From carl at personnelware.com  Tue Jul  3 00:12:56 2007
From: carl at personnelware.com (Carl Karsten)
Date: Mon, 02 Jul 2007 17:12:56 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] July 12 Meeting
Message-ID: <46897868.5060108@personnelware.com>

July 12 is going to be a great meeting.  I have no idea who is speaking, or 
where. but I'm looking forward to it.

Are the people that were going to speak in June going to be able to make it?

Pretty sure we are not having it at Google, like this page says: 
http://calendars.techvenue.com/cgi-bin/techvenue.pl?CalendarName=Python

Carl K


From ianb at colorstudy.com  Tue Jul  3 00:29:58 2007
From: ianb at colorstudy.com (Ian Bicking)
Date: Mon, 02 Jul 2007 17:29:58 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] July 12 Meeting
In-Reply-To: <46897868.5060108@personnelware.com>
References: <46897868.5060108@personnelware.com>
Message-ID: <46897C66.7090507@colorstudy.com>

Carl Karsten wrote:
> July 12 is going to be a great meeting.  I have no idea who is speaking, or 
> where. but I'm looking forward to it.
> 
> Are the people that were going to speak in June going to be able to make it?

I think there were some different web-related presentations proposed. 
I'll be able to come to the next meeting, so I could chime in with a 
little something web-related too.  A preview of what the 
TurboGears-2-in-Pylons thing will mean?

Or probably more interesting to me, but only kind of web-frameworkish, I 
could do a demo of lxml.html.

-- 
Ian Bicking | ianb at colorstudy.com | http://blog.ianbicking.org
             | Write code, do good | http://topp.openplans.org/careers

From fitz at red-bean.com  Tue Jul  3 05:53:11 2007
From: fitz at red-bean.com (Brian W. Fitzpatrick)
Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2007 22:53:11 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] July 12 Meeting
In-Reply-To: <46897868.5060108@personnelware.com>
References: <46897868.5060108@personnelware.com>
Message-ID: <a5375ad50707022053u5ff4c2e6t2b4049e827f7f936@mail.gmail.com>

On 7/2/07, Carl Karsten <carl at personnelware.com> wrote:
> July 12 is going to be a great meeting.  I have no idea who is speaking, or
> where. but I'm looking forward to it.
>
> Are the people that were going to speak in June going to be able to make it?
>
> Pretty sure we are not having it at Google, like this page says:
> http://calendars.techvenue.com/cgi-bin/techvenue.pl?CalendarName=Python

Indeed, I can't host this month.  I'll see about August, but I'm not
sure about that either.  Whole lotta travelin' going on these days :-)

-Fitz

From web at holovaty.com  Tue Jul  3 06:11:15 2007
From: web at holovaty.com (Adrian Holovaty)
Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2007 23:11:15 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] Chicago office space for Python Web devs?
Message-ID: <a2eb1c260707022111g7b314bc6r5b8800ab5791ef1d@mail.gmail.com>

Hey there,

Does anybody have any leads on office space here in the city? I'm
looking for space to accommodate 4 or 5 Web developers. Bonus points
if it's near other Python folks. :-)

Please e-mail me off-list if you know of anything...Thanks!

Adrian

From harper at nata2.org  Tue Jul  3 06:20:15 2007
From: harper at nata2.org (Harper Reed)
Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2007 23:20:15 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] July 12 Meeting
In-Reply-To: <a5375ad50707022053u5ff4c2e6t2b4049e827f7f936@mail.gmail.com>
References: <46897868.5060108@personnelware.com>
	<a5375ad50707022053u5ff4c2e6t2b4049e827f7f936@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <b92ff66c0707022120t55d995c4wc5f6fa9a0a30dc34@mail.gmail.com>

There is a very good chance that I can host at skinnyCorp. The only
problem is that I have somewhat of a previous engagement with the tech
cocktail (which i think is the same day?)

However, we can certainly work it out.

On 7/2/07, Brian W. Fitzpatrick <fitz at red-bean.com> wrote:
> On 7/2/07, Carl Karsten <carl at personnelware.com> wrote:
> > July 12 is going to be a great meeting.  I have no idea who is speaking, or
> > where. but I'm looking forward to it.
> >
> > Are the people that were going to speak in June going to be able to make it?
> >
> > Pretty sure we are not having it at Google, like this page says:
> > http://calendars.techvenue.com/cgi-bin/techvenue.pl?CalendarName=Python
>
> Indeed, I can't host this month.  I'll see about August, but I'm not
> sure about that either.  Whole lotta travelin' going on these days :-)
>
> -Fitz
> _______________________________________________
> Chicago mailing list
> Chicago at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>


-- 
Harper Reed
blog: nata2.org
home: harperreed.org

From dbt at meat.net  Tue Jul  3 15:39:35 2007
From: dbt at meat.net (David Terrell)
Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2007 08:39:35 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] August ChiPy Meeting: Python on the Mac--Snakes on
	Apples
In-Reply-To: <A5DABFF6-CF00-4BF3-AEBE-604FA33A82CD@sent.com>
References: <DD19D724-CACF-4B3E-8F05-7CF3E9048611@sent.com>
	<200706211208.28618.pfein@pobox.com>
	<A5DABFF6-CF00-4BF3-AEBE-604FA33A82CD@sent.com>
Message-ID: <20070703133935.GC28730@sphinx.chicagopeoplez.org>

On Tue, Jun 26, 2007 at 11:21:27PM -0500, Brian Ray wrote:
> 
> On Jun 21, 2007, at 12:08 PM, Pete wrote:
> 
> >
> > """C4 is an indie conference for indie developers. But what does  
> > that mean?
> > Does indie always mean ?independent?? Can you work for a BigCo and  
> > still be
> > indie?"""
> 
> Here is my stab at answering some of Wolf's question. Some possible  
> definitions of indie:
> 
> * Indie 1:  Someone who is so elite, big name corps hire them as  
> consultants
> * Indie 2:  Someone who is Unemployed and do not want to admit it
> * Indie 3:  (aka Indy) someone from Indianapolis Indiana
> * Indie 4:  In the 2000s, the indie culture has had crossovers with  
> other subcultures, including alternative, art school, hippie, emo,  
> grungers, mods, and recently even metalheads. (ref http:// 
> en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indie_%28culture%29)

I'm pretty sure that, in this context, it means "uses a mac, and berates
people who don't."

-- 
David Terrell
dbt at meat.net
((meatspace)) http://meat.net/

From szybalski at gmail.com  Tue Jul  3 18:10:11 2007
From: szybalski at gmail.com (Lukasz Szybalski)
Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2007 11:10:11 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] unixodbc and python
Message-ID: <804e5c70707030910q2e2cf248jb933b9d1d6858c88@mail.gmail.com>

Hello,
Are there bindings for unixodbc in python?
I was looking for odbc support in linux, but i can't seem to find one.

Lucas

From cosmin at offbytwo.com  Tue Jul  3 18:34:11 2007
From: cosmin at offbytwo.com (Cosmin Stejerean)
Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2007 11:34:11 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] unixodbc and python
In-Reply-To: <804e5c70707030910q2e2cf248jb933b9d1d6858c88@mail.gmail.com>
References: <804e5c70707030910q2e2cf248jb933b9d1d6858c88@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <52EFA40E-BA0B-4815-83A6-56A1C8FAF522@offbytwo.com>

Have you looked at mxODBC from egenix?

Cosmin Stejerean (m)


On Jul 3, 2007, at 11:10 AM, "Lukasz Szybalski" <szybalski at gmail.com>  
wrote:

> Hello,
> Are there bindings for unixodbc in python?
> I was looking for odbc support in linux, but i can't seem to find one.
>
> Lucas
> _______________________________________________
> Chicago mailing list
> Chicago at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago

From pfein at pobox.com  Tue Jul  3 19:07:43 2007
From: pfein at pobox.com (Pete)
Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2007 12:07:43 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] unixodbc and python
In-Reply-To: <804e5c70707030910q2e2cf248jb933b9d1d6858c88@mail.gmail.com>
References: <804e5c70707030910q2e2cf248jb933b9d1d6858c88@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <200707031207.43859.pfein@pobox.com>

On Tuesday July 3 2007 11:10 am, Lukasz Szybalski wrote:
> Hello,
> Are there bindings for unixodbc in python?
> I was looking for odbc support in linux, but i can't seem to find one.

Blessed are the cheesemakers: 
http://cheeseshop.python.org/pypi?%3Aaction=search&term=odbc&submit=search

-- 
Peter Fein   ||   773-575-0694   ||   pfein at pobox.com
http://www.pobox.com/~pfein/   ||   PGP: 0xCCF6AE6B
irc: pfein at freenode.net   ||   jabber: peter.fein at gmail.com

From szybalski at gmail.com  Tue Jul  3 19:28:23 2007
From: szybalski at gmail.com (Lukasz Szybalski)
Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2007 12:28:23 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] unixodbc and python
In-Reply-To: <200707031207.43859.pfein@pobox.com>
References: <804e5c70707030910q2e2cf248jb933b9d1d6858c88@mail.gmail.com>
	<200707031207.43859.pfein@pobox.com>
Message-ID: <804e5c70707031028l7d74b9b0ub4df24434868354@mail.gmail.com>

New version of mxodbc requires you to register a trail version, or you can
buy a commercial version.

zodbcode -Is that for zope?
pyodbc seems to be supported for linux but when I was using it on windows I
was not able to connect to database files. "driver not capable"

python win32 extensions have odbc dbi that worked for me but that was on
windows.
What else is out there?
Lucas


On 7/3/07, Pete <pfein at pobox.com> wrote:
>
> On Tuesday July 3 2007 11:10 am, Lukasz Szybalski wrote:
> > Hello,
> > Are there bindings for unixodbc in python?
> > I was looking for odbc support in linux, but i can't seem to find one.
>
> Blessed are the cheesemakers:
> http://cheeseshop.python.org/pypi?%3Aaction=search&term=odbc&submit=search
>
-------------- next part --------------
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From ianb at colorstudy.com  Fri Jul  6 20:31:42 2007
From: ianb at colorstudy.com (Ian Bicking)
Date: Fri, 06 Jul 2007 13:31:42 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] July meeting?
Message-ID: <468E8A8E.2000407@colorstudy.com>

Do we have a venue for the July meeting?  Presenters?  There was several 
web-related presentations proposed for June, I thought, that were 
deferred to July.  I can also do a little lxml.html presentation.

-- 
Ian Bicking : ianb at colorstudy.com : http://blog.ianbicking.org
             : Write code, do good : http://topp.openplans.org/careers

From chris.mcavoy at gmail.com  Fri Jul  6 20:37:59 2007
From: chris.mcavoy at gmail.com (Chris McAvoy)
Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2007 13:37:59 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] July meeting?
In-Reply-To: <468E8A8E.2000407@colorstudy.com>
References: <468E8A8E.2000407@colorstudy.com>
Message-ID: <3096c19d0707061137j6184442cq5ae66a54c2476b83@mail.gmail.com>

I think we have presenters, but no venue as of now.  Also, we're up
against TechCocktail.

I don't have a venue to offer, nor do I have an idea of whom to ask.
If anyone can offer up a conference room for the meeting, that would
be pretty great.  You'd be a Python hero.

Chris

On 7/6/07, Ian Bicking <ianb at colorstudy.com> wrote:
> Do we have a venue for the July meeting?  Presenters?  There was several
> web-related presentations proposed for June, I thought, that were
> deferred to July.  I can also do a little lxml.html presentation.
>
> --
> Ian Bicking : ianb at colorstudy.com : http://blog.ianbicking.org
>              : Write code, do good : http://topp.openplans.org/careers
> _______________________________________________
> Chicago mailing list
> Chicago at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>

From adamhowitt at gmail.com  Fri Jul  6 23:08:45 2007
From: adamhowitt at gmail.com (Adam Howitt)
Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2007 16:08:45 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] July meeting?
In-Reply-To: <3096c19d0707061137j6184442cq5ae66a54c2476b83@mail.gmail.com>
References: <468E8A8E.2000407@colorstudy.com>
	<3096c19d0707061137j6184442cq5ae66a54c2476b83@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <70cd2990707061408i6dd9c316j85dc37208ad352a0@mail.gmail.com>

How many people would it need to host and what time does it run from
/to?  I might be able to get our conference room at 1 N Wacker (Wacker
at Madison).  I've been lurking a month or so here.  We're a web
application development firm of 35 people located downtown.  We do
primarily ColdFusion, some PHP, some .NET and I'm taking a look at
Django right now but am an absolute Python novice.

Adam

On 7/6/07, Chris McAvoy <chris.mcavoy at gmail.com> wrote:
> I think we have presenters, but no venue as of now.  Also, we're up
> against TechCocktail.
>
> I don't have a venue to offer, nor do I have an idea of whom to ask.
> If anyone can offer up a conference room for the meeting, that would
> be pretty great.  You'd be a Python hero.
>
> Chris
>
> On 7/6/07, Ian Bicking <ianb at colorstudy.com> wrote:
> > Do we have a venue for the July meeting?  Presenters?  There was several
> > web-related presentations proposed for June, I thought, that were
> > deferred to July.  I can also do a little lxml.html presentation.
> >
> > --
> > Ian Bicking : ianb at colorstudy.com : http://blog.ianbicking.org
> >              : Write code, do good : http://topp.openplans.org/careers
> > _______________________________________________
> > Chicago mailing list
> > Chicago at python.org
> > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
> >
> _______________________________________________
> Chicago mailing list
> Chicago at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>


-- 
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Adam Howitt
http://www.walkjogrun.net/?f
Necessity is the mother of invention.

From chris.mcavoy at gmail.com  Fri Jul  6 23:21:17 2007
From: chris.mcavoy at gmail.com (Chris McAvoy)
Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2007 16:21:17 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] July meeting?
In-Reply-To: <70cd2990707061408i6dd9c316j85dc37208ad352a0@mail.gmail.com>
References: <468E8A8E.2000407@colorstudy.com>
	<3096c19d0707061137j6184442cq5ae66a54c2476b83@mail.gmail.com>
	<70cd2990707061408i6dd9c316j85dc37208ad352a0@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <3096c19d0707061421r2840fab8u4adba35e6a511faa@mail.gmail.com>

Hi Adam,

We typically have around 10 - 20 people.  Sometimes it balloons when
we're at Google, but otherwise it's a pretty standard well behaved
crowd.

If you can host, that would be really great.  Your knowledge and love
of Python will grow rapidly, good luck will find you, karma will
reward you.  It'll be really great.

Chris

On 7/6/07, Adam Howitt <adamhowitt at gmail.com> wrote:
> How many people would it need to host and what time does it run from
> /to?  I might be able to get our conference room at 1 N Wacker (Wacker
> at Madison).  I've been lurking a month or so here.  We're a web
> application development firm of 35 people located downtown.  We do
> primarily ColdFusion, some PHP, some .NET and I'm taking a look at
> Django right now but am an absolute Python novice.
>
> Adam
>
> On 7/6/07, Chris McAvoy <chris.mcavoy at gmail.com> wrote:
> > I think we have presenters, but no venue as of now.  Also, we're up
> > against TechCocktail.
> >
> > I don't have a venue to offer, nor do I have an idea of whom to ask.
> > If anyone can offer up a conference room for the meeting, that would
> > be pretty great.  You'd be a Python hero.
> >
> > Chris
> >
> > On 7/6/07, Ian Bicking <ianb at colorstudy.com> wrote:
> > > Do we have a venue for the July meeting?  Presenters?  There was several
> > > web-related presentations proposed for June, I thought, that were
> > > deferred to July.  I can also do a little lxml.html presentation.
> > >
> > > --
> > > Ian Bicking : ianb at colorstudy.com : http://blog.ianbicking.org
> > >              : Write code, do good : http://topp.openplans.org/careers
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Chicago mailing list
> > > Chicago at python.org
> > > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
> > >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Chicago mailing list
> > Chicago at python.org
> > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
> >
>
>
> --
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> Adam Howitt
> http://www.walkjogrun.net/?f
> Necessity is the mother of invention.
> _______________________________________________
> Chicago mailing list
> Chicago at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>

From adamhowitt at gmail.com  Fri Jul  6 23:41:22 2007
From: adamhowitt at gmail.com (Adam Howitt)
Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2007 16:41:22 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] July meeting?
In-Reply-To: <3096c19d0707061421r2840fab8u4adba35e6a511faa@mail.gmail.com>
References: <468E8A8E.2000407@colorstudy.com>
	<3096c19d0707061137j6184442cq5ae66a54c2476b83@mail.gmail.com>
	<70cd2990707061408i6dd9c316j85dc37208ad352a0@mail.gmail.com>
	<3096c19d0707061421r2840fab8u4adba35e6a511faa@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <70cd2990707061441i240a127fte1198fcc3576fcd9@mail.gmail.com>

Unfortunately our conference only fits 10 comfortably and would really
struggle with 20.  I can see if we can get in at the International
Academy of Design and Technology where we host the ColdFusion User
group meetings.  They do this for free and are located at State and
Madison...

On 7/6/07, Chris McAvoy <chris.mcavoy at gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi Adam,
>
> We typically have around 10 - 20 people.  Sometimes it balloons when
> we're at Google, but otherwise it's a pretty standard well behaved
> crowd.
>
> If you can host, that would be really great.  Your knowledge and love
> of Python will grow rapidly, good luck will find you, karma will
> reward you.  It'll be really great.
>
> Chris
>
> On 7/6/07, Adam Howitt <adamhowitt at gmail.com> wrote:
> > How many people would it need to host and what time does it run from
> > /to?  I might be able to get our conference room at 1 N Wacker (Wacker
> > at Madison).  I've been lurking a month or so here.  We're a web
> > application development firm of 35 people located downtown.  We do
> > primarily ColdFusion, some PHP, some .NET and I'm taking a look at
> > Django right now but am an absolute Python novice.
> >
> > Adam
> >
> > On 7/6/07, Chris McAvoy <chris.mcavoy at gmail.com> wrote:
> > > I think we have presenters, but no venue as of now.  Also, we're up
> > > against TechCocktail.
> > >
> > > I don't have a venue to offer, nor do I have an idea of whom to ask.
> > > If anyone can offer up a conference room for the meeting, that would
> > > be pretty great.  You'd be a Python hero.
> > >
> > > Chris
> > >
> > > On 7/6/07, Ian Bicking <ianb at colorstudy.com> wrote:
> > > > Do we have a venue for the July meeting?  Presenters?  There was several
> > > > web-related presentations proposed for June, I thought, that were
> > > > deferred to July.  I can also do a little lxml.html presentation.
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > Ian Bicking : ianb at colorstudy.com : http://blog.ianbicking.org
> > > >              : Write code, do good : http://topp.openplans.org/careers
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Chicago mailing list
> > > > Chicago at python.org
> > > > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
> > > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Chicago mailing list
> > > Chicago at python.org
> > > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
> > >
> >
> >
> > --
> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> > Adam Howitt
> > http://www.walkjogrun.net/?f
> > Necessity is the mother of invention.
> > _______________________________________________
> > Chicago mailing list
> > Chicago at python.org
> > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
> >
> _______________________________________________
> Chicago mailing list
> Chicago at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>


-- 
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Adam Howitt
http://www.walkjogrun.net/?f
Necessity is the mother of invention.

From chris.mcavoy at gmail.com  Fri Jul  6 23:45:51 2007
From: chris.mcavoy at gmail.com (Chris McAvoy)
Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2007 16:45:51 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] July meeting?
In-Reply-To: <70cd2990707061441i240a127fte1198fcc3576fcd9@mail.gmail.com>
References: <468E8A8E.2000407@colorstudy.com>
	<3096c19d0707061137j6184442cq5ae66a54c2476b83@mail.gmail.com>
	<70cd2990707061408i6dd9c316j85dc37208ad352a0@mail.gmail.com>
	<3096c19d0707061421r2840fab8u4adba35e6a511faa@mail.gmail.com>
	<70cd2990707061441i240a127fte1198fcc3576fcd9@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <3096c19d0707061445l589429d0n9a09b37f6c0cb9c9@mail.gmail.com>

That would be great, thanks for looking into it.

Its entirely possible that we may be less than 10 this time, given the
relatively short planning cycle.

Chris

On 7/6/07, Adam Howitt <adamhowitt at gmail.com> wrote:
> Unfortunately our conference only fits 10 comfortably and would really
> struggle with 20.  I can see if we can get in at the International
> Academy of Design and Technology where we host the ColdFusion User
> group meetings.  They do this for free and are located at State and
> Madison...
>
> On 7/6/07, Chris McAvoy <chris.mcavoy at gmail.com> wrote:
> > Hi Adam,
> >
> > We typically have around 10 - 20 people.  Sometimes it balloons when
> > we're at Google, but otherwise it's a pretty standard well behaved
> > crowd.
> >
> > If you can host, that would be really great.  Your knowledge and love
> > of Python will grow rapidly, good luck will find you, karma will
> > reward you.  It'll be really great.
> >
> > Chris
> >
> > On 7/6/07, Adam Howitt <adamhowitt at gmail.com> wrote:
> > > How many people would it need to host and what time does it run from
> > > /to?  I might be able to get our conference room at 1 N Wacker (Wacker
> > > at Madison).  I've been lurking a month or so here.  We're a web
> > > application development firm of 35 people located downtown.  We do
> > > primarily ColdFusion, some PHP, some .NET and I'm taking a look at
> > > Django right now but am an absolute Python novice.
> > >
> > > Adam
> > >
> > > On 7/6/07, Chris McAvoy <chris.mcavoy at gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > I think we have presenters, but no venue as of now.  Also, we're up
> > > > against TechCocktail.
> > > >
> > > > I don't have a venue to offer, nor do I have an idea of whom to ask.
> > > > If anyone can offer up a conference room for the meeting, that would
> > > > be pretty great.  You'd be a Python hero.
> > > >
> > > > Chris
> > > >
> > > > On 7/6/07, Ian Bicking <ianb at colorstudy.com> wrote:
> > > > > Do we have a venue for the July meeting?  Presenters?  There was several
> > > > > web-related presentations proposed for June, I thought, that were
> > > > > deferred to July.  I can also do a little lxml.html presentation.
> > > > >
> > > > > --
> > > > > Ian Bicking : ianb at colorstudy.com : http://blog.ianbicking.org
> > > > >              : Write code, do good : http://topp.openplans.org/careers
> > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > Chicago mailing list
> > > > > Chicago at python.org
> > > > > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
> > > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Chicago mailing list
> > > > Chicago at python.org
> > > > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> > > Adam Howitt
> > > http://www.walkjogrun.net/?f
> > > Necessity is the mother of invention.
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Chicago mailing list
> > > Chicago at python.org
> > > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
> > >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Chicago mailing list
> > Chicago at python.org
> > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
> >
>
>
> --
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> Adam Howitt
> http://www.walkjogrun.net/?f
> Necessity is the mother of invention.
> _______________________________________________
> Chicago mailing list
> Chicago at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>

From garrett at mojave-corp.com  Sat Jul  7 17:20:25 2007
From: garrett at mojave-corp.com (Garrett Smith)
Date: Sat, 7 Jul 2007 11:20:25 -0400
Subject: [Chicago] July meeting?
In-Reply-To: <3096c19d0707061137j6184442cq5ae66a54c2476b83@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <2786A736E5926341A9AA6748CCDC11C22B42E7@justexch-node02.justexchange.net>

I had been slated back in June for a presentation which carried over to
July, but I'm currently swamped with work and won't be able to come up
for air for this Chipy meeting.

However, there's been talk of dancers and while my leg kicks only go a
couple feet off the ground I have a great sense of timing, especially
for the big numbers! Maybe August??

Garrett

On , chicago-bounces+garrett=mojave-corp.com at python.org wrote:

> I think we have presenters, but no venue as of now.  Also, we're up
> against TechCocktail. 
> 
> I don't have a venue to offer, nor do I have an idea of whom to ask.
> If anyone can offer up a conference room for the meeting, that would
> be pretty great.  You'd be a Python hero.
> 
> Chris
> 
> On 7/6/07, Ian Bicking <ianb at colorstudy.com> wrote:
>> Do we have a venue for the July meeting?  Presenters? There was
>> several web-related presentations proposed for June, I thought, that
>> were deferred to July.  I can also do a little lxml.html
>> presentation. 
>> 
>> --
>> Ian Bicking : ianb at colorstudy.com : http://blog.ianbicking.org
>>              : Write code, do good :
> http://topp.openplans.org/careers
>> _______________________________________________
>> Chicago mailing list
>> Chicago at python.org
>> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>> 
> _______________________________________________
> Chicago mailing list
> Chicago at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago


From bray at sent.com  Mon Jul  9 18:56:52 2007
From: bray at sent.com (Brian Ray)
Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2007 11:56:52 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] ANN July 12, 2007 Chicago Python User Group Meeting
Message-ID: <E224170D-42DE-4A4D-88EF-AEB6134CD614@sent.com>

Chicago Python User Group
=========================

There is no minute like the last one!  Come join us for our best  
meeting ever! Bring a friend.

Topics
------

* Ian Bicking demos lxml.html, a library for parsing and manipulating  
HTML.
* Chris McAvoy demos ipython1, an extension to the popular ipython  
shell that makes writing distributed applications easy.  Who needs  
Erlang?!
* Carl: Lead open discussion on Portable Django Components


Location
--------

  Barry Quadrangle Party Room in Lakeview

  849 W. Barry

  <http://tinyurl.com/yqldvu>

Barry Quad is located close to the El: Brown, Purple, and Red line  
stop at Belmont. If taking the EL, take Belmont 1/2 block west to  
Sheffield turn left (south) on Sheffield, walk two blocks South to  
Barry, turn Left on Barry, its on the right side of street (south)  
about 3/4 of the block. If you get to Walgreens, you went too far.

Metered parking may sometime be found on the East end of Barry or on  
Halsted or Sheffield.

Hit #66 on the buzzer at the entrance. Walk to the back of courtyard  
and then left to the entrance. Down the stairs and the party room is  
there. Call 773 835 9876, if you need help getting in.  If you  
remember to do so, please RSVP (bray at sent.com).

Food and drinks will be served and your welcome to bring your own.

An optional donation of $5 will help me cover cost for the room and  
food.

TODO
----

* Find a projector (Carl is looking into this)
* Find a WIFI provider (Brian R is looking into this) It is possible  
we will not have WIFI so bring presentations local.


About ChiPy
-----------

ChiPy is a group of Chicago Python Programmers, l33t, and n00bs.
Meetings are held monthly at various locations around Chicago.
Also, ChiPy is a proud sponsor of many Open Source and Educational
efforts in Chicago. Stay tuned to the mailing list for more info.

ChiPy website: <http://chipy.org>
ChiPy Mailing List: <http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago>
Python website: <http://python.org>


From dbt at meat.net  Mon Jul  9 19:32:56 2007
From: dbt at meat.net (David Terrell)
Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2007 12:32:56 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] ANN July 12, 2007 Chicago Python User Group Meeting
In-Reply-To: <E224170D-42DE-4A4D-88EF-AEB6134CD614@sent.com>
References: <E224170D-42DE-4A4D-88EF-AEB6134CD614@sent.com>
Message-ID: <20070709173256.GC5358@sphinx.chicagopeoplez.org>

On Mon, Jul 09, 2007 at 11:56:52AM -0500, Brian Ray wrote:
> Chicago Python User Group
> =========================

WHAT!

> 
> There is no minute like the last one!  Come join us for our best  
> meeting ever! Bring a friend.

WHO!

> Topics
> ------
> 
> * Ian Bicking demos lxml.html, a library for parsing and manipulating  
> HTML.
> * Chris McAvoy demos ipython1, an extension to the popular ipython  
> shell that makes writing distributed applications easy.  Who needs  
> Erlang?!
> * Carl: Lead open discussion on Portable Django Components

WHY!

> Location
> --------
> 
>   Barry Quadrangle Party Room in Lakeview
> 
>   849 W. Barry

WHERE!

> TODO
> ----

When?

-- 
David Terrell
dbt at meat.net
((meatspace)) http://meat.net/

From bray at sent.com  Mon Jul  9 19:40:52 2007
From: bray at sent.com (Brian Ray)
Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2007 12:40:52 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] ANN July 12, 2007 Chicago Python User Group Meeting
In-Reply-To: <20070709173256.GC5358@sphinx.chicagopeoplez.org>
References: <E224170D-42DE-4A4D-88EF-AEB6134CD614@sent.com>
	<20070709173256.GC5358@sphinx.chicagopeoplez.org>
Message-ID: <EC52DD75-3141-4EA6-ABA2-F2B9612096AB@sent.com>


>
> When?


7PM July 12, 2007. Second Thursday at 7pm is the default. Some may  
drop in later, but then we will laugh at them if they interrupt  
something important.

Thanks,

Brian Ray



From bradyc at google.com  Mon Jul  9 20:30:46 2007
From: bradyc at google.com (Brady Cox)
Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2007 13:30:46 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] ANN July 12, 2007 Chicago Python User Group Meeting
In-Reply-To: <EC52DD75-3141-4EA6-ABA2-F2B9612096AB@sent.com>
References: <E224170D-42DE-4A4D-88EF-AEB6134CD614@sent.com>
	<20070709173256.GC5358@sphinx.chicagopeoplez.org>
	<EC52DD75-3141-4EA6-ABA2-F2B9612096AB@sent.com>
Message-ID: <2dfd89af0707091130l52363db9xb4ae4d82daadfdf8@mail.gmail.com>

Some of us get off work at 7pm... we get off early to attend, so please
don't laugh at us... we're doing the best we can.  :-P

On 7/9/07, Brian Ray <bray at sent.com> wrote:
>
>
> >
> > When?
>
>
> 7PM July 12, 2007. Second Thursday at 7pm is the default. Some may
> drop in later, but then we will laugh at them if they interrupt
> something important.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Brian Ray
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Chicago mailing list
> Chicago at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>



-- 
Brady Cox
Google Chicago DTA
"Give me six hours to chop down a tree and I will spend the first four
sharpening the axe." - Abraham Lincoln
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From bray at sent.com  Mon Jul  9 20:49:32 2007
From: bray at sent.com (Brian Ray)
Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2007 13:49:32 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] ANN July 12, 2007 Chicago Python User Group Meeting
In-Reply-To: <2dfd89af0707091130l52363db9xb4ae4d82daadfdf8@mail.gmail.com>
References: <E224170D-42DE-4A4D-88EF-AEB6134CD614@sent.com>
	<20070709173256.GC5358@sphinx.chicagopeoplez.org>
	<EC52DD75-3141-4EA6-ABA2-F2B9612096AB@sent.com>
	<2dfd89af0707091130l52363db9xb4ae4d82daadfdf8@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <9248CC07-7AFC-4F27-A997-E64BCE21B5F3@sent.com>


On Jul 9, 2007, at 1:30 PM, Brady Cox wrote:

> Some of us get off work at 7pm... we get off early to attend, so  
> please don't laugh at us... we're doing the best we can.  :-P

Ok, nobody laugh at anyone who comes in late. In fact, someone  
mentioned we can eat when we first get there so that people can  
wonder in a little late I guess.

See you there!

Brian Ray
bray at sent.com
http://kazavoo.com/blog



From maney at two14.net  Tue Jul 10 06:36:30 2007
From: maney at two14.net (Martin Maney)
Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2007 23:36:30 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] ANN July 12, 2007 Chicago Python User Group Meeting
In-Reply-To: <9248CC07-7AFC-4F27-A997-E64BCE21B5F3@sent.com>
References: <E224170D-42DE-4A4D-88EF-AEB6134CD614@sent.com>
	<20070709173256.GC5358@sphinx.chicagopeoplez.org>
	<EC52DD75-3141-4EA6-ABA2-F2B9612096AB@sent.com>
	<2dfd89af0707091130l52363db9xb4ae4d82daadfdf8@mail.gmail.com>
	<9248CC07-7AFC-4F27-A997-E64BCE21B5F3@sent.com>
Message-ID: <20070710043630.GA14431@furrr.two14.net>

On Mon, Jul 09, 2007 at 01:49:32PM -0500, Brian Ray wrote:
> Ok, nobody laugh at anyone who comes in late. In fact, someone  
> mentioned we can eat when we first get there so that people can  
> wonder in a little late I guess.

I'm the wonderer, they call me the wonderer, ...

-- 
In software as well as in modern art,
the distinction between intentional and accidental omissions
is often difficult to make.  -- Andrew Hunt & David Thomas


From bray at sent.com  Tue Jul 10 15:43:43 2007
From: bray at sent.com (Brian Ray)
Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2007 08:43:43 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] ANN July 12, 2007 Chicago Python User Group Meeting
In-Reply-To: <E224170D-42DE-4A4D-88EF-AEB6134CD614@sent.com>
References: <E224170D-42DE-4A4D-88EF-AEB6134CD614@sent.com>
Message-ID: <027138D3-84FE-402C-8821-15A703A6337E@sent.com>

I have some temporary street parking passes if you wish to increase  
your carbon footprint and drive.

Brian Ray
bray at sent.com
http://kazavoo.com/blog



From szybalski at gmail.com  Tue Jul 10 15:59:08 2007
From: szybalski at gmail.com (Lukasz Szybalski)
Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2007 08:59:08 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] July meeting?
In-Reply-To: <3096c19d0707061137j6184442cq5ae66a54c2476b83@mail.gmail.com>
References: <468E8A8E.2000407@colorstudy.com>
	<3096c19d0707061137j6184442cq5ae66a54c2476b83@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <804e5c70707100659l3d01806fob77174da28063ff9@mail.gmail.com>

Hello,
Would you guys be interested in doing the July meeting at UIC?
(University of Illinois at Chicago) halsted/harrison aka 90-94 / 290
highway.

Current president of Association For Computing Machinery
(acm.cs.uic.edu)  which is really active organization in university CS
world would be interested in providing a room.

From: Ramon Franco <rfranc4 at uic.edu>
"Lucasz for 10-20 people the easiest room to probably get is SEO 1000
where we usually have our meetings.  Let me know if this is something
they'd be interested in"


?? Let me or let Roman Franco know if this is something you guys would
want to do?

Lucas


On 7/6/07, Chris McAvoy <chris.mcavoy at gmail.com> wrote:
> I think we have presenters, but no venue as of now.  Also, we're up
> against TechCocktail.
>
> I don't have a venue to offer, nor do I have an idea of whom to ask.
> If anyone can offer up a conference room for the meeting, that would
> be pretty great.  You'd be a Python hero.
>
> Chris
>
> On 7/6/07, Ian Bicking <ianb at colorstudy.com> wrote:
> > Do we have a venue for the July meeting?  Presenters?  There was several
> > web-related presentations proposed for June, I thought, that were
> > deferred to July.  I can also do a little lxml.html presentation.
> >
> > --
> > Ian Bicking : ianb at colorstudy.com : http://blog.ianbicking.org
> >              : Write code, do good : http://topp.openplans.org/careers
> > _______________________________________________
> > Chicago mailing list
> > Chicago at python.org
> > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
> >
> _______________________________________________
> Chicago mailing list
> Chicago at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>


-- 
-- 
Linux is not magic. It just works.
http://www.lucasmanual.com
Fax Server from start to finish:
http://www.lucasmanual.com/pdf/FaxServer.pdf

From bray at sent.com  Tue Jul 10 16:08:07 2007
From: bray at sent.com (Brian Ray)
Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2007 09:08:07 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] July meeting?
In-Reply-To: <804e5c70707100659l3d01806fob77174da28063ff9@mail.gmail.com>
References: <468E8A8E.2000407@colorstudy.com>
	<3096c19d0707061137j6184442cq5ae66a54c2476b83@mail.gmail.com>
	<804e5c70707100659l3d01806fob77174da28063ff9@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <BB892E1B-FD8B-4F11-9174-66BCA6E4A1C2@sent.com>

Lukasz:

Great!

Although, we have found a venue for this months meeting (http:// 
chipy.org). But, we have not picked a venue for next month (August).  
Does your offer stand for August 9th? BTW next months meeting is  
Snakes On Apples <http://www.chipy.org/SnakesOnApples>--developing  
with Python on the Macintosh.

Thanks so much!

Brian Ray
bray at sent.com
http://kazavoo.com/blog



From hsu.feihong at yahoo.com  Tue Jul 10 16:37:09 2007
From: hsu.feihong at yahoo.com (Feihong Hsu)
Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2007 07:37:09 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Chicago] July meeting?
In-Reply-To: <804e5c70707100659l3d01806fob77174da28063ff9@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <751431.49198.qm@web34810.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

That would be a great location for August's meeting!  It's close
enough to downtown Chicago for me to attend, and I can wander
aimlessly around the halls of UIC pretending to hear someone
narrating my life story!

- Feihong


--- Lukasz Szybalski <szybalski at gmail.com> wrote:

> Hello,
> Would you guys be interested in doing the July meeting at UIC?
> (University of Illinois at Chicago) halsted/harrison aka 90-94 /
> 290
> highway.
> 
> Current president of Association For Computing Machinery
> (acm.cs.uic.edu)  which is really active organization in university
> CS
> world would be interested in providing a room.
> 
> From: Ramon Franco <rfranc4 at uic.edu>
> "Lucasz for 10-20 people the easiest room to probably get is SEO
> 1000
> where we usually have our meetings.  Let me know if this is
> something
> they'd be interested in"
> 
> 
> ?? Let me or let Roman Franco know if this is something you guys
> would
> want to do?
> 
> Lucas
> 
> 
> On 7/6/07, Chris McAvoy <chris.mcavoy at gmail.com> wrote:
> > I think we have presenters, but no venue as of now.  Also, we're
> up
> > against TechCocktail.
> >
> > I don't have a venue to offer, nor do I have an idea of whom to
> ask.
> > If anyone can offer up a conference room for the meeting, that
> would
> > be pretty great.  You'd be a Python hero.
> >
> > Chris
> >
> > On 7/6/07, Ian Bicking <ianb at colorstudy.com> wrote:
> > > Do we have a venue for the July meeting?  Presenters?  There
> was several
> > > web-related presentations proposed for June, I thought, that
> were
> > > deferred to July.  I can also do a little lxml.html
> presentation.
> > >
> > > --
> > > Ian Bicking : ianb at colorstudy.com : http://blog.ianbicking.org
> > >              : Write code, do good :
> http://topp.openplans.org/careers
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Chicago mailing list
> > > Chicago at python.org
> > > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
> > >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Chicago mailing list
> > Chicago at python.org
> > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
> >
> 
> 
> -- 
> -- 
> Linux is not magic. It just works.
> http://www.lucasmanual.com
> Fax Server from start to finish:
> http://www.lucasmanual.com/pdf/FaxServer.pdf
> _______________________________________________
> Chicago mailing list
> Chicago at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
> 



 
____________________________________________________________________________________
It's here! Your new message!  
Get new email alerts with the free Yahoo! Toolbar.
http://tools.search.yahoo.com/toolbar/features/mail/

From carl at personnelware.com  Tue Jul 10 17:02:22 2007
From: carl at personnelware.com (Carl Karsten)
Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2007 10:02:22 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] ANN July 12, 2007 Chicago Python User Group Meeting
In-Reply-To: <027138D3-84FE-402C-8821-15A703A6337E@sent.com>
References: <E224170D-42DE-4A4D-88EF-AEB6134CD614@sent.com>
	<027138D3-84FE-402C-8821-15A703A6337E@sent.com>
Message-ID: <46939F7E.4010309@personnelware.com>

Brian Ray wrote:
> I have some temporary street parking passes if you wish to increase  
> your carbon footprint and drive.
> 

I'll bring beer on ice if I don't have to carry it more than a few miles.

What's the pass delivery protocol?

Carl K

From bray at sent.com  Tue Jul 10 18:06:14 2007
From: bray at sent.com (Brian Ray)
Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2007 11:06:14 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] ANN July 12, 2007 Chicago Python User Group Meeting
In-Reply-To: <46939F7E.4010309@personnelware.com>
References: <E224170D-42DE-4A4D-88EF-AEB6134CD614@sent.com>
	<027138D3-84FE-402C-8821-15A703A6337E@sent.com>
	<46939F7E.4010309@personnelware.com>
Message-ID: <0766EA2D-7FCB-42D6-ACD3-626B5B824D00@sent.com>


On Jul 10, 2007, at 10:02 AM, Carl Karsten wrote:

> Brian Ray wrote:
>> I have some temporary street parking passes if you wish to increase
>> your carbon footprint and drive.
>>
>
> I'll bring beer on ice if I don't have to carry it more than a few  
> miles.
>
> What's the pass delivery protocol?

I guess the best way will be, park, come get a pass, and go back and  
put the pass on your car. If you come early enough, you can call me  
on my cell 773 835 9876 and I will run a pass out to you. There is  
temporary parking spot in front of the steel door between the two  
matching Barry Quad buildings on that side of the street. If you need  
to unload something you can park there for a couple of minutes with  
your flashers on.

Brian Ray
bray at sent.com
http://kazavoo.com/blog



From maney at two14.net  Tue Jul 10 19:16:01 2007
From: maney at two14.net (Martin Maney)
Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2007 12:16:01 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] Yet another ORM for Python
Message-ID: <20070710171601.GA15804@furrr.two14.net>


Dunno anything else about it yet - just saw the announcement.

  https://storm.canonical.com/

  Storm is an object-relational mapper (ORM) for Python developed at
  Canonical. The project has been in development for more than a year
  for use in Canonical projects such as [WWW] Launchpad, and has
  recently been released as an open-source product.

-- 
vi is a microcosm of the Unix world.  Don't expect
to learn all of it at once; perhaps you shouldn't expect
to learn all of it at all.  -- Jon Lasser (Think Unix)


From deadwisdom at gmail.com  Tue Jul 10 19:31:48 2007
From: deadwisdom at gmail.com (Brantley Harris)
Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2007 12:31:48 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] Yet another ORM for Python
In-Reply-To: <20070710171601.GA15804@furrr.two14.net>
References: <20070710171601.GA15804@furrr.two14.net>
Message-ID: <694c06d60707101031p212e47cah6df944009ae29661@mail.gmail.com>

I'm not really sure what it adds to the landscape...

On 7/10/07, Martin Maney <maney at two14.net> wrote:
>
> Dunno anything else about it yet - just saw the announcement.
>
>   https://storm.canonical.com/
>
>   Storm is an object-relational mapper (ORM) for Python developed at
>   Canonical. The project has been in development for more than a year
>   for use in Canonical projects such as [WWW] Launchpad, and has
>   recently been released as an open-source product.
>
> --
> vi is a microcosm of the Unix world.  Don't expect
> to learn all of it at once; perhaps you shouldn't expect
> to learn all of it at all.  -- Jon Lasser (Think Unix)
>
> _______________________________________________
> Chicago mailing list
> Chicago at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>

From dbt at meat.net  Tue Jul 10 19:46:38 2007
From: dbt at meat.net (David Terrell)
Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2007 12:46:38 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] Yet another ORM for Python
In-Reply-To: <694c06d60707101031p212e47cah6df944009ae29661@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20070710171601.GA15804@furrr.two14.net>
	<694c06d60707101031p212e47cah6df944009ae29661@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20070710174638.GF5358@sphinx.chicagopeoplez.org>

On Tue, Jul 10, 2007 at 12:31:48PM -0500, Brantley Harris wrote:
> I'm not really sure what it adds to the landscape...
> 

I'm not a big fan of ruby, but the RoR method of interrogating the
database seems vastly superior to the java-ish "define all your 
database columns in code even though we don't have a good method
to apply changes to the database when you change your code" method


-- 
David Terrell
dbt at meat.net
((meatspace)) http://meat.net/

From chris.mcavoy at gmail.com  Tue Jul 10 20:08:41 2007
From: chris.mcavoy at gmail.com (Chris McAvoy)
Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2007 13:08:41 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] Yet another ORM for Python
In-Reply-To: <20070710174638.GF5358@sphinx.chicagopeoplez.org>
References: <20070710171601.GA15804@furrr.two14.net>
	<694c06d60707101031p212e47cah6df944009ae29661@mail.gmail.com>
	<20070710174638.GF5358@sphinx.chicagopeoplez.org>
Message-ID: <3096c19d0707101108g5f44d421i1cae4f6e09800b8e@mail.gmail.com>

On 7/10/07, David Terrell <dbt at meat.net> wrote:
> On Tue, Jul 10, 2007 at 12:31:48PM -0500, Brantley Harris wrote:
> > I'm not really sure what it adds to the landscape...
> >
>
> I'm not a big fan of ruby, but the RoR method of interrogating the
> database seems vastly superior to the java-ish "define all your
> database columns in code even though we don't have a good method
> to apply changes to the database when you change your code" method

I would have agreed with you a few months ago, but nowadays I'm a fan
of explicitly mapping database columns to objects.  It helps when you
want to change the database schema but don't want to track down all
the bits in your code you need to flip to make that happen.

I'm a big fan of the Django ORM, it has all the benefits of
ActiveRecord, with some of the flexibility of a DataMapper.  I've made
a few tries at SqlAlchemy, but I don't need the power it offers (at
least for now).  Plus, I'm a gigantic fan of the Django query api,
CoffeeMug.objects,filter(color='green').filter(handle='large')[0:10]
fits my brain like a really soft blanket.  Add to it list
comprehensions, like [mug.contents for mug in
CoffeeMug.objects,filter(color='green').filter(handle='large')[0:10]]
and you've just set me up for a week of gurgling happiness.  Great
stuff.

Plus, just as a bonus, I get really frustrated when working with Rails
and having to continually refer to a schema dump to know what my
object data methods are.  I like the explicitness of mapping.

That said, RoR ActiveRecord is really nice.  Especially the whole
'has_many :liquids', that's very cool.  And the RoR migrations are
seriously great.  I love them.

Anywho...ORM's are neat.  I wish the Django ORM were a teeny bit
easier to use outside of a Django app.  It's not impossible, and it's
not really "hard" its just kind of hacky feeling.  Purely an aesthetic
thing.

Chris

From ianb at colorstudy.com  Tue Jul 10 20:22:14 2007
From: ianb at colorstudy.com (Ian Bicking)
Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2007 13:22:14 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] Yet another ORM for Python
In-Reply-To: <20070710174638.GF5358@sphinx.chicagopeoplez.org>
References: <20070710171601.GA15804@furrr.two14.net>	<694c06d60707101031p212e47cah6df944009ae29661@mail.gmail.com>
	<20070710174638.GF5358@sphinx.chicagopeoplez.org>
Message-ID: <4693CE56.6000901@colorstudy.com>

David Terrell wrote:
> On Tue, Jul 10, 2007 at 12:31:48PM -0500, Brantley Harris wrote:
>> I'm not really sure what it adds to the landscape...
>>
> 
> I'm not a big fan of ruby, but the RoR method of interrogating the
> database seems vastly superior to the java-ish "define all your 
> database columns in code even though we don't have a good method
> to apply changes to the database when you change your code" method

FWIW, SQLObject has had this for a long time now, and I think SQLAlchemy 
kind of has it (though since it's not the ActiveRecord pattern exactly, 
there's no clear analog).

But usually you need to tweak at least some columns on the application 
side, and at that point you start having part of your persistence logic 
in Python and it starts feeling incomplete.  So it seems like everyone 
ends up moving to having everything in Python, since at worst you just 
need to enumerate your columns.  But then SQLObject has never been as 
committed to this model as RoR, so maybe they've spent more time making 
that model pleasant.

-- 
Ian Bicking : ianb at colorstudy.com : http://blog.ianbicking.org
             : Write code, do good : http://topp.openplans.org/careers

From deadwisdom at gmail.com  Tue Jul 10 20:41:03 2007
From: deadwisdom at gmail.com (Brantley Harris)
Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2007 13:41:03 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] Yet another ORM for Python
In-Reply-To: <20070710174638.GF5358@sphinx.chicagopeoplez.org>
References: <20070710171601.GA15804@furrr.two14.net>
	<694c06d60707101031p212e47cah6df944009ae29661@mail.gmail.com>
	<20070710174638.GF5358@sphinx.chicagopeoplez.org>
Message-ID: <694c06d60707101141m2f0a375dhc409b1f0950abe03@mail.gmail.com>

That's the bit that's harsh: "we don't have a good method to apply
changes to the database when you change your code".  If this could be
solved, it would be another step towards decoupling the DBMS from the
general development experience, something I would love, personally.

It's something I've been pushing for since I first saw Django.  A
while ago I started drafting plans to add this "schema evolution"
functionality but then someone took it as a Google Summer of Code
project, last year, and I haven't heard about it since.

It seems to me that a good step forward for the Django ORM would be to
rebase itself on SQLAlchemy (which I thought was in development?)
while untangling itself from the rest of the code so that the ORM
could be used better, stand-alone.

On 7/10/07, David Terrell <dbt at meat.net> wrote:
> On Tue, Jul 10, 2007 at 12:31:48PM -0500, Brantley Harris wrote:
> > I'm not really sure what it adds to the landscape...
> >
>
> I'm not a big fan of ruby, but the RoR method of interrogating the
> database seems vastly superior to the java-ish "define all your
> database columns in code even though we don't have a good method
> to apply changes to the database when you change your code" method
>
>
> --
> David Terrell
> dbt at meat.net
> ((meatspace)) http://meat.net/
> _______________________________________________
> Chicago mailing list
> Chicago at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>

From pfein at pobox.com  Tue Jul 10 21:00:08 2007
From: pfein at pobox.com (Pete)
Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2007 14:00:08 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] Yet another ORM for Python
In-Reply-To: <694c06d60707101141m2f0a375dhc409b1f0950abe03@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20070710171601.GA15804@furrr.two14.net>
	<20070710174638.GF5358@sphinx.chicagopeoplez.org>
	<694c06d60707101141m2f0a375dhc409b1f0950abe03@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <200707101400.09082.pfein@pobox.com>

On Tuesday July 10 2007 1:41 pm, Brantley Harris wrote:
> That's the bit that's harsh: "we don't have a good method to apply
> changes to the database when you change your code".  If this could be
> solved, it would be another step towards decoupling the DBMS from the
> general development experience, something I would love, personally.
>
> It's something I've been pushing for since I first saw Django.  A
> while ago I started drafting plans to add this "schema evolution"
> functionality but then someone took it as a Google Summer of Code
> project, last year, and I haven't heard about it since.

Generating schema change scripts is a very hard problem.  It's analagous to 
diffing a pickle.  There's been quite a bit of academic research done in this 
area, but not much has come of it.  IIRC, there's a windows-based schema 
migration tool for Oracle that's supposed to be decent, but it's quite 
expensive and by no means automatic.

> It seems to me that a good step forward for the Django ORM would be to
> rebase itself on SQLAlchemy (which I thought was in development?)
> while untangling itself from the rest of the code so that the ORM
> could be used better, stand-alone.

AFAIK, you're not forced to use Django's ORM and can use SQLAlchemy instead if 
you like, but you lose some of the automagic.  Also AFAIK, the Django folks 
have said they're not planning to ditch their ORM.

-- 
Peter Fein   ||   773-575-0694   ||   pfein at pobox.com
http://www.pobox.com/~pfein/   ||   PGP: 0xCCF6AE6B
irc: pfein at freenode.net   ||   jabber: peter.fein at gmail.com

From carl at personnelware.com  Tue Jul 10 21:00:52 2007
From: carl at personnelware.com (Carl Karsten)
Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2007 14:00:52 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] Yet another ORM for Python
In-Reply-To: <694c06d60707101141m2f0a375dhc409b1f0950abe03@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20070710171601.GA15804@furrr.two14.net>	<694c06d60707101031p212e47cah6df944009ae29661@mail.gmail.com>	<20070710174638.GF5358@sphinx.chicagopeoplez.org>
	<694c06d60707101141m2f0a375dhc409b1f0950abe03@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4693D764.4030000@personnelware.com>


Brantley Harris wrote:
> That's the bit that's harsh: "we don't have a good method to apply
> changes to the database when you change your code".  If this could be
> solved, it would be another step towards decoupling the DBMS from the
> general development experience, something I would love, personally.

I would love it too, but I have come to believe it is more trouble than it is 
worth.   The only time I would use it is for upgrading a live system, and even 
then I am skeptical exactly how much I would trust such a tool.    given that 
there are 'lots' of "schema diff" tools that can generate a script of ALTER 
commands, which then I can look over, I don't see much need for my development 
environment to need it.

Here is how I deal with changes during development: DROP DATABASE.  see below 
for how easy it can be.

> 
> It seems to me that a good step forward for the Django ORM would be to
> rebase itself on SQLAlchemy (which I thought was in development?)

It is, no clue how active, other than not dead yet.

Now from some blasphemy: I miss the level nuttiness that the VFP frameworks have 
hit.  the one I used had about 150 'attributes' that could be assigned to most 
things db related: the whole db, a table, a field in a view, a SP, etc.  Things 
like Data type, size, "Caption" default, (django has that, just relating) short 
caption, long caption, validation, FK Lookups that include what fields to 
display, additional fields to pull on selection, SQL fragments to use when the 
field is (not null, not empty) help text, help context ID.  There was enough 
that they ended up being stored in db tables - both the settings and 
descriptions/attribute names.  which meant the whole thing had a nifty UI. OTHO, 
much of that doesn't apply to a browser, unless you want to start doing web2.0 
stuff.   for now, I am ok with web 1.2

Carl K


#!/usr/bin/env python
# mkdbuser.py
# prints the CREATE DATABASE and GRANT commands based on the local settings.py
# ./mkdbuser.py | mysql -u root -p


# nifty trick to get ../settings
import os, sys
os.environ['DJANGO_SETTINGS_MODULE'] = 'settings'
BASE_DIR = os.path.dirname(os.path.abspath(__file__))
apppath=os.path.abspath(BASE_DIR+'/../')
sys.path.insert(0, apppath )
import settings

SQL = """
DROP DATABASE IF EXISTS %(db)s;
CREATE DATABASE %(db)s;
GRANT ALL
     ON %(db)s.*
     TO %(user)s
     IDENTIFIED BY '%(pw)s'
     with grant option;

"""

print SQL % {
     'db':settings.DATABASE_NAME,
     'user':settings.DATABASE_USER,
     'pw':settings.DATABASE_PASSWORD }

From jason at hostedlabs.com  Tue Jul 10 21:14:58 2007
From: jason at hostedlabs.com (Jason Rexilius)
Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2007 14:14:58 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] Yet another ORM for Python
In-Reply-To: <4693D764.4030000@personnelware.com>
References: <20070710171601.GA15804@furrr.two14.net>	<694c06d60707101031p212e47cah6df944009ae29661@mail.gmail.com>	<20070710174638.GF5358@sphinx.chicagopeoplez.org>	<694c06d60707101141m2f0a375dhc409b1f0950abe03@mail.gmail.com>
	<4693D764.4030000@personnelware.com>
Message-ID: <4693DAB2.7050507@hostedlabs.com>

Although my approach isn't great (and truth be told I usually am coding 
in PHP or perl) I use code generation scripts that read the schema and 
create the record classes, which I then manually tweak as needed.

I find that it minimizes the amount of code changes that I have to do to 
  deal with schema alterations while not injecting serious performance 
problems and still allowing custom handling as needed.




Carl Karsten wrote:
> Brantley Harris wrote:
>> That's the bit that's harsh: "we don't have a good method to apply
>> changes to the database when you change your code".  If this could be
>> solved, it would be another step towards decoupling the DBMS from the
>> general development experience, something I would love, personally.
> 
> I would love it too, but I have come to believe it is more trouble than it is 
> worth.   The only time I would use it is for upgrading a live system, and even 
> then I am skeptical exactly how much I would trust such a tool.    given that 
> there are 'lots' of "schema diff" tools that can generate a script of ALTER 
> commands, which then I can look over, I don't see much need for my development 
> environment to need it.
> 
> Here is how I deal with changes during development: DROP DATABASE.  see below 
> for how easy it can be.
> 
>> It seems to me that a good step forward for the Django ORM would be to
>> rebase itself on SQLAlchemy (which I thought was in development?)
> 
> It is, no clue how active, other than not dead yet.
> 
> Now from some blasphemy: I miss the level nuttiness that the VFP frameworks have 
> hit.  the one I used had about 150 'attributes' that could be assigned to most 
> things db related: the whole db, a table, a field in a view, a SP, etc.  Things 
> like Data type, size, "Caption" default, (django has that, just relating) short 
> caption, long caption, validation, FK Lookups that include what fields to 
> display, additional fields to pull on selection, SQL fragments to use when the 
> field is (not null, not empty) help text, help context ID.  There was enough 
> that they ended up being stored in db tables - both the settings and 
> descriptions/attribute names.  which meant the whole thing had a nifty UI. OTHO, 
> much of that doesn't apply to a browser, unless you want to start doing web2.0 
> stuff.   for now, I am ok with web 1.2
> 
> Carl K
> 
> 
> #!/usr/bin/env python
> # mkdbuser.py
> # prints the CREATE DATABASE and GRANT commands based on the local settings.py
> # ./mkdbuser.py | mysql -u root -p
> 
> 
> # nifty trick to get ../settings
> import os, sys
> os.environ['DJANGO_SETTINGS_MODULE'] = 'settings'
> BASE_DIR = os.path.dirname(os.path.abspath(__file__))
> apppath=os.path.abspath(BASE_DIR+'/../')
> sys.path.insert(0, apppath )
> import settings
> 
> SQL = """
> DROP DATABASE IF EXISTS %(db)s;
> CREATE DATABASE %(db)s;
> GRANT ALL
>      ON %(db)s.*
>      TO %(user)s
>      IDENTIFIED BY '%(pw)s'
>      with grant option;
> 
> """
> 
> print SQL % {
>      'db':settings.DATABASE_NAME,
>      'user':settings.DATABASE_USER,
>      'pw':settings.DATABASE_PASSWORD }
> _______________________________________________
> Chicago mailing list
> Chicago at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago

From deadwisdom at gmail.com  Tue Jul 10 22:30:22 2007
From: deadwisdom at gmail.com (Brantley Harris)
Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2007 15:30:22 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] Yet another ORM for Python
In-Reply-To: <4693D764.4030000@personnelware.com>
References: <20070710171601.GA15804@furrr.two14.net>
	<694c06d60707101031p212e47cah6df944009ae29661@mail.gmail.com>
	<20070710174638.GF5358@sphinx.chicagopeoplez.org>
	<694c06d60707101141m2f0a375dhc409b1f0950abe03@mail.gmail.com>
	<4693D764.4030000@personnelware.com>
Message-ID: <694c06d60707101330u5a7cf693k1ce98b651aa6a24@mail.gmail.com>

On 7/10/07, Carl Karsten <carl at personnelware.com> wrote:
> Here is how I deal with changes during development: DROP DATABASE.  see below
> for how easy it can be.

Ooh, nifty thanks!

> Now from some blasphemy: I miss the level nuttiness that the VFP frameworks have
> hit.  the one I used had about 150 'attributes' that could be assigned to most
> things db related: the whole db, a table, a field in a view, a SP, etc.  Things
> like Data type, size, "Caption" default, (django has that, just relating) short
> caption, long caption, validation, FK Lookups that include what fields to
> display, additional fields to pull on selection, SQL fragments to use when the
> field is (not null, not empty) help text, help context ID.  There was enough
> that they ended up being stored in db tables - both the settings and
> descriptions/attribute names.  which meant the whole thing had a nifty UI. OTHO,
> much of that doesn't apply to a browser, unless you want to start doing web2.0
> stuff.   for now, I am ok with web 1.2

Yeah, I was thinking about this a while ago, if you could represent
your models as database objects themselves, in a nice UI, then schema
evolution is a snap, as the UI can track everything you do.  But it
takes it away from the code, which is where I like it.  On the other
hand, if you could do something like this:

class Entry(modelmaker.model):
    def __str__(self):
        return self.name

And then define the actual fields for Entry in a UI, that might work...

From deadwisdom at gmail.com  Tue Jul 10 22:44:29 2007
From: deadwisdom at gmail.com (Brantley Harris)
Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2007 15:44:29 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] Yet another ORM for Python
In-Reply-To: <200707101400.09082.pfein@pobox.com>
References: <20070710171601.GA15804@furrr.two14.net>
	<20070710174638.GF5358@sphinx.chicagopeoplez.org>
	<694c06d60707101141m2f0a375dhc409b1f0950abe03@mail.gmail.com>
	<200707101400.09082.pfein@pobox.com>
Message-ID: <694c06d60707101344p12955a27h72cfb74f31cbf648@mail.gmail.com>

On 7/10/07, Pete <pfein at pobox.com> wrote:
> Generating schema change scripts is a very hard problem.  It's analagous to
> diffing a pickle.  There's been quite a bit of academic research done in this
> area, but not much has come of it.  IIRC, there's a windows-based schema
> migration tool for Oracle that's supposed to be decent, but it's quite
> expensive and by no means automatic.

Meh, as far as I'm concerned I already solved it, the best that can be
done.  The trick is that you need an intermediary step between
generating what the system thinks you want done and the actual
execution.  So essentially you have a prediction step, where the
computer figures out what should be done; a review step, where the
user makes changes to what will be done; and then finally the
execution step, where the changes are enacted.  Oh and an 'undo',
that'd probably be a good idea.

The system I created for pre-magic removal Django worked rather well
for my needs anyway.  The "prediction step" essentially created a
script that contained directives like Model.rename('New Name'),
Model.drop(), and Model.create().  The user could then edit that
script, and then once it was run it would finally enact the changes to
the schema.  It was pretty good, but a nice graphic / web interface
would be better.

> AFAIK, you're not forced to use Django's ORM and can use SQLAlchemy instead if
> you like, but you lose some of the automagic.  Also AFAIK, the Django folks
> have said they're not planning to ditch their ORM.

No, there was an idea floating around to make SQLAlchemy the engine,
if you will, of the Django ORM.  So you could have the best of both
worlds.  SQLAlchemy is already split up between its SQL-handler and
its ORM, Django would merely replace that ORM part.

From chris.mcavoy at gmail.com  Tue Jul 10 23:34:33 2007
From: chris.mcavoy at gmail.com (Chris McAvoy)
Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2007 16:34:33 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] Yet another ORM for Python
In-Reply-To: <694c06d60707101344p12955a27h72cfb74f31cbf648@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20070710171601.GA15804@furrr.two14.net>
	<20070710174638.GF5358@sphinx.chicagopeoplez.org>
	<694c06d60707101141m2f0a375dhc409b1f0950abe03@mail.gmail.com>
	<200707101400.09082.pfein@pobox.com>
	<694c06d60707101344p12955a27h72cfb74f31cbf648@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <3096c19d0707101434k64857098sf88adff8a1e56137@mail.gmail.com>

On 7/10/07, Brantley Harris <deadwisdom at gmail.com> wrote:
> > AFAIK, you're not forced to use Django's ORM and can use SQLAlchemy instead if
> > you like, but you lose some of the automagic.  Also AFAIK, the Django folks
> > have said they're not planning to ditch their ORM.
>
> No, there was an idea floating around to make SQLAlchemy the engine,
> if you will, of the Django ORM.  So you could have the best of both
> worlds.  SQLAlchemy is already split up between its SQL-handler and
> its ORM, Django would merely replace that ORM part.

Yeah, this is a really neat idea.  I hope it happens one of these days.

Chris

From carl at personnelware.com  Wed Jul 11 06:05:47 2007
From: carl at personnelware.com (Carl Karsten)
Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2007 23:05:47 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] Yet another ORM for Python
In-Reply-To: <694c06d60707101330u5a7cf693k1ce98b651aa6a24@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20070710171601.GA15804@furrr.two14.net>	<694c06d60707101031p212e47cah6df944009ae29661@mail.gmail.com>	<20070710174638.GF5358@sphinx.chicagopeoplez.org>	<694c06d60707101141m2f0a375dhc409b1f0950abe03@mail.gmail.com>	<4693D764.4030000@personnelware.com>
	<694c06d60707101330u5a7cf693k1ce98b651aa6a24@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4694571B.9040507@personnelware.com>

Brantley Harris wrote:
> On 7/10/07, Carl Karsten <carl at personnelware.com> wrote:
>> Here is how I deal with changes during development: DROP DATABASE.  see below
>> for how easy it can be.
> 
> Ooh, nifty thanks!
> 
>> Now from some blasphemy: I miss the level nuttiness that the VFP frameworks have
>> hit.  the one I used had about 150 'attributes' that could be assigned to most
>> things db related: the whole db, a table, a field in a view, a SP, etc.  Things
>> like Data type, size, "Caption" default, (django has that, just relating) short
>> caption, long caption, validation, FK Lookups that include what fields to
>> display, additional fields to pull on selection, SQL fragments to use when the
>> field is (not null, not empty) help text, help context ID.  There was enough
>> that they ended up being stored in db tables - both the settings and
>> descriptions/attribute names.  which meant the whole thing had a nifty UI. OTHO,
>> much of that doesn't apply to a browser, unless you want to start doing web2.0
>> stuff.   for now, I am ok with web 1.2
> 
> Yeah, I was thinking about this a while ago, if you could represent
> your models as database objects themselves, in a nice UI, then schema
> evolution is a snap, as the UI can track everything you do.  But it
> takes it away from the code, which is where I like it. 

meh - lists of this=that is more config than code.  even
contact = models.ForeignKey(User,
is just a config.  There isn't any algorithm being implemented.

OTOH, it does let you put code code 'right there', like def full_name: return 
first + last.

 > On the other
> hand, if you could do something like this:
> 
> class Entry(modelmaker.model):
>     def __str__(self):
>         return self.name
> 
> And then define the actual fields for Entry in a UI, that might work...

I don't get the code, but the text sounds right...

Carl K

From goodger at python.org  Wed Jul 11 15:39:22 2007
From: goodger at python.org (David Goodger)
Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2007 09:39:22 -0400
Subject: [Chicago] PyCon Organizers' Meeting
In-Reply-To: <469449FA.2050503@python.org>
References: <469449FA.2050503@python.org>
Message-ID: <4335d2c40707110639h33534d85p6445725b3f8ff2cb@mail.gmail.com>

I'd like to hold the inaugural organizers' meeting for PyCon 2008 on
Tuesday, July 17, at 2PM Eastern/1PM Central/11AM Pacific (6PM UTC).
Further meetings will be every other week.

The meetings will be held via Google Talk/Jabber (group chat).  We'll
use the 'pycon' room on conference.jabber.org.

Agenda:

* Staff roles
* Keynote speakers
* PyCon tech
* Chicago visit

Please send any further agenda items to me, or edit the wiki page:
http://wiki.python.org/moin/PyCon2008/OrganizersMeetings

See you there!

David Goodger
PyCon 2008 Chair
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From carl at personnelware.com  Wed Jul 11 15:50:29 2007
From: carl at personnelware.com (Carl Karsten)
Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2007 08:50:29 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] ANN July 12, 2007 Chicago Python User Group Meeting
In-Reply-To: <0766EA2D-7FCB-42D6-ACD3-626B5B824D00@sent.com>
References: <E224170D-42DE-4A4D-88EF-AEB6134CD614@sent.com>	<027138D3-84FE-402C-8821-15A703A6337E@sent.com>	<46939F7E.4010309@personnelware.com>
	<0766EA2D-7FCB-42D6-ACD3-626B5B824D00@sent.com>
Message-ID: <4694E025.70502@personnelware.com>

Brian Ray wrote:
> On Jul 10, 2007, at 10:02 AM, Carl Karsten wrote:
> 
>> Brian Ray wrote:
>>> I have some temporary street parking passes if you wish to increase
>>> your carbon footprint and drive.
>>>
>> I'll bring beer on ice if I don't have to carry it more than a few  
>> miles.
>>
>> What's the pass delivery protocol?
> 
> I guess the best way will be, park, come get a pass, and go back and  
> put the pass on your car. If you come early enough, you can call me  
> on my cell 773 835 9876 and I will run a pass out to you. There is  
> temporary parking spot in front of the steel door between the two  
> matching Barry Quad buildings on that side of the street. If you need  
> to unload something you can park there for a couple of minutes with  
> your flashers on.
> 

I'll try to be there a bit after 6:30.  I have a projector in my position.

Make sure there is a place to project, else I can bring my home made 'screen' 
that is a bunch of pipe and the back of a large map.  hopefully it won't come to 
that, cuz it is pretty ... not good.

Carl k

From damien at grassart.com  Wed Jul 11 17:18:03 2007
From: damien at grassart.com (Damien Grassart)
Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2007 10:18:03 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] Yet another ORM for Python
In-Reply-To: <694c06d60707101031p212e47cah6df944009ae29661@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20070710171601.GA15804@furrr.two14.net>
	<694c06d60707101031p212e47cah6df944009ae29661@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4694F4AB.5000105@grassart.com>

Brantley Harris wrote:
> I'm not really sure what it adds to the landscape...
>   
It seems like the big new features are sharding and seamless 
multi-database access (with automatic joining of results across databases).

I'm getting this from the comments on this post: 
http://programming.reddit.com/info/24oo3/comments where zzzeek = 
SQLAlchemy developer and niemeyer = Storm developer.

-Damien

From bradyc at google.com  Wed Jul 11 18:23:26 2007
From: bradyc at google.com (Brady Cox)
Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2007 11:23:26 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] ANN July 12, 2007 Chicago Python User Group Meeting
In-Reply-To: <4694E025.70502@personnelware.com>
References: <E224170D-42DE-4A4D-88EF-AEB6134CD614@sent.com>
	<027138D3-84FE-402C-8821-15A703A6337E@sent.com>
	<46939F7E.4010309@personnelware.com>
	<0766EA2D-7FCB-42D6-ACD3-626B5B824D00@sent.com>
	<4694E025.70502@personnelware.com>
Message-ID: <2dfd89af0707110923q1640040cod4a36910b89d3861@mail.gmail.com>

Doh!  I just realized that I can't go... I suck.  See you guys next month.

On 7/11/07, Carl Karsten <carl at personnelware.com> wrote:
>
> Brian Ray wrote:
> > On Jul 10, 2007, at 10:02 AM, Carl Karsten wrote:
> >
> >> Brian Ray wrote:
> >>> I have some temporary street parking passes if you wish to increase
> >>> your carbon footprint and drive.
> >>>
> >> I'll bring beer on ice if I don't have to carry it more than a few
> >> miles.
> >>
> >> What's the pass delivery protocol?
> >
> > I guess the best way will be, park, come get a pass, and go back and
> > put the pass on your car. If you come early enough, you can call me
> > on my cell 773 835 9876 and I will run a pass out to you. There is
> > temporary parking spot in front of the steel door between the two
> > matching Barry Quad buildings on that side of the street. If you need
> > to unload something you can park there for a couple of minutes with
> > your flashers on.
> >
>
> I'll try to be there a bit after 6:30.  I have a projector in my position.
>
> Make sure there is a place to project, else I can bring my home made
> 'screen'
> that is a bunch of pipe and the back of a large map.  hopefully it won't
> come to
> that, cuz it is pretty ... not good.
>
> Carl k
> _______________________________________________
> Chicago mailing list
> Chicago at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>



-- 
Brady Cox
Google Chicago DTA
"Give me six hours to chop down a tree and I will spend the first four
sharpening the axe." - Abraham Lincoln
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From emperorcezar at gmail.com  Wed Jul 11 19:52:30 2007
From: emperorcezar at gmail.com (Adam Jenkins)
Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2007 12:52:30 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] Announcing meetings
Message-ID: <58a5f2220707111052j8187fa3rf8d5aab969f1598c@mail.gmail.com>

I would suggest that ChiPy announce our meetings on the mailing list and on
comp.lang.python.announce group on google groups/usenet
I see some groups announcing on their.

-- 
---------------------------------------
Adam Jenkins
emperorcezar at gmail.com
312-399-5161
---------------------------------------
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From carl at personnelware.com  Wed Jul 11 20:08:19 2007
From: carl at personnelware.com (Carl Karsten)
Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2007 13:08:19 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] Announcing meetings
In-Reply-To: <58a5f2220707111052j8187fa3rf8d5aab969f1598c@mail.gmail.com>
References: <58a5f2220707111052j8187fa3rf8d5aab969f1598c@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <46951C93.8030700@personnelware.com>

Adam Jenkins wrote:
> I would suggest that ChiPy announce our meetings on the mailing list and on
> comp.lang.python.announce group on google groups/usenet
> I see some groups announcing on their.

I suggest that someone suggest that someone who posts there make the 
announcement.  but we better vote on it for the next 3 days.  the results will 
be announced in October.

Carl K



From pfein at pobox.com  Wed Jul 11 20:24:21 2007
From: pfein at pobox.com (Pete)
Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2007 13:24:21 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] Announcing meetings
In-Reply-To: <46951C93.8030700@personnelware.com>
References: <58a5f2220707111052j8187fa3rf8d5aab969f1598c@mail.gmail.com>
	<46951C93.8030700@personnelware.com>
Message-ID: <200707111324.22192.pfein@pobox.com>

On Wednesday July 11 2007 1:08 pm, Carl Karsten wrote:
> Adam Jenkins wrote:
> > I would suggest that ChiPy announce our meetings on the mailing list and
> > on comp.lang.python.announce group on google groups/usenet
> > I see some groups announcing on their.
>
> I suggest that someone suggest that someone who posts there make the
> announcement.  but we better vote on it for the next 3 days.  the results
> will be announced in October.

In short, Adam:

Knock Yourself Out

Other such motivated folks are of course free to spread the word to other such 
reasonably interested parties (ie, WGN news & the Mayor's Office of Special 
Events probably don't give a chipmunk's ass).

-- 
Peter Fein   ||   773-575-0694   ||   pfein at pobox.com
http://www.pobox.com/~pfein/   ||   PGP: 0xCCF6AE6B
irc: pfein at freenode.net   ||   jabber: peter.fein at gmail.com

From emperorcezar at gmail.com  Wed Jul 11 20:29:32 2007
From: emperorcezar at gmail.com (Adam Jenkins)
Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2007 13:29:32 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] Announcing meetings
In-Reply-To: <200707111324.22192.pfein@pobox.com>
References: <58a5f2220707111052j8187fa3rf8d5aab969f1598c@mail.gmail.com>
	<46951C93.8030700@personnelware.com>
	<200707111324.22192.pfein@pobox.com>
Message-ID: <58a5f2220707111129qeba0bb0w254b463fdaf9c1d1@mail.gmail.com>

Cool. I'll go ahead and do so.

On 7/11/07, Pete <pfein at pobox.com> wrote:
>
> On Wednesday July 11 2007 1:08 pm, Carl Karsten wrote:
> > Adam Jenkins wrote:
> > > I would suggest that ChiPy announce our meetings on the mailing list
> and
> > > on comp.lang.python.announce group on google groups/usenet
> > > I see some groups announcing on their.
> >
> > I suggest that someone suggest that someone who posts there make the
> > announcement.  but we better vote on it for the next 3 days.  the
> results
> > will be announced in October.
>
> In short, Adam:
>
> Knock Yourself Out
>
> Other such motivated folks are of course free to spread the word to other
> such
> reasonably interested parties (ie, WGN news & the Mayor's Office of
> Special
> Events probably don't give a chipmunk's ass).
>
> --
> Peter Fein   ||   773-575-0694   ||   pfein at pobox.com
> http://www.pobox.com/~pfein/   ||   PGP: 0xCCF6AE6B
> irc: pfein at freenode.net   ||   jabber: peter.fein at gmail.com
> _______________________________________________
> Chicago mailing list
> Chicago at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>



-- 
---------------------------------------
Adam Jenkins
emperorcezar at gmail.com
312-399-5161
---------------------------------------
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From deadwisdom at gmail.com  Wed Jul 11 20:31:00 2007
From: deadwisdom at gmail.com (Brantley Harris)
Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2007 13:31:00 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] Announcing meetings
In-Reply-To: <46951C93.8030700@personnelware.com>
References: <58a5f2220707111052j8187fa3rf8d5aab969f1598c@mail.gmail.com>
	<46951C93.8030700@personnelware.com>
Message-ID: <694c06d60707111131u1485ced8p2b14bf580ec87721@mail.gmail.com>

I will ratify that suggestion, but due to pressure from my
constituents, I will probably have to vote against it unless it
includes a rider for the perverted arts.

On 7/11/07, Carl Karsten <carl at personnelware.com> wrote:
> Adam Jenkins wrote:
> > I would suggest that ChiPy announce our meetings on the mailing list and on
> > comp.lang.python.announce group on google groups/usenet
> > I see some groups announcing on their.
>
> I suggest that someone suggest that someone who posts there make the
> announcement.  but we better vote on it for the next 3 days.  the results will
> be announced in October.
>
> Carl K
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Chicago mailing list
> Chicago at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>

From chris.mcavoy at gmail.com  Wed Jul 11 20:42:41 2007
From: chris.mcavoy at gmail.com (Chris McAvoy)
Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2007 13:42:41 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] Pycon '08 Staff Sign Ups
Message-ID: <3096c19d0707111142he1d8726ua9bdd23ce26b080e@mail.gmail.com>

Hi All,

David Goodger, the Pycon chair for '08, put up a list of available
staff positions for Pycon.  There' some good stuff on there.  Put your
name in the hat for anything that interests you.

Chris

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: David Goodger <goodger at python.org>
Date: Jul 11, 2007 10:46 AM
Subject: Re: [PyCON-Organizers] PyCon Organizers' Meeting
To: pycon-organizers at python.org
Cc: pycon-tech at python.org


I have added a wiki page for staff sign-ups:
http://wiki.python.org/moin/PyCon2008/Staff

Please feel free to sign up before the meeting.

--
David Goodger <http://python.net/~goodger>
_______________________________________________
Pycon-organizers mailing list
Pycon-organizers at python.org
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pycon-organizers

From bray at sent.com  Wed Jul 11 22:25:41 2007
From: bray at sent.com (Brian Ray)
Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2007 15:25:41 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] Announcing meetings
In-Reply-To: <58a5f2220707111052j8187fa3rf8d5aab969f1598c@mail.gmail.com>
References: <58a5f2220707111052j8187fa3rf8d5aab969f1598c@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <B13C18A0-4C33-4378-8947-F14397C292F3@sent.com>


On Jul 11, 2007, at 12:52 PM, Adam Jenkins wrote:

> I would suggest that ChiPy announce our meetings on the mailing  
> list and on comp.lang.python.announce group on google groups/usenet
> I see some groups announcing on their.


Announce AWAY! Just do me a favor and stick to the agreed format  
<http://chipy.org/publicity>. In the case of July, you can cut and  
paste the announcement I already sent.

Concerning  comp.lang.python.announce I once would always send  
meeting notices there. However, its moderated and they typically did  
not get to approving the announcements in time OR I did not send them  
soon enough. Either way, they oft not show up.

Regards,

Brian Ray
bray at sent.com
http://kazavoo.com/blog



From tcp at mac.com  Wed Jul 11 22:58:03 2007
From: tcp at mac.com (Ted Pollari)
Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2007 15:58:03 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] Pycon '08 Staff Sign Ups
In-Reply-To: <3096c19d0707111142he1d8726ua9bdd23ce26b080e@mail.gmail.com>
References: <3096c19d0707111142he1d8726ua9bdd23ce26b080e@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <6A6DEF64-486E-49B5-BF0B-ADB6D285FB65@mac.com>


On Jul 11, 2007, at 1:42 PM, Chris McAvoy wrote:

> Hi All,
>
> David Goodger, the Pycon chair for '08, put up a list of available
> staff positions for Pycon.  There' some good stuff on there.  Put your
> name in the hat for anything that interests you.
>
> Chris


And, while you're at it, feel free to join/monitor the PyCon  
organizers list:


http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pycon-organizers

(no commitment required, cancel any time, operators are standing by...)



-ted


From mtobis at gmail.com  Thu Jul 12 18:47:22 2007
From: mtobis at gmail.com (Michael Tobis)
Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2007 11:47:22 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] more Python golf
Message-ID: <c3aa55550707120947s53d22fd4qdbdafbf7d204dcbf@mail.gmail.com>

http://codegolf.com/

mt

From EGeise at prestigestaffing.com  Thu Jul 12 23:31:55 2007
From: EGeise at prestigestaffing.com (Geise, Erich)
Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2007 17:31:55 -0400
Subject: [Chicago] Sr. Software Engineer - PYTHON - Opening
Message-ID: <08F786620C86284481744A3CBA389250017CA7EA@SERVER.Prestige.local>

Dear ChiPy Members,

 

I have recently moved to Chicago to open our newest technology staffing
office from Atlanta, GA.  My network in Atlanta taught me to work with
professional groups to target the true programming experts, and I found
your group today.  

 

I am currently recruiting for Sr. Software Engineers who are strong with
Python in Chicago.  

 

We seek professionals that demonstrate an entrepreneurial spirit, take a
holistic view of the firm and its goals, and are passionate about
industry change.  Potential candidates can expect a fast-paced, fun, and
challenging work environment, passionate and talented people to work
with, a competitive salary commensurate with experience, and significant
bonus and equity potential.  Ideal candidates will demonstrate the
following: 

 

*	Proven ability to work in a fast-paced and rapidly changing
environment.

*	Entrepreneurial passion and drive.
*	Strong project management experience.
*	Thorough understanding of business processes and ability to put
this knowledge into practice. 
*	Ability to communicate in a clear manner, both verbally and in
writing. 
*	Experience in developing and refining internal business
strategies. 
*	Ability to build strong working relationships both internally
and externally. 

Role:

This position will be responsible for the architecture, design,
development and unit testing of new features and feature extensions
required of the client application. Additionally there are opportunities
to lead functional requirements discussions regarding the evolution of
the client application.

Technology skills include:

*	Well-rounded technical skill set, and experience developing
complex, high volume business systems. 
*	Architect and systems development experience. 
*	Web application programming in Python.
*	Application development using Linux, Apache, Webware, SQLObject,
Reportlab, and J2EE technologies.
*	Database programming with PostgreSQL, DB2, and Oracle.
*	Web services and enterprise application integration experience.
*	Business process focused systems experience.
*	Performance analysis and improvement.  

Qualifications:

*	BA/BS in CS or equivalent experience.
*	A minimum of five years of software development experience,
using formal development methods.
*	Experience developing robust, secure, scalable, high volume,
commercial-grade web applications.
*	Financial and business workflow development experience.
*	Expertise with all phases of the software development lifecycle,
including requirements analysis, design, coding, testing,
implementation, and support.
*	Excellent verbal and written communication skills.
*	Skills working in a collaborative team environment.

If you are interested, please send me an email or give me a call.  

 

Erich Geise

Group Manager

Prestige Staffing

105 W. Adams Street, Suite 1410 - Chicago, IL 60603

Office 312-443-6152 - Fax 312-345-1941 - Cell 404-387-3404

egeise at prestigestaffing.com- www.prestigestafffing.com

 

 

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From mtobis at gmail.com  Tue Jul 17 17:45:49 2007
From: mtobis at gmail.com (Michael Tobis)
Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2007 10:45:49 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] repairing edu-sig
Message-ID: <c3aa55550707170845i628679a3l554b49b9a219fb10@mail.gmail.com>

Hey y'all

There is discussion on the edu-sig list about narrowing that list's
focus. Those readers who have withdrawn from edu-sig in frustration
are encouraged to participate. The topic is currently labelled "Python
in Secondary Schools" though that label should probably change.

I've been having an off list conversation with BDFL himself, and he
has now pitched in to the list. Since this has Guido's attention I
think it would be a good time to push for a more functional edu-sig.

Even a "+1" would help, but a summary of how you feel about whether
the edu-sig list has served your needs would be better.

regards from Cintral Tixes
mt

From Marty.Murphy at na.manpower.com  Tue Jul 17 19:00:46 2007
From: Marty.Murphy at na.manpower.com (Marty.Murphy at na.manpower.com)
Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2007 12:00:46 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] Python Developers
Message-ID: <OF376EB14A.57ACCD47-ON8625731B.005BAF8C-8625731B.005D6631@na.manpower.com>

Dear Chicago Python Users Group,

I am an IT recruiter for Manpower Professional.  I place talented IT 
professionals with companies in the Chicagoland area for Full-Time 
Permanent jobs.  A respectable client of mine (located in the North 
Suburbs) has an ongoing need for stellar Python developers.  I figure this 
user group is a great place to find qualified Python Developers, but I 
want to do so respectfully and follow protocol within your usergroup. 
Please let me know if there are certain guidelines that I should follow in 
order to post a Python job through your user group.  Otherwise, please 
contact me if you, or someone you know is interested in a great 
opportunity as a Python developer.  Thank you!

Best Regards,

Marty Murphy
Professional Placement Consultant

Manpower Professional
20 N. Wacker Dr Suite 3030
Chicago, Illinois 60606  USA
T: +1 312.263.3907
F: +1 312.263.5628 
C: +1 312.848.9843
 www.manpowerprofessional.com

________________________________________________________________________
This e-mail and its attachments may contain Manpower Inc. proprietary information, which is PRIVILEGED, CONFIDENTIAL, or subject to COPYRIGHT belonging to Manpower Inc.  This e-mail is intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to which it is addressed.  If you are not the intended recipient of this e-mail, or the employee or agent responsible for delivering this e-mail to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, copying, or action taken in relation to the contents of and attachments to this e-mail is STRICTLY PROHIBITED and may be UNLAWFUL.  If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender immediately and permanently delete the original and any copy of this e-mail and any printout.  Thank you.

______________________________________________________________________
This email has been scanned by the MessageLabs Email Security System.
For more information please visit http://www.messagelabs.com/email 
______________________________________________________________________
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From Marty.Murphy at na.manpower.com  Tue Jul 17 20:59:46 2007
From: Marty.Murphy at na.manpower.com (Marty.Murphy at na.manpower.com)
Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2007 13:59:46 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] Sr. Python Engineer - 125k
Message-ID: <OFA0532F53.0E98C0DB-ON8625731B.0067ADD5-8625731B.00684B0B@na.manpower.com>

Please contact me if you, or someone you know may be qualified and 
interested in the following opportunity.  Thank you!

Marty Murphy
Professional Placement Consultant

Manpower Professional
20 N. Wacker Dr Suite 3030
Chicago, Illinois 60606  USA
T: +1 312.263.3907
F: +1 312.263.5628 
C: +1 312.848.9843
 www.manpowerprofessional.com

Sr. Software Engineer - Python - Chicago North Shore (Full Time Permanent 
- up to 130k)
Role:
This position will be responsible for the architecture, design, 
development and unit testing of new features and feature extensions 
required of the application. Additionally there are opportunities to lead 
functional requirements discussions regarding the evolution of the 
application.
Technology skills include:
Well-rounded technical skill set, and experience developing complex, high 
volume business systems. 
Architect and systems development experience. 
Web application programming in Python.
Application development using Linux, Apache, Webware, SQLObject, 
Reportlab, and J2EE technologies.
Database programming with PostgreSQL, DB2, and Oracle.
Web services and enterprise application integration experience.
Business process focused systems experience.
Performance analysis and improvement. 
Qualifications:
BA/BS in CS or equivalent experience.
A minimum of five years of software development experience, using formal 
development methods.
Experience developing robust, secure, scalable, high volume, 
commercial-grade web applications.
Financial and business workflow development experience.
Expertise with all phases of the software development lifecycle, including 
requirements analysis, design, coding, testing, implementation, and 
support.
Excellent verbal and written communication skills.
Skills working in a collaborative team environment.
 You can expect a fast-paced, fun, and challenging work environment, great 
people to work with, a competitive salary commensurate with experience, 
and significant bonus potential.

________________________________________________________________________
This e-mail and its attachments may contain Manpower Inc. proprietary information, which is PRIVILEGED, CONFIDENTIAL, or subject to COPYRIGHT belonging to Manpower Inc.  This e-mail is intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to which it is addressed.  If you are not the intended recipient of this e-mail, or the employee or agent responsible for delivering this e-mail to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, copying, or action taken in relation to the contents of and attachments to this e-mail is STRICTLY PROHIBITED and may be UNLAWFUL.  If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender immediately and permanently delete the original and any copy of this e-mail and any printout.  Thank you.

______________________________________________________________________
This email has been scanned by the MessageLabs Email Security System.
For more information please visit http://www.messagelabs.com/email 
______________________________________________________________________
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From szybalski at gmail.com  Wed Jul 18 19:07:10 2007
From: szybalski at gmail.com (Lukasz Szybalski)
Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2007 12:07:10 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] How to extract egg file?
Message-ID: <804e5c70707181007u777768b8u698c476b984010f5@mail.gmail.com>

Hello,
I have a projectname.egg and I need to look at the source code for it.
I need to to be extracted the content of egg file to  /some/path

How do i do it?

Thanks,
Lucas

From varmaa at gmail.com  Wed Jul 18 19:49:34 2007
From: varmaa at gmail.com (Atul Varma)
Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2007 12:49:34 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] How to extract egg file?
In-Reply-To: <804e5c70707181007u777768b8u698c476b984010f5@mail.gmail.com>
References: <804e5c70707181007u777768b8u698c476b984010f5@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <361b27370707181049r2aff4c1aj2283c4747ef04ff0@mail.gmail.com>

An .egg file is actually just a .zip file with a different extension,
so on a Unix system you should be able to just run "unzip
sampleEgg.egg".  If all else fails, you can just rename the file to
"sampleEgg.zip" and investigate it like a normal zip file.

- Atul

On 7/18/07, Lukasz Szybalski <szybalski at gmail.com> wrote:
> Hello,
> I have a projectname.egg and I need to look at the source code for it.
> I need to to be extracted the content of egg file to  /some/path
>
> How do i do it?
>
> Thanks,
> Lucas
> _______________________________________________
> Chicago mailing list
> Chicago at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>

From szybalski at gmail.com  Wed Jul 18 20:06:41 2007
From: szybalski at gmail.com (Lukasz Szybalski)
Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2007 13:06:41 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] How to extract egg file?
In-Reply-To: <361b27370707181049r2aff4c1aj2283c4747ef04ff0@mail.gmail.com>
References: <804e5c70707181007u777768b8u698c476b984010f5@mail.gmail.com>
	<361b27370707181049r2aff4c1aj2283c4747ef04ff0@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <804e5c70707181106t44299d88k273b37e1d145a0a4@mail.gmail.com>

unzip works...
thanks


On 7/18/07, Atul Varma <varmaa at gmail.com> wrote:
> An .egg file is actually just a .zip file with a different extension,
> so on a Unix system you should be able to just run "unzip
> sampleEgg.egg".  If all else fails, you can just rename the file to
> "sampleEgg.zip" and investigate it like a normal zip file.
>
> - Atul
>
> On 7/18/07, Lukasz Szybalski <szybalski at gmail.com> wrote:
> > Hello,
> > I have a projectname.egg and I need to look at the source code for it.
> > I need to to be extracted the content of egg file to  /some/path
> >
> > How do i do it?
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Lucas
> > _______________________________________________
> > Chicago mailing list
> > Chicago at python.org
> > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
> >
> _______________________________________________
> Chicago mailing list
> Chicago at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>


-- 
-- 
Linux is not magic. It just works.
http://www.lucasmanual.com
Fax Server from start to finish:
http://www.lucasmanual.com/pdf/FaxServer.pdf

From goodger at python.org  Wed Jul 18 21:04:23 2007
From: goodger at python.org (David Goodger)
Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2007 15:04:23 -0400
Subject: [Chicago] Chicago visit
In-Reply-To: <4335d2c40706071346h3f079d0akd4c8bc5cd1224912@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4335d2c40705231309g6440a4ecjc6a6b41c69e5113f@mail.gmail.com>
	<4335d2c40706071346h3f079d0akd4c8bc5cd1224912@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4335d2c40707181204q65b08311le26f2d2b080c80dd@mail.gmail.com>

My schedule for this weekend is below.  If anyone wants to meet up on
Saturday, please speak up.  I'll have my cell phone: 1-514-497-4172

Friday:

* arrive at the hotel by 11am

* lunch with hotel staff & CTE & Ted

* afternoon tour of the hotel, maybe meetings -- a look-see

* dinner Friday is booked

Saturday:

* breakfast with Larry Skaja & Ted Pollari & Chris McAvoy & anybody
who wants to join us.  Location: Lou Mitchell's?  Time?  Ted, please
advise.

* 9:45 - 1pm: City Segway Tours, 400 E. Randolph (reservation
required; don't know if there's still space)

* 1pm lunch anyone?  I'll be at Grant Park.

* afternoon: planning to hit American Science & Surplus

* evening: no plans yet

Sunday: early flight to Portland

-- 
David Goodger <http://python.net/~goodger>

From carl at personnelware.com  Wed Jul 18 21:26:44 2007
From: carl at personnelware.com (Carl Karsten)
Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2007 14:26:44 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] Chicago visit
In-Reply-To: <4335d2c40707181204q65b08311le26f2d2b080c80dd@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4335d2c40705231309g6440a4ecjc6a6b41c69e5113f@mail.gmail.com>	<4335d2c40706071346h3f079d0akd4c8bc5cd1224912@mail.gmail.com>
	<4335d2c40707181204q65b08311le26f2d2b080c80dd@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <469E6974.7000603@personnelware.com>

David Goodger wrote:
> My schedule for this weekend is below.  If anyone wants to meet up on
> Saturday, please speak up.  I'll have my cell phone: 1-514-497-4172
> 
> Friday:
> 
> * arrive at the hotel by 11am
> 
> * lunch with hotel staff & CTE & Ted
> 
> * afternoon tour of the hotel, maybe meetings -- a look-see
> 
> * dinner Friday is booked
> 
> Saturday:
> 
> * breakfast with Larry Skaja & Ted Pollari & Chris McAvoy & anybody
> who wants to join us.  Location: Lou Mitchell's?  Time?  Ted, please
> advise.
> 
> * 9:45 - 1pm: City Segway Tours, 400 E. Randolph (reservation
> required; don't know if there's still space)
> 
> * 1pm lunch anyone?  I'll be at Grant Park.
> 
> * afternoon: planning to hit American Science & Surplus
> 

As cool as American Science & Surplus is, um.  hmm... I would drop it in favor 
of .. um.  oh hell.   It is 'somewhat' close to the hotel, so I'll see you there :)

Carl K

From tcp at mac.com  Thu Jul 19 19:59:03 2007
From: tcp at mac.com (Ted Pollari)
Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2007 12:59:03 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] Chicago visit
In-Reply-To: <4335d2c40707181204q65b08311le26f2d2b080c80dd@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4335d2c40705231309g6440a4ecjc6a6b41c69e5113f@mail.gmail.com>
	<4335d2c40706071346h3f079d0akd4c8bc5cd1224912@mail.gmail.com>
	<4335d2c40707181204q65b08311le26f2d2b080c80dd@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <E98A8AE8-23A7-42A8-B158-8DC8A07618F4@mac.com>


On Jul 18, 2007, at 2:04 PM, David Goodger wrote:

> Saturday:
>
> * breakfast with Larry Skaja & Ted Pollari & Chris McAvoy & anybody
> who wants to join us.  Location: Lou Mitchell's?  Time?  Ted, please
> advise.
>
> * 9:45 - 1pm: City Segway Tours, 400 E. Randolph (reservation
> required; don't know if there's still space)
>
> * 1pm lunch anyone?  I'll be at Grant Park.


So, the latest scoop is that breakfast is off and I'll be meeting up  
with David (and Chris?) for lunch.   Anyone else want to join us?

Anyone who spends more time down there got a good suggestion for a  
lunch spot on a Saturday near Grant Park?

-t


From varmaa at gmail.com  Thu Jul 19 20:19:11 2007
From: varmaa at gmail.com (Atul Varma)
Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2007 13:19:11 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] Chicago visit
In-Reply-To: <E98A8AE8-23A7-42A8-B158-8DC8A07618F4@mac.com>
References: <4335d2c40705231309g6440a4ecjc6a6b41c69e5113f@mail.gmail.com>
	<4335d2c40706071346h3f079d0akd4c8bc5cd1224912@mail.gmail.com>
	<4335d2c40707181204q65b08311le26f2d2b080c80dd@mail.gmail.com>
	<E98A8AE8-23A7-42A8-B158-8DC8A07618F4@mac.com>
Message-ID: <361b27370707191119y511ca035h3cd4acaf90f996f4@mail.gmail.com>

I'd like to meet you guys for lunch.

And sorry I didn't make it to the Pycon organizer's meeting on
tuesday--had an emergency to take care of.  I'll definitely be at the
next one, though.

The only nice restaurant I know of in that area is My Thai:

  http://centerstagechicago.com/restaurants/mythai.html

Everything I've had there is good, with the exception of their Thai
Iced Tea, which isn't sweet at all (and as such is different from any
other I've had).

Apparently "The Gage" is also supposed to be good eats, but I've never
been there:

  http://www.thegagechicago.com/

- Atul

On 7/19/07, Ted Pollari <tcp at mac.com> wrote:
>
> On Jul 18, 2007, at 2:04 PM, David Goodger wrote:
>
> > Saturday:
> >
> > * breakfast with Larry Skaja & Ted Pollari & Chris McAvoy & anybody
> > who wants to join us.  Location: Lou Mitchell's?  Time?  Ted, please
> > advise.
> >
> > * 9:45 - 1pm: City Segway Tours, 400 E. Randolph (reservation
> > required; don't know if there's still space)
> >
> > * 1pm lunch anyone?  I'll be at Grant Park.
>
>
> So, the latest scoop is that breakfast is off and I'll be meeting up
> with David (and Chris?) for lunch.   Anyone else want to join us?
>
> Anyone who spends more time down there got a good suggestion for a
> lunch spot on a Saturday near Grant Park?
>
> -t
>
> _______________________________________________
> Chicago mailing list
> Chicago at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>

From tcp at mac.com  Thu Jul 19 20:41:14 2007
From: tcp at mac.com (Ted Pollari)
Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2007 13:41:14 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] Chicago visit
In-Reply-To: <361b27370707191119y511ca035h3cd4acaf90f996f4@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4335d2c40705231309g6440a4ecjc6a6b41c69e5113f@mail.gmail.com>
	<4335d2c40706071346h3f079d0akd4c8bc5cd1224912@mail.gmail.com>
	<4335d2c40707181204q65b08311le26f2d2b080c80dd@mail.gmail.com>
	<E98A8AE8-23A7-42A8-B158-8DC8A07618F4@mac.com>
	<361b27370707191119y511ca035h3cd4acaf90f996f4@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <226F5C7E-A0D6-432B-8EEB-4C023440D066@mac.com>


On Jul 19, 2007, at 1:19 PM, Atul Varma wrote:

> I'd like to meet you guys for lunch.
>
> And sorry I didn't make it to the Pycon organizer's meeting on
> tuesday--had an emergency to take care of.  I'll definitely be at the
> next one, though.
>
> The only nice restaurant I know of in that area is My Thai:


If you're looking for nice, what about the Atwood Cafe?

http://www.atwoodcafe.com/

If we want to do that, reservations would probably be a good idea...

-t


From esinclai at pobox.com  Thu Jul 19 21:37:00 2007
From: esinclai at pobox.com (Eric Sinclair)
Date: 19 Jul 2007 14:37:00 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] Chicago visit
Message-ID: <3267700666.715489@mail.kittyjoyce.com>

If you want nice, the Park Grille is very tasty, if a bit pricey.

For cheap, there's bunches of Cosi around which have decent sandwich/salad options.

--  
esinclai at pobox.com               aim/skype: esinclai     jabber: esinclai at gmail.com
http://www.kittyjoyce.com/eric/log/
-----Original Message-----
From: Ted Pollari <tcp at mac.com>
Date: Thursday, Jul 19, 2007 1:41 pm
Subject: Re: [Chicago] Chicago visit
To: The Chicago Python Users Group <chicago at python.org>Reply-to: The Chicago Python Users Group <chicago at python.org>


>On Jul 19, 2007, at 1:19 PM, Atul Varma wrote:
>
>> I'd like to meet you guys for lunch.
>
>> And sorry I didn't make it to the Pycon organizer's meeting on
> tuesday--had an emergency to take care of.  I'll definitely be at the
> next one, though.
>
>> The only nice restaurant I know of in that area is My Thai:
>
>
>If you're looking for nice, what about the Atwood Cafe?
>
>http://www.atwoodcafe.com/
>
>If we want to do that, reservations would probably be a good idea...
>
>-t
>
>_______________________________________________
>Chicago mailing list
>Chicago at python.org
>http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>


From skip at pobox.com  Thu Jul 19 21:58:31 2007
From: skip at pobox.com (skip at pobox.com)
Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2007 14:58:31 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] Chicago visit
In-Reply-To: <E98A8AE8-23A7-42A8-B158-8DC8A07618F4@mac.com>
References: <4335d2c40705231309g6440a4ecjc6a6b41c69e5113f@mail.gmail.com>
	<4335d2c40706071346h3f079d0akd4c8bc5cd1224912@mail.gmail.com>
	<4335d2c40707181204q65b08311le26f2d2b080c80dd@mail.gmail.com>
	<E98A8AE8-23A7-42A8-B158-8DC8A07618F4@mac.com>
Message-ID: <18079.49767.20163.718294@montanaro.dyndns.org>


    Ted> Anyone who spends more time down there got a good suggestion for a
    Ted> lunch spot on a Saturday near Grant Park?

Heaven on Seven (111 N. Wabash - Seventh floor)?

    http://www.heavenonseven.com/

Not all that great for your arteries, but...

A bit further away, Siam Rice (117 N. Wells) is good.  Whoops - closed on
the weekend.

Ummm...  Petterino's (150 N. Dearborn):

    http://www.leye.com/restaurants/rest_home.jsp?id=33

Sorry, I can't make it...

Skip

From damien at grassart.com  Thu Jul 19 22:03:15 2007
From: damien at grassart.com (Damien Grassart)
Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2007 15:03:15 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] Chicago visit
In-Reply-To: <E98A8AE8-23A7-42A8-B158-8DC8A07618F4@mac.com>
References: <4335d2c40705231309g6440a4ecjc6a6b41c69e5113f@mail.gmail.com>	<4335d2c40706071346h3f079d0akd4c8bc5cd1224912@mail.gmail.com>	<4335d2c40707181204q65b08311le26f2d2b080c80dd@mail.gmail.com>
	<E98A8AE8-23A7-42A8-B158-8DC8A07618F4@mac.com>
Message-ID: <469FC383.9030603@grassart.com>

Ted Pollari wrote:
> Anyone who spends more time down there got a good suggestion for a  
> lunch spot on a Saturday near Grant Park?
>   
Pizano's on Madison (just off Michigan Ave) has some tasty pizza.

-Damien


From carl at personnelware.com  Thu Jul 19 22:23:50 2007
From: carl at personnelware.com (Carl Karsten)
Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2007 15:23:50 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] Chicago visit
In-Reply-To: <469FC383.9030603@grassart.com>
References: <4335d2c40705231309g6440a4ecjc6a6b41c69e5113f@mail.gmail.com>	<4335d2c40706071346h3f079d0akd4c8bc5cd1224912@mail.gmail.com>	<4335d2c40707181204q65b08311le26f2d2b080c80dd@mail.gmail.com>	<E98A8AE8-23A7-42A8-B158-8DC8A07618F4@mac.com>
	<469FC383.9030603@grassart.com>
Message-ID: <469FC856.5050907@personnelware.com>

Damien Grassart wrote:
> Ted Pollari wrote:
>> Anyone who spends more time down there got a good suggestion for a  
>> lunch spot on a Saturday near Grant Park?
>>   
> Pizano's on Madison (just off Michigan Ave) has some tasty pizza.

if you are fom out of down, isn't Pizza Uno or Geno's East a requirement?

Carl K

From tcp at mac.com  Thu Jul 19 22:31:40 2007
From: tcp at mac.com (Ted Pollari)
Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2007 15:31:40 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] Chicago visit
In-Reply-To: <469FC856.5050907@personnelware.com>
References: <4335d2c40705231309g6440a4ecjc6a6b41c69e5113f@mail.gmail.com>
	<4335d2c40706071346h3f079d0akd4c8bc5cd1224912@mail.gmail.com>
	<4335d2c40707181204q65b08311le26f2d2b080c80dd@mail.gmail.com>
	<E98A8AE8-23A7-42A8-B158-8DC8A07618F4@mac.com>
	<469FC383.9030603@grassart.com>
	<469FC856.5050907@personnelware.com>
Message-ID: <16E98871-3C5B-4B5C-94A0-7F1E08A62670@mac.com>


On Jul 19, 2007, at 3:23 PM, Carl Karsten wrote:

> if you are fom out of down, isn't Pizza Uno or Geno's East a  
> requirement?
>

If you're a tourist, yes =)


(I'm not fond of Uno -- plus you can find them all over the country  
in chain form and Geno's East is hit or miss in my opinion...but  
that's probably just me)

-t

From cwebber at imagescape.com  Thu Jul 19 22:16:10 2007
From: cwebber at imagescape.com (Christopher Allan Webber)
Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2007 15:16:10 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] Imaginary Landscape looks to hire python programmers
Message-ID: <6ysl7kno8l.fsf@moretomore.rd.imagescape.com>

Hello,

The company I work at, Imaginary Landscape, is looking for another
experienced Python programmer (or so).  Both full time and contractor
positions are available.  Imaginary Landscape is a Chicago-based
web development company in Andersonville with deep Python-based roots.

We also encourage open source projects and support your involvement in
the open source community.

A good candidate must have:
 - 2+ years experience programming with python
 - 2+ years experience with SQL
 - Experience on the command line in a Linux (or other Unix-like) OS
 - Have familiarity with one or more web frameworks, such as
   Paste/Pylons, Turbogears, Django, or Ruby on Rails

Experience with Zope Page Templates and Zope are also desirable (for
legacy purposes).


A bit of company background:
  Founded in 1995, Imaginary Landscape is an award-winning web
  developer with a diverse portfolio of clients.  We have built an
  indcredible team of knowledgable, experienced and approachable
  professionals who develop long-term relationships with clients.  We
  combine salary with company profit-sharing and 100% company-paid
  health insurance to attract and retain the very brightest who are
  looking to make a difference.

You can respond with your cover letter and resume (as PDF, MS Word,
OpenDocument, HTML or just plain text) to me directly or to
employment at imagescape.com

From bradyc at google.com  Thu Jul 19 22:57:31 2007
From: bradyc at google.com (Brady Cox)
Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2007 15:57:31 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] Imaginary Landscape looks to hire python programmers
In-Reply-To: <6ysl7kno8l.fsf@moretomore.rd.imagescape.com>
References: <6ysl7kno8l.fsf@moretomore.rd.imagescape.com>
Message-ID: <2dfd89af0707191357g290f8507q60eb1a833d2e47ff@mail.gmail.com>

Also, I'd like to add that Chris is a gentleman and a scholar.

See you at the next ChiPy meeting... unless I'm out of state.

On 7/19/07, Christopher Allan Webber <cwebber at imagescape.com> wrote:
>
> Hello,
>
> The company I work at, Imaginary Landscape, is looking for another
> experienced Python programmer (or so).  Both full time and contractor
> positions are available.  Imaginary Landscape is a Chicago-based
> web development company in Andersonville with deep Python-based roots.
>
> We also encourage open source projects and support your involvement in
> the open source community.
>
> A good candidate must have:
> - 2+ years experience programming with python
> - 2+ years experience with SQL
> - Experience on the command line in a Linux (or other Unix-like) OS
> - Have familiarity with one or more web frameworks, such as
>    Paste/Pylons, Turbogears, Django, or Ruby on Rails
>
> Experience with Zope Page Templates and Zope are also desirable (for
> legacy purposes).
>
>
> A bit of company background:
>   Founded in 1995, Imaginary Landscape is an award-winning web
>   developer with a diverse portfolio of clients.  We have built an
>   indcredible team of knowledgable, experienced and approachable
>   professionals who develop long-term relationships with clients.  We
>   combine salary with company profit-sharing and 100% company-paid
>   health insurance to attract and retain the very brightest who are
>   looking to make a difference.
>
> You can respond with your cover letter and resume (as PDF, MS Word,
> OpenDocument, HTML or just plain text) to me directly or to
> employment at imagescape.com
> _______________________________________________
> Chicago mailing list
> Chicago at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>



-- 
Brady Cox
Google Chicago DTA
"Give me six hours to chop down a tree and I will spend the first four
sharpening the axe." - Abraham Lincoln
-------------- next part --------------
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From chris.mcavoy at gmail.com  Thu Jul 19 23:45:35 2007
From: chris.mcavoy at gmail.com (Chris McAvoy)
Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2007 16:45:35 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] Chicago visit
In-Reply-To: <16E98871-3C5B-4B5C-94A0-7F1E08A62670@mac.com>
References: <4335d2c40705231309g6440a4ecjc6a6b41c69e5113f@mail.gmail.com>
	<4335d2c40706071346h3f079d0akd4c8bc5cd1224912@mail.gmail.com>
	<4335d2c40707181204q65b08311le26f2d2b080c80dd@mail.gmail.com>
	<E98A8AE8-23A7-42A8-B158-8DC8A07618F4@mac.com>
	<469FC383.9030603@grassart.com> <469FC856.5050907@personnelware.com>
	<16E98871-3C5B-4B5C-94A0-7F1E08A62670@mac.com>
Message-ID: <3096c19d0707191445k3d040f7x757c43eb96cf7c6c@mail.gmail.com>

On 7/19/07, Ted Pollari <tcp at mac.com> wrote:
>
> On Jul 19, 2007, at 3:23 PM, Carl Karsten wrote:
>
> > if you are fom out of down, isn't Pizza Uno or Geno's East a
> > requirement?
> >
>
> If you're a tourist, yes =)
>
>
> (I'm not fond of Uno -- plus you can find them all over the country
> in chain form and Geno's East is hit or miss in my opinion...but
> that's probably just me)

Lou Malnati's!  Lou Malnati's!

This is getting rough.  This list should seriously be called "Lots of
opinions about tourist spots in Chicago, punctuated with occasional
talk about Python."

Egads.

I say we let the tourist (Goodger) decide.

Chris

From damien at grassart.com  Fri Jul 20 01:24:29 2007
From: damien at grassart.com (Damien Grassart)
Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2007 18:24:29 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] Chicago visit
In-Reply-To: <3096c19d0707191445k3d040f7x757c43eb96cf7c6c@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4335d2c40705231309g6440a4ecjc6a6b41c69e5113f@mail.gmail.com>	<4335d2c40706071346h3f079d0akd4c8bc5cd1224912@mail.gmail.com>	<4335d2c40707181204q65b08311le26f2d2b080c80dd@mail.gmail.com>	<E98A8AE8-23A7-42A8-B158-8DC8A07618F4@mac.com>	<469FC383.9030603@grassart.com>
	<469FC856.5050907@personnelware.com>	<16E98871-3C5B-4B5C-94A0-7F1E08A62670@mac.com>
	<3096c19d0707191445k3d040f7x757c43eb96cf7c6c@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <469FF2AD.9070405@grassart.com>

Chris McAvoy wrote:
> On 7/19/07, Ted Pollari <tcp at mac.com> wrote:
>   
>> (I'm not fond of Uno -- plus you can find them all over the country
>> in chain form and Geno's East is hit or miss in my opinion...but
>> that's probably just me)
>>     
I agree that the franchised Uno's locations aren't very good, but the 
original one downtown is really not the same IMO.
> Lou Malnati's!  Lou Malnati's!
>   
Actually, Pizano's is owned by Lou's brother, Rudy Malnati Jr., so they 
have similar pizzas. (Their father started it all by opening Pizzeria 
Uno, see: http://www.pizanoschicago.com/about.html) Personally, I prefer 
Lou's for deep-dish and Pizano's for thin, but both places are excellent.

Anyways, I only mentioned Pizano's because of the original request for a 
place near Grant Park. =)

-Damien

From bradyc at google.com  Fri Jul 20 01:29:40 2007
From: bradyc at google.com (Brady Cox)
Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2007 18:29:40 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] Chicago visit
In-Reply-To: <469FF2AD.9070405@grassart.com>
References: <4335d2c40705231309g6440a4ecjc6a6b41c69e5113f@mail.gmail.com>
	<4335d2c40706071346h3f079d0akd4c8bc5cd1224912@mail.gmail.com>
	<4335d2c40707181204q65b08311le26f2d2b080c80dd@mail.gmail.com>
	<E98A8AE8-23A7-42A8-B158-8DC8A07618F4@mac.com>
	<469FC383.9030603@grassart.com> <469FC856.5050907@personnelware.com>
	<16E98871-3C5B-4B5C-94A0-7F1E08A62670@mac.com>
	<3096c19d0707191445k3d040f7x757c43eb96cf7c6c@mail.gmail.com>
	<469FF2AD.9070405@grassart.com>
Message-ID: <2dfd89af0707191629o941233bqd7244a7a32131920@mail.gmail.com>

Wow.  There's a good documentary in the making.

On 7/19/07, Damien Grassart <damien at grassart.com> wrote:
>
> Chris McAvoy wrote:
> > On 7/19/07, Ted Pollari <tcp at mac.com> wrote:
> >
> >> (I'm not fond of Uno -- plus you can find them all over the country
> >> in chain form and Geno's East is hit or miss in my opinion...but
> >> that's probably just me)
> >>
> I agree that the franchised Uno's locations aren't very good, but the
> original one downtown is really not the same IMO.
> > Lou Malnati's!  Lou Malnati's!
> >
> Actually, Pizano's is owned by Lou's brother, Rudy Malnati Jr., so they
> have similar pizzas. (Their father started it all by opening Pizzeria
> Uno, see: http://www.pizanoschicago.com/about.html) Personally, I prefer
> Lou's for deep-dish and Pizano's for thin, but both places are excellent.
>
> Anyways, I only mentioned Pizano's because of the original request for a
> place near Grant Park. =)
>
> -Damien
> _______________________________________________
> Chicago mailing list
> Chicago at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>



-- 
Brady Cox
Google Chicago DTA
"Give me six hours to chop down a tree and I will spend the first four
sharpening the axe." - Abraham Lincoln
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From david at graniteweb.com  Fri Jul 20 01:40:03 2007
From: david at graniteweb.com (David Rock)
Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2007 18:40:03 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] Chicago visit
In-Reply-To: <469FF2AD.9070405@grassart.com>
References: <4335d2c40705231309g6440a4ecjc6a6b41c69e5113f@mail.gmail.com>
	<4335d2c40706071346h3f079d0akd4c8bc5cd1224912@mail.gmail.com>
	<4335d2c40707181204q65b08311le26f2d2b080c80dd@mail.gmail.com>
	<E98A8AE8-23A7-42A8-B158-8DC8A07618F4@mac.com>
	<469FC383.9030603@grassart.com>
	<469FC856.5050907@personnelware.com>
	<16E98871-3C5B-4B5C-94A0-7F1E08A62670@mac.com>
	<3096c19d0707191445k3d040f7x757c43eb96cf7c6c@mail.gmail.com>
	<469FF2AD.9070405@grassart.com>
Message-ID: <20070719234003.GB13800@wdfs.graniteweb.com>

* Damien Grassart <damien at grassart.com> [2007-07-19 18:24]:
> Chris McAvoy wrote:
> > On 7/19/07, Ted Pollari <tcp at mac.com> wrote:
> >   
> >> (I'm not fond of Uno -- plus you can find them all over the country
> >> in chain form and Geno's East is hit or miss in my opinion...but
> >> that's probably just me)
> >>     
> I agree that the franchised Uno's locations aren't very good, but the 
> original one downtown is really not the same IMO.
> > Lou Malnati's!  Lou Malnati's!
> >   
> Actually, Pizano's is owned by Lou's brother, Rudy Malnati Jr., so they 
> have similar pizzas. (Their father started it all by opening Pizzeria 
> Uno, see: http://www.pizanoschicago.com/about.html) Personally, I prefer 
> Lou's for deep-dish and Pizano's for thin, but both places are excellent.
> 
> Anyways, I only mentioned Pizano's because of the original request for a 
> place near Grant Park. =)

I'd vote for Pizano's any day.

-- 
David Rock
david at graniteweb.com

From peter at placidpublishing.net  Fri Jul 20 02:24:26 2007
From: peter at placidpublishing.net (Placid Publishing, LLC)
Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2007 19:24:26 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] Emergency - In Need Of Developer
Message-ID: <46A000BA.9020207@placidpublishing.net>

I need a developer in the US (only) with at least 2 years experience 
with Django/Python to fix and optimize a Django site I had done a few 
weeks back. The original developer can no longer be contacted and the 
code is horribly inefficient, delaying the site from launch. Please 
email me for more details.

Thanks,
Peter

 

 


From cstejerean at gmail.com  Fri Jul 20 16:56:48 2007
From: cstejerean at gmail.com (Cosmin Stejerean)
Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2007 09:56:48 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] Emergency - In Need Of Developer
In-Reply-To: <46A000BA.9020207@placidpublishing.net>
References: <46A000BA.9020207@placidpublishing.net>
Message-ID: <8167AC3A-9A8A-494D-A9AD-FBF6E9C51F76@gmail.com>



Cosmin Stejerean (m)


On Jul 19, 2007, at 7:24 PM, "Placid Publishing, LLC" <peter at placidpublishing.net 
 > wrote:

> I need a developer in the US (only) with at least 2 years experience
> with Django/Python to fix and optimize a Django site I had done a few
> weeks back. The original developer can no longer be contacted and the
> code is horribly inefficient, delaying the site from launch. Please
> email me for more details.
>
> Thanks,
> Peter
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Chicago mailing list
> Chicago at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago

From cstejerean at gmail.com  Fri Jul 20 16:57:51 2007
From: cstejerean at gmail.com (Cosmin Stejerean)
Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2007 09:57:51 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] Emergency - In Need Of Developer
In-Reply-To: <46A000BA.9020207@placidpublishing.net>
References: <46A000BA.9020207@placidpublishing.net>
Message-ID: <CF33D68B-EDB1-4DF7-83B9-E1688988DAB7@gmail.com>

I would like to know more about the details of this contract.

Cosmin Stejerean (m)


On Jul 19, 2007, at 7:24 PM, "Placid Publishing, LLC" <peter at placidpublishing.net 
 > wrote:

> I need a developer in the US (only) with at least 2 years experience
> with Django/Python to fix and optimize a Django site I had done a few
> weeks back. The original developer can no longer be contacted and the
> code is horribly inefficient, delaying the site from launch. Please
> email me for more details.
>
> Thanks,
> Peter
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Chicago mailing list
> Chicago at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago

From bray at sent.com  Fri Jul 20 17:11:54 2007
From: bray at sent.com (Brian Ray)
Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2007 10:11:54 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] Emergency - In Need Of Developer
In-Reply-To: <46A000BA.9020207@placidpublishing.net>
References: <46A000BA.9020207@placidpublishing.net>
Message-ID: <F2F14B84-5D43-49F7-B80E-FD16D7C1AAAA@sent.com>


On Jul 19, 2007, at 7:24 PM, Placid Publishing, LLC wrote:

> I need a developer in the US (only) with at least 2 years experience
> with Django/Python to fix and optimize a Django site I had done a few
> weeks back. The original developer can no longer be contacted and the
> code is horribly inefficient, delaying the site from launch. Please
> email me for more details.

I am a little confused about your posting. Did you do the Django site  
or did the developer who can no longer be contacted?

Just for the record, I do not mind people posting jobs here. I think  
they should not require relocation to California--just an example, I  
have nothing against California.  It sounds like this job will not  
require relocation.  Although, I encourage those looking for  
developers who post to this list to be very clear, concise, and  
specific on the requirements and contingencies regarding the position  
you wish to fill.

For example I encourage that it be specified:

- Part time of Full
- benefits
- Tax and Pay situation
- Expected Length of Arrangement
- In Office or Telecommute
- The company name who is looking to hire ( or hiring agency)
- The industry this company serves
- list of skills desired (just "Python" could mean a lot of different  
things)
- background desired for candidate
- a request for resume, references, and any other material
- other places this job listing will be posted: like http:// 
www.python.org/community/jobs/ or    http://code.djangoproject.com/ 
wiki/DevelopersForHire

This is not entirely directed toward this particular posting.  
However, you may get better results and be better received if you  
follow this format. At least, lets keep job posting professional and  
relevent to ChiPy.

Brian Ray
bray at sent.com
http://kazavoo.com/blog



From skip at pobox.com  Fri Jul 20 17:41:08 2007
From: skip at pobox.com (skip at pobox.com)
Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2007 10:41:08 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] Emergency - In Need Of Developer
In-Reply-To: <F2F14B84-5D43-49F7-B80E-FD16D7C1AAAA@sent.com>
References: <46A000BA.9020207@placidpublishing.net>
	<F2F14B84-5D43-49F7-B80E-FD16D7C1AAAA@sent.com>
Message-ID: <18080.55188.665148.67368@montanaro.dyndns.org>


    Brian> Just for the record, I do not mind people posting jobs here. I
    Brian> think they should not require relocation to California--just an
    Brian> example, I have nothing against California.  It sounds like this
    Brian> job will not require relocation.  Although, I encourage those
    Brian> looking for developers who post to this list to be very clear,
    Brian> concise, and specific on the requirements and contingencies
    Brian> regarding the position you wish to fill.

Whenever someone posts a job announcement here I generally reply off-list
with relevant pointers to the Python Job Board.

    Brian> For example I encourage that it be specified:
    ...

Maybe just point them to the PJB submission instructions:

    http://www.python.org/community/jobs/howto

That way they can kill two birds with one stone.

    Brian> ... you may get better results and be better received if you
    Brian> follow this format.  At least, lets keep job posting professional
    Brian> and relevent to ChiPy.

Agreed.

Skip

From dpratt at roytalman.com  Fri Jul 20 16:58:51 2007
From: dpratt at roytalman.com (Pratt, Doug)
Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2007 09:58:51 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] Chicagoland Python Developer positions
Message-ID: <FBE61B6C5FE02547BBA6A1B324F2D6834EAA83@portalserver2k6.roytalman.com>

I've just begun working with a new client. It's a young company in the
Northern Suburbs that is pioneering a new web based service, offering an
industry first solution. Currently at 93 employees they plan to double in
the next year. Their service is based on Python and Java. I'm looking for
people who love Python and want to expand their knowledge in a fast paced,
exciting environment. Email contact preferred, feel free to send me your
resume.
 
Doug Pratt
 
IT Executive Recruiter
Roy Talman & Associates
150 S. Wacker Dr. Suite 1300
Chicago IL 60606
Phone: 312-425-1313 x 131
Fax: 312-425-0100
dpratt at roytalman.com <mailto:dpratt at roytalman.com> 
www.roytalman.com
 
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From carl at personnelware.com  Fri Jul 20 19:15:37 2007
From: carl at personnelware.com (Carl Karsten)
Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2007 12:15:37 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] Emergency - In Need Of Developer
In-Reply-To: <F2F14B84-5D43-49F7-B80E-FD16D7C1AAAA@sent.com>
References: <46A000BA.9020207@placidpublishing.net>
	<F2F14B84-5D43-49F7-B80E-FD16D7C1AAAA@sent.com>
Message-ID: <46A0EDB9.4030904@personnelware.com>

Brian Ray wrote:
> On Jul 19, 2007, at 7:24 PM, Placid Publishing, LLC wrote:
> 
>> I need a developer in the US (only) with at least 2 years experience
>> with Django/Python to fix and optimize a Django site I had done a few
>> weeks back. The original developer can no longer be contacted and the
>> code is horribly inefficient, delaying the site from launch. Please
>> email me for more details.
> 
> I am a little confused about your posting. Did you do the Django site  
> or did the developer who can no longer be contacted?

Based on some #django and #chipy stuff: Peter hired someone who can no longer be 
contacted.

I have an idea: Peter should host a "django best practices" seminar.  use his 
project as a case study, have someone in the area lead a group of us (I would 
attend) in examining what was done wrong and how to improve it.

I have gotten closer in my 'django component' quest.  between what is planned 
for django 1.0 and what is currently available, it just might be obtainable.  my 
calendar and message stuff might also be good for dissecting.

Carl K

From goodger at python.org  Sat Jul 21 15:05:20 2007
From: goodger at python.org (David Goodger)
Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2007 08:05:20 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] Chicago visit
In-Reply-To: <4335d2c40707181204q65b08311le26f2d2b080c80dd@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4335d2c40705231309g6440a4ecjc6a6b41c69e5113f@mail.gmail.com>	
	<4335d2c40706071346h3f079d0akd4c8bc5cd1224912@mail.gmail.com>
	<4335d2c40707181204q65b08311le26f2d2b080c80dd@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <46A20490.6020302@python.org>

It looks like Pizzeria Uno (the original -- don't know the address) is the lunch
place.  Meeting there sometime after 1pm today.

I'll be offline until then.

-- 
David Goodger <http://python.net/~goodger>

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From shekay at pobox.com  Sat Jul 21 17:43:52 2007
From: shekay at pobox.com (sheila miguez)
Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2007 10:43:52 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] Chicago visit
In-Reply-To: <469FF2AD.9070405@grassart.com>
References: <4335d2c40705231309g6440a4ecjc6a6b41c69e5113f@mail.gmail.com>
	<4335d2c40706071346h3f079d0akd4c8bc5cd1224912@mail.gmail.com>
	<4335d2c40707181204q65b08311le26f2d2b080c80dd@mail.gmail.com>
	<E98A8AE8-23A7-42A8-B158-8DC8A07618F4@mac.com>
	<469FC383.9030603@grassart.com> <469FC856.5050907@personnelware.com>
	<16E98871-3C5B-4B5C-94A0-7F1E08A62670@mac.com>
	<3096c19d0707191445k3d040f7x757c43eb96cf7c6c@mail.gmail.com>
	<469FF2AD.9070405@grassart.com>
Message-ID: <a68ced640707210843m379789adx1dda359463537ea1@mail.gmail.com>

On 7/19/07, Damien Grassart <damien at grassart.com> wrote:
> Chris McAvoy wrote:
> > On 7/19/07, Ted Pollari <tcp at mac.com> wrote:
> >
> >> (I'm not fond of Uno -- plus you can find them all over the country
> >> in chain form and Geno's East is hit or miss in my opinion...but
> >> that's probably just me)
> >>
> I agree that the franchised Uno's locations aren't very good, but the
> original one downtown is really not the same IMO.

They don't cook the pizza enough and it's undercooked on the inside.
Even when I asked them to cook it longer it was undercooked. I should
ask them to burn it.

I want to try the original location of Ho7 one day. The one on State
or wherever is eh.

No one has suggested bbq places. There are lots. lthforum.com guys are obsessed.

It's too late now... I see downthread that you guys are going to Unos.
There's also Dues, catecorner.

Hot Dougs++

-- 
sheila

From shekay at pobox.com  Sun Jul 22 15:06:46 2007
From: shekay at pobox.com (sheila miguez)
Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2007 08:06:46 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] Emergency - In Need Of Developer
In-Reply-To: <46A0EDB9.4030904@personnelware.com>
References: <46A000BA.9020207@placidpublishing.net>
	<F2F14B84-5D43-49F7-B80E-FD16D7C1AAAA@sent.com>
	<46A0EDB9.4030904@personnelware.com>
Message-ID: <a68ced640707220606r295b6207lfe6ef93f01d051de@mail.gmail.com>

On 7/20/07, Carl Karsten <carl at personnelware.com> wrote:

> I have an idea: Peter should host a "django best practices" seminar.  use his
> project as a case study, have someone in the area lead a group of us (I would
> attend) in examining what was done wrong and how to improve it.

Did the project fail because of ignorant use of django/python and/or
screwed up development processes in general? might want to have a talk
about mature development processes + python.

a la http://www.dreamingincode.com/

-- 
sheila

From shekay at pobox.com  Sun Jul 22 15:08:52 2007
From: shekay at pobox.com (sheila miguez)
Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2007 08:08:52 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] code review tools
Message-ID: <a68ced640707220608g7fec4e38xf6c1f6c5c76e3745@mail.gmail.com>

Do any of you guys have good code review tools? I'm playing around
with reviewboard.

-- 
sheila

From pfein at pobox.com  Sun Jul 22 15:26:36 2007
From: pfein at pobox.com (Pete)
Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2007 08:26:36 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] code review tools
In-Reply-To: <a68ced640707220608g7fec4e38xf6c1f6c5c76e3745@mail.gmail.com>
References: <a68ced640707220608g7fec4e38xf6c1f6c5c76e3745@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <200707220826.37289.pfein@pobox.com>

On Sunday July 22 2007 8:08 am, sheila miguez wrote:
> Do any of you guys have good code review tools? I'm playing around
> with reviewboard.

Mondrian.  It's even written in Python!

http://www.niallkennedy.com/blog/archives/2006/11/google-mondrian.html

Fitz, a little help please? ;-P

--Pete

-- 
Peter Fein   ||   773-575-0694   ||   pfein at pobox.com
http://www.pobox.com/~pfein/   ||   PGP: 0xCCF6AE6B
irc: pfein at freenode.net   ||   jabber: peter.fein at gmail.com

From fitz at red-bean.com  Sun Jul 22 15:49:48 2007
From: fitz at red-bean.com (Brian W. Fitzpatrick)
Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2007 08:49:48 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] code review tools
In-Reply-To: <200707220826.37289.pfein@pobox.com>
References: <a68ced640707220608g7fec4e38xf6c1f6c5c76e3745@mail.gmail.com>
	<200707220826.37289.pfein@pobox.com>
Message-ID: <a5375ad50707220649h31ab8502v1f053f119280dcd6@mail.gmail.com>

On 7/22/07, Pete <pfein at pobox.com> wrote:
> On Sunday July 22 2007 8:08 am, sheila miguez wrote:
> > Do any of you guys have good code review tools? I'm playing around
> > with reviewboard.
>
> Mondrian.  It's even written in Python!
>
> http://www.niallkennedy.com/blog/archives/2006/11/google-mondrian.html
>
> Fitz, a little help please? ;-P

Heh.  You'll have to talk to Guido, but he's a little busy :)

-Fitz

From carl at personnelware.com  Sun Jul 22 16:04:25 2007
From: carl at personnelware.com (Carl Karsten)
Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2007 09:04:25 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] code review tools
In-Reply-To: <a68ced640707220608g7fec4e38xf6c1f6c5c76e3745@mail.gmail.com>
References: <a68ced640707220608g7fec4e38xf6c1f6c5c76e3745@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <46A363E9.60206@personnelware.com>

sheila miguez wrote:
> Do any of you guys have good code review tools? I'm playing around
> with reviewboard.
> 


http://www.review-board.org

"""
Review Board is a web-based tool designed to help projects and companies keep 
track of pending code changes and make code reviews much less painful and 
time-consuming. It is being developed for use in VMware, but is designed to be 
generic enough to use in any project. It supports SVNs and Perforce natively, 
though other SCM backends can be written for it.

Review Board is written using Django and Python.
""" - http://code.google.com/p/reviewboard/

From varmaa at gmail.com  Sun Jul 22 17:47:22 2007
From: varmaa at gmail.com (Atul Varma)
Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2007 10:47:22 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] Emergency - In Need Of Developer
In-Reply-To: <a68ced640707220606r295b6207lfe6ef93f01d051de@mail.gmail.com>
References: <46A000BA.9020207@placidpublishing.net>
	<F2F14B84-5D43-49F7-B80E-FD16D7C1AAAA@sent.com>
	<46A0EDB9.4030904@personnelware.com>
	<a68ced640707220606r295b6207lfe6ef93f01d051de@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <361b27370707220847l6cb76des9585d20aec868fe5@mail.gmail.com>

On 7/22/07, sheila miguez <shekay at pobox.com> wrote:
> Did the project fail because of ignorant use of django/python and/or
> screwed up development processes in general? might want to have a talk
> about mature development processes + python.
>
> a la http://www.dreamingincode.com/

Has anyone else read this book?  I finished it a few months ago and
really enjoyed it... Been meaning to write a review of it, actually,
but never got around to it.

I know a lot of people who work in the industry don't want to read
about this kind of stuff in their spare time, which is
understandable--so I suggest you consider getting this book as a gift
for someone you know. They'll be able to relate to you better, you'll
probably have some great conversations and learn something from each
other as a result. It's really the kind of book that can "bridge the
gap" between the software developer and the layperson.

- Atul

From varmaa at gmail.com  Sun Jul 22 17:59:33 2007
From: varmaa at gmail.com (Atul Varma)
Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2007 10:59:33 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] code review tools
In-Reply-To: <200707220826.37289.pfein@pobox.com>
References: <a68ced640707220608g7fec4e38xf6c1f6c5c76e3745@mail.gmail.com>
	<200707220826.37289.pfein@pobox.com>
Message-ID: <361b27370707220859g7872d518g1d1cd3d4e078a228@mail.gmail.com>

On 7/22/07, Pete <pfein at pobox.com> wrote:
> On Sunday July 22 2007 8:08 am, sheila miguez wrote:
> > Do any of you guys have good code review tools? I'm playing around
> > with reviewboard.
>
> Mondrian.  It's even written in Python!
>
> http://www.niallkennedy.com/blog/archives/2006/11/google-mondrian.html
>
> Fitz, a little help please? ;-P

According to that blog post:

"""
The application is so deeply intertwined with Google technologies it's
not likely to be available as open source until Subversion and a
backend such as SQLite can be supported.
"""

So it looks like the actual product won't be usable by non-Googlers
for some time, unless the situation has changed.  That blog post is
from November of last year, so maybe it has?

There's also this trac plugin, but I haven't actually used it myself:

  http://trac-hacks.org/wiki/PeerReviewPlugin

If anyone has tried it, I'd love to know what they think of it.

- Atul

From shekay at pobox.com  Sun Jul 22 18:17:00 2007
From: shekay at pobox.com (sheila miguez)
Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2007 11:17:00 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] code review tools
In-Reply-To: <361b27370707220859g7872d518g1d1cd3d4e078a228@mail.gmail.com>
References: <a68ced640707220608g7fec4e38xf6c1f6c5c76e3745@mail.gmail.com>
	<200707220826.37289.pfein@pobox.com>
	<361b27370707220859g7872d518g1d1cd3d4e078a228@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <a68ced640707220916w6584c055q9933c7b345a01047@mail.gmail.com>

On 7/22/07, Atul Varma <varmaa at gmail.com> wrote:
> On 7/22/07, Pete <pfein at pobox.com> wrote:
> > On Sunday July 22 2007 8:08 am, sheila miguez wrote:
> > > Do any of you guys have good code review tools? I'm playing around
> > > with reviewboard.
> >
> > Mondrian.  It's even written in Python!
> >
> > http://www.niallkennedy.com/blog/archives/2006/11/google-mondrian.html
> >
> > Fitz, a little help please? ;-P
>
> According to that blog post:
>
> """
> The application is so deeply intertwined with Google technologies it's
> not likely to be available as open source until Subversion and a
> backend such as SQLite can be supported.
> """
>
> So it looks like the actual product won't be usable by non-Googlers
> for some time, unless the situation has changed.  That blog post is
> from November of last year, so maybe it has?

If it has, I'd like to hear about it, but I didn't think anything had
changed since then.

I hope they make it easy to extend. I want something that I can make
work with accurev.


-- 
sheila

From shekay at pobox.com  Sun Jul 22 18:23:03 2007
From: shekay at pobox.com (sheila miguez)
Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2007 11:23:03 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] Emergency - In Need Of Developer
In-Reply-To: <361b27370707220847l6cb76des9585d20aec868fe5@mail.gmail.com>
References: <46A000BA.9020207@placidpublishing.net>
	<F2F14B84-5D43-49F7-B80E-FD16D7C1AAAA@sent.com>
	<46A0EDB9.4030904@personnelware.com>
	<a68ced640707220606r295b6207lfe6ef93f01d051de@mail.gmail.com>
	<361b27370707220847l6cb76des9585d20aec868fe5@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <a68ced640707220923t38eb7370m6946e7d8674884ad@mail.gmail.com>

On 7/22/07, Atul Varma <varmaa at gmail.com> wrote:
> On 7/22/07, sheila miguez <shekay at pobox.com> wrote:
> > Did the project fail because of ignorant use of django/python and/or
> > screwed up development processes in general? might want to have a talk
> > about mature development processes + python.
> >
> > a la http://www.dreamingincode.com/
>
> Has anyone else read this book?  I finished it a few months ago and
> really enjoyed it... Been meaning to write a review of it, actually,
> but never got around to it.

I've read it. It's not bad.

> I know a lot of people who work in the industry don't want to read
> about this kind of stuff in their spare time, which is
> understandable--so I suggest you consider getting this book as a gift

People should read about this stuff especially if they have to survive
working in a large company.

One would hope managers read this stuff.

Mythical Man Month
articles about no silver bullets
Deathmarch
Peopleware
...

One of my exs gave me a lot of software engineering books along with
books like these. really great gift.

-- 
sheila

From david at graniteweb.com  Mon Jul 23 06:06:44 2007
From: david at graniteweb.com (David Rock)
Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2007 23:06:44 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] How do you troubleshoot cgi errors?
Message-ID: <20070723040644.GC32666@wdfs.graniteweb.com>

This one is driving me nuts.  I have a simple cgi interface that I
occasionally get a "CGI Error - Bad content header" message from.   It's
particularly annoying because the problem is not easily or consistently
repeatable.  I know that what's actually happening is the html being
sent is angering the html gods, but the browser contents tell me nothing
about what the actual text attempting to be processed looks like. 

I am already trying to use cgitb to catch what's happening, to no avail.
That _does_ work if a real traceback error crops up, but this appears to
be something different.  It almost looks like the script itself is not
running properly from time to time, creating a partial page.

Does anyone have any ideas about how to monitor what is actually being
generated and sent to the browser?  I'm almost to the point where I am
considering creating duplicate print statements to an external log for
everything I am printing, but that seems crazy to have to go that far.
Isn't there any way to debug/monitor cgi output?

This is a Windows Server 2003 system running IIS 6.0, if that gives
anyone any ideas (not my choice of webservers) :-(

-- 
David Rock
david at graniteweb.com

From bray at sent.com  Mon Jul 23 15:35:59 2007
From: bray at sent.com (Brian Ray)
Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2007 08:35:59 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] code review tools
In-Reply-To: <a5375ad50707220649h31ab8502v1f053f119280dcd6@mail.gmail.com>
References: <a68ced640707220608g7fec4e38xf6c1f6c5c76e3745@mail.gmail.com>
	<200707220826.37289.pfein@pobox.com>
	<a5375ad50707220649h31ab8502v1f053f119280dcd6@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <BB9EF730-5264-4960-AA36-A1692ED5DD3D@sent.com>


On Jul 22, 2007, at 8:49 AM, Brian W. Fitzpatrick wrote:

> On 7/22/07, Pete <pfein at pobox.com> wrote:
>> On Sunday July 22 2007 8:08 am, sheila miguez wrote:
>>> Do any of you guys have good code review tools? I'm playing around
>>> with reviewboard.
>>
>> Mondrian.  It's even written in Python!
>>
>> http://www.niallkennedy.com/blog/archives/2006/11/google- 
>> mondrian.html
>>
>> Fitz, a little help please? ;-P
>
> Heh.  You'll have to talk to Guido, but he's a little busy :)

I started looking at this but found it was built for Perforce.  I am  
sure it will not take long to get Subversion support.

-- Brian


From bray at sent.com  Mon Jul 23 15:44:35 2007
From: bray at sent.com (Brian Ray)
Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2007 08:44:35 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] code review tools
In-Reply-To: <BB9EF730-5264-4960-AA36-A1692ED5DD3D@sent.com>
References: <a68ced640707220608g7fec4e38xf6c1f6c5c76e3745@mail.gmail.com>
	<200707220826.37289.pfein@pobox.com>
	<a5375ad50707220649h31ab8502v1f053f119280dcd6@mail.gmail.com>
	<BB9EF730-5264-4960-AA36-A1692ED5DD3D@sent.com>
Message-ID: <542AED44-EC19-478A-BC10-CA9A0EEC57BA@sent.com>


On Jul 23, 2007, at 8:35 AM, Brian Ray wrote:

>
> I started looking at this but found it was built for Perforce.  I am
> sure it will not take long to get Subversion support.
>

Oh yeah, and it uses Bit Table. I might have a hard time getting my  
hands on that. Although, I read the white paper and stayed at the  
Holiday In Express, last night... so who knows?

--Brian


From ianb at colorstudy.com  Mon Jul 23 16:29:35 2007
From: ianb at colorstudy.com (Ian Bicking)
Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2007 09:29:35 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] How do you troubleshoot cgi errors?
In-Reply-To: <20070723040644.GC32666@wdfs.graniteweb.com>
References: <20070723040644.GC32666@wdfs.graniteweb.com>
Message-ID: <46A4BB4F.50109@colorstudy.com>

David Rock wrote:
> This one is driving me nuts.  I have a simple cgi interface that I
> occasionally get a "CGI Error - Bad content header" message from.   It's
> particularly annoying because the problem is not easily or consistently
> repeatable.  I know that what's actually happening is the html being
> sent is angering the html gods, but the browser contents tell me nothing
> about what the actual text attempting to be processed looks like. 
> 
> I am already trying to use cgitb to catch what's happening, to no avail.
> That _does_ work if a real traceback error crops up, but this appears to
> be something different.  It almost looks like the script itself is not
> running properly from time to time, creating a partial page.
> 
> Does anyone have any ideas about how to monitor what is actually being
> generated and sent to the browser?  I'm almost to the point where I am
> considering creating duplicate print statements to an external log for
> everything I am printing, but that seems crazy to have to go that far.
> Isn't there any way to debug/monitor cgi output?

You can do something like this:

class ReplStdOut(object):
     def __init__(self, *files):
         self.files = files
     def __getattr__(self, attr):
         def repl_method(*args, **kw):
             for f in self.files:
                 value = getattr(f, attr)(*args, **kw)
             return value
         return repl_method

sys.stdout = ReplStdout(sys.stdout, open('output.log', 'a'))


You might not want to append it all to the same file, but something like 
that will work.


-- 
Ian Bicking : ianb at colorstudy.com : http://blog.ianbicking.org
             : Write code, do good : http://topp.openplans.org/careers

From cwebber at imagescape.com  Mon Jul 23 18:09:32 2007
From: cwebber at imagescape.com (Christopher Allan Webber)
Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2007 11:09:32 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] code review tools
In-Reply-To: <46A363E9.60206@personnelware.com> (Carl Karsten's message of
	"Sun, 22 Jul 2007 09:04:25 -0500")
References: <a68ced640707220608g7fec4e38xf6c1f6c5c76e3745@mail.gmail.com>
	<46A363E9.60206@personnelware.com>
Message-ID: <6ytzrvm79f.fsf@moretomore.rd.imagescape.com>

One of the things I feared about leaving Google was leaving Mondrian.
But having used Review Board a bit, well, I've been pretty happy.

There are two things that I've really been wanting from it though...
 - interdiff reviews.  But I've seen a couple weeks back in the svn
   logs that this has been added, but that the UI for it wasn't
   exposed quite yet.  I'm not sure if this has changed, haven't
   updated in some time because I'm too lazy to update the database to
   reflect changes in the models
 - some sort of official release. :) But hey, it actually tends to be
   quite stable right out of SVN...

It's really easy to set up, run, and use.  I really do recommend it.


Carl Karsten <carl at personnelware.com> writes:

> sheila miguez wrote:
>> Do any of you guys have good code review tools? I'm playing around
>> with reviewboard.
>> 
>
>
> http://www.review-board.org
>
> """
> Review Board is a web-based tool designed to help projects and companies keep 
> track of pending code changes and make code reviews much less painful and 
> time-consuming. It is being developed for use in VMware, but is designed to be 
> generic enough to use in any project. It supports SVNs and Perforce natively, 
> though other SCM backends can be written for it.
>
> Review Board is written using Django and Python.
> """ - http://code.google.com/p/reviewboard/
> _______________________________________________
> Chicago mailing list
> Chicago at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago

From david at graniteweb.com  Mon Jul 23 19:19:43 2007
From: david at graniteweb.com (David Rock)
Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2007 12:19:43 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] How do you troubleshoot cgi errors?
In-Reply-To: <46A4BB4F.50109@colorstudy.com>
References: <20070723040644.GC32666@wdfs.graniteweb.com>
	<46A4BB4F.50109@colorstudy.com>
Message-ID: <20070723171943.GD32666@wdfs.graniteweb.com>

* Ian Bicking <ianb at colorstudy.com> [2007-07-23 09:29]:
> 
> You can do something like this:
> 
> class ReplStdOut(object):
>      def __init__(self, *files):
>          self.files = files
>      def __getattr__(self, attr):
>          def repl_method(*args, **kw):
>              for f in self.files:
>                  value = getattr(f, attr)(*args, **kw)
>              return value
>          return repl_method
> 
> sys.stdout = ReplStdout(sys.stdout, open('output.log', 'a'))

For those that want to try this out, there is a small typo, but it does
work (very well, btw).  Here is the fixed version:

class ReplStdOut(object):
     def __init__(self, *files):
         self.files = files
     def __getattr__(self, attr):
         def repl_method(*args, **kw):
             for f in self.files:
                 value = getattr(f, attr)(*args, **kw)
             return value
         return repl_method

sys.stdout = ReplStdOut(sys.stdout, open('output.log', 'a'))


Ok, this is the kind of stuff that reminds me there is always something
new to learn :-)

It looks like this does what I need it to, but what is it actually
doing?  Best as I can tell, this is basically creating a "tee" for
stdout, and looks like it could be to multiple files, not just stdout
and a file, right?  The question I have now is _why_ does this work?

Thanks for the help, btw.  Now all I have to do is wait for my stuff to
break again ;-)

-- 
David Rock
david at graniteweb.com

From ianb at colorstudy.com  Mon Jul 23 19:28:45 2007
From: ianb at colorstudy.com (Ian Bicking)
Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2007 12:28:45 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] How do you troubleshoot cgi errors?
In-Reply-To: <20070723171943.GD32666@wdfs.graniteweb.com>
References: <20070723040644.GC32666@wdfs.graniteweb.com>	<46A4BB4F.50109@colorstudy.com>
	<20070723171943.GD32666@wdfs.graniteweb.com>
Message-ID: <46A4E54D.3010105@colorstudy.com>

David Rock wrote:
> * Ian Bicking <ianb at colorstudy.com> [2007-07-23 09:29]:
>> You can do something like this:
>>
>> class ReplStdOut(object):
>>      def __init__(self, *files):
>>          self.files = files
>>      def __getattr__(self, attr):
>>          def repl_method(*args, **kw):
>>              for f in self.files:
>>                  value = getattr(f, attr)(*args, **kw)
>>              return value
>>          return repl_method
>>
>> sys.stdout = ReplStdout(sys.stdout, open('output.log', 'a'))
> 
> For those that want to try this out, there is a small typo, but it does
> work (very well, btw).  Here is the fixed version:
> 
> class ReplStdOut(object):
>      def __init__(self, *files):
>          self.files = files
>      def __getattr__(self, attr):
>          def repl_method(*args, **kw):
>              for f in self.files:
>                  value = getattr(f, attr)(*args, **kw)
>              return value
>          return repl_method
> 
> sys.stdout = ReplStdOut(sys.stdout, open('output.log', 'a'))
> 
> 
> Ok, this is the kind of stuff that reminds me there is always something
> new to learn :-)
> 
> It looks like this does what I need it to, but what is it actually
> doing?  Best as I can tell, this is basically creating a "tee" for
> stdout, and looks like it could be to multiple files, not just stdout
> and a file, right?  The question I have now is _why_ does this work?

It's actually a tee for any kind of object.  Any method that is called 
gets called on all the sub-objects (self.files in this case).  It only 
returns the return value of the last object, but for files you write to 
there's no meaningful return values anyway.  Similarly it doesn't handle 
attributes, since it treats everything like a method.

The __getattr__ method is called when the object has no other attribute 
-- i.e., if you call obj.foo, then obj.__getattr__('foo') is called (if 
the object has a __getattr__ method, and no foo attribute).  When you 
call obj.foo(x), then obj.__getattr__('foo')(x) is called.

In ReplStdOut whenever you call obj.anything, you get a function back. 
When you call that function, it gets subobject.anything from every 
subobject, and calls that with the arguments you pass in.  The function 
it returns is called a "closure", because the function object remembers 
the value of "self" and "attr" even though they aren't explicit 
arguments to the function.  That's all a closure really is -- a function 
that remembers some extra values.

-- 
Ian Bicking : ianb at colorstudy.com : http://blog.ianbicking.org
             : Write code, do good : http://topp.openplans.org/careers

From david at graniteweb.com  Mon Jul 23 19:29:05 2007
From: david at graniteweb.com (David Rock)
Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2007 12:29:05 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] How do you troubleshoot cgi errors?
In-Reply-To: <361b27370707230807o2a97d867x8e839ca6a876f997@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20070723040644.GC32666@wdfs.graniteweb.com>
	<361b27370707230807o2a97d867x8e839ca6a876f997@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20070723172904.GE32666@wdfs.graniteweb.com>

* Atul Varma <varmaa at gmail.com> [2007-07-23 10:07]:
> I think Ian's solution should work fine for you... To clarify, though,
> I believe that the content your CGI application is generating is
> actually not being sent to your browser because the HTTP headers it's
> sending are malformed (i.e., the problem isn't that your browser won't
> show you some content).  The error is occurring between the web server
> and your CGI application, not between your browser and the server, or
> within your browser.
> 
> For instance, normally a CGI application will print content like this
> to the web server (which the web server passes on to the client):
> 
> --
> Content-Type: text/html
> 
> <p>hello!</p>
> --
> 
> The section at the top that's separated from the HTML is actually part
> of the HTTP/CGI protocol, not the HTML standard, and it's that part
> that your application is somehow not transmitting properly to the web
> server.  The web server is looking at those headers and trying to make
> sure they're kosher, but they're not, so it's raising an error.
> 
> As long as you get those headers right, though, everything else will
> be sent to your web browser and you can debug it from there.
> 
> I hope this helps shed some light on things... It's morning and I'm
> not quite thinking straight, so I'm not sure how much sense this
> makes.  Let me know if you need any more help.

Yeah, I think I get it.  I may not have been all that clear, either.  My
gut thought is that it's just totally getting chewed up for some reason
and producing garbage that never leaves the server, so I think that is
similar to what you are saying.  

Thanks for the input.  Every little bit helps. :-)

-- 
David Rock
david at graniteweb.com

From david at graniteweb.com  Mon Jul 23 19:35:29 2007
From: david at graniteweb.com (David Rock)
Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2007 12:35:29 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] How do you troubleshoot cgi errors?
In-Reply-To: <46A4E54D.3010105@colorstudy.com>
References: <20070723040644.GC32666@wdfs.graniteweb.com>
	<46A4BB4F.50109@colorstudy.com>
	<20070723171943.GD32666@wdfs.graniteweb.com>
	<46A4E54D.3010105@colorstudy.com>
Message-ID: <20070723173529.GF32666@wdfs.graniteweb.com>

* Ian Bicking <ianb at colorstudy.com> [2007-07-23 12:28]:
> It's actually a tee for any kind of object.  Any method that is called 
> gets called on all the sub-objects (self.files in this case).  It only 
> returns the return value of the last object, but for files you write to 
> there's no meaningful return values anyway.  Similarly it doesn't handle 
> attributes, since it treats everything like a method.
> 
> The __getattr__ method is called when the object has no other attribute 
> -- i.e., if you call obj.foo, then obj.__getattr__('foo') is called (if 
> the object has a __getattr__ method, and no foo attribute).  When you 
> call obj.foo(x), then obj.__getattr__('foo')(x) is called.
> 
> In ReplStdOut whenever you call obj.anything, you get a function back. 
> When you call that function, it gets subobject.anything from every 
> subobject, and calls that with the arguments you pass in.  The function 
> it returns is called a "closure", because the function object remembers 
> the value of "self" and "attr" even though they aren't explicit 
> arguments to the function.  That's all a closure really is -- a function 
> that remembers some extra values.

Wowsers.  I'm gonna have to chew on that one a little bit.  I really
like it, though.  I don't suppose you have any ideas of where to look
for further reading on the concepts, do you?

Thanks again.

-- 
David Rock
david at graniteweb.com

From ianb at colorstudy.com  Mon Jul 23 19:56:48 2007
From: ianb at colorstudy.com (Ian Bicking)
Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2007 12:56:48 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] How do you troubleshoot cgi errors?
In-Reply-To: <20070723173529.GF32666@wdfs.graniteweb.com>
References: <20070723040644.GC32666@wdfs.graniteweb.com>	<46A4BB4F.50109@colorstudy.com>	<20070723171943.GD32666@wdfs.graniteweb.com>	<46A4E54D.3010105@colorstudy.com>
	<20070723173529.GF32666@wdfs.graniteweb.com>
Message-ID: <46A4EBE0.5080507@colorstudy.com>

David Rock wrote:
> * Ian Bicking <ianb at colorstudy.com> [2007-07-23 12:28]:
>> It's actually a tee for any kind of object.  Any method that is called 
>> gets called on all the sub-objects (self.files in this case).  It only 
>> returns the return value of the last object, but for files you write to 
>> there's no meaningful return values anyway.  Similarly it doesn't handle 
>> attributes, since it treats everything like a method.
>>
>> The __getattr__ method is called when the object has no other attribute 
>> -- i.e., if you call obj.foo, then obj.__getattr__('foo') is called (if 
>> the object has a __getattr__ method, and no foo attribute).  When you 
>> call obj.foo(x), then obj.__getattr__('foo')(x) is called.
>>
>> In ReplStdOut whenever you call obj.anything, you get a function back. 
>> When you call that function, it gets subobject.anything from every 
>> subobject, and calls that with the arguments you pass in.  The function 
>> it returns is called a "closure", because the function object remembers 
>> the value of "self" and "attr" even though they aren't explicit 
>> arguments to the function.  That's all a closure really is -- a function 
>> that remembers some extra values.
> 
> Wowsers.  I'm gonna have to chew on that one a little bit.  I really
> like it, though.  I don't suppose you have any ideas of where to look
> for further reading on the concepts, do you?

I guess there's a bunch of pieces.  There's getattr(), which you can 
read up on here: 
http://www.diveintopython.org/power_of_introspection/getattr.html

I don't see a lot online on __getattr__.  Huh.  Maybe that's why I 
encounter so many people who are surprised about it.  The reference docs 
for that are here: http://python.org/doc/current/ref/attribute-access.html

For first class functions you might look at Dive Into Python's 
functional section: 
http://diveintopython.org/functional_programming/index.html

For closures I'm not sure... some of the material out there is really 
more complex than it needs to be.  Maybe just reflect on this, the 
simplest of closures:

   def make_returner(return_value):
       def returner():
           return return_value
      return returner

   x = make_returner(1)
   y = make_returner(2)
   x()
   y()

But I dunno.  There's a lot of debate out there about closures, 
functional programming, etc, none of which illuminates the issue.  So 
try not to get distracted by that stuff.


-- 
Ian Bicking : ianb at colorstudy.com : http://blog.ianbicking.org
             : Write code, do good : http://topp.openplans.org/careers

From varmaa at gmail.com  Mon Jul 23 21:00:40 2007
From: varmaa at gmail.com (Atul Varma)
Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2007 14:00:40 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] How do you troubleshoot cgi errors?
In-Reply-To: <46A4EBE0.5080507@colorstudy.com>
References: <20070723040644.GC32666@wdfs.graniteweb.com>
	<46A4BB4F.50109@colorstudy.com>
	<20070723171943.GD32666@wdfs.graniteweb.com>
	<46A4E54D.3010105@colorstudy.com>
	<20070723173529.GF32666@wdfs.graniteweb.com>
	<46A4EBE0.5080507@colorstudy.com>
Message-ID: <361b27370707231200s5f9c20c1ma71ce7c7b462a4be@mail.gmail.com>

A book that documents all of these features of Python very nicely is
Dave Beazley's "Python Essential Reference":

http://www.amazon.com/Python-Essential-Reference-Developers-Library/dp/0672328623/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/105-3514403-2410831?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1185217063&sr=8-1

It's also very useful as a concise introduction to the language.

- Atul

On 7/23/07, Ian Bicking <ianb at colorstudy.com> wrote:
> David Rock wrote:
> > * Ian Bicking <ianb at colorstudy.com> [2007-07-23 12:28]:
> >> It's actually a tee for any kind of object.  Any method that is called
> >> gets called on all the sub-objects (self.files in this case).  It only
> >> returns the return value of the last object, but for files you write to
> >> there's no meaningful return values anyway.  Similarly it doesn't handle
> >> attributes, since it treats everything like a method.
> >>
> >> The __getattr__ method is called when the object has no other attribute
> >> -- i.e., if you call obj.foo, then obj.__getattr__('foo') is called (if
> >> the object has a __getattr__ method, and no foo attribute).  When you
> >> call obj.foo(x), then obj.__getattr__('foo')(x) is called.
> >>
> >> In ReplStdOut whenever you call obj.anything, you get a function back.
> >> When you call that function, it gets subobject.anything from every
> >> subobject, and calls that with the arguments you pass in.  The function
> >> it returns is called a "closure", because the function object remembers
> >> the value of "self" and "attr" even though they aren't explicit
> >> arguments to the function.  That's all a closure really is -- a function
> >> that remembers some extra values.
> >
> > Wowsers.  I'm gonna have to chew on that one a little bit.  I really
> > like it, though.  I don't suppose you have any ideas of where to look
> > for further reading on the concepts, do you?
>
> I guess there's a bunch of pieces.  There's getattr(), which you can
> read up on here:
> http://www.diveintopython.org/power_of_introspection/getattr.html
>
> I don't see a lot online on __getattr__.  Huh.  Maybe that's why I
> encounter so many people who are surprised about it.  The reference docs
> for that are here: http://python.org/doc/current/ref/attribute-access.html
>
> For first class functions you might look at Dive Into Python's
> functional section:
> http://diveintopython.org/functional_programming/index.html
>
> For closures I'm not sure... some of the material out there is really
> more complex than it needs to be.  Maybe just reflect on this, the
> simplest of closures:
>
>    def make_returner(return_value):
>        def returner():
>            return return_value
>       return returner
>
>    x = make_returner(1)
>    y = make_returner(2)
>    x()
>    y()
>
> But I dunno.  There's a lot of debate out there about closures,
> functional programming, etc, none of which illuminates the issue.  So
> try not to get distracted by that stuff.
>
>
> --
> Ian Bicking : ianb at colorstudy.com : http://blog.ianbicking.org
>              : Write code, do good : http://topp.openplans.org/careers
> _______________________________________________
> Chicago mailing list
> Chicago at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>

From david at graniteweb.com  Mon Jul 23 21:25:52 2007
From: david at graniteweb.com (David Rock)
Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2007 14:25:52 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] How do you troubleshoot cgi errors?
In-Reply-To: <361b27370707231200s5f9c20c1ma71ce7c7b462a4be@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20070723040644.GC32666@wdfs.graniteweb.com>
	<46A4BB4F.50109@colorstudy.com>
	<20070723171943.GD32666@wdfs.graniteweb.com>
	<46A4E54D.3010105@colorstudy.com>
	<20070723173529.GF32666@wdfs.graniteweb.com>
	<46A4EBE0.5080507@colorstudy.com>
	<361b27370707231200s5f9c20c1ma71ce7c7b462a4be@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20070723192552.GA4498@wdfs.graniteweb.com>

* Atul Varma <varmaa at gmail.com> [2007-07-23 14:00]:
> A book that documents all of these features of Python very nicely is
> Dave Beazley's "Python Essential Reference":
> 
> http://www.amazon.com/Python-Essential-Reference-Developers-Library/dp/0672328623/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/105-3514403-2410831?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1185217063&sr=8-1
> 
> It's also very useful as a concise introduction to the language.

Yeah, I have the 1st and 2nd editions.  They went a long way toward
helping me get to where I am so far, but I never got around to picking
up the 3rd edition.

-- 
David Rock
david at graniteweb.com

From david at graniteweb.com  Mon Jul 23 21:38:36 2007
From: david at graniteweb.com (David Rock)
Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2007 14:38:36 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] How do you troubleshoot cgi errors?
In-Reply-To: <46A4EBE0.5080507@colorstudy.com>
References: <20070723040644.GC32666@wdfs.graniteweb.com>
	<46A4BB4F.50109@colorstudy.com>
	<20070723171943.GD32666@wdfs.graniteweb.com>
	<46A4E54D.3010105@colorstudy.com>
	<20070723173529.GF32666@wdfs.graniteweb.com>
	<46A4EBE0.5080507@colorstudy.com>
Message-ID: <20070723193836.GB4498@wdfs.graniteweb.com>

* Ian Bicking <ianb at colorstudy.com> [2007-07-23 12:56]:
> 
> I guess there's a bunch of pieces.  There's getattr(), which you can 
> read up on here: 
> http://www.diveintopython.org/power_of_introspection/getattr.html
> 
> I don't see a lot online on __getattr__.  Huh.  Maybe that's why I 
> encounter so many people who are surprised about it.  The reference docs 
> for that are here: http://python.org/doc/current/ref/attribute-access.html

I have used __getattr__ for a couple things before, but never quite like
this.  
 
> For first class functions you might look at Dive Into Python's 
> functional section: 
> http://diveintopython.org/functional_programming/index.html
> 
> For closures I'm not sure... some of the material out there is really 
> more complex than it needs to be.  Maybe just reflect on this, the 
> simplest of closures:
> 
>    def make_returner(return_value):
>        def returner():
>            return return_value
>       return returner
> 
>    x = make_returner(1)
>    y = make_returner(2)
>    x()
>    y()
> 
> But I dunno.  There's a lot of debate out there about closures, 
> functional programming, etc, none of which illuminates the issue.  So 
> try not to get distracted by that stuff.

As always, thanks for all the info :-)

-- 
David Rock
david at graniteweb.com

From pfein at pobox.com  Mon Jul 23 22:17:47 2007
From: pfein at pobox.com (Pete)
Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2007 15:17:47 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] code review tools
In-Reply-To: <200707220826.37289.pfein@pobox.com>
References: <a68ced640707220608g7fec4e38xf6c1f6c5c76e3745@mail.gmail.com>
	<200707220826.37289.pfein@pobox.com>
Message-ID: <200707231517.47502.pfein@pobox.com>

On Sunday July 22 2007 8:26 am, Pete wrote:
> Fitz, a little help please? ;-P

Ok, since it wasn't clear, I was totally being facetious. Smileys just aren't 
a very good nonverbal communication medium.

-- 
Peter Fein   ||   773-575-0694   ||   pfein at pobox.com
http://www.pobox.com/~pfein/   ||   PGP: 0xCCF6AE6B
irc: pfein at freenode.net   ||   jabber: peter.fein at gmail.com

From shekay at pobox.com  Mon Jul 23 22:23:33 2007
From: shekay at pobox.com (sheila miguez)
Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2007 15:23:33 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] code review tools
In-Reply-To: <200707231517.47502.pfein@pobox.com>
References: <a68ced640707220608g7fec4e38xf6c1f6c5c76e3745@mail.gmail.com>
	<200707220826.37289.pfein@pobox.com>
	<200707231517.47502.pfein@pobox.com>
Message-ID: <a68ced640707231323q568e32dbiad76b3841eafd175@mail.gmail.com>

On 7/23/07, Pete <pfein at pobox.com> wrote:
> On Sunday July 22 2007 8:26 am, Pete wrote:
> > Fitz, a little help please? ;-P
>
> Ok, since it wasn't clear, I was totally being facetious. Smileys just aren't
> a very good nonverbal communication medium.

It came as a shock to us all, since you are never facetious.


-- 
sheila

From tottinge at gmail.com  Tue Jul 24 05:30:23 2007
From: tottinge at gmail.com (Tim Ottinger)
Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2007 22:30:23 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] code review tools
In-Reply-To: <a68ced640707231323q568e32dbiad76b3841eafd175@mail.gmail.com>
References: <a68ced640707220608g7fec4e38xf6c1f6c5c76e3745@mail.gmail.com>
	<200707220826.37289.pfein@pobox.com>
	<200707231517.47502.pfein@pobox.com>
	<a68ced640707231323q568e32dbiad76b3841eafd175@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <a975a1ef0707232030l3fe1be32p38e5f2a362a890b0@mail.gmail.com>

How about pair programming? It's a very nice tool that makes reviews almost
transparent. :-)
Not even 1/2 kidding.
Tim

On 7/23/07, sheila miguez <shekay at pobox.com> wrote:
>
> On 7/23/07, Pete <pfein at pobox.com> wrote:
> > On Sunday July 22 2007 8:26 am, Pete wrote:
> > > Fitz, a little help please? ;-P
> >
> > Ok, since it wasn't clear, I was totally being facetious. Smileys just
> aren't
> > a very good nonverbal communication medium.
>
> It came as a shock to us all, since you are never facetious.
>
>
> --
> sheila
> _______________________________________________
> Chicago mailing list
> Chicago at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>
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From bray at sent.com  Tue Jul 24 16:14:52 2007
From: bray at sent.com (Brian Ray)
Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2007 09:14:52 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] code review tools
In-Reply-To: <a975a1ef0707232030l3fe1be32p38e5f2a362a890b0@mail.gmail.com>
References: <a68ced640707220608g7fec4e38xf6c1f6c5c76e3745@mail.gmail.com>
	<200707220826.37289.pfein@pobox.com>
	<200707231517.47502.pfein@pobox.com>
	<a68ced640707231323q568e32dbiad76b3841eafd175@mail.gmail.com>
	<a975a1ef0707232030l3fe1be32p38e5f2a362a890b0@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <2EF3D977-9A60-40A0-B612-A9CD70E56EFB@sent.com>


On Jul 23, 2007, at 10:30 PM, Tim Ottinger wrote:

> How about pair programming? It's a very nice tool that makes  
> reviews almost transparent. :-)
> Not even 1/2 kidding.

What defines a code review tool.  In Mondrian's case, it could be  
done with parallel programming. But even though you are looking at  
DIFF from a pre-commit (facilitated from Perforce), the review is not  
simultaneous.

In the case of simultaneous parallel programming code review, Adium  
could be considered a code review tool.  Not so long ago we used GNU  
Screen to connect a team of people to a single session to do code  
review through VIM or Emacs (its politically correct to mention them  
both, but it was VIM I was really using at the time).

Although, when I first thought of code review, I was thinking of some  
automatic code review like a LINT or analyzer.

It would help if we could define the requirements of the code review  
prior to recommending tools.

Brian Ray
bray at sent.com
http://kazavoo.com/blog



From bray at sent.com  Tue Jul 24 16:21:35 2007
From: bray at sent.com (Brian Ray)
Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2007 09:21:35 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] code review tools
In-Reply-To: <2EF3D977-9A60-40A0-B612-A9CD70E56EFB@sent.com>
References: <a68ced640707220608g7fec4e38xf6c1f6c5c76e3745@mail.gmail.com>
	<200707220826.37289.pfein@pobox.com>
	<200707231517.47502.pfein@pobox.com>
	<a68ced640707231323q568e32dbiad76b3841eafd175@mail.gmail.com>
	<a975a1ef0707232030l3fe1be32p38e5f2a362a890b0@mail.gmail.com>
	<2EF3D977-9A60-40A0-B612-A9CD70E56EFB@sent.com>
Message-ID: <AFDC959B-D11D-451A-866F-1AC6E69A848C@sent.com>


On Jul 24, 2007, at 9:14 AM, Brian Ray wrote:

> In the case of simultaneous parallel programming code review, Adium

I meant SubEthaEdit <http://www.codingmonkeys.de/subethaedit/>.


Brian Ray
bray at sent.com
http://kazavoo.com/blog



From pfein at pobox.com  Tue Jul 24 17:01:24 2007
From: pfein at pobox.com (Pete)
Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2007 10:01:24 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] Collaborative Editors, was Re: code review tools
In-Reply-To: <AFDC959B-D11D-451A-866F-1AC6E69A848C@sent.com>
References: <a68ced640707220608g7fec4e38xf6c1f6c5c76e3745@mail.gmail.com>
	<2EF3D977-9A60-40A0-B612-A9CD70E56EFB@sent.com>
	<AFDC959B-D11D-451A-866F-1AC6E69A848C@sent.com>
Message-ID: <200707241001.24519.pfein@pobox.com>

On Tuesday July 24 2007 9:21 am, Brian Ray wrote:
> On Jul 24, 2007, at 9:14 AM, Brian Ray wrote:
> > In the case of simultaneous parallel programming code review, Adium
>
> I meant SubEthaEdit <http://www.codingmonkeys.de/subethaedit/>.

Anyone know/use something comparable for Linux?  Last I looked, the options 
weren't very appealling...

IIRC, someone demoed such a beastie based on pygame (?) at a Pycon a few years 
ago, but I can't find it...

-- 
Peter Fein   ||   773-575-0694   ||   pfein at pobox.com
http://www.pobox.com/~pfein/   ||   PGP: 0xCCF6AE6B
irc: pfein at freenode.net   ||   jabber: peter.fein at gmail.com

From cwebber at imagescape.com  Tue Jul 24 17:14:27 2007
From: cwebber at imagescape.com (Christopher Allan Webber)
Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2007 10:14:27 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] Collaborative Editors, was Re: code review tools
In-Reply-To: <200707241001.24519.pfein@pobox.com> (Pete's message of "Tue,
	24 Jul 2007 10:01:24 -0500")
References: <a68ced640707220608g7fec4e38xf6c1f6c5c76e3745@mail.gmail.com>
	<2EF3D977-9A60-40A0-B612-A9CD70E56EFB@sent.com>
	<AFDC959B-D11D-451A-866F-1AC6E69A848C@sent.com>
	<200707241001.24519.pfein@pobox.com>
Message-ID: <6ywswpltpo.fsf@moretomore.rd.imagescape.com>

http://gobby.0x539.de/trac/

...more are listed here...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collaborative_real-time_editor#List_of_current_editors


Pete <pfein at pobox.com> writes:

> On Tuesday July 24 2007 9:21 am, Brian Ray wrote:
>> On Jul 24, 2007, at 9:14 AM, Brian Ray wrote:
>> > In the case of simultaneous parallel programming code review, Adium
>>
>> I meant SubEthaEdit <http://www.codingmonkeys.de/subethaedit/>.
>
> Anyone know/use something comparable for Linux?  Last I looked, the options 
> weren't very appealling...
>
> IIRC, someone demoed such a beastie based on pygame (?) at a Pycon a few years 
> ago, but I can't find it...
>
> -- 
> Peter Fein   ||   773-575-0694   ||   pfein at pobox.com
> http://www.pobox.com/~pfein/   ||   PGP: 0xCCF6AE6B
> irc: pfein at freenode.net   ||   jabber: peter.fein at gmail.com
> _______________________________________________
> Chicago mailing list
> Chicago at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago

From shekay at pobox.com  Tue Jul 24 18:14:30 2007
From: shekay at pobox.com (sheila miguez)
Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2007 11:14:30 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] code review tools
In-Reply-To: <2EF3D977-9A60-40A0-B612-A9CD70E56EFB@sent.com>
References: <a68ced640707220608g7fec4e38xf6c1f6c5c76e3745@mail.gmail.com>
	<200707220826.37289.pfein@pobox.com>
	<200707231517.47502.pfein@pobox.com>
	<a68ced640707231323q568e32dbiad76b3841eafd175@mail.gmail.com>
	<a975a1ef0707232030l3fe1be32p38e5f2a362a890b0@mail.gmail.com>
	<2EF3D977-9A60-40A0-B612-A9CD70E56EFB@sent.com>
Message-ID: <a68ced640707240914kb47a620j9e1dfa5447036407@mail.gmail.com>

On 7/24/07, Brian Ray <bray at sent.com> wrote:
>
> On Jul 23, 2007, at 10:30 PM, Tim Ottinger wrote:
>
> > How about pair programming? It's a very nice tool that makes
> > reviews almost transparent. :-)
> > Not even 1/2 kidding.
>
> What defines a code review tool.  In Mondrian's case, it could be
> done with parallel programming. But even though you are looking at
> DIFF from a pre-commit (facilitated from Perforce), the review is not
> simultaneous.
>
> In the case of simultaneous parallel programming code review, Adium
> could be considered a code review tool.  Not so long ago we used GNU
> Screen to connect a team of people to a single session to do code
> review through VIM or Emacs (its politically correct to mention them
> both, but it was VIM I was really using at the time).

Has anyone seen papers with a two-factor analysis on it? varying the
conditions of pair/non-pair and review/non-review.

(or have anecodotal accounts?)

I don't trust someone's serious snarky comment that pair-programming
supplants code reviews.

> Although, when I first thought of code review, I was thinking of some
> automatic code review like a LINT or analyzer.

I was not.

> It would help if we could define the requirements of the code review
> prior to recommending tools.

Don't you guys do code reviews?

I'm talking anywhere from incredibly formal Fagen types of things to
light-weight asynchronous things. Do I need to define this?


-- 
sheila

From bray at sent.com  Tue Jul 24 18:34:58 2007
From: bray at sent.com (Brian Ray)
Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2007 11:34:58 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] code review tools
In-Reply-To: <a68ced640707240914kb47a620j9e1dfa5447036407@mail.gmail.com>
References: <a68ced640707220608g7fec4e38xf6c1f6c5c76e3745@mail.gmail.com>
	<200707220826.37289.pfein@pobox.com>
	<200707231517.47502.pfein@pobox.com>
	<a68ced640707231323q568e32dbiad76b3841eafd175@mail.gmail.com>
	<a975a1ef0707232030l3fe1be32p38e5f2a362a890b0@mail.gmail.com>
	<2EF3D977-9A60-40A0-B612-A9CD70E56EFB@sent.com>
	<a68ced640707240914kb47a620j9e1dfa5447036407@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <69785995-A6F2-4F6A-8367-426F834B68B7@sent.com>


You might be talking a bit over my head-- admittedly, its easy to do  
sometimes.  I always thought Fagen type code reviews consist of  
anything but agile development. The tool of choice is a line printer,  
a conference room, and lots of coffee.


On Jul 24, 2007, at 11:14 AM, sheila miguez wrote:

>
>
> Has anyone seen papers with a two-factor analysis on it? varying the
> conditions of pair/non-pair and review/non-review.
>
> (or have anecodotal accounts?)


<http://lukewelling.com/wp-content/uploads/2006/03/pairon.jpg>
<http://www.nsftools.com/misc/SmallCube.jpg>
<http://farm1.static.flickr.com/12/94735395_9eb1ef92fd.jpg>

>
>> It would help if we could define the requirements of the code review
>> prior to recommending tools.
>
> Don't you guys do code reviews?
>

I actually encourage code review.  Although, deadlines always seem to  
get in the way. Our most detailed code reviews happen post- mortem.


Brian Ray
bray at sent.com
http://kazavoo.com/blog



From varmaa at gmail.com  Tue Jul 24 18:50:04 2007
From: varmaa at gmail.com (Atul Varma)
Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2007 11:50:04 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] code review tools
In-Reply-To: <a68ced640707240914kb47a620j9e1dfa5447036407@mail.gmail.com>
References: <a68ced640707220608g7fec4e38xf6c1f6c5c76e3745@mail.gmail.com>
	<200707220826.37289.pfein@pobox.com>
	<200707231517.47502.pfein@pobox.com>
	<a68ced640707231323q568e32dbiad76b3841eafd175@mail.gmail.com>
	<a975a1ef0707232030l3fe1be32p38e5f2a362a890b0@mail.gmail.com>
	<2EF3D977-9A60-40A0-B612-A9CD70E56EFB@sent.com>
	<a68ced640707240914kb47a620j9e1dfa5447036407@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <361b27370707240950h423fa8efva901b705dda51b3b@mail.gmail.com>

On 7/24/07, sheila miguez <shekay at pobox.com> wrote:
> Don't you guys do code reviews?
>
> I'm talking anywhere from incredibly formal Fagen types of things to
> light-weight asynchronous things. Do I need to define this?

We use Trac for bug tracking, and we use its Wiki to perform manual
code reviews.  A developer creates a Wiki page with a list of
revisions that need to be reviewed, along with any other notes.  When
someone reviews the code, they add comments to the wiki page under a
section with their name on it, and the original developer can respond
to them.  A QA person basically handles the workflow manually,
ensuring that code is reviewed, poking people when they need to review
code or respond to comments, and so forth; it'd be nice to automate
this part with a tool like Review Board.

- Atul

From andrew at humanized.com  Tue Jul 24 19:04:41 2007
From: andrew at humanized.com (Andrew Wilson)
Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2007 12:04:41 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] Collaborative Editors, was Re: code review tools
In-Reply-To: <6ywswpltpo.fsf@moretomore.rd.imagescape.com>
References: <a68ced640707220608g7fec4e38xf6c1f6c5c76e3745@mail.gmail.com>
	<2EF3D977-9A60-40A0-B612-A9CD70E56EFB@sent.com>
	<AFDC959B-D11D-451A-866F-1AC6E69A848C@sent.com>
	<200707241001.24519.pfein@pobox.com>
	<6ywswpltpo.fsf@moretomore.rd.imagescape.com>
Message-ID: <c1b1d8150707241004p2feb9a1cl53a6355b16e0e6f1@mail.gmail.com>

In case anyone cares to see an existing discussion of the various properties
of collaborative editors, my friend Aza wrote a blog post on MoonEdit a
while back. The resulting comment thread incorporated several of the (then)
existing collaborative editors. Especially our feeling regarding MoonEdit as
an incredibly awesome collaboration tool, because it is so amazingly simple.


http://www.humanized.com/weblog/2006/04/19/moonedit_to_the_rescue/

-- Andrew

On 7/24/07, Christopher Allan Webber <cwebber at imagescape.com> wrote:
>
> http://gobby.0x539.de/trac/
>
> ...more are listed here...
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collaborative_real-time_editor#List_of_current_editors
>
>
> Pete <pfein at pobox.com> writes:
>
> > On Tuesday July 24 2007 9:21 am, Brian Ray wrote:
> >> On Jul 24, 2007, at 9:14 AM, Brian Ray wrote:
> >> > In the case of simultaneous parallel programming code review, Adium
> >>
> >> I meant SubEthaEdit <http://www.codingmonkeys.de/subethaedit/>.
> >
> > Anyone know/use something comparable for Linux?  Last I looked, the
> options
> > weren't very appealling...
> >
> > IIRC, someone demoed such a beastie based on pygame (?) at a Pycon a few
> years
> > ago, but I can't find it...
> >
> > --
> > Peter Fein   ||   773-575-0694   ||   pfein at pobox.com
> > http://www.pobox.com/~pfein/   ||   PGP: 0xCCF6AE6B
> > irc: pfein at freenode.net   ||   jabber: peter.fein at gmail.com
> > _______________________________________________
> > Chicago mailing list
> > Chicago at python.org
> > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
> _______________________________________________
> Chicago mailing list
> Chicago at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>
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From pfein at pobox.com  Tue Jul 24 19:57:35 2007
From: pfein at pobox.com (Pete)
Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2007 12:57:35 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] code review tools
In-Reply-To: <2EF3D977-9A60-40A0-B612-A9CD70E56EFB@sent.com>
References: <a68ced640707220608g7fec4e38xf6c1f6c5c76e3745@mail.gmail.com>
	<a975a1ef0707232030l3fe1be32p38e5f2a362a890b0@mail.gmail.com>
	<2EF3D977-9A60-40A0-B612-A9CD70E56EFB@sent.com>
Message-ID: <200707241257.35857.pfein@pobox.com>

On Tuesday July 24 2007 9:14 am, Brian Ray wrote:
> Although, when I first thought of code review, I was thinking of some
> automatic code review like a LINT or analyzer.

On that front, I'm a huge fan of pylint: http://www.logilab.org/857

There's a plugin for my editor of choice, which helps - the output can be 
voluminous, though it's fairly easy to turn tests off.

-- 
Peter Fein   ||   773-575-0694   ||   pfein at pobox.com
http://www.pobox.com/~pfein/   ||   PGP: 0xCCF6AE6B
irc: pfein at freenode.net   ||   jabber: peter.fein at gmail.com

From loppear at gmail.com  Tue Jul 24 23:21:34 2007
From: loppear at gmail.com (Luke Opperman)
Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2007 16:21:34 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] Collaborative Editors, was Re: code review tools
In-Reply-To: <1ff0fe40707241353v73f61f5dmfb1bb250851067de@mail.gmail.com>
References: <a68ced640707220608g7fec4e38xf6c1f6c5c76e3745@mail.gmail.com>
	<2EF3D977-9A60-40A0-B612-A9CD70E56EFB@sent.com>
	<AFDC959B-D11D-451A-866F-1AC6E69A848C@sent.com>
	<200707241001.24519.pfein@pobox.com>
	<6ywswpltpo.fsf@moretomore.rd.imagescape.com>
	<c1b1d8150707241004p2feb9a1cl53a6355b16e0e6f1@mail.gmail.com>
	<1ff0fe40707241353v73f61f5dmfb1bb250851067de@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1ff0fe40707241421k699e1198tea37548e124ed1df@mail.gmail.com>

(Aside to Andrew/Atul: a year+ after that posting, do you still make a lot
of use of collaborative editing for recording group talk and crystallizing
it into more cohesive documents?)

[Typos cleaned up, obvious asides removed.]

12:35 PM  me: this post that Andrew just pointed out on the chipy list is a
good summary/direction from our "how do we *talk* better" conversations back
at textura.
http://www.humanized.com/weblog/2006/04/19/moonedit_to_the_rescue/
------------------------------
17 minutes12:53 PM  Chad:I'd have to try it. I like the idea of multiple
inputs into a computer. But shared editing seems, i don't know. I wonder if
the key to moonedit is the search and editing features or its collaborative
nature or if the concurrent editing is really the key. But good stuff.
------------------------------
10 minutes1:05 PM  me: i have a notion of unix "talk" with the separating
line removed... our chats here often take on that write-respond-rewrite
flow, but without the ability to actually go back and edit - whereas talk
had the opposite problem of showing revision clearly but not showing
history. see also, the use of ^H written out to represent explicit
rethought.
1:09 PM perhaps novel to collabedit though: having a natural third role
(filled by anyone not actively conversing) of editing the overall movement
of the conversation by choosing and arranging highlights as they occur or
are recognized.
------------------------------
7 minutes1:16 PM  me: also clearly addresses the space i'm curious to fill
in a lot of our maillist / groups threaded discussions, where it's easy to
lose sight of the larger picture as we snip bits to reply to and follow
sub-thoughts. real-time wiki collaboration with the persistence / time-delay
that a smooth transition between chat and email provides.

 ------------------------------
39 minutes 1:58 PM Chad: third role seems interesting. we'll call it copy
editor as that is the closest real world equivalent I think.
------------------------------
12 minutes2:11 PM  Chad: I agree about the need to transition things easier.
chat -> email -> wiki or just publishing chats or email threads like you can
a google notebook. A research file or something like when writing a paper or
book. You have notes. And interviews. And biblo info.
  Maybe people just need to hire more editors. =)
------------------------------
21 minutes 2:32 PM  me: publishing chats/emails brings up the unavoidable
question of how we'll deal with permission - not all that naturally handled
today with single-author, only implicit broad strokes for multi-author.
2:33 PM say I want to publish this chat session as a response to the Chipy
post that started it.
2:35 PM or more likely, want to lightly edit it first. what conventions or
encoding of intent improves on explicit requests-per-document, which might
work with a two person chat but presumably scales miserably.
2:36 PM Creative Commons gives a good start at the language for talking
about redistribution and derivative works etc
2:40 PM so the top-level shift is in realizing that all the various pieces
that make up my daily content-stream should be versioned, should be
publishable, should be permissionable. (and that part of my content-stream
is the recursively-meta-information about what I'm reading, who I'm talking
to, when I published something...)
2:43 PM Chad :I think the permissions might be deducible(sp) based on
context. Everything from the Chipy article is ok. But I'd like to block the
segue into personal or side notes as part of conversation.
2:45 PM But then again, maybe it is just a multi-layered chat. topic in
black, tangent in green. I personally like to leave the subject vague and
ambiguous but that's just for fun. Personal comments in red.
2:47 PM me : right, that's the slight editing I'm talking about. and yeah,
it could probably be deducible with minimal input, coding (as you say, by
color), or perhaps if there were a side channel to create stronger
replying-to-linkages (contextual theme-tagging?)
2:48 PM cf an extension of irc's "name:" prefixing to identify sub-threads.
2:49 PM Chad : yeah, I like the irc level with software support.
2:51 PM  me: alternatively, a lot of this problem might go away if the
context is more explicit in collaborative editing, in that we'd be having
the "brainstorm about collaborative editing" thread in a document that
started there, and still have our personal chat clearly personal. another
parallel, the side-channel irc chats alongside a more formal presentation or
talk.
2:52 PM ie, perhaps this is all a side-effect of the flaws of just-email or
just-chat.
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From andrew at humanized.com  Wed Jul 25 01:48:33 2007
From: andrew at humanized.com (Andrew Wilson)
Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2007 18:48:33 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] Collaborative Editors, was Re: code review tools
In-Reply-To: <1ff0fe40707241421k699e1198tea37548e124ed1df@mail.gmail.com>
References: <a68ced640707220608g7fec4e38xf6c1f6c5c76e3745@mail.gmail.com>
	<2EF3D977-9A60-40A0-B612-A9CD70E56EFB@sent.com>
	<AFDC959B-D11D-451A-866F-1AC6E69A848C@sent.com>
	<200707241001.24519.pfein@pobox.com>
	<6ywswpltpo.fsf@moretomore.rd.imagescape.com>
	<c1b1d8150707241004p2feb9a1cl53a6355b16e0e6f1@mail.gmail.com>
	<1ff0fe40707241353v73f61f5dmfb1bb250851067de@mail.gmail.com>
	<1ff0fe40707241421k699e1198tea37548e124ed1df@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <c1b1d8150707241648o4c5f4ffcgeac9439e75ff3ba4@mail.gmail.com>

Luke:

You ask a very interesting question. So interesting that I'm working up a
"MoonEdit: Redux" article for our blog. I'll post a link here when I'm done.

-- Andrew


On 7/24/07, Luke Opperman <loppear at gmail.com > wrote:
>
> (Aside to Andrew/Atul: a year+ after that posting, do you still make a lot
> of use of collaborative editing for recording group talk and crystallizing
> it into more cohesive documents?)
>
> [Typos cleaned up, obvious asides removed.]
>
> 12:35 PM  me: this post that Andrew just pointed out on the chipy list is
> a good summary/direction from our "how do we *talk* better" conversations
> back at textura.
> http://www.humanized.com/weblog/2006/04/19/moonedit_to_the_rescue/
> ------------------------------
> 17 minutes12:53 PM  Chad:I'd have to try it. I like the idea of multiple
> inputs into a computer. But shared editing seems, i don't know. I wonder if
> the key to moonedit is the search and editing features or its collaborative
> nature or if the concurrent editing is really the key. But good stuff.
> ------------------------------
> 10 minutes1:05 PM  me: i have a notion of unix "talk" with the separating
> line removed... our chats here often take on that write-respond-rewrite
> flow, but without the ability to actually go back and edit - whereas talk
> had the opposite problem of showing revision clearly but not showing
> history. see also, the use of ^H written out to represent explicit
> rethought.
> 1:09 PM perhaps novel to collabedit though: having a natural third role
> (filled by anyone not actively conversing) of editing the overall movement
> of the conversation by choosing and arranging highlights as they occur or
> are recognized.
> ------------------------------
> 7 minutes1:16 PM  me: also clearly addresses the space i'm curious to fill
> in a lot of our maillist / groups threaded discussions, where it's easy to
> lose sight of the larger picture as we snip bits to reply to and follow
> sub-thoughts. real-time wiki collaboration with the persistence / time-delay
> that a smooth transition between chat and email provides.
>
>  ------------------------------
> 39 minutes 1:58 PM Chad: third role seems interesting. we'll call it copy
> editor as that is the closest real world equivalent I think.
> ------------------------------
> 12 minutes2:11 PM  Chad: I agree about the need to transition things
> easier. chat -> email -> wiki or just publishing chats or email threads like
> you can a google notebook. A research file or something like when writing a
> paper or book. You have notes. And interviews. And biblo info.
>   Maybe people just need to hire more editors. =)
> ------------------------------
> 21 minutes 2:32 PM  me: publishing chats/emails brings up the unavoidable
> question of how we'll deal with permission - not all that naturally handled
> today with single-author, only implicit broad strokes for multi-author.
> 2:33 PM say I want to publish this chat session as a response to the Chipy
> post that started it.
> 2:35 PM or more likely, want to lightly edit it first. what conventions or
> encoding of intent improves on explicit requests-per-document, which might
> work with a two person chat but presumably scales miserably.
> 2:36 PM Creative Commons gives a good start at the language for talking
> about redistribution and derivative works etc
> 2:40 PM so the top-level shift is in realizing that all the various pieces
> that make up my daily content-stream should be versioned, should be
> publishable, should be permissionable. (and that part of my content-stream
> is the recursively-meta-information about what I'm reading, who I'm talking
> to, when I published something...)
> 2:43 PM Chad :I think the permissions might be deducible(sp) based on
> context. Everything from the Chipy article is ok. But I'd like to block the
> segue into personal or side notes as part of conversation.
> 2:45 PM But then again, maybe it is just a multi-layered chat. topic in
> black, tangent in green. I personally like to leave the subject vague and
> ambiguous but that's just for fun. Personal comments in red.
> 2:47 PM me : right, that's the slight editing I'm talking about. and yeah,
> it could probably be deducible with minimal input, coding (as you say, by
> color), or perhaps if there were a side channel to create stronger
> replying-to-linkages (contextual theme-tagging?)
> 2:48 PM cf an extension of irc's "name:" prefixing to identify
> sub-threads.
> 2:49 PM Chad : yeah, I like the irc level with software support.
> 2:51 PM  me: alternatively, a lot of this problem might go away if the
> context is more explicit in collaborative editing, in that we'd be having
> the "brainstorm about collaborative editing" thread in a document that
> started there, and still have our personal chat clearly personal. another
> parallel, the side-channel irc chats alongside a more formal presentation or
> talk.
> 2:52 PM ie, perhaps this is all a side-effect of the flaws of just-email
> or just-chat.
>
> _______________________________________________
> Chicago mailing list
> Chicago at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>
>
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From tottinge at gmail.com  Wed Jul 25 03:50:35 2007
From: tottinge at gmail.com (Tim Ottinger)
Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2007 20:50:35 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] Collaborative Editors, was Re: code review tools
In-Reply-To: <6ywswpltpo.fsf@moretomore.rd.imagescape.com>
References: <a68ced640707220608g7fec4e38xf6c1f6c5c76e3745@mail.gmail.com>
	<2EF3D977-9A60-40A0-B612-A9CD70E56EFB@sent.com>
	<AFDC959B-D11D-451A-866F-1AC6E69A848C@sent.com>
	<200707241001.24519.pfein@pobox.com>
	<6ywswpltpo.fsf@moretomore.rd.imagescape.com>
Message-ID: <a975a1ef0707241850o45017b0ek66b498525356a63f@mail.gmail.com>

I forgot about gobby/sobby.  I've used gobby with three other developers as
we went over five or six python files and a shell script or two.  It was an
amazing experience.  The chat and the colorized editing went very very
well.  We were scattered all over the country, connected to a sobby server
in Arizona.  It was worth repeating.


On 7/24/07, Christopher Allan Webber <cwebber at imagescape.com> wrote:
>
> http://gobby.0x539.de/trac/
>
> ...more are listed here...
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collaborative_real-time_editor#List_of_current_editors
>
>
> Pete <pfein at pobox.com> writes:
>
> > On Tuesday July 24 2007 9:21 am, Brian Ray wrote:
> >> On Jul 24, 2007, at 9:14 AM, Brian Ray wrote:
> >> > In the case of simultaneous parallel programming code review, Adium
> >>
> >> I meant SubEthaEdit <http://www.codingmonkeys.de/subethaedit/>.
> >
> > Anyone know/use something comparable for Linux?  Last I looked, the
> options
> > weren't very appealling...
> >
> > IIRC, someone demoed such a beastie based on pygame (?) at a Pycon a few
> years
> > ago, but I can't find it...
> >
> > --
> > Peter Fein   ||   773-575-0694   ||   pfein at pobox.com
> > http://www.pobox.com/~pfein/   ||   PGP: 0xCCF6AE6B
> > irc: pfein at freenode.net   ||   jabber: peter.fein at gmail.com
> > _______________________________________________
> > Chicago mailing list
> > Chicago at python.org
> > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
> _______________________________________________
> Chicago mailing list
> Chicago at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>
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From bray at sent.com  Wed Jul 25 16:12:14 2007
From: bray at sent.com (Brian Ray)
Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2007 09:12:14 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] August Snakes on Apples Meeting
Message-ID: <E7192DEE-6E00-4845-8877-CF5036447DDB@sent.com>

Planning is going well for the August meeting <http://chipy.org/ 
SnakesOnApples>. As I mentioned at our last meeting, we have an offer  
for a venue at UIC. I would like to let them know next week in case  
that is what we choose.  Google will be closer to where C4 is being  
held but I am not sure if they are able to host. Fitz, are you able  
to host?  Apple store is out of the question because it did not fit  
our needs. Alders Planetarium is booked.

We also have a sponsor for food. Thanks Roy Talman & Associates.   
Doug Pratt will be attending.

Regarding presentations, we do not have anyone lined up yet. There  
has been some grumbling. I tried to get some specific mac people from  
C4 to present but most are not flying in until the next day. If you  
know someone or you would like to present, here are some possible  
topics:

   How Python ships on the Mac
   Mac specific modules part of Python Standard Library
   PyObj <http://pyobjc.sourceforge.net/>
   Apple Events
   py2app
   Mac Software using Python: ie BitTorrent, Blender, FontLab
   macholib - analyze the Mach-O binary format
   wxPython

If we do not have a large enough interest in this topic, we can  
switch gears entirely. For example, we could change the topic to  
Python enabled Code Review Tools.  Although, I like the idea of  
having presentations on specific platforms.

Brian Ray
bray at sent.com
http://kazavoo.com/blog



From doug.harvey at gmail.com  Mon Jul 30 21:32:13 2007
From: doug.harvey at gmail.com (Doug Harvey)
Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2007 14:32:13 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] python tee shirts, etc
Message-ID: <45f5fc930707301232r1141dd13xac124f30920713fa@mail.gmail.com>

A guy that works with me just recently started using Python and really
likes it; most other developers around here still only use bash+awk,
just to give you an idea.

Anyway, I thought it would be fun to get him some sort of python tee
shirt or pin, etc.  I did a bit of google searching and really
couldn't find any site that sells "python powered" shirts or other
paraphernalia.

Anyone know of such a site?

doug

From bray at sent.com  Mon Jul 30 22:04:37 2007
From: bray at sent.com (Brian Ray)
Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2007 15:04:37 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] python tee shirts, etc
In-Reply-To: <45f5fc930707301232r1141dd13xac124f30920713fa@mail.gmail.com>
References: <45f5fc930707301232r1141dd13xac124f30920713fa@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <6EDA660C-6234-4D8A-966B-B03DB8E1EAB4@sent.com>


On Jul 30, 2007, at 2:32 PM, Doug Harvey wrote:

>
> Anyone know of such a site?

You might find some stuff on cafe press:

  <http://www.cafepress.com>

Brian Ray
bray at sent.com
http://kazavoo.com/blog



From skip at pobox.com  Mon Jul 30 22:07:40 2007
From: skip at pobox.com (skip at pobox.com)
Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2007 15:07:40 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] python tee shirts, etc
In-Reply-To: <45f5fc930707301232r1141dd13xac124f30920713fa@mail.gmail.com>
References: <45f5fc930707301232r1141dd13xac124f30920713fa@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <18094.17676.957495.712374@montanaro.dyndns.org>


    Doug> Anyway, I thought it would be fun to get him some sort of python
    Doug> tee shirt or pin, etc.  I did a bit of google searching and really
    Doug> couldn't find any site that sells "python powered" shirts or other
    Doug> paraphernalia.

Search at www.cafeexpress.com for "python programming":

    http://www.cafepress.com/buy/python%20programming

Skip

From varmaa at gmail.com  Mon Jul 30 22:30:07 2007
From: varmaa at gmail.com (Atul Varma)
Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2007 15:30:07 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] python tee shirts, etc
In-Reply-To: <45f5fc930707301232r1141dd13xac124f30920713fa@mail.gmail.com>
References: <45f5fc930707301232r1141dd13xac124f30920713fa@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <361b27370707301330p1ce18aa5vec343c127c28d891@mail.gmail.com>

This is Chipy-specific, so it may not be exactly what you're looking
for, but here goes:

Back in February, Brantley Harris drew a really cool ChiPy image,
which consisted of a chipmunk with a Python on a leash, and I
embellished it with a logo and put it on a long-sleeve T-Shirt:

http://www.cafepress.com/cp/customize/product.aspx?clear=true&number=109266329

Some more options that I came up with at the time can be found here:

http://mail.python.org/pipermail/chicago/2007-February/001704.html

I really need to order myself up one of those.  I would ask if anyone
else wants a copy, but since it's on cafepress, I guess you can all
just order it from there if you want one.

- Atul

On 7/30/07, Doug Harvey <doug.harvey at gmail.com> wrote:
> A guy that works with me just recently started using Python and really
> likes it; most other developers around here still only use bash+awk,
> just to give you an idea.
>
> Anyway, I thought it would be fun to get him some sort of python tee
> shirt or pin, etc.  I did a bit of google searching and really
> couldn't find any site that sells "python powered" shirts or other
> paraphernalia.
>
> Anyone know of such a site?
>
> doug
> _______________________________________________
> Chicago mailing list
> Chicago at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>

From harper at nata2.org  Mon Jul 30 22:38:23 2007
From: harper at nata2.org (Harper Reed)
Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2007 15:38:23 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] python tee shirts, etc
In-Reply-To: <361b27370707301330p1ce18aa5vec343c127c28d891@mail.gmail.com>
References: <45f5fc930707301232r1141dd13xac124f30920713fa@mail.gmail.com>
	<361b27370707301330p1ce18aa5vec343c127c28d891@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <b92ff66c0707301338q18ab2365j2d4ea507b1ce7cc4@mail.gmail.com>

Since i work for a t-shirt company i thought maybe it would be a good time
to jump in:

Shirts are relatively easy. Cafepress blows. Well - they are awesome for
quick one offs and what not. But if you want a good quality print or
t-shirt, you will have to have it done at a professional screen printing
place. It shouldn't be too hard to gauge how many people are interested and
then make an order.

Chicago has a bundle of great screen printers.

At threadless we use a place called Shirts our business (
http://www.sobltd.com/). They are really solid. The only catch is that you
have to have a batch of 144 or more before they will print anything. We also
use sharprint (http://www.sharprint.com/), although i think they also have a
minimum order. If 144 is too many (it probably is) then propaganda(
http://www.propagandatshirts.com/) is pretty decent.

Any of those places could help move art from computer to shirt and help
scale and color it appropriately.

Hope this is helpful.

-harper

On 7/30/07, Atul Varma <varmaa at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> This is Chipy-specific, so it may not be exactly what you're looking
> for, but here goes:
>
> Back in February, Brantley Harris drew a really cool ChiPy image,
> which consisted of a chipmunk with a Python on a leash, and I
> embellished it with a logo and put it on a long-sleeve T-Shirt:
>
>
> http://www.cafepress.com/cp/customize/product.aspx?clear=true&number=109266329
>
> Some more options that I came up with at the time can be found here:
>
> http://mail.python.org/pipermail/chicago/2007-February/001704.html
>
> I really need to order myself up one of those.  I would ask if anyone
> else wants a copy, but since it's on cafepress, I guess you can all
> just order it from there if you want one.
>
> - Atul
>
> On 7/30/07, Doug Harvey <doug.harvey at gmail.com> wrote:
> > A guy that works with me just recently started using Python and really
> > likes it; most other developers around here still only use bash+awk,
> > just to give you an idea.
> >
> > Anyway, I thought it would be fun to get him some sort of python tee
> > shirt or pin, etc.  I did a bit of google searching and really
> > couldn't find any site that sells "python powered" shirts or other
> > paraphernalia.
> >
> > Anyone know of such a site?
> >
> > doug
> > _______________________________________________
> > Chicago mailing list
> > Chicago at python.org
> > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
> >
> _______________________________________________
> Chicago mailing list
> Chicago at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>



-- 
Harper Reed
blog: nata2.org
home: harperreed.org
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From deadwisdom at gmail.com  Mon Jul 30 22:45:39 2007
From: deadwisdom at gmail.com (Brantley Harris)
Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2007 15:45:39 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] python tee shirts, etc
In-Reply-To: <b92ff66c0707301338q18ab2365j2d4ea507b1ce7cc4@mail.gmail.com>
References: <45f5fc930707301232r1141dd13xac124f30920713fa@mail.gmail.com>
	<361b27370707301330p1ce18aa5vec343c127c28d891@mail.gmail.com>
	<b92ff66c0707301338q18ab2365j2d4ea507b1ce7cc4@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <694c06d60707301345s4c7dedf1h686020bc4064733b@mail.gmail.com>

Nice, I heart threadless, very good stuff.  Although I'm not sure that
we really need anywhere near that many ChiPy t-shirts.  Maybe for
PyCon, though :)

On 7/30/07, Harper Reed <harper at nata2.org> wrote:
> Since i work for a t-shirt company i thought maybe it would be a good time
> to jump in:
>
> Shirts are relatively easy. Cafepress blows. Well - they are awesome for
> quick one offs and what not. But if you want a good quality print or
> t-shirt, you will have to have it done at a professional screen printing
> place. It shouldn't be too hard to gauge how many people are interested and
> then make an order.
>
> Chicago has a bundle of great screen printers.
>
> At threadless we use a place called Shirts our business
> (http://www.sobltd.com/). They are really solid. The only catch is that you
> have to have a batch of 144 or more before they will print anything. We also
> use sharprint ( http://www.sharprint.com/), although i think they also have
> a minimum order. If 144 is too many (it probably is) then
> propaganda(http://www.propagandatshirts.com/ ) is pretty
> decent.
>
> Any of those places could help move art from computer to shirt and help
> scale and color it appropriately.
>
> Hope this is helpful.
>
> -harper
>
>
>  On 7/30/07, Atul Varma <varmaa at gmail.com> wrote:
> > This is Chipy-specific, so it may not be exactly what you're looking
> > for, but here goes:
> >
> > Back in February, Brantley Harris drew a really cool ChiPy image,
> > which consisted of a chipmunk with a Python on a leash, and I
> > embellished it with a logo and put it on a long-sleeve T-Shirt:
> >
> >
> http://www.cafepress.com/cp/customize/product.aspx?clear=true&number=109266329
> >
> > Some more options that I came up with at the time can be found here:
> >
> >
> http://mail.python.org/pipermail/chicago/2007-February/001704.html
> >
> > I really need to order myself up one of those.  I would ask if anyone
> > else wants a copy, but since it's on cafepress, I guess you can all
> > just order it from there if you want one.
> >
> > - Atul
> >
> > On 7/30/07, Doug Harvey <doug.harvey at gmail.com> wrote:
> > > A guy that works with me just recently started using Python and really
> > > likes it; most other developers around here still only use bash+awk,
> > > just to give you an idea.
> > >
> > > Anyway, I thought it would be fun to get him some sort of python tee
> > > shirt or pin, etc.  I did a bit of google searching and really
> > > couldn't find any site that sells "python powered" shirts or other
> > > paraphernalia.
> > >
> > > Anyone know of such a site?
> > >
> > > doug
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Chicago mailing list
> > > Chicago at python.org
> > > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
> > >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Chicago mailing list
> > Chicago at python.org
> > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
> >
>
>
>
> --
> Harper Reed
> blog: nata2.org
> home: harperreed.org
> _______________________________________________
> Chicago mailing list
> Chicago at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>
>

From chris.mcavoy at gmail.com  Mon Jul 30 22:48:36 2007
From: chris.mcavoy at gmail.com (Chris McAvoy)
Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2007 15:48:36 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] python tee shirts, etc
In-Reply-To: <b92ff66c0707301338q18ab2365j2d4ea507b1ce7cc4@mail.gmail.com>
References: <45f5fc930707301232r1141dd13xac124f30920713fa@mail.gmail.com>
	<361b27370707301330p1ce18aa5vec343c127c28d891@mail.gmail.com>
	<b92ff66c0707301338q18ab2365j2d4ea507b1ce7cc4@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <3096c19d0707301348w397379f6w690c1ed86650021b@mail.gmail.com>

Why 144?  That's such a weird number.

I love it when a company isn't afraid to set limits at strange numbers.

Chris

On 7/30/07, Harper Reed <harper at nata2.org> wrote:
> Since i work for a t-shirt company i thought maybe it would be a good time
> to jump in:
>
> Shirts are relatively easy. Cafepress blows. Well - they are awesome for
> quick one offs and what not. But if you want a good quality print or
> t-shirt, you will have to have it done at a professional screen printing
> place. It shouldn't be too hard to gauge how many people are interested and
> then make an order.
>
> Chicago has a bundle of great screen printers.
>
> At threadless we use a place called Shirts our business
> (http://www.sobltd.com/). They are really solid. The only catch is that you
> have to have a batch of 144 or more before they will print anything. We also
> use sharprint ( http://www.sharprint.com/), although i think they also have
> a minimum order. If 144 is too many (it probably is) then
> propaganda(http://www.propagandatshirts.com/ ) is pretty
> decent.
>
> Any of those places could help move art from computer to shirt and help
> scale and color it appropriately.
>
> Hope this is helpful.
>
> -harper
>
>
>  On 7/30/07, Atul Varma <varmaa at gmail.com> wrote:
> > This is Chipy-specific, so it may not be exactly what you're looking
> > for, but here goes:
> >
> > Back in February, Brantley Harris drew a really cool ChiPy image,
> > which consisted of a chipmunk with a Python on a leash, and I
> > embellished it with a logo and put it on a long-sleeve T-Shirt:
> >
> >
> http://www.cafepress.com/cp/customize/product.aspx?clear=true&number=109266329
> >
> > Some more options that I came up with at the time can be found here:
> >
> >
> http://mail.python.org/pipermail/chicago/2007-February/001704.html
> >
> > I really need to order myself up one of those.  I would ask if anyone
> > else wants a copy, but since it's on cafepress, I guess you can all
> > just order it from there if you want one.
> >
> > - Atul
> >
> > On 7/30/07, Doug Harvey <doug.harvey at gmail.com> wrote:
> > > A guy that works with me just recently started using Python and really
> > > likes it; most other developers around here still only use bash+awk,
> > > just to give you an idea.
> > >
> > > Anyway, I thought it would be fun to get him some sort of python tee
> > > shirt or pin, etc.  I did a bit of google searching and really
> > > couldn't find any site that sells "python powered" shirts or other
> > > paraphernalia.
> > >
> > > Anyone know of such a site?
> > >
> > > doug
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Chicago mailing list
> > > Chicago at python.org
> > > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
> > >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Chicago mailing list
> > Chicago at python.org
> > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
> >
>
>
>
> --
> Harper Reed
> blog: nata2.org
> home: harperreed.org
> _______________________________________________
> Chicago mailing list
> Chicago at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>
>

From varmaa at gmail.com  Mon Jul 30 23:14:21 2007
From: varmaa at gmail.com (Atul Varma)
Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2007 16:14:21 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] python tee shirts, etc
In-Reply-To: <3096c19d0707301348w397379f6w690c1ed86650021b@mail.gmail.com>
References: <45f5fc930707301232r1141dd13xac124f30920713fa@mail.gmail.com>
	<361b27370707301330p1ce18aa5vec343c127c28d891@mail.gmail.com>
	<b92ff66c0707301338q18ab2365j2d4ea507b1ce7cc4@mail.gmail.com>
	<3096c19d0707301348w397379f6w690c1ed86650021b@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <361b27370707301414u68a6248fl4d9bd29972782084@mail.gmail.com>

On 7/30/07, Chris McAvoy <chris.mcavoy at gmail.com> wrote:
> Why 144?  That's such a weird number.

I think it's because that's what a gross is:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gross_%28unit%29

Not that it really justifies anything, I guess, other than in an
"everyone else does it so I guess we should too" sort of way.

- Atul

From ken at stox.org  Mon Jul 30 23:05:51 2007
From: ken at stox.org (Kenneth P. Stox)
Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2007 16:05:51 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] python tee shirts, etc
In-Reply-To: <3096c19d0707301348w397379f6w690c1ed86650021b@mail.gmail.com>
References: <45f5fc930707301232r1141dd13xac124f30920713fa@mail.gmail.com>
	<361b27370707301330p1ce18aa5vec343c127c28d891@mail.gmail.com>
	<b92ff66c0707301338q18ab2365j2d4ea507b1ce7cc4@mail.gmail.com>
	<3096c19d0707301348w397379f6w690c1ed86650021b@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1185829551.3735.135.camel@stox.dyndns.org>

On Mon, 2007-07-30 at 15:48 -0500, Chris McAvoy wrote:
> Why 144?  That's such a weird number.
> 
> I love it when a company isn't afraid to set limits at strange numbers.

Not odd at all, 12*12, also known as a gross. A very common quantity for
wholesale.


From dbt at meat.net  Mon Jul 30 23:15:40 2007
From: dbt at meat.net (David Terrell)
Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2007 16:15:40 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] python tee shirts, etc
In-Reply-To: <3096c19d0707301348w397379f6w690c1ed86650021b@mail.gmail.com>
References: <45f5fc930707301232r1141dd13xac124f30920713fa@mail.gmail.com>
	<361b27370707301330p1ce18aa5vec343c127c28d891@mail.gmail.com>
	<b92ff66c0707301338q18ab2365j2d4ea507b1ce7cc4@mail.gmail.com>
	<3096c19d0707301348w397379f6w690c1ed86650021b@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20070730211540.GL11901@sphinx.chicagopeoplez.org>

On Mon, Jul 30, 2007 at 03:48:36PM -0500, Chris McAvoy wrote:
> Why 144?  That's such a weird number.
> 
> I love it when a company isn't afraid to set limits at strange numbers.

12 ** 2, also known as "a gross."

-- 
David Terrell
dbt at meat.net
((meatspace)) http://meat.net/

From chris.mcavoy at gmail.com  Tue Jul 31 03:14:06 2007
From: chris.mcavoy at gmail.com (Chris McAvoy)
Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2007 20:14:06 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] python tee shirts, etc
In-Reply-To: <20070730211540.GL11901@sphinx.chicagopeoplez.org>
References: <45f5fc930707301232r1141dd13xac124f30920713fa@mail.gmail.com>
	<361b27370707301330p1ce18aa5vec343c127c28d891@mail.gmail.com>
	<b92ff66c0707301338q18ab2365j2d4ea507b1ce7cc4@mail.gmail.com>
	<3096c19d0707301348w397379f6w690c1ed86650021b@mail.gmail.com>
	<20070730211540.GL11901@sphinx.chicagopeoplez.org>
Message-ID: <3096c19d0707301814g279f47bcp94a556ce2ecacce5@mail.gmail.com>

Can someone _please_ explain why 144?

Chris

On 7/30/07, David Terrell <dbt at meat.net> wrote:
> On Mon, Jul 30, 2007 at 03:48:36PM -0500, Chris McAvoy wrote:
> > Why 144?  That's such a weird number.
> >
> > I love it when a company isn't afraid to set limits at strange numbers.
>
> 12 ** 2, also known as "a gross."
>
> --
> David Terrell
> dbt at meat.net
> ((meatspace)) http://meat.net/
> _______________________________________________
> Chicago mailing list
> Chicago at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>

From ianb at colorstudy.com  Tue Jul 31 04:07:53 2007
From: ianb at colorstudy.com (Ian Bicking)
Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2007 21:07:53 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] python tee shirts, etc
In-Reply-To: <3096c19d0707301814g279f47bcp94a556ce2ecacce5@mail.gmail.com>
References: <45f5fc930707301232r1141dd13xac124f30920713fa@mail.gmail.com>	<361b27370707301330p1ce18aa5vec343c127c28d891@mail.gmail.com>	<b92ff66c0707301338q18ab2365j2d4ea507b1ce7cc4@mail.gmail.com>	<3096c19d0707301348w397379f6w690c1ed86650021b@mail.gmail.com>	<20070730211540.GL11901@sphinx.chicagopeoplez.org>
	<3096c19d0707301814g279f47bcp94a556ce2ecacce5@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <46AE9979.5080605@colorstudy.com>

Chris McAvoy wrote:
> Can someone _please_ explain why 144?

It's because 1 + 4 + 4 = 9, and 9 = 3 * 3, and 3 is a magical number.

It isn't widely discussed, but most screen printers are part of the 
Illuminati, so this stuff is pretty important to them.

I'm sure no one else wanted to give a reasonable answer because they 
were worried about crossing the Illuminati.

-- 
Ian Bicking : ianb at colorstudy.com : http://blog.ianbicking.org
             : Write code, do good : http://topp.openplans.org/careers

From skip at pobox.com  Tue Jul 31 04:28:10 2007
From: skip at pobox.com (skip at pobox.com)
Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2007 21:28:10 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] python tee shirts, etc
In-Reply-To: <694c06d60707301345s4c7dedf1h686020bc4064733b@mail.gmail.com>
References: <45f5fc930707301232r1141dd13xac124f30920713fa@mail.gmail.com>
	<361b27370707301330p1ce18aa5vec343c127c28d891@mail.gmail.com>
	<b92ff66c0707301338q18ab2365j2d4ea507b1ce7cc4@mail.gmail.com>
	<694c06d60707301345s4c7dedf1h686020bc4064733b@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <18094.40506.158477.820828@montanaro.dyndns.org>


    Brantley> Nice, I heart threadless, very good stuff.  Although I'm not
    Brantley> sure that we really need anywhere near that many ChiPy
    Brantley> t-shirts.  Maybe for PyCon, though :)

Hey, here's an idea.  Maybe the Threadless folks can do their normal t-shirt
design thing for PyCon with the added constraint that it be related to
Python (the language).  We'd probably wind up with a more professional
design, and it would likely sell like gangbusters with our fellow Python
geeks.

Skip

From ianb at colorstudy.com  Tue Jul 31 04:31:19 2007
From: ianb at colorstudy.com (Ian Bicking)
Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2007 21:31:19 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] python tee shirts, etc
In-Reply-To: <18094.40506.158477.820828@montanaro.dyndns.org>
References: <45f5fc930707301232r1141dd13xac124f30920713fa@mail.gmail.com>	<361b27370707301330p1ce18aa5vec343c127c28d891@mail.gmail.com>	<b92ff66c0707301338q18ab2365j2d4ea507b1ce7cc4@mail.gmail.com>	<694c06d60707301345s4c7dedf1h686020bc4064733b@mail.gmail.com>
	<18094.40506.158477.820828@montanaro.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <46AE9EF7.5050405@colorstudy.com>

skip at pobox.com wrote:
>     Brantley> Nice, I heart threadless, very good stuff.  Although I'm not
>     Brantley> sure that we really need anywhere near that many ChiPy
>     Brantley> t-shirts.  Maybe for PyCon, though :)
> 
> Hey, here's an idea.  Maybe the Threadless folks can do their normal t-shirt
> design thing for PyCon with the added constraint that it be related to
> Python (the language).  We'd probably wind up with a more professional
> design, and it would likely sell like gangbusters with our fellow Python
> geeks.

FWIW, I thought this year's shirt was really well done.  Too bad it's 
not available in a non-PyCon version.


-- 
Ian Bicking : ianb at colorstudy.com : http://blog.ianbicking.org
             : Write code, do good : http://topp.openplans.org/careers

From maney at two14.net  Tue Jul 31 04:39:22 2007
From: maney at two14.net (Martin Maney)
Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2007 21:39:22 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] python tee shirts, etc
In-Reply-To: <3096c19d0707301814g279f47bcp94a556ce2ecacce5@mail.gmail.com>
References: <45f5fc930707301232r1141dd13xac124f30920713fa@mail.gmail.com>
	<361b27370707301330p1ce18aa5vec343c127c28d891@mail.gmail.com>
	<b92ff66c0707301338q18ab2365j2d4ea507b1ce7cc4@mail.gmail.com>
	<3096c19d0707301348w397379f6w690c1ed86650021b@mail.gmail.com>
	<20070730211540.GL11901@sphinx.chicagopeoplez.org>
	<3096c19d0707301814g279f47bcp94a556ce2ecacce5@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20070731023922.GB4541@furrr.two14.net>

On Mon, Jul 30, 2007 at 08:14:06PM -0500, Chris McAvoy wrote:
> Can someone _please_ explain why 144?

Because twelve.  Eg.:

    http://www.google.com/search?q=why+twelve
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dozen

And because twelve twelves is...

-- 
Anyone who calls economics the dismal science
has never been exposed to educationist theories
at any length.  An hour or two is a surfeit.


From bray at sent.com  Tue Jul 31 04:42:56 2007
From: bray at sent.com (Brian Ray)
Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2007 21:42:56 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] python tee shirts, etc
In-Reply-To: <46AE9979.5080605@colorstudy.com>
References: <45f5fc930707301232r1141dd13xac124f30920713fa@mail.gmail.com>	<361b27370707301330p1ce18aa5vec343c127c28d891@mail.gmail.com>	<b92ff66c0707301338q18ab2365j2d4ea507b1ce7cc4@mail.gmail.com>	<3096c19d0707301348w397379f6w690c1ed86650021b@mail.gmail.com>	<20070730211540.GL11901@sphinx.chicagopeoplez.org>
	<3096c19d0707301814g279f47bcp94a556ce2ecacce5@mail.gmail.com>
	<46AE9979.5080605@colorstudy.com>
Message-ID: <6680C1B4-1461-43F4-806D-6F786DB4A3EF@sent.com>


On Jul 30, 2007, at 9:07 PM, Ian Bicking wrote:

> Chris McAvoy wrote:
>> Can someone _please_ explain why 144?
>
> It's because 1 + 4 + 4 = 9, and 9 = 3 * 3, and 3 is a magical number.

Your clearly right again, Ian.

144 is the largest square Fibonacci number.  Its also highly totient  
because it has 21 solutions of Euler's totient function.  And, of  
course twice 21 is 42. And we all know 42 is the answer to the  
ultimate question of life, the universe and everything.


Brian Ray
bray at sent.com
http://kazavoo.com/blog

From ken at stox.org  Tue Jul 31 04:53:48 2007
From: ken at stox.org (Kenneth P. Stox)
Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2007 21:53:48 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] python tee shirts, etc
In-Reply-To: <3096c19d0707301814g279f47bcp94a556ce2ecacce5@mail.gmail.com>
References: <45f5fc930707301232r1141dd13xac124f30920713fa@mail.gmail.com>
	<361b27370707301330p1ce18aa5vec343c127c28d891@mail.gmail.com>
	<b92ff66c0707301338q18ab2365j2d4ea507b1ce7cc4@mail.gmail.com>
	<3096c19d0707301348w397379f6w690c1ed86650021b@mail.gmail.com>
	<20070730211540.GL11901@sphinx.chicagopeoplez.org>
	<3096c19d0707301814g279f47bcp94a556ce2ecacce5@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1185850428.5912.1.camel@stox.dyndns.org>

On Mon, 2007-07-30 at 20:14 -0500, Chris McAvoy wrote:
> Can someone _please_ explain why 144?

A dozen dozen. A more important question is why 42?


From ianb at colorstudy.com  Tue Jul 31 05:11:07 2007
From: ianb at colorstudy.com (Ian Bicking)
Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2007 22:11:07 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] python tee shirts, etc
In-Reply-To: <20070731023922.GB4541@furrr.two14.net>
References: <45f5fc930707301232r1141dd13xac124f30920713fa@mail.gmail.com>	<361b27370707301330p1ce18aa5vec343c127c28d891@mail.gmail.com>	<b92ff66c0707301338q18ab2365j2d4ea507b1ce7cc4@mail.gmail.com>	<3096c19d0707301348w397379f6w690c1ed86650021b@mail.gmail.com>	<20070730211540.GL11901@sphinx.chicagopeoplez.org>	<3096c19d0707301814g279f47bcp94a556ce2ecacce5@mail.gmail.com>
	<20070731023922.GB4541@furrr.two14.net>
Message-ID: <46AEA84B.5010904@colorstudy.com>

Martin Maney wrote:
> On Mon, Jul 30, 2007 at 08:14:06PM -0500, Chris McAvoy wrote:
>> Can someone _please_ explain why 144?
> 
> Because twelve.  Eg.:
> 
>     http://www.google.com/search?q=why+twelve
>     http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dozen
> 
> And because twelve twelves is...

Twelve is also the size the Romans made their original shirt boxes, and 
they fit 4x3 in wagons.  Napoleon would later try to change the size to 
10, fitting into wagons 10x10, but this did not prove popular because it 
was hard to find 1000 people who wanted to buy the same shirt.  And so 
things went back to the 4x3x12 convention, making 144.


-- 
Ian Bicking : ianb at colorstudy.com : http://blog.ianbicking.org
             : Write code, do good : http://topp.openplans.org/careers

From carl at personnelware.com  Tue Jul 31 05:15:39 2007
From: carl at personnelware.com (Carl Karsten)
Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2007 22:15:39 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] python tee shirts, etc
In-Reply-To: <3096c19d0707301814g279f47bcp94a556ce2ecacce5@mail.gmail.com>
References: <45f5fc930707301232r1141dd13xac124f30920713fa@mail.gmail.com>	<361b27370707301330p1ce18aa5vec343c127c28d891@mail.gmail.com>	<b92ff66c0707301338q18ab2365j2d4ea507b1ce7cc4@mail.gmail.com>	<3096c19d0707301348w397379f6w690c1ed86650021b@mail.gmail.com>	<20070730211540.GL11901@sphinx.chicagopeoplez.org>
	<3096c19d0707301814g279f47bcp94a556ce2ecacce5@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <46AEA95B.1050405@personnelware.com>

So that you can say "that's gross" and laugh so hard snot comes out your nose.

Chris McAvoy wrote:
> Can someone _please_ explain why 144?
> 
> Chris
> 
> On 7/30/07, David Terrell <dbt at meat.net> wrote:
>> On Mon, Jul 30, 2007 at 03:48:36PM -0500, Chris McAvoy wrote:
>>> Why 144?  That's such a weird number.
>>>
>>> I love it when a company isn't afraid to set limits at strange numbers.
>> 12 ** 2, also known as "a gross."
>>
>> --
>> David Terrell
>> dbt at meat.net
>> ((meatspace)) http://meat.net/
>> _______________________________________________
>> Chicago mailing list
>> Chicago at python.org
>> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>>
> _______________________________________________
> Chicago mailing list
> Chicago at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
> 
> 

From bray at sent.com  Tue Jul 31 17:21:45 2007
From: bray at sent.com (Brian Ray)
Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2007 10:21:45 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] August Snakes on Apples Meeting
In-Reply-To: <E7192DEE-6E00-4845-8877-CF5036447DDB@sent.com>
References: <E7192DEE-6E00-4845-8877-CF5036447DDB@sent.com>
Message-ID: <277A56B0-668F-4DF6-9367-1A87CBB9624D@sent.com>

I heard no objections, so I am taking UIC up on the offer to host.  I  
contacted them this morning off the list.

So probably we will meet at UIC. It sounds like a really great  
meeting place. Details to follow.

Meanwhile, I found this link kind of interesting:

  <http://tinyurl.com/ysv244> Mail.app Plugins written in Python
  <http://tinyurl.com/2auvfe> Python Hacking on iPhone

I have seen on some of your blogs, ways to do things with Python for  
Mac specific purpose: automate iTunes, run AppleScripts, crack  
binaries, and so on... Do not want to single anybodyout (yet :-D),  
but I am still waiting for some help with presentations. It may even  
be interesting to hear a talk that opposes the context of Python on  
platform dependence--in other words, why platform independence should  
happen transparently.

Your thoughts?

Brian Ray
bray at sent.com
http://kazavoo.com/blog



From maney at two14.net  Tue Jul 31 17:46:26 2007
From: maney at two14.net (Martin Maney)
Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2007 10:46:26 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] August Snakes on Apples Meeting
In-Reply-To: <277A56B0-668F-4DF6-9367-1A87CBB9624D@sent.com>
References: <E7192DEE-6E00-4845-8877-CF5036447DDB@sent.com>
	<277A56B0-668F-4DF6-9367-1A87CBB9624D@sent.com>
Message-ID: <20070731154626.GB5291@furrr.two14.net>

On Tue, Jul 31, 2007 at 10:21:45AM -0500, Brian Ray wrote:
> be interesting to hear a talk that opposes the context of Python on  
> platform dependence--in other words, why platform independence should  
> happen transparently.
> 
> Your thoughts?

That's too trivial to bother with.  Unnecessary platform dependence is
for dodos, and leads to similar long term results.  Everything else
that could be said about it is just evangelism for the unenlightened.

A *real* lightning talk...

-- 
Microsoft, which used to say all the time that the software business
was ruthlessly competitive, is now matched against a competitor whose
model of production and distribution is so much better that Microsoft
stands no chance of prevailing in the long run. They're simply trying
to scare people out of dealing with a competitor they can't buy,
can't intimidate and can't stop. -- Eben Moglen


From bray at sent.com  Tue Jul 31 21:04:29 2007
From: bray at sent.com (Brian Ray)
Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2007 14:04:29 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] August Snakes on Apples Meeting
In-Reply-To: <20070731154626.GB5291@furrr.two14.net>
References: <E7192DEE-6E00-4845-8877-CF5036447DDB@sent.com>
	<277A56B0-668F-4DF6-9367-1A87CBB9624D@sent.com>
	<20070731154626.GB5291@furrr.two14.net>
Message-ID: <6E78B238-07E9-4E5B-9BB0-427F5F42FA05@sent.com>


On Jul 31, 2007, at 10:46 AM, Martin Maney wrote:

>>
>> Your thoughts?
>
> That's too trivial to bother with.  Unnecessary platform dependence is
> for dodos,

Well, Yes and No. There certainly exists the argument that each  
platform has things it does distinct to the others. And doesn't  
"Batteries Included" imply the ability to have access to as many  
things as possible?

Yes, I want to write platform independent Python. Although, I do not  
want to loose access to anything platform dependent either.


Brian Ray
bray at sent.com
http://kazavoo.com/blog



From carl at personnelware.com  Tue Jul 31 21:22:30 2007
From: carl at personnelware.com (Carl Karsten)
Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2007 14:22:30 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] August Snakes on Apples Meeting
In-Reply-To: <6E78B238-07E9-4E5B-9BB0-427F5F42FA05@sent.com>
References: <E7192DEE-6E00-4845-8877-CF5036447DDB@sent.com>	<277A56B0-668F-4DF6-9367-1A87CBB9624D@sent.com>	<20070731154626.GB5291@furrr.two14.net>
	<6E78B238-07E9-4E5B-9BB0-427F5F42FA05@sent.com>
Message-ID: <46AF8BF6.5050308@personnelware.com>

Brian Ray wrote:
> On Jul 31, 2007, at 10:46 AM, Martin Maney wrote:
> 
>>> Your thoughts?
>> That's too trivial to bother with.  Unnecessary platform dependence is
>> for dodos,
> 
> Well, Yes and No. There certainly exists the argument that each  
> platform has things it does distinct to the others. And doesn't  
> "Batteries Included" imply the ability to have access to as many  
> things as possible?
> 
> Yes, I want to write platform independent Python. Although, I do not  
> want to loose access to anything platform dependent either.
> 

If the task being solved with some python code involves something platform 
specific, I don't think there is any point in discussing the pros and cons of 
independence.   like making an iPhone cry out for attention when it hasn't been 
touched in over an hour (something that would help keep me from loosing it.)  If 
'import iPhone' only works on an iPhone, i don't see a problem.

Carl K


From sgithens at caret.cam.ac.uk  Tue Jul 31 22:23:08 2007
From: sgithens at caret.cam.ac.uk (Steven Githens)
Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2007 15:23:08 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] Emergency - In Need Of Developer
In-Reply-To: <361b27370707220847l6cb76des9585d20aec868fe5@mail.gmail.com>
References: <46A000BA.9020207@placidpublishing.net>	<F2F14B84-5D43-49F7-B80E-FD16D7C1AAAA@sent.com>	<46A0EDB9.4030904@personnelware.com>	<a68ced640707220606r295b6207lfe6ef93f01d051de@mail.gmail.com>
	<361b27370707220847l6cb76des9585d20aec868fe5@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <46AF9A2C.3070509@caret.cam.ac.uk>

Atul Varma wrote:
> On 7/22/07, sheila miguez <shekay at pobox.com> wrote:
>   
>> Did the project fail because of ignorant use of django/python and/or
>> screwed up development processes in general? might want to have a talk
>> about mature development processes + python.
>>
>> a la http://www.dreamingincode.com/
>>     
>
> Has anyone else read this book?  I finished it a few months ago and
> really enjoyed it... Been meaning to write a review of it, actually,
> but never got around to it.
>   
I really enjoyed reading this one, maybe even more than 'Soul of a New 
Machine'.

-steve