From maney at two14.net  Wed Aug  1 03:53:41 2007
From: maney at two14.net (Martin Maney)
Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2007 20:53:41 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] August Snakes on Apples Meeting
In-Reply-To: <6E78B238-07E9-4E5B-9BB0-427F5F42FA05@sent.com>
References: <E7192DEE-6E00-4845-8877-CF5036447DDB@sent.com>
	<277A56B0-668F-4DF6-9367-1A87CBB9624D@sent.com>
	<20070731154626.GB5291@furrr.two14.net>
	<6E78B238-07E9-4E5B-9BB0-427F5F42FA05@sent.com>
Message-ID: <20070801015341.GD5291@furrr.two14.net>

On Tue, Jul 31, 2007 at 02:04:29PM -0500, Brian Ray wrote:
> On Jul 31, 2007, at 10:46 AM, Martin Maney wrote:
> > That's too trivial to bother with.  Unnecessary platform dependence is
> > for dodos,
> 
> Well, Yes and No. There certainly exists the argument that each  
> platform has things it does distinct to the others.

Sure.  And under some circumstances, taking advantage of those can be a
good choice, or at least a necessary one.

> And doesn't "Batteries Included" imply the ability to have access to
> as many things as possible?

I'd rather have one box of good, fully charged batteries than a dozen
boxes of chancy ones, so no, I don't think it should.

> Yes, I want to write platform independent Python. Although, I do not  
> want to loose access to anything platform dependent either.

/me sings:  Have you ever had to finally decide...

-- 
Slashdot: confirming Sturgeon's Law, 24x7


From tottinge at gmail.com  Fri Aug  3 00:14:56 2007
From: tottinge at gmail.com (Tim Ottinger)
Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2007 17:14:56 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] python tee shirts, etc
In-Reply-To: <3096c19d0707301348w397379f6w690c1ed86650021b@mail.gmail.com>
References: <45f5fc930707301232r1141dd13xac124f30920713fa@mail.gmail.com>
	<361b27370707301330p1ce18aa5vec343c127c28d891@mail.gmail.com>
	<b92ff66c0707301338q18ab2365j2d4ea507b1ce7cc4@mail.gmail.com>
	<3096c19d0707301348w397379f6w690c1ed86650021b@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <a975a1ef0708021514q3cde8091k6ee9753b68369bf6@mail.gmail.com>

Its not weird. It's gross.



On 7/30/07, Chris McAvoy <chris.mcavoy at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Why 144?  That's such a weird number.
>
> I love it when a company isn't afraid to set limits at strange numbers.
>
> Chris
>
> On 7/30/07, Harper Reed <harper at nata2.org> wrote:
> > Since i work for a t-shirt company i thought maybe it would be a good
> time
> > to jump in:
> >
> > Shirts are relatively easy. Cafepress blows. Well - they are awesome for
> > quick one offs and what not. But if you want a good quality print or
> > t-shirt, you will have to have it done at a professional screen printing
> > place. It shouldn't be too hard to gauge how many people are interested
> and
> > then make an order.
> >
> > Chicago has a bundle of great screen printers.
> >
> > At threadless we use a place called Shirts our business
> > (http://www.sobltd.com/). They are really solid. The only catch is that
> you
> > have to have a batch of 144 or more before they will print anything. We
> also
> > use sharprint ( http://www.sharprint.com/), although i think they also
> have
> > a minimum order. If 144 is too many (it probably is) then
> > propaganda(http://www.propagandatshirts.com/ ) is pretty
> > decent.
> >
> > Any of those places could help move art from computer to shirt and help
> > scale and color it appropriately.
> >
> > Hope this is helpful.
> >
> > -harper
> >
> >
> >  On 7/30/07, Atul Varma <varmaa at gmail.com> wrote:
> > > This is Chipy-specific, so it may not be exactly what you're looking
> > > for, but here goes:
> > >
> > > Back in February, Brantley Harris drew a really cool ChiPy image,
> > > which consisted of a chipmunk with a Python on a leash, and I
> > > embellished it with a logo and put it on a long-sleeve T-Shirt:
> > >
> > >
> >
> http://www.cafepress.com/cp/customize/product.aspx?clear=true&number=109266329
> > >
> > > Some more options that I came up with at the time can be found here:
> > >
> > >
> > http://mail.python.org/pipermail/chicago/2007-February/001704.html
> > >
> > > I really need to order myself up one of those.  I would ask if anyone
> > > else wants a copy, but since it's on cafepress, I guess you can all
> > > just order it from there if you want one.
> > >
> > > - Atul
> > >
> > > On 7/30/07, Doug Harvey <doug.harvey at gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > A guy that works with me just recently started using Python and
> really
> > > > likes it; most other developers around here still only use bash+awk,
> > > > just to give you an idea.
> > > >
> > > > Anyway, I thought it would be fun to get him some sort of python tee
> > > > shirt or pin, etc.  I did a bit of google searching and really
> > > > couldn't find any site that sells "python powered" shirts or other
> > > > paraphernalia.
> > > >
> > > > Anyone know of such a site?
> > > >
> > > > doug
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Chicago mailing list
> > > > Chicago at python.org
> > > > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
> > > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Chicago mailing list
> > > Chicago at python.org
> > > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Harper Reed
> > blog: nata2.org
> > home: harperreed.org
> > _______________________________________________
> > Chicago mailing list
> > Chicago at python.org
> > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
> >
> >
> _______________________________________________
> Chicago mailing list
> Chicago at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>
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From kumar.mcmillan at gmail.com  Fri Aug  3 06:37:31 2007
From: kumar.mcmillan at gmail.com (Kumar McMillan)
Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2007 23:37:31 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] August Snakes on Apples Meeting
In-Reply-To: <E7192DEE-6E00-4845-8877-CF5036447DDB@sent.com>
References: <E7192DEE-6E00-4845-8877-CF5036447DDB@sent.com>
Message-ID: <b571660a0708022137h279fd8b2g62c08a7bd81a3ac1@mail.gmail.com>

On 7/25/07, Brian Ray <bray at sent.com> wrote:
> Planning is going well for the August meeting <http://chipy.org/
> SnakesOnApples>. As I mentioned at our last meeting, we have an offer
> for a venue at UIC. I would like to let them know next week in case
> that is what we choose.  Google will be closer to where C4 is being
> held but I am not sure if they are able to host. Fitz, are you able
> to host?  Apple store is out of the question because it did not fit
> our needs. Alders Planetarium is booked.
>
> We also have a sponsor for food. Thanks Roy Talman & Associates.
> Doug Pratt will be attending.
>
> Regarding presentations, we do not have anyone lined up yet. There
> has been some grumbling. I tried to get some specific mac people from
> C4 to present but most are not flying in until the next day. If you
> know someone or you would like to present, here are some possible
> topics:
>
>    How Python ships on the Mac
>    Mac specific modules part of Python Standard Library
>    PyObj <http://pyobjc.sourceforge.net/>
>    Apple Events
>    py2app
>    Mac Software using Python: ie BitTorrent, Blender, FontLab
>    macholib - analyze the Mach-O binary format
>    wxPython

[time warp ... just moved to Uptown; the dust is beginning to settle]

hrmmm, it's not listed but I could demo some features for editing
python code in TextMate [1] if enough people were interested.  I've
been committing various commands/snippets/syntaxes/ to the Bundles
repository [2] way back since TextMate was in beta (when it sucked!).
There are perhaps a few undocumented bundles that I could highlight.
I don't know if it would be a very exciting presentation; it's just an
editor.  And it's not emacs! :)  It's also commercial, fyi.

[1] http://macromates.com/
[2] http://macromates.com/svn/Bundles/trunk/  ...and...
http://macromates.com/textmate/manual/bundles.html#getting_more_bundles

Kumar

From bray at sent.com  Fri Aug  3 16:59:28 2007
From: bray at sent.com (Brian Ray)
Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2007 09:59:28 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] August Snakes on Apples Meeting
In-Reply-To: <b571660a0708022137h279fd8b2g62c08a7bd81a3ac1@mail.gmail.com>
References: <E7192DEE-6E00-4845-8877-CF5036447DDB@sent.com>
	<b571660a0708022137h279fd8b2g62c08a7bd81a3ac1@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <EF07C6CB-D6D0-4993-9519-4BE0E5A488E6@sent.com>

On Aug 2, 2007, at 11:37 PM, Kumar McMillan wrote:

> [time warp ... just moved to Uptown; the dust is beginning to settle]
>
> hrmmm, it's not listed but I could demo some features for editing
> python code in TextMate [1] if enough people were interested.  I've

I think that would be great. I have heard a lot of good things about  
TextMate.  Thanks for stepping up to the plate. I have you down as a  
presenter. Thanks!

I will be presenting on *something* as well. Anybody else?

Brian Ray
bray at sent.com
http://kazavoo.com/blog



From kumar.mcmillan at gmail.com  Fri Aug  3 17:04:15 2007
From: kumar.mcmillan at gmail.com (Kumar McMillan)
Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2007 10:04:15 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] code review tools
In-Reply-To: <a68ced640707240914kb47a620j9e1dfa5447036407@mail.gmail.com>
References: <a68ced640707220608g7fec4e38xf6c1f6c5c76e3745@mail.gmail.com>
	<200707220826.37289.pfein@pobox.com>
	<200707231517.47502.pfein@pobox.com>
	<a68ced640707231323q568e32dbiad76b3841eafd175@mail.gmail.com>
	<a975a1ef0707232030l3fe1be32p38e5f2a362a890b0@mail.gmail.com>
	<2EF3D977-9A60-40A0-B612-A9CD70E56EFB@sent.com>
	<a68ced640707240914kb47a620j9e1dfa5447036407@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <b571660a0708030804i15d0f4cp17936ad201bf769d@mail.gmail.com>

On 7/24/07, sheila miguez <shekay at pobox.com> wrote:
> Don't you guys do code reviews?
>
> I'm talking anywhere from incredibly formal Fagen types of things to
> light-weight asynchronous things. Do I need to define this?

[once again late to the thread; it will never die - muhuhahahaha]

Apparently, yes, a definition needs to be stated:  Someone writes
code, another developer scrutinizes it, perhaps runs the tests, asks
why they are all failing, yells and screams, etc.  Code reviewing is
way different than pair programming because you can observe how a
developer thinks for himself.  I think people learn best by making
mistakes and a code review is about observing the mistakes then
explaining why/how to fix.  Pair programming promotes different
learning (i.e. show and tell) and has its place but at the end of the
day no one has time to pair program all the time (in my experience).

Anyway, I'm going to say something crazy, so brace yourself.  Our team
actually did an assessment of open source code review tools available
about 3 or 4 months ago (the django Review Board wasn't on the radar
then) and we went with Codestriker, written in *gasp* perl!
http://codestriker.sourceforge.net/

I have to say it actually works pretty well.  The interface is clunky
but the nicest thing is that you can enter in the svn work branch that
the feature was developed in and it will generate a diff against trunk
(you can also enter rev numbers or upload a diff).  When you want to
make a comment on a segment of code, you just click on the line number
and the reviewee can see that block of code in the comments view.  It
gets less granular then that: you can make a comment per file or per
overall diff.

Granted, we are still trying to make code reviews part of our regular
routine so we haven't had a lot of experience with the tool yet.  I
also plan to try out Review Board when I have time.

Similar to what Brian pointed out, we literally used to print out code
and gather in a conference room with a highlighter to do this sort of
thing.  Yes, code reviews are really important.  If I could sum it up
with some bullet points perhaps they would be:

 1. keeps the coder working diligently, knowing he/she is being watched
 2. lessens the chance for huge architectural mistakes to happen (+
better test coverage)
 3. keeps code consistent across the team

The company I'm at has been burnt by this so many times that the scars
are now unrecognizable.  Mostly by number #2.  [sigh].  Even the
quickest, simplest code review can shed stadium-strength light on a
situation.  I.E. "why is there a module called hacks.py?"

K

From szybalski at gmail.com  Fri Aug  3 17:24:30 2007
From: szybalski at gmail.com (Lukasz Szybalski)
Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2007 10:24:30 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] How to get table names from ODBC?
In-Reply-To: <804e5c70708030823y73bb84a5le295c993150689@mail.gmail.com>
References: <804e5c70708030823y73bb84a5le295c993150689@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <804e5c70708030824q1ee5c05em5b87d762e9dae28d@mail.gmail.com>

Hello,
I am using python win32 extentions.

I get connected via odbc to a database files that are sitting in the folder.

import dbi,odbc
db=odbc.odbc('dbfiles')
cursor=db.cursor()
cursor.execute('select * from tableabcd')
print  cursor.description

This way I am able to find column names.
How do i find a available table names?  I have 20 tables available to
me. How do I list their names??

Lucas

From tottinge at gmail.com  Fri Aug  3 18:50:18 2007
From: tottinge at gmail.com (Tim Ottinger)
Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2007 11:50:18 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] How to get table names from ODBC?
In-Reply-To: <804e5c70708030824q1ee5c05em5b87d762e9dae28d@mail.gmail.com>
References: <804e5c70708030823y73bb84a5le295c993150689@mail.gmail.com>
	<804e5c70708030824q1ee5c05em5b87d762e9dae28d@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <a975a1ef0708030950r598d106dx768eb3d1f23cb16c@mail.gmail.com>

Isn't that database-dependent and not connection-mode dependent?
Every database has system tables, and they don't have standardize name and
schema across database vendors.
If there is a general way, i do not know it.



On 8/3/07, Lukasz Szybalski <szybalski at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Hello,
> I am using python win32 extentions.
>
> I get connected via odbc to a database files that are sitting in the
> folder.
>
> import dbi,odbc
> db=odbc.odbc('dbfiles')
> cursor=db.cursor()
> cursor.execute('select * from tableabcd')
> print  cursor.description
>
> This way I am able to find column names.
> How do i find a available table names?  I have 20 tables available to
> me. How do I list their names??
>
> Lucas
> _______________________________________________
> Chicago mailing list
> Chicago at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>
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From kumar.mcmillan at gmail.com  Fri Aug  3 19:00:31 2007
From: kumar.mcmillan at gmail.com (Kumar McMillan)
Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2007 12:00:31 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] August Snakes on Apples Meeting
In-Reply-To: <EF07C6CB-D6D0-4993-9519-4BE0E5A488E6@sent.com>
References: <E7192DEE-6E00-4845-8877-CF5036447DDB@sent.com>
	<b571660a0708022137h279fd8b2g62c08a7bd81a3ac1@mail.gmail.com>
	<EF07C6CB-D6D0-4993-9519-4BE0E5A488E6@sent.com>
Message-ID: <b571660a0708031000x3a95d690r91a0831e41d2f329@mail.gmail.com>

On 8/3/07, Brian Ray <bray at sent.com> wrote:
> I think that would be great. I have heard a lot of good things about
> TextMate.  Thanks for stepping up to the plate. I have you down as a
> presenter. Thanks!

To try and avoid boredom, I'll probably focus more on the
extensibility of TextMate: how to create your own Commands / Bundles,
the tm_dialog command, etc.  It's easier than writing Lisp!  I updated
the wiki: http://chipy.org/SnakesOnApples


>
> I will be presenting on *something* as well. Anybody else?
>
> Brian Ray
> bray at sent.com
> http://kazavoo.com/blog

From pfein at pobox.com  Fri Aug  3 19:11:22 2007
From: pfein at pobox.com (Pete)
Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2007 12:11:22 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] August Snakes on Apples Meeting
In-Reply-To: <b571660a0708031000x3a95d690r91a0831e41d2f329@mail.gmail.com>
References: <E7192DEE-6E00-4845-8877-CF5036447DDB@sent.com>
	<EF07C6CB-D6D0-4993-9519-4BE0E5A488E6@sent.com>
	<b571660a0708031000x3a95d690r91a0831e41d2f329@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <200708031211.23042.pfein@pobox.com>

On Friday August 3 2007 12:00 pm, Kumar McMillan wrote:
> On 8/3/07, Brian Ray <bray at sent.com> wrote:
> > I think that would be great. I have heard a lot of good things about
> > TextMate.  Thanks for stepping up to the plate. I have you down as a
> > presenter. Thanks!
>
> To try and avoid boredom, I'll probably focus more on the
> extensibility of TextMate: how to create your own Commands / Bundles,
> the tm_dialog command, etc.  It's easier than writing Lisp!  I updated
> the wiki: http://chipy.org/SnakesOnApples

FWIW, I'd like to see a demo of using TextMate to edit Python more than how to 
customize it (since I have no motivation to customize it if I'm not using it 
to begin with).

-- 
Peter Fein   ||   773-575-0694   ||   pfein at pobox.com
http://www.pobox.com/~pfein/   ||   PGP: 0xCCF6AE6B
irc: pfein at freenode.net   ||   jabber: peter.fein at gmail.com

From kumar.mcmillan at gmail.com  Fri Aug  3 20:18:44 2007
From: kumar.mcmillan at gmail.com (Kumar McMillan)
Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2007 13:18:44 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] August Snakes on Apples Meeting
In-Reply-To: <200708031211.23042.pfein@pobox.com>
References: <E7192DEE-6E00-4845-8877-CF5036447DDB@sent.com>
	<EF07C6CB-D6D0-4993-9519-4BE0E5A488E6@sent.com>
	<b571660a0708031000x3a95d690r91a0831e41d2f329@mail.gmail.com>
	<200708031211.23042.pfein@pobox.com>
Message-ID: <b571660a0708031118u445e6fe7r295561f148031273@mail.gmail.com>

On 8/3/07, Pete <pfein at pobox.com> wrote:
> On Friday August 3 2007 12:00 pm, Kumar McMillan wrote:
> > To try and avoid boredom, I'll probably focus more on the
> > extensibility of TextMate: how to create your own Commands / Bundles,
> > the tm_dialog command, etc.  It's easier than writing Lisp!  I updated
> > the wiki: http://chipy.org/SnakesOnApples
>
> FWIW, I'd like to see a demo of using TextMate to edit Python more than how to
> customize it (since I have no motivation to customize it if I'm not using it
> to begin with).

noted!

From maney at two14.net  Sat Aug  4 08:51:16 2007
From: maney at two14.net (Martin Maney)
Date: Sat, 4 Aug 2007 01:51:16 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] How to get table names from ODBC?
In-Reply-To: <a975a1ef0708030950r598d106dx768eb3d1f23cb16c@mail.gmail.com>
References: <804e5c70708030823y73bb84a5le295c993150689@mail.gmail.com>
	<804e5c70708030824q1ee5c05em5b87d762e9dae28d@mail.gmail.com>
	<a975a1ef0708030950r598d106dx768eb3d1f23cb16c@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20070804065116.GB11393@furrr.two14.net>

On Fri, Aug 03, 2007 at 11:50:18AM -0500, Tim Ottinger wrote:
> Isn't that database-dependent and not connection-mode dependent?
> Every database has system tables, and they don't have standardize name and
> schema across database vendors.
> If there is a general way, i do not know it.

Actually, the SQL standard does have some well-specified stuff in the
information_schema.  And some relational databases even support enough
of it to be useful!  Amazing, ain't it?

-- 
We had a lot of booming cyberanarchy in the USA for 20 years, and
now we are looking at several years of stagnant feudal nothingness.
I would guess about maybe one Presidential administration worth of
nothing.  -- Bruce Sterling

From bray at sent.com  Sat Aug  4 18:44:48 2007
From: bray at sent.com (bray at sent.com)
Date: Sat, 04 Aug 2007 11:44:48 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] August Snakes on Apples Meeting
In-Reply-To: <EF07C6CB-D6D0-4993-9519-4BE0E5A488E6@sent.com>
References: <E7192DEE-6E00-4845-8877-CF5036447DDB@sent.com>
	<b571660a0708022137h279fd8b2g62c08a7bd81a3ac1@mail.gmail.com>
	<EF07C6CB-D6D0-4993-9519-4BE0E5A488E6@sent.com>
Message-ID: <1186245888.2845.1203735861@webmail.messagingengine.com>


On Fri, 3 Aug 2007 09:59:28 -0500, "Brian Ray" <bray at sent.com> said:

> 
> I will be presenting on *something* as well. Anybody else?
> 

Ok, I think I found my *something*.  My topic is (drum roll please):

  "Address Book Plugin for syncing with gmail contacts utilizing
  libgmail"

Its kind of neat because it used the Address book that ships with every
new Mac, and has since (I dunno 10.2 probably).  It has a Plugin API for
writing plugins in "C".  Other applications, like Mail.app, share the
address information. 

I was trying to get my contacts into gmail one day. It was really
annoying because I had to like export crap, upload crap, etc etc... So
then I recalled that libgmail <http://libgmail.sourceforge.net/> is  a
python package that allows contact management from Python.  All macs
also ship with Python in a form where an application can link
dynamically--called a framework (which is no more than a dylib, which is
much like a .so). Anyway, it will be a neat and maybe useful example of
embedding Python in "C", using Python on the Mac, and hacking gmail.
Source will be available after the meeting.

Because the Python's C-API is the same on all platforms, this may also
be interesting to those of you who wish to embed Python elsewhere. BTW,
I love to embed Python.

Hope to see you all there <http://chipy.org/SnakesOnApples>,

Brian Ray
bray at sent.com
http://kazavoo.com/blog




From fitz at red-bean.com  Sun Aug  5 07:01:21 2007
From: fitz at red-bean.com (Brian W. Fitzpatrick)
Date: Sun, 5 Aug 2007 00:01:21 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] Python sprint at Google
Message-ID: <a5375ad50708042201h3c0b0736kf1a09d408ab71132@mail.gmail.com>

In case people don't know, Google is hosting a sprint on Python again
this year (in Mountain View), hacking on the language from August 22-25.

 http://wiki.python.org/moin/GoogleSprint

I'm trying to gauge interest from folks in Chicago to see if it's worthwhile
for us to host a Chicago part of the sprint (videoconferenced into
Mountain View).

This is a great way to learn more about how to change language
features!  So if you want to learn more about how Python works
underneath the covers or how we develop it, come find out.

Right now we are expecting at least the following Googlers will be sprinting:
 Guido, Alex Martelli, Collin Winter, Talin, and Neal Norwitz.

If you are interested, respond to this thread and let me know by
midnight on August 9th, at which point I'll take a tally and see if
we've got enough folks interested for us to host a node.

-Fitz

From skip at pobox.com  Sun Aug  5 13:47:02 2007
From: skip at pobox.com (skip at pobox.com)
Date: Sun, 5 Aug 2007 06:47:02 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] Python sprint at Google
In-Reply-To: <a5375ad50708042201h3c0b0736kf1a09d408ab71132@mail.gmail.com>
References: <a5375ad50708042201h3c0b0736kf1a09d408ab71132@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <18101.47286.254363.1324@montanaro.dyndns.org>


    Brian> In case people don't know, Google is hosting a sprint on Python
    Brian> again this year (in Mountain View), hacking on the language from
    Brian> August 22-25.

    Brian>  http://wiki.python.org/moin/GoogleSprint

    Brian> I'm trying to gauge interest from folks in Chicago to see if it's
    Brian> worthwhile for us to host a Chicago part of the sprint
    Brian> (videoconferenced into Mountain View).

I complained on the above wiki page about the lack of a Chicago location, so
I ought to pipe up here.  I need to check with my boss, but will try to make
the 22nd and 23rd.  I think this would be an excellent opportunity for me to
learn about the Python 3 implementation.  I've been struggling trying to
understand a recent string->unicode patch to the csv module.  It seems the
first two days would be the best for that sort of exposure.

The GoogleSprint page doesn't say anything about the hours each day.  We'll
be two hours ahead of them, so knowing when the Cali gang will be sprinting
will be of interest.

Skip

From varmaa at gmail.com  Sun Aug  5 17:18:37 2007
From: varmaa at gmail.com (Atul Varma)
Date: Sun, 5 Aug 2007 10:18:37 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] Python sprint at Google
In-Reply-To: <a5375ad50708042201h3c0b0736kf1a09d408ab71132@mail.gmail.com>
References: <a5375ad50708042201h3c0b0736kf1a09d408ab71132@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <361b27370708050818x7ce706d8g89ebaa5be3e76f3d@mail.gmail.com>

I'm definitely interested in attending such a sprint in Chicago.

- Atul

On 8/5/07, Brian W. Fitzpatrick <fitz at red-bean.com> wrote:
>
> In case people don't know, Google is hosting a sprint on Python again
> this year (in Mountain View), hacking on the language from August 22-25.
>
> http://wiki.python.org/moin/GoogleSprint
>
> I'm trying to gauge interest from folks in Chicago to see if it's
> worthwhile
> for us to host a Chicago part of the sprint (videoconferenced into
> Mountain View).
>
> This is a great way to learn more about how to change language
> features!  So if you want to learn more about how Python works
> underneath the covers or how we develop it, come find out.
>
> Right now we are expecting at least the following Googlers will be
> sprinting:
> Guido, Alex Martelli, Collin Winter, Talin, and Neal Norwitz.
>
> If you are interested, respond to this thread and let me know by
> midnight on August 9th, at which point I'll take a tally and see if
> we've got enough folks interested for us to host a node.
>
> -Fitz
> _______________________________________________
> Chicago mailing list
> Chicago at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>
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From bray at sent.com  Mon Aug  6 05:41:02 2007
From: bray at sent.com (Brian Ray)
Date: Sun, 5 Aug 2007 22:41:02 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] ANN: ChiPy August Meeting Topic "Snakes On Apples"
Message-ID: <84A0B6FA-9DAE-48E9-B66C-F179D71F00ED@sent.com>

ChiPy the Chipmunk** invites you to attend August's Chicago Python  
User Group meeting. ChiPy says, "This will be the best meet ever!"

When
----

Thursday August 9th 2007 7:00PM

Cost
----

Free

Topics
------

Snakes on Apples <http://chipy.org/SnakesOnApples> Developing Python  
on the Mac. All are welcome, no Macintosh, Unix, or Python experience  
required.

  - TextMate with Python -- Kumar McMillan
     + how to edit / navigate -- all the stuff that makes it  
comparable to emacs or whatnot (I'll keep this short)
     + hack: how to write commands / Bundles to automate your coding  
needs
  - Address Book Plugin for syncing with gmail contacts utilizing  
libgmail -- Brian Ray
  - Python Sprint at Google and PyCon '08 updates / discussion
  - After: If you wish, follow Chipy the Chipmunk to Greektown or  
Taylor Street

Venue
-----

::
   The University of Illinois at Chicago
   Science and Engineering Offices (SEO 1000)
   851 South Morgan Street
   Chicago, Illinois 60607

(note: Emergency Cell 773 835 9876, if you get lost and need moral  
support)

CTA
~~~

FROM O'HARE AIRPORT BY CTA TRAIN: Take the CTA BLUE LINE TRAIN from  
O'Hare to the UIC-Halsted stop. Exit up
stairs in center of the train platform (the platform also has two  
long ramps on either side heading East and West, which also
can be used). Proceed South on street level to the UIC campus.

FROM MIDWAY AIRPORT BY CTA TRAIN: Take the CTA ORANGE LINE TRAIN from  
Midway to the Clark/Lake station. Exit
the train, GO DOWNSTAIRS and transfer to the CTA BLUE LINE. Take the  
Blue Line train towards 54/Cermak (Forest Park)
and exit at the UIC-Halsted stop. Exit up stairs in center of the  
train platform (the platform also has two long ramps on either
side heading East and West, which also can be used). Proceed South on  
street level to the UIC campus.


Driving
~~~~~~~

PARKING: Public parking is available via a four-level parking garage  
on the NE corner of Taylor & Halsted streets, and at
the open parking lot on the SE corner of Taylor and Morgan streets.  
IF PARKING IN THE GARAGE, ENTER ON THE
LEFT DRIVEWAY as you turn Nor th into the building, ensuring that you  
take a ticket. If parking in the open lot, enter
through the Southern most driveway, the one that has the attendant  
booth.

DRIVING FROM THE NORTH: Take 90/94 South (Kennedy Expressway) to the  
Taylor Street/Roosevelt Ave, Exit 52A.
Keep to the right and turn right immediately onto Taylor Street. The  
entrance to the parking garage will be immediately to
your right.

FROM THE SOUTH: Take 90/94 Nor th (Dan Ryan Expressway). Pass to the  
far right lane and take the Roosevelt Ave exit,
Exit 52B. Stay in the middle or far right lane and go straight  
through the first intersection, paralleling the expressway. Turn
left onto Taylor Street. The entrance to the parking garage will be  
to your right.

FROM THE WEST: Take 290 East (Eisenhower Expressway) to 90/94 South  
(Dan Ryan Expressway). Immediately exit to
the right onto Taylor Street/Roosevelt Ave, Exit 52A. Stay to the  
right and turn right at the light onto Taylor Street. The
entrance to the parking garage will be immediately to your right.
FROM THE EAST: In the Loop area, take Harrison Street. Proceed west  
and turn left onto Halsted Street. Continue South
on Halsted, turn left onto Taylor and left again into the parking  
garage.


Food Donations
--------------

Roy Talman & Associate


About ChiPy
-----------

ChiPy is a group of Chicago Python Programmers, l33t, and n00bs.
Meetings are held monthly at various locations around Chicago.
Also, ChiPy is a proud sponsor of many Open Source and Educational
efforts in Chicago. Stay tuned to the mailing list for more info.

ChiPy website: <http://chipy.org>
ChiPy Mailing List: <http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago>
Python website: <http://python.org>

** "ChiPy the Chipmunk" is a fictitious character. Any similarity to  
actual chipmunks, living or dead, is purely coincidental.

------

From cstejerean at gmail.com  Mon Aug  6 09:50:50 2007
From: cstejerean at gmail.com (Cosmin Stejerean)
Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2007 02:50:50 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] Python sprint at Google
In-Reply-To: <a5375ad50708042201h3c0b0736kf1a09d408ab71132@mail.gmail.com>
References: <a5375ad50708042201h3c0b0736kf1a09d408ab71132@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <276266d0708060050j32083bdeh131d819b1448b500@mail.gmail.com>

I'm interested in attending a sprint in Chicago.

On 8/5/07, Brian W. Fitzpatrick <fitz at red-bean.com> wrote:
>
> In case people don't know, Google is hosting a sprint on Python again
> this year (in Mountain View), hacking on the language from August 22-25.
>
> http://wiki.python.org/moin/GoogleSprint
>
> I'm trying to gauge interest from folks in Chicago to see if it's
> worthwhile
> for us to host a Chicago part of the sprint (videoconferenced into
> Mountain View).
>
> This is a great way to learn more about how to change language
> features!  So if you want to learn more about how Python works
> underneath the covers or how we develop it, come find out.
>
> Right now we are expecting at least the following Googlers will be
> sprinting:
> Guido, Alex Martelli, Collin Winter, Talin, and Neal Norwitz.
>
> If you are interested, respond to this thread and let me know by
> midnight on August 9th, at which point I'll take a tally and see if
> we've got enough folks interested for us to host a node.
>
> -Fitz
> _______________________________________________
> Chicago mailing list
> Chicago at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>
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From andrew at humanized.com  Mon Aug  6 15:40:08 2007
From: andrew at humanized.com (Andrew Wilson)
Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2007 08:40:08 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] Python sprint at Google
In-Reply-To: <a5375ad50708042201h3c0b0736kf1a09d408ab71132@mail.gmail.com>
References: <a5375ad50708042201h3c0b0736kf1a09d408ab71132@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <c1b1d8150708060640h42ea7052l4112239083924909@mail.gmail.com>

I'm interested in attending all or part of this sprint in Chicago.

-- Andrew Wilson

On 8/5/07, Brian W. Fitzpatrick <fitz at red-bean.com> wrote:
>
> In case people don't know, Google is hosting a sprint on Python again
> this year (in Mountain View), hacking on the language from August 22-25.
>
> http://wiki.python.org/moin/GoogleSprint
>
> I'm trying to gauge interest from folks in Chicago to see if it's
> worthwhile
> for us to host a Chicago part of the sprint (videoconferenced into
> Mountain View).
>
> This is a great way to learn more about how to change language
> features!  So if you want to learn more about how Python works
> underneath the covers or how we develop it, come find out.
>
> Right now we are expecting at least the following Googlers will be
> sprinting:
> Guido, Alex Martelli, Collin Winter, Talin, and Neal Norwitz.
>
> If you are interested, respond to this thread and let me know by
> midnight on August 9th, at which point I'll take a tally and see if
> we've got enough folks interested for us to host a node.
>
> -Fitz
> _______________________________________________
> Chicago mailing list
> Chicago at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>
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From cwebber at imagescape.com  Mon Aug  6 16:30:44 2007
From: cwebber at imagescape.com (Christopher Allan Webber)
Date: Mon, 06 Aug 2007 09:30:44 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] Python sprint at Google
In-Reply-To: <a5375ad50708042201h3c0b0736kf1a09d408ab71132@mail.gmail.com>
	(Brian W. Fitzpatrick's message of "Sun,
	5 Aug 2007 00:01:21 -0500")
References: <a5375ad50708042201h3c0b0736kf1a09d408ab71132@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <6y8x8o7n1n.fsf@moretomore.rd.imagescape.com>

I'm interested in attending, certainly.

"Brian W. Fitzpatrick" <fitz at red-bean.com> writes:

> In case people don't know, Google is hosting a sprint on Python again
> this year (in Mountain View), hacking on the language from August 22-25.
>
>  http://wiki.python.org/moin/GoogleSprint
>
> I'm trying to gauge interest from folks in Chicago to see if it's worthwhile
> for us to host a Chicago part of the sprint (videoconferenced into
> Mountain View).
>
> This is a great way to learn more about how to change language
> features!  So if you want to learn more about how Python works
> underneath the covers or how we develop it, come find out.
>
> Right now we are expecting at least the following Googlers will be sprinting:
>  Guido, Alex Martelli, Collin Winter, Talin, and Neal Norwitz.
>
> If you are interested, respond to this thread and let me know by
> midnight on August 9th, at which point I'll take a tally and see if
> we've got enough folks interested for us to host a node.
>
> -Fitz
> _______________________________________________
> Chicago mailing list
> Chicago at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago

From carl at personnelware.com  Mon Aug  6 17:05:38 2007
From: carl at personnelware.com (Carl Karsten)
Date: Mon, 06 Aug 2007 10:05:38 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] Python sprint at Google
In-Reply-To: <a5375ad50708042201h3c0b0736kf1a09d408ab71132@mail.gmail.com>
References: <a5375ad50708042201h3c0b0736kf1a09d408ab71132@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <46B738C2.6060405@personnelware.com>

Brian W. Fitzpatrick wrote:
> In case people don't know, Google is hosting a sprint on Python again
> this year (in Mountain View), hacking on the language from August 22-25.
> 
>  http://wiki.python.org/moin/GoogleSprint
> 
> I'm trying to gauge interest from folks in Chicago to see if it's worthwhile
> for us to host a Chicago part of the sprint (videoconferenced into
> Mountain View).
> 
> This is a great way to learn more about how to change language
> features!  So if you want to learn more about how Python works
> underneath the covers or how we develop it, come find out.
> 
> Right now we are expecting at least the following Googlers will be sprinting:
>  Guido, Alex Martelli, Collin Winter, Talin, and Neal Norwitz.
> 
> If you are interested, respond to this thread and let me know by
> midnight on August 9th, at which point I'll take a tally and see if
> we've got enough folks interested for us to host a node.
> 

I am in, 22-24 for sure.  probably 25 too.

Carl K



From jbalint at gmail.com  Mon Aug  6 17:42:45 2007
From: jbalint at gmail.com (Jess Balint)
Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2007 10:42:45 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] How to get table names from ODBC?
In-Reply-To: <804e5c70708030824q1ee5c05em5b87d762e9dae28d@mail.gmail.com>
References: <804e5c70708030823y73bb84a5le295c993150689@mail.gmail.com>
	<804e5c70708030824q1ee5c05em5b87d762e9dae28d@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20070806154245.GH24062@gumby.improvedideas.com>

On Fri, Aug 03, 2007 at 10:24:30AM -0500, Lukasz Szybalski wrote:
> Hello,
> I am using python win32 extentions.
> 
> I get connected via odbc to a database files that are sitting in the folder.

There is an ODBC function called SQLTables() that facilitates this, but
it seems this library doesn't expose it.

Jess

From bray at sent.com  Mon Aug  6 17:56:23 2007
From: bray at sent.com (Brian Ray)
Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2007 10:56:23 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] Python sprint at Google
In-Reply-To: <a5375ad50708042201h3c0b0736kf1a09d408ab71132@mail.gmail.com>
References: <a5375ad50708042201h3c0b0736kf1a09d408ab71132@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <FCE37267-F4D4-4CFF-8EE8-FAF9EB2EDE8B@sent.com>

On Aug 5, 2007, at 12:01 AM, Brian W. Fitzpatrick wrote:

>
>  http://wiki.python.org/moin/GoogleSprint
>

I would rather not show up at all than show up unprepared. I know  
from previous Sprints and because I know you guys, you do not always  
come prepared. I have been guilty of that, as well. I recommend that  
those who *do* Sprint really make an effort to come prepared.  The  
wiki defines this clearly. Just ask yourself, "am I prepared to a  
level where I can contribute to achieving the goal?"

Brian Ray
bray at sent.com

PS I love you guys ;) Have fun and blog about how it goes.



From chris.mcavoy at gmail.com  Tue Aug  7 17:57:08 2007
From: chris.mcavoy at gmail.com (Chris McAvoy)
Date: Tue, 7 Aug 2007 10:57:08 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] ANN: ChiPy August Meeting Topic "Snakes On Apples"
In-Reply-To: <84A0B6FA-9DAE-48E9-B66C-F179D71F00ED@sent.com>
References: <84A0B6FA-9DAE-48E9-B66C-F179D71F00ED@sent.com>
Message-ID: <3096c19d0708070857y39ec02eckf6c8e5520d503339@mail.gmail.com>

Hi Chipy's,

I can't be at the meeting this Thursday.  Baby Wil came this past
Saturday morning.  He and his Mom are doing great.

I'm sure I'll be at the meeting in September though,
Chris

On 8/5/07, Brian Ray <bray at sent.com> wrote:
> ChiPy the Chipmunk** invites you to attend August's Chicago Python
> User Group meeting. ChiPy says, "This will be the best meet ever!"
>
> When
> ----
>
> Thursday August 9th 2007 7:00PM
>
> Cost
> ----
>
> Free
>
> Topics
> ------
>
> Snakes on Apples <http://chipy.org/SnakesOnApples> Developing Python
> on the Mac. All are welcome, no Macintosh, Unix, or Python experience
> required.
>
>   - TextMate with Python -- Kumar McMillan
>      + how to edit / navigate -- all the stuff that makes it
> comparable to emacs or whatnot (I'll keep this short)
>      + hack: how to write commands / Bundles to automate your coding
> needs
>   - Address Book Plugin for syncing with gmail contacts utilizing
> libgmail -- Brian Ray
>   - Python Sprint at Google and PyCon '08 updates / discussion
>   - After: If you wish, follow Chipy the Chipmunk to Greektown or
> Taylor Street
>
> Venue
> -----
>
> ::
>    The University of Illinois at Chicago
>    Science and Engineering Offices (SEO 1000)
>    851 South Morgan Street
>    Chicago, Illinois 60607
>
> (note: Emergency Cell 773 835 9876, if you get lost and need moral
> support)
>
> CTA
> ~~~
>
> FROM O'HARE AIRPORT BY CTA TRAIN: Take the CTA BLUE LINE TRAIN from
> O'Hare to the UIC-Halsted stop. Exit up
> stairs in center of the train platform (the platform also has two
> long ramps on either side heading East and West, which also
> can be used). Proceed South on street level to the UIC campus.
>
> FROM MIDWAY AIRPORT BY CTA TRAIN: Take the CTA ORANGE LINE TRAIN from
> Midway to the Clark/Lake station. Exit
> the train, GO DOWNSTAIRS and transfer to the CTA BLUE LINE. Take the
> Blue Line train towards 54/Cermak (Forest Park)
> and exit at the UIC-Halsted stop. Exit up stairs in center of the
> train platform (the platform also has two long ramps on either
> side heading East and West, which also can be used). Proceed South on
> street level to the UIC campus.
>
>
> Driving
> ~~~~~~~
>
> PARKING: Public parking is available via a four-level parking garage
> on the NE corner of Taylor & Halsted streets, and at
> the open parking lot on the SE corner of Taylor and Morgan streets.
> IF PARKING IN THE GARAGE, ENTER ON THE
> LEFT DRIVEWAY as you turn Nor th into the building, ensuring that you
> take a ticket. If parking in the open lot, enter
> through the Southern most driveway, the one that has the attendant
> booth.
>
> DRIVING FROM THE NORTH: Take 90/94 South (Kennedy Expressway) to the
> Taylor Street/Roosevelt Ave, Exit 52A.
> Keep to the right and turn right immediately onto Taylor Street. The
> entrance to the parking garage will be immediately to
> your right.
>
> FROM THE SOUTH: Take 90/94 Nor th (Dan Ryan Expressway). Pass to the
> far right lane and take the Roosevelt Ave exit,
> Exit 52B. Stay in the middle or far right lane and go straight
> through the first intersection, paralleling the expressway. Turn
> left onto Taylor Street. The entrance to the parking garage will be
> to your right.
>
> FROM THE WEST: Take 290 East (Eisenhower Expressway) to 90/94 South
> (Dan Ryan Expressway). Immediately exit to
> the right onto Taylor Street/Roosevelt Ave, Exit 52A. Stay to the
> right and turn right at the light onto Taylor Street. The
> entrance to the parking garage will be immediately to your right.
> FROM THE EAST: In the Loop area, take Harrison Street. Proceed west
> and turn left onto Halsted Street. Continue South
> on Halsted, turn left onto Taylor and left again into the parking
> garage.
>
>
> Food Donations
> --------------
>
> Roy Talman & Associate
>
>
> About ChiPy
> -----------
>
> ChiPy is a group of Chicago Python Programmers, l33t, and n00bs.
> Meetings are held monthly at various locations around Chicago.
> Also, ChiPy is a proud sponsor of many Open Source and Educational
> efforts in Chicago. Stay tuned to the mailing list for more info.
>
> ChiPy website: <http://chipy.org>
> ChiPy Mailing List: <http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago>
> Python website: <http://python.org>
>
> ** "ChiPy the Chipmunk" is a fictitious character. Any similarity to
> actual chipmunks, living or dead, is purely coincidental.
>
> ------
> _______________________________________________
> Chicago mailing list
> Chicago at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>

From john at phaedrusdeinus.org  Tue Aug  7 18:30:08 2007
From: john at phaedrusdeinus.org (John Melesky)
Date: Tue, 7 Aug 2007 11:30:08 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] ANN: ChiPy August Meeting Topic "Snakes On Apples"
In-Reply-To: <3096c19d0708070857y39ec02eckf6c8e5520d503339@mail.gmail.com>
References: <84A0B6FA-9DAE-48E9-B66C-F179D71F00ED@sent.com>
	<3096c19d0708070857y39ec02eckf6c8e5520d503339@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4EBA8D82-7CD3-4711-A08F-BE4D0C597C1A@phaedrusdeinus.org>

On Aug 7, 2007, at 10:57 AM, Chris McAvoy wrote:
> I can't be at the meeting this Thursday.  Baby Wil came this past
> Saturday morning.  He and his Mom are doing great.

Congratulations!


From fitz at red-bean.com  Wed Aug  8 17:59:44 2007
From: fitz at red-bean.com (Brian W. Fitzpatrick)
Date: Wed, 8 Aug 2007 10:59:44 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] Python sprint at Google
In-Reply-To: <FCE37267-F4D4-4CFF-8EE8-FAF9EB2EDE8B@sent.com>
References: <a5375ad50708042201h3c0b0736kf1a09d408ab71132@mail.gmail.com>
	<FCE37267-F4D4-4CFF-8EE8-FAF9EB2EDE8B@sent.com>
Message-ID: <a5375ad50708080859pbaac8f1ra83f420b958ef0f7@mail.gmail.com>

On 8/6/07, Brian Ray <bray at sent.com> wrote:
> On Aug 5, 2007, at 12:01 AM, Brian W. Fitzpatrick wrote:
>
> >
> >  http://wiki.python.org/moin/GoogleSprint
> >
>
> I would rather not show up at all than show up unprepared. I know
> from previous Sprints and because I know you guys, you do not always
> come prepared. I have been guilty of that, as well. I recommend that
> those who *do* Sprint really make an effort to come prepared.  The
> wiki defines this clearly. Just ask yourself, "am I prepared to a
> level where I can contribute to achieving the goal?"

Exactly-to be perfectly clear, this is *not* a sprint that's intended
for people to just show up to hang out. Participation and some
knowledge of the basic tools is always a good idea.  This includes,
for example:

* Having a Subversion Client loaded and the relevant sources checked out
* Having Python installed (not kidding--this has happened!)
* Participating and not just surfing the web

Even if someone just want to write docs, they should know how the
docs are written.  For the more advanced coders, reading the PEP for
Python 3000 is a major task.

-Fitz

From skip at pobox.com  Wed Aug  8 19:31:15 2007
From: skip at pobox.com (skip at pobox.com)
Date: Wed, 8 Aug 2007 12:31:15 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] Python sprint at Google
In-Reply-To: <a5375ad50708080859pbaac8f1ra83f420b958ef0f7@mail.gmail.com>
References: <a5375ad50708042201h3c0b0736kf1a09d408ab71132@mail.gmail.com>
	<FCE37267-F4D4-4CFF-8EE8-FAF9EB2EDE8B@sent.com>
	<a5375ad50708080859pbaac8f1ra83f420b958ef0f7@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <18105.64995.138214.82647@montanaro.dyndns.org>

    Brian> Exactly-to be perfectly clear, this is *not* a sprint that's
    Brian> intended for people to just show up to hang out. Participation
    Brian> and some knowledge of the basic tools is always a good idea.
    Brian> This includes, for example:

    Brian> * Having a Subversion Client loaded and the relevant sources
    Brian>   checked out 
    Brian> * Having Python installed (not kidding--this has happened!) 
    Brian> * Participating and not just surfing the web 

    Brian> Even if someone just want to write docs, they should know how the
    Brian> docs are written.  For the more advanced coders, reading the PEP
    Brian> for Python 3000 is a major task.

Given the main participants I suspect the primary focus will be on Python
3.  Some familiarity with that code base or its documentation (if that's
your thang) would be helpful.

Skip

From bray at sent.com  Wed Aug  8 21:53:35 2007
From: bray at sent.com (Brian Ray)
Date: Wed, 8 Aug 2007 14:53:35 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] Python 3000 and beyond
Message-ID: <EA9BB206-E09E-4C43-A748-E1076DA6211B@sent.com>


On Aug 8, 2007, at 12:31 PM, skip at pobox.com wrote:
> Given the main participants I suspect the primary focus will be on  
> Python
> 3.  Some familiarity with that code base or its documentation (if  
> that's
> your thang) would be helpful.

A note not related to the Sprint.

I have been reading through the PEPs (3000-3141)

   <http://svn.python.org/projects/peps/trunk/>
      or
   <http://www.python.org/dev/peps/>.

It may be fun to take a look at some of these during tomorrow's   
meeting. Any volunteers.

My favs are:

	Keyword-Only Arguments 3102
	Function Annotations 3107
         UTF-8 as default  3120
         Class Decorators 3129

Well actually I do not get Class Decorators yet, but I still like the  
idea.

BTW, about tomorrow meeting, will have some deep dish Pizza, so come  
hungry :D


Brian Ray
bray at sent.com
http://kazavoo.com/blog



From pfein at pobox.com  Thu Aug  9 23:36:22 2007
From: pfein at pobox.com (Pete)
Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2007 16:36:22 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] ANN: ChiPy August Meeting Topic "Snakes On Apples"
In-Reply-To: <84A0B6FA-9DAE-48E9-B66C-F179D71F00ED@sent.com>
References: <84A0B6FA-9DAE-48E9-B66C-F179D71F00ED@sent.com>
Message-ID: <200708091636.22770.pfein@pobox.com>

Heads up: I'd like to give a 5-minute lightning talk on "What to bring to a 
sprint". http://wiki.python.org/moin/GoogleSprint

On Sunday August 5 2007 10:41 pm, Brian Ray wrote:
> ChiPy the Chipmunk** invites you to attend August's Chicago Python
> User Group meeting. ChiPy says, "This will be the best meet ever!"
>
> When
> ----
>
> Thursday August 9th 2007 7:00PM
>
> Cost
> ----
>
> Free
>
> Topics
> ------
>
> Snakes on Apples <http://chipy.org/SnakesOnApples> Developing Python
> on the Mac. All are welcome, no Macintosh, Unix, or Python experience
> required.
>
>   - TextMate with Python -- Kumar McMillan
>      + how to edit / navigate -- all the stuff that makes it
> comparable to emacs or whatnot (I'll keep this short)
>      + hack: how to write commands / Bundles to automate your coding
> needs
>   - Address Book Plugin for syncing with gmail contacts utilizing
> libgmail -- Brian Ray
>   - Python Sprint at Google and PyCon '08 updates / discussion
>   - After: If you wish, follow Chipy the Chipmunk to Greektown or
> Taylor Street
>
> Venue
> -----
>
>
>    The University of Illinois at Chicago
>    Science and Engineering Offices (SEO 1000)
>    851 South Morgan Street
>    Chicago, Illinois 60607
>
> (note: Emergency Cell 773 835 9876, if you get lost and need moral
> support)
>
> CTA
> ~~~
>
> FROM O'HARE AIRPORT BY CTA TRAIN: Take the CTA BLUE LINE TRAIN from
> O'Hare to the UIC-Halsted stop. Exit up
> stairs in center of the train platform (the platform also has two
> long ramps on either side heading East and West, which also
> can be used). Proceed South on street level to the UIC campus.
>
> FROM MIDWAY AIRPORT BY CTA TRAIN: Take the CTA ORANGE LINE TRAIN from
> Midway to the Clark/Lake station. Exit
> the train, GO DOWNSTAIRS and transfer to the CTA BLUE LINE. Take the
> Blue Line train towards 54/Cermak (Forest Park)
> and exit at the UIC-Halsted stop. Exit up stairs in center of the
> train platform (the platform also has two long ramps on either
> side heading East and West, which also can be used). Proceed South on
> street level to the UIC campus.
>
>
> Driving
> ~~~~~~~
>
> PARKING: Public parking is available via a four-level parking garage
> on the NE corner of Taylor & Halsted streets, and at
> the open parking lot on the SE corner of Taylor and Morgan streets.
> IF PARKING IN THE GARAGE, ENTER ON THE
> LEFT DRIVEWAY as you turn Nor th into the building, ensuring that you
> take a ticket. If parking in the open lot, enter
> through the Southern most driveway, the one that has the attendant
> booth.
>
> DRIVING FROM THE NORTH: Take 90/94 South (Kennedy Expressway) to the
> Taylor Street/Roosevelt Ave, Exit 52A.
> Keep to the right and turn right immediately onto Taylor Street. The
> entrance to the parking garage will be immediately to
> your right.
>
> FROM THE SOUTH: Take 90/94 Nor th (Dan Ryan Expressway). Pass to the
> far right lane and take the Roosevelt Ave exit,
> Exit 52B. Stay in the middle or far right lane and go straight
> through the first intersection, paralleling the expressway. Turn
> left onto Taylor Street. The entrance to the parking garage will be
> to your right.
>
> FROM THE WEST: Take 290 East (Eisenhower Expressway) to 90/94 South
> (Dan Ryan Expressway). Immediately exit to
> the right onto Taylor Street/Roosevelt Ave, Exit 52A. Stay to the
> right and turn right at the light onto Taylor Street. The
> entrance to the parking garage will be immediately to your right.
> FROM THE EAST: In the Loop area, take Harrison Street. Proceed west
> and turn left onto Halsted Street. Continue South
> on Halsted, turn left onto Taylor and left again into the parking
> garage.
>
>
> Food Donations
> --------------
>
> Roy Talman & Associate
>
>
> About ChiPy
> -----------
>
> ChiPy is a group of Chicago Python Programmers, l33t, and n00bs.
> Meetings are held monthly at various locations around Chicago.
> Also, ChiPy is a proud sponsor of many Open Source and Educational
> efforts in Chicago. Stay tuned to the mailing list for more info.
>
> ChiPy website: <http://chipy.org>
> ChiPy Mailing List: <http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago>
> Python website: <http://python.org>
>
> ** "ChiPy the Chipmunk" is a fictitious character. Any similarity to
> actual chipmunks, living or dead, is purely coincidental.
>
> ------
> _______________________________________________
> Chicago mailing list
> Chicago at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago

-- 
Peter Fein   ||   773-575-0694   ||   pfein at pobox.com
http://www.pobox.com/~pfein/   ||   PGP: 0xCCF6AE6B
irc: pfein at freenode.net   ||   jabber: peter.fein at gmail.com

From szybalski at gmail.com  Fri Aug 10 20:46:11 2007
From: szybalski at gmail.com (Lukasz Szybalski)
Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2007 13:46:11 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] how to pass a dictionary to sqlobject
Message-ID: <804e5c70708101146l717688b2gffc172b83ad8ccc9@mail.gmail.com>

Hello,
I have a problem when Im trying to save a form. My form when submitted
gives me a a dictionary with field names and values.

If my sqlobject class is

class App(SQLObject):
   idName = "App_Sid"
   class sqlmeta:
       fromDatabase = True
       table="App"


How do i pass my dictionary kwargs={'App_Sid':1,'First_name':'lucas'} ????

Doing something like this:
App(**kwargs)

Gives me an error like:

File "c:\python25\lib\site-packages\SQLObject-0.9.0-py2.5.egg\sqlobject\col.py",
line 596, in from_python
   (self.name, type(value), value), value, state)
Invalid: expected an int in the IntCol 'APPSID', got <type 'str'> '' instead


How do you guys pass a list of key and values to sqlobject?

Thanks,
Lucas

From stephencrim at gmail.com  Sat Aug 11 15:51:16 2007
From: stephencrim at gmail.com (Stephen Crim)
Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2007 08:51:16 -0500
Subject: [Chicago]  how to pass a dictionary to sqlobject
Message-ID: <f77ec8090708110651n36577471s92e94e4b560759d@mail.gmail.com>

THe problem with your approach is that the standard __init__ method is
relied upon very heavily by SQLObject to split apart what you're
doing. You can't pass in a dict and just have the dict keys become
keyword arguments, even though the **arg actually does that. * and **
are special arguments that are only generated by python, keyword
arguments go into one bucket, non keyword arguments another. At least,
I don't know of a way to trick it into doing that without overriding a
bunch of other methods, which I try to avoid doing because I hate
straying too far from the path.

Your best option might be to override the __init__ method in
SQLObject, accepting *args, **kwargs as arguments, then parse out the
dict that's passed in as a member of args, the build out a call to
SQLObject.__init__( self, arg=val, arg=val) as a string which you can
exec().

here's how the args work:

>>> def argtest( *args, **kwargs ):
...   print args
...   print kwargs
...
>>> argtest({'a': 1, 'b': 2})
({'a': 1, 'b': 2},)
{}
>>> argtest({'a': 1, 'b': 2}, a=1, b=2)
({'a': 1, 'b': 2},)
{'a': 1, 'b': 2}
>>>

here's an example of the __init__method:
class MyClass (SQLObject):
    prop = IntCol()
    prop2 = IntCol()
    def __init__( self, *args, **kwargs ):
        d = [i for i in args if type(i) == type({})][0] # don't forget
to catch this exception
        l  = ['%s = %s' % (k, str(v)) for k,v in d.items()]
        s = "SQLObject.__init__(self, %s)" % ', '.join(l)
        exec(s) # this will call the __init__  method and actually
build your functions

then you should be able to call MyClass({'prop': 1, 'prop2': 2}). Be
wary of the squashing to a string that happens, and do take care to do
proper argument validation before relying on this in a publicly
accessible system. I haven't tested this approach with SQLObject, but
i know that __init__ does some voodoo, so you may need to use a helper
function to accomplish this instead and leave your class defs as they
exist.

Hope that helps!

Stephen

> Message: 1
> Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2007 13:46:11 -0500
> From: "Lukasz Szybalski" <szybalski at gmail.com>
> Subject: [Chicago] how to pass a dictionary to sqlobject
> To: "The Chicago Python Users Group" <chicago at python.org>
> Message-ID:
>         <804e5c70708101146l717688b2gffc172b83ad8ccc9 at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
>
> Hello,
> I have a problem when Im trying to save a form. My form when submitted
> gives me a a dictionary with field names and values.
>
> If my sqlobject class is
>
> class App(SQLObject):
>    idName = "App_Sid"
>    class sqlmeta:
>        fromDatabase = True
>        table="App"
>
>
> How do i pass my dictionary kwargs={'App_Sid':1,'First_name':'lucas'} ????
>
> Doing something like this:
> App(**kwargs)
>
> Gives me an error like:
>
> File "c:\python25\lib\site-packages\SQLObject-0.9.0-py2.5.egg\sqlobject\col.py",
> line 596, in from_python
>    (self.name, type(value), value), value, state)
> Invalid: expected an int in the IntCol 'APPSID', got <type 'str'> '' instead
>
>
> How do you guys pass a list of key and values to sqlobject?
>
> Thanks,
> Lucas
>

From skip at pobox.com  Mon Aug 13 19:26:46 2007
From: skip at pobox.com (skip at pobox.com)
Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2007 12:26:46 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] Sign up for Google Sprint
Message-ID: <18112.37974.124051.186733@montanaro.dyndns.org>

If you plan to attend the Chicago branch of the Google Sprint, add your name
to the relevant table on this wiki page:

    http://wiki.python.org/moin/GoogleSprint

Skip

From matt_dorn at yahoo.com  Mon Aug 13 21:38:15 2007
From: matt_dorn at yahoo.com (Matt Dorn)
Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2007 12:38:15 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Chicago] graphic designers
Message-ID: <84430.35928.qm@web53507.mail.re2.yahoo.com>

I've got a Chicago-based project in need of an XHTML/CSS-savvy
graphic designer.  It's a Django-based site with a number of
social networking/community features (looking for an overall
"Web 2.0"-type simplicity to the design), so I thought a posting
to the list here might turn up some recommendations from
developers who may have worked with designers on such a project.

Any suggestions, drop me a line.

Thanks,

Matt

From pfein at pobox.com  Mon Aug 13 21:55:21 2007
From: pfein at pobox.com (Pete)
Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2007 14:55:21 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] Sign up for Google Sprint
In-Reply-To: <18112.37974.124051.186733@montanaro.dyndns.org>
References: <18112.37974.124051.186733@montanaro.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <200708131455.21588.pfein@pobox.com>

On Monday August 13 2007 12:26 pm, skip at pobox.com wrote:
> If you plan to attend the Chicago branch of the Google Sprint, add your
> name to the relevant table on this wiki page:
>
>     http://wiki.python.org/moin/GoogleSprint

If you are parachuting in, look for Harry Caray: http://tinyurl.com/22xk4a

If folks are only going to show up for 2 days, say, would it be better to do 
that all or once or staggered?

-- 
Peter Fein   ||   773-575-0694   ||   pfein at pobox.com
http://www.pobox.com/~pfein/   ||   PGP: 0xCCF6AE6B
irc: pfein at freenode.net   ||   jabber: peter.fein at gmail.com

From ken at stox.org  Tue Aug 14 17:17:06 2007
From: ken at stox.org (Kenneth P. Stox)
Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2007 10:17:06 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] Spock invites
Message-ID: <1187104626.26722.37.camel@stox.dyndns.org>

If anyone is interested, drop me a note. I've got a pile of them.


From krschacht at gmail.com  Mon Aug 13 18:45:55 2007
From: krschacht at gmail.com (Keith Schacht)
Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2007 11:45:55 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] Facebook Developer Meetup - 8/18
Message-ID: <004401c7ddc9$6bc8df80$6501a8c0@DELLI>

Next weekend a member of the Facebook Platform Team will be in Chicago to
introduce the Platform and answer questions. Please join us to share ideas,
troll for partners on your latest project, check out app demonstrations,
seek developer support direct from Facebook Developers, or just socialize
with people like you.

 
Members of the Facebook Platform Team will give an introduction to Platform,
discuss best practices around product design & viral marketing techniques,
and hold a technical Q&A. Plus other talks on monetizing FB apps, lessons
learned, and more. Free snacks, lunch, and drinks/beer will be provided.

Details: http://www.facebookchicago.com <http://www.facebookchicago.com/> 
 
RSVP at http://www.facebook.com/event.php?eid=2642140688

 
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From dpratt at roytalman.com  Mon Aug 13 22:31:40 2007
From: dpratt at roytalman.com (Pratt, Doug)
Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2007 15:31:40 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] Pizza providers update
Message-ID: <FBE61B6C5FE02547BBA6A1B324F2D6835A9BF5@portalserver2k6.roytalman.com>

Thanks for letting me join the ChiPy meeting and provide pizza for the
masses. If you're interested in Jobs, here's a list of some of the "hot"
jobs at Roy Talman. If you want a complete list of current job openings
visit our website:
 
http://www.roytalman.com <http://www.roytalman.com> 
 
Doug Pratt
 
IT Executive Recruiter
Roy Talman & Associates
150 S. Wacker Dr. Suite 1300
Chicago IL 60606
Phone: 312-425-1313 x 131
Fax: 312-425-0100
dpratt at roytalman.com <mailto:dpratt at roytalman.com> 
www.roytalman.com
 
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From krschacht at gmail.com  Tue Aug 14 01:45:46 2007
From: krschacht at gmail.com (Keith Schacht)
Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2007 18:45:46 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] Facebook Developer Meetup - 8/18
Message-ID: <004f01c7de04$128092c0$6501a8c0@DELLI>

Next weekend a member of the Facebook Platform Team will be in Chicago to
introduce the Platform and answer questions. Please join us to share ideas,
troll for partners on your latest project, check out app demonstrations,
seek developer support direct from Facebook Developers, or just socialize
with people like you.

 
Members of the Facebook Platform Team will give an introduction to Platform,
discuss best practices around product design & viral marketing techniques,
and hold a technical Q&A. Plus other talks on monetizing FB apps, lessons
learned, and more. Free snacks, lunch, and drinks/beer will be provided.

Details: http://www.facebookchicago.com <http://www.facebookchicago.com/> 
 
RSVP at http://www.facebook.com/event.php?eid=2642140688

 
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From pfein at pobox.com  Thu Aug 16 19:56:35 2007
From: pfein at pobox.com (Pete)
Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2007 12:56:35 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] Pizza providers update
In-Reply-To: <FBE61B6C5FE02547BBA6A1B324F2D6835A9BF5@portalserver2k6.roytalman.com>
References: <FBE61B6C5FE02547BBA6A1B324F2D6835A9BF5@portalserver2k6.roytalman.com>
Message-ID: <200708161256.36564.pfein@pobox.com>

On Monday August 13 2007 3:31 pm, Pratt, Doug wrote:
> Thanks for letting me join the ChiPy meeting and provide pizza for the

While I didn't make the meeting, I'm sure the food was consumed 
appreciatively.

> masses. If you're interested in Jobs, here's a list of some of the "hot"
> jobs at Roy Talman. If you want a complete list of current job openings
> visit our website:

The attached file msword, -1) doesn't even contain the word 'python'.  Please 
don't waste our time.

-- 
Peter Fein   ||   773-575-0694   ||   pfein at pobox.com
http://www.pobox.com/~pfein/   ||   PGP: 0xCCF6AE6B
irc: pfein at freenode.net   ||   jabber: peter.fein at gmail.com

From Marty.Murphy at na.manpower.com  Thu Aug 16 20:16:55 2007
From: Marty.Murphy at na.manpower.com (Marty.Murphy at na.manpower.com)
Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2007 13:16:55 -0500
Subject: [Chicago]  Sr. Python Engineer - Full Time Perm opportunity
Message-ID: <OF5086DA6D.E2DE8276-ON86257339.00643B1D-86257339.00646D57@na.manpower.com>

Dear Python Developers,

I am recruiting for a talented Sr. Python Developer.  Please contact me if 
you, or someone you know may be qualified and interested in the following 
opportunity.  Thank you! 

Marty Murphy
Professional Placement Consultant

Manpower Professional
20 N. Wacker Dr Suite 3030
Chicago, Illinois 60606  USA
T: +1 312.263.3907
F: +1 312.263.5628 
C: +1 312.848.9843
 www.manpowerprofessional.com 

Sr. Software Engineer - Python - Chicago North Shore (Full Time Permanent) 

Role: 
This position will be responsible for the architecture, design, 
development and unit testing of new features and feature extensions 
required of the application. Additionally there are opportunities to lead 
functional requirements discussions regarding the evolution of the 
application. 
Technology skills include: 
Well-rounded technical skill set, and experience developing complex, high 
volume business systems. 
Architect and systems development experience. 
Web application programming in Python. 
Application development using Linux, Apache, Webware, SQLObject, 
Reportlab, and J2EE technologies. 
Database programming with PostgreSQL, DB2, and Oracle. 
Web services and enterprise application integration experience. 
Business process focused systems experience. 
Performance analysis and improvement.   
Qualifications: 
BA/BS in CS or equivalent experience. 
A minimum of five years of software development experience, using formal 
development methods. 
Experience developing robust, secure, scalable, high volume, 
commercial-grade web applications. 
Financial and business workflow development experience. 
Expertise with all phases of the software development lifecycle, including 
requirements analysis, design, coding, testing, implementation, and 
support. 
Excellent verbal and written communication skills. 
Skills working in a collaborative team environment. 
 You can expect a fast-paced, fun, and challenging work environment, great 
people to work with, a competitive salary commensurate with experience, 
and significant bonus potential. 
________________________________________________________________________
This e-mail and its attachments may contain Manpower Inc. proprietary 
information, which is PRIVILEGED, CONFIDENTIAL, or subject to COPYRIGHT 
belonging to Manpower Inc. This e-mail is intended solely for the use of 
the individual or entity to which it is addressed. If you are not the 
intended recipient of this e-mail, or the employee or agent responsible 
for delivering this e-mail to the intended recipient, you are hereby 
notified that any dissemination, distribution, copying, or action taken in 
relation to the contents of and attachments to this e-mail is STRICTLY 
PROHIBITED and may be UNLAWFUL. If you have received this e-mail in error, 
please notify the sender immediately and permanently delete the original 
and any copy of this e-mail and any printout. Thank you.

______________________________________________________________________
This email has been scanned by the MessageLabs Email Security System.
For more information please visit http://www.messagelabs.com/email 
______________________________________________________________________

______________________________________________________________________
This email has been scanned by the MessageLabs Email Security System.
For more information please visit http://www.messagelabs.com/email 
______________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________
Chicago mailing list
Chicago at python.org
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago


________________________________________________________________________
This e-mail and its attachments may contain Manpower Inc. proprietary information, which is PRIVILEGED, CONFIDENTIAL, or subject to COPYRIGHT belonging to Manpower Inc.  This e-mail is intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to which it is addressed.  If you are not the intended recipient of this e-mail, or the employee or agent responsible for delivering this e-mail to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, copying, or action taken in relation to the contents of and attachments to this e-mail is STRICTLY PROHIBITED and may be UNLAWFUL.  If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender immediately and permanently delete the original and any copy of this e-mail and any printout.  Thank you.

______________________________________________________________________
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From dpratt at roytalman.com  Thu Aug 16 22:52:26 2007
From: dpratt at roytalman.com (Pratt, Doug)
Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2007 15:52:26 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] Pizza providers update
Message-ID: <FBE61B6C5FE02547BBA6A1B324F2D6835A9EF2@portalserver2k6.roytalman.com>

Pete,

The pizzas were scoffed in their entirety. Hardly a crumb left behind. We're
happy to help starving developers.

Doug 

IT Executive Recruiter
Roy Talman & Associates
150 S. Wacker Dr. Suite 1300
Chicago IL 60606
Phone: 312-425-1313 x 131
Fax: 312-425-0100
dpratt at roytalman.com
www.roytalman.com

-----Original Message-----
From: Pete [mailto:pfein at pobox.com] 
Sent: Thursday, August 16, 2007 12:57 PM
To: The Chicago Python Users Group
Subject: Re: [Chicago] Pizza providers update

On Monday August 13 2007 3:31 pm, Pratt, Doug wrote:
> Thanks for letting me join the ChiPy meeting and provide pizza for the

While I didn't make the meeting, I'm sure the food was consumed
appreciatively.

> masses. If you're interested in Jobs, here's a list of some of the "hot"
> jobs at Roy Talman. If you want a complete list of current job 
> openings visit our website:

The attached file msword, -1) doesn't even contain the word 'python'.
Please don't waste our time.

-- 
Peter Fein   ||   773-575-0694   ||   pfein at pobox.com
http://www.pobox.com/~pfein/   ||   PGP: 0xCCF6AE6B
irc: pfein at freenode.net   ||   jabber: peter.fein at gmail.com
_______________________________________________
Chicago mailing list
Chicago at python.org
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago

From ken at stox.org  Thu Aug 16 23:26:16 2007
From: ken at stox.org (Kenneth P. Stox)
Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2007 16:26:16 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] Pizza providers update
In-Reply-To: <FBE61B6C5FE02547BBA6A1B324F2D6835A9EF2@portalserver2k6.roytalman.com>
References: <FBE61B6C5FE02547BBA6A1B324F2D6835A9EF2@portalserver2k6.roytalman.com>
Message-ID: <1187299576.7766.60.camel@stox.dyndns.org>

On Thu, 2007-08-16 at 15:52 -0500, Pratt, Doug wrote:
> Pete,
> 
> The pizzas were scoffed in their entirety. Hardly a crumb left behind. We're
> happy to help starving developers.

Doug:
	You failed to address the second part of Pete's comment. Your job
listing document does not include a single python related job. Posting
of non-python related jobs are not welcome on this list. Buying pizza,
although generous, does not entitle you to violate these rules. 

	In addition, posting MS-Word documents to open source mailing lists is
a sure fire way to lose credibility. It only takes a few moments to
transform the document into an open format. A recruiter that recognizes
open source, and uses it, will have far more respect in the community.

-Ken Stox
 ken at stox.org

P.S. If anyone thinks my comments are out of line, and/or do not reflect
the community, please don't hesitate to say so.


From bray at sent.com  Thu Aug 16 23:31:11 2007
From: bray at sent.com (Brian Ray)
Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2007 16:31:11 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] Pizza providers update
In-Reply-To: <FBE61B6C5FE02547BBA6A1B324F2D6835A9EF2@portalserver2k6.roytalman.com>
References: <FBE61B6C5FE02547BBA6A1B324F2D6835A9EF2@portalserver2k6.roytalman.com>
Message-ID: <EB7FA3B5-0959-4101-85F8-9CD59D373E78@sent.com>


On Aug 16, 2007, at 3:52 PM, Pratt, Doug wrote:

>
> The pizzas were scoffed in their entirety. Hardly a crumb left  
> behind. We're
> happy to help starving developers.

I can confirm this. The several Chicago deep dish and regular pizza's  
were eaten and much appreciated.  Doug was present and stayed for the  
whole meeting. I ate some pizza and have a stain on my shirt to prove.

I can also vouch for Roy Talman as being quality.  While I am not  
sure the majority of jobs today will explicitly state they want  
Python, I am sure they run across some Python jobs from time to time.  
Likewise, I firmly believe Python is slowly becoming acceptable for a  
broader range of professional development roles. On the other hand,  
we never wanted Python to be a gold rush and then forgotten.

Still, I too often hear how hard it is for potential employers to  
find quality Python candidates. Either we are too comfortable where  
we are at or too lazy to send out our resumes.  Then there is the  
case where we want to share the interest in Python in a not-totally- 
sold-on-Python place. Yet, how many of you have helped your  
organizations migrate to Python? My understanding is quite a few.

I suggest you send Roy Talman your resume even if you do not fit any  
of the current jobs. At least they will have a larger pool when  
Python jobs appear. Their jobs are usually top notch.

Brian Ray
bray at sent.com
http://kazavoo.com/blog



From dpratt at roytalman.com  Thu Aug 16 23:41:08 2007
From: dpratt at roytalman.com (Pratt, Doug)
Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2007 16:41:08 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] Guilty as charged
Message-ID: <FBE61B6C5FE02547BBA6A1B324F2D6835A9F0F@portalserver2k6.roytalman.com>

In response to Ken and Pete:
 
I appreciate that I violated your sensibilities and apologize. I will
restrict future posting to Python roles and Open source file formats.
 
Doug
 
IT Executive Recruiter
Roy Talman & Associates
150 S. Wacker Dr. Suite 1300
Chicago IL 60606
Phone: 312-425-1313 x 131
Fax: 312-425-0100
dpratt at roytalman.com <mailto:dpratt at roytalman.com> 
www.roytalman.com
 
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From bray at sent.com  Thu Aug 16 23:43:18 2007
From: bray at sent.com (Brian Ray)
Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2007 16:43:18 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] Pizza providers update
In-Reply-To: <1187299576.7766.60.camel@stox.dyndns.org>
References: <FBE61B6C5FE02547BBA6A1B324F2D6835A9EF2@portalserver2k6.roytalman.com>
	<1187299576.7766.60.camel@stox.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <3F9A667F-EA1F-49BA-8BD5-FCF28C694D7E@sent.com>


On Aug 16, 2007, at 4:26 PM, Kenneth P. Stox wrote:
>
> P.S. If anyone thinks my comments are out of line, and/or do not  
> reflect
> the community, please don't hesitate to say so.

I just read your complaint after I sent my initial response.

I think its totally cool that you comment. I have been caught  
complaining about the way people solicit this list before. in fact I  
did so in July:

<http://mail.python.org/pipermail/chicago/2007-July/002321.html>

Ken, I recall you bought us Pizza before. Yet, I have not seen you  
for awhile. Likewise, its my understanding you too are looking for  
Python Developers. Is this correct?

I agree, unless implied (which may be the case in this special  
situation), Python must be a requirement for job postings here. Also,  
the message should be plain text.

Overall, I still do not have a problem with people posting Python  
related jobs here. Just my $.02. Nevertheless, lets take it easy on  
those who help sponsor our meeting. ok?

Brian Ray
bray at sent.com
http://kazavoo.com/blog



From ken at stox.org  Fri Aug 17 00:10:30 2007
From: ken at stox.org (Kenneth P. Stox)
Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2007 17:10:30 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] Guilty as charged
In-Reply-To: <FBE61B6C5FE02547BBA6A1B324F2D6835A9F0F@portalserver2k6.roytalman.com>
References: <FBE61B6C5FE02547BBA6A1B324F2D6835A9F0F@portalserver2k6.roytalman.com>
Message-ID: <1187302230.7766.64.camel@stox.dyndns.org>

On Thu, 2007-08-16 at 16:41 -0500, Pratt, Doug wrote:
> In response to Ken and Pete:
>  
> I appreciate that I violated your sensibilities and apologize. I will
> restrict future posting to Python roles and Open source file formats.

Thank you very much Doug. I hope your efforts are very successful. 



From kumar.mcmillan at gmail.com  Fri Aug 17 00:36:29 2007
From: kumar.mcmillan at gmail.com (Kumar McMillan)
Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2007 17:36:29 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] Pizza providers update
In-Reply-To: <3F9A667F-EA1F-49BA-8BD5-FCF28C694D7E@sent.com>
References: <FBE61B6C5FE02547BBA6A1B324F2D6835A9EF2@portalserver2k6.roytalman.com>
	<1187299576.7766.60.camel@stox.dyndns.org>
	<3F9A667F-EA1F-49BA-8BD5-FCF28C694D7E@sent.com>
Message-ID: <b571660a0708161536i3aeb8d27y80ef3ddaca9347d7@mail.gmail.com>

On 8/16/07, Brian Ray <bray at sent.com> wrote:
> Overall, I still do not have a problem with people posting Python
> related jobs here. Just my $.02. Nevertheless, lets take it easy on
> those who help sponsor our meeting. ok?

this may be worth pointing out ... the company I'm at
(leapfrogonline.com) has worked with Roy Talman way way back in
ancient times.  Had it not been for Doug graciously providing free
pizza and pitching Roy Talman services at the meeting, then we would
not have known that they are now beginning to provide contractors for
open source jobs.  They certainly were not in the past.  This is
excellent news for us since it is very hard to find Python developers
in Chicago (btw, we're hiring!
http://www.leapfrogonline.com/who/careers.php ).

In fact, I'm not kidding here, but we recently had to mandate that
front-end web development be limited to RUBY because the resources we
can find are greater in the Ruby dept than in Python.  This is sort of
sad because we'd rather use Python for these things.

It doesn't help to push people away who are trying to move into the
open source field.  I think it was pretty obvious from Doug's first
post that it wasn't spam.  It may be that Roy Talman is still in early
stages of being able to support Python resources, but they are
certainly *trying* and this list is a great place to start!  There are
a lot of talented developers on this list.

-Kumar

PS. if you use gmail then you get a nifty "view as HTML" link for Word
docs.  Just sayin

From mdipierro at cti.depaul.edu  Fri Aug 17 14:27:11 2007
From: mdipierro at cti.depaul.edu (Massimo Di Pierro)
Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2007 07:27:11 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] Web Frameworks?
Message-ID: <979B6115-A1DB-4E0F-904A-F5D619C27EDB@cti.depaul.edu>

Hello everybody,

as you know I teach web development with Python at DePaul and I would  
like to share my views on Django, Turbogears, Pylons, etc.

About the database-access API:

The Django API are better than SQLObjects and SQLAlchemy. They would  
be even better if they could take advantage of the ?>=? syntax (like  
SQLObjects) instead of the __gt syntax. SQLAlchemy goes in the wrong  
direction by making life too difficult for the developer. Teaching  
SQLAlchemy would be as difficult as teaching SQL. Storm.Canonical API  
seems even better than Django's API.

About template languages:

Kid/Genshi are the best. Students know XML therefore Kid is easy for  
them. Moreover it is the only template language that forces users to  
use write good XML. We teach students that they should use XML for  
nearly all web data exchange therefore Kid is perfect.

About Urls and Routes:

I do not like Django urls.py because they go in the direction of  
duplicating information instead of forcing users to follow good  
practice. For example, if I change name to a controller I also need  
to edit urls.py and vice versa; moreover I can have a form action  
with a different name than the name of the corresponding controller.  
This is very confusing to students. CherryPy and RoR instead enforce  
good practice. The ability to match arbitrary URLs should be optional  
and specified at the level of the controller (perhaps with a decorator).

WSGI and mod_python:

WSGI is an excellent idea but if it does not work with mod_python it  
is useless today. mod_python is faster, easier to deploy, and does  
not require advanced Apache knowledge. mod_rewrite is  difficult and  
way beyond the scope of a typical web development course.

Forms:

There is a perfect language for creating forms: HTML+CSS! Students  
know how to do it. Widgets add too much structure and will never be  
as flexible as HTML+CSS. WebHelpers are the best way to go. Pylons  
has them but they are not well documented and therefore unusable.  
WebHelpers should also generate javascript code for client-based  
validation (although this should not be a replacement for server-side  
validation).

Debugging

Pylons seems to be better than Django and Django is better than  
Turbogears (CherryPy).
Anyway, there should not be a debug ON/OFF setting. There should be a  
standard error page that allows login as administrator. If  
administrator is logged in he/she can see the debug information. If a  
user gets an error page, the error should be logged and the  
administrator should be contacted.

Django Generic Views, Turbogears Identity, etc.:

Django generic views are useful and so are Turbogears identity and  
registration but, these are optional features. They should be  
implemented as a set of advanced API to be used inside the  
controller. Otherwise there is too much magic going on.

General design issues:

There should be a single configuration file for the database (that  
defaults to SQLlite) and for email settings, like in TurboGears.
Sessions should always be on and should always be file based.
Page caching a la Django is a good idea and should be available as an  
optional feature via decorators.
There should be a small set of core API accessible via a single  
module. Django, for example, has too many modules and remembering  
which contains what is a major task.

The bottom line:

There is too much choice in the world of Pyhon web frameworks (and  
too many of them are 0.x) and this prevent us from making the case  
for each one of them against the Java dinosaur frameworks.

I have to teach this stuff therefore I can help the Python community  
to market their products. So far I have only covered Django in my  
classes because it is the only stable one and I was able to get the  
United Nations to use it. Nevertheless I am still waiting for the  
community come up with a real J2EE killer.

What I encourage you to do:

1)	Keep in mind that too much choice is bad, not good
2)	Do not reinvent the wheel
3)	Keep the API stable, work on improving implementation and  
documentation
4)	Have one person in change of usability and one in charge of security
5)	Focus on a single framework (I suggest Pylons + Genshi +  
WebHelpers + Django or Canonical ORM) that works with mod_python,  
defaults to SQLlite and has sessions on by default. You already have  
all the pieces... just put package them well.
6)	Make sure the ORM works with Oracle
7)	Write API for Generic View, Login/Logout and Registration
8)	Write documentation...
9)	Write documentation...
10)	Write documentation...

You make this and I guarantee it will be used in a course at DePaul  
in the winter quarter.

Massimo










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From nerkles at gmail.com  Fri Aug 17 16:52:07 2007
From: nerkles at gmail.com (isaac)
Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2007 09:52:07 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] Web Frameworks?
In-Reply-To: <979B6115-A1DB-4E0F-904A-F5D619C27EDB@cti.depaul.edu>
References: <979B6115-A1DB-4E0F-904A-F5D619C27EDB@cti.depaul.edu>
Message-ID: <57427b5b0708170752pc2b4ee6k373ffa35b4c934b8@mail.gmail.com>

Massimo,

This addresses one part of your concerns...

Have you seen Elixir?  http://elixir.ematia.de/

The current release is already fantastic for most projects, and they
have more amazing stuff coming in 0.4.

It's not a full web framework, but it can replace SQLObject or other
ORMs. It actually sits on top of SQLAlchemy and just gives you a much
simpler syntax to create models.

A simple example model:

class Person(Entity):
    has_field('name', Unicode(255))

    has_many('addresses', of_kind='Address')


class Address(Entity):
    has_field('email', String(128))

    belongs_to('person', of_kind='Person')

Anyway, it's worth a look.

I'd also urge you to teach Genshi over Kid, its performance is better
and it's much easier to debug your templates (you usually get a
sensible traceback like "mismatched tag", whereas you almost never get
a useful clue from Kid).

--Isaac

From damien at grassart.com  Fri Aug 17 17:23:25 2007
From: damien at grassart.com (Damien Grassart)
Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2007 10:23:25 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] Web Frameworks?
In-Reply-To: <979B6115-A1DB-4E0F-904A-F5D619C27EDB@cti.depaul.edu>
References: <979B6115-A1DB-4E0F-904A-F5D619C27EDB@cti.depaul.edu>
Message-ID: <dfe3933e0708170823r6bcd5606k25456bc7f0765ac6@mail.gmail.com>

On 8/17/07, Massimo Di Pierro <mdipierro at cti.depaul.edu> wrote:
>
> WSGI is an excellent idea but if it does not work with mod_python it is
> useless today. mod_python is faster, easier to deploy, and does not require
> advanced Apache knowledge. mod_rewrite is  difficult and way beyond the
> scope of a typical web development course.
>

Have you checked out mod_wsgi? I've heard good things about it and it just
passed 1.0 milestone: http://www.modwsgi.org/

-Damien
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From lmatteis at gmail.com  Fri Aug 17 17:46:40 2007
From: lmatteis at gmail.com (Luca Matteis)
Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2007 10:46:40 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] Web Frameworks?
In-Reply-To: <979B6115-A1DB-4E0F-904A-F5D619C27EDB@cti.depaul.edu>
References: <979B6115-A1DB-4E0F-904A-F5D619C27EDB@cti.depaul.edu>
Message-ID: <1187365600.6461.3.camel@localhost>

Have you ever tried web.py?
There's a great quote on their website:
"Think about the ideal way to write a web app.
Write the code to make it happen."


On Fri, 2007-08-17 at 07:27 -0500, Massimo Di Pierro wrote:
> Hello everybody,
> 
> 
> as you know I teach web development with Python at DePaul and I would
> like to share my views on Django, Turbogears, Pylons, etc.
> 
> 
> About the database-access API:
> 
> 
> The Django API are better than SQLObjects and SQLAlchemy. They would
> be even better if they could take advantage of the ?>=? syntax (like
> SQLObjects) instead of the __gt syntax. SQLAlchemy goes in the wrong
> direction by making life too difficult for the developer. Teaching
> SQLAlchemy would be as difficult as teaching SQL. Storm.Canonical API
> seems even better than Django's API.
> 
> 
> About template languages:
> 
> 
> Kid/Genshi are the best. Students know XML therefore Kid is easy for
> them. Moreover it is the only template language that forces users to
> use write good XML. We teach students that they should use XML for
> nearly all web data exchange therefore Kid is perfect.
> 
> 
> About Urls and Routes:
> 
> 
> I do not like Django urls.py because they go in the direction of
> duplicating information instead of forcing users to follow good
> practice. For example, if I change name to a controller I also need to
> edit urls.py and vice versa; moreover I can have a form action with a
> different name than the name of the corresponding controller. This is
> very confusing to students. CherryPy and RoR instead enforce good
> practice. The ability to match arbitrary URLs should be optional and
> specified at the level of the controller (perhaps with a decorator).
> 
> 
> WSGI and mod_python:
> 
> 
> WSGI is an excellent idea but if it does not work with mod_python it
> is useless today. mod_python is faster, easier to deploy, and does not
> require advanced Apache knowledge. mod_rewrite is  difficult and way
> beyond the scope of a typical web development course.
> 
> 
> Forms:
> 
> 
> There is a perfect language for creating forms: HTML+CSS! Students
> know how to do it. Widgets add too much structure and will never be as
> flexible as HTML+CSS. WebHelpers are the best way to go. Pylons has
> them but they are not well documented and therefore unusable.
> WebHelpers should also generate javascript code for client-based
> validation (although this should not be a replacement for server-side
> validation).
> 
> 
> Debugging
> 
> 
> Pylons seems to be better than Django and Django is better than
> Turbogears (CherryPy).
> Anyway, there should not be a debug ON/OFF setting. There should be a
> standard error page that allows login as administrator. If
> administrator is logged in he/she can see the debug information. If a
> user gets an error page, the error should be logged and the
> administrator should be contacted.
> 
> 
> Django Generic Views, Turbogears Identity, etc.:
> 
> 
> Django generic views are useful and so are Turbogears identity and
> registration but, these are optional features. They should be
> implemented as a set of advanced API to be used inside the controller.
> Otherwise there is too much magic going on.
> 
> 
> General design issues:
> 
> 
> There should be a single configuration file for the database (that
> defaults to SQLlite) and for email settings, like in TurboGears.
> Sessions should always be on and should always be file based. 
> Page caching a la Django is a good idea and should be available as an
> optional feature via decorators.
> There should be a small set of core API accessible via a single
> module. Django, for example, has too many modules and remembering
> which contains what is a major task.
> 
> 
> The bottom line:
> 
> 
> There is too much choice in the world of Pyhon web frameworks (and too
> many of them are 0.x) and this prevent us from making the case for
> each one of them against the Java dinosaur frameworks.
> 
> 
> I have to teach this stuff therefore I can help the Python community
> to market their products. So far I have only covered Django in my
> classes because it is the only stable one and I was able to get the
> United Nations to use it. Nevertheless I am still waiting for the
> community come up with a real J2EE killer.
> 
> 
> What I encourage you to do:
> 
> 
> 1) Keep in mind that too much choice is bad, not good
> 2) Do not reinvent the wheel
> 3) Keep the API stable, work on improving implementation and
> documentation 
> 4) Have one person in change of usability and one in charge of
> security
> 5) Focus on a single framework (I suggest Pylons + Genshi + WebHelpers
> + Django or Canonical ORM) that works with mod_python, defaults to
> SQLlite and has sessions on by default. You already have all the
> pieces... just put package them well.
> 6) Make sure the ORM works with Oracle
> 7) Write API for Generic View, Login/Logout and Registration
> 8) Write documentation...
> 9) Write documentation...
> 10) Write documentation...
> 
> 
> You make this and I guarantee it will be used in a course at DePaul in
> the winter quarter.
> 
> 
> Massimo
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Chicago mailing list
> Chicago at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago


From fitz at red-bean.com  Fri Aug 17 18:09:28 2007
From: fitz at red-bean.com (Brian W. Fitzpatrick)
Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2007 11:09:28 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] Sign up for Google Sprint
In-Reply-To: <18112.37974.124051.186733@montanaro.dyndns.org>
References: <18112.37974.124051.186733@montanaro.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <a5375ad50708170909u59f3aa13j75299739909d7ad4@mail.gmail.com>

Last chance.  Sign up soon or you won't be able to get into the building :-)

-Fitz

On 8/13/07, skip at pobox.com <skip at pobox.com> wrote:
> If you plan to attend the Chicago branch of the Google Sprint, add your name
> to the relevant table on this wiki page:
>
>     http://wiki.python.org/moin/GoogleSprint
>
> Skip
> _______________________________________________
> Chicago mailing list
> Chicago at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>
>

From andrew at humanized.com  Fri Aug 17 18:14:04 2007
From: andrew at humanized.com (Andrew Wilson)
Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2007 11:14:04 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] Collaborative Editors, was Re: code review tools
In-Reply-To: <c1b1d8150707241648o4c5f4ffcgeac9439e75ff3ba4@mail.gmail.com>
References: <a68ced640707220608g7fec4e38xf6c1f6c5c76e3745@mail.gmail.com>
	<2EF3D977-9A60-40A0-B612-A9CD70E56EFB@sent.com>
	<AFDC959B-D11D-451A-866F-1AC6E69A848C@sent.com>
	<200707241001.24519.pfein@pobox.com>
	<6ywswpltpo.fsf@moretomore.rd.imagescape.com>
	<c1b1d8150707241004p2feb9a1cl53a6355b16e0e6f1@mail.gmail.com>
	<1ff0fe40707241353v73f61f5dmfb1bb250851067de@mail.gmail.com>
	<1ff0fe40707241421k699e1198tea37548e124ed1df@mail.gmail.com>
	<c1b1d8150707241648o4c5f4ffcgeac9439e75ff3ba4@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <c1b1d8150708170914i1b8c60d8g25164fdf7a06afd8@mail.gmail.com>

Soory to take so long, and hope it's not too far off topic. I did write
something up on how our use of MoonEdit changed:

http://www.humanized.com/weblog/2007/08/16/moonedit-redux/

Enjoy!
-- Andrew

On 7/24/07, Andrew Wilson <andrew at humanized.com> wrote:
>
> Luke:
>
> You ask a very interesting question. So interesting that I'm working up a
> "MoonEdit: Redux" article for our blog. I'll post a link here when I'm
> done.
>
> -- Andrew
>
>
> On 7/24/07, Luke Opperman <loppear at gmail.com > wrote:
>
> > (Aside to Andrew/Atul: a year+ after that posting, do you still make a
> > lot of use of collaborative editing for recording group talk and
> > crystallizing it into more cohesive documents?)
> >
> > [Typos cleaned up, obvious asides removed.]
> >
> > 12:35 PM  me: this post that Andrew just pointed out on the chipy list
> > is a good summary/direction from our "how do we *talk* better"
> > conversations back at textura.
> > http://www.humanized.com/weblog/2006/04/19/moonedit_to_the_rescue/
> > ------------------------------
> > 17 minutes12:53 PM  Chad:I'd have to try it. I like the idea of multiple
> > inputs into a computer. But shared editing seems, i don't know. I wonder if
> > the key to moonedit is the search and editing features or its collaborative
> > nature or if the concurrent editing is really the key. But good stuff.
> > ------------------------------
> > 10 minutes1:05 PM  me: i have a notion of unix "talk" with the
> > separating line removed... our chats here often take on that
> > write-respond-rewrite flow, but without the ability to actually go back and
> > edit - whereas talk had the opposite problem of showing revision clearly but
> > not showing history. see also, the use of ^H written out to represent
> > explicit rethought.
> > 1:09 PM perhaps novel to collabedit though: having a natural third role
> > (filled by anyone not actively conversing) of editing the overall movement
> > of the conversation by choosing and arranging highlights as they occur or
> > are recognized.
> > ------------------------------
> > 7 minutes1:16 PM  me: also clearly addresses the space i'm curious to
> > fill in a lot of our maillist / groups threaded discussions, where it's easy
> > to lose sight of the larger picture as we snip bits to reply to and follow
> > sub-thoughts. real-time wiki collaboration with the persistence / time-delay
> > that a smooth transition between chat and email provides.
> >
> >  ------------------------------
> > 39 minutes 1:58 PM Chad: third role seems interesting. we'll call it
> > copy editor as that is the closest real world equivalent I think.
> > ------------------------------
> > 12 minutes2:11 PM  Chad: I agree about the need to transition things
> > easier. chat -> email -> wiki or just publishing chats or email threads like
> > you can a google notebook. A research file or something like when writing a
> > paper or book. You have notes. And interviews. And biblo info.
> >   Maybe people just need to hire more editors. =)
> > ------------------------------
> > 21 minutes 2:32 PM  me: publishing chats/emails brings up the
> > unavoidable question of how we'll deal with permission - not all that
> > naturally handled today with single-author, only implicit broad strokes for
> > multi-author.
> > 2:33 PM say I want to publish this chat session as a response to the
> > Chipy post that started it.
> > 2:35 PM or more likely, want to lightly edit it first. what conventions
> > or encoding of intent improves on explicit requests-per-document, which
> > might work with a two person chat but presumably scales miserably.
> > 2:36 PM Creative Commons gives a good start at the language for talking
> > about redistribution and derivative works etc
> > 2:40 PM so the top-level shift is in realizing that all the various
> > pieces that make up my daily content-stream should be versioned, should be
> > publishable, should be permissionable. (and that part of my content-stream
> > is the recursively-meta-information about what I'm reading, who I'm talking
> > to, when I published something...)
> > 2:43 PM Chad :I think the permissions might be deducible(sp) based on
> > context. Everything from the Chipy article is ok. But I'd like to block the
> > segue into personal or side notes as part of conversation.
> > 2:45 PM But then again, maybe it is just a multi-layered chat. topic in
> > black, tangent in green. I personally like to leave the subject vague and
> > ambiguous but that's just for fun. Personal comments in red.
> > 2:47 PM me : right, that's the slight editing I'm talking about. and
> > yeah, it could probably be deducible with minimal input, coding (as you say,
> > by color), or perhaps if there were a side channel to create stronger
> > replying-to-linkages (contextual theme-tagging?)
> > 2:48 PM cf an extension of irc's "name:" prefixing to identify
> > sub-threads.
> > 2:49 PM Chad : yeah, I like the irc level with software support.
> > 2:51 PM  me: alternatively, a lot of this problem might go away if the
> > context is more explicit in collaborative editing, in that we'd be having
> > the "brainstorm about collaborative editing" thread in a document that
> > started there, and still have our personal chat clearly personal. another
> > parallel, the side-channel irc chats alongside a more formal presentation or
> > talk.
> > 2:52 PM ie, perhaps this is all a side-effect of the flaws of just-email
> > or just-chat.
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Chicago mailing list
> > Chicago at python.org
> > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
> >
> >
>
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From deadwisdom at gmail.com  Fri Aug 17 18:37:04 2007
From: deadwisdom at gmail.com (Brantley Harris)
Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2007 11:37:04 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] Web Frameworks?
In-Reply-To: <979B6115-A1DB-4E0F-904A-F5D619C27EDB@cti.depaul.edu>
References: <979B6115-A1DB-4E0F-904A-F5D619C27EDB@cti.depaul.edu>
Message-ID: <694c06d60708170937w4a00778bm546a70d2f1332f2@mail.gmail.com>

Man I wish there was a professor teaching this stuff at DePaul when I was there.

One thing about the Django ORM API. It uses __gt syntax for a few
different reasons. First, you have to create a special "magic" object
to interact with the ">=" correctly.  In SQLObject you have the
Table.q, SQLAlchemy uses Table.c.  During the magic removal
discussions this idea was explored, but was found to be more
error-prone and just as crufty, e.g. Object.c.date >= date vs.
date__gte=date.  The __ also opens up other functions that aren't
available as operators: date__between=(start, end),
name__icontains='name', etc.

It's interesting to hear your points of view but many seem to come
down to a difference of perspective: practical vs. academic.  A lot of
my choices are made from the standpoint of practicality, i.e. get it
done as well and fast as possible.  Whereas, inevitably, a lot of your
choices are made from the view of academia, i.e. imagine the best way.
 Now, you have the foresight to envision Python as part of your best
way, which I think is great.  But I hope that you pay close attention
to this dichotomy, because I think you'll see a number of differences.
 (Actually it's a trichotomy, practicality, academia, and microsoft,
but I'm not going to go into that.)

Truly if I could infuse anything into my DePaul experience, it would
be more time spent on practical problem solving.  If I could write the
curriculum, most classes would be centered on specific projects that
stretched these muscles.

On 8/17/07, Massimo Di Pierro <mdipierro at cti.depaul.edu> wrote:
>
> Hello everybody,
>
> as you know I teach web development with Python at DePaul and I would like
> to share my views on Django, Turbogears, Pylons, etc.
>
> About the database-access API:
>
> The Django API are better than SQLObjects and SQLAlchemy. They would be even
> better if they could take advantage of the ">=" syntax (like SQLObjects)
> instead of the __gt syntax. SQLAlchemy goes in the wrong direction by making
> life too difficult for the developer. Teaching SQLAlchemy would be as
> difficult as teaching SQL. Storm.Canonical API seems even better than
> Django's API.
>
> About template languages:
>
> Kid/Genshi are the best. Students know XML therefore Kid is easy for them.
> Moreover it is the only template language that forces users to use write
> good XML. We teach students that they should use XML for nearly all web data
> exchange therefore Kid is perfect.
>
> About Urls and Routes:
>
> I do not like Django urls.py because they go in the direction of duplicating
> information instead of forcing users to follow good practice. For example,
> if I change name to a controller I also need to edit urls.py and vice versa;
> moreover I can have a form action with a different name than the name of the
> corresponding controller. This is very confusing to students. CherryPy and
> RoR instead enforce good practice. The ability to match arbitrary URLs
> should be optional and specified at the level of the controller (perhaps
> with a decorator).
>
> WSGI and mod_python:
>
> WSGI is an excellent idea but if it does not work with mod_python it is
> useless today. mod_python is faster, easier to deploy, and does not require
> advanced Apache knowledge. mod_rewrite is  difficult and way beyond the
> scope of a typical web development course.
>
> Forms:
>
> There is a perfect language for creating forms: HTML+CSS! Students know how
> to do it. Widgets add too much structure and will never be as flexible as
> HTML+CSS. WebHelpers are the best way to go. Pylons has them but they are
> not well documented and therefore unusable. WebHelpers should also generate
> javascript code for client-based validation (although this should not be a
> replacement for server-side validation).
>
> Debugging
>
> Pylons seems to be better than Django and Django is better than Turbogears
> (CherryPy).
> Anyway, there should not be a debug ON/OFF setting. There should be a
> standard error page that allows login as administrator. If administrator is
> logged in he/she can see the debug information. If a user gets an error
> page, the error should be logged and the administrator should be contacted.
>
> Django Generic Views, Turbogears Identity, etc.:
>
> Django generic views are useful and so are Turbogears identity and
> registration but, these are optional features. They should be implemented as
> a set of advanced API to be used inside the controller. Otherwise there is
> too much magic going on.
>
> General design issues:
>
> There should be a single configuration file for the database (that defaults
> to SQLlite) and for email settings, like in TurboGears.
> Sessions should always be on and should always be file based.
> Page caching a la Django is a good idea and should be available as an
> optional feature via decorators.
> There should be a small set of core API accessible via a single module.
> Django, for example, has too many modules and remembering which contains
> what is a major task.
>
> The bottom line:
>
> There is too much choice in the world of Pyhon web frameworks (and too many
> of them are 0.x) and this prevent us from making the case for each one of
> them against the Java dinosaur frameworks.
>
> I have to teach this stuff therefore I can help the Python community to
> market their products. So far I have only covered Django in my classes
> because it is the only stable one and I was able to get the United Nations
> to use it. Nevertheless I am still waiting for the community come up with a
> real J2EE killer.
>
> What I encourage you to do:
>
> 1) Keep in mind that too much choice is bad, not good
> 2) Do not reinvent the wheel
> 3) Keep the API stable, work on improving implementation and documentation
> 4) Have one person in change of usability and one in charge of security
> 5) Focus on a single framework (I suggest Pylons + Genshi + WebHelpers +
> Django or Canonical ORM) that works with mod_python, defaults to SQLlite and
> has sessions on by default. You already have all the pieces... just put
> package them well.
> 6) Make sure the ORM works with Oracle
> 7) Write API for Generic View, Login/Logout and Registration
> 8) Write documentation...
> 9) Write documentation...
> 10) Write documentation...
>
> You make this and I guarantee it will be used in a course at DePaul in the
> winter quarter.
>
> Massimo
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Chicago mailing list
> Chicago at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>
>

From adrian at holovaty.com  Fri Aug 17 18:48:57 2007
From: adrian at holovaty.com (Adrian Holovaty)
Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2007 11:48:57 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] Web Frameworks?
In-Reply-To: <979B6115-A1DB-4E0F-904A-F5D619C27EDB@cti.depaul.edu>
References: <979B6115-A1DB-4E0F-904A-F5D619C27EDB@cti.depaul.edu>
Message-ID: <a2eb1c260708170948v4b276264qf52ac00189b78bc7@mail.gmail.com>

Hi Massimo,

I try not to get sucked into these sorts of subjective discussions
anymore, but...what the heck.

On 8/17/07, Massimo Di Pierro <mdipierro at cti.depaul.edu> wrote:
> I do not like Django urls.py because they go in the direction of duplicating
> information instead of forcing users to follow good practice. For example,
> if I change name to a controller I also need to edit urls.py and vice versa;
> moreover I can have a form action with a different name than the name of the
> corresponding controller. This is very confusing to students. CherryPy and
> RoR instead enforce good practice. The ability to match arbitrary URLs
> should be optional and specified at the level of the controller (perhaps
> with a decorator).

Decoupling URLs from the code that executes them is a good thing. This
is a deliberate design decision. See the section "URLconfs and loose
coupling" at http://www.djangobook.com/en/beta/chapter03/ for some
reasoning.

> there should not be a debug ON/OFF setting. There should be a standard error
> page that allows login as administrator. If administrator is logged in he/she can see the
> debug information.

Whoa there! Not only is this a security problem, it's a usability
problem. Site users should never be presented a link to "login as
administrator." Could you imagine how ludicrous and unprofessional it
would be if a Google or Yahoo error page, or perhaps your bank's Web
site, displayed a "login as administrator" link?

Adrian

From fitz at red-bean.com  Fri Aug 17 19:10:26 2007
From: fitz at red-bean.com (Brian W. Fitzpatrick)
Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2007 12:10:26 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] Looking for Rob Kapteyn
Message-ID: <a5375ad50708171010m6433cc94x40349da2ed8d704b@mail.gmail.com>

If you're not Rob, you can safely hit delete now. :)

Rob, you signed up for the sprint, but mail to the only address I can
find for you is bouncing.  Please mail me--I need some information
from you.

-Fitz

From ianb at colorstudy.com  Fri Aug 17 19:21:12 2007
From: ianb at colorstudy.com (Ian Bicking)
Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2007 12:21:12 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] Web Frameworks?
In-Reply-To: <979B6115-A1DB-4E0F-904A-F5D619C27EDB@cti.depaul.edu>
References: <979B6115-A1DB-4E0F-904A-F5D619C27EDB@cti.depaul.edu>
Message-ID: <46C5D908.8040304@colorstudy.com>

Massimo Di Pierro wrote:
> Hello everybody,
> 
> as you know I teach web development with Python at DePaul and I would 
> like to share my views on Django, Turbogears, Pylons, etc.
> 
> About the database-access API:
> 
> The Django API are better than SQLObjects and SQLAlchemy. They would be 
> even better if they could take advantage of the ?>=? syntax (like 
> SQLObjects) instead of the __gt syntax. SQLAlchemy goes in the wrong 
> direction by making life too difficult for the developer. Teaching 
> SQLAlchemy would be as difficult as teaching SQL. Storm.Canonical API 
> seems even better than Django's API.
> 
> About template languages:
> 
> Kid/Genshi are the best. Students know XML therefore Kid is easy for 
> them. Moreover it is the only template language that forces users to use 
> write good XML. We teach students that they should use XML for nearly 
> all web data exchange therefore Kid is perfect.

I don't think this is that important for a professional web developer, 
but educationally a markup-based language seems really good -- it should 
get the students thinking about the document as a tree, not as text.

Definitely Genshi is the better of the languages.  You also get an 
introduction to some nice XMLisms like XPath.

I've always considered template-based XML generation to be weird.  I 
think it should be generated directly in Python.

> About Urls and Routes:
> 
> I do not like Django urls.py because they go in the direction of 
> duplicating information instead of forcing users to follow good 
> practice. For example, if I change name to a controller I also need to 
> edit urls.py and vice versa; moreover I can have a form action with a 
> different name than the name of the corresponding controller. This is 
> very confusing to students. CherryPy and RoR instead enforce good 
> practice. The ability to match arbitrary URLs should be optional and 
> specified at the level of the controller (perhaps with a decorator).

CherryPy and RoR definitely *don't* enforce good practice.  It's a lot 
more convenient than an explicit enumeration of every URL in the system, 
but it's not better practice.

Pylons is like RoR here, with both explicit routes like Django and 
implicit ones like CherryPy.

> WSGI and mod_python:
> 
> WSGI is an excellent idea but if it does not work with mod_python it is 
> useless today. mod_python is faster, easier to deploy, and does not 
> require advanced Apache knowledge. mod_rewrite is  difficult and way 
> beyond the scope of a typical web development course.

Eh?  There are some WSGI/mod_python hookups, but for some reason they 
aren't well maintained.  I think there's one that is better maintained 
now, though.  mod_python is not widely supported in shared hosting 
situations -- quite the contrary, it's things like FastCGI that are more 
likely to be supported.  And if you really want Apache integration then 
mod_wsgi is both faster and I think more clear in scope than mod_python.

> Forms:
> 
> There is a perfect language for creating forms: HTML+CSS! Students know 
> how to do it. Widgets add too much structure and will never be as 
> flexible as HTML+CSS. WebHelpers are the best way to go. Pylons has them 
> but they are not well documented and therefore unusable. WebHelpers 
> should also generate javascript code for client-based validation 
> (although this should not be a replacement for server-side validation).

Note in Pylons they use FormEncode, which separates validation from form 
generation, and includes htmlfill, which separates form filling from 
form generation.  So it gives you a lot more flexibility.  (TurboGears 
uses FormEncode too, but Django chose note to.)

I think WebHelpers Javascript stuff is a horrible crutch that you 
shouldn't use in an educational setting.  If you want to use a 
markup-based templating language they'll also work fairly poorly.  I 
might be inclined to use jQuery in an educational setting, as it 
presents a nice way of thinking about dynamic pages -- maybe a bit too 
magic, but I think it's one of the relatively more benign kinds of 
Javascript magic.

One of the things that a student won't get is the experience of working 
in a diverse team that might include someone more focused on UI.  I 
suppose this is inevitable, but it's in that situation when form 
generation really falls down.  So they are probably less likely to 
appreciate the problems with form generation in a classroom setting.

This is my own longer opinion on form libraries: 
http://blog.ianbicking.org/on-form-libraries.html

Ben noted to me that the WebHelpers docs are fairly complete (though 
maybe not easy to find): 
http://pylonshq.com/docs/module-webhelpers.rails.html

> Debugging
> 
> Pylons seems to be better than Django and Django is better than 
> Turbogears (CherryPy).

Thanks (I wrote the Pylons one).  The other people *could* use the same 
one as Pylons, but they choose not to.  Well, TG will with 2.0 of course 
(since it's built on Pylons), but they actually were entirely able to 
use it with 1.x.

> Anyway, there should not be a debug ON/OFF setting. There should be a 
> standard error page that allows login as administrator. If administrator 
> is logged in he/she can see the debug information. If a user gets an 
> error page, the error should be logged and the administrator should be 
> contacted.

The Pylons interactive debugger is quite inappropriate for any 
production setting -- everytime there's an exception it saves all the 
stack frames in case you want to further inspect them.

We have talked about some kind of backdoor to view the stuff immediately 
even if debug is off, but never got around to it.  It shouldn't be part 
of the normal authentication system, as it should be something that 
works when other things are broken.  And it should work when you are 
logged in as any user for testing.  So it really would have to be 
another parallel authentication system.  This has been discussed more as 
a means of further restricting debug information than further showing it 
off.  E.g., force any non-localhost user to always be authenticated to 
see a traceback.

Pylons includes a setting to email errors.  They don't include the value 
of locals, but really they should.  I should fix that sometime.

> Django Generic Views, Turbogears Identity, etc.:
> 
> Django generic views are useful and so are Turbogears identity and 
> registration but, these are optional features. They should be 
> implemented as a set of advanced API to be used inside the controller. 
> Otherwise there is too much magic going on.
> 
> General design issues:
> 
> There should be a single configuration file for the database (that 
> defaults to SQLlite) and for email settings, like in TurboGears.
> Sessions should always be on and should always be file based. 
> Page caching a la Django is a good idea and should be available as an 
> optional feature via decorators.
> There should be a small set of core API accessible via a single module. 
> Django, for example, has too many modules and remembering which contains 
> what is a major task.

I've actually encouraged Pylons to create a package in an application like:

   from pylons import request, response, ...

And then controllers would only import from within the application's 
package, making it easier to override things later.  But I think people 
thought this was a little too weird.  Pylons does this a bit with the 
base controller module, which contains all the common imports.

Of course Pylons gets away with a fairly small API through the cloud of 
external packages which are commonly used with Pylons.  But the core is 
still usable and small.

> The bottom line:
> 
> There is too much choice in the world of Pyhon web frameworks (and too 
> many of them are 0.x) and this prevent us from making the case for each 
> one of them against the Java dinosaur frameworks.

I was recently looking at the Python wiki page on web frameworks, and 
was surprised by few viable frameworks there are these days.  There's 
only four serious web frameworks at this point: Django, Pylons, 
TurboGears, and Zope.  There's some small things that are still actively 
developed, like web.py, yaro, and a couple others.

Depending on what you are trying to teach, smaller web frameworks could 
actually be better -- they can bring you a little closer to HTTP, which 
I think is good.  HTTP is easy, but frankly most frameworks make it seem 
mysterious and difficult.  But it depends where you are trying to get 
with the students.  Frameworks are a little more vocational, HTTP a 
little more CSy.


-- 
Ian Bicking : ianb at colorstudy.com : http://blog.ianbicking.org
             : Write code, do good : http://topp.openplans.org/careers

From mdipierro at cti.depaul.edu  Fri Aug 17 19:24:34 2007
From: mdipierro at cti.depaul.edu (Massimo Di Pierro)
Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2007 12:24:34 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] Web Frameworks?
In-Reply-To: <1187365600.6461.3.camel@localhost>
References: <979B6115-A1DB-4E0F-904A-F5D619C27EDB@cti.depaul.edu>
	<1187365600.6461.3.camel@localhost>
Message-ID: <1A2F1342-C395-4745-9AD3-867092D1B1CD@cti.depaul.edu>

Thank you for the suggestions to look into elixir.

I think elixir is great and I will use it as soon as this issue with  
Tesla is fixed
http://code.google.com/p/tesla-pylons-elixir/issues/detail?id=25

I did not know that mod_wsgi was now stable. I will definitively  
check it out.

Please do not misunderstand my previous comments:

I am not talking about creating another python web framework and I  
think you people have created impressive python libraries. All I am  
saying is that today I find very hard to make the case to my students  
why they should use one python framework over another, and I find it  
even harder to make the case to businesses. In order for the  
community to be able to make that case you must come together and  
concede something: choose one ORM, one template language, one  
framework. I only gave you my point of view about components to stir  
discussion, and my point of view is biased by my teaching needs.
I could write my own "perfect" web framework but that is not my  
point. Too much choice is killing python web frameworks because the  
work of many good people is scattered and not focused.

I think you should budget some time during the next meeting to talk  
to users, discuss the possibility to merge the existing frameworks,  
simplify them, agree on a small set of stable APIs, give some  
guarantees to the users about the stability of the APIs and document  
them or businesses will not invest in it.

So far only Django has been able to gather enough attention but it is  
still too difficult to use when compared with Rails.

I think there are enough people in the area to come out with an  
excellent product (but not 4 or 5) and an excellent marketing machine  
for it.

Massimo








From bradyc at google.com  Fri Aug 17 19:39:30 2007
From: bradyc at google.com (Brady Cox)
Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2007 13:39:30 -0400
Subject: [Chicago] Sign up for Google Sprint
In-Reply-To: <a5375ad50708170909u59f3aa13j75299739909d7ad4@mail.gmail.com>
References: <18112.37974.124051.186733@montanaro.dyndns.org>
	<a5375ad50708170909u59f3aa13j75299739909d7ad4@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <2dfd89af0708171039p5f777a0di87b8a8d8c6ec301a@mail.gmail.com>

Oh bummer, I'll still be in the ATL.

On 8/17/07, Brian W. Fitzpatrick <fitz at red-bean.com> wrote:
>
> Last chance.  Sign up soon or you won't be able to get into the building
> :-)
>
> -Fitz
>
> On 8/13/07, skip at pobox.com <skip at pobox.com> wrote:
> > If you plan to attend the Chicago branch of the Google Sprint, add your
> name
> > to the relevant table on this wiki page:
> >
> >     http://wiki.python.org/moin/GoogleSprint
> >
> > Skip
> > _______________________________________________
> > Chicago mailing list
> > Chicago at python.org
> > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
> >
> >
> _______________________________________________
> Chicago mailing list
> Chicago at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>



-- 
Brady Cox
Google Chicago
Datacenter Artisan/Professional Owning Critic

Any dissemination, distribution or other use of the contents of this message
by anyone other than the intended recipient is strictly prohibited without
written consent from Major League Baseball.
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From mdipierro at cti.depaul.edu  Fri Aug 17 19:57:10 2007
From: mdipierro at cti.depaul.edu (Massimo Di Pierro)
Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2007 12:57:10 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] Web Frameworks?
In-Reply-To: <a2eb1c260708170948v4b276264qf52ac00189b78bc7@mail.gmail.com>
References: <979B6115-A1DB-4E0F-904A-F5D619C27EDB@cti.depaul.edu>
	<a2eb1c260708170948v4b276264qf52ac00189b78bc7@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <E7EE36EA-BB66-41A5-8598-2CC6F8DE2CA4@cti.depaul.edu>

Hi Adrian,

so far I have been using Django and I have thought Django. I find it  
the most stable and easy to install framework.

I understand your argument about urls, I just think it should be  
optional otherwise it makes a steeper learning curve.

About debugging, perhaps I did not express myself properly. I think  
all errors should be logged. Errors should never be displayed to the  
user unless the user identifies himself as the administrator. The  
administrator could be identified by a password (and I see why you  
object to it) and/or by a connection from localhost or a given  
network domain. I just don't want people to be publish an application  
and forget the debug=False flag. And I do not want that when they  
turn off debug the administrator has no way to check whether a user  
has an error. I am just asking for a built-in ticketing number. This  
should be easy for Django since Django already has an excellent  
administrative interface.

The only two things I do not like about Django are the urls and the  
template language. This is not because they are not functional but  
because, in my class, I have to teach Python and the template  
languages does not feel like Python, so I have to teach that too.

Massimo

On Aug 17, 2007, at 11:48 AM, Adrian Holovaty wrote:

> Hi Massimo,
>
> I try not to get sucked into these sorts of subjective discussions
> anymore, but...what the heck.
>
> On 8/17/07, Massimo Di Pierro <mdipierro at cti.depaul.edu> wrote:
>> I do not like Django urls.py because they go in the direction of  
>> duplicating
>> information instead of forcing users to follow good practice. For  
>> example,
>> if I change name to a controller I also need to edit urls.py and  
>> vice versa;
>> moreover I can have a form action with a different name than the  
>> name of the
>> corresponding controller. This is very confusing to students.  
>> CherryPy and
>> RoR instead enforce good practice. The ability to match arbitrary  
>> URLs
>> should be optional and specified at the level of the controller  
>> (perhaps
>> with a decorator).
>
> Decoupling URLs from the code that executes them is a good thing. This
> is a deliberate design decision. See the section "URLconfs and loose
> coupling" at http://www.djangobook.com/en/beta/chapter03/ for some
> reasoning.
>
>> there should not be a debug ON/OFF setting. There should be a  
>> standard error
>> page that allows login as administrator. If administrator is  
>> logged in he/she can see the
>> debug information.
>
> Whoa there! Not only is this a security problem, it's a usability
> problem. Site users should never be presented a link to "login as
> administrator." Could you imagine how ludicrous and unprofessional it
> would be if a Google or Yahoo error page, or perhaps your bank's Web
> site, displayed a "login as administrator" link?
>
> Adrian
> _______________________________________________
> Chicago mailing list
> Chicago at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago


From mdipierro at cti.depaul.edu  Fri Aug 17 20:00:12 2007
From: mdipierro at cti.depaul.edu (Massimo Di Pierro)
Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2007 13:00:12 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] Web Frameworks?
In-Reply-To: <46C5D908.8040304@colorstudy.com>
References: <979B6115-A1DB-4E0F-904A-F5D619C27EDB@cti.depaul.edu>
	<46C5D908.8040304@colorstudy.com>
Message-ID: <F046AF62-7DFF-4258-BB4B-60D10F9AA319@cti.depaul.edu>

Thanks Ian, this is useful information.

Massimo

On Aug 17, 2007, at 12:21 PM, Ian Bicking wrote:

>  to teach, smal

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From ianb at colorstudy.com  Fri Aug 17 20:14:30 2007
From: ianb at colorstudy.com (Ian Bicking)
Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2007 13:14:30 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] Web Frameworks?
In-Reply-To: <979B6115-A1DB-4E0F-904A-F5D619C27EDB@cti.depaul.edu>
References: <979B6115-A1DB-4E0F-904A-F5D619C27EDB@cti.depaul.edu>
Message-ID: <46C5E586.7000208@colorstudy.com>

You didn't mention testing anywhere in here.  Testing!

Massimo Di Pierro wrote:
> Hello everybody,
> 
> as you know I teach web development with Python at DePaul and I would 
> like to share my views on Django, Turbogears, Pylons, etc.
> 
> About the database-access API:
> 
> The Django API are better than SQLObjects and SQLAlchemy. They would be 
> even better if they could take advantage of the ?>=? syntax (like 
> SQLObjects) instead of the __gt syntax. SQLAlchemy goes in the wrong 
> direction by making life too difficult for the developer. Teaching 
> SQLAlchemy would be as difficult as teaching SQL. Storm.Canonical API 
> seems even better than Django's API.
> 
> About template languages:
> 
> Kid/Genshi are the best. Students know XML therefore Kid is easy for 
> them. Moreover it is the only template language that forces users to use 
> write good XML. We teach students that they should use XML for nearly 
> all web data exchange therefore Kid is perfect.
> 
> About Urls and Routes:
> 
> I do not like Django urls.py because they go in the direction of 
> duplicating information instead of forcing users to follow good 
> practice. For example, if I change name to a controller I also need to 
> edit urls.py and vice versa; moreover I can have a form action with a 
> different name than the name of the corresponding controller. This is 
> very confusing to students. CherryPy and RoR instead enforce good 
> practice. The ability to match arbitrary URLs should be optional and 
> specified at the level of the controller (perhaps with a decorator).
> 
> WSGI and mod_python:
> 
> WSGI is an excellent idea but if it does not work with mod_python it is 
> useless today. mod_python is faster, easier to deploy, and does not 
> require advanced Apache knowledge. mod_rewrite is  difficult and way 
> beyond the scope of a typical web development course.
> 
> Forms:
> 
> There is a perfect language for creating forms: HTML+CSS! Students know 
> how to do it. Widgets add too much structure and will never be as 
> flexible as HTML+CSS. WebHelpers are the best way to go. Pylons has them 
> but they are not well documented and therefore unusable. WebHelpers 
> should also generate javascript code for client-based validation 
> (although this should not be a replacement for server-side validation).
> 
> Debugging
> 
> Pylons seems to be better than Django and Django is better than 
> Turbogears (CherryPy).
> Anyway, there should not be a debug ON/OFF setting. There should be a 
> standard error page that allows login as administrator. If administrator 
> is logged in he/she can see the debug information. If a user gets an 
> error page, the error should be logged and the administrator should be 
> contacted.
> 
> Django Generic Views, Turbogears Identity, etc.:
> 
> Django generic views are useful and so are Turbogears identity and 
> registration but, these are optional features. They should be 
> implemented as a set of advanced API to be used inside the controller. 
> Otherwise there is too much magic going on.
> 
> General design issues:
> 
> There should be a single configuration file for the database (that 
> defaults to SQLlite) and for email settings, like in TurboGears.
> Sessions should always be on and should always be file based. 
> Page caching a la Django is a good idea and should be available as an 
> optional feature via decorators.
> There should be a small set of core API accessible via a single module. 
> Django, for example, has too many modules and remembering which contains 
> what is a major task.
> 
> The bottom line:
> 
> There is too much choice in the world of Pyhon web frameworks (and too 
> many of them are 0.x) and this prevent us from making the case for each 
> one of them against the Java dinosaur frameworks.
> 
> I have to teach this stuff therefore I can help the Python community to 
> market their products. So far I have only covered Django in my classes 
> because it is the only stable one and I was able to get the United 
> Nations to use it. Nevertheless I am still waiting for the community 
> come up with a real J2EE killer.
> 
> What I encourage you to do:
> 
> 1) Keep in mind that too much choice is bad, not good
> 2) Do not reinvent the wheel
> 3) Keep the API stable, work on improving implementation and documentation 
> 4) Have one person in change of usability and one in charge of security
> 5) Focus on a single framework (I suggest Pylons + Genshi + WebHelpers + 
> Django or Canonical ORM) that works with mod_python, defaults to SQLlite 
> and has sessions on by default. You already have all the pieces... just 
> put package them well.
> 6) Make sure the ORM works with Oracle
> 7) Write API for Generic View, Login/Logout and Registration
> 8) Write documentation...
> 9) Write documentation...
> 10) Write documentation...
> 
> You make this and I guarantee it will be used in a course at DePaul in 
> the winter quarter.
> 

-- 
Ian Bicking : ianb at colorstudy.com : http://blog.ianbicking.org
             : Write code, do good : http://topp.openplans.org/careers

From cstejerean at gmail.com  Fri Aug 17 20:56:42 2007
From: cstejerean at gmail.com (Cosmin Stejerean)
Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2007 13:56:42 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] Web Frameworks?
In-Reply-To: <1A2F1342-C395-4745-9AD3-867092D1B1CD@cti.depaul.edu>
References: <979B6115-A1DB-4E0F-904A-F5D619C27EDB@cti.depaul.edu>
	<1187365600.6461.3.camel@localhost>
	<1A2F1342-C395-4745-9AD3-867092D1B1CD@cti.depaul.edu>
Message-ID: <276266d0708171156h4d7a0c5dt92a9aae5b39e1e61@mail.gmail.com>

On 8/17/07, Massimo Di Pierro <mdipierro at cti.depaul.edu> wrote:
>
> Thank you for the suggestions to look into elixir.
>
> I think elixir is great and I will use it as soon as this issue with
> Tesla is fixed
> http://code.google.com/p/tesla-pylons-elixir/issues/detail?id=25
>
> I did not know that mod_wsgi was now stable. I will definitively
> check it out.
>
> Please do not misunderstand my previous comments:
>
> I am not talking about creating another python web framework and I
> think you people have created impressive python libraries. All I am
> saying is that today I find very hard to make the case to my students
> why they should use one python framework over another, and I find it
> even harder to make the case to businesses.


I don't think you should try to convince your students why they should use a
Python framework over any other Python framework. Most often this decision
comes down to a matter of taste. You should finds the best framework for
your needs and encourage students to explore the other options and pick the
one that feels most comfortable to them. Personally I'm often frustrated by
"frameworks" and often end up building something out of components that
suits my needs. Most of the existing frameworks are great when trying to
build an application quickly but I believe that any serious large scale
commercialy application will deviate significantly from the standard way of
doing things.

I think it will be harder to convince companies to adopt Python web
frameworks simply because AFAIK there are much fewer Python developers and
they are generally more expensive than the army of J2EE developers.

In order for the
> community to be able to make that case you must come together and
> concede something: choose one ORM, one template language, one
> framework. I only gave you my point of view about components to stir
> discussion, and my point of view is biased by my teaching needs.
> I could write my own "perfect" web framework but that is not my
> point. Too much choice is killing python web frameworks because the
> work of many good people is scattered and not focused.


I don't think there is one right way of doing web application development. I
like that frameworks like Pylons (i'm most familiar with Pylons, as far as I
know TurboGears allows the same) allow one to use SQLAlchemy or SQLObject as
ORMs and Kid, Genshi, Myghty, Mako (and probably more) for templating. If I
recall correctly someone was complaning earlier that the Django ORM is too
hard to use outside of Django otherwise I bet it could be integrated into
Pylons as well.

I haven't done much J2EE web development but as far as I can tell there are
many choices in that area as well with things like JSPs, JSF, Spring,
Struts, JDBC, Hibernate, EJB

I could be wrong but I don't think that the reason Java is popular for web
development is due to having just one way of doing things. I think it was
better commercial support, options for integrating with legacy systems and
availability of developers that helped Java become the de-facto enterprise
standard for web application development.

I think you should budget some time during the next meeting to talk
> to users, discuss the possibility to merge the existing frameworks,
> simplify them, agree on a small set of stable APIs, give some
> guarantees to the users about the stability of the APIs and document
> them or businesses will not invest in it.


I think this kind of effort will lead to Sun style over-engineering trying
to make something that will satisfy everyone and likely not ever be done. I
don't know about other folks but I care more about finding the right tool
for the job than building frameworks for the sake of building frameworks. I
think most of the current frameworks emerged out of the effort of a couple
of individuals to build something that would work for them.

So far only Django has been able to gather enough attention but it is
> still too difficult to use when compared with Rails.
>
I think there are enough people in the area to come out with an
> excellent product (but not 4 or 5) and an excellent marketing machine
> for it.


What I think is missing is a strong business arguement for using something
like Python for web application development. I've seen a couple of rather
unconvincing articles on the topic but no concrete evidence. Can a team of
experienced Python developers can write something better, faster or cheaper
than a team of experienced Java developers? (By better I mean one or more
of: less bugs, easier to maintain, or faster to add new features).

Massimo
>
> _______________________________________________
> Chicago mailing list
> Chicago at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>
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From kumar.mcmillan at gmail.com  Fri Aug 17 22:13:49 2007
From: kumar.mcmillan at gmail.com (Kumar McMillan)
Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2007 15:13:49 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] Web Frameworks?
In-Reply-To: <1A2F1342-C395-4745-9AD3-867092D1B1CD@cti.depaul.edu>
References: <979B6115-A1DB-4E0F-904A-F5D619C27EDB@cti.depaul.edu>
	<1187365600.6461.3.camel@localhost>
	<1A2F1342-C395-4745-9AD3-867092D1B1CD@cti.depaul.edu>
Message-ID: <b571660a0708171313i652f6c0x426470103e2c3370@mail.gmail.com>

On 8/17/07, Massimo Di Pierro <mdipierro at cti.depaul.edu> wrote:
> I could write my own "perfect" web framework but that is not my
> point. Too much choice is killing python web frameworks because the
> work of many good people is scattered and not focused.

My take on the state of python (and most dynamic languages) these days
is that it's *easy* to reinvent the wheel and often times it's a good
idea.  It can be faster and easier to maintain since it's isolated.
The django framework has almost completely reinvented the wheel, thus
it's easier to deploy.  I also think Ian hit the nail on the head with
a blog post a while back (can't find it) that talked about how copying
and rewriting code is not as bad as you think.  Dependencies and
linking to libraries kind of sucks.

I'd suggest forgetting about finding that silver bullet framework --
you won't be able to teach your students how to use a framework that
will keep them gainfully employed as an expert of that tool.  They
will need to know "how to program" to be gainfully employed as a
programmer.  That means  knowing more than just python, more than C,
knowing architecture, testing, troubleshooting, etc on a conceptual
level.

If you have an advanced class, why not make them write a framework?
In fact, why not have them write 4 frameworks, each built by a team of
2 or 3.  They will learn more about the web, python, http then they
ever will by using a framework already built.  Just be sure they don't
get hyped up enough to release one publicly ;)


> 1) Keep in mind that too much choice is bad, not good
> 2) Do not reinvent the wheel
> 3) Keep the API stable, work on improving implementation and documentation
> 4) Have one person in change of usability and one in charge of security
> 5) Focus on a single framework (I suggest Pylons + Genshi + WebHelpers +
> Django or Canonical ORM) that works with mod_python, defaults to SQLlite and
> has sessions on by default. You already have all the pieces... just put
> package them well.
> 6) Make sure the ORM works with Oracle
> 7) Write API for Generic View, Login/Logout and Registration
> 8) Write documentation...
> 9) Write documentation...
> 10) Write documentation...

This is mostly a good list -- documentation, for one, has been the key
to Django's continued success.

But as Ian says, where is "testing" on this list??!  If I were to
complain about one thing in my experience of trying to hire competent
developers straight out of school it would be that they have no idea
how to test code.  I've never even heard first hand of anyone learning
unit testing from a CS program, although I don't doubt it's taught
somewhere (Titus Brown must teach it).  To our company, code without
tests is worth nothing.  We would rather throw it away than have to
maintain it.

> ...We teach students that they should use XML for nearly all web data
> exchange therefore Kid is perfect.

XML is great for data exchange from computer to computer, but that's
about it.  I think XML generated by hand, maintained by hand is
complicated, error-prone and tedious.  However, this would be a great
learning experience for students, especially since xpath is invaluable
(you could teach a class just on xpath).  Teaching hand-coded XML
would be akin to writing a framework from scratch - a great learning
device but not a practical coding strategy.


Kumar

From cwebber at imagescape.com  Fri Aug 17 23:25:01 2007
From: cwebber at imagescape.com (Christopher Allan Webber)
Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2007 16:25:01 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] Web Frameworks?
In-Reply-To: <E7EE36EA-BB66-41A5-8598-2CC6F8DE2CA4@cti.depaul.edu> (Massimo Di
	Pierro's message of "Fri, 17 Aug 2007 12:57:10 -0500")
References: <979B6115-A1DB-4E0F-904A-F5D619C27EDB@cti.depaul.edu>
	<a2eb1c260708170948v4b276264qf52ac00189b78bc7@mail.gmail.com>
	<E7EE36EA-BB66-41A5-8598-2CC6F8DE2CA4@cti.depaul.edu>
Message-ID: <6yr6m13lci.fsf@imagepc03.rd.imagescape.com>

Hey Massimo.  Glad to hear from you again.  I remember having a C++
class with you some time back.. was quite good.

Now... on to details...

> And I do not want that when they turn off debug the administrator
> has no way to check whether a user has an error. I am just asking
> for a built-in ticketing number. This should be easy for Django
> since Django already has an excellent administrative interface.

Most frameworks these days ship with something called "error
middleware."  Django has it, Paste (and thus Pylons) has it... but
usually this is set up so that it emails the error (with traceback) to
the administrator (regardless of whether debug is set to True or
False).  I'm not sure what you mean by "ticketing".. are you
suggesting that instead these errors be stored in the database, and
there be a page to view them from the admin page?

In some ways I think that's a neat idea.  On the other hand, one error
that throws a lot of exceptions could lead to a lot of nasty extra
data in the database.  There was an error here at work not too long
ago that was sending about ten error emails a minute to one of the
project managers before I got to it.  Wasn't so hard to delete them
from her inbox once the issue was resolved, but an admin page might be
more of a pain.

As for the documentation issue, it's no secret that Django is doing
much better than Pylons in this regard.  A lot of components in Pylons
currently aren't very nicely documented.  Even when they are, there's
a fundamental problem... where should documentation be placed?  The
whole idea of complete decoupling sounds great in theory, but when it
comes to documentation it creates some serious headaches.  When I want
to look for documentation on paste, I'm often stuck looking in the
pylons wiki, or on the pylons mailing list.  This is even true for
less core components, or components that may be optionally swapped in
or out.  If Pylons was truly decoupled, then the documentation should
be too, rather than messily fragmented the way it is now.  (It's
especially frustrating for me, when I'm working in another framework
built off of many of the same components as Pylons, but I *still* have
to check the Pylons wiki.  Or sometimes I have to go to the Turbogears
community.  Etc, etc.)  I don't mean to complain too much: the Pylons
project is awesome, and I'm glad that it's there.  The documentation
issue is really just one that needs some serious attention... if there
*is* a possible solution to it.

From carl at personnelware.com  Fri Aug 17 23:52:14 2007
From: carl at personnelware.com (Carl Karsten)
Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2007 16:52:14 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] Web Frameworks?
In-Reply-To: <6yr6m13lci.fsf@imagepc03.rd.imagescape.com>
References: <979B6115-A1DB-4E0F-904A-F5D619C27EDB@cti.depaul.edu>	<a2eb1c260708170948v4b276264qf52ac00189b78bc7@mail.gmail.com>	<E7EE36EA-BB66-41A5-8598-2CC6F8DE2CA4@cti.depaul.edu>
	<6yr6m13lci.fsf@imagepc03.rd.imagescape.com>
Message-ID: <46C6188E.3010109@personnelware.com>

Christopher Allan Webber wrote:
> Hey Massimo.  Glad to hear from you again.  I remember having a C++
> class with you some time back.. was quite good.
> 
> Now... on to details...
> 
>> And I do not want that when they turn off debug the administrator
>> has no way to check whether a user has an error. I am just asking
>> for a built-in ticketing number. This should be easy for Django
>> since Django already has an excellent administrative interface.
> 
> False).  I'm not sure what you mean by "ticketing".. are you
> suggesting that instead these errors be stored in the database, and
> there be a page to view them from the admin page?
> 
> In some ways I think that's a neat idea.  On the other hand, one error
> that throws a lot of exceptions could lead to a lot of nasty extra
> data in the database.  There was an error here at work not too long
> ago that was sending about ten error emails a minute to one of the
> project managers before I got to it.  Wasn't so hard to delete them
> from her inbox once the issue was resolved, but an admin page might be
> more of a pain.

or less.

I am sure once it happened to the right person, you would soon see an option 
"Delete all entries like current entry" or something to manage the problem.

Carl K

From MDiPierro at cti.depaul.edu  Sat Aug 18 01:28:40 2007
From: MDiPierro at cti.depaul.edu (DiPierro, Massimo)
Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2007 18:28:40 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] R:  Web Frameworks?
References: <979B6115-A1DB-4E0F-904A-F5D619C27EDB@cti.depaul.edu><1187365600.6461.3.camel@localhost><1A2F1342-C395-4745-9AD3-867092D1B1CD@cti.depaul.edu>
	<276266d0708171156h4d7a0c5dt92a9aae5b39e1e61@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <6BE417C96732934A83E4BBBB3B7FF2F40542A1CF@haydn.cti.depaul.edu>

First of all I apologize to all of you if you think I was unfair to your project, in particular SQLAlchemy.
 
There is almost unanimous consensus that SQLAlchemy has superior functionalities compared to other ORM, including Storm. I am arguing with that. I am discussing what is easier to teach/learn. The point I tried to make is that its API is not as easy to use as the Django one because the mapper introduces additional steps to the user. Wasn't this the reason to make elixir? The documentation is impressive but needs to be organized better.
And have you counted how many clicks it takes from the main SQLAlchemy web page to find one single working example in order to get the idea of what it is?
 
Anyway, for the last time. It is not my intention to pitch one piece of software over another. I am just saying that here we have one mailing list with excellent people who can write excellent code and yet we have Django, Turbogears, Pylons, CherryPy, SQLAlchemy, SQLObjects, Elixir, Tesla, Kid, Genshi, Mako, etc. etc... almost more names than developers. You know more than I know about them but you cannot expect the average user to know them all and to be able to make a choice. You are the experts. You have to make a choice for them (by forming a committee, vote, etc.). I am talking about branding more than I am talking about technology. There are enough people in this mailing list to produce something of the same quality as J2EE or ASP. You could like to see M$ scared by your product and Sun to port it to Solaris but yet this is not happening.
 
Why do I care or bother to talk about this? Since recently there was no class at DePaul teaching open source software and no Python. We were 100% Java based. I had to convince my colleagues that it was worth to create such classes and that python is going to be a mainstream language. Nevertheless after a few years I still cannot point anybody to a stable 1.0 python web development framework (except for turbogears but its components are not >=1.0).
 
Yes I could write my own framework and some of my students could too (Cosmin and Christopher for example) but there no such a thing as "the best framework" unless there is consensus. And it is easier to build consensus if everybody contributes a little bit to the outcome.
 
I am just trying to motivate you to be more ambitious. I am not here to be the judge of something you have created and you are the expert on.
 
Imagine a PyCon conference where everybody talks about his own project or imagine the same conference where everybody talks about one aspect of the same large project. That makes news.
 
Massimo
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
Massimo Di Pierro 
CTI DePaul University, 243 S Wabash Ave, Chicago, IL 60604
Tel. +1-312-362-5173, Fax. +1-312-362-6116 
Email: mdipierro at cs.depaul.edu <mailto:mdipierro at cs.depaul.edu>  
Web page: http://www.metacryption.com/mdp/
 

From shekay at pobox.com  Sun Aug 19 02:36:39 2007
From: shekay at pobox.com (sheila miguez)
Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2007 19:36:39 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] Web Frameworks?
In-Reply-To: <276266d0708171156h4d7a0c5dt92a9aae5b39e1e61@mail.gmail.com>
References: <979B6115-A1DB-4E0F-904A-F5D619C27EDB@cti.depaul.edu>
	<1187365600.6461.3.camel@localhost>
	<1A2F1342-C395-4745-9AD3-867092D1B1CD@cti.depaul.edu>
	<276266d0708171156h4d7a0c5dt92a9aae5b39e1e61@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <a68ced640708181736l14a418ddoc1202da3b7f69274@mail.gmail.com>

On 8/17/07, Cosmin Stejerean <cstejerean at gmail.com> wrote:

> I haven't done much J2EE web development but as far as I can tell there are
> many choices in that area as well with things like JSPs, JSF, Spring,
> Struts, JDBC, Hibernate, EJB

I use spring, jboss, hibernate.

I was curious about aop in python and found a guy out there trying to
create spring for python. http://springpython.python-hosting.com/

-- 
sheila

From bray at sent.com  Sun Aug 19 15:14:21 2007
From: bray at sent.com (Brian Ray)
Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2007 08:14:21 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] Web Frameworks?
In-Reply-To: <a68ced640708181736l14a418ddoc1202da3b7f69274@mail.gmail.com>
References: <979B6115-A1DB-4E0F-904A-F5D619C27EDB@cti.depaul.edu>
	<1187365600.6461.3.camel@localhost>
	<1A2F1342-C395-4745-9AD3-867092D1B1CD@cti.depaul.edu>
	<276266d0708171156h4d7a0c5dt92a9aae5b39e1e61@mail.gmail.com>
	<a68ced640708181736l14a418ddoc1202da3b7f69274@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1E8642E3-E57F-4990-A24E-1AD7226DB802@sent.com>


On Aug 18, 2007, at 7:36 PM, sheila miguez wrote:

> On 8/17/07, Cosmin Stejerean <cstejerean at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> I haven't done much J2EE web development but as far as I can tell  
>> there are
>> many choices in that area as well with things like JSPs, JSF, Spring,
>> Struts, JDBC, Hibernate, EJB
>
> I use spring, jboss, hibernate.
>
> I was curious about aop in python and found a guy out there trying to
> create spring for python. http://springpython.python-hosting.com/

There are a couple other projects that claim to use aspect oriented  
programming in Python:

http://www.cs.tut.fi/~ask/aspects/aspects.html
http://www.logilab.org/projects/aspects
http://peak.telecommunity.com/
http://pythius.sourceforge.net/

I am not sure how spring-like these are.

I played with the first link and its example:

For example, consider class c:

class c:
     def foo(self):
         print "foo"

and function adv:

def adv(self, *args, **keyw):
     print "before"
     rv = self.__proceed(*args,**keyw)
     print "after"
     return rv

You can wrap the method foo of class c inside function adv by calling:

wrap_around( c.foo, adv )

Now, executing

o = c()
o.foo()


results output

before
foo
after

I am really interested why a framework would be used here at all. It  
seems if would be easy to do any of this with minimal effort using  
plain language features.

Likewise, about Web Frameworks, I am not sure one is always needed at  
first. When I was starting out with webstuff, I just did without a  
framework and did something like this http://fragments.turtlemeat.com/ 
pythonwebserver.php and SQLObject. Then I went back to the stand  
alone server code and replaced it with what was needed for mod_python.

I am not saying not to use a Framework. In fact, since when I start  
new web projects I used Django.  Nevertheless, I got a lot of value  
out of learning from base Python first and worrying about Frameworks  
later.

Brian Ray
bray at sent.com
http://kazavoo.com/blog

From ken at stox.org  Sun Aug 19 21:39:50 2007
From: ken at stox.org (Kenneth P. Stox)
Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2007 14:39:50 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] Pizza providers update
In-Reply-To: <b571660a0708161536i3aeb8d27y80ef3ddaca9347d7@mail.gmail.com>
References: <FBE61B6C5FE02547BBA6A1B324F2D6835A9EF2@portalserver2k6.roytalman.com>
	<1187299576.7766.60.camel@stox.dyndns.org>
	<3F9A667F-EA1F-49BA-8BD5-FCF28C694D7E@sent.com>
	<b571660a0708161536i3aeb8d27y80ef3ddaca9347d7@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1187552390.7766.123.camel@stox.dyndns.org>

On Thu, 2007-08-16 at 17:36 -0500, Kumar McMillan wrote:
> 
> this may be worth pointing out ... the company I'm at
> (leapfrogonline.com) has worked with Roy Talman way way back in
> ancient times.  

I guess I go back to pre-historic times then. My first dealing with Ilya
Talman was back in 1985. Unless things have changed much since I last
had contact with them, they are among the finest recruiters in Chicago.

> Had it not been for Doug graciously providing free
> pizza and pitching Roy Talman services at the meeting, then we would
> not have known that they are now beginning to provide contractors for
> open source jobs.  They certainly were not in the past.  This is
> excellent news for us since it is very hard to find Python developers
> in Chicago (btw, we're hiring!
> http://www.leapfrogonline.com/who/careers.php ).
> 
> In fact, I'm not kidding here, but we recently had to mandate that
> front-end web development be limited to RUBY because the resources we
> can find are greater in the Ruby dept than in Python.  This is sort of
> sad because we'd rather use Python for these things.

Have you thought of developing python talent in-house? This can be a
very effective mechanism as your developers will more in sync with your
internal methodologies. Continuing education also helps build employee
loyalty. 

> It doesn't help to push people away who are trying to move into the
> open source field.  I think it was pretty obvious from Doug's first
> post that it wasn't spam.  It may be that Roy Talman is still in early
> stages of being able to support Python resources, but they are
> certainly *trying* and this list is a great place to start!  There are
> a lot of talented developers on this list.

It seems that Doug has accepted the criticism in good faith. It was not
meant to push him out, but to suggest that an alternate method might be
more effective. It will make a better impression on open source
developers and on open source shops.

> 
> -Kumar
> 
> PS. if you use gmail then you get a nifty "view as HTML" link for Word
> docs.  Just sayin

Or configure your email client to use Abiword, Open Office, etc. to read
Word doc files. That being said, it is in the best interests of the open
source community to encourage the use of open tools and formats whenever
possible.

-Ken Stox
 ken at stox.org


From shekay at pobox.com  Mon Aug 20 00:38:25 2007
From: shekay at pobox.com (sheila miguez)
Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2007 17:38:25 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] Web Frameworks?
In-Reply-To: <1E8642E3-E57F-4990-A24E-1AD7226DB802@sent.com>
References: <979B6115-A1DB-4E0F-904A-F5D619C27EDB@cti.depaul.edu>
	<1187365600.6461.3.camel@localhost>
	<1A2F1342-C395-4745-9AD3-867092D1B1CD@cti.depaul.edu>
	<276266d0708171156h4d7a0c5dt92a9aae5b39e1e61@mail.gmail.com>
	<a68ced640708181736l14a418ddoc1202da3b7f69274@mail.gmail.com>
	<1E8642E3-E57F-4990-A24E-1AD7226DB802@sent.com>
Message-ID: <a68ced640708191538k173ee8e6v43834c0e9b1ab328@mail.gmail.com>

On 8/19/07, Brian Ray <bray at sent.com> wrote:
>
> On Aug 18, 2007, at 7:36 PM, sheila miguez wrote:

> > I was curious about aop in python and found a guy out there trying to
> > create spring for python. http://springpython.python-hosting.com/
>
> There are a couple other projects that claim to use aspect oriented
> programming in Python:
>
> http://www.cs.tut.fi/~ask/aspects/aspects.html
> http://www.logilab.org/projects/aspects
> http://peak.telecommunity.com/
> http://pythius.sourceforge.net/

I think I saw some of these following from the wikipedia page that
came up on aop when I googled aop and python.

> I am really interested why a framework would be used here at all. It
> seems if would be easy to do any of this with minimal effort using
> plain language features.

why a framework for aop and dependency injection would be used in
python? or in general?

in general? works well for me with java. I've never needed it for
simple python stuff I use at work. it would have been great to have
for the tcl jobs I've had before. I feel like evangelizing my old
company to tell them to see if something out there exists like this
for tcl (though I googled and it looks like more python people think
about aop than do tcl people. went to the tcler's wiki and just found
some bloviations, no projects)

I guess... if you need the features, great. if not, don't bother.

and if you do it yourself with vanilla features, maybe you'd
eventually end up turning your stuff into a framework.

In my early days of using tcl I hacked up a logging thing where I made
people use my own proc that wrapped their proc in logging when making
a real proc.

> I am not saying not to use a Framework. In fact, since when I start
> new web projects I used Django.  Nevertheless, I got a lot of value
> out of learning from base Python first and worrying about Frameworks
> later.

sure

I'd rather learn the base until I have a good enough feel for how much
value a framework would add.

-- 
sheila

From kumar.mcmillan at gmail.com  Mon Aug 20 21:07:08 2007
From: kumar.mcmillan at gmail.com (Kumar McMillan)
Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2007 14:07:08 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] Pizza providers update
In-Reply-To: <1187552390.7766.123.camel@stox.dyndns.org>
References: <FBE61B6C5FE02547BBA6A1B324F2D6835A9EF2@portalserver2k6.roytalman.com>
	<1187299576.7766.60.camel@stox.dyndns.org>
	<3F9A667F-EA1F-49BA-8BD5-FCF28C694D7E@sent.com>
	<b571660a0708161536i3aeb8d27y80ef3ddaca9347d7@mail.gmail.com>
	<1187552390.7766.123.camel@stox.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <b571660a0708201207of95f0c1se9140538affedc51@mail.gmail.com>

On 8/19/07, Kenneth P. Stox <ken at stox.org> wrote:
> > In fact, I'm not kidding here, but we recently had to mandate that
> > front-end web development be limited to RUBY because the resources we
> > can find are greater in the Ruby dept than in Python.  This is sort of
> > sad because we'd rather use Python for these things.
>
> Have you thought of developing python talent in-house? This can be a
> very effective mechanism as your developers will more in sync with your
> internal methodologies. Continuing education also helps build employee
> loyalty.

We have tried twice to work with a developer who had no Python
experience, having him learn Python while implementing the project.
It failed both times because we didn't have enough time to mentor the
developers.  We had to scrap the code.  This might not always be the
case, even with more or less time to mentor, but such a strategy is
very risky ;)  If we were a bigger company we could probably do it
better.  When I contracted briefly with IBM I noticed that they do
this - they hire people who have limited [or even no] Java knowledge
and they train them on the WebSphere product.

As with any language that wants to grow, Python needs more
"switchers."  Perhaps more people should write those silly articles on
"Moving from PHP to Python", or whatever ... or even going to other
local user groups and presenting some kind of intro to python.  I see
a lot of Java developers in Chicago switching to Ruby - perhaps it is
the influence of Thoughtworks or 37 Signals, I don't know.

Kumar

From tcp at uchicago.edu  Mon Aug 20 20:15:09 2007
From: tcp at uchicago.edu (Ted Pollari)
Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2007 11:15:09 -0700
Subject: [Chicago] Web Frameworks?
In-Reply-To: <b571660a0708171313i652f6c0x426470103e2c3370@mail.gmail.com>
References: <979B6115-A1DB-4E0F-904A-F5D619C27EDB@cti.depaul.edu>
	<1187365600.6461.3.camel@localhost>
	<1A2F1342-C395-4745-9AD3-867092D1B1CD@cti.depaul.edu>
	<b571660a0708171313i652f6c0x426470103e2c3370@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <D6112D14-0D90-41EC-9E0F-A26F5FB28CF9@uchicago.edu>


On Aug 17, 2007, at 1:13 PM, Kumar McMillan wrote:

>  I've never even heard first hand of anyone learning
> unit testing from a CS program, although I don't doubt it's taught
> somewhere (Titus Brown must teach it).


He's a biologist isn't he?  I seem to remember him quipping about how  
cs related stuff wasn't his primary area of interest.  But maybe,  
hopefully he teaches something were he can flex his testing foo.

-t

(now in Tacoma but still pretending to be a Chicagoan)




From ianb at colorstudy.com  Tue Aug 21 06:16:57 2007
From: ianb at colorstudy.com (Ian Bicking)
Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2007 23:16:57 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] Web Frameworks?
In-Reply-To: <D6112D14-0D90-41EC-9E0F-A26F5FB28CF9@uchicago.edu>
References: <979B6115-A1DB-4E0F-904A-F5D619C27EDB@cti.depaul.edu>	<1187365600.6461.3.camel@localhost>	<1A2F1342-C395-4745-9AD3-867092D1B1CD@cti.depaul.edu>	<b571660a0708171313i652f6c0x426470103e2c3370@mail.gmail.com>
	<D6112D14-0D90-41EC-9E0F-A26F5FB28CF9@uchicago.edu>
Message-ID: <46CA6739.8080604@colorstudy.com>

Ted Pollari wrote:
> On Aug 17, 2007, at 1:13 PM, Kumar McMillan wrote:
> 
>>  I've never even heard first hand of anyone learning
>> unit testing from a CS program, although I don't doubt it's taught
>> somewhere (Titus Brown must teach it).
> 
> 
> He's a biologist isn't he?  I seem to remember him quipping about how  
> cs related stuff wasn't his primary area of interest.  But maybe,  
> hopefully he teaches something were he can flex his testing foo.

Yeah, but I think he's teaching some CS classes now, somewhere in 
Michigan.  Massimo may find it useful to ask him about his thoughts.


-- 
Ian Bicking : ianb at colorstudy.com : http://blog.ianbicking.org
             : Write code, do good : http://topp.openplans.org/careers

From ken at stox.org  Tue Aug 21 06:21:39 2007
From: ken at stox.org (Kenneth P. Stox)
Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2007 23:21:39 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] Pizza providers update
In-Reply-To: <b571660a0708201207of95f0c1se9140538affedc51@mail.gmail.com>
References: <FBE61B6C5FE02547BBA6A1B324F2D6835A9EF2@portalserver2k6.roytalman.com>
	<1187299576.7766.60.camel@stox.dyndns.org>
	<3F9A667F-EA1F-49BA-8BD5-FCF28C694D7E@sent.com>
	<b571660a0708161536i3aeb8d27y80ef3ddaca9347d7@mail.gmail.com>
	<1187552390.7766.123.camel@stox.dyndns.org>
	<b571660a0708201207of95f0c1se9140538affedc51@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1187670099.1302.81.camel@stox.dyndns.org>

On Mon, 2007-08-20 at 14:07 -0500, Kumar McMillan wrote:
> 
> We have tried twice to work with a developer who had no Python
> experience, having him learn Python while implementing the project.

This is where you failed. It is unreasonable to expect a novice to the
language to implement a successful project on the first go round. With
rare exception, it might work out, but otherwise it is an invitation for
disaster. 

A successful strategy would involve having the novice programmer act in
role of an apprentice to a more senior developer. 

> It failed both times because we didn't have enough time to mentor the
> developers.  We had to scrap the code.  This might not always be the
> case, even with more or less time to mentor, but such a strategy is
> very risky ;)  If we were a bigger company we could probably do it
> better.  When I contracted briefly with IBM I noticed that they do
> this - they hire people who have limited [or even no] Java knowledge
> and they train them on the WebSphere product.

Your expectations were too high. If you had adapted a strategy where the
new developer was an apprentice to a senior developer, you would have
ended up with a productivity of ( picking some numbers ) 1.2 developers
on the first pass. 1.5 on the second, 1.8 on the third, 2 on the fourth.
Good developers are not made overnight, they need to age like a cheap
wine. ;->

> As with any language that wants to grow, Python needs more
> "switchers."  Perhaps more people should write those silly articles on
> "Moving from PHP to Python", or whatever ... or even going to other
> local user groups and presenting some kind of intro to python.  I see
> a lot of Java developers in Chicago switching to Ruby - perhaps it is
> the influence of Thoughtworks or 37 Signals, I don't know.

Well, I think it is more than that. Ruby developers are producing more
fun exciting sites. What's the last python site you saw that really
caught your eyes? We're not going to get the "switchers" until we find
something compelling to sell them on it. If we do, the line will be out
the door. 

To be blunt, we have become complacent and arrogant. This does not bode
well for the future of Python. We have lost the excitement that the
language garnered years ago. This is sad, as it is an incredibly clean
and extensible language.

That being said, I do sense a certain excitement with the approaching
PyCon 2008. We need to find a way to better leverage this excitement to
the benefit of the community. 

-Ken




From pfein at pobox.com  Tue Aug 21 14:59:35 2007
From: pfein at pobox.com (Pete)
Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2007 07:59:35 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] Pizza providers update
In-Reply-To: <1187670099.1302.81.camel@stox.dyndns.org>
References: <FBE61B6C5FE02547BBA6A1B324F2D6835A9EF2@portalserver2k6.roytalman.com>
	<b571660a0708201207of95f0c1se9140538affedc51@mail.gmail.com>
	<1187670099.1302.81.camel@stox.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <200708210759.36088.pfein@pobox.com>

On Monday August 20 2007 11:21 pm, Kenneth P. Stox wrote:
> To be blunt, we have become complacent and arrogant. This does not bode
> well for the future of Python. We have lost the excitement that the
> language garnered years ago. This is sad, as it is an incredibly clean
> and extensible language.

Oh, I dunno.  One of the things that appeals to me about the Python community 
is that it's generally 'chilly' (sry, ultimate frisbee slang for "laid-back, 
patient, thoughtful").  In the ~5 years I've been working with Python, I 
continue to be appreciative of the just-right pace the community sets for 
itself. Python continues to learn from the best innovations from elsewhere at 
a reasonable, non-panicking pace.  To cite just a few examples:

 * webframeworks - "Rails will p0wn us all!" vs. Django
 * unthreaded programming - "We need coroutines!" vs. yield-is-a-statement 
(yes, I realize nothing's come of this).
 * the language itself - Perl 6 vs. Py3k

I tend to find that most hardcore Python developers (and it's the *only* 
language I work in) are similarly relaxed, allowing the best solutions to 
mature like I'm told fine wine does (I drink beer. Right now!). As for those 
who haven't discovered Python's merits yet... well, either they'll see the 
light eventually or the rest of us will code them out of a job. ;-)   I guess 
my point is that Python has a large enough user base that it's not going 
away - the lack of hyperbolic buzz is a *good* thing in my book.

All hail Guido, creator of the 2nd best language for everything!

--Pete

PS - I actually wrote this last night & forgot to send.  Which is not to say I 
have some problem with drinking beer at 8 in the morning, just that I'm not 
doing so right now. ;-)

-- 
Peter Fein   ||   773-575-0694   ||   pfein at pobox.com
http://www.pobox.com/~pfein/   ||   PGP: 0xCCF6AE6B
irc: pfein at freenode.net   ||   jabber: peter.fein at gmail.com

From skip at pobox.com  Tue Aug 21 15:19:30 2007
From: skip at pobox.com (skip at pobox.com)
Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2007 08:19:30 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] Does anyone need help getting set up for the Google
	Sprint?
Message-ID: <18122.58978.779309.867817@montanaro.dyndns.org>

If you're going to the Google Sprint which starts tomorrow, do you need any
help with:

    * setting up Subversion?
    * checking out Python from the repository?
    * settling on one or more tasks to tackle?

I'll be there Wed-Fri from about 11:15 or 11:30.  If you plan to be there
earlier and will need some help, let me know.

Skip Montanaro


From mdipierro at cti.depaul.edu  Tue Aug 21 16:41:31 2007
From: mdipierro at cti.depaul.edu (Massimo Di Pierro)
Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2007 09:41:31 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] Web Frameworks?
In-Reply-To: <46CA6739.8080604@colorstudy.com>
References: <979B6115-A1DB-4E0F-904A-F5D619C27EDB@cti.depaul.edu>	<1187365600.6461.3.camel@localhost>	<1A2F1342-C395-4745-9AD3-867092D1B1CD@cti.depaul.edu>	<b571660a0708171313i652f6c0x426470103e2c3370@mail.gmail.com>
	<D6112D14-0D90-41EC-9E0F-A26F5FB28CF9@uchicago.edu>
	<46CA6739.8080604@colorstudy.com>
Message-ID: <9D07B38F-B862-4502-B089-CE07F4DC78A4@cti.depaul.edu>

I agree testing is important. My class on Python web framework is  
only 5 lectures and so I usually do not have much time for it.
We have two new intro CS courses on Python (Ljubomir Perkovic teaches  
them usually) and testing in python is probably covered there.

Massimo


On Aug 20, 2007, at 11:16 PM, Ian Bicking wrote:

> Ted Pollari wrote:
>> On Aug 17, 2007, at 1:13 PM, Kumar McMillan wrote:
>>
>>>  I've never even heard first hand of anyone learning
>>> unit testing from a CS program, although I don't doubt it's taught
>>> somewhere (Titus Brown must teach it).
>>
>>
>> He's a biologist isn't he?  I seem to remember him quipping about how
>> cs related stuff wasn't his primary area of interest.  But maybe,
>> hopefully he teaches something were he can flex his testing foo.
>
> Yeah, but I think he's teaching some CS classes now, somewhere in
> Michigan.  Massimo may find it useful to ask him about his thoughts.
>
>
> -- 
> Ian Bicking : ianb at colorstudy.com : http://blog.ianbicking.org
>              : Write code, do good : http://topp.openplans.org/careers
> _______________________________________________
> Chicago mailing list
> Chicago at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago


From ianb at colorstudy.com  Tue Aug 21 22:16:10 2007
From: ianb at colorstudy.com (Ian Bicking)
Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2007 15:16:10 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] September meeting: presentation?  Venues?
Message-ID: <46CB480A.2040904@colorstudy.com>

The time is coming to plan next month's meeting.

Does anyone have a presentation they'd like to give?

Does anyone have a venue they'd like to offer or suggest?

Thanks...

-- 
Ian Bicking : ianb at colorstudy.com : http://blog.ianbicking.org


From adrian at holovaty.com  Tue Aug 21 22:23:14 2007
From: adrian at holovaty.com (Adrian Holovaty)
Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2007 15:23:14 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] September meeting: presentation? Venues?
In-Reply-To: <46CB480A.2040904@colorstudy.com>
References: <46CB480A.2040904@colorstudy.com>
Message-ID: <a2eb1c260708211323u78d5febfreaf0473e79cf35e@mail.gmail.com>

On 8/21/07, Ian Bicking <ianb at colorstudy.com> wrote:
> The time is coming to plan next month's meeting.
>
> Does anyone have a presentation they'd like to give?

If it's Sept. 13, I can do a short presentation on templatemaker:

http://code.google.com/p/templatemaker/

Adrian

From dpratt at roytalman.com  Tue Aug 21 23:12:54 2007
From: dpratt at roytalman.com (Pratt, Doug)
Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2007 16:12:54 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] Python jobs -- Try number 2
Message-ID: <FBE61B6C5FE02547BBA6A1B324F2D6835AA2BC@portalserver2k6.headhunter.local>

I'm posting 2 positions that have come in this week that specifically
mention Python. They are not Python developer jobs per se. If you're
interested check them out. I wanted to add my 2 cents worth to the
discussion of growing the use of Python in development environments around
Chicago. I can only speak to my experience of our clients. They are
typically smaller companies who are more adapable than usual. They tend to
be open to innovations that improve productivity and the final results. They
would seem to be prime candidates for encouraging the use of Python. Would
it be acceptable to post positions which might be open to using Python but
don't mention it because they haven't experienced the advantages it
provides? What it takes is for Python advocates to work in their world and
to open their minds to what's possible.
 
Doug 
 
IT Executive Recruiter
Roy Talman & Associates
150 S. Wacker Dr. Suite 1300
Chicago IL 60606
Phone: 312-425-1313 x 131
Fax: 312-425-0100
dpratt at roytalman.com <mailto:dpratt at roytalman.com> 
www.roytalman.com
 
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From sgithens at caret.cam.ac.uk  Tue Aug 21 23:17:49 2007
From: sgithens at caret.cam.ac.uk (Steven Githens)
Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2007 22:17:49 +0100
Subject: [Chicago] September meeting: presentation?  Venues?
In-Reply-To: <46CB480A.2040904@colorstudy.com>
References: <46CB480A.2040904@colorstudy.com>
Message-ID: <46CB567D.3000601@caret.cam.ac.uk>

This might not be terribly interesting (since it runs on a jvm), but I 
could give a presentation of the side stuff I'm doing with Jython on my 
current project.

The stuff I work on is open source course management software written in 
Spring/Java.  As you can imagine, this tends to be pretty cumbersome 
stuff, so I wrote an ajax terminal shell for the system, and I use 
Jython to write most of the administration and utility commands.  We 
also weren't happy with any of the existing crappy Java web presentation 
frameworks, so we** rolled a new one from scratch that uses pure XHTML 
templating and lots and lots of Spring to abolish the large amounts of 
session state and other things that usually hog down java frameworks.  
I'm working on putting in Jython support for it so you can just add 
templates and *.py files and ignore the configuration that is required 
when writing new pages/widgets in raw java. ( Ideally, I'd like to 
eventually have support for this in Kawa, Scala, and JRuby too, but 
Jython is definately the first priority )

-Steve

** My coworkers actually wrote most of it. :)

Ian Bicking wrote:
> The time is coming to plan next month's meeting.
>
> Does anyone have a presentation they'd like to give?
>
> Does anyone have a venue they'd like to offer or suggest?
>
> Thanks...
>
>   


From fitz at red-bean.com  Tue Aug 21 23:40:24 2007
From: fitz at red-bean.com (Brian W. Fitzpatrick)
Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2007 16:40:24 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] September meeting: presentation? Venues?
In-Reply-To: <46CB480A.2040904@colorstudy.com>
References: <46CB480A.2040904@colorstudy.com>
Message-ID: <a5375ad50708211440n495d5652o73f8d3620d40c206@mail.gmail.com>

On 8/21/07, Ian Bicking <ianb at colorstudy.com> wrote:
> The time is coming to plan next month's meeting.
>
> Does anyone have a presentation they'd like to give?
>
> Does anyone have a venue they'd like to offer or suggest?

Google can host if you'd like.

-Fitz

From shekay at pobox.com  Wed Aug 22 00:17:00 2007
From: shekay at pobox.com (sheila miguez)
Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2007 17:17:00 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] September meeting: presentation? Venues?
In-Reply-To: <46CB567D.3000601@caret.cam.ac.uk>
References: <46CB480A.2040904@colorstudy.com>
	<46CB567D.3000601@caret.cam.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <a68ced640708211517r3e385a48x483a9bf53db35ab7@mail.gmail.com>

I think it sounds pretty cool but I'm biased.

On 8/21/07, Steven Githens <sgithens at caret.cam.ac.uk> wrote:
> This might not be terribly interesting (since it runs on a jvm), but I
> could give a presentation of the side stuff I'm doing with Jython on my
> current project.
>
> The stuff I work on is open source course management software written in
> Spring/Java.  As you can imagine, this tends to be pretty cumbersome
> stuff, so I wrote an ajax terminal shell for the system, and I use
> Jython to write most of the administration and utility commands.  We
> also weren't happy with any of the existing crappy Java web presentation
> frameworks, so we** rolled a new one from scratch that uses pure XHTML
> templating and lots and lots of Spring to abolish the large amounts of
> session state and other things that usually hog down java frameworks.
> I'm working on putting in Jython support for it so you can just add
> templates and *.py files and ignore the configuration that is required
> when writing new pages/widgets in raw java. ( Ideally, I'd like to
> eventually have support for this in Kawa, Scala, and JRuby too, but
> Jython is definately the first priority )
>
> -Steve
>
> ** My coworkers actually wrote most of it. :)
>
> Ian Bicking wrote:
> > The time is coming to plan next month's meeting.
> >
> > Does anyone have a presentation they'd like to give?
> >
> > Does anyone have a venue they'd like to offer or suggest?
> >
> > Thanks...
> >
> >
>
> _______________________________________________
> Chicago mailing list
> Chicago at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>


-- 
sheila

From peter at pchristensen.com  Wed Aug 22 01:08:11 2007
From: peter at pchristensen.com (Peter Christensen)
Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2007 18:08:11 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] September meeting: presentation? Venues?
Message-ID: <bc7dfb0b0708211608u26876c00nb906a730d0968061@mail.gmail.com>

+1 for templatemaker.  I saw it posted on ycnews a while ago but I didn't
realize you were in Chicago!

------------------------------------------------------
Peter Christensen
peter at pchristensen.com

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: "Adrian Holovaty" <adrian at holovaty.com>
To: "The Chicago Python Users Group" <chicago at python.org>
Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2007 15:23:14 -0500
Subject: Re: [Chicago] September meeting: presentation? Venues?
On 8/21/07, Ian Bicking <ianb at colorstudy.com> wrote:
> The time is coming to plan next month's meeting.
>
> Does anyone have a presentation they'd like to give?

If it's Sept. 13, I can do a short presentation on templatemaker:

http://code.google.com/p/templatemaker/

Adrian
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From ken at stox.org  Wed Aug 22 03:36:58 2007
From: ken at stox.org (Kenneth P. Stox)
Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2007 20:36:58 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] Python jobs -- Try number 2
In-Reply-To: <FBE61B6C5FE02547BBA6A1B324F2D6835AA2BC@portalserver2k6.headhunter.local>
References: <FBE61B6C5FE02547BBA6A1B324F2D6835AA2BC@portalserver2k6.headhunter.local>
Message-ID: <1187746618.7146.32.camel@stox.dyndns.org>

Well, since I seem to have taken the lead in this matter, I will reply.
Doug, please do not take my words as law in this matter, I am only
attempting to reflect what I believe to be in the best interests of the
group. As usual, if anyone disagrees, please pipe up!

On Tue, 2007-08-21 at 16:12 -0500, Pratt, Doug wrote:
> I'm posting 2 positions that have come in this week that specifically
> mention Python. They are not Python developer jobs per se. If you're
> interested check them out. 

I, for one don't see any problem with jobs that may involve python, but
are not python centric. As long as python is an positive attribute,
looks fine by me.

> I wanted to add my 2 cents worth to the discussion of growing the use
> of Python in development environments around Chicago. I can only speak
> to my experience of our clients. They are typically smaller companies
> who are more adapable than usual. They tend to be open to innovations
               ^^^^^^^^ Hmmm, you might want to get a mail client with a
working spell checker. There are some fine open source ones we can
recommend. ( Sorry, just ribbing you, I couldn't resist )

>  that improve productivity and the final results. They would seem to
> be prime candidates for encouraging the use of Python. Would it be
> acceptable to post positions which might be open to using Python but
> don't mention it because they haven't experienced the advantages it
> provides? 

Umm, in a word, NO! That is one darn slippery slope that you propose. I
might start programming in Visual Basic tomorrow. To keep things honest,
I would say that the word "python" has got to be in the listing, at the
very least.

> What it takes is for Python advocates to work in their world and to
> open their minds to what's possible.

Let me guess, Hal sent you to Dale Carnegie. Nice try, though.

BTW, of the two openings you enclosed, I think they both meet the
minimum acceptable criteria. Python is purely optional, and in neither
job is python a requirement, but is mentioned. I think they represent a
good lower limit. 

-Ken Stox
 ken at stox.org

Disclaimer: Although my words might accidentally reflect those of the
group, anybody who thinks I actually speak for the group probably needs
their head examined.




From kumar.mcmillan at gmail.com  Sat Aug 25 23:43:05 2007
From: kumar.mcmillan at gmail.com (Kumar McMillan)
Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2007 16:43:05 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] Web Frameworks?
In-Reply-To: <9D07B38F-B862-4502-B089-CE07F4DC78A4@cti.depaul.edu>
References: <979B6115-A1DB-4E0F-904A-F5D619C27EDB@cti.depaul.edu>
	<1187365600.6461.3.camel@localhost>
	<1A2F1342-C395-4745-9AD3-867092D1B1CD@cti.depaul.edu>
	<b571660a0708171313i652f6c0x426470103e2c3370@mail.gmail.com>
	<D6112D14-0D90-41EC-9E0F-A26F5FB28CF9@uchicago.edu>
	<46CA6739.8080604@colorstudy.com>
	<9D07B38F-B862-4502-B089-CE07F4DC78A4@cti.depaul.edu>
Message-ID: <b571660a0708251443w6dd0a94rb158df53c5ee0ad3@mail.gmail.com>

On 8/21/07, Massimo Di Pierro <mdipierro at cti.depaul.edu> wrote:
> I agree testing is important. My class on Python web framework is
> only 5 lectures and so I usually do not have much time for it.
> We have two new intro CS courses on Python (Ljubomir Perkovic teaches
> them usually) and testing in python is probably covered there.

I just met Atif Memon, a professor at Univ Of Maryland, during the
GTAC (Google Test Automation Conference).  He teaches classes
specifically on testing and didn't know of many others around the
country.  I thought this one was interesting: For the first part of a
graduate course the students build a large system, complete with unit
and functional tests, etc.  Then in the next part, they inherit the
crap code written by the last lot of students and add new features!  I
suggested that to make it more "real world" like he should remove all
the unit tests when delivering the inherited code :)

Now to go OT ... his talk with Adam Porter was pretty amazing:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=OiE9zRPD6ps
Among other things, he talks about his work on automatically
generating test cases for GUI apps.  It uses an algorithm to find all
the possible ways that GUI widgets can interact with each other.  He
took 3 sample apps from sourceforge and found about 10 bugs per app ;)

Great conference all around

-Kumar

From pfein at pobox.com  Mon Aug 27 17:04:38 2007
From: pfein at pobox.com (Pete)
Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2007 10:04:38 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] Free Books, etc
Message-ID: <200708271004.39079.pfein@pobox.com>

Hi-

I'm at the end of a major purge of material goods.  I've got a boatload of 
books to give away (actually, a laundry basket). Many of these are computer 
related - language specific (lisp, C++, etc.), theory, machine archictecture, 
etc..  If anyone would like these, or can suggest a good home before they go 
to Powell's or the Salvation Army, please contact me off-list.

Sorry for the lack of detail, but I'm super-busy.

-- 
Peter Fein   ||   773-575-0694   ||   pfein at pobox.com
http://www.pobox.com/~pfein/   ||   PGP: 0xCCF6AE6B
irc: pfein at freenode.net   ||   jabber: peter.fein at gmail.com

From jsudlow at gmail.com  Mon Aug 27 18:53:13 2007
From: jsudlow at gmail.com (Jon Sudlow)
Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2007 09:53:13 -0700
Subject: [Chicago] Free Books, etc
In-Reply-To: <200708271004.39079.pfein@pobox.com>
References: <200708271004.39079.pfein@pobox.com>
Message-ID: <eb9a21ad0708270953q40a64579k85bb26e949815da@mail.gmail.com>

Wow, I'm in college and am always up for extra books. Im interested in them,
C++ and LISP in particular. I think I know a few people including myself who
could benefit...

On 8/27/07, Pete <pfein at pobox.com> wrote:
>
> Hi-
>
> I'm at the end of a major purge of material goods.  I've got a boatload of
> books to give away (actually, a laundry basket). Many of these are
> computer
> related - language specific (lisp, C++, etc.), theory, machine
> archictecture,
> etc..  If anyone would like these, or can suggest a good home before they
> go
> to Powell's or the Salvation Army, please contact me off-list.
>
> Sorry for the lack of detail, but I'm super-busy.
>
> --
> Peter Fein   ||   773-575-0694   ||   pfein at pobox.com
> http://www.pobox.com/~pfein/   ||   PGP: 0xCCF6AE6B
> irc: pfein at freenode.net   ||   jabber: peter.fein at gmail.com
> _______________________________________________
> Chicago mailing list
> Chicago at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>



-- 
Jon Sudlow
3225 Foster Avenue
Chicago, Il
311 Solburg Hall
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From cwebber at imagescape.com  Tue Aug 28 16:40:47 2007
From: cwebber at imagescape.com (Christopher Allan Webber)
Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2007 09:40:47 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] Free Books, etc
In-Reply-To: <eb9a21ad0708270953q40a64579k85bb26e949815da@mail.gmail.com> (Jon
	Sudlow's message of "Mon, 27 Aug 2007 09:53:13 -0700")
References: <200708271004.39079.pfein@pobox.com>
	<eb9a21ad0708270953q40a64579k85bb26e949815da@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <6ylkbvg1sg.fsf@imagepc03.rd.imagescape.com>

You could always haul them to the next ChiPy meeting, I'm sure people
will gobble them up. :)

"Jon Sudlow" <jsudlow at gmail.com> writes:

> Wow, I'm in college and am always up for extra books. Im interested in
> them, C++ and LISP in particular. I think I know a few people including
> myself who could benefit...
>
> On 8/27/07, Pete <[1]pfein at pobox.com> wrote:
>
>   Hi-
>
>   I'm at the end of a major purge of material goods.  I've got a boatload
>   of
>   books to give away (actually, a laundry basket). Many of these are
>   computer
>   related - language specific (lisp, C++, etc.), theory, machine
>   archictecture,
>   etc..  If anyone would like these, or can suggest a good home before
>   they go
>   to Powell's or the Salvation Army, please contact me off-list.
>
>   Sorry for the lack of detail, but I'm super-busy.
>
>   --
>   Peter Fein   ||   773-575-0694   ||   [2]pfein at pobox.com
>   [3]http://www.pobox.com/~pfein/   ||   PGP: 0xCCF6AE6B
>   irc: [4]pfein at freenode.net   ||   jabber: [5]peter.fein at gmail.com
>   _______________________________________________
>   Chicago mailing list
>   [6]Chicago at python.org
>   [7]http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>
> --
> Jon Sudlow
> 3225 Foster Avenue
> Chicago, Il
> 311 Solburg Hall
>
> References
>
> Visible links
> 1. mailto:pfein at pobox.com
> 2. mailto:pfein at pobox.com
> 3. http://www.pobox.com/~pfein/
> 4. mailto:pfein at freenode.net
> 5. mailto:peter.fein at gmail.com
> 6. mailto:Chicago at python.org
> 7. http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
> _______________________________________________
> Chicago mailing list
> Chicago at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago

From pfein at pobox.com  Tue Aug 28 17:12:54 2007
From: pfein at pobox.com (Pete)
Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2007 10:12:54 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] Free Books, etc
In-Reply-To: <6ylkbvg1sg.fsf@imagepc03.rd.imagescape.com>
References: <200708271004.39079.pfein@pobox.com>
	<eb9a21ad0708270953q40a64579k85bb26e949815da@mail.gmail.com>
	<6ylkbvg1sg.fsf@imagepc03.rd.imagescape.com>
Message-ID: <200708281012.55103.pfein@pobox.com>

On Tuesday August 28 2007 9:40 am, Christopher Allan Webber wrote:
> You could always haul them to the next ChiPy meeting, I'm sure people
> will gobble them up. :)

The books have been taken.

Carl (the taker) hinted that he might bring the ones he doesn't want to the 
next meeting.  Yet another reason to attend.

--Pete

-- 
Peter Fein   ||   773-575-0694   ||   pfein at pobox.com
http://www.pobox.com/~pfein/   ||   PGP: 0xCCF6AE6B
irc: pfein at freenode.net   ||   jabber: peter.fein at gmail.com

From fitz at red-bean.com  Tue Aug 28 17:31:22 2007
From: fitz at red-bean.com (Brian W. Fitzpatrick)
Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2007 10:31:22 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] September meeting: presentation? Venues?
In-Reply-To: <a5375ad50708211440n495d5652o73f8d3620d40c206@mail.gmail.com>
References: <46CB480A.2040904@colorstudy.com>
	<a5375ad50708211440n495d5652o73f8d3620d40c206@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <a5375ad50708280831p1ba52029x118c4168f22ce1c1@mail.gmail.com>

On 8/21/07, Brian W. Fitzpatrick <fitz at red-bean.com> wrote:
> On 8/21/07, Ian Bicking <ianb at colorstudy.com> wrote:
> > The time is coming to plan next month's meeting.
> >
> > Does anyone have a presentation they'd like to give?
> >
> > Does anyone have a venue they'd like to offer or suggest?
>
> Google can host if you'd like.

Ping?

From bray at sent.com  Tue Aug 28 17:39:26 2007
From: bray at sent.com (Brian Ray)
Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2007 10:39:26 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] September meeting: presentation? Venues?
In-Reply-To: <a5375ad50708280831p1ba52029x118c4168f22ce1c1@mail.gmail.com>
References: <46CB480A.2040904@colorstudy.com>
	<a5375ad50708211440n495d5652o73f8d3620d40c206@mail.gmail.com>
	<a5375ad50708280831p1ba52029x118c4168f22ce1c1@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <9B504C9B-002C-456A-87E1-6BFF6E27EF1E@sent.com>


On Aug 28, 2007, at 10:31 AM, Brian W. Fitzpatrick wrote:

> On 8/21/07, Brian W. Fitzpatrick <fitz at red-bean.com> wrote:
>> On 8/21/07, Ian Bicking <ianb at colorstudy.com> wrote:
>>> The time is coming to plan next month's meeting.
>>>
>>> Does anyone have a presentation they'd like to give?
>>>
>>> Does anyone have a venue they'd like to offer or suggest?
>>
>> Google can host if you'd like.
>
> Ping?


I already put Google down for our venue on the wiki. http://chipy.org

And it sounds like we already have two presenters. Ian is organizing,  
but he may be out of town but back in time.  I am sure he will touch  
base with you once he sees this message on the list.

BTW, speaking of wiki, Brantley has kindly offered to fix up our wiki  
with the art I sort of shoved in there. So changes will be seen soon.  
Maybe, after PyCon, because he also has volunteered to do this.


Brian Ray
bray at sent.com
http://kazavoo.com/blog



From carl at personnelware.com  Tue Aug 28 18:01:19 2007
From: carl at personnelware.com (Carl Karsten)
Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2007 11:01:19 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] Free Books, etc
In-Reply-To: <200708281012.55103.pfein@pobox.com>
References: <200708271004.39079.pfein@pobox.com>	<eb9a21ad0708270953q40a64579k85bb26e949815da@mail.gmail.com>	<6ylkbvg1sg.fsf@imagepc03.rd.imagescape.com>
	<200708281012.55103.pfein@pobox.com>
Message-ID: <46D446CF.90405@personnelware.com>

Pete wrote:
> On Tuesday August 28 2007 9:40 am, Christopher Allan Webber wrote:
>> You could always haul them to the next ChiPy meeting, I'm sure people
>> will gobble them up. :)
> 
> The books have been taken.
> 
> Carl (the taker) hinted that he might bring the ones he doesn't want to the 
> next meeting.  Yet another reason to attend.

I didn't even like carrying 1/2 of them 50' to my car.

I'll post a few pics of the spines.  if you seem something you like, let me know 
and i'll bring it.

Carl K

From fitz at red-bean.com  Tue Aug 28 22:20:57 2007
From: fitz at red-bean.com (Brian W. Fitzpatrick)
Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2007 15:20:57 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] September meeting: presentation? Venues?
In-Reply-To: <9B504C9B-002C-456A-87E1-6BFF6E27EF1E@sent.com>
References: <46CB480A.2040904@colorstudy.com>
	<a5375ad50708211440n495d5652o73f8d3620d40c206@mail.gmail.com>
	<a5375ad50708280831p1ba52029x118c4168f22ce1c1@mail.gmail.com>
	<9B504C9B-002C-456A-87E1-6BFF6E27EF1E@sent.com>
Message-ID: <a5375ad50708281320s3250588cgb3e1a6e339e9871d@mail.gmail.com>

OK.  I'll plan on hosting.

-Fitz

On 8/28/07, Brian Ray <bray at sent.com> wrote:
>
> On Aug 28, 2007, at 10:31 AM, Brian W. Fitzpatrick wrote:
>
> > On 8/21/07, Brian W. Fitzpatrick <fitz at red-bean.com> wrote:
> >> On 8/21/07, Ian Bicking <ianb at colorstudy.com> wrote:
> >>> The time is coming to plan next month's meeting.
> >>>
> >>> Does anyone have a presentation they'd like to give?
> >>>
> >>> Does anyone have a venue they'd like to offer or suggest?
> >>
> >> Google can host if you'd like.
> >
> > Ping?
>
>
> I already put Google down for our venue on the wiki. http://chipy.org
>
> And it sounds like we already have two presenters. Ian is organizing,
> but he may be out of town but back in time.  I am sure he will touch
> base with you once he sees this message on the list.
>
> BTW, speaking of wiki, Brantley has kindly offered to fix up our wiki
> with the art I sort of shoved in there. So changes will be seen soon.
> Maybe, after PyCon, because he also has volunteered to do this.
>
>
> Brian Ray
> bray at sent.com
> http://kazavoo.com/blog
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Chicago mailing list
> Chicago at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>
>

From dpratt at roytalman.com  Tue Aug 28 22:54:09 2007
From: dpratt at roytalman.com (Pratt, Doug)
Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2007 15:54:09 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] Developer positions -- This week
Message-ID: <FBE61B6C5FE02547BBA6A1B324F2D6835AA86B@portalserver2k6.headhunter.local>

Disclaimer -- These are not specifically Python jobs. They are object
oriented development positions with very good firms. The challenge is to
open up these companies both to Open Source development specifically and
Python use where appropriate. We do still have Python specific positions,
but I'm posting these in order to give people different options.
 
Please contact me about Python specific jobs, if you're interested.
 
Doug Pratt
 
IT Executive Recruiter
Roy Talman & Associates
150 S. Wacker Dr. Suite 1300
Chicago IL 60606
Phone: 312-425-1313 x 131
Fax: 312-425-0100
dpratt at roytalman.com <mailto:dpratt at roytalman.com> 
www.roytalman.com
 
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From fitz at red-bean.com  Tue Aug 28 23:08:39 2007
From: fitz at red-bean.com (Brian W. Fitzpatrick)
Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2007 16:08:39 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] Developer positions -- This week
In-Reply-To: <FBE61B6C5FE02547BBA6A1B324F2D6835AA86B@portalserver2k6.headhunter.local>
References: <FBE61B6C5FE02547BBA6A1B324F2D6835AA86B@portalserver2k6.headhunter.local>
Message-ID: <a5375ad50708281408u7c25a8dv2efdb15bd06adef@mail.gmail.com>

On 8/28/07, Pratt, Doug <dpratt at roytalman.com> wrote:
>
>
> Disclaimer -- These are not specifically Python jobs. They are object
> oriented development positions with very good firms. The challenge is to
> open up these companies both to Open Source development specifically and
> Python use where appropriate.

Sweet!  I'm going to write a gateway to send everything from
google.com/jobs to this list.  That should challenge folks to open up
Google to more Open Source development specifically and Python use
where appropriate.

-Fitz

From dpratt at roytalman.com  Tue Aug 28 23:16:57 2007
From: dpratt at roytalman.com (Pratt, Doug)
Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2007 16:16:57 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] Developer positions -- This week
Message-ID: <FBE61B6C5FE02547BBA6A1B324F2D6835AA87B@portalserver2k6.headhunter.local>

Isn't Google already there? 


IT Executive Recruiter
Roy Talman & Associates
150 S. Wacker Dr. Suite 1300
Chicago IL 60606
Phone: 312-425-1313 x 131
Fax: 312-425-0100
dpratt at roytalman.com
www.roytalman.com

-----Original Message-----
From: Brian W. Fitzpatrick [mailto:fitz at red-bean.com] 
Sent: Tuesday, August 28, 2007 4:09 PM
To: The Chicago Python Users Group
Subject: Re: [Chicago] Developer positions -- This week

On 8/28/07, Pratt, Doug <dpratt at roytalman.com> wrote:
>
>
> Disclaimer -- These are not specifically Python jobs. They are object 
> oriented development positions with very good firms. The challenge is 
> to open up these companies both to Open Source development 
> specifically and Python use where appropriate.

Sweet!  I'm going to write a gateway to send everything from google.com/jobs
to this list.  That should challenge folks to open up Google to more Open
Source development specifically and Python use where appropriate.

-Fitz
_______________________________________________
Chicago mailing list
Chicago at python.org
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago

From fitz at red-bean.com  Tue Aug 28 23:20:28 2007
From: fitz at red-bean.com (Brian W. Fitzpatrick)
Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2007 16:20:28 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] Developer positions -- This week
In-Reply-To: <FBE61B6C5FE02547BBA6A1B324F2D6835AA87B@portalserver2k6.headhunter.local>
References: <FBE61B6C5FE02547BBA6A1B324F2D6835AA87B@portalserver2k6.headhunter.local>
Message-ID: <a5375ad50708281420v998c37aq8b70ff82c54c5da2@mail.gmail.com>

On 8/28/07, Pratt, Doug <dpratt at roytalman.com> wrote:
> Isn't Google already there?

My point was that you asked last week if sending non-Python-related
jobs to the list was OK, and you got back one answer with a very clear
"NO".  Now here you are posting Java jobs to a Python list.  At this
rate, this list will be overrun with recruiters posting every job
under the sun.
Not cool.  Not cool at all.

-Fitz

From dpratt at roytalman.com  Tue Aug 28 23:31:16 2007
From: dpratt at roytalman.com (Pratt, Doug)
Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2007 16:31:16 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] Developer positions -- This week
Message-ID: <FBE61B6C5FE02547BBA6A1B324F2D6835AA888@portalserver2k6.headhunter.local>

Brian,

I also got responses from people who were interested in the jobs. Two of
them have visited our offices. I plan to accept your concerns and only post
Python jobs in the future. I do see how this could open the floodgates.

Doug 


IT Executive Recruiter
Roy Talman & Associates
150 S. Wacker Dr. Suite 1300
Chicago IL 60606
Phone: 312-425-1313 x 131
Fax: 312-425-0100
dpratt at roytalman.com
www.roytalman.com

-----Original Message-----
From: Brian W. Fitzpatrick [mailto:fitz at red-bean.com] 
Sent: Tuesday, August 28, 2007 4:20 PM
To: The Chicago Python Users Group
Subject: Re: [Chicago] Developer positions -- This week

On 8/28/07, Pratt, Doug <dpratt at roytalman.com> wrote:
> Isn't Google already there?

My point was that you asked last week if sending non-Python-related jobs to
the list was OK, and you got back one answer with a very clear "NO".  Now
here you are posting Java jobs to a Python list.  At this rate, this list
will be overrun with recruiters posting every job under the sun.
Not cool.  Not cool at all.

-Fitz
_______________________________________________
Chicago mailing list
Chicago at python.org
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago

From bray at sent.com  Tue Aug 28 23:29:24 2007
From: bray at sent.com (Brian Ray)
Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2007 16:29:24 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] Developer positions -- This week
In-Reply-To: <FBE61B6C5FE02547BBA6A1B324F2D6835AA86B@portalserver2k6.headhunter.local>
References: <FBE61B6C5FE02547BBA6A1B324F2D6835AA86B@portalserver2k6.headhunter.local>
Message-ID: <DD1F8F81-0767-4EB9-91D6-4FC2A7952A62@sent.com>

Remember Doug:

Python specific jobs, only. please.

To be more specific, each listing should contain the word "Python,"  
unless of course the job has something to do with a comedy sketch or  
a snake.

Thanks,

Brian Ray
bray at sent.com
http://kazavoo.com/blog



From ken at stox.org  Tue Aug 28 23:53:47 2007
From: ken at stox.org (Kenneth P. Stox)
Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2007 16:53:47 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] Developer positions -- This week
In-Reply-To: <FBE61B6C5FE02547BBA6A1B324F2D6835AA888@portalserver2k6.headhunter.local>
References: <FBE61B6C5FE02547BBA6A1B324F2D6835AA888@portalserver2k6.headhunter.local>
Message-ID: <1188338027.8307.54.camel@stox.dyndns.org>

On Tue, 2007-08-28 at 16:31 -0500, Pratt, Doug wrote:
> Brian,
> 
> I also got responses from people who were interested in the jobs. Two of
> them have visited our offices. 

Damn it, Man! This is exactly the mindset of a spammer, "I got
responses, therefore it's OK." I bet spammers get plenty of responses to
419 scams, but that doesn't make it right or acceptable behavior. 

To make it CRYSTAL CLEAR, if the job posting does mention python, it is
unacceptable.

> I plan to accept your concerns and only post
> Python jobs in the future. I do see how this could open the floodgates.

Well, how generous of you. After completely ignoring prior warning.
Whether or not you "accept" it is optional. You will follow the simple
criteria for participating in this group, or you will leave.

-Ken Stox
 ken at stox.org

Disclaimer: As usual, I speak my opinion. These opinions may, or may
not, correlate with those of the entire community. If anyone disagrees,
please say so. 




From rcriii at ramsdells.net  Tue Aug 28 23:50:16 2007
From: rcriii at ramsdells.net (rcriii at ramsdells.net)
Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2007 15:50:16 -0600 (MDT)
Subject: [Chicago] Developer positions -- This week
In-Reply-To: <DD1F8F81-0767-4EB9-91D6-4FC2A7952A62@sent.com>
References: <FBE61B6C5FE02547BBA6A1B324F2D6835AA86B@portalserver2k6.headhunter.local>
	<DD1F8F81-0767-4EB9-91D6-4FC2A7952A62@sent.com>
Message-ID: <2671.12.20.83.70.1188337816.squirrel@mail.npsis.com>


> unless of course the job has something to do with a comedy sketch or
> a snake.

Because if we allow that we open the floodgates to Chris.

Robert


From bradyc at google.com  Wed Aug 29 00:11:45 2007
From: bradyc at google.com (Brady Cox)
Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2007 17:11:45 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] Developer positions -- This week
In-Reply-To: <2671.12.20.83.70.1188337816.squirrel@mail.npsis.com>
References: <FBE61B6C5FE02547BBA6A1B324F2D6835AA86B@portalserver2k6.headhunter.local>
	<DD1F8F81-0767-4EB9-91D6-4FC2A7952A62@sent.com>
	<2671.12.20.83.70.1188337816.squirrel@mail.npsis.com>
Message-ID: <2dfd89af0708281511j4243e297l2a2380f574e38e31@mail.gmail.com>

Strike two.

On 8/28/07, rcriii at ramsdells.net <rcriii at ramsdells.net> wrote:
>
>
> > unless of course the job has something to do with a comedy sketch or
> > a snake.
>
> Because if we allow that we open the floodgates to Chris.
>
> Robert
>
> _______________________________________________
> Chicago mailing list
> Chicago at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>



-- 
Brady Cox
Google Chicago
Datacenter Artisan/Professional Owning Critic

Any dissemination, distribution or other use of the contents of this message
by anyone other than the intended recipient is strictly prohibited without
written consent from Major League Baseball.
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From ken at stox.org  Wed Aug 29 00:26:51 2007
From: ken at stox.org (Kenneth P. Stox)
Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2007 17:26:51 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] Developer positions -- This week
In-Reply-To: <1188338027.8307.54.camel@stox.dyndns.org>
References: <FBE61B6C5FE02547BBA6A1B324F2D6835AA888@portalserver2k6.headhunter.local>
	<1188338027.8307.54.camel@stox.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <1188340011.8307.65.camel@stox.dyndns.org>

On Tue, 2007-08-28 at 16:53 -0500, Kenneth P. Stox wrote:
> To make it CRYSTAL CLEAR, if the job posting does mention python, it is
> unacceptable.

Major ooops there. Make that if the job posting DOES NOT mention python,
it is unacceptable.


From maney at two14.net  Wed Aug 29 03:47:45 2007
From: maney at two14.net (Martin Maney)
Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2007 20:47:45 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] Developer positions -- This week
In-Reply-To: <1188338027.8307.54.camel@stox.dyndns.org>
References: <FBE61B6C5FE02547BBA6A1B324F2D6835AA888@portalserver2k6.headhunter.local>
	<1188338027.8307.54.camel@stox.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <20070829014745.GB15609@furrr.two14.net>

On Tue, Aug 28, 2007 at 04:53:47PM -0500, Kenneth P. Stox wrote:
> To make it CRYSTAL CLEAR, if the job posting does mention python, it is
> unacceptable.

Post in haste, repent at leisure.

Yeah, I know you posted a correction.  Didn't see an apology for the
egregious name-calling, though.  Perhaps you need to practice the
thoughtful pause before posting?

-- 
I will unshutter my eyes
    and go back to the scene.
I will open my heart to a blank page
    and interview the witnesses.
                        John M. Ford


From emperorcezar at gmail.com  Wed Aug 29 07:43:13 2007
From: emperorcezar at gmail.com (Adam Jenkins)
Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2007 00:43:13 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] Developer positions -- This week
In-Reply-To: <20070829014745.GB15609@furrr.two14.net>
References: <FBE61B6C5FE02547BBA6A1B324F2D6835AA888@portalserver2k6.headhunter.local>
	<1188338027.8307.54.camel@stox.dyndns.org>
	<20070829014745.GB15609@furrr.two14.net>
Message-ID: <58a5f2220708282243m48d24f5et4d9d7db74a88897f@mail.gmail.com>

On 8/28/07, Martin Maney <maney at two14.net> wrote:
>
> On Tue, Aug 28, 2007 at 04:53:47PM -0500, Kenneth P. Stox wrote:
> > To make it CRYSTAL CLEAR, if the job posting does mention python, it is
> > unacceptable.
>
> Post in haste, repent at leisure.
>
> Yeah, I know you posted a correction.  Didn't see an apology for the
> egregious name-calling, though.  Perhaps you need to practice the
> thoughtful pause before posting?


I didn't see any name calling. I saw "man", and the insinuation that he was
a spammer. Which in the context, maybe mean, but warranted.


--
> I will unshutter my eyes
>     and go back to the scene.
> I will open my heart to a blank page
>     and interview the witnesses.
>                         John M. Ford
>
> _______________________________________________
> Chicago mailing list
> Chicago at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>



-- 
---------------------------------------
Adam Jenkins
emperorcezar at gmail.com
312-399-5161
---------------------------------------
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From mdipierro at cti.depaul.edu  Wed Aug 29 08:54:04 2007
From: mdipierro at cti.depaul.edu (Massimo Di Pierro)
Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2007 01:54:04 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] exec saved compiled code
In-Reply-To: <9B504C9B-002C-456A-87E1-6BFF6E27EF1E@sent.com>
References: <46CB480A.2040904@colorstudy.com>
	<a5375ad50708211440n495d5652o73f8d3620d40c206@mail.gmail.com>
	<a5375ad50708280831p1ba52029x118c4168f22ce1c1@mail.gmail.com>
	<9B504C9B-002C-456A-87E1-6BFF6E27EF1E@sent.com>
Message-ID: <1ECA808A-6D27-4850-BD1B-62DFE588D979@cti.depaul.edu>


Hello,

I am hoping one of you can help me with this.

EXAMPLE:

environment={'x':3}
open('a.py','w').write('print x')
import py_compile,os
exec(open('a.py','r').read()) in environment ### prints 3 OK!
py_compile.compile('a.py')
os.unlink('a.py')
exec(open('a.pyc','r').read()) in environment ### does not work

QUESTION: how do exec a.pyc into environment so that it prints 3? Is  
it possible to do it?

Massimo

From cstejerean at gmail.com  Wed Aug 29 09:28:33 2007
From: cstejerean at gmail.com (Cosmin Stejerean)
Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2007 02:28:33 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] exec saved compiled code
In-Reply-To: <1ECA808A-6D27-4850-BD1B-62DFE588D979@cti.depaul.edu>
References: <46CB480A.2040904@colorstudy.com>
	<a5375ad50708211440n495d5652o73f8d3620d40c206@mail.gmail.com>
	<a5375ad50708280831p1ba52029x118c4168f22ce1c1@mail.gmail.com>
	<9B504C9B-002C-456A-87E1-6BFF6E27EF1E@sent.com>
	<1ECA808A-6D27-4850-BD1B-62DFE588D979@cti.depaul.edu>
Message-ID: <276266d0708290028m567e02a8v41eb2bf8b790640b@mail.gmail.com>

I'm not sure if I understand what's going on with the environment = {} part
so I'm not sure if my solution to your problem is correct but here is what I
think is wrong. As far as I can tell exec can take either a string or a code
object. exec(open('a.py','r').read()) works because you are reading the code
from a file (it could have been any other file extension) and exec is
parsing it.

exec(open('a.pyc','r').read()) this however reads the bytecode as a string
and passes it to exec. This is probably not what you want (and most likely
won't work). One solution is to simply import a, but I'm guessing that's not
what you want either. The other option is to not use py_compile but use the
compile function and pickle as follows

c = compile("print x", '<string>', 'exec')

now you have a code object that you can execute

exec(c)

If you pickle this code object to a file you will be able to read it and run
it (then again why not pickle the original string??). The problem is pickle
won't pickle code objects. But apparently you can use a little trick around
that (see
http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-list/2002-August/161661.html)

Is this at least close to what you were looking for?

- Cosmin

On 8/29/07, Massimo Di Pierro <mdipierro at cti.depaul.edu> wrote:
>
>
> Hello,
>
> I am hoping one of you can help me with this.
>
> EXAMPLE:
>
> environment={'x':3}
> open('a.py','w').write('print x')
> import py_compile,os
> exec(open('a.py','r').read()) in environment ### prints 3 OK!
> py_compile.compile(' a.py')
> os.unlink('a.py')
> exec(open('a.pyc','r').read()) in environment ### does not work
>
> QUESTION: how do exec a.pyc into environment so that it prints 3? Is
> it possible to do it?
>
> Massimo
> _______________________________________________
> Chicago mailing list
> Chicago at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>
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From mdipierro at cti.depaul.edu  Wed Aug 29 14:59:35 2007
From: mdipierro at cti.depaul.edu (Massimo Di Pierro)
Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2007 07:59:35 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] exec saved compiled code
In-Reply-To: <276266d0708290028m567e02a8v41eb2bf8b790640b@mail.gmail.com>
References: <46CB480A.2040904@colorstudy.com>
	<a5375ad50708211440n495d5652o73f8d3620d40c206@mail.gmail.com>
	<a5375ad50708280831p1ba52029x118c4168f22ce1c1@mail.gmail.com>
	<9B504C9B-002C-456A-87E1-6BFF6E27EF1E@sent.com>
	<1ECA808A-6D27-4850-BD1B-62DFE588D979@cti.depaul.edu>
	<276266d0708290028m567e02a8v41eb2bf8b790640b@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <41D570F6-94A9-4BD5-AC05-089F09F52DBE@cti.depaul.edu>

almost... but I want to be able to save c and reload it before the  
exec. It appears c cannot be picked.

Massimo

On Aug 29, 2007, at 2:28 AM, Cosmin Stejerean wrote:

> I'm not sure if I understand what's going on with the environment =  
> {} part so I'm not sure if my solution to your problem is correct  
> but here is what I think is wrong. As far as I can tell exec can  
> take either a string or a code object. exec(open(' a.py','r').read 
> ()) works because you are reading the code from a file (it could  
> have been any other file extension) and exec is parsing it.
>
> exec(open('a.pyc','r').read()) this however reads the bytecode as a  
> string and passes it to exec. This is probably not what you want  
> (and most likely won't work). One solution is to simply import a,  
> but I'm guessing that's not what you want either. The other option  
> is to not use py_compile but use the compile function and pickle as  
> follows
>
> c = compile("print x", '<string>', 'exec')
>
> now you have a code object that you can execute
>
> exec(c)
>
> If you pickle this code object to a file you will be able to read  
> it and run it (then again why not pickle the original string??).  
> The problem is pickle won't pickle code objects. But apparently you  
> can use a little trick around that (see http://mail.python.org/ 
> pipermail/python-list/2002-August/161661.html)
>
> Is this at least close to what you were looking for?
>
> - Cosmin
>
> On 8/29/07, Massimo Di Pierro <mdipierro at cti.depaul.edu > wrote:
>
> Hello,
>
> I am hoping one of you can help me with this.
>
> EXAMPLE:
>
> environment={'x':3}
> open('a.py','w').write('print x')
> import py_compile,os
> exec(open('a.py','r').read()) in environment ### prints 3 OK!
> py_compile.compile(' a.py')
> os.unlink('a.py')
> exec(open('a.pyc','r').read()) in environment ### does not work
>
> QUESTION: how do exec a.pyc into environment so that it prints 3? Is
> it possible to do it?
>
> Massimo
> _______________________________________________
> Chicago mailing list
> Chicago at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>
> _______________________________________________
> Chicago mailing list
> Chicago at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago

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From varmaa at gmail.com  Wed Aug 29 16:20:53 2007
From: varmaa at gmail.com (Atul Varma)
Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2007 09:20:53 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] exec saved compiled code
In-Reply-To: <41D570F6-94A9-4BD5-AC05-089F09F52DBE@cti.depaul.edu>
References: <46CB480A.2040904@colorstudy.com>
	<a5375ad50708211440n495d5652o73f8d3620d40c206@mail.gmail.com>
	<a5375ad50708280831p1ba52029x118c4168f22ce1c1@mail.gmail.com>
	<9B504C9B-002C-456A-87E1-6BFF6E27EF1E@sent.com>
	<1ECA808A-6D27-4850-BD1B-62DFE588D979@cti.depaul.edu>
	<276266d0708290028m567e02a8v41eb2bf8b790640b@mail.gmail.com>
	<41D570F6-94A9-4BD5-AC05-089F09F52DBE@cti.depaul.edu>
Message-ID: <361b27370708290720v773fc9e4pbd841e24c8b1fb9d@mail.gmail.com>

I believe you may want to use marshal instead of pickle.  In fact,
.pyc files are actually just marshalled code objects with a bit of
header information at the front--specifically, a 4-byte "magic number"
followed by a last-modified-timestamp of the source .py file.

Going back to your original example, loading a .pyc file can be done like so:

  # Compile the .pyc file (this is unchanged from your original post)
  environment={'x':3}
  open('a.py','w').write('print x')
  import py_compile,os
  exec(open('a.py','r').read()) in environment ### prints 3 OK!
  py_compile.compile('a.py')
  os.unlink('a.py')

  # Now load the .pyc file.
  f = open( "a.pyc", "rb" )
  pycData = f.read()
  f.close()

  # Optional: read the magic number and ensure that it's what we expect
  # for our version of Python.
  import imp
  magic = pycData[:4]
  assert magic == imp.get_magic()

  # Optional: Get the last modified time of the original .py source,
to tell if we're in
  # sync with the compiled version of the latest version of the .py
file.  At least,
  # that's what I *think* this is for...
  mtime = pycData[4:8]
  # Well, actually, we can't do any comparison because we've deleted the
  # original .py file, so scratch that. :)

  # Read the actual marshalled code object and unmarshal it.
  codeBytes = pycData[8:]
  code = marshal.loads( codeBytes )

  # execute the code.
  exec code in environment

Note that more needs to be done in that last step if you actually want
to set up a real module (e.g., if you're creating a custom
importer--see PEP 302 for more information).

It's also interesting to note that the .pyc file format isn't
documented in prose anywhere, so the following source code can be used
to determine it:

  http://svn.python.org/projects/python/trunk/Python/import.c

I hope this is helpful.

- Atul

On 8/29/07, Massimo Di Pierro <mdipierro at cti.depaul.edu> wrote:
>
> almost... but I want to be able to save c and reload it before the exec. It
> appears c cannot be picked.
>
> Massimo
>
>
> On Aug 29, 2007, at 2:28 AM, Cosmin Stejerean wrote:
> I'm not sure if I understand what's going on with the environment = {} part
> so I'm not sure if my solution to your problem is correct but here is what I
> think is wrong. As far as I can tell exec can take either a string or a code
> object. exec(open(' a.py','r').read()) works because you are reading the
> code from a file (it could have been any other file extension) and exec is
> parsing it.
>
> exec(open('a.pyc','r').read()) this however reads the bytecode as a string
> and passes it to exec. This is probably not what you want (and most likely
> won't work). One solution is to simply import a, but I'm guessing that's not
> what you want either. The other option is to not use py_compile but use the
> compile function and pickle as follows
>
> c = compile("print x", '<string>', 'exec')
>
> now you have a code object that you can execute
>
> exec(c)
>
> If you pickle this code object to a file you will be able to read it and run
> it (then again why not pickle the original string??). The problem is pickle
> won't pickle code objects. But apparently you can use a little trick around
> that (see
> http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-list/2002-August/161661.html)
>
> Is this at least close to what you were looking for?
>
> - Cosmin
>
> On 8/29/07, Massimo Di Pierro <mdipierro at cti.depaul.edu > wrote:
> >
> > Hello,
> >
> > I am hoping one of you can help me with this.
> >
> > EXAMPLE:
> >
> > environment={'x':3}
> > open('a.py','w').write('print x')
> > import py_compile,os
> > exec(open('a.py','r').read()) in environment ### prints 3 OK!
> > py_compile.compile(' a.py')
> > os.unlink('a.py')
> > exec(open('a.pyc','r').read()) in environment ### does not work
> >
> > QUESTION: how do exec a.pyc into environment so that it prints 3? Is
> > it possible to do it?
> >
> > Massimo
> > _______________________________________________
> > Chicago mailing list
> > Chicago at python.org
> > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
> >
>
> _______________________________________________
> Chicago mailing list
> Chicago at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>
> _______________________________________________
> Chicago mailing list
> Chicago at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>
>

From mdipierro at cti.depaul.edu  Wed Aug 29 17:57:19 2007
From: mdipierro at cti.depaul.edu (Massimo Di Pierro)
Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2007 10:57:19 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] exec saved compiled code
In-Reply-To: <361b27370708290720v773fc9e4pbd841e24c8b1fb9d@mail.gmail.com>
References: <46CB480A.2040904@colorstudy.com>
	<a5375ad50708211440n495d5652o73f8d3620d40c206@mail.gmail.com>
	<a5375ad50708280831p1ba52029x118c4168f22ce1c1@mail.gmail.com>
	<9B504C9B-002C-456A-87E1-6BFF6E27EF1E@sent.com>
	<1ECA808A-6D27-4850-BD1B-62DFE588D979@cti.depaul.edu>
	<276266d0708290028m567e02a8v41eb2bf8b790640b@mail.gmail.com>
	<41D570F6-94A9-4BD5-AC05-089F09F52DBE@cti.depaul.edu>
	<361b27370708290720v773fc9e4pbd841e24c8b1fb9d@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <9D7CFE06-FC7C-43F7-88DA-04277E9ECE8A@cti.depaul.edu>

Thank you, this is very helpful!

Massimo

On Aug 29, 2007, at 9:20 AM, Atul Varma wrote:

> I believe you may want to use marshal instead of pickle.  In fact,
> .pyc files are actually just marshalled code objects with a bit of
> header information at the front--specifically, a 4-byte "magic number"
> followed by a last-modified-timestamp of the source .py file.
>
> Going back to your original example, loading a .pyc file can be  
> done like so:
>
>   # Compile the .pyc file (this is unchanged from your original post)
>   environment={'x':3}
>   open('a.py','w').write('print x')
>   import py_compile,os
>   exec(open('a.py','r').read()) in environment ### prints 3 OK!
>   py_compile.compile('a.py')
>   os.unlink('a.py')
>
>   # Now load the .pyc file.
>   f = open( "a.pyc", "rb" )
>   pycData = f.read()
>   f.close()
>
>   # Optional: read the magic number and ensure that it's what we  
> expect
>   # for our version of Python.
>   import imp
>   magic = pycData[:4]
>   assert magic == imp.get_magic()
>
>   # Optional: Get the last modified time of the original .py source,
> to tell if we're in
>   # sync with the compiled version of the latest version of the .py
> file.  At least,
>   # that's what I *think* this is for...
>   mtime = pycData[4:8]
>   # Well, actually, we can't do any comparison because we've  
> deleted the
>   # original .py file, so scratch that. :)
>
>   # Read the actual marshalled code object and unmarshal it.
>   codeBytes = pycData[8:]
>   code = marshal.loads( codeBytes )
>
>   # execute the code.
>   exec code in environment
>
> Note that more needs to be done in that last step if you actually want
> to set up a real module (e.g., if you're creating a custom
> importer--see PEP 302 for more information).
>
> It's also interesting to note that the .pyc file format isn't
> documented in prose anywhere, so the following source code can be used
> to determine it:
>
>   http://svn.python.org/projects/python/trunk/Python/import.c
>
> I hope this is helpful.
>
> - Atul
>
> On 8/29/07, Massimo Di Pierro <mdipierro at cti.depaul.edu> wrote:
>>
>> almost... but I want to be able to save c and reload it before the  
>> exec. It
>> appears c cannot be picked.
>>
>> Massimo
>>
>>
>> On Aug 29, 2007, at 2:28 AM, Cosmin Stejerean wrote:
>> I'm not sure if I understand what's going on with the environment  
>> = {} part
>> so I'm not sure if my solution to your problem is correct but here  
>> is what I
>> think is wrong. As far as I can tell exec can take either a string  
>> or a code
>> object. exec(open(' a.py','r').read()) works because you are  
>> reading the
>> code from a file (it could have been any other file extension) and  
>> exec is
>> parsing it.
>>
>> exec(open('a.pyc','r').read()) this however reads the bytecode as  
>> a string
>> and passes it to exec. This is probably not what you want (and  
>> most likely
>> won't work). One solution is to simply import a, but I'm guessing  
>> that's not
>> what you want either. The other option is to not use py_compile  
>> but use the
>> compile function and pickle as follows
>>
>> c = compile("print x", '<string>', 'exec')
>>
>> now you have a code object that you can execute
>>
>> exec(c)
>>
>> If you pickle this code object to a file you will be able to read  
>> it and run
>> it (then again why not pickle the original string??). The problem  
>> is pickle
>> won't pickle code objects. But apparently you can use a little  
>> trick around
>> that (see
>> http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-list/2002-August/161661.html)
>>
>> Is this at least close to what you were looking for?
>>
>> - Cosmin
>>
>> On 8/29/07, Massimo Di Pierro <mdipierro at cti.depaul.edu > wrote:
>>>
>>> Hello,
>>>
>>> I am hoping one of you can help me with this.
>>>
>>> EXAMPLE:
>>>
>>> environment={'x':3}
>>> open('a.py','w').write('print x')
>>> import py_compile,os
>>> exec(open('a.py','r').read()) in environment ### prints 3 OK!
>>> py_compile.compile(' a.py')
>>> os.unlink('a.py')
>>> exec(open('a.pyc','r').read()) in environment ### does not work
>>>
>>> QUESTION: how do exec a.pyc into environment so that it prints 3? Is
>>> it possible to do it?
>>>
>>> Massimo
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Chicago mailing list
>>> Chicago at python.org
>>> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Chicago mailing list
>> Chicago at python.org
>> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Chicago mailing list
>> Chicago at python.org
>> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago
>>
>>
> _______________________________________________
> Chicago mailing list
> Chicago at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago


From bray at sent.com  Thu Aug 30 16:20:24 2007
From: bray at sent.com (Brian Ray)
Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2007 09:20:24 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] Python at Big Nerd Ranch
Message-ID: <B0DAAAF0-97C3-4084-8C4E-8F63549E9609@sent.com>

I saw David Beazley is teaching a class at Big Nerd Ranch;

<http://tinyurl.com/2fzjox>

I was trying to decide wether  to blog or email ChiPy about this. Now  
I have done both.

Nonetheless, congrats to David!

I know they have Big Nerd Ranch classes on a Django and other things,  
as well.  I have never been Big Nerd Ranch--at least not this one;)  
Its not free.  Although, presumably it would cost less than a class  
at UofC.  Sounds fun.

I wonder if we could get a discount for ChiPy members?

Brian Ray
bray at sent.com
http://kazavoo.com/blog



From mdipierro at cti.depaul.edu  Thu Aug 30 16:54:28 2007
From: mdipierro at cti.depaul.edu (Massimo Di Pierro)
Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2007 09:54:28 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] September meeting: presentation?  Venues?
In-Reply-To: <46CB480A.2040904@colorstudy.com>
References: <46CB480A.2040904@colorstudy.com>
Message-ID: <6608A0CD-7F23-46CE-9C40-2437CA928200@cti.depaul.edu>

Is it Sep 13?
I have something I would like the the group's feedback on, so if you  
have time I can give you a 30min presentation on it.
People basically answered my previous email with "go write your own  
framework" so I made a working proof of concept.

Massimo

On Aug 21, 2007, at 3:16 PM, Ian Bicking wrote:

> The time is coming to plan next month's meeting.
>
> Does anyone have a presentation they'd like to give?
>
> Does anyone have a venue they'd like to offer or suggest?
>
> Thanks...
>
> -- 
> Ian Bicking : ianb at colorstudy.com : http://blog.ianbicking.org
>
> _______________________________________________
> Chicago mailing list
> Chicago at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago


From cwebber at imagescape.com  Thu Aug 30 17:06:13 2007
From: cwebber at imagescape.com (Christopher Allan Webber)
Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2007 10:06:13 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] September meeting: presentation?  Venues?
In-Reply-To: <6608A0CD-7F23-46CE-9C40-2437CA928200@cti.depaul.edu> (Massimo Di
	Pierro's message of "Thu, 30 Aug 2007 09:54:28 -0500")
References: <46CB480A.2040904@colorstudy.com>
	<6608A0CD-7F23-46CE-9C40-2437CA928200@cti.depaul.edu>
Message-ID: <6ybqcp2hay.fsf@imagepc03.rd.imagescape.com>

Massimo Di Pierro <mdipierro at cti.depaul.edu> writes:

> Is it Sep 13?
> I have something I would like the the group's feedback on, so if you  
> have time I can give you a 30min presentation on it.
> People basically answered my previous email with "go write your own  
> framework" so I made a working proof of concept.
>

And I quote:

  There is too much choice in the world of Pyhon web frameworks (and
  too many of them are 0.x) and this prevent us from making the case
  for each one of them against the Java dinosaur frameworks.
    - Massimo Di Pierro

;)

Just ragging.  Actually, I'm very interested in seeing what your proof
of concept framework is.

From bray at sent.com  Thu Aug 30 18:29:24 2007
From: bray at sent.com (Brian Ray)
Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2007 11:29:24 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] September meeting: presentation?  Venues?
In-Reply-To: <6608A0CD-7F23-46CE-9C40-2437CA928200@cti.depaul.edu>
References: <46CB480A.2040904@colorstudy.com>
	<6608A0CD-7F23-46CE-9C40-2437CA928200@cti.depaul.edu>
Message-ID: <12082719-FE6F-4311-AE9F-D660DBEC7CB6@sent.com>


On Aug 30, 2007, at 9:54 AM, Massimo Di Pierro wrote:

> Is it Sep 13?
> I have something I would like the the group's feedback on, so if you
> have time I can give you a 30min presentation on it.
> People basically answered my previous email with "go write your own
> framework" so I made a working proof of concept.

What would you like to call your framework?

If nobody else objects, I suggest you go ahead and sign yourself up  
on the front page of the wiki along with the other two.

As Warhol once said, "One's company, two's a crowd, and three's a  
Party!"


Brian Ray
bray at sent.com
http://kazavoo.com/blog



From skip at pobox.com  Thu Aug 30 18:42:38 2007
From: skip at pobox.com (skip at pobox.com)
Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2007 11:42:38 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] Python at Big Nerd Ranch
In-Reply-To: <B0DAAAF0-97C3-4084-8C4E-8F63549E9609@sent.com>
References: <B0DAAAF0-97C3-4084-8C4E-8F63549E9609@sent.com>
Message-ID: <18134.62334.309087.7558@montanaro.dyndns.org>

    Brian> I saw David Beazley is teaching a class at Big Nerd Ranch;
    Brian> <http://tinyurl.com/2fzjox>

We have one or more non-programmers on our team (no programming background
at all) who are interested in Python.  Dave's class assumes some previous
programming experience, preferably some O-O and some scripting.

Any suggestions?

Skip

From chris.mcavoy at gmail.com  Thu Aug 30 23:20:46 2007
From: chris.mcavoy at gmail.com (Chris McAvoy)
Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2007 16:20:46 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] Lightning!
In-Reply-To: <3096c19d0708301420h576cee14sdba063ae485fba81@mail.gmail.com>
References: <3096c19d0708301420h576cee14sdba063ae485fba81@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <3096c19d0708301420x33dc569cr6c98fd041c0e2e2c@mail.gmail.com>

Hey All,

I've been using a really great wrapper for Subversion that a guy at
work wrote.  He's coming to the September meeting, his first, so I'd
like it if he could just do a quick lighting presentation of the tool.
 It's made us pretty productive from a release management perspective.
 The presentation will take less than 5 minutes or so.

It's (of course) written in Python and available here
http://code.google.com/p/sv-subversion/

Any objections?  I know we have a relatively full plate...

Chris

From fitz at red-bean.com  Fri Aug 31 03:48:31 2007
From: fitz at red-bean.com (Brian W. Fitzpatrick)
Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2007 20:48:31 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] Lightning!
In-Reply-To: <3096c19d0708301420x33dc569cr6c98fd041c0e2e2c@mail.gmail.com>
References: <3096c19d0708301420h576cee14sdba063ae485fba81@mail.gmail.com>
	<3096c19d0708301420x33dc569cr6c98fd041c0e2e2c@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <fccecd3a0708301848l70e595a0ocaa5b61efa7b3e91@mail.gmail.com>

On 8/30/07, Chris McAvoy <chris.mcavoy at gmail.com> wrote:
> Hey All,
>
> I've been using a really great wrapper for Subversion that a guy at
> work wrote.  He's coming to the September meeting, his first, so I'd
> like it if he could just do a quick lighting presentation of the tool.
>  It's made us pretty productive from a release management perspective.
>  The presentation will take less than 5 minutes or so.
>
> It's (of course) written in Python and available here
> http://code.google.com/p/sv-subversion/
>
> Any objections?  I know we have a relatively full plate...

Fine by me--we'll just have to run a tight meeting.  Oh, and I'll have
to order more food. :-)

-Fitz

From mdipierro at cti.depaul.edu  Fri Aug 31 08:00:18 2007
From: mdipierro at cti.depaul.edu (Massimo Di Pierro)
Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2007 01:00:18 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] September meeting: presentation?  Venues?
In-Reply-To: <12082719-FE6F-4311-AE9F-D660DBEC7CB6@sent.com>
References: <46CB480A.2040904@colorstudy.com>
	<6608A0CD-7F23-46CE-9C40-2437CA928200@cti.depaul.edu>
	<12082719-FE6F-4311-AE9F-D660DBEC7CB6@sent.com>
Message-ID: <DA213F2A-6CA9-4334-A025-5BA565C4C66D@cti.depaul.edu>

Yes, schedule appears packed. I signed up anyway since this may be  
only Thursday I can make the meeting this year.

I also uploaded some slides about it here

http://web.mac.com/mdipierro/iWeb/Site/Code/ 
3289C4A2-20A9-4EEA-980C-6F2DAD8C8872.html

http://web.mac.com/mdipierro/iWeb/Site/Code/ 
3289C4A2-20A9-4EEA-980C-6F2DAD8C8872_files/ewf_presentation-1.pdf

Massimo



On Aug 30, 2007, at 11:29 AM, Brian Ray wrote:

>
> On Aug 30, 2007, at 9:54 AM, Massimo Di Pierro wrote:
>
>> Is it Sep 13?
>> I have something I would like the the group's feedback on, so if you
>> have time I can give you a 30min presentation on it.
>> People basically answered my previous email with "go write your own
>> framework" so I made a working proof of concept.
>
> What would you like to call your framework?
>
> If nobody else objects, I suggest you go ahead and sign yourself up
> on the front page of the wiki along with the other two.
>
> As Warhol once said, "One's company, two's a crowd, and three's a
> Party!"
>
>
> Brian Ray
> bray at sent.com
> http://kazavoo.com/blog
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Chicago mailing list
> Chicago at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/chicago


From sgithens at caret.cam.ac.uk  Tue Aug 21 23:06:33 2007
From: sgithens at caret.cam.ac.uk (Steven Githens)
Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2007 22:06:33 +0100
Subject: [Chicago] September meeting: presentation?  Venues?
In-Reply-To: <46CB480A.2040904@colorstudy.com>
References: <46CB480A.2040904@colorstudy.com>
Message-ID: <46CB53D9.3070800@caret.cam.ac.uk>

This might not be terribly interesting (since it runs on a jvm), but I 
could give a presentation of the side stuff I'm doing with Jython on my 
current project.

The stuff I work on is open source course management software written in 
Spring/Java.  As you can imagine, this tends to be pretty cumbersome 
stuff, so I wrote an ajax terminal shell for the system, and I use 
Jython to write most of the administration and utility commands.  We 
also weren't happy with any of the existing crappy Java web presentation 
frameworks, so we** rolled a new one from scratch that uses pure XHTML 
templating and lots and lots of Spring to abolish the large amounts of 
session state and other things that usually hog down java frameworks.  
I'm working on putting in Jython support for it so you can just add 
templates and *.py files and ignore the configuration that is required 
when writing new pages/widgets in raw java. ( Ideally, I'd like to 
eventually have support for this in Kawa, Scala, and JRuby too, but 
Jython is definately the first priority )

-Steve

** My coworkers actually wrote most of it. :)

Ian Bicking wrote:
> The time is coming to plan next month's meeting.
>
> Does anyone have a presentation they'd like to give?
>
> Does anyone have a venue they'd like to offer or suggest?
>
> Thanks...
>
>   


From bray at sent.com  Fri Aug 31 16:13:56 2007
From: bray at sent.com (Brian Ray)
Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2007 09:13:56 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] Python at Big Nerd Ranch
In-Reply-To: <18134.62334.309087.7558@montanaro.dyndns.org>
References: <B0DAAAF0-97C3-4084-8C4E-8F63549E9609@sent.com>
	<18134.62334.309087.7558@montanaro.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <4DBF325A-C674-4063-AA4F-5A38F72F4184@sent.com>


On Aug 30, 2007, at 11:42 AM, skip at pobox.com wrote:

>     Brian> I saw David Beazley is teaching a class at Big Nerd Ranch;
>     Brian> <http://tinyurl.com/2fzjox>
>
> We have one or more non-programmers on our team (no programming  
> background
> at all) who are interested in Python.  Dave's class assumes some  
> previous
> programming experience, preferably some O-O and some scripting.
>
> Any suggestions?

You can teach them, Skip!

One thing I noticed, is that some classes (not this one) are suffixed  
with "Bootcamp".

There still seems to remain a self-taught atmosphere around learning  
to Program with Python.  Certianly, some more progressive and IMHO  
ahead-of-their-times educators are teaching Python on a collegiate  
level. Although, there still remains some problems with corporate/ 
enterprises/business teaching and learning Python.

That problem is similar to the other problems with business use of  
Python--I so frequently complain about. For starters, business wants  
and needs a better high level language.  (I will not mention the  
problem with getting good Python candidates and employers together  
because I do not want to start another flame war, so ignore I just  
said that) Every business seems to already know they need to follow  
the popular trend of being more agile.  Still, then do not want to  
switch languages ever ten years: from Java to C#, for example. Some  
businesses remain blind under the illusion that languages backed by  
large business, like Sun or Microsoft, are somehow better.   OTOH,  
the big business too see the advantages in the base philosephies of  
the open source world--take open sourcing JAVA and the idea behind  
Microsoft's CLR, for example.  Python seems to be a perfect fit for  
so much, but the dots are not connecting themselves like we often  
wish they would.

So, how *do* we make Python classes available for business?  I write  
a commercial close sourced app that has a JavaScript API. That's  
right, JavaScript. We (before I was part of "We") looked at Python  
and it was too hard for the purposes we wanted.  Now, we do offer a  
JavaScript class where our clients send people to learn JavaScript.   
We have not interest in teaching JavaScript for anything other than  
our own purposes...  but, now we have our mailing list where people  
end up sharing their JavaScript code. Those business who wish to  
collaborate in a open-source-like way, see the benefit already.  I  
imagine the same thing would work for Python if we could just get the  
right PR and philosophies in the minds of the business types.  Maybe  
PyCon will help with this too.


Brian Ray
bray at sent.com
http://kazavoo.com/blog



From bray at sent.com  Fri Aug 31 16:15:27 2007
From: bray at sent.com (Brian Ray)
Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2007 09:15:27 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] September meeting: presentation?  Venues?
In-Reply-To: <46CB53D9.3070800@caret.cam.ac.uk>
References: <46CB480A.2040904@colorstudy.com>
	<46CB53D9.3070800@caret.cam.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <DBFD1854-BB0B-400A-9BD0-963107CDE736@sent.com>


On Aug 21, 2007, at 4:06 PM, Steven Githens wrote:

> This might not be terribly interesting (since it runs on a jvm), but I
> could give a presentation of the side stuff I'm doing with Jython  
> on my
> current project.

We already have you down, see the wiki:

http://chipy.org/

Brian Ray
bray at sent.com
http://kazavoo.com/blog



From d-beazley at sbcglobal.net  Fri Aug 31 16:10:01 2007
From: d-beazley at sbcglobal.net (David Beazley)
Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2007 09:10:01 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] Python at Big Nerd Ranch
In-Reply-To: <mailman.51.1188554427.28839.chicago@python.org>
References: <mailman.51.1188554427.28839.chicago@python.org>
Message-ID: <BE91ADC5-A6AD-43FF-8E0C-425E85C1B9BB@sbcglobal.net>

>
> Nonetheless, congrats to David!
>
> I know they have Big Nerd Ranch classes on a Django and other things,
> as well.  I have never been Big Nerd Ranch--at least not this one;)
> Its not free.  Although, presumably it would cost less than a class
> at UofC.  Sounds fun.
>
> I wonder if we could get a discount for ChiPy members?
>

I have no idea if they offer discounts ;-).   However, I can  
definitely put in my own pitch for the class.   Basically, this is an  
entirely new course on Python that I put together last winter--- 
working exclusively on it full time for about 5-6 months.  The course  
is heavily focused on "modern Python" meaning that it takes full  
liberty with showing how to effectively use new language features.   
There's also a fairly strong systems programming undercurrent in the  
class (i.e., how to build stuff related to the real world). Since  
May, I've been teaching variations of the class about every other  
week---making various improvements along the way.   So, anyone  
thinking about signing up for the Nerd Ranch Class is going to get a  
course that's not only extremely thorough, but something that's been   
battle tested all summer.

The Nerd Ranch experience is interesting.  The digs are pretty nice,  
but just make sure you're not on a diet!

Anyways, I'd be more than happy to answer any questions on it.  Just  
send me an email.

Cheers,
Dave







From skip at pobox.com  Fri Aug 31 16:40:21 2007
From: skip at pobox.com (skip at pobox.com)
Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2007 09:40:21 -0500
Subject: [Chicago] Python at Big Nerd Ranch
In-Reply-To: <4DBF325A-C674-4063-AA4F-5A38F72F4184@sent.com>
References: <B0DAAAF0-97C3-4084-8C4E-8F63549E9609@sent.com>
	<18134.62334.309087.7558@montanaro.dyndns.org>
	<4DBF325A-C674-4063-AA4F-5A38F72F4184@sent.com>
Message-ID: <18136.10325.173162.338999@montanaro.dyndns.org>


    Brian> You can teach them, Skip!

Not likely, especially given this quote from Dave's message:

    Dave> Basically, this is an entirely new course on Python that I put
    Dave> together last winter--- working exclusively on it full time for
    Dave> about 5-6 months.

I don't have the time or charter to put in the kind of work necessary to
teach a proper class on Python.  Not to mention which I have little
experience teaching.

Skip