From fasteliteprogrammer at yahoo.com Thu Jan 1 20:28:28 2009 From: fasteliteprogrammer at yahoo.com (Craig) Date: Thu, 1 Jan 2009 11:28:28 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Chicago] wingware question Message-ID: <778713.83900.qm@web36503.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Has anyone use wingware for python IDE i just want to know what everyone think about it. www.wingware.com and the free one is the 101.I like it alot. From carl at personnelware.com Thu Jan 1 20:46:40 2009 From: carl at personnelware.com (Carl Karsten) Date: Thu, 01 Jan 2009 13:46:40 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] wingware question In-Reply-To: <778713.83900.qm@web36503.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <778713.83900.qm@web36503.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <495D1DA0.3080606@personnelware.com> When the language requires you to jump though hoops, IDEs come in handy - they take care of some of the hoop jumping. most people find that python has so few hoops, that investing in an IDE dosen't pay off. I will use SPE to look at other people's python code, like the source to reportlab. but once I figured out what I want to concentrate on, I used vi so I could put the cursor on foo, hit # and jump up the file to previous uses of foo. SPE and others probably have a similar feature, but I have 0.0 motivation to figure it out. Carl K From cosmin at offbytwo.com Thu Jan 1 21:02:09 2009 From: cosmin at offbytwo.com (Cosmin Stejerean) Date: Thu, 1 Jan 2009 14:02:09 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] wingware question In-Reply-To: <778713.83900.qm@web36503.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <778713.83900.qm@web36503.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <383bbcce0901011202s3a308850se3901582b016feb4@mail.gmail.com> On Thu, Jan 1, 2009 at 1:28 PM, Craig wrote: > Has anyone use wingware for python IDE i just want to know what everyone > think about it. > > > www.wingware.com and the free one is the 101.I like it alot. > Wingware is supposedly especially useful for debugging or analyzing Python applications. Similar things can be accomplished with PyDev + Eclipse but supposedly it's a bit harder. That's all I remember hearing about it. -- Cosmin Stejerean http://offbytwo.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From szybalski at gmail.com Fri Jan 2 16:55:11 2009 From: szybalski at gmail.com (Lukasz Szybalski) Date: Fri, 2 Jan 2009 09:55:11 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] addressbook cleanup software ? Message-ID: <804e5c70901020755o461b2d41uab88f2c8c5cc36cb@mail.gmail.com> Hello, Would anybody know a free software for an address book cleanup that works well? I have over 18,000 addresses where maybe 4,000 of them are unique. Everything else is a variation in name: company name vs abbreviated company name; ave vs avenue; PO vs P.O. vs P O, etc Any links to software that would do the job automatic or semi automatic. Thanks, Lucas -- How to create python package? http://lucasmanual.com/mywiki/PythonPaste Bazaar and Launchpad http://lucasmanual.com/mywiki/Bazaar From mdipierro at cs.depaul.edu Fri Jan 2 17:01:35 2009 From: mdipierro at cs.depaul.edu (Massimo Di Pierro) Date: Fri, 2 Jan 2009 10:01:35 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] addressbook cleanup software ? In-Reply-To: <804e5c70901020755o461b2d41uab88f2c8c5cc36cb@mail.gmail.com> References: <804e5c70901020755o461b2d41uab88f2c8c5cc36cb@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: This http://exogen.case.edu/projects/geopy/ may do it. Massimo On Jan 2, 2009, at 9:55 AM, Lukasz Szybalski wrote: > Hello, > Would anybody know a free software for an address book cleanup that > works well? > > I have over 18,000 addresses where maybe 4,000 of them are unique. > Everything else is a variation in name: company name vs abbreviated > company name; ave vs avenue; PO vs P.O. vs P O, etc > > Any links to software that would do the job automatic or semi > automatic. > > Thanks, > Lucas > > > > -- > How to create python package? > http://lucasmanual.com/mywiki/PythonPaste > Bazaar and Launchpad > http://lucasmanual.com/mywiki/Bazaar > _______________________________________________ > Chicago mailing list > Chicago at python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago From g at rrett.us.com Fri Jan 2 18:25:09 2009 From: g at rrett.us.com (Garrett Smith) Date: Fri, 2 Jan 2009 11:25:09 -0600 (CST) Subject: [Chicago] Capistrano alternatives Message-ID: <1356868190.2499381230917109468.JavaMail.root@mail-3.01.com> I'm noticing that Capistrano is showing up in projects that need to deploy and configure software across multiple servers. That's cool. The Makefile + Ruby syntax is NOT cool. I've tried to work with it (briefly) but have not been blessed with the patience and tolerance so commonly found in the Ruby community, God bless them. I'm currently checking out Buildbot for Capistrano-like applications. Has anyone dabbled in this and have some insights? Garrett -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at jrandolph.com Fri Jan 2 19:24:05 2009 From: jason at jrandolph.com (Jason Huggins) Date: Fri, 2 Jan 2009 12:24:05 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] Capistrano alternatives In-Reply-To: <1356868190.2499381230917109468.JavaMail.root@mail-3.01.com> References: <1356868190.2499381230917109468.JavaMail.root@mail-3.01.com> Message-ID: <53b9568a0901021024gea83218l7dd8137911419958@mail.gmail.com> On Fri, Jan 2, 2009 at 11:25 AM, Garrett Smith wrote: > I'm noticing that Capistrano is showing up in projects that need to deploy > and configure software across multiple servers. That's cool. > The Makefile + Ruby syntax is NOT cool. ... > Has anyone dabbled in this and have some insights? I *used* to flirt with the idea of creating a Rake clone for Python and call it "Snake"... :-) But I've matured since then. (Now get your hands and fingers ready for some serious "air quote" action coming up in the next paragraph.) I currently use an amazingly super awesome server deployment language called "Python". I define a sequence of build and deployment actions into units-of-work that I call "functions", and then I group all of these "functions" into one file that I call a "Python script". If any "functions" need to be run in parallel to each other, I either use something I call "threads" or other things I call "forked child processes". All told, my "Python scripts" are truly a wonder to behold and represent a giant leap forward in server deployment state-of-the-art. Forgive my snarkiness, but my real belief is that "POP" (Plain Old Python) is an excellent tool for server deployment (at least for simple deployments). Specifically, os.system is your friend. Talk to it. (People smarter than I will point out, however, that the "subprocess" module is now favored over using os.system.) If your needs are really complex, however, you might want to investigate Engine Yard's recently open sourced "Vertebra" ( http://www.engineyard.com/vertebra ). The integration point is XMPP, so even though the server bits of Vertebra are written in Ruby and Erlang, you can write your "real" deployment stuff in Python. Vertebra was partially created as a reaction to Cap. (proof: slides 21-25 of this: http://www.slideshare.net/ezmobius/vertebra ) (Side note: Along with ejabberd, I use the Twisted project's XMPP library heavily in my company's server deployment and maintenance scheme -- but again, POP+libraries rules the day for me.) cheers, hugs From g at rrett.us.com Fri Jan 2 19:45:34 2009 From: g at rrett.us.com (Garrett Smith) Date: Fri, 2 Jan 2009 12:45:34 -0600 (CST) Subject: [Chicago] Capistrano alternatives In-Reply-To: <86592802.2514011230921592610.JavaMail.root@mail-3.01.com> Message-ID: <1593438379.2514661230921934109.JavaMail.root@mail-3.01.com> Jason, your insight into the power of Python is quite keen. It's a wonder that frameworks exist at all -- just fire off a thread or two! Of course, one is tempted to find useful abstractions that are proven in the community. Thanks for the tips though. ----- "Jason Huggins" wrote: > On Fri, Jan 2, 2009 at 11:25 AM, Garrett Smith wrote: > > I'm noticing that Capistrano is showing up in projects that need to > deploy > > and configure software across multiple servers. That's cool. > > The Makefile + Ruby syntax is NOT cool. > ... > > Has anyone dabbled in this and have some insights? > > I *used* to flirt with the idea of creating a Rake clone for Python > and call it "Snake"... :-) But I've matured since then. > > (Now get your hands and fingers ready for some serious "air quote" > action coming up in the next paragraph.) > > I currently use an amazingly super awesome server deployment language > called "Python". I define a sequence of build and deployment actions > into units-of-work that I call "functions", and then I group all of > these "functions" into one file that I call a "Python script". If any > "functions" need to be run in parallel to each other, I either use > something I call "threads" or other things I call "forked child > processes". All told, my "Python scripts" are truly a wonder to > behold > and represent a giant leap forward in server deployment > state-of-the-art. > > Forgive my snarkiness, but my real belief is that "POP" (Plain Old > Python) is an excellent tool for server deployment (at least for > simple deployments). Specifically, os.system is your friend. Talk to > it. (People smarter than I will point out, however, that the > "subprocess" module is now favored over using os.system.) > > If your needs are really complex, however, you might want to > investigate Engine Yard's recently open sourced "Vertebra" ( > http://www.engineyard.com/vertebra ). The integration point is XMPP, > so even though the server bits of Vertebra are written in Ruby and > Erlang, you can write your "real" deployment stuff in Python. > Vertebra > was partially created as a reaction to Cap. (proof: slides 21-25 of > this: http://www.slideshare.net/ezmobius/vertebra ) (Side note: Along > with ejabberd, I use the Twisted project's XMPP library heavily in my > company's server deployment and maintenance scheme -- but again, > POP+libraries rules the day for me.) > > cheers, > hugs > _______________________________________________ > Chicago mailing list > Chicago at python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago From pfein at pobox.com Fri Jan 2 19:59:36 2009 From: pfein at pobox.com (Pete) Date: Fri, 2 Jan 2009 12:59:36 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] wingware question In-Reply-To: <778713.83900.qm@web36503.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <778713.83900.qm@web36503.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <5B30299E-4243-457C-A6A1-0084818F16B4@pobox.com> On Jan 1, 2009, at 1:28 PM, Craig wrote: > Has anyone use wingware for python IDE i just want to know what > everyone think about it. > > > www.wingware.com and the free one is the 101.I like it alot. I've been using Wing as my primary python editor for over 3 years. It's excellent - worth every penny. The autocompletion is unparalleled, and the search/replace is top-notch. Support is excellent too. Highly recommended. From pfein at pobox.com Fri Jan 2 20:01:07 2009 From: pfein at pobox.com (Pete) Date: Fri, 2 Jan 2009 13:01:07 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] Capistrano alternatives In-Reply-To: <1356868190.2499381230917109468.JavaMail.root@mail-3.01.com> References: <1356868190.2499381230917109468.JavaMail.root@mail-3.01.com> Message-ID: <6F055A55-2831-4F60-AD5A-39ECD9A81A58@pobox.com> try paver: http://www.blueskyonmars.com/projects/paver/ On Jan 2, 2009, at 11:25 AM, Garrett Smith wrote: > I'm noticing that Capistrano is showing up in projects that need to > deploy and configure software across multiple servers. That's cool. > > The Makefile + Ruby syntax is NOT cool. > > I've tried to work with it (briefly) but have not been blessed with > the patience and tolerance so commonly found in the Ruby community, > God bless them. > > I'm currently checking out Buildbot for Capistrano-like applications. > > Has anyone dabbled in this and have some insights? > > Garrett > _______________________________________________ > Chicago mailing list > Chicago at python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From deadwisdom at gmail.com Fri Jan 2 20:04:30 2009 From: deadwisdom at gmail.com (Brantley Harris) Date: Fri, 2 Jan 2009 13:04:30 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] Capistrano alternatives In-Reply-To: <1356868190.2499381230917109468.JavaMail.root@mail-3.01.com> References: <1356868190.2499381230917109468.JavaMail.root@mail-3.01.com> Message-ID: <694c06d60901021104j79349c2ata96e8cb8162805@mail.gmail.com> Totally undocumented, start of a project I called "Alacrity" that does capistrano-like things in a more python-like way. There are two sample projects in it "simple" and "complex". http://deadwisdom.com/alacrity.zip Ah my dream is to one day be able to continually start projects that others finish and maintain... On Fri, Jan 2, 2009 at 11:25 AM, Garrett Smith wrote: > I'm noticing that Capistrano is showing up in projects that need to deploy > and configure software across multiple servers. That's cool. > > The Makefile + Ruby syntax is NOT cool. > > I've tried to work with it (briefly) but have not been blessed with the > patience and tolerance so commonly found in the Ruby community, God bless > them. > > I'm currently checking out Buildbot for Capistrano-like applications. > > Has anyone dabbled in this and have some insights? > > Garrett > > _______________________________________________ > Chicago mailing list > Chicago at python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago > > From kumar.mcmillan at gmail.com Fri Jan 2 20:08:19 2009 From: kumar.mcmillan at gmail.com (Kumar McMillan) Date: Fri, 2 Jan 2009 13:08:19 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] Capistrano alternatives In-Reply-To: <1356868190.2499381230917109468.JavaMail.root@mail-3.01.com> References: <1356868190.2499381230917109468.JavaMail.root@mail-3.01.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Jan 2, 2009 at 11:25 AM, Garrett Smith wrote: > I'm noticing that Capistrano is showing up in projects that need to deploy > and configure software across multiple servers. That's cool. Even though Jason makes an excellent point about POP, it is sort of annoying to roll your own execute-on-remote-server thing. Python's answer to this is paramiko and the Python+paramiko answer to deployment tasks ? la Capistrano is Fabric http://www.nongnu.org/fab/ (it's even documented!). However, my disclaimer is that Fabric is new enough to where I am still stuck maintaining a bunch of Capistrano scripts and thus haven't used it much :( If you too are stuck with a bunch of Capistrano I suggest copying all the default cap tasks *out* of the base cap module and *into* your own cap file. I did this in a fit of confusion turned into wild rage and it was very helpful as now I can see exact what update_code and cleanup does. > I'm currently checking out Buildbot for Capistrano-like applications. I assume you meant buildout? As Pete mentions, there is also Paver. I have used paver more than I have Fabric and I'm a little annoyed by paver's use of magic but other than that I like it. It is best for bootstrapping your own virtualenv to install your module "in place." AFAIK paver does not provide remote server execution out of the box like Fabric does. Kumar From g at rrett.us.com Fri Jan 2 20:19:12 2009 From: g at rrett.us.com (Garrett Smith) Date: Fri, 2 Jan 2009 13:19:12 -0600 (CST) Subject: [Chicago] Capistrano alternatives In-Reply-To: <205347379.2608501230923884724.JavaMail.root@mail-3.01.com> Message-ID: <1356349892.2621501230923952498.JavaMail.root@mail-3.01.com> http://buildbot.net/trac It would be one of those "not really built for but works..." scenarios -- like Capistrano. The pattern of scheduling deployments of some code, running a build, and then reporting the results, is the core pattern that (I think) I'm looking for. I looked at Paver a while back but after working with it a bit, I didn't feel like I was going any faster than I was with standard Python scripts. I don't recall what its distributed (i.e. multi-server deployment) story was, if anything. Fabric looks to be spot on -- will definitely check it out! ----- "Kumar McMillan" wrote: > On Fri, Jan 2, 2009 at 11:25 AM, Garrett Smith > wrote: > > I'm noticing that Capistrano is showing up in projects that need to > deploy > > and configure software across multiple servers. That's cool. > > Even though Jason makes an excellent point about POP, it is sort of > annoying to roll your own execute-on-remote-server thing. Python's > answer to this is paramiko and the Python+paramiko answer to > deployment tasks ? la Capistrano is Fabric http://www.nongnu.org/fab/ > (it's even documented!). However, my disclaimer is that Fabric is > new > enough to where I am still stuck maintaining a bunch of Capistrano > scripts and thus haven't used it much :( If you too are stuck with a > bunch of Capistrano I suggest copying all the default cap tasks *out* > of the base cap module and *into* your own cap file. I did this in a > fit of confusion turned into wild rage and it was very helpful as now > I can see exact what update_code and cleanup does. > > > I'm currently checking out Buildbot for Capistrano-like > applications. > > I assume you meant buildout? As Pete mentions, there is also Paver. > I have used paver more than I have Fabric and I'm a little annoyed by > paver's use of magic but other than that I like it. It is best for > bootstrapping your own virtualenv to install your module "in place." > AFAIK paver does not provide remote server execution out of the box > like Fabric does. > > > Kumar > _______________________________________________ > Chicago mailing list > Chicago at python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago From ianb at colorstudy.com Fri Jan 2 20:21:15 2009 From: ianb at colorstudy.com (Ian Bicking) Date: Fri, 02 Jan 2009 14:21:15 -0500 Subject: [Chicago] Capistrano alternatives In-Reply-To: <1356349892.2621501230923952498.JavaMail.root@mail-3.01.com> References: <1356349892.2621501230923952498.JavaMail.root@mail-3.01.com> Message-ID: <495E692B.6090305@colorstudy.com> Garrett Smith wrote: > http://buildbot.net/trac > > It would be one of those "not really built for but works..." > scenarios -- like Capistrano. The pattern of scheduling deployments > of some code, running a build, and then reporting the results, is the > core pattern that (I think) I'm looking for. > > I looked at Paver a while back but after working with it a bit, I > didn't feel like I was going any faster than I was with standard > Python scripts. I don't recall what its distributed (i.e. > multi-server deployment) story was, if anything. There are stated plans to integrate Fabric into Paver, or vice versa, or some new bigger thing. Anyway, it's just Fabric. Maybe more abstract, there's also py.execnet (part of pylib). -- Ian Bicking : ianb at colorstudy.com : http://blog.ianbicking.org From fasteliteprogrammer at yahoo.com Fri Jan 2 20:22:13 2009 From: fasteliteprogrammer at yahoo.com (Craig) Date: Fri, 2 Jan 2009 11:22:13 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Chicago] wingware question Message-ID: <514266.50129.qm@web36503.mail.mud.yahoo.com> I useing the free one for wingware.What wingware you useing? --- On Fri, 1/2/09, Pete wrote: From: Pete Subject: Re: [Chicago] wingware question To: "The Chicago Python Users Group" Date: Friday, January 2, 2009, 12:59 PM On Jan 1, 2009, at 1:28 PM, Craig wrote: > Has anyone use wingware for python IDE i just want to know what everyone think about it. > > > www.wingware.com and the free one is the 101.I like it alot. I've been using Wing as my primary python editor for over 3 years.? It's excellent - worth every penny.? The autocompletion is unparalleled, and the search/replace is top-notch. Support is excellent too. Highly recommended. _______________________________________________ Chicago mailing list Chicago at python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pfein at pobox.com Fri Jan 2 22:03:48 2009 From: pfein at pobox.com (Pete) Date: Fri, 2 Jan 2009 15:03:48 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] wingware question In-Reply-To: <514266.50129.qm@web36503.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <514266.50129.qm@web36503.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <9BE86562-E818-4C5D-881C-749F0905C2DE@pobox.com> On Jan 2, 2009, at 1:22 PM, Craig wrote: > I useing the free one for wingware.What wingware you useing? I use Pro, but I do this for a living. YMMV. Your spelling is terrible. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From fasteliteprogrammer at yahoo.com Fri Jan 2 22:19:55 2009 From: fasteliteprogrammer at yahoo.com (Craig) Date: Fri, 2 Jan 2009 13:19:55 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Chicago] wingware question Message-ID: <565075.40133.qm@web36501.mail.mud.yahoo.com> I wish i had that one.But i happy with the free one.Does the pro one have everything on it? --- On Fri, 1/2/09, Pete wrote: From: Pete Subject: Re: [Chicago] wingware question To: "The Chicago Python Users Group" Date: Friday, January 2, 2009, 3:03 PM On Jan 2, 2009, at 1:22 PM, Craig wrote: I useing the free one for wingware.What wingware you useing? I use Pro, but I do this for a living. ?YMMV. Your spelling is terrible. -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ Chicago mailing list Chicago at python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at jrandolph.com Sat Jan 3 00:11:48 2009 From: jason at jrandolph.com (Jason Huggins) Date: Fri, 2 Jan 2009 17:11:48 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] Capistrano alternatives In-Reply-To: References: <1356868190.2499381230917109468.JavaMail.root@mail-3.01.com> Message-ID: <53b9568a0901021511o76f9df49n16cb90782c5266eb@mail.gmail.com> On Fri, Jan 2, 2009 at 1:08 PM, Kumar McMillan wrote: > On Fri, Jan 2, 2009 at 11:25 AM, Garrett Smith wrote: >> I'm noticing that Capistrano is showing up in projects that need to deploy >> and configure software across multiple servers. That's cool. > > Even though Jason makes an excellent point about POP, it is sort of > annoying to roll your own execute-on-remote-server thing. Python's > answer to this is paramiko and the Python+paramiko answer to > deployment tasks ? la Capistrano is Fabric http://www.nongnu.org/fab/ Agreed re:paramiko. The one super-annoying thing about using os.system for calling ssh or scp commands is not being able to see the live standard output of the remote shell immediately as it runs. With Paramiko, you can pull/poll the remote stdout and stderr as often as you want and display it to your local console (or do whatever you want with it) whenever you want. Side note: I was going to rant about why I'm spooked by Fabric's use of the GPL. (Rake and Cap use an MIT-license, which I'm much more a fan of.) My fear/rant was that Fabric-based build scripts would also need to be GPL'd since they depend on Fabric. However, after reading a section of the Free Software Foundation's GPL FAQ [1], I feel slightly more safe in thinking that Fabric-based build scripts are considered "data" to the Fabric program in this scenario. Therefore, Fabric-based build scripts are *not* bound by the GPL. Do others agree? (I hope so!) Side-side note: Although, I am generally a fan of POP for my own builds, it would be nice to see some tool "win" in Python-land as a rake/cap equivalent. Since Fabric files are "just python", it mostly matches my POP+libraries ideal. Perhaps with Fabric (as long as I don't have any GPL issues using it) I can have my cake and build it, too. cheers, hugs [1]: http://www.fsf.org/licensing/licenses/gpl-faq.html#IfInterpreterIsGPL From pfein at pobox.com Sat Jan 3 16:56:14 2009 From: pfein at pobox.com (Pete) Date: Sat, 3 Jan 2009 09:56:14 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] wingware question In-Reply-To: <565075.40133.qm@web36501.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <565075.40133.qm@web36501.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: How about the extremely prominent "Read More" link? http://wingware.com/products For our collective sakes & the future of programming as a practical art, please consider finding another career. On Jan 2, 2009, at 3:19 PM, Craig wrote: > I wish i had that one.But i happy with the free one.Does the pro one > have everything on it? > > --- On Fri, 1/2/09, Pete wrote: > > From: Pete > Subject: Re: [Chicago] wingware question > To: "The Chicago Python Users Group" > Date: Friday, January 2, 2009, 3:03 PM > > > On Jan 2, 2009, at 1:22 PM, Craig wrote: > >> I useing the free one for wingware.What wingware you useing? > > I use Pro, but I do this for a living. YMMV. > > Your spelling is terrible. > > -----Inline Attachment Follows----- > > _______________________________________________ > Chicago mailing list > Chicago at python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago > > _______________________________________________ > Chicago mailing list > Chicago at python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bray at sent.com Sat Jan 3 18:28:26 2009 From: bray at sent.com (Brian Ray) Date: Sat, 3 Jan 2009 11:28:26 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] Call for Presentations for January Meeting Message-ID: <2B102301-B6D9-4FEF-AC11-070B151997A6@sent.com> It is that time again. The theme this time is Python 3000. It sounds like we are also interested in some broader language comparisons. A couple of you said you would like to present after last month's meeting. This would be a good time to formalize your topic. Thanks, Brian Ray From dgriff1 at gmail.com Sat Jan 3 19:17:12 2009 From: dgriff1 at gmail.com (Daniel Griffin) Date: Sat, 3 Jan 2009 12:17:12 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] Call for Presentations for January Meeting In-Reply-To: <2B102301-B6D9-4FEF-AC11-070B151997A6@sent.com> References: <2B102301-B6D9-4FEF-AC11-070B151997A6@sent.com> Message-ID: <3db160680901031017k2747641av1019b11336681b79@mail.gmail.com> If we do language comparisons I would be willing to do 2 minutes of plain old C or something. Dan On Sat, Jan 3, 2009 at 11:28 AM, Brian Ray wrote: > It is that time again. > > The theme this time is Python 3000. It sounds like we are also interested > in some broader language comparisons. > > A couple of you said you would like to present after last month's meeting. > This would be a good time to formalize your topic. > > Thanks, > > Brian Ray > > > > _______________________________________________ > Chicago mailing list > Chicago at python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bray at sent.com Sat Jan 3 20:47:49 2009 From: bray at sent.com (Brian Ray) Date: Sat, 3 Jan 2009 13:47:49 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] Call for Presentations for January Meeting In-Reply-To: <3db160680901031017k2747641av1019b11336681b79@mail.gmail.com> References: <2B102301-B6D9-4FEF-AC11-070B151997A6@sent.com> <3db160680901031017k2747641av1019b11336681b79@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Jan 3, 2009, at 12:17 PM, Daniel Griffin wrote: > If we do language comparisons I would be willing to do 2 minutes of > plain old C or something. It might be a good idea to set up lightening talks on different languages--meanwhile filling out a language comparison sheet by each presenter. Each presenter will fill in the specific questions for that particular language in comparison to Python. How does this sound? Brian Ray From dgriff1 at gmail.com Sat Jan 3 22:08:03 2009 From: dgriff1 at gmail.com (Daniel Griffin) Date: Sat, 3 Jan 2009 15:08:03 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] Call for Presentations for January Meeting In-Reply-To: References: <2B102301-B6D9-4FEF-AC11-070B151997A6@sent.com> <3db160680901031017k2747641av1019b11336681b79@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <3db160680901031308g39f66518kfb0f7b05d69b98b3@mail.gmail.com> Sounds good, I guess it would be good to hit on the available programming styles in each language, imperative, OO, functional, contract? Typing systems and deployment issues? What other stuff does anyone want to know? Dan On Sat, Jan 3, 2009 at 1:47 PM, Brian Ray wrote: > > On Jan 3, 2009, at 12:17 PM, Daniel Griffin wrote: > > If we do language comparisons I would be willing to do 2 minutes of plain >> old C or something. >> > > > It might be a good idea to set up lightening talks on different > languages--meanwhile filling out a language comparison sheet by each > presenter. Each presenter will fill in the specific questions for that > particular language in comparison to Python. > > How does this sound? > > > > Brian Ray > > > > _______________________________________________ > Chicago mailing list > Chicago at python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maney at two14.net Sun Jan 4 06:15:29 2009 From: maney at two14.net (Martin Maney) Date: Sat, 3 Jan 2009 23:15:29 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] Capistrano alternatives In-Reply-To: <53b9568a0901021511o76f9df49n16cb90782c5266eb@mail.gmail.com> References: <1356868190.2499381230917109468.JavaMail.root@mail-3.01.com> <53b9568a0901021511o76f9df49n16cb90782c5266eb@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20090104051529.GB16799@furrr.two14.net> On Fri, Jan 02, 2009 at 05:11:48PM -0600, Jason Huggins wrote: > fan of.) My fear/rant was that Fabric-based build scripts would also > need to be GPL'd since they depend on Fabric. However, after reading a > section of the Free Software Foundation's GPL FAQ [1], I feel slightly > more safe in thinking that Fabric-based build scripts are considered > "data" to the Fabric program in this scenario. Therefore, Fabric-based > build scripts are *not* bound by the GPL. Do others agree? (I hope > so!) If this actually matters to you, then I sincerely hope you ask a lawyer. The devil is indeed in the details... -- To read a book, to think it over, and to write out notes is a useful exercise; a book which will not repay some hard thought is not worth publishing. -- Maria Mitchell From ianb at colorstudy.com Mon Jan 5 02:25:24 2009 From: ianb at colorstudy.com (Ian Bicking) Date: Sun, 04 Jan 2009 19:25:24 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] Capistrano alternatives In-Reply-To: <20090104051529.GB16799@furrr.two14.net> References: <1356868190.2499381230917109468.JavaMail.root@mail-3.01.com> <53b9568a0901021511o76f9df49n16cb90782c5266eb@mail.gmail.com> <20090104051529.GB16799@furrr.two14.net> Message-ID: <49616184.3000902@colorstudy.com> Martin Maney wrote: > On Fri, Jan 02, 2009 at 05:11:48PM -0600, Jason Huggins wrote: >> fan of.) My fear/rant was that Fabric-based build scripts would also >> need to be GPL'd since they depend on Fabric. However, after reading a >> section of the Free Software Foundation's GPL FAQ [1], I feel slightly >> more safe in thinking that Fabric-based build scripts are considered >> "data" to the Fabric program in this scenario. Therefore, Fabric-based >> build scripts are *not* bound by the GPL. Do others agree? (I hope >> so!) > > If this actually matters to you, then I sincerely hope you ask a > lawyer. The devil is indeed in the details... Lawyers are bullshit. The ABSOLUTE WORST CASE is that the developers of Fabric will be annoyed that you are using their code in a closed source system, and they'll ask you to open your code or stop using Fabric. If you are a jerk about it, then you might also burn some social capital. That's all you risk, and if you ask the Fabric people up front how they interpret the GPL then you don't even risk that. Any other prediction is simply false. Lawyers probably won't tell you this, which is why you shouldn't ask a lawyer. -- Ian Bicking : ianb at colorstudy.com : http://blog.ianbicking.org From david.durham.jr at gmail.com Mon Jan 5 15:49:22 2009 From: david.durham.jr at gmail.com (David Durham, Jr.) Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2009 08:49:22 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] Call for Presentations for January Meeting In-Reply-To: References: <2B102301-B6D9-4FEF-AC11-070B151997A6@sent.com> <3db160680901031017k2747641av1019b11336681b79@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Sat, Jan 3, 2009 at 1:47 PM, Brian Ray wrote: > > On Jan 3, 2009, at 12:17 PM, Daniel Griffin wrote: > >> If we do language comparisons I would be willing to do 2 minutes of plain >> old C or something. > > > It might be a good idea to set up lightening talks on different > languages--meanwhile filling out a language comparison sheet by each > presenter. Each presenter will fill in the specific questions for that > particular language in comparison to Python. > > How does this sound? Sounds fine to me. I'd be willing to talk about Groovy, unless someone else wants to cover it. Hint: I only have about 2 weeks of experience with Groovy. Still, I could talk about purely language specific stuff and show a few examples. Aside from just the language improvements over plain Java, Groovy "builders" are interesting. -Dave From bray at sent.com Mon Jan 5 16:30:34 2009 From: bray at sent.com (Brian Ray) Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2009 09:30:34 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] ChiPy Needs your Help! Message-ID: <65ACC318-CD63-4660-BB0F-70A2A54C6BC2@sent.com> Thursday's Meeting will be our best yet. Nonetheless, the format will be an ambitious one. I need your help, ASAP. It looks like we will finally get an language comparison lightening talk session. Yay! I started an outline of or Topics: What I really need is two things: 1) A presentation more capable than Carl or myself to do an introduction to Py3K. Is there anyone local (or remote who will travel) willing to present on this very important topic? Any core Python people out there? It would be great if we can have: overview, examples, and a FAQ section. This can be sliced and diced anyway we like: between multiple speakers or all at once. I just feel it is our duty to address this topic. If nobody is found I will make due. But, please, help me look. 2) Secondly, Those willing to to quick (15 min) comparisons to Python to any other language. Like I said, the rough list is started. I would really like to get 10 or some, some serious and some not so serious. There *WILL* be a couple of areas each presenter will need to address. This should be really fun. We have a great new venue Roosevelt University Historic Auditorium Building on Michigan Avenue and Congress--I am also the host since it is my alma mater. Everyone please try and contribute to make this the best meeting yet and to welcome 2009. Thanks, Brian Ray From allan2600 at gmail.com Mon Jan 5 16:37:29 2009 From: allan2600 at gmail.com (Allan Spale) Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2009 09:37:29 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] ChiPy Needs your Help! In-Reply-To: <65ACC318-CD63-4660-BB0F-70A2A54C6BC2@sent.com> References: <65ACC318-CD63-4660-BB0F-70A2A54C6BC2@sent.com> Message-ID: <79acc5430901050737t42b7f58dx95c031e2da471469@mail.gmail.com> Hi Brian, I will do Py3K topics. Let me know what topics you would like for me to cover and how long you would like me to speak. Allan On Mon, Jan 5, 2009 at 9:30 AM, Brian Ray wrote: > Thursday's Meeting will be our best yet. Nonetheless, the format will be an > ambitious one. I need your help, ASAP. > > It looks like we will finally get an language comparison lightening talk > session. Yay! I started an outline of or Topics: > > > > What I really need is two things: > > 1) A presentation more capable than Carl or myself to do an > introduction to Py3K. Is there anyone local (or remote who will travel) > willing to present on this very important topic? Any core Python people out > there? It would be great if we can have: overview, examples, and a FAQ > section. This can be sliced and diced anyway we like: between multiple > speakers or all at once. I just feel it is our duty to address this topic. > If nobody is found I will make due. But, please, help me look. > > 2) Secondly, Those willing to to quick (15 min) comparisons to > Python to any other language. Like I said, the rough list is started. I > would really like to get 10 or some, some serious and some not so serious. > There *WILL* be a couple of areas each presenter will need to address. This > should be really fun. > > We have a great new venue Roosevelt University Historic Auditorium Building > on Michigan Avenue and Congress--I am also the host since it is my alma > mater. Everyone please try and contribute to make this the best meeting yet > and to welcome 2009. > > Thanks, > > Brian Ray > > > > _______________________________________________ > Chicago mailing list > Chicago at python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From g at rrett.us.com Mon Jan 5 16:36:55 2009 From: g at rrett.us.com (Garrett Smith) Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2009 09:36:55 -0600 (CST) Subject: [Chicago] ChiPy Needs your Help! In-Reply-To: <65ACC318-CD63-4660-BB0F-70A2A54C6BC2@sent.com> Message-ID: <438264730.1037191231169815500.JavaMail.root@mail-3.01.com> I'm surprised to see Java missing. I can take this one if no one else is planning or wants to. ----- "Brian Ray" wrote: > Thursday's Meeting will be our best yet. Nonetheless, the format will > > be an ambitious one. I need your help, ASAP. > > It looks like we will finally get an language comparison lightening > talk session. Yay! I started an outline of or Topics: > > > > What I really need is two things: > > 1) A presentation more capable than Carl or myself to do an > introduction to Py3K. Is there anyone local (or remote who will > travel) willing to present on this very important topic? Any core > Python people out there? It would be great if we can have: overview, > > examples, and a FAQ section. This can be sliced and diced anyway we > > like: between multiple speakers or all at once. I just feel it is our > > duty to address this topic. If nobody is found I will make due. But, > > please, help me look. > > 2) Secondly, Those willing to to quick (15 min) comparisons to > Python to any other language. Like I said, the rough list is started. > > I would really like to get 10 or some, some serious and some not so > serious. There *WILL* be a couple of areas each presenter will need > > to address. This should be really fun. > > We have a great new venue Roosevelt University Historic Auditorium > Building on Michigan Avenue and Congress--I am also the host since it > > is my alma mater. Everyone please try and contribute to make this the > > best meeting yet and to welcome 2009. > > Thanks, > > Brian Ray > > > > _______________________________________________ > Chicago mailing list > Chicago at python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago From bray at sent.com Mon Jan 5 17:11:08 2009 From: bray at sent.com (Brian Ray) Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2009 10:11:08 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] ChiPy Needs your Help! In-Reply-To: <79acc5430901050737t42b7f58dx95c031e2da471469@mail.gmail.com> References: <65ACC318-CD63-4660-BB0F-70A2A54C6BC2@sent.com> <79acc5430901050737t42b7f58dx95c031e2da471469@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1DE9353A-D14A-494B-A9D4-769684862AD0@sent.com> On Jan 5, 2009, at 9:37 AM, Allan Spale wrote: > I will do Py3K topics. Let me know what topics you would like for me > to cover and how long you would like me to speak. Awesome. I was hoping you would say that. Your scheduled! How you structure your talk is up to you. I would consider covering the topics GVR blogged about in the past. I would certainly find some way to get the FAQ in there, as well. This should answer questions like, which version of Python should I start with ...etc. The major changes (like changes to print()) should be covered in depth... IMHO. Brian Ray From bray at sent.com Mon Jan 5 17:11:27 2009 From: bray at sent.com (Brian Ray) Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2009 10:11:27 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] ChiPy Needs your Help! In-Reply-To: <438264730.1037191231169815500.JavaMail.root@mail-3.01.com> References: <438264730.1037191231169815500.JavaMail.root@mail-3.01.com> Message-ID: On Jan 5, 2009, at 9:36 AM, Garrett Smith wrote: > I'm surprised to see Java missing. I can take this one if no one > else is planning or wants to. Your down for Java, Thanks. Brian Ray From shekay at pobox.com Mon Jan 5 18:08:35 2009 From: shekay at pobox.com (sheila miguez) Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2009 11:08:35 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] ChiPy Needs your Help! In-Reply-To: <65ACC318-CD63-4660-BB0F-70A2A54C6BC2@sent.com> References: <65ACC318-CD63-4660-BB0F-70A2A54C6BC2@sent.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Jan 5, 2009 at 9:30 AM, Brian Ray wrote: > Thursday's Meeting will be our best yet. Nonetheless, the format will be an > ambitious one. I need your help, ASAP. ... I'll ask Bryan if that thursday is a bad day. I'd love to hear him cmp tcl to python. I haven't used tcl in forever so I'm not a good person to do so. -- sheila From shekay at pobox.com Mon Jan 5 18:15:04 2009 From: shekay at pobox.com (sheila miguez) Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2009 11:15:04 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] ChiPy Needs your Help! In-Reply-To: References: <65ACC318-CD63-4660-BB0F-70A2A54C6BC2@sent.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Jan 5, 2009 at 11:08 AM, sheila miguez wrote: > On Mon, Jan 5, 2009 at 9:30 AM, Brian Ray wrote: >> Thursday's Meeting will be our best yet. Nonetheless, the format will be an >> ambitious one. I need your help, ASAP. > ... > > I'll ask Bryan if that thursday is a bad day. I'd love to hear him cmp > tcl to python. I haven't used tcl in forever so I'm not a good person > to do so. oh, yeah, checking the page Martin is listed -- I just sent him email. One week notice isn't great people. Instead of dicking around with jokes when I first asked if we were serious about this it would have been nice to plan a little ahead. (grumpy) -- sheila From ianb at colorstudy.com Mon Jan 5 19:49:55 2009 From: ianb at colorstudy.com (Ian Bicking) Date: Mon, 05 Jan 2009 12:49:55 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] ChiPy Needs your Help! In-Reply-To: <65ACC318-CD63-4660-BB0F-70A2A54C6BC2@sent.com> References: <65ACC318-CD63-4660-BB0F-70A2A54C6BC2@sent.com> Message-ID: <49625653.9050103@colorstudy.com> Brian Ray wrote: > 1) A presentation more capable than Carl or myself to do an > introduction to Py3K. Is there anyone local (or remote who will travel) > willing to present on this very important topic? Any core Python people > out there? It would be great if we can have: overview, examples, and a > FAQ section. This can be sliced and diced anyway we like: between > multiple speakers or all at once. I just feel it is our duty to address > this topic. If nobody is found I will make due. But, please, help me look. > > 2) Secondly, Those willing to to quick (15 min) comparisons to > Python to any other language. Like I said, the rough list is started. I > would really like to get 10 or some, some serious and some not so > serious. There *WILL* be a couple of areas each presenter will need to > address. This should be really fun. Is this going to be too much material for one meeting? We've been going a little long on presentations, and this one seems more ambitious than most. -- Ian Bicking : ianb at colorstudy.com : http://blog.ianbicking.org From dgriff1 at gmail.com Mon Jan 5 19:53:09 2009 From: dgriff1 at gmail.com (Daniel Griffin) Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2009 12:53:09 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] ChiPy Needs your Help! In-Reply-To: <49625653.9050103@colorstudy.com> References: <65ACC318-CD63-4660-BB0F-70A2A54C6BC2@sent.com> <49625653.9050103@colorstudy.com> Message-ID: <3db160680901051053l1a4849e7x1d00d1d61458e53e@mail.gmail.com> It should be ok if we can keep the individual language comparos to under 5 minutes. There really isnt that much to say about C except for "doesnt have this" or "Can be poorly done using function pointers" Do we have a sort of definitive list on the comparison points? Dan On Mon, Jan 5, 2009 at 12:49 PM, Ian Bicking wrote: > Brian Ray wrote: > >> 1) A presentation more capable than Carl or myself to do an >> introduction to Py3K. Is there anyone local (or remote who will travel) >> willing to present on this very important topic? Any core Python people out >> there? It would be great if we can have: overview, examples, and a FAQ >> section. This can be sliced and diced anyway we like: between multiple >> speakers or all at once. I just feel it is our duty to address this topic. >> If nobody is found I will make due. But, please, help me look. >> >> 2) Secondly, Those willing to to quick (15 min) comparisons to Python >> to any other language. Like I said, the rough list is started. I would >> really like to get 10 or some, some serious and some not so serious. There >> *WILL* be a couple of areas each presenter will need to address. This >> should be really fun. >> > > Is this going to be too much material for one meeting? We've been going a > little long on presentations, and this one seems more ambitious than most. > > > -- > Ian Bicking : ianb at colorstudy.com : http://blog.ianbicking.org > > _______________________________________________ > Chicago mailing list > Chicago at python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From shekay at pobox.com Mon Jan 5 19:57:57 2009 From: shekay at pobox.com (sheila miguez) Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2009 12:57:57 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] ChiPy Needs your Help! In-Reply-To: <3db160680901051053l1a4849e7x1d00d1d61458e53e@mail.gmail.com> References: <65ACC318-CD63-4660-BB0F-70A2A54C6BC2@sent.com> <49625653.9050103@colorstudy.com> <3db160680901051053l1a4849e7x1d00d1d61458e53e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: It's ambitious so it would be good to get a list. I thought we were going to focus on dynamic languages, but with c and java et al it might be too ambitious. For tcl I was hoping to hear about tclkits vs eggs since I hear that eggs suck. On Mon, Jan 5, 2009 at 12:53 PM, Daniel Griffin wrote: > It should be ok if we can keep the individual language comparos to under 5 > minutes. There really isnt that much to say about C except for "doesnt have > this" or "Can be poorly done using function pointers" > > Do we have a sort of definitive list on the comparison points? > > Dan > > On Mon, Jan 5, 2009 at 12:49 PM, Ian Bicking wrote: >> >> Brian Ray wrote: >>> >>> 1) A presentation more capable than Carl or myself to do an >>> introduction to Py3K. Is there anyone local (or remote who will travel) >>> willing to present on this very important topic? Any core Python people out >>> there? It would be great if we can have: overview, examples, and a FAQ >>> section. This can be sliced and diced anyway we like: between multiple >>> speakers or all at once. I just feel it is our duty to address this topic. >>> If nobody is found I will make due. But, please, help me look. >>> >>> 2) Secondly, Those willing to to quick (15 min) comparisons to >>> Python to any other language. Like I said, the rough list is started. I >>> would really like to get 10 or some, some serious and some not so serious. >>> There *WILL* be a couple of areas each presenter will need to address. This >>> should be really fun. >> >> Is this going to be too much material for one meeting? We've been going a >> little long on presentations, and this one seems more ambitious than most. >> >> >> -- >> Ian Bicking : ianb at colorstudy.com : http://blog.ianbicking.org >> _______________________________________________ >> Chicago mailing list >> Chicago at python.org >> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago > > > _______________________________________________ > Chicago mailing list > Chicago at python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago > > -- sheila From ianb at colorstudy.com Mon Jan 5 20:08:07 2009 From: ianb at colorstudy.com (Ian Bicking) Date: Mon, 05 Jan 2009 13:08:07 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] ChiPy Needs your Help! In-Reply-To: References: <65ACC318-CD63-4660-BB0F-70A2A54C6BC2@sent.com> <49625653.9050103@colorstudy.com> <3db160680901051053l1a4849e7x1d00d1d61458e53e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <49625A97.6090505@colorstudy.com> sheila miguez wrote: > It's ambitious so it would be good to get a list. I thought we were > going to focus on dynamic languages, but with c and java et al it > might be too ambitious. > > For tcl I was hoping to hear about tclkits vs eggs since I hear that eggs suck. What's interesting would depend on the language, no? I only want to hear about interesting stuff. If tclkits are interesting, I'd like to hear about them. How about as a comparison point: how is the language interestingly better than Python? As an example: "it's faster" might be a case of "better" but it isn't really "interesting" (though maybe a short discussion of how type declarations enable runtime optimizations might be interesting -- I just don't think a laundry list of advantages is interesting). For instance, if I talked about Logo I'd probably talk only about its advantages as a teaching language. For Smalltalk there's the persistent image, and how it breaks down the difference between code and objects. -- Ian Bicking : ianb at colorstudy.com : http://blog.ianbicking.org From dgriff1 at gmail.com Mon Jan 5 20:49:36 2009 From: dgriff1 at gmail.com (Daniel Griffin) Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2009 13:49:36 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] ChiPy Needs your Help! In-Reply-To: <49625A97.6090505@colorstudy.com> References: <65ACC318-CD63-4660-BB0F-70A2A54C6BC2@sent.com> <49625653.9050103@colorstudy.com> <3db160680901051053l1a4849e7x1d00d1d61458e53e@mail.gmail.com> <49625A97.6090505@colorstudy.com> Message-ID: <3db160680901051149x4a283214gd70f9f795ab18ae6@mail.gmail.com> This is a pretty interesting discussion by itself. What makes a language good? I guess i'm more interested in how a language will make my life easier. This is pretty much why I wanted to do C. C is THE baseline language. In the current day its "kinda cross-platform assembly". So how hard is it to make a database driven app or maintain cross platform code? What kind typing/containers does the language provide? Can you use OO design or create functional code? What kind of issues does this language have? I dont think anyone will be blown away by C, but it will make an interesting comparison with other languages like Java or tcl and that's why I volunteered to show it. Also, most people nowadays dont learn about the magic of direct memory access and the amazing/terrible things you can do. If the consensus is to re-focus on dynamic/interpeted/scripting-ish languages i wont mind. Dan On Mon, Jan 5, 2009 at 1:08 PM, Ian Bicking wrote: > sheila miguez wrote: > >> It's ambitious so it would be good to get a list. I thought we were >> going to focus on dynamic languages, but with c and java et al it >> might be too ambitious. >> >> For tcl I was hoping to hear about tclkits vs eggs since I hear that eggs >> suck. >> > > What's interesting would depend on the language, no? I only want to hear > about interesting stuff. If tclkits are interesting, I'd like to hear about > them. > > How about as a comparison point: how is the language interestingly better > than Python? As an example: "it's faster" might be a case of "better" but > it isn't really "interesting" (though maybe a short discussion of how type > declarations enable runtime optimizations might be interesting -- I just > don't think a laundry list of advantages is interesting). > > For instance, if I talked about Logo I'd probably talk only about its > advantages as a teaching language. For Smalltalk there's the persistent > image, and how it breaks down the difference between code and objects. > > -- > Ian Bicking : ianb at colorstudy.com : http://blog.ianbicking.org > _______________________________________________ > Chicago mailing list > Chicago at python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From shekay at pobox.com Mon Jan 5 20:57:25 2009 From: shekay at pobox.com (sheila miguez) Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2009 13:57:25 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] ChiPy Needs your Help! In-Reply-To: <3db160680901051149x4a283214gd70f9f795ab18ae6@mail.gmail.com> References: <65ACC318-CD63-4660-BB0F-70A2A54C6BC2@sent.com> <49625653.9050103@colorstudy.com> <3db160680901051053l1a4849e7x1d00d1d61458e53e@mail.gmail.com> <49625A97.6090505@colorstudy.com> <3db160680901051149x4a283214gd70f9f795ab18ae6@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: I don't mind hearing your take on C. I love the memory stuff. I felt pretty shaky when I moved to languages that used garbage collection. It seems so wild and crazy. and I loved being able to debug things by going directly to the memory and looking at the results. I could see exactly how the memory was allocated and what was dumped there. and I could jump the program counter around. and and it was a blast. someone told me I have a case of the Mondays, sorry guys. On Mon, Jan 5, 2009 at 1:49 PM, Daniel Griffin wrote: > This is a pretty interesting discussion by itself. What makes a language > good? I guess i'm more interested in how a language will make my life > easier. > > This is pretty much why I wanted to do C. C is THE baseline language. In the > current day its "kinda cross-platform assembly". So how hard is it to make > a database driven app or maintain cross platform code? What kind > typing/containers does the language provide? Can you use OO design or create > functional code? What kind of issues does this language have? > > I dont think anyone will be blown away by C, but it will make an interesting > comparison with other languages like Java or tcl and that's why I > volunteered to show it. Also, most people nowadays dont learn about the > magic of direct memory access and the amazing/terrible things you can do. > > If the consensus is to re-focus on dynamic/interpeted/scripting-ish > languages i wont mind. > > Dan > > > > > On Mon, Jan 5, 2009 at 1:08 PM, Ian Bicking wrote: >> >> sheila miguez wrote: >>> >>> It's ambitious so it would be good to get a list. I thought we were >>> going to focus on dynamic languages, but with c and java et al it >>> might be too ambitious. >>> >>> For tcl I was hoping to hear about tclkits vs eggs since I hear that eggs >>> suck. >> >> What's interesting would depend on the language, no? I only want to hear >> about interesting stuff. If tclkits are interesting, I'd like to hear about >> them. >> >> How about as a comparison point: how is the language interestingly better >> than Python? As an example: "it's faster" might be a case of "better" but >> it isn't really "interesting" (though maybe a short discussion of how type >> declarations enable runtime optimizations might be interesting -- I just >> don't think a laundry list of advantages is interesting). >> >> For instance, if I talked about Logo I'd probably talk only about its >> advantages as a teaching language. For Smalltalk there's the persistent >> image, and how it breaks down the difference between code and objects. >> >> -- >> Ian Bicking : ianb at colorstudy.com : http://blog.ianbicking.org >> _______________________________________________ >> Chicago mailing list >> Chicago at python.org >> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago > > > _______________________________________________ > Chicago mailing list > Chicago at python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago > > -- sheila From bray at sent.com Mon Jan 5 20:57:41 2009 From: bray at sent.com (Brian Ray) Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2009 13:57:41 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] ChiPy Needs your Help! In-Reply-To: <49625653.9050103@colorstudy.com> References: <65ACC318-CD63-4660-BB0F-70A2A54C6BC2@sent.com> <49625653.9050103@colorstudy.com> Message-ID: <60B1CF29-965D-4561-8BAC-B6654CD7E4A0@sent.com> On Jan 5, 2009, at 12:49 PM, Ian Bicking wrote: > > Is this going to be too much material for one meeting? We've been > going a little long on presentations, and this one seems more > ambitious than most. I will be coming up with some strict timelines for each lightening talk. Literally, we are going to stop-watch these talks. When time is up... the speaker must sit down. The presenter can do whatever they want for the most of that time. However, there are a couple of questions they must answer. I will be making a list and sending this directly to those talking, shortly. It may also be best to have each talker not use a computer. It would be cooler to have someone fill out rows (one per languages) with those questions as columns and project this instead. We will end up with a language comparison spreadsheet. Yeah, this will be a bit of a mess. But, it will be fun. Sure there may be some flames, but think we can keep these contained burns. Let's see how it goes. Perhaps it will be a huge mess or our best meeting yet... I am willing to take that chance. I certainly see where we can roll this into separate ChiPy meetings on two languages per in the future. Brian Ray PS Ruby, JAVA, and Groovy was just added to the list -> From shekay at pobox.com Mon Jan 5 21:24:14 2009 From: shekay at pobox.com (sheila miguez) Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2009 14:24:14 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] ChiPy Needs your Help! In-Reply-To: <60B1CF29-965D-4561-8BAC-B6654CD7E4A0@sent.com> References: <65ACC318-CD63-4660-BB0F-70A2A54C6BC2@sent.com> <49625653.9050103@colorstudy.com> <60B1CF29-965D-4561-8BAC-B6654CD7E4A0@sent.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Jan 5, 2009 at 1:57 PM, Brian Ray wrote: > > On Jan 5, 2009, at 12:49 PM, Ian Bicking wrote: > >> >> Is this going to be too much material for one meeting? We've been going a >> little long on presentations, and this one seems more ambitious than most. > > > I will be coming up with some strict timelines for each lightening talk. > Literally, we are going to stop-watch these talks. When time is up... the > speaker must sit down. Will we have time for q&a? -- sheila From hsu.feihong at yahoo.com Mon Jan 5 21:31:10 2009 From: hsu.feihong at yahoo.com (Feihong Hsu) Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2009 12:31:10 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Chicago] ChiPy Needs your Help! In-Reply-To: <65ACC318-CD63-4660-BB0F-70A2A54C6BC2@sent.com> Message-ID: <248965.2825.qm@web34803.mail.mud.yahoo.com> I would be willing to do a quick comparison of Python and Boo. But if the number of language comparisons is already too much, I wouldn't mind getting bumped to next month. --- On Mon, 1/5/09, Brian Ray wrote: From: Brian Ray Subject: [Chicago] ChiPy Needs your Help! To: "The Chicago Python Users Group" Date: Monday, January 5, 2009, 9:30 AM Thursday's Meeting will be our best yet. Nonetheless, the format will be an ambitious one. I need your help, ASAP. It looks like we will finally get an language comparison lightening talk session. Yay! I started an outline of or Topics: What I really need is two things: 1) A presentation more capable than Carl or myself to do an introduction to Py3K. Is there anyone local (or remote who will travel) willing to present on this very important topic? Any core Python people out there? It would be great if we can have: overview, examples, and a FAQ section. This can be sliced and diced anyway we like: between multiple speakers or all at once. I just feel it is our duty to address this topic. If nobody is found I will make due. But, please, help me look. 2) Secondly, Those willing to to quick (15 min) comparisons to Python to any other language. Like I said, the rough list is started. I would really like to get 10 or some, some serious and some not so serious. There *WILL* be a couple of areas each presenter will need to address. This should be really fun. We have a great new venue Roosevelt University Historic Auditorium Building on Michigan Avenue and Congress--I am also the host since it is my alma mater. Everyone please try and contribute to make this the best meeting yet and to welcome 2009. Thanks, Brian Ray _______________________________________________ Chicago mailing list Chicago at python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ianb at colorstudy.com Mon Jan 5 21:33:20 2009 From: ianb at colorstudy.com (Ian Bicking) Date: Mon, 05 Jan 2009 14:33:20 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] ChiPy Needs your Help! In-Reply-To: References: <65ACC318-CD63-4660-BB0F-70A2A54C6BC2@sent.com> <49625653.9050103@colorstudy.com> <60B1CF29-965D-4561-8BAC-B6654CD7E4A0@sent.com> Message-ID: <49626E90.7040604@colorstudy.com> sheila miguez wrote: > On Mon, Jan 5, 2009 at 1:57 PM, Brian Ray wrote: >> On Jan 5, 2009, at 12:49 PM, Ian Bicking wrote: >> >>> Is this going to be too much material for one meeting? We've been going a >>> little long on presentations, and this one seems more ambitious than most. >> >> I will be coming up with some strict timelines for each lightening talk. >> Literally, we are going to stop-watch these talks. When time is up... the >> speaker must sit down. > > Will we have time for q&a? After everyone is done, maybe we do a Q&A with everyone and all languages together? -- Ian Bicking : ianb at colorstudy.com : http://blog.ianbicking.org From abb2104 at columbia.edu Mon Jan 5 21:33:23 2009 From: abb2104 at columbia.edu (abb2104 at columbia.edu) Date: Mon, 05 Jan 2009 15:33:23 -0500 Subject: [Chicago] [jobs] Cyberworksmedia Group Message-ID: <20090105153323.rd2yyyj6880g8wco@cubmail.cc.columbia.edu> Cyberworks Media Group is a professional, comprehensive Web services and Internet technology firm. We harness the power of technology and interactive media to reengineer business processes and provide innovative solutions to businesses and organizations pursuing a competitive edge. We are currently seeking a Web Programmer / Developer to join our team. The Web Programmer/Developer works with our technical team in coordinating multiple large-scale web projects for a variety of industry leading clients. Responsibilities include: ? Coordinating and participating in the programming, implementation, testing, and support of web-based projects using .NET, Python, PHP, AJAX, CSS, MySQL, and Open Source. ? Programming, developing, and producing data-driven web applications and web sites using the latest technology solutions and software; ? Consulting with clients and the account team to ensure the use of effective Internet-based technologies for enterprise business applications. REQUIREMENTS Candidates should be experienced developing dynamic web based LINUX and WIN applications and should have a strong understanding of various languages .NET, Python, PHP, CSS, MySQL, SQL Server, PostGres, Open Source, etc.). A BS or MS in Computer Science or Computer Engineering is required. Other areas of expertise are listed below. Minimum 2 years Web development experience E-commerce Content Management Python, PHP, .NET Web Applications & Open Source - Django a huge plus! Apache and Microsoft IIS SQL Team Player with excellent communication skills Project Management Excellent low-level Linux knowledge Familiarity with relational databases (MySQL, SQL Server, Oracle) as well as experience developing client/server applications using relational databases. Experience developing Web-accessible applications Experience with HTML and HTTP server software. A firm understanding of TCP/IP and network programming experience. We understand that few candidates have all of these skills, but if you have a few of them, we want to talk to you. These are full time positions with competitive salaries. We are a fast-paced, rapidly growing company which provides an exciting working environment and challenging work. Cyber Works Media is an Equal Opportunity Employer. Visit our website for details - www.cyberworksmedia.com From david.durham.jr at gmail.com Mon Jan 5 22:09:23 2009 From: david.durham.jr at gmail.com (David Durham) Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2009 15:09:23 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] ChiPy Needs your Help! In-Reply-To: <49626E90.7040604@colorstudy.com> References: <65ACC318-CD63-4660-BB0F-70A2A54C6BC2@sent.com> <49625653.9050103@colorstudy.com> <60B1CF29-965D-4561-8BAC-B6654CD7E4A0@sent.com> <49626E90.7040604@colorstudy.com> Message-ID: >> Will we have time for q&a? > > After everyone is done, maybe we do a Q&A with everyone and all languages > together? Gee, how are we going to get all these languages into one room together? If whitespace showed up, people would be like, "Oh, he was there .. I didn't notice. What was he doing, just dicking around?" I did manage to switch my topic from Whitespace to Groovy on the chipy page. BR keeps signing me up for topics I don't want / am not able to present on. Very sneaky. Could be the greatest ever.. -Dave From bray at sent.com Mon Jan 5 22:18:39 2009 From: bray at sent.com (Brian Ray) Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2009 15:18:39 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] ChiPy Needs your Help! In-Reply-To: References: <65ACC318-CD63-4660-BB0F-70A2A54C6BC2@sent.com> <49625653.9050103@colorstudy.com> <60B1CF29-965D-4561-8BAC-B6654CD7E4A0@sent.com> <49626E90.7040604@colorstudy.com> Message-ID: <9BEA7F9C-AB48-4314-9322-9246F072B4EC@sent.com> On Jan 5, 2009, at 3:09 PM, David Durham wrote: > I did manage to switch my topic from Whitespace to Groovy on the chipy > page. BR keeps signing me up for topics I don't want / am not able to > present on. Very sneaky. Personally, I was a bit amused by the "whitespace" language. hmmm... could make diff's pretty hard ;) :) Brian Ray From david.durham.jr at gmail.com Mon Jan 5 22:51:54 2009 From: david.durham.jr at gmail.com (David Durham) Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2009 15:51:54 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] ChiPy Needs your Help! In-Reply-To: <9BEA7F9C-AB48-4314-9322-9246F072B4EC@sent.com> References: <65ACC318-CD63-4660-BB0F-70A2A54C6BC2@sent.com> <49625653.9050103@colorstudy.com> <60B1CF29-965D-4561-8BAC-B6654CD7E4A0@sent.com> <49626E90.7040604@colorstudy.com> <9BEA7F9C-AB48-4314-9322-9246F072B4EC@sent.com> Message-ID: >> I did manage to switch my topic from Whitespace to Groovy on the chipy >> page. BR keeps signing me up for topics I don't want / am not able to >> present on. Very sneaky. > > Personally, I was a bit amused by the "whitespace" language. hmmm... could > make diff's pretty hard ;) Well it has some commonality with python in that whitespace is obviously significant. Some have said that Whitespace "went too far," but those people just don't have enough time on their hands. -Dave From aleksandr.goretoy at gmail.com Mon Jan 5 22:55:18 2009 From: aleksandr.goretoy at gmail.com (alex goretoy) Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2009 21:55:18 +0000 Subject: [Chicago] [jobs] Cyberworksmedia Group In-Reply-To: <20090105153323.rd2yyyj6880g8wco@cubmail.cc.columbia.edu> References: <20090105153323.rd2yyyj6880g8wco@cubmail.cc.columbia.edu> Message-ID: I'm willing to travel. If the salary is right and I can pay for my living arrangements and have some for extra to save. Here is my resume. My last position was at Google. http://www.uploading.com/files/QWHLBMLP/Alex_I._Goretoy_resume.10.03.08.pdf.html Please Note, resume is kinda outdated,pdf format and Has some typos. -Alex Goretoy http://www.alexgoretoy.com On Mon, Jan 5, 2009 at 8:33 PM, wrote: > edia Group is a professional, comprehensive Web services and Internet > technology firm. We harness the power of technology and interactive media to > reengineer business processes and provide innovative solutions to businesses > and organizations pursuing a competitive edge. We are currently seeking a > Web Programmer / Developer to join our team. > > The Web Programmer/Developer works with our technical team in coordinating > multiple large-scale web projects for a variety of industry leading clients. > Responsibilities include: > > ? Coordinating and participating in the programming, implementation, > testing, and support of web-based projects using .NET, Python, PHP, AJAX, > CSS, MySQL, a > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bradyc at google.com Mon Jan 5 22:59:12 2009 From: bradyc at google.com (Brady Cox) Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2009 15:59:12 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] [jobs] Cyberworksmedia Group In-Reply-To: References: <20090105153323.rd2yyyj6880g8wco@cubmail.cc.columbia.edu> Message-ID: <2dfd89af0901051359m550bc97al19807679c8e2f038@mail.gmail.com> If I may... probably shouldn't be posting this to the list... On Mon, Jan 5, 2009 at 3:55 PM, alex goretoy wrote: > I'm willing to travel. If the salary is right and I can pay for my living > arrangements and have some for extra to save. > > Here is my resume. My last position was at Google. > > http://www.uploading.com/files/QWHLBMLP/Alex_I._Goretoy_resume.10.03.08.pdf.html > > Please Note, resume is kinda outdated,pdf format and Has some typos. > > -Alex Goretoy > http://www.alexgoretoy.com > > > > On Mon, Jan 5, 2009 at 8:33 PM, wrote: >> >> edia Group is a professional, comprehensive Web services and Internet >> technology firm. We harness the power of technology and interactive media to >> reengineer business processes and provide innovative solutions to businesses >> and organizations pursuing a competitive edge. We are currently seeking a >> Web Programmer / Developer to join our team. >> >> The Web Programmer/Developer works with our technical team in coordinating >> multiple large-scale web projects for a variety of industry leading clients. >> Responsibilities include: >> >> ? Coordinating and participating in the programming, implementation, >> testing, and support of web-based projects using .NET, Python, PHP, AJAX, >> CSS, MySQL, a > > _______________________________________________ > Chicago mailing list > Chicago at python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago > > -- Brady Cox I've recently lost my signature. If found please contact me at this email address. Reward. From aleksandr.goretoy at gmail.com Mon Jan 5 22:59:17 2009 From: aleksandr.goretoy at gmail.com (alex goretoy) Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2009 21:59:17 +0000 Subject: [Chicago] [jobs] Cyberworksmedia Group In-Reply-To: References: <20090105153323.rd2yyyj6880g8wco@cubmail.cc.columbia.edu> Message-ID: OOPS, sorry that link is dead. http://docs.google.com/Edit?tab=view&docid=dc734pt9_25ch4cdvdm I already added abb2104 at columbia.edu to view this file. -Alex Goretoy http://www.alexgoretoy.com On Mon, Jan 5, 2009 at 9:55 PM, alex goretoy wrote: > I'm willing to travel. If the salary is right and I can pay for my living > arrangements and have some for extra to save. > > Here is my resume. My last position was at Google. > > > http://www.uploading.com/files/QWHLBMLP/Alex_I._Goretoy_resume.10.03.08.pdf.html > > Please Note, resume is kinda outdated,pdf format and Has some typos. > > -Alex Goretoy > http://www.alexgoretoy.com > > > > > On Mon, Jan 5, 2009 at 8:33 PM, wrote: > >> edia Group is a professional, comprehensive Web services and Internet >> technology firm. We harness the power of technology and interactive media to >> reengineer business processes and provide innovative solutions to businesses >> and organizations pursuing a competitive edge. We are currently seeking a >> Web Programmer / Developer to join our team. >> >> The Web Programmer/Developer works with our technical team in coordinating >> multiple large-scale web projects for a variety of industry leading clients. >> Responsibilities include: >> >> ? Coordinating and participating in the programming, implementation, >> testing, and support of web-based projects using .NET, Python, PHP, AJAX, >> CSS, MySQL, a >> > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From aleksandr.goretoy at gmail.com Mon Jan 5 23:07:41 2009 From: aleksandr.goretoy at gmail.com (alex goretoy) Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2009 22:07:41 +0000 Subject: [Chicago] [jobs] Cyberworksmedia Group In-Reply-To: <2dfd89af0901051359m550bc97al19807679c8e2f038@mail.gmail.com> References: <20090105153323.rd2yyyj6880g8wco@cubmail.cc.columbia.edu> <2dfd89af0901051359m550bc97al19807679c8e2f038@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Sorry. I just need a job. I won't do that again. I hope to not get in trouble or something. Can you please explain why? -Alex Goretoy http://www.alexgoretoy.com somebodywhocarez at gmail.com On Mon, Jan 5, 2009 at 9:59 PM, Brady Cox wrote: > If I may... probably shouldn't be posting this to the list... > > On Mon, Jan 5, 2009 at 3:55 PM, alex goretoy > wrote: > > I'm willing to travel. If the salary is right and I can pay for my living > > arrangements and have some for extra to save. > > > > Here is my resume. My last position was at Google. > > > > > http://www.uploading.com/files/QWHLBMLP/Alex_I._Goretoy_resume.10.03.08.pdf.html > > > > Please Note, resume is kinda outdated,pdf format and Has some typos. > > > > -Alex Goretoy > > http://www.alexgoretoy.com > > > > > > > > On Mon, Jan 5, 2009 at 8:33 PM, wrote: > >> > >> edia Group is a professional, comprehensive Web services and Internet > >> technology firm. We harness the power of technology and interactive > media to > >> reengineer business processes and provide innovative solutions to > businesses > >> and organizations pursuing a competitive edge. We are currently seeking > a > >> Web Programmer / Developer to join our team. > >> > >> The Web Programmer/Developer works with our technical team in > coordinating > >> multiple large-scale web projects for a variety of industry leading > clients. > >> Responsibilities include: > >> > >> ? Coordinating and participating in the programming, implementation, > >> testing, and support of web-based projects using .NET, Python, PHP, > AJAX, > >> CSS, MySQL, a > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Chicago mailing list > > Chicago at python.org > > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago > > > > > > > > -- > Brady Cox > I've recently lost my signature. If found please contact me at this > email address. Reward. > _______________________________________________ > Chicago mailing list > Chicago at python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bray at sent.com Mon Jan 5 23:09:05 2009 From: bray at sent.com (Brian Ray) Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2009 16:09:05 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] Venue Adjustment Message-ID: In some ways, we have upgraded to down the street from the Auditorium Building: Roosevelt University, Gage Building, 18 S. Michigan Ave, 5th floor This is where this month's meeting will be held. We do have Projector. Food and Drink is welcome. I have not got a sponsor for food yet, but this may happen, as well. BTW, The Gage Building is located across the street from the waterfall park . Just walk in and take the elevators to 5th floor. I will wait until tomorrow to send the official meeting response. I want to get as many Languages in as we can. Hey, where is FORTRAN? Brian Ray From bradyc at google.com Mon Jan 5 23:09:54 2009 From: bradyc at google.com (Brady Cox) Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2009 16:09:54 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] [jobs] Cyberworksmedia Group In-Reply-To: References: <20090105153323.rd2yyyj6880g8wco@cubmail.cc.columbia.edu> <2dfd89af0901051359m550bc97al19807679c8e2f038@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <2dfd89af0901051409o29e2b783sd10b36668a936cf4@mail.gmail.com> Not a company thing or anything, I just didn't think you wanted to spam your personal detals/conversation with this recruiter to everyone on the mailing list. On Mon, Jan 5, 2009 at 4:07 PM, alex goretoy wrote: > Sorry. I just need a job. I won't do that again. I hope to not get in > trouble or something. Can you please explain why? > > -Alex Goretoy > http://www.alexgoretoy.com > somebodywhocarez at gmail.com > > > On Mon, Jan 5, 2009 at 9:59 PM, Brady Cox wrote: >> >> If I may... probably shouldn't be posting this to the list... >> >> On Mon, Jan 5, 2009 at 3:55 PM, alex goretoy >> wrote: >> > I'm willing to travel. If the salary is right and I can pay for my >> > living >> > arrangements and have some for extra to save. >> > >> > Here is my resume. My last position was at Google. >> > >> > >> > http://www.uploading.com/files/QWHLBMLP/Alex_I._Goretoy_resume.10.03.08.pdf.html >> > >> > Please Note, resume is kinda outdated,pdf format and Has some typos. >> > >> > -Alex Goretoy >> > http://www.alexgoretoy.com >> > >> > >> > >> > On Mon, Jan 5, 2009 at 8:33 PM, wrote: >> >> >> >> edia Group is a professional, comprehensive Web services and Internet >> >> technology firm. We harness the power of technology and interactive >> >> media to >> >> reengineer business processes and provide innovative solutions to >> >> businesses >> >> and organizations pursuing a competitive edge. We are currently seeking >> >> a >> >> Web Programmer / Developer to join our team. >> >> >> >> The Web Programmer/Developer works with our technical team in >> >> coordinating >> >> multiple large-scale web projects for a variety of industry leading >> >> clients. >> >> Responsibilities include: >> >> >> >> ? Coordinating and participating in the programming, implementation, >> >> testing, and support of web-based projects using .NET, Python, PHP, >> >> AJAX, >> >> CSS, MySQL, a >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > Chicago mailing list >> > Chicago at python.org >> > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago >> > >> > >> >> >> >> -- >> Brady Cox >> I've recently lost my signature. If found please contact me at this >> email address. Reward. >> _______________________________________________ >> Chicago mailing list >> Chicago at python.org >> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago > > > _______________________________________________ > Chicago mailing list > Chicago at python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago > > -- Brady Cox I've recently lost my signature. If found please contact me at this email address. Reward. From fred at polgardy.com Mon Jan 5 23:12:52 2009 From: fred at polgardy.com (Frederick Polgardy) Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2009 16:12:52 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] Venue Adjustment In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <253b55880901051412p201aed41m66298189fa7a6852@mail.gmail.com> Lisp? Haskell? OCaml? Scala? Clojure? On Mon, Jan 5, 2009 at 4:09 PM, Brian Ray wrote: > > I will wait until tomorrow to send the official meeting response. I want to > get as many Languages in as we can. Hey, where is FORTRAN? > > Brian Ray > -- Science answers questions; philosophy questions answers. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maney at two14.net Mon Jan 5 23:23:39 2009 From: maney at two14.net (Martin Maney) Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2009 16:23:39 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] Capistrano alternatives In-Reply-To: <49616184.3000902@colorstudy.com> References: <1356868190.2499381230917109468.JavaMail.root@mail-3.01.com> <53b9568a0901021511o76f9df49n16cb90782c5266eb@mail.gmail.com> <20090104051529.GB16799@furrr.two14.net> <49616184.3000902@colorstudy.com> Message-ID: <20090105222339.GA28381@furrr.two14.net> On Sun, Jan 04, 2009 at 07:25:24PM -0600, Ian Bicking wrote: > Lawyers are bullshit. Not half as bullshit as asking a bunch of non-lawyers for legal advice, which I was trying to avoid saying in so many words. > The ABSOLUTE WORST CASE is that the developers of Fabric will be > annoyed that you are using their code in a closed source system, and > they'll ask you to open your code or stop using Fabric. If you are a Are you the copyright owner of Fabric? I truly have no idea. If you aren't, this is, yes, in line with the usual outcome, but it's also just so much hot air if you cannot speak for them. I may have read too much into the OP's query - whether justified or not, I thought there might be commercial considerations involved (perhaps since he said he'd read the GPL, which so few bother to do). But I'm saddened to see you suggesting, apparently, that he should just do what he wants to and not worry about violating a license since it won't cost him much. BTW, if he's invested a good deal of time and effort in setting things up using Fabric and has some compelling reason not to choose the "GPL everything" solution, then that cost could turn out not to be so small after all... > then you might also burn some social capital. That's all you risk, and > if you ask the Fabric people up front how they interpret the GPL then > you don't even risk that. Any other prediction is simply false. That's a good point - a clear statement of how the copyright holders interpret the specific application would be a fine idea. A good lawyer might have suggested this. > Lawyers probably won't tell you this, which is why you shouldn't ask a > lawyer. Well, Sturgeon's Law, sure. I guess it can be hard to find a *good* lawyer. :-/ -- Not on the wealthy, who buy only what they want when they want it, was the vast superstructure of industry founded and built up, but on those who, aching for a luxury beyond their reach and for a leisure forever denied them, could be bullied or wheedled into spending their few hardly won shillings on whatever might give them, if only for a moment, a leisured and luxurious illusion. -- Dorothy Sayers, _Murder Must Advertise_ From aleksandr.goretoy at gmail.com Mon Jan 5 23:26:17 2009 From: aleksandr.goretoy at gmail.com (alex goretoy) Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2009 22:26:17 +0000 Subject: [Chicago] [jobs] Cyberworksmedia Group In-Reply-To: <2dfd89af0901051409o29e2b783sd10b36668a936cf4@mail.gmail.com> References: <20090105153323.rd2yyyj6880g8wco@cubmail.cc.columbia.edu> <2dfd89af0901051359m550bc97al19807679c8e2f038@mail.gmail.com> <2dfd89af0901051409o29e2b783sd10b36668a936cf4@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Yes, good point. Well stated. Thank you Brady. I forgot to reply instead of reply all. Sorry. -Alex Goretoy http://www.alexgoretoy.com somebodywhocarez at gmail.com On Mon, Jan 5, 2009 at 10:09 PM, Brady Cox wrote: > ot a company thing or anything, I just didn't think you wanted to > spam your persona > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From shekay at pobox.com Mon Jan 5 23:48:00 2009 From: shekay at pobox.com (sheila miguez) Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2009 16:48:00 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] ChiPy Needs your Help! In-Reply-To: <9BEA7F9C-AB48-4314-9322-9246F072B4EC@sent.com> References: <65ACC318-CD63-4660-BB0F-70A2A54C6BC2@sent.com> <49625653.9050103@colorstudy.com> <60B1CF29-965D-4561-8BAC-B6654CD7E4A0@sent.com> <49626E90.7040604@colorstudy.com> <9BEA7F9C-AB48-4314-9322-9246F072B4EC@sent.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Jan 5, 2009 at 3:18 PM, Brian Ray wrote: > > On Jan 5, 2009, at 3:09 PM, David Durham wrote: > >> I did manage to switch my topic from Whitespace to Groovy on the chipy >> page. BR keeps signing me up for topics I don't want / am not able to >> present on. Very sneaky. > > Personally, I was a bit amused by the "whitespace" language. hmmm... could > make diff's pretty hard ;) > > :) Brian Ray doh, forgot to turn off ignore whitespace again. -- sheila From shekay at pobox.com Mon Jan 5 23:48:50 2009 From: shekay at pobox.com (sheila miguez) Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2009 16:48:50 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] Venue Adjustment In-Reply-To: <253b55880901051412p201aed41m66298189fa7a6852@mail.gmail.com> References: <253b55880901051412p201aed41m66298189fa7a6852@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Chris or Cosmin could probably do clojure. On Mon, Jan 5, 2009 at 4:12 PM, Frederick Polgardy wrote: > Lisp? Haskell? OCaml? Scala? Clojure? > > On Mon, Jan 5, 2009 at 4:09 PM, Brian Ray wrote: >> >> I will wait until tomorrow to send the official meeting response. I want >> to get as many Languages in as we can. Hey, where is FORTRAN? >> >> Brian Ray > > -- > Science answers questions; philosophy questions answers. > > _______________________________________________ > Chicago mailing list > Chicago at python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago > > -- sheila From shekay at pobox.com Mon Jan 5 23:50:07 2009 From: shekay at pobox.com (sheila miguez) Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2009 16:50:07 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] Venue Adjustment In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, Jan 5, 2009 at 4:09 PM, Brian Ray wrote: > I will wait until tomorrow to send the official meeting response. I want to > get as many Languages in as we can. Hey, where is FORTRAN? maybe a physicist in the audience could give a talk on FORTRAN 77. -- sheila From chris.mcavoy at gmail.com Mon Jan 5 23:50:45 2009 From: chris.mcavoy at gmail.com (Chris McAvoy) Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2009 16:50:45 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] Venue Adjustment In-Reply-To: References: <253b55880901051412p201aed41m66298189fa7a6852@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <3096c19d0901051450t2585240bl260a34c8ddba9229@mail.gmail.com> If my talk would limited to "I got Clojure working in Emacs, I'm the coolest!" I could do it. If the talk was _at all about the actual Clojure language_ I couldn't. ;) Chris On Mon, Jan 5, 2009 at 4:48 PM, sheila miguez wrote: > Chris or Cosmin could probably do clojure. > > On Mon, Jan 5, 2009 at 4:12 PM, Frederick Polgardy wrote: >> Lisp? Haskell? OCaml? Scala? Clojure? >> >> On Mon, Jan 5, 2009 at 4:09 PM, Brian Ray wrote: >>> >>> I will wait until tomorrow to send the official meeting response. I want >>> to get as many Languages in as we can. Hey, where is FORTRAN? >>> >>> Brian Ray >> >> -- >> Science answers questions; philosophy questions answers. >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Chicago mailing list >> Chicago at python.org >> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago >> >> > > > > -- > sheila > _______________________________________________ > Chicago mailing list > Chicago at python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago > From mdipierro at cs.depaul.edu Tue Jan 6 00:00:06 2009 From: mdipierro at cs.depaul.edu (Massimo Di Pierro) Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2009 17:00:06 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] Venue Adjustment In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: A physicist in the audience decided 13 years ago it was time to move on to C++. ;-) Massimo On Jan 5, 2009, at 4:50 PM, sheila miguez wrote: > On Mon, Jan 5, 2009 at 4:09 PM, Brian Ray wrote: > >> I will wait until tomorrow to send the official meeting response. I >> want to >> get as many Languages in as we can. Hey, where is FORTRAN? > > maybe a physicist in the audience could give a talk on FORTRAN 77. > > -- > sheila > _______________________________________________ > Chicago mailing list > Chicago at python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago From ianb at colorstudy.com Tue Jan 6 00:12:27 2009 From: ianb at colorstudy.com (Ian Bicking) Date: Mon, 05 Jan 2009 17:12:27 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] Capistrano alternatives In-Reply-To: <20090105222339.GA28381@furrr.two14.net> References: <1356868190.2499381230917109468.JavaMail.root@mail-3.01.com> <53b9568a0901021511o76f9df49n16cb90782c5266eb@mail.gmail.com> <20090104051529.GB16799@furrr.two14.net> <49616184.3000902@colorstudy.com> <20090105222339.GA28381@furrr.two14.net> Message-ID: <496293DB.9010502@colorstudy.com> Martin Maney wrote: > On Sun, Jan 04, 2009 at 07:25:24PM -0600, Ian Bicking wrote: >> Lawyers are bullshit. > > Not half as bullshit as asking a bunch of non-lawyers for legal advice, > which I was trying to avoid saying in so many words. > >> The ABSOLUTE WORST CASE is that the developers of Fabric will be >> annoyed that you are using their code in a closed source system, and >> they'll ask you to open your code or stop using Fabric. If you are a > > Are you the copyright owner of Fabric? I truly have no idea. If you > aren't, this is, yes, in line with the usual outcome, but it's also > just so much hot air if you cannot speak for them. It's in line with all past disputes about GPL violations. I don't know of any exceptions, I pay attention to such cases, and there really aren't that many disputes total around the GPL. Given consistency among *all* past experiences, it's reasonable to make predictions about future risks. Also, I'm far more capable of predicting how a developer will respond than most lawyers. Perhaps because lawyers give proper lawyerly advice, which means they have to cover their butts, and I'm giving free, without warrantee, disinterested (well, somewhat disinterested) advice based on reasonable predictions of risk. > I may have read too much into the OP's query - whether justified or > not, I thought there might be commercial considerations involved > (perhaps since he said he'd read the GPL, which so few bother to do). > But I'm saddened to see you suggesting, apparently, that he should just > do what he wants to and not worry about violating a license since it > won't cost him much. BTW, if he's invested a good deal of time and > effort in setting things up using Fabric and has some compelling reason > not to choose the "GPL everything" solution, then that cost could turn > out not to be so small after all... You *never* have to GPL everything in response to the GPL. If you are distributing encumbered code to other people, you may have to disencumber it. I suppose it's possible that the people receiving the code might actually force you to do so -- I haven't really heard of this, but that party would be more justified in asserting their rights than the Fabric license holders. That party would probably be your paying customers, and so if you are giving them royalty-free rights to your code it wouldn't be a big deal anyway. >> then you might also burn some social capital. That's all you risk, and >> if you ask the Fabric people up front how they interpret the GPL then >> you don't even risk that. Any other prediction is simply false. > > That's a good point - a clear statement of how the copyright holders > interpret the specific application would be a fine idea. A good lawyer > might have suggested this. I've gotten weird pushback from lawyers that statements of my intent aren't meaningful compared the license itself (despite the LGPL and GPL often being unclear anyway). I read this as bullshit, and it's made me wary of lawyers as good predictors of legal issues. (If you ask me about my licensing, and I say I'm not going to sue you, what more do you need?) >> Lawyers probably won't tell you this, which is why you shouldn't ask a >> lawyer. > > Well, Sturgeon's Law, sure. I guess it can be hard to find a *good* > lawyer. :-/ Which is why I think "ask a lawyer" is mostly stop energy, not really constructive. It's just not going to happen, or if it does then the lawyer will just add more stop energy. The law is *our* law, it doesn't belong to lawyers, and people shouldn't have to constantly defer to professionals. -- Ian Bicking : ianb at colorstudy.com : http://blog.ianbicking.org From ken at stox.org Tue Jan 6 00:32:06 2009 From: ken at stox.org (Kenneth P. Stox) Date: Mon, 05 Jan 2009 17:32:06 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] Venue Adjustment In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1231198326.11829.32.camel@stox.dyndns.org> On Mon, 2009-01-05 at 16:50 -0600, sheila miguez wrote: > On Mon, Jan 5, 2009 at 4:09 PM, Brian Ray wrote: > > > I will wait until tomorrow to send the official meeting response. I want to > > get as many Languages in as we can. Hey, where is FORTRAN? > > maybe a physicist in the audience could give a talk on FORTRAN 77. The physicists are running Fortran 9X these days. From shekay at pobox.com Tue Jan 6 01:21:57 2009 From: shekay at pobox.com (sheila miguez) Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2009 18:21:57 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] Venue Adjustment In-Reply-To: <1231198326.11829.32.camel@stox.dyndns.org> References: <1231198326.11829.32.camel@stox.dyndns.org> Message-ID: On Mon, Jan 5, 2009 at 5:32 PM, Kenneth P. Stox wrote: > On Mon, 2009-01-05 at 16:50 -0600, sheila miguez wrote: >> On Mon, Jan 5, 2009 at 4:09 PM, Brian Ray wrote: >> >> > I will wait until tomorrow to send the official meeting response. I want to >> > get as many Languages in as we can. Hey, where is FORTRAN? >> >> maybe a physicist in the audience could give a talk on FORTRAN 77. > > The physicists are running Fortran 9X these days. used to spend time with physicists who couldn't switch over to 9x because of all the libraries in f77. but that was over 10 years ago, so they're probably all switched by now. -- sheila From bjgreenberg at gmail.com Tue Jan 6 01:47:23 2009 From: bjgreenberg at gmail.com (Brian J. Greenberg) Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2009 18:47:23 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] ChiPy on Google Calendar Message-ID: Hi All, I'm not sure who set up the ChiPy shared calendar on Google (great idea by the way) but it should either be updated/maintained or removed. It's had the wrong information about the location of the monthly meetings for at least a couple months now. I'd hate to see a new person trying to show up for the meeting go to 20 West Kinzie Street only to find no one there. I love the idea of a common calendar we can subscribe to. Can we set up a ical like subscription link on chipy.org? Brian J. Greenberg http://briangreenberg.net bjg at acm.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From carl at personnelware.com Tue Jan 6 01:49:31 2009 From: carl at personnelware.com (Carl Karsten) Date: Mon, 05 Jan 2009 18:49:31 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] to lawer or not Was: something unrelated In-Reply-To: <496293DB.9010502@colorstudy.com> References: <1356868190.2499381230917109468.JavaMail.root@mail-3.01.com> <53b9568a0901021511o76f9df49n16cb90782c5266eb@mail.gmail.com> <20090104051529.GB16799@furrr.two14.net> <49616184.3000902@colorstudy.com> <20090105222339.GA28381@furrr.two14.net> <496293DB.9010502@colorstudy.com> Message-ID: <4962AA9B.4090203@personnelware.com> Ian Bicking wrote: > Martin Maney wrote: >> On Sun, Jan 04, 2009 at 07:25:24PM -0600, Ian Bicking wrote: >>> Lawyers are bullshit. >> >> Not half as bullshit as asking a bunch of non-lawyers for legal advice, >> which I was trying to avoid saying in so many words. >> >>> The ABSOLUTE WORST CASE is that the developers of Fabric will be >>> annoyed that you are using their code in a closed source system, and >>> they'll ask you to open your code or stop using Fabric. If you are a >> >> Are you the copyright owner of Fabric? I truly have no idea. If you >> aren't, this is, yes, in line with the usual outcome, but it's also >> just so much hot air if you cannot speak for them. > > It's in line with all past disputes about GPL violations. I don't know > of any exceptions, I pay attention to such cases, and there really > aren't that many disputes total around the GPL. Given consistency among > *all* past experiences, it's reasonable to make predictions about future > risks. > > Also, I'm far more capable of predicting how a developer will respond > than most lawyers. Perhaps because lawyers give proper lawyerly advice, > which means they have to cover their butts, and I'm giving free, without > warrantee, disinterested (well, somewhat disinterested) advice based on > reasonable predictions of risk. I am pretty sure you are breaking the law. If you doubt me, I will find some support for this. This does not mean I don't want to hear your opinion. It helps me decide how much I want to worry about these things. I am using some gpl code as part of a BSDed project. so far it is just a dependency, but the upcoming python bindings haven't been done yet, and I may have to patch/fork the code, which probably is not quite right, and I will send a "do you care?" to the author, but I would think when he sees what I am doing there won't be any problem. Reportlab won't use gpl code in it's code base, so I sent an email to the author of the code asking if they would release it under whatever reportlab folks wanted. Some people suggest they are being over cautious. > >> I may have read too much into the OP's query - whether justified or >> not, I thought there might be commercial considerations involved >> (perhaps since he said he'd read the GPL, which so few bother to do). >> But I'm saddened to see you suggesting, apparently, that he should just >> do what he wants to and not worry about violating a license since it >> won't cost him much. BTW, if he's invested a good deal of time and >> effort in setting things up using Fabric and has some compelling reason >> not to choose the "GPL everything" solution, then that cost could turn >> out not to be so small after all... > > You *never* have to GPL everything in response to the GPL. If you are > distributing encumbered code to other people, you may have to > disencumber it. I suppose it's possible that the people receiving the > code might actually force you to do so -- I haven't really heard of > this, but that party would be more justified in asserting their rights > than the Fabric license holders. That party would probably be your > paying customers, and so if you are giving them royalty-free rights to > your code it wouldn't be a big deal anyway. > >>> then you might also burn some social capital. That's all you risk, >>> and if you ask the Fabric people up front how they interpret the GPL >>> then you don't even risk that. Any other prediction is simply false. >> >> That's a good point - a clear statement of how the copyright holders >> interpret the specific application would be a fine idea. A good lawyer >> might have suggested this. > > I've gotten weird pushback from lawyers that statements of my intent > aren't meaningful compared the license itself (despite the LGPL and GPL > often being unclear anyway). I read this as bullshit, and it's made me > wary of lawyers as good predictors of legal issues. (If you ask me > about my licensing, and I say I'm not going to sue you, what more do you > need?) If I cared enough to ask, I would care enough to get it in writing. and it would be a waste of time if the writing wasn't something I felt was properly written, which I am not qualified to gauge, so I would hire someone who was. > >>> Lawyers probably won't tell you this, which is why you shouldn't ask >>> a lawyer. >> >> Well, Sturgeon's Law, sure. I guess it can be hard to find a *good* >> lawyer. :-/ > > Which is why I think "ask a lawyer" is mostly stop energy, not really > constructive. It's just not going to happen, or if it does then the > lawyer will just add more stop energy. The law is *our* law, it doesn't > belong to lawyers, and people shouldn't have to constantly defer to > professionals. Um... I own my pipes and the tree, but when the two conspire against me I call a professional. Joe plumber owns a computer. If Joe wants a program written, shouldn't he defer to a professional? Carl K From ianb at colorstudy.com Tue Jan 6 02:09:57 2009 From: ianb at colorstudy.com (Ian Bicking) Date: Mon, 05 Jan 2009 19:09:57 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] to lawer or not Was: something unrelated In-Reply-To: <4962AA9B.4090203@personnelware.com> References: <1356868190.2499381230917109468.JavaMail.root@mail-3.01.com> <53b9568a0901021511o76f9df49n16cb90782c5266eb@mail.gmail.com> <20090104051529.GB16799@furrr.two14.net> <49616184.3000902@colorstudy.com> <20090105222339.GA28381@furrr.two14.net> <496293DB.9010502@colorstudy.com> <4962AA9B.4090203@personnelware.com> Message-ID: <4962AF65.2020909@colorstudy.com> Carl Karsten wrote: > Ian Bicking wrote: >> Martin Maney wrote: >>> On Sun, Jan 04, 2009 at 07:25:24PM -0600, Ian Bicking wrote: >>>> Lawyers are bullshit. >>> >>> Not half as bullshit as asking a bunch of non-lawyers for legal advice, >>> which I was trying to avoid saying in so many words. >>> >>>> The ABSOLUTE WORST CASE is that the developers of Fabric will be >>>> annoyed that you are using their code in a closed source system, and >>>> they'll ask you to open your code or stop using Fabric. If you are a >>> >>> Are you the copyright owner of Fabric? I truly have no idea. If you >>> aren't, this is, yes, in line with the usual outcome, but it's also >>> just so much hot air if you cannot speak for them. >> >> It's in line with all past disputes about GPL violations. I don't >> know of any exceptions, I pay attention to such cases, and there >> really aren't that many disputes total around the GPL. Given >> consistency among *all* past experiences, it's reasonable to make >> predictions about future risks. >> >> Also, I'm far more capable of predicting how a developer will respond >> than most lawyers. Perhaps because lawyers give proper lawyerly >> advice, which means they have to cover their butts, and I'm giving >> free, without warrantee, disinterested (well, somewhat disinterested) >> advice based on reasonable predictions of risk. > > I am pretty sure you are breaking the law. If you doubt me, I will find > some support for this. Lawyers tell all kinds of stories. I don't believe them. Has someone at some time gotten in trouble for giving legal advice? Probably. If I was calling myself a lawyer would that be illegal? Probably so too, though from what I can tell you really have to be over the top before something actually happens. Also, I'm willing to assume the risk that Garrett will sue me. I think he's the only one here who could. Is it criminal to give legal advice? That seems unlikely. You can sue anyone for anything. Can I get sued for giving legal advice? Sure, I can get sued for anything. > This does not mean I don't want to hear your opinion. It helps me > decide how much I want to worry about these things. I am using some > gpl code as part of a BSDed project. so far it is just a dependency, > but the upcoming python bindings haven't been done yet, and I may have > to patch/fork the code, which probably is not quite right, and I will > send a "do you care?" to the author, but I would think when he sees what > I am doing there won't be any problem. > > Reportlab won't use gpl code in it's code base, so I sent an email to > the author of the code asking if they would release it under whatever > reportlab folks wanted. Some people suggest they are being over cautious. If they have an intent to use the code in a proprietary manner, then sure they should care. I think Reportlab actually does have that intention. But getting stressed out about the GPL when considering sysadminish tasks, and at the point when you are just analyzing something, isn't worth it IMHO. I'm worried some people have a knee-jerk reaction about the GPL that is based on unrealistic claims of its "viral" nature. >>> I may have read too much into the OP's query - whether justified or >>> not, I thought there might be commercial considerations involved >>> (perhaps since he said he'd read the GPL, which so few bother to do). >>> But I'm saddened to see you suggesting, apparently, that he should just >>> do what he wants to and not worry about violating a license since it >>> won't cost him much. BTW, if he's invested a good deal of time and >>> effort in setting things up using Fabric and has some compelling reason >>> not to choose the "GPL everything" solution, then that cost could turn >>> out not to be so small after all... >> >> You *never* have to GPL everything in response to the GPL. If you are >> distributing encumbered code to other people, you may have to >> disencumber it. I suppose it's possible that the people receiving the >> code might actually force you to do so -- I haven't really heard of >> this, but that party would be more justified in asserting their rights >> than the Fabric license holders. That party would probably be your >> paying customers, and so if you are giving them royalty-free rights to >> your code it wouldn't be a big deal anyway. >> >>>> then you might also burn some social capital. That's all you risk, >>>> and if you ask the Fabric people up front how they interpret the >>>> GPL then you don't even risk that. Any other prediction is simply >>>> false. >>> >>> That's a good point - a clear statement of how the copyright holders >>> interpret the specific application would be a fine idea. A good lawyer >>> might have suggested this. >> >> I've gotten weird pushback from lawyers that statements of my intent >> aren't meaningful compared the license itself (despite the LGPL and >> GPL often being unclear anyway). I read this as bullshit, and it's >> made me wary of lawyers as good predictors of legal issues. (If you >> ask me about my licensing, and I say I'm not going to sue you, what >> more do you need?) > > If I cared enough to ask, I would care enough to get it in writing. and > it would be a waste of time if the writing wasn't something I felt was > properly written, which I am not qualified to gauge, so I would hire > someone who was. Email is writing, this was all email. It's a statement. Statements matter, you can use them in court, you don't have to have them notarized first. It's not plausible that I'm going to deny writing the email, and its language was unambiguous. But the overhead of involving a lawyer kills progress regardless of how easily the issues can be resolved. >>>> Lawyers probably won't tell you this, which is why you shouldn't ask >>>> a lawyer. >>> >>> Well, Sturgeon's Law, sure. I guess it can be hard to find a *good* >>> lawyer. :-/ >> >> Which is why I think "ask a lawyer" is mostly stop energy, not really >> constructive. It's just not going to happen, or if it does then the >> lawyer will just add more stop energy. The law is *our* law, it >> doesn't belong to lawyers, and people shouldn't have to constantly >> defer to professionals. > > Um... I own my pipes and the tree, but when the two conspire against me > I call a professional. Joe plumber owns a computer. If Joe wants a > program written, shouldn't he defer to a professional? Maybe. But if he doesn't, more power to him. I certainly wouldn't stop him. I am also entirely opposed to the idea of programming being a certified profession like engineering. -- Ian Bicking : ianb at colorstudy.com : http://blog.ianbicking.org From bray at sent.com Tue Jan 6 02:12:55 2009 From: bray at sent.com (Brian Ray) Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2009 19:12:55 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] ChiPy on Google Calendar In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <80ACAE03-93B2-4DEE-8059-357BD2C59A69@sent.com> On Jan 5, 2009, at 6:47 PM, Brian J. Greenberg wrote: > Hi All, > > I'm not sure who set up the ChiPy shared calendar on Google (great > idea by the way) but it should either be updated/maintained or > removed. It's had the wrong information about the location of the > monthly meetings for at least a couple months now. I'd hate to see > a new person trying to show up for the meeting go to 20 West Kinzie > Street only to find no one there. > I think that was set up by Milan (CC'd). We should probably remove it or something. > I love the idea of a common calendar we can subscribe to. Can we > set up a ical like subscription link on chipy.org? > I do not see why not, but I think we need more details. Brian Ray From jason at jrandolph.com Tue Jan 6 02:33:17 2009 From: jason at jrandolph.com (Jason Huggins) Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2009 19:33:17 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] Capistrano alternatives In-Reply-To: <496293DB.9010502@colorstudy.com> References: <1356868190.2499381230917109468.JavaMail.root@mail-3.01.com> <53b9568a0901021511o76f9df49n16cb90782c5266eb@mail.gmail.com> <20090104051529.GB16799@furrr.two14.net> <49616184.3000902@colorstudy.com> <20090105222339.GA28381@furrr.two14.net> <496293DB.9010502@colorstudy.com> Message-ID: <53b9568a0901051733x3e20097bp532a24444b2491f1@mail.gmail.com> I think my best "next action" is to ask the Fabric guys if they would consider relicensing as LGPL or something else non-GPL. (Making my whole issue --whether legally a real issue or not-- moot.) I wanted to see what the "street opinion" was on the issue before I got a lawyer's opinion, but I can see I that I inadvertently incited a riot. :-) cheers, hugs From carl at personnelware.com Tue Jan 6 02:59:43 2009 From: carl at personnelware.com (Carl Karsten) Date: Mon, 05 Jan 2009 19:59:43 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] to lawer or not Was: something unrelated In-Reply-To: <4962AF65.2020909@colorstudy.com> References: <1356868190.2499381230917109468.JavaMail.root@mail-3.01.com> <53b9568a0901021511o76f9df49n16cb90782c5266eb@mail.gmail.com> <20090104051529.GB16799@furrr.two14.net> <49616184.3000902@colorstudy.com> <20090105222339.GA28381@furrr.two14.net> <496293DB.9010502@colorstudy.com> <4962AA9B.4090203@personnelware.com> <4962AF65.2020909@colorstudy.com> Message-ID: <4962BB0F.9030307@personnelware.com> Ian Bicking wrote: > Carl Karsten wrote: >> Ian Bicking wrote: >>> Martin Maney wrote: >>>> On Sun, Jan 04, 2009 at 07:25:24PM -0600, Ian Bicking wrote: >>>>> Lawyers are bullshit. >>>> >>>> Not half as bullshit as asking a bunch of non-lawyers for legal advice, >>>> which I was trying to avoid saying in so many words. >>>> >>>>> The ABSOLUTE WORST CASE is that the developers of Fabric will be >>>>> annoyed that you are using their code in a closed source system, and >>>>> they'll ask you to open your code or stop using Fabric. If you are a >>>> >>>> Are you the copyright owner of Fabric? I truly have no idea. If you >>>> aren't, this is, yes, in line with the usual outcome, but it's also >>>> just so much hot air if you cannot speak for them. >>> >>> It's in line with all past disputes about GPL violations. I don't >>> know of any exceptions, I pay attention to such cases, and there >>> really aren't that many disputes total around the GPL. Given >>> consistency among *all* past experiences, it's reasonable to make >>> predictions about future risks. >>> >>> Also, I'm far more capable of predicting how a developer will respond >>> than most lawyers. Perhaps because lawyers give proper lawyerly >>> advice, which means they have to cover their butts, and I'm giving >>> free, without warrantee, disinterested (well, somewhat disinterested) >>> advice based on reasonable predictions of risk. >> >> I am pretty sure you are breaking the law. If you doubt me, I will >> find some support for this. > > Lawyers tell all kinds of stories. I don't believe them. Has someone > at some time gotten in trouble for giving legal advice? Probably. If I > was calling myself a lawyer would that be illegal? Probably so too, > though from what I can tell you really have to be over the top before > something actually happens. > > Also, I'm willing to assume the risk that Garrett will sue me. I think > he's the only one here who could. > > Is it criminal to give legal advice? Yes. "He was arrested Tuesday on four counts of grand theft, one count of theft from an elder and one count of unauthorized practice of law." http://www.mercurynews.com/valley/ci_11265472 > That seems unlikely. You can sue > anyone for anything. Can I get sued for giving legal advice? Sure, I > can get sued for anything. > > >> This does not mean I don't want to hear your opinion. It helps me >> decide how much I want to worry about these things. I am using some >> gpl code as part of a BSDed project. so far it is just a dependency, >> but the upcoming python bindings haven't been done yet, and I may have >> to patch/fork the code, which probably is not quite right, and I will >> send a "do you care?" to the author, but I would think when he sees >> what I am doing there won't be any problem. >> >> Reportlab won't use gpl code in it's code base, so I sent an email to >> the author of the code asking if they would release it under whatever >> reportlab folks wanted. Some people suggest they are being over >> cautious. > > If they have an intent to use the code in a proprietary manner, then > sure they should care. I think Reportlab actually does have that > intention. But getting stressed out about the GPL when considering > sysadminish tasks, and at the point when you are just analyzing > something, isn't worth it IMHO. I'm worried some people have a > knee-jerk reaction about the GPL that is based on unrealistic claims of > its "viral" nature. Yeah, I have wondered about that - I hear "GPL infected" now and then. > > >>>> I may have read too much into the OP's query - whether justified or >>>> not, I thought there might be commercial considerations involved >>>> (perhaps since he said he'd read the GPL, which so few bother to do). >>>> But I'm saddened to see you suggesting, apparently, that he should just >>>> do what he wants to and not worry about violating a license since it >>>> won't cost him much. BTW, if he's invested a good deal of time and >>>> effort in setting things up using Fabric and has some compelling reason >>>> not to choose the "GPL everything" solution, then that cost could turn >>>> out not to be so small after all... >>> >>> You *never* have to GPL everything in response to the GPL. If you >>> are distributing encumbered code to other people, you may have to >>> disencumber it. I suppose it's possible that the people receiving >>> the code might actually force you to do so -- I haven't really heard >>> of this, but that party would be more justified in asserting their >>> rights than the Fabric license holders. That party would probably be >>> your paying customers, and so if you are giving them royalty-free >>> rights to your code it wouldn't be a big deal anyway. >>> >>>>> then you might also burn some social capital. That's all you risk, >>>>> and if you ask the Fabric people up front how they interpret the >>>>> GPL then you don't even risk that. Any other prediction is simply >>>>> false. >>>> >>>> That's a good point - a clear statement of how the copyright holders >>>> interpret the specific application would be a fine idea. A good lawyer >>>> might have suggested this. >>> >>> I've gotten weird pushback from lawyers that statements of my intent >>> aren't meaningful compared the license itself (despite the LGPL and >>> GPL often being unclear anyway). I read this as bullshit, and it's >>> made me wary of lawyers as good predictors of legal issues. (If you >>> ask me about my licensing, and I say I'm not going to sue you, what >>> more do you need?) >> >> If I cared enough to ask, I would care enough to get it in writing. >> and it would be a waste of time if the writing wasn't something I felt >> was properly written, which I am not qualified to gauge, so I would >> hire someone who was. > > Email is writing, this was all email. It's a statement. Statements > matter, you can use them in court, you don't have to have them notarized > first. It's not plausible that I'm going to deny writing the email, and > its language was unambiguous. If "I'm not going to sue you" would hold up in court, then I could walk all over you and there wouldn't be a thing you could do about it. other than say "that's not what I meant" which is very valid, and trying to extract out what you meant out of this thread would be more work that just doing it right the fist time. > But the overhead of involving a lawyer > kills progress regardless of how easily the issues can be resolved. The system does have it's pitfalls, but it's better than seeing if you float. > > >>>>> Lawyers probably won't tell you this, which is why you shouldn't >>>>> ask a lawyer. >>>> >>>> Well, Sturgeon's Law, sure. I guess it can be hard to find a *good* >>>> lawyer. :-/ >>> >>> Which is why I think "ask a lawyer" is mostly stop energy, not really >>> constructive. It's just not going to happen, or if it does then the >>> lawyer will just add more stop energy. The law is *our* law, it >>> doesn't belong to lawyers, and people shouldn't have to constantly >>> defer to professionals. >> >> Um... I own my pipes and the tree, but when the two conspire against >> me I call a professional. Joe plumber owns a computer. If Joe wants >> a program written, shouldn't he defer to a professional? > > Maybe. But if he doesn't, more power to him. I certainly wouldn't stop > him. What if your doctor said "this machine that goes bing to keep you alive... I had my son do the programming because the professional wanted the going rate. I think it will work, he's a great video game player." > I am also entirely opposed to the idea of programming being a > certified profession like engineering. I am with you on this. mainly because the field is evolving so fast the tests cant even come close to keeping up with what's current. I learned about trees and encryption, and what I know now is: use someone else's tree and encryption library. I wouldn't mind a syntax certification. at least for python, because I think it's reasonable. If I was going to hire a python programmer, I would like to know that they know the notation, and I don't really feel like coming up and administrating the test. Carl K From tcp at mac.com Tue Jan 6 03:12:16 2009 From: tcp at mac.com (Ted Pollari) Date: Mon, 05 Jan 2009 18:12:16 -0800 Subject: [Chicago] Capistrano alternatives In-Reply-To: <496293DB.9010502@colorstudy.com> References: <1356868190.2499381230917109468.JavaMail.root@mail-3.01.com> <53b9568a0901021511o76f9df49n16cb90782c5266eb@mail.gmail.com> <20090104051529.GB16799@furrr.two14.net> <49616184.3000902@colorstudy.com> <20090105222339.GA28381@furrr.two14.net> <496293DB.9010502@colorstudy.com> Message-ID: On Jan 5, 2009, at 3:12 PM, Ian Bicking wrote: > I've gotten weird pushback from lawyers that statements of my intent > aren't meaningful compared the license itself (despite the LGPL and > GPL often being unclear anyway). I read this as bullshit, and it's > made me wary of lawyers as good predictors of legal issues. (If you > ask me about my licensing, and I say I'm not going to sue you, what > more do you need?) It makes complete sense -- because no matter what you *say* you still have the right to bring a lawsuit unless the license is amended/ changed and therefore it's a liability. In the eyes of the law, the license *is* the statement of intent to give up the right to bring suit. Anything else isn't legally binding (heck, even licenses aren't always binding until they're tested.) So, to your question, if you say you're not going to sue me, what more do I need? Well, I, personally, trust you Ian, probably even enough to stake a good part of my livelihood on that trust, but in general, that's not a sustainable position, at least not when faced with the threat of lawsuits. It's all about risks and rewards vs. costs. In the end, lawyers are like guns -- they're weapons often wielded by people who fail to think before they cause damage. For the most part, lawyers don't cause issues on their own -- they're always working for someone who wants something. Don't go into a room of friends waving a gun around and expect them to remain friends -- but if you don't feel safe, by all means, you may well need one. Same thing goes with lawyers and threats of lawsuits. my take at least... -tcp From fred at polgardy.com Tue Jan 6 03:28:10 2009 From: fred at polgardy.com (Frederick Polgardy) Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2009 20:28:10 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] Venue Adjustment In-Reply-To: <3096c19d0901051450t2585240bl260a34c8ddba9229@mail.gmail.com> References: <253b55880901051412p201aed41m66298189fa7a6852@mail.gmail.com> <3096c19d0901051450t2585240bl260a34c8ddba9229@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <253b55880901051828r38ecaa1amf230dd0e81481d0d@mail.gmail.com> I've been playing around with Clojure a lot lately, in an extremely learning-oriented mode. I could probably field some basic questions about it. -Fred On Mon, Jan 5, 2009 at 4:50 PM, Chris McAvoy wrote: > If my talk would limited to "I got Clojure working in Emacs, I'm the > coolest!" I could do it. If the talk was _at all about the actual > Clojure language_ I couldn't. ;) > > Chris > > On Mon, Jan 5, 2009 at 4:48 PM, sheila miguez wrote: > > Chris or Cosmin could probably do clojure. > > > > On Mon, Jan 5, 2009 at 4:12 PM, Frederick Polgardy > wrote: > >> Lisp? Haskell? OCaml? Scala? Clojure? > >> > -- Science answers questions; philosophy questions answers. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From fred at polgardy.com Tue Jan 6 04:11:22 2009 From: fred at polgardy.com (Frederick Polgardy) Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2009 21:11:22 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] ChiPy Needs your Help! In-Reply-To: <60B1CF29-965D-4561-8BAC-B6654CD7E4A0@sent.com> References: <65ACC318-CD63-4660-BB0F-70A2A54C6BC2@sent.com> <49625653.9050103@colorstudy.com> <60B1CF29-965D-4561-8BAC-B6654CD7E4A0@sent.com> Message-ID: <253b55880901051911w1f1499efi13bf0bc444f1b5c5@mail.gmail.com> JavaScript should really be on this list as well, if not this time, then at a later date. I can field that also. -Fred On Mon, Jan 5, 2009 at 1:57 PM, Brian Ray wrote: > > On Jan 5, 2009, at 12:49 PM, Ian Bicking wrote: > > >> Is this going to be too much material for one meeting? We've been going a >> little long on presentations, and this one seems more ambitious than most. >> > > > I will be coming up with some strict timelines for each lightening talk. > Literally, we are going to stop-watch these talks. When time is up... the > speaker must sit down. > > The presenter can do whatever they want for the most of that time. However, > there are a couple of questions they must answer. I will be making a list > and sending this directly to those talking, shortly. It may also be best to > have each talker not use a computer. It would be cooler to have someone > fill out rows (one per languages) with those questions as columns and > project this instead. We will end up with a language comparison > spreadsheet. > > Yeah, this will be a bit of a mess. But, it will be fun. Sure there may be > some flames, but think we can keep these contained burns. Let's see how it > goes. Perhaps it will be a huge mess or our best meeting yet... I am willing > to take that chance. > > I certainly see where we can roll this into separate ChiPy meetings on two > languages per in the future. > > Brian Ray > > PS Ruby, JAVA, and Groovy was just added to the list -> > > > _______________________________________________ > Chicago mailing list > Chicago at python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago > -- Science answers questions; philosophy questions answers. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From david.durham.jr at gmail.com Tue Jan 6 04:22:22 2009 From: david.durham.jr at gmail.com (David Durham) Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2009 21:22:22 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] Call for Presentations for January Meeting In-Reply-To: References: <2B102301-B6D9-4FEF-AC11-070B151997A6@sent.com> <3db160680901031017k2747641av1019b11336681b79@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Sat, Jan 3, 2009 at 1:47 PM, Brian Ray wrote: > > On Jan 3, 2009, at 12:17 PM, Daniel Griffin wrote: > >> If we do language comparisons I would be willing to do 2 minutes of plain >> old C or something. > > > It might be a good idea to set up lightening talks on different > languages--meanwhile filling out a language comparison sheet by each > presenter. Each presenter will fill in the specific questions for that > particular language in comparison to Python. What's the actual status of this language comparison sheet? Is someone coming up with this outside of this mailing list or did I miss some other post about this topic? Here's an old article by Paul Graham containing a list of 9 things that made Lisp different: http://www.paulgraham.com/icad.html -Dave From bryan.oakley at gmail.com Tue Jan 6 04:35:59 2009 From: bryan.oakley at gmail.com (Bryan Oakley) Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2009 21:35:59 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] The Tcl guy can't make it Message-ID: <7d5312b00901051935l1a9d1a8cle96f1e3457074fcd@mail.gmail.com> Hi, I'm the guy Sheila suggested could talk a little about Tcl. Unfortunately I can't make it to the meeting this week so you'll probably have to strike Tcl from the agenda unless someone else wants to step up to the plate. I started working with Python at Orbitz a few months ago after doing Tcl almost exclusively for over a decade, and had been hoping to make a meeting or two to help improve my python skills. Unfortunately, half of all Thursdays are usually pretty bad for me and the other half of all Thursdays are nigh unto impossible, and this Thursday is one of the latter. Maybe some other time, I'm always glad to help improve awareness of Tcl and Tk. -- Bryan Oakley From ianb at colorstudy.com Tue Jan 6 04:46:23 2009 From: ianb at colorstudy.com (Ian Bicking) Date: Mon, 05 Jan 2009 21:46:23 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] Capistrano alternatives In-Reply-To: References: <1356868190.2499381230917109468.JavaMail.root@mail-3.01.com> <53b9568a0901021511o76f9df49n16cb90782c5266eb@mail.gmail.com> <20090104051529.GB16799@furrr.two14.net> <49616184.3000902@colorstudy.com> <20090105222339.GA28381@furrr.two14.net> <496293DB.9010502@colorstudy.com> Message-ID: <4962D40F.8030909@colorstudy.com> Ted Pollari wrote: > On Jan 5, 2009, at 3:12 PM, Ian Bicking wrote: >> I've gotten weird pushback from lawyers that statements of my intent >> aren't meaningful compared the license itself (despite the LGPL and >> GPL often being unclear anyway). I read this as bullshit, and it's >> made me wary of lawyers as good predictors of legal issues. (If you >> ask me about my licensing, and I say I'm not going to sue you, what >> more do you need?) > > > It makes complete sense -- because no matter what you *say* you still > have the right to bring a lawsuit unless the license is amended/changed > and therefore it's a liability. In the eyes of the law, the license > *is* the statement of intent to give up the right to bring suit. > Anything else isn't legally binding (heck, even licenses aren't always > binding until they're tested.) I can bring a suit just to be an asshole. And indeed, such assholery is common in some fields and in certain kinds of relationships. But I feel like it is slandering open source communities to imply that it is at all common there. It's not, in no small part because it is a community of individuals. When our relationships are mediated by professional figures like lawyers the community standards break down to everyone's detriment. Which is why I don't really like introducing lawyerly advice when it's unnecessary. You do have to be a little careful with the GPL and certain companies. MySQL in its day, for instance (not sure if the acquisition makes it better or worse). They have lawyers, paid and trained to be assholes, and you need professionals because that's just not in the constitution of most people, and we don't get extensive training to rearrange our morality. > So, to your question, if you say you're not going to sue me, what more > do I need? Well, I, personally, trust you Ian, probably even enough to > stake a good part of my livelihood on that trust, but in general, that's > not a sustainable position, at least not when faced with the threat of > lawsuits. It's all about risks and rewards vs. costs. > > In the end, lawyers are like guns -- they're weapons often wielded by > people who fail to think before they cause damage. For the most part, > lawyers don't cause issues on their own -- they're always working for > someone who wants something. > > Don't go into a room of friends waving a gun around and expect them to > remain friends -- but if you don't feel safe, by all means, you may well > need one. Same thing goes with lawyers and threats of lawsuits. I have recently been thinking of lawyers as the men-at-arms of our era. Some people with weapons use those weapons to protect people. But mostly weapons are used to oppress people. And I think law in the hands of professionals is kind of like this. Though this modern thuggery looks much more civilized of course, it's not like we haven't made *any* progress ;) Sorry, this is all getting more anti-lawyer than I really intended. I like quite a few lawyers personally. But the institution bothers me. It's better than a society ruled by thugs, which is the norm for modern societies where the rule of law isn't strong. But I can only hope this is a transitional time. Open source communities have been ahead on the curve on a lot of things, and I'd like to think we can be ahead of the curve on this too. -- Ian Bicking : ianb at colorstudy.com : http://blog.ianbicking.org From ianb at colorstudy.com Tue Jan 6 05:06:43 2009 From: ianb at colorstudy.com (Ian Bicking) Date: Mon, 05 Jan 2009 22:06:43 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] to lawer or not Was: something unrelated In-Reply-To: <4962BB0F.9030307@personnelware.com> References: <1356868190.2499381230917109468.JavaMail.root@mail-3.01.com> <53b9568a0901021511o76f9df49n16cb90782c5266eb@mail.gmail.com> <20090104051529.GB16799@furrr.two14.net> <49616184.3000902@colorstudy.com> <20090105222339.GA28381@furrr.two14.net> <496293DB.9010502@colorstudy.com> <4962AA9B.4090203@personnelware.com> <4962AF65.2020909@colorstudy.com> <4962BB0F.9030307@personnelware.com> Message-ID: <4962D8D3.2090102@colorstudy.com> (I'm trying to cut down my responses, as it's probably about time for the thread to wind down ;) Carl Karsten wrote: >> Is it criminal to give legal advice? > > Yes. > > "He was arrested Tuesday on four counts of grand theft, one count of > theft from an elder and one count of unauthorized practice of law." > http://www.mercurynews.com/valley/ci_11265472 He fraudulently claimed to be a lawyer and took money for it. Totally different ;) >> I'm worried some people have a >> knee-jerk reaction about the GPL that is based on unrealistic claims >> of its "viral" nature. > > Yeah, I have wondered about that - I hear "GPL infected" now and then. When you distribute software with the GPL, you have to give the people who receive the software the right to continue to redistribute it. You don't have to GPL license your work, though you do need to use something "GPL-compatible" (like BSD or MIT licenses). You only are giving that software with that license to the person who receives the code. You don't have to exclusively license the code under that license, and you don't lose copyright. Meaning you can turn around and make *your* code proprietary at any time, you just can't distribute it in that form until you've removed the GPL'd code. When there is a GPL violation the response has always been to ask the person distributing the code to make a choice: release their code under a GPL-compatible license, or remove the GPL code. There have been some times when the people receiving the code have asked for more (as with Tivo, I think?) but it hasn't really gone anywhere, and only the paying recipients of the code have even tried to assert that. -- Ian Bicking : ianb at colorstudy.com : http://blog.ianbicking.org From maney at two14.net Tue Jan 6 05:49:43 2009 From: maney at two14.net (Martin Maney) Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2009 22:49:43 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] Capistrano alternatives In-Reply-To: <496293DB.9010502@colorstudy.com> References: <1356868190.2499381230917109468.JavaMail.root@mail-3.01.com> <53b9568a0901021511o76f9df49n16cb90782c5266eb@mail.gmail.com> <20090104051529.GB16799@furrr.two14.net> <49616184.3000902@colorstudy.com> <20090105222339.GA28381@furrr.two14.net> <496293DB.9010502@colorstudy.com> Message-ID: <20090106044942.GA30067@furrr.two14.net> On Mon, Jan 05, 2009 at 05:12:27PM -0600, Ian Bicking wrote: > Also, I'm far more capable of predicting how a developer will respond > than most lawyers. Assuming a violation of the license terms. The reason for getting competent legal advice is to *avoid* that. > You *never* have to GPL everything in response to the GPL. If he *can't* release some of the source - maybe he used some proprietary components that are part of the whole thing, not all that unlikely if it's aimed at the commercial soft spot that is Windows - then he has no choice but to stop distributing until he can rearchitect around using Fabric and get an rewritten product going. That can cost a lot if it turns customers away. -- This is like making a car shorter by cutting off a few inches from each end with a Sawzall. Of course there's little benefit, because that's a dumb way to do it. -- Neil R. Ormos From maney at two14.net Tue Jan 6 05:55:38 2009 From: maney at two14.net (Martin Maney) Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2009 22:55:38 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] to lawer or not Was: something unrelated In-Reply-To: <4962BB0F.9030307@personnelware.com> References: <1356868190.2499381230917109468.JavaMail.root@mail-3.01.com> <53b9568a0901021511o76f9df49n16cb90782c5266eb@mail.gmail.com> <20090104051529.GB16799@furrr.two14.net> <49616184.3000902@colorstudy.com> <20090105222339.GA28381@furrr.two14.net> <496293DB.9010502@colorstudy.com> <4962AA9B.4090203@personnelware.com> <4962AF65.2020909@colorstudy.com> <4962BB0F.9030307@personnelware.com> Message-ID: <20090106045538.GB30067@furrr.two14.net> On Mon, Jan 05, 2009 at 07:59:43PM -0600, Carl Karsten wrote: > Ian Bicking wrote: >> something, isn't worth it IMHO. I'm worried some people have a >> knee-jerk reaction about the GPL that is based on unrealistic claims of >> its "viral" nature. > > Yeah, I have wondered about that - I hear "GPL infected" now and then. I'm starting to think that I ran into an Ian hot button. If that's the case, please understand that I was explaining that the GPL doesn't reach out and destroy your rights to people many years ago. If Ian and I still disagree about getting legal advice in a serious position, well, that's been done to death by now. -- The avoidance of idiocy should be the primary and constant concern of every intelligent person. -- Nero Wolfe From carl at personnelware.com Tue Jan 6 06:15:40 2009 From: carl at personnelware.com (Carl Karsten) Date: Mon, 05 Jan 2009 23:15:40 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] to lawer or not Was: something unrelated In-Reply-To: <4962D8D3.2090102@colorstudy.com> References: <1356868190.2499381230917109468.JavaMail.root@mail-3.01.com> <53b9568a0901021511o76f9df49n16cb90782c5266eb@mail.gmail.com> <20090104051529.GB16799@furrr.two14.net> <49616184.3000902@colorstudy.com> <20090105222339.GA28381@furrr.two14.net> <496293DB.9010502@colorstudy.com> <4962AA9B.4090203@personnelware.com> <4962AF65.2020909@colorstudy.com> <4962BB0F.9030307@personnelware.com> <4962D8D3.2090102@colorstudy.com> Message-ID: <4962E8FC.70605@personnelware.com> Ian Bicking wrote: > (I'm trying to cut down my responses, as it's probably about time for > the thread to wind down ;) > > Carl Karsten wrote: >>> Is it criminal to give legal advice? >> >> Yes. >> >> "He was arrested Tuesday on four counts of grand theft, one count of >> theft from an elder and one count of unauthorized practice of law." >> http://www.mercurynews.com/valley/ci_11265472 > > He fraudulently claimed to be a lawyer and took money for it. Totally > different ;) you better talk to a laser about that. > >>> I'm worried some people have a knee-jerk reaction about the GPL that >>> is based on unrealistic claims of its "viral" nature. >> >> Yeah, I have wondered about that - I hear "GPL infected" now and then. > > When you distribute software with the GPL, you have to give the people > who receive the software the right to continue to redistribute it. You > don't have to GPL license your work, though you do need to use something > "GPL-compatible" (like BSD or MIT licenses). You only are giving that > software with that license to the person who receives the code. You > don't have to exclusively license the code under that license, and you > don't lose copyright. Meaning you can turn around and make *your* code > proprietary at any time, you just can't distribute it in that form until > you've removed the GPL'd code. > > When there is a GPL violation the response has always been to ask the > person distributing the code to make a choice: release their code under > a GPL-compatible license, or remove the GPL code. There have been some > times when the people receiving the code have asked for more (as with > Tivo, I think?) but it hasn't really gone anywhere, and only the paying > recipients of the code have even tried to assert that. > I need a professional in ISpeak to tell me how that affects me. have your laser shot over here too. Carl K From jason at jrandolph.com Tue Jan 6 08:28:04 2009 From: jason at jrandolph.com (Jason Huggins) Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2009 01:28:04 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] Capistrano alternatives In-Reply-To: <53b9568a0901051733x3e20097bp532a24444b2491f1@mail.gmail.com> References: <1356868190.2499381230917109468.JavaMail.root@mail-3.01.com> <53b9568a0901021511o76f9df49n16cb90782c5266eb@mail.gmail.com> <20090104051529.GB16799@furrr.two14.net> <49616184.3000902@colorstudy.com> <20090105222339.GA28381@furrr.two14.net> <496293DB.9010502@colorstudy.com> <53b9568a0901051733x3e20097bp532a24444b2491f1@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <53b9568a0901052328v37a35a7dg7bfe2926b2fe6c59@mail.gmail.com> Maybe my worry about a GPL'd build tool 'infecting' my code is all much ado about nothing... Zed Shaw wrote a very nice summary of the license implications of his GPL3'd Python build tool called "Vellum": http://www.zedshaw.com/projects/vellum/index.html (See the "License" section) """ In more direct terms, the GPLv3 does not apply to any build specs (.vel) files you write since those are parsed, and does not apply to anything you build with Vellum (since building is not linking)""" Okay, thread closed. Goodnight. :-) cheers, hugs From bray at sent.com Tue Jan 6 16:33:25 2009 From: bray at sent.com (Brian Ray) Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2009 09:33:25 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] Language Comparison Lighting Talk Submissions Message-ID: <044989E4-3CC0-4A3E-97AE-0B513E638C2E@sent.com> If you wish to do a short comparison of Python and some other language (not already assigned on http://chipy.org) please have your submission in today by 4pm. You can: email to the list, put it on the wiki yourself, or email me off the list. At that time, the announcement for our January meeting will go out to the masses. We will leave just a couple more spots open for late submissions. If you are listed as presenter, you will receive a separate email describing the guidelines for presenting. It will include some questions you must answer and the time frame for your presentation. Do not start planning your presentation until you get this email, please. At the end we will be voting on the best presentation and open the floor for general discussion. Best presentation, not best language ;) So far, as of 9:30 AM here is the list: The Python Language Comparison Lighting Talks: * C - Daniel Griffin * tcl/tk [1] * Logo - Ian Bicking * Smalltalk -Ian Bicking * Groovy - David Durham * JAVA - Garrett Smith * Ruby - Frederick Polgardy * JavaScript - Frederick Polgardy * Boo - Feihong Hsu * - Brian Ray From swgithen at mtu.edu Tue Jan 6 16:37:25 2009 From: swgithen at mtu.edu (Steven Githens) Date: Tue, 06 Jan 2009 10:37:25 -0500 Subject: [Chicago] Language Comparison Lighting Talk Submissions In-Reply-To: <044989E4-3CC0-4A3E-97AE-0B513E638C2E@sent.com> References: <044989E4-3CC0-4A3E-97AE-0B513E638C2E@sent.com> Message-ID: <49637AB5.9030704@mtu.edu> This looks really awesome. Hoping someone can videorecord it for those of us that can't make it this month. Cheers, Steve Brian Ray wrote: > The Python Language Comparison Lighting Talks: > > * C - Daniel Griffin > * tcl/tk [1] > * Logo - Ian Bicking > * Smalltalk -Ian Bicking > * Groovy - David Durham > * JAVA - Garrett Smith > * Ruby - Frederick Polgardy > * JavaScript - Frederick Polgardy > * Boo - Feihong Hsu > * - > > > Brian Ray > > > > _______________________________________________ > Chicago mailing list > Chicago at python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago From carl at personnelware.com Tue Jan 6 17:00:42 2009 From: carl at personnelware.com (Carl Karsten) Date: Tue, 06 Jan 2009 10:00:42 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] Language Comparison Lighting Talk Submissions In-Reply-To: <49637AB5.9030704@mtu.edu> References: <044989E4-3CC0-4A3E-97AE-0B513E638C2E@sent.com> <49637AB5.9030704@mtu.edu> Message-ID: <4963802A.1070407@personnelware.com> Steven Githens wrote: > This looks really awesome. Hoping someone can videorecord it for those > of us that can't make it this month. I'll record if you remind me on IRC, and then monitor the stream and tell me when the audio flakes out :) seriously, you gonna be around to watch it live? Carl K From swgithen at mtu.edu Tue Jan 6 17:02:28 2009 From: swgithen at mtu.edu (Steven Githens) Date: Tue, 06 Jan 2009 11:02:28 -0500 Subject: [Chicago] Language Comparison Lighting Talk Submissions In-Reply-To: <4963802A.1070407@personnelware.com> References: <044989E4-3CC0-4A3E-97AE-0B513E638C2E@sent.com> <49637AB5.9030704@mtu.edu> <4963802A.1070407@personnelware.com> Message-ID: <49638094.8050805@mtu.edu> Carl Karsten wrote: > Steven Githens wrote: >> This looks really awesome. Hoping someone can videorecord it for >> those of us that can't make it this month. > > I'll record if you remind me on IRC, and then monitor the stream and > tell me when the audio flakes out :) > > seriously, you gonna be around to watch it live? > I likely won't be able to watch it live, but if whoever owns the chipy.blip.tv account posts it there I would definately check it out. -s > Carl K > _______________________________________________ > Chicago mailing list > Chicago at python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago From KBoers at leapfrogonline.com Tue Jan 6 17:04:03 2009 From: KBoers at leapfrogonline.com (Kevin Boers) Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2009 10:04:03 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] Language Comparison Lighting Talk Submissions In-Reply-To: <49638094.8050805@mtu.edu> Message-ID: Same here. On 1/6/09 10:02 AM, "Steven Githens" wrote: Carl Karsten wrote: > Steven Githens wrote: >> This looks really awesome. Hoping someone can videorecord it for >> those of us that can't make it this month. > > I'll record if you remind me on IRC, and then monitor the stream and > tell me when the audio flakes out :) > > seriously, you gonna be around to watch it live? > I likely won't be able to watch it live, but if whoever owns the chipy.blip.tv account posts it there I would definately check it out. -s > Carl K > _______________________________________________ > Chicago mailing list > Chicago at python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago _______________________________________________ Chicago mailing list Chicago at python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago Kevin P. Boers QA Manager 847-440-8381 Leapfrog Online 807 Greenwood Evanston, IL 60201 Main 847-492-1968 Fax 847-492-1990 kboers at leapfrogonline.com www.leapfrogonline.com ________________________________ CONFIDENTIALITY NOTE The document(s) accompanying this e-mail transmission, if any, and the e-mail transmittal message containing information from Leapfrog Online Customer Acquisition, LLC is confidential or privileged. The information is intended to be for the use of the individual(s) or entity(ies) named on this e-mail transmission message. If you are not the intended recipient, be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this e-mail is prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error, please immediately delete this e-mail and notify us by telephone of the error. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cosmin at offbytwo.com Tue Jan 6 17:27:53 2009 From: cosmin at offbytwo.com (Cosmin Stejerean) Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2009 10:27:53 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] Venue Adjustment In-Reply-To: References: <253b55880901051412p201aed41m66298189fa7a6852@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <383bbcce0901060827s364d4519q7bf1131a5ae9f547@mail.gmail.com> On Mon, Jan 5, 2009 at 4:48 PM, sheila miguez wrote: > Chris or Cosmin could probably do clojure. > I was thinking about covering Clojure but I had no idea how to do so in 5 minutes, especially if I had to contrast it with Python the entire time. -- Cosmin Stejerean http://offbytwo.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bray at sent.com Tue Jan 6 17:39:09 2009 From: bray at sent.com (Brian Ray) Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2009 10:39:09 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] Venue Adjustment In-Reply-To: <383bbcce0901060827s364d4519q7bf1131a5ae9f547@mail.gmail.com> References: <253b55880901051412p201aed41m66298189fa7a6852@mail.gmail.com> <383bbcce0901060827s364d4519q7bf1131a5ae9f547@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Jan 6, 2009, at 10:27 AM, Cosmin Stejerean wrote: > On Mon, Jan 5, 2009 at 4:48 PM, sheila miguez > wrote: > Chris or Cosmin could probably do clojure. > > I was thinking about covering Clojure but I had no idea how to do so > in 5 minutes, especially if I had to contrast it with Python the > entire time. > The timeline will probably be longer than 5 min. More like 10-15 depending on how many languages we end up with. We will keep things very high level this time around. How is compiled / ran? Data types? Who owns? OO features? Is it a standard or have a enhance process (like PEPs)? Who uses? Standard Library Features? .... If there is interest in one lighting talk we can roll it out as a full presentation in a future ChiPy meeting. Cosmin, so are you in? Brian Ray From shekay at pobox.com Tue Jan 6 17:43:11 2009 From: shekay at pobox.com (sheila miguez) Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2009 10:43:11 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] Venue Adjustment In-Reply-To: References: <253b55880901051412p201aed41m66298189fa7a6852@mail.gmail.com> <383bbcce0901060827s364d4519q7bf1131a5ae9f547@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Jan 6, 2009 at 10:39 AM, Brian Ray wrote: > The timeline will probably be longer than 5 min. More like 10-15 depending > on how many languages we end up with. We will keep things very high level > this time around. How is compiled / ran? Data types? Who owns? OO features? > Is it a standard or have a enhance process (like PEPs)? Who uses? Standard > Library Features? .... If there is interest in one lighting talk we can > roll it out as a full presentation in a future ChiPy meeting. Ian's sensible comment on how the languages could be covered has +1 from me. I nominate him for providing agenda guidelines. -- sheila From bray at sent.com Tue Jan 6 17:45:40 2009 From: bray at sent.com (Brian Ray) Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2009 10:45:40 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] Venue Adjustment In-Reply-To: References: <253b55880901051412p201aed41m66298189fa7a6852@mail.gmail.com> <383bbcce0901060827s364d4519q7bf1131a5ae9f547@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Jan 6, 2009, at 10:43 AM, sheila miguez wrote: > On Tue, Jan 6, 2009 at 10:39 AM, Brian Ray wrote: > >> The timeline will probably be longer than 5 min. More like 10-15 >> depending >> on how many languages we end up with. We will keep things very >> high level >> this time around. How is compiled / ran? Data types? Who owns? OO >> features? >> Is it a standard or have a enhance process (like PEPs)? Who uses? >> Standard >> Library Features? .... If there is interest in one lighting talk >> we can >> roll it out as a full presentation in a future ChiPy meeting. > > Ian's sensible comment on how the languages could be covered has +1 > from me. I nominate him for providing agenda guidelines. I am ok with this, did Ian offer to run the meeting, as well? Ian? Brian Ray From g at rrett.us.com Tue Jan 6 19:33:52 2009 From: g at rrett.us.com (Garrett Smith) Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2009 12:33:52 -0600 (CST) Subject: [Chicago] Language Comparison Lighting Talk Submissions In-Reply-To: <1870934375.2129811231266289602.JavaMail.root@mail-3.01.com> Message-ID: <86714728.2134091231266832395.JavaMail.root@mail-3.01.com> ----- "Brian Ray" wrote: > If you are listed as presenter, you will receive a separate email > describing the guidelines for presenting. It will include some > questions you must answer and the time frame for your presentation. One of topics that I think would be interesting is to point out how various language features have influenced the design -- or even the "tao" -- of software created within the applicable community. For example, Java applications have a tendency to have high levels of OO constructs (I'll elaborate on Thursday). Erlang applications tend to focus on areas of concurrency and fault tolerance. PHP, decent for web apps. Perl, text processing. Etc. The strengths of the language tend to attract developers around one or more problem types and the solutions tend to look and feel a particular way. I think they also attract personality types. Brian, for example, has a very simple brain, which Python, a very simple language, fits nicely. I'd say the same for Pete, but he'd take it the wrong way. Brian will agree though, as he knows I share that characteristic :) From ianb at colorstudy.com Tue Jan 6 20:24:49 2009 From: ianb at colorstudy.com (Ian Bicking) Date: Tue, 06 Jan 2009 13:24:49 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] Venue Adjustment In-Reply-To: References: <253b55880901051412p201aed41m66298189fa7a6852@mail.gmail.com> <383bbcce0901060827s364d4519q7bf1131a5ae9f547@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4963B001.6040702@colorstudy.com> Brian Ray wrote: > > On Jan 6, 2009, at 10:43 AM, sheila miguez wrote: > >> On Tue, Jan 6, 2009 at 10:39 AM, Brian Ray wrote: >> >>> The timeline will probably be longer than 5 min. More like 10-15 >>> depending >>> on how many languages we end up with. We will keep things very high >>> level >>> this time around. How is compiled / ran? Data types? Who owns? OO >>> features? >>> Is it a standard or have a enhance process (like PEPs)? Who uses? >>> Standard >>> Library Features? .... If there is interest in one lighting talk we can >>> roll it out as a full presentation in a future ChiPy meeting. >> >> Ian's sensible comment on how the languages could be covered has +1 >> from me. I nominate him for providing agenda guidelines. > > > I am ok with this, did Ian offer to run the meeting, as well? Ian? I suppose I could run the meeting. Here's my current thoughts on an outline: 1. Why does this language exist? 2. What's cool about the language, that Python should steal? 3. What's cool about the language, that Python couldn't steal if it tried? 4. When should you think about using the language instead of Python? And maybe something with Garrett's suggestion, like: 5. How does the programming language affect how you think about programming? -- Ian Bicking : ianb at colorstudy.com : http://blog.ianbicking.org From cosmin at offbytwo.com Tue Jan 6 20:39:45 2009 From: cosmin at offbytwo.com (Cosmin Stejerean) Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2009 13:39:45 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] Venue Adjustment In-Reply-To: <4963B001.6040702@colorstudy.com> References: <253b55880901051412p201aed41m66298189fa7a6852@mail.gmail.com> <383bbcce0901060827s364d4519q7bf1131a5ae9f547@mail.gmail.com> <4963B001.6040702@colorstudy.com> Message-ID: <383bbcce0901061139m1a6c42c2w6de7f598e8018b6c@mail.gmail.com> On Tue, Jan 6, 2009 at 1:24 PM, Ian Bicking wrote: > > I suppose I could run the meeting. Here's my current thoughts on an > outline: > > 1. Why does this language exist? > 2. What's cool about the language, that Python should steal? > 3. What's cool about the language, that Python couldn't steal if it tried? > 4. When should you think about using the language instead of Python? > > And maybe something with Garrett's suggestion, like: > > 5. How does the programming language affect how you think about > programming? > > +1. I can definitely give an introduction to Clojure based on this outline. -- Cosmin Stejerean http://offbytwo.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bray at sent.com Tue Jan 6 20:43:24 2009 From: bray at sent.com (Brian Ray) Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2009 13:43:24 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] Venue Adjustment In-Reply-To: <4963B001.6040702@colorstudy.com> References: <253b55880901051412p201aed41m66298189fa7a6852@mail.gmail.com> <383bbcce0901060827s364d4519q7bf1131a5ae9f547@mail.gmail.com> <4963B001.6040702@colorstudy.com> Message-ID: On Jan 6, 2009, at 1:24 PM, Ian Bicking wrote: > Here's my current thoughts on an outline: > > 1. Why does this language exist? > 2. What's cool about the language, that Python should steal? > 3. What's cool about the language, that Python couldn't steal if it > tried? > 4. When should you think about using the language instead of Python? > 5. How does the programming language affect how you think about > programming? These are pretty good questions. I was thinking more along the lines of a comparison sheet like is it compiled. Should answer things that could help categorize the language, ie: For instance, Python is certainly not a Curly Bracket Language. It (according to this page) Python can be considered a Metaprogramming and not Multiparadigm language. Brian Ray From bray at sent.com Tue Jan 6 20:45:03 2009 From: bray at sent.com (Brian Ray) Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2009 13:45:03 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] Venue Adjustment In-Reply-To: <383bbcce0901061139m1a6c42c2w6de7f598e8018b6c@mail.gmail.com> References: <253b55880901051412p201aed41m66298189fa7a6852@mail.gmail.com> <383bbcce0901060827s364d4519q7bf1131a5ae9f547@mail.gmail.com> <4963B001.6040702@colorstudy.com> <383bbcce0901061139m1a6c42c2w6de7f598e8018b6c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <8D405E1E-1736-45B9-9F08-72D6785B6420@sent.com> On Jan 6, 2009, at 1:39 PM, Cosmin Stejerean wrote: > > +1. I can definitely give an introduction to Clojure based on this > outline. I added you to the list, thanks. Brian Ray From cosmin at offbytwo.com Tue Jan 6 21:08:10 2009 From: cosmin at offbytwo.com (Cosmin Stejerean) Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2009 14:08:10 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] Venue Adjustment In-Reply-To: References: <253b55880901051412p201aed41m66298189fa7a6852@mail.gmail.com> <383bbcce0901060827s364d4519q7bf1131a5ae9f547@mail.gmail.com> <4963B001.6040702@colorstudy.com> Message-ID: <383bbcce0901061208g196fd7d0sb628a228f8b65cb9@mail.gmail.com> On Tue, Jan 6, 2009 at 1:43 PM, Brian Ray wrote: > > On Jan 6, 2009, at 1:24 PM, Ian Bicking wrote: > > Here's my current thoughts on an outline: >> >> 1. Why does this language exist? >> 2. What's cool about the language, that Python should steal? >> 3. What's cool about the language, that Python couldn't steal if it tried? >> 4. When should you think about using the language instead of Python? >> 5. How does the programming language affect how you think about >> programming? >> > > > > These are pretty good questions. I was thinking more along the lines of a > comparison sheet like is it compiled. Should answer things that could help > categorize the language, ie: > > > > For instance, Python is certainly not a Curly Bracket Language. It > (according to this page) Python can be considered a Metaprogramming and not > Multiparadigm language. > While good for categorizing a language I'd find it extremely boring to sit through 10 language comparisons that discuss whether or not the language is compiled or its use of curly brackets. -- Cosmin Stejerean http://offbytwo.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mtemkin at speakeasy.net Tue Jan 6 21:59:24 2009 From: mtemkin at speakeasy.net (Marc Temkin) Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2009 14:59:24 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] Can you publicize our upcoming ACM event on multimedia websites In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2480D58AB2514D5694A1053130A27FF1@Dreamcatcher2> Can you publicize our upcoming ACM event on multimedia websites? Thanks. Related to your Thursday meeting: I will also try to attend this Thursdays' ChiPy. If I have some time, which may not happen, I could try to add to your language comparison with C#. Marc =========================== ACM 1/14/2009 =================================== Creating a Top Ranked Multimedia Blog and Web Site Jason Heath 1/14/09 Doublebass Blog www.doublebassblog.org http://contrabassconversations.com/ Come to our January 14, 2009 meeting to see how a person with a vision found the technology to realize his ideas that have made his site, doublebassblog.org #10 in the Top 51 Classical Music Sites according to the site Musical Perceptions using the Technorati ranking method. The presentation will tell you how Jason used Web 2.0 technologies to educate, entertain and inform a growing audience about his favorite subject, the double bass. Jason's' site, started as a service for his students, is a true multimedia site with articles, blogs, videos and extensive audio interviews with over a hundred internationally known jazz and classical bassists. With only the typical tech background of an arts student, Jason has since mastered the tools for podcasting, typography, and photography through such tools as Photoshop, Wordpress, PodPress, Skype, and various audio equipment and software. Jason is involved with every part of the site from content, interviews, advertising, system maintenance and choosing web hosting services. Jason will show us that quality writing and knowing your audience, along with presentation, is the critical element in a successful website. With that success, has come musical recognition, teaching opportunities and income from advertising and sales of site-related merchandise. Make sure that you read the article or listen to the podcast, My Car Caught Fire and Exploded! , which is available on the web or can be downloaded to your phone! Jason Heath is an active double bass performer, educator, blogger, and podcaster. His blogging and podcasting has been featured in the New Yorker, International Musician, Double Bassist Magazine, The Engaging Brand, and the Adjunct Advocate. He is on the board of directors for the International Society of Bassists, a member of the blogging network Inside the Arts, and is a staff writer for Bass Musician Magazine. 5:30 PM Buffet and Social Hour 6:30 PM Presentation Hosted by: Roosevelt University, downtown Chicago 430 S. Michigan Ave, Chicago, IL 60605 (nearest intersection: Congress and Michigan) Room 232 Cost (Includes Dinner & Program): Members: $10, Non-members: $12, Students with ID: $5 Website: www.acmchicago.org To make a reservation, use this form: http://spreadsheets.google.com/viewform?key=p-UVle2DaAnmJrMI4autHDw or send an e-mail to greg at neumarke.net or call Greg at 773-907-3308 (work) -----Original Message----- From: chicago-bounces+mtemkin=speakeasy.net at python.org [mailto:chicago-bounces+mtemkin=speakeasy.net at python.org] On Behalf Of chicago-request at python.org Sent: Tuesday, January 06, 2009 10:39 AM To: chicago at python.org Subject: Chicago Digest, Vol 41, Issue 18 Send Chicago mailing list submissions to chicago at python.org To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to chicago-request at python.org You can reach the person managing the list at chicago-owner at python.org When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of Chicago digest..." Today's Topics: 1. Language Comparison Lighting Talk Submissions (Brian Ray) 2. Re: Language Comparison Lighting Talk Submissions (Steven Githens) 3. Re: Language Comparison Lighting Talk Submissions (Carl Karsten) 4. Re: Language Comparison Lighting Talk Submissions (Steven Githens) 5. Re: Language Comparison Lighting Talk Submissions (Kevin Boers) 6. Re: Venue Adjustment (Cosmin Stejerean) 7. Re: Venue Adjustment (Brian Ray) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2009 09:33:25 -0600 From: Brian Ray Subject: [Chicago] Language Comparison Lighting Talk Submissions To: The Chicago Python Users Group Message-ID: <044989E4-3CC0-4A3E-97AE-0B513E638C2E at sent.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes If you wish to do a short comparison of Python and some other language (not already assigned on http://chipy.org) please have your submission in today by 4pm. You can: email to the list, put it on the wiki yourself, or email me off the list. At that time, the announcement for our January meeting will go out to the masses. We will leave just a couple more spots open for late submissions. If you are listed as presenter, you will receive a separate email describing the guidelines for presenting. It will include some questions you must answer and the time frame for your presentation. Do not start planning your presentation until you get this email, please. At the end we will be voting on the best presentation and open the floor for general discussion. Best presentation, not best language ;) So far, as of 9:30 AM here is the list: The Python Language Comparison Lighting Talks: * C - Daniel Griffin * tcl/tk [1] * Logo - Ian Bicking * Smalltalk -Ian Bicking * Groovy - David Durham * JAVA - Garrett Smith * Ruby - Frederick Polgardy * JavaScript - Frederick Polgardy * Boo - Feihong Hsu * - Brian Ray ------------------------------ Message: 2 Date: Tue, 06 Jan 2009 10:37:25 -0500 From: Steven Githens Subject: Re: [Chicago] Language Comparison Lighting Talk Submissions To: The Chicago Python Users Group Message-ID: <49637AB5.9030704 at mtu.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed This looks really awesome. Hoping someone can videorecord it for those of us that can't make it this month. Cheers, Steve Brian Ray wrote: > The Python Language Comparison Lighting Talks: > > * C - Daniel Griffin > * tcl/tk [1] > * Logo - Ian Bicking > * Smalltalk -Ian Bicking > * Groovy - David Durham > * JAVA - Garrett Smith > * Ruby - Frederick Polgardy > * JavaScript - Frederick Polgardy > * Boo - Feihong Hsu > * - > > > Brian Ray > > > > _______________________________________________ > Chicago mailing list > Chicago at python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago ------------------------------ Message: 3 Date: Tue, 06 Jan 2009 10:00:42 -0600 From: Carl Karsten Subject: Re: [Chicago] Language Comparison Lighting Talk Submissions To: The Chicago Python Users Group Message-ID: <4963802A.1070407 at personnelware.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Steven Githens wrote: > This looks really awesome. Hoping someone can videorecord it for > those of us that can't make it this month. I'll record if you remind me on IRC, and then monitor the stream and tell me when the audio flakes out :) seriously, you gonna be around to watch it live? Carl K ------------------------------ Message: 4 Date: Tue, 06 Jan 2009 11:02:28 -0500 From: Steven Githens Subject: Re: [Chicago] Language Comparison Lighting Talk Submissions To: The Chicago Python Users Group Message-ID: <49638094.8050805 at mtu.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Carl Karsten wrote: > Steven Githens wrote: >> This looks really awesome. Hoping someone can videorecord it for >> those of us that can't make it this month. > > I'll record if you remind me on IRC, and then monitor the stream and > tell me when the audio flakes out :) > > seriously, you gonna be around to watch it live? > I likely won't be able to watch it live, but if whoever owns the chipy.blip.tv account posts it there I would definately check it out. -s > Carl K > _______________________________________________ > Chicago mailing list > Chicago at python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago ------------------------------ Message: 5 Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2009 10:04:03 -0600 From: Kevin Boers Subject: Re: [Chicago] Language Comparison Lighting Talk Submissions To: The Chicago Python Users Group Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Same here. On 1/6/09 10:02 AM, "Steven Githens" wrote: Carl Karsten wrote: > Steven Githens wrote: >> This looks really awesome. Hoping someone can videorecord it for >> those of us that can't make it this month. > > I'll record if you remind me on IRC, and then monitor the stream and > tell me when the audio flakes out :) > > seriously, you gonna be around to watch it live? > I likely won't be able to watch it live, but if whoever owns the chipy.blip.tv account posts it there I would definately check it out. -s > Carl K > _______________________________________________ > Chicago mailing list > Chicago at python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago _______________________________________________ Chicago mailing list Chicago at python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago Kevin P. Boers QA Manager 847-440-8381 Leapfrog Online 807 Greenwood Evanston, IL 60201 Main 847-492-1968 Fax 847-492-1990 kboers at leapfrogonline.com www.leapfrogonline.com ________________________________ CONFIDENTIALITY NOTE The document(s) accompanying this e-mail transmission, if any, and the e-mail transmittal message containing information from Leapfrog Online Customer Acquisition, LLC is confidential or privileged. The information is intended to be for the use of the individual(s) or entity(ies) named on this e-mail transmission message. If you are not the intended recipient, be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this e-mail is prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error, please immediately delete this e-mail and notify us by telephone of the error. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: ------------------------------ Message: 6 Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2009 10:27:53 -0600 From: "Cosmin Stejerean" Subject: Re: [Chicago] Venue Adjustment To: "The Chicago Python Users Group" Message-ID: <383bbcce0901060827s364d4519q7bf1131a5ae9f547 at mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" On Mon, Jan 5, 2009 at 4:48 PM, sheila miguez wrote: > Chris or Cosmin could probably do clojure. > I was thinking about covering Clojure but I had no idea how to do so in 5 minutes, especially if I had to contrast it with Python the entire time. -- Cosmin Stejerean http://offbytwo.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: ------------------------------ Message: 7 Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2009 10:39:09 -0600 From: Brian Ray Subject: Re: [Chicago] Venue Adjustment To: The Chicago Python Users Group Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes On Jan 6, 2009, at 10:27 AM, Cosmin Stejerean wrote: > On Mon, Jan 5, 2009 at 4:48 PM, sheila miguez > wrote: > Chris or Cosmin could probably do clojure. > > I was thinking about covering Clojure but I had no idea how to do so > in 5 minutes, especially if I had to contrast it with Python the > entire time. > The timeline will probably be longer than 5 min. More like 10-15 depending on how many languages we end up with. We will keep things very high level this time around. How is compiled / ran? Data types? Who owns? OO features? Is it a standard or have a enhance process (like PEPs)? Who uses? Standard Library Features? .... If there is interest in one lighting talk we can roll it out as a full presentation in a future ChiPy meeting. Cosmin, so are you in? Brian Ray ------------------------------ _______________________________________________ Chicago mailing list Chicago at python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago End of Chicago Digest, Vol 41, Issue 18 *************************************** From bray at sent.com Tue Jan 6 22:11:22 2009 From: bray at sent.com (Brian Ray) Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2009 15:11:22 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] Can you publicize our upcoming ACM event on multimedia websites In-Reply-To: <2480D58AB2514D5694A1053130A27FF1@Dreamcatcher2> References: <2480D58AB2514D5694A1053130A27FF1@Dreamcatcher2> Message-ID: <1A78659E-3696-41F9-A412-EBA3295C370A@sent.com> On Jan 6, 2009, at 2:59 PM, Marc Temkin wrote: > If I have some time, which may not happen, I could try to add to your > language comparison with C#. > Marc Hi Marc, Sure, I will put you down for C#. Brian Ray From maney at two14.net Tue Jan 6 23:45:54 2009 From: maney at two14.net (Martin Maney) Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2009 16:45:54 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] Language Comparison Lighting Talk Submissions In-Reply-To: <86714728.2134091231266832395.JavaMail.root@mail-3.01.com> References: <1870934375.2129811231266289602.JavaMail.root@mail-3.01.com> <86714728.2134091231266832395.JavaMail.root@mail-3.01.com> Message-ID: <20090106224554.GA4350@furrr.two14.net> On Tue, Jan 06, 2009 at 12:33:52PM -0600, Garrett Smith wrote: I think > they also attract personality types. Brian, for example, has a very > simple brain, which Python, a very simple language, fits nicely. I'd > say the same for Pete, but he'd take it the wrong way. Brian will > agree though, as he knows I share that characteristic :) When I was young, I thought assembler was the buzz - it was a lot of work, and could get awfully complex even for fairly simple things, but that was okay. As I matured I found C more to my liking - short of intentional obfuscation it's both terser and clearer than assembly code, and whatever lingering lust for the low level complexities it didn't satisfy could be quenched by rewriting, eg., the compiler's support library's software division routine (hard to recall the day when a CPU could lack hardware multiply and divide yet still be a serious micro, innit?). These days I dislike being forced to work with such ungainly languages, though apparently I still can at need (but PIC assembler is absolutely right out - never again). Python helps me find the simpler solutions my sometimes tired old mind likes better. -- As economics is known as The Miserable Science, software engineering should be known as The Doomed Discipline, doomed because it cannot even approach its goal since its goal is self-contradictory. -- Edsger Dijkstra From bray at sent.com Tue Jan 6 23:58:08 2009 From: bray at sent.com (Brian Ray) Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2009 16:58:08 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] ANN ChiPy January Meeting Thursday the 8th at Roosevelt University Computer Message-ID: Chicago Python User Group ========================= Go ChiPy! The world's most successful user group strikes again! The agenda for this month's ChiPy meeting includes a presentation by Computer Software Consultant and Contractor, Allan Spale, on Python 3000 (Py3k) official release. This is the result of over three years of work by the Python Team and is the first ever intentionally backwards incompatible Python release. The rest of the meeting will consist of short timed verbal comparisons of other programming languages to Python by some of ChiPy most notable members. All presenters will be given a short list of questions about the language features they must answer during the talk. The best presentation will be voted on at the end of the meeting. Future meetings may be dedicated to any interesting topic's found during the first ChiPy meeting of 2009. Our host for the meeting is the Roosevelt University Computer Association (RUCA). Thanks in advance for kindly hosting this event full of colorful languages and people. This *will* be our best meeting yet. Topics ------ ? Py3k Official Release, the next version of the Python Programming Language - Allan Spale ? The Python Language Comparison Lighting Talks: ? C - Daniel Griffin ? tcl/tk - tentative ? Logo - Ian Bicking ? Smalltalk -Ian Bicking ? Groovy - David Durham ? JAVA - Garrett Smith ? Ruby - Frederick Polgardy ? JavaScript - Frederick Polgardy ? Boo - Feihong Hsu ? C++ - Allan LeSage ? Lua - Allan LeSage ? Clojure - Cosmin Stejerean ? C# - Marc Temkin When ---- Thursday, January 8th, ~7pm Location -------- Roosevelt University, Gage Building, 18 S. Michigan Ave, 5th floor About ChiPy ----------- ChiPy is a group of Chicago Python Programmers, l33t, and n00bs. Meetings are held monthly at various locations around Chicago. Also, ChiPy is a proud sponsor of many Open Source and Educational efforts in Chicago. Stay tuned to the mailing list for more info. ChiPy website: ChiPy Mailing List: ChiPy Announcement *ONLY* Mailing List: Python website: From bray at sent.com Wed Jan 7 03:46:20 2009 From: bray at sent.com (Brian Ray) Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2009 20:46:20 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] Language Comparison Lighting Talk Submissions In-Reply-To: <86714728.2134091231266832395.JavaMail.root@mail-3.01.com> References: <86714728.2134091231266832395.JavaMail.root@mail-3.01.com> Message-ID: <689F98C5-F8A6-48ED-93D8-E999B640B7EB@sent.com> On Jan 6, 2009, at 12:33 PM, Garrett Smith wrote: > > I think they also attract personality types. Brian, for example, has > a very simple brain, which Python, a very simple language, fits > nicely. I'd say the same for Pete, but he'd take it the wrong way. > Brian will agree though, as he knows I share that characteristic :) It is true, great minds think alike. High goals and expectations sometimes requires simplification. Productivity is also crucial. I would say, "Perfectionist with deadlines," but I think it is taken. I think I like Ian's questions more than mine. Sure they do not lend to my perfect little check list. But, the list will bore Cosmin. And I just can not tolerate him falling asleep and snoring so loudly at another ChiPy meeting. This may be our best meeting ever! Brian Ray From lists at drunkenblog.com Wed Jan 7 03:34:23 2009 From: lists at drunkenblog.com (drunkenbatman) Date: Tue, 06 Jan 2009 21:34:23 -0500 Subject: [Chicago] Capistrano alternatives In-Reply-To: <4962D40F.8030909@colorstudy.com> References: <1356868190.2499381230917109468.JavaMail.root@mail-3.01.com> <53b9568a0901021511o76f9df49n16cb90782c5266eb@mail.gmail.com> <20090104051529.GB16799@furrr.two14.net> <49616184.3000902@colorstudy.com> <20090105222339.GA28381@furrr.two14.net> <496293DB.9010502@colorstudy.com> <4962D40F.8030909@colorstudy.com> Message-ID: <496414AF.9070700@drunkenblog.com> > I can bring a suit just to be an asshole. And indeed, such assholery is > common in some fields and in certain kinds of relationships. But I feel > like it is slandering open source communities to imply that it is at all > common there. It's not, in no small part because it is a community of > individuals. I'd agree about the individuals part, but would propose based on experience that you're assigning some form of gentleman's agreement or form of altruism whereas most individuals simply lack the capability and means to pursue a copyright claim. EG, individual A finds that a company or other individual is using their code in a way that violates the license. The individual contacts them, and the company ignores them for whatever reason. At this point (assuming they are made aware at all) they're told by people "contact the FSF" and "contact the EFF" or "hire a lawyer, it's a slam dunk". The EFF has limited resources, and focuses primarily on cases that will set precedent in a way that favors its goals. The FSF is fairly limited unless you have signed your copyright over to them, which is one of the reasons why they encourage people to do so. Which leaves the civil lawyer route, and if you are of means and willing to put them towards that, you're set -- and the company or individual will most likely back down even if they are bringing in cash via your code, as they will most likely be advised that their odds of winning at a trial are almost nil and they're likely to pay much more than they would by negotiating some form of settlement. If you aren't of means, you're left with trying to find a lawyer willing to take your case without an upfront fee, or waiving the fee out of the goodness of their heart that is able to practice in the area you need them (you can often get copyright cases moved to federal court and out of a local area, but the one willing to help you may not be certified to practice in say, California). Calling the local personal injury lawyer whose ads you see won't cut it beyond a basic cease & desist where the company/individual will weigh what they might be making vs the likelihood of you being able to really pursue it, and while many cities have local services where lawyers donate their time for say, helping people out with crazy landlords, IP lawyers aren't a dime a dozen. Even if it seems that way. They rarely have a lot of free time, and they'll often ask "is your copyright registered?" You don't have to specifically register your copyright in order to own it, but it is a huge help. It makes the case basically open and shut, while shutting down a whole bunch of other arguments that may have to be proved (that you actually are the original author, etc) and, perhaps equally importantly, triggers a bunch of statues in the law involving terms like "willful infringement" which automatically shoots the potential damages sky-high (this is where they start talking $100k+ per infringement, etc). Registering your copyright generally involves paying ~$30 and sending in a full copy of your code that then gets filed away, but it is rarely done by individuals, either because they aren't really aware they should or, if they are, they weigh the hassle with the risk and don't worry about it, for the same reason people generally don't do backups until something bad happens. There are other factors, like how visible the company/case could potentially be in terms of press -- but most of these things happen in the margins, so your real hope is a lawyer really likes you and thinks your claim about your code is worth spending his spare time buggering with instead of others coming to him, or whether it's of enough interest/visibility/etc. This will all become a pretty big part of your life, and you'll then end up going with communal shame, which isn't as effective as you might think outside of the small circles. So, yes, with our current system the likelihood of something bad happening to you because you just grabbed someone's code and did whatever you wanted is pretty small -- even if you get a cease and desist order and ignore it, and even if someone then pulls you into court, if their stuff isn't registered you can most likely back down and remove it/split it/etc. and be out a bit of fees/hassle. The worst are situations where you're basically presented with a cease & desist and a note to settle so you don't go to court for a few thousand dollars. More likely if a system is targeting you to make a statement, or someone has a lawyer friend. Yes, you can often just contact the developer and say "hey, this is what I'm doing, is that cool?" and they might well say "Sure" -- although sometimes developers are too congenial about this and forget that they aren't the only contributor to the project and hence don't have a right to sign over someone else's copyright. There's the obvious issue, but there's also the fact that you sometimes can't count on the developer or lead really understanding copyright or the GPL and what he thinks is fine others might have a real issue with (eg, I've seen "um this project wants to use this code so we might BSD it, but we can't get ahold of these people right now... how about we just BSD it and if someone complains we'll deal with it then") You can take advantage of that by intentionally and willfully just doing what you want knowing the risk of it biting you is really quite small, but I'd propose that even if I had real philosophical problems with the GPL, or the system in general, ignoring the system can lead yourself and others into a lot of trouble. An author is putting his code on a shelf for you to use under certain conditions. It's worth respecting those conditions and assuming they put them out there for a reason, if for no other reason than respecting that they wrote it and it is, essentially, theirs to license as they see fit. Those conditions are in the letter of how it was distributed and can't be taken away from you -- learn what those conditions entail in whatever the license happens to be, and follow them if you want to use the code (eg, you can't take a book from the library and then decide you want to send it to a friend overseas, even if they would really like it and it's hard to find there -- those aren't the conditions for checking out a library book, but you could just buy it and do it) and no matter the author's later intentions or misconceptions you're safe and clear and feeling warm and fuzzy when you sleep and put it on a server for download. If you know you're stepping outside of the conditions, and will one day want to distribute it (as opposed to just internal use), I'd say it's worth giving the author a ping out of respect for their work if nothing else and asking that they relicense the code in a way you can use. They'll most likely be tickled you dig it at the least, and might well grant it. If they choose not to and you ignore their wishes, well, the likelihood of it ending badly is small, and that's up to you. Basically it comes down to respecting that someone else did a certain work, and whether you want to acknowledge that or not, and the risk of the courts/market making you acknowledge it if you choose not to. However, it is their work. > I have recently been thinking of lawyers as the men-at-arms of our era. > Some people with weapons use those weapons to protect people. But > mostly weapons are used to oppress people. And I think law in the hands > of professionals is kind of like this. Though this modern thuggery > looks much more civilized of course, it's not like we haven't made *any* > progress ;) It's all quite frustrating and non-idea. If you're bored, you might find "once & future king" by T.H. White, of the old Arthurian tragedies. It was the first time I came across this concept, where the concept of Fort Mayne ruled the land (aka, "Might Makes Right" -- if you had a disagreement, you'd challenge a person, and whoever won the fight, well, God obviously favored them and wouldn't let them lose - of course over time you were then allowed to substitute your champion to fight for you) and they slowly start to work in a system of laws. One day Arthur is despondent, and when Merlin asks why, he basically says (paraphrased) "I fear we have gone from a system whereby whomever had the most gold could hire the best fighter, to whomever has the most gold can hire the best talker." I think you'd enjoy it. peace, drunkenbatman From fred at polgardy.com Wed Jan 7 17:48:03 2009 From: fred at polgardy.com (Frederick Polgardy) Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2009 10:48:03 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] ANN ChiPy January Meeting Thursday the 8th at Roosevelt University Computer In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <253b55880901070848y101c7ca6yecbe9bcfd5560a24@mail.gmail.com> Whoa. At 10 min per talk, this is already at 2+ hrs., and we haven't even gotten to the Py3K part yet. What's the plan? -Fred On Tue, Jan 6, 2009 at 4:58 PM, Brian Ray wrote: > > Chicago Python User Group > ========================= > > Go ChiPy! The world's most successful user group strikes again! > > The agenda for this month's ChiPy meeting includes a presentation by > Computer Software Consultant and Contractor, Allan Spale, on Python 3000 > (Py3k) official release. This is the result of over three years of work by > the Python Team and is the first ever intentionally backwards incompatible > Python release. > > The rest of the meeting will consist of short timed verbal comparisons of > other programming languages to Python by some of ChiPy most notable members. > All presenters will be given a short list of questions about the language > features they must answer during the talk. The best presentation will be > voted on at the end of the meeting. Future meetings may be dedicated to any > interesting topic's found during the first ChiPy meeting of 2009. > > Our host for the meeting is the Roosevelt University Computer Association > (RUCA). Thanks in advance for kindly hosting this event full of colorful > languages and people. > > This *will* be our best meeting yet. > > Topics > ------ > ? Py3k Official Release, the next version of the Python Programming > Language - Allan Spale > ? The Python Language Comparison Lighting Talks: > ? C - Daniel Griffin > ? tcl/tk - tentative > ? Logo - Ian Bicking > ? Smalltalk -Ian Bicking > ? Groovy - David Durham > ? JAVA - Garrett Smith > ? Ruby - Frederick Polgardy > ? JavaScript - Frederick Polgardy > ? Boo - Feihong Hsu > ? C++ - Allan LeSage > ? Lua - Allan LeSage > ? Clojure - Cosmin Stejerean > ? C# - Marc Temkin > > > When > ---- > > Thursday, January 8th, ~7pm > > Location > -------- > > Roosevelt University, Gage Building, 18 S. Michigan Ave, 5th floor > > > About ChiPy > ----------- > > ChiPy is a group of Chicago Python Programmers, l33t, and n00bs. > Meetings are held monthly at various locations around Chicago. > Also, ChiPy is a proud sponsor of many Open Source and Educational > efforts in Chicago. Stay tuned to the mailing list for more info. > > ChiPy website: > ChiPy Mailing List: > ChiPy Announcement *ONLY* Mailing List: < > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chipy-announce> > Python website: > > > > _______________________________________________ > Chicago mailing list > Chicago at python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago > -- Science answers questions; philosophy questions answers. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bray at sent.com Wed Jan 7 17:58:46 2009 From: bray at sent.com (Brian Ray) Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2009 10:58:46 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] ANN ChiPy January Meeting Thursday the 8th at Roosevelt University Computer In-Reply-To: <253b55880901070848y101c7ca6yecbe9bcfd5560a24@mail.gmail.com> References: <253b55880901070848y101c7ca6yecbe9bcfd5560a24@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <5247A94E-1BC7-448A-AE4E-98DA023B4529@sent.com> On Jan 7, 2009, at 10:48 AM, Frederick Polgardy wrote: > Whoa. At 10 min per talk, this is already at 2+ hrs., and we > haven't even gotten to the Py3K part yet. What's the plan? > Right, and I already have heard some talkers may not be presenting. I thought I already made this clear in my email to you last night. The agenda is: 7-7:30 Py3K 7:30-9/9:30 ish Lighting talks @ 9 / 9:30 summary of talks We will be setting up talks side by side so one can set up while the other is waiting. We will be giving a solid 10 minutes to everyone on the list. A lot can be said in 10 minutes, I promise. And this will *NOT* be boring. Please folks, lets have fun with this. Recall, some of us have been running these meetings for several years now. Thanks, Brian From ianb at colorstudy.com Wed Jan 7 18:00:54 2009 From: ianb at colorstudy.com (Ian Bicking) Date: Wed, 07 Jan 2009 11:00:54 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] ANN ChiPy January Meeting Thursday the 8th at Roosevelt University Computer In-Reply-To: <5247A94E-1BC7-448A-AE4E-98DA023B4529@sent.com> References: <253b55880901070848y101c7ca6yecbe9bcfd5560a24@mail.gmail.com> <5247A94E-1BC7-448A-AE4E-98DA023B4529@sent.com> Message-ID: <4964DFC6.7050308@colorstudy.com> Brian Ray wrote: > We will be setting up talks side by side so one can set up while the > other is waiting. We will be giving a solid 10 minutes to everyone on > the list. A lot can be said in 10 minutes, I promise. And this will > *NOT* be boring. And of course, no one *has* to use their 10 minutes. I don't plan to talk for 10 minutes on Logo. -- Ian Bicking : ianb at colorstudy.com : http://blog.ianbicking.org From dgriff1 at gmail.com Wed Jan 7 18:04:50 2009 From: dgriff1 at gmail.com (Daniel Griffin) Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2009 11:04:50 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] ANN ChiPy January Meeting Thursday the 8th at Roosevelt University Computer In-Reply-To: <4964DFC6.7050308@colorstudy.com> References: <253b55880901070848y101c7ca6yecbe9bcfd5560a24@mail.gmail.com> <5247A94E-1BC7-448A-AE4E-98DA023B4529@sent.com> <4964DFC6.7050308@colorstudy.com> Message-ID: <3db160680901070904y8d056dfn5b1dd82dafeff2a9@mail.gmail.com> I think I will be able to adequately cover C in much less than 10 minutes. Im definitely feeling out classed by all these sweet languages like Clojure. On Wed, Jan 7, 2009 at 11:00 AM, Ian Bicking wrote: > Brian Ray wrote: > >> We will be setting up talks side by side so one can set up while the other >> is waiting. We will be giving a solid 10 minutes to everyone on the list. A >> lot can be said in 10 minutes, I promise. And this will *NOT* be boring. >> > > And of course, no one *has* to use their 10 minutes. I don't plan to talk > for 10 minutes on Logo. > > -- > Ian Bicking : ianb at colorstudy.com : http://blog.ianbicking.org > > _______________________________________________ > Chicago mailing list > Chicago at python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cwebber at dustycloud.org Wed Jan 7 18:16:42 2009 From: cwebber at dustycloud.org (Christopher Allan Webber) Date: Wed, 07 Jan 2009 11:16:42 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] Language Comparison Lighting Talk Submissions In-Reply-To: (Kevin Boers's message of "Tue, 6 Jan 2009 10:04:03 -0600") References: Message-ID: <87vdsrrq85.fsf@dustycloud.org> I will make sure to actually post the videos for this month's awesome meeting :) No promise on doing a good editing job though, since I am overwhelmed with work at present. Kevin Boers writes: > Same here. > > On 1/6/09 10:02 AM, "Steven Githens" wrote: > > Carl Karsten wrote: > > Steven Githens wrote: > >> This looks really awesome. Hoping someone can videorecord it for > >> those of us that can't make it this month. > > > > I'll record if you remind me on IRC, and then monitor the stream and > > tell me when the audio flakes out :) > > > > seriously, you gonna be around to watch it live? > > > I likely won't be able to watch it live, but if whoever owns the > chipy.blip.tv account posts it there I would definately check it out. > > -s > > Carl K > > _______________________________________________ > > Chicago mailing list > > Chicago at python.org > > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago > > _______________________________________________ > Chicago mailing list > Chicago at python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago > > Kevin P. Boers > QA Manager > 847-440-8381 > > Leapfrog Online > 807 Greenwood > Evanston, IL 60201 > Main 847-492-1968 > Fax 847-492-1990 > kboers at leapfrogonline.com > www.leapfrogonline.com > > ????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? > CONFIDENTIALITY NOTE > The document(s) accompanying this e-mail transmission, if any, and the e-mail transmittal message containing information from Leapfrog Online Customer Acquisition, LLC is confidential or > privileged. The information is intended to be for the use of the individual(s) or entity(ies) named on this e-mail transmission message. If you are not the intended recipient, be aware that any > disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this e-mail is prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error, please immediately delete this e-mail and notify us by telephone of > the error. > > _______________________________________________ > Chicago mailing list > Chicago at python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago From fred at polgardy.com Wed Jan 7 18:26:37 2009 From: fred at polgardy.com (Frederick Polgardy) Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2009 11:26:37 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] ANN ChiPy January Meeting Thursday the 8th at Roosevelt University Computer In-Reply-To: <5247A94E-1BC7-448A-AE4E-98DA023B4529@sent.com> References: <253b55880901070848y101c7ca6yecbe9bcfd5560a24@mail.gmail.com> <5247A94E-1BC7-448A-AE4E-98DA023B4529@sent.com> Message-ID: <253b55880901070926s6e502efdw979111d80d3d7e5a@mail.gmail.com> Yes, it was clear, it just seemed like the list grew a lot since then. =] On Wed, Jan 7, 2009 at 10:58 AM, Brian Ray wrote: > > On Jan 7, 2009, at 10:48 AM, Frederick Polgardy wrote: > > Whoa. At 10 min per talk, this is already at 2+ hrs., and we haven't even >> gotten to the Py3K part yet. What's the plan? >> >> > Right, and I already have heard some talkers may not be presenting. I > thought I already made this clear in my email to you last night. -- Science answers questions; philosophy questions answers. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jcroneme at thoughtworks.com Thu Jan 8 09:12:25 2009 From: jcroneme at thoughtworks.com (Josh Cronemeyer) Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2009 02:12:25 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] Follow up link from my Google App Engine presentation Message-ID: This is a blatant plug for the GAE project I demoed at the December chipy meeting. I realize It has been a month but the holidays sort of sidetracked me. :) If you recall, the project is a web accessable version of your bash history. I use it to aggregate commands I have issued across all the various unix systems I work on. Commands can be organized with tags. Searched with keywords. And you can also pull commands from the server down to your local bash history file. This is especially useful if you have tags for commonly used tasks becuase it puts the commands you want to execute right there in your bash history. It is still early days, but things are stable and it is useful so I thought I would see if anyone was interested in trying it out. Feedback would be appreciated. The project home page which has installation instructions and other pertinent information can be found at http://shellsink.com PEACE! Josh Cronemeyer -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jeffh at dundeemt.com Thu Jan 8 14:09:37 2009 From: jeffh at dundeemt.com (Jeff Hinrichs - DM&T) Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2009 07:09:37 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] ANN ChiPy January Meeting Thursday the 8th at Roosevelt University Computer In-Reply-To: <253b55880901070926s6e502efdw979111d80d3d7e5a@mail.gmail.com> References: <253b55880901070848y101c7ca6yecbe9bcfd5560a24@mail.gmail.com> <5247A94E-1BC7-448A-AE4E-98DA023B4529@sent.com> <253b55880901070926s6e502efdw979111d80d3d7e5a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <5aaed53f0901080509r2f82b673xfdd9449d22ca05ff@mail.gmail.com> Any chance that this will be webcast for us out in the sticks? -Jeff On Wed, Jan 7, 2009 at 11:26 AM, Frederick Polgardy wrote: > Yes, it was clear, it just seemed like the list grew a lot since then. =] > > On Wed, Jan 7, 2009 at 10:58 AM, Brian Ray wrote: > >> >> On Jan 7, 2009, at 10:48 AM, Frederick Polgardy wrote: >> >> Whoa. At 10 min per talk, this is already at 2+ hrs., and we haven't >>> even gotten to the Py3K part yet. What's the plan? >>> >>> >> Right, and I already have heard some talkers may not be presenting. I >> thought I already made this clear in my email to you last night. > > > -- > Science answers questions; philosophy questions answers. > > _______________________________________________ > Chicago mailing list > Chicago at python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From carl at personnelware.com Thu Jan 8 15:18:01 2009 From: carl at personnelware.com (Carl Karsten) Date: Thu, 08 Jan 2009 08:18:01 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] ANN ChiPy January Meeting Thursday the 8th at Roosevelt University Computer In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <49660B19.3040006@personnelware.com> Brian Ray wrote: > > Chicago Python User Group > ========================= > > Go ChiPy! The world's most successful user group strikes again! > > The agenda for this month's ChiPy meeting includes a presentation by > Computer Software Consultant and Contractor, Allan Spale, on Python 3000 > (Py3k) official release. This is the result of over three years of work > by the Python Team and is the first ever intentionally backwards > incompatible Python release. > > The rest of the meeting will consist of short timed verbal comparisons > of other programming languages to Python by some of ChiPy most notable > members. All presenters will be given a short list of questions about > the language features they must answer during the talk. The best > presentation will be voted on at the end of the meeting. Future meetings > may be dedicated to any interesting topic's found during the first ChiPy > meeting of 2009. > > Our host for the meeting is the Roosevelt University Computer > Association (RUCA). Thanks in advance for kindly hosting this event full > of colorful languages and people. > > This *will* be our best meeting yet. > > Topics > ------ > ? Py3k Official Release, the next version of the Python Programming > Language - Allan Spale > ? The Python Language Comparison Lighting Talks: > ? C - Daniel Griffin > ? tcl/tk - tentative can't make it. > ? Logo - Ian Bicking > ? Smalltalk -Ian Bicking > ? Groovy - David Durham > ? JAVA - Garrett Smith > ? Ruby - Frederick Polgardy > ? JavaScript - Frederick Polgardy > ? Boo - Feihong Hsu > ? C++ - Allan LeSage > ? Lua - Allan LeSage > ? Clojure - Cosmin Stejerean > ? C# - Marc Temkin > > > When > ---- > > Thursday, January 8th, ~7pm that should be on the wiki. I would do it, but it won't ask me the security question, it just errors. Carl K From carl at personnelware.com Thu Jan 8 18:06:03 2009 From: carl at personnelware.com (Carl Karsten) Date: Thu, 08 Jan 2009 11:06:03 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] ANN ChiPy January Meeting Thursday the 8th at Roosevelt University Computer In-Reply-To: <5aaed53f0901080509r2f82b673xfdd9449d22ca05ff@mail.gmail.com> References: <253b55880901070848y101c7ca6yecbe9bcfd5560a24@mail.gmail.com> <5247A94E-1BC7-448A-AE4E-98DA023B4529@sent.com> <253b55880901070926s6e502efdw979111d80d3d7e5a@mail.gmail.com> <5aaed53f0901080509r2f82b673xfdd9449d22ca05ff@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4966327B.6020806@personnelware.com> Yep. http://giss.tv/interface/?mp=ChiPy.ogg try it now... I have a test stream up so you can figure out what player to use. (I am playing some talks from last year's pycon) Carl K Jeff Hinrichs - DM&T wrote: > Any chance that this will be webcast for us out in the sticks? > > -Jeff > > On Wed, Jan 7, 2009 at 11:26 AM, Frederick Polgardy wrote: > >> Yes, it was clear, it just seemed like the list grew a lot since then. =] >> >> On Wed, Jan 7, 2009 at 10:58 AM, Brian Ray wrote: >> >>> On Jan 7, 2009, at 10:48 AM, Frederick Polgardy wrote: >>> >>> Whoa. At 10 min per talk, this is already at 2+ hrs., and we haven't >>>> even gotten to the Py3K part yet. What's the plan? >>>> >>>> >>> Right, and I already have heard some talkers may not be presenting. I >>> thought I already made this clear in my email to you last night. >> >> -- >> Science answers questions; philosophy questions answers. >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Chicago mailing list >> Chicago at python.org >> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago >> >> > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > Chicago mailing list > Chicago at python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago From ianb at colorstudy.com Thu Jan 8 18:56:15 2009 From: ianb at colorstudy.com (Ian Bicking) Date: Thu, 08 Jan 2009 11:56:15 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] Capistrano alternatives In-Reply-To: <496414AF.9070700@drunkenblog.com> References: <1356868190.2499381230917109468.JavaMail.root@mail-3.01.com> <53b9568a0901021511o76f9df49n16cb90782c5266eb@mail.gmail.com> <20090104051529.GB16799@furrr.two14.net> <49616184.3000902@colorstudy.com> <20090105222339.GA28381@furrr.two14.net> <496293DB.9010502@colorstudy.com> <4962D40F.8030909@colorstudy.com> <496414AF.9070700@drunkenblog.com> Message-ID: <49663E3F.7020902@colorstudy.com> drunkenbatman wrote: >> I can bring a suit just to be an asshole. And indeed, such assholery is >> common in some fields and in certain kinds of relationships. But I feel >> like it is slandering open source communities to imply that it is at all >> common there. It's not, in no small part because it is a community of >> individuals. > > I'd agree about the individuals part, but would propose based on > experience that you're assigning some form of gentleman's agreement or > form of altruism whereas most individuals simply lack the capability and > means to pursue a copyright claim. EG, individual A finds that a company > or other individual is using their code in a way that violates the > license. The individual contacts them, and the company ignores them for > whatever reason. At this point (assuming they are made aware at all) > they're told by people "contact the FSF" and "contact the EFF" or "hire > a lawyer, it's a slam dunk". Sure. Individuals can't easily defend themselves legally, and are unlikely to have any positive outcome during a copyright dispute. This is true regardless of whether we want it to be true. The gentleman's agreement actually is available to the individuals, which is why I think it's a more reasonable way to look at licensing. It's better for the community if people use the guide "am I doing the right thing" than "am I taking on a legal liability". That is, moral and social norms are better at enforcing good behavior than the law is. -- Ian Bicking : ianb at colorstudy.com : http://blog.ianbicking.org From allanlesage at gmail.com Thu Jan 8 21:58:10 2009 From: allanlesage at gmail.com (Allan LeSage) Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2009 14:58:10 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] ANN ChiPy January Meeting Thursday the 8th at Roosevelt University Computer In-Reply-To: <4966327B.6020806@personnelware.com> References: <253b55880901070848y101c7ca6yecbe9bcfd5560a24@mail.gmail.com> <5247A94E-1BC7-448A-AE4E-98DA023B4529@sent.com> <253b55880901070926s6e502efdw979111d80d3d7e5a@mail.gmail.com> <5aaed53f0901080509r2f82b673xfdd9449d22ca05ff@mail.gmail.com> <4966327B.6020806@personnelware.com> Message-ID: <69ad11e40901081258k59c7e307gb909142f02611a66@mail.gmail.com> Hi all, I regret that I can't make tonight's meeting, but wanted to use the opportunity to chime in on the list here. I was to have presented for Lua and C++; Brant expressed some interest in Lua so I passed along some notes to him with my encouragement (but no coercion). Concerning C++, it's just too vast! But as a conversation-starter I wanted to share Linus Torvalds' famous rant, possibly to set the tone for the evening: http://lwn.net/Articles/249460/ . I'm sorry that I'll be missing our best meeting ever! Allan On Thu, Jan 8, 2009 at 11:06 AM, Carl Karsten wrote: > Yep. > > http://giss.tv/interface/?mp=ChiPy.ogg > > try it now... I have a test stream up so you can figure out what player to > use. > > (I am playing some talks from last year's pycon) > > > Carl K > > > Jeff Hinrichs - DM&T wrote: > >> Any chance that this will be webcast for us out in the sticks? >> >> -Jeff >> >> On Wed, Jan 7, 2009 at 11:26 AM, Frederick Polgardy > >wrote: >> >> Yes, it was clear, it just seemed like the list grew a lot since then. =] >>> >>> On Wed, Jan 7, 2009 at 10:58 AM, Brian Ray wrote: >>> >>> On Jan 7, 2009, at 10:48 AM, Frederick Polgardy wrote: >>>> >>>> Whoa. At 10 min per talk, this is already at 2+ hrs., and we haven't >>>> >>>>> even gotten to the Py3K part yet. What's the plan? >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Right, and I already have heard some talkers may not be presenting. I >>>> thought I already made this clear in my email to you last night. >>>> >>> >>> -- >>> Science answers questions; philosophy questions answers. >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Chicago mailing list >>> Chicago at python.org >>> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago >>> >>> >>> >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Chicago mailing list >> Chicago at python.org >> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago >> > _______________________________________________ > Chicago mailing list > Chicago at python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dgriff1 at gmail.com Thu Jan 8 22:00:49 2009 From: dgriff1 at gmail.com (Daniel Griffin) Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2009 15:00:49 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] ANN ChiPy January Meeting Thursday the 8th at Roosevelt University Computer In-Reply-To: <69ad11e40901081258k59c7e307gb909142f02611a66@mail.gmail.com> References: <253b55880901070848y101c7ca6yecbe9bcfd5560a24@mail.gmail.com> <5247A94E-1BC7-448A-AE4E-98DA023B4529@sent.com> <253b55880901070926s6e502efdw979111d80d3d7e5a@mail.gmail.com> <5aaed53f0901080509r2f82b673xfdd9449d22ca05ff@mail.gmail.com> <4966327B.6020806@personnelware.com> <69ad11e40901081258k59c7e307gb909142f02611a66@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <3db160680901081300u6de9c8ecg6c586d37c77bb790@mail.gmail.com> If its all the same i'll lump C++ in with my talk about C. Dan On Thu, Jan 8, 2009 at 2:58 PM, Allan LeSage wrote: > > Hi all, > > I regret that I can't make tonight's meeting, but wanted to use the > opportunity to chime in on the list here. > > I was to have presented for Lua and C++; Brant expressed some interest in > Lua so I passed along some notes to him with my encouragement (but no > coercion). > > Concerning C++, it's just too vast! But as a conversation-starter I wanted > to share Linus Torvalds' famous rant, possibly to set the tone for the > evening: http://lwn.net/Articles/249460/ . > > I'm sorry that I'll be missing our best meeting ever! > > Allan > > > On Thu, Jan 8, 2009 at 11:06 AM, Carl Karsten wrote: > >> Yep. >> >> http://giss.tv/interface/?mp=ChiPy.ogg >> >> try it now... I have a test stream up so you can figure out what player >> to use. >> >> (I am playing some talks from last year's pycon) >> >> >> Carl K >> >> >> Jeff Hinrichs - DM&T wrote: >> >>> Any chance that this will be webcast for us out in the sticks? >>> >>> -Jeff >>> >>> On Wed, Jan 7, 2009 at 11:26 AM, Frederick Polgardy >> >wrote: >>> >>> Yes, it was clear, it just seemed like the list grew a lot since then. >>>> =] >>>> >>>> On Wed, Jan 7, 2009 at 10:58 AM, Brian Ray wrote: >>>> >>>> On Jan 7, 2009, at 10:48 AM, Frederick Polgardy wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Whoa. At 10 min per talk, this is already at 2+ hrs., and we haven't >>>>> >>>>>> even gotten to the Py3K part yet. What's the plan? >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Right, and I already have heard some talkers may not be presenting. >>>>> I >>>>> thought I already made this clear in my email to you last night. >>>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Science answers questions; philosophy questions answers. >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Chicago mailing list >>>> Chicago at python.org >>>> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Chicago mailing list >>> Chicago at python.org >>> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> Chicago mailing list >> Chicago at python.org >> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago >> > > > _______________________________________________ > Chicago mailing list > Chicago at python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From szybalski at gmail.com Mon Jan 12 06:13:10 2009 From: szybalski at gmail.com (Lukasz Szybalski) Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2009 23:13:10 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] Announcing Datahub 0.7 Message-ID: <804e5c70901112113v4800d0c9m88e34771553ab5f1@mail.gmail.com> http://lucasmanual.com/mywiki/DataHub *Datahub is a tool that allows faster download/crawl, parse, load, and visualize of data. It achieves this by allowing you to divide each step into its own work folders. In each work folder you get a sample files that you can start coding. *Datahub is for people who found some interesting data source for them, they want to download it, parse it, load it into database, provide some documentation, and visualize it. Datahub will speed up the process by creating folder for each of these actions. You will create all the programs from our base default template and move on to analyzing the data in no time. How to get started?: Datahub is a python based tool and here is how to run it. **Create python virtualenviroment: virtualenv --no-site-packages datahubENV source datahubENV/bin/activate **How to get it: wget http://launchpad.net/datahub/trunk/0.7/+download/datahub-0.7.tar.gz tar -xzvf datahub-0.7.tar.gz ** Install it: cd datahub-0.7/ python setup.py install **Create you project using datahub default templates: paster create --list-templates paster create -t datahub ** Where do I start: Above commands created a project skeleton that has 4 folders: crawl (sample code to download via wget or harvestman), parse (here is where you parse raw data), load (here is where you load the data into database using sqlalchemy or a tool of your choice), hdf5 (convert to hdf5 if you don't want to use database), wiki (provide some documentation) This is a first release, so feedback is appreciated. Give it a try if you have some interesting data to deal with. Thanks, Lucas From jonathan.gray at okfn.org Mon Jan 12 11:46:18 2009 From: jonathan.gray at okfn.org (Jonathan Gray) Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2009 10:46:18 +0000 Subject: [Chicago] [get.theinfo] Announcing Datahub 0.7 In-Reply-To: <804e5c70901112113v4800d0c9m88e34771553ab5f1@mail.gmail.com> References: <804e5c70901112113v4800d0c9m88e34771553ab5f1@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <54ca21750901120246u70185200s530c7646a599a7df@mail.gmail.com> This looks great! I notice on the website it says it is open-source - out of interest, what license is it under? Jonathan On Mon, Jan 12, 2009 at 5:13 AM, Lukasz Szybalski wrote: > > http://lucasmanual.com/mywiki/DataHub > > > *Datahub is a tool that allows faster download/crawl, parse, load, > and visualize of data. It achieves this by allowing you to divide each > step into its own work folders. In each work folder you get a sample > files that you can start coding. > *Datahub is for people who found some interesting data source for > them, they want to download it, parse it, load it into database, > provide some documentation, and visualize it. Datahub will speed up > the process by creating folder for each of these actions. You will > create all the programs from our base default template and move on to > analyzing the data in no time. > > How to get started?: Datahub is a python based tool and here is how to run it. > > **Create python virtualenviroment: > virtualenv --no-site-packages datahubENV > source datahubENV/bin/activate > > > **How to get it: > wget http://launchpad.net/datahub/trunk/0.7/+download/datahub-0.7.tar.gz > tar -xzvf datahub-0.7.tar.gz > > ** Install it: > cd datahub-0.7/ > python setup.py install > > **Create you project using datahub default templates: > > paster create --list-templates > paster create -t datahub > > ** Where do I start: > Above commands created a project skeleton that has 4 folders: crawl > (sample code to download via wget or harvestman), parse (here is where > you parse raw data), load (here is where you load the data into > database using sqlalchemy or a tool of your choice), hdf5 (convert to > hdf5 if you don't want to use database), wiki (provide some > documentation) > > > This is a first release, so feedback is appreciated. Give it a try if > you have some interesting data to deal with. > > Thanks, > Lucas > > --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ > [from the http://groups.google.com/group/get-theinfo mailing list] > -~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~--- > > From stcorbett at gmail.com Mon Jan 12 18:51:37 2009 From: stcorbett at gmail.com (Sean Corbett) Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2009 11:51:37 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] ANN ChiPy January Meeting Thursday the 8th at Roosevelt University Computer In-Reply-To: <3db160680901081300u6de9c8ecg6c586d37c77bb790@mail.gmail.com> References: <253b55880901070848y101c7ca6yecbe9bcfd5560a24@mail.gmail.com> <5247A94E-1BC7-448A-AE4E-98DA023B4529@sent.com> <253b55880901070926s6e502efdw979111d80d3d7e5a@mail.gmail.com> <5aaed53f0901080509r2f82b673xfdd9449d22ca05ff@mail.gmail.com> <4966327B.6020806@personnelware.com> <69ad11e40901081258k59c7e307gb909142f02611a66@mail.gmail.com> <3db160680901081300u6de9c8ecg6c586d37c77bb790@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: I missed the meeting, does anyone have a link to a video recording of it? -Sean Corbett On Thu, Jan 8, 2009 at 3:00 PM, Daniel Griffin wrote: > If its all the same i'll lump C++ in with my talk about C. > > Dan > > > On Thu, Jan 8, 2009 at 2:58 PM, Allan LeSage wrote: > >> >> Hi all, >> >> I regret that I can't make tonight's meeting, but wanted to use the >> opportunity to chime in on the list here. >> >> I was to have presented for Lua and C++; Brant expressed some interest in >> Lua so I passed along some notes to him with my encouragement (but no >> coercion). >> >> Concerning C++, it's just too vast! But as a conversation-starter I >> wanted to share Linus Torvalds' famous rant, possibly to set the tone for >> the evening: http://lwn.net/Articles/249460/ . >> >> I'm sorry that I'll be missing our best meeting ever! >> >> Allan >> >> >> On Thu, Jan 8, 2009 at 11:06 AM, Carl Karsten wrote: >> >>> Yep. >>> >>> http://giss.tv/interface/?mp=ChiPy.ogg >>> >>> try it now... I have a test stream up so you can figure out what player >>> to use. >>> >>> (I am playing some talks from last year's pycon) >>> >>> >>> Carl K >>> >>> >>> Jeff Hinrichs - DM&T wrote: >>> >>>> Any chance that this will be webcast for us out in the sticks? >>>> >>>> -Jeff >>>> >>>> On Wed, Jan 7, 2009 at 11:26 AM, Frederick Polgardy >>> >wrote: >>>> >>>> Yes, it was clear, it just seemed like the list grew a lot since then. >>>>> =] >>>>> >>>>> On Wed, Jan 7, 2009 at 10:58 AM, Brian Ray wrote: >>>>> >>>>> On Jan 7, 2009, at 10:48 AM, Frederick Polgardy wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> Whoa. At 10 min per talk, this is already at 2+ hrs., and we haven't >>>>>> >>>>>>> even gotten to the Py3K part yet. What's the plan? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Right, and I already have heard some talkers may not be presenting. >>>>>> I >>>>>> thought I already made this clear in my email to you last night. >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> Science answers questions; philosophy questions answers. >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Chicago mailing list >>>>> Chicago at python.org >>>>> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Chicago mailing list >>>> Chicago at python.org >>>> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Chicago mailing list >>> Chicago at python.org >>> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago >>> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Chicago mailing list >> Chicago at python.org >> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > Chicago mailing list > Chicago at python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From varmaa at gmail.com Mon Jan 12 19:21:45 2009 From: varmaa at gmail.com (Atul Varma) Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2009 10:21:45 -0800 Subject: [Chicago] WSGI auto-deployment machinations Message-ID: <361b27370901121021q30ef1e11rd4c50c5e138c5420@mail.gmail.com> Hey, are there any tools out there to aid in the deployment of WSGI apps? I mean something that basically makes the deployment of WSGI apps to a VPS or shared host as easy as deploying apps on Google appengine. Obviously the differences of server-side configurations would make this a less-than-trivial task, but I was just curious if something like it already existed. If not, I suppose I will attempt to bust one myself. - Atul -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ianb at colorstudy.com Mon Jan 12 19:31:36 2009 From: ianb at colorstudy.com (Ian Bicking) Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2009 12:31:36 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] WSGI auto-deployment machinations In-Reply-To: <361b27370901121021q30ef1e11rd4c50c5e138c5420@mail.gmail.com> References: <361b27370901121021q30ef1e11rd4c50c5e138c5420@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Jan 12, 2009 at 12:21 PM, Atul Varma wrote: > Hey, are there any tools out there to aid in the deployment of WSGI apps? > I mean something that basically makes the deployment of WSGI apps to a VPS > or shared host as easy as deploying apps on Google appengine. Obviously the > differences of server-side configurations would make this a > less-than-trivial task, but I was just curious if something like it already > existed. > I don't know of anything like that. Presumably it would have to know about the VPS. People glue stuff together with systems like Fabric, but I don't know of anything higher level at this point. virtualenv --relocatable *might* give you a set of libraries and scripts that could be uploaded and run in any location; it's a bit experimental (i.e., not many people have really tried it), but might make all the other steps easy (if it's just file copies). -- Ian Bicking | http://blog.ianbicking.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From nathan at creativecommons.org Mon Jan 12 17:58:39 2009 From: nathan at creativecommons.org (Nathan Yergler) Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2009 08:58:39 -0800 Subject: [Chicago] [get.theinfo] Re: Announcing Datahub 0.7 In-Reply-To: <54ca21750901120246u70185200s530c7646a599a7df@mail.gmail.com> References: <804e5c70901112113v4800d0c9m88e34771553ab5f1@mail.gmail.com> <54ca21750901120246u70185200s530c7646a599a7df@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: It appears from https://launchpad.net/datahub that it's GPL 2. On Mon, Jan 12, 2009 at 2:46 AM, Jonathan Gray wrote: > > This looks great! > > I notice on the website it says it is open-source - out of interest, > what license is it under? > > Jonathan > > On Mon, Jan 12, 2009 at 5:13 AM, Lukasz Szybalski wrote: >> >> http://lucasmanual.com/mywiki/DataHub >> >> >> *Datahub is a tool that allows faster download/crawl, parse, load, >> and visualize of data. It achieves this by allowing you to divide each >> step into its own work folders. In each work folder you get a sample >> files that you can start coding. >> *Datahub is for people who found some interesting data source for >> them, they want to download it, parse it, load it into database, >> provide some documentation, and visualize it. Datahub will speed up >> the process by creating folder for each of these actions. You will >> create all the programs from our base default template and move on to >> analyzing the data in no time. >> >> How to get started?: Datahub is a python based tool and here is how to run it. >> >> **Create python virtualenviroment: >> virtualenv --no-site-packages datahubENV >> source datahubENV/bin/activate >> >> >> **How to get it: >> wget http://launchpad.net/datahub/trunk/0.7/+download/datahub-0.7.tar.gz >> tar -xzvf datahub-0.7.tar.gz >> >> ** Install it: >> cd datahub-0.7/ >> python setup.py install >> >> **Create you project using datahub default templates: >> >> paster create --list-templates >> paster create -t datahub >> >> ** Where do I start: >> Above commands created a project skeleton that has 4 folders: crawl >> (sample code to download via wget or harvestman), parse (here is where >> you parse raw data), load (here is where you load the data into >> database using sqlalchemy or a tool of your choice), hdf5 (convert to >> hdf5 if you don't want to use database), wiki (provide some >> documentation) >> >> >> This is a first release, so feedback is appreciated. Give it a try if >> you have some interesting data to deal with. >> >> Thanks, >> Lucas >> >> > >> > > --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ > [from the http://groups.google.com/group/get-theinfo mailing list] > -~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~--- > > From fasteliteprogrammer at yahoo.com Wed Jan 14 15:44:48 2009 From: fasteliteprogrammer at yahoo.com (Craig) Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2009 06:44:48 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Chicago] eclipse pydev plugin question Message-ID: <380977.24532.qm@web36501.mail.mud.yahoo.com> I useing linux how do i setup my python 2.5.4 to make my own project in eclipse? From brian.james.fox at gmail.com Wed Jan 14 16:23:37 2009 From: brian.james.fox at gmail.com (Brian Fox) Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2009 09:23:37 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] eclipse pydev plugin question In-Reply-To: <380977.24532.qm@web36501.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <380977.24532.qm@web36501.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <13c49eee0901140723h4a046478v9fa8b9644e835fce@mail.gmail.com> http://letmegooglethatforyou.com/?q=python+elcipse+linux Brian J. Fox On Wed, Jan 14, 2009 at 8:44 AM, Craig wrote: > I useing linux how do i setup my python 2.5.4 to make my own project in > eclipse? > > > > _______________________________________________ > Chicago mailing list > Chicago at python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From fasteliteprogrammer at yahoo.com Wed Jan 14 16:32:16 2009 From: fasteliteprogrammer at yahoo.com (Craig) Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2009 07:32:16 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Chicago] eclipse pydev plugin question Message-ID: <496193.14534.qm@web36506.mail.mud.yahoo.com> if your not going to help me don't reply to it. --- On Wed, 1/14/09, Brian Fox wrote: From: Brian Fox Subject: Re: [Chicago] eclipse pydev plugin question To: "The Chicago Python Users Group" Date: Wednesday, January 14, 2009, 9:23 AM -----Inline Attachment Follows----- http://letmegooglethatforyou.com/?q=python+elcipse+linux Brian J. Fox On Wed, Jan 14, 2009 at 8:44 AM, Craig wrote: I useing linux how do i setup ?my python 2.5.4 to make my own project in eclipse? _______________________________________________ Chicago mailing list Chicago at python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ Chicago mailing list Chicago at python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lists at durin42.com Wed Jan 14 16:35:30 2009 From: lists at durin42.com (Augie Fackler) Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2009 09:35:30 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] eclipse pydev plugin question In-Reply-To: <496193.14534.qm@web36506.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <496193.14534.qm@web36506.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: The second hit on the (not misspelled) Google search looks like it might be helpful. Seriously, try helping yourself before asking - it's just good manners. Google Is Your Friend. If you can't find it on Google, and someone sends you a Google search, maybe you should stop a moment and take a look at the words they searched to improve your Google-fu. On Jan 14, 2009, at 9:32 AM, Craig wrote: > if your not going to help me don't reply to it. > > --- On Wed, 1/14/09, Brian Fox wrote: > > From: Brian Fox > Subject: Re: [Chicago] eclipse pydev plugin question > To: "The Chicago Python Users Group" > Date: Wednesday, January 14, 2009, 9:23 AM > > > -----Inline Attachment Follows----- > > http://letmegooglethatforyou.com/?q=python+elcipse+linux > > Brian J. Fox > > > On Wed, Jan 14, 2009 at 8:44 AM, Craig > wrote: > I useing linux how do i setup my python 2.5.4 to make my own > project in eclipse? > > > > _______________________________________________ > Chicago mailing list > Chicago at python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago > > > -----Inline Attachment Follows----- > > _______________________________________________ > Chicago mailing list > Chicago at python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago > > _______________________________________________ > Chicago mailing list > Chicago at python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From brian.james.fox at gmail.com Wed Jan 14 16:38:27 2009 From: brian.james.fox at gmail.com (Brian Fox) Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2009 09:38:27 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] eclipse pydev plugin question In-Reply-To: References: <496193.14534.qm@web36506.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <13c49eee0901140738j34f82cf8l9719722560b5fa4d@mail.gmail.com> Sorry about the misspelled google search. I was not trying to be mean when I sent it. Brian J. Fox On Wed, Jan 14, 2009 at 9:35 AM, Augie Fackler wrote: > The second hit on the (not misspelled) Google search looks like it might be > helpful. > Seriously, try helping yourself before asking - it's just good manners. > Google Is Your Friend. If you can't find it on Google, and someone sends you > a Google search, maybe you should stop a moment and take a look at the words > they searched to improve your Google-fu. > > > On Jan 14, 2009, at 9:32 AM, Craig wrote: > > if your not going to help me don't reply to it. > > --- On *Wed, 1/14/09, Brian Fox * wrote: > > > From: Brian Fox > Subject: Re: [Chicago] eclipse pydev plugin question > To: "The Chicago Python Users Group" > Date: Wednesday, January 14, 2009, 9:23 AM > > > -----Inline Attachment Follows----- > > http://letmegooglethatforyou.com/?q=python+elcipse+linux > > Brian J. Fox > > > On Wed, Jan 14, 2009 at 8:44 AM, Craig > > wrote: > >> I useing linux how do i setup my python 2.5.4 to make my own project in >> eclipse? >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Chicago mailing list >> Chicago at python.org >> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago >> > > > -----Inline Attachment Follows----- > > _______________________________________________ > Chicago mailing list > Chicago at python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago > > > _______________________________________________ > Chicago mailing list > Chicago at python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From fasteliteprogrammer at yahoo.com Wed Jan 14 16:38:59 2009 From: fasteliteprogrammer at yahoo.com (Craig) Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2009 07:38:59 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Chicago] eclipse pydev plugin question Message-ID: <664599.39913.qm@web36508.mail.mud.yahoo.com> i check google before i asked. --- On Wed, 1/14/09, Augie Fackler wrote: From: Augie Fackler Subject: Re: [Chicago] eclipse pydev plugin question To: "The Chicago Python Users Group" Date: Wednesday, January 14, 2009, 9:35 AM The second hit on the (not misspelled) Google search looks like it might be helpful. Seriously, try helping yourself before asking - it's just good manners. Google Is Your Friend. If you can't find it on Google, and someone sends you a Google search, maybe you should stop a moment and take a look at the words they searched to improve your Google-fu. On Jan 14, 2009, at 9:32 AM, Craig wrote: if your not going to help me don't reply to it. --- On Wed, 1/14/09, Brian Fox wrote: From: Brian Fox Subject: Re: [Chicago] eclipse pydev plugin question To: "The Chicago Python Users Group" Date: Wednesday, January 14, 2009, 9:23 AM -----Inline Attachment Follows----- http://letmegooglethatforyou.com/?q=python+elcipse+linux Brian J. Fox On Wed, Jan 14, 2009 at 8:44 AM, Craig wrote: I useing linux how do i setup ?my python 2.5.4 to make my own project in eclipse? _______________________________________________ Chicago mailing list Chicago at python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ Chicago mailing list Chicago at python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago _______________________________________________ Chicago mailing list Chicago at python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ Chicago mailing list Chicago at python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From fasteliteprogrammer at yahoo.com Wed Jan 14 16:40:16 2009 From: fasteliteprogrammer at yahoo.com (Craig) Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2009 07:40:16 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Chicago] eclipse pydev plugin question Message-ID: <867453.58695.qm@web36504.mail.mud.yahoo.com> i know i sorry but when i ask a question on irc they act like? act rude to me.There a pythonmonks.org is comeing out soon:) --- On Wed, 1/14/09, Brian Fox wrote: From: Brian Fox Subject: Re: [Chicago] eclipse pydev plugin question To: "python" Date: Wednesday, January 14, 2009, 9:38 AM -----Inline Attachment Follows----- Sorry about the misspelled google search.? I was not trying to be mean when I sent it. Brian J. Fox On Wed, Jan 14, 2009 at 9:35 AM, Augie Fackler wrote: The second hit on the (not misspelled) Google search looks like it might be helpful. Seriously, try helping yourself before asking - it's just good manners. Google Is Your Friend. If you can't find it on Google, and someone sends you a Google search, maybe you should stop a moment and take a look at the words they searched to improve your Google-fu. On Jan 14, 2009, at 9:32 AM, Craig wrote: if your not going to help me don't reply to it. --- On Wed, 1/14/09, Brian Fox wrote: From: Brian Fox Subject: Re: [Chicago] eclipse pydev plugin question To: "The Chicago Python Users Group" Date: Wednesday, January 14, 2009, 9:23 AM -----Inline Attachment Follows----- http://letmegooglethatforyou.com/?q=python+elcipse+linux Brian J. Fox On Wed, Jan 14, 2009 at 8:44 AM, Craig wrote: I useing linux how do i setup ?my python 2.5.4 to make my own project in eclipse? _______________________________________________ Chicago mailing list Chicago at python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ Chicago mailing list Chicago at python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago _______________________________________________ Chicago mailing list Chicago at python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ Chicago mailing list Chicago at python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From shekay at pobox.com Wed Jan 14 17:42:08 2009 From: shekay at pobox.com (sheila miguez) Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2009 10:42:08 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] eclipse pydev plugin question In-Reply-To: <867453.58695.qm@web36504.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <867453.58695.qm@web36504.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Tips on how to ask questions. This will explain some of the hostility you've been experiencing. http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html On Wed, Jan 14, 2009 at 9:40 AM, Craig wrote: > i know i sorry but when i ask a question on irc they act like act rude to > me.There a pythonmonks.org is comeing out soon:) > > --- On Wed, 1/14/09, Brian Fox wrote: > > From: Brian Fox > Subject: Re: [Chicago] eclipse pydev plugin question > To: "python" > Date: Wednesday, January 14, 2009, 9:38 AM > > > -----Inline Attachment Follows----- > > Sorry about the misspelled google search. I was not trying to be mean when > I sent it. > > Brian J. Fox > > > On Wed, Jan 14, 2009 at 9:35 AM, Augie Fackler wrote: >> >> The second hit on the (not misspelled) Google search looks like it might >> be helpful. >> Seriously, try helping yourself before asking - it's just good manners. >> Google Is Your Friend. If you can't find it on Google, and someone sends you >> a Google search, maybe you should stop a moment and take a look at the words >> they searched to improve your Google-fu. >> >> On Jan 14, 2009, at 9:32 AM, Craig wrote: >> >> if your not going to help me don't reply to it. >> >> --- On Wed, 1/14/09, Brian Fox wrote: >> >> From: Brian Fox >> Subject: Re: [Chicago] eclipse pydev plugin question >> To: "The Chicago Python Users Group" >> Date: Wednesday, January 14, 2009, 9:23 AM >> >> >> -----Inline Attachment Follows----- >> >> http://letmegooglethatforyou.com/?q=python+elcipse+linux >> >> Brian J. Fox >> >> >> On Wed, Jan 14, 2009 at 8:44 AM, Craig >> wrote: >>> >>> I useing linux how do i setup my python 2.5.4 to make my own project in >>> eclipse? >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Chicago mailing list >>> Chicago at python.org >>> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago >> >> >> -----Inline Attachment Follows----- >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Chicago mailing list >> Chicago at python.org >> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Chicago mailing list >> Chicago at python.org >> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago >> > > > -----Inline Attachment Follows----- > > _______________________________________________ > Chicago mailing list > Chicago at python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago > > > _______________________________________________ > Chicago mailing list > Chicago at python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago > > -- sheila From bray at sent.com Wed Jan 14 18:14:22 2009 From: bray at sent.com (Brian Ray) Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2009 11:14:22 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] eclipse pydev plugin question In-Reply-To: References: <867453.58695.qm@web36504.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <204D5674-9F06-4638-A3E7-483BA26705AA@sent.com> On Jan 14, 2009, at 10:42 AM, sheila miguez wrote: > Tips on how to ask questions. This will explain some of the hostility > you've been experiencing. > > http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html This is great. We can all learn or be reminded on how to ask questions in this forum. Looking through the list, there are some questions that get good responses. It seems that *how* the questions are asked has a lot to do with this. In this case, I would start with "Be precise and informative about your problem." If one starts with a question that is only one sentence, I do not see how this can be considered informative. One may need to explain in as much detail as possible what your asking, why your asking, and put it into perspective. We all come from different backgrounds and might be able to help-- nonetheless, one needs to put some work into asking the question. Brian Ray From maney at two14.net Wed Jan 14 21:38:38 2009 From: maney at two14.net (Martin Maney) Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2009 14:38:38 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] eclipse pydev plugin question In-Reply-To: <204D5674-9F06-4638-A3E7-483BA26705AA@sent.com> References: <867453.58695.qm@web36504.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <204D5674-9F06-4638-A3E7-483BA26705AA@sent.com> Message-ID: <20090114203838.GA22652@furrr.two14.net> On Wed, Jan 14, 2009 at 11:14:22AM -0600, Brian Ray wrote: > Looking through the list, there are some questions that get good > responses. It seems that *how* the questions are asked has a lot to do > with this. That's most of Raymond's whole essay in a nutshell right there. You go, B. -- Among the greater ironies of the computer age is the fact that information is cheap and accessible, and so it is no longer very valuable. What is valuable is what one does with it. And human imagination cannot be mechanized. -- the New York Times From g at rrett.us.com Thu Jan 15 20:24:11 2009 From: g at rrett.us.com (Garrett Smith) Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2009 13:24:11 -0600 (CST) Subject: [Chicago] Graphing libraries Message-ID: <107715994.4168391232047451494.JavaMail.root@mail-3.01.com> Any thoughts on the most awesomest graphing library for Python? I need something that's free of weird commercial licenses, obviously. Simple APIs are preferred. Performance and efficiency are very important. The ability to create pretty pictures is a bonus, but this is first for foremost for utility. Most, if not all, of the data will be time series. I'm using rrdtools, which of course is very good for managing and graphing time series data. This may ultimately be the right course, but I'm wondering if anyone has some insight into some other options in the Python world. Thanks for any input! Garrett From g at rrett.us.com Thu Jan 15 20:29:19 2009 From: g at rrett.us.com (Garrett Smith) Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2009 13:29:19 -0600 (CST) Subject: [Chicago] [ChiPy-announce] Graphing library In-Reply-To: <741610EC-8D3D-49DE-9D3A-AEDA24D4716E@gmail.com> Message-ID: <1865572880.4171021232047759955.JavaMail.root@mail-3.01.com> That is pretty freakin' awesome. Will take a look. (And sorry for posting to the wrong list -- hard to keep track of all these Chipy channels.) ----- "Rob Kapteyn" wrote: > matplotlib is easily the most awesome -- and it was done by Chicago's John Hunter who did a ChiPy presentation on it 2-3 years ago. > http://matplotlib.sourceforge.net/ > > The main caveat is that it that it can be a bit confusing to set it up the first time. it requires numpy and a bunch some external font tools and libraries. It has a lot of flexibility -- i.e., you can generate graphics files or interact with a GUI in real time. My experience is that it is very fast and efficient -- once you get it set up. > -Rob > > On Jan 15, 2009, at 10:42 AM, Garrett Smith wrote: > Any thoughts on the most awesomest graphing library for Python? > > I need something that's free of weird commercial licenses, obviously. > > Simple APIs are preferred. Performance and efficiency are very important. The ability to create pretty pictures is a bonus, but this is first for foremost for utility. > > Most, if not all, of the data will be time series. > > I'm using rrdtools, which of course is very good for managing and graphing time series data. This may ultimately be the right course, but I'm wondering if anyone has some insight into some other options in the Python world. > > Thanks for any input! > > Garrett > _______________________________________________ > ChiPy-announce mailing list > ChiPy-announce at python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chipy-announce > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From allan2600 at gmail.com Thu Jan 15 20:46:50 2009 From: allan2600 at gmail.com (Allan Spale) Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2009 13:46:50 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] [ChiPy-announce] Graphing library In-Reply-To: <1865572880.4171021232047759955.JavaMail.root@mail-3.01.com> References: <741610EC-8D3D-49DE-9D3A-AEDA24D4716E@gmail.com> <1865572880.4171021232047759955.JavaMail.root@mail-3.01.com> Message-ID: <79acc5430901151146w541b86adu84bbd449172b57d0@mail.gmail.com> Should you want to go more heavily toward 3-D info/data viz or volume visualization, I would strongly recommend VTK (http://www.vtk.org/) which has multiple language bindings including Python. Allan On Thu, Jan 15, 2009 at 1:29 PM, Garrett Smith wrote: > That is pretty freakin' awesome. Will take a look. > > (And sorry for posting to the wrong list -- hard to keep track of all these > Chipy channels.) > > ----- "Rob Kapteyn" wrote: > > matplotlib is easily the most awesome -- and it was done by Chicago's > John Hunter who did a ChiPy presentation on it 2-3 years ago. > > > http://matplotlib.sourceforge.net/ > > > > > The main caveat is that it that it can be a bit confusing to set it up the > first time. > it requires numpy and a bunch some external font tools and libraries. > It has a lot of flexibility -- i.e., you can generate graphics files or > interact with a GUI in real time. > My experience is that it is very fast and efficient -- once you get it set > up. > > > > -Rob > > > > > > On Jan 15, 2009, at 10:42 AM, Garrett Smith wrote: > > > Any thoughts on the most awesomest graphing library for Python? > > > > I need something that's free of weird commercial licenses, obviously. > > > > Simple APIs are preferred. Performance and efficiency are very important. > The ability to create pretty pictures is a bonus, but this is first for > foremost for utility. > > > > Most, if not all, of the data will be time series. > > > > I'm using rrdtools, which of course is very good for managing and > graphing time series data. This may ultimately be the right course, but I'm > wondering if anyone has some insight into some other options in the Python > world. > > > > Thanks for any input! > > > > Garrett > > > _______________________________________________ > > ChiPy-announce mailing list > > ChiPy-announce at python.org > > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chipy-announce > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Chicago mailing list > Chicago at python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kumar.mcmillan at gmail.com Thu Jan 15 22:01:58 2009 From: kumar.mcmillan at gmail.com (Kumar McMillan) Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2009 15:01:58 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] Graphing libraries In-Reply-To: <107715994.4168391232047451494.JavaMail.root@mail-3.01.com> References: <107715994.4168391232047451494.JavaMail.root@mail-3.01.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Jan 15, 2009 at 1:24 PM, Garrett Smith wrote: > Any thoughts on the most awesomest graphing library for Python? There is a wrapper around matplotlib (and others) that I just found out about today called NetworkX: http://networkx.lanl.gov/ It seems well suited to visualizing large clusters of data so may not be good for time series. But it's pretty nice. I installed graphviz / pygraphviz as the backend (instead of matplotlib) and that didn't take too long using macports. -Kumar > > I need something that's free of weird commercial licenses, obviously. > > Simple APIs are preferred. Performance and efficiency are very important. The ability to create pretty pictures is a bonus, but this is first for foremost for utility. > > Most, if not all, of the data will be time series. > > I'm using rrdtools, which of course is very good for managing and graphing time series data. This may ultimately be the right course, but I'm wondering if anyone has some insight into some other options in the Python world. > > Thanks for any input! > > Garrett > _______________________________________________ > Chicago mailing list > Chicago at python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago > From jason at panopta.com Thu Jan 15 22:10:31 2009 From: jason at panopta.com (Jason Abate) Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2009 15:10:31 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] Graphing libraries In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <496FA647.307@panopta.com> Take a look at ChartDirector at http://www.advsofteng.com/. We've been using their Python version for a while and have found it to be easy to work with, has lots of flexibility in terms of graph layout and decoration, and it draws impressive graphs pretty quickly. It's a commercial library - depending on what you're doing it might not be appropriate or might get expensive, but for a centralized webapp it's not bad. -jason -- Jason Abate Panopta | We see it all jason at panopta.com http://www.panopta.com chicago-request at python.org wrote: > Any thoughts on the most awesomest graphing library for Python? > > I need something that's free of weird commercial licenses, obviously. > From special.kevin at gmail.com Thu Jan 15 22:58:55 2009 From: special.kevin at gmail.com (Kevin Harriss) Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2009 15:58:55 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] Graphing libraries In-Reply-To: <107715994.4168391232047451494.JavaMail.root@mail-3.01.com> References: <107715994.4168391232047451494.JavaMail.root@mail-3.01.com> Message-ID: <97b3d1fd0901151358q25358e03i9f47426e49c97052@mail.gmail.com> I have heard a lot of good things about CairoPlot[1]. It seems to make some pretty pictures and looks really simple to use. [1] https://launchpad.net/cairoplot Kevin - specialKevin - Kevin Harriss - http://www.specialkevin.com On Thu, Jan 15, 2009 at 1:24 PM, Garrett Smith wrote: > Any thoughts on the most awesomest graphing library for Python? > > I need something that's free of weird commercial licenses, obviously. > > Simple APIs are preferred. Performance and efficiency are very important. > The ability to create pretty pictures is a bonus, but this is first for > foremost for utility. > > Most, if not all, of the data will be time series. > > I'm using rrdtools, which of course is very good for managing and graphing > time series data. This may ultimately be the right course, but I'm wondering > if anyone has some insight into some other options in the Python world. > > Thanks for any input! > > Garrett > _______________________________________________ > Chicago mailing list > Chicago at python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From szybalski at gmail.com Fri Jan 16 06:28:59 2009 From: szybalski at gmail.com (Lukasz Szybalski) Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2009 23:28:59 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] PYPI source code? Message-ID: <804e5c70901152128o1bf63d76kcce57c9fb6230a62@mail.gmail.com> Hello, I was wondering if there is a source code for PYPI interface? What I would like to do is create something similar to pypi but with special projects. Instead of people uploading it to pypi they would upload it to "myPyPI" but this would be highly selective package index. 1. Is there a source for PyPI? 2. What do I need to do to run it on my server? 3. How can I have same functionality as python setup.py register aka python setup.py register myPyPi (or something along these lines?) Thanks, Lucas -- How to create python package? http://lucasmanual.com/mywiki/PythonPaste Bazaar and Launchpad http://lucasmanual.com/mywiki/Bazaar From ralphgreen at yahoo.com Fri Jan 16 15:49:20 2009 From: ralphgreen at yahoo.com (Ralph Green) Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2009 06:49:20 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Chicago] Graphing libraries In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <273451.94894.qm@web36601.mail.mud.yahoo.com> We used Chart Director for several years, and were very happy with it.? While we used it for graphing, it is much more versatile if you need more.? We had a technical issue early on, and the support was great. ? While this is not a graphing library, having the service worked out well for us.? We were able to use it for more than we originally intended. ? -Ralph Green Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2009 15:10:31 -0600 From: Jason Abate Subject: Re: [Chicago] Graphing libraries To: chicago at python.org Message-ID: <496FA647.307 at panopta.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Take a look at ChartDirector at http://www.advsofteng.com/.? We've been using their Python version for a while and have found it to be easy to work with, has lots of flexibility in terms of graph layout and decoration, and it draws impressive graphs pretty quickly. It's a commercial library - depending on what you're doing it might not be appropriate or might get expensive, but for a centralized webapp it's not bad. -jason -- Jason Abate Panopta | We see it all jason at panopta.com http://www.panopta.com chicago-request at python.org wrote: > Any thoughts on the most awesomest graphing library for Python? > > I need something that's free of weird commercial licenses, obviously. >?? ------------------------------ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cosmin at offbytwo.com Fri Jan 16 16:42:18 2009 From: cosmin at offbytwo.com (Cosmin Stejerean) Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2009 09:42:18 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] PYPI source code? In-Reply-To: <804e5c70901152128o1bf63d76kcce57c9fb6230a62@mail.gmail.com> References: <804e5c70901152128o1bf63d76kcce57c9fb6230a62@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <383bbcce0901160742q15b4560ay889f991ca27e37f3@mail.gmail.com> On Thu, Jan 15, 2009 at 11:28 PM, Lukasz Szybalski wrote: > Hello, > I was wondering if there is a source code for PYPI interface? > > What I would like to do is create something similar to pypi but with > special projects. Instead of people uploading it to pypi they would > upload it to "myPyPI" but this would be highly selective package > index. > > 1. Is there a source for PyPI? > 2. What do I need to do to run it on my server? > 3. How can I have same functionality as python setup.py register aka > python setup.py register myPyPi (or something along these lines?) > > > Thanks, > Lucas > > There was a lightning talk at last year's PyCon about a custom server similar to pypi that you could use for internal purposes. I can't remember the name though. Anyone else know what it was called? -- Cosmin Stejerean http://offbytwo.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kumar.mcmillan at gmail.com Fri Jan 16 17:51:08 2009 From: kumar.mcmillan at gmail.com (Kumar McMillan) Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2009 10:51:08 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] PYPI source code? In-Reply-To: <383bbcce0901160742q15b4560ay889f991ca27e37f3@mail.gmail.com> References: <804e5c70901152128o1bf63d76kcce57c9fb6230a62@mail.gmail.com> <383bbcce0901160742q15b4560ay889f991ca27e37f3@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Jan 16, 2009 at 9:42 AM, Cosmin Stejerean wrote: > On Thu, Jan 15, 2009 at 11:28 PM, Lukasz Szybalski > wrote: >> >> Hello, >> I was wondering if there is a source code for PYPI interface? yes, it is all here: http://wiki.python.org/moin/CheeseShopDev I've poked around the source a bit for a [now deceased] pet project of mine: http://pypi.appspot.com/ >> >> What I would like to do is create something similar to pypi but with >> special projects. Instead of people uploading it to pypi they would >> upload it to "myPyPI" but this would be highly selective package >> index. There is a project made just for you! It is a turbogears app called EggBasket http://chrisarndt.de/projects/eggbasket/ and I've played around with it some. We run something similar at work (hand rolled) that pre-dates EggBasket but eventually I hope to replace ours. EggBasket does exactly what you want and I think the lightning talk Cosmin mentioned was on this topic. >> >> 1. Is there a source for PyPI? >> 2. What do I need to do to run it on my server? >> 3. How can I have same functionality as python setup.py register aka >> python setup.py register myPyPi (or something along these lines?) EggBasket requires turbogears and supports the register command -Kumar From cwebber at dustycloud.org Fri Jan 16 19:50:18 2009 From: cwebber at dustycloud.org (Christopher Allan Webber) Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2009 12:50:18 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] Graphing libraries In-Reply-To: <97b3d1fd0901151358q25358e03i9f47426e49c97052@mail.gmail.com> (Kevin Harriss's message of "Thu, 15 Jan 2009 15:58:55 -0600") References: <107715994.4168391232047451494.JavaMail.root@mail-3.01.com> <97b3d1fd0901151358q25358e03i9f47426e49c97052@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <87iqofkrv9.fsf@dustycloud.org> Hot damn. I haven't tried it yet, but those graphs are *sexy*. "Kevin Harriss" writes: > I have heard a lot of good things about CairoPlot[1]. It seems to make some > pretty pictures and looks really simple to use. > > [1] https://launchpad.net/cairoplot > > Kevin > > - specialKevin > - Kevin Harriss > - http://www.specialkevin.com > > On Thu, Jan 15, 2009 at 1:24 PM, Garrett Smith wrote: > > Any thoughts on the most awesomest graphing library for Python? > > I need something that's free of weird commercial licenses, obviously. > > Simple APIs are preferred. Performance and efficiency are very important. > The ability to create pretty pictures is a bonus, but this is first for > foremost for utility. > > Most, if not all, of the data will be time series. > > I'm using rrdtools, which of course is very good for managing and graphing > time series data. This may ultimately be the right course, but I'm > wondering if anyone has some insight into some other options in the Python > world. > > Thanks for any input! > > Garrett > _______________________________________________ > Chicago mailing list > Chicago at python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago > > _______________________________________________ > Chicago mailing list > Chicago at python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago From g at rrett.us.com Fri Jan 16 20:15:37 2009 From: g at rrett.us.com (Garrett Smith) Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2009 13:15:37 -0600 (CST) Subject: [Chicago] Graphing libraries In-Reply-To: <87iqofkrv9.fsf@dustycloud.org> Message-ID: <1976754836.5218931232133337681.JavaMail.root@mail-3.01.com> ----- "Christopher Allan Webber" wrote: > Hot damn. I haven't tried it yet, but those graphs are *sexy*. > > "Kevin Harriss" writes: > >> I have heard a lot of good things about CairoPlot[1]. I'm actually thinking about moving the graphing function out to the client using Flash. There are some compelling benefits all around -- in particular, the client handles the load, which turns out to be non-trivial at even moderate scale on the server. And you like sexy, Flash can create stuff that's downright nasty slinky. From cwebber at dustycloud.org Fri Jan 16 21:09:09 2009 From: cwebber at dustycloud.org (Christopher Allan Webber) Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2009 14:09:09 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] Graphing libraries In-Reply-To: <1976754836.5218931232133337681.JavaMail.root@mail-3.01.com> (Garrett Smith's message of "Fri, 16 Jan 2009 13:15:37 -0600 (CST)") References: <1976754836.5218931232133337681.JavaMail.root@mail-3.01.com> Message-ID: <878wpbko7u.fsf@dustycloud.org> Garrett Smith writes: > ----- "Christopher Allan Webber" wrote: > >> Hot damn. I haven't tried it yet, but those graphs are *sexy*. >> >> "Kevin Harriss" writes: >> >>> I have heard a lot of good things about CairoPlot[1]. > > I'm actually thinking about moving the graphing function out to the client using Flash. There are some compelling benefits all around -- in particular, the client handles the load, which turns out to be non-trivial at even moderate scale on the server. > > And you like sexy, Flash can create stuff that's downright nasty slinky. I like sexy, but I don't like proprietary, crappy flash. :( From richgor at northwestern.edu Fri Jan 16 19:29:02 2009 From: richgor at northwestern.edu (Rich Gordon) Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2009 12:29:02 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] ANN: Journalism scholarships for coders Message-ID: <015501c97808$509f04c0$f1dd0e40$@edu> Chicago Python folks: Please forgive the interruption, but your group's leadership thinks this announcement would be of interest to some folks on your list: The Medill School at Northwestern University, one of the nation's top journalism schools, has a unique opportunity for skilled programmer-developers: full scholarships to attend our one-year master's program. The scholarships, financed through a grant from the John S. and James L. Knight Foundation, cover tuition and expenses. Students can enroll starting in June or September 2009, or January 2010. (The program may be extended beyond then, but we won't know that for a while.) You can learn more about the scholarships on our Web site at . Why are we doing this? Simple. The world of media and journalism is changing rapidly. People who understand coding and journalism are in great demand now -- at traditional media companies as well as startups. Newsrooms want journalists who can help figure out the best way to present data-driven stories on digital platforms. Media companies want people who can build better systems for news production and distribution. Startup companies want developers who understand how people use and consume information. And there are endless opportunities to create new digital products that engage audiences with information they need to be citizens. With programming experience and a master's degree from Medill, the scholarship winners will be perfectly positioned to help invent the future of media and journalism. For a programmer's perspective, read this Q&A I did with the first two scholarship winners: . What scholarship winners do: For the first three calendar quarters, they study the craft, culture and process of journalism - reporting, writing and storytelling - as well as choosing from a variety of elective courses. In their final quarter, the "programmer-journalists" enroll in one of our innovation courses, in which they collaborate with other master's students to invent something new and relevant to journalism and media. The team including the first two scholarship winners just wrapped up by launching News Mixer (), a site designed to engage young adults in conversation and interaction around the news. You can read more about News Mixer at . (And check out the reaction the project has been getting: .) Last week I attended the ChiPY meeting in downtown Chicago and made a brief announcement about the scholarship program. If you'd like to hear more about it at a future program, please let me and Brian Ray know. And if you were one of the members who talked to me after the meeting and haven't been in touch with me since then, please let me know. Any questions? Feel free to contact me: richgor - at - northwestern.edu, or the phone number below. Rich Gordon Associate Professor, Director of Digital Media in Education Medill School, Northwestern University 1870 Campus Drive Evanston, IL 60208 (847) 467-5968 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From g at rrett.us.com Fri Jan 16 22:19:12 2009 From: g at rrett.us.com (Garrett Smith) Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2009 15:19:12 -0600 (CST) Subject: [Chicago] Graphing libraries In-Reply-To: <878wpbko7u.fsf@dustycloud.org> Message-ID: <393473473.5306901232140752897.JavaMail.root@mail-3.01.com> ----- "Christopher Allan Webber" wrote: > Garrett Smith writes: > > > And you like sexy, Flash can create stuff that's downright nasty > slinky. > > I like sexy, but I don't like proprietary, crappy flash. :( Know what you mean -- like plastic surgery -- only runs so deep. Still, I can be pretty damn superficial at times. From allan2600 at gmail.com Sat Jan 17 00:36:24 2009 From: allan2600 at gmail.com (Allan Spale) Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2009 17:36:24 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] ANN: Journalism scholarships for coders In-Reply-To: <015501c97808$509f04c0$f1dd0e40$@edu> References: <015501c97808$509f04c0$f1dd0e40$@edu> Message-ID: <79acc5430901161536l867a97bp26865b95adea1ab1@mail.gmail.com> Hi Mr. Gordon, My name is Allan Spale, and I am evaluating if I should apply to the Medill School program. To give you some background about myself, my training is in computer science. I received a bachelor's of science in February 2000, a master's degree in December 2002, and even tried my hand at a PhD in computer until May 2005. During my graduate school years, I worked at the Electronic Visualization Laboratory, a computer graphics research laboratory at the University of Illinois at Chicago (http://www.evl.uic.edu). There I worked with new media artists and scientists as we explored areas of large scale data visualization and collaborative environments and displays as well as novel means of interacting with computer graphics. Here are just a few of some of the projects I worked on: (SAGE: http://www.evl.uic.edu/cavern/sage/index.php, Access Grid: http://www.accessgrid.org/). Some of my interests included data visualization and user interface design. After leaving the PhD program, I spent a couple of years doing IT work at UIC, and then left my position to pursue starting a software consulting business around a system I was designing called Kaleidoscope. This system is designed to help people organize and share data of any size in new ways in addition to reacting to changes in data. Put more simply, think of this as a personalized content management system. For instance, a simple word processing documents can have different views that include grammatical parsing, visual formatting, annotations, etc. Elements from these different views can be interlinked similarly to how hyperlinks link text except that these links can connect items together according to a categorical or property relation. Unfortunately, I was unable to surround myself with a team of developers and business people (and of course, funding), so I was unable to continue developing the project and have been job hunting since the fall. Someone recently told me that this system might be a good fit for use with newspapers, and I think that this is true. So, for now, I am trying to find a job and doing part-time work where I can, but I am intrigued by the degree. If I did apply, I looked at the website and am concerned about the application deadline for summer. It was not exactly clear to me when the deadline was because only the early deadline was posted. I also am a little leery about the GRE because I have not been in school for years and am not a good test taker. More importantly, I do not know if this is really the right path for me, so if you have any feedback based on my brief overview of the work I have done, it would be greatly appreciated. Thanks for your time and I look forward to hearing back from you. Allan On Fri, Jan 16, 2009 at 12:29 PM, Rich Gordon wrote: > Chicago Python folks: > > > > Please forgive the interruption, but your group's leadership thinks this > announcement would be of interest to some folks on your list: > > > > The Medill School at Northwestern University, one of the nation's top > journalism schools, has a unique opportunity for skilled > programmer-developers: full scholarships to attend our one-year master's > program. The scholarships, financed through a grant from the John S. and > James L. Knight Foundation, cover tuition and expenses. Students can enroll > starting in June or September 2009, or January 2010. (The program may be > extended beyond then, but we won't know that for a while.) You can learn > more about the scholarships on our Web site at < > http://www.medill.northwestern.edu/admissions/page.aspx?id=58645>. > > > > Why are we doing this? Simple. The world of media and journalism is > changing rapidly. People who understand coding and journalism are in great > demand now -- at traditional media companies as well as startups. Newsrooms > want journalists who can help figure out the best way to present data-driven > stories on digital platforms. Media companies want people who can build > better systems for news production and distribution. Startup companies want > developers who understand how people use and consume information. And there > are endless opportunities to create new digital products that engage > audiences with information they need to be citizens. With programming > experience and a master's degree from Medill, the scholarship winners will > be perfectly positioned to help invent the future of media and journalism. > For a programmer's perspective, read this Q&A I did with the first two > scholarship winners: < > http://www.pbs.org/idealab/2009/01/two-coders-head-off-to-fix-journalism015.html>. > > > > > What scholarship winners do: For the first three calendar quarters, they > study the craft, culture and process of journalism ? reporting, writing and > storytelling ? as well as choosing from a variety of elective courses. In > their final quarter, the "programmer-journalists" enroll in one of our > innovation courses, in which they collaborate with other master's students > to invent something new and relevant to journalism and media. The team > including the first two scholarship winners just wrapped up by launching > News Mixer (), a site designed to engage young > adults in conversation and interaction around the news. You can read more > about News Mixer at < > http://www.medill.northwestern.edu/studentwork/archives.aspx?id=110531>. > (And check out the reaction the project has been getting: < > http://www.pbs.org/idealab/2009/01/news-mixer-generates-widespread-interest005.html > >.) > > > > Last week I attended the ChiPY meeting in downtown Chicago and made a brief > announcement about the scholarship program. If you'd like to hear more > about it at a future program, please let me and Brian Ray know. And if you > were one of the members who talked to me after the meeting and haven't been > in touch with me since then, please let me know. > > > > Any questions? Feel free to contact me: richgor ? at ? northwestern.edu, > or the phone number below. > > > > Rich Gordon > > Associate Professor, Director of Digital Media in Education > > Medill School, Northwestern University > > 1870 Campus Drive > > Evanston, IL 60208 > > (847) 467-5968 > > > > _______________________________________________ > Chicago mailing list > Chicago at python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From fasteliteprogrammer at yahoo.com Sat Jan 17 13:55:07 2009 From: fasteliteprogrammer at yahoo.com (Craig) Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2009 04:55:07 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Chicago] eclipse pydev plugin question Message-ID: <521287.98187.qm@web36506.mail.mud.yahoo.com> i got it to work. --- On Wed, 1/14/09, Brian Ray wrote: From: Brian Ray Subject: Re: [Chicago] eclipse pydev plugin question To: "The Chicago Python Users Group" Date: Wednesday, January 14, 2009, 11:14 AM On Jan 14, 2009, at 10:42 AM, sheila miguez wrote: > Tips on how to ask questions.? This will explain some of the hostility > you've been experiencing. > > http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html This is great. We can all learn or be reminded on how to ask questions in this forum. Looking through the list, there are some questions that get good responses. It seems that *how* the questions are asked has a lot to do with this.? In this case, I would start with "Be precise and informative about your problem."? If one starts with a question that is only one sentence, I do not see how this can be considered informative.? One may need to explain in as much detail as possible what your asking, why your asking, and put it into perspective. We all come from different backgrounds and might be able to help--nonetheless, one needs to put some work into asking the question. Brian Ray _______________________________________________ Chicago mailing list Chicago at python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From david.durham.jr at gmail.com Mon Jan 19 17:23:07 2009 From: david.durham.jr at gmail.com (David Durham) Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2009 10:23:07 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] Graphing libraries In-Reply-To: <1976754836.5218931232133337681.JavaMail.root@mail-3.01.com> References: <87iqofkrv9.fsf@dustycloud.org> <1976754836.5218931232133337681.JavaMail.root@mail-3.01.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Jan 16, 2009 at 1:15 PM, Garrett Smith wrote: > ----- "Christopher Allan Webber" wrote: > >> Hot damn. I haven't tried it yet, but those graphs are *sexy*. >> >> "Kevin Harriss" writes: >> >>> I have heard a lot of good things about CairoPlot[1]. > > I'm actually thinking about moving the graphing function out to the client using Flash. There are some compelling benefits all around -- in particular, the client handles the load, which turns out to be non-trivial at even moderate scale on the server. > > And you like sexy, Flash can create stuff that's downright nasty slinky. Here's a Demo of GWT-Ext charts: http://www.gwt-ext.com/demo-charts/ Look like this demo uses YUI charts underneath, with a GWT wrapper being the primary developer API (a.k.a., the leaky abstraction). Not sure what Pyjamas has to offer in the way of charts. Probably simple enough to write a Pyjamas wrapper for YUI charts if one does not exist. -Dave From jbsnyder at fanplastic.org Mon Jan 19 21:17:12 2009 From: jbsnyder at fanplastic.org (James Snyder) Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2009 14:17:12 -0600 (CST) Subject: [Chicago] Graphing libraries In-Reply-To: <97b3d1fd0901151358q25358e03i9f47426e49c97052@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <286692656.359761232396232863.JavaMail.root@mail-1.01.com> There's also a related library that uses Cairo as well, called PyCha: http://www.lorenzogil.com/projects/pycha/ (the URL takes some time to load, for some reason his Trac install is a bit sluggish). I have to say though, CairoPlot does look pretty sexy. If you're looking for some user interaction on the client side as well, without the ugliness of doing it in Flash, there's an implementation of Processing.org in JavaScript, written by John Resig of jQuery fame: http://ejohn.org/blog/processingjs/ It's in no way specific to doing time series data, but if sexy is what you're after, check out the molten bar chart example: http://ejohn.org/apps/processing.js/examples/custom/molten.html ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kevin Harriss" To: "The Chicago Python Users Group" Sent: Thursday, January 15, 2009 3:58:55 PM GMT -06:00 US/Canada Central Subject: Re: [Chicago] Graphing libraries I have heard a lot of good things about CairoPlot[1]. It seems to make some pretty pictures and looks really simple to use. [1] https://launchpad.net/cairoplot Kevin - specialKevin - Kevin Harriss - http://www.specialkevin.com On Thu, Jan 15, 2009 at 1:24 PM, Garrett Smith < g at rrett.us.com > wrote: Any thoughts on the most awesomest graphing library for Python? I need something that's free of weird commercial licenses, obviously. Simple APIs are preferred. Performance and efficiency are very important. The ability to create pretty pictures is a bonus, but this is first for foremost for utility. Most, if not all, of the data will be time series. I'm using rrdtools, which of course is very good for managing and graphing time series data. This may ultimately be the right course, but I'm wondering if anyone has some insight into some other options in the Python world. Thanks for any input! Garrett _______________________________________________ Chicago mailing list Chicago at python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago _______________________________________________ Chicago mailing list Chicago at python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From g at rrett.us.com Mon Jan 19 23:33:38 2009 From: g at rrett.us.com (Garrett Smith) Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2009 16:33:38 -0600 (CST) Subject: [Chicago] Graphing libraries In-Reply-To: <1475223335.728681232404335681.JavaMail.root@mail-3.01.com> Message-ID: <395145940.729241232404418228.JavaMail.root@mail-3.01.com> ----- "James Snyder" wrote: > If you're looking for some user interaction on the client side as well, without the ugliness of doing it in Flash I'll bite. So, I have a Flash disabler on Firefox (I recommend it) to avoid the obvious problems with ads. I do though appreciate the fact I can watch decent quality streaming video. The experience is 1000% better than running Java in the browser and, all in all, really not bad at all. I totally dig Google street view, which, as I recall, uses Flash. I can't really imagine running a desktop browser without Flash. Perhaps though I'm missing something -- is Adobe funding diamond mining in Senegal with their Flash juggernaut? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jbsnyder at fanplastic.org Tue Jan 20 05:16:50 2009 From: jbsnyder at fanplastic.org (James Snyder) Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2009 22:16:50 -0600 (CST) Subject: [Chicago] Graphing libraries In-Reply-To: <480771917.551701232424967775.JavaMail.root@mail-1.01.com> Message-ID: <662860270.551771232425010561.JavaMail.root@mail-1.01.com> Personally, I have no major technical complaints about Flash at the moment, and I get irritated if I have a desktop browser that doesn't have a stable Flash implementation (thank you Adobe for finally doing a 64-bit native Flash for Linux!). That said, I think my own aversion to building anything on top of it is just that it's closed. There's also no free/open implementation of it that doesn't fall short in some major way. I'm not sure if I'm in the minority or not, but I'd say that I've often been eventually burned by relying on some sort of proprietary or closed platform. Flash is a little more ubiquitous than some closed things that I've had trouble with in the past, but I'd still remain hesitant. The other distinction that I would certainly draw with something like this is that if I'm writing something I plan to use once, or a few times, I care much less about this issue. This is a much bigger deal if the project might be maintained over an indefinite period of time. -jsnyder P.S.: I am not an FSF zealot. Closed vs. open does not make anything either evil or not. Although there are certainly evil open projects: http://vigor.sourceforge.net/ ----- Original Message ----- From: "Garrett Smith" To: "The Chicago Python Users Group" Sent: Monday, January 19, 2009 4:33:38 PM GMT -06:00 US/Canada Central Subject: Re: [Chicago] Graphing libraries ----- "James Snyder" wrote: > If you're looking for some user interaction on the client side as well, without the ugliness of doing it in Flash I'll bite. So, I have a Flash disabler on Firefox (I recommend it) to avoid the obvious problems with ads. I do though appreciate the fact I can watch decent quality streaming video. The experience is 1000% better than running Java in the browser and, all in all, really not bad at all. I totally dig Google street view, which, as I recall, uses Flash. I can't really imagine running a desktop browser without Flash. Perhaps though I'm missing something -- is Adobe funding diamond mining in Senegal with their Flash juggernaut? _______________________________________________ Chicago mailing list Chicago at python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From GogineniS at corning.com Tue Jan 20 16:58:52 2009 From: GogineniS at corning.com (Gogineni, Sravani) Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2009 10:58:52 -0500 Subject: [Chicago] tests for Python 3 Message-ID: <922A65E38EBD2F43B00E145646E2A3F401202718@cvcv0xi04.na.corning.com> Hello, I am a beginner and i installed python 3 in my Home directory. i want to test that the installation was done properly. is their a test suite to see the installation was good? Could anyone please help me with the problem? Also could i have both gcc and icc as compilers in python 3? if yes how do i use them in python3? Thanks, Vani -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dgriff1 at gmail.com Tue Jan 20 21:06:13 2009 From: dgriff1 at gmail.com (Daniel Griffin) Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2009 14:06:13 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] tests for Python 3 In-Reply-To: <922A65E38EBD2F43B00E145646E2A3F401202718@cvcv0xi04.na.corning.com> References: <922A65E38EBD2F43B00E145646E2A3F401202718@cvcv0xi04.na.corning.com> Message-ID: <3db160680901201206u5b9fa9f6i8883f933a0deb85c@mail.gmail.com> Thats a pretty open question, if its installed and in your path you should be able to start the python interpreter by typing python. About gcc and icc, are you trying to use C modules? Dan On Tue, Jan 20, 2009 at 9:58 AM, Gogineni, Sravani wrote: > Hello, > > > > I am a beginner and i installed python 3 in my Home directory. i want to > test that the installation was done properly. is their a test suite to see > the installation was good? Could anyone please help me with the problem? > Also could i have both gcc and icc as compilers in python 3? > > if yes how do i use them in python3? > > > > Thanks, > > Vani > > > > _______________________________________________ > Chicago mailing list > Chicago at python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kumar.mcmillan at gmail.com Tue Jan 20 21:08:18 2009 From: kumar.mcmillan at gmail.com (Kumar McMillan) Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2009 14:08:18 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] tests for Python 3 In-Reply-To: <922A65E38EBD2F43B00E145646E2A3F401202718@cvcv0xi04.na.corning.com> References: <922A65E38EBD2F43B00E145646E2A3F401202718@cvcv0xi04.na.corning.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Jan 20, 2009 at 9:58 AM, Gogineni, Sravani wrote: > Hello, > > > > I am a beginner and i installed python 3 in my Home directory. i want to > test that the installation was done properly. is their a test suite to see > the installation was good? Could anyone please help me with the problem? yes, just type $ make test in the source directory that you built Python from > Also could i have both gcc and icc as compilers in python 3? I'm not sure what you mean by "as compilers." If you are asking if you can use icc to compile Python 3 then I don't see why not, since icc is supposedly compatible with gnu tools. > > if yes how do i use them in python3? > > > > Thanks, > > Vani > > > > _______________________________________________ > Chicago mailing list > Chicago at python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago > > From ianb at colorstudy.com Wed Jan 21 04:38:45 2009 From: ianb at colorstudy.com (Ian Bicking) Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2009 21:38:45 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] Graphing libraries In-Reply-To: <395145940.729241232404418228.JavaMail.root@mail-3.01.com> References: <1475223335.728681232404335681.JavaMail.root@mail-3.01.com> <395145940.729241232404418228.JavaMail.root@mail-3.01.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Jan 19, 2009 at 4:33 PM, Garrett Smith wrote: > ----- "James Snyder" wrote: > > If you're looking for some user interaction on the client side as well, > without the ugliness of doing it in Flash > > I'll bite. > > So, I have a Flash disabler on Firefox (I recommend it) to avoid the > obvious problems with ads. I do though appreciate the fact I can watch > decent quality streaming video. The experience is 1000% better than running > Java in the browser and, all in all, really not bad at all. > Off topic, but I use Ad Blocker, which gets rid of the annoying Flash ads mostly. Enough so that I don't even know if they are annoying, because I haven't been seeing them for a long time. -- Ian Bicking | http://blog.ianbicking.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mjmccune at gmail.com Wed Jan 21 14:59:25 2009 From: mjmccune at gmail.com (Michael McCune) Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2009 07:59:25 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] Chicago Digest, Vol 41, Issue 38 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <49772A3D.10702@gmail.com> > Message: 4 > Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2009 21:38:45 -0600 > From: Ian Bicking > Subject: Re: [Chicago] Graphing libraries > To: The Chicago Python Users Group > Message-ID: > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > On Mon, Jan 19, 2009 at 4:33 PM, Garrett Smith wrote: > > >> ----- "James Snyder" wrote: >> >>> If you're looking for some user interaction on the client side as well, >>> >> without the ugliness of doing it in Flash >> >> I'll bite. >> >> So, I have a Flash disabler on Firefox (I recommend it) to avoid the >> obvious problems with ads. I do though appreciate the fact I can watch >> decent quality streaming video. The experience is 1000% better than running >> Java in the browser and, all in all, really not bad at all. >> >> > > Off topic, but I use Ad Blocker, which gets rid of the annoying Flash ads > mostly. Enough so that I don't even know if they are annoying, because I > haven't been seeing them for a long time. > > > You also might want to try Flash Block plugin for Firefox. It blocks Flash content. If you want to see the Flash, just click on it. From shekay at pobox.com Wed Jan 21 16:26:26 2009 From: shekay at pobox.com (sheila miguez) Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2009 09:26:26 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] Graphing libraries In-Reply-To: References: <1475223335.728681232404335681.JavaMail.root@mail-3.01.com> <395145940.729241232404418228.JavaMail.root@mail-3.01.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Jan 20, 2009 at 9:38 PM, Ian Bicking wrote: > Off topic, but I use Ad Blocker, which gets rid of the annoying Flash ads > mostly. Enough so that I don't even know if they are annoying, because I > haven't been seeing them for a long time. http://flashblock.mozdev.org/ Blocks flash from loading and inserts a placeholder to allow the user to choose to play. Also allows the user to whitelist sites. -- sheila From shekay at pobox.com Wed Jan 21 17:31:11 2009 From: shekay at pobox.com (sheila miguez) Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2009 10:31:11 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] Fwd: TP brainstorming/design/hacker jam In-Reply-To: <4976D09D.9020501@umich.edu> References: <4976D09D.9020501@umich.edu> Message-ID: Carl and I are driving to Ann Arbor for this. Would anyone like to carpool with us? See below for the 'maybe we can get some external "speakers"? (e.g. there could be somebody giving an intro of PyS60)' bullet point, and if anyone has already done some python on Android I'm sure they'd be excited to hear about it. (why I'm going: I've been chatting with them to volunteer programming assistance) ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Jakob Hilden Date: Wed, Jan 21, 2009 at 1:37 AM Subject: TP brainstorming/design/hacker jam To: talkingpoints at ctools.umich.edu Hi, according to Rayoung's scheduling efforts a good time for this event would be next week Wednesday, January 28 between 1 and 6pm. If you have any objections, speak up now! By then I hope we will hopefully: * have done our first steps with Python for Symbian * have conducted the first interviews * looked at a bunch of other systems * an EECS 498 Android team * developed a lot of questions for each other What we will do is still in flux, but this is some stuff I had in mind: * clarify questions to the other groups * streamline organizational things * brainstorm ideas * share knowledge & ideas * get to know EVERYBODY involved with Talking-Points * maybe we can get some external "speakers"? (e.g. there could be somebody giving an intro of PyS60) * as I said people will be free to come and go whenever they want/need * invite the blind community * invite other interested fellow students * be creative * have fun So please start spreading the word, details will follow. And please let me know your ideas about what you would like to do, eat, drink, ... --Jakob PS: the TP Google calendar seems to have been deleted by accident. I have recreated it and shared it with you again. If you can't see it or have any problems, let me know. Please add any TP relevant event including meetings and interviews to that calendar, so team members know what's going on. ________________________________ This automatic notification message was sent by CTools (https://ctools.umich.edu/portal) from the Talking-Points site. You can modify how you receive notifications at My Workspace > Preferences. -- sheila From chris.mcavoy at gmail.com Wed Jan 21 18:42:38 2009 From: chris.mcavoy at gmail.com (Chris McAvoy) Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2009 11:42:38 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] Fwd: TP brainstorming/design/hacker jam In-Reply-To: References: <4976D09D.9020501@umich.edu> Message-ID: <3096c19d0901210942u413faf76rfbf59130c8ecfc72@mail.gmail.com> What is it? What is this "talking points?" On Wed, Jan 21, 2009 at 10:31 AM, sheila miguez wrote: > Carl and I are driving to Ann Arbor for this. Would anyone like to > carpool with us? > > See below for the 'maybe we can get some external "speakers"? (e.g. > there could be > somebody giving an intro of PyS60)' bullet point, and if anyone has > already done some python on Android I'm sure they'd be excited to hear > about it. > > (why I'm going: I've been chatting with them to volunteer programming > assistance) > > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > From: Jakob Hilden > Date: Wed, Jan 21, 2009 at 1:37 AM > Subject: TP brainstorming/design/hacker jam > To: talkingpoints at ctools.umich.edu > > > Hi, > > according to Rayoung's scheduling efforts a good time for this event > would be next week Wednesday, January 28 between 1 and 6pm. If you have > any objections, speak up now! > > By then I hope we will hopefully: > * have done our first steps with Python for Symbian > * have conducted the first interviews > * looked at a bunch of other systems > * an EECS 498 Android team > * developed a lot of questions for each other > > > What we will do is still in flux, but this is some stuff I had in mind: > * clarify questions to the other groups > * streamline organizational things > * brainstorm ideas > * share knowledge & ideas > * get to know EVERYBODY involved with Talking-Points > * maybe we can get some external "speakers"? (e.g. there could be > somebody giving an intro of PyS60) > * as I said people will be free to come and go whenever they want/need > * invite the blind community > * invite other interested fellow students > * be creative > * have fun > > > So please start spreading the word, details will follow. And please let > me know your ideas about what you would like to do, eat, drink, ... > > --Jakob > > > PS: the TP Google calendar seems to have been deleted by accident. I > have recreated it and shared it with you again. If you can't see it or > have any problems, let me know. Please add any TP relevant event > including meetings and interviews to that calendar, so team members know > what's going on. > ________________________________ > This automatic notification message was sent by CTools > (https://ctools.umich.edu/portal) from the Talking-Points site. > You can modify how you receive notifications at My Workspace > Preferences. > > > > -- > sheila > _______________________________________________ > Chicago mailing list > Chicago at python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago > From shekay at pobox.com Wed Jan 21 19:08:47 2009 From: shekay at pobox.com (sheila miguez) Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2009 12:08:47 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] Fwd: TP brainstorming/design/hacker jam In-Reply-To: <3096c19d0901210942u413faf76rfbf59130c8ecfc72@mail.gmail.com> References: <4976D09D.9020501@umich.edu> <3096c19d0901210942u413faf76rfbf59130c8ecfc72@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Talking Points is a project a group at umich in Ann Arbor is working on. They're prototyping and studying devices to provide POI (points of interest) information for blind users. Their earlier prototype was a java app, and used bluetooth discovery to get MACs to lookup some data from a webservice. I saw an article about them in ACM TechNews, and after following links I saw that they were open to volunteers. and that they were making the code (at least the prototype?) visible to the world. http://www.ns.umich.edu/htdocs/releases/story.php?id=6737 http://talking-points.org/ Their blog is stale, but it will likely start up again soon now that they have an influx of students for independent study research. They are going with pyS60 on the nokia platform. yay. hence I thought some of you (perhaps Feihong) might be interested in going, and at least mentoring for a day. (I tend to collect speculatively related bookmarks or refs at http://delicious.com/shekay/talkingpoints ) rambling... I'm interested in accessibility and technology (actually, with more of a bent towards assisting with cognitive problems, but this was interesting in that I had been thinking of wayfinding and memory aids for POI for people with memory and/or concentration/attentional problems (age related or otherwise)). but, being as I have no grad experience in this field, I am doubtful that I'd ever find gainful employment as a research programmer*, so open source it is. (though do any of you remember pycon 2007 lightning talk by the guys in Coloroda who were designing apps, like an email app, for users with cognitive disabilities? that ws a commercial thing, iirc, not research, but whatever) * but if anyone is hiring in anything like this let me know. I have two BS degrees, in CS, and in Psychology. I tended towards biopsychology and cognitive stuff, avoided clinical and fluffy stuff, and hung out and assisted in a memory & cognition lab at school doing experiments on people. (didn't see anything like this last time I was thinking of finding a new job, and I don't feel like bothering to find a new job unless it's a complete paradigm shift from what I'm doing right now, barring other factors.) ** I tend to collect completely speculative bookmarks on this http://delicious.com/shekay/cognitive+to.speculate or thereabouts. I tend to save cognitive+prostheses &c. On Wed, Jan 21, 2009 at 11:42 AM, Chris McAvoy wrote: > What is it? What is this "talking points?" > > On Wed, Jan 21, 2009 at 10:31 AM, sheila miguez wrote: >> Carl and I are driving to Ann Arbor for this. Would anyone like to >> carpool with us? >> >> See below for the 'maybe we can get some external "speakers"? (e.g. >> there could be >> somebody giving an intro of PyS60)' bullet point, and if anyone has >> already done some python on Android I'm sure they'd be excited to hear >> about it. >> >> (why I'm going: I've been chatting with them to volunteer programming >> assistance) >> >> >> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- >> From: Jakob Hilden >> Date: Wed, Jan 21, 2009 at 1:37 AM >> Subject: TP brainstorming/design/hacker jam >> To: talkingpoints at ctools.umich.edu >> >> >> Hi, >> >> according to Rayoung's scheduling efforts a good time for this event >> would be next week Wednesday, January 28 between 1 and 6pm. If you have >> any objections, speak up now! >> >> By then I hope we will hopefully: >> * have done our first steps with Python for Symbian >> * have conducted the first interviews >> * looked at a bunch of other systems >> * an EECS 498 Android team >> * developed a lot of questions for each other >> >> >> What we will do is still in flux, but this is some stuff I had in mind: >> * clarify questions to the other groups >> * streamline organizational things >> * brainstorm ideas >> * share knowledge & ideas >> * get to know EVERYBODY involved with Talking-Points >> * maybe we can get some external "speakers"? (e.g. there could be >> somebody giving an intro of PyS60) >> * as I said people will be free to come and go whenever they want/need >> * invite the blind community >> * invite other interested fellow students >> * be creative >> * have fun >> >> >> So please start spreading the word, details will follow. And please let >> me know your ideas about what you would like to do, eat, drink, ... >> >> --Jakob >> >> >> PS: the TP Google calendar seems to have been deleted by accident. I >> have recreated it and shared it with you again. If you can't see it or >> have any problems, let me know. Please add any TP relevant event >> including meetings and interviews to that calendar, so team members know >> what's going on. >> ________________________________ >> This automatic notification message was sent by CTools >> (https://ctools.umich.edu/portal) from the Talking-Points site. >> You can modify how you receive notifications at My Workspace > Preferences. >> >> >> >> -- >> sheila >> _______________________________________________ >> Chicago mailing list >> Chicago at python.org >> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago >> > _______________________________________________ > Chicago mailing list > Chicago at python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago > -- sheila From shekay at pobox.com Wed Jan 21 19:12:17 2009 From: shekay at pobox.com (sheila miguez) Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2009 12:12:17 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] Fwd: TP brainstorming/design/hacker jam In-Reply-To: <3096c19d0901210942u413faf76rfbf59130c8ecfc72@mail.gmail.com> References: <4976D09D.9020501@umich.edu> <3096c19d0901210942u413faf76rfbf59130c8ecfc72@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Jan 21, 2009 at 11:42 AM, Chris McAvoy wrote: > What is it? What is this "talking points?" > So, after rambling a lot, I hope I made a clear case for its chipy relevance being that they are planning on programming a system in python and I'm driving from Chicago to get there. And we had a meeting once about pys60. -- sheila From hsu.feihong at yahoo.com Thu Jan 22 18:06:29 2009 From: hsu.feihong at yahoo.com (Feihong Hsu) Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2009 09:06:29 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Chicago] Fwd: TP brainstorming/design/hacker jam In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <944539.82627.qm@web34801.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Sounds interesting but unfortunately I can't make it. And beyond the very basic stuff I described in my talk, I haven't gotten much farther in developing PyS60 applications. I've come to realize that while PyS60 has amazing integration with the S60 platform, the S60 platform isn't a very good smartphone platform. However, I think S60 devices have all the features that are needed for this research project, along with probably the most friendly development experience of any mobile device currently on the market. --- On Wed, 1/21/09, sheila miguez wrote: From: sheila miguez Subject: [Chicago] Fwd: TP brainstorming/design/hacker jam To: "The Chicago Python Users Group" Date: Wednesday, January 21, 2009, 10:31 AM Carl and I are driving to Ann Arbor for this. Would anyone like to carpool with us? See below for the 'maybe we can get some external "speakers"? (e.g. there could be somebody giving an intro of PyS60)' bullet point, and if anyone has already done some python on Android I'm sure they'd be excited to hear about it. (why I'm going: I've been chatting with them to volunteer programming assistance) ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Jakob Hilden Date: Wed, Jan 21, 2009 at 1:37 AM Subject: TP brainstorming/design/hacker jam To: talkingpoints at ctools.umich.edu Hi, according to Rayoung's scheduling efforts a good time for this event would be next week Wednesday, January 28 between 1 and 6pm. If you have any objections, speak up now! By then I hope we will hopefully: * have done our first steps with Python for Symbian * have conducted the first interviews * looked at a bunch of other systems * an EECS 498 Android team * developed a lot of questions for each other What we will do is still in flux, but this is some stuff I had in mind: * clarify questions to the other groups * streamline organizational things * brainstorm ideas * share knowledge & ideas * get to know EVERYBODY involved with Talking-Points * maybe we can get some external "speakers"? (e.g. there could be somebody giving an intro of PyS60) * as I said people will be free to come and go whenever they want/need * invite the blind community * invite other interested fellow students * be creative * have fun So please start spreading the word, details will follow. And please let me know your ideas about what you would like to do, eat, drink, ... --Jakob PS: the TP Google calendar seems to have been deleted by accident. I have recreated it and shared it with you again. If you can't see it or have any problems, let me know. Please add any TP relevant event including meetings and interviews to that calendar, so team members know what's going on. ________________________________ This automatic notification message was sent by CTools (https://ctools.umich.edu/portal) from the Talking-Points site. You can modify how you receive notifications at My Workspace > Preferences. -- sheila _______________________________________________ Chicago mailing list Chicago at python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From fasteliteprogrammer at yahoo.com Mon Jan 26 17:51:08 2009 From: fasteliteprogrammer at yahoo.com (Craig) Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2009 08:51:08 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Chicago] eclipse gtk Message-ID: <63762.80155.qm@web36506.mail.mud.yahoo.com> How do i get python gtk to work with eclipse? From kirby.urner at gmail.com Mon Jan 26 18:12:55 2009 From: kirby.urner at gmail.com (kirby urner) Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2009 09:12:55 -0800 Subject: [Chicago] greetings from Oregon (Pycon promo) Message-ID: Greetings Chicago UG, signing in as a lurker, though might be lured into chit chat. I'm active with Portland's PPUG (formerly PORPIG) and have designs to present at Pycon in March in the city of my birth (mom & dad at University of). My 'Python for Teachers' is about what we're doing in Portland to make computer languages more prevalent within K-16, not just as a topic for computer science but for the liberal arts more generally (more like R0ml). My co-teacher is Steve Holden of PSF notoriety, plus I might have Patrick Barton of Synovate.com as a TA (he was there last year, when I delivered Part 1 **). Anyway, just wanted to drop in virtually and say hi, maybe I'll be lucky enough to meet some of you in person in a few weeks. Kirby ** Part 1, video track by 4D Studios with special thanks to sociality.tv: http://showmedo.com/videos/video?name=1010050&fromSeriesID=101 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hbeHdg8mtdc (also on YouTube) ** Part 2, slides I'm working on for March promoting Oregon wine & cheese etc., along with great Python: http://www.flickr.com/photos/17157315 at N00/sets/72157612943105800/ (go by train) (there's also a more traditional OpenOffice presentation -- I have 3 hrs remember) From brian.curtin at gmail.com Mon Jan 26 18:54:10 2009 From: brian.curtin at gmail.com (curtin@acm.org) Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2009 11:54:10 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] eclipse gtk In-Reply-To: <63762.80155.qm@web36506.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <63762.80155.qm@web36506.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: What have you attempted? On Mon, Jan 26, 2009 at 10:51 AM, Craig wrote: > How do i get python gtk to work with eclipse? > > > > _______________________________________________ > Chicago mailing list > Chicago at python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mtemkin at speakeasy.net Mon Jan 26 19:05:05 2009 From: mtemkin at speakeasy.net (Marc Temkin) Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2009 12:05:05 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] ACM 2/11 Meeting on Successful, custom development in Chicago Message-ID: Hi Chipy , I think that this next ACM meeting featuring a speaker talking about his successful, custom development company will be highly relevant to th ose Pythonistas involved in independent development . Please post this to the Chicago Digest. Thanks, Marc Temkin Next Meeting: Wednesday, February 11, 2009 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- No Myth: Keeping software fun, profitable, professional (and local!) Presented by: Doug Wilson of Breakthrough Technologies 5:30 PM Buffet and Social Hour 6:30 PM Presentation Hosted by: Roosevelt University, downtown Chicago 430 S. Michigan Ave, Chicago, IL 60605 (nearest intersection: Congress and Michigan) Room 232 Cost (Includes Dinner & Program): Members: $10, Non-members: $12, Students with ID: $5 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- Custom software is dead. Heck, packaged software is dead. Onshore development is in decline. Boutique software development is a dead business model. The economy is stifling investment in technology. If all of these things are true, then why is a local software development shop, which ruthlessly refuses to offshore, and caters to custom product development, predicting growth this year? Doug Wilson, managing partner of Evanston-based Breakthrough Technologies, will give a rebuttal to these "truths" accepted in our industry and media. He'll discuss his strategies of taking on the technical and business challenges ahead of us and how to take common-sense business approaches to thrive and profit in today's environment. Doug will explain his technology-agnostic approach that capitalizes on competency, continuing staff development and the real trends driving innovation and productivity. The Breakthrough approach may be the best way to move system developers from endangered species to indispensable software partners within the next ten years. About the Speaker Doug Wilson started Breakthrough Technologies in 1998. Doug has been lead design engineer for several healthcare systems including a billion-dollar high-volume blood analysis instrument. At Breakthrough, Doug is chief technical officer and is active through all aspects of the software development lifecycle. His 20-member team works on software product development for customers in medicine, publishing, research and manufacturing. Clients include Abbott Labs, Macrovision, Argonne National Laboratory and Houghton-Mifflin. Right-sized consulting methods and open source software let Breakthrough provide specialized services at a competitive cost to small and medium businesses. Doug has a BS in Computer Engineering from the University of Michigan. He is active with the MIT Enterprise Forum of Chicago, the Illinois Technology Association and the Little City Foundation. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- Reservations: To make a reservation, use this form: http://spreadsheets.google.com/viewform?key=p-UVle2DaAnmIFyO9XYJSdQ or send an e-mail to greg at neumarke.net or call Greg at 773-907-3308 (work) ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- Marc Temkin 7410 N. Talman Chicago IL 60645-1412 773-274-6544 Email:mtemkin at speakeasy.net -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From fasteliteprogrammer at yahoo.com Mon Jan 26 19:05:55 2009 From: fasteliteprogrammer at yahoo.com (Craig) Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2009 10:05:55 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Chicago] eclipse gtk Message-ID: <398540.952.qm@web36508.mail.mud.yahoo.com> I found the web link to update it and then i went to my update button on eclipse.I just abit new to eclipse. --- On Mon, 1/26/09, curtin at acm.org wrote: From: curtin at acm.org Subject: Re: [Chicago] eclipse gtk To: "The Chicago Python Users Group" Date: Monday, January 26, 2009, 11:54 AM What have you attempted? On Mon, Jan 26, 2009 at 10:51 AM, Craig wrote: How do i get python gtk to work with eclipse? _______________________________________________ Chicago mailing list Chicago at python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ Chicago mailing list Chicago at python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hundredpercentjuice at gmail.com Mon Jan 26 19:12:48 2009 From: hundredpercentjuice at gmail.com (JS Irick) Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2009 12:12:48 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] eclipse gtk In-Reply-To: <398540.952.qm@web36508.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <398540.952.qm@web36508.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <19c3441a0901261012l7d606511n54ab574a2e59cef7@mail.gmail.com> On Mon, Jan 26, 2009 at 12:05 PM, Craig wrote: > I found the web link to update it and then i went to my update button on > eclipse.I just abit new to eclipse. Help us help you.... What documentation have you read? What tutorial/google results have you looked at? Did they work or not; if not, what errors occurred? What OS are you using? Can you do a "hello world" type gtk example w/o using eclipse? What errors are you getting? Most importantly, are the gtk libraries in the python path referenced by eclipse? From fasteliteprogrammer at yahoo.com Mon Jan 26 19:31:49 2009 From: fasteliteprogrammer at yahoo.com (Craig) Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2009 10:31:49 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Chicago] eclipse gtk Message-ID: <206581.38837.qm@web36504.mail.mud.yahoo.com> i useing fedora 10 and i went into my eclipse and went to help then to help contents that all i did. --- On Mon, 1/26/09, JS Irick wrote: From: JS Irick Subject: Re: [Chicago] eclipse gtk To: "The Chicago Python Users Group" Cc: curtin at acm.org Date: Monday, January 26, 2009, 12:12 PM On Mon, Jan 26, 2009 at 12:05 PM, Craig wrote: > I found the web link to update it and then i went to my update button on > eclipse.I just abit new to eclipse. Help us help you.... What documentation have you read? What tutorial/google results have you looked at?? Did they work or not; if not, what errors occurred? What OS are you using? Can you do a "hello world" type gtk example w/o using eclipse? What errors are you getting? Most importantly, are the gtk libraries in the python path referenced by eclipse? _______________________________________________ Chicago mailing list Chicago at python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kumar.mcmillan at gmail.com Mon Jan 26 20:12:07 2009 From: kumar.mcmillan at gmail.com (Kumar McMillan) Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2009 13:12:07 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] greetings from Oregon (Pycon promo) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Kirby. Thanks for the intro. Keep an eye on the list; we'll probably try to organize some kind of ad-hoc meeting during PyCon for out-of-towners to attend. If nothing else, there is always beer to drink. Who will drink the beer? ChiPy will step up to the challenge. Kumar On Mon, Jan 26, 2009 at 11:12 AM, kirby urner wrote: > Greetings Chicago UG, signing in as a lurker, though might be lured > into chit chat. > > I'm active with Portland's PPUG (formerly PORPIG) and have designs to > present at Pycon in March in the city of my birth (mom & dad at > University of). > > My 'Python for Teachers' is about what we're doing in Portland to make > computer languages more prevalent within K-16, not just as a topic for > computer science but for the liberal arts more generally (more like > R0ml). > > My co-teacher is Steve Holden of PSF notoriety, plus I might have > Patrick Barton of Synovate.com as a TA (he was there last year, when I > delivered Part 1 **). > > Anyway, just wanted to drop in virtually and say hi, maybe I'll be > lucky enough to meet some of you in person in a few weeks. > > Kirby > > ** Part 1, video track by 4D Studios with special thanks to sociality.tv: > http://showmedo.com/videos/video?name=1010050&fromSeriesID=101 > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hbeHdg8mtdc (also on YouTube) > > ** Part 2, slides I'm working on for March promoting Oregon wine & > cheese etc., along with great Python: > http://www.flickr.com/photos/17157315 at N00/sets/72157612943105800/ (go by train) > (there's also a more traditional OpenOffice presentation -- I have 3 > hrs remember) > _______________________________________________ > Chicago mailing list > Chicago at python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago > From chris.mcavoy at gmail.com Mon Jan 26 23:40:02 2009 From: chris.mcavoy at gmail.com (Chris McAvoy) Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2009 16:40:02 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] Python Brat Night? Message-ID: <3096c19d0901261440m7aab425ds2a85fe96c70a61f@mail.gmail.com> Anyone up for another social? That German place on Irving Park was awesome last time. How about this Wednesday? Chris From cosmin at offbytwo.com Mon Jan 26 23:45:15 2009 From: cosmin at offbytwo.com (Cosmin Stejerean) Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2009 16:45:15 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] Python Brat Night? In-Reply-To: <3096c19d0901261440m7aab425ds2a85fe96c70a61f@mail.gmail.com> References: <3096c19d0901261440m7aab425ds2a85fe96c70a61f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <383bbcce0901261445g5c88edbcv803c3630f602295e@mail.gmail.com> On Mon, Jan 26, 2009 at 4:40 PM, Chris McAvoy wrote: > Anyone up for another social? That German place on Irving Park was > awesome last time. How about this Wednesday? > > Chris > _______________________________________________ > Chicago mailing list > Chicago at python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago > We've been slacking since the new year started. I'm in for this Wed. -- Cosmin Stejerean http://offbytwo.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jcroneme at thoughtworks.com Tue Jan 27 00:01:29 2009 From: jcroneme at thoughtworks.com (Josh Cronemeyer) Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2009 17:01:29 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] Python Brat Night? In-Reply-To: <383bbcce0901261445g5c88edbcv803c3630f602295e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: I'm in, my doctor tells me that my fried potato pancake count is dangerously low. PEACE! Josh Cronemeyer Cosmin Stejerean Sent by: chicago-bounces+jcroneme=thoughtworks.com at python.org 01/26/09 04:45 PM Please respond to The Chicago Python Users Group To The Chicago Python Users Group cc Subject Re: [Chicago] Python Brat Night? On Mon, Jan 26, 2009 at 4:40 PM, Chris McAvoy wrote: Anyone up for another social? That German place on Irving Park was awesome last time. How about this Wednesday? Chris _______________________________________________ Chicago mailing list Chicago at python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago We've been slacking since the new year started. I'm in for this Wed. -- Cosmin Stejerean http://offbytwo.com _______________________________________________ Chicago mailing list Chicago at python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kumar.mcmillan at gmail.com Tue Jan 27 03:18:23 2009 From: kumar.mcmillan at gmail.com (Kumar McMillan) Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2009 20:18:23 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] Snakebitten Message-ID: Hey, does anyone know more about this? http://www.snakebite.org/ http://www.snakebite.org/network It sounds pretty damn cool to me. I emailed Trent Nelson who was listed as a contact for the Chicago data center to see if he or someone else might be able to give a presentation at ChiPy. Kumar From kumar.mcmillan at gmail.com Tue Jan 27 03:20:24 2009 From: kumar.mcmillan at gmail.com (Kumar McMillan) Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2009 20:20:24 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] Python Brat Night? In-Reply-To: References: <383bbcce0901261445g5c88edbcv803c3630f602295e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Damn, I love Resi's :) but I might have to skip this one. I can do next Wednesday. On Mon, Jan 26, 2009 at 5:01 PM, Josh Cronemeyer wrote: > > I'm in, my doctor tells me that my fried potato pancake count is dangerously > low. > > PEACE! > Josh Cronemeyer > > > Cosmin Stejerean > Sent by: chicago-bounces+jcroneme=thoughtworks.com at python.org > > 01/26/09 04:45 PM > > Please respond to > The Chicago Python Users Group > To > The Chicago Python Users Group > cc > Subject > Re: [Chicago] Python Brat Night? > > > > > On Mon, Jan 26, 2009 at 4:40 PM, Chris McAvoy > wrote: > Anyone up for another social? That German place on Irving Park was > awesome last time. How about this Wednesday? > > Chris > _______________________________________________ > Chicago mailing list > Chicago at python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago > > We've been slacking since the new year started. I'm in for this Wed. > > -- > Cosmin Stejerean > http://offbytwo.com > _______________________________________________ > Chicago mailing list > Chicago at python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago > > > _______________________________________________ > Chicago mailing list > Chicago at python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago > > From jcroneme at thoughtworks.com Tue Jan 27 04:22:53 2009 From: jcroneme at thoughtworks.com (Josh Cronemeyer) Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2009 21:22:53 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] Python Brat Night? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I'm in, my doctor will STILL be telling me that my fried potato pancake count is dangerously low. PEACE! Josh Cronemeyer Kumar McMillan Sent by: chicago-bounces+jcroneme=thoughtworks.com at python.org 01/26/09 08:20 PM Please respond to The Chicago Python Users Group To The Chicago Python Users Group cc Subject Re: [Chicago] Python Brat Night? Damn, I love Resi's :) but I might have to skip this one. I can do next Wednesday. On Mon, Jan 26, 2009 at 5:01 PM, Josh Cronemeyer wrote: > > I'm in, my doctor tells me that my fried potato pancake count is dangerously > low. > > PEACE! > Josh Cronemeyer > > > Cosmin Stejerean > Sent by: chicago-bounces+jcroneme=thoughtworks.com at python.org > > 01/26/09 04:45 PM > > Please respond to > The Chicago Python Users Group > To > The Chicago Python Users Group > cc > Subject > Re: [Chicago] Python Brat Night? > > > > > On Mon, Jan 26, 2009 at 4:40 PM, Chris McAvoy > wrote: > Anyone up for another social? That German place on Irving Park was > awesome last time. How about this Wednesday? > > Chris > _______________________________________________ > Chicago mailing list > Chicago at python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago > > We've been slacking since the new year started. I'm in for this Wed. > > -- > Cosmin Stejerean > http://offbytwo.com > _______________________________________________ > Chicago mailing list > Chicago at python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago > > > _______________________________________________ > Chicago mailing list > Chicago at python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago > > _______________________________________________ Chicago mailing list Chicago at python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cosmin at offbytwo.com Tue Jan 27 05:10:55 2009 From: cosmin at offbytwo.com (Cosmin Stejerean) Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2009 22:10:55 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] Python Brat Night? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <383bbcce0901262010u6b1bed98v264fdf1359794478@mail.gmail.com> I'm in for next Wed as well. On Mon, Jan 26, 2009 at 9:22 PM, Josh Cronemeyer wrote: > > I'm in, my doctor will STILL be telling me that my fried potato pancake > count is dangerously low. > > PEACE! > Josh Cronemeyer > > > *Kumar McMillan * > Sent by: chicago-bounces+jcroneme=thoughtworks.com at python.org > > 01/26/09 08:20 PM > Please respond to > The Chicago Python Users Group > > To > The Chicago Python Users Group cc > Subject > Re: [Chicago] Python Brat Night? > > > > > Damn, I love Resi's :) but I might have to skip this one. I can do > next Wednesday. > > On Mon, Jan 26, 2009 at 5:01 PM, Josh Cronemeyer > wrote: > > > > I'm in, my doctor tells me that my fried potato pancake count is > dangerously > > low. > > > > PEACE! > > Josh Cronemeyer > > > > > > Cosmin Stejerean > > Sent by: chicago-bounces+jcroneme=thoughtworks.com at python.org > > > > 01/26/09 04:45 PM > > > > Please respond to > > The Chicago Python Users Group > > To > > The Chicago Python Users Group > > cc > > Subject > > Re: [Chicago] Python Brat Night? > > > > > > > > > > On Mon, Jan 26, 2009 at 4:40 PM, Chris McAvoy > > wrote: > > Anyone up for another social? That German place on Irving Park was > > awesome last time. How about this Wednesday? > > > > Chris > > _______________________________________________ > > Chicago mailing list > > Chicago at python.org > > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago > > > > We've been slacking since the new year started. I'm in for this Wed. > > > > -- > > Cosmin Stejerean > > http://offbytwo.com > > _______________________________________________ > > Chicago mailing list > > Chicago at python.org > > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Chicago mailing list > > Chicago at python.org > > > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Chicago mailing list > Chicago at python.org > > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago > > > _______________________________________________ > Chicago mailing list > Chicago at python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago > > -- Cosmin Stejerean http://offbytwo.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tim.saylor at gmail.com Tue Jan 27 05:33:32 2009 From: tim.saylor at gmail.com (Tim Saylor) Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2009 22:33:32 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] Python Brat Night? In-Reply-To: <383bbcce0901262010u6b1bed98v264fdf1359794478@mail.gmail.com> References: <383bbcce0901262010u6b1bed98v264fdf1359794478@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <9fb45b0b0901262033v7ddf1230pc8bdc27121d7394f@mail.gmail.com> I may be in, it depends how things shake out tomorrow. On Mon, Jan 26, 2009 at 10:10 PM, Cosmin Stejerean wrote: > I'm in for next Wed as well. > > On Mon, Jan 26, 2009 at 9:22 PM, Josh Cronemeyer > wrote: >> >> I'm in, my doctor will STILL be telling me that my fried potato pancake >> count is dangerously low. >> >> PEACE! >> Josh Cronemeyer >> >> >> Kumar McMillan >> Sent by: chicago-bounces+jcroneme=thoughtworks.com at python.org >> >> 01/26/09 08:20 PM >> >> Please respond to >> The Chicago Python Users Group >> To >> The Chicago Python Users Group >> cc >> Subject >> Re: [Chicago] Python Brat Night? >> >> >> >> >> Damn, I love Resi's :) but I might have to skip this one. I can do >> next Wednesday. >> >> On Mon, Jan 26, 2009 at 5:01 PM, Josh Cronemeyer >> wrote: >> > >> > I'm in, my doctor tells me that my fried potato pancake count is >> > dangerously >> > low. >> > >> > PEACE! >> > Josh Cronemeyer >> > >> > >> > Cosmin Stejerean >> > Sent by: chicago-bounces+jcroneme=thoughtworks.com at python.org >> > >> > 01/26/09 04:45 PM >> > >> > Please respond to >> > The Chicago Python Users Group >> > To >> > The Chicago Python Users Group >> > cc >> > Subject >> > Re: [Chicago] Python Brat Night? >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > On Mon, Jan 26, 2009 at 4:40 PM, Chris McAvoy >> > wrote: >> > Anyone up for another social? That German place on Irving Park was >> > awesome last time. How about this Wednesday? >> > >> > Chris >> > _______________________________________________ >> > Chicago mailing list >> > Chicago at python.org >> > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago >> > >> > We've been slacking since the new year started. I'm in for this Wed. >> > >> > -- >> > Cosmin Stejerean >> > http://offbytwo.com >> > _______________________________________________ >> > Chicago mailing list >> > Chicago at python.org >> > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago >> > >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > Chicago mailing list >> > Chicago at python.org >> > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ >> Chicago mailing list >> Chicago at python.org >> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Chicago mailing list >> Chicago at python.org >> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago >> > > > > -- > Cosmin Stejerean > http://offbytwo.com > > > _______________________________________________ > Chicago mailing list > Chicago at python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago > > From kumar.mcmillan at gmail.com Tue Jan 27 06:24:38 2009 From: kumar.mcmillan at gmail.com (Kumar McMillan) Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2009 23:24:38 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] Snakebitten In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, Jan 26, 2009 at 8:18 PM, Kumar McMillan wrote: > Hey, does anyone know more about this? [answering my own question...] Here is the intro letter from Trent Nelson: http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-committers/2009-January/000331.html Titus Brown is also working on it. It's pretty much the pybots project on steroids and it sounds like they have a lot of backing to make it succeed. I.E. Microsoft has given tons of licenses for all Windows testing needs, etc. For those who don't know pybots -- http://code.google.com/p/pybots/ -- the concept is the same. If you run an active open source project (like Python, Django, etc) and it has a test suite, then you should be constantly running that test suite on *all* the hardware / OS configurations that your users will be using. That will give you immediate feedback when subtle bugs creep in during development. This snakebite thing opens up all the access problems that the pybots project had. In other words, who's going to login to the specific environment to diagnose a broken build? With snakebite, you are! > http://www.snakebite.org/ > http://www.snakebite.org/network > > It sounds pretty damn cool to me. > > I emailed Trent Nelson who was listed as a contact for the Chicago > data center to see if he or someone else might be able to give a > presentation at ChiPy. > > Kumar > From chris.mcavoy at gmail.com Tue Jan 27 15:52:31 2009 From: chris.mcavoy at gmail.com (Chris McAvoy) Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2009 08:52:31 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] Best Python Flickr API? Message-ID: <3096c19d0901270652yf215498vdad04aaba545977e@mail.gmail.com> The site lists three: http://www.flickr.com/services/api/ Anyone have an opinion on which is best? Chris From g at rrett.us.com Wed Jan 28 03:11:20 2009 From: g at rrett.us.com (Garrett Smith) Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2009 20:11:20 -0600 (CST) Subject: [Chicago] eclipse gtk In-Reply-To: <206581.38837.qm@web36504.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <231052850.3252661233108680375.JavaMail.root@mail-3.01.com> Please attach a screen shot of what you saw when you viewed help. (Best thread ever) ----- "Craig" wrote: > i useing fedora 10 and i went into my eclipse and went to help then to help contents that all i did. > > --- On Mon, 1/26/09, JS Irick wrote: > > From: JS Irick > Subject: Re: [Chicago] eclipse gtk > To: "The Chicago Python Users Group" > Cc: curtin at acm.org > Date: Monday, January 26, 2009, 12:12 PM > > > On Mon, Jan 26, 2009 at 12:05 PM, Craig < fasteliteprogrammer at yahoo.com > wrote: > > I found the web link to update it and then i went to my update button on > > eclipse.I just abit new to eclipse. > > Help us help you.... > > What documentation have you read? > > What tutorial/google results have you looked at? Did they work or > not; if not, what errors occurred? > > What OS are you using? > > Can you do a "hello world" type gtk example w/o using eclipse? > > What errors are you getting? > > Most importantly, are the gtk libraries in the python path referenced > by eclipse? > _______________________________________________ > Chicago mailing list > Chicago at python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago > > > _______________________________________________ Chicago mailing list Chicago at python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago From g at rrett.us.com Wed Jan 28 03:13:59 2009 From: g at rrett.us.com (Garrett Smith) Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2009 20:13:59 -0600 (CST) Subject: [Chicago] Python Brat Night? In-Reply-To: <3096c19d0901261440m7aab425ds2a85fe96c70a61f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1888944349.3253311233108839121.JavaMail.root@mail-3.01.com> ----- "Chris McAvoy" wrote: > Anyone up for another social? That German place on Irving Park was > awesome last time. How about this Wednesday? I can make it. But don't take it personally if I'm drunk before anyone else gets there. Garrett From tcp at mac.com Wed Jan 28 03:28:18 2009 From: tcp at mac.com (Ted Pollari) Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2009 18:28:18 -0800 Subject: [Chicago] PyCon 2009 Registration is Open Message-ID: <29FCF793-6E20-41B4-8ABC-FBA63EE0F717@mac.com> Just figured I'd pass it along.... Blog entry: http://pycon.blogspot.com/2009/01/pycon-2009-registration-is-open.html Registration Page: http://us.pycon.org/2009/registration/ From chris.mcavoy at gmail.com Wed Jan 28 14:45:21 2009 From: chris.mcavoy at gmail.com (Chris McAvoy) Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2009 07:45:21 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] Python Brat Night? In-Reply-To: <1888944349.3253311233108839121.JavaMail.root@mail-3.01.com> References: <3096c19d0901261440m7aab425ds2a85fe96c70a61f@mail.gmail.com> <1888944349.3253311233108839121.JavaMail.root@mail-3.01.com> Message-ID: <3096c19d0901280545w2cc3fac5x7a0b6a2373418a9e@mail.gmail.com> I'll be there around 7. Resi's Bierstube 2034 W Irving Park Rd Chicago, IL 60618 (773) 472-1749? (773) 929-7433? - Fax On Tue, Jan 27, 2009 at 8:13 PM, Garrett Smith wrote: > > ----- "Chris McAvoy" wrote: > >> Anyone up for another social? That German place on Irving Park was >> awesome last time. How about this Wednesday? > > I can make it. But don't take it personally if I'm drunk before anyone else gets there. > > Garrett > _______________________________________________ > Chicago mailing list > Chicago at python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago > From bray at sent.com Wed Jan 28 19:37:27 2009 From: bray at sent.com (Brian Ray) Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2009 12:37:27 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] Possible Venue, Sully's Message-ID: Through work connections, I know the owner of this bar: http://www.sullyspub.com/ It is located near North and Clyborn Red line stop. He said he has two party rooms that would fit us. They have a large selection of beer, of course. Those under drinking age will have to wear wrist bands. Are we interested? Your thoughts? Brian Ray From bray at sent.com Wed Jan 28 19:57:29 2009 From: bray at sent.com (Brian Ray) Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2009 12:57:29 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] Possible Venue, Sully's House Message-ID: <7578F0E7-A4EA-4E0C-B628-158F564F810F@sent.com> Through work connections, I know the owner of this bar: http://www.sullyshouse.com/ It is located near North and Clyborn Red line stop. He said he has two party rooms that would fit us. They have a large selection of beer, of course. Those under drinking age will have to wear wrist bands. Are we interested? Your thoughts? Brian Ray From bray at sent.com Wed Jan 28 19:58:49 2009 From: bray at sent.com (Brian Ray) Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2009 12:58:49 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] Possible Venue, Sully's House In-Reply-To: <7578F0E7-A4EA-4E0C-B628-158F564F810F@sent.com> References: <7578F0E7-A4EA-4E0C-B628-158F564F810F@sent.com> Message-ID: On Jan 28, 2009, at 12:57 PM, Brian Ray wrote: > > http://www.sullyshouse.com/ That first email had the wrong URL. This one is correct. Thanks, Brian Ray From bray at sent.com Wed Jan 28 19:37:27 2009 From: bray at sent.com (Brian Ray) Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2009 12:37:27 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] Possible Venue, Sully's Message-ID: Through work connections, I know the owner of this bar: http://www.sullyspub.com/ It is located near North and Clyborn Red line stop. He said he has two party rooms that would fit us. They have a large selection of beer, of course. Those under drinking age will have to wear wrist bands. Are we interested? Your thoughts? Brian Ray From cosmin at offbytwo.com Wed Jan 28 21:21:56 2009 From: cosmin at offbytwo.com (Cosmin Stejerean) Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2009 14:21:56 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] Possible Venue, Sully's House In-Reply-To: <7578F0E7-A4EA-4E0C-B628-158F564F810F@sent.com> References: <7578F0E7-A4EA-4E0C-B628-158F564F810F@sent.com> Message-ID: <383bbcce0901281221q71f6bdb7x8a1f6ab7643308f5@mail.gmail.com> On Wed, Jan 28, 2009 at 12:57 PM, Brian Ray wrote: [...] > He said he has two party rooms that would fit us. They have a large > selection of beer, of course. Those under drinking age will have to wear > wrist bands. > That's an interesting choice, unless of course they provide some kinds of wrist bands that are impossible to remove until you leave the bar. Choosing to make people UNDER the drinking age wear wrist bands (as opposed to those OVER the drinking age) seems like a policy intended to encourage underage drinking. -- Cosmin Stejerean http://offbytwo.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jcroneme at thoughtworks.com Thu Jan 29 00:51:58 2009 From: jcroneme at thoughtworks.com (Josh Cronemeyer) Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2009 17:51:58 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] Python Brat Night? In-Reply-To: <9fb45b0b0901262033v7ddf1230pc8bdc27121d7394f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: I'll be there around 8. PEACE! Josh Cronemeyer Tim Saylor Sent by: chicago-bounces+jcroneme=thoughtworks.com at python.org 01/26/09 10:33 PM Please respond to The Chicago Python Users Group To The Chicago Python Users Group cc Subject Re: [Chicago] Python Brat Night? I may be in, it depends how things shake out tomorrow. On Mon, Jan 26, 2009 at 10:10 PM, Cosmin Stejerean wrote: > I'm in for next Wed as well. > > On Mon, Jan 26, 2009 at 9:22 PM, Josh Cronemeyer > wrote: >> >> I'm in, my doctor will STILL be telling me that my fried potato pancake >> count is dangerously low. >> >> PEACE! >> Josh Cronemeyer >> >> >> Kumar McMillan >> Sent by: chicago-bounces+jcroneme=thoughtworks.com at python.org >> >> 01/26/09 08:20 PM >> >> Please respond to >> The Chicago Python Users Group >> To >> The Chicago Python Users Group >> cc >> Subject >> Re: [Chicago] Python Brat Night? >> >> >> >> >> Damn, I love Resi's :) but I might have to skip this one. I can do >> next Wednesday. >> >> On Mon, Jan 26, 2009 at 5:01 PM, Josh Cronemeyer >> wrote: >> > >> > I'm in, my doctor tells me that my fried potato pancake count is >> > dangerously >> > low. >> > >> > PEACE! >> > Josh Cronemeyer >> > >> > >> > Cosmin Stejerean >> > Sent by: chicago-bounces+jcroneme=thoughtworks.com at python.org >> > >> > 01/26/09 04:45 PM >> > >> > Please respond to >> > The Chicago Python Users Group >> > To >> > The Chicago Python Users Group >> > cc >> > Subject >> > Re: [Chicago] Python Brat Night? >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > On Mon, Jan 26, 2009 at 4:40 PM, Chris McAvoy >> > wrote: >> > Anyone up for another social? That German place on Irving Park was >> > awesome last time. How about this Wednesday? >> > >> > Chris >> > _______________________________________________ >> > Chicago mailing list >> > Chicago at python.org >> > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago >> > >> > We've been slacking since the new year started. I'm in for this Wed. >> > >> > -- >> > Cosmin Stejerean >> > http://offbytwo.com >> > _______________________________________________ >> > Chicago mailing list >> > Chicago at python.org >> > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago >> > >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > Chicago mailing list >> > Chicago at python.org >> > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ >> Chicago mailing list >> Chicago at python.org >> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Chicago mailing list >> Chicago at python.org >> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago >> > > > > -- > Cosmin Stejerean > http://offbytwo.com > > > _______________________________________________ > Chicago mailing list > Chicago at python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago > > _______________________________________________ Chicago mailing list Chicago at python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jcroneme at thoughtworks.com Thu Jan 29 01:02:26 2009 From: jcroneme at thoughtworks.com (Josh Cronemeyer) Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2009 18:02:26 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] Save the Date Feb 20 - Martin Fowler at ThoughtWorks Message-ID: I thought this would interest. Sounds like Martin's talk will be on DSL's, but even if it isn't it should be good. Make sure you rsvp (details below). If you cannot read this message, please click here Martin Fowler | Friends & Family Program Innovation Distributed Culture SOA Enterprise USA Lean China XP Cloud J2EE India Agile Ruby Diversity .NET We strive to keep our Friends & Family topics fresh, relevant and interesting. Please click the link below to help us prioritize topics that are most valuable to you and your organization. Distributed Agile/Offshore Grid/Cloud Computing Mobile Development Tools for Agile Development The Agile PMO Lean/Agile/Theory of Constraints Women in Technology Enterprise Architecture Agile Testing I am excited to announce that ThoughtWorks' chief scientist, Martin Fowler , will host our next Friends & Family community event. Much of Martin's current writing and thinking has been in the area of Domain- Specific Languages (DSLs), which will be the subject of a forthcoming book. Please join us at 11:30 AM on February 20, 2009 for an interactive discussion on this and other goodies from the frontier of business technology. Space is limited, so click here to reserve your seat! Our most recent session, Technology And The 2008 Presidential Election, drew a strong turn-out amongst our Friends & Family community and generated a great dialogue between attendees and ThoughtWorkers. We have had a number of requests to take this presentation on the road and share the learnings with organizations that are trying to achieve great things through the use of technology and social networking. Look for an updated link to a video recording of this event to be made available in February, and as always, feel free to reach out to me with any questions. - Matthew Simons Market Principal ThoughtWorks ThoughtWorks | Chicago 200 E. Randolph St | 25th Floor Chicago, IL 60601 | Lean | Offshore | Agile | SOA | EAI | QuickStart | Tools | This message was sent to x by: ThoughtWorks 200 E Randolph St, 25th Floor, Chicago, IL 60601-6501 ? 312-373-1000 Subscribe ? Modify Your Profile ? Unsubscribe ? Forward To A Friend -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 1951 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 1724 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/jpeg Size: 10087 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 43 bytes Desc: not available URL: From MDiPierro at cs.depaul.edu Thu Jan 29 02:38:07 2009 From: MDiPierro at cs.depaul.edu (DiPierro, Massimo) Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2009 19:38:07 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] Python Brat Night? In-Reply-To: References: <9fb45b0b0901262033v7ddf1230pc8bdc27121d7394f@mail.gmail.com>, Message-ID: Have fun for me too. Will have to miss the event. Massimo ________________________________ From: chicago-bounces+mdipierro=cs.depaul.edu at python.org [chicago-bounces+mdipierro=cs.depaul.edu at python.org] On Behalf Of Josh Cronemeyer [jcroneme at thoughtworks.com] Sent: Wednesday, January 28, 2009 5:51 PM To: The Chicago Python Users Group Subject: Re: [Chicago] Python Brat Night? I'll be there around 8. PEACE! Josh Cronemeyer Tim Saylor Sent by: chicago-bounces+jcroneme=thoughtworks.com at python.org 01/26/09 10:33 PM Please respond to The Chicago Python Users Group To The Chicago Python Users Group cc Subject Re: [Chicago] Python Brat Night? I may be in, it depends how things shake out tomorrow. On Mon, Jan 26, 2009 at 10:10 PM, Cosmin Stejerean wrote: > I'm in for next Wed as well. > > On Mon, Jan 26, 2009 at 9:22 PM, Josh Cronemeyer > wrote: >> >> I'm in, my doctor will STILL be telling me that my fried potato pancake >> count is dangerously low. >> >> PEACE! >> Josh Cronemeyer >> >> >> Kumar McMillan >> Sent by: chicago-bounces+jcroneme=thoughtworks.com at python.org >> >> 01/26/09 08:20 PM >> >> Please respond to >> The Chicago Python Users Group >> To >> The Chicago Python Users Group >> cc >> Subject >> Re: [Chicago] Python Brat Night? >> >> >> >> >> Damn, I love Resi's :) but I might have to skip this one. I can do >> next Wednesday. >> >> On Mon, Jan 26, 2009 at 5:01 PM, Josh Cronemeyer >> wrote: >> > >> > I'm in, my doctor tells me that my fried potato pancake count is >> > dangerously >> > low. >> > >> > PEACE! >> > Josh Cronemeyer >> > >> > >> > Cosmin Stejerean >> > Sent by: chicago-bounces+jcroneme=thoughtworks.com at python.org >> > >> > 01/26/09 04:45 PM >> > >> > Please respond to >> > The Chicago Python Users Group >> > To >> > The Chicago Python Users Group >> > cc >> > Subject >> > Re: [Chicago] Python Brat Night? >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > On Mon, Jan 26, 2009 at 4:40 PM, Chris McAvoy >> > wrote: >> > Anyone up for another social? That German place on Irving Park was >> > awesome last time. How about this Wednesday? >> > >> > Chris >> > _______________________________________________ >> > Chicago mailing list >> > Chicago at python.org >> > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago >> > >> > We've been slacking since the new year started. I'm in for this Wed. >> > >> > -- >> > Cosmin Stejerean >> > http://offbytwo.com >> > _______________________________________________ >> > Chicago mailing list >> > Chicago at python.org >> > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago >> > >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > Chicago mailing list >> > Chicago at python.org >> > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ >> Chicago mailing list >> Chicago at python.org >> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Chicago mailing list >> Chicago at python.org >> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago >> > > > > -- > Cosmin Stejerean > http://offbytwo.com > > > _______________________________________________ > Chicago mailing list > Chicago at python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago > > _______________________________________________ Chicago mailing list Chicago at python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago From g at rrett.us.com Thu Jan 29 03:14:40 2009 From: g at rrett.us.com (Garrett Smith) Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2009 20:14:40 -0600 (CST) Subject: [Chicago] Python Brat Night? In-Reply-To: <3096c19d0901280545w2cc3fac5x7a0b6a2373418a9e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <911733621.4280621233195280655.JavaMail.root@mail-3.01.com> Having to bail -- missed deadlines hardly give me an excuse to take an evening off. Next time, fo shuwah. ----- "Chris McAvoy" wrote: > I'll be there around 7. > > Resi's Bierstube > 2034 W Irving Park Rd > Chicago, IL 60618 > (773) 472-1749? > (773) 929-7433? - Fax > > On Tue, Jan 27, 2009 at 8:13 PM, Garrett Smith wrote: > > > > ----- "Chris McAvoy" wrote: > > > >> Anyone up for another social? That German place on Irving Park was > >> awesome last time. How about this Wednesday? > > > > I can make it. But don't take it personally if I'm drunk before > anyone else gets there. > > > > Garrett > > _______________________________________________ > > Chicago mailing list > > Chicago at python.org > > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago > > > _______________________________________________ > Chicago mailing list > Chicago at python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago From szybalski at gmail.com Thu Jan 29 07:08:56 2009 From: szybalski at gmail.com (Lukasz Szybalski) Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2009 00:08:56 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] threads and xmlrpc? Message-ID: <804e5c70901282208ud623b83x85bbdc403fb97c07@mail.gmail.com> Hello, I'm running a threaded app using some calls via xmlrpc. The problem I run into is that connection is reset by peer after about 10min (~500 calls). I use a single connection and a queue of 8 threads to get the data. Would anybody have an example on how to run xmlrpc in a thread? Do I set multiple connections, or is there a setting to keep the connection live or reconnect if disconnected? I've tried to catch the error but that is not working well. I don't want to connect connect for each request, It would be best if somehow I keep the connection live. Thanks, Lucas Traceback (most recent call last): File "/usr/lib/python2.5/threading.py", line 486, in __bootstrap_inner self.run() File "pypi.py", line 29, in run version=pypi.package_releases(package)[0] File "/usr/lib/python2.5/xmlrpclib.py", line 1147, in __call__ return self.__send(self.__name, args) File "/usr/lib/python2.5/xmlrpclib.py", line 1437, in __request verbose=self.__verbose File "/usr/lib/python2.5/xmlrpclib.py", line 1185, in request errcode, errmsg, headers = h.getreply() File "/usr/lib/python2.5/httplib.py", line 1199, in getreply response = self._conn.getresponse() File "/usr/lib/python2.5/httplib.py", line 928, in getresponse response.begin() File "/usr/lib/python2.5/httplib.py", line 385, in begin version, status, reason = self._read_status() File "/usr/lib/python2.5/httplib.py", line 343, in _read_status line = self.fp.readline() File "/usr/lib/python2.5/socket.py", line 372, in readline data = recv(1) error: (104, 'Connection reset by peer') -- How to create python package? http://lucasmanual.com/mywiki/PythonPaste Bazaar and Launchpad http://lucasmanual.com/mywiki/Bazaar From maney at two14.net Thu Jan 29 14:41:33 2009 From: maney at two14.net (Martin Maney) Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2009 07:41:33 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] threads and xmlrpc? In-Reply-To: <804e5c70901282208ud623b83x85bbdc403fb97c07@mail.gmail.com> References: <804e5c70901282208ud623b83x85bbdc403fb97c07@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20090129134133.GB19127@furrr.two14.net> On Thu, Jan 29, 2009 at 12:08:56AM -0600, Lukasz Szybalski wrote: > I'm running a threaded app using some calls via xmlrpc. The problem I > run into is that connection is reset by peer after about 10min (~500 > calls). I use a single connection and a queue of 8 threads to get the What's running on the server side? Especially if the timeout happens after a more or less constant number of requests on different tries, I would assume the server caps the number of requests in one of several ways (per-connection, per-handler thread/process, whatever). -- Happy Holidays! Cry "Charge it!" and let slip the dogs of more. From szybalski at gmail.com Thu Jan 29 15:51:20 2009 From: szybalski at gmail.com (Lukasz Szybalski) Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2009 08:51:20 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] threads and xmlrpc? In-Reply-To: <20090129134133.GB19127@furrr.two14.net> References: <804e5c70901282208ud623b83x85bbdc403fb97c07@mail.gmail.com> <20090129134133.GB19127@furrr.two14.net> Message-ID: <804e5c70901290651i4e7b9195vaa40792a34e35cad@mail.gmail.com> On Thu, Jan 29, 2009 at 7:41 AM, Martin Maney wrote: > On Thu, Jan 29, 2009 at 12:08:56AM -0600, Lukasz Szybalski wrote: >> I'm running a threaded app using some calls via xmlrpc. The problem I >> run into is that connection is reset by peer after about 10min (~500 >> calls). I use a single connection and a queue of 8 threads to get the > > What's running on the server side? Especially if the timeout happens > after a more or less constant number of requests on different tries, I > would assume the server caps the number of requests in one of several > ways (per-connection, per-handler thread/process, whatever). I'm trying to download stuff from pypi via their xmlrpc. So what you are saying is I should limit the number of threads to something less then 5 and see what happens? Thanks, Lucas From tim at gebhardtcomputing.com Thu Jan 29 16:02:33 2009 From: tim at gebhardtcomputing.com (Tim Gebhardt) Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2009 09:02:33 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] threads and xmlrpc? In-Reply-To: <804e5c70901290651i4e7b9195vaa40792a34e35cad@mail.gmail.com> References: <804e5c70901282208ud623b83x85bbdc403fb97c07@mail.gmail.com> <20090129134133.GB19127@furrr.two14.net> <804e5c70901290651i4e7b9195vaa40792a34e35cad@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1ce3f61a0901290702l7ad55c58yfb9ab1c0720ff128@mail.gmail.com> If xmlrpc obeys the HTTP standard connection limit, you're limited to 2 concurrent connections per host. Hammering PyPi's server with more than 5 concurrent connections is also a little inconsiderate on your own part (please don't take this as an insult. Email is one-dimensional communication). I've mirrored Project Gutenberg before and they heavily rate limit people who do that: 1 connection at a time and a 2 second delay after every request. -Tim Gebhardt tim at gebhardtcomputing.com On Thu, Jan 29, 2009 at 8:51 AM, Lukasz Szybalski wrote: > > > I'm trying to download stuff from pypi via their xmlrpc. So what you > are saying is I should limit the number of threads to something less > then 5 and see what happens? > > Thanks, > Lucas > _______________________________________________ > Chicago mailing list > Chicago at python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From g at rrett.us.com Thu Jan 29 16:44:22 2009 From: g at rrett.us.com (Garrett Smith) Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2009 09:44:22 -0600 (CST) Subject: [Chicago] threads and xmlrpc? In-Reply-To: <2056934158.4780961233243589200.JavaMail.root@mail-3.01.com> Message-ID: <384939365.4783001233243862512.JavaMail.root@mail-3.01.com> ----- "Lukasz Szybalski" wrote: > Hello, > I'm running a threaded app using some calls via xmlrpc. I'd look to decouple the server from your application. HTTP connections, thread management, etc. are very solved problems. You want a wsgi server (e.g. cherrypy) and something to let you plug your RPC implementation into it as middleware. I'm sure the project owner, who happens to frequent this list, can comment in greater detail, but this project looks about right... http://code.google.com/p/wsgi-intercept/ From carl at personnelware.com Thu Jan 29 17:18:22 2009 From: carl at personnelware.com (Carl Karsten) Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2009 10:18:22 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] pycon practice at Leapfrog tonight Message-ID: <4981D6CE.5060802@personnelware.com> 5:15-7pm. Leapfrog Online 807 Greenwood St Evanston, IL 60201 5:15-6:00 setup 6:00-6:30 PyS60 (Python on the Nokia S60 series phone) 6:30-7:00 Strategies For Testing AJAX Web Applications 7:30 dinner at a local restaurant. I am going to record it, and it would be great if there was some audience to ask questions. and clap. but no boo. I wouldn't mind having a 2nd person to run the sound board, and a 3rd to move a camera around, and 4th person to aim the 2nd camera. I was able to do it by myself, but the closer it is to the PyCon setup, the better. and each thing I have to do burns up another few minutes, which quickly add up to "I'm not ready yet." Carl K From kumar.mcmillan at gmail.com Thu Jan 29 18:06:45 2009 From: kumar.mcmillan at gmail.com (Kumar McMillan) Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2009 11:06:45 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] pycon practice at Leapfrog tonight In-Reply-To: <4981D6CE.5060802@personnelware.com> References: <4981D6CE.5060802@personnelware.com> Message-ID: For anyone interested, send me an email to let me know you are coming - kumar.mcmillan at gmail.com - and keep my cell number handy so I can let you in: 773-726-2397. Anyone is welcome to attend but the room isn't too big. On Thu, Jan 29, 2009 at 10:18 AM, Carl Karsten wrote: > 5:15-7pm. > > Leapfrog Online > 807 Greenwood St > Evanston, IL 60201 > > 5:15-6:00 setup > 6:00-6:30 PyS60 (Python on the Nokia S60 series phone) > 6:30-7:00 Strategies For Testing AJAX Web Applications > 7:30 dinner at a local restaurant. > > I am going to record it, and it would be great if there was some audience to > ask questions. and clap. but no boo. > > I wouldn't mind having a 2nd person to run the sound board, and a 3rd to > move a camera around, and 4th person to aim the 2nd camera. I was able to > do it by myself, but the closer it is to the PyCon setup, the better. and > each thing I have to do burns up another few minutes, which quickly add up > to "I'm not ready yet." > > Carl K > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Chicago mailing list > Chicago at python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago > From jcroneme at thoughtworks.com Thu Jan 29 20:04:20 2009 From: jcroneme at thoughtworks.com (Josh Cronemeyer) Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2009 13:04:20 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] Save the Date Feb 20 - Martin Fowler at ThoughtWorks In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Oh... the link in the message below is confusing becuase it says "test mode" on the page if you follow it. If you already rsvp'd with that link, you don't need to do anything else, you are good to go... but going forward here is the correct link for rsvp. http://connect.thoughtworks.com/g/?PNV7222FRG PEACE! Josh Cronemeyer Josh Cronemeyer/US/ThoughtWorks 01/28/09 06:02 PM To cc Subject Save the Date Feb 20 - Martin Fowler at ThoughtWorks I thought this would interest. Sounds like Martin's talk will be on DSL's, but even if it isn't it should be good. Make sure you rsvp (details below). If you cannot read this message, please click here Martin Fowler | Friends & Family Program Innovation Distributed Culture SOA Enterprise USA Lean China XP Cloud J2EE India Agile Ruby Diversity .NET We strive to keep our Friends & Family topics fresh, relevant and interesting. Please click the link below to help us prioritize topics that are most valuable to you and your organization. Distributed Agile/Offshore Grid/Cloud Computing Mobile Development Tools for Agile Development The Agile PMO Lean/Agile/Theory of Constraints Women in Technology Enterprise Architecture Agile Testing I am excited to announce that ThoughtWorks' chief scientist, Martin Fowler , will host our next Friends & Family community event. Much of Martin's current writing and thinking has been in the area of Domain- Specific Languages (DSLs), which will be the subject of a forthcoming book. Please join us at 11:30 AM on February 20, 2009 for an interactive discussion on this and other goodies from the frontier of business technology. Space is limited, so click here to reserve your seat! Our most recent session, Technology And The 2008 Presidential Election, drew a strong turn-out amongst our Friends & Family community and generated a great dialogue between attendees and ThoughtWorkers. We have had a number of requests to take this presentation on the road and share the learnings with organizations that are trying to achieve great things through the use of technology and social networking. Look for an updated link to a video recording of this event to be made available in February, and as always, feel free to reach out to me with any questions. - Matthew Simons Market Principal ThoughtWorks ThoughtWorks | Chicago 200 E. Randolph St | 25th Floor Chicago, IL 60601 | Lean | Offshore | Agile | SOA | EAI | QuickStart | Tools | This message was sent to x by: ThoughtWorks 200 E Randolph St, 25th Floor, Chicago, IL 60601-6501 ? 312-373-1000 Subscribe ? Modify Your Profile ? Unsubscribe ? Forward To A Friend -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 1951 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 1724 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/jpeg Size: 10087 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 43 bytes Desc: not available URL: From szybalski at gmail.com Fri Jan 30 05:46:47 2009 From: szybalski at gmail.com (Lukasz Szybalski) Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2009 22:46:47 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] threads and xmlrpc? In-Reply-To: <1ce3f61a0901290702l7ad55c58yfb9ab1c0720ff128@mail.gmail.com> References: <804e5c70901282208ud623b83x85bbdc403fb97c07@mail.gmail.com> <20090129134133.GB19127@furrr.two14.net> <804e5c70901290651i4e7b9195vaa40792a34e35cad@mail.gmail.com> <1ce3f61a0901290702l7ad55c58yfb9ab1c0720ff128@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <804e5c70901292046i3756ac42wb7cf643be6545a36@mail.gmail.com> On Thu, Jan 29, 2009 at 9:02 AM, Tim Gebhardt wrote: > If xmlrpc obeys the HTTP standard connection limit, you're limited to 2 > concurrent connections per host. Could you point me to some docs on this. What I am comparing it to is an apache server which can handle 100+ requests per second with no problems. With Project Gutenberg we are talking about TB of data. With Pypi we are talking about Hammering PyPi's server with more than 5 concurrent connections is also a > little inconsiderate on your own part (please don't take this as an insult. > Email is one-dimensional communication). I've mirrored Project Gutenberg > before and they heavily rate limit people who do that: 1 connection at a > time and a 2 second delay after every request. > -Tim Gebhardt > tim at gebhardtcomputing.com > > On Thu, Jan 29, 2009 at 8:51 AM, Lukasz Szybalski > wrote: >> >> I'm trying to download stuff from pypi via their xmlrpc. So what you >> are saying is I should limit the number of threads to something less >> then 5 and see what happens? >> >> Thanks, >> Lucas >> _______________________________________________ >> Chicago mailing list >> Chicago at python.org >> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago > > > _______________________________________________ > Chicago mailing list > Chicago at python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago > > -- How to create python package? http://lucasmanual.com/mywiki/PythonPaste Bazaar and Launchpad http://lucasmanual.com/mywiki/Bazaar From ccf3 at mindspring.com Fri Jan 30 06:38:27 2009 From: ccf3 at mindspring.com (Clyde Forrester) Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2009 23:38:27 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] Languages compared with Python Message-ID: <49829253.5090509@mindspring.com> As promised here is a list of the languages which were or were not compared with Python at the last meeting: Languages covered: C Logo Smalltalk Groovy Java Ruby JavaScript Boo C/C++ Lua Clojure C# In addition, while not scheduled originally, Scheme was covered tcl/tk was scheduled, but not covered The following languages were not covered, and many of them were mentioned: Perl Fortran Cobol Pascal Lisp Forth PHP Whitespace Brainfuck Lolcats Visual Basic Modula Erlang SQL Snobol Awk Business Basic Focal IITran Spantran APL Assembler From tottinge at gmail.com Fri Jan 30 14:59:06 2009 From: tottinge at gmail.com (Tim Ottinger) Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2009 07:59:06 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] Languages compared with Python In-Reply-To: <49829253.5090509@mindspring.com> References: <49829253.5090509@mindspring.com> Message-ID: <498307AA.9040205@gmail.com> Clyde Forrester wrote: > As promised here is a list of the languages which were or were not > compared with Python at the last meeting That would have to be a comprehensive list of every language, since every language was or was not compared at the meeting...? Pedantically yours. Tim Ottinger From tim at gebhardtcomputing.com Fri Jan 30 16:45:47 2009 From: tim at gebhardtcomputing.com (Tim Gebhardt) Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2009 09:45:47 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] threads and xmlrpc? In-Reply-To: <804e5c70901292046i3756ac42wb7cf643be6545a36@mail.gmail.com> References: <804e5c70901282208ud623b83x85bbdc403fb97c07@mail.gmail.com> <20090129134133.GB19127@furrr.two14.net> <804e5c70901290651i4e7b9195vaa40792a34e35cad@mail.gmail.com> <1ce3f61a0901290702l7ad55c58yfb9ab1c0720ff128@mail.gmail.com> <804e5c70901292046i3756ac42wb7cf643be6545a36@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1ce3f61a0901300745v5b604eddn91b40a37935a9422@mail.gmail.com> The 2 connections per host is defined in the HTTP RFC: http://www.faqs.org/rfcs/rfc2068.html See section 8.1.4. The RFC says "should limit 2 connections per server" and a lot of http client libraries obey this. I know for a fact that the .NET web client class does. I don't know what python does for sure so I'd hate to comment. This is one of the reasons why a lot of HTTP client libraries implement the "request" object instances as a factory rather than just instantiate the class directly: >>> import urllib2 >>> f = urllib2.urlopen('http://www.python.org/') #Returns a Request object >>> print f.read(100) Rather than: >>> import urllib2 >>> r = urllib2.Request("http://www.python.org") >>> print r.open().read(100) The Java and .NET HTTP client libraries I've used all implement it in a similar way because it's easier to set up stuff like connection limits and keep-alive. In any case, from my python web scraping days with httplib2, I found that I would reduce the number of timeouts and request errors if I waited for 1 second after every request to a particular host. -Tim Gebhardt tim at gebhardtcomputing.com On Thu, Jan 29, 2009 at 10:46 PM, Lukasz Szybalski wrote: > On Thu, Jan 29, 2009 at 9:02 AM, Tim Gebhardt > wrote: > > If xmlrpc obeys the HTTP standard connection limit, you're limited to 2 > > concurrent connections per host. > > Could you point me to some docs on this. What I am comparing it to is > an apache server which can handle 100+ requests per second with no > problems. With Project Gutenberg we are talking about TB of data. With > Pypi we are talking about second. So I think I should be able to achieve bandwidth of about > 20kb/s minimum without anybody noticing any performance hits. > > I've emailed pypi, but if there are other things to consider, or you > might know why such a low throughput on xmlrpc I would be interested > to know more. > > Thanks, > Lucas > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bray at sent.com Fri Jan 30 18:40:06 2009 From: bray at sent.com (Brian Ray) Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2009 11:40:06 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] Visio Altenatives Message-ID: Hello: Looking for Visio alternatives I came across Dia, which seems to be scriptable with Python . I am just looking for some free flow charting software. Has anyone tried, Dia? UML and Python scriptability support is a plus, but not my primary goal. I need to send a flowchart as PDF to an international workgroup who may embed as a graphic in a spec or publication. I run primarily on Mac and have some limited access to other OSs. Dia does not say it runs on the mac, so alternatives that do, would be helpful. I see Omni Graf does have Python support, but also, is commercial. I like free and open so I can fix it if it breaks. Brian Ray From swgithen at mtu.edu Fri Jan 30 18:49:02 2009 From: swgithen at mtu.edu (Steven Githens) Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2009 12:49:02 -0500 Subject: [Chicago] Visio Altenatives In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <49833D8E.7070509@mtu.edu> I personally love Dia and use it quite a bit when I need to make diagrams and architecture workflows. I don't require insane amounts of functionality though, and haven't tried the Python scripting other than looking at a few examples. If you can get anything else GTK or Gnome based to run on OS X with Fink or whatever is the hip OSS build chain for OS X these days, I'm guessing Dia shouldn't be a problem. -s Brian Ray wrote: > Hello: > > Looking for Visio alternatives I came across Dia, which seems to be > scriptable with Python . > > I am just looking for some free flow charting software. Has anyone > tried, Dia? UML and Python scriptability support is a plus, but not my > primary goal. I need to send a flowchart as PDF to an international > workgroup who may embed as a graphic in a spec or publication. > > I run primarily on Mac and have some limited access to other OSs. Dia > does not say it runs on the mac, so alternatives that do, would be > helpful. I see Omni Graf does have Python support, but also, is > commercial. I like free and open so I can fix it if it breaks. > > Brian Ray > > > > _______________________________________________ > Chicago mailing list > Chicago at python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago From maney at two14.net Fri Jan 30 19:19:03 2009 From: maney at two14.net (Martin Maney) Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2009 12:19:03 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] Visio Altenatives In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20090130181903.GB31650@furrr.two14.net> On Fri, Jan 30, 2009 at 11:40:06AM -0600, Brian Ray wrote: > I am just looking for some free flow charting software. Has anyone > tried, Dia? UML and Python scriptability support is a plus, but not my > primary goal. I need to send a flowchart as PDF to an international > workgroup who may embed as a graphic in a spec or publication. I've been abusing dia's UML templates to document a fairly complex (1) Django app's models and been pretty happy with it for that. I suppose flow charts are just the thing for some applications, but I haven't drawn one since... oh, well, last month, but that was to help decipher some old PIC microcontroller code. Hmmm... Looks like a pretty good set of flowchart symbols there... (1) twenty six tables, counting many-to-many relations as well as a good bunch of auxillary tables (viz., provide target for FK to constrain a main table's column, map it to human-friendly name or description, sometimes add characterization of the codes for the program to use...). By ERP standards it's tiny, but most Django apps seem to run to half a dozen models or less. (s/Django/web/, really). -- The Internet discourages reflection and deep thought. It encourages just glossing over, as quick as possible. The Internet is a terrific way to look up facts and a terrible way to get a story. -- Clifford Stoll From varmaa at gmail.com Fri Jan 30 19:44:44 2009 From: varmaa at gmail.com (Atul Varma) Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2009 10:44:44 -0800 Subject: [Chicago] Visio Altenatives In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <361b27370901301044j45fa14dq39067a8fe4abe83b@mail.gmail.com> On Fri, Jan 30, 2009 at 9:40 AM, Brian Ray wrote: > I run primarily on Mac and have some limited access to other OSs. Dia does > not say it runs on the mac, so alternatives that do, would be helpful. I > see Omni Graf does have Python support, but also, is commercial. I like > free and open so I can fix it if it breaks. > As far as I know, OmniGraffle doesn't break. It is too bad that it's commercial, even worse that the cool-looking SVG export feature is only available on the couple-hundred-dollar professional version, but this is seriously good software. Really, really easy to use and it makes gorgeous diagrams [1]. It's also what all the graphic/visual/UX designers I know use, so there's lots of third-party stuff floating around for it as well. - Atul [1] https://wiki.mozilla.org/Labs/Ubiquity/0.2_Design:_UI_and_Security_Extensibility#Proposed_Architecture -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From szybalski at gmail.com Fri Jan 30 20:19:59 2009 From: szybalski at gmail.com (Lukasz Szybalski) Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2009 13:19:59 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] threads and xmlrpc? In-Reply-To: <1ce3f61a0901300745v5b604eddn91b40a37935a9422@mail.gmail.com> References: <804e5c70901282208ud623b83x85bbdc403fb97c07@mail.gmail.com> <20090129134133.GB19127@furrr.two14.net> <804e5c70901290651i4e7b9195vaa40792a34e35cad@mail.gmail.com> <1ce3f61a0901290702l7ad55c58yfb9ab1c0720ff128@mail.gmail.com> <804e5c70901292046i3756ac42wb7cf643be6545a36@mail.gmail.com> <1ce3f61a0901300745v5b604eddn91b40a37935a9422@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <804e5c70901301119m20d81c2cqf741568a9373832c@mail.gmail.com> On Fri, Jan 30, 2009 at 9:45 AM, Tim Gebhardt wrote: > The 2 connections per host is defined in the HTTP RFC: > http://www.faqs.org/rfcs/rfc2068.html > > See section 8.1.4. > The RFC says "should limit 2 connections per server" and a lot of http > client libraries obey this. I know for a fact that the .NET web client > class does. I don't know what python does for sure so I'd hate to comment. > This is one of the reasons why a lot of HTTP client libraries implement the > "request" object instances as a factory rather than just instantiate the > class directly: >>>> import urllib2 >>>> f = urllib2.urlopen('http://www.python.org/') #Returns a Request object >>>> print f.read(100) > Rather than: >>>> import urllib2 >>>> r = urllib2.Request("http://www.python.org") >>>> print r.open().read(100) I see. Looking at this example on threads: http://www.ibm.com/developerworks/aix/library/au-threadingpython/index.html this is implemented withing the thread.each thread calls....: url = urllib2.urlopen(host) Looking at the xmlrpc examples the way I connect is: http://docs.python.org/library/xmlrpclib.html pypi=xmlrpclib.ServerProxy(XML_RPC_SERVER) My question is: is urlopen(xyz) similar to serverproxy(xyz) ? If yes then I can use it within the thread and issue that in each thread. But if its not and this will make at the end 5000 active connections then that won't work . How would I know if serverproxy returns a instance of the class vs request object? Thanks a lot, Lucas > The Java and .NET HTTP client libraries I've used all implement it in a > similar way because it's easier to set up stuff like connection limits and > keep-alive. > In any case, from my python web scraping days with httplib2, I found that I > would reduce the number of timeouts and request errors if I waited for 1 > second after every request to a particular host. > -Tim Gebhardt > tim at gebhardtcomputing.com > > On Thu, Jan 29, 2009 at 10:46 PM, Lukasz Szybalski > wrote: >> >> On Thu, Jan 29, 2009 at 9:02 AM, Tim Gebhardt >> wrote: >> > If xmlrpc obeys the HTTP standard connection limit, you're limited to 2 >> > concurrent connections per host. >> >> Could you point me to some docs on this. What I am comparing it to is >> an apache server which can handle 100+ requests per second with no >> problems. With Project Gutenberg we are talking about TB of data. With >> Pypi we are talking about > second. So I think I should be able to achieve bandwidth of about >> 20kb/s minimum without anybody noticing any performance hits. >> >> I've emailed pypi, but if there are other things to consider, or you >> might know why such a low throughput on xmlrpc I would be interested >> to know more. >> >> Thanks, >> Lucas > > > _______________________________________________ > Chicago mailing list > Chicago at python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago > > -- How to create python package? http://lucasmanual.com/mywiki/PythonPaste Bazaar and Launchpad http://lucasmanual.com/mywiki/Bazaar From tottinge at gmail.com Fri Jan 30 21:14:40 2009 From: tottinge at gmail.com (Tim Ottinger) Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2009 14:14:40 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] Visio Altenatives In-Reply-To: <361b27370901301044j45fa14dq39067a8fe4abe83b@mail.gmail.com> References: <361b27370901301044j45fa14dq39067a8fe4abe83b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <49835FB0.1090009@gmail.com> /I'm never happy with digramming tools, but I didn't hate tcm and dia very much./ From tim at gebhardtcomputing.com Fri Jan 30 21:13:59 2009 From: tim at gebhardtcomputing.com (Tim Gebhardt) Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2009 14:13:59 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] threads and xmlrpc? In-Reply-To: <804e5c70901301119m20d81c2cqf741568a9373832c@mail.gmail.com> References: <804e5c70901282208ud623b83x85bbdc403fb97c07@mail.gmail.com> <20090129134133.GB19127@furrr.two14.net> <804e5c70901290651i4e7b9195vaa40792a34e35cad@mail.gmail.com> <1ce3f61a0901290702l7ad55c58yfb9ab1c0720ff128@mail.gmail.com> <804e5c70901292046i3756ac42wb7cf643be6545a36@mail.gmail.com> <1ce3f61a0901300745v5b604eddn91b40a37935a9422@mail.gmail.com> <804e5c70901301119m20d81c2cqf741568a9373832c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1ce3f61a0901301213o183c1725l768c43108799aab7@mail.gmail.com> On Fri, Jan 30, 2009 at 1:19 PM, Lukasz Szybalski wrote: > > I see. > Looking at this example on threads: > http://www.ibm.com/developerworks/aix/library/au-threadingpython/index.html > > this is implemented withing the thread.each thread calls....: > url = urllib2.urlopen(host) > > Looking at the xmlrpc examples the way I connect is: > http://docs.python.org/library/xmlrpclib.html > pypi=xmlrpclib.ServerProxy(XML_RPC_SERVER) > > My question is: is urlopen(xyz) similar to serverproxy(xyz) ? If yes > then I can use it within the thread and issue that in each thread. But > if its not and this will make at the end 5000 active connections then > that won't work . > > How would I know if serverproxy returns a instance of the class vs > request object? > > Thanks a lot, > Lucas > I looked back on your original email in your original problem and have you tried doing what you're doing without threads? Is there some particular reason why you need 8 threads? Have you tried with just 1, then 2, then 3, etc.? I'm asking because if PyPI has Keep-Alive enabled on their webserver you'll almost certainly get the peak performance with a single thread hitting their single endpoint. The error you indicated (connection reset by peer) indicates that the connection was purposely (either deliberately or inadvertently) terminated. The webserver or a proxy or a firewall on their end may be set up to reject too many connection attempts in a certain time window. Or they could have Keep-Alive enabled and the connection is open for too long so they're severing it. Like I mentioned before in my last email I used to screen scrape a lot of stuff with some Python scripts. I used to screen scrape financial news sites in hopes of one day turning that into an automated trading system. I very aggressively scraped those sites and I would get a lot of errors as well, stuff like connection reset by peer. Eventually I tuned down my aggressiveness and the errors pretty much went away. If you're not paying for the information or don't have an SLA with PyPI then there's no obligation to serve you that information in a timely or reliable manner. In that case you may want to try delaying the requests and only using a single thread. See if the errors go away. The error you're getting doesn't indicate that there's something wrong on your end, it indicates something on PyPI's end or your ISP transmission of your data. -Tim Gebhardt tim at gebhardtcomputing.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kirby.urner at gmail.com Fri Jan 30 21:33:05 2009 From: kirby.urner at gmail.com (kirby urner) Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2009 12:33:05 -0800 Subject: [Chicago] threads and xmlrpc? In-Reply-To: <1ce3f61a0901301213o183c1725l768c43108799aab7@mail.gmail.com> References: <804e5c70901282208ud623b83x85bbdc403fb97c07@mail.gmail.com> <20090129134133.GB19127@furrr.two14.net> <804e5c70901290651i4e7b9195vaa40792a34e35cad@mail.gmail.com> <1ce3f61a0901290702l7ad55c58yfb9ab1c0720ff128@mail.gmail.com> <804e5c70901292046i3756ac42wb7cf643be6545a36@mail.gmail.com> <1ce3f61a0901300745v5b604eddn91b40a37935a9422@mail.gmail.com> <804e5c70901301119m20d81c2cqf741568a9373832c@mail.gmail.com> <1ce3f61a0901301213o183c1725l768c43108799aab7@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Not sure if relevant in any way but I've advised at least one client to consider Pyro over XMLRPC when it comes to interprocess communication. It's not like you necessarily need both or anything and you'll find testimony on the web that Pyro is faster, if you're willing to live within the Pythonic domain (and many are). Kirby [ wrote this scaffolding (skeletal) for Synovate, bouncing of Patrick's production code version ] """ Yo, I'm a Pyro Client, meaning I talk to some Pyro Server, perhaps on a different machine. I'm actually something of a "hive mind" in that we're actually a suite of separate processes, called Bees, each with independent access to a backend Content table. As we complete our tasks, our Queen sends notifications back to Mother. Bees come in two flavors, Visitor and Scorer, each defined in separate modules, and inheriting from Bee """ import Pyro.core import time import random from processing import currentProcess, Process, freezeSupport from processing import Queue class Queen: def __init__(self): self._open_channel() self.need_content = [] def _open_channel(self): """ establish a connection to Mother and instance her remote objects """ self.mom = Pyro.core.getProxyForURI("PYROLOC://localhost:7766/Mother") def need_content_for(self): """ urls needing stuff in Content """ self.need_content = self.mom.need_visitors() return self.need_content def need_scores_for(self): """ stuff in Content needing scoring """ self.need_scores = self.mom.need_scores() return self.need_scores def content_found(self, completed): """ tell Mother what I've downloaded """ self.mom.been_visited(completed) def score_found(self, completed): """ tell Mother what I've scored """ self.mom.been_scored(completed) def kill_daemon(self): self.mom.kill_daemon() class Bee: """ I talk directly to sql's Content, report to Queen when I'm done (she talks to Mother) """ # busy work for testing def __init__(self): pass def busy_work(self, input, output): for item in iter(input.get, 'STOP'): func, args = item result = calculate(func, args) output.put(result) def start(self): pass def stop(self): pass #========== for testing purposes ======== def calculate(func, args): result = func(*args) return '%s says that %s%s = %s' % \ (currentProcess().getName(), func.__name__, args, result) def mul(a, b): time.sleep(0.5*random.random()) return a * b def plus(a, b): time.sleep(0.5*random.random()) return a + b def test1(): # finds object automatically if you're running the Name Server. jokes = Pyro.core.getProxyForURI("PYROLOC://localhost:7766/Mother") print jokes.joke("Irmen") def test2(): NUMBER_OF_PROCESSES = 4 TASKS1 = [(mul, (i, 7)) for i in range(20)] TASKS2 = [(plus, (i, 8)) for i in range(10)] # Create queues task_queue = Queue() done_queue = Queue() # Submit tasks task_queue.putmany(TASKS1) # Start worker processes for i in range(NUMBER_OF_PROCESSES): thebee = Bee() Process(target=thebee.busy_work, args=(task_queue, done_queue)).start() # Get and print results print 'Unordered results:' for i in range(len(TASKS1)): print '\t', done_queue.get() # Add more tasks using `put()` instead of `putmany()` for task in TASKS2: task_queue.put(task) # Get and print some more results for i in range(len(TASKS2)): print '\t', done_queue.get() # Tell child processes to stop for i in range(NUMBER_OF_PROCESSES): task_queue.put('STOP') #========== for testing purposes ======== if __name__ == '__main__': # we'll wait to test the Queen with one of the subclasses of Bee # since Queen talks to the daemon Mother # test1() test2() From szybalski at gmail.com Sat Jan 31 06:51:23 2009 From: szybalski at gmail.com (Lukasz Szybalski) Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2009 23:51:23 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] threads and xmlrpc? In-Reply-To: <1ce3f61a0901301213o183c1725l768c43108799aab7@mail.gmail.com> References: <804e5c70901282208ud623b83x85bbdc403fb97c07@mail.gmail.com> <20090129134133.GB19127@furrr.two14.net> <804e5c70901290651i4e7b9195vaa40792a34e35cad@mail.gmail.com> <1ce3f61a0901290702l7ad55c58yfb9ab1c0720ff128@mail.gmail.com> <804e5c70901292046i3756ac42wb7cf643be6545a36@mail.gmail.com> <1ce3f61a0901300745v5b604eddn91b40a37935a9422@mail.gmail.com> <804e5c70901301119m20d81c2cqf741568a9373832c@mail.gmail.com> <1ce3f61a0901301213o183c1725l768c43108799aab7@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <804e5c70901302151g1c904892r29ab10d6d3107ad7@mail.gmail.com> On Fri, Jan 30, 2009 at 2:13 PM, Tim Gebhardt wrote: > > On Fri, Jan 30, 2009 at 1:19 PM, Lukasz Szybalski > wrote: >> >> I see. >> Looking at this example on threads: >> >> http://www.ibm.com/developerworks/aix/library/au-threadingpython/index.html >> >> this is implemented withing the thread.each thread calls....: >> url = urllib2.urlopen(host) >> >> Looking at the xmlrpc examples the way I connect is: >> http://docs.python.org/library/xmlrpclib.html >> pypi=xmlrpclib.ServerProxy(XML_RPC_SERVER) >> >> My question is: is urlopen(xyz) similar to serverproxy(xyz) ? If yes >> then I can use it within the thread and issue that in each thread. But >> if its not and this will make at the end 5000 active connections then >> that won't work . >> >> How would I know if serverproxy returns a instance of the class vs >> request object? >> >> Thanks a lot, >> Lucas > > I looked back on your original email in your original problem and have you > tried doing what you're doing without threads? Is there some particular > reason why you need 8 threads? Have you tried with just 1, then 2, then 3, > etc.? > I'm asking because if PyPI has Keep-Alive enabled on their webserver you'll > almost certainly get the peak performance with a single thread hitting their > single endpoint. The error you indicated (connection reset by peer) > indicates that the connection was purposely (either deliberately or > inadvertently) terminated. > The webserver or a proxy or a firewall on their end may be set up to reject > too many connection attempts in a certain time window. Or they could have > Keep-Alive enabled and the connection is open for too long so they're > severing it. > Like I mentioned before in my last email I used to screen scrape a lot of > stuff with some Python scripts. I used to screen scrape financial news > sites in hopes of one day turning that into an automated trading system. How did that go? Do you still get the data? Do you have the whole set available? I've google searched some more and I found out that xmlrpc has some performance issues. Too bad, it seemed as really easy way to communicate with other servers. I wonder if there is a performance benchmark for C/C++ based xmlrpc vs xmlrpclib from python. FYI. Its been 1.30 I am downloading a version number for packages starting at letter t. When done I want to download metadata. That probably will take at least 6h+. Thanks, Lucas I > very aggressively scraped those sites and I would get a lot of errors as > well, stuff like connection reset by peer. Eventually I tuned down my > aggressiveness and the errors pretty much went away. > If you're not paying for the information or don't have an SLA with PyPI then > there's no obligation to serve you that information in a timely or reliable > manner. In that case you may want to try delaying the requests and only > using a single thread. See if the errors go away. The error you're getting > doesn't indicate that there's something wrong on your end, it indicates > something on PyPI's end or your ISP transmission of your data. > -Tim Gebhardt > tim at gebhardtcomputing.com > _______________________________________________ > Chicago mailing list > Chicago at python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago > > -- How to create python package? http://lucasmanual.com/mywiki/PythonPaste Bazaar and Launchpad http://lucasmanual.com/mywiki/Bazaar