net Wed Jul 17 01:06:19 2002 From: gward@python.net (Greg Ward) Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2002 20:06:19 -0400 Subject: [Conferences-discuss] Update: YAPyC 2003 (Washington, DC) In-Reply-To: <20020716221857.GC17439@panix.com> References: <20020716221857.GC17439@panix.com> Message-ID: <20020717000619.GA13741@cthulhu.gerg.ca> On 16 July 2002, Adam Turoff said: > It's a little difficult to solve a multivariate equation when there all > the variables are unknowns. :-) But it looks like you've done a great job so far -- thank you! > There are other costs that have yet to be tallied: proceedings > (print, CD or both); network connectivity, signs, badges, etc. IMHO proceedings should be optional, and the cost should be extra. The canonical place for proceedings should be on the web. Attendees should pick what they want (print, CD, both, or neither) when they register. I realize there's a chicken/egg problem with estimating costs before you know how many people want print proceedings (which I imagine are the most expensive). Maybe we could say print proceedings will cost no more than $X, based on a tiny print run -- and hopefully people will be pleasantly surprised. If X is really high, though, that won't work. It shouldn't need saying, but I am totally opposed to expensive, unnecessary, and wasteful swag: I have enough tote bags already. I assume that kind of junk as not part of YAP(y)C conferences? Greg -- Greg Ward - Unix nerd gward@python.net http://starship.python.net/~gward/ I'd rather have a bottle in front of me than have to have a frontal lobotomy. From aahz@pythoncraft.com Wed Jul 17 01:17:05 2002 From: aahz@pythoncraft.com (Aahz) Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2002 20:17:05 -0400 Subject: [Conferences-discuss] Update: YAPyC 2003 (Washington, DC) In-Reply-To: <20020716221857.GC17439@panix.com> References: <20020716221857.GC17439@panix.com> Message-ID: <20020717001705.GA21408@panix.com> On Tue, Jul 16, 2002, Adam Turoff wrote: > > Here are some preliminary numbers on what a YAPyC might look like > in Washington DC next winter. First some assumptions: > - ~300 attendees > - 3 days > - 3 tracks > - breakfast, lunch and coffee breaks included > > [...] > > Keeping the price per person below $100 would be nice, but $125/person > might be more reasonable. Prices could come down if we can book this > as an GW-internal event. I'd suggest budgeting to break even if you get only 200 people. I also suggest a large increase in reg fees close to the conference. -- Aahz (aahz@pythoncraft.com) <*> http://www.pythoncraft.com/ Project Vote Smart: http://www.vote-smart.org/ From ziggy@panix.com Wed Jul 17 04:10:44 2002 From: ziggy@panix.com (Adam Turoff) Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2002 23:10:44 -0400 Subject: [Conferences-discuss] Update: YAPyC 2003 (Washington, DC) In-Reply-To: <20020717000619.GA13741@cthulhu.gerg.ca> References: <20020716221857.GC17439@panix.com> <20020717000619.GA13741@cthulhu.gerg.ca> Message-ID: <20020717031044.GB27727@panix.com> On Tue, Jul 16, 2002 at 08:06:19PM -0400, Greg Ward wrote: > On 16 July 2002, Adam Turoff said: > > It's a little difficult to solve a multivariate equation when there all > > the variables are unknowns. :-) > > But it looks like you've done a great job so far -- thank you! I want to emphasize that I punted on some important issues, and want to higlight them again: - 3-day event - 3-4 concurrent tracks - 300 people - $100/person budget [ballpark] I'm guessing that this would work for a Python conference. I've never been to the Foretec events, and I don't know what the expectations would be for a community run Python conference. I'm also ignoring some of the more substantive issues: conference theme, target audience, target tracks, general scheduling (mid-winter seems OK so far), and overall expectations for this event. I really don't have a voice for any of these issues, and the best I can do here is describe what's been done at four North American YAPC events to date. > It shouldn't need saying, but I am totally opposed to expensive, > unnecessary, and wasteful swag: I have enough tote bags already. I > assume that kind of junk as not part of YAP(y)C conferences? Tote bags do tend to be useful (especially if there's a conference schedule, maps, and mass of other printed materials for each attendee). This has been a non-issue, because O'Reilly has donated totebags before out of their leftover stock. T-shirts would be a more critical issue. ;-) Z. From mwh@python.net Wed Jul 17 09:58:27 2002 From: mwh@python.net (Michael Hudson) Date: 17 Jul 2002 09:58:27 +0100 Subject: [Conferences-discuss] Update: YAPyC 2003 (Washington, DC) In-Reply-To: Adam Turoff's message of "Tue, 16 Jul 2002 23:10:44 -0400" References: <20020716221857.GC17439@panix.com> <20020717000619.GA13741@cthulhu.gerg.ca> <20020717031044.GB27727@panix.com> Message-ID: <2mn0sqzq6k.fsf@starship.python.net> Adam Turoff writes: > On Tue, Jul 16, 2002 at 08:06:19PM -0400, Greg Ward wrote: > > On 16 July 2002, Adam Turoff said: > > > It's a little difficult to solve a multivariate equation when there all > > > the variables are unknowns. :-) > > > > But it looks like you've done a great job so far -- thank you! > > I want to emphasize that I punted on some important issues, and > want to higlight them again: > - 3-day event > - 3-4 concurrent tracks > - 300 people > - $100/person budget [ballpark] This all sounds much like EuroPython. > I'm guessing that this would work for a Python conference. I've > never been to the Foretec events, Me neither. > and I don't know what the expectations would be for a community run > Python conference. Well, people seemed happy enough with EuroPython. > I'm also ignoring some of the more substantive issues: conference > theme, target audience, target tracks, general scheduling (mid-winter > seems OK so far), and overall expectations for this event. I really > don't have a voice for any of these issues, and the best I can do here > is describe what's been done at four North American YAPC events to date. Cheap-ish accomodation could be an issue (though given that I would be coming from Europe, flights are probably going to dominate...). Cheers, M. -- I'm a keen cyclist and I stop at red lights. Those who don't need hitting with a great big slapping machine. -- Colin Davidson, cam.misc From iron@mso.oz.net Wed Jul 17 10:45:09 2002 From: iron@mso.oz.net (Mike Orr) Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 02:45:09 -0700 Subject: [Conferences-discuss] Update: YAPyC 2003 (Washington, DC) In-Reply-To: <20020717000619.GA13741@cthulhu.gerg.ca> References: <20020716221857.GC17439@panix.com> <20020717000619.GA13741@cthulhu.gerg.ca> Message-ID: <20020717094509.GE17314@mso.oz.net> On Tue, Jul 16, 2002 at 08:06:19PM -0400, Greg Ward wrote: > It shouldn't need saying, but I am totally opposed to expensive, > unnecessary, and wasteful swag: I have enough tote bags already. I I second making material items an optional extra. Both because of the cost and the environmental impact. You can go through the racks of any thrift store and wonder how many of the T-shirts were worn once (or never) and then immediately given away. Or how many procecdings were thrown into the dustbin without reading. If the totes are donated leftovers, OK, but we don't need to make them. I have a perfectly serviceable backpack to carry stuff in. We could ask for procedings preorders on the early-bird registration and warn that availability isn't guaranteed if you don't preorder. -- -Mike (Iron) Orr, iron@mso.oz.net (if mail problems: mso@oz.net) http://iron.cx/ English * Esperanto * Russkiy * Deutsch * Espan~ol From ziggy@panix.com Wed Jul 17 13:25:39 2002 From: ziggy@panix.com (Adam Turoff) Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 08:25:39 -0400 Subject: [Conferences-discuss] Update: YAPyC 2003 (Washington, DC) In-Reply-To: <2mn0sqzq6k.fsf@starship.python.net> References: <20020716221857.GC17439@panix.com> <20020717000619.GA13741@cthulhu.gerg.ca> <20020717031044.GB27727@panix.com> <2mn0sqzq6k.fsf@starship.python.net> Message-ID: <20020717122539.GB19722@panix.com> On Wed, Jul 17, 2002 at 09:58:27AM +0100, Michael Hudson wrote: > Adam Turoff writes: > > I'm also ignoring some of the more substantive issues: conference > > theme, target audience, target tracks, general scheduling (mid-winter > > seems OK so far), and overall expectations for this event. I really > > don't have a voice for any of these issues, and the best I can do here > > is describe what's been done at four North American YAPC events to date. > > Cheap-ish accomodation could be an issue (though given that I would be > coming from Europe, flights are probably going to dominate...). I'm starting with the assumption that this is a community-organized event that replaces the Foretec-organized IPC in DC in the winter. The couple of Europeans I met last year seemed to accept the airfare, hotel and rather expensive conference fees at IPC. I agree that it would be nice to offer some inexpensive accomodation. That's been another hallmark of YAPC, at least in the US. Unfortunately, that only becomes available in the summer (e.g. university dorms), when flights are significantly more expensive. For example, I could fly to London and pay for a hotel room for about $500-$800 in the winter, but the flight alone to London in the summer is about the same cost. (Just a random datapoint). There are other, less obvious effects on the community by having a community-run conference in the summer a few weeks away from the Python Conference at OSCon. Not only do the events compete with each other, but it places a stress on the speakers who speak at both events. We're seeing some of this with YAPC/TPC. Z. From lac@strakt.com Wed Jul 17 14:18:07 2002 From: lac@strakt.com (Laura Creighton) Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 15:18:07 +0200 Subject: [Conferences-discuss] Update: YAPyC 2003 (Washington, DC) In-Reply-To: Message from Adam Turoff of "Wed, 17 Jul 2002 08:25:39 EDT." <20020717122539.GB19722@panix.com> References: <20020716221857.GC17439@panix.com> <20020717000619.GA13741@cthulhu.gerg.ca> <20020717031044.GB27727@panix.com> <2mn0sqzq6k.fsf@starship.python.net> <20020717122539.GB19722@panix.com> Message-ID: <200207171318.g6HDI7ci021054@ratthing-b246.strakt.com> 1. Are you discussing a plan for the very next winter to happen, i.e January 2003 or for the one after that, December 2003? 2. re: > The couple of Europeans I met last year seemed to accept the airfare, > hotel and rather expensive conference fees at IPC. ... then you didn't meet the ones who thought the prices were outrageous and came anyway, as well as the people who stayed home. > > I agree that it would be nice to offer some inexpensive accomodation. > That's been another hallmark of YAPC, at least in the US. > Unfortunately, that only becomes available in the summer (e.g. > university dorms), when flights are significantly more expensive. For cheap accomodation in the spring/fall check out Summer Camps. They are usually happy to rent their whole site to conferences, for very little money. You then have to plan how to get people to the site. Remember that some people don't drive cars. Laura Creighton From gward@python.net Wed Jul 17 14:36:47 2002 From: gward@python.net (Greg Ward) Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 09:36:47 -0400 Subject: [Conferences-discuss] Update: YAPyC 2003 (Washington, DC) In-Reply-To: <20020717001705.GA21408@panix.com> References: <20020716221857.GC17439@panix.com> <20020717001705.GA21408@panix.com> Message-ID: <20020717133647.GA14752@cthulhu.gerg.ca> On 16 July 2002, Aahz said: > I'd suggest budgeting to break even if you get only 200 people. I also > suggest a large increase in reg fees close to the conference. But IPC10 -- which cost roughly 10x as much as Adam is proposing, and took place while the US high-tech industry was in free-fall -- attracted almost 300 people. A break-even point of 200 attendees seems pessimistic. +1 on strongly encouraging early registration, though! Greg -- Greg Ward - Unix weenie gward@python.net http://starship.python.net/~gward/ What the hell, go ahead and put all your eggs in one basket. From barry@zope.com Wed Jul 17 14:43:04 2002 From: barry@zope.com (Barry A. Warsaw) Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 09:43:04 -0400 Subject: [Conferences-discuss] Update: YAPyC 2003 (Washington, DC) References: <20020716221857.GC17439@panix.com> <20020717000619.GA13741@cthulhu.gerg.ca> <20020717031044.GB27727@panix.com> <2mn0sqzq6k.fsf@starship.python.net> <20020717122539.GB19722@panix.com> <200207171318.g6HDI7ci021054@ratthing-b246.strakt.com> Message-ID: <15669.29800.613031.958690@anthem.wooz.org> >>>>> "LC" == Laura Creighton writes: LC> For cheap accomodation in the spring/fall check out Summer LC> Camps. They are usually happy to rent their whole site to LC> conferences, for very little money. You then have to plan how LC> to get people to the site. Remember that some people don't LC> drive cars. Most summer camps have /really/ low-end accomodations. Are you okay with sharing a bunk bed in an 8-bed wooden box with community showers? :) On the other hand, you could bring a tent and a sleeping bag and do the nature thing, and there's usually great canoeing somewhere close by, so it could be fun. Then again there other really cool things we could affiliate with: http://www.victorwooten.com/basscamp/2001/description.htm :) -Barry From ziggy@panix.com Wed Jul 17 15:08:44 2002 From: ziggy@panix.com (Adam Turoff) Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 10:08:44 -0400 Subject: [Conferences-discuss] Update: YAPyC 2003 (Washington, DC) In-Reply-To: <200207171318.g6HDI7ci021054@ratthing-b246.strakt.com> References: <20020716221857.GC17439@panix.com> <20020717000619.GA13741@cthulhu.gerg.ca> <20020717031044.GB27727@panix.com> <2mn0sqzq6k.fsf@starship.python.net> <20020717122539.GB19722@panix.com> <200207171318.g6HDI7ci021054@ratthing-b246.strakt.com> Message-ID: <20020717140844.GF19722@panix.com> On Wed, Jul 17, 2002 at 03:18:07PM +0200, Laura Creighton wrote: > 1. Are you discussing a plan for the very next winter to happen, i.e > January 2003 or for the one after that, December 2003? Sorry if I wasn't clear. January 2003, about 6 months away from now. > 2. re: > > The couple of Europeans I met last year seemed to accept the airfare, > > hotel and rather expensive conference fees at IPC. > > ... then you didn't meet the ones who thought the prices were outrageous > and came anyway, as well as the people who stayed home. There's always EuroPython. Taking a few hundred dollars off of the conference fees will no doubt help people who thought IPC10 was outrageously expensive. Locating the event near the subway will make it more reasonable to book cheaper hotels that are further away. Airfare is generally less expensive in low season (fall and winter). Given that some people on this list didn't think that $250 wasn't entirely out of line for a small, community-organized Python event, I gather that dormitories are less important for this group, as long as there are some budget options for hotels. Z. From paul@zope.com Wed Jul 17 15:19:41 2002 From: paul@zope.com (Paul Everitt) Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 10:19:41 -0400 Subject: [Conferences-discuss] Update: YAPyC 2003 (Washington, DC) In-Reply-To: <20020717031044.GB27727@panix.com> Message-ID: <3C3E5878-9990-11D6-8812-003065C7DEAE@zope.com> On Tuesday, July 16, 2002, at 11:10 PM, Adam Turoff wrote: > On Tue, Jul 16, 2002 at 08:06:19PM -0400, Greg Ward wrote: >> On 16 July 2002, Adam Turoff said: >>> It's a little difficult to solve a multivariate equation when there >>> all >>> the variables are unknowns. :-) >> >> But it looks like you've done a great job so far -- thank you! I agree, I think you have the right spirit of things for what people are looking for. > I want to emphasize that I punted on some important issues, and > want to higlight them again: > - 3-day event > - 3-4 concurrent tracks > - 300 people > - $100/person budget [ballpark] That's correct as well. I'll try to give some feedback based on helping organize EuroPython 2002 in Belgium a few weeks ago... 1) $100 is certainly generous. EP 2002 was more than that. 2) They hauled in 255 people total, where roughly 75 didn't pay (organizers, speakers, press). 3) The role of lightning talks and BoFs was a challenge. Do you have a single lightning talk track, or do you work it into the separate tracks? Should BoFs be after hours, or should time be reserved? (In my opinion, have a single lightning talk track and don't try to carve out space for BoFs). 4) The tutorials took up the morning of the first day, were separately priced, and were considered relatively successful (I think). > I'm guessing that this would work for a Python conference. I've > never been to the Foretec events, and I don't know what the expectations > would be for a community run Python conference. The expectation is to do something different than previous conferences. :^) > I'm also ignoring some of the more substantive issues: conference > theme, target audience, target tracks, general scheduling (mid-winter > seems OK so far), and overall expectations for this event. I really > don't have a voice for any of these issues, and the best I can do here > is describe what's been done at four North American YAPC events to date. I don't know if you're opening up the floor to more ideas, but...we'd probably want to have a Zope "sprint" in the 3 days before the conference. A sprint is an intensive XP-style coding event for 8-16 people. This isn't a part of the conference proper, but can have the side effect of making it feel more like an official, annointed event. Guido hinted in his EP 2002 talk that he might want to have some kind of sprint-like stuff for Python futures. Guido, interested in making this part of YAPyC 2003? >> It shouldn't need saying, but I am totally opposed to expensive, >> unnecessary, and wasteful swag: I have enough tote bags already. I >> assume that kind of junk as not part of YAP(y)C conferences? > > Tote bags do tend to be useful (especially if there's a conference > schedule, maps, and mass of other printed materials for each > attendee). This has been a non-issue, because O'Reilly has donated > totebags before out of their leftover stock. I understand the reasoning. Personally, though, I'm with Greg on this one. I actively hate them. :^) --Paul From guido@python.org Wed Jul 17 15:54:28 2002 From: guido@python.org (Guido van Rossum) Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 10:54:28 -0400 Subject: [Conferences-discuss] Update: YAPyC 2003 (Washington, DC) In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 17 Jul 2002 10:19:41 EDT." <3C3E5878-9990-11D6-8812-003065C7DEAE@zope.com> References: <3C3E5878-9990-11D6-8812-003065C7DEAE@zope.com> Message-ID: <200207171454.g6HEsSf00997@odiug.zope.com> > Guido hinted in his EP 2002 talk that he might want to have some kind of > sprint-like stuff for Python futures. Guido, interested in making this > part of YAPyC 2003? Sure, if there are facilities available (PythonLabs' McLean offices are a little small, and while we can probably hire extra space here for a few days, that would be expensive.) > I understand the reasoning. Personally, though, I'm with Greg on this > one. I actively hate them. :^) But I *do* want T-shirts. AFAIK conference T-shirts always sell out. --Guido van Rossum (home page: http://www.python.org/~guido/) From barry@zope.com Wed Jul 17 16:08:35 2002 From: barry@zope.com (Barry A. Warsaw) Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 11:08:35 -0400 Subject: [Conferences-discuss] Update: YAPyC 2003 (Washington, DC) References: <20020717031044.GB27727@panix.com> <3C3E5878-9990-11D6-8812-003065C7DEAE@zope.com> Message-ID: <15669.34931.541984.206645@anthem.wooz.org> >>>>> "PE" == Paul Everitt writes: PE> Guido hinted in his EP 2002 talk that he might want to have PE> some kind of sprint-like stuff for Python futures. Guido, PE> interested in making this part of YAPyC 2003? I'd /really/ like to see a return to the workshop-ish approach for the YAPyC's. At IPC10 we pretty much agreed that OSCON would be the big glitzy affair that mostly replaced/had the style of the previous few IPCs. What's missing, IMO is the opportunity for getting stuff done by putting a large number of Python experts in a room together. So I'd like to see the emphasis be on working groups, sprints, lightening talks, etc. Think: presentation of current work, discussion of problems, followed by active cooperation to attack those problems. We could get a lot done. -Barry From barry@zope.com Wed Jul 17 16:25:15 2002 From: barry@zope.com (Barry A. Warsaw) Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 11:25:15 -0400 Subject: [Conferences-discuss] Update: YAPyC 2003 (Washington, DC) References: <3C3E5878-9990-11D6-8812-003065C7DEAE@zope.com> <200207171454.g6HEsSf00997@odiug.zope.com> Message-ID: <15669.35931.381559.655790@anthem.wooz.org> >>>>> "GvR" == Guido van Rossum writes: GvR> But I *do* want T-shirts. AFAIK conference T-shirts always GvR> sell out. Don't underestimate the power of merch to earn you a profit. :) -Barry From aahz@pythoncraft.com Wed Jul 17 17:24:49 2002 From: aahz@pythoncraft.com (Aahz) Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 12:24:49 -0400 Subject: [Conferences-discuss] Update: YAPyC 2003 (Washington, DC) In-Reply-To: <3C3E5878-9990-11D6-8812-003065C7DEAE@zope.com> References: <20020717031044.GB27727@panix.com> <3C3E5878-9990-11D6-8812-003065C7DEAE@zope.com> Message-ID: <20020717162449.GB22297@panix.com> On Wed, Jul 17, 2002, Paul Everitt wrote: > > 2) They hauled in 255 people total, where roughly 75 didn't pay > (organizers, speakers, press). I'd suggest a model where *everyone* pays (except possibly press). That lowers the cost for everyone; if someone really can't afford $150 or less for registration, we can have a "scholarship" fund. We can also do it like science fiction conventions, where profits are plowed into reg refunds *after* the conference. -- Aahz (aahz@pythoncraft.com) <*> http://www.pythoncraft.com/ Project Vote Smart: http://www.vote-smart.org/ From Bruce@EckelObjects.com Wed Jul 17 17:43:39 2002 From: Bruce@EckelObjects.com (Bruce Eckel) Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 10:43:39 -0600 Subject: [Conferences-discuss] Update: YAPyC 2003 (Washington, DC) In-Reply-To: <20020717094509.GE17314@mso.oz.net> References: <20020716221857.GC17439@panix.com> <20020717000619.GA13741@cthulhu.gerg.ca> <20020717094509.GE17314@mso.oz.net> Message-ID: <200207171043390859.0098B3DB@mail.frontier.net> I know there are services that do T-shirt print-on-demand. If you want one, you order it when you register, it's in your bag when you show up. Or even better, just let the POD company mail it to you ahead of time, or afterwards if you register on site. For that matter, we could do ballcaps or other such things as POD, if that's important. Generic plastic tote bags would seem good enough. And why not just move to the net for proceedings? Python is so web-based anyway. Proceedings always seemed like a throwback artifact to me. Most current information can be found at: http://www.mindview.net/Etc/notes.html =================== Bruce Eckel http://www.BruceEckel.com Contains free electronic books: "Thinking in Java 2e" & "Thinking in C++ 2e" Please subscribe to my free newsletter -- just send any email to: join-eckel-oo-programming@earth.lyris.net My schedule can be found at: http://www.mindview.net/Calendar =================== *********** REPLY SEPARATOR *********** On 7/17/2002 at 2:45 AM iron@sense-sea-MegaSub-1-220.oz.net wrote: >On Tue, Jul 16, 2002 at 08:06:19PM -0400, Greg Ward wrote: >> It shouldn't need saying, but I am totally opposed to expensive, >> unnecessary, and wasteful swag: I have enough tote bags already. I > >I second making material items an optional extra. Both because of the >cost and the environmental impact. You can go through the racks of any >thrift store and wonder how many of the T-shirts were worn once (or >never) and then immediately given away. Or how many procecdings were >thrown into the dustbin without reading. If the totes are donated >leftovers, OK, but we don't need to make them. I have a perfectly >serviceable backpack to carry stuff in. > >We could ask for procedings preorders on the early-bird registration >and warn that availability isn't guaranteed if you don't preorder. > >-- >-Mike (Iron) Orr, iron@mso.oz.net (if mail problems: mso@oz.net) > http://iron.cx/ English * Esperanto * Russkiy * Deutsch * Espan~ol > > >_______________________________________________ >Conferences-discuss mailing list >Conferences-discuss@python.org >http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/conferences-discuss From Bruce@EckelObjects.com Wed Jul 17 17:45:50 2002 From: Bruce@EckelObjects.com (Bruce Eckel) Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 10:45:50 -0600 Subject: [Conferences-discuss] Update: YAPyC 2003 (Washington, DC) In-Reply-To: <20020717122539.GB19722@panix.com> References: <20020716221857.GC17439@panix.com> <20020717000619.GA13741@cthulhu.gerg.ca> <20020717031044.GB27727@panix.com> <2mn0sqzq6k.fsf@starship.python.net> <20020717122539.GB19722@panix.com> Message-ID: <200207171045500125.009AB0B5@mail.frontier.net> For universities, you could look at dorms during spring break, and schedule around that. You could also consider using community college facilities. The other thing to do is research local lodgings and make a list, which can include youth hostels, motel 6, etc., and any other creative solutions (campgrounds). *********** REPLY SEPARATOR *********** On 7/17/2002 at 8:25 AM Adam Turoff wrote: >On Wed, Jul 17, 2002 at 09:58:27AM +0100, Michael Hudson wrote: >> Adam Turoff writes: >> > I'm also ignoring some of the more substantive issues: conference >> > theme, target audience, target tracks, general scheduling (mid-winter >> > seems OK so far), and overall expectations for this event. I really >> > don't have a voice for any of these issues, and the best I can do here >> > is describe what's been done at four North American YAPC events to >date. >> >> Cheap-ish accomodation could be an issue (though given that I would be >> coming from Europe, flights are probably going to dominate...). > >I'm starting with the assumption that this is a community-organized >event that replaces the Foretec-organized IPC in DC in the winter. >The couple of Europeans I met last year seemed to accept the airfare, >hotel and rather expensive conference fees at IPC. > >I agree that it would be nice to offer some inexpensive accomodation. >That's been another hallmark of YAPC, at least in the US. >Unfortunately, that only becomes available in the summer (e.g. >university dorms), when flights are significantly more expensive. >For example, I could fly to London and pay for a hotel room for >about $500-$800 in the winter, but the flight alone to London in >the summer is about the same cost. (Just a random datapoint). > >There are other, less obvious effects on the community by having >a community-run conference in the summer a few weeks away from the >Python Conference at OSCon. Not only do the events compete with each >other, but it places a stress on the speakers who speak at both events. >We're seeing some of this with YAPC/TPC. > >Z. > > > >_______________________________________________ >Conferences-discuss mailing list >Conferences-discuss@python.org >http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/conferences-discuss Most current information can be found at: http://www.mindview.net/Etc/notes.html =================== Bruce Eckel http://www.BruceEckel.com Contains free electronic books: "Thinking in Java 2e" & "Thinking in C++ 2e" Please subscribe to my free newsletter -- just send any email to: join-eckel-oo-programming@earth.lyris.net My schedule can be found at: http://www.mindview.net/Calendar =================== From Bruce@EckelObjects.com Wed Jul 17 21:45:15 2002 From: Bruce@EckelObjects.com (Bruce Eckel) Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 14:45:15 -0600 Subject: [Conferences-discuss] Update: YAPyC 2003 (Washington, DC) In-Reply-To: <20020717162449.GB22297@panix.com> References: <20020717031044.GB27727@panix.com> <3C3E5878-9990-11D6-8812-003065C7DEAE@zope.com> <20020717162449.GB22297@panix.com> Message-ID: <200207171445150250.0175E27A@mail.frontier.net> For a model like this, where it's volunteer based and the goal is to keep the cost down, I wouldn't mind paying the reg fee even if I'm speaking there. It's a different kind of thing -- more open and Python-ish. With the Python conferences in the past, there was always this overblown feeling with the too-expensive hotels, the fancy proceedings, and the organizing company really depressed all the time because they weren't making money. It really felt wrong. In that environment, the attitude was "well, if you're doing it for the money, then I want mine, too." Whereas if people aren't doing it for the money, then I want to contribute, too. Plus, ForeTec was consistently incompetent with simple things like getting the projectors up and working. If it's volunteer based then I'll bet you things would run much more smoothly (projectors have gotten much cheaper, as well, so I'll suspect it would be worth looking into owning some rather than renting, which tends to be rather expensive). Back in the days of Micro Cornucopia, they ran the annual SOG (Semi-Official Gathering) which was free except for the cost of traveling and staying there. Speakers didn't get paid for that, and it was great. *********** REPLY SEPARATOR *********** On 7/17/2002 at 12:24 PM Aahz wrote: >On Wed, Jul 17, 2002, Paul Everitt wrote: >> >> 2) They hauled in 255 people total, where roughly 75 didn't pay >> (organizers, speakers, press). > >I'd suggest a model where *everyone* pays (except possibly press). That >lowers the cost for everyone; if someone really can't afford $150 or less >for registration, we can have a "scholarship" fund. We can also do it >like science fiction conventions, where profits are plowed into reg >refunds *after* the conference. >-- >Aahz (aahz@pythoncraft.com) <*> >http://www.pythoncraft.com/ > >Project Vote Smart: http://www.vote-smart.org/ > > >_______________________________________________ >Conferences-discuss mailing list >Conferences-discuss@python.org >http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/conferences-discuss Most current information can be found at: http://www.mindview.net/Etc/notes.html =================== Bruce Eckel http://www.BruceEckel.com Contains free electronic books: "Thinking in Java 2e" & "Thinking in C++ 2e" Please subscribe to my free newsletter -- just send any email to: join-eckel-oo-programming@earth.lyris.net My schedule can be found at: http://www.mindview.net/Calendar =================== From Bruce@EckelObjects.com Wed Jul 17 21:48:45 2002 From: Bruce@EckelObjects.com (Bruce Eckel) Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 14:48:45 -0600 Subject: [Conferences-discuss] Update: YAPyC 2003 (Washington, DC) In-Reply-To: <200207171454.g6HEsSf00997@odiug.zope.com> References: <3C3E5878-9990-11D6-8812-003065C7DEAE@zope.com> <200207171454.g6HEsSf00997@odiug.zope.com> Message-ID: <200207171448450234.017916BA@mail.frontier.net> One thing I've learned is that there are lots of spaces available for cheap rent if you're a bit creative. Whenever you see a building that might work, it's worth asking if they rent it out. Churches, especially, have good spaces and go for cheap. Lions clubs, all kinds of places like that. Even some of these "Residence Inn" type places often have rooms that are cheaper than full hotel spaces, and are nicer and cheaper to stay in if you need to. *********** REPLY SEPARATOR *********** On 7/17/2002 at 10:54 AM Guido van Rossum wrote: >> Guido hinted in his EP 2002 talk that he might want to have some kind >of >> sprint-like stuff for Python futures. Guido, interested in making this >> part of YAPyC 2003? > >Sure, if there are facilities available (PythonLabs' McLean offices >are a little small, and while we can probably hire extra space here >for a few days, that would be expensive.) > >> I understand the reasoning. Personally, though, I'm with Greg on this >> one. I actively hate them. :^) > >But I *do* want T-shirts. AFAIK conference T-shirts always sell out. > >--Guido van Rossum (home page: http://www.python.org/~guido/) > > >_______________________________________________ >Conferences-discuss mailing list >Conferences-discuss@python.org >http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/conferences-discuss Most current information can be found at: http://www.mindview.net/Etc/notes.html =================== Bruce Eckel http://www.BruceEckel.com Contains free electronic books: "Thinking in Java 2e" & "Thinking in C++ 2e" Please subscribe to my free newsletter -- just send any email to: join-eckel-oo-programming@earth.lyris.net My schedule can be found at: http://www.mindview.net/Calendar =================== From Bruce@EckelObjects.com Wed Jul 17 21:53:11 2002 From: Bruce@EckelObjects.com (Bruce Eckel) Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 14:53:11 -0600 Subject: [Conferences-discuss] Update: YAPyC 2003 (Washington, DC) In-Reply-To: <3C3E5878-9990-11D6-8812-003065C7DEAE@zope.com> References: <3C3E5878-9990-11D6-8812-003065C7DEAE@zope.com> Message-ID: <200207171453110812.017D280C@mail.frontier.net> >4) The tutorials took up the morning of the first day, were separately >priced, and were considered relatively successful (I think). One thing you could do with the tutorials is create a good split with the speaker. Say, 50%. But then the speaker takes the risk as well as potentially reaping more rewards. The other 50% would pay for the resources necessary to put on the tutorial and go into the conference slush pot (presumably this would be a non-profit organization, so it could help pay for things like projectors and screens to reduce recurring costs). Most current information can be found at: http://www.mindview.net/Etc/notes.html =================== Bruce Eckel http://www.BruceEckel.com Contains free electronic books: "Thinking in Java 2e" & "Thinking in C++ 2e" Please subscribe to my free newsletter -- just send any email to: join-eckel-oo-programming@earth.lyris.net My schedule can be found at: http://www.mindview.net/Calendar =================== From Bruce@EckelObjects.com Wed Jul 17 21:57:42 2002 From: Bruce@EckelObjects.com (Bruce Eckel) Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 14:57:42 -0600 Subject: [Conferences-discuss] Update: YAPyC 2003 (Washington, DC) In-Reply-To: <20020717140844.GF19722@panix.com> References: <20020716221857.GC17439@panix.com> <20020717000619.GA13741@cthulhu.gerg.ca> <20020717031044.GB27727@panix.com> <2mn0sqzq6k.fsf@starship.python.net> <20020717122539.GB19722@panix.com> <200207171318.g6HDI7ci021054@ratthing-b246.strakt.com> <20020717140844.GF19722@panix.com> Message-ID: <200207171457420609.018149D9@mail.frontier.net> >Locating the event near the subway will make it more reasonable to >book cheaper hotels that are further away. This is a great idea, but it would be tremendously helpful if someone can make a list of recommended lodgings that are easily subway-able. See what I've done for Crested Butte (admittedly, we ride bikes here, rather than taking the subway :-): http://www.mindview.net/Seminars/Locations/CrestedButte/CrestedButte .html The hostel, in particular, is great and people have had a lot of fun staying there during our seminars. >Given that some people on this list didn't think that $250 wasn't >entirely out of line for a small, community-organized Python event, >I gather that dormitories are less important for this group, as long >as there are some budget options for hotels. I suppose, but also consider the community thing -- if there are dorms or youth hostels available (at least on the list of possibilities) then there's the possibility for more time hanging out, which is a huge part of a conference, in my experience. Most current information can be found at: http://www.mindview.net/Etc/notes.html =================== Bruce Eckel http://www.BruceEckel.com Contains free electronic books: "Thinking in Java 2e" & "Thinking in C++ 2e" Please subscribe to my free newsletter -- just send any email to: join-eckel-oo-programming@earth.lyris.net My schedule can be found at: http://www.mindview.net/Calendar =================== From gward@python.net Thu Jul 18 14:35:43 2002 From: gward@python.net (Greg Ward) Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 09:35:43 -0400 Subject: [Conferences-discuss] Update: YAPyC 2003 (Washington, DC) In-Reply-To: <200207171043390859.0098B3DB@mail.frontier.net> References: <20020716221857.GC17439@panix.com> <20020717000619.GA13741@cthulhu.gerg.ca> <20020717094509.GE17314@mso.oz.net> <200207171043390859.0098B3DB@mail.frontier.net> Message-ID: <20020718133543.GB2385@cthulhu.gerg.ca> On 17 July 2002, Bruce Eckel said: > And why not just move to the net for proceedings? Python is so > web-based anyway. Proceedings always seemed like a throwback > artifact to me. By default, yes. But I *like* having printed proceedings, and would happily pay US$20 or $30 for a book similar to the one I got at IPC10. (Although I would expect it to be competently copy-edited first. Yes, I'm willing to do that for a few papers.) I wouldn't pay 10 cents for proceedings on CD-ROM though -- it just seems silly and gratuitous when I can find the same stuff online. About t-shirts: how about getting some made that are actually comfortable to wear? I hate the big-splotch-of-rubbery-ink-stuff school of t-shirt printing that dominates my Python t-shirt collection. Greg -- Greg Ward - programmer-at-big gward@python.net http://starship.python.net/~gward/ I have a very good DENTAL PLAN. Thank you. From Bruce@EckelObjects.com Thu Jul 18 21:18:35 2002 From: Bruce@EckelObjects.com (Bruce Eckel) Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 14:18:35 -0600 Subject: [Conferences-discuss] Update: YAPyC 2003 (Washington, DC) In-Reply-To: <20020718133543.GB2385@cthulhu.gerg.ca> References: <20020716221857.GC17439@panix.com> <20020717000619.GA13741@cthulhu.gerg.ca> <20020717094509.GE17314@mso.oz.net> <200207171043390859.0098B3DB@mail.frontier.net> <20020718133543.GB2385@cthulhu.gerg.ca> Message-ID: <200207181418350328.009DE9C8@mail.frontier.net> I think this would be an ideal application of POD, and a way for YAPyC to help fund itself: people can download the proceedings, but if they want the POD, they can buy it, with a financial benefit to YAPyC. Plus, the printed proceedings wouldn't be a limited press run; people could continue to buy them in perpetuity. I agree RE the T-shirts, I've always been a big fan of quality T-shirts with embroidered logos. Again, if the POD approach is used, we could have the basic shirt with the rubber logo, and the cadillac shirt. Plus ballcaps and mugs. See: http://www.valleyofthegeeks.com/ http://www.cafeshops.com/cp/store.aspx?s=votg Look how much stuff is offered there, and trust me, my buddy Zack is not one to go out on any kind of financial limb here. As far as design goes, let's please consider using someone who does it well, and come up with some really beautiful ones (also a big issue with me). The designer I use for book covers, CDs, web sites and everything else could do something very nice and appropriate for us. See: http://www.will-harris.com Just because we're going towards a low-cost conference doesn't mean we can't have high-quality graphics! *********** REPLY SEPARATOR *********** On 7/18/2002 at 9:35 AM Greg Ward wrote: >On 17 July 2002, Bruce Eckel said: >> And why not just move to the net for proceedings? Python is so >> web-based anyway. Proceedings always seemed like a throwback >> artifact to me. > >By default, yes. But I *like* having printed proceedings, and would >happily pay US$20 or $30 for a book similar to the one I got at IPC10. >(Although I would expect it to be competently copy-edited first. Yes, >I'm willing to do that for a few papers.) I wouldn't pay 10 cents for >proceedings on CD-ROM though -- it just seems silly and gratuitous when >I can find the same stuff online. > >About t-shirts: how about getting some made that are actually >comfortable to wear? I hate the big-splotch-of-rubbery-ink-stuff school >of t-shirt printing that dominates my Python t-shirt collection. > > Greg >-- >Greg Ward - programmer-at-big gward@python.net >http://starship.python.net/~gward/ >I have a very good DENTAL PLAN. Thank you. > > >_______________________________________________ >Conferences-discuss mailing list >Conferences-discuss@python.org >http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/conferences-discuss Most current information can be found at: http://www.mindview.net/Etc/notes.html =================== Bruce Eckel http://www.BruceEckel.com Contains free electronic books: "Thinking in Java 2e" & "Thinking in C++ 2e" Please subscribe to my free newsletter -- just send any email to: join-eckel-oo-programming@earth.lyris.net My schedule can be found at: http://www.mindview.net/Calendar ===================