From reggie at merfinllc.com Tue Jun 3 03:20:26 2008 From: reggie at merfinllc.com (Reggie Dugard) Date: Mon, 02 Jun 2008 18:20:26 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Use Python in Sytems/Network Admin job in Walnut Creek Message-ID: <1212456026.6410.24.camel@zorro.merfinllc.com> **Position**: Member, Technical Staff **Job Description**: Systems Administration/IT We are a small and growing investment fund management company, looking for a systems administrator who can work with a small team, and eventually lead the design, growth, and maintenance of our heterogeneous system infrastructure. We require strong skills working with Linux based computation and storage networks in production and development environments, and some familiarity with basic Windows networking environments. Knowing (or learning) Python is a requirement of the position, although experience with other scripting languages (Bash, Ruby, Perl, etc.) and an ability and willingness to adapt is fine to start with. Qualifications (required): * Bachelor's degree or equivalent combination of education and experience * Three or more years experience working with small to medium size networks * Several years experience with Linux and/or Unix systems administration * Experience working with hardware and OS setup and maintenance * Willing to learn and manage a small Windows/MacOS office network * Flexible work schedule to facilitate working in a 24/7 environment * Able to work with a team, as well as independently, on various projects * Able to document procedures in a reasonable manner (internal wiki) Experience with any of these topics is a plus: * Developing tools in Python and Bash scripting languages * Network and Security Management (firewalls, SSH, VPN, DNS, DHCP) * Co-location, clustering, fault-tolerant systems * SAMBA, Windows Domains, Active Directory * Virtual Machines (Xen, VMWare, VirtualBox, UML) * Mail administration (IMAP, postfix) * NFS, automounting, NIS/YP * Tape backup hardware / Bacula * Basic web administration (httpd, wiki, etc.) * VPN configuration and secure private networks * VLANs and SNMP/RMON configuration and monitoring * Performance and Capacity monitoring (Nagios, ntop, etc.) * RAID-5/6 setup * Database admin (MySQL, Postgres) Compensation is attractive and includes an incentive bonus based on fund performance. If you are qualified and interested, please send your resume to resumes-wc at merfinllc.com If you have any questions, you can contact Chad Netzer at 925-937-4560. From cappy2112 at gmail.com Thu Jun 5 03:22:28 2008 From: cappy2112 at gmail.com (Tony Cappellini) Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2008 18:22:28 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Noah Gift's presentation slides on Command Line Tools in Python from Pycon 2008 Message-ID: <8249c4ac0806041822v4b57b2a6v6f88943d0e9052ba@mail.gmail.com> http://code.noahgift.com/pycon2008/pycon2008_cli_noahgift.pdf -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From john_re at fastmail.us Fri Jun 6 12:12:00 2008 From: john_re at fastmail.us (john_re) Date: Fri, 06 Jun 2008 03:12:00 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] ANNOUNCE: TOMORROW Sat June 7 INSTALLFEST TALKS POTLUCK, Berkeley 12N-6P Message-ID: <1212747120.7408.1257084777@webmail.messagingengine.com> Hi Pythonists. You might be especially interested in the 1-2PM Programming open discussion hour. See the "Talks" section below. Hope to see you there. =============================================================== YOU are INVITED to the 1st Berkeley BSD GNU/Linux Installfest, Talks, & Potluck. This is a FREE friendly, pleasant, fun, educational & productive event. LOCATION: EVANS HALL, or nearby, U. C. Berkeley, Berkeley, CA ROOM: Room 5 Evans Hall: Either we will meet in this room, or see directions posted there to the meeting location. (This is the building where UNIX was developed at Berkeley.) TIME: 12 Noon to 6 PM - come & leave as you like. Saturday June 7th This is the first meeting of what is planned to be a MONTHLY 1st Saturday or Sunday event. (Next month's meeting: July 5 or 6) There are 3 PARALLEL TRACKS of events: 1) INSTALLFEST Bring your computer & install BSD or GNU/Linux software. 2) TALKS Talks by various speakers 3) POTLUCK Bring $4 of food to share: eat, conversation This meeting is being coordinated through the Berkeley Unix User Group buug.org mailing list: http://www.weak.org/pipermail/buug/2008-June/thread.html http://buug.org ===== DETAILS: ============================================ === INSTALLFEST: Bring your computer & install BSD or GNU/Linux software. This is a self reliant event. Bring everything you need. Computer, monitor, keyboard, mouse, laptop, power cord, MULTI OUTLET POWER EXTENSION CORD, network cord, WIFI, install software CD (people will likely have some installation CD's, but don't count on that). For this first meeting, we _might_ NOT have any NETWORKING except through individuals CELL PHONE service. Please help clean up when through. Thank you. === TALKS: Eventually we hope to have 2-6 speakers. For this meeting, we have no planned talks. Instead, we have the following time slots reserved specifically for OPEN DISCUSSION about these TOPICS: 12N DISTRIBUTIONS - BSD's, Ubuntu Debian RH Suse etc 1P PROGRAMMING/DATABASES - Python, PERL, PHP, TCL, C/C++, Ruby, LISP, FORTRAN, COBOL, MSQL, etc. 2P VIDEOCONFERENCE testing; NETWORKING 3P BAD - Bay Area Debian MEETING. http://bad.debian.net 4P GUIs - KDE, GNOME. USER APPLICATIONS - Word Proc, Web Browser, Video, Audio 5P ORGANIZING future meetings, HOWTO: ETHICAL SPAMMING - ie how to announce to LUGs, etc. Note: Meeting Talks are ATTENDEE idea generated. Want to HEAR a talk: POST a request for speaker to the list. Know a SPEAKER: POST to the list. Speakers are CONFIRMED by an attendee guaranteeing to ATTEND that talk, POSTING that to the list, and HANDLING ARRANGEMENTS with the speaker. ---VIDEOCONFERENCE: Hopefully, this will become a WORLD WIDE SIMULTANEOUS event. We hope to LIVE VIDEO STREAM talks to other participating groups. At this meeting we might setup an IRC channel, BITP, (perhaps on freenode?). We might try to set up an audio or video streaming test. JULY tentative planned talk topic: BACKUPS See MORE TALK IDEAS BELOW, and post to the buug mail list if there is a talk you would like to HEAR or PRESENT. === POTLUCK: If you want to: BRING $4 OF FOOD TO SHARE. Eat. Enjoy conversation with other attendees. Note: The food is only brought by attendees, there is no entity paying for the food, except each attendee pays for whatever they bring. So, obviously, be respectful of others and don't eat more than the value of what you yourself brought. You can BRING: MAIN COURSE, VEGETABLES, FRUIT, SALAD, DESERT, DRINK (no alcohol, please), SNACKS. It might be helpful for the first several meetings if people brought something from MORE THAN ONE CATEGORY of item. That way there will be more variety. It's great to get something ON SALE from the grocery store. Of course, you DON'T HAVE TO BRING anything, or $4 worth of items. But, please be considerate of others, and don't eat more than the value of what you brought. Thank you. Please help clean up when through. Thank you. ===== ===== === Please RSVP % If you think you _might_ come to the ITP, please send an RSVP % message to the buug.org mailing list http://www.weak.org/mailman/listinfo/buug stating your best current estimate of the probability you'd attend on Saturday Jun 7, using probability of 25 50 75 or 100 %, & PUT your % # IN THE SUBJECT LINE OF THE MESSAGE. Thank you. (Equation between probability % and english language concepts: 25 = small possibility 50 = maybe 75 = more likely than not 100 = definitely ) This will help us as a guide to planning. Thank you. Note: It is NOT NECESSARY to RSVP %, but would be helpful to us. If you aren't able to or didn't send an RSVP % message, please DO ATTEND. Here is a good subject line to use for your RSVP %: June 7 ITP RSVP %=## === DIRECTIONS: http://maps.google.com/maps?f=d&hl=en&geocode=&saddr=&daddr=37.873592,-122.257807&mra=mi&mrsp=0&sz=16&sll=37.873625,-122.257807&sspn=0.008825,0.012703&ie=UTF8&t=h&z=16 CAR: 580/80 Eastshore Freeway to Berkeley, University Ave. exit, up University to UCB. BART: Berkeley Downtown exit. Walk or Campus bus to Hearst Mining Circle. On Saturday there might be some on campus parking, but there is off campus street parking, and a big pay parking lot at the corner of Hearst & Gayley, at the Northeast corner of campus. You can drive to Evans Hall to unload something from your car. Evans Hall is at B5 in this map: http://www.berkeley.edu/map/maps/large_map.html === CARPOOLING: A GREAT IDEA! Post a request or announcement to the list. http://www.weak.org/mailman/listinfo/buug Here are handy email subject lines: CARPOOLING Ride WANTED from xyz Sat June 7 CARPOOLING Ride OFFERRED from xyz Sat June 7 === MORE TALK IDEAS: For the 1st meeting some talk possibilities are: 0) ETHICAL SPAMMING - Howto send announcement emails automatically to many group email lists. - Do you know how to do this? CAN YOU GIVE AN INFORMAL HOWTO TALK ABOUT THIS at the JUNE MEETING? 1) Difference between Ubuntu8.4 & Debian 2) OLPC - Sugar OS project 3) Google Summer of Code - how you can help 4) PGP & personal keysigning 5) Mozilla 3 - the beta's features & how to help - the "show me the code" session? 6) Python08 conference highlights 7) LinuxPicnic (in SiValley) preparations/planning/how to help 8) LinuxWorld Expo San Francisco group booths What other topics are HOT now & would be good to have talks on? What would YOU like to HEAR a talk on? Would YOU like to GIVE a talk? What SUBJECT? === FEEL FREE TO SEND THIS ANNOUNCEMENT TO ANY RELEVANT LISTS/PEOPLE. Thank you. I hope to see you there. :) -- http://www.fastmail.fm - A fast, anti-spam email service. From jim at well.com Sat Jun 7 18:39:22 2008 From: jim at well.com (jim) Date: Sat, 07 Jun 2008 09:39:22 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] This weekend -- A Beginners' Class Message-ID: <1212856762.20205.284.camel@ubuntu> This weekend is a 2-day hands-on lab class to learn how to program. This class is for people, all ages, who have never programmed before. We'll be practicing a few powerful engineering concepts and using Python. It'll be fun. http://www.ucsc-extension.edu/ucsc/public/category/courseDetails.do?method=load&courseId=3576274&selectedCategoryId=1000075&selectedProgramAreaId=1000171&selectedProgramStreamId=1528553 Thanks from the instructor, Marilyn Davis From walterv at gbbservices.com Tue Jun 10 00:28:32 2008 From: walterv at gbbservices.com (Walter Vannini) Date: Mon, 09 Jun 2008 15:28:32 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] ACCU meeting on Wednesday 'Google App Engine' Message-ID: <484DAE90.8040207@gbbservices.com> Feel free to forward this notice to anyone who is interested. When: Wednesday, June 11, 2008 Topic: Google App Engine: your apps, Google infrastructure Speaker: Ryan Barrett Time: 6:30pm doors open 7:00pm meeting begins Where: Symantec VCAFE building 350 Ellis Street (near E. Middlefield Road) Mountain View, CA 94043 Map: Directions: VCAFE is accessible from the semicircular courtyard between Symantec buildings Cost: Free More Info: Google App Engine represents the first steps in opening the Google server infrastructure to external web applications. In this talk you will learn about the building blocks and APIs of Google App Engine and learn in what ways it is similar and different to developing LAMP web applications. There may also be a demonstration of constructing a web application for Google App Engine using the first supported language - Python. Ryan Barrett is the lead engineer on the Google App Engine datastore. He's a systems engineer at heart who happened to get sidetracked into making webapps scale. Before App Engine, Ryan worked on transaction processing, database sharing, distributed and grid computing, and network protocols. Outside of work, Ryan contributes to open source projects. ---- The ACCU meets monthly. To suggest topics and speakers please email Walter Vannini via walterv at gbbservices.com From jim at well.com Tue Jun 10 06:15:17 2008 From: jim at well.com (jim) Date: Mon, 09 Jun 2008 21:15:17 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] bayPIGgies meeting Thursday June 12--Alex Martelli on callbacks, 7:30 PM Message-ID: <1213071317.6307.22.camel@ubuntu> bayPIGgies meeting Thursday 6/12: Don't call us, we'll call you: callback patterns and idioms in Python Callbacks (the general "Don't call us, we'll call you" pattern) are a crucial technique for concurrency, event-drivenprogramming (in a disparate variety of fields, from GUIs to parsing), and advanced customization of library and system behavior. This talk covers callback patterns and idioms, their use in the Standard Python library, and best practices in designing and using callback-based interfaces. This talk will be a variant on Alex' Pycon 2008 talk. see http://us.pycon.org/2008/conference/talks/?search=Callbacks ...: Location: Google Campus Building 42, the Parimaribo room (second floor) check in at the lobby in bldg 43 bayPIGgies meeting information: http://baypiggies.net/new/plone * Please sign up in advance to have your google access badge ready: http://wiki.python.org/moin/BayPiggiesGoogleMeetings (no later than close of business on Wednesday.) Agenda ..... 7:30 PM ........................... General hubbub, inventory end-of-meeting announcements, any first-minute announcements. ..... 7:35 PM to 8:45 PM ................ The Talk ..... 8:45 PM to 9:00 PM or After The Talk ................ Mapping and Random Access Mapping is a rapid-fire audience announcement of topics the announcers are interested in. Random Access follows immediately to allow follow up individually on the announcements and other topics of interest. ..... Thursday, July 10 ................ 7:30 PM BayPIGgies Niall O'Higgins p2p quantitive analysis and asynchronous BitTorrent implementation in Python and C ..... Thursday, August 14 ................ 7:30 PM BayPIGgies Steven Knight on SCons From spmcinerney at hotmail.com Tue Jun 10 08:28:33 2008 From: spmcinerney at hotmail.com (Stephen McInerney) Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2008 23:28:33 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Python fn for Pascal's coefficient? Message-ID: Sorry to ask such a basic question, but I searched and I can't find a function for Pascal's coefficient, either in standard Python, SciPy or NumPy. Thanks, Stephen _________________________________________________________________ Enjoy 5 GB of free, password-protected online storage. http://www.windowslive.com/skydrive/overview.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_Refresh_skydrive_062008 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From afife at untangle.com Tue Jun 10 08:19:05 2008 From: afife at untangle.com (Andrew Fife) Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2008 23:19:05 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Baypiggies] Andrew Morton @ BALUG (New Date = 6/24) Message-ID: <009e01c8cac1$e8e46440$4101a8c0@afmeatloaf> Howdy Folks: BALUG is very proud to host Andrew Morton as our speaker on Tuesday, June 24th. (PLEASE NOTE: this is not our regular meeting date... There will be NO MEETING on the 3rd Tuesday) Andrew Morton is a lead linux kernel developer and a key kernel maintainer. Andrew Morton is curious what you want to hear him speak about, so please let us know if you have any questions for him. More on Andrew Morton here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrew_Morton_(computer_programmer) If you'd like to come, please RSVP: RSVP at balug.org ===Why RSVP?=== RSVPs are really important to BALUG, but don't worry we won't turn you away if you forget or decide to come last minute. However, if we don't have enough RSVPs by the Friday before the meeting, we won't be able to eat buffet style in the private banquet room upstairs. It's a much nicer meeting to have the upstairs banquet room, so please RSVP early... Why not now? Meeting Details... 6:30pm June 24th, 2008 (Tuesday) Four Seas Restaurant 731 Grant Ave. San Francisco, CA 94108 Easy $5 Parking: http://www.portsmouthsquaregarage.com/ Cost = $13 for dinner, but the meeting itself is free Upcoming 2008 speakers include: July - Mike Linksyaver (Creative Commons) Aug - TBD Sept - Ian Murdock (Debian & Sun) Signup for BALUG's extremely low volume announce list: http://lists.balug.org/listinfo.cgi/balug-announce-balug.org About BALUG: ------------ BALUG is lively gathering of Linux users & free software enthusiasts that combines great food, community & intimate access to featured speakers. We meet in the bar of the Four Seas Restaurant from 6:30pm. At 7pm, we share a family-style Chinese dinner, which is followed by our guest speaker. BALUG Mailing list Policy: -------------------------- BALUG promises not to abuse other LUGs mailing lists. Our current policy is to make one monthly announcement on other Bay Area LUGs mailing lists. On high volume lists, we may also post a reminder. If you feel this is not appropriate for a particular list, please tell us which list and what you feel would be a more appropriate policy for that list. We are very open to this feedback. Please send feedback to balug-contact at balug.org. -- Andrew Fife Untangle - The Open Source Network Gateway www.untangle.com/download 650.425.3327 desk 415.806.6028 cell -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mrbmahoney at gmail.com Tue Jun 10 15:31:23 2008 From: mrbmahoney at gmail.com (Brian Mahoney) Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2008 06:31:23 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Dinner Announcement - Thursday, June 12, 6 pm Message-ID: <5538c19b0806100631w5bc25ebbl9a199f03864cab3f@mail.gmail.com> For Thursday, June 12, I can coordinate a pre-meeting dinner in Mountain View, before the BayPIGgies meeting at Google . Restaurant reservations may be sent to my email until Thursday afternoon (earlier is better). We eat family-style, there are vegetarian and non-vegetarian dishes. Cost around $10 per person, including tax and tip. Bring cash, please. Start dinner at 6pm and I will keep things moving so that we finish and get everyone headed towards Google to complete sign-in before the 7:30 meeting start. The restaurant is Cafe Yulong in downtown Mountain View (650) 960-1677 743 W Dana Street, 1/2 block from Castro where Books, Inc is on the corner. Parking lots all around, but downtown Mountain View parking can be difficult. It is a slightly out of the ordinary Chinese restaurant. This link has a downtown map and additional information. http://www.mountainviewca.net/restaurants/cafeyulong.html I've made reservations under "Python" for 6pm Thursday. If you wish to join us for dinner please e-mail me by 3 pm Thursday (earlier is better) so I may confirm the headcount. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From millman at berkeley.edu Tue Jun 10 23:11:46 2008 From: millman at berkeley.edu (Jarrod Millman) Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2008 14:11:46 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] ANN: SciPy 2008 Conference Message-ID: Greetings, The SciPy 2008 Conference website is now open: http://conference.scipy.org This year's conference will be at Caltech from August 19-24: Tutorials: August 19-20 (Tuesday and Wednesday) Conference: August 21-22 (Thursday and Friday) Sprints: August 23-24 (Saturday and Sunday) Exciting things are happening in the Python community, and the SciPy 2008 Conference is an excellent opportunity to exchange ideas, learn techniques, contribute code and affect the direction of scientific computing (or just to learn what all the fuss is about). We'll be announcing the Keynote Speaker and providing a detailed schedule in the coming weeks. This year we are asking presenters to submit short papers to be included in the conference proceedings: http://conference.scipy.org/call_for_papers Cheers, -- Jarrod Millman Computational Infrastructure for Research Labs 10 Giannini Hall, UC Berkeley phone: 510.643.4014 http://cirl.berkeley.edu/ From echerlin at gmail.com Tue Jun 10 23:29:46 2008 From: echerlin at gmail.com (Edward Cherlin) Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2008 14:29:46 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] ANN: SciPy 2008 Conference In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thanks. I am the chairbeing of the Bay Area PyCon2010 bid, one of three proposals. My Number 1 is Aahz, who lists himself on the PyCon wiki page for our bid as "border collie". I would like to see how we might work together on our respective processes. I will be talking to OLPC about a booth at SciPy2008, and I will submit a proposal for a session on SciPy applications in education on the OLPC XO and its successors. For example, we have digital oscilloscope software in both time and frequency domain on the XO in the Measure activity, and we are considering how to do scientific visualizations in electronic textbooks. Alan Kay has a demo of a sequence of guided explorations in Smalltalk (Etoys) and with the built-in video camera that has proven successful at introducing calculus concepts and Galilean gravity with uniform acceleration to 10-year-olds. PyCon would love to have a good turnout of SciPy users for the conference itself and for the coding sprints that will come after, and I will be happy to recruit attendees for your conference from up here and elsewhere. On Tue, Jun 10, 2008 at 2:11 PM, Jarrod Millman wrote: > Greetings, > > The SciPy 2008 Conference website is now open: http://conference.scipy.org > > This year's conference will be at Caltech from August 19-24: > > Tutorials: August 19-20 (Tuesday and Wednesday) > Conference: August 21-22 (Thursday and Friday) > Sprints: August 23-24 (Saturday and Sunday) > > Exciting things are happening in the Python community, and the SciPy > 2008 Conference is an excellent opportunity to exchange ideas, learn > techniques, contribute code and affect the direction of scientific > computing (or just to learn what all the fuss is about). We'll be > announcing the Keynote Speaker and providing a detailed schedule in > the coming weeks. > > This year we are asking presenters to submit short papers to be included > in the conference proceedings: http://conference.scipy.org/call_for_papers > > Cheers, > > -- > Jarrod Millman > Computational Infrastructure for Research Labs > 10 Giannini Hall, UC Berkeley > phone: 510.643.4014 > http://cirl.berkeley.edu/ > _______________________________________________ > Baypiggies mailing list > Baypiggies at python.org > To change your subscription options or unsubscribe: > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies > -- Edward Cherlin End Poverty at a Profit by teaching children business http://www.EarthTreasury.org/ "The best way to predict the future is to invent it."--Alan Kay From walterv at gbbservices.com Wed Jun 11 19:37:18 2008 From: walterv at gbbservices.com (Walter Vannini) Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2008 10:37:18 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] ACCU meeting tonight 'Google App Engine' Message-ID: <48500D4E.2010407@gbbservices.com> Feel free to forward this notice to anyone who is interested. When: Wednesday, June 11, 2008 Topic: Google App Engine: your apps, Google infrastructure Speaker: Ryan Barrett Time: 6:30pm doors open 7:00pm meeting begins Where: Symantec VCAFE building 350 Ellis Street (near E. Middlefield Road) Mountain View, CA 94043 Map: Directions: VCAFE is accessible from the semicircular courtyard between Symantec buildings Cost: Free More Info: Google App Engine represents the first steps in opening the Google server infrastructure to external web applications. In this talk you will learn about the building blocks and APIs of Google App Engine and learn in what ways it is similar and different to developing LAMP web applications. There may also be a demonstration of constructing a web application for Google App Engine using the first supported language - Python. Ryan Barrett is the lead engineer on the Google App Engine datastore. He's a systems engineer at heart who happened to get sidetracked into making webapps scale. Before App Engine, Ryan worked on transaction processing, database sharing, distributed and grid computing, and network protocols. Outside of work, Ryan contributes to open source projects. ---- The ACCU meets monthly. To suggest topics and speakers please email Walter Vannini via walterv at gbbservices.com From allyourcode at gmail.com Wed Jun 11 23:40:35 2008 From: allyourcode at gmail.com (Daniel Wong) Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2008 14:40:35 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] anyone in Berkeley headed to the meeting tomorrow? Message-ID: <7c8225f20806111440p72f152f1mbf938cd7ddb7651a@mail.gmail.com> Hi, If anyone in/around Berkeley doesn't mind giving me a ride down to the meeting tomorrow, I'd appreciate it. Daniel From john_re at fastmail.us Thu Jun 12 11:39:48 2008 From: john_re at fastmail.us (john_re) Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2008 02:39:48 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Carpool from Berkeley offered- was: Re: anyone in Berkeley headed to the meeting tomorrow? In-Reply-To: <7c8225f20806111440p72f152f1mbf938cd7ddb7651a@mail.gmail.com> References: <7c8225f20806111440p72f152f1mbf938cd7ddb7651a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1213263589.20776.1258070887@webmail.messagingengine.com> Anyone willing to split gas & bridge toll, I can give you a ride down from Berkeley. Email me your phone #. On Wed, 11 Jun 2008 14:40:35 -0700, "Daniel Wong" said: > Hi, > > If anyone in/around Berkeley doesn't mind giving me a ride down to the > meeting tomorrow, I'd appreciate it. > > Daniel -- http://www.fastmail.fm - Does exactly what it says on the tin From slander at unworkable.org Thu Jun 12 19:31:54 2008 From: slander at unworkable.org (Harry Tormey) Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2008 18:31:54 +0100 Subject: [Baypiggies] PyGameSF meetup Monday June 16th 7pm @ Metreon San Francisco Message-ID: <20080612173154.GC7607@unworkable.org> Hi All, just writing to say that this months PyGameSF meet up is on Monday June 16th from 7pm at the Metreon food court in San Francisco. This month's presentations are: - Tim Thompson (http://nosuch.com/tjt/index.html) "Artistic Mashups with Python and VST/Freeframe Plugins." This talk will discuss the use of Python with audio and video plugin technology in several art installations. Radio Free Quasar was an installation that used Python as a VST host, chaining VST plugins to mangle audio. Finger Painting with Planets is an installation that uses Python to simulate gravity and draw graphics from within a chain of Freeframe plugins that mangle video. - Andrew Turley "Building Digital Instruments with Pure Data". This talk will discuss how to use Pure Data to get input via your PC/Mac from strange input devices like guitar hero controllers. PyGame SF is an informal group meet up in San Francisco for Software engineers interested in python, OpenGL, audio, pygame, SDL, programming and generally anything to do with multimedia development. The format of our meetings typically involve several people giving presentations on projects they are developing followed by group discussion and feedback. If anyone else would like to give a micro presentation, show demos or just talk about what they are doing or generally give examples of any relevant software they are working on please feel free to head along. To subscribe to the pygamesf mailing list simply email pygame-sf+subscribe at unworkable.org -Harry From spmcinerney at hotmail.com Fri Jun 13 02:19:59 2008 From: spmcinerney at hotmail.com (Stephen McInerney) Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2008 17:19:59 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Python deployment tools [Fwd from python(x,y) list] In-Reply-To: References: <377994f8-b607-4d99-8aba-7905d5b0b761@t54g2000hsg.googlegroups.com> Message-ID: I'm forwarding this post from python(x,y) list so anyone with expertise with deployment tools can comment to them (to contact at pythonxy.com or their entire list pythonxy at googlegroups.com ). FYI python(x,y) is a nicely packaged distribution of Python + Eclipse + scientific + plotting packages + MinGW. Currently only for Windows but Linux may be coming. And the maintainer gives a very fast turnaround, is very responsive to suggestions, and constantly revises updates on the individual subpackages. A big two thumbs up. Regards, Stephen > Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2008 14:30:14 -0700> Subject: [python(x,y)] Re: deployment tools> From: contact at pythonxy.com> To: pythonxy at googlegroups.com> > > Hi Tony,> > I did some tests on the three most popular deployment tools for> Python : py2exe, PyInstaller and Cx Freeze.> > py2exe seems to be the more appropriate for Python(x,y): I> successfully converted a whole PyQt-Matplotlib application into a> stand-alone Windows executable, and it worked fine on a clean Windows> (running on a virtual machine). It is very easy to use, now that I> found the two or three tips to avoid converting errors.> (For the record : PyInstaller doesn't deal with Python path including> space characters, and Cx_Freeze need a patch as well as a lot of> options to get rid of converting error when dealing with Qt/matplotlib-> based applications)> > So py2exe with documentation and an example (with the tips mentioned> above) will be included in the next Python(x,y) release.> > Pierre> > > On 12 juin, 23:17, Tony wrote:> > Hi all,> >> > small feature request.> >> > I think it would be a really good idea to include deployment tools in> > Python(x,y). So I can get my applications running on other machines> > very quickly.> >> > Cheers> > Tony _________________________________________________________________ Now you can invite friends from Facebook and other groups to join you on Windows Live? Messenger. Add now. https://www.invite2messenger.net/im/?source=TXT_EML_WLH_AddNow_Now -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jim at well.com Fri Jun 13 15:32:35 2008 From: jim at well.com (jim) Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2008 06:32:35 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] aleax URL for callback talk of thursday 20080612 Message-ID: <1213363955.6307.168.camel@ubuntu> http://www.aleax.it/bayp_cback.pdf for those who wished they'd written it down. From Tim.Norman at dreamworks.com Fri Jun 13 19:03:02 2008 From: Tim.Norman at dreamworks.com (Norman, Tim) Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2008 10:03:02 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Dreamworks Animation is Looking for top Pipeline Engineers. . . . Message-ID: <57E24B0263A3594EB66EEABC419CA4071565C4E4E1@EXCLUSGLD1.win.dreamworks.com> Hello, All. Dreamworks Animation's Production Engineering group designs, implements, and maintains software that "glues" together the software and data used in the creation of animated feature films. Production engineers understand the entire computer animation process and use that knowledge to develop the DreamWorks global animation pipeline. As a production engineer, you will: * Enhance, modify, and redesign the systems to accommodate the ever-changing requirements of production * Interact with animators and technical directors to solve technical production issues Your software development experience should include: * Large software systems * Extensive scripting in Python or Perl (preferably both) * Object oriented C++ experience * UNIX/Linux development * Experience with the Maya API/Plug-ins or Houdini * Shell scripting (csh, tcsh, sh) ability * Knowledge of relational database concepts * System administration skills You must have achieved at least a bachelors degree in computer science. A masters is preferred. Please let me know if you are interested. Thanks Tim- Tim Norman Dreamworks Animation Ph 818. 695. 7801 Fax 818. 695. 6210 www.dreamworksanimation.com [http://www.kungfupanda.com/download/signature/sig_po.gif] -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From aahz at pythoncraft.com Fri Jun 13 21:50:08 2008 From: aahz at pythoncraft.com (Aahz) Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2008 12:50:08 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Dreamworks Animation is Looking for top Pipeline Engineers. . . . In-Reply-To: <57E24B0263A3594EB66EEABC419CA4071565C4E4E1@EXCLUSGLD1.win.dreamworks.com> References: <57E24B0263A3594EB66EEABC419CA4071565C4E4E1@EXCLUSGLD1.win.dreamworks.com> Message-ID: <20080613195008.GA28966@panix.com> You don't say where these jobs are located and 818 is San Fernando Valley; job postings on baypiggies should only be for the Bay Area. See http://baypiggies.net/jobs.html On Fri, Jun 13, 2008, Norman, Tim wrote: > > Hello, All. > > Dreamworks Animation's Production Engineering group designs, implements, and maintains software that "glues" together the software and data used in the creation of animated feature films. Production engineers understand the entire computer animation process and use that knowledge to develop the DreamWorks global animation pipeline. > > As a production engineer, you will: > * Enhance, modify, and redesign the systems to accommodate the ever-changing requirements of production > * Interact with animators and technical directors to solve technical production issues > > Your software development experience should include: > * Large software systems > * Extensive scripting in Python or Perl (preferably both) > * Object oriented C++ experience > * UNIX/Linux development > * Experience with the Maya API/Plug-ins or Houdini > * Shell scripting (csh, tcsh, sh) ability > * Knowledge of relational database concepts > * System administration skills > > You must have achieved at least a bachelors degree in computer science. > A masters is preferred. > > Please let me know if you are interested. Thanks > > Tim- > > > Tim Norman > Dreamworks Animation > Ph 818. 695. 7801 > Fax 818. 695. 6210 > www.dreamworksanimation.com > > [http://www.kungfupanda.com/download/signature/sig_po.gif] > > _______________________________________________ > Baypiggies mailing list > Baypiggies at python.org > To change your subscription options or unsubscribe: > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies -- Aahz (aahz at pythoncraft.com) <*> http://www.pythoncraft.com/ "as long as we like the same operating system, things are cool." --piranha From Tim.Norman at dreamworks.com Fri Jun 13 21:56:12 2008 From: Tim.Norman at dreamworks.com (Norman, Tim) Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2008 12:56:12 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Dreamworks Animation is Looking for top Pipeline Engineers. . . . In-Reply-To: <20080613195008.GA28966@panix.com> Message-ID: <57E24B0263A3594EB66EEABC419CA4071565C4E4E9@EXCLUSGLD1.win.dreamworks.com> You are correct! Thanks for pointing that out. PDI/Dreamworks Animation is located in Redwood City, California, just south of San Francisco. Tim- Tim Norman Dreamworks Animation Ph 818. 695. 7801 Fax 818. 695. 6210 www.dreamworksanimation.com -----Original Message----- From: Aahz [mailto:aahz at pythoncraft.com] Sent: Friday, June 13, 2008 12:50 PM To: Norman, Tim Cc: baypiggies at python.org Subject: Re: [Baypiggies] Dreamworks Animation is Looking for top Pipeline Engineers. . . . You don't say where these jobs are located and 818 is San Fernando Valley; job postings on baypiggies should only be for the Bay Area. See http://baypiggies.net/jobs.html On Fri, Jun 13, 2008, Norman, Tim wrote: > > Hello, All. > > Dreamworks Animation's Production Engineering group designs, implements, and maintains software that "glues" together the software and data used in the creation of animated feature films. Production engineers understand the entire computer animation process and use that knowledge to develop the DreamWorks global animation pipeline. > > As a production engineer, you will: > * Enhance, modify, and redesign the systems to accommodate the ever-changing requirements of production > * Interact with animators and technical directors to solve technical production issues > > Your software development experience should include: > * Large software systems > * Extensive scripting in Python or Perl (preferably both) > * Object oriented C++ experience > * UNIX/Linux development > * Experience with the Maya API/Plug-ins or Houdini > * Shell scripting (csh, tcsh, sh) ability > * Knowledge of relational database concepts > * System administration skills > > You must have achieved at least a bachelors degree in computer science. > A masters is preferred. > > Please let me know if you are interested. Thanks > > Tim- > > > Tim Norman > Dreamworks Animation > Ph 818. 695. 7801 > Fax 818. 695. 6210 > www.dreamworksanimation.com > > [http://www.kungfupanda.com/download/signature/sig_po.gif] > > _______________________________________________ > Baypiggies mailing list > Baypiggies at python.org > To change your subscription options or unsubscribe: > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies -- Aahz (aahz at pythoncraft.com) <*> http://www.pythoncraft.com/ "as long as we like the same operating system, things are cool." --piranha From d_berthelot at yahoo.com Fri Jun 13 22:32:09 2008 From: d_berthelot at yahoo.com (David Berthelot) Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2008 13:32:09 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Baypiggies] Problem with freeze.py and numpy Message-ID: <126744.46676.qm@web52106.mail.re2.yahoo.com> So I'm trying to make an executable out of a python script: #!/usr/bin/env python import numpy as N print N.array((1,2,3),'f') When I freeze it using the freeze.py utility shipped with Python distribution: {path_to_freeze}/freeze.py test.py it complains about modules not being found (typically *.so dynamic modules) I make a build: make Now I run the "./test" and sure enough it complains about multiarray not being found since it's a dynamic module. So next I copied multiarray.so to the local directory and updated LD_LIBRARY_PATH to point to the local directory. However it doesn't help. Has anyone traveled that same path or has any ideas on how to debug/solve this issue ? Thanks, David From bdbaddog at gmail.com Fri Jun 13 19:50:09 2008 From: bdbaddog at gmail.com (William Deegan) Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2008 10:50:09 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Jobs posted as comments on baypiggies.net Message-ID: <8540148a0806131050n3a562a0fh986eca7fa00597e4@mail.gmail.com> All, Is this considered o.k.? Should they be removed? -Bill -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From donnamsnow at gmail.com Fri Jun 13 22:51:23 2008 From: donnamsnow at gmail.com (Donna Snow) Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2008 13:51:23 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Jobs posted as comments on baypiggies.net In-Reply-To: <8540148a0806131050n3a562a0fh986eca7fa00597e4@mail.gmail.com> References: <8540148a0806131050n3a562a0fh986eca7fa00597e4@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Bill, I would turn off comments on home page but find somewhere else for job postings..seems it's a popular spot. If you need help..let me know. Donna (who will be at Arizona State University next week providing Plone training) On Fri, Jun 13, 2008 at 10:50 AM, William Deegan wrote: > All, > > Is this considered o.k.? > > Should they be removed? > > -Bill > > _______________________________________________ > Baypiggies mailing list > Baypiggies at python.org > To change your subscription options or unsubscribe: > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From donnamsnow at gmail.com Fri Jun 13 22:53:09 2008 From: donnamsnow at gmail.com (Donna Snow) Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2008 13:53:09 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Jobs posted as comments on baypiggies.net In-Reply-To: <8540148a0806131050n3a562a0fh986eca7fa00597e4@mail.gmail.com> References: <8540148a0806131050n3a562a0fh986eca7fa00597e4@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Bill, I would turn off comments on home page but find somewhere else for job postings..seems it's a popular spot. If you need help..let me know. Donna (who will be at Arizona State University next week providing Plone training) On Fri, Jun 13, 2008 at 10:50 AM, William Deegan wrote: > All, > > Is this considered o.k.? > > Should they be removed? > > -Bill > > _______________________________________________ > Baypiggies mailing list > Baypiggies at python.org > To change your subscription options or unsubscribe: > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spmcinerney at hotmail.com Fri Jun 13 23:42:43 2008 From: spmcinerney at hotmail.com (Stephen McInerney) Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2008 14:42:43 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Jobs posted as comments on baypiggies.net In-Reply-To: <8540148a0806131050n3a562a0fh986eca7fa00597e4@mail.gmail.com> References: <8540148a0806131050n3a562a0fh986eca7fa00597e4@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Personally it's fine by me; prefer that the principal is posting.There was discussion a while back of splitting off a separate baypiggies-jobs list, which people could optionally subscribe to, folks did not support that at the time but it seems the volume has recently exploded so maybe it's time to revisit that. Stephen Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2008 10:50:09 -0700From: bdbaddog at gmail.comTo: baypiggies at python.orgSubject: [Baypiggies] Jobs posted as comments on baypiggies.netAll,Is this considered o.k.?Should they be removed?-Bill _________________________________________________________________ Enjoy 5 GB of free, password-protected online storage. http://www.windowslive.com/skydrive/overview.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_Refresh_skydrive_062008 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From aahz at pythoncraft.com Sat Jun 14 00:04:15 2008 From: aahz at pythoncraft.com (Aahz) Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2008 15:04:15 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Jobs posted as comments on baypiggies.net In-Reply-To: References: <8540148a0806131050n3a562a0fh986eca7fa00597e4@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20080613220415.GA14616@panix.com> On Fri, Jun 13, 2008, Stephen McInerney wrote: > > Personally it's fine by me; prefer that the principal is > posting.There was discussion a while back of splitting off a separate > baypiggies-jobs list, which people could optionally subscribe to, > folks did not support that at the time but it seems the volume has > recently exploded so maybe it's time to revisit that. "Exploded"? Are we averaging more than one per day? Unless we're above that average *and* people are complaining, I don't think we should even bother discussing it. -- Aahz (aahz at pythoncraft.com) <*> http://www.pythoncraft.com/ "as long as we like the same operating system, things are cool." --piranha From bdbaddog at gmail.com Sat Jun 14 00:10:10 2008 From: bdbaddog at gmail.com (William Deegan) Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2008 15:10:10 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Jobs posted as comments on baypiggies.net In-Reply-To: <20080613220415.GA14616@panix.com> References: <8540148a0806131050n3a562a0fh986eca7fa00597e4@mail.gmail.com> <20080613220415.GA14616@panix.com> Message-ID: <8540148a0806131510k3f0468fcl51635af9965a7e25@mail.gmail.com> On Fri, Jun 13, 2008 at 3:04 PM, Aahz wrote: > On Fri, Jun 13, 2008, Stephen McInerney wrote: > > > > Personally it's fine by me; prefer that the principal is > > posting.There was discussion a while back of splitting off a separate > > baypiggies-jobs list, which people could optionally subscribe to, > > folks did not support that at the time but it seems the volume has > > recently exploded so maybe it's time to revisit that. > > "Exploded"? Are we averaging more than one per day? Unless we're above > that average *and* people are complaining, I don't think we should even > bother discussing it. > Yeah. I'd agree. Might be worth adding jobs posting page on site, and getting them out of comments on home page though. Assuming I can figure out how to do that.. :) -Bill -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jjinux at gmail.com Sat Jun 14 00:11:10 2008 From: jjinux at gmail.com (Shannon -jj Behrens) Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2008 15:11:10 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Jobs posted as comments on baypiggies.net In-Reply-To: <20080613220415.GA14616@panix.com> References: <8540148a0806131050n3a562a0fh986eca7fa00597e4@mail.gmail.com> <20080613220415.GA14616@panix.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Jun 13, 2008 at 3:04 PM, Aahz wrote: > On Fri, Jun 13, 2008, Stephen McInerney wrote: >> >> Personally it's fine by me; prefer that the principal is >> posting.There was discussion a while back of splitting off a separate >> baypiggies-jobs list, which people could optionally subscribe to, >> folks did not support that at the time but it seems the volume has >> recently exploded so maybe it's time to revisit that. > > "Exploded"? Are we averaging more than one per day? Unless we're above > that average *and* people are complaining, I don't think we should even > bother discussing it. >.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies Thanks for bringing this up, William. I think: * We need to move the content from http://baypiggies.net/jobs.html somewhere into Plone. * The policy for posting jobs to the Web site should be the same as for posting to the mailing list. * There should be a place for such postings. It should not be on the home page, but it should be linked to from the home page. My $0.02, -jj -- I, for one, welcome our new Facebook overlords! http://jjinux.blogspot.com/ From anevare2 at yahoo.com Sun Jun 15 20:09:44 2008 From: anevare2 at yahoo.com (Al Nevarez) Date: Sun, 15 Jun 2008 11:09:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Baypiggies] Preserving integers when loading a file into a list Message-ID: <694940.43564.qm@web55406.mail.re4.yahoo.com> Hello, What's the best way to preserve integers when loading a file into a list? for example.. assume we have a tab delimited file that looks like this: A 1 B 2 C three I have a line in my program to read that file in like this: my_data=[line.strip().split(' ') for line in file(data_file,'rU')] the result in my_data is: [['A', '1'], ['B','2'], ['C','three']] But I need my_data to be like this: [['A', 1], ['B',2], ['C','three']] Needs to be automatic.. i.e. I'm not sure ahead of time, which if any value anywhere will be a string or an integer. Thanks! Al From adam at hupp.org Sun Jun 15 20:24:48 2008 From: adam at hupp.org (Adam Hupp) Date: Sun, 15 Jun 2008 11:24:48 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Preserving integers when loading a file into a list In-Reply-To: <694940.43564.qm@web55406.mail.re4.yahoo.com> References: <694940.43564.qm@web55406.mail.re4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <766a29bd0806151124j41a1c2dpe91799ca1526189f@mail.gmail.com> You'll need a function that attempts integer conversion and returns the original value if it fails: def try_int_convert(sval): try: return int(sval) except ValueError: return sval And then you can run the second column through that function: result = [] for i in file(data_file,'rU'): splat = i.rstrip().split() result.append((splat[0], try_int_convert(splat[1]))) On Sun, Jun 15, 2008 at 11:09 AM, Al Nevarez wrote: > Hello, > What's the best way to preserve integers when loading a file into a list? > > for example.. assume we have a tab delimited file that looks like this: > A 1 > B 2 > C three > > I have a line in my program to read that file in like this: > > my_data=[line.strip().split(' ') for line in file(data_file,'rU')] > > the result in my_data is: > [['A', '1'], ['B','2'], ['C','three']] > > But I need my_data to be like this: > [['A', 1], ['B',2], ['C','three']] > > Needs to be automatic.. i.e. I'm not sure ahead of time, which if any value anywhere will be a string or an integer. > > Thanks! > Al > > > > _______________________________________________ > Baypiggies mailing list > Baypiggies at python.org > To change your subscription options or unsubscribe: > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies > -- Adam Hupp | http://hupp.org/adam/ From bpederse at gmail.com Sun Jun 15 20:43:08 2008 From: bpederse at gmail.com (Brent Pedersen) Date: Sun, 15 Jun 2008 11:43:08 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Preserving integers when loading a file into a list In-Reply-To: <694940.43564.qm@web55406.mail.re4.yahoo.com> References: <694940.43564.qm@web55406.mail.re4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: hi, you can use the isdigit() method on a string. $ cat stuff.txt 1 a 2 b b b a 2 4 0 0 0 >>> for line in open('stuff.txt'): ... [not x.isdigit() and x or int(x) for x in line.strip().split()] [1, 'a', 2] ['b', 'b', 'b'] ['a', 2, 4] [0, 0, 0] 2 4 c On Sun, Jun 15, 2008 at 11:09 AM, Al Nevarez wrote: > Hello, > What's the best way to preserve integers when loading a file into a list? > > for example.. assume we have a tab delimited file that looks like this: > A 1 > B 2 > C three > > I have a line in my program to read that file in like this: > > my_data=[line.strip().split(' ') for line in file(data_file,'rU')] > > the result in my_data is: > [['A', '1'], ['B','2'], ['C','three']] > > But I need my_data to be like this: > [['A', 1], ['B',2], ['C','three']] > > Needs to be automatic.. i.e. I'm not sure ahead of time, which if any value anywhere will be a string or an integer. > > Thanks! > Al > > > > _______________________________________________ > Baypiggies mailing list > Baypiggies at python.org > To change your subscription options or unsubscribe: > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies > From jason at mischievous.org Sun Jun 15 21:31:54 2008 From: jason at mischievous.org (Jason Culverhouse) Date: Sun, 15 Jun 2008 12:31:54 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Preserving integers when loading a file into a list In-Reply-To: References: <694940.43564.qm@web55406.mail.re4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <5C7474F5-4890-4C4A-ABE2-E1C921C8C8CF@mischievous.org> not x.isdigit() and x or int(x) is going to fail for empty string... '' not False and '' or int('') <-value error since You could combine Adam's try_int_convert import csv import functools import sys i = functools.partial(map, try_int_convert) # maybe convert a list to int t = functools.partial(tuple) # convert to tuple, not sure if you need the in tuples #Read a TSV file from stdin and convert [t(i(line)) for line in csv.reader(sys.stdin, dialect='excel-tab')] Jason On Jun 15, 2008, at 11:43 AM, Brent Pedersen wrote: > hi, you can use the isdigit() method on a string. > > $ cat stuff.txt > 1 a 2 > b b b > a 2 4 > 0 0 0 > > >>>> for line in open('stuff.txt'): > ... [not x.isdigit() and x or int(x) for x in > line.strip().split()] > [1, 'a', 2] > ['b', 'b', 'b'] > ['a', 2, 4] > [0, 0, 0] > > > > > 2 4 c > > On Sun, Jun 15, 2008 at 11:09 AM, Al Nevarez > wrote: >> Hello, >> What's the best way to preserve integers when loading a file into a >> list? >> >> for example.. assume we have a tab delimited file that looks like >> this: >> A 1 >> B 2 >> C three >> >> I have a line in my program to read that file in like this: >> >> my_data=[line.strip().split(' ') for line in file(data_file,'rU')] >> >> the result in my_data is: >> [['A', '1'], ['B','2'], ['C','three']] >> >> But I need my_data to be like this: >> [['A', 1], ['B',2], ['C','three']] >> >> Needs to be automatic.. i.e. I'm not sure ahead of time, which if >> any value anywhere will be a string or an integer. >> >> Thanks! >> Al >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Baypiggies mailing list >> Baypiggies at python.org >> To change your subscription options or unsubscribe: >> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies >> > _______________________________________________ > Baypiggies mailing list > Baypiggies at python.org > To change your subscription options or unsubscribe: > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: smime.p7s Type: application/pkcs7-signature Size: 2425 bytes Desc: not available URL: From bpederse at gmail.com Sun Jun 15 22:46:18 2008 From: bpederse at gmail.com (Brent Pedersen) Date: Sun, 15 Jun 2008 13:46:18 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Preserving integers when loading a file into a list In-Reply-To: <5C7474F5-4890-4C4A-ABE2-E1C921C8C8CF@mischievous.org> References: <694940.43564.qm@web55406.mail.re4.yahoo.com> <5C7474F5-4890-4C4A-ABE2-E1C921C8C8CF@mischievous.org> Message-ID: On Sun, Jun 15, 2008 at 12:31 PM, Jason Culverhouse wrote: > not x.isdigit() and x or int(x) is going to fail for empty string... '' > not False and '' or int('') <-value error since > > You could combine Adam's try_int_convert > > import csv > import functools > import sys > > i = functools.partial(map, try_int_convert) # maybe convert a list to int > t = functools.partial(tuple) # convert to tuple, not sure if you need the in > tuples > > #Read a TSV file from stdin and convert > [t(i(line)) for line in csv.reader(sys.stdin, dialect='excel-tab')] > > Jason good point. out of curiosity, how is t = functools.partial(tuple), then using t() different from using tuple() directly? From bdbaddog at gmail.com Mon Jun 16 03:09:51 2008 From: bdbaddog at gmail.com (William Deegan) Date: Sun, 15 Jun 2008 18:09:51 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Job listings on baypiggies site. Message-ID: <8540148a0806151809y5c651ff4tcdcfa625ecafa72c@mail.gmail.com> Greetings, I've added a job listings section on the website. You'll see the item on the top bar. I've added the rules for posting jobs (from the rules discussed in the mailing list a while back) as follows: 1. No third party recruiters 2. Python related jobs only please 3. Bay Area jobs only please These are the rules as I remember them, if I'm incorrect please let me know. If you've listed a job as a comment on the home page, you have 1 week to remove them, thereafter I'll remove them. This should be adequate time to migrate your comments to the job listings page. If anyone thinks this is too short, please let me know. Thanks, Bill -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From aahz at pythoncraft.com Mon Jun 16 05:28:49 2008 From: aahz at pythoncraft.com (Aahz) Date: Sun, 15 Jun 2008 20:28:49 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Job listings on baypiggies site. In-Reply-To: <8540148a0806151809y5c651ff4tcdcfa625ecafa72c@mail.gmail.com> References: <8540148a0806151809y5c651ff4tcdcfa625ecafa72c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20080616032849.GA15542@panix.com> On Sun, Jun 15, 2008, William Deegan wrote: > > I've added a job listings section on the website. > You'll see the item on the top bar. > I've added the rules for posting jobs (from the rules discussed in the > mailing list a while back) as follows: > > 1. No third party recruiters > 2. Python related jobs only please > 3. Bay Area jobs only please Excellent! I've updated the mailing list info page to point here; please copy the rules for posting to the list from http://baypiggies.net/jobs.html so that the main website has them readily accessible. -- Aahz (aahz at pythoncraft.com) <*> http://www.pythoncraft.com/ "as long as we like the same operating system, things are cool." --piranha From anevare2 at yahoo.com Mon Jun 16 09:08:34 2008 From: anevare2 at yahoo.com (Al Nevarez) Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2008 00:08:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Baypiggies] Fw: Re: Preserving integers when loading a file into a list Message-ID: <707589.64059.qm@web55404.mail.re4.yahoo.com> Thanks for the tips everyone. I'm running an older version of Python.. but the following combination of your suggestions worked just fine in yielding a list of lists with integers and strings preserved. my_data[] data_file='datasource.txt' def try_int_convert(sval): try: return int(sval) except ValueError: return sval for line in open(data_file): temp = [try_int_convert(x) for x in line.strip().split(' ')] my_data.append(temp) Works fine when the value is blank in the original tab delimited file too (must be a tab there of course). Seems to work perfectly, but does anybody spot any issue? Al --- On Sun, 6/15/08, Brent Pedersen wrote: > From: Brent Pedersen > Subject: Re: [Baypiggies] Preserving integers when loading a file into a list > To: "Jason Culverhouse" > Cc: baypiggies at python.org > Date: Sunday, June 15, 2008, 1:46 PM > On Sun, Jun 15, 2008 at 12:31 PM, Jason Culverhouse > wrote: > > not x.isdigit() and x or int(x) is going to fail for > empty string... '' > > not False and '' or int('') > <-value error since > > > > You could combine Adam's try_int_convert > > > > import csv > > import functools > > import sys > > > > i = functools.partial(map, try_int_convert) # maybe > convert a list to int > > t = functools.partial(tuple) # convert to tuple, not > sure if you need the in > > tuples > > > > #Read a TSV file from stdin and convert > > [t(i(line)) for line in csv.reader(sys.stdin, > dialect='excel-tab')] > > > > Jason > > good point. out of curiosity, how is t = > functools.partial(tuple), > then using t() different from using tuple() directly? > _______________________________________________ > Baypiggies mailing list > Baypiggies at python.org > To change your subscription options or unsubscribe: > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies From sfseth at gmail.com Mon Jun 16 09:18:28 2008 From: sfseth at gmail.com (Seth Friedman) Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2008 00:18:28 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Fw: Re: Preserving integers when loading a file into a list In-Reply-To: <707589.64059.qm@web55404.mail.re4.yahoo.com> References: <707589.64059.qm@web55404.mail.re4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <64e45fca0806160018wfdadca0u39e8112b2784fef6@mail.gmail.com> ok i'm a python newb, but can someone answer the following syntax question that's been bugging me: the following line temp = [try_int_convert(x) for x in line.strip().split(' ')] what is temp = [ ...whatever ... ] doing? i'm used to [ .. ] as array syntax, clearly i'm missing some capability here. what does python code enclosed in square brackets do? i could guess but seems like i might get a stronger answer from the experts. ~seth On Mon, Jun 16, 2008 at 12:08 AM, Al Nevarez wrote: > Thanks for the tips everyone. > I'm running an older version of Python.. but the following combination of > your suggestions worked just fine in yielding a list of lists with integers > and strings preserved. > > my_data[] > data_file='datasource.txt' > > def try_int_convert(sval): > try: > return int(sval) > except ValueError: > return sval > > for line in open(data_file): > temp = [try_int_convert(x) for x in line.strip().split(' ')] > my_data.append(temp) > > > Works fine when the value is blank in the original tab delimited file too > (must be a tab there of course). Seems to work perfectly, but does anybody > spot any issue? > > > Al > > > > --- On Sun, 6/15/08, Brent Pedersen wrote: > > > From: Brent Pedersen > > Subject: Re: [Baypiggies] Preserving integers when loading a file into a > list > > To: "Jason Culverhouse" > > Cc: baypiggies at python.org > > Date: Sunday, June 15, 2008, 1:46 PM > > On Sun, Jun 15, 2008 at 12:31 PM, Jason Culverhouse > > wrote: > > > not x.isdigit() and x or int(x) is going to fail for > > empty string... '' > > > not False and '' or int('') > > <-value error since > > > > > > You could combine Adam's try_int_convert > > > > > > import csv > > > import functools > > > import sys > > > > > > i = functools.partial(map, try_int_convert) # maybe > > convert a list to int > > > t = functools.partial(tuple) # convert to tuple, not > > sure if you need the in > > > tuples > > > > > > #Read a TSV file from stdin and convert > > > [t(i(line)) for line in csv.reader(sys.stdin, > > dialect='excel-tab')] > > > > > > Jason > > > > good point. out of curiosity, how is t = > > functools.partial(tuple), > > then using t() different from using tuple() directly? > > _______________________________________________ > > Baypiggies mailing list > > Baypiggies at python.org > > To change your subscription options or unsubscribe: > > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies > > > > _______________________________________________ > Baypiggies mailing list > Baypiggies at python.org > To change your subscription options or unsubscribe: > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hyperneato at gmail.com Mon Jun 16 09:22:46 2008 From: hyperneato at gmail.com (Isaac) Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2008 07:22:46 +0000 Subject: [Baypiggies] Fw: Re: Preserving integers when loading a file into a list In-Reply-To: <64e45fca0806160018wfdadca0u39e8112b2784fef6@mail.gmail.com> References: <707589.64059.qm@web55404.mail.re4.yahoo.com> <64e45fca0806160018wfdadca0u39e8112b2784fef6@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <7260654a0806160022w32498926ua799d71c6298404e@mail.gmail.com> it is a list comprehension. http://docs.python.org/tut/node7.html#SECTION007140000000000000000 On Mon, Jun 16, 2008 at 7:18 AM, Seth Friedman wrote: > ok i'm a python newb, but can someone answer the following syntax question > that's been bugging me: > > the following line > > temp = [try_int_convert(x) for x in line.strip().split(' ')] > > what is temp = [ ...whatever ... ] doing? > > i'm used to [ .. ] as array syntax, clearly i'm missing some capability > here. what does python code enclosed in square brackets do? i could > guess but seems like i might get a stronger answer from the experts. > > ~seth > > > > On Mon, Jun 16, 2008 at 12:08 AM, Al Nevarez wrote: > >> Thanks for the tips everyone. >> I'm running an older version of Python.. but the following combination of >> your suggestions worked just fine in yielding a list of lists with integers >> and strings preserved. >> >> my_data[] >> data_file='datasource.txt' >> >> def try_int_convert(sval): >> try: >> return int(sval) >> except ValueError: >> return sval >> >> for line in open(data_file): >> temp = [try_int_convert(x) for x in line.strip().split(' ')] >> my_data.append(temp) >> >> >> Works fine when the value is blank in the original tab delimited file too >> (must be a tab there of course). Seems to work perfectly, but does anybody >> spot any issue? >> >> >> Al >> >> >> >> --- On Sun, 6/15/08, Brent Pedersen wrote: >> >> > From: Brent Pedersen >> > Subject: Re: [Baypiggies] Preserving integers when loading a file into a >> list >> > To: "Jason Culverhouse" >> > Cc: baypiggies at python.org >> > Date: Sunday, June 15, 2008, 1:46 PM >> > On Sun, Jun 15, 2008 at 12:31 PM, Jason Culverhouse >> > wrote: >> > > not x.isdigit() and x or int(x) is going to fail for >> > empty string... '' >> > > not False and '' or int('') >> > <-value error since >> > > >> > > You could combine Adam's try_int_convert >> > > >> > > import csv >> > > import functools >> > > import sys >> > > >> > > i = functools.partial(map, try_int_convert) # maybe >> > convert a list to int >> > > t = functools.partial(tuple) # convert to tuple, not >> > sure if you need the in >> > > tuples >> > > >> > > #Read a TSV file from stdin and convert >> > > [t(i(line)) for line in csv.reader(sys.stdin, >> > dialect='excel-tab')] >> > > >> > > Jason >> > >> > good point. out of curiosity, how is t = >> > functools.partial(tuple), >> > then using t() different from using tuple() directly? >> > _______________________________________________ >> > Baypiggies mailing list >> > Baypiggies at python.org >> > To change your subscription options or unsubscribe: >> > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Baypiggies mailing list >> Baypiggies at python.org >> To change your subscription options or unsubscribe: >> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies >> > > > _______________________________________________ > Baypiggies mailing list > Baypiggies at python.org > To change your subscription options or unsubscribe: > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sfseth at gmail.com Mon Jun 16 10:04:07 2008 From: sfseth at gmail.com (Seth Friedman) Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2008 01:04:07 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Fw: Re: Preserving integers when loading a file into a list In-Reply-To: <7260654a0806160022w32498926ua799d71c6298404e@mail.gmail.com> References: <707589.64059.qm@web55404.mail.re4.yahoo.com> <64e45fca0806160018wfdadca0u39e8112b2784fef6@mail.gmail.com> <7260654a0806160022w32498926ua799d71c6298404e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <64e45fca0806160104n4152d0d5p9676aea222f6eae8@mail.gmail.com> thanks, i hadn't mapped that concept onto what i saw yet. On Mon, Jun 16, 2008 at 12:22 AM, Isaac wrote: > it is a list comprehension. > > http://docs.python.org/tut/node7.html#SECTION007140000000000000000 > > > On Mon, Jun 16, 2008 at 7:18 AM, Seth Friedman wrote: > >> ok i'm a python newb, but can someone answer the following syntax question >> that's been bugging me: >> >> the following line >> >> temp = [try_int_convert(x) for x in line.strip().split(' ')] >> >> what is temp = [ ...whatever ... ] doing? >> >> i'm used to [ .. ] as array syntax, clearly i'm missing some capability >> here. what does python code enclosed in square brackets do? i could >> guess but seems like i might get a stronger answer from the experts. >> >> ~seth >> >> >> >> On Mon, Jun 16, 2008 at 12:08 AM, Al Nevarez wrote: >> >>> Thanks for the tips everyone. >>> I'm running an older version of Python.. but the following combination of >>> your suggestions worked just fine in yielding a list of lists with integers >>> and strings preserved. >>> >>> my_data[] >>> data_file='datasource.txt' >>> >>> def try_int_convert(sval): >>> try: >>> return int(sval) >>> except ValueError: >>> return sval >>> >>> for line in open(data_file): >>> temp = [try_int_convert(x) for x in line.strip().split(' >>> ')] >>> my_data.append(temp) >>> >>> >>> Works fine when the value is blank in the original tab delimited file too >>> (must be a tab there of course). Seems to work perfectly, but does anybody >>> spot any issue? >>> >>> >>> Al >>> >>> >>> >>> --- On Sun, 6/15/08, Brent Pedersen wrote: >>> >>> > From: Brent Pedersen >>> > Subject: Re: [Baypiggies] Preserving integers when loading a file into >>> a list >>> > To: "Jason Culverhouse" >>> > Cc: baypiggies at python.org >>> > Date: Sunday, June 15, 2008, 1:46 PM >>> > On Sun, Jun 15, 2008 at 12:31 PM, Jason Culverhouse >>> > wrote: >>> > > not x.isdigit() and x or int(x) is going to fail for >>> > empty string... '' >>> > > not False and '' or int('') >>> > <-value error since >>> > > >>> > > You could combine Adam's try_int_convert >>> > > >>> > > import csv >>> > > import functools >>> > > import sys >>> > > >>> > > i = functools.partial(map, try_int_convert) # maybe >>> > convert a list to int >>> > > t = functools.partial(tuple) # convert to tuple, not >>> > sure if you need the in >>> > > tuples >>> > > >>> > > #Read a TSV file from stdin and convert >>> > > [t(i(line)) for line in csv.reader(sys.stdin, >>> > dialect='excel-tab')] >>> > > >>> > > Jason >>> > >>> > good point. out of curiosity, how is t = >>> > functools.partial(tuple), >>> > then using t() different from using tuple() directly? >>> > _______________________________________________ >>> > Baypiggies mailing list >>> > Baypiggies at python.org >>> > To change your subscription options or unsubscribe: >>> > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Baypiggies mailing list >>> Baypiggies at python.org >>> To change your subscription options or unsubscribe: >>> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies >>> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Baypiggies mailing list >> Baypiggies at python.org >> To change your subscription options or unsubscribe: >> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies >> > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From slander at unworkable.org Mon Jun 16 18:09:51 2008 From: slander at unworkable.org (Harry Tormey) Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2008 17:09:51 +0100 Subject: [Baypiggies] PyGAMESF Tonight 7:00pm @ Metreon Message-ID: <20080616160951.GA981@unworkable.org> Hi All, Just a reminder that this month's PyGAME SF meet up is on this evening at 7.00pm at the Metreon food court in San Francisco. This month's presentations are: - Tim Thompson (http://nosuch.com/tjt/index.html) "Artistic Mashups with Python and VST/Freeframe Plugins." This talk will discuss the use of Python with audio and video plugin technology in several art installations. Radio Free Quasar was an installation that used Python as a VST host, chaining VST plugins to mangle audio. Finger Painting with Planets is an installation that uses Python to simulate gravity and draw graphics from within a chain of Freeframe plugins that mangle video. - Andrew Turley "Building Digital Instruments with Pure Data". This talk will discuss how to use Pure Data to get input via your PC/Mac from strange input devices like guitar hero controllers. PyGame SF is an informal group meet up in San Francisco for Software engineers interested in python, OpenGL, audio, pygame, SDL, programming and generally anything to do with multimedia development. The format of our meetings typically involve several people giving presentations on projects they are developing followed by group discussion and feedback. If anyone else would like to give a micro presentation, show demos or just talk about what they are doing or generally give examples of any relevant software they are working on please feel free to head along. To subscribe to the pygamesf mailing list simply email pygame-sf+subscribe at unworkable.org -Harry From jim at well.com Tue Jun 17 15:48:32 2008 From: jim at well.com (jim) Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2008 06:48:32 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Sunnyvale Python Training for Programmers Message-ID: <1213710512.6312.13.camel@ubuntu> Hi, A Python class starts tomorrow. It's an intense, but low-pressure, learning experience, designed for programmers of other languages: http://www.ucsc-extension.edu/ucsc/public/category/courseDetails.do;jsessionid=D264C38973BB0A8D201B76D500F33B5D?method=load&courseId=1531625&selectedCategoryId=1000075&selectedProgramAreaId=3785130&selectedProgramStreamId=1535344 It'll be Monday through Thursday this week. Four days in the lab, practicing the core of Python, especially Pythonic thinking. I hope to see you there. Marilyn Davis, Ph.D. From cbc at unc.edu Tue Jun 17 21:49:57 2008 From: cbc at unc.edu (Chris Calloway) Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2008 15:49:57 -0400 Subject: [Baypiggies] BootCampArama Early Bird Registration Reminder Message-ID: <48581565.8040308@unc.edu> Just a reminder, we're at the two week warning on early bird registration for PyCamp: http://trizpug.org/boot-camp/2008/ Registration is now open for: PyCamp: Python Boot Camp, August 4 - 8 Plone Boot Camp: Customizing Plone, July 28 - August 1 Advanced Plone Boot Camp: Plone 3 Techniques, August 4 - 7 All of these take place on the campus of the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill in state of the art high tech classrooms, with free mass transit, low-cost accommodations with free wireless, and convenient dining options. Plone Boot Camp is taught by Joel Burton, twice chair of the Plone Foundation. Joel has logged more the 200 days at the head of Plone classrooms on four continents. See plonebootcamps.com for dozens of testimonials from Joel's students. PyCamp is taught by Chris Calloway, facilitator for TriZPUG and application analyst for the Southeast Coastal Ocean Observing System. Chris has developed PyCamp for over 1500 hours on behalf of Python user groups. Early bird registration runs through June 30. So register today! PyCamp is TriZPUG's Python Boot Camp, which takes a programmer familiar with basic programming concepts to the status of Python developer with one week of training. If you have previous scripting or programming experience and want to step into Python programming as quickly and painlessly as possible, this boot camp is for you. PyCamp is also the perfect follow-on to Plone Boot Camp: Customizing Plone the previous week. At Plone Boot Camp: Customizing Plone you will learn the essentials you need to build your Plone site and deploy it. This course is the most popular in the Plone world--for a good reason: it teaches you practical skills in a friendly, hands-on format. This bootcamp is aimed at: * people with HTML or web design experience * people with some or no Python experience * people with some or no Zope/Plone experience It covers using Plone, customizing, and deploying Plone sites. At Advanced Plone Boot Camp: Plone 3 Techniques you will learn to build a site using the best practices of Plone 3 as well as advance your skills in scripting and developing for Plone. The course covers the new technologies in Plone 3.0 and 3.1 intended for site integrators and developers: our new portlet infrastructure, viewlets, versioning, and a friendly introduction to Zope 3 component architecture. Now, updated for Plone 3.1! The course is intended for people who have experience with the basics of Plone site development and HTML/CSS. It will cover what you need to know to take advantage of these new technologies in Plone 3. For more information contact: info at trizpug.org -- Sincerely, Chris Calloway http://www.secoora.org office: 332 Chapman Hall phone: (919) 599-3530 mail: Campus Box #3300, UNC-CH, Chapel Hill, NC 27599 From bdbaddog at gmail.com Wed Jun 18 06:31:48 2008 From: bdbaddog at gmail.com (William Deegan) Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2008 21:31:48 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Spam for Carrie O'Donnell, removing your add from baypiggies home page please read, others please ignore. Message-ID: <8540148a0806172131v338ec12em38611d74bbbed016@mail.gmail.com> I'm cleaning up the comments on the baypiggies home page and have created a separate page for job listings. Since your job posting is over 1 month old I'm removing it tonight. If you wish to repost, please do so on the jobs page. Also you may wish to send it to the mailing list as well. You may get a larger audience. Here's your ad: sr developers Posted by Carrie O'Donnell at 2008-03-13 01:49 hello fellow piggies..... For those of you interested, check it out. the client is a top 5 game company and leading the MMO industry... The ideal candidate has a blend of strong programming skills and the passion to build the best. It is likely software is your lifestyle and you will do anything to be a part of the next wave of entertainment. Individuals who are excited to contribute to the quality and impact of a large project are the standard M.O. Responsibilities include: * Design and implement game systems with maintainability and correctness * Work closely with design staff to determine appropriate systems and solutions * Review and suggest improvements to other programmers systems Required Experience/skills * Very strong programming and debugging skills in C++ and C# * Ability to communicate clearly and work effectively with others * 4+ years of programming experience * A shipped game title is preferred but not required Compensation: salary doe 24 days vacation per year starting year one 180 days paternity full kitchen and chef on site medical care equity company vacation homes in the usa and europe for you and your family to enjoy -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ken at seehart.com Thu Jun 19 05:38:58 2008 From: ken at seehart.com (Ken Seehart) Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2008 20:38:58 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Plone - Kupu: How do I disable the automatic click to edit? In-Reply-To: <1212856762.20205.284.camel@ubuntu> References: <1212856762.20205.284.camel@ubuntu> Message-ID: <4859D4D2.9030301@seehart.com> Kupu has an annoying feature that goes into edit mode instantly when I click in a document. This is annoying because often I am just reading a document, and I want to copy and paste something, etc. The obvious answer of turning off edit permission won't do, because I might also want to edit sometimes. I just want editing to be explicit, i.e. an "edit" button. Ken From sjbrown at vmware.com Thu Jun 19 20:17:33 2008 From: sjbrown at vmware.com (Shandy Brown) Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2008 11:17:33 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Frequently Argued Objections Message-ID: <1213899453.25521.73.camel@sbrown-dev2> Hi all. I'm trying to compile a list of frequent objections against using Python and a rational response to each. Basically the same format as an FAQ. It occurs to me that perhaps someone in the community has already come up with such a list. So... any links? Shandy From varmaa at gmail.com Thu Jun 19 20:55:39 2008 From: varmaa at gmail.com (Atul Varma) Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2008 11:55:39 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Frequently Argued Objections In-Reply-To: <1213899453.25521.73.camel@sbrown-dev2> References: <1213899453.25521.73.camel@sbrown-dev2> Message-ID: <361b27370806191155i5b57cde8tf5cf00315bb4a205@mail.gmail.com> Hi Shandy, Great idea! I don't know of such an FAQ, but I wrote a Python guide for JS programmers a few weeks ago which, at the beginning, argues why Python's use of whitespace and lack of brackets is more humane than that of C-style languages: http://hg.toolness.com/python-for-js-programmers/raw-file/tip/PythonForJsProgrammers.html Hope that helps. - Atul On Thu, Jun 19, 2008 at 11:17 AM, Shandy Brown wrote: > Hi all. > > I'm trying to compile a list of frequent objections against using Python > and a rational response to each. Basically the same format as an FAQ. > It occurs to me that perhaps someone in the community has already come > up with such a list. So... any links? > > Shandy > > _______________________________________________ > Baypiggies mailing list > Baypiggies at python.org > To change your subscription options or unsubscribe: > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From n8pease at yahoo.com Thu Jun 19 20:53:01 2008 From: n8pease at yahoo.com (Nathan Pease) Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2008 11:53:01 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Frequently Argued Objections In-Reply-To: <1213899453.25521.73.camel@sbrown-dev2> References: <1213899453.25521.73.camel@sbrown-dev2> Message-ID: many of the developers at my workplace complain about namespace confusion (too many of them, too much hierarchy) nate On Jun 19, 2008, at 11:17 AM, Shandy Brown wrote: > Hi all. > > I'm trying to compile a list of frequent objections against using > Python > and a rational response to each. Basically the same format as an FAQ. > It occurs to me that perhaps someone in the community has already come > up with such a list. So... any links? > > Shandy > > _______________________________________________ > Baypiggies mailing list > Baypiggies at python.org > To change your subscription options or unsubscribe: > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies From varmaa at gmail.com Thu Jun 19 22:02:48 2008 From: varmaa at gmail.com (Atul Varma) Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2008 13:02:48 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Frequently Argued Objections In-Reply-To: References: <1213899453.25521.73.camel@sbrown-dev2> Message-ID: <361b27370806191302r57a508bdnd42a9a06423cba1f@mail.gmail.com> For the sake of having a balanced perspective, I wonder if it may be a good idea to actually include some flaws of Python in there too; no language is perfect, and it may make skeptics more interested in reading it if it wasn't "evangelical" and admitted to flaws when necessary, perhaps giving historical reasons for why the flaws exist. Anyhow, just a thought. - Atul On Thu, Jun 19, 2008 at 11:53 AM, Nathan Pease wrote: > many of the developers at my workplace complain about namespace confusion > (too many of them, too much hierarchy) > > nate > > > On Jun 19, 2008, at 11:17 AM, Shandy Brown wrote: > > Hi all. >> >> I'm trying to compile a list of frequent objections against using Python >> and a rational response to each. Basically the same format as an FAQ. >> It occurs to me that perhaps someone in the community has already come >> up with such a list. So... any links? >> >> Shandy >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Baypiggies mailing list >> Baypiggies at python.org >> To change your subscription options or unsubscribe: >> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies >> > > _______________________________________________ > Baypiggies mailing list > Baypiggies at python.org > To change your subscription options or unsubscribe: > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From niallo at unworkable.org Thu Jun 19 22:07:54 2008 From: niallo at unworkable.org (Niall O'Higgins) Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2008 21:07:54 +0100 Subject: [Baypiggies] Frequently Argued Objections In-Reply-To: <361b27370806191302r57a508bdnd42a9a06423cba1f@mail.gmail.com> References: <1213899453.25521.73.camel@sbrown-dev2> <361b27370806191302r57a508bdnd42a9a06423cba1f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20080619200754.GU30592@unworkable.org> A good model may be the FQA style, used in the very excellent C++ FQA: http://yosefk.com/c++fqa/ Of course, the C++ FQA is quite polemic in tone, but its nonetheless very, very well done. On Thu, Jun 19, 2008 at 01:02:48PM -0700, Atul Varma wrote: > For the sake of having a balanced perspective, I wonder if it may be a good > idea to actually include some flaws of Python in there too; no language is > perfect, and it may make skeptics more interested in reading it if it wasn't > "evangelical" and admitted to flaws when necessary, perhaps giving > historical reasons for why the flaws exist. > > Anyhow, just a thought. > > - Atul -- Niall O'Higgins P2P Research http://p2presearch.com http://niallohiggins.com From charles.merriam at gmail.com Thu Jun 19 22:54:37 2008 From: charles.merriam at gmail.com (Charles Merriam) Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2008 13:54:37 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Frequently Argued Objections In-Reply-To: <1213899453.25521.73.camel@sbrown-dev2> References: <1213899453.25521.73.camel@sbrown-dev2> Message-ID: Hello Shandy, While there isn't a link, here are the frequent questions I see: Q1. Why is Python case-sensitive? That is, why is 'bob_is_your_uncle" different from "Bob_is_your_uncle" and "BobIsYourUncle"? A1. Because Guido said so, it would be too much of a break with older languages, and it encourages a consistent style. Q2. Why is Python moving to 3.0? Why is the 'u' tag breaking? Why change? A2. Languages evolve or die. The 'u' tag disappears because purists like to write. Q3. Why isn't Python the same speed as C++, have lambdas like Lisp, strong typing like Java, etc? A3. Because it is Python. Q4. Why isn't Python faster? A4. It's fast enough for almost everything, and links easily to C/C++ code. It is aimed at quickly writing solid code. Q5. Why is Pep-8 hard to read? Why isn't rgruet's quick reference guide part of the Python documentation? Why don't Python docs link to sample code and a wiki? Why aren't usual "gotcha's" pointed out in the Python documentation. A5. Because you haven't rewritten the Python documentation. Q6. Why is Python so complicated and concise? A7. Many common problems can be written concisely, so as to save space. Python works on some consistent rules under the hood, like linear execution within a namespace, which provides an understanding of the concise syntax. Have fun! Charles Merriam From baypiggies at atoulou.se Fri Jun 20 00:28:45 2008 From: baypiggies at atoulou.se (Andrew Toulouse) Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2008 15:28:45 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Frequently Argued Objections In-Reply-To: References: <1213899453.25521.73.camel@sbrown-dev2> Message-ID: Those answers come off as somewhat insular or holier-than-thou. More than a few people I know factored the Python community's lack of nerdraging into their decision to learn it over Ruby. Not that you intended that, but some people might take it as such. I'd change a few answers. Forgive me if the answers are wrong, I'm a journeyman, not a master of Python. Here are my answers to the first four: A1. There are many reasons to make a language case-sensitive, not the least of which being that many (possibly even most) other languages are also case-sensitive. Case-sensitivity also encourages a sensible and consistent naming style. A2. Since Python's internals are standardizing on Unicode, strings are, by default, Unicode. The 'u' tag no longer has a purpose, and with the break in compatibility from 2.x to 3.0, now is the ideal time to remove it from the language. A3. There are many things that make languages faster or slower. It is often the case that the more flexibility a language gives you, the harder it is to optimize. C++ is fast because it is extremely explicit and much of its logic can be optimized and transformed into machine code at compile-time. Python, on the other hand, is much more dynamic, and allows the programmer a great deal of functionality at run-time. With respect to the lack of lambdas, this isn't entirely true. There are lambdas that aren't quite as useful as full functions, but Python also supports nested function definitions, and functions are first class. Anywhere a lambda can be used, a function can be used, and you can define these within a local scope. If most of this flew over your head, then take our word for it that Python is how it is to make it easier to quickly write solid code. It should also be noted that Python makes it easy to write C or C++ extensions, bypassing the overhead when speed is needed more than flexibility. A4. --- see A3 Andy Toulouse On Thu, Jun 19, 2008 at 1:54 PM, Charles Merriam wrote: > Hello Shandy, > > While there isn't a link, here are the frequent questions I see: > > Q1. Why is Python case-sensitive? That is, why is > 'bob_is_your_uncle" different from "Bob_is_your_uncle" and > "BobIsYourUncle"? > A1. Because Guido said so, it would be too much of a break with older > languages, and it encourages a consistent style. > > Q2. Why is Python moving to 3.0? Why is the 'u' tag breaking? Why > change? > A2. Languages evolve or die. The 'u' tag disappears because purists > like to write. > > Q3. Why isn't Python the same speed as C++, have lambdas like Lisp, > strong typing like Java, etc? > A3. Because it is Python. > > Q4. Why isn't Python faster? > A4. It's fast enough for almost everything, and links easily to C/C++ > code. It is aimed at quickly writing solid code. > > Q5. Why is Pep-8 hard to read? Why isn't rgruet's quick reference > guide part of the Python documentation? Why don't Python docs link to > sample code and a wiki? Why aren't usual "gotcha's" pointed out in > the Python documentation. > A5. Because you haven't rewritten the Python documentation. > > Q6. Why is Python so complicated and concise? > A7. Many common problems can be written concisely, so as to save > space. Python works on some consistent rules under the hood, like > linear execution within a namespace, which provides an understanding > of the concise syntax. > > Have fun! > > Charles Merriam > _______________________________________________ > Baypiggies mailing list > Baypiggies at python.org > To change your subscription options or unsubscribe: > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cbc at unc.edu Fri Jun 20 01:26:34 2008 From: cbc at unc.edu (Chris Calloway) Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2008 19:26:34 -0400 Subject: [Baypiggies] Plone - Kupu: How do I disable the automatic click to edit? In-Reply-To: <4859D4D2.9030301@seehart.com> References: <1212856762.20205.284.camel@ubuntu> <4859D4D2.9030301@seehart.com> Message-ID: <485AEB2A.6040004@unc.edu> On 6/18/2008 11:38 PM, Ken Seehart wrote: > Kupu has an annoying feature that goes into edit mode instantly when I > click in a document. This is annoying because often I am just reading a > document, and I want to copy and paste something, etc. The obvious > answer of turning off edit permission won't do, because I might also > want to edit sometimes. I just want editing to be explicit, i.e. an > "edit" button. This question might be more suited to the plone-users list, but... This feature was added to Plone over a year ago and people either love it or hate it. There's information about dealing turning the feature off here: http://plone.org/documentation/how-to/kss-on-plone-3.1/ http://plone.org/documentation/how-to/how-to-setup-and-use-kss-on-plone-3.0/ I think the trick is going to be adding a personal setting in Plone disable inline editing per user in some future minor release of Plone. -- Sincerely, Chris Calloway http://www.secoora.org office: 332 Chapman Hall phone: (919) 599-3530 mail: Campus Box #3300, UNC-CH, Chapel Hill, NC 27599 From asheesh at asheesh.org Fri Jun 20 01:34:13 2008 From: asheesh at asheesh.org (Asheesh Laroia) Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2008 16:34:13 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Baypiggies] Plone - Kupu: How do I disable the automatic click to edit? In-Reply-To: <4859D4D2.9030301@seehart.com> References: <1212856762.20205.284.camel@ubuntu> <4859D4D2.9030301@seehart.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 18 Jun 2008, Ken Seehart wrote: > Kupu has an annoying feature that goes into edit mode instantly when I > click in a document. This is annoying because often I am just reading a > document, and I want to copy and paste something, etc. The obvious > answer of turning off edit permission won't do, because I might also > want to edit sometimes. I just want editing to be explicit, i.e. an > "edit" button. c.f. http://universaleditbutton.org/Universal_Edit_Button ! -- Asheesh. -- Opened for inspection. From jeff at drinktomi.com Fri Jun 20 04:18:32 2008 From: jeff at drinktomi.com (Jeff Younker) Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2008 19:18:32 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Frequently Argued Objections In-Reply-To: <361b27370806191302r57a508bdnd42a9a06423cba1f@mail.gmail.com> References: <1213899453.25521.73.camel@sbrown-dev2> <361b27370806191302r57a508bdnd42a9a06423cba1f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <7BC83F92-BB21-4C49-9216-3060D90A56A4@drinktomi.com> Here are my big gripes/shortcomings: Method dispatch is an attribute access combined with a call on that attribute. It's much cleaner if the two are combined into a single operation; something like obj.__send__('name', pargs, vargs). It seems like a small thing, but it makes writing proxies, mocks, record/playback, etc. much easier. I think Ruby got this one right. You must use duck typing when sub-typing and abstract base classes would be much more useful. (I hear this is being fixed in 3.0) The standard library has inconsistencies in case that haven't been fixed yet. (The great thing about Python is that it would be easy to alias existing classes/methods to names following PEP-8 while retaining the old ones for compatibility.) Ruby's blocks are awesome in many ways. The explicit self is ugly. Variable scoping can be tricky. (Ruby's scope indicators are a good solution to this. They're concise and clear once you know them.) Properties are really ugly. Other languages implement unified attribute access/function call access in a much more elegant manner. Protocols are used when syntactic sugar would be more understandable. (I imagine that protocols make it hard for a compiler to optimize Python code too.) - Jeff Younker - jeff at drinktomi.com - From aahz at pythoncraft.com Fri Jun 20 04:22:42 2008 From: aahz at pythoncraft.com (Aahz) Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2008 19:22:42 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Frequently Argued Objections In-Reply-To: References: <1213899453.25521.73.camel@sbrown-dev2> Message-ID: <20080620022242.GB17387@panix.com> On Thu, Jun 19, 2008, Nathan Pease wrote: > > many of the developers at my workplace complain about namespace > confusion (too many of them, too much hierarchy) Have you shown them "import this"? -- Aahz (aahz at pythoncraft.com) <*> http://www.pythoncraft.com/ "as long as we like the same operating system, things are cool." --piranha From robert.e.smith1 at lmco.com Fri Jun 20 04:14:33 2008 From: robert.e.smith1 at lmco.com (Smith1, Robert E) Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2008 19:14:33 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Frequently Argued Objections Message-ID: <18E2675C0D478E4494108B55120A61AF1560E725@emss01m15.us.lmco.com> "I'm trying to compile a list of frequent objections against using Python and a rational response to each." There are negatives regarding dynamic variable typing. For a person reading code, you cannot tell from the signature of a function what variable types it takes (you also can't tell what the return type is from looking at a Python function signature). Also, you often cannot tell from a variable instantiation what type it is without further investigation of the type of the variable/function that is being used to assign to it. Which makes code deciphering some degree more difficult. And the compiler itself cannot tell from looking at things like a function signature what variable types should be allowed and what should not, so it cannot assist the programmer by catching things like function calls that have improper parameter types, during compliation. As far as a response, I am actually of the opinion that static typing is better for production systems. Or that the more critical the production system is the more it should be statically typed. The extreme example being code running on the Space Shuttle. But there are many who would argue in favor of dynamic typing for production systems. Here's one: http://www.chimu.com/publications/short/whyDynamicTyping.html -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sfseth at gmail.com Fri Jun 20 05:30:33 2008 From: sfseth at gmail.com (Seth Friedman) Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2008 20:30:33 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Frequently Argued Objections In-Reply-To: References: <1213899453.25521.73.camel@sbrown-dev2> Message-ID: <64e45fca0806192030s5c1427c4racb2ebfff2d38287@mail.gmail.com> Andrew, Could not agree more re: the nerdraging, I am prone to it myself and I think it's worthwhile to take special care in avoiding. One of the reasons I even bothered to find out why Python is different from other language (or language communities, rather), and ultimately start learning it, is the relative civility I observed in the community early on (and appreciate still). It's perhaps a subtle difference, but an important one. My suggestions for the FAO list: - Why whitespace? Produces concise code, where blocks of code have an instant visual cue to represent depth that is faster, nearly automatic evaluation of how deeply nested arbitrary statement can be than counting {{{}}}'s, at an understood up-front cost in learning the language. - Duck typing? Yeah, I'm probably not a good person to answer this because I don't really comprehend the tradeoffs involved in the choice. It strikes me as odd, other people seem to care more than I. - How do I trust the garbage collection isn't doing weird things along the lines of the stop-the-world collector default in some versions of Java? Again here, I'd love to learn more about how Python frees memory structures in detail, but don't really know how/where. I've worked with Java enough to be (in my opinion) healthily paranoid, I haven't run into problems with this in Python, but I would love some understanding of what's going on under the covers sufficient to believe it's not just a matter of time, e.g. growing complexity of my code, until I start seeing utterly bizarre behavior. I prefer to understand special-care-and-feeding cases up front and avoid them in design, rather than end up with a pile of years-old code I have to maintain, that only shows oddities of a language at the point where the complexity factor is high. - Why such difficulty with extensibility? OK, there are cases that are valid, I don't know of a library that I can natively read an OODoc spreadsheet in python where that exists in perl for example. However, I think this is a biproduct of the "batteries included" mindset, which i interpret as -- the python community has an acknowledged preference for libraries that work to a fairly sound definition of "good enough", and maybe there's no good-enough OODoc python library yet. Still, in terms of discovery, perl has CPAN, and perl folks seem to like ... well no, they seem to tolerate it. Does Python need an improved CPAN? Or is Python so "batteries included" that it's either - the language has it standard, or you're going to need google to find it? There's probably a related question of how large are the community of contributers and what are the barriers to entry, what is the relative merit of 10 half-baked libraries targeted at slightly different use cases, vs 1 that kicks butt. Still, I get "poor extensibility" as a top critique of python probably more than anything else these days. ~seth On Thu, Jun 19, 2008 at 3:28 PM, Andrew Toulouse wrote: > Those answers come off as somewhat insular or holier-than-thou. More than a > few people I know factored the Python community's lack of nerdraging into > their decision to learn it over Ruby. Not that you intended that, but some > people might take it as such. > > I'd change a few answers. Forgive me if the answers are wrong, I'm a > journeyman, not a master of Python. Here are my answers to the first four: > > A1. There are many reasons to make a language case-sensitive, not the least > of which being that many (possibly even most) other languages are also > case-sensitive. Case-sensitivity also encourages a sensible and consistent > naming style. > > A2. Since Python's internals are standardizing on Unicode, strings are, by > default, Unicode. The 'u' tag no longer has a purpose, and with the break in > compatibility from 2.x to 3.0, now is the ideal time to remove it from the > language. > > A3. There are many things that make languages faster or slower. It is often > the case that the more flexibility a language gives you, the harder it is to > optimize. C++ is fast because it is extremely explicit and much of its logic > can be optimized and transformed into machine code at compile-time. Python, > on the other hand, is much more dynamic, and allows the programmer a great > deal of functionality at run-time. With respect to the lack of lambdas, this > isn't entirely true. There are lambdas that aren't quite as useful as full > functions, but Python also supports nested function definitions, and > functions are first class. Anywhere a lambda can be used, a function can be > used, and you can define these within a local scope. If most of this flew > over your head, then take our word for it that Python is how it is to make > it easier to quickly write solid code. It should also be noted that Python > makes it easy to write C or C++ extensions, bypassing the overhead when > speed is needed more than flexibility. > > A4. --- see A3 > > Andy Toulouse > > > On Thu, Jun 19, 2008 at 1:54 PM, Charles Merriam < > charles.merriam at gmail.com> wrote: > >> Hello Shandy, >> >> While there isn't a link, here are the frequent questions I see: >> >> Q1. Why is Python case-sensitive? That is, why is >> 'bob_is_your_uncle" different from "Bob_is_your_uncle" and >> "BobIsYourUncle"? >> A1. Because Guido said so, it would be too much of a break with older >> languages, and it encourages a consistent style. >> >> Q2. Why is Python moving to 3.0? Why is the 'u' tag breaking? Why >> change? >> A2. Languages evolve or die. The 'u' tag disappears because purists >> like to write. >> >> Q3. Why isn't Python the same speed as C++, have lambdas like Lisp, >> strong typing like Java, etc? >> A3. Because it is Python. >> >> Q4. Why isn't Python faster? >> A4. It's fast enough for almost everything, and links easily to C/C++ >> code. It is aimed at quickly writing solid code. >> >> Q5. Why is Pep-8 hard to read? Why isn't rgruet's quick reference >> guide part of the Python documentation? Why don't Python docs link to >> sample code and a wiki? Why aren't usual "gotcha's" pointed out in >> the Python documentation. >> A5. Because you haven't rewritten the Python documentation. >> >> Q6. Why is Python so complicated and concise? >> A7. Many common problems can be written concisely, so as to save >> space. Python works on some consistent rules under the hood, like >> linear execution within a namespace, which provides an understanding >> of the concise syntax. >> >> Have fun! >> >> Charles Merriam >> _______________________________________________ >> Baypiggies mailing list >> Baypiggies at python.org >> To change your subscription options or unsubscribe: >> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies >> > > > _______________________________________________ > Baypiggies mailing list > Baypiggies at python.org > To change your subscription options or unsubscribe: > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From aahz at pythoncraft.com Fri Jun 20 05:47:39 2008 From: aahz at pythoncraft.com (Aahz) Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2008 20:47:39 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Frequently Argued Objections In-Reply-To: <64e45fca0806192030s5c1427c4racb2ebfff2d38287@mail.gmail.com> References: <1213899453.25521.73.camel@sbrown-dev2> <64e45fca0806192030s5c1427c4racb2ebfff2d38287@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20080620034739.GB18900@panix.com> On Thu, Jun 19, 2008, Seth Friedman wrote: > > - How do I trust the garbage collection isn't doing weird things along the > lines of the stop-the-world collector default in some versions of Java? > > Again here, I'd love to learn more about how Python frees memory structures > in detail, but don't really know how/where. I've worked with Java enough > to be (in my opinion) healthily paranoid, I haven't run into problems with > this in Python, but I would love some understanding of what's going on under > the covers sufficient to believe it's not just a matter of time, e.g. > growing complexity of my code, until I start seeing utterly bizarre > behavior. I prefer to understand special-care-and-feeding cases up front > and avoid them in design, rather than end up with a pile of years-old code I > have to maintain, that only shows oddities of a language at the point where > the complexity factor is high. Python uses reference counting backed by GC (GC is only used to break cycles of mutually-referring objects with no external references pointing in). Generally speaking, the only time you'll see a "stop-the-world" collection is when you delete e.g. a dictionary with millions of elements, each key/value pair of which is a moderate-sized string with only the dict refering to the string (and that's all reference counting, not GC). It's possible to provoke GC into pathological behavior, but it usually takes work. -- Aahz (aahz at pythoncraft.com) <*> http://www.pythoncraft.com/ "as long as we like the same operating system, things are cool." --piranha From dpb at donbennett.org Fri Jun 20 06:14:16 2008 From: dpb at donbennett.org (Don Bennett) Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2008 21:14:16 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Frequently Argued Objections In-Reply-To: <1213899453.25521.73.camel@sbrown-dev2> References: <1213899453.25521.73.camel@sbrown-dev2> Message-ID: <485B2E98.6060900@donbennett.org> One objection I've heard a few times, "What's up with this global interpreter lock?" It can come as a surprise to people trying to figure out why their multi-threaded programs aren't as fast as they expected. Don Shandy Brown wrote: > Hi all. > > I'm trying to compile a list of frequent objections against using Python > and a rational response to each. Basically the same format as an FAQ. > It occurs to me that perhaps someone in the community has already come > up with such a list. So... any links? > > Shandy > > _______________________________________________ > Baypiggies mailing list > Baypiggies at python.org > To change your subscription options or unsubscribe: > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies > > From charles.merriam at gmail.com Fri Jun 20 06:40:40 2008 From: charles.merriam at gmail.com (Charles Merriam) Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2008 21:40:40 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Frequently Argued Objections In-Reply-To: <485B2E98.6060900@donbennett.org> References: <1213899453.25521.73.camel@sbrown-dev2> <485B2E98.6060900@donbennett.org> Message-ID: For "What's up with this global interpreter lock?" question: A1. Much of Python is not multi-threaded. After many experiments, variants, and systems, the unfortunate confusion is that removing the global interpreter lock increases code complexity and reduces overall reliability. For most systems, calling some subsystem that implements threading, such as a database or transaction manager, is the correct model. What's with "Duck Typing?": A1. There are two key advantages over the Java style of strict typing. First, many applications touch HTML, XML, or other networked subsystems that pass around structured data in the form of text. Using Duck typing greatly reduces the amount of code written for such code, and removes the error prone type casting the occurs in other languages. Second, there was a study (reference someone?) showing that computer programmers with some experience did not, in practice, make the typing mistakes prevented by strict typing. On Thu, Jun 19, 2008 at 9:14 PM, Don Bennett wrote: > One objection I've heard a few times, "What's up with this global > interpreter lock?" > > It can come as a surprise to people trying to figure out why their > multi-threaded programs aren't as fast as they expected. > > Don > > > Shandy Brown wrote: >> >> Hi all. >> >> I'm trying to compile a list of frequent objections against using Python >> and a rational response to each. Basically the same format as an FAQ. >> It occurs to me that perhaps someone in the community has already come >> up with such a list. So... any links? >> >> Shandy >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Baypiggies mailing list >> Baypiggies at python.org >> To change your subscription options or unsubscribe: >> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > Baypiggies mailing list > Baypiggies at python.org > To change your subscription options or unsubscribe: > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies > From jjinux at gmail.com Fri Jun 20 10:19:15 2008 From: jjinux at gmail.com (Shannon -jj Behrens) Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2008 01:19:15 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Frequently Argued Objections In-Reply-To: <64e45fca0806192030s5c1427c4racb2ebfff2d38287@mail.gmail.com> References: <1213899453.25521.73.camel@sbrown-dev2> <64e45fca0806192030s5c1427c4racb2ebfff2d38287@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: > - Why such difficulty with extensibility? > > OK, there are cases that are valid, I don't know of a library that I can > natively read an OODoc spreadsheet in python where that exists in perl for > example. However, I think this is a biproduct of the "batteries included" > mindset, which i interpret as -- the python community has an acknowledged > preference for libraries that work to a fairly sound definition of "good > enough", and maybe there's no good-enough OODoc python library yet. > Still, in terms of discovery, perl has CPAN, and perl folks seem to like > ... well no, they seem to tolerate it. Does Python need an improved > CPAN? Or is Python so "batteries included" that it's either - the > language has it standard, or you're going to need google to find it? > There's probably a related question of how large are the community of > contributers and what are the barriers to entry, what is the relative merit > of 10 half-baked libraries targeted at slightly different use cases, vs 1 > that kicks butt. > > Still, I get "poor extensibility" as a top critique of python probably more > than anything else these days. The Python version of CPAN is PyPI. "easy_install whatever" will automatically compile C extension, pull down dependencies, etc. It doesn't come with Python, but it's easy to install, and most people use it. It's nice. Python is actually one of the most extensible languages: * Writing C extensions is easier in Python than in Perl or Java. * PyRex allows you to integrate with C using a Python/C hybrid that's easy and powerful. * You can call directly into C code using ctypes. * You can get access to Java and .NET libraries via Jython and IronPython respectively. Ok, one more: Q: Why does Python have non-OO crap? A: Because it's a multi-paradigm language. Sometimes a bit of functional programming (a la Lisp) really hits the spot. Sometimes, it's more natural to use OO. Sometimes a bit of imperative programming (a la C) does the trick. Even AOP has a place in Python. Being practical instead of dogmatic is a nice part of the Python personality. -jj -- I, for one, welcome our new Facebook overlords! http://jjinux.blogspot.com/ From aahz at pythoncraft.com Fri Jun 20 16:40:35 2008 From: aahz at pythoncraft.com (Aahz) Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2008 07:40:35 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Frequently Argued Objections In-Reply-To: <485B2E98.6060900@donbennett.org> References: <1213899453.25521.73.camel@sbrown-dev2> <485B2E98.6060900@donbennett.org> Message-ID: <20080620144035.GB27917@panix.com> On Thu, Jun 19, 2008, Don Bennett wrote: > > One objection I've heard a few times, "What's up with this global > interpreter lock?" > > It can come as a surprise to people trying to figure out why their > multi-threaded programs aren't as fast as they expected. http://www.pyzine.com/Issue001/Section_Articles/article_ThreadingGlobalInterpreter.html -- Aahz (aahz at pythoncraft.com) <*> http://www.pythoncraft.com/ "as long as we like the same operating system, things are cool." --piranha From aahz at pythoncraft.com Fri Jun 20 16:46:55 2008 From: aahz at pythoncraft.com (Aahz) Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2008 07:46:55 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Frequently Argued Objections In-Reply-To: <64e45fca0806192104h1b500930wc8b1ae1f8b951a01@mail.gmail.com> References: <1213899453.25521.73.camel@sbrown-dev2> <64e45fca0806192030s5c1427c4racb2ebfff2d38287@mail.gmail.com> <20080620034739.GB18900@panix.com> <64e45fca0806192104h1b500930wc8b1ae1f8b951a01@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20080620144655.GC27917@panix.com> On Thu, Jun 19, 2008, Seth Friedman wrote: > > i don't really understand what the material difference between > reference counting and GC is, or why it's so significant. or posed > differently, if ref counting is obviously so much cheaper/easier, why > can't java do it? not that i expect you to be able to answer that, > fraglets of info are interesting. Summary, vastly oversimplified (and probably containing some technical inaccuracies, particularly WRT current state of the art for GC): With reference counting, each object maintains an internal counter specifying how many references are attached to the object; when the counter goes to zero, the object deletes itself. This relies on every aspect of the system correctly manipulating the counter. GC goes the other direction, where an object is registered once at creation time, and separately there is a pointer linking in a chain from "root objects" to all other objects. Every once in a while, the chain is scanned to find objects that are registered but not linked. Such objects get deleted. GC requires less record-keeping, but it is non-deterministic when objects will be deleted. -- Aahz (aahz at pythoncraft.com) <*> http://www.pythoncraft.com/ "as long as we like the same operating system, things are cool." --piranha From aleax at google.com Sat Jun 21 02:02:43 2008 From: aleax at google.com (Alex Martelli) Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2008 17:02:43 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Frequently Argued Objections In-Reply-To: References: <1213899453.25521.73.camel@sbrown-dev2> <64e45fca0806192030s5c1427c4racb2ebfff2d38287@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <55dc209b0806201702r3e8ae69er855f3a7802e8d1d6@mail.gmail.com> On Fri, Jun 20, 2008 at 1:19 AM, Shannon -jj Behrens wrote: >> - Why such difficulty with extensibility? >> >> OK, there are cases that are valid, I don't know of a library that I can >> natively read an OODoc spreadsheet in python where that exists in perl for What about http://pypi.python.org/pypi/OOoPy/1.4.4873 ? >> enough", and maybe there's no good-enough OODoc python library yet. There are many (look on PyPi for OpenOffice) but I have had no need to use any of them so I don't know whether they're "good enough" (but why shouldn't they be? parsing XML from a zipfile is hardly rocket science...). >> Still, in terms of discovery, perl has CPAN, and perl folks seem to like >> ... well no, they seem to tolerate it. Does Python need an improved >> CPAN? ... >> Still, I get "poor extensibility" as a top critique of python probably more >> than anything else these days. > > The Python version of CPAN is PyPI. "easy_install whatever" will Yep, it's really weird to see PyPi totally ignored in such "critiques". I guess this boils down to the Python community as a whole being really bad at marketing, even compared to the Perl one, much less the Ruby one (the latter being great at it). Alex From sfseth at gmail.com Sat Jun 21 02:20:21 2008 From: sfseth at gmail.com (Seth Friedman) Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2008 17:20:21 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Frequently Argued Objections In-Reply-To: <55dc209b0806201702r3e8ae69er855f3a7802e8d1d6@mail.gmail.com> References: <1213899453.25521.73.camel@sbrown-dev2> <64e45fca0806192030s5c1427c4racb2ebfff2d38287@mail.gmail.com> <55dc209b0806201702r3e8ae69er855f3a7802e8d1d6@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <64e45fca0806201720p63f2b40ex9b7e7490a232f6e8@mail.gmail.com> Thanks for the PyPi tip. I will definitely look, I just didn't know of it prior to this thread. Which does speak to your point about the relative marketing prowess of the different communities - perhaps the lack of marketing of the python community is something that subconsciously appealed to me. :) ~seth On Fri, Jun 20, 2008 at 5:02 PM, Alex Martelli wrote: > On Fri, Jun 20, 2008 at 1:19 AM, Shannon -jj Behrens > wrote: > >> - Why such difficulty with extensibility? > >> > >> OK, there are cases that are valid, I don't know of a library that I can > >> natively read an OODoc spreadsheet in python where that exists in perl > for > > What about http://pypi.python.org/pypi/OOoPy/1.4.4873 ? > > >> enough", and maybe there's no good-enough OODoc python library yet. > > There are many (look on PyPi for OpenOffice) but I have had no need to > use any of them so I don't know whether they're "good enough" (but why > shouldn't they be? parsing XML from a zipfile is hardly rocket > science...). > > >> Still, in terms of discovery, perl has CPAN, and perl folks seem to like > >> ... well no, they seem to tolerate it. Does Python need an improved > >> CPAN? > ... > >> Still, I get "poor extensibility" as a top critique of python probably > more > >> than anything else these days. > > > > The Python version of CPAN is PyPI. "easy_install whatever" will > > Yep, it's really weird to see PyPi totally ignored in such "critiques". > > I guess this boils down to the Python community as a whole being > really bad at marketing, even compared to the Perl one, much less the > Ruby one (the latter being great at it). > > > Alex > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spmcinerney at hotmail.com Sat Jun 21 05:28:09 2008 From: spmcinerney at hotmail.com (Stephen McInerney) Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2008 20:28:09 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Frequently Argued Objections In-Reply-To: <1213899453.25521.73.camel@sbrown-dev2> References: <1213899453.25521.73.camel@sbrown-dev2> Message-ID: Shandy, Interesting questions all, and based on the ensuing discussion it's a hard discipline to draw a line between writing an FAQ answer, advocacy, evangelization, and drawing fair (or unfair) comparisons with other languages, vs bashing or raging. And hard to be concise at the same time, without sticking to one clear objective for an FAQ.* Coincidentally I was about to post this interesting-but-slightly-basic essay: "Python & Java: A Side-by-Side Comparison", Stephen Ferg, Jan 2007 http://www.ferg.org/projects/python_java_side-by-side.html Criticizing the library-fn name System.out.println() is fair game but not a valid critique of the entire language; but the comments on clunky things like auto-boxing and needing intermediate variables for list insertions are fair. In fact, Java has too many basic list and string types, but that's set in stone now. * There is also the "Python IAQ (Infrequently Asked Questions)" http://norvig.com/python-iaq.html and this guy's comments: http://theironlion.net/blog/python-infrequently-asked-questions/ As per his comment, I think one central question is "are the preferred idioms in this language design more expressive, productive, less error-prone and more runtime-efficient than language Y"? * and there are various other online pages critiquing language design ("Python warts"), a lot of which is arbitrary, out-of-date or made moot by 3.0 * Case-sensitivity is a total non-issue, it's universal these days. * Whereas the whitespace-and-no-braces policy is a legitimate question. Even among my expert programmer friends, people tend to historically associate rules on whitespace with generally being restrictive on programming style (prime example: Fortran). Call it a preconception, but it's very prevalent. Also, many editors, browsers, bulletin boards and websites totally mangle whitespace but not braces, hence it is objectively harder to post and retrieve Python code online than PERL,C,Java. vi's autoindent-with-noexpandtabs is also a prime culprit, especially for users with tabstops other than 4. These are all legitimate points, except again I would treat them as caveats to be aware of when exchanging code, rather than "flaws".* When you talk about the move to Unicode as default in Python 3.0, users can still use traditional strings if they (explicitly) choose, so that part at least should be easy for migrating existing codebases. We want to clearly separate out moans about scoping 3.0 migration, versus fundamental philosophy about where things should be going. In 10 years' time, will people expect languages to use Unicode seamlessly by default? Almost surely. >>Q5. Why is Pep-8 hard to read? >>Why don't Python docs link to sample code and a wiki? >>Why aren't usual "gotcha's" pointed out in the Python documentation. >[Charles] A5. Because you haven't rewritten the Python documentation. See above resources. Where would you suggest they be centrally linked from? As per Charles' response, the question might best be rephrased as "Which parts of Python documentation are most in need of volunteers (and how do I sign up)?" PEP-8 is good but pretty dense; folks, is there yet an Eclipse or other plugin that enforces (or flags) PEP-8 compliance, allowing me to opt out of some giudelines? Now that would be awesome. >Why isn't rgruet's quick reference guide part of the Python documentation? A worthy question for Fred Drake and Richard Gruet. As a sidenote, whichever documentation you rely on, you need volunteers constantly actively monitoring it and suggesting changes for deprecated features (e.g. methods of string objects). This is no small task. Why not list us your top-ten of doc sections you would like to overhaul? (I submitted a rewrite for the section on the 'with' keyword.) Best, Stephen > From: sjbrown at vmware.com > > I'm trying to compile a list of frequent objections against using Python > and a rational response to each. Basically the same format as an FAQ. > It occurs to me that perhaps someone in the community has already come > up with such a list. So... any links? > > Shandy _________________________________________________________________ Introducing Live Search cashback . It's search that pays you back! http://search.live.com/cashback/?&pkw=form=MIJAAF/publ=HMTGL/crea=introsrchcashback -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jjinux at gmail.com Sat Jun 21 08:07:46 2008 From: jjinux at gmail.com (Shannon -jj Behrens) Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2008 23:07:46 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Frequently Argued Objections In-Reply-To: References: <1213899453.25521.73.camel@sbrown-dev2> Message-ID: > PEP-8 is good but pretty dense; folks, is there yet an Eclipse or other plugin > that enforces (or flags) PEP-8 compliance, allowing me to opt out of some > giudelines? Now that would be awesome. I've read *a lot* of style guides, and PEP-8 is pretty decent. It's more useful than Perl's, yet smaller and easier to remember than Java's. Here's a script that will help you insure your code follows PEP-8: http://svn.browsershots.org/trunk/devtools/pep8/pep8.py Personally, I don't need it. I have a little voice in the back of my head that starts yelling at me anytime I see non-PEP-8 compliant code, whether it's mine or not ;) Happy Hacking! -jj -- It's a walled garden, but the flowers sure are lovely! http://jjinux.blogspot.com/ From jjinux at gmail.com Sat Jun 21 09:24:52 2008 From: jjinux at gmail.com (Shannon -jj Behrens) Date: Sat, 21 Jun 2008 00:24:52 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Reg Charney Message-ID: Does anyone know what happened to Reg Charney? I haven't seen him since he moved away and stopped leading BayPiggies. That was a great guy. -jj -- It's a walled garden, but the flowers sure are lovely! http://jjinux.blogspot.com/ From shaleh at speakeasy.net Sat Jun 21 19:37:45 2008 From: shaleh at speakeasy.net (Sean Perry) Date: Sat, 21 Jun 2008 10:37:45 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Frequently Argued Objections In-Reply-To: <1213899453.25521.73.camel@sbrown-dev2> References: <1213899453.25521.73.camel@sbrown-dev2> Message-ID: <485D3C69.4020003@speakeasy.net> As a setup, been coding Python on Linux since 1.5.2 came out. It is my preferred hacking language. I just type into my editor and the code tends to work within an edit/test cycle or too and off I go. *) none of my coworkers know Python. This hasn't changed since 1.5.2 came out. I am competent in Perl simply because every place I go that is the fallback language. *) I love the whitespace rule. When I get people to try the language for 20 minutes they like the whitespace rule. But getting people to try it is not easy. Kinda like say kimchi or natto (-: *) explicit self. Some cowboy hackers find this annoying, but most of the people I have programmed with like it. Explicit good! Most of the surface level complaints -- syntax, whitespace, self, etc. boil down to the explicit good / hackers like implicit religious war. *) the inconsistent standard library. Is it a function? A class? A method? CamelCase? To this day I despise " ".join(some_list). Give me string.join(" ", some_list) any day. But then, my 1.5 heritage is showing. *) now the annoying one. Management doesn't let me hack in Python because of the first item above *AND* the fact that it is a scripting language. Not being able to hide the source means I can only put Python in back-end server code where end users will never see it. This has never bothered me (I did mention my Linux heritage...) but it means Python only gets used for utility scripts by the engineers. Speed of execution has never been an issue for me. Developer efficiency has always been more important and the domains where Python can be used by me tend not to care but so much about timings. In my experience, Perl got the word of mouth thing right very early on. Then O'Reilly pushed it really, really hard. The first big web explosion helped too. MySQL is popular in part because it had Perl bindings really early. IMHO, Ruby would still be fringe language were it not for Rails. Python still lacks the obvious killer application. Django is helping for sure. But notice both Rails and Django are server side tech. From chad.netzer at gmail.com Sat Jun 21 19:58:41 2008 From: chad.netzer at gmail.com (Chad Netzer) Date: Sat, 21 Jun 2008 10:58:41 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Frequently Argued Objections In-Reply-To: <485D3C69.4020003@speakeasy.net> References: <1213899453.25521.73.camel@sbrown-dev2> <485D3C69.4020003@speakeasy.net> Message-ID: On Sat, Jun 21, 2008 at 10:37 AM, Sean Perry wrote: > *) the inconsistent standard library. Is it a function? A class? A method? > CamelCase? To this day I despise " ".join(some_list). Give me string.join(" > ", some_list) any day. But then, my 1.5 heritage is showing. $ python Python 2.5 (r25:51918, Sep 19 2006, 08:49:13) >>> a = list('1234') >>> a ['1', '2', '3', '4'] >>> str.join(",", a) '1,2,3,4' >>> str.join("", a) '1234' Perhaps you knew about this, but in case you didn't... Chad From joelvanderkwaak at yahoo.com Sat Jun 21 20:05:09 2008 From: joelvanderkwaak at yahoo.com (Joel VanderKwaak) Date: Sat, 21 Jun 2008 11:05:09 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Baypiggies] Frequently Argued Objections Message-ID: <452490.84118.qm@web50203.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Howdy, I work at a geophysics company in Santa Clara, and have written a fairly complex scheduler + parallel processing system using Python that allows us to split/merge large data sets onto/from a cluster and run c or fortran-based processing kernels on each data chunk. Sorta map-reduce in a gross sense, with the data movement, cat and sum operations handled using special mpi-enabled utilites. As a scale comparison, we ran a test recently that took 430,000 cpu hours (~50 years) in a couple weeks. My 2 cents here is that most of the geophysicists have picked up Python to create processing flows, chaining together multiple data processing steps. They often come to my office with Python questions, and often leave with comments like 'wow, that's really easy'. I'm sure they could do most things in perl or a shell script, but we're slowly becoming a 'python shop' for glue sort of code. The 'cool' thing is we can bundle up our combined work as a product and drop it into a single directory at a client, and it (usually) just works; the only prerequisit is python, ssh, and a farily robust network. One common complaint they have, appropriate givein their origins in scientific computing, is the lack of 'types' for variables. It's confusing to them at first, and has been the source of some bugs. I wrote a simple 'convert' function similar to those presented earlier on this list and the complaints have (mostly) dried up. Joel ----- Original Message ---- From: Sean Perry To: baypiggies at python.org Sent: Saturday, June 21, 2008 10:37:45 AM Subject: Re: [Baypiggies] Frequently Argued Objections As a setup, been coding Python on Linux since 1.5.2 came out. It is my preferred hacking language. I just type into my editor and the code tends to work within an edit/test cycle or too and off I go. *) none of my coworkers know Python. This hasn't changed since 1.5.2 came out. I am competent in Perl simply because every place I go that is the fallback language. *) I love the whitespace rule. When I get people to try the language for 20 minutes they like the whitespace rule. But getting people to try it is not easy. Kinda like say kimchi or natto (-: *) explicit self. Some cowboy hackers find this annoying, but most of the people I have programmed with like it. Explicit good! Most of the surface level complaints -- syntax, whitespace, self, etc. boil down to the explicit good / hackers like implicit religious war. *) the inconsistent standard library. Is it a function? A class? A method? CamelCase? To this day I despise " ".join(some_list). Give me string.join(" ", some_list) any day. But then, my 1.5 heritage is showing. *) now the annoying one. Management doesn't let me hack in Python because of the first item above *AND* the fact that it is a scripting language. Not being able to hide the source means I can only put Python in back-end server code where end users will never see it. This has never bothered me (I did mention my Linux heritage...) but it means Python only gets used for utility scripts by the engineers. Speed of execution has never been an issue for me. Developer efficiency has always been more important and the domains where Python can be used by me tend not to care but so much about timings. In my experience, Perl got the word of mouth thing right very early on. Then O'Reilly pushed it really, really hard. The first big web explosion helped too. MySQL is popular in part because it had Perl bindings really early. IMHO, Ruby would still be fringe language were it not for Rails. Python still lacks the obvious killer application. Django is helping for sure. But notice both Rails and Django are server side tech. _______________________________________________ Baypiggies mailing list Baypiggies at python.org To change your subscription options or unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From warren at muse.com Sat Jun 21 20:18:12 2008 From: warren at muse.com (Warren Stringer) Date: Sat, 21 Jun 2008 11:18:12 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Frequently Argued Objections In-Reply-To: <485D3C69.4020003@speakeasy.net> References: <1213899453.25521.73.camel@sbrown-dev2> <485D3C69.4020003@speakeasy.net> Message-ID: <57995952-CC00-4184-B974-47EFD9CE008A@muse.com> On Jun 21, 2008, at 10:37 AM, Sean Perry wrote: > *) explicit self. Some cowboy hackers find this annoying, but most > of the people I have programmed with like it. Explicit good! Most of > the surface level complaints -- syntax, whitespace, self, etc. boil > down to the explicit good / hackers like implicit religious war. Yee HAW! Here, have some beef jerky while I explain why us cowboy programmers are annoyed: Self has to be explicitly used yet is implicitly passed as a parameter. Second, when counting keywords in the standard python library, "self" is the most common keyword, beating the 2nd most common keyword by almost a factor of two. I mentioned this to JJ, who says that he uses self and non-self in the same code base. I would love to see an example where this is useful, where the NRO wouldn't suffice. As a mere tenderfoot Pythonista, all I see "self" doing is obfuscating the wide open white spaces that I have grown to love. A compromise would be to use dot as self, as in Sun's new scripting language (of which I don't plan to use). As far as I can tell, dot as self would not break the existing code base. And yes, syntax highlight could grey out self. But greyed self still spoils vertical alignment. My 2 centavos, Warren From hjtoi at comcast.net Sun Jun 22 00:20:01 2008 From: hjtoi at comcast.net (Heikki Toivonen) Date: Sat, 21 Jun 2008 15:20:01 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Frequently Argued Objections In-Reply-To: References: <1213899453.25521.73.camel@sbrown-dev2> Message-ID: <485D7E91.2000303@comcast.net> Stephen McInerney wrote: > PEP-8 is good but pretty dense; folks, is there yet an Eclipse or other > plugin > that enforces (or flags) PEP-8 compliance, allowing me to opt out of some > giudelines? Now that would be awesome. You can configure Pydev to use Pylint. It does a lot more than flag PEP-8 issues, and is one of the main reasons why I actually use Eclipse+Pydev+Pylint. -- Heikki Toivonen From jjinux at gmail.com Sun Jun 22 04:09:23 2008 From: jjinux at gmail.com (Shannon -jj Behrens) Date: Sat, 21 Jun 2008 19:09:23 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Frequently Argued Objections In-Reply-To: <485D3C69.4020003@speakeasy.net> References: <1213899453.25521.73.camel@sbrown-dev2> <485D3C69.4020003@speakeasy.net> Message-ID: On Sat, Jun 21, 2008 at 10:37 AM, Sean Perry wrote: > *) none of my coworkers know Python. This hasn't changed since 1.5.2 came > out. I am competent in Perl simply because every place I go that is the > fallback language. I hate when people don't grow. That says something about their quality as engineers :( > *) the inconsistent standard library. Is it a function? A class? A method? Agreed! > *) now the annoying one. Management doesn't let me hack in Python because of > the first item above *AND* the fact that it is a scripting language. Not > being able to hide the source means I can only put Python in back-end server > code where end users will never see it. This has never bothered me (I did > mention my Linux heritage...) but it means Python only gets used for utility > scripts by the engineers. Have you considered distributing just the .pyc's? I though Jython also had an option to compile down to a .java file, which you could compile if you're using the JVM. Happy Hacking! -jj -- It's a walled garden, but the flowers sure are lovely! http://jjinux.blogspot.com/ From jjinux at gmail.com Sun Jun 22 04:13:43 2008 From: jjinux at gmail.com (Shannon -jj Behrens) Date: Sat, 21 Jun 2008 19:13:43 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Frequently Argued Objections In-Reply-To: <57995952-CC00-4184-B974-47EFD9CE008A@muse.com> References: <1213899453.25521.73.camel@sbrown-dev2> <485D3C69.4020003@speakeasy.net> <57995952-CC00-4184-B974-47EFD9CE008A@muse.com> Message-ID: On Sat, Jun 21, 2008 at 11:18 AM, Warren Stringer wrote: > Yee HAW! Here, have some beef jerky while I explain why us cowboy > programmers are annoyed: Self has to be explicitly used yet is implicitly > passed as a parameter. Second, when counting keywords in the standard python > library, "self" is the most common keyword, beating the 2nd most common > keyword by almost a factor of two. I mentioned this to JJ, who says that he > uses self and non-self in the same code base. I would love to see an example > where this is useful, where the NRO wouldn't suffice. As a mere tenderfoot > Pythonista, all I see "self" doing is obfuscating the wide open white spaces > that I have grown to love. Are you sure it was me? Are you referring to calling self by another name? I might have said it's possible, but I don't remember ever doing it. -jj -- It's a walled garden, but the flowers sure are lovely! http://jjinux.blogspot.com/ From warren at muse.com Sun Jun 22 19:25:03 2008 From: warren at muse.com (Warren Stringer) Date: Sun, 22 Jun 2008 10:25:03 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Frequently Argued Objections In-Reply-To: References: <1213899453.25521.73.camel@sbrown-dev2> <485D3C69.4020003@speakeasy.net> <57995952-CC00-4184-B974-47EFD9CE008A@muse.com> Message-ID: On Jun 21, 2008, at 7:13 PM, Shannon -jj Behrens wrote: > On Sat, Jun 21, 2008 at 11:18 AM, Warren Stringer > wrote: >> Yee HAW! Here, have some beef jerky while I explain why us cowboy >> programmers are annoyed: Self has to be explicitly used yet is >> implicitly >> passed as a parameter. Second, when counting keywords in the >> standard python >> library, "self" is the most common keyword, beating the 2nd most >> common >> keyword by almost a factor of two. I mentioned this to JJ, who says >> that he >> uses self and non-self in the same code base. I would love to see >> an example >> where this is useful, where the NRO wouldn't suffice. As a mere >> tenderfoot >> Pythonista, all I see "self" doing is obfuscating the wide open >> white spaces >> that I have grown to love. > > Are you sure it was me? Are you referring to calling self by another > name? I might have said it's possible, but I don't remember ever > doing it. > > -jj Well, unfortunately, there is no google desktop style search for real- life (at least yet). If there was, I would put in the keywords "apps engine conference brown shirt jj" to call up our conversation around a circular table at a recent google event in San Francisco. I mentioned the self part, but may have left out the keyword count. This wasn't about calling self by some other name. To be honest, I wasn't sure of your reply. I thought that perhaps it had to do with class factories. *Is* there a reason to NOT use self? If not, then self is redundant. If the reason to use self is to bypass name resolution order, then I would suggest making the less common case explicit and the more common one implicit. Since we're taIking about Objections, I find the statement "explicit is good", without a justification, to be Objectionable. The only truly explicit computer language is a circuit diagram. Even assembly language is implicit; anything with op codes is a transformation of an explicit routing of electrical charges to an implicit pattern that acts on an operand. Higher level languages build upon lower level ones by transforming explicit combinations into an implicit pattern. IMO, languages evolve by compressing complexity. Just as Morse Code compressed symbols tapped by hand over a wire, where the most common symbol "E" required a single tap. Python reduces complexity by removing the redundancy created by the often unnecessary enforcement of policy with typed variables and by removing the redundancy of using begin/end symbols (for the compiler) along with whitespace (for the human coders), when simply using whitespace would suffice. As a result, Python is a more concise by making coding policy implicit. However, Python is less concise when it enforces a policy about making name resolution order explicit. From a statistical viewpoint, this is akin to a Morse Code that assigning a single tap, not to the letter 'E', where it belongs, but to the letter 'Z'. While some people may see "self" as an issue of faith, others see it as a statistical anomaly (in an otherwise compact language). Cheers, \~/ From baypiggies at atoulou.se Sun Jun 22 19:54:39 2008 From: baypiggies at atoulou.se (Andrew Toulouse) Date: Sun, 22 Jun 2008 10:54:39 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Frequently Argued Objections In-Reply-To: References: <1213899453.25521.73.camel@sbrown-dev2> <485D3C69.4020003@speakeasy.net> <57995952-CC00-4184-B974-47EFD9CE008A@muse.com> Message-ID: No true Scotsman. Even circuit diagrams aren't completely explicit, since they can be fabricated in any number of arrangements that affect signal integrity. That's not the point. I like 'explicit is good' because I absolutely *hate* it when hand-waving magic happens that is either not extremely well-documented or extremely well-understood. I've always hated when languages force me to use an implicit 'self' or 'this' because if I don't immediately realize I'm looking at a class method as opposed to a function I need to reread the whole function with the right scope in my head. In my opinion, Python doesn't exist directly to express complexity concisely, but rather to express complexity *clearly*. I don't think there's any universal purpose to high-level languages, either, beyond some vague common theme of abstracting out details for either conciseness or clarity or what have you. --Andy P.S. sorry for those of you who are getting my emails twice; i keep on forgetting to change which email I send this from. On Sun, Jun 22, 2008 at 10:25 AM, Warren Stringer wrote: > [[[snip]]] > > *Is* there a reason to NOT use self? If not, then self is redundant. If the > reason to use self is to bypass name resolution order, then I would suggest > making the less common case explicit and the more common one implicit. > > Since we're taIking about Objections, I find the statement "explicit is > good", without a justification, to be Objectionable. The only truly > explicit computer language is a circuit diagram. Even assembly language is > implicit; anything with op codes is a transformation of an explicit routing > of electrical charges to an implicit pattern that acts on an operand. Higher > level languages build upon lower level ones by transforming explicit > combinations into an implicit pattern. > > IMO, languages evolve by compressing complexity. Just as Morse Code > compressed symbols tapped by hand over a wire, where the most common symbol > "E" required a single tap. Python reduces complexity by removing the > redundancy created by the often unnecessary enforcement of policy with typed > variables and by removing the redundancy of using begin/end symbols (for the > compiler) along with whitespace (for the human coders), when simply using > whitespace would suffice. As a result, Python is a more concise by making > coding policy implicit. However, Python is less concise when it enforces a > policy about making name resolution order explicit. From a statistical > viewpoint, this is akin to a Morse Code that assigning a single tap, not to > the letter 'E', where it belongs, but to the letter 'Z'. > > While some people may see "self" as an issue of faith, others see it as a > statistical anomaly (in an otherwise compact language). > > Cheers, > > \~/ > > _______________________________________________ > Baypiggies mailing list > Baypiggies at python.org > To change your subscription options or unsubscribe: > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rdm at cfcl.com Sun Jun 22 20:44:29 2008 From: rdm at cfcl.com (Rich Morin) Date: Sun, 22 Jun 2008 11:44:29 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] BASS Meeting (SF), Wed. June 25 Message-ID: The Beer and Scripting SIG rides again! If you'd like to eat good Italian food, chat with other local scripters, and possibly take a look at laptop-demoed scripting hacks, this is the place to do it! For your convenience, here are the critical details: Date: Wednesday, June 25, 2008 (4th. Wed.) Time: 8:00 pm Place: Pasquales Pizzeria 701 Irving St. (At 8th. Ave.) San Francisco, California, USA 415/661-2140 See the BASS web page for more information: http://cfcl.com/rdm/bass/ -r -- http://www.cfcl.com/rdm Rich Morin http://www.cfcl.com/rdm/resume rdm at cfcl.com http://www.cfcl.com/rdm/weblog +1 650-873-7841 Technical editing and writing, programming, and web development From glen at glenjarvis.com Sun Jun 22 20:16:03 2008 From: glen at glenjarvis.com (Glen Jarvis) Date: Sun, 22 Jun 2008 11:16:03 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Frequently Argued Objections In-Reply-To: <3DBF7077-B456-45CD-A2E5-1996212C5A5A@glenjarvis.com> References: <1213899453.25521.73.camel@sbrown-dev2> <485D3C69.4020003@speakeasy.net> <57995952-CC00-4184-B974-47EFD9CE008A@muse.com> <3DBF7077-B456-45CD-A2E5-1996212C5A5A@glenjarvis.com> Message-ID: By the way, the only reason I realized that we could have gotten to "bikeshedding" is because I also fall very heavily into the religion of code. I have strong beliefs about what is "right." And, my poor farmer father told me enough times growing up "A job worth doing is worth doing right." I have strong feelings about doing things right, but hit my head up against the wall sometimes in our community about "what right is." I know because recently some fellow workers finally sent me the note "But, I wanted a Blue Bike Shed =)" before I realized that I was splitting hairs a bit too much about the PEP-8 standard. I'm pretty "Adrian monkish" about it. So, I only wanted to add - I'm not blameless and I do completely understand almost all sides of any 'religious code' discussions -- as long as they are enforcing 'doing things right' instead of 'doing things lazily'. With that disclaimer said, and with my tongue placed firmly in cheek, I fall back onto "But, I want a Turquoise Bike Shed" =) Cheers, Glen -- 415-680-3964 glen at glenjarvis.com http://www.glenjarvis.com "You must be the change you wish to see in the world." -M. Gandhi On Jun 22, 2008, at 11:07 AM, Glen Jarvis wrote: > But, I want a Turquoise Bike Shed =) > > > -- > 415-680-3964 > glen at glenjarvis.com > http://www.glenjarvis.com > > "You must be the change you wish to see in the world." -M. Gandhi From warren at muse.com Sun Jun 22 21:19:47 2008 From: warren at muse.com (Warren Stringer) Date: Sun, 22 Jun 2008 12:19:47 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Frequently Argued Objections In-Reply-To: References: <1213899453.25521.73.camel@sbrown-dev2> <485D3C69.4020003@speakeasy.net> <57995952-CC00-4184-B974-47EFD9CE008A@muse.com> Message-ID: <85AFC048-AB0C-46DE-9036-24E2DD5BCB7E@muse.com> Hey Andy, Point well taken about *clear* versus *concise*, though, ironically, when looking up both words, I found the Merriam-Webster definition of 'concise' (with one definition) to be more clear than that of 'clear' (with six definitions). My interpretation of your statement is that some redundancy is useful. Agreed; for example: The advantage to Ruby is that it makes it easy for me to create a domain specific language. The problem with Ruby is that it makes it easy for everyone else to make a domain specific language. So, I am more likely to send more time, while reading someone else's Ruby code, in figuring out their codec, as it were. With Python, the codec remains static. There is usually some symbol redundancy in a static codec. But, that means it will be easier for me to read your code and vice versa. As for "hand-waving magic happens that is either not extremely well- documented or extremely well-understood." Is that a problem with implicit self or a badly managed namespace? It is still possible to write obscure Python code. I would like to see a Python example, using explicit self, compared to a fake-Python version of the same example, using implicit self, that demonstrates how the former is clearer than the later. Hopefully, both examples will follow a few best practices in managing namespace; less convincing would be to use -say- a global function with the same name as a class method. \~/ On Jun 22, 2008, at 10:54 AM, Andrew Toulouse wrote: > No true Scotsman. Even circuit diagrams aren't completely explicit, > since they can be fabricated in any number of arrangements that > affect signal integrity. That's not the point. I like 'explicit is > good' because I absolutely *hate* it when hand-waving magic happens > that is either not extremely well-documented or extremely well- > understood. > > I've always hated when languages force me to use an implicit 'self' > or 'this' because if I don't immediately realize I'm looking at a > class method as opposed to a function I need to reread the whole > function with the right scope in my head. In my opinion, Python > doesn't exist directly to express complexity concisely, but rather > to express complexity *clearly*. I don't think there's any universal > purpose to high-level languages, either, beyond some vague common > theme of abstracting out details for either conciseness or clarity > or what have you. > > --Andy > > P.S. sorry for those of you who are getting my emails twice; i keep > on forgetting to change which email I send this from. > > On Sun, Jun 22, 2008 at 10:25 AM, Warren Stringer > wrote: > [[[snip]]] > > *Is* there a reason to NOT use self? If not, then self is redundant. > If the reason to use self is to bypass name resolution order, then I > would suggest making the less common case explicit and the more > common one implicit. > > Since we're taIking about Objections, I find the statement "explicit > is good", without a justification, to be Objectionable. The only > truly explicit computer language is a circuit diagram. Even assembly > language is implicit; anything with op codes is a transformation of > an explicit routing of electrical charges to an implicit pattern > that acts on an operand. Higher level languages build upon lower > level ones by transforming explicit combinations into an implicit > pattern. > > IMO, languages evolve by compressing complexity. Just as Morse Code > compressed symbols tapped by hand over a wire, where the most common > symbol "E" required a single tap. Python reduces complexity by > removing the redundancy created by the often unnecessary enforcement > of policy with typed variables and by removing the redundancy of > using begin/end symbols (for the compiler) along with whitespace > (for the human coders), when simply using whitespace would suffice. > As a result, Python is a more concise by making coding policy > implicit. However, Python is less concise when it enforces a policy > about making name resolution order explicit. From a statistical > viewpoint, this is akin to a Morse Code that assigning a single tap, > not to the letter 'E', where it belongs, but to the letter 'Z'. > > While some people may see "self" as an issue of faith, others see it > as a statistical anomaly (in an otherwise compact language). > > Cheers, > > \~/ > > _______________________________________________ > Baypiggies mailing list > Baypiggies at python.org > To change your subscription options or unsubscribe: > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From glen at glenjarvis.com Sun Jun 22 20:07:00 2008 From: glen at glenjarvis.com (Glen Jarvis) Date: Sun, 22 Jun 2008 11:07:00 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Frequently Argued Objections In-Reply-To: References: <1213899453.25521.73.camel@sbrown-dev2> <485D3C69.4020003@speakeasy.net> <57995952-CC00-4184-B974-47EFD9CE008A@muse.com> Message-ID: <3DBF7077-B456-45CD-A2E5-1996212C5A5A@glenjarvis.com> But, I want a Turquoise Bike Shed =) -- 415-680-3964 glen at glenjarvis.com http://www.glenjarvis.com "You must be the change you wish to see in the world." -M. Gandhi From ben at groovie.org Sun Jun 22 22:25:18 2008 From: ben at groovie.org (Ben Bangert) Date: Sun, 22 Jun 2008 13:25:18 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Frequently Argued Objections In-Reply-To: <485D3C69.4020003@speakeasy.net> References: <1213899453.25521.73.camel@sbrown-dev2> <485D3C69.4020003@speakeasy.net> Message-ID: <9B7A97D1-F50B-4F2C-810F-7ED64A3FDB1B@groovie.org> On Jun 21, 2008, at 10:37 AM, Sean Perry wrote: > In my experience, Perl got the word of mouth thing right very early > on. Then O'Reilly pushed it really, really hard. The first big web > explosion helped too. MySQL is popular in part because it had Perl > bindings really early. IMHO, Ruby would still be fringe language > were it not for Rails. Python still lacks the obvious killer > application. Django is helping for sure. But notice both Rails and > Django are server side tech I do have to note something as a former O'Reilly employee. They merely have editors trying to gauge what's hot, and get books out there that sell. They did a good job catching the rise of Perl, and missed out the first time on Ruby (thus were late to the Rails book spree). It seems a little silly to say "O'Reilly pushes really really hard" as the reason for something getting popular, they're merely involved in a feedback loop of buyers. More people buy one language of book, so they try and fill out that language with more and more books (they do sell books after all). If books don't sell, they scale back that language (to avoid losing money, its just a business). O'Reilly has put out quite a few Python books (even obscure ones like Bio-informatics with Python), including the insanely thick Programming Python book, which is about 90% non-server side related. Maybe having a copy of that around might entice your coworkers? :) If not, you could always use it as a door-stop. Cheers, Ben -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: smime.p7s Type: application/pkcs7-signature Size: 2507 bytes Desc: not available URL: From mac at Wireless.Com Mon Jun 23 00:22:51 2008 From: mac at Wireless.Com (Mike Cheponis) Date: Sun, 22 Jun 2008 15:22:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Baypiggies] Frequently Argued Objections In-Reply-To: References: <1213899453.25521.73.camel@sbrown-dev2> <485D3C69.4020003@speakeasy.net> <57995952-CC00-4184-B974-47EFD9CE008A@muse.com> Message-ID: I absolutely love the concept of "self". When I write code, just to be a cowboy, too, I use "me" instead of "self" - which is shorter, and helps me to focus on where the variable/method lives. I totally _hate_ the implicit "this" parameter seen in so many other languages. Magic is to be reserved for the likes of David Copperfield. For Programming, I want _everything_ exposed -- or, at least, be exposable. If you're a Real Programmer (tm), I bet you do, too. -Mike On Sat, 21 Jun 2008, Shannon -jj Behrens wrote: > On Sat, Jun 21, 2008 at 11:18 AM, Warren Stringer wrote: >> Yee HAW! Here, have some beef jerky while I explain why us cowboy >> programmers are annoyed: Self has to be explicitly used yet is implicitly >> passed as a parameter. Second, when counting keywords in the standard python >> library, "self" is the most common keyword, beating the 2nd most common >> keyword by almost a factor of two. I mentioned this to JJ, who says that he >> uses self and non-self in the same code base. I would love to see an example >> where this is useful, where the NRO wouldn't suffice. As a mere tenderfoot >> Pythonista, all I see "self" doing is obfuscating the wide open white spaces >> that I have grown to love. > > Are you sure it was me? Are you referring to calling self by another > name? I might have said it's possible, but I don't remember ever > doing it. > > -jj From john_re at fastmail.us Mon Jun 23 03:05:24 2008 From: john_re at fastmail.us (john_re) Date: Sun, 22 Jun 2008 18:05:24 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] CARPOOL Monday23June futuresalon.org CrowdOpenSourcedMobileDevices Message-ID: <1214183124.3883.1259804511@webmail.messagingengine.com> Want to offer a carpool ride for this event in Palo Alto, CA? Ride offered from Berkeley if you will split gas/bridgetoll. Email me your phone#. futuresalon requests you RSVP at the link below too. Please email me if you decide to go to this (even if you don't carpool), so I'll get an idea as to if this event is of interest to Baypiggies members. Thaks. ===== http://www.futuresalon.org/2008/06/mobile-devices.html Crowd and Open Sourced Mobile Devices Future Salon O.K. everyone let's all stop the drooling over the iPhone. There are in my opinion more interesting developments happening in the mobile handheld space. Two of them we will look at on Monday the 23rd of June at our usual hang out SAP Labs. First there is Ismael Ghalimi who gave away at his Office 2.0 conference one year an iPod Nano, last year an iPhone and had the crazy idea, that the participants of the conference could develop with him the device for this year's Office 2.0. He calls it the Redux Model 1. In his own words: The more interesting option would be to build our own device. By that I mean designing, certifying, and manufacturing our very own piece of hardware, all in the one year that separates us for the next Office 2.0 Conference. Today?s engineering processes make such a challenge technically feasible, but for someone who has never done it before, and has no engineering budget for it, this is virtually impossible, so by all means, please assume that we will fail and have to revert to option 1. But if you dare to dream with us for a moment, feel free to read what follows.[more] Last time I talked with him he was looking for a CEO for the venture, but not certain whether it will be available for Office 2.0. Still the approach of getting input from his network and publically develop a new device is such a novel approach, that I invited him to speak about his experiences. Buglabs_bug_2Another interesting development I found at Buglabs. Doc Searls is convinced, that the IT industry is going to develop similar to the construction industry. Check out this article: This change in perception is tied to the relative (im)maturity of the computer indus- try; when it finishes growing up, it will look much like the construction industry. Now the folks at Buglabs have created a mobile base station that they call the bug and they have many modules that you can connect to it like Lego blocks. The cool thing is, that software as well as hardware is Open Source, that means there is only a limit in imagination and funds to possible extensions of the bug. Jeremy Toeman from Buglabs will present their approach and current status. He also promised to bring some bugs and extensions. It is going to be very interesting. Jeremy Toeman (JT) is an expert in digital media and consumer technology. Over the past ten years he has designed, built, and marketed numerous award-winning products in the ?convergence? space. Jeremy is currently the VP of Marketing for Bug Labs, and is also a consultant advising companies on both product design and deployment as well as non-traditional marketing (such as community-driven) strategies. Ismael Ghalimi [LinkedIn], a passionate entrepreneur and fervent industry observer, founder and CEO of Intalio, creator of BPMI.org, initiator of the BPM 2.0 movement, producer of the Office 2.0 Conference, organizer of the Extreme Productivity Seminars, and designer of the Redux Model 1. Ismael is an advisor to several high-tech companies, including 3TERA, AdventNet (a.k.a. Zoho), Buzzgain, Diigo, EchoSign, EveryTrail, G.ho.st, Move & Play, and ThinkFree. Ismael is a professional scuba diver, instrument rated private pilot, and American V-Twin rider. Ismael lives with his wife and daughter in Palo Alto, CA, and can be reached at ismael at itredux.com. Future Salons have the following structure: 6-7pm is networking with light refreshments proudly sponsored by SAP; 7-9+pm is the presentation followed by questions and discussion. SAP Labs North America, Building D, Room Southern Cross or Cafeteria depending on number of RSVPs. SAP is located at 3410 Hillview Avenue, Palo Alto, CA 94304[map]. Free and open to the public. Please spread the word and invite others, but be sure to RSVP so we know how many people to expect. From aahz at pythoncraft.com Mon Jun 23 05:45:01 2008 From: aahz at pythoncraft.com (Aahz) Date: Sun, 22 Jun 2008 20:45:01 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Frequently Argued Objections In-Reply-To: <57995952-CC00-4184-B974-47EFD9CE008A@muse.com> References: <1213899453.25521.73.camel@sbrown-dev2> <485D3C69.4020003@speakeasy.net> <57995952-CC00-4184-B974-47EFD9CE008A@muse.com> Message-ID: <20080623034501.GA6989@panix.com> On Sat, Jun 21, 2008, Warren Stringer wrote: > > Yee HAW! Here, have some beef jerky while I explain why us cowboy > programmers are annoyed: Self has to be explicitly used yet is > implicitly passed as a parameter. Second, when counting keywords in > the standard python library, "self" is the most common keyword, > beating the 2nd most common keyword by almost a factor of two. I > mentioned this to JJ, who says that he uses self and non-self in the > same code base. I would love to see an example where this is useful, > where the NRO wouldn't suffice. As a mere tenderfoot Pythonista, all I > see "self" doing is obfuscating the wide open white spaces that I have > grown to love. Actually, it's only half-true that self is passed implicitly as an argument (you are wrong that it is passed implicitly as a parameter): the object you manipulate is the self. You can look at it as either implicit or explicit, but really it's kind of a gray area. As for the need to use self explicitly within the body, there's imply no other way in a dynamic language like Python to clearly specify whether you're referring to the function/method namespace or the object namespace. (For anyone confused, "parameter" refers to the formal declaration as part of the function/method definition while "argument" refers to the object passed at call time.) -- Aahz (aahz at pythoncraft.com) <*> http://www.pythoncraft.com/ "as long as we like the same operating system, things are cool." --piranha From echerlin at gmail.com Mon Jun 23 08:40:49 2008 From: echerlin at gmail.com (Edward Cherlin) Date: Sun, 22 Jun 2008 23:40:49 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Fwd: [OLPC-SF] [Fwd: [Grassroots-l] OLPC GrassCon Group Invitation] In-Reply-To: <485E7BF4.2050502@sfsu.edu> References: <485E7BF4.2050502@sfsu.edu> Message-ID: FYI. ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Sameer Verma Date: Sun, Jun 22, 2008 at 9:21 AM Subject: [OLPC-SF] [Fwd: [Grassroots-l] OLPC GrassCon Group Invitation] To: "olpc-sf at lists.laptop.org" FYI Sameer -- Dr. Sameer Verma, Ph.D. Associate Professor of Information Systems San Francisco State University San Francisco CA 94132 USA http://verma.sfsu.edu/ http://opensource.sfsu.edu/ If there are any more groups that would like to participate in the OLPC Grassroots Web Conference (GrassCon), please get in touch with us as soon as possible. For those of you who don't know about GrassCon, I've copy/pasted the description from the site. Thanks. -Alex Keybl GrassCon Coordinator The OLPC Grassroots Web Conference was started to increase communication between grassroots projects, as well as increase the general visibility of OLPC projects around the world. This ranges from software/hardware development to pilot programs and public awareness campaigns. We want to hear about what's going on, from the mouths of those involved. The theme of this conference will be "From Code to Kids". Presenters will be helping us trace the path of XO Sugar activities from software development to getting the activities into the hands of children. We will be holding the conference as a live streaming event with participants from around the world. Conference goers will be able to ask questions of presenters, and the entire conference will be recorded and archived. GrassCon will be held on July 19th at 10 AM EST. The time of the conference has been decided upon to allow for the most participants from around the world. Click here for time zone conversions. _______________________________________________ Grassroots mailing list Grassroots at lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/grassroots _______________________________________________ OLPC-SF mailing list OLPC-SF at lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/olpc-sf -- Edward Cherlin End Poverty at a Profit by teaching children business http://www.EarthTreasury.org/ "The best way to predict the future is to invent it."--Alan Kay From kelly at nttmcl.com Mon Jun 23 08:53:08 2008 From: kelly at nttmcl.com (Kelly Yancey) Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2008 15:53:08 +0900 Subject: [Baypiggies] Frequently Argued Objections In-Reply-To: References: <1213899453.25521.73.camel@sbrown-dev2> <485D3C69.4020003@speakeasy.net> <57995952-CC00-4184-B974-47EFD9CE008A@muse.com> Message-ID: <485F4854.8090500@nttmcl.com> Warren Stringer wrote: > On Jun 21, 2008, at 7:13 PM, Shannon -jj Behrens wrote: > >> On Sat, Jun 21, 2008 at 11:18 AM, Warren Stringer >> wrote: >>> Yee HAW! Here, have some beef jerky while I explain why us cowboy >>> programmers are annoyed: Self has to be explicitly used yet is >>> implicitly >>> passed as a parameter. Second, when counting keywords in the standard >>> python >>> library, "self" is the most common keyword, beating the 2nd most common >>> keyword by almost a factor of two. I mentioned this to JJ, who says >>> that he >>> uses self and non-self in the same code base. I would love to see an >>> example >>> where this is useful, where the NRO wouldn't suffice. As a mere >>> tenderfoot >>> Pythonista, all I see "self" doing is obfuscating the wide open white >>> spaces >>> that I have grown to love. >> >> Are you sure it was me? Are you referring to calling self by another >> name? I might have said it's possible, but I don't remember ever >> doing it. >> >> -jj > > > *Is* there a reason to NOT use self? If not, then self is redundant. If > the reason to use self is to bypass name resolution order, then I would > suggest making the less common case explicit and the more common one > implicit. > I admit, I have had to call self by another name on a couple of occasions. Specifically, I had a factory method in one class that returned instances of a dynamically-created class. The returned objects had methods that referenced both their own instance's attributes and attributes of the factory method's parent object (via closure). Since there were two objects involved, I used self to refer to the factory-generated object itself, and had the factory method use a different name for its own object reference argument so the generated object could still access both. Complicated? Sure. Possible with implicit self? Nope. Kelly * In case anyone is curious, the dynamically-created classes where ctypes.Structure subclasses whose fields depended on the OS (hence the need for a factory). The structures contained pointers into a data structure represented by the factory method's class (also a ctypes.Structure subclass) so references needed to be held to the parent object to prevent it being GC'ed prematurely. -- Kelly Yancey http://kbyanc.blogspot.com/ From jjinux at gmail.com Mon Jun 23 11:48:58 2008 From: jjinux at gmail.com (Shannon -jj Behrens) Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2008 02:48:58 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Frequently Argued Objections In-Reply-To: <85AFC048-AB0C-46DE-9036-24E2DD5BCB7E@muse.com> References: <1213899453.25521.73.camel@sbrown-dev2> <485D3C69.4020003@speakeasy.net> <57995952-CC00-4184-B974-47EFD9CE008A@muse.com> <85AFC048-AB0C-46DE-9036-24E2DD5BCB7E@muse.com> Message-ID: Let's make it really fun: from thirdparty import * class A(B): def bar(): # Assuming we have implicit self. foo() Now, did foo come from: * The parent class B? * Something in thirdparty? * Something in thirdparty that someone else shoved in there dynamically? * Something in builtins that someone else shoved in there dynamically? * Some global in the current module that's a few hundred lines down? * Some global in the current module that someone else shoved in from a third-party module? ;) Using self cuts down on the possibilities which: a) Saves the interpreter from doing a bunch of useless dict lookups. b) Saves the reader from trying to figure out what's going on. As a blanket statement, polymorphism can be confusing. When I see "self", at least it's a good sign that I should start looking at either the class's documentation or one of its ancestor's documentation. -jj On Sun, Jun 22, 2008 at 12:19 PM, Warren Stringer wrote: > Hey Andy, > Point well taken about *clear* versus *concise*, though, ironically, when > looking up both words, I found the Merriam-Webster definition of 'concise' > (with one definition) to be more clear than that of 'clear' (with six > definitions). My interpretation of your statement is that some redundancy is > useful. Agreed; for example: > The advantage to Ruby is that it makes it easy for me to create a domain > specific language. The problem with Ruby is that it makes it easy for > everyone else to make a domain specific language. So, I am more likely to > send more time, while reading someone else's Ruby code, in figuring out > their codec, as it were. With Python, the codec remains static. There is > usually some symbol redundancy in a static codec. But, that means it will be > easier for me to read your code and vice versa. > As for "hand-waving magic happens that is either not extremely > well-documented or extremely well-understood." Is that a problem with > implicit self or a badly managed namespace? It is still possible to write > obscure Python code. I would like to see a Python example, using explicit > self, compared to a fake-Python version of the same example, using implicit > self, that demonstrates how the former is clearer than the later. Hopefully, > both examples will follow a few best practices in managing namespace; less > convincing would be to use -say- a global function with the same name as a > class method. > \~/ > On Jun 22, 2008, at 10:54 AM, Andrew Toulouse wrote: > > No true Scotsman. Even circuit diagrams aren't completely explicit, since > they can be fabricated in any number of arrangements that affect signal > integrity. That's not the point. I like 'explicit is good' because I > absolutely *hate* it when hand-waving magic happens that is either not > extremely well-documented or extremely well-understood. > > I've always hated when languages force me to use an implicit 'self' or > 'this' because if I don't immediately realize I'm looking at a class method > as opposed to a function I need to reread the whole function with the right > scope in my head. In my opinion, Python doesn't exist directly to express > complexity concisely, but rather to express complexity *clearly*. I don't > think there's any universal purpose to high-level languages, either, beyond > some vague common theme of abstracting out details for either conciseness or > clarity or what have you. > > --Andy > > P.S. sorry for those of you who are getting my emails twice; i keep on > forgetting to change which email I send this from. > > On Sun, Jun 22, 2008 at 10:25 AM, Warren Stringer wrote: >> >> [[[snip]]] >> >> *Is* there a reason to NOT use self? If not, then self is redundant. If >> the reason to use self is to bypass name resolution order, then I would >> suggest making the less common case explicit and the more common one >> implicit. >> >> Since we're taIking about Objections, I find the statement "explicit is >> good", without a justification, to be Objectionable. The only truly >> explicit computer language is a circuit diagram. Even assembly language is >> implicit; anything with op codes is a transformation of an explicit routing >> of electrical charges to an implicit pattern that acts on an operand. Higher >> level languages build upon lower level ones by transforming explicit >> combinations into an implicit pattern. >> >> IMO, languages evolve by compressing complexity. Just as Morse Code >> compressed symbols tapped by hand over a wire, where the most common symbol >> "E" required a single tap. Python reduces complexity by removing the >> redundancy created by the often unnecessary enforcement of policy with typed >> variables and by removing the redundancy of using begin/end symbols (for the >> compiler) along with whitespace (for the human coders), when simply using >> whitespace would suffice. As a result, Python is a more concise by making >> coding policy implicit. However, Python is less concise when it enforces a >> policy about making name resolution order explicit. From a statistical >> viewpoint, this is akin to a Morse Code that assigning a single tap, not to >> the letter 'E', where it belongs, but to the letter 'Z'. >> >> While some people may see "self" as an issue of faith, others see it as a >> statistical anomaly (in an otherwise compact language). >> >> Cheers, >> >> \~/ >> _______________________________________________ >> Baypiggies mailing list >> Baypiggies at python.org >> To change your subscription options or unsubscribe: >> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies > > > -- It's a walled garden, but the flowers sure are lovely! http://jjinux.blogspot.com/ From warren at muse.com Mon Jun 23 16:41:26 2008 From: warren at muse.com (Warren Stringer) Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2008 07:41:26 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Frequently Argued Objections In-Reply-To: References: <1213899453.25521.73.camel@sbrown-dev2> <485D3C69.4020003@speakeasy.net> <57995952-CC00-4184-B974-47EFD9CE008A@muse.com> <85AFC048-AB0C-46DE-9036-24E2DD5BCB7E@muse.com> Message-ID: <4DC8EEF3-06C9-4759-9E9A-C2612A51102D@muse.com> Hey JJ, Kelly, I've combined both of your replies, On Jun 23, 2008, at 2:48 AM, Shannon -jj Behrens wrote: > Let's make it really fun: > > from thirdparty import * > > class A(B): > def bar(): # Assuming we have implicit self. > foo() > > Now, did foo come from: > > * The parent class B? > * Something in thirdparty? > * Something in thirdparty that someone else shoved in there > dynamically? > * Something in builtins that someone else shoved in there dynamically? > * Some global in the current module that's a few hundred lines down? > * Some global in the current module that someone else shoved in from > a third-party module? ;) > > Using self cuts down on the possibilities which: > > a) Saves the interpreter from doing a bunch of useless dict lookups. > b) Saves the reader from trying to figure out what's going on. OK, I'm sure that I'm missing something. Couldn't this be resolved with something like: 1) B.foo() 2) super.foo() # or ..foo() with dot_as_self convention expanded to emulate a file system 3) thirdparty.foo() 4) __builtins__.foo( Moreover, since we're talking about not using self for items that are local to the class, the example should really be: class A(B): def foo: ... # foo statements ... # other statements def bar(): foo() In this case, the resolving of 'foo' ranges from blindingly easy (when the distance from foo's declaration is short), to search-ably easy (when the distance from foo's declaration is long) On Jun 22, 2008, at 11:53 PM, Kelly Yancey wrote: > > I admit, I have had to call self by another name on a couple of > occasions. Specifically, I had a factory method in one class that > returned instances of a dynamically-created class. The returned > objects had methods that referenced both their own instance's > attributes and attributes of the factory method's parent object (via > closure). Since there were two objects involved, I used self to > refer to the factory-generated object itself, and had the factory > method use a different name for its own object reference argument so > the generated object could still access both. > Complicated? Sure. > Possible with implicit self? Nope As with other languages, 'self' can still be available; simply not required. On Jun 23, 2008, at 2:48 AM, Shannon -jj Behrens wrote: > As a blanket statement, polymorphism can be confusing. When I see > "self", at least it's a good sign that I should start looking at > either the class's documentation or one of its ancestor's > documentation. > > -jj These days, I do a search within the IDE, a spotlight search (Mac), or a Google Desktop search (PC). WIth several IDEs, I can right click to find the definitions. Some tools provide an accurate call graph. Many of these tools weren't available when Python was first created. Thirty- three years ago, most of my debugging involved reading code printouts from a KSR 35 teletype. Since then, my habits have changed. My guess is that: 1) 9 times out of 10 the var in self.var is blindingly obvious, 2) 99 times out of 100 it is obvious after a 10 second search, 3) when non-obvious, it may indicate an obscure namespace that a) has ballooned out to a complexity that should be refactored b) wouldn't be solved by simple code reading aides, like self \~/ From aahz at pythoncraft.com Mon Jun 23 16:59:04 2008 From: aahz at pythoncraft.com (Aahz) Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2008 07:59:04 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Frequently Argued Objections In-Reply-To: <4DC8EEF3-06C9-4759-9E9A-C2612A51102D@muse.com> References: <1213899453.25521.73.camel@sbrown-dev2> <485D3C69.4020003@speakeasy.net> <57995952-CC00-4184-B974-47EFD9CE008A@muse.com> <85AFC048-AB0C-46DE-9036-24E2DD5BCB7E@muse.com> <4DC8EEF3-06C9-4759-9E9A-C2612A51102D@muse.com> Message-ID: <20080623145904.GC13722@panix.com> On Mon, Jun 23, 2008, Warren Stringer wrote: > > As with other languages, 'self' can still be available; simply not > required. If you really want to debate this, I suggest subscribing to python-ideas (it's certainly on-topic for baypiggies, I just think you won't get much interest in discussing it after a while). -- Aahz (aahz at pythoncraft.com) <*> http://www.pythoncraft.com/ "as long as we like the same operating system, things are cool." --piranha From warren at muse.com Mon Jun 23 17:38:59 2008 From: warren at muse.com (Warren Stringer) Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2008 08:38:59 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Frequently Argued Objections In-Reply-To: <20080623145904.GC13722@panix.com> References: <1213899453.25521.73.camel@sbrown-dev2> <485D3C69.4020003@speakeasy.net> <57995952-CC00-4184-B974-47EFD9CE008A@muse.com> <85AFC048-AB0C-46DE-9036-24E2DD5BCB7E@muse.com> <4DC8EEF3-06C9-4759-9E9A-C2612A51102D@muse.com> <20080623145904.GC13722@panix.com> Message-ID: Nope. I don't expect anything to change. I suggested dot-as-self to Guido for P3K, but he said it was too late. That's fine. I appreciate continuity. However, in the context of a FAO, forcing self (along with implicit parameter passing) is probably the biggest objection. It was the most confusing thing to me, as a newbie and I've heard the same complaint from others. Ignoring the issue or suggesting that someone discuss it somewhere else isn't going to make that objection magically disappear. I have phrased the objection in the forum that the subject was brought up. Three people have replied constructively, including yourself. I have replied constructively. I find the suggestion (implicit or other ways, hah!) that I then stop my input in this forum and take it elsewhere to be less than constructive. So, I'll raise one more Objection. I will state unequivocally that Python is my favorite scripting language. I find a static structure in languages to be useful in making my code and other people's code more interchangeable. However, stating the value of a static structure in dogmatic terms, such as "we don't do it that way because that is not how it is done" will put some people off. Myself included. Anyway, it is Monday, and I have other things to do that tilt at windmills. Cheers, \~/ On Jun 23, 2008, at 7:59 AM, Aahz wrote: > On Mon, Jun 23, 2008, Warren Stringer wrote: >> >> As with other languages, 'self' can still be available; simply not >> required. > > If you really want to debate this, I suggest subscribing to python- > ideas > (it's certainly on-topic for baypiggies, I just think you won't get > much > interest in discussing it after a while). > -- > Aahz (aahz at pythoncraft.com) <*> http://www.pythoncraft.com/ > > "as long as we like the same operating system, things are cool." -- > piranha > _______________________________________________ > Baypiggies mailing list > Baypiggies at python.org > To change your subscription options or unsubscribe: > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies > From aleax at google.com Mon Jun 23 17:40:19 2008 From: aleax at google.com (Alex Martelli) Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2008 08:40:19 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Frequently Argued Objections In-Reply-To: <4DC8EEF3-06C9-4759-9E9A-C2612A51102D@muse.com> References: <1213899453.25521.73.camel@sbrown-dev2> <485D3C69.4020003@speakeasy.net> <57995952-CC00-4184-B974-47EFD9CE008A@muse.com> <85AFC048-AB0C-46DE-9036-24E2DD5BCB7E@muse.com> <4DC8EEF3-06C9-4759-9E9A-C2612A51102D@muse.com> Message-ID: <55dc209b0806230840l4c141346p395146e04079abde@mail.gmail.com> On Mon, Jun 23, 2008 at 7:41 AM, Warren Stringer wrote: ... > My guess is that: > 1) 9 times out of 10 the var in self.var is blindingly obvious, > 2) 99 times out of 100 it is obvious after a 10 second search, I think that there are way more than 1 in 100 uses even just for the simplest example that shows this guess to be unfounded: "self.var = x" which would allowed to become "var = x" under a deleterious "implicit self" rule. Right now, "var = x" sets a local variable in the method, "self.var = x" sets an instance variable: zero ambiguity, zero chances for error, zero problems -- well let's say epsilon problems rather than zero, because there IS the issue of having to listen to whines against "mandatory explicit self";-). There are good ways and bad ways to address this issue during language design. The best way -- as in Modula-3, Python, Perl-5, Ruby -- is to explicitly mark instance variables (self.var in Modula-3 and Python, $self->{var} in Perl-5, @self in Ruby); a somewhat inferior way -- as in Squeak -- is to give up some of the language's dynamic nature by forcing variables to be declared; a worse way would be to break symmetry by using the explicit mark in assignment but not in reference. The very worst way is shown by Javascript's "with" statement -- within a Javascript "with zap", the meaning of "zop = 23" is essentially unguessable as it depends on whether zap already did have a zop attribute (in which case it rebinds it) or not (in which case it binds a global variable -- unless there was an earlier declaration of "var zop" in this function, in which case it binds the local variable instead) -- a mix of forced declaration and blind guessing that good books on Javascript (e.g. the short and useful "Javascript, the good parts") strive to convince the reader to never, ever use that accursed statement. Within the "explicit mark" camp, Ruby's "@var" is typographically concise but conceptually bends Occam's razor -- it makes the language introduce one more rule (on the meaning of a "@" prefix) where the choice that Python took from Modula-3 just reuses an existing rule (whatever.var means exactly the same in all cases, whether "whatever" is "self" or something other than "self" -- no special cases, no extra rules). Alex From warren at muse.com Mon Jun 23 18:12:56 2008 From: warren at muse.com (Warren Stringer) Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2008 09:12:56 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Frequently Argued Objections In-Reply-To: <55dc209b0806230840l4c141346p395146e04079abde@mail.gmail.com> References: <1213899453.25521.73.camel@sbrown-dev2> <485D3C69.4020003@speakeasy.net> <57995952-CC00-4184-B974-47EFD9CE008A@muse.com> <85AFC048-AB0C-46DE-9036-24E2DD5BCB7E@muse.com> <4DC8EEF3-06C9-4759-9E9A-C2612A51102D@muse.com> <55dc209b0806230840l4c141346p395146e04079abde@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <0F24203D-8774-43CF-A3FD-5E3B1F4A493A@muse.com> This is what I was hoping for (except for offhand comment about a whining, though I'll attribute that to Alex's inimitable charm ;-) as it put's Objections in context of other languages. Unfortunately, I have people awaiting some code, so, due to time constraints, I must defer and (implicitly) demure. Am looking forward to rereading this comment in the near future. \~/ On Jun 23, 2008, at 8:40 AM, Alex Martelli wrote: > On Mon, Jun 23, 2008 at 7:41 AM, Warren Stringer > wrote: > ... >> My guess is that: >> 1) 9 times out of 10 the var in self.var is blindingly >> obvious, >> 2) 99 times out of 100 it is obvious after a 10 second search, > > I think that there are way more than 1 in 100 uses even just for the > simplest example that shows this guess to be unfounded: "self.var = x" > which would allowed to become "var = x" under a deleterious "implicit > self" rule. > > Right now, "var = x" sets a local variable in the method, "self.var = > x" sets an instance variable: zero ambiguity, zero chances for error, > zero problems -- well let's say epsilon problems rather than zero, > because there IS the issue of having to listen to whines against > "mandatory explicit self";-). > > There are good ways and bad ways to address this issue during language > design. The best way -- as in Modula-3, Python, Perl-5, Ruby -- is to > explicitly mark instance variables (self.var in Modula-3 and Python, > $self->{var} in Perl-5, @self in Ruby); a somewhat inferior way -- as > in Squeak -- is to give up some of the language's dynamic nature by > forcing variables to be declared; a worse way would be to break > symmetry by using the explicit mark in assignment but not in > reference. > > The very worst way is shown by Javascript's "with" statement -- within > a Javascript "with zap", the meaning of "zop = 23" is essentially > unguessable as it depends on whether zap already did have a zop > attribute (in which case it rebinds it) or not (in which case it binds > a global variable -- unless there was an earlier declaration of "var > zop" in this function, in which case it binds the local variable > instead) -- a mix of forced declaration and blind guessing that good > books on Javascript (e.g. the short and useful "Javascript, the good > parts") strive to convince the reader to never, ever use that accursed > statement. > > Within the "explicit mark" camp, Ruby's "@var" is typographically > concise but conceptually bends Occam's razor -- it makes the language > introduce one more rule (on the meaning of a "@" prefix) where the > choice that Python took from Modula-3 just reuses an existing rule > (whatever.var means exactly the same in all cases, whether "whatever" > is "self" or something other than "self" -- no special cases, no extra > rules). > > > Alex > From andrew at atoulou.se Mon Jun 23 18:23:38 2008 From: andrew at atoulou.se (Andrew Toulouse) Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2008 09:23:38 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Frequently Argued Objections In-Reply-To: <55dc209b0806230840l4c141346p395146e04079abde@mail.gmail.com> References: <1213899453.25521.73.camel@sbrown-dev2> <485D3C69.4020003@speakeasy.net> <57995952-CC00-4184-B974-47EFD9CE008A@muse.com> <85AFC048-AB0C-46DE-9036-24E2DD5BCB7E@muse.com> <4DC8EEF3-06C9-4759-9E9A-C2612A51102D@muse.com> <55dc209b0806230840l4c141346p395146e04079abde@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: This is why I would not like dot-as-self -- it would eliminate some amount of clarity for new Python programmers. I'm somewhat embarrassed that when I took a Ruby on Rails class (the first semester it was offered), I managed to get by *not* knowing what @ did, since it wasn't immediately obvious. Having an implicit 'this' or 'self' would have helped, but best of all (IMO) was discovering Python and the explicit self - I no longer had to confuse myself! Sure, it's not difficult to discover what the code means without the explicit self, but it's not as straightforward (to me). I've programmed in Java and C++ sometimes, but I don't have the years of experience with them that makes the implicit self/this second nature. Python's all about the clarity (IMO) -- I've yet to find another language where comprehension is as unhindered by syntax as in Python. --Andy On Mon, Jun 23, 2008 at 8:40 AM, Alex Martelli wrote: [[[snip]] > Within the "explicit mark" camp, Ruby's "@var" is typographically > concise but conceptually bends Occam's razor -- it makes the language > introduce one more rule (on the meaning of a "@" prefix) where the > choice that Python took from Modula-3 just reuses an existing rule > (whatever.var means exactly the same in all cases, whether "whatever" > is "self" or something other than "self" -- no special cases, no extra > rules). > > > Alex > _______________________________________________ > Baypiggies mailing list > Baypiggies at python.org > To change your subscription options or unsubscribe: > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From afife at untangle.com Mon Jun 23 20:10:27 2008 From: afife at untangle.com (Andrew Fife) Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2008 11:10:27 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Baypiggies] Andrew Morton (Tomorrow) Message-ID: <004d01c8d55c$6c67ab20$8a00000a@afmeatloaf> Howdy Folks: This is a reminder that Andrew Morton (key Linux Kernel maintainer) is speaking at BALUG tomorrow, June 24th. If you plan on coming PRETTY PLEASE rsvp now so that I can give the restraunt and idea of how much food to prepare. We won't turn anyone away, but the RSVPs are really helpful. RSVP at balug.org Meeting Details... 6:30pm June 24th, 2008 (Tomorrow) Four Seas Restaurant 731 Grant Ave. San Francisco, CA 94108 Easy $5 Parking: http://www.portsmouthsquaregarage.com/ Cost = $13 for dinner, but the meeting itself is free Upcoming 2008 speakers include: July - Mike Linksyaver (Creative Commons) Aug - Chris Dibona (Google) Sept - Ian Murdock (Debian & Sun) -- Andrew Fife Untangle - The Open Source Network Gateway www.untangle.com/download 650.425.3327 desk 415.806.6028 cell -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From andrew at atoulou.se Mon Jun 23 20:35:21 2008 From: andrew at atoulou.se (Andrew Toulouse) Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2008 11:35:21 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Andrew Morton (Tomorrow) In-Reply-To: <004d01c8d55c$6c67ab20$8a00000a@afmeatloaf> References: <004d01c8d55c$6c67ab20$8a00000a@afmeatloaf> Message-ID: Sent this to the wrong email. Sorry. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From andrew at atoulou.se Mon Jun 23 20:35:42 2008 From: andrew at atoulou.se (Andrew Toulouse) Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2008 11:35:42 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Andrew Morton (Tomorrow) In-Reply-To: References: <004d01c8d55c$6c67ab20$8a00000a@afmeatloaf> Message-ID: Or not. Disregard that last message. I forwarded it and thought I'd replied. On Mon, Jun 23, 2008 at 11:35 AM, Andrew Toulouse wrote: > Sent this to the wrong email. Sorry. > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From warren at muse.com Tue Jun 24 01:35:31 2008 From: warren at muse.com (Warren Stringer) Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2008 16:35:31 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Frequently Argued Objections In-Reply-To: <55dc209b0806230840l4c141346p395146e04079abde@mail.gmail.com> References: <1213899453.25521.73.camel@sbrown-dev2> <485D3C69.4020003@speakeasy.net> <57995952-CC00-4184-B974-47EFD9CE008A@muse.com> <85AFC048-AB0C-46DE-9036-24E2DD5BCB7E@muse.com> <4DC8EEF3-06C9-4759-9E9A-C2612A51102D@muse.com> <55dc209b0806230840l4c141346p395146e04079abde@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <0A2D2D17-4102-4BF5-B71E-30B25EE6672D@muse.com> Ok, so "var=x" instantiates a static var x, yes? For example: class a(object): b=1 # self.b does not work here def __init__(self): self.b=2 # so declare it in the constructor def f(self): b=3 print a.b, self.b, b b=b+1 i=a() i.f() # => prints 1 2 3 a.b=4 i.f() # => prints 4 2 3 j=a() j.f() # => prints 4 2 3 a.b=5 # will change for i and j i.f() # => prints 5 2 3 j.f() # => prints 5 2 3 i.b=6 #changes self.b i.f() # => prints 5 6 3 j.f() # = prints 2 6 3 So, the ambiguity is that whatever=a() will instantiate b=1 once, whereas whatever.f() will instantiate b=3 always Must keep track that a.b behaves differently from i.b, since i.b=6 implicitly passes self, somewhat akin to i.self.b, tho not quite (how would one express as internal dictionaries?) As stated about @var, in Ruby: "but conceptually bends Occam's razor -- it makes the language introduce one more rule" One may make the case that examples for b=1, b=3, a.b=5, i.b=6 also introduce more rules. This is what confused me the most, when learning Python. I have heard similar objections. I have seen plenty of questions posted about this problem and have seen many replies posted that essentially say "oh no, not THAT question again." There are several methods of dealing with objections: 1) ignore it by calling it whining a) and hope the whiners go away 2) acknowledge the problem a) show how it solves a bigger problem b) show how a fix would create new problems 3) eliminate the source of the problem a) without creating new problems Guess which methods increase the popularity/longevity of a product? Since 3) is not going to happen for self, I would suggest 2) over 1). \~/ On Jun 23, 2008, at 8:40 AM, Alex Martelli wrote: > On Mon, Jun 23, 2008 at 7:41 AM, Warren Stringer > wrote: > ... >> My guess is that: >> 1) 9 times out of 10 the var in self.var is blindingly >> obvious, >> 2) 99 times out of 100 it is obvious after a 10 second search, > > I think that there are way more than 1 in 100 uses even just for the > simplest example that shows this guess to be unfounded: "self.var = x" > which would allowed to become "var = x" under a deleterious "implicit > self" rule. > > Right now, "var = x" sets a local variable in the method, "self.var = > x" sets an instance variable: zero ambiguity, zero chances for error, > zero problems -- well let's say epsilon problems rather than zero, > because there IS the issue of having to listen to whines against > "mandatory explicit self";-). > > There are good ways and bad ways to address this issue during language > design. The best way -- as in Modula-3, Python, Perl-5, Ruby -- is to > explicitly mark instance variables (self.var in Modula-3 and Python, > $self->{var} in Perl-5, @self in Ruby); a somewhat inferior way -- as > in Squeak -- is to give up some of the language's dynamic nature by > forcing variables to be declared; a worse way would be to break > symmetry by using the explicit mark in assignment but not in > reference. > > The very worst way is shown by Javascript's "with" statement -- within > a Javascript "with zap", the meaning of "zop = 23" is essentially > unguessable as it depends on whether zap already did have a zop > attribute (in which case it rebinds it) or not (in which case it binds > a global variable -- unless there was an earlier declaration of "var > zop" in this function, in which case it binds the local variable > instead) -- a mix of forced declaration and blind guessing that good > books on Javascript (e.g. the short and useful "Javascript, the good > parts") strive to convince the reader to never, ever use that accursed > statement. > > Within the "explicit mark" camp, Ruby's "@var" is typographically > concise but conceptually bends Occam's razor -- it makes the language > introduce one more rule (on the meaning of a "@" prefix) where the > choice that Python took from Modula-3 just reuses an existing rule > (whatever.var means exactly the same in all cases, whether "whatever" > is "self" or something other than "self" -- no special cases, no extra > rules). > > > Alex > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From guido at python.org Tue Jun 24 04:05:45 2008 From: guido at python.org (Guido van Rossum) Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2008 19:05:45 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Frequently Argued Objections In-Reply-To: <0A2D2D17-4102-4BF5-B71E-30B25EE6672D@muse.com> References: <1213899453.25521.73.camel@sbrown-dev2> <57995952-CC00-4184-B974-47EFD9CE008A@muse.com> <85AFC048-AB0C-46DE-9036-24E2DD5BCB7E@muse.com> <4DC8EEF3-06C9-4759-9E9A-C2612A51102D@muse.com> <55dc209b0806230840l4c141346p395146e04079abde@mail.gmail.com> <0A2D2D17-4102-4BF5-B71E-30B25EE6672D@muse.com> Message-ID: You're getting real popular any time now... On Mon, Jun 23, 2008 at 4:35 PM, Warren Stringer wrote: > Ok, so "var=x" instantiates a static var x, yes? For example: > class a(object): > b=1 > # self.b does not work here > def __init__(self): > self.b=2 # so declare it in the constructor > def f(self): > b=3 > print a.b, self.b, b > b=b+1 > i=a() > i.f() # => prints 1 2 3 > a.b=4 > i.f() # => prints 4 2 3 > j=a() > j.f() # => prints 4 2 3 > a.b=5 # will change for i and j > i.f() # => prints 5 2 3 > j.f() # => prints 5 2 3 > i.b=6 #changes self.b > i.f() # => prints 5 6 3 > j.f() # = prints 2 6 3 > > > > So, the ambiguity is that > > whatever=a() will instantiate b=1 once, whereas > > whatever.f() will instantiate b=3 always > > > Must keep track that > a.b behaves differently from i.b, since > i.b=6 implicitly passes self, > somewhat akin to i.self.b, tho not quite > (how would one express as internal dictionaries?) > As stated about @var, in Ruby: "but conceptually bends Occam's razor -- it > makes the language introduce one more rule" > One may make the case that examples for b=1, b=3, a.b=5, i.b=6 also > introduce more rules. > This is what confused me the most, when learning Python. I have heard > similar objections. I have seen plenty of questions posted about this > problem and have seen many replies posted that essentially say "oh no, not > THAT question again." > There are several methods of dealing with objections: > 1) ignore it by calling it whining > a) and hope the whiners go away > 2) acknowledge the problem > a) show how it solves a bigger problem > b) show how a fix would create new problems > 3) eliminate the source of the problem > a) without creating new problems > > Guess which methods increase the popularity/longevity of a product? Since 3) > is not going to happen for self, I would suggest 2) over 1). > \~/ > On Jun 23, 2008, at 8:40 AM, Alex Martelli wrote: > > On Mon, Jun 23, 2008 at 7:41 AM, Warren Stringer wrote: > ... > > My guess is that: > > 1) 9 times out of 10 the var in self.var is blindingly obvious, > > 2) 99 times out of 100 it is obvious after a 10 second search, > > I think that there are way more than 1 in 100 uses even just for the > simplest example that shows this guess to be unfounded: "self.var = x" > which would allowed to become "var = x" under a deleterious "implicit > self" rule. > > Right now, "var = x" sets a local variable in the method, "self.var = > x" sets an instance variable: zero ambiguity, zero chances for error, > zero problems -- well let's say epsilon problems rather than zero, > because there IS the issue of having to listen to whines against > "mandatory explicit self";-). > > There are good ways and bad ways to address this issue during language > design. The best way -- as in Modula-3, Python, Perl-5, Ruby -- is to > explicitly mark instance variables (self.var in Modula-3 and Python, > $self->{var} in Perl-5, @self in Ruby); a somewhat inferior way -- as > in Squeak -- is to give up some of the language's dynamic nature by > forcing variables to be declared; a worse way would be to break > symmetry by using the explicit mark in assignment but not in > reference. > > The very worst way is shown by Javascript's "with" statement -- within > a Javascript "with zap", the meaning of "zop = 23" is essentially > unguessable as it depends on whether zap already did have a zop > attribute (in which case it rebinds it) or not (in which case it binds > a global variable -- unless there was an earlier declaration of "var > zop" in this function, in which case it binds the local variable > instead) -- a mix of forced declaration and blind guessing that good > books on Javascript (e.g. the short and useful "Javascript, the good > parts") strive to convince the reader to never, ever use that accursed > statement. > > Within the "explicit mark" camp, Ruby's "@var" is typographically > concise but conceptually bends Occam's razor -- it makes the language > introduce one more rule (on the meaning of a "@" prefix) where the > choice that Python took from Modula-3 just reuses an existing rule > (whatever.var means exactly the same in all cases, whether "whatever" > is "self" or something other than "self" -- no special cases, no extra > rules). > > > Alex > > > > _______________________________________________ > Baypiggies mailing list > Baypiggies at python.org > To change your subscription options or unsubscribe: > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies > -- --Guido van Rossum (home page: http://www.python.org/~guido/) From shalabh at cafepy.com Tue Jun 24 04:34:47 2008 From: shalabh at cafepy.com (Shalabh Chaturvedi) Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2008 19:34:47 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Frequently Argued Objections In-Reply-To: <2b388010806231931k545b0ae3n2d793c6f1065aae8@mail.gmail.com> References: <1213899453.25521.73.camel@sbrown-dev2> <85AFC048-AB0C-46DE-9036-24E2DD5BCB7E@muse.com> <4DC8EEF3-06C9-4759-9E9A-C2612A51102D@muse.com> <55dc209b0806230840l4c141346p395146e04079abde@mail.gmail.com> <0A2D2D17-4102-4BF5-B71E-30B25EE6672D@muse.com> <2b388010806231931k545b0ae3n2d793c6f1065aae8@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <2b388010806231934q373109ddq886e5e746035f26c@mail.gmail.com> Resending - 1st attempt failed. On Mon, Jun 23, 2008 at 7:31 PM, Shalabh Chaturvedi wrote: > I don't see what ambiguity you are trying to point out. Python has a > concept of names and objects. Also, objects have attributes that point to > other objects. I think you are missing some simple but core concepts. See > inline... > > On Mon, Jun 23, 2008 at 4:35 PM, Warren Stringer wrote: > >> Ok, so "var=x" instantiates a static var x, yes? For example: >> > > No, it does not instantiate anything - it just gives an object currently > having name 'x', a new name 'var', in the current namespace. Instantiation > is when you create an object. No new object is created by the above line. > > >> class a(object): >> b=1 >> # self.b does not work here >> def __init__(self): >> self.b=2 # so declare it in the constructor >> def f(self): >> b=3 >> print a.b, self.b, b >> b=b+1 >> > > Right now you have an object called 'a', it is a class with an attribute > 'b' (the value of a.b is already 1). You can check it at this point by > printing a.b > > >> >> i=a() >> > > Now you have created another object 'i' which is an instance of the > original 'a' (i.__class__ is a). The new object 'i' also has an attribute > 'b' - value of i.b is 2 because you set it in __init__. i.b is not the same > as a.b - 'i' and 'a' are two different objects, each with an attribute > called 'b'. The self inside __init__ was just another temporary name for the > object now knows as 'i'. Same object, two names. Self is a local name - that > name no longer exists once you exit __init__(). > > i.f() # => prints 1 2 3 >> > > You're printing a.b, i.b and the local 'b' that only exists within f(). > > >> a.b=4 >> i.f() # => prints 4 2 3 >> j=a() >> > > Now you have created another object 'j' different from 'i', but similar > because j.__class__ is also 'a'. > > >> j.f() # => prints 4 2 3 >> a.b=5 # will change for i and j >> i.f() # => prints 5 2 3 >> j.f() # => prints 5 2 3 >> i.b=6 #changes self.b >> i.f() # => prints 5 6 3 >> j.f() # = prints 2 6 3 >> > > Doesn't this above line print 5 2 3? > > So, the ambiguity is that >> >> whatever=a() will instantiate b=1 once, whereas >> > > No whatever=a() doesn't 'instantiate' b=1 at all. a.b=1 is already set > before you execute this line. And i.b=2 is set within the __init__() > function (within that function the new object has a different name - self). > > whatever.f() will instantiate b=3 always >> > > f() contains a local variable 'b', this has nothing at all to do with > either the instance (i or j) or the class (a). Except that f() happens to be > a method in class a. > > >> Must keep track that >> a.b behaves differently from i.b, since >> i.b=6 implicitly passes self, >> > > It doesn't implicitly pass anything. It just sets the attribute 'b' of > object 'i' to 6. When you call i.f() - that implicitly passes i as the first > argument - it is equivalent to calling f(i) - or rather a.f(i). > > >> somewhat akin to i.self.b, tho not quite >> (how would one express as internal dictionaries?) >> > > There is no i.self. But self is sometimes a function local name for i, at > other times it's a function local name for j. Same object, different names > in different places. > > >> As stated about @var, in Ruby: "but conceptually bends Occam's razor -- >> it makes the language introduce one more rule" >> One may make the case that examples for b=1, b=3, a.b=5, i.b=6 also >> introduce more rules. >> >> This is what confused me the most, when learning Python. I have heard >> similar objections. I have seen plenty of questions posted about this >> problem and have seen many replies posted that essentially say "oh no, not >> THAT question again." >> >> There are several methods of dealing with objections: >> 1) ignore it by calling it whining >> a) and hope the whiners go away >> 2) acknowledge the problem >> a) show how it solves a bigger problem >> b) show how a fix would create new problems >> 3) eliminate the source of the problem >> a) without creating new problems >> >> Guess which methods increase the popularity/longevity of a product? Since >> 3) is not going to happen for self, I would suggest 2) over 1). >> >> \~/ >> >> On Jun 23, 2008, at 8:40 AM, Alex Martelli wrote: >> >> On Mon, Jun 23, 2008 at 7:41 AM, Warren Stringer wrote: >> ... >> >> My guess is that: >> >> 1) 9 times out of 10 the var in self.var is blindingly obvious, >> >> 2) 99 times out of 100 it is obvious after a 10 second search, >> >> >> I think that there are way more than 1 in 100 uses even just for the >> simplest example that shows this guess to be unfounded: "self.var = x" >> which would allowed to become "var = x" under a deleterious "implicit >> self" rule. >> >> Right now, "var = x" sets a local variable in the method, "self.var = >> x" sets an instance variable: zero ambiguity, zero chances for error, >> zero problems -- well let's say epsilon problems rather than zero, >> because there IS the issue of having to listen to whines against >> "mandatory explicit self";-). >> >> There are good ways and bad ways to address this issue during language >> design. The best way -- as in Modula-3, Python, Perl-5, Ruby -- is to >> explicitly mark instance variables (self.var in Modula-3 and Python, >> $self->{var} in Perl-5, @self in Ruby); a somewhat inferior way -- as >> in Squeak -- is to give up some of the language's dynamic nature by >> forcing variables to be declared; a worse way would be to break >> symmetry by using the explicit mark in assignment but not in >> reference. >> >> The very worst way is shown by Javascript's "with" statement -- within >> a Javascript "with zap", the meaning of "zop = 23" is essentially >> unguessable as it depends on whether zap already did have a zop >> attribute (in which case it rebinds it) or not (in which case it binds >> a global variable -- unless there was an earlier declaration of "var >> zop" in this function, in which case it binds the local variable >> instead) -- a mix of forced declaration and blind guessing that good >> books on Javascript (e.g. the short and useful "Javascript, the good >> parts") strive to convince the reader to never, ever use that accursed >> statement. >> >> Within the "explicit mark" camp, Ruby's "@var" is typographically >> concise but conceptually bends Occam's razor -- it makes the language >> introduce one more rule (on the meaning of a "@" prefix) where the >> choice that Python took from Modula-3 just reuses an existing rule >> (whatever.var means exactly the same in all cases, whether "whatever" >> is "self" or something other than "self" -- no special cases, no extra >> rules). >> >> >> Alex >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Baypiggies mailing list >> Baypiggies at python.org >> To change your subscription options or unsubscribe: >> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies >> > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kelly at nttmcl.com Tue Jun 24 09:04:07 2008 From: kelly at nttmcl.com (Kelly Yancey) Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 16:04:07 +0900 Subject: [Baypiggies] Frequently Argued Objections In-Reply-To: <4DC8EEF3-06C9-4759-9E9A-C2612A51102D@muse.com> References: <1213899453.25521.73.camel@sbrown-dev2> <485D3C69.4020003@speakeasy.net> <57995952-CC00-4184-B974-47EFD9CE008A@muse.com> <85AFC048-AB0C-46DE-9036-24E2DD5BCB7E@muse.com> <4DC8EEF3-06C9-4759-9E9A-C2612A51102D@muse.com> Message-ID: <48609C67.7090704@nttmcl.com> Warren Stringer wrote: > Hey JJ, Kelly, I've combined both of your replies, > > On Jun 23, 2008, at 2:48 AM, Shannon -jj Behrens wrote: > >> Let's make it really fun: >> >> from thirdparty import * >> >> class A(B): >> def bar(): # Assuming we have implicit self. >> foo() >> >> Now, did foo come from: >> >> * The parent class B? >> * Something in thirdparty? >> * Something in thirdparty that someone else shoved in there dynamically? >> * Something in builtins that someone else shoved in there dynamically? >> * Some global in the current module that's a few hundred lines down? >> * Some global in the current module that someone else shoved in from >> a third-party module? ;) >> >> Using self cuts down on the possibilities which: >> >> a) Saves the interpreter from doing a bunch of useless dict lookups. >> b) Saves the reader from trying to figure out what's going on. > > OK, I'm sure that I'm missing something. Couldn't this be resolved with > something like: > > 1) B.foo() > 2) super.foo() # or ..foo() with dot_as_self convention expanded to > emulate a file system Give me back my polymorphism! > 3) thirdparty.foo() So we're removing the "from thirdparty import foo" syntax in order to solve the ambiguity? > 4) __builtins__.foo( > My eyes, they burn. > Moreover, since we're talking about not using self for items that are > local to the class, the example should really be: > > class A(B): > def foo: > ... # foo statements > ... # other statements > def bar(): > foo() > > In this case, the resolving of 'foo' ranges from blindingly easy (when > the distance from foo's declaration is short), to search-ably easy (when > the distance from foo's declaration is long) > OOP without polymorphism OR inheritance? I don't want to live in your world. :) Kelly -- http://kbyanc.blogspot.com/ > On Jun 22, 2008, at 11:53 PM, Kelly Yancey wrote: >> >> I admit, I have had to call self by another name on a couple of >> occasions. Specifically, I had a factory method in one class that >> returned instances of a dynamically-created class. The returned >> objects had methods that referenced both their own instance's >> attributes and attributes of the factory method's parent object (via >> closure). Since there were two objects involved, I used self to refer >> to the factory-generated object itself, and had the factory method use >> a different name for its own object reference argument so the >> generated object could still access both. >> Complicated? Sure. >> Possible with implicit self? Nope > > > As with other languages, 'self' can still be available; simply not > required. > > On Jun 23, 2008, at 2:48 AM, Shannon -jj Behrens wrote: >> As a blanket statement, polymorphism can be confusing. When I see >> "self", at least it's a good sign that I should start looking at >> either the class's documentation or one of its ancestor's >> documentation. >> >> -jj > > These days, I do a search within the IDE, a spotlight search (Mac), or a > Google Desktop search (PC). WIth several IDEs, I can right click to find > the definitions. Some tools provide an accurate call graph. Many of > these tools weren't available when Python was first created. > Thirty-three years ago, most of my debugging involved reading code > printouts from a KSR 35 teletype. Since then, my habits have changed. > > My guess is that: > 1) 9 times out of 10 the var in self.var is blindingly obvious, > 2) 99 times out of 100 it is obvious after a 10 second search, > 3) when non-obvious, it may indicate an obscure namespace that > a) has ballooned out to a complexity that should be refactored > b) wouldn't be solved by simple code reading aides, like self > > \~/ > > > From chad.netzer at gmail.com Tue Jun 24 09:06:06 2008 From: chad.netzer at gmail.com (Chad Netzer) Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 00:06:06 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Frequently Argued Objections In-Reply-To: <0A2D2D17-4102-4BF5-B71E-30B25EE6672D@muse.com> References: <1213899453.25521.73.camel@sbrown-dev2> <57995952-CC00-4184-B974-47EFD9CE008A@muse.com> <85AFC048-AB0C-46DE-9036-24E2DD5BCB7E@muse.com> <4DC8EEF3-06C9-4759-9E9A-C2612A51102D@muse.com> <55dc209b0806230840l4c141346p395146e04079abde@mail.gmail.com> <0A2D2D17-4102-4BF5-B71E-30B25EE6672D@muse.com> Message-ID: On 6/23/08, Warren Stringer wrote: > Ok, so "var=x" instantiates a static var x, yes? For example: Hmmm, best to put aside some of these concepts (static vars and contructors) when thinking Pythonically; if you will indulge me: $ python Python 2.5 (r25:51918, Sep 19 2006, 08:49:13) >>> one = uno = 1 >>> one 1 >>> uno 1 >>> 1 1 I just created two new ways to refer to the integer 1 object. No copying of the 1 object occurred, just some manipulation (at runtime) of the name table for the current scope, and some changed reference counts. (use locals() and globals() after the example above, to see) As a sidenote, the 1 integer is a singleton; you can't, for example, create another '1' valued integer with 1(). But as an instance of type int, it has its own state (the value 1) and an interface allowing it to be added to other integers, etc. > class a(object): > b=1 > # self.b does not work here > def __init__(self): > self.b=2 # so declare it in the constructor Try not to think of __init__() as a constructor (it isn't). It is an initializer. :) I'll skip the explanation for now, but feel free to ask. Why does it matter? Well, Python doesn't have a "copy constructor", for example, so that terminology can lead to some confusion. In fact, Python gained the __new__() method a while back, which is kinda-sorta more like a constructor; it allows making immutable objects, for example. But __init__() is really much simpler than, e.g. a C++ constructor. Now, why the explicit self? Well, because if it were implicit, due to Python's dynamic nature, everything would run a lot slower (if it were even doable). C++ has somewhat complicated rules to figure out just what method or attribute is meant when it encounters a name in a method call. You can use an explicit this-> to help resolve ambiguities. But, in any case, that language figures it all out at compile time. But in Python, name lookups happen at runtime. It is quite possible for an object to not have a particular attribute at all until the first time someone reads it; it could be computed each time it is accessed, or it could involve a round trip over a network to get the attribute value. With an implicit self, an unqualified name in a method call would have to probe the object for this name, thus possibly triggering the action accidentally (what if you really meant the global name? You weren't explicit after all, so Python has to look). Or, the lookup rules would have to exclude this type of lookup, and you would again need an explicit self in this case. Either way, it is faster and easier to just require self. The lookup doesn't then depend on the dynamic nature of the language. Now, if its a matter of typing, many programming editors have all kinds of fancy features to help you type 'self' a lot less often. I can do it in Vim with abbrevations (emacs too). TextMate on Macs really seems to take it to the limit; see the Python video below if you are curious: http://macromates.com/screencasts Other IDEs and editors have similar features; just like whitespace indentation, the explicit self, once you get used to it, doesn't seem to be a big dealbreaker, IMO. Hope this was somewhat enlightening; if was unclear, just ask. Chad From jjinux at gmail.com Tue Jun 24 14:03:15 2008 From: jjinux at gmail.com (Shannon -jj Behrens) Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 05:03:15 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Frequently Argued Objections In-Reply-To: <0A2D2D17-4102-4BF5-B71E-30B25EE6672D@muse.com> References: <1213899453.25521.73.camel@sbrown-dev2> <57995952-CC00-4184-B974-47EFD9CE008A@muse.com> <85AFC048-AB0C-46DE-9036-24E2DD5BCB7E@muse.com> <4DC8EEF3-06C9-4759-9E9A-C2612A51102D@muse.com> <55dc209b0806230840l4c141346p395146e04079abde@mail.gmail.com> <0A2D2D17-4102-4BF5-B71E-30B25EE6672D@muse.com> Message-ID: Your post did bring up one thing I do like about Ruby. It has a more defined notion of class scope at class definition time. If Python had that, I could do something like: class B(A): ... if hasattr(B, 'foo'): ... That's not possible now, because B doesn't exist until the class is finished being defined. There are workarounds. It's not a big deal. I'm just saying ;) -jj On Mon, Jun 23, 2008 at 4:35 PM, Warren Stringer wrote: > Ok, so "var=x" instantiates a static var x, yes? For example: > class a(object): > b=1 > # self.b does not work here > def __init__(self): > self.b=2 # so declare it in the constructor > def f(self): > b=3 > print a.b, self.b, b > b=b+1 > i=a() > i.f() # => prints 1 2 3 > a.b=4 > i.f() # => prints 4 2 3 > j=a() > j.f() # => prints 4 2 3 > a.b=5 # will change for i and j > i.f() # => prints 5 2 3 > j.f() # => prints 5 2 3 > i.b=6 #changes self.b > i.f() # => prints 5 6 3 > j.f() # = prints 2 6 3 > > > > So, the ambiguity is that > > whatever=a() will instantiate b=1 once, whereas > > whatever.f() will instantiate b=3 always > > > Must keep track that > a.b behaves differently from i.b, since > i.b=6 implicitly passes self, > somewhat akin to i.self.b, tho not quite > (how would one express as internal dictionaries?) > As stated about @var, in Ruby: "but conceptually bends Occam's razor -- it > makes the language introduce one more rule" > One may make the case that examples for b=1, b=3, a.b=5, i.b=6 also > introduce more rules. > This is what confused me the most, when learning Python. I have heard > similar objections. I have seen plenty of questions posted about this > problem and have seen many replies posted that essentially say "oh no, not > THAT question again." > There are several methods of dealing with objections: > 1) ignore it by calling it whining > a) and hope the whiners go away > 2) acknowledge the problem > a) show how it solves a bigger problem > b) show how a fix would create new problems > 3) eliminate the source of the problem > a) without creating new problems > > Guess which methods increase the popularity/longevity of a product? Since 3) > is not going to happen for self, I would suggest 2) over 1). > \~/ > On Jun 23, 2008, at 8:40 AM, Alex Martelli wrote: > > On Mon, Jun 23, 2008 at 7:41 AM, Warren Stringer wrote: > ... > > My guess is that: > > 1) 9 times out of 10 the var in self.var is blindingly obvious, > > 2) 99 times out of 100 it is obvious after a 10 second search, > > I think that there are way more than 1 in 100 uses even just for the > simplest example that shows this guess to be unfounded: "self.var = x" > which would allowed to become "var = x" under a deleterious "implicit > self" rule. > > Right now, "var = x" sets a local variable in the method, "self.var = > x" sets an instance variable: zero ambiguity, zero chances for error, > zero problems -- well let's say epsilon problems rather than zero, > because there IS the issue of having to listen to whines against > "mandatory explicit self";-). > > There are good ways and bad ways to address this issue during language > design. The best way -- as in Modula-3, Python, Perl-5, Ruby -- is to > explicitly mark instance variables (self.var in Modula-3 and Python, > $self->{var} in Perl-5, @self in Ruby); a somewhat inferior way -- as > in Squeak -- is to give up some of the language's dynamic nature by > forcing variables to be declared; a worse way would be to break > symmetry by using the explicit mark in assignment but not in > reference. > > The very worst way is shown by Javascript's "with" statement -- within > a Javascript "with zap", the meaning of "zop = 23" is essentially > unguessable as it depends on whether zap already did have a zop > attribute (in which case it rebinds it) or not (in which case it binds > a global variable -- unless there was an earlier declaration of "var > zop" in this function, in which case it binds the local variable > instead) -- a mix of forced declaration and blind guessing that good > books on Javascript (e.g. the short and useful "Javascript, the good > parts") strive to convince the reader to never, ever use that accursed > statement. > > Within the "explicit mark" camp, Ruby's "@var" is typographically > concise but conceptually bends Occam's razor -- it makes the language > introduce one more rule (on the meaning of a "@" prefix) where the > choice that Python took from Modula-3 just reuses an existing rule > (whatever.var means exactly the same in all cases, whether "whatever" > is "self" or something other than "self" -- no special cases, no extra > rules). > > > Alex > > > -- It's a walled garden, but the flowers sure are lovely! http://jjinux.blogspot.com/ From jjinux at gmail.com Tue Jun 24 14:12:18 2008 From: jjinux at gmail.com (Shannon -jj Behrens) Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 05:12:18 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Frequently Argued Objections In-Reply-To: References: <1213899453.25521.73.camel@sbrown-dev2> <85AFC048-AB0C-46DE-9036-24E2DD5BCB7E@muse.com> <4DC8EEF3-06C9-4759-9E9A-C2612A51102D@muse.com> <55dc209b0806230840l4c141346p395146e04079abde@mail.gmail.com> <0A2D2D17-4102-4BF5-B71E-30B25EE6672D@muse.com> Message-ID: Wait a second, how did we get this far without the normal objections? * Python isn't stackless. Ok, I'll just shut up ;) * Python doesn't have tail call optimization. I think the thinking is that for loops are more readable than using recursion all over the place. * Python doesn't have a match statement like ML. This is probably because there's no obvious way to make the syntax work. * Python differentiates expressions and statements. This is because Guido thinks that if you allow all statements to be expressions, you get weird situations like defining a 100 line function as a parameter in the middle of calling another function. Looking at modern JavaScript, I would agree with him. However, because of this, you can't write: a = if b: f() else: g() print a I know it's sometimes frustrating, but I think Guido was right to err on the side of readability. * No one has brought up the lack of private variables either. Python doesn't assume that you're an untrustable moron ;) * Python is a half- at ss Lisp with too few parenthesis. Actually, Python takes many of the good parts of Lisp, and makes them more readable ;) Happy Hacking! -jj On Tue, Jun 24, 2008 at 5:03 AM, Shannon -jj Behrens wrote: > Your post did bring up one thing I do like about Ruby. It has a more > defined notion of class scope at class definition time. If Python had > that, I could do something like: > > class B(A): > ... > if hasattr(B, 'foo'): > ... > > That's not possible now, because B doesn't exist until the class is > finished being defined. There are workarounds. It's not a big deal. > I'm just saying ;) > > -jj > > On Mon, Jun 23, 2008 at 4:35 PM, Warren Stringer wrote: >> Ok, so "var=x" instantiates a static var x, yes? For example: >> class a(object): >> b=1 >> # self.b does not work here >> def __init__(self): >> self.b=2 # so declare it in the constructor >> def f(self): >> b=3 >> print a.b, self.b, b >> b=b+1 >> i=a() >> i.f() # => prints 1 2 3 >> a.b=4 >> i.f() # => prints 4 2 3 >> j=a() >> j.f() # => prints 4 2 3 >> a.b=5 # will change for i and j >> i.f() # => prints 5 2 3 >> j.f() # => prints 5 2 3 >> i.b=6 #changes self.b >> i.f() # => prints 5 6 3 >> j.f() # = prints 2 6 3 >> >> >> >> So, the ambiguity is that >> >> whatever=a() will instantiate b=1 once, whereas >> >> whatever.f() will instantiate b=3 always >> >> >> Must keep track that >> a.b behaves differently from i.b, since >> i.b=6 implicitly passes self, >> somewhat akin to i.self.b, tho not quite >> (how would one express as internal dictionaries?) >> As stated about @var, in Ruby: "but conceptually bends Occam's razor -- it >> makes the language introduce one more rule" >> One may make the case that examples for b=1, b=3, a.b=5, i.b=6 also >> introduce more rules. >> This is what confused me the most, when learning Python. I have heard >> similar objections. I have seen plenty of questions posted about this >> problem and have seen many replies posted that essentially say "oh no, not >> THAT question again." >> There are several methods of dealing with objections: >> 1) ignore it by calling it whining >> a) and hope the whiners go away >> 2) acknowledge the problem >> a) show how it solves a bigger problem >> b) show how a fix would create new problems >> 3) eliminate the source of the problem >> a) without creating new problems >> >> Guess which methods increase the popularity/longevity of a product? Since 3) >> is not going to happen for self, I would suggest 2) over 1). >> \~/ >> On Jun 23, 2008, at 8:40 AM, Alex Martelli wrote: >> >> On Mon, Jun 23, 2008 at 7:41 AM, Warren Stringer wrote: >> ... >> >> My guess is that: >> >> 1) 9 times out of 10 the var in self.var is blindingly obvious, >> >> 2) 99 times out of 100 it is obvious after a 10 second search, >> >> I think that there are way more than 1 in 100 uses even just for the >> simplest example that shows this guess to be unfounded: "self.var = x" >> which would allowed to become "var = x" under a deleterious "implicit >> self" rule. >> >> Right now, "var = x" sets a local variable in the method, "self.var = >> x" sets an instance variable: zero ambiguity, zero chances for error, >> zero problems -- well let's say epsilon problems rather than zero, >> because there IS the issue of having to listen to whines against >> "mandatory explicit self";-). >> >> There are good ways and bad ways to address this issue during language >> design. The best way -- as in Modula-3, Python, Perl-5, Ruby -- is to >> explicitly mark instance variables (self.var in Modula-3 and Python, >> $self->{var} in Perl-5, @self in Ruby); a somewhat inferior way -- as >> in Squeak -- is to give up some of the language's dynamic nature by >> forcing variables to be declared; a worse way would be to break >> symmetry by using the explicit mark in assignment but not in >> reference. >> >> The very worst way is shown by Javascript's "with" statement -- within >> a Javascript "with zap", the meaning of "zop = 23" is essentially >> unguessable as it depends on whether zap already did have a zop >> attribute (in which case it rebinds it) or not (in which case it binds >> a global variable -- unless there was an earlier declaration of "var >> zop" in this function, in which case it binds the local variable >> instead) -- a mix of forced declaration and blind guessing that good >> books on Javascript (e.g. the short and useful "Javascript, the good >> parts") strive to convince the reader to never, ever use that accursed >> statement. >> >> Within the "explicit mark" camp, Ruby's "@var" is typographically >> concise but conceptually bends Occam's razor -- it makes the language >> introduce one more rule (on the meaning of a "@" prefix) where the >> choice that Python took from Modula-3 just reuses an existing rule >> (whatever.var means exactly the same in all cases, whether "whatever" >> is "self" or something other than "self" -- no special cases, no extra >> rules). >> >> >> Alex >> >> >> > > > > -- > It's a walled garden, but the flowers sure are lovely! > http://jjinux.blogspot.com/ > -- It's a walled garden, but the flowers sure are lovely! http://jjinux.blogspot.com/ From cvrebert at gmail.com Tue Jun 24 14:54:07 2008 From: cvrebert at gmail.com (Chris Rebert) Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 05:54:07 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Frequently Argued Objections In-Reply-To: References: <1213899453.25521.73.camel@sbrown-dev2> <85AFC048-AB0C-46DE-9036-24E2DD5BCB7E@muse.com> <4DC8EEF3-06C9-4759-9E9A-C2612A51102D@muse.com> <55dc209b0806230840l4c141346p395146e04079abde@mail.gmail.com> <0A2D2D17-4102-4BF5-B71E-30B25EE6672D@muse.com> Message-ID: <47c890dc0806240554g2667aabfr9d052d4ba71f62dc@mail.gmail.com> On Tue, Jun 24, 2008 at 5:12 AM, Shannon -jj Behrens wrote: > Wait a second, how did we get this far without the normal objections? > > * Python isn't stackless. > > Ok, I'll just shut up ;) > > * Python doesn't have tail call optimization. > > I think the thinking is that for loops are more readable than using > recursion all over the place. > > * Python doesn't have a match statement like ML. > > This is probably because there's no obvious way to make the syntax work. > > * Python differentiates expressions and statements. > > This is because Guido thinks that if you allow all statements to be > expressions, you get weird situations like defining a 100 line > function as a parameter in the middle of calling another function. > Looking at modern JavaScript, I would agree with him. However, > because of this, you can't write: > > a = if b: > f() > else: > g() > print a Actually, IIRC, you can write that now (the syntax differs slightly): a = f() if b else g() #and it's visually appealing too, unlike ? : line noise! > > I know it's sometimes frustrating, but I think Guido was right to err > on the side of readability. > > * No one has brought up the lack of private variables either. > > Python doesn't assume that you're an untrustable moron ;) > > * Python is a half- at ss Lisp with too few parenthesis. > > Actually, Python takes many of the good parts of Lisp, and makes them > more readable ;) > > Happy Hacking! > -jj > > On Tue, Jun 24, 2008 at 5:03 AM, Shannon -jj Behrens wrote: >> Your post did bring up one thing I do like about Ruby. It has a more >> defined notion of class scope at class definition time. If Python had >> that, I could do something like: >> >> class B(A): >> ... >> if hasattr(B, 'foo'): >> ... >> >> That's not possible now, because B doesn't exist until the class is >> finished being defined. There are workarounds. It's not a big deal. >> I'm just saying ;) >> >> -jj >> >> On Mon, Jun 23, 2008 at 4:35 PM, Warren Stringer wrote: >>> Ok, so "var=x" instantiates a static var x, yes? For example: >>> class a(object): >>> b=1 >>> # self.b does not work here >>> def __init__(self): >>> self.b=2 # so declare it in the constructor >>> def f(self): >>> b=3 >>> print a.b, self.b, b >>> b=b+1 >>> i=a() >>> i.f() # => prints 1 2 3 >>> a.b=4 >>> i.f() # => prints 4 2 3 >>> j=a() >>> j.f() # => prints 4 2 3 >>> a.b=5 # will change for i and j >>> i.f() # => prints 5 2 3 >>> j.f() # => prints 5 2 3 >>> i.b=6 #changes self.b >>> i.f() # => prints 5 6 3 >>> j.f() # = prints 2 6 3 >>> >>> >>> >>> So, the ambiguity is that >>> >>> whatever=a() will instantiate b=1 once, whereas >>> >>> whatever.f() will instantiate b=3 always >>> >>> >>> Must keep track that >>> a.b behaves differently from i.b, since >>> i.b=6 implicitly passes self, >>> somewhat akin to i.self.b, tho not quite >>> (how would one express as internal dictionaries?) >>> As stated about @var, in Ruby: "but conceptually bends Occam's razor -- it >>> makes the language introduce one more rule" >>> One may make the case that examples for b=1, b=3, a.b=5, i.b=6 also >>> introduce more rules. >>> This is what confused me the most, when learning Python. I have heard >>> similar objections. I have seen plenty of questions posted about this >>> problem and have seen many replies posted that essentially say "oh no, not >>> THAT question again." >>> There are several methods of dealing with objections: >>> 1) ignore it by calling it whining >>> a) and hope the whiners go away >>> 2) acknowledge the problem >>> a) show how it solves a bigger problem >>> b) show how a fix would create new problems >>> 3) eliminate the source of the problem >>> a) without creating new problems >>> >>> Guess which methods increase the popularity/longevity of a product? Since 3) >>> is not going to happen for self, I would suggest 2) over 1). >>> \~/ >>> On Jun 23, 2008, at 8:40 AM, Alex Martelli wrote: >>> >>> On Mon, Jun 23, 2008 at 7:41 AM, Warren Stringer wrote: >>> ... >>> >>> My guess is that: >>> >>> 1) 9 times out of 10 the var in self.var is blindingly obvious, >>> >>> 2) 99 times out of 100 it is obvious after a 10 second search, >>> >>> I think that there are way more than 1 in 100 uses even just for the >>> simplest example that shows this guess to be unfounded: "self.var = x" >>> which would allowed to become "var = x" under a deleterious "implicit >>> self" rule. >>> >>> Right now, "var = x" sets a local variable in the method, "self.var = >>> x" sets an instance variable: zero ambiguity, zero chances for error, >>> zero problems -- well let's say epsilon problems rather than zero, >>> because there IS the issue of having to listen to whines against >>> "mandatory explicit self";-). >>> >>> There are good ways and bad ways to address this issue during language >>> design. The best way -- as in Modula-3, Python, Perl-5, Ruby -- is to >>> explicitly mark instance variables (self.var in Modula-3 and Python, >>> $self->{var} in Perl-5, @self in Ruby); a somewhat inferior way -- as >>> in Squeak -- is to give up some of the language's dynamic nature by >>> forcing variables to be declared; a worse way would be to break >>> symmetry by using the explicit mark in assignment but not in >>> reference. >>> >>> The very worst way is shown by Javascript's "with" statement -- within >>> a Javascript "with zap", the meaning of "zop = 23" is essentially >>> unguessable as it depends on whether zap already did have a zop >>> attribute (in which case it rebinds it) or not (in which case it binds >>> a global variable -- unless there was an earlier declaration of "var >>> zop" in this function, in which case it binds the local variable >>> instead) -- a mix of forced declaration and blind guessing that good >>> books on Javascript (e.g. the short and useful "Javascript, the good >>> parts") strive to convince the reader to never, ever use that accursed >>> statement. >>> >>> Within the "explicit mark" camp, Ruby's "@var" is typographically >>> concise but conceptually bends Occam's razor -- it makes the language >>> introduce one more rule (on the meaning of a "@" prefix) where the >>> choice that Python took from Modula-3 just reuses an existing rule >>> (whatever.var means exactly the same in all cases, whether "whatever" >>> is "self" or something other than "self" -- no special cases, no extra >>> rules). >>> >>> >>> Alex >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> >> -- >> It's a walled garden, but the flowers sure are lovely! >> http://jjinux.blogspot.com/ >> > > > > -- > It's a walled garden, but the flowers sure are lovely! > http://jjinux.blogspot.com/ > _______________________________________________ > Baypiggies mailing list > Baypiggies at python.org > To change your subscription options or unsubscribe: > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies > From aleax at google.com Tue Jun 24 19:28:10 2008 From: aleax at google.com (Alex Martelli) Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 10:28:10 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Frequently Argued Objections In-Reply-To: References: <1213899453.25521.73.camel@sbrown-dev2> <85AFC048-AB0C-46DE-9036-24E2DD5BCB7E@muse.com> <4DC8EEF3-06C9-4759-9E9A-C2612A51102D@muse.com> <55dc209b0806230840l4c141346p395146e04079abde@mail.gmail.com> <0A2D2D17-4102-4BF5-B71E-30B25EE6672D@muse.com> Message-ID: <55dc209b0806241028qa1d1d25k2ea76fbff564d8bc@mail.gmail.com> On Tue, Jun 24, 2008 at 5:03 AM, Shannon -jj Behrens wrote: > Your post did bring up one thing I do like about Ruby. It has a more > defined notion of class scope at class definition time. If Python had > that, I could do something like: > > class B(A): > ... > if hasattr(B, 'foo'): > ... > > That's not possible now, because B doesn't exist until the class is > finished being defined. There are workarounds. It's not a big deal. > I'm just saying ;) Why do you consider "a workaround" to code for such weird needs: >>> class B(object): ... foo = 23 ... if 'foo' in locals(): print 'foo is', foo ... else: print 'no foo' ... foo is 23 Seems very direct to me -- the class's direct attributes are kept in the class body's locals() while said body executes, and that's the dict that's passed to the metaclass's __new__ (and possibly __init__) (plus of course each base class may have more attributes). This is a perfectly well defined and documented "notion of scope during class definition" (even though I've never felt the need to use it within the class body, as opposed to using it in some metaclass). What am I missing? Alex From matt at matt-good.net Tue Jun 24 22:51:41 2008 From: matt at matt-good.net (Matt Good) Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 13:51:41 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] hold a meeting at YouTube in San Bruno? Message-ID: <99699B5B-FDD8-405E-9EC7-C7EA9432166F@matt-good.net> How would you feel about having one of the upcoming meetings in San Bruno at the new YouTube office? I've had a couple people ask me about this and it seems like it might make the meeting more accessible to people living in SF that have a harder time getting down to Mountain View. The office is a 15-20 minute walk from the San Bruno BART and there may be a few generous individuals willing to shuttle some people over as well. Plus it'd be extremely convenient for our Pythonista neighbors across the street at IronPort. -- Matt From bgutierrez at gmail.com Tue Jun 24 23:24:04 2008 From: bgutierrez at gmail.com (Ben Gutierrez) Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 14:24:04 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] hold a meeting at YouTube in San Bruno? In-Reply-To: <99699B5B-FDD8-405E-9EC7-C7EA9432166F@matt-good.net> References: <99699B5B-FDD8-405E-9EC7-C7EA9432166F@matt-good.net> Message-ID: <49f20c660806241424o12e6cedatddbee1f6ef92601a@mail.gmail.com> This would have my support. I'm one of those SF people that have trouble getting down to Mountain View. Ben On Tue, Jun 24, 2008 at 1:51 PM, Matt Good wrote: > How would you feel about having one of the upcoming meetings in San Bruno at > the new YouTube office? I've had a couple people ask me about this and it > seems like it might make the meeting more accessible to people living in SF > that have a harder time getting down to Mountain View. The office is a > 15-20 minute walk from the San Bruno BART and there may be a few generous > individuals willing to shuttle some people over as well. Plus it'd be > extremely convenient for our Pythonista neighbors across the street at > IronPort. > > -- Matt > _______________________________________________ > Baypiggies mailing list > Baypiggies at python.org > To change your subscription options or unsubscribe: > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies > From mac at Wireless.Com Tue Jun 24 23:33:53 2008 From: mac at Wireless.Com (Mike Cheponis) Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 14:33:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Baypiggies] hold a meeting at YouTube in San Bruno? In-Reply-To: <99699B5B-FDD8-405E-9EC7-C7EA9432166F@matt-good.net> References: <99699B5B-FDD8-405E-9EC7-C7EA9432166F@matt-good.net> Message-ID: I think this would be a terrible idea. That's because a regular place and a regular time are tantamount to a vibrant user group. Stephen McInerney's survey showed where we are is the best for everybody (maximizes "utility"). -Mike On Tue, 24 Jun 2008, Matt Good wrote: > Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 13:51:41 -0700 > From: Matt Good > To: BayPiggies > Subject: [Baypiggies] hold a meeting at YouTube in San Bruno? > > How would you feel about having one of the upcoming meetings in San Bruno at > the new YouTube office? I've had a couple people ask me about this and it > seems like it might make the meeting more accessible to people living in SF > that have a harder time getting down to Mountain View. The office is a 15-20 > minute walk from the San Bruno BART and there may be a few generous > individuals willing to shuttle some people over as well. Plus it'd be > extremely convenient for our Pythonista neighbors across the street at > IronPort. > > -- Matt From charles.merriam at gmail.com Tue Jun 24 23:35:51 2008 From: charles.merriam at gmail.com (Charles Merriam) Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 14:35:51 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] hold a meeting at YouTube in San Bruno? In-Reply-To: <99699B5B-FDD8-405E-9EC7-C7EA9432166F@matt-good.net> References: <99699B5B-FDD8-405E-9EC7-C7EA9432166F@matt-good.net> Message-ID: -1 Consistency good. From cappy2112 at gmail.com Tue Jun 24 23:59:17 2008 From: cappy2112 at gmail.com (Tony Cappellini) Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 14:59:17 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] hold a meeting at YouTube in San Bruno? In-Reply-To: <99699B5B-FDD8-405E-9EC7-C7EA9432166F@matt-good.net> References: <99699B5B-FDD8-405E-9EC7-C7EA9432166F@matt-good.net> Message-ID: <8249c4ac0806241459x1e5bc893ufdad106ef332fa70@mail.gmail.com> I guess I'm ok with it, but would want to carpool. +1 We used to alternate meetings at IronPort. Can we get a presentation from one of the YouTube staff for an upcoming meeting (at either location)? On Tue, Jun 24, 2008 at 1:51 PM, Matt Good wrote: > How would you feel about having one of the upcoming meetings in San Bruno > at the new YouTube office? I've had a couple people ask me about this and > it seems like it might make the meeting more accessible to people living in > SF that have a harder time getting down to Mountain View. The office is a > 15-20 minute walk from the San Bruno BART and there may be a few generous > individuals willing to shuttle some people over as well. Plus it'd be > extremely convenient for our Pythonista neighbors across the street at > IronPort. > > -- Matt > _______________________________________________ > Baypiggies mailing list > Baypiggies at python.org > To change your subscription options or unsubscribe: > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From slander at unworkable.org Tue Jun 24 23:59:31 2008 From: slander at unworkable.org (Harry Tormey) Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 22:59:31 +0100 Subject: [Baypiggies] hold a meeting at YouTube in San Bruno? In-Reply-To: <99699B5B-FDD8-405E-9EC7-C7EA9432166F@matt-good.net> References: <99699B5B-FDD8-405E-9EC7-C7EA9432166F@matt-good.net> Message-ID: <20080624215931.GB9668@unworkable.org> +1 San Bruno is easier to get to from SF without a car. -H On Tue, Jun 24, 2008 at 01:51:41PM -0700, Matt Good wrote: > How would you feel about having one of the upcoming meetings in San > Bruno at the new YouTube office? I've had a couple people ask me > about this and it seems like it might make the meeting more accessible > to people living in SF that have a harder time getting down to > Mountain View. The office is a 15-20 minute walk from the San Bruno > BART and there may be a few generous individuals willing to shuttle > some people over as well. Plus it'd be extremely convenient for our > Pythonista neighbors across the street at IronPort. > > -- Matt > _______________________________________________ > Baypiggies mailing list > Baypiggies at python.org > To change your subscription options or unsubscribe: > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies From daryl.spitzer at gmail.com Wed Jun 25 00:01:50 2008 From: daryl.spitzer at gmail.com (Daryl Spitzer) Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 15:01:50 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] hold a meeting at YouTube in San Bruno? In-Reply-To: <20080624215931.GB9668@unworkable.org> References: <99699B5B-FDD8-405E-9EC7-C7EA9432166F@matt-good.net> <20080624215931.GB9668@unworkable.org> Message-ID: -1 - San Bruno is much further from Santa Cruz -- Daryl On Tue, Jun 24, 2008 at 2:59 PM, Harry Tormey wrote: > +1 San Bruno is easier to get to from SF without a car. > > -H > > On Tue, Jun 24, 2008 at 01:51:41PM -0700, Matt Good wrote: >> How would you feel about having one of the upcoming meetings in San >> Bruno at the new YouTube office? I've had a couple people ask me >> about this and it seems like it might make the meeting more accessible >> to people living in SF that have a harder time getting down to >> Mountain View. The office is a 15-20 minute walk from the San Bruno >> BART and there may be a few generous individuals willing to shuttle >> some people over as well. Plus it'd be extremely convenient for our >> Pythonista neighbors across the street at IronPort. >> >> -- Matt >> _______________________________________________ >> Baypiggies mailing list >> Baypiggies at python.org >> To change your subscription options or unsubscribe: >> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies > _______________________________________________ > Baypiggies mailing list > Baypiggies at python.org > To change your subscription options or unsubscribe: > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies > From varmaa at gmail.com Wed Jun 25 00:12:56 2008 From: varmaa at gmail.com (Atul Varma) Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 15:12:56 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] hold a meeting at YouTube in San Bruno? In-Reply-To: References: <99699B5B-FDD8-405E-9EC7-C7EA9432166F@matt-good.net> Message-ID: <361b27370806241512u51ab1a9dh41454428556062e7@mail.gmail.com> On Tue, Jun 24, 2008 at 2:33 PM, Mike Cheponis wrote: > I think this would be a terrible idea. > > That's because a regular place and a regular time are tantamount to a > vibrant user group. Stephen McInerney's survey showed where we are is the > best for everybody (maximizes "utility"). > Coming from the Chicago Python User Group (ChiPy) and having moved here in late March, I actually strongly disagree here. ChiPy, which in my opinion is a very vibrant user group, hosts its meetings at a different place each month; it varies between being held at Google Chicago, ThoughtWorks, Threadless, other companies, and non-corporate places too (last summer there was a meeting in the common area of someone's apartment complex, which might sound weird, but I personally love the DIY/hackerish feel of such gatherings). One of the really interesting things about this is that we get a fairly different spread of people depending on where we hold it, which I think improved diversity. And not to knock on Google--they're an absolutely awesome company and everyone I know in it rocks--but the Google meetings tended to have a more impersonal and less community-centered feel to them, simply because a lot of "google oglers" who weren't particularly interested in Python came, which diluted the experience a bit. I've only been to one BayPiggies meeting so far so I'm not sure if this is an issue or not here, but for the sake of having a more diverse range of attendees, I think it'd be really great to vary the location from month to month. - Atul -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From andrew at atoulou.se Wed Jun 25 00:21:29 2008 From: andrew at atoulou.se (Andrew Toulouse) Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 15:21:29 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] hold a meeting at YouTube in San Bruno? In-Reply-To: <99699B5B-FDD8-405E-9EC7-C7EA9432166F@matt-good.net> References: <99699B5B-FDD8-405E-9EC7-C7EA9432166F@matt-good.net> Message-ID: I haven't been to a BayPiggies meeting, but I signed up for the list with the intent to start. I missed the last BayPiggies meeting because I couldn't arrange a ride down there in time, and this would definitely make it easier. I'm in Berkeley and I don't drive. +1 San Bruno. On Tue, Jun 24, 2008 at 1:51 PM, Matt Good wrote: > How would you feel about having one of the upcoming meetings in San Bruno > at the new YouTube office? I've had a couple people ask me about this and > it seems like it might make the meeting more accessible to people living in > SF that have a harder time getting down to Mountain View. The office is a > 15-20 minute walk from the San Bruno BART and there may be a few generous > individuals willing to shuttle some people over as well. Plus it'd be > extremely convenient for our Pythonista neighbors across the street at > IronPort. > > -- Matt > _______________________________________________ > Baypiggies mailing list > Baypiggies at python.org > To change your subscription options or unsubscribe: > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From progrium at gmail.com Wed Jun 25 00:29:26 2008 From: progrium at gmail.com (Jeff Lindsay) Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 15:29:26 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] hold a meeting at YouTube in San Bruno? In-Reply-To: References: <99699B5B-FDD8-405E-9EC7-C7EA9432166F@matt-good.net> Message-ID: I'm not sure how valid this is. SuperHappyDevHouse maintains a 150+ turnout every month and we alternate between consistent locations most of the time and throw in new ones every now and then. The community is in fact better than if we didn't. We're not even consistent about the time! Sometimes we don't even announce a date until a week or two in advance. Yet we're steadily growing and people love it. -shrug- Different kind of event I suppose? -jeff On Tue, Jun 24, 2008 at 2:33 PM, Mike Cheponis wrote: > I think this would be a terrible idea. > > That's because a regular place and a regular time are tantamount to a > vibrant user group. Stephen McInerney's survey showed where we are is the > best for everybody (maximizes "utility"). > > -Mike > > > On Tue, 24 Jun 2008, Matt Good wrote: > >> Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 13:51:41 -0700 >> From: Matt Good >> To: BayPiggies >> Subject: [Baypiggies] hold a meeting at YouTube in San Bruno? >> >> How would you feel about having one of the upcoming meetings in San Bruno >> at the new YouTube office? I've had a couple people ask me about this and >> it seems like it might make the meeting more accessible to people living in >> SF that have a harder time getting down to Mountain View. The office is a >> 15-20 minute walk from the San Bruno BART and there may be a few generous >> individuals willing to shuttle some people over as well. Plus it'd be >> extremely convenient for our Pythonista neighbors across the street at >> IronPort. >> >> -- Matt > > _______________________________________________ > Baypiggies mailing list > Baypiggies at python.org > To change your subscription options or unsubscribe: > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies > -- Jeff Lindsay http://devjavu.com -- Free Trac and Subversion http://groksystems.com -- Learn about systems theory From charles.merriam at gmail.com Wed Jun 25 00:39:43 2008 From: charles.merriam at gmail.com (Charles Merriam) Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 15:39:43 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] hold a meeting at YouTube in San Bruno? In-Reply-To: References: <99699B5B-FDD8-405E-9EC7-C7EA9432166F@matt-good.net> Message-ID: Hmmm.... If we end up in San Bruno, let's have a pre-meeting dinner down in Mountain View to meet up for a carpool. If we end up in San Francisco, have a pre-meeting dinner off a southern Bart/Caltrans station. San Bruno adds approximately 50 minutes to get there (28.4 miles in rush hour) for people going to the meeting from the south. The other direction is a bit better; less rush hour traffic. -- Charles On Tue, Jun 24, 2008 at 3:29 PM, Jeff Lindsay wrote: > I'm not sure how valid this is. SuperHappyDevHouse maintains a 150+ > turnout every month and we alternate between consistent locations most > of the time and throw in new ones every now and then. The community is > in fact better than if we didn't. We're not even consistent about the > time! Sometimes we don't even announce a date until a week or two in > advance. Yet we're steadily growing and people love it. > > -shrug- > > Different kind of event I suppose? > > -jeff > > On Tue, Jun 24, 2008 at 2:33 PM, Mike Cheponis wrote: >> I think this would be a terrible idea. >> >> That's because a regular place and a regular time are tantamount to a >> vibrant user group. Stephen McInerney's survey showed where we are is the >> best for everybody (maximizes "utility"). >> >> -Mike >> >> >> On Tue, 24 Jun 2008, Matt Good wrote: >> >>> Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 13:51:41 -0700 >>> From: Matt Good >>> To: BayPiggies >>> Subject: [Baypiggies] hold a meeting at YouTube in San Bruno? >>> >>> How would you feel about having one of the upcoming meetings in San Bruno >>> at the new YouTube office? I've had a couple people ask me about this and >>> it seems like it might make the meeting more accessible to people living in >>> SF that have a harder time getting down to Mountain View. The office is a >>> 15-20 minute walk from the San Bruno BART and there may be a few generous >>> individuals willing to shuttle some people over as well. Plus it'd be >>> extremely convenient for our Pythonista neighbors across the street at >>> IronPort. >>> >>> -- Matt >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Baypiggies mailing list >> Baypiggies at python.org >> To change your subscription options or unsubscribe: >> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies >> > > > > -- > Jeff Lindsay > http://devjavu.com -- Free Trac and Subversion > http://groksystems.com -- Learn about systems theory > _______________________________________________ > Baypiggies mailing list > Baypiggies at python.org > To change your subscription options or unsubscribe: > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies > From alecf at flett.org Wed Jun 25 01:03:10 2008 From: alecf at flett.org (Alec Flett) Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 16:03:10 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] hold a meeting at YouTube in San Bruno? In-Reply-To: References: <99699B5B-FDD8-405E-9EC7-C7EA9432166F@matt-good.net> Message-ID: +1 for purely selfish reasons... I live in berkeley, work in SF, and have a family. I've been to BayPiggies I think 3 times ever purely because of I'd spend more time travelling than at the meeting... For SF, and ESPECIALLY east bay folks, Google is really inaccessible. There's no easy way to get from the caltrain station to Google without a bike, and travel by public transport is about 2 hours to get to Berkeley/Oakland at night after the bullet caltrains have stopped running. Alec On Tue, Jun 24, 2008 at 3:21 PM, Andrew Toulouse wrote: > I haven't been to a BayPiggies meeting, but I signed up for the list with > the intent to start. I missed the last BayPiggies meeting because I couldn't > arrange a ride down there in time, and this would definitely make it easier. > I'm in Berkeley and I don't drive. > > +1 San Bruno. > > On Tue, Jun 24, 2008 at 1:51 PM, Matt Good wrote: > >> How would you feel about having one of the upcoming meetings in San Bruno >> at the new YouTube office? I've had a couple people ask me about this and >> it seems like it might make the meeting more accessible to people living in >> SF that have a harder time getting down to Mountain View. The office is a >> 15-20 minute walk from the San Bruno BART and there may be a few generous >> individuals willing to shuttle some people over as well. Plus it'd be >> extremely convenient for our Pythonista neighbors across the street at >> IronPort. >> >> -- Matt >> _______________________________________________ >> Baypiggies mailing list >> Baypiggies at python.org >> To change your subscription options or unsubscribe: >> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies >> > > > _______________________________________________ > Baypiggies mailing list > Baypiggies at python.org > To change your subscription options or unsubscribe: > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From adam at hupp.org Wed Jun 25 01:04:23 2008 From: adam at hupp.org (Adam Hupp) Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 16:04:23 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] hold a meeting at YouTube in San Bruno? In-Reply-To: References: <99699B5B-FDD8-405E-9EC7-C7EA9432166F@matt-good.net> Message-ID: <766a29bd0806241604t64ccf365nbc6910474313eed6@mail.gmail.com> +1 on an SF meeting. The triangle python group (trizpug) rotates meetings between 3 different locations and it works fine. IMO this is a necessity when the group is distributed over a large geographic area (as we are here). On Tue, Jun 24, 2008 at 2:33 PM, Mike Cheponis wrote: > I think this would be a terrible idea. > > That's because a regular place and a regular time are tantamount to a > vibrant user group. Stephen McInerney's survey showed where we are is the > best for everybody (maximizes "utility"). > > -Mike > > > On Tue, 24 Jun 2008, Matt Good wrote: > >> Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 13:51:41 -0700 >> From: Matt Good >> To: BayPiggies >> Subject: [Baypiggies] hold a meeting at YouTube in San Bruno? >> >> How would you feel about having one of the upcoming meetings in San Bruno >> at the new YouTube office? I've had a couple people ask me about this and >> it seems like it might make the meeting more accessible to people living in >> SF that have a harder time getting down to Mountain View. The office is a >> 15-20 minute walk from the San Bruno BART and there may be a few generous >> individuals willing to shuttle some people over as well. Plus it'd be >> extremely convenient for our Pythonista neighbors across the street at >> IronPort. >> >> -- Matt > > _______________________________________________ > Baypiggies mailing list > Baypiggies at python.org > To change your subscription options or unsubscribe: > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies > -- Adam Hupp | http://hupp.org/adam/ From bdbaddog at gmail.com Wed Jun 25 01:05:39 2008 From: bdbaddog at gmail.com (William Deegan) Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 16:05:39 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] hold a meeting at YouTube in San Bruno? In-Reply-To: References: <99699B5B-FDD8-405E-9EC7-C7EA9432166F@matt-good.net> Message-ID: <8540148a0806241605t997c9dfqaf00db794c840a77@mail.gmail.com> Since Google MV has a SF shuttle from a SF based limo company, does anyone know if the bus returns to SF and then comes back down at the end of the day (thus making it easier for SF based to attend if it could be used), or not? -Bill On Tue, Jun 24, 2008 at 3:39 PM, Charles Merriam wrote: > Hmmm.... > > If we end up in San Bruno, let's have a pre-meeting dinner down in > Mountain View to meet up for a carpool. > If we end up in San Francisco, have a pre-meeting dinner off a > southern Bart/Caltrans station. > > San Bruno adds approximately 50 minutes to get there (28.4 miles in rush > hour) > for people going to the meeting from the south. The other direction > is a bit better; > less rush hour traffic. > > -- Charles > > On Tue, Jun 24, 2008 at 3:29 PM, Jeff Lindsay wrote: > > I'm not sure how valid this is. SuperHappyDevHouse maintains a 150+ > > turnout every month and we alternate between consistent locations most > > of the time and throw in new ones every now and then. The community is > > in fact better than if we didn't. We're not even consistent about the > > time! Sometimes we don't even announce a date until a week or two in > > advance. Yet we're steadily growing and people love it. > > > > -shrug- > > > > Different kind of event I suppose? > > > > -jeff > > > > On Tue, Jun 24, 2008 at 2:33 PM, Mike Cheponis wrote: > >> I think this would be a terrible idea. > >> > >> That's because a regular place and a regular time are tantamount to a > >> vibrant user group. Stephen McInerney's survey showed where we are is > the > >> best for everybody (maximizes "utility"). > >> > >> -Mike > >> > >> > >> On Tue, 24 Jun 2008, Matt Good wrote: > >> > >>> Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 13:51:41 -0700 > >>> From: Matt Good > >>> To: BayPiggies > >>> Subject: [Baypiggies] hold a meeting at YouTube in San Bruno? > >>> > >>> How would you feel about having one of the upcoming meetings in San > Bruno > >>> at the new YouTube office? I've had a couple people ask me about this > and > >>> it seems like it might make the meeting more accessible to people > living in > >>> SF that have a harder time getting down to Mountain View. The office > is a > >>> 15-20 minute walk from the San Bruno BART and there may be a few > generous > >>> individuals willing to shuttle some people over as well. Plus it'd be > >>> extremely convenient for our Pythonista neighbors across the street at > >>> IronPort. > >>> > >>> -- Matt > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Baypiggies mailing list > >> Baypiggies at python.org > >> To change your subscription options or unsubscribe: > >> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies > >> > > > > > > > > -- > > Jeff Lindsay > > http://devjavu.com -- Free Trac and Subversion > > http://groksystems.com -- Learn about systems theory > > _______________________________________________ > > Baypiggies mailing list > > Baypiggies at python.org > > To change your subscription options or unsubscribe: > > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies > > > _______________________________________________ > Baypiggies mailing list > Baypiggies at python.org > To change your subscription options or unsubscribe: > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mac at Wireless.Com Wed Jun 25 01:08:23 2008 From: mac at Wireless.Com (Mike Cheponis) Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 16:08:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Baypiggies] hold a meeting at YouTube in San Bruno? In-Reply-To: References: <99699B5B-FDD8-405E-9EC7-C7EA9432166F@matt-good.net> Message-ID: > On Tue, Jun 24, 2008 at 3:29 PM, Jeff Lindsay wrote: >> I'm not sure how valid this is. SuperHappyDevHouse maintains a 150+ >> turnout every month and we alternate between consistent locations most ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ That's the key. The python group tried alternating between n.bay and google, and google won. >> of the time and throw in new ones every now and then. The community is >> in fact better than if we didn't. We're not even consistent about the >> time! Sometimes we don't even announce a date until a week or two in >> advance. Yet we're steadily growing and people love it. I think the crowd of DevHouse is considerably different than the Python crowd, although there is obviously some overlap. >> >> -shrug- >> >> Different kind of event I suppose? Yes. The Python group has a scheduled meeting speaker, and a format to the meetings. DevHouse is random hacking. --- I have nothing against an ADDITIONAL python-inspired meeting somewhere else, but I don't think the main meeting should be hijacked. -Mike >> -jeff >> >> On Tue, Jun 24, 2008 at 2:33 PM, Mike Cheponis wrote: >>> I think this would be a terrible idea. >>> >>> That's because a regular place and a regular time are tantamount to a >>> vibrant user group. Stephen McInerney's survey showed where we are is the >>> best for everybody (maximizes "utility"). >>> >>> -Mike >>> >>> >>> On Tue, 24 Jun 2008, Matt Good wrote: >>> >>>> Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 13:51:41 -0700 >>>> From: Matt Good >>>> To: BayPiggies >>>> Subject: [Baypiggies] hold a meeting at YouTube in San Bruno? >>>> >>>> How would you feel about having one of the upcoming meetings in San Bruno >>>> at the new YouTube office? I've had a couple people ask me about this and >>>> it seems like it might make the meeting more accessible to people living in >>>> SF that have a harder time getting down to Mountain View. The office is a >>>> 15-20 minute walk from the San Bruno BART and there may be a few generous >>>> individuals willing to shuttle some people over as well. Plus it'd be >>>> extremely convenient for our Pythonista neighbors across the street at >>>> IronPort. >>>> >>>> -- Matt >> -- >> Jeff Lindsay >> http://devjavu.com -- Free Trac and Subversion p.s. do you know what "TRAC" was before it was comandeered for this other use? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TRAC_programming_language >> http://groksystems.com -- Learn about systems theory From daryl.spitzer at gmail.com Wed Jun 25 01:09:00 2008 From: daryl.spitzer at gmail.com (Daryl Spitzer) Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 16:09:00 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] hold a meeting at YouTube in San Bruno? In-Reply-To: References: <99699B5B-FDD8-405E-9EC7-C7EA9432166F@matt-good.net> Message-ID: My -1 was also for purely selfish reasons. And there will likely be plenty more selfish +1s than -1s. Alternating meetings (or at least meeting closer to SF more frequently) seems fair. -- Daryl On Tue, Jun 24, 2008 at 4:03 PM, Alec Flett wrote: > +1 for purely selfish reasons... > > I live in berkeley, work in SF, and have a family. I've been to BayPiggies > I think 3 times ever purely because of I'd spend more time travelling than > at the meeting... > > For SF, and ESPECIALLY east bay folks, Google is really inaccessible. > There's no easy way to get from the caltrain station to Google without a > bike, and travel by public transport is about 2 hours to get to > Berkeley/Oakland at night after the bullet caltrains have stopped running. > > Alec > > On Tue, Jun 24, 2008 at 3:21 PM, Andrew Toulouse wrote: >> >> I haven't been to a BayPiggies meeting, but I signed up for the list with >> the intent to start. I missed the last BayPiggies meeting because I couldn't >> arrange a ride down there in time, and this would definitely make it easier. >> I'm in Berkeley and I don't drive. >> >> +1 San Bruno. >> >> On Tue, Jun 24, 2008 at 1:51 PM, Matt Good wrote: >>> >>> How would you feel about having one of the upcoming meetings in San Bruno >>> at the new YouTube office? I've had a couple people ask me about this and >>> it seems like it might make the meeting more accessible to people living in >>> SF that have a harder time getting down to Mountain View. The office is a >>> 15-20 minute walk from the San Bruno BART and there may be a few generous >>> individuals willing to shuttle some people over as well. Plus it'd be >>> extremely convenient for our Pythonista neighbors across the street at >>> IronPort. >>> >>> -- Matt >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Baypiggies mailing list >>> Baypiggies at python.org >>> To change your subscription options or unsubscribe: >>> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Baypiggies mailing list >> Baypiggies at python.org >> To change your subscription options or unsubscribe: >> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies > > > _______________________________________________ > Baypiggies mailing list > Baypiggies at python.org > To change your subscription options or unsubscribe: > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies > From LDavid at verisign.com Wed Jun 25 00:04:32 2008 From: LDavid at verisign.com (David, Lysander) Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 15:04:32 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] hold a meeting at YouTube in San Bruno? In-Reply-To: References: <99699B5B-FDD8-405E-9EC7-C7EA9432166F@matt-good.net><20080624215931.GB9668@unworkable.org> Message-ID: <336461CBD5DD254491155461534409FA010948C0@MOU1WNEXMB14.vcorp.ad.vrsn.com> -1 - The current location is a good compromise -----Original Message----- From: baypiggies-bounces+ldavid=verisign.com at python.org [mailto:baypiggies-bounces+ldavid=verisign.com at python.org] On Behalf Of Daryl Spitzer Sent: Tuesday, June 24, 2008 3:02 PM To: BayPiggies Subject: Re: [Baypiggies] hold a meeting at YouTube in San Bruno? -1 - San Bruno is much further from Santa Cruz -- Daryl On Tue, Jun 24, 2008 at 2:59 PM, Harry Tormey wrote: > +1 San Bruno is easier to get to from SF without a car. > > -H > > On Tue, Jun 24, 2008 at 01:51:41PM -0700, Matt Good wrote: >> How would you feel about having one of the upcoming meetings in San >> Bruno at the new YouTube office? I've had a couple people ask me >> about this and it seems like it might make the meeting more >> accessible to people living in SF that have a harder time getting >> down to Mountain View. The office is a 15-20 minute walk from the >> San Bruno BART and there may be a few generous individuals willing to >> shuttle some people over as well. Plus it'd be extremely convenient >> for our Pythonista neighbors across the street at IronPort. >> >> -- Matt >> _______________________________________________ >> Baypiggies mailing list >> Baypiggies at python.org >> To change your subscription options or unsubscribe: >> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies > _______________________________________________ > Baypiggies mailing list > Baypiggies at python.org > To change your subscription options or unsubscribe: > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies > _______________________________________________ Baypiggies mailing list Baypiggies at python.org To change your subscription options or unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies From bdbaddog at gmail.com Wed Jun 25 01:21:53 2008 From: bdbaddog at gmail.com (William Deegan) Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 16:21:53 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] hold a meeting at YouTube in San Bruno? In-Reply-To: <336461CBD5DD254491155461534409FA010948C0@MOU1WNEXMB14.vcorp.ad.vrsn.com> References: <99699B5B-FDD8-405E-9EC7-C7EA9432166F@matt-good.net> <20080624215931.GB9668@unworkable.org> <336461CBD5DD254491155461534409FA010948C0@MOU1WNEXMB14.vcorp.ad.vrsn.com> Message-ID: <8540148a0806241621w11a44e6bu743ca48702dc000e@mail.gmail.com> Greetings, Creative option #2... Does Google/Youtube have large video conferenced rooms available? Perhaps we could have a multi-location baypiggies meeting every once in a while? -Bill On Tue, Jun 24, 2008 at 3:04 PM, David, Lysander wrote: > -1 - The current location is a good compromise > > -----Original Message----- > From: baypiggies-bounces+ldavid=verisign.com at python.org > [mailto:baypiggies-bounces+ldavid = > verisign.com at python.org] On Behalf Of > Daryl Spitzer > Sent: Tuesday, June 24, 2008 3:02 PM > To: BayPiggies > Subject: Re: [Baypiggies] hold a meeting at YouTube in San Bruno? > > -1 - San Bruno is much further from Santa Cruz > > -- > Daryl > > > On Tue, Jun 24, 2008 at 2:59 PM, Harry Tormey > wrote: > > +1 San Bruno is easier to get to from SF without a car. > > > > -H > > > > On Tue, Jun 24, 2008 at 01:51:41PM -0700, Matt Good wrote: > >> How would you feel about having one of the upcoming meetings in San > >> Bruno at the new YouTube office? I've had a couple people ask me > >> about this and it seems like it might make the meeting more > >> accessible to people living in SF that have a harder time getting > >> down to Mountain View. The office is a 15-20 minute walk from the > >> San Bruno BART and there may be a few generous individuals willing to > > >> shuttle some people over as well. Plus it'd be extremely convenient > >> for our Pythonista neighbors across the street at IronPort. > >> > >> -- Matt > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Baypiggies mailing list > >> Baypiggies at python.org > >> To change your subscription options or unsubscribe: > >> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies > > _______________________________________________ > > Baypiggies mailing list > > Baypiggies at python.org > > To change your subscription options or unsubscribe: > > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies > > > _______________________________________________ > Baypiggies mailing list > Baypiggies at python.org > To change your subscription options or unsubscribe: > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies > _______________________________________________ > Baypiggies mailing list > Baypiggies at python.org > To change your subscription options or unsubscribe: > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From niallo at unworkable.org Wed Jun 25 01:25:50 2008 From: niallo at unworkable.org (Niall O'Higgins) Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 00:25:50 +0100 Subject: [Baypiggies] hold a meeting at YouTube in San Bruno? In-Reply-To: References: <99699B5B-FDD8-405E-9EC7-C7EA9432166F@matt-good.net> Message-ID: <20080624232550.GB1692@unworkable.org> +1. Much more accessible without driving. On Tue, Jun 24, 2008 at 04:09:00PM -0700, Daryl Spitzer wrote: > My -1 was also for purely selfish reasons. And there will likely be > plenty more selfish +1s than -1s. > > Alternating meetings (or at least meeting closer to SF more > frequently) seems fair. > > -- > Daryl > > > On Tue, Jun 24, 2008 at 4:03 PM, Alec Flett wrote: > > +1 for purely selfish reasons... > > > > I live in berkeley, work in SF, and have a family. I've been to BayPiggies > > I think 3 times ever purely because of I'd spend more time travelling than > > at the meeting... > > > > For SF, and ESPECIALLY east bay folks, Google is really inaccessible. > > There's no easy way to get from the caltrain station to Google without a > > bike, and travel by public transport is about 2 hours to get to > > Berkeley/Oakland at night after the bullet caltrains have stopped running. > > > > Alec > > > > On Tue, Jun 24, 2008 at 3:21 PM, Andrew Toulouse wrote: > >> > >> I haven't been to a BayPiggies meeting, but I signed up for the list with > >> the intent to start. I missed the last BayPiggies meeting because I couldn't > >> arrange a ride down there in time, and this would definitely make it easier. > >> I'm in Berkeley and I don't drive. > >> > >> +1 San Bruno. > >> > >> On Tue, Jun 24, 2008 at 1:51 PM, Matt Good wrote: > >>> > >>> How would you feel about having one of the upcoming meetings in San Bruno > >>> at the new YouTube office? I've had a couple people ask me about this and > >>> it seems like it might make the meeting more accessible to people living in > >>> SF that have a harder time getting down to Mountain View. The office is a > >>> 15-20 minute walk from the San Bruno BART and there may be a few generous > >>> individuals willing to shuttle some people over as well. Plus it'd be > >>> extremely convenient for our Pythonista neighbors across the street at > >>> IronPort. > >>> > >>> -- Matt > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> Baypiggies mailing list > >>> Baypiggies at python.org > >>> To change your subscription options or unsubscribe: > >>> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies > >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Baypiggies mailing list > >> Baypiggies at python.org > >> To change your subscription options or unsubscribe: > >> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Baypiggies mailing list > > Baypiggies at python.org > > To change your subscription options or unsubscribe: > > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies > > > _______________________________________________ > Baypiggies mailing list > Baypiggies at python.org > To change your subscription options or unsubscribe: > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies -- Niall O'Higgins P2P Research http://p2presearch.com http://niallohiggins.com From max at theslimmers.net Wed Jun 25 01:27:21 2008 From: max at theslimmers.net (Max Slimmer) Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 16:27:21 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] hold a meeting at YouTube in San Bruno? In-Reply-To: <99699B5B-FDD8-405E-9EC7-C7EA9432166F@matt-good.net> References: <99699B5B-FDD8-405E-9EC7-C7EA9432166F@matt-good.net> Message-ID: <486182D9.9050502@theslimmers.net> +1 A meeting place easier (as long as it is public transit and or bicycle accessible) to get to from SF would be good for me. I commute from Sonoma Co (not daily, but stay in SF) and normally commute on the bus, to go to Google meeting means finding a ride or driving down, dealing with parking ... max Matt Good wrote: > How would you feel about having one of the upcoming meetings in San > Bruno at the new YouTube office? I've had a couple people ask me > about this and it seems like it might make the meeting more accessible > to people living in SF that have a harder time getting down to > Mountain View. The office is a 15-20 minute walk from the San Bruno > BART and there may be a few generous individuals willing to shuttle > some people over as well. Plus it'd be extremely convenient for our > Pythonista neighbors across the street at IronPort. > > -- Matt > _______________________________________________ > Baypiggies mailing list > Baypiggies at python.org > To change your subscription options or unsubscribe: > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies > From annaraven at gmail.com Wed Jun 25 01:53:29 2008 From: annaraven at gmail.com (Anna Ravenscroft) Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 16:53:29 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] hold a meeting at YouTube in San Bruno? In-Reply-To: <8249c4ac0806241459x1e5bc893ufdad106ef332fa70@mail.gmail.com> References: <99699B5B-FDD8-405E-9EC7-C7EA9432166F@matt-good.net> <8249c4ac0806241459x1e5bc893ufdad106ef332fa70@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Given that it used to alternate, I'm +0. Further from us, but possible. Carpooling is definitely a good thing. -- cordially, Anna -- Walking through the water. Trying to get across. Just like everybody else. From aleax at google.com Wed Jun 25 02:01:41 2008 From: aleax at google.com (Alex Martelli) Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 17:01:41 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] hold a meeting at YouTube in San Bruno? In-Reply-To: <8540148a0806241621w11a44e6bu743ca48702dc000e@mail.gmail.com> References: <99699B5B-FDD8-405E-9EC7-C7EA9432166F@matt-good.net> <20080624215931.GB9668@unworkable.org> <336461CBD5DD254491155461534409FA010948C0@MOU1WNEXMB14.vcorp.ad.vrsn.com> <8540148a0806241621w11a44e6bu743ca48702dc000e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <55dc209b0806241701t7fc00be7n84547d878e642f99@mail.gmail.com> On Tue, Jun 24, 2008 at 4:21 PM, William Deegan wrote: > Greetings, > > Creative option #2... > Does Google/Youtube have large video conferenced rooms available? Yes we do, if we can find Google volunteers in each location -- not sure about the situation at YouTube, but down here in MTV videoconferencing is enabled in each of the rooms Baypiggies has met over the years (Seville, Tunis, Paramaribo, &c). I suspect the San Francisco Google office is similarly well placed in this respect -- if, again, we can find a SF googlers to volunteer for hosting that site's meeting. > Perhaps we could have a multi-location baypiggies meeting every once in a > while? Sure -- hey, once Guido and I spoke with a Python user group meeting in Belo Horizonte, Brazil -- at the Google office there, of course, and we were videoconferencing in from Mountain View. With or w/o VC, I think it would be great for Baypiggies to meet farther North (and even East maybe) at least once in a while; selfishly speaking, I do of course appreciate the convenience of having the meetings here, but it does seem quite unfair to Pythonistas living much farther North or East -- under the assumption that some such Pythonistas WILL volunteer to host the meeting of course (be it at some Google office[s] or elsewhere)... if there are no such volunteers then at least I won't feel unfair or selfish for the MTV meetings any more;-). Alex From sfseth at gmail.com Wed Jun 25 02:02:37 2008 From: sfseth at gmail.com (Seth Friedman) Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 17:02:37 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] hold a meeting at YouTube in San Bruno? In-Reply-To: <486182D9.9050502@theslimmers.net> References: <99699B5B-FDD8-405E-9EC7-C7EA9432166F@matt-good.net> <486182D9.9050502@theslimmers.net> Message-ID: <64e45fca0806241702s74c22354j68cbf74476a3e964@mail.gmail.com> +1 to both San Bruno / SF and the idea of having different meetings over time. Unless we can use Google shuttles' reverse trips after dropping their city folk off. :) I wonder if that's actually got any chance of flying. Seriously for those of us that ditched our cars, an enthusiast user group seems like an unfortunate thing to be the only thing I can't solve well enough. Longtime friend of mine works in urban planning around public transportation, and there really any isn't debate - public transportation the bay area *sucks* anytime one has to cross more than one system (and deity assist you if you've got 3 systems to contend with). Actually i'd argue traveling within any one system is egregiously difficult, spanning them more an exercise in self-torture than transportation... On Tue, Jun 24, 2008 at 4:27 PM, Max Slimmer wrote: > +1 > A meeting place easier (as long as it is public transit and or bicycle > accessible) to get to from SF would be good for me. I commute from Sonoma Co > (not daily, but stay in SF) and normally commute on the bus, to go to Google > meeting means finding a ride or driving down, dealing with parking ... > > max > > > > Matt Good wrote: > >> How would you feel about having one of the upcoming meetings in San Bruno >> at the new YouTube office? I've had a couple people ask me about this and >> it seems like it might make the meeting more accessible to people living in >> SF that have a harder time getting down to Mountain View. The office is a >> 15-20 minute walk from the San Bruno BART and there may be a few generous >> individuals willing to shuttle some people over as well. Plus it'd be >> extremely convenient for our Pythonista neighbors across the street at >> IronPort. >> >> -- Matt >> _______________________________________________ >> Baypiggies mailing list >> Baypiggies at python.org >> To change your subscription options or unsubscribe: >> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies >> >> > _______________________________________________ > Baypiggies mailing list > Baypiggies at python.org > To change your subscription options or unsubscribe: > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bdbaddog at gmail.com Wed Jun 25 02:05:34 2008 From: bdbaddog at gmail.com (William Deegan) Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 17:05:34 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] hold a meeting at YouTube in San Bruno? In-Reply-To: <55dc209b0806241701t7fc00be7n84547d878e642f99@mail.gmail.com> References: <99699B5B-FDD8-405E-9EC7-C7EA9432166F@matt-good.net> <20080624215931.GB9668@unworkable.org> <336461CBD5DD254491155461534409FA010948C0@MOU1WNEXMB14.vcorp.ad.vrsn.com> <8540148a0806241621w11a44e6bu743ca48702dc000e@mail.gmail.com> <55dc209b0806241701t7fc00be7n84547d878e642f99@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <8540148a0806241705j5484fa05uc0c65061ef8ca9a2@mail.gmail.com> On Tue, Jun 24, 2008 at 5:01 PM, Alex Martelli wrote: > On Tue, Jun 24, 2008 at 4:21 PM, William Deegan > wrote: > > Greetings, > > > > Creative option #2... > > Does Google/Youtube have large video conferenced rooms available? > > Yes we do, if we can find Google volunteers in each location -- not > sure about the situation at YouTube, but down here in MTV > videoconferencing is enabled in each of the rooms Baypiggies has met > over the years (Seville, Tunis, Paramaribo, &c). I suspect the San > Francisco Google office is similarly well placed in this respect -- > if, again, we can find a SF googlers to volunteer for hosting that > site's meeting. > > > Perhaps we could have a multi-location baypiggies meeting every once in a > > while? > > Sure -- hey, once Guido and I spoke with a Python user group meeting > in Belo Horizonte, Brazil -- at the Google office there, of course, > and we were videoconferencing in from Mountain View. > > Who knows python Googlers at youtube and SF locations? Any such people on the mailing list? If so, raise your hand. -Bill > > > > Alex > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From uak at nerp.net Wed Jun 25 02:11:56 2008 From: uak at nerp.net (Ursula A. Kallio) Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 17:11:56 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Baypiggies] hold a meeting at YouTube in San Bruno? In-Reply-To: <8540148a0806241705j5484fa05uc0c65061ef8ca9a2@mail.gmail.com> References: <99699B5B-FDD8-405E-9EC7-C7EA9432166F@matt-good.net> <20080624215931.GB9668@unworkable.org> <336461CBD5DD254491155461534409FA010948C0@MOU1WNEXMB14.vcorp.ad.vrsn.com> <8540148a0806241621w11a44e6bu743ca48702dc000e@mail.gmail.com> <55dc209b0806241701t7fc00be7n84547d878e642f99@mail.gmail.com> <8540148a0806241705j5484fa05uc0c65061ef8ca9a2@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: >>> Perhaps we could have a multi-location baypiggies meeting every once in a >>> while? Because I work in San Francisco and live in Mountain View, I get home at 7PM, at which time I need to eat dinner. If there were a meeting in SF, I would be able to attend. Or somewhere scooterable from/to CalTrain. uak From cvrebert at gmail.com Wed Jun 25 02:35:26 2008 From: cvrebert at gmail.com (Chris Rebert) Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 17:35:26 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] hold a meeting at YouTube in San Bruno? In-Reply-To: <99699B5B-FDD8-405E-9EC7-C7EA9432166F@matt-good.net> References: <99699B5B-FDD8-405E-9EC7-C7EA9432166F@matt-good.net> Message-ID: <47c890dc0806241735r1a9f81dfhdd8f5ad97824854a@mail.gmail.com> +1, but only because it's physically closer. Google has a greater coolness factor... - Chris On Tue, Jun 24, 2008 at 1:51 PM, Matt Good wrote: > How would you feel about having one of the upcoming meetings in San Bruno at > the new YouTube office? I've had a couple people ask me about this and it > seems like it might make the meeting more accessible to people living in SF > that have a harder time getting down to Mountain View. The office is a > 15-20 minute walk from the San Bruno BART and there may be a few generous > individuals willing to shuttle some people over as well. Plus it'd be > extremely convenient for our Pythonista neighbors across the street at > IronPort. > > -- Matt > _______________________________________________ > Baypiggies mailing list > Baypiggies at python.org > To change your subscription options or unsubscribe: > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies > From matt at matt-good.net Wed Jun 25 03:00:05 2008 From: matt at matt-good.net (Matt Good) Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 18:00:05 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] hold a meeting at YouTube in San Bruno? In-Reply-To: <47c890dc0806241735r1a9f81dfhdd8f5ad97824854a@mail.gmail.com> References: <99699B5B-FDD8-405E-9EC7-C7EA9432166F@matt-good.net> <47c890dc0806241735r1a9f81dfhdd8f5ad97824854a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Jun 24, 2008, at 5:35 PM, Chris Rebert wrote: > +1, but only because it's physically closer. Google has a greater > coolness factor... Well, you may want to hold judgement on that until you've seen the office, we've got a pretty cool space now too. I don't think MTV has a putting green :) -- Matt From bpalmer at gmail.com Wed Jun 25 03:07:22 2008 From: bpalmer at gmail.com (Brian Palmer) Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 18:07:22 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] hold a meeting at YouTube in San Bruno? In-Reply-To: References: <99699B5B-FDD8-405E-9EC7-C7EA9432166F@matt-good.net> <47c890dc0806241735r1a9f81dfhdd8f5ad97824854a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <847aaaf20806241807h31f6576eg258e469c3c22e585@mail.gmail.com> On Tue, Jun 24, 2008 at 6:00 PM, Matt Good wrote: > On Jun 24, 2008, at 5:35 PM, Chris Rebert wrote: > > +1, but only because it's physically closer. Google has a greater >> coolness factor... >> > > Well, you may want to hold judgement on that until you've seen the office, > we've got a pretty cool space now too. I don't think MTV has a putting > green :) > I wouldn't put it past them -- probably Tiger Woods shows up now and then to hand out advice. But +1 San Bruno anyway -- ya can't get lost in the woods in Mountain View. -brian -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jjinux at gmail.com Wed Jun 25 03:13:39 2008 From: jjinux at gmail.com (Shannon -jj Behrens) Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 18:13:39 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] hold a meeting at YouTube in San Bruno? In-Reply-To: <99699B5B-FDD8-405E-9EC7-C7EA9432166F@matt-good.net> References: <99699B5B-FDD8-405E-9EC7-C7EA9432166F@matt-good.net> Message-ID: On Tue, Jun 24, 2008 at 1:51 PM, Matt Good wrote: > How would you feel about having one of the upcoming meetings in San Bruno at > the new YouTube office? I've had a couple people ask me about this and it > seems like it might make the meeting more accessible to people living in SF > that have a harder time getting down to Mountain View. The office is a > 15-20 minute walk from the San Bruno BART and there may be a few generous > individuals willing to shuttle some people over as well. Plus it'd be > extremely convenient for our Pythonista neighbors across the street at > IronPort. Yes, please. I live in Concord. It would be a welcome break for me. -jj -- It's a walled garden, but the flowers sure are lovely! http://jjinux.blogspot.com/ From jjinux at gmail.com Wed Jun 25 03:29:14 2008 From: jjinux at gmail.com (Shannon -jj Behrens) Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 18:29:14 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Frequently Argued Objections In-Reply-To: <55dc209b0806241028qa1d1d25k2ea76fbff564d8bc@mail.gmail.com> References: <1213899453.25521.73.camel@sbrown-dev2> <85AFC048-AB0C-46DE-9036-24E2DD5BCB7E@muse.com> <4DC8EEF3-06C9-4759-9E9A-C2612A51102D@muse.com> <55dc209b0806230840l4c141346p395146e04079abde@mail.gmail.com> <0A2D2D17-4102-4BF5-B71E-30B25EE6672D@muse.com> <55dc209b0806241028qa1d1d25k2ea76fbff564d8bc@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Jun 24, 2008 at 10:28 AM, Alex Martelli wrote: > On Tue, Jun 24, 2008 at 5:03 AM, Shannon -jj Behrens wrote: >> Your post did bring up one thing I do like about Ruby. It has a more >> defined notion of class scope at class definition time. If Python had >> that, I could do something like: >> >> class B(A): >> ... >> if hasattr(B, 'foo'): >> ... >> >> That's not possible now, because B doesn't exist until the class is >> finished being defined. There are workarounds. It's not a big deal. >> I'm just saying ;) > > Why do you consider "a workaround" to code for such weird needs: > >>>> class B(object): > ... foo = 23 > ... if 'foo' in locals(): print 'foo is', foo > ... else: print 'no foo' > ... > foo is 23 > > Seems very direct to me -- the class's direct attributes are kept in > the class body's locals() while said body executes, and that's the > dict that's passed to the metaclass's __new__ (and possibly __init__) > (plus of course each base class may have more attributes). This is a > perfectly well defined and documented "notion of scope during class > definition" (even though I've never felt the need to use it within the > class body, as opposed to using it in some metaclass). What am I > missing? Thanks, Alex, I didn't know about that ;) -jj -- It's a walled garden, but the flowers sure are lovely! http://jjinux.blogspot.com/ From aleax at google.com Wed Jun 25 05:57:27 2008 From: aleax at google.com (Alex Martelli) Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 20:57:27 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Frequently Argued Objections In-Reply-To: References: <1213899453.25521.73.camel@sbrown-dev2> <85AFC048-AB0C-46DE-9036-24E2DD5BCB7E@muse.com> <4DC8EEF3-06C9-4759-9E9A-C2612A51102D@muse.com> <55dc209b0806230840l4c141346p395146e04079abde@mail.gmail.com> <0A2D2D17-4102-4BF5-B71E-30B25EE6672D@muse.com> <55dc209b0806241028qa1d1d25k2ea76fbff564d8bc@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <55dc209b0806242057v5d3d81f4vee4326f7e6810d3a@mail.gmail.com> On Tue, Jun 24, 2008 at 6:29 PM, Shannon -jj Behrens wrote: ... >> Seems very direct to me -- the class's direct attributes are kept in >> the class body's locals() while said body executes, and that's the >> dict that's passed to the metaclass's __new__ (and possibly __init__) ... > Thanks, Alex, I didn't know about that ;) Oops -- my bad, I thought everybody needing such hyper-advanced knowledge had it... but just now I notice it's one of the many "hyper-advanced snippets" that ended up edited out of the Nutshell to keep it under 800 pages -- OOPS again, sorry, my bad. Would there be interest in a Baypiggies talk on "SERIOUSLY Advanced Python"? E.g. some subset of (say...): - object creation: class statement, class body, meta-classes, __new__, and __init__ - attribute lookup mechanics and descriptor objects - introspection on objects, garbage collection, stack frames, tracebacks - Python bytecode inspection and alteration I need to prep (and deliver;-) a talk like this pretty soon for my YouTube colleagues, anyway, and it might be cool to reuse that preparation for a Baypiggies talk, IF there were enough Baypiggies people interested -- Aug or Sep, say. Feel free to "vote" not just + or - on the whole concept of a "seriously advanced Python" talk, but also on each of the specific subjects mentioned there, or add any "seriously advanced" subject I omitted. (I'm not so sure there's all that much interest on ALTERING bytecode, for example, but, I did once get a specific request about it -- while as far as I've probed right now there doesn't seem to be as much interest in advanced uses of generators as I'd have thought, which is why I didn't list that specific subject up there...). Feel free to answer either to the list or to me personally -- I'll eventually summarize to the list any responses that are directed to my personal mailbox. Thanks, Alex From adam at hupp.org Wed Jun 25 07:15:45 2008 From: adam at hupp.org (Adam Hupp) Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 22:15:45 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Frequently Argued Objections In-Reply-To: <55dc209b0806242057v5d3d81f4vee4326f7e6810d3a@mail.gmail.com> References: <1213899453.25521.73.camel@sbrown-dev2> <85AFC048-AB0C-46DE-9036-24E2DD5BCB7E@muse.com> <4DC8EEF3-06C9-4759-9E9A-C2612A51102D@muse.com> <55dc209b0806230840l4c141346p395146e04079abde@mail.gmail.com> <0A2D2D17-4102-4BF5-B71E-30B25EE6672D@muse.com> <55dc209b0806241028qa1d1d25k2ea76fbff564d8bc@mail.gmail.com> <55dc209b0806242057v5d3d81f4vee4326f7e6810d3a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <766a29bd0806242215t3fa254b3rd5da85eb456ce5ca@mail.gmail.com> On Tue, Jun 24, 2008 at 8:57 PM, Alex Martelli wrote: > Would there be interest in a Baypiggies talk on "SERIOUSLY Advanced > Python"? Oh yes, +1. I'd like to hear about object creation/metaclasses and bytecode in particular, but all would be good. -- Adam Hupp | http://hupp.org/adam/ From asheesh at asheesh.org Wed Jun 25 07:23:36 2008 From: asheesh at asheesh.org (Asheesh Laroia) Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 22:23:36 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Baypiggies] Frequently Argued Objections In-Reply-To: <55dc209b0806242057v5d3d81f4vee4326f7e6810d3a@mail.gmail.com> References: <1213899453.25521.73.camel@sbrown-dev2> <85AFC048-AB0C-46DE-9036-24E2DD5BCB7E@muse.com> <4DC8EEF3-06C9-4759-9E9A-C2612A51102D@muse.com> <55dc209b0806230840l4c141346p395146e04079abde@mail.gmail.com> <0A2D2D17-4102-4BF5-B71E-30B25EE6672D@muse.com> <55dc209b0806241028qa1d1d25k2ea76fbff564d8bc@mail.gmail.com> <55dc209b0806242057v5d3d81f4vee4326f7e6810d3a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 24 Jun 2008, Alex Martelli wrote: > Would there be interest in a Baypiggies talk on "SERIOUSLY Advanced > Python"? E.g. some subset of (say...): +1, but preference for September - I'll be out most of August at Debconf! > - object creation: class statement, class body, meta-classes, __new__, > and __init__ > - attribute lookup mechanics and descriptor objects +1, I feel there's material here I don't know. > - introspection on objects, garbage collection, stack frames, tracebacks +0, I have played with this some already. > - Python bytecode inspection and alteration SERIOUSLY PLUS ONE Bytecode alteration sounds like a really fun time. Nothing shows you know something than changing it and having it still work. I have long wanted to know more about these mysterious bytecodes my Emacs buffers inevitably become. -- Asheesh. -- Pascal is not a high-level language. -- Steven Feiner From damonmc at gmail.com Wed Jun 25 07:27:48 2008 From: damonmc at gmail.com (Damon McCormick) Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 22:27:48 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Frequently Argued Objections In-Reply-To: <55dc209b0806242057v5d3d81f4vee4326f7e6810d3a@mail.gmail.com> References: <1213899453.25521.73.camel@sbrown-dev2> <85AFC048-AB0C-46DE-9036-24E2DD5BCB7E@muse.com> <4DC8EEF3-06C9-4759-9E9A-C2612A51102D@muse.com> <55dc209b0806230840l4c141346p395146e04079abde@mail.gmail.com> <0A2D2D17-4102-4BF5-B71E-30B25EE6672D@muse.com> <55dc209b0806241028qa1d1d25k2ea76fbff564d8bc@mail.gmail.com> <55dc209b0806242057v5d3d81f4vee4326f7e6810d3a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <3cce76f60806242227i449d1137x28162dfce62ffd6@mail.gmail.com> +1 -Damon On Tue, Jun 24, 2008 at 8:57 PM, Alex Martelli wrote: > On Tue, Jun 24, 2008 at 6:29 PM, Shannon -jj Behrens > wrote: > ... > >> Seems very direct to me -- the class's direct attributes are kept in > >> the class body's locals() while said body executes, and that's the > >> dict that's passed to the metaclass's __new__ (and possibly __init__) > ... > > Thanks, Alex, I didn't know about that ;) > > Oops -- my bad, I thought everybody needing such hyper-advanced > knowledge had it... but just now I notice it's one of the many > "hyper-advanced snippets" that ended up edited out of the Nutshell to > keep it under 800 pages -- OOPS again, sorry, my bad. > > Would there be interest in a Baypiggies talk on "SERIOUSLY Advanced > Python"? E.g. some subset of (say...): > > - object creation: class statement, class body, meta-classes, __new__, > and __init__ > - attribute lookup mechanics and descriptor objects > - introspection on objects, garbage collection, stack frames, tracebacks > - Python bytecode inspection and alteration > > I need to prep (and deliver;-) a talk like this pretty soon for my > YouTube colleagues, anyway, and it might be cool to reuse that > preparation for a Baypiggies talk, IF there were enough Baypiggies > people interested -- Aug or Sep, say. Feel free to "vote" not just + > or - on the whole concept of a "seriously advanced Python" talk, but > also on each of the specific subjects mentioned there, or add any > "seriously advanced" subject I omitted. (I'm not so sure there's all > that much interest on ALTERING bytecode, for example, but, I did once > get a specific request about it -- while as far as I've probed right > now there doesn't seem to be as much interest in advanced uses of > generators as I'd have thought, which is why I didn't list that > specific subject up there...). Feel free to answer either to the list > or to me personally -- I'll eventually summarize to the list any > responses that are directed to my personal mailbox. > > > Thanks, > > Alex > _______________________________________________ > Baypiggies mailing list > Baypiggies at python.org > To change your subscription options or unsubscribe: > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jim at well.com Wed Jun 25 07:35:42 2008 From: jim at well.com (jim) Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 22:35:42 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Frequently Argued Objections In-Reply-To: <55dc209b0806242057v5d3d81f4vee4326f7e6810d3a@mail.gmail.com> References: <1213899453.25521.73.camel@sbrown-dev2> <85AFC048-AB0C-46DE-9036-24E2DD5BCB7E@muse.com> <4DC8EEF3-06C9-4759-9E9A-C2612A51102D@muse.com> <55dc209b0806230840l4c141346p395146e04079abde@mail.gmail.com> <0A2D2D17-4102-4BF5-B71E-30B25EE6672D@muse.com> <55dc209b0806241028qa1d1d25k2ea76fbff564d8bc@mail.gmail.com> <55dc209b0806242057v5d3d81f4vee4326f7e6810d3a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1214372142.13521.64.camel@ubuntu> Would there be interest in a Baypiggies talk on "SERIOUSLY Advanced > Python"? E.g. some subset of (say...): > > - object creation: class statement, class body, meta-classes, __new__, > and __init__ > - attribute lookup mechanics and descriptor objects > - introspection on objects, garbage collection, stack frames, tracebacks > - Python bytecode inspection and alteration > > > +1 also, per Alex Martelli: "My job responsibilities in the field of cluster management software push me to think all the time about the harshest and most unlikely failure modes and how best to ensure they're caught and dealt with...." i'd be interested to hear python-related details per above. and maybe not _advanced_ uses of generators but useful uses of generators that coders should consider. From jjinux at gmail.com Wed Jun 25 08:02:52 2008 From: jjinux at gmail.com (Shannon -jj Behrens) Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 23:02:52 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Frequently Argued Objections In-Reply-To: <55dc209b0806242057v5d3d81f4vee4326f7e6810d3a@mail.gmail.com> References: <1213899453.25521.73.camel@sbrown-dev2> <85AFC048-AB0C-46DE-9036-24E2DD5BCB7E@muse.com> <4DC8EEF3-06C9-4759-9E9A-C2612A51102D@muse.com> <55dc209b0806230840l4c141346p395146e04079abde@mail.gmail.com> <0A2D2D17-4102-4BF5-B71E-30B25EE6672D@muse.com> <55dc209b0806241028qa1d1d25k2ea76fbff564d8bc@mail.gmail.com> <55dc209b0806242057v5d3d81f4vee4326f7e6810d3a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Jun 24, 2008 at 8:57 PM, Alex Martelli wrote: > On Tue, Jun 24, 2008 at 6:29 PM, Shannon -jj Behrens wrote: > ... >>> Seems very direct to me -- the class's direct attributes are kept in >>> the class body's locals() while said body executes, and that's the >>> dict that's passed to the metaclass's __new__ (and possibly __init__) > ... >> Thanks, Alex, I didn't know about that ;) > > Oops -- my bad, I thought everybody needing such hyper-advanced > knowledge had it... but just now I notice it's one of the many > "hyper-advanced snippets" that ended up edited out of the Nutshell to > keep it under 800 pages -- OOPS again, sorry, my bad. > > Would there be interest in a Baypiggies talk on "SERIOUSLY Advanced > Python"? E.g. some subset of (say...): > > - object creation: class statement, class body, meta-classes, __new__, > and __init__ > - attribute lookup mechanics and descriptor objects > - introspection on objects, garbage collection, stack frames, tracebacks > - Python bytecode inspection and alteration Heck yeah! I'm actually technical editing an advanced Python book right now that covers a lot of these. However, you're such a language lawyer that I'd love to hear a talk like this from you. > I need to prep (and deliver;-) a talk like this pretty soon for my > YouTube colleagues, anyway, and it might be cool to reuse that > preparation for a Baypiggies talk, IF there were enough Baypiggies > people interested -- Aug or Sep, say. Feel free to "vote" not just + > or - on the whole concept of a "seriously advanced Python" talk, but > also on each of the specific subjects mentioned there, or add any > "seriously advanced" subject I omitted. (I'm not so sure there's all > that much interest on ALTERING bytecode, for example, but, I did once > get a specific request about it -- while as far as I've probed right > now there doesn't seem to be as much interest in advanced uses of > generators as I'd have thought, which is why I didn't list that > specific subject up there...). Feel free to answer either to the list > or to me personally -- I'll eventually summarize to the list any > responses that are directed to my personal mailbox. I wanna know all the things I don't already know ;) The one challenge is not going over peoples heads too quickly. It's probably better to focus on a few examples. Showing concrete code can often help when the subject is very new. Thanks, -jj -- It's a walled garden, but the flowers sure are lovely! http://jjinux.blogspot.com/ From jeff at drinktomi.com Wed Jun 25 08:25:53 2008 From: jeff at drinktomi.com (Jeff Younker) Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 23:25:53 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] hold a meeting at YouTube in San Bruno? In-Reply-To: <847aaaf20806241807h31f6576eg258e469c3c22e585@mail.gmail.com> References: <99699B5B-FDD8-405E-9EC7-C7EA9432166F@matt-good.net> <47c890dc0806241735r1a9f81dfhdd8f5ad97824854a@mail.gmail.com> <847aaaf20806241807h31f6576eg258e469c3c22e585@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <5E5F3371-2A89-4169-8E67-8C6F8F981DF6@drinktomi.com> +1 on San Bruno - Jeff Younker - jeff at drinktomi.com - From asheesh at asheesh.org Wed Jun 25 17:03:08 2008 From: asheesh at asheesh.org (Asheesh Laroia) Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 08:03:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Baypiggies] hold a meeting at YouTube in San Bruno? In-Reply-To: <99699B5B-FDD8-405E-9EC7-C7EA9432166F@matt-good.net> References: <99699B5B-FDD8-405E-9EC7-C7EA9432166F@matt-good.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 24 Jun 2008, Matt Good wrote: > How would you feel about having one of the upcoming meetings in San Bruno at > the new YouTube office? I've had a couple people ask me about this and it > seems like it might make the meeting more accessible to people living in SF > that have a harder time getting down to Mountain View. The office is a 15-20 > minute walk from the San Bruno BART and there may be a few generous > individuals willing to shuttle some people over as well. +1, so then (as much as carpooling is) I wouldn't have to ask for rides. -- Asheesh. -- *** NEWSFLASH *** Russian tanks steamrolling through New Jersey!!!! Details at eleven! From asheesh at asheesh.org Wed Jun 25 17:30:13 2008 From: asheesh at asheesh.org (Asheesh Laroia) Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 08:30:13 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Baypiggies] hold a meeting at YouTube in San Bruno? In-Reply-To: References: <99699B5B-FDD8-405E-9EC7-C7EA9432166F@matt-good.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 25 Jun 2008, Asheesh Laroia wrote: > +1, so then (as much as carpooling is) I wouldn't have to ask for rides. as much *fun*... Clearly too early int he day for me to be sending email. -- Asheesh. -- The clothes have no emperor. -- C. A. R. Hoare, commenting on ADA. From amax at redsymbol.net Wed Jun 25 21:14:00 2008 From: amax at redsymbol.net (Aaron Maxwell) Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 12:14:00 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Frequently Argued Objections In-Reply-To: <55dc209b0806242057v5d3d81f4vee4326f7e6810d3a@mail.gmail.com> References: <1213899453.25521.73.camel@sbrown-dev2> <55dc209b0806242057v5d3d81f4vee4326f7e6810d3a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <200806251214.01024.amax@redsymbol.net> On Tuesday 24 June 2008 08:57:27 pm Alex Martelli wrote: > Would there be interest in a Baypiggies talk on "SERIOUSLY Advanced > Python"? You bet. Especially object creation and Python bytecode arcana. Also, some discussion about what's the same/different in 2.[56] vs. 3.0. > - object creation: class statement, class body, meta-classes, __new__, > and __init__ > - attribute lookup mechanics and descriptor objects > - introspection on objects, garbage collection, stack frames, tracebacks > - Python bytecode inspection and alteration > -- Aaron Maxwell http://redsymbol.net From donnamsnow at gmail.com Wed Jun 25 22:12:35 2008 From: donnamsnow at gmail.com (Donna Snow) Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 13:12:35 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] [OT] Ideas for Plone training location? Message-ID: Hi, I just finished a week long Plone 2.5 training session at Arizona State University and I'm really interested in providing a week long session for Plone 3 (content management, skinning, basic filesystem stuff) somewhere in the Bay Area. Does anyone know of a place I could rent with space for at least 20 people? I'd probably hold the session in September. (I'm investigating possible locations on my own but wondered if anyone has experience with a particular location) Donna M. Snow, Principal C Squared Enteprises -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From alecf at flett.org Wed Jun 25 22:18:59 2008 From: alecf at flett.org (Alec Flett) Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 13:18:59 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Frequently Argued Objections In-Reply-To: <55dc209b0806242057v5d3d81f4vee4326f7e6810d3a@mail.gmail.com> References: <1213899453.25521.73.camel@sbrown-dev2> <85AFC048-AB0C-46DE-9036-24E2DD5BCB7E@muse.com> <4DC8EEF3-06C9-4759-9E9A-C2612A51102D@muse.com> <55dc209b0806230840l4c141346p395146e04079abde@mail.gmail.com> <0A2D2D17-4102-4BF5-B71E-30B25EE6672D@muse.com> <55dc209b0806241028qa1d1d25k2ea76fbff564d8bc@mail.gmail.com> <55dc209b0806242057v5d3d81f4vee4326f7e6810d3a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: +1 +1 +1 +1 On Tue, Jun 24, 2008 at 8:57 PM, Alex Martelli wrote: > On Tue, Jun 24, 2008 at 6:29 PM, Shannon -jj Behrens > wrote: > ... > >> Seems very direct to me -- the class's direct attributes are kept in > >> the class body's locals() while said body executes, and that's the > >> dict that's passed to the metaclass's __new__ (and possibly __init__) > ... > > Thanks, Alex, I didn't know about that ;) > > Oops -- my bad, I thought everybody needing such hyper-advanced > knowledge had it... but just now I notice it's one of the many > "hyper-advanced snippets" that ended up edited out of the Nutshell to > keep it under 800 pages -- OOPS again, sorry, my bad. > > Would there be interest in a Baypiggies talk on "SERIOUSLY Advanced > Python"? E.g. some subset of (say...): > > - object creation: class statement, class body, meta-classes, __new__, > and __init__ > - attribute lookup mechanics and descriptor objects > - introspection on objects, garbage collection, stack frames, tracebacks > - Python bytecode inspection and alteration > > I need to prep (and deliver;-) a talk like this pretty soon for my > YouTube colleagues, anyway, and it might be cool to reuse that > preparation for a Baypiggies talk, IF there were enough Baypiggies > people interested -- Aug or Sep, say. Feel free to "vote" not just + > or - on the whole concept of a "seriously advanced Python" talk, but > also on each of the specific subjects mentioned there, or add any > "seriously advanced" subject I omitted. (I'm not so sure there's all > that much interest on ALTERING bytecode, for example, but, I did once > get a specific request about it -- while as far as I've probed right > now there doesn't seem to be as much interest in advanced uses of > generators as I'd have thought, which is why I didn't list that > specific subject up there...). Feel free to answer either to the list > or to me personally -- I'll eventually summarize to the list any > responses that are directed to my personal mailbox. > > > Thanks, > > Alex > _______________________________________________ > Baypiggies mailing list > Baypiggies at python.org > To change your subscription options or unsubscribe: > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jim at well.com Thu Jun 26 01:43:07 2008 From: jim at well.com (jim) Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 16:43:07 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] [OT] Ideas for Plone training location? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1214437387.13521.85.camel@ubuntu> i've forgotten the business name, but they have classrooms on the third floor of the building on the southeast corner of market and new montgomery in san francisco. $1000 per day, approximately, twenty seats with dell computers loaded with windows, though the machines are rebuilt for red hat's classes. On Wed, 2008-06-25 at 13:12 -0700, Donna Snow wrote: > Hi, > > I just finished a week long Plone 2.5 training session at Arizona > State University and I'm really interested in providing a week long > session for Plone 3 (content management, skinning, basic filesystem > stuff) somewhere in the Bay Area. > > Does anyone know of a place I could rent with space for at least 20 > people? I'd probably hold the session in September. (I'm investigating > possible locations on my own but wondered if anyone has experience > with a particular location) > > Donna M. Snow, Principal > C Squared Enteprises > > > > _______________________________________________ > Baypiggies mailing list > Baypiggies at python.org > To change your subscription options or unsubscribe: > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies From cappy2112 at gmail.com Wed Jun 25 21:48:51 2008 From: cappy2112 at gmail.com (Tony Cappellini) Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 12:48:51 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Slides from Alex's talk on Callbacks Message-ID: <8249c4ac0806251248v2c3ec013q6b91119a6b490252@mail.gmail.com> I was out of town and missed the last meeting. Are there slides online from the presentation? http://us.pycon.org/2008/conference/talks/?search=Callbacks -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From aleax at google.com Thu Jun 26 02:37:59 2008 From: aleax at google.com (Alex Martelli) Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 17:37:59 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Slides from Alex's talk on Callbacks In-Reply-To: <8249c4ac0806251248v2c3ec013q6b91119a6b490252@mail.gmail.com> References: <8249c4ac0806251248v2c3ec013q6b91119a6b490252@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <55dc209b0806251737x5f66d04bpc905bb139f3520ce@mail.gmail.com> Yes, http://www.aleax.it/bayp_cback.pdf . Alex On Wed, Jun 25, 2008 at 12:48 PM, Tony Cappellini wrote: > > I was out of town and missed the last meeting. > Are there slides online from the presentation? > > http://us.pycon.org/2008/conference/talks/?search=Callbacks > > > _______________________________________________ > Baypiggies mailing list > Baypiggies at python.org > To change your subscription options or unsubscribe: > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies > From spmcinerney at hotmail.com Thu Jun 26 05:41:08 2008 From: spmcinerney at hotmail.com (Stephen McInerney) Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 20:41:08 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Frequently Argued Objections In-Reply-To: <1214372142.13521.64.camel@ubuntu> References: <1213899453.25521.73.camel@sbrown-dev2> <85AFC048-AB0C-46DE-9036-24E2DD5BCB7E@muse.com> <4DC8EEF3-06C9-4759-9E9A-C2612A51102D@muse.com> <55dc209b0806230840l4c141346p395146e04079abde@mail.gmail.com> <0A2D2D17-4102-4BF5-B71E-30B25EE6672D@muse.com> <55dc209b0806241028qa1d1d25k2ea76fbff564d8bc@mail.gmail.com> <55dc209b0806242057v5d3d81f4vee4326f7e6810d3a@mail.gmail.com> <1214372142.13521.64.camel@ubuntu> Message-ID: > also, per Alex Martelli: "My job responsibilities in the field > of cluster management software push me to think all the time > about the harshest and most unlikely failure modes and how best > to ensure they're caught and dealt with...." > i'd be interested to hear python-related details per above. +1 This is the most interesting topic to me, personally. The language-internal stuff is also very interesting. > and maybe not _advanced_ uses of generators but useful uses > of generators that coders should consider. Stephen _________________________________________________________________ Introducing Live Search cashback . It's search that pays you back! http://search.live.com/cashback/?&pkw=form=MIJAAF/publ=HMTGL/crea=introsrchcashback -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ben at groovie.org Thu Jun 26 21:52:38 2008 From: ben at groovie.org (Ben Bangert) Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2008 12:52:38 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] hold a meeting at YouTube in San Bruno? In-Reply-To: References: <99699B5B-FDD8-405E-9EC7-C7EA9432166F@matt-good.net> Message-ID: On Jun 24, 2008, at 4:03 PM, Alec Flett wrote: > +1 for purely selfish reasons... > > I live in berkeley, work in SF, and have a family. I've been to > BayPiggies I think 3 times ever purely because of I'd spend more > time travelling than at the meeting... > > For SF, and ESPECIALLY east bay folks, Google is really > inaccessible. There's no easy way to get from the caltrain station > to Google without a bike, and travel by public transport is about 2 > hours to get to Berkeley/Oakland at night after the bullet caltrains > have stopped running. And for North Bay people. I haven't been to a BayPiggies meeting in ages cause with $4.50 gas (even in a Prius), I can't justify a 90 mile drive (each way), to get down to Google. I really fail to see why there can't be a meet-up in SF on occasion, especially if it was near the Embarcadero so ppl could take the ferry in and utilize mass transit. SF is without a doubt the most centrally accessible location in the Bay Area, with the best public transit routes in and out. San Bruno is still a bit far but definitely getting closer to where I can actually see myself going every so often. Big +1 on a SF meeting. Cheers, Ben -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: smime.p7s Type: application/pkcs7-signature Size: 2507 bytes Desc: not available URL: From wescpy at gmail.com Fri Jun 27 12:08:23 2008 From: wescpy at gmail.com (wesley chun) Date: Fri, 27 Jun 2008 03:08:23 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Fwd: hold a meeting at YouTube in San Bruno? In-Reply-To: References: <99699B5B-FDD8-405E-9EC7-C7EA9432166F@matt-good.net> Message-ID: <78b3a9580806270308pb08c5d8gcfb7743145303b88@mail.gmail.com> there are a wide variety of responses as well as degree of feelings (strong or mild). let me just say that when the group originally started, it met monthly *in* san francisco. since we were the "san francisco bay area - silicon valley python users group", we had no problem moving it around whereever we could get consistent meeting places with a host, esp. down south to the valley where we had it in mountain view for awhile, and then moved slightly back up the peninsula to stanford. then we moved it to IronPort in san bruno, and then we started to alternate between there and GOOG in mtn view. finally, when your 3 hosts at IronPort left that company, it had a more permanent home at the Googleplex, which is a good place because they provide not only the meeting facilities but also the recording of talks. i had originally expressed my opinion that we should meet several times a year in the east bay for those who are out there, but that didn't gain much traction. i'm not opposed to having meetings up in san bruno again because it helps bring those folks in from marin (like ben) as well as the city and the east bay. however, i don't want to sacrifice a consistent meeting location either. since YT is also "Google," i'm sure talks up there will be recorded as well, so in general, anyone should be able to (eventually) access the actual *talk* online, so that's not the big issue -- it's for those who want to *go* to the meetings physically and be able to mingle with their Python brethen (and sistas). with gas approaching $5/gal, we should meet where the most members find it convenient, and perhaps from time-to-time, alternate the location to a *consistent* alternative location, say the middle month per quarter, or every other month, or whatever we all agree on (or not). another plug for san bruno is that it is at the crossroads of a lot of public transit (BART, CalTrain, SamTrans) as well as 101, 280, and 380 access. i hold most of my public Python training courses in san bruno because of such logistics as well as because hotels in that area generally offer free transport to/from SFO. just my $0.02, -- wesley - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - "Core Python Programming", Prentice Hall, (c)2007,2001 http://corepython.com wesley.j.chun :: wescpy-at-gmail.com python training and technical consulting cyberweb.consulting : silicon valley, ca http://cyberwebconsulting.com From jjinux at gmail.com Sat Jun 28 01:21:57 2008 From: jjinux at gmail.com (Shannon -jj Behrens) Date: Fri, 27 Jun 2008 16:21:57 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] newbie nuggets Message-ID: I was talking with a friend today, and he brought up the fact that we hadn't had a newbies night in a long time. I think that the problem with having a newbies night every year or so is that there are programmers who have to learn Python all year long. Clearly, there are training classes, but I think we could do more. I'd like to propose a slight addition to our normal meetings called "newbie nuggest". I propose that *at the beginning of each meeting*, we have a *10 minute* section devoted to newbies in which we cover one intermediate topic. It doesn't make sense to cover how to write a "for" loop every month, but it would make sense to cover something like generators. The format is that one person covers one topic. Slides are optional. Showing some code, perhaps in the Python shell, is required. I think this would be a great way to give some of the less advanced Python programmers something to contribute to BayPiggies. Even if you don't know what how to write a function decorator now, you could probably learn it well enough to talk about it for 10 minutes before the next meeting. Here are some suggested topics: * Function decorators. * List comprehensions. * Generators and generator expressions. * Function pointers and map. * Using "else" with "for", "while", and "except". * Using StringIO. * Using IPython (and installing it with an egg). * Using "try/finally" with file handles vs. using the "with" statement. * Using lambda. I think these could be short, sweet, and helpful for a decent percentage of our audience. We could probably "loop around" and cover the same topics every couple years. After all, there are always new beginners ;) Best Regards, -jj -- It's a walled garden, but the flowers sure are lovely! http://jjinux.blogspot.com/ From annaraven at gmail.com Sat Jun 28 01:30:46 2008 From: annaraven at gmail.com (Anna Ravenscroft) Date: Fri, 27 Jun 2008 16:30:46 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] newbie nuggets In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, Jun 27, 2008 at 4:21 PM, Shannon -jj Behrens wrote: > I was talking with a friend today, and he brought up the fact that we > hadn't had a newbies night in a long time. I think that the problem > with having a newbies night every year or so is that there are > programmers who have to learn Python all year long. Clearly, there > are training classes, but I think we could do more. > > I'd like to propose a slight addition to our normal meetings called > "newbie nuggest". I propose that *at the beginning of each meeting*, > we have a *10 minute* section devoted to newbies in which we cover one > intermediate topic. Or pretty basic topics (not "this is a string" but "this is the new string templating") > It doesn't make sense to cover how to write a > "for" loop every month, but it would make sense to cover something > like generators. > > The format is that one person covers one topic. Slides are optional. > Showing some code, perhaps in the Python shell, is required. I think > this would be a great way to give some of the less advanced Python > programmers something to contribute to BayPiggies. Even if you don't > know what how to write a function decorator now, you could probably > learn it well enough to talk about it for 10 minutes before the next > meeting. > > Here are some suggested topics: > > * Function decorators. > * List comprehensions. > * Generators and generator expressions. > * Function pointers and map. > * Using "else" with "for", "while", and "except". > * Using StringIO. > * Using IPython (and installing it with an egg). > * Using "try/finally" with file handles vs. using the "with" statement. > * Using lambda. > * Starting with pygame! * using datetime * using decimal * using pytz * file handling basics * string formatting/templating > I think these could be short, sweet, and helpful for a decent > percentage of our audience. +1 Great idea JJ! And I like starting the meeting with newbie-friendly stuff - so they don't have to wait through more advanced stuff to get to something they can understand. -- cordially, Anna -- Walking through the water. Trying to get across. Just like everybody else. From daryl.spitzer at gmail.com Sat Jun 28 03:10:03 2008 From: daryl.spitzer at gmail.com (Daryl Spitzer) Date: Fri, 27 Jun 2008 18:10:03 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] newbie nuggets In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: +1 I could stand to learn more about: > * Using IPython (and installing it with an egg). > * Using "try/finally" with file handles vs. using the "with" statement. And since the best way to learn something in depth is to teach it, I volunteer to present a "newbie nugget" (good name) on these. -- Daryl On Fri, Jun 27, 2008 at 4:30 PM, Anna Ravenscroft wrote: > On Fri, Jun 27, 2008 at 4:21 PM, Shannon -jj Behrens wrote: >> I was talking with a friend today, and he brought up the fact that we >> hadn't had a newbies night in a long time. I think that the problem >> with having a newbies night every year or so is that there are >> programmers who have to learn Python all year long. Clearly, there >> are training classes, but I think we could do more. >> >> I'd like to propose a slight addition to our normal meetings called >> "newbie nuggest". I propose that *at the beginning of each meeting*, >> we have a *10 minute* section devoted to newbies in which we cover one >> intermediate topic. > > Or pretty basic topics (not "this is a string" but "this is the new > string templating") > >> It doesn't make sense to cover how to write a >> "for" loop every month, but it would make sense to cover something >> like generators. >> >> The format is that one person covers one topic. Slides are optional. >> Showing some code, perhaps in the Python shell, is required. I think >> this would be a great way to give some of the less advanced Python >> programmers something to contribute to BayPiggies. Even if you don't >> know what how to write a function decorator now, you could probably >> learn it well enough to talk about it for 10 minutes before the next >> meeting. >> >> Here are some suggested topics: >> >> * Function decorators. >> * List comprehensions. >> * Generators and generator expressions. >> * Function pointers and map. >> * Using "else" with "for", "while", and "except". >> * Using StringIO. >> * Using IPython (and installing it with an egg). >> * Using "try/finally" with file handles vs. using the "with" statement. >> * Using lambda. >> > * Starting with pygame! > * using datetime > * using decimal > * using pytz > * file handling basics > * string formatting/templating > >> I think these could be short, sweet, and helpful for a decent >> percentage of our audience. > > +1 > Great idea JJ! And I like starting the meeting with newbie-friendly > stuff - so they don't have to wait through more advanced stuff to get > to something they can understand. > > -- > cordially, > Anna > -- > Walking through the water. Trying to get across. > Just like everybody else. > _______________________________________________ > Baypiggies mailing list > Baypiggies at python.org > To change your subscription options or unsubscribe: > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies > From jjinux at gmail.com Sat Jun 28 13:05:09 2008 From: jjinux at gmail.com (Shannon -jj Behrens) Date: Sat, 28 Jun 2008 04:05:09 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Fwd: hold a meeting at YouTube in San Bruno? In-Reply-To: <78b3a9580806270308pb08c5d8gcfb7743145303b88@mail.gmail.com> References: <99699B5B-FDD8-405E-9EC7-C7EA9432166F@matt-good.net> <78b3a9580806270308pb08c5d8gcfb7743145303b88@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: I think it's clear from the responses that there's interest. I was particularly moved by the SuperHappyDevHouse argument that trying out a new location will result in new attendees like Ben Bangert. The public transit argument is also very good. Why don't we try it for a month? If we get less than 30 attendees, we'll know it didn't work out. We'll just need to make sure to announce a couple times before the meeting that we're trying a new location. By the way, in my experience, clear procedures for parking are a must whenever you try a new location. -jj -- It's a walled garden, but the flowers sure are lovely! http://jjinux.blogspot.com/ From eric at ericwalstad.com Sat Jun 28 15:10:14 2008 From: eric at ericwalstad.com (Eric Walstad) Date: Sat, 28 Jun 2008 15:10:14 +0200 Subject: [Baypiggies] hold a meeting at YouTube in San Bruno? In-Reply-To: References: <99699B5B-FDD8-405E-9EC7-C7EA9432166F@matt-good.net> Message-ID: On Thu, Jun 26, 2008 at 9:52 PM, Ben Bangert wrote: >SF is without a doubt the > most centrally accessible location in the Bay Area, with the best public > transit routes in and out. It seems Google is open to hosting the meetings. There are Google offices in downtown SF. Are there any Googlefolk listening that can comment on hosting a meeting in downtown SF (where they had the recent AppEngine hack-a-thon, perhaps)? Eric. PS, Thanks for hosting the meetings, Google! From aahz at pythoncraft.com Sat Jun 28 21:08:02 2008 From: aahz at pythoncraft.com (Aahz) Date: Sat, 28 Jun 2008 12:08:02 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] OSCON discount code Message-ID: <20080628190802.GA23525@panix.com> If you're going to OSCON and haven't yet registered, you may use the following code to get a 15% discount: os08pgm -- Aahz (aahz at pythoncraft.com) <*> http://www.pythoncraft.com/ "as long as we like the same operating system, things are cool." --piranha From spmcinerney at hotmail.com Sat Jun 28 22:06:38 2008 From: spmcinerney at hotmail.com (Stephen McInerney) Date: Sat, 28 Jun 2008 13:06:38 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Scientific Python meetup in Berkeley In-Reply-To: References: <99699B5B-FDD8-405E-9EC7-C7EA9432166F@matt-good.net> <78b3a9580806270308pb08c5d8gcfb7743145303b88@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: FYI there is also a cluster of Scientific Python users in Berkeley. Jarrod was interested in organizing a monthly meeting. I would probably carpool to that if it's at a reasonable time and day for me. Stephen _________________________________________________________________ Earn cashback on your purchases with Live Search - the search that pays you back! http://search.live.com/cashback/?&pkw=form=MIJAAF/publ=HMTGL/crea=earncashback -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wescpy at gmail.com Sat Jun 28 22:13:08 2008 From: wescpy at gmail.com (wesley chun) Date: Sat, 28 Jun 2008 13:13:08 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] [OT] Ideas for Plone training location? In-Reply-To: <1214437387.13521.85.camel@ubuntu> References: <1214437387.13521.85.camel@ubuntu> Message-ID: <78b3a9580806281313o6ed7d4f9tbebae6b6a78369a4@mail.gmail.com> > > Does anyone know of a place I could rent with space for at least 20 > > people? I'd probably hold the session in September. (I'm investigating > > possible locations on my own but wondered if anyone has experience > > with a particular location) donna, as a trainer myself, i'm aware of various places to hold technical sessions. pls write me off-list and discuss your needs, a real classroom or a hotel conf room, do you need computers with monitors, an OS already installed -- what OS, what version of Python (if any), and/or Plone, other software, the number of people expected, do you need a Kinkos close-by for material duplication, should it have a free shuttle to/from the airport, is providing food and drinks an option, your budget, etc. thx, -- wesley - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - "Core Python Programming", Prentice Hall, (c)2007,2001 http://corepython.com wesley.j.chun :: wescpy-at-gmail.com python training and technical consulting cyberweb.consulting : silicon valley, ca http://cyberwebconsulting.com From donnamsnow at gmail.com Sat Jun 28 22:40:22 2008 From: donnamsnow at gmail.com (Donna Snow) Date: Sat, 28 Jun 2008 13:40:22 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] [OT] Ideas for Plone training location? In-Reply-To: <78b3a9580806281313o6ed7d4f9tbebae6b6a78369a4@mail.gmail.com> References: <1214437387.13521.85.camel@ubuntu> <78b3a9580806281313o6ed7d4f9tbebae6b6a78369a4@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi Wesley, I'll message you offlist..but I wanted to respond onlist to address a couple things I'm considering. Has anyone taken a technical course online? Did you find it as satisfactory (or learn as much) as an in-person? What I'm thinking is that with gas being so expensive (and therefore travel) that a well organized online training session might be a better alternative? (just thinking out loud). My only concern would be the chance for more technical issues on the user side and the inability to figure out what the user is doing wrong and help them through it. The session would be less expensive (no room rental, no transportation. no provision of food..etc) but does an online session seem less valuable than in person? Is it taken as seriously? Donna M. Snow On Sat, Jun 28, 2008 at 1:13 PM, wesley chun wrote: > > > Does anyone know of a place I could rent with space for at least 20 > > > people? I'd probably hold the session in September. (I'm investigating > > > possible locations on my own but wondered if anyone has experience > > > with a particular location) > > donna, > > as a trainer myself, i'm aware of various places to hold technical > sessions. pls write me off-list and discuss your needs, a real > classroom or a hotel conf room, do you need computers with monitors, > an OS already installed -- what OS, what version of Python (if any), > and/or Plone, other software, the number of people expected, do you > need a Kinkos close-by for material duplication, should it have a free > shuttle to/from the airport, is providing food and drinks an option, > your budget, etc. > > thx, > -- wesley > - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - > "Core Python Programming", Prentice Hall, (c)2007,2001 > http://corepython.com > > wesley.j.chun :: wescpy-at-gmail.com > python training and technical consulting > cyberweb.consulting : silicon valley, ca > http://cyberwebconsulting.com > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From n8pease at yahoo.com Sat Jun 28 22:56:17 2008 From: n8pease at yahoo.com (Nathan Pease) Date: Sat, 28 Jun 2008 13:56:17 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] [OT] Ideas for Plone training location? In-Reply-To: References: <1214437387.13521.85.camel@ubuntu> <78b3a9580806281313o6ed7d4f9tbebae6b6a78369a4@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <65ECD5DD-6FE9-4B2F-BBC0-940E3AA442B9@yahoo.com> I have taken technical courses online: I started working for my current employer in QA with no programming experience and have worked my way into software engineering. As part of that process I took 3 online classes in C++ thru foothill college (they were each one quarter, about 3 months, long). It worked really well for me. The "lectures" were just web pages to read, there was a book we worked out of and there were weekly assignments that were to be turned in. The most important part (arguably the part I paid for) was the user forums, where we could talk about the current coursework and get help from the instructor, and eachother. If you set up a similar thing that was some number of weeks long and included forums for help with specific technical issues or questions, I think it could work quite well. nate On Jun 28, 2008, at 1:40 PM, Donna Snow wrote: > Hi Wesley, > > I'll message you offlist..but I wanted to respond onlist to address > a couple things I'm considering. > > Has anyone taken a technical course online? Did you find it as > satisfactory (or learn as much) as an in-person? > > What I'm thinking is that with gas being so expensive (and therefore > travel) that a well organized online training session might be a > better alternative? (just thinking out loud). My only concern would > be the chance for more technical issues on the user side and the > inability to figure out what the user is doing wrong and help them > through it. The session would be less expensive (no room rental, no > transportation. no provision of food..etc) but does an online > session seem less valuable than in person? Is it taken as seriously? > > Donna M. Snow > > On Sat, Jun 28, 2008 at 1:13 PM, wesley chun wrote: > > > Does anyone know of a place I could rent with space for at > least 20 > > > people? I'd probably hold the session in September. (I'm > investigating > > > possible locations on my own but wondered if anyone has > experience > > > with a particular location) > > donna, > > as a trainer myself, i'm aware of various places to hold technical > sessions. pls write me off-list and discuss your needs, a real > classroom or a hotel conf room, do you need computers with monitors, > an OS already installed -- what OS, what version of Python (if any), > and/or Plone, other software, the number of people expected, do you > need a Kinkos close-by for material duplication, should it have a free > shuttle to/from the airport, is providing food and drinks an option, > your budget, etc. > > thx, > -- wesley > - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - > "Core Python Programming", Prentice Hall, (c)2007,2001 > http://corepython.com > > wesley.j.chun :: wescpy-at-gmail.com > python training and technical consulting > cyberweb.consulting : silicon valley, ca > http://cyberwebconsulting.com > > _______________________________________________ > Baypiggies mailing list > Baypiggies at python.org > To change your subscription options or unsubscribe: > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From fperez.net at gmail.com Sat Jun 28 23:11:46 2008 From: fperez.net at gmail.com (Fernando Perez) Date: Sat, 28 Jun 2008 14:11:46 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Scientific Python meetup in Berkeley In-Reply-To: References: <99699B5B-FDD8-405E-9EC7-C7EA9432166F@matt-good.net> <78b3a9580806270308pb08c5d8gcfb7743145303b88@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Sat, Jun 28, 2008 at 1:06 PM, Stephen McInerney wrote: > FYI there is also a cluster of Scientific Python users in Berkeley. > Jarrod was interested in organizing a monthly meeting. https://cirl.berkeley.edu/view/Py4Science We didn't meet this past week, but there will be a meeting this coming week on Cython (continuing). For the three weeks after that it's not clear what we'll do, since I'll be traveling all that time, so we may put things on hold for a few weeks (so far I've been doing most of the presentations, though anyone is welcome to help, it's just that we're building a bit of a user base first). Cheers, f ps - I think someone requested info about ipython; I'd be happy to give a talk on the subject a bit later. From cappy2112 at gmail.com Sun Jun 29 00:04:27 2008 From: cappy2112 at gmail.com (cappy2112 at gmail.com) Date: Sat, 28 Jun 2008 15:04:27 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Scientific Python meetup in Berkeley In-Reply-To: References: <99699B5B-FDD8-405E-9EC7-C7EA9432166F@matt-good.net> <78b3a9580806270308pb08c5d8gcfb7743145303b88@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <8249c4ac0806281504k456a54f1jcd85fe67264d189a@mail.gmail.com> >>ps - I think someone requested info about ipython; I'd be happy to >>give a talk on the subject a bit later. Looking forward to this! On 6/28/08, Fernando Perez wrote: > On Sat, Jun 28, 2008 at 1:06 PM, Stephen McInerney > wrote: >> FYI there is also a cluster of Scientific Python users in Berkeley. >> Jarrod was interested in organizing a monthly meeting. > > https://cirl.berkeley.edu/view/Py4Science > > We didn't meet this past week, but there will be a meeting this coming > week on Cython (continuing). For the three weeks after that it's not > clear what we'll do, since I'll be traveling all that time, so we may > put things on hold for a few weeks (so far I've been doing most of the > presentations, though anyone is welcome to help, it's just that we're > building a bit of a user base first). > > Cheers, > > f > > ps - I think someone requested info about ipython; I'd be happy to > give a talk on the subject a bit later. > _______________________________________________ > Baypiggies mailing list > Baypiggies at python.org > To change your subscription options or unsubscribe: > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies > From mac at Wireless.Com Sun Jun 29 00:16:24 2008 From: mac at Wireless.Com (Mike Cheponis) Date: Sat, 28 Jun 2008 15:16:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Baypiggies] Fwd: hold a meeting at YouTube in San Bruno? In-Reply-To: References: <99699B5B-FDD8-405E-9EC7-C7EA9432166F@matt-good.net> <78b3a9580806270308pb08c5d8gcfb7743145303b88@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: 1) I think we should keep the monthly meetings at Google. Many of our famous members show up there (Wesley, Alex, Anna, Guido, etc, etc) We've established a good-sized group now. 2) Having a north bay meeting sounds like a great idea IF it is in ADDITION to the regular Google monthly meeting. Such a meeting could be interstitial with the existing meetings - for example, on the 4th Thursday of the month. Seems like everybody would be happy with such an arrangement. And, goodness knows, there's plenty of Python Knowledge that could easily fill the programs of such meetings! -Mike From jim at well.com Sun Jun 29 02:32:53 2008 From: jim at well.com (jim) Date: Sat, 28 Jun 2008 17:32:53 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Scientific Python meetup in Berkeley In-Reply-To: References: <99699B5B-FDD8-405E-9EC7-C7EA9432166F@matt-good.net> <78b3a9580806270308pb08c5d8gcfb7743145303b88@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1214699573.13521.169.camel@ubuntu> i'm the speaker-getter for bayPIGgies, mainly try to get speakers and coordinate scheduling talks for bayPIGgies meetings. there's interest in a SciPy and/or NumPy talk as well as in an IPython talk. could you respond, possibly off-list, with dates you might be able to give a talk and/or names of people you believe would be able to give talks on those (or other) topics? grateful in advance, jim stockford On Sat, 2008-06-28 at 14:11 -0700, Fernando Perez wrote: > On Sat, Jun 28, 2008 at 1:06 PM, Stephen McInerney > wrote: > > FYI there is also a cluster of Scientific Python users in Berkeley. > > Jarrod was interested in organizing a monthly meeting. > > https://cirl.berkeley.edu/view/Py4Science > > We didn't meet this past week, but there will be a meeting this coming > week on Cython (continuing). For the three weeks after that it's not > clear what we'll do, since I'll be traveling all that time, so we may > put things on hold for a few weeks (so far I've been doing most of the > presentations, though anyone is welcome to help, it's just that we're > building a bit of a user base first). > > Cheers, > > f > > ps - I think someone requested info about ipython; I'd be happy to > give a talk on the subject a bit later. > _______________________________________________ > Baypiggies mailing list > Baypiggies at python.org > To change your subscription options or unsubscribe: > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies > From jim at well.com Sun Jun 29 02:34:17 2008 From: jim at well.com (jim) Date: Sat, 28 Jun 2008 17:34:17 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Fwd: hold a meeting at YouTube in San Bruno? In-Reply-To: References: <99699B5B-FDD8-405E-9EC7-C7EA9432166F@matt-good.net> <78b3a9580806270308pb08c5d8gcfb7743145303b88@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1214699657.13521.171.camel@ubuntu> mike's proposal sounds somewhat like a second, north or north-east bay python interest group. On Sat, 2008-06-28 at 15:16 -0700, Mike Cheponis wrote: > 1) I think we should keep the monthly meetings at Google. Many of our famous members show up there (Wesley, Alex, Anna, Guido, etc, etc) We've established a good-sized group now. > > 2) Having a north bay meeting sounds like a great idea IF it is in ADDITION to the regular Google monthly meeting. Such a meeting could be interstitial with the existing meetings - for example, on the 4th Thursday of the month. > > Seems like everybody would be happy with such an arrangement. And, goodness knows, there's plenty of Python Knowledge that could easily fill the programs of such meetings! > > -Mike > _______________________________________________ > Baypiggies mailing list > Baypiggies at python.org > To change your subscription options or unsubscribe: > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies > From aahz at pythoncraft.com Sun Jun 29 02:44:28 2008 From: aahz at pythoncraft.com (Aahz) Date: Sat, 28 Jun 2008 17:44:28 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Fwd: hold a meeting at YouTube in San Bruno? In-Reply-To: References: <99699B5B-FDD8-405E-9EC7-C7EA9432166F@matt-good.net> <78b3a9580806270308pb08c5d8gcfb7743145303b88@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20080629004428.GA24073@panix.com> On Sat, Jun 28, 2008, Mike Cheponis wrote: > > 1) I think we should keep the monthly meetings at Google. Many of our > famous members show up there (Wesley, Alex, Anna, Guido, etc, etc) We've > established a good-sized group now. > > 2) Having a north bay meeting sounds like a great idea IF it is in ADDITION > to the regular Google monthly meeting. Such a meeting could be > interstitial with the existing meetings - for example, on the 4th Thursday > of the month. > > Seems like everybody would be happy with such an arrangement. Well, no. There are people who would like to attend BayPIGgies meetings regardless of where they are. I'm strongly opposed to splintering the physical meeting, not until we have enough people to sustain separate groups with multiple meetings per month, and I don't think we do while maintaining the community. Moreover, there's something that seems really wrong to me about using the "famous members" as an excuse. Finally, I haven't seen a lot of people arguing for a north bay meeting. Mostly people are arguing for east bay, SF, and north peninsula. -- Aahz (aahz at pythoncraft.com) <*> http://www.pythoncraft.com/ "as long as we like the same operating system, things are cool." --piranha From cappy2112 at gmail.com Sun Jun 29 04:21:21 2008 From: cappy2112 at gmail.com (Tony Cappellini) Date: Sat, 28 Jun 2008 19:21:21 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Fwd: hold a meeting at YouTube in San Bruno? In-Reply-To: <20080629004428.GA24073@panix.com> References: <99699B5B-FDD8-405E-9EC7-C7EA9432166F@matt-good.net> <78b3a9580806270308pb08c5d8gcfb7743145303b88@mail.gmail.com> <20080629004428.GA24073@panix.com> Message-ID: <8249c4ac0806281921k6c2b0c68o854983ae01b7cf24@mail.gmail.com> >>regardless of where they are. I'm strongly opposed to splintering theDid we not already do this with the meetings at Ironport? Did those metings not last until Ironport laid off the people who were coordinating our meetings? I'm a bit fuzzy on the details- former Ironport people please speak up. On the other hand, if another meeting place does start up, it's probably fair to ask the people attending those meetings to find speakers and organize the presentation for those meetings. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jim at well.com Sun Jun 29 04:23:45 2008 From: jim at well.com (jim) Date: Sat, 28 Jun 2008 19:23:45 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] [OT] Ideas for Plone training location? In-Reply-To: References: <1214437387.13521.85.camel@ubuntu> <78b3a9580806281313o6ed7d4f9tbebae6b6a78369a4@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1214706225.21813.5.camel@ubuntu> I've tried to participate and also to lead, mostly without much success. i'm very interested in an online Python course and have made a small start on such. for a look at a seemingly successful attempt, check out http://www.nylxs.com/ below is a clip from the conspire mailing list (with permission of its author), which gives a feel for the nylxs community: --------------------------- While we have some summer off time I'm going to lead 3 workshops for beginners through the NYLXS Mailing List at hangout at nylxs.com We will be doing Introduction to C Programming using the book C Programming: A Modren Approach by K.N.King I'll be developing C programming notes on line as we go. This book is fairly intensive Also we will do Perl Porgramming using the Perl Programming Notes of NYLXS on http://www.nylxs.com/docs/perlcourse/ I'll be reediting these notes as we go, but they are fairly complete as they are Finally, we will be learning C++ with the text C++ Primer Stanley Lippman and Josee Lajoie - I have the 3rd addition I took C++ at NYU but frankly have not nearly enough background, so I'll be making notes and learning along with everyone else. Anyone who wants to join is welcome to. NYLXS Accounts are available on the server for a NYLXS membership fee of $45 (and then you need to do volunteer hours to become a voting member). We will also use the NYLXS irc channel to meet on line weekly as announced The irc channel is on freenode #nylxs The mailing list itself is published on the NYLXS site. Hope you join us! --------------------------- On Sat, 2008-06-28 at 13:40 -0700, Donna Snow wrote: > Hi Wesley, > > I'll message you offlist..but I wanted to respond onlist to address a > couple things I'm considering. > > Has anyone taken a technical course online? Did you find it as > satisfactory (or learn as much) as an in-person? > > What I'm thinking is that with gas being so expensive (and therefore > travel) that a well organized online training session might be a > better alternative? (just thinking out loud). My only concern would be > the chance for more technical issues on the user side and the > inability to figure out what the user is doing wrong and help them > through it. The session would be less expensive (no room rental, no > transportation. no provision of food..etc) but does an online session > seem less valuable than in person? Is it taken as seriously? > > Donna M. Snow > > On Sat, Jun 28, 2008 at 1:13 PM, wesley chun wrote: > > > Does anyone know of a place I could rent with space for > at least 20 > > > people? I'd probably hold the session in September. (I'm > investigating > > > possible locations on my own but wondered if anyone has > experience > > > with a particular location) > > > donna, > > as a trainer myself, i'm aware of various places to hold > technical > sessions. pls write me off-list and discuss your needs, a real > classroom or a hotel conf room, do you need computers with > monitors, > an OS already installed -- what OS, what version of Python (if > any), > and/or Plone, other software, the number of people expected, > do you > need a Kinkos close-by for material duplication, should it > have a free > shuttle to/from the airport, is providing food and drinks an > option, > your budget, etc. > > thx, > -- wesley > - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - > "Core Python Programming", Prentice Hall, (c)2007,2001 > http://corepython.com > > wesley.j.chun :: wescpy-at-gmail.com > python training and technical consulting > cyberweb.consulting : silicon valley, ca > http://cyberwebconsulting.com > > _______________________________________________ > Baypiggies mailing list > Baypiggies at python.org > To change your subscription options or unsubscribe: > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies From john_re at fastmail.us Sun Jun 29 08:08:08 2008 From: john_re at fastmail.us (john_re) Date: Sat, 28 Jun 2008 23:08:08 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Python video suggestion for July 5 Berkeley & Americas' TIPP meeting? Message-ID: <1214719688.20145.1260914077@webmail.messagingengine.com> Hi Pythonistas- What beginning (or maybe intermediate??) python video(s) are available for watching over the internet, & which might be best?? For use on July 5 Saturday. ----- Backstory: Saturday June 7 was the successful first meeting of a series of monthly meetings I'm working to organize. With basically one day's advance notice, 14 people came for the meeting, including a BayPiggies member from SanFran who saw the announcement I made about that meeting here on the BayPiggies mailin list. As I announced at the BayPiggies meeting two weeks ago, Sat July 5 (one week from today, probably 10a-6p, hopefully on the UCB campus, free, come for as much or little as you wish) is the next meeting I'm working on. (Note: I'm doing this as a part time volunteer effort for the community when I've got lots of other responsibilities for my time.) I'm currently calling this the GNU(Linux)/BSD Talks Installfest Potluck & ProgrammingParty - TIPP. Fot this upcoming meeting I'll be inviting LUGs & other groups around the Americas to hold simultaneous events, and receive streaming (&/or downloaded) videos to watch simultaneous with us in Berkeley. Then, everone has viewed the same content & we can all sit around on IRC or VOIP & talk & have real "beverages of your choice" & have a great ol' time. Now, for this meeting, since this is the first Americas' wide meeting, & this is all being organized by me on a "best efforts, nothing guaranteed, stone soup, self reliant, you make your own luck" kind of basis, with very short notice, the stated goal is really merely to hold simultaneous events. As far as my personal goals go, if one other person somewher in the world gets on IRC with us at Berkeley, the meeting is a success. But, my plan is to aim high. Hence the attempt to actually get video content out for people to watch. Now, I've got about 6 videos I recorded, 5 this past year, that people might be interested in: 1 RMS on GNU, 2 RMS on Copyright, 3 VOIP, 4 EFF, 5 DotOrgs 60 second videos, 6 Bjorne Stroustrup C++ from about 5 years ago. This event, will have 5 parallel events: Talks, Installfest, Potluck, ProgrammingParty, & sitting around chatting (could be considered part of the potluck). [Potluck will also have the alternative of "bring $5 & we'll order some pizzas", for attendees who don't want to cook or bring some food.] So, for the talks, since this is the first meeting, rather than try to get speakers arranged for this meeting, Ithought it would be easier to just video stream (or down/up load) previously recorded talk videos for the other sites. Now, I envision this series of monthly events as having topic time slots for talks/videos, based on topics like: GNU(Linux)/BSD Distrubutions, Programming Languages, System Administration, WebDevelopment, ApplicationSw, etc. So, for this month, for the programming language topic, I originally thought I'd use my Bjorne Stroustrup C++ talk recorded about 5 years ago at the C/C++ group in SanJose. Then I got thinking - well, I'm personally more interested in Python, there's lots of comments about having python meetings outside of MtView, Python is probably more of a hot topic than c++, the Bjorne video is 5 years old, - so, why don't I try to find a recent Python talk that has a video? So, I got thinking: "I think some of the BayPiggies talks were video recorded - perhaps we all in the Americas could use the "Programming Languages" time slot to watch one of those python videos. Or, some other python talk available for download or streaming from some other entity. End of backstory. ----- So - anyone know any Python video we all could watch? I'm thinking for this "getting the Americas meetings set up first meeting" the simplest, most basic & introductory talk would be best. And, if it was already on some video streaming or downloading site, so I don't have to do any work to make it available to the simultaneous meeting groups, so much the better. Suggestions? ---- PS: I'll be sending out announcements/invitations for this event to group mailing lists in a day or so. I'd like to get info about a Python video to use, so I can include that info in the announcement. From ben at groovie.org Sun Jun 29 08:38:27 2008 From: ben at groovie.org (Ben Bangert) Date: Sat, 28 Jun 2008 23:38:27 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Fwd: hold a meeting at YouTube in San Bruno? In-Reply-To: <20080629004428.GA24073@panix.com> References: <99699B5B-FDD8-405E-9EC7-C7EA9432166F@matt-good.net> <78b3a9580806270308pb08c5d8gcfb7743145303b88@mail.gmail.com> <20080629004428.GA24073@panix.com> Message-ID: <57FB7C2B-9D82-4EDC-AD01-8E6AC2523215@groovie.org> On Jun 28, 2008, at 5:44 PM, Aahz wrote: > Finally, I haven't seen a lot of people arguing for a north bay > meeting. > Mostly people are arguing for east bay, SF, and north peninsula I'm in the North Bay, and I don't think there's a lot of people up here so it seems silly to ask ppl to drive up. I'd rather head down to SF myself. I should note that people don't speak up very much because I think anyone else in the North Bay has either given up attending BayPiggies meetings, or attempts to make it down. They don't hang around and hope (like I apparently have), that the issue will come up again for discussion. The IronPort one wasn't really that helpful, since from the North Bay, you have to go through all of SF (easily a solid 30 mins on some nights), and then some... at which point Google in Mountain View seems like only a wee bit further. I heard Google now has an office in SF, is someone there willing to host it? There's also an O'Reilly office near the Embarcadero, I'm not sure entirely how many people but I can check. There's ferries going into the Embarcadero from all over, as well as BART and SF Muni, which makes it significantly easier to get to than IronPort was from the North. Before I saw this thread, I had more or less given up ever attending another BayPiggies meeting and was actually considering forking it to start a separate SF based Python meet-up, as Mountain View was just too far for me. I really wouldn't be surprised if there were others who saw "we meet at Mountain View" and gave up even considering going. Cheers, Ben -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: smime.p7s Type: application/pkcs7-signature Size: 2507 bytes Desc: not available URL: From aahz at pythoncraft.com Sun Jun 29 15:10:40 2008 From: aahz at pythoncraft.com (Aahz) Date: Sun, 29 Jun 2008 06:10:40 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Fwd: hold a meeting at YouTube in San Bruno? In-Reply-To: References: <99699B5B-FDD8-405E-9EC7-C7EA9432166F@matt-good.net> <78b3a9580806270308pb08c5d8gcfb7743145303b88@mail.gmail.com> <20080629004428.GA24073@panix.com> Message-ID: <20080629131040.GA17486@panix.com> On Sun, Jun 29, 2008, Mike Cheponis wrote: > > Hope you are well. > > Say, have you ever attended a Python meeting within the last 3 or so > years? Yes, not that it's any of your business. > I don't think I've seen you at any of them. > > If, in fact, you have not been to any of the meetings, how is it that you > feel qualified to comment on them? > > Just curious, and very best regards! Because I believe that it's my business to continue fostering community, and I get irritated when I see selfish behavior that prevents people from joining the community. Until BayPIGgies moved to Google, nobody ever argued that we shouldn't meet somewhere that was available. As Wes pointed out, the original meetings were in SF. I think your comment about only people who go to the meetings being qualified to discuss them is especially rude. The whole point of this discussion is that there is a large contingent who cannot easily get to Google. Frankly, I'm rather shocked that anyone voted -1 on San Bruno meetings. You all ought to be ashamed of yourselves. -- Aahz (aahz at pythoncraft.com) <*> http://www.pythoncraft.com/ "as long as we like the same operating system, things are cool." --piranha From annaraven at gmail.com Sun Jun 29 18:35:03 2008 From: annaraven at gmail.com (Anna Ravenscroft) Date: Sun, 29 Jun 2008 09:35:03 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Fwd: hold a meeting at YouTube in San Bruno? In-Reply-To: <20080629131040.GA17486@panix.com> References: <99699B5B-FDD8-405E-9EC7-C7EA9432166F@matt-good.net> <78b3a9580806270308pb08c5d8gcfb7743145303b88@mail.gmail.com> <20080629004428.GA24073@panix.com> <20080629131040.GA17486@panix.com> Message-ID: On Sun, Jun 29, 2008 at 6:10 AM, Aahz wrote: > On Sun, Jun 29, 2008, Mike Cheponis wrote: >> >> Hope you are well. >> >> Say, have you ever attended a Python meeting within the last 3 or so >> years? > > Yes, not that it's any of your business. I've seen you there! Hey - I still want a copy of your book! Personally, I could make it to San Bruno, but not often to SF meetings. However, I understand that for some people it would be harder to make San Bruno than SF. Would it make sense to switch off among all 3? If the Youtube people and the GoogleSF people are willing to do the hosting, we could have first month of each quarter (JAN, APR, JUL, OCT) in Mountain view, 2nd month of the quarter in San Francisco (FEB, MAY, AUG, NOV) and last month of the quarter in San Bruno (MAR, JUN, SEP, DEC). Hrmmm - given the weather, I think I'd rather have august in San francisco. Likely to be cooler. ;-) It would certainly vary the group of attendees. And depending on the speaker, may draw more or fewer people. What do folks think? -- cordially, Anna -- Walking through the water. Trying to get across. Just like everybody else. From ds-bp at sidorof.com Sun Jun 29 20:40:30 2008 From: ds-bp at sidorof.com (DS) Date: Sun, 29 Jun 2008 11:40:30 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Fwd: hold a meeting at YouTube in San Bruno? In-Reply-To: <57FB7C2B-9D82-4EDC-AD01-8E6AC2523215@groovie.org> References: <99699B5B-FDD8-405E-9EC7-C7EA9432166F@matt-good.net> <78b3a9580806270308pb08c5d8gcfb7743145303b88@mail.gmail.com> <20080629004428.GA24073@panix.com> <57FB7C2B-9D82-4EDC-AD01-8E6AC2523215@groovie.org> Message-ID: <4867D71E.7010505@sidorof.com> I also live in the north bay, and can confirm that it is inconvenient to go to Mountain View. For example, when I go, I leave Marin around 3:30 to beat the traffic, and then hole up somewhere to continue working until the meeting time. Before I started doing that, I found that I could be stuck in traffic, either before the bridge or after, such that it was impossible to make the meeting time. I would then just turn around a slowly inch home. My time is very flexible, and so I can choose to allocate it in this way, but clearly, not every one has that option to leave so early. That said, I find the meetings very interesting, and I find that I learn a lot in the meetings, because of both the speakers and the casually speaking with other members. I also accept that most members seem to live much closer to Mountain View. For example, attendance seems to be up in the Google location compare to Ironport (although I can't discount completely the curiosity factor of Google). So, various meeting places would be just fine for me, and probably easier. Don Ben Bangert wrote: > On Jun 28, 2008, at 5:44 PM, Aahz wrote: > >> Finally, I haven't seen a lot of people arguing for a north bay meeting. >> Mostly people are arguing for east bay, SF, and north peninsula > > I'm in the North Bay, and I don't think there's a lot of people up > here so it seems silly to ask ppl to drive up. I'd rather head down to > SF myself. I should note that people don't speak up very much because > I think anyone else in the North Bay has either given up attending > BayPiggies meetings, or attempts to make it down. They don't hang > around and hope (like I apparently have), that the issue will come up > again for discussion. > > The IronPort one wasn't really that helpful, since from the North Bay, > you have to go through all of SF (easily a solid 30 mins on some > nights), and then some... at which point Google in Mountain View seems > like only a wee bit further. > > I heard Google now has an office in SF, is someone there willing to > host it? There's also an O'Reilly office near the Embarcadero, I'm not > sure entirely how many people but I can check. There's ferries going > into the Embarcadero from all over, as well as BART and SF Muni, which > makes it significantly easier to get to than IronPort was from the North. > > Before I saw this thread, I had more or less given up ever attending > another BayPiggies meeting and was actually considering forking it to > start a separate SF based Python meet-up, as Mountain View was just > too far for me. I really wouldn't be surprised if there were others > who saw "we meet at Mountain View" and gave up even considering going. > > Cheers, > Ben > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > Baypiggies mailing list > Baypiggies at python.org > To change your subscription options or unsubscribe: > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies From tpc247 at gmail.com Mon Jun 30 04:02:55 2008 From: tpc247 at gmail.com (tpc247 at gmail.com) Date: Sun, 29 Jun 2008 19:02:55 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Python video suggestion for July 5 Berkeley & Americas' TIPP meeting? In-Reply-To: <1214719688.20145.1260914077@webmail.messagingengine.com> References: <1214719688.20145.1260914077@webmail.messagingengine.com> Message-ID: On 6/28/08, john_re wrote: > > Hi Pythonistas- > > What beginning (or maybe intermediate??) python video(s) are available > for watching over the internet, & which might be best?? For use on July > 5 Saturday. > > ----- > So - anyone know any Python video we all could watch? I'm thinking for > this "getting the Americas meetings set up first meeting" the simplest, > most basic & introductory talk would be best. And, if it was already on > some video streaming or downloading site, so I don't have to do any work > to make it available to the simultaneous meeting groups, so much the > better. > > hey John, Alex Martelli gave a series of talks on Painless Python for Proficient Programmers at Google IO: http://sites.google.com/site/io/painless-python-for-proficient-programmers-part-i Thuon Chen -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From aleax at google.com Mon Jun 30 07:08:07 2008 From: aleax at google.com (Alex Martelli) Date: Sun, 29 Jun 2008 22:08:07 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Python video suggestion for July 5 Berkeley & Americas' TIPP meeting? In-Reply-To: References: <1214719688.20145.1260914077@webmail.messagingengine.com> Message-ID: <55dc209b0806292208r6677405eyb5856105b58a24c8@mail.gmail.com> Yeah, unfortunately the first talk got cut in the first 10 minutes-plus -- I'm working with my colleagues who did the video to see if we can remedy that, but, meanwhile, the start of the presentation should be gotten from my older video of a similar talk that's also on google video under the peculiar title "python for programmer"!-) Alex On Sun, Jun 29, 2008 at 7:02 PM, wrote: > > > On 6/28/08, john_re wrote: >> >> Hi Pythonistas- >> >> What beginning (or maybe intermediate??) python video(s) are available >> for watching over the internet, & which might be best?? For use on July >> 5 Saturday. >> >> ----- >> So - anyone know any Python video we all could watch? I'm thinking for >> this "getting the Americas meetings set up first meeting" the simplest, >> most basic & introductory talk would be best. And, if it was already on >> some video streaming or downloading site, so I don't have to do any work >> to make it available to the simultaneous meeting groups, so much the >> better. >> > > hey John, Alex Martelli gave a series of talks on Painless Python for > Proficient Programmers at Google IO: > > http://sites.google.com/site/io/painless-python-for-proficient-programmers-part-i > > Thuon Chen > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Baypiggies mailing list > Baypiggies at python.org > To change your subscription options or unsubscribe: > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies > From matt at matt-good.net Mon Jun 30 07:29:53 2008 From: matt at matt-good.net (Matt Good) Date: Sun, 29 Jun 2008 22:29:53 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Fwd: hold a meeting at YouTube in San Bruno? In-Reply-To: <57FB7C2B-9D82-4EDC-AD01-8E6AC2523215@groovie.org> References: <99699B5B-FDD8-405E-9EC7-C7EA9432166F@matt-good.net> <78b3a9580806270308pb08c5d8gcfb7743145303b88@mail.gmail.com> <20080629004428.GA24073@panix.com> <57FB7C2B-9D82-4EDC-AD01-8E6AC2523215@groovie.org> Message-ID: <2A22D448-DF00-4B7F-BDA5-8C1C13B5ECB1@matt-good.net> On Jun 28, 2008, at 11:38 PM, Ben Bangert wrote: > On Jun 28, 2008, at 5:44 PM, Aahz wrote: > >> Finally, I haven't seen a lot of people arguing for a north bay >> meeting. >> Mostly people are arguing for east bay, SF, and north peninsula > > I'm in the North Bay, and I don't think there's a lot of people up > here so it seems silly to ask ppl to drive up. I'd rather head down > to SF myself. I should note that people don't speak up very much > because I think anyone else in the North Bay has either given up > attending BayPiggies meetings, or attempts to make it down. They > don't hang around and hope (like I apparently have), that the issue > will come up again for discussion. > > The IronPort one wasn't really that helpful, since from the North > Bay, you have to go through all of SF (easily a solid 30 mins on > some nights), and then some... at which point Google in Mountain > View seems like only a wee bit further. > > I heard Google now has an office in SF, is someone there willing to > host it? I can ask around. I don't know of any Python projects based in the SF office, so I don't know what the interest level is there. I also don't know much about the space there and whether they'd be equipped to handle our group meeting there after-hours. Regarding San Bruno there seems to be enough positive feedback and I like JJ's suggestion of trying it there for one meeting (which is really all I was originally proposing). If it seems successful we can talk about adding it to a rotation of meeting places. I've made a note to check on getting clear instructions for the parking situation (not having a car anymore I forget about these things :) -- Matt From mac at Wireless.Com Mon Jun 30 08:07:09 2008 From: mac at Wireless.Com (Mike Cheponis) Date: Sun, 29 Jun 2008 23:07:09 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Baypiggies] Growing the number/location of meetings Message-ID: Hi all, I've suggested we keep the Google Mt. View meetings as they are, and ADD meetings "up north" (meaning SF, Berkeley, San Bruno, etc). I suggested these additional meetings be on the 4th Thursday of the month. In this way, we grow the Bay Piggies by having a "south" monthly meeting at Google Mt. View (which we have at present), and we have an additional meeting "up north" at location(s) T.B.D. -Mike From john_re at fastmail.us Mon Jun 30 08:19:46 2008 From: john_re at fastmail.us (john_re) Date: Sun, 29 Jun 2008 23:19:46 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Python video suggestion for July 5 Berkeley & Americas' TIPP meeting? In-Reply-To: <55dc209b0806292208r6677405eyb5856105b58a24c8@mail.gmail.com> References: <1214719688.20145.1260914077@webmail.messagingengine.com> <55dc209b0806292208r6677405eyb5856105b58a24c8@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1214806786.2230.1261030009@webmail.messagingengine.com> On Sun, 29 Jun 2008 22:08:07 -0700, "Alex Martelli" said: > Yeah, unfortunately the first talk got cut in the first 10 > minutes-plus -- I'm working with my colleagues who did the video to > see if we can remedy that, but, meanwhile, the start of the > presentation should be gotten from my older video of a similar talk > that's also on google video under the peculiar title "python for > programmer"!-) 1) Alex: How specifically do we do that: get the start of the presentation from the older video? What is the cut point/time? [Any chance it would be remedied by July 4 (one day before the Berkeley meeting)?] 2) Anyone: Is there a way for a person to download & save a copy of these youtube videos for later playback? That way sites watching the video could avoid streaming bottleneck network problems, & people can watch the videos without interruptions. 3) So far I've found or been directed to these videos as possibilities for the July 5 Berkeley/Americas meeting: a) BayPIGgies Monthly Meeting: Python on the OLPC XO Laptop http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=2375256864081352725 b) BayPIGgies Monthly Meeting: Overview of about twenty Python Buzzwords http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nWuLftbyrOY c) Google Developers Day US - Python Design Patterns http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0vJJlVBVTFg&feature=related d) Painless Python for Proficient Programmers http://sites.google.com/site/io/painless-python-for-proficient-programmers-part-i e) OSS Speaker Series: Python for Programmer http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ujkzfC2lebA I'm thinking I'll, in advance of the meeting, on the mailing list (which I'm working to set up now), ask the meeting attendees which talk they would prefer to have for this first multisite meeting. ===== > >> What beginning (or maybe intermediate??) python video(s) are available > >> for watching over the internet, & which might be best?? For use on July > >> 5 Saturday. > > hey John, Alex Martelli gave a series of talks on Painless Python for > > Proficient Programmers at Google IO: > > > > http://sites.google.com/site/io/painless-python-for-proficient-programmers-part-i > > > > Thuon Chen From aleax at google.com Mon Jun 30 08:22:14 2008 From: aleax at google.com (Alex Martelli) Date: Sun, 29 Jun 2008 23:22:14 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Fwd: hold a meeting at YouTube in San Bruno? In-Reply-To: <2A22D448-DF00-4B7F-BDA5-8C1C13B5ECB1@matt-good.net> References: <99699B5B-FDD8-405E-9EC7-C7EA9432166F@matt-good.net> <78b3a9580806270308pb08c5d8gcfb7743145303b88@mail.gmail.com> <20080629004428.GA24073@panix.com> <57FB7C2B-9D82-4EDC-AD01-8E6AC2523215@groovie.org> <2A22D448-DF00-4B7F-BDA5-8C1C13B5ECB1@matt-good.net> Message-ID: <55dc209b0806292322x523aaf4bhaaa6f4d2f84d85f0@mail.gmail.com> On Sun, Jun 29, 2008 at 10:29 PM, Matt Good wrote: ... > I can ask around. I don't know of any Python projects based in the SF > office, so I don't know what the interest level is there. I also don't know Google App Engine moved there recently -- so Guido now works there, so does Brett Slatkin, &c. Whether they'd be interested to go through the hassle of hosting, I dunno. Mail me privately and I'll happily give you emails of other Python-friendly googlers who work there (e.g., one guy that's a Python readability reviewer) even though they may be working more in C++ and/or Java at this time. Whether any of them is interested in taking up the chore of hosting baypiggies, I can't tell, but we can sure try. > much about the space there and whether they'd be equipped to handle our > group meeting there after-hours. I don't have a good grasp of that -- I've been there a few times for meetings &c but I don't know if security is routinely around after hours as in MTV, etc etc. Just in case it requires extra funding to have security stick around on a given night, you may want to CC Chris and Leslie who are those who DO have funding for opensource support (though I have no idea how much $$ that would take, if committing that is within their mission, &c, I'm sure THEY do;-). > Regarding San Bruno there seems to be enough positive feedback and I like > JJ's suggestion of trying it there for one meeting (which is really all I > was originally proposing). If it seems successful we can talk about adding > it to a rotation of meeting places. I've made a note to check on getting > clear instructions for the parking situation (not having a car anymore I > forget about these things :) If you're willing to volunteer for hosting (and having security around in the evening is not something needing extra funding) we should definitely give it a try. While coming up to S.Bruno is obviously more of a hassle for me than sticking around in MTV, I'd be prepared to do that to widen the reach of BayPiggies. I'd also be delighted to stretch to SF, East Bay, AND North Bay occasionally, but I haven't heard anybody volunteering hosting for those locations yet, and it really needs volunteers (able to commit space &c) to make it happen. Hey, once in a blue moon, I'd be up for Santa Rosa or Sevastopol too (I guess that's about the limit of my geographical reach;-) if O'Reilly (or Pastis if he's into Python -- boy do I ever LOVE Pearls before Swines!-) can commit volunteers and space to host us...;-) Alex From aleax at google.com Mon Jun 30 08:41:02 2008 From: aleax at google.com (Alex Martelli) Date: Sun, 29 Jun 2008 23:41:02 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Python video suggestion for July 5 Berkeley & Americas' TIPP meeting? In-Reply-To: <1214806786.2230.1261030009@webmail.messagingengine.com> References: <1214719688.20145.1260914077@webmail.messagingengine.com> <55dc209b0806292208r6677405eyb5856105b58a24c8@mail.gmail.com> <1214806786.2230.1261030009@webmail.messagingengine.com> Message-ID: <55dc209b0806292341y2f0f3a99neea6702854eb7e51@mail.gmail.com> On Sun, Jun 29, 2008 at 11:19 PM, john_re wrote: > On Sun, 29 Jun 2008 22:08:07 -0700, "Alex Martelli" > said: >> Yeah, unfortunately the first talk got cut in the first 10 >> minutes-plus -- I'm working with my colleagues who did the video to >> see if we can remedy that, but, meanwhile, the start of the >> presentation should be gotten from my older video of a similar talk >> that's also on google video under the peculiar title "python for >> programmer"!-) > > 1) Alex: How specifically do we do that: get the start of the > presentation from the older video? What is the cut point/time? [Any > chance it would be remedied by July 4 (one day before the Berkeley > meeting)?] No idea what chance my colleagues have of fixing the issue in the coming week, sorry. The Google I/O new and shiny presentation, as currently recorded on video, starts at "Seeing Results" -- you could start with the "Python for Programmer" talk and take the first 25 minutes or so from that (sorry, I tried measuring that more precisely but it's getting pretty late now, so I'll just guess!-) and then segue into the generally preferable Google I/O talks (preferable except for the slide formats -- for I/O I had to use dark text on light background AND [eecch!] Ariel fonts...). Alex From cvrebert at gmail.com Mon Jun 30 08:54:47 2008 From: cvrebert at gmail.com (Chris Rebert) Date: Sun, 29 Jun 2008 23:54:47 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Python video suggestion for July 5 Berkeley & Americas' TIPP meeting? In-Reply-To: <1214806786.2230.1261030009@webmail.messagingengine.com> References: <1214719688.20145.1260914077@webmail.messagingengine.com> <55dc209b0806292208r6677405eyb5856105b58a24c8@mail.gmail.com> <1214806786.2230.1261030009@webmail.messagingengine.com> Message-ID: <47c890dc0806292354ldb25843n719f122d3cbfb5ca@mail.gmail.com> On Sun, Jun 29, 2008 at 11:19 PM, john_re wrote: > On Sun, 29 Jun 2008 22:08:07 -0700, "Alex Martelli" > said: >> Yeah, unfortunately the first talk got cut in the first 10 >> minutes-plus -- I'm working with my colleagues who did the video to >> see if we can remedy that, but, meanwhile, the start of the >> presentation should be gotten from my older video of a similar talk >> that's also on google video under the peculiar title "python for >> programmer"!-) > > 1) Alex: How specifically do we do that: get the start of the > presentation from the older video? What is the cut point/time? [Any > chance it would be remedied by July 4 (one day before the Berkeley > meeting)?] > > > 2) Anyone: Is there a way for a person to download & save a copy of > these youtube videos for later playback? That way sites watching the > video could avoid streaming bottleneck network problems, & people can > watch the videos without interruptions. http://www.techcrunch.com/get-youtube-movie/ will download YouTube videos in .flv format, which can be played by most media players (e.g. VLC, mplayer) - Chris > > > 3) So far I've found or been directed to these videos as possibilities > for the July 5 Berkeley/Americas meeting: > > a) BayPIGgies Monthly Meeting: Python on the OLPC XO Laptop > http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=2375256864081352725 > > b) BayPIGgies Monthly Meeting: Overview of about twenty Python Buzzwords > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nWuLftbyrOY > > c) Google Developers Day US - Python Design Patterns > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0vJJlVBVTFg&feature=related > > d) Painless Python for Proficient Programmers > http://sites.google.com/site/io/painless-python-for-proficient-programmers-part-i > > e) OSS Speaker Series: Python for Programmer > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ujkzfC2lebA > > > I'm thinking I'll, in advance of the meeting, on the mailing list (which > I'm working to set up now), ask the meeting attendees which talk they > would prefer to have for this first multisite meeting. > > ===== >> >> What beginning (or maybe intermediate??) python video(s) are available >> >> for watching over the internet, & which might be best?? For use on July >> >> 5 Saturday. > >> > hey John, Alex Martelli gave a series of talks on Painless Python for >> > Proficient Programmers at Google IO: >> > >> > http://sites.google.com/site/io/painless-python-for-proficient-programmers-part-i >> > >> > Thuon Chen > _______________________________________________ > Baypiggies mailing list > Baypiggies at python.org > To change your subscription options or unsubscribe: > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies > From jjinux at gmail.com Mon Jun 30 10:42:46 2008 From: jjinux at gmail.com (Shannon -jj Behrens) Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2008 01:42:46 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Fwd: hold a meeting at YouTube in San Bruno? In-Reply-To: <55dc209b0806292322x523aaf4bhaaa6f4d2f84d85f0@mail.gmail.com> References: <99699B5B-FDD8-405E-9EC7-C7EA9432166F@matt-good.net> <78b3a9580806270308pb08c5d8gcfb7743145303b88@mail.gmail.com> <20080629004428.GA24073@panix.com> <57FB7C2B-9D82-4EDC-AD01-8E6AC2523215@groovie.org> <2A22D448-DF00-4B7F-BDA5-8C1C13B5ECB1@matt-good.net> <55dc209b0806292322x523aaf4bhaaa6f4d2f84d85f0@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Tony C. wrote: > Did we not already do this with the meetings at Ironport? > Did those metings not last until Ironport laid off the people who were coordinating our meetings? > I'm a bit fuzzy on the details- former Ironport people please speak up. We stopped holding them at IronPort when I left IronPort, but by then, there was already consensus to stick with just Google. Aahz wrote: > Yes, not that it's any of your business. Yikes! Let's not get too heated, eh? ;) Aahz wrote: > Frankly, I'm rather shocked that anyone voted -1 on San Bruno meetings. Unfortunately, that's what happened last time too. Anna wrote: > Would it make sense to switch off among all 3? I would be happy with that arrangement. Best Regards, -jj From aahz at pythoncraft.com Mon Jun 30 16:02:04 2008 From: aahz at pythoncraft.com (Aahz) Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2008 07:02:04 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Growing the number/location of meetings In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20080630140204.GA5623@panix.com> On Sun, Jun 29, 2008, Mike Cheponis wrote: > > I've suggested we keep the Google Mt. View meetings as they are, and ADD > meetings "up north" (meaning SF, Berkeley, San Bruno, etc). > > I suggested these additional meetings be on the 4th Thursday of the month. > > In this way, we grow the Bay Piggies by having a "south" monthly meeting at > Google Mt. View (which we have at present), and we have an additional > meeting "up north" at location(s) T.B.D. The problem is that people like Alex already said that they're interested in attending meetings in multiple locations -- but very few people are able to attend multiple meetings per month. If we consistently get more than fifty people at each location, maybe then it's time to consider multiple meetings per month. If we do that, we might as well add a *different* weeknight; I know some people can't attend meetings on Thursdays, which then leads to *each* location rotating between weeknights so that e.g. people who can't go to Mountain View on Thursdays have a chance. -- Aahz (aahz at pythoncraft.com) <*> http://www.pythoncraft.com/ "as long as we like the same operating system, things are cool." --piranha From lhawthorn at google.com Mon Jun 30 17:32:37 2008 From: lhawthorn at google.com (Leslie Hawthorn) Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2008 08:32:37 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Fwd: hold a meeting at YouTube in San Bruno? In-Reply-To: References: <99699B5B-FDD8-405E-9EC7-C7EA9432166F@matt-good.net> <78b3a9580806270308pb08c5d8gcfb7743145303b88@mail.gmail.com> <20080629004428.GA24073@panix.com> <57FB7C2B-9D82-4EDC-AD01-8E6AC2523215@groovie.org> <2A22D448-DF00-4B7F-BDA5-8C1C13B5ECB1@matt-good.net> <55dc209b0806292322x523aaf4bhaaa6f4d2f84d85f0@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4869cee70806300832x33797943kcac8a157bd0f9ee4@mail.gmail.com> On Mon, Jun 30, 2008 at 1:42 AM, Shannon -jj Behrens wrote: > > Anna wrote: > > Would it make sense to switch off among all 3? > > I would be happy with that arrangement. > I'm happy to keep helping with meeting in Mountain View, but you folks would need to find hosts in San Bruno or in San Francisco. Which you're clearly already working on. :) -- Leslie Hawthorn Program Manager - Open Source Google Inc. http://code.google.com/opensource/ I blog here: http://google-opensource.blogspot.com - http://www.hawthornlandings.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From donnamsnow at gmail.com Mon Jun 30 20:15:19 2008 From: donnamsnow at gmail.com (Donna Snow) Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2008 11:15:19 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Online meeting? Message-ID: Why not add an "online" aspect to the meetings.. We have video don't we? Can we stream it so those of us who physically can't make south bay/northbay meetings can still watch/participate? Although in person is much, much nicer it isn't always possible.. Just something to consider. Donna -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From brent.tubbs at gmail.com Mon Jun 30 20:57:46 2008 From: brent.tubbs at gmail.com (Brent Tubbs) Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2008 11:57:46 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] newbie nuggets In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <769bb4300806301157x140eec6cr317d4971600a2684@mail.gmail.com> Great big +1. I've been doing little python programs for a couple of years, but am still firmly in the "newbie" camp. For me, newbie nuggets are just the thing to tip the scales in favor of making an effort to get to the meetings. On Fri, Jun 27, 2008 at 6:10 PM, Daryl Spitzer wrote: > +1 > > I could stand to learn more about: > >> * Using IPython (and installing it with an egg). >> * Using "try/finally" with file handles vs. using the "with" statement. > > And since the best way to learn something in depth is to teach it, I > volunteer to present a "newbie nugget" (good name) on these. > > -- > Daryl > > > On Fri, Jun 27, 2008 at 4:30 PM, Anna Ravenscroft wrote: >> On Fri, Jun 27, 2008 at 4:21 PM, Shannon -jj Behrens wrote: >>> I was talking with a friend today, and he brought up the fact that we >>> hadn't had a newbies night in a long time. I think that the problem >>> with having a newbies night every year or so is that there are >>> programmers who have to learn Python all year long. Clearly, there >>> are training classes, but I think we could do more. >>> >>> I'd like to propose a slight addition to our normal meetings called >>> "newbie nuggest". I propose that *at the beginning of each meeting*, >>> we have a *10 minute* section devoted to newbies in which we cover one >>> intermediate topic. >> >> Or pretty basic topics (not "this is a string" but "this is the new >> string templating") >> >>> It doesn't make sense to cover how to write a >>> "for" loop every month, but it would make sense to cover something >>> like generators. >>> >>> The format is that one person covers one topic. Slides are optional. >>> Showing some code, perhaps in the Python shell, is required. I think >>> this would be a great way to give some of the less advanced Python >>> programmers something to contribute to BayPiggies. Even if you don't >>> know what how to write a function decorator now, you could probably >>> learn it well enough to talk about it for 10 minutes before the next >>> meeting. >>> >>> Here are some suggested topics: >>> >>> * Function decorators. >>> * List comprehensions. >>> * Generators and generator expressions. >>> * Function pointers and map. >>> * Using "else" with "for", "while", and "except". >>> * Using StringIO. >>> * Using IPython (and installing it with an egg). >>> * Using "try/finally" with file handles vs. using the "with" statement. >>> * Using lambda. >>> >> * Starting with pygame! >> * using datetime >> * using decimal >> * using pytz >> * file handling basics >> * string formatting/templating >> >>> I think these could be short, sweet, and helpful for a decent >>> percentage of our audience. >> >> +1 >> Great idea JJ! And I like starting the meeting with newbie-friendly >> stuff - so they don't have to wait through more advanced stuff to get >> to something they can understand. >> >> -- >> cordially, >> Anna >> -- >> Walking through the water. Trying to get across. >> Just like everybody else. >> _______________________________________________ >> Baypiggies mailing list >> Baypiggies at python.org >> To change your subscription options or unsubscribe: >> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies >> > _______________________________________________ > Baypiggies mailing list > Baypiggies at python.org > To change your subscription options or unsubscribe: > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies > From spmcinerney at hotmail.com Mon Jun 30 21:13:53 2008 From: spmcinerney at hotmail.com (Stephen McInerney) Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2008 12:13:53 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] newbie nuggets In-Reply-To: <769bb4300806301157x140eec6cr317d4971600a2684@mail.gmail.com> References: <769bb4300806301157x140eec6cr317d4971600a2684@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: +1 Another aspect which as fallen away is that in the old days, we would encourage newbies or a person who has never spoken to present something briefly (whether it's a nugget, a mini-book-review or a how-to). I think this is very important to encourage people to step forward and not be shy. Stephen > Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2008 11:57:46 -0700 > From: brent.tubbs at gmail.com > To: baypiggies at python.org > Subject: Re: [Baypiggies] newbie nuggets > > Great big +1. > > I've been doing little python programs for a couple of years, but am > still firmly in the "newbie" camp. For me, newbie nuggets are just > the thing to tip the scales in favor of making an effort to get to the > meetings. > > On Fri, Jun 27, 2008 at 6:10 PM, Daryl Spitzer wrote: > > +1 > > > > I could stand to learn more about: > > > >> * Using IPython (and installing it with an egg). > >> * Using "try/finally" with file handles vs. using the "with" statement. > > > > And since the best way to learn something in depth is to teach it, I > > volunteer to present a "newbie nugget" (good name) on these. > > > > -- > > Daryl > > > > > > On Fri, Jun 27, 2008 at 4:30 PM, Anna Ravenscroft wrote: > >> On Fri, Jun 27, 2008 at 4:21 PM, Shannon -jj Behrens wrote: > >>> I was talking with a friend today, and he brought up the fact that we > >>> hadn't had a newbies night in a long time. I think that the problem > >>> with having a newbies night every year or so is that there are > >>> programmers who have to learn Python all year long. Clearly, there > >>> are training classes, but I think we could do more. > >>> > >>> I'd like to propose a slight addition to our normal meetings called > >>> "newbie nuggest". I propose that *at the beginning of each meeting*, > >>> we have a *10 minute* section devoted to newbies in which we cover one > >>> intermediate topic. > >> > >> Or pretty basic topics (not "this is a string" but "this is the new > >> string templating") > >> > >>> It doesn't make sense to cover how to write a > >>> "for" loop every month, but it would make sense to cover something > >>> like generators. > >>> > >>> The format is that one person covers one topic. Slides are optional. > >>> Showing some code, perhaps in the Python shell, is required. I think > >>> this would be a great way to give some of the less advanced Python > >>> programmers something to contribute to BayPiggies. Even if you don't > >>> know what how to write a function decorator now, you could probably > >>> learn it well enough to talk about it for 10 minutes before the next > >>> meeting. > >>> > >>> Here are some suggested topics: > >>> > >>> * Function decorators. > >>> * List comprehensions. > >>> * Generators and generator expressions. > >>> * Function pointers and map. > >>> * Using "else" with "for", "while", and "except". > >>> * Using StringIO. > >>> * Using IPython (and installing it with an egg). > >>> * Using "try/finally" with file handles vs. using the "with" statement. > >>> * Using lambda. > >>> > >> * Starting with pygame! > >> * using datetime > >> * using decimal > >> * using pytz > >> * file handling basics > >> * string formatting/templating > >> > >>> I think these could be short, sweet, and helpful for a decent > >>> percentage of our audience. > >> > >> +1 > >> Great idea JJ! And I like starting the meeting with newbie-friendly > >> stuff - so they don't have to wait through more advanced stuff to get > >> to something they can understand. > >> > >> -- > >> cordially, > >> Anna > >> -- > >> Walking through the water. Trying to get across. > >> Just like everybody else. > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Baypiggies mailing list > >> Baypiggies at python.org > >> To change your subscription options or unsubscribe: > >> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies > >> > > _______________________________________________ > > Baypiggies mailing list > > Baypiggies at python.org > > To change your subscription options or unsubscribe: > > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies > > > _______________________________________________ > Baypiggies mailing list > Baypiggies at python.org > To change your subscription options or unsubscribe: > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies _________________________________________________________________ The other season of giving begins 6/24/08. Check out the i?m Talkathon. http://www.imtalkathon.com?source=TXT_EML_WLH_SeasonOfGiving -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mac at Wireless.Com Mon Jun 30 22:08:19 2008 From: mac at Wireless.Com (Mike Cheponis) Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2008 13:08:19 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Baypiggies] Growing the number/location of meetings In-Reply-To: <20080630140204.GA5623@panix.com> References: <20080630140204.GA5623@panix.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 30 Jun 2008, Aahz wrote: >> I've suggested we keep the Google Mt. View meetings as they are, and ADD >> meetings "up north" (meaning SF, Berkeley, San Bruno, etc). >> >> I suggested these additional meetings be on the 4th Thursday of the month. >> >> In this way, we grow the Bay Piggies by having a "south" monthly meeting at >> Google Mt. View (which we have at present), and we have an additional >> meeting "up north" at location(s) T.B.D. > > The problem is that people like Alex already said that they're interested > in attending meetings in multiple locations -- but very few people are > able to attend multiple meetings per month. If we consistently get more > than fifty people at each location, maybe then it's time to consider > multiple meetings per month. > > If we do that, we might as well add a *different* weeknight; I know some > people can't attend meetings on Thursdays, which then leads to *each* > location rotating between weeknights so that e.g. people who can't go to > Mountain View on Thursdays have a chance. > -- > Aahz (aahz at pythoncraft.com) <*> http://www.pythoncraft.com/ I find these comments to be unhelpful. Aahz, I can see that English is probably not your first language. Firstly, let's take apart your comments: > The problem is that people like Alex already said that they're interested > in attending meetings in multiple locations -- but very few people are > able to attend multiple meetings per month. Ahh, we have no data on this. You just pulled this out of your butt. I, for one, would enjoy going to several meetings per month. Others could pick and choose. > If we consistently get more than fifty people at each location, maybe then it's time to consider > multiple meetings per month. Excuse me, what is this "magic number" of 50 that you cooked up? You're making an error in assuming that no south bay people will attend any other meeting. > If we do that, we might as well add a *different* weeknight; I know some > people can't attend meetings on Thursdays, which then leads to *each* Aahz, NOBODY has posted that this is a problem; I would much prefer to hear from those people directly than just having you say people can't attend on Thursdays. > location rotating between weeknights so that e.g. people who can't go to > Mountain View on Thursdays have a chance. And, as I say in Plain English, above, I "suggested" the 4th Thursday, because then every 2 weeks (approx) there would be a baypiggies meeting somewhere in the Bay Area. Move it +/- one day, who cares? ------ Aahz, you hardly ever come to meetings, and, unless you're plan on changing your behavior, you won't come to future meetings. I think it's a travesty that you continue to post on this subject - what are you, some kind of behind-the-scenes King who can tell us plebians what to do? I think you have some kind of problem. I really wouldn't mind if your comments were helpful - but, as I've demonstrated, you're making things up. Not helpful. -Mike From bdbaddog at gmail.com Mon Jun 30 22:20:45 2008 From: bdbaddog at gmail.com (William Deegan) Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2008 13:20:45 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Growing the number/location of meetings In-Reply-To: References: <20080630140204.GA5623@panix.com> Message-ID: <8540148a0806301320g3ab70796p2aa4faa3c5320472@mail.gmail.com> Mike, -50 unsportsmanlike conduct. 10 yard penalty, change of possession. -Bill On Mon, Jun 30, 2008 at 1:08 PM, Mike Cheponis wrote: > On Mon, 30 Jun 2008, Aahz wrote: > > I've suggested we keep the Google Mt. View meetings as they are, and ADD >>> meetings "up north" (meaning SF, Berkeley, San Bruno, etc). >>> >>> I suggested these additional meetings be on the 4th Thursday of the >>> month. >>> >>> In this way, we grow the Bay Piggies by having a "south" monthly meeting >>> at >>> Google Mt. View (which we have at present), and we have an additional >>> meeting "up north" at location(s) T.B.D. >>> >> >> The problem is that people like Alex already said that they're interested >> in attending meetings in multiple locations -- but very few people are >> able to attend multiple meetings per month. If we consistently get more >> than fifty people at each location, maybe then it's time to consider >> multiple meetings per month. >> >> If we do that, we might as well add a *different* weeknight; I know some >> people can't attend meetings on Thursdays, which then leads to *each* >> location rotating between weeknights so that e.g. people who can't go to >> Mountain View on Thursdays have a chance. >> -- >> Aahz (aahz at pythoncraft.com) <*> >> http://www.pythoncraft.com/ >> > > I find these comments to be unhelpful. > > Aahz, I can see that English is probably not your first language. > > Firstly, let's take apart your comments: > > > The problem is that people like Alex already said that they're interested >> in attending meetings in multiple locations -- but very few people are >> able to attend multiple meetings per month. >> > > Ahh, we have no data on this. You just pulled this out of your butt. > > I, for one, would enjoy going to several meetings per month. Others could > pick and choose. > > > If we consistently get more than fifty people at each location, maybe then >> it's time to consider >> multiple meetings per month. >> > > Excuse me, what is this "magic number" of 50 that you cooked up? You're > making an error in assuming that no south bay people will attend any other > meeting. > > > If we do that, we might as well add a *different* weeknight; I know some >> people can't attend meetings on Thursdays, which then leads to *each* >> > > Aahz, NOBODY has posted that this is a problem; I would much prefer to hear > from those people directly than just having you say people can't attend on > Thursdays. > > location rotating between weeknights so that e.g. people who can't go to >> Mountain View on Thursdays have a chance. >> > > And, as I say in Plain English, above, I "suggested" the 4th Thursday, > because then every 2 weeks (approx) there would be a baypiggies meeting > somewhere in the Bay Area. Move it +/- one day, who cares? > > > ------ > Aahz, you hardly ever come to meetings, and, unless you're plan on changing > your behavior, you won't come to future meetings. > > I think it's a travesty that you continue to post on this subject - what > are you, some kind of behind-the-scenes King who can tell us plebians what > to do? I think you have some kind of problem. > > I really wouldn't mind if your comments were helpful - but, as I've > demonstrated, you're making things up. > > Not helpful. > > -Mike > > _______________________________________________ > Baypiggies mailing list > Baypiggies at python.org > To change your subscription options or unsubscribe: > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From annaraven at gmail.com Mon Jun 30 22:28:47 2008 From: annaraven at gmail.com (Anna Ravenscroft) Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2008 13:28:47 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Growing the number/location of meetings In-Reply-To: <20080630140204.GA5623@panix.com> References: <20080630140204.GA5623@panix.com> Message-ID: I do like the idea of a different weeknight for other meetings - Thursday is often a conflict for me. At Google, I can make Thursday nights, but not elsewhere. If we do end up doing additional meeting locations, we may want to keep this "other weeknights" idea in mind. On Mon, Jun 30, 2008 at 7:02 AM, Aahz wrote: > On Sun, Jun 29, 2008, Mike Cheponis wrote: >> >> I've suggested we keep the Google Mt. View meetings as they are, and ADD >> meetings "up north" (meaning SF, Berkeley, San Bruno, etc). >> >> I suggested these additional meetings be on the 4th Thursday of the month. >> >> In this way, we grow the Bay Piggies by having a "south" monthly meeting at >> Google Mt. View (which we have at present), and we have an additional >> meeting "up north" at location(s) T.B.D. > > The problem is that people like Alex already said that they're interested > in attending meetings in multiple locations -- but very few people are > able to attend multiple meetings per month. If we consistently get more > than fifty people at each location, maybe then it's time to consider > multiple meetings per month. > > If we do that, we might as well add a *different* weeknight; I know some > people can't attend meetings on Thursdays, which then leads to *each* > location rotating between weeknights so that e.g. people who can't go to > Mountain View on Thursdays have a chance. > -- > Aahz (aahz at pythoncraft.com) <*> http://www.pythoncraft.com/ > > "as long as we like the same operating system, things are cool." --piranha > _______________________________________________ > Baypiggies mailing list > Baypiggies at python.org > To change your subscription options or unsubscribe: > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies > -- cordially, Anna -- Walking through the water. Trying to get across. Just like everybody else. From varmaa at gmail.com Mon Jun 30 23:00:56 2008 From: varmaa at gmail.com (Atul Varma) Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2008 14:00:56 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] newbie nuggets In-Reply-To: References: <769bb4300806301157x140eec6cr317d4971600a2684@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <361b27370806301400k1aeb2ee8wde9ccfa21fc91a12@mail.gmail.com> I agree with everything everyone's said so far on this, and I'm also interested in presenting a newbie nugget myself. - Atul On Mon, Jun 30, 2008 at 12:13 PM, Stephen McInerney wrote: > > +1 > > Another aspect which as fallen away is that in the old days, we would > encourage > newbies or a person who has never spoken to present something briefly > (whether it's a nugget, a mini-book-review or a how-to). > I think this is very important to encourage people to step forward and not > be shy. > > Stephen > > > > Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2008 11:57:46 -0700 > > From: brent.tubbs at gmail.com > > To: baypiggies at python.org > > Subject: Re: [Baypiggies] newbie nuggets > > > > > Great big +1. > > > > I've been doing little python programs for a couple of years, but am > > still firmly in the "newbie" camp. For me, newbie nuggets are just > > the thing to tip the scales in favor of making an effort to get to the > > meetings. > > > > On Fri, Jun 27, 2008 at 6:10 PM, Daryl Spitzer > wrote: > > > +1 > > > > > > I could stand to learn more about: > > > > > >> * Using IPython (and installing it with an egg). > > >> * Using "try/finally" with file handles vs. using the "with" > statement. > > > > > > And since the best way to learn something in depth is to teach it, I > > > volunteer to present a "newbie nugget" (good name) on these. > > > > > > -- > > > Daryl > > > > > > > > > On Fri, Jun 27, 2008 at 4:30 PM, Anna Ravenscroft > wrote: > > >> On Fri, Jun 27, 2008 at 4:21 PM, Shannon -jj Behrens < > jjinux at gmail.com> wrote: > > >>> I was talking with a friend today, and he brought up the fact that we > > >>> hadn't had a newbies night in a long time. I think that the problem > > >>> with having a newbies night every year or so is that there are > > >>> programmers who have to learn Python all year long. Clearly, there > > >>> are training classes, but I think we could do more. > > >>> > > >>> I'd like to propose a slight addition to our normal meetings called > > >>> "newbie nuggest". I propose that *at the beginning of each meeting*, > > >>> we have a *10 minute* section devoted to newbies in which we cover > one > > >>> intermediate topic. > > >> > > >> Or pretty basic topics (not "this is a string" but "this is the new > > >> string templating") > > >> > > >>> It doesn't make sense to cover how to write a > > >>> "for" loop every month, but it would make sense to cover something > > >>> like generators. > > >>> > > >>> The format is that one person covers one topic. Slides are optional. > > >>> Showing some code, perhaps in the Python shell, is required. I think > > >>> this would be a great way to give some of the less advanced Python > > >>> programmers something to contribute to BayPiggies. Even if you don't > > >>> know what how to write a function decorator now, you could probably > > >>> learn it well enough to talk about it for 10 minutes before the next > > >>> meeting. > > >>> > > >>> Here are some suggested topics: > > >>> > > >>> * Function decorators. > > >>> * List comprehensions. > > >>> * Generators and generator expressions. > > >>> * Function pointers and map. > > >>> * Using "else" with "for", "while", and "except". > > >>> * Using StringIO. > > >>> * Using IPython (and installing it with an egg). > > >>> * Using "try/finally" with file handles vs. using the "with" > statement. > > >>> * Using lambda. > > >>> > > >> * Starting with pygame! > > >> * using datetime > > >> * using decimal > > >> * using pytz > > >> * file handling basics > > >> * string formatting/templating > > >> > > >>> I think these could be short, sweet, and helpful for a decent > > >>> percentage of our audience. > > >> > > >> +1 > > >> Great idea JJ! And I like starting the meeting with newbie-friendly > > >> stuff - so they don't have to wait through more advanced stuff to get > > >> to something they can understand. > > >> > > >> -- > > >> cordially, > > >> Anna > > >> -- > > >> Walking through the water. Trying to get across. > > >> Just like everybody else. > > >> _______________________________________________ > > >> Baypiggies mailing list > > >> Baypiggies at python.org > > >> To change your subscription options or unsubscribe: > > >> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies > > >> > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Baypiggies mailing list > > > Baypiggies at python.org > > > To change your subscription options or unsubscribe: > > > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Baypiggies mailing list > > Baypiggies at python.org > > To change your subscription options or unsubscribe: > > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies > > ------------------------------ > The other season of giving begins 6/24/08. Check out the i'm Talkathon. Check > it out! > > _______________________________________________ > Baypiggies mailing list > Baypiggies at python.org > To change your subscription options or unsubscribe: > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From uak at nerp.net Mon Jun 30 23:05:29 2008 From: uak at nerp.net (Ursula A. Kallio) Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2008 14:05:29 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Baypiggies] newbie nuggets In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: +1 for newbie nuggets. uak