From brian.curtin at gmail.com  Mon Dec  1 03:35:10 2008
From: brian.curtin at gmail.com (curtin@acm.org)
Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2008 20:35:10 -0600
Subject: [Chicago] python 2.5.2 question
In-Reply-To: <165855.21824.qm@web36504.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <165855.21824.qm@web36504.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <cf9f31f20811301835y299c6ef0r916688e53d192572@mail.gmail.com>

The easiest way to know this might be to try it out yourself.

On Sat, Nov 29, 2008 at 10:15 PM, Craig Petty <fasteliteprogrammer at yahoo.com
> wrote:

> I just update my python 2.5.1 to 2.5.2 and i want to know can i still use
> like pcapy and scapy from fedora 9 without and probs?
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Chicago mailing list
> Chicago at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>
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From mdipierro at cs.depaul.edu  Mon Dec  1 19:50:59 2008
From: mdipierro at cs.depaul.edu (Massimo Di Pierro)
Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2008 12:50:59 -0600
Subject: [Chicago] next meeting
Message-ID: <983BE845-4112-47DA-8A22-DFDF99AF3AF0@cs.depaul.edu>

Hello everybody,

classes are over. It seems I will be able to make it to the last  
meeting of the year. What's on the agenda? The web site says TDB.

Massimo

From bray at sent.com  Tue Dec  2 02:40:54 2008
From: bray at sent.com (Brian Ray)
Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2008 19:40:54 -0600
Subject: [Chicago] next meeting
In-Reply-To: <983BE845-4112-47DA-8A22-DFDF99AF3AF0@cs.depaul.edu>
References: <983BE845-4112-47DA-8A22-DFDF99AF3AF0@cs.depaul.edu>
Message-ID: <8C1850B3-E944-4AE1-8749-7B56BFDE10DE@sent.com>


On Dec 1, 2008, at 12:50 PM, Massimo Di Pierro wrote:

> classes are over. It seems I will be able to make it to the last  
> meeting of the year. What's on the agenda? The web site says TDB.


I wonder if someone who is very diplomatic and truly fair would be  
willing to do a Ruby / Python language comparison?

Brian Ray




From stcorbett at gmail.com  Tue Dec  2 04:29:12 2008
From: stcorbett at gmail.com (Sean Corbett)
Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2008 21:29:12 -0600
Subject: [Chicago] next meeting: Ruby/Python Language Comparison?
Message-ID: <b7391af90812011929w2cdd9c9dg80fca02107562c9e@mail.gmail.com>

Any interest in bringing the two Chicago language user groups together for a
comparison?

-Sean Corbett

On Mon, Dec 1, 2008 at 7:40 PM, Brian Ray <bray at sent.com> wrote:

>
> On Dec 1, 2008, at 12:50 PM, Massimo Di Pierro wrote:
>
>  classes are over. It seems I will be able to make it to the last meeting
>> of the year. What's on the agenda? The web site says TDB.
>>
>
>
> I wonder if someone who is very diplomatic and truly fair would be willing
> to do a Ruby / Python language comparison?
>
> Brian Ray
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Chicago mailing list
> Chicago at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>
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From bray at sent.com  Tue Dec  2 05:18:04 2008
From: bray at sent.com (Brian Ray)
Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2008 22:18:04 -0600
Subject: [Chicago] next meeting: Ruby/Python Language Comparison?
In-Reply-To: <b7391af90812011929w2cdd9c9dg80fca02107562c9e@mail.gmail.com>
References: <b7391af90812011929w2cdd9c9dg80fca02107562c9e@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <F22F22BB-D33F-46A6-BF54-3B11FE8D359F@sent.com>


On Dec 1, 2008, at 9:29 PM, Sean Corbett wrote:

> Any interest in bringing the two Chicago language user groups  
> together for a comparison?
>

I was not considering that.   I wanted only *one* of the presentations  
to be roughly comparing Ruby. And want it to be done by someone who  
can be very professional. It is not like I flame war would not be fun,  
it is just not what I want this time. We could dedicate some other  
month meeting to a real slap down.... later.

We have a pretty strong following right not by those using Python for  
some things where they will never have the opportunity nor desire to  
look at other languages. We need to have the other two or so ChiPy  
Presentation cover those interests. The other topics would probably be  
very different. Not really that language specific, but more focused on  
a particular Python project.

Sean, are you offering to present? Are you an un-biased authority on  
both languages? Someone who can show the good sides of both without  
getting carried away? This is what I am looking for. Anyone else?  
Bueller  ? Bueller  ?	

-- Brian Ray




From beau at open-source-staffing.com  Tue Dec  2 06:40:56 2008
From: beau at open-source-staffing.com (Beau Gould)
Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2008 00:40:56 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] [JOB] Trading Engine Developer, Chicago
Message-ID: <0EF2AF2FE7114ABE868928BE6A801738@EMACHINE>

Job Title: Trading Engine Developer (1-3 years experience) 
Location: Chicago, IL - Relocation assistance provided for qualified
candidates 
Duration: Full Time/Permanent 
Salary: 70-90k (more for top-notch candidates) 

Our client is a diversified financial institution specializing in
proprietary trading, asset management, order execution services, and
technology solutions. They are recognized as a market leader in
derivatives valuation, trading, and value-added order execution across
global equity, options, and futures markets. With a focus on innovation,
achievement, and integrity, they take pride in serving the interests of
both their clients and colleagues.

You will build custom electronic trading applications for a leader in
the industry, work with a team of top technology professionals, interact
with senior partners and traders, and maintain the systems that you
design, build, test and deploy

Financial experience preferred, but not required.

RESPONSIBILITIES 
* Perform full life-cycle development of trading applications using C++,
C#, Python, SQL, and other languages 
* Work with traders to determine application requirements 
* Integrate custom systems with trading exchanges and market data
vendors 
* Support and maintain software 

QUALIFICATIONS 
* More than 2 years of programming experience 
* Bachelor's degree in computer science or engineering 
* History of academic excellence, with a minimum 3.0 GPA 
* Solid understanding of object-oriented design and development 
* Experience with some combination of C++, C#, Python, SQL, XML 
* Excellent problem solving skills 
* Desire to work in a team environment 
* Interest in financial markets 

To be considered, please submit your resume and salary requirements to
bg @ capitalmarketsp.com

Thank you, 

Beau Gould 
Executive Advisor 
Capital Markets Placement 
www.cmp.jobs 
bg @ capitalmarketsp.com 


From jcroneme at thoughtworks.com  Tue Dec  2 18:57:02 2008
From: jcroneme at thoughtworks.com (Josh Cronemeyer)
Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2008 11:57:02 -0600
Subject: [Chicago] Dec. meeting RSVPs - or - how to beat the security ninjas
Message-ID: <OF39B7DF20.B7D1F91B-ON86257513.0060F251-86257513.0062E181@thoughtworks.com>

Hey gang, here's the deal.  The AON building, where the december meeting 
will be, has a crack team of security ninjas.  In order to thwart their 
plot to keep you all out of the meeting we need to get a list of names 
enumerating all the attendees of the next meeting.  So, if you are coming 
or considering coming, please send me an email with your first and last 
name, and your favorite monty python quote.  People who's names aren't on 
the list will still be able to get in, but it will take you longer because 
the ninjas have to call me and wait around while I put your name into the 
computer.

PEACE!
Josh Cronemeyer
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From hamcferron at yahoo.com  Tue Dec  2 19:20:17 2008
From: hamcferron at yahoo.com (Alex McFerron)
Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2008 10:20:17 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Chicago] Details on the meeting?
In-Reply-To: <OF39B7DF20.B7D1F91B-ON86257513.0060F251-86257513.0062E181@thoughtworks.com>
Message-ID: <109500.37094.qm@web81101.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

I'm a little confused about where and when the meeting is:


1. Location: Aon Thoughtworks office Chicago, 25th floor, 200 E. Randolph?

2. Date: 12/11

3. Time? 

Thanks,
alex 



 

From brian.james.fox at gmail.com  Tue Dec  2 19:30:44 2008
From: brian.james.fox at gmail.com (Brian Fox)
Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2008 12:30:44 -0600
Subject: [Chicago] Dec. meeting RSVPs - or - how to beat the security
	ninjas
In-Reply-To: <OF39B7DF20.B7D1F91B-ON86257513.0060F251-86257513.0062E181@thoughtworks.com>
References: <OF39B7DF20.B7D1F91B-ON86257513.0060F251-86257513.0062E181@thoughtworks.com>
Message-ID: <13c49eee0812021030i1fbbe8a4v2c345c5f00ae070f@mail.gmail.com>

Josh,

I plan on coming to the December meeting.  My favorite Monty Python Quote is
"Tis but a flesh wound."


Brian J. Fox
brianjfox at alumni.uiowa.edu


On Tue, Dec 2, 2008 at 11:57 AM, Josh Cronemeyer
<jcroneme at thoughtworks.com>wrote:

>
> Hey gang, here's the deal.  The AON building, where the december meeting
> will be, has a crack team of security ninjas.  In order to thwart their plot
> to keep you all out of the meeting we need to get a list of names
> enumerating all the attendees of the next meeting.  So, if you are coming or
> considering coming, please send me an email with your first and last name,
> and your favorite monty python quote.  People who's names aren't on the list
> will still be able to get in, but it will take you longer because the ninjas
> have to call me and wait around while I put your name into the computer.
>
> PEACE!
> Josh Cronemeyer
> _______________________________________________
> Chicago mailing list
> Chicago at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>
>
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From orblivion at gmail.com  Tue Dec  2 20:04:37 2008
From: orblivion at gmail.com (Dan Krol)
Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2008 13:04:37 -0600
Subject: [Chicago] Dec. meeting RSVPs - or - how to beat the security
	ninjas
In-Reply-To: <13c49eee0812021030i1fbbe8a4v2c345c5f00ae070f@mail.gmail.com>
References: <OF39B7DF20.B7D1F91B-ON86257513.0060F251-86257513.0062E181@thoughtworks.com>
	<13c49eee0812021030i1fbbe8a4v2c345c5f00ae070f@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <94e10adf0812021104h54e64e6cma84604383bba0428@mail.gmail.com>

How can you thwart a ninja? I guess I'm a little confused about this.

Any case:

Daniel Krol

"""
It isn't just say 'no it isn't'.
Yes it is.
No it isn't!
"""

On Tue, Dec 2, 2008 at 12:30 PM, Brian Fox <brian.james.fox at gmail.com> wrote:
> Josh,
>
> I plan on coming to the December meeting.  My favorite Monty Python Quote is
> "Tis but a flesh wound."
>
>
> Brian J. Fox
> brianjfox at alumni.uiowa.edu
>
>
> On Tue, Dec 2, 2008 at 11:57 AM, Josh Cronemeyer <jcroneme at thoughtworks.com>
> wrote:
>>
>> Hey gang, here's the deal.  The AON building, where the december meeting
>> will be, has a crack team of security ninjas.  In order to thwart their plot
>> to keep you all out of the meeting we need to get a list of names
>> enumerating all the attendees of the next meeting.  So, if you are coming or
>> considering coming, please send me an email with your first and last name,
>> and your favorite monty python quote.  People who's names aren't on the list
>> will still be able to get in, but it will take you longer because the ninjas
>> have to call me and wait around while I put your name into the computer.
>>
>> PEACE!
>> Josh Cronemeyer
>> _______________________________________________
>> Chicago mailing list
>> Chicago at python.org
>> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Chicago mailing list
> Chicago at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>
>

From brian.james.fox at gmail.com  Tue Dec  2 20:06:51 2008
From: brian.james.fox at gmail.com (Brian Fox)
Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2008 13:06:51 -0600
Subject: [Chicago] Dec. meeting RSVPs - or - how to beat the security
	ninjas
In-Reply-To: <13c49eee0812021030i1fbbe8a4v2c345c5f00ae070f@mail.gmail.com>
References: <OF39B7DF20.B7D1F91B-ON86257513.0060F251-86257513.0062E181@thoughtworks.com>
	<13c49eee0812021030i1fbbe8a4v2c345c5f00ae070f@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <13c49eee0812021106y76b5e56eqaaf8af47695c93@mail.gmail.com>

Sorry didn't mean to send this to the list.

Brian J. Fox


On Tue, Dec 2, 2008 at 12:30 PM, Brian Fox <brian.james.fox at gmail.com>wrote:

> Josh,
>
> I plan on coming to the December meeting.  My favorite Monty Python Quote
> is "Tis but a flesh wound."
>
>
> Brian J. Fox
> brianjfox at alumni.uiowa.edu
>
>
> On Tue, Dec 2, 2008 at 11:57 AM, Josh Cronemeyer <
> jcroneme at thoughtworks.com> wrote:
>
>>
>> Hey gang, here's the deal.  The AON building, where the december meeting
>> will be, has a crack team of security ninjas.  In order to thwart their plot
>> to keep you all out of the meeting we need to get a list of names
>> enumerating all the attendees of the next meeting.  So, if you are coming or
>> considering coming, please send me an email with your first and last name,
>> and your favorite monty python quote.  People who's names aren't on the list
>> will still be able to get in, but it will take you longer because the ninjas
>> have to call me and wait around while I put your name into the computer.
>>
>> PEACE!
>> Josh Cronemeyer
>> _______________________________________________
>> Chicago mailing list
>> Chicago at python.org
>> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>>
>>
>
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From orblivion at gmail.com  Tue Dec  2 20:08:13 2008
From: orblivion at gmail.com (Dan Krol)
Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2008 13:08:13 -0600
Subject: [Chicago] Dec. meeting RSVPs - or - how to beat the security
	ninjas
In-Reply-To: <13c49eee0812021106y76b5e56eqaaf8af47695c93@mail.gmail.com>
References: <OF39B7DF20.B7D1F91B-ON86257513.0060F251-86257513.0062E181@thoughtworks.com>
	<13c49eee0812021030i1fbbe8a4v2c345c5f00ae070f@mail.gmail.com>
	<13c49eee0812021106y76b5e56eqaaf8af47695c93@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <94e10adf0812021108j197846fdje70ab0d72917c691@mail.gmail.com>

Oh, I guess I shouldn't have either, sorry.

On Tue, Dec 2, 2008 at 1:06 PM, Brian Fox <brian.james.fox at gmail.com> wrote:
> Sorry didn't mean to send this to the list.
>
> Brian J. Fox
>
>
> On Tue, Dec 2, 2008 at 12:30 PM, Brian Fox <brian.james.fox at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>>
>> Josh,
>>
>> I plan on coming to the December meeting.  My favorite Monty Python Quote
>> is "Tis but a flesh wound."
>>
>>
>> Brian J. Fox
>> brianjfox at alumni.uiowa.edu
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Dec 2, 2008 at 11:57 AM, Josh Cronemeyer
>> <jcroneme at thoughtworks.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> Hey gang, here's the deal.  The AON building, where the december meeting
>>> will be, has a crack team of security ninjas.  In order to thwart their plot
>>> to keep you all out of the meeting we need to get a list of names
>>> enumerating all the attendees of the next meeting.  So, if you are coming or
>>> considering coming, please send me an email with your first and last name,
>>> and your favorite monty python quote.  People who's names aren't on the list
>>> will still be able to get in, but it will take you longer because the ninjas
>>> have to call me and wait around while I put your name into the computer.
>>>
>>> PEACE!
>>> Josh Cronemeyer
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Chicago mailing list
>>> Chicago at python.org
>>> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>>>
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Chicago mailing list
> Chicago at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>
>

From mtobis at gmail.com  Tue Dec  2 20:15:39 2008
From: mtobis at gmail.com (Michael Tobis)
Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2008 13:15:39 -0600
Subject: [Chicago] Dec. meeting RSVPs - or - how to beat the security
	ninjas
In-Reply-To: <94e10adf0812021108j197846fdje70ab0d72917c691@mail.gmail.com>
References: <OF39B7DF20.B7D1F91B-ON86257513.0060F251-86257513.0062E181@thoughtworks.com>
	<13c49eee0812021030i1fbbe8a4v2c345c5f00ae070f@mail.gmail.com>
	<13c49eee0812021106y76b5e56eqaaf8af47695c93@mail.gmail.com>
	<94e10adf0812021108j197846fdje70ab0d72917c691@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <c3aa55550812021115r6067b00t75c6c6a8034779da@mail.gmail.com>

Why should I be tied to the epithet 'loony' merely because I have a
pet 'alibut? I hear tell that sir Gerald Nabarro has a pet prawn and
you wouldn't call him a loony, now would you?

Sorry, I cannot attend.

mt

From jcroneme at thoughtworks.com  Tue Dec  2 21:37:50 2008
From: jcroneme at thoughtworks.com (Josh Cronemeyer)
Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2008 14:37:50 -0600
Subject: [Chicago] Dec. meeting RSVPs - or - how to beat the
	security	ninjas
In-Reply-To: <94e10adf0812021104h54e64e6cma84604383bba0428@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <OF435443A5.D20BEF02-ON86257513.0069C3A9-86257513.00719AC7@thoughtworks.com>

> How can you thwart a ninja? I guess I'm a little confused about this.

The AON security ninjas... Should I start from the beginning?  Yes? Ok. It 
is a looong story about ancient Japan.  Two warring feudal lords loved the 
same woman, Iwasaki. Both lords tried to win Iwasaki over with the 
traditional Japaneese gift of love: wooden clogs inlaid with a jade hello 
kitty.  Then on the day Iwasaki was to choose which lord to marry she died 
tragically of a hangnail caused by poorly fitted clogs.  Each of the lords 
blamed the other for her death and the bitter conflict that ensued 
instigated centuries of assasination and espionage. Long after both sides 
of the conflict were all killed the clans of ninjas that were involved, 
known as the Iwasaki ninjas, swore their allegiance to Iwasaki's family. 
That family became wealthy and powerful, but during the 19th century the 
head of the Iwasaki family lost an epic game of flip cup to John D. 
Rockefeller.  The dishonor was so great that afterwards the allegiance of 
the Iwasaki ninjas transferred to Rockefeller.  The ninjas lived secretly 
in Rockefeller's mansion until Rockefeller's death.  In need of a place to 
live, they took over the newly constructed Standard Oil building here in 
Chicago.  They assumed responsibility for building security.  Forty years 
later their only allegiance is to the building and their union, the Local 
Ninjitsu 393.  When you arrive on Thursday, pay attention to the dozens of 
large gongs that line the walls.  Each gong represents a generation of 
Iwasaki ninjas.  DO NOT TOUCH THE GONGS.  A member of the Ruby User Group 
once rang a gong and he swallowed his own tounge under mysterious 
circumstances while giving a talk about ActiveRecord.  Detectives later 
found that one of his notecards had been altered to say:

I need not your needles, they're needless to me;
For kneading of noodles, 'twere needless, you see;
But did my neat knickers but need to be kneed,
I then should have need of your ninjas indeed.

Frankly I wondered what he was talking about, but apparently that is the 
most deadly tongue twister known to man.  Since that day the poor fellow 
has been known in the ruby community as "Because, the unlucky stiff".

Sorry for rambling...  You asked how to thwart a ninja, didn't you?  That 
is easy. You just give me your name on this mailing list and I'll add you 
to the international "I'm Down With The Ninjas" database. 

Ask me anything.  I've got an answer ;)

PEACE!
Josh Cronemeyer
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From jcroneme at thoughtworks.com  Tue Dec  2 22:23:02 2008
From: jcroneme at thoughtworks.com (Josh Cronemeyer)
Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2008 15:23:02 -0600
Subject: [Chicago] Details on the meeting?
In-Reply-To: <109500.37094.qm@web81101.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <OFB46BF931.464FB74F-ON86257513.00755774-86257513.0075BE69@thoughtworks.com>

All the info is here: http://chipy.org/#id1

PEACE!
Josh Cronemeyer



Alex McFerron <hamcferron at yahoo.com> 
Sent by: chicago-bounces+jcroneme=thoughtworks.com at python.org
12/02/08 12:20 PM
Please respond to
The Chicago Python Users Group <chicago at python.org>


To
chicago at python.org
cc

Subject
Re: [Chicago] Details on the meeting?






I'm a little confused about where and when the meeting is:


1. Location: Aon Thoughtworks office Chicago, 25th floor, 200 E. Randolph?

2. Date: 12/11

3. Time? 

Thanks,
alex 



 
_______________________________________________
Chicago mailing list
Chicago at python.org
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago

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From hamcferron at yahoo.com  Tue Dec  2 23:09:06 2008
From: hamcferron at yahoo.com (Alex McFerron)
Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2008 14:09:06 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Chicago] Details on the meeting?
In-Reply-To: <OFB46BF931.464FB74F-ON86257513.00755774-86257513.0075BE69@thoughtworks.com>
Message-ID: <387324.45123.qm@web81106.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

thanks


--- On Tue, 12/2/08, Josh Cronemeyer <jcroneme at thoughtworks.com> wrote:

> From: Josh Cronemeyer <jcroneme at thoughtworks.com>
> Subject: Re: [Chicago] Details on the meeting?
> To: "The Chicago Python Users Group" <chicago at python.org>
> Date: Tuesday, December 2, 2008, 3:23 PM
> All the info is here: http://chipy.org/#id1
> 
> PEACE!
> Josh Cronemeyer
> 
> 
> 
> Alex McFerron <hamcferron at yahoo.com> 
> Sent by:
> chicago-bounces+jcroneme=thoughtworks.com at python.org
> 12/02/08 12:20 PM
> Please respond to
> The Chicago Python Users Group <chicago at python.org>
> 
> 
> To
> chicago at python.org
> cc
> 
> Subject
> Re: [Chicago] Details on the meeting?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'm a little confused about where and when the meeting
> is:
> 
> 
> 1. Location: Aon Thoughtworks office Chicago, 25th floor,
> 200 E. Randolph?
> 
> 2. Date: 12/11
> 
> 3. Time? 
> 
> Thanks,
> alex 
> 
> 
> 
>  
> _______________________________________________
> Chicago mailing list
> Chicago at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Chicago mailing list
> Chicago at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago

From david.durham.jr at gmail.com  Wed Dec  3 18:31:43 2008
From: david.durham.jr at gmail.com (David Durham, Jr.)
Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2008 11:31:43 -0600
Subject: [Chicago] Details on the meeting?
In-Reply-To: <OFB46BF931.464FB74F-ON86257513.00755774-86257513.0075BE69@thoughtworks.com>
References: <109500.37094.qm@web81101.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<OFB46BF931.464FB74F-ON86257513.00755774-86257513.0075BE69@thoughtworks.com>
Message-ID: <fdb5fda0812030931r7e40f816lc2ca25db1905606b@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Dec 2, 2008 at 3:23 PM, Josh Cronemeyer
<jcroneme at thoughtworks.com> wrote:
>
> All the info is here: http://chipy.org/#id1

And still no information on topics other than pizza which is probably
a good enough topic.

-Dave

From MDiPierro at cs.depaul.edu  Wed Dec  3 18:45:50 2008
From: MDiPierro at cs.depaul.edu (DiPierro, Massimo)
Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2008 11:45:50 -0600
Subject: [Chicago] Details on the meeting?
In-Reply-To: <fdb5fda0812030931r7e40f816lc2ca25db1905606b@mail.gmail.com>
References: <109500.37094.qm@web81101.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<OFB46BF931.464FB74F-ON86257513.00755774-86257513.0075BE69@thoughtworks.com>,
	<fdb5fda0812030931r7e40f816lc2ca25db1905606b@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <C1AA20CAC1E41647BFF1D41215EDD475808B315844@wagner.cti.depaul.edu>

Pizza is good enough for me.
If people want I can talk about T2 (http://mdp.cti.depaul.edu/examples/static/t2.pdf) or about the PyCon2009 registration built on T2, but I'd rather listen to other people talk.

Massimo

 
________________________________________
From: chicago-bounces+mdipierro=cs.depaul.edu at python.org [chicago-bounces+mdipierro=cs.depaul.edu at python.org] On Behalf Of David Durham, Jr. [david.durham.jr at gmail.com]
Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2008 11:31 AM
To: The Chicago Python Users Group
Subject: Re: [Chicago] Details on the meeting?

On Tue, Dec 2, 2008 at 3:23 PM, Josh Cronemeyer
<jcroneme at thoughtworks.com> wrote:
>
> All the info is here: http://chipy.org/#id1

And still no information on topics other than pizza which is probably
a good enough topic.

-Dave
_______________________________________________
Chicago mailing list
Chicago at python.org
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago

From bray at sent.com  Wed Dec  3 19:15:27 2008
From: bray at sent.com (Brian Ray)
Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2008 12:15:27 -0600
Subject: [Chicago] Details on the meeting?
In-Reply-To: <C1AA20CAC1E41647BFF1D41215EDD475808B315844@wagner.cti.depaul.edu>
References: <109500.37094.qm@web81101.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<OFB46BF931.464FB74F-ON86257513.00755774-86257513.0075BE69@thoughtworks.com>,
	<fdb5fda0812030931r7e40f816lc2ca25db1905606b@mail.gmail.com>
	<C1AA20CAC1E41647BFF1D41215EDD475808B315844@wagner.cti.depaul.edu>
Message-ID: <5C2C0695-E9C1-4E60-8ED5-977C096A0811@sent.com>


On Dec 3, 2008, at 11:45 AM, DiPierro, Massimo wrote:

> If people want I can talk about T2 (http://mdp.cti.depaul.edu/examples/static/t2.pdf 
> ) or about the PyCon2009 registration built on T2, but I'd rather  
> listen to other people talk.

Does anybody else have something interesting they are working on?

Garrett:  Are you still up for the DVCS talk you mentioned?


Brian Ray




From maney at two14.net  Wed Dec  3 20:14:35 2008
From: maney at two14.net (Martin Maney)
Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2008 13:14:35 -0600
Subject: [Chicago] Practical Programming book in beta uses Python
In-Reply-To: <fddded4b9a6ddc60cd0612d18fcbe95f@localhost.localdomain>
References: <fddded4b9a6ddc60cd0612d18fcbe95f@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <20081203191435.GC24312@furrr.two14.net>

News from the Pragmatic Ones.  Note that beta books are not any sort of
free, but I know there's interest in Python use in instruction
hereabouts.  Who knows, maybe they are free if you can email them on
letterhead or something.  :-)

On Wed, Dec 03, 2008 at 11:15:20AM -0500, Andy Hunt wrote:
> Now available in Beta, "Practical Programming: An Introduction to Computer 
> Science Using Python" is a great tool to teach real-world programming to 
> students and beginning programmers.
> 
> Computers are used in every part of science from ecology to particle 
> physics; this introduction to computer science continually reinforces those 
> ties by using real-world science problems as examples.  Anyone who has taken 
> a high school science class will be able to follow along as the book 
> introduces the basics of programming, then goes on to show readers how to 
> work with databases, download data from the web automatically, build 
> graphical interfaces, and most importantly, how to think like a professional 
> programmer. 
> 
> Topics covered include:
> 
> * Basic elements of programming from arithmetic to loops and if statements.
> * Using functions and modules to organize programs.
> * Using lists, sets, and dictionaries to organize data.
> * Designing algorithms systematically.
> * Debugging things when they go wrong.
> * Creating and querying databases.
> * Building graphical interfaces to make programs easier to use.
> * Object-oriented programming and programming patterns.
> 
> See http://pragprog.com/titles/gwpy for details or to order.

-- 
If you can't answer a man's arguments, all is not lost;
you can still call him vile names.
  -- Elbert Hubbard describes the internet, a century before it is invented


From jcroneme at thoughtworks.com  Wed Dec  3 20:27:09 2008
From: jcroneme at thoughtworks.com (Josh Cronemeyer)
Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2008 13:27:09 -0600
Subject: [Chicago] Details on the meeting?
In-Reply-To: <5C2C0695-E9C1-4E60-8ED5-977C096A0811@sent.com>
Message-ID: <OFA1458524.E9A98ECB-ON86257514.006AA5B2-86257514.006B238D@thoughtworks.com>

I'm not good at presenting and I'm completely new to python, but I've been 
working on a project using app engine that i could talk about if we are 
strapped for presenters.  Clearly this would be fodder for the hecklers in 
the group.

PEACE!
Josh Cronemeyer



Brian Ray <bray at sent.com> 
Sent by: chicago-bounces+jcroneme=thoughtworks.com at python.org
12/03/08 12:15 PM
Please respond to
The Chicago Python Users Group <chicago at python.org>


To
The Chicago Python Users Group <chicago at python.org>, Garrett Smith 
<g at rrett.us.com>
cc

Subject
Re: [Chicago] Details on the meeting?







On Dec 3, 2008, at 11:45 AM, DiPierro, Massimo wrote:

> If people want I can talk about T2 (
http://mdp.cti.depaul.edu/examples/static/t2.pdf 
> ) or about the PyCon2009 registration built on T2, but I'd rather 
> listen to other people talk.

Does anybody else have something interesting they are working on?

Garrett:  Are you still up for the DVCS talk you mentioned?


Brian Ray



_______________________________________________
Chicago mailing list
Chicago at python.org
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago

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From g at rrett.us.com  Wed Dec  3 21:31:25 2008
From: g at rrett.us.com (Garrett Smith)
Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2008 14:31:25 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [Chicago] Details on the meeting?
In-Reply-To: <5C2C0695-E9C1-4E60-8ED5-977C096A0811@sent.com>
Message-ID: <78702036.9960911228336285384.JavaMail.root@mail-3.01.com>

Definitely! Count me in for that topic.


----- "Brian Ray" <bray at sent.com> wrote:

> Does anybody else have something interesting they are working on?
> 
> Garrett:  Are you still up for the DVCS talk you mentioned?
> 
> 
> Brian Ray

From g at rrett.us.com  Wed Dec  3 21:33:08 2008
From: g at rrett.us.com (Garrett Smith)
Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2008 14:33:08 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [Chicago] Details on the meeting?
In-Reply-To: <OFA1458524.E9A98ECB-ON86257514.006AA5B2-86257514.006B238D@thoughtworks.com>
Message-ID: <235812698.9961781228336388353.JavaMail.root@mail-3.01.com>

I'm pretty that's one of the requirements for presenting at Chipy. Brian? Chris?


----- "Josh Cronemeyer" <jcroneme at thoughtworks.com> wrote: 
> 
> I'm not good at presenting 

From carl at personnelware.com  Wed Dec  3 21:51:03 2008
From: carl at personnelware.com (Carl Karsten)
Date: Wed, 03 Dec 2008 14:51:03 -0600
Subject: [Chicago] Details on the meeting?
In-Reply-To: <235812698.9961781228336388353.JavaMail.root@mail-3.01.com>
References: <235812698.9961781228336388353.JavaMail.root@mail-3.01.com>
Message-ID: <4936F137.30001@personnelware.com>

I !<3 pronouns.

Pretty sure Garrett's use of "that" refers to "not good at presenting" not just
"good at presenting."  Pretty much, If you can just babble for 20 min and use
the word python a few times, you are in.

Garrett Smith wrote:
> I'm pretty that's one of the requirements for presenting at Chipy. Brian? Chris?
> 
> 
> ----- "Josh Cronemeyer" <jcroneme at thoughtworks.com> wrote: 
>> I'm not good at presenting 
> _______________________________________________
> Chicago mailing list
> Chicago at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
> 
> 

From hsu.feihong at yahoo.com  Wed Dec  3 22:24:08 2008
From: hsu.feihong at yahoo.com (Feihong Hsu)
Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2008 13:24:08 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Chicago] Details on the meeting?
In-Reply-To: <4936F137.30001@personnelware.com>
Message-ID: <940821.20013.qm@web34804.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

I, for one, always make sure to leave my presentation skills at home when I go to ChiPy.


--- On Wed, 12/3/08, Carl Karsten <carl at personnelware.com> wrote:
From: Carl Karsten <carl at personnelware.com>
Subject: Re: [Chicago] Details on the meeting?
To: "The Chicago Python Users Group" <chicago at python.org>
Date: Wednesday, December 3, 2008, 2:51 PM

I !<3 pronouns.

Pretty sure Garrett's use of "that" refers to "not good at
presenting" not just
"good at presenting."  Pretty much, If you can just babble for 20 min
and use
the word python a few times, you are in.

Garrett Smith wrote:
> I'm pretty that's one of the requirements for presenting at Chipy.
Brian? Chris?
> 
> 
> ----- "Josh Cronemeyer" <jcroneme at thoughtworks.com> wrote:

>> I'm not good at presenting 
> _______________________________________________
> Chicago mailing list
> Chicago at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
> 
> 
_______________________________________________
Chicago mailing list
Chicago at python.org
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago



      
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From bray at sent.com  Wed Dec  3 22:29:54 2008
From: bray at sent.com (Brian Ray)
Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2008 15:29:54 -0600
Subject: [Chicago] Details on the meeting?
In-Reply-To: <OFA1458524.E9A98ECB-ON86257514.006AA5B2-86257514.006B238D@thoughtworks.com>
References: <OFA1458524.E9A98ECB-ON86257514.006AA5B2-86257514.006B238D@thoughtworks.com>
Message-ID: <EAD43EE4-427D-4A49-A1CA-09304AAD5562@sent.com>


On Dec 3, 2008, at 1:27 PM, Josh Cronemeyer wrote:

> I'm not good at presenting and I'm completely new to python, but  
> I've been working on a project using app engine that i could talk  
> about if we are strapped for presenters.  Clearly this would be  
> fodder for the hecklers in the group.


I think for awhile we tried to have three tiers of presentations:  
novice, advanced, and elite.

IMHO, It would be nice if you could present on AppEngine.

Brian Ray




From jcroneme at thoughtworks.com  Wed Dec  3 22:42:16 2008
From: jcroneme at thoughtworks.com (Josh Cronemeyer)
Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2008 15:42:16 -0600
Subject: [Chicago] Details on the meeting?
In-Reply-To: <EAD43EE4-427D-4A49-A1CA-09304AAD5562@sent.com>
Message-ID: <OFF31AAEAA.1576D8CA-ON86257514.00770DFA-86257514.00778237@thoughtworks.com>

With 3 presentations already lined up won't the meeting run too long if we 
add a 4th?

PEACE!
Josh Cronemeyer



Brian Ray <bray at sent.com> 
Sent by: chicago-bounces+jcroneme=thoughtworks.com at python.org
12/03/08 03:29 PM
Please respond to
The Chicago Python Users Group <chicago at python.org>


To
The Chicago Python Users Group <chicago at python.org>
cc

Subject
Re: [Chicago] Details on the meeting?







On Dec 3, 2008, at 1:27 PM, Josh Cronemeyer wrote:

> I'm not good at presenting and I'm completely new to python, but 
> I've been working on a project using app engine that i could talk 
> about if we are strapped for presenters.  Clearly this would be 
> fodder for the hecklers in the group.


I think for awhile we tried to have three tiers of presentations: 
novice, advanced, and elite.

IMHO, It would be nice if you could present on AppEngine.

Brian Ray



_______________________________________________
Chicago mailing list
Chicago at python.org
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago

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From g at rrett.us.com  Wed Dec  3 23:13:59 2008
From: g at rrett.us.com (Garrett Smith)
Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2008 16:13:59 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [Chicago] Details on the meeting?
In-Reply-To: <4936F137.30001@personnelware.com>
Message-ID: <89725014.10011611228342439709.JavaMail.root@mail-3.01.com>

Sigh. A non-human parser would know what I was trying to say.

Just to clarify...

It is a requirement that one have presentation skills to present at Chipy.

Wait....no, I mean NOT have.

Dammit, where was I? Um...


----- "Carl Karsten" <carl at personnelware.com> wrote:

> I !<3 pronouns.
> 
> Pretty sure Garrett's use of "that" refers to "not good at presenting"
> not just
> "good at presenting."  Pretty much, If you can just babble for 20 min
> and use
> the word python a few times, you are in.
> 
> Garrett Smith wrote:
> > I'm pretty that's one of the requirements for presenting at Chipy.
> Brian? Chris?
> > 
> > 
> > ----- "Josh Cronemeyer" <jcroneme at thoughtworks.com> wrote: 
> >> I'm not good at presenting 
> > _______________________________________________
> > Chicago mailing list
> > Chicago at python.org
> > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
> > 
> > 
> _______________________________________________
> Chicago mailing list
> Chicago at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago

From bray at sent.com  Thu Dec  4 00:07:28 2008
From: bray at sent.com (Brian Ray)
Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2008 17:07:28 -0600
Subject: [Chicago] Details on the meeting?
In-Reply-To: <OFF31AAEAA.1576D8CA-ON86257514.00770DFA-86257514.00778237@thoughtworks.com>
References: <OFF31AAEAA.1576D8CA-ON86257514.00770DFA-86257514.00778237@thoughtworks.com>
Message-ID: <74789059-A5EE-4391-9249-509703DEFF9D@sent.com>


On Dec 3, 2008, at 3:42 PM, Josh Cronemeyer wrote:

>
> With 3 presentations already lined up won't the meeting run too long  
> if we add a 4th?

I think there are only 2 lined up:

         * Bazaar within Subversion, Personal Workflow - Garrett Smith
         * T2 (web2py tier two) - Massimo DiPierro


What is the third? Did I miss one?


Brian Ray




From cwebber at dustycloud.org  Wed Dec  3 17:09:14 2008
From: cwebber at dustycloud.org (Christopher Allan Webber)
Date: Wed, 03 Dec 2008 10:09:14 -0600
Subject: [Chicago] Dec. meeting RSVPs - or - how to beat the
	security	ninjas
In-Reply-To: <OF435443A5.D20BEF02-ON86257513.0069C3A9-86257513.00719AC7@thoughtworks.com>
	(Josh Cronemeyer's message of "Tue, 2 Dec 2008 14:37:50 -0600")
References: <OF435443A5.D20BEF02-ON86257513.0069C3A9-86257513.00719AC7@thoughtworks.com>
Message-ID: <87k5ahgs0l.fsf@dustycloud.org>

Hahahahaha

That's the funniest thing I've read on a mailing list for a while.

Josh Cronemeyer <jcroneme at thoughtworks.com> writes:

>> How can you thwart a ninja? I guess I'm a little confused about this.
>
> The AON security ninjas... Should I start from the beginning?  Yes? Ok. It is
> a looong story about ancient Japan.  Two warring feudal lords loved the same
> woman, Iwasaki. Both lords tried to win Iwasaki over with the traditional
> Japaneese gift of love: wooden clogs inlaid with a jade hello kitty.  Then on
> the day Iwasaki was to choose which lord to marry she died tragically of a
> hangnail caused by poorly fitted clogs.  Each of the lords blamed the other
> for her death and the bitter conflict that ensued instigated centuries of
> assasination and espionage. Long after both sides of the conflict were all
> killed the clans of ninjas that were involved, known as the Iwasaki ninjas,
> swore their allegiance to Iwasaki's family.  That family became wealthy and
> powerful, but during the 19th century the head of the Iwasaki family lost an
> epic game of flip cup to John D. Rockefeller.  The dishonor was so great that
> afterwards the allegiance of the Iwasaki ninjas transferred to Rockefeller.
>  The ninjas lived secretly in Rockefeller's mansion until Rockefeller's death.
>  In need of a place to live, they took over the newly constructed Standard Oil
> building here in Chicago.  They assumed responsibility for building security.
>  Forty years later their only allegiance is to the building and their union,
> the Local Ninjitsu 393.  When you arrive on Thursday, pay attention to the
> dozens of large gongs that line the walls.  Each gong represents a generation
> of Iwasaki ninjas.  DO NOT TOUCH THE GONGS.  A member of the Ruby User Group
> once rang a gong and he swallowed his own tounge under mysterious
> circumstances while giving a talk about ActiveRecord.  Detectives later found
> that one of his notecards had been altered to say:
>
> I need not your needles, they're needless to me;
> For kneading of noodles, 'twere needless, you see;
> But did my neat knickers but need to be kneed,
> I then should have need of your ninjas indeed.
>
> Frankly I wondered what he was talking about, but apparently that is the most
> deadly tongue twister known to man.  Since that day the poor fellow has been
> known in the ruby community as "Because, the unlucky stiff".
>
> Sorry for rambling...  You asked how to thwart a ninja, didn't you?  That is
> easy. You just give me your name on this mailing list and I'll add you to the
> international "I'm Down With The Ninjas" database.  
>
> Ask me anything.  I've got an answer ;)
>
> PEACE!
> Josh Cronemeyer
>
> _______________________________________________
> Chicago mailing list
> Chicago at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago

From fasteliteprogrammer at yahoo.com  Thu Dec  4 06:46:18 2008
From: fasteliteprogrammer at yahoo.com (Craig Petty)
Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2008 21:46:18 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Chicago] python 3.0 hep
Message-ID: <199495.13014.qm@web36504.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Does anyone know how to install python-3.0 and python 2.6 on fedora 10?


      

From dgriff1 at gmail.com  Thu Dec  4 14:59:50 2008
From: dgriff1 at gmail.com (Daniel Griffin)
Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2008 07:59:50 -0600
Subject: [Chicago] python 3.0 hep
In-Reply-To: <199495.13014.qm@web36504.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <199495.13014.qm@web36504.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <3db160680812040559w510a8960te0ecd4eb4462fe1e@mail.gmail.com>

Download from the python site and build from source?

On Wed, Dec 3, 2008 at 11:46 PM, Craig Petty
<fasteliteprogrammer at yahoo.com>wrote:

> Does anyone know how to install python-3.0 and python 2.6 on fedora 10?
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Chicago mailing list
> Chicago at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>
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From fasteliteprogrammer at yahoo.com  Thu Dec  4 15:50:49 2008
From: fasteliteprogrammer at yahoo.com (Craig Petty)
Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2008 06:50:49 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Chicago] python 3.0 hep
In-Reply-To: <3db160680812040559w510a8960te0ecd4eb4462fe1e@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <752841.64213.qm@web36503.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

I build it from sources and i go this


bsddb tkinter sunaudiodev


I did this ./configure  --prefix=/usr/local and i did a make altinstall

Did i  get python 2.6 on my laptop the right way i know i didn't overwrite it.


--- On Thu, 12/4/08, Daniel Griffin <dgriff1 at gmail.com> wrote:

> From: Daniel Griffin <dgriff1 at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [Chicago] python 3.0 hep
> To: fasteliteprogrammer at yahoo.com, "The Chicago Python Users Group" <chicago at python.org>
> Date: Thursday, December 4, 2008, 7:59 AM
> Download from the python site and build from source?
> 
> On Wed, Dec 3, 2008 at 11:46 PM, Craig Petty
> <fasteliteprogrammer at yahoo.com>wrote:
> 
> > Does anyone know how to install python-3.0 and python
> 2.6 on fedora 10?
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Chicago mailing list
> > Chicago at python.org
> > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
> >


      

From jcroneme at thoughtworks.com  Thu Dec  4 16:21:43 2008
From: jcroneme at thoughtworks.com (Josh Cronemeyer)
Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2008 09:21:43 -0600
Subject: [Chicago] Details on the meeting?
In-Reply-To: <74789059-A5EE-4391-9249-509703DEFF9D@sent.com>
Message-ID: <OFB999C9FB.5C27DA65-ON86257515.0052C059-86257515.0054AC3E@thoughtworks.com>

Ah.  Right.  2, not 3.  Along with my lack of presentation skills I have a 
problem with counting... :(  Anyway, I'm happy to give the talk. 

Since Google has a pretty good tutorial for getting started with app 
engine I'll just gloss over the introductory material and focus on areas 
of app engine that aren't covered by the tutorial: testing, full text 
search (undocumented), indexes and general specialness in big table. 
Disclaimer: I've been working with python and app engine for only a few 
weeks.  I've learned things about app engine worth sharing, so I won't 
waste your time, but I'm still pretty fresh so set your expectations 
accordingly and come prepared to correct, educate, heckle, and generally 
make me sorry I volunteered to speak. ;)

PEACE!
Josh Cronemeyer



Brian Ray <bray at sent.com> 
Sent by: chicago-bounces+jcroneme=thoughtworks.com at python.org
12/03/08 05:07 PM
Please respond to
The Chicago Python Users Group <chicago at python.org>


To
The Chicago Python Users Group <chicago at python.org>
cc

Subject
Re: [Chicago] Details on the meeting?







On Dec 3, 2008, at 3:42 PM, Josh Cronemeyer wrote:

>
> With 3 presentations already lined up won't the meeting run too long 
> if we add a 4th?

I think there are only 2 lined up:

         * Bazaar within Subversion, Personal Workflow - Garrett Smith
         * T2 (web2py tier two) - Massimo DiPierro


What is the third? Did I miss one?


Brian Ray



_______________________________________________
Chicago mailing list
Chicago at python.org
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago

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From bray at sent.com  Thu Dec  4 17:13:27 2008
From: bray at sent.com (Brian Ray)
Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2008 10:13:27 -0600
Subject: [Chicago] Details on the meeting?
In-Reply-To: <OFB999C9FB.5C27DA65-ON86257515.0052C059-86257515.0054AC3E@thoughtworks.com>
References: <OFB999C9FB.5C27DA65-ON86257515.0052C059-86257515.0054AC3E@thoughtworks.com>
Message-ID: <1137B833-732C-4A21-8EEA-B54F5B8CA37A@sent.com>


On Dec 4, 2008, at 9:21 AM, Josh Cronemeyer wrote:

> Ah.  Right.  2, not 3.  Along with my lack of presentation skills I  
> have a problem with counting... :(  Anyway, I'm happy to give the  
> talk.


Great. I added "        * Beginning Python with AppEngine - Josh  
Cronemeyer " to the agenda.

That pretty much sorts out the agenda for our next meeting. Yay!  A  
week in advance!  This must be a first. A sure sign that this will be  
our best meeting ever.... wow!

Presenters: Shoot to make your presentations last about 25-30 minutes-- 
or you will get the hook despite your brilliance and good looks. Try  
to mix theory with some code examples and/or demonstrations.

I will send out the official notice early next week. It will include  
RSVP instructions. Meahwhile, email <jcroneme at thoughtworks.com> with  
your first and last name even if there is even the slightest chance  
you will be attending.

Brian Ray


PS We do have a nice venue for next month lined up. I will talk about  
this and the Py3K focused agenda at the meeting.


From pfein at pobox.com  Thu Dec  4 17:16:25 2008
From: pfein at pobox.com (Pete)
Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2008 10:16:25 -0600
Subject: [Chicago] python 3.0 hep
In-Reply-To: <752841.64213.qm@web36503.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <752841.64213.qm@web36503.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <3E33C2B3-A04E-4056-A511-66EC055E6D7F@pobox.com>


On Dec 4, 2008, at 8:50 AM, Craig Petty wrote:
> Did i  get python 2.6 on my laptop the right way i know i didn't  
> overwrite it.

How the heck are we supposed to know?  It's your laptop.

Seriously, part of being a programmer is "try it & see if it works".   
Try it.

From mtobis at gmail.com  Thu Dec  4 18:42:48 2008
From: mtobis at gmail.com (Michael Tobis)
Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2008 11:42:48 -0600
Subject: [Chicago] python 3.0 hep
In-Reply-To: <3E33C2B3-A04E-4056-A511-66EC055E6D7F@pobox.com>
References: <752841.64213.qm@web36503.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<3E33C2B3-A04E-4056-A511-66EC055E6D7F@pobox.com>
Message-ID: <c3aa55550812040942u62bd5a98la2685938c0ac9c28@mail.gmail.com>

Not that this isn't pragmatically good advice, but didn't I just hear
the ghost of Edsger Dijkstra moaning in Dutch somewhere in the
distance?

mt

On 12/4/08, Pete <pfein at pobox.com> wrote:

>  Seriously, part of being a programmer is "try it & see if it works".  Try
> it.

From pfein at pobox.com  Thu Dec  4 19:43:58 2008
From: pfein at pobox.com (Pete)
Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2008 12:43:58 -0600
Subject: [Chicago] python 3.0 hep
In-Reply-To: <c3aa55550812040942u62bd5a98la2685938c0ac9c28@mail.gmail.com>
References: <752841.64213.qm@web36503.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<3E33C2B3-A04E-4056-A511-66EC055E6D7F@pobox.com>
	<c3aa55550812040942u62bd5a98la2685938c0ac9c28@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <FEBB77B2-520F-49D1-ABBB-B1F8618BC039@pobox.com>

Note I said "programmer", not "computer scientist".

On Dec 4, 2008, at 11:42 AM, Michael Tobis wrote:

> Not that this isn't pragmatically good advice, but didn't I just hear
> the ghost of Edsger Dijkstra moaning in Dutch somewhere in the
> distance?
>
> mt
>
> On 12/4/08, Pete <pfein at pobox.com> wrote:
>
>> Seriously, part of being a programmer is "try it & see if it  
>> works".  Try
>> it.
> _______________________________________________
> Chicago mailing list
> Chicago at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago


From brian.james.fox at gmail.com  Thu Dec  4 19:50:00 2008
From: brian.james.fox at gmail.com (Brian Fox)
Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2008 12:50:00 -0600
Subject: [Chicago] python 3.0 hep
In-Reply-To: <FEBB77B2-520F-49D1-ABBB-B1F8618BC039@pobox.com>
References: <752841.64213.qm@web36503.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<3E33C2B3-A04E-4056-A511-66EC055E6D7F@pobox.com>
	<c3aa55550812040942u62bd5a98la2685938c0ac9c28@mail.gmail.com>
	<FEBB77B2-520F-49D1-ABBB-B1F8618BC039@pobox.com>
Message-ID: <13c49eee0812041050s1f7f2c00q7372d3de2719f789@mail.gmail.com>

Ouch that stings

Brian J. Fox


On Thu, Dec 4, 2008 at 12:43 PM, Pete <pfein at pobox.com> wrote:

> Note I said "programmer", not "computer scientist".
>
> On Dec 4, 2008, at 11:42 AM, Michael Tobis wrote:
>
>  Not that this isn't pragmatically good advice, but didn't I just hear
>> the ghost of Edsger Dijkstra moaning in Dutch somewhere in the
>> distance?
>>
>> mt
>>
>> On 12/4/08, Pete <pfein at pobox.com> wrote:
>>
>>  Seriously, part of being a programmer is "try it & see if it works".  Try
>>> it.
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Chicago mailing list
>> Chicago at python.org
>> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Chicago mailing list
> Chicago at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>
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From pfein at pobox.com  Fri Dec  5 01:37:14 2008
From: pfein at pobox.com (Pete)
Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2008 18:37:14 -0600
Subject: [Chicago] python 3.0 hep
In-Reply-To: <13c49eee0812041050s1f7f2c00q7372d3de2719f789@mail.gmail.com>
References: <752841.64213.qm@web36503.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<3E33C2B3-A04E-4056-A511-66EC055E6D7F@pobox.com>
	<c3aa55550812040942u62bd5a98la2685938c0ac9c28@mail.gmail.com>
	<FEBB77B2-520F-49D1-ABBB-B1F8618BC039@pobox.com>
	<13c49eee0812041050s1f7f2c00q7372d3de2719f789@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <12B32C43-D7CF-4C66-982F-7DF314B783EB@pobox.com>

Dijkstra said it first: "Computer Science is no more about computers  
than astronomy is about telescopes."

On Dec 4, 2008, at 12:50 PM, Brian Fox wrote:

> Ouch that stings
>
> Brian J. Fox
>
>
> On Thu, Dec 4, 2008 at 12:43 PM, Pete <pfein at pobox.com> wrote:
> Note I said "programmer", not "computer scientist".
>
> On Dec 4, 2008, at 11:42 AM, Michael Tobis wrote:
>
> Not that this isn't pragmatically good advice, but didn't I just hear
> the ghost of Edsger Dijkstra moaning in Dutch somewhere in the
> distance?
>
> mt
>
> On 12/4/08, Pete <pfein at pobox.com> wrote:
>
> Seriously, part of being a programmer is "try it & see if it  
> works".  Try
> it.
> _______________________________________________
> Chicago mailing list
> Chicago at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>
> _______________________________________________
> Chicago mailing list
> Chicago at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>
> _______________________________________________
> Chicago mailing list
> Chicago at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago

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From maney at two14.net  Fri Dec  5 05:54:46 2008
From: maney at two14.net (Martin Maney)
Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2008 22:54:46 -0600
Subject: [Chicago] python 3.0 hep
In-Reply-To: <c3aa55550812040942u62bd5a98la2685938c0ac9c28@mail.gmail.com>
References: <752841.64213.qm@web36503.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<3E33C2B3-A04E-4056-A511-66EC055E6D7F@pobox.com>
	<c3aa55550812040942u62bd5a98la2685938c0ac9c28@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20081205045446.GD30603@furrr.two14.net>

On Thu, Dec 04, 2008 at 11:42:48AM -0600, Michael Tobis wrote:
> Not that this isn't pragmatically good advice, but didn't I just hear
> the ghost of Edsger Dijkstra moaning in Dutch somewhere in the
> distance?

Ah, like this:

  http://www.cs.utexas.edu/users/EWD/ewd10xx/EWD1036.PDF

-- 
One discharges fancy homunculi from one's scheme
by organizing armies of idiots to do the work.  -- Dennett


From MDiPierro at cs.depaul.edu  Fri Dec  5 08:38:17 2008
From: MDiPierro at cs.depaul.edu (DiPierro, Massimo)
Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 01:38:17 -0600
Subject: [Chicago] T3
Message-ID: <C1AA20CAC1E41647BFF1D41215EDD475808B31585E@wagner.cti.depaul.edu>

You may be interested in this:

http://web2py.appspot.com/t3

Massimo

From MDiPierro at cs.depaul.edu  Fri Dec  5 08:40:03 2008
From: MDiPierro at cs.depaul.edu (DiPierro, Massimo)
Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 01:40:03 -0600
Subject: [Chicago] T3
Message-ID: <C1AA20CAC1E41647BFF1D41215EDD475808B31585F@wagner.cti.depaul.edu>

You may be interested in this...

http://web2py.appspot.com/t3

now I am going to get a drink. ;-)

Massimo

From verisimilidude at gmail.com  Fri Dec  5 14:48:16 2008
From: verisimilidude at gmail.com (Phil Robare)
Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 07:48:16 -0600
Subject: [Chicago] python 3.0 hep
In-Reply-To: <3E33C2B3-A04E-4056-A511-66EC055E6D7F@pobox.com>
References: <752841.64213.qm@web36503.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<3E33C2B3-A04E-4056-A511-66EC055E6D7F@pobox.com>
Message-ID: <6ad48f980812050548x5d58633fg519a83155e17c67b@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Dec 4, 2008 at 10:16 AM, Pete <pfein at pobox.com> wrote:
>
> On Dec 4, 2008, at 8:50 AM, Craig Petty wrote:
>>
>> Did i  get python 2.6 on my laptop the right way i know i didn't overwrite
>> it.
>
> How the heck are we supposed to know?  It's your laptop.
>
> Seriously, part of being a programmer is "try it & see if it works".  Try
> it.
Come on guys, we're supposed to be a friendly helpful group here - if
a little tough around the edges.
Craig, you're on the bleeding edge trying to get a Py3K install built
and running.  I don't know if anyone here is also attempting that, but
I thing what Pete is saying is that this early in the cycle bad
scripts are part of the process.  If you need to get something 3.0
ready you might try running the Windows pre-build under Wine, or
(gasp) on a Windoze box.

From verisimilidude at gmail.com  Fri Dec  5 14:56:32 2008
From: verisimilidude at gmail.com (Phil Robare)
Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 07:56:32 -0600
Subject: [Chicago] T3
In-Reply-To: <C1AA20CAC1E41647BFF1D41215EDD475808B31585F@wagner.cti.depaul.edu>
References: <C1AA20CAC1E41647BFF1D41215EDD475808B31585F@wagner.cti.depaul.edu>
Message-ID: <6ad48f980812050556o8c4c0aeo24152c8e2d734c20@mail.gmail.com>

An awesome amount of work - go get a drink.  I am interested in the
Google ads that appeared beside your email when I read it on gmail:

<quote>
T3 Hair Dryers - Save 40%
Save on T3 Dryers & Styling Tools Free Shipping + 30 Day Money Back.
Folica.com

T3 Rate Quotes
Current T3 rate quotes from all major providers in your area.
t3rate.com
</quote>

Is this already so popular that people are trying to associate their
hair dryers and insurance offerings with it?


On Fri, Dec 5, 2008 at 1:40 AM, DiPierro, Massimo
<MDiPierro at cs.depaul.edu> wrote:
> You may be interested in this...
>
> http://web2py.appspot.com/t3
>
> now I am going to get a drink. ;-)
>
> Massimo
> _______________________________________________
> Chicago mailing list
> Chicago at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>

From MDiPierro at cs.depaul.edu  Fri Dec  5 16:22:25 2008
From: MDiPierro at cs.depaul.edu (DiPierro, Massimo)
Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 09:22:25 -0600
Subject: [Chicago] T3
In-Reply-To: <6ad48f980812050556o8c4c0aeo24152c8e2d734c20@mail.gmail.com>
References: <C1AA20CAC1E41647BFF1D41215EDD475808B31585F@wagner.cti.depaul.edu>,
	<6ad48f980812050556o8c4c0aeo24152c8e2d734c20@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <C1AA20CAC1E41647BFF1D41215EDD475808B315861@wagner.cti.depaul.edu>

lol

never noticed that.

Massimo
________________________________________
From: chicago-bounces+mdipierro=cs.depaul.edu at python.org [chicago-bounces+mdipierro=cs.depaul.edu at python.org] On Behalf Of Phil Robare [verisimilidude at gmail.com]
Sent: Friday, December 05, 2008 7:56 AM
To: The Chicago Python Users Group
Subject: Re: [Chicago] T3

An awesome amount of work - go get a drink.  I am interested in the
Google ads that appeared beside your email when I read it on gmail:

<quote>
T3 Hair Dryers - Save 40%
Save on T3 Dryers & Styling Tools Free Shipping + 30 Day Money Back.
Folica.com

T3 Rate Quotes
Current T3 rate quotes from all major providers in your area.
t3rate.com
</quote>

Is this already so popular that people are trying to associate their
hair dryers and insurance offerings with it?


On Fri, Dec 5, 2008 at 1:40 AM, DiPierro, Massimo
<MDiPierro at cs.depaul.edu> wrote:
> You may be interested in this...
>
> http://web2py.appspot.com/t3
>
> now I am going to get a drink. ;-)
>
> Massimo
> _______________________________________________
> Chicago mailing list
> Chicago at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>
_______________________________________________
Chicago mailing list
Chicago at python.org
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago

From cstejerean at gmail.com  Fri Dec  5 16:37:03 2008
From: cstejerean at gmail.com (Cosmin Stejerean)
Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 09:37:03 -0600
Subject: [Chicago] T3
In-Reply-To: <6ad48f980812050556o8c4c0aeo24152c8e2d734c20@mail.gmail.com>
References: <C1AA20CAC1E41647BFF1D41215EDD475808B31585F@wagner.cti.depaul.edu>
	<6ad48f980812050556o8c4c0aeo24152c8e2d734c20@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <276266d0812050737n3c5590fcl6b406c73b9f542c6@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Dec 5, 2008 at 7:56 AM, Phil Robare <verisimilidude at gmail.com>wrote:

> An awesome amount of work - go get a drink.  I am interested in the
> Google ads that appeared beside your email when I read it on gmail:
>
> <quote>
> T3 Hair Dryers - Save 40%
> Save on T3 Dryers & Styling Tools Free Shipping + 30 Day Money Back.
> Folica.com
>
> T3 Rate Quotes
> Current T3 rate quotes from all major providers in your area.
> t3rate.com
> </quote>
>
> Is this already so popular that people are trying to associate their
> hair dryers and insurance offerings with it?
>
>
Insurance?
-- 
Cosmin Stejerean
http://www.offbytwo.com
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From MDiPierro at cs.depaul.edu  Fri Dec  5 19:35:55 2008
From: MDiPierro at cs.depaul.edu (DiPierro, Massimo)
Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 12:35:55 -0600
Subject: [Chicago] T3
In-Reply-To: <276266d0812050737n3c5590fcl6b406c73b9f542c6@mail.gmail.com>
References: <C1AA20CAC1E41647BFF1D41215EDD475808B31585F@wagner.cti.depaul.edu>
	<6ad48f980812050556o8c4c0aeo24152c8e2d734c20@mail.gmail.com>,
	<276266d0812050737n3c5590fcl6b406c73b9f542c6@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <C1AA20CAC1E41647BFF1D41215EDD475808B315863@wagner.cti.depaul.edu>

I posted screenshots so one can get a better idea of what it does:

http://web2py.appspot.com/t3/default/wiki/screenshots

From ianb at colorstudy.com  Fri Dec  5 19:47:55 2008
From: ianb at colorstudy.com (Ian Bicking)
Date: Fri, 05 Dec 2008 12:47:55 -0600
Subject: [Chicago] T3
In-Reply-To: <C1AA20CAC1E41647BFF1D41215EDD475808B31585F@wagner.cti.depaul.edu>
References: <C1AA20CAC1E41647BFF1D41215EDD475808B31585F@wagner.cti.depaul.edu>
Message-ID: <4939775B.3040705@colorstudy.com>

DiPierro, Massimo wrote:
> You may be interested in this...
> 
> http://web2py.appspot.com/t3

Interestingly I've been working on something similar, 
http://pickmywiki.appspot.com -- similar to yours it is meant to allow 
code in pages.  Also all the templates are kept in the wiki itself.  I 
imagine we both found this feasible only because GAE is sandboxed 
already.  I also have an app (that I haven't integrated into PickyWiki 
yet) to store history of pages -- by keeping it in a separate GAE app 
instance you can make safe write-only history, which should mitigate the 
risk of injecting code into the pages.  The history app is only meant to 
work with page content, not arbitrary database content, though I suppose 
arbitrary content would also be possible (especially just using 
.to_xml() -- currently I have a custom way to munge pages into something 
that looks like Atom entries, and that wouldn't be applicable to 
arbitrary database tables).


Couple things:

README in web2py refers to runme.py

Why .tar for plugins and not .tar.gz or .tar.bz2 or .zip?

The WYSIWYG editor is too tall; it would be nice to keep it constrained 
to the height of the window ($(window).height()).

Linking in the WYSIWYG editor isn't working for me; it just defocuses 
the editor.  And you should use Xinha instead of Nicedit, because Xinha 
is cooler.

Search doesn't work for me.

I like that errors in the templates are localized.  I'll have to try 
doing that myself (in PickyWiki the whole page dies if there's any 
problems in any template, which is lame if you have non-programmers 
editing code).

You don't allow page names to include "-", only "_".  You might also 
want to look at the PickyWiki code to autofill the path in Javascript 
(the JS is inline in the edit screen, and is triggered only when you 
create a page).

There are Menu/Public options on the create page that aren't on the edit 
page.

-- 
Ian Bicking : ianb at colorstudy.com : http://blog.ianbicking.org

From MDiPierro at cs.depaul.edu  Fri Dec  5 20:15:15 2008
From: MDiPierro at cs.depaul.edu (DiPierro, Massimo)
Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 13:15:15 -0600
Subject: [Chicago] T3
In-Reply-To: <4939775B.3040705@colorstudy.com>
References: <C1AA20CAC1E41647BFF1D41215EDD475808B31585F@wagner.cti.depaul.edu>,
	<4939775B.3040705@colorstudy.com>
Message-ID: <C1AA20CAC1E41647BFF1D41215EDD475808B315864@wagner.cti.depaul.edu>

> README in web2py refers to runme.py

oops. web2py.py was called runme.py

> Why .tar for plugins and not .tar.gz or .tar.bz2 or .zip?

yes, I should add the option to understand other zip formats. It would be great if you could send me a patch.

> The WYSIWYG editor is too tall; it would be nice to keep it constrained to the height of the window ($(window).height()).

Yes. I will fix it.

> Linking in the WYSIWYG editor isn't working for me; it just defocuses the editor.  And you should use Xinha instead of Nicedit, because Xinhais cooler.

I will give it a try.

> Search doesn't work for me. 

Which search? could you send me more details?

> I like that errors in the templates are localized.  I'll have to try doing that myself (in PickyWiki the whole page dies if there's any
problems in any template, which is lame if you have non-programmers editing code).

The forms and errors are generated automatically so non-programmers only see things like {{=form}} or {{=self.create(db.table)}} or {{=self.update(db.table)}}, etc. They cannot change anything about error. In web2py they can via the CSS but T3 does not allow the same level of customzation that web2py allows. T3 only allows inserting plugins o python code. Eventually it will be merged with http://mdp.cti.depaul.edu/layouts

> You don't allow page names to include "-", only "_".  You might also want to look at the PickyWiki code to autofill the path in Javascript
(the JS is inline in the edit screen, and is triggered only when you create a page).

Thanks I will.

> There are Menu/Public options on the create page that aren't on the edit page.

They are on the edit page not not on the Main edit page because you must have at least one item i the menu and it must be visible. It is the entry page of the application.

Thank you for your comments. They are very insightful and I will try address some of the issues.

Massimo

From ianb at colorstudy.com  Fri Dec  5 21:45:53 2008
From: ianb at colorstudy.com (Ian Bicking)
Date: Fri, 05 Dec 2008 14:45:53 -0600
Subject: [Chicago] T3
In-Reply-To: <C1AA20CAC1E41647BFF1D41215EDD475808B315864@wagner.cti.depaul.edu>
References: <C1AA20CAC1E41647BFF1D41215EDD475808B31585F@wagner.cti.depaul.edu>,
	<4939775B.3040705@colorstudy.com>
	<C1AA20CAC1E41647BFF1D41215EDD475808B315864@wagner.cti.depaul.edu>
Message-ID: <49399301.8040306@colorstudy.com>

DiPierro, Massimo wrote:
>> Why .tar for plugins and not .tar.gz or .tar.bz2 or .zip?
> 
> yes, I should add the option to understand other zip formats. It would be great if you could send me a patch.

Ah, a few too many projects on my plate ;)  .tar.gz/bz2 is easy, there's 
a mode argument that will gunzip it.  zip is harder.

>> Search doesn't work for me. 
> 
> Which search? could you send me more details?

When I install it locally I get a link in the menu to: 
http://127.0.0.1:8000/mysite/default/search

That page maybe only searches titles?  I would expect bodies.

>> I like that errors in the templates are localized.  I'll have to try doing that myself (in PickyWiki the whole page dies if there's any
> problems in any template, which is lame if you have non-programmers editing code).
> 
> The forms and errors are generated automatically so non-programmers only see things like {{=form}} or {{=self.create(db.table)}}


I was noting if you do something like {{=1/0}} it will put an error in 
that position in the template, but the whole page won't refuse to render.

-- 
Ian Bicking : ianb at colorstudy.com : http://blog.ianbicking.org

From MDiPierro at cs.depaul.edu  Fri Dec  5 21:53:02 2008
From: MDiPierro at cs.depaul.edu (DiPierro, Massimo)
Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 14:53:02 -0600
Subject: [Chicago] T3
In-Reply-To: <49399301.8040306@colorstudy.com>
References: <C1AA20CAC1E41647BFF1D41215EDD475808B31585F@wagner.cti.depaul.edu>,
	<4939775B.3040705@colorstudy.com>
	<C1AA20CAC1E41647BFF1D41215EDD475808B315864@wagner.cti.depaul.edu>,
	<49399301.8040306@colorstudy.com>
Message-ID: <C1AA20CAC1E41647BFF1D41215EDD475808B315868@wagner.cti.depaul.edu>


> >> Search doesn't work for me.
> >
> > Which search? could you send me more details?

> When I install it locally I get a link in the menu to:
> http://127.0.0.1:8000/mysite/default/search

> That page maybe only searches titles?  I would expect bodies.

It should search both title and body. I will look.

> >> I like that errors in the templates are localized.  I'll have to try doing that myself (in PickyWiki the whole page dies if there's any
> > problems in any template, which is lame if you have non-programmers editing code).
> >
> > The forms and errors are generated automatically so non-programmers only see things like {{=form}} or {{=self.create(db.table)}}

> I was noting if you do something like {{=1/0}} it will put an error in
> that position in the template, but the whole page won't refuse to render.

In web2py if there is an error, the page does not render and you get a ticket. T2 does not use web2py templates. It only allows you to embed components. Each cmponent has its own MVC design. If you insert {{=1/0}} it treats the expressions as a trivial component. If a component fails, the rest of the page still renders, only the component reports the error. It is designed that way. Perhaps there should be an optional flag that says if there is any error redirect to.... 

Massimo

--
Ian Bicking : ianb at colorstudy.com : http://blog.ianbicking.org
_______________________________________________
Chicago mailing list
Chicago at python.org
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago

From mdipierro at cs.depaul.edu  Fri Dec  5 23:20:35 2008
From: mdipierro at cs.depaul.edu (Massimo Di Pierro)
Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 16:20:35 -0600
Subject: [Chicago] jobs
Message-ID: <9B60D3F9-A59C-40F5-A514-C669CB230067@cs.depaul.edu>

I was asked by some of my students to advertise this job.

http://www.integratedgenomics.com/careers.html

They mentioned Python so think this is appropriate.

Massimo

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From pfein at pobox.com  Sat Dec  6 05:10:45 2008
From: pfein at pobox.com (Pete)
Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 22:10:45 -0600
Subject: [Chicago] OT: Winter sublet
Message-ID: <E1482421-0298-4B8A-BA76-9D2CD869432A@pobox.com>

After much discussion on IRC, I present the following OT message for  
your Internet pleasure:

As penance for my sins, I will bring attempt to bring the snake to the  
next meeting.  Ninjas be warned!
http://images.craigslist.org/1321471ga3n63mf3od8c5766dbb429a0912a2.jpg

Very large one-bedroom furnished apartment in Logan Square available  
for Winter
Quarter sublet. January, February, March, with possibility of  
extending into April.
$750/month includes electricity, heat, and high-speed wireless  
Internet. The
apartment has hardwood floors, a back deck, and a very large kitchen,  
living room,
and ample sunlight-flooded front study, in addition to one separate  
bedroom.
Ideal for single person or couple. $500 security deposit required,  
will be returned
at the end of the stay if the apartment is clean and undamaged outside  
of normal
wear and tear. Ten minute walk from Logan Square Blue Line CTA, one  
block walk
to Fullerton and Diversey buses. 10 minute drive to 90/94.

More Photos: http://chicago.craigslist.org/chc/sub/943517020.html



From jcroneme at thoughtworks.com  Sat Dec  6 21:10:56 2008
From: jcroneme at thoughtworks.com (Josh Cronemeyer)
Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2008 14:10:56 -0600
Subject: [Chicago] OT: Winter sublet
In-Reply-To: <E1482421-0298-4B8A-BA76-9D2CD869432A@pobox.com>
Message-ID: <OF824F4B50.E8F7BD8D-ON86257517.006EC300-86257517.006F285A@thoughtworks.com>

Awesome!  It will have to fight the large snake with bushy eyebrows that 
already roams the thoughtworks office.

PEACE!
Josh Cronemeyer



Pete <pfein at pobox.com> 
Sent by: chicago-bounces+jcroneme=thoughtworks.com at python.org
12/05/08 10:10 PM
Please respond to
The Chicago Python Users Group <chicago at python.org>


To
The Chicago Python Users Group <chicago at python.org>
cc

Subject
[Chicago] OT: Winter sublet






After much discussion on IRC, I present the following OT message for 
your Internet pleasure:

As penance for my sins, I will bring attempt to bring the snake to the 
next meeting.  Ninjas be warned!
http://images.craigslist.org/1321471ga3n63mf3od8c5766dbb429a0912a2.jpg

Very large one-bedroom furnished apartment in Logan Square available 
for Winter
Quarter sublet. January, February, March, with possibility of 
extending into April.
$750/month includes electricity, heat, and high-speed wireless 
Internet. The
apartment has hardwood floors, a back deck, and a very large kitchen, 
living room,
and ample sunlight-flooded front study, in addition to one separate 
bedroom.
Ideal for single person or couple. $500 security deposit required, 
will be returned
at the end of the stay if the apartment is clean and undamaged outside 
of normal
wear and tear. Ten minute walk from Logan Square Blue Line CTA, one 
block walk
to Fullerton and Diversey buses. 10 minute drive to 90/94.

More Photos: http://chicago.craigslist.org/chc/sub/943517020.html


_______________________________________________
Chicago mailing list
Chicago at python.org
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago

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From mdipierro at cs.depaul.edu  Sun Dec  7 05:24:49 2008
From: mdipierro at cs.depaul.edu (Massimo Di Pierro)
Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2008 22:24:49 -0600
Subject: [Chicago] T3
In-Reply-To: <49399301.8040306@colorstudy.com>
References: <C1AA20CAC1E41647BFF1D41215EDD475808B31585F@wagner.cti.depaul.edu>,
	<4939775B.3040705@colorstudy.com>
	<C1AA20CAC1E41647BFF1D41215EDD475808B315864@wagner.cti.depaul.edu>
	<49399301.8040306@colorstudy.com>
Message-ID: <9F5BB793-5F41-482D-97CD-8024DBB9B851@cs.depaul.edu>

Hi Ian,

I made a new version of T3 and posted a video, I followed some of  
your suggestions below. Now the stylesheet is in database(datastore)  
too.

http://www.vimeo.com/2450936

Massimo


On Dec 5, 2008, at 2:45 PM, Ian Bicking wrote:

> DiPierro, Massimo wrote:
>>> Why .tar for plugins and not .tar.gz or .tar.bz2 or .zip?
>>
>> yes, I should add the option to understand other zip formats. It  
>> would be great if you could send me a patch.
>
> Ah, a few too many projects on my plate ;)  .tar.gz/bz2 is easy,  
> there's
> a mode argument that will gunzip it.  zip is harder.
>
>>> Search doesn't work for me.
>>
>> Which search? could you send me more details?
>
> When I install it locally I get a link in the menu to:
> http://127.0.0.1:8000/mysite/default/search
>
> That page maybe only searches titles?  I would expect bodies.
>
>>> I like that errors in the templates are localized.  I'll have to  
>>> try doing that myself (in PickyWiki the whole page dies if  
>>> there's any
>> problems in any template, which is lame if you have non- 
>> programmers editing code).
>>
>> The forms and errors are generated automatically so non- 
>> programmers only see things like {{=form}} or {{=self.create 
>> (db.table)}}
>
>
> I was noting if you do something like {{=1/0}} it will put an error in
> that position in the template, but the whole page won't refuse to  
> render.
>
> -- 
> Ian Bicking : ianb at colorstudy.com : http://blog.ianbicking.org
> _______________________________________________
> Chicago mailing list
> Chicago at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago


From tim at gebhardtcomputing.com  Sun Dec  7 16:35:48 2008
From: tim at gebhardtcomputing.com (Tim Gebhardt)
Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2008 09:35:48 -0600
Subject: [Chicago] python 3.0 hep
In-Reply-To: <6ad48f980812050548x5d58633fg519a83155e17c67b@mail.gmail.com>
References: <752841.64213.qm@web36503.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<3E33C2B3-A04E-4056-A511-66EC055E6D7F@pobox.com>
	<6ad48f980812050548x5d58633fg519a83155e17c67b@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1ce3f61a0812070735m5b95e521p59409b5daf929f36@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Dec 5, 2008 at 7:48 AM, Phil Robare <verisimilidude at gmail.com>wrote:

> Come on guys, we're supposed to be a friendly helpful group here - if
> a little tough around the edges.
> Craig, you're on the bleeding edge trying to get a Py3K install built
> and running.  I don't know if anyone here is also attempting that, but
> I thing what Pete is saying is that this early in the cycle bad
> scripts are part of the process.  If you need to get something 3.0
> ready you might try running the Windows pre-build under Wine, or
> (gasp) on a Windoze box.
>
>
If it's just for experimenting, the latest version of Ubuntu has a python3
package:

http://packages.ubuntu.com/search?keywords=python3

sudo apt-get update && sudo apt-get install python3

-Tim Gebhardt
tim at gebhardtcomputing.com
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From fasteliteprogrammer at yahoo.com  Sun Dec  7 17:13:30 2008
From: fasteliteprogrammer at yahoo.com (Craig Petty)
Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2008 08:13:30 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Chicago] python 3.0 hep
In-Reply-To: <1ce3f61a0812070735m5b95e521p59409b5daf929f36@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <806469.97383.qm@web36505.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

i think i stay with python 2.5.2 for now.Try getting it on unbuntu 8.10 qith no luck.


--- On Sun, 12/7/08, Tim Gebhardt <tim at gebhardtcomputing.com> wrote:

> From: Tim Gebhardt <tim at gebhardtcomputing.com>
> Subject: Re: [Chicago] python 3.0 hep
> To: "The Chicago Python Users Group" <chicago at python.org>
> Date: Sunday, December 7, 2008, 9:35 AM
> On Fri, Dec 5, 2008 at 7:48 AM, Phil Robare
> <verisimilidude at gmail.com>wrote:
> 
> > Come on guys, we're supposed to be a friendly
> helpful group here - if
> > a little tough around the edges.
> > Craig, you're on the bleeding edge trying to get a
> Py3K install built
> > and running.  I don't know if anyone here is also
> attempting that, but
> > I thing what Pete is saying is that this early in the
> cycle bad
> > scripts are part of the process.  If you need to get
> something 3.0
> > ready you might try running the Windows pre-build
> under Wine, or
> > (gasp) on a Windoze box.
> >
> >
> If it's just for experimenting, the latest version of
> Ubuntu has a python3
> package:
> 
> http://packages.ubuntu.com/search?keywords=python3
> 
> sudo apt-get update && sudo apt-get install python3
> 
> -Tim Gebhardt
> tim at gebhardtcomputing.com
> _______________________________________________
> Chicago mailing list
> Chicago at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago


      

From pfein at pobox.com  Mon Dec  8 17:04:53 2008
From: pfein at pobox.com (Pete)
Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2008 10:04:53 -0600
Subject: [Chicago] python 3.0 hep
In-Reply-To: <20081205045446.GD30603@furrr.two14.net>
References: <752841.64213.qm@web36503.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<3E33C2B3-A04E-4056-A511-66EC055E6D7F@pobox.com>
	<c3aa55550812040942u62bd5a98la2685938c0ac9c28@mail.gmail.com>
	<20081205045446.GD30603@furrr.two14.net>
Message-ID: <1BA97234-82F4-4153-9170-A95B96AC30E9@pobox.com>


On Dec 4, 2008, at 10:54 PM, Martin Maney wrote:

> On Thu, Dec 04, 2008 at 11:42:48AM -0600, Michael Tobis wrote:
>> Not that this isn't pragmatically good advice, but didn't I just hear
>> the ghost of Edsger Dijkstra moaning in Dutch somewhere in the
>> distance?
>
> Ah, like this:
>
>  http://www.cs.utexas.edu/users/EWD/ewd10xx/EWD1036.PDF

Thanks, that's a really good piece.  His handwriting is beautiful too.

While I really appreciate his perspective, Dijkstra's argument for  
formal methods in programming is predicated on the ability to create a  
formal specification of the problem at hand.  While that's fairly  
straightforward to do for the domino covering problem he describes,  
the real world is often not so conducive to such approaches.

To put it simply: In all likelihood, Donna in accounting can barely do  
her job by hand, let alone provide a rigorous mathematical description  
of the sort Dijkstra seems to be assuming as a prerequisite.

As programmers in an ambiguous and ever-changing world, Dijkstra's  
approach is insufficient.  What would he have us do, restrict  
ourselves to those problems which can be so specified?  I, for one,  
would rather hack my way through.

--Pete

From mtobis at gmail.com  Mon Dec  8 17:36:16 2008
From: mtobis at gmail.com (Michael Tobis)
Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2008 10:36:16 -0600
Subject: [Chicago] python 3.0 hep
In-Reply-To: <1BA97234-82F4-4153-9170-A95B96AC30E9@pobox.com>
References: <752841.64213.qm@web36503.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<3E33C2B3-A04E-4056-A511-66EC055E6D7F@pobox.com>
	<c3aa55550812040942u62bd5a98la2685938c0ac9c28@mail.gmail.com>
	<20081205045446.GD30603@furrr.two14.net>
	<1BA97234-82F4-4153-9170-A95B96AC30E9@pobox.com>
Message-ID: <c3aa55550812080836v50c7a549pe3a0ba7d01f54a70@mail.gmail.com>

I think Dijkstra's opposition to testing is wrong in favor of proof is
impractical.

In practice, often all you can do is say either you got the same
answer Donna did, or not. It is true that you cannot prove you will
always get the same answers as Donna would without a complete formal
model of what Donna does, and that sometimes neither Donna nor her
organization are capable of producing such a model, so Dijkstra would
presumably shrug, call matching the exiting test cases the desired
predicate, and end up with what we call tests.

As you say, "try it and see" is good advice, along with  "failing
that, try finding someone with more experience on this sort of thing
and put up with them sneering at your ignorance", both forms of
courage which the professional programmer would do well to summon.

Still, I would think that Dijkstra's attitude has value. For the most
part if you have to resort to guesswork or calling on someone who
knows some secret workarounds or investigatory tricks, some other
software professional has failed to provide you with a reasonable
platform for your own work.

Install hassles are especially huge sloppiness multipliers. I have
finally developed some of the skills to cope with installation hassles
but I resent every minute spent on "learning" those "skills" or coping
with the problems they address.

In the case of Python, I think every install hassle I've seen relates
to multiple Python installations on one platform. I can generally
muddle through nowadays but I don't think that such experience is
valuable to my skill set as a developer. Newbies should not have to
deal with such an  experience, and that includes newbies building from
source.

mt

From bray at sent.com  Tue Dec  9 02:11:51 2008
From: bray at sent.com (Brian Ray)
Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2008 19:11:51 -0600
Subject: [Chicago] ANN ChiPy December Meeting Thursday the 11th at
	ThoughtWork, pls RSVP
Message-ID: <41BB7DF8-AA42-4148-A022-D0A3985BAEE1@sent.com>

Chicago Python User Group
=========================

Calling all Chicago Python Ninja's, this will be our best meeting yet-- 
this Thursday. (if not, there will be some pretty darn good pizza in  
here)

Insert funny comic here: <http://tinyurl.com/6b2oln>

We have some interesting dragon slaying talks lined up this month.  
Starting off, Garrett will mix theory with practice in another one of  
his highly thought provoking talks.  Professor DiPierro will go all  
out with the tools that serve as his student's weapons in the real  
world. Josh will brave the Python waters as n00b who comes from the  
dark side and will probably tell us a interesting Ninja story while  
displaying Pythonic charm and charism--all while balancing on one  
leg ;) Do not try this at home. In fact, staying home will not be as  
much fun or as educational, folks.

This *will* be our best meeting yet.

Topics
------

   * Bazaar within Subversion, Personal Workflow - Garrett Smith
   * T2 (web2py tier two) and T3 - Massimo DiPierro
   * Beginning Python with AppEngine -  Josh Cronemeyer

NOTE: Due to the high level of interest in various talks, I have  
limited talk length to 25-30 min. Offenders will be severely punished  
by my personal Ninja friend.

When
----

Thursday, December 11th, 6:30pm Pizza
Thursday, December 11th, ~ 7pm Meeting

Location
--------

ThoughtWorks, 200 E. Randolph 25th floor.

RSVP jcroneme (at) thoughtworks.com  with a funny Monty Python Quote  
(he is serious, made me find one)


About ChiPy
-----------

ChiPy is a group of Chicago Python Programmers, l33t, and n00bs.
Meetings are held monthly at various locations around Chicago.
Also, ChiPy is a proud sponsor of many Open Source and Educational
efforts in Chicago. Stay tuned to the mailing list for more info.

ChiPy website: <http://chipy.org>
ChiPy Mailing List: <http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago>
ChiPy Announcement *ONLY* Mailing List: <http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chipy-announce 
 >
Python website: <http://python.org>



From g at rrett.us.com  Tue Dec  9 02:41:59 2008
From: g at rrett.us.com (Garrett Smith)
Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2008 19:41:59 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [Chicago] ANN ChiPy December Meeting Thursday the 11th at
 ThoughtWork, pls RSVP
In-Reply-To: <41BB7DF8-AA42-4148-A022-D0A3985BAEE1@sent.com>
Message-ID: <1703756474.14623131228786919847.JavaMail.root@mail-3.01.com>

+1 for funny comic!

----- "Brian Ray" <bray at sent.com> wrote:

> Chicago Python User Group
> =========================
> 
> Calling all Chicago Python Ninja's, this will be our best meeting
> yet-- 
> this Thursday. (if not, there will be some pretty darn good pizza in 
> 
> here)
> 
> Insert funny comic here: <http://tinyurl.com/6b2oln>
> 
> We have some interesting dragon slaying talks lined up this month.  
> Starting off, Garrett will mix theory with practice in another one of 
> 
> his highly thought provoking talks.  Professor DiPierro will go all  
> out with the tools that serve as his student's weapons in the real  
> world. Josh will brave the Python waters as n00b who comes from the  
> dark side and will probably tell us a interesting Ninja story while  
> displaying Pythonic charm and charism--all while balancing on one  
> leg ;) Do not try this at home. In fact, staying home will not be as 
> 
> much fun or as educational, folks.
> 
> This *will* be our best meeting yet.
> 
> Topics
> ------
> 
>    * Bazaar within Subversion, Personal Workflow - Garrett Smith
>    * T2 (web2py tier two) and T3 - Massimo DiPierro
>    * Beginning Python with AppEngine -  Josh Cronemeyer
> 
> NOTE: Due to the high level of interest in various talks, I have  
> limited talk length to 25-30 min. Offenders will be severely punished 
> 
> by my personal Ninja friend.
> 
> When
> ----
> 
> Thursday, December 11th, 6:30pm Pizza
> Thursday, December 11th, ~ 7pm Meeting
> 
> Location
> --------
> 
> ThoughtWorks, 200 E. Randolph 25th floor.
> 
> RSVP jcroneme (at) thoughtworks.com  with a funny Monty Python Quote 
> 
> (he is serious, made me find one)
> 
> 
> About ChiPy
> -----------
> 
> ChiPy is a group of Chicago Python Programmers, l33t, and n00bs.
> Meetings are held monthly at various locations around Chicago.
> Also, ChiPy is a proud sponsor of many Open Source and Educational
> efforts in Chicago. Stay tuned to the mailing list for more info.
> 
> ChiPy website: <http://chipy.org>
> ChiPy Mailing List: <http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago>
> ChiPy Announcement *ONLY* Mailing List:
> <http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chipy-announce 
>  >
> Python website: <http://python.org>
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Chicago mailing list
> Chicago at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago

From cwebber at dustycloud.org  Tue Dec  9 13:27:17 2008
From: cwebber at dustycloud.org (Christopher Allan Webber)
Date: Tue, 09 Dec 2008 06:27:17 -0600
Subject: [Chicago] ANN ChiPy December Meeting Thursday the 11th at
	ThoughtWork, pls RSVP
In-Reply-To: <1703756474.14623131228786919847.JavaMail.root@mail-3.01.com>
	(Garrett Smith's message of "Mon, 8 Dec 2008 19:41:59 -0600 (CST)")
References: <1703756474.14623131228786919847.JavaMail.root@mail-3.01.com>
Message-ID: <8763lth6u2.fsf@dustycloud.org>

Indeed... I laughed.  Who drew it?  Brian Ray, do you draw comics?

Garrett Smith <g at rrett.us.com> writes:

> +1 for funny comic!
>
> ----- "Brian Ray" <bray at sent.com> wrote:
>
>> Chicago Python User Group
>> =========================
>> 
>> Calling all Chicago Python Ninja's, this will be our best meeting
>> yet-- 
>> this Thursday. (if not, there will be some pretty darn good pizza in 
>> 
>> here)
>> 
>> Insert funny comic here: <http://tinyurl.com/6b2oln>
>> 
>> We have some interesting dragon slaying talks lined up this month.  
>> Starting off, Garrett will mix theory with practice in another one of 
>> 
>> his highly thought provoking talks.  Professor DiPierro will go all  
>> out with the tools that serve as his student's weapons in the real  
>> world. Josh will brave the Python waters as n00b who comes from the  
>> dark side and will probably tell us a interesting Ninja story while  
>> displaying Pythonic charm and charism--all while balancing on one  
>> leg ;) Do not try this at home. In fact, staying home will not be as 
>> 
>> much fun or as educational, folks.
>> 
>> This *will* be our best meeting yet.
>> 
>> Topics
>> ------
>> 
>>    * Bazaar within Subversion, Personal Workflow - Garrett Smith
>>    * T2 (web2py tier two) and T3 - Massimo DiPierro
>>    * Beginning Python with AppEngine -  Josh Cronemeyer
>> 
>> NOTE: Due to the high level of interest in various talks, I have  
>> limited talk length to 25-30 min. Offenders will be severely punished 
>> 
>> by my personal Ninja friend.
>> 
>> When
>> ----
>> 
>> Thursday, December 11th, 6:30pm Pizza
>> Thursday, December 11th, ~ 7pm Meeting
>> 
>> Location
>> --------
>> 
>> ThoughtWorks, 200 E. Randolph 25th floor.
>> 
>> RSVP jcroneme (at) thoughtworks.com  with a funny Monty Python Quote 
>> 
>> (he is serious, made me find one)
>> 
>> 
>> About ChiPy
>> -----------
>> 
>> ChiPy is a group of Chicago Python Programmers, l33t, and n00bs.
>> Meetings are held monthly at various locations around Chicago.
>> Also, ChiPy is a proud sponsor of many Open Source and Educational
>> efforts in Chicago. Stay tuned to the mailing list for more info.
>> 
>> ChiPy website: <http://chipy.org>
>> ChiPy Mailing List: <http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago>
>> ChiPy Announcement *ONLY* Mailing List:
>> <http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chipy-announce 
>>  >
>> Python website: <http://python.org>
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> Chicago mailing list
>> Chicago at python.org
>> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
> _______________________________________________
> Chicago mailing list
> Chicago at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago

From maney at two14.net  Tue Dec  9 18:52:59 2008
From: maney at two14.net (Martin Maney)
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2008 11:52:59 -0600
Subject: [Chicago] python 3.0 hep
In-Reply-To: <c3aa55550812080836v50c7a549pe3a0ba7d01f54a70@mail.gmail.com>
References: <752841.64213.qm@web36503.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<3E33C2B3-A04E-4056-A511-66EC055E6D7F@pobox.com>
	<c3aa55550812040942u62bd5a98la2685938c0ac9c28@mail.gmail.com>
	<20081205045446.GD30603@furrr.two14.net>
	<1BA97234-82F4-4153-9170-A95B96AC30E9@pobox.com>
	<c3aa55550812080836v50c7a549pe3a0ba7d01f54a70@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20081209175259.GA20248@furrr.two14.net>

On Mon, Dec 08, 2008 at 10:36:16AM -0600, Michael Tobis wrote:
> I think Dijkstra's opposition to testing is wrong in favor of proof is
> impractical.

It may be impractical, but he's not wrong: testing is literally trying
to "prove" a negative (the code has no errors) by showing that this
case works, and that case works, ....  Code so simple that exhaustive
testing is actually possible probably has a trivial formal proof - in
both cases it's the usefully complex code that offers difficulties. 

  (Before you say "but I test boundaries, so I don't need to test every
   possible case", consider on what basis you know that that works (both
   in general and, perhaps more importantly, in the specific case). 
   It's because you have some less-or-more formal proof (or, I suppose,
   sometimes just a faith-based belief) that it works that way.  here
   again, it's the interesting cases where you both need the sort of
   certainty you get from a proof and are least likely to have it
   ("proof is hard").)

I agree, of course, that when you don't know what exactly the code is
supposed to do you cannot prove it correct - but that doesn't make
testing the cases you [think yo]u do know about much better.  But it may
be all you can do, to be sure.

> In the case of Python, I think every install hassle I've seen relates
> to multiple Python installations on one platform. I can generally

Speaking, sort of, of installing multiple versions of the snake's
tongue, here's a brief report on the successful effort to port a
sizable project to share a common code base for operation under both
versions 2 and 3:

  http://mail.mems-exchange.org/durusmail/qp/441/

-- 
Threaten not the comic with your lawyers' bluster,
all toothless to suppress parody and satire;
for you will not amuse him, but you may inspire him.
  (me, inspired by http://www.netfunny.com/rhf/jokes/01/Apr/mcrhf.html)


From tcp at mac.com  Tue Dec  9 19:01:16 2008
From: tcp at mac.com (Ted Pollari)
Date: Tue, 09 Dec 2008 10:01:16 -0800
Subject: [Chicago] python 3.0 hep
In-Reply-To: <20081209175259.GA20248@furrr.two14.net>
References: <752841.64213.qm@web36503.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<3E33C2B3-A04E-4056-A511-66EC055E6D7F@pobox.com>
	<c3aa55550812040942u62bd5a98la2685938c0ac9c28@mail.gmail.com>
	<20081205045446.GD30603@furrr.two14.net>
	<1BA97234-82F4-4153-9170-A95B96AC30E9@pobox.com>
	<c3aa55550812080836v50c7a549pe3a0ba7d01f54a70@mail.gmail.com>
	<20081209175259.GA20248@furrr.two14.net>
Message-ID: <F005B0BB-93E1-4DB0-BD6A-D135EF34DB14@mac.com>


On Dec 9, 2008, at 9:52 AM, Martin Maney wrote:

> It may be impractical, but he's not wrong: testing is literally trying
> to "prove" a negative (the code has no errors) by showing that this
> case works, and that case works, ....

That's one view/use of testing but it's by far not the only one.

Testing can and is used to assure that bugs, once identified, are  
fixed and not inadvertently reintroduced, for example.

Testing is also used to prove that the code works for at least some  
set of intended inputs/uses.  That's still extremely valuable because  
doing that by hand is time consuming and not guaranteed to be accurate  
if there are a large number of cases.  Making the jump to saying that  
the code has no errors is either faulty logic or an intentional bit of  
exaggeration for arguments' sake.


That's my take at least and I'm sure there are much wiser folks than I  
on this issue.


-tcp



From maney at two14.net  Tue Dec  9 19:04:28 2008
From: maney at two14.net (Martin Maney)
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2008 12:04:28 -0600
Subject: [Chicago] python 3.0 hep
In-Reply-To: <F005B0BB-93E1-4DB0-BD6A-D135EF34DB14@mac.com>
References: <752841.64213.qm@web36503.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<3E33C2B3-A04E-4056-A511-66EC055E6D7F@pobox.com>
	<c3aa55550812040942u62bd5a98la2685938c0ac9c28@mail.gmail.com>
	<20081205045446.GD30603@furrr.two14.net>
	<1BA97234-82F4-4153-9170-A95B96AC30E9@pobox.com>
	<c3aa55550812080836v50c7a549pe3a0ba7d01f54a70@mail.gmail.com>
	<20081209175259.GA20248@furrr.two14.net>
	<F005B0BB-93E1-4DB0-BD6A-D135EF34DB14@mac.com>
Message-ID: <20081209180428.GB20248@furrr.two14.net>

On Tue, Dec 09, 2008 at 10:01:16AM -0800, Ted Pollari wrote:
> are a large number of cases.  Making the jump to saying that the code has 
> no errors is either faulty logic or an intentional bit of exaggeration 
> for arguments' sake.

But that's the only basis for arguing for testing in place of
correctness proofs, which is the context.  Whether code needs to be
really correct as opposed to working well enough is a different
discussion.

-- 
Some kinds of waste really are disgusting. SUVs, for example,
would arguably be gross even if they ran on a fuel which would
never run out and generated no pollution. SUVs are gross because
they're the solution to a gross problem. (How to make minivans
look more masculine.)  -- Paul Graham


From dgriff1 at gmail.com  Tue Dec  9 19:06:49 2008
From: dgriff1 at gmail.com (Daniel Griffin)
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2008 12:06:49 -0600
Subject: [Chicago] python 3.0 hep
In-Reply-To: <F005B0BB-93E1-4DB0-BD6A-D135EF34DB14@mac.com>
References: <752841.64213.qm@web36503.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<3E33C2B3-A04E-4056-A511-66EC055E6D7F@pobox.com>
	<c3aa55550812040942u62bd5a98la2685938c0ac9c28@mail.gmail.com>
	<20081205045446.GD30603@furrr.two14.net>
	<1BA97234-82F4-4153-9170-A95B96AC30E9@pobox.com>
	<c3aa55550812080836v50c7a549pe3a0ba7d01f54a70@mail.gmail.com>
	<20081209175259.GA20248@furrr.two14.net>
	<F005B0BB-93E1-4DB0-BD6A-D135EF34DB14@mac.com>
Message-ID: <3db160680812091006x69745fc5t2ef52e191e13d441@mail.gmail.com>

Its off topic but I have a quick question. In C/C++ you would use
pre-processor defines to tell a codebase what platform or language version
you are using.

Is  if sys.version < "3":   or the equivalent for platform the correct way
to deal with this in Python or are there other facilities? I know its rare
that this stuff matters, but it does come up.

Thanks,
Dan



On Tue, Dec 9, 2008 at 12:01 PM, Ted Pollari <tcp at mac.com> wrote:

>
> On Dec 9, 2008, at 9:52 AM, Martin Maney wrote:
>
>  It may be impractical, but he's not wrong: testing is literally trying
>> to "prove" a negative (the code has no errors) by showing that this
>> case works, and that case works, ....
>>
>
> That's one view/use of testing but it's by far not the only one.
>
> Testing can and is used to assure that bugs, once identified, are fixed and
> not inadvertently reintroduced, for example.
>
> Testing is also used to prove that the code works for at least some set of
> intended inputs/uses.  That's still extremely valuable because doing that by
> hand is time consuming and not guaranteed to be accurate if there are a
> large number of cases.  Making the jump to saying that the code has no
> errors is either faulty logic or an intentional bit of exaggeration for
> arguments' sake.
>
>
> That's my take at least and I'm sure there are much wiser folks than I on
> this issue.
>
>
> -tcp
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Chicago mailing list
> Chicago at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>
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From tcp at mac.com  Tue Dec  9 19:18:04 2008
From: tcp at mac.com (Ted Pollari)
Date: Tue, 09 Dec 2008 10:18:04 -0800
Subject: [Chicago] python 3.0 hep
In-Reply-To: <20081209180428.GB20248@furrr.two14.net>
References: <752841.64213.qm@web36503.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<3E33C2B3-A04E-4056-A511-66EC055E6D7F@pobox.com>
	<c3aa55550812040942u62bd5a98la2685938c0ac9c28@mail.gmail.com>
	<20081205045446.GD30603@furrr.two14.net>
	<1BA97234-82F4-4153-9170-A95B96AC30E9@pobox.com>
	<c3aa55550812080836v50c7a549pe3a0ba7d01f54a70@mail.gmail.com>
	<20081209175259.GA20248@furrr.two14.net>
	<F005B0BB-93E1-4DB0-BD6A-D135EF34DB14@mac.com>
	<20081209180428.GB20248@furrr.two14.net>
Message-ID: <C3A05178-4DD1-46EF-AAB3-F90417AAA142@mac.com>


On Dec 9, 2008, at 10:04 AM, Martin Maney wrote:

> On Tue, Dec 09, 2008 at 10:01:16AM -0800, Ted Pollari wrote:
>> are a large number of cases.  Making the jump to saying that the  
>> code has
>> no errors is either faulty logic or an intentional bit of  
>> exaggeration
>> for arguments' sake.
>
> But that's the only basis for arguing for testing in place of
> correctness proofs, which is the context.  Whether code needs to be
> really correct as opposed to working well enough is a different
> discussion.

It's a pragmatic decision because correctness proofs are themselves  
limited things made as pragmatic simplifications because of, you know,  
the halting problem -- total correctness is a tricky thing to prove,  
so you're left with partial correctness for most/many cases and that's  
fundamentally a pragmatic compromise.  So, if you're willing to make  
that compromise, you ought to be willing to consider further pragmatic  
compromises -- and pretending like your position isn't a pragmatic  
compromise is just silly.

-t


From ianb at colorstudy.com  Tue Dec  9 19:18:08 2008
From: ianb at colorstudy.com (Ian Bicking)
Date: Tue, 09 Dec 2008 12:18:08 -0600
Subject: [Chicago] python 3.0 hep
In-Reply-To: <20081209175259.GA20248@furrr.two14.net>
References: <752841.64213.qm@web36503.mail.mud.yahoo.com>	<3E33C2B3-A04E-4056-A511-66EC055E6D7F@pobox.com>	<c3aa55550812040942u62bd5a98la2685938c0ac9c28@mail.gmail.com>	<20081205045446.GD30603@furrr.two14.net>	<1BA97234-82F4-4153-9170-A95B96AC30E9@pobox.com>	<c3aa55550812080836v50c7a549pe3a0ba7d01f54a70@mail.gmail.com>
	<20081209175259.GA20248@furrr.two14.net>
Message-ID: <493EB660.2030107@colorstudy.com>

Martin Maney wrote:
> On Mon, Dec 08, 2008 at 10:36:16AM -0600, Michael Tobis wrote:
>> I think Dijkstra's opposition to testing is wrong in favor of proof is
>> impractical.
> 
> It may be impractical, but he's not wrong: testing is literally trying
> to "prove" a negative (the code has no errors) by showing that this
> case works, and that case works, ....  Code so simple that exhaustive
> testing is actually possible probably has a trivial formal proof - in
> both cases it's the usefully complex code that offers difficulties. 

Ultimately there's the question of the Chewbacca bug -- the breakdown of 
logic and communication.  How can you test against that?

Client: "please write me accounting software"
Consultant: "Yes sir!"
accounting_software.py:
def adder(x, y):
     return x + y

Proof:
For all x and y, let adder(x, y) be the sum of the two.
"x + y" performs a sum in Python.
Therefore the given definition of adder is correct.

Client: "but I asked for accounting software..."


Well, that's slightly trivial, but the underlying problem is common:

* Software is written for functional reasons
* Those functional reasons may not be understood by the person asking 
for the software
* Those functional reasons may not be described accurately
* The implementor may not hear the description accurately
* The resulting software may perform in a way that appears to match 
function requirements, because the implementation may overlap with a 
correct implementation for some subset of input

All these problems are fairly common.  The way we solve them is not 
through formal proof, but through an iterative and interactive process 
where underlying purposes are discussed, problems are rephrased, 
intermediate work is presented, etc.  This all looks more like 
"continuous testing" than "proof".  Indeed proofs themselves can have 
bugs, or someone can misunderstand the conclusion of a proof and have 
incorrect first principles when building on software that has a proof.

Therefore I assert that proofs are only a kind of testing technique, one 
that may be appropriate in certain circumstances, but ultimately can 
never be extracted from a larger system where "correct" is a 
probabilistic notion, not an absolute.

-- 
Ian Bicking : ianb at colorstudy.com : http://blog.ianbicking.org

From tottinge at gmail.com  Tue Dec  9 21:55:36 2008
From: tottinge at gmail.com (Tim Ottinger)
Date: Tue, 09 Dec 2008 14:55:36 -0600
Subject: [Chicago] python 3.0 hep
In-Reply-To: <20081209175259.GA20248@furrr.two14.net>
References: <752841.64213.qm@web36503.mail.mud.yahoo.com>	<3E33C2B3-A04E-4056-A511-66EC055E6D7F@pobox.com>	<c3aa55550812040942u62bd5a98la2685938c0ac9c28@mail.gmail.com>	<20081205045446.GD30603@furrr.two14.net>	<1BA97234-82F4-4153-9170-A95B96AC30E9@pobox.com>	<c3aa55550812080836v50c7a549pe3a0ba7d01f54a70@mail.gmail.com>
	<20081209175259.GA20248@furrr.two14.net>
Message-ID: <493EDB48.6020007@gmail.com>

Martin Maney wrote:
> On Mon, Dec 08, 2008 at 10:36:16AM -0600, Michael Tobis wrote:
>   
>> I think Dijkstra's opposition to testing is wrong in favor of proof is
>> impractical.
>>     
>
> It may be impractical, but he's not wrong: testing is literally trying
> to "prove" a negative (the code has no errors) by showing that this
> case works, and that case works,
I have a different take here.  I write tests to prove that one path or another works, then I run them over and over to show that those particular uses are not broken by the new change I may have just introduced.  I'm not trying to prove it's bug-free, only that the
important uses of it are functioning correctly (still).

I think that's about all you can hope from testin.

-- 

Tim ---------------------------
http://agileotter.blogspot.com/
http://tottinge.blogsome.com/
-Tim speaks only for himself---




From maney at two14.net  Tue Dec  9 22:46:09 2008
From: maney at two14.net (Martin Maney)
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2008 15:46:09 -0600
Subject: [Chicago] python 3.0 hep
In-Reply-To: <493EDB48.6020007@gmail.com>
References: <752841.64213.qm@web36503.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<3E33C2B3-A04E-4056-A511-66EC055E6D7F@pobox.com>
	<c3aa55550812040942u62bd5a98la2685938c0ac9c28@mail.gmail.com>
	<20081205045446.GD30603@furrr.two14.net>
	<1BA97234-82F4-4153-9170-A95B96AC30E9@pobox.com>
	<c3aa55550812080836v50c7a549pe3a0ba7d01f54a70@mail.gmail.com>
	<20081209175259.GA20248@furrr.two14.net>
	<493EDB48.6020007@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20081209214609.GA21380@furrr.two14.net>

On Tue, Dec 09, 2008 at 02:55:36PM -0600, Tim Ottinger wrote: I have a
> different take here.  I write tests to prove that one path or another
> works, then I run them over and over to show that those particular
> uses are not broken by the new change I may have just introduced. 
> I'm not trying to prove it's bug-free, only that the important uses
> of it are functioning correctly (still).
>
> I think that's about all you can hope from testin.

I think Dijkstra would agree with you. <wink>

-- 
Obscurity is a far great threat to authors and creative artists
than piracy.  -- Tim O'Reilly


From maney at two14.net  Tue Dec  9 23:00:55 2008
From: maney at two14.net (Martin Maney)
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2008 16:00:55 -0600
Subject: [Chicago] python 3.0 hep
In-Reply-To: <493EB660.2030107@colorstudy.com>
References: <752841.64213.qm@web36503.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<3E33C2B3-A04E-4056-A511-66EC055E6D7F@pobox.com>
	<c3aa55550812040942u62bd5a98la2685938c0ac9c28@mail.gmail.com>
	<20081205045446.GD30603@furrr.two14.net>
	<1BA97234-82F4-4153-9170-A95B96AC30E9@pobox.com>
	<c3aa55550812080836v50c7a549pe3a0ba7d01f54a70@mail.gmail.com>
	<20081209175259.GA20248@furrr.two14.net>
	<493EB660.2030107@colorstudy.com>
Message-ID: <20081209220055.GB21380@furrr.two14.net>

On Tue, Dec 09, 2008 at 12:18:08PM -0600, Ian Bicking wrote:
> Ultimately there's the question of the Chewbacca bug -- the breakdown of  
> logic and communication.  How can you test against that?

If you don't know what's needed, why worry about testing?  It's going
to be incorrect no matter what you do.  <wink>

-- 
Then I can figure out what the information-support needs are and
build a prototype for people to respond to.  This works, because
people generally don't know what they need, but they can tell you
with certainty when you get it wrong.  -- Paul Murphy


From ianb at colorstudy.com  Wed Dec 10 06:11:10 2008
From: ianb at colorstudy.com (Ian Bicking)
Date: Tue, 09 Dec 2008 23:11:10 -0600
Subject: [Chicago] python 3.0 hep
In-Reply-To: <20081209220055.GB21380@furrr.two14.net>
References: <752841.64213.qm@web36503.mail.mud.yahoo.com>	<3E33C2B3-A04E-4056-A511-66EC055E6D7F@pobox.com>	<c3aa55550812040942u62bd5a98la2685938c0ac9c28@mail.gmail.com>	<20081205045446.GD30603@furrr.two14.net>	<1BA97234-82F4-4153-9170-A95B96AC30E9@pobox.com>	<c3aa55550812080836v50c7a549pe3a0ba7d01f54a70@mail.gmail.com>	<20081209175259.GA20248@furrr.two14.net>	<493EB660.2030107@colorstudy.com>
	<20081209220055.GB21380@furrr.two14.net>
Message-ID: <493F4F6E.5010704@colorstudy.com>

On 12/09/2008 04:00 PM, Martin Maney wrote:
> On Tue, Dec 09, 2008 at 12:18:08PM -0600, Ian Bicking wrote:
>> Ultimately there's the question of the Chewbacca bug -- the breakdown of
>> logic and communication.  How can you test against that?
>
> If you don't know what's needed, why worry about testing?  It's going
> to be incorrect no matter what you do.<wink>

If you don't know if you know what's needed, why worry about testing? 
Meta ignorance abounds!

   Ian

From jcroneme at thoughtworks.com  Wed Dec 10 16:07:23 2008
From: jcroneme at thoughtworks.com (Josh Cronemeyer)
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2008 09:07:23 -0600
Subject: [Chicago] Tomorrow's meeting and what to do if you are captured by
 the security ninjas.
Message-ID: <OF29E189BE.C616DD11-ON8625751B.0052161C-8625751B.00536210@thoughtworks.com>

So if you get to the AON center and can't get through security you can 
call 312 203 7697.  The password is "NONE SHALL PASS."

PEACE!
Josh Cronemeyer
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From carl at personnelware.com  Wed Dec 10 16:43:28 2008
From: carl at personnelware.com (Carl Karsten)
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2008 09:43:28 -0600
Subject: [Chicago] Tomorrow's meeting and what to do if you are captured
 by	the security ninjas.
In-Reply-To: <OF29E189BE.C616DD11-ON8625751B.0052161C-8625751B.00536210@thoughtworks.com>
References: <OF29E189BE.C616DD11-ON8625751B.0052161C-8625751B.00536210@thoughtworks.com>
Message-ID: <493FE3A0.6040506@personnelware.com>

Josh,

Add me to the RSVP list, and...

Is there going to be an Internet connection?  and if so, pretty please can I
have a wire?  I am hoping to do a live stream, and wifi can work, but adds a
layer of problem that I would rather not deal with.

Carl K

From jcroneme at thoughtworks.com  Wed Dec 10 19:59:49 2008
From: jcroneme at thoughtworks.com (Josh Cronemeyer)
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2008 12:59:49 -0600
Subject: [Chicago] Tomorrow's meeting and what to do if you are captured
 by	the security ninjas.
In-Reply-To: <493FE3A0.6040506@personnelware.com>
Message-ID: <OF443B8FB0.671AFDCC-ON8625751B.006851CC-8625751B.0068A99F@thoughtworks.com>

Shouldn't be a problem.  We can get you a wire.

PEACE!
Josh Cronemeyer



Carl Karsten <carl at personnelware.com> 
Sent by: chicago-bounces+jcroneme=thoughtworks.com at python.org
12/10/08 09:43 AM
Please respond to
The Chicago Python Users Group <chicago at python.org>


To
The Chicago Python Users Group <chicago at python.org>
cc

Subject
Re: [Chicago] Tomorrow's meeting and what to do if you are captured by the 
security ninjas.






Josh,

Add me to the RSVP list, and...

Is there going to be an Internet connection?  and if so, pretty please can 
I
have a wire?  I am hoping to do a live stream, and wifi can work, but adds 
a
layer of problem that I would rather not deal with.

Carl K
_______________________________________________
Chicago mailing list
Chicago at python.org
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago

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From david.durham.jr at gmail.com  Thu Dec 11 16:00:26 2008
From: david.durham.jr at gmail.com (David Durham, Jr.)
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2008 09:00:26 -0600
Subject: [Chicago] python 3.0 hep
In-Reply-To: <493F4F6E.5010704@colorstudy.com>
References: <752841.64213.qm@web36503.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<3E33C2B3-A04E-4056-A511-66EC055E6D7F@pobox.com>
	<c3aa55550812040942u62bd5a98la2685938c0ac9c28@mail.gmail.com>
	<20081205045446.GD30603@furrr.two14.net>
	<1BA97234-82F4-4153-9170-A95B96AC30E9@pobox.com>
	<c3aa55550812080836v50c7a549pe3a0ba7d01f54a70@mail.gmail.com>
	<20081209175259.GA20248@furrr.two14.net>
	<493EB660.2030107@colorstudy.com>
	<20081209220055.GB21380@furrr.two14.net>
	<493F4F6E.5010704@colorstudy.com>
Message-ID: <fdb5fda0812110700u12be2278ya831f6145107adbe@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Dec 9, 2008 at 11:11 PM, Ian Bicking <ianb at colorstudy.com> wrote:
> On 12/09/2008 04:00 PM, Martin Maney wrote:
>>
>> On Tue, Dec 09, 2008 at 12:18:08PM -0600, Ian Bicking wrote:
>>>
>>> Ultimately there's the question of the Chewbacca bug -- the breakdown of
>>> logic and communication.  How can you test against that?
>>
>> If you don't know what's needed, why worry about testing?  It's going
>> to be incorrect no matter what you do.<wink>
>
> If you don't know if you know what's needed, why worry about testing? Meta
> ignorance abounds!

Not writing a proof is in itself an informal test of the proof-writing
system.  I have been conducting my research for years and I can say
with some degree of certainty (let's call that degree "a lot") that
most people do not need to write proofs in everyday programming life.
Regression testing is pretty darned good.

-Dave

From bob.haugen at gmail.com  Thu Dec 11 16:25:14 2008
From: bob.haugen at gmail.com (Bob Haugen)
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2008 09:25:14 -0600
Subject: [Chicago] python 3.0 hep
In-Reply-To: <fdb5fda0812110700u12be2278ya831f6145107adbe@mail.gmail.com>
References: <752841.64213.qm@web36503.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<c3aa55550812040942u62bd5a98la2685938c0ac9c28@mail.gmail.com>
	<20081205045446.GD30603@furrr.two14.net>
	<1BA97234-82F4-4153-9170-A95B96AC30E9@pobox.com>
	<c3aa55550812080836v50c7a549pe3a0ba7d01f54a70@mail.gmail.com>
	<20081209175259.GA20248@furrr.two14.net>
	<493EB660.2030107@colorstudy.com>
	<20081209220055.GB21380@furrr.two14.net>
	<493F4F6E.5010704@colorstudy.com>
	<fdb5fda0812110700u12be2278ya831f6145107adbe@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <343ecb3e0812110725u19946c8ewcaabafed86e9ad12@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Dec 11, 2008 at 9:00 AM, David Durham, Jr.
<david.durham.jr at gmail.com> wrote:
> Not writing a proof is in itself an informal test of the proof-writing
> system.  I have been conducting my research for years and I can say
> with some degree of certainty (let's call that degree "a lot") that
> most people do not need to write proofs in everyday programming life.
> Regression testing is pretty darned good.

Plus, writing a proof is equivalent to writing more program code,
which means the proof needs to be tested, may have bugs, may be
subject to similar misunderstandings of purpose as code, etc.

So you get an infinite regression test.

From kumar.mcmillan at gmail.com  Thu Dec 11 21:03:23 2008
From: kumar.mcmillan at gmail.com (Kumar McMillan)
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2008 14:03:23 -0600
Subject: [Chicago] ANN ChiPy December Meeting Thursday the 11th at
	ThoughtWork, pls RSVP
In-Reply-To: <8763lth6u2.fsf@dustycloud.org>
References: <1703756474.14623131228786919847.JavaMail.root@mail-3.01.com>
	<8763lth6u2.fsf@dustycloud.org>
Message-ID: <b571660a0812111203k331ffef0xf1cc7aa66517029c@mail.gmail.com>

Can someone update the wiki with RSVP information?  I'm not sure
exactly what part of RSVP info should be made public like that.
Josh's email address?  His phone number?  His social security number?

On Tue, Dec 9, 2008 at 6:27 AM, Christopher Allan Webber
<cwebber at dustycloud.org> wrote:
> Indeed... I laughed.  Who drew it?  Brian Ray, do you draw comics?
>
> Garrett Smith <g at rrett.us.com> writes:
>
>> +1 for funny comic!
>>
>> ----- "Brian Ray" <bray at sent.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Chicago Python User Group
>>> =========================
>>>
>>> Calling all Chicago Python Ninja's, this will be our best meeting
>>> yet--
>>> this Thursday. (if not, there will be some pretty darn good pizza in
>>>
>>> here)
>>>
>>> Insert funny comic here: <http://tinyurl.com/6b2oln>
>>>
>>> We have some interesting dragon slaying talks lined up this month.
>>> Starting off, Garrett will mix theory with practice in another one of
>>>
>>> his highly thought provoking talks.  Professor DiPierro will go all
>>> out with the tools that serve as his student's weapons in the real
>>> world. Josh will brave the Python waters as n00b who comes from the
>>> dark side and will probably tell us a interesting Ninja story while
>>> displaying Pythonic charm and charism--all while balancing on one
>>> leg ;) Do not try this at home. In fact, staying home will not be as
>>>
>>> much fun or as educational, folks.
>>>
>>> This *will* be our best meeting yet.
>>>
>>> Topics
>>> ------
>>>
>>>    * Bazaar within Subversion, Personal Workflow - Garrett Smith
>>>    * T2 (web2py tier two) and T3 - Massimo DiPierro
>>>    * Beginning Python with AppEngine -  Josh Cronemeyer
>>>
>>> NOTE: Due to the high level of interest in various talks, I have
>>> limited talk length to 25-30 min. Offenders will be severely punished
>>>
>>> by my personal Ninja friend.
>>>
>>> When
>>> ----
>>>
>>> Thursday, December 11th, 6:30pm Pizza
>>> Thursday, December 11th, ~ 7pm Meeting
>>>
>>> Location
>>> --------
>>>
>>> ThoughtWorks, 200 E. Randolph 25th floor.
>>>
>>> RSVP jcroneme (at) thoughtworks.com  with a funny Monty Python Quote
>>>
>>> (he is serious, made me find one)
>>>
>>>
>>> About ChiPy
>>> -----------
>>>
>>> ChiPy is a group of Chicago Python Programmers, l33t, and n00bs.
>>> Meetings are held monthly at various locations around Chicago.
>>> Also, ChiPy is a proud sponsor of many Open Source and Educational
>>> efforts in Chicago. Stay tuned to the mailing list for more info.
>>>
>>> ChiPy website: <http://chipy.org>
>>> ChiPy Mailing List: <http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago>
>>> ChiPy Announcement *ONLY* Mailing List:
>>> <http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chipy-announce
>>>  >
>>> Python website: <http://python.org>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Chicago mailing list
>>> Chicago at python.org
>>> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>> _______________________________________________
>> Chicago mailing list
>> Chicago at python.org
>> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
> _______________________________________________
> Chicago mailing list
> Chicago at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>

From david.durham.jr at gmail.com  Thu Dec 11 22:04:01 2008
From: david.durham.jr at gmail.com (David Durham, Jr.)
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2008 15:04:01 -0600
Subject: [Chicago] why subversion does not suck
Message-ID: <fdb5fda0812111304w16ce8f59g9e334dde985190f9@mail.gmail.com>

http://blog.assembla.com/assemblablog/tabid/12618/bid/7437/Why-Subversion-does-not-suck.aspx

    ...  Imagine that in this world someone announces a radically
simplified VCS option called centralized Subversion. ...


-Dave

From bray at sent.com  Thu Dec 11 22:18:17 2008
From: bray at sent.com (Brian Ray)
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2008 15:18:17 -0600
Subject: [Chicago] why subversion does not suck
In-Reply-To: <fdb5fda0812111304w16ce8f59g9e334dde985190f9@mail.gmail.com>
References: <fdb5fda0812111304w16ce8f59g9e334dde985190f9@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <00602200-8565-4C95-9D99-992ED4C52DF7@sent.com>


On Dec 11, 2008, at 3:04 PM, David Durham, Jr. wrote:

> http://blog.assembla.com/assemblablog/tabid/12618/bid/7437/Why-Subversion-does-not-suck.aspx
>
>    ...  Imagine that in this world someone announces a radically
> simplified VCS option called centralized Subversion. ...
>


Perfect segue to tonight's meeting topic... Thanks.


Brian Ray




From pfein at pobox.com  Thu Dec 11 22:57:46 2008
From: pfein at pobox.com (Pete)
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2008 15:57:46 -0600
Subject: [Chicago] Job Opening
Message-ID: <FBEF6C97-4E4E-4BFE-9074-943E3BA8D16F@pobox.com>

My company Juju is looking for a Python developer.  I'll be at the  
meeting tonight (with snakes!) - come say hi.

http://juju.standoutjobs.com/jobs/932-python-developer

Juju, a popular vertical search engine focused on jobs, is looking for  
a skilled Python Developer. Juju's goal is to make job search easier  
using technology and thoughtful user interface design. We strive to  
create groundbreaking tools that make it faster and easier for online  
job seekers to find exactly what they?re looking for. Our job search  
engine provides a single point of access to millions of jobs found on  
thousands of employer websites and job boards around the web, and  
offers features that help job seekers find and apply to the right  
opportunities more efficiently.

Desired Interest/Experience:

- Text search & analysis
- RESTful distributed computing & storage
- Web crawling techniques
- Automated text extraction & machine learning
- Building interactive web apps

Desired Technical Background:

- Python, Python, Python!
- Linux or other modern UNIX
- Subversion & Trac
- protocol-level HTTP: lighttpd, pound, squid
- Storage Engines: Lucene, SQLite, metakit, memcached
- Twisted
- HTML/XML/JSON

Our work to date has enabled us to attract millions of unique visitors  
every month, and laid a solid foundation for the future. But, the best  
is yet to come and we need talented, creative programmers to help us  
meet our ambitious goals. If you:

- have deep python experience
- want to work with bright, motivated people
- enjoy tackling BIG problems with clever code

send us an application or just drop us a note. If you don?t have all  
of the skills listed above, but still think you?re a great fit, apply  
anyway and tell us why.

Employees are given substantial freedom to design and implement  
solutions, and allocate their own time. We telecommute and maintain a  
demanding, but flexible, work environment. The team is US based, but  
we will consider qualified global applicants.  Project and part-time  
arrangements are possible.

Candidates should be experienced, well-rounded programmers, familiar  
with a range of practices, including maintaining a shared code base,  
object-oriented design, network programming, multithreading,  
optimization, and unit testing. The ability to communicate effectively  
with coworkers while working independently with limited oversight is  
essential.

NOTE: In addition to the position described above, we?re looking for a  
System Administrator and an experienced User Interface Designer. If  
that?s you, just mention that when applying via the link below.



From tcp at mac.com  Thu Dec 11 23:09:54 2008
From: tcp at mac.com (Ted Pollari)
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2008 14:09:54 -0800
Subject: [Chicago] Job Opening
In-Reply-To: <FBEF6C97-4E4E-4BFE-9074-943E3BA8D16F@pobox.com>
References: <FBEF6C97-4E4E-4BFE-9074-943E3BA8D16F@pobox.com>
Message-ID: <4634E53D-6574-40F9-A15F-EB1C56D18DAF@mac.com>


On Dec 11, 2008, at 1:57 PM, Pete wrote:

> Desired Technical Background:
>
> - Python, Python, Python!
> - Linux or other modern UNIX
> - Subversion & Trac
> - protocol-level HTTP: lighttpd, pound, squid
> - Storage Engines: Lucene, SQLite, metakit, memcached
> - Twisted
> - HTML/XML/JSON


For the record, IMHO, this is how to post a job opportunity to the  
ChiPy list the right way... lead of with "Python, Python, Python!"  
rather than merely including it as an alternative to Perl or Scheme or  
something like that.

(not that the recruiters are reading this, but a boy can hope)

-t


From jbsnyder at fanplastic.org  Thu Dec 11 23:16:55 2008
From: jbsnyder at fanplastic.org (James Snyder)
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2008 16:16:55 -0600
Subject: [Chicago] ANN ChiPy December Meeting Thursday the 11th at
	ThoughtWork, pls RSVP
In-Reply-To: <41BB7DF8-AA42-4148-A022-D0A3985BAEE1@sent.com>
References: <41BB7DF8-AA42-4148-A022-D0A3985BAEE1@sent.com>
Message-ID: <120F9122-7629-470A-B5A1-DA23123C6B2A@fanplastic.org>

I could probably do a lightning talk on using the new/old  
multiprocessing module with Pools of workers.

It wouldn't go into a huge amount of depth, but I could quickly show  
how to make pools of worker processes and have them independently work  
on data.


On Dec 8, 2008, at 7:11 PM, Brian Ray wrote:

> Chicago Python User Group
> =========================
>
> Calling all Chicago Python Ninja's, this will be our best meeting  
> yet--this Thursday. (if not, there will be some pretty darn good  
> pizza in here)
>
> Insert funny comic here: <http://tinyurl.com/6b2oln>
>
> We have some interesting dragon slaying talks lined up this month.  
> Starting off, Garrett will mix theory with practice in another one  
> of his highly thought provoking talks.  Professor DiPierro will go  
> all out with the tools that serve as his student's weapons in the  
> real world. Josh will brave the Python waters as n00b who comes from  
> the dark side and will probably tell us a interesting Ninja story  
> while displaying Pythonic charm and charism--all while balancing on  
> one leg ;) Do not try this at home. In fact, staying home will not  
> be as much fun or as educational, folks.
>
> This *will* be our best meeting yet.
>
> Topics
> ------
>
>  * Bazaar within Subversion, Personal Workflow - Garrett Smith
>  * T2 (web2py tier two) and T3 - Massimo DiPierro
>  * Beginning Python with AppEngine -  Josh Cronemeyer
>
> NOTE: Due to the high level of interest in various talks, I have  
> limited talk length to 25-30 min. Offenders will be severely  
> punished by my personal Ninja friend.
>
> When
> ----
>
> Thursday, December 11th, 6:30pm Pizza
> Thursday, December 11th, ~ 7pm Meeting
>
> Location
> --------
>
> ThoughtWorks, 200 E. Randolph 25th floor.
>
> RSVP jcroneme (at) thoughtworks.com  with a funny Monty Python Quote  
> (he is serious, made me find one)
>
>
> About ChiPy
> -----------
>
> ChiPy is a group of Chicago Python Programmers, l33t, and n00bs.
> Meetings are held monthly at various locations around Chicago.
> Also, ChiPy is a proud sponsor of many Open Source and Educational
> efforts in Chicago. Stay tuned to the mailing list for more info.
>
> ChiPy website: <http://chipy.org>
> ChiPy Mailing List: <http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago>
> ChiPy Announcement *ONLY* Mailing List: <http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chipy-announce 
> >
> Python website: <http://python.org>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Chicago mailing list
> Chicago at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago

--
James Snyder
Biomedical Engineering
Northwestern University
jbsnyder at fanplastic.org
http://fanplastic.org/key.txt
ph: (847) 644-2322

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From raffi.soulonfire at gmail.com  Fri Dec 12 00:21:15 2008
From: raffi.soulonfire at gmail.com (Raffi Mohammed)
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2008 17:21:15 -0600
Subject: [Chicago] ANN ChiPy December Meeting Thursday the 11th at
	ThoughtWork, pls RSVP
In-Reply-To: <120F9122-7629-470A-B5A1-DA23123C6B2A@fanplastic.org>
References: <41BB7DF8-AA42-4148-A022-D0A3985BAEE1@sent.com>
	<120F9122-7629-470A-B5A1-DA23123C6B2A@fanplastic.org>
Message-ID: <8be53a8d0812111521m7564aebexb0008636e1b320ad@mail.gmail.com>

You might want to call it HumanMapReduce.

On Thu, Dec 11, 2008 at 4:16 PM, James Snyder <jbsnyder at fanplastic.org> wrote:
> I could probably do a lightning talk on using the new/old multiprocessing
> module with Pools of workers.
> It wouldn't go into a huge amount of depth, but I could quickly show how to
> make pools of worker processes and have them independently work on data.
>
> On Dec 8, 2008, at 7:11 PM, Brian Ray wrote:
>
> Chicago Python User Group
> =========================
>
> Calling all Chicago Python Ninja's, this will be our best meeting yet--this
> Thursday. (if not, there will be some pretty darn good pizza in here)
>
> Insert funny comic here: <http://tinyurl.com/6b2oln>
>
> We have some interesting dragon slaying talks lined up this month. Starting
> off, Garrett will mix theory with practice in another one of his highly
> thought provoking talks.  Professor DiPierro will go all out with the tools
> that serve as his student's weapons in the real world. Josh will brave the
> Python waters as n00b who comes from the dark side and will probably tell us
> a interesting Ninja story while displaying Pythonic charm and charism--all
> while balancing on one leg ;) Do not try this at home. In fact, staying home
> will not be as much fun or as educational, folks.
>
> This *will* be our best meeting yet.
>
> Topics
> ------
>
>  * Bazaar within Subversion, Personal Workflow - Garrett Smith
>  * T2 (web2py tier two) and T3 - Massimo DiPierro
>  * Beginning Python with AppEngine -  Josh Cronemeyer
>
> NOTE: Due to the high level of interest in various talks, I have limited
> talk length to 25-30 min. Offenders will be severely punished by my personal
> Ninja friend.
>
> When
> ----
>
> Thursday, December 11th, 6:30pm Pizza
> Thursday, December 11th, ~ 7pm Meeting
>
> Location
> --------
>
> ThoughtWorks, 200 E. Randolph 25th floor.
>
> RSVP jcroneme (at) thoughtworks.com  with a funny Monty Python Quote (he is
> serious, made me find one)
>
>
> About ChiPy
> -----------
>
> ChiPy is a group of Chicago Python Programmers, l33t, and n00bs.
> Meetings are held monthly at various locations around Chicago.
> Also, ChiPy is a proud sponsor of many Open Source and Educational
> efforts in Chicago. Stay tuned to the mailing list for more info.
>
> ChiPy website: <http://chipy.org>
> ChiPy Mailing List: <http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago>
> ChiPy Announcement *ONLY* Mailing List:
> <http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chipy-announce>
> Python website: <http://python.org>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Chicago mailing list
> Chicago at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>
> --
> James Snyder
> Biomedical Engineering
> Northwestern University
> jbsnyder at fanplastic.org
> http://fanplastic.org/key.txt
> ph: (847) 644-2322
>
> _______________________________________________
> Chicago mailing list
> Chicago at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>
>

From shekay at pobox.com  Fri Dec 12 00:24:05 2008
From: shekay at pobox.com (sheila miguez)
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2008 17:24:05 -0600
Subject: [Chicago] Tomorrow's meeting and what to do if you are captured
	by the security ninjas.
In-Reply-To: <OF443B8FB0.671AFDCC-ON8625751B.006851CC-8625751B.0068A99F@thoughtworks.com>
References: <493FE3A0.6040506@personnelware.com>
	<OF443B8FB0.671AFDCC-ON8625751B.006851CC-8625751B.0068A99F@thoughtworks.com>
Message-ID: <a68ced640812111524v5372853dic5552eea50b7bc45@mail.gmail.com>

He wants to know if he needs to bring a monitor or if he can borrow one.

On Wed, Dec 10, 2008 at 12:59 PM, Josh Cronemeyer
<jcroneme at thoughtworks.com> wrote:
>
> Shouldn't be a problem.  We can get you a wire.
>
> PEACE!
> Josh Cronemeyer
>
>
> Carl Karsten <carl at personnelware.com>
> Sent by: chicago-bounces+jcroneme=thoughtworks.com at python.org
>
> 12/10/08 09:43 AM
>
> Please respond to
> The Chicago Python Users Group <chicago at python.org>
> To
> The Chicago Python Users Group <chicago at python.org>
> cc
> Subject
> Re: [Chicago] Tomorrow's meeting and what to do if you are captured by
>  the security ninjas.
>
>
>
>
> Josh,
>
> Add me to the RSVP list, and...
>
> Is there going to be an Internet connection?  and if so, pretty please can I
> have a wire?  I am hoping to do a live stream, and wifi can work, but adds a
> layer of problem that I would rather not deal with.
>
> Carl K
> _______________________________________________
> Chicago mailing list
> Chicago at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Chicago mailing list
> Chicago at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>
>



-- 
sheila

From jcroneme at thoughtworks.com  Fri Dec 12 00:26:28 2008
From: jcroneme at thoughtworks.com (Josh Cronemeyer)
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2008 17:26:28 -0600
Subject: [Chicago] Tomorrow's meeting and what to do if you are
 captured	by the security ninjas.
In-Reply-To: <a68ced640812111524v5372853dic5552eea50b7bc45@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <OFCC5F0191.E0AE0AA0-ON8625751C.0080BB9F-8625751C.0081145E@thoughtworks.com>

What is wrong with a projector?  anyway... we can scare up a monitor too.

PEACE!
Josh Cronemeyer



"sheila miguez" <shekay at pobox.com> 
Sent by: chicago-bounces+jcroneme=thoughtworks.com at python.org
12/11/08 05:24 PM
Please respond to
The Chicago Python Users Group <chicago at python.org>


To
"The Chicago Python Users Group" <chicago at python.org>
cc

Subject
Re: [Chicago] Tomorrow's meeting and what to do if you are captured     by 
the security ninjas.






He wants to know if he needs to bring a monitor or if he can borrow one.

On Wed, Dec 10, 2008 at 12:59 PM, Josh Cronemeyer
<jcroneme at thoughtworks.com> wrote:
>
> Shouldn't be a problem.  We can get you a wire.
>
> PEACE!
> Josh Cronemeyer
>
>
> Carl Karsten <carl at personnelware.com>
> Sent by: chicago-bounces+jcroneme=thoughtworks.com at python.org
>
> 12/10/08 09:43 AM
>
> Please respond to
> The Chicago Python Users Group <chicago at python.org>
> To
> The Chicago Python Users Group <chicago at python.org>
> cc
> Subject
> Re: [Chicago] Tomorrow's meeting and what to do if you are captured by
>  the security ninjas.
>
>
>
>
> Josh,
>
> Add me to the RSVP list, and...
>
> Is there going to be an Internet connection?  and if so, pretty please 
can I
> have a wire?  I am hoping to do a live stream, and wifi can work, but 
adds a
> layer of problem that I would rather not deal with.
>
> Carl K
> _______________________________________________
> Chicago mailing list
> Chicago at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Chicago mailing list
> Chicago at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>
>



-- 
sheila
_______________________________________________
Chicago mailing list
Chicago at python.org
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago

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From shekay at pobox.com  Fri Dec 12 00:35:05 2008
From: shekay at pobox.com (sheila miguez)
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2008 17:35:05 -0600
Subject: [Chicago] Tomorrow's meeting and what to do if you are captured
	by the security ninjas.
In-Reply-To: <OFCC5F0191.E0AE0AA0-ON8625751C.0080BB9F-8625751C.0081145E@thoughtworks.com>
References: <a68ced640812111524v5372853dic5552eea50b7bc45@mail.gmail.com>
	<OFCC5F0191.E0AE0AA0-ON8625751C.0080BB9F-8625751C.0081145E@thoughtworks.com>
Message-ID: <a68ced640812111535s71100a13gc2b66486b020f18d@mail.gmail.com>

I think there must be a rube-goldbergian plan for streaming the meeting.

On Thu, Dec 11, 2008 at 5:26 PM, Josh Cronemeyer
<jcroneme at thoughtworks.com> wrote:
>
> What is wrong with a projector?  anyway... we can scare up a monitor too.
>
> PEACE!
> Josh Cronemeyer
>
>
> "sheila miguez" <shekay at pobox.com>
> Sent by: chicago-bounces+jcroneme=thoughtworks.com at python.org
>
> 12/11/08 05:24 PM
>
> Please respond to
> The Chicago Python Users Group <chicago at python.org>
> To
> "The Chicago Python Users Group" <chicago at python.org>
> cc
> Subject
> Re: [Chicago] Tomorrow's meeting and what to do if you are captured
>  by the security ninjas.
>
>
>
>
> He wants to know if he needs to bring a monitor or if he can borrow one.
>
> On Wed, Dec 10, 2008 at 12:59 PM, Josh Cronemeyer
> <jcroneme at thoughtworks.com> wrote:
>>
>> Shouldn't be a problem.  We can get you a wire.
>>
>> PEACE!
>> Josh Cronemeyer
>>
>>
>> Carl Karsten <carl at personnelware.com>
>> Sent by: chicago-bounces+jcroneme=thoughtworks.com at python.org
>>
>> 12/10/08 09:43 AM
>>
>> Please respond to
>> The Chicago Python Users Group <chicago at python.org>
>> To
>> The Chicago Python Users Group <chicago at python.org>
>> cc
>> Subject
>> Re: [Chicago] Tomorrow's meeting and what to do if you are captured by
>>  the security ninjas.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Josh,
>>
>> Add me to the RSVP list, and...
>>
>> Is there going to be an Internet connection?  and if so, pretty please can
>> I
>> have a wire?  I am hoping to do a live stream, and wifi can work, but adds
>> a
>> layer of problem that I would rather not deal with.
>>
>> Carl K
>> _______________________________________________
>> Chicago mailing list
>> Chicago at python.org
>> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Chicago mailing list
>> Chicago at python.org
>> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>>
>>
>
>
>
> --
> sheila
> _______________________________________________
> Chicago mailing list
> Chicago at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Chicago mailing list
> Chicago at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>
>



-- 
sheila

From jcroneme at thoughtworks.com  Fri Dec 12 00:33:40 2008
From: jcroneme at thoughtworks.com (Josh Cronemeyer)
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2008 17:33:40 -0600
Subject: [Chicago] Tomorrow's meeting and what to do if you are
 captured	by the security ninjas.
In-Reply-To: <a68ced640812111535s71100a13gc2b66486b020f18d@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <OF98EE5ABC.7C93DA63-ON8625751C.0081635B-8625751C.0081BD07@thoughtworks.com>

I'll start setting up the dominoes...

PEACE!
Josh Cronemeyer



"sheila miguez" <shekay at pobox.com> 
Sent by: chicago-bounces+jcroneme=thoughtworks.com at python.org
12/11/08 05:35 PM
Please respond to
The Chicago Python Users Group <chicago at python.org>


To
"The Chicago Python Users Group" <chicago at python.org>
cc

Subject
Re: [Chicago] Tomorrow's meeting and what to do if you are captured     by 
the security ninjas.






I think there must be a rube-goldbergian plan for streaming the meeting.

On Thu, Dec 11, 2008 at 5:26 PM, Josh Cronemeyer
<jcroneme at thoughtworks.com> wrote:
>
> What is wrong with a projector?  anyway... we can scare up a monitor 
too.
>
> PEACE!
> Josh Cronemeyer
>
>
> "sheila miguez" <shekay at pobox.com>
> Sent by: chicago-bounces+jcroneme=thoughtworks.com at python.org
>
> 12/11/08 05:24 PM
>
> Please respond to
> The Chicago Python Users Group <chicago at python.org>
> To
> "The Chicago Python Users Group" <chicago at python.org>
> cc
> Subject
> Re: [Chicago] Tomorrow's meeting and what to do if you are captured
>  by the security ninjas.
>
>
>
>
> He wants to know if he needs to bring a monitor or if he can borrow one.
>
> On Wed, Dec 10, 2008 at 12:59 PM, Josh Cronemeyer
> <jcroneme at thoughtworks.com> wrote:
>>
>> Shouldn't be a problem.  We can get you a wire.
>>
>> PEACE!
>> Josh Cronemeyer
>>
>>
>> Carl Karsten <carl at personnelware.com>
>> Sent by: chicago-bounces+jcroneme=thoughtworks.com at python.org
>>
>> 12/10/08 09:43 AM
>>
>> Please respond to
>> The Chicago Python Users Group <chicago at python.org>
>> To
>> The Chicago Python Users Group <chicago at python.org>
>> cc
>> Subject
>> Re: [Chicago] Tomorrow's meeting and what to do if you are captured by
>>  the security ninjas.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Josh,
>>
>> Add me to the RSVP list, and...
>>
>> Is there going to be an Internet connection?  and if so, pretty please 
can
>> I
>> have a wire?  I am hoping to do a live stream, and wifi can work, but 
adds
>> a
>> layer of problem that I would rather not deal with.
>>
>> Carl K
>> _______________________________________________
>> Chicago mailing list
>> Chicago at python.org
>> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Chicago mailing list
>> Chicago at python.org
>> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>>
>>
>
>
>
> --
> sheila
> _______________________________________________
> Chicago mailing list
> Chicago at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Chicago mailing list
> Chicago at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>
>



-- 
sheila
_______________________________________________
Chicago mailing list
Chicago at python.org
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago

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From orblivion at gmail.com  Fri Dec 12 00:37:27 2008
From: orblivion at gmail.com (Dan Krol)
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2008 17:37:27 -0600
Subject: [Chicago] Tomorrow's meeting and what to do if you are captured
	by the security ninjas.
In-Reply-To: <a68ced640812111535s71100a13gc2b66486b020f18d@mail.gmail.com>
References: <a68ced640812111524v5372853dic5552eea50b7bc45@mail.gmail.com>
	<OFCC5F0191.E0AE0AA0-ON8625751C.0080BB9F-8625751C.0081145E@thoughtworks.com>
	<a68ced640812111535s71100a13gc2b66486b020f18d@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <94e10adf0812111537n668e821ao91d64e608b8acaea@mail.gmail.com>

I'll bring the slinky and the alarm clock.

On Thu, Dec 11, 2008 at 5:35 PM, sheila miguez <shekay at pobox.com> wrote:
> I think there must be a rube-goldbergian plan for streaming the meeting.
>
> On Thu, Dec 11, 2008 at 5:26 PM, Josh Cronemeyer
> <jcroneme at thoughtworks.com> wrote:
>>
>> What is wrong with a projector?  anyway... we can scare up a monitor too.
>>
>> PEACE!
>> Josh Cronemeyer
>>
>>
>> "sheila miguez" <shekay at pobox.com>
>> Sent by: chicago-bounces+jcroneme=thoughtworks.com at python.org
>>
>> 12/11/08 05:24 PM
>>
>> Please respond to
>> The Chicago Python Users Group <chicago at python.org>
>> To
>> "The Chicago Python Users Group" <chicago at python.org>
>> cc
>> Subject
>> Re: [Chicago] Tomorrow's meeting and what to do if you are captured
>>  by the security ninjas.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> He wants to know if he needs to bring a monitor or if he can borrow one.
>>
>> On Wed, Dec 10, 2008 at 12:59 PM, Josh Cronemeyer
>> <jcroneme at thoughtworks.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> Shouldn't be a problem.  We can get you a wire.
>>>
>>> PEACE!
>>> Josh Cronemeyer
>>>
>>>
>>> Carl Karsten <carl at personnelware.com>
>>> Sent by: chicago-bounces+jcroneme=thoughtworks.com at python.org
>>>
>>> 12/10/08 09:43 AM
>>>
>>> Please respond to
>>> The Chicago Python Users Group <chicago at python.org>
>>> To
>>> The Chicago Python Users Group <chicago at python.org>
>>> cc
>>> Subject
>>> Re: [Chicago] Tomorrow's meeting and what to do if you are captured by
>>>  the security ninjas.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Josh,
>>>
>>> Add me to the RSVP list, and...
>>>
>>> Is there going to be an Internet connection?  and if so, pretty please can
>>> I
>>> have a wire?  I am hoping to do a live stream, and wifi can work, but adds
>>> a
>>> layer of problem that I would rather not deal with.
>>>
>>> Carl K
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Chicago mailing list
>>> Chicago at python.org
>>> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Chicago mailing list
>>> Chicago at python.org
>>> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> sheila
>> _______________________________________________
>> Chicago mailing list
>> Chicago at python.org
>> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Chicago mailing list
>> Chicago at python.org
>> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>>
>>
>
>
>
> --
> sheila
> _______________________________________________
> Chicago mailing list
> Chicago at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>

From tim.saylor at gmail.com  Fri Dec 12 00:38:48 2008
From: tim.saylor at gmail.com (Tim Saylor)
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2008 17:38:48 -0600
Subject: [Chicago] Tomorrow's meeting and what to do if you are captured
	by the security ninjas.
In-Reply-To: <94e10adf0812111537n668e821ao91d64e608b8acaea@mail.gmail.com>
References: <a68ced640812111524v5372853dic5552eea50b7bc45@mail.gmail.com>
	<OFCC5F0191.E0AE0AA0-ON8625751C.0080BB9F-8625751C.0081145E@thoughtworks.com>
	<a68ced640812111535s71100a13gc2b66486b020f18d@mail.gmail.com>
	<94e10adf0812111537n668e821ao91d64e608b8acaea@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <9fb45b0b0812111538n355f9fd5l4383f01167dc0e2a@mail.gmail.com>

Do you have anything we can use to "flip the man into the pan"?

On Thu, Dec 11, 2008 at 5:37 PM, Dan Krol <orblivion at gmail.com> wrote:

> I'll bring the slinky and the alarm clock.
>
> On Thu, Dec 11, 2008 at 5:35 PM, sheila miguez <shekay at pobox.com> wrote:
> > I think there must be a rube-goldbergian plan for streaming the meeting.
> >
> > On Thu, Dec 11, 2008 at 5:26 PM, Josh Cronemeyer
> > <jcroneme at thoughtworks.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> What is wrong with a projector?  anyway... we can scare up a monitor
> too.
> >>
> >> PEACE!
> >> Josh Cronemeyer
> >>
> >>
> >> "sheila miguez" <shekay at pobox.com>
> >> Sent by: chicago-bounces+jcroneme=thoughtworks.com at python.org
> >>
> >> 12/11/08 05:24 PM
> >>
> >> Please respond to
> >> The Chicago Python Users Group <chicago at python.org>
> >> To
> >> "The Chicago Python Users Group" <chicago at python.org>
> >> cc
> >> Subject
> >> Re: [Chicago] Tomorrow's meeting and what to do if you are captured
> >>  by the security ninjas.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> He wants to know if he needs to bring a monitor or if he can borrow one.
> >>
> >> On Wed, Dec 10, 2008 at 12:59 PM, Josh Cronemeyer
> >> <jcroneme at thoughtworks.com> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> Shouldn't be a problem.  We can get you a wire.
> >>>
> >>> PEACE!
> >>> Josh Cronemeyer
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Carl Karsten <carl at personnelware.com>
> >>> Sent by: chicago-bounces+jcroneme=thoughtworks.com at python.org
> >>>
> >>> 12/10/08 09:43 AM
> >>>
> >>> Please respond to
> >>> The Chicago Python Users Group <chicago at python.org>
> >>> To
> >>> The Chicago Python Users Group <chicago at python.org>
> >>> cc
> >>> Subject
> >>> Re: [Chicago] Tomorrow's meeting and what to do if you are captured by
> >>>  the security ninjas.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Josh,
> >>>
> >>> Add me to the RSVP list, and...
> >>>
> >>> Is there going to be an Internet connection?  and if so, pretty please
> can
> >>> I
> >>> have a wire?  I am hoping to do a live stream, and wifi can work, but
> adds
> >>> a
> >>> layer of problem that I would rather not deal with.
> >>>
> >>> Carl K
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> Chicago mailing list
> >>> Chicago at python.org
> >>> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> Chicago mailing list
> >>> Chicago at python.org
> >>> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >> sheila
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Chicago mailing list
> >> Chicago at python.org
> >> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
> >>
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Chicago mailing list
> >> Chicago at python.org
> >> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > sheila
> > _______________________________________________
> > Chicago mailing list
> > Chicago at python.org
> > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
> >
> _______________________________________________
> Chicago mailing list
> Chicago at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>
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From tcp at mac.com  Fri Dec 12 01:01:27 2008
From: tcp at mac.com (Ted Pollari)
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2008 16:01:27 -0800
Subject: [Chicago] Tomorrow's meeting and what to do if you are
 captured	by the security ninjas.
In-Reply-To: <9fb45b0b0812111538n355f9fd5l4383f01167dc0e2a@mail.gmail.com>
References: <a68ced640812111524v5372853dic5552eea50b7bc45@mail.gmail.com>
	<OFCC5F0191.E0AE0AA0-ON8625751C.0080BB9F-8625751C.0081145E@thoughtworks.com>
	<a68ced640812111535s71100a13gc2b66486b020f18d@mail.gmail.com>
	<94e10adf0812111537n668e821ao91d64e608b8acaea@mail.gmail.com>
	<9fb45b0b0812111538n355f9fd5l4383f01167dc0e2a@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <BEA90BC5-6EAF-432B-BA8B-0A649FF3D355@mac.com>


If there's going to be fire or sharp bladed items used in an  
improbable way, I'm definitely tuning in!

> Do you have anything we can use to "flip the man into the pan"?
>
> On Thu, Dec 11, 2008 at 5:37 PM, Dan Krol <orblivion at gmail.com> wrote:
> I'll bring the slinky and the alarm clock.
>
> On Thu, Dec 11, 2008 at 5:35 PM, sheila miguez <shekay at pobox.com>  
> wrote:
> > I think there must be a rube-goldbergian plan for streaming the  
> meeting.
> >
> > On Thu, Dec 11, 2008 at 5:26 PM, Josh Cronemeyer
> > <jcroneme at thoughtworks.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> What is wrong with a projector?  anyway... we can scare up a  
> monitor too.
> >>


From brian at sixthw.com  Fri Dec 12 01:29:21 2008
From: brian at sixthw.com (Brian Boyer)
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2008 18:29:21 -0600
Subject: [Chicago] Django + Facebook Connect + GPL = Woo!
In-Reply-To: <BEA90BC5-6EAF-432B-BA8B-0A649FF3D355@mac.com>
References: <a68ced640812111524v5372853dic5552eea50b7bc45@mail.gmail.com>	<OFCC5F0191.E0AE0AA0-ON8625751C.0080BB9F-8625751C.0081145E@thoughtworks.com>	<a68ced640812111535s71100a13gc2b66486b020f18d@mail.gmail.com>	<94e10adf0812111537n668e821ao91d64e608b8acaea@mail.gmail.com>	<9fb45b0b0812111538n355f9fd5l4383f01167dc0e2a@mail.gmail.com>
	<BEA90BC5-6EAF-432B-BA8B-0A649FF3D355@mac.com>
Message-ID: <4941B061.8070402@sixthw.com>

I can't make it tonite, but I wanted to let the cat out of the bag... 
For our final project at Northwestern's journalism program for software 
developers, Ryan Mark and I built a Django-based online news project 
called News Mixer (http://newsmixer.us).

Interesting to ya'll may be that we're using the brand-spanking new 
Facebook Connect for authentication, to post your activity to Facebook, 
and to show what your friends are up to. It uses pyFacebook rather 
heavily, but implements some new stuff for using Connect to fire up 
Django users.

The code's GPL'ed and out now: http://code.google.com/p/newsmixer/

We're hoping that somebody makes fun stuff with it.  (Extract a Facebook 
Connect Django Plugin? Extend pyFacebook?)

For more on Connect, how we use it, and what I think of it (useful, 
creeps me out), and links to our project, etc. check out: 
http://sixthw.com/2008/12/11/how-we-built-news-mixer-part-2-the-trouble-with-facebook-connect/

b


From g at rrett.us.com  Fri Dec 12 23:34:17 2008
From: g at rrett.us.com (Garrett Smith)
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2008 16:34:17 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [Chicago] Explanation of bzr-svn weirdness
In-Reply-To: <2036199395.19119341229121109606.JavaMail.root@mail-3.01.com>
Message-ID: <1407099188.19119761229121256948.JavaMail.root@mail-3.01.com>

When demoing Bazaar's interface to Subversion last night, I featured some bizarre (sic) behavior where an old commit history mysteriously appeared intermingled with the sample commits. 

Here's what was going on... 

The Bazzar Subversion plugin uses a system-wide cache for performance reasons. In a previous dry run, I had committed to a Subversion repo of the same name. I assumed I could simply delete the Subversion repo directory to start anew. Not so. 

In any typical situation, of course, this wouldn't happen as Subversion repos aren't routinely deleted and restored. And if for whatever reason that happens, you just need to clear the bzr-svn plugin cache. 

I apologize for any trauma, mental or otherwise, this may have caused. 

Garrett 
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From bray at sent.com  Fri Dec 12 23:47:29 2008
From: bray at sent.com (Brian Ray)
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2008 16:47:29 -0600
Subject: [Chicago] Explanation of bzr-svn weirdness
In-Reply-To: <1407099188.19119761229121256948.JavaMail.root@mail-3.01.com>
References: <1407099188.19119761229121256948.JavaMail.root@mail-3.01.com>
Message-ID: <305EA7FD-62A7-4155-8A00-5B3FE8EA56C4@sent.com>


On Dec 12, 2008, at 4:34 PM, Garrett Smith wrote:
>
> I apologize for any trauma, mental or otherwise, this may have caused.


Oh my, I have not been able to sleep since. This is *such* a relief.

Nonetheless, thanks for the presentation.  I am much clearer on how  
distributed and centralized workflows have their places and can overlap.

That was a great meeting.... Best yet.

Brian Ray




From bray at sent.com  Fri Dec 12 23:55:30 2008
From: bray at sent.com (Brian Ray)
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2008 16:55:30 -0600
Subject: [Chicago] Venue for January's special P3K meeting is Roosevelt
	University's Auditorium Building
Message-ID: <D6218B9A-5930-4C66-A61A-CF04AB2F6E82@sent.com>



To add to the list (Monadnock, Treadless, 444 N Michigan, 111 West  
Adams Street, Goose Island, my basement, ...)  of architecturally  
significant buildings where we have held ChiPy meetings, I was pleased  
last night  (crowded house) to announce we will be holding this  
meeting at Roosevelt University's Auditorium Building <http://www.cityofchicago.org/Landmarks/A/Auditorium.html 
 >.  Same place as the ACM meetings, btw.

This meeting is dedicated to the monumental release of Python 3000.  
All talks should pertain to this new language release.

We are working on arrangements to stream the content internationally  
to ChiPy member abroad. It sounds like the test last night worked.  
Good job Carl!

This will be our best...

-- Brian Ray




From carl at personnelware.com  Sat Dec 13 00:10:32 2008
From: carl at personnelware.com (Carl Karsten)
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2008 17:10:32 -0600
Subject: [Chicago] Venue for January's special P3K meeting is Roosevelt
 University's Auditorium Building
In-Reply-To: <D6218B9A-5930-4C66-A61A-CF04AB2F6E82@sent.com>
References: <D6218B9A-5930-4C66-A61A-CF04AB2F6E82@sent.com>
Message-ID: <4942EF68.4000207@personnelware.com>

Brian Ray wrote:
> 
> 
> To add to the list (Monadnock, Treadless, 444 N Michigan, 111 West Adams 
> Street, Goose Island, my basement, ...)  of architecturally significant 
> buildings where we have held ChiPy meetings, I was pleased last night  
> (crowded house) to announce we will be holding this meeting at Roosevelt 
> University's Auditorium Building 
> <http://www.cityofchicago.org/Landmarks/A/Auditorium.html>.  Same place 
> as the ACM meetings, btw.
> 
> This meeting is dedicated to the monumental release of Python 3000. All 
> talks should pertain to this new language release.

I am considering a talk about 3k for the masses.  I have not really figured out 
what I will talk about, so I have 0.0 clue if it would be of interest to 
pythoners.  But it would be awesome for beginners.  I would be up for doing 30 
min of it before the official meeting.

> 
> We are working on arrangements to stream the content internationally to 
> ChiPy member abroad. It sounds like the test last night worked. Good job 
> Carl!

Your welcome :)

> 
> This will be our best...

meeting heard round the world!

Carl K

From ed at leafe.com  Sat Dec 13 01:38:30 2008
From: ed at leafe.com (Ed Leafe)
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2008 18:38:30 -0600
Subject: [Chicago] Venue for January's special P3K meeting is Roosevelt
	University's Auditorium Building
In-Reply-To: <4942EF68.4000207@personnelware.com>
References: <D6218B9A-5930-4C66-A61A-CF04AB2F6E82@sent.com>
	<4942EF68.4000207@personnelware.com>
Message-ID: <01B3EA56-37D3-417C-9CE3-4A2AA4CB4BF7@leafe.com>

On Dec 12, 2008, at 5:10 PM, Carl Karsten wrote:

>> We are working on arrangements to stream the content  
>> internationally to ChiPy member abroad. It sounds like the test  
>> last night worked. Good job Carl!
>
> Your welcome :)
>
>> This will be our best...
>
> meeting heard round the world!

	Well, at least to San Antonio!


-- Ed Leafe




From tliron at uchicago.edu  Thu Dec 11 19:05:54 2008
From: tliron at uchicago.edu (Tal Liron)
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2008 12:05:54 -0600
Subject: [Chicago] Dec. meeting RSVPs - or - how to beat the security
 ninjas
In-Reply-To: <OF39B7DF20.B7D1F91B-ON86257513.0060F251-86257513.0062E181@thoughtworks.com>
References: <OF39B7DF20.B7D1F91B-ON86257513.0060F251-86257513.0062E181@thoughtworks.com>
Message-ID: <49415682.6040508@uchicago.edu>

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From maney at two14.net  Sat Dec 13 16:31:04 2008
From: maney at two14.net (Martin Maney)
Date: Sat, 13 Dec 2008 09:31:04 -0600
Subject: [Chicago] Venue for January's special P3K meeting is
	Roosevelt	University's Auditorium Building
In-Reply-To: <D6218B9A-5930-4C66-A61A-CF04AB2F6E82@sent.com>
References: <D6218B9A-5930-4C66-A61A-CF04AB2F6E82@sent.com>
Message-ID: <20081213153104.GA5071@furrr.two14.net>

On Fri, Dec 12, 2008 at 04:55:30PM -0600, Brian Ray wrote:
> We are working on arrangements to stream the content internationally to 
> ChiPy member abroad. It sounds like the test last night worked. Good job 
> Carl!

Carl did nice work, though there were a few odd issues - the firewire
connection to the camera just went away once that I saw, and Ted was
having difficulties at least a good part of the time.  I was amazed by
what VLC did when Carl intentionally "bounced" the stream at one
point - had no idea it was buffering everything and could rewind back
to the beginning again after it spawned another window for the new
stream.

But it was quite watchable.

-- 
In the details, the lovely details, the devil sleeps tonight!


From carl at personnelware.com  Sat Dec 13 21:16:57 2008
From: carl at personnelware.com (Carl Karsten)
Date: Sat, 13 Dec 2008 14:16:57 -0600
Subject: [Chicago] live stream blender meeting today 3:00 Mercury Cafe
Message-ID: <49441839.9070106@personnelware.com>

http://giss.tv/interface/?mp=CarlFK.ogg

I would appreciate some stats on what does/doesn't work.

Carl K

From cstejerean at gmail.com  Sun Dec 14 03:14:22 2008
From: cstejerean at gmail.com (Cosmin Stejerean)
Date: Sat, 13 Dec 2008 20:14:22 -0600
Subject: [Chicago] live stream blender meeting today 3:00 Mercury Cafe
In-Reply-To: <49441839.9070106@personnelware.com>
References: <49441839.9070106@personnelware.com>
Message-ID: <276266d0812131814t5074e7a3v618e4b4317529a94@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Dec 13, 2008 at 2:16 PM, Carl Karsten <carl at personnelware.com>wrote:

> http://giss.tv/interface/?mp=CarlFK.ogg
>
> I would appreciate some stats on what does/doesn't work.
>

Doesn't work for me. No matter what I do the screen remains black and
nothing really happens (using their flash player). I haven't tried VLC.

-- 
Cosmin Stejerean
http://www.offbytwo.com
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From carl at personnelware.com  Sun Dec 14 08:24:30 2008
From: carl at personnelware.com (Carl Karsten)
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2008 01:24:30 -0600
Subject: [Chicago] live stream blender meeting today 3:00 Mercury Cafe
In-Reply-To: <276266d0812131814t5074e7a3v618e4b4317529a94@mail.gmail.com>
References: <49441839.9070106@personnelware.com>
	<276266d0812131814t5074e7a3v618e4b4317529a94@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4944B4AE.7020608@personnelware.com>

Cosmin Stejerean wrote:
> On Sat, Dec 13, 2008 at 2:16 PM, Carl Karsten <carl at personnelware.com>wrote:
> 
>> http://giss.tv/interface/?mp=CarlFK.ogg
>>
>> I would appreciate some stats on what does/doesn't work.
>>
> 
> Doesn't work for me. No matter what I do the screen remains black and
> nothing really happens (using their flash player). I haven't tried VLC.

Sorry, should have fired up my laptop just to say "meeting canceled do to lack 
of meeting."  :)  Thanks for trying and reporting though.

It was just Chris and I hanging out drinking coffee. I didn't even bring my 
laptop in from the car.

Carl K

From skip at pobox.com  Thu Dec 18 01:31:00 2008
From: skip at pobox.com (skip at pobox.com)
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2008 18:31:00 -0600
Subject: [Chicago] Question about a non-local job posting
Message-ID: <18761.39364.634764.495575@montanaro-dyndns-org.local>

I help moderate the chipy-announce and chicago mailing lists.  There is a
held job posting in chipy-announce right now which is for a Python-related
job but which is not local to Chicago (it's a telecommute).  I'm inclined to
reject the posting and tell the guy to post to jobs at python.org because it's
non-local, but if people want to see that sort of stuff, I'm willing to
approve the posting.  I guess I'm saying I'm -0 on the idea.

Skip


From emperorcezar at gmail.com  Thu Dec 18 01:41:34 2008
From: emperorcezar at gmail.com (Adam Jenkins)
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2008 18:41:34 -0600
Subject: [Chicago] Question about a non-local job posting
In-Reply-To: <18761.39364.634764.495575@montanaro-dyndns-org.local>
References: <18761.39364.634764.495575@montanaro-dyndns-org.local>
Message-ID: <58a5f2220812171641j3756b0f1l21c0adc63b2ad26b@mail.gmail.com>

I'm +1 on it, local people can get the job.

On Wed, Dec 17, 2008 at 6:31 PM, <skip at pobox.com> wrote:

> I help moderate the chipy-announce and chicago mailing lists.  There is a
> held job posting in chipy-announce right now which is for a Python-related
> job but which is not local to Chicago (it's a telecommute).  I'm inclined
> to
> reject the posting and tell the guy to post to jobs at python.org because
> it's
> non-local, but if people want to see that sort of stuff, I'm willing to
> approve the posting.  I guess I'm saying I'm -0 on the idea.
>
> Skip
>
> _______________________________________________
> Chicago mailing list
> Chicago at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>
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From wlevin at bringit.com  Mon Dec 15 20:45:10 2008
From: wlevin at bringit.com (Woodrow H. Levin)
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2008 13:45:10 -0600
Subject: [Chicago] Django Developer With Design Skills Needed
Message-ID: <9E9C3ED2DDA848ED843FA06325E1752E@Woody01>

My company BringIt, LLC ( <http://www.bringit.com/> www.BringIt.com) has
just launched our Open Beta and we need further assistance in making updates
to the code and framework. Additionally, the developer will need to
construct database query's for the internal accounting system within the
framework. BringIt.com is a website which allows console based gamers (Xbox,
PS3, PS2, Wii) to play against each other for real money, legally and
safely. We have one on one and multiplayer bracket style tournaments and
people use Pay Pal and CC to deposit monies; therefore knowledge of payment
processing systems is a must.

 

The job will be in assistant the project managers and CEO in any capacity
needed to fix bugs as well as continue to develop the usability and
reporting structure of the database. This job will be ongoing with the
opportunity for permanent placement if desired and a successful working
relationship is formed. It is preferred that the candidate be based in or
around Chicago.

 

THANK YOU!

 

 



 

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From bray at sent.com  Thu Dec 18 15:06:19 2008
From: bray at sent.com (Brian Ray)
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2008 08:06:19 -0600
Subject: [Chicago] Question about a non-local job posting
In-Reply-To: <18761.39364.634764.495575@montanaro-dyndns-org.local>
References: <18761.39364.634764.495575@montanaro-dyndns-org.local>
Message-ID: <4924A36E-D3C6-40B7-97A5-29E7EC94C81B@sent.com>


On Dec 17, 2008, at 6:31 PM, skip at pobox.com wrote:

> job but which is not local to Chicago (it's a telecommute).


Hi Skip,

I really do not have a problem if it's a telecommute job.  What are  
the policies for other groups/lists ?

Brian Ray




From shekay at pobox.com  Thu Dec 18 18:13:22 2008
From: shekay at pobox.com (sheila miguez)
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2008 11:13:22 -0600
Subject: [Chicago] Language comparisons
Message-ID: <a68ced640812180913t1fa74cafwd393280d9d898e41@mail.gmail.com>

I vote for the topic, and I may be able to have a good presenter on
tcl/tk assuming Thursdays work for him. He would be awesome and I
think tcl is better than python in some regards so I'd like for him to
provide comparisons to show strengths and weaknesses.

-- 
sheila

From varmaa at gmail.com  Thu Dec 18 18:17:30 2008
From: varmaa at gmail.com (Atul Varma)
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2008 09:17:30 -0800
Subject: [Chicago] Language comparisons
In-Reply-To: <a68ced640812180913t1fa74cafwd393280d9d898e41@mail.gmail.com>
References: <a68ced640812180913t1fa74cafwd393280d9d898e41@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <361b27370812180917m636bae4dv9a031282b5869741@mail.gmail.com>

How does one pronounce tcl/tk?  I always say "tickle-tick" since it's always
written that way, but I've never used it.

On Thu, Dec 18, 2008 at 9:13 AM, sheila miguez <shekay at pobox.com> wrote:

> I vote for the topic, and I may be able to have a good presenter on
> tcl/tk assuming Thursdays work for him. He would be awesome and I
> think tcl is better than python in some regards so I'd like for him to
> provide comparisons to show strengths and weaknesses.
>
> --
> sheila
> _______________________________________________
> Chicago mailing list
> Chicago at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>
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From bryan.oakley at gmail.com  Thu Dec 18 18:27:07 2008
From: bryan.oakley at gmail.com (Bryan Oakley)
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2008 11:27:07 -0600
Subject: [Chicago] Language comparisons
In-Reply-To: <361b27370812180917m636bae4dv9a031282b5869741@mail.gmail.com>
References: <a68ced640812180913t1fa74cafwd393280d9d898e41@mail.gmail.com>
	<361b27370812180917m636bae4dv9a031282b5869741@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <7d5312b00812180927s97ef216jce576874fbdc3524@mail.gmail.com>

tickle tee kay

On Thu, Dec 18, 2008 at 11:17 AM, Atul Varma <varmaa at gmail.com> wrote:
> How does one pronounce tcl/tk?  I always say "tickle-tick" since it's always
> written that way, but I've never used it.
>
> On Thu, Dec 18, 2008 at 9:13 AM, sheila miguez <shekay at pobox.com> wrote:
>>
>> I vote for the topic, and I may be able to have a good presenter on
>> tcl/tk assuming Thursdays work for him. He would be awesome and I
>> think tcl is better than python in some regards so I'd like for him to
>> provide comparisons to show strengths and weaknesses.
>>
>> --
>> sheila
>> _______________________________________________
>> Chicago mailing list
>> Chicago at python.org
>> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Chicago mailing list
> Chicago at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>
>

From shekay at pobox.com  Thu Dec 18 18:30:22 2008
From: shekay at pobox.com (sheila miguez)
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2008 11:30:22 -0600
Subject: [Chicago] Language comparisons
In-Reply-To: <7d5312b00812180927s97ef216jce576874fbdc3524@mail.gmail.com>
References: <a68ced640812180913t1fa74cafwd393280d9d898e41@mail.gmail.com>
	<361b27370812180917m636bae4dv9a031282b5869741@mail.gmail.com>
	<7d5312b00812180927s97ef216jce576874fbdc3524@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <a68ced640812180930p60edb7b4v7a3f97fe97d2a788@mail.gmail.com>

Yes, and you get weird looks from people when you tell them you were
at a "tickle" conference. :)

On Thu, Dec 18, 2008 at 11:27 AM, Bryan Oakley <bryan.oakley at gmail.com> wrote:
> tickle tee kay
>
> On Thu, Dec 18, 2008 at 11:17 AM, Atul Varma <varmaa at gmail.com> wrote:
>> How does one pronounce tcl/tk?  I always say "tickle-tick" since it's always
>> written that way, but I've never used it.
>>
>> On Thu, Dec 18, 2008 at 9:13 AM, sheila miguez <shekay at pobox.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> I vote for the topic, and I may be able to have a good presenter on
>>> tcl/tk assuming Thursdays work for him. He would be awesome and I
>>> think tcl is better than python in some regards so I'd like for him to
>>> provide comparisons to show strengths and weaknesses.
>>>
>>> --
>>> sheila
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Chicago mailing list
>>> Chicago at python.org
>>> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Chicago mailing list
>> Chicago at python.org
>> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>>
>>
> _______________________________________________
> Chicago mailing list
> Chicago at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>



-- 
sheila

From varmaa at gmail.com  Thu Dec 18 18:31:20 2008
From: varmaa at gmail.com (Atul Varma)
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2008 09:31:20 -0800
Subject: [Chicago] Language comparisons
In-Reply-To: <a68ced640812180930p60edb7b4v7a3f97fe97d2a788@mail.gmail.com>
References: <a68ced640812180913t1fa74cafwd393280d9d898e41@mail.gmail.com>
	<361b27370812180917m636bae4dv9a031282b5869741@mail.gmail.com>
	<7d5312b00812180927s97ef216jce576874fbdc3524@mail.gmail.com>
	<a68ced640812180930p60edb7b4v7a3f97fe97d2a788@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <361b27370812180931p48088866yda21064621c7c8b5@mail.gmail.com>

Lol!  Now I wish Python was called Tickle...

On Thu, Dec 18, 2008 at 9:30 AM, sheila miguez <shekay at pobox.com> wrote:

> Yes, and you get weird looks from people when you tell them you were
> at a "tickle" conference. :)
>
> On Thu, Dec 18, 2008 at 11:27 AM, Bryan Oakley <bryan.oakley at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > tickle tee kay
> >
> > On Thu, Dec 18, 2008 at 11:17 AM, Atul Varma <varmaa at gmail.com> wrote:
> >> How does one pronounce tcl/tk?  I always say "tickle-tick" since it's
> always
> >> written that way, but I've never used it.
> >>
> >> On Thu, Dec 18, 2008 at 9:13 AM, sheila miguez <shekay at pobox.com>
> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> I vote for the topic, and I may be able to have a good presenter on
> >>> tcl/tk assuming Thursdays work for him. He would be awesome and I
> >>> think tcl is better than python in some regards so I'd like for him to
> >>> provide comparisons to show strengths and weaknesses.
> >>>
> >>> --
> >>> sheila
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> Chicago mailing list
> >>> Chicago at python.org
> >>> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
> >>
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Chicago mailing list
> >> Chicago at python.org
> >> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
> >>
> >>
> > _______________________________________________
> > Chicago mailing list
> > Chicago at python.org
> > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
> >
>
>
>
> --
> sheila
> _______________________________________________
> Chicago mailing list
> Chicago at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>
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From shekay at pobox.com  Thu Dec 18 18:38:17 2008
From: shekay at pobox.com (sheila miguez)
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2008 11:38:17 -0600
Subject: [Chicago] Language comparisons
In-Reply-To: <361b27370812180931p48088866yda21064621c7c8b5@mail.gmail.com>
References: <a68ced640812180913t1fa74cafwd393280d9d898e41@mail.gmail.com>
	<361b27370812180917m636bae4dv9a031282b5869741@mail.gmail.com>
	<7d5312b00812180927s97ef216jce576874fbdc3524@mail.gmail.com>
	<a68ced640812180930p60edb7b4v7a3f97fe97d2a788@mail.gmail.com>
	<361b27370812180931p48088866yda21064621c7c8b5@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <a68ced640812180938p680781afm3a6fcfc2418c5a16@mail.gmail.com>

Has you in a pickle.

On Thu, Dec 18, 2008 at 11:31 AM, Atul Varma <varmaa at gmail.com> wrote:
> Lol!  Now I wish Python was called Tickle...
>
> On Thu, Dec 18, 2008 at 9:30 AM, sheila miguez <shekay at pobox.com> wrote:
>>
>> Yes, and you get weird looks from people when you tell them you were
>> at a "tickle" conference. :)
>>
>> On Thu, Dec 18, 2008 at 11:27 AM, Bryan Oakley <bryan.oakley at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>> > tickle tee kay
>> >
>> > On Thu, Dec 18, 2008 at 11:17 AM, Atul Varma <varmaa at gmail.com> wrote:
>> >> How does one pronounce tcl/tk?  I always say "tickle-tick" since it's
>> >> always
>> >> written that way, but I've never used it.
>> >>
>> >> On Thu, Dec 18, 2008 at 9:13 AM, sheila miguez <shekay at pobox.com>
>> >> wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>> I vote for the topic, and I may be able to have a good presenter on
>> >>> tcl/tk assuming Thursdays work for him. He would be awesome and I
>> >>> think tcl is better than python in some regards so I'd like for him to
>> >>> provide comparisons to show strengths and weaknesses.
>> >>>
>> >>> --
>> >>> sheila
>> >>> _______________________________________________
>> >>> Chicago mailing list
>> >>> Chicago at python.org
>> >>> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> _______________________________________________
>> >> Chicago mailing list
>> >> Chicago at python.org
>> >> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>> >>
>> >>
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > Chicago mailing list
>> > Chicago at python.org
>> > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>> >
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> sheila
>> _______________________________________________
>> Chicago mailing list
>> Chicago at python.org
>> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Chicago mailing list
> Chicago at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>
>



-- 
sheila

From shekay at pobox.com  Thu Dec 18 18:41:38 2008
From: shekay at pobox.com (sheila miguez)
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2008 11:41:38 -0600
Subject: [Chicago] Language comparisons
In-Reply-To: <a68ced640812180913t1fa74cafwd393280d9d898e41@mail.gmail.com>
References: <a68ced640812180913t1fa74cafwd393280d9d898e41@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <a68ced640812180941g5b8bdbfeuc9b2b9b4ac40bcc3@mail.gmail.com>

Do we have volunteers for other languages? We could approach Martin
Logan to see if he'd be willing to discuss Erlang (we don't have a
strong stackless showing though).

We should prepare a list of things to compare. and perhaps we will
need a pyconic sessionista to help keep the meeting from going too
long.

On Thu, Dec 18, 2008 at 11:13 AM, sheila miguez <shekay at pobox.com> wrote:
> I vote for the topic, and I may be able to have a good presenter on
> tcl/tk assuming Thursdays work for him. He would be awesome and I
> think tcl is better than python in some regards so I'd like for him to
> provide comparisons to show strengths and weaknesses.
>
> --
> sheila
>



-- 
sheila

From dgriff1 at gmail.com  Thu Dec 18 18:46:39 2008
From: dgriff1 at gmail.com (Daniel Griffin)
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2008 11:46:39 -0600
Subject: [Chicago] Language comparisons
In-Reply-To: <a68ced640812180941g5b8bdbfeuc9b2b9b4ac40bcc3@mail.gmail.com>
References: <a68ced640812180913t1fa74cafwd393280d9d898e41@mail.gmail.com>
	<a68ced640812180941g5b8bdbfeuc9b2b9b4ac40bcc3@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <3db160680812180946n59c049a7u772895f0a29f873f@mail.gmail.com>

It would be interesting to come up with some common set of tasks to use for
comparison. Maybe implementing a few fundamental algorithms like quick sort,
heap sort, creating a binary tree. I can write these up in C to show a
baseline.

Instead of saying Python has lists! Erlang is functional! tcl/tk does
something!

Dan

On Thu, Dec 18, 2008 at 11:41 AM, sheila miguez <shekay at pobox.com> wrote:

> Do we have volunteers for other languages? We could approach Martin
> Logan to see if he'd be willing to discuss Erlang (we don't have a
> strong stackless showing though).
>
> We should prepare a list of things to compare. and perhaps we will
> need a pyconic sessionista to help keep the meeting from going too
> long.
>
> On Thu, Dec 18, 2008 at 11:13 AM, sheila miguez <shekay at pobox.com> wrote:
> > I vote for the topic, and I may be able to have a good presenter on
> > tcl/tk assuming Thursdays work for him. He would be awesome and I
> > think tcl is better than python in some regards so I'd like for him to
> > provide comparisons to show strengths and weaknesses.
> >
> > --
> > sheila
> >
>
>
>
> --
> sheila
> _______________________________________________
> Chicago mailing list
> Chicago at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>
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From orblivion at gmail.com  Thu Dec 18 18:54:32 2008
From: orblivion at gmail.com (Dan Krol)
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2008 11:54:32 -0600
Subject: [Chicago] Language comparisons
In-Reply-To: <3db160680812180946n59c049a7u772895f0a29f873f@mail.gmail.com>
References: <a68ced640812180913t1fa74cafwd393280d9d898e41@mail.gmail.com>
	<a68ced640812180941g5b8bdbfeuc9b2b9b4ac40bcc3@mail.gmail.com>
	<3db160680812180946n59c049a7u772895f0a29f873f@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <94e10adf0812180954h6e1283e1wf1874a6ea6a8de9a@mail.gmail.com>

Along those lines, what I think would be useful in convincing people
to try a new language is to show an example of something that really
sucks to implement in python, and show how elegant it is in erlang or
this tickle language. And/Or then the other way around. Otherwise,
it's just another way of doing the same thing.

On Thu, Dec 18, 2008 at 11:46 AM, Daniel Griffin <dgriff1 at gmail.com> wrote:
> It would be interesting to come up with some common set of tasks to use for
> comparison. Maybe implementing a few fundamental algorithms like quick sort,
> heap sort, creating a binary tree. I can write these up in C to show a
> baseline.
>
> Instead of saying Python has lists! Erlang is functional! tcl/tk does
> something!
>
> Dan
>
> On Thu, Dec 18, 2008 at 11:41 AM, sheila miguez <shekay at pobox.com> wrote:
>>
>> Do we have volunteers for other languages? We could approach Martin
>> Logan to see if he'd be willing to discuss Erlang (we don't have a
>> strong stackless showing though).
>>
>> We should prepare a list of things to compare. and perhaps we will
>> need a pyconic sessionista to help keep the meeting from going too
>> long.
>>
>> On Thu, Dec 18, 2008 at 11:13 AM, sheila miguez <shekay at pobox.com> wrote:
>> > I vote for the topic, and I may be able to have a good presenter on
>> > tcl/tk assuming Thursdays work for him. He would be awesome and I
>> > think tcl is better than python in some regards so I'd like for him to
>> > provide comparisons to show strengths and weaknesses.
>> >
>> > --
>> > sheila
>> >
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> sheila
>> _______________________________________________
>> Chicago mailing list
>> Chicago at python.org
>> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Chicago mailing list
> Chicago at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>
>

From shekay at pobox.com  Thu Dec 18 18:59:22 2008
From: shekay at pobox.com (sheila miguez)
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2008 11:59:22 -0600
Subject: [Chicago] Language comparisons
In-Reply-To: <3db160680812180946n59c049a7u772895f0a29f873f@mail.gmail.com>
References: <a68ced640812180913t1fa74cafwd393280d9d898e41@mail.gmail.com>
	<a68ced640812180941g5b8bdbfeuc9b2b9b4ac40bcc3@mail.gmail.com>
	<3db160680812180946n59c049a7u772895f0a29f873f@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <a68ced640812180959r4b5fee98v511fdb679ddf75f1@mail.gmail.com>

I'd like to also know about, for example
* ease of packaging
* maintainability
* ease of deployment
* performance
* dependency handling
* ease of writing extensions
* availability of libraries

...comparison of GUI tool kits, etc.

Don't think we could handle that in an hour. People could pick the
areas where the language is strong and focus on those perhaps.


On Thu, Dec 18, 2008 at 11:46 AM, Daniel Griffin <dgriff1 at gmail.com> wrote:
> It would be interesting to come up with some common set of tasks to use for
> comparison. Maybe implementing a few fundamental algorithms like quick sort,
> heap sort, creating a binary tree. I can write these up in C to show a
> baseline.
>
> Instead of saying Python has lists! Erlang is functional! tcl/tk does
> something!
>
> Dan
>
> On Thu, Dec 18, 2008 at 11:41 AM, sheila miguez <shekay at pobox.com> wrote:
>>
>> Do we have volunteers for other languages? We could approach Martin
>> Logan to see if he'd be willing to discuss Erlang (we don't have a
>> strong stackless showing though).
>>
>> We should prepare a list of things to compare. and perhaps we will
>> need a pyconic sessionista to help keep the meeting from going too
>> long.
>>
>> On Thu, Dec 18, 2008 at 11:13 AM, sheila miguez <shekay at pobox.com> wrote:
>> > I vote for the topic, and I may be able to have a good presenter on
>> > tcl/tk assuming Thursdays work for him. He would be awesome and I
>> > think tcl is better than python in some regards so I'd like for him to
>> > provide comparisons to show strengths and weaknesses.
>> >
>> > --
>> > sheila
>> >
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> sheila
>> _______________________________________________
>> Chicago mailing list
>> Chicago at python.org
>> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Chicago mailing list
> Chicago at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>
>



-- 
sheila

From asl2 at pobox.com  Thu Dec 18 19:33:09 2008
From: asl2 at pobox.com (Aaron Lav)
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2008 13:33:09 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] Language comparisons
In-Reply-To: <a68ced640812180959r4b5fee98v511fdb679ddf75f1@mail.gmail.com>
References: <a68ced640812180913t1fa74cafwd393280d9d898e41@mail.gmail.com>
	<a68ced640812180941g5b8bdbfeuc9b2b9b4ac40bcc3@mail.gmail.com>
	<3db160680812180946n59c049a7u772895f0a29f873f@mail.gmail.com>
	<a68ced640812180959r4b5fee98v511fdb679ddf75f1@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20081218183308.GB26276@panix.com>

On Thu, Dec 18, 2008 at 11:59:22AM -0600, sheila miguez wrote:
>
> Don't think we could handle that in an hour. People could pick the
> areas where the language is strong and focus on those perhaps.

It might be more interesting to hear from committed language
partisans where their favorite language is weakest.  (It's
easy enough to find people talking up their favorite language,
or random uniformed bashing.)

  Aaron "two strings walk into a tcl program" (asl2 at pobox.com)

From carl at personnelware.com  Thu Dec 18 19:41:02 2008
From: carl at personnelware.com (Carl Karsten)
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2008 12:41:02 -0600
Subject: [Chicago] Language comparisons
In-Reply-To: <94e10adf0812180954h6e1283e1wf1874a6ea6a8de9a@mail.gmail.com>
References: <a68ced640812180913t1fa74cafwd393280d9d898e41@mail.gmail.com>	<a68ced640812180941g5b8bdbfeuc9b2b9b4ac40bcc3@mail.gmail.com>	<3db160680812180946n59c049a7u772895f0a29f873f@mail.gmail.com>
	<94e10adf0812180954h6e1283e1wf1874a6ea6a8de9a@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <494A993E.7010903@personnelware.com>

Lately I have gone on a kick writing a talk aimed at teaching people how to read 
Python.  has nothing to do with preforming any tasks, just the nitty gritty 
syntax that you see when you look at python code.   It is a spin off of "The 
Python that makes Python Python" which is similar material, but took too long. 
The whole thing is done at the >>> prompt, and it builds on itself: introduce a 
list, then slicing, then iterating.

Skimming over the basic syntax I think gives people a good foundation for 
learning the language, and is the most efficient use of a single session.

So it *might* be a good target for getting a grip on other languages.  No clue 
if it is what we want - someone else can figure that out.

Carl K







From shekay at pobox.com  Thu Dec 18 20:05:39 2008
From: shekay at pobox.com (sheila miguez)
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2008 13:05:39 -0600
Subject: [Chicago] Language comparisons
In-Reply-To: <494A993E.7010903@personnelware.com>
References: <a68ced640812180913t1fa74cafwd393280d9d898e41@mail.gmail.com>
	<a68ced640812180941g5b8bdbfeuc9b2b9b4ac40bcc3@mail.gmail.com>
	<3db160680812180946n59c049a7u772895f0a29f873f@mail.gmail.com>
	<94e10adf0812180954h6e1283e1wf1874a6ea6a8de9a@mail.gmail.com>
	<494A993E.7010903@personnelware.com>
Message-ID: <a68ced640812181105i2e5cd1d6we56ba0addfc198d9@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Dec 18, 2008 at 12:41 PM, Carl Karsten <carl at personnelware.com> wrote:
> Lately I have gone on a kick writing a talk aimed at teaching people how to
> read Python.  has nothing to do with preforming any tasks, just the nitty


Readability is important. I think it can be included in the
maintainability bucket.

-- 
sheila

From shekay at pobox.com  Thu Dec 18 20:06:45 2008
From: shekay at pobox.com (sheila miguez)
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2008 13:06:45 -0600
Subject: [Chicago] Language comparisons
In-Reply-To: <20081218183308.GB26276@panix.com>
References: <a68ced640812180913t1fa74cafwd393280d9d898e41@mail.gmail.com>
	<a68ced640812180941g5b8bdbfeuc9b2b9b4ac40bcc3@mail.gmail.com>
	<3db160680812180946n59c049a7u772895f0a29f873f@mail.gmail.com>
	<a68ced640812180959r4b5fee98v511fdb679ddf75f1@mail.gmail.com>
	<20081218183308.GB26276@panix.com>
Message-ID: <a68ced640812181106v79dfe4fcy60df5204d9099371@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Dec 18, 2008 at 12:33 PM, Aaron Lav <asl2 at pobox.com> wrote:
> On Thu, Dec 18, 2008 at 11:59:22AM -0600, sheila miguez wrote:
>>
>> Don't think we could handle that in an hour. People could pick the
>> areas where the language is strong and focus on those perhaps.
>
> It might be more interesting to hear from committed language
> partisans where their favorite language is weakest.  (It's
> easy enough to find people talking up their favorite language,
> or random uniformed bashing.)
>
>  Aaron "two strings walk into a tcl program" (asl2 at pobox.com)

the whole string thing in tcl improved after 8.3.

oh oh oh, we could compare unicode ease on brain.



-- 
sheila

From shekay at pobox.com  Thu Dec 18 20:08:12 2008
From: shekay at pobox.com (sheila miguez)
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2008 13:08:12 -0600
Subject: [Chicago] Language comparisons
In-Reply-To: <20081218183308.GB26276@panix.com>
References: <a68ced640812180913t1fa74cafwd393280d9d898e41@mail.gmail.com>
	<a68ced640812180941g5b8bdbfeuc9b2b9b4ac40bcc3@mail.gmail.com>
	<3db160680812180946n59c049a7u772895f0a29f873f@mail.gmail.com>
	<a68ced640812180959r4b5fee98v511fdb679ddf75f1@mail.gmail.com>
	<20081218183308.GB26276@panix.com>
Message-ID: <a68ced640812181108m100abea8n22ed5205beca82f4@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Dec 18, 2008 at 12:33 PM, Aaron Lav <asl2 at pobox.com> wrote:
> On Thu, Dec 18, 2008 at 11:59:22AM -0600, sheila miguez wrote:
>>
>> Don't think we could handle that in an hour. People could pick the
>> areas where the language is strong and focus on those perhaps.
>
> It might be more interesting to hear from committed language
> partisans where their favorite language is weakest.  (It's
> easy enough to find people talking up their favorite language,
> or random uniformed bashing.)
>
>  Aaron "two strings walk into a tcl program" (asl2 at pobox.com)

Anyway, who suggested this? I can't remember. step forward and make
dictatorial decisions.

I think we could combine a meeting of chipy with polyglot?


-- 
sheila

From ianb at colorstudy.com  Thu Dec 18 20:11:16 2008
From: ianb at colorstudy.com (Ian Bicking)
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2008 13:11:16 -0600
Subject: [Chicago] Language comparisons
In-Reply-To: <a68ced640812180941g5b8bdbfeuc9b2b9b4ac40bcc3@mail.gmail.com>
References: <a68ced640812180913t1fa74cafwd393280d9d898e41@mail.gmail.com>
	<a68ced640812180941g5b8bdbfeuc9b2b9b4ac40bcc3@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <494AA054.5040609@colorstudy.com>

I can do Logo.

I'd do Smalltalk if no one else does it, because I think it should be 
part of any comparison.  But if someone else wants to do it, that's cool 
too.

sheila miguez wrote:
> Do we have volunteers for other languages? We could approach Martin
> Logan to see if he'd be willing to discuss Erlang (we don't have a
> strong stackless showing though).
> 
> We should prepare a list of things to compare. and perhaps we will
> need a pyconic sessionista to help keep the meeting from going too
> long.
> 
> On Thu, Dec 18, 2008 at 11:13 AM, sheila miguez <shekay at pobox.com> wrote:
>> I vote for the topic, and I may be able to have a good presenter on
>> tcl/tk assuming Thursdays work for him. He would be awesome and I
>> think tcl is better than python in some regards so I'd like for him to
>> provide comparisons to show strengths and weaknesses.
>>
>> --
>> sheila
>>
> 
> 
> 


-- 
Ian Bicking : ianb at colorstudy.com : http://blog.ianbicking.org

From david.durham.jr at gmail.com  Thu Dec 18 22:07:32 2008
From: david.durham.jr at gmail.com (David Durham, Jr.)
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2008 15:07:32 -0600
Subject: [Chicago] Language comparisons
In-Reply-To: <a68ced640812180913t1fa74cafwd393280d9d898e41@mail.gmail.com>
References: <a68ced640812180913t1fa74cafwd393280d9d898e41@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <fdb5fda0812181307w4e66b6bdy6b78d337982cb9eb@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Dec 18, 2008 at 11:13 AM, sheila miguez <shekay at pobox.com> wrote:
> I vote for the topic, and I may be able to have a good presenter on
> tcl/tk assuming Thursdays work for him. He would be awesome and I
> think tcl is better than python in some regards so I'd like for him to
> provide comparisons to show strengths and weaknesses.


Who's gonna cover whitespace?

http://compsoc.dur.ac.uk/whitespace/

-Dave

From bray at sent.com  Thu Dec 18 23:42:52 2008
From: bray at sent.com (Brian Ray)
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2008 16:42:52 -0600
Subject: [Chicago] Language comparisons
In-Reply-To: <fdb5fda0812181307w4e66b6bdy6b78d337982cb9eb@mail.gmail.com>
References: <a68ced640812180913t1fa74cafwd393280d9d898e41@mail.gmail.com>
	<fdb5fda0812181307w4e66b6bdy6b78d337982cb9eb@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <0492D263-FFCA-484F-B9F3-3D1D704E0A0D@sent.com>


On Dec 18, 2008, at 3:07 PM, David Durham, Jr. wrote:

> On Thu, Dec 18, 2008 at 11:13 AM, sheila miguez <shekay at pobox.com>  
> wrote:
>> I vote for the topic, and I may be able to have a good presenter on
>> tcl/tk assuming Thursdays work for him. He would be awesome and I
>> think tcl is better than python in some regards so I'd like for him  
>> to
>> provide comparisons to show strengths and weaknesses.
>
>
> Who's gonna cover whitespace?
>
> http://compsoc.dur.ac.uk/whitespace/



How about :





From jbsnyder at fanplastic.org  Fri Dec 19 03:39:01 2008
From: jbsnyder at fanplastic.org (James Snyder)
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2008 20:39:01 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [Chicago] Language comparisons
In-Reply-To: <141947775.1309421229654271387.JavaMail.root@mail-1.01.com>
Message-ID: <1043232235.1309511229654341300.JavaMail.root@mail-1.01.com>

Or Brainfuck?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brainfuck

Here's hello world:
++++++++++[>+++++++>++++++++++>+++>+<<<<-]>++.>+.+++++++..+++.>++.<<+++++++++++++++.>.+++.------.--------.>+.>.

----- Original Message -----
From: "David Durham, Jr." <david.durham.jr at gmail.com>
To: "The Chicago Python Users Group" <chicago at python.org>
Sent: Thursday, December 18, 2008 3:07:32 PM GMT -06:00 US/Canada Central
Subject: Re: [Chicago] Language comparisons

On Thu, Dec 18, 2008 at 11:13 AM, sheila miguez <shekay at pobox.com> wrote:
> I vote for the topic, and I may be able to have a good presenter on
> tcl/tk assuming Thursdays work for him. He would be awesome and I
> think tcl is better than python in some regards so I'd like for him to
> provide comparisons to show strengths and weaknesses.


Who's gonna cover whitespace?

http://compsoc.dur.ac.uk/whitespace/

-Dave
_______________________________________________
Chicago mailing list
Chicago at python.org
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago

From swgithen at mtu.edu  Sun Dec 21 19:21:15 2008
From: swgithen at mtu.edu (Steven Githens)
Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2008 13:21:15 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] What to do about File Like Object methods I don't need...
Message-ID: <494E891B.1080906@mtu.edu>

Hi all,

I'm curious what the correct Pythonic way to deal with the following 
issue is (since I still spend more time in Java than Python unfortunately)

I am implementing 2 versions of the File-Like Object signatures ( 
http://www.python.org/doc/2.5.2/lib/bltin-file-objects.html ).  One will 
be mapping to our projects archaic content repository interface, and 
another one will be adapting to a generic JSR-170 repository 
(consequently, these are both being implemented using Jython 2.5 ).

My question is, when I see methods in the docs like these two:

fileno(      )
    Return the integer ``file descriptor'' that is used by the 
underlying implementation to request I/O operations from the operating 
system. This can be useful for other, lower level interfaces that use 
file descriptors, such as the fcntl module or os.read() and friends. 
Note: File-like objects which do not have a real file descriptor should 
not provide this method!

isatty(     )
    Return True if the file is connected to a tty(-like) device, else 
False. Note: If a file-like object is not associated with a real file, 
this method should not be implemented.



Should I...
 
- really just flat out not implement them
- or should I stub them in and throw a standard Python not implemented 
sort of exception
- or stub them in and just 'pass'
- or something else?

Thanks for any suggestions,
Steve

From g at rrett.us.com  Sun Dec 21 19:39:47 2008
From: g at rrett.us.com (Garrett Smith)
Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2008 12:39:47 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [Chicago] What to do about File Like Object methods I don't
 need...
In-Reply-To: <494E891B.1080906@mtu.edu>
Message-ID: <1758921071.6780441229884787226.JavaMail.root@mail-3.01.com>

I generally don't implement and see what happens. The other options are boilerplate. If something you're using requires those methods, you'll find out unambiguously anyway.

Duck typing is going to feel imprecise at times, especially if you spend a lot of time in Java land. Instead of tightly enforced interfaces (very false sense if security), you need to rely on a solid test approach.

Garrett

----- "Steven Githens" <swgithen at mtu.edu> wrote:

> Hi all,
> 
> I'm curious what the correct Pythonic way to deal with the following 
> issue is (since I still spend more time in Java than Python
> unfortunately)
> 
> I am implementing 2 versions of the File-Like Object signatures ( 
> http://www.python.org/doc/2.5.2/lib/bltin-file-objects.html ).  One
> will 
> be mapping to our projects archaic content repository interface, and 
> another one will be adapting to a generic JSR-170 repository 
> (consequently, these are both being implemented using Jython 2.5 ).
> 
> My question is, when I see methods in the docs like these two:
> 
> fileno(      )
>     Return the integer ``file descriptor'' that is used by the 
> underlying implementation to request I/O operations from the operating
> 
> system. This can be useful for other, lower level interfaces that use
> 
> file descriptors, such as the fcntl module or os.read() and friends. 
> Note: File-like objects which do not have a real file descriptor
> should 
> not provide this method!
> 
> isatty(     )
>     Return True if the file is connected to a tty(-like) device, else
> 
> False. Note: If a file-like object is not associated with a real file,
> 
> this method should not be implemented.
> 
> 
> 
> Should I...
>  
> - really just flat out not implement them
> - or should I stub them in and throw a standard Python not implemented
> 
> sort of exception
> - or stub them in and just 'pass'
> - or something else?
> 
> Thanks for any suggestions,
> Steve
> _______________________________________________
> Chicago mailing list
> Chicago at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago

From carl at personnelware.com  Sun Dec 21 19:50:35 2008
From: carl at personnelware.com (Carl Karsten)
Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2008 12:50:35 -0600
Subject: [Chicago] What to do about File Like Object methods I don't
	need...
In-Reply-To: <494E891B.1080906@mtu.edu>
References: <494E891B.1080906@mtu.edu>
Message-ID: <494E8FFB.4060105@personnelware.com>

Steven Githens wrote:
> Hi all,
> 
> I'm curious what the correct Pythonic way to deal with the following 
> issue is (since I still spend more time in Java than Python unfortunately)
> 
> I am implementing 2 versions of the File-Like Object signatures ( 
> http://www.python.org/doc/2.5.2/lib/bltin-file-objects.html ).  One will 
> be mapping to our projects archaic content repository interface, and 
> another one will be adapting to a generic JSR-170 repository 
> (consequently, these are both being implemented using Jython 2.5 ).
> 
> My question is, when I see methods in the docs like these two:
> 
> fileno(      )
>    Return the integer ``file descriptor'' that is used by the underlying 
> implementation to request I/O operations from the operating system. This 
> can be useful for other, lower level interfaces that use file 
> descriptors, such as the fcntl module or os.read() and friends. Note: 
> File-like objects which do not have a real file descriptor should not 
> provide this method!
> 
> isatty(     )
>    Return True if the file is connected to a tty(-like) device, else 
> False. Note: If a file-like object is not associated with a real file, 
> this method should not be implemented.
> 
> 
> 
> Should I...
> 
> - really just flat out not implement them

my vote.  The docs kinda hint at that, in a round about way.  :)

> - or should I stub them in and throw a standard Python not implemented 
> sort of exception

The only time that code will get run is when something calls it, and it should 
never call it, right?  so don't write the code, and if the "never should happen" 
case happens, let the normal error happen.

> - or stub them in and just 'pass'
I will hunt you down and make you fix my apps.

If I write bad code, I want it to blow up close to where the badness is.  not 
1000's of bytes later which causes me to burn time looking somewhere else for 
the error, expanding the scope of my search until I finely hit the "call/pass" 
that should have blown up.

Carl K


From swgithen at mtu.edu  Sun Dec 21 19:56:50 2008
From: swgithen at mtu.edu (Steven Githens)
Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2008 13:56:50 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] What to do about File Like Object methods I
	don't	need...
In-Reply-To: <494E8FFB.4060105@personnelware.com>
References: <494E891B.1080906@mtu.edu> <494E8FFB.4060105@personnelware.com>
Message-ID: <494E9172.7020307@mtu.edu>

Carl Karsten wrote: 
>> - or stub them in and just 'pass'
> I will hunt you down and make you fix my apps.
>
> If I write bad code, I want it to blow up close to where the badness 
> is.  not 1000's of bytes later which causes me to burn time looking 
> somewhere else for the error, expanding the scope of my search until I 
> finely hit the "call/pass" that should have blown up.
>
Here's another one:

flush(      )
    Flush the internal buffer, like stdio's fflush(). This may be a 
no-op on some file-like objects.


I'm assuming that would translate to a flush(self): pass    rather than 
just no implementation right?

-s


From ianb at colorstudy.com  Sun Dec 21 19:56:53 2008
From: ianb at colorstudy.com (Ian Bicking)
Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2008 12:56:53 -0600
Subject: [Chicago] What to do about File Like Object methods I don't
	need...
In-Reply-To: <494E891B.1080906@mtu.edu>
References: <494E891B.1080906@mtu.edu>
Message-ID: <494E9175.7060204@colorstudy.com>

Steven Githens wrote:
> My question is, when I see methods in the docs like these two:
> 
> fileno(      )
>    Return the integer ``file descriptor'' that is used by the underlying 
> implementation to request I/O operations from the operating system. This 
> can be useful for other, lower level interfaces that use file 
> descriptors, such as the fcntl module or os.read() and friends. Note: 
> File-like objects which do not have a real file descriptor should not 
> provide this method!
> 
> isatty(     )
>    Return True if the file is connected to a tty(-like) device, else 
> False. Note: If a file-like object is not associated with a real file, 
> this method should not be implemented.
> 
> 
> 
> Should I...
> 
> - really just flat out not implement them
> - or should I stub them in and throw a standard Python not implemented 
> sort of exception
> - or stub them in and just 'pass'
> - or something else?

Just don't implement them.  Almost all code when it uses these methods 
either would be flat-out unusable with your interface (for instance, 
it's doing fancy locking and other file manipulations using the fileno), 
or it expects that these methods might not defined.  Most code just 
doesn't use these methods.

-- 
Ian Bicking : ianb at colorstudy.com : http://blog.ianbicking.org

From swgithen at mtu.edu  Sun Dec 21 20:02:32 2008
From: swgithen at mtu.edu (Steven Githens)
Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2008 14:02:32 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] What to do about File Like Object methods I
	don't	need...
In-Reply-To: <494E9175.7060204@colorstudy.com>
References: <494E891B.1080906@mtu.edu> <494E9175.7060204@colorstudy.com>
Message-ID: <494E92C8.5070701@mtu.edu>

cool, thx everyone.   I'll just not implement them, and put some notes 
in the docstring saying which methods are not available.

-s

Ian Bicking wrote:
> Steven Githens wrote:
>> My question is, when I see methods in the docs like these two:
>>
>> fileno(      )
>>    Return the integer ``file descriptor'' that is used by the 
>> underlying implementation to request I/O operations from the 
>> operating system. This can be useful for other, lower level 
>> interfaces that use file descriptors, such as the fcntl module or 
>> os.read() and friends. Note: File-like objects which do not have a 
>> real file descriptor should not provide this method!
>>
>> isatty(     )
>>    Return True if the file is connected to a tty(-like) device, else 
>> False. Note: If a file-like object is not associated with a real 
>> file, this method should not be implemented.
>>
>>
>>
>> Should I...
>>
>> - really just flat out not implement them
>> - or should I stub them in and throw a standard Python not 
>> implemented sort of exception
>> - or stub them in and just 'pass'
>> - or something else?
>
> Just don't implement them.  Almost all code when it uses these methods 
> either would be flat-out unusable with your interface (for instance, 
> it's doing fancy locking and other file manipulations using the 
> fileno), or it expects that these methods might not defined.  Most 
> code just doesn't use these methods.
>


From carl at personnelware.com  Sun Dec 21 20:23:47 2008
From: carl at personnelware.com (Carl Karsten)
Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2008 13:23:47 -0600
Subject: [Chicago] What to do about File Like Object methods
	I	don't	need...
In-Reply-To: <494E9172.7020307@mtu.edu>
References: <494E891B.1080906@mtu.edu> <494E8FFB.4060105@personnelware.com>
	<494E9172.7020307@mtu.edu>
Message-ID: <494E97C3.3070102@personnelware.com>

Steven Githens wrote:
> Carl Karsten wrote:
>>> - or stub them in and just 'pass'
>> I will hunt you down and make you fix my apps.
>>
>> If I write bad code, I want it to blow up close to where the badness 
>> is.  not 1000's of bytes later which causes me to burn time looking 
>> somewhere else for the error, expanding the scope of my search until I 
>> finely hit the "call/pass" that should have blown up.
>>
> Here's another one:
> 
> flush(      )
>    Flush the internal buffer, like stdio's fflush(). This may be a no-op 
> on some file-like objects.
> 
> 
> I'm assuming that would translate to a flush(self): pass    rather than 
> just no implementation right?

That sounds reasonable, assuming you aren't implementing some buffer that could 
be written to it's target.

Carl K

From deadwisdom at gmail.com  Sun Dec 21 21:48:23 2008
From: deadwisdom at gmail.com (Brantley Harris)
Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2008 14:48:23 -0600
Subject: [Chicago] What to do about File Like Object methods I don't
	need...
In-Reply-To: <494E9175.7060204@colorstudy.com>
References: <494E891B.1080906@mtu.edu> <494E9175.7060204@colorstudy.com>
Message-ID: <694c06d60812211248k13d72cf9pf5f693d9e6c7fc6@mail.gmail.com>

It's what NotImplimentedError is for!

On Sun, Dec 21, 2008 at 12:56 PM, Ian Bicking <ianb at colorstudy.com> wrote:
> Steven Githens wrote:
>>
>> My question is, when I see methods in the docs like these two:
>>
>> fileno(      )
>>   Return the integer ``file descriptor'' that is used by the underlying
>> implementation to request I/O operations from the operating system. This can
>> be useful for other, lower level interfaces that use file descriptors, such
>> as the fcntl module or os.read() and friends. Note: File-like objects which
>> do not have a real file descriptor should not provide this method!
>>
>> isatty(     )
>>   Return True if the file is connected to a tty(-like) device, else False.
>> Note: If a file-like object is not associated with a real file, this method
>> should not be implemented.
>>
>>
>>
>> Should I...
>>
>> - really just flat out not implement them
>> - or should I stub them in and throw a standard Python not implemented
>> sort of exception
>> - or stub them in and just 'pass'
>> - or something else?
>
> Just don't implement them.  Almost all code when it uses these methods
> either would be flat-out unusable with your interface (for instance, it's
> doing fancy locking and other file manipulations using the fileno), or it
> expects that these methods might not defined.  Most code just doesn't use
> these methods.
>
> --
> Ian Bicking : ianb at colorstudy.com : http://blog.ianbicking.org
> _______________________________________________
> Chicago mailing list
> Chicago at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>

From ianb at colorstudy.com  Sun Dec 21 22:05:00 2008
From: ianb at colorstudy.com (Ian Bicking)
Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2008 15:05:00 -0600
Subject: [Chicago] What to do about File Like Object methods I
	don't	need...
In-Reply-To: <694c06d60812211248k13d72cf9pf5f693d9e6c7fc6@mail.gmail.com>
References: <494E891B.1080906@mtu.edu> <494E9175.7060204@colorstudy.com>
	<694c06d60812211248k13d72cf9pf5f693d9e6c7fc6@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <494EAF7C.9030005@colorstudy.com>

Brantley Harris wrote:
> It's what NotImplimentedError is for!

Nah, lots of code does things like:

if hasattr(fp, 'isatty'):
     isatty = fp.isatty()
else:
     isatty = False

But not much code does:

try:
     isatty = fp.isatty()
except (NotImplementedError, AttributeError):
     isatty = False


Maybe the second form makes sense, but I haven't seen it much.  And 
really a longer form would be better (at which point it's clearly 
becoming annoying, so people don't do it):

try:
     meth = fp.isatty
except AttributeError:
     isatty = False
else:
     try:
         isatty = meth()
     except NotImplementedError:
         isatty = False


-- 
Ian Bicking : ianb at colorstudy.com : http://blog.ianbicking.org

From deadwisdom at gmail.com  Mon Dec 22 20:20:04 2008
From: deadwisdom at gmail.com (Brantley Harris)
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2008 13:20:04 -0600
Subject: [Chicago] What to do about File Like Object methods I don't
	need...
In-Reply-To: <494EAF7C.9030005@colorstudy.com>
References: <494E891B.1080906@mtu.edu> <494E9175.7060204@colorstudy.com>
	<694c06d60812211248k13d72cf9pf5f693d9e6c7fc6@mail.gmail.com>
	<494EAF7C.9030005@colorstudy.com>
Message-ID: <694c06d60812221120s5580a2e4u9048c6c9eb35f5c8@mail.gmail.com>

Ah good point.

But, I guess I think of it more as: use this method, and you will get
an unhandled exception, which means you're using it wrong, and more
over it means that the interface does not support the method you're
trying to invoke, rather than the ambiguous state bearing questions
like "Did I use the right method?" or even "Am I sure I'm thinking of
the right interface?"

True, I wouldn't write out the long try/except, but I also wouldn't
write hasattr.  I'd just call it: fb.isatty(), because when I write
the code, having a specific interface in mind, I would not check every
method before I call it.

But, of course, we are arguing inches here.

On Sun, Dec 21, 2008 at 3:05 PM, Ian Bicking <ianb at colorstudy.com> wrote:
> Brantley Harris wrote:
>>
>> It's what NotImplimentedError is for!
>
> Nah, lots of code does things like:
>
> if hasattr(fp, 'isatty'):
>    isatty = fp.isatty()
> else:
>    isatty = False
>
> But not much code does:
>
> try:
>    isatty = fp.isatty()
> except (NotImplementedError, AttributeError):
>    isatty = False
>
>
> Maybe the second form makes sense, but I haven't seen it much.  And really a
> longer form would be better (at which point it's clearly becoming annoying,
> so people don't do it):
>
> try:
>    meth = fp.isatty
> except AttributeError:
>    isatty = False
> else:
>    try:
>        isatty = meth()
>    except NotImplementedError:
>        isatty = False
>
>
> --
> Ian Bicking : ianb at colorstudy.com : http://blog.ianbicking.org
> _______________________________________________
> Chicago mailing list
> Chicago at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>

From dgriff1 at gmail.com  Tue Dec 23 01:58:42 2008
From: dgriff1 at gmail.com (Daniel Griffin)
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2008 18:58:42 -0600
Subject: [Chicago] Import question
Message-ID: <3db160680812221658q5730fd9bwef6d088dc2535355@mail.gmail.com>

I am having a problem with imports. I have 2 files, 1 which sets up
SQLAlchemy and maps the object and the other which imports the first so that
it can get a database connection.

Example
file obj

import db
class obj:


file db
from obj import obj
mapper(obj....)
Session() = scoped_session()

python
from obj import obj
can't find obj

I hope this makes sense, its twisting my brain around. Does anyone know what
I am doing wrong?

Thanks
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From maney at two14.net  Tue Dec 23 03:48:55 2008
From: maney at two14.net (Martin Maney)
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2008 20:48:55 -0600
Subject: [Chicago] Import question
In-Reply-To: <3db160680812221658q5730fd9bwef6d088dc2535355@mail.gmail.com>
References: <3db160680812221658q5730fd9bwef6d088dc2535355@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20081223024855.GA14816@furrr.two14.net>

On Mon, Dec 22, 2008 at 06:58:42PM -0600, Daniel Griffin wrote:
> I am having a problem with imports. I have 2 files, 1 which sets up
> SQLAlchemy and maps the object and the other which imports the first so that
> it can get a database connection.
> 
> Example
> file obj
> 
> import db
> class obj:
> 
> 
> file db
> from obj import obj
> mapper(obj....)
> Session() = scoped_session()
> 
> python
> from obj import obj
> can't find obj
> 
> I hope this makes sense, its twisting my brain around. Does anyone know what
> I am doing wrong?

>>> from obj import obj

This requires module obj to be imported, of course.  During that
import, before class obj is defined, module db has to be imported. 
during *that* import, an attempt is made to import obj and access the
class obj... which doesn't yet exist.  Exception time.

It's not that you can't import recursively, the problem is that you
have to consider what you can actually access at the time it recurses. 
If class obj can be defined without referring to db, the easy fix would
be to move that import below the class obj definition.  If you really
cannot define class obj without having access to stuff in db which in
turn requires the ability to instantiate class obj, there is no hope
for this design.

Think of it this way: how would you write it if there were only the
obj.py file, and it had to contain everythig from both files as they
are now.  How could you order things so that it would work that way?

-- 
We reject kings, presidents, and voting.
We believe in rough consensus
and running code. -- David Clarke


From dgriff1 at gmail.com  Tue Dec 23 04:57:08 2008
From: dgriff1 at gmail.com (Daniel Griffin)
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2008 21:57:08 -0600
Subject: [Chicago] Import question
In-Reply-To: <20081223024855.GA14816@furrr.two14.net>
References: <3db160680812221658q5730fd9bwef6d088dc2535355@mail.gmail.com>
	<20081223024855.GA14816@furrr.two14.net>
Message-ID: <3db160680812221957j4a8027baj8900f5169de72e02@mail.gmail.com>

That makes a lot of sense. I ended up splitting the db file in 2 so that the
parts that need the imports are separate from the parts that the imports
need.

Thanks,
Dan

On Mon, Dec 22, 2008 at 8:48 PM, Martin Maney <maney at two14.net> wrote:

> On Mon, Dec 22, 2008 at 06:58:42PM -0600, Daniel Griffin wrote:
> > I am having a problem with imports. I have 2 files, 1 which sets up
> > SQLAlchemy and maps the object and the other which imports the first so
> that
> > it can get a database connection.
> >
> > Example
> > file obj
> >
> > import db
> > class obj:
> >
> >
> > file db
> > from obj import obj
> > mapper(obj....)
> > Session() = scoped_session()
> >
> > python
> > from obj import obj
> > can't find obj
> >
> > I hope this makes sense, its twisting my brain around. Does anyone know
> what
> > I am doing wrong?
>
> >>> from obj import obj
>
> This requires module obj to be imported, of course.  During that
> import, before class obj is defined, module db has to be imported.
> during *that* import, an attempt is made to import obj and access the
> class obj... which doesn't yet exist.  Exception time.
>
> It's not that you can't import recursively, the problem is that you
> have to consider what you can actually access at the time it recurses.
> If class obj can be defined without referring to db, the easy fix would
> be to move that import below the class obj definition.  If you really
> cannot define class obj without having access to stuff in db which in
> turn requires the ability to instantiate class obj, there is no hope
> for this design.
>
> Think of it this way: how would you write it if there were only the
> obj.py file, and it had to contain everythig from both files as they
> are now.  How could you order things so that it would work that way?
>
> --
> We reject kings, presidents, and voting.
> We believe in rough consensus
> and running code. -- David Clarke
>
> _______________________________________________
> Chicago mailing list
> Chicago at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>
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From cosmin at offbytwo.com  Tue Dec 23 02:31:49 2008
From: cosmin at offbytwo.com (Cosmin Stejerean)
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2008 19:31:49 -0600
Subject: [Chicago] Import question
In-Reply-To: <3db160680812221658q5730fd9bwef6d088dc2535355@mail.gmail.com>
References: <3db160680812221658q5730fd9bwef6d088dc2535355@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <7359BAE3-CB9A-410D-84C8-5680BB4100C3@offbytwo.com>

Looks like a circular dependency. Obj depends on db, but db depends on  
obj. You need to find a way to break this circular dependency so that  
both modules can be initialized.

Cosmin Stejerean(m)

On Dec 22, 2008, at 6:58 PM, "Daniel Griffin" <dgriff1 at gmail.com> wrote:

> I am having a problem with imports. I have 2 files, 1 which sets up  
> SQLAlchemy and maps the object and the other which imports the first  
> so that it can get a database connection.
>
> Example
> file obj
>
> import db
> class obj:
>
>
> file db
> from obj import obj
> mapper(obj....)
> Session() = scoped_session()
>
> python
> from obj import obj
> can't find obj
>
> I hope this makes sense, its twisting my brain around. Does anyone  
> know what I am doing wrong?
>
> Thanks
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Chicago mailing list
> Chicago at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago

From fasteliteprogrammer at yahoo.com  Tue Dec 23 22:09:57 2008
From: fasteliteprogrammer at yahoo.com (Craig)
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2008 13:09:57 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Chicago] packet Question
Message-ID: <658200.11162.qm@web36507.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

How would i make my own raw socket and my own packets in python?And my other question can i still use scapy after i update to python 2.5.4 on fedora 9?






      

From dgriff1 at gmail.com  Tue Dec 23 22:20:13 2008
From: dgriff1 at gmail.com (Daniel Griffin)
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2008 15:20:13 -0600
Subject: [Chicago] packet Question
In-Reply-To: <658200.11162.qm@web36507.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <658200.11162.qm@web36507.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <3db160680812231320r19145404ja96cc90aef6b5b87@mail.gmail.com>

Look here: http://www.amk.ca/python/howto/sockets/
I have no idea about scapy, but probably?

On Tue, Dec 23, 2008 at 3:09 PM, Craig <fasteliteprogrammer at yahoo.com>wrote:

> How would i make my own raw socket and my own packets in python?And my
> other question can i still use scapy after i update to python 2.5.4 on
> fedora 9?
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Chicago mailing list
> Chicago at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>
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From deadwisdom at gmail.com  Wed Dec 24 00:05:41 2008
From: deadwisdom at gmail.com (Brantley Harris)
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2008 17:05:41 -0600
Subject: [Chicago] Migratory, a new Django database migration system.
Message-ID: <694c06d60812231505l1a75e0d2qb2a0c33fefe6596e@mail.gmail.com>

I got tired of waiting for this system, so I made it myself.  So far
it really only works with SQLite, and I haven't gotten many edge cases
tested yet.  Anyone have time to give me some feedback?  Thanks.


(from http://www.bitbucket.org/DeadWisdom/migratory/wiki/Home)

So the idea is a django orm database migration system that:
  * Is simple.
  * Doesn't make you use sql.  This is an orm, we shouldn't have to use sql.
  * Can be automatic. Predicts the migration script for you so you
don't have to think about what has changed.
  * Works well in a version control system, or even distributed ones.
Because damnit.
  * During the migration process, **allows you to use the state of
your previous models as if they were still there**.  This is key, and
is not done anywhere else, as far as I know.

From fasteliteprogrammer at yahoo.com  Thu Dec 25 09:54:14 2008
From: fasteliteprogrammer at yahoo.com (Craig)
Date: Thu, 25 Dec 2008 00:54:14 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Chicago] sockets Question
Message-ID: <299689.32567.qm@web36503.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Is there a good link on python socket programming?


      

From dgriff1 at gmail.com  Thu Dec 25 16:37:23 2008
From: dgriff1 at gmail.com (Daniel Griffin)
Date: Thu, 25 Dec 2008 09:37:23 -0600
Subject: [Chicago] sockets Question
In-Reply-To: <299689.32567.qm@web36503.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <299689.32567.qm@web36503.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <3db160680812250737n7df14956s1935481d636cf037@mail.gmail.com>

http://www.amk.ca/python/howto/sockets/

On Thu, Dec 25, 2008 at 2:54 AM, Craig <fasteliteprogrammer at yahoo.com>wrote:

> Is there a good link on python socket programming?
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Chicago mailing list
> Chicago at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>
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From pfein at pobox.com  Fri Dec 26 17:24:01 2008
From: pfein at pobox.com (Pete)
Date: Fri, 26 Dec 2008 11:24:01 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] sockets Question
In-Reply-To: <3db160680812250737n7df14956s1935481d636cf037@mail.gmail.com>
References: <299689.32567.qm@web36503.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<3db160680812250737n7df14956s1935481d636cf037@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CCE9BA13-57BB-4A97-A188-8CAF2DBF1AC4@pobox.com>

C, but the best I've seen: http://beej.us/guide/bgnet/output/html/multipage/index.html

When I look at C, I can see the Python within.

On Dec 25, 2008, at 10:37 AM, Daniel Griffin wrote:

> http://www.amk.ca/python/howto/sockets/
>
> On Thu, Dec 25, 2008 at 2:54 AM, Craig  
> <fasteliteprogrammer at yahoo.com> wrote:
> Is there a good link on python socket programming?
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Chicago mailing list
> Chicago at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>
> _______________________________________________
> Chicago mailing list
> Chicago at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago

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From mdipierro at cs.depaul.edu  Fri Dec 26 17:31:44 2008
From: mdipierro at cs.depaul.edu (Massimo Di Pierro)
Date: Fri, 26 Dec 2008 10:31:44 -0600
Subject: [Chicago] sockets Question
In-Reply-To: <CCE9BA13-57BB-4A97-A188-8CAF2DBF1AC4@pobox.com>
References: <299689.32567.qm@web36503.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<3db160680812250737n7df14956s1935481d636cf037@mail.gmail.com>
	<CCE9BA13-57BB-4A97-A188-8CAF2DBF1AC4@pobox.com>
Message-ID: <EA08D4CE-C972-4965-A736-343CA2081A49@cs.depaul.edu>

Actually it is Python that calls Posix inside and exposes similar  
APIs ;-)

You may like this too

http://mdp.cti.depaul.edu/Teaching/static/tdc561_notes.pdf

Massimo

On Dec 26, 2008, at 10:24 AM, Pete wrote:

> C, but the best I've seen: http://beej.us/guide/bgnet/output/html/ 
> multipage/index.html
>
> When I look at C, I can see the Python within.
>
> On Dec 25, 2008, at 10:37 AM, Daniel Griffin wrote:
>
>> http://www.amk.ca/python/howto/sockets/
>>
>> On Thu, Dec 25, 2008 at 2:54 AM, Craig  
>> <fasteliteprogrammer at yahoo.com> wrote:
>> Is there a good link on python socket programming?
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Chicago mailing list
>> Chicago at python.org
>> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Chicago mailing list
>> Chicago at python.org
>> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>
> <ATT00001.txt>

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From pfein at pobox.com  Fri Dec 26 18:11:52 2008
From: pfein at pobox.com (Pete)
Date: Fri, 26 Dec 2008 12:11:52 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] sockets Question
In-Reply-To: <EA08D4CE-C972-4965-A736-343CA2081A49@cs.depaul.edu>
References: <299689.32567.qm@web36503.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<3db160680812250737n7df14956s1935481d636cf037@mail.gmail.com>
	<CCE9BA13-57BB-4A97-A188-8CAF2DBF1AC4@pobox.com>
	<EA08D4CE-C972-4965-A736-343CA2081A49@cs.depaul.edu>
Message-ID: <1E347576-68AF-4AE9-BE43-6CECBAE1E117@pobox.com>

On Dec 26, 2008, at 11:31 AM, Massimo Di Pierro wrote:
> On Dec 26, 2008, at 10:24 AM, Pete wrote:
>
>> When I look at C, I can see the Python within.
>
> Actually it is Python that calls Posix inside and exposes similar  
> APIs ;-)

Yeah, they read Knuth so I don't have to.

I never learned C. ;-)

--Pete

PS- I think that's quoteboard worthy, no?

From dgriff1 at gmail.com  Fri Dec 26 18:31:08 2008
From: dgriff1 at gmail.com (Daniel Griffin)
Date: Fri, 26 Dec 2008 11:31:08 -0600
Subject: [Chicago] sockets Question
In-Reply-To: <1E347576-68AF-4AE9-BE43-6CECBAE1E117@pobox.com>
References: <299689.32567.qm@web36503.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<3db160680812250737n7df14956s1935481d636cf037@mail.gmail.com>
	<CCE9BA13-57BB-4A97-A188-8CAF2DBF1AC4@pobox.com>
	<EA08D4CE-C972-4965-A736-343CA2081A49@cs.depaul.edu>
	<1E347576-68AF-4AE9-BE43-6CECBAE1E117@pobox.com>
Message-ID: <3db160680812260931p662f5ca4o363e72cfe4bf3e80@mail.gmail.com>

C is the one true language. Python sockets are really easy to use and
everything, but due to the way python works you have to pass everything as a
string, which makes sending things like datetime's a pain. In C you just
cast it to char* and then cast it back on the other end.

Dan



On Fri, Dec 26, 2008 at 11:11 AM, Pete <pfein at pobox.com> wrote:

> On Dec 26, 2008, at 11:31 AM, Massimo Di Pierro wrote:
>
>> On Dec 26, 2008, at 10:24 AM, Pete wrote:
>>
>>  When I look at C, I can see the Python within.
>>>
>>
>> Actually it is Python that calls Posix inside and exposes similar APIs ;-)
>>
>
> Yeah, they read Knuth so I don't have to.
>
> I never learned C. ;-)
>
> --Pete
>
> PS- I think that's quoteboard worthy, no?
>
> _______________________________________________
> Chicago mailing list
> Chicago at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>
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From carl at personnelware.com  Fri Dec 26 19:08:29 2008
From: carl at personnelware.com (Carl Karsten)
Date: Fri, 26 Dec 2008 12:08:29 -0600
Subject: [Chicago] sockets Question
In-Reply-To: <3db160680812260931p662f5ca4o363e72cfe4bf3e80@mail.gmail.com>
References: <299689.32567.qm@web36503.mail.mud.yahoo.com>	<3db160680812250737n7df14956s1935481d636cf037@mail.gmail.com>	<CCE9BA13-57BB-4A97-A188-8CAF2DBF1AC4@pobox.com>	<EA08D4CE-C972-4965-A736-343CA2081A49@cs.depaul.edu>	<1E347576-68AF-4AE9-BE43-6CECBAE1E117@pobox.com>
	<3db160680812260931p662f5ca4o363e72cfe4bf3e80@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <49551D9D.8050505@personnelware.com>

"just cast it to char*" is just a form of serializing.  (I am pretty sure it is 
a poor form, but that's debatable.)

 >>> help(pickle)
     pickle - Create portable serialized representations of Python objects.

http://doc.python.org/lib/module-pickle.html
"The pickle module can transform a complex object into a byte stream and it can 
transform the byte stream into an object with the same internal structure. 
Perhaps the most obvious thing to do with these byte streams is to write them 
onto a file, but it is also conceivable to send them across a network or store 
them in a database."

Carl K


Daniel Griffin wrote:
> C is the one true language. Python sockets are really easy to use and
> everything, but due to the way python works you have to pass everything as a
> string, which makes sending things like datetime's a pain. In C you just
> cast it to char* and then cast it back on the other end.
> 
> Dan
> 
> 
> 
> On Fri, Dec 26, 2008 at 11:11 AM, Pete <pfein at pobox.com> wrote:
> 
>> On Dec 26, 2008, at 11:31 AM, Massimo Di Pierro wrote:
>>
>>> On Dec 26, 2008, at 10:24 AM, Pete wrote:
>>>
>>>  When I look at C, I can see the Python within.
>>> Actually it is Python that calls Posix inside and exposes similar APIs ;-)
>>>
>> Yeah, they read Knuth so I don't have to.
>>
>> I never learned C. ;-)
>>
>> --Pete
>>
>> PS- I think that's quoteboard worthy, no?
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Chicago mailing list
>> Chicago at python.org
>> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>>
> 
> 
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Chicago mailing list
> Chicago at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago

From dgriff1 at gmail.com  Fri Dec 26 19:18:34 2008
From: dgriff1 at gmail.com (Daniel Griffin)
Date: Fri, 26 Dec 2008 12:18:34 -0600
Subject: [Chicago] sockets Question
In-Reply-To: <49551D9D.8050505@personnelware.com>
References: <299689.32567.qm@web36503.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<3db160680812250737n7df14956s1935481d636cf037@mail.gmail.com>
	<CCE9BA13-57BB-4A97-A188-8CAF2DBF1AC4@pobox.com>
	<EA08D4CE-C972-4965-A736-343CA2081A49@cs.depaul.edu>
	<1E347576-68AF-4AE9-BE43-6CECBAE1E117@pobox.com>
	<3db160680812260931p662f5ca4o363e72cfe4bf3e80@mail.gmail.com>
	<49551D9D.8050505@personnelware.com>
Message-ID: <3db160680812261018i1882c8cdoec41a916030d0cab@mail.gmail.com>

Yup, pickle would work. I ended up turning the datetimes into strings then
parsing them back into datetimes on the other end, I might end up writing a
client in Java or C so this is the most flexible approach I think.

Dan

On Fri, Dec 26, 2008 at 12:08 PM, Carl Karsten <carl at personnelware.com>wrote:

> "just cast it to char*" is just a form of serializing.  (I am pretty sure
> it is a poor form, but that's debatable.)
>
> >>> help(pickle)
>    pickle - Create portable serialized representations of Python objects.
>
> http://doc.python.org/lib/module-pickle.html
> "The pickle module can transform a complex object into a byte stream and it
> can transform the byte stream into an object with the same internal
> structure. Perhaps the most obvious thing to do with these byte streams is
> to write them onto a file, but it is also conceivable to send them across a
> network or store them in a database."
>
> Carl K
>
>
> Daniel Griffin wrote:
>
>> C is the one true language. Python sockets are really easy to use and
>> everything, but due to the way python works you have to pass everything as
>> a
>> string, which makes sending things like datetime's a pain. In C you just
>> cast it to char* and then cast it back on the other end.
>>
>> Dan
>>
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Dec 26, 2008 at 11:11 AM, Pete <pfein at pobox.com> wrote:
>>
>>  On Dec 26, 2008, at 11:31 AM, Massimo Di Pierro wrote:
>>>
>>>  On Dec 26, 2008, at 10:24 AM, Pete wrote:
>>>>
>>>>  When I look at C, I can see the Python within.
>>>> Actually it is Python that calls Posix inside and exposes similar APIs
>>>> ;-)
>>>>
>>>>  Yeah, they read Knuth so I don't have to.
>>>
>>> I never learned C. ;-)
>>>
>>> --Pete
>>>
>>> PS- I think that's quoteboard worthy, no?
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Chicago mailing list
>>> Chicago at python.org
>>> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>>>
>>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Chicago mailing list
>> Chicago at python.org
>> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>>
> _______________________________________________
> Chicago mailing list
> Chicago at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>
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From shekay at pobox.com  Sat Dec 27 00:48:37 2008
From: shekay at pobox.com (sheila miguez)
Date: Fri, 26 Dec 2008 17:48:37 -0600
Subject: [Chicago] python on android?
Message-ID: <a68ced640812261548m54f0c212vf8f0168d740f3c2b@mail.gmail.com>

I'd like to hear a talk about python on android. Has anyone in the
group played around with it yet?

-- 
sheila

From jason.gessner at gmail.com  Sat Dec 27 01:29:14 2008
From: jason.gessner at gmail.com (jason gessner)
Date: Fri, 26 Dec 2008 18:29:14 -0600
Subject: [Chicago] python on android?
In-Reply-To: <a68ced640812261548m54f0c212vf8f0168d740f3c2b@mail.gmail.com>
References: <a68ced640812261548m54f0c212vf8f0168d740f3c2b@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <fdc44b3f0812261629t60b85e4ax81f39be5d7debb56@mail.gmail.com>

there was just a blog post with someone who compiled python for
android using cross-compilation.
http://www.damonkohler.com/2008/12/python-on-android.html

There is no out-of-the-box python support, but the platform is open
source, so one will show up soon.  :)

-jason

On Fri, Dec 26, 2008 at 5:48 PM, sheila miguez <shekay at pobox.com> wrote:
> I'd like to hear a talk about python on android. Has anyone in the
> group played around with it yet?
>
> --
> sheila
> _______________________________________________
> Chicago mailing list
> Chicago at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>

From shekay at pobox.com  Sat Dec 27 17:46:12 2008
From: shekay at pobox.com (sheila miguez)
Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2008 10:46:12 -0600
Subject: [Chicago] python on android?
In-Reply-To: <fdc44b3f0812261629t60b85e4ax81f39be5d7debb56@mail.gmail.com>
References: <a68ced640812261548m54f0c212vf8f0168d740f3c2b@mail.gmail.com>
	<fdc44b3f0812261629t60b85e4ax81f39be5d7debb56@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <a68ced640812270846k5fed6de8obf101b4eec4fc3c1@mail.gmail.com>

Yeah, I searched and found the blog post before posting, so figured it
is plausible that someone here is playing around and could give a
talk.

On Fri, Dec 26, 2008 at 6:29 PM, jason gessner <jason.gessner at gmail.com> wrote:
> there was just a blog post with someone who compiled python for
> android using cross-compilation.
> http://www.damonkohler.com/2008/12/python-on-android.html
>
> There is no out-of-the-box python support, but the platform is open
> source, so one will show up soon.  :)
>
> -jason
>
> On Fri, Dec 26, 2008 at 5:48 PM, sheila miguez <shekay at pobox.com> wrote:
>> I'd like to hear a talk about python on android. Has anyone in the
>> group played around with it yet?
>>
>> --
>> sheila
>> _______________________________________________
>> Chicago mailing list
>> Chicago at python.org
>> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>>
> _______________________________________________
> Chicago mailing list
> Chicago at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>



-- 
sheila

From maney at two14.net  Sat Dec 27 23:21:24 2008
From: maney at two14.net (Martin Maney)
Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2008 16:21:24 -0600
Subject: [Chicago] sockets Question
In-Reply-To: <1E347576-68AF-4AE9-BE43-6CECBAE1E117@pobox.com>
References: <299689.32567.qm@web36503.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<3db160680812250737n7df14956s1935481d636cf037@mail.gmail.com>
	<CCE9BA13-57BB-4A97-A188-8CAF2DBF1AC4@pobox.com>
	<EA08D4CE-C972-4965-A736-343CA2081A49@cs.depaul.edu>
	<1E347576-68AF-4AE9-BE43-6CECBAE1E117@pobox.com>
Message-ID: <20081227222124.GA11454@furrr.two14.net>

On Fri, Dec 26, 2008 at 12:11:52PM -0500, Pete wrote:
> On Dec 26, 2008, at 11:31 AM, Massimo Di Pierro wrote:
>> On Dec 26, 2008, at 10:24 AM, Pete wrote:
>>
>>> When I look at C, I can see the Python within.
>>
>> Actually it is Python that calls Posix inside and exposes similar APIs 
>> ;-)
>
> Yeah, they read Knuth so I don't have to.
>
> I never learned C. ;-)
>
> --Pete
>
> PS- I think that's quoteboard worthy, no?

No, too non-seq.  Knuth has never written anything about C or Python
that I can think of; nor about socket programming, come to think of it.

Perhaps you could substitute "Stevens", though I'm not sure that anyone
not a pure Unixhead would agree that he dominated that field the way
Knuth did his.  :-)

-- 
If I had charged one dollar for Samba, it would have never been successful.
The way I was doing stuff was not about money, and I am not at all resentful
of companies that have made money from Samba. At the same time, if they all
went away, we would still have a great community to work on stuff. I think
of the last year or two as being the biggest private investment in public
works in decades.  -- Andrew Tridgell, c. 2001


From shekay at pobox.com  Sun Dec 28 00:39:51 2008
From: shekay at pobox.com (sheila miguez)
Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2008 17:39:51 -0600
Subject: [Chicago] sockets Question
In-Reply-To: <49551D9D.8050505@personnelware.com>
References: <299689.32567.qm@web36503.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<3db160680812250737n7df14956s1935481d636cf037@mail.gmail.com>
	<CCE9BA13-57BB-4A97-A188-8CAF2DBF1AC4@pobox.com>
	<EA08D4CE-C972-4965-A736-343CA2081A49@cs.depaul.edu>
	<1E347576-68AF-4AE9-BE43-6CECBAE1E117@pobox.com>
	<3db160680812260931p662f5ca4o363e72cfe4bf3e80@mail.gmail.com>
	<49551D9D.8050505@personnelware.com>
Message-ID: <a68ced640812271539o76009363odd7f7dfa6cf2a963@mail.gmail.com>

can serialize with protocol buffers, and there is a tutorial for python

http://code.google.com/apis/protocolbuffers/docs/pythontutorial.html

On Fri, Dec 26, 2008 at 12:08 PM, Carl Karsten <carl at personnelware.com> wrote:
> "just cast it to char*" is just a form of serializing.  (I am pretty sure it
> is a poor form, but that's debatable.)
>
>>>> help(pickle)
>    pickle - Create portable serialized representations of Python objects.
>
> http://doc.python.org/lib/module-pickle.html
> "The pickle module can transform a complex object into a byte stream and it
> can transform the byte stream into an object with the same internal
> structure. Perhaps the most obvious thing to do with these byte streams is
> to write them onto a file, but it is also conceivable to send them across a
> network or store them in a database."
>
> Carl K
>
>
> Daniel Griffin wrote:
>>
>> C is the one true language. Python sockets are really easy to use and
>> everything, but due to the way python works you have to pass everything as
>> a
>> string, which makes sending things like datetime's a pain. In C you just
>> cast it to char* and then cast it back on the other end.
>>
>> Dan
>>
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Dec 26, 2008 at 11:11 AM, Pete <pfein at pobox.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On Dec 26, 2008, at 11:31 AM, Massimo Di Pierro wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Dec 26, 2008, at 10:24 AM, Pete wrote:
>>>>
>>>>  When I look at C, I can see the Python within.
>>>> Actually it is Python that calls Posix inside and exposes similar APIs
>>>> ;-)
>>>>
>>> Yeah, they read Knuth so I don't have to.
>>>
>>> I never learned C. ;-)
>>>
>>> --Pete
>>>
>>> PS- I think that's quoteboard worthy, no?
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Chicago mailing list
>>> Chicago at python.org
>>> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Chicago mailing list
>> Chicago at python.org
>> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>
> _______________________________________________
> Chicago mailing list
> Chicago at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>



-- 
sheila

From pfein at pobox.com  Sun Dec 28 03:55:53 2008
From: pfein at pobox.com (Pete)
Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2008 21:55:53 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] sockets Question
In-Reply-To: <20081227222124.GA11454@furrr.two14.net>
References: <299689.32567.qm@web36503.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<3db160680812250737n7df14956s1935481d636cf037@mail.gmail.com>
	<CCE9BA13-57BB-4A97-A188-8CAF2DBF1AC4@pobox.com>
	<EA08D4CE-C972-4965-A736-343CA2081A49@cs.depaul.edu>
	<1E347576-68AF-4AE9-BE43-6CECBAE1E117@pobox.com>
	<20081227222124.GA11454@furrr.two14.net>
Message-ID: <9A240B49-6A34-4ADF-A94D-42C5D30CDF18@pobox.com>

On Dec 27, 2008, at 5:21 PM, Martin Maney wrote:

> On Fri, Dec 26, 2008 at 12:11:52PM -0500, Pete wrote:
>> On Dec 26, 2008, at 11:31 AM, Massimo Di Pierro wrote:
>>> On Dec 26, 2008, at 10:24 AM, Pete wrote:

>> PS- I think that's quoteboard worthy, no?


I meant re:

>>>> When I look at C, I can see the Python within.
>>

> No, too non-seq.  Knuth has never written anything about C or Python
> that I can think of; nor about socket programming, come to think of  
> it.

Umm, tell that to Tim Peters: http://www.amk.ca/quotations/python-quotes/page-10


From maney at two14.net  Sun Dec 28 08:23:04 2008
From: maney at two14.net (Martin Maney)
Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2008 01:23:04 -0600
Subject: [Chicago] sockets Question
In-Reply-To: <9A240B49-6A34-4ADF-A94D-42C5D30CDF18@pobox.com>
References: <299689.32567.qm@web36503.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<3db160680812250737n7df14956s1935481d636cf037@mail.gmail.com>
	<CCE9BA13-57BB-4A97-A188-8CAF2DBF1AC4@pobox.com>
	<EA08D4CE-C972-4965-A736-343CA2081A49@cs.depaul.edu>
	<1E347576-68AF-4AE9-BE43-6CECBAE1E117@pobox.com>
	<20081227222124.GA11454@furrr.two14.net>
	<9A240B49-6A34-4ADF-A94D-42C5D30CDF18@pobox.com>
Message-ID: <20081228072304.GE11454@furrr.two14.net>

On Sat, Dec 27, 2008 at 09:55:53PM -0500, Pete wrote:

>> No, too non-seq.  Knuth has never written anything about C or Python
>> that I can think of; nor about socket programming, come to think of  
>> it.

> Umm, tell that to Tim Peters: http://www.amk.ca/quotations/python-quotes/page-10

Context, Pete.

  Professor Knuth's masterful work on the topics of sorting and
  searching spans some 800 pages of sophisticated technical text.  In
  Python practice, we reduce it to two imperatives (we read Knuth so
  you don't have to):

  * When you need to sort, find a way to use the built-in sort method
    of Python lists

  * When you need to search, find a way to use built-in dictionaries.

-- 
If there is a lesson to be learnt from Adobe's eBook
fiasco, it is that litigation is no substitute for
well-designed software.  -- The Economist


From shekay at pobox.com  Mon Dec 29 16:45:51 2008
From: shekay at pobox.com (sheila miguez)
Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2008 09:45:51 -0600
Subject: [Chicago] PyS60 new release
Message-ID: <a68ced640812290745k1d6b0cc9xe94ea9dc793be24b@mail.gmail.com>

They just released a beta with support for 2.5.1!


-- 
sheila

From fasteliteprogrammer at yahoo.com  Mon Dec 29 21:28:09 2008
From: fasteliteprogrammer at yahoo.com (Craig)
Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2008 12:28:09 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Chicago] telnet script into a router
Message-ID: <213852.44077.qm@web36502.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Is there a way i can telnet into a router to router in a python script with telnet and how would i start out this out.


      

From dgriff1 at gmail.com  Mon Dec 29 21:35:53 2008
From: dgriff1 at gmail.com (Daniel Griffin)
Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2008 14:35:53 -0600
Subject: [Chicago] telnet script into a router
In-Reply-To: <213852.44077.qm@web36502.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <213852.44077.qm@web36502.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <3db160680812291235w44e3b41ey39524f77683199a7@mail.gmail.com>

Telnet is simple, connect with a socket and send the commands you want and
read the responses using send and recv.

On Mon, Dec 29, 2008 at 2:28 PM, Craig <fasteliteprogrammer at yahoo.com>wrote:

> Is there a way i can telnet into a router to router in a python script with
> telnet and how would i start out this out.
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Chicago mailing list
> Chicago at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>
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From tim.saylor at gmail.com  Mon Dec 29 21:36:22 2008
From: tim.saylor at gmail.com (Tim Saylor)
Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2008 14:36:22 -0600
Subject: [Chicago] telnet script into a router
In-Reply-To: <213852.44077.qm@web36502.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <213852.44077.qm@web36502.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <9fb45b0b0812291236u174c45aap906a1152e196776f@mail.gmail.com>

http://letmegooglethatforyou.com/?q=python+telnet

On Mon, Dec 29, 2008 at 2:28 PM, Craig <fasteliteprogrammer at yahoo.com> wrote:
> Is there a way i can telnet into a router to router in a python script with telnet and how would i start out this out.
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Chicago mailing list
> Chicago at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>

From tottinge at gmail.com  Mon Dec 29 21:41:36 2008
From: tottinge at gmail.com (Tim Ottinger)
Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2008 14:41:36 -0600
Subject: [Chicago] telnet script into a router
In-Reply-To: <9fb45b0b0812291236u174c45aap906a1152e196776f@mail.gmail.com>
References: <213852.44077.qm@web36502.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<9fb45b0b0812291236u174c45aap906a1152e196776f@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <49593600.3070507@gmail.com>

If you feel extra saucy, try pexpect

From fasteliteprogrammer at yahoo.com  Mon Dec 29 21:47:38 2008
From: fasteliteprogrammer at yahoo.com (Craig)
Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2008 12:47:38 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Chicago] telnet script into a router
Message-ID: <310607.30021.qm@web36501.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

thanks

--- On Mon, 12/29/08, Daniel Griffin <dgriff1 at gmail.com> wrote:

From: Daniel Griffin <dgriff1 at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Chicago] telnet script into a router
To: "The Chicago Python Users Group" <chicago at python.org>
Date: Monday, December 29, 2008, 2:35 PM


-----Inline Attachment Follows-----

Telnet is simple, connect with a socket and send the commands you want and read the responses using send and recv. 

On Mon, Dec 29, 2008 at 2:28 PM, Craig <fasteliteprogrammer at yahoo.com> wrote:

Is there a way i can telnet into a router to router in a python script with telnet and how would i start out this out.








_______________________________________________

Chicago mailing list

Chicago at python.org

http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago




-----Inline Attachment Follows-----

_______________________________________________
Chicago mailing list
Chicago at python.org
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago



      
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