From donnamsnow at gmail.com  Mon Jun  1 19:00:46 2009
From: donnamsnow at gmail.com (Donna Snow)
Date: Mon, 1 Jun 2009 10:00:46 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] Bay Area Plone Retreat
Message-ID: <baf0d46b0906011000m5bd04fafo11952709a0633ac5@mail.gmail.com>

HI guys,

We are in the planning stages for a Plone retreat in January/February of
2010. If you'd like to participate or help plan please sign up here :-)

http://www.openplans.org/projects/bayareaploneretreat/project-home

Thank You!!

Donna 'SnowWrite' Snow, Principal
C Squared Enterprises
illuminating your path to Open Source
http://www.csquaredtech.com

Coming soon! c2etraining.com
Live Open Source training online
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From aps at supergrids.net  Mon Jun  1 20:42:24 2009
From: aps at supergrids.net (Antonio)
Date: Mon, 1 Jun 2009 11:42:24 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] courses for beginners....
Message-ID: <006201c9e2e8$b58ebb50$20ac31f0$@net>

Hi Folks,

 

A business associate has a young visitor for a year [she lives in France,
but is American] 

& wants to learn to program Python.  Normal 4yr degree Comp Sci courses
don't make 

sense, nor do community colleges with "out of state" tuition for this young
person.

 

Any suggestions for someone in her circumstance?  [she appears to be serious
and 

dedicated to pursue this]

 

 

Thanks,

Antonio

 

 

 

 

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From progrium at gmail.com  Mon Jun  1 21:02:49 2009
From: progrium at gmail.com (Jeff Lindsay)
Date: Mon, 1 Jun 2009 12:02:49 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] courses for beginners....
In-Reply-To: <006201c9e2e8$b58ebb50$20ac31f0$@net>
References: <006201c9e2e8$b58ebb50$20ac31f0$@net>
Message-ID: <ec47901a0906011202w18494576l60f149aaf621f53@mail.gmail.com>

If you guys don't find anything suitable in the next month or so, try coming
by the should-be-open-by-then Hacker Dojo in Mountain View ... I'll likely
be doing programming courses there based in Python (with exposure to Ruby,
PHP, others).

-jeff

On Mon, Jun 1, 2009 at 11:42 AM, Antonio <aps at supergrids.net> wrote:

>  Hi Folks,
>
>
>
> A business associate has a young visitor for a year [she lives in France,
> but is American]
>
> & wants to learn to program Python.  Normal 4yr degree Comp Sci courses
> don't make
>
> sense, nor do community colleges with "out of state" tuition for this young
> person.
>
>
>
> Any suggestions for someone in her circumstance?  [she appears to be
> serious and
>
> dedicated to pursue this]
>
>
>
>
>
> Thanks,
>
> Antonio
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Baypiggies mailing list
> Baypiggies at python.org
> To change your subscription options or unsubscribe:
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies
>



-- 
Jeff Lindsay
http://webhooks.org -- Make the web more programmable
http://shdh.org -- A party for hackers and thinkers
http://tigdb.com -- Discover indie games
http://progrium.com -- More interesting things
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From jon at inklesspen.com  Mon Jun  1 21:02:51 2009
From: jon at inklesspen.com (Jon Rosebaugh)
Date: Mon, 1 Jun 2009 12:02:51 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] courses for beginners....
In-Reply-To: <006201c9e2e8$b58ebb50$20ac31f0$@net>
References: <006201c9e2e8$b58ebb50$20ac31f0$@net>
Message-ID: <D0E1E093-EC0A-46B5-B5BE-6B82326227BF@inklesspen.com>

There are a lot of good books freely available on this subject. I'd  
start with Dive into Python, which is currently being updated for py3k.

On Jun 1, 2009, at 11:42 AM, Antonio wrote:

> Hi Folks,
>
>
>
> A business associate has a young visitor for a year [she lives in  
> France, but is American]
>
> & wants to learn to program Python.  Normal 4yr degree Comp Sci  
> courses don't make
>
> sense, nor do community colleges with "out of state" tuition for  
> this young person.
>
>
>
> Any suggestions for someone in her circumstance?  [she appears to be  
> serious and
>
> dedicated to pursue this]
>
>
>
>
>
> Thanks,
>
> Antonio
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Baypiggies mailing list
> Baypiggies at python.org
> To change your subscription options or unsubscribe:
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies


From paul.hoffman at gmail.com  Mon Jun  1 21:21:03 2009
From: paul.hoffman at gmail.com (Paul Hoffman)
Date: Mon, 1 Jun 2009 12:21:03 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] courses for beginners....
In-Reply-To: <D0E1E093-EC0A-46B5-B5BE-6B82326227BF@inklesspen.com>
References: <006201c9e2e8$b58ebb50$20ac31f0$@net>
	<D0E1E093-EC0A-46B5-B5BE-6B82326227BF@inklesspen.com>
Message-ID: <1e267dfe0906011221g12187dceq8227e84646f712f5@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Jun 1, 2009 at 12:02 PM, Jon Rosebaugh <jon at inklesspen.com> wrote:
> There are a lot of good books freely available on this subject. I'd start
> with Dive into Python, which is currently being updated for py3k.

And I would counter-suggest "Learning Python", which seems better
suited for non-geeks than Dive (although Dive is certainly more fun to
read).

From progrium at gmail.com  Mon Jun  1 21:28:21 2009
From: progrium at gmail.com (Jeff Lindsay)
Date: Mon, 1 Jun 2009 12:28:21 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] courses for beginners....
In-Reply-To: <1e267dfe0906011221g12187dceq8227e84646f712f5@mail.gmail.com>
References: <006201c9e2e8$b58ebb50$20ac31f0$@net>
	<D0E1E093-EC0A-46B5-B5BE-6B82326227BF@inklesspen.com>
	<1e267dfe0906011221g12187dceq8227e84646f712f5@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <ec47901a0906011228i5cc8f057g2fc17d706528ed90@mail.gmail.com>

I agree. And it's online. Always remember this URL for newcomers:
http://openbookproject.net/thinkCSpy/

On Mon, Jun 1, 2009 at 12:21 PM, Paul Hoffman <paul.hoffman at gmail.com>wrote:

> On Mon, Jun 1, 2009 at 12:02 PM, Jon Rosebaugh <jon at inklesspen.com> wrote:
> > There are a lot of good books freely available on this subject. I'd start
> > with Dive into Python, which is currently being updated for py3k.
>
> And I would counter-suggest "Learning Python", which seems better
> suited for non-geeks than Dive (although Dive is certainly more fun to
> read).
> _______________________________________________
> Baypiggies mailing list
> Baypiggies at python.org
> To change your subscription options or unsubscribe:
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies
>



-- 
Jeff Lindsay
http://webhooks.org -- Make the web more programmable
http://shdh.org -- A party for hackers and thinkers
http://tigdb.com -- Discover indie games
http://progrium.com -- More interesting things
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From jon at inklesspen.com  Mon Jun  1 21:36:11 2009
From: jon at inklesspen.com (Jon Rosebaugh)
Date: Mon, 1 Jun 2009 12:36:11 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] courses for beginners....
In-Reply-To: <ec47901a0906011228i5cc8f057g2fc17d706528ed90@mail.gmail.com>
References: <006201c9e2e8$b58ebb50$20ac31f0$@net>
	<D0E1E093-EC0A-46B5-B5BE-6B82326227BF@inklesspen.com>
	<1e267dfe0906011221g12187dceq8227e84646f712f5@mail.gmail.com>
	<ec47901a0906011228i5cc8f057g2fc17d706528ed90@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <7C78327E-1124-4F6F-903A-A300057B2B4F@inklesspen.com>

Honestly, my recommended approach would be SICP followed by Dive into  
Python.

On Jun 1, 2009, at 12:28 PM, Jeff Lindsay wrote:

> I agree. And it's online. Always remember this URL for newcomers: http://openbookproject.net/thinkCSpy/
>
> On Mon, Jun 1, 2009 at 12:21 PM, Paul Hoffman  
> <paul.hoffman at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Mon, Jun 1, 2009 at 12:02 PM, Jon Rosebaugh <jon at inklesspen.com>  
> wrote:
> > There are a lot of good books freely available on this subject.  
> I'd start
> > with Dive into Python, which is currently being updated for py3k.
>
> And I would counter-suggest "Learning Python", which seems better
> suited for non-geeks than Dive (although Dive is certainly more fun to
> read).
> _______________________________________________
> Baypiggies mailing list
> Baypiggies at python.org
> To change your subscription options or unsubscribe:
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies
>
>
>
> -- 
> Jeff Lindsay
> http://webhooks.org -- Make the web more programmable
> http://shdh.org -- A party for hackers and thinkers
> http://tigdb.com -- Discover indie games
> http://progrium.com -- More interesting things


From progrium at gmail.com  Mon Jun  1 21:38:51 2009
From: progrium at gmail.com (Jeff Lindsay)
Date: Mon, 1 Jun 2009 12:38:51 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] courses for beginners....
In-Reply-To: <7C78327E-1124-4F6F-903A-A300057B2B4F@inklesspen.com>
References: <006201c9e2e8$b58ebb50$20ac31f0$@net>
	<D0E1E093-EC0A-46B5-B5BE-6B82326227BF@inklesspen.com>
	<1e267dfe0906011221g12187dceq8227e84646f712f5@mail.gmail.com>
	<ec47901a0906011228i5cc8f057g2fc17d706528ed90@mail.gmail.com>
	<7C78327E-1124-4F6F-903A-A300057B2B4F@inklesspen.com>
Message-ID: <ec47901a0906011238u4d01de13r43130550df3c48f8@mail.gmail.com>

I agree, but I wish SICP were in Python (for new programmers). I'm not sure
how much the new MIT stuff is going to be just that ... but I am taking a
lot from SICP in the course I'm putting together.

On Mon, Jun 1, 2009 at 12:36 PM, Jon Rosebaugh <jon at inklesspen.com> wrote:

> Honestly, my recommended approach would be SICP followed by Dive into
> Python.
>
>
> On Jun 1, 2009, at 12:28 PM, Jeff Lindsay wrote:
>
>  I agree. And it's online. Always remember this URL for newcomers:
>> http://openbookproject.net/thinkCSpy/
>>
>> On Mon, Jun 1, 2009 at 12:21 PM, Paul Hoffman <paul.hoffman at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>> On Mon, Jun 1, 2009 at 12:02 PM, Jon Rosebaugh <jon at inklesspen.com>
>> wrote:
>> > There are a lot of good books freely available on this subject. I'd
>> start
>> > with Dive into Python, which is currently being updated for py3k.
>>
>> And I would counter-suggest "Learning Python", which seems better
>> suited for non-geeks than Dive (although Dive is certainly more fun to
>> read).
>> _______________________________________________
>> Baypiggies mailing list
>> Baypiggies at python.org
>> To change your subscription options or unsubscribe:
>> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Jeff Lindsay
>> http://webhooks.org -- Make the web more programmable
>> http://shdh.org -- A party for hackers and thinkers
>> http://tigdb.com -- Discover indie games
>> http://progrium.com -- More interesting things
>>
>
>


-- 
Jeff Lindsay
http://webhooks.org -- Make the web more programmable
http://shdh.org -- A party for hackers and thinkers
http://tigdb.com -- Discover indie games
http://progrium.com -- More interesting things
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From jon at inklesspen.com  Mon Jun  1 21:44:33 2009
From: jon at inklesspen.com (Jon Rosebaugh)
Date: Mon, 1 Jun 2009 12:44:33 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] courses for beginners....
In-Reply-To: <ec47901a0906011238u4d01de13r43130550df3c48f8@mail.gmail.com>
References: <006201c9e2e8$b58ebb50$20ac31f0$@net>
	<D0E1E093-EC0A-46B5-B5BE-6B82326227BF@inklesspen.com>
	<1e267dfe0906011221g12187dceq8227e84646f712f5@mail.gmail.com>
	<ec47901a0906011228i5cc8f057g2fc17d706528ed90@mail.gmail.com>
	<7C78327E-1124-4F6F-903A-A300057B2B4F@inklesspen.com>
	<ec47901a0906011238u4d01de13r43130550df3c48f8@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <8A5BD743-D140-4192-B4B4-5BB408F2C2FE@inklesspen.com>

It can't be. Python lacks macros.

On Jun 1, 2009, at 12:38 PM, Jeff Lindsay wrote:

> I agree, but I wish SICP were in Python (for new programmers). I'm  
> not sure how much the new MIT stuff is going to be just that ... but  
> I am taking a lot from SICP in the course I'm putting together.
>
> On Mon, Jun 1, 2009 at 12:36 PM, Jon Rosebaugh <jon at inklesspen.com>  
> wrote:
> Honestly, my recommended approach would be SICP followed by Dive  
> into Python.
>
>
> On Jun 1, 2009, at 12:28 PM, Jeff Lindsay wrote:
>
> I agree. And it's online. Always remember this URL for newcomers: http://openbookproject.net/thinkCSpy/
>
> On Mon, Jun 1, 2009 at 12:21 PM, Paul Hoffman  
> <paul.hoffman at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Mon, Jun 1, 2009 at 12:02 PM, Jon Rosebaugh <jon at inklesspen.com>  
> wrote:
> > There are a lot of good books freely available on this subject.  
> I'd start
> > with Dive into Python, which is currently being updated for py3k.
>
> And I would counter-suggest "Learning Python", which seems better
> suited for non-geeks than Dive (although Dive is certainly more fun to
> read).
> _______________________________________________
> Baypiggies mailing list
> Baypiggies at python.org
> To change your subscription options or unsubscribe:
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies
>
>
>
> -- 
> Jeff Lindsay
> http://webhooks.org -- Make the web more programmable
> http://shdh.org -- A party for hackers and thinkers
> http://tigdb.com -- Discover indie games
> http://progrium.com -- More interesting things
>
>
>
>
> -- 
> Jeff Lindsay
> http://webhooks.org -- Make the web more programmable
> http://shdh.org -- A party for hackers and thinkers
> http://tigdb.com -- Discover indie games
> http://progrium.com -- More interesting things


From progrium at gmail.com  Mon Jun  1 21:49:38 2009
From: progrium at gmail.com (Jeff Lindsay)
Date: Mon, 1 Jun 2009 12:49:38 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] courses for beginners....
In-Reply-To: <8A5BD743-D140-4192-B4B4-5BB408F2C2FE@inklesspen.com>
References: <006201c9e2e8$b58ebb50$20ac31f0$@net>
	<D0E1E093-EC0A-46B5-B5BE-6B82326227BF@inklesspen.com>
	<1e267dfe0906011221g12187dceq8227e84646f712f5@mail.gmail.com>
	<ec47901a0906011228i5cc8f057g2fc17d706528ed90@mail.gmail.com>
	<7C78327E-1124-4F6F-903A-A300057B2B4F@inklesspen.com>
	<ec47901a0906011238u4d01de13r43130550df3c48f8@mail.gmail.com>
	<8A5BD743-D140-4192-B4B4-5BB408F2C2FE@inklesspen.com>
Message-ID: <ec47901a0906011249j6671894w631480966b74fdfa@mail.gmail.com>

I don't think you need macros in SICP to get tremendous value out of it.
Anyway, thread is starting to get off topic. Take it offline.

On Mon, Jun 1, 2009 at 12:44 PM, Jon Rosebaugh <jon at inklesspen.com> wrote:

> It can't be. Python lacks macros.
>
>
> On Jun 1, 2009, at 12:38 PM, Jeff Lindsay wrote:
>
>  I agree, but I wish SICP were in Python (for new programmers). I'm not
>> sure how much the new MIT stuff is going to be just that ... but I am taking
>> a lot from SICP in the course I'm putting together.
>>
>> On Mon, Jun 1, 2009 at 12:36 PM, Jon Rosebaugh <jon at inklesspen.com>
>> wrote:
>> Honestly, my recommended approach would be SICP followed by Dive into
>> Python.
>>
>>
>> On Jun 1, 2009, at 12:28 PM, Jeff Lindsay wrote:
>>
>> I agree. And it's online. Always remember this URL for newcomers:
>> http://openbookproject.net/thinkCSpy/
>>
>> On Mon, Jun 1, 2009 at 12:21 PM, Paul Hoffman <paul.hoffman at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>> On Mon, Jun 1, 2009 at 12:02 PM, Jon Rosebaugh <jon at inklesspen.com>
>> wrote:
>> > There are a lot of good books freely available on this subject. I'd
>> start
>> > with Dive into Python, which is currently being updated for py3k.
>>
>> And I would counter-suggest "Learning Python", which seems better
>> suited for non-geeks than Dive (although Dive is certainly more fun to
>> read).
>> _______________________________________________
>> Baypiggies mailing list
>> Baypiggies at python.org
>> To change your subscription options or unsubscribe:
>> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Jeff Lindsay
>> http://webhooks.org -- Make the web more programmable
>> http://shdh.org -- A party for hackers and thinkers
>> http://tigdb.com -- Discover indie games
>> http://progrium.com -- More interesting things
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Jeff Lindsay
>> http://webhooks.org -- Make the web more programmable
>> http://shdh.org -- A party for hackers and thinkers
>> http://tigdb.com -- Discover indie games
>> http://progrium.com -- More interesting things
>>
>
>


-- 
Jeff Lindsay
http://webhooks.org -- Make the web more programmable
http://shdh.org -- A party for hackers and thinkers
http://tigdb.com -- Discover indie games
http://progrium.com -- More interesting things
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From xdevice at gmail.com  Mon Jun  1 23:15:28 2009
From: xdevice at gmail.com (Rana Biswas)
Date: Mon, 1 Jun 2009 14:15:28 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] courses for beginners....
In-Reply-To: <ec47901a0906011249j6671894w631480966b74fdfa@mail.gmail.com>
References: <006201c9e2e8$b58ebb50$20ac31f0$@net>
	<D0E1E093-EC0A-46B5-B5BE-6B82326227BF@inklesspen.com>
	<1e267dfe0906011221g12187dceq8227e84646f712f5@mail.gmail.com>
	<ec47901a0906011228i5cc8f057g2fc17d706528ed90@mail.gmail.com>
	<7C78327E-1124-4F6F-903A-A300057B2B4F@inklesspen.com>
	<ec47901a0906011238u4d01de13r43130550df3c48f8@mail.gmail.com>
	<8A5BD743-D140-4192-B4B4-5BB408F2C2FE@inklesspen.com>
	<ec47901a0906011249j6671894w631480966b74fdfa@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <c148693f0906011415i20188166kb6d46bc96501aa7c@mail.gmail.com>

Here is another book for beginner, which I found very useful. Its available
online.

http://www.swaroopch.com/notes/Python

--Rana

On Mon, Jun 1, 2009 at 12:49 PM, Jeff Lindsay <progrium at gmail.com> wrote:

> I don't think you need macros in SICP to get tremendous value out of it.
> Anyway, thread is starting to get off topic. Take it offline.
>
>
> On Mon, Jun 1, 2009 at 12:44 PM, Jon Rosebaugh <jon at inklesspen.com> wrote:
>
>> It can't be. Python lacks macros.
>>
>>
>> On Jun 1, 2009, at 12:38 PM, Jeff Lindsay wrote:
>>
>>  I agree, but I wish SICP were in Python (for new programmers). I'm not
>>> sure how much the new MIT stuff is going to be just that ... but I am taking
>>> a lot from SICP in the course I'm putting together.
>>>
>>> On Mon, Jun 1, 2009 at 12:36 PM, Jon Rosebaugh <jon at inklesspen.com>
>>> wrote:
>>> Honestly, my recommended approach would be SICP followed by Dive into
>>> Python.
>>>
>>>
>>> On Jun 1, 2009, at 12:28 PM, Jeff Lindsay wrote:
>>>
>>> I agree. And it's online. Always remember this URL for newcomers:
>>> http://openbookproject.net/thinkCSpy/
>>>
>>> On Mon, Jun 1, 2009 at 12:21 PM, Paul Hoffman <paul.hoffman at gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>> On Mon, Jun 1, 2009 at 12:02 PM, Jon Rosebaugh <jon at inklesspen.com>
>>> wrote:
>>> > There are a lot of good books freely available on this subject. I'd
>>> start
>>> > with Dive into Python, which is currently being updated for py3k.
>>>
>>> And I would counter-suggest "Learning Python", which seems better
>>> suited for non-geeks than Dive (although Dive is certainly more fun to
>>> read).
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Baypiggies mailing list
>>> Baypiggies at python.org
>>> To change your subscription options or unsubscribe:
>>> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Jeff Lindsay
>>> http://webhooks.org -- Make the web more programmable
>>> http://shdh.org -- A party for hackers and thinkers
>>> http://tigdb.com -- Discover indie games
>>> http://progrium.com -- More interesting things
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Jeff Lindsay
>>> http://webhooks.org -- Make the web more programmable
>>> http://shdh.org -- A party for hackers and thinkers
>>> http://tigdb.com -- Discover indie games
>>> http://progrium.com -- More interesting things
>>>
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Jeff Lindsay
> http://webhooks.org -- Make the web more programmable
> http://shdh.org -- A party for hackers and thinkers
> http://tigdb.com -- Discover indie games
> http://progrium.com -- More interesting things
>
> _______________________________________________
> Baypiggies mailing list
> Baypiggies at python.org
> To change your subscription options or unsubscribe:
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies
>
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From aps at supergrids.net  Mon Jun  1 23:20:39 2009
From: aps at supergrids.net (Antonio)
Date: Mon, 1 Jun 2009 14:20:39 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] courses for beginners....
In-Reply-To: <006201c9e2e8$b58ebb50$20ac31f0$@net>
References: <006201c9e2e8$b58ebb50$20ac31f0$@net>
Message-ID: <009801c9e2fe$d09b9ec0$71d2dc40$@net>

Hi Folks,

 

Thanks for the responses and good ideas. 

 

I'm afraid I should have been clearer... she is a native English speaker,

but lives in France.  She is only here for one year [info given to show

time limitations for courses in the Bay area, before going home...].  

Also, she a beginner at programming and while many books recommended 

are quite good, seems likely she will need a course to get started.

 

At the risk of starting arguments [Let's NOT...] would probably be good

to get her started in courses with Py 3.x being covered, since she'll 

have no prior programming work to support, etc.

 

 

From: baypiggies-bounces+aps=supergrids.net at python.org
[mailto:baypiggies-bounces+aps=supergrids.net at python.org] On Behalf Of
Antonio
Sent: Monday, June 01, 2009 11:42 AM
To: baypiggies at python.org
Subject: [Baypiggies] courses for beginners....

 

Hi Folks,

 

A business associate has a young visitor for a year [she lives in France,
but is American] 

& wants to learn to program Python.  Normal 4yr degree Comp Sci courses
don't make 

sense, nor do community colleges with "out of state" tuition for this young
person.

 

Any suggestions for someone in her circumstance?  [she appears to be serious
and 

dedicated to pursue this]

 

 

Thanks,

Antonio

 

 

 

 

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From st1999 at gmail.com  Mon Jun  1 23:25:54 2009
From: st1999 at gmail.com (ST1999)
Date: Mon, 1 Jun 2009 14:25:54 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] courses for beginners....
In-Reply-To: <006201c9e2e8$b58ebb50$20ac31f0$@net>
References: <006201c9e2e8$b58ebb50$20ac31f0$@net>
Message-ID: <f94327da0906011425y4db5cb7cn8b7b05b3b7d7e92c@mail.gmail.com>

I cannot recommend Wesley's Core Python Programming highly enough.
Between that and online materials, your visitor should be good to go.

Also, both City College and Foothill College offer Python courses.
Assuming that the out-of-state tuition stops to be a barrier, I would
recommend taking a class at one of the institutions.

In addition, Berkeley has a number of courses that might be of
interest. Depending on the instructor, it is sometimes possible to get
permission to audit courses.

- Shailen Tuli


On 6/1/09, Antonio <aps at supergrids.net> wrote:
> Hi Folks,
>
>
>
> A business associate has a young visitor for a year [she lives in France,
> but is American]
>
> & wants to learn to program Python.  Normal 4yr degree Comp Sci courses
> don't make
>
> sense, nor do community colleges with "out of state" tuition for this young
> person.
>
>
>
> Any suggestions for someone in her circumstance?  [she appears to be serious
> and
>
> dedicated to pursue this]
>
>
>
>
>
> Thanks,
>
> Antonio
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

From aahz at pythoncraft.com  Tue Jun  2 02:21:40 2009
From: aahz at pythoncraft.com (Aahz)
Date: Mon, 1 Jun 2009 17:21:40 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] courses for beginners....
In-Reply-To: <009801c9e2fe$d09b9ec0$71d2dc40$@net>
References: <006201c9e2e8$b58ebb50$20ac31f0$@net>
	<009801c9e2fe$d09b9ec0$71d2dc40$@net>
Message-ID: <20090602002139.GB27161@panix.com>

On Mon, Jun 01, 2009, Antonio wrote:
>
> At the risk of starting arguments [Let's NOT...] would probably be good
> to get her started in courses with Py 3.x being covered, since she'll 
> have no prior programming work to support, etc.

That is true, but she'll also have fewer available 3rd-party modules.
-- 
Aahz (aahz at pythoncraft.com)           <*>         http://www.pythoncraft.com/

my-python-code-runs-5x-faster-this-month-thanks-to-dumping-$2K-
    on-a-new-machine-ly y'rs  - tim

From aleax at google.com  Tue Jun  2 02:10:58 2009
From: aleax at google.com (Alex Martelli)
Date: Mon, 1 Jun 2009 17:10:58 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] courses for beginners....
In-Reply-To: <1e267dfe0906011221g12187dceq8227e84646f712f5@mail.gmail.com>
References: <006201c9e2e8$b58ebb50$20ac31f0$@net>
	<D0E1E093-EC0A-46B5-B5BE-6B82326227BF@inklesspen.com>
	<1e267dfe0906011221g12187dceq8227e84646f712f5@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <55dc209b0906011710u51fe6137l998bfb13a466f601@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Jun 1, 2009 at 12:21 PM, Paul Hoffman <paul.hoffman at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Mon, Jun 1, 2009 at 12:02 PM, Jon Rosebaugh <jon at inklesspen.com> wrote:
>> There are a lot of good books freely available on this subject. I'd start
>> with Dive into Python, which is currently being updated for py3k.
>
> And I would counter-suggest "Learning Python", which seems better
> suited for non-geeks than Dive (although Dive is certainly more fun to
> read).

I'd recommend Python for Dummies (it's an excellent beginner book and
I'm sure Aahz is too modest to say so himself) and Core Python (ditto
but s/Aahz/Wesley/;-) -- hey folks, let's show some baypiggy
solidarity, shall we?!-)


Alex

From wescpy at gmail.com  Tue Jun  2 02:35:16 2009
From: wescpy at gmail.com (wesley chun)
Date: Mon, 1 Jun 2009 17:35:16 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] courses for beginners....
In-Reply-To: <009801c9e2fe$d09b9ec0$71d2dc40$@net>
References: <006201c9e2e8$b58ebb50$20ac31f0$@net>
	<009801c9e2fe$d09b9ec0$71d2dc40$@net>
Message-ID: <78b3a9580906011735h4cdf86aakdb5cdc098aa9e6d5@mail.gmail.com>

> Also, she a beginner at programming and while many books recommended
> are quite good, seems likely she will need a course to get started.


normally for those with prior programming experience, i would, of
course, recommend my upcoming course (Jun 15-17, 2009 near SFO).
although some companies do send such students to me, i usually
recommend against it only because it really isn't for beginners, and i
don't want to disappoint anyone.

the problem is that i actually *do* have a course for beginners but
cannot come up with a way to reach the right audience and be able to
offer it. (ideas from the field are encouraged!)

your best bet to avoid "out-of-state" tuition prices would be to find
a course where such fees don't apply, and these would be public
courses offered by private institutions like ours. i'm not sure where
you can find such a list though -- i myself haven't found such a place
(nor have i really looked that hard).

perhaps check craigslist (classes/events) or search the Python events page:
http://wiki.python.org/moin/PythonEvents

best of luck!
-- wesley
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
"Core Python Programming", Prentice Hall, (c)2007,2001
"Python Fundamentals", Prentice Hall, (c)2009
    http://corepython.com

wesley.j.chun :: wescpy-at-gmail.com
python training and technical consulting
cyberweb.consulting : silicon valley, ca
http://cyberwebconsulting.com

From japerk at gmail.com  Tue Jun  2 05:08:33 2009
From: japerk at gmail.com (Jacob Perkins)
Date: Mon, 1 Jun 2009 20:08:33 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] [JOB] Django web developer
Message-ID: <bf2bf0560906012008v6dbe2e63x5950c878bdd0f518@mail.gmail.com>

Hi all, I'm the cofounder/CTO/lead developer for a startup called Weotta (as
in "weotta do something"). I've been lurking on the list for a while,
haven't made it to any meetings, but have been quite impressed with the
quality of discussion here. We're looking for a skilled Django developer
that's comfortable working remotely, meeting once or twice a week. Our team
of 5 is distributed between Los Gatos / Santa Cruz, San Francisco and
Berkeley, working on the product for over a year. Here's a brief intro from
Grant, my cofounder/CEO:

Weotta, the local discovery company, is based in the Bay Area. We are
working on next generation collaborative local search technology, currently
in private beta, planning to launch this fall. You can find out a little
more about us at http://blog.weotta.com/ and the technology behind Weotta at
http://streamhacker.wordpress.com/

Our frontend software stack currently includes:
* Django
* jQuery
* MySQL
* Nginx
* Mercurial

We need a part-time (can transition to full-time) Python/Django developer to
build awesome web apps (including mobile web, and potentially a Palm Pre
app). Skills we're looking for include:
* very familiar with Django
* good with jQuery
* bonus points for nginx experience
* experience building consumer web apps
* can work remotely with a small team
* good communication
* cool with agile development
* pragmatic about testing and refactoring
* appreciation & respect for good design
* passionate about building usable (and fast) interfaces

For someone that can work full-time and likes learning new technology, we
also use NLTK for NLP and Erlang for search. If you're more interested in
backend systems & web crawling, I'll be sending another job post for that.

We're quite the boostrapped company, but yes we can pay you something. If
you are interested please send an email with CV/resume, code samples, links
to OSS projects, etc to jobs at weotta.com.
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From japerk at gmail.com  Tue Jun  2 05:16:40 2009
From: japerk at gmail.com (Jacob Perkins)
Date: Mon, 1 Jun 2009 20:16:40 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] [JOB] Web crawler developer
Message-ID: <bf2bf0560906012016j2f0c1517q94e64816bd4bf70c@mail.gmail.com>

Can you write a solid web crawler in under an hour? If so Weotta has quite
the challenge for you.

Weotta, the local discovery company, is based in the Bay Area. We are
working on next generation collaborative local search technology, currently
in private beta, planning to launch this fall. You can find out a little
more about us at http://blog.weotta.com/ and the technology behind Weotta at
http://streamhacker.wordpress.com/

We're looking for a part-time developer (can transition to full-time) that
can pump out web crawlers while creating a framework for to make developing
new crawlers easier. We do deep crawling with BeautifulSoup & mechanize, but
are very interested in transitioning to use http://www.80legs.com/. In fact,
the first challenge you'd be tasked with is trying to write a Jython crawler
for 80legs (with BeautifulSoup or lxml). Otherwise we might have to use java
:(

Other desired skills include:
* Good communication
* Excels working with a small team (5 people distributed around the Bay
Area)
* Cool with agile development
* Pragmatic about testing and refactoring
* Huge bonus points for experience dealing with large amounts of data

If you can work full-time and like learning new technology, we're also using
NLTK for NLP and Erlang for search & indexing.

We're quite the boostrapped company, which means we can pay some $$ and do
stock options. If you are interested please send an email with CV/resume,
code samples, links to OSS projects, etc to jobs at weotta.com.
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From jjinux at gmail.com  Tue Jun  2 06:00:01 2009
From: jjinux at gmail.com (Shannon -jj Behrens)
Date: Mon, 1 Jun 2009 21:00:01 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] courses for beginners....
In-Reply-To: <009801c9e2fe$d09b9ec0$71d2dc40$@net>
References: <006201c9e2e8$b58ebb50$20ac31f0$@net>
	<009801c9e2fe$d09b9ec0$71d2dc40$@net>
Message-ID: <c41f67b90906012100h2a31a416k52765dd056e20e02@mail.gmail.com>

I don't think SICP, "Learning Python", etc. are appropriate.  "Python
for Dummies" might be.  I've helped a few people get started
programming over the years.  Recently, I've been hearing good things
from newbies about "Python Programming: An Introduction to Computer
Science": http://www.amazon.com/Python-Programming-Introduction-Computer-Science/dp/1887902996

I think all it takes to learn to program is a) dedication b) a good
book c) someone to answer questions d) (optionally) a computer ;)  I'm
almost always willing to answer questions if they're sent politely via
email ;)

Best Regards,
-jj

On Mon, Jun 1, 2009 at 2:20 PM, Antonio <aps at supergrids.net> wrote:
> Hi Folks,
>
>
>
> Thanks for the responses and good ideas.
>
>
>
> I'm afraid I should have been clearer... she is a native English speaker,
>
> but lives in France.? She is only here for one year [info given to show
>
> time limitations for courses in the Bay area, before going home...].
>
> Also, she a beginner at programming and while many books recommended
>
> are quite good, seems likely she will need a course to get started.
>
>
>
> At the risk of starting arguments [Let's NOT...] would probably be good
>
> to get her started in courses with Py 3.x being covered, since she'll
>
> have no prior programming work to support, etc.
>
>
>
>
>
> From: baypiggies-bounces+aps=supergrids.net at python.org
> [mailto:baypiggies-bounces+aps=supergrids.net at python.org] On Behalf Of
> Antonio
> Sent: Monday, June 01, 2009 11:42 AM
> To: baypiggies at python.org
> Subject: [Baypiggies] courses for beginners....
>
>
>
> Hi Folks,
>
>
>
> A business associate has a young visitor for a year [she lives in France,
> but is American]
>
> & wants to learn to program Python.? Normal 4yr degree Comp Sci courses
> don't make
>
> sense, nor do community colleges with "out of state" tuition for this young
> person.
>
>
>
> Any suggestions for someone in her circumstance?? [she appears to be serious
> and
>
> dedicated to pursue this]
>
>
>
>
>
> Thanks,
>
> Antonio
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Baypiggies mailing list
> Baypiggies at python.org
> To change your subscription options or unsubscribe:
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies
>



-- 
In this life we cannot do great things. We can only do small things
with great love. -- Mother Teresa
http://jjinux.blogspot.com/

From charles.merriam at gmail.com  Tue Jun  2 07:04:10 2009
From: charles.merriam at gmail.com (Charles Merriam)
Date: Mon, 1 Jun 2009 22:04:10 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] courses for beginners....
In-Reply-To: <c41f67b90906012100h2a31a416k52765dd056e20e02@mail.gmail.com>
References: <006201c9e2e8$b58ebb50$20ac31f0$@net>
	<009801c9e2fe$d09b9ec0$71d2dc40$@net>
	<c41f67b90906012100h2a31a416k52765dd056e20e02@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <b8c6f6c40906012204t7aca518at429631aafe45b343@mail.gmail.com>

Well, hmm...

I would suggest a regular class, ask for tutoring time from the list.
I expect to be available from time to time.

For books, try "Think like a computer scientist" or "Hello, World".

-- Charles

On Mon, Jun 1, 2009 at 9:00 PM, Shannon -jj Behrens <jjinux at gmail.com> wrote:
> I don't think SICP, "Learning Python", etc. are appropriate. ?"Python
> for Dummies" might be. ?I've helped a few people get started
> programming over the years. ?Recently, I've been hearing good things
> from newbies about "Python Programming: An Introduction to Computer
> Science": http://www.amazon.com/Python-Programming-Introduction-Computer-Science/dp/1887902996
>
> I think all it takes to learn to program is a) dedication b) a good
> book c) someone to answer questions d) (optionally) a computer ;) ?I'm
> almost always willing to answer questions if they're sent politely via
> email ;)
>
> Best Regards,
> -jj
>
> On Mon, Jun 1, 2009 at 2:20 PM, Antonio <aps at supergrids.net> wrote:
>> Hi Folks,
>>
>>
>>
>> Thanks for the responses and good ideas.
>>
>>
>>
>> I'm afraid I should have been clearer... she is a native English speaker,
>>
>> but lives in France.? She is only here for one year [info given to show
>>
>> time limitations for courses in the Bay area, before going home...].
>>
>> Also, she a beginner at programming and while many books recommended
>>
>> are quite good, seems likely she will need a course to get started.
>>
>>
>>
>> At the risk of starting arguments [Let's NOT...] would probably be good
>>
>> to get her started in courses with Py 3.x being covered, since she'll
>>
>> have no prior programming work to support, etc.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> From: baypiggies-bounces+aps=supergrids.net at python.org
>> [mailto:baypiggies-bounces+aps=supergrids.net at python.org] On Behalf Of
>> Antonio
>> Sent: Monday, June 01, 2009 11:42 AM
>> To: baypiggies at python.org
>> Subject: [Baypiggies] courses for beginners....
>>
>>
>>
>> Hi Folks,
>>
>>
>>
>> A business associate has a young visitor for a year [she lives in France,
>> but is American]
>>
>> & wants to learn to program Python.? Normal 4yr degree Comp Sci courses
>> don't make
>>
>> sense, nor do community colleges with "out of state" tuition for this young
>> person.
>>
>>
>>
>> Any suggestions for someone in her circumstance?? [she appears to be serious
>> and
>>
>> dedicated to pursue this]
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Antonio
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Baypiggies mailing list
>> Baypiggies at python.org
>> To change your subscription options or unsubscribe:
>> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies
>>
>
>
>
> --
> In this life we cannot do great things. We can only do small things
> with great love. -- Mother Teresa
> http://jjinux.blogspot.com/
> _______________________________________________
> Baypiggies mailing list
> Baypiggies at python.org
> To change your subscription options or unsubscribe:
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies
>

From bob at redivi.com  Tue Jun  2 22:23:44 2009
From: bob at redivi.com (Bob Ippolito)
Date: Tue, 2 Jun 2009 13:23:44 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] [RECRUITER] Finding work - Company: MochiMedia
	(S.F.)
In-Reply-To: <8c82d77b0905290748m2fa3e635jbc52013ff2e2502b@mail.gmail.com>
References: <8c82d77b0905290748m2fa3e635jbc52013ff2e2502b@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <6a36e7290906021323x1a9446c7t504c86fb96f13b7f@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, May 29, 2009 at 7:48 AM, Elan <elan.martinez at gmail.com> wrote:
> Company: MochiMedia (www.mochimedia.com)
> Location: S.F. (Mission St. between 1st and 2nd St.)

I don't know what Elan is thinking but they are not currently
authorized to recruit for Mochi Media. In early 2008 we had used a
recruiting firm that Elan was associated with, but we are not
currently retaining their services and do not have any agreement with
Elan to my knowledge. Please ignore this posting, sorry for the noise.

-bob

From elan.martinez at gmail.com  Tue Jun  2 22:58:02 2009
From: elan.martinez at gmail.com (elan.martinez at gmail.com)
Date: Tue, 2 Jun 2009 20:58:02 +0000
Subject: [Baypiggies] [RECRUITER] Finding work - Company: MochiMedia
	(S.F.)
Message-ID: <263179923-1243976287-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-895846209-@bxe1283.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>

Hi Bob- just to clear the confusion, I was not posting your company as a place where I recruit for currently. If you had seen the original thread, this thread was meant as an informational resource for companies who use python, and I in no way was suggesting that I represented Mochi Media.  (There is a seperate JOBS postng area for companies reps or those representing your comapny to  post jobs).   In my posting you will see that I suggested to anyone interested in Mochi to apply directly at the company site.  I only offered up myself as an additional informational for anyone who may have wanted some additional insight.

So apologies for any confusion.

Best,
Elan

------Original Message------
From: Bob Ippolito
To: Elan Martinez
Cc: baypiggies at python.org
Sent: Jun 2, 2009 13:23
Subject: Re: [Baypiggies] [RECRUITER] Finding work - Company: MochiMedia (S.F.)

On Fri, May 29, 2009 at 7:48 AM, Elan <elan.martinez at gmail.com> wrote:
> Company: MochiMedia (www.mochimedia.com)
> Location: S.F. (Mission St. between 1st and 2nd St.)

I don't know what Elan is thinking but they are not currently
authorized to recruit for Mochi Media. In early 2008 we had used a
recruiting firm that Elan was associated with, but we are not
currently retaining their services and do not have any agreement with
Elan to my knowledge. Please ignore this posting, sorry for the noise.

-bob


Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T

From elan.martinez at gmail.com  Tue Jun  2 23:03:33 2009
From: elan.martinez at gmail.com (elan.martinez at gmail.com)
Date: Tue, 2 Jun 2009 21:03:33 +0000
Subject: [Baypiggies] [RECRUITER] Finding work - Company: MochiMedia
	(S.F.)
Message-ID: <125862496-1243976616-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1793230339-@bxe1283.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>

Bob - I just replied to you and the group. The BayPiggies thread was an information resource for developers to directly contact resources who used Python. Not a thread for those who recruit for or represent the come on over. Although reps were also encouraged to post information.

Best,
Elan
------Original Message------
From: Bob Ippolito
To: Elan Martinez
Cc: baypiggies at python.org
Sent: Jun 2, 2009 13:23
Subject: Re: [Baypiggies] [RECRUITER] Finding work - Company: MochiMedia (S.F.)

On Fri, May 29, 2009 at 7:48 AM, Elan <elan.martinez at gmail.com> wrote:
> Company: MochiMedia (www.mochimedia.com)
> Location: S.F. (Mission St. between 1st and 2nd St.)

I don't know what Elan is thinking but they are not currently
authorized to recruit for Mochi Media. In early 2008 we had used a
recruiting firm that Elan was associated with, but we are not
currently retaining their services and do not have any agreement with
Elan to my knowledge. Please ignore this posting, sorry for the noise.

-bob


Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T

From elan.martinez at gmail.com  Tue Jun  2 23:05:31 2009
From: elan.martinez at gmail.com (elan.martinez at gmail.com)
Date: Tue, 2 Jun 2009 21:05:31 +0000
Subject: [Baypiggies] [RECRUITER] Finding work - Company: MochiMedia
	(S.F.)
Message-ID: <436697587-1243976734-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1246503367-@bxe1283.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>

Bob - I just replied to you and the group. The BayPiggies thread was an information resource for developers to directly contact resources who used Python. Not a thread for those who recruit for or represent companies( Although reps were also encouraged to post information.). I hope that clears any confusion.

Best,
Elan
------Original Message------
From: Bob Ippolito
To: Elan Martinez
Cc: baypiggies at python.org
Sent: Jun 2, 2009 13:23
Subject: Re: [Baypiggies] [RECRUITER] Finding work - Company: MochiMedia (S.F.)

On Fri, May 29, 2009 at 7:48 AM, Elan <elan.martinez at gmail.com> wrote:
> Company: MochiMedia (www.mochimedia.com)
> Location: S.F. (Mission St. between 1st and 2nd St.)

I don't know what Elan is thinking but they are not currently
authorized to recruit for Mochi Media. In early 2008 we had used a
recruiting firm that Elan was associated with, but we are not
currently retaining their services and do not have any agreement with
Elan to my knowledge. Please ignore this posting, sorry for the noise.

-bob


Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T

From wescpy at gmail.com  Wed Jun  3 08:02:55 2009
From: wescpy at gmail.com (wesley chun)
Date: Tue, 2 Jun 2009 23:02:55 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] [ANNOUNCE] Python on non-relational databases (SF
	Python Meetup, Wed 	6/10, 7p)
Message-ID: <78b3a9580906022302k77e96a3ci32093e8e13ebed17@mail.gmail.com>

below is the announcement for the next SF Python Meetup next week in
case any of you can make it.

cheers,
-wesley

---
Announcing a new Meetup for San Francisco Python Meetup Group!

What: Python on non-relational databases
When: June 10, 2009 7:00 PM
Where: Click the link below to find out!

Meetup Description: This month, we have some special guests from New
York giving us a sneak preview of their presentation in Euro Python
Conference.

Abstract

We will start by briefly discussing the trend towards the use of
non-relational databases, including CouchDB, MongoDB, Big Table,
SimpleDB, etc. We will mention the use cases that have caused these
databases to be developed and briefly discuss the differences between
them.

Next we will discus some real world use cases for non-relational
databases, using MongoDB as a concrete example. This will include
demonstrations and discussion of Python code using MongoDB.

Finally we'll open the floor to Q&A.

Main speaker:
Mike Dirolf is a software engineer working for 10gen in New York City.
He has been programming in Python since 2003 and handles all Python
support for MongoDB, 10gen's document-oriented database. Mike received
a B.S.E. in Computer Science from Princeton University.

Guest speaker:
Dwight Merriman co-founded DoubleClick in 1995 and served as its CTO
for ten years. He was the architect of the DoubleClick ad serving
infrastructure, DART, which serves tens of billions of ads per day.
Dwight is also the co-founder, Chairman, and the original architect of
Panther Express (now part of CDNetworks), a content distribution
network (CDN) technology which serves hundreds of thousands of objects
per second. He is also a
board member of the web photo/video sharing company Phanfare. Dwight
received a B.S. in Systems Analysis/Computer Science from Miami
University of Ohio.


Agenda-
6:30p - 7:00p Pizza and Networking
7:00p - 8:30p Main talk / Q&A

Please RSVP so we know how much food to order ;-)

About Slide's office:
2.5 blocks from Cal Train
Easy parking along 2nd street and Brannan

Thanks,

Grace Law

Learn more here:
http://www.meetup.com/sfpython/calendar/10561903/

From andrew at stagetwoconsulting.com  Wed Jun  3 12:23:30 2009
From: andrew at stagetwoconsulting.com (Andrew Kippen)
Date: Wed, 3 Jun 2009 03:23:30 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] Python + Boxee
Message-ID: <E9EC072C-6FAB-418D-B3F9-56CFA776192E@stagetwoconsulting.com>

Hi Piggies

I'm new to the group as I'm learning Python (thanks for all the recent  
recommendations for beginners) to start programming on boxee, a  
company I do some work for.  if you're not familiar with boxee, it's  
an open source media center project that aims to bring all your media  
into one place - whether from a HDD, LAN, or on the Net (including  
Hulu, Netflix, Pandora, Flickr).  You can find out more at http://boxee.tv 
  and if you're on Windows let me know and I'll send you over a  
Windows copy of the application.

I wanted to let all of you know that if you feel like putting your  
Python skills to use, boxee is hosting an Application Development  
Challenge with the opportunity to win a fully stocked 4TB drobo, a 46"  
TV, and/or Pogoplugs for the top apps built in XML/Python.   You can  
find all the details on the boxee website, but they're accepting  
entries in video, music, and photo categories for any content source  
you think would be cool to add - recent additions have been apps for  
drop.io, nextNewNetworks, Kutiman, and Current.TV.

The deadline is June 14th to get apps in, and there will be a boxee  
event on the 23rd in SF to announce the winners.

Hope you guys can take part, and I'm looking forward to meeting you at  
the next piggies event!

Best,
Andrew


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From aahz at pythoncraft.com  Wed Jun  3 15:01:37 2009
From: aahz at pythoncraft.com (Aahz)
Date: Wed, 3 Jun 2009 06:01:37 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] Python + Boxee
In-Reply-To: <E9EC072C-6FAB-418D-B3F9-56CFA776192E@stagetwoconsulting.com>
References: <E9EC072C-6FAB-418D-B3F9-56CFA776192E@stagetwoconsulting.com>
Message-ID: <20090603130137.GA7183@panix.com>

On Wed, Jun 03, 2009, Andrew Kippen wrote:
>
>  [...]

Reminder: if you use multiple e-mail addresses to post to a mailing
list, you need to subscribe all of them in order for posts to go through
without moderator approval.  You can set all but one to "no mail" so you
don't get duplicates.
-- 
Aahz (aahz at pythoncraft.com)           <*>         http://www.pythoncraft.com/

my-python-code-runs-5x-faster-this-month-thanks-to-dumping-$2K-
    on-a-new-machine-ly y'rs  - tim

From rob at adroll.com  Thu Jun  4 19:56:44 2009
From: rob at adroll.com (Rob Webb)
Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2009 10:56:44 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] [JOB] Python Software Engineer - Adroll.com
Message-ID: <a112279a0906041056h128f536cw7d5d88f5dc720ba7@mail.gmail.com>

Hi everyone, I'm the Product Manager at Adroll.com, which is a python shop
based in downtown San Francisco.  I've been lurking on the list for several
months now.  Some of you may know our lead scalability engineer Valentino
Volonghi who has been involved in the python community for several years.
He's the President of Python Itialia and Chairman of the PyCon Italy
conference.  We're currently looking for a solid python engineer to join our
small team.  I've attached the official posting below.  Please feel free to
contact me directly if you have any questions or concerns.  We're accepting
applications through our JobScore
account<http://adroll.jobscore.com/jobs/adroll/pythonsoftwareengineer/co7UvMncWr3R7FeJe4axtb>
.

Regards,
Rob
--

http://adroll.jobscore.com/jobs/adroll/pythonsoftwareengineer/co7UvMncWr3R7FeJe4axtb

--

Adroll is a revenue generating, venture backed startup with a small,
world-class team that is changing the world of digital advertising. Do you
get excited about working with smart people and solving challenging
problems? We are looking for a talented python software engineer to join our
team to develop and extend our web application.

The ideal candidate will:

* have previous real world experience developing for the web
* a passion for clean/concise python code
* be comfortable writing SQL queries as well as integrating with external
APIs

We believe strongly in team chemistry. Our company is a small, highly
talented group with backgrounds at Microsoft, Paypal, NASA, Y Combinator,
and Aptimus. We?re backed by some of the savviest investors in the space,
including Merus Capital and Accel Partners. Our offices are located in
downtown San Francisco near Union Square. We offer a competitive salary,
medical/dental benefits, PTO, paid holidays, and stock options.

Qualifications

* hard worker who delivers and gets stuff done
* roll-up-your-sleeves, self-starter personality
* 3+ years developing in Python
* experience with Pylons/Django
* 2+ years working with a language that isn't Python

Bonuses

* open source contributor
* knowledge of SQLAlchemy
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From niallo at unworkable.org  Thu Jun  4 23:41:34 2009
From: niallo at unworkable.org (Niall O'Higgins)
Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2009 14:41:34 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] Pylons/Web-focused meet ups in Bay Area ?
Message-ID: <20090604214134.GA31430@unworkable.org>

Hi all,

Just wondering if there are any existing meet-ups focused on
Python-based Web technologies, e.g.  WSGI/Pylons/Django/TurboGears in
the Bay Area.

Ideally this would be a forum for people to present their work,
share knowledge and collaborate.

If there aren't any already, I would be interested in starting such a
group.

Thanks!

-- 
Niall O'Higgins
http://niallohiggins.com

From eddymul at gmail.com  Thu Jun  4 23:51:57 2009
From: eddymul at gmail.com (Eddy Mulyono)
Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2009 14:51:57 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] Pylons/Web-focused meet ups in Bay Area ?
In-Reply-To: <20090604214134.GA31430@unworkable.org>
References: <20090604214134.GA31430@unworkable.org>
Message-ID: <67357fc10906041451s1bdb0ccdh70709a6a6215759e@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Jun 4, 2009 at 2:41 PM, Niall O'Higgins <niallo at unworkable.org> wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> Just wondering if there are any existing meet-ups focused on
> Python-based Web technologies, e.g. ?WSGI/Pylons/Django/TurboGears in
> the Bay Area.

There is a meet-up focused on Django at:

http://www.meetup.com/The-San-Francisco-Django-Meetup-Group

Hope that helps,

-Eddy Mulyono

From glen at glenjarvis.com  Fri Jun  5 02:38:55 2009
From: glen at glenjarvis.com (Glen Jarvis)
Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2009 17:38:55 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] [Recruiter | Sort of] Interested in Government
	Python/Django communication job?
Message-ID: <34F46BE2-238E-4133-BF79-4EB5DDBE64AC@glenjarvis.com>

I was passed a job that the previous owner wasn't interested in. I am  
currently working on a contract-to-hire position that is ideal for me.  
So, after a year plus of struggling, things are going real well. In  
fact, I'm getting leads right and left. So, instead of letting them  
go, let's help out our community.

This particular job is a two year start up whose clients are  
government agencies. The work seems solid. Here are the things, from a  
programming point of view, that I can tell you. Some items raise an  
eyebrow, some are very positive. If the eyebrow raisers don't bother  
you, then you are probably a great fit and I can forward your email to  
the recruiter who is hiring (and/or give you his name and email).

* When I asked about coding standards, the recruiter didn't know  
exactly how to answer but was 'candid' that they played a little 'loose'
* The team just doubled in size within the past few months (I'm sorry,  
I don't remember exact size. I think they're about 10 or so, but it  
could be higher)
* The team is going through "growing pains" a little bit
* The CTO is very talented

I was also able to wrangle up this requirement/description:

..develop web apps using the popular Django framework

..join a team of skilled developers in a collaborative setting

..experience rapid app development at a startup with national  
recognition

- looking for all levels of python developers

- Django a big plus, other framework experience also considered

- located in SOMA District of San Francisco



It seems like a solid business model that will probably keep work  
flowing. I personally wouldn't be a fit for this company/situation,  
but maybe you are.

Let me know if you're interested and I'll forward the info on (or just  
give you the contact details).


Cheers,


Glen
--
glen at glenjarvis.com

"You must be the change you wish to see in the world." -M. Gandhi
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From glen at glenjarvis.com  Fri Jun  5 03:17:21 2009
From: glen at glenjarvis.com (Glen Jarvis)
Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2009 18:17:21 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] [Recruiter | Sort of] Choice Vendor
Message-ID: <95A7F102-1852-4BF6-8ACD-316614237AC0@glenjarvis.com>

I received this email from Rama. Would anyone here like me to forward  
them to Rama? I personally will not be pursuing this position.


--- Begin of Email ---
I received your resume from [snip], who mentioned that you might  
looking for a new position. I'm one of the founders of ChoiceVendor,  
and we're a small, venture-backed startup based in San Francisco that  
is building a web service that will help small & medium business  
owners manage their business more efficiently & effectively. You can  
see more details (but, admittedly, not too many more details :) athttp://www.choicevendor.com/about/ 
  .

Would you be interested in speaking with us regarding a position at  
ChoiceVendor? If so, let me know if you have some time next week to  
chat in person or over the phone.

Cheers,
Rama
--- End of Email ---


Cheers,


Glen
--
glen at glenjarvis.com

"You must be the change you wish to see in the world." -M. Gandhi




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From jon at inklesspen.com  Fri Jun  5 03:25:05 2009
From: jon at inklesspen.com (Jon Rosebaugh)
Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2009 18:25:05 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] [Recruiter | Sort of] Choice Vendor
In-Reply-To: <95A7F102-1852-4BF6-8ACD-316614237AC0@glenjarvis.com>
References: <95A7F102-1852-4BF6-8ACD-316614237AC0@glenjarvis.com>
Message-ID: <6517C380-517C-4EBE-B91C-BAC177A9A586@inklesspen.com>

I met with Rama and some of his guys at ChoiceVendor. They seem like a  
great group to work with.

On Jun 4, 2009, at 6:17 PM, Glen Jarvis wrote:

> I received this email from Rama. Would anyone here like me to  
> forward them to Rama? I personally will not be pursuing this position.
>
>
> --- Begin of Email ---
> I received your resume from [snip], who mentioned that you might  
> looking for a new position. I'm one of the founders of ChoiceVendor,  
> and we're a small, venture-backed startup based in San Francisco  
> that is building a web service that will help small & medium  
> business owners manage their business more efficiently &  
> effectively. You can see more details (but, admittedly, not too many  
> more details :) athttp://www.choicevendor.com/about/ .
>
> Would you be interested in speaking with us regarding a position at  
> ChoiceVendor? If so, let me know if you have some time next week to  
> chat in person or over the phone.
>
> Cheers,
> Rama
> --- End of Email ---
>
>
> Cheers,
>
>
> Glen
> --
> glen at glenjarvis.com
>
> "You must be the change you wish to see in the world." -M. Gandhi
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Baypiggies mailing list
> Baypiggies at python.org
> To change your subscription options or unsubscribe:
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies


From aahz at pythoncraft.com  Fri Jun  5 03:24:03 2009
From: aahz at pythoncraft.com (Aahz)
Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2009 18:24:03 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] [Recruiter | Sort of] Choice Vendor
In-Reply-To: <95A7F102-1852-4BF6-8ACD-316614237AC0@glenjarvis.com>
References: <95A7F102-1852-4BF6-8ACD-316614237AC0@glenjarvis.com>
Message-ID: <20090605012403.GA16750@panix.com>

On Thu, Jun 04, 2009, Glen Jarvis wrote:
>
> I received this email from Rama. Would anyone here like me to forward  
> them to Rama? I personally will not be pursuing this position.

Matt Good previously posted about this on 5/21 with more details:

http://mail.python.org/pipermail/baypiggies/2009-May/004785.html
-- 
Aahz (aahz at pythoncraft.com)           <*>         http://www.pythoncraft.com/

"Given that C++ has pointers and typecasts, it's really hard to have a
serious conversation about type safety with a C++ programmer and keep a
straight face.  It's kind of like having a guy who juggles chainsaws
wearing body armor arguing with a guy who juggles rubber chickens wearing
a T-shirt about who's in more danger."  --Roy Smith, c.l.py, 2004.05.23

From glen at glenjarvis.com  Fri Jun  5 03:55:00 2009
From: glen at glenjarvis.com (Glen Jarvis)
Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2009 18:55:00 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] [Recruiter][SPAM] Python Software Engineering/San
	Francisco
References: <17298432.1244149320394.JavaMail.coldfusion_user@APP103>
Message-ID: <29BC9F8E-C05C-4DA4-B5A3-2C697BA79D5D@glenjarvis.com>

I received this in my inbox from an unknown recruiter. I'm sorry to  
SPAM the group, but I know currently we're relaxing our rules to help  
our community in tougher times. Therefore, I'm forwarding this on in  
case it's helpful -- it is NOT a qualified lead.

Glen

Begin forwarded message:

> From: Geoff Savage <geoff at techounds.com>
> Date: June 4, 2009 2:02:00 PM PDT
> To: glen at glenjarvis.com
> Subject: SAN FRANCISCO - PYTHON SOFTWARE ENGINEER JOB
> Reply-To: geoff at techounds.com
>
> Hi,
>
> Currently we have a Software Engineer Job opening in downtown San  
> Francisco near Union Square
> $75,000 - $100,000 plus bonus
> The Company is a very stable Web Application Software Development  
> Firm. You will part of a small Software Engineering team responsible  
> for both web based client side and server side development for a  
> suite of content-rich web applications using Python and other Open  
> Source technologies.
>
> The ideal candidate is someone who understands the Internet and will  
> focus on improving our Digital Software. Our Client is a venture  
> backed startup with a small, world-class team that is changing the  
> world of digital advertising. Do you get excited about working with  
> smart people and solving challenging problems? We are looking for a  
> talented python software engineer to join our team to develop and  
> extend our web application
> Qualifications
>
>     * A hard worker who delivers and gets stuff done
>     * A roll-up-your-sleeves, self-starter personality
>     * 3+ years developing in Python
>     * Experience with Pylons/Django
>     * 2+ years working with a language that isn't Python
>
>     * have previous real world experience developing for the web
>     * a passion for clean/concise python code
>     * Write SQL queries as well as integrating with external APIs
>     * Open source contributor
>     * Knowledge of SQL Alchemy
>
> Full benefits to all employees including a matched 401(k), paid time  
> off, full medical, vision, dental.
>
> If you are interested, feel free to e-mail me your resume at geoff at techounds.com
>
> ? or call me 949-495-1200
> Geoff Savage
> Recruiting Manager
> TecHounds LLC
> www.techounds.com
> Technical recruiting services
>






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From aahz at pythoncraft.com  Fri Jun  5 04:09:18 2009
From: aahz at pythoncraft.com (Aahz)
Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2009 19:09:18 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] Python Software Engineering/San Francisco
In-Reply-To: <29BC9F8E-C05C-4DA4-B5A3-2C697BA79D5D@glenjarvis.com>
References: <17298432.1244149320394.JavaMail.coldfusion_user@APP103>
	<29BC9F8E-C05C-4DA4-B5A3-2C697BA79D5D@glenjarvis.com>
Message-ID: <20090605020918.GA2030@panix.com>

On Thu, Jun 04, 2009, Glen Jarvis wrote:
>
> I received this in my inbox from an unknown recruiter. I'm sorry to SPAM 
> the group, but I know currently we're relaxing our rules to help our 
> community in tougher times. Therefore, I'm forwarding this on in case 
> it's helpful -- it is NOT a qualified lead.

This is for adroll.com, compare with today's post from Rob Webb:

http://mail.python.org/pipermail/baypiggies/2009-June/004887.html

Glen, unless you put a bit more effort into vetting ads, I think it would
be better if you stopped for now -- it's important for the community to
see any specific job only once per month, preferably from the company
that is offering the job, which is why we had the original restrictive
rules.  If you're not the company offering the job, please CAREFULLY
review ads from the previous month to ensure that you're not duplicating.

I'm not biting your head off, just keeping the focus on maintaining a
high signal-to-noise ratio.

(This isn't directed only at Glen, BTW, but everyone who is posting ads.)
-- 
Aahz (aahz at pythoncraft.com)           <*>         http://www.pythoncraft.com/

"Given that C++ has pointers and typecasts, it's really hard to have a
serious conversation about type safety with a C++ programmer and keep a
straight face.  It's kind of like having a guy who juggles chainsaws
wearing body armor arguing with a guy who juggles rubber chickens wearing
a T-shirt about who's in more danger."  --Roy Smith, c.l.py, 2004.05.23

From glen at glenjarvis.com  Fri Jun  5 04:22:16 2009
From: glen at glenjarvis.com (Glen Jarvis)
Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2009 19:22:16 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] Python Software Engineering/San Francisco
In-Reply-To: <20090605020918.GA2030@panix.com>
References: <17298432.1244149320394.JavaMail.coldfusion_user@APP103>
	<29BC9F8E-C05C-4DA4-B5A3-2C697BA79D5D@glenjarvis.com>
	<20090605020918.GA2030@panix.com>
Message-ID: <C3F54642-C168-46BB-9B6A-F8234682C438@glenjarvis.com>

>> I received this in my inbox from an unknown recruiter. I'm sorry to  
>> SPAM
>> the group, but I know currently we're relaxing our rules to help our
>> community in tougher times. Therefore, I'm forwarding this on in case
>> it's helpful -- it is NOT a qualified lead.
>
> This is for adroll.com, compare with today's post from Rob Webb:
>
> http://mail.python.org/pipermail/baypiggies/2009-June/004887.html
>
> Glen, unless you put a bit more effort into vetting ads, I think it  
> would
> be better if you stopped for now

Doh! I let two duplicates slip through. I apologize for that. I'm  
cleaning my inbox, trying to keep BayPIGgies in mind, but am not doing  
a very good job of qualifying these before they get sent.

> -- it's important for the community to
> see any specific job only once per month, preferably from the company
> that is offering the job, which is why wbe had the original  
> restrictive
> rules

Agreed. Again, apologies.

> I'm not biting your head off, just keeping the focus on maintaining a
> high signal-to-noise ratio.
>
> (This isn't directed only at Glen, BTW, but everyone who is posting  
> ads.)

I agree -- too much can be SPAM. This is the reason we have the  
original rules. This is another problem of working top down in an  
inbox when cleaning it out. I try to keep a clean box, but got up to  
150 messages the past few days... Obviously, since this is a newer  
mail, I didn't see it until *after* I did all the above forwarding.  
Again, sorry for the noise.

Glen
--
glen at glenjarvis.com

"You must be the change you wish to see in the world." -M. Gandhi




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From jdsw2002 at yahoo.com  Fri Jun  5 09:53:42 2009
From: jdsw2002 at yahoo.com (jd)
Date: Fri, 5 Jun 2009 00:53:42 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Baypiggies] Pylons/Web-focused meet ups in Bay Area ?
Message-ID: <390961.29367.qm@web35804.mail.mud.yahoo.com>


I would be very interested in joining such a group if one is started/exist. Though I have noticed that fair number of people on this list have good experience on Django..etc.

 We have recently launched a project using TG2 and extjs. Would love to chat with someone to get over initial hump and architecture / design discussions. Any one interested, drop me an email.

Thanks
/Jd


--- On Thu, 6/4/09, Niall O'Higgins <niallo at unworkable.org> wrote:

> From: Niall O'Higgins <niallo at unworkable.org>
> Subject: [Baypiggies] Pylons/Web-focused meet ups in Bay Area ?
> To: baypiggies at python.org
> Date: Thursday, June 4, 2009, 2:41 PM
> Hi all,
> 
> Just wondering if there are any existing meet-ups focused
> on
> Python-based Web technologies, e.g. 
> WSGI/Pylons/Django/TurboGears in
> the Bay Area.
> 
> Ideally this would be a forum for people to present their
> work,
> share knowledge and collaborate.
> 
> If there aren't any already, I would be interested in
> starting such a
> group.
> 
> Thanks!
> 
> -- 
> Niall O'Higgins
> http://niallohiggins.com
> _______________________________________________
> Baypiggies mailing list
> Baypiggies at python.org
> To change your subscription options or unsubscribe:
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies
> 


      

From wescpy at gmail.com  Fri Jun  5 20:10:09 2009
From: wescpy at gmail.com (wesley chun)
Date: Fri, 5 Jun 2009 11:10:09 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] new local Python meetup
Message-ID: <78b3a9580906051110w25f09383v9cb88c3e882830@mail.gmail.com>

interesting... here's something new someone's trying to start up:
http://www.meetup.com/silicon-valley-python/

anyone know the founder(s) of this meetup or the company that has
volunteered to host these meetings?

-wesley

From daryl.spitzer at gmail.com  Fri Jun  5 21:06:05 2009
From: daryl.spitzer at gmail.com (Daryl Spitzer)
Date: Fri, 5 Jun 2009 12:06:05 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] new local Python meetup
In-Reply-To: <78b3a9580906051110w25f09383v9cb88c3e882830@mail.gmail.com>
References: <78b3a9580906051110w25f09383v9cb88c3e882830@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <fbf2758a0906051206y5e350240k562125136ad8794c@mail.gmail.com>

I got a message (through Meetup) from "Matin" the founder.  H'e just
moved out here from the East Coast and wasn't aware of BayPIGgies.  He
wrote that he wants a "monthly meetup where [he] can get some speakers
to come in".

I'll point out that such a group already exists in this area.

--
Daryl


On Fri, Jun 5, 2009 at 11:10 AM, wesley chun <wescpy at gmail.com> wrote:
> interesting... here's something new someone's trying to start up:
> http://www.meetup.com/silicon-valley-python/
>
> anyone know the founder(s) of this meetup or the company that has
> volunteered to host these meetings?
>
> -wesley
> _______________________________________________
> Baypiggies mailing list
> Baypiggies at python.org
> To change your subscription options or unsubscribe:
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies
>

From ebrown at techmart.com  Sat Jun  6 03:32:13 2009
From: ebrown at techmart.com (Eric W. Brown)
Date: Fri, 05 Jun 2009 18:32:13 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] new local Python meetup
In-Reply-To: <fbf2758a0906051206y5e350240k562125136ad8794c@mail.gmail.com>
References: <78b3a9580906051110w25f09383v9cb88c3e882830@mail.gmail.com>
	<fbf2758a0906051206y5e350240k562125136ad8794c@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4A29C71D.3080901@techmart.com>

Daryl Spitzer wrote:
> I got a message (through Meetup) from "Matin" the founder.  H'e just
> moved out here from the East Coast and wasn't aware of BayPIGgies.  He
> wrote that he wants a "monthly meetup where [he] can get some speakers
> to come in".
>
> I'll point out that such a group already exists in this area.
>
> --
> Daryl
>   

It is actually very convenient to where I work, it would be very easy to go,
except that it is conflicting with SVLUG ...

Eric


From tony at tcapp.com  Sat Jun  6 05:44:15 2009
From: tony at tcapp.com (Tony Cappellini)
Date: Fri, 5 Jun 2009 20:44:15 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] new local Python meetup
In-Reply-To: <4A29C71D.3080901@techmart.com>
References: <78b3a9580906051110w25f09383v9cb88c3e882830@mail.gmail.com>
	<fbf2758a0906051206y5e350240k562125136ad8794c@mail.gmail.com>
	<4A29C71D.3080901@techmart.com>
Message-ID: <8249c4ac0906052044p66f5d137qa138ac0ec47392ec@mail.gmail.com>

I believe this is the second Python Meetup/Mashup group in this area.

I remember seeing another one over the last few years- and saw
Wesley's posts for the BayPiggies meeting announcements in their
message traffic.


On 6/5/09, Eric W. Brown <ebrown at techmart.com> wrote:
> Daryl Spitzer wrote:
>
> > I got a message (through Meetup) from "Matin" the founder.  H'e just
> > moved out here from the East Coast and wasn't aware of BayPIGgies.  He
> > wrote that he wants a "monthly meetup where [he] can get some speakers
> > to come in".
> >
> > I'll point out that such a group already exists in this area.
> >
> > --
> > Daryl
> >
> >
>
>  It is actually very convenient to where I work, it would be very easy to
> go,
>  except that it is conflicting with SVLUG ...
>
>  Eric
>
>
>  _______________________________________________
>  Baypiggies mailing list
>  Baypiggies at python.org
>  To change your subscription options or unsubscribe:
>  http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies
>

From elan.martinez at gmail.com  Sat Jun  6 08:30:58 2009
From: elan.martinez at gmail.com (Elan)
Date: Fri, 5 Jun 2009 23:30:58 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] [RECRUITER] Finding work - Company: Keas (S.F.) -
	updated info
Message-ID: <8c82d77b0906052330hf63d5a7qc38b1cc97ecea158@mail.gmail.com>

I wanted to pass this quick update to anyone who may be interested in this
company---> The recruiter contact listed Ricky Fiel is no longer with the
company.  If anyone is interested in inquiring about possible openings in
the engineering team, I would suggest you direct any questions to the
contact listed on the website, or, go to Linkedin and network/connect with a
current employee.

Also just as an fyi, Ricky is a solid recruiter who has maintained a good
relationship with each company he has worked (and both python embracing
environments, Rearden Commerce, Keas).  He too may be able to assist you
with any inquiries at either company.  He can be contacted by email at:
ricky.p.fiel at gmail.com.

-e-


On Thu, May 21, 2009 at 1:21 AM, Elan <elan.martinez at gmail.com> wrote:

> Company: Keas, (www.keas.com)
> Location: HQ in Downtown S.F.  (1st St. btw Mission and Market)
>
> Keas is an early stage consumer health start-up that is still in
> "stealth"/has not publicly launched.  They do have a private beta out.  The
> company was founded by Adam Bosworth and George Kassabgi in 2008.  George is
> a longtime entrepreneur and (among other accomplishments) was a key person
> over at BEA.  Adam is the engineering pioneer who authored XML and (among
> other accomplishments) developed Google Calendar and MS Access. Most
> recently Adam built Google <http://www.google.com/> Health before leaving
> to start Keas.  Candidates who are selected by Keas for interview will be
> asked to sign an NDA after which more about the company will be divulged.
> For now one can gleen some info about Keas on Keas.com and Adam's blog:
> http://adambosworth.net/2007/12/22/talking-about-keas/
>
> Technologies used include Python with a Zope framework (Zope may have since
> been replaced with Django or TurboGears/Pylons in the past few months but I
> can't confirm this right now) , and in an agile (scrum) test-driven
> iterative environment.  AJAX, mySQL, memcached, etc.
>
> The Opportunity: In brief, engineers will be building a health 2.0 consumer
> facing website, and designing software solutions for hard infomatics and
> data analysis problems.  The company is always on the lookout for
> experienced individual contributors who have deep experience with Java or
> Python, have solid problem solving skills and who like to learn new
> technologies and pick up new programming languages quickly.  Smart,
> "young-ish"/or young at heart, entrepreneurial co-workers, who tend to have
> strong C.S. fundamentals, and solid work experience building high volume,
> high transaction, highly available consumer web applications.  Very
> accessible hands on leadership.
>
> Interviews: A three step process.  Recruiter screening, Manager phone
> technical screening, On-site interviews.  You may also be asked to provide
> code samples. They have a very rigorous on-site interview process (which is
> long - all day) that Adam imported from Google (which I'm not knowledgeable
> about.) It's an all day affair, long and comprehensive.  If you are invited
> to interview and can't commit to a full day of interviews you can always
> break it up into two days.
>
> Compensation: Competitive salaries and in the middle to upper range
> compared to other startups and still offering good equity on top of salary.
> Be clear from the beginning whether you value more salary or more equity.
> They do not like to go back and forth on offers.  This company is very fair
> when it comes to compensation.
>
> Contacts: I cannot give out contact info of hiring managers or founders.
> There is a competent in-house recruiter, you can find his info on linkedin,
> his name is Ricky Fiel.  Ricky is diligent and responsive but does not have
> a great deal of experience and so may not be the best assesor of technical
> skill and talent and will most likely rely heavily on a his managers for
> resume feedback.   His email is: ricky.fiel at keas.com.  If you would like
> his phone number, ask me in an email.
>
> (note: if you are interested in this company and would like to ask
> questions I'm happy to chat and provide as much info and help as I can.  I
> am also happy to make a direct introduction to the founders if that is your
> preference vs. connecting with the in-house recruiter as your first point of
> contact.)
>
> ***** wow I may have gone overboard with the details here....  my next
> posting will not be quite as long.... the next company from me will be
> posted sometime on Thursday*****
>
>
>
>
> On Wed, May 20, 2009 at 9:09 PM, Shannon -jj Behrens <jjinux at gmail.com>wrote:
>
>> On Wed, May 20, 2009 at 6:44 PM, Elan <elan.martinez at gmail.com> wrote:
>> > Excellent jj (mr. moderator)!  I think this can work.
>> >
>> > BTW, to be clear I want to encourage EVERYONE to contribute and not just
>> > recruiters, especially since my guess is that most fee-based recruiters
>> > (definitely not all) will be reluctant to contribute if they are not
>> getting
>> > a fee or if they feel paranoid about other recruiters "stealing" leads
>> or
>> > contacts.  My comment to those recruiters... if you have a strong client
>> > relationship there's no reason to worry, and remember you do not have to
>> > include any clients you are currently working with.  If everyone chips
>> in to
>> > do what they can we will all benefit in the long run.
>> >
>> > So jj and everyone else, I would love to start this all off immediately
>> but
>> > I'm going to wait to post my leads until tonight.  I have a couple of
>> > stealth co's in S.F. that I would like to list, but need to confirm that
>> > they are still actively hiring python engineers, who I can list as
>> > preferred contacts and also how much I can divulge about the companies.
>> I
>> > also have a couple fo non-stealth co's based in S.F. that I will post
>> but
>> > need to confirm the same info.  Please, to those who may post before me,
>> do
>> > the best you can to provide current and relevant information to the job
>> > seekers in this community.
>>
>> I'll second that.  Here's my hint to the recruiters of the world.  I
>> don't really care who the VCs are or where the CEO went to college.
>> Sure, I might want to know those things eventually, but first I want
>> to know:
>>
>> a) What technologies does the company use?
>> b) Where are they located?
>> c) Can they afford to pay me a decent salary?
>> d) What positions are they hiring for?
>>
>> After knowing those things, I'll want to know:
>>
>> e) Is this a sweatshop?
>> f) How does the company develop software (fast and dirty?  agile?
>>  clueless?)?
>>
>> My $0.02,
>> -jj
>>
>> --
>> In this life we cannot do great things. We can only do small things
>> with great love. -- Mother Teresa
>> http://jjinux.blogspot.com/
>>
>
>
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From cappy2112 at gmail.com  Sat Jun  6 08:43:39 2009
From: cappy2112 at gmail.com (Tony Cappellini)
Date: Fri, 5 Jun 2009 23:43:39 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] RPyc anyone?
Message-ID: <8249c4ac0906052343h6becf251ke564ca3cf786022c@mail.gmail.com>

Has anyone here used RPyc?
http://rpyc.wikidot.com/

From roderick at sanfransystems.com  Sat Jun  6 17:33:27 2009
From: roderick at sanfransystems.com (Roderick Llewellyn)
Date: Sat, 6 Jun 2009 08:33:27 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] Finding work - Company: Keas (S.F.)
References: <mailman.4550.1244270203.8014.baypiggies@python.org>
Message-ID: <CBA5D53A9AFF49AFA7E24A09922E2E6A@orion>

I'm curious what the part of the post that says that Keas is looking for 
people who are "young-ish"/or young at heart means. I've already encountered 
in the computer industry a lot of age discrimination. You all should know 
that it is illegal. It is also immoral, and is no different from racism, or 
sexism, or any other method of turning people down for any reason other than 
their abilities. Older people need work too! What would you all think if 
Keas said they're looking for people who are "white-ish"? Companies get away 
with it because it is very hard to prove in court. Is this company putting 
such a policy in writing? Does their statement of what they're looking for 
mean that, for example, since I'm not a GenX, I have no chance whatsoever of 
being hired there, regardless of my programming ability?


From jim at well.com  Sat Jun  6 18:45:01 2009
From: jim at well.com (jim)
Date: Sat, 06 Jun 2009 09:45:01 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] Spamalot/Next BayPIGgies meeting date
In-Reply-To: <EAE75948-F998-4BE8-9562-21256D553A8D@glenjarvis.com>
References: <EAE75948-F998-4BE8-9562-21256D553A8D@glenjarvis.com>
Message-ID: <1244306701.6311.45.camel@jim-laptop>


   the next baypiggies meeting is june 25: 
alex martelli on abstraction. 


On Sat, 2009-05-30 at 10:56 -0700, Glen Jarvis wrote:
> I intentionally didn't organize the date for Spamalot so I could get a
> list of interested people first. I want to make certain we don't pick
> a date that several people who are interested in attending can't make.
> 
> 
> I have a list of interested people now. We are planning on a Thursday
> (same time of the week as BayPIGgies). We're not going immediately
> because immediate seats are sold out. 
> 
> 
> I'm planning one of these days:
> a) Thr, 4-June
> b) Thr, 11-June
> c) Thr, 18-June
> d) Thr, 25-June
> 
> 
> Jim, which one of the above is our next BayPIGgies, so I don't
> schedule on the same night.
> 
> 
> If you're still interested in Spamalot, please send me an email. Here
> are ticket prices for Thursday evenings:
> 
> 
> Side Balcony $30.00
> Balcony $40.00
> Mezzanine $70.00
> Orchestra/Loge $70.00
> 
> 
> There has not yet been any discussion on if we split up (so we can
> choose prices we're happier with on price or location), but meet back
> up at intermission. We can also arrange a time before/after for
> socializing.
> 
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Glen
> --
> glen at glenjarvis.com
> 
> 
> 'You're a looney'
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 


From elan.martinez at gmail.com  Sat Jun  6 18:49:31 2009
From: elan.martinez at gmail.com (elan.martinez at gmail.com)
Date: Sat, 6 Jun 2009 16:49:31 +0000
Subject: [Baypiggies] Finding work - Company: Keas (S.F.)
In-Reply-To: <CBA5D53A9AFF49AFA7E24A09922E2E6A@orion>
References: <mailman.4550.1244270203.8014.baypiggies@python.org><CBA5D53A9AFF49AFA7E24A09922E2E6A@orion>
Message-ID: <1044999398-1244306978-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-166471855-@bxe1283.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>

My apologies. My intent was not to offend.  I'll be sure to be extra careful choosing my words next time.  First, that was (clearly) my posting, I do not work for the company, and I know that they are a solid organization and do not discriminate in any way.  Again, please remember that the intent of this thread was to give contributors the opportunity to provide helpful information to engineers in the this community about companies with python envirionments.  There is a separate "Jobs" page on the BayPiggies site.

So again, apologies if you were offended in any way.  And given your interpretation of the image I was trying to paint, perhaps that was a bad choice of words by me.   My intent was to paint a picture/give a sense of the kind of exuberance, energy and spirit found in kids/youths...  Questioning everything, exploring everything and ready to spin in circles until till they dropped..... "Young at heart".... 60 or 26 if you like, age wasn't the point, but the wild cheerful spirit of a 6year old was.    

Anyhow, thank you for your thoughts, In the future I'll be more careful about how I convey my thoughts and opinions.

Best,
E.


Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T

-----Original Message-----
From: "Roderick Llewellyn" <roderick at sanfransystems.com>

Date: Sat, 6 Jun 2009 08:33:27 
To: <baypiggies at python.org>
Subject: [Baypiggies] Finding work - Company: Keas (S.F.)


I'm curious what the part of the post that says that Keas is looking for 
people who are "young-ish"/or young at heart means. I've already encountered 
in the computer industry a lot of age discrimination. You all should know 
that it is illegal. It is also immoral, and is no different from racism, or 
sexism, or any other method of turning people down for any reason other than 
their abilities. Older people need work too! What would you all think if 
Keas said they're looking for people who are "white-ish"? Companies get away 
with it because it is very hard to prove in court. Is this company putting 
such a policy in writing? Does their statement of what they're looking for 
mean that, for example, since I'm not a GenX, I have no chance whatsoever of 
being hired there, regardless of my programming ability?

_______________________________________________
Baypiggies mailing list
Baypiggies at python.org
To change your subscription options or unsubscribe:
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies

From elan.martinez at gmail.com  Sat Jun  6 19:01:21 2009
From: elan.martinez at gmail.com (elan.martinez at gmail.com)
Date: Sat, 6 Jun 2009 17:01:21 +0000
Subject: [Baypiggies] Finding work - Company: Keas (S.F.)
In-Reply-To: <CBA5D53A9AFF49AFA7E24A09922E2E6A@orion>
References: <mailman.4550.1244270203.8014.baypiggies@python.org><CBA5D53A9AFF49AFA7E24A09922E2E6A@orion>
Message-ID: <1675496604-1244307688-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-613736877-@bxe1283.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>

Sorry, last comment.... but just so you are clear, I was describing the environment not the requirements.  Perhaps there is a better way of saying that there are people there of all ages and colors with the common thread being exuberant spirit, etc., and sorry if my descriptive skills weren't adequate but I  think you misread what I wrote.

Cheers,
E.


Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T

-----Original Message-----
From: "Roderick Llewellyn" <roderick at sanfransystems.com>

Date: Sat, 6 Jun 2009 08:33:27 
To: <baypiggies at python.org>
Subject: [Baypiggies] Finding work - Company: Keas (S.F.)


I'm curious what the part of the post that says that Keas is looking for 
people who are "young-ish"/or young at heart means. I've already encountered 
in the computer industry a lot of age discrimination. You all should know 
that it is illegal. It is also immoral, and is no different from racism, or 
sexism, or any other method of turning people down for any reason other than 
their abilities. Older people need work too! What would you all think if 
Keas said they're looking for people who are "white-ish"? Companies get away 
with it because it is very hard to prove in court. Is this company putting 
such a policy in writing? Does their statement of what they're looking for 
mean that, for example, since I'm not a GenX, I have no chance whatsoever of 
being hired there, regardless of my programming ability?

_______________________________________________
Baypiggies mailing list
Baypiggies at python.org
To change your subscription options or unsubscribe:
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies

From glen at glenjarvis.com  Sat Jun  6 19:10:13 2009
From: glen at glenjarvis.com (Glen Jarvis)
Date: Sat, 6 Jun 2009 10:10:13 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] Join us for Spamalot :)
Message-ID: <68E194B6-1F04-4EE7-B128-2EF134FD35BF@glenjarvis.com>

WHO:  You
WHAT: SPAM-A-LOT
WHEN: Saturday, June 27 at 2:00 p.m. (AFTER OUR NEXT BAYPIGGIES  
MEETING/GET TICKETS NOW)
WHERE: Golden Gate Theatre (Golden Gate/Market/6th Street)
WHY: Because it's a Python specific educational experience :)

Ticket Prices:



Fri & Sat eves at 8pm
Sat & Sun mats at 2pm
Orchestra/Loge	$99.00
Mezzanine	$99.00
Balcony	$50.00

Several have expressed concern about price. Although it can be  
extended to a limited few, I may have some financial assistance (for  
those who could only afford the weekday prices). Please ask me of list.

Please RSVP to Glen (OFF LIST so we don't SPAM-a-LOT).

I still don't have any Captioning Accessibility information.

All the best,


Glen
--
glen at glenjarvis.com

"You must be the change you wish to see in the world." -M. Gandhi
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From jjinux at gmail.com  Sat Jun  6 20:04:54 2009
From: jjinux at gmail.com (Shannon -jj Behrens)
Date: Sat, 6 Jun 2009 11:04:54 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] Finding work - Company: Keas (S.F.)
In-Reply-To: <1675496604-1244307688-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-613736877-@bxe1283.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
References: <mailman.4550.1244270203.8014.baypiggies@python.org>
	<CBA5D53A9AFF49AFA7E24A09922E2E6A@orion>
	<1675496604-1244307688-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-613736877-@bxe1283.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
Message-ID: <c41f67b90906061104g4d5d065ie3b5fdf203d9b41e@mail.gmail.com>

To be clear, any company would be *lucky* to find an ol' timer like
Roderick.  Some of the older members in our group such as Roderick,
Mike Cheponis, Alex, and many of the others helped *define* the
computer industry.  The actually *did* the stuff that I only read
about.

Actually, me and Mike have a disagreement on this subject.  Mike said,
"I'll be too old to code when I can no longer type C-x C-s."  I
retorted, "I'll be too old when I can no longer type :w".  My guess is
that I'll be coding longer than Mike since ":w" is much easier to type
;)

-jj

On Sat, Jun 6, 2009 at 10:01 AM,  <elan.martinez at gmail.com> wrote:
> Sorry, last comment.... but just so you are clear, I was describing the environment not the requirements. ?Perhaps there is a better way of saying that there are people there of all ages and colors with the common thread being exuberant spirit, etc., and sorry if my descriptive skills weren't adequate but I ?think you misread what I wrote.
>
> Cheers,
> E.
>
>
> Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: "Roderick Llewellyn" <roderick at sanfransystems.com>
>
> Date: Sat, 6 Jun 2009 08:33:27
> To: <baypiggies at python.org>
> Subject: [Baypiggies] Finding work - Company: Keas (S.F.)
>
>
> I'm curious what the part of the post that says that Keas is looking for
> people who are "young-ish"/or young at heart means. I've already encountered
> in the computer industry a lot of age discrimination. You all should know
> that it is illegal. It is also immoral, and is no different from racism, or
> sexism, or any other method of turning people down for any reason other than
> their abilities. Older people need work too! What would you all think if
> Keas said they're looking for people who are "white-ish"? Companies get away
> with it because it is very hard to prove in court. Is this company putting
> such a policy in writing? Does their statement of what they're looking for
> mean that, for example, since I'm not a GenX, I have no chance whatsoever of
> being hired there, regardless of my programming ability?
>
> _______________________________________________
> Baypiggies mailing list
> Baypiggies at python.org
> To change your subscription options or unsubscribe:
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies
> _______________________________________________
> Baypiggies mailing list
> Baypiggies at python.org
> To change your subscription options or unsubscribe:
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies
>



-- 
In this life we cannot do great things. We can only do small things
with great love. -- Mother Teresa
http://jjinux.blogspot.com/

From jjinux at gmail.com  Sat Jun  6 20:09:00 2009
From: jjinux at gmail.com (Shannon -jj Behrens)
Date: Sat, 6 Jun 2009 11:09:00 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] RPyc anyone?
In-Reply-To: <8249c4ac0906052343h6becf251ke564ca3cf786022c@mail.gmail.com>
References: <8249c4ac0906052343h6becf251ke564ca3cf786022c@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <c41f67b90906061109l3822d022yd51859aa2db9f819@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Jun 5, 2009 at 11:43 PM, Tony Cappellini <cappy2112 at gmail.com> wrote:
> Has anyone here used RPyc?
> http://rpyc.wikidot.com/

No, but you should also look at:

http://pyro.sourceforge.net/
http://developers.facebook.com/thrift/

Best Regards,
-jj

-- 
In this life we cannot do great things. We can only do small things
with great love. -- Mother Teresa
http://jjinux.blogspot.com/

From dpb at donbennett.org  Sat Jun  6 20:57:59 2009
From: dpb at donbennett.org (Don Bennett)
Date: Sat, 06 Jun 2009 11:57:59 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] Finding work - Company: Keas (S.F.) [ BULKTAG
 PYTHONTAG ]
In-Reply-To: <c41f67b90906061104g4d5d065ie3b5fdf203d9b41e@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.4550.1244270203.8014.baypiggies@python.org>
	<CBA5D53A9AFF49AFA7E24A09922E2E6A@orion>
	<1675496604-1244307688-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-613736877-@bxe1283.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
	<c41f67b90906061104g4d5d065ie3b5fdf203d9b41e@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4A2ABC37.7070108@donbennett.org>

I would argue that C-x C-s is easier to type, esp. for folks with 
over-sized left pinkies from years of using the control key. :-)

Don

Shannon -jj Behrens wrote:
> To be clear, any company would be *lucky* to find an ol' timer like
> Roderick.  Some of the older members in our group such as Roderick,
> Mike Cheponis, Alex, and many of the others helped *define* the
> computer industry.  The actually *did* the stuff that I only read
> about.
>
> Actually, me and Mike have a disagreement on this subject.  Mike said,
> "I'll be too old to code when I can no longer type C-x C-s."  I
> retorted, "I'll be too old when I can no longer type :w".  My guess is
> that I'll be coding longer than Mike since ":w" is much easier to type
> ;)
>
> -jj
>
> On Sat, Jun 6, 2009 at 10:01 AM,  <elan.martinez at gmail.com> wrote:
>   
>> Sorry, last comment.... but just so you are clear, I was describing the environment not the requirements.  Perhaps there is a better way of saying that there are people there of all ages and colors with the common thread being exuberant spirit, etc., and sorry if my descriptive skills weren't adequate but I  think you misread what I wrote.
>>
>> Cheers,
>> E.
>>
>>
>> Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: "Roderick Llewellyn" <roderick at sanfransystems.com>
>>
>> Date: Sat, 6 Jun 2009 08:33:27
>> To: <baypiggies at python.org>
>> Subject: [Baypiggies] Finding work - Company: Keas (S.F.)
>>
>>
>> I'm curious what the part of the post that says that Keas is looking for
>> people who are "young-ish"/or young at heart means. I've already encountered
>> in the computer industry a lot of age discrimination. You all should know
>> that it is illegal. It is also immoral, and is no different from racism, or
>> sexism, or any other method of turning people down for any reason other than
>> their abilities. Older people need work too! What would you all think if
>> Keas said they're looking for people who are "white-ish"? Companies get away
>> with it because it is very hard to prove in court. Is this company putting
>> such a policy in writing? Does their statement of what they're looking for
>> mean that, for example, since I'm not a GenX, I have no chance whatsoever of
>> being hired there, regardless of my programming ability?
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Baypiggies mailing list
>> Baypiggies at python.org
>> To change your subscription options or unsubscribe:
>> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies
>> _______________________________________________
>> Baypiggies mailing list
>> Baypiggies at python.org
>> To change your subscription options or unsubscribe:
>> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies
>>
>>     
>
>
>
>   

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From elan.martinez at gmail.com  Sat Jun  6 21:14:02 2009
From: elan.martinez at gmail.com (elan.martinez at gmail.com)
Date: Sat, 6 Jun 2009 19:14:02 +0000
Subject: [Baypiggies] Finding work - Company: Keas (S.F.)
Message-ID: <1812476311-1244315650-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-768839719-@bxe1283.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>

I don't doubt it jj! (Et al.) I hope the tone of my replies weren't misread....again!!!;-).  I'm right there with you all, some of those pioneering "old-timers" some with three letter abbreviated names were my pals too.  Having worked on several sides of the table, I know all to well of Rodericks complaints.  Its hasn't happened yet with me, knock on wood, but I'm always on alert and ready to "educate" hiring managers if necessary.  As we all know talent comes in all shapes, sizes and in diminishing numbers at that, and so those who can't recognize this and don't evaluate with a blank slate and open mind are doomed! :-). 

Good weekends to you all!
.   
E.


------Original Message------
From: Shannon -jj Behrens
To: Elan Martinez
Cc: Roderick Llewellyn
Cc: baypiggies at python.org
Sent: Jun 6, 2009 11:04
Subject: Re: [Baypiggies] Finding work - Company: Keas (S.F.)

To be clear, any company would be *lucky* to find an ol' timer like
Roderick.  Some of the older members in our group such as Roderick,
Mike Cheponis, Alex, and many of the others helped *define* the
computer industry.  The actually *did* the stuff that I only read
about.

Actually, me and Mike have a disagreement on this subject.  Mike said,
"I'll be too old to code when I can no longer type C-x C-s."  I
retorted, "I'll be too old when I can no longer type :w".  My guess is
that I'll be coding longer than Mike since ":w" is much easier to type
;)

-jj

On Sat, Jun 6, 2009 at 10:01 AM,  <elan.martinez at gmail.com> wrote:
> Sorry, last comment.... but just so you are clear, I was describing the environment not the requirements. ?Perhaps there is a better way of saying that there are people there of all ages and colors with the common thread being exuberant spirit, etc., and sorry if my descriptive skills weren't adequate but I ?think you misread what I wrote.
>
> Cheers,
> E.
>
>
> Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: "Roderick Llewellyn" <roderick at sanfransystems.com>
>
> Date: Sat, 6 Jun 2009 08:33:27
> To: <baypiggies at python.org>
> Subject: [Baypiggies] Finding work - Company: Keas (S.F.)
>
>
> I'm curious what the part of the post that says that Keas is looking for
> people who are "young-ish"/or young at heart means. I've already encountered
> in the computer industry a lot of age discrimination. You all should know
> that it is illegal. It is also immoral, and is no different from racism, or
> sexism, or any other method of turning people down for any reason other than
> their abilities. Older people need work too! What would you all think if
> Keas said they're looking for people who are "white-ish"? Companies get away
> with it because it is very hard to prove in court. Is this company putting
> such a policy in writing? Does their statement of what they're looking for
> mean that, for example, since I'm not a GenX, I have no chance whatsoever of
> being hired there, regardless of my programming ability?
>
>_______________________________________________
> Baypiggies mailing list
> Baypiggies at python.org
> To change your subscription options or unsubscribe:
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies
>_______________________________________________
> Baypiggies mailing list
> Baypiggies at python.org
> To change your subscription options or unsubscribe:
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies
>



-- 
In this life we cannot do great things. We can only do small things
with great love. -- Mother Teresa
http://jjinux.blogspot.com/


Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T

From jim at well.com  Sat Jun  6 21:15:20 2009
From: jim at well.com (jim)
Date: Sat, 06 Jun 2009 12:15:20 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] Finding work - Company: Keas (S.F.) [
	BULKTAG	PYTHONTAG ]
In-Reply-To: <4A2ABC37.7070108@donbennett.org>
References: <mailman.4550.1244270203.8014.baypiggies@python.org>
	<CBA5D53A9AFF49AFA7E24A09922E2E6A@orion>
	<1675496604-1244307688-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-613736877-@bxe1283.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
	<c41f67b90906061104g4d5d065ie3b5fdf203d9b41e@mail.gmail.com>
	<4A2ABC37.7070108@donbennett.org>
Message-ID: <1244315720.6311.76.camel@jim-laptop>


i think :w is easier than C-x X-hh

bb kkkkkkkk

<BAD_WORD>! 
:wq


On Sat, 2009-06-06 at 11:57 -0700, Don Bennett wrote:
> I would argue that C-x C-s is easier to type, esp. for folks with
> over-sized left pinkies from years of using the control key. :-)
> 
> Don
> 
> Shannon -jj Behrens wrote: 
> > To be clear, any company would be *lucky* to find an ol' timer like
> > Roderick.  Some of the older members in our group such as Roderick,
> > Mike Cheponis, Alex, and many of the others helped *define* the
> > computer industry.  The actually *did* the stuff that I only read
> > about.
> > 
> > Actually, me and Mike have a disagreement on this subject.  Mike said,
> > "I'll be too old to code when I can no longer type C-x C-s."  I
> > retorted, "I'll be too old when I can no longer type :w".  My guess is
> > that I'll be coding longer than Mike since ":w" is much easier to type
> > ;)
> > 
> > -jj
> > 
> > On Sat, Jun 6, 2009 at 10:01 AM,  <elan.martinez at gmail.com> wrote:
> >   
> > > Sorry, last comment.... but just so you are clear, I was describing the environment not the requirements.  Perhaps there is a better way of saying that there are people there of all ages and colors with the common thread being exuberant spirit, etc., and sorry if my descriptive skills weren't adequate but I  think you misread what I wrote.
> > > 
> > > Cheers,
> > > E.
> > > 
> > > 
> > > Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T
> > > 
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: "Roderick Llewellyn" <roderick at sanfransystems.com>
> > > 
> > > Date: Sat, 6 Jun 2009 08:33:27
> > > To: <baypiggies at python.org>
> > > Subject: [Baypiggies] Finding work - Company: Keas (S.F.)
> > > 
> > > 
> > > I'm curious what the part of the post that says that Keas is looking for
> > > people who are "young-ish"/or young at heart means. I've already encountered
> > > in the computer industry a lot of age discrimination. You all should know
> > > that it is illegal. It is also immoral, and is no different from racism, or
> > > sexism, or any other method of turning people down for any reason other than
> > > their abilities. Older people need work too! What would you all think if
> > > Keas said they're looking for people who are "white-ish"? Companies get away
> > > with it because it is very hard to prove in court. Is this company putting
> > > such a policy in writing? Does their statement of what they're looking for
> > > mean that, for example, since I'm not a GenX, I have no chance whatsoever of
> > > being hired there, regardless of my programming ability?
> > > 
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Baypiggies mailing list
> > > Baypiggies at python.org
> > > To change your subscription options or unsubscribe:
> > > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Baypiggies mailing list
> > > Baypiggies at python.org
> > > To change your subscription options or unsubscribe:
> > > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies
> > > 
> > >     
> > 
> > 
> > 
> >   
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Baypiggies mailing list
> Baypiggies at python.org
> To change your subscription options or unsubscribe:
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies


From andrew at atoulou.se  Sat Jun  6 22:49:52 2009
From: andrew at atoulou.se (Andrew Akira Toulouse)
Date: Sat, 6 Jun 2009 13:49:52 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] RPyc anyone?
In-Reply-To: <c41f67b90906061109l3822d022yd51859aa2db9f819@mail.gmail.com>
References: <8249c4ac0906052343h6becf251ke564ca3cf786022c@mail.gmail.com>
	<c41f67b90906061109l3822d022yd51859aa2db9f819@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <99BB303C-E746-4E6B-861B-430FB7061FD1@atoulou.se>

I definitely second Thrift - it's pretty cool. Then again, I'm  
interning at Facebook so that might just be me having drunk the Kool- 
Aid. ;)

--Andy

On Jun 6, 2009, at 11:09 AM, Shannon -jj Behrens wrote:

> On Fri, Jun 5, 2009 at 11:43 PM, Tony Cappellini  
> <cappy2112 at gmail.com> wrote:
>> Has anyone here used RPyc?
>> http://rpyc.wikidot.com/
>
> No, but you should also look at:
>
> http://pyro.sourceforge.net/
> http://developers.facebook.com/thrift/
>
> Best Regards,
> -jj
>
> -- 
> In this life we cannot do great things. We can only do small things
> with great love. -- Mother Teresa
> http://jjinux.blogspot.com/
> _______________________________________________
> Baypiggies mailing list
> Baypiggies at python.org
> To change your subscription options or unsubscribe:
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies


From roderick at sanfransystems.com  Sat Jun  6 23:44:57 2009
From: roderick at sanfransystems.com (Roderick Llewellyn)
Date: Sat, 6 Jun 2009 14:44:57 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] discrimination etc
Message-ID: <39DA26A5D02C468F94EAF34E6CCCA820@orion>

Thanks everyone for your warm replies. Perhaps I exaggerated the case with regard to the Keas posting and may have over-reacted. For that I apologize. Now if anybody knows of a good San Francisco position lol .....
I'm trying to modernize my skills, like learning Python, Pylons, MySQL, better my Linux skills, Apache, etc. I've only been studying Python since Apr 24 (that's when I downloaded it anyway) but have quite a bit of working code now, several thousand lines for sure. I've made a few things since that date (all related to the FIX - Financial Information Exchange protocol - see http://www.fixprotocol.org for more about it - in brief, it's an industry standard for communicating securities exchange messages, such as orders, fills, etc - it's much hairier than you might at first think - for example, an order message has over 100 possible fields), all the following stuff written in Python unless otherwise stated:
1. I read in a formal XML based description of the different versions ("dialects") of the protocol, the XML files are those published on the official site.
2. I can parse a FIX message in "wire" format into data structures, i.e., Python classes, guided by the dialect definitions.
3. I can generate a FIX message similarly.
4. I have an HTML generator which uses the dialect defs to create a form for every message type (there are dozens) [but the generation is automated] - you can then enter in values for any or all fields. Fields are partially validated. An interesting twist is that certain fields belong to "repeating groups" which can, well, repeat ... and of course some groups are nested. Their semantics is tricky. My HTML app allows you to insert, delete repeats, move them or exchange them for other repeat instances. The app runs under Apache, using CGI at the moment. This was my first use of Apache.
5. I have a PyTrader simulated trading application. This application lets you enter in a simple buy or sell order thru a command line, for example, "B 100 IBM 23.45" means "buy 100 shares of IBM common stock at a price of $23.45". It then creates the appropriate order message, and sends it to a running instance of a commercial FixEngine (a FixEngine is an application server which is specialized around dealing with the hairy FIX communications protocol - FIX does not assume TCP/IP and does not assume reliable delivery... I was one of the authors of the FIX engine, which is in Java - sockets are used to communicate with it)... meanwhile the Engine sends the order to another Engine (which represents the Broker), which sends it to a Broker simulator app (a pre-existing Java app which comes as a sample with the FixEngine), which sends back 2 fills ("ExecutionReports"), which come back down the pipe to the trader simulator. The trader side logs everything in MySQL, the orders it sent and the fills received. This was my first use of MySQL. The app also allows simple retrievals, for example, typing at its command prompt "C ORDER0010" will retrieve the "order chain" (orders and fills) for those who order ID = 'ORDER0010'.
6. By way of learning Pylons, I am converting the HTML app to use it. I got Pylons to run under Eclipse - I can use Eclipse debugger to set breakpoints in my Python code running under the Pylons web server ("paster")!!!
That's been my last 1.5 months... while still playing a fair amount of World of Warcraft....
Resume provided upon request!!!

It was great to meet the various Pyggies. I will be coming to all meetings I can, you're a great group! I hope to catch Spamalot too. - Rod Llewellyn
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From glaw at slide.com  Sun Jun  7 02:13:50 2009
From: glaw at slide.com (Grace Law)
Date: Sat, 6 Jun 2009 17:13:50 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] Pylons/Web-focused meet ups in Bay Area ?
Message-ID: <5A66A52A-BC72-4297-BD29-CA263FEE27D3@slide.com>

Niall and all

You may want check out http://www.meetup.com/sfpython , and http:// 
www.meetup.com/The-San-Francisco-Django-Meetup-Group/

I help organize speakers for the SFpython meetup.   We usually meet  
on the 2nd Wed of the month, starting at 6:30p, at the Slide office  
in SOMA San Francisco.

So for we have had talks such as Pylons (by Ben Bangert) and Twisted  
(by David Reid), we also do hack-a-thon from time to time.

On June 10 (next Wed), we will be having a talk on using Python on  
Non-relational databases.  http://www.meetup.com/sfpython/calendar/ 
10561903/  Come check us out.

If you'd like to present at SFpython meetup, please let me know.   I  
am still trying to line up a TurboGears talk. ;-)  If you'd like to  
present at the Django meetup, contact Eric at floguy at gmail.com.

IMHO - we should limit the number of python meetups.  We already have  
Baypiggies in the Silicon Valley and 2 in San Francisco.

Best,

Grace Law
650-823-7236 cell

--- On Thu, 6/4/09, Niall O'Higgins <niallo at unworkable.org> wrote:


> From: Niall O'Higgins <niallo at unworkable.org>
> Subject: [Baypiggies] Pylons/Web-focused meet ups in Bay Area ?
> To: baypiggies at python.org
> Date: Thursday, June 4, 2009, 2:41 PM
> Hi all,
>
> Just wondering if there are any existing meet-ups focused
> on
> Python-based Web technologies, e.g.
> WSGI/Pylons/Django/TurboGears in
> the Bay Area.
>
> Ideally this would be a forum for people to present their
> work,
> share knowledge and collaborate.
>
> If there aren't any already, I would be interested in
> starting such a
> group.
>
> Thanks!
>
> -- 
> Niall O'Higgins
> http://niallohiggins.com
>

From aleax at google.com  Sun Jun  7 05:59:35 2009
From: aleax at google.com (Alex Martelli)
Date: Sat, 6 Jun 2009 20:59:35 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] Finding work - Company: Keas (S.F.)
In-Reply-To: <c41f67b90906061104g4d5d065ie3b5fdf203d9b41e@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.4550.1244270203.8014.baypiggies@python.org>
	<CBA5D53A9AFF49AFA7E24A09922E2E6A@orion>
	<1675496604-1244307688-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-613736877-@bxe1283.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
	<c41f67b90906061104g4d5d065ie3b5fdf203d9b41e@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <55dc209b0906062059ld61d4f3j8380fad39f85a70a@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Jun 6, 2009 at 11:04 AM, Shannon -jj Behrens<jjinux at gmail.com> wrote:
> To be clear, any company would be *lucky* to find an ol' timer like
> Roderick. ?Some of the older members in our group such as Roderick,
> Mike Cheponis, Alex, and many of the others helped *define* the
> computer industry. ?The actually *did* the stuff that I only read
> about.

Thanks jj for including me in the list!-)  IANAL, but I believe the
"young at heart" quip probably shields the company from legal
liability (though I'd hate to be the lawyer arguing that in front of a
jury...).  Otherwise, yes, age (like veteran status, family status,
ethnic origin, etc) falls among the categories the US forbids from
consideration in hiring.

Let me register my personal objection to that idea (as a citizen of a
nation and EU which has somewhat different criteria): if I was
building a startup with an application with a given target audience,
I'd be seriously pissed to be legally forbidden from looking for
developers, user experience experts, QA folks, etc, which match the
audience -- it should be my decision, not the govt's, whether (say) an
app for social networking among gays and lesbians who are veterans of
foreign wars is better off having some developers &c who ARE gay or
lesbian veterans of foreign wars, or not. Legally, in the US, I can
choose to preferentially hire gays or lesbians for those roles, but I
officially HAVE to be blind about veteran status. Which makes no sense
to me (but then I'm not a US citizen).

I had to ring a similar alarm bell last week at the "Sum of Google"
executive summit on diversity at my employer -- somebody (reasonably!)
mentioned that there are more dimensions to diversity than you'd
usually think of, e.g., the fact that he was a muslim. I had to speak
up and remind everybody that such facts are legally forbidden for
hiring considerations -- you can't decide muslims are
under-represented, nor that old people are under-represented, nor that
bachelors are, and institute an affirmative action policy to get a
more diverse workforce: the law forbids that. Gender, you may
consider; race, ditto; there are Supreme Court precedents saying so
(the mother of our VP J. Rosenberg was on the legal team that won that
Supreme Court decision for the Santa Clara county transportation dept,
so we heard all about it;-). Religion, family status, age, veteran
status, nope: you can't choose to be diverse in THOSE ways, the law
forbids it.

The INTENT of those laws is to bar discrimination AGAINST some kinds
of vulnerable groups -- but the letter, and judicial precedents, also
happens to bar affirmative action FOR them.

So, while sad to inject a negative note into an otherwise wonderfully
positive open debate, I had to remind my fellow googlers to get a
refresher of "hiring do's and don'ts" courses from our excellent HR
and Legal depts -- the laws are intricate and vary by country and by
year (and, sometimes it seems, by phase of the moon), but we STILL
have to respect them -- to the letter, even when (as I believe is
often the case here) this might make us less diverse and thereby break
the laws' overall guiding spirit:-(.

BTW, my country (Italy) has long been fighting in the courts against
my Community (the European Union) about age and gender discrimination
-- the EU forbids it, Italy thinks that's crazy and that it's
perfectly reasonable, say, to ask for a woman (NOT a man) to be the
massage therapist for a women's sports team, or to ask for somebody
55+ (NOT a 20-something individual) to be the entertainment director
for a senior citizens' residential resort, etc, etc -- i.e. that
gender discrimination in hiring is OK if it can be shown to relate to
the specifics of a job (so a nun convent looking for more nuns COULD
legally mandate them to be women, and a friar convent looking for more
friars COULD legally mandate them to be men -- this would currently be
illegal according to the letter of the EU directives...).  I'm not
going to mention my personal ideas on that one fight...


Alex

From charles.merriam at gmail.com  Sun Jun  7 06:48:18 2009
From: charles.merriam at gmail.com (Charles Merriam)
Date: Sat, 6 Jun 2009 21:48:18 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] Finding work - Company: Keas (S.F.)
In-Reply-To: <55dc209b0906062059ld61d4f3j8380fad39f85a70a@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.4550.1244270203.8014.baypiggies@python.org>
	<CBA5D53A9AFF49AFA7E24A09922E2E6A@orion>
	<1675496604-1244307688-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-613736877-@bxe1283.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
	<c41f67b90906061104g4d5d065ie3b5fdf203d9b41e@mail.gmail.com>
	<55dc209b0906062059ld61d4f3j8380fad39f85a70a@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <b8c6f6c40906062148s4a7765cbh65b2847808c62cb6@mail.gmail.com>

We go far from the realms of Python.  I have found that code words
like "young at heart" tend to mean "more interested in coding than
meetings", "works more than forty hours per week", or "interested in
new technologies".

Charles

From aleax at google.com  Sun Jun  7 07:43:00 2009
From: aleax at google.com (Alex Martelli)
Date: Sat, 6 Jun 2009 22:43:00 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] Finding work - Company: Keas (S.F.)
In-Reply-To: <b8c6f6c40906062148s4a7765cbh65b2847808c62cb6@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.4550.1244270203.8014.baypiggies@python.org>
	<CBA5D53A9AFF49AFA7E24A09922E2E6A@orion>
	<1675496604-1244307688-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-613736877-@bxe1283.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
	<c41f67b90906061104g4d5d065ie3b5fdf203d9b41e@mail.gmail.com>
	<55dc209b0906062059ld61d4f3j8380fad39f85a70a@mail.gmail.com>
	<b8c6f6c40906062148s4a7765cbh65b2847808c62cb6@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <55dc209b0906062243u3ee74c9ds367d8103293c3ac7@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Jun 6, 2009 at 9:48 PM, Charles
Merriam<charles.merriam at gmail.com> wrote:
> We go far from the realms of Python. ?I have found that code words
> like "young at heart" tend to mean "more interested in coding than
> meetings", "works more than forty hours per week", or "interested in
> new technologies".

Sorry Charles, you're right about this drifting offtopic. However my
hours-per-week attitude, which I have spoken about at many Python
conferences, is "aim for 40, settle for 50, 60 is right out" == I do
match the other two items in your definition of "young at heart"
tho;-).

Alex

From aahz at pythoncraft.com  Mon Jun  8 04:32:24 2009
From: aahz at pythoncraft.com (Aahz)
Date: Sun, 7 Jun 2009 19:32:24 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] Finding work - Company: Keas (S.F.)
In-Reply-To: <CBA5D53A9AFF49AFA7E24A09922E2E6A@orion>
References: <mailman.4550.1244270203.8014.baypiggies@python.org>
	<CBA5D53A9AFF49AFA7E24A09922E2E6A@orion>
Message-ID: <20090608023223.GA21596@panix.com>

On Sat, Jun 06, 2009, Roderick Llewellyn wrote:
>
> I'm curious what the part of the post that says that Keas is looking for  
> people who are "young-ish"/or young at heart means. I've already 
> encountered in the computer industry a lot of age discrimination. You all 
> should know that it is illegal. It is also immoral, and is no different 
> from racism, or sexism, or any other method of turning people down for 
> any reason other than their abilities. Older people need work too! 

Going off on a little bit of a tangent, it's my perception that because
Python is still largely self-selected, the Python community overall skews
older than other parts of the computer industry.  Although the bias
toward young people does exist in the computer industry, I've seen little
evidence of it in hiring for Python jobs.
-- 
Aahz (aahz at pythoncraft.com)           <*>         http://www.pythoncraft.com/

"If you don't know what your program is supposed to do, you'd better not
start writing it."  --Dijkstra

From aahz at pythoncraft.com  Mon Jun  8 04:46:46 2009
From: aahz at pythoncraft.com (Aahz)
Date: Sun, 7 Jun 2009 19:46:46 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] Free OSCON registration
Message-ID: <20090608024646.GA26924@panix.com>

Would you like to attend OSCON?  Would you like to help evangelize
Python?  If you answered yes to both questions, I'd love to hear from
you!  I'm setting up a Python booth in the OSCON expo hall, and I get a
free registration to hand out (I already have my own).

I'm running this as a silent auction, with a minimum bid of four hours
volunteering to help run the booth.  I'm restricting this to a maximum of
ten hours so that the winner will have time to attend sessions
(unfortunately, this does not include tutorials).  In case of a tie, the
first person responding wins.

DEADLINE: midnight Friday 6/12

The OSCON expo hall will be open
Weds July 22 10am-4:30pm and 6-7pm (reception)
Thurs July 23 10am-5pm

For more information, see
http://en.oreilly.com/oscon2009
-- 
Aahz (aahz at pythoncraft.com)           <*>         http://www.pythoncraft.com/

"If you don't know what your program is supposed to do, you'd better not
start writing it."  --Dijkstra

From andrew at atoulou.se  Mon Jun  8 05:01:40 2009
From: andrew at atoulou.se (Andrew Akira Toulouse)
Date: Sun, 7 Jun 2009 20:01:40 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] Finding work - Company: Keas (S.F.)
In-Reply-To: <20090608023223.GA21596@panix.com>
References: <mailman.4550.1244270203.8014.baypiggies@python.org>
	<CBA5D53A9AFF49AFA7E24A09922E2E6A@orion>
	<20090608023223.GA21596@panix.com>
Message-ID: <39391B56-E7B6-4AD1-81F8-B6DC4C21E0EA@atoulou.se>

Young people are electing to learn Python, too. It's fairly popular  
among the savvy programmers I know, and even required for some classes  
(i.e. CS188 at Berkeley). What reasons could be responsible for the  
older age skew you suggest?

--Andy

On Jun 7, 2009, at 7:32 PM, Aahz wrote:

> On Sat, Jun 06, 2009, Roderick Llewellyn wrote:
>>
>> I'm curious what the part of the post that says that Keas is  
>> looking for
>> people who are "young-ish"/or young at heart means. I've already
>> encountered in the computer industry a lot of age discrimination.  
>> You all
>> should know that it is illegal. It is also immoral, and is no  
>> different
>> from racism, or sexism, or any other method of turning people down  
>> for
>> any reason other than their abilities. Older people need work too!
>
> Going off on a little bit of a tangent, it's my perception that  
> because
> Python is still largely self-selected, the Python community overall  
> skews
> older than other parts of the computer industry.  Although the bias
> toward young people does exist in the computer industry, I've seen  
> little
> evidence of it in hiring for Python jobs.
> -- 
> Aahz (aahz at pythoncraft.com)           <*>         http://www.pythoncraft.com/
>
> "If you don't know what your program is supposed to do, you'd better  
> not
> start writing it."  --Dijkstra
> _______________________________________________
> Baypiggies mailing list
> Baypiggies at python.org
> To change your subscription options or unsubscribe:
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies


From aahz at pythoncraft.com  Mon Jun  8 06:08:44 2009
From: aahz at pythoncraft.com (Aahz)
Date: Sun, 7 Jun 2009 21:08:44 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] Newbie Nugget?
Message-ID: <20090608040844.GA11630@panix.com>

Anyone want to do a newbie nugget Thurs 6/25?
-- 
Aahz (aahz at pythoncraft.com)           <*>         http://www.pythoncraft.com/

"If you don't know what your program is supposed to do, you'd better not
start writing it."  --Dijkstra

From jjinux at gmail.com  Mon Jun  8 08:17:04 2009
From: jjinux at gmail.com (Shannon -jj Behrens)
Date: Sun, 7 Jun 2009 23:17:04 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] Newbie Nugget?
In-Reply-To: <20090608040844.GA11630@panix.com>
References: <20090608040844.GA11630@panix.com>
Message-ID: <c41f67b90906072317h123e46ebg870f4350c214d976@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Jun 7, 2009 at 9:08 PM, Aahz <aahz at pythoncraft.com> wrote:
> Anyone want to do a newbie nugget Thurs 6/25?

Matt Good mentioned that he wanted to do one.  Matt?

-jj

-- 
In this life we cannot do great things. We can only do small things
with great love. -- Mother Teresa
http://jjinux.blogspot.com/

From jjinux at gmail.com  Mon Jun  8 08:28:16 2009
From: jjinux at gmail.com (Shannon -jj Behrens)
Date: Sun, 7 Jun 2009 23:28:16 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] Pylons/Web-focused meet ups in Bay Area ?
In-Reply-To: <5A66A52A-BC72-4297-BD29-CA263FEE27D3@slide.com>
References: <5A66A52A-BC72-4297-BD29-CA263FEE27D3@slide.com>
Message-ID: <c41f67b90906072328u6c46f72fi417fb54f5425d433@mail.gmail.com>

> IMHO - we should limit the number of python meetups. ?We already have
> Baypiggies in the Silicon Valley and 2 in San Francisco.

I think there are three in San Francisco.  SF Python Meetup, the one
about writing video games in Python (which sounds like a fun group),
and the Django one.

-jj

-- 
In this life we cannot do great things. We can only do small things
with great love. -- Mother Teresa
http://jjinux.blogspot.com/

From glaw at slide.com  Mon Jun  8 09:19:52 2009
From: glaw at slide.com (Grace Law)
Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2009 00:19:52 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] Pylons/Web-focused meet ups in Bay Area ?
In-Reply-To: <c41f67b90906072328u6c46f72fi417fb54f5425d433@mail.gmail.com>
References: <5A66A52A-BC72-4297-BD29-CA263FEE27D3@slide.com>
	<c41f67b90906072328u6c46f72fi417fb54f5425d433@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <DB3090D7-BBA0-4368-B916-911487A29CDD@slide.com>


On Jun 7, 2009, at 11:28 PM, Shannon -jj Behrens wrote:

>> IMHO - we should limit the number of python meetups.  We already have
>> Baypiggies in the Silicon Valley and 2 in San Francisco.
>
> I think there are three in San Francisco.  SF Python Meetup, the one
> about writing video games in Python (which sounds like a fun group),
> and the Django one.

I think you are referring to PyGameSF -

http://www.pygamesf.org/?page_id=2

According to their description, It seems like it focuses more on  
multimedia programming than python itself.

Grace

>
> -jj
>
> -- 
> In this life we cannot do great things. We can only do small things
> with great love. -- Mother Teresa
> http://jjinux.blogspot.com/


From python at dylanreinhardt.com  Mon Jun  8 15:40:26 2009
From: python at dylanreinhardt.com (Dylan Reinhardt)
Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2009 06:40:26 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] Finding work - Company: Keas (S.F.)
In-Reply-To: <20090608023223.GA21596@panix.com>
References: <mailman.4550.1244270203.8014.baypiggies@python.org>
	<CBA5D53A9AFF49AFA7E24A09922E2E6A@orion>
	<20090608023223.GA21596@panix.com>
Message-ID: <4c645a720906080640w626728f6g2c678f80c453ff22@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Jun 7, 2009 at 7:32 PM, Aahz <aahz at pythoncraft.com> wrote:

> Going off on a little bit of a tangent, it's my perception that because
> Python is still largely self-selected, the Python community overall skews
> older than other parts of the computer industry.  Although the bias
> toward young people does exist in the computer industry, I've seen little
> evidence of it in hiring for Python jobs.



That's not my sense of Python demographics at all.  Or of hiring bias.

People who attend meetings *also* represent a largely self-selected group.
There may be something about the meeting night, time, or location that
causes one group to show up and another not to make it.  I've wanted to come
to a meeting of this group for years and never seem to make it happen.

Your evidence for young people in Python may lie in the disparity between
how many people are on the mailing list and how many people make it to a
meeting.  The fact that you don't see them may, itself, be evidence of
hiring bias.  Young people may be more likely to blow off networking and
professional development stuff during the time they're in heavy professional
demand.

$.02,

Dylan
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From aahz at pythoncraft.com  Mon Jun  8 15:56:47 2009
From: aahz at pythoncraft.com (Aahz)
Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2009 06:56:47 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] Finding work - Company: Keas (S.F.)
In-Reply-To: <4c645a720906080640w626728f6g2c678f80c453ff22@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.4550.1244270203.8014.baypiggies@python.org>
	<CBA5D53A9AFF49AFA7E24A09922E2E6A@orion>
	<20090608023223.GA21596@panix.com>
	<4c645a720906080640w626728f6g2c678f80c453ff22@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20090608135647.GA5851@panix.com>

On Mon, Jun 08, 2009, Dylan Reinhardt wrote:
> On Sun, Jun 7, 2009 at 7:32 PM, Aahz <aahz at pythoncraft.com> wrote:
>> 
>> Going off on a little bit of a tangent, it's my perception that because
>> Python is still largely self-selected, the Python community overall skews
>> older than other parts of the computer industry.  Although the bias
>> toward young people does exist in the computer industry, I've seen little
>> evidence of it in hiring for Python jobs.
> 
> That's not my sense of Python demographics at all.  Or of hiring bias.
>
> People who attend meetings *also* represent a largely self-selected
> group.  There may be something about the meeting night, time, or
> location that causes one group to show up and another not to make it.
> I've wanted to come to a meeting of this group for years and never
> seem to make it happen.
>
> Your evidence for young people in Python may lie in the disparity
> between how many people are on the mailing list and how many people
> make it to a meeting.  The fact that you don't see them may, itself,
> be evidence of hiring bias.  Young people may be more likely to blow
> off networking and professional development stuff during the time
> they're in heavy professional demand.

You're making statements about my evidence without knowing what my
evidence is?  Why do you think that my evidence comes from BayPIGgies
meeting demographics?

Side note: for anyone not aware, the current Release Manager for Python
is not yet eighteen, so it's certainly the case that younger people are
also heavily involved with Python development.
-- 
Aahz (aahz at pythoncraft.com)           <*>         http://www.pythoncraft.com/

"If you don't know what your program is supposed to do, you'd better not
start writing it."  --Dijkstra

From python at dylanreinhardt.com  Mon Jun  8 16:38:30 2009
From: python at dylanreinhardt.com (Dylan Reinhardt)
Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2009 07:38:30 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] Finding work - Company: Keas (S.F.)
In-Reply-To: <20090608135647.GA5851@panix.com>
References: <mailman.4550.1244270203.8014.baypiggies@python.org>
	<CBA5D53A9AFF49AFA7E24A09922E2E6A@orion>
	<20090608023223.GA21596@panix.com>
	<4c645a720906080640w626728f6g2c678f80c453ff22@mail.gmail.com>
	<20090608135647.GA5851@panix.com>
Message-ID: <4c645a720906080738n50a46404rb89d0f2086fbc685@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Jun 8, 2009 at 6:56 AM, Aahz <aahz at pythoncraft.com> wrote:

> You're making statements about my evidence without knowing what my
> evidence is?  Why do you think that my evidence comes from BayPIGgies
> meeting demographics?


I think you may have mis-understood the sense in which I said "your
evidence".  I meant to indicate that there was additional evidence available
to observe, not that I know anything about your particular research
methodology.

Point being, your contention that Python skews older conflicts with my
experience, so I thought I should share what I've seen.  For example, I
attend meetings in Portland now and then.  Up there, you might see 20 people
show up to a meeting and only a couple of us will be obviously over 30.  7-8
years ago, however, Portland meetings *did* skew older.  I don't know why
this demographic clustering happens, but it does happen.

There are a significant number of us who are using Python and actively
promoting Python who haven't really been a part of the "community" per se.
I don't know what evidence you're using to come to your conclusion that
Python skews old... but since you and I have never met, I know you're
missing at least one data point.  And I'm pretty sure I'm not the only one.

FWIW,

Dylan
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From aahz at pythoncraft.com  Mon Jun  8 18:01:31 2009
From: aahz at pythoncraft.com (Aahz)
Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2009 09:01:31 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] Finding work - Company: Keas (S.F.)
In-Reply-To: <39391B56-E7B6-4AD1-81F8-B6DC4C21E0EA@atoulou.se>
References: <mailman.4550.1244270203.8014.baypiggies@python.org>
	<CBA5D53A9AFF49AFA7E24A09922E2E6A@orion>
	<20090608023223.GA21596@panix.com>
	<39391B56-E7B6-4AD1-81F8-B6DC4C21E0EA@atoulou.se>
Message-ID: <20090608160131.GB12012@panix.com>

On Sun, Jun 07, 2009, Andrew Akira Toulouse wrote:
>
> Young people are electing to learn Python, too. It's fairly popular  
> among the savvy programmers I know, and even required for some classes  
> (i.e. CS188 at Berkeley). What reasons could be responsible for the  
> older age skew you suggest?

Python being required for classes is a recent development.  Mainly I
think that Python just happened to attract mostly experienced programmers
for the first fifteen years of its existence.
-- 
Aahz (aahz at pythoncraft.com)           <*>         http://www.pythoncraft.com/

"If you don't know what your program is supposed to do, you'd better not
start writing it."  --Dijkstra

From aahz at pythoncraft.com  Mon Jun  8 18:39:21 2009
From: aahz at pythoncraft.com (Aahz)
Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2009 09:39:21 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] June meeting: website needs update
Message-ID: <20090608163921.GA14349@panix.com>

The front page of baypiggies.net still points at the April meeting...
-- 
Aahz (aahz at pythoncraft.com)           <*>         http://www.pythoncraft.com/

"If you don't know what your program is supposed to do, you'd better not
start writing it."  --Dijkstra

From aahz at pythoncraft.com  Mon Jun  8 18:39:44 2009
From: aahz at pythoncraft.com (Aahz)
Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2009 09:39:44 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] Newbie Nugget?
In-Reply-To: <0A9DE494A9174405BBF0BD83AED4353C@antonioe186e86>
References: <20090608040844.GA11630@panix.com>
	<0A9DE494A9174405BBF0BD83AED4353C@antonioe186e86>
Message-ID: <20090608163944.GA11111@panix.com>

[replying on-list with permission]

On Mon, Jun 08, 2009, Antonio wrote:
>
> Hi Aahz,
> Being I'm a newbie at Python, and to this list...what is a "newbie nugget"

Newbie nuggets are short presentations (about ten minutes) at the
beginning of BayPIGgies meetings aimed at beginning and intermediate
Python programmers.  You can see some of the previous ones by looking at
the archive:

http://baypiggies.net/index_html/events/meeting-archive
-- 
Aahz (aahz at pythoncraft.com)           <*>         http://www.pythoncraft.com/

"If you don't know what your program is supposed to do, you'd better not
start writing it."  --Dijkstra

From bdbaddog at gmail.com  Mon Jun  8 19:08:14 2009
From: bdbaddog at gmail.com (William Deegan)
Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2009 10:08:14 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] June meeting: website needs update
In-Reply-To: <20090608163921.GA14349@panix.com>
References: <20090608163921.GA14349@panix.com>
Message-ID: <8540148a0906081008k11c10a31pce10fce2990d7767@mail.gmail.com>

Updated.
Lemme know when the newbie nugget topic is decided.

-Bill

On Mon, Jun 8, 2009 at 9:39 AM, Aahz <aahz at pythoncraft.com> wrote:

> The front page of baypiggies.net still points at the April meeting...
> --
> Aahz (aahz at pythoncraft.com)           <*>
> http://www.pythoncraft.com/
>
> "If you don't know what your program is supposed to do, you'd better not
> start writing it."  --Dijkstra
> _______________________________________________
> Baypiggies mailing list
> Baypiggies at python.org
> To change your subscription options or unsubscribe:
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies
>
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From aahz at pythoncraft.com  Mon Jun  8 19:14:25 2009
From: aahz at pythoncraft.com (Aahz)
Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2009 10:14:25 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] June meeting: website needs update
In-Reply-To: <8540148a0906081008k11c10a31pce10fce2990d7767@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20090608163921.GA14349@panix.com>
	<8540148a0906081008k11c10a31pce10fce2990d7767@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20090608171425.GA17512@panix.com>

On Mon, Jun 08, 2009, William Deegan wrote:
>
> Updated.

Thanks!
-- 
Aahz (aahz at pythoncraft.com)           <*>         http://www.pythoncraft.com/

"If you don't know what your program is supposed to do, you'd better not
start writing it."  --Dijkstra

From charles.merriam at gmail.com  Mon Jun  8 20:12:26 2009
From: charles.merriam at gmail.com (Charles Merriam)
Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2009 11:12:26 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] Finding work - Company: Keas (S.F.)
In-Reply-To: <20090608160131.GB12012@panix.com>
References: <mailman.4550.1244270203.8014.baypiggies@python.org>
	<CBA5D53A9AFF49AFA7E24A09922E2E6A@orion>
	<20090608023223.GA21596@panix.com>
	<39391B56-E7B6-4AD1-81F8-B6DC4C21E0EA@atoulou.se>
	<20090608160131.GB12012@panix.com>
Message-ID: <b8c6f6c40906081112q4ee57f8bxb36395ada7a3b7ec@mail.gmail.com>

This does beg the questions:

1.  What would BayPiggies, PyCon, PyGame, etc., do differently with a
better understanding of demographics?

2.  Is there a demographic Python wants to capture that it could aim for?

The only demographic consistently raised are highly competent female
programmers that are uncomfortable in other programming communities.
We know we could aim at aggressively recruiting excellent female
speakers, ask our few female members what would be helpful, set up a
female Python professionals social network, etc.  Might be a good time
to raid every good female programmer from the Rails community. (:-)?)

If we need better demographics, we can get them from meetings, the
mailing list, and PyCon.  First, I think we need to understand why we
should get them.

Have a great day!

Charles

From charles.merriam at gmail.com  Mon Jun  8 20:25:37 2009
From: charles.merriam at gmail.com (Charles Merriam)
Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2009 11:25:37 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] Pylons/Web-focused meet ups in Bay Area ?
In-Reply-To: <DB3090D7-BBA0-4368-B916-911487A29CDD@slide.com>
References: <5A66A52A-BC72-4297-BD29-CA263FEE27D3@slide.com>
	<c41f67b90906072328u6c46f72fi417fb54f5425d433@mail.gmail.com>
	<DB3090D7-BBA0-4368-B916-911487A29CDD@slide.com>
Message-ID: <b8c6f6c40906081125w40c9f9a7j921cbe4320bb87ab@mail.gmail.com>

I'll believe that we should get ALL Bay Area Python interests to
push/pull a common RSS feed announcing meeting.  It's only one
community with many parties.

What's required?
 -- Charles

On Mon, Jun 8, 2009 at 12:19 AM, Grace Law<glaw at slide.com> wrote:
>
> On Jun 7, 2009, at 11:28 PM, Shannon -jj Behrens wrote:
>
>>> IMHO - we should limit the number of python meetups. ?We already have
>>> Baypiggies in the Silicon Valley and 2 in San Francisco.
>>
>> I think there are three in San Francisco. ?SF Python Meetup, the one
>> about writing video games in Python (which sounds like a fun group),
>> and the Django one.
>
> I think you are referring to PyGameSF -
>
> http://www.pygamesf.org/?page_id=2
>
> According to their description, It seems like it focuses more on multimedia
> programming than python itself.
>
> Grace
>
>>
>> -jj
>>
>> --
>> In this life we cannot do great things. We can only do small things
>> with great love. -- Mother Teresa
>> http://jjinux.blogspot.com/
>
> _______________________________________________
> Baypiggies mailing list
> Baypiggies at python.org
> To change your subscription options or unsubscribe:
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies
>

From bdbaddog at gmail.com  Mon Jun  8 20:41:32 2009
From: bdbaddog at gmail.com (William Deegan)
Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2009 11:41:32 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] Pylons/Web-focused meet ups in Bay Area ?
In-Reply-To: <b8c6f6c40906081125w40c9f9a7j921cbe4320bb87ab@mail.gmail.com>
References: <5A66A52A-BC72-4297-BD29-CA263FEE27D3@slide.com>
	<c41f67b90906072328u6c46f72fi417fb54f5425d433@mail.gmail.com>
	<DB3090D7-BBA0-4368-B916-911487A29CDD@slide.com>
	<b8c6f6c40906081125w40c9f9a7j921cbe4320bb87ab@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <8540148a0906081141t77e9ea27n19b4ccf26ae16583@mail.gmail.com>

Charles,

On Mon, Jun 8, 2009 at 11:25 AM, Charles Merriam
<charles.merriam at gmail.com>wrote:

> I'll believe that we should get ALL Bay Area Python interests to
> push/pull a common RSS feed announcing meeting.  It's only one
> community with many parties.
>

>
> What's required?


The current baypiggies.net site already publishes an RSS feed of all events
on the site.
So all we'd need to do is add the other events to the baypiggies event
calendar and voila!

Here's the feed:
http://baypiggies.net/index_html/events/RSS

-Bill


>
>  -- Charles
>
> On Mon, Jun 8, 2009 at 12:19 AM, Grace Law<glaw at slide.com> wrote:
> >
> > On Jun 7, 2009, at 11:28 PM, Shannon -jj Behrens wrote:
> >
> >>> IMHO - we should limit the number of python meetups.  We already have
> >>> Baypiggies in the Silicon Valley and 2 in San Francisco.
> >>
> >> I think there are three in San Francisco.  SF Python Meetup, the one
> >> about writing video games in Python (which sounds like a fun group),
> >> and the Django one.
> >
> > I think you are referring to PyGameSF -
> >
> > http://www.pygamesf.org/?page_id=2
> >
> > According to their description, It seems like it focuses more on
> multimedia
> > programming than python itself.
> >
> > Grace
> >
> >>
> >> -jj
> >>
> >> --
> >> In this life we cannot do great things. We can only do small things
> >> with great love. -- Mother Teresa
> >> http://jjinux.blogspot.com/
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Baypiggies mailing list
> > Baypiggies at python.org
> > To change your subscription options or unsubscribe:
> > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies
> >
> _______________________________________________
> Baypiggies mailing list
> Baypiggies at python.org
> To change your subscription options or unsubscribe:
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies
>
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From jim at well.com  Mon Jun  8 21:00:10 2009
From: jim at well.com (jim)
Date: Mon, 08 Jun 2009 12:00:10 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] Newbie Nugget?
In-Reply-To: <20090608040844.GA11630@panix.com>
References: <20090608040844.GA11630@panix.com>
Message-ID: <1244487610.6311.149.camel@jim-laptop>


   many thanks, aahz. turns out just this time 
that Alex Martelli's talk on Abstraction will 
take the entire time (and possibly then some 
if there are searching questions). 
   we definitely need newbie nuggets for 
subsequent meetings, so all of you who're 
preparing, we'll need you in july and months 
following. 
jim 
PS: here's alex' description of the talk: 
"""
Abstraction is a powerful servant, but a dangerous master. We code,
design, think, debug ... on a tower of abstractions. Spolsky's Law
tells us that "All abstractions leak". This talk explores why they
leak, why that's often a problem, what to do about it; I also cover
why sometimes abstractions SHOULD "leak", and how best to produce and
consume abstraction layers.
"""



On Sun, 2009-06-07 at 21:08 -0700, Aahz wrote:
> Anyone want to do a newbie nugget Thurs 6/25?


From bdbaddog at gmail.com  Mon Jun  8 21:23:08 2009
From: bdbaddog at gmail.com (William Deegan)
Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2009 12:23:08 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] Newbie Nugget?
In-Reply-To: <1244487610.6311.149.camel@jim-laptop>
References: <20090608040844.GA11630@panix.com>
	<1244487610.6311.149.camel@jim-laptop>
Message-ID: <8540148a0906081223o6f385c3w54308354278f36ff@mail.gmail.com>

Website updated with description of talk.
-Bill

On Mon, Jun 8, 2009 at 12:00 PM, jim <jim at well.com> wrote:

>
>   many thanks, aahz. turns out just this time
> that Alex Martelli's talk on Abstraction will
> take the entire time (and possibly then some
> if there are searching questions).
>   we definitely need newbie nuggets for
> subsequent meetings, so all of you who're
> preparing, we'll need you in july and months
> following.
> jim
> PS: here's alex' description of the talk:
> """
> Abstraction is a powerful servant, but a dangerous master. We code,
> design, think, debug ... on a tower of abstractions. Spolsky's Law
> tells us that "All abstractions leak". This talk explores why they
> leak, why that's often a problem, what to do about it; I also cover
> why sometimes abstractions SHOULD "leak", and how best to produce and
> consume abstraction layers.
> """
>
>
>
> On Sun, 2009-06-07 at 21:08 -0700, Aahz wrote:
> > Anyone want to do a newbie nugget Thurs 6/25?
>
> _______________________________________________
> Baypiggies mailing list
> Baypiggies at python.org
> To change your subscription options or unsubscribe:
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies
>
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From slander at unworkable.org  Mon Jun  8 22:47:26 2009
From: slander at unworkable.org (Harry Tormey)
Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2009 13:47:26 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] Pylons/Web-focused meet ups in Bay Area ?
In-Reply-To: <20090604214134.GA31430@unworkable.org>
References: <20090604214134.GA31430@unworkable.org>
Message-ID: <20090608204726.GA6283@unworkable.org>

Baypiggies has put on some fantastic big name talks and is a great
event for meeting people/networking. 

However its scale (20+ people) does not lend itself to small group
discussions where an idea can be developed. PyGameSF fills this role 
but its focus is on multimedia projects and not strictly web frameworks.

I think there is a hole in the market for a smaller (less than 15
people) more hackathon oriented Meetup for python web frameworks,
where developers who write apps with different frameworks can meet to
compare notes and perhaps collaborate on projects.


On Thu, Jun 04, 2009 at 02:41:34PM -0700, Niall O'Higgins wrote:
> Hi all,
> 
> Just wondering if there are any existing meet-ups focused on
> Python-based Web technologies, e.g.  WSGI/Pylons/Django/TurboGears in
> the Bay Area.
> 
> Ideally this would be a forum for people to present their work,
> share knowledge and collaborate.
> 
> If there aren't any already, I would be interested in starting such a
> group.
> 
> Thanks!
> 
> -- 
> Niall O'Higgins
> http://niallohiggins.com
> _______________________________________________
> Baypiggies mailing list
> Baypiggies at python.org
> To change your subscription options or unsubscribe:
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies

-- 
Harry Tormey
Co Founder P2P Research
http://p2presearch.com
Founder PyGameSF
http://pygamesf.org
Software Engineer Digidesign
http://digidesign.com

From progrium at gmail.com  Mon Jun  8 22:57:59 2009
From: progrium at gmail.com (Jeff Lindsay)
Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2009 13:57:59 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] Pylons/Web-focused meet ups in Bay Area ?
In-Reply-To: <20090608204726.GA6283@unworkable.org>
References: <20090604214134.GA31430@unworkable.org>
	<20090608204726.GA6283@unworkable.org>
Message-ID: <ec47901a0906081357o37eb807dg8d39e0c48a6dd747@mail.gmail.com>

Or you could just get them all to come to SuperHappyDevHouse. ;)

-jeff

On 6/8/09, Harry Tormey <slander at unworkable.org> wrote:
>
> Baypiggies has put on some fantastic big name talks and is a great
> event for meeting people/networking.
>
> However its scale (20+ people) does not lend itself to small group
> discussions where an idea can be developed. PyGameSF fills this role
> but its focus is on multimedia projects and not strictly web frameworks.
>
> I think there is a hole in the market for a smaller (less than 15
> people) more hackathon oriented Meetup for python web frameworks,
> where developers who write apps with different frameworks can meet to
> compare notes and perhaps collaborate on projects.
>
>
>
> On Thu, Jun 04, 2009 at 02:41:34PM -0700, Niall O'Higgins wrote:
> > Hi all,
> >
> > Just wondering if there are any existing meet-ups focused on
> > Python-based Web technologies, e.g.  WSGI/Pylons/Django/TurboGears in
> > the Bay Area.
> >
> > Ideally this would be a forum for people to present their work,
> > share knowledge and collaborate.
> >
> > If there aren't any already, I would be interested in starting such a
> > group.
> >
> > Thanks!
> >
> > --
> > Niall O'Higgins
> > http://niallohiggins.com
> > _______________________________________________
> > Baypiggies mailing list
> > Baypiggies at python.org
> > To change your subscription options or unsubscribe:
> > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies
>
>
> --
> Harry Tormey
> Co Founder P2P Research
> http://p2presearch.com
> Founder PyGameSF
> http://pygamesf.org
> Software Engineer Digidesign
> http://digidesign.com
>
> _______________________________________________
> Baypiggies mailing list
> Baypiggies at python.org
> To change your subscription options or unsubscribe:
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies
>



-- 
Jeff Lindsay
http://webhooks.org -- Make the web more programmable
http://shdh.org -- A party for hackers and thinkers
http://tigdb.com -- Discover indie games
http://progrium.com -- More interesting things
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From jon at inklesspen.com  Mon Jun  8 23:44:31 2009
From: jon at inklesspen.com (Jon Rosebaugh)
Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2009 14:44:31 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] Pylons/Web-focused meet ups in Bay Area ?
In-Reply-To: <ec47901a0906081357o37eb807dg8d39e0c48a6dd747@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20090604214134.GA31430@unworkable.org>
	<20090608204726.GA6283@unworkable.org>
	<ec47901a0906081357o37eb807dg8d39e0c48a6dd747@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <C8337C19-8A92-4026-B80B-1D26E403B3C5@inklesspen.com>

It'd help if the website listed anything more recent than April 25,  
2009. Nothing new on the mailing list, either.

On Jun 8, 2009, at 1:57 PM, Jeff Lindsay wrote:

> Or you could just get them all to come to SuperHappyDevHouse. ;)
>
> -jeff
>
> On 6/8/09, Harry Tormey <slander at unworkable.org> wrote: Baypiggies  
> has put on some fantastic big name talks and is a great
> event for meeting people/networking.
>
> However its scale (20+ people) does not lend itself to small group
> discussions where an idea can be developed. PyGameSF fills this role
> but its focus is on multimedia projects and not strictly web  
> frameworks.
>
> I think there is a hole in the market for a smaller (less than 15
> people) more hackathon oriented Meetup for python web frameworks,
> where developers who write apps with different frameworks can meet to
> compare notes and perhaps collaborate on projects.
>
>
>
> On Thu, Jun 04, 2009 at 02:41:34PM -0700, Niall O'Higgins wrote:
> > Hi all,
> >
> > Just wondering if there are any existing meet-ups focused on
> > Python-based Web technologies, e.g.  WSGI/Pylons/Django/TurboGears  
> in
> > the Bay Area.
> >
> > Ideally this would be a forum for people to present their work,
> > share knowledge and collaborate.
> >
> > If there aren't any already, I would be interested in starting  
> such a
> > group.
> >
> > Thanks!
> >
> > --
> > Niall O'Higgins
> > http://niallohiggins.com
> > _______________________________________________
> > Baypiggies mailing list
> > Baypiggies at python.org
> > To change your subscription options or unsubscribe:
> > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies
>
>
> --
> Harry Tormey
> Co Founder P2P Research
> http://p2presearch.com
> Founder PyGameSF
> http://pygamesf.org
> Software Engineer Digidesign
> http://digidesign.com
>
> _______________________________________________
> Baypiggies mailing list
> Baypiggies at python.org
> To change your subscription options or unsubscribe:
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies
>
>
>
> -- 
> Jeff Lindsay
> http://webhooks.org -- Make the web more programmable
> http://shdh.org -- A party for hackers and thinkers
> http://tigdb.com -- Discover indie games
> http://progrium.com -- More interesting things  
> _______________________________________________
> Baypiggies mailing list
> Baypiggies at python.org
> To change your subscription options or unsubscribe:
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies


From progrium at gmail.com  Tue Jun  9 00:10:13 2009
From: progrium at gmail.com (Jeff Lindsay)
Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2009 15:10:13 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] Pylons/Web-focused meet ups in Bay Area ?
In-Reply-To: <C8337C19-8A92-4026-B80B-1D26E403B3C5@inklesspen.com>
References: <20090604214134.GA31430@unworkable.org>
	<20090608204726.GA6283@unworkable.org>
	<ec47901a0906081357o37eb807dg8d39e0c48a6dd747@mail.gmail.com>
	<C8337C19-8A92-4026-B80B-1D26E403B3C5@inklesspen.com>
Message-ID: <ec47901a0906081510v6cc1a388l9450cb71e0e3d5d2@mail.gmail.com>

Well we haven't announced anything since then. We've been busy opening
a hacker community center that can be used for meetups of all kinds.
But if history shows anything, there will be another
SuperHappyDevHouse soon... I'm just saying it's something that can be
used when they do happen.

On Mon, Jun 8, 2009 at 2:44 PM, Jon Rosebaugh<jon at inklesspen.com> wrote:
> It'd help if the website listed anything more recent than April 25, 2009.
> Nothing new on the mailing list, either.
>
> On Jun 8, 2009, at 1:57 PM, Jeff Lindsay wrote:
>
>> Or you could just get them all to come to SuperHappyDevHouse. ;)
>>
>> -jeff
>>
>> On 6/8/09, Harry Tormey <slander at unworkable.org> wrote: Baypiggies has put
>> on some fantastic big name talks and is a great
>> event for meeting people/networking.
>>
>> However its scale (20+ people) does not lend itself to small group
>> discussions where an idea can be developed. PyGameSF fills this role
>> but its focus is on multimedia projects and not strictly web frameworks.
>>
>> I think there is a hole in the market for a smaller (less than 15
>> people) more hackathon oriented Meetup for python web frameworks,
>> where developers who write apps with different frameworks can meet to
>> compare notes and perhaps collaborate on projects.
>>
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Jun 04, 2009 at 02:41:34PM -0700, Niall O'Higgins wrote:
>> > Hi all,
>> >
>> > Just wondering if there are any existing meet-ups focused on
>> > Python-based Web technologies, e.g. ?WSGI/Pylons/Django/TurboGears in
>> > the Bay Area.
>> >
>> > Ideally this would be a forum for people to present their work,
>> > share knowledge and collaborate.
>> >
>> > If there aren't any already, I would be interested in starting such a
>> > group.
>> >
>> > Thanks!
>> >
>> > --
>> > Niall O'Higgins
>> > http://niallohiggins.com
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > Baypiggies mailing list
>> > Baypiggies at python.org
>> > To change your subscription options or unsubscribe:
>> > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies
>>
>>
>> --
>> Harry Tormey
>> Co Founder P2P Research
>> http://p2presearch.com
>> Founder PyGameSF
>> http://pygamesf.org
>> Software Engineer Digidesign
>> http://digidesign.com
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Baypiggies mailing list
>> Baypiggies at python.org
>> To change your subscription options or unsubscribe:
>> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Jeff Lindsay
>> http://webhooks.org -- Make the web more programmable
>> http://shdh.org -- A party for hackers and thinkers
>> http://tigdb.com -- Discover indie games
>> http://progrium.com -- More interesting things
>> _______________________________________________
>> Baypiggies mailing list
>> Baypiggies at python.org
>> To change your subscription options or unsubscribe:
>> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies
>
>



-- 
Jeff Lindsay
http://webhooks.org -- Make the web more programmable
http://shdh.org -- A party for hackers and thinkers
http://tigdb.com -- Discover indie games
http://progrium.com -- More interesting things

From glen at glenjarvis.com  Tue Jun  9 03:36:13 2009
From: glen at glenjarvis.com (Glen Jarvis)
Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2009 18:36:13 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] Jim and Alex
In-Reply-To: <1244487610.6311.149.camel@jim-laptop>
References: <20090608040844.GA11630@panix.com>
	<1244487610.6311.149.camel@jim-laptop>
Message-ID: <BA25522C-2F17-4A73-86AD-9C62FEB0F98B@glenjarvis.com>

> many thanks, aahz. turns out just this time
> that Alex Martelli's talk on Abstraction will
> take the entire time (and possibly then some
> if there are searching questions).

And, Thank *you* Jim for always being such a great organizer. (I'm  
sorry I hadn't gotten to your shell discussion yet, it's been a very  
busy month).

> Abstraction is a powerful servant, but a dangerous master. We code,
> design, think, debug ... on a tower of abstractions. Spolsky's Law
> tells us that "All abstractions leak". This talk explores why they
> leak, why that's often a problem, what to do about it; I also cover
> why sometimes abstractions SHOULD "leak", and how best to produce and
> consume abstraction layers.

I am *very* interested in this talk. This will be very *very*  
interesting.

Alex,
     If you get a chance, can you either give us some slides to  
preview or send out a "preparation homework?"  I'd like to have all  
the background knowledge (e.g., what is Spolsky's Law) personally  
researched so I can get the *most* out of what you're going to talk  
about....


Thank you everyone,


Glen
--
415-680-3964
glen at glenjarvis.com

"You must be the change you wish to see in the world." -M. Gandhi

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From cbc at unc.edu  Tue Jun  9 02:57:48 2009
From: cbc at unc.edu (Chris Calloway)
Date: Mon, 08 Jun 2009 20:57:48 -0400
Subject: [Baypiggies] TriZPUG BootCamps for July 2009: Python in Toronto and
 Plone in Chapel Hill
Message-ID: <4A2DB38C.3060904@unc.edu>

Triangle Zope and Python Users Group (TriZPUG, http://trizpug.org)
extends an invitation to you to attend one of our annual, week-long,
ultra-low cost BootCamps.

PyCamp is the original Python BootCamp developed by a user group for
user groups. This year PyCamp is July 13-17 at the University of
Toronto, sponsored by the Department of Physics and Scryent. For
beginners, PyCamp makes you productive so you can get your work done
quickly. PyCamp emphasizes the features which make Python a simpler and
more efficient language. Following along by example speeds your learning
process in a modern high-tech classroom. Become a self-sufficient Python
developer in just five days at PyCamp!

http://pycamp.org

The fifth annual Plone BootCamp takes place July 20-24 at the University
of North Carolina, sponsored by Carolina Cardiovascular Biology Center.
Learn the essentials you need to build your Plone site and deploy it.
This course is the most popular in the Plone world--for a good reason:
it teaches you practical skills in a friendly, hands-on format. Updated
for Plone 3.1 and 3.2, while still offering the core skills required for
all versions of Plone.

http://plonebootcamps.com/courses/unc4
http://trizpug.org/boot-camp/pbc5/

Come to the third annual Advanced Plone BootCamp, July 27-30 at the
University of North Carolina, sponsored by the Carolina Cardiovascular
Biology Center. Interestedin building a site using the best practices of
Plone 3? Want to advance your skills in scripting and developing for
Plone? This course covers the new technologies in Plone 3.1 and 3.2
intended for site integrators and developers: our new portlet
infrastructure, viewlets, versioning, and a friendly introduction to
Zope 3 component architecture. Now, updated for Plone 3.2 and 3.3 betas!

http://plonebootcamps.com/courses/unc4-adv
http://trizpug.org/boot-camp/pbc5/

-- 
Sincerely,

Chris Calloway
http://www.secoora.org
office: 332 Chapman Hall   phone: (919) 599-3530
mail: Campus Box #3300, UNC-CH, Chapel Hill, NC 27599





From brent.tubbs at gmail.com  Tue Jun  9 08:13:22 2009
From: brent.tubbs at gmail.com (Brent Tubbs)
Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2009 23:13:22 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] Jim and Alex
In-Reply-To: <BA25522C-2F17-4A73-86AD-9C62FEB0F98B@glenjarvis.com>
References: <20090608040844.GA11630@panix.com>
	<1244487610.6311.149.camel@jim-laptop>
	<BA25522C-2F17-4A73-86AD-9C62FEB0F98B@glenjarvis.com>
Message-ID: <769bb4300906082313m5fa88c62va1996ec66a595915@mail.gmail.com>

Not to speak for Alex, but Glen's question led to me Google "Spolsky's
Law", which led me to
http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/LeakyAbstractions.html, an
article by Joel Spolsky of the blog "Joel on Software".  The article
makes me look forward to the talk even more.

Brent

On Mon, Jun 8, 2009 at 6:36 PM, Glen Jarvis<glen at glenjarvis.com> wrote:
> many thanks, aahz. turns out just this time
> that Alex Martelli's talk on Abstraction will
> take the entire time (and possibly then some
> if there are searching questions).
>
> And, Thank *you* Jim for always being such a great organizer. (I'm sorry I
> hadn't gotten to your shell discussion yet, it's been a very busy month).
>
> Abstraction is a powerful servant, but a dangerous master. We code,
>
> design, think, debug ... on a tower of abstractions. Spolsky's Law
> tells us that "All abstractions leak". This talk explores why they
> leak, why that's often a problem, what to do about it; I also cover
> why sometimes abstractions SHOULD "leak", and how best to produce and
> consume abstraction layers.
>
> I am *very* interested in this talk. This will be very *very* interesting.
> Alex,
> ?? ?If you get a chance, can you either give us some slides to preview or
> send out a "preparation homework?" ?I'd like to have all the background
> knowledge (e.g., what is Spolsky's Law) personally researched so I can get
> the *most* out of what you're going to talk about....
>
> Thank you everyone,
>
> Glen
> --
> 415-680-3964
> glen at glenjarvis.com
> "You must be the change you wish to see in the world." -M. Gandhi
>
> _______________________________________________
> Baypiggies mailing list
> Baypiggies at python.org
> To change your subscription options or unsubscribe:
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies
>

From aleax at google.com  Tue Jun  9 08:29:11 2009
From: aleax at google.com (Alex Martelli)
Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2009 23:29:11 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] Jim and Alex
In-Reply-To: <BA25522C-2F17-4A73-86AD-9C62FEB0F98B@glenjarvis.com>
References: <20090608040844.GA11630@panix.com>
	<1244487610.6311.149.camel@jim-laptop>
	<BA25522C-2F17-4A73-86AD-9C62FEB0F98B@glenjarvis.com>
Message-ID: <55dc209b0906082329w56a8f58aq26ae220cc021aa82@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Jun 8, 2009 at 6:36 PM, Glen Jarvis<glen at glenjarvis.com> wrote:
   ...
> I am *very* interested in this talk. This will be very *very* interesting.

Great!

> Alex,
> ?? ?If you get a chance, can you either give us some slides to preview or
> send out a "preparation homework?" ?I'd like to have all the background
> knowledge (e.g., what is Spolsky's Law) personally researched so I can get
> the *most* out of what you're going to talk about....

If you can follow Italian,
http://www.viddler.com/explore/zinanni/videos/1/ is the Italian
version of this presentation (video) and
http://www.aleax.it/itpyc_abst.pdf the PDF with the slides from it.
http://www.aleax.it/pycon_abst.pdf are the slides for the shorter,
rougher version I did at Pycon 2009,
http://defcraft.blogspot.com/2009/04/notes-from-alex-martellis-talk-pycon.html
are sriram's notes from it... video's somewhere on blip.tv but I can't
find it right now (Anna? help?).

The Baypiggies presentation is the penultimate try-out to the final
episode where I'll be presenting this very subject at OSCON'09 in San
Jose in July.

Suggested readings for those who want to prep, besides Spolsky,
Attwood and Fried, include Korzibsky (General Semantics), the Book of
Five Rings, D. Knuth, and all of the sources of the open-source SDK
for Google App Engine, at code.google.com.  Even if you can't make it
to the talk, reading through this material can't help prompting your
growth;-).


Alex

From sriram.thaiyar at gmail.com  Tue Jun  9 08:59:32 2009
From: sriram.thaiyar at gmail.com (Sriram Thaiyar)
Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2009 23:59:32 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] Jim and Alex
In-Reply-To: <55dc209b0906082329w56a8f58aq26ae220cc021aa82@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20090608040844.GA11630@panix.com>
	<1244487610.6311.149.camel@jim-laptop>
	<BA25522C-2F17-4A73-86AD-9C62FEB0F98B@glenjarvis.com>
	<55dc209b0906082329w56a8f58aq26ae220cc021aa82@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <3d767a450906082359h8925d7dmdf4f9fe3c71c06e0@mail.gmail.com>

> rougher version I did at Pycon 2009,
> http://defcraft.blogspot.com/2009/04/notes-from-alex-martellis-talk-pycon.html
> are sriram's notes from it... video's somewhere on blip.tv but I can't
> find it right now (Anna? help?).

I do link to the video on my blog.
Here is the link:
http://pycon.blip.tv/file/1957071/

The talk was really great! I highly recommend it.

-Sriram




On Mon, Jun 8, 2009 at 11:29 PM, Alex Martelli<aleax at google.com> wrote:
> On Mon, Jun 8, 2009 at 6:36 PM, Glen Jarvis<glen at glenjarvis.com> wrote:
> ? ...
>> I am *very* interested in this talk. This will be very *very* interesting.
>
> Great!
>
>> Alex,
>> ?? ?If you get a chance, can you either give us some slides to preview or
>> send out a "preparation homework?" ?I'd like to have all the background
>> knowledge (e.g., what is Spolsky's Law) personally researched so I can get
>> the *most* out of what you're going to talk about....
>
> If you can follow Italian,
> http://www.viddler.com/explore/zinanni/videos/1/ is the Italian
> version of this presentation (video) and
> http://www.aleax.it/itpyc_abst.pdf the PDF with the slides from it.
> http://www.aleax.it/pycon_abst.pdf are the slides for the shorter,
> rougher version I did at Pycon 2009,
> http://defcraft.blogspot.com/2009/04/notes-from-alex-martellis-talk-pycon.html
> are sriram's notes from it... video's somewhere on blip.tv but I can't
> find it right now (Anna? help?).
>
> The Baypiggies presentation is the penultimate try-out to the final
> episode where I'll be presenting this very subject at OSCON'09 in San
> Jose in July.
>
> Suggested readings for those who want to prep, besides Spolsky,
> Attwood and Fried, include Korzibsky (General Semantics), the Book of
> Five Rings, D. Knuth, and all of the sources of the open-source SDK
> for Google App Engine, at code.google.com. ?Even if you can't make it
> to the talk, reading through this material can't help prompting your
> growth;-).
>
>
> Alex
> _______________________________________________
> Baypiggies mailing list
> Baypiggies at python.org
> To change your subscription options or unsubscribe:
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies
>

From aleax at google.com  Tue Jun  9 19:57:38 2009
From: aleax at google.com (Alex Martelli)
Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2009 10:57:38 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] Jim and Alex
In-Reply-To: <3d767a450906082359h8925d7dmdf4f9fe3c71c06e0@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20090608040844.GA11630@panix.com>
	<1244487610.6311.149.camel@jim-laptop>
	<BA25522C-2F17-4A73-86AD-9C62FEB0F98B@glenjarvis.com>
	<55dc209b0906082329w56a8f58aq26ae220cc021aa82@mail.gmail.com>
	<3d767a450906082359h8925d7dmdf4f9fe3c71c06e0@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <55dc209b0906091057i2f8f528at14bc3f780ba7830d@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Jun 8, 2009 at 11:59 PM, Sriram Thaiyar
<sriram.thaiyar at gmail.com> wrote:
>> rougher version I did at Pycon 2009,
>> http://defcraft.blogspot.com/2009/04/notes-from-alex-martellis-talk-pycon.html
>> are sriram's notes from it... video's somewhere on blip.tv but I can't
>> find it right now (Anna? help?).
>
> I do link to the video on my blog.
> Here is the link:
> http://pycon.blip.tv/file/1957071/
>
> The talk was really great! I highly recommend it.

Thanks!  At Baypiggies I'll present the longer version (as I did in
Italian at Pycon Italia) as Jim's been so nice as to grant me extra
time -- but that longer version's only available on the net in Italian
at this time.

Alex

From donnamsnow at gmail.com  Tue Jun  9 20:07:54 2009
From: donnamsnow at gmail.com (Donna Snow)
Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2009 11:07:54 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] Just a quick note on the Plone site
Message-ID: <baf0d46b0906091107x479c9628kd4ee215d2d5029e3@mail.gmail.com>

There is a third party product for Plone called Plone4Artists which allows
you to embed video.

Would it make sense to create a "video" section of the site with all the
videos Glenn (and former video taking type people) have recorded?

See plone4artists.org

The video objects would point back to the youtube videos already online  (we
have a channel already right?) We wouldn't have to host the videos on our
account with webfaction.

Also has anyone started a facebook page or twitter account for baypiggies
yet?


Donna M Snow, Principal
C Squared Enterprises
illuminating your path to Open Source
http://www.csquaredtech.com

Coming July 1, 2009!
c2etraining.com
Learn Open Source online
watch and learn on your own time
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From charles.merriam at gmail.com  Tue Jun  9 20:24:54 2009
From: charles.merriam at gmail.com (Charles Merriam)
Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2009 11:24:54 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] More Female Engineers at BayPiggies and PyCon?
Message-ID: <b8c6f6c40906091124o78700eebo7ffc83f52d362bb7@mail.gmail.com>

Someone asked, so here are a few ways to encourage it:

1.  Seek some good female speakers.  We could lean on Donna Snow to
give a talk, or at least a nugget, on what is involved in an
installation of Plone.   Santa Clara University has an excellent
professor on Image Processing, and perhaps she could come?

2.  Give a few special perks.  Ask if Guido or Alex will inscribe some
give away books or offer words of encouragement?  Create a "Woman of
PyCon" group, or offer to help if such a group were to exist?
Encourage good female engineers to write up an experience story for
Python Magazine and encourage it to be printed?     Yes, these are
going to be a small bias where women get more opportunities than men.
Otherwise, all one could encourage is the overall growthn of the
language.

3.  Just have the BDFL state that Python wants to be the preferred
language of female engineers, that they are welcome, and. and that the
BDFL will occasionally mediate when someone goes weird?

Charles

From daryl.spitzer at gmail.com  Tue Jun  9 21:02:03 2009
From: daryl.spitzer at gmail.com (Daryl Spitzer)
Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2009 12:02:03 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] BayPIGgies on Twitter
Message-ID: <fbf2758a0906091202y2e175a8cv8ee15af8d2a792eb@mail.gmail.com>

There is a BayPIGgies Twitter account: http://twitter.com/baypiggies.
But it hasn't been updated in 322 days!  I don't know who created that
account (perhaps Anna?).  I volunteer to maintain it if that person
would like to transfer it to me.

--
Daryl


On Tue, Jun 9, 2009 at 11:07 AM, Donna Snow<donnamsnow at gmail.com> wrote:
> There is a third party product for Plone called Plone4Artists which allows
> you to embed video.
>
> Would it make sense to create a "video" section of the site with all the
> videos Glenn (and former video taking type people) have recorded?
>
> See plone4artists.org
>
> The video objects would point back to the youtube videos already online? (we
> have a channel already right?) We wouldn't have to host the videos on our
> account with webfaction.
>
> Also has anyone started a facebook page or twitter account for baypiggies
> yet?
>
>
> Donna M Snow, Principal
> C Squared Enterprises
> illuminating your path to Open Source
> http://www.csquaredtech.com
>
> Coming July 1, 2009!
> c2etraining.com
> Learn Open Source online
> watch and learn on your own time
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Baypiggies mailing list
> Baypiggies at python.org
> To change your subscription options or unsubscribe:
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies
>

From sandrine.ribeau at gmail.com  Tue Jun  9 21:23:35 2009
From: sandrine.ribeau at gmail.com (Sandrine Ribeau)
Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2009 12:23:35 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] Short talk proposal
Message-ID: <e337009b0906091223seb9a273ma674683c726788fa@mail.gmail.com>

Hi guys,

Logilab dit present a talk at Europython this year and I was thinking that
you might want to have a replay of it during one of the meeting.
http://www.europython.eu/talks/talk_abstracts/index.html#talk30

I can make it shorter so that it fits in your schedule for july or august.

Let me know.
Sandrine.
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From glen at glenjarvis.com  Wed Jun 10 06:48:46 2009
From: glen at glenjarvis.com (Glen Jarvis)
Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2009 21:48:46 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] More Female Engineers at BayPiggies and PyCon?
In-Reply-To: <b8c6f6c40906091124o78700eebo7ffc83f52d362bb7@mail.gmail.com>
References: <b8c6f6c40906091124o78700eebo7ffc83f52d362bb7@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <C2FF4AD1-94C9-47FB-9AD0-EC008B4DCBEA@glenjarvis.com>

> Someone asked, so here are a few ways to encourage it:
> ....

May I add a fourth point?

Rely heavily on the advice and input from the women we already have in  
this group. Donna's a great resource. However, I know that Alison has  
been at a few BayPIGgies lately, and I'm certain there are others that  
I'm not immediately thinking of. In fact, I'd let them drive this as  
much as they wanted to (if they want to)...

Cheers,



Glen
--
glen at glenjarvis.com

"You must be the change you wish to see in the world." -M. Gandhi




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From annaraven at gmail.com  Wed Jun 10 16:26:28 2009
From: annaraven at gmail.com (Anna Ravenscroft)
Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 07:26:28 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] Just a quick note on the Plone site
In-Reply-To: <baf0d46b0906091107x479c9628kd4ee215d2d5029e3@mail.gmail.com>
References: <baf0d46b0906091107x479c9628kd4ee215d2d5029e3@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <cb361a610906100726g259b9786ha7aa8112158fe749@mail.gmail.com>

> Also has anyone started a facebook page or twitter account for baypiggies
> yet?

We have a twitter account. No facebook yet, afaik.
-- 
cordially,
Anna
--
I am the mother of all things and all things shall wear a sweater!

From aahz at pythoncraft.com  Thu Jun 11 21:57:45 2009
From: aahz at pythoncraft.com (Aahz)
Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2009 12:57:45 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] EXTENDED: OSCON 2009 early bird (June 23)
Message-ID: <20090611195745.GA17890@panix.com>

Registration is now open for the O'Reilly Open Source Convention (OSCON).
OSCON 2009 will be July 20-24 in San Jose, California.

Early registration has been extended and now ends June 23.

Use the special discount code 'os09pgm' for an extra 15% off.

For more information:
http://conferences.oreilly.com/oscon
-- 
Aahz (aahz at pythoncraft.com)           <*>         http://www.pythoncraft.com/

"If you don't know what your program is supposed to do, you'd better not
start writing it."  --Dijkstra

From jjinux at gmail.com  Fri Jun 12 04:56:09 2009
From: jjinux at gmail.com (Shannon -jj Behrens)
Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2009 19:56:09 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] Just a quick note on the Plone site
In-Reply-To: <baf0d46b0906091107x479c9628kd4ee215d2d5029e3@mail.gmail.com>
References: <baf0d46b0906091107x479c9628kd4ee215d2d5029e3@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <c41f67b90906111956h787e0e9bwdbc2058d7379239c@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Jun 9, 2009 at 11:07 AM, Donna Snow<donnamsnow at gmail.com> wrote:
> There is a third party product for Plone called Plone4Artists which allows
> you to embed video.
>
> Would it make sense to create a "video" section of the site with all the
> videos Glenn (and former video taking type people) have recorded?
>
> See plone4artists.org
>
> The video objects would point back to the youtube videos already online? (we
> have a channel already right?) We wouldn't have to host the videos on our
> account with webfaction.
>
> Also has anyone started a facebook page or twitter account for baypiggies
> yet?

If you want to play with various Plone things, all I can say is have
fun and thank you for your work.

Best Regards,
-jj

-- 
In this life we cannot do great things. We can only do small things
with great love. -- Mother Teresa
http://jjinux.blogspot.com/

From aahz at pythoncraft.com  Fri Jun 12 06:06:16 2009
From: aahz at pythoncraft.com (Aahz)
Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2009 21:06:16 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] OSCON volunteer winner
Message-ID: <20090612040616.GA9189@panix.com>

We have a winner!  Actually, we had a winner on Monday, I've just been
putting off announcing the winner because I was trying to get some info
from O'Reilly.

Anyway, the winner of the free OSCON registration with ten hours of
volunteering bid is [drumroll, please] Brent Tubbs.  Take a bow, Brent!

But don't worry, there's still plenty of opportunity to volunteer!  If
you'd like to help, please subscribe to the OSCON mailing list:
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies

There are four "exhibit staff" passes for me to hand out, but I'm not
sure what they get you -- I asked whether you get lunch, and O'Reilly
said no.  I'll be handing them out to people who volunteer at least two
hours, but at this point I think it's getting off-topic for BayPIGgies,
so anyone interested in an exhibit staff pass, please sign up for the
mailing list.
-- 
Aahz (aahz at pythoncraft.com)           <*>         http://www.pythoncraft.com/

"Many customs in this life persist because they ease friction and promote
productivity as a result of universal agreement, and whether they are
precisely the optimal choices is much less important." --Henry Spencer

From brent.tubbs at gmail.com  Fri Jun 12 08:05:07 2009
From: brent.tubbs at gmail.com (Brent Tubbs)
Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2009 23:05:07 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] OSCON volunteer winner
In-Reply-To: <20090612040616.GA9189@panix.com>
References: <20090612040616.GA9189@panix.com>
Message-ID: <769bb4300906112305w212d541ahdbedd9f47b7dd347@mail.gmail.com>

Yay!

But are you sure http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies is
the OSCON mailing list?

On Thu, Jun 11, 2009 at 9:06 PM, Aahz<aahz at pythoncraft.com> wrote:
> We have a winner! ?Actually, we had a winner on Monday, I've just been
> putting off announcing the winner because I was trying to get some info
> from O'Reilly.
>
> Anyway, the winner of the free OSCON registration with ten hours of
> volunteering bid is [drumroll, please] Brent Tubbs. ?Take a bow, Brent!
>
> But don't worry, there's still plenty of opportunity to volunteer! ?If
> you'd like to help, please subscribe to the OSCON mailing list:
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies
>
> There are four "exhibit staff" passes for me to hand out, but I'm not
> sure what they get you -- I asked whether you get lunch, and O'Reilly
> said no. ?I'll be handing them out to people who volunteer at least two
> hours, but at this point I think it's getting off-topic for BayPIGgies,
> so anyone interested in an exhibit staff pass, please sign up for the
> mailing list.
> --
> Aahz (aahz at pythoncraft.com) ? ? ? ? ? <*> ? ? ? ? http://www.pythoncraft.com/
>
> "Many customs in this life persist because they ease friction and promote
> productivity as a result of universal agreement, and whether they are
> precisely the optimal choices is much less important." --Henry Spencer
> _______________________________________________
> Baypiggies mailing list
> Baypiggies at python.org
> To change your subscription options or unsubscribe:
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies
>

From aahz at pythoncraft.com  Fri Jun 12 15:09:22 2009
From: aahz at pythoncraft.com (Aahz)
Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2009 06:09:22 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] OSCON volunteer winner
In-Reply-To: <769bb4300906112305w212d541ahdbedd9f47b7dd347@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20090612040616.GA9189@panix.com>
	<769bb4300906112305w212d541ahdbedd9f47b7dd347@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20090612130922.GA13044@panix.com>

On Thu, Jun 11, 2009, Brent Tubbs wrote:
>
> Yay!
> 
> But are you sure http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies is
> the OSCON mailing list?

Oops, that's what I get for multi-tasking!  Of course it should be
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/oscon
-- 
Aahz (aahz at pythoncraft.com)           <*>         http://www.pythoncraft.com/

"Many customs in this life persist because they ease friction and promote
productivity as a result of universal agreement, and whether they are
precisely the optimal choices is much less important." --Henry Spencer

From jjinux at gmail.com  Fri Jun 12 17:47:41 2009
From: jjinux at gmail.com (Shannon -jj Behrens)
Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2009 08:47:41 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] More Female Engineers at BayPiggies and PyCon?
In-Reply-To: <C2FF4AD1-94C9-47FB-9AD0-EC008B4DCBEA@glenjarvis.com>
References: <b8c6f6c40906091124o78700eebo7ffc83f52d362bb7@mail.gmail.com>
	<C2FF4AD1-94C9-47FB-9AD0-EC008B4DCBEA@glenjarvis.com>
Message-ID: <c41f67b90906120847l291c8656jd548f498ae41db63@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Jun 9, 2009 at 9:48 PM, Glen Jarvis<glen at glenjarvis.com> wrote:
> Someone asked, so here are a few ways to encourage it:
> ....
>
> May I add a fourth point?
> Rely heavily on the advice and input from the women we already have in this
> group. Donna's a great resource. However, I know that Alison has been at a
> few BayPIGgies lately, and I'm certain there are others that I'm not
> immediately thinking of. In fact, I'd let them drive this as much as they
> wanted to (if they want to)...
> Cheers,

Anna gave a talk about this at PyCon a few years back.  What's always
amazed me is that the number of female engineers went *down*.  It used
to be much higher.

-jj

-- 
In this life we cannot do great things. We can only do small things
with great love. -- Mother Teresa
http://jjinux.blogspot.com/

From jjinux at gmail.com  Fri Jun 12 17:48:48 2009
From: jjinux at gmail.com (Shannon -jj Behrens)
Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2009 08:48:48 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] Short talk proposal
In-Reply-To: <e337009b0906091223seb9a273ma674683c726788fa@mail.gmail.com>
References: <e337009b0906091223seb9a273ma674683c726788fa@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <c41f67b90906120848k1c07b739te2a4f35c642be9da@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Jun 9, 2009 at 12:23 PM, Sandrine
Ribeau<sandrine.ribeau at gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi guys,
>
> Logilab dit present a talk at Europython this year and I was thinking that
> you might want to have a replay of it during one of the meeting.
> http://www.europython.eu/talks/talk_abstracts/index.html#talk30
>
> I can make it shorter so that it fits in your schedule for july or august.

Is there any chance we can have someone from Logilab give it in person?

-jj

-- 
In this life we cannot do great things. We can only do small things
with great love. -- Mother Teresa
http://jjinux.blogspot.com/

From jjinux at gmail.com  Fri Jun 12 17:52:09 2009
From: jjinux at gmail.com (Shannon -jj Behrens)
Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2009 08:52:09 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] Jim and Alex
In-Reply-To: <55dc209b0906082329w56a8f58aq26ae220cc021aa82@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20090608040844.GA11630@panix.com>
	<1244487610.6311.149.camel@jim-laptop>
	<BA25522C-2F17-4A73-86AD-9C62FEB0F98B@glenjarvis.com>
	<55dc209b0906082329w56a8f58aq26ae220cc021aa82@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <c41f67b90906120852n58f1420aq7856cfe2bae3697c@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Jun 8, 2009 at 11:29 PM, Alex Martelli<aleax at google.com> wrote:
> On Mon, Jun 8, 2009 at 6:36 PM, Glen Jarvis<glen at glenjarvis.com> wrote:
> ? ...
>> I am *very* interested in this talk. This will be very *very* interesting.
>
> Great!
>
>> Alex,
>> ?? ?If you get a chance, can you either give us some slides to preview or
>> send out a "preparation homework?" ?I'd like to have all the background
>> knowledge (e.g., what is Spolsky's Law) personally researched so I can get
>> the *most* out of what you're going to talk about....
>
> If you can follow Italian,
> http://www.viddler.com/explore/zinanni/videos/1/ is the Italian
> version of this presentation (video) and
> http://www.aleax.it/itpyc_abst.pdf the PDF with the slides from it.
> http://www.aleax.it/pycon_abst.pdf are the slides for the shorter,
> rougher version I did at Pycon 2009,
> http://defcraft.blogspot.com/2009/04/notes-from-alex-martellis-talk-pycon.html
> are sriram's notes from it... video's somewhere on blip.tv but I can't
> find it right now (Anna? help?).
>
> The Baypiggies presentation is the penultimate try-out to the final
> episode where I'll be presenting this very subject at OSCON'09 in San
> Jose in July.
>
> Suggested readings for those who want to prep, besides Spolsky,
> Attwood and Fried, include Korzibsky (General Semantics), the Book of
> Five Rings, D. Knuth, and all of the sources of the open-source SDK
> for Google App Engine, at code.google.com. ?Even if you can't make it
> to the talk, reading through this material can't help prompting your
> growth;-).

Thanks Alex,

So all we need to do to be fully prepared for your talk is read all of
Donald Knuth's work?  I might give that a shot this weekend ;)

-jj

-- 
In this life we cannot do great things. We can only do small things
with great love. -- Mother Teresa
http://jjinux.blogspot.com/

From sandrine.ribeau at gmail.com  Fri Jun 12 18:03:47 2009
From: sandrine.ribeau at gmail.com (Sandrine Ribeau)
Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2009 09:03:47 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] Short talk proposal
In-Reply-To: <c41f67b90906120848k1c07b739te2a4f35c642be9da@mail.gmail.com>
References: <e337009b0906091223seb9a273ma674683c726788fa@mail.gmail.com>
	<c41f67b90906120848k1c07b739te2a4f35c642be9da@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <e337009b0906120903t2f19423cqdd0b134ecb43a3d5@mail.gmail.com>

Hi Shannon,

I work for Logilab, so I am from Logilab.

Sandrine.

On Fri, Jun 12, 2009 at 8:48 AM, Shannon -jj Behrens <jjinux at gmail.com>wrote:

> On Tue, Jun 9, 2009 at 12:23 PM, Sandrine
> Ribeau<sandrine.ribeau at gmail.com> wrote:
> > Hi guys,
> >
> > Logilab dit present a talk at Europython this year and I was thinking
> that
> > you might want to have a replay of it during one of the meeting.
> > http://www.europython.eu/talks/talk_abstracts/index.html#talk30
> >
> > I can make it shorter so that it fits in your schedule for july or
> august.
>
> Is there any chance we can have someone from Logilab give it in person?
>
> -jj
>
> --
> In this life we cannot do great things. We can only do small things
> with great love. -- Mother Teresa
> http://jjinux.blogspot.com/
>
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From jjinux at gmail.com  Fri Jun 12 18:06:06 2009
From: jjinux at gmail.com (Shannon -jj Behrens)
Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2009 09:06:06 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] Short talk proposal
In-Reply-To: <e337009b0906120903t2f19423cqdd0b134ecb43a3d5@mail.gmail.com>
References: <e337009b0906091223seb9a273ma674683c726788fa@mail.gmail.com>
	<c41f67b90906120848k1c07b739te2a4f35c642be9da@mail.gmail.com>
	<e337009b0906120903t2f19423cqdd0b134ecb43a3d5@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <c41f67b90906120906o2b6a37dclc6bed9a4043ad828@mail.gmail.com>

Sorry, you said "replay", so I thought you were saying we should play
the video.  If you want to give the talk live, that's cool by me :)

-jj

On Fri, Jun 12, 2009 at 9:03 AM, Sandrine
Ribeau<sandrine.ribeau at gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi Shannon,
>
> I work for Logilab, so I am from Logilab.
>
> Sandrine.
>
> On Fri, Jun 12, 2009 at 8:48 AM, Shannon -jj Behrens <jjinux at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>>
>> On Tue, Jun 9, 2009 at 12:23 PM, Sandrine
>> Ribeau<sandrine.ribeau at gmail.com> wrote:
>> > Hi guys,
>> >
>> > Logilab dit present a talk at Europython this year and I was thinking
>> > that
>> > you might want to have a replay of it during one of the meeting.
>> > http://www.europython.eu/talks/talk_abstracts/index.html#talk30
>> >
>> > I can make it shorter so that it fits in your schedule for july or
>> > august.
>>
>> Is there any chance we can have someone from Logilab give it in person?
>>
>> -jj
>>
>> --
>> In this life we cannot do great things. We can only do small things
>> with great love. -- Mother Teresa
>> http://jjinux.blogspot.com/
>
>



-- 
In this life we cannot do great things. We can only do small things
with great love. -- Mother Teresa
http://jjinux.blogspot.com/

From aleax at google.com  Fri Jun 12 20:07:57 2009
From: aleax at google.com (Alex Martelli)
Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2009 11:07:57 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] Jim and Alex
In-Reply-To: <c41f67b90906120852n58f1420aq7856cfe2bae3697c@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20090608040844.GA11630@panix.com>
	<1244487610.6311.149.camel@jim-laptop>
	<BA25522C-2F17-4A73-86AD-9C62FEB0F98B@glenjarvis.com>
	<55dc209b0906082329w56a8f58aq26ae220cc021aa82@mail.gmail.com>
	<c41f67b90906120852n58f1420aq7856cfe2bae3697c@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <55dc209b0906121107j688452ebx862d06ca59400cbb@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Jun 12, 2009 at 8:52 AM, Shannon -jj Behrens<jjinux at gmail.com> wrote:
   ...
>> Suggested readings for those who want to prep, besides Spolsky,
>> Attwood and Fried, include Korzibsky (General Semantics), the Book of
>> Five Rings, D. Knuth, and all of the sources of the open-source SDK
>> for Google App Engine, at code.google.com. ?Even if you can't make it
>> to the talk, reading through this material can't help prompting your
>> growth;-).
>
> Thanks Alex,
>
> So all we need to do to be fully prepared for your talk is read all of
> Donald Knuth's work? ?I might give that a shot this weekend ;)

Knuth ain't quite enough -- Korzibsky &c, and the GAE SDK's sources,
are also very advisable;-).


Alex

From echerlin at gmail.com  Fri Jun 12 20:41:52 2009
From: echerlin at gmail.com (Edward Cherlin)
Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2009 11:41:52 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] Short talk on Python in Sugar
Message-ID: <e574f6eb0906121141s447c6596g7bdbcd2d8b6360b1@mail.gmail.com>

I would like to give a demo of the programmable tiles in Turtle Art,
as a means to introduce Python programming in schools. Users can enter
Python expressions into one kind of tile inside Turtle Art, or call
external Python code using another tile. The Pippy Python environment
supports small Python projects. A full Python IDE for Sugar is
planned.

http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Activities/Turtle_Art#Programmable_Brick
http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Activities/Turtle_Art/Sensors

Turtle Art 51, which includes these capabilities, is included in Sugar
on a Stick. SoaS runs on any x86 computer that can boot from USB,
including Macintoshes.

http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Sugar_on_a_Stick

Later on, when we have a grade-school curriculum in Python programming
worked out with these and other tools, I would like to give a
full-length talk.
-- 
Silent Thunder (??/???????????????/????????????? ?) is my name
And Children are my nation.
The Cosmos is my dwelling place, The Truth my destination.
http://earthtreasury.org/worknet (Edward Mokurai Cherlin)

From bsergean at gmail.com  Fri Jun 12 21:28:22 2009
From: bsergean at gmail.com (Benjamin Sergeant)
Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2009 12:28:22 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] GIL for dummies
Message-ID: <1621f9fa0906121228w193f8a40y6bcaaba502c19311@mail.gmail.com>

I found that on reddit this morning, and it's very interesting for
people like me who followed the GIL heated debates without really
understanding a single bit ... the paper is very clear and based on
one CPU bound program that perform (way) better in a single thread
than in two threads (on a MacBook probably with 2 cores).

http://www.dabeaz.com/python/GIL.pdf

Cheers,
- Benjamin

From aahz at pythoncraft.com  Fri Jun 12 22:09:25 2009
From: aahz at pythoncraft.com (Aahz)
Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2009 13:09:25 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] GIL for dummies
In-Reply-To: <1621f9fa0906121228w193f8a40y6bcaaba502c19311@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1621f9fa0906121228w193f8a40y6bcaaba502c19311@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20090612200925.GA27514@panix.com>

On Fri, Jun 12, 2009, Benjamin Sergeant wrote:
>
> I found that on reddit this morning, and it's very interesting for
> people like me who followed the GIL heated debates without really
> understanding a single bit ... the paper is very clear and based on
> one CPU bound program that perform (way) better in a single thread
> than in two threads (on a MacBook probably with 2 cores).
> 
> http://www.dabeaz.com/python/GIL.pdf

This is a good resource, but keep in mind that it's explaining why the
GIL has problems with CPU-bound threads rather than talking about
productive ways to write threaded programs in Python.
-- 
Aahz (aahz at pythoncraft.com)           <*>         http://www.pythoncraft.com/

"Many customs in this life persist because they ease friction and promote
productivity as a result of universal agreement, and whether they are
precisely the optimal choices is much less important." --Henry Spencer

From jjinux at gmail.com  Fri Jun 12 23:34:07 2009
From: jjinux at gmail.com (Shannon -jj Behrens)
Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2009 14:34:07 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] GIL for dummies
In-Reply-To: <20090612200925.GA27514@panix.com>
References: <1621f9fa0906121228w193f8a40y6bcaaba502c19311@mail.gmail.com>
	<20090612200925.GA27514@panix.com>
Message-ID: <c41f67b90906121434kde01263we43b1823d3264ae1@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Jun 12, 2009 at 1:09 PM, Aahz<aahz at pythoncraft.com> wrote:
> On Fri, Jun 12, 2009, Benjamin Sergeant wrote:
>>
>> I found that on reddit this morning, and it's very interesting for
>> people like me who followed the GIL heated debates without really
>> understanding a single bit ... the paper is very clear and based on
>> one CPU bound program that perform (way) better in a single thread
>> than in two threads (on a MacBook probably with 2 cores).
>>
>> http://www.dabeaz.com/python/GIL.pdf
>
> This is a good resource, but keep in mind that it's explaining why the
> GIL has problems with CPU-bound threads rather than talking about
> productive ways to write threaded programs in Python.

If you're CPU bound, you can switch to using process pools, perhaps
with the processing module.  If you have some CPU intensive section
that you can translate to C, you may be able to release the GIL in C
before entering that section.

I wrote about such things here: http://www.ddj.com/linux-open-source/206103078

Aahz talked about the GIL here:
http://www.pyzine.com/Issue001/Section_Articles/article_ThreadingGlobalInterpreter.html

At the risk of wandering off topic, I was amazed to see that Scala
lets you use multiple cores, supports Erlang-style concurrency, and
performs far better than Python on a lot of benchmarks.  I'm going to
keep coding Python everywhere I can, but I'll probably think about
using Scala for a certain class of problems.

Happy Hacking!
-jj

-- 
In this life we cannot do great things. We can only do small things
with great love. -- Mother Teresa
http://jjinux.blogspot.com/

From jeff at drinktomi.com  Fri Jun 12 23:42:54 2009
From: jeff at drinktomi.com (Jeff Younker)
Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2009 14:42:54 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] GIL for dummies
In-Reply-To: <c41f67b90906121434kde01263we43b1823d3264ae1@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1621f9fa0906121228w193f8a40y6bcaaba502c19311@mail.gmail.com>
	<20090612200925.GA27514@panix.com>
	<c41f67b90906121434kde01263we43b1823d3264ae1@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <44BD6759-622D-4B5F-9BDA-ED4D143C1BFA@drinktomi.com>

On Jun 12, 2009, at 2:34 PM, Shannon -jj Behrens wrote:

> At the risk of wandering off topic, I was amazed to see that Scala
> lets you use multiple cores, supports Erlang-style concurrency, and
> performs far better than Python on a lot of benchmarks.  I'm going to
> keep coding Python everywhere I can, but I'll probably think about
> using Scala for a certain class of problems.

Yeah, I'm thrilled to see that Scala is starting to get some  
traction.  Static
typing and type inference in a unified functional-object oriented  
language
just rocks.  Plus it exclusively targets the JVM you get full  
interoperability
will Java and access to all of its tools and libraries.

It's kind of like Geiger's Alien has just invaded that Java ecology.

-jeff

From alecf at flett.org  Sat Jun 13 01:55:03 2009
From: alecf at flett.org (Alec Flett)
Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2009 16:55:03 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] GIL for dummies
In-Reply-To: <1621f9fa0906121228w193f8a40y6bcaaba502c19311@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1621f9fa0906121228w193f8a40y6bcaaba502c19311@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <c78d65270906121655j5f7f3d3fmc27c0d9f0748d987@mail.gmail.com>

Well inspite of all the "this talk is not about.." - I still found this to
be tremendously helpful in understanding python behavior in a multi-core
world.
Sure, we all prefer message passing, blah blah blah, but for a lot of web
services when you're running a whole stack of forked python interpreters to
maintain some degree of parallism every once in a while you ask yourself
"where did all my memory go?" because each process is taking 30-100 Megs,
and you start to wonder "what would I get from threads?"

The last bit about GIL contention on multi-core machines is pretty
interesting too - I'm not much into systems stuff, but I really wonder if
there's room for improvement there.

Alec

On Fri, Jun 12, 2009 at 12:28 PM, Benjamin Sergeant <bsergean at gmail.com>wrote:

> http://www.dabeaz.com/python/GIL.pdf
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From slander at unworkable.org  Mon Jun 15 18:48:44 2009
From: slander at unworkable.org (Harry Tormey)
Date: Mon, 15 Jun 2009 09:48:44 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] PyGameSF meetup Wednesday June 17th 6pm @ Main San
	Francisco	Public Library
Message-ID: <20090615164844.GB11124@unworkable.org>

Hi All,
The June PyGameSF meet up will be at the STONG conference room on the
first floor of the main San Francisco public library beside civic
center BART. The library closes at 8pm so we will reconvene to frjtz
on hayes street for dinner/drinks afterwords.This month's
presentations are:


* Bret Truchan (Quotile/GlitchDS/Glitch-Sequencer): Exploring musical interfaces using Processing/OSC/Chuck. 
  Bret will unveil a new,open source software .synth. written in Processing and Chuck, and briefly discuss 
  the architecture. He will also present some Processing code samples for drawing simple graphics, sending 
  MIDI notes, sending OSC (Open Sound Control) messages, and handling timing. The presentation will be tailored 
  to the beginning or intermediate developer who hasn't been exposed to Processing or Chuck.

* Mitch Patenaude: How to confuse people and make enemies on Twitter. Mitch will give talk about what was involved 
  in creating his markov chain based babbling TwitterBot. You can follow her or read her tweets here (http://twitter.com/sharonmarkov).

PyGame SF is an informal group meet up in San Francisco for Software
engineers interested in python, OpenGL, audio, pygame, SDL,
programming and generally anything to do with multimedia development.
The format of our meetings typically involve several people giving
presentations on projects they are developing followed by group
discussion and feedback.

If anyone else would like to give a micro presentation, show demos or
just talk about what they are doing or generally give examples of any
relevant software they are working on please feel free to head along

To subscribe to the pygamesf mailing list simply email
pygame-sf+subscribe at unworkable.org


-- 
Harry Tormey
Co Founder P2P Research
http://p2presearch.com
Founder PyGameSF
http://pygamesf.org
Software Engineer Digidesign
http://digidesign.com


From bdbaddog at gmail.com  Tue Jun 16 03:38:27 2009
From: bdbaddog at gmail.com (William Deegan)
Date: Mon, 15 Jun 2009 18:38:27 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] Overdue book reviews.. (Don't make me get my ruler
	out) :)
Message-ID: <8540148a0906151838h415f568codc4d4c30ec329d97@mail.gmail.com>

Greetings,

First off, let me thank Tony Capellini for his ongoing efforts at building
(and maintaining) relationships with many technical publishers so that
members of Baypiggies can get free books for review.

As you may know, they provide these books with an expectation that in return
there will be (somewhere on the web) a published review within some
reasonable time frame. ( A few months or thereabouts I believe)

By and large, most books received by Baypiggies members are reviewed and
published on Baypiggies.net (by yours truly) and all is good with the world.

However, some folks due to various reasons (got too busy, can't find the
book, forgot they had the book, the dog ate it, etc), are overdue with their
reviews.
If you fall among this group, and don't expect to be able to review the book
(and know where it is), in the near future, please contact Tony (and I) to
let him know and make arrangements to return the book and/or deliver it to
another Baypiggie member who might enjoy (and have time to) review said
book.

Currently, we have 9 deliquent reviews (Please contact me if you've sent a
review and I've forgotten to either publish it, or remove it from the
overdue list).

The list of overdue books and their reviewers can be found here:
http://www.baypiggies.net/index_html/user-group-association-program/BookReviews/SimpleBlogCatSearch?category=overdue

The book review doesn't have to be 1000 words and scholarly written, a few
paragraphs would be better than none at all.

Thanks for taking the time to read this message!

-Bill Deegan
(Humble maintainer of baypiggies.net)
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From aahz at pythoncraft.com  Tue Jun 16 21:37:32 2009
From: aahz at pythoncraft.com (Aahz)
Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2009 12:37:32 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] Free CS text
Message-ID: <20090616193732.GA5198@panix.com>

Mentioned on c.l.py, _Algorithms and Complexity_:

http://www.math.upenn.edu/~wilf/AlgComp3.html
-- 
Aahz (aahz at pythoncraft.com)           <*>         http://www.pythoncraft.com/

"Many customs in this life persist because they ease friction and promote
productivity as a result of universal agreement, and whether they are
precisely the optimal choices is much less important." --Henry Spencer

From avner at boxee.tv  Thu Jun 18 14:24:13 2009
From: avner at boxee.tv (avner ronen)
Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2009 08:24:13 -0400
Subject: [Baypiggies] see you in San Francisco on June 23rd?
Message-ID: <f2586d5f0906180524u7d120054k95849bf832ca0245@mail.gmail.com>

i apologize for the impersonal email, but i wanted to get the word out.

we have a boxee event in San Francisco next week (June 23rd at 7pm).
if you happen to be in town it would be great to see you there. there
are more than 600 people who RSVPd, we have exciting announcements to
make, an award ceremony, and in general it should be lots of fun.

you can RSVP here http://boxeedev.eventbrite.com and tell your friends
to come, too :)

avner ronen
http://twitter.com/avneron
http://twitter.com/boxee
http://blog.boxee.tv

From rocky at teampatent.com  Fri Jun 19 01:23:48 2009
From: rocky at teampatent.com (Rocky Kahn)
Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2009 16:23:48 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] Back-end Lead Developer @ TeamPatent (Alameda)
Message-ID: <5e7dca810906181623v5c541273r304f516bdd65a291@mail.gmail.com>

We're looking for a Back-end Lead developer. This position is
full-time (with a startup ethos) and on-site in Alameda (10min bike
from Fruitvale BART).

* Requirements:
   * Demonstrated expert in a server-side language
   * Experience with databases in both design and access methodology;
   * Produce elegant, maintainable code;
   * Easy to get along with, fun, ethical, and low-maintenance; and
   * Intensely driven, proactive, and hard-working.
* Desirable:
   * Demonstrated Python expert;
   * Open-source contributions; and
   * Experience planning network operations.
* Environment and Compensation:
   * Full-time, on-site;
   * Ground floor opportunity with competitive compensation including
significant equity;
   * Technical leadership at an early stage startup aiming to shake up
a valuable market; and
   * Flexible work environment focused on productivity.

TeamPatent, an innovative National Science Foundation-funded startup,
is looking for an expert back-end web engineer to take a leadership
position building our document management engine. This may sound
straightforward, but it turns out that what we're doing is
ground-breaking research--the National Science Foundation describes
our technology as "game changing". We've recently launched a beta and
have enough funding to take us through this dismal economy.

We're building a high-performance, browser-based word processor with
an integrated drawing editor. It provides responsive web-standard
collaboration for large, multimedia documents... imagine Google Wave
"blips" that directly manipulate DOM and SVG-coordinate documents.
We're first applying our editor to drafting patent applications--a
highly-constrained, high-value niche in which we have technical and
market expertise.  A patent application is our society's most refined
format for expressing an innovation--it's a scientific paper that's
required to disclose a preferred technical approach in intimate
detail, wherein the text refers to a hundred or so details in
associated drawings.  However, they're difficult to prepare
(especially keeping references synchronized between the text and
drawings) and to read (most patent professionals print them out and
read them with the drawings side-by-side with the text).  TeamPatent
allows inventors to more easily write much of the application
themselves and hire professionals just for the legalize.  Associating
part references in the text with callouts in the drawings allows these
documents to be more easily read on-line.  Longer-term, these editing
and browsing technologies can become the basis for a new type of
general word processor that could be an important part of the future
of Office 2.0.

Strong candidates will have previously led architectural design and
implementation of a data-driven web application, preferably in a
smaller company or team where you had to wear many hats. You'll be
working in Python and other open-source tools including SQLAlchemy and
PostgreSQL as you refine our document versioning engine and deployment
system on Linux-based Amazon EC2 instances.

As a member of TeamPatent, you'll help contribute to open source--we
already maintain two of the largest widgets in Dojo--dijit.Editor &
dojox.Sketch--and, with your involvement, we hope to contribute facets
of our backend infrastructure. TeamPatent holds the potential to be a
career-making project with enormous intellectual scope and market
potential. We're smart, creative, and open to new ideas...join us!

Applicants should register and try our software at teampatent.com
before submitting a resume and an explanation of why you'd be a good
fit to Rocky, the CEO, at jobs at teampatent.com.

From john_re at fastmail.us  Sat Jun 20 07:58:26 2009
From: john_re at fastmail.us (john_re)
Date: Fri, 19 Jun 2009 22:58:26 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] Join Python Global Meeting Sunday June 21 using VOIP -
	BerkeleyTIP
Message-ID: <1245477506.11282.1321301657@webmail.messagingengine.com>

Join the friendly Python Global [& ALL FREE SW HW & CULTURE]
community Meeting:
this Sunday, June 21, using VOIP,
10A - 6P Pacific USA time [GMT - 8? 7? hours] =
 1P - 9P Eastern USA = 
 6P - 2A??? GMT  - Daylight savings correction? +7 hours?

at the BerkeleyTIP Global Free SW HW & Culture meeting
http://sites.google.com/site/berkeleytip/

CONNECT VIA VOIP (& IRC):
Join IRC channel #berkeleytip on freenode.net,
& we'll help get you connected on VOIP.
Have a VOIP headset.
http://sites.google.com/site/berkeleytip/remote-attendance

LOCAL MEETING NEW LOCATION:
Free speech cafe closed Sundays in summer.  Watch the BTIP local list for final in person UCB meeting location details:
http://groups.google.com/group/BerkTIP

GENERIC HOURLY SCHEDULE, &
MARK YOUR CALENDAR - NEXT 3 MEETINGS:
Sun June 21, Sat July 4, Sun July 19
http://sites.google.com/site/berkeleytip/schedule

Join the mailing list, introduce yourself, tell us what projects you are interested in, invite others to join your project:
BTIP-Global
http://groups.google.com/group/BerkTIPGlobal

=====
HOT TOPICs:
Oracle owns OpenOffice & MySQL - What help is needed?
KDE 4 aps need work - especially Calendar?!
Open Hardware - Robotics?
POLL:  ** How about 2x per month Weekday Evening BTIP-Global Meetings? **
  1) The Wednesday & Thursday _after_ the BTIP weekend meetings?
  2) The Monday & Tuesday _before_ the BTIP weekend meetings?
  3) Other? Your suggestions? 
 - Join the mailing list & send in your opinions/thoughts/suggestions.

GROUP PROJECT - Asterisk VOIP conference server:
We've now got our own Asterisk VOIP conference server. 
[Thanks, Windsor & Jack!  :)  ]
Help:
 - get a user channel members status page working
 - get SIP & Skype ability?
http://sites.google.com/site/berkeleytip/remote-attendance


YOUR PROJECT - LET US KNOW, GET SOME VOLUNTEER HELP:
http://groups.google.com/group/BerkTIPGlobal


VIDEOS - OPPORTUNITY - FINDER VOLUNTEER NEEDED
No videos this month, cause David & I are too busy.  Do you want to find some for us all to watch?  Check out this link, email the list & let us know you'd like to volunteer. :)
http://sites.google.com/site/berkeleytip/talk-videos

See the mailing lists for the latest info/changes:
http://sites.google.com/site/berkeleytip/mailing-lists

JOIN THE ANNOUNCEMENT LIST - 1 or 2 announcements per month:
http://groups.google.com/group/BerkTIPAnc


FOR FORWARDING:
You are invited to forward this message to anywhere appropriate.

From niallo at unworkable.org  Sun Jun 21 20:24:47 2009
From: niallo at unworkable.org (Niall O'Higgins)
Date: Sun, 21 Jun 2009 11:24:47 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] PyWebSF #1: 6pm, June 23rd 2009, Stong room,
	SF Main Public Library
Message-ID: <20090621182447.GY16513@unworkable.org>

Hi folks,

I have confirmed the venue, time and speaker lineup for this month's PyWebSF
meet!

PyWebSF is a Python meet-up with a strong focus on Web technology. From
frameworks like WSGI/Pylons/TurboGears/Django to libraries like httplib2 to
using emerging Web technologies like Amazon's AWS and Freebase - its all
covered.

The emphasis is on practical, hands-on lectures and discussion. Meetings start
with one or two 10-20 minute presentations and end with informal discussion.
Hackathon-style collaboration and project demos are encouraged.

Who/What
--------

* Shannon -jj Behrens - "Techniques for Building Third-party RESTful Web Services"

* Marius A. Eriksen - "GeoDjango: Introduction and demos"

When
----

6pm, Tuesday, 23rd June 2009.  Please try to arrive on time to avoid
disappointment.  We have space for around 10-20 people.

Where
-----

Stong conference room, 1st floor, SF Main Public Library.
Map: http://tinyurl.com/pywebsfmap

The library is easily accessible via both BART and Muni at the Civic Center
station.  The library closes at 8pm so we will continue the discussion over
food/drinks at Frjtz Fries [http://www.frjtzfries.com].

More info
---------

See http://www.pywebsf.org/

Thanks!

-- 
Niall O'Higgins
PyWebSF
http://pywebsf.org
http://niallohiggins.com

From jim at well.com  Mon Jun 22 23:41:06 2009
From: jim at well.com (jim)
Date: Mon, 22 Jun 2009 14:41:06 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] BayPIGgies meeting Thursday June 25, 2009: Abstraction
Message-ID: <1245706866.6649.578.camel@jim-laptop>


BayPIGgies meeting Thursday June 25, 2009: Abstraction    

NOTE BayPIGgies meets at the Symantec Vcafe, 
at Symantec's location at 350 Ellis Street in Mountain View. 
http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?oe=utf-8&client=firefox-a&ie=UTF8&fb=1&split=1&gl=us&ei=w6i_Sfr6MZmQsQOzlv0v&hl=en&t=h&msa=0&msid=116202735295394761637.00046550c09ff3d96bff1&ll=37.397693,-122.053707&spn=0.002902,0.004828&z=18

Tonight's talk is 
* Abstraction 
by Alex Martelli  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alex_Martelli 


Meetings start with a Newbie Nugget, a short discussion of an 
essential Python feature, specially for those new to Python. 
Tonight's Newbie Nugget: None 


LOCATION 
Symantec Corporation
Symantec Vcafe
350 Ellis Street
Mountain View, CA 94043

BayPIGgies meeting information is available at 
http://baypiggies.net/new/plone



------------------------ Agenda ------------------------
 
..... 7:30 PM ...........................
General hubbub, inventory end-of-meeting announcements, 
any first-minute announcements. 


..... 7:35 PM to 7:35 PM ................

Newbie Nugget: none  


..... 7:35 PM to 8:55 PM ................

Abstraction 
by Alex Martelli  

Abstraction is a powerful servant, but a dangerous master. We code,
design, think, debug ... on a tower of abstractions. Spolsky's Law
tells us that "All abstractions leak". This talk explores why they
leak, why that's often a problem, what to do about it; I also cover
why sometimes abstractions SHOULD "leak", and how best to produce 
and consume abstraction layers.


..... 8:55 PM to 9:20 PM  ................
Mapping and Random Access

Mapping is a rapid-fire audience announcement of topics 
the announcers are interested in. 

Random Access follows immediately to allow follow up 
individually on the announcements and other topics of 
interest.



From john_re at fastmail.us  Tue Jun 23 09:11:18 2009
From: john_re at fastmail.us (john_re)
Date: Tue, 23 Jun 2009 00:11:18 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] July 4 - VOLUNTEERS FOR Berkeley MARINA FAIR Python
 BerkeleyTIP BOOTH? RSVP %!
Message-ID: <1245741078.23315.1321705565@webmail.messagingengine.com>

This is an announcement, & request for RSVP, about a possible "sponsored by BerkeleyTIP" Python or Free SW HW or Culture or GNU(Linux) event.  :)

==
Hi Everyone - Would you be interested in helping out for an hour at a booth to demo any Free SW HW or Culture or GNU(Linux) at the July 4 fair at the Berkeley Marina?  Free, fun for the whole family, & fireworks included.  :)

Below is the message I just sent to the BTIP list to gauge interest & volunteer level.  If you'd be interested, please probabilistic RSVP (explained below) to either me or one of the BTIP lists.  You can email the BTIP lists directly even if you aren't subscribed, & we'll forward the message through.  You can also subscribe to the lists.  :)

Maybe you can reply on this list, & people can get a carpool together to drive to Berkeley. :)  Prepend "Carpool" to the subject line.

Global mailing list - for everyone interested in BTIP
http://groups.google.com/group/BerkTIPGlobal
  BerkTIPGlobal at googlegroups.com

Local list - pertaining to "in Berkeley" info
http://groups.google.com/group/BerkTIP
  BerkTIP at googlegroups.com

Website:
http://sites.google.com/site/berkeleytip/

=====================================================================
=====  Message sent to the BTIP list:

July 4 is next meeting. No holiday for BTIP on the US holiday!  :)

How about having the July 4 BTIP meeting & a booth at the "4TH OF JULY @ Berkeley Marina"?  See below for the details.

=====  First, the message as I started out writing it:

So, I'm wondering about particulars for the meeting, both locally & globally (or at least USA nationally).

David said he thought attendance might be very small due to the holiday.  Perhaps.  But, it could conceivably be the same or larger.

BTIP could use the occasion to have our first potluck party.  We could invite people from all over to come by for a special event, ala the Linux Picnic, held annually at Sunnyvale Baylands park (IIRC) in August.

We could even hold the event not on the campus, but at the Berkeley Marina.  The Marina (boats & fishing off the pier) has a big (5-50 acres?) grassy park, where kite flying is a big activity (& a guy has a business selling all kinds of kites there.  In fact, later in july is the International Kite Flying Competition at the marina).  I think sailboarders start out from there too.

For a number of years, the city of Berkeley has held a kinda free fair there on July 4, with booths for food, & displays, & rides, & all that fair kind of stuff, & fireworks in the evening.

I just realized, perhaps BTIP could make a booth there (if it's not too late to register for one) & do GNU(Linux) demos for the community.

The event/marina is right near the Berkeley Caltrain station, & BART & Buses & Cars & Bikes are all ways to get there.


===== OK, I checked it out, & it might be possible to have a booth there.
http://www.anotherbullwinkelshow.com/4th-of-july/4th-of-july.html

http://www.anotherbullwinkelshow.com/4th-of-july/press-4th/PR-4th-Free-NP-Booth.html
Re: 4th of July @ the Berkeley Marina 2009
PRESS RELEASE
FREE BOOTH SPACE FOR ORGANIZATIONS
AT 4TH OF JULY @ THE BERKELEY MARINA

A free 10x10 booth space for non-profit organizations distributing information only is available at the 4th of July celebration at the Berkeley Marina. Please send an email to moose1 (at) anotherbullwinkelshow.com for an application or call 510.548.5335.

Attendance estimate from 5000 at Noon to 120,000 at 930 PM  (john_re comment: I'm doubting 100K people show up!  Maybe that many do???  I'd guess 10-30K?)


===== So, this seems like it might be an interesting/fun/educational/productive idea.

So, we've got 11 days  -
CAN WE GET SOME VOLUNTEERS TO DO GNU(LINUX) OR BSD DEMOS AT A BOOTH?

Once again, my almost favorite thing about BTIP:
  - PROBABILISTIC RSVP's!!! :)


=====  PLEASE PROBABILISTIC RSVP % IF YOU CAN VOLUNTEER JULY 4

Please REPLY TO THIS MESSAGE RIGHT NOW with a probabilistic RSVP to me, or this list, if there is a 50% or greater chance you think you'll attend this meeting physically at the Berkeley Marina, & help volunteer for 1 hour (or more) at a BTIP booth there.  Thanks.  :)

Probabilistic RSVP concept / percent correspondence:
 50% = Possibly
 75% = Likely
100% = Definitely

Please prepend your probability # to the Subject line. Ex:
"75% RSVP July 4 - VOLUNTEERS FOR Berkeley MARINA FAIR GNU(Linux) BTIP BOOTH?"

Note: RSVPing isn't _necessary_ for you to attend - it _is_ _very_helpful_ for planning.  :)   If you haven't RSVP'd by the event, please _do_ come.  Thanks. :)


=====  If I get a few high probabilities quickly I'll make it the official meeting, & we can make a signup sheet for 1's or more hours at the table, as a web page on the BTIP site.


=====  Here's a pdf about tables at the event.  It is for nonprofit "vendors".  We have nothing to sell, so the vending aspect (such as fee) doesn't apply to us, but it has useful info such as about the tables, stuff to bring, etc.

Non-profit vendor application (pdf)
http://www.anotherbullwinkelshow.com/4th-of-july/4th-vendor/App-Non-Profit.pdf
http://www.anotherbullwinkelshow.com/vendors.html


======  Berkeley 4th of July Free Fair at Marina
http://www.anotherbullwinkelshow.com/4th-of-july/4th-of-july.html

The 4th of July is a great day to have a lot of fun. The biggest party is on the South Shore of the Berkeley Marina from noon-10PM. There?s music, dancers, jugglers all for free! Adventure Playground, always a favorite, is open 11am-8pm. Sign up for an old-fashioned sack race, create a nature sculpture with environmental artist Zach Pine, or get your face painted. Try the giant slide or splash in the water at the beach!

There?s live entertainment from noon until 9PM on the main stage including MotorDude Zydeco, Suhaila Bellydance Company, Mo?Fone, and guitarist Steven Gary. Other entertainers around the marina include Tropical Sounds Steel Drums, UCA Capoeira, Failure to Disperse, Afro Cuban Rumba Drumming, Fred Anderson Comedy Explosion, and Coventry & Kaluza Clowns. There?s art & craft booths, massages, free sailboat rides from 1-4pm, dragon boat rides from 2-6pm, and muchmore including the grand fireworks off the end of the Berkeley Pier at 9:30pm.

Let?s hear it for the red, white, and blue
but keep it green, too. The party shouldn?t leave the environment trashed. If you can, bring your own dishes ? Frisbees double as plates! A bandana is your cloth napkin to use at all of the international food booths. With water stations located around the event, you can refill your own reusable bottle and keep a lot of plastic out of the landfill. Be sure to use the recycling stations located throughout the marina for your disposables.

Ride your bike over the Berkeley Bicycle Overpass and park for free near Adventure Playground, courtesy of the East Bay Bicycle Coalition. Or take Caltrain, or take AC Transit from the Downtown Berkeley BART station. To leave on AC Transit, walk out over the freeway overpass after the fireworks to University and 5th St.

Free admission. Alcohol-free event. Free valet bicycle parking. No cars after 7pm.

Sponsored by the City of Berkeley. City of Berkeley
Produced by Another Bullwinkel Show


=====  SOME ACTIVITIES TO DO IN BERKELEY:
http://www.anotherbullwinkelshow.com/4th-of-july/4th-entertainment.html

http://www.visitberkeley.com/
http://www.visitberkeley.com/calendar.cfm#July%202009
http://www.visitberkeley.com/things_to_do.cfm


=====
http://www.anotherbullwinkelshow.com/about.html
Another Bullwinkel Show :: Events Management :: East Bay
About Another Bullwinkel Show

We put on real Badenov events, business socials, theme parties, picnics, parades, and even street festivals. We?ve got the scoop on the local scene, where to go and what to do -- real Mr. Know-It-Alls. We promise to Do-Right by you!

Yes, my real last name is Bullwinkel! It?s been a ton of fun my whole life and I bring that along to any event that I produce. I?ve been throwing parties since I was a kid ? ours was the house where all of the parties happened in town, until our pool caved in from too many people doing cannonballs off the side one night!

It is not a fractured fairy tale that I was a professional ballerina for many years. So I bring an artistic sensibility to every event I produce. My biggest thrill is providing a format so your guests can be creative in a way they never thought possible. This makes my events a big hit! And memorable!

I can help you market your business district, even if it is in Moosylvania! I have a background in community and economic development from my time as the Executive Director of a large merchant association in Berkeley and Albany, CA. There, I installed a Business Improvement District and built the Solano Avenue Stroll, the East Bay?s largest street festival. The Stroll was designated a National Local Legacy and is housed in the Library of Congress. I've produced lots of other events, including the 4th of July for the City of Berkeley complete with fireworks.

If you?re a non-profit organization, I can pull a rabbit out of my hat to help you fundraise. I even have mailing labels for sale with over 900 local businesses and restaurants plus museums and attractions statewide, or lists of local VIPS to invite to your events, or press lists for your media needs.

So even if your name isn?t Rocky, give a call
 make that a moose call so we can really hear it!
Lisa Bullwinkel
Hoopla Coordinator
Another Bullwinkel Show


=====  Comments, questions, RSVPs?
Please reply to me, john_re at the sending email for this announcement, or to the BTIP lists.  Thanks. :)

From glen at glenjarvis.com  Thu Jun 25 21:46:26 2009
From: glen at glenjarvis.com (Glen Jarvis)
Date: Thu, 25 Jun 2009 12:46:26 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] BayPIGgies on Twitter
In-Reply-To: <fbf2758a0906091202y2e175a8cv8ee15af8d2a792eb@mail.gmail.com>
References: <fbf2758a0906091202y2e175a8cv8ee15af8d2a792eb@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <C27C55BF-3F05-47AE-A411-5A461716DE5B@glenjarvis.com>


On Jun 9, 2009, at 12:02 PM, Daryl Spitzer wrote:
> There is a BayPIGgies Twitter account: http://twitter.com/baypiggies.
> But it hasn't been updated in 322 days!  I don't know who created that
> account (perhaps Anna?).  I volunteer to maintain it if that person
> would like to transfer it to me.

I just noticed that this is now active. So, twitterers can follow  
BayPIGgies now :)


Glen
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From daryl.spitzer at gmail.com  Thu Jun 25 22:30:19 2009
From: daryl.spitzer at gmail.com (Daryl Spitzer)
Date: Thu, 25 Jun 2009 13:30:19 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] BayPIGgies on Twitter
In-Reply-To: <C27C55BF-3F05-47AE-A411-5A461716DE5B@glenjarvis.com>
References: <fbf2758a0906091202y2e175a8cv8ee15af8d2a792eb@mail.gmail.com>
	<C27C55BF-3F05-47AE-A411-5A461716DE5B@glenjarvis.com>
Message-ID: <fbf2758a0906251330g7c307b09q2df891948c51b323@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Jun 25, 2009 at 12:46 PM, Glen Jarvis<glen at glenjarvis.com> wrote:

> I just noticed that this is now active. So, twitterers can follow BayPIGgies
> now :)

I guess I forgot to announce that.  (Anna gave me the password.)  So
yes, I'll keep http://twitter.com/baypiggies active.  I welcome any
suggestions for what to do with it other than meeting announcements.
(I have been posting links to what I decide are interesting threads on
the mailing list.)

Note that if you preface a tweet with "@baypiggies", it will be seen
by everyone following BayPIGgies (and only seen by them).

--
Daryl

From glen at glenjarvis.com  Fri Jun 26 04:38:05 2009
From: glen at glenjarvis.com (Glen Jarvis)
Date: Thu, 25 Jun 2009 19:38:05 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] Video guy stuck in traffic
Message-ID: <6B425091-52E2-4B9D-8522-270818F34513@glenjarvis.com>

For those with phones and getting email:

@baypiggies The guy doing the video (me) is caught in traffic. We're  
still 8 miles away parked on highway.

Glen

From glen at glenjarvis.com  Fri Jun 26 10:05:45 2009
From: glen at glenjarvis.com (Glen Jarvis)
Date: Fri, 26 Jun 2009 01:05:45 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] Thank you to O'Reilly Books
Message-ID: <A7611729-827F-4633-84EC-E39CB9D1DE70@glenjarvis.com>

Here is the Video-Thank-You that we recorded for O'Reilly Books. For  
most of you, I suggest the second link (CD Quality). It's a more  
common format, but has the highest quality in that format. I've  
included the Full Quality version in case Tony wishes to tack it onto  
any video, or do any other editing with it.


Full Quality (11M)
     http://glenjarvis.com/static/media/videos/oreilly/ThanksOReilly_FullyQuality.dv
CD Quality (243K)
     http://glenjarvis.com/static/media/videos/oreilly/ThanksOReilly_CDQuality.mov
Web Streaming (83K)
     http://glenjarvis.com/static/media/videos/oreilly/ThanksOReilly_WebStreaming.mov
Web (72K)
     http://glenjarvis.com/static/media/videos/oreilly/ThanksOReilly_Web.mov
Email (50K)
     http://glenjarvis.com/static/media/videos/oreilly/ThanksOReilly_Email.mov

Please note that the addresses are not guaranteed to permanently exist.


Warmest Regards,


Glen Jarvis



From arthamax at sbcglobal.net  Sat Jun 27 02:23:39 2009
From: arthamax at sbcglobal.net (arthamax at sbcglobal.net)
Date: Fri, 26 Jun 2009 17:23:39 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] Getting Started with Python 2.6.2 on Mac
Message-ID: <DC08CAE8-8419-4ADC-9B46-4C15193734B3@sbcglobal.net>

Hi,
I am using a Mac PPC with Tiger 10.4.11 and I just downloaded and  
installed Python 2.6.2. and I am having difficulties getting started.  
I spent a couple of hours trying to find help when I came upon this  
website and decided to give it a shot.

When I open Python Launcher a Preferences window opens with no  
instructions on what to do next. In the Preferences window:

"Settings for file type:" "Python Script" is selected
"Interpreter:" "/usr/local/bin/pythonw" is selected
"Run in a Terminal window" is checked

I have the book "Python Programming, 2nd Ed. for the absolute  
beginner" but it says nothing about this preferences window. Is there  
some prerequisite that an "absolute beginner" needs to know about  
(Mac) computers before I can use Python? What am I missing?

Any assistance on getting started with Python would be very much  
appreciated.

Thank you.
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From jon at inklesspen.com  Sat Jun 27 02:38:45 2009
From: jon at inklesspen.com (Jon Rosebaugh)
Date: Fri, 26 Jun 2009 17:38:45 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] Getting Started with Python 2.6.2 on Mac
In-Reply-To: <DC08CAE8-8419-4ADC-9B46-4C15193734B3@sbcglobal.net>
References: <DC08CAE8-8419-4ADC-9B46-4C15193734B3@sbcglobal.net>
Message-ID: <31BDE5A6-8D85-4D47-AEC1-E643D9557CE4@inklesspen.com>

Open IDLE.app instead. It is a simplistic IDE and will probably be  
easiest for you.

Many Python programmers, however, prefer to get familiar with the unix  
command line, which you can access via /Applications/Utilities/ 
Terminal.app. From this command line, you can access python by running  
the command 'python'.

On Jun 26, 2009, at 5:23 PM, arthamax at sbcglobal.net wrote:

> Hi,
> I am using a Mac PPC with Tiger 10.4.11 and I just downloaded and  
> installed Python 2.6.2. and I am having difficulties getting  
> started. I spent a couple of hours trying to find help when I came  
> upon this website and decided to give it a shot.
>
> When I open Python Launcher a Preferences window opens with no  
> instructions on what to do next. In the Preferences window:
>
> "Settings for file type:" "Python Script" is selected
> "Interpreter:" "/usr/local/bin/pythonw" is selected
> "Run in a Terminal window" is checked
>
> I have the book "Python Programming, 2nd Ed. for the absolute  
> beginner" but it says nothing about this preferences window. Is  
> there some prerequisite that an "absolute beginner" needs to know  
> about (Mac) computers before I can use Python? What am I missing?
>
> Any assistance on getting started with Python would be very much  
> appreciated.
>
> Thank you.
> _______________________________________________
> Baypiggies mailing list
> Baypiggies at python.org
> To change your subscription options or unsubscribe:
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies


From glen at glenjarvis.com  Sat Jun 27 03:03:00 2009
From: glen at glenjarvis.com (Glen Jarvis)
Date: Fri, 26 Jun 2009 18:03:00 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] Idle on iPhone?
Message-ID: <EBD5FE17-6358-4C80-90CE-1A981F5AA240@glenjarvis.com>

I misread the previous question to be "how to get IDLE on iPhone."  
Even though that wasn't what was meant, it made me think. is anyone  
trying to port
IDLE and the python interpreter as an iPhone app? That means porting  
everything to objective C. Is that possible? It's certainly too big  
for me to try. But, it's an interesting idea.

Would it get approved? Is the macpython port already written in ObjC?  
Has some ambitious soul already thought of this and started?

Inquiring minds,


Glen

From jon at inklesspen.com  Sat Jun 27 03:11:50 2009
From: jon at inklesspen.com (Jon Rosebaugh)
Date: Fri, 26 Jun 2009 18:11:50 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] Idle on iPhone?
In-Reply-To: <EBD5FE17-6358-4C80-90CE-1A981F5AA240@glenjarvis.com>
References: <EBD5FE17-6358-4C80-90CE-1A981F5AA240@glenjarvis.com>
Message-ID: <E8C1ED83-1AC9-4516-A310-EA5C778B8078@inklesspen.com>

The SDK terms of service forbid shipping emulators or interpreters,  
presumably on the grounds that they want to make sure what's evaluated  
by their approval process is what will actually be running.

I am informed that there are some iPhone apps that use languages other  
than ObjC, so writing your app in Python should be permitted (and  
feasible, using PyObjC). Shipping an app that uses Python is different  
from shipping a Python interpreter app, though.

On Jun 26, 2009, at 6:03 PM, Glen Jarvis wrote:

> I misread the previous question to be "how to get IDLE on iPhone."  
> Even though that wasn't what was meant, it made me think. is anyone  
> trying to port
> IDLE and the python interpreter as an iPhone app? That means porting  
> everything to objective C. Is that possible? It's certainly too big  
> for me to try. But, it's an interesting idea.
>
> Would it get approved? Is the macpython port already written in  
> ObjC? Has some ambitious soul already thought of this and started?
>
> Inquiring minds,
>
>
> Glen
> _______________________________________________
> Baypiggies mailing list
> Baypiggies at python.org
> To change your subscription options or unsubscribe:
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies


From aahz at pythoncraft.com  Sat Jun 27 04:33:20 2009
From: aahz at pythoncraft.com (Aahz)
Date: Fri, 26 Jun 2009 19:33:20 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] July meeting at OSCON?
Message-ID: <20090627023320.GA17811@panix.com>

It's not yet clear whether we can get a space, but I've been told that
OSCON does allow non-attendees to show up for BOF (birds of a feather)
sessions.  Before I greenlight on the OSCON side, can I get a quick show
of sentiment for moving the July meeting to the San Jose Convention
Center on Thursday 7/23?
-- 
Aahz (aahz at pythoncraft.com)           <*>         http://www.pythoncraft.com/

"as long as we like the same operating system, things are cool." --piranha

From alecf at flett.org  Sat Jun 27 19:49:33 2009
From: alecf at flett.org (Alec Flett)
Date: Sat, 27 Jun 2009 10:49:33 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] Idle on iPhone?
In-Reply-To: <EBD5FE17-6358-4C80-90CE-1A981F5AA240@glenjarvis.com>
References: <EBD5FE17-6358-4C80-90CE-1A981F5AA240@glenjarvis.com>
Message-ID: <c78d65270906271049w62e9cef3x700a7b48b1a8a46e@mail.gmail.com>

On Friday, June 26, 2009, Glen Jarvis <glen at glenjarvis.com> wrote:
> I misread the previous question to be "how to get IDLE on iPhone." Even though that wasn't what was meant, it made me think. is anyone trying to port
> IDLE and the python interpreter as an iPhone app? That means porting everything to objective C. Is that possible? It's certainly too big for me to try. But, it's an interesting idea.

Objective C is actually just a superset of C, so virtally any C-based
codebase (including cpython) should actually compile fine for the
iPhone, (assuming the usual porting issues of any "new" platform, but
the iPhone is really just a mac with tighter memory constraints)

before there was an app store and jailbreaking iPhones was more
common, python was just one of many packages you could install, and
you could even ssh into your phone and run python interactively!
(these days I think very few people bother, and what's the fun of a
python app if you can't get it into the AppStore?)

personally I think the whole interpreter restriction is rediculous
because objective C, while ugly in it's syntax, is very pythonesque
with it's runtime message/method dispatch, introspection, and inherent
tendency towards duck typing

Alec

>
> Would it get approved? Is the macpython port already written in ObjC? Has some ambitious soul already thought of this and started?
>
> Inquiring minds,
>
>
> Glen
> _______________________________________________
> Baypiggies mailing list
> Baypiggies at python.org
> To change your subscription options or unsubscribe:
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies
>

From jon at inklesspen.com  Sat Jun 27 19:59:22 2009
From: jon at inklesspen.com (Jon Rosebaugh)
Date: Sat, 27 Jun 2009 10:59:22 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] Idle on iPhone?
In-Reply-To: <c78d65270906271049w62e9cef3x700a7b48b1a8a46e@mail.gmail.com>
References: <EBD5FE17-6358-4C80-90CE-1A981F5AA240@glenjarvis.com>
	<c78d65270906271049w62e9cef3x700a7b48b1a8a46e@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <0CD0422E-2019-41D4-B830-E64BFE6CBBB4@inklesspen.com>

On Jun 27, 2009, at 10:49 AM, Alec Flett wrote:
> personally I think the whole interpreter restriction is rediculous
> because objective C, while ugly in it's syntax, is very pythonesque
> with it's runtime message/method dispatch, introspection, and inherent
> tendency towards duck typing

I want to emphasize that the restriction is not on interpreted code,  
per se, but on shipping any sort of interpreter, virtual machine, or  
emulator which can download new code from the Internet and execute it.  
If you don't build that capability into your application, you're  
allowed to use interpreted languages.

And Objective-C has great syntax, sir. I'll see you at dawn. With  
pistols.

From glen at glenjarvis.com  Sun Jun 28 01:46:08 2009
From: glen at glenjarvis.com (Glen Jarvis)
Date: Sat, 27 Jun 2009 16:46:08 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] Last Free Can of Spam?
Message-ID: <F12DA05C-896C-4860-A814-000DC46C703A@glenjarvis.com>

Anyone want the last free can of spam I have? he he he.. silly as it  
sounds. Unfortunately, I didn't know where to buy the dead parrots...  
Maybe we can auction it off, or give it as a reward at our next meeting.

Now Spam-a-Lot is wrapped up, it's time to move on to other fun  
projects :)

Take care,


Glen

From resmith at runbox.com  Sun Jun 28 11:13:32 2009
From: resmith at runbox.com (resmith at runbox.com)
Date: Sun, 28 Jun 2009 02:13:32 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Baypiggies] Baypiggies at OSCON
In-Reply-To: <mailman.41.1246096802.22884.baypiggies@python.org>
References: <mailman.41.1246096802.22884.baypiggies@python.org>
Message-ID: <E1MKqS4-0000YQ-FV@fenris.runbox.com>


> 
> It's not yet clear whether we can get a space, but I've been told that
> OSCON does allow non-attendees to show up for BOF (birds of a feather)
> sessions.  Before I greenlight on the OSCON side, can I get a quick show
> of sentiment for moving the July meeting to the San Jose Convention
> Center on Thursday 7/23?

I vote in favor of it.

From jim at well.com  Sun Jun 28 18:35:35 2009
From: jim at well.com (jim)
Date: Sun, 28 Jun 2009 09:35:35 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] Baypiggies at OSCON -- move july meeting to
	SJ	Convention Center?
In-Reply-To: <E1MKqS4-0000YQ-FV@fenris.runbox.com>
References: <mailman.41.1246096802.22884.baypiggies@python.org>
	<E1MKqS4-0000YQ-FV@fenris.runbox.com>
Message-ID: <1246206935.6580.369.camel@jim-laptop>


+1 

On Sun, 2009-06-28 at 02:13 -0700, resmith at runbox.com wrote:
> > 
> > It's not yet clear whether we can get a space, but I've been told that
> > OSCON does allow non-attendees to show up for BOF (birds of a feather)
> > sessions.  Before I greenlight on the OSCON side, can I get a quick show
> > of sentiment for moving the July meeting to the San Jose Convention
> > Center on Thursday 7/23?
> 
> I vote in favor of it.
> _______________________________________________
> Baypiggies mailing list
> Baypiggies at python.org
> To change your subscription options or unsubscribe:
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies
> 


From spmcinerney at hotmail.com  Sun Jun 28 19:46:44 2009
From: spmcinerney at hotmail.com (Stephen McInerney)
Date: Sun, 28 Jun 2009 10:46:44 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] July meeting at OSCON?
In-Reply-To: <20090627023320.GA17811@panix.com>
References: <20090627023320.GA17811@panix.com>
Message-ID: <BAY111-W80FB028B9193CF502CB5FA0330@phx.gbl>


Is a free room available Aahz?

_________________________________________________________________
Lauren found her dream laptop. Find the PC that?s right for you.
http://www.microsoft.com/windows/choosepc/?ocid=ftp_val_wl_290
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From aahz at pythoncraft.com  Sun Jun 28 20:11:31 2009
From: aahz at pythoncraft.com (Aahz)
Date: Sun, 28 Jun 2009 11:11:31 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] July meeting at OSCON?
In-Reply-To: <BAY111-W80FB028B9193CF502CB5FA0330@phx.gbl>
References: <20090627023320.GA17811@panix.com>
	<BAY111-W80FB028B9193CF502CB5FA0330@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <20090628181131.GA13723@panix.com>

On Sun, Jun 28, 2009, Stephen McInerney wrote:
> 
> Is a free room available Aahz?

Haven't heard back from O'Reilly yet, I'll ping them if I don't hear by
Tuesday, unless I get some objections.
-- 
Aahz (aahz at pythoncraft.com)           <*>         http://www.pythoncraft.com/

"as long as we like the same operating system, things are cool." --piranha

From tgregory at teksystems.com  Tue Jun 30 06:16:52 2009
From: tgregory at teksystems.com (Gregory, Travis)
Date: Tue, 30 Jun 2009 00:16:52 -0400
Subject: [Baypiggies] Perot at NASA - Sr. Python Developer
Message-ID: <17AE6A076E7ECC4993571543CC8CF4E00327E91C@ag00-exmbx07.allegisgroup.com>

Hi All,

 

I am emailing this out so someone could maybe help me network or find
someone that would be a fit for this exciting and groundbreaking
position at NASA.  I am a recruiter for TEKsystems and we are working on
an opportunity for a Sr. Python Developer to help work on a project
backed by the government administration to develop a cloud computing
infrastructure.  The job description is below.  Thanks,

 

I hope to speak to someone soon,

 

Travis

 

Python Developer

 

Description:

 

Our client is developing a cloud computing infrastructure.  This has the
backing of the federal government and they want to make it the flagship
(standard).  Cloud Computing is their next generation datacenter with
automated load following and virtual space all mapped together.

 

They are developing in Python (using Django framework) to build the
Cloud Computing Platform.

 

Requirements (Must Haves)

 

Python development (at least 3 years)

Direct experience with highly-scalable web applications (minimum 5M+
monthly unique visitors or the ability to scale to that level)

Leadership experience (managing developers in a highly collaborative R&D
environment)

Experience with Social Media and Social Networking on the API layer

Experience defining, implementing and refining data-driven APIs

Experience in open source, both as a developer and an active community
participant

Agile development in full product life-cycles

 

 

Nice to have:


Development of Complex, N-tiered systems, utilizing loosely-coupled
components based on a message-passing architecture
Familiarity with OAuth, OpenID and other open standards for
authentication and identity
Familiar with EC2, AppEngine, and basic cloud computing infrastructure



 

 

 

________________________________

Travis Gregory TECHNICAL RECRUITER
2099 Gateway Place, Suite 700, San Jose, CA, 95110
800.351.9543 T 408.367.6863

F 408.367.6881
  <http://www.teksystems.com/>  

________________________________

 



____________________________________________________________________________________________________
This electronic mail (including any attachments) may contain information that is privileged, confidential, and/or otherwise protected from disclosure to anyone other than its intended recipient(s). Any dissemination or use of this electronic email or its contents (including any attachments) by persons other than the intended recipient(s) is strictly prohibited. If you have received this message in error, please notify us immediately by reply email so that we may correct our internal records. Please then delete the original message (including any attachments) in its entirety. Thank you.
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From aleax at google.com  Tue Jun 30 07:50:58 2009
From: aleax at google.com (Alex Martelli)
Date: Mon, 29 Jun 2009 22:50:58 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] Perot at NASA - Sr. Python Developer
In-Reply-To: <17AE6A076E7ECC4993571543CC8CF4E00327E91C@ag00-exmbx07.allegisgroup.com>
References: <17AE6A076E7ECC4993571543CC8CF4E00327E91C@ag00-exmbx07.allegisgroup.com>
Message-ID: <55dc209b0906292250r6c099c95h7c0da0cbef4eccd7@mail.gmail.com>

Not that I'm really interested (wallowing in the joy that is working
at Google), but I think it might help you to see why somebody like me
might not qualify by the silly standards you set out...

> Our client is developing a cloud computing infrastructure.? This has the
> backing of the federal government and they want to make it the flagship
> (standard).? Cloud Computing is their next generation datacenter with
> automated load following and virtual space all mapped together.

Considering that I've spent the last 4+ years of my life building
Google's cloud, one might suspect I'm qualified, but...

> Python development (at least 3 years)

Check, 10 years should do.

> Direct experience with highly-scalable web applications (minimum 5M+ monthly
> unique visitors or the ability to scale to that level)

5M pageviews per month is what we *give out FOR FREE* on the Google
App Engine (built on top of the cloud I helped build)...

> Leadership experience (managing developers in a highly collaborative R&D
> environment)

Having spent most of my time at Google as Uber Tech Lead (responsible
directly or indirectly for up to a few dozens of developers when I had
to, though that was only when we lacked director-level personnel -- my
boss, a senior VP, was way overloaded, so I took the people management
load off his shoulder even though I'd much rather have been
hacking!-), I think I could check this one

> Experience with Social Media and Social Networking on the API layer

Ah, that's the killer bit: while I've built clouds and managed large
groups of brilliant developers doing so, I have ZERO experience on
this "Social" silly thing (Google does have Orkut, which runs in part
on infrastructure I helped build, but I nevertheless have ZERO
experience with its APIs). So, since this is a MUST, even if I _was_
looking for a job I would never apply for this one.

In fact I'm quite loath to link my future to this "social networking"
craze, to the point that I've repeatedly resisted facebook's insisted
headhunting (prompted in part, I believe, by friends and ex-colleagues
of mine who work there -- they've experienced what it means to work
closely with me, even though I have ZERO "experience with social"
ANYthing "on the API layer", and must have pressed their recruiters to
keep badgering me even after several refusals on my part).

It's fortunate that your conditions include this "social blahblah"
experience as a MUST, since it means I of course won't apply and you'd
immediately discard me if I did (or else it means you don't know what
MUST means, which should steer ANY sensible person off this
organization, of course).

> Experience defining, implementing and refining data-driven APIs

Got that (BOY do I ever), but doesn't matter since I lack your
(idiotic IMHO) "social" `MUST`.

> Experience in open source, both as a developer and an active community
> participant

Got that, in MANY projects, but again it doesn't matter given the
meaning of "MUST".

> Agile development in full product life-cycles

AND that -- one of my hottest-burning passions, actually.

> Nice to have:
>
> Development of Complex, N-tiered systems, utilizing loosely-coupled
> components based on a message-passing architecture

Got that and then some, pity it doesn't matter.

> Familiarity with OAuth, OpenID and other open standards for authentication
> and identity

Ditto.

> Familiar with EC2, AppEngine, and basic cloud computing infrastructure

And ditto squared.


So -- one single, incredibly silly MUST condition about "social mush"
would stop ME from applying for this job even if I was LOOKING for a
job (which, let me repeat, I ain't) -- even though I'm WAY qualified
or overqualified on EVERY other 'MUST' _and_ 'NICE TO HAVE', *AND* a
lot you don't even bother to mention.

That's what MUST HAVE ***means***.  If I SELECT * FROM ... WHERE
'social' IN experience AND ... -- it doesn't matter how incredibly
well every other aspect matches: if 'social' is *NOT* among the
'experience' set, the row will be entirely and totally discarded no
matter what.

My best guess is that you, and the people who hired you to post this
job offer, are so incredibly clueless that you placed among the "MUST"
a condiiton that's actually, at best, "very nice to have" -- not
realizing what a HUGE difference that makes to any engineer who
actually thinks and behave like an engineer.

Good luck -- compared to the job offer you SHOULD be posting, you'll
either get a small or mediocre set of candidates, OR people willing to
completely ignore what you CLAIM is an "absolutely MUST have
condition", OR... lie through their teeth. Looks like you deserve each
other.


Alex

From annaraven at gmail.com  Tue Jun 30 08:10:21 2009
From: annaraven at gmail.com (Anna Ravenscroft)
Date: Mon, 29 Jun 2009 23:10:21 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] Perot at NASA - Sr. Python Developer
In-Reply-To: <17AE6A076E7ECC4993571543CC8CF4E00327E91C@ag00-exmbx07.allegisgroup.com>
References: <17AE6A076E7ECC4993571543CC8CF4E00327E91C@ag00-exmbx07.allegisgroup.com>
Message-ID: <cb361a610906292310l128e5365u9b6c7606dc13da6c@mail.gmail.com>

Just to point out for folks who are creating job requirement specifications:

>From everything I've experienced and read, most women will look at a
list like that and be very careful to make sure they have *at least*
that much experience PLUS particularly every item listed as MUST.

Many men, on the other hand, will read that and be willing to apply
even if they meet *most* (in their view, by any stretch of the
imagination) of those requirements.

This isn't about men or women being better or worse candidates - just
pointing out how even something as seemingly simple as writing a job
spec can create an imbalance in gender applications.

-- 
cordially,
Anna
--
I am the mother of all things and all things shall wear a sweater!

From progrium at gmail.com  Tue Jun 30 08:12:06 2009
From: progrium at gmail.com (Jeff Lindsay)
Date: Mon, 29 Jun 2009 23:12:06 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] Perot at NASA - Sr. Python Developer
In-Reply-To: <55dc209b0906292250r6c099c95h7c0da0cbef4eccd7@mail.gmail.com>
References: <17AE6A076E7ECC4993571543CC8CF4E00327E91C@ag00-exmbx07.allegisgroup.com>
	<55dc209b0906292250r6c099c95h7c0da0cbef4eccd7@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <ec47901a0906292312p52e45409w642a2b91795fa455@mail.gmail.com>

I actually have no idea who this recruiter is, but I'm on this team. I
have a few cents to add to this whole thing:

- I think recruiters are lame (sorry Travis, nothing personal?)
- I think job postings are like online dating profiles: bullshit, but
give you a *rough sense* of the real thing
- I think these requirements came from our overworked project lead who
didn't have time to think a lot about the fact people will tear it to
shreds
- This project is a lot cooler than it sounds, but will necessarily be
full of marketing buzzwords because it's funded by bureaucracy
- It's also very multi-faceted so a lot of the "musts" stem from the
requirements of the project, not necessarily desired qualities of a
single member (if I'm properly channeling the way our lead thinks)

aaaannd... I guess that's it for now.

-jeff

On Mon, Jun 29, 2009 at 10:50 PM, Alex Martelli<aleax at google.com> wrote:
> Not that I'm really interested (wallowing in the joy that is working
> at Google), but I think it might help you to see why somebody like me
> might not qualify by the silly standards you set out...
>
>> Our client is developing a cloud computing infrastructure.? This has the
>> backing of the federal government and they want to make it the flagship
>> (standard).? Cloud Computing is their next generation datacenter with
>> automated load following and virtual space all mapped together.
>
> Considering that I've spent the last 4+ years of my life building
> Google's cloud, one might suspect I'm qualified, but...
>
>> Python development (at least 3 years)
>
> Check, 10 years should do.
>
>> Direct experience with highly-scalable web applications (minimum 5M+ monthly
>> unique visitors or the ability to scale to that level)
>
> 5M pageviews per month is what we *give out FOR FREE* on the Google
> App Engine (built on top of the cloud I helped build)...
>
>> Leadership experience (managing developers in a highly collaborative R&D
>> environment)
>
> Having spent most of my time at Google as Uber Tech Lead (responsible
> directly or indirectly for up to a few dozens of developers when I had
> to, though that was only when we lacked director-level personnel -- my
> boss, a senior VP, was way overloaded, so I took the people management
> load off his shoulder even though I'd much rather have been
> hacking!-), I think I could check this one
>
>> Experience with Social Media and Social Networking on the API layer
>
> Ah, that's the killer bit: while I've built clouds and managed large
> groups of brilliant developers doing so, I have ZERO experience on
> this "Social" silly thing (Google does have Orkut, which runs in part
> on infrastructure I helped build, but I nevertheless have ZERO
> experience with its APIs). So, since this is a MUST, even if I _was_
> looking for a job I would never apply for this one.
>
> In fact I'm quite loath to link my future to this "social networking"
> craze, to the point that I've repeatedly resisted facebook's insisted
> headhunting (prompted in part, I believe, by friends and ex-colleagues
> of mine who work there -- they've experienced what it means to work
> closely with me, even though I have ZERO "experience with social"
> ANYthing "on the API layer", and must have pressed their recruiters to
> keep badgering me even after several refusals on my part).
>
> It's fortunate that your conditions include this "social blahblah"
> experience as a MUST, since it means I of course won't apply and you'd
> immediately discard me if I did (or else it means you don't know what
> MUST means, which should steer ANY sensible person off this
> organization, of course).
>
>> Experience defining, implementing and refining data-driven APIs
>
> Got that (BOY do I ever), but doesn't matter since I lack your
> (idiotic IMHO) "social" `MUST`.
>
>> Experience in open source, both as a developer and an active community
>> participant
>
> Got that, in MANY projects, but again it doesn't matter given the
> meaning of "MUST".
>
>> Agile development in full product life-cycles
>
> AND that -- one of my hottest-burning passions, actually.
>
>> Nice to have:
>>
>> Development of Complex, N-tiered systems, utilizing loosely-coupled
>> components based on a message-passing architecture
>
> Got that and then some, pity it doesn't matter.
>
>> Familiarity with OAuth, OpenID and other open standards for authentication
>> and identity
>
> Ditto.
>
>> Familiar with EC2, AppEngine, and basic cloud computing infrastructure
>
> And ditto squared.
>
>
> So -- one single, incredibly silly MUST condition about "social mush"
> would stop ME from applying for this job even if I was LOOKING for a
> job (which, let me repeat, I ain't) -- even though I'm WAY qualified
> or overqualified on EVERY other 'MUST' _and_ 'NICE TO HAVE', *AND* a
> lot you don't even bother to mention.
>
> That's what MUST HAVE ***means***. ?If I SELECT * FROM ... WHERE
> 'social' IN experience AND ... -- it doesn't matter how incredibly
> well every other aspect matches: if 'social' is *NOT* among the
> 'experience' set, the row will be entirely and totally discarded no
> matter what.
>
> My best guess is that you, and the people who hired you to post this
> job offer, are so incredibly clueless that you placed among the "MUST"
> a condiiton that's actually, at best, "very nice to have" -- not
> realizing what a HUGE difference that makes to any engineer who
> actually thinks and behave like an engineer.
>
> Good luck -- compared to the job offer you SHOULD be posting, you'll
> either get a small or mediocre set of candidates, OR people willing to
> completely ignore what you CLAIM is an "absolutely MUST have
> condition", OR... lie through their teeth. Looks like you deserve each
> other.
>
>
> Alex
> _______________________________________________
> Baypiggies mailing list
> Baypiggies at python.org
> To change your subscription options or unsubscribe:
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies
>



-- 
Jeff Lindsay
http://webhooks.org -- Make the web more programmable
http://shdh.org -- A party for hackers and thinkers
http://tigdb.com -- Discover indie games
http://progrium.com -- More interesting things

From annaraven at gmail.com  Tue Jun 30 08:21:33 2009
From: annaraven at gmail.com (Anna Ravenscroft)
Date: Mon, 29 Jun 2009 23:21:33 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] Perot at NASA - Sr. Python Developer
In-Reply-To: <ec47901a0906292312p52e45409w642a2b91795fa455@mail.gmail.com>
References: <17AE6A076E7ECC4993571543CC8CF4E00327E91C@ag00-exmbx07.allegisgroup.com>
	<55dc209b0906292250r6c099c95h7c0da0cbef4eccd7@mail.gmail.com>
	<ec47901a0906292312p52e45409w642a2b91795fa455@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <cb361a610906292321m42448bdeod62b4fb09f2e9c21@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Jun 29, 2009 at 11:12 PM, Jeff Lindsay<progrium at gmail.com> wrote:
> I actually have no idea who this recruiter is, but I'm on this team. I
> have a few cents to add to this whole thing:
>
> - I think recruiters are lame (sorry Travis, nothing personal?)
> - I think job postings are like online dating profiles: bullshit, but
> give you a *rough sense* of the real thing
> - I think these requirements came from our overworked project lead who
> didn't have time to think a lot about the fact people will tear it to
> shreds
> - This project is a lot cooler than it sounds,

Actually - the job sounds incredibly cool.

I think the problem is simply with the list of "requirements" for
anyone considering *applying* for the job. Many people (particularly
women, but also very highly-qualified people like Alex) will
self-select out of the list of "qualified applicants" because of the
requirements.

You might want to discuss with your team and HR what the actual
minimum *requirements* for the job are, as opposed to the Nice to
haves and the "this is what makes this job cool" parts, and then
repost. Otherwise, you might very well miss a really awesome candidate
who actually *believes* your "requirements" list.


-- 
cordially,
Anna
--
I am the mother of all things and all things shall wear a sweater!

From wescpy at gmail.com  Tue Jun 30 08:29:05 2009
From: wescpy at gmail.com (wesley chun)
Date: Mon, 29 Jun 2009 23:29:05 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] Perot at NASA - Sr. Python Developer
In-Reply-To: <cb361a610906292321m42448bdeod62b4fb09f2e9c21@mail.gmail.com>
References: <17AE6A076E7ECC4993571543CC8CF4E00327E91C@ag00-exmbx07.allegisgroup.com>
	<55dc209b0906292250r6c099c95h7c0da0cbef4eccd7@mail.gmail.com>
	<ec47901a0906292312p52e45409w642a2b91795fa455@mail.gmail.com>
	<cb361a610906292321m42448bdeod62b4fb09f2e9c21@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <78b3a9580906292329y6a7687f3y82324b2aa5f75f63@mail.gmail.com>

> You might want to discuss with your team and HR what the actual
> minimum *requirements* for the job are, as opposed to the Nice to
> haves and the "this is what makes this job cool" parts, and then
> repost. Otherwise, you might very well miss a really awesome candidate
> who actually *believes* your "requirements" list.


on the 3rd side of the coin is the possibility that employers are
aware that there are lots of ppl on the market, and they're hoping to
reel in a fish that just so happens to have all those skills.

while the job does sound interesting, many engineers and prospective
candidates: (1) would not be interested in a position funded by the
government (which [either over- or usually] underpays for this type of
job), and (2) doesn't have a hefty dose of stock options that has a
possibility of rocketing to outer space (so to speak... not sure if
the pun is intended).

of course, it is a tough market and economy, and these days, it's good
to have a paycheck....

my $0.02,
-wesley

From progrium at gmail.com  Tue Jun 30 08:30:54 2009
From: progrium at gmail.com (Jeff Lindsay)
Date: Mon, 29 Jun 2009 23:30:54 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] Perot at NASA - Sr. Python Developer
In-Reply-To: <cb361a610906292321m42448bdeod62b4fb09f2e9c21@mail.gmail.com>
References: <17AE6A076E7ECC4993571543CC8CF4E00327E91C@ag00-exmbx07.allegisgroup.com>
	<55dc209b0906292250r6c099c95h7c0da0cbef4eccd7@mail.gmail.com>
	<ec47901a0906292312p52e45409w642a2b91795fa455@mail.gmail.com>
	<cb361a610906292321m42448bdeod62b4fb09f2e9c21@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <ec47901a0906292330q6e1a9ea5icb06be843ccf8fbb@mail.gmail.com>

> You might want to discuss with your team and HR what the actual
> minimum *requirements* for the job are, as opposed to the Nice to
> haves and the "this is what makes this job cool" parts, and then
> repost. Otherwise, you might very well miss a really awesome candidate
> who actually *believes* your "requirements" list.

I totally agree, Anna! I'll let them know.

Travis, you should too if you want to get your referral or however it
is you're compensated by actual recruitment. ;)

-- 
Jeff Lindsay
http://webhooks.org -- Make the web more programmable
http://shdh.org -- A party for hackers and thinkers
http://tigdb.com -- Discover indie games
http://progrium.com -- More interesting things

From aleax at google.com  Tue Jun 30 08:44:44 2009
From: aleax at google.com (Alex Martelli)
Date: Mon, 29 Jun 2009 23:44:44 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] Perot at NASA - Sr. Python Developer
In-Reply-To: <78b3a9580906292329y6a7687f3y82324b2aa5f75f63@mail.gmail.com>
References: <17AE6A076E7ECC4993571543CC8CF4E00327E91C@ag00-exmbx07.allegisgroup.com>
	<55dc209b0906292250r6c099c95h7c0da0cbef4eccd7@mail.gmail.com>
	<ec47901a0906292312p52e45409w642a2b91795fa455@mail.gmail.com>
	<cb361a610906292321m42448bdeod62b4fb09f2e9c21@mail.gmail.com>
	<78b3a9580906292329y6a7687f3y82324b2aa5f75f63@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <55dc209b0906292344l61b56651jbcff32330fc3633e@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Jun 29, 2009 at 11:29 PM, wesley chun<wescpy at gmail.com> wrote:
   ...
> of course, it is a tough market and economy, and these days, it's good
> to have a paycheck....

Sure, BUT -- does the hiring manage crave a candidate who's applying
because "it's good to have a paycheck", or would they maybe rather get
a great candidate who cares up to a point about that paycheck thing
(maybe because they HAVE cashed out at a great point in time on those
"stock options" things you mention) but cares MUCH MORE about being a
mutually perfect fit for the job's "MUST-have"s?

Anna's made a great point about women and men reacting differently on
this point, but I must point out I'm in the "women's" section on this
one (hope Prop 8 doesn't nullify our 5-years marriage?-) -- I want
only employers who are RARIN' to get me, NOT "making do" with me, and
in 30 years' of career I've never lacked for plenty of would-be
employers fiercely headhunting me to give me that option.

What kind of employer would PREFER people hungry to get a paycheck, to
ones enthusiastic about the ACTUAL job, AND being actively head-hunted
by recruiters for many other jobs...?

I'm not sure, but whatever kind of employer THAT is, they're very well
advised to add to their "MUST" conditions a few random ones -- fluent
Latvian, deep familiarity with the works of Cecco Angiolieri,
experience in social networking at the API level, and fluency in
Prolog, all sound good to me. (I happen to meet 50% of those random
4;-).


Alex

From hyperneato at gmail.com  Tue Jun 30 08:47:47 2009
From: hyperneato at gmail.com (Isaac)
Date: Mon, 29 Jun 2009 23:47:47 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] Perot at NASA - Sr. Python Developer
In-Reply-To: <55dc209b0906292250r6c099c95h7c0da0cbef4eccd7@mail.gmail.com>
References: <17AE6A076E7ECC4993571543CC8CF4E00327E91C@ag00-exmbx07.allegisgroup.com>
	<55dc209b0906292250r6c099c95h7c0da0cbef4eccd7@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <7260654a0906292347q70ec7b16we3a69df1e6e37210@mail.gmail.com>

taken from RFC 2119 ( http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc2119.txt ):


  In many standards track documents several words are used to signify
   the requirements in the specification.  These words are often
   capitalized.  This document defines these words as they should be
   interpreted in IETF documents.  Authors who follow these guidelines
   should incorporate this phrase near the beginning of their document:

      The key words "MUST", "MUST NOT", "REQUIRED", "SHALL", "SHALL
      NOT", "SHOULD", "SHOULD NOT", "RECOMMENDED",  "MAY", and
      "OPTIONAL" in this document are to be interpreted as described in
      RFC 2119.

   Note that the force of these words is modified by the requirement
   level of the document in which they are used.

1. MUST   This word, or the terms "REQUIRED" or "SHALL", mean that the
   definition is an absolute requirement of the specification.

2. MUST NOT   This phrase, or the phrase "SHALL NOT", mean that the
   definition is an absolute prohibition of the specification.

3. SHOULD   This word, or the adjective "RECOMMENDED", mean that there
   may exist valid reasons in particular circumstances to ignore a
   particular item, but the full implications must be understood and
   carefully weighed before choosing a different course.

4. SHOULD NOT   This phrase, or the phrase "NOT RECOMMENDED" mean that
   there may exist valid reasons in particular circumstances when the
   particular behavior is acceptable or even useful, but the full
   implications should be understood and the case carefully weighed
   before implementing any behavior described with this label.



5. MAY   This word, or the adjective "OPTIONAL", mean that an item is
   truly optional.  One vendor may choose to include the item because a
   particular marketplace requires it or because the vendor feels that
   it enhances the product while another vendor may omit the same item.
   An implementation which does not include a particular option MUST be
   prepared to interoperate with another implementation which does
   include the option, though perhaps with reduced functionality. In the
   same vein an implementation which does include a particular option
   MUST be prepared to interoperate with another implementation which
   does not include the option (except, of course, for the feature the
   option provides.)

Perhaps the job postings on this mailing list SHOULD use this criteria ( or
a similar version ).

-Isaac


On Mon, Jun 29, 2009 at 10:50 PM, Alex Martelli <aleax at google.com> wrote:

> Not that I'm really interested (wallowing in the joy that is working
> at Google), but I think it might help you to see why somebody like me
> might not qualify by the silly standards you set out...
>
> > Our client is developing a cloud computing infrastructure.  This has the
> > backing of the federal government and they want to make it the flagship
> > (standard).  Cloud Computing is their next generation datacenter with
> > automated load following and virtual space all mapped together.
>
> Considering that I've spent the last 4+ years of my life building
> Google's cloud, one might suspect I'm qualified, but...
>
> > Python development (at least 3 years)
>
> Check, 10 years should do.
>
> > Direct experience with highly-scalable web applications (minimum 5M+
> monthly
> > unique visitors or the ability to scale to that level)
>
> 5M pageviews per month is what we *give out FOR FREE* on the Google
> App Engine (built on top of the cloud I helped build)...
>
> > Leadership experience (managing developers in a highly collaborative R&D
> > environment)
>
> Having spent most of my time at Google as Uber Tech Lead (responsible
> directly or indirectly for up to a few dozens of developers when I had
> to, though that was only when we lacked director-level personnel -- my
> boss, a senior VP, was way overloaded, so I took the people management
> load off his shoulder even though I'd much rather have been
> hacking!-), I think I could check this one
>
> > Experience with Social Media and Social Networking on the API layer
>
> Ah, that's the killer bit: while I've built clouds and managed large
> groups of brilliant developers doing so, I have ZERO experience on
> this "Social" silly thing (Google does have Orkut, which runs in part
> on infrastructure I helped build, but I nevertheless have ZERO
> experience with its APIs). So, since this is a MUST, even if I _was_
> looking for a job I would never apply for this one.
>
> In fact I'm quite loath to link my future to this "social networking"
> craze, to the point that I've repeatedly resisted facebook's insisted
> headhunting (prompted in part, I believe, by friends and ex-colleagues
> of mine who work there -- they've experienced what it means to work
> closely with me, even though I have ZERO "experience with social"
> ANYthing "on the API layer", and must have pressed their recruiters to
> keep badgering me even after several refusals on my part).
>
> It's fortunate that your conditions include this "social blahblah"
> experience as a MUST, since it means I of course won't apply and you'd
> immediately discard me if I did (or else it means you don't know what
> MUST means, which should steer ANY sensible person off this
> organization, of course).
>
> > Experience defining, implementing and refining data-driven APIs
>
> Got that (BOY do I ever), but doesn't matter since I lack your
> (idiotic IMHO) "social" `MUST`.
>
> > Experience in open source, both as a developer and an active community
> > participant
>
> Got that, in MANY projects, but again it doesn't matter given the
> meaning of "MUST".
>
> > Agile development in full product life-cycles
>
> AND that -- one of my hottest-burning passions, actually.
>
> > Nice to have:
> >
> > Development of Complex, N-tiered systems, utilizing loosely-coupled
> > components based on a message-passing architecture
>
> Got that and then some, pity it doesn't matter.
>
> > Familiarity with OAuth, OpenID and other open standards for
> authentication
> > and identity
>
> Ditto.
>
> > Familiar with EC2, AppEngine, and basic cloud computing infrastructure
>
> And ditto squared.
>
>
> So -- one single, incredibly silly MUST condition about "social mush"
> would stop ME from applying for this job even if I was LOOKING for a
> job (which, let me repeat, I ain't) -- even though I'm WAY qualified
> or overqualified on EVERY other 'MUST' _and_ 'NICE TO HAVE', *AND* a
> lot you don't even bother to mention.
>
> That's what MUST HAVE ***means***.  If I SELECT * FROM ... WHERE
> 'social' IN experience AND ... -- it doesn't matter how incredibly
> well every other aspect matches: if 'social' is *NOT* among the
> 'experience' set, the row will be entirely and totally discarded no
> matter what.
>
> My best guess is that you, and the people who hired you to post this
> job offer, are so incredibly clueless that you placed among the "MUST"
> a condiiton that's actually, at best, "very nice to have" -- not
> realizing what a HUGE difference that makes to any engineer who
> actually thinks and behave like an engineer.
>
> Good luck -- compared to the job offer you SHOULD be posting, you'll
> either get a small or mediocre set of candidates, OR people willing to
> completely ignore what you CLAIM is an "absolutely MUST have
> condition", OR... lie through their teeth. Looks like you deserve each
> other.
>
>
> Alex
> _______________________________________________
> Baypiggies mailing list
> Baypiggies at python.org
> To change your subscription options or unsubscribe:
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies
>
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From annaraven at gmail.com  Tue Jun 30 08:50:05 2009
From: annaraven at gmail.com (Anna Ravenscroft)
Date: Mon, 29 Jun 2009 23:50:05 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] Perot at NASA - Sr. Python Developer
In-Reply-To: <7260654a0906292347q70ec7b16we3a69df1e6e37210@mail.gmail.com>
References: <17AE6A076E7ECC4993571543CC8CF4E00327E91C@ag00-exmbx07.allegisgroup.com>
	<55dc209b0906292250r6c099c95h7c0da0cbef4eccd7@mail.gmail.com>
	<7260654a0906292347q70ec7b16we3a69df1e6e37210@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <cb361a610906292350g467eb4b7k42974b2cdeca880f@mail.gmail.com>

Great post Isaac!

On Mon, Jun 29, 2009 at 11:47 PM, Isaac<hyperneato at gmail.com> wrote:
> taken from RFC 2119 ( http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc2119.txt ):
>
>   In many standards track documents several words are used to signify
>
>    the requirements in the specification.  These words are often
>    capitalized.  This document defines these words as they should be
>    interpreted in IETF documents.  Authors who follow these guidelines
>    should incorporate this phrase near the beginning of their document:
>
>
>       The key words "MUST", "MUST NOT", "REQUIRED", "SHALL", "SHALL
>       NOT", "SHOULD", "SHOULD NOT", "RECOMMENDED",  "MAY", and
>
>       "OPTIONAL" in this document are to be interpreted as described in
>       RFC 2119.
>
>    Note that the force of these words is modified by the requirement
>    level of the document in which they are used.
>
>
> 1. MUST   This word, or the terms "REQUIRED" or "SHALL", mean that the
>    definition is an absolute requirement of the specification.
>
> 2. MUST NOT   This phrase, or the phrase "SHALL NOT", mean that the
>
>    definition is an absolute prohibition of the specification.
>
> 3. SHOULD   This word, or the adjective "RECOMMENDED", mean that there
>    may exist valid reasons in particular circumstances to ignore a
>
>    particular item, but the full implications must be understood and
>    carefully weighed before choosing a different course.
>
> 4. SHOULD NOT   This phrase, or the phrase "NOT RECOMMENDED" mean that
>    there may exist valid reasons in particular circumstances when the
>
>    particular behavior is acceptable or even useful, but the full
>    implications should be understood and the case carefully weighed
>    before implementing any behavior described with this label.
>
>
>
> 5. MAY   This word, or the adjective "OPTIONAL", mean that an item is
>
>    truly optional.  One vendor may choose to include the item because a
>    particular marketplace requires it or because the vendor feels that
>    it enhances the product while another vendor may omit the same item.
>
>    An implementation which does not include a particular option MUST be
>    prepared to interoperate with another implementation which does
>    include the option, though perhaps with reduced functionality. In the
>
>    same vein an implementation which does include a particular option
>    MUST be prepared to interoperate with another implementation which
>    does not include the option (except, of course, for the feature the
>    option provides.)
>
>
> Perhaps the job postings on this mailing list SHOULD use this criteria ( or
> a similar version ).
>
> -Isaac
>
>
> On Mon, Jun 29, 2009 at 10:50 PM, Alex Martelli <aleax at google.com> wrote:
>>
>> Not that I'm really interested (wallowing in the joy that is working
>> at Google), but I think it might help you to see why somebody like me
>> might not qualify by the silly standards you set out...
>>
>> > Our client is developing a cloud computing infrastructure.? This has the
>> > backing of the federal government and they want to make it the flagship
>> > (standard).? Cloud Computing is their next generation datacenter with
>> > automated load following and virtual space all mapped together.
>>
>> Considering that I've spent the last 4+ years of my life building
>> Google's cloud, one might suspect I'm qualified, but...
>>
>> > Python development (at least 3 years)
>>
>> Check, 10 years should do.
>>
>> > Direct experience with highly-scalable web applications (minimum 5M+
>> > monthly
>> > unique visitors or the ability to scale to that level)
>>
>> 5M pageviews per month is what we *give out FOR FREE* on the Google
>> App Engine (built on top of the cloud I helped build)...
>>
>> > Leadership experience (managing developers in a highly collaborative R&D
>> > environment)
>>
>> Having spent most of my time at Google as Uber Tech Lead (responsible
>> directly or indirectly for up to a few dozens of developers when I had
>> to, though that was only when we lacked director-level personnel -- my
>> boss, a senior VP, was way overloaded, so I took the people management
>> load off his shoulder even though I'd much rather have been
>> hacking!-), I think I could check this one
>>
>> > Experience with Social Media and Social Networking on the API layer
>>
>> Ah, that's the killer bit: while I've built clouds and managed large
>> groups of brilliant developers doing so, I have ZERO experience on
>> this "Social" silly thing (Google does have Orkut, which runs in part
>> on infrastructure I helped build, but I nevertheless have ZERO
>> experience with its APIs). So, since this is a MUST, even if I _was_
>> looking for a job I would never apply for this one.
>>
>> In fact I'm quite loath to link my future to this "social networking"
>> craze, to the point that I've repeatedly resisted facebook's insisted
>> headhunting (prompted in part, I believe, by friends and ex-colleagues
>> of mine who work there -- they've experienced what it means to work
>> closely with me, even though I have ZERO "experience with social"
>> ANYthing "on the API layer", and must have pressed their recruiters to
>> keep badgering me even after several refusals on my part).
>>
>> It's fortunate that your conditions include this "social blahblah"
>> experience as a MUST, since it means I of course won't apply and you'd
>> immediately discard me if I did (or else it means you don't know what
>> MUST means, which should steer ANY sensible person off this
>> organization, of course).
>>
>> > Experience defining, implementing and refining data-driven APIs
>>
>> Got that (BOY do I ever), but doesn't matter since I lack your
>> (idiotic IMHO) "social" `MUST`.
>>
>> > Experience in open source, both as a developer and an active community
>> > participant
>>
>> Got that, in MANY projects, but again it doesn't matter given the
>> meaning of "MUST".
>>
>> > Agile development in full product life-cycles
>>
>> AND that -- one of my hottest-burning passions, actually.
>>
>> > Nice to have:
>> >
>> > Development of Complex, N-tiered systems, utilizing loosely-coupled
>> > components based on a message-passing architecture
>>
>> Got that and then some, pity it doesn't matter.
>>
>> > Familiarity with OAuth, OpenID and other open standards for
>> > authentication
>> > and identity
>>
>> Ditto.
>>
>> > Familiar with EC2, AppEngine, and basic cloud computing infrastructure
>>
>> And ditto squared.
>>
>>
>> So -- one single, incredibly silly MUST condition about "social mush"
>> would stop ME from applying for this job even if I was LOOKING for a
>> job (which, let me repeat, I ain't) -- even though I'm WAY qualified
>> or overqualified on EVERY other 'MUST' _and_ 'NICE TO HAVE', *AND* a
>> lot you don't even bother to mention.
>>
>> That's what MUST HAVE ***means***. ?If I SELECT * FROM ... WHERE
>> 'social' IN experience AND ... -- it doesn't matter how incredibly
>> well every other aspect matches: if 'social' is *NOT* among the
>> 'experience' set, the row will be entirely and totally discarded no
>> matter what.
>>
>> My best guess is that you, and the people who hired you to post this
>> job offer, are so incredibly clueless that you placed among the "MUST"
>> a condiiton that's actually, at best, "very nice to have" -- not
>> realizing what a HUGE difference that makes to any engineer who
>> actually thinks and behave like an engineer.
>>
>> Good luck -- compared to the job offer you SHOULD be posting, you'll
>> either get a small or mediocre set of candidates, OR people willing to
>> completely ignore what you CLAIM is an "absolutely MUST have
>> condition", OR... lie through their teeth. Looks like you deserve each
>> other.
>>
>>
>> Alex
>> _______________________________________________
>> Baypiggies mailing list
>> Baypiggies at python.org
>> To change your subscription options or unsubscribe:
>> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Baypiggies mailing list
> Baypiggies at python.org
> To change your subscription options or unsubscribe:
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies
>



-- 
cordially,
Anna
--
I am the mother of all things and all things shall wear a sweater!

From tgregory at teksystems.com  Tue Jun 30 16:35:45 2009
From: tgregory at teksystems.com (Gregory, Travis)
Date: Tue, 30 Jun 2009 10:35:45 -0400
Subject: [Baypiggies] Perot at NASA - Sr. Python Developer
In-Reply-To: <ec47901a0906292312p52e45409w642a2b91795fa455@mail.gmail.com>
References: <17AE6A076E7ECC4993571543CC8CF4E00327E91C@ag00-exmbx07.allegisgroup.com>
	<55dc209b0906292250r6c099c95h7c0da0cbef4eccd7@mail.gmail.com>
	<ec47901a0906292312p52e45409w642a2b91795fa455@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <17AE6A076E7ECC4993571543CC8CF4E00327EB3C@ag00-exmbx07.allegisgroup.com>

Hi All,

I am sorry for causing such confusion among the group.  Maybe I should qualify some things.  These requirements came from our client, Perot systems.  

The Must Haves are there to stop the unqualified people from applying.  A job description never gives the full story or should stop someone from speaking to me.  I have put all my contact information in the email so interested parties would be able to contact and speak to me directly about the position as I can talk to you about it better than a job description can.  TEKsystems has been around for 25 years and we have partnered with Perot for a long time.  

If anyone is interested in speaking about this further please contact me and I would be happy to speak to you.

Thanks Again and Sorry for the confusion,

Travis Gregory
TGregory at TEKsystems.com
408-367-6863


________________________________

Travis Gregory TECHNICAL RECRUITER
2099 Gateway Place, Suite 700, San Jose, CA, 95110
800.351.9543 T 408.367.6863
F 408.367.6881
http://www.teksystems.com 
________________________________


-----Original Message-----
From: Jeff Lindsay [mailto:progrium at gmail.com] 
Sent: Monday, June 29, 2009 11:12 PM
To: Alex Martelli
Cc: Gregory, Travis; baypiggies at python.org
Subject: Re: [Baypiggies] Perot at NASA - Sr. Python Developer

I actually have no idea who this recruiter is, but I'm on this team. I
have a few cents to add to this whole thing:

- I think recruiters are lame (sorry Travis, nothing personal?)
- I think job postings are like online dating profiles: bullshit, but
give you a *rough sense* of the real thing
- I think these requirements came from our overworked project lead who
didn't have time to think a lot about the fact people will tear it to
shreds
- This project is a lot cooler than it sounds, but will necessarily be
full of marketing buzzwords because it's funded by bureaucracy
- It's also very multi-faceted so a lot of the "musts" stem from the
requirements of the project, not necessarily desired qualities of a
single member (if I'm properly channeling the way our lead thinks)

aaaannd... I guess that's it for now.

-jeff

On Mon, Jun 29, 2009 at 10:50 PM, Alex Martelli<aleax at google.com> wrote:
> Not that I'm really interested (wallowing in the joy that is working
> at Google), but I think it might help you to see why somebody like me
> might not qualify by the silly standards you set out...
>
>> Our client is developing a cloud computing infrastructure.  This has the
>> backing of the federal government and they want to make it the flagship
>> (standard).  Cloud Computing is their next generation datacenter with
>> automated load following and virtual space all mapped together.
>
> Considering that I've spent the last 4+ years of my life building
> Google's cloud, one might suspect I'm qualified, but...
>
>> Python development (at least 3 years)
>
> Check, 10 years should do.
>
>> Direct experience with highly-scalable web applications (minimum 5M+ monthly
>> unique visitors or the ability to scale to that level)
>
> 5M pageviews per month is what we *give out FOR FREE* on the Google
> App Engine (built on top of the cloud I helped build)...
>
>> Leadership experience (managing developers in a highly collaborative R&D
>> environment)
>
> Having spent most of my time at Google as Uber Tech Lead (responsible
> directly or indirectly for up to a few dozens of developers when I had
> to, though that was only when we lacked director-level personnel -- my
> boss, a senior VP, was way overloaded, so I took the people management
> load off his shoulder even though I'd much rather have been
> hacking!-), I think I could check this one
>
>> Experience with Social Media and Social Networking on the API layer
>
> Ah, that's the killer bit: while I've built clouds and managed large
> groups of brilliant developers doing so, I have ZERO experience on
> this "Social" silly thing (Google does have Orkut, which runs in part
> on infrastructure I helped build, but I nevertheless have ZERO
> experience with its APIs). So, since this is a MUST, even if I _was_
> looking for a job I would never apply for this one.
>
> In fact I'm quite loath to link my future to this "social networking"
> craze, to the point that I've repeatedly resisted facebook's insisted
> headhunting (prompted in part, I believe, by friends and ex-colleagues
> of mine who work there -- they've experienced what it means to work
> closely with me, even though I have ZERO "experience with social"
> ANYthing "on the API layer", and must have pressed their recruiters to
> keep badgering me even after several refusals on my part).
>
> It's fortunate that your conditions include this "social blahblah"
> experience as a MUST, since it means I of course won't apply and you'd
> immediately discard me if I did (or else it means you don't know what
> MUST means, which should steer ANY sensible person off this
> organization, of course).
>
>> Experience defining, implementing and refining data-driven APIs
>
> Got that (BOY do I ever), but doesn't matter since I lack your
> (idiotic IMHO) "social" `MUST`.
>
>> Experience in open source, both as a developer and an active community
>> participant
>
> Got that, in MANY projects, but again it doesn't matter given the
> meaning of "MUST".
>
>> Agile development in full product life-cycles
>
> AND that -- one of my hottest-burning passions, actually.
>
>> Nice to have:
>>
>> Development of Complex, N-tiered systems, utilizing loosely-coupled
>> components based on a message-passing architecture
>
> Got that and then some, pity it doesn't matter.
>
>> Familiarity with OAuth, OpenID and other open standards for authentication
>> and identity
>
> Ditto.
>
>> Familiar with EC2, AppEngine, and basic cloud computing infrastructure
>
> And ditto squared.
>
>
> So -- one single, incredibly silly MUST condition about "social mush"
> would stop ME from applying for this job even if I was LOOKING for a
> job (which, let me repeat, I ain't) -- even though I'm WAY qualified
> or overqualified on EVERY other 'MUST' _and_ 'NICE TO HAVE', *AND* a
> lot you don't even bother to mention.
>
> That's what MUST HAVE ***means***.  If I SELECT * FROM ... WHERE
> 'social' IN experience AND ... -- it doesn't matter how incredibly
> well every other aspect matches: if 'social' is *NOT* among the
> 'experience' set, the row will be entirely and totally discarded no
> matter what.
>
> My best guess is that you, and the people who hired you to post this
> job offer, are so incredibly clueless that you placed among the "MUST"
> a condiiton that's actually, at best, "very nice to have" -- not
> realizing what a HUGE difference that makes to any engineer who
> actually thinks and behave like an engineer.
>
> Good luck -- compared to the job offer you SHOULD be posting, you'll
> either get a small or mediocre set of candidates, OR people willing to
> completely ignore what you CLAIM is an "absolutely MUST have
> condition", OR... lie through their teeth. Looks like you deserve each
> other.
>
>
> Alex
> _______________________________________________
> Baypiggies mailing list
> Baypiggies at python.org
> To change your subscription options or unsubscribe:
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies
>



-- 
Jeff Lindsay
http://webhooks.org -- Make the web more programmable
http://shdh.org -- A party for hackers and thinkers
http://tigdb.com -- Discover indie games
http://progrium.com -- More interesting things



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From roderick at sanfransystems.com  Tue Jun 30 17:55:03 2009
From: roderick at sanfransystems.com (Roderick Llewellyn)
Date: Tue, 30 Jun 2009 08:55:03 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] Baypiggies Digest, Vol 44, Issue 38
References: <mailman.8666.1246344612.8014.baypiggies@python.org>
Message-ID: <65F3C69778EB4E88BBC2AABC70051858@orion>

I'm a male, but I would generally follow the rule that if a requirement is 
listed as, well, a requirement, and I lack it, that would knock me out of 
the running, so I wouldn't bother applying. Companies often complain that it 
takes a lot of their time to interview candidates, and so (especially in bad 
economic times) they resort to filtering candidates as much as possible 
before they actually talk to them. Thus schemes like accolo which are 
designed to save employers as much time as possible. But what is often not 
discussed is that the candidates also spend a lot of time in fruitless 
test-taking, phone screens, preparing customized resumes and cover letters, 
and researching technologies asked for in employment ads so one can come in 
not totally ignorant of some listed requirement. I've sent dozens of such 
applications in the last few years with little response. Many employers 
don't even do you the courtesy of telling you that your application was 
rejected... so you don't even know if your application has "timed out" or 
was rejected within 5 minutes of its receipt. In a bad economy, employers 
"feel their oats", they know they have a lot of desperate candidates to 
choose from (I could quote from Karl Marx on this subject). That's why 
you'll often see evident rudeness on the career site of many company 
websites, things like "if you don't know X forget it" or "if you haven't 
done Y don't bother applying".

About recruiting firms:
In my experience of the last 10 or so years, recruiting firms are 
essentially worthless and waste a lot of time. Note that this is not 
intended to apply to any specific individual, but reflects my own dealings 
with such firms. I believe that employers judge recruiting firms largely by 
the number of active resumes in their files (how else?). A number of such 
firms have my resume. About once a year I get a call from these firms 
promising a great position. All I need to do to start the process is send 
the recruiter a fresh updated copy of my resume. I do so and never hear back 
from them, until about a year later when it's next time to tickle the old 
resumes into refreshing themselves. I believe that many of these offered 
positions are phony and are simply designed to call out updated resumes. In 
most cases the recruiters know perfectly well that I have zero chance of 
being employed by their clients based on the resume they already have.
I remember one firm (I think it was the one that uses a brain as their logo) 
called me about a position. The headhunter asked me if I had good experience 
in technologies A and B. I said yes, didn't you read my resume? He replied 
that he didn't have time to read resumes. Just what value was he adding to 
either the employers' or the candidates' processes? Needless to say I never 
heard from him again. Thank God!

More on listed job requirements:
Since even though I'm not currently employed I regard my time as valuable, 
and don't like rejection any more than anybody else, I carefully cull those 
employers to whom I will take the trouble of applying. I agree with Alex 
that my definition of the word "MUST HAVE" is that if you don't have it, it 
doesn't matter if you are Stephen Hawking or even Moses, you're not getting 
the position. No matter how qualified or over-qualified you may be in other 
areas. It is very frequent that employers will list SO many must-haves that 
I seriously wonder if ANYBODY actually knows all of those things. I suspect 
another reason for listing so many "musts" is that it may provide some legal 
protection for the employer. If essentially nobody meets their 
qualifications strictly interpreted, nobody can complain that "hey they 
didn't hire me, they must be prejudiced against me because of characteristic 
X". Hey, you didn't meet the requirements! (well neither did the guy we 
hired, but we liked him better, so there!)
- Roderick Llewellyn



From charles.merriam at gmail.com  Tue Jun 30 18:56:01 2009
From: charles.merriam at gmail.com (Charles Merriam)
Date: Tue, 30 Jun 2009 09:56:01 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] Job Requirements PEP
Message-ID: <b8c6f6c40906300956l13f8fa48l37e951b5b624a175@mail.gmail.com>

So, will there be a PEP for how to hire and evaluate Python
programmers?   Python would be the first language to explicitly even
think about what a programmer should know.  It could provide a topic
list or point system for competence in Python  constructs and aspects.
 It might provide a guideline for other professionals to get an early
pass at competence.

My intuition is that this idea deserves a vigorous, silly, in person
debate.  After which, one person will write "The Purity Test:  Python
Edition", and, more likely than not, no answers will be found.

Charles



On Tue, Jun 30, 2009 at 8:55 AM, Roderick
Llewellyn<roderick at sanfransystems.com> wrote:
> I'm a male, but I would generally follow the rule that if a requirement is
> listed as, well, a requirement, and I lack it, that would knock me out of
> the running, so I wouldn't bother applying. Companies often complain that it
> takes a lot of their time to interview candidates, and so (especially in bad
> economic times) they resort to filtering candidates as much as possible
> before they actually talk to them. Thus schemes like accolo which are
> designed to save employers as much time as possible. But what is often not
> discussed is that the candidates also spend a lot of time in fruitless
> test-taking, phone screens, preparing customized resumes and cover letters,
> and researching technologies asked for in employment ads so one can come in
> not totally ignorant of some listed requirement. I've sent dozens of such
> applications in the last few years with little response. Many employers
> don't even do you the courtesy of telling you that your application was
> rejected... so you don't even know if your application has "timed out" or
> was rejected within 5 minutes of its receipt. In a bad economy, employers
> "feel their oats", they know they have a lot of desperate candidates to
> choose from (I could quote from Karl Marx on this subject). That's why
> you'll often see evident rudeness on the career site of many company
> websites, things like "if you don't know X forget it" or "if you haven't
> done Y don't bother applying".
>
> About recruiting firms:
> In my experience of the last 10 or so years, recruiting firms are
> essentially worthless and waste a lot of time. Note that this is not
> intended to apply to any specific individual, but reflects my own dealings
> with such firms. I believe that employers judge recruiting firms largely by
> the number of active resumes in their files (how else?). A number of such
> firms have my resume. About once a year I get a call from these firms
> promising a great position. All I need to do to start the process is send
> the recruiter a fresh updated copy of my resume. I do so and never hear back
> from them, until about a year later when it's next time to tickle the old
> resumes into refreshing themselves. I believe that many of these offered
> positions are phony and are simply designed to call out updated resumes. In
> most cases the recruiters know perfectly well that I have zero chance of
> being employed by their clients based on the resume they already have.
> I remember one firm (I think it was the one that uses a brain as their logo)
> called me about a position. The headhunter asked me if I had good experience
> in technologies A and B. I said yes, didn't you read my resume? He replied
> that he didn't have time to read resumes. Just what value was he adding to
> either the employers' or the candidates' processes? Needless to say I never
> heard from him again. Thank God!
>
> More on listed job requirements:
> Since even though I'm not currently employed I regard my time as valuable,
> and don't like rejection any more than anybody else, I carefully cull those
> employers to whom I will take the trouble of applying. I agree with Alex
> that my definition of the word "MUST HAVE" is that if you don't have it, it
> doesn't matter if you are Stephen Hawking or even Moses, you're not getting
> the position. No matter how qualified or over-qualified you may be in other
> areas. It is very frequent that employers will list SO many must-haves that
> I seriously wonder if ANYBODY actually knows all of those things. I suspect
> another reason for listing so many "musts" is that it may provide some legal
> protection for the employer. If essentially nobody meets their
> qualifications strictly interpreted, nobody can complain that "hey they
> didn't hire me, they must be prejudiced against me because of characteristic
> X". Hey, you didn't meet the requirements! (well neither did the guy we
> hired, but we liked him better, so there!)
> - Roderick Llewellyn
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Baypiggies mailing list
> Baypiggies at python.org
> To change your subscription options or unsubscribe:
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies
>

From roderick at sanfransystems.com  Tue Jun 30 19:26:55 2009
From: roderick at sanfransystems.com (Roderick Llewellyn)
Date: Tue, 30 Jun 2009 10:26:55 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] Baypiggies Digest, Vol 44, Issue 39
References: <mailman.8764.1246380969.8014.baypiggies@python.org>
Message-ID: <869CCC91389B4087B5CCED12FACA5651@orion>

Charles Merriam's proposal, if serious it be, sounds like one step on the 
way to establishing a certification process. Is that good? I don't know. - 
Rod L.

> Message: 3
> Date: Tue, 30 Jun 2009 09:56:01 -0700
> From: Charles Merriam <charles.merriam at gmail.com>
> To: Roderick Llewellyn <roderick at sanfransystems.com>
> Cc: baypiggies at python.org
> Subject: [Baypiggies] Job Requirements PEP
> Message-ID:
> <b8c6f6c40906300956l13f8fa48l37e951b5b624a175 at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>
> So, will there be a PEP for how to hire and evaluate Python
> programmers?   Python would be the first language to explicitly even
> think about what a programmer should know.  It could provide a topic
> list or point system for competence in Python  constructs and aspects.
> It might provide a guideline for other professionals to get an early
> pass at competence.
>
> My intuition is that this idea deserves a vigorous, silly, in person
> debate.  After which, one person will write "The Purity Test:  Python
> Edition", and, more likely than not, no answers will be found.
>
> Charles
>
>


From stephen.cattaneo at gmail.com  Tue Jun 30 21:27:28 2009
From: stephen.cattaneo at gmail.com (Stephen Cattaneo)
Date: Tue, 30 Jun 2009 12:27:28 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] Book Suggestions?
Message-ID: <9cc0dd6f0906301227n71cfc803s717c221edfb14d2@mail.gmail.com>

Hi all,

I have a $50 gift certificate to amazon burning a hole in my pocket.
I'd like to pick up either a newb/intermediate Django book or an
intermediate/advanced general Python book.

Any suggestions?

(I currently own a single Python book: "Python in a Nutshell.")


Cheers,

S

-- 
---
Failures are finger posts on the road to achievement.

 -- C.S. Lewis

From alecf at flett.org  Tue Jun 30 21:35:03 2009
From: alecf at flett.org (Alec Flett)
Date: Tue, 30 Jun 2009 12:35:03 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] Book Suggestions?
In-Reply-To: <9cc0dd6f0906301227n71cfc803s717c221edfb14d2@mail.gmail.com>
References: <9cc0dd6f0906301227n71cfc803s717c221edfb14d2@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <c78d65270906301235i12766397w2fba62e043a261e4@mail.gmail.com>

I've personally always recommended the Python Cookbook, if you feel like you
know python moderately well.. the reason is that it shows you some great
patterns that go beyond just knowing the syntax of the language - among
other things it really redefined for me what "Object Oriented" meant in a
Python context. (and that was *after* doing C/C++ for 7 years and Python 2
years!)
Alec

On Tue, Jun 30, 2009 at 12:27 PM, Stephen Cattaneo <
stephen.cattaneo at gmail.com> wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> I have a $50 gift certificate to amazon burning a hole in my pocket.
> I'd like to pick up either a newb/intermediate Django book or an
> intermediate/advanced general Python book.
>
> Any suggestions?
>
> (I currently own a single Python book: "Python in a Nutshell.")
>
>
> Cheers,
>
> S
>
> --
> ---
> Failures are finger posts on the road to achievement.
>
>  -- C.S. Lewis
> _______________________________________________
> Baypiggies mailing list
> Baypiggies at python.org
> To change your subscription options or unsubscribe:
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies
>
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From bdbaddog at gmail.com  Tue Jun 30 21:41:43 2009
From: bdbaddog at gmail.com (William Deegan)
Date: Tue, 30 Jun 2009 12:41:43 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] Book Suggestions?
In-Reply-To: <c78d65270906301235i12766397w2fba62e043a261e4@mail.gmail.com>
References: <9cc0dd6f0906301227n71cfc803s717c221edfb14d2@mail.gmail.com>
	<c78d65270906301235i12766397w2fba62e043a261e4@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <8540148a0906301241i169e217en770f5e39da533e54@mail.gmail.com>

Stephen,

I'd give a -1 on the python cookbook it's not anywhere as useful as
the perl cookbook (for perl of course).
Learning Python or Programming python would be my vote.

-Bill

On Tue, Jun 30, 2009 at 12:35 PM, Alec Flett <alecf at flett.org> wrote:
>
> I've personally always recommended the Python Cookbook, if you feel like you know python moderately well.. the reason is that it shows you some great patterns that go beyond just knowing the syntax of the language - among other things it really redefined for me what "Object Oriented" meant in a Python context. (and that was *after* doing C/C++ for 7 years and Python 2 years!)
> Alec
>
> On Tue, Jun 30, 2009 at 12:27 PM, Stephen Cattaneo <stephen.cattaneo at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Hi all,
>>
>> I have a $50 gift certificate to amazon burning a hole in my pocket.
>> I'd like to pick up either a newb/intermediate Django book or an
>> intermediate/advanced general Python book.
>>
>> Any suggestions?
>>
>> (I currently own a single Python book: "Python in a Nutshell.")
>>
>>
>> Cheers,
>>
>> S
>>
>> --
>> ---
>> Failures are finger posts on the road to achievement.
>>
>>  -- C.S. Lewis
>> _______________________________________________
>> Baypiggies mailing list
>> Baypiggies at python.org
>> To change your subscription options or unsubscribe:
>> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Baypiggies mailing list
> Baypiggies at python.org
> To change your subscription options or unsubscribe:
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies

From shaleh at speakeasy.net  Tue Jun 30 21:36:46 2009
From: shaleh at speakeasy.net (Sean Perry)
Date: Tue, 30 Jun 2009 12:36:46 PDT
Subject: [Baypiggies] Book Suggestions?
Message-ID: <55028.1246390606@speakeasy.net>

Get a Python book maybe "Text Processing in Python". The Django docs and
community are really good and moving pretty fast so any book would just be out of
date too soon.

Or, if you don't have a book on regular expressions, "Mastering Regular
Expressions" while not specifically Python is just a great reference to have on
hand. The problem with regexes is that they are nice, succinct and powerful so
people try to use them for everything. But once you learn to use them where they
are appropriate they are a truly valuable addition to the toolbox.

On Tue Jun 30 12:27 , Stephen Cattaneo  sent:

>Hi all,
>
>I have a $50 gift certificate to amazon burning a hole in my pocket.
>I'd like to pick up either a newb/intermediate Django book or an
>intermediate/advanced general Python book.
>
>Any suggestions?
>
>(I currently own a single Python book: "Python in a Nutshell.")
>
>


From aahz at pythoncraft.com  Tue Jun 30 21:46:36 2009
From: aahz at pythoncraft.com (Aahz)
Date: Tue, 30 Jun 2009 12:46:36 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] Job Requirements PEP
In-Reply-To: <b8c6f6c40906300956l13f8fa48l37e951b5b624a175@mail.gmail.com>
References: <b8c6f6c40906300956l13f8fa48l37e951b5b624a175@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20090630194636.GA22790@panix.com>

On Tue, Jun 30, 2009, Charles Merriam wrote:
>
> So, will there be a PEP for how to hire and evaluate Python
> programmers?   Python would be the first language to explicitly even
> think about what a programmer should know.  It could provide a topic
> list or point system for competence in Python  constructs and aspects.
>  It might provide a guideline for other professionals to get an early
> pass at competence.
> 
> My intuition is that this idea deserves a vigorous, silly, in person
> debate.  After which, one person will write "The Purity Test:  Python
> Edition", and, more likely than not, no answers will be found.

Although you're joking, I wanted to respond seriously and mention that
there have been previous discussions of Python certification, and while
there is a significant and vocal minority who favor certification, a
slightly larger and vocal minority vigorously opposes certification.
(Not surprisingly, most people don't seem to care.)  As someone in the
opposition, I'll make the self-serving claim that opposition will
increase if certification ever starts gaining traction.  ;-)
-- 
Aahz (aahz at pythoncraft.com)           <*>         http://www.pythoncraft.com/

"as long as we like the same operating system, things are cool." --piranha

From cappy2112 at gmail.com  Tue Jun 30 22:02:12 2009
From: cappy2112 at gmail.com (Tony Cappellini)
Date: Tue, 30 Jun 2009 13:02:12 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] Book Suggestions?
In-Reply-To: <55028.1246390606@speakeasy.net>
References: <55028.1246390606@speakeasy.net>
Message-ID: <8249c4ac0906301302o6cf60c74sa34516ce830e378a@mail.gmail.com>

On 6/30/09, Sean Perry <shaleh at speakeasy.net> wrote:
> Get a Python book maybe "Text Processing in Python". The Django docs and
-1 on Text Processing. Too much of that book is wasted on the mundane
intro material which repeated in every other basic Python book. Steven
is not a beginner


>  Or, if you don't have a book on regular expressions, "Mastering Regular Expressions" while not
Yes, in addition to the newest book on Regular Expressions from Oreilly
http://www.baypiggies.net/index_html/user-group-association-program/BookReviews/regular-expressions-cookbook

From jeffrey.fischer at gmail.com  Tue Jun 30 22:26:38 2009
From: jeffrey.fischer at gmail.com (Jeff Fischer)
Date: Tue, 30 Jun 2009 13:26:38 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] Job Requirements PEP
Message-ID: <2c95bbb00906301326y749b344epc0ac5b9df85acd26@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Jun 30, 2009, Charles Merriam wrote:
>
> So, will there be a PEP for how to hire and evaluate Python
> programmers?   Python would be the first language to explicitly even
> think about what a programmer should know.  It could provide a topic
> list or point system for competence in Python  constructs and aspects.
>  It might provide a guideline for other professionals to get an early
> pass at competence.
>
> My intuition is that this idea deserves a vigorous, silly, in person
> debate.  After which, one person will write "The Purity Test:  Python
> Edition", and, more likely than not, no answers will be found.

Here's my proposal for a Python certification test (in jest, of course):

1. [essay, 50 points] Pick any two-line stanza from "The Zen of
Python" and explain in your own words what you think it means.

2. [essay, 30 points] Compare and contrast the design philosophy of
Python to one of the following languages: C, Java, ML, Perl, Ruby, or
Scheme. You get five points off for each disparaging remark against
either language.

3. [Multiple-choice, 20 points] Which of the following issues is most
important to you?
    A. The Global Interpreter Lock
    B. Multi-line lambdas
    C. A better standard API for command-line argument parsing
    D. vi vs. emacs
    E. Building useful software applications in Python

 - Jeff

From amax at redsymbol.net  Tue Jun 30 22:31:05 2009
From: amax at redsymbol.net (Aaron Maxwell)
Date: Tue, 30 Jun 2009 13:31:05 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] Book Suggestions?
In-Reply-To: <8540148a0906301241i169e217en770f5e39da533e54@mail.gmail.com>
References: <9cc0dd6f0906301227n71cfc803s717c221edfb14d2@mail.gmail.com>
	<c78d65270906301235i12766397w2fba62e043a261e4@mail.gmail.com>
	<8540148a0906301241i169e217en770f5e39da533e54@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <200906301331.05246.amax@redsymbol.net>

Hi Stephen, Bill, everyone -

(note: implicit in everything I write below is that you keep the free python 
library docs under your pillow)

On Tuesday 30 June 2009 12:41:43 pm William Deegan wrote:
> I'd give a -1 on the python cookbook 

Have to respectively disagree.  The cookbook is probably not so useful for a 
complete python noob ("How do I define a function?").  But once one starts to 
approach intermediate level, I think it's the single most valuable book to 
have!

> it's not anywhere as useful as 
> the perl cookbook (for perl of course).

Really?  Having read AND used both the perl and python cookbooks to the point 
of wearing them out, I personally found them both really good.  If we're 
saying the perl cookbook is a better book for what it does compared to the 
python one... well, I might agree.

But it doesn't really matter in this instance. What matters is, does the 
pycookbook stand on its own merits?  I say yes!  It's very useful in teaching 
the non-noob to code python EFFECTIVELY - using the language and libraries 
powerfully to solve important real engineering problems.

Of course, all this is my opinion!  Not saying you are wrong here.  (Well, 
maybe a little ;)

> Learning Python or Programming python would be my vote.

I'd consider LP to be newbie-level.  PP isn't a BAD choice.  Just think the 
pycookbook is a better one.

>
> -Bill
>
-- 
Aaron Maxwell
http://redsymbol.net/

From rocky at teampatent.com  Tue Jun 30 23:04:23 2009
From: rocky at teampatent.com (Rocky Kahn)
Date: Tue, 30 Jun 2009 14:04:23 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] Perot at NASA - Sr. Python Developer
In-Reply-To: <17AE6A076E7ECC4993571543CC8CF4E00327EB3C@ag00-exmbx07.allegisgroup.com>
References: <17AE6A076E7ECC4993571543CC8CF4E00327E91C@ag00-exmbx07.allegisgroup.com>
	<55dc209b0906292250r6c099c95h7c0da0cbef4eccd7@mail.gmail.com>
	<ec47901a0906292312p52e45409w642a2b91795fa455@mail.gmail.com>
	<17AE6A076E7ECC4993571543CC8CF4E00327EB3C@ag00-exmbx07.allegisgroup.com>
Message-ID: <5e7dca810906301404x7ae3bb22ue87589f518d579c3@mail.gmail.com>

I've recently been posting jobs for Python
experts<http://teampatent.com/jobs.html>and specify no recruiters & no
offshore.  Most responses come come from
recruiters and offshore firms who blatantly ignore these requirements.  It's
easy to filter these and, as CEO, I carefully read applications from those
who take the time to read the requisition, even when there are substantive
gaps between the applicant's experience and the work requirements.  I'm
careful to limit the requirements to the minimum and put all the "desirable"
traits in the section beginning with "strong candidates will be able to...".

I assume recruiters have little or no programming knowledge so they can't do
this filtering.  The employer is paying the recruiter $10-20k (?) for help
filtering applicants so the recruiter doesn't want to dump the unfiltered
applications on the hiring manager.  The result is an overly-strict set of
qualifications.  The requirements could be minimized by using recruiters
with programming experience but there's not many recruiters with that skill
and they'd be more expensive.

It seems like dereliction of duty for hiring managers to work through
recruiters, but maybe there's a good reason I don't discern.

Rocky Kahn
TeamPatent


On Tue, Jun 30, 2009 at 07:35, Gregory, Travis <tgregory at teksystems.com>wrote:

> Hi All,
>
> I am sorry for causing such confusion among the group.  Maybe I should
> qualify some things.  These requirements came from our client, Perot
> systems.
>
> The Must Haves are there to stop the unqualified people from applying.  A
> job description never gives the full story or should stop someone from
> speaking to me.  I have put all my contact information in the email so
> interested parties would be able to contact and speak to me directly about
> the position as I can talk to you about it better than a job description
> can.  TEKsystems has been around for 25 years and we have partnered with
> Perot for a long time.
>
> If anyone is interested in speaking about this further please contact me
> and I would be happy to speak to you.
>
> Thanks Again and Sorry for the confusion,
>
> Travis Gregory
> TGregory at TEKsystems.com
> 408-367-6863
>
>
> ________________________________
>
> Travis Gregory TECHNICAL RECRUITER
> 2099 Gateway Place, Suite 700, San Jose, CA, 95110
> 800.351.9543 T 408.367.6863
> F 408.367.6881
> http://www.teksystems.com
> ________________________________
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jeff Lindsay [mailto:progrium at gmail.com]
> Sent: Monday, June 29, 2009 11:12 PM
> To: Alex Martelli
> Cc: Gregory, Travis; baypiggies at python.org
> Subject: Re: [Baypiggies] Perot at NASA - Sr. Python Developer
>
> I actually have no idea who this recruiter is, but I'm on this team. I
> have a few cents to add to this whole thing:
>
> - I think recruiters are lame (sorry Travis, nothing personal?)
> - I think job postings are like online dating profiles: bullshit, but
> give you a *rough sense* of the real thing
> - I think these requirements came from our overworked project lead who
> didn't have time to think a lot about the fact people will tear it to
> shreds
> - This project is a lot cooler than it sounds, but will necessarily be
> full of marketing buzzwords because it's funded by bureaucracy
> - It's also very multi-faceted so a lot of the "musts" stem from the
> requirements of the project, not necessarily desired qualities of a
> single member (if I'm properly channeling the way our lead thinks)
>
> aaaannd... I guess that's it for now.
>
> -jeff
>
> On Mon, Jun 29, 2009 at 10:50 PM, Alex Martelli<aleax at google.com> wrote:
> > Not that I'm really interested (wallowing in the joy that is working
> > at Google), but I think it might help you to see why somebody like me
> > might not qualify by the silly standards you set out...
> >
> >> Our client is developing a cloud computing infrastructure.  This has the
> >> backing of the federal government and they want to make it the flagship
> >> (standard).  Cloud Computing is their next generation datacenter with
> >> automated load following and virtual space all mapped together.
> >
> > Considering that I've spent the last 4+ years of my life building
> > Google's cloud, one might suspect I'm qualified, but...
> >
> >> Python development (at least 3 years)
> >
> > Check, 10 years should do.
> >
> >> Direct experience with highly-scalable web applications (minimum 5M+
> monthly
> >> unique visitors or the ability to scale to that level)
> >
> > 5M pageviews per month is what we *give out FOR FREE* on the Google
> > App Engine (built on top of the cloud I helped build)...
> >
> >> Leadership experience (managing developers in a highly collaborative R&D
> >> environment)
> >
> > Having spent most of my time at Google as Uber Tech Lead (responsible
> > directly or indirectly for up to a few dozens of developers when I had
> > to, though that was only when we lacked director-level personnel -- my
> > boss, a senior VP, was way overloaded, so I took the people management
> > load off his shoulder even though I'd much rather have been
> > hacking!-), I think I could check this one
> >
> >> Experience with Social Media and Social Networking on the API layer
> >
> > Ah, that's the killer bit: while I've built clouds and managed large
> > groups of brilliant developers doing so, I have ZERO experience on
> > this "Social" silly thing (Google does have Orkut, which runs in part
> > on infrastructure I helped build, but I nevertheless have ZERO
> > experience with its APIs). So, since this is a MUST, even if I _was_
> > looking for a job I would never apply for this one.
> >
> > In fact I'm quite loath to link my future to this "social networking"
> > craze, to the point that I've repeatedly resisted facebook's insisted
> > headhunting (prompted in part, I believe, by friends and ex-colleagues
> > of mine who work there -- they've experienced what it means to work
> > closely with me, even though I have ZERO "experience with social"
> > ANYthing "on the API layer", and must have pressed their recruiters to
> > keep badgering me even after several refusals on my part).
> >
> > It's fortunate that your conditions include this "social blahblah"
> > experience as a MUST, since it means I of course won't apply and you'd
> > immediately discard me if I did (or else it means you don't know what
> > MUST means, which should steer ANY sensible person off this
> > organization, of course).
> >
> >> Experience defining, implementing and refining data-driven APIs
> >
> > Got that (BOY do I ever), but doesn't matter since I lack your
> > (idiotic IMHO) "social" `MUST`.
> >
> >> Experience in open source, both as a developer and an active community
> >> participant
> >
> > Got that, in MANY projects, but again it doesn't matter given the
> > meaning of "MUST".
> >
> >> Agile development in full product life-cycles
> >
> > AND that -- one of my hottest-burning passions, actually.
> >
> >> Nice to have:
> >>
> >> Development of Complex, N-tiered systems, utilizing loosely-coupled
> >> components based on a message-passing architecture
> >
> > Got that and then some, pity it doesn't matter.
> >
> >> Familiarity with OAuth, OpenID and other open standards for
> authentication
> >> and identity
> >
> > Ditto.
> >
> >> Familiar with EC2, AppEngine, and basic cloud computing infrastructure
> >
> > And ditto squared.
> >
> >
> > So -- one single, incredibly silly MUST condition about "social mush"
> > would stop ME from applying for this job even if I was LOOKING for a
> > job (which, let me repeat, I ain't) -- even though I'm WAY qualified
> > or overqualified on EVERY other 'MUST' _and_ 'NICE TO HAVE', *AND* a
> > lot you don't even bother to mention.
> >
> > That's what MUST HAVE ***means***.  If I SELECT * FROM ... WHERE
> > 'social' IN experience AND ... -- it doesn't matter how incredibly
> > well every other aspect matches: if 'social' is *NOT* among the
> > 'experience' set, the row will be entirely and totally discarded no
> > matter what.
> >
> > My best guess is that you, and the people who hired you to post this
> > job offer, are so incredibly clueless that you placed among the "MUST"
> > a condiiton that's actually, at best, "very nice to have" -- not
> > realizing what a HUGE difference that makes to any engineer who
> > actually thinks and behave like an engineer.
> >
> > Good luck -- compared to the job offer you SHOULD be posting, you'll
> > either get a small or mediocre set of candidates, OR people willing to
> > completely ignore what you CLAIM is an "absolutely MUST have
> > condition", OR... lie through their teeth. Looks like you deserve each
> > other.
> >
> >
> > Alex
> > _______________________________________________
> > Baypiggies mailing list
> > Baypiggies at python.org
> > To change your subscription options or unsubscribe:
> > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies
> >
>
>
>
> --
> Jeff Lindsay
> http://webhooks.org -- Make the web more programmable
> http://shdh.org -- A party for hackers and thinkers
> http://tigdb.com -- Discover indie games
> http://progrium.com -- More interesting things
>
>
>
>
> ____________________________________________________________________________________________________
> This electronic mail (including any attachments) may contain information
> that is privileged, confidential, and/or otherwise protected from disclosure
> to anyone other than its intended recipient(s). Any dissemination or use of
> this electronic email or its contents (including any attachments) by persons
> other than the intended recipient(s) is strictly prohibited. If you have
> received this message in error, please notify us immediately by reply email
> so that we may correct our internal records. Please then delete the original
> message (including any attachments) in its entirety. Thank you.
> _______________________________________________
> Baypiggies mailing list
> Baypiggies at python.org
> To change your subscription options or unsubscribe:
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies
>
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From fred at bsdhost.net  Tue Jun 30 22:29:53 2009
From: fred at bsdhost.net (Fred C)
Date: Tue, 30 Jun 2009 13:29:53 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] Book Suggestions?
In-Reply-To: <9cc0dd6f0906301227n71cfc803s717c221edfb14d2@mail.gmail.com>
References: <9cc0dd6f0906301227n71cfc803s717c221edfb14d2@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <C77AFFDA-7F08-484C-8D9E-0CA0443A4906@bsdhost.net>


On Jun 30, 2009, at 12:27 PM, Stephen Cattaneo wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> I have a $50 gift certificate to amazon burning a hole in my pocket.
> I'd like to pick up either a newb/intermediate Django book or an
> intermediate/advanced general Python book.
>
> Any suggestions?
>
> (I currently own a single Python book: "Python in a Nutshell.")

I enjoyed reading that book "Expert Python Programming: Best practices  
for designing, coding, and distributing your Python software" http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/184719494X/

This is not a reference manual, you won't find the complete list of  
all the function with their parameters and return values. But it is  
very interesting and helpful for organising, optimising and writing  
clean code.

-fred-


From alecf at flett.org  Tue Jun 30 23:47:14 2009
From: alecf at flett.org (Alec Flett)
Date: Tue, 30 Jun 2009 14:47:14 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] Perot at NASA - Sr. Python Developer
In-Reply-To: <17AE6A076E7ECC4993571543CC8CF4E00327EB3C@ag00-exmbx07.allegisgroup.com>
References: <17AE6A076E7ECC4993571543CC8CF4E00327E91C@ag00-exmbx07.allegisgroup.com>
	<55dc209b0906292250r6c099c95h7c0da0cbef4eccd7@mail.gmail.com>
	<ec47901a0906292312p52e45409w642a2b91795fa455@mail.gmail.com>
	<17AE6A076E7ECC4993571543CC8CF4E00327EB3C@ag00-exmbx07.allegisgroup.com>
Message-ID: <c78d65270906301447t39d0e7fgd2f62c9af151ce16@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Jun 30, 2009 at 7:35 AM, Gregory, Travis <tgregory at teksystems.com>wrote:

> Hi All,
>
> I am sorry for causing such confusion among the group.  Maybe I should
> qualify some things.  These requirements came from our client, Perot
> systems.
>

I want to say, perhaps I'm in the minority, that if someone posting for a
job wants someone with experience working in the social networking space,
that's a fair request, the same way its fair to request people who care
about interesting algorithms, code quality, excitement about scalability,
etc. I think the social networking space is, like lots of other verticals, a
space that DOES have its own set of issues both technically and on the
product creation side.

A case study: I was amazed recently when a bunch of technical folks I know,
(who will remain nameless) who never use twitter added "twitter integration"
to their application - the integration was basically allowing users to let
the service hijack their twitter account to send fairly content-free
messages +links on their behalf. They thought they were doing the user a
great service because none of them use twitter in a social context.

They held the common attitude towards twitter of "nobody cares that you're
eating french fries right this moment, so stop tweeting about it" and at
some level thought they were raising the quality of people's tweets by
letting them share these links. Instead, for people who really enjoy using
it in an almost purely social/gossipy context (which is most twitter use,
including my own) they were really doing most of their their users a
disservice by twittering impersonal stuff on their behalf.

The fact is, while not everybody cares about it, a lot of folks, like me,
actually do like it when their friends twitter "Boy I just had the best
french fries in the world and now I'm going to nap them off" Yes, thats
actually interesting to some of us, and I'm not afraid to admit it :)

So I guess my point is: you can be technically savvy, have decades of
experience as a software developer, but if you don't have experience in one
particular vertical (or in fact mock it as a craze) that's a VERY reasonable
filter for a hiring manager. If I am a founder or CEO of a startup that
leverages social-network-oriented features to succeed, and my engineers kept
deprioritizing social features because they thought I was just caught up in
a craze, I'd be pretty annoyed with those developers no matter how
technically savvy they are.

Alec


>
> The Must Haves are there to stop the unqualified people from applying.  A
> job description never gives the full story or should stop someone from
> speaking to me.  I have put all my contact information in the email so
> interested parties would be able to contact and speak to me directly about
> the position as I can talk to you about it better than a job description
> can.  TEKsystems has been around for 25 years and we have partnered with
> Perot for a long time.
>
> If anyone is interested in speaking about this further please contact me
> and I would be happy to speak to you.
>
> Thanks Again and Sorry for the confusion,
>
> Travis Gregory
> TGregory at TEKsystems.com
> 408-367-6863
>
>
> ________________________________
>
> Travis Gregory TECHNICAL RECRUITER
> 2099 Gateway Place, Suite 700, San Jose, CA, 95110
> 800.351.9543 T 408.367.6863
> F 408.367.6881
> http://www.teksystems.com
> ________________________________
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jeff Lindsay [mailto:progrium at gmail.com]
> Sent: Monday, June 29, 2009 11:12 PM
> To: Alex Martelli
> Cc: Gregory, Travis; baypiggies at python.org
> Subject: Re: [Baypiggies] Perot at NASA - Sr. Python Developer
>
> I actually have no idea who this recruiter is, but I'm on this team. I
> have a few cents to add to this whole thing:
>
> - I think recruiters are lame (sorry Travis, nothing personal?)
> - I think job postings are like online dating profiles: bullshit, but
> give you a *rough sense* of the real thing
> - I think these requirements came from our overworked project lead who
> didn't have time to think a lot about the fact people will tear it to
> shreds
> - This project is a lot cooler than it sounds, but will necessarily be
> full of marketing buzzwords because it's funded by bureaucracy
> - It's also very multi-faceted so a lot of the "musts" stem from the
> requirements of the project, not necessarily desired qualities of a
> single member (if I'm properly channeling the way our lead thinks)
>
> aaaannd... I guess that's it for now.
>
> -jeff
>
> On Mon, Jun 29, 2009 at 10:50 PM, Alex Martelli<aleax at google.com> wrote:
> > Not that I'm really interested (wallowing in the joy that is working
> > at Google), but I think it might help you to see why somebody like me
> > might not qualify by the silly standards you set out...
> >
> >> Our client is developing a cloud computing infrastructure.  This has the
> >> backing of the federal government and they want to make it the flagship
> >> (standard).  Cloud Computing is their next generation datacenter with
> >> automated load following and virtual space all mapped together.
> >
> > Considering that I've spent the last 4+ years of my life building
> > Google's cloud, one might suspect I'm qualified, but...
> >
> >> Python development (at least 3 years)
> >
> > Check, 10 years should do.
> >
> >> Direct experience with highly-scalable web applications (minimum 5M+
> monthly
> >> unique visitors or the ability to scale to that level)
> >
> > 5M pageviews per month is what we *give out FOR FREE* on the Google
> > App Engine (built on top of the cloud I helped build)...
> >
> >> Leadership experience (managing developers in a highly collaborative R&D
> >> environment)
> >
> > Having spent most of my time at Google as Uber Tech Lead (responsible
> > directly or indirectly for up to a few dozens of developers when I had
> > to, though that was only when we lacked director-level personnel -- my
> > boss, a senior VP, was way overloaded, so I took the people management
> > load off his shoulder even though I'd much rather have been
> > hacking!-), I think I could check this one
> >
> >> Experience with Social Media and Social Networking on the API layer
> >
> > Ah, that's the killer bit: while I've built clouds and managed large
> > groups of brilliant developers doing so, I have ZERO experience on
> > this "Social" silly thing (Google does have Orkut, which runs in part
> > on infrastructure I helped build, but I nevertheless have ZERO
> > experience with its APIs). So, since this is a MUST, even if I _was_
> > looking for a job I would never apply for this one.
> >
> > In fact I'm quite loath to link my future to this "social networking"
> > craze, to the point that I've repeatedly resisted facebook's insisted
> > headhunting (prompted in part, I believe, by friends and ex-colleagues
> > of mine who work there -- they've experienced what it means to work
> > closely with me, even though I have ZERO "experience with social"
> > ANYthing "on the API layer", and must have pressed their recruiters to
> > keep badgering me even after several refusals on my part).
> >
> > It's fortunate that your conditions include this "social blahblah"
> > experience as a MUST, since it means I of course won't apply and you'd
> > immediately discard me if I did (or else it means you don't know what
> > MUST means, which should steer ANY sensible person off this
> > organization, of course).
> >
> >> Experience defining, implementing and refining data-driven APIs
> >
> > Got that (BOY do I ever), but doesn't matter since I lack your
> > (idiotic IMHO) "social" `MUST`.
> >
> >> Experience in open source, both as a developer and an active community
> >> participant
> >
> > Got that, in MANY projects, but again it doesn't matter given the
> > meaning of "MUST".
> >
> >> Agile development in full product life-cycles
> >
> > AND that -- one of my hottest-burning passions, actually.
> >
> >> Nice to have:
> >>
> >> Development of Complex, N-tiered systems, utilizing loosely-coupled
> >> components based on a message-passing architecture
> >
> > Got that and then some, pity it doesn't matter.
> >
> >> Familiarity with OAuth, OpenID and other open standards for
> authentication
> >> and identity
> >
> > Ditto.
> >
> >> Familiar with EC2, AppEngine, and basic cloud computing infrastructure
> >
> > And ditto squared.
> >
> >
> > So -- one single, incredibly silly MUST condition about "social mush"
> > would stop ME from applying for this job even if I was LOOKING for a
> > job (which, let me repeat, I ain't) -- even though I'm WAY qualified
> > or overqualified on EVERY other 'MUST' _and_ 'NICE TO HAVE', *AND* a
> > lot you don't even bother to mention.
> >
> > That's what MUST HAVE ***means***.  If I SELECT * FROM ... WHERE
> > 'social' IN experience AND ... -- it doesn't matter how incredibly
> > well every other aspect matches: if 'social' is *NOT* among the
> > 'experience' set, the row will be entirely and totally discarded no
> > matter what.
> >
> > My best guess is that you, and the people who hired you to post this
> > job offer, are so incredibly clueless that you placed among the "MUST"
> > a condiiton that's actually, at best, "very nice to have" -- not
> > realizing what a HUGE difference that makes to any engineer who
> > actually thinks and behave like an engineer.
> >
> > Good luck -- compared to the job offer you SHOULD be posting, you'll
> > either get a small or mediocre set of candidates, OR people willing to
> > completely ignore what you CLAIM is an "absolutely MUST have
> > condition", OR... lie through their teeth. Looks like you deserve each
> > other.
> >
> >
> > Alex
> > _______________________________________________
> > Baypiggies mailing list
> > Baypiggies at python.org
> > To change your subscription options or unsubscribe:
> > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies
> >
>
>
>
> --
> Jeff Lindsay
> http://webhooks.org -- Make the web more programmable
> http://shdh.org -- A party for hackers and thinkers
> http://tigdb.com -- Discover indie games
> http://progrium.com -- More interesting things
>
>
>
>
> ____________________________________________________________________________________________________
> This electronic mail (including any attachments) may contain information
> that is privileged, confidential, and/or otherwise protected from disclosure
> to anyone other than its intended recipient(s). Any dissemination or use of
> this electronic email or its contents (including any attachments) by persons
> other than the intended recipient(s) is strictly prohibited. If you have
> received this message in error, please notify us immediately by reply email
> so that we may correct our internal records. Please then delete the original
> message (including any attachments) in its entirety. Thank you.
> _______________________________________________
> Baypiggies mailing list
> Baypiggies at python.org
> To change your subscription options or unsubscribe:
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies
>
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From wescpy at gmail.com  Tue Jun 30 23:57:22 2009
From: wescpy at gmail.com (wesley chun)
Date: Tue, 30 Jun 2009 14:57:22 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] Book Suggestions?
In-Reply-To: <9cc0dd6f0906301227n71cfc803s717c221edfb14d2@mail.gmail.com>
References: <9cc0dd6f0906301227n71cfc803s717c221edfb14d2@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <78b3a9580906301457k45de645enb9f51ac68796a9b4@mail.gmail.com>

> I have a $50 gift certificate to amazon burning a hole in my pocket.
> I'd like to pick up either a newb/intermediate Django book or an
> intermediate/advanced general Python book.
>
> Any suggestions?


*totally unbiased* but check out all 3 books below... they fit your
criteria perfectly....  ;-)

cheers,
-- wesley

ps. reviews for all here: http://www.amazon.com/s?field-keywords=chun+python

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
"Core Python Programming", Prentice Hall, (c)2007,2001
"Python Fundamentals", Prentice Hall, (c)2009
    http://corepython.com

"Python Web Development with Django", Addison Wesley, (c) 2009
http://withdjango.com

wesley.j.chun :: wescpy-at-gmail.com
python training and technical consulting
cyberweb.consulting : silicon valley, ca
http://cyberwebconsulting.com