From dave.niesman at ieee.org Thu Nov 1 05:54:11 2007 From: dave.niesman at ieee.org (Dave Niesman) Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2007 23:54:11 -0500 Subject: [Chicago] MIT to switch to Python for intro to CS courses. Message-ID: Hi, sponge00819:00:02 Is AP (AB) Computer Science credit accepted at MIT? I've heard MIT beginner's classes are in Scheme, rather than Java or C++, making it rather different. kedlaya19:00:12 sponge008: I don't know about the AP credit, but MIT is planning to shift the first course in computer science over to Python instead of Scheme. Has anyone else heard this? Here is my source: (Art of Problem Solving Math Jam about MIT Admissions) http://www.artofproblemsolving.com/Community/AoPS_Y_MJ_Transcripts.php?mj_id=217 Kiran Kedlaya is an Associate Professor of Mathematics at MIT. His research is in arithmetic algebraic geometry and algebraic number theory. Prof. Kedlaya is a former IMO medalist (several times), a Putnam winner (several times) and serves on the AoPS Foundation Board of Directors. His home page is http://www.mit.edu/~kedlaya/. From catherine.devlin at gmail.com Thu Nov 1 17:28:33 2007 From: catherine.devlin at gmail.com (Catherine Devlin) Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2007 12:28:33 -0400 Subject: [Chicago] MIT to switch to Python for intro to CS courses. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6523e39a0711010928g4f2e538cw3df962fa0394b177@mail.gmail.com> Hi, Not precisely accurate - last published information I read stated that a Python-based class (6.099) was being developed that would be an alternative to, not a replacement of, the classic 6.001 Scheme-based introductory programming course. It's not yet listed in http://student.mit.edu/catalog/m6a.html, so I don't think it's online yet. Maybe I'll ask on the Boston python list. Somebody there ought to know... http://www-tech.mit.edu/V125/N65/coursevi.html On 11/1/07, Dave Niesman wrote: > sponge008: I don't know about the AP credit, but MIT is planning to > shift the first course in computer science over to Python instead of > Scheme. -- - Catherine http://catherinedevlin.blogspot.com/ From catherine.devlin at gmail.com Thu Nov 1 17:41:31 2007 From: catherine.devlin at gmail.com (Catherine Devlin) Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2007 12:41:31 -0400 Subject: [Chicago] MIT to switch to Python for intro to CS courses. In-Reply-To: <6523e39a0711010928g4f2e538cw3df962fa0394b177@mail.gmail.com> References: <6523e39a0711010928g4f2e538cw3df962fa0394b177@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6523e39a0711010941r59d5cd47we649070f63c0af64@mail.gmail.com> I take it back! I was wrong, wrong, wrong! It appears 6.099 was only a preliminary designation for the class - it's been renamed 6.01, and it's definitely Python. http://courses.csail.mit.edu/6.01/fall07/software/ 6.01 is the cornerstone class for the new curriculum for all EECS classes 2011+ (i. e. freshmen who entered this Fall). The preceding year, students could choose between the old curriculum and the new 6.01-based one, but not this year. In fact, the EE students take it, too - 'cause it's robotics programming. Sounds fun! http://www.eecs.mit.edu/ug/newcurriculum/SBCS_6-3.html Well, this is exciting. I'm blogging it. (I kind of hate to see the Scheme version go, b/c it didn't deserve to die until every Java-based intro to programming course around the world was gone and buried, but Python will be good for the students *and* good for the science.) On 11/1/07, Catherine Devlin wrote: > Hi, > > Not precisely accurate - last published information I read stated that > a Python-based class (6.099) was being developed that would be an > alternative to, not a replacement of, the classic 6.001 Scheme-based > introductory programming course. -- - Catherine http://catherinedevlin.blogspot.com/ From dave.niesman at ieee.org Thu Nov 1 18:25:53 2007 From: dave.niesman at ieee.org (Dave Niesman) Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2007 12:25:53 -0500 Subject: [Chicago] MIT to switch to Python for intro to CS courses. In-Reply-To: <6523e39a0711010941r59d5cd47we649070f63c0af64@mail.gmail.com> References: <6523e39a0711010928g4f2e538cw3df962fa0394b177@mail.gmail.com> <6523e39a0711010941r59d5cd47we649070f63c0af64@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: > http://courses.csail.mit.edu/6.01/fall07/software/ > > 6.01 is the cornerstone class for the new curriculum for all EECS > classes 2011+ (i. e. freshmen who entered this Fall). The preceding > year, students could choose between the old curriculum and the new > 6.01-based one, but not this year. In fact, the EE students take it, > too - 'cause it's robotics programming. Sounds fun! > > http://www.eecs.mit.edu/ug/newcurriculum/SBCS_6-3.html > > Well, this is exciting. I'm blogging it. (I kind of hate to see the > Scheme version go, b/c it didn't deserve to die until every Java-based > intro to programming course around the world was gone and buried, but > Python will be good for the students *and* good for the science.) > And a few hundred MITer's learning Python right away should be good for Python. (Spoken as a proud U of I grad.) Now if we can just get Urbana and Berkeley and Pittsburgh and .... From chris.mcavoy at gmail.com Thu Nov 1 20:57:43 2007 From: chris.mcavoy at gmail.com (Chris McAvoy) Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2007 14:57:43 -0500 Subject: [Chicago] [OT] Dijit Widgets Message-ID: <3096c19d0711011257g3f92b06cka3cd21f38a2922b4@mail.gmail.com> I just recently caught up with Dojo...these neat-o "Dijits" seem like they're God's gift to Javascript, which makes me sort of weary. Especially as I can't find anyone actually using them, and the demo page on the main Dojo site appears broken. Is anyone using these things? I'm really hoping they're awesome, as I dislike layout and design, and love data. Chris From emperorcezar at gmail.com Thu Nov 1 21:19:16 2007 From: emperorcezar at gmail.com (Adam Jenkins) Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2007 15:19:16 -0500 Subject: [Chicago] [OT] Dijit Widgets In-Reply-To: <3096c19d0711011257g3f92b06cka3cd21f38a2922b4@mail.gmail.com> References: <3096c19d0711011257g3f92b06cka3cd21f38a2922b4@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <58a5f2220711011319o38ad1276pf197e10626e37b99@mail.gmail.com> On 11/1/07, Chris McAvoy wrote: > > I just recently caught up with Dojo...these neat-o "Dijits" seem like > they're God's gift to Javascript, which makes me sort of weary. > Especially as I can't find anyone actually using them, and the demo > page on the main Dojo site appears broken. > > Is anyone using these things? I'm really hoping they're awesome, as I > dislike layout and design, and love data. I think that they are very new, that's probably why no one is using them. I'm gonna start playing with Dojo soon, I'll tell you what I find out. Chris > _______________________________________________ > Chicago mailing list > Chicago at python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago > -- --------------------------------------- Adam Jenkins emperorcezar at gmail.com 312-399-5161 --------------------------------------- -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mail.python.org/pipermail/chicago/attachments/20071101/21c7fa53/attachment.htm From cwurld at yahoo.com Thu Nov 1 22:22:11 2007 From: cwurld at yahoo.com (Chuck Martin) Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2007 14:22:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Chicago] [OT] Dijit Widgets In-Reply-To: <3096c19d0711011257g3f92b06cka3cd21f38a2922b4@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <675585.23064.qm@web50204.mail.re2.yahoo.com> About 9 months ago, I tried using dojo with my Django site. Although dojo looked promising, I found it frustrating to use. The documentation was incomplete and sometimes contradictory. I had the most luck when I used their unit tests as documentation. About the same time, I also explored Yahoo's User Interface (YUI) library. I had much better luck with it. It has better documentation and lots of examples. So dropped Dojo and am using YUI exclusively. YUI also has an incredibly active Yahoo Users Group and it appears that they have people on the payroll who work on this code full time. One thing that real amazed me was I was using their layout code and ran into troubles with Safari. So I posted a note on the message board. Some one responded quickly and we exchanged several messages. I turns out he was one of the Yahoo developers. Since I could not resolve the problem, he actually logged into my webpage and worked on the problem for several hours. Unfortunately he could not resolve it, but I applaud the effort. I think putting YUI in the public domain is good for Yahoo and good for the rest of us. They get a huge group of testers for free and we get some pretty robust code. Chuck --- Chris McAvoy wrote: > I just recently caught up with Dojo...these neat-o > "Dijits" seem like > they're God's gift to Javascript, which makes me > sort of weary. > Especially as I can't find anyone actually using > them, and the demo > page on the main Dojo site appears broken. > > Is anyone using these things? I'm really hoping > they're awesome, as I > dislike layout and design, and love data. > > Chris > _______________________________________________ > Chicago mailing list > Chicago at python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From emperorcezar at gmail.com Thu Nov 1 22:37:37 2007 From: emperorcezar at gmail.com (Adam Jenkins) Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2007 16:37:37 -0500 Subject: [Chicago] [OT] Dijit Widgets In-Reply-To: <675585.23064.qm@web50204.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <3096c19d0711011257g3f92b06cka3cd21f38a2922b4@mail.gmail.com> <675585.23064.qm@web50204.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <58a5f2220711011437u5f51f1b5ua3fe9bc34783ebf9@mail.gmail.com> I've heard good things, but I've also heard that YUI "forces" (defaults) you into using Yahoo services? Yea, I heard about Dojo having incomplete documentation. Could I ask, what version were you using? They seem to be up to 0.9 and 1.0 beta. On 11/1/07, Chuck Martin wrote: > > About 9 months ago, I tried using dojo with my Django > site. Although dojo looked promising, I found it > frustrating to use. The documentation was incomplete > and sometimes contradictory. I had the most luck when > I used their unit tests as documentation. > > About the same time, I also explored Yahoo's User > Interface (YUI) library. I had much better luck with > it. It has better documentation and lots of examples. > So dropped Dojo and am using YUI exclusively. > > YUI also has an incredibly active Yahoo Users Group > and it appears that they have people on the payroll > who work on this code full time. > > One thing that real amazed me was I was using their > layout code and ran into troubles with Safari. So I > posted a note on the message board. Some one responded > quickly and we exchanged several messages. I turns out > he was one of the Yahoo developers. Since I could not > resolve the problem, he actually logged into my > webpage and worked on the problem for several hours. > Unfortunately he could not resolve it, but I applaud > the effort. > > I think putting YUI in the public domain is good for > Yahoo and good for the rest of us. They get a huge > group of testers for free and we get some pretty > robust code. > > Chuck > > > --- Chris McAvoy wrote: > > > I just recently caught up with Dojo...these neat-o > > "Dijits" seem like > > they're God's gift to Javascript, which makes me > > sort of weary. > > Especially as I can't find anyone actually using > > them, and the demo > > page on the main Dojo site appears broken. > > > > Is anyone using these things? I'm really hoping > > they're awesome, as I > > dislike layout and design, and love data. > > > > Chris > > _______________________________________________ > > Chicago mailing list > > Chicago at python.org > > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago > > > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com > _______________________________________________ > Chicago mailing list > Chicago at python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago > -- --------------------------------------- Adam Jenkins emperorcezar at gmail.com 312-399-5161 --------------------------------------- -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mail.python.org/pipermail/chicago/attachments/20071101/dc3f5860/attachment.htm From cwurld at yahoo.com Thu Nov 1 23:05:17 2007 From: cwurld at yahoo.com (Chuck Martin) Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2007 15:05:17 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Chicago] [OT] Dijit Widgets In-Reply-To: <58a5f2220711011437u5f51f1b5ua3fe9bc34783ebf9@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <41457.90163.qm@web50206.mail.re2.yahoo.com> I am not sure what you mean by "forces you to use Yahoo services". I can't speak for the whole package, but the parts I am using seem to be self contained javascript that can run independent of the yahoo website. Maybe the confusion comes from the 2 ways you can use the code. You can download it and serve it from your own server. Or you can have the yahoo server serve the code for you. The advantage of having yahoo serve it is you will always have the most recent version. Since they are so active, I think that is a big plus. Or the confusion may come from one of yahoo's css files. They have one that they encourage all users to use. What is does is explicitly set a bunch of styles. They say the reason they do this is to create a consistent starting point. Without that css, each browser sets defaults for all those styles. Using this style sheet is optional. I found that it helped me avoid a lot of problems and made my webpage behave more consistently across browsers. But even with this style sheet, I can set my styles to whatever I want. I'm sorry, I don't recall what version of Dojo I used. It was 9 months ago. It looked promising then. If I had to start from scratch today, I would definitely look into dojo. --- Adam Jenkins wrote: > I've heard good things, but I've also heard that YUI > "forces" (defaults) you > into using Yahoo services? > Yea, I heard about Dojo having incomplete > documentation. Could I ask, what > version were you using? They seem to be up to 0.9 > and 1.0 beta. > > On 11/1/07, Chuck Martin wrote: > > > > About 9 months ago, I tried using dojo with my > Django > > site. Although dojo looked promising, I found it > > frustrating to use. The documentation was > incomplete > > and sometimes contradictory. I had the most luck > when > > I used their unit tests as documentation. > > > > About the same time, I also explored Yahoo's User > > Interface (YUI) library. I had much better luck > with > > it. It has better documentation and lots of > examples. > > So dropped Dojo and am using YUI exclusively. > > > > YUI also has an incredibly active Yahoo Users > Group > > and it appears that they have people on the > payroll > > who work on this code full time. > > > > One thing that real amazed me was I was using > their > > layout code and ran into troubles with Safari. So > I > > posted a note on the message board. Some one > responded > > quickly and we exchanged several messages. I turns > out > > he was one of the Yahoo developers. Since I could > not > > resolve the problem, he actually logged into my > > webpage and worked on the problem for several > hours. > > Unfortunately he could not resolve it, but I > applaud > > the effort. > > > > I think putting YUI in the public domain is good > for > > Yahoo and good for the rest of us. They get a huge > > group of testers for free and we get some pretty > > robust code. > > > > Chuck > > > > > > --- Chris McAvoy wrote: > > > > > I just recently caught up with Dojo...these > neat-o > > > "Dijits" seem like > > > they're God's gift to Javascript, which makes me > > > sort of weary. > > > Especially as I can't find anyone actually using > > > them, and the demo > > > page on the main Dojo site appears broken. > > > > > > Is anyone using these things? I'm really hoping > > > they're awesome, as I > > > dislike layout and design, and love data. > > > > > > Chris > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Chicago mailing list > > > Chicago at python.org > > > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago > > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > > Do You Yahoo!? > > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam > protection around > > http://mail.yahoo.com > > _______________________________________________ > > Chicago mailing list > > Chicago at python.org > > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago > > > > > > -- > --------------------------------------- > Adam Jenkins > emperorcezar at gmail.com > 312-399-5161 > --------------------------------------- > > _______________________________________________ > Chicago mailing list > Chicago at python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From jeffh at dundeemt.com Fri Nov 2 00:17:08 2007 From: jeffh at dundeemt.com (Jeff Hinrichs - DM&T) Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2007 18:17:08 -0500 Subject: [Chicago] [OT] Dijit Widgets In-Reply-To: <41457.90163.qm@web50206.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <58a5f2220711011437u5f51f1b5ua3fe9bc34783ebf9@mail.gmail.com> <41457.90163.qm@web50206.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <5aaed53f0711011617o58c0b1abh8661e4c6e78722e7@mail.gmail.com> I'm +1 on YUI too. Until then I had been using prototypejs but YUI has lots of people using it, which translates into results when you are searching. When I get a minute to breathe I plan on trying out ExtJS. -Jeff On 11/1/07, Chuck Martin wrote: > I am not sure what you mean by "forces you to use > Yahoo services". I can't speak for the whole package, > but the parts I am using seem to be self contained > javascript that can run independent of the yahoo > website. > > Maybe the confusion comes from the 2 ways you can use > the code. You can download it and serve it from your > own server. Or you can have the yahoo server serve the > code for you. The advantage of having yahoo serve it > is you will always have the most recent version. Since > they are so active, I think that is a big plus. > > Or the confusion may come from one of yahoo's css > files. They have one that they encourage all users to > use. What is does is explicitly set a bunch of styles. > They say the reason they do this is to create a > consistent starting point. Without that css, each > browser sets defaults for all those styles. Using this > style sheet is optional. I found that it helped me > avoid a lot of problems and made my webpage behave > more consistently across browsers. But even with this > style sheet, I can set my styles to whatever I want. > > I'm sorry, I don't recall what version of Dojo I used. > It was 9 months ago. It looked promising then. If I > had to start from scratch today, I would definitely > look into dojo. > > > --- Adam Jenkins wrote: > > > I've heard good things, but I've also heard that YUI > > "forces" (defaults) you > > into using Yahoo services? > > Yea, I heard about Dojo having incomplete > > documentation. Could I ask, what > > version were you using? They seem to be up to 0.9 > > and 1.0 beta. > > > > On 11/1/07, Chuck Martin wrote: > > > > > > About 9 months ago, I tried using dojo with my > > Django > > > site. Although dojo looked promising, I found it > > > frustrating to use. The documentation was > > incomplete > > > and sometimes contradictory. I had the most luck > > when > > > I used their unit tests as documentation. > > > > > > About the same time, I also explored Yahoo's User > > > Interface (YUI) library. I had much better luck > > with > > > it. It has better documentation and lots of > > examples. > > > So dropped Dojo and am using YUI exclusively. > > > > > > YUI also has an incredibly active Yahoo Users > > Group > > > and it appears that they have people on the > > payroll > > > who work on this code full time. > > > > > > One thing that real amazed me was I was using > > their > > > layout code and ran into troubles with Safari. So > > I > > > posted a note on the message board. Some one > > responded > > > quickly and we exchanged several messages. I turns > > out > > > he was one of the Yahoo developers. Since I could > > not > > > resolve the problem, he actually logged into my > > > webpage and worked on the problem for several > > hours. > > > Unfortunately he could not resolve it, but I > > applaud > > > the effort. > > > > > > I think putting YUI in the public domain is good > > for > > > Yahoo and good for the rest of us. They get a huge > > > group of testers for free and we get some pretty > > > robust code. > > > > > > Chuck > > > > > > > > > --- Chris McAvoy wrote: > > > > > > > I just recently caught up with Dojo...these > > neat-o > > > > "Dijits" seem like > > > > they're God's gift to Javascript, which makes me > > > > sort of weary. > > > > Especially as I can't find anyone actually using > > > > them, and the demo > > > > page on the main Dojo site appears broken. > > > > > > > > Is anyone using these things? I'm really hoping > > > > they're awesome, as I > > > > dislike layout and design, and love data. > > > > > > > > Chris > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > Chicago mailing list > > > > Chicago at python.org > > > > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago > > > > > > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > > > Do You Yahoo!? > > > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam > > protection around > > > http://mail.yahoo.com > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Chicago mailing list > > > Chicago at python.org > > > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > --------------------------------------- > > Adam Jenkins > > emperorcezar at gmail.com > > 312-399-5161 > > --------------------------------------- > > > _______________________________________________ > > Chicago mailing list > > Chicago at python.org > > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago > > > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com > _______________________________________________ > Chicago mailing list > Chicago at python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago > From jeffh at dundeemt.com Fri Nov 2 13:26:12 2007 From: jeffh at dundeemt.com (Jeff Hinrichs - DM&T) Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2007 07:26:12 -0500 Subject: [Chicago] Looking for Python Instructor for GIS Symposium in April 2008 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5aaed53f0711020526l4cf44da9rf0c00f08d15d5387@mail.gmail.com> This request came in to the Omaha Python users group list but so far no one has responded. Because of the nature of the request I am forwarding it on in the chance that serendipity might step in. -Jeff ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Eric.Foster at modot.mo.gov Date: Oct 30, 2007 10:51 AM Subject: [omaha] Looking for Python Instructor for GIS Symposium in April 2008 To: omaha at python.org I am involved with MAGIC http://www.magicgis.org/ an organization to encourage GIS development, sharing, cooperation, etc. and educate practitioners in GIS. We hold a symposium every two years in April (next is April 2008) and provide speakers and workshops in relevant GIS subjects. ESRI's ArcGIS software holds the market majority and has embraced Python language as a preferred scripting, customization language. One area we have trouble with for our symposium is getting instructors for Python workshops. The symposium is in Kansas City on April 20-24, 2008 and the Python course would be held for 4 hours on Sunday April 20th and would be a hands-on computer based course with a class of about 20-30 beginner programmers. We desire application to ArcGIS, but also just need basic Python skills instruction. The instructors and speakers as well as the planning committee are volunteers to keep the cost down to symposium attendees. Do you have anyone that might fit as an instructor for an Introduction to Python language course in the Midwest? We would like to get a commitment of an instructor with a one-to-two paragraph outline or summary to print in our preliminary program by this Friday (November 2, 2007) Sorry for the short notice, we thought we had someone lined up already, but do not. Please call or email me to discuss further. Eric Foster, Senior Transportation Planner MoDOT, 600 NE Colbern Rd. Lee's Summit, MO 64086 (816) 622-6330 _______________________________________________ Omaha Python Users Group mailing list Omaha at python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/omaha http://www.OmahaPython.org From sjzabel at gmail.com Fri Nov 2 16:36:42 2007 From: sjzabel at gmail.com (Stephen Z) Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2007 10:36:42 -0500 Subject: [Chicago] [OT] Dijit Widgets In-Reply-To: <5aaed53f0711011617o58c0b1abh8661e4c6e78722e7@mail.gmail.com> References: <58a5f2220711011437u5f51f1b5ua3fe9bc34783ebf9@mail.gmail.com> <41457.90163.qm@web50206.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <5aaed53f0711011617o58c0b1abh8661e4c6e78722e7@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: That is pretty much what we are using over here at Optaros; lots of prototype/scriptaculous for general things, yui for widgets and yui grids/font/reset and blueprints for css. ExtJS is also starting to be put into heavy rotation; while I have not personally used it, the developers that have speak pretty highly of it. The others that I would add to the list are Mootools and jQuery. I personally try to sneak Mootool in if the site does need a lot of scriptaculous like effects. I don't have a lot of experience with jQuery, but I know that it is what the Drupal community uses in most of their plugins and most developers that have used it say that it is pretty convenient. From personal experience jQuery is only library that allows a convenient way to rename its $() notation so that it can be used in conjunction with Prototype or Mootools. I have used most of these libraries in Django projects with much success :) While there is nothing builtin like RoR, template tags and an additional views file named ajax_views.py keep everything pretty manageable. Cheers, Stephen On Nov 1, 2007 6:17 PM, Jeff Hinrichs - DM&T wrote: > I'm +1 on YUI too. Until then I had been using prototypejs but YUI has > lots of people using it, which translates into results when you are > searching. When I get a minute to breathe I plan on trying out ExtJS. > > -Jeff > > > On 11/1/07, Chuck Martin wrote: > > I am not sure what you mean by "forces you to use > > Yahoo services". I can't speak for the whole package, > > but the parts I am using seem to be self contained > > javascript that can run independent of the yahoo > > website. > > > > Maybe the confusion comes from the 2 ways you can use > > the code. You can download it and serve it from your > > own server. Or you can have the yahoo server serve the > > code for you. The advantage of having yahoo serve it > > is you will always have the most recent version. Since > > they are so active, I think that is a big plus. > > > > Or the confusion may come from one of yahoo's css > > files. They have one that they encourage all users to > > use. What is does is explicitly set a bunch of styles. > > They say the reason they do this is to create a > > consistent starting point. Without that css, each > > browser sets defaults for all those styles. Using this > > style sheet is optional. I found that it helped me > > avoid a lot of problems and made my webpage behave > > more consistently across browsers. But even with this > > style sheet, I can set my styles to whatever I want. > > > > I'm sorry, I don't recall what version of Dojo I used. > > It was 9 months ago. It looked promising then. If I > > had to start from scratch today, I would definitely > > look into dojo. > > > > > > --- Adam Jenkins wrote: > > > > > I've heard good things, but I've also heard that YUI > > > "forces" (defaults) you > > > into using Yahoo services? > > > Yea, I heard about Dojo having incomplete > > > documentation. Could I ask, what > > > version were you using? They seem to be up to 0.9 > > > and 1.0 beta. > > > > > > On 11/1/07, Chuck Martin wrote: > > > > > > > > About 9 months ago, I tried using dojo with my > > > Django > > > > site. Although dojo looked promising, I found it > > > > frustrating to use. The documentation was > > > incomplete > > > > and sometimes contradictory. I had the most luck > > > when > > > > I used their unit tests as documentation. > > > > > > > > About the same time, I also explored Yahoo's User > > > > Interface (YUI) library. I had much better luck > > > with > > > > it. It has better documentation and lots of > > > examples. > > > > So dropped Dojo and am using YUI exclusively. > > > > > > > > YUI also has an incredibly active Yahoo Users > > > Group > > > > and it appears that they have people on the > > > payroll > > > > who work on this code full time. > > > > > > > > One thing that real amazed me was I was using > > > their > > > > layout code and ran into troubles with Safari. So > > > I > > > > posted a note on the message board. Some one > > > responded > > > > quickly and we exchanged several messages. I turns > > > out > > > > he was one of the Yahoo developers. Since I could > > > not > > > > resolve the problem, he actually logged into my > > > > webpage and worked on the problem for several > > > hours. > > > > Unfortunately he could not resolve it, but I > > > applaud > > > > the effort. > > > > > > > > I think putting YUI in the public domain is good > > > for > > > > Yahoo and good for the rest of us. They get a huge > > > > group of testers for free and we get some pretty > > > > robust code. > > > > > > > > Chuck > > > > > > > > > > > > --- Chris McAvoy wrote: > > > > > > > > > I just recently caught up with Dojo...these > > > neat-o > > > > > "Dijits" seem like > > > > > they're God's gift to Javascript, which makes me > > > > > sort of weary. > > > > > Especially as I can't find anyone actually using > > > > > them, and the demo > > > > > page on the main Dojo site appears broken. > > > > > > > > > > Is anyone using these things? I'm really hoping > > > > > they're awesome, as I > > > > > dislike layout and design, and love data. > > > > > > > > > > Chris > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > Chicago mailing list > > > > > Chicago at python.org > > > > > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > > > > Do You Yahoo!? > > > > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam > > > protection around > > > > http://mail.yahoo.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > Chicago mailing list > > > > Chicago at python.org > > > > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > --------------------------------------- > > > Adam Jenkins > > > emperorcezar at gmail.com > > > 312-399-5161 > > > --------------------------------------- > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Chicago mailing list > > > Chicago at python.org > > > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago > > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > > Do You Yahoo!? > > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > > http://mail.yahoo.com > > _______________________________________________ > > Chicago mailing list > > Chicago at python.org > > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago > > > _______________________________________________ > Chicago mailing list > Chicago at python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago > From rc.dillenburg at gmail.com Sat Nov 3 16:25:20 2007 From: rc.dillenburg at gmail.com (Russell Dillenburg) Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2007 10:25:20 -0500 Subject: [Chicago] [OT] Dijit Widgets In-Reply-To: References: <58a5f2220711011437u5f51f1b5ua3fe9bc34783ebf9@mail.gmail.com> <41457.90163.qm@web50206.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <5aaed53f0711011617o58c0b1abh8661e4c6e78722e7@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <408c01040711030825o593b079ha4f396ae6cbc51b0@mail.gmail.com> My work got into dojo using the tree widgets.. It is actually a nice javascript toolkit, and performance has certainly improved since 0.4. It's very simple to manage too. Everyone is encouraged to check it out. On 11/2/07, Stephen Z wrote: > > That is pretty much what we are using over here at Optaros; lots of > prototype/scriptaculous for general things, yui for widgets and yui > grids/font/reset and blueprints for css. > > ExtJS is also starting to be put into heavy rotation; while I have not > personally used it, the developers that have speak pretty highly of > it. > > The others that I would add to the list are Mootools and jQuery. I > personally try to sneak Mootool in if the site does need a lot of > scriptaculous like effects. I don't have a lot of experience with > jQuery, but I know that it is what the Drupal community uses in most > of their plugins and most developers that have used it say that it is > pretty convenient. From personal experience jQuery is only library > that allows a convenient way to rename its $() notation so that it can > be used in conjunction with Prototype or Mootools. > > I have used most of these libraries in Django projects with much > success :) While there is nothing builtin like RoR, template tags and > an additional views file named ajax_views.py keep everything pretty > manageable. > > > Cheers, > Stephen > > > On Nov 1, 2007 6:17 PM, Jeff Hinrichs - DM&T wrote: > > I'm +1 on YUI too. Until then I had been using prototypejs but YUI has > > lots of people using it, which translates into results when you are > > searching. When I get a minute to breathe I plan on trying out ExtJS. > > > > -Jeff > > > > > > On 11/1/07, Chuck Martin wrote: > > > I am not sure what you mean by "forces you to use > > > Yahoo services". I can't speak for the whole package, > > > but the parts I am using seem to be self contained > > > javascript that can run independent of the yahoo > > > website. > > > > > > Maybe the confusion comes from the 2 ways you can use > > > the code. You can download it and serve it from your > > > own server. Or you can have the yahoo server serve the > > > code for you. The advantage of having yahoo serve it > > > is you will always have the most recent version. Since > > > they are so active, I think that is a big plus. > > > > > > Or the confusion may come from one of yahoo's css > > > files. They have one that they encourage all users to > > > use. What is does is explicitly set a bunch of styles. > > > They say the reason they do this is to create a > > > consistent starting point. Without that css, each > > > browser sets defaults for all those styles. Using this > > > style sheet is optional. I found that it helped me > > > avoid a lot of problems and made my webpage behave > > > more consistently across browsers. But even with this > > > style sheet, I can set my styles to whatever I want. > > > > > > I'm sorry, I don't recall what version of Dojo I used. > > > It was 9 months ago. It looked promising then. If I > > > had to start from scratch today, I would definitely > > > look into dojo. > > > > > > > > > --- Adam Jenkins wrote: > > > > > > > I've heard good things, but I've also heard that YUI > > > > "forces" (defaults) you > > > > into using Yahoo services? > > > > Yea, I heard about Dojo having incomplete > > > > documentation. Could I ask, what > > > > version were you using? They seem to be up to 0.9 > > > > and 1.0 beta. > > > > > > > > On 11/1/07, Chuck Martin wrote: > > > > > > > > > > About 9 months ago, I tried using dojo with my > > > > Django > > > > > site. Although dojo looked promising, I found it > > > > > frustrating to use. The documentation was > > > > incomplete > > > > > and sometimes contradictory. I had the most luck > > > > when > > > > > I used their unit tests as documentation. > > > > > > > > > > About the same time, I also explored Yahoo's User > > > > > Interface (YUI) library. I had much better luck > > > > with > > > > > it. It has better documentation and lots of > > > > examples. > > > > > So dropped Dojo and am using YUI exclusively. > > > > > > > > > > YUI also has an incredibly active Yahoo Users > > > > Group > > > > > and it appears that they have people on the > > > > payroll > > > > > who work on this code full time. > > > > > > > > > > One thing that real amazed me was I was using > > > > their > > > > > layout code and ran into troubles with Safari. So > > > > I > > > > > posted a note on the message board. Some one > > > > responded > > > > > quickly and we exchanged several messages. I turns > > > > out > > > > > he was one of the Yahoo developers. Since I could > > > > not > > > > > resolve the problem, he actually logged into my > > > > > webpage and worked on the problem for several > > > > hours. > > > > > Unfortunately he could not resolve it, but I > > > > applaud > > > > > the effort. > > > > > > > > > > I think putting YUI in the public domain is good > > > > for > > > > > Yahoo and good for the rest of us. They get a huge > > > > > group of testers for free and we get some pretty > > > > > robust code. > > > > > > > > > > Chuck > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- Chris McAvoy wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > I just recently caught up with Dojo...these > > > > neat-o > > > > > > "Dijits" seem like > > > > > > they're God's gift to Javascript, which makes me > > > > > > sort of weary. > > > > > > Especially as I can't find anyone actually using > > > > > > them, and the demo > > > > > > page on the main Dojo site appears broken. > > > > > > > > > > > > Is anyone using these things? I'm really hoping > > > > > > they're awesome, as I > > > > > > dislike layout and design, and love data. > > > > > > > > > > > > Chris > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > > Chicago mailing list > > > > > > Chicago at python.org > > > > > > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > > > > > Do You Yahoo!? > > > > > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam > > > > protection around > > > > > http://mail.yahoo.com > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > Chicago mailing list > > > > > Chicago at python.org > > > > > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > --------------------------------------- > > > > Adam Jenkins > > > > emperorcezar at gmail.com > > > > 312-399-5161 > > > > --------------------------------------- > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > Chicago mailing list > > > > Chicago at python.org > > > > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago > > > > > > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > > > Do You Yahoo!? > > > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > > > http://mail.yahoo.com > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Chicago mailing list > > > Chicago at python.org > > > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Chicago mailing list > > Chicago at python.org > > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago > > > _______________________________________________ > Chicago mailing list > Chicago at python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mail.python.org/pipermail/chicago/attachments/20071103/c43ae152/attachment.htm From timheit at netvigator.com Sun Nov 4 09:42:55 2007 From: timheit at netvigator.com (Timmy) Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2007 16:42:55 +0800 Subject: [Chicago] How to know more about the raised exception? Message-ID: <20071104084256.01128E07D4@obav06.netvigator.com> Hi, I has a question about exception in python. I know that an exception can be re-raised. Is there any simple way provided by python itself that I can know the current exception is just firstly occurred or it is re-raised by previous exception? I need to know whether it is firstly occurred or not because I want to just display an error message if it's firstly occur and skip display error message if the exception is just re-raised by previous exception. Thanks! From catherine.devlin at gmail.com Sun Nov 4 04:48:43 2007 From: catherine.devlin at gmail.com (Catherine Devlin) Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2007 23:48:43 -0400 Subject: [Chicago] CodeMash In-Reply-To: <6523e39a0711032035q15368abavd8d87fea82c53cfd@mail.gmail.com> References: <6523e39a0711032035q15368abavd8d87fea82c53cfd@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6523e39a0711032048p183b8481k260ee638e1112662@mail.gmail.com> Hi, Pythonistas! OK, with PyCon coming to you, it might be a little hard to get excited over a conference in Ohio. But we've got a good multi-language regional conference coming to Sandusky, OH, on Jan. 9-11: http://codemash.org/ Python is among the featured languages. I'm one of the speakers, with a repeat of my "Intro to Python" talk from Ohio LinuxFest. There'll also be talks on Django, Bruce Eckel on why he loves Python... and that's just from the first rounds of accepted talks; more talks are still being selected. http://codemash.org/SessionList.aspx I'm attaching a flyer. -- - Catherine http://catherinedevlin.blogspot.com/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: CodeMash2008Flyer.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 289500 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://mail.python.org/pipermail/chicago/attachments/20071103/42fee0cf/attachment-0001.pdf From cstejerean at gmail.com Sun Nov 4 19:09:06 2007 From: cstejerean at gmail.com (Cosmin Stejerean) Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2007 13:09:06 -0500 Subject: [Chicago] How to know more about the raised exception? In-Reply-To: <20071104084256.01128E07D4@obav06.netvigator.com> References: <20071104084256.01128E07D4@obav06.netvigator.com> Message-ID: <276266d0711041009j6940ce9fjf0faf24ff7ec1ee8@mail.gmail.com> You can create a new exception class in which you can wrap other exceptions and raise that instead. So your error handling code can easily know if it's an "original" exception or an exception you raised. - Cosmin On 11/4/07, Timmy wrote: > > Hi, > I has a question about exception in python. > I know that an exception can be re-raised. > Is there any simple way provided by python itself that I can know the > current exception is > just firstly occurred or it is re-raised by previous exception? > I need to know whether it is firstly occurred or not > because I want to just display an error message if it's > firstly occur and skip display error message if the exception is just > re-raised by previous exception. > > Thanks! > > _______________________________________________ > Chicago mailing list > Chicago at python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago > -- Cosmin Stejerean http://blog.offbytwo.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mail.python.org/pipermail/chicago/attachments/20071104/11c10e46/attachment.htm From kumar.mcmillan at gmail.com Sun Nov 4 20:37:41 2007 From: kumar.mcmillan at gmail.com (Kumar McMillan) Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2007 13:37:41 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] [OT] Dijit Widgets In-Reply-To: <5aaed53f0711011617o58c0b1abh8661e4c6e78722e7@mail.gmail.com> References: <58a5f2220711011437u5f51f1b5ua3fe9bc34783ebf9@mail.gmail.com> <41457.90163.qm@web50206.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <5aaed53f0711011617o58c0b1abh8661e4c6e78722e7@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On 11/1/07, Jeff Hinrichs - DM&T wrote: > ...When I get a minute to breathe I plan on trying out ExtJS. I'm on a project now for an intranet / CMS type of site and we decided to go with ExtJS (http://extjs.com/). It's very easy to get started with and the documentation is very thorough. I believe the version we're using is built on YUI but judging from the source files it seems that this code has been merged into ExtJS itself. All in all I'd recommend this to anyone who wants to provide a more "desktop like" interface for their users. I wouldn't recommend using it for a public facing site unless you have a Q.A. dept strictly dedicated to browser testing. However, it certainly promises to be cross-browser compliant. We have the luxury of forcing everyone to use Firefox. The licensing is interesting. It's actually LGPL 3.0, which is why we can use it for an intranet application, but they also offer a commercial license for purchase in case you want to sell the application or if you need to satisfy some existing commercial license requirement (or just want to support its development). They kind of push the latter on you which might turn some people off using it, until you read the fine print that it is LGPL by default :) k From maney at two14.net Sun Nov 4 20:44:18 2007 From: maney at two14.net (Martin Maney) Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2007 13:44:18 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] How to know more about the raised exception? In-Reply-To: <276266d0711041009j6940ce9fjf0faf24ff7ec1ee8@mail.gmail.com> References: <20071104084256.01128E07D4@obav06.netvigator.com> <276266d0711041009j6940ce9fjf0faf24ff7ec1ee8@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20071104194418.GA9273@furrr.two14.net> On Sun, Nov 04, 2007 at 01:09:06PM -0500, Cosmin Stejerean wrote: > You can create a new exception class in which you can wrap other exceptions > and raise that instead. So your error handling code can easily know if it's > an "original" exception or an exception you raised. > On 11/4/07, Timmy wrote: > > I know that an exception can be re-raised. > > Is there any simple way provided by python itself that I can know the > > current exception is > > just firstly occurred or it is re-raised by previous exception? The problem with a wrapper class is that (at least without getting a good deal more involved) it will break any handlers that catch a subset of exceptions. If you can be reasonably sure the exception objects aren't strings (which are sort of obsolete, though the language probably still accepts them until 3.0 - anyway, there are non-archaic verisons of Python that permit them) the obvious way is to simple add an attribute to the exception the first time it's seen, and test for that to decide how to handle it. If you do need to worry about exceptions that are Just Strings you'll need to do a little more work, but it's probably a good idea to wrap both the marking and the testing in a little function anyhow, just to be certain it gets done consistently. Probably just give up and wrap strings in your own class - they're not commonly used with type-based catchers for the obvious reasons that all strings are the same type. Luck! PS: I hope this is a debugging expedient. It feels like the sort of thing that should never go into "real" code, but might be real useful when trying to sort out unexpected behavior. -- Man's mind, once stretched by a new idea, never regains its original dimensions. -- Oliver Wendell Holmes From zibble at gmail.com Mon Nov 5 18:02:54 2007 From: zibble at gmail.com (Scott Zibble) Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2007 11:02:54 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] next meeting talk- topic request In-Reply-To: <804e5c70710251210i290a66a6re224b99aca0d4367@mail.gmail.com> References: <804e5c70710251210i290a66a6re224b99aca0d4367@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: It looks like Thursday's meeting is still a little light on presentation topics. Does anyone want to step up and give a talk on... well, anything? Also, I realize this is very late, but does anyone have a venue they could arrange on such short notice? While I should be able to offer up 180 N. La Salle in most instances, I'm going to be in New York for most of this week. And arranging security details while offsite will be difficult. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mail.python.org/pipermail/chicago/attachments/20071105/bc32c126/attachment.htm From hsu.feihong at yahoo.com Tue Nov 6 18:51:38 2007 From: hsu.feihong at yahoo.com (Feihong Hsu) Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2007 09:51:38 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Chicago] [OT] Dijit Widgets In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <594417.35618.qm@web34813.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Here's my comparison of ExtJS and Dojo, from my (limited) exposure to them. I actually took a look at Dojo a few years ago, but unfortunately back then my JavaScript was really pathetic and looking at the unit tests didn't get me anywhere. Dojo doesn't have great documentation; the Dojo Book for 0.9 just covers the basics. The two demos on the Dojo site aren't enough, but if you look inside the dijit/tests directory you'll find a lot of good examples in there. One cool thing about Dojo is that you can use Amazon's edge-cached version, so you don't even have to serve the JS files from your own server. You can embed widgets directly into your page, without writing JavaScript, by using the dojoType attribute in your HTML tags. Dojo has a ton of stuff in it besides just widgets, you can use it for local storage, back button support, package management, unit testing, etc. One issue with Dojo is that there are some inconsistencies, probably because a lot of different people work on it. For example the onChange handler in dijit.ComboBox doesn't receive an Event object, it receives the value of the ComboBox instead (which is not how other handlers work). Also, and this is a matter of personal taste, I don't like the themes that are included with Dojo. For example in Firefox the Dojo tree widget's labels don't line up to the collapsers (the plus and minus buttons) like you would expect them to. Another drawback is that Dojo's stable release doesn't include a grid control, however there is one in 1.0 RC1 (don't know when it will become stable enough to be served by Amazon though). ExtJS has really good documentation, and a solid set of examples that you can learn from. The actual JS files aren't served by any corporation, you'll have to put them on your own site. You can't embed your widgets directly in your page like you can with Dojo. This might make complex layouts a bit more painful to implement. ExtJS's API is really consistent and the widgets look pretty good in my opinion. The included themes hew closely to the look of Windows, and most widgets look like how you'd expect Windows widgets to look. All widgets that you would reasonably expect to use are there, including grid, tree, and form. In particular the Debug Console in ExtJS is really nice, it even includes a built-in DOM inspector. Although Dojo also includes support for drag 'n' drop, the examples are paltry compared to the ones for ExtJS. Overall, I'm more impressed by Dojo as a whole. The number of packages has gotten fairly big, it's starting to resemble the Java standard library. Its widget system is flawed but improving with each release. In constrast, ExtJS doesn't try to tackle everything, but focuses on providing a very complete and easy-to-use widget library. ExtJS includes adapters that can supplement the capabilities of its base libraries. Adapters include YUI, jQuery, and Prototype. Currently I'm doing a project where I need to choose either ExtJS or Dojo for the widgets. At the moment, I'm leaning towards ExtJS, because I think its widgets are easier to work with. But the decision hasn't been finalized so I may switch to Dojo as the project progresses. - Feihong Kumar McMillan wrote: On 11/1/07, Jeff Hinrichs - DM&T wrote: > ...When I get a minute to breathe I plan on trying out ExtJS. I'm on a project now for an intranet / CMS type of site and we decided to go with ExtJS (http://extjs.com/). It's very easy to get started with and the documentation is very thorough. I believe the version we're using is built on YUI but judging from the source files it seems that this code has been merged into ExtJS itself. All in all I'd recommend this to anyone who wants to provide a more "desktop like" interface for their users. I wouldn't recommend using it for a public facing site unless you have a Q.A. dept strictly dedicated to browser testing. However, it certainly promises to be cross-browser compliant. We have the luxury of forcing everyone to use Firefox. The licensing is interesting. It's actually LGPL 3.0, which is why we can use it for an intranet application, but they also offer a commercial license for purchase in case you want to sell the application or if you need to satisfy some existing commercial license requirement (or just want to support its development). They kind of push the latter on you which might turn some people off using it, until you read the fine print that it is LGPL by default :) k _______________________________________________ Chicago mailing list Chicago at python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mail.python.org/pipermail/chicago/attachments/20071106/d3af231e/attachment.htm From kumar.mcmillan at gmail.com Tue Nov 6 18:44:35 2007 From: kumar.mcmillan at gmail.com (Kumar McMillan) Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2007 11:44:35 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] next meeting talk- topic request In-Reply-To: References: <804e5c70710251210i290a66a6re224b99aca0d4367@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On 11/5/07, Scott Zibble wrote: > It looks like Thursday's meeting is still a little light on presentation > topics. > > Does anyone want to step up and give a talk on... well, anything? > > Also, I realize this is very late, but does anyone have a venue they could > arrange on such short notice? While I should be able to offer up 180 N. La > Salle in most instances, I'm going to be in New York for most of this week. > And arranging security details while offsite will be difficult. I'd say this week is slipping by at an alarming rate (in more ways than one for me!) ... if folks don't mind postponing the meeting until next week, Thursday Nov 15, I could try and whip up a talk on Open Social... http://code.google.com/apis/opensocial/ Since it is the "latest rage" I figure someone might be interested in it. It may turn into an audience participation however since I am still learning what it is myself. But I do have a sandbox now on Orkut to test apps in. What does this have to do with Python?? Good question! I'm sure I'll think of an answer by next Thurs ;) If Harper is listening, what is the availability for meeting at Skinny Corp ? -Kumar From ianb at colorstudy.com Tue Nov 6 19:32:50 2007 From: ianb at colorstudy.com (Ian Bicking) Date: Tue, 06 Nov 2007 12:32:50 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] next meeting talk- topic request In-Reply-To: References: <804e5c70710251210i290a66a6re224b99aca0d4367@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4730B352.1050204@colorstudy.com> Kumar McMillan wrote: > On 11/5/07, Scott Zibble wrote: >> It looks like Thursday's meeting is still a little light on presentation >> topics. >> >> Does anyone want to step up and give a talk on... well, anything? >> >> Also, I realize this is very late, but does anyone have a venue they could >> arrange on such short notice? While I should be able to offer up 180 N. La >> Salle in most instances, I'm going to be in New York for most of this week. >> And arranging security details while offsite will be difficult. > > I'd say this week is slipping by at an alarming rate (in more ways > than one for me!) > > ... if folks don't mind postponing the meeting until next week, > Thursday Nov 15, I could try and whip up a talk on Open Social... > http://code.google.com/apis/opensocial/ I wouldn't mind postponing *if we can get a venue*. We can yank together whatever for presentations, but venues are more limited. Especially without mtobis and his portable projector :( That made things a lot easier. -- Ian Bicking : ianb at colorstudy.com : http://blog.ianbicking.org From carl at personnelware.com Tue Nov 6 20:06:26 2007 From: carl at personnelware.com (Carl Karsten) Date: Tue, 06 Nov 2007 13:06:26 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] next meeting talk- topic request In-Reply-To: <4730B352.1050204@colorstudy.com> References: <804e5c70710251210i290a66a6re224b99aca0d4367@mail.gmail.com> <4730B352.1050204@colorstudy.com> Message-ID: <4730BB32.90008@personnelware.com> Should I bother trying to get a place for this Thursday? Carl K From hsu.feihong at yahoo.com Tue Nov 6 21:24:12 2007 From: hsu.feihong at yahoo.com (Feihong Hsu) Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2007 12:24:12 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Chicago] next meeting talk- topic request In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <598354.34485.qm@web34801.mail.mud.yahoo.com> I talked to my boss about hosting chipy meetings. She was very amenable to the idea, but told me that to convince the higher-ups I would have to justify it through the viewpoint of "business reasons". Has anyone else had to go through this kind of process to convince their company to host a user's group meeting? FYI, we are about 5 blocks from the Google office, on the corner of Franklin and Wacker Dr. - Feihong Scott Zibble wrote: It looks like Thursday's meeting is still a little light on presentation topics. Does anyone want to step up and give a talk on... well, anything? Also, I realize this is very late, but does anyone have a venue they could arrange on such short notice? While I should be able to offer up 180 N. La Salle in most instances, I'm going to be in New York for most of this week. And arranging security details while offsite will be difficult. _______________________________________________ Chicago mailing list Chicago at python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mail.python.org/pipermail/chicago/attachments/20071106/bdaad791/attachment.htm From tcp at mac.com Tue Nov 6 21:29:44 2007 From: tcp at mac.com (Ted Pollari) Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2007 12:29:44 -0800 Subject: [Chicago] next meeting talk- topic request In-Reply-To: <598354.34485.qm@web34801.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <598354.34485.qm@web34801.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Nov 6, 2007, at 12:24 PM, Feihong Hsu wrote: > I talked to my boss about hosting chipy meetings. She was very > amenable to the idea, but told me that to convince the higher-ups I > would have to justify it through the viewpoint of "business > reasons". Has anyone else had to go through this kind of process > to convince their company to host a user's group meeting? Do you use Python @ work? Would they like to be viewed in a favorable light amongst Python users in Chicago (and hence, potential hires?) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mail.python.org/pipermail/chicago/attachments/20071106/d53d7d37/attachment-0001.htm From hsu.feihong at yahoo.com Tue Nov 6 22:30:15 2007 From: hsu.feihong at yahoo.com (Feihong Hsu) Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2007 13:30:15 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Chicago] next meeting talk- topic request In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <719810.25176.qm@web34813.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Yes, we do use it at work but when I say "we" I mostly mean "me". This would be easier if there were more developers here using Python. So I've got to come up with some persuasive arguments for doing it, while also acknowledging that we don't really have a lot of Python developers. It's kind of this chicken and egg problem I have here. Maybe it really comes down to convincing the business types that Python is something we're going to be using a lot of down the road. Which I don't think is an easy thing to do. - Feihong Ted Pollari wrote: On Nov 6, 2007, at 12:24 PM, Feihong Hsu wrote: I talked to my boss about hosting chipy meetings. She was very amenable to the idea, but told me that to convince the higher-ups I would have to justify it through the viewpoint of "business reasons". Has anyone else had to go through this kind of process to convince their company to host a user's group meeting? Do you use Python @ work? Would they like to be viewed in a favorable light amongst Python users in Chicago (and hence, potential hires?) _______________________________________________ Chicago mailing list Chicago at python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mail.python.org/pipermail/chicago/attachments/20071106/527b250c/attachment.htm From carl at personnelware.com Tue Nov 6 22:45:07 2007 From: carl at personnelware.com (Carl Karsten) Date: Tue, 06 Nov 2007 15:45:07 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] next meeting talk- topic request In-Reply-To: References: <598354.34485.qm@web34801.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4730E063.5060202@personnelware.com> Ted Pollari wrote: > > On Nov 6, 2007, at 12:24 PM, Feihong Hsu wrote: > >> I talked to my boss about hosting chipy meetings. She was very >> amenable to the idea, but told me that to convince the higher-ups I >> would have to justify it through the viewpoint of "business reasons". >> Has anyone else had to go through this kind of process to convince >> their company to host a user's group meeting? > > > Do you use Python @ work? Would they like to be viewed in a favorable > light amongst Python users in Chicago (and hence, potential hires?) Free technical training for all the employees. Carl K From chris.mcavoy at gmail.com Tue Nov 6 23:13:16 2007 From: chris.mcavoy at gmail.com (Chris McAvoy) Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2007 16:13:16 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] next meeting talk- topic request In-Reply-To: <719810.25176.qm@web34813.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <719810.25176.qm@web34813.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <3096c19d0711061413i5fe6ba3dn7c755c2eb328e20d@mail.gmail.com> On 11/6/07, Feihong Hsu wrote: > Yes, we do use it at work but when I say "we" I mostly mean "me". This would > be easier if there were more developers here using Python. So I've got to > come up with some persuasive arguments for doing it, while also > acknowledging that we don't really have a lot of Python developers. The majority of Python developers are also Java or C++ developers. That's what you should tell your people. The business reason is, Google hosted the last meeting. If they host, they'd be like Google. Chris From zibble at gmail.com Tue Nov 6 23:50:18 2007 From: zibble at gmail.com (Scott Zibble) Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2007 16:50:18 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] next meeting talk- topic request In-Reply-To: <4730B352.1050204@colorstudy.com> References: <804e5c70710251210i290a66a6re224b99aca0d4367@mail.gmail.com> <4730B352.1050204@colorstudy.com> Message-ID: I don't want to mess up the schedule, but I can definitely have 180 N. LaSalle available on 11/15. If, in fact, more people could have talks ready by then instead of this Thursday... On Nov 6, 2007 12:32 PM, Ian Bicking wrote: > Kumar McMillan wrote: > > On 11/5/07, Scott Zibble wrote: > >> It looks like Thursday's meeting is still a little light on > presentation > >> topics. > >> > >> Does anyone want to step up and give a talk on... well, anything? > >> > >> Also, I realize this is very late, but does anyone have a venue they > could > >> arrange on such short notice? While I should be able to offer up 180 > N. La > >> Salle in most instances, I'm going to be in New York for most of this > week. > >> And arranging security details while offsite will be difficult. > > > > I'd say this week is slipping by at an alarming rate (in more ways > > than one for me!) > > > > ... if folks don't mind postponing the meeting until next week, > > Thursday Nov 15, I could try and whip up a talk on Open Social... > > http://code.google.com/apis/opensocial/ > > I wouldn't mind postponing *if we can get a venue*. We can yank > together whatever for presentations, but venues are more limited. > Especially without mtobis and his portable projector :( That made > things a lot easier. > > -- > Ian Bicking : ianb at colorstudy.com : http://blog.ianbicking.org > _______________________________________________ > Chicago mailing list > Chicago at python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mail.python.org/pipermail/chicago/attachments/20071106/9dc46898/attachment.htm From ianb at colorstudy.com Wed Nov 7 00:45:27 2007 From: ianb at colorstudy.com (Ian Bicking) Date: Tue, 06 Nov 2007 17:45:27 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] next meeting talk- topic request In-Reply-To: <598354.34485.qm@web34801.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <598354.34485.qm@web34801.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4730FC97.5090904@colorstudy.com> Feihong Hsu wrote: > I talked to my boss about hosting chipy meetings. She was very amenable > to the idea, but told me that to convince the higher-ups I would have to > justify it through the viewpoint of "business reasons". Has anyone else > had to go through this kind of process to convince their company to host > a user's group meeting? Business reasons: increase the visibility of your company to developers in the Chicago area. This makes hiring a lot easier, and makes your company more attractive. To a degree it makes people in the community more amenable to answering questions and generally being helpful towards employees at your company. And of course, it is a sign that the company supports its employees' professional development and interest in the craft of programming. -- Ian Bicking : ianb at colorstudy.com : http://blog.ianbicking.org From hamcferron at yahoo.com Wed Nov 7 15:04:14 2007 From: hamcferron at yahoo.com (Alex McFerron) Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2007 06:04:14 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Chicago] next meeting talk- topic request In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <373480.49056.qm@web81111.mail.mud.yahoo.com> you could say that this attracts talented and dedicated programmers and that these programmers will know about this company and it will create buzz about the company with talent. Ted Pollari wrote: On Nov 6, 2007, at 12:24 PM, Feihong Hsu wrote: I talked to my boss about hosting chipy meetings. She was very amenable to the idea, but told me that to convince the higher-ups I would have to justify it through the viewpoint of "business reasons". Has anyone else had to go through this kind of process to convince their company to host a user's group meeting? Do you use Python @ work? Would they like to be viewed in a favorable light amongst Python users in Chicago (and hence, potential hires?) _______________________________________________ Chicago mailing list Chicago at python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mail.python.org/pipermail/chicago/attachments/20071107/27b09d87/attachment.htm From hamcferron at yahoo.com Wed Nov 7 15:07:38 2007 From: hamcferron at yahoo.com (Alex McFerron) Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2007 06:07:38 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Chicago] next meeting talk- topic request In-Reply-To: <719810.25176.qm@web34813.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <432079.86664.qm@web81114.mail.mud.yahoo.com> I don't think it matters so much that it is a python group, maybe say it is a programming group. We all know different languages and have skills in more than just python. Under these circumstances, I would pitch it this way. Good luck. Thanks for trying. Feihong Hsu wrote: Yes, we do use it at work but when I say "we" I mostly mean "me". This would be easier if there were more developers here using Python. So I've got to come up with some persuasive arguments for doing it, while also acknowledging that we don't really have a lot of Python developers. It's kind of this chicken and egg problem I have here. Maybe it really comes down to convincing the business types that Python is something we're going to be using a lot of down the road. Which I don't think is an easy thing to do. - Feihong Ted Pollari wrote: On Nov 6, 2007, at 12:24 PM, Feihong Hsu wrote: I talked to my boss about hosting chipy meetings. She was very amenable to the idea, but told me that to convince the higher-ups I would have to justify it through the viewpoint of "business reasons". Has anyone else had to go through this kind of process to convince their company to host a user's group meeting? Do you use Python @ work? Would they like to be viewed in a favorable light amongst Python users in Chicago (and hence, potential hires?) _______________________________________________ Chicago mailing list Chicago at python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com _______________________________________________ Chicago mailing list Chicago at python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mail.python.org/pipermail/chicago/attachments/20071107/d5894b19/attachment.htm From kevin.l.stern at gmail.com Wed Nov 7 15:29:24 2007 From: kevin.l.stern at gmail.com (Kevin L. Stern) Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2007 08:29:24 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] next meeting talk- topic request In-Reply-To: <432079.86664.qm@web81114.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <719810.25176.qm@web34813.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <432079.86664.qm@web81114.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1704b7a20711070629r2e336e73u5e170848f6a923af@mail.gmail.com> Folks, So it seems the meeting is tomorrow at 7:00 P.M. Where will it be held? The website is still not updated. Thanks, Kevin From jason at hostedlabs.com Wed Nov 7 21:12:36 2007 From: jason at hostedlabs.com (Jason Rexilius) Date: Wed, 07 Nov 2007 14:12:36 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] BARcamp Update In-Reply-To: References: <3096c19d0709261311h72d30e26q8031eb7d8777a70f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <47321C34.1090001@hostedlabs.com> Hi Everyone! So its been a while since BARcamp Chicago 2007 and wanted to update everyone on a bunch of stuff.. OK, so first, Keith Schacht of ChicagoBeta/JobCoin/Facebook App fame had set up a free public job board for ChicagoBeta and BARcamp Chicago communities. There have been a few postings there (including a few from my company ;-) ) and wanted to let everyone know that its free to all and available. Check it out, post your jobs, etc.: http://barcampbeta.jobcoin.com/ Next up, we have some very cool events coming up this month. These are great places to meet other start-ups, smart people and, do as I do, get drunk off of free booze.. ;-) Thu Nov 8th 8:00am - Early Stage Marketplace: http://www.chicagolandchamber.org/sub/event_calendar_detail.asp?EVE_ID=930 Thu Nov 8th 5pm - Songza Launch Party (Aza and Humanized gang presented at BARcamp): http://www.songza.com/ Tue Nov 13th 6:15pm - MIT-EF Breakthrough Computer Interfaces (Aza again.. man he gets around ;-) ): http://www.mitefchicago.org/dojo/18/v.jsp?p=/home Thu Nov 15th 6:30pm - The great TECHcocktail 6! (bet you Aza will be there): http://www.techcocktail.com/blog/ Also, thanks to Henry Lee of Transwestern, we may have a very good venue for BARcamp next year. Connect with me or the BARcamp organizer list at LUNI to get involved! Lastly, I wanted to get feedback from all of you on something a lot of people asked for in the past. Should we have 2 BARcamps a year, spring and fall, rather than 1 in the summer? Email me back with a vote or thoughts. How many BARcamps per year? 1 or 2? Looking forward to seeing you all soon and hope this years been great for everyone! -jason From jason at hostedlabs.com Wed Nov 7 21:07:21 2007 From: jason at hostedlabs.com (Jason Rexilius) Date: Wed, 07 Nov 2007 14:07:21 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] BARcamp Updates Message-ID: <47321AF9.2050800@hostedlabs.com> Hi Everyone! So its been a while since BARcamp Chicago 2007 and wanted to update everyone on a bunch of stuff.. OK, so first, Keith Schacht of ChicagoBeta/JobCoin/Facebook App fame had set up a free public job board for ChicagoBeta and BARcamp Chicago communities. There have been a few postings there (including a few from my company ;-) ) and wanted to let everyone know that its free to all and available. Check it out, post your jobs, etc.: http://barcampbeta.jobcoin.com/ Next up, we have some very cool events coming up this month. These are great places to meet other start-ups, smart people and, do as I do, get drunk off of free booze.. ;-) Thu Nov 8th 8:00am - Early Stage Marketplace: http://www.chicagolandchamber.org/sub/event_calendar_detail.asp?EVE_ID=930 Thu Nov 8th 5pm - Songza Launch Party (Aza and Humanized gang presented at BARcamp): http://www.songza.com/ Tue Nov 13th 6:15pm - MIT-EF Breakthrough Computer Interfaces (Aza again.. man he gets around ;-) ): http://www.mitefchicago.org/dojo/18/v.jsp?p=/home Thu Nov 15th 6:30pm - The great TECHcocktail 6! (bet you Aza will be there): http://www.techcocktail.com/blog/ Also, thanks to Henry Lee of Transwestern, we may have a very good venue for BARcamp next year. Connect with me or the BARcamp organizer list at LUNI to get involved! Lastly, I wanted to get feedback from all of you on something a lot of people asked for in the past. Should we have 2 BARcamps a year, spring and fall, rather than 1 in the summer? Email me back with a vote or thoughts. How many BARcamps per year? 1 or 2? Looking forward to seeing you all soon and hope this years been great for everyone! -jason From nixternal at kubuntu.org Wed Nov 7 22:48:18 2007 From: nixternal at kubuntu.org (Richard A. Johnson) Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2007 15:48:18 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] BARcamp Updates In-Reply-To: <47321AF9.2050800@hostedlabs.com> References: <47321AF9.2050800@hostedlabs.com> Message-ID: <200711071548.22103.nixternal@kubuntu.org> On Wednesday 07 November 2007, Jason Rexilius wrote: [...] | Lastly, I wanted to get feedback from all of you on something a lot | of people asked for in the past. Should we have 2 BARcamps a year, | spring and fall, rather than 1 in the summer? | | Email me back with a vote or thoughts. How many BARcamps per year? 1 or 2? 2 -- Richard A. Johnson nixternal at kubuntu.org GPG Key: 0x2E2C0124 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... 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Url : http://mail.python.org/pipermail/chicago/attachments/20071107/eff477b2/attachment.pgp From harper.sean at gmail.com Wed Nov 7 21:46:35 2007 From: harper.sean at gmail.com (Sean Harper) Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2007 14:46:35 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] [PlanBARcamp] BARcamp Updates In-Reply-To: <47321AF9.2050800@hostedlabs.com> References: <47321AF9.2050800@hostedlabs.com> Message-ID: <11ad307a0711071246i266dc98eq6dcae72223a185af@mail.gmail.com> Another opensource / tech community event that may be of interest to many of you coming up on 12/6 - http://ignite-chicago.org/ On Nov 7, 2007 2:07 PM, Jason Rexilius wrote: > Hi Everyone! > > So its been a while since BARcamp Chicago 2007 and wanted to update > everyone on a bunch of stuff.. > > OK, so first, Keith Schacht of ChicagoBeta/JobCoin/Facebook App fame > had set up a free public job board for ChicagoBeta and BARcamp Chicago > communities. There have been a few postings there (including a few from > my company ;-) ) and wanted to let everyone know that its free to all > and available. Check it out, post your jobs, etc.: > > http://barcampbeta.jobcoin.com/ > > > Next up, we have some very cool events coming up this month. These > are great places to meet other start-ups, smart people and, do as I do, > get drunk off of free booze.. ;-) > > Thu Nov 8th 8:00am - Early Stage Marketplace: > http://www.chicagolandchamber.org/sub/event_calendar_detail.asp?EVE_ID=930 > > Thu Nov 8th 5pm - Songza Launch Party (Aza and Humanized gang presented > at BARcamp): > http://www.songza.com/ > > Tue Nov 13th 6:15pm - MIT-EF Breakthrough Computer Interfaces (Aza > again.. man he gets around ;-) ): > http://www.mitefchicago.org/dojo/18/v.jsp?p=/home > > Thu Nov 15th 6:30pm - The great TECHcocktail 6! (bet you Aza will be there): > http://www.techcocktail.com/blog/ > > > Also, thanks to Henry Lee of Transwestern, we may have a very good > venue for BARcamp next year. Connect with me or the BARcamp organizer > list at LUNI to get involved! > > > Lastly, I wanted to get feedback from all of you on something a lot > of people asked for in the past. Should we have 2 BARcamps a year, > spring and fall, rather than 1 in the summer? > > Email me back with a vote or thoughts. How many BARcamps per year? 1 or 2? > > Looking forward to seeing you all soon and hope this years been great > for everyone! > > -jason > _______________________________________________ > PlanBARcamp mailing list > PlanBARcamp at luni.org > http://luni.org/mailman/listinfo/planbarcamp > From kumar.mcmillan at gmail.com Thu Nov 8 22:16:50 2007 From: kumar.mcmillan at gmail.com (Kumar McMillan) Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2007 15:16:50 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] next meeting talk- topic request In-Reply-To: <1704b7a20711070629r2e336e73u5e170848f6a923af@mail.gmail.com> References: <719810.25176.qm@web34813.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <432079.86664.qm@web81114.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <1704b7a20711070629r2e336e73u5e170848f6a923af@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: I had proposed earlier in the week that we postpone the meeting until next week, Thurs Nov 15 since there weren't any talks scheduled ... but we still don't seem to have a venue. However, I *believe* Mr. Zibble said he can provide a venue for next Thurs? Maybe someone can confirm that and update the wiki :) On Nov 7, 2007 8:29 AM, Kevin L. Stern wrote: > Folks, > > So it seems the meeting is tomorrow at 7:00 P.M. Where will it be > held? The website is still not updated. > > Thanks, > > Kevin > > _______________________________________________ > Chicago mailing list > Chicago at python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago > From cstejerean at gmail.com Thu Nov 8 22:54:42 2007 From: cstejerean at gmail.com (Cosmin Stejerean) Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2007 15:54:42 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] next meeting talk- topic request In-Reply-To: References: <719810.25176.qm@web34813.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <432079.86664.qm@web81114.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <1704b7a20711070629r2e336e73u5e170848f6a923af@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <276266d0711081354i4af299dfx1835525d586910f8@mail.gmail.com> I think this might be the second time in a row we missed the monthly meeting for various reasons. I remember some talks a while ago about getting a benevolent dictator for 6 months that would take care of venues, etc. What ever happened to that? In case nobody stepped up I can volunteer for the job. - Cosmin On Nov 8, 2007 3:16 PM, Kumar McMillan wrote: > I had proposed earlier in the week that we postpone the meeting until > next week, Thurs Nov 15 since there weren't any talks scheduled ... > but we still don't seem to have a venue. However, I *believe* Mr. > Zibble said he can provide a venue for next Thurs? Maybe someone can > confirm that and update the wiki :) > > On Nov 7, 2007 8:29 AM, Kevin L. Stern wrote: > > Folks, > > > > So it seems the meeting is tomorrow at 7:00 P.M. Where will it be > > held? The website is still not updated. > > > > Thanks, > > > > Kevin > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Chicago mailing list > > Chicago at python.org > > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago > > > _______________________________________________ > Chicago mailing list > Chicago at python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago > -- Cosmin Stejerean http://blog.offbytwo.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mail.python.org/pipermail/chicago/attachments/20071108/25c0aac6/attachment.htm From chris.mcavoy at gmail.com Thu Nov 8 23:46:32 2007 From: chris.mcavoy at gmail.com (Chris McAvoy) Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2007 16:46:32 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] next meeting talk- topic request In-Reply-To: <276266d0711081354i4af299dfx1835525d586910f8@mail.gmail.com> References: <719810.25176.qm@web34813.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <432079.86664.qm@web81114.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <1704b7a20711070629r2e336e73u5e170848f6a923af@mail.gmail.com> <276266d0711081354i4af299dfx1835525d586910f8@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1CE8BDB9-EA9C-4ACA-A4C8-8DCBE7C4D01E@gmail.com> Hi All, The meeting is postponed until next Thursday, I'll update the wiki. The current organizer (BDFSM) is in NYC today, and away from email. The meeting will be hosted at his place of work (Performics 180 N. Lasalle) next Thursday. Details to follow. We have on talker lined up (Kumar!), but need more. I'm thinking it would be a good time for some lightning talks. So polish off you best 5-10 minute presentation. Chris On Nov 8, 2007, at 3:54 PM, Cosmin Stejerean wrote: > I think this might be the second time in a row we missed the > monthly meeting for various reasons. I remember some talks a while > ago about getting a benevolent dictator for 6 months that would > take care of venues, etc. What ever happened to that? In case > nobody stepped up I can volunteer for the job. > > - Cosmin > > On Nov 8, 2007 3:16 PM, Kumar McMillan > wrote: > I had proposed earlier in the week that we postpone the meeting until > next week, Thurs Nov 15 since there weren't any talks scheduled ... > but we still don't seem to have a venue. However, I *believe* Mr. > Zibble said he can provide a venue for next Thurs? Maybe someone can > confirm that and update the wiki :) > > On Nov 7, 2007 8:29 AM, Kevin L. Stern < kevin.l.stern at gmail.com> > wrote: > > Folks, > > > > So it seems the meeting is tomorrow at 7:00 P.M. Where will it be > > held? The website is still not updated. > > > > Thanks, > > > > Kevin > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Chicago mailing list > > Chicago at python.org > > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago > > > _______________________________________________ > Chicago mailing list > Chicago at python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago > > > > -- > Cosmin Stejerean > http://blog.offbytwo.com > _______________________________________________ > Chicago mailing list > Chicago at python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago From shekay at pobox.com Fri Nov 9 18:44:57 2007 From: shekay at pobox.com (sheila miguez) Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2007 11:44:57 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] Updated wiki for tomorrow's gathering In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I have an okay from work to host a meeting. Let me make sure I can get it by Thursday. I didn't hear about it until today. On Oct 10, 2007 6:46 PM, Rob Kapteyn wrote: > Assuming that there will be a social gathering at Cyberia tomorrow, > I put an FYI on on ChiPy wiki: > > > http://www.chipy.org > > > Unfortunately, I doubt that I can make it myself ;-( > (but I'll try) > > -Rob > _______________________________________________ > Chicago mailing list > Chicago at python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago > > -- sheila From shekay at pobox.com Fri Nov 9 18:50:51 2007 From: shekay at pobox.com (sheila miguez) Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2007 11:50:51 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] Updated wiki for tomorrow's gathering In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I work in the Ogilvy Transportation Center, btw. On Nov 9, 2007 11:44 AM, sheila miguez wrote: > I have an okay from work to host a meeting. Let me make sure I can get > it by Thursday. I didn't hear about it until today. > > > On Oct 10, 2007 6:46 PM, Rob Kapteyn wrote: > > Assuming that there will be a social gathering at Cyberia tomorrow, > > I put an FYI on on ChiPy wiki: > > > > > > http://www.chipy.org > > > > > > Unfortunately, I doubt that I can make it myself ;-( > > (but I'll try) > > > > -Rob > > _______________________________________________ > > Chicago mailing list > > Chicago at python.org > > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago > > > > > > > > -- > sheila > -- sheila From tcp at mac.com Fri Nov 9 19:49:06 2007 From: tcp at mac.com (Ted Pollari) Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2007 10:49:06 -0800 Subject: [Chicago] Updated wiki for tomorrow's gathering In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <254EA608-4ED0-4F07-B865-8B8ECEAF7C01@mac.com> On Nov 9, 2007, at 9:50 AM, sheila miguez wrote: > I work in the Ogilvy Transportation Center, btw. And the meeting will be held on run #359 of the Metra / Union Pacific District North Line, be on time, or ELSE! ;) From shekay at pobox.com Fri Nov 9 20:00:53 2007 From: shekay at pobox.com (sheila miguez) Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2007 13:00:53 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] Updated wiki for tomorrow's gathering In-Reply-To: <254EA608-4ED0-4F07-B865-8B8ECEAF7C01@mac.com> References: <254EA608-4ED0-4F07-B865-8B8ECEAF7C01@mac.com> Message-ID: I still have to work it out--they might like more than a weeks notice, I don't know. We had a gunman in the building once so I think facilities gets antsy about outsiders. On Nov 9, 2007 12:49 PM, Ted Pollari wrote: > > On Nov 9, 2007, at 9:50 AM, sheila miguez wrote: > > > I work in the Ogilvy Transportation Center, btw. > > > And the meeting will be held on run #359 of the Metra / Union Pacific > District North Line, be on time, or ELSE! > > ;) > > _______________________________________________ > Chicago mailing list > Chicago at python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago > -- sheila From carl at personnelware.com Fri Nov 9 20:07:10 2007 From: carl at personnelware.com (Carl Karsten) Date: Fri, 09 Nov 2007 13:07:10 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] Updated wiki for tomorrow's gathering In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4734AFDE.4080302@personnelware.com> sheila miguez wrote: > I have an okay from work to host a meeting. Let me make sure I can get > it by Thursday. I didn't hear about it until today. +1 on this location, even if we have offers. It will be good to solidify the mechanics when people still remember they agreed to it, as opposed to months later. Carl K From chris.mcavoy at gmail.com Fri Nov 9 20:07:18 2007 From: chris.mcavoy at gmail.com (Chris McAvoy) Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2007 13:07:18 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] Updated wiki for tomorrow's gathering In-Reply-To: References: <254EA608-4ED0-4F07-B865-8B8ECEAF7C01@mac.com> Message-ID: <640C44CE-ABDA-4A22-88DA-315DB7B65BA0@gmail.com> We have Performics for sure next Thursday. Chris On Nov 9, 2007, at 1:00 PM, sheila miguez wrote: > I still have to work it out--they might like more than a weeks notice, > I don't know. We had a gunman in the building once so I think > facilities gets antsy about outsiders. > > On Nov 9, 2007 12:49 PM, Ted Pollari wrote: >> >> On Nov 9, 2007, at 9:50 AM, sheila miguez wrote: >> >>> I work in the Ogilvy Transportation Center, btw. >> >> >> And the meeting will be held on run #359 of the Metra / Union Pacific >> District North Line, be on time, or ELSE! >> >> ;) >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Chicago mailing list >> Chicago at python.org >> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago >> > > > > -- > sheila > _______________________________________________ > Chicago mailing list > Chicago at python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago From shekay at pobox.com Fri Nov 9 20:59:35 2007 From: shekay at pobox.com (sheila miguez) Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2007 13:59:35 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] Updated wiki for tomorrow's gathering In-Reply-To: <640C44CE-ABDA-4A22-88DA-315DB7B65BA0@gmail.com> References: <254EA608-4ED0-4F07-B865-8B8ECEAF7C01@mac.com> <640C44CE-ABDA-4A22-88DA-315DB7B65BA0@gmail.com> Message-ID: Let's go with the sure thing right now. On Nov 9, 2007 1:07 PM, Chris McAvoy wrote: > We have Performics for sure next Thursday. > > Chris > > > > On Nov 9, 2007, at 1:00 PM, sheila miguez wrote: > > > I still have to work it out--they might like more than a weeks notice, > > I don't know. We had a gunman in the building once so I think > > facilities gets antsy about outsiders. > > > > On Nov 9, 2007 12:49 PM, Ted Pollari wrote: > >> > >> On Nov 9, 2007, at 9:50 AM, sheila miguez wrote: > >> > >>> I work in the Ogilvy Transportation Center, btw. > >> > >> > >> And the meeting will be held on run #359 of the Metra / Union Pacific > >> District North Line, be on time, or ELSE! > >> > >> ;) > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Chicago mailing list > >> Chicago at python.org > >> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago > >> > > > > > > > > -- > > sheila > > _______________________________________________ > > Chicago mailing list > > Chicago at python.org > > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago > > _______________________________________________ > Chicago mailing list > Chicago at python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago > -- sheila From carl at personnelware.com Fri Nov 9 21:10:06 2007 From: carl at personnelware.com (Carl Karsten) Date: Fri, 09 Nov 2007 14:10:06 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] Updated wiki for tomorrow's gathering In-Reply-To: <640C44CE-ABDA-4A22-88DA-315DB7B65BA0@gmail.com> References: <254EA608-4ED0-4F07-B865-8B8ECEAF7C01@mac.com> <640C44CE-ABDA-4A22-88DA-315DB7B65BA0@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4734BE9E.5050102@personnelware.com> Will Performics get pissed if we ditch them? Carl K Chris McAvoy wrote: > We have Performics for sure next Thursday. > > Chris > > > On Nov 9, 2007, at 1:00 PM, sheila miguez wrote: > >> I still have to work it out--they might like more than a weeks notice, >> I don't know. We had a gunman in the building once so I think >> facilities gets antsy about outsiders. >> >> On Nov 9, 2007 12:49 PM, Ted Pollari wrote: >>> On Nov 9, 2007, at 9:50 AM, sheila miguez wrote: >>> >>>> I work in the Ogilvy Transportation Center, btw. >>> >>> And the meeting will be held on run #359 of the Metra / Union Pacific >>> District North Line, be on time, or ELSE! >>> >>> ;) >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Chicago mailing list >>> Chicago at python.org >>> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago >>> >> >> >> -- >> sheila >> _______________________________________________ >> Chicago mailing list >> Chicago at python.org >> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago > > _______________________________________________ > Chicago mailing list > Chicago at python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago > > From zibble at gmail.com Fri Nov 9 21:11:37 2007 From: zibble at gmail.com (Scott Zibble) Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2007 14:11:37 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] Updated wiki for tomorrow's gathering In-Reply-To: <4734BE9E.5050102@personnelware.com> References: <254EA608-4ED0-4F07-B865-8B8ECEAF7C01@mac.com> <640C44CE-ABDA-4A22-88DA-315DB7B65BA0@gmail.com> <4734BE9E.5050102@personnelware.com> Message-ID: Nope. If you guys want to use the other space to help facilitate that being a space that can be used more often in the future, by all means, that's fine. I'll be back in Chicago tuesday of next week, too, in case something happens and we need to switch back to Performics at the last second. On Nov 9, 2007 2:10 PM, Carl Karsten wrote: > Will Performics get pissed if we ditch them? > > Carl K > > Chris McAvoy wrote: > > We have Performics for sure next Thursday. > > > > Chris > > > > > > On Nov 9, 2007, at 1:00 PM, sheila miguez wrote: > > > >> I still have to work it out--they might like more than a weeks notice, > >> I don't know. We had a gunman in the building once so I think > >> facilities gets antsy about outsiders. > >> > >> On Nov 9, 2007 12:49 PM, Ted Pollari wrote: > >>> On Nov 9, 2007, at 9:50 AM, sheila miguez wrote: > >>> > >>>> I work in the Ogilvy Transportation Center, btw. > >>> > >>> And the meeting will be held on run #359 of the Metra / Union Pacific > >>> District North Line, be on time, or ELSE! > >>> > >>> ;) > >>> > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> Chicago mailing list > >>> Chicago at python.org > >>> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago > >>> > >> > >> > >> -- > >> sheila > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Chicago mailing list > >> Chicago at python.org > >> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Chicago mailing list > > Chicago at python.org > > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Chicago mailing list > Chicago at python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mail.python.org/pipermail/chicago/attachments/20071109/a4ad42af/attachment-0001.htm From shekay at pobox.com Fri Nov 9 22:49:48 2007 From: shekay at pobox.com (sheila miguez) Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2007 15:49:48 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] Updated wiki for tomorrow's gathering In-Reply-To: <4734BE9E.5050102@personnelware.com> References: <254EA608-4ED0-4F07-B865-8B8ECEAF7C01@mac.com> <640C44CE-ABDA-4A22-88DA-315DB7B65BA0@gmail.com> <4734BE9E.5050102@personnelware.com> Message-ID: I don't want to change anyone's plans at the last minute. Go with Performance. If security has a meltdown on us, I don't want to strand people. On Nov 9, 2007 2:10 PM, Carl Karsten wrote: > Will Performics get pissed if we ditch them? > > Carl K > > > Chris McAvoy wrote: > > We have Performics for sure next Thursday. > > > > Chris > > > > > > On Nov 9, 2007, at 1:00 PM, sheila miguez wrote: > > > >> I still have to work it out--they might like more than a weeks notice, > >> I don't know. We had a gunman in the building once so I think > >> facilities gets antsy about outsiders. > >> > >> On Nov 9, 2007 12:49 PM, Ted Pollari wrote: > >>> On Nov 9, 2007, at 9:50 AM, sheila miguez wrote: > >>> > >>>> I work in the Ogilvy Transportation Center, btw. > >>> > >>> And the meeting will be held on run #359 of the Metra / Union Pacific > >>> District North Line, be on time, or ELSE! > >>> > >>> ;) > >>> > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> Chicago mailing list > >>> Chicago at python.org > >>> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago > >>> > >> > >> > >> -- > >> sheila > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Chicago mailing list > >> Chicago at python.org > >> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Chicago mailing list > > Chicago at python.org > > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Chicago mailing list > Chicago at python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago > -- sheila From shekay at pobox.com Fri Nov 9 23:56:06 2007 From: shekay at pobox.com (sheila miguez) Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2007 16:56:06 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] Updated wiki for tomorrow's gathering In-Reply-To: References: <254EA608-4ED0-4F07-B865-8B8ECEAF7C01@mac.com> <640C44CE-ABDA-4A22-88DA-315DB7B65BA0@gmail.com> <4734BE9E.5050102@personnelware.com> Message-ID: Okay guys, I got an official go-ahead from work. If it's not too late, I'd like to invite you all. I apologize for the confusion. On Nov 9, 2007 3:49 PM, sheila miguez wrote: > I don't want to change anyone's plans at the last minute. Go with Performance. > > If security has a meltdown on us, I don't want to strand people. > > On Nov 9, 2007 2:10 PM, Carl Karsten wrote: > > > Will Performics get pissed if we ditch them? > > > > Carl K > > > > > > Chris McAvoy wrote: > > > We have Performics for sure next Thursday. > > > > > > Chris > > > > > > > > > On Nov 9, 2007, at 1:00 PM, sheila miguez wrote: > > > > > >> I still have to work it out--they might like more than a weeks notice, > > >> I don't know. We had a gunman in the building once so I think > > >> facilities gets antsy about outsiders. > > >> > > >> On Nov 9, 2007 12:49 PM, Ted Pollari wrote: > > >>> On Nov 9, 2007, at 9:50 AM, sheila miguez wrote: > > >>> > > >>>> I work in the Ogilvy Transportation Center, btw. > > >>> > > >>> And the meeting will be held on run #359 of the Metra / Union Pacific > > >>> District North Line, be on time, or ELSE! > > >>> > > >>> ;) > > >>> > > >>> _______________________________________________ > > >>> Chicago mailing list > > >>> Chicago at python.org > > >>> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago > > >>> > > >> > > >> > > >> -- > > >> sheila > > >> _______________________________________________ > > >> Chicago mailing list > > >> Chicago at python.org > > >> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Chicago mailing list > > > Chicago at python.org > > > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Chicago mailing list > > Chicago at python.org > > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago > > > > > > -- > sheila > -- sheila From shekay at pobox.com Sat Nov 10 00:15:35 2007 From: shekay at pobox.com (sheila miguez) Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2007 17:15:35 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] Updated wiki for tomorrow's gathering In-Reply-To: References: <254EA608-4ED0-4F07-B865-8B8ECEAF7C01@mac.com> <640C44CE-ABDA-4A22-88DA-315DB7B65BA0@gmail.com> <4734BE9E.5050102@personnelware.com> Message-ID: In #chipy I got a suggestion for us to go ahead and host next month. That sounds like a good idea. It gives us more time to plan and solicit talks. On Nov 9, 2007 4:56 PM, sheila miguez wrote: > Okay guys, I got an official go-ahead from work. If it's not too late, > I'd like to invite you all. > > I apologize for the confusion. > > > > > On Nov 9, 2007 3:49 PM, sheila miguez wrote: > > I don't want to change anyone's plans at the last minute. Go with Performance. > > > > If security has a meltdown on us, I don't want to strand people. > > > > On Nov 9, 2007 2:10 PM, Carl Karsten wrote: > > > > > Will Performics get pissed if we ditch them? > > > > > > Carl K > > > > > > > > > Chris McAvoy wrote: > > > > We have Performics for sure next Thursday. > > > > > > > > Chris > > > > > > > > > > > > On Nov 9, 2007, at 1:00 PM, sheila miguez wrote: > > > > > > > >> I still have to work it out--they might like more than a weeks notice, > > > >> I don't know. We had a gunman in the building once so I think > > > >> facilities gets antsy about outsiders. > > > >> > > > >> On Nov 9, 2007 12:49 PM, Ted Pollari wrote: > > > >>> On Nov 9, 2007, at 9:50 AM, sheila miguez wrote: > > > >>> > > > >>>> I work in the Ogilvy Transportation Center, btw. > > > >>> > > > >>> And the meeting will be held on run #359 of the Metra / Union Pacific > > > >>> District North Line, be on time, or ELSE! > > > >>> > > > >>> ;) > > > >>> > > > >>> _______________________________________________ > > > >>> Chicago mailing list > > > >>> Chicago at python.org > > > >>> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> -- > > > >> sheila > > > >> _______________________________________________ > > > >> Chicago mailing list > > > >> Chicago at python.org > > > >> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > Chicago mailing list > > > > Chicago at python.org > > > > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Chicago mailing list > > > Chicago at python.org > > > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > sheila > > > > > > -- > sheila > -- sheila From carl at personnelware.com Sat Nov 10 15:58:10 2007 From: carl at personnelware.com (Carl Karsten) Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2007 08:58:10 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] Updated wiki for tomorrow's gathering In-Reply-To: References: <254EA608-4ED0-4F07-B865-8B8ECEAF7C01@mac.com> <640C44CE-ABDA-4A22-88DA-315DB7B65BA0@gmail.com> <4734BE9E.5050102@personnelware.com> Message-ID: <4735C702.4000807@personnelware.com> Looks like it is still up in the air as to where we will meet. Scott Zibble wrote: > Nope. If you guys want to use the other space to help facilitate that being > a space that can be used more often in the future, by all means, that's > fine. > > I'll be back in Chicago tuesday of next week, too, in case something happens > and we need to switch back to Performics at the last second. > > > > On Nov 9, 2007 2:10 PM, Carl Karsten wrote: > >> Will Performics get pissed if we ditch them? >> >> Carl K >> >> Chris McAvoy wrote: >>> We have Performics for sure next Thursday. >>> >>> Chris >>> >>> >>> On Nov 9, 2007, at 1:00 PM, sheila miguez wrote: >>> >>>> I still have to work it out--they might like more than a weeks notice, >>>> I don't know. We had a gunman in the building once so I think >>>> facilities gets antsy about outsiders. >>>> >>>> On Nov 9, 2007 12:49 PM, Ted Pollari wrote: >>>>> On Nov 9, 2007, at 9:50 AM, sheila miguez wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> I work in the Ogilvy Transportation Center, btw. >>>>> And the meeting will be held on run #359 of the Metra / Union Pacific >>>>> District North Line, be on time, or ELSE! >>>>> >>>>> ;) >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Chicago mailing list >>>>> Chicago at python.org >>>>> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago >>>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> sheila >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Chicago mailing list >>>> Chicago at python.org >>>> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Chicago mailing list >>> Chicago at python.org >>> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago >>> >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> Chicago mailing list >> Chicago at python.org >> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago >> > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > Chicago mailing list > Chicago at python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago From pohara at virtualmotors.com Sat Nov 10 16:43:16 2007 From: pohara at virtualmotors.com (Patrick O'Hara) Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2007 09:43:16 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] Updated wiki for tomorrow's gathering References: <254EA608-4ED0-4F07-B865-8B8ECEAF7C01@mac.com> <640C44CE-ABDA-4A22-88DA-315DB7B65BA0@gmail.com> <4734BE9E.5050102@personnelware.com> <4735C702.4000807@personnelware.com> Message-ID: <002601c823b0$69a81ae0$0200d20a@IBMUO5W0HB49M3> so Karl where is today's meeting going 2 be? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Carl Karsten" To: Sent: Saturday, November 10, 2007 8:58 AM Subject: Re: [Chicago] Updated wiki for tomorrow's gathering > Looks like it is still up in the air as to where we will meet. > > Scott Zibble wrote: >> Nope. If you guys want to use the other space to help facilitate that >> being >> a space that can be used more often in the future, by all means, that's >> fine. >> >> I'll be back in Chicago tuesday of next week, too, in case something >> happens >> and we need to switch back to Performics at the last second. >> >> >> >> On Nov 9, 2007 2:10 PM, Carl Karsten wrote: >> >>> Will Performics get pissed if we ditch them? >>> >>> Carl K >>> >>> Chris McAvoy wrote: >>>> We have Performics for sure next Thursday. >>>> >>>> Chris >>>> >>>> >>>> On Nov 9, 2007, at 1:00 PM, sheila miguez wrote: >>>> >>>>> I still have to work it out--they might like more than a weeks notice, >>>>> I don't know. We had a gunman in the building once so I think >>>>> facilities gets antsy about outsiders. >>>>> >>>>> On Nov 9, 2007 12:49 PM, Ted Pollari wrote: >>>>>> On Nov 9, 2007, at 9:50 AM, sheila miguez wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> I work in the Ogilvy Transportation Center, btw. >>>>>> And the meeting will be held on run #359 of the Metra / Union Pacific >>>>>> District North Line, be on time, or ELSE! >>>>>> >>>>>> ;) >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> Chicago mailing list >>>>>> Chicago at python.org >>>>>> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> sheila >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Chicago mailing list >>>>> Chicago at python.org >>>>> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Chicago mailing list >>>> Chicago at python.org >>>> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago >>>> >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Chicago mailing list >>> Chicago at python.org >>> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago >>> >> >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Chicago mailing list >> Chicago at python.org >> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago > _______________________________________________ > Chicago mailing list > Chicago at python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago > From carl at personnelware.com Sat Nov 10 17:08:22 2007 From: carl at personnelware.com (Carl Karsten) Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2007 10:08:22 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] Updated wiki for tomorrow's gathering In-Reply-To: <002601c823b0$69a81ae0$0200d20a@IBMUO5W0HB49M3> References: <254EA608-4ED0-4F07-B865-8B8ECEAF7C01@mac.com> <640C44CE-ABDA-4A22-88DA-315DB7B65BA0@gmail.com> <4734BE9E.5050102@personnelware.com> <4735C702.4000807@personnelware.com> <002601c823b0$69a81ae0$0200d20a@IBMUO5W0HB49M3> Message-ID: <4735D776.5030608@personnelware.com> No meeting today. Carl K Patrick O'Hara wrote: > so Karl where is today's meeting going 2 be? > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Carl Karsten" > To: > Sent: Saturday, November 10, 2007 8:58 AM > Subject: Re: [Chicago] Updated wiki for tomorrow's gathering > > >> Looks like it is still up in the air as to where we will meet. >> >> Scott Zibble wrote: >>> Nope. If you guys want to use the other space to help facilitate that >>> being >>> a space that can be used more often in the future, by all means, that's >>> fine. >>> >>> I'll be back in Chicago tuesday of next week, too, in case something >>> happens >>> and we need to switch back to Performics at the last second. >>> >>> >>> >>> On Nov 9, 2007 2:10 PM, Carl Karsten wrote: >>> >>>> Will Performics get pissed if we ditch them? >>>> >>>> Carl K >>>> >>>> Chris McAvoy wrote: >>>>> We have Performics for sure next Thursday. >>>>> >>>>> Chris >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Nov 9, 2007, at 1:00 PM, sheila miguez wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> I still have to work it out--they might like more than a weeks notice, >>>>>> I don't know. We had a gunman in the building once so I think >>>>>> facilities gets antsy about outsiders. >>>>>> >>>>>> On Nov 9, 2007 12:49 PM, Ted Pollari wrote: >>>>>>> On Nov 9, 2007, at 9:50 AM, sheila miguez wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I work in the Ogilvy Transportation Center, btw. >>>>>>> And the meeting will be held on run #359 of the Metra / Union Pacific >>>>>>> District North Line, be on time, or ELSE! >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ;) >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> Chicago mailing list >>>>>>> Chicago at python.org >>>>>>> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago >>>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> sheila >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> Chicago mailing list >>>>>> Chicago at python.org >>>>>> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Chicago mailing list >>>>> Chicago at python.org >>>>> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago >>>>> >>>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Chicago mailing list >>>> Chicago at python.org >>>> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago >>>> >>> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Chicago mailing list >>> Chicago at python.org >>> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago >> _______________________________________________ >> Chicago mailing list >> Chicago at python.org >> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago >> > > > _______________________________________________ > Chicago mailing list > Chicago at python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago > > From maney at two14.net Sat Nov 10 18:40:26 2007 From: maney at two14.net (Martin Maney) Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2007 11:40:26 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] Updated wiki for tomorrow's gathering In-Reply-To: <4735D776.5030608@personnelware.com> References: <254EA608-4ED0-4F07-B865-8B8ECEAF7C01@mac.com> <640C44CE-ABDA-4A22-88DA-315DB7B65BA0@gmail.com> <4735C702.4000807@personnelware.com> <002601c823b0$69a81ae0$0200d20a@IBMUO5W0HB49M3> <4735D776.5030608@personnelware.com> Message-ID: <20071110174026.GA7906@furrr.two14.net> On Sat, Nov 10, 2007 at 10:08:22AM -0600, Carl Karsten wrote: > No meeting today. Meeting yesterday and meeting tomorrow, never... Le plus ?a change... -- There's one way to find out if a man is honest: ask him; if he says yes, you know he's crooked. -- Twain From bray at sent.com Sat Nov 10 19:11:17 2007 From: bray at sent.com (Brian Ray) Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2007 12:11:17 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] Updated wiki for tomorrow's gathering In-Reply-To: <002601c823b0$69a81ae0$0200d20a@IBMUO5W0HB49M3> References: <254EA608-4ED0-4F07-B865-8B8ECEAF7C01@mac.com> <640C44CE-ABDA-4A22-88DA-315DB7B65BA0@gmail.com> <4734BE9E.5050102@personnelware.com> <4735C702.4000807@personnelware.com> <002601c823b0$69a81ae0$0200d20a@IBMUO5W0HB49M3> Message-ID: On Nov 10, 2007, at 9:43 AM, Patrick O'Hara wrote: > so Karl where is today's meeting going 2 be? Patrick O'Hara == Spammer From carl at personnelware.com Sat Nov 10 19:39:17 2007 From: carl at personnelware.com (Carl Karsten) Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2007 12:39:17 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] Updated wiki for tomorrow's gathering In-Reply-To: References: <254EA608-4ED0-4F07-B865-8B8ECEAF7C01@mac.com> <640C44CE-ABDA-4A22-88DA-315DB7B65BA0@gmail.com> <4734BE9E.5050102@personnelware.com> <4735C702.4000807@personnelware.com> <002601c823b0$69a81ae0$0200d20a@IBMUO5W0HB49M3> Message-ID: <4735FAD5.80807@personnelware.com> No. Patrick O'Hara == friend of mine Brian Ray == jumps to conclusions Brian Ray wrote: > On Nov 10, 2007, at 9:43 AM, Patrick O'Hara wrote: > >> so Karl where is today's meeting going 2 be? > > Patrick O'Hara == Spammer > _______________________________________________ > Chicago mailing list > Chicago at python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago > > From pohara at virtualmotors.com Sat Nov 10 20:20:24 2007 From: pohara at virtualmotors.com (Patrick O'Hara) Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2007 13:20:24 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] Updated wiki for tomorrow's gathering References: <254EA608-4ED0-4F07-B865-8B8ECEAF7C01@mac.com> <640C44CE-ABDA-4A22-88DA-315DB7B65BA0@gmail.com> <4734BE9E.5050102@personnelware.com><4735C702.4000807@personnelware.com><002601c823b0$69a81ae0$0200d20a@IBMUO5W0HB49M3> Message-ID: <006e01c823ce$c0ebe7a0$0200d20a@IBMUO5W0HB49M3> Brian Ray is who exactly? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Brian Ray" To: "The Chicago Python Users Group" Sent: Saturday, November 10, 2007 12:11 PM Subject: Re: [Chicago] Updated wiki for tomorrow's gathering > > On Nov 10, 2007, at 9:43 AM, Patrick O'Hara wrote: > >> so Karl where is today's meeting going 2 be? > > Patrick O'Hara == Spammer > _______________________________________________ > Chicago mailing list > Chicago at python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago > From kumar.mcmillan at gmail.com Sat Nov 10 22:13:58 2007 From: kumar.mcmillan at gmail.com (Kumar McMillan) Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2007 15:13:58 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] Updated wiki for tomorrow's gathering In-Reply-To: <006e01c823ce$c0ebe7a0$0200d20a@IBMUO5W0HB49M3> References: <254EA608-4ED0-4F07-B865-8B8ECEAF7C01@mac.com> <640C44CE-ABDA-4A22-88DA-315DB7B65BA0@gmail.com> <4734BE9E.5050102@personnelware.com> <4735C702.4000807@personnelware.com> <002601c823b0$69a81ae0$0200d20a@IBMUO5W0HB49M3> <006e01c823ce$c0ebe7a0$0200d20a@IBMUO5W0HB49M3> Message-ID: On Nov 10, 2007 1:20 PM, Patrick O'Hara wrote: > Brian Ray is who exactly? The Man, The Myth, The Legend > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Brian Ray" > To: "The Chicago Python Users Group" > Sent: Saturday, November 10, 2007 12:11 PM > Subject: Re: [Chicago] Updated wiki for tomorrow's gathering > > > > > > > On Nov 10, 2007, at 9:43 AM, Patrick O'Hara wrote: > > > >> so Karl where is today's meeting going 2 be? > > > > Patrick O'Hara == Spammer > > _______________________________________________ > > Chicago mailing list > > Chicago at python.org > > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago > > > > _______________________________________________ > Chicago mailing list > Chicago at python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago > From bray at sent.com Sat Nov 10 23:14:38 2007 From: bray at sent.com (Brian Ray) Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2007 16:14:38 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] Updated wiki for tomorrow's gathering In-Reply-To: <4735FAD5.80807@personnelware.com> References: <254EA608-4ED0-4F07-B865-8B8ECEAF7C01@mac.com> <640C44CE-ABDA-4A22-88DA-315DB7B65BA0@gmail.com> <4734BE9E.5050102@personnelware.com> <4735C702.4000807@personnelware.com> <002601c823b0$69a81ae0$0200d20a@IBMUO5W0HB49M3> <4735FAD5.80807@personnelware.com> Message-ID: <07EAC218-F35B-42FF-9B7B-C846306465C4@sent.com> On Nov 10, 2007, at 12:39 PM, Carl Karsten wrote: > No. > > Patrick O'Hara == friend of mine > > Brian Ray == jumps to conclusions My apologies, Carl, Patrick. Just found some of the posts a little odd :) Brian Ray bray at sent.com http://kazavoo.com/blog From carl at personnelware.com Sun Nov 11 00:26:49 2007 From: carl at personnelware.com (Carl Karsten) Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2007 17:26:49 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] Updated wiki for tomorrow's gathering In-Reply-To: <07EAC218-F35B-42FF-9B7B-C846306465C4@sent.com> References: <254EA608-4ED0-4F07-B865-8B8ECEAF7C01@mac.com> <640C44CE-ABDA-4A22-88DA-315DB7B65BA0@gmail.com> <4734BE9E.5050102@personnelware.com> <4735C702.4000807@personnelware.com> <002601c823b0$69a81ae0$0200d20a@IBMUO5W0HB49M3> <4735FAD5.80807@personnelware.com> <07EAC218-F35B-42FF-9B7B-C846306465C4@sent.com> Message-ID: <47363E39.8030304@personnelware.com> Brian Ray wrote: > On Nov 10, 2007, at 12:39 PM, Carl Karsten wrote: > >> No. >> >> Patrick O'Hara == friend of mine >> >> Brian Ray == jumps to conclusions > > My apologies, Carl, Patrick. Just found some of the posts a little > odd :) Just don't try to hug me at the meeting. > > > Brian Ray > bray at sent.com > http://kazavoo.com/blog > _______________________________________________ > Chicago mailing list > Chicago at python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago > > From pohara at virtualmotors.com Sun Nov 11 00:39:39 2007 From: pohara at virtualmotors.com (Patrick O'Hara) Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2007 17:39:39 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] MacBook Pro References: <254EA608-4ED0-4F07-B865-8B8ECEAF7C01@mac.com> <640C44CE-ABDA-4A22-88DA-315DB7B65BA0@gmail.com> <4734BE9E.5050102@personnelware.com> <4735C702.4000807@personnelware.com> <002601c823b0$69a81ae0$0200d20a@IBMUO5W0HB49M3><4735FAD5.80807@personnelware.com> <07EAC218-F35B-42FF-9B7B-C846306465C4@sent.com> Message-ID: <00b401c823f2$f6c347f0$0200d20a@IBMUO5W0HB49M3> Hello all Non Windows users.... Question: I have installed that software / firmware/ to allow(s) My Brand New macBook Pro to have multiple OS running concurrently But i have to partition the HDD Does that mean i have re-install OS-10? and then install the 2nd OS? Patrick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Brian Ray" To: "The Chicago Python Users Group" Sent: Saturday, November 10, 2007 4:14 PM Subject: Re: [Chicago] Updated wiki for tomorrow's gathering > > On Nov 10, 2007, at 12:39 PM, Carl Karsten wrote: > >> No. >> >> Patrick O'Hara == friend of mine >> >> Brian Ray == jumps to conclusions > > My apologies, Carl, Patrick. Just found some of the posts a little > odd :) > > > Brian Ray > bray at sent.com > http://kazavoo.com/blog > _______________________________________________ > Chicago mailing list > Chicago at python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago > From pohara at virtualmotors.com Sun Nov 11 03:27:59 2007 From: pohara at virtualmotors.com (Patrick O'Hara) Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2007 20:27:59 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] Updated wiki for tomorrow's gathering References: <254EA608-4ED0-4F07-B865-8B8ECEAF7C01@mac.com> <640C44CE-ABDA-4A22-88DA-315DB7B65BA0@gmail.com> <4734BE9E.5050102@personnelware.com> <4735C702.4000807@personnelware.com> <002601c823b0$69a81ae0$0200d20a@IBMUO5W0HB49M3> <4735FAD5.80807@personnelware.com><07EAC218-F35B-42FF-9B7B-C846306465C4@sent.com> <47363E39.8030304@personnelware.com> Message-ID: <00cc01c8240a$7a5cbcb0$0200d20a@IBMUO5W0HB49M3> you are Siic Man... ----- Original Message ----- From: "Carl Karsten" To: Sent: Saturday, November 10, 2007 5:26 PM Subject: Re: [Chicago] Updated wiki for tomorrow's gathering > Brian Ray wrote: >> On Nov 10, 2007, at 12:39 PM, Carl Karsten wrote: >> >>> No. >>> >>> Patrick O'Hara == friend of mine >>> >>> Brian Ray == jumps to conclusions >> >> My apologies, Carl, Patrick. Just found some of the posts a little >> odd :) > > Just don't try to hug me at the meeting. > >> >> >> Brian Ray >> bray at sent.com >> http://kazavoo.com/blog >> _______________________________________________ >> Chicago mailing list >> Chicago at python.org >> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago >> >> > _______________________________________________ > Chicago mailing list > Chicago at python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago > From maney at two14.net Sun Nov 11 08:07:19 2007 From: maney at two14.net (Martin Maney) Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2007 01:07:19 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] Rewriting Python? Message-ID: <20071111070719.GA9575@furrr.two14.net> Okay, this one hooked me, even though it's not saying anything really new. I think it was the throwaway explanation of why blogs are so often the way they are. But about back to thoughts about writing code: There?s some sort of fetish for small vocabularies in our industry. This idea that if you use simple words and simple sentences, clear writing necessarily follows without further effort. This is like assuming that the smaller your vocabulary, and the simpler your sentences, the more you write like Hemmingway. http://weblog.raganwald.com/2007/10/zen-in-art-of-rewriting.html -- Then I can figure out what the information-support needs are and build a prototype for people to respond to. This works, because people generally don't know what they need, but they can tell you with certainty when you get it wrong. -- Paul Murphy From jason at multiply.org Sun Nov 11 18:35:00 2007 From: jason at multiply.org (jason gessner) Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2007 11:35:00 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] MacBook Pro In-Reply-To: <00b401c823f2$f6c347f0$0200d20a@IBMUO5W0HB49M3> References: <640C44CE-ABDA-4A22-88DA-315DB7B65BA0@gmail.com> <4734BE9E.5050102@personnelware.com> <4735C702.4000807@personnelware.com> <002601c823b0$69a81ae0$0200d20a@IBMUO5W0HB49M3> <4735FAD5.80807@personnelware.com> <07EAC218-F35B-42FF-9B7B-C846306465C4@sent.com> <00b401c823f2$f6c347f0$0200d20a@IBMUO5W0HB49M3> Message-ID: <4e0c849b0711110935m69c52f6bye14a634a760142f7@mail.gmail.com> i believe that disk utility on the mac will let you change your partition size without reinstalling. check out the help before you try it though. :) On Nov 10, 2007 5:39 PM, Patrick O'Hara wrote: > Hello all Non Windows users.... > Question: > I have installed that software / firmware/ to allow(s) > My Brand New macBook Pro to have multiple OS > running concurrently > But i have to partition the HDD > Does that mean i have re-install OS-10? > and then install the 2nd OS? > > Patrick > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Brian Ray" > To: "The Chicago Python Users Group" > Sent: Saturday, November 10, 2007 4:14 PM > Subject: Re: [Chicago] Updated wiki for tomorrow's gathering > > > > > > On Nov 10, 2007, at 12:39 PM, Carl Karsten wrote: > > > >> No. > >> > >> Patrick O'Hara == friend of mine > >> > >> Brian Ray == jumps to conclusions > > > > My apologies, Carl, Patrick. Just found some of the posts a little > > odd :) > > > > > > Brian Ray > > bray at sent.com > > http://kazavoo.com/blog > > _______________________________________________ > > Chicago mailing list > > Chicago at python.org > > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago > > > > _______________________________________________ > Chicago mailing list > Chicago at python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago > From pohara at virtualmotors.com Mon Nov 12 06:23:25 2007 From: pohara at virtualmotors.com (Patrick O'Hara) Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2007 23:23:25 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] MacBook Pro References: <640C44CE-ABDA-4A22-88DA-315DB7B65BA0@gmail.com><4734BE9E.5050102@personnelware.com><4735C702.4000807@personnelware.com><002601c823b0$69a81ae0$0200d20a@IBMUO5W0HB49M3><4735FAD5.80807@personnelware.com><07EAC218-F35B-42FF-9B7B-C846306465C4@sent.com><00b401c823f2$f6c347f0$0200d20a@IBMUO5W0HB49M3> <4e0c849b0711110935m69c52f6bye14a634a760142f7@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <001f01c824ec$292cc1e0$7402a8c0@IBMUO5W0HB49M3> okay i will thank you. Jason ----- Original Message ----- From: "jason gessner" To: "The Chicago Python Users Group" Sent: Sunday, November 11, 2007 11:35 AM Subject: Re: [Chicago] MacBook Pro >i believe that disk utility on the mac will let you change your > partition size without reinstalling. check out the help before you > try it though. :) > > On Nov 10, 2007 5:39 PM, Patrick O'Hara wrote: >> Hello all Non Windows users.... >> Question: >> I have installed that software / firmware/ to allow(s) >> My Brand New macBook Pro to have multiple OS >> running concurrently >> But i have to partition the HDD >> Does that mean i have re-install OS-10? >> and then install the 2nd OS? >> >> Patrick >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Brian Ray" >> To: "The Chicago Python Users Group" >> Sent: Saturday, November 10, 2007 4:14 PM >> Subject: Re: [Chicago] Updated wiki for tomorrow's gathering >> >> >> > >> > On Nov 10, 2007, at 12:39 PM, Carl Karsten wrote: >> > >> >> No. >> >> >> >> Patrick O'Hara == friend of mine >> >> >> >> Brian Ray == jumps to conclusions >> > >> > My apologies, Carl, Patrick. Just found some of the posts a little >> > odd :) >> > >> > >> > Brian Ray >> > bray at sent.com >> > http://kazavoo.com/blog >> > _______________________________________________ >> > Chicago mailing list >> > Chicago at python.org >> > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago >> > >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Chicago mailing list >> Chicago at python.org >> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago >> > _______________________________________________ > Chicago mailing list > Chicago at python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago > From nerkles at gmail.com Mon Nov 12 15:15:53 2007 From: nerkles at gmail.com (Isaac Csandl) Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 08:15:53 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] MacBook Pro In-Reply-To: <001f01c824ec$292cc1e0$7402a8c0@IBMUO5W0HB49M3> References: <640C44CE-ABDA-4A22-88DA-315DB7B65BA0@gmail.com><4734BE9E.5050102@personnelware.com><4735C702.4000807@personnelware.com><002601c823b0$69a81ae0$0200d20a@IBMUO5W0HB49M3><4735FAD5.80807@personnelware.com><07EAC218-F35B-42FF-9B7B-C846306465C4@sent.com><00b401c823f2$f6c347f0$0200d20a@IBMUO5W0HB49M3> <4e0c849b0711110935m69c52f6bye14a634a760142f7@mail.gmail.com> <001f01c824ec$292cc1e0$7402a8c0@IBMUO5W0HB49M3> Message-ID: On Nov 11, 2007, at 11:23 PM, Patrick O'Hara wrote: > okay i will > thank you. > Jason > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "jason gessner" > To: "The Chicago Python Users Group" > Sent: Sunday, November 11, 2007 11:35 AM > Subject: Re: [Chicago] MacBook Pro > > >> i believe that disk utility on the mac will let you change your >> partition size without reinstalling. check out the help before you >> try it though. :) >> Leopard's Disk Utility can do some minor resizing, but it's not very flexible. The only thing I know of that will let you resize partitions on a Mac any way you want, non-destructively, is iPartition, which is not free, unfortunately, but it works very well (it's around $45 IIRC). Currently you have to run it from Tiger, but it will safely resize Leopard-containing partitions and boot camp partitions, etc. They say they'll have a version that runs in Leopard soon. Note: it doesn't work with SoftRAID. I've heard tell of people using a Linux installer CD and parted, but can't vouch for its handling of Apple's partitioning scheme or HFS+... anybody actually tried it? --isaac >> On Nov 10, 2007 5:39 PM, Patrick O'Hara >> wrote: >>> Hello all Non Windows users.... >>> Question: >>> I have installed that software / firmware/ to allow(s) >>> My Brand New macBook Pro to have multiple OS >>> running concurrently >>> But i have to partition the HDD >>> Does that mean i have re-install OS-10? >>> and then install the 2nd OS? >>> >>> Patrick >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "Brian Ray" >>> To: "The Chicago Python Users Group" >>> Sent: Saturday, November 10, 2007 4:14 PM >>> Subject: Re: [Chicago] Updated wiki for tomorrow's gathering >>> >>> >>>> >>>> On Nov 10, 2007, at 12:39 PM, Carl Karsten wrote: >>>> >>>>> No. >>>>> >>>>> Patrick O'Hara == friend of mine >>>>> >>>>> Brian Ray == jumps to conclusions >>>> >>>> My apologies, Carl, Patrick. Just found some of the posts a little >>>> odd :) >>>> >>>> >>>> Brian Ray >>>> bray at sent.com >>>> http://kazavoo.com/blog >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> From sgithens at caret.cam.ac.uk Mon Nov 12 15:26:30 2007 From: sgithens at caret.cam.ac.uk (swg) Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 08:26:30 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] MacBook Pro In-Reply-To: References: <640C44CE-ABDA-4A22-88DA-315DB7B65BA0@gmail.com><4734BE9E.5050102@personnelware.com><4735C702.4000807@personnelware.com><002601c823b0$69a81ae0$0200d20a@IBMUO5W0HB49M3><4735FAD5.80807@personnelware.com><07EAC218-F35B-42FF-9B7B-C846306465C4@sent.com><00b401c823f2$f6c347f0$0200d20a@IBMUO5W0HB49M3> <4e0c849b0711110935m69c52f6bye14a634a760142f7@mail.gmail.com> <001f01c824ec$292cc1e0$7402a8c0@IBMUO5W0HB49M3> Message-ID: <47386296.807@caret.cam.ac.uk> I primarily use Ubuntu on my Macbook, but keep OS X around and have them dual boot using bootcamp. I used the built in partitioner on OS X, and while it worked, it seems to be very picky about the disk sizes. I've found that if I use any of the configurations is offers by default, things seem to work ok, but everytime I've tried to make them the sizes I really want, it tarballs everything up and I end up starting from scratch... s Isaac Csandl wrote: > On Nov 11, 2007, at 11:23 PM, Patrick O'Hara wrote: > > >> okay i will >> thank you. >> Jason >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "jason gessner" >> To: "The Chicago Python Users Group" >> Sent: Sunday, November 11, 2007 11:35 AM >> Subject: Re: [Chicago] MacBook Pro >> >> >> >>> i believe that disk utility on the mac will let you change your >>> partition size without reinstalling. check out the help before you >>> try it though. :) >>> >>> > > > Leopard's Disk Utility can do some minor resizing, but it's not very > flexible. The only thing I know of that will let you resize partitions > on a Mac any way you want, non-destructively, is iPartition, which is > not free, unfortunately, but it works very well (it's around $45 > IIRC). Currently you have to run it from Tiger, but it will safely > resize Leopard-containing partitions and boot camp partitions, etc. > They say they'll have a version that runs in Leopard soon. > > Note: it doesn't work with SoftRAID. > > I've heard tell of people using a Linux installer CD and parted, but > can't vouch for its handling of Apple's partitioning scheme or HFS+... > anybody actually tried it? > > --isaac > > > > >>> On Nov 10, 2007 5:39 PM, Patrick O'Hara >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Hello all Non Windows users.... >>>> Question: >>>> I have installed that software / firmware/ to allow(s) >>>> My Brand New macBook Pro to have multiple OS >>>> running concurrently >>>> But i have to partition the HDD >>>> Does that mean i have re-install OS-10? >>>> and then install the 2nd OS? >>>> >>>> Patrick >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> From: "Brian Ray" >>>> To: "The Chicago Python Users Group" >>>> Sent: Saturday, November 10, 2007 4:14 PM >>>> Subject: Re: [Chicago] Updated wiki for tomorrow's gathering >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> On Nov 10, 2007, at 12:39 PM, Carl Karsten wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> No. >>>>>> >>>>>> Patrick O'Hara == friend of mine >>>>>> >>>>>> Brian Ray == jumps to conclusions >>>>>> >>>>> My apologies, Carl, Patrick. Just found some of the posts a little >>>>> odd :) >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Brian Ray >>>>> bray at sent.com >>>>> http://kazavoo.com/blog >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> >>>>> > _______________________________________________ > Chicago mailing list > Chicago at python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago > > From pfein at pobox.com Mon Nov 12 15:47:24 2007 From: pfein at pobox.com (Pete) Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 09:47:24 -0500 Subject: [Chicago] MacBook Pro In-Reply-To: References: <001f01c824ec$292cc1e0$7402a8c0@IBMUO5W0HB49M3> Message-ID: <200711120947.24698.pfein@pobox.com> What the hell-all does this have to do with Python?!? We're usually pretty loose about being off-topic here, but this is ridiculous. This isn't your personal support forum, take it elsewhere. On Monday November 12 2007 9:15:53 am Isaac Csandl wrote: > On Nov 11, 2007, at 11:23 PM, Patrick O'Hara wrote: > > okay i will > > thank you. > > Jason > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "jason gessner" > > To: "The Chicago Python Users Group" > > Sent: Sunday, November 11, 2007 11:35 AM > > Subject: Re: [Chicago] MacBook Pro > > > >> i believe that disk utility on the mac will let you change your > >> partition size without reinstalling. check out the help before you > >> try it though. :) > > Leopard's Disk Utility can do some minor resizing, but it's not very > flexible. The only thing I know of that will let you resize partitions > on a Mac any way you want, non-destructively, is iPartition, which is > not free, unfortunately, but it works very well (it's around $45 > IIRC). Currently you have to run it from Tiger, but it will safely > resize Leopard-containing partitions and boot camp partitions, etc. > They say they'll have a version that runs in Leopard soon. > > Note: it doesn't work with SoftRAID. > > I've heard tell of people using a Linux installer CD and parted, but > can't vouch for its handling of Apple's partitioning scheme or HFS+... > anybody actually tried it? > > --isaac > > >> On Nov 10, 2007 5:39 PM, Patrick O'Hara > >> > >> wrote: > >>> Hello all Non Windows users.... > >>> Question: > >>> I have installed that software / firmware/ to allow(s) > >>> My Brand New macBook Pro to have multiple OS > >>> running concurrently > >>> But i have to partition the HDD > >>> Does that mean i have re-install OS-10? > >>> and then install the 2nd OS? > >>> > >>> Patrick > >>> ----- Original Message ----- > >>> From: "Brian Ray" > >>> To: "The Chicago Python Users Group" > >>> Sent: Saturday, November 10, 2007 4:14 PM > >>> Subject: Re: [Chicago] Updated wiki for tomorrow's gathering > >>> > >>>> On Nov 10, 2007, at 12:39 PM, Carl Karsten wrote: > >>>>> No. > >>>>> > >>>>> Patrick O'Hara == friend of mine > >>>>> > >>>>> Brian Ray == jumps to conclusions > >>>> > >>>> My apologies, Carl, Patrick. Just found some of the posts a little > >>>> odd :) > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> Brian Ray > >>>> bray at sent.com > >>>> http://kazavoo.com/blog > >>>> _______________________________________________ > > _______________________________________________ > Chicago mailing list > Chicago at python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago -- Peter Fein || 773-575-0694 || pfein at pobox.com http://www.pobox.com/~pfein/ || PGP: 0xCCF6AE6B irc: pfein at freenode.net || jabber: peter.fein at gmail.com From mtemkin at speakeasy.net Sun Nov 11 19:42:20 2007 From: mtemkin at speakeasy.net (Marc Temkin) Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2007 12:42:20 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] Please post re upcoming ACM Chicago meeting this Wednesday Message-ID: <000301c82492$9802e1d0$6501a8c0@DREAMCATCHER232> Please post re upcoming ACM Chicago meeting this Wednesday Thanks, Marc Temkin This information is also on the Chapter website at: http://www.acm.org/chapters/chicago The next meeting of the Chicago Chapter is: The Business of Open Source Turning a Project into a Product Wednesday, November 14, 2007 DePaul University Downtown Center, in the Chicago Loop Computer Science and Telecommunication Center 243 S. Wabash Ave (Northeast corner of Wabash & Jackson) Room 436A Presented by: JT Smith President, Plain Black Corporation 5:30 p.m. Social Hour, Dinner Buffet & Refreshments 6:30 p.m. Presentation Cost: $10 Chapter members $12 Non-members $5 Students TOPIC ABSTRACT: Have you built an open source project? Thinking about one? Would you like to make some money on it without selling your soul? Learn how from someone who's done it. This presentation will walk you through the ups and downs of running a project and coercing it into a product. You'll learn how to get more from your community, what hurdles to expect along the way, how to form a business around your project, and how to manage growth. Even if you don't want to be an entrepreneur or don't have an open source project, the story itself is a fun and educational ride. * How to monetize open source and still think happy thoughts * How to manage and motivate your community * Making success your biggest problem * Communicating the need for change (because it will happen) * Understanding risk * Dealing with nay-sayers ABOUT THE SPEAKER: JT Smith is President of Plain Black Corporation, and creator of the open source content management system WebGUI. In 1999, JT began working on a project called Web Done Right. A professional in Internet technology since 1992, he recognized the need for a web application framework that married both ease of use and power. Web Done Right evolved and after a number of revisions JT launched WebGUI and its parent company, Plain Black Corporation, in 2001. Less than a decade since its inception, WebGUI has become one of the most popular content management systems available. In the process, JT's expertise and experience have earned him recognition as an innovative and knowledgeable leader in the open source community. JT has spoken internationally at conferences and institutions including HOSC, PerlSIG, OSCOM, Harvard, and YAPC. He has written articles and given expert interviews for such publications as eWeek, CIO, ComputerWorld, LinuxWorld, the Intranet Journal, Perl.com, Chicago Daily Herald, and NewsForge. He also supports local publications and user groups by speaking and participating as a leader in the open source community. {* Please RESERVE *} Note: Please make your reservation as soon as you know you are coming. We need a headcount for the food, as we order it in advance. Even if it is last-minute, reserve anyway. Thanks. Please make your meeting reservation by replying to this e-mail ( greg at neumarke.net ) You may also call Greg at (work) 773-907-3308 # This message contains news about the Chicago Chapter of the # ACM. You receive this because you agreed to it or gave your e-mail # address on the Chicago Chapter registration. If this message has # reached you in error, reply and ask to be removed from the list. From sgithens at caret.cam.ac.uk Mon Nov 12 16:36:02 2007 From: sgithens at caret.cam.ac.uk (swg) Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 09:36:02 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] MacBook Pro In-Reply-To: <200711120947.24698.pfein@pobox.com> References: <001f01c824ec$292cc1e0$7402a8c0@IBMUO5W0HB49M3> <200711120947.24698.pfein@pobox.com> Message-ID: <473872E2.3040909@caret.cam.ac.uk> I was able to sympathize a bit on this particular issue, just because of all the problems I've ran into whenever I try to do Python work on OS X. I'm guessing folks here don't have this problem (since everyone is a python hacker and there seem to be a fair number of Apple Notebooks at meetings), but most folks I know (including myself) have a real hard time getting extra modules and anything that's not OOTB installed and working on OS X. It's almost easier sometimes to just install an OS that has a package manager or better python distributions and double clickable's. -s Pete wrote: > What the hell-all does this have to do with Python?!? We're usually pretty > loose about being off-topic here, but this is ridiculous. This isn't your > personal support forum, take it elsewhere. > > On Monday November 12 2007 9:15:53 am Isaac Csandl wrote: > >> On Nov 11, 2007, at 11:23 PM, Patrick O'Hara wrote: >> >>> okay i will >>> thank you. >>> Jason >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "jason gessner" >>> To: "The Chicago Python Users Group" >>> Sent: Sunday, November 11, 2007 11:35 AM >>> Subject: Re: [Chicago] MacBook Pro >>> >>> >>>> i believe that disk utility on the mac will let you change your >>>> partition size without reinstalling. check out the help before you >>>> try it though. :) >>>> >> Leopard's Disk Utility can do some minor resizing, but it's not very >> flexible. The only thing I know of that will let you resize partitions >> on a Mac any way you want, non-destructively, is iPartition, which is >> not free, unfortunately, but it works very well (it's around $45 >> IIRC). Currently you have to run it from Tiger, but it will safely >> resize Leopard-containing partitions and boot camp partitions, etc. >> They say they'll have a version that runs in Leopard soon. >> >> Note: it doesn't work with SoftRAID. >> >> I've heard tell of people using a Linux installer CD and parted, but >> can't vouch for its handling of Apple's partitioning scheme or HFS+... >> anybody actually tried it? >> >> --isaac >> >> >>>> On Nov 10, 2007 5:39 PM, Patrick O'Hara >>>> >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Hello all Non Windows users.... >>>>> Question: >>>>> I have installed that software / firmware/ to allow(s) >>>>> My Brand New macBook Pro to have multiple OS >>>>> running concurrently >>>>> But i have to partition the HDD >>>>> Does that mean i have re-install OS-10? >>>>> and then install the 2nd OS? >>>>> >>>>> Patrick >>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>> From: "Brian Ray" >>>>> To: "The Chicago Python Users Group" >>>>> Sent: Saturday, November 10, 2007 4:14 PM >>>>> Subject: Re: [Chicago] Updated wiki for tomorrow's gathering >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> On Nov 10, 2007, at 12:39 PM, Carl Karsten wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> No. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Patrick O'Hara == friend of mine >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Brian Ray == jumps to conclusions >>>>>>> >>>>>> My apologies, Carl, Patrick. Just found some of the posts a little >>>>>> odd :) >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Brian Ray >>>>>> bray at sent.com >>>>>> http://kazavoo.com/blog >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> >> _______________________________________________ >> Chicago mailing list >> Chicago at python.org >> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago >> > > > > From tcp at mac.com Mon Nov 12 16:46:46 2007 From: tcp at mac.com (Ted Pollari) Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 09:46:46 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] MacBook Pro In-Reply-To: <473872E2.3040909@caret.cam.ac.uk> References: <001f01c824ec$292cc1e0$7402a8c0@IBMUO5W0HB49M3> <200711120947.24698.pfein@pobox.com> <473872E2.3040909@caret.cam.ac.uk> Message-ID: <288069FC-DD1C-428B-A927-6830797D1CF3@mac.com> On Nov 12, 2007, at 9:36 AM, swg wrote: > I'm guessing folks here don't have this problem (since everyone is a > python hacker and there seem to be a fair number of Apple Notebooks at > meetings), but most folks I know (including myself) have a real hard > time getting extra modules and anything that's not OOTB installed and > working on OS X. Really? Despite how much I b.s. on list, I don't consider myself a real hardcore python hacker (though I guess I'd say I'm a pretty savvy OS X user/admin) and I haven't really had any major issues with Python and OS X. What sort of issues have you run into? -t From nerkles at gmail.com Mon Nov 12 16:49:36 2007 From: nerkles at gmail.com (isaac) Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 09:49:36 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] MacBook Pro In-Reply-To: <200711120947.24698.pfein@pobox.com> References: <001f01c824ec$292cc1e0$7402a8c0@IBMUO5W0HB49M3> <200711120947.24698.pfein@pobox.com> Message-ID: <57427b5b0711120749r23e722efh3e297f3dd9e8e81b@mail.gmail.com> On Nov 12, 2007 8:47 AM, Pete wrote: > What the hell-all does this have to do with Python?!? We're usually pretty > loose about being off-topic here, but this is ridiculous. This isn't your > personal support forum, take it elsewhere. Pete, you're right: I'll try not to be so nice to people in the future. At least not in public like this, it's downright unseemly. :P > On Monday November 12 2007 9:15:53 am Isaac Csandl wrote: > > On Nov 11, 2007, at 11:23 PM, Patrick O'Hara wrote: > > > okay i will > > > thank you. > > > Jason > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: "jason gessner" > > > To: "The Chicago Python Users Group" > > > Sent: Sunday, November 11, 2007 11:35 AM > > > Subject: Re: [Chicago] MacBook Pro > > > > > >> i believe that disk utility on the mac will let you change your > > >> partition size without reinstalling. check out the help before you > > >> try it though. :) > > > > Leopard's Disk Utility can do some minor resizing, but it's not very > > flexible. The only thing I know of that will let you resize partitions > > on a Mac any way you want, non-destructively, is iPartition, which is > > not free, unfortunately, but it works very well (it's around $45 > > IIRC). Currently you have to run it from Tiger, but it will safely > > resize Leopard-containing partitions and boot camp partitions, etc. > > They say they'll have a version that runs in Leopard soon. > > > > Note: it doesn't work with SoftRAID. > > > > I've heard tell of people using a Linux installer CD and parted, but > > can't vouch for its handling of Apple's partitioning scheme or HFS+... > > anybody actually tried it? > > > > --isaac > > > > >> On Nov 10, 2007 5:39 PM, Patrick O'Hara > > >> > > >> wrote: > > >>> Hello all Non Windows users.... > > >>> Question: > > >>> I have installed that software / firmware/ to allow(s) > > >>> My Brand New macBook Pro to have multiple OS > > >>> running concurrently > > >>> But i have to partition the HDD > > >>> Does that mean i have re-install OS-10? > > >>> and then install the 2nd OS? > > >>> > > >>> Patrick > > >>> ----- Original Message ----- > > >>> From: "Brian Ray" > > >>> To: "The Chicago Python Users Group" > > >>> Sent: Saturday, November 10, 2007 4:14 PM > > >>> Subject: Re: [Chicago] Updated wiki for tomorrow's gathering > > >>> > > >>>> On Nov 10, 2007, at 12:39 PM, Carl Karsten wrote: > > >>>>> No. > > >>>>> > > >>>>> Patrick O'Hara == friend of mine > > >>>>> > > >>>>> Brian Ray == jumps to conclusions > > >>>> > > >>>> My apologies, Carl, Patrick. Just found some of the posts a little > > >>>> odd :) > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> Brian Ray > > >>>> bray at sent.com > > >>>> http://kazavoo.com/blog > > >>>> _______________________________________________ > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Chicago mailing list > > Chicago at python.org > > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago > > > > -- > Peter Fein || 773-575-0694 || pfein at pobox.com > http://www.pobox.com/~pfein/ || PGP: 0xCCF6AE6B > irc: pfein at freenode.net || jabber: peter.fein at gmail.com > From shekay at pobox.com Mon Nov 12 16:53:56 2007 From: shekay at pobox.com (sheila miguez) Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 09:53:56 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] MacBook Pro In-Reply-To: <473872E2.3040909@caret.cam.ac.uk> References: <001f01c824ec$292cc1e0$7402a8c0@IBMUO5W0HB49M3> <200711120947.24698.pfein@pobox.com> <473872E2.3040909@caret.cam.ac.uk> Message-ID: I wanted to do some stuff and ended not using the python that comes natively on the mac. get the mac framework http://www.python.org/download/ easy_install often works to get python packages http://peak.telecommunity.com/DevCenter/EasyInstall there are some precompiled mac packages here http://pythonmac.org/packages/py24-fat/index.html Also, you can get some stuff on the mac with the fink package manager. and you can install apt-get from fink as well, iirc. at least, I got apt-get somehow. Patrick lives off on planet patrick because I remember Carl trying to explain virtual machines to him so that Patrick could try developing in different environments, and now he is asking about boot partitions, huh? He could leave off with worrying about partitions and play with qemu, aka Q.app on osx. A long time ago I did manage to install yellow dog to a partition on my tiBook, but it never played well with the display. Which is why I ended up reinstalling everything after wiping my disk out while trying to change the partition size with iPartition. But I knew that was a risk so I didn't care that much. On Nov 12, 2007 9:36 AM, swg wrote: > I was able to sympathize a bit on this particular issue, just because of > all the problems I've ran into whenever I try to do Python work on OS X. > > I'm guessing folks here don't have this problem (since everyone is a > python hacker and there seem to be a fair number of Apple Notebooks at > meetings), but most folks I know (including myself) have a real hard > time getting extra modules and anything that's not OOTB installed and > working on OS X. > > It's almost easier sometimes to just install an OS that has a package > manager or better python distributions and double clickable's. > > -s > > > Pete wrote: > > What the hell-all does this have to do with Python?!? We're usually pretty > > loose about being off-topic here, but this is ridiculous. This isn't your > > personal support forum, take it elsewhere. > > > > On Monday November 12 2007 9:15:53 am Isaac Csandl wrote: > > > >> On Nov 11, 2007, at 11:23 PM, Patrick O'Hara wrote: > >> > >>> okay i will > >>> thank you. > >>> Jason > >>> ----- Original Message ----- > >>> From: "jason gessner" > >>> To: "The Chicago Python Users Group" > >>> Sent: Sunday, November 11, 2007 11:35 AM > >>> Subject: Re: [Chicago] MacBook Pro > >>> > >>> > >>>> i believe that disk utility on the mac will let you change your > >>>> partition size without reinstalling. check out the help before you > >>>> try it though. :) > >>>> > >> Leopard's Disk Utility can do some minor resizing, but it's not very > >> flexible. The only thing I know of that will let you resize partitions > >> on a Mac any way you want, non-destructively, is iPartition, which is > >> not free, unfortunately, but it works very well (it's around $45 > >> IIRC). Currently you have to run it from Tiger, but it will safely > >> resize Leopard-containing partitions and boot camp partitions, etc. > >> They say they'll have a version that runs in Leopard soon. > >> > >> Note: it doesn't work with SoftRAID. > >> > >> I've heard tell of people using a Linux installer CD and parted, but > >> can't vouch for its handling of Apple's partitioning scheme or HFS+... > >> anybody actually tried it? > >> > >> --isaac > >> > >> > >>>> On Nov 10, 2007 5:39 PM, Patrick O'Hara > >>>> > >>>> wrote: > >>>> > >>>>> Hello all Non Windows users.... > >>>>> Question: > >>>>> I have installed that software / firmware/ to allow(s) > >>>>> My Brand New macBook Pro to have multiple OS > >>>>> running concurrently > >>>>> But i have to partition the HDD > >>>>> Does that mean i have re-install OS-10? > >>>>> and then install the 2nd OS? > >>>>> > >>>>> Patrick > >>>>> ----- Original Message ----- > >>>>> From: "Brian Ray" > >>>>> To: "The Chicago Python Users Group" > >>>>> Sent: Saturday, November 10, 2007 4:14 PM > >>>>> Subject: Re: [Chicago] Updated wiki for tomorrow's gathering > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>>> On Nov 10, 2007, at 12:39 PM, Carl Karsten wrote: > >>>>>> > >>>>>>> No. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Patrick O'Hara == friend of mine > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Brian Ray == jumps to conclusions > >>>>>>> > >>>>>> My apologies, Carl, Patrick. Just found some of the posts a little > >>>>>> odd :) > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Brian Ray > >>>>>> bray at sent.com > >>>>>> http://kazavoo.com/blog > >>>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>>> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Chicago mailing list > >> Chicago at python.org > >> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago > >> > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Chicago mailing list > Chicago at python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago > -- sheila From shekay at pobox.com Mon Nov 12 16:59:35 2007 From: shekay at pobox.com (sheila miguez) Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 09:59:35 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] MacBook Pro In-Reply-To: References: <001f01c824ec$292cc1e0$7402a8c0@IBMUO5W0HB49M3> <200711120947.24698.pfein@pobox.com> <473872E2.3040909@caret.cam.ac.uk> Message-ID: On Nov 12, 2007 9:53 AM, sheila miguez wrote: > I wanted to do some stuff and ended not using the python that comes > natively on the mac. > > get the mac framework http://www.python.org/download/ > I had forgotten why I went through the trouble to get a different version of python--wxWidgets. at the time I wanted to play with them, one needed a "framework" install of python for working with wxpython. -- sheila From tcp at mac.com Mon Nov 12 17:23:41 2007 From: tcp at mac.com (Ted Pollari) Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 10:23:41 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] MacBook Pro In-Reply-To: References: <001f01c824ec$292cc1e0$7402a8c0@IBMUO5W0HB49M3> <200711120947.24698.pfein@pobox.com> <473872E2.3040909@caret.cam.ac.uk> Message-ID: On Nov 12, 2007, at 9:53 AM, sheila miguez wrote: > I wanted to do some stuff and ended not using the python that comes > natively on the mac. At this point (if we're talking OS X Tiger), you're using a fairly old version of Python if you're using the stock version -- and the upgrade really isn't that hard given the OS X specific installer on Python.org. Though perhaps that's the root of the different experiences? -t From shekay at pobox.com Mon Nov 12 19:47:16 2007 From: shekay at pobox.com (sheila miguez) Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 12:47:16 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] December's meeting place Message-ID: May Orbitz host December's meeting? -- sheila From milan at andric.us Mon Nov 12 20:58:16 2007 From: milan at andric.us (Milan Andric) Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 13:58:16 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] MacBook Pro In-Reply-To: References: <001f01c824ec$292cc1e0$7402a8c0@IBMUO5W0HB49M3> <200711120947.24698.pfein@pobox.com> <473872E2.3040909@caret.cam.ac.uk> Message-ID: <536089f30711121158m28edeedq8bfc0a3202840dfa@mail.gmail.com> I found it easiest to use macports.org to maintain my development and production python environments on Mac OS X. It's not as fast as a binary package manager, it actually builds the software, so you need to install Xcode (gcc and friends). It's comparable to what you might find on a Linux distro. -- Milan On Nov 12, 2007 10:23 AM, Ted Pollari wrote: > > On Nov 12, 2007, at 9:53 AM, sheila miguez wrote: > > > I wanted to do some stuff and ended not using the python that comes > > natively on the mac. > > > At this point (if we're talking OS X Tiger), you're using a fairly > old version of Python if you're using the stock version -- and the > upgrade really isn't that hard given the OS X specific installer on > Python.org. Though perhaps that's the root of the different > experiences? > > -t > > _______________________________________________ > Chicago mailing list > Chicago at python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago > -- Milan From maney at two14.net Mon Nov 12 22:47:53 2007 From: maney at two14.net (Martin Maney) Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 15:47:53 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] December's meeting place In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20071112214753.GA13078@furrr.two14.net> On Mon, Nov 12, 2007 at 12:47:16PM -0600, sheila miguez wrote: > May Orbitz host December's meeting? It's okay by me, but the real hardcores who actually attend these downtown things may want to know how many pizzas you're good for. :-) -- Allen Funt was one of the great psychologists of the twentieth century. His informal experiments and demonstrations on "Candid Camera" showed us as much about human psychology and its surprising limitations as the work of any academic psychologist. -- Daniel Dennett From shekay at pobox.com Mon Nov 12 23:45:53 2007 From: shekay at pobox.com (sheila miguez) Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 16:45:53 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] December's meeting place In-Reply-To: <20071112214753.GA13078@furrr.two14.net> References: <20071112214753.GA13078@furrr.two14.net> Message-ID: On Nov 12, 2007 3:47 PM, Martin Maney wrote: > On Mon, Nov 12, 2007 at 12:47:16PM -0600, sheila miguez wrote: > > May Orbitz host December's meeting? > > It's okay by me, but the real hardcores who actually attend these > downtown things may want to know how many pizzas you're good for. :-) I am good for enough, how much can you eat? I've gone ahead and reserved the two medium size rooms with a super-twins power form-of large meeting room (with partition fold activation). We've got two projectors in the space and some whiteboard. I'll try to remember to bring my mac adapter thingee in case anyone needs it. -- sheila From cwebber at imagescape.com Mon Nov 12 23:49:33 2007 From: cwebber at imagescape.com (Christopher Allan Webber) Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 16:49:33 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] Talks for next meeting (December 13) Message-ID: <6ysl3bcc5e.fsf@imagepc03.rd.imagescape.com> Might as well start this conversation early, and since I already have a talk I'd like to give, I'm just going to shoot this out there now... I'd like to give a talk next month on an animation system I've been working on in python. It's pretty extensible and easy to use. I'm piecing together the last few components now, but it looks like it'll be more than ready by that time. From carl at personnelware.com Sat Nov 10 00:31:16 2007 From: carl at personnelware.com (Carl Karsten) Date: Fri, 09 Nov 2007 17:31:16 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] Nov 15 Meeting at Ogilvy Transportation Center In-Reply-To: References: <254EA608-4ED0-4F07-B865-8B8ECEAF7C01@mac.com> <640C44CE-ABDA-4A22-88DA-315DB7B65BA0@gmail.com> <4734BE9E.5050102@personnelware.com> Message-ID: <4734EDC4.3080403@personnelware.com> Yay! Thursday, Nov 15, 7:00, floor and room to be announced. Ogilvy Transportation Center 500 W Madison Chicago, IL 60661 RSVP You will need a badge form security the 2nd floor to get to the elevators. Any objections? Carl K sheila miguez wrote: > Okay guys, I got an official go-ahead from work. If it's not too late, > I'd like to invite you all. > > I apologize for the confusion. > > > > On Nov 9, 2007 3:49 PM, sheila miguez wrote: >> I don't want to change anyone's plans at the last minute. Go with Performance. >> >> If security has a meltdown on us, I don't want to strand people. >> >> On Nov 9, 2007 2:10 PM, Carl Karsten wrote: >> >>> Will Performics get pissed if we ditch them? >>> >>> Carl K >>> >>> >>> Chris McAvoy wrote: >>>> We have Performics for sure next Thursday. >>>> >>>> Chris >>>> >>>> >>>> On Nov 9, 2007, at 1:00 PM, sheila miguez wrote: >>>> >>>>> I still have to work it out--they might like more than a weeks notice, >>>>> I don't know. We had a gunman in the building once so I think >>>>> facilities gets antsy about outsiders. >>>>> >>>>> On Nov 9, 2007 12:49 PM, Ted Pollari wrote: >>>>>> On Nov 9, 2007, at 9:50 AM, sheila miguez wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> I work in the Ogilvy Transportation Center, btw. >>>>>> And the meeting will be held on run #359 of the Metra / Union Pacific >>>>>> District North Line, be on time, or ELSE! >>>>>> >>>>>> ;) >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> Chicago mailing list >>>>>> Chicago at python.org >>>>>> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> sheila >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Chicago mailing list >>>>> Chicago at python.org >>>>> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Chicago mailing list >>>> Chicago at python.org >>>> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago >>>> >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Chicago mailing list >>> Chicago at python.org >>> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago >>> >> >> >> -- >> sheila >> > > > From robkapteyn at gmail.com Tue Nov 13 07:23:45 2007 From: robkapteyn at gmail.com (Rob Kapteyn) Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2007 00:23:45 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] Nov 15 Meeting at Ogilvy Transportation Center In-Reply-To: <4734EDC4.3080403@personnelware.com> References: <254EA608-4ED0-4F07-B865-8B8ECEAF7C01@mac.com> <640C44CE-ABDA-4A22-88DA-315DB7B65BA0@gmail.com> <4734BE9E.5050102@personnelware.com> <4734EDC4.3080403@personnelware.com> Message-ID: We appreciate your work Carl, but --- I thought Chris got us Performics already ? His is a nice room, with a projector and screen, where at least two meetings have been held in the past. (it was a bit of a tight fit, but I think we all did get a seat) Does your room (to be announced) come with a projector and/or screen ? Thanks again Rob On Nov 9, 2007, at 5:31 PM, Carl Karsten wrote: > Yay! > > Thursday, Nov 15, 7:00, > floor and room to be announced. > Ogilvy Transportation Center > 500 W Madison > Chicago, IL 60661 > > RSVP > You will need a badge form security the 2nd floor to get to the > elevators. > > Any objections? > > Carl K > > sheila miguez wrote: >> Okay guys, I got an official go-ahead from work. If it's not too >> late, >> I'd like to invite you all. >> >> I apologize for the confusion. >> >> >> >> On Nov 9, 2007 3:49 PM, sheila miguez wrote: >>> I don't want to change anyone's plans at the last minute. Go with >>> Performance. >>> >>> If security has a meltdown on us, I don't want to strand people. >>> >>> On Nov 9, 2007 2:10 PM, Carl Karsten wrote: >>> >>>> Will Performics get pissed if we ditch them? >>>> >>>> Carl K >>>> >>>> >>>> Chris McAvoy wrote: >>>>> We have Performics for sure next Thursday. >>>>> >>>>> Chris >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Nov 9, 2007, at 1:00 PM, sheila miguez wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> I still have to work it out--they might like more than a weeks >>>>>> notice, >>>>>> I don't know. We had a gunman in the building once so I think >>>>>> facilities gets antsy about outsiders. >>>>>> >>>>>> On Nov 9, 2007 12:49 PM, Ted Pollari wrote: >>>>>>> On Nov 9, 2007, at 9:50 AM, sheila miguez wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I work in the Ogilvy Transportation Center, btw. >>>>>>> And the meeting will be held on run #359 of the Metra / Union >>>>>>> Pacific >>>>>>> District North Line, be on time, or ELSE! >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ;) >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> Chicago mailing list >>>>>>> Chicago at python.org >>>>>>> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> sheila >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> Chicago mailing list >>>>>> Chicago at python.org >>>>>> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Chicago mailing list >>>>> Chicago at python.org >>>>> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago >>>>> >>>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Chicago mailing list >>>> Chicago at python.org >>>> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago >>>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> sheila >>> >> >> >> > _______________________________________________ > Chicago mailing list > Chicago at python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago From shekay at pobox.com Tue Nov 13 15:07:48 2007 From: shekay at pobox.com (sheila miguez) Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2007 08:07:48 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] Nov 15 Meeting at Ogilvy Transportation Center In-Reply-To: References: <254EA608-4ED0-4F07-B865-8B8ECEAF7C01@mac.com> <640C44CE-ABDA-4A22-88DA-315DB7B65BA0@gmail.com> <4734BE9E.5050102@personnelware.com> <4734EDC4.3080403@personnelware.com> Message-ID: On Nov 13, 2007 12:23 AM, Rob Kapteyn wrote: > We appreciate your work Carl, but --- > > I thought Chris got us Performics already ? > His is a nice room, with a projector and screen, where at least two > meetings have been held in the past. > (it was a bit of a tight fit, but I think we all did get a seat) > > Does your room (to be announced) come with a projector and/or screen ? > > Thanks again > Rob Nov. 15th meeting is at Performics. Dec. 13th meeting at Orbitz. -- sheila From shekay at pobox.com Tue Nov 13 15:10:03 2007 From: shekay at pobox.com (sheila miguez) Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2007 08:10:03 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] Nov 15th at Performics Re: Nov 15 Meeting at Ogilvy Transportation Center Message-ID: On Nov 9, 2007 5:31 PM, Carl Karsten wrote: > Yay! > > Thursday, Nov 15, 7:00, > floor and room to be announced. > Ogilvy Transportation Center > 500 W Madison > Chicago, IL 60661 > > RSVP > You will need a badge form security the 2nd floor to get to the elevators. > > Any objections? Yes. This is the wrong month for Orbitz. Nov 15th is at Performics. -- sheila From carl at personnelware.com Tue Nov 13 15:36:39 2007 From: carl at personnelware.com (Carl Karsten) Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2007 08:36:39 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] Updated wiki for tomorrow's gathering In-Reply-To: References: <254EA608-4ED0-4F07-B865-8B8ECEAF7C01@mac.com> <640C44CE-ABDA-4A22-88DA-315DB7B65BA0@gmail.com> <4734BE9E.5050102@personnelware.com> Message-ID: <4739B677.1030400@personnelware.com> Scott, Performics is it. post time,address floor, food concerns and update the wiki. I put something up, hope it is right :) Carl K Scott Zibble wrote: > Nope. If you guys want to use the other space to help facilitate that > being a space that can be used more often in the future, by all means, > that's fine. > > I'll be back in Chicago tuesday of next week, too, in case something > happens and we need to switch back to Performics at the last second. > > > > On Nov 9, 2007 2:10 PM, Carl Karsten > wrote: > > Will Performics get pissed if we ditch them? > > Carl K > > Chris McAvoy wrote: > > We have Performics for sure next Thursday. > > > > Chris > > > > > > On Nov 9, 2007, at 1:00 PM, sheila miguez wrote: > > > >> I still have to work it out--they might like more than a weeks > notice, > >> I don't know. We had a gunman in the building once so I think > >> facilities gets antsy about outsiders. > >> > >> On Nov 9, 2007 12:49 PM, Ted Pollari > wrote: > >>> On Nov 9, 2007, at 9:50 AM, sheila miguez wrote: > >>> > >>>> I work in the Ogilvy Transportation Center, btw. > >>> > >>> And the meeting will be held on run #359 of the Metra / Union > Pacific > >>> District North Line, be on time, or ELSE! > >>> > >>> ;) > >>> > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> Chicago mailing list > >>> Chicago at python.org > >>> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago > > >>> > >> > >> > >> -- > >> sheila > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Chicago mailing list > >> Chicago at python.org > >> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Chicago mailing list > > Chicago at python.org > > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Chicago mailing list > Chicago at python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > Chicago mailing list > Chicago at python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago From chris.mcavoy at gmail.com Tue Nov 13 16:44:24 2007 From: chris.mcavoy at gmail.com (Chris McAvoy) Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2007 09:44:24 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] Correction: Nov 15 Meeting at 180 N. Lasalle In-Reply-To: References: <254EA608-4ED0-4F07-B865-8B8ECEAF7C01@mac.com> <640C44CE-ABDA-4A22-88DA-315DB7B65BA0@gmail.com> <4734BE9E.5050102@personnelware.com> <4734EDC4.3080403@personnelware.com> Message-ID: <5DBCED60-C188-4566-829C-658FF195BD75@gmail.com> On Nov 13, 2007, at 12:23 AM, Rob Kapteyn wrote: > We appreciate your work Carl, but --- > > I thought Chris got us Performics already ? I think there was some crossed emails, Carl's came out three days ago. We're on for Performics. An official email will go out in a few minutes. Chris From doug at dougma.com Tue Nov 13 06:23:25 2007 From: doug at dougma.com (Douglas Napoleone) Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2007 00:23:25 -0500 Subject: [Chicago] The PyCon 2008 Program Committee needs your help Message-ID: All, Ivan and I were chatting tonight and we are both concerned that we have not received enough proposals. We will get more over the week, but it will be quite shy of what we would like to see for the friday deadline. I believe the primary reason for this is a lack of advertising. We need your help to get the word out. Blogs/PodCasts: If you have a blog or poscast, please post about the deadline. If you have given a talk in the past, please post about the experience. IRC: I have started making regular announcements in the following irc channels on freenode.net: python django turbogears plone What others should be included? Anyone can make announcements in these channels, the more the better. Mailing lists/user groups: If you are a user group member, please get the word out, and consider having a group meeting dedicated to practice talks. We should make a list of mailing lists and make posts (python-users, django-users, etc.) Local Schools: For those in the Chicago area, please try to contact professors at local colleges and institutions. Undergrads, Grads, and especially Doctorate students are a prime source of interesting presentations. Focusing on local schools has a greater ROE, as students do not have much cash for travel. Anything else you can think of. We need to do a grass roots blitz to get the word out to the greater community. Anything you can do to help will be greatly appreciated. It does not take any special knowledge or skills to give a presentation. Even the most basic users can present on something, and we like these types of beginner proposals. The call for proposals contains more details: http://us.pycon.org/2008/conference/proposals/ -Doug Napoleone -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mail.python.org/pipermail/chicago/attachments/20071113/d619ed64/attachment.htm From carl at personnelware.com Tue Nov 13 16:47:50 2007 From: carl at personnelware.com (Carl Karsten) Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2007 09:47:50 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] PyCon looking for basic Python talks Message-ID: <4739C726.3000004@personnelware.com> Now is the time to submit a PyCon proposal, or three. I would really like to see various angles on general Python, both tutorials and talks (which should be scheduled first thing Friday. maybe even Thursday evening too. both for programmers and an "intro to programming tutorial" (tutorial so we can drop it if it isn't going to fly.) Maybe even stuff that into Wednesday for the django tutorial attendees that need to learn Python (common django support problem.) Here are some specifics. Basic Python - a subset of the core language elements. Cover the import command, but don't cover any modules. scope, lists vs tuple... that stuff, but don't cover lambda and other things that would make someones head explode. Python for Java programmers (Hello Mark!) Under the hood of Python - or what ever you want to call the interaction between = and __eq__() and all the other things listed here: http://docs.python.org/ref/customization.html Python's Dark Magic - the pros and cons of messing with __magic__() There are lots of programmers in Chicago that don't know Python, so many of them won't bother going to a python conference. Some will will come anyway and walk away still not knowing python. I don't expect anyone to make them an expert, but I think a quick run through of the basics can do a lot. If you have an idea, but don't think you can actually do a talk, add your idea to http://us.pycon.org/2008/conference/CorePython and maybe someone else will do the talk. If you are inspired to talk for 30 min or so: http://us.pycon.org/2008/conference/proposals/ Or if you want to go on for hours: "Tutorial presenters will receive $1000 per tutorial, plus free conference registration." http://us.pycon.org/2008/tutorials/proposals Please pass this on to anyone you know who might be interested, or who might pass this on. And post it to your favorite mail list. Kinda like those annoying chain letters, so sing the spam song - it will make you feel better. Carl Karsten From sgithens at caret.cam.ac.uk Tue Nov 13 17:36:21 2007 From: sgithens at caret.cam.ac.uk (swg) Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2007 10:36:21 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] MacBook Pro In-Reply-To: <288069FC-DD1C-428B-A927-6830797D1CF3@mac.com> References: <001f01c824ec$292cc1e0$7402a8c0@IBMUO5W0HB49M3> <200711120947.24698.pfein@pobox.com> <473872E2.3040909@caret.cam.ac.uk> <288069FC-DD1C-428B-A927-6830797D1CF3@mac.com> Message-ID: <4739D285.70100@caret.cam.ac.uk> Ted Pollari wrote: > On Nov 12, 2007, at 9:36 AM, swg wrote: > > >> I'm guessing folks here don't have this problem (since everyone is a >> python hacker and there seem to be a fair number of Apple Notebooks at >> meetings), but most folks I know (including myself) have a real hard >> time getting extra modules and anything that's not OOTB installed and >> working on OS X. >> > > > Really? Despite how much I b.s. on list, I don't consider myself a > real hardcore python hacker (though I guess I'd say I'm a pretty > savvy OS X user/admin) and I haven't really had any major issues with > Python and OS X. What sort of issues have you run into? > > Well, a lot of times it comes down to stuff with C libraries. We use Python a lot to connect to SOAP stuff, so SOAPpy is always the first thing we run in to, which requires tracking down that floating point library and so on and so forth. This usually leads to the person realizing gcc isn't installed and then we spend a good portion of time trying to track down the OS X CD that came with the machine, etc etc. Also, the ActiveState thing where they couldn't (or still can't) use the gnu readline for the Python terminal always sucked up an hour or two of the day to get working. After this, and several more cases of trying to track down C libraries, I just stopped doing Python stuff on OS X ( I usually use Linux anyways, if I used OS X for more than testing Safari, I probably would have put more time into it ) I mean, it's not a huge deal, but it's the difference between spending an hour or two, or a couple minutes. It's a little ironic, since when I was in college I thought using Linux was cool because you had to compile everything, and now I use it mostly out of sheer laziness since typing apt-get is so easy and has yet to give me any problems. We try fink occasionally, but it always seem to give us some type of problem. -Steve ( Hopefully I put enough Python stuff in this message for the list, I'm *honestly* not trying to start on OS debate :) ) From robkapteyn at gmail.com Tue Nov 13 17:56:58 2007 From: robkapteyn at gmail.com (Rob Kapteyn) Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2007 10:56:58 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] Correction: Nov 15 Meeting at 180 N. Lasalle In-Reply-To: <5DBCED60-C188-4566-829C-658FF195BD75@gmail.com> References: <254EA608-4ED0-4F07-B865-8B8ECEAF7C01@mac.com> <640C44CE-ABDA-4A22-88DA-315DB7B65BA0@gmail.com> <4734BE9E.5050102@personnelware.com> <4734EDC4.3080403@personnelware.com> <5DBCED60-C188-4566-829C-658FF195BD75@gmail.com> Message-ID: Sorry. My email from this list is really strange. It gets delayed (sometimes), I miss some, and I don't always get my own messages sent back to me. Anyone else seeing this ? -Rob Either the mailing list, or On Nov 13, 2007, at 9:44 AM, Chris McAvoy wrote: > > On Nov 13, 2007, at 12:23 AM, Rob Kapteyn wrote: > >> We appreciate your work Carl, but --- >> >> I thought Chris got us Performics already ? > > I think there was some crossed emails, Carl's came out three days ago. > > We're on for Performics. An official email will go out in a few > minutes. > > Chris > _______________________________________________ > Chicago mailing list > Chicago at python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago From kumar.mcmillan at gmail.com Tue Nov 13 18:01:19 2007 From: kumar.mcmillan at gmail.com (Kumar McMillan) Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2007 11:01:19 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] Lightning talk topics? Message-ID: Chris mentioned it would be a good idea to open up the floor to lightning talks for the meeting on Thursday. Here's mine: Google's Open Social API - What the heck is it? - An example application running in the Orkut sandbox - What does it mean for the future of the web? (this really will be "lightning" quick since I don't have much) _ Any others? From tcp at mac.com Tue Nov 13 18:22:55 2007 From: tcp at mac.com (Ted Pollari) Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2007 11:22:55 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] MacBook Pro In-Reply-To: <4739D285.70100@caret.cam.ac.uk> References: <001f01c824ec$292cc1e0$7402a8c0@IBMUO5W0HB49M3> <200711120947.24698.pfein@pobox.com> <473872E2.3040909@caret.cam.ac.uk> <288069FC-DD1C-428B-A927-6830797D1CF3@mac.com> <4739D285.70100@caret.cam.ac.uk> Message-ID: <497C0A8E-3EEA-4B28-9CCD-CB2623AF548E@mac.com> On Nov 13, 2007, at 10:36 AM, swg wrote: > This usually leads to the person > realizing gcc isn't installed and then we spend a good portion of time > trying to track down the OS X CD that came with the machine, etc etc. > You'd be much better off just pulling a copy of the developer tools off Apple's developer website in this case -- plus, it'd be up to date vs. the old/stale version of the dev. tools from the OS install. It's a big download, but if you're wasting a lot of time finding the OS install, this option may well be more efficient. > Also, the ActiveState thing where they couldn't (or still can't) > use the > gnu readline for the Python terminal always sucked up an hour or > two of > the day to get working. If you're looking to use one of the more recent versions of Python, simply pulling the OS X .dmg based installer from python.org will give you readline support, if I'm not mistaken... > After this, and several more cases of trying to > track down C libraries, I just stopped doing Python stuff on OS X ( I > usually use Linux anyways, if I used OS X for more than testing > Safari, > I probably would have put more time into it ) Hmm -- I must say, that all just sounds like the experience I had 3 years ago working with Python on OS X, but not my recent experiences. -t From sgithens at caret.cam.ac.uk Tue Nov 13 18:35:32 2007 From: sgithens at caret.cam.ac.uk (swg) Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2007 11:35:32 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] MacBook Pro In-Reply-To: <497C0A8E-3EEA-4B28-9CCD-CB2623AF548E@mac.com> References: <001f01c824ec$292cc1e0$7402a8c0@IBMUO5W0HB49M3> <200711120947.24698.pfein@pobox.com> <473872E2.3040909@caret.cam.ac.uk> <288069FC-DD1C-428B-A927-6830797D1CF3@mac.com> <4739D285.70100@caret.cam.ac.uk> <497C0A8E-3EEA-4B28-9CCD-CB2623AF548E@mac.com> Message-ID: <4739E064.50709@caret.cam.ac.uk> Ted Pollari wrote: >> Also, the ActiveState thing where they couldn't (or still can't) >> use the >> gnu readline for the Python terminal always sucked up an hour or >> two of >> the day to get working. >> > > If you're looking to use one of the more recent versions of Python, > simply pulling the OS X .dmg based installer from python.org will > give you readline support, if I'm not mistaken... > > > I'll definately try that the next time around. >> After this, and several more cases of trying to >> track down C libraries, I just stopped doing Python stuff on OS X ( I >> usually use Linux anyways, if I used OS X for more than testing >> Safari, >> I probably would have put more time into it ) >> > > Hmm -- I must say, that all just sounds like the experience I had 3 > years ago working with Python on OS X, but not my recent experiences. > > -t > Cool, it's definately been a while since I've done much OS X/Python'ing, but I'm glad to hear that the Python Distro's for it whipping up into Shape. Speaking of alternative platforms, has anyone tried the Python support in OpenOffice lately? I spent a couple days with it about a ago, and while it was kind of rough around the edges, it was still pretty awesome to script my Spreadsheet in Python instead of VB or OpenOffice Basic. I have to make some moderately complicated spreadsheets soon, so I'm hoping to give it another whirl ( to do actual work, rather than just fiddle around :) ) -s From hsu.feihong at yahoo.com Tue Nov 13 19:00:43 2007 From: hsu.feihong at yahoo.com (Feihong Hsu) Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2007 10:00:43 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Chicago] Help with PyCon Talk Proposals Message-ID: <969638.86847.qm@web34813.mail.mud.yahoo.com> I'm very interested in doing a talk for PyCon, but I don't have the confidence that I could actually do one myself. It's not that I'm uncomfortable speaking to a crowd, it's simply that I need someone else to push me forward or else I'll procrastinate too much. That said, I will list a few topics that I feel I'm qualified to talk about. If anyone else is interested in helping me out, let me know and we can discuss the details off-list. - Python for C# programmers - Integrating Python with .NET (and Mono) - Getting Started with wxPython - Fun with Function Frames, Metaclasses, __getitem__ and Decorators OK, there are some comments I need to make on that last one. It's still somewhat ill-defined in my mind, but I'm doing a lot of stuff with function frames and metaclasses right now so if there's someone else who's familiar with all that sort of thing then I think that putting our minds together we could come up with some more use cases. The gist of the talk would be writing a lot of code upfront so that you (and other programmers) can write tiny chunks of declarative-looking code later. Also, if someone else is doing a talk/tutorial on basic Python, I might be persuaded into helping out with that. - Feihong --------------------------------- Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mail.python.org/pipermail/chicago/attachments/20071113/14fe3f65/attachment.htm From carl at personnelware.com Tue Nov 13 19:28:34 2007 From: carl at personnelware.com (Carl Karsten) Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2007 12:28:34 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] Help with PyCon Talk Proposals In-Reply-To: <969638.86847.qm@web34813.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <969638.86847.qm@web34813.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4739ECD2.5020004@personnelware.com> Feihong Hsu wrote: - Python for C# programmers Excellent idea, I wish there was some way to gauge interest. I am guessing you are involved in the C# community - how may people do you know that would come see it? > - Integrating Python with .NET (and Mono) > - Getting Started with wxPython > - Fun with Function Frames, Metaclasses, __getitem__ and Decorators These would make great Chipy talks. Which is a great way to practice for PyCon. Here is a push: http://us.pycon.org/2008/conference/proposals/ Whip up an outline. It is just for the reviewers - you will have time to submit something more 'clean' once your talk(s) get picked. > Also, if someone else is doing a talk/tutorial on basic Python, I might > be persuaded into helping out with that. $1000 if you do it all yourself... http://us.pycon.org/2008/tutorials/proposals/ In case it wasn't clear in my other post, I think there is a need for some 45 min sessions about just Python. http://wiki.python.org/moin/Core%20Python Carl K From chris.mcavoy at gmail.com Tue Nov 13 19:55:29 2007 From: chris.mcavoy at gmail.com (Chris McAvoy) Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2007 12:55:29 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] ChiPy Meeting Thursday Nov 15th, 7pm RSVP Necessary! Message-ID: Chicago Python User Group ========================= Come join us for our best meeting ever! Please RSVP to chris.mcavoy at gmail.com with a subject line of "RSVP Chipy" by Wednesday at 6pm. Topic ------ * Lightning Talks! Bring your best 5 - 10 minute presentation ideas. This is great preparation for PyCon 2008, find out if people think your idea is a good one. Lightning talk meetings are generally considered to be our best meetings, as everyone gets to participate. A projector is provided, but internet connectivity is questionable. Please bring your presentation on a usb key or laptop. Live presentations (meaning, no slides) are a-ok. Location -------- Performics 180 N. Lasalle Chicago, IL About ChiPy ----------- ChiPy is a group of Chicago Python Programmers, l33t, and n00bs. Meetings are held monthly at various locations around Chicago. Also, ChiPy is a proud sponsor of many Open Source and Educational efforts in Chicago. Stay tuned to the mailing list for more info. ChiPy website: ChiPy Mailing List: Python website: From chris.mcavoy at gmail.com Tue Nov 13 20:40:29 2007 From: chris.mcavoy at gmail.com (Chris McAvoy) Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2007 13:40:29 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] Help with PyCon Talk Proposals In-Reply-To: <969638.86847.qm@web34813.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <969638.86847.qm@web34813.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <3096c19d0711131140y34730834lfb2918178ac895a7@mail.gmail.com> On Nov 13, 2007 12:00 PM, Feihong Hsu wrote: > I'm very interested in doing a talk for PyCon, but I don't have the > confidence that I could actually do one myself. It's not that I'm > uncomfortable speaking to a crowd, it's simply that I need someone else to > push me forward or else I'll procrastinate too much. That said, I will list > a few topics that I feel I'm qualified to talk about. If anyone else is > interested in helping me out, let me know and we can discuss the details > off-list. > > - Python for C# programmers --. although it's a good idea in general, I'm not sure it would be good for Pycon, as most Pycon attendees are already Python programmers. > - Integrating Python with .NET (and Mono) ++ > - Getting Started with wxPython ++ > - Fun with Function Frames, Metaclasses, __getitem__ and Decorators ++ I agree with Carl, you should try one of these out this Thursday as a lightning talk. Also, did you ever end up getting Python to work with XNA? That could be pretty cool. Chris From tcp at mac.com Tue Nov 13 21:05:07 2007 From: tcp at mac.com (Ted Pollari) Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2007 14:05:07 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] Help with PyCon Talk Proposals In-Reply-To: <3096c19d0711131140y34730834lfb2918178ac895a7@mail.gmail.com> References: <969638.86847.qm@web34813.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <3096c19d0711131140y34730834lfb2918178ac895a7@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Nov 13, 2007, at 1:40 PM, Chris McAvoy wrote: > > --. although it's a good idea in general, I'm not sure it would be > good for Pycon, as most Pycon attendees are already Python > programmers. I completely disagree! I think you're as likely to see people from the Chicago tech sector significant with C# experience and only modest python experience... if they see a talk like Feihong described above as they're contemplating registering, they may be more inclined to coming or talking their boss into sending them. Making it the topic for a tutorial would be even better in this regard... IMHO, of course... -ted From chris.mcavoy at gmail.com Tue Nov 13 21:11:54 2007 From: chris.mcavoy at gmail.com (Chris McAvoy) Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2007 14:11:54 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] Help with PyCon Talk Proposals In-Reply-To: References: <969638.86847.qm@web34813.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <3096c19d0711131140y34730834lfb2918178ac895a7@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <3096c19d0711131211q630b76bl882d8d641c240a0@mail.gmail.com> On Nov 13, 2007 2:05 PM, Ted Pollari wrote: > > On Nov 13, 2007, at 1:40 PM, Chris McAvoy wrote: > > > > > --. although it's a good idea in general, I'm not sure it would be > > good for Pycon, as most Pycon attendees are already Python > > programmers. > > > I completely disagree! I think you're as likely to see people from > the Chicago tech sector significant with C# experience and only > modest python experience... if they see a talk like Feihong described > above as they're contemplating registering, they may be more inclined > to coming or talking their boss into sending them. Making it the > topic for a tutorial would be even better in this regard... IMHO, of > course... > Hmmm. I don't know if I'd trust this Ted Pollari character. Does he even live in Chicago? That's a good point. I'll give it one +. Two +'s is out of the question. Chris From tcp at mac.com Tue Nov 13 21:29:32 2007 From: tcp at mac.com (Ted Pollari) Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2007 14:29:32 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] Help with PyCon Talk Proposals In-Reply-To: <3096c19d0711131211q630b76bl882d8d641c240a0@mail.gmail.com> References: <969638.86847.qm@web34813.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <3096c19d0711131140y34730834lfb2918178ac895a7@mail.gmail.com> <3096c19d0711131211q630b76bl882d8d641c240a0@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <5B878F14-A405-4FC4-8F0D-1E2E70D9C96F@mac.com> On Nov 13, 2007, at 2:11 PM, Chris McAvoy wrote: > I don't know if I'd trust this Ted Pollari character. Does he even > live in Chicago? I am, in fact, in my office in Chicago and have been all day! =P > I'll give it one +. > > Two +'s is out of the question. yeah, it ranks as a single + for me as a talk and a ++ as a tutorial proposal...oh, and remember, you get paid for the half day tutorials... =) -ted From kumar.mcmillan at gmail.com Tue Nov 13 21:32:48 2007 From: kumar.mcmillan at gmail.com (Kumar McMillan) Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2007 14:32:48 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] Help with PyCon Talk Proposals In-Reply-To: <969638.86847.qm@web34813.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <969638.86847.qm@web34813.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: I have a hard time gauging what the range of Python users are at Pycon. My "gut" from last year tells me there are more beginner-level Python programmers then there are advanced ones. But that is not based by any factual evidence. I'm sure there are stats on this somewhere. On Nov 13, 2007 12:00 PM, Feihong Hsu wrote: > - Python for C# programmers given the above, this may be a strong talk to give. It certainly seems like a talk that Pycon needs right now (from Carl's emails and the Pycon wiki). > - Integrating Python with .NET (and Mono) I think this may also be strong, although not as strong as Python for C# programmers. Although I can't decide. There were some talks last year on .NET but none like Python for C# Programmers (I think) > - Getting Started with wxPython -1 on this. There are so many damn GUI frameworks and there were about 3 talks last year focusing on a framework (possibly more than I can't think of right now) > - Fun with Function Frames, Metaclasses, __getitem__ and Decorators This would be a very cool talk to see :) And would be very interesting for intermediate/advanced users. I think it would be popular. But, again, if you can find some stats on attendance that would be a better way to judge. _ Try one as a lightning talk! Also, you may want to submit two outlines and let the judges decide. That's probably the best way to approach it. From chris.mcavoy at gmail.com Tue Nov 13 21:43:33 2007 From: chris.mcavoy at gmail.com (Chris McAvoy) Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2007 14:43:33 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] Help with PyCon Talk Proposals In-Reply-To: References: <969638.86847.qm@web34813.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <3096c19d0711131243u34689da9mb9305cd95071e81d@mail.gmail.com> As a total aside, you're also a really fun speaker Feihong. Remember that Unicode talk? You should consider submitting a Unicode talk. Last year, there was only one (that I know of) and it was standing room only. Unicode is something everyone needs to deal with at some point, but few really want to do a deep dive. Chris On Nov 13, 2007 2:32 PM, Kumar McMillan wrote: > I have a hard time gauging what the range of Python users are at > Pycon. My "gut" from last year tells me there are more beginner-level > Python programmers then there are advanced ones. But that is not > based by any factual evidence. I'm sure there are stats on this > somewhere. > > On Nov 13, 2007 12:00 PM, Feihong Hsu wrote: > > - Python for C# programmers > > given the above, this may be a strong talk to give. It certainly > seems like a talk that Pycon needs right now (from Carl's emails and > the Pycon wiki). > > > - Integrating Python with .NET (and Mono) > > I think this may also be strong, although not as strong as Python for > C# programmers. Although I can't decide. There were some talks last > year on .NET but none like Python for C# Programmers (I think) > > > - Getting Started with wxPython > > -1 on this. There are so many damn GUI frameworks and there were > about 3 talks last year focusing on a framework (possibly more than I > can't think of right now) > > > - Fun with Function Frames, Metaclasses, __getitem__ and Decorators > > This would be a very cool talk to see :) And would be very > interesting for intermediate/advanced users. I think it would be > popular. But, again, if you can find some stats on attendance that > would be a better way to judge. > > _ > > Try one as a lightning talk! Also, you may want to submit two > outlines and let the judges decide. That's probably the best way to > approach it. > > _______________________________________________ > Chicago mailing list > Chicago at python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago > From kumar.mcmillan at gmail.com Tue Nov 13 21:55:27 2007 From: kumar.mcmillan at gmail.com (Kumar McMillan) Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2007 14:55:27 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] Help with PyCon Talk Proposals In-Reply-To: <3096c19d0711131243u34689da9mb9305cd95071e81d@mail.gmail.com> References: <969638.86847.qm@web34813.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <3096c19d0711131243u34689da9mb9305cd95071e81d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Nov 13, 2007 2:43 PM, Chris McAvoy wrote: > As a total aside, you're also a really fun speaker Feihong. Remember > that Unicode talk? > > You should consider submitting a Unicode talk. Last year, there was > only one (that I know of) and it was standing room only. Unicode is > something everyone needs to deal with at some point, but few really > want to do a deep dive. last Pycon's unicode talk wasn't very good at all. I actually walked away from it more confused. But it was very popular because unicode is easily *the* most annoying thing about Python and the hardest thing to wrap ones head around. However, something to consider is that unicode will change so drastically in python 3 so I'm not sure how relevant a talk will be. It will be more relevant at this Pycon than 2009 Pycon, that's for sure! Kumar From garrett at mojave-corp.com Tue Nov 13 21:50:09 2007 From: garrett at mojave-corp.com (Garrett Smith) Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2007 15:50:09 -0500 Subject: [Chicago] Help with PyCon Talk Proposals References: <969638.86847.qm@web34813.mail.mud.yahoo.com><3096c19d0711131140y34730834lfb2918178ac895a7@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <96EE4D50AA53D143A3E2F30F61401903033F15@justexch-node02.justexchange.net> What about C# for Python developers? Or...better yet...Java for Python developers! -----Original Message----- From: chicago-bounces at python.org on behalf of Ted Pollari Sent: Tue 11/13/2007 3:05 PM To: The Chicago Python Users Group Subject: Re: [Chicago] Help with PyCon Talk Proposals On Nov 13, 2007, at 1:40 PM, Chris McAvoy wrote: > > --. although it's a good idea in general, I'm not sure it would be > good for Pycon, as most Pycon attendees are already Python > programmers. I completely disagree! I think you're as likely to see people from the Chicago tech sector significant with C# experience and only modest python experience... if they see a talk like Feihong described above as they're contemplating registering, they may be more inclined to coming or talking their boss into sending them. Making it the topic for a tutorial would be even better in this regard... IMHO, of course... -ted _______________________________________________ Chicago mailing list Chicago at python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/ms-tnef Size: 3221 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://mail.python.org/pipermail/chicago/attachments/20071113/f9496039/attachment.bin From tottinge at gmail.com Tue Nov 13 22:33:45 2007 From: tottinge at gmail.com (Tim Ottinger) Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2007 15:33:45 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] Help with PyCon Talk Proposals In-Reply-To: <96EE4D50AA53D143A3E2F30F61401903033F15@justexch-node02.justexchange.net> References: <969638.86847.qm@web34813.mail.mud.yahoo.com><3096c19d0711131140y34730834lfb2918178ac895a7@mail.gmail.com> <96EE4D50AA53D143A3E2F30F61401903033F15@justexch-node02.justexchange.net> Message-ID: <473A1839.5090105@gmail.com> Garrett Smith wrote: > What about C# for Python developers? Or...better yet...Java for Python developers! > > > Ewww. Having become a python developer before ever trying java or C#, I can tell you that's no way to go. You miss too much, and have to start inventing Python in other languages (until you stop yourself, breathe deeply, and swallow hard on the koolaid). Tim From purplehayz at earthlink.net Tue Nov 13 22:54:45 2007 From: purplehayz at earthlink.net (Bob Hays) Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2007 15:54:45 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] Help with PyCon Talk Proposals In-Reply-To: <473A1839.5090105@gmail.com> Message-ID: Er, Jython would be one reason to look at Java for Python programmers. And there are some potential advantages in some systems for using Jython.... Have fun! - Bob On 11,13,07 3:33 PM, "Tim Ottinger" wrote: > Garrett Smith wrote: >> What about C# for Python developers? Or...better yet...Java for Python >> developers! >> >> >> > Ewww. Having become a python developer before ever trying java or C#, I > can tell you that's no way to go. > You miss too much, and have to start inventing Python in other languages > (until you stop yourself, breathe deeply, and swallow hard on the koolaid). > > Tim > _______________________________________________ > Chicago mailing list > Chicago at python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago -- Bob Hays (773) 794-2055 (H) (773) 266-HAYS (C) purplehayz at earthlink.net http://www.alephnaught.com "In preparing for battle I have always found that plans are useless, but planning is indispensible." -- Dwight D. Eisenhower From shekay at pobox.com Wed Nov 14 00:11:04 2007 From: shekay at pobox.com (sheila miguez) Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2007 17:11:04 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] Help with PyCon Talk Proposals In-Reply-To: References: <473A1839.5090105@gmail.com> Message-ID: I would like to hear more about spring + jython. You can spring wire python scripts into your application (along with jRuby, groovy, bsh). I don't know if this would be a good subject for PyCon. I think no. Also, there is some guy online (I found just by searching for python and aspect oriented programming) who is trying to write Spring for Python. I have no idea how mature that is, or if he'd want to give a talk on it. This might be better for PyCon. Or, finding talks on aop and python. On Nov 13, 2007 3:54 PM, Bob Hays wrote: > Er, Jython would be one reason to look at Java for Python programmers. And > there are some potential advantages in some systems for using Jython.... > > Have fun! - Bob > > > > On 11,13,07 3:33 PM, "Tim Ottinger" wrote: > > > Garrett Smith wrote: > >> What about C# for Python developers? Or...better yet...Java for Python > >> developers! > >> > >> > >> > > Ewww. Having become a python developer before ever trying java or C#, I > > can tell you that's no way to go. > > You miss too much, and have to start inventing Python in other languages > > (until you stop yourself, breathe deeply, and swallow hard on the koolaid). > > > > Tim > > _______________________________________________ > > Chicago mailing list > > Chicago at python.org > > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago > > -- > Bob Hays > (773) 794-2055 (H) > (773) 266-HAYS (C) > purplehayz at earthlink.net > http://www.alephnaught.com > > "In preparing for battle I have always found that plans are useless, but > planning is indispensible." > -- Dwight D. Eisenhower > > > > _______________________________________________ > Chicago mailing list > Chicago at python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago > -- sheila From harper.sean at gmail.com Wed Nov 14 00:09:21 2007 From: harper.sean at gmail.com (Sean Harper) Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2007 17:09:21 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] Ignite Chicago - call for speakers Message-ID: <11ad307a0711131509y2f5dbe38n207b75373feeae04@mail.gmail.com> If you had five minutes on stage what would you say? What if you only got 20 slides and they rotated automatically after 15 seconds? A few members of the community have gotten together to organize an Ignite event here in Chicago at Goose Island Wrigleyville 6pm on Thursday 12/6/2007. There have been several Ignite conferences already on the East and West coasts, but if our initial speaker list is any indication, ours in Chicago will be the best yet. Everyone is invited to attend, those with interesting-sounding topics are invited to speak. For more information check out these three sites: RSVP / map / address : http://upcoming.yahoo.com/event/309951 (the event is free and there are sponsored drinks) More information about Ignite Chicago: http://ignite-chicago.org/ More information about Ignite in general: http://ignite.oreilly.com/ Sorry for the spam, but hopefully this is relevant enough to the list that nobody will get upset. This really will be a fun event. Sean From skip at pobox.com Wed Nov 14 03:05:43 2007 From: skip at pobox.com (skip at pobox.com) Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2007 20:05:43 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] Help with PyCon Talk Proposals In-Reply-To: References: <969638.86847.qm@web34813.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <3096c19d0711131140y34730834lfb2918178ac895a7@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <18234.22519.121640.886866@montanaro.dyndns.org> Chris> --. although it's a good idea in general, I'm not sure it would Chris> be good for Pycon, as most Pycon attendees are already Python Chris> programmers. Ted> I completely disagree! I think you're as likely to see people from Ted> the Chicago tech sector significant with C# experience and only Ted> modest python experience... How about a C# for Python programmers tutorial? (ducks) Skip From carl at personnelware.com Wed Nov 14 05:25:11 2007 From: carl at personnelware.com (Carl Karsten) Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2007 22:25:11 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] survey: have you ever been sent to training Message-ID: <473A78A7.509@personnelware.com> I am wondering how often people go to a conference that are new to the conference is about. This will help get a feel for how most most is in: "as most Pycon attendees are already Python programmers." I am sure than over 50% know python. probably even 80%. But given the number of "I don't know python" issues that come with django, I would not be surprised if 10% of the attendees show up at PyCon to learn Python. Especially if it is advertised that there will be some sessions where someone can "Learn Python." Back in the 1900's, the PHB I worked for decided Delphi was the way to go. So we spent a few days being taught Delphi. I think if there had been a Delphi conference, good chance we would have been sent, even before our training. So, how crazy would it be to try to squeeze into PyCon a Basic Python session or Tutorial? Carl K From hsu.feihong at yahoo.com Wed Nov 14 05:37:16 2007 From: hsu.feihong at yahoo.com (Feihong Hsu) Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2007 20:37:16 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Chicago] Help with PyCon Talk Proposals In-Reply-To: <3096c19d0711131140y34730834lfb2918178ac895a7@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <676794.40913.qm@web34815.mail.mud.yahoo.com> I pretty much gave up on XNA. There are a lot of good things about it, but not so much for Python programmers. Python games for XNA only work on Windows; because XBoxes don't ship with the full .NET API, you can't run your game on an XBox. I think pyglet and pygame are probably still the way to go for Python programmers interested in making games. And there is a new pygame book out, so there's some good starting points for beginners. - Feihong Chris McAvoy wrote: On Nov 13, 2007 12:00 PM, Feihong Hsu wrote: > I'm very interested in doing a talk for PyCon, but I don't have the > confidence that I could actually do one myself. It's not that I'm > uncomfortable speaking to a crowd, it's simply that I need someone else to > push me forward or else I'll procrastinate too much. That said, I will list > a few topics that I feel I'm qualified to talk about. If anyone else is > interested in helping me out, let me know and we can discuss the details > off-list. > > - Python for C# programmers --. although it's a good idea in general, I'm not sure it would be good for Pycon, as most Pycon attendees are already Python programmers. > - Integrating Python with .NET (and Mono) ++ > - Getting Started with wxPython ++ > - Fun with Function Frames, Metaclasses, __getitem__ and Decorators ++ I agree with Carl, you should try one of these out this Thursday as a lightning talk. Also, did you ever end up getting Python to work with XNA? That could be pretty cool. Chris _______________________________________________ Chicago mailing list Chicago at python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago --------------------------------- Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mail.python.org/pipermail/chicago/attachments/20071113/8542169f/attachment.htm From hsu.feihong at yahoo.com Wed Nov 14 06:02:27 2007 From: hsu.feihong at yahoo.com (Feihong Hsu) Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2007 21:02:27 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Chicago] Help with PyCon Talk Proposals In-Reply-To: <3096c19d0711131211q630b76bl882d8d641c240a0@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <789024.19488.qm@web34802.mail.mud.yahoo.com> I suggested "Python for C# programmers" because I am part of the C# community, and have a good understanding of how C# syntax and concepts map to Python. However, I didn't come directly from C# to Python, my language progression has been C++ -> Java -> Smalltalk -> Python -> C#. I don't know if there have been any "Python for Java programmers", if so then there is some precedent for this talk. The problem as I see it is that I honestly can't imagine many of my coworkers coming to PyCon. Sure, I talked 13 of them into a full-day Python tutorial (thanks, David Beazley!), and they liked it well enough, but they might stop short of attending a conference about it. But I do think that C# programmers will be an ever-increasing source of new Python programmers, because of how hard Microsoft is pushing IronPython. Also, C# programmers definitely care about integrating between Python and C#, they would be unwilling to just go whole-hog Python. This year in particular has seen a lot of progress in terms of CPython integration with both .NET and Mono. IMO, the choices for integration between Python and C# are much better than Python and Java (it doesn't help Java's case that Jython still hasn't caught up to Python 2.4 yet). There are a lot more ways to sell Python to C# programmers than this time last year. To summarize, I think there's not a lot of interest coming from people in my own company, but maybe the topic is timely, given recent advances. It would help me to know if anybody else has an opinion on the amount of interest this talk might garner. - Feihong Chris McAvoy wrote: On Nov 13, 2007 2:05 PM, Ted Pollari wrote: > > On Nov 13, 2007, at 1:40 PM, Chris McAvoy wrote: > > > > > --. although it's a good idea in general, I'm not sure it would be > > good for Pycon, as most Pycon attendees are already Python > > programmers. > > > I completely disagree! I think you're as likely to see people from > the Chicago tech sector significant with C# experience and only > modest python experience... if they see a talk like Feihong described > above as they're contemplating registering, they may be more inclined > to coming or talking their boss into sending them. Making it the > topic for a tutorial would be even better in this regard... IMHO, of > course... > Hmmm. I don't know if I'd trust this Ted Pollari character. Does he even live in Chicago? That's a good point. I'll give it one +. Two +'s is out of the question. Chris _______________________________________________ Chicago mailing list Chicago at python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago --------------------------------- Be a better pen pal. Text or chat with friends inside Yahoo! Mail. See how. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mail.python.org/pipermail/chicago/attachments/20071113/3bcf3178/attachment.htm From ianb at colorstudy.com Wed Nov 14 06:09:55 2007 From: ianb at colorstudy.com (Ian Bicking) Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2007 23:09:55 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] Help with PyCon Talk Proposals In-Reply-To: <18234.22519.121640.886866@montanaro.dyndns.org> References: <969638.86847.qm@web34813.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <3096c19d0711131140y34730834lfb2918178ac895a7@mail.gmail.com> <18234.22519.121640.886866@montanaro.dyndns.org> Message-ID: <473A8323.1070501@colorstudy.com> skip at pobox.com wrote: > Chris> --. although it's a good idea in general, I'm not sure it would > Chris> be good for Pycon, as most Pycon attendees are already Python > Chris> programmers. > > Ted> I completely disagree! I think you're as likely to see people from > Ted> the Chicago tech sector significant with C# experience and only > Ted> modest python experience... > > How about a C# for Python programmers tutorial? (ducks) More seriously, I think Javascript for Python programmers (especially Javascript OO) would be a really great presentation. -- Ian Bicking : ianb at colorstudy.com : http://blog.ianbicking.org From hsu.feihong at yahoo.com Wed Nov 14 06:22:18 2007 From: hsu.feihong at yahoo.com (Feihong Hsu) Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2007 21:22:18 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Chicago] Help with PyCon Talk Proposals In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <838959.25829.qm@web34802.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Last year's PyCon had a talk on IronPython. It was given by Jim Hugunin, and was really informative and had great demos. But IronPython has moved forward a lot in the past year, in particular IronPython classes are now treated as actual .NET classes. Also, CPython supports Python 2.5 and .NET 2.0, and is now mostly API-compatible with IronPython. In a way, a Python/.NET integration talk might be a better choice than "Python for C# programmers" because this would directly target C# programmers who have already decided to learn Python, but who don't yet understand all the snags that result from the differences between the two platforms. Again, I'm not sure about how many people could really be interested in this. There's also a different approach to go with this talk too, it could also focus on how .NET can be used by Python programmers to handle things that are weak spots for Python (handwriting recognition, speech recognition, speech synthesis, scanner/camera integration, and OCR are just run-of-the-mill libraries in .NET). But yeah, just because they exist and they're easy to use doesn't mean I use them all that much. - Feihong Kumar McMillan wrote: I have a hard time gauging what the range of Python users are at Pycon. My "gut" from last year tells me there are more beginner-level Python programmers then there are advanced ones. But that is not based by any factual evidence. I'm sure there are stats on this somewhere. On Nov 13, 2007 12:00 PM, Feihong Hsu wrote: > - Python for C# programmers given the above, this may be a strong talk to give. It certainly seems like a talk that Pycon needs right now (from Carl's emails and the Pycon wiki). > - Integrating Python with .NET (and Mono) I think this may also be strong, although not as strong as Python for C# programmers. Although I can't decide. There were some talks last year on .NET but none like Python for C# Programmers (I think) > - Getting Started with wxPython -1 on this. There are so many damn GUI frameworks and there were about 3 talks last year focusing on a framework (possibly more than I can't think of right now) > - Fun with Function Frames, Metaclasses, __getitem__ and Decorators This would be a very cool talk to see :) And would be very interesting for intermediate/advanced users. I think it would be popular. But, again, if you can find some stats on attendance that would be a better way to judge. _ Try one as a lightning talk! Also, you may want to submit two outlines and let the judges decide. That's probably the best way to approach it. _______________________________________________ Chicago mailing list Chicago at python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago --------------------------------- Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mail.python.org/pipermail/chicago/attachments/20071113/e9d5ce0d/attachment-0001.htm From hsu.feihong at yahoo.com Wed Nov 14 06:30:11 2007 From: hsu.feihong at yahoo.com (Feihong Hsu) Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2007 21:30:11 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Chicago] Help with PyCon Talk Proposals In-Reply-To: <18234.22519.121640.886866@montanaro.dyndns.org> Message-ID: <727346.6337.qm@web34803.mail.mud.yahoo.com> C# for Python programmers? I don't see the committee approving that one. I think the only "X for Python programmers" talk that might conceivably stand a chance is "Boo for Python programmers". But that one is still iffy. In my experience, programming in Boo doesn't feel much like programming in Python. - Feihong skip at pobox.com wrote: Chris> --. although it's a good idea in general, I'm not sure it would Chris> be good for Pycon, as most Pycon attendees are already Python Chris> programmers. Ted> I completely disagree! I think you're as likely to see people from Ted> the Chicago tech sector significant with C# experience and only Ted> modest python experience... How about a C# for Python programmers tutorial? (ducks) Skip _______________________________________________ Chicago mailing list Chicago at python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago --------------------------------- Get easy, one-click access to your favorites. Make Yahoo! your homepage. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mail.python.org/pipermail/chicago/attachments/20071113/a79922ba/attachment.htm From hsu.feihong at yahoo.com Wed Nov 14 06:39:28 2007 From: hsu.feihong at yahoo.com (Feihong Hsu) Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2007 21:39:28 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Chicago] Help with PyCon Talk Proposals In-Reply-To: <473A8323.1070501@colorstudy.com> Message-ID: <793886.63826.qm@web34815.mail.mud.yahoo.com> +1 on a JavaScript for Python programmers tutorial. I'm still often befuddled by JavaScript issues, and it's not like I can avoid it if I'm trying to do anything dynamic. In particular I would like some tips on how to make JavaScript development more like Python development (something a bit deeper than "use mochikit, it rawks"). - Feihong Ian Bicking wrote: skip at pobox.com wrote: > Chris> --. although it's a good idea in general, I'm not sure it would > Chris> be good for Pycon, as most Pycon attendees are already Python > Chris> programmers. > > Ted> I completely disagree! I think you're as likely to see people from > Ted> the Chicago tech sector significant with C# experience and only > Ted> modest python experience... > > How about a C# for Python programmers tutorial? (ducks) More seriously, I think Javascript for Python programmers (especially Javascript OO) would be a really great presentation. -- Ian Bicking : ianb at colorstudy.com : http://blog.ianbicking.org _______________________________________________ Chicago mailing list Chicago at python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago --------------------------------- Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mail.python.org/pipermail/chicago/attachments/20071113/62f9f28a/attachment.htm From kumar.mcmillan at gmail.com Wed Nov 14 07:01:21 2007 From: kumar.mcmillan at gmail.com (Kumar McMillan) Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2007 00:01:21 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] Help with PyCon Talk Proposals In-Reply-To: <793886.63826.qm@web34815.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <473A8323.1070501@colorstudy.com> <793886.63826.qm@web34815.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Nov 13, 2007 11:39 PM, Feihong Hsu wrote: > +1 on a JavaScript for Python programmers tutorial. > > I'm still often befuddled by JavaScript issues, and it's not like I can > avoid it if I'm trying to do anything dynamic. In particular I would like > some tips on how to make JavaScript development more like Python development > (something a bit deeper than "use mochikit, it rawks"). damn, you stole my reply ;) seriously though ... Bob Ippolito has gone to **extreme** lengths [1,2,3,4,5] to make Javascript work like python ...and specfically twisted [6] ... and tested like perl [7]. Python and Javascript are actually very similar languages. Hmm... I might steal Ian's idea for a talk. MochiKit is an excellent gateway from Python to Javascript. I'd certainly like to learn more about how Javascript works. I think it is a fun language. For example: (function () { load_stuff(); })(); is just "neat-o." [1] http://bob.pythonmac.org/archives/2005/07/06/iteration-in-javascript/ [2] http://mochikit.com/doc/html/MochiKit/Iter.html [3] http://mochikit.com/doc/html/MochiKit/Iter.html#fn-foreach [4] http://mochikit.com/doc/html/MochiKit/Iter.html#fn-islice [5] http://mochikit.com/doc/html/MochiKit/Iter.html#fn-list [6] http://mochikit.com/doc/html/MochiKit/Async.html#fn-deferred [7] http://svn.mochikit.com/mochikit/trunk/tests/test_Base.js From catherine.devlin at gmail.com Wed Nov 14 10:10:31 2007 From: catherine.devlin at gmail.com (Catherine Devlin) Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2007 04:10:31 -0500 Subject: [Chicago] Help with PyCon Talk Proposals In-Reply-To: <838959.25829.qm@web34802.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <838959.25829.qm@web34802.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <6523e39a0711140110k2d8fd2c8ybb8db6a1a74ae281@mail.gmail.com> On Nov 14, 2007 12:22 AM, Feihong Hsu wrote: > In a way, a Python/.NET integration talk might be a better choice than > "Python for C# programmers" because this would directly target C# > programmers who have already decided to learn Python, but who don't yet > understand all the snags that result from the differences between the two > platforms. Again, I'm not sure about how many people could really be > interested in this. Please submit this! Most of the IronPython documentation is aimed at people who are thoroughly familiar with .NET. I've never found any good resources for somebody who's approaching .NET for the first time as a Python programmer. It's so bad that I'm trying to find time to take a C# class and do some practice projects in C#, purely so I can discard the C# and get enough understanding of .NET to really understand its use in IronPython. I doubt my situation's unique; with new possibilities like programming browser applications in IronPython with Silverlight In general, I hope all of you are thinking about what you can submit. It's all well and good to write up a wish list, but we are the only Santa who can come sliding down the chimney with it! You never know what the selection committee will take unless you submit it, and they need plenty of options to make good choices and a good conference. -- - Catherine http://catherinedevlin.blogspot.com/ From chris.mcavoy at gmail.com Wed Nov 14 13:46:57 2007 From: chris.mcavoy at gmail.com (Chris McAvoy) Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2007 06:46:57 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] Reminder: RSVP for tomorrow night Message-ID: <3096c19d0711140446l1665874fo101b762a5993c46f@mail.gmail.com> Just a reminder, please RSVP to me (chris.mcavoy at gmail.com) with a subject line of "RSVP Chipy". We need the list for Security. Chris From tcp at mac.com Wed Nov 14 14:15:55 2007 From: tcp at mac.com (Ted Pollari) Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2007 07:15:55 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] Help with PyCon Talk Proposals In-Reply-To: <473A8323.1070501@colorstudy.com> References: <969638.86847.qm@web34813.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <3096c19d0711131140y34730834lfb2918178ac895a7@mail.gmail.com> <18234.22519.121640.886866@montanaro.dyndns.org> <473A8323.1070501@colorstudy.com> Message-ID: <0D96164E-D498-4C37-8ED3-C344FDFDDD61@mac.com> On Nov 13, 2007, at 11:09 PM, Ian Bicking wrote: > > More seriously, I think Javascript for Python programmers (especially > Javascript OO) would be a really great presentation. +1 -- that really would be of strong personal interest as I last really looked at javascript 6 years ago and decided it was too much of a pain to do much with, for better or for worse, and yet somehow now I'm finding compelling reasons to reconsider... -t From szybalski at gmail.com Wed Nov 14 15:43:38 2007 From: szybalski at gmail.com (Lukasz Szybalski) Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2007 08:43:38 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] next meeting talk- topic request In-Reply-To: <1CE8BDB9-EA9C-4ACA-A4C8-8DCBE7C4D01E@gmail.com> References: <719810.25176.qm@web34813.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <432079.86664.qm@web81114.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <1704b7a20711070629r2e336e73u5e170848f6a923af@mail.gmail.com> <276266d0711081354i4af299dfx1835525d586910f8@mail.gmail.com> <1CE8BDB9-EA9C-4ACA-A4C8-8DCBE7C4D01E@gmail.com> Message-ID: <804e5c70711140643p40f4a72av47b39f794f267834@mail.gmail.com> Hello, So will anybody talk about "unit testing" this Thursday meeting? Thanks, Lucas From varmaa at gmail.com Wed Nov 14 18:45:08 2007 From: varmaa at gmail.com (Atul Varma) Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2007 11:45:08 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] Lightning talk topics? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <361b27370711140945u67a804e4r15f4ecaa20f30ffd@mail.gmail.com> I'd like to give a lightning talk on a little personal project I worked on over the summer that involves distributing auto-updating python-based desktop applications through the use of bootstrapping the Python environment (as opposed to distributing a frozen version of the program). - Atul On 11/13/07, Kumar McMillan wrote: > > Chris mentioned it would be a good idea to open up the floor to > lightning talks for the meeting on Thursday. > > Here's mine: > > Google's Open Social API > - What the heck is it? > - An example application running in the Orkut sandbox > - What does it mean for the future of the web? > > (this really will be "lightning" quick since I don't have much) > > _ > > Any others? > _______________________________________________ > Chicago mailing list > Chicago at python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mail.python.org/pipermail/chicago/attachments/20071114/7fcae588/attachment.htm From hsu.feihong at yahoo.com Wed Nov 14 20:59:16 2007 From: hsu.feihong at yahoo.com (Feihong Hsu) Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2007 11:59:16 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Chicago] Question about the with statement in Python 2.5 In-Reply-To: <361b27370711140945u67a804e4r15f4ecaa20f30ffd@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <785636.75952.qm@web34815.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Just checking to make sure there's not something I'm missing here, but Python 2.5's with statement cannot be used to define anonymous callback functions, right? For example, the following could not be made to work: ============================================ btn = Button(label="Click me!") with btn.click: print "You pressed the button!" ============================================ I have tried writing my own context manager, but have not found a way to defer the execution of the code inside the with-block. Thanks, Feihong --------------------------------- Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mail.python.org/pipermail/chicago/attachments/20071114/f8180ca8/attachment.htm From kumar.mcmillan at gmail.com Wed Nov 14 21:20:46 2007 From: kumar.mcmillan at gmail.com (Kumar McMillan) Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2007 14:20:46 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] Question about the with statement in Python 2.5 In-Reply-To: <785636.75952.qm@web34815.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <361b27370711140945u67a804e4r15f4ecaa20f30ffd@mail.gmail.com> <785636.75952.qm@web34815.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Nov 14, 2007 1:59 PM, Feihong Hsu wrote: > Just checking to make sure there's not something I'm missing here, but > Python 2.5's with statement cannot be used to define anonymous callback > functions, right? For example, the following could not be made to work: > > ============================================ > > btn = Button(label="Click me!") > with btn.click: > print "You pressed the button!" > > ============================================ > > I have tried writing my own context manager, but have not found a way to > defer the execution of the code inside the with-block. hmm, you probably want a decorator instead (thus, the original code you posted): btn = Button(label="Click me!") @btn.click def onclick(target): print "You clicked", target.label The with statement is more designed to ease the try/finally pattern. For example: class ezfile(file): def __enter__(self): pass def __exit__(self): self.close() with ezfile('/tmp/fooz.txt', 'w') as f: f.write("stuff') If you want to do with statement stuff in python 2.4 this is a pretty good solution: http://oakwinter.com/code/context_tools/ For example: @context_tools.decorate_with(my_manager()) def foo(context, y, z): ... is equivalent to def foo(y, z): with my_manager() as context: ... From cstejerean at gmail.com Wed Nov 14 22:17:27 2007 From: cstejerean at gmail.com (Cosmin Stejerean) Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2007 15:17:27 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] Lightning talk topics? In-Reply-To: <361b27370711140945u67a804e4r15f4ecaa20f30ffd@mail.gmail.com> References: <361b27370711140945u67a804e4r15f4ecaa20f30ffd@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <276266d0711141317o2d68e16cvb3c4a3f8105944a4@mail.gmail.com> +1 for this topic On Nov 14, 2007 11:45 AM, Atul Varma wrote: > I'd like to give a lightning talk on a little personal project I worked on > over the summer that involves distributing auto-updating python-based > desktop applications through the use of bootstrapping the Python environment > (as opposed to distributing a frozen version of the program). > > - Atul > > > On 11/13/07, Kumar McMillan wrote: > > > > Chris mentioned it would be a good idea to open up the floor to > > lightning talks for the meeting on Thursday. > > > > Here's mine: > > > > Google's Open Social API > > - What the heck is it? > > - An example application running in the Orkut sandbox > > - What does it mean for the future of the web? > > > > (this really will be "lightning" quick since I don't have much) > > > > _ > > > > Any others? > > _______________________________________________ > > Chicago mailing list > > Chicago at python.org > > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Chicago mailing list > Chicago at python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago > > -- Cosmin Stejerean http://blog.offbytwo.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mail.python.org/pipermail/chicago/attachments/20071114/495f38b7/attachment.htm From cstejerean at gmail.com Wed Nov 14 22:48:05 2007 From: cstejerean at gmail.com (Cosmin Stejerean) Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2007 15:48:05 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] next meeting talk- topic request In-Reply-To: <804e5c70711140643p40f4a72av47b39f794f267834@mail.gmail.com> References: <719810.25176.qm@web34813.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <432079.86664.qm@web81114.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <1704b7a20711070629r2e336e73u5e170848f6a923af@mail.gmail.com> <276266d0711081354i4af299dfx1835525d586910f8@mail.gmail.com> <1CE8BDB9-EA9C-4ACA-A4C8-8DCBE7C4D01E@gmail.com> <804e5c70711140643p40f4a72av47b39f794f267834@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <276266d0711141348p134f4ddbr2f6c5ea794469dcd@mail.gmail.com> If there is still interest I can do a VERY BRIEF talk on py.test. Since I might get there a little late I would prefer to be scheduled for later rather than earlier. - Cosmin On Nov 14, 2007 8:43 AM, Lukasz Szybalski wrote: > Hello, > So will anybody talk about "unit testing" this Thursday meeting? > > Thanks, > Lucas > _______________________________________________ > Chicago mailing list > Chicago at python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago > -- Cosmin Stejerean http://blog.offbytwo.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mail.python.org/pipermail/chicago/attachments/20071114/e3100a7d/attachment.htm From mdipierro at cti.depaul.edu Thu Nov 15 00:11:11 2007 From: mdipierro at cti.depaul.edu (Massimo Di Pierro) Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2007 17:11:11 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] Web Frameworks? In-Reply-To: References: <979B6115-A1DB-4E0F-904A-F5D619C27EDB@cti.depaul.edu><1187365600.6461.3.camel@localhost><1A2F1342-C395-4745-9AD3-867092D1B1CD@cti.depaul.edu> Message-ID: Hello everybody. Just wanted to let you know that Gluon 1.12 (GPL2) is out with lots of new stuff: better database administrative interface, JSON, CSV, RTF, RSS, etc. (find examples in the web page) http://mdp.cti.depaul.edu We also have a google group: http://groups.google.com/group/gluon?hl=en a wiki: http://www.bithawk.net/cgi-bin/moin.cgi/GluonNotes a youtube video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VBjja6N6IYk and a cookbook tutorial: http://mdp.cti.depaul.edu/examples/static/ cookbook.pdf and a sample controller for registration/authentication: http:// gluon.googlegroups.com/web/identity.py (we do not have wikipedia entry because somebody took it down twice and I gave up) Notice: The Linux version requires Python2.5 and sqlite3 or postgresql. The Windows and Mac binary version should have no dependencies. Thanks to everybody who is contributing. Sorry if you already got this email through another mailing list. Massimo From cstejerean at gmail.com Thu Nov 15 00:23:08 2007 From: cstejerean at gmail.com (Cosmin Stejerean) Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2007 17:23:08 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] Web Frameworks? In-Reply-To: References: <979B6115-A1DB-4E0F-904A-F5D619C27EDB@cti.depaul.edu> <1187365600.6461.3.camel@localhost> <1A2F1342-C395-4745-9AD3-867092D1B1CD@cti.depaul.edu> Message-ID: <276266d0711141523w68564d17i9b1de4894a6b3942@mail.gmail.com> Are you planning on presenting this at PyCon'08? - Cosmin On Nov 14, 2007 5:11 PM, Massimo Di Pierro wrote: > Hello everybody. > > Just wanted to let you know that Gluon 1.12 (GPL2) is out with lots > of new stuff: better database administrative interface, JSON, CSV, > RTF, RSS, etc. (find examples in the web page) > > http://mdp.cti.depaul.edu > > We also have a google group: http://groups.google.com/group/gluon?hl=en > a wiki: http://www.bithawk.net/cgi-bin/moin.cgi/GluonNotes > a youtube video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VBjja6N6IYk > and a cookbook tutorial: http://mdp.cti.depaul.edu/examples/static/ > cookbook.pdf > and a sample controller for registration/authentication: http:// > gluon.googlegroups.com/web/identity.py > (we do not have wikipedia entry because somebody took it down twice > and I gave up) > > Notice: The Linux version requires Python2.5 and sqlite3 or > postgresql. The Windows and Mac binary version should have no > dependencies. > > Thanks to everybody who is contributing. > > Sorry if you already got this email through another mailing list. > > Massimo > > _______________________________________________ > Chicago mailing list > Chicago at python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago > -- Cosmin Stejerean http://blog.offbytwo.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mail.python.org/pipermail/chicago/attachments/20071114/11b44562/attachment.htm From mdipierro at cti.depaul.edu Thu Nov 15 00:31:38 2007 From: mdipierro at cti.depaul.edu (Massimo Di Pierro) Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2007 17:31:38 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] Web Frameworks? In-Reply-To: <276266d0711141523w68564d17i9b1de4894a6b3942@mail.gmail.com> References: <979B6115-A1DB-4E0F-904A-F5D619C27EDB@cti.depaul.edu> <1187365600.6461.3.camel@localhost> <1A2F1342-C395-4745-9AD3-867092D1B1CD@cti.depaul.edu> <276266d0711141523w68564d17i9b1de4894a6b3942@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <0B0315C6-E61E-4635-8B68-97FC1BCA7462@cti.depaul.edu> I am writing a proposal as we speak. I will send it tomorrow. Any advice/suggestion? Massimo On Nov 14, 2007, at 5:23 PM, Cosmin Stejerean wrote: > Are you planning on presenting this at PyCon'08? > > - Cosmin > > On Nov 14, 2007 5:11 PM, Massimo Di Pierro > wrote: > Hello everybody. > > Just wanted to let you know that Gluon 1.12 (GPL2) is out with lots > of new stuff: better database administrative interface, JSON, CSV, > RTF, RSS, etc. (find examples in the web page) > > http://mdp.cti.depaul.edu > > We also have a google group: http://groups.google.com/group/gluon? > hl=en > a wiki: http://www.bithawk.net/cgi-bin/moin.cgi/GluonNotes > a youtube video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VBjja6N6IYk > and a cookbook tutorial: http://mdp.cti.depaul.edu/examples/static/ > cookbook.pdf > and a sample controller for registration/authentication: http:// > gluon.googlegroups.com/web/identity.py > (we do not have wikipedia entry because somebody took it down twice > and I gave up) > > Notice: The Linux version requires Python2.5 and sqlite3 or > postgresql. The Windows and Mac binary version should have no > dependencies. > > Thanks to everybody who is contributing. > > Sorry if you already got this email through another mailing list. > > Massimo > > _______________________________________________ > Chicago mailing list > Chicago at python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago > > > > -- > Cosmin Stejerean > http://blog.offbytwo.com > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mail.python.org/pipermail/chicago/attachments/20071114/b45d9fea/attachment.htm From jeffh at dundeemt.com Thu Nov 15 04:03:01 2007 From: jeffh at dundeemt.com (Jeff Hinrichs - DM&T) Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2007 21:03:01 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] survey: have you ever been sent to training In-Reply-To: <473A78A7.509@personnelware.com> References: <473A78A7.509@personnelware.com> Message-ID: <5aaed53f0711141903y22edafa4l88de3518d246c66f@mail.gmail.com> I don't think it would be crazy. My first PyCon was within 12 months of starting to use Python. I wanted to get a feel for the community, I was a constant lurker on the c.l.py and had been programming for a number of years prior. So I can't say that went to learn the basics, I went to learn how much I didn't know, but I was traveling from Omaha to D.C. for that one. Locals would tend to be the ones, imho, who would go to a conference to learn a language. The low cost of PyCon mixed with no travel expenses might just be the venue of choice for learning a new language. -Jeff On Nov 13, 2007 10:25 PM, Carl Karsten wrote: > I am wondering how often people go to a conference that are new to the > conference is about. This will help get a feel for how most most is in: > > "as most Pycon attendees are already Python programmers." > > I am sure than over 50% know python. probably even 80%. But given the number > of "I don't know python" issues that come with django, I would not be surprised > if 10% of the attendees show up at PyCon to learn Python. > > Especially if it is advertised that there will be some sessions where someone > can "Learn Python." > > Back in the 1900's, the PHB I worked for decided Delphi was the way to go. So > we spent a few days being taught Delphi. I think if there had been a Delphi > conference, good chance we would have been sent, even before our training. > > So, how crazy would it be to try to squeeze into PyCon a Basic Python session or > Tutorial? > > Carl K > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Chicago mailing list > Chicago at python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago > From cstejerean at gmail.com Thu Nov 15 04:46:22 2007 From: cstejerean at gmail.com (Cosmin Stejerean) Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2007 21:46:22 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] Web Frameworks? In-Reply-To: <0B0315C6-E61E-4635-8B68-97FC1BCA7462@cti.depaul.edu> References: <979B6115-A1DB-4E0F-904A-F5D619C27EDB@cti.depaul.edu> <1187365600.6461.3.camel@localhost> <1A2F1342-C395-4745-9AD3-867092D1B1CD@cti.depaul.edu> <276266d0711141523w68564d17i9b1de4894a6b3942@mail.gmail.com> <0B0315C6-E61E-4635-8B68-97FC1BCA7462@cti.depaul.edu> Message-ID: <75523183-D9BC-437E-A68C-53ACDA64412B@gmail.com> I would recommend creating a Google Code project to manage source code and bug reports. A wikipedia entry will have to wait until this becomes widespread enough to pass "notability" standards. Cosmin Stejerean (m) On Nov 14, 2007, at 5:31 PM, Massimo Di Pierro wrote: > I am writing a proposal as we speak. I will send it tomorrow. > Any advice/suggestion? > > Massimo > > On Nov 14, 2007, at 5:23 PM, Cosmin Stejerean wrote: > >> Are you planning on presenting this at PyCon'08? >> >> - Cosmin >> >> On Nov 14, 2007 5:11 PM, Massimo Di Pierro >> wrote: >> Hello everybody. >> >> Just wanted to let you know that Gluon 1.12 (GPL2) is out with lots >> of new stuff: better database administrative interface, JSON, CSV, >> RTF, RSS, etc. (find examples in the web page) >> >> http://mdp.cti.depaul.edu >> >> We also have a google group: http://groups.google.com/group/gluon?hl=en >> a wiki: http://www.bithawk.net/cgi-bin/moin.cgi/GluonNotes >> a youtube video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VBjja6N6IYk >> and a cookbook tutorial: http://mdp.cti.depaul.edu/examples/static/ >> cookbook.pdf >> and a sample controller for registration/authentication: http:// >> gluon.googlegroups.com/web/identity.py >> (we do not have wikipedia entry because somebody took it down twice >> and I gave up) >> >> Notice: The Linux version requires Python2.5 and sqlite3 or >> postgresql. The Windows and Mac binary version should have no >> dependencies. >> >> Thanks to everybody who is contributing. >> >> Sorry if you already got this email through another mailing list. >> >> Massimo >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Chicago mailing list >> Chicago at python.org >> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago >> >> >> >> -- >> Cosmin Stejerean >> http://blog.offbytwo.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > Chicago mailing list > Chicago at python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mail.python.org/pipermail/chicago/attachments/20071114/baaa81d4/attachment.htm From mdipierro at cti.depaul.edu Thu Nov 15 04:52:18 2007 From: mdipierro at cti.depaul.edu (Massimo Di Pierro) Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2007 21:52:18 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] Web Frameworks? In-Reply-To: <75523183-D9BC-437E-A68C-53ACDA64412B@gmail.com> References: <979B6115-A1DB-4E0F-904A-F5D619C27EDB@cti.depaul.edu> <1187365600.6461.3.camel@localhost> <1A2F1342-C395-4745-9AD3-867092D1B1CD@cti.depaul.edu> <276266d0711141523w68564d17i9b1de4894a6b3942@mail.gmail.com> <0B0315C6-E61E-4635-8B68-97FC1BCA7462@cti.depaul.edu> <75523183-D9BC-437E-A68C-53ACDA64412B@gmail.com> Message-ID: I will try do that within the next weeks. Thanks Massimo On Nov 14, 2007, at 9:46 PM, Cosmin Stejerean wrote: > I would recommend creating a Google Code project to manage source > code and bug reports. > > A wikipedia entry will have to wait until this becomes widespread > enough to pass "notability" standards. > > Cosmin Stejerean (m) > > > On Nov 14, 2007, at 5:31 PM, Massimo Di Pierro > wrote: > >> I am writing a proposal as we speak. I will send it tomorrow. >> Any advice/suggestion? >> >> Massimo >> >> On Nov 14, 2007, at 5:23 PM, Cosmin Stejerean wrote: >> >>> Are you planning on presenting this at PyCon'08? >>> >>> - Cosmin >>> >>> On Nov 14, 2007 5:11 PM, Massimo Di Pierro >>> wrote: >>> Hello everybody. >>> >>> Just wanted to let you know that Gluon 1.12 (GPL2) is out with lots >>> of new stuff: better database administrative interface, JSON, CSV, >>> RTF, RSS, etc. (find examples in the web page) >>> >>> http://mdp.cti.depaul.edu >>> >>> We also have a google group: http://groups.google.com/group/gluon? >>> hl=en >>> a wiki: http://www.bithawk.net/cgi-bin/moin.cgi/GluonNotes >>> a youtube video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VBjja6N6IYk >>> and a cookbook tutorial: http://mdp.cti.depaul.edu/examples/static/ >>> cookbook.pdf >>> and a sample controller for registration/authentication: http:// >>> gluon.googlegroups.com/web/identity.py >>> (we do not have wikipedia entry because somebody took it down twice >>> and I gave up) >>> >>> Notice: The Linux version requires Python2.5 and sqlite3 or >>> postgresql. The Windows and Mac binary version should have no >>> dependencies. >>> >>> Thanks to everybody who is contributing. >>> >>> Sorry if you already got this email through another mailing list. >>> >>> Massimo >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Chicago mailing list >>> Chicago at python.org >>> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Cosmin Stejerean >>> http://blog.offbytwo.com >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Chicago mailing list >> Chicago at python.org >> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mail.python.org/pipermail/chicago/attachments/20071114/90e28b2d/attachment-0001.htm From hsu.feihong at yahoo.com Thu Nov 15 04:55:46 2007 From: hsu.feihong at yahoo.com (Feihong Hsu) Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2007 19:55:46 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Chicago] Help with PyCon Talk Proposals In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <85452.67162.qm@web34812.mail.mud.yahoo.com> I didn't realize people still want more material on Unicode. What are the issues that people still struggle with? Or maybe I should ask, what didn't I cover well enough in my original Unicode talk? Actually, I've always felt the Unicode support in Python was really good, at least in comparison to other languages/platforms like Ruby and Smalltalk. And Python 3 will only make things in this area even better. However, I do have a suspicion that people will continue to have issues with UTF-8, the BOM, language encodings, etc., even after Python 3 has been widely adopted. They will just be somewhat different issues than now. It would be awesome if someone who has been playing around with the Python 3 alpha could anticipate these issues and give a preemptive talk on them. - Feihong Kumar McMillan wrote: On Nov 13, 2007 2:43 PM, Chris McAvoy wrote: > As a total aside, you're also a really fun speaker Feihong. Remember > that Unicode talk? > > You should consider submitting a Unicode talk. Last year, there was > only one (that I know of) and it was standing room only. Unicode is > something everyone needs to deal with at some point, but few really > want to do a deep dive. last Pycon's unicode talk wasn't very good at all. I actually walked away from it more confused. But it was very popular because unicode is easily *the* most annoying thing about Python and the hardest thing to wrap ones head around. However, something to consider is that unicode will change so drastically in python 3 so I'm not sure how relevant a talk will be. It will be more relevant at this Pycon than 2009 Pycon, that's for sure! Kumar _______________________________________________ Chicago mailing list Chicago at python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago --------------------------------- Get easy, one-click access to your favorites. Make Yahoo! your homepage. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mail.python.org/pipermail/chicago/attachments/20071114/021d5fb5/attachment.htm From carl at personnelware.com Thu Nov 15 05:15:34 2007 From: carl at personnelware.com (Carl Karsten) Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2007 22:15:34 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] Help with PyCon Talk Proposals In-Reply-To: <85452.67162.qm@web34812.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <85452.67162.qm@web34812.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <473BC7E6.9040608@personnelware.com> Feihong Hsu wrote: > I didn't realize people still want more material on Unicode. What are the issues that people still struggle with? I think the problem is when you work with some other code/system that isn't expecting it. sql and sending email are 2 that I have bumped into. wx comes to mind, but that was a year ago. Carl K From hsu.feihong at yahoo.com Thu Nov 15 05:51:11 2007 From: hsu.feihong at yahoo.com (Feihong Hsu) Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2007 20:51:11 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Chicago] Help with PyCon Talk Proposals In-Reply-To: <473BC7E6.9040608@personnelware.com> Message-ID: <458966.63654.qm@web34807.mail.mud.yahoo.com> I'm not really familiar with Unicode issues involving email. Were you able to resolve the problem in the end? But I personally haven't had any database or GUI framework issues with Unicode in a long time. Well, MySQL comes to mind, but they supposedly fixed those problems. - Feihong Carl Karsten wrote: Feihong Hsu wrote: > I didn't realize people still want more material on Unicode. What are the issues that people still struggle with? I think the problem is when you work with some other code/system that isn't expecting it. sql and sending email are 2 that I have bumped into. wx comes to mind, but that was a year ago. Carl K _______________________________________________ Chicago mailing list Chicago at python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago --------------------------------- Be a better pen pal. Text or chat with friends inside Yahoo! Mail. See how. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mail.python.org/pipermail/chicago/attachments/20071114/8c11a0cf/attachment.htm From carl at personnelware.com Thu Nov 15 06:29:09 2007 From: carl at personnelware.com (Carl Karsten) Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2007 23:29:09 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] Help with PyCon Talk Proposals In-Reply-To: <458966.63654.qm@web34807.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <458966.63654.qm@web34807.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <473BD925.8000304@personnelware.com> Feihong Hsu wrote: > I'm not really familiar with Unicode issues involving email. Were you able to resolve the problem in the end? I was told "make sure the subject are ascii to reduce being labeled as spam." this took care of it: subject = safe_ascii_encode(subject) > > But I personally haven't had any database or GUI framework issues with Unicode in a long time. Well, MySQL comes to mind, but they supposedly fixed those problems. I think there was something in the djagno unit tests that bit me. like I hadn't created the db right. I often wonder "why doesn't this stuff just work?" and conclude that I must not understand it. Carl K From hsu.feihong at yahoo.com Thu Nov 15 16:35:38 2007 From: hsu.feihong at yahoo.com (Feihong Hsu) Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2007 07:35:38 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Chicago] Help with PyCon Talk Proposals In-Reply-To: <473BD925.8000304@personnelware.com> Message-ID: <318993.18653.qm@web34809.mail.mud.yahoo.com> No, Django has had issues with unicode in the past. However, the current SVN release finally gets it right (I hope). Django now fully supports the __unicode__() method. The following is from Django Tutorial 1 (http://www.djangoproject.com/documentation/tutorial01/). ==================================================== If __unicode__() doesn?t seem to work If you add the __unicode__() method to your models and don?t see any change in how they?re represented, you?re most likely using an old version of Django. (This version of the tutorial is written for the latest development version of Django.) If you?re using a Subversion checkout of of Django?s development version (see the installation docs for more information), you shouldn?t have any problems. If you want to stick with an older version of Django, you?ll want to switch to the Django 0.96 tutorial, because this tutorial covers several features that only exist in the Django development version. ... Why __unicode__() and not __str__()? If you?re familiar with Python, you might be in the habit of adding __str__() methods to your classes, not __unicode__() methods. We use __unicode__() here because Django models deal with Unicode by default. All data stored in your database is converted to Unicode when it?s returned. Django models have a default __str__() method that calls __unicode__() and converts the result to a UTF-8 bytestring. This means that unicode(p) will return a Unicode string, and str(p) will return a normal string, with characters encoded as UTF-8. If all of this is jibberish to you, just remember to add __unicode__() methods to your models. With any luck, things should Just Work for you. ==================================================== It's a shame that it didn't Just Work before, but remember that Django came out of Lawrence, Kansas, where people typically aren't concerned with representing foreign characters. - Feihong Carl Karsten wrote: Feihong Hsu wrote: > I'm not really familiar with Unicode issues involving email. Were you able to resolve the problem in the end? I was told "make sure the subject are ascii to reduce being labeled as spam." this took care of it: subject = safe_ascii_encode(subject) > > But I personally haven't had any database or GUI framework issues with Unicode in a long time. Well, MySQL comes to mind, but they supposedly fixed those problems. I think there was something in the djagno unit tests that bit me. like I hadn't created the db right. I often wonder "why doesn't this stuff just work?" and conclude that I must not understand it. Carl K _______________________________________________ Chicago mailing list Chicago at python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago --------------------------------- Be a better pen pal. Text or chat with friends inside Yahoo! Mail. See how. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mail.python.org/pipermail/chicago/attachments/20071115/4501d707/attachment.htm From carl at personnelware.com Thu Nov 15 17:36:50 2007 From: carl at personnelware.com (Carl Karsten) Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2007 10:36:50 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] Help with PyCon Talk Proposals In-Reply-To: <318993.18653.qm@web34809.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <318993.18653.qm@web34809.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <473C75A2.8030800@personnelware.com> You seem to be more concerned with my problems than your talk :) Right now I don't think I have any. I was just sharing my experience of where I had problems with unicode. As for the django thing, I was working with some code that was written about a year ago, and it had its own feeble workaround to whatever existed in django a year ago. current django is probably better than the workaround, but no one has bothered to recode things. I have a feeling this kind of problem will exist for a long time. Carl K Feihong Hsu wrote: > No, Django has had issues with unicode in the past. However, the current SVN release finally gets it right (I hope). Django now fully supports the __unicode__() method. The following is from Django Tutorial 1 (http://www.djangoproject.com/documentation/tutorial01/). > > ==================================================== > If __unicode__() doesn?t seem to work > If you add the __unicode__() method to your models and don?t see any change in how they?re represented, you?re most likely using an old version of Django. (This version of the tutorial is written for the latest development version of Django.) If you?re using a Subversion checkout of of Django?s development version (see the installation docs for more information), you shouldn?t have any problems. > If you want to stick with an older version of Django, you?ll want to switch to the Django 0.96 tutorial, because this tutorial covers several features that only exist in the Django development version. > ... > > Why __unicode__() and not __str__()? > If you?re familiar with Python, you might be in the habit of adding __str__() methods to your classes, not __unicode__() methods. We use __unicode__() here because Django models deal with Unicode by default. All data stored in your database is converted to Unicode when it?s returned. > Django models have a default __str__() method that calls __unicode__() and converts the result to a UTF-8 bytestring. This means that unicode(p) will return a Unicode string, and str(p) will return a normal string, with characters encoded as UTF-8. > If all of this is jibberish to you, just remember to add __unicode__() methods to your models. With any luck, things should Just Work for you. > ==================================================== > > > It's a shame that it didn't Just Work before, but remember that Django came out of Lawrence, Kansas, where people typically aren't concerned with representing foreign characters. > > - Feihong > > Carl Karsten wrote: Feihong Hsu wrote: >> I'm not really familiar with Unicode issues involving email. Were you able to resolve the problem in the end? > > I was told "make sure the subject are ascii to reduce being labeled as spam." > > this took care of it: > subject = safe_ascii_encode(subject) > >> But I personally haven't had any database or GUI framework issues with Unicode in a long time. Well, MySQL comes to mind, but they supposedly fixed those problems. > > I think there was something in the djagno unit tests that bit me. like I hadn't > created the db right. > > I often wonder "why doesn't this stuff just work?" and conclude that I must not > understand it. > > Carl K > _______________________________________________ > Chicago mailing list > Chicago at python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago > > > > --------------------------------- > Be a better pen pal. Text or chat with friends inside Yahoo! Mail. See how. > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > Chicago mailing list > Chicago at python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago From mdipierro at cti.depaul.edu Thu Nov 15 22:11:02 2007 From: mdipierro at cti.depaul.edu (Massimo Di Pierro) Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2007 15:11:02 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] (no subject) Message-ID: <2F14B3D6-43F2-4267-AE3D-46FFE74E25B0@cti.depaul.edu> Hi everybody, This is to inform you that I am teaching a new course at DePaul CSC308/CSC438 Frameworks for Web Application Development offered in Winter. The course uses Open Source software and Python, and also covers stuff like Apache, MySQL/PostgreSQL, Django, TurboGears, Gluon, AJAX, etc. Students will form groups and work on projects. Massimo From cwebber at imagescape.com Thu Nov 15 23:09:34 2007 From: cwebber at imagescape.com (Christopher Allan Webber) Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2007 16:09:34 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] (no subject) In-Reply-To: <2F14B3D6-43F2-4267-AE3D-46FFE74E25B0@cti.depaul.edu> (Massimo Di Pierro's message of "Thu, 15 Nov 2007 15:11:02 -0600") References: <2F14B3D6-43F2-4267-AE3D-46FFE74E25B0@cti.depaul.edu> Message-ID: <6y4pfnb1pd.fsf@imagepc03.rd.imagescape.com> Great news! Wish I could have taken that course while I was there. Hopefully other colleges and universities will follow suit with teaching python web frameworks soon. ;) From carl at personnelware.com Thu Nov 15 23:13:42 2007 From: carl at personnelware.com (Carl Karsten) Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2007 16:13:42 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] understanding unicode problems In-Reply-To: <473C75A2.8030800@personnelware.com> References: <318993.18653.qm@web34809.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <473C75A2.8030800@personnelware.com> Message-ID: <473CC496.3000109@personnelware.com> of course now a unicode problem just hit me. i use the django admin to enter Ivan Krstic' and reportlab spits out: http://dev.personnelware.com/carl/a/IvanK1.pdf so pretty much 100% python. I am told: > Make sure that you are using utf-8 and not some other encoding, such as > latin-1. But I really don't know what that means, nor do I even know how to debug this. Carl K From robkapteyn at gmail.com Thu Nov 15 23:32:19 2007 From: robkapteyn at gmail.com (Rob Kapteyn) Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2007 16:32:19 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] Tonight's meeting conflicts with TechCocktail Message-ID: <20B2511B-C630-4A7A-8E4C-4EFC85E3EDA2@gmail.com> Sorry everyone, I'm very conflicted and I should have looked at my schedule when the ChiPy meeting got postponed last week. But -- tonight's meeting conflicts with TechCocktail. I signed up for that 2 months ago, and I've always wanted to go. (FYI: It is sold out) Good luck tonight ! -Rob From kumar.mcmillan at gmail.com Thu Nov 15 23:50:32 2007 From: kumar.mcmillan at gmail.com (Kumar McMillan) Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2007 16:50:32 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] understanding unicode problems In-Reply-To: <473CC496.3000109@personnelware.com> References: <318993.18653.qm@web34809.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <473C75A2.8030800@personnelware.com> <473CC496.3000109@personnelware.com> Message-ID: On Nov 15, 2007 4:13 PM, Carl Karsten wrote: > of course now a unicode problem just hit me. > > i use the django admin to enter Ivan Krstic' > and reportlab spits out: http://dev.personnelware.com/carl/a/IvanK1.pdf > > so pretty much 100% python. > > I am told: > > > Make sure that you are using utf-8 and not some other encoding, such as > > latin-1. > > But I really don't know what that means, nor do I even know how to debug this. I wrote up a little something about it when it finally clicked for me: http://farmdev.com/thoughts/23/what-i-thought-i-knew-about-unicode-in-python-amounted-to-nothing/ (I was in the same spot, I knew I *should* use UTF-8 but wasn't sure how or why or what that even implied) In my email reader the name shows up as Ivan Krstic' (with a single quote at the end) so I'm not sure what character is really at the end of his name but .... if Django is dealing with unicode now (which Feihong says it is) then you probably just need to encode it into a UTF-8 bytestream before you write to the PDF file. I.E. pdf.write("%s %s" % (first_name.encode('utf-8'), last_name.encode('utf-8')). That is all assuming that first_name and last_name come from the db and through Django to you as unicode objects. If they *do not* then you have a lot more work to do! yes, most other languages like PHP, ruby, etc, barely even support unicode but I still think it is way more cumbersome than it has to be in Python and the errors one gets are unintuitive and misleading. I do agree with Feihong that after python 3 there will probably still be plenty of confusion and gotchas. Though, it remains to be seen! k From hsu.feihong at yahoo.com Thu Nov 15 23:52:26 2007 From: hsu.feihong at yahoo.com (Feihong Hsu) Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2007 14:52:26 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Chicago] understanding unicode problems In-Reply-To: <473CC496.3000109@personnelware.com> Message-ID: <448694.23022.qm@web34805.mail.mud.yahoo.com> If there's a command line version of your app, try printing out the type of the name string you're passing to Reportlab. Or if it's django, add the lines strType = type(name) assert 0 and you'll get the debug page where you can inspect the value of strType. If you see , that's bad. You need to pass name.encode('utf-8') into Reportlab. If you see , that might or might not be bad. You can use the chardet library to figure out what encoding that string is in. For example: >>> chardet.detect(name) {'encoding': 'latin-1', 'confidence': 0.99} In this example chardet tells you that the name string variable currently holds a string encoded in latin-1. To convert the string to utf-8, try this: >>> name.decode('latin-1').encode('utf-8') This takes the name string, converts it from latin-1 to a unicode string, then converts the unicode string to a normal string encoded in utf-8. Reportlab should happily generate the file for you once you give it the utf-8 string. - Feihong Procrastination Method #3: Solve everybody else's problems instead of your own. Carl Karsten wrote: of course now a unicode problem just hit me. i use the django admin to enter Ivan Krstic' and reportlab spits out: http://dev.personnelware.com/carl/a/IvanK1.pdf so pretty much 100% python. I am told: > Make sure that you are using utf-8 and not some other encoding, such as > latin-1. But I really don't know what that means, nor do I even know how to debug this. Carl K _______________________________________________ Chicago mailing list Chicago at python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago --------------------------------- Be a better pen pal. Text or chat with friends inside Yahoo! Mail. See how. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mail.python.org/pipermail/chicago/attachments/20071115/a7ee621a/attachment-0001.htm From carl at personnelware.com Fri Nov 16 00:04:53 2007 From: carl at personnelware.com (Carl Karsten) Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2007 17:04:53 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] understanding unicode problems In-Reply-To: References: <318993.18653.qm@web34809.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <473C75A2.8030800@personnelware.com> <473CC496.3000109@personnelware.com> Message-ID: <473CD095.8010709@personnelware.com> Kumar McMillan wrote: > On Nov 15, 2007 4:13 PM, Carl Karsten wrote: >> of course now a unicode problem just hit me. >> >> i use the django admin to enter Ivan Krstic' >> and reportlab spits out: http://dev.personnelware.com/carl/a/IvanK1.pdf >> >> so pretty much 100% python. >> >> I am told: >> >> > Make sure that you are using utf-8 and not some other encoding, such as >> > latin-1. >> >> But I really don't know what that means, nor do I even know how to debug this. > > I wrote up a little something about it when it finally clicked for me: > http://farmdev.com/thoughts/23/what-i-thought-i-knew-about-unicode-in-python-amounted-to-nothing/ > (I was in the same spot, I knew I *should* use UTF-8 but wasn't sure > how or why or what that even implied) Tagged. > > In my email reader the name shows up as Ivan Krstic' (with a single > quote at the end) so I'm not sure what character is really at the end > of his name but .... if Django is dealing with unicode now (which > Feihong says it is) then you probably just need to encode it into a > UTF-8 bytestream before you write to the PDF file. I.E. pdf.write("%s > %s" % (first_name.encode('utf-8'), last_name.encode('utf-8')). 'ascii' codec can't decode byte 0xc4 in position 10: ordinal not in range(128) 981. # draw the string using the function that matches the alignment: 982. s = obj.getProp("expr", returnException=True) 983. 984. if isinstance(s, basestring): 985. s = s.encode(self.Encoding) ... 986. else: 987. s = unicode(s) 988. func(posx, 0, s) Will that ever hit the else case? Carl K From kumar.mcmillan at gmail.com Fri Nov 16 00:45:21 2007 From: kumar.mcmillan at gmail.com (Kumar McMillan) Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2007 17:45:21 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] understanding unicode problems In-Reply-To: <473CD095.8010709@personnelware.com> References: <318993.18653.qm@web34809.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <473C75A2.8030800@personnelware.com> <473CC496.3000109@personnelware.com> <473CD095.8010709@personnelware.com> Message-ID: On Nov 15, 2007 5:04 PM, Carl Karsten wrote: > > In my email reader the name shows up as Ivan Krstic' (with a single > > quote at the end) so I'm not sure what character is really at the end > > of his name but .... if Django is dealing with unicode now (which > > Feihong says it is) then you probably just need to encode it into a > > UTF-8 bytestream before you write to the PDF file. I.E. pdf.write("%s > > %s" % (first_name.encode('utf-8'), last_name.encode('utf-8')). > > 'ascii' codec can't decode byte 0xc4 in position 10: ordinal not in range(128) > > 981. # draw the string using the function that matches the alignment: > 982. s = obj.getProp("expr", returnException=True) > 983. > 984. if isinstance(s, basestring): > > 985. s = s.encode(self.Encoding) ... > > 986. else: > 987. s = unicode(s) > 988. func(posx, 0, s) > > Will that ever hit the else case? nope. Both str and unicode objects are instances of basestring. From the code above I'm not sure what you're trying to do. However, if you want to turn s into unicode you could do: >>> def to_uni(str_or_uni, encoding='utf8'): ... if isinstance(str_or_uni, str): ... return unicode(str_or_uni, encoding) ... elif isinstance(str_or_uni, unicode): ... return str_or_uni ... else: ... raise ValueError("not a basestring instance") ... >>> to_uni("\xc4\xa3", 'ascii') Traceback (most recent call last): File "", line 1, in ? File "", line 3, in to_uni UnicodeDecodeError: 'ascii' codec can't decode byte 0xc4 in position 0: ordinal not in range(128) >>> to_uni("\xc4\xa3", 'utf8') u'\u0123' >>> does that help illustrate what is happening in your code? Once you have the unicode object you can turn it into a bytestream suitable for printing with: uni_obj.encode('utf8') FWIW ... since you only posted the first part of char, \xc4, I took a guess at the last part (to complete the code point), which is probably not the right one (http://www.fileformat.info/info/unicode/char/0123/index.htm) From tcp at mac.com Fri Nov 16 07:08:03 2007 From: tcp at mac.com (Ted Pollari) Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2007 00:08:03 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] Fwd: [PyCON-Organizers] Last chance for PyCon talk & tutorial proposals! References: <473D3076.7020605@python.org> Message-ID: <4F258289-412F-48B8-8E07-AD1BB3F59D5D@mac.com> Begin forwarded message: > From: David Goodger > Date: November 15, 2007 11:53:58 PM CST > To: pycon-organizers at python.org > Subject: [PyCON-Organizers] Last chance for PyCon talk & tutorial > proposals! > > Thanks to all the proposal authors so far, we have received lots of > proposals for PyCon talks & tutorials. But we'd like to have even > more. Alas, the proposal submission deadline should have been set > after a weekend, not before. So we have decided to extend the proposal > submission deadline to Monday, November 19 at midnight (Chicago > time). This gives you a *whole extra weekend* to write up your talk > and tutorial ideas! > > If you've been procrastinating, stop! Get started on a proposal > instead! > > See the call for conference talk proposals: > http://us.pycon.org/2008/conference/proposals/ > > Topic ideas: > http://wiki.python.org/moin/Talk_Subjects > http://wiki.python.org/moin/PyCon2007/Feedback#head- > e2dca74d1492e49fae11550e6cbc40fa18a17f40 > > See the call for tutorial proposals > http://us.pycon.org/2008/tutorials/proposals/ > > Topic ideas from the PyCon 2007 feedback: > http://wiki.python.org/moin/PyCon2007/Feedback/TutorialIdeas > > I hope to see (and hear) you at PyCon 2008! > http://us.pycon.org > > -- David Goodger, PyCon 2008 Chair > > _______________________________________________ > Pycon-organizers mailing list > Pycon-organizers at python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pycon-organizers From tottinge at gmail.com Fri Nov 16 07:09:48 2007 From: tottinge at gmail.com (Tim Ottinger) Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2007 00:09:48 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] Help with PyCon Talk Proposals In-Reply-To: <838959.25829.qm@web34802.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <838959.25829.qm@web34802.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <473D342C.8060007@gmail.com> Feihong Hsu wrote: > In a way, a Python/.NET integration talk might be a better choice than > "Python for C# programmers" because this would directly target C# > programmers who have already decided to learn Python, but who don't > yet understand all the snags that result from the differences between > the two platforms. Again, I'm not sure about how many people could > really be interested in this. > > There's also a different approach to go with this talk too, it could > also focus on how .NET can be used by Python programmers to handle > things that are weak spots for Python (handwriting recognition, speech > recognition, speech synthesis, scanner/camera integration, and OCR are > just run-of-the-mill libraries in .NET). But yeah, just because they > exist and they're easy to use doesn't mean I use them all that much. > I'd like to see a presentation (or at least slides) on .NET for Python. I don't know that I can make the meetings, but I would love to see the blogs/articles/slides/movie. Tim From chris.mcavoy at gmail.com Fri Nov 16 13:50:55 2007 From: chris.mcavoy at gmail.com (Chris McAvoy) Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2007 06:50:55 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] Fwd: [PyCON-Organizers] Last chance for PyCon talk & tutorial proposals! In-Reply-To: <473D3076.7020605@python.org> References: <473D3076.7020605@python.org> Message-ID: <3096c19d0711160450v21dd9bc1v415969b64609d5dd@mail.gmail.com> Pycon deadline extended! ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: David Goodger Date: Nov 15, 2007 11:53 PM Subject: [PyCON-Organizers] Last chance for PyCon talk & tutorial proposals! To: pycon-organizers at python.org Thanks to all the proposal authors so far, we have received lots of proposals for PyCon talks & tutorials. But we'd like to have even more. Alas, the proposal submission deadline should have been set after a weekend, not before. So we have decided to extend the proposal submission deadline to Monday, November 19 at midnight (Chicago time). This gives you a *whole extra weekend* to write up your talk and tutorial ideas! If you've been procrastinating, stop! Get started on a proposal instead! See the call for conference talk proposals: http://us.pycon.org/2008/conference/proposals/ Topic ideas: http://wiki.python.org/moin/Talk_Subjects http://wiki.python.org/moin/PyCon2007/Feedback#head-e2dca74d1492e49fae11550e6cbc40fa18a17f40 See the call for tutorial proposals http://us.pycon.org/2008/tutorials/proposals/ Topic ideas from the PyCon 2007 feedback: http://wiki.python.org/moin/PyCon2007/Feedback/TutorialIdeas I hope to see (and hear) you at PyCon 2008! http://us.pycon.org -- David Goodger, PyCon 2008 Chair _______________________________________________ Pycon-organizers mailing list Pycon-organizers at python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pycon-organizers -------------- next part -------------- An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Url: http://mail.python.org/pipermail/chicago/attachments/20071116/a0be07f9/attachment.asc From carl at personnelware.com Fri Nov 16 16:07:40 2007 From: carl at personnelware.com (Carl Karsten) Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2007 09:07:40 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] understanding unicode problems In-Reply-To: References: <318993.18653.qm@web34809.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <473C75A2.8030800@personnelware.com> <473CC496.3000109@personnelware.com> Message-ID: <473DB23C.5040006@personnelware.com> Kumar McMillan wrote: > On Nov 15, 2007 4:13 PM, Carl Karsten wrote: >> of course now a unicode problem just hit me. >> >> i use the django admin to enter Ivan Krstic' >> and reportlab spits out: http://dev.personnelware.com/carl/a/IvanK1.pdf >> >> so pretty much 100% python. >> >> I am told: >> >> > Make sure that you are using utf-8 and not some other encoding, such as >> > latin-1. >> >> But I really don't know what that means, nor do I even know how to debug this. > > I wrote up a little something about it when it finally clicked for me: > http://farmdev.com/thoughts/23/what-i-thought-i-knew-about-unicode-in-python-amounted-to-nothing/ > (I was in the same spot, I knew I *should* use UTF-8 but wasn't sure > how or why or what that even implied) "However, it's not always possible to work with unicode all the time because not everything supports it. As just one example, you'll need to create a wrapper that temporarily encodes / decodes data when reading a csv file using the standard csv module." Is there a standard way of encoding? A string (unicode or not) is a bunch of bytes. unicode chars may use more than one byte. What I don't understand: Why do I need to encode / decode? I get the feeling the error caused is a reminder "so that you know that you need to do the other operation later." Carl K From hsu.feihong at yahoo.com Fri Nov 16 16:08:37 2007 From: hsu.feihong at yahoo.com (Feihong Hsu) Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2007 07:08:37 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Chicago] Fwd: [PyCON-Organizers] Last chance for PyCon talk & tutorial proposals! In-Reply-To: <3096c19d0711160450v21dd9bc1v415969b64609d5dd@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <762226.38700.qm@web34808.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Sweet! Now I have more time to procrastinate! - Feihong Chris McAvoy wrote: Pycon deadline extended! ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: David Goodger Date: Nov 15, 2007 11:53 PM Subject: [PyCON-Organizers] Last chance for PyCon talk & tutorial proposals! To: pycon-organizers at python.org Thanks to all the proposal authors so far, we have received lots of proposals for PyCon talks & tutorials. But we'd like to have even more. Alas, the proposal submission deadline should have been set after a weekend, not before. So we have decided to extend the proposal submission deadline to Monday, November 19 at midnight (Chicago time). This gives you a *whole extra weekend* to write up your talk and tutorial ideas! If you've been procrastinating, stop! Get started on a proposal instead! See the call for conference talk proposals: http://us.pycon.org/2008/conference/proposals/ Topic ideas: http://wiki.python.org/moin/Talk_Subjects http://wiki.python.org/moin/PyCon2007/Feedback#head-e2dca74d1492e49fae11550e6cbc40fa18a17f40 See the call for tutorial proposals http://us.pycon.org/2008/tutorials/proposals/ Topic ideas from the PyCon 2007 feedback: http://wiki.python.org/moin/PyCon2007/Feedback/TutorialIdeas I hope to see (and hear) you at PyCon 2008! http://us.pycon.org -- David Goodger, PyCon 2008 Chair _______________________________________________ Pycon-organizers mailing list Pycon-organizers at python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pycon-organizers -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.0 (Darwin) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFHPTB2rqIPjB1FxosRA5etAJ47OJgM+vV7apSsAkgfatrcRMKc/gCgklvW A3cdogIdKUl2A9E5zmyZz0w= =2JVC -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- _______________________________________________ Chicago mailing list Chicago at python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago --------------------------------- Be a better sports nut! Let your teams follow you with Yahoo Mobile. Try it now. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mail.python.org/pipermail/chicago/attachments/20071116/5fb8d2b5/attachment.htm From szybalski at gmail.com Fri Nov 16 16:41:21 2007 From: szybalski at gmail.com (Lukasz Szybalski) Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2007 09:41:21 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] Question about last night presentation Message-ID: <804e5c70711160741l35a173fch433adcd7ac6c8d9e@mail.gmail.com> Hello, Who was doing the talk about django and how not to use "from project import XXX" but rather use path so you could reuse your project in different websites? I thought I got it, but I guess today I am not so sure anymore, so I wanted to get more details on how exactly you suppose to structure django/turbogears/pylons apps to make them more reusable. Could you guys point me to the email of that person, or some web resources on that topic? Lucas From carl at personnelware.com Fri Nov 16 16:54:35 2007 From: carl at personnelware.com (Carl Karsten) Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2007 09:54:35 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] understanding unicode problems In-Reply-To: <473DB23C.5040006@personnelware.com> References: <318993.18653.qm@web34809.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <473C75A2.8030800@personnelware.com> <473CC496.3000109@personnelware.com> <473DB23C.5040006@personnelware.com> Message-ID: <473DBD3B.90500@personnelware.com> Another problem - What fonts support what? I put an accented c into the db, and a square gets printed. Carl K From hsu.feihong at yahoo.com Fri Nov 16 16:57:10 2007 From: hsu.feihong at yahoo.com (Feihong Hsu) Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2007 07:57:10 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Chicago] understanding unicode problems In-Reply-To: <473DB23C.5040006@personnelware.com> Message-ID: <234532.68473.qm@web34807.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Carl, that's a pretty good question. There's probably no good, complete answer that can be given in a short email post. Basically, there's supposed to be a standard encoding for unicode: UTF-8. However, go to google.cn for instance and you'll see that it's GB2312. That alone tells you there are millions (billions?) of people using other encodings. So no, in practice there's no single encoding that is the standard. I think UTF-8 is the way to go because it's the closest to being the standard right now, and also it's identical to ASCII when you aren't dealing with multibyte characters. So we have to encode/decode because there is no standard encoding yet. That's why GB2312 and all those other bizarro encodings are packed into the Python standard library. Maybe someday a bunch of tech-savvy pop stars will get together and put out a rendition of "We Are the World" to raise awareness about this whole text encoding mess, and we will finally unite under one glorious standard. Along that note, does anyone have Bono's cell phone number? - Feihong Carl Karsten wrote: Kumar McMillan wrote: > On Nov 15, 2007 4:13 PM, Carl Karsten wrote: >> of course now a unicode problem just hit me. >> >> i use the django admin to enter Ivan Krstic' >> and reportlab spits out: http://dev.personnelware.com/carl/a/IvanK1.pdf >> >> so pretty much 100% python. >> >> I am told: >> >> > Make sure that you are using utf-8 and not some other encoding, such as >> > latin-1. >> >> But I really don't know what that means, nor do I even know how to debug this. > > I wrote up a little something about it when it finally clicked for me: > http://farmdev.com/thoughts/23/what-i-thought-i-knew-about-unicode-in-python-amounted-to-nothing/ > (I was in the same spot, I knew I *should* use UTF-8 but wasn't sure > how or why or what that even implied) "However, it's not always possible to work with unicode all the time because not everything supports it. As just one example, you'll need to create a wrapper that temporarily encodes / decodes data when reading a csv file using the standard csv module." Is there a standard way of encoding? A string (unicode or not) is a bunch of bytes. unicode chars may use more than one byte. What I don't understand: Why do I need to encode / decode? I get the feeling the error caused is a reminder "so that you know that you need to do the other operation later." Carl K _______________________________________________ Chicago mailing list Chicago at python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago --------------------------------- Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mail.python.org/pipermail/chicago/attachments/20071116/620a2aba/attachment.htm From kumar.mcmillan at gmail.com Fri Nov 16 17:01:18 2007 From: kumar.mcmillan at gmail.com (Kumar McMillan) Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2007 10:01:18 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] understanding unicode problems In-Reply-To: <473DB23C.5040006@personnelware.com> References: <318993.18653.qm@web34809.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <473C75A2.8030800@personnelware.com> <473CC496.3000109@personnelware.com> <473DB23C.5040006@personnelware.com> Message-ID: On Nov 16, 2007 9:07 AM, Carl Karsten wrote: > Kumar McMillan wrote: > > I wrote up a little something about it when it finally clicked for me: > > http://farmdev.com/thoughts/23/what-i-thought-i-knew-about-unicode-in-python-amounted-to-nothing/ > > (I was in the same spot, I knew I *should* use UTF-8 but wasn't sure > > how or why or what that even implied) > > "However, it's not always possible to work with unicode all the time because not > everything supports it. As just one example, you'll need to create a wrapper > that temporarily encodes / decodes data when reading a csv file using the > standard csv module." > > Is there a standard way of encoding? I suppose the standard way is to find all the boundaries of your application (where you accept strings from files or user input) and convert it all to unicode then deal with it everywhere internally as unicode. Whenever you need to send output to stdout, a file, whatever, then you encode it. > > A string (unicode or not) is a bunch of bytes. unicode chars may use more than > one byte. unicode is actually represented internally as "code points;" it's not stored in bytes while it's "unicode." > What I don't understand: Why do I need to encode / decode? Because you can't write unicode to a file, for example. A file contains bytes and unicode has arbitrary byte representations. When you encode unicode as UTF-8 the bytestring will look different than if you encode it as LATIN-1. The reason this is so confusing is that Python will **try** to do the encoding/decoding for you automatically. This is also why the errors you see are often very confusing (if you don't know Python is doing this under the hood). > I get > the feeling the error caused is a reminder "so that you know that you need to do > the other operation later." if you post a little bit more of the error I can try and give some specific suggestions for solving it. I wasn't clear exactly what code was raising the exception you posted earlier. K From pfein at pobox.com Fri Nov 16 17:10:47 2007 From: pfein at pobox.com (Pete) Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2007 11:10:47 -0500 Subject: [Chicago] understanding unicode problems In-Reply-To: <473DB23C.5040006@personnelware.com> References: <318993.18653.qm@web34809.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <473DB23C.5040006@personnelware.com> Message-ID: <200711161110.48451.pfein@pobox.com> On Friday November 16 2007 10:07:40 am Carl Karsten wrote: > A string (unicode or not) is a bunch of bytes. unicode chars may use more > than one byte. What I don't understand: Why do I need to encode / decode? > I get the feeling the error caused is a reminder "so that you know that > you need to do the other operation later." I like to think of it this way: "Unicode is the Platonic Ideal of text; Strings are the shadows on the wall." Feel free to quote me. Unicode characters exist in some abstract heavenly place. They are about as pure a representation of text as you could conceive - no glyphs (fonts), no bytes, no memory representation (that you care about), nada. Unicode can contain all characters now in existence or that will ever be. Here on earth, we can't write such things to disk or email them around. This is where strings come in. Strings (more properly termed bytestrings) are simply that - a sequence of bytes. They have an associated encoding, which is basically the alphabet of legal bytes. The string itself doesn't know its encoding; you either need to be told that by an external mechanism or guess (often both). encode() takes a unicode and produces a str decode() takes a str and produces a unicode You need to supply the source/destination encoding that your working under. The fact that both str & unicode objects have both methods in python doesn't help things. There's a reason, but it's not very good. Note that most encodings have a limited alphabet and are therefore not capable of representing the full range of unicode characters. utf8 (sometimes referred to incorrectly & unhelpfully as 'unicode') is a particular encoding for bytestrings. It's the most comprehensive and most widely used, but it's not the only one. Other commonly seen encodings are us-ascii, latin-8, windows-1252. When coding text handling apps, I find it's best to do all of your processing on unicode. This means *decoding* as *soon* as possible (right after reading) and *encoding* as *late* as possible (just before writing). Here's a little picture: network => str => decode => unicode => munge => encode => disk Hope this helps. I've got some bookmarks at http://del.icio.us/pfein/unicode if it's still not clear. -- Peter Fein || 773-575-0694 || pfein at pobox.com http://www.pobox.com/~pfein/ || PGP: 0xCCF6AE6B irc: pfein at freenode.net || jabber: peter.fein at gmail.com From pfein at pobox.com Fri Nov 16 17:19:15 2007 From: pfein at pobox.com (Pete) Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2007 11:19:15 -0500 Subject: [Chicago] understanding unicode problems In-Reply-To: <234532.68473.qm@web34807.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <234532.68473.qm@web34807.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <200711161119.16084.pfein@pobox.com> On Friday November 16 2007 10:57:10 am Feihong Hsu wrote: > There's probably no good, complete answer that can be given in a short > email post. Basically, there's supposed to be a standard encoding for > unicode: UTF-8. However, go to google.cn for instance and you'll see that If this isn't outright wrong, it's at least confusing. AFAIK, there is no official standard encoding, though I'd be happy to be corrected. UTF-8 has become the de facto standard, because it's the most comprehensive and sane without using an absurd number of bytes per character. There are a number of other functionally similar encodings that aren't used all that much: UTF-7, UTF-16. > So we have to encode/decode because there is no standard encoding yet. > That's why GB2312 and all those other bizarro encodings are packed into the > Python standard library. As for the need for other encodings, we've got 50 years of legacy documents that aren't going to magically transform themselves to UTF-8. -- Peter Fein || 773-575-0694 || pfein at pobox.com http://www.pobox.com/~pfein/ || PGP: 0xCCF6AE6B irc: pfein at freenode.net || jabber: peter.fein at gmail.com From pfein at pobox.com Fri Nov 16 17:22:26 2007 From: pfein at pobox.com (Pete) Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2007 11:22:26 -0500 Subject: [Chicago] understanding unicode problems In-Reply-To: <200711161110.48451.pfein@pobox.com> References: <318993.18653.qm@web34809.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <473DB23C.5040006@personnelware.com> <200711161110.48451.pfein@pobox.com> Message-ID: <200711161122.26463.pfein@pobox.com> On Friday November 16 2007 11:10:47 am Pete wrote: > Here's a little picture: > > network => str => decode => unicode => munge => encode => disk Oops, left out the 2nd str. Should be: network => str => decode => unicode => munge => encode => str => disk -- Peter Fein || 773-575-0694 || pfein at pobox.com http://www.pobox.com/~pfein/ || PGP: 0xCCF6AE6B irc: pfein at freenode.net || jabber: peter.fein at gmail.com From carl at personnelware.com Fri Nov 16 17:29:05 2007 From: carl at personnelware.com (Carl Karsten) Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2007 10:29:05 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] understanding unicode problems In-Reply-To: <234532.68473.qm@web34807.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <234532.68473.qm@web34807.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <473DC551.4050403@personnelware.com> Feihong Hsu wrote: > Carl, that's a pretty good question. > > There's probably no good, complete answer that can be given in a short > email post. I'll bet you can do it in a PyCon session :) > Basically, there's supposed to be a standard encoding for > unicode: UTF-8. However, go to google.cn for instance and you'll see > that it's GB2312. That alone tells you there are millions (billions?) of > people using other encodings. So no, in practice there's no single > encoding that is the standard. I think UTF-8 is the way to go because > it's the closest to being the standard right now, and also it's > identical to ASCII when you aren't dealing with multibyte characters. > > So we have to encode/decode because there is no standard encoding yet. I am not sure I understand why that means we have to. hmm, ok, so maybe it is more than a reminder, but a safety net: "you are about to put raw bytes into a place that normally only has printable characters. This may cause someone else a headache." > That's why GB2312 and all those other bizarro encodings are packed into > the Python standard library. > > Maybe someday a bunch of tech-savvy pop stars will get together and put > out a rendition of "We Are the World" to raise awareness about this > whole text encoding mess, and we will finally unite under one glorious > standard. Along that note, does anyone have Bono's cell phone number? Encodings are all just different ways of representing the same values, right? Kinda like "number of months in the year" can be shown as 12, 1100, c, XII, right? Carl K > > - Feihong > > */Carl Karsten /* wrote: > > Kumar McMillan wrote: > > On Nov 15, 2007 4:13 PM, Carl Karsten wrote: > >> of course now a unicode problem just hit me. > >> > >> i use the django admin to enter Ivan Krstic' > >> and reportlab spits out: > http://dev.personnelware.com/carl/a/IvanK1.pdf > >> > >> so pretty much 100% python. > >> > >> I am told: > >> > >> > Make sure that you are using utf-8 and not some other > encoding, such as > >> > latin-1. > >> > >> But I really don't know what that means, nor do I even know how > to debug this. > > > > I wrote up a little something about it when it finally clicked > for me: > > > http://farmdev.com/thoughts/23/what-i-thought-i-knew-about-unicode-in-python-amounted-to-nothing/ > > (I was in the same spot, I knew I *should* use UTF-8 but wasn't sure > > how or why or what that even implied) > > "However, it's not always possible to work with unicode all the time > because not > everything supports it. As just one example, you'll need to create a > wrapper > that temporarily encodes / decodes data when reading a csv file > using the > standard csv module." > > Is there a standard way of encoding? > > A string (unicode or not) is a bunch of bytes. unicode chars may use > more than > one byte. What I don't understand: Why do I need to encode / decode? > I get > the feeling the error caused is a reminder "so that you know that > you need to do > the other operation later." > > Carl K > _______________________________________________ > Chicago mailing list > Chicago at python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago > > > Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > Chicago mailing list > Chicago at python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago From hsu.feihong at yahoo.com Fri Nov 16 17:31:24 2007 From: hsu.feihong at yahoo.com (Feihong Hsu) Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2007 08:31:24 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Chicago] Frame Hacks Lightning Talk Code In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <945254.1668.qm@web34805.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Because I didn't get to type it out in front of everyone, I'm posting the example where I use frame manipulation to generate properties on a class. Warning: The following code may crash your computer if you allow a strange Asian man with a unique electromagnetic aura to type it in using your keyboard. ================================================================= # As a fun experiment, change the Employee class so that it doesn't inherit # from object (that makes it an old-style class). Observe the weird side # effects, then make an angry post on your blog! import sys # Pretend this class was implemented in C++ and has a really annoying interface # with a ton of getter and setter method. class Employee(object): def __init__(self, given_name, family_name, date_of_birth): self.given_name = given_name self.family_name = family_name self.date_of_birth = date_of_birth def GetGivenName(self): return self.given_name def SetGivenName(self, value): self.given_name = value def GetFamilyName(self): return self.family_name def SetFamilyName(self, value): self.family_name = value def GetDateOfBirth(self): return self.date_of_birth def SetDateOfBirth(self, value): self.date_of_birth = value # ad infinitum... def properties(*args): framedict = sys._getframe(1).f_locals for propname, realname in args: framedict[propname] = property( fget=eval("lambda self: self.Get%s()" % realname), fset=eval("lambda self, value: self.Set%s(value)" % realname) ) # Let's make a nice wrapper for the Employee class that uses properties in # place of the getter and setter methods. Also, let's shorten the names # because we're lazy and don't like to type too much. class PyEmployee(Employee): properties( ('given', 'GivenName'), ('family', 'FamilyName'), ('birth', 'DateOfBirth'), ) if __name__ == '__main__': e = PyEmployee('Feihong', 'Hsu', '2007-11-15') print e.given, e.GetGivenName(), e.given_name e.given = 'Horatio' # change given name through the property print e.given, e.GetGivenName(), e.given_name --------------------------------- Get easy, one-click access to your favorites. Make Yahoo! your homepage. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mail.python.org/pipermail/chicago/attachments/20071116/6326d67a/attachment.htm From carl at personnelware.com Fri Nov 16 17:36:14 2007 From: carl at personnelware.com (Carl Karsten) Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2007 10:36:14 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] understanding unicode problems In-Reply-To: References: <318993.18653.qm@web34809.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <473C75A2.8030800@personnelware.com> <473CC496.3000109@personnelware.com> <473DB23C.5040006@personnelware.com> Message-ID: <473DC6FE.5010304@personnelware.com> Kumar McMillan wrote: > On Nov 16, 2007 9:07 AM, Carl Karsten wrote: >> Kumar McMillan wrote: >>> I wrote up a little something about it when it finally clicked for me: >>> http://farmdev.com/thoughts/23/what-i-thought-i-knew-about-unicode-in-python-amounted-to-nothing/ >>> (I was in the same spot, I knew I *should* use UTF-8 but wasn't sure >>> how or why or what that even implied) >> "However, it's not always possible to work with unicode all the time because not >> everything supports it. As just one example, you'll need to create a wrapper >> that temporarily encodes / decodes data when reading a csv file using the >> standard csv module." >> >> Is there a standard way of encoding? > > I suppose the standard way is to find all the boundaries of your > application (where you accept strings from files or user input) and > convert it all to unicode then deal with it everywhere internally as > unicode. Whenever you need to send output to stdout, a file, > whatever, then you encode it. > >> A string (unicode or not) is a bunch of bytes. unicode chars may use more than >> one byte. > > unicode is actually represented internally as "code points;" it's not > stored in bytes while it's "unicode." Um, what's a "code point"? and what are you calling "bytes", cuz in my vocabulary, everything is stored as a set of bytes, those 8 bit things that the CPU reads and writes to ram and disk drives. > >> What I don't understand: Why do I need to encode / decode? > > Because you can't write unicode to a file, for example. A file > contains bytes and unicode has arbitrary byte representations. When > you encode unicode as UTF-8 the bytestring will look different than if > you encode it as LATIN-1. The reason this is so confusing is that > Python will **try** to do the encoding/decoding for you automatically. > This is also why the errors you see are often very confusing (if you > don't know Python is doing this under the hood). > This will make more sense once I get a grip on what a byte is. >> I get >> the feeling the error caused is a reminder "so that you know that you need to do >> the other operation later." > > if you post a little bit more of the error I can try and give some > specific suggestions for solving it. I wasn't clear exactly what code > was raising the exception you posted earlier. code that errored wasn't mine - it was Paul's, and I think he fixed it. I am back to helping flesh out your unicode talk :) Carl K From carl at personnelware.com Fri Nov 16 17:40:46 2007 From: carl at personnelware.com (Carl Karsten) Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2007 10:40:46 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] Question about last night presentation In-Reply-To: <804e5c70711160741l35a173fch433adcd7ac6c8d9e@mail.gmail.com> References: <804e5c70711160741l35a173fch433adcd7ac6c8d9e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <473DC80E.2070105@personnelware.com> Lukasz Szybalski wrote: > Hello, > Who was doing the talk about django and how not to use "from project > import XXX" but rather use path so you could reuse your project in > different websites? > > I thought I got it, but I guess today I am not so sure anymore, so I > wanted to get more details on how exactly you suppose to structure > django/turbogears/pylons apps to make them more reusable. > I think the solution is: make each component a python module, and put it in the python path. I wanted to confirm that, but never got around to asking. Carl K From kumar.mcmillan at gmail.com Fri Nov 16 17:50:13 2007 From: kumar.mcmillan at gmail.com (Kumar McMillan) Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2007 10:50:13 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] understanding unicode problems In-Reply-To: <473DC6FE.5010304@personnelware.com> References: <318993.18653.qm@web34809.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <473C75A2.8030800@personnelware.com> <473CC496.3000109@personnelware.com> <473DB23C.5040006@personnelware.com> <473DC6FE.5010304@personnelware.com> Message-ID: Carl, I'm afraid the only way to get deeper into this is to back up and soak in the fundamentals. This is a great article to start with: http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/Unicode.html ... and Pete posted some good links: http://del.icio.us/pfein/unicode If you want the answers to your questions below skip right to the Unicode section in that first article. But it is worth the full read. After that, the "real world" is the best way to learn things (for me anyway) so if you post some more code (can do that off the list too) then perhaps I can post back some solutions in code. On Nov 16, 2007 10:36 AM, Carl Karsten wrote: > Kumar McMillan wrote: > > On Nov 16, 2007 9:07 AM, Carl Karsten wrote: > >> Kumar McMillan wrote: > >>> I wrote up a little something about it when it finally clicked for me: > >>> http://farmdev.com/thoughts/23/what-i-thought-i-knew-about-unicode-in-python-amounted-to-nothing/ > >>> (I was in the same spot, I knew I *should* use UTF-8 but wasn't sure > >>> how or why or what that even implied) > >> "However, it's not always possible to work with unicode all the time because not > >> everything supports it. As just one example, you'll need to create a wrapper > >> that temporarily encodes / decodes data when reading a csv file using the > >> standard csv module." > >> > >> Is there a standard way of encoding? > > > > I suppose the standard way is to find all the boundaries of your > > application (where you accept strings from files or user input) and > > convert it all to unicode then deal with it everywhere internally as > > unicode. Whenever you need to send output to stdout, a file, > > whatever, then you encode it. > > > >> A string (unicode or not) is a bunch of bytes. unicode chars may use more than > >> one byte. > > > > unicode is actually represented internally as "code points;" it's not > > stored in bytes while it's "unicode." > > Um, what's a "code point"? and what are you calling "bytes", cuz in my > vocabulary, everything is stored as a set of bytes, those 8 bit things that the > CPU reads and writes to ram and disk drives. > > > > >> What I don't understand: Why do I need to encode / decode? > > > > Because you can't write unicode to a file, for example. A file > > contains bytes and unicode has arbitrary byte representations. When > > you encode unicode as UTF-8 the bytestring will look different than if > > you encode it as LATIN-1. The reason this is so confusing is that > > Python will **try** to do the encoding/decoding for you automatically. > > This is also why the errors you see are often very confusing (if you > > don't know Python is doing this under the hood). > > > > This will make more sense once I get a grip on what a byte is. > > > >> I get > >> the feeling the error caused is a reminder "so that you know that you need to do > >> the other operation later." > > > > if you post a little bit more of the error I can try and give some > > specific suggestions for solving it. I wasn't clear exactly what code > > was raising the exception you posted earlier. > > code that errored wasn't mine - it was Paul's, and I think he fixed it. I am > back to helping flesh out your unicode talk :) > > > Carl K > _______________________________________________ > Chicago mailing list > Chicago at python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago > From cstejerean at gmail.com Fri Nov 16 17:53:01 2007 From: cstejerean at gmail.com (Cosmin Stejerean) Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2007 10:53:01 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] understanding unicode problems In-Reply-To: <473DC6FE.5010304@personnelware.com> References: <318993.18653.qm@web34809.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <473C75A2.8030800@personnelware.com> <473CC496.3000109@personnelware.com> <473DB23C.5040006@personnelware.com> <473DC6FE.5010304@personnelware.com> Message-ID: <276266d0711160853g5d9083b6k6873e89f59704314@mail.gmail.com> > > >> A string (unicode or not) is a bunch of bytes. unicode chars may use > more than > >> one byte. > > > > unicode is actually represented internally as "code points;" it's not > > stored in bytes while it's "unicode." > > Um, what's a "code point"? and what are you calling "bytes", cuz in my > vocabulary, everything is stored as a set of bytes, those 8 bit things > that the > CPU reads and writes to ram and disk drives. Traditionally a string is stored in memory as an array of bytes. So for example this means you treat the string as an array of bytes, loop over them one byte at a time and then convert each byte individually to the ASCII character. This is what gets people in trouble with Unicode because all of a sudden a CHARACTER is anywhere between 1 and 4 bytes. And you need to start caring all of a sudden about how many bytes are in a character and big vs. little endian. This is why a unicode string is stored in memory as a set of code points and code that operates on strings operates on one code point at a time (as opposed to one byte at a time). How the code points themselves are represented in memory is something you don't need to worry about (the same way you don't really need to care how an instance of a python class is stored in memory). > > > >> What I don't understand: Why do I need to encode / decode? > > > > Because you can't write unicode to a file, for example. A file > > contains bytes and unicode has arbitrary byte representations. When > > you encode unicode as UTF-8 the bytestring will look different than if > > you encode it as LATIN-1. The reason this is so confusing is that > > Python will **try** to do the encoding/decoding for you automatically. > > This is also why the errors you see are often very confusing (if you > > don't know Python is doing this under the hood). > > > > This will make more sense once I get a grip on what a byte is. A byte is a set of 8 bits. In the days of ASCII a byte was enough to represent each character. With Unicode it's no longer the case. Because you need more than one byte to store each code point there are multiple encodings. Personally I like UTF-8 because for ASCII characters it still only uses one byte (but uses up to 4 for other Unicode characters). -- Cosmin Stejerean http://blog.offbytwo.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mail.python.org/pipermail/chicago/attachments/20071116/2ca167b7/attachment.htm From hsu.feihong at yahoo.com Fri Nov 16 18:15:16 2007 From: hsu.feihong at yahoo.com (Feihong Hsu) Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2007 09:15:16 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Chicago] understanding unicode problems In-Reply-To: <473DC6FE.5010304@personnelware.com> Message-ID: <919829.49246.qm@web34803.mail.mud.yahoo.com> I learned a lot about how to handle Unicode in Python when I gave my talk on it back in March. So clearly, the best way to understand Unicode is to give a talk on it. That's why you should give the talk, Carl. We'll be here to help you out ;-) -Feihong Carl Karsten wrote: Kumar McMillan wrote: > On Nov 16, 2007 9:07 AM, Carl Karsten wrote: >> Kumar McMillan wrote: >>> I wrote up a little something about it when it finally clicked for me: >>> http://farmdev.com/thoughts/23/what-i-thought-i-knew-about-unicode-in-python-amounted-to-nothing/ >>> (I was in the same spot, I knew I *should* use UTF-8 but wasn't sure >>> how or why or what that even implied) >> "However, it's not always possible to work with unicode all the time because not >> everything supports it. As just one example, you'll need to create a wrapper >> that temporarily encodes / decodes data when reading a csv file using the >> standard csv module." >> >> Is there a standard way of encoding? > > I suppose the standard way is to find all the boundaries of your > application (where you accept strings from files or user input) and > convert it all to unicode then deal with it everywhere internally as > unicode. Whenever you need to send output to stdout, a file, > whatever, then you encode it. > >> A string (unicode or not) is a bunch of bytes. unicode chars may use more than >> one byte. > > unicode is actually represented internally as "code points;" it's not > stored in bytes while it's "unicode." Um, what's a "code point"? and what are you calling "bytes", cuz in my vocabulary, everything is stored as a set of bytes, those 8 bit things that the CPU reads and writes to ram and disk drives. > >> What I don't understand: Why do I need to encode / decode? > > Because you can't write unicode to a file, for example. A file > contains bytes and unicode has arbitrary byte representations. When > you encode unicode as UTF-8 the bytestring will look different than if > you encode it as LATIN-1. The reason this is so confusing is that > Python will **try** to do the encoding/decoding for you automatically. > This is also why the errors you see are often very confusing (if you > don't know Python is doing this under the hood). > This will make more sense once I get a grip on what a byte is. >> I get >> the feeling the error caused is a reminder "so that you know that you need to do >> the other operation later." > > if you post a little bit more of the error I can try and give some > specific suggestions for solving it. I wasn't clear exactly what code > was raising the exception you posted earlier. code that errored wasn't mine - it was Paul's, and I think he fixed it. I am back to helping flesh out your unicode talk :) Carl K _______________________________________________ Chicago mailing list Chicago at python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago --------------------------------- Be a better sports nut! Let your teams follow you with Yahoo Mobile. Try it now. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mail.python.org/pipermail/chicago/attachments/20071116/ea46cafe/attachment.htm From carl at personnelware.com Fri Nov 16 18:20:25 2007 From: carl at personnelware.com (Carl Karsten) Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2007 11:20:25 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] understanding unicode problems In-Reply-To: <200711161122.26463.pfein@pobox.com> References: <318993.18653.qm@web34809.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <473DB23C.5040006@personnelware.com> <200711161110.48451.pfein@pobox.com> <200711161122.26463.pfein@pobox.com> Message-ID: <473DD159.3080406@personnelware.com> Pete wrote: > On Friday November 16 2007 11:10:47 am Pete wrote: >> Here's a little picture: >> >> network => str => decode => unicode => munge => encode => disk > > Oops, left out the 2nd str. Should be: > > network => str => decode => unicode => munge => encode => str => disk > huh? I am guessing the whole "what is a byte" and how python stores data in memory is still thwarting my understanding. hmm, don't really need to know "how" it is stored, just... um.. how to talk about it abstractly or something. This may be part of the unicode problem: the terms used when talking about it have different meanings to the speaker and listener. maybe. Carl K From cwebber at imagescape.com Fri Nov 16 18:23:39 2007 From: cwebber at imagescape.com (Christopher Allan Webber) Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2007 11:23:39 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] Question about last night presentation In-Reply-To: <473DC80E.2070105@personnelware.com> (Carl Karsten's message of "Fri, 16 Nov 2007 10:40:46 -0600") References: <804e5c70711160741l35a173fch433adcd7ac6c8d9e@mail.gmail.com> <473DC80E.2070105@personnelware.com> Message-ID: <6y8x4y85pg.fsf@imagepc03.rd.imagescape.com> Yes, that's exactly what I was talking about. The reason I tied it in with eggs is because... well, the way we usually set our python path is by having a setuptools/easy_install installation of packages. When you do that, you install eggs there, and either easy_install.pth will be automatically be modified, or you can manually add a line to your application's path. Of course, you don't have to use eggs/setuptools. Setting the pythonpath via an environment variable is pretty easy. Carl Karsten writes: > Lukasz Szybalski wrote: >> Hello, >> Who was doing the talk about django and how not to use "from project >> import XXX" but rather use path so you could reuse your project in >> different websites? >> >> I thought I got it, but I guess today I am not so sure anymore, so I >> wanted to get more details on how exactly you suppose to structure >> django/turbogears/pylons apps to make them more reusable. >> > > I think the solution is: make each component a python module, and put it in the > python path. I wanted to confirm that, but never got around to asking. > > Carl K > _______________________________________________ > Chicago mailing list > Chicago at python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago From carl at personnelware.com Fri Nov 16 18:27:09 2007 From: carl at personnelware.com (Carl Karsten) Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2007 11:27:09 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] understanding unicode problems In-Reply-To: <919829.49246.qm@web34803.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <919829.49246.qm@web34803.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <473DD2ED.5070708@personnelware.com> That may happen. Given that I am getting on a plane in 7 hours, don't count on it. But if it makes/breaks the proposal submission, I'll offer to help more, even to the point of taking over and doing the talk if it comes down to that. Why do I volunteer for these things? Carl K Feihong Hsu wrote: > I learned a lot about how to handle Unicode in Python when I gave my > talk on it back in March. So clearly, the best way to understand Unicode > is to give a talk on it. That's why you should give the talk, Carl. > We'll be here to help you out ;-) > > -Feihong > > */Carl Karsten /* wrote: > > Kumar McMillan wrote: > > On Nov 16, 2007 9:07 AM, Carl Karsten wrote: > >> Kumar McMillan wrote: > >>> I wrote up a little something about it when it finally clicked > for me: > >>> > http://farmdev.com/thoughts/23/what-i-thought-i-knew-about-unicode-in-python-amounted-to-nothing/ > >>> (I was in the same spot, I knew I *should* use UTF-8 but wasn't > sure > >>> how or why or what that even implied) > >> "However, it's not always possible to work with unicode all the > time because not > >> everything supports it. As just one example, you'll need to > create a wrapper > >> that temporarily encodes / decodes data when reading a csv file > using the > >> standard csv module." > >> > >> Is there a standard way of encoding? > > > > I suppose the standard way is to find all the boundaries of your > > application (where you accept strings from files or user input) and > > convert it all to unicode then deal with it everywhere internally as > > unicode. Whenever you need to send output to stdout, a file, > > whatever, then you encode it. > > > >> A string (unicode or not) is a bunch of bytes. unicode chars may > use more than > >> one byte. > > > > unicode is actually represented internally as "code points;" it's not > > stored in bytes while it's "unicode." > > Um, what's a "code point"? and what are you calling "bytes", cuz in my > vocabulary, everything is stored as a set of bytes, those 8 bit > things that the > CPU reads and writes to ram and disk drives. > > > > >> What I don't understand: Why do I need to encode / decode? > > > > Because you can't write unicode to a file, for example. A file > > contains bytes and unicode has arbitrary byte representations. When > > you encode unicode as UTF-8 the bytestring will look different > than if > > you encode it as LATIN-1. The reason this is so confusing is that > > Python will **try** to do the encoding/decoding for you > automatically. > > This is also why the errors you see are often very confusing (if you > > don't know Python is doing this under the hood). > > > > This will make more sense once I get a grip on what a byte is. > > > >> I get > >> the feeling the error caused is a reminder "so that you know > that you need to do > >> the other operation later." > > > > if you post a little bit more of the error I can try and give some > > specific suggestions for solving it. I wasn't clear exactly what code > > was raising the exception you posted earlier. > > code that errored wasn't mine - it was Paul's, and I think he fixed > it. I am > back to helping flesh out your unicode talk :) > > Carl K > _______________________________________________ > Chicago mailing list > Chicago at python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago > > > Be a better sports nut! Let your teams follow you with Yahoo Mobile. Try > it now. > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > Chicago mailing list > Chicago at python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago From carl at personnelware.com Fri Nov 16 18:30:54 2007 From: carl at personnelware.com (Carl Karsten) Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2007 11:30:54 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] understanding unicode problems In-Reply-To: References: <318993.18653.qm@web34809.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <473C75A2.8030800@personnelware.com> <473CC496.3000109@personnelware.com> <473DB23C.5040006@personnelware.com> Message-ID: <473DD3CE.4020900@personnelware.com> Another issue just popped up: Font support. I asked Paul, we volleyed some emails, and he just asked the Report-lab list: === begin == I'm looking for a set of fonts that I can distribute with Dabo's report writer (which wraps reportlab). I like FreeSans, FreeSerif, and FreeMono, but unfortunately those are GPL and so not compatible with Dabo's license. The requirements would be: + free, non-viral license + truetype + good amount of glyphs + a sans-serif, a serif, and a monotype font, with italics, bold, and bold-italic Any suggestions? I'd like there to be a basic set of fonts that we can guarantee will be available on all platforms and in all installations of Dabo, regardless of what fonts a particular user/operating system already has installed. == end == I was thinking the unicode support was now only an issue in older, un-maintained code/documents that are lingering on. apparently modern OS distributions too? Carl K From carl at personnelware.com Fri Nov 16 18:56:37 2007 From: carl at personnelware.com (Carl Karsten) Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2007 11:56:37 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] understanding unicode problems In-Reply-To: <200711161110.48451.pfein@pobox.com> References: <318993.18653.qm@web34809.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <473DB23C.5040006@personnelware.com> <200711161110.48451.pfein@pobox.com> Message-ID: <473DD9D5.4030506@personnelware.com> Pete wrote: > On Friday November 16 2007 10:07:40 am Carl Karsten wrote: >> A string (unicode or not) is a bunch of bytes. unicode chars may use more >> than one byte. What I don't understand: Why do I need to encode / decode? >> I get the feeling the error caused is a reminder "so that you know that >> you need to do the other operation later." > > I like to think of it this way: > > "Unicode is the Platonic Ideal of text; Strings are the shadows on the wall." > > Feel free to quote me. > > Unicode characters exist in some abstract heavenly place. They are about as > pure a representation of text as you could conceive - no glyphs (fonts), no > bytes, no memory representation (that you care about), nada. Unicode can > contain all characters now in existence or that will ever be. > > Here on earth, we can't write such things to disk or email them around. This > is where strings come in. Strings (more properly termed bytestrings) are > simply that - a sequence of bytes. They have an associated encoding, which > is basically the alphabet of legal bytes. The string itself doesn't know its > encoding; you either need to be told that by an external mechanism or guess > (often both). You made a leap from an abstract concept devoid of implementation details (i hope I got my terms right) to implementation details that don't seem to include how Unicode characters are handled by python, in/by objects, in memory. "no memory representation (that you care about)" - um, I do care. From what I am reading, there is some representation that can only exist in ... ram? and can not be written to disk. What, will it conger up demons or suck my drive into a black hole? If my python app has a bunch of Unicode stuff going on, and I hibernate my OS, all that Unicode stuff gets written to a disk file. So this "it can't be written to a disk file" needs to be clarified. And yes, this is all hair splitting semantics, but I think terminology assumptions it is a huge part of the problem. One of my favorite topics is Feynman Diagrams. I have 0.1 clue what the hell they represent, but I can appreciate the leap it made in that field: it greatly improved communication of concepts between people. > > encode() takes a unicode and produces a str > decode() takes a str and produces a unicode For this to help, unicode and str need to be defined better. but I think I made that clear :) We need to start a trac project to log the loose ends. I'll get right on that. someday. > > You need to supply the source/destination encoding that your working under. > The fact that both str & unicode objects have both methods in python doesn't > help things. There's a reason, but it's not very good. > > Note that most encodings have a limited alphabet and are therefore not capable > of representing the full range of unicode characters. OK, now you threw me again. the stuff is in memory. how about we invent a hex encoding that does a hexdump of whatever is in memory? What happens if you pickle one of theses suckers? yeah, this all revolves around my dis-understanding. we should just save this for march. I am going to submit a proposal: "Watch Chipy teach Unicode to the dumbest person on the planet. If Carl can be taught, you can too." > utf8 (sometimes > referred to incorrectly & unhelpfully as 'unicode') is a particular encoding > for bytestrings. It's the most comprehensive and most widely used, but it's > not the only one. Other commonly seen encodings are us-ascii, latin-8, > windows-1252. > > When coding text handling apps, I find it's best to do all of your processing > on unicode. This means *decoding* as *soon* as possible (right after > reading) and *encoding* as *late* as possible (just before writing). > > Here's a little picture: > > network => str => decode => unicode => munge => encode => disk > > Hope this helps. I've got some bookmarks at http://del.icio.us/pfein/unicode > if it's still not clear. Now your picture makes sense. From kumar.mcmillan at gmail.com Fri Nov 16 19:05:44 2007 From: kumar.mcmillan at gmail.com (Kumar McMillan) Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2007 12:05:44 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] understanding unicode problems In-Reply-To: <473DD9D5.4030506@personnelware.com> References: <318993.18653.qm@web34809.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <473DB23C.5040006@personnelware.com> <200711161110.48451.pfein@pobox.com> <473DD9D5.4030506@personnelware.com> Message-ID: On Nov 16, 2007 11:56 AM, Carl Karsten wrote: > Pete wrote: > > On Friday November 16 2007 10:07:40 am Carl Karsten wrote: > >> A string (unicode or not) is a bunch of bytes. unicode chars may use more > >> than one byte. What I don't understand: Why do I need to encode / decode? > >> I get the feeling the error caused is a reminder "so that you know that > >> you need to do the other operation later." > > > > I like to think of it this way: > > > > "Unicode is the Platonic Ideal of text; Strings are the shadows on the wall." > > > > Feel free to quote me. > > > > Unicode characters exist in some abstract heavenly place. They are about as > > pure a representation of text as you could conceive - no glyphs (fonts), no > > bytes, no memory representation (that you care about), nada. Unicode can > > contain all characters now in existence or that will ever be. > > > > Here on earth, we can't write such things to disk or email them around. This > > is where strings come in. Strings (more properly termed bytestrings) are > > simply that - a sequence of bytes. They have an associated encoding, which > > is basically the alphabet of legal bytes. The string itself doesn't know its > > encoding; you either need to be told that by an external mechanism or guess > > (often both). > > You made a leap from an abstract concept devoid of implementation details (i > hope I got my terms right) to implementation details that don't seem to include > how Unicode characters are handled by python, in/by objects, in memory. > > "no memory representation (that you care about)" - um, I do care. From what I > am reading, there is some representation that can only exist in ... ram? and > can not be written to disk. What, will it conger up demons or suck my drive > into a black hole? seriously, print this out and read it on the plane: http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/Unicode.html you will arrive at your destination all clean and snuggly feeling. > > If my python app has a bunch of Unicode stuff going on, and I hibernate my OS, > all that Unicode stuff gets written to a disk file. So this "it can't be > written to a disk file" needs to be clarified. And yes, this is all hair > splitting semantics, but I think terminology assumptions it is a huge part of > the problem. > > One of my favorite topics is Feynman Diagrams. I have 0.1 clue what the hell > they represent, but I can appreciate the leap it made in that field: it greatly > improved communication of concepts between people. > > > > > encode() takes a unicode and produces a str > > decode() takes a str and produces a unicode > > For this to help, unicode and str need to be defined better. but I think I made > that clear :) > > We need to start a trac project to log the loose ends. I'll get right on that. > someday. > > > > > > You need to supply the source/destination encoding that your working under. > > The fact that both str & unicode objects have both methods in python doesn't > > help things. There's a reason, but it's not very good. > > > > Note that most encodings have a limited alphabet and are therefore not capable > > of representing the full range of unicode characters. > > OK, now you threw me again. the stuff is in memory. how about we invent a hex > encoding that does a hexdump of whatever is in memory? > > What happens if you pickle one of theses suckers? > > yeah, this all revolves around my dis-understanding. > > we should just save this for march. I am going to submit a proposal: "Watch > Chipy teach Unicode to the dumbest person on the planet. If Carl can be taught, > you can too." > > > utf8 (sometimes > > referred to incorrectly & unhelpfully as 'unicode') is a particular encoding > > for bytestrings. It's the most comprehensive and most widely used, but it's > > not the only one. Other commonly seen encodings are us-ascii, latin-8, > > windows-1252. > > > > When coding text handling apps, I find it's best to do all of your processing > > on unicode. This means *decoding* as *soon* as possible (right after > > reading) and *encoding* as *late* as possible (just before writing). > > > > Here's a little picture: > > > > network => str => decode => unicode => munge => encode => disk > > > > Hope this helps. I've got some bookmarks at http://del.icio.us/pfein/unicode > > if it's still not clear. > > Now your picture makes sense. > > > _______________________________________________ > Chicago mailing list > Chicago at python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago > From pfein at pobox.com Fri Nov 16 19:25:55 2007 From: pfein at pobox.com (Pete) Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2007 13:25:55 -0500 Subject: [Chicago] understanding unicode problems In-Reply-To: <473DD9D5.4030506@personnelware.com> References: <318993.18653.qm@web34809.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <200711161110.48451.pfein@pobox.com> <473DD9D5.4030506@personnelware.com> Message-ID: <200711161325.55596.pfein@pobox.com> On Friday November 16 2007 12:56:37 pm Carl Karsten wrote: > "no memory representation (that you care about)" - um, I do care. From > what I am reading, there is some representation that can only exist in ... > ram? and can not be written to disk. What, will it conger up demons or > suck my drive into a black hole? Really, you'll be much happier if you just close your eyes & think of England. As Kumar notes, the whole reason we use Python is so that we don't have to think about memory layout issues. You don't go around worrying about how your Python/Java/C++/VB classes are layed out in memory, do you? This is no different. > > encode() takes a unicode and produces a str > > decode() takes a str and produces a unicode > > For this to help, unicode and str need to be defined better. but I think I > made that clear :) str == bytes. Like, the same bytes you grew up with writing BASIC on your Amiga, though dressed up sexy in OO. unicode == text. With all the nastiness of character sets & memory representation hidden so you don't have to worry about it. You can treat a str like text if you want, but that's your business. And doing so will give you encoding errors. > OK, now you threw me again. the stuff is in memory. how about we invent a > hex encoding that does a hexdump of whatever is in memory? Try GDB. Seriously, it doesn't matter how it's represented internally by Python. Heck, a Python int isn't a C int either. > What happens if you pickle one of theses suckers? It gets written in some internal binary format that pickle understands. How does a list get pickled? From within python, a unicode is composed of a sequence of 1-character unicodes. That's all you need to know to get your work done. -- Peter Fein || 773-575-0694 || pfein at pobox.com http://www.pobox.com/~pfein/ || PGP: 0xCCF6AE6B irc: pfein at freenode.net || jabber: peter.fein at gmail.com From hsu.feihong at yahoo.com Fri Nov 16 21:00:56 2007 From: hsu.feihong at yahoo.com (Feihong Hsu) Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2007 12:00:56 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Chicago] understanding unicode problems In-Reply-To: <473DD3CE.4020900@personnelware.com> Message-ID: <62978.27581.qm@web34809.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Why is this necessary? Dabo uses wxPython, which has an API for iterating through all the available fonts on the system. Put all the font names in a combobox, and let the user decide which font she wants the report to be in. If the user wants to use FreeSans, FreeSerif, etc, she can download them herself. -Feihong Carl Karsten wrote: Another issue just popped up: Font support. I asked Paul, we volleyed some emails, and he just asked the Report-lab list: === begin == I'm looking for a set of fonts that I can distribute with Dabo's report writer (which wraps reportlab). I like FreeSans, FreeSerif, and FreeMono, but unfortunately those are GPL and so not compatible with Dabo's license. The requirements would be: + free, non-viral license + truetype + good amount of glyphs + a sans-serif, a serif, and a monotype font, with italics, bold, and bold-italic Any suggestions? I'd like there to be a basic set of fonts that we can guarantee will be available on all platforms and in all installations of Dabo, regardless of what fonts a particular user/operating system already has installed. == end == I was thinking the unicode support was now only an issue in older, un-maintained code/documents that are lingering on. apparently modern OS distributions too? Carl K _______________________________________________ Chicago mailing list Chicago at python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago --------------------------------- Be a better sports nut! Let your teams follow you with Yahoo Mobile. Try it now. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mail.python.org/pipermail/chicago/attachments/20071116/67e2a36a/attachment.htm From carl at personnelware.com Fri Nov 16 21:23:35 2007 From: carl at personnelware.com (Carl Karsten) Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2007 14:23:35 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] understanding unicode problems In-Reply-To: References: <318993.18653.qm@web34809.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <473DB23C.5040006@personnelware.com> <200711161110.48451.pfein@pobox.com> <473DD9D5.4030506@personnelware.com> Message-ID: <473DFC47.80509@personnelware.com> > > seriously, print this out and read it on the plane: > http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/Unicode.html Printed and put in bag. > > you will arrive at your destination all clean and snuggly feeling. I'll let you know how it goes :) Thanks, Carl From carl at personnelware.com Fri Nov 16 22:32:37 2007 From: carl at personnelware.com (Carl Karsten) Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2007 15:32:37 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] understanding unicode problems In-Reply-To: <62978.27581.qm@web34809.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <62978.27581.qm@web34809.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <473E0C75.2060906@personnelware.com> The code is being called from a django view, which sends a pdf to the client. from dabo.dReportWriter import dReportWriter # generate the pdf in the buffer, using the layout and data rw = dReportWriter(OutputFile=buffer, ReportFormFile=xmlfile, Cursor=ds) rw.write() Carl K Feihong Hsu wrote: > Why is this necessary? Dabo uses wxPython, which has an API for > iterating through all the available fonts on the system. Put all the > font names in a combobox, and let the user decide which font she wants > the report to be in. If the user wants to use FreeSans, FreeSerif, etc, > she can download them herself. > > -Feihong > > */Carl Karsten /* wrote: > > Another issue just popped up: Font support. I asked Paul, we > volleyed some > emails, and he just asked the Report-lab list: > > === begin == > I'm looking for a set of fonts that I can distribute with Dabo's > report writer > (which wraps reportlab). I like FreeSans, FreeSerif, and FreeMono, but > unfortunately those are GPL and so not compatible with Dabo's license. > > The requirements would be: > > + free, non-viral license > + truetype > + good amount of glyphs > + a sans-serif, a serif, and a monotype font, with italics, bold, > and bold-italic > > Any suggestions? I'd like there to be a basic set of fonts that we > can guarantee > will be available on all platforms and in all installations of Dabo, > regardless > of what fonts a particular user/operating system already has installed. > == end == > > I was thinking the unicode support was now only an issue in older, > un-maintained > code/documents that are lingering on. apparently modern OS > distributions too? > > Carl K > _______________________________________________ > Chicago mailing list > Chicago at python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago > > > Be a better sports nut! Let your teams follow you with Yahoo Mobile. Try > it now. > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > Chicago mailing list > Chicago at python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago From rcriii at ramsdells.net Fri Nov 16 22:49:54 2007 From: rcriii at ramsdells.net (rcriii at ramsdells.net) Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2007 14:49:54 -0700 (MST) Subject: [Chicago] understanding unicode problems In-Reply-To: <473E0C75.2060906@personnelware.com> References: <62978.27581.qm@web34809.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <473E0C75.2060906@personnelware.com> Message-ID: <21998.12.20.83.70.1195249794.squirrel@mail.npsis.com> > The code is being called from a django view, which sends a pdf to the > client. > > from dabo.dReportWriter import dReportWriter You are mixing Django and dabo? Didn't you see the movie: HOLOVATY (urgently) Wait! Wait! There's something I forgot to tell you. KAPLAN-MOSS What? HOLOVATY (emphatic) Don't cross the frameworks. KAPLAN-MOSS Why not? HOLOVATY Trust me. It will be bad. KAPLAN-MOSS What do you mean "bad?" HOLOVATY It's hard to explain, but try to imagine all life as you know it stopping instantaneously and finding yourself confined forever in another dimension. From adrian at holovaty.com Fri Nov 16 23:20:55 2007 From: adrian at holovaty.com (Adrian Holovaty) Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2007 16:20:55 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] understanding unicode problems In-Reply-To: <21998.12.20.83.70.1195249794.squirrel@mail.npsis.com> References: <62978.27581.qm@web34809.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <473E0C75.2060906@personnelware.com> <21998.12.20.83.70.1195249794.squirrel@mail.npsis.com> Message-ID: On 11/16/07, rcriii at ramsdells.net wrote: > You are mixing Django and dabo? Didn't you see the movie: > > HOLOVATY > (urgently) > Wait! Wait! There's something I forgot to > tell you. WTF? I haven't been paying attention to this thread, but there shouldn't be any problems here. Django gives you a Unicode object, and you need to convert that to whatever encoding dabo expects. End of story. There's no magic going on here, people; it's just Python. Adrian From hsu.feihong at yahoo.com Fri Nov 16 23:09:34 2007 From: hsu.feihong at yahoo.com (Feihong Hsu) Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2007 14:09:34 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Chicago] Anyone heard of JPype? In-Reply-To: <21998.12.20.83.70.1195249794.squirrel@mail.npsis.com> Message-ID: <705350.11950.qm@web34814.mail.mud.yahoo.com> While researching for the talk proposal, I came across a Python-Java bridge called JPype. Has anyone ever heard of or used this project? Skimming through the documentation, it has pretty strange API. You have to manually start and stop the JVM. --------------------------------- Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mail.python.org/pipermail/chicago/attachments/20071116/a8899b05/attachment.htm From cstejerean at gmail.com Fri Nov 16 23:49:17 2007 From: cstejerean at gmail.com (Cosmin Stejerean) Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2007 16:49:17 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] Anyone heard of JPype? In-Reply-To: <705350.11950.qm@web34814.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <705350.11950.qm@web34814.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <03C7AFA9-D6BF-4922-BDEC-939B9573316E@gmail.com> It starts a JVM and then interfaces with it using JNI (if I recall correctly). I've heard about it from some colleagues but never used it myself. Cosmin Stejerean (m) On Nov 16, 2007, at 4:09 PM, Feihong Hsu wrote: > While researching for the talk proposal, I came across a Python-Java > bridge called JPype. Has anyone ever heard of or used this project? > Skimming through the documentation, it has pretty strange API. You > have to manually start and stop the JVM. > > Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. > _______________________________________________ > Chicago mailing list > Chicago at python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mail.python.org/pipermail/chicago/attachments/20071116/1f48a089/attachment.htm From bray at sent.com Sat Nov 17 04:45:30 2007 From: bray at sent.com (Brian Ray) Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2007 21:45:30 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] understanding unicode problems In-Reply-To: References: <62978.27581.qm@web34809.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <473E0C75.2060906@personnelware.com> <21998.12.20.83.70.1195249794.squirrel@mail.npsis.com> Message-ID: <72E1D8C2-2C8F-4118-A4ED-C2DB98AD0B20@sent.com> On Nov 16, 2007, at 4:20 PM, Adrian Holovaty wrote: > On 11/16/07, rcriii at ramsdells.net wrote: >> You are mixing Django and dabo? Didn't you see the movie: >> >> HOLOVATY >> (urgently) >> Wait! Wait! There's something I forgot to >> tell you. > > > WTF? > > I haven't been paying attention to this thread, but there shouldn't be > any problems here. RAY considers his own safety and decides to take charge. RAY (with military authority) That's it! I'm taking charge. You guys are dangerous. They yield command to him. RAY (CONT'D) Now nobody does anything unless I order you to, okay? Brian Ray bray at sent.com http://kazavoo.com/blog From kumar.mcmillan at gmail.com Sun Nov 18 21:01:38 2007 From: kumar.mcmillan at gmail.com (Kumar McMillan) Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2007 14:01:38 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] Open Social recap Message-ID: Hey everybody, great meeting. I feel like creating some games with pyglet now ;) I wrote up some blogumentation of Open Social with some code examples if anyone wants to try creating an app: http://farmdev.com/thoughts/33/how-to-get-started-writing-open-social-applications/ -Kumar From catherine.devlin at gmail.com Tue Nov 20 22:17:17 2007 From: catherine.devlin at gmail.com (Catherine Devlin) Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2007 16:17:17 -0500 Subject: [Chicago] blog badge plz kthx Message-ID: <6523e39a0711201317n6df09d41gbd9d569dfd743b2b@mail.gmail.com> Hey folks, Blogs are a crucial part of stirring up buzz for PyCon, and blog badges are a cool way to encourage people to blog. So we need a blog badge! Can somebody take charge of creating a graphic for a PyCon blog badge? (I can take it from there - embedding it in HTML and posting it for people to use.) You *may* include phrases like "PyCon 2008" and "Chicago" in the artwork, or we can relegate those to the accompanying text. If all else fails, we could just use the PyCon connected-dots snake image ( http://us.pycon.org/common/2008/website/img/snake.png ), but I think it would be more brain-catching to have something distinctive to *this* PyCon, maybe even to the Chicago location. A python wrapped around the Sears Tower? Swallowing the southern coastline of Lake Michigan? "2008" spelled with pythons? Guido van Rossum wedged between Renee Zellweger and Catherine Zeta-Jones? I dunno... get creative! -- - Catherine Devlin (publicity coordinator) http://catherinedevlin.blogspot.com/ (Apologies if you're getting this twice, because you're already on PyCon-Organizers. You *are* on PyCon-Organizers, aren't you?) From skip at pobox.com Wed Nov 21 17:31:13 2007 From: skip at pobox.com (skip at pobox.com) Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2007 10:31:13 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] Restaurant recommendations for PyCon... Message-ID: <18244.23889.270114.490402@montanaro.dyndns.org> Folks, I'm looking for restaurant recommendations for this page on the PyCon website: http://us.pycon.org/2008/chicago/restaurants/ I've seeded it with a few restaurants I am familiar with or which seem like good bets (Gale Street Inn was recommended by a colleague at work, Amitabul has a five-star rating on Metromix), but I could use more, especially anything good near the conference hotel. If you have any recommendations, send them along to me, preferrably with an address and phone number so I can reliably find them on the net. Thanks, -- Skip Montanaro - skip at pobox.com - http://www.webfast.com/~skip/ From fitz at red-bean.com Sat Nov 24 07:18:22 2007 From: fitz at red-bean.com (Brian W. Fitzpatrick) Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2007 00:18:22 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] Restaurant recommendations for PyCon... In-Reply-To: <18244.23889.270114.490402@montanaro.dyndns.org> References: <18244.23889.270114.490402@montanaro.dyndns.org> Message-ID: On Nov 21, 2007 10:31 AM, wrote: > Folks, > > I'm looking for restaurant recommendations for this page on the PyCon > website: > > http://us.pycon.org/2008/chicago/restaurants/ > > I've seeded it with a few restaurants I am familiar with or which seem like > good bets (Gale Street Inn was recommended by a colleague at work, Amitabul > has a five-star rating on Metromix), but I could use more, especially > anything good near the conference hotel. If you have any recommendations, > send them along to me, preferrably with an address and phone number so I can > reliably find them on the net. http://www.red-bean.com/fitz/restaurants.shtml Addresses and phone numbers included. :-) -Fitz From shekay at pobox.com Sat Nov 24 20:41:35 2007 From: shekay at pobox.com (sheila miguez) Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2007 13:41:35 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] Restaurant recommendations for PyCon... In-Reply-To: References: <18244.23889.270114.490402@montanaro.dyndns.org> Message-ID: I didn't add Northside restaurants because I wasn't sure that anyone would take the trouble to go there, but to amend fitz's list--I would remove Pizza D.O.C. and perhaps add Spacca Napoli. http://www.yelp.com/biz/0fFLUKl71vv3eNV2xhikEw I've only been to it a few times, so I cannot whole heartedly recommend it, but the neopolitan style I had at Pizza DOC was drowned in gooey cheese. I would also add Fiddlehead Cafe http://www.yelp.com/biz/Ykiz1UT9SO5u-y8nqDTy4A The place is amazing. Try teh blood orange salad. The wine list is compeletly wonderful and you can order flights. I normally do not whole heartedly enjoy the wine at a restaurant because I've usually had better at the wine tastings I've been to, but these guys are great. They also have some brews from http://www.unibroue.com/ On Nov 24, 2007 12:18 AM, Brian W. Fitzpatrick wrote: > On Nov 21, 2007 10:31 AM, wrote: > > Folks, > > > > I'm looking for restaurant recommendations for this page on the PyCon > > website: > > > > http://us.pycon.org/2008/chicago/restaurants/ > > > > I've seeded it with a few restaurants I am familiar with or which seem like > > good bets (Gale Street Inn was recommended by a colleague at work, Amitabul > > has a five-star rating on Metromix), but I could use more, especially > > anything good near the conference hotel. If you have any recommendations, > > send them along to me, preferrably with an address and phone number so I can > > reliably find them on the net. > > http://www.red-bean.com/fitz/restaurants.shtml > > Addresses and phone numbers included. :-) > > -Fitz > > _______________________________________________ > Chicago mailing list > Chicago at python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago > -- sheila From shekay at pobox.com Sat Nov 24 20:45:16 2007 From: shekay at pobox.com (sheila miguez) Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2007 13:45:16 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] Restaurant recommendations for PyCon... In-Reply-To: References: <18244.23889.270114.490402@montanaro.dyndns.org> Message-ID: On Nov 24, 2007 12:18 AM, Brian W. Fitzpatrick wrote: > On Nov 21, 2007 10:31 AM, wrote: > > anything good near the conference hotel. If you have any recommendations, > > send them along to me, preferrably with an address and phone number so I can > > reliably find them on the net. > > http://www.red-bean.com/fitz/restaurants.shtml > > Addresses and phone numbers included. :-) > > -Fitz I forgot to add that Lao Szechuan has a branch in Palatine. I used to go there for lunch all the time. Also, you might want to indicate neighborhoods, such as Devon and Western, Argyle and Broadway. However, I've generally had better Indian food in the Schaumburg area than on Devon except for Indian sweets. I added some chocolatiers to the list. There is also a new chocolateir on Lincoln Ave slightly north of either Lawrence of Foster that sounds really interesting. can't remember off the top of my head so I didn't add it. -- sheila From mtobis at gmail.com Sat Nov 24 21:46:18 2007 From: mtobis at gmail.com (Michael Tobis) Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2007 14:46:18 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] Restaurant recommendations for PyCon... In-Reply-To: References: <18244.23889.270114.490402@montanaro.dyndns.org> Message-ID: You might want to add some vegetarian selections. Udupi on Devon is a great South Indian vegetarian place. I know veggies who swear by the strictly vegetarian Chicago Diner, though I personally didn't care for it. Jack's for not overly pricey yuppie, er nouvelle cuisine. Very nice. Nookie's for 24 hour diner food. Wiener's Circle for the authentic Chicago dog experience. People from overseas may desperately want Mexican, possibly not as expensive as the Bayless places. I'd add El Nuevo Mexico on Clark for midrange and El Mariachi for el cheapo. All above suggestions in Lakeview, except for Udupi. mt On Nov 24, 2007 1:41 PM, sheila miguez wrote: > I didn't add Northside restaurants because I wasn't sure that anyone > would take the trouble to go there, but to amend fitz's list--I would > remove Pizza D.O.C. and perhaps add Spacca Napoli. > http://www.yelp.com/biz/0fFLUKl71vv3eNV2xhikEw > > I've only been to it a few times, so I cannot whole heartedly > recommend it, but the neopolitan style I had at Pizza DOC was drowned > in gooey cheese. > > I would also add Fiddlehead Cafe http://www.yelp.com/biz/Ykiz1UT9SO5u-y8nqDTy4A > > The place is amazing. Try teh blood orange salad. The wine list is > compeletly wonderful and you can order flights. I normally do not > whole heartedly enjoy the wine at a restaurant because I've usually > had better at the wine tastings I've been to, but these guys are > great. > > They also have some brews from http://www.unibroue.com/ > > On Nov 24, 2007 12:18 AM, Brian W. Fitzpatrick wrote: > > > On Nov 21, 2007 10:31 AM, wrote: > > > Folks, > > > > > > I'm looking for restaurant recommendations for this page on the PyCon > > > website: > > > > > > http://us.pycon.org/2008/chicago/restaurants/ > > > > > > I've seeded it with a few restaurants I am familiar with or which seem like > > > good bets (Gale Street Inn was recommended by a colleague at work, Amitabul > > > has a five-star rating on Metromix), but I could use more, especially > > > anything good near the conference hotel. If you have any recommendations, > > > send them along to me, preferrably with an address and phone number so I can > > > reliably find them on the net. > > > > http://www.red-bean.com/fitz/restaurants.shtml > > > > Addresses and phone numbers included. :-) > > > > -Fitz > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Chicago mailing list > > Chicago at python.org > > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago > > > > > > -- > sheila > > _______________________________________________ > Chicago mailing list > Chicago at python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago > From shekay at pobox.com Sun Nov 25 16:27:18 2007 From: shekay at pobox.com (sheila miguez) Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2007 09:27:18 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] Restaurant recommendations for PyCon... In-Reply-To: References: <18244.23889.270114.490402@montanaro.dyndns.org> Message-ID: On Nov 24, 2007 2:46 PM, Michael Tobis wrote: > You might want to add some vegetarian selections. > > Udupi on Devon is a great South Indian vegetarian place. There is also an Udupi in Schaumburg. -- sheila From kumar.mcmillan at gmail.com Mon Nov 26 00:45:15 2007 From: kumar.mcmillan at gmail.com (Kumar McMillan) Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2007 17:45:15 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] Restaurant recommendations for PyCon... In-Reply-To: <18244.23889.270114.490402@montanaro.dyndns.org> References: <18244.23889.270114.490402@montanaro.dyndns.org> Message-ID: On Nov 21, 2007 10:31 AM, wrote: > Folks, > > I'm looking for restaurant recommendations for this page on the PyCon > website: > > http://us.pycon.org/2008/chicago/restaurants/ > > I've seeded it with a few restaurants I am familiar with or which seem like > good bets (Gale Street Inn was recommended by a colleague at work, Amitabul > has a five-star rating on Metromix), but I could use more, especially > anything good near the conference hotel. If you have any recommendations, > send them along to me, preferrably with an address and phone number so I can > reliably find them on the net. Best Mexican I've had in Chicago: Fernando's, 3450 N. Lincoln Ave. (W. Lakeview) http://www.yelp.com/biz/rYUYa1bZswTIv6mNFrDU2g http://centerstage.net/restaurants/fernandos.html Best Indian I've had in Chicago (yes, I've been to several others on Devon) : Gaylord Fine Indian Cuisine 678 N Clark St (River North) http://chicago.metromix.com/restaurants/indian/gaylord-india-restaurant-river-north/134340/content Other places I like: Lula's Cafe (it's actually a restaurant) 2537 N Kedzie Blvd (Logan Square) http://www.lulacafe.com/ Star of Siam (Thai) 11 E. Illinois St. (North Loop) http://www.starofsiamchicago.com/ ... unfortunately none of these are near the hotel. Hmm, I think it will be tough finding *good* restaurants near the hotel. However, this search on Metromix is somewhat useful: http://chicago.metromix.com/facets/restaurants/type.listing.venue.restaurant?keywords=rosemont "Ventanas" seems to be the one with the highest rating: http://chicago.metromix.com/restaurants/bar_food/ventanas-rosemont/142845/content From tcp at mac.com Mon Nov 26 01:26:36 2007 From: tcp at mac.com (Ted Pollari) Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2007 16:26:36 -0800 Subject: [Chicago] Food Guides? (was: Re: Restaurant recommendations for PyCon...) In-Reply-To: References: <18244.23889.270114.490402@montanaro.dyndns.org> Message-ID: On Nov 25, 2007, at 3:45 PM, Kumar McMillan wrote: > ... unfortunately none of these are near the hotel. So, here's a question -- what about some of us Chicago locals offering to lead groups of people to our favorite restaurants or a 'best in genre' restaurant on one night of PyCon (or maybe a sprint night?) -- the hotel is an easy walk to a CTA stop, transportation's easy, so the rest is just getting a group together and getting to the restaurant... Is that just a silly idea or would anyone else be down for doing something like that? I dunno, I just feel like we could totally show off the fantastic variety of restaurants and other cool stuff Chicago's got to offer and help get those who want to see the city get into the city... -t From fitz at red-bean.com Mon Nov 26 05:37:12 2007 From: fitz at red-bean.com (Brian W. Fitzpatrick) Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2007 22:37:12 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] Restaurant recommendations for PyCon... In-Reply-To: References: <18244.23889.270114.490402@montanaro.dyndns.org> Message-ID: On Nov 24, 2007 1:41 PM, sheila miguez wrote: > I didn't add Northside restaurants because I wasn't sure that anyone > would take the trouble to go there, but to amend fitz's list--I would > remove Pizza D.O.C. and perhaps add Spacca Napoli. > http://www.yelp.com/biz/0fFLUKl71vv3eNV2xhikEw > > I've only been to it a few times, so I cannot whole heartedly > recommend it, but the neopolitan style I had at Pizza DOC was drowned > in gooey cheese. Weird, I've never had the Neapolitan, but every pizza I've ever had at Pizza DOC was almost identical to the pizza I used to get in Rome (I lived there for 3 years). -Fitz From hsu.feihong at yahoo.com Mon Nov 26 16:06:28 2007 From: hsu.feihong at yahoo.com (Feihong Hsu) Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2007 07:06:28 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Chicago] Food Guides? (was: Re: Restaurant recommendations for PyCon...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <785080.1796.qm@web34804.mail.mud.yahoo.com> +1 This is a pretty cool idea. I'd be up for it just to find out which restaurants are "best in genre". - Feihong Ted Pollari wrote: On Nov 25, 2007, at 3:45 PM, Kumar McMillan wrote: > ... unfortunately none of these are near the hotel. So, here's a question -- what about some of us Chicago locals offering to lead groups of people to our favorite restaurants or a 'best in genre' restaurant on one night of PyCon (or maybe a sprint night?) -- the hotel is an easy walk to a CTA stop, transportation's easy, so the rest is just getting a group together and getting to the restaurant... Is that just a silly idea or would anyone else be down for doing something like that? I dunno, I just feel like we could totally show off the fantastic variety of restaurants and other cool stuff Chicago's got to offer and help get those who want to see the city get into the city... -t _______________________________________________ Chicago mailing list Chicago at python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago --------------------------------- Be a better pen pal. Text or chat with friends inside Yahoo! Mail. See how. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mail.python.org/pipermail/chicago/attachments/20071126/2d4ce742/attachment.htm From tcp at mac.com Mon Nov 26 16:18:07 2007 From: tcp at mac.com (Ted Pollari) Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2007 07:18:07 -0800 Subject: [Chicago] Food Guides? (was: Re: Restaurant recommendations for PyCon...) In-Reply-To: <785080.1796.qm@web34804.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <785080.1796.qm@web34804.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <37035BC7-C66F-4197-8203-AA929A4E55EE@mac.com> On Nov 26, 2007, at 7:06 AM, Feihong Hsu wrote: > I'd be up for it just to find out which restaurants are "best in > genre". heh. I probably should have qualified it and said "best that we know of in genre that is close to the CTA on a budget a sane person can afford"... From garrett at mojave-corp.com Mon Nov 26 16:56:43 2007 From: garrett at mojave-corp.com (Garrett Smith) Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2007 09:56:43 -0600 (CST) Subject: [Chicago] Anyone heard of JPype? In-Reply-To: <705350.11950.qm@web34814.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <25622373.3661101196092603232.JavaMail.root@noc-106.smedia.info> I worked with it extensively a couple years back. I'd recommend it strongly if you need to plug Java into a Python app. The API is sound and the library is very high quality. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Feihong Hsu" To: "The Chicago Python Users Group" Sent: Friday, November 16, 2007 4:09:34 PM (GMT-0600) America/Chicago Subject: [Chicago] Anyone heard of JPype? _______________________________________________ Chicago mailing list Chicago at python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago From kumar.mcmillan at gmail.com Mon Nov 26 23:58:28 2007 From: kumar.mcmillan at gmail.com (Kumar McMillan) Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2007 16:58:28 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] Fwd: City Sticker Contest In-Reply-To: <1ace57420711260954r33cf006cvc75b4a430237a367@mail.gmail.com> References: <1ace57420711260954r33cf006cvc75b4a430237a367@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: It's that time of year again... (compare / contrast with last year! http://forums.tannerworld.com/showthread.php?t=9777 ) ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Chicagoans who care, Hello! The Chicago City Sticker contest voting starts today, through 5 p.m. Nov. 30. Two students I work with from CPS AAEP at Gallery 37 are in the top ten finalists! They are Michael Sansone from Whitney Young and Grace Pisula from Taft. Please follow the link below to vote. http://live.everyonecounts.com/e3/access/launch/app?uri=/app/104/185&args= Also please forward this email to other caring Chicagoans home and abroad! http://www.suntimes.com/news/metro/665862,CST-NWS-stickers25.article CPS Advanced Arts Education Program at Gallery37 Center for the Arts 66 E. Randolph Street Chicago, IL. 60601 www.37advanced.org -- Justus Roe - justusroe.com Royce - roycelove.com - myspace/royce DJWL- djwhitelightning.org - myspace/djwl Galapagos4 - galapagos4.com Email: djwhitelite at gmail From maney at two14.net Tue Nov 27 14:28:27 2007 From: maney at two14.net (Martin Maney) Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 07:28:27 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] Fwd: City Sticker Contest In-Reply-To: References: <1ace57420711260954r33cf006cvc75b4a430237a367@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20071127132827.GA15249@furrr.two14.net> I'm sorry, you seem to have confused this with AOL. This is a mailing list for the discussion of the Python programming language. On Mon, Nov 26, 2007 at 04:58:28PM -0600, Kumar McMillan wrote: > It's that time of year again... > > (compare / contrast with last year! > http://forums.tannerworld.com/showthread.php?t=9777 ) > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > > > Chicagoans who care, > Hello! > The Chicago City Sticker contest voting starts today, through 5 p.m. Nov. 30. > Two students I work with from CPS AAEP at Gallery 37 are in the top > ten finalists! > They are Michael Sansone from Whitney Young and Grace Pisula from Taft. > Please follow the link below to vote. > > http://live.everyonecounts.com/e3/access/launch/app?uri=/app/104/185&args= > > Also please forward this email to other caring Chicagoans home and abroad! > http://www.suntimes.com/news/metro/665862,CST-NWS-stickers25.article > > CPS Advanced Arts Education Program > at Gallery37 Center for the Arts > 66 E. Randolph Street > Chicago, IL. 60601 > www.37advanced.org > > -- > Justus Roe - justusroe.com > Royce - roycelove.com - myspace/royce > DJWL- djwhitelightning.org - myspace/djwl > Galapagos4 - galapagos4.com > Email: djwhitelite at gmail > _______________________________________________ > Chicago mailing list > Chicago at python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago -- Writing blog entries is like tapping out a tune on a piano, or drawing a little sketch on newsprint. Writing a book is closer to painting a mural or composing an opera. -- Charles Petzold From kumar.mcmillan at gmail.com Tue Nov 27 15:13:16 2007 From: kumar.mcmillan at gmail.com (Kumar McMillan) Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 08:13:16 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] Fwd: City Sticker Contest In-Reply-To: <20071127132827.GA15249@furrr.two14.net> References: <1ace57420711260954r33cf006cvc75b4a430237a367@mail.gmail.com> <20071127132827.GA15249@furrr.two14.net> Message-ID: On Nov 27, 2007 7:28 AM, Martin Maney wrote: > > I'm sorry, you seem to have confused this with AOL. This is a mailing > list for the discussion of the Python programming language. Ha! Good point. Sorry, I just know that all the people on the list live in Chicago (most of them) and thought they might like to vote for their next city sticker. These sticker votings don't get a lot of promotion for some reason. Anyway, the candidates aren't as nice as last year's but the winner for last year was a doosey, I thought. My hunch is that everyone who votes is in high school and they just vote for their friends. So ... get to voting! :) > > > On Mon, Nov 26, 2007 at 04:58:28PM -0600, Kumar McMillan wrote: > > It's that time of year again... > > > > (compare / contrast with last year! > > http://forums.tannerworld.com/showthread.php?t=9777 ) > > > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > > > > > > Chicagoans who care, > > Hello! > > The Chicago City Sticker contest voting starts today, through 5 p.m. Nov. 30. > > Two students I work with from CPS AAEP at Gallery 37 are in the top > > ten finalists! > > They are Michael Sansone from Whitney Young and Grace Pisula from Taft. > > Please follow the link below to vote. > > > > http://live.everyonecounts.com/e3/access/launch/app?uri=/app/104/185&args= > > > > Also please forward this email to other caring Chicagoans home and abroad! > > http://www.suntimes.com/news/metro/665862,CST-NWS-stickers25.article > > > > CPS Advanced Arts Education Program > > at Gallery37 Center for the Arts > > 66 E. Randolph Street > > Chicago, IL. 60601 > > www.37advanced.org > > > > -- > > Justus Roe - justusroe.com > > Royce - roycelove.com - myspace/royce > > DJWL- djwhitelightning.org - myspace/djwl > > Galapagos4 - galapagos4.com > > Email: djwhitelite at gmail > > _______________________________________________ > > Chicago mailing list > > Chicago at python.org > > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago > > -- > Writing blog entries is like tapping out a tune on a piano, > or drawing a little sketch on newsprint. Writing a book is > closer to painting a mural or composing an opera. -- Charles Petzold > > _______________________________________________ > Chicago mailing list > Chicago at python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago > From chris.mcavoy at gmail.com Tue Nov 27 19:55:45 2007 From: chris.mcavoy at gmail.com (Chris McAvoy) Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 12:55:45 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] Django Freebie Work Message-ID: <3096c19d0711271055ge1cfe43mb050037c1c1f054@mail.gmail.com> Hi Newish Django Developer, Have you ever wanted to build a Django website for a small record label in Chicago, for no money, and relatively low recognition? Now's your chance! A friend needs some development help. He's a web designer, so all the front end stuff is taken care of, all you have to do is implement the entire site. Everyone should have at least one music related side project to their name, that's something I believe was in the Bible. Please email me off list if you're interested in this non-paying work. Chris From hsu.feihong at yahoo.com Tue Nov 27 20:52:02 2007 From: hsu.feihong at yahoo.com (Feihong Hsu) Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 11:52:02 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Chicago] Django Freebie Work In-Reply-To: <3096c19d0711271055ge1cfe43mb050037c1c1f054@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <100331.82118.qm@web34808.mail.mud.yahoo.com> I'm willing to do it just for the experience. I'm definitely a newbie when it comes to Django, though. - Feihong Chris McAvoy wrote: Hi Newish Django Developer, Have you ever wanted to build a Django website for a small record label in Chicago, for no money, and relatively low recognition? Now's your chance! A friend needs some development help. He's a web designer, so all the front end stuff is taken care of, all you have to do is implement the entire site. Everyone should have at least one music related side project to their name, that's something I believe was in the Bible. Please email me off list if you're interested in this non-paying work. Chris _______________________________________________ Chicago mailing list Chicago at python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago --------------------------------- Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mail.python.org/pipermail/chicago/attachments/20071127/4cd7bd07/attachment.htm From jsudlow at gmail.com Wed Nov 28 22:58:37 2007 From: jsudlow at gmail.com (Jon Sudlow) Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2007 15:58:37 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] Django Freebie Work In-Reply-To: <100331.82118.qm@web34808.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <3096c19d0711271055ge1cfe43mb050037c1c1f054@mail.gmail.com> <100331.82118.qm@web34808.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: I've been studying Django all semester in my spare time and working with python exclusively. I'd love to give it a whirl. What kind of record label is it? -Jon On Nov 27, 2007 1:52 PM, Feihong Hsu wrote: > I'm willing to do it just for the experience. I'm definitely a newbie when > it comes to Django, though. > > - Feihong > > > *Chris McAvoy * wrote: > > Hi Newish Django Developer, > > Have you ever wanted to build a Django website for a small record > label in Chicago, for no money, and relatively low recognition? Now's > your chance! A friend needs some development help. He's a web > designer, so all the front end stuff is taken care of, all you have to > do is implement the entire site. > > Everyone should have at least one music related side project to their > name, that's something I believe was in the Bible. > > Please email me off list if you're interested in this non-paying work. > > Chris > _______________________________________________ > Chicago mailing list > Chicago at python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago > > > ------------------------------ > Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. > > _______________________________________________ > Chicago mailing list > Chicago at python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago > > -- Jon Sudlow 3225 Foster Avenue 221 Sohlberg Hall C.P.O 2224 Chicago, Il 60625 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mail.python.org/pipermail/chicago/attachments/20071128/6afca637/attachment.htm From szybalski at gmail.com Thu Nov 29 22:06:57 2007 From: szybalski at gmail.com (Lukasz Szybalski) Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 15:06:57 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] constant length string manipulation Message-ID: <804e5c70711291306rb3faf64wdb6a6ae521abf133@mail.gmail.com> Hello, Is there a string function in python that does the following: I need a string of length 5 char, and I will pass a longer and shorter string but I always need to get string of length 5. If my string is longer its easy: a=b[:5] but if it is shorter a=b[:5] will put empty space at the beginning. I need to to put the space at the end. Is there another line of code that can do that without if statements? a='%5s' % b works the same as a=[b:5] Any ideas? Lucas From szybalski at gmail.com Thu Nov 29 22:21:15 2007 From: szybalski at gmail.com (Lukasz Szybalski) Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 15:21:15 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] constant length string manipulation In-Reply-To: <804e5c70711291306rb3faf64wdb6a6ae521abf133@mail.gmail.com> References: <804e5c70711291306rb3faf64wdb6a6ae521abf133@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <804e5c70711291321s489888dbj9415b4411300643d@mail.gmail.com> On Nov 29, 2007 3:06 PM, Lukasz Szybalski wrote: > Hello, > Is there a string function in python that does the following: > I need a string of length 5 char, and I will pass a longer and shorter > string but I always need to get string of length 5. > If my string is longer its easy: > a=b[:5] > but if it is shorter > a=b[:5] will put empty space at the beginning. I need to to put the > space at the end. > > Is there another line of code that can do that without if statements? > > a='%5s' % b works the same as a=[b:5] Actually I figured it out a='%-5s' % b will do just what i need I would expect the first one to add empty space on the right but I guess not. Lucas > > > Any ideas? > Lucas > -- -- Vim auto completion for python http://lucasmanual.com/mywiki/FrontPage#head-8ce19b13e89893059e126b719bebe4ee32fe103c TurboGears from start to finish: http://www.lucasmanual.com/mywiki/TurboGears From pfein at pobox.com Thu Nov 29 22:28:34 2007 From: pfein at pobox.com (Pete) Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 16:28:34 -0500 Subject: [Chicago] constant length string manipulation In-Reply-To: <804e5c70711291306rb3faf64wdb6a6ae521abf133@mail.gmail.com> References: <804e5c70711291306rb3faf64wdb6a6ae521abf133@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <200711291628.35012.pfein@pobox.com> On Thursday November 29 2007 4:06:57 pm Lukasz Szybalski wrote: > Hello, > Is there a string function in python that does the following: > I need a string of length 5 char, and I will pass a longer and shorter > string but I always need to get string of length 5. > If my string is longer its easy: > a=b[:5] > but if it is shorter > a=b[:5] will put empty space at the beginning. I need to to put the > space at the end. > > Is there another line of code that can do that without if statements? > > a='%5s' % b works the same as a=[b:5] > In [4]: "foo".ljust(5, ' ') Out[4]: 'foo ' In [5]: "faaaaaaaaaaaoo".ljust(5, ' ') Out[5]: 'faaaaaaaaaaaoo' In [6]: "faaaaaaaaaaaoo".ljust(5, ' ')[:5] Out[6]: 'faaaa' -- Peter Fein || 773-575-0694 || pfein at pobox.com http://www.pobox.com/~pfein/ || PGP: 0xCCF6AE6B irc: pfein at freenode.net || jabber: peter.fein at gmail.com From cstejerean at gmail.com Thu Nov 29 22:29:43 2007 From: cstejerean at gmail.com (Cosmin Stejerean) Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 15:29:43 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] constant length string manipulation In-Reply-To: <804e5c70711291321s489888dbj9415b4411300643d@mail.gmail.com> References: <804e5c70711291306rb3faf64wdb6a6ae521abf133@mail.gmail.com> <804e5c70711291321s489888dbj9415b4411300643d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <276266d0711291329h778749bdya13099c42736b839@mail.gmail.com> b.ljust(5)[:5] This will do what you want as well. On Nov 29, 2007 3:21 PM, Lukasz Szybalski wrote: > On Nov 29, 2007 3:06 PM, Lukasz Szybalski wrote: > > Hello, > > Is there a string function in python that does the following: > > I need a string of length 5 char, and I will pass a longer and shorter > > string but I always need to get string of length 5. > > If my string is longer its easy: > > a=b[:5] > > but if it is shorter > > a=b[:5] will put empty space at the beginning. I need to to put the > > space at the end. > > > > Is there another line of code that can do that without if statements? > > > > a='%5s' % b works the same as a=[b:5] > Actually I figured it out > > a='%-5s' % b will do just what i need > > I would expect the first one to add empty space on the right but I guess > not. > > Lucas > > > > > > > Any ideas? > > Lucas > > > > > > -- > -- > Vim auto completion for python > > http://lucasmanual.com/mywiki/FrontPage#head-8ce19b13e89893059e126b719bebe4ee32fe103c > TurboGears from start to finish: > http://www.lucasmanual.com/mywiki/TurboGears > _______________________________________________ > Chicago mailing list > Chicago at python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago > -- Cosmin Stejerean http://blog.offbytwo.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mail.python.org/pipermail/chicago/attachments/20071129/65f02301/attachment.htm From carl at personnelware.com Thu Nov 29 22:38:31 2007 From: carl at personnelware.com (Carl Karsten) Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 15:38:31 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] constant length string manipulation In-Reply-To: <804e5c70711291306rb3faf64wdb6a6ae521abf133@mail.gmail.com> References: <804e5c70711291306rb3faf64wdb6a6ae521abf133@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <474F3157.9010905@personnelware.com> Lukasz Szybalski wrote: > Hello, > Is there a string function in python that does the following: > I need a string of length 5 char, and I will pass a longer and shorter > string but I always need to get string of length 5. > If my string is longer its easy: > a=b[:5] > but if it is shorter > a=b[:5] will put empty space at the beginning. um, no it won't. >>> 'abc'[:5] 'abc' > I need to to put the > space at the end. > > Is there another line of code that can do that without if statements? > >>> '%-5s'%('ab'[:5]) 'ab ' >>> '%-5s'%('abcdef'[:5]) 'abcde' >>> '%-*s'%(5,'abc'[:5]) 'abc ' >>> '%-*s'%(5,'abcdef'[:5]) 'abcde' >>> ('%s '%'abc')[:5] 'abc ' >>> ('%s '%'abcdef')[:5] 'abcde' http://docs.python.org/lib/typesseq-strings.html > a='%5s' % b works the same as a=[b:5] um, no it doesn't, even with the typo corrected. I suggest using copy/paste when copying code. (or anything else I guess.) and including the output from your tests. Carl K From ianb at colorstudy.com Thu Nov 29 22:45:37 2007 From: ianb at colorstudy.com (Ian Bicking) Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 15:45:37 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] constant length string manipulation In-Reply-To: <804e5c70711291306rb3faf64wdb6a6ae521abf133@mail.gmail.com> References: <804e5c70711291306rb3faf64wdb6a6ae521abf133@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <474F3301.6000806@colorstudy.com> Let's all hop on board! def fivespaces(s): while len(s) < 5: s += ' ' while len(s) > 5: s = s[:-1] return s You are welcome! -- Ian Bicking : ianb at colorstudy.com : http://blog.ianbicking.org From doug.harvey at gmail.com Thu Nov 29 23:08:44 2007 From: doug.harvey at gmail.com (Doug Harvey) Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 16:08:44 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] constant length string manipulation In-Reply-To: <474F3301.6000806@colorstudy.com> References: <804e5c70711291306rb3faf64wdb6a6ae521abf133@mail.gmail.com> <474F3301.6000806@colorstudy.com> Message-ID: <6717440B-8BCB-4D47-8143-91967C3AA64D@gmail.com> I believe this satisfies the requirements: >>> import os, sys, string >>> def f ( s ): ... return "%-5.5s" % s ... >>> f('doug') 'doug ' >>> f('douglas') 'dougl' >>> From ed at leafe.com Thu Nov 29 22:57:40 2007 From: ed at leafe.com (Ed Leafe) Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 16:57:40 -0500 Subject: [Chicago] constant length string manipulation In-Reply-To: <474F3301.6000806@colorstudy.com> References: <804e5c70711291306rb3faf64wdb6a6ae521abf133@mail.gmail.com> <474F3301.6000806@colorstudy.com> Message-ID: <6ADE7F26-0317-43D0-A1C4-E1C647F66021@leafe.com> On Nov 29, 2007, at 4:45 PM, Ian Bicking wrote: > def fivespaces(s): > while len(s) < 5: > s += ' ' > while len(s) > 5: > s = s[:-1] > return s Why not just: return s.ljust(5)[:5] -- Ed Leafe -- http://leafe.com -- http://dabodev.com From ianb at colorstudy.com Thu Nov 29 23:42:15 2007 From: ianb at colorstudy.com (Ian Bicking) Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 16:42:15 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] constant length string manipulation In-Reply-To: <6ADE7F26-0317-43D0-A1C4-E1C647F66021@leafe.com> References: <804e5c70711291306rb3faf64wdb6a6ae521abf133@mail.gmail.com> <474F3301.6000806@colorstudy.com> <6ADE7F26-0317-43D0-A1C4-E1C647F66021@leafe.com> Message-ID: <474F4047.2000509@colorstudy.com> Ed Leafe wrote: > On Nov 29, 2007, at 4:45 PM, Ian Bicking wrote: > >> def fivespaces(s): >> while len(s) < 5: >> s += ' ' >> while len(s) > 5: >> s = s[:-1] >> return s > > Why not just: return s.ljust(5)[:5] Because that's stupid! Now *this* is smart: PyDoc_STRVAR(pad5__doc__, "pad5 module\n"); static PyObject * pad5(PyObject *self, PyObject *args) { int s_len, i; char *s; char buf[5]; if (!PyArg_ParseTuple(args, "s#:pad5", &s, &s_len)) return NULL; strncpy(buf, s, s_len < 5 ? s_len : 5); if (s_len < 5) for (i=s_len; i<5; i++) buf[i] = ' '; return Py_BuildValue('s#', buf, 5); } static PyMethodDef methods[] = { {"pad5", pad5, METH_VARARGS, "pad5(string) ->\n\ Return the string padding or truncated to 5 characters."}, {NULL, NULL}, }; PyMODINIT_FUNC initpad5(void) { Py_InitModule3("pad5", methods, pad5__doc__); } Admittedly I have not tried compiling it. But no doubt it is *blazing fast*!!!!!!! -- Ian Bicking : ianb at colorstudy.com : http://blog.ianbicking.org From szybalski at gmail.com Fri Nov 30 16:25:22 2007 From: szybalski at gmail.com (Lukasz Szybalski) Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2007 09:25:22 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] constant length string manipulation In-Reply-To: <276266d0711291329h778749bdya13099c42736b839@mail.gmail.com> References: <804e5c70711291306rb3faf64wdb6a6ae521abf133@mail.gmail.com> <804e5c70711291321s489888dbj9415b4411300643d@mail.gmail.com> <276266d0711291329h778749bdya13099c42736b839@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <804e5c70711300725h16ed75f1o8b910362cbe19465@mail.gmail.com> On Nov 29, 2007 3:29 PM, Cosmin Stejerean wrote: > b.ljust(5)[:5] a='1234567890' or a='123' b=a.ljust(5)[:5] so I guess ljust will do. Thanks. Lucas From chris.mcavoy at gmail.com Fri Nov 30 16:52:55 2007 From: chris.mcavoy at gmail.com (Chris McAvoy) Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2007 09:52:55 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] constant length string manipulation In-Reply-To: <804e5c70711291321s489888dbj9415b4411300643d@mail.gmail.com> References: <804e5c70711291306rb3faf64wdb6a6ae521abf133@mail.gmail.com> <804e5c70711291321s489888dbj9415b4411300643d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <3096c19d0711300752i6a2b7bb6o68925dae2a3d191a@mail.gmail.com> On Nov 29, 2007 3:21 PM, Lukasz Szybalski wrote: > On Nov 29, 2007 3:06 PM, Lukasz Szybalski wrote: > > Hello, > > Is there a string function in python that does the following: > > I need a string of length 5 char, and I will pass a longer and shorter > > string but I always need to get string of length 5. > > If my string is longer its easy: This task is stupid. You should only address the "string is longer" issue, use cut (see 'man cut' if you need help), and then tell whomever is asking you to do this that it can't be done. (wipes hands, beams triumphantly) I win. Otherwise, if they insist that the "edge case" of a string shorter than five characters needs to be lengthened (do those even exist???) insist that their inflexibility is hurting the agility of your team, and demand that they find budget to hire an intern. Also, pad your estimate with acronyms, like TDD and BUTT. If they continue to give you flak, cough and say "anassholesayswhat." When they say, "what?" Laugh. Maybe try writing this in Rails. I'm pretty sure they have a template tag that says ""some string of unfathomable length".shorten_this_if_its_greater_than_five_characters_but_if_its_less_make_it_longer Notice that you don't have to import that (agile!) and you don't have to use parens (agile!). If they won't let you write it in Rails, quit. Maybe Erlang can handle this? I'm pretty sure conditional lengthening / shortening of strings is something that Functional languages do better than procedural languages. Paul Graham wrote an article about it in 1992, right before he created Ebay in Lisp. Do you use a Mac? You should. Because the Mac takes care of Strings. Automagically. Chris From jsudlow at gmail.com Fri Nov 30 20:28:37 2007 From: jsudlow at gmail.com (Jon Sudlow) Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2007 13:28:37 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] constant length string manipulation In-Reply-To: <3096c19d0711300752i6a2b7bb6o68925dae2a3d191a@mail.gmail.com> References: <804e5c70711291306rb3faf64wdb6a6ae521abf133@mail.gmail.com> <804e5c70711291321s489888dbj9415b4411300643d@mail.gmail.com> <3096c19d0711300752i6a2b7bb6o68925dae2a3d191a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: I really enjoyed Chris's Response. On Nov 30, 2007 9:52 AM, Chris McAvoy wrote: > On Nov 29, 2007 3:21 PM, Lukasz Szybalski wrote: > > On Nov 29, 2007 3:06 PM, Lukasz Szybalski wrote: > > > Hello, > > > Is there a string function in python that does the following: > > > I need a string of length 5 char, and I will pass a longer and shorter > > > string but I always need to get string of length 5. > > > If my string is longer its easy: > > This task is stupid. > > You should only address the "string is longer" issue, use cut (see > 'man cut' if you need help), and then tell whomever is asking you to > do this that it can't be done. > > (wipes hands, beams triumphantly) > > I win. > > Otherwise, if they insist that the "edge case" of a string shorter > than five characters needs to be lengthened (do those even exist???) > insist that their inflexibility is hurting the agility of your team, > and demand that they find budget to hire an intern. Also, pad your > estimate with acronyms, like TDD and BUTT. > > If they continue to give you flak, cough and say "anassholesayswhat." > When they say, "what?" Laugh. > > Maybe try writing this in Rails. I'm pretty sure they have a template > tag that says ""some string of unfathomable > > length".shorten_this_if_its_greater_than_five_characters_but_if_its_less_make_it_longer > Notice that you don't have to import that (agile!) and you don't have > to use parens (agile!). > > If they won't let you write it in Rails, quit. > > Maybe Erlang can handle this? I'm pretty sure conditional lengthening > / shortening of strings is something that Functional languages do > better than procedural languages. Paul Graham wrote an article about > it in 1992, right before he created Ebay in Lisp. > > Do you use a Mac? You should. Because the Mac takes care of Strings. > Automagically. > > Chris > _______________________________________________ > Chicago mailing list > Chicago at python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago > -- Jon Sudlow 3225 Foster Avenue 221 Sohlberg Hall C.P.O 2224 Chicago, Il 60625 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mail.python.org/pipermail/chicago/attachments/20071130/c2d201f2/attachment.htm From chris.mcavoy at gmail.com Fri Nov 30 22:44:15 2007 From: chris.mcavoy at gmail.com (Chris McAvoy) Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2007 15:44:15 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] constant length string manipulation In-Reply-To: References: <804e5c70711291306rb3faf64wdb6a6ae521abf133@mail.gmail.com> <804e5c70711291321s489888dbj9415b4411300643d@mail.gmail.com> <3096c19d0711300752i6a2b7bb6o68925dae2a3d191a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <3096c19d0711301344q2e027706ga85131927bdc333@mail.gmail.com> On Nov 30, 2007 1:28 PM, Jon Sudlow wrote: > I really enjoyed Chris's Response. Me too. From kumar.mcmillan at gmail.com Fri Nov 30 22:49:55 2007 From: kumar.mcmillan at gmail.com (Kumar McMillan) Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2007 15:49:55 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] is there really no built-in file/iter split() thing? Message-ID: [In the hope that Chris has another awesome response...] Here is another: I have a big sql file (45M) and need to iter through the statements---no fancy sql parsing, I just want the statements. Assuming open('big.sql').read().split(';') would be a dumb idea, I couldn't find anything in stdlib to do this. What am I missing? I thought the tokenize module would but I couldn't see how at first glance. def readsplit(filelike, token): """yields each chunk between tokens in contents of filelike object. For example:: >>> [c for c in readsplit(StringIO('''bad; ass; elf in ... the forest;'''), ';')] ... ['bad', ' ass', ' elf in \\nthe forest', ''] >>> [c for c in readsplit(StringIO('''; ... 1,2,3; ... and 4; and ... even 5'''), ';')] ... ['', '\\n1,2,3', '\\n and 4', ' and\\neven 5'] >>> """ buf = [] for line in filelike: buf.append(line) line = ''.join(buf) buf[:] = [] chunks = line.split(';') for chunk in chunks[:-1]: yield chunk buf.append(chunks[-1]) if len(buf): yield ''.join(buf) -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: readsplit.py Type: text/x-python Size: 976 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://mail.python.org/pipermail/chicago/attachments/20071130/b5be0dc4/attachment.py From chris.mcavoy at gmail.com Fri Nov 30 23:30:24 2007 From: chris.mcavoy at gmail.com (Chris McAvoy) Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2007 16:30:24 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] is there really no built-in file/iter split() thing? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9A51D890-1510-42FC-AA3F-DBB20405E19E@gmail.com> This works, sort of...it doesn't tokenize it just yet, it chunks it into arrays of characters up until a ; def chunker(file): chunk = [] for line in file: for c in line: #read each character from the line chunk.append(c) if c == ';': yielder = chunk chunk = [] yield yielder I refuse to write a test. In [64]: for c in chunker(open('./autoused/vendor/rails/activerecord/ test/fixtures/db_definitions/sqlite.sql')): ....: print c ....: ....: ['C', 'R', 'E', 'A', 'T', 'E', ' ', 'T', 'A', 'B', 'L', 'E', ' ', "'", 'a', 'c', 'c', 'o', 'u', 'n', 't', 's', "'", ' ', '(', '\n', ' ', ' ', "'", 'i', 'd', "'", ' ', 'I', 'N', 'T', 'E', 'G', 'E', 'R', ' ', 'P', 'R', 'I', 'M', 'A', 'R', 'Y', ' ', 'K', 'E', 'Y', ' ', 'N', 'O', 'T', ' ', 'N', 'U', 'L', 'L', ',', '\n', ' ', ' ', "'", 'f', 'i', 'r', 'm', '_', 'i', 'd', "'", ' ', 'I', 'N', 'T', 'E', 'G', 'E', 'R', ' ', 'D', 'E', 'F', 'A', 'U', 'L', 'T', ' ', 'N', 'U', 'L', 'L', ',', '\n', ' ', ' ', "'", 'c', 'r', 'e', 'd', 'i', 't', '_', 'l', 'i', 'm', 'i', 't', "'", ' ', 'I', 'N', 'T', 'E', 'G', 'E', 'R', ' ', 'D', 'E', 'F', 'A', 'U', 'L', 'T', ' ', 'N', 'U', 'L', 'L', '\n', ')', ';'] ['\n', '\n', 'C', 'R', 'E', 'A', 'T', 'E', ' ', 'T', 'A', 'B', 'L', 'E', ' ', "'", 'f', 'u', 'n', 'n', 'y', '_', 'j', 'o', 'k', 'e', 's', "'", ' ', '(', '\n', ' ', ' ', "'", 'i', 'd', "'", ' ', 'I', 'N', 'T', 'E', 'G', 'E', 'R', ' ', 'P', 'R', 'I', 'M', 'A', 'R', 'Y', ' ', 'K', 'E', 'Y', ' ', 'N', 'O', 'T', ' ', 'N', 'U', 'L', 'L', ',', '\n', ' ', ' ', "'", 'n', 'a', 'm', 'e', "'", ' ', 'T', 'E', 'X', 'T', ' ', 'D', 'E', 'F', 'A', 'U', 'L', 'T', ' ', 'N', 'U', 'L', 'L', '\n', ')', ';'] ['\n', '\n', 'C', 'R', 'E', 'A', 'T', 'E', ' ', 'T', 'A', 'B', 'L', 'E', ' ', "'", 'c', 'o', 'm', 'p', 'a', 'n', 'i', 'e', 's', "'", ' ', '(', '\n', ' ', ' ', "'", 'i', 'd', "'", ' ', 'I', 'N', 'T', 'E', 'G', 'E', 'R', ' ', 'P', 'R', 'I', 'M', 'A', 'R', 'Y', ' ', 'K', 'E', 'Y', ' ', 'N', 'O', 'T', ' ', 'N', 'U', 'L', 'L', ',', '\n', ' ', ' ', "'", 't', 'y', 'p', 'e', "'", ' ', 'V', 'A', 'R', 'C', 'H', 'A', 'R', '(', '2', '5', '5', ')', ' ', 'D', 'E', 'F', 'A', 'U', 'L', 'T', ' ', 'N', 'U', 'L', 'L', ',', '\n', ' ', ' ', "'", 'r', 'u', 'b', 'y', '_', 't', 'y', 'p', 'e', "'", ' ', 'V', 'A', 'R', 'C', 'H', 'A', 'R', '(', '2', '5', '5', ')', ' ', 'D', 'E', 'F', 'A', 'U', 'L', 'T', ' ', 'N', 'U', 'L', 'L', ',', '\n', ' ', ' ', "'", 'f', 'i', 'r', 'm', '_', 'i', 'd', "'", ' ', 'I', 'N', 'T', 'E', 'G', 'E', 'R', ' ', 'D', 'E', 'F', 'A', 'U', 'L', 'T', ' ', 'N', 'U', 'L', 'L', ',', '\n', ' ', ' ', "'", 'n', 'a', 'm', 'e', "'", ' ', 'T', 'E', 'X', 'T', ' ', 'D', 'E', 'F', 'A', 'U', 'L', 'T', ' ', 'N', 'U', 'L', 'L', ',', '\n', ' ', ' ', "'", 'c', 'l', 'i', 'e', 'n', 't', '_', 'o', 'f', "'", ' ', 'I', 'N', 'T', 'E', 'G', 'E', 'R', ' ', 'D', 'E', 'F', 'A', 'U', 'L', 'T', ' ', 'N', 'U', 'L', 'L', ',', '\n', ' ', ' ', "'", 'r', 'a', 't', 'i', 'n', 'g', "'", ' ', 'I', 'N', 'T', 'E', 'G', 'E', 'R', ' ', 'D', 'E', 'F', 'A', 'U', 'L', 'T', ' ', '1', '\n', ')', ';'] * truncated for awesomeness * On Nov 30, 2007, at 3:49 PM, Kumar McMillan wrote: > [In the hope that Chris has another awesome response...] > > Here is another: I have a big sql file (45M) and need to iter through > the statements---no fancy sql parsing, I just want the statements. > Assuming open('big.sql').read().split(';') would be a dumb idea, I > couldn't find anything in stdlib to do this. What am I missing? I > thought the tokenize module would but I couldn't see how at first > glance. > > def readsplit(filelike, token): > """yields each chunk between tokens in contents of filelike > object. > > For example:: > >>>> [c for c in readsplit(StringIO('''bad; ass; elf in > ... the forest;'''), ';')] > ... > ['bad', ' ass', ' elf in \\nthe forest', ''] >>>> [c for c in readsplit(StringIO('''; > ... 1,2,3; > ... and 4; and > ... even 5'''), ';')] > ... > ['', '\\n1,2,3', '\\n and 4', ' and\\neven 5'] >>>> > > """ > buf = [] > for line in filelike: > buf.append(line) > line = ''.join(buf) > buf[:] = [] > chunks = line.split(';') > for chunk in chunks[:-1]: > yield chunk > buf.append(chunks[-1]) > if len(buf): > yield ''.join(buf) > _______________________________________________ > Chicago mailing list > Chicago at python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago From mtobis at gmail.com Fri Nov 30 23:59:53 2007 From: mtobis at gmail.com (Michael Tobis) Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2007 16:59:53 -0600 Subject: [Chicago] is there really no built-in file/iter split() thing? In-Reply-To: <9A51D890-1510-42FC-AA3F-DBB20405E19E@gmail.com> References: <9A51D890-1510-42FC-AA3F-DBB20405E19E@gmail.com> Message-ID: def chunker(file,splitter=";"): r = c = "" while (c or not r) and (not c == splitter) c = file.read(1) r.append(c) return r I suspect I'm missing something to make this prettier, but file.read(1) seems to be the way to go through a file bytewise. mt