From jjinux at gmail.com  Sat Sep  1 08:31:20 2007
From: jjinux at gmail.com (Shannon -jj Behrens)
Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2007 23:31:20 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] Fwd: Python 3000 released as 3.0a1
In-Reply-To: <ca471dc20708311017j271e484dld449ec0ecdcc26ac@mail.gmail.com>
References: <ca471dc20708311017j271e484dld449ec0ecdcc26ac@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <c41f67b90708312331m3b935b16ybfa9c9f261c8f0a2@mail.gmail.com>

And there was much rejoicing!

-jj

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Guido van Rossum <guido at python.org>
Date: Aug 31, 2007 10:17 AM
Subject: Python 3000 released as 3.0a1
To: python-announce-list at python.org


[Bcc: python-list at python.org]

The first Python 3000 release is out -- Python 3.0a1. Be the first one
on your block to download it!

   http://python.org/download/releases/3.0/

Excerpts:

Python 3000 (a.k.a. "Py3k", and released as Python 3.0) is a new
version of the language that is incompatible with the 2.x line of
releases. The language is mostly the same, but many details,
especially how built-in objects like dictionaries and strings work,
have changed considerably, and a lot of deprecated features have
finally been removed.

This is an ongoing project; the cleanup isn't expected to be complete
until 2008. In particular there are plans to reorganize the standard
library namespace.

The release plan is to have a series of alpha releases in 2007, beta
releases in 2008, and a final release in August 2008. The alpha
releases are primarily aimed at developers who want a sneak peek at
the new langauge, especially those folks who plan to port their code
to Python 3000. The hope is that by the time of the final release,
many 3rd party packages will already be available in a 3.0-compatible
form.

More links:

* Online docs: http://docs.python.org/dev/3.0/
* What's new: http://docs.python.org/dev/3.0/whatsnew/3.0.html

* Source tar ball: http://python.org/ftp/python/3.0/Python-3.0a1.tgz
* Windows MSI installer: http://python.org/ftp/python/3.0/python-3.0a1.msi

* PEP 3000: http://python.org/dev/peps/pep-3000/
* Issue tracker: http://bugs.python.org/
* Py3k dev list: http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-3000/
* Conversion tool for Python 2.x code:
  http://svn.python.org/view/sandbox/trunk/2to3/

--
--Guido van Rossum (home page: http://www.python.org/~guido/)
--
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-announce-list

        Support the Python Software Foundation:
        http://www.python.org/psf/donations.html


-- 
http://jjinux.blogspot.com/

From tpc247 at gmail.com  Thu Sep  6 16:11:43 2007
From: tpc247 at gmail.com (tpc247 at gmail.com)
Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2007 07:11:43 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] BayPIGgies meeting for this month
Message-ID: <bae1efdf0709060711v4bbbd784q416b20e3c2131fd2@mail.gmail.com>

hi guys, so I thought I'd take this opportunity to ask for the specifics of
this month's meeting so I can put to use the Plone skills Donna taught me.
The list has been quiet lately, but I wanted to get cracking on editing the
posting at http://baypiggies.net/new/plone
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From donnamsnow at gmail.com  Thu Sep  6 17:09:51 2007
From: donnamsnow at gmail.com (Donna Snow)
Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2007 08:09:51 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] BayPIGgies meeting for this month
In-Reply-To: <bae1efdf0709060711v4bbbd784q416b20e3c2131fd2@mail.gmail.com>
References: <bae1efdf0709060711v4bbbd784q416b20e3c2131fd2@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <baf0d46b0709060809g4d934681s76f622992787963c@mail.gmail.com>

We should just go ahead and make the new site live..I'm not sure who
has that authority..access to dns..

I'll work on the light green text and any other issues while it's live..

(time is flying by.. seems like we just HAD a meeting!)

If'n you have any questions while modifying.. let me know..

Donna

On 9/6/07, tpc247 at gmail.com <tpc247 at gmail.com> wrote:
> hi guys, so I thought I'd take this opportunity to ask for the specifics of
> this month's meeting so I can put to use the Plone skills Donna taught me.
> The list has been quiet lately, but I wanted to get cracking on editing the
> posting at http://baypiggies.net/new/plone
> _______________________________________________
> Baypiggies mailing list
> Baypiggies at python.org
> To change your subscription options or unsubscribe:
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies
>

From DennisR at dair.com  Thu Sep  6 17:25:46 2007
From: DennisR at dair.com (Dennis Reinhardt)
Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2007 08:25:46 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] BayPIGgies meeting for this month
In-Reply-To: <baf0d46b0709060809g4d934681s76f622992787963c@mail.gmail.co
 m>
References: <bae1efdf0709060711v4bbbd784q416b20e3c2131fd2@mail.gmail.com>
	<bae1efdf0709060711v4bbbd784q416b20e3c2131fd2@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20070906082335.00c09340@localhost>

At 08:09 AM 9/6/2007, Donna Snow wrote:
>We should just go ahead and make the new site live..I'm not sure who
>has that authority..access to dns..


I do.

Is the new site at a different IP address/  What is it?

If the new site is merely at a subdirectory at present IP, it is not a DNS 
issue.

Dennis

  ---------------------------------
| Dennis    | DennisR at dair.com    |
| Reinhardt | http://www.dair.com |
  ---------------------------------


From donnamsnow at gmail.com  Thu Sep  6 17:46:49 2007
From: donnamsnow at gmail.com (Donna Snow)
Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2007 08:46:49 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] BayPIGgies meeting for this month
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20070906082335.00c09340@localhost>
References: <bae1efdf0709060711v4bbbd784q416b20e3c2131fd2@mail.gmail.com>
	<5.1.0.14.0.20070906082335.00c09340@localhost>
Message-ID: <baf0d46b0709060846i33682765u6dc83fd1b2ee8377@mail.gmail.com>

ah it's a subdirectory I believe.. let me log in to Web Factions and
figure out how to switch it (it's not my servers so I'm not sure how
they have stuff setup)

Donna

On 9/6/07, Dennis Reinhardt <DennisR at dair.com> wrote:
> At 08:09 AM 9/6/2007, Donna Snow wrote:
> >We should just go ahead and make the new site live..I'm not sure who
> >has that authority..access to dns..
>
>
> I do.
>
> Is the new site at a different IP address/  What is it?
>
> If the new site is merely at a subdirectory at present IP, it is not a DNS
> issue.
>
> Dennis
>
>   ---------------------------------
> | Dennis    | DennisR at dair.com    |
> | Reinhardt | http://www.dair.com |
>   ---------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> Baypiggies mailing list
> Baypiggies at python.org
> To change your subscription options or unsubscribe:
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies
>

From dcramer at gmail.com  Thu Sep  6 18:34:33 2007
From: dcramer at gmail.com (David Cramer)
Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2007 09:34:33 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] Django Sprint
Message-ID: <f470871d0709060934y10609cd2sb9b3bac7f6230611@mail.gmail.com>

I just thought I'd throw this up on here, in case anyone doesn't follow the
user groups.

http://code.djangoproject.com/wiki/Sprint14Sep

-- 
David Cramer
Lead Developer
Curse, Inc.
http://www.curse.com/
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From cappy2112 at gmail.com  Thu Sep  6 18:48:07 2007
From: cappy2112 at gmail.com (Tony Cappellini)
Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2007 09:48:07 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] BayPIGgies meeting for this month
In-Reply-To: <baf0d46b0709060809g4d934681s76f622992787963c@mail.gmail.com>
References: <bae1efdf0709060711v4bbbd784q416b20e3c2131fd2@mail.gmail.com>
	<baf0d46b0709060809g4d934681s76f622992787963c@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <8249c4ac0709060948q3709bb1en58893fb13b30bebe@mail.gmail.com>

Why not just do a redirect from the old site?


On 9/6/07, Donna Snow <donnamsnow at gmail.com> wrote:
> We should just go ahead and make the new site live..I'm not sure who
> has that authority..access to dns..
>
> I'll work on the light green text and any other issues while it's live..
>
> (time is flying by.. seems like we just HAD a meeting!)
>
> If'n you have any questions while modifying.. let me know..
>
> Donna
>
> On 9/6/07, tpc247 at gmail.com <tpc247 at gmail.com> wrote:
> > hi guys, so I thought I'd take this opportunity to ask for the specifics of
> > this month's meeting so I can put to use the Plone skills Donna taught me.
> > The list has been quiet lately, but I wanted to get cracking on editing the
> > posting at http://baypiggies.net/new/plone
> > _______________________________________________
> > Baypiggies mailing list
> > Baypiggies at python.org
> > To change your subscription options or unsubscribe:
> > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies
> >
> _______________________________________________
> Baypiggies mailing list
> Baypiggies at python.org
> To change your subscription options or unsubscribe:
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies
>

From jim at well.com  Thu Sep  6 19:37:44 2007
From: jim at well.com (jim stockford)
Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2007 10:37:44 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] BayPIGgies meeting for this month
In-Reply-To: <bae1efdf0709060711v4bbbd784q416b20e3c2131fd2@mail.gmail.com>
References: <bae1efdf0709060711v4bbbd784q416b20e3c2131fd2@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5217f026149b4f208c7372f791c541a4@well.com>


    i understand policy is not to make announcements until
after the preceding thursday; apparently some people
confuse thursdays and have shown up at Google on the
wrong day. (this just in case someone wants to challenge
the policy or my understanding.)


    the september talk is
>>>>>> a soup-to-nuts overview of developing a software
>>>>>> product, from concept to release, entirely in Python.
>>>>>> This touches issues of design, why Python, choosing
>>>>>> modules and technologies, build or buy, hiring, tools,
>>>>>> working with open source, coding style, licensing
>>>>>> decisions, testing, building, packaging and release.
by Michael Pittaro of Snaplogic.
http://www.snaplogic.com


On Sep 6, 2007, at 7:11 AM, tpc247 at gmail.com wrote:

> hi guys, so I thought I'd take this opportunity to ask for the 
> specifics of this month's meeting so I can put to use the Plone skills 
> Donna taught me.? The list has been quiet lately, but I wanted to get 
> cracking on editing the posting at http://baypiggies.net/new/plone 
> _______________________________________________
> Baypiggies mailing list
> Baypiggies at python.org
> To change your subscription options or unsubscribe:
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies

From DennisR at dair.com  Thu Sep  6 19:49:49 2007
From: DennisR at dair.com (Dennis Reinhardt)
Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2007 10:49:49 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] BayPIGgies meeting for this month
In-Reply-To: <5217f026149b4f208c7372f791c541a4@well.com>
References: <bae1efdf0709060711v4bbbd784q416b20e3c2131fd2@mail.gmail.com>
	<bae1efdf0709060711v4bbbd784q416b20e3c2131fd2@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20070906104548.00bf4600@localhost>

At 10:37 AM 9/6/2007, jim stockford wrote:

>    i understand policy is not to make announcements until
>after the preceding thursday; apparently some people
>confuse thursdays and have shown up at Google on the
>wrong day. (this just in case someone wants to challenge
>the policy or my understanding.)

I started doing that.  I guess you could call that a policy.  I don't know 
of an actual instance of someone showing up on the wrong date.  I try to 
anticipate problems, not react to them.

More exactly, what I really did was email information to Donna for posting 
on the web site as soon as it was complete and final.  I held off making 
the announcement on the mailing list until Friday.

Regards, Dennis

  ---------------------------------
| Dennis    | DennisR at dair.com    |
| Reinhardt | http://www.dair.com |
  ---------------------------------


From jim at well.com  Thu Sep  6 19:58:43 2007
From: jim at well.com (jim stockford)
Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2007 10:58:43 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] BayPIGgies meeting for this month
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20070906104548.00bf4600@localhost>
References: <bae1efdf0709060711v4bbbd784q416b20e3c2131fd2@mail.gmail.com>
	<bae1efdf0709060711v4bbbd784q416b20e3c2131fd2@mail.gmail.com>
	<5.1.0.14.0.20070906104548.00bf4600@localhost>
Message-ID: <ce6e5376d234b505ea5a9a16f020d5b6@well.com>

thanks. i'll think some.

On Sep 6, 2007, at 10:49 AM, Dennis Reinhardt wrote:

> At 10:37 AM 9/6/2007, jim stockford wrote:
>
>>    i understand policy is not to make announcements until
>> after the preceding thursday; apparently some people
>> confuse thursdays and have shown up at Google on the
>> wrong day. (this just in case someone wants to challenge
>> the policy or my understanding.)
>
> I started doing that.  I guess you could call that a policy.  I don't 
> know
> of an actual instance of someone showing up on the wrong date.  I try 
> to
> anticipate problems, not react to them.
>
> More exactly, what I really did was email information to Donna for 
> posting
> on the web site as soon as it was complete and final.  I held off 
> making
> the announcement on the mailing list until Friday.
>
> Regards, Dennis
>
>   ---------------------------------
> | Dennis    | DennisR at dair.com    |
> | Reinhardt | http://www.dair.com |
>   ---------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> Baypiggies mailing list
> Baypiggies at python.org
> To change your subscription options or unsubscribe:
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies
>


From tpc247 at gmail.com  Fri Sep  7 13:24:29 2007
From: tpc247 at gmail.com (tpc247 at gmail.com)
Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2007 04:24:29 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] BayPIGgies meeting for this month
In-Reply-To: <baf0d46b0709060809g4d934681s76f622992787963c@mail.gmail.com>
References: <bae1efdf0709060711v4bbbd784q416b20e3c2131fd2@mail.gmail.com>
	<baf0d46b0709060809g4d934681s76f622992787963c@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <bae1efdf0709070424u19da181fud4d7df5a8d8b0f6b@mail.gmail.com>

hey guys, so thanks to Donna, who's forgotten more about Plone than I'll
ever know, there is now a perfunctory update at:

http://baypiggies.net/new/plone

with creative reuse and heavy lifting and sampling from Jim and the
designers of the original BayPIGgies front page.  Your respective
intellectual property royalty checks are in the mail.

On 9/6/07, Donna Snow <donnamsnow at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> We should just go ahead and make the new site live..I'm not sure who
> has that authority..access to dns..
>
> I'll work on the light green text and any other issues while it's live..
>
> (time is flying by.. seems like we just HAD a meeting!)
>
> If'n you have any questions while modifying.. let me know..
>
> Donna
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From donnamsnow at gmail.com  Fri Sep  7 21:18:00 2007
From: donnamsnow at gmail.com (Donna Snow)
Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2007 12:18:00 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] BayPIGgies meeting for this month
In-Reply-To: <bae1efdf0709070424u19da181fud4d7df5a8d8b0f6b@mail.gmail.com>
References: <bae1efdf0709060711v4bbbd784q416b20e3c2131fd2@mail.gmail.com>
	<baf0d46b0709060809g4d934681s76f622992787963c@mail.gmail.com>
	<bae1efdf0709070424u19da181fud4d7df5a8d8b0f6b@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <baf0d46b0709071218y5463083et170fad8561e82bf8@mail.gmail.com>

Beautiful! Our new site has been christened.. woohoo..

Do we want rsvp's on home page?.. I can look into installing that
product someone mentioned.. that allows registering for events..

I'll try to get that redirect to the new page working ... and as
mentioned previously.. css away that light green text..

Donna

On 9/7/07, tpc247 at gmail.com <tpc247 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> hey guys, so thanks to Donna, who's forgotten more about Plone than I'll
> ever know, there is now a perfunctory update at:
>
>  http://baypiggies.net/new/plone
>
> with creative reuse and heavy lifting and sampling from Jim and the
> designers of the original BayPIGgies front page.  Your respective
> intellectual property royalty checks are in the mail.
>
> On 9/6/07, Donna Snow <donnamsnow at gmail.com> wrote:
> > We should just go ahead and make the new site live..I'm not sure who
> > has that authority..access to dns..
> >
> > I'll work on the light green text and any other issues while it's live..
> >
> > (time is flying by.. seems like we just HAD a meeting!)
> >
> > If'n you have any questions while modifying.. let me know..
> >
> > Donna
>
>
>
>

From donnamsnow at gmail.com  Fri Sep  7 21:55:13 2007
From: donnamsnow at gmail.com (Donna Snow)
Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2007 12:55:13 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] [website] meeting archive updated
Message-ID: <baf0d46b0709071255k154b3068nf16fce180dbd0668@mail.gmail.com>

I added a [website] marker in subject and will continue to do so for
those who are not interested in any way shape or form on website
happenings...

As mentioned in subject.. the meeting archive on new site has been updated..
I think we have everything from old site now.. moved over to new..

This weekend I need to put the site in "debug" mode.. to make some
style changes and I'd like to install a couple of products we might
like... we discussed this a bit a few months ago...

but does it make sense to add any of the following?

Calendar (Plone4Artists Calendar)
(this way upcoming events like Anna's She's Geeky unconference could
be added... upcoming classes.. that sort of thing)
Video capabilities (Plone4Artists video)
Forum
Blog

I can't think of anything else that we'd utilize much... can you?

Donna

From cappy2112 at gmail.com  Fri Sep  7 22:34:33 2007
From: cappy2112 at gmail.com (Tony Cappellini)
Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2007 13:34:33 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] BayPIGgies meeting for this month
In-Reply-To: <baf0d46b0709071218y5463083et170fad8561e82bf8@mail.gmail.com>
References: <bae1efdf0709060711v4bbbd784q416b20e3c2131fd2@mail.gmail.com>
	<baf0d46b0709060809g4d934681s76f622992787963c@mail.gmail.com>
	<bae1efdf0709070424u19da181fud4d7df5a8d8b0f6b@mail.gmail.com>
	<baf0d46b0709071218y5463083et170fad8561e82bf8@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <8249c4ac0709071334w3b25f95cq1a927b7a5cf2d3ec@mail.gmail.com>

It might be a good idea to put the link to the google BP wiki- so when
people read the announcement for the meeting, they can click on the
wiki link and put their name on the list.

This link should be in such a location - so it doesn't move whenever
the site is updated for the current meeting.

On 9/7/07, Donna Snow <donnamsnow at gmail.com> wrote:
> Beautiful! Our new site has been christened.. woohoo..
>
> Do we want rsvp's on home page?.. I can look into installing that
> product someone mentioned.. that allows registering for events..
>
> I'll try to get that redirect to the new page working ... and as
> mentioned previously.. css away that light green text..
>
> Donna
>
> On 9/7/07, tpc247 at gmail.com <tpc247 at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > hey guys, so thanks to Donna, who's forgotten more about Plone than I'll
> > ever know, there is now a perfunctory update at:
> >
> >  http://baypiggies.net/new/plone
> >
> > with creative reuse and heavy lifting and sampling from Jim and the
> > designers of the original BayPIGgies front page.  Your respective
> > intellectual property royalty checks are in the mail.
> >
> > On 9/6/07, Donna Snow <donnamsnow at gmail.com> wrote:
> > > We should just go ahead and make the new site live..I'm not sure who
> > > has that authority..access to dns..
> > >
> > > I'll work on the light green text and any other issues while it's live..
> > >
> > > (time is flying by.. seems like we just HAD a meeting!)
> > >
> > > If'n you have any questions while modifying.. let me know..
> > >
> > > Donna
> >
> >
> >
> >
> _______________________________________________
> Baypiggies mailing list
> Baypiggies at python.org
> To change your subscription options or unsubscribe:
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies
>

From donnamsnow at gmail.com  Fri Sep  7 22:40:05 2007
From: donnamsnow at gmail.com (Donna Snow)
Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2007 13:40:05 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] BayPIGgies meeting for this month
In-Reply-To: <8249c4ac0709071334w3b25f95cq1a927b7a5cf2d3ec@mail.gmail.com>
References: <bae1efdf0709060711v4bbbd784q416b20e3c2131fd2@mail.gmail.com>
	<baf0d46b0709060809g4d934681s76f622992787963c@mail.gmail.com>
	<bae1efdf0709070424u19da181fud4d7df5a8d8b0f6b@mail.gmail.com>
	<baf0d46b0709071218y5463083et170fad8561e82bf8@mail.gmail.com>
	<8249c4ac0709071334w3b25f95cq1a927b7a5cf2d3ec@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <baf0d46b0709071340j490a2c02t7219571e54c3de60@mail.gmail.com>

OK I can put that in a portlet on the left hand side..

With something like...

Planning on attending our next meeting:
Add your name to the wiki and we'll have a badge
waiting for you in the lobby

Or something like that..

Donna

On 9/7/07, Tony Cappellini <cappy2112 at gmail.com> wrote:
> It might be a good idea to put the link to the google BP wiki- so when
> people read the announcement for the meeting, they can click on the
> wiki link and put their name on the list.
>
> This link should be in such a location - so it doesn't move whenever
> the site is updated for the current meeting.
>
> On 9/7/07, Donna Snow <donnamsnow at gmail.com> wrote:
> > Beautiful! Our new site has been christened.. woohoo..
> >
> > Do we want rsvp's on home page?.. I can look into installing that
> > product someone mentioned.. that allows registering for events..
> >
> > I'll try to get that redirect to the new page working ... and as
> > mentioned previously.. css away that light green text..
> >
> > Donna
> >
> > On 9/7/07, tpc247 at gmail.com <tpc247 at gmail.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > hey guys, so thanks to Donna, who's forgotten more about Plone than I'll
> > > ever know, there is now a perfunctory update at:
> > >
> > >  http://baypiggies.net/new/plone
> > >
> > > with creative reuse and heavy lifting and sampling from Jim and the
> > > designers of the original BayPIGgies front page.  Your respective
> > > intellectual property royalty checks are in the mail.
> > >
> > > On 9/6/07, Donna Snow <donnamsnow at gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > We should just go ahead and make the new site live..I'm not sure who
> > > > has that authority..access to dns..
> > > >
> > > > I'll work on the light green text and any other issues while it's live..
> > > >
> > > > (time is flying by.. seems like we just HAD a meeting!)
> > > >
> > > > If'n you have any questions while modifying.. let me know..
> > > >
> > > > Donna
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Baypiggies mailing list
> > Baypiggies at python.org
> > To change your subscription options or unsubscribe:
> > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies
> >
>

From spmcinerney at hotmail.com  Fri Sep  7 22:47:50 2007
From: spmcinerney at hotmail.com (Stephen McInerney)
Date: Fri, 07 Sep 2007 13:47:50 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] BayPIGgies meeting for this month
In-Reply-To: <baf0d46b0709071340j490a2c02t7219571e54c3de60@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <BAY111-F30E47DF85EA8E55AC48956A0C50@phx.gbl>

Can you make it possible to upload a photo?


>From: "Donna Snow" <donnamsnow at gmail.com>
>To: cappy2112 at gmail.com
>CC: baypiggies at python.org
>Subject: Re: [Baypiggies] BayPIGgies meeting for this month
>Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2007 13:40:05 -0700
>
>OK I can put that in a portlet on the left hand side..
>
>With something like...
>
>Planning on attending our next meeting:
>Add your name to the wiki and we'll have a badge
>waiting for you in the lobby
>
>Or something like that..
>
>Donna
>
>On 9/7/07, Tony Cappellini <cappy2112 at gmail.com> wrote:
> > It might be a good idea to put the link to the google BP wiki- so when
> > people read the announcement for the meeting, they can click on the
> > wiki link and put their name on the list.
> >
> > This link should be in such a location - so it doesn't move whenever
> > the site is updated for the current meeting.
> >
> > On 9/7/07, Donna Snow <donnamsnow at gmail.com> wrote:
> > > Beautiful! Our new site has been christened.. woohoo..
> > >
> > > Do we want rsvp's on home page?.. I can look into installing that
> > > product someone mentioned.. that allows registering for events..
> > >
> > > I'll try to get that redirect to the new page working ... and as
> > > mentioned previously.. css away that light green text..
> > >
> > > Donna
> > >
> > > On 9/7/07, tpc247 at gmail.com <tpc247 at gmail.com> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > hey guys, so thanks to Donna, who's forgotten more about Plone than 
>I'll
> > > > ever know, there is now a perfunctory update at:
> > > >
> > > >  http://baypiggies.net/new/plone
> > > >
> > > > with creative reuse and heavy lifting and sampling from Jim and the
> > > > designers of the original BayPIGgies front page.  Your respective
> > > > intellectual property royalty checks are in the mail.
> > > >
> > > > On 9/6/07, Donna Snow <donnamsnow at gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > > We should just go ahead and make the new site live..I'm not sure 
>who
> > > > > has that authority..access to dns..
> > > > >
> > > > > I'll work on the light green text and any other issues while it's 
>live..
> > > > >
> > > > > (time is flying by.. seems like we just HAD a meeting!)
> > > > >
> > > > > If'n you have any questions while modifying.. let me know..
> > > > >
> > > > > Donna
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Baypiggies mailing list
> > > Baypiggies at python.org
> > > To change your subscription options or unsubscribe:
> > > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies
> > >
> >
>_______________________________________________
>Baypiggies mailing list
>Baypiggies at python.org
>To change your subscription options or unsubscribe:
>http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies

_________________________________________________________________
Share your special parenting moments! 
http://www.reallivemoms.com?ocid=TXT_TAGHM&loc=us


From donnamsnow at gmail.com  Fri Sep  7 22:54:03 2007
From: donnamsnow at gmail.com (Donna Snow)
Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2007 13:54:03 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] BayPIGgies meeting for this month
In-Reply-To: <BAY111-F30E47DF85EA8E55AC48956A0C50@phx.gbl>
References: <baf0d46b0709071340j490a2c02t7219571e54c3de60@mail.gmail.com>
	<BAY111-F30E47DF85EA8E55AC48956A0C50@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <baf0d46b0709071354v61444751i70bbd1a1deac05b0@mail.gmail.com>

Plone allows for upload of images.. in member folders and throughout
the site.. we can also create a photo album with a content view.. (add
a directory, upload images.. then set the display view to
"thumbnails")

Did you want a portlet on the homepage that displayed photos? or maybe
a link from the top nav that goes to a section where we can upload
photos from meetings/events and create a photo album?

Donna




On 9/7/07, Stephen McInerney <spmcinerney at hotmail.com> wrote:
> Can you make it possible to upload a photo?
>
>
> >From: "Donna Snow" <donnamsnow at gmail.com>
> >To: cappy2112 at gmail.com
> >CC: baypiggies at python.org
> >Subject: Re: [Baypiggies] BayPIGgies meeting for this month
> >Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2007 13:40:05 -0700
> >
> >OK I can put that in a portlet on the left hand side..
> >
> >With something like...
> >
> >Planning on attending our next meeting:
> >Add your name to the wiki and we'll have a badge
> >waiting for you in the lobby
> >
> >Or something like that..
> >
> >Donna
> >
> >On 9/7/07, Tony Cappellini <cappy2112 at gmail.com> wrote:
> > > It might be a good idea to put the link to the google BP wiki- so when
> > > people read the announcement for the meeting, they can click on the
> > > wiki link and put their name on the list.
> > >
> > > This link should be in such a location - so it doesn't move whenever
> > > the site is updated for the current meeting.
> > >
> > > On 9/7/07, Donna Snow <donnamsnow at gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > Beautiful! Our new site has been christened.. woohoo..
> > > >
> > > > Do we want rsvp's on home page?.. I can look into installing that
> > > > product someone mentioned.. that allows registering for events..
> > > >
> > > > I'll try to get that redirect to the new page working ... and as
> > > > mentioned previously.. css away that light green text..
> > > >
> > > > Donna
> > > >
> > > > On 9/7/07, tpc247 at gmail.com <tpc247 at gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > hey guys, so thanks to Donna, who's forgotten more about Plone than
> >I'll
> > > > > ever know, there is now a perfunctory update at:
> > > > >
> > > > >  http://baypiggies.net/new/plone
> > > > >
> > > > > with creative reuse and heavy lifting and sampling from Jim and the
> > > > > designers of the original BayPIGgies front page.  Your respective
> > > > > intellectual property royalty checks are in the mail.
> > > > >
> > > > > On 9/6/07, Donna Snow <donnamsnow at gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > > > We should just go ahead and make the new site live..I'm not sure
> >who
> > > > > > has that authority..access to dns..
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I'll work on the light green text and any other issues while it's
> >live..
> > > > > >
> > > > > > (time is flying by.. seems like we just HAD a meeting!)
> > > > > >
> > > > > > If'n you have any questions while modifying.. let me know..
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Donna
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Baypiggies mailing list
> > > > Baypiggies at python.org
> > > > To change your subscription options or unsubscribe:
> > > > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies
> > > >
> > >
> >_______________________________________________
> >Baypiggies mailing list
> >Baypiggies at python.org
> >To change your subscription options or unsubscribe:
> >http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Share your special parenting moments!
> http://www.reallivemoms.com?ocid=TXT_TAGHM&loc=us
>
>

From spmcinerney at hotmail.com  Fri Sep  7 23:05:14 2007
From: spmcinerney at hotmail.com (Stephen McInerney)
Date: Fri, 07 Sep 2007 14:05:14 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] BayPIGgies meeting for this month
In-Reply-To: <baf0d46b0709071354v61444751i70bbd1a1deac05b0@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <BAY111-F244556B1F158F504AA8A76A0C50@phx.gbl>

Just something simple that allows each user to associate a photo with their 
name.

For security, each person should only be allowed modify their own picture.

Stephen

>From: "Donna Snow" <donnamsnow at gmail.com>
>To: "Stephen McInerney" <spmcinerney at hotmail.com>
>CC: cappy2112 at gmail.com, baypiggies at python.org
>Subject: Re: [Baypiggies] BayPIGgies meeting for this month
>Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2007 13:54:03 -0700
>
>Plone allows for upload of images.. in member folders and throughout
>the site.. we can also create a photo album with a content view.. (add
>a directory, upload images.. then set the display view to
>"thumbnails")
>
>Did you want a portlet on the homepage that displayed photos? or maybe
>a link from the top nav that goes to a section where we can upload
>photos from meetings/events and create a photo album?
>
>Donna
>
>
>
>
>On 9/7/07, Stephen McInerney <spmcinerney at hotmail.com> wrote:
> > Can you make it possible to upload a photo?
> >
> >
> > >From: "Donna Snow" <donnamsnow at gmail.com>
> > >To: cappy2112 at gmail.com
> > >CC: baypiggies at python.org
> > >Subject: Re: [Baypiggies] BayPIGgies meeting for this month
> > >Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2007 13:40:05 -0700
> > >
> > >OK I can put that in a portlet on the left hand side..
> > >
> > >With something like...
> > >
> > >Planning on attending our next meeting:
> > >Add your name to the wiki and we'll have a badge
> > >waiting for you in the lobby
> > >
> > >Or something like that..
> > >
> > >Donna
> > >
> > >On 9/7/07, Tony Cappellini <cappy2112 at gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > It might be a good idea to put the link to the google BP wiki- so 
>when
> > > > people read the announcement for the meeting, they can click on the
> > > > wiki link and put their name on the list.
> > > >
> > > > This link should be in such a location - so it doesn't move whenever
> > > > the site is updated for the current meeting.
> > > >
> > > > On 9/7/07, Donna Snow <donnamsnow at gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > > Beautiful! Our new site has been christened.. woohoo..
> > > > >
> > > > > Do we want rsvp's on home page?.. I can look into installing that
> > > > > product someone mentioned.. that allows registering for events..
> > > > >
> > > > > I'll try to get that redirect to the new page working ... and as
> > > > > mentioned previously.. css away that light green text..
> > > > >
> > > > > Donna
> > > > >
> > > > > On 9/7/07, tpc247 at gmail.com <tpc247 at gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > hey guys, so thanks to Donna, who's forgotten more about Plone 
>than
> > >I'll
> > > > > > ever know, there is now a perfunctory update at:
> > > > > >
> > > > > >  http://baypiggies.net/new/plone
> > > > > >
> > > > > > with creative reuse and heavy lifting and sampling from Jim and 
>the
> > > > > > designers of the original BayPIGgies front page.  Your 
>respective
> > > > > > intellectual property royalty checks are in the mail.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On 9/6/07, Donna Snow <donnamsnow at gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > > > > We should just go ahead and make the new site live..I'm not 
>sure
> > >who
> > > > > > > has that authority..access to dns..
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I'll work on the light green text and any other issues while 
>it's
> > >live..
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > (time is flying by.. seems like we just HAD a meeting!)
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > If'n you have any questions while modifying.. let me know..
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Donna
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > Baypiggies mailing list
> > > > > Baypiggies at python.org
> > > > > To change your subscription options or unsubscribe:
> > > > > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >_______________________________________________
> > >Baypiggies mailing list
> > >Baypiggies at python.org
> > >To change your subscription options or unsubscribe:
> > >http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies
> >
> > _________________________________________________________________
> > Share your special parenting moments!
> > http://www.reallivemoms.com?ocid=TXT_TAGHM&loc=us
> >
> >

_________________________________________________________________
Discover sweet stuff waiting for you at the Messenger Cafe.? Claim your 
treat today! 
http://www.cafemessenger.com/info/info_sweetstuff.html?ocid=TXT_TAGHM_SeptHMtagline2


From donnamsnow at gmail.com  Fri Sep  7 23:21:53 2007
From: donnamsnow at gmail.com (Donna Snow)
Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2007 14:21:53 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] BayPIGgies meeting for this month
In-Reply-To: <BAY111-F244556B1F158F504AA8A76A0C50@phx.gbl>
References: <baf0d46b0709071354v61444751i70bbd1a1deac05b0@mail.gmail.com>
	<BAY111-F244556B1F158F504AA8A76A0C50@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <baf0d46b0709071421q70e18520x26414212b03fb964@mail.gmail.com>

When you are logged in to the site.. you'll see a "personal_toolbar"
just below the green horizontal navigation...

Click on preferences...

Then again on personal preferences (there will be a personal
preferences link and a change password link)

At the bottom of http://www.baypiggies.net/new/plone/personalize_form
there is the ability to upload a portrait (or photo) .. this is only
editable by the member.. (noone else can change this..)

This is also where you can add other information for your
/Members/username page...
A profile page essentially...

Donna

On 9/7/07, Stephen McInerney <spmcinerney at hotmail.com> wrote:
> Just something simple that allows each user to associate a photo with their
> name.
>
> For security, each person should only be allowed modify their own picture.
>
> Stephen
>
> >From: "Donna Snow" <donnamsnow at gmail.com>
> >To: "Stephen McInerney" <spmcinerney at hotmail.com>
> >CC: cappy2112 at gmail.com, baypiggies at python.org
> >Subject: Re: [Baypiggies] BayPIGgies meeting for this month
> >Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2007 13:54:03 -0700
> >
> >Plone allows for upload of images.. in member folders and throughout
> >the site.. we can also create a photo album with a content view.. (add
> >a directory, upload images.. then set the display view to
> >"thumbnails")
> >
> >Did you want a portlet on the homepage that displayed photos? or maybe
> >a link from the top nav that goes to a section where we can upload
> >photos from meetings/events and create a photo album?
> >
> >Donna
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >On 9/7/07, Stephen McInerney <spmcinerney at hotmail.com> wrote:
> > > Can you make it possible to upload a photo?
> > >
> > >
> > > >From: "Donna Snow" <donnamsnow at gmail.com>
> > > >To: cappy2112 at gmail.com
> > > >CC: baypiggies at python.org
> > > >Subject: Re: [Baypiggies] BayPIGgies meeting for this month
> > > >Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2007 13:40:05 -0700
> > > >
> > > >OK I can put that in a portlet on the left hand side..
> > > >
> > > >With something like...
> > > >
> > > >Planning on attending our next meeting:
> > > >Add your name to the wiki and we'll have a badge
> > > >waiting for you in the lobby
> > > >
> > > >Or something like that..
> > > >
> > > >Donna
> > > >
> > > >On 9/7/07, Tony Cappellini <cappy2112 at gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > > It might be a good idea to put the link to the google BP wiki- so
> >when
> > > > > people read the announcement for the meeting, they can click on the
> > > > > wiki link and put their name on the list.
> > > > >
> > > > > This link should be in such a location - so it doesn't move whenever
> > > > > the site is updated for the current meeting.
> > > > >
> > > > > On 9/7/07, Donna Snow <donnamsnow at gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > > > Beautiful! Our new site has been christened.. woohoo..
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Do we want rsvp's on home page?.. I can look into installing that
> > > > > > product someone mentioned.. that allows registering for events..
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I'll try to get that redirect to the new page working ... and as
> > > > > > mentioned previously.. css away that light green text..
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Donna
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On 9/7/07, tpc247 at gmail.com <tpc247 at gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > hey guys, so thanks to Donna, who's forgotten more about Plone
> >than
> > > >I'll
> > > > > > > ever know, there is now a perfunctory update at:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >  http://baypiggies.net/new/plone
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > with creative reuse and heavy lifting and sampling from Jim and
> >the
> > > > > > > designers of the original BayPIGgies front page.  Your
> >respective
> > > > > > > intellectual property royalty checks are in the mail.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > On 9/6/07, Donna Snow <donnamsnow at gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > > > > > We should just go ahead and make the new site live..I'm not
> >sure
> > > >who
> > > > > > > > has that authority..access to dns..
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I'll work on the light green text and any other issues while
> >it's
> > > >live..
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > (time is flying by.. seems like we just HAD a meeting!)
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > If'n you have any questions while modifying.. let me know..
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Donna
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > > Baypiggies mailing list
> > > > > > Baypiggies at python.org
> > > > > > To change your subscription options or unsubscribe:
> > > > > > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >_______________________________________________
> > > >Baypiggies mailing list
> > > >Baypiggies at python.org
> > > >To change your subscription options or unsubscribe:
> > > >http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies
> > >
> > > _________________________________________________________________
> > > Share your special parenting moments!
> > > http://www.reallivemoms.com?ocid=TXT_TAGHM&loc=us
> > >
> > >
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Discover sweet stuff waiting for you at the Messenger Cafe. Claim your
> treat today!
> http://www.cafemessenger.com/info/info_sweetstuff.html?ocid=TXT_TAGHM_SeptHMtagline2
>
>

From spmcinerney at hotmail.com  Mon Sep 10 02:31:19 2007
From: spmcinerney at hotmail.com (Stephen McInerney)
Date: Sun, 09 Sep 2007 17:31:19 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] Suggested books for Agile Programming & Testing?
Message-ID: <BAY111-F3685BD79DCC7E60F354F80A0C00@phx.gbl>


Can anyone recommend me the best single must-read book for Agile 
Programming?
Also Agile Testing.

(If they compare Agile in general to the other methodologies, that would be 
great)

Also, can anyone comment on the limits or caveats of agile development?

Thanks,
Stephen

_________________________________________________________________
Kick back and relax with hot games and cool activities at the Messenger 
Caf?. http://www.cafemessenger.com?ocid=TXT_TAGHM_SeptHMtagline1


From walterv at gbbservices.com  Mon Sep 10 04:04:23 2007
From: walterv at gbbservices.com (Walter Vannini)
Date: Sun, 09 Sep 2007 22:04:23 -0400
Subject: [Baypiggies] ACCU meeting on Wednesday
Message-ID: <46E4A627.3070402@gbbservices.com>

Feel free to forward this notice to anyone who is interested.

When:      Wednesday, September 12, 2007
Topic:     Some Python Patterns for Multitasking
             and Event-Driven Processing
Speaker:   Alex Martelli
Time:      7:00pm
Where:     VMware
                3210 Porter Drive
                Palo Alto, CA 94304
               (Please don't go to the other VMware building
                on the same street.)
Map:       <http://tinyurl.com/3965zb>
Cost:      Free
More Info: <http://www.accu-usa.org>
Speaker:   Alex Martelli

Doing multiple things at once -- or, at least, giving the appearance of
so doing -- is an obvious and inescapable necessity in almost all
programming areas today. This talk shows some architecture, design and
coding patterns (focused on the Python programming language) supporting
such needs, from event-driven processing, to threading (preemptive and
non), to some highly scalable approaches based on multiple processes
possibly running on multiple processors.

The talk's audience should have at least some modest previous exposure
to Python, but will not necessarily need previous knowledge of either
event-driven processing or multitasking.

Alex Martelli is Uber Technical Lead at Google, Inc. Alex holds a laurea
in Ingegneria Elettronica from Bologna University. He wrote Python in a
Nutshell, and also co-edited the Python Cookbook. He's a member of the
Python Software Foundation, and won the 2002 Activators' Choice Award
and the 2006 Frank Willison Memorial Award.

Alex spent 8 years with IBM Research (earning three Outstanding
Technical Achievement Awards), 12 years as senior consultant (Win32,
Fortran, C, C++, Java, etc) at Think3 inc, and 3 years as a Python
freelance consultant (mostly for AB Strakt). He has taught Programming,
Numerical Computing, and Object Oriented Design at Ferrara University
and other venues.

The ACCU meets monthly. To suggest topics and speakers please email
Walter Vannini via walterv at gbbservices.com

Walter Vannini
<http://www.accu-usa.org/>
<http://www.gbbservices.com/>





From jim at well.com  Mon Sep 10 09:19:50 2007
From: jim at well.com (jim stockford)
Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2007 00:19:50 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] September meeting Thursday 9/13 -- Developing a Python
	Product
Message-ID: <52ccde077856fc67bd5fabbec6256c56@well.com>



Thursday, September 13, 2007:
Developing a Software Product, from concept to release,
entirely in Python

Location: Google

bayPIGgies meeting information:
http://baypiggies.net/new/plone

sign up to have google access badges ready:
http://wiki.python.org/moin/BayPiggiesGoogleMeetings


Agenda-----------------------------

..... 7:30 PM ...........................
General hubbub, inventory end-of-meeting announcements,
any first-minute announcements.

..... 7:35 PM to 8:45 PM ................

Topic: Developing a software product, from concept to
release, entirely in Python
by Mike Pittaro of SnapLogic

A soup-to-nuts overview of developing a software
product, from concept to release, entirely in Python.
This touches issues of design, why Python, choosing
modules and technologies, build or buy, hiring, tools,
working with open source, coding style, licensing
decisions, testing, building, packaging and release.

Mike Pittaro started the SnapLogic project in 2005
with the goal of simplifying data integration with a
fundamentally new approach.

Mike has worked in the data analysis and data integration
space for the past 12 years. He built his first financial
data mart in 1996, and later worked on pool selection
analysis for the asset-backed securitization industry.
Mike joined Informatica in 1997, where he worked on product
advocacy and developed the support infrastructure for the
Global Support Organization which used a mixture of
commercial and Open Source software to enable collaboration
and resource sharing across five distributed support centers.
Prior to that he worked in the high performance computer
industry, optimizing Fortran and C programs for massively
parallel computers. Mike graduated from the Sligo Institute
of Technology in 1983.

http://www.snaplogic.org/


..... 8:45 PM to 9:00 PM ................
Mapping/Random Access

Mapping is a rapid-fire audience announcement of topics the announcers
are interested in.

Random Access follows immediately to allow follow up individually on
topics of interest.


..... The October Meeting  ................
TBD


From lhawthorn at google.com  Mon Sep 10 19:19:07 2007
From: lhawthorn at google.com (Leslie Hawthorn)
Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2007 10:19:07 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] please register on the wiki for 9/13 meeting
Message-ID: <4869cee70709101019v404b4084k1e2e7c7f44404a0d@mail.gmail.com>

Hello everyone,

If you are planning on attending this Thursday's meeting on 9/13, please
register on the wiki: http://wiki.python.org/moin/BayPiggiesGoogleMeetings

Please register by 5 PM on Wednesday, 9/12.  The meeting will be held in
Tunis Tech Talk, 2nd Flr, 43 (the 'usual' location).

Cheers,
LH

-- 
Leslie Hawthorn
Program Manager - Open Source
Google Inc.

http://code.google.com
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From spmcinerney at hotmail.com  Tue Sep 11 14:44:28 2007
From: spmcinerney at hotmail.com (Stephen McInerney)
Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2007 05:44:28 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] Suggested books for Agile Programming & Testing?
In-Reply-To: <46E49ACC.3010507@tds.net>
Message-ID: <BAY111-F23E4A2497928685AD1703FA0C10@phx.gbl>

[Forwarding a very helpful reply from Kent Johnson on python-tutor.
I would greatly appreciate any other opinions on this or other books - 
Stephen]

Kent> Quoting myself from the archives:

I recommend Robert Martin's
"Agile Software Development: Principles, Patterns, and Practices"
http://www.objectmentor.com/resources/bookstore/books/AgileSoftwareDevelopmentPPP

This is the best book I know for learning object-oriented design the
way I do it ;) - a very agile, pragmatic approach. It shows you the
nitty-gritty details of how to create classes as you develop a
solution. Also a good introduction to the agile development style.

Much of the content of the book is available as essays on the
ObjectMentor website: http://w
ww.objectmentor.com/resources/listArticles?key=author&author=Robert%20C.%20Martin

-----------------------------------

Some of the highlights from my bookshelf:

Martin, Agile Software Development
http://www.objectmentor.com/resources/bookstore/books/AgileSoftwareDevelopmentPPP

Fowler, Refactoring: Improving the Design of Existing Code
http://martinfowler.com/books.html#refactoring

Beck, Extreme Programming Explained
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0201616416/ref%3Dnosim/armaties/102-7636110-6481700

Kent

_________________________________________________________________
Gear up for Halo? 3 with free downloads and an exclusive offer. 
http://gethalo3gear.com?ocid=SeptemberWLHalo3_MSNHMTxt_1


From spmcinerney at hotmail.com  Tue Sep 11 16:11:18 2007
From: spmcinerney at hotmail.com (Stephen McInerney)
Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2007 07:11:18 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] Guido's Blog: It isn't Easy to Remove the GIL
Message-ID: <BAY111-F3575072295DC29BB46E77DA0C10@phx.gbl>

[A great discussion of something complex which I was too timid to ask about 
on the list:]
Article: http://www.artima.com/weblogs/viewpost.jsp?thread=214235
Responses: http://www.artima.com/forums/flat.jsp?forum=106&thread=214235

- Essentially the GIL will not go away and the C-implementation of Python
will stay single-threaded, unless some code wizard _other than Guido_ goes 
through the effort of
removing it (e.g. for 3.0), and showing that its removal doesn't slow down 
single-threaded Python code.
- Includes description of the unpromising prior attempt at this on a fork of 
1.5 with 2x slowdown

Guido> "[...] I'd welcome it if someone did another experiment along the 
lines of Greg's patch (which I haven't found online), and I'd welcome a set 
of patches into Py3k only if the performance for a single-threaded program 
(and for a multi-threaded but I/O-bound program) does not decrease.

I would also be happy if someone volunteered to maintain a GIL-free fork of 
Python, in case that the single-threaded performance goal can't be met but 
there is significant value for multi-threaded CPU-bound applications. We 
might even end up with all the changes permanently part of the code base, 
but enabled only on request at compile time.

However, I want to warn that there are many downsides to removing the GIL. 
It complicates life for extension modules, who can no longer expect that 
they are invoked in a "safe zone" protected by the GIL -- as soon as an 
extension has any global mutable data, will have to be prepared with 
concurrent calls from multiple threads. There might also be changes in the 
Python/C API necessitated by the need to lock certain objects for the 
duration of a sequence of calls.

While it is my personal opinion, based upon the above considerations, that 
there isn't enough value in removing the GIL to warrant the effort, I will 
welcome and support attempts to show that times have changed. However, there 
is no point in pleading alone -- Python is open source and I have my hands 
full dealing with the efforts to produce a quality 3.0 language definition 
and implementation on time. I want to point out one more time that the 
language doesn't require the GIL -- it's only the CPython virtual machine 
that has historically been unable to shed it."

_________________________________________________________________
Get a FREE small business Web site and more from Microsoft? Office Live! 
http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/aub0930003811mrt/direct/01/


From annaraven at gmail.com  Tue Sep 11 17:08:09 2007
From: annaraven at gmail.com (Anna Ravenscroft)
Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2007 08:08:09 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] please register on the wiki for 9/13 meeting
In-Reply-To: <4869cee70709101019v404b4084k1e2e7c7f44404a0d@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4869cee70709101019v404b4084k1e2e7c7f44404a0d@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <cb361a610709110808p3c704a9cua1d66fe213350678@mail.gmail.com>

Just FYI - this Thursday at Google is going to be crazy (they have an
event going on). Be sure to sign up on the wiki for badges AND arrive
early to park and take the shuttle up from shoreline amphitheatre.


-- 
cordially,
Anna
--
Walking through the water. Trying to get across.
Just like everybody else.

From cappy2112 at gmail.com  Tue Sep 11 18:57:35 2007
From: cappy2112 at gmail.com (Tony Cappellini)
Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2007 09:57:35 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] please register on the wiki for 9/13 meeting
In-Reply-To: <cb361a610709110808p3c704a9cua1d66fe213350678@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4869cee70709101019v404b4084k1e2e7c7f44404a0d@mail.gmail.com>
	<cb361a610709110808p3c704a9cua1d66fe213350678@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <8249c4ac0709110957yf62bfa7oc87e33109286a6cc@mail.gmail.com>

>From Shoreline?

Will there be someone directing google visitors where to park at Shoreline?
What time will the shuttle service going back to shoreline stop running?

I sure hope there is not a concert going on at Shoreline on Thursday.


On 9/11/07, Anna Ravenscroft <annaraven at gmail.com> wrote:
> Just FYI - this Thursday at Google is going to be crazy (they have an
> event going on). Be sure to sign up on the wiki for badges AND arrive
> early to park and take the shuttle up from shoreline amphitheatre.
>
>
> --
> cordially,
> Anna

From annaraven at gmail.com  Tue Sep 11 19:26:51 2007
From: annaraven at gmail.com (Anna Ravenscroft)
Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2007 10:26:51 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] please register on the wiki for 9/13 meeting
In-Reply-To: <8249c4ac0709110957yf62bfa7oc87e33109286a6cc@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4869cee70709101019v404b4084k1e2e7c7f44404a0d@mail.gmail.com>
	<cb361a610709110808p3c704a9cua1d66fe213350678@mail.gmail.com>
	<8249c4ac0709110957yf62bfa7oc87e33109286a6cc@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <cb361a610709111026k77ece460ob91e9eb6360ec1a2@mail.gmail.com>

On 9/11/07, Tony Cappellini <cappy2112 at gmail.com> wrote:
> From Shoreline?
>
> Will there be someone directing google visitors where to park at Shoreline?
> What time will the shuttle service going back to shoreline stop running?

Go up amphitheatre parkway past the Google entrance. Parking is on
your left hand at Shoreline Amphitheatre. Shuttles go pretty late.

> I sure hope there is not a concert going on at Shoreline on Thursday.

Google has the parking lot reserved, I believe.

>From the other event:
Parking: Due to limited parking on the main campus, we have arranged
Google buses to shuttle you from the Shoreline/Amphitheatre parking
lot to the Googleplex where the event will be taking place. The buses
will have signs labeled "Engineering Open House". Once picked up, the
buses will drop off between buildings 40 & 41 on the Amphitheater side
of the main campus. Signage and Security will clearly direct you to
registration. Shuttles will run from 5:15 pm - 6:45 pm and 8:00 pm -
9:30 pm. A map is attached for your reference.

Note to BayPiggies - you can ride these buses and just go to the lobby of 43.

-- 
cordially,
Anna
--
Walking through the water. Trying to get across.
Just like everybody else.

From lhawthorn at google.com  Tue Sep 11 19:37:16 2007
From: lhawthorn at google.com (Leslie Hawthorn)
Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2007 10:37:16 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] please register on the wiki for 9/13 meeting
In-Reply-To: <cb361a610709111034k4bfd3da1sca714d36750a1a6c@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4869cee70709101019v404b4084k1e2e7c7f44404a0d@mail.gmail.com>
	<cb361a610709110808p3c704a9cua1d66fe213350678@mail.gmail.com>
	<8249c4ac0709110957yf62bfa7oc87e33109286a6cc@mail.gmail.com>
	<cb361a610709111026k77ece460ob91e9eb6360ec1a2@mail.gmail.com>
	<cb361a610709111034k4bfd3da1sca714d36750a1a6c@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4869cee70709111037w5e51852ft6c81edc6ff024d61@mail.gmail.com>

On 9/11/07, Anna Ravenscroft <annaraven at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Here's a link to a map for parking:
>
> http://maps.google.com/maps?f=d&hl=en&geocode=4778567676574772596,37.423359,-122.077955&saddr=1600+Amphitheatre+Pkwy,+Mountain+View,+CA+94043&daddr=37.424656,-122.080572&mrcr=0&mrsp=1&sz=17&mra=dme&sll=37.423195,-122.08144&sspn=0.004405,0.008626&ie=UTF8&t=h&z=17&om=1


Thank you Anna.

Security knows to direct folks visiting for the Baypiggies meeting this
month to the Lobby of Building 43 for check-in.  If I get any further
updates from them, I'll post to the list.

Cheers,
LH




-- 
Leslie Hawthorn
Program Manager - Open Source
Google Inc.

http://code.google.com
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From annaraven at gmail.com  Tue Sep 11 19:34:29 2007
From: annaraven at gmail.com (Anna Ravenscroft)
Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2007 10:34:29 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] please register on the wiki for 9/13 meeting
In-Reply-To: <cb361a610709111026k77ece460ob91e9eb6360ec1a2@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4869cee70709101019v404b4084k1e2e7c7f44404a0d@mail.gmail.com>
	<cb361a610709110808p3c704a9cua1d66fe213350678@mail.gmail.com>
	<8249c4ac0709110957yf62bfa7oc87e33109286a6cc@mail.gmail.com>
	<cb361a610709111026k77ece460ob91e9eb6360ec1a2@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <cb361a610709111034k4bfd3da1sca714d36750a1a6c@mail.gmail.com>

Here's a link to a map for parking:
http://maps.google.com/maps?f=d&hl=en&geocode=4778567676574772596,37.423359,-122.077955&saddr=1600+Amphitheatre+Pkwy,+Mountain+View,+CA+94043&daddr=37.424656,-122.080572&mrcr=0&mrsp=1&sz=17&mra=dme&sll=37.423195,-122.08144&sspn=0.004405,0.008626&ie=UTF8&t=h&z=17&om=1


-- 
cordially,
Anna
--
Walking through the water. Trying to get across.
Just like everybody else.

From walterv at gbbservices.com  Wed Sep 12 16:17:16 2007
From: walterv at gbbservices.com (Walter Vannini)
Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2007 10:17:16 -0400
Subject: [Baypiggies] ACCU meeting tonight
Message-ID: <46E7F4EC.3030300@gbbservices.com>

Feel free to forward this notice to anyone who is interested.

When:      Wednesday, September 12, 2007
Topic:     Some Python Patterns for Multitasking
             and Event-Driven Processing
Speaker:   Alex Martelli
Time:      7:00pm
Where:     VMware
                3210 Porter Drive
                Palo Alto, CA 94304
               (Please don't go to the other VMware building
                on the same street.)
Map:       <http://tinyurl.com/3965zb>
Cost:      Free
More Info: <http://www.accu-usa.org>
Speaker:   Alex Martelli

Doing multiple things at once -- or, at least, giving the appearance of
so doing -- is an obvious and inescapable necessity in almost all
programming areas today. This talk shows some architecture, design and
coding patterns (focused on the Python programming language) supporting
such needs, from event-driven processing, to threading (preemptive and
non), to some highly scalable approaches based on multiple processes
possibly running on multiple processors.

The talk's audience should have at least some modest previous exposure
to Python, but will not necessarily need previous knowledge of either
event-driven processing or multitasking.

Alex Martelli is Uber Technical Lead at Google, Inc. Alex holds a laurea
in Ingegneria Elettronica from Bologna University. He wrote Python in a
Nutshell, and also co-edited the Python Cookbook. He's a member of the
Python Software Foundation, and won the 2002 Activators' Choice Award
and the 2006 Frank Willison Memorial Award.

Alex spent 8 years with IBM Research (earning three Outstanding
Technical Achievement Awards), 12 years as senior consultant (Win32,
Fortran, C, C++, Java, etc) at Think3 inc, and 3 years as a Python
freelance consultant (mostly for AB Strakt). He has taught Programming,
Numerical Computing, and Object Oriented Design at Ferrara University
and other venues.

The ACCU meets monthly. To suggest topics and speakers please email
Walter Vannini via walterv at gbbservices.com

Walter Vannini
<http://www.accu-usa.org/>
<http://www.gbbservices.com/>







From jjinux at gmail.com  Fri Sep 14 00:09:41 2007
From: jjinux at gmail.com (Shannon -jj Behrens)
Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2007 15:09:41 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] Guido's Blog: It isn't Easy to Remove the GIL
In-Reply-To: <BAY111-F3575072295DC29BB46E77DA0C10@phx.gbl>
References: <BAY111-F3575072295DC29BB46E77DA0C10@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <c41f67b90709131509k62bae79eq48f6a9178873b97@mail.gmail.com>

On 9/11/07, Stephen McInerney <spmcinerney at hotmail.com> wrote:
> [A great discussion of something complex which I was too timid to ask about
> on the list:]
> Article: http://www.artima.com/weblogs/viewpost.jsp?thread=214235
> Responses: http://www.artima.com/forums/flat.jsp?forum=106&thread=214235
>
> - Essentially the GIL will not go away and the C-implementation of Python
> will stay single-threaded, unless some code wizard _other than Guido_ goes
> through the effort of
> removing it (e.g. for 3.0), and showing that its removal doesn't slow down
> single-threaded Python code.
> - Includes description of the unpromising prior attempt at this on a fork of
> 1.5 with 2x slowdown
>
> Guido> "[...] I'd welcome it if someone did another experiment along the
> lines of Greg's patch (which I haven't found online), and I'd welcome a set
> of patches into Py3k only if the performance for a single-threaded program
> (and for a multi-threaded but I/O-bound program) does not decrease.
>
> I would also be happy if someone volunteered to maintain a GIL-free fork of
> Python, in case that the single-threaded performance goal can't be met but
> there is significant value for multi-threaded CPU-bound applications. We
> might even end up with all the changes permanently part of the code base,
> but enabled only on request at compile time.
>
> However, I want to warn that there are many downsides to removing the GIL.
> It complicates life for extension modules, who can no longer expect that
> they are invoked in a "safe zone" protected by the GIL -- as soon as an
> extension has any global mutable data, will have to be prepared with
> concurrent calls from multiple threads. There might also be changes in the
> Python/C API necessitated by the need to lock certain objects for the
> duration of a sequence of calls.
>
> While it is my personal opinion, based upon the above considerations, that
> there isn't enough value in removing the GIL to warrant the effort, I will
> welcome and support attempts to show that times have changed. However, there
> is no point in pleading alone -- Python is open source and I have my hands
> full dealing with the efforts to produce a quality 3.0 language definition
> and implementation on time. I want to point out one more time that the
> language doesn't require the GIL -- it's only the CPython virtual machine
> that has historically been unable to shed it."

<jj crazy mode>
For several months, I've been fascinated by the idea of a Pythonic
version of Erlang.  The most important thing is to combine
Erlang-style concurrency with Python's elegant syntax.

However, there are some real challenges here.  In Python, classes,
instances, modules, etc. are dicts, which is a fundamental problem
when trying to support Erlang-style concurrency.  Message passing
(within process) is cheap in Erlang because they can pass by reference
instead of by value and rest assured that the data will not be
modified.  Remember, Erlang gets away from the need for locks because
two "processes" cannot modify the same data.  That's a real challenge
for a language like Python where even writing a def is adding a new
value to a dict (for the class or module).  Sure, you can make it so
that you can only pass tuples of strings and ints, but that's no fun
because what you probably want to pass is some combination of dicts,
lists, and instances.

In Haskell, there's a tree data type that is optimized for
non-destructive updates.  Just like you can create a new list by
consing an element with another list without harming the other list,
you can do the same thing with a tree.  Of course, it's a little less
efficient than "updating" a list.  I wonder if it'd be possible to
replace Python's reliance on dicts with such a tree.  Hence, adding a
new def would update your own processes view of the tree without
harming the old tree which all the other processes are pointing to.

There are other difficulties, but if I actually had two years of free
time and about 20 extra IQ points, and money to live on, I'd probably
take a shot at it ;)

/me giggles
</jj crazy mode>

Happy Hacking!
-jj

-- 
http://jjinux.blogspot.com/

From jjinux at gmail.com  Fri Sep 14 00:23:00 2007
From: jjinux at gmail.com (Shannon -jj Behrens)
Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2007 15:23:00 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] Suggested books for Agile Programming & Testing
In-Reply-To: <BAY111-F3685BD79DCC7E60F354F80A0C00@phx.gbl>
References: <BAY111-F3685BD79DCC7E60F354F80A0C00@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <c41f67b90709131523x2861f347y17fec012bce7ee57@mail.gmail.com>

On 9/9/07, Stephen McInerney <spmcinerney at hotmail.com> wrote:
> Can anyone recommend me the best single must-read book for Agile
> Programming?
> Also Agile Testing.
>
> (If they compare Agile in general to the other methodologies, that would be
> great)
>
> Also, can anyone comment on the limits or caveats of agile development?

I like agile programming.  XP is a specific instance (?) of agile
programming.  I read "Extreme Programming Explained", and I enjoyed
it.  As for testing, I went to a two hour testing tutorial at PyCon
and I blogged about it here:
http://jjinux.blogspot.com/2007/02/pycon-testing-tools-in-python.html

Hope that Helps,
-jj

-- 
http://jjinux.blogspot.com/

From charles.merriam at gmail.com  Fri Sep 14 00:24:05 2007
From: charles.merriam at gmail.com (Charles Merriam)
Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2007 15:24:05 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] Dinner thoughts?
Message-ID: <b8c6f6c40709131524q512641datb0d5047124932863@mail.gmail.com>

The BayPiggies page had originally mentioned people getting together
for dinner before a meeting.  Does this happen?

From jjinux at gmail.com  Fri Sep 14 00:45:22 2007
From: jjinux at gmail.com (Shannon -jj Behrens)
Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2007 15:45:22 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] [website] meeting archive updated
In-Reply-To: <baf0d46b0709071255k154b3068nf16fce180dbd0668@mail.gmail.com>
References: <baf0d46b0709071255k154b3068nf16fce180dbd0668@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <c41f67b90709131545yf0bc67safa3e438064dfdb9@mail.gmail.com>

On 9/7/07, Donna Snow <donnamsnow at gmail.com> wrote:
> I added a [website] marker in subject and will continue to do so for
> those who are not interested in any way shape or form on website
> happenings...
>
> As mentioned in subject.. the meeting archive on new site has been updated..
> I think we have everything from old site now.. moved over to new..
>
> This weekend I need to put the site in "debug" mode.. to make some
> style changes and I'd like to install a couple of products we might
> like... we discussed this a bit a few months ago...
>
> but does it make sense to add any of the following?
>
> Calendar (Plone4Artists Calendar)
> (this way upcoming events like Anna's She's Geeky unconference could
> be added... upcoming classes.. that sort of thing)
> Video capabilities (Plone4Artists video)
> Forum
> Blog
>
> I can't think of anything else that we'd utilize much... can you?

Let's ship it and futz with it later.  I personally don't think we
should get too fancy.  For me, BayPiggies is about the meetings and
the mailing list.  Lookin' good, by the way!

Happy Hacking!
-jj

-- 
http://jjinux.blogspot.com/

From jjinux at gmail.com  Fri Sep 14 00:48:53 2007
From: jjinux at gmail.com (Shannon -jj Behrens)
Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2007 15:48:53 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] Django Sprint
In-Reply-To: <f470871d0709060934y10609cd2sb9b3bac7f6230611@mail.gmail.com>
References: <f470871d0709060934y10609cd2sb9b3bac7f6230611@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <c41f67b90709131548r5604c397y70abb3157b2c802d@mail.gmail.com>

On 9/6/07, David Cramer <dcramer at gmail.com> wrote:
> I just thought I'd throw this up on here, in case anyone doesn't follow the
> user groups.
>
> http://code.djangoproject.com/wiki/Sprint14Sep

The TurboGear guys are also in town this weekend, hanging out with the
Pylons guys.  Now's the opportunity to kidnap them all at once and
come out with another framework!

PS: Kidnapping isn't actually required.
PPS: This is purely in jest since half of us already have our own
frameworks anyway ;)

Happy Hacking!
-jj

-- 
http://jjinux.blogspot.com/

From jjinux at gmail.com  Fri Sep 14 00:51:26 2007
From: jjinux at gmail.com (Shannon -jj Behrens)
Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2007 15:51:26 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] Suggested books for Agile Programming & Testing
In-Reply-To: <c41f67b90709131523x2861f347y17fec012bce7ee57@mail.gmail.com>
References: <BAY111-F3685BD79DCC7E60F354F80A0C00@phx.gbl>
	<c41f67b90709131523x2861f347y17fec012bce7ee57@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <c41f67b90709131551g1e3255acle2a89ea02ed94cb7@mail.gmail.com>

Doh!  This message was cross-posted!  My apologies to all those fine
Python programmers over at tutor at python.org.

On 9/13/07, Shannon -jj Behrens <jjinux at gmail.com> wrote:
> On 9/9/07, Stephen McInerney <spmcinerney at hotmail.com> wrote:
> > Can anyone recommend me the best single must-read book for Agile
> > Programming?
> > Also Agile Testing.
> >
> > (If they compare Agile in general to the other methodologies, that would be
> > great)
> >
> > Also, can anyone comment on the limits or caveats of agile development?
>
> I like agile programming.  XP is a specific instance (?) of agile
> programming.  I read "Extreme Programming Explained", and I enjoyed
> it.  As for testing, I went to a two hour testing tutorial at PyCon
> and I blogged about it here:
> http://jjinux.blogspot.com/2007/02/pycon-testing-tools-in-python.html
>
> Hope that Helps,
> -jj
>
> --
> http://jjinux.blogspot.com/
>


-- 
http://jjinux.blogspot.com/

From wescpy at gmail.com  Fri Sep 14 01:52:02 2007
From: wescpy at gmail.com (wesley chun)
Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2007 16:52:02 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] Dinner thoughts?
In-Reply-To: <b8c6f6c40709131524q512641datb0d5047124932863@mail.gmail.com>
References: <b8c6f6c40709131524q512641datb0d5047124932863@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <78b3a9580709131652s26b5692brafd3f91276b0fa80@mail.gmail.com>

> The BayPiggies page had originally mentioned people getting together
> for dinner before a meeting.  Does this happen?


yes, they do happen with brian coordinating them, but i don't think he
sent out a msg this week:
http://mail.python.org/pipermail/baypiggies/2007-August/002401.html

-- wesley
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
"Core Python Programming", Prentice Hall, (c)2007,2001
    http://corepython.com

wesley.j.chun :: wescpy-at-gmail.com
python training and technical consulting
cyberweb.consulting : silicon valley, ca
http://cyberwebconsulting.com

From andywiggin at gmail.com  Fri Sep 14 02:01:00 2007
From: andywiggin at gmail.com (Andy Wiggin)
Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2007 17:01:00 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] Guido's Blog: It isn't Easy to Remove the GIL
In-Reply-To: <c41f67b90709131509k62bae79eq48f6a9178873b97@mail.gmail.com>
References: <BAY111-F3575072295DC29BB46E77DA0C10@phx.gbl>
	<c41f67b90709131509k62bae79eq48f6a9178873b97@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <74e7428a0709131701n45d14b38i1833b82e9881fbbd@mail.gmail.com>

I thought the discussion was very interesting. I think true parallel
programming is the challenge of our time, so I'm quite disappointed
that the Python powers that be do not seem to feel any imperative to
address it. I've always been kind of assuming that Python would
provide a "pythonic" parallel programming paradigm that would "just
work" and be as elegant as the rest of the language.

Regarding the non-modifiable data idea, Python already provide "set"
and "frozenset". Maybe the same sort of arrangement could be done with
dicts, instances, etc. Then you could pass frozen objects between
threads.

-Andy

From charles.merriam at gmail.com  Fri Sep 14 03:41:56 2007
From: charles.merriam at gmail.com (Charles Merriam)
Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2007 18:41:56 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] Dinner thoughts?
In-Reply-To: <78b3a9580709131652s26b5692brafd3f91276b0fa80@mail.gmail.com>
References: <b8c6f6c40709131524q512641datb0d5047124932863@mail.gmail.com>
	<78b3a9580709131652s26b5692brafd3f91276b0fa80@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <b8c6f6c40709131841l2062391pfab1e4adacef826a@mail.gmail.com>

Bummer...   Does this require massive coordination, or is the only
real information required is a restaurant place that can deal with
adding more people without reservations?  If the latter, let's just
have something posted on Monday of the week before the meeting?



On 9/13/07, wesley chun <wescpy at gmail.com> wrote:
> > The BayPiggies page had originally mentioned people getting together
> > for dinner before a meeting.  Does this happen?
>
>
> yes, they do happen with brian coordinating them, but i don't think he
> sent out a msg this week:
> http://mail.python.org/pipermail/baypiggies/2007-August/002401.html
>
> -- wesley
> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
> "Core Python Programming", Prentice Hall, (c)2007,2001
>     http://corepython.com
>
> wesley.j.chun :: wescpy-at-gmail.com
> python training and technical consulting
> cyberweb.consulting : silicon valley, ca
> http://cyberwebconsulting.com
>

From alecf at flett.org  Fri Sep 14 05:43:04 2007
From: alecf at flett.org (Alec Flett)
Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2007 20:43:04 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] Django Sprint
In-Reply-To: <c41f67b90709131548r5604c397y70abb3157b2c802d@mail.gmail.com>
References: <f470871d0709060934y10609cd2sb9b3bac7f6230611@mail.gmail.com>
	<c41f67b90709131548r5604c397y70abb3157b2c802d@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <c78d65270709132043j446a7d1dhc7847681d54378a5@mail.gmail.com>

Is there a TurboGears/Pylons event of some sort? A sprint or a gathering of
some sort?

Alec

On 9/13/07, Shannon -jj Behrens <jjinux at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> On 9/6/07, David Cramer <dcramer at gmail.com> wrote:
> > I just thought I'd throw this up on here, in case anyone doesn't follow
> the
> > user groups.
> >
> > http://code.djangoproject.com/wiki/Sprint14Sep
>
> The TurboGear guys are also in town this weekend, hanging out with the
> Pylons guys.  Now's the opportunity to kidnap them all at once and
> come out with another framework!
>
> PS: Kidnapping isn't actually required.
> PPS: This is purely in jest since half of us already have our own
> frameworks anyway ;)
>
> Happy Hacking!
> -jj
>
> --
> http://jjinux.blogspot.com/
> _______________________________________________
> Baypiggies mailing list
> Baypiggies at python.org
> To change your subscription options or unsubscribe:
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies
>
-------------- next part --------------
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From charles.merriam at gmail.com  Fri Sep 14 11:41:23 2007
From: charles.merriam at gmail.com (Charles Merriam)
Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2007 02:41:23 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] Overview of 9/13 SnapLogic talk
Message-ID: <b8c6f6c40709140241qb1347e3raf1d316ddcb45690@mail.gmail.com>

BayPiggies Overview of September 13, 2007

Mike Pittaro, a founder at SnapLogic, spoke on "An Open Source Data
Integration Project using Python".  Slides are available as a PDF
(http://tinyurl.com/2ophj7). Mike spoke primarily about the issues
building the team, infrastructure, and installer for a large Python
project.

The SnapLogic product is a data munging and translation application
aimed at developers.  Under a GPL license, professional support and
service is available for a fee.  It has taken about one year to
develop.  Hiring Python developers was difficult, and eventually good
programmers were hired that then learned Python.   They are still
hiring.

The development infrastructure came together quickly using primarily
open source tools written in Python: mailman, subversion, trac, and
moinmoin.  The team uses both Linux and Windows (using Samba
partitions) and both Eclipse/Pydev and vi/emacs.  The build process
uses buildbot to kick of builds, epydoc and epytext for documentation,
figleaf for code coverage, unittest for testing, and (closed source)
bitrock for installation.  This led to a 11.5 Joel Score
(http://tinyurl.com/1s8w).

They learned some rules about coding standards, keeping control of
import statements, and wrapping really complex libraries with
getattr() tricks.  Mostly, they fought with the installation problems
of installation of an open source project that requires Python, C,
databases, lots of interactions, and also needs to deploy on Windows.
They are still fighting with parallelization.

Mike suggested several sources of information.  First, keep reading
the library reference over and over.  He also recommended Python Is
Not Java (http://tinyurl.com/2qyn82) and Code Like a Pythonista
(http://tinyurl.com/2cv9kg).

Thanks again to Mike for a great talk!

From charles.merriam at gmail.com  Fri Sep 14 12:08:45 2007
From: charles.merriam at gmail.com (Charles Merriam)
Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2007 03:08:45 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] Overview of 9/13 SnapLogic talk
In-Reply-To: <b8c6f6c40709140241qb1347e3raf1d316ddcb45690@mail.gmail.com>
References: <b8c6f6c40709140241qb1347e3raf1d316ddcb45690@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <b8c6f6c40709140308o57e4b4cdk5cde9929b2f61c40@mail.gmail.com>

Those who like their overviews more linky may wish to read
http://www.charlesmerriam.com/blog/?p=66


On 9/14/07, Charles Merriam <charles.merriam at gmail.com> wrote:
> BayPiggies Overview of September 13, 2007
>
> Mike Pittaro, a founder at SnapLogic, spoke on "An Open Source Data
> Integration Project using Python".  Slides are available as a PDF
> (http://tinyurl.com/2ophj7). Mike spoke primarily about the issues
> building the team, infrastructure, and installer for a large Python
> project.
>
> The SnapLogic product is a data munging and translation application
> aimed at developers.  Under a GPL license, professional support and
> service is available for a fee.  It has taken about one year to
> develop.  Hiring Python developers was difficult, and eventually good
> programmers were hired that then learned Python.   They are still
> hiring.
>
> The development infrastructure came together quickly using primarily
> open source tools written in Python: mailman, subversion, trac, and
> moinmoin.  The team uses both Linux and Windows (using Samba
> partitions) and both Eclipse/Pydev and vi/emacs.  The build process
> uses buildbot to kick of builds, epydoc and epytext for documentation,
> figleaf for code coverage, unittest for testing, and (closed source)
> bitrock for installation.  This led to a 11.5 Joel Score
> (http://tinyurl.com/1s8w).
>
> They learned some rules about coding standards, keeping control of
> import statements, and wrapping really complex libraries with
> getattr() tricks.  Mostly, they fought with the installation problems
> of installation of an open source project that requires Python, C,
> databases, lots of interactions, and also needs to deploy on Windows.
> They are still fighting with parallelization.
>
> Mike suggested several sources of information.  First, keep reading
> the library reference over and over.  He also recommended Python Is
> Not Java (http://tinyurl.com/2qyn82) and Code Like a Pythonista
> (http://tinyurl.com/2cv9kg).
>
> Thanks again to Mike for a great talk!
>

From donnamsnow at gmail.com  Fri Sep 14 18:15:58 2007
From: donnamsnow at gmail.com (Donna Snow)
Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2007 09:15:58 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] [website] meeting archive updated
In-Reply-To: <c41f67b90709131545yf0bc67safa3e438064dfdb9@mail.gmail.com>
References: <baf0d46b0709071255k154b3068nf16fce180dbd0668@mail.gmail.com>
	<c41f67b90709131545yf0bc67safa3e438064dfdb9@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <baf0d46b0709140915o2cf7eb64u6a120335eb53fb9c@mail.gmail.com>

Only problema here is I'm not sure how to change the dns.. if that's
necessary..if someone wants to take a look at web faction (formerly
python-hosting) and either redirect or tell me how.. then we can most
definitely do that..

Donna

On 9/13/07, Shannon -jj Behrens <jjinux at gmail.com> wrote:
> On 9/7/07, Donna Snow <donnamsnow at gmail.com> wrote:
> > I added a [website] marker in subject and will continue to do so for
> > those who are not interested in any way shape or form on website
> > happenings...
> >
> > As mentioned in subject.. the meeting archive on new site has been updated..
> > I think we have everything from old site now.. moved over to new..
> >
> > This weekend I need to put the site in "debug" mode.. to make some
> > style changes and I'd like to install a couple of products we might
> > like... we discussed this a bit a few months ago...
> >
> > but does it make sense to add any of the following?
> >
> > Calendar (Plone4Artists Calendar)
> > (this way upcoming events like Anna's She's Geeky unconference could
> > be added... upcoming classes.. that sort of thing)
> > Video capabilities (Plone4Artists video)
> > Forum
> > Blog
> >
> > I can't think of anything else that we'd utilize much... can you?
>
> Let's ship it and futz with it later.  I personally don't think we
> should get too fancy.  For me, BayPiggies is about the meetings and
> the mailing list.  Lookin' good, by the way!
>
> Happy Hacking!
> -jj
>
> --
> http://jjinux.blogspot.com/
>

From guido at python.org  Fri Sep 14 21:23:29 2007
From: guido at python.org (Guido van Rossum)
Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2007 12:23:29 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] Guido's Blog: It isn't Easy to Remove the GIL
In-Reply-To: <74e7428a0709131701n45d14b38i1833b82e9881fbbd@mail.gmail.com>
References: <BAY111-F3575072295DC29BB46E77DA0C10@phx.gbl>
	<c41f67b90709131509k62bae79eq48f6a9178873b97@mail.gmail.com>
	<74e7428a0709131701n45d14b38i1833b82e9881fbbd@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <ca471dc20709141223k4a36af2pf597b63870103e45@mail.gmail.com>

On 9/13/07, Andy Wiggin <andywiggin at gmail.com> wrote:
> I thought the discussion was very interesting. I think true parallel
> programming is the challenge of our time, so I'm quite disappointed
> that the Python powers that be do not seem to feel any imperative to
> address it. I've always been kind of assuming that Python would
> provide a "pythonic" parallel programming paradigm that would "just
> work" and be as elegant as the rest of the language.

I'm sorry, but this attitude just really pisses me off. Python is the
work of many people. If you want something to happen, make it happen.
Don't wait for someone else to solve your problem for you.

-- 
--Guido van Rossum (home page: http://www.python.org/~guido/)

From bdbaddog at gmail.com  Fri Sep 14 22:16:27 2007
From: bdbaddog at gmail.com (William Deegan)
Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2007 13:16:27 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] Guido's Blog: It isn't Easy to Remove the GIL
In-Reply-To: <BAY111-F3575072295DC29BB46E77DA0C10@phx.gbl>
References: <BAY111-F3575072295DC29BB46E77DA0C10@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <8540148a0709141316n2e191e2dv942a5d3825470567@mail.gmail.com>

...

> However, I want to warn that there are many downsides to removing the GIL.
> It complicates life for extension modules, who can no longer expect that
> they are invoked in a "safe zone" protected by the GIL -- as soon as an
> extension has any global mutable data, will have to be prepared with
> concurrent calls from multiple threads. There might also be changes in the
> Python/C API necessitated by the need to lock certain objects for the
> duration of a sequence of calls.
...

I don't know much about the implementation of extension modules, but
might it work to effectively have GIL around modules which don't
register their ability to handle multiple threads?

So python's engine would run multi-threaded, when it calls an
extension module, it would use a lock on entry/exit to any module
which is not thread aware?

I'm sure there's huge holes in this idea, but I thought I'd put it out there.

-Bill

From adamlulvi at yahoo.com  Fri Sep 14 22:26:15 2007
From: adamlulvi at yahoo.com (Adam Ulvi)
Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2007 13:26:15 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Baypiggies] Guido's Blog: It isn't Easy to Remove the GIL
Message-ID: <239424.9169.qm@web30713.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

I thought that telling people to "write it yourself if you want it so damn much" was the open-source version of Godwin's law.  ;-)

Seriously, I wasn't aware the GIL was such a hot-button, I'll try to avoid bringing it up in polite company from now on.

- A

----- Original Message ----
From: Guido van Rossum <guido at python.org>
To: Andy Wiggin <andywiggin at gmail.com>
Cc: baypiggies at python.org
Sent: Friday, September 14, 2007 12:23:29 PM
Subject: Re: [Baypiggies] Guido's Blog: It isn't Easy to Remove the GIL

On 9/13/07, Andy Wiggin <andywiggin at gmail.com> wrote:
> I thought the discussion was very interesting. I think true parallel
> programming is the challenge of our time, so I'm quite disappointed
> that the Python powers that be do not seem to feel any imperative to
> address it. I've always been kind of assuming that Python would
> provide a "pythonic" parallel programming paradigm that would "just
> work" and be as elegant as the rest of the language.

I'm sorry, but this attitude just really pisses me off. Python is the
work of many people. If you want something to happen, make it happen.
Don't wait for someone else to solve your problem for you.

-- 
--Guido van Rossum (home page: http://www.python.org/~guido/)
_______________________________________________
Baypiggies mailing list
Baypiggies at python.org
To change your subscription options or unsubscribe:
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies





       
____________________________________________________________________________________
Need a vacation? Get great deals
to amazing places on Yahoo! Travel.
http://travel.yahoo.com/

From andywiggin at gmail.com  Fri Sep 14 22:55:11 2007
From: andywiggin at gmail.com (Andy Wiggin)
Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2007 13:55:11 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] Guido's Blog: It isn't Easy to Remove the GIL
In-Reply-To: <ca471dc20709141223k4a36af2pf597b63870103e45@mail.gmail.com>
References: <BAY111-F3575072295DC29BB46E77DA0C10@phx.gbl>
	<c41f67b90709131509k62bae79eq48f6a9178873b97@mail.gmail.com>
	<74e7428a0709131701n45d14b38i1833b82e9881fbbd@mail.gmail.com>
	<ca471dc20709141223k4a36af2pf597b63870103e45@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <74e7428a0709141355g7778bbfaw950d7046eaa603b3@mail.gmail.com>

> I'm sorry, but this attitude just really pisses me off. Python is the
> work of many people. If you want something to happen, make it happen.
> Don't wait for someone else to solve your problem for you.

I think it's a point well taken. It doesn't help the situation to
express this disappointment.

I do think that running single-threaded on the commodity machines of
the near future will be a handicap for any program, and running one
process per core is not going to work too well either (unless you're
IO-bound), so the GIL might limit where and when one can use pure
Python (or at least the CPython VM) as a solution. Hence my
disappointment, as I'd use Python everywhere if I could.

From guido at python.org  Fri Sep 14 23:13:53 2007
From: guido at python.org (Guido van Rossum)
Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2007 14:13:53 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] Guido's Blog: It isn't Easy to Remove the GIL
In-Reply-To: <74e7428a0709141355g7778bbfaw950d7046eaa603b3@mail.gmail.com>
References: <BAY111-F3575072295DC29BB46E77DA0C10@phx.gbl>
	<c41f67b90709131509k62bae79eq48f6a9178873b97@mail.gmail.com>
	<74e7428a0709131701n45d14b38i1833b82e9881fbbd@mail.gmail.com>
	<ca471dc20709141223k4a36af2pf597b63870103e45@mail.gmail.com>
	<74e7428a0709141355g7778bbfaw950d7046eaa603b3@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <ca471dc20709141413p4957a3ceg579331bbb2382c7a@mail.gmail.com>

On 9/14/07, Andy Wiggin <andywiggin at gmail.com> wrote:
> > I'm sorry, but this attitude just really pisses me off. Python is the
> > work of many people. If you want something to happen, make it happen.
> > Don't wait for someone else to solve your problem for you.
>
> I think it's a point well taken. It doesn't help the situation to
> express this disappointment.
>
> I do think that running single-threaded on the commodity machines of
> the near future will be a handicap for any program, and running one
> process per core is not going to work too well either (unless you're
> IO-bound), so the GIL might limit where and when one can use pure
> Python (or at least the CPython VM) as a solution. Hence my
> disappointment, as I'd use Python everywhere if I could.

You haven't really read the blogs, have you? The high-level bit is
that there are no easy solutions. Concurrency is hard, period.

-- 
--Guido van Rossum (home page: http://www.python.org/~guido/)

From andywiggin at gmail.com  Fri Sep 14 23:57:40 2007
From: andywiggin at gmail.com (Andy Wiggin)
Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2007 14:57:40 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] Guido's Blog: It isn't Easy to Remove the GIL
In-Reply-To: <ca471dc20709141413p4957a3ceg579331bbb2382c7a@mail.gmail.com>
References: <BAY111-F3575072295DC29BB46E77DA0C10@phx.gbl>
	<c41f67b90709131509k62bae79eq48f6a9178873b97@mail.gmail.com>
	<74e7428a0709131701n45d14b38i1833b82e9881fbbd@mail.gmail.com>
	<ca471dc20709141223k4a36af2pf597b63870103e45@mail.gmail.com>
	<74e7428a0709141355g7778bbfaw950d7046eaa603b3@mail.gmail.com>
	<ca471dc20709141413p4957a3ceg579331bbb2382c7a@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <74e7428a0709141457r6df7ce3cs6bdf66d1a4d342ba@mail.gmail.com>

I'm not quite following you... I'm just talking about what the
hardware is going to be like, and my understanding of the type of
software that will be able to take advantage of it. The complexity is
being driven by our good friends the CPU vendors, and the realities of
device physics and IC packaging. Whether or not it's easy to program,
I think that's the kind of hardware we're going to get.

From allison at shasta.stanford.edu  Fri Sep 14 23:30:49 2007
From: allison at shasta.stanford.edu (Dennis Allison)
Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2007 14:30:49 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Baypiggies] Guido's Blog: It isn't Easy to Remove the GIL
In-Reply-To: <74e7428a0709141355g7778bbfaw950d7046eaa603b3@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0709141417390.3307-100000@shasta.stanford.edu>


Software that takes advantage of multi-core machines is going to be hard 
to write on a number of counts -- python is not the only system which will 
have to contend with shared locks.  At the moment, most people appear to 
just ignore the issue and accept whatever degredation occurs due to 
cross processor sharing of the GIL.

It would be nice if we had some measured data on the performance cost in 
multicore machines due to the GIL--itself, hard to measure and quantify.

Guido mentioned to me once that there had been an attempt to replace the 
GIL (a simple and low overhead solution) with local locks, but that the 
result was slow and unstable.   I do know who did it.  Another approach 
might be to use wait-free locking techniques and eliminates the GIL by 
eliminating locks (that is, replacing locks with compare-and-swap) at the 
cost of possibly redundant computation. It is not clear whether this is a 
good trade--and would make for a nice project.  



On Fri, 14 Sep 2007, Andy Wiggin wrote:

> > I'm sorry, but this attitude just really pisses me off. Python is the
> > work of many people. If you want something to happen, make it happen.
> > Don't wait for someone else to solve your problem for you.
> 
> I think it's a point well taken. It doesn't help the situation to
> express this disappointment.
> 
> I do think that running single-threaded on the commodity machines of
> the near future will be a handicap for any program, and running one
> process per core is not going to work too well either (unless you're
> IO-bound), so the GIL might limit where and when one can use pure
> Python (or at least the CPython VM) as a solution. Hence my
> disappointment, as I'd use Python everywhere if I could.


From guido at python.org  Sat Sep 15 00:28:31 2007
From: guido at python.org (Guido van Rossum)
Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2007 15:28:31 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] Guido's Blog: It isn't Easy to Remove the GIL
In-Reply-To: <74e7428a0709141457r6df7ce3cs6bdf66d1a4d342ba@mail.gmail.com>
References: <BAY111-F3575072295DC29BB46E77DA0C10@phx.gbl>
	<c41f67b90709131509k62bae79eq48f6a9178873b97@mail.gmail.com>
	<74e7428a0709131701n45d14b38i1833b82e9881fbbd@mail.gmail.com>
	<ca471dc20709141223k4a36af2pf597b63870103e45@mail.gmail.com>
	<74e7428a0709141355g7778bbfaw950d7046eaa603b3@mail.gmail.com>
	<ca471dc20709141413p4957a3ceg579331bbb2382c7a@mail.gmail.com>
	<74e7428a0709141457r6df7ce3cs6bdf66d1a4d342ba@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <ca471dc20709141528m4a44f41at40a2399c0c395cf2@mail.gmail.com>

Read this:

http://marknelson.us/2007/07/30/multicore-panic/

On 9/14/07, Andy Wiggin <andywiggin at gmail.com> wrote:
> I'm not quite following you... I'm just talking about what the
> hardware is going to be like, and my understanding of the type of
> software that will be able to take advantage of it. The complexity is
> being driven by our good friends the CPU vendors, and the realities of
> device physics and IC packaging. Whether or not it's easy to program,
> I think that's the kind of hardware we're going to get.
>


-- 
--Guido van Rossum (home page: http://www.python.org/~guido/)

From charles.merriam at gmail.com  Sat Sep 15 01:20:00 2007
From: charles.merriam at gmail.com (Charles Merriam)
Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2007 16:20:00 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] Guido's Blog: It isn't Easy to Remove the GIL
In-Reply-To: <ca471dc20709141528m4a44f41at40a2399c0c395cf2@mail.gmail.com>
References: <BAY111-F3575072295DC29BB46E77DA0C10@phx.gbl>
	<c41f67b90709131509k62bae79eq48f6a9178873b97@mail.gmail.com>
	<74e7428a0709131701n45d14b38i1833b82e9881fbbd@mail.gmail.com>
	<ca471dc20709141223k4a36af2pf597b63870103e45@mail.gmail.com>
	<74e7428a0709141355g7778bbfaw950d7046eaa603b3@mail.gmail.com>
	<ca471dc20709141413p4957a3ceg579331bbb2382c7a@mail.gmail.com>
	<74e7428a0709141457r6df7ce3cs6bdf66d1a4d342ba@mail.gmail.com>
	<ca471dc20709141528m4a44f41at40a2399c0c395cf2@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <b8c6f6c40709141620r237f37fbw737eaa6fbd8bb700@mail.gmail.com>

At the risk of fanning the flames, here is a random vignettes:

Many years ago at a dinner with Bjarne Stroustrup (of C++ fame),
Bjarne laid out , on the back of a napkin, a graph of parallel
programming fads over thirty years.  His premise was that it took
about sixty operations to fully switch a process and about one to just
change the PC register.  On one point of the fad, everything was a
separate process communication over RPC (or a common file, or a shared
buffer, or, now, an XML stream) and people would complain about the
swizzeling involved and the cost of switching processes.   A new fad
would emerge where a bit more careful specification was required by
the programmer in return for less swizzeling  and better performance.
 Another fad would move to light weight threads with more care
required by programmers to avoid subtle bugs.  Eventually, each thread
would be required to mange its own concurrency system in a blindly
fast execution.  Then the cycle would reverse, with some new
improvements preventing esoteric bugs at the cost of some performance.
  He charted the period at about eight years.

Now in Python, we worry about the overhead of the interpreter
footprint.  Are we still just chasing this cycle around?


On 9/14/07, Guido van Rossum <guido at python.org> wrote:
> Read this:
>
> http://marknelson.us/2007/07/30/multicore-panic/
>
> On 9/14/07, Andy Wiggin <andywiggin at gmail.com> wrote:
> > I'm not quite following you... I'm just talking about what the
> > hardware is going to be like, and my understanding of the type of
> > software that will be able to take advantage of it. The complexity is
> > being driven by our good friends the CPU vendors, and the realities of
> > device physics and IC packaging. Whether or not it's easy to program,
> > I think that's the kind of hardware we're going to get.
> >
>
>
> --
> --Guido van Rossum (home page: http://www.python.org/~guido/)
> _______________________________________________
> Baypiggies mailing list
> Baypiggies at python.org
> To change your subscription options or unsubscribe:
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies
>

From jim at well.com  Sat Sep 15 02:03:55 2007
From: jim at well.com (jim stockford)
Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2007 17:03:55 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] concurrency, parallelism, python future
Message-ID: <e8347ae96c3b69b10ae4366833295951@well.com>


Per GvR:
Read this:
http://marknelson.us/2007/07/30/multicore-panic/

    Various industry mags have articles warning that
future multi-core chips and systems on the PCB level
with multiple CPUs will outstrip the tools, languages,
OS capabilities, mindsets of software developers.
    My guess is that after the OS brains have somewhat
settled on an approach, then the language brains will
tune in--i.e. there's some wisdom in waiting to see
how the OS presents the hardware.
    But it seems a fun discussion.

    I offer this email as a basis for continued discussion
and ask if you think this topic might make a good
bayPIGgies meeting topic, perhaps in the form of a
panel.


From andywiggin at gmail.com  Sat Sep 15 02:03:55 2007
From: andywiggin at gmail.com (Andy Wiggin)
Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2007 17:03:55 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] Guido's Blog: It isn't Easy to Remove the GIL
In-Reply-To: <ca471dc20709141528m4a44f41at40a2399c0c395cf2@mail.gmail.com>
References: <BAY111-F3575072295DC29BB46E77DA0C10@phx.gbl>
	<c41f67b90709131509k62bae79eq48f6a9178873b97@mail.gmail.com>
	<74e7428a0709131701n45d14b38i1833b82e9881fbbd@mail.gmail.com>
	<ca471dc20709141223k4a36af2pf597b63870103e45@mail.gmail.com>
	<74e7428a0709141355g7778bbfaw950d7046eaa603b3@mail.gmail.com>
	<ca471dc20709141413p4957a3ceg579331bbb2382c7a@mail.gmail.com>
	<74e7428a0709141457r6df7ce3cs6bdf66d1a4d342ba@mail.gmail.com>
	<ca471dc20709141528m4a44f41at40a2399c0c395cf2@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <74e7428a0709141703n1299ce2ar44754e77586cc615@mail.gmail.com>

That's certainly the story we'd all like to hear. There's probably
some truth to it besides. His assumption that core multiplication will
follow Moore's law may not be right, though. It may go faster because
the thermal savings are non-linear with CPU frequency, so we may get
more and slower cores sooner than his model predicts. His point that
the future is uncertain and that there are countervailing forces is
undeniable.

-Andy

From warren at delsci.com  Sat Sep 15 02:04:11 2007
From: warren at delsci.com (Warren DeLano)
Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2007 17:04:11 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] Guido's Blog: It isn't Easy to Remove the
Message-ID: <0DB8D1752501D54A89A4725BD9DFE6F41B703A@GLOBE.delsci.local>

Hmm...

Call me crazy, but it seems to me that the problem isn't so much the
GIL, but rather, it is our inability to simultaneously run multiple
Python interpreters within a single process, with each interpreter
playing nicely with native C extensions and libraries.

In other words, it is not the interpreter lock that is so limiting,
rather, it is the fact that the interpreter acts like a global singleton
with respect to the C/API and other native code extensions.

To restate this yet another way:  In my perfect Python-embedded world,
the Python interpreter would itself become an object you can instantiate
many times, and the bulk of the C/API would then become methods called
on that object.  Each interpreter instance would still have its own GIL
-- you wouldn't need to deal with microscopic locking, and you wouldn't
lose any of Python's existing performance.

Of course, most C/API methods would however need to take "self" as an
argument:

PyObject *PySome_Action(PythonInterpreterInstance *pythonSelf, ...);

However, we could use TLS (thread-local-state) to dynamically bind a
specific interpreter instance to a specific thread.  

PythonInterpreterInstance *P = ...some extant interpeter instance...;

if(PyInstanceViaTLS_BindThread(P)) {

  PyGILState_STATE gstate;
  gstate = PyGILState_Ensure();

  /* global calls within this thread are now directed at a specific
interpreter */

  PySome_Action (...);
  
  /* meanwhile, other threads could simultaneously be messaging other
interpreters running in parallel within the same process */

  PyGILState_Release(gstate);

  PyInstanceViaTLS_UnbindThread();
}

That simple workaround could preserve compatibility will existing C/API
code, while still freeing us from this crushing global singularity...

So is this just crazy talk?  Or might something like this actually be
worth a try? 

Cheers,
Warren
warren at delsci.com




From DennisR at dair.com  Sat Sep 15 02:34:00 2007
From: DennisR at dair.com (Dennis Reinhardt)
Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2007 17:34:00 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] Guido's Blog: It isn't Easy to Remove the GIL
In-Reply-To: <74e7428a0709141703n1299ce2ar44754e77586cc615@mail.gmail.co
 m>
References: <ca471dc20709141528m4a44f41at40a2399c0c395cf2@mail.gmail.com>
	<BAY111-F3575072295DC29BB46E77DA0C10@phx.gbl>
	<c41f67b90709131509k62bae79eq48f6a9178873b97@mail.gmail.com>
	<74e7428a0709131701n45d14b38i1833b82e9881fbbd@mail.gmail.com>
	<ca471dc20709141223k4a36af2pf597b63870103e45@mail.gmail.com>
	<74e7428a0709141355g7778bbfaw950d7046eaa603b3@mail.gmail.com>
	<ca471dc20709141413p4957a3ceg579331bbb2382c7a@mail.gmail.com>
	<74e7428a0709141457r6df7ce3cs6bdf66d1a4d342ba@mail.gmail.com>
	<ca471dc20709141528m4a44f41at40a2399c0c395cf2@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20070914171401.00bf35c0@localhost>

At 05:03 PM 9/14/2007, Andy Wiggin wrote:
>His assumption that core multiplication will
>follow Moore's law may not be right, though.


Well, sorta.  Moore's law is a transistor count scaling law.  More 
transistors is a great fit for direct increase in cores.

>It may go faster because
>the thermal savings are non-linear with CPU frequency, so we may get
>more and slower cores sooner than his model predicts.

Ignoring threshold effects (a huge assumption), joint reductions in voltage 
and frequency yield a 3rd order (X**3) reduction in power.

The reduction in frequency maps into a direct reduction in throughput, 
ignoring fact that IO and off-chip peripheral are probably not reduced.

The performance scaling of more processors often follows Amdahl's law, a 
form of diminishing returns.  As a rule of thumb, and IIRC, two processors 
at speed X have the performance of a single processor at speed 1.8X.  It 
gets less favorable with more processors so 4 processors  at speed X are 
worth about 1 processor at 3X.  Again, rules of thumb and very dependent on 
the specifics.

Chip manufactures are *well aware* of the thermal vs. number of cores and 
any roadmap has that already baked in.

regards, Dennis
  ---------------------------------
| Dennis    | DennisR at dair.com    |
| Reinhardt | http://www.dair.com |
  ---------------------------------


From guido at python.org  Sat Sep 15 02:34:24 2007
From: guido at python.org (Guido van Rossum)
Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2007 17:34:24 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] Guido's Blog: It isn't Easy to Remove the
In-Reply-To: <0DB8D1752501D54A89A4725BD9DFE6F41B703A@GLOBE.delsci.local>
References: <0DB8D1752501D54A89A4725BD9DFE6F41B703A@GLOBE.delsci.local>
Message-ID: <ca471dc20709141734i1512447icb332bd05045e9f@mail.gmail.com>

Well, it would require rewriting all existing C extensions, except for
the ones that have zero mutable global data. Worse, some C extensions
wrap around C libraries that have global mutable data -- for those
there is no fix. Realistically, most C code uses global mutable state,
and realistically, most Python programs use C extensions.

On 9/14/07, Warren DeLano <warren at delsci.com> wrote:
> Hmm...
>
> Call me crazy, but it seems to me that the problem isn't so much the
> GIL, but rather, it is our inability to simultaneously run multiple
> Python interpreters within a single process, with each interpreter
> playing nicely with native C extensions and libraries.
>
> In other words, it is not the interpreter lock that is so limiting,
> rather, it is the fact that the interpreter acts like a global singleton
> with respect to the C/API and other native code extensions.
>
> To restate this yet another way:  In my perfect Python-embedded world,
> the Python interpreter would itself become an object you can instantiate
> many times, and the bulk of the C/API would then become methods called
> on that object.  Each interpreter instance would still have its own GIL
> -- you wouldn't need to deal with microscopic locking, and you wouldn't
> lose any of Python's existing performance.
>
> Of course, most C/API methods would however need to take "self" as an
> argument:
>
> PyObject *PySome_Action(PythonInterpreterInstance *pythonSelf, ...);
>
> However, we could use TLS (thread-local-state) to dynamically bind a
> specific interpreter instance to a specific thread.
>
> PythonInterpreterInstance *P = ...some extant interpeter instance...;
>
> if(PyInstanceViaTLS_BindThread(P)) {
>
>   PyGILState_STATE gstate;
>   gstate = PyGILState_Ensure();
>
>   /* global calls within this thread are now directed at a specific
> interpreter */
>
>   PySome_Action (...);
>
>   /* meanwhile, other threads could simultaneously be messaging other
> interpreters running in parallel within the same process */
>
>   PyGILState_Release(gstate);
>
>   PyInstanceViaTLS_UnbindThread();
> }
>
> That simple workaround could preserve compatibility will existing C/API
> code, while still freeing us from this crushing global singularity...
>
> So is this just crazy talk?  Or might something like this actually be
> worth a try?
>
> Cheers,
> Warren
> warren at delsci.com
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Baypiggies mailing list
> Baypiggies at python.org
> To change your subscription options or unsubscribe:
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies
>


-- 
--Guido van Rossum (home page: http://www.python.org/~guido/)

From alecf at flett.org  Sat Sep 15 02:40:33 2007
From: alecf at flett.org (Alec Flett)
Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2007 17:40:33 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] Guido's Blog: It isn't Easy to Remove the
In-Reply-To: <0DB8D1752501D54A89A4725BD9DFE6F41B703A@GLOBE.delsci.local>
References: <0DB8D1752501D54A89A4725BD9DFE6F41B703A@GLOBE.delsci.local>
Message-ID: <c78d65270709141740k7b74b87ew7b9e0013c87c4e3@mail.gmail.com>

I must admit, something along these lines is very attractive to me.

Here's the pattern of concurrency that will work within my app:
- request comes in
- fire off 'threads' for each independent operation
  - each thread goes and does some work, maybe queries some databases, and
returns its results
  - some threads spawn off additional tasks
- main thread collects all the results
- return them to the caller

Most of this can be accomplished fairly easily with Stackless python - you
can just fire up a tasklet for each operation and they're pretty darn
lightweight and fast - channels are what allow the synchronization at the
end of the request.

The problem is that stackless is only ever going to use one CPU - for a I/O
bound application, this is no problem at all but I've got an application
that is CPU heavy in addition to some I/O. Personally what I'd love to see
is for stackless to get one thread per CPU that it can run arbitrary
tasklets on - I don't care where my tasklets are running because they've
pretty much got all their own local state and only need to synchronize at
the end.

Ultimately my app is most often embedded in a (web) application server, so
as long as I fork a python for each CPU and just run one Stackless thread
per python interpreter I'm good - the load should be evenly distributed
amongst the CPUs assuming a reasonably consistent unit of work per http
request. But for some batch operations not inside a web server, I'd much
rather distribute the work without trying to serialize and synchronize data
between processes.

I am green with envy for Erlang because I think its concurrency is very well
suited to this pattern, but I'm working with 10,000 lines of Python and an
organization built around python developers... not to mention I am in love
with Python itself :)


Alec

On 9/14/07, Warren DeLano <warren at delsci.com> wrote:
>
> Hmm...
>
> Call me crazy, but it seems to me that the problem isn't so much the
> GIL, but rather, it is our inability to simultaneously run multiple
> Python interpreters within a single process, with each interpreter
> playing nicely with native C extensions and libraries.
>
> In other words, it is not the interpreter lock that is so limiting,
> rather, it is the fact that the interpreter acts like a global singleton
> with respect to the C/API and other native code extensions.
>
> To restate this yet another way:  In my perfect Python-embedded world,
> the Python interpreter would itself become an object you can instantiate
> many times, and the bulk of the C/API would then become methods called
> on that object.  Each interpreter instance would still have its own GIL
> -- you wouldn't need to deal with microscopic locking, and you wouldn't
> lose any of Python's existing performance.
>
> Of course, most C/API methods would however need to take "self" as an
> argument:
>
> PyObject *PySome_Action(PythonInterpreterInstance *pythonSelf, ...);
>
> However, we could use TLS (thread-local-state) to dynamically bind a
> specific interpreter instance to a specific thread.
>
> PythonInterpreterInstance *P = ...some extant interpeter instance...;
>
> if(PyInstanceViaTLS_BindThread(P)) {
>
>   PyGILState_STATE gstate;
>   gstate = PyGILState_Ensure();
>
>   /* global calls within this thread are now directed at a specific
> interpreter */
>
>   PySome_Action (...);
>
>   /* meanwhile, other threads could simultaneously be messaging other
> interpreters running in parallel within the same process */
>
>   PyGILState_Release(gstate);
>
>   PyInstanceViaTLS_UnbindThread();
> }
>
> That simple workaround could preserve compatibility will existing C/API
> code, while still freeing us from this crushing global singularity...
>
> So is this just crazy talk?  Or might something like this actually be
> worth a try?
>
> Cheers,
> Warren
> warren at delsci.com
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Baypiggies mailing list
> Baypiggies at python.org
> To change your subscription options or unsubscribe:
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies
>
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From andywiggin at gmail.com  Sat Sep 15 05:55:23 2007
From: andywiggin at gmail.com (Andy Wiggin)
Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2007 20:55:23 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] Guido's Blog: It isn't Easy to Remove the GIL
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20070914171401.00bf35c0@localhost>
References: <BAY111-F3575072295DC29BB46E77DA0C10@phx.gbl>
	<c41f67b90709131509k62bae79eq48f6a9178873b97@mail.gmail.com>
	<74e7428a0709131701n45d14b38i1833b82e9881fbbd@mail.gmail.com>
	<ca471dc20709141223k4a36af2pf597b63870103e45@mail.gmail.com>
	<74e7428a0709141355g7778bbfaw950d7046eaa603b3@mail.gmail.com>
	<ca471dc20709141413p4957a3ceg579331bbb2382c7a@mail.gmail.com>
	<74e7428a0709141457r6df7ce3cs6bdf66d1a4d342ba@mail.gmail.com>
	<ca471dc20709141528m4a44f41at40a2399c0c395cf2@mail.gmail.com>
	<5.1.0.14.0.20070914171401.00bf35c0@localhost>
Message-ID: <74e7428a0709142055j6bbd7030le615c9ed6e5a7491@mail.gmail.com>

> Ignoring threshold effects (a huge assumption), joint reductions in voltage
> and frequency yield a 3rd order (X**3) reduction in power.

The example I'm looking at, the chip vendor reduces core vdd by 10%
(1.2 -> 1.09) and core clock frequency by 30% (3.0GHz -> 2.3GHz) and
this cuts power by 50%. This allows them to put two of these things
(in essence, at least) in one package because there within the thermal
budget.

So you can get 2 cores at 3GHz or 4 cores at 2.3GHz, for roughly the
same price I am told. The vendor claims a 70% increase in peak flops
for the 4 core version.

Ignoring the vdd scaling (since basically no one cares about core vdd
when they're buying CPUs), this seems non-linear to me because you
give up 30% in CPU frequency and get 50% in power savings.

I'm guessing that your assumptions are more in terms of moving from
one process node to  the next, whereas the example I'm looking at (I'm
pretty sure) is based on two thermally bound designs at the same
process node. Also, within one process node, I believe the opportunity
for voltage scaling is limited, so I don't believe you can freely
scale it the way you can freely scale (down, at least) clock speed.

Regards,
Andy

From DennisR at dair.com  Sat Sep 15 07:54:35 2007
From: DennisR at dair.com (Dennis Reinhardt)
Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2007 22:54:35 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] Guido's Blog: It isn't Easy to Remove the GIL
In-Reply-To: <74e7428a0709142055j6bbd7030le615c9ed6e5a7491@mail.gmail.co
 m>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20070914171401.00bf35c0@localhost>
	<BAY111-F3575072295DC29BB46E77DA0C10@phx.gbl>
	<c41f67b90709131509k62bae79eq48f6a9178873b97@mail.gmail.com>
	<74e7428a0709131701n45d14b38i1833b82e9881fbbd@mail.gmail.com>
	<ca471dc20709141223k4a36af2pf597b63870103e45@mail.gmail.com>
	<74e7428a0709141355g7778bbfaw950d7046eaa603b3@mail.gmail.com>
	<ca471dc20709141413p4957a3ceg579331bbb2382c7a@mail.gmail.com>
	<74e7428a0709141457r6df7ce3cs6bdf66d1a4d342ba@mail.gmail.com>
	<ca471dc20709141528m4a44f41at40a2399c0c395cf2@mail.gmail.com>
	<5.1.0.14.0.20070914171401.00bf35c0@localhost>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20070914224012.00bfb6c0@localhost>

At 08:55 PM 9/14/2007, Andy Wiggin wrote:
>DR> Ignoring threshold effects (a huge assumption), joint reductions in 
>voltage
> > and frequency yield a 3rd order (X**3) reduction in power.
>AW>I'm guessing that your assumptions are more in terms of moving from
>one process node to  the next, whereas the example I'm looking at (I'm
>pretty sure) is based on two thermally bound designs at the same
>
>AW>The example I'm looking at, the chip vendor reduces core vdd by 10%
>(1.2 -> 1.09) and core clock frequency by 30% (3.0GHz -> 2.3GHz) and
>this cuts power by 50%. This allows them to put two of these things
>(in essence, at least) in one package because there within the thermal
>budget.


Actually, no, I am not talking about different processes.

Circuit power (CMOS) is proportional to V**2f where V is voltage and f is 
operating frequency.  Where V is significantly greater than transistor 
threshold voltage (0.7 volts), then f is proportional to V and power is 
proportional to f**3, as I said above.

In the example you cite, working with CV**2f and substituting 10 and 30%, 
we see power reduction of .9**2 x .7 = .57, consistent with the 50% you 
cite allowing for the granularity of the numbers.

We are talking about the same basic situation.

Dennis
  ---------------------------------
| Dennis    | DennisR at dair.com    |
| Reinhardt | http://www.dair.com |
  ---------------------------------


From warren at delsci.com  Sat Sep 15 18:18:50 2007
From: warren at delsci.com (Warren DeLano)
Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2007 09:18:50 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] Guido's Blog: It isn't Easy to Remove the
Message-ID: <0DB8D1752501D54A89A4725BD9DFE6F41B703B@GLOBE.delsci.local>


Granted, much existing C code is not thread-safe, but that begs the
question, since with concurrent interpreters, one could *only* expect to
interact with modern thread-safe extensions that encapsulate state into
object handles.

However, Guido's comments do help shape a possible solution:  there
would still have to be a primary interpreter responsible for interacting
with thread-unsafe "legacy" extensions, and all such extensions would
have be strictly unavailable to secondary (concurrent) interpreters.  

Indeed, this really isn't all that different than the status quo, where
sub-interpreters are not able to perform certain tasks.  Concurrent
sub-interpreters would have to be even more restricted in what they
could do.

But the real issue is the thread-unsafe nature of C/Python itself, and
what might or might not be done about it.  So...

Assuming that TLS is adopted as the means of identifying an active
concurrent interpreter bound to a native thread, does it strike anyone
as potentially feasible to conditionally intercept and redirect all
access to existing C/Python interpreter global state over to
instance-specific equivalents (for concurrent interpreters *only*)?  

Regardless, outside of a concurrent interpreter TLS-bound thread, all
existing code paths would remain unchanged, and thus, there would be no
need to rewrite "all existing C extensions" as Guido suggests.  

Nevertheless, thread-safe C extensions would need to be modified to
self-identify as such in order to be accessible from concurrent
interpreters, and so the capabilities of concurrent interpreters would
start out small and only grow slowly as thread-safety permits.

Thoughts?  Opinions?

> -----Original Message-----
> From: gvanrossum at gmail.com [mailto:gvanrossum at gmail.com] On 
> Behalf Of Guido van Rossum
> Sent: Friday, September 14, 2007 5:34 PM
> To: Warren DeLano
> Cc: baypiggies at python.org
> Subject: Re: [Baypiggies] Guido's Blog: It isn't Easy to Remove the
> 
> Well, it would require rewriting all existing C extensions, 
> except for the ones that have zero mutable global data. 
> Worse, some C extensions wrap around C libraries that have 
> global mutable data -- for those there is no fix. 
> Realistically, most C code uses global mutable state, and 
> realistically, most Python programs use C extensions.
> 
> On 9/14/07, Warren DeLano <warren at delsci.com> wrote:
> > Hmm...
> >
> > Call me crazy, but it seems to me that the problem isn't so 
> much the 
> > GIL, but rather, it is our inability to simultaneously run multiple 
> > Python interpreters within a single process, with each interpreter 
> > playing nicely with native C extensions and libraries.
> >
> > In other words, it is not the interpreter lock that is so limiting, 
> > rather, it is the fact that the interpreter acts like a global 
> > singleton with respect to the C/API and other native code 
> extensions.
> >
> > To restate this yet another way:  In my perfect 
> Python-embedded world, 
> > the Python interpreter would itself become an object you can 
> > instantiate many times, and the bulk of the C/API would then become 
> > methods called on that object.  Each interpreter instance 
> would still 
> > have its own GIL
> > -- you wouldn't need to deal with microscopic locking, and you 
> > wouldn't lose any of Python's existing performance.
> >
> > Of course, most C/API methods would however need to take 
> "self" as an
> > argument:
> >
> > PyObject *PySome_Action(PythonInterpreterInstance *pythonSelf, ...);
> >
> > However, we could use TLS (thread-local-state) to 
> dynamically bind a 
> > specific interpreter instance to a specific thread.
> >
> > PythonInterpreterInstance *P = ...some extant interpeter 
> instance...;
> >
> > if(PyInstanceViaTLS_BindThread(P)) {
> >
> >   PyGILState_STATE gstate;
> >   gstate = PyGILState_Ensure();
> >
> >   /* global calls within this thread are now directed at a specific 
> > interpreter */
> >
> >   PySome_Action (...);
> >
> >   /* meanwhile, other threads could simultaneously be 
> messaging other 
> > interpreters running in parallel within the same process */
> >
> >   PyGILState_Release(gstate);
> >
> >   PyInstanceViaTLS_UnbindThread();
> > }
> >
> > That simple workaround could preserve compatibility will existing 
> > C/API code, while still freeing us from this crushing 
> global singularity...
> >
> > So is this just crazy talk?  Or might something like this 
> actually be 
> > worth a try?
> >
> > Cheers,
> > Warren
> > warren at delsci.com
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Baypiggies mailing list
> > Baypiggies at python.org
> > To change your subscription options or unsubscribe:
> > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies
> >
> 
> 
> --
> --Guido van Rossum (home page: http://www.python.org/~guido/)
> 
> 
> 
> 

From warren at muse.com  Sat Sep 15 20:00:42 2007
From: warren at muse.com (Warren Stringer)
Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2007 11:00:42 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] Guido's Blog: It isn't Easy to Remove the
In-Reply-To: <ca471dc20709141734i1512447icb332bd05045e9f@mail.gmail.com>
References: <0DB8D1752501D54A89A4725BD9DFE6F41B703A@GLOBE.delsci.local>
	<ca471dc20709141734i1512447icb332bd05045e9f@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <000401c7f7c2$56be32d0$4201a8c0@Muse>

I have an application that could use many cores, a visual music synth. Here
are two snapshots of the ontology:

   Local view: www.muse.com/vj/sky_less.jpg and a somewhat more
   Global view: www.muse.com/vj/sky_mess.jpg  

The way that I dealt with locking was to cache events. These are implemented
within on the green arcs (in the above jpgs). For asynchronous calls, one
way to speed updates is by using a 6 semaphores circular queue with sender
write-only, receiver read-only, and queue manager read-write semaphores. I
tried this technique out on audio streams with around a doubling in
throughput. This works for my application, but I haven't thought through the
more general case. 

The clustering of nodes, in my two examples, uses Newman's algorithm. The
"community" slider, at the bottom left, can change the granularity of the
clustering. If you prefer, a live JAR file can be found here:
www.muse.com/tr3/viz.html 

Why is this relevant? Well think of each shaded area as a possible core. I
would like to run my application on an affordable 80-core TerraFlop chip in
five years. A scheduler could auto-shift the community slider between 1 and
80 cores. 

C libraries are an interesting problem and have both fine-grained and
loose-grain solutions. 

One fine-grain solution is to decompose each C extension into a call graph.
Global mutable state is usually NOT globally used throughout the C
extension. So, a clustering algorithm can decompose an extension into
smaller chunks with function calls marshaled between cluster boundaries.

One loose-grain solution is to provide an interpreter for each extension.
But then, is there a GIL to manage all the little IL's - a LIL GIL?

I like the fine-grained version better because the relevant portion of an
extension may co-reside with byte-code on the same core. Messages are passed
between clusters via non-locking queues. 

Warren Stringer

> On Behalf Of Guido van Rossum
> 
> Well, it would require rewriting all existing C extensions, except for
> the ones that have zero mutable global data. Worse, some C extensions
> wrap around C libraries that have global mutable data -- for those
> there is no fix. Realistically, most C code uses global mutable state,
> and realistically, most Python programs use C extensions.
> 
> On 9/14/07, Warren DeLano <warren at delsci.com> wrote:
...
> > In other words, it is not the interpreter lock that is so limiting,
> > rather, it is the fact that the interpreter acts like a global singleton
> > with respect to the C/API and other native code extensions.
...
> > That simple workaround could preserve compatibility will existing C/API
> > code, while still freeing us from this crushing global singularity...
> >
> > So is this just crazy talk?  Or might something like this actually be
> > worth a try?
...
> > warren at delsci.com
...
> --Guido van Rossum (home page: http://www.python.org/~guido/)


From adam at hupp.org  Sat Sep 15 20:19:58 2007
From: adam at hupp.org (Adam Hupp)
Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2007 14:19:58 -0400
Subject: [Baypiggies] Guido's Blog: It isn't Easy to Remove the GIL
In-Reply-To: <BAY111-F3575072295DC29BB46E77DA0C10@phx.gbl>
References: <BAY111-F3575072295DC29BB46E77DA0C10@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <766a29bd0709151119t3f4c83ao1b14145847753a6@mail.gmail.com>

On 9/11/07, Stephen McInerney <spmcinerney at hotmail.com> wrote:

> - Includes description of the unpromising prior attempt at this on a fork of
> 1.5 with 2x slowdown

According to[0], a large part of the 2X slowdown was lock contention
around dictionary access:

> The largest problem was dealing with dictionaries.
> Since you never knew whether a specific dictionary was shared (between
> threads) or not, you always had to lock the access. And since all namespaces
> use dictionaries...

[0] http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-dev/2001-August/017099.html

One solution to this would be implementing dict with Cliff Click's
lock-free hashmap, described here:

http://blogs.azulsystems.com/cliff/2007/03/a_nonblocking_h.html

A presentation on it:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=2139967204534450862&q=cliff+click&total=197&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=0

That of course does not solve visibility problems but at least the
dict state is guaranteed to be consistent.

-- 
Adam Hupp | http://hupp.org/adam/

From warren at delsci.com  Sat Sep 15 23:01:57 2007
From: warren at delsci.com (Warren DeLano)
Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2007 14:01:57 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] Guido's Blog: It isn't Easy to Remove the
Message-ID: <0DB8D1752501D54A89A4725BD9DFE6F41B703C@GLOBE.delsci.local>

Fazal,

> That said, if your interpreters don't share objects, you 
> might as well put them in separate processes.

Well, that is certainly an opinion held by some, but as an application
developer, I strongly disagree and expect that others would as well. 

There are many small-to-medium sized problems optimally addressed via
multiple lightweight threads within a single process.  It is not so much
an issue of needing to share objects simultaneously, but rather one of
being able to easily transfer objects between interpreters without
incurring serialization overhead.  

In the scientific computing & visualization space, an increasingly
dominant design pattern is data-flow, where streams of data objects are
passed through networks of nodes where each node processes and/or
transforms objects asynchrously and in parallel.  These networks can be
highly branched and complex, but fine-grained locking and complex
synchronization are completely unnecessary since only one node can own &
message any given object at a time.  

At present, CPython cannot support this particular design pattern, but
it likely could through addition of concurrent sub-interpreters along
with a robust mechanism for transferring objects between them.  

Consider: any object with a reference count of one could simply be
"sent" (disappear) from one interpreter and then appear in another
without copying or serialization.  Likewise, objects with reference
counts greater than one would instead be (deep) copied when sent.  That
is a simple and elegant solution that would "just work" as expected --
no batteries required.  

Sure, one could implement something like this through use of shared
memory between processes with one dedicated process per asynchronous
node, but that would be a complex workaround with significant overhead.
Indeed, we already have numerous solutions for process-level parallelism
-- that is really not what this is about.

Concisely stated, the major unmet need as respects parallel CPython is
an inability to easily create single-process shared-memory parallel
programs that optimally exploit multi-core CPUs -- and I predict that
the urgency of this need will double every eighteen months for the
forseeable future.  Realistically, it is not something that can be
safely ignored...

Thus, this need is something that really should be addressed by CPython
3.0, if  possible.  If some limited amount of code needs to be broken to
enable intraprocess parallelism, then the boundary of the major release
is the time to do it.  Without such capabilities, I believe that the
CPython VM will eventually become uncompetitive and its usage will wane.


We do not want a JVM or CLI monkey on our back just to be able to write
parallel Python programs!  But like Guido says:  Quit your complaining
-- and go find a solution!  ...so what are [we] going to do about it?

Though I personally lack the knowledge, skill, and free time to heavily
modify Python source, my company would gladly commit financial resources
(tens of kilobucks) to bring about concurrent sub-interpreters in
CPython 3.0, if there were a credible means of doing so in a way that
would satisfy our esteemed BDFL.

The requirement for a super-interpreter doesn't concern me at all.
Ultimately, some entity has to be responsible for set-up, management,
and take-down of concurrent interpreters, so why not use what already
exists in CPython: the global singleton master interpreter?  Guido has
made it perflectly clear that it isn't going away, so let's work with
what we've got and find a pragmatic way of meeting this need.

(Any bounty hunters lurking?)

Cheers,
Warren

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Fazal Majid [mailto:fmajid at kefta.com] 
> Sent: Friday, September 14, 2007 6:42 PM
> To: Warren DeLano
> Subject: Re: [Baypiggies] Guido's Blog: It isn't Easy to Remove the
> 
> On Sep 14, 2007, at 17:04 , Warren DeLano wrote:
> 
> > Call me crazy, but it seems to me that the problem isn't so 
> much the 
> > GIL, but rather, it is our inability to simultaneously run multiple 
> > Python interpreters within a single process, with each interpreter 
> > playing nicely with native C extensions and libraries.
> 
> mod_python does embed multiple interpreters in a single process.
> That said, if your interpreters don't share objects, you 
> might as well put them in separate processes. If they do 
> share state, coordinating garbage collection, atomic 
> dictionary updates and so on would require creating such 
> overhead that you would have a de-facto super-interpreter 
> that would have its own GIL.
> 
> What we need to do is look at the design patters for 
> concurrent applications and ensure they are well supported by 
> Python. Off the top of my head:
> 
> Divide and conquer (worker pools)
> ---------------------------------
> Spread computationally intensive work among multiple parallel 
> processes, possibly across different machines in a cluster
> 
> Needs good IPC (Queue-like) to distribute work, and 
> mechanisms to start worker processes on demand and manage them.
> 
> Resource pools
> --------------
> Manage a pool of precious resources (e.g. database connections).
> 
> If resource utilization is high, the pool can easily be split 
> across multiple processes. If resource utilization is low 
> because the GIL is the bottleneck, the application can be 
> restructured to move the computation to worker pools.
> 
> Caches
> ------
> The threads share a common cache. Splitting the cache into 
> multiple sub-caches is not desirable because it would reduce 
> hit rates (a single big cache has better hit rates than 
> multiple small caches).
> 
> This can be worked around by doing hash partitioning of the cache.  
> Other mechanisms involve shared memory or database-like approaches.
> 
> ----------------------------------------------------------------
> Fazal Majid  | Acxiom Digital - Kefta
> 415-391-6881 x8014 office | 415-391-7079 fax One Kearny 
> Street, 9th Floor | San Francisco, CA 94109 | USA | www.acxiom.com
> ACXIOM(r)   WE MAKE INFORMATION INTELLIGENT(TM)


From jjinux at gmail.com  Mon Sep 17 09:51:14 2007
From: jjinux at gmail.com (Shannon -jj Behrens)
Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2007 00:51:14 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] Wing IDE 3.0 beta3 released
In-Reply-To: <46E8068C.3070401@wingware.com>
References: <46E8068C.3070401@wingware.com>
Message-ID: <c41f67b90709170051s5c9bafadv4c08775a07afc155@mail.gmail.com>

At the last talk, the speaker mentioned that he didn't use Wing IDE
because it couldn't debug multithreaded code.  It looks like they
fixed that:

Happy Hacking!
-jj

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Wingware <info at wingware.com>
Date: Sep 12, 2007 8:32 AM
Subject: [wingware-announce] Wing IDE 3.0 beta3 released
To: Wing Users <wingide-users at wingware.com>, product-announce at wingware.com


Hi,

We're happy to announce the release of Wing IDE 3.0 beta 3.  It is
available from
http://wingware.com/wingide/beta

This release fixes a number of problems found in the previous beta.
The CHANGELOG.txt file in the installation provides details.

The major new features introduced in Wing 3.0 are:

* Multi-threaded debugger
* Debug value tooltips in editor, debug probe, and interactive shell
* Autocompletion in debug probe and interactive shell
* Automatically updating project directories
* Testing tool, currently supporting unittest derived tests (*)
* OS Commands tool for executing and interacting with external commands (*)
* Rewritten indentation analysis and conversion (*)
* Introduction of Wing IDE 101, a free edition for beginning programmers
* Available as a .deb package for Debian and Ubuntu
* Support for Stackless Python
* Support for 64 bit Python on Windows and Linux

(*)'d items are available in Wing IDE Professional only.

System requirements are Windows 2000 or later, OS X 10.3.9 or later for PPC or
Intel (requires X11 Server), or a recent Linux system (either 32 or 64 bit).

Compatibility Notes
-------------------

The file pattern in the Testing tab of Project Properties will need
to be re-entered if the project was saved with one of the 3.0 alpha
releases.

Reporting Bugs
--------------

Please report bugs using the Submit Bug Report item in the Help menu or by
emailing support at wingware dot com.  This is beta quality software that
installs side-by-side with Wing 2.x or 1.x. We advise you to make frequent
backups of your work when using any pre-release version of Wing IDE.

Upgrading
---------

To upgrade a 2.x license or purchase a new 3.x license:

Upgrade        https://wingware.com/store/upgrade
Purchase       https://wingware.com/store/purchase

Any 2.x license sold after May 2nd 2006 is free to upgrade; others cost
1/2 the normal price to upgrade.

If you are not ready to upgrade, feel free to keep using a series of trial
licenses. There will be no limit on the number of trials until 3.0 final is out.

Thanks!

The Wingware Team
Wingware | Python IDE
Advancing Software Development

www.wingware.com


_______________________________________________
Wing IDE announcements mailing list
http://wingide.com/lists/announce


-- 
http://jjinux.blogspot.com/

From jjinux at gmail.com  Mon Sep 17 11:06:22 2007
From: jjinux at gmail.com (Shannon -jj Behrens)
Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2007 02:06:22 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] Guido's Blog: It isn't Easy to Remove the GIL
In-Reply-To: <239424.9169.qm@web30713.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <239424.9169.qm@web30713.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <c41f67b90709170206h9f14ba3qd5d617c3897c4eaa@mail.gmail.com>

In a former life, I was hanging out at a PHP users' group meeting, and
I asked Rasmus Lerdorf what he had against exceptions and why he had
left them out the language.  This was in the PHP 3 days.  He said, "I
just don't know how to implement them.  If you can figure out how to
do it, I'd be happy to include them."  Hahaha.  Ah, history!

(I'm not really trying to prove anything--it's just a funny story.)

-jj

On 9/14/07, Adam Ulvi <adamlulvi at yahoo.com> wrote:
> I thought that telling people to "write it yourself if you want it so damn much" was the open-source version of Godwin's law.  ;-)
>
> Seriously, I wasn't aware the GIL was such a hot-button, I'll try to avoid bringing it up in polite company from now on.
>
> - A
>
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: Guido van Rossum <guido at python.org>
> To: Andy Wiggin <andywiggin at gmail.com>
> Cc: baypiggies at python.org
> Sent: Friday, September 14, 2007 12:23:29 PM
> Subject: Re: [Baypiggies] Guido's Blog: It isn't Easy to Remove the GIL
>
> On 9/13/07, Andy Wiggin <andywiggin at gmail.com> wrote:
> > I thought the discussion was very interesting. I think true parallel
> > programming is the challenge of our time, so I'm quite disappointed
> > that the Python powers that be do not seem to feel any imperative to
> > address it. I've always been kind of assuming that Python would
> > provide a "pythonic" parallel programming paradigm that would "just
> > work" and be as elegant as the rest of the language.
>
> I'm sorry, but this attitude just really pisses me off. Python is the
> work of many people. If you want something to happen, make it happen.
> Don't wait for someone else to solve your problem for you.
>
> --
> --Guido van Rossum (home page: http://www.python.org/~guido/)
> _______________________________________________
> Baypiggies mailing list
> Baypiggies at python.org
> To change your subscription options or unsubscribe:
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ____________________________________________________________________________________
> Need a vacation? Get great deals
> to amazing places on Yahoo! Travel.
> http://travel.yahoo.com/
> _______________________________________________
> Baypiggies mailing list
> Baypiggies at python.org
> To change your subscription options or unsubscribe:
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies
>


-- 
http://jjinux.blogspot.com/

From jjinux at gmail.com  Mon Sep 17 11:48:03 2007
From: jjinux at gmail.com (Shannon -jj Behrens)
Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2007 02:48:03 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] concurrency talk
Message-ID: <c41f67b90709170248v10725afeyd7f137368129bb62@mail.gmail.com>

Someone hinted at this idea earlier, but it might be fun to have an
overview discussion on a bunch of different concurrency techniques.
We could have a bunch of speakers, each speaking for 15 minutes on a
specific topic.  For instance:

* Processes
* Threads (kernel and green)
* Parallel programming vs. distributed computing
* IO bound vs. CPU bound
* Asynchronous
* Twisted
* Stackless
* Actors
* Erlang

We wouldn't actually try to cover how to use each of these.  Rather,
the goal would be to explain what it is and what are its advantages
and limitations.  That'd be a fun talk to give assuming we can keep it
shallow enough to cover everything but deep enough to make sense.

Happy Hacking!
-jj

-- 
http://jjinux.blogspot.com/

From cvanarsdall at mvista.com  Mon Sep 17 17:59:53 2007
From: cvanarsdall at mvista.com (Carl J. Van Arsdall)
Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2007 08:59:53 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] concurrency talk
In-Reply-To: <c41f67b90709170248v10725afeyd7f137368129bb62@mail.gmail.com>
References: <c41f67b90709170248v10725afeyd7f137368129bb62@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <46EEA479.7010706@mvista.com>

Shannon -jj Behrens wrote:
> Someone hinted at this idea earlier, but it might be fun to have an
> overview discussion on a bunch of different concurrency techniques.
> We could have a bunch of speakers, each speaking for 15 minutes on a
> specific topic.  For instance:
>
> * Processes
> * Threads (kernel and green)
> * Parallel programming vs. distributed computing
> * IO bound vs. CPU bound
> * Asynchronous
> * Twisted
> * Stackless
> * Actors
> * Erlang
>
> We wouldn't actually try to cover how to use each of these.  Rather,
> the goal would be to explain what it is and what are its advantages
> and limitations.  That'd be a fun talk to give assuming we can keep it
> shallow enough to cover everything but deep enough to make sense.
>
>   
I think its a good idea but I'd be more interested in specific python 
technologies that provide the various parallel execution techniques (I 
personally wouldn't be too interested in learning about threads vs 
processes again, but I think stackless would be really cool from what i 
gathered at pycon).  I've seen a number technologies out there but don't 
know too much about any particular one of them.  I've heard that scipy 
provides some kind of alternative parallel mechanism for the heavy math 
calculations, that might be cool to learn about.  Another thing I'd be 
interested in learning, if anyone knew anything about it, would be the 
distributed computing side of things (maybe someone's got a cool 
dispatcher that can take chunks of python code and ship the whole block 
of it to a remote site for execution, and maybe I should just research 
it myself ;)  ).


Just some thoughts,

Carl

-- 

Carl J. Van Arsdall
cvanarsdall at mvista.com
Build and Release
MontaVista Software

Vision 2007 Embedded Linux Dev Conf Oct 8-10 http://www.mvista.com/vision



From simeonf at gmail.com  Mon Sep 17 18:30:18 2007
From: simeonf at gmail.com (Simeon Franklin)
Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2007 09:30:18 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] Baypiggies Digest, Vol 23, Issue 15
In-Reply-To: <mailman.35.1190023215.29291.baypiggies@python.org>
References: <mailman.35.1190023215.29291.baypiggies@python.org>
Message-ID: <e58a4bea0709170930u5f744500hec2af5fce1604000@mail.gmail.com>

+1 to the concurrency talk.  Also there was discussion of having a
NumPy/SciPy presenter back in April but difficulty in finding a presenter.
Are we still pursuing that? I've got at least one non-programmer friend
(physicist @ LLNL) who would come ...

-regards
Simeon Franklin

From: "Shannon -jj Behrens" <jjinux at gmail.com>
> Subject: [Baypiggies] concurrency talk
> To: Python <baypiggies at python.org>
> Message-ID:
>         <c41f67b90709170248v10725afeyd7f137368129bb62 at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>
> Someone hinted at this idea earlier, but it might be fun to have an
> overview discussion on a bunch of different concurrency techniques.
> We could have a bunch of speakers, each speaking for 15 minutes on a
> specific topic.  For instance:
>
> * Processes
> * Threads (kernel and green)
> * Parallel programming vs. distributed computing
> * IO bound vs. CPU bound
> * Asynchronous
> * Twisted
> * Stackless
> * Actors
> * Erlang
>
> We wouldn't actually try to cover how to use each of these.  Rather,
> the goal would be to explain what it is and what are its advantages
> and limitations.  That'd be a fun talk to give assuming we can keep it
> shallow enough to cover everything but deep enough to make sense.
>
> Happy Hacking!
> -jj
>
> --
> http://jjinux.blogspot.com/
>
>
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From warren at muse.com  Mon Sep 17 18:48:43 2007
From: warren at muse.com (Warren Stringer)
Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2007 09:48:43 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] Baypiggies Digest, Vol 23, Issue 15
In-Reply-To: <e58a4bea0709170930u5f744500hec2af5fce1604000@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.35.1190023215.29291.baypiggies@python.org>
	<e58a4bea0709170930u5f744500hec2af5fce1604000@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <001801c7f94a$9c253a10$4201a8c0@Muse>

+1 on concurrency

 

  _____  

From: baypiggies-bounces at python.org [mailto:baypiggies-bounces at python.org]
On Behalf Of Simeon Franklin
Sent: Monday, September 17, 2007 9:30 AM
To: baypiggies at python.org
Subject: Re: [Baypiggies] Baypiggies Digest, Vol 23, Issue 15

 

+1 to the concurrency talk.  Also there was discussion of having a
NumPy/SciPy presenter back in April but difficulty in finding a presenter.
Are we still pursuing that? I've got at least one non-programmer friend
(physicist @ LLNL) who would come ... 

-regards
Simeon Franklin

From: "Shannon -jj Behrens" < jjinux at gmail.com <mailto:jjinux at gmail.com> >
Subject: [Baypiggies] concurrency talk
To: Python <baypiggies at python.org>
Message-ID:
        <
<mailto:c41f67b90709170248v10725afeyd7f137368129bb62 at mail.gmail.com>
c41f67b90709170248v10725afeyd7f137368129bb62 at mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

Someone hinted at this idea earlier, but it might be fun to have an
overview discussion on a bunch of different concurrency techniques. 
We could have a bunch of speakers, each speaking for 15 minutes on a
specific topic.  For instance:

* Processes
* Threads (kernel and green)
* Parallel programming vs. distributed computing
* IO bound vs. CPU bound 
* Asynchronous
* Twisted
* Stackless
* Actors
* Erlang

We wouldn't actually try to cover how to use each of these.  Rather,
the goal would be to explain what it is and what are its advantages 
and limitations.  That'd be a fun talk to give assuming we can keep it
shallow enough to cover everything but deep enough to make sense.

Happy Hacking!
-jj

--
http://jjinux.blogspot.com/

 

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From jim at well.com  Mon Sep 17 18:53:16 2007
From: jim at well.com (jim stockford)
Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2007 09:53:16 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] concurrency talk
In-Reply-To: <c41f67b90709170248v10725afeyd7f137368129bb62@mail.gmail.com>
References: <c41f67b90709170248v10725afeyd7f137368129bb62@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <556aa59e3ab38fd848a933c7440a5374@well.com>


    maybe add E to the list (below Erlang)?

    could the discussoin also include likely new CPU
designs, PCB designs, embedded and desktop and
server systems as well.


On Sep 17, 2007, at 2:48 AM, Shannon -jj Behrens wrote:

> Someone hinted at this idea earlier, but it might be fun to have an
> overview discussion on a bunch of different concurrency techniques.
> We could have a bunch of speakers, each speaking for 15 minutes on a
> specific topic.  For instance:
>
> * Processes
> * Threads (kernel and green)
> * Parallel programming vs. distributed computing
> * IO bound vs. CPU bound
> * Asynchronous
> * Twisted
> * Stackless
> * Actors
> * Erlang
>
> We wouldn't actually try to cover how to use each of these.  Rather,
> the goal would be to explain what it is and what are its advantages
> and limitations.  That'd be a fun talk to give assuming we can keep it
> shallow enough to cover everything but deep enough to make sense.
>
> Happy Hacking!
> -jj
>
> -- 
> http://jjinux.blogspot.com/
> _______________________________________________
> Baypiggies mailing list
> Baypiggies at python.org
> To change your subscription options or unsubscribe:
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies
>


From jim at well.com  Mon Sep 17 19:05:22 2007
From: jim at well.com (jim stockford)
Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2007 10:05:22 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] Baypiggies Digest, Vol 23, Issue 15
In-Reply-To: <e58a4bea0709170930u5f744500hec2af5fce1604000@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.35.1190023215.29291.baypiggies@python.org>
	<e58a4bea0709170930u5f744500hec2af5fce1604000@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <c976b3ea4c6f0017af98933de05cfe9d@well.com>


    i fell off the {num,sci}py truck. thanks for the reminder.
based on my previous efforts, don't hold your breath,
but if you know someone who could present or if you
can steer me somehow, i'd be grateful. there seems a
lot of interest.


On Sep 17, 2007, at 9:30 AM, Simeon Franklin wrote:

> +1 to the concurrency talk.? Also there was discussion of having a 
> NumPy/SciPy presenter back in April but difficulty in finding a 
> presenter. Are we still pursuing that? I've got at least one 
> non-programmer friend (physicist @ LLNL) who would come ...
>
> -regards
> Simeon Franklin
>
>> From: "Shannon -jj Behrens" < jjinux at gmail.com>
>> Subject: [Baypiggies] concurrency talk
>> To: Python <baypiggies at python.org>
>> Message-ID:
>> ????????< c41f67b90709170248v10725afeyd7f137368129bb62 at mail.gmail.com>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>>
>> Someone hinted at this idea earlier, but it might be fun to have an
>> overview discussion on a bunch of different concurrency techniques.
>> We could have a bunch of speakers, each speaking for 15 minutes on a
>> specific topic.??For instance:
>>
>> * Processes
>> * Threads (kernel and green)
>> * Parallel programming vs. distributed computing
>> * IO bound vs. CPU bound
>> * Asynchronous
>> * Twisted
>> * Stackless
>> * Actors
>> * Erlang
>>
>> We wouldn't actually try to cover how to use each of these.??Rather,
>> the goal would be to explain what it is and what are its advantages
>> and limitations.??That'd be a fun talk to give assuming we can keep it
>> shallow enough to cover everything but deep enough to make sense.
>>
>> Happy Hacking!
>> -jj
>>
>> --
>>  http://jjinux.blogspot.com/
>>
> _______________________________________________
> Baypiggies mailing list
> Baypiggies at python.org
> To change your subscription options or unsubscribe:
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies

From adamlulvi at yahoo.com  Mon Sep 17 19:39:37 2007
From: adamlulvi at yahoo.com (Adam Ulvi)
Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2007 10:39:37 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Baypiggies] concurrency talk
Message-ID: <177995.10121.qm@web30708.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

+1 concurrency as well.

I'd also be interesting in hearing about Scala agents.

- A

----- Original Message ----
From: jim stockford <jim at well.com>
To: Shannon -jj Behrens <jjinux at gmail.com>
Cc: Python <baypiggies at python.org>
Sent: Monday, September 17, 2007 9:53:16 AM
Subject: Re: [Baypiggies] concurrency talk


    maybe add E to the list (below Erlang)?

    could the discussoin also include likely new CPU
designs, PCB designs, embedded and desktop and
server systems as well.


On Sep 17, 2007, at 2:48 AM, Shannon -jj Behrens wrote:

> Someone hinted at this idea earlier, but it might be fun to have an
> overview discussion on a bunch of different concurrency techniques.
> We could have a bunch of speakers, each speaking for 15 minutes on a
> specific topic.  For instance:
>
> * Processes
> * Threads (kernel and green)
> * Parallel programming vs. distributed computing
> * IO bound vs. CPU bound
> * Asynchronous
> * Twisted
> * Stackless
> * Actors
> * Erlang
>
> We wouldn't actually try to cover how to use each of these.  Rather,
> the goal would be to explain what it is and what are its advantages
> and limitations.  That'd be a fun talk to give assuming we can keep it
> shallow enough to cover everything but deep enough to make sense.
>
> Happy Hacking!
> -jj
>
> -- 
> http://jjinux.blogspot.com/
> _______________________________________________
> Baypiggies mailing list
> Baypiggies at python.org
> To change your subscription options or unsubscribe:
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies
>

_______________________________________________
Baypiggies mailing list
Baypiggies at python.org
To change your subscription options or unsubscribe:
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies





       
____________________________________________________________________________________
Yahoo! oneSearch: Finally, mobile search 
that gives answers, not web links. 
http://mobile.yahoo.com/mobileweb/onesearch?refer=1ONXIC

From guido at python.org  Mon Sep 17 19:55:40 2007
From: guido at python.org (Guido van Rossum)
Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2007 10:55:40 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] concurrency talk
In-Reply-To: <556aa59e3ab38fd848a933c7440a5374@well.com>
References: <c41f67b90709170248v10725afeyd7f137368129bb62@mail.gmail.com>
	<556aa59e3ab38fd848a933c7440a5374@well.com>
Message-ID: <ca471dc20709171055j1467a73rf7d5b005c3d2e758@mail.gmail.com>

I was thinking of E as well, but then I realized that E supports
*distributed* computing, which isn't quite the same field as
*parallel* computing. I'm not sure it's useful to increase the field
even more by adding distributed computing -- then you'd have to add
MapReduce and many other paradigms as well.

On 9/17/07, jim stockford <jim at well.com> wrote:
>
>     maybe add E to the list (below Erlang)?
>
>     could the discussoin also include likely new CPU
> designs, PCB designs, embedded and desktop and
> server systems as well.
>
>
> On Sep 17, 2007, at 2:48 AM, Shannon -jj Behrens wrote:
>
> > Someone hinted at this idea earlier, but it might be fun to have an
> > overview discussion on a bunch of different concurrency techniques.
> > We could have a bunch of speakers, each speaking for 15 minutes on a
> > specific topic.  For instance:
> >
> > * Processes
> > * Threads (kernel and green)
> > * Parallel programming vs. distributed computing
> > * IO bound vs. CPU bound
> > * Asynchronous
> > * Twisted
> > * Stackless
> > * Actors
> > * Erlang
> >
> > We wouldn't actually try to cover how to use each of these.  Rather,
> > the goal would be to explain what it is and what are its advantages
> > and limitations.  That'd be a fun talk to give assuming we can keep it
> > shallow enough to cover everything but deep enough to make sense.
> >
> > Happy Hacking!
> > -jj
> >
> > --
> > http://jjinux.blogspot.com/
> > _______________________________________________
> > Baypiggies mailing list
> > Baypiggies at python.org
> > To change your subscription options or unsubscribe:
> > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies
> >
>
> _______________________________________________
> Baypiggies mailing list
> Baypiggies at python.org
> To change your subscription options or unsubscribe:
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies
>


-- 
--Guido van Rossum (home page: http://www.python.org/~guido/)

From dreid at dreid.org  Mon Sep 17 19:14:59 2007
From: dreid at dreid.org (David Reid)
Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2007 10:14:59 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] concurrency talk
In-Reply-To: <c41f67b90709170248v10725afeyd7f137368129bb62@mail.gmail.com>
References: <c41f67b90709170248v10725afeyd7f137368129bb62@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5C579223-B73F-495B-B0F0-B816D02C0DB8@dreid.org>


On Sep 17, 2007, at 2:48 AM, Shannon -jj Behrens wrote:


> Someone hinted at this idea earlier, but it might be fun to have an
> overview discussion on a bunch of different concurrency techniques.
> We could have a bunch of speakers, each speaking for 15 minutes on a
> specific topic.
>

I'm inclined to think that 15 minutes isn't long enough to really  
introduce any one of these topics to someone who is new to dealing  
with concurrency.  Though I would be interested in series of full  
length meetings dealing with concurrency perhaps culminating in some  
sort of round table discussion.

The fact of the matter is, there is no general solution to  
concurrency, especially in Python where concurrency frameworks seem  
to be the new web framework.  Also like web frameworks anyone who has  
an interesting opinion on the subject has already decided that their  
way is the best and is often under the delusion that it's a general  
solution.

That being said, I'd be very interested in hearing other peoples  
strong opinions on the subject as long as they are accompanied by  
practical experience solving specific problems.  Specifically I'm  
interested in hearing someone speak on Parallel Python, greenlets and  
Erlang.  In exchange for any of these topics I'd be willing to give a  
Twisted talk, though at this point in time I'm completely unable to  
commit to a specific date that isn't  _at_least_ 3 months out.

I'm also inclined to disagree that we shouldn't try to discuss how to  
actually use these things.  Learning the practical limitations of the  
implementation of the thing you want to use right now to accomplish  
some task seems a lot more interesting to me than learning the  
theoretical limitations of it.

-David



From andywiggin at gmail.com  Mon Sep 17 20:14:06 2007
From: andywiggin at gmail.com (Andy Wiggin)
Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2007 11:14:06 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] Guido's Blog: It isn't Easy to Remove the GIL
In-Reply-To: <c41f67b90709170206h9f14ba3qd5d617c3897c4eaa@mail.gmail.com>
References: <239424.9169.qm@web30713.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<c41f67b90709170206h9f14ba3qd5d617c3897c4eaa@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <74e7428a0709171114ye4b0c57x176be7897cf75e63@mail.gmail.com>

FYI: I'm sure many of you have already seen this since it's been out
for almost a year, but if not, you might find it an interesting
overview of parallel/multi-core computing.

  http://www.eecs.berkeley.edu/Pubs/TechRpts/2006/EECS-2006-183.html

and associated wiki

  http://view.eecs.berkeley.edu/wiki/Main_Page

-Andy

From jim at well.com  Mon Sep 17 20:36:12 2007
From: jim at well.com (jim stockford)
Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2007 11:36:12 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] concurrency talk
In-Reply-To: <ca471dc20709171055j1467a73rf7d5b005c3d2e758@mail.gmail.com>
References: <c41f67b90709170248v10725afeyd7f137368129bb62@mail.gmail.com>
	<556aa59e3ab38fd848a933c7440a5374@well.com>
	<ca471dc20709171055j1467a73rf7d5b005c3d2e758@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <cec1f566ecdd95c5b232b94f92653f6e@well.com>


    i'm easily confused (disclaimer), but i've got the idea that
in-the-future, the problems presented by distributed computing
and parallel processing may overlap, blur.... what's the truth
to that idea? (if some, then maybe looking at E has some
value.)


On Sep 17, 2007, at 10:55 AM, Guido van Rossum wrote:

> I was thinking of E as well, but then I realized that E supports
> *distributed* computing, which isn't quite the same field as
> *parallel* computing. I'm not sure it's useful to increase the field
> even more by adding distributed computing -- then you'd have to add
> MapReduce and many other paradigms as well.
>
> On 9/17/07, jim stockford <jim at well.com> wrote:
>>
>>     maybe add E to the list (below Erlang)?
>>
>>     could the discussoin also include likely new CPU
>> designs, PCB designs, embedded and desktop and
>> server systems as well.
>>
>>
>> On Sep 17, 2007, at 2:48 AM, Shannon -jj Behrens wrote:
>>
>>> Someone hinted at this idea earlier, but it might be fun to have an
>>> overview discussion on a bunch of different concurrency techniques.
>>> We could have a bunch of speakers, each speaking for 15 minutes on a
>>> specific topic.  For instance:
>>>
>>> * Processes
>>> * Threads (kernel and green)
>>> * Parallel programming vs. distributed computing
>>> * IO bound vs. CPU bound
>>> * Asynchronous
>>> * Twisted
>>> * Stackless
>>> * Actors
>>> * Erlang
>>>
>>> We wouldn't actually try to cover how to use each of these.  Rather,
>>> the goal would be to explain what it is and what are its advantages
>>> and limitations.  That'd be a fun talk to give assuming we can keep 
>>> it
>>> shallow enough to cover everything but deep enough to make sense.
>>>
>>> Happy Hacking!
>>> -jj
>>>
>>> --
>>> http://jjinux.blogspot.com/
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Baypiggies mailing list
>>> Baypiggies at python.org
>>> To change your subscription options or unsubscribe:
>>> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies
>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Baypiggies mailing list
>> Baypiggies at python.org
>> To change your subscription options or unsubscribe:
>> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies
>>
>
>
> -- 
> --Guido van Rossum (home page: http://www.python.org/~guido/)
>


From guido at python.org  Mon Sep 17 20:41:56 2007
From: guido at python.org (Guido van Rossum)
Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2007 11:41:56 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] concurrency talk
In-Reply-To: <cec1f566ecdd95c5b232b94f92653f6e@well.com>
References: <c41f67b90709170248v10725afeyd7f137368129bb62@mail.gmail.com>
	<556aa59e3ab38fd848a933c7440a5374@well.com>
	<ca471dc20709171055j1467a73rf7d5b005c3d2e758@mail.gmail.com>
	<cec1f566ecdd95c5b232b94f92653f6e@well.com>
Message-ID: <ca471dc20709171141h27a34186g52f784588cfdcb1a@mail.gmail.com>

I believe the failure modes and trust models are fundamentally
different. In distributed computing, you have to deal with nodes that
are lying (an important motivation for E, actually) as well as network
partitions where two groups of nodes continue to work but have
fundamentally different views of the world. In parallel computing,
there are no trust issues, and typically a failing CPU either causes
the entire computation to fail (I expect that this is how 2-8 core
systems deal with a single CPU failing -- at best you can disable a
CPU at boot time) or at least is taken out of the computation
permanently.

On 9/17/07, jim stockford <jim at well.com> wrote:
>
>     i'm easily confused (disclaimer), but i've got the idea that
> in-the-future, the problems presented by distributed computing
> and parallel processing may overlap, blur.... what's the truth
> to that idea? (if some, then maybe looking at E has some
> value.)
>
>
> On Sep 17, 2007, at 10:55 AM, Guido van Rossum wrote:
>
> > I was thinking of E as well, but then I realized that E supports
> > *distributed* computing, which isn't quite the same field as
> > *parallel* computing. I'm not sure it's useful to increase the field
> > even more by adding distributed computing -- then you'd have to add
> > MapReduce and many other paradigms as well.
> >
> > On 9/17/07, jim stockford <jim at well.com> wrote:
> >>
> >>     maybe add E to the list (below Erlang)?
> >>
> >>     could the discussoin also include likely new CPU
> >> designs, PCB designs, embedded and desktop and
> >> server systems as well.
> >>
> >>
> >> On Sep 17, 2007, at 2:48 AM, Shannon -jj Behrens wrote:
> >>
> >>> Someone hinted at this idea earlier, but it might be fun to have an
> >>> overview discussion on a bunch of different concurrency techniques.
> >>> We could have a bunch of speakers, each speaking for 15 minutes on a
> >>> specific topic.  For instance:
> >>>
> >>> * Processes
> >>> * Threads (kernel and green)
> >>> * Parallel programming vs. distributed computing
> >>> * IO bound vs. CPU bound
> >>> * Asynchronous
> >>> * Twisted
> >>> * Stackless
> >>> * Actors
> >>> * Erlang
> >>>
> >>> We wouldn't actually try to cover how to use each of these.  Rather,
> >>> the goal would be to explain what it is and what are its advantages
> >>> and limitations.  That'd be a fun talk to give assuming we can keep
> >>> it
> >>> shallow enough to cover everything but deep enough to make sense.
> >>>
> >>> Happy Hacking!
> >>> -jj
> >>>
> >>> --
> >>> http://jjinux.blogspot.com/
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> Baypiggies mailing list
> >>> Baypiggies at python.org
> >>> To change your subscription options or unsubscribe:
> >>> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies
> >>>
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Baypiggies mailing list
> >> Baypiggies at python.org
> >> To change your subscription options or unsubscribe:
> >> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies
> >>
> >
> >
> > --
> > --Guido van Rossum (home page: http://www.python.org/~guido/)
> >
>
>


-- 
--Guido van Rossum (home page: http://www.python.org/~guido/)

From jjinux at gmail.com  Tue Sep 18 02:11:16 2007
From: jjinux at gmail.com (Shannon -jj Behrens)
Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2007 17:11:16 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] concurrency talk
In-Reply-To: <46EEA479.7010706@mvista.com>
References: <c41f67b90709170248v10725afeyd7f137368129bb62@mail.gmail.com>
	<46EEA479.7010706@mvista.com>
Message-ID: <c41f67b90709171711t485ed7aap284b5c499214e0b3@mail.gmail.com>

On 9/17/07, Carl J. Van Arsdall <cvanarsdall at mvista.com> wrote:
> Shannon -jj Behrens wrote:
> > Someone hinted at this idea earlier, but it might be fun to have an
> > overview discussion on a bunch of different concurrency techniques.
> > We could have a bunch of speakers, each speaking for 15 minutes on a
> > specific topic.  For instance:
> >
> > * Processes
> > * Threads (kernel and green)
> > * Parallel programming vs. distributed computing
> > * IO bound vs. CPU bound
> > * Asynchronous
> > * Twisted
> > * Stackless
> > * Actors
> > * Erlang
> >
> > We wouldn't actually try to cover how to use each of these.  Rather,
> > the goal would be to explain what it is and what are its advantages
> > and limitations.  That'd be a fun talk to give assuming we can keep it
> > shallow enough to cover everything but deep enough to make sense.
> >
> >
> I think its a good idea but I'd be more interested in specific python
> technologies that provide the various parallel execution techniques (I
> personally wouldn't be too interested in learning about threads vs
> processes again, but I think stackless would be really cool from what i
> gathered at pycon).  I've seen a number technologies out there but don't
> know too much about any particular one of them.  I've heard that scipy
> provides some kind of alternative parallel mechanism for the heavy math
> calculations, that might be cool to learn about.  Another thing I'd be
> interested in learning, if anyone knew anything about it, would be the
> distributed computing side of things (maybe someone's got a cool
> dispatcher that can take chunks of python code and ship the whole block
> of it to a remote site for execution, and maybe I should just research
> it myself ;)  ).
>
>
> Just some thoughts,

Concerning your SciPy comment, I blogged about this here:
http://jjinux.blogspot.com/2007/02/pycon-interactive-parallel-and.html

There's also an open source version of Google's MapReduce which I
tried out and blogged about here:
http://jjinux.blogspot.com/2007/01/clustering-hadoop.html

Best Regards,
-jj

-- 
http://jjinux.blogspot.com/

From jjinux at gmail.com  Tue Sep 18 02:14:15 2007
From: jjinux at gmail.com (Shannon -jj Behrens)
Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2007 17:14:15 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] concurrency talk
In-Reply-To: <ca471dc20709171055j1467a73rf7d5b005c3d2e758@mail.gmail.com>
References: <c41f67b90709170248v10725afeyd7f137368129bb62@mail.gmail.com>
	<556aa59e3ab38fd848a933c7440a5374@well.com>
	<ca471dc20709171055j1467a73rf7d5b005c3d2e758@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <c41f67b90709171714r31b8ca35kec3d5033a59206aa@mail.gmail.com>

I think MapReduce should definitely be covered.  I think a lot more
people are going to care about distributed computing than parallel
computing.  At least, that's been my experience at my last three
companies.

-jj

On 9/17/07, Guido van Rossum <guido at python.org> wrote:
> I was thinking of E as well, but then I realized that E supports
> *distributed* computing, which isn't quite the same field as
> *parallel* computing. I'm not sure it's useful to increase the field
> even more by adding distributed computing -- then you'd have to add
> MapReduce and many other paradigms as well.
>
> On 9/17/07, jim stockford <jim at well.com> wrote:
> >
> >     maybe add E to the list (below Erlang)?
> >
> >     could the discussoin also include likely new CPU
> > designs, PCB designs, embedded and desktop and
> > server systems as well.
> >
> >
> > On Sep 17, 2007, at 2:48 AM, Shannon -jj Behrens wrote:
> >
> > > Someone hinted at this idea earlier, but it might be fun to have an
> > > overview discussion on a bunch of different concurrency techniques.
> > > We could have a bunch of speakers, each speaking for 15 minutes on a
> > > specific topic.  For instance:
> > >
> > > * Processes
> > > * Threads (kernel and green)
> > > * Parallel programming vs. distributed computing
> > > * IO bound vs. CPU bound
> > > * Asynchronous
> > > * Twisted
> > > * Stackless
> > > * Actors
> > > * Erlang
> > >
> > > We wouldn't actually try to cover how to use each of these.  Rather,
> > > the goal would be to explain what it is and what are its advantages
> > > and limitations.  That'd be a fun talk to give assuming we can keep it
> > > shallow enough to cover everything but deep enough to make sense.
> > >
> > > Happy Hacking!
> > > -jj
> > >
> > > --
> > > http://jjinux.blogspot.com/
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Baypiggies mailing list
> > > Baypiggies at python.org
> > > To change your subscription options or unsubscribe:
> > > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies
> > >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Baypiggies mailing list
> > Baypiggies at python.org
> > To change your subscription options or unsubscribe:
> > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies
> >
>
>
> --
> --Guido van Rossum (home page: http://www.python.org/~guido/)
>


-- 
http://jjinux.blogspot.com/

From guido at python.org  Tue Sep 18 02:27:10 2007
From: guido at python.org (Guido van Rossum)
Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2007 17:27:10 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] concurrency talk
In-Reply-To: <c41f67b90709171714r31b8ca35kec3d5033a59206aa@mail.gmail.com>
References: <c41f67b90709170248v10725afeyd7f137368129bb62@mail.gmail.com>
	<556aa59e3ab38fd848a933c7440a5374@well.com>
	<ca471dc20709171055j1467a73rf7d5b005c3d2e758@mail.gmail.com>
	<c41f67b90709171714r31b8ca35kec3d5033a59206aa@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <ca471dc20709171727o1c6c795fp4e573e63b222db72@mail.gmail.com>

Possibly, but it *is* quite a change in topic. The discussions that
lead us here all got started by the desire to use multiple cores on a
single box, and the solutions suggested (from removing the GIL to
Erlang-style lightweight processes) are all geared towards that
scenario, and not towards distributed computing. The latter will
always scale to much larger jobs, but will also always be much more
painful to program.

On 9/17/07, Shannon -jj Behrens <jjinux at gmail.com> wrote:
> I think MapReduce should definitely be covered.  I think a lot more
> people are going to care about distributed computing than parallel
> computing.  At least, that's been my experience at my last three
> companies.
>
> -jj
>
> On 9/17/07, Guido van Rossum <guido at python.org> wrote:
> > I was thinking of E as well, but then I realized that E supports
> > *distributed* computing, which isn't quite the same field as
> > *parallel* computing. I'm not sure it's useful to increase the field
> > even more by adding distributed computing -- then you'd have to add
> > MapReduce and many other paradigms as well.
> >
> > On 9/17/07, jim stockford <jim at well.com> wrote:
> > >
> > >     maybe add E to the list (below Erlang)?
> > >
> > >     could the discussoin also include likely new CPU
> > > designs, PCB designs, embedded and desktop and
> > > server systems as well.
> > >
> > >
> > > On Sep 17, 2007, at 2:48 AM, Shannon -jj Behrens wrote:
> > >
> > > > Someone hinted at this idea earlier, but it might be fun to have an
> > > > overview discussion on a bunch of different concurrency techniques.
> > > > We could have a bunch of speakers, each speaking for 15 minutes on a
> > > > specific topic.  For instance:
> > > >
> > > > * Processes
> > > > * Threads (kernel and green)
> > > > * Parallel programming vs. distributed computing
> > > > * IO bound vs. CPU bound
> > > > * Asynchronous
> > > > * Twisted
> > > > * Stackless
> > > > * Actors
> > > > * Erlang
> > > >
> > > > We wouldn't actually try to cover how to use each of these.  Rather,
> > > > the goal would be to explain what it is and what are its advantages
> > > > and limitations.  That'd be a fun talk to give assuming we can keep it
> > > > shallow enough to cover everything but deep enough to make sense.
> > > >
> > > > Happy Hacking!
> > > > -jj
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > http://jjinux.blogspot.com/
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Baypiggies mailing list
> > > > Baypiggies at python.org
> > > > To change your subscription options or unsubscribe:
> > > > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies
> > > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Baypiggies mailing list
> > > Baypiggies at python.org
> > > To change your subscription options or unsubscribe:
> > > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies
> > >
> >
> >
> > --
> > --Guido van Rossum (home page: http://www.python.org/~guido/)
> >
>
>
> --
> http://jjinux.blogspot.com/
>


-- 
--Guido van Rossum (home page: http://www.python.org/~guido/)

From jjinux at gmail.com  Tue Sep 18 02:40:06 2007
From: jjinux at gmail.com (Shannon -jj Behrens)
Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2007 17:40:06 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] concurrency talk
In-Reply-To: <ca471dc20709171727o1c6c795fp4e573e63b222db72@mail.gmail.com>
References: <c41f67b90709170248v10725afeyd7f137368129bb62@mail.gmail.com>
	<556aa59e3ab38fd848a933c7440a5374@well.com>
	<ca471dc20709171055j1467a73rf7d5b005c3d2e758@mail.gmail.com>
	<c41f67b90709171714r31b8ca35kec3d5033a59206aa@mail.gmail.com>
	<ca471dc20709171727o1c6c795fp4e573e63b222db72@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <c41f67b90709171740g29451c2m6fc8302fbb061775@mail.gmail.com>

Good point.  Of course Erlang makes it easy to do both via the same
mechanism, but I agree with you completely.  It does make sense to
focus for a while on what you can do with a single machine.  Note, I'm
not using the term "parallel" because that implies "same code,
different data," whereas I'm also interested in "same machine, same
overall program, but different duties" if that makes any sense.

-jj

On 9/17/07, Guido van Rossum <guido at python.org> wrote:
> Possibly, but it *is* quite a change in topic. The discussions that
> lead us here all got started by the desire to use multiple cores on a
> single box, and the solutions suggested (from removing the GIL to
> Erlang-style lightweight processes) are all geared towards that
> scenario, and not towards distributed computing. The latter will
> always scale to much larger jobs, but will also always be much more
> painful to program.
>
> On 9/17/07, Shannon -jj Behrens <jjinux at gmail.com> wrote:
> > I think MapReduce should definitely be covered.  I think a lot more
> > people are going to care about distributed computing than parallel
> > computing.  At least, that's been my experience at my last three
> > companies.
> >
> > -jj
> >
> > On 9/17/07, Guido van Rossum <guido at python.org> wrote:
> > > I was thinking of E as well, but then I realized that E supports
> > > *distributed* computing, which isn't quite the same field as
> > > *parallel* computing. I'm not sure it's useful to increase the field
> > > even more by adding distributed computing -- then you'd have to add
> > > MapReduce and many other paradigms as well.
> > >
> > > On 9/17/07, jim stockford <jim at well.com> wrote:
> > > >
> > > >     maybe add E to the list (below Erlang)?
> > > >
> > > >     could the discussoin also include likely new CPU
> > > > designs, PCB designs, embedded and desktop and
> > > > server systems as well.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On Sep 17, 2007, at 2:48 AM, Shannon -jj Behrens wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Someone hinted at this idea earlier, but it might be fun to have an
> > > > > overview discussion on a bunch of different concurrency techniques.
> > > > > We could have a bunch of speakers, each speaking for 15 minutes on a
> > > > > specific topic.  For instance:
> > > > >
> > > > > * Processes
> > > > > * Threads (kernel and green)
> > > > > * Parallel programming vs. distributed computing
> > > > > * IO bound vs. CPU bound
> > > > > * Asynchronous
> > > > > * Twisted
> > > > > * Stackless
> > > > > * Actors
> > > > > * Erlang
> > > > >
> > > > > We wouldn't actually try to cover how to use each of these.  Rather,
> > > > > the goal would be to explain what it is and what are its advantages
> > > > > and limitations.  That'd be a fun talk to give assuming we can keep it
> > > > > shallow enough to cover everything but deep enough to make sense.
> > > > >
> > > > > Happy Hacking!
> > > > > -jj
> > > > >
> > > > > --
> > > > > http://jjinux.blogspot.com/
> > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > Baypiggies mailing list
> > > > > Baypiggies at python.org
> > > > > To change your subscription options or unsubscribe:
> > > > > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Baypiggies mailing list
> > > > Baypiggies at python.org
> > > > To change your subscription options or unsubscribe:
> > > > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > --Guido van Rossum (home page: http://www.python.org/~guido/)
> > >
> >
> >
> > --
> > http://jjinux.blogspot.com/
> >
>
>
> --
> --Guido van Rossum (home page: http://www.python.org/~guido/)
>


-- 
http://jjinux.blogspot.com/

From guido at python.org  Tue Sep 18 02:42:34 2007
From: guido at python.org (Guido van Rossum)
Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2007 17:42:34 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] concurrency talk
In-Reply-To: <c41f67b90709171740g29451c2m6fc8302fbb061775@mail.gmail.com>
References: <c41f67b90709170248v10725afeyd7f137368129bb62@mail.gmail.com>
	<556aa59e3ab38fd848a933c7440a5374@well.com>
	<ca471dc20709171055j1467a73rf7d5b005c3d2e758@mail.gmail.com>
	<c41f67b90709171714r31b8ca35kec3d5033a59206aa@mail.gmail.com>
	<ca471dc20709171727o1c6c795fp4e573e63b222db72@mail.gmail.com>
	<c41f67b90709171740g29451c2m6fc8302fbb061775@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <ca471dc20709171742t501f118fu25ae57b50d6f0d22@mail.gmail.com>

Hm, not everyone uses it that way. There are several modules around
that have "parallel" in their name but don't use it that way. I think
what you're thinking of is called "vectorized" these days.

On 9/17/07, Shannon -jj Behrens <jjinux at gmail.com> wrote:
> Good point.  Of course Erlang makes it easy to do both via the same
> mechanism, but I agree with you completely.  It does make sense to
> focus for a while on what you can do with a single machine.  Note, I'm
> not using the term "parallel" because that implies "same code,
> different data," whereas I'm also interested in "same machine, same
> overall program, but different duties" if that makes any sense.
>
> -jj
>
> On 9/17/07, Guido van Rossum <guido at python.org> wrote:
> > Possibly, but it *is* quite a change in topic. The discussions that
> > lead us here all got started by the desire to use multiple cores on a
> > single box, and the solutions suggested (from removing the GIL to
> > Erlang-style lightweight processes) are all geared towards that
> > scenario, and not towards distributed computing. The latter will
> > always scale to much larger jobs, but will also always be much more
> > painful to program.
> >
> > On 9/17/07, Shannon -jj Behrens <jjinux at gmail.com> wrote:
> > > I think MapReduce should definitely be covered.  I think a lot more
> > > people are going to care about distributed computing than parallel
> > > computing.  At least, that's been my experience at my last three
> > > companies.
> > >
> > > -jj
> > >
> > > On 9/17/07, Guido van Rossum <guido at python.org> wrote:
> > > > I was thinking of E as well, but then I realized that E supports
> > > > *distributed* computing, which isn't quite the same field as
> > > > *parallel* computing. I'm not sure it's useful to increase the field
> > > > even more by adding distributed computing -- then you'd have to add
> > > > MapReduce and many other paradigms as well.
> > > >
> > > > On 9/17/07, jim stockford <jim at well.com> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > >     maybe add E to the list (below Erlang)?
> > > > >
> > > > >     could the discussoin also include likely new CPU
> > > > > designs, PCB designs, embedded and desktop and
> > > > > server systems as well.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > On Sep 17, 2007, at 2:48 AM, Shannon -jj Behrens wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > Someone hinted at this idea earlier, but it might be fun to have an
> > > > > > overview discussion on a bunch of different concurrency techniques.
> > > > > > We could have a bunch of speakers, each speaking for 15 minutes on a
> > > > > > specific topic.  For instance:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > * Processes
> > > > > > * Threads (kernel and green)
> > > > > > * Parallel programming vs. distributed computing
> > > > > > * IO bound vs. CPU bound
> > > > > > * Asynchronous
> > > > > > * Twisted
> > > > > > * Stackless
> > > > > > * Actors
> > > > > > * Erlang
> > > > > >
> > > > > > We wouldn't actually try to cover how to use each of these.  Rather,
> > > > > > the goal would be to explain what it is and what are its advantages
> > > > > > and limitations.  That'd be a fun talk to give assuming we can keep it
> > > > > > shallow enough to cover everything but deep enough to make sense.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Happy Hacking!
> > > > > > -jj
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --
> > > > > > http://jjinux.blogspot.com/
> > > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > > Baypiggies mailing list
> > > > > > Baypiggies at python.org
> > > > > > To change your subscription options or unsubscribe:
> > > > > > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > Baypiggies mailing list
> > > > > Baypiggies at python.org
> > > > > To change your subscription options or unsubscribe:
> > > > > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > --Guido van Rossum (home page: http://www.python.org/~guido/)
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > http://jjinux.blogspot.com/
> > >
> >
> >
> > --
> > --Guido van Rossum (home page: http://www.python.org/~guido/)
> >
>
>
> --
> http://jjinux.blogspot.com/
>


-- 
--Guido van Rossum (home page: http://www.python.org/~guido/)

From krnewton at gmail.com  Tue Sep 18 04:33:06 2007
From: krnewton at gmail.com (Ken Newton)
Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2007 19:33:06 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] concurrency talk
Message-ID: <8fd67d4b0709171933u485f6bc7tde404c3d2e24c092@mail.gmail.com>

I'll add my vote to general interest in
concurrency/parallel/distributed systems...

My current application is an 'embarrasingly parallel' application
consisting of a simulation of ions in an 'ion trap' mass spectrometer.
The program simulates one ion at a time and is repeated for 100 ions
and each group is repeated for 1000's of different input parameters.
This is currently written in C++, submitted to 10's of PCs using the
Condor program and data analyzed and graphics created by a SciPy
Python program.

Nothing concurrent in the sense of messages from one task to another,
but can run either distributed or could utilize a (massive) multi-core
type system.

Ken Newton at Varian Inc

From aahz at pythoncraft.com  Tue Sep 18 06:28:37 2007
From: aahz at pythoncraft.com (Aahz)
Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2007 21:28:37 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] concurrency talk
In-Reply-To: <c41f67b90709170248v10725afeyd7f137368129bb62@mail.gmail.com>
References: <c41f67b90709170248v10725afeyd7f137368129bb62@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20070918042836.GA14330@panix.com>

On Mon, Sep 17, 2007, Shannon -jj Behrens wrote:
>
> Someone hinted at this idea earlier, but it might be fun to have an
> overview discussion on a bunch of different concurrency techniques.
> We could have a bunch of speakers, each speaking for 15 minutes on a
> specific topic.  For instance:
> 
> * Threads (kernel and green)

I'm happy to run through as much of my threads tutorial as I can fit
into fifteen minutes, depending on whether I can make the meeting.
-- 
Aahz (aahz at pythoncraft.com)           <*>         http://www.pythoncraft.com/

The best way to get information on Usenet is not to ask a question, but
to post the wrong information.

From charles.merriam at gmail.com  Tue Sep 18 19:50:15 2007
From: charles.merriam at gmail.com (Charles Merriam)
Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2007 10:50:15 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] ACCU meeting on Wednesday
In-Reply-To: <46E4A627.3070402@gbbservices.com>
References: <46E4A627.3070402@gbbservices.com>
Message-ID: <b8c6f6c40709181050p363adf7cl85ddfed50cb28745@mail.gmail.com>

Given the current thread on multitasking and concurrency, I was
wondering if the slides, audio, or video was available from Alex's
talk.

Thank you in advance,

Charles


On 9/9/07, Walter Vannini <walterv at gbbservices.com> wrote:
> Feel free to forward this notice to anyone who is interested.
>
> When:      Wednesday, September 12, 2007
> Topic:     Some Python Patterns for Multitasking
>              and Event-Driven Processing
> Speaker:   Alex Martelli
> Time:      7:00pm
> Where:     VMware
>                 3210 Porter Drive
>                 Palo Alto, CA 94304
>                (Please don't go to the other VMware building
>                 on the same street.)
> Map:       <http://tinyurl.com/3965zb>
> Cost:      Free
> More Info: <http://www.accu-usa.org>
> Speaker:   Alex Martelli
>
> Doing multiple things at once -- or, at least, giving the appearance of
> so doing -- is an obvious and inescapable necessity in almost all
> programming areas today. This talk shows some architecture, design and
> coding patterns (focused on the Python programming language) supporting
> such needs, from event-driven processing, to threading (preemptive and
> non), to some highly scalable approaches based on multiple processes
> possibly running on multiple processors.
>
> The talk's audience should have at least some modest previous exposure
> to Python, but will not necessarily need previous knowledge of either
> event-driven processing or multitasking.
>
> Alex Martelli is Uber Technical Lead at Google, Inc. Alex holds a laurea
> in Ingegneria Elettronica from Bologna University. He wrote Python in a
> Nutshell, and also co-edited the Python Cookbook. He's a member of the
> Python Software Foundation, and won the 2002 Activators' Choice Award
> and the 2006 Frank Willison Memorial Award.
>
> Alex spent 8 years with IBM Research (earning three Outstanding
> Technical Achievement Awards), 12 years as senior consultant (Win32,
> Fortran, C, C++, Java, etc) at Think3 inc, and 3 years as a Python
> freelance consultant (mostly for AB Strakt). He has taught Programming,
> Numerical Computing, and Object Oriented Design at Ferrara University
> and other venues.
>
> The ACCU meets monthly. To suggest topics and speakers please email
> Walter Vannini via walterv at gbbservices.com
>
> Walter Vannini
> <http://www.accu-usa.org/>
> <http://www.gbbservices.com/>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Baypiggies mailing list
> Baypiggies at python.org
> To change your subscription options or unsubscribe:
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies
>

From cappy2112 at gmail.com  Tue Sep 18 20:06:41 2007
From: cappy2112 at gmail.com (Tony Cappellini)
Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2007 11:06:41 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] concurrency talk
In-Reply-To: <20070918042836.GA14330@panix.com>
References: <c41f67b90709170248v10725afeyd7f137368129bb62@mail.gmail.com>
	<20070918042836.GA14330@panix.com>
Message-ID: <8249c4ac0709181106v3ad2e37u42bc38b1cf59d9e1@mail.gmail.com>

I wouldn't mind seeing your presentation on threads again.

However, since the group has grown quite a lot since Stanford days,
it's possible much Q&A will result. I'd vote for not cramming it into
15 minutes, but dedicating a separate night for it.

On 9/17/07, Aahz <aahz at pythoncraft.com> wrote:
> On Mon, Sep 17, 2007, Shannon -jj Behrens wrote:
> >
> > Someone hinted at this idea earlier, but it might be fun to have an
> > overview discussion on a bunch of different concurrency techniques.
> > We could have a bunch of speakers, each speaking for 15 minutes on a
> > specific topic.  For instance:
> >
> > * Threads (kernel and green)
>
> I'm happy to run through as much of my threads tutorial as I can fit
> into fifteen minutes, depending on whether I can make the meeting.
> --
> Aahz (aahz at pythoncraft.com)           <*>         http://www.pythoncraft.com/
>
> The best way to get information on Usenet is not to ask a question, but
> to post the wrong information.
> _______________________________________________
> Baypiggies mailing list
> Baypiggies at python.org
> To change your subscription options or unsubscribe:
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies
>

From aahz at pythoncraft.com  Tue Sep 18 20:10:19 2007
From: aahz at pythoncraft.com (Aahz)
Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2007 11:10:19 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] concurrency talk
In-Reply-To: <8249c4ac0709181106v3ad2e37u42bc38b1cf59d9e1@mail.gmail.com>
References: <c41f67b90709170248v10725afeyd7f137368129bb62@mail.gmail.com>
	<20070918042836.GA14330@panix.com>
	<8249c4ac0709181106v3ad2e37u42bc38b1cf59d9e1@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20070918181018.GA18773@panix.com>

On Tue, Sep 18, 2007, Tony Cappellini wrote:
>
> I wouldn't mind seeing your presentation on threads again.
> 
> However, since the group has grown quite a lot since Stanford days,
> it's possible much Q&A will result. I'd vote for not cramming it into
> 15 minutes, but dedicating a separate night for it.

<shrug>  I delivered it at PyCon in 45 minutes, including Q&A.  Given how
long it has been since the last time I delivered it (or done much thread
programming, for that matter), I wouldn't want to take many questions,
anyway -- I'd have to rely on my material just still being good.  ;-)
-- 
Aahz (aahz at pythoncraft.com)           <*>         http://www.pythoncraft.com/

The best way to get information on Usenet is not to ask a question, but
to post the wrong information.

From aleax at google.com  Tue Sep 18 20:15:28 2007
From: aleax at google.com (Alex Martelli)
Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2007 11:15:28 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] ACCU meeting on Wednesday
In-Reply-To: <b8c6f6c40709181050p363adf7cl85ddfed50cb28745@mail.gmail.com>
References: <46E4A627.3070402@gbbservices.com>
	<b8c6f6c40709181050p363adf7cl85ddfed50cb28745@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <55dc209b0709181115o2dbe9559l8518e6b81d353cc7@mail.gmail.com>

On 9/18/07, Charles Merriam <charles.merriam at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Given the current thread on multitasking and concurrency, I was
> wondering if the slides, audio, or video was available from Alex's
> talk.


The slides from my ACCU talk are at http://www.aleax.it/accu_pyconc.pdf -- I
don't know if audio and/or video were recorded and have been or will be made
available, though.


Alex
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From mikeyp at snaplogic.org  Wed Sep 19 00:28:12 2007
From: mikeyp at snaplogic.org (Michael Pittaro)
Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2007 15:28:12 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] concurrency talk
In-Reply-To: <c41f67b90709170248v10725afeyd7f137368129bb62@mail.gmail.com>
References: <c41f67b90709170248v10725afeyd7f137368129bb62@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <46F050FC.2000306@snaplogic.org>

Shannon -jj Behrens wrote:
> Someone hinted at this idea earlier, but it might be fun to have an
> overview discussion on a bunch of different concurrency techniques.
> We could have a bunch of speakers, each speaking for 15 minutes on a
> specific topic.  For instance:
>
> * Processes
> * Threads (kernel and green)
> * Parallel programming vs. distributed computing
> * IO bound vs. CPU bound
> * Asynchronous
> * Twisted
> * Stackless
> * Actors
> * Erlang
>
> We wouldn't actually try to cover how to use each of these.  Rather,
> the goal would be to explain what it is and what are its advantages
> and limitations.  That'd be a fun talk to give assuming we can keep it
> shallow enough to cover everything but deep enough to make sense.
>
> Happy Hacking!
> -jj
>
>   
There's definitely more than one hour worth of material here....probably
several separate talks.  We could probably schedule 1 meeting per
quarter on parallelism and concurrency for the next year.  (Frankly,
theres probably enough material to justify a book on Python concurrency,
or at least a Pycon tutorial.) 
 
Alex Martelli's ACCU talk last week did a good job of looking at Python
concurrency in the general sense, from event driven and callback models
through to parallel execution.

Once you get into true parallel execution, the two main schools of
thought center around the memory model for programming  - whether it's a
shared memory model (usually SMP)  based on threads, or a distributed
memory model based on message passing.    Each of these models alone
would probably justify a single talk.  

mike

-- 
mikeyp at snaplogic.org            http://www.snaplogic.org


From annaraven at gmail.com  Wed Sep 19 02:23:07 2007
From: annaraven at gmail.com (Anna Ravenscroft)
Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2007 17:23:07 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] concurrency talk
In-Reply-To: <46F050FC.2000306@snaplogic.org>
References: <c41f67b90709170248v10725afeyd7f137368129bb62@mail.gmail.com>
	<46F050FC.2000306@snaplogic.org>
Message-ID: <cb361a610709181723l61574d0di858afcb76bd69835@mail.gmail.com>

On 9/18/07, Michael Pittaro <mikeyp at snaplogic.org> wrote:
> There's definitely more than one hour worth of material here....probably
> several separate talks.  We could probably schedule 1 meeting per
> quarter on parallelism and concurrency for the next year.  (Frankly,
> theres probably enough material to justify a book on Python concurrency,
> or at least a Pycon tutorial.)
>
> Alex Martelli's ACCU talk last week did a good job of looking at Python
> concurrency in the general sense, from event driven and callback models
> through to parallel execution.
>
> Once you get into true parallel execution, the two main schools of
> thought center around the memory model for programming  - whether it's a
> shared memory model (usually SMP)  based on threads, or a distributed
> memory model based on message passing.    Each of these models alone
> would probably justify a single talk.
>

I think a series makes a lot of sense. And yes, one meeting a quarter
(or two to get started?) would be a good rhythm. Give people time to
prepare talks and such. And people can work with someone else to
prepare talks, to have a couple people if someone doesn't feel they
can do a whole hour's worth themselves.

-- 
cordially,
Anna
--
Walking through the water. Trying to get across.
Just like everybody else.

From stephen at stephencox.org  Wed Sep 19 12:45:42 2007
From: stephen at stephencox.org (Stephen Cox)
Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2007 03:45:42 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] questions from a noob
Message-ID: <31F347EC-A580-4788-B93E-2626976448FA@stephencox.org>

Hi, I'm new to Python. Coming from (believe it or not) a mainframe  
(Cobol, Ada) background with a fair amount of xbase (dBase, Fox,  
Clipper) under my belt. Been making a nice living maintaining xbase  
legacy code. ;) But was finally conned into taking up a "modern"  
lang. I choose Python for a variety of reasons.

Anyway enough of me, some questions. Found this list via python.org.  
And after reading some of the threads was wondering if this was the  
right list for newbs? If not, can you point me to a list or forum  
that is?

Thanks... in advance.

-regards
   Stephen Cox
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From aahz at pythoncraft.com  Wed Sep 19 17:15:49 2007
From: aahz at pythoncraft.com (Aahz)
Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2007 08:15:49 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] questions from a noob
In-Reply-To: <31F347EC-A580-4788-B93E-2626976448FA@stephencox.org>
References: <31F347EC-A580-4788-B93E-2626976448FA@stephencox.org>
Message-ID: <20070919151549.GB7802@panix.com>

On Wed, Sep 19, 2007, Stephen Cox wrote:
>
> Anyway enough of me, some questions. Found this list via python.org.  
> And after reading some of the threads was wondering if this was the  
> right list for newbs? If not, can you point me to a list or forum  
> that is?

There is no "the" right list.  The baypiggies list can certainly handle
some questions (particularly if you also want to make geographically
local connections), but if you want to have in-depth discussions, you
probably will be better off with one (or more) of the following:

help at python.org
tutor at python.org
comp.lang.python (also available as python-list at python.org)
-- 
Aahz (aahz at pythoncraft.com)           <*>         http://www.pythoncraft.com/

The best way to get information on Usenet is not to ask a question, but
to post the wrong information.

From annaraven at gmail.com  Wed Sep 19 19:33:11 2007
From: annaraven at gmail.com (Anna Ravenscroft)
Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2007 10:33:11 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] questions from a noob
In-Reply-To: <20070919151549.GB7802@panix.com>
References: <31F347EC-A580-4788-B93E-2626976448FA@stephencox.org>
	<20070919151549.GB7802@panix.com>
Message-ID: <cb361a610709191033m58b576f9ted99b757739933c@mail.gmail.com>

Welcome to Python! Great choice. ;-)

On 9/19/07, Aahz <aahz at pythoncraft.com> wrote:
> On Wed, Sep 19, 2007, Stephen Cox wrote:
> >
> > Anyway enough of me, some questions. Found this list via python.org.
> > And after reading some of the threads was wondering if this was the
> > right list for newbs? If not, can you point me to a list or forum
> > that is?
>
> There is no "the" right list.  The baypiggies list can certainly handle
> some questions (particularly if you also want to make geographically
> local connections), but if you want to have in-depth discussions, you
> probably will be better off with one (or more) of the following:
>
> help at python.org

help is good for asking specific questions with a group of specific
experts who provide answers.

> tutor at python.org
tutor is great to follow and get advice and ask questions but is more
open to everyone answering than just  official responders. It's a good
list to read just to get more info.

> comp.lang.python (also available as python-list at python.org)
> --
c.l.py is a great, and very welcoming, community. BayPiggies is a good
place to come and meet people face to face if you're in the area. And
you're, of course, welcome to stick around here on the BayPiGgies
list.

-- 
cordially,
Anna
--
Walking through the water. Trying to get across.
Just like everybody else.

From jim at well.com  Thu Sep 20 00:54:57 2007
From: jim at well.com (jim stockford)
Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2007 15:54:57 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] questions from a noob
In-Reply-To: <cb361a610709191033m58b576f9ted99b757739933c@mail.gmail.com>
References: <31F347EC-A580-4788-B93E-2626976448FA@stephencox.org>
	<20070919151549.GB7802@panix.com>
	<cb361a610709191033m58b576f9ted99b757739933c@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <b3625147e1f7ba2333aae5e6f60c5c59@well.com>


what are your reasons for choosing python?

both the tutor list and the python-list

Tutor at python.org
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/tutor
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

are voluminous: tutor sends from 20 to 40 messages
  each day on varying topics, python-list sends even
more. they may be overwhelming.
    I'd say choose bayPIGgies and tutor for now: read
the parts of the tutor stream that match your interests
and put occasional specific questions to bayPIGgies.
    instead of subscribing to the python-list for now, dip
into comp.lang.python to pick up on topic threads that
concern you.
    come to bayPIGgies meetings on the second
Thursday of each month at the Google campus if
you live in the SF bay area.


On Sep 19, 2007, at 10:33 AM, Anna Ravenscroft wrote:

> Welcome to Python! Great choice. ;-)
>
> On 9/19/07, Aahz <aahz at pythoncraft.com> wrote:
>> On Wed, Sep 19, 2007, Stephen Cox wrote:
>>>
>>> Anyway enough of me, some questions. Found this list via python.org.
>>> And after reading some of the threads was wondering if this was the
>>> right list for newbs? If not, can you point me to a list or forum
>>> that is?
>>
>> There is no "the" right list.  The baypiggies list can certainly 
>> handle
>> some questions (particularly if you also want to make geographically
>> local connections), but if you want to have in-depth discussions, you
>> probably will be better off with one (or more) of the following:
>>
>> help at python.org
>
> help is good for asking specific questions with a group of specific
> experts who provide answers.
>
>> tutor at python.org
> tutor is great to follow and get advice and ask questions but is more
> open to everyone answering than just  official responders. It's a good
> list to read just to get more info.
>
>> comp.lang.python (also available as python-list at python.org)
>> --
> c.l.py is a great, and very welcoming, community. BayPiggies is a good
> place to come and meet people face to face if you're in the area. And
> you're, of course, welcome to stick around here on the BayPiGgies
> list.
>
> -- 
> cordially,
> Anna
> --
> Walking through the water. Trying to get across.
> Just like everybody else.
> _______________________________________________
> Baypiggies mailing list
> Baypiggies at python.org
> To change your subscription options or unsubscribe:
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies
>


From stephen at stephencox.org  Thu Sep 20 02:46:40 2007
From: stephen at stephencox.org (Stephen Cox)
Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2007 17:46:40 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] questions from a noob
In-Reply-To: <b3625147e1f7ba2333aae5e6f60c5c59@well.com>
References: <31F347EC-A580-4788-B93E-2626976448FA@stephencox.org>
	<20070919151549.GB7802@panix.com>
	<cb361a610709191033m58b576f9ted99b757739933c@mail.gmail.com>
	<b3625147e1f7ba2333aae5e6f60c5c59@well.com>
Message-ID: <628D82CA-7195-4774-AA9B-1229675D43A2@stephencox.org>

>
> what are your reasons for choosing python?

Speed. Maturity, Acceptance in the sciences. Cross platform. And  
Free. And by free, I mean not controlled by any single corporation.  
Ruby was my first choice. But besides various technical issues, , I  
attended a ruby "meetup". Out of a room of 60 or so  people I was the  
only one not writing rails.

I have a project(s) of love I've been working on, what I like to  
call: sustainable-agriculture modeling. And after complaining about  
ruby to  friend of mine, he pointed me back to python.  So here I am.  
Oh and one more thing, Civ 4 is python.  I have a few mods in mind. :)
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From aahz at pythoncraft.com  Thu Sep 20 15:39:51 2007
From: aahz at pythoncraft.com (Aahz)
Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2007 06:39:51 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] questions from a noob
In-Reply-To: <b3625147e1f7ba2333aae5e6f60c5c59@well.com>
References: <31F347EC-A580-4788-B93E-2626976448FA@stephencox.org>
	<20070919151549.GB7802@panix.com>
	<cb361a610709191033m58b576f9ted99b757739933c@mail.gmail.com>
	<b3625147e1f7ba2333aae5e6f60c5c59@well.com>
Message-ID: <20070920133951.GA10840@panix.com>

On Wed, Sep 19, 2007, jim stockford wrote:
>
> instead of subscribing to the python-list for now, dip into
> comp.lang.python to pick up on topic threads that concern you.

python-list and comp.lang.python are the same thing; python-list is an
e-mail list whereas comp.lang.python is a netnews group.  Not
surprisingly, I strongly recommend using comp.lang.python because
newsreaders are much better for dealing with large volumes than e-mail
clients.
-- 
Aahz (aahz at pythoncraft.com)           <*>         http://www.pythoncraft.com/

The best way to get information on Usenet is not to ask a question, but
to post the wrong information.

From annaraven at gmail.com  Thu Sep 20 16:35:04 2007
From: annaraven at gmail.com (Anna Ravenscroft)
Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2007 07:35:04 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] She's geeky (un)conference
Message-ID: <cb361a610709200735ga37fba4lfdd121d1bcb20593@mail.gmail.com>

<a href="http://annaraven.blogspot.com/2007/09/shes-geeky.html#links">She's
Geeky</a>: " A Women's Tech (un)conference" I've blogged about it and
hope you can make it/pass the word to other women geeks.

-- 
cordially,
Anna
--
Walking through the water. Trying to get across.
Just like everybody else.

From ohgarden at cox.net  Thu Sep 20 15:14:34 2007
From: ohgarden at cox.net (Tom Michel)
Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2007 06:14:34 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] Visit
Message-ID: <46F2723A.1040602@cox.net>

There is no Python user group in my area (southern Arizona) but the 
information and links from Baypigges members have been very helpful in 
the 18 months that I have been programming in Python.  I'm in Sunnyvale 
occasionally to visit family and would like to meet some of the members 
in person during my next visit in early October.

Thank you.

Tom Michel

From spmcinerney at hotmail.com  Thu Sep 20 19:08:17 2007
From: spmcinerney at hotmail.com (Stephen McInerney)
Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2007 10:08:17 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] questions from a noob/ python-tutor volume
In-Reply-To: <b3625147e1f7ba2333aae5e6f60c5c59@well.com>
References: <31F347EC-A580-4788-B93E-2626976448FA@stephencox.org>
	<20070919151549.GB7802@panix.com>
	<cb361a610709191033m58b576f9ted99b757739933c@mail.gmail.com> 
	<b3625147e1f7ba2333aae5e6f60c5c59@well.com>
Message-ID: <BAY111-W13667F581CE076FE1FB748A0BA0@phx.gbl>


Yes, python-tutor is an excellent list for newbies, but volume is so high and discussions so fragmented that the best thing is to subscribe to it with a separate email (_list at isp..) and a threaded mailreader (e.g. Thunderbird).

Unless anyone has a better suggestion?
Stephen



> From: jim at well.com
> Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2007 15:54:57 -0700
> To: annaraven at gmail.com
> CC: Baypiggies at python.org
> Subject: Re: [Baypiggies] questions from a noob
>
>
> what are your reasons for choosing python?
>
> both the tutor list and the python-list
>
> Tutor at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/tutor
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
>
> are voluminous: tutor sends from 20 to 40 messages
> each day on varying topics, python-list sends even
> more. they may be overwhelming.
> I'd say choose bayPIGgies and tutor for now: read
> the parts of the tutor stream that match your interests
> and put occasional specific questions to bayPIGgies.
_________________________________________________________________
Capture your memories in an online journal!
http://www.reallivemoms.com?ocid=TXT_TAGHM&loc=us

From cappy2112 at gmail.com  Thu Sep 20 20:24:29 2007
From: cappy2112 at gmail.com (Tony Cappellini)
Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2007 11:24:29 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] questions from a noob/ python-tutor volume
In-Reply-To: <BAY111-W13667F581CE076FE1FB748A0BA0@phx.gbl>
References: <31F347EC-A580-4788-B93E-2626976448FA@stephencox.org>
	<20070919151549.GB7802@panix.com>
	<cb361a610709191033m58b576f9ted99b757739933c@mail.gmail.com>
	<b3625147e1f7ba2333aae5e6f60c5c59@well.com>
	<BAY111-W13667F581CE076FE1FB748A0BA0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <8249c4ac0709201124h49ffdf1p183f4c5bcfd224d@mail.gmail.com>

Most high volume mail lists have digests you can subscribe to.
This way you get all the mail for a given time frame in one packet.
Sometimes you'll get several packets a day, which may contain 20-30
individual mails.

Each packet shows up as one huge email containing all the individual
messages, and can be read with just about any email client, or a web
browser.

It's quite convenient, and the Tutor list has this option as well.

On 9/20/07, Stephen McInerney <spmcinerney at hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> Yes, python-tutor is an excellent list for newbies, but volume is so high and discussions so fragmented that the best thing is to subscribe to it with a separate email (_list at isp..) and a threaded mailreader (e.g. Thunderbird).
>
> Unless anyone has a better suggestion?
> Stephen
>

From spmcinerney at hotmail.com  Thu Sep 20 20:44:59 2007
From: spmcinerney at hotmail.com (Stephen McInerney)
Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2007 11:44:59 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] questions from a noob/ python-tutor volume
In-Reply-To: <8249c4ac0709201124h49ffdf1p183f4c5bcfd224d@mail.gmail.com>
References: <31F347EC-A580-4788-B93E-2626976448FA@stephencox.org>
	<20070919151549.GB7802@panix.com>
	<cb361a610709191033m58b576f9ted99b757739933c@mail.gmail.com>
	<b3625147e1f7ba2333aae5e6f60c5c59@well.com>
	<BAY111-W13667F581CE076FE1FB748A0BA0@phx.gbl> 
	<8249c4ac0709201124h49ffdf1p183f4c5bcfd224d@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <BAY111-W167EA3DA47C0D36E226E34A0BA0@phx.gbl>


 
Tony,
 
digest doesn't work because you don't get the thread structure, which is crucial to following the train of thought.
 
python-tutor discussions have a way of spiraling off on tangents (as I personally found out recently).
 
So IMO nothing beats subscribing with a separate list-address and using Thunderbird.
 
Regards,
Stephen
_________________________________________________________________
More photos; more messages; more whatever ? Get MORE with Windows Live? Hotmail?. NOW with 5GB storage.
http://imagine-windowslive.com/hotmail/?locale=en-us&ocid=TXT_TAGHM_migration_HM_mini_5G_0907
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From spmcinerney at hotmail.com  Thu Sep 20 21:17:33 2007
From: spmcinerney at hotmail.com (Stephen McInerney)
Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2007 12:17:33 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] FW: [ACM SIGGRAPH] "25 Years of Tools and Techniques"
 tonight 8pm, Apple Cupertino
In-Reply-To: <46F2A09C.2030609@gbbservices.com>
References: <46F2A09C.2030609@gbbservices.com>
Message-ID: <BAY111-W603FCF75E708968222E1AA0BA0@phx.gbl>


(Sounds like a good overview talk - Stephen)
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+* "25 Years of Tools and Techniques" - Thursday September 20 in Cupertino+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+> > The September Meeting of the Silicon Valley Chapter ACM SIGGRAPH> (Special Interest Group in Graphics)> > DATE: Thursday September 20, 2007> TIME: 7:30pm, Refreshments and appetizers, Networking, Socializing> 8:00pm, Presentation - "25 Years of Tools and Techniques"> LOCATION: Town Hall Auditorium, #4 Infinite Loop> Apple Computer, Cupertino> > Feel free to forward this notice to anyone who is interested.> > ABSTRACT> > Hank Grebe has been working in animation and interactive computer> graphics since the mid-1970?s. In this talk and presentation, Hank will> review his career, and share observations and anecdotes about the growth> of technology in computer graphics, and show video clips of his work at> NYIT Computer Graphics Lab and at PDI/Dreamworks.> > Tools and Techniques Topics Covered:> > From Early Paint systems to Photoshop, importance of pen tablets> > 2D ?Morphing? origins> > Vector graphics, and how tweening led to Flash> > 3D software tool evolution> > Exposure sheets and Keyframes ? traditional animation origins and metaphors> > Compositing ? Alpha channels, scripts behind the interface> > Subjects to be covered:> > 1) Traditional animation. Working with Stephen Lisberger leading up to> his writing and directing TRON.> > 2) NYIT Computer Graphics Lab. Stories behind the development of the> first 2D paint systems, 2D tweening, 3D keyframing, and early flexibly> jointed characters, such as Gumby.> > 3) Early work with interactive multimedia interfaces, CD-ROMs and> interactive TV at Time Warner Interactive.> > 4) Shrek 2 work at PDI/DreamWorks> > 5) Freelancing, contracting and entrepreneurial ventures.> > PRESENTER'S BIOGRAPHY> > Hank Grebe has been using computer graphics techniques to create art and> animation for over 25 years and attended his first SIGGRAPH in 1983. He> currently works at Mobile Greetings in Walnut Creek, designing> interactive cell phone applications running on Verizon?s wireless services.> > Hank led a team of digital painters and motion graphics artists on> PDI/DreamWorks Animation's feature, SHREK 2. He has provided computer> graphics and video technical direction at Time Warner, AT&T, Elektra> Records, Merrill Lynch, Intel, and numerous agency clients, video> production and post production facilities.> > In 1995 Grebe founded Media Spin, a computer graphics consulting> business, which he dissolved in 2003. Hank continues to update the web> site, mediaspin.com, with blogging and new art projects.> > Grounded in traditional painting and cel animation, Hank pioneered> computer animation at NYIT?s Computer Graphics Lab by rigging and> animating one of the first flexibly jointed 3D characters, a 3D Gumby> shown at SIGGRAPH's Electronic Theater in 1984 and 85.> > DIRECTIONS:> > Coming from San Jose:> Take 280 North to De Anza Blvd.> Turn left, heading south.> Take the first left at Mariani.> Veer left at the cul-de-sac, following the driveway to Building #4.> > Coming from San Francisco:> Take 280 South to De Anza Blvd.> Turn right, heading south.> Take the first left at Mariani.> Veer left at the cul-de-sac, following the driveway to Building #4.> > +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+> > MEMBERSHIP INFO:> > We are now accepting memberships for 2007. SV SIGGRAPH hold meetings> the third Thursday of the month (sometimes this is adjusted to meet> speaker and auditorium availability). Meetings are usually not held> in December or in the summer.> > $5 donation per meeting for non-members.> Free for Silicon Valley ACM SIGGRAPH members.> Free for San Francisco ACM SIGGRAPH members.> Free for full-time students (with valid ID).> > Membership applications are available at our meetings.> Membership dues for the Silicon Valley ACM SIGGRAPH Chapter are $20> per year.> > MAILING LIST NEWS:> > Some mail systems may have junk mail filters which could prevent you> from receiving the announcements that are sent for chapter events.> Please make sure to setup your mail system (Hotmail, AOL, Yahoo, etc.)> to allow these messages to be received. The mail will be sent to the> address silicon-valley-announcements at siggraph.org and will contain> [silicon-valley-siggraph] as the first part of the subject line. The> traffic for our announcements list is approximately one message per> month.> > CONTACT INFORMATION:> > Silicon Valley SIGGRAPH is a volunteer organization. We always need> volunteers to assist with organization and meeting related> responsibilities.> > If you are interested in helping out please send e-mail to> silicon-valley-chapter at siggraph.org. Or speak with one of the chapter> officers (listed below) during one of our events.> > Chapter Officers:> Alesh Jancarik - Chair> Ken Turkowski - Vice Chair> Mark Adan - Treasurer> John Montbriand - Venue Chair> Sharon Yang - Web Master> Daniel Lingafelter/Martha Renard - Membership Chair> Walter Vannini - Secretary> > E-mail: silicon-valley-chapter at siggraph.org> Web: http://silicon-valley.siggraph.org/> > > _______________________________________________> silicon-valley-announcements mailing list> silicon-valley-announcements at siggraph.org> http://www.siggraph.org/mailman/listinfo/silicon-valley-announcements
_________________________________________________________________
More photos; more messages; more whatever ? Get MORE with Windows Live? Hotmail?. NOW with 5GB storage.
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From nad at acm.org  Thu Sep 20 21:08:52 2007
From: nad at acm.org (Ned Deily)
Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2007 12:08:52 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] questions from a noob/ python-tutor volume
References: <31F347EC-A580-4788-B93E-2626976448FA@stephencox.org>
	<20070919151549.GB7802@panix.com>
	<cb361a610709191033m58b576f9ted99b757739933c@mail.gmail.com>
	<b3625147e1f7ba2333aae5e6f60c5c59@well.com>
	<BAY111-W13667F581CE076FE1FB748A0BA0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <nad-D43BE9.12085220092007@sea.gmane.org>

In article <BAY111-W13667F581CE076FE1FB748A0BA0 at phx.gbl>,
 Stephen McInerney 
 <spmcinerney at hotmail.com> wrote:
> Yes, python-tutor is an excellent list for newbies, but volume is so high and 
> discussions so fragmented that the best thing is to subscribe to it with a 
> separate email (_list at isp..) and a threaded mailreader (e.g. Thunderbird).
> 
> Unless anyone has a better suggestion?

Like many technical email lists, python-tutor is mirrored at gmane.org.  
See <http://dir.gmane.org/gmane.comp.python.tutor>.

Gmane allows you to browse, search, and/or post to threads in these 
lists in a number of different ways:  via one of serveral web formats, 
RSS feeds, or, possibly best of all, a standard Usenet-style newsreader 
(e.g. gmane.comp.python.tutor).  No more email overload!

More python-related lists mirrored here:
<http://dir.gmane.org/index.php?prefix=gmane.comp.python>

-- 
 Ned Deily,
 nad at acm.org


From aahz at pythoncraft.com  Thu Sep 20 21:48:43 2007
From: aahz at pythoncraft.com (Aahz)
Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2007 12:48:43 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] Visit
In-Reply-To: <46F2723A.1040602@cox.net>
References: <46F2723A.1040602@cox.net>
Message-ID: <20070920194843.GA16794@panix.com>

On Thu, Sep 20, 2007, Tom Michel wrote:
>
> There is no Python user group in my area (southern Arizona) but the 
> information and links from Baypigges members have been very helpful in 
> the 18 months that I have been programming in Python.  I'm in Sunnyvale 
> occasionally to visit family and would like to meet some of the members 
> in person during my next visit in early October.

Are you going to be here for the meeting or do you want to have a dinner
with some BayPIGgies some other time?  What's your transporation
situation?

If you want some help getting a usergroup started, just ask!
-- 
Aahz (aahz at pythoncraft.com)           <*>         http://www.pythoncraft.com/

The best way to get information on Usenet is not to ask a question, but
to post the wrong information.

From keith at dartworks.biz  Thu Sep 20 22:11:01 2007
From: keith at dartworks.biz (Keith Dart =?UTF-8?B?4pmC?=)
Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2007 20:11:01 +0000
Subject: [Baypiggies] questions from a noob
In-Reply-To: <628D82CA-7195-4774-AA9B-1229675D43A2@stephencox.org>
References: <31F347EC-A580-4788-B93E-2626976448FA@stephencox.org>
	<20070919151549.GB7802@panix.com>
	<cb361a610709191033m58b576f9ted99b757739933c@mail.gmail.com>
	<b3625147e1f7ba2333aae5e6f60c5c59@well.com>
	<628D82CA-7195-4774-AA9B-1229675D43A2@stephencox.org>
Message-ID: <20070920201101.0974ced8@psyche.corp.google.com>

Stephen Cox wrote the following on 2007-09-19 at 17:46 PDT:
===
> I have a project(s) of love I've been working on, what I like to  
> call: sustainable-agriculture modeling. And after complaining about  
> ruby to  friend of mine, he pointed me back to python.  So here I am.  
> Oh and one more thing, Civ 4 is python.  I have a few mods in mind. :)

===

You might want to check out:

http://www.scipy.org/

and:

http://sourcesup.cru.fr/projects/scientific-py/


-- 
-- ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
   Keith Dart <keith at dartworks.biz>
   public key: ID: 19017044
   <http://www.dartworks.biz/>
   =====================================================================


From carroll at tjc.com  Thu Sep 20 22:55:46 2007
From: carroll at tjc.com (Terry Carroll)
Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2007 13:55:46 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Baypiggies] questions from a noob/ python-tutor volume
In-Reply-To: <BAY111-W13667F581CE076FE1FB748A0BA0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0709201355070.18372-100000@violet.rahul.net>

On Thu, 20 Sep 2007, Stephen McInerney wrote:

> Yes, python-tutor is an excellent list for newbies, but volume is so
> high and discussions so fragmented that the best thing is to subscribe
> to it with a separate email (_list at isp..) and a threaded mailreader
> (e.g. Thunderbird).
> 
> Unless anyone has a better suggestion?

I procmail the three or four python mailing lists I subscribe to off to 
their own mailbox.


From carroll at tjc.com  Thu Sep 20 22:57:41 2007
From: carroll at tjc.com (Terry Carroll)
Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2007 13:57:41 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Baypiggies] questions from a noob/ python-tutor volume
In-Reply-To: <nad-D43BE9.12085220092007@sea.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0709201356560.18372-100000@violet.rahul.net>

On Thu, 20 Sep 2007, Ned Deily wrote:

> More python-related lists mirrored here:
> <http://dir.gmane.org/index.php?prefix=gmane.comp.python>

Thanks for this, Ned.  I want to slip in and out of the wxPython mailing 
list, and this looks like a good way of doing it.


From jim at well.com  Fri Sep 21 03:40:10 2007
From: jim at well.com (jim stockford)
Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2007 18:40:10 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] Visit
In-Reply-To: <46F2723A.1040602@cox.net>
References: <46F2723A.1040602@cox.net>
Message-ID: <310165fae3e795304c9f37640fd1fde0@well.com>


    in october, the bayPIGgies meet at the google
campus on Thursday, 10/11, from 7:30 to 9:00 PM.


On Sep 20, 2007, at 6:14 AM, Tom Michel wrote:

> There is no Python user group in my area (southern Arizona) but the
> information and links from Baypigges members have been very helpful in
> the 18 months that I have been programming in Python.  I'm in Sunnyvale
> occasionally to visit family and would like to meet some of the members
> in person during my next visit in early October.
>
> Thank you.
>
> Tom Michel
> _______________________________________________
> Baypiggies mailing list
> Baypiggies at python.org
> To change your subscription options or unsubscribe:
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies
>


From jjinux at gmail.com  Sat Sep 22 01:51:46 2007
From: jjinux at gmail.com (Shannon -jj Behrens)
Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2007 16:51:46 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] questions from a noob
In-Reply-To: <31F347EC-A580-4788-B93E-2626976448FA@stephencox.org>
References: <31F347EC-A580-4788-B93E-2626976448FA@stephencox.org>
Message-ID: <c41f67b90709211651h3c5cf175j3010ccf730fd6667@mail.gmail.com>

On 9/19/07, Stephen Cox <stephen at stephencox.org> wrote:
> Hi, I'm new to Python. Coming from (believe it or not) a mainframe (Cobol,
> Ada) background with a fair amount of xbase (dBase, Fox, Clipper) under my
> belt. Been making a nice living maintaining xbase legacy code. ;) But was
> finally conned into taking up a "modern" lang. I choose Python for a variety
> of reasons.
>
> Anyway enough of me, some questions. Found this list via python.org. And
> after reading some of the threads was wondering if this was the right list
> for newbs? If not, can you point me to a list or forum that is?
>
> Thanks... in advance.

My buddy Adam is also a Cobol programmer working on ERP systems, and I
brought him over to the light ;)

-jj

-- 
http://jjinux.blogspot.com/

From lavendula6654 at yahoo.com  Mon Sep 24 03:31:31 2007
From: lavendula6654 at yahoo.com (Elaine)
Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2007 18:31:31 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Baypiggies] Python course at Foothill College
Message-ID: <483045.67325.qm@web31713.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

If you would like to learn Python, Foothill College in
Los Altos Hills California is offering a course
starting this Wednesday evening, 26 Sept. The course
is designed for students who are already familiar with
some type of programming. Here is the course
description:

CIS 68K  "INTRODUCTION TO PYTHON PROGRAMMING"  5 Units
This course will introduce students to the Python
language and environment. Four hours lecture, four
hours terminal time. Advisory: CIS 15A or 27A, and CIS
68A.
2182 CIS -068K-01 LEC6:00PM- 9:50 Wednesdays - HAIGHT 
 Middlefield Campus, Room I5. Course fee, $4.

If you would like to sign up for the class, it would
be very helpful if you would register beforehand by
going to:
http://www.foothill.fhda.edu/reg/index.php

If you have questions, you can contact the instructor
at:
haightElaine at foothill.edu



       
____________________________________________________________________________________
Be a better Heartthrob. Get better relationship answers from someone who knows. Yahoo! Answers - Check it out. 
http://answers.yahoo.com/dir/?link=list&sid=396545433

From andywiggin at gmail.com  Mon Sep 24 05:03:23 2007
From: andywiggin at gmail.com (Andy Wiggin)
Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2007 20:03:23 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] My apologies
Message-ID: <74e7428a0709232003h17d3cd12sd53d6755c4ff7118@mail.gmail.com>

I would like to apologize to any and all who took offense at my
remarks about my "disappointment" in "the Python powers that be", most
especially to Guido and others who make contributions to Python and
the Python community. I have great respect for what you have
accomplished, and I have learned from your well-reasoned decisions. In
a moment of poor judgment, I expressed my personal dissatisfaction
with your quite justifiable priorities and conclusions. I guess I
mis-characterized the situation as well, as there appear to be
contributors who are interested in the concurrency issue and are
addressing it in a productive way. Guido was right to call me on it,
and by doing so has taught me a lesson which I will take to heart. So,
thank you for that, and my apologies for my unwarranted remarks. I
assure you it will not happen again.

Regards,
Andy

From guido at python.org  Mon Sep 24 05:24:24 2007
From: guido at python.org (Guido van Rossum)
Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2007 20:24:24 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] My apologies
In-Reply-To: <74e7428a0709232003h17d3cd12sd53d6755c4ff7118@mail.gmail.com>
References: <74e7428a0709232003h17d3cd12sd53d6755c4ff7118@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <ca471dc20709232024s3f646297he89942b1663d6abd@mail.gmail.com>

Hey Andy,

Thanks for the apology. It's great to see someone own their actions.

I will apologize too for using strong words that would better have
been left unsaid, even if in this particular case they were effective.

--Guido

On 9/23/07, Andy Wiggin <andywiggin at gmail.com> wrote:
> I would like to apologize to any and all who took offense at my
> remarks about my "disappointment" in "the Python powers that be", most
> especially to Guido and others who make contributions to Python and
> the Python community. I have great respect for what you have
> accomplished, and I have learned from your well-reasoned decisions. In
> a moment of poor judgment, I expressed my personal dissatisfaction
> with your quite justifiable priorities and conclusions. I guess I
> mis-characterized the situation as well, as there appear to be
> contributors who are interested in the concurrency issue and are
> addressing it in a productive way. Guido was right to call me on it,
> and by doing so has taught me a lesson which I will take to heart. So,
> thank you for that, and my apologies for my unwarranted remarks. I
> assure you it will not happen again.
>
> Regards,
> Andy
> _______________________________________________
> Baypiggies mailing list
> Baypiggies at python.org
> To change your subscription options or unsubscribe:
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies
>


-- 
--Guido van Rossum (home page: http://www.python.org/~guido/)

From andywiggin at gmail.com  Mon Sep 24 06:27:01 2007
From: andywiggin at gmail.com (Andy Wiggin)
Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2007 21:27:01 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] My apologies
In-Reply-To: <ca471dc20709232024s3f646297he89942b1663d6abd@mail.gmail.com>
References: <74e7428a0709232003h17d3cd12sd53d6755c4ff7118@mail.gmail.com>
	<ca471dc20709232024s3f646297he89942b1663d6abd@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <74e7428a0709232127x539d64ceh8fb7ab86adba5359@mail.gmail.com>

Guido,
thank you very much for your kind response. Clearly you aren't the
BDFL for nothing. As for you apologizing, I assure you there is no
need, but thank you for that as well.

Regards,
Andy

On 9/23/07, Guido van Rossum <guido at python.org> wrote:
> Hey Andy,
>
> Thanks for the apology. It's great to see someone own their actions.
>
> I will apologize too for using strong words that would better have
> been left unsaid, even if in this particular case they were effective.
>
> --Guido

From rdm at cfcl.com  Tue Sep 25 16:30:16 2007
From: rdm at cfcl.com (Rich Morin)
Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2007 07:30:16 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] BASS Meeting (SF), Wed. September 26
Message-ID: <p062309e9c31ecb65449d@[192.168.1.205]>

The Beer and Scripting SIG rides again!  If you'd like to
eat good Italian food, chat with other local scripters,
and possibly take a look at laptop-demoed scripting hacks,
this is the place to do it!

For your convenience, here are the critical details:

  Date:   Wednesday, September 26, 2007 (4th. Wed.)
  Time:   8:00 pm
  Place:  Pasquales Pizzeria
          701 Irving St. (At 8th. Ave.)
          San Francisco, California, USA
          415/661-2140

See the BASS web page for more information:

  http://cfcl.com/rdm/bass/

-r
-- 
http://www.cfcl.com/rdm            Rich Morin
http://www.cfcl.com/rdm/resume     rdm at cfcl.com
http://www.cfcl.com/rdm/weblog     +1 650-873-7841

Technical editing and writing, programming, and web development

From kishore at mindriver-it.com  Wed Sep 26 05:55:30 2007
From: kishore at mindriver-it.com (kishore at mindriver-it.com)
Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2007 09:25:30 +0530
Subject: [Baypiggies] Urgent Requirement for Python developers for Bangalore
	Location
Message-ID: <20070926035137.E68431E4008@bag.python.org>

Hi 

 

     This is krishna Kishore from MindRiver. We have an Urgent Requirement
for Python Developers for Bangalore Location

 

Mandatory Skills    : Python,C/C++

 

 Experience Level  :  5-7Yrs

 

 

          If you are Looking for a change Please revert Us with your Updated
Profile along with your Contact Details 

 

 

 

Thanks & Regards,

Kishore Seethanraju |Senior Associate-People Consulting| MindRiver
Information Technologies Pvt. Ltd.
Suite# 512, 4th Floor and Suite # 104, Ground Floor ,Oxford Towers, 139,
Airport Road, Bangalore 560 008| Tel: +91.80.3052.1600 |Direct:
+91.80.3057.5799| Mobile: + 91.9901 96 1696 | Fax: +91.80.3057.5797| Email:
kishore at mindriver-it.com <mailto:skishore at mindriver-it.com>  | Web
www.mindriver-it.com <http://www.mindriver-it.com/>  

Information transmitted by this-mail is proprietary to MindRiver and / or
its Customers and is intended for use only by the individual or entity to
which it is addressed, and may contain information that is privileged,
confidential or exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you are not
the intended recipient or it appears that this mail has been forwarded to
you without proper authority, you are notified that any use or dissemination
of this information in any manner is strictly prohibited. In such cases,
please notify us immediately at the above mentioned telephone number or
email to services at mindriver-it.com and delete this mail from your records.
We believe this email to be virus free but do not warrant that this is the
case and we will not accept liability for any losses arising from any virus
being transmitted unintentionally by us'

 

-------------- next part --------------
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From kishore at mindriver-it.com  Wed Sep 26 06:25:02 2007
From: kishore at mindriver-it.com (kishore at mindriver-it.com)
Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2007 09:55:02 +0530
Subject: [Baypiggies] Urgent Requirement for Python developers for Bangalore
	Location
Message-ID: <20070926042109.BF65F1E4018@bag.python.org>

 

Hi 

 

     This is krishna Kishore from MindRiver. We have an Urgent Requirement
for Python Developers for Bangalore Location

 

Mandatory Skills                   : Python with C and C++

 

 Experience Level                 :  5-7Yrs

 

 Qualification         : B.E Only

 

 

          If you are Looking for a change Please revert Us with your Updated
Profile along with your Contact Details 

 

 

 

Thanks & Regards,

Kishore Seethanraju |Senior Associate-People Consulting| MindRiver
Information Technologies Pvt. Ltd.
Suite# 512, 4th Floor and Suite # 104, Ground Floor ,Oxford Towers, 139,
Airport Road, Bangalore 560 008| Tel: +91.80.3052.1600 |Direct:
+91.80.3057.5799| Mobile: + 91.9901 96 1696 | Fax: +91.80.3057.5797| Email:
kishore at mindriver-it.com <mailto:skishore at mindriver-it.com>  | Web
www.mindriver-it.com <http://www.mindriver-it.com/>  

Information transmitted by this-mail is proprietary to MindRiver and / or
its Customers and is intended for use only by the individual or entity to
which it is addressed, and may contain information that is privileged,
confidential or exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you are not
the intended recipient or it appears that this mail has been forwarded to
you without proper authority, you are notified that any use or dissemination
of this information in any manner is strictly prohibited. In such cases,
please notify us immediately at the above mentioned telephone number or
email to services at mindriver-it.com and delete this mail from your records.
We believe this email to be virus free but do not warrant that this is the
case and we will not accept liability for any losses arising from any virus
being transmitted unintentionally by us'

 

-------------- next part --------------
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From jjinux at gmail.com  Wed Sep 26 11:49:40 2007
From: jjinux at gmail.com (Shannon -jj Behrens)
Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2007 02:49:40 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] Urgent Requirement for Python developers for
	Bangalore Location
In-Reply-To: <20070926035137.E68431E4008@bag.python.org>
References: <20070926035137.E68431E4008@bag.python.org>
Message-ID: <c41f67b90709260249r2b174c6ds83b104df1e8b7e7c@mail.gmail.com>

I must sadly inform you that this job ad is in violation of our job ad
policy because the job is not located in the Bay Area.  Please see the
following for more details:

    http://baypiggies.net/jobs.html

Note, I'm posting this to the mailing list to prevent a huge uproar of
complaints ;)

Thanks!
-jj

On 9/25/07, kishore at mindriver-it.com <kishore at mindriver-it.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
> Hi
>
>
>
>      This is krishna Kishore from MindRiver. We have an Urgent Requirement
> for Python Developers for Bangalore Location
>
>
>
> Mandatory Skills    : Python,C/C++
>
>
>
>  Experience Level  :  5-7Yrs
>
>
>
>
>
>           If you are Looking for a change Please revert Us with your Updated
> Profile along with your Contact Details
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Thanks & Regards,
>
>  Kishore Seethanraju |Senior Associate-People Consulting| MindRiver
> Information Technologies Pvt. Ltd.
>  Suite# 512, 4th Floor and Suite # 104, Ground Floor ,Oxford Towers, 139,
> Airport Road, Bangalore 560 008| Tel: +91.80.3052.1600 |Direct:
> +91.80.3057.5799| Mobile: + 91.9901 96 1696 | Fax: +91.80.3057.5797| Email:
> kishore at mindriver-it.com | Web www.mindriver-it.com
>
>  Information transmitted by this-mail is proprietary to MindRiver and / or
> its Customers and is intended for use only by the individual or entity to
> which it is addressed, and may contain information that is privileged,
> confidential or exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you are not
> the intended recipient or it appears that this mail has been forwarded to
> you without proper authority, you are notified that any use or dissemination
> of this information in any manner is strictly prohibited. In such cases,
> please notify us immediately at the above mentioned telephone number or
> email to services at mindriver-it.com and delete this mail from your records.
> We believe this email to be virus free but do not warrant that this is the
> case and we will not accept liability for any losses arising from any virus
> being transmitted unintentionally by us'
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Baypiggies mailing list
> Baypiggies at python.org
> To change your subscription options or unsubscribe:
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies
>


-- 
http://jjinux.blogspot.com/

From aleax at google.com  Thu Sep 27 01:26:27 2007
From: aleax at google.com (Alex Martelli)
Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2007 16:26:27 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] QCon - introducing a new software developers
	conference
In-Reply-To: <FC0599E3D9ECA64289EE8EED55B50E1B1C6FFD@thor.DANISHTECHNOLOGY.local>
References: <FC0599E3D9ECA64289EE8EED55B50E1B1C6FFD@thor.DANISHTECHNOLOGY.local>
Message-ID: <55dc209b0709261626g195dff3fgb35b3acf20e872b8@mail.gmail.com>

On 9/26/07, Liv Beswick Skov <lbs at innovationcenterdenmark.com> wrote:
>
>  Hallo Baypiggies,
>

You *DO* know that the "p" there stands for Python, right?

The conference is providing a venue for learning, networking, and tracking
> innovation in the Java, .NET, Ruby, SOA, and Agile communities also with a
>
>

Explicitly listing these two languages (Java and Ruby), and just as
explicitly leaving Python out of the list of languages, makes this sentence
appear quite inimical to the Python community, by making it clear that the
Python language is NOT a "first-class citizen" from your point of view when
compared to Java and Ruby.  Please go spam mailing lists that are devoted to
the communities you list, and stop spamming lists devoted to languages you
so blatantly exclude from your purview.


Alex
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From guido at python.org  Thu Sep 27 02:22:50 2007
From: guido at python.org (Guido van Rossum)
Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2007 17:22:50 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] QCon - introducing a new software developers
	conference
In-Reply-To: <55dc209b0709261626g195dff3fgb35b3acf20e872b8@mail.gmail.com>
References: <FC0599E3D9ECA64289EE8EED55B50E1B1C6FFD@thor.DANISHTECHNOLOGY.local>
	<55dc209b0709261626g195dff3fgb35b3acf20e872b8@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <ca471dc20709261722o68efb6bwaf9fbcc866c2145c@mail.gmail.com>

Well said. Especially at $1600 or more (which was stated nowhere in
the email, nor on the front page of the conference website, but only
on the registration page). What's so different about this conference?
I very much doubt that if it was really organized "by software
developers, for software developers" it would cost that much. I don't
know any software developers who know how to spend that much money on
swag.

On 9/26/07, Alex Martelli <aleax at google.com> wrote:
> On 9/26/07, Liv Beswick Skov <lbs at innovationcenterdenmark.com> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Hallo Baypiggies,
>
> You *DO* know that the "p" there stands for Python, right?
>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > The conference is providing a venue for learning, networking, and tracking
> innovation in the Java, .NET, Ruby, SOA, and Agile communities also with a
>
> Explicitly listing these two languages (Java and Ruby), and just as
> explicitly leaving Python out of the list of languages, makes this sentence
> appear quite inimical to the Python community, by making it clear that the
> Python language is NOT a "first-class citizen" from your point of view when
> compared to Java and Ruby.  Please go spam mailing lists that are devoted to
> the communities you list, and stop spamming lists devoted to languages you
> so blatantly exclude from your purview.
>
>
> Alex
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Baypiggies mailing list
> Baypiggies at python.org
> To change your subscription options or unsubscribe:
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies
>


-- 
--Guido van Rossum (home page: http://www.python.org/~guido/)

From guido at python.org  Thu Sep 27 02:25:45 2007
From: guido at python.org (Guido van Rossum)
Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2007 17:25:45 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] QCon - introducing a new software developers
	conference
In-Reply-To: <ca471dc20709261722o68efb6bwaf9fbcc866c2145c@mail.gmail.com>
References: <FC0599E3D9ECA64289EE8EED55B50E1B1C6FFD@thor.DANISHTECHNOLOGY.local>
	<55dc209b0709261626g195dff3fgb35b3acf20e872b8@mail.gmail.com>
	<ca471dc20709261722o68efb6bwaf9fbcc866c2145c@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <ca471dc20709261725qc64e6c8l74f06e809e6e4145@mail.gmail.com>

On 9/26/07, Guido van Rossum <guido at python.org> wrote:
> Well said. Especially at $1600 or more (which was stated nowhere in

Make that $1800 until 9/30, or $1900 after that; the lower prices
(still listed) were only available for very early birds.

> the email, nor on the front page of the conference website, but only
> on the registration page). What's so different about this conference?
> I very much doubt that if it was really organized "by software
> developers, for software developers" it would cost that much. I don't
> know any software developers who know how to spend that much money on
> swag.
>
> On 9/26/07, Alex Martelli <aleax at google.com> wrote:
> > On 9/26/07, Liv Beswick Skov <lbs at innovationcenterdenmark.com> wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Hallo Baypiggies,
> >
> > You *DO* know that the "p" there stands for Python, right?
> >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > The conference is providing a venue for learning, networking, and tracking
> > innovation in the Java, .NET, Ruby, SOA, and Agile communities also with a
> >
> > Explicitly listing these two languages (Java and Ruby), and just as
> > explicitly leaving Python out of the list of languages, makes this sentence
> > appear quite inimical to the Python community, by making it clear that the
> > Python language is NOT a "first-class citizen" from your point of view when
> > compared to Java and Ruby.  Please go spam mailing lists that are devoted to
> > the communities you list, and stop spamming lists devoted to languages you
> > so blatantly exclude from your purview.
> >
> >
> > Alex
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Baypiggies mailing list
> > Baypiggies at python.org
> > To change your subscription options or unsubscribe:
> > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies
> >
>
>
> --
> --Guido van Rossum (home page: http://www.python.org/~guido/)
>


-- 
--Guido van Rossum (home page: http://www.python.org/~guido/)

From jjinux at gmail.com  Thu Sep 27 04:10:51 2007
From: jjinux at gmail.com (Shannon -jj Behrens)
Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2007 19:10:51 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] QCon - introducing a new software developers
	conference
In-Reply-To: <ca471dc20709261722o68efb6bwaf9fbcc866c2145c@mail.gmail.com>
References: <FC0599E3D9ECA64289EE8EED55B50E1B1C6FFD@thor.DANISHTECHNOLOGY.local>
	<55dc209b0709261626g195dff3fgb35b3acf20e872b8@mail.gmail.com>
	<ca471dc20709261722o68efb6bwaf9fbcc866c2145c@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <c41f67b90709261910j2976df28yfb9f2a55ae09ff83@mail.gmail.com>

If this is for developers and by developers, then $1600 is the *total*
cost of the conference, right?  That means we'll only have to spend
about $2 each, right?

Who do you guys think I am, an Oracle consultant? ;)

-jj

On 9/26/07, Guido van Rossum <guido at python.org> wrote:
> Well said. Especially at $1600 or more (which was stated nowhere in
> the email, nor on the front page of the conference website, but only
> on the registration page). What's so different about this conference?
> I very much doubt that if it was really organized "by software
> developers, for software developers" it would cost that much. I don't
> know any software developers who know how to spend that much money on
> swag.
>
> On 9/26/07, Alex Martelli <aleax at google.com> wrote:
> > On 9/26/07, Liv Beswick Skov <lbs at innovationcenterdenmark.com> wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Hallo Baypiggies,
> >
> > You *DO* know that the "p" there stands for Python, right?
> >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > The conference is providing a venue for learning, networking, and tracking
> > innovation in the Java, .NET, Ruby, SOA, and Agile communities also with a
> >
> > Explicitly listing these two languages (Java and Ruby), and just as
> > explicitly leaving Python out of the list of languages, makes this sentence
> > appear quite inimical to the Python community, by making it clear that the
> > Python language is NOT a "first-class citizen" from your point of view when
> > compared to Java and Ruby.  Please go spam mailing lists that are devoted to
> > the communities you list, and stop spamming lists devoted to languages you
> > so blatantly exclude from your purview.
> >
> >
> > Alex
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Baypiggies mailing list
> > Baypiggies at python.org
> > To change your subscription options or unsubscribe:
> > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies
> >
>
>
> --
> --Guido van Rossum (home page: http://www.python.org/~guido/)
> _______________________________________________
> Baypiggies mailing list
> Baypiggies at python.org
> To change your subscription options or unsubscribe:
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies
>


-- 
http://jjinux.blogspot.com/

From kenobi at gmail.com  Thu Sep 27 05:40:16 2007
From: kenobi at gmail.com (Rick Kwan)
Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2007 20:40:16 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] QCon - introducing a new software developers
	conference
In-Reply-To: <c41f67b90709261910j2976df28yfb9f2a55ae09ff83@mail.gmail.com>
References: <FC0599E3D9ECA64289EE8EED55B50E1B1C6FFD@thor.DANISHTECHNOLOGY.local>
	<55dc209b0709261626g195dff3fgb35b3acf20e872b8@mail.gmail.com>
	<ca471dc20709261722o68efb6bwaf9fbcc866c2145c@mail.gmail.com>
	<c41f67b90709261910j2976df28yfb9f2a55ae09ff83@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <f0aa69930709262040v750ae9eekc0e2a621b8acd214@mail.gmail.com>

Not to knock the conference or the discussion about who is really
organzing it, but ...
I saw a lot of e-mail addresses of BayPIGgies members on the initial
message.  In fact, was that the full member list?

--Rick Kwan

On 9/26/07, Shannon -jj Behrens <jjinux at gmail.com> wrote:
> If this is for developers and by developers, then $1600 is the *total*
> cost of the conference, right?  That means we'll only have to spend
> about $2 each, right?
>
> Who do you guys think I am, an Oracle consultant? ;)
>
> -jj
>
> On 9/26/07, Guido van Rossum <guido at python.org> wrote:
> > Well said. Especially at $1600 or more (which was stated nowhere in
> > the email, nor on the front page of the conference website, but only
> > on the registration page). What's so different about this conference?
> > I very much doubt that if it was really organized "by software
> > developers, for software developers" it would cost that much. I don't
> > know any software developers who know how to spend that much money on
> > swag.
> >
> > On 9/26/07, Alex Martelli <aleax at google.com> wrote:
> > > On 9/26/07, Liv Beswick Skov <lbs at innovationcenterdenmark.com> wrote:
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Hallo Baypiggies,
> > >
> > > You *DO* know that the "p" there stands for Python, right?
> > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > The conference is providing a venue for learning, networking, and tracking
> > > innovation in the Java, .NET, Ruby, SOA, and Agile communities also with a
> > >
> > > Explicitly listing these two languages (Java and Ruby), and just as
> > > explicitly leaving Python out of the list of languages, makes this sentence
> > > appear quite inimical to the Python community, by making it clear that the
> > > Python language is NOT a "first-class citizen" from your point of view when
> > > compared to Java and Ruby.  Please go spam mailing lists that are devoted to
> > > the communities you list, and stop spamming lists devoted to languages you
> > > so blatantly exclude from your purview.
> > >
> > >
> > > Alex
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Baypiggies mailing list
> > > Baypiggies at python.org
> > > To change your subscription options or unsubscribe:
> > > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies
> > >
> >
> >
> > --
> > --Guido van Rossum (home page: http://www.python.org/~guido/)
> > _______________________________________________
> > Baypiggies mailing list
> > Baypiggies at python.org
> > To change your subscription options or unsubscribe:
> > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies
> >
>
>
> --
> http://jjinux.blogspot.com/
> _______________________________________________
> Baypiggies mailing list
> Baypiggies at python.org
> To change your subscription options or unsubscribe:
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies
>

From dreid at dreid.org  Thu Sep 27 05:57:35 2007
From: dreid at dreid.org (David Reid)
Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2007 20:57:35 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] QCon - introducing a new software developers
	conference
In-Reply-To: <f0aa69930709262040v750ae9eekc0e2a621b8acd214@mail.gmail.com>
References: <FC0599E3D9ECA64289EE8EED55B50E1B1C6FFD@thor.DANISHTECHNOLOGY.local>
	<55dc209b0709261626g195dff3fgb35b3acf20e872b8@mail.gmail.com>
	<ca471dc20709261722o68efb6bwaf9fbcc866c2145c@mail.gmail.com>
	<c41f67b90709261910j2976df28yfb9f2a55ae09ff83@mail.gmail.com>
	<f0aa69930709262040v750ae9eekc0e2a621b8acd214@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <EE5BE78C-9233-4296-AC40-224B02E748A7@dreid.org>


On Sep 26, 2007, at 8:40 PM, Rick Kwan wrote:

> I saw a lot of e-mail addresses of BayPIGgies members on the initial
> message.  In fact, was that the full member list?

I think it was just the non-digest list members.  I apparently sent  
the original to /dev/null but i think it was about 370 addresses.   
Mailman reports the non-digest list members as totaling 371.

-David

> --Rick Kwan
>
> On 9/26/07, Shannon -jj Behrens <jjinux at gmail.com> wrote:
>> If this is for developers and by developers, then $1600 is the  
>> *total*
>> cost of the conference, right?  That means we'll only have to spend
>> about $2 each, right?
>>
>> Who do you guys think I am, an Oracle consultant? ;)
>>
>> -jj
>>
>> On 9/26/07, Guido van Rossum <guido at python.org> wrote:
>>> Well said. Especially at $1600 or more (which was stated nowhere in
>>> the email, nor on the front page of the conference website, but only
>>> on the registration page). What's so different about this  
>>> conference?
>>> I very much doubt that if it was really organized "by software
>>> developers, for software developers" it would cost that much. I  
>>> don't
>>> know any software developers who know how to spend that much  
>>> money on
>>> swag.
>>>
>>> On 9/26/07, Alex Martelli <aleax at google.com> wrote:
>>>> On 9/26/07, Liv Beswick Skov <lbs at innovationcenterdenmark.com>  
>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Hallo Baypiggies,
>>>>
>>>> You *DO* know that the "p" there stands for Python, right?
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> The conference is providing a venue for learning, networking,  
>>>>> and tracking
>>>> innovation in the Java, .NET, Ruby, SOA, and Agile communities  
>>>> also with a
>>>>
>>>> Explicitly listing these two languages (Java and Ruby), and just as
>>>> explicitly leaving Python out of the list of languages, makes  
>>>> this sentence
>>>> appear quite inimical to the Python community, by making it  
>>>> clear that the
>>>> Python language is NOT a "first-class citizen" from your point  
>>>> of view when
>>>> compared to Java and Ruby.  Please go spam mailing lists that  
>>>> are devoted to
>>>> the communities you list, and stop spamming lists devoted to  
>>>> languages you
>>>> so blatantly exclude from your purview.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Alex
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Baypiggies mailing list
>>>> Baypiggies at python.org
>>>> To change your subscription options or unsubscribe:
>>>> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> --Guido van Rossum (home page: http://www.python.org/~guido/)
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Baypiggies mailing list
>>> Baypiggies at python.org
>>> To change your subscription options or unsubscribe:
>>> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> http://jjinux.blogspot.com/
>> _______________________________________________
>> Baypiggies mailing list
>> Baypiggies at python.org
>> To change your subscription options or unsubscribe:
>> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies
>>
> _______________________________________________
> Baypiggies mailing list
> Baypiggies at python.org
> To change your subscription options or unsubscribe:
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies


From guido at python.org  Thu Sep 27 06:38:13 2007
From: guido at python.org (Guido van Rossum)
Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2007 21:38:13 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] QCon - introducing a new software developers
	conference
In-Reply-To: <EE5BE78C-9233-4296-AC40-224B02E748A7@dreid.org>
References: <FC0599E3D9ECA64289EE8EED55B50E1B1C6FFD@thor.DANISHTECHNOLOGY.local>
	<55dc209b0709261626g195dff3fgb35b3acf20e872b8@mail.gmail.com>
	<ca471dc20709261722o68efb6bwaf9fbcc866c2145c@mail.gmail.com>
	<c41f67b90709261910j2976df28yfb9f2a55ae09ff83@mail.gmail.com>
	<f0aa69930709262040v750ae9eekc0e2a621b8acd214@mail.gmail.com>
	<EE5BE78C-9233-4296-AC40-224B02E748A7@dreid.org>
Message-ID: <ca471dc20709262138l76cacc09k8105377174af00fb@mail.gmail.com>

Wow. Why would they bother spamming us individually if they are
targeting the entire list?!?

On 9/26/07, David Reid <dreid at dreid.org> wrote:
>
> On Sep 26, 2007, at 8:40 PM, Rick Kwan wrote:
>
> > I saw a lot of e-mail addresses of BayPIGgies members on the initial
> > message.  In fact, was that the full member list?
>
> I think it was just the non-digest list members.  I apparently sent
> the original to /dev/null but i think it was about 370 addresses.
> Mailman reports the non-digest list members as totaling 371.
>
> -David
>
> > --Rick Kwan
> >
> > On 9/26/07, Shannon -jj Behrens <jjinux at gmail.com> wrote:
> >> If this is for developers and by developers, then $1600 is the
> >> *total*
> >> cost of the conference, right?  That means we'll only have to spend
> >> about $2 each, right?
> >>
> >> Who do you guys think I am, an Oracle consultant? ;)
> >>
> >> -jj
> >>
> >> On 9/26/07, Guido van Rossum <guido at python.org> wrote:
> >>> Well said. Especially at $1600 or more (which was stated nowhere in
> >>> the email, nor on the front page of the conference website, but only
> >>> on the registration page). What's so different about this
> >>> conference?
> >>> I very much doubt that if it was really organized "by software
> >>> developers, for software developers" it would cost that much. I
> >>> don't
> >>> know any software developers who know how to spend that much
> >>> money on
> >>> swag.
> >>>
> >>> On 9/26/07, Alex Martelli <aleax at google.com> wrote:
> >>>> On 9/26/07, Liv Beswick Skov <lbs at innovationcenterdenmark.com>
> >>>> wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Hallo Baypiggies,
> >>>>
> >>>> You *DO* know that the "p" there stands for Python, right?
> >>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> The conference is providing a venue for learning, networking,
> >>>>> and tracking
> >>>> innovation in the Java, .NET, Ruby, SOA, and Agile communities
> >>>> also with a
> >>>>
> >>>> Explicitly listing these two languages (Java and Ruby), and just as
> >>>> explicitly leaving Python out of the list of languages, makes
> >>>> this sentence
> >>>> appear quite inimical to the Python community, by making it
> >>>> clear that the
> >>>> Python language is NOT a "first-class citizen" from your point
> >>>> of view when
> >>>> compared to Java and Ruby.  Please go spam mailing lists that
> >>>> are devoted to
> >>>> the communities you list, and stop spamming lists devoted to
> >>>> languages you
> >>>> so blatantly exclude from your purview.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> Alex
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>> Baypiggies mailing list
> >>>> Baypiggies at python.org
> >>>> To change your subscription options or unsubscribe:
> >>>> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> --
> >>> --Guido van Rossum (home page: http://www.python.org/~guido/)
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> Baypiggies mailing list
> >>> Baypiggies at python.org
> >>> To change your subscription options or unsubscribe:
> >>> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >> http://jjinux.blogspot.com/
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Baypiggies mailing list
> >> Baypiggies at python.org
> >> To change your subscription options or unsubscribe:
> >> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies
> >>
> > _______________________________________________
> > Baypiggies mailing list
> > Baypiggies at python.org
> > To change your subscription options or unsubscribe:
> > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies
>
> _______________________________________________
> Baypiggies mailing list
> Baypiggies at python.org
> To change your subscription options or unsubscribe:
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies
>


-- 
--Guido van Rossum (home page: http://www.python.org/~guido/)

From wescpy at gmail.com  Thu Sep 27 10:17:26 2007
From: wescpy at gmail.com (wesley chun)
Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2007 01:17:26 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] QCon - introducing a new software developers
	conference
In-Reply-To: <ca471dc20709262138l76cacc09k8105377174af00fb@mail.gmail.com>
References: <FC0599E3D9ECA64289EE8EED55B50E1B1C6FFD@thor.DANISHTECHNOLOGY.local>
	<55dc209b0709261626g195dff3fgb35b3acf20e872b8@mail.gmail.com>
	<ca471dc20709261722o68efb6bwaf9fbcc866c2145c@mail.gmail.com>
	<c41f67b90709261910j2976df28yfb9f2a55ae09ff83@mail.gmail.com>
	<f0aa69930709262040v750ae9eekc0e2a621b8acd214@mail.gmail.com>
	<EE5BE78C-9233-4296-AC40-224B02E748A7@dreid.org>
	<ca471dc20709262138l76cacc09k8105377174af00fb@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <78b3a9580709270117s3b237e32u92c7c1e08990a599@mail.gmail.com>

> Wow. Why would they bother spamming us individually if they are
> targeting the entire list?!?

it's possible that aahz blocked her, as seen in this msg sent only to
list admins:

On 9/26/07, Aahz <aahz at pythoncraft.com> wrote:
> On Wed, Sep 26, 2007, Liv Beswick Skov wrote:
> > I tried subscribing to your mailing list, but I couldn't find a way to
> > submit the news about the conference? Do I send a e-mail with the
> > information to baypiggies at python.org?
>
> Correct.  It should be Python-related (I'll assume that you're local
> given your address in Palo Alto.)


if aahz blocked her, then it's possible that she sent someone to
harvest the BayPIGgies archives to build the entire list of anyone who
has ever sent a msg to the list.

just a guess...
-- wesley
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
"Core Python Programming", Prentice Hall, (c)2007,2001
    http://corepython.com

wesley.j.chun :: wescpy-at-gmail.com
python training and technical consulting
cyberweb.consulting : silicon valley, ca
http://cyberwebconsulting.com

From aahz at pythoncraft.com  Thu Sep 27 17:14:47 2007
From: aahz at pythoncraft.com (Aahz)
Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2007 08:14:47 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] QCon - introducing a new software developers
	conference
In-Reply-To: <78b3a9580709270117s3b237e32u92c7c1e08990a599@mail.gmail.com>
References: <FC0599E3D9ECA64289EE8EED55B50E1B1C6FFD@thor.DANISHTECHNOLOGY.local>
	<55dc209b0709261626g195dff3fgb35b3acf20e872b8@mail.gmail.com>
	<ca471dc20709261722o68efb6bwaf9fbcc866c2145c@mail.gmail.com>
	<c41f67b90709261910j2976df28yfb9f2a55ae09ff83@mail.gmail.com>
	<f0aa69930709262040v750ae9eekc0e2a621b8acd214@mail.gmail.com>
	<EE5BE78C-9233-4296-AC40-224B02E748A7@dreid.org>
	<ca471dc20709262138l76cacc09k8105377174af00fb@mail.gmail.com>
	<78b3a9580709270117s3b237e32u92c7c1e08990a599@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20070927151447.GA26183@panix.com>

On Thu, Sep 27, 2007, wesley chun wrote:
> 
> it's possible that aahz blocked her, as seen in this msg sent only to
> list admins:
> 
> On 9/26/07, Aahz <aahz at pythoncraft.com> wrote:
>> On Wed, Sep 26, 2007, Liv Beswick Skov wrote:
>>> I tried subscribing to your mailing list, but I couldn't find a way to
>>> submit the news about the conference? Do I send a e-mail with the
>>> information to baypiggies at python.org?
>>
>> Correct.  It should be Python-related (I'll assume that you're local
>> given your address in Palo Alto.)
> 
> if aahz blocked her, then it's possible that she sent someone to
> harvest the BayPIGgies archives to build the entire list of anyone who
> has ever sent a msg to the list.

Nope -- looked like she was trying to be polite; I had no clue that
she'd spam like that.  AFAICT, because Mailman blocked the message due
to too many cc's, the only people who have seen this are those who were
directly cc'd -- Alex's message was the first that made it the list.
-- 
Aahz (aahz at pythoncraft.com)           <*>         http://www.pythoncraft.com/

The best way to get information on Usenet is not to ask a question, but
to post the wrong information.

From mlum at redhat.com  Thu Sep 27 18:50:01 2007
From: mlum at redhat.com (Margaret Lum)
Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2007 09:50:01 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] QCon - introducing a new software
	developers	conference
In-Reply-To: <20070927151447.GA26183@panix.com>
References: <FC0599E3D9ECA64289EE8EED55B50E1B1C6FFD@thor.DANISHTECHNOLOGY.local>	<55dc209b0709261626g195dff3fgb35b3acf20e872b8@mail.gmail.com>	<ca471dc20709261722o68efb6bwaf9fbcc866c2145c@mail.gmail.com>	<c41f67b90709261910j2976df28yfb9f2a55ae09ff83@mail.gmail.com>	<f0aa69930709262040v750ae9eekc0e2a621b8acd214@mail.gmail.com>	<EE5BE78C-9233-4296-AC40-224B02E748A7@dreid.org>	<ca471dc20709262138l76cacc09k8105377174af00fb@mail.gmail.com>	<78b3a9580709270117s3b237e32u92c7c1e08990a599@mail.gmail.com>
	<20070927151447.GA26183@panix.com>
Message-ID: <46FBDF39.10508@redhat.com>

Aahz wrote:
> On Thu, Sep 27, 2007, wesley chun wrote:
>   
>> it's possible that aahz blocked her, as seen in this msg sent only to
>> list admins:
>>
>> On 9/26/07, Aahz <aahz at pythoncraft.com> wrote:
>>     
>>> On Wed, Sep 26, 2007, Liv Beswick Skov wrote:
>>>       
>>>> I tried subscribing to your mailing list, but I couldn't find a way to
>>>> submit the news about the conference? Do I send a e-mail with the
>>>> information to baypiggies at python.org?
>>>>         
>>> Correct.  It should be Python-related (I'll assume that you're local
>>> given your address in Palo Alto.)
>>>       
>> if aahz blocked her, then it's possible that she sent someone to
>> harvest the BayPIGgies archives to build the entire list of anyone who
>> has ever sent a msg to the list.
>>     
>
> Nope -- looked like she was trying to be polite; I had no clue that
> she'd spam like that.  AFAICT, because Mailman blocked the message due
> to too many cc's, the only people who have seen this are those who were
> directly cc'd -- Alex's message was the first that made it the list.
>   
I seldom post, mostly to be polite to others :)

IMHO, if one is going to send email to a large distribution of 
addresses, they should only put themselves as the To: recipient, and 
Bcc: (blind copy) the distribution.

-- 
-Margaret
I apologize for any spam this message may have caused.

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From jjinux at gmail.com  Fri Sep 28 21:20:46 2007
From: jjinux at gmail.com (Shannon -jj Behrens)
Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2007 12:20:46 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] Fwd: [wingware-announce] Wing IDE 3.0 released
In-Reply-To: <46FD3156.5000102@wingware.com>
References: <46FD273F.90202@wingware.com> <46FD3156.5000102@wingware.com>
Message-ID: <c41f67b90709281220r7a3a50aes8ed93631d3559b96@mail.gmail.com>

Anyone want to try it out and send a report to the list?

-jj

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Wingware <info at wingware.com>
Date: Sep 28, 2007 9:52 AM
Subject: [wingware-announce] Wing IDE 3.0 released
To: product-announce at wingware.com


Hi,

We're happy to announce the release of Wing IDE 3.0, an advanced
development environment for the Python programming language.
It is available from:

http://wingware.com/

Wing IDE provides powerful debugging, editing, code intelligence,
testing, and search capabilities that reduce development and debugging
time, cut down on coding errors, and make it easier to understand
and navigate Python code.

New features added in Wing 3.0 include:

* Multi-threaded debugger
* Debug value tooltips in editor, debug probe, and interactive shell
* Autocompletion and call tips in debug probe and interactive shell
* Automatically updating project directories
* Testing tool, currently supporting unittest derived tests (*)
* OS Commands tool for executing and interacting with external
   commands (*)
* Rewritten indentation analysis and conversion (*)
* Introduction of Wing IDE 101, a free edition for beginning
   programmers
* Available as a .deb package for Debian and Ubuntu
* Support for Stackless Python
* Support for 64 bit Python on Windows and Linux

(*)'d items are available in Wing IDE Professional only.

The CHANGELOG.txt file in the installation provides additional details.

System requirements are Windows 2000 or later, OS X 10.3.9 or later for
PPC or Intel (requires X11 Server), or a recent Linux system (either 32
or 64 bit).

Purchasing & Upgrading
----------------------

Wing IDE Professional & Wing IDE Personal are commercial software and
require a license to run.  To upgrade a 2.x license or purchase a new
3.x license:

Upgrade        https://wingware.com/store/upgrade
Purchase       https://wingware.com/store/purchase

Any 2.x license sold after May 2nd 2006 is free to upgrade; others cost
1/2 the normal price to upgrade.

Thanks!

The Wingware Team
Wingware | Python IDE
Advancing Software Development

www.wingware.com


_______________________________________________
Wing IDE announcements mailing list
http://wingide.com/lists/announce


-- 
http://jjinux.blogspot.com/

From cappy2112 at gmail.com  Fri Sep 28 22:01:50 2007
From: cappy2112 at gmail.com (Tony Cappellini)
Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2007 13:01:50 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] Fwd: [wingware-announce] Wing IDE 3.0 released
In-Reply-To: <c41f67b90709281220r7a3a50aes8ed93631d3559b96@mail.gmail.com>
References: <46FD273F.90202@wingware.com> <46FD3156.5000102@wingware.com>
	<c41f67b90709281220r7a3a50aes8ed93631d3559b96@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <8249c4ac0709281301p59191f89kf5bdedbd8926ec9@mail.gmail.com>

Got the update this morning- been working with it since ~9AM, but I
may not have exercised any of the bug fixes or new features (if any).

In general, it's been very solid (for my use) since last year, when I
started using it.

I showed it to a co-worker who wasn't aware of it, and he now uses it also.
The place I work has bought 2 licenses for the professional version of Wing IDE.

Wingware's tech support is very supportive & responsive, and are
always open to new suggestions.



On 9/28/07, Shannon -jj Behrens <jjinux at gmail.com> wrote:
> Anyone want to try it out and send a report to the list?
>
> -jj
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: Wingware <info at wingware.com>
> Date: Sep 28, 2007 9:52 AM
> Subject: [wingware-announce] Wing IDE 3.0 released
> To: product-announce at wingware.com
>
>
> Hi,
>
> We're happy to announce the release of Wing IDE 3.0, an advanced
> development environment for the Python programming language.
> It is available from:
>
> http://wingware.com/
>
> Wing IDE provides powerful debugging, editing, code intelligence,
> testing, and search capabilities that reduce development and debugging
> time, cut down on coding errors, and make it easier to understand
> and navigate Python code.
>
> New features added in Wing 3.0 include:
>
> * Multi-threaded debugger
> * Debug value tooltips in editor, debug probe, and interactive shell
> * Autocompletion and call tips in debug probe and interactive shell
> * Automatically updating project directories
> * Testing tool, currently supporting unittest derived tests (*)
> * OS Commands tool for executing and interacting with external
>    commands (*)
> * Rewritten indentation analysis and conversion (*)
> * Introduction of Wing IDE 101, a free edition for beginning
>    programmers
> * Available as a .deb package for Debian and Ubuntu
> * Support for Stackless Python
> * Support for 64 bit Python on Windows and Linux
>
> (*)'d items are available in Wing IDE Professional only.
>
> The CHANGELOG.txt file in the installation provides additional details.
>
> System requirements are Windows 2000 or later, OS X 10.3.9 or later for
> PPC or Intel (requires X11 Server), or a recent Linux system (either 32
> or 64 bit).
>
> Purchasing & Upgrading
> ----------------------
>
> Wing IDE Professional & Wing IDE Personal are commercial software and
> require a license to run.  To upgrade a 2.x license or purchase a new
> 3.x license:
>
> Upgrade        https://wingware.com/store/upgrade
> Purchase       https://wingware.com/store/purchase
>
> Any 2.x license sold after May 2nd 2006 is free to upgrade; others cost
> 1/2 the normal price to upgrade.
>
> Thanks!
>
> The Wingware Team
> Wingware | Python IDE
> Advancing Software Development
>
> www.wingware.com
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wing IDE announcements mailing list
> http://wingide.com/lists/announce
>
>
> --
> http://jjinux.blogspot.com/
> _______________________________________________
> Baypiggies mailing list
> Baypiggies at python.org
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