From carroll at tjc.com  Thu Feb  1 02:24:42 2007
From: carroll at tjc.com (Terry Carroll)
Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2007 17:24:42 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Baypiggies] [vote] name change
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0701311724290.437-100000@violet.rahul.net>

On Tue, 30 Jan 2007, Shannon -jj Behrens wrote:

> To change the name of this mailing list, vote +1 and propose an alternate.
> To keep the existing name, vote -1.

+0

I would like the group's name changed, and voted to do so last time, which 
was not all that long ago.

I think those of us who wanted the name changed should acknowledge that 
we're substantially in the minority and accept it, at least for a 
respectful amount of time.  Let's check in maybe a couple years after the 
last vote on this.




From carroll at tjc.com  Thu Feb  1 02:30:10 2007
From: carroll at tjc.com (Terry Carroll)
Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2007 17:30:10 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Baypiggies] [vote] name change
In-Reply-To: <003901c74567$67b14f90$51a2480c@aluminum>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0701311728280.437-100000@violet.rahul.net>

On Wed, 31 Jan 2007, James Hartley wrote:

> Given that you joined the group while its name is BayPIGgies indicates
> that the name isn't important to you either.  

I disagree with that.  It indicates that belonging to the local group of 
Python enthusiasts was more important than the name.  It does not mean the 
name was unimportant.



From DennisR at dair.com  Thu Feb  1 02:39:39 2007
From: DennisR at dair.com (Dennis Reinhardt)
Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2007 17:39:39 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] [vote] name change
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0701311724290.437-100000@violet.rahul.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20070131173616.00bf17f8@localhost>

At 05:24 PM 1/31/2007, Terry Carroll wrote:
>On Tue, 30 Jan 2007, Shannon -jj Behrens wrote:
>
> > To change the name of this mailing list, vote +1 and propose an alternate.
> > To keep the existing name, vote -1.

-1 to change the name of *this* list
+1 to create a new name for list(s) we are about to add.

         [BayPiggies Announce] is just too long for a new list name
         [BP Announce] or some short name is better for *new* list


  ---------------------------------
| Dennis    | DennisR at dair.com    |
| Reinhardt | http://www.dair.com |
  ---------------------------------


From carroll at tjc.com  Thu Feb  1 02:17:59 2007
From: carroll at tjc.com (Terry Carroll)
Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2007 17:17:59 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Baypiggies] [vote] admin list, jobs list
In-Reply-To: <c41f67b90701301446l594508fbt8942d77fff0ce426@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0701311717260.437-100000@violet.rahul.net>

On Tue, 30 Jan 2007, Shannon -jj Behrens wrote:

> * Should we have an admin list? (+1 yes, -1 no)

-1
 
> * Should we have a separate jobs list? (+1 yes, -1 no)

-1



From doug.durham at yahoo.com  Thu Feb  1 02:55:11 2007
From: doug.durham at yahoo.com (doug.durham at yahoo.com)
Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2007 17:55:11 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Baypiggies] [vote] name change
Message-ID: <258150.90795.qm@web31809.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

I vote -1.  Change nothing.

Please let's move on.  I'd rather see some technical discussions.

----- Original Message ----
From: Dennis Reinhardt <DennisR at dair.com>
To: baypiggies at python.org
Sent: Wednesday, January 31, 2007 5:39:39 PM
Subject: Re: [Baypiggies] [vote] name change

At 05:24 PM 1/31/2007, Terry Carroll wrote:
>On Tue, 30 Jan 2007, Shannon -jj Behrens wrote:
>
> > To change the name of this mailing list, vote +1 and propose an alternate.
> > To keep the existing name, vote -1.

-1 to change the name of *this* list
+1 to create a new name for list(s) we are about to add.

         [BayPiggies Announce] is just too long for a new list name
         [BP Announce] or some short name is better for *new* list


  ---------------------------------
| Dennis    | DennisR at dair.com    |
| Reinhardt | http://www.dair.com |
  ---------------------------------

_______________________________________________
Baypiggies mailing list
Baypiggies at python.org
To change your subscription options or unsubscribe:
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies




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From whitaker at google.com  Thu Feb  1 04:31:16 2007
From: whitaker at google.com (Russell Whitaker)
Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2007 19:31:16 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] Fwd: Watch "Baypiggies 2006 Member Survey Results" on
	Google Video
In-Reply-To: <30154666.821170300486022.JavaMail.video@cwdi2.prod.google.com>
References: <30154666.821170300486022.JavaMail.video@cwdi2.prod.google.com>
Message-ID: <997a56990701311931m6061d1efpe5ea9beb016092da@mail.gmail.com>

Here's that Baypiggies meeting I filmed a few weeks ago.  Please be kind:
I'd just learned how to operate the video and audio gear an hour before.

Russell

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: russell.whitaker <noreply at google.com>
Date: Jan 31, 2007 7:28 PM
Subject: Watch "Baypiggies 2006 Member Survey Results" on Google Video
To: whitaker at google.com
Cc: russell.whitaker at gmail.com

Your friend, russell.whitaker at gmail.com, has sent you the following video
from Google Video:

*Baypiggies 2006 Member Survey Results*
<http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-540262696706523167&q=baypiggies&pr=goog-sl&hl=en>
1 hr 23 min 19 sec - Jan 17, 2007
*Average rating:*   (1 rating)
*Description:* Google Tech Talks January 11, 2007 ABSTRACT 2006 Member
Survey Results.

Want to see more cool videos?
Go to video.google.com/?hl=en

Think you have an even cooler video?
Add it at video.google.com/videouploadform?hl=en

If you're having trouble watching the video, try copying the following URL
into your browser:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-540262696706523167&q=baypiggies&pr=goog-sl&hl=en



-- 
Russell Whitaker
Sysops Tools Team Lead
Google Inc., Mt View, CA
"gets() remains as a monument to C's continuing support of buffer overruns."
- Bill Frantz
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From marilyn at deliberate.com  Thu Feb  1 06:56:08 2007
From: marilyn at deliberate.com (Marilyn Davis)
Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2007 21:56:08 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] [vote] name change
Message-ID: <20070201055610.BB2591E4006@bag.python.org>

----- On Wednesday, January 31, 2007 DennisR at dair.com wrote:

> At 05:24 PM 1/31/2007, Terry Carroll wrote:
>>On Tue, 30 Jan 2007, Shannon -jj Behrens wrote:
>>
>> > To change the name of this mailing list, vote +1 and propose an alternate.
>> > To keep the existing name, vote -1.
> 
> -1 to change the name of *this* list
> +1 to create a new name for list(s) we are about to add.
> 
> [BayPiggies Announce] is just too long for a new list name
> [BP Announce] or some short name is better for *new* list

We haven't been invited to vote on that, although that was the proposal I put forward.  Thank you for remembering.

Terry Carroll said:

> +0
>
> I would like the group's name changed, and voted to do so last time, which
> was not all that long ago.
>
> I think those of us who wanted the name changed should acknowledge that
> we're substantially in the minority and accept it, at least for a
> respectful amount of time.  Let's check in maybe a couple years after the
> last vote on this.

--

Yes.  It was JJ, who is opposed to name-changing, who is polling the group about this, which wasn't anyone's proposal.  Sort of a slight-of-hand, mob-rule kind of trick.  But, I say this smiling, because it is amusing and not so important.  I just thought the pending length of the new lists' names was a good excuse to bend the name a little and appease us who are not content with the name.  But, clearly JJ didn't agree and put forward a losing proposal instead.

It's all good,

Marilyn

> 
> 
> ---------------------------------
> | Dennis    | DennisR at dair.com    |
> | Reinhardt | http://www.dair.com |
> ---------------------------------
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Baypiggies mailing list
> Baypiggies at python.org
> To change your subscription options or unsubscribe:
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies





From spmcinerney at hotmail.com  Thu Feb  1 07:33:12 2007
From: spmcinerney at hotmail.com (Stephen McInerney)
Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2007 22:33:12 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] [vote] name change
In-Reply-To: <20070201055610.BB2591E4006@bag.python.org>
Message-ID: <BAY131-F29AA9D18962AB125D0EB83A0A40@phx.gbl>

Marilyn,

I think JJ asked the question in a neutral way, the majority has weighed in 
on this, and I think it's time to close the discussion for 2007.
The count of all people who want to change the name (to all the various new 
proposed names)
is heavily outnumbered by something like ~1:3 or 1:4 by the people who 
don't.
When this same question was asked in 2006 (by your poll) the results were 
similarly heavily against.
I totally understand you strongly dislike the name but I can't see any 
better alternative that
has been proposed. At some point we have to end this iteration of the 
discussion -
can we at least follow Terry's suggestion and take this off the table until 
Feb 2008?

I would much rather spend time finalizing February's unconfirmed meeting 
agenda,
the March meeting (whether people will organized a presentation on what they 
attended at PyCon or not), profiling, possibly a recruiter's evening, Python 
in animation, Python in education, capabilities-secure Pyth-E, the Bay Area 
bid for PyCon 2008, and other proposals for this year's coming meetings.

Tomorrow is already Feb 1, and yet again http://www.baypiggies.net/ is still 
showing the January meeting instead of the forthcoming (unconfirmed) Feb 8 
meeting! This is really very poor, and to my mind infinitely more 
unprofessional than any choice of group name.

For the record my votes are:
-1 to namechange
+1 to -admin list (for activity organizing, not this sort of 
meta-discussion)
+1 to [JOBS] and [ADMIN] tags on existing list

Regards,
Stephen

_________________________________________________________________
Turn searches into helpful donations. Make your search count. 
http://click4thecause.live.com/search/charity/default.aspx?source=hmemtagline_donation&FORM=WLMTAG


From aahz at pythoncraft.com  Thu Feb  1 15:22:42 2007
From: aahz at pythoncraft.com (Aahz)
Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2007 06:22:42 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] [ADMIN] List language
In-Reply-To: <20070201055610.BB2591E4006@bag.python.org>
References: <20070201055610.BB2591E4006@bag.python.org>
Message-ID: <20070201142242.GB24639@panix.com>

On Wed, Jan 31, 2007, Marilyn Davis wrote:
> ----- On Wednesday, January 31, 2007 DennisR at dair.com wrote:
>> 
>> I think those of us who wanted the name changed should acknowledge
>> that we're substantially in the minority and accept it, at least for
>> a respectful amount of time.  Let's check in maybe a couple years
>> after the last vote on this.
>
> Yes.  It was JJ, who is opposed to name-changing, who is polling
> the group about this, which wasn't anyone's proposal.  Sort of a
> slight-of-hand, mob-rule kind of trick.

Really?  Saying things like makes me wonder who exactly is playing the
trick, so here are your own words:

http://mail.python.org/pipermail/baypiggies/2006-April/000376.html

Although I'm no longer the official list admin, I still would like this
list conducted with professional language, and using terms such as
"slight-of-hand", "mob-rule", and "trick" is insulting, offensive, and
inappropriate.
-- 
Aahz (aahz at pythoncraft.com)           <*>         http://www.pythoncraft.com/

"I disrespectfully agree."  --SJM

From jim at well.com  Thu Feb  1 15:28:56 2007
From: jim at well.com (jim stockford)
Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2007 06:28:56 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] Seeking February (and March and April) speakers
In-Reply-To: <45B628D1.2060301@bigasterisk.com>
References: <BAY131-F21F46241E2798D1DC25841A0AD0@phx.gbl>
	<45B628D1.2060301@bigasterisk.com>
Message-ID: <8d1ac7aace7a0fe16c64089bae6089c9@well.com>


thanks again for volunteering.
could you get me the following info for
me to include in the meeting announcement:

your name as you'd like it listed
any affiliation you'd like to mention
some salient bio (couple of sentences or so)
a title for your presentation
a couple or three sentences summarizing the topic

many thanks,
jim stockford
415 823 4590 my cellphone, call anytime

i figure Dennis will go first, then you, then ken.
can change the order if you wish.
jim


On Jan 23, 2007, at 7:25 AM, Drew Perttula wrote:

> Stephen McInerney wrote:
>> * Ken Seehart had expressed interest in presenting a snippet from 
>> January?
>> There seemed to be support for aiming to regularly *briefly* present
>> 1/2 snippets at the start of each meeting, before the main activity.
>> (I forget did Drew mention something as well?)
>
> http://drewp.quickwitretort.com/2006/12/25/0
>
> I could demo that and explain how it works.
>


From aahz at pythoncraft.com  Thu Feb  1 15:27:33 2007
From: aahz at pythoncraft.com (Aahz)
Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2007 06:27:33 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] [vote] name change
In-Reply-To: <BAY131-F29AA9D18962AB125D0EB83A0A40@phx.gbl>
References: <20070201055610.BB2591E4006@bag.python.org>
	<BAY131-F29AA9D18962AB125D0EB83A0A40@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <20070201142733.GC24639@panix.com>

On Wed, Jan 31, 2007, Stephen McInerney wrote:
>
> can we at least follow Terry's suggestion and take this off the table
> until Feb 2008?

Two years would be Feb 2009.  Given that two successive polls have
declined the namechange by a landslide, I would prefer to remove this
issue from discussion for at least five years.  I suspect that many
people would agree with "never" for the next time, if only because the
discussion itself causes more pain than the name.

In any event, I think it would be appropriate for JJ to make a list
ruling specifying the next time.
-- 
Aahz (aahz at pythoncraft.com)           <*>         http://www.pythoncraft.com/

"I disrespectfully agree."  --SJM

From jim at well.com  Thu Feb  1 15:43:23 2007
From: jim at well.com (jim stockford)
Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2007 06:43:23 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] Seeking February (and March and April) speakers
In-Reply-To: <8d1ac7aace7a0fe16c64089bae6089c9@well.com>
References: <BAY131-F21F46241E2798D1DC25841A0AD0@phx.gbl>
	<45B628D1.2060301@bigasterisk.com>
	<8d1ac7aace7a0fe16c64089bae6089c9@well.com>
Message-ID: <62903e6a15d3884932308e0cc9f20298@well.com>


sorry all, that was meant for drew.
too early and too busy, made (another) mistake.

On Feb 1, 2007, at 6:28 AM, jim stockford wrote:

>
> thanks again for volunteering.
> could you get me the following info for
> me to include in the meeting announcement:
>
> your name as you'd like it listed
> any affiliation you'd like to mention
> some salient bio (couple of sentences or so)
> a title for your presentation
> a couple or three sentences summarizing the topic
>
> many thanks,
> jim stockford
> 415 823 4590 my cellphone, call anytime
>
> i figure Dennis will go first, then you, then ken.
> can change the order if you wish.
> jim
>
>
> On Jan 23, 2007, at 7:25 AM, Drew Perttula wrote:
>
>> Stephen McInerney wrote:
>>> * Ken Seehart had expressed interest in presenting a snippet from
>>> January?
>>> There seemed to be support for aiming to regularly *briefly* present
>>> 1/2 snippets at the start of each meeting, before the main activity.
>>> (I forget did Drew mention something as well?)
>>
>> http://drewp.quickwitretort.com/2006/12/25/0
>>
>> I could demo that and explain how it works.
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Baypiggies mailing list
> Baypiggies at python.org
> To change your subscription options or unsubscribe:
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies
>


From tungwaiyip at yahoo.com  Thu Feb  1 03:02:06 2007
From: tungwaiyip at yahoo.com (Tung Wai Yip)
Date: Thu, 01 Feb 2007 10:02:06 +0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] [vote] admin list, jobs list, name change
In-Reply-To: <45BFF89F.4020009@sidorof.com>
References: <c41f67b90701301446l594508fbt8942d77fff0ce426@mail.gmail.com>
	<45BFF89F.4020009@sidorof.com>
Message-ID: <op.tm1rxsz2oiuain@smtp.mail.yahoo.com>

> admin: -1
> jobs: -1
>
> name change: -1

-1 for all.

I was without network for a few days and come back to find my mailbox  
overflow with votes and discussions. I only hope this will lead to some  
constructive end. I do suggest next time we use some sort of web polling  
instead of sending out tons of email to the list.

After this we should summarize the result into stated policy. This may not  
be a scientific poll but enough people have voiced their opinion and this  
may have already costed us a few membership. I'm no fans of a lot of  
policies. Everytime Aahz warned people on policy violation I found his  
seriousness a bit comical. But if lack of policy causes endless debate, I  
would much prefer it settled by stated policies.

I am mortified by the suggestion that we should have another name change  
vote in 2008 or 2009. We should consider the issue settled. Unless there  
are demonstrated change in membership profile or other catalytic event  
like Python has itself changed its name due to consideration of its  
offensiveness, we should not reopen the same issue again.

Furthermore I suggest we make it a policy to prohibit prolonged discussion  
on group policies. The admin should invite people to take such discussion  
off the list. The purpose is not to suppress different opinions but to  
prioritize this list for Python related discussions. If having a wiki on  
our web site would facilitate them then we should create one.

Sorry for adding to the already overloaded discussion.

Wai Yip

From jjinux at gmail.com  Thu Feb  1 23:11:55 2007
From: jjinux at gmail.com (Shannon -jj Behrens)
Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2007 14:11:55 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] [vote] name change
In-Reply-To: <20070201055610.BB2591E4006@bag.python.org>
References: <20070201055610.BB2591E4006@bag.python.org>
Message-ID: <c41f67b90702011411g47504ccah9d0ed4cc2a87b2f2@mail.gmail.com>

On 1/31/07, Marilyn Davis <marilyn at deliberate.com> wrote:
> ----- On Wednesday, January 31, 2007 DennisR at dair.com wrote:
>
> > At 05:24 PM 1/31/2007, Terry Carroll wrote:
> >>On Tue, 30 Jan 2007, Shannon -jj Behrens wrote:
> >>
> >> > To change the name of this mailing list, vote +1 and propose an alternate.
> >> > To keep the existing name, vote -1.
> >
> > -1 to change the name of *this* list
> > +1 to create a new name for list(s) we are about to add.
> >
> > [BayPiggies Announce] is just too long for a new list name
> > [BP Announce] or some short name is better for *new* list
>
> We haven't been invited to vote on that, although that was the proposal I put forward.  Thank you for remembering.
>
> Terry Carroll said:
>
> > +0
> >
> > I would like the group's name changed, and voted to do so last time, which
> > was not all that long ago.
> >
> > I think those of us who wanted the name changed should acknowledge that
> > we're substantially in the minority and accept it, at least for a
> > respectful amount of time.  Let's check in maybe a couple years after the
> > last vote on this.
>
> --
>
> Yes.  It was JJ, who is opposed to name-changing, who is polling the group about this, which wasn't anyone's proposal.  Sort of a slight-of-hand, mob-rule kind of trick.  But, I say this smiling, because it is amusing and not so important.  I just thought the pending length of the new lists' names was a good excuse to bend the name a little and appease us who are not content with the name.  But, clearly JJ didn't agree and put forward a losing proposal instead.
>
> It's all good,

I object to this characterization of my behavior.  My main objection
to the name change is due to the burden it places on all the members.
I never even seriously considered having two lists with different
prefixes.  Those who know me well know that I'm a stickler for
consistency, so I would naturally object to two lists, one called
baypiggies at python.org and the other bp-announce at python.org.

Where you are looking to see maliciousness, there is only my obsessive
compulsive need to make things consistent ;)

No offense taken, though.  Let's move on.

-jj

-- 
http://jjinux.blogspot.com/

From jjinux at gmail.com  Thu Feb  1 23:22:23 2007
From: jjinux at gmail.com (Shannon -jj Behrens)
Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2007 14:22:23 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] [vote] admin list, jobs list
In-Reply-To: <154395.58407.qm@web36109.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <154395.58407.qm@web36109.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <c41f67b90702011422v46a6cbd8k3999aba6867a6172@mail.gmail.com>

On 1/30/07, Praveen Kumar <pk1u at yahoo.com> wrote:
> > * Should we have an admin list? (+1 yes, -1 no)
> > * Should we have a separate jobs list? (+1 yes, -1 no)
>
> Don't care. But how about a separate list just for final event announcements (
> no discussions ) ?

That has already been agreed on. :)

Best Regards,
-jj

-- 
http://jjinux.blogspot.com/

From jjinux at gmail.com  Thu Feb  1 23:37:45 2007
From: jjinux at gmail.com (Shannon -jj Behrens)
Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2007 14:37:45 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] [vote] name change
In-Reply-To: <c41f67b90701301457y50b19e6bp6655300bcd365d3e@mail.gmail.com>
References: <c41f67b90701301457y50b19e6bp6655300bcd365d3e@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <c41f67b90702011437g159476bbxe3c8091a70bb790c@mail.gmail.com>

On 1/30/07, Shannon -jj Behrens <jjinux at gmail.com> wrote:
> Ok, let's address the mother of all arguments--the name change ;)
>
> Instructions:
> To change the name of this mailing list, vote +1 and propose an alternate.
> To keep the existing name, vote -1.
>
> Certain of our readers object to the term "baypiggies" due to the
> negative connotation.  Clearly, a better term might have been
> "baysmarties", but I digress ;)
>
> As we come to conclusion about the direction of this mailing list, it
> makes sense to bite the bullet and vote on whether to keep the name
> baypiggies.  As a historical note (Aahz can correct me), baypiggies
> stands for "Bay Area Python Interest Group", which makes sense.
>
> If we change the name baypiggies, we may (arguably) gain a name with a
> better connotation, but we risk irritating a lot of people who will
> have to update their mail filters and learn a new email address to
> send mail to.  Worst of all, there may be instances of this email
> address in the wild, and I'm not sure if I can set it up as an alias
> if we decide to go with a new name.
>
> Because of the severe drawbacks of this change, I'd like to be
> conservative and propose that we only change the name if we have 10 or
> more +1s and no more than half as many -1s.  I think requiring a two
> to one vote is fair given the advantages vs. the disadvantages of
> making this change.

Ok, thank you all for responding.  Thank you too for bearing with the
volume of email.  Here are the results:

  Yes:
    marilyn at deliberate.com
    carroll at tjc.com
    DennisR at dair.com (but only for the announce list)
  No:
    aahz at pythoncraft.com
    bdbaddog at gmail.com
    cvanarsdall at mvista.com
    dbs at abaca.com
    DennisR at dair.com
    doug.durham at yahoo.com
    ds-bp at sidorof.com
    eric at ericwalstad.com
    jjhartley at att.net
    kenobi at gmail.com
    krishna2 at krishna2.com
    mac at wireless.com
    mrbmahoney at gmail.com
    richardk at adax.com
    rstephe at sun.science.wayne.edu
    spmcinerney at hotmail.com
    tungwaiyip at yahoo.com
    webmaven at cox.net
    wescpy at gmail.com
    ylchobe at gmail.com

I think that constitutes clear consensus.  We will not be changing our
name.  As moderator of this mailing list, I'd like to close this
discussion for at least two years, which I feel is reasonable and
moderate.  However, I suspect that in the period of just two years,
it's unlikely that the consensus will have changed much.

Ok, now that we're done with that, let's get back to talking about Python!

Best Regards,
-jj

-- 
http://jjinux.blogspot.com/

From jjinux at gmail.com  Thu Feb  1 23:39:32 2007
From: jjinux at gmail.com (Shannon -jj Behrens)
Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2007 14:39:32 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] [vote] name change
In-Reply-To: <c41f67b90702011437g159476bbxe3c8091a70bb790c@mail.gmail.com>
References: <c41f67b90701301457y50b19e6bp6655300bcd365d3e@mail.gmail.com>
	<c41f67b90702011437g159476bbxe3c8091a70bb790c@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <c41f67b90702011439o5338a887o88a22441d896f7a6@mail.gmail.com>

By the way, on the subject of "bp-announce at python.org", I'm going to
pull that discussion into a new thread now that this poll has
completed.

Best Regards,
-jj

On 2/1/07, Shannon -jj Behrens <jjinux at gmail.com> wrote:
> On 1/30/07, Shannon -jj Behrens <jjinux at gmail.com> wrote:
> > Ok, let's address the mother of all arguments--the name change ;)
> >
> > Instructions:
> > To change the name of this mailing list, vote +1 and propose an alternate.
> > To keep the existing name, vote -1.
> >
> > Certain of our readers object to the term "baypiggies" due to the
> > negative connotation.  Clearly, a better term might have been
> > "baysmarties", but I digress ;)
> >
> > As we come to conclusion about the direction of this mailing list, it
> > makes sense to bite the bullet and vote on whether to keep the name
> > baypiggies.  As a historical note (Aahz can correct me), baypiggies
> > stands for "Bay Area Python Interest Group", which makes sense.
> >
> > If we change the name baypiggies, we may (arguably) gain a name with a
> > better connotation, but we risk irritating a lot of people who will
> > have to update their mail filters and learn a new email address to
> > send mail to.  Worst of all, there may be instances of this email
> > address in the wild, and I'm not sure if I can set it up as an alias
> > if we decide to go with a new name.
> >
> > Because of the severe drawbacks of this change, I'd like to be
> > conservative and propose that we only change the name if we have 10 or
> > more +1s and no more than half as many -1s.  I think requiring a two
> > to one vote is fair given the advantages vs. the disadvantages of
> > making this change.
>
> Ok, thank you all for responding.  Thank you too for bearing with the
> volume of email.  Here are the results:
>
>   Yes:
>     marilyn at deliberate.com
>     carroll at tjc.com
>     DennisR at dair.com (but only for the announce list)
>   No:
>     aahz at pythoncraft.com
>     bdbaddog at gmail.com
>     cvanarsdall at mvista.com
>     dbs at abaca.com
>     DennisR at dair.com
>     doug.durham at yahoo.com
>     ds-bp at sidorof.com
>     eric at ericwalstad.com
>     jjhartley at att.net
>     kenobi at gmail.com
>     krishna2 at krishna2.com
>     mac at wireless.com
>     mrbmahoney at gmail.com
>     richardk at adax.com
>     rstephe at sun.science.wayne.edu
>     spmcinerney at hotmail.com
>     tungwaiyip at yahoo.com
>     webmaven at cox.net
>     wescpy at gmail.com
>     ylchobe at gmail.com
>
> I think that constitutes clear consensus.  We will not be changing our
> name.  As moderator of this mailing list, I'd like to close this
> discussion for at least two years, which I feel is reasonable and
> moderate.  However, I suspect that in the period of just two years,
> it's unlikely that the consensus will have changed much.
>
> Ok, now that we're done with that, let's get back to talking about Python!
>
> Best Regards,
> -jj
>
> --
> http://jjinux.blogspot.com/
>


-- 
http://jjinux.blogspot.com/

From eric at ericwalstad.com  Fri Feb  2 00:20:09 2007
From: eric at ericwalstad.com (Eric Walstad)
Date: Thu, 01 Feb 2007 15:20:09 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] [vote] name change
In-Reply-To: <c41f67b90702011437g159476bbxe3c8091a70bb790c@mail.gmail.com>
References: <c41f67b90701301457y50b19e6bp6655300bcd365d3e@mail.gmail.com>
	<c41f67b90702011437g159476bbxe3c8091a70bb790c@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <45C275A9.7050502@ericwalstad.com>

And now for something completely different...
> let's get back to talking about Python!
...and there was much rejoicing.

Thanks JJ.
-E


From annaraven at gmail.com  Fri Feb  2 00:28:09 2007
From: annaraven at gmail.com (Anna Ravenscroft)
Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2007 15:28:09 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] PyGame anyone?
Message-ID: <cb361a610702011528g20f54ce2n5ee4feb90d529c1e@mail.gmail.com>

Does anyone here use PyGame? Is there a good tutorial for it online
somewhere? If not, what was your favorite way of learning more about it?

-- 
cordially,
Anna
--
It is fate, but call it Italy if it pleases you, Vicar!
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From jjinux at gmail.com  Fri Feb  2 00:39:02 2007
From: jjinux at gmail.com (Shannon -jj Behrens)
Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2007 15:39:02 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] [vote] admin list, jobs list
In-Reply-To: <c41f67b90701301446l594508fbt8942d77fff0ce426@mail.gmail.com>
References: <c41f67b90701301446l594508fbt8942d77fff0ce426@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <c41f67b90702011539k7ecbe3c4t47c3f153ab5abd52@mail.gmail.com>

On 1/30/07, Shannon -jj Behrens <jjinux at gmail.com> wrote:
> Ok, I'm getting mixed messages on two topics:
>
> * Should we have an admin list? (+1 yes, -1 no)
>
> * Should we have a separate jobs list? (+1 yes, -1 no)
>
> Well, this is a mailing list, so of course we'll disagree.
>
> If you want a separate admin list, speak now.  I'm personally against
> it.  However, if I get four or more +1's and no more than half as many
> -1's, I'll let myself be vetoed.
>
> As for the separate jobs list, some are arguing for it and some are
> arguing against it.  I'm really quite confused because the arguments
> are pretty much sounding the same on both sides.  Hence, my default
> decision is to drop it.  We can stick with a subject line prefix with
> the existing list.  If you really want the new list, speak now.
> Again, four or more +1's and no more than half as many -1's.

Ok, thank you all for voting, and thank you for your patience during
the flood of emails.  Here are the results:

Admin List:
  Yes:
    spmcinerney at hotmail.com
  No:
    carroll at tjc.com
    ds-bp at sidorof.com
    harrington_chad at hotmail.com
    tungwaiyip at yahoo.com
    wescpy at gmail.com

Jobs List:
  Yes:
    harrington_chad at hotmail.com
    spmcinerney at hotmail.com (to avoid clogging the main list)
  No:
    carroll at tjc.com
    ds-bp at sidorof.com
    tungwaiyip at yahoo.com
    wescpy at gmail.com

I think this constitutes clear consensus:  we will *not* have separate
jobs and admin lists.

Previously, we decided that we liked the idea of a moderated announce
list, as long as baypiggies at python.org also gets all the
announcements.

It is likely that we will adopt the use of an email prefix such as
"[jobs]" for job postings.  I may state this more formally later.

As list moderator, I'd like to close this discussion for a period of
at least two years.

Best Regards,
-jj

-- 
http://jjinux.blogspot.com/

From jjinux at gmail.com  Fri Feb  2 00:40:37 2007
From: jjinux at gmail.com (Shannon -jj Behrens)
Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2007 15:40:37 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] Fwd:  PyGame anyone?
In-Reply-To: <c41f67b90702011540x7cf998dev1fd3805ba101f30d@mail.gmail.com>
References: <cb361a610702011528g20f54ce2n5ee4feb90d529c1e@mail.gmail.com>
	<c41f67b90702011540x7cf998dev1fd3805ba101f30d@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <c41f67b90702011540u47eb8113yda1a276bacdd1703@mail.gmail.com>

On 2/1/07, Anna Ravenscroft <annaraven at gmail.com> wrote:
> Does anyone here use PyGame? Is there a good tutorial for it online
> somewhere? If not, what was your favorite way of learning more about it?

There's going to be a talk about it at PyCon, and I think there was a
tutorial at last year's PyCon.  It may be possible to find the
materials.

Best Regards,
-jj

--
http://jjinux.blogspot.com/

From aahz at pythoncraft.com  Fri Feb  2 00:46:29 2007
From: aahz at pythoncraft.com (Aahz)
Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2007 15:46:29 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] PyGame anyone?
In-Reply-To: <cb361a610702011528g20f54ce2n5ee4feb90d529c1e@mail.gmail.com>
References: <cb361a610702011528g20f54ce2n5ee4feb90d529c1e@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20070201234629.GA22575@panix.com>

On Thu, Feb 01, 2007, Anna Ravenscroft wrote:
>
> Does anyone here use PyGame? Is there a good tutorial for it online
> somewhere? If not, what was your favorite way of learning more about it?

http://pygame.org/wiki/tutorials

Don't bother with the new book "Game Programming: The L Line".
-- 
Aahz (aahz at pythoncraft.com)           <*>         http://www.pythoncraft.com/

"I disrespectfully agree."  --SJM

From DOBrien at LeapFrog.com  Fri Feb  2 01:12:26 2007
From: DOBrien at LeapFrog.com (Dennis O'Brien)
Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2007 16:12:26 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] PyGame anyone?
In-Reply-To: <cb361a610702011528g20f54ce2n5ee4feb90d529c1e@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <BE1590B3E7AEF54D9494467516DDC4DD5F7D3A@emw2k03ml04.LeapFrog.Local>

 

> Does anyone here use PyGame? Is there a good tutorial for it online
> somewhere? If not, what was your favorite way of learning more about
it?

ShowMeDo has some intro screencasts/tutorials on PyGame.
http://showmedo.com/videos/series?name=pythonMayerPyGameSeries
http://showmedo.com/videos/series?name=pythonArellanoPyGameSeries

If you are like me, you learn best by doing.  There is another 1 week
PyGame challenge coming up at PyWeek in April.
http://www.pyweek.org/
You can also look through some of the previous entries including source
code.
http://www.pyweek.org/3/entries/
http://www.pyweek.org/2/entries/

--Dennis

From marilyn at deliberate.com  Fri Feb  2 02:47:16 2007
From: marilyn at deliberate.com (Marilyn Davis)
Date: Thu, 01 Feb 2007 17:47:16 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] [vote] name change
Message-ID: <20070202014719.EE0AF1E4006@bag.python.org>

----- On Thursday, February 1, 2007 jjinux at gmail.com wrote:

> On 1/31/07, Marilyn Davis  wrote:
>> ----- On Wednesday, January 31, 2007 DennisR at dair.com wrote:
>>
>> > At 05:24 PM 1/31/2007, Terry Carroll wrote:
>> >>On Tue, 30 Jan 2007, Shannon -jj Behrens wrote:
>> >>
>> >> > To change the name of this mailing list, vote +1 and propose an alternate.
>> >> > To keep the existing name, vote -1.
>> >
>> > -1 to change the name of *this* list
>> > +1 to create a new name for list(s) we are about to add.
>> >
>> > [BayPiggies Announce] is just too long for a new list name
>> > [BP Announce] or some short name is better for *new* list
>>
>> We haven't been invited to vote on that, although that was the proposal I
> put forward.  Thank you for remembering.
>>
>> Terry Carroll said:
>>
>> > +0
>> >
>> > I would like the group's name changed, and voted to do so last time, which
>> > was not all that long ago.
>> >
>> > I think those of us who wanted the name changed should acknowledge that
>> > we're substantially in the minority and accept it, at least for a
>> > respectful amount of time.  Let's check in maybe a couple years after the
>> > last vote on this.
>>
>> --
>>
>> Yes.  It was JJ, who is opposed to name-changing, who is polling the group
> about this, which wasn't anyone's proposal.  Sort of a slight-of-hand,
> mob-rule kind of trick.  But, I say this smiling, because it is amusing and
> not so important.  I just thought the pending length of the new lists' names
> was a good excuse to bend the name a little and appease us who are not
> content with the name.  But, clearly JJ didn't agree and put forward a
> losing proposal instead.
>>
>> It's all good,
> 
> I object to this characterization of my behavior.  My main objection
> to the name change is due to the burden it places on all the members.
> I never even seriously considered having two lists with different
> prefixes.  Those who know me well know that I'm a stickler for
> consistency, so I would naturally object to two lists, one called
> baypiggies at python.org and the other bp-announce at python.org.
> 
> Where you are looking to see maliciousness, there is only my obsessive
> compulsive need to make things consistent ;)

No maliciousness was seen, but perhaps an error was made.  I don't know you very well, JJ, but I do know that I like you a lot and I'd bet good money that you are never malicious.

> 
> No offense taken, though.  Let's move on.

Thank you for knowing not to take offense.

The manuever that I am judging as a "trick" is, in fact, a standard trick for swaying people.  Using faulty democratic procedure is so common in our current culture that almost no one knows what real democratic procedure is, and what a trick is.

I'll explain, but first, regrettably, I have to defend myself:

----- On Thursday, February 1, 2007 aahz at pythoncraft.com wrote:

> On Wed, Jan 31, 2007, Marilyn Davis wrote:
>> ----- On Wednesday, January 31, 2007 DennisR at dair.com wrote:
>>>
>>> I think those of us who wanted the name changed should acknowledge
>>> that we're substantially in the minority and accept it, at least for
>>> a respectful amount of time.  Let's check in maybe a couple years
>>> after the last vote on this.
>>
>> Yes.  It was JJ, who is opposed to name-changing, who is polling
>> the group about this, which wasn't anyone's proposal.  Sort of a
>> slight-of-hand, mob-rule kind of trick.
> 
> Really?  Saying things like makes me wonder who exactly is playing the
> trick, so here are your own words:
> 
> http://mail.python.org/pipermail/baypiggies/2006-April/000376.html

No, that email is from the first poll and has nothing to do with this one.

But it does support my argument that the poll was a "trick", and a trick that you fell for, because you believed that I put the proposal forward.  I did not.

Again, I'm willing to believe that you made an unintentional mistake in claiming that you caught me in a lie.

It was a "trick" on me though, and on us.  Many people will read your email and label me a "liar" and never fully correct that false impression, no matter how much and how well I defend myself.

> 
> Although I'm no longer the official list admin, I still would like this
> list conducted with professional language, and using terms such as
> "slight-of-hand", "mob-rule", and "trick" is insulting, offensive, and
> inappropriate.

Truth is always appropriate.

Here was the proposal I did put forward.  I don't remember any real comments.  Please correct me if I'm wrong.

----- On Friday, January 26, 2007 marilyn at deliberate.com wrote:

> Hi,
> 
> I want to suggest that instead of baypiggies-xxxx at python.org, that the new
> lists' names be shortened to bp-xxxx at python.org for 2 reasons:
> 
> 1.  Long names take up too much space on the subject line.
> 
> 2.  Those of us who are uncomfortable with the "piggie" name, can think of
> ourselves as the Bay Python group.
> 
> Just to remind you, we ran a poll about the current name last year and 18 of
> 51 voters thought the name bad enough to warrant renaming the group.  That's
> 35%!  That's huge.
> 
> Here are results of that poll:
> 
> Number of Voters                   Subject  Poll Type          Result  Summary
> 
> 51                           Change name?  Public   [-1,1]     [18/29] 0.62:1
> 
> bp-xxxx at python.org would be a nice gesture to the 18 of us.
> 
> What do you think?
> 
> Marilyn

And JJ's response a few days later.  Please note that there was no mention of the real proposal.  It was vetoed without a word of explanation --- until today.  

But, instead of speaking to my proposal, we got this one, a sure loser:

----- On Tuesday, January 30, 2007 jjinux at gmail.com wrote:

> Ok, let's address the mother of all arguments--the name change ;)
> 
> Instructions:
> To change the name of this mailing list, vote +1 and propose an alternate.
> To keep the existing name, vote -1.
> 
> Certain of our readers object to the term "baypiggies" due to the
> negative connotation.  Clearly, a better term might have been
> "baysmarties", but I digress ;)
> 
> As we come to conclusion about the direction of this mailing list, it
> makes sense to bite the bullet and vote on whether to keep the name
> baypiggies.  As a historical note (Aahz can correct me), baypiggies
> stands for "Bay Area Python Interest Group", which makes sense.
> 
> If we change the name baypiggies, we may (arguably) gain a name with a
> better connotation, but we risk irritating a lot of people who will
> have to update their mail filters and learn a new email address to
> send mail to.  Worst of all, there may be instances of this email
> address in the wild, and I'm not sure if I can set it up as an alias
> if we decide to go with a new name.
> 
> Because of the severe drawbacks of this change, I'd like to be
> conservative and propose that we only change the name if we have 10 or
> more +1s and no more than half as many -1s.  I think requiring a two
> to one vote is fair given the advantages vs. the disadvantages of
> making this change.

And Stephen, this was *very* negatively proposed.  Why did you claim otherwise? A mistake? 

More importantly, no one who is in favor of changing the name had anything to do with this proposal.  This is not a democratic jesture.  It is a nip-this-in-the-bud gesture: to propose a poll that you are opposed to, when there has been no proposal or discussion from anyone else, and, furthermore, to propose it so negatively.

Yet, people on both sides of the issue have said things that indicate that they were sure that the poll was proposed by proponents, even by me.  It is precisely that is natural to assume that a poll would be put forward by proponents that it was a trick.

So, it was a trick, probably an unconscious trick, but a trick, on me, and on us, the group.

Democracy is a state of mind, a way of being.  When someone uses an ostensibly democratic procudure, it can be for one of two purposes, not both:

1.  To ascertain the collective will of the group.

2.  To sway the group.

The 2nd purpose is not democracy, but a trick on the people, a slight-of-hand, mob-rule trick.  That's what it is.

And in this case, because it made people believe that proponents had the bad taste to put forward another name-change proposal so soon, it was a doubly-dirty trick, resulting in a ban on talking about name-change.

Not good.

I'm very willing to accept that the two tricks played on us, and Stephen's mistake, were unconscious.  But I can't help but point out that accepting for oneself the label "piggy" would *exactly* have an influence toward making oneself unconscious and uncareful and unattentive.  I wish my Python-loving friends weren't required to be subject to such an influence to be in the club.

How about:  Bay Area Python Flying Circus?

OK.  Now I'm ready to go on.

JJ, again I thank you for taking the hard task of being under my critical eyeball.  I hope you continue to be unoffended.

Fondly,

Marilyn




From jjinux at gmail.com  Fri Feb  2 03:31:22 2007
From: jjinux at gmail.com (Shannon -jj Behrens)
Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2007 18:31:22 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] [vote] name change
In-Reply-To: <20070202014719.EE0AF1E4006@bag.python.org>
References: <20070202014719.EE0AF1E4006@bag.python.org>
Message-ID: <c41f67b90702011831j6866ee3ft4e9f24f26253f0a2@mail.gmail.com>

On 2/1/07, Marilyn Davis <marilyn at deliberate.com> wrote:
> ----- On Thursday, February 1, 2007 jjinux at gmail.com wrote:
>
> > On 1/31/07, Marilyn Davis  wrote:
> >> ----- On Wednesday, January 31, 2007 DennisR at dair.com wrote:
> >>
> >> > At 05:24 PM 1/31/2007, Terry Carroll wrote:
> >> >>On Tue, 30 Jan 2007, Shannon -jj Behrens wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >> > To change the name of this mailing list, vote +1 and propose an alternate.
> >> >> > To keep the existing name, vote -1.
> >> >
> >> > -1 to change the name of *this* list
> >> > +1 to create a new name for list(s) we are about to add.
> >> >
> >> > [BayPiggies Announce] is just too long for a new list name
> >> > [BP Announce] or some short name is better for *new* list
> >>
> >> We haven't been invited to vote on that, although that was the proposal I
> > put forward.  Thank you for remembering.
> >>
> >> Terry Carroll said:
> >>
> >> > +0
> >> >
> >> > I would like the group's name changed, and voted to do so last time, which
> >> > was not all that long ago.
> >> >
> >> > I think those of us who wanted the name changed should acknowledge that
> >> > we're substantially in the minority and accept it, at least for a
> >> > respectful amount of time.  Let's check in maybe a couple years after the
> >> > last vote on this.
> >>
> >> --
> >>
> >> Yes.  It was JJ, who is opposed to name-changing, who is polling the group
> > about this, which wasn't anyone's proposal.  Sort of a slight-of-hand,
> > mob-rule kind of trick.  But, I say this smiling, because it is amusing and
> > not so important.  I just thought the pending length of the new lists' names
> > was a good excuse to bend the name a little and appease us who are not
> > content with the name.  But, clearly JJ didn't agree and put forward a
> > losing proposal instead.
> >>
> >> It's all good,
> >
> > I object to this characterization of my behavior.  My main objection
> > to the name change is due to the burden it places on all the members.
> > I never even seriously considered having two lists with different
> > prefixes.  Those who know me well know that I'm a stickler for
> > consistency, so I would naturally object to two lists, one called
> > baypiggies at python.org and the other bp-announce at python.org.
> >
> > Where you are looking to see maliciousness, there is only my obsessive
> > compulsive need to make things consistent ;)
>
> No maliciousness was seen, but perhaps an error was made.  I don't know you very well, JJ, but I do know that I like you a lot and I'd bet good money that you are never malicious.
>
> >
> > No offense taken, though.  Let's move on.
>
> Thank you for knowing not to take offense.
>
> The manuever that I am judging as a "trick" is, in fact, a standard trick for swaying people.  Using faulty democratic procedure is so common in our current culture that almost no one knows what real democratic procedure is, and what a trick is.
>
> I'll explain, but first, regrettably, I have to defend myself:
>
> ----- On Thursday, February 1, 2007 aahz at pythoncraft.com wrote:
>
> > On Wed, Jan 31, 2007, Marilyn Davis wrote:
> >> ----- On Wednesday, January 31, 2007 DennisR at dair.com wrote:
> >>>
> >>> I think those of us who wanted the name changed should acknowledge
> >>> that we're substantially in the minority and accept it, at least for
> >>> a respectful amount of time.  Let's check in maybe a couple years
> >>> after the last vote on this.
> >>
> >> Yes.  It was JJ, who is opposed to name-changing, who is polling
> >> the group about this, which wasn't anyone's proposal.  Sort of a
> >> slight-of-hand, mob-rule kind of trick.
> >
> > Really?  Saying things like makes me wonder who exactly is playing the
> > trick, so here are your own words:
> >
> > http://mail.python.org/pipermail/baypiggies/2006-April/000376.html
>
> No, that email is from the first poll and has nothing to do with this one.
>
> But it does support my argument that the poll was a "trick", and a trick that you fell for, because you believed that I put the proposal forward.  I did not.

Again, don't mistake my ignorance for malice.  I posed that poll
because I knew some people were interested in a name change.  I didn't
have any specific, prior proposals in mind.  I surely didn't have that
email you quoted memorized.

I think "should we change our name" is a reasonable question.  I still
think having "baypiggies at python.org" and "bp-announce at python.org" is
both inconsistent and confusing.  Furthermore, as long as you yourself
continue to subscribe to this list, having a "bp-announce at python.org"
doesn't help you in your resolve to not call yourself a piggy.

> Again, I'm willing to believe that you made an unintentional mistake in claiming that you caught me in a lie.
>
> It was a "trick" on me though, and on us.  Many people will read your email and label me a "liar" and never fully correct that false impression, no matter how much and how well I defend myself.
>
> >
> > Although I'm no longer the official list admin, I still would like this
> > list conducted with professional language, and using terms such as
> > "slight-of-hand", "mob-rule", and "trick" is insulting, offensive, and
> > inappropriate.
>
> Truth is always appropriate.
>
> Here was the proposal I did put forward.  I don't remember any real comments.  Please correct me if I'm wrong.
>
> ----- On Friday, January 26, 2007 marilyn at deliberate.com wrote:
>
> > Hi,
> >
> > I want to suggest that instead of baypiggies-xxxx at python.org, that the new
> > lists' names be shortened to bp-xxxx at python.org for 2 reasons:
> >
> > 1.  Long names take up too much space on the subject line.
> >
> > 2.  Those of us who are uncomfortable with the "piggie" name, can think of
> > ourselves as the Bay Python group.
> >
> > Just to remind you, we ran a poll about the current name last year and 18 of
> > 51 voters thought the name bad enough to warrant renaming the group.  That's
> > 35%!  That's huge.
> >
> > Here are results of that poll:
> >
> > Number of Voters                   Subject  Poll Type          Result  Summary
> >
> > 51                           Change name?  Public   [-1,1]     [18/29] 0.62:1
> >
> > bp-xxxx at python.org would be a nice gesture to the 18 of us.
> >
> > What do you think?
> >
> > Marilyn
>
> And JJ's response a few days later.  Please note that there was no mention of the real proposal.  It was vetoed without a word of explanation --- until today.

It wasn't vetoed ;)  It was simply forgotten.

> But, instead of speaking to my proposal, we got this one, a sure loser:
>
> ----- On Tuesday, January 30, 2007 jjinux at gmail.com wrote:
>
> > Ok, let's address the mother of all arguments--the name change ;)
> >
> > Instructions:
> > To change the name of this mailing list, vote +1 and propose an alternate.
> > To keep the existing name, vote -1.
> >
> > Certain of our readers object to the term "baypiggies" due to the
> > negative connotation.  Clearly, a better term might have been
> > "baysmarties", but I digress ;)
> >
> > As we come to conclusion about the direction of this mailing list, it
> > makes sense to bite the bullet and vote on whether to keep the name
> > baypiggies.  As a historical note (Aahz can correct me), baypiggies
> > stands for "Bay Area Python Interest Group", which makes sense.
> >
> > If we change the name baypiggies, we may (arguably) gain a name with a
> > better connotation, but we risk irritating a lot of people who will
> > have to update their mail filters and learn a new email address to
> > send mail to.  Worst of all, there may be instances of this email
> > address in the wild, and I'm not sure if I can set it up as an alias
> > if we decide to go with a new name.
> >
> > Because of the severe drawbacks of this change, I'd like to be
> > conservative and propose that we only change the name if we have 10 or
> > more +1s and no more than half as many -1s.  I think requiring a two
> > to one vote is fair given the advantages vs. the disadvantages of
> > making this change.
>
> And Stephen, this was *very* negatively proposed.  Why did you claim otherwise? A mistake?

I did actually try to be objective in making that proposal.  I wasn't
trying to be negative.

> More importantly, no one who is in favor of changing the name had anything to do with this proposal.  This is not a democratic jesture.  It is a nip-this-in-the-bud gesture: to propose a poll that you are opposed to, when there has been no proposal or discussion from anyone else, and, furthermore, to propose it so negatively.
>
> Yet, people on both sides of the issue have said things that indicate that they were sure that the poll was proposed by proponents, even by me.

The poll was proposed by me in response to what I thought was on a lot
of people's minds.

> It is precisely that is natural to assume that a poll would be put forward by proponents that it was a trick.
>
> So, it was a trick, probably an unconscious trick, but a trick, on me, and on us, the group.
>
> Democracy is a state of mind, a way of being.  When someone uses an ostensibly democratic procudure, it can be for one of two purposes, not both:
>
> 1.  To ascertain the collective will of the group.
>
> 2.  To sway the group.

I should be clear about how I plan on moderating this list.  I don't
pretend to call it a democracy.  The readers will kill me if I pose a
poll on every little decision.  Rather, I said before that I'm a fan
of benevolent dictatorships.  I'm going to do what I feel the readers
want.  When I'm unsure of what they want, I'll pose a poll to figure
out what they want.  When I see rough consensus, I will go with the
consensus even if I don't agree.  I posed a question "should we change
the name BayPiggies" because I think that's a valid question, and I
wanted to know the answer.  I hadn't planned on putting forth a poll
on "bp-announce at python.org" vs. "baypiggies-announce at python.org"
because I think "bp-announce" is confusing and inconsistent.

> The 2nd purpose is not democracy, but a trick on the people, a slight-of-hand, mob-rule trick.  That's what it is.
>
> And in this case, because it made people believe that proponents had the bad taste to put forward another name-change proposal so soon, it was a doubly-dirty trick, resulting in a ban on talking about name-change.

Let me be clear, *I'm* the one who put forth the poll based on my
perceived notion of discontent in the crowd.

> Not good.
>
> I'm very willing to accept that the two tricks played on us, and Stephen's mistake, were unconscious.  But I can't help but point out that accepting for oneself the label "piggy" would *exactly* have an influence toward making oneself unconscious and uncareful and unattentive.

Actually, I don't label myself a piggy at all.  However, if I did
label myself a piggy, it would have a positive connotation, because
pigs are well known to be quite intelligent.

> I wish my Python-loving friends weren't required to be subject to such an influence to be in the club.
>
> How about:  Bay Area Python Flying Circus?
>
> OK.  Now I'm ready to go on.
>
> JJ, again I thank you for taking the hard task of being under my critical eyeball.  I hope you continue to be unoffended.

It comes with the job ;)  Name me one US president that wasn't
criticized, and I'll start feeling self conscious ;)

Now, can we move on?

Best Regards,
-jj

-- 
http://jjinux.blogspot.com/

From carroll at tjc.com  Fri Feb  2 03:37:19 2007
From: carroll at tjc.com (Terry Carroll)
Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2007 18:37:19 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Baypiggies] [vote] name change
In-Reply-To: <c41f67b90702011437g159476bbxe3c8091a70bb790c@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0702011833140.30671-100000@violet.rahul.net>

On Thu, 1 Feb 2007, Shannon -jj Behrens wrote:

> Ok, thank you all for responding.  Thank you too for bearing with the
> volume of email.  Here are the results:
> 
>   Yes:
>     ...
>     carroll at tjc.com
 
Just a point of clarity: I did not vote Yes; I was a +0; meant to 
be abstaining.  Sorry if that wasn't clear.

My comment accompanying my vote was that, although I would like a name 
change, we went through that vote last year, and those of us who wanted 
the name change should acknowledge we lost and move on.  My abstention was 
my way of doing that; a Yes vote would have been inconsistent with my 
position.

But, no harm, no foul.



From leowils at yahoo.com  Fri Feb  2 03:34:11 2007
From: leowils at yahoo.com (Leo Wils)
Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2007 18:34:11 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Baypiggies] jj - Please consider grouping and labeling Baypiggies
	Digests by subject line categories
In-Reply-To: <mailman.10602.1170369574.32030.baypiggies@python.org>
Message-ID: <20070202023411.74506.qmail@web31106.mail.mud.yahoo.com>


I have a suggestion for jj and others to consider.
This would work for me, and might work for others.  
The implementation is easy.  It has some of the 
advantages of separate mailing lists.

Presort the Baypiggies email into a small number of 
predefined categories. This can be done by prepending 
a category to each subject line, such as JOBS, ADMINISTRATION, 
UPCOMING MEETINGS, OTHER.  Include only one category 
in each digest mailing, with a subject line beginning with
BP_JOBS or something like that.  Sorting into categories 
by the first characters in the subject line is easy.

Subject line categories would allow me to more quickly 
find info about meetings, skip jobs listings, etc. I don't
care if I get email I'm not interested in, as long as 
it is easy to identify.  Clever people might find other 
ways to use subject line categories. 

- Leo 


 
____________________________________________________________________________________
Food fight? Enjoy some healthy debate 
in the Yahoo! Answers Food & Drink Q&A.
http://answers.yahoo.com/dir/?link=list&sid=396545367

From jjinux at gmail.com  Fri Feb  2 03:42:53 2007
From: jjinux at gmail.com (Shannon -jj Behrens)
Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2007 18:42:53 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] [vote] name change
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0702011833140.30671-100000@violet.rahul.net>
References: <c41f67b90702011437g159476bbxe3c8091a70bb790c@mail.gmail.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.44.0702011833140.30671-100000@violet.rahul.net>
Message-ID: <c41f67b90702011842u756927c6g8b1098e042ddf1a9@mail.gmail.com>

On 2/1/07, Terry Carroll <carroll at tjc.com> wrote:
> On Thu, 1 Feb 2007, Shannon -jj Behrens wrote:
>
> > Ok, thank you all for responding.  Thank you too for bearing with the
> > volume of email.  Here are the results:
> >
> >   Yes:
> >     ...
> >     carroll at tjc.com
>
> Just a point of clarity: I did not vote Yes; I was a +0; meant to
> be abstaining.  Sorry if that wasn't clear.
>
> My comment accompanying my vote was that, although I would like a name
> change, we went through that vote last year, and those of us who wanted
> the name change should acknowledge we lost and move on.  My abstention was
> my way of doing that; a Yes vote would have been inconsistent with my
> position.
>
> But, no harm, no foul.

My apologies.

-jj

-- 
http://jjinux.blogspot.com/

From wescpy at gmail.com  Fri Feb  2 03:51:06 2007
From: wescpy at gmail.com (wesley chun)
Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2007 18:51:06 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] ANN: (Intensive) Intro to Python training, Feb 7-9,
	San Francisco
In-Reply-To: <78b3a9580701121458se25c929od439075a565728ba@mail.gmail.com>
References: <78b3a9580701121458se25c929od439075a565728ba@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <78b3a9580702011851p2defeb96ofa6247f45d05e3b@mail.gmail.com>

greetings to all,

when i sent my reminder last month, we quickly filled to the maximum
capacity of 20 and registration was closed -- apologies to those of
you who tried to sign up afterwards.

today, i got the venue to move our course to larger facilities,
allowing up to 30 attendees, so i have reopened registration for those
who need to send someone to Python training ASAP, e.g., next week.
there are about 6 more spaces left. feel free to forward my original
message to anyone you know may find this useful. the schedule is
wed-fri, feb 7-9, 9a-5p daily.

thanks, and hope to see you soon!
-wesley


On 1/12/07, wesley chun <wescpy at gmail.com> wrote:
> FINAL REMINDER... as announced last night, we still have some seats left!
>
> What:   (Intensive) Intro to Python
> When:  February 7-9, 2007
> Where: San Francisco (SFO/San Bruno), CA, USA
> Web:    http://cyberwebconsulting.com (click "Python Training" link)
>
> Need to get up-to-speed with Python as quickly as possible?  Come join
> us in beautiful Northern California for another one of our rigorous
> Python training events! This is an intense introduction to Python
> directed towards those who have some proficiency in another high-level
> language. This course will take place in San Bruno right near the San
> Francisco International Airport.
>
> LOCALS: easy freeway (101/280/380) with lots of parking plus public
> transit (BART and CalTrain) access via the San Bruno stations, easily
> accessible from all parts of the Bay Area
>
> VISITORS: free shuttle to/from the airport, free high-speed internet,
> free breakfast and evening reception daily
>
> The cost is $1295 per attendee.  Discounts are
> available for multiple registrations as well as teachers/students.
> Registration will be opening soon for the next Intro and Advanced
> courses both taking place back-to-back in May 2007. See website for
> more details.

-- 
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
"Core Python Programming", Prentice Hall, (c)2007,2001
    http://corepython.com

wesley.j.chun :: wescpy-at-gmail.com
python training and technical consulting
cyberweb.consulting : silicon valley, ca
http://cyberwebconsulting.com

From aahz at pythoncraft.com  Fri Feb  2 05:52:47 2007
From: aahz at pythoncraft.com (Aahz)
Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2007 20:52:47 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] jj - Please consider grouping and labeling
	Baypiggies Digests by subject line categories
In-Reply-To: <20070202023411.74506.qmail@web31106.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <mailman.10602.1170369574.32030.baypiggies@python.org>
	<20070202023411.74506.qmail@web31106.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20070202045247.GA14725@panix.com>

On Thu, Feb 01, 2007, Leo Wils wrote:
>
> Presort the Baypiggies email into a small number of predefined
> categories. This can be done by prepending a category to each subject
> line, such as JOBS, ADMINISTRATION, UPCOMING MEETINGS, OTHER.
> Include only one category in each digest mailing, with a subject
> line beginning with BP_JOBS or something like that.  Sorting into
> categories by the first characters in the subject line is easy.

AFAIK, Mailman can't sort digests by subject.
-- 
Aahz (aahz at pythoncraft.com)           <*>         http://www.pythoncraft.com/

"I disrespectfully agree."  --SJM

From andywiggin at gmail.com  Fri Feb  2 07:32:18 2007
From: andywiggin at gmail.com (Andy Wiggin)
Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2007 22:32:18 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] PyGame anyone?
In-Reply-To: <cb361a610702011528g20f54ce2n5ee4feb90d529c1e@mail.gmail.com>
References: <cb361a610702011528g20f54ce2n5ee4feb90d529c1e@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <74e7428a0702012232h1427013ewea377d360853640a@mail.gmail.com>

On 2/1/07, Anna Ravenscroft <annaraven at gmail.com> wrote:
> Does anyone here use PyGame? Is there a good tutorial for it online
> somewhere? If not, what was your favorite way of learning more about it?
>

Occasionally for fun. I liked

   http://kai.vm.bytemark.co.uk/~piman/writing/sprite-tutorial.shtml
   http://pygame.org/wiki/tut_design?parent=tutorials

(Both links from the pygame tutorial page). My favorite way of
learning was using an image of my then-one-year-old daughter as a
sprite in my game. It made the testing much more fun.

-andy

From spmcinerney at hotmail.com  Fri Feb  2 07:25:39 2007
From: spmcinerney at hotmail.com (Stephen McInerney)
Date: Thu, 01 Feb 2007 22:25:39 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] [ADMIN] Don't disclose phone numbers or emails - list
	archives globally visible
Message-ID: <BAY131-F3574AA0D7938F73A2D8687A09B0@phx.gbl>


Just a reminder to not ever send your personal phone number (as someone did 
earlier)
or a large list of member emails (as JJ did) on this list, because these can 
be
automatically harvested by spammers and robots.

There are now very many sites publicly archiving this list,
the following gives 976 hits: 
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=baypiggies+archive
, last year it was only 1. Once this stuff gets out there it's impossible to 
undo it.

(Hope we can get back to the February talk organizing now.)

Regards,
Stephen

_________________________________________________________________
FREE online classifieds from Windows Live Expo ? buy and sell with people 
you know 
http://clk.atdmt.com/MSN/go/msnnkwex0010000001msn/direct/01/?href=http://expo.live.com?s_cid=Hotmail_tagline_12/06


From kenobi at gmail.com  Fri Feb  2 19:02:07 2007
From: kenobi at gmail.com (Rick Kwan)
Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2007 10:02:07 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] [ADMIN] Don't disclose phone numbers or emails -
	list archives globally visible
In-Reply-To: <BAY131-F3574AA0D7938F73A2D8687A09B0@phx.gbl>
References: <BAY131-F3574AA0D7938F73A2D8687A09B0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <f0aa69930702021002o5d896c47g34788a81057d0a97@mail.gmail.com>

On 2/1/07, Stephen McInerney <spmcinerney at hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> Just a reminder to not ever send your personal phone number (as someone did earlier)
> or a large list of member emails (as JJ did) on this list, because these can be
> automatically harvested by spammers and robots.

Oh. yeah.  I suspect JJ was following my observation that Usenet votes
usually published the e-mail addresses of how people voted so that
they can be sure they were tallied correctly (as was useful in one
case here). With a reliable on-line survey/vote pages, this may no
longer be necessary.

For web pages where I've had to publish contact info, I've gone to
using "(at)" in place of "@", just to slow down the spammers without
annoying the daylights out of more naive readers.

--Rick Kwan
  kenobi(at)gmail.com, or perhaps kenobi(at)gmail(dot)com (ugh)

> There are now very many sites publicly archiving this list, the following gives 976 hits:
> http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=baypiggies+archive
> , last year it was only 1. Once this stuff gets out there it's impossible to undo it.
>
> (Hope we can get back to the February talk organizing now.)
>
> Regards,
> Stephen

From jjinux at gmail.com  Fri Feb  2 20:56:07 2007
From: jjinux at gmail.com (Shannon -jj Behrens)
Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2007 11:56:07 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] [ADMIN] Don't disclose phone numbers or emails -
	list archives globally visible
In-Reply-To: <BAY131-F3574AA0D7938F73A2D8687A09B0@phx.gbl>
References: <BAY131-F3574AA0D7938F73A2D8687A09B0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <c41f67b90702021156j127b2249hc230d98e188c2e00@mail.gmail.com>

As much as I hate spam (having worked at an anti-spam company), let's
be realistic.  The email addresses I included were already visible
because they were sent to the mailing list. Consider
http://mail.python.org/pipermail/baypiggies/2007-January.txt.  I
really don't think spammers are fooled by the simple use of " at "
instead of "@".  Aahz, I'm open to your advice here.  To anyone I
recklessly put in spam's way, I apologize.

-jj

On 2/1/07, Stephen McInerney <spmcinerney at hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> Just a reminder to not ever send your personal phone number (as someone did
> earlier)
> or a large list of member emails (as JJ did) on this list, because these can
> be
> automatically harvested by spammers and robots.
>
> There are now very many sites publicly archiving this list,
> the following gives 976 hits:
> http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=baypiggies+archive
> , last year it was only 1. Once this stuff gets out there it's impossible to
> undo it.
>
> (Hope we can get back to the February talk organizing now.)
>
> Regards,
> Stephen
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> FREE online classifieds from Windows Live Expo ? buy and sell with people
> you know
> http://clk.atdmt.com/MSN/go/msnnkwex0010000001msn/direct/01/?href=http://expo.live.com?s_cid=Hotmail_tagline_12/06
>
>


-- 
http://jjinux.blogspot.com/

From jim at well.com  Sat Feb  3 18:32:37 2007
From: jim at well.com (jim stockford)
Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2007 09:32:37 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] February Meeting Thursday, the Eighth 7:30 PM to 9:00
Message-ID: <8ba7115955cb7cadba201dec07269e7e@well.com>



-------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------------------
BayPIGgies February Meeting

Thursday February 8, 2007

7:30 to 8:50 PM  Technical Program

-------------------------------------------------
7:30 moving chairs, greetings,

-------------------------------------------------
7:35
speaker: Dennis Reinhardt
organization: DAIR Computer Systems
materials URL (after presentation): http://www.spamai.com/present/
project URL: http://www.dialogdevil.com

Title: Three Generations of User Interface
Abstract:  I have implemented DialogDevil via three different user 
interfaces: (1) direct to Windows API via ctypes (2) wxPython, and (3) 
separate embedded html-based process.  The pros and cons of each 
approach from a developer's perspective will be discussed using metrics 
such as memory footprint, download size, flexibility, robustness, and 
visual styling.

-------------------------------------------------
8:00
Speaker: Drew Perttula
Bio: In past Baypiggies meetings, Drew has presented a video editor, an 
intro to pyrex, and a theater lighting control system. Currently, he 
spends most of his time working on films with ogres and princesses and 
on a web game startup.

Title: Visualizing python profile results
Abstract: I'll present a simple development tool that reads results 
from the python profiler and renders them into a web page. The page 
uses colored bars and tinted table cells to highlight additional 
information about the profile results.

-------------------------------------------------
8:25
Speaker: Ken Seehart
Title: Introduction to wxPython

-------------------------------------------------
8:50
announcements, discussion, hubbub

-------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------------------
Next Meetings Undetermined


From mrbmahoney at gmail.com  Tue Feb  6 01:14:58 2007
From: mrbmahoney at gmail.com (Brian Mahoney)
Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2007 16:14:58 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] Dinner Announcement - Thursday, Feb 8, 6 pm
Message-ID: <5538c19b0702051614l4beb5719o6f3ec7487ee44e@mail.gmail.com>

For Thursday, February 8, I can coordinate a pre-meeting
dinner in Mountain View, before the BayPIGgies meeting
at Google .

Restaurant reservations may be sent to my email until
Thursday afternoon (earlier is better). We eat family-style,
there are vegetarian and non-vegetarian dishes.  Cost around
$10 per person, including tax and tip. Bring cash, please.

Start dinner at 6pm and I will keep things moving so that we
finish and get everyone headed towards Google to
complete sign-in before the 7:30 meeting start.

The restaurant is Cafe Yulong in downtown Mountain View
(650) 960-1677
743 W Dana Street, 1/2 block from Castro where
Books, Inc is on the corner.
Parking lots all around, but downtown Mountain View
parking is still difficult.

It is a slightly out of the ordinary Chinese
restaurant.  This link has a downtown map and
additional information.
http://www.mountainviewca.net/restaurants/cafeyulong.html

I've made reservations under "Python" for 6pm
Thursday.

If you wish to join us for dinner please e-mail me
by 3 pm Thursday (earlier is better) so I may confirm
the headcount.

From walterv at gbbservices.com  Tue Feb  6 17:29:04 2007
From: walterv at gbbservices.com (Walter Vannini)
Date: Tue, 06 Feb 2007 08:29:04 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] ACCU meeting on Wednesday
Message-ID: <45C8ACD0.7050807@gbbservices.com>

IMPORTANT CHANGE:
Due to new PayPal security requirements, we are strongly
recommending that you preregister by RSVPing if you think
you might be attending. If you forget to preregister, PayPal
might not allow us to admit you. Also, all attendees will
now need to present some form of Photo ID.

To RSVP, please reply to this e-mail, address it to Ali ?ehreli
<acehreli at yahoo.com>, and add RSVP to the subject line.

When:      Wednesday, February 7, 2007
Topic:     Technical Management of Software Development
Speaker:   Alex Martelli
Time:      7:00pm
Where:     eBay Town Hall (next to PayPal/eBay)
                2161 North First St San Jose, CA 95131
Map:       <http://tinyurl.com/cdg5u/>
Cost:      Free
More Info: <http://www.accu-usa.org>

Managing software development projects can benefit from some
approaches that are rather different from most traditional
management techniques. Software developers operate with
their own particular mindset, culture and reward system. To
motivate and inspire a top programming team, one type of
ideal manager is a technical peer who can jump into the code
and work hands-on, together with the developers, to solve
thorny problems. Such technical involvement can keep a
project moving forward and help the manager build
credibility and trust within the team.

In this talk, Alex Martelli discusses some common management
myths, and shares some immediately useful advice for anyone
involved in managing software development projects.

For those who want to read ahead (or listen ahead) an early
version of this talk can be found at
<http://osc.gigavox.com/shows/detail1372.html>. The ACCU
talk will have plenty of new material: quoting Alex "I have
changed the talk itself quite a bit since that podcast was
recorded in July".

Alex Martelli is Uber Technical Lead at Google, Inc. Alex
holds a laurea in Ingegneria Elettronica from Bologna
University. He wrote Python in a Nutshell, and also
co-edited the Python Cookbook. He's a member of the Python
Software Foundation, and won the 2002 Activators' Choice
Award and the 2006 Frank Willison Memorial Award.

Alex spent 8 years with IBM Research (earning three
Outstanding Technical Achievement Awards), 12 years as
senior consultant (Win32, Fortran, C, C++, Java, etc) at
Think3 inc, and 3 years as a Python freelance consultant
(mostly for AB Strakt). He has taught Programming, Numerical
Computing, and Object Oriented Design at Ferrara University
and other venues.

--- Upcoming ACCU talks ---

March 21, 2007
Kevlin Henney
"Four (More) Patterns You Should Know"

-----

The ACCU meets monthly. To suggest topics and speakers
please email Walter Vannini via walterv at gbbservices.com

Walter Vannini
<http://www.accu-usa.org/>
<http://www.gbbservices.com/>





From tpc at cryptic.com  Tue Feb  6 18:52:17 2007
From: tpc at cryptic.com (tpc at cryptic.com)
Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2007 09:52:17 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] ACCU meeting on Wednesday
In-Reply-To: <45C8ACD0.7050807@gbbservices.com>
References: <45C8ACD0.7050807@gbbservices.com>
Message-ID: <bae1efdf0702060952g7ed5681cx89f80eb9e92907b3@mail.gmail.com>

On 2/6/07, Walter Vannini <walterv at gbbservices.com> wrote:
>
> IMPORTANT CHANGE:
> Due to new PayPal security requirements, we are strongly
> recommending that you preregister by RSVPing if you think
> you might be attending. If you forget to preregister, PayPal
> might not allow us to admit you. Also, all attendees will
> now need to present some form of Photo ID.
>
> To RSVP, please reply to this e-mail, address it to Ali ?ehreli
> <acehreli at yahoo.com>, and add RSVP to the subject line.
>
> When:      Wednesday, February 7, 2007
> Topic:     Technical Management of Software Development
> Speaker:   Alex Martelli
> Time:      7:00pm
> Where:     eBay Town Hall (next to PayPal/eBay)
>                 2161 North First St San Jose, CA 95131
> Map:       <http://tinyurl.com/cdg5u/>
> Cost:      Free
> More Info: <http://www.accu-usa.org>



hey guys, I wanted to ask if anyone is interested in carpooling to the Alex
Martelli talk tomorrow from the East Bay.  I normally don't have time to
make the one hour journey, but I took a look at the topic and description
and decided this talk promises to be something special.  I hope to leave
from the Berkeley/Oakland area around 5:45pm.
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From lhawthorn at google.com  Tue Feb  6 19:42:56 2007
From: lhawthorn at google.com (Leslie Hawthorn)
Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2007 10:42:56 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] Please register on the wiki
Message-ID: <4869cee70702061042q774d76c9j7db2f6ff1fca0378@mail.gmail.com>

Hello everyone,

If you will be attending the upcoming Baypiggies meeting on Thursday,
February 8th, please sign up on the wiki no later than 3 PM tomorrow,
Wednesday, May 7th.  http://wiki.python.org/moin/BayPiggiesGoogleMeetings

We will also need the help of a volunteer to tape the presentation. Please
contact me off-list if you are interested in helping.

Best,
LH

-- 
Leslie Hawthorn
Open Source Program Office
Google Inc.
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From jim at well.com  Wed Feb  7 01:59:44 2007
From: jim at well.com (jim stockford)
Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2007 16:59:44 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] End topic for this coming meeting
Message-ID: <34f95723b0f325efd51441a908bed483@well.com>



    Let's spend the final ten or so minutes of this
coming meeting figuring out who can report on
their reaction to PyCon--what speakers will you
see, will you be willing to summarize and opine.
jim



From spmcinerney at hotmail.com  Wed Feb  7 02:14:12 2007
From: spmcinerney at hotmail.com (Stephen McInerney)
Date: Tue, 06 Feb 2007 17:14:12 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] End topic for this coming meeting/ March PyCon
	talk planning
In-Reply-To: <34f95723b0f325efd51441a908bed483@well.com>
Message-ID: <BAY131-F331482ABD1E4AF4681E5EDA09E0@phx.gbl>


I was going to suggest we look at the PyCon program
( http://us.pycon.org/TX2007/HomePage )
figure out what are the must-hear talks,
and try to get a list of volunteer names of
people who promise to give an overview of
them at the March meeting.

Regards,
Stephen



>From: jim stockford <jim at well.com>
>To: baypiggies at python.org
>Subject: [Baypiggies] End topic for this coming meeting
>Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2007 16:59:44 -0800
>
>
>
>     Let's spend the final ten or so minutes of this
>coming meeting figuring out who can report on
>their reaction to PyCon--what speakers will you
>see, will you be willing to summarize and opine.
>jim

_________________________________________________________________
Turn searches into helpful donations. Make your search count. 
http://click4thecause.live.com/search/charity/default.aspx?source=hmemtagline_donation&FORM=WLMTAG


From DennisR at dair.com  Wed Feb  7 02:21:25 2007
From: DennisR at dair.com (Dennis Reinhardt)
Date: Tue, 06 Feb 2007 17:21:25 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] End topic for this coming meeting
In-Reply-To: <34f95723b0f325efd51441a908bed483@well.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20070206171154.00be5950@localhost>

At 04:59 PM 2/6/2007, jim stockford wrote:
>     Let's spend the final ten or so minutes of this
>coming meeting figuring out who can report on
>their reaction to PyCon--what speakers will you
>see, will you be willing to summarize and opine.
>jim

Do I understand that there is no time for announcements?  Can we try doing 
announcements differently?

I suggest for announcements which need to be made at the meeting, that they 
be written up and distributed via handouts laid on a table.  If people need 
to contact you, put your picture on the handout.

regards, Dennis
  ---------------------------------
| Dennis    | DennisR at dair.com    |
| Reinhardt | http://www.dair.com |
  ---------------------------------


From jjinux at gmail.com  Wed Feb  7 04:45:26 2007
From: jjinux at gmail.com (Shannon -jj Behrens)
Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2007 19:45:26 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] End topic for this coming meeting
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20070206171154.00be5950@localhost>
References: <34f95723b0f325efd51441a908bed483@well.com>
	<5.1.0.14.0.20070206171154.00be5950@localhost>
Message-ID: <c41f67b90702061945s4ce3c04frad7fc9f8a329021@mail.gmail.com>

On 2/6/07, Dennis Reinhardt <DennisR at dair.com> wrote:
> At 04:59 PM 2/6/2007, jim stockford wrote:
> >     Let's spend the final ten or so minutes of this
> >coming meeting figuring out who can report on
> >their reaction to PyCon--what speakers will you
> >see, will you be willing to summarize and opine.
> >jim
>
> Do I understand that there is no time for announcements?  Can we try doing
> announcements differently?
>
> I suggest for announcements which need to be made at the meeting, that they
> be written up and distributed via handouts laid on a table.  If people need
> to contact you, put your picture on the handout.

It seems wasteful to waste paper when we have this mailing list and
we're actually in a room together, but that's just me :-/

-jj

-- 
http://jjinux.blogspot.com/

From jim at well.com  Wed Feb  7 04:57:27 2007
From: jim at well.com (jim stockford)
Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2007 19:57:27 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] End topic for this coming meeting
In-Reply-To: <c41f67b90702061945s4ce3c04frad7fc9f8a329021@mail.gmail.com>
References: <34f95723b0f325efd51441a908bed483@well.com>
	<5.1.0.14.0.20070206171154.00be5950@localhost>
	<c41f67b90702061945s4ce3c04frad7fc9f8a329021@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <0ad4e3c11e40a7245c9c04375a556901@well.com>


    let's have announcements at the end, including
announcements of who's going to PyCon and is
willing to report at the March meeting.

On Feb 6, 2007, at 7:45 PM, Shannon -jj Behrens wrote:

> On 2/6/07, Dennis Reinhardt <DennisR at dair.com> wrote:
>> At 04:59 PM 2/6/2007, jim stockford wrote:
>>>     Let's spend the final ten or so minutes of this
>>> coming meeting figuring out who can report on
>>> their reaction to PyCon--what speakers will you
>>> see, will you be willing to summarize and opine.
>>> jim
>>
>> Do I understand that there is no time for announcements?  Can we try 
>> doing
>> announcements differently?
>>
>> I suggest for announcements which need to be made at the meeting, 
>> that they
>> be written up and distributed via handouts laid on a table.  If 
>> people need
>> to contact you, put your picture on the handout.
>
> It seems wasteful to waste paper when we have this mailing list and
> we're actually in a room together, but that's just me :-/
>
> -jj
>
> -- 
> http://jjinux.blogspot.com/
> _______________________________________________
> Baypiggies mailing list
> Baypiggies at python.org
> To change your subscription options or unsubscribe:
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies
>


From donnamsnow at gmail.com  Wed Feb  7 05:34:40 2007
From: donnamsnow at gmail.com (Donna Snow)
Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2007 20:34:40 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] End topic for this coming meeting
In-Reply-To: <0ad4e3c11e40a7245c9c04375a556901@well.com>
References: <34f95723b0f325efd51441a908bed483@well.com>
	<5.1.0.14.0.20070206171154.00be5950@localhost>
	<c41f67b90702061945s4ce3c04frad7fc9f8a329021@mail.gmail.com>
	<0ad4e3c11e40a7245c9c04375a556901@well.com>
Message-ID: <baf0d46b0702062034p366535f5pdc0952393adc922d@mail.gmail.com>

I personally liked Mapping and Random Access.. I'm a social type
person and like the opportunity to hear what other people are doing
and then milling about after the meeting.. being rushed out of the
room at the end is a bit disconcerting...

We should allow for at least 15 minutes + each meeting (either before
or after) for schmoozin'..

Best Regards,
Donna M. Snow, Owner
C Squared Enterprises
illuminate your web
http://www.csquaredtech.com

On 2/6/07, jim stockford <jim at well.com> wrote:
>
>     let's have announcements at the end, including
> announcements of who's going to PyCon and is
> willing to report at the March meeting.
>
> On Feb 6, 2007, at 7:45 PM, Shannon -jj Behrens wrote:
>
> > On 2/6/07, Dennis Reinhardt <DennisR at dair.com> wrote:
> >> At 04:59 PM 2/6/2007, jim stockford wrote:
> >>>     Let's spend the final ten or so minutes of this
> >>> coming meeting figuring out who can report on
> >>> their reaction to PyCon--what speakers will you
> >>> see, will you be willing to summarize and opine.
> >>> jim
> >>
> >> Do I understand that there is no time for announcements?  Can we try
> >> doing
> >> announcements differently?
> >>
> >> I suggest for announcements which need to be made at the meeting,
> >> that they
> >> be written up and distributed via handouts laid on a table.  If
> >> people need
> >> to contact you, put your picture on the handout.
> >
> > It seems wasteful to waste paper when we have this mailing list and
> > we're actually in a room together, but that's just me :-/
> >
> > -jj
> >
> > --
> > http://jjinux.blogspot.com/
> > _______________________________________________
> > Baypiggies mailing list
> > Baypiggies at python.org
> > To change your subscription options or unsubscribe:
> > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies
> >
>
> _______________________________________________
> Baypiggies mailing list
> Baypiggies at python.org
> To change your subscription options or unsubscribe:
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies
>

From jim at well.com  Wed Feb  7 15:41:58 2007
From: jim at well.com (jim stockford)
Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2007 06:41:58 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] End topic for this coming meeting
In-Reply-To: <baf0d46b0702062034p366535f5pdc0952393adc922d@mail.gmail.com>
References: <34f95723b0f325efd51441a908bed483@well.com>
	<5.1.0.14.0.20070206171154.00be5950@localhost>
	<c41f67b90702061945s4ce3c04frad7fc9f8a329021@mail.gmail.com>
	<0ad4e3c11e40a7245c9c04375a556901@well.com>
	<baf0d46b0702062034p366535f5pdc0952393adc922d@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <506f3f152895c8bed3f15b53d4ab4d76@well.com>


    point taken, and thanks for the note.
    let's see who really shows up to talk; if one
speaker is missing, we'll have plenty of time
for schmoozin'.


On Feb 6, 2007, at 8:34 PM, Donna Snow wrote:

> I personally liked Mapping and Random Access.. I'm a social type
> person and like the opportunity to hear what other people are doing
> and then milling about after the meeting.. being rushed out of the
> room at the end is a bit disconcerting...
>
> We should allow for at least 15 minutes + each meeting (either before
> or after) for schmoozin'..
>
> Best Regards,
> Donna M. Snow, Owner
> C Squared Enterprises
> illuminate your web
> http://www.csquaredtech.com
>
> On 2/6/07, jim stockford <jim at well.com> wrote:
>>
>>     let's have announcements at the end, including
>> announcements of who's going to PyCon and is
>> willing to report at the March meeting.
>>
>> On Feb 6, 2007, at 7:45 PM, Shannon -jj Behrens wrote:
>>
>> > On 2/6/07, Dennis Reinhardt <DennisR at dair.com> wrote:
>> >> At 04:59 PM 2/6/2007, jim stockford wrote:
>> >>>     Let's spend the final ten or so minutes of this
>> >>> coming meeting figuring out who can report on
>> >>> their reaction to PyCon--what speakers will you
>> >>> see, will you be willing to summarize and opine.
>> >>> jim
>> >>
>> >> Do I understand that there is no time for announcements?  Can we 
>> try
>> >> doing
>> >> announcements differently?
>> >>
>> >> I suggest for announcements which need to be made at the meeting,
>> >> that they
>> >> be written up and distributed via handouts laid on a table.  If
>> >> people need
>> >> to contact you, put your picture on the handout.
>> >
>> > It seems wasteful to waste paper when we have this mailing list and
>> > we're actually in a room together, but that's just me :-/
>> >
>> > -jj
>> >
>> > --
>> > http://jjinux.blogspot.com/
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > Baypiggies mailing list
>> > Baypiggies at python.org
>> > To change your subscription options or unsubscribe:
>> > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies
>> >
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Baypiggies mailing list
>> Baypiggies at python.org
>> To change your subscription options or unsubscribe:
>> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies
>>
>


From walterv at gbbservices.com  Wed Feb  7 19:27:19 2007
From: walterv at gbbservices.com (Walter Vannini)
Date: Wed, 07 Feb 2007 10:27:19 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] ACCU meeting tonight
Message-ID: <45CA1A07.60902@gbbservices.com>

IMPORTANT CHANGE:
Due to new PayPal security requirements, we are strongly
recommending that you preregister by RSVPing if you think
you might be attending. If you forget to preregister, PayPal
might not allow us to admit you. Also, all attendees will
now need to present some form of Photo ID.

To RSVP, please reply to this e-mail, address it to Ali ?ehreli
<acehreli at yahoo.com>, and add RSVP to the subject line.

When:      Wednesday, February 7, 2007
Topic:     Technical Management of Software Development
Speaker:   Alex Martelli
Time:      7:00pm
Where:     eBay Town Hall (next to PayPal/eBay)
                2161 North First St San Jose, CA 95131
Map:       <http://tinyurl.com/cdg5u/>
Cost:      Free
More Info: <http://www.accu-usa.org>

Managing software development projects can benefit from some
approaches that are rather different from most traditional
management techniques. Software developers operate with
their own particular mindset, culture and reward system. To
motivate and inspire a top programming team, one type of
ideal manager is a technical peer who can jump into the code
and work hands-on, together with the developers, to solve
thorny problems. Such technical involvement can keep a
project moving forward and help the manager build
credibility and trust within the team.

In this talk, Alex Martelli discusses some common management
myths, and shares some immediately useful advice for anyone
involved in managing software development projects.

For those who want to read ahead (or listen ahead) an early
version of this talk can be found at
<http://osc.gigavox.com/shows/detail1372.html>. The ACCU
talk will have plenty of new material: quoting Alex "I have
changed the talk itself quite a bit since that podcast was
recorded in July".

Alex Martelli is Uber Technical Lead at Google, Inc. Alex
holds a laurea in Ingegneria Elettronica from Bologna
University. He wrote Python in a Nutshell, and also
co-edited the Python Cookbook. He's a member of the Python
Software Foundation, and won the 2002 Activators' Choice
Award and the 2006 Frank Willison Memorial Award.

Alex spent 8 years with IBM Research (earning three
Outstanding Technical Achievement Awards), 12 years as
senior consultant (Win32, Fortran, C, C++, Java, etc) at
Think3 inc, and 3 years as a Python freelance consultant
(mostly for AB Strakt). He has taught Programming, Numerical
Computing, and Object Oriented Design at Ferrara University
and other venues.

--- Upcoming ACCU talks ---

March 21, 2007
Kevlin Henney
"Four (More) Patterns You Should Know"

-----

The ACCU meets monthly. To suggest topics and speakers
please email Walter Vannini via walterv at gbbservices.com

Walter Vannini
<http://www.accu-usa.org/>
<http://www.gbbservices.com/>







From tpc at cryptic.com  Wed Feb  7 19:22:29 2007
From: tpc at cryptic.com (tpc at cryptic.com)
Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2007 10:22:29 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] Carpooling to the ACCU meeting tonight from the East
	Bay
Message-ID: <bae1efdf0702071022q7ddc0c6blbacfb140440e11b4@mail.gmail.com>

On 2/6/07, Walter Vannini <walterv at gbbservices.com> wrote:
>
> IMPORTANT CHANGE:
> Due to new PayPal security requirements, we are strongly
> recommending that you preregister by RSVPing if you think
> you might be attending. If you forget to preregister, PayPal
> might not allow us to admit you. Also, all attendees will
> now need to present some form of Photo ID.
>
> To RSVP, please reply to this e-mail, address it to Ali ?ehreli
> <acehreli at yahoo.com>, and add RSVP to the subject line.
>
> When:      Wednesday, February 7, 2007
> Topic:     Technical Management of Software Development
> Speaker:   Alex Martelli
> Time:      7:00pm
> Where:     eBay Town Hall (next to PayPal/eBay)
>                 2161 North First St San Jose, CA 95131
> Map:       <http://tinyurl.com/cdg5u/>
> Cost:      Free
> More Info: <http://www.accu-usa.org>



hey guys, I wanted to ask if anyone is interested in carpooling to the Alex
Martelli talk tonight from the East Bay.  I normally don't have time to make
the one hour journey, but I took a look at the topic and description and
decided this talk promises to be something special.  I hope to leave from
the Berkeley/Oakland area around 5:45pm.
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From tpc at cryptic.com  Thu Feb  8 00:05:01 2007
From: tpc at cryptic.com (tpc at cryptic.com)
Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2007 15:05:01 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] ACCU meeting tonight
In-Reply-To: <45CA1A07.60902@gbbservices.com>
References: <45CA1A07.60902@gbbservices.com>
Message-ID: <bae1efdf0702071505m52623e10mac4ebc3db11a0380@mail.gmail.com>

On 2/7/07, Walter Vannini <walterv at gbbservices.com> wrote:
>
> IMPORTANT CHANGE:
> Due to new PayPal security requirements, we are strongly
> recommending that you preregister by RSVPing if you think
> you might be attending. If you forget to preregister, PayPal
> might not allow us to admit you. Also, all attendees will
> now need to present some form of Photo ID.
>
> To RSVP, please reply to this e-mail, address it to Ali ?ehreli
> <acehreli at yahoo.com>, and add RSVP to the subject line.
>
> When:      Wednesday, February 7, 2007
> Topic:     Technical Management of Software Development
> Speaker:   Alex Martelli
> Time:      7:00pm
> Where:     eBay Town Hall (next to PayPal/eBay)
>                 2161 North First St San Jose, CA 95131
> Map:       <http://tinyurl.com/cdg5u/>
> Cost:      Free
> More Info: <http://www.accu-usa.org>


hey guys, I wanted to ask if anyone is interested in carpooling to the Alex
Martelli talk this evening from the East Bay.  I normally don't have time to
make the one hour journey, but I took a look at the topic and description
and decided this talk promises to be something special.  I hope to leave
from the Berkeley/Oakland area around 5:45pm.
-------------- next part --------------
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From marilyn at deliberate.com  Thu Feb  8 21:12:46 2007
From: marilyn at deliberate.com (Marilyn Davis)
Date: Thu, 08 Feb 2007 12:12:46 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] New PyOP List - wasRe:  [vote] name change
Message-ID: <20070208201249.344C91E4008@bag.python.org>

JJ said:
> 
> Again, don't mistake my ignorance for malice.  I posed that poll

I know.  I know you are not malicious.  But please nullify that mis-poll as a mistake.  We already took that poll in a carefully legitimate way and the previous poll should be respected: 35% think the name is bad enough to warrant changing.  A group of marketeers would take that number very seriously.  But we are technical people.

The up-side is that the incident gave me the opportunity to teach something about democracy, which is my #1 calling:  http://www.deliberate.com  

Teaching Python, and whatever other little gigs I get, support the democracy work.

Please understand and not take offense, that I can't, voluntarily, be subject to a dictator, no matter how benevolent, charming and good.

So I started another email list/group: PyOP "Python on the Peninsula".  As soon as you get the announce list happening, I'll be leaving Baypiggies, although I do expect my participation in the meetings to grow when I'm not weighed down by the name, "piggies".

This happened:

----- On Tuesday, February 6, 2007 brad at python.org wrote:

> At 12:25 PM -0800 2/6/07, Marilyn Davis wrote:
> 
>>  Hello Python.org Postmasters,
>>
>>  Would you please make a pyop at python.org email list?
> 
> Done.
> 
>>  It will be a democratically-administrated email list for ???*???Python on
>>  the Peninsula???*??? -- the SF Bay Peninsula.
> 
> Noted in the short description of the list.
> 
>>  Baypiggies is the  whole SF Bay area, and I hope/expect the list to
>>  be populated with people who attend the live meetings.  Everyone is
>>  welcome, of course.  But to earn voting rights, you must have
>>  attended one meeting in the last 3 months, or 2 meetings in the last year.
>>
>>  I hope a few democratic rules of order are ok in a python.org list.
> 
> So far as I know, so long as the rules don't discriminate with
> regards to race, religion, creed, gender, sexual preferences, etc...
> you should be able to run your list pretty much however you want.
> 
>>  I'll be the first admin, but I hope there is enough enthusiasm that
>>  someone else will want to be the admin in a year.
> 
> Fair enough.
> 
> I've pre-filled in a few things on the list, including an
> introductory description which has a few standard list policies
> regarding the archives, etc....  If you want to change these, that's
[rest clipped]

I have a big deadline on Monday so I don't have much time for fiddling with this right now but I'll try to get it all set next week with some starting rules.

So that you understand my action I'll explain that, as a democracy activist, in league with Zapatistas and other democracy activists. I see that the threatening demise of the planet is the war between corporate-governmental-military monster and democracy/people: a war between the dominant/submissant model and the cooperative model. Being part of this struggle, I feel I am betraying the cause and the earth if I willingly participate where democratic forms are disrespected ... and then there's the name thing.

When meeting organizers are looking for help or speakers, if they raise their requests to the new announce list, I'll respond if I can, but I will be participating as a member of PyOP.

For starters I will not feed the announce list into the PyOP list so that, if anyone wants to belong to both lists, there will not be duplicates.  And since this baypiggies list does not allow cross-posting, there will not be any perceived problems from a cross-post with this list. Cross-posts on the PyOP list are ok with me as long as the cross-poster takes responsibility to keep the thread making sense.  But if there are other members who feel differently, a decision reached by democratic process will override any defaults I set up.

I want to point out that when Guido says he's Python's benevolent dictator, it's a bit silly because Python is just a computer language. No matter how dynamic, intelligent and fun Python is, it is not a being with a mind of her own, dignity, or a sense of responsibilty.  Guido invented Python and holds the original vision and the responsibility to protect it from turning into a committee-led mish-mash.  In reality, he is "protector" of the language.  Hard job.

But, as a person, voluntarily in community with other people, it is important to me that I belong to a committee-led mish-mash.

I hope a few people join me, because I do want to be in ecommunity with other Python-lovers.

See you tonight,

Marilyn






From jjinux at gmail.com  Thu Feb  8 23:46:07 2007
From: jjinux at gmail.com (Shannon -jj Behrens)
Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2007 14:46:07 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] New PyOP List - wasRe: [vote] name change
In-Reply-To: <20070208201249.344C91E4008@bag.python.org>
References: <20070208201249.344C91E4008@bag.python.org>
Message-ID: <c41f67b90702081446h255f65fbs11d0f5e26ecb0fa4@mail.gmail.com>

On 2/8/07, Marilyn Davis <marilyn at deliberate.com> wrote:
> JJ said:
> >
> > Again, don't mistake my ignorance for malice.  I posed that poll
>
> I know.  I know you are not malicious.  But please nullify that mis-poll as a mistake.

It's true that I mistook what you, a member of the list, were
interested in.  Still, the poll served to tell me what the readership
thought.  It answered my question.  What's to nullify about that?

> We already took that poll in a carefully legitimate way and the previous poll should be respected: 35% think the name is bad enough to warrant changing.  A group of marketeers would take that number very seriously.  But we are technical people.

Fair enough.  Unfortunately, I can't violate the will of the 65% majority.

> The up-side is that the incident gave me the opportunity to teach something about democracy, which is my #1 calling:  http://www.deliberate.com
>
> Teaching Python, and whatever other little gigs I get, support the democracy work.
>
> Please understand and not take offense, that I can't, voluntarily, be subject to a dictator, no matter how benevolent, charming and good.

Do you also refuse to use Linux?  I purposely took the term
"benevolent dictator" from Linus's original usage.  In fact, while it
may be called a benevolent dictatorship, at its heart, this is really
a meritocracy.  Those who give the most make the most decisions.

> So I started another email list/group: PyOP "Python on the Peninsula".

Ok.  I wish you the best of luck in your future endeavors.  Before you
leave, I'd like to say thank you for all your contributions.

> As soon as you get the announce list happening, I'll be leaving Baypiggies, although I do expect my participation in the meetings to grow when I'm not weighed down by the name, "piggies".
>
> This happened:
>
> ----- On Tuesday, February 6, 2007 brad at python.org wrote:
>
> > At 12:25 PM -0800 2/6/07, Marilyn Davis wrote:
> >
> >>  Hello Python.org Postmasters,
> >>
> >>  Would you please make a pyop at python.org email list?
> >
> > Done.
> >
> >>  It will be a democratically-administrated email list for ?*?Python on
> >>  the Peninsula?*? -- the SF Bay Peninsula.
> >
> > Noted in the short description of the list.
> >
> >>  Baypiggies is the  whole SF Bay area, and I hope/expect the list to
> >>  be populated with people who attend the live meetings.  Everyone is
> >>  welcome, of course.  But to earn voting rights, you must have
> >>  attended one meeting in the last 3 months, or 2 meetings in the last year.
> >>
> >>  I hope a few democratic rules of order are ok in a python.org list.
> >
> > So far as I know, so long as the rules don't discriminate with
> > regards to race, religion, creed, gender, sexual preferences, etc...
> > you should be able to run your list pretty much however you want.
> >
> >>  I'll be the first admin, but I hope there is enough enthusiasm that
> >>  someone else will want to be the admin in a year.
> >
> > Fair enough.
> >
> > I've pre-filled in a few things on the list, including an
> > introductory description which has a few standard list policies
> > regarding the archives, etc....  If you want to change these, that's
> [rest clipped]
>
> I have a big deadline on Monday so I don't have much time for fiddling with this right now but I'll try to get it all set next week with some starting rules.
>
> So that you understand my action I'll explain that, as a democracy activist, in league with Zapatistas and other democracy activists. I see that the threatening demise of the planet is the war between corporate-governmental-military monster and democracy/people: a war between the dominant/submissant model and the cooperative model. Being part of this struggle, I feel I am betraying the cause and the earth if I willingly participate where democratic forms are disrespected ... and then there's the name thing.

Wow.  Ok.  I guess we each have our causes.  Personally, mine is open
source, and it drives me crazy to ever have to use anything closed
source.  (Now is a chance for Alex Martelli to take a quick jab at my
presentation software debacle at the last meeting ;)

> When meeting organizers are looking for help or speakers, if they raise their requests to the new announce list, I'll respond if I can, but I will be participating as a member of PyOP.
>
> For starters I will not feed the announce list into the PyOP list so that, if anyone wants to belong to both lists, there will not be duplicates.  And since this baypiggies list does not allow cross-posting, there will not be any perceived problems from a cross-post with this list. Cross-posts on the PyOP list are ok with me as long as the cross-poster takes responsibility to keep the thread making sense.  But if there are other members who feel differently, a decision reached by democratic process will override any defaults I set up.
>
> I want to point out that when Guido says he's Python's benevolent dictator, it's a bit silly because Python is just a computer language. No matter how dynamic, intelligent and fun Python is, it is not a being with a mind of her own, dignity, or a sense of responsibilty.  Guido invented Python and holds the original vision and the responsibility to protect it from turning into a committee-led mish-mash.  In reality, he is "protector" of the language.  Hard job.
>
> But, as a person, voluntarily in community with other people, it is important to me that I belong to a committee-led mish-mash.
>
> I hope a few people join me, because I do want to be in ecommunity with other Python-lovers.
>
> See you tonight,
>
> Marilyn

Best Regards,
-jj

-- 
http://jjinux.blogspot.com/

From ken at seehart.com  Fri Feb  9 02:36:00 2007
From: ken at seehart.com (Ken Seehart)
Date: Thu, 08 Feb 2007 17:36:00 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] End topic for this coming meeting
In-Reply-To: <baf0d46b0702062034p366535f5pdc0952393adc922d@mail.gmail.com>
References: <34f95723b0f325efd51441a908bed483@well.com>	<5.1.0.14.0.20070206171154.00be5950@localhost>	<c41f67b90702061945s4ce3c04frad7fc9f8a329021@mail.gmail.com>	<0ad4e3c11e40a7245c9c04375a556901@well.com>
	<baf0d46b0702062034p366535f5pdc0952393adc922d@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <45CBD000.5060809@seehart.com>

I'm am not going to be able to make it because I am ill.  I apologize 
for the late notice.

- Ken

Donna Snow wrote:
> I personally liked Mapping and Random Access.. I'm a social type
> person and like the opportunity to hear what other people are doing
> and then milling about after the meeting.. being rushed out of the
> room at the end is a bit disconcerting...
>
> We should allow for at least 15 minutes + each meeting (either before
> or after) for schmoozin'..
>
> Best Regards,
> Donna M. Snow, Owner
> C Squared Enterprises
> illuminate your web
> http://www.csquaredtech.com
>
> On 2/6/07, jim stockford <jim at well.com> wrote:
>   
>>     let's have announcements at the end, including
>> announcements of who's going to PyCon and is
>> willing to report at the March meeting.
>>
>> On Feb 6, 2007, at 7:45 PM, Shannon -jj Behrens wrote:
>>
>>     
>>> On 2/6/07, Dennis Reinhardt <DennisR at dair.com> wrote:
>>>       
>>>> At 04:59 PM 2/6/2007, jim stockford wrote:
>>>>         
>>>>>     Let's spend the final ten or so minutes of this
>>>>> coming meeting figuring out who can report on
>>>>> their reaction to PyCon--what speakers will you
>>>>> see, will you be willing to summarize and opine.
>>>>> jim
>>>>>           
>>>> Do I understand that there is no time for announcements?  Can we try
>>>> doing
>>>> announcements differently?
>>>>
>>>> I suggest for announcements which need to be made at the meeting,
>>>> that they
>>>> be written up and distributed via handouts laid on a table.  If
>>>> people need
>>>> to contact you, put your picture on the handout.
>>>>         
>>> It seems wasteful to waste paper when we have this mailing list and
>>> we're actually in a room together, but that's just me :-/
>>>
>>> -jj
>>>
>>> --
>>> http://jjinux.blogspot.com/
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Baypiggies mailing list
>>> Baypiggies at python.org
>>> To change your subscription options or unsubscribe:
>>> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies
>>>
>>>       
>> _______________________________________________
>> Baypiggies mailing list
>> Baypiggies at python.org
>> To change your subscription options or unsubscribe:
>> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies
>>
>>     
> _______________________________________________
> Baypiggies mailing list
> Baypiggies at python.org
> To change your subscription options or unsubscribe:
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies
>
>
>   

-------------- next part --------------
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From DennisR at dair.com  Fri Feb  9 02:42:43 2007
From: DennisR at dair.com (Dennis Reinhardt)
Date: Thu, 08 Feb 2007 17:42:43 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] End topic for this coming meeting
In-Reply-To: <45CBD000.5060809@seehart.com>
References: <baf0d46b0702062034p366535f5pdc0952393adc922d@mail.gmail.com>
	<34f95723b0f325efd51441a908bed483@well.com>
	<5.1.0.14.0.20070206171154.00be5950@localhost>
	<c41f67b90702061945s4ce3c04frad7fc9f8a329021@mail.gmail.com>
	<0ad4e3c11e40a7245c9c04375a556901@well.com>
	<baf0d46b0702062034p366535f5pdc0952393adc922d@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20070208173821.00bf46c8@localhost>

I will be talking about wxPython as one of 3 GUIs.  Up until today, I was a 
little light on coverage because I knew you would cover this.  However, 
this afternoon, I added some code samples showing showing wxPython code.  I 
can provide further depth on wxPython via code samples, if desired, or keep 
to original 25 minutes.

Take care of yourself and get well.

Dennis

At 05:36 PM 2/8/2007, Ken Seehart wrote:
>I'm am not going to be able to make it because I am ill.  I apologize for 
>the late notice.
>
>- Ken
>
>Donna Snow wrote:
>>
>>
>>I personally liked Mapping and Random Access.. I'm a social type
>>person and like the opportunity to hear what other people are doing
>>and then milling about after the meeting.. being rushed out of the
>>room at the end is a bit disconcerting...
>>
>>We should allow for at least 15 minutes + each meeting (either before
>>or after) for schmoozin'..
>>
>>Best Regards,
>>Donna M. Snow, Owner
>>C Squared Enterprises
>>illuminate your web
>><http://www.csquaredtech.com>http://www.csquaredtech.com
>>
>>On 2/6/07, jim stockford <mailto:jim at well.com><jim at well.com> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>
>>>     let's have announcements at the end, including
>>>announcements of who's going to PyCon and is
>>>willing to report at the March meeting.
>>>
>>>On Feb 6, 2007, at 7:45 PM, Shannon -jj Behrens wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>On 2/6/07, Dennis Reinhardt <mailto:DennisR at dair.com><DennisR at dair.com> 
>>>>wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>At 04:59 PM 2/6/2007, jim stockford wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>     Let's spend the final ten or so minutes of this
>>>>>>coming meeting figuring out who can report on
>>>>>>their reaction to PyCon--what speakers will you
>>>>>>see, will you be willing to summarize and opine.
>>>>>>jim
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>Do I understand that there is no time for announcements?  Can we try
>>>>>doing
>>>>>announcements differently?
>>>>>
>>>>>I suggest for announcements which need to be made at the meeting,
>>>>>that they
>>>>>be written up and distributed via handouts laid on a table.  If
>>>>>people need
>>>>>to contact you, put your picture on the handout.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>It seems wasteful to waste paper when we have this mailing list and
>>>>we're actually in a room together, but that's just me :-/
>>>>
>>>>-jj
>>>>
>>>>--
>>>><http://jjinux.blogspot.com/>http://jjinux.blogspot.com/
>>>>_______________________________________________
>>>>Baypiggies mailing list
>>>><mailto:Baypiggies at python.org>Baypiggies at python.org
>>>>To change your subscription options or unsubscribe:
>>>><http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies>http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>_______________________________________________
>>>Baypiggies mailing list
>>><mailto:Baypiggies at python.org>Baypiggies at python.org
>>>To change your subscription options or unsubscribe:
>>><http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies>http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>_______________________________________________
>>Baypiggies mailing list
>><mailto:Baypiggies at python.org>Baypiggies at python.org
>>To change your subscription options or unsubscribe:
>><http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies>http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies
>>
>>
>>

  ---------------------------------
| Dennis    | DennisR at dair.com    |
| Reinhardt | http://www.dair.com |
  ---------------------------------


From max at theslimmers.net  Fri Feb  9 03:04:25 2007
From: max at theslimmers.net (Max Slimmer)
Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2007 18:04:25 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] End topic for this coming meeting
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20070208173821.00bf46c8@localhost>
Message-ID: <200702090204.l1924Tbo020268@a.mail.sonic.net>

I would like to hear Ken's talk at some point in time. He indicated he had a
tool to facilitate quick build of a wxPython app.  The more the better.

max 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: baypiggies-bounces at python.org 
> [mailto:baypiggies-bounces at python.org] On Behalf Of Dennis Reinhardt
> Sent: Thursday, February 08, 2007 5:43 PM
> To: ken at seehart.com; Donna Snow; baypiggies at python.org
> Subject: Re: [Baypiggies] End topic for this coming meeting
> 
> I will be talking about wxPython as one of 3 GUIs.  Up until 
> today, I was a little light on coverage because I knew you 
> would cover this.  However, this afternoon, I added some code 
> samples showing showing wxPython code.  I can provide further 
> depth on wxPython via code samples, if desired, or keep to 
> original 25 minutes.
> 
> Take care of yourself and get well.
> 
> Dennis
> 
> At 05:36 PM 2/8/2007, Ken Seehart wrote:
> >I'm am not going to be able to make it because I am ill.  I 
> apologize 
> >for the late notice.
> >
> >- Ken
> >
> >Donna Snow wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>I personally liked Mapping and Random Access.. I'm a social type 
> >>person and like the opportunity to hear what other people are doing 
> >>and then milling about after the meeting.. being rushed out of the 
> >>room at the end is a bit disconcerting...
> >>
> >>We should allow for at least 15 minutes + each meeting 
> (either before 
> >>or after) for schmoozin'..
> >>
> >>Best Regards,
> >>Donna M. Snow, Owner
> >>C Squared Enterprises
> >>illuminate your web
> >><http://www.csquaredtech.com>http://www.csquaredtech.com
> >>
> >>On 2/6/07, jim stockford <mailto:jim at well.com><jim at well.com> wrote:
> >>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>     let's have announcements at the end, including 
> announcements of 
> >>>who's going to PyCon and is willing to report at the March meeting.
> >>>
> >>>On Feb 6, 2007, at 7:45 PM, Shannon -jj Behrens wrote:
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>On 2/6/07, Dennis Reinhardt 
> >>>><mailto:DennisR at dair.com><DennisR at dair.com>
> >>>>wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>At 04:59 PM 2/6/2007, jim stockford wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>     Let's spend the final ten or so minutes of this coming 
> >>>>>>meeting figuring out who can report on their reaction to 
> >>>>>>PyCon--what speakers will you see, will you be willing to 
> >>>>>>summarize and opine.
> >>>>>>jim
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>Do I understand that there is no time for announcements?  Can we 
> >>>>>try doing announcements differently?
> >>>>>
> >>>>>I suggest for announcements which need to be made at the 
> meeting, 
> >>>>>that they be written up and distributed via handouts laid on a 
> >>>>>table.  If people need to contact you, put your picture on the 
> >>>>>handout.
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>It seems wasteful to waste paper when we have this 
> mailing list and 
> >>>>we're actually in a room together, but that's just me :-/
> >>>>
> >>>>-jj
> >>>>
> >>>>--
> >>>><http://jjinux.blogspot.com/>http://jjinux.blogspot.com/
> >>>>_______________________________________________
> >>>>Baypiggies mailing list
> >>>><mailto:Baypiggies at python.org>Baypiggies at python.org
> >>>>To change your subscription options or unsubscribe:
> >>>><http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies>http:/
> /mail.pyth
> >>>>on.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>_______________________________________________
> >>>Baypiggies mailing list
> >>><mailto:Baypiggies at python.org>Baypiggies at python.org
> >>>To change your subscription options or unsubscribe:
> >>><http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies>http://
> mail.pytho
> >>>n.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >>_______________________________________________
> >>Baypiggies mailing list
> >><mailto:Baypiggies at python.org>Baypiggies at python.org
> >>To change your subscription options or unsubscribe:
> >><http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies>http://m
> ail.python
> >>.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies
> >>
> >>
> >>
> 
>   ---------------------------------
> | Dennis    | DennisR at dair.com    |
> | Reinhardt | http://www.dair.com |
>   ---------------------------------
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Baypiggies mailing list
> Baypiggies at python.org
> To change your subscription options or unsubscribe:
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies
> 


From chad.netzer at gmail.com  Fri Feb  9 03:35:04 2007
From: chad.netzer at gmail.com (Chad Netzer)
Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2007 18:35:04 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] End topic for this coming meeting
In-Reply-To: <45CBD000.5060809@seehart.com>
References: <34f95723b0f325efd51441a908bed483@well.com>
	<5.1.0.14.0.20070206171154.00be5950@localhost>
	<c41f67b90702061945s4ce3c04frad7fc9f8a329021@mail.gmail.com>
	<0ad4e3c11e40a7245c9c04375a556901@well.com>
	<baf0d46b0702062034p366535f5pdc0952393adc922d@mail.gmail.com>
	<45CBD000.5060809@seehart.com>
Message-ID: <a14a87410702081835k19faf2e7ob8d36840eeb670@mail.gmail.com>

On 2/8/07, Ken Seehart <ken at seehart.com> wrote:
>
>  I'm am not going to be able to make it because I am ill.  I apologize for
> the late notice.
>
>  - Ken

  I'm sorry you got the "bug" Ken; it is that time when lots of people
are getting sick.  I hope to see your talk someday. I hope you get
well soon.

  I have an interest in Model-View architectures, and was hoping to
talk a bit more about it with the group, especially in relation to
wxWidgets.  It turns out that the dispatcher.py module has been
incorporated into wx (wx.py.dispatcher), and I was curious as to
whether you or Dennis were going to mention it in your Feb.
presentations.

Chad

From DennisR at dair.com  Fri Feb  9 06:39:23 2007
From: DennisR at dair.com (Dennis Reinhardt)
Date: Thu, 08 Feb 2007 21:39:23 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] Presentation URL
In-Reply-To: <45CBD000.5060809@seehart.com>
References: <baf0d46b0702062034p366535f5pdc0952393adc922d@mail.gmail.com>
	<34f95723b0f325efd51441a908bed483@well.com>
	<5.1.0.14.0.20070206171154.00be5950@localhost>
	<c41f67b90702061945s4ce3c04frad7fc9f8a329021@mail.gmail.com>
	<0ad4e3c11e40a7245c9c04375a556901@well.com>
	<baf0d46b0702062034p366535f5pdc0952393adc922d@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20070208213704.00bf6e30@localhost>

I have uploaded my presentation tonight of 3 Generations of User Interface to

	http://www.spamai.com/present/

as a 1.7 MB PowerPoint presentation or a 2.8 Zip compressed 
PDF.  Hopefully, that spans the client readers everyone who is interested has.

Regards, Dennis
  ---------------------------------
| Dennis    | DennisR at dair.com    |
| Reinhardt | http://www.dair.com |
  ---------------------------------


From drewp at bigasterisk.com  Fri Feb  9 09:05:04 2007
From: drewp at bigasterisk.com (Drew Perttula)
Date: Fri, 09 Feb 2007 00:05:04 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] profiling notes and links
Message-ID: <45CC2B30.7080608@bigasterisk.com>

Posted here:

   http://drewp.quickwitretort.com/2007/02/08/0

Thanks for the questions and comments during and after my talk.

From chad.netzer at gmail.com  Fri Feb  9 23:30:02 2007
From: chad.netzer at gmail.com (Chad Netzer)
Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2007 14:30:02 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] Discussion for newbies/beginner night talks
Message-ID: <a14a87410702091430v63871956sf1cc2f7ef55b18b9@mail.gmail.com>

First, I want to thank Dennis and Drew for speaking last night, and
Jim Stockford for hosting the post talk discussion.

I've created this thread to start discussion about the "newbie" night
that was talked about at the end of last night's meeting. If people
reply to this thread only (or mostly), those on the list who aren't
interested can easily ignore it.  If we are to host a beginners night,
it will be best to start organizing it soon, in order to line up
topics, speakers, make timely announcements, etc.

One person at the meeting asked about Python "idioms", and in fact in
a previous email I brought up the idea of an "anti-idioms"
presentation. I'll get the ball rolling with a few idioms and tips
that I can think of, without explanation.  If people are interested in
the why, or wish to add some, please reply and discuss.  Perhaps it
could evolve into a good QA topic for beginners.

Also, if people have other ideas or suggestions for a beginners night,
please feel free to discuss them here.



Some Python beginner tips and idioms:

1) Do not use lists, dicts, or any mutable object as default
arguments; use None instead.

2) If you need to do a lot of string appends, use lists and join().

3) Understand and use iterators in loops.

4) Use dictionaries, sets, and other mappings for searches and
queries.

5) Understand and use the decorate/sort/undecorate (DSU) idiom.

6) Catch exceptions that you can handle, don't suppress ones you
can't.

7) Ask forgiveness, not permission. Ie. perform conversions and
other operations using "try". Avoid queries to determine if an
operation will succeed.

8) Use assert() to document your code.

9) Don't overuse tuples as "read only" lists.  Use them to make
dictionary keys, or pass around short lived groups of objects.

10) Use open() to open files, not file(). (trivial, perhaps)


Chad

From cturner at pattern.net  Fri Feb  9 23:48:46 2007
From: cturner at pattern.net (Chip Turner)
Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2007 14:48:46 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] Discussion for newbies/beginner night talks
In-Reply-To: <a14a87410702091430v63871956sf1cc2f7ef55b18b9@mail.gmail.com>
References: <a14a87410702091430v63871956sf1cc2f7ef55b18b9@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <3ab624bd0702091448p760fa4e6w7b2c84f668c9b087@mail.gmail.com>

Another common newbie pattern are ex-Perl programmers who are trying
out python.  There's a whole host of gotchas and 'don't do it like you
did in Perl, Python has a different way' (where different usually, but
not always, is a synonym for better).  If a significant portion of the
newbies who would like to learn Python have a Perl background then
this can be a good way to get them up to speed quicker.  It is very
common in my group at work, for instance, to have a new hire be fairly
knowledgeable in Perl but not Python, and so it is a bit of a
jumpstart to help leverage the already existing skillset.

Chip

On 2/9/07, Chad Netzer <chad.netzer at gmail.com> wrote:
> First, I want to thank Dennis and Drew for speaking last night, and
> Jim Stockford for hosting the post talk discussion.
>
> I've created this thread to start discussion about the "newbie" night
> that was talked about at the end of last night's meeting. If people
> reply to this thread only (or mostly), those on the list who aren't
> interested can easily ignore it.  If we are to host a beginners night,
> it will be best to start organizing it soon, in order to line up
> topics, speakers, make timely announcements, etc.
>
> One person at the meeting asked about Python "idioms", and in fact in
> a previous email I brought up the idea of an "anti-idioms"
> presentation. I'll get the ball rolling with a few idioms and tips
> that I can think of, without explanation.  If people are interested in
> the why, or wish to add some, please reply and discuss.  Perhaps it
> could evolve into a good QA topic for beginners.
>
> Also, if people have other ideas or suggestions for a beginners night,
> please feel free to discuss them here.
>
>
>
> Some Python beginner tips and idioms:
>
> 1) Do not use lists, dicts, or any mutable object as default
> arguments; use None instead.
>
> 2) If you need to do a lot of string appends, use lists and join().
>
> 3) Understand and use iterators in loops.
>
> 4) Use dictionaries, sets, and other mappings for searches and
> queries.
>
> 5) Understand and use the decorate/sort/undecorate (DSU) idiom.
>
> 6) Catch exceptions that you can handle, don't suppress ones you
> can't.
>
> 7) Ask forgiveness, not permission. Ie. perform conversions and
> other operations using "try". Avoid queries to determine if an
> operation will succeed.
>
> 8) Use assert() to document your code.
>
> 9) Don't overuse tuples as "read only" lists.  Use them to make
> dictionary keys, or pass around short lived groups of objects.
>
> 10) Use open() to open files, not file(). (trivial, perhaps)
>
>
> Chad
> _______________________________________________
> Baypiggies mailing list
> Baypiggies at python.org
> To change your subscription options or unsubscribe:
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies
>


-- 
Chip Turner                   cturner at pattern.net

From aleax at google.com  Sat Feb 10 00:12:01 2007
From: aleax at google.com (Alex Martelli)
Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2007 15:12:01 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] Discussion for newbies/beginner night talks
In-Reply-To: <a14a87410702091430v63871956sf1cc2f7ef55b18b9@mail.gmail.com>
References: <a14a87410702091430v63871956sf1cc2f7ef55b18b9@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <55dc209b0702091512u1885cbb0y67dede68d4be6258@mail.gmail.com>

On 2/9/07, Chad Netzer <chad.netzer at gmail.com> wrote:
   ...
> Some Python beginner tips and idioms:
>
> 1) Do not use lists, dicts, or any mutable object as default
> arguments; use None instead.
>
> 2) If you need to do a lot of string appends, use lists and join().
>
> 3) Understand and use iterators in loops.
>
> 4) Use dictionaries, sets, and other mappings for searches and
> queries.
>
> 5) Understand and use the decorate/sort/undecorate (DSU) idiom.

...which is best expressed today with the key=... argument to sort &c.


> 6) Catch exceptions that you can handle, don't suppress ones you
> can't.
>
> 7) Ask forgiveness, not permission. Ie. perform conversions and
> other operations using "try". Avoid queries to determine if an
> operation will succeed.
>
> 8) Use assert() to document your code.
>
> 9) Don't overuse tuples as "read only" lists.  Use them to make
> dictionary keys, or pass around short lived groups of objects.
>
> 10) Use open() to open files, not file(). (trivial, perhaps)

11) never, ever alter the list (or other mutable container) on which
you're looping with a 'for' statement -- when feasible, build a new
container -- or, if you must, loop on a copy of the original container
if you absolutely do need to alter the original

12) if you think you need to use 'eval', or, even worse, 'exec', think
again -- most likely you do NOT need it (read up about getattr and
setattr builtins); if you DO need it, it's almost unheard of that
you'll need to do it with default locals and globals -- almost
invariably, for the rare cases where eval (or exec... if ever...) is
appropriate, you want one or two explicit dictionaries for locals and
globals.

13) eschew eschew repetition repetition -- say what you mean and say it ONCE


Alex

From DennisR at dair.com  Sat Feb 10 00:40:00 2007
From: DennisR at dair.com (Dennis Reinhardt)
Date: Fri, 09 Feb 2007 15:40:00 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] Discussion for newbies/beginner night talks
In-Reply-To: <a14a87410702091430v63871956sf1cc2f7ef55b18b9@mail.gmail.co
 m>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20070209151826.00bf4ab8@localhost>


>2) If you need to do a lot of string appends, use lists and join().

This is an optimization and as such may not be the first approach to 
consider.  All of the code samples I showed used string appends such as

        str  = ""
         str += "string 1"
         str +  "string 2"
        ...
Why?  ... because it is more concise and renders the code easier to 
read.  I think in 4 or so years, I have had to convert an append string 
such as this into appending list elements followed by a join once, maybe 
twice.

Your experience may differ but there is a clarity vs. efficiency tradeoff 
here and my experience is that the efficiency is rarely needed.

I realize Chad said "a lot".  That is a key qualifier.  When doing "a lot", 
efficiency matters.

>3) Understand and use iterators in loops.

I am using 2.3 and get by without iterators.  I would re-purpose this 
entirely.

Coming from other languages, the natural tendency is to iterate over a 
structure by index:

         for i in range(0,99):
            element = array[i]
             ...

The range operator is considered evil in that it builds a list at 
runtime.  So, taken literally, the advice could be construed to use an 
interator instead.

My advice is to not do either of the above.  Instead, iterate over the 
structure and let the array element be the loop iteration value.  Instead 
of iterators, do:

         for element in array:
             ...

and dispense with indicies to the extent that you can.  There will be cases 
where you need an index (e.g. updating element) but the first approach 
ought to be iterating over the structure.

>5) Understand and use the decorate/sort/undecorate (DSU) idiom.

I don't even know what that is.  When is the tutorial...?

Regards, Dennis


  ---------------------------------
| Dennis    | DennisR at dair.com    |
| Reinhardt | http://www.dair.com |
  ---------------------------------


From jjinux at gmail.com  Sat Feb 10 00:51:45 2007
From: jjinux at gmail.com (Shannon -jj Behrens)
Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2007 15:51:45 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] Discussion for newbies/beginner night talks
In-Reply-To: <a14a87410702091430v63871956sf1cc2f7ef55b18b9@mail.gmail.com>
References: <a14a87410702091430v63871956sf1cc2f7ef55b18b9@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <c41f67b90702091551v2b2f160er9879c5845ff30333@mail.gmail.com>

On 2/9/07, Chad Netzer <chad.netzer at gmail.com> wrote:
> First, I want to thank Dennis and Drew for speaking last night, and
> Jim Stockford for hosting the post talk discussion.
>
> I've created this thread to start discussion about the "newbie" night
> that was talked about at the end of last night's meeting. If people
> reply to this thread only (or mostly), those on the list who aren't
> interested can easily ignore it.  If we are to host a beginners night,
> it will be best to start organizing it soon, in order to line up
> topics, speakers, make timely announcements, etc.
>
> One person at the meeting asked about Python "idioms", and in fact in
> a previous email I brought up the idea of an "anti-idioms"
> presentation. I'll get the ball rolling with a few idioms and tips
> that I can think of, without explanation.  If people are interested in
> the why, or wish to add some, please reply and discuss.  Perhaps it
> could evolve into a good QA topic for beginners.
>
> Also, if people have other ideas or suggestions for a beginners night,
> please feel free to discuss them here.
>
>
>
> Some Python beginner tips and idioms:
>
> 1) Do not use lists, dicts, or any mutable object as default
> arguments; use None instead.
>
> 2) If you need to do a lot of string appends, use lists and join().

Or use a buffer:

from cStringIO import StringIO

buf = StringIO
buf.write(...)
print buf.getvalue()

> 3) Understand and use iterators in loops.
>
> 4) Use dictionaries, sets, and other mappings for searches and
> queries.
>
> 5) Understand and use the decorate/sort/undecorate (DSU) idiom.
>
> 6) Catch exceptions that you can handle, don't suppress ones you
> can't.
>
> 7) Ask forgiveness, not permission. Ie. perform conversions and
> other operations using "try". Avoid queries to determine if an
> operation will succeed.
>
> 8) Use assert() to document your code.
>
> 9) Don't overuse tuples as "read only" lists.  Use them to make
> dictionary keys, or pass around short lived groups of objects.
>
> 10) Use open() to open files, not file(). (trivial, perhaps)

#) Not everything is a class.  Some things are just functions.  That's
okay.  Passing around functions and bound methods is more powerful in
Python than in many non-functional languages.

#) Don't implement the singleton design pattern using a class with a
getInstance method.  Modules are implicitly singletons ;)

Best Regards,
-jj

-- 
http://jjinux.blogspot.com/

From jjinux at gmail.com  Sat Feb 10 00:55:16 2007
From: jjinux at gmail.com (Shannon -jj Behrens)
Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2007 15:55:16 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] Discussion for newbies/beginner night talks
In-Reply-To: <55dc209b0702091512u1885cbb0y67dede68d4be6258@mail.gmail.com>
References: <a14a87410702091430v63871956sf1cc2f7ef55b18b9@mail.gmail.com>
	<55dc209b0702091512u1885cbb0y67dede68d4be6258@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <c41f67b90702091555s4dd01b61o1c51b0d74ab005f5@mail.gmail.com>

On 2/9/07, Alex Martelli <aleax at google.com> wrote:
> On 2/9/07, Chad Netzer <chad.netzer at gmail.com> wrote:
>    ...
> > Some Python beginner tips and idioms:
> >
> > 1) Do not use lists, dicts, or any mutable object as default
> > arguments; use None instead.
> >
> > 2) If you need to do a lot of string appends, use lists and join().
> >
> > 3) Understand and use iterators in loops.
> >
> > 4) Use dictionaries, sets, and other mappings for searches and
> > queries.
> >
> > 5) Understand and use the decorate/sort/undecorate (DSU) idiom.
>
> ...which is best expressed today with the key=... argument to sort &c.
>
>
> > 6) Catch exceptions that you can handle, don't suppress ones you
> > can't.
> >
> > 7) Ask forgiveness, not permission. Ie. perform conversions and
> > other operations using "try". Avoid queries to determine if an
> > operation will succeed.
> >
> > 8) Use assert() to document your code.
> >
> > 9) Don't overuse tuples as "read only" lists.  Use them to make
> > dictionary keys, or pass around short lived groups of objects.
> >
> > 10) Use open() to open files, not file(). (trivial, perhaps)
>
> 11) never, ever alter the list (or other mutable container) on which
> you're looping with a 'for' statement -- when feasible, build a new
> container -- or, if you must, loop on a copy of the original container
> if you absolutely do need to alter the original
>
> 12) if you think you need to use 'eval', or, even worse, 'exec', think
> again -- most likely you do NOT need it (read up about getattr and
> setattr builtins); if you DO need it, it's almost unheard of that
> you'll need to do it with default locals and globals -- almost
> invariably, for the rare cases where eval (or exec... if ever...) is
> appropriate, you want one or two explicit dictionaries for locals and
> globals.
>
> 13) eschew eschew repetition repetition -- say what you mean and say it ONCE

Agreed.  The beauty of Python is looking at two chunks of code that
look the same but couldn't easily be refactored into a single block of
code in C (without macros).  In Python, thanks to meta programming, if
text "looks" similar, you can usually factor out the similarity.

-jj

-- 
http://jjinux.blogspot.com/

From jjinux at gmail.com  Sat Feb 10 00:57:58 2007
From: jjinux at gmail.com (Shannon -jj Behrens)
Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2007 15:57:58 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] Discussion for newbies/beginner night talks
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20070209151826.00bf4ab8@localhost>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20070209151826.00bf4ab8@localhost>
Message-ID: <c41f67b90702091557h635ec7d9s8148df23692ff80c@mail.gmail.com>

On 2/9/07, Dennis Reinhardt <DennisR at dair.com> wrote:
> This is an optimization and as such may not be the first approach to
> consider.  All of the code samples I showed used string appends such as
>
>         str  = ""
>          str += "string 1"
>          str +  "string 2"
>         ...

#) Use triple quoted strings, and use buffers.

-jj

-- 
http://jjinux.blogspot.com/

From cappy2112 at gmail.com  Sat Feb 10 01:04:34 2007
From: cappy2112 at gmail.com (Tony Cappellini)
Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2007 16:04:34 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] Discussion for newbies/beginner night talks
In-Reply-To: <a14a87410702091430v63871956sf1cc2f7ef55b18b9@mail.gmail.com>
References: <a14a87410702091430v63871956sf1cc2f7ef55b18b9@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <8249c4ac0702091604o54e306cfu8f60dabe670f57aa@mail.gmail.com>

> 5) Understand and use the decorate/sort/undecorate (DSU) idiom.
I wouldn't agree that this is a beginner topic, especially since it's
relatively new to the language.

From jjinux at gmail.com  Sat Feb 10 01:07:38 2007
From: jjinux at gmail.com (Shannon -jj Behrens)
Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2007 16:07:38 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] Discussion for newbies/beginner night talks
In-Reply-To: <a14a87410702091430v63871956sf1cc2f7ef55b18b9@mail.gmail.com>
References: <a14a87410702091430v63871956sf1cc2f7ef55b18b9@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <c41f67b90702091607i45f8a671v586b149018ca6b11@mail.gmail.com>

On 2/9/07, Chad Netzer <chad.netzer at gmail.com> wrote:
> First, I want to thank Dennis and Drew for speaking last night, and
> Jim Stockford for hosting the post talk discussion.
>
> I've created this thread to start discussion about the "newbie" night
> that was talked about at the end of last night's meeting. If people
> reply to this thread only (or mostly), those on the list who aren't
> interested can easily ignore it.  If we are to host a beginners night,
> it will be best to start organizing it soon, in order to line up
> topics, speakers, make timely announcements, etc.
>
> One person at the meeting asked about Python "idioms", and in fact in
> a previous email I brought up the idea of an "anti-idioms"
> presentation. I'll get the ball rolling with a few idioms and tips
> that I can think of, without explanation.  If people are interested in
> the why, or wish to add some, please reply and discuss.  Perhaps it
> could evolve into a good QA topic for beginners.
>
> Also, if people have other ideas or suggestions for a beginners night,
> please feel free to discuss them here.
>
>
>
> Some Python beginner tips and idioms:
>
> 1) Do not use lists, dicts, or any mutable object as default
> arguments; use None instead.
>
> 2) If you need to do a lot of string appends, use lists and join().
>
> 3) Understand and use iterators in loops.
>
> 4) Use dictionaries, sets, and other mappings for searches and
> queries.
>
> 5) Understand and use the decorate/sort/undecorate (DSU) idiom.
>
> 6) Catch exceptions that you can handle, don't suppress ones you
> can't.
>
> 7) Ask forgiveness, not permission. Ie. perform conversions and
> other operations using "try". Avoid queries to determine if an
> operation will succeed.
>
> 8) Use assert() to document your code.
>
> 9) Don't overuse tuples as "read only" lists.  Use them to make
> dictionary keys, or pass around short lived groups of objects.
>
> 10) Use open() to open files, not file(). (trivial, perhaps)

Sorry, I have more:

#) Keep a Python shell open.  Import modules.  Use help(obj) within
the shell.  Try things out.  Copy from the shell into your code.  The
shell is a necessary part of the development environment.

#) Use print instead of a debugger.  In rare cases, throw the
following into your code:

import pdb
pdb.set_trace()

Now, from within the debugger, instead of painstakingly tracing over
your code, pretend you're in the Python shell and look around.

#) In network servers, use a thread that listens on a unix socket as a
backdoor.  It should act like a Python shell so you can look around
your application as it's running.

-jj

-- 
http://jjinux.blogspot.com/

From jjinux at gmail.com  Sat Feb 10 01:18:21 2007
From: jjinux at gmail.com (Shannon -jj Behrens)
Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2007 16:18:21 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] Discussion for newbies/beginner night talks
In-Reply-To: <c41f67b90702091607i45f8a671v586b149018ca6b11@mail.gmail.com>
References: <a14a87410702091430v63871956sf1cc2f7ef55b18b9@mail.gmail.com>
	<c41f67b90702091607i45f8a671v586b149018ca6b11@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <c41f67b90702091618l91c1b4dne0f0a9e5a9165247@mail.gmail.com>

On 2/9/07, Shannon -jj Behrens <jjinux at gmail.com> wrote:
> On 2/9/07, Chad Netzer <chad.netzer at gmail.com> wrote:
> > First, I want to thank Dennis and Drew for speaking last night, and
> > Jim Stockford for hosting the post talk discussion.
> >
> > I've created this thread to start discussion about the "newbie" night
> > that was talked about at the end of last night's meeting. If people
> > reply to this thread only (or mostly), those on the list who aren't
> > interested can easily ignore it.  If we are to host a beginners night,
> > it will be best to start organizing it soon, in order to line up
> > topics, speakers, make timely announcements, etc.
> >
> > One person at the meeting asked about Python "idioms", and in fact in
> > a previous email I brought up the idea of an "anti-idioms"
> > presentation. I'll get the ball rolling with a few idioms and tips
> > that I can think of, without explanation.  If people are interested in
> > the why, or wish to add some, please reply and discuss.  Perhaps it
> > could evolve into a good QA topic for beginners.
> >
> > Also, if people have other ideas or suggestions for a beginners night,
> > please feel free to discuss them here.
> >
> >
> >
> > Some Python beginner tips and idioms:
> >
> > 1) Do not use lists, dicts, or any mutable object as default
> > arguments; use None instead.
> >
> > 2) If you need to do a lot of string appends, use lists and join().
> >
> > 3) Understand and use iterators in loops.
> >
> > 4) Use dictionaries, sets, and other mappings for searches and
> > queries.
> >
> > 5) Understand and use the decorate/sort/undecorate (DSU) idiom.
> >
> > 6) Catch exceptions that you can handle, don't suppress ones you
> > can't.
> >
> > 7) Ask forgiveness, not permission. Ie. perform conversions and
> > other operations using "try". Avoid queries to determine if an
> > operation will succeed.
> >
> > 8) Use assert() to document your code.
> >
> > 9) Don't overuse tuples as "read only" lists.  Use them to make
> > dictionary keys, or pass around short lived groups of objects.
> >
> > 10) Use open() to open files, not file(). (trivial, perhaps)
>
> Sorry, I have more:
>
> #) Keep a Python shell open.  Import modules.  Use help(obj) within
> the shell.  Try things out.  Copy from the shell into your code.  The
> shell is a necessary part of the development environment.
>
> #) Use print instead of a debugger.  In rare cases, throw the
> following into your code:
>
> import pdb
> pdb.set_trace()
>
> Now, from within the debugger, instead of painstakingly tracing over
> your code, pretend you're in the Python shell and look around.
>
> #) In network servers, use a thread that listens on a unix socket as a
> backdoor.  It should act like a Python shell so you can look around
> your application as it's running.

#) Use the source.  Don't just read it!  Update it!  If you're having
a problem with a standard library module or a third-party module,
remember that you're not dealing with a compiled DLL.  You can log in
as root and throw some print statements into the thing!  Remember to
undo your changes before you leave.

-jj

-- 
http://jjinux.blogspot.com/

From DennisR at dair.com  Sat Feb 10 01:18:58 2007
From: DennisR at dair.com (Dennis Reinhardt)
Date: Fri, 09 Feb 2007 16:18:58 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] Discussion for newbies/beginner night talks
In-Reply-To: <c41f67b90702091557h635ec7d9s8148df23692ff80c@mail.gmail.co
 m>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20070209151826.00bf4ab8@localhost>
	<5.1.0.14.0.20070209151826.00bf4ab8@localhost>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20070209160547.00beedc8@localhost>

At 03:57 PM 2/9/2007, Shannon -jj Behrens wrote:
>On 2/9/07, Dennis Reinhardt <DennisR at dair.com> wrote:
>>This is an optimization and as such may not be the first approach to
>>consider.  All of the code samples I showed used string appends such as
>>
>>         str  = ""
>>          str += "string 1"
>>          str +  "string 2"
>>         ...
>
>#) Use triple quoted strings, and use buffers.

Triple quoted strings are often a poorer solution.

   1) to avoid breaking up the indentation structure, triple quoted
      strings must either have lots of extra white space or must be
      defined globally.  If globally, subroutine level parameter
      substitution is awkward.
   2) Parameter substitution is very awkward for long blocks of
      text.

A common idiom I run up against is defining html in which the user may have 
already entered a value.  So, one might find:

         html += "<input type=text name=xyz value=%s>" % previous("xyz")

and where it is understood that previous() reads the invoking URL for the 
xyz= parameter value.

Doing this in a long triple string is ugly.

Dennis

  ---------------------------------
| Dennis    | DennisR at dair.com    |
| Reinhardt | http://www.dair.com |
  ---------------------------------


From asheesh at asheesh.org  Sat Feb 10 01:21:20 2007
From: asheesh at asheesh.org (Asheesh Laroia)
Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2007 19:21:20 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [Baypiggies] Discussion for newbies/beginner night talks
In-Reply-To: <c41f67b90702091618l91c1b4dne0f0a9e5a9165247@mail.gmail.com>
References: <a14a87410702091430v63871956sf1cc2f7ef55b18b9@mail.gmail.com>
	<c41f67b90702091607i45f8a671v586b149018ca6b11@mail.gmail.com>
	<c41f67b90702091618l91c1b4dne0f0a9e5a9165247@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.0.82.0702091919430.31293@alchemy>

On Fri, 9 Feb 2007, Shannon -jj Behrens wrote:

> #) Use the source.  Don't just read it!  Update it!  If you're having a 
> problem with a standard library module or a third-party module, remember 
> that you're not dealing with a compiled DLL.  You can log in as root and 
> throw some print statements into the thing!  Remember to undo your 
> changes before you leave.

The fact that eggs (zip files of packaged Python code) make this harder is 
the main reason I don't like that packaging format.

-- Asheesh.

-- 
Your aims are high, and you are capable of much.

From sesquile at gmail.com  Sat Feb 10 01:24:34 2007
From: sesquile at gmail.com (m h)
Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2007 17:24:34 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] Discussion for newbies/beginner night talks
In-Reply-To: <c41f67b90702091607i45f8a671v586b149018ca6b11@mail.gmail.com>
References: <a14a87410702091430v63871956sf1cc2f7ef55b18b9@mail.gmail.com>
	<c41f67b90702091607i45f8a671v586b149018ca6b11@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <e36b84ee0702091624x59a27d52t8cfd232b9fe28063@mail.gmail.com>

Here's some other good hints::

http://www.pkgcore.org/trac/doc/dev-notes/hacking.rst

-matt

From aahz at pythoncraft.com  Sat Feb 10 01:42:32 2007
From: aahz at pythoncraft.com (Aahz)
Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2007 16:42:32 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] Discussion for newbies/beginner night talks
In-Reply-To: <a14a87410702091430v63871956sf1cc2f7ef55b18b9@mail.gmail.com>
References: <a14a87410702091430v63871956sf1cc2f7ef55b18b9@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20070210004231.GA26064@panix.com>

On Fri, Feb 09, 2007, Chad Netzer wrote:
>
> 8) Use assert() to document your code.

First of all, assert is a statement, not a function.  Second, doctests
are much better for documenting code IMO.
-- 
Aahz (aahz at pythoncraft.com)           <*>         http://www.pythoncraft.com/

"I disrespectfully agree."  --SJM

From p at ulmcnett.com  Sat Feb 10 02:05:17 2007
From: p at ulmcnett.com (Paul McNett)
Date: Fri, 09 Feb 2007 17:05:17 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] Discussion for newbies/beginner night talks
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20070209160547.00beedc8@localhost>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20070209151826.00bf4ab8@localhost>	<5.1.0.14.0.20070209151826.00bf4ab8@localhost>
	<5.1.0.14.0.20070209160547.00beedc8@localhost>
Message-ID: <45CD1A4D.90004@ulmcnett.com>

Dennis Reinhardt wrote:
> At 03:57 PM 2/9/2007, Shannon -jj Behrens wrote:
>> On 2/9/07, Dennis Reinhardt <DennisR at dair.com> wrote:
>>> This is an optimization and as such may not be the first approach to
>>> consider.  All of the code samples I showed used string appends such as
>>>
>>>         str  = ""
>>>          str += "string 1"
>>>          str +  "string 2"
>>>         ...
>> #) Use triple quoted strings, and use buffers.
> 
> Triple quoted strings are often a poorer solution.
> 
>    1) to avoid breaking up the indentation structure, triple quoted
>       strings must either have lots of extra white space or must be
>       defined globally.  If globally, subroutine level parameter
>       substitution is awkward.

I respectfully disagree. Take this example:

class MyBizobj(...):
	def getCustomerInfo(self, cust_id):
		sql = """
select customers.name as name,
        sum(invoices.amount) as amount_total,
        blah as blah
   from customers
   left join invoices
     on invoices.cust_id = customers.id
  where customers.id = ?"""
		self.cur.execute(sql, (cust_id,))

On one level, it is kind of ugly because I don't indent the lines to 
match the indentation of the code. On the other hand, it is easy to follow.

>    2) Parameter substitution is very awkward for long blocks of
>       text.

Again, I disagree.


> A common idiom I run up against is defining html in which the user may have 
> already entered a value.  So, one might find:
> 
>          html += "<input type=text name=xyz value=%s>" % previous("xyz")
> 
> and where it is understood that previous() reads the invoking URL for the 
> xyz= parameter value.
> 
> Doing this in a long triple string is ugly.

You should use named arguments in string formatting. Such as:

html += """
<input type="text" name="%(field_name)s" value="%(field_value)s">
""" % locals()

Ok ok, this example is kind of ugly too, but it seems better when you 
actually have a block of html.

-- 
pkm ~ http://paulmcnett.com


From p at ulmcnett.com  Sat Feb 10 02:07:46 2007
From: p at ulmcnett.com (Paul McNett)
Date: Fri, 09 Feb 2007 17:07:46 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] Discussion for newbies/beginner night talks
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.0.82.0702091919430.31293@alchemy>
References: <a14a87410702091430v63871956sf1cc2f7ef55b18b9@mail.gmail.com>	<c41f67b90702091607i45f8a671v586b149018ca6b11@mail.gmail.com>	<c41f67b90702091618l91c1b4dne0f0a9e5a9165247@mail.gmail.com>
	<alpine.DEB.0.82.0702091919430.31293@alchemy>
Message-ID: <45CD1AE2.8090503@ulmcnett.com>

Asheesh Laroia wrote:
> On Fri, 9 Feb 2007, Shannon -jj Behrens wrote:
> 
>> #) Use the source.  Don't just read it!  Update it!  If you're having a 
>> problem with a standard library module or a third-party module, remember 
>> that you're not dealing with a compiled DLL.  You can log in as root and 
>> throw some print statements into the thing!  Remember to undo your 
>> changes before you leave.
> 
> The fact that eggs (zip files of packaged Python code) make this harder is 
> the main reason I don't like that packaging format.

Agreed. I think eggs may be great for getting required stuff on user's 
machines, when for whatever reason you didn't want to be polite and 
package it up for them with py2exe or something. But for developing, 
nothing beats having things closer to the top level in site-packages.

Although, I do plan on attending the eggs session at PyCon, because I do 
see the value of having something kind of cpan-like for Python.

-- 
pkm ~ http://paulmcnett.com


From DennisR at dair.com  Sat Feb 10 02:21:45 2007
From: DennisR at dair.com (Dennis Reinhardt)
Date: Fri, 09 Feb 2007 17:21:45 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] Discussion for newbies/beginner night talks
In-Reply-To: <45CD1A4D.90004@ulmcnett.com>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20070209160547.00beedc8@localhost>
	<5.1.0.14.0.20070209151826.00bf4ab8@localhost>
	<5.1.0.14.0.20070209151826.00bf4ab8@localhost>
	<5.1.0.14.0.20070209160547.00beedc8@localhost>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20070209171258.00bfbdc0@localhost>

At 05:05 PM 2/9/2007, Paul McNett wrote:

>I respectfully disagree. Take this example:
>
>class MyBizobj(...):
>         def getCustomerInfo(self, cust_id):
>                 sql = """
>select customers.name as name,

This starts with an empty line.  I believe this can be changed by

                 sql = \
"""select customers.name as name,

Which then breaks up the SQL, albeit only slightly.

My point had to do with "breaking up the indentation structure" and I think 
you have illustrated my point.

You illustration does not show how a long triple quoted string gets 
supplied with parameters.  Stylistically, I often prefer substituting 
parameters on a line by line basis because there is better locality, making 
the code easier to understand and read.

Dennis



  ---------------------------------
| Dennis    | DennisR at dair.com    |
| Reinhardt | http://www.dair.com |
  ---------------------------------


From DennisR at dair.com  Sat Feb 10 02:31:39 2007
From: DennisR at dair.com (Dennis Reinhardt)
Date: Fri, 09 Feb 2007 17:31:39 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] Discussion for newbies/beginner night talks
In-Reply-To: <45CD1A4D.90004@ulmcnett.com>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20070209160547.00beedc8@localhost>
	<5.1.0.14.0.20070209151826.00bf4ab8@localhost>
	<5.1.0.14.0.20070209151826.00bf4ab8@localhost>
	<5.1.0.14.0.20070209160547.00beedc8@localhost>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20070209172435.00beea68@localhost>

At 05:05 PM 2/9/2007, Paul McNett wrote:
>Dennis Reinhardt wrote:
>Take this example:
>
>class MyBizobj(...):
>         def getCustomerInfo(self, cust_id):
>                 sql = """
>select customers.name as name,
>         sum(invoices.amount) as amount_total,
>         blah as blah
>    from customers
>    left join invoices
>      on invoices.cust_id = customers.id
>   where customers.id = ?"""
>                 self.cur.execute(sql, (cust_id,))

To preserve SQL *and* Python structuring, I would write this as:

class MyBizobj(...):
     def getCustomerInfo(self, cust_id):
        sql  = ""
        sql += "select customers.name as name,\r\n"
        sql += "        sum(invoices.amount) as amount_total,\r\n"
        sql += "        blah as blah\r\n"
        sql += "   from customers\r\n"
        sql += "   left join invoices\r\n"
        sql += "     on invoices.cust_id = customers.id\r\n"
        sql += "  where customers.id = ?\r\n"
         self.cur.execute(sql, (cust_id,))

Dennis
  ---------------------------------
| Dennis    | DennisR at dair.com    |
| Reinhardt | http://www.dair.com |
  ---------------------------------


From whitaker at google.com  Sat Feb 10 02:40:33 2007
From: whitaker at google.com (Russell Whitaker)
Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2007 17:40:33 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] Discussion for newbies/beginner night talks
In-Reply-To: <a14a87410702091430v63871956sf1cc2f7ef55b18b9@mail.gmail.com>
References: <a14a87410702091430v63871956sf1cc2f7ef55b18b9@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <997a56990702091740g4effd89s15066f92f754ed1e@mail.gmail.com>

On 2/9/07, Chad Netzer <chad.netzer at gmail.com> wrote:
> First, I want to thank Dennis and Drew for speaking last night, and
> Jim Stockford for hosting the post talk discussion.
>
> I've created this thread to start discussion about the "newbie" night
> that was talked about at the end of last night's meeting. If people
> reply to this thread only (or mostly), those on the list who aren't
> interested can easily ignore it.  If we are to host a beginners night,
> it will be best to start organizing it soon, in order to line up
> topics, speakers, make timely announcements, etc.
>
> One person at the meeting asked about Python "idioms", and in fact in
> a previous email I brought up the idea of an "anti-idioms"
> presentation. I'll get the ball rolling with a few idioms and tips
> that I can think of, without explanation.  If people are interested in
> the why, or wish to add some, please reply and discuss.  Perhaps it
> could evolve into a good QA topic for beginners.
>
> Also, if people have other ideas or suggestions for a beginners night,
> please feel free to discuss them here.
>
>
>
> Some Python beginner tips and idioms:
>
> 1) Do not use lists, dicts, or any mutable object as default
> arguments; use None instead.
>
> 2) If you need to do a lot of string appends, use lists and join().
>
> 3) Understand and use iterators in loops.
>
> 4) Use dictionaries, sets, and other mappings for searches and
> queries.
>
> 5) Understand and use the decorate/sort/undecorate (DSU) idiom.
>
> 6) Catch exceptions that you can handle, don't suppress ones you
> can't.
>
> 7) Ask forgiveness, not permission. Ie. perform conversions and
> other operations using "try". Avoid queries to determine if an
> operation will succeed.
>
> 8) Use assert() to document your code.
>
> 9) Don't overuse tuples as "read only" lists.  Use them to make
> dictionary keys, or pass around short lived groups of objects.
>
> 10) Use open() to open files, not file(). (trivial, perhaps)
>

#) Learn to use the unittest module.  Buy the O'Reilly book "Unit Test
Frameworks"[1], read at least chapters 1-4 & 9.  Challenge yourself to
write all your code test-first.

[1] - http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/unitest/

-- 
Russell Whitaker
Sysops Tools Team Lead
Google Inc., Mt View, CA
"gets() remains as a monument to C's continuing support of buffer
overruns." - Bill Frantz

From carroll at tjc.com  Sat Feb 10 02:42:14 2007
From: carroll at tjc.com (Terry Carroll)
Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2007 17:42:14 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Baypiggies] Discussion for newbies/beginner night talks
In-Reply-To: <c41f67b90702091618l91c1b4dne0f0a9e5a9165247@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0702091741230.31417-100000@violet.rahul.net>

#) Don't use "from foo import *"



From chad.netzer at gmail.com  Sat Feb 10 02:43:00 2007
From: chad.netzer at gmail.com (Chad Netzer)
Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2007 17:43:00 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] Discussion for newbies/beginner night talks
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20070209172435.00beea68@localhost>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20070209151826.00bf4ab8@localhost>
	<5.1.0.14.0.20070209160547.00beedc8@localhost>
	<45CD1A4D.90004@ulmcnett.com>
	<5.1.0.14.0.20070209172435.00beea68@localhost>
Message-ID: <a14a87410702091743x2153bab0h1d3d3891d00c4596@mail.gmail.com>

n 2/9/07, Dennis Reinhardt <DennisR at dair.com> wrote:
>
> To preserve SQL *and* Python structuring, I would write this as:
>
> class MyBizobj(...):
>      def getCustomerInfo(self, cust_id):
>         sql  = ""
>         sql += "select customers.name as name,\r\n"
>         sql += "        sum(invoices.amount) as amount_total,\r\n"
>         sql += "        blah as blah\r\n"
>         sql += "   from customers\r\n"
>         sql += "   left join invoices\r\n"
>         sql += "     on invoices.cust_id = customers.id\r\n"
>         sql += "  where customers.id = ?\r\n"
>          self.cur.execute(sql, (cust_id,))

Another alternative (which does the concatenation at compile time) is:

class MyBizobj(...):
    def getCustomerInfo(self, cust_id):
        sql  = (
            "select customers.name as name,\r\n"
            "        sum(invoices.amount) as amount_total,\r\n"
            "        blah as blah\r\n"
            "   from customers\r\n"
            "   etc..."
        )

Chad

From chad.netzer at gmail.com  Sat Feb 10 02:49:59 2007
From: chad.netzer at gmail.com (Chad Netzer)
Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2007 17:49:59 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] Discussion for newbies/beginner night talks
In-Reply-To: <20070210004231.GA26064@panix.com>
References: <a14a87410702091430v63871956sf1cc2f7ef55b18b9@mail.gmail.com>
	<20070210004231.GA26064@panix.com>
Message-ID: <a14a87410702091749m4223658cm95207b64dfe8153@mail.gmail.com>

On 2/9/07, Aahz <aahz at pythoncraft.com> wrote:
> On Fri, Feb 09, 2007, Chad Netzer wrote:
> >
> > 8) Use assert() to document your code.
>
> First of all, assert is a statement, not a function.  Second, doctests
> are much better for documenting code IMO.

Right you are!  In the past I had the habit of using the parens, but
they are unpythonic.
Also, really I should have said "use assert to comment your code".

Thus if variable 'a' must be greater than 0, use this:

assert a > 0

rather than:

# 'a' must be greater than zero

Chad

From nad at acm.org  Sat Feb 10 02:49:57 2007
From: nad at acm.org (Ned Deily)
Date: Fri, 09 Feb 2007 17:49:57 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] Discussion for newbies/beginner night talks
References: <a14a87410702091430v63871956sf1cc2f7ef55b18b9@mail.gmail.com>
	<c41f67b90702091607i45f8a671v586b149018ca6b11@mail.gmail.com>
	<c41f67b90702091618l91c1b4dne0f0a9e5a9165247@mail.gmail.com>
	<alpine.DEB.0.82.0702091919430.31293@alchemy>
	<45CD1AE2.8090503@ulmcnett.com>
Message-ID: <nad-810DF1.17495709022007@sea.gmane.org>

In article <45CD1AE2.8090503 at ulmcnett.com>,
 Paul McNett <p at ulmcnett.com> wrote:
> Asheesh Laroia wrote:
> > On Fri, 9 Feb 2007, Shannon -jj Behrens wrote:
> >> #) Use the source.  Don't just read it!  Update it!  If you're having a 
> >> problem with a standard library module or a third-party module, remember 
> >> that you're not dealing with a compiled DLL.  You can log in as root and 
> >> throw some print statements into the thing!  Remember to undo your 
> >> changes before you leave.
> > The fact that eggs (zip files of packaged Python code) make this harder is 
> > the main reason I don't like that packaging format.
> Agreed. I think eggs may be great for getting required stuff on user's 
> machines, when for whatever reason you didn't want to be polite and 
> package it up for them with py2exe or something. But for developing, 
> nothing beats having things closer to the top level in site-packages.

eggs do not have to be zipped; that's just the default.  To install eggs 
unzipped, use the -Z (--always-unzip) option to easy_install.  If you 
always want eggs to be installed unzipped, add a few lines to one of the 
config files read by setuptools or easy_install, for example:

$ cat ~/.pydistutils.cfg 
[easy_install]
upgrade = 1
zip-ok = 0

-- 
 Ned Deily,
 nad at acm.org


From chad.netzer at gmail.com  Sat Feb 10 02:58:42 2007
From: chad.netzer at gmail.com (Chad Netzer)
Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2007 17:58:42 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] Discussion for newbies/beginner night talks
In-Reply-To: <8249c4ac0702091604o54e306cfu8f60dabe670f57aa@mail.gmail.com>
References: <a14a87410702091430v63871956sf1cc2f7ef55b18b9@mail.gmail.com>
	<8249c4ac0702091604o54e306cfu8f60dabe670f57aa@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <a14a87410702091758i36d1c476g30cec941c18fa4f4@mail.gmail.com>

On 2/9/07, Tony Cappellini <cappy2112 at gmail.com> wrote:
> > 5) Understand and use the decorate/sort/undecorate (DSU) idiom.
> I wouldn't agree that this is a beginner topic, especially since it's
> relatively new to the language.

Well, the idiom isn't all that new, although as Alex M. pointed out,
the 'key' argument
to list.sort() is.

For those not familiar with it:

http://wiki.python.org/moin/HowTo/Sorting

Also, see the sorted() builtin with recent Python versions.

Chad

From p at ulmcnett.com  Sat Feb 10 05:26:27 2007
From: p at ulmcnett.com (Paul McNett)
Date: Fri, 09 Feb 2007 20:26:27 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] Discussion for newbies/beginner night talks
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20070209172435.00beea68@localhost>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20070209160547.00beedc8@localhost>	<5.1.0.14.0.20070209151826.00bf4ab8@localhost>	<5.1.0.14.0.20070209151826.00bf4ab8@localhost>	<5.1.0.14.0.20070209160547.00beedc8@localhost>
	<5.1.0.14.0.20070209172435.00beea68@localhost>
Message-ID: <45CD4973.60406@ulmcnett.com>

Dennis Reinhardt wrote:
> At 05:05 PM 2/9/2007, Paul McNett wrote:
>> Dennis Reinhardt wrote:
>> Take this example:
>>
>> class MyBizobj(...):
>>         def getCustomerInfo(self, cust_id):
>>                 sql = """
>> select customers.name as name,
>>         sum(invoices.amount) as amount_total,
>>         blah as blah
>>    from customers
>>    left join invoices
>>      on invoices.cust_id = customers.id
>>   where customers.id = ?"""
>>                 self.cur.execute(sql, (cust_id,))
> 
> To preserve SQL *and* Python structuring, I would write this as:
> 
> class MyBizobj(...):
>      def getCustomerInfo(self, cust_id):
>         sql  = ""
>         sql += "select customers.name as name,\r\n"
>         sql += "        sum(invoices.amount) as amount_total,\r\n"
>         sql += "        blah as blah\r\n"
>         sql += "   from customers\r\n"
>         sql += "   left join invoices\r\n"
>         sql += "     on invoices.cust_id = customers.id\r\n"
>         sql += "  where customers.id = ?\r\n"
>          self.cur.execute(sql, (cust_id,))

Yuck! :)  I guess it's good that Python lets me write it how I want to, 
and you write it how you want to!

-- 
pkm ~ http://paulmcnett.com


From p at ulmcnett.com  Sat Feb 10 05:27:59 2007
From: p at ulmcnett.com (Paul McNett)
Date: Fri, 09 Feb 2007 20:27:59 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] Discussion for newbies/beginner night talks
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0702091741230.31417-100000@violet.rahul.net>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0702091741230.31417-100000@violet.rahul.net>
Message-ID: <45CD49CF.7070405@ulmcnett.com>

Terry Carroll wrote:
> #) Don't use "from foo import *"

But don't fall into the mindset that if that is bad, "from foo import 
bar" is therefore bad, too.

-- 
pkm ~ http://paulmcnett.com


From lantal at tmail.com  Sat Feb 10 05:28:58 2007
From: lantal at tmail.com (Laszlo Antal)
Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2007 20:28:58 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] (no subject)
Message-ID: <1171081738.2A2879EE@gf28.dngr.org>

Hi,
This is a great thread.
I want to thank everyone for sharing their wisdom.
Keep it coming.

Thank you


On 2/9/07, Tony Cappellini <cappy2112 at gmail.com> wrote:
>  > 5) Understand and use the decorate/sort/undecorate (DSU) idiom.
>  I wouldn't agree that this is a beginner topic, especially since it's
>  relatively new to the language.

> Well, the idiom isn't all that new, although as Alex M. pointed out,
> the 'key' argument
> to list.sort() is.

> For those not familiar with it:

> http://wiki.python.org/moin/HowTo/Sorting

> Also, see the sorted() builtin with recent Python versions.

> Chad
_______________________________________________
> Baypiggies mailing list
> Baypiggies at python.org
> To change your subscription options or unsubscribe:
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies

Laszlo Antal

From lantal at tmail.com  Sat Feb 10 05:32:39 2007
From: lantal at tmail.com (Laszlo Antal)
Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2007 20:32:39 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] Discussion for newbies/beginner night talks
References: <1171081738.2A2879EE@gf28.dngr.org>
Message-ID: <1171081959.118A0D91@ff1.dngr.org>

Hi,
This is a great thread.
I want to thank everyone for sharing their wisdom.
Keep it coming.

Thank you

On 2/9/07, Tony Cappellini <cappy2112 at gmail.com> wrote:
>  > 5) Understand and use the decorate/sort/undecorate (DSU) idiom.
>  I wouldn't agree that this is a beginner topic, especially since it's
>  relatively new to the language.

> Well, the idiom isn't all that new, although as Alex M. pointed out,
> the 'key' argument
> to list.sort() is.

> For those not familiar with it:

> http://wiki.python.org/moin/HowTo/Sorting

> Also, see the sorted() builtin with recent Python versions.

> Chad
_______________________________________________
> Baypiggies mailing list
> Baypiggies at python.org
> To change your subscription options or unsubscribe:
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies

Laszlo Antal

Laszlo Antal

From jjinux at gmail.com  Sat Feb 10 05:39:40 2007
From: jjinux at gmail.com (Shannon -jj Behrens)
Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2007 20:39:40 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] Discussion for newbies/beginner night talks
In-Reply-To: <45CD49CF.7070405@ulmcnett.com>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0702091741230.31417-100000@violet.rahul.net>
	<45CD49CF.7070405@ulmcnett.com>
Message-ID: <c41f67b90702092039p7b145ba4q2260618f22df8392@mail.gmail.com>

#) Don't write complicated classes that have similar APIs to dicts,
lists, etc.  If it looks like a dict and smells like a dict, use a
dict.  Don't write a bunch of boilerplate API.  You can either
subclass a real dict, subclass UserDict (in rare situations), mixin
the UserDictMixin (spell? also in rare situations), etc., or just
provide access to the underlying dict.

#) Don't write getters and setters that don't actually do anything
except set a private instance member.  If that's the case, just use a
public instance member.  Later, you can switch to a real property
using the idiom in the Python cookbook
http://aspn.activestate.com/ASPN/Cookbook/Python/Recipe/205183:

def foo():
        doc = "property foo's doc string"
        def fget(self):
            return self._foo
        def fset(self, value):
            self._foo = value
        def fdel(self):
            del self._foo
        return locals()  # credit: David Niergarth
    foo = property(**foo())

#) Need something?  Use the online Python Cookbook ;)  Got something
cool?  Submit it to the cookbook.  The code there isn't always
perfect, but it's usually a really good starting point!

Happy Hacking!
-jj

-- 
http://jjinux.blogspot.com/

From jjinux at gmail.com  Sat Feb 10 05:42:04 2007
From: jjinux at gmail.com (Shannon -jj Behrens)
Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2007 20:42:04 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] Discussion for newbies/beginner night talks
In-Reply-To: <c41f67b90702092039p7b145ba4q2260618f22df8392@mail.gmail.com>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0702091741230.31417-100000@violet.rahul.net>
	<45CD49CF.7070405@ulmcnett.com>
	<c41f67b90702092039p7b145ba4q2260618f22df8392@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <c41f67b90702092042y2a853db7g5c54b5bca7a404b6@mail.gmail.com>

#) Don't Import the World

When designing a module and considering what modules it will need to
import, consider what the hierarchy of modules will look like when
you're done. If your hierarchy has arrows going back towards the top,
something is wrong; circular imports are nightmarish. It's better to
have many small modules with a clean hierarchy of imports.

#) Embrace Truth According to Python

Consider the following:

>>> def truth(x):
...     if x is not None:             # Truth test 1.
...         print "Not none."
...     if x:                         # Truth test 2.
...         print "bool(x) is not False."
...
>>> truth(None)                       # Fails both tests.
>>> truth(True)                       # Passes both tests.
Not none.
bool(x) is not False.                 # Only passes test 1.
>>> truth([])
Not none.

Python has a very-rich understanding of "truth". if x is not None is
very simple and fast. if x is very smart and flexible. Both are
useful. Understand the difference and pick the right one for your
situation.

#) Embrace the Pythonic Approach to Interfaces

Python doesn't have interfaces in the same way Java and C++ do.
Instead, it has duck typing, "If it looks like a duck and quacks like
a duck, it's a duck!" Consider:

>>> def talk_to(obj):
...     obj.talk()
...
>>> class Dog:
...     def talk(self):
...         print "Woof!"
...
>>> class Cat:
...     def talk(self):
...         print "Meow!"
...
>>> talk_to(Dog())
Woof!
>>> talk_to(Cat())
Meow!

In Java, Dog and Cat would need to either subclass some parent class
or implement an interface. This is unnecessary in Python. Nonetheless,
it's still a good idea to at least document complicated interfaces. If
you insist on creating what C++ calls a "pure virtual" method, here's
how:

>>> class Talks:
...     def talk(self):
...         """Print something interesting."""
...         raise NotImplementedError
...
>>> class Dog(Talks):
...     pass
...
>>> Dog().talk()
Traceback (most recent call last):
  File "<stdin>", line 1, in ?
  File "<stdin>", line 3, in talk
NotImplementedError

Tools like Epydoc and PyChecker understand this NotImplementedError
idiom. Furthermore, it's a great opportunity to include some
documentation about the method.

#) Use the dict.get() Method

>>> d = {"a": 1}
>>> if d.has_key("a"):                # This is the hard way.
...     value = d["a"]
... else:
...     value = "default"
...
>>> print value
1
>>> print d.get("a", "default")       # This is the easy way.
1
>>> b = d.get("b")
>>> if b is None:
...     print "Oh, no!  No b!"
...
Oh, no!  No b!

#) Similarly, have a peek at: help({}.setdefault).

Happy Hacking!
-jj

From DennisR at dair.com  Sat Feb 10 05:46:45 2007
From: DennisR at dair.com (Dennis Reinhardt)
Date: Fri, 09 Feb 2007 20:46:45 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] Discussion for newbies/beginner night talks
In-Reply-To: <1171081738.2A2879EE@gf28.dngr.org>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20070209204012.00be9ae8@localhost>

At 08:28 PM 2/9/2007, Laszlo Antal wrote:
>Hi,
>This is a great thread.
>I want to thank everyone for sharing their wisdom.
>Keep it coming.

I *was* going to duck out because I was outnumbered by those favoring 
triple quoting.

Yes, triple quoting can work for simple situations.  The triple quoting 
examples displayed in this thread have been just that: simple.  They do not 
include conditionally executed code or do parameter substitution.  What 
they do is obscure the block structure of the code.

Here is a code fragment from my talk last night (foil 15, I believe).  How 
would you re-write this to utilize triple quoting?  The task here is to 
build a two level visual tree structure:

# build entire initial tree structure
def init_tree(ht_obj):
     html = "<table border=0>"
     index = 0
     last_exe = ""
     for xml_entry in util_actwin.display_list("enm", "+"):
         exe_name = str_extract(xml_entry, ["enm"])
         keye   = safe_int(str_extract(xml_entry, ["key"]))
         act = str_extract(xml_entry, ["act"])
         #logger("init_tree %s %s" % (keye, exe_name))
         fname, exe = exe_name.split(".")
         if fname != last_exe:
             html += "<tr>"
             if fname == expanded_node:
                 html += "<td><img src=image/slct32.gif border=0></td>"
             else:
                 html += "\r\n<td><a 
href=edt_main.py?slct=expand&fname=%s>" % fname
                 html += "<%s></a></td>\r\n" % hovered_img(ht_obj, index)
             html += "<td><img src=%s width=32 height=32></td>" % 
get_program_image(fname)
             html += "<td>%s</td>" % fname
             html += "<td>&nbsp;</td>"
             html += "</tr>"
         if fname == expanded_node:
             html += "<tr>"
             html += "<td>&nbsp;</td>"
             parm_index = safe_int_default(ht_obj.param("index"), -1)
             if parm_index == keye:
                 html += "<td><img src=image/slct32.gif border=0></td>"
                 html += "<td><img src=%s " % get_action_image(xml_entry)
                 html +=     "width=32 height=32 border=0></td>"
             else:
                 html += "<td><a href=edt_main.py?slct=edit"
                 html +=     "&class=tree_open32"
                 html +=     "&index=%s"       % keye
                 html +=     "&act=%s"         % act
                 html +=     "><%s></a></td>" % hovered_img(ht_obj, index)
                 html += "<td><img src=%s " % get_action_image(xml_entry)
                 html +=     "width=16 height=16 border=0></td>"
             html += "<td>%s</td>" % get_caption(xml_entry)
             html += "</tr>"
         else:
             pass
         last_exe = fname
         index += 1
     html += "</table>"
     return html

  ---------------------------------
| Dennis    | DennisR at dair.com    |
| Reinhardt | http://www.dair.com |
  ---------------------------------


From dyoo at cs.wpi.edu  Sat Feb 10 06:00:39 2007
From: dyoo at cs.wpi.edu (Daniel Yoo)
Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2007 00:00:39 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [Baypiggies] Discussion for newbies/beginner night talks (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.63.0702092359590.14948@cs.wpi.edu>

I don't think my reply got through the first time (forgot that I'm using a 
different email address at WPI now.)  Let me refoward my message.

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2007 18:50:06 -0500 (EST)
From: Daniel Yoo <dyoo at cs.wpi.edu>
To: Dennis Reinhardt <DennisR at dair.com>
Cc: baypiggies at python.org
Subject: Re: [Baypiggies] Discussion for newbies/beginner night talks



> >  2) If you need to do a lot of string appends, use lists and join().
>
>  This is an optimization and as such may not be the first approach to
>  consider.  All of the code samples I showed used string appends such as
>
>         str  = ""
>          str += "string 1"
>          str +  "string 2"
>         ...

Hi Dennis,

I guess the other thing to point out is: if you're doing a lot of string 
appends, see if circumstances will let you can avoid it.  For example, if 
you're building xml output, don't do it by string appending things together if 
you can avoid it: build the xml tree, and have the xml library do the 
xml->string thing.


Related to this is making sure that if the problem involves data structures, 
use data structures: don't treat everything like a string. If we need to 
produce a dictionary whose keys are a combination of several values, don't 
string concatenate, but rather build a tuple, and use that as the key:

##########################################################
## not so good
def add_phone(book, first_name, last_name, phone_number):
      book[first_name + "," + last_name] = phone_number

def lookup(book, first_name, last_name):
      return book[first_name + "," + last_name]


## A little better
def add_phone(book, first_name, last_name, phone_number):
      book[(first_name, last_name)] = phone_number

def lookup(book, first_name, last_name):
     return book[(first_name, last_name)]
##########################################################


That is, sometimes we avoid string concatenation not because of efficiency, but 
because it's more correct to do so.  The first solution forces us to think 
about people putting in first_name and last_name combinations that concatenate 
to the same string, whereas the tuple solution has only one possible way of 
building that tuple.


Best of wishes!

From webmaven at cox.net  Sat Feb 10 06:05:43 2007
From: webmaven at cox.net (Michael Bernstein)
Date: Fri, 09 Feb 2007 21:05:43 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] [Fwd: Re: Discussion for newbies/beginner night talks]
Message-ID: <1171083943.6728.262.camel@workshop>

On Fri, 2007-02-09 at 17:21 -0800, Dennis Reinhardt wrote:
> At 05:05 PM 2/9/2007, Paul McNett wrote:
> 
> >I respectfully disagree. Take this example:
> >
> >class MyBizobj(...):
> >         def getCustomerInfo(self, cust_id):
> >                 sql = """
> >select customers.name as name,
> 
> This starts with an empty line.  I believe this can be changed by
> 
>                  sql = \
> """select customers.name as name,
> 
> Which then breaks up the SQL, albeit only slightly.

I recently came across some code that used this convention:

        a = StringIO("""\
blah blah blah
...
            """)

which takes care of the leading extra line.

Or, I found this useful function a couple of years ago that strips the
leading and trailing blank lines and eliminates the *common* extra
indentation at the beginning of lines in a multiline string, so you
could add the extra whitespace needed to make it look OK within the code
without sacrificing the indenting that was actually part of the string's
formatting:

http://aspn.activestate.com/ASPN/Cookbook/Python/Recipe/145672

HTH,

- Michael R. Bernstein
  michaelbernstein.com
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From DennisR at dair.com  Sat Feb 10 06:20:01 2007
From: DennisR at dair.com (Dennis Reinhardt)
Date: Fri, 09 Feb 2007 21:20:01 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] Discussion for newbies/beginner night talks (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.63.0702092359590.14948@cs.wpi.edu>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20070209211142.00bec0c0@localhost>

Danny,

Thanks, I did get it before.  I like your (first_name, last_name) key 
example.  Very neat technique.

It is good to hear from you.  I hope you are doing well.

At 09:00 PM 2/9/2007, Daniel Yoo wrote:
>I don't think my reply got through the first time (forgot that I'm using a
>different email address at WPI now.)  Let me refoward my message.
>
>Hi Dennis,
>
>##########################################################
>## A little better
>def add_phone(book, first_name, last_name, phone_number):
>       book[(first_name, last_name)] = phone_number
>
>def lookup(book, first_name, last_name):
>      return book[(first_name, last_name)]
>##########################################################

  ---------------------------------
| Dennis    | DennisR at dair.com    |
| Reinhardt | http://www.dair.com |
  ---------------------------------


From marilyn at deliberate.com  Sat Feb 10 07:12:08 2007
From: marilyn at deliberate.com (Marilyn Davis)
Date: Fri, 09 Feb 2007 22:12:08 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] Discussion for newbies/beginner night talks
Message-ID: <20070210061212.5F25D1E4012@bag.python.org>


----- On Friday, February 9, 2007 whitaker at google.com wrote:

> On 2/9/07, Chad Netzer  wrote:
>> First, I want to thank Dennis and Drew for speaking last night, and
>> Jim Stockford for hosting the post talk discussion.
>>
>> I've created this thread to start discussion about the "newbie" night
>> that was talked about at the end of last night's meeting. If people
>> reply to this thread only (or mostly), those on the list who aren't
>> interested can easily ignore it.  If we are to host a beginners night,
>> it will be best to start organizing it soon, in order to line up
>> topics, speakers, make timely announcements, etc.
>>
>> One person at the meeting asked about Python "idioms", and in fact in
>> a previous email I brought up the idea of an "anti-idioms"
>> presentation. I'll get the ball rolling with a few idioms and tips
>> that I can think of, without explanation.  If people are interested in
>> the why, or wish to add some, please reply and discuss.  Perhaps it
>> could evolve into a good QA topic for beginners.
>>
>> Also, if people have other ideas or suggestions for a beginners night,
>> please feel free to discuss them here.
>>
>>
>>
>> Some Python beginner tips and idioms:
>>
>> 1) Do not use lists, dicts, or any mutable object as default
>> arguments; use None instead.
>>
>> 2) If you need to do a lot of string appends, use lists and join().
>>
>> 3) Understand and use iterators in loops.
>>
>> 4) Use dictionaries, sets, and other mappings for searches and
>> queries.
>>
>> 5) Understand and use the decorate/sort/undecorate (DSU) idiom.
>>
>> 6) Catch exceptions that you can handle, don't suppress ones you
>> can't.
>>
>> 7) Ask forgiveness, not permission. Ie. perform conversions and
>> other operations using "try". Avoid queries to determine if an
>> operation will succeed.
>>
>> 8) Use assert() to document your code.
>>
>> 9) Don't overuse tuples as "read only" lists.  Use them to make
>> dictionary keys, or pass around short lived groups of objects.
>>
>> 10) Use open() to open files, not file(). (trivial, perhaps)
>>
> 
> #) Learn to use the unittest module.  Buy the O'Reilly book "Unit Test
> Frameworks"[1], read at least chapters 1-4 & 9.  Challenge yourself to
> write all your code test-first.
> 
> [1] - http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/unitest/

< hour with newbees?  New to Python, but know another language?  

I think I'd teach them:

if __name__ == '__main__':

Import it from another module and show how it doesn't run.  Get them in a namespace state of mind.

The rest of the example syntax can be almost-english-python.  What would be a fun example?  Enumerate is impressive to push in there.  Sneak in a regular expression with named groups?  They probably worked all day so there is a limit to how much you can push into their brains so maybe demo more, taking up the time, and stuff in less material so they go home feeling like they got it.

But mostly, you want to get newbeez in a namespace state-of-mind.

Marilyn

p.s.  Thanks for the tidbits of Pythonic wisdom.  They're mostly pretty intermediate, I think.  More please.  Hurry!  Before the announce list is announced and I gotta go.

> 
> --
> Russell Whitaker
> Sysops Tools Team Lead
> Google Inc., Mt View, CA
> "gets() remains as a monument to C's continuing support of buffer
> overruns." - Bill Frantz
> _______________________________________________
> Baypiggies mailing list
> Baypiggies at python.org
> To change your subscription options or unsubscribe:
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies



From zia at cruzio.com  Sat Feb 10 09:27:04 2007
From: zia at cruzio.com (Doug Landauer)
Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2007 00:27:04 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] Discussion for newbies/beginner night talks
In-Reply-To: <a14a87410702091743x2153bab0h1d3d3891d00c4596@mail.gmail.com>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20070209151826.00bf4ab8@localhost>
	<5.1.0.14.0.20070209160547.00beedc8@localhost>
	<45CD1A4D.90004@ulmcnett.com>
	<5.1.0.14.0.20070209172435.00beea68@localhost>
	<a14a87410702091743x2153bab0h1d3d3891d00c4596@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <912f4b0e8cd902a015d66ebf6148b204@cruzio.com>

For what it's worth, here's my version.  It was inspired by Hal 
Fulton's "margin" method from his Ruby book.  It works at runtime, and 
isn't as strict as the cookbook example that Michael Bernstein 
mentioned ( 
http://aspn.activestate.com/ASPN/Cookbook/Python/Recipe/145672 ), but 
it's short and a bit easier to use (less cluttered-looking at usage 
site) than Chad's more efficient compile-time version.

import re
undent_pat = re.compile( r"(?m)^\s*\S(.*)$", re.M  )
def undent (str):
     return undent_pat.sub( r'\1', str.rstrip() )

# Example:

def getCustomerInfo(cust_id):
     sql  = undent( '''\
             |select customers.name as name,
             |        sum(invoices.amount) as amount_total,
             |        blah as blah
             |   from customers
             |   etc...
             ''')

Maybe I ought to add it to that cookbook entry.

  -- Doug L.


On Feb 9, 2007, at 5:43 PM, Chad Netzer wrote:

> n 2/9/07, Dennis Reinhardt <DennisR at dair.com> wrote:
>>
>> To preserve SQL *and* Python structuring, I would write this as:
>>
>> class MyBizobj(...):
>>      def getCustomerInfo(self, cust_id):
>>         sql  = ""
>>         sql += "select customers.name as name,\r\n"
>>         sql += "        sum(invoices.amount) as amount_total,\r\n"
>>         sql += "        blah as blah\r\n"
>>         sql += "   from customers\r\n"
>>         sql += "   left join invoices\r\n"
>>         sql += "     on invoices.cust_id = customers.id\r\n"
>>         sql += "  where customers.id = ?\r\n"
>>          self.cur.execute(sql, (cust_id,))
>
> Another alternative (which does the concatenation at compile time) is:
>
> class MyBizobj(...):
>     def getCustomerInfo(self, cust_id):
>         sql  = (
>             "select customers.name as name,\r\n"
>             "        sum(invoices.amount) as amount_total,\r\n"
>             "        blah as blah\r\n"
>             "   from customers\r\n"
>             "   etc..."
>         )
>
> Chad
> _______________________________________________
> Baypiggies mailing list
> Baypiggies at python.org
> To change your subscription options or unsubscribe:
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies
>


From zia at cruzio.com  Sat Feb 10 09:42:21 2007
From: zia at cruzio.com (Doug Landauer)
Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2007 00:42:21 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] Discussion for newbies/beginner night talks
In-Reply-To: <912f4b0e8cd902a015d66ebf6148b204@cruzio.com>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20070209151826.00bf4ab8@localhost>
	<5.1.0.14.0.20070209160547.00beedc8@localhost>
	<45CD1A4D.90004@ulmcnett.com>
	<5.1.0.14.0.20070209172435.00beea68@localhost>
	<a14a87410702091743x2153bab0h1d3d3891d00c4596@mail.gmail.com>
	<912f4b0e8cd902a015d66ebf6148b204@cruzio.com>
Message-ID: <f7b1e3f5be1eb447ff1f04478e217a3e@cruzio.com>

On Feb 10, 2007, at 12:27 AM, Doug Landauer wrote:
> For what it's worth, here's my version.  It was inspired by Hal
> Fulton's "margin" method from his Ruby book.  It works at runtime, and
> isn't as strict as the cookbook example that Michael Bernstein
> mentioned (
> http://aspn.activestate.com/ASPN/Cookbook/Python/Recipe/145672 ), but
> it's short and a bit easier to use (less cluttered-looking at usage
> site) than Chad's more efficient compile-time version.
>
> import re
> undent_pat = re.compile( r"(?m)^\s*\S(.*)$", re.M  )
> def undent (str):
>      return undent_pat.sub( r'\1', str.rstrip() )

Always happens just *after* I post ...

I merged a couple of versions of that pattern, and now the initial (?m) 
is redundant.
Removing it makes the pattern easier to understand:

   undent_pat = re.compile( r"^\s*\S(.*)$", re.M  )

With the M (multiline) mode, ^ matches beginning of any line in the 
string, and $ matches the ends of them.

So you can use an even shorter version:

import re
def undent (str):
     return re.sub( r'(?m)^\s*\S(.*)$', r'\1', str.rstrip() )

if you don't care about the regex getting recompiled at each usage.

  -- Doug L.


From chad.netzer at gmail.com  Sat Feb 10 11:14:34 2007
From: chad.netzer at gmail.com (Chad Netzer)
Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2007 02:14:34 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] Discussion for newbies/beginner night talks
In-Reply-To: <3ab624bd0702091448p760fa4e6w7b2c84f668c9b087@mail.gmail.com>
References: <a14a87410702091430v63871956sf1cc2f7ef55b18b9@mail.gmail.com>
	<3ab624bd0702091448p760fa4e6w7b2c84f668c9b087@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <a14a87410702100214i6f4ea1d8s4d2f0cd452853cca@mail.gmail.com>

Keep it coming everyone!  What a fun thread.  I'm going to try to put
together some TeX slides gathering these examples together this
weekend, and host it on my website for some collaborative feedback.
But with all these suggestions, ranked from beginner to more advanced,
we have the beginnings of a "newbie" talk with a Q&A format, I think.

Thanks to all who have weighed in so far.  Are there any lurking
beginners out there who have specific issues they want addressed?

Chip, you brought up certain idioms that Perl programmers should
unlearn when moving to Python.  Do you have any specific examples?
Are there any Java programmers that took up Python, who have specific
suggestions about making the transition?

Chad

From andy_lists at bananabread.net  Sat Feb 10 08:58:03 2007
From: andy_lists at bananabread.net (Andrew Brown)
Date: Fri, 09 Feb 2007 23:58:03 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] Discussion for newbies/beginner night talks
In-Reply-To: <a14a87410702091430v63871956sf1cc2f7ef55b18b9@mail.gmail.com>
References: <a14a87410702091430v63871956sf1cc2f7ef55b18b9@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <45CD7B0B.7060503@bananabread.net>

Chad Netzer wrote:
> I'll get the ball rolling with a few idioms and tips
> that I can think of, without explanation.  If people are interested in
> the why, or wish to add some, please reply and discuss.  Perhaps it
> could evolve into a good QA topic for beginners.

Wow, this is the best stuff I've ever gotten out of the Python group or 
meetings. I think you're onto something here.

What I am finding so valuable:

Dealing with fundamental and frequently used python idioms,
But giving them a thorough workout and showing how to use them well and 
Pythonically while avoiding common pitfalls.
Demonstrating the consequences thereof (good and bad).

Revolving around highly utilized components gives the very new plenty of 
time to pick up on the basics.
Further showing how to use and abuse the idioms draws out the experience 
in the crowd to help intermediate people faster catch on to what isn't 
readily obvious in basic documentation or from light usage.

Maybe what I'm envisioning is a "Things you wish you'd understood sooner 
in Python - night"

(Hopefully I posted this comment in the right place.)

Andy








From aahz at pythoncraft.com  Sat Feb 10 15:24:34 2007
From: aahz at pythoncraft.com (Aahz)
Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2007 06:24:34 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] Discussion for newbies/beginner night talks
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20070209171258.00bfbdc0@localhost>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20070209160547.00beedc8@localhost>
	<5.1.0.14.0.20070209151826.00bf4ab8@localhost>
	<5.1.0.14.0.20070209151826.00bf4ab8@localhost>
	<5.1.0.14.0.20070209160547.00beedc8@localhost>
	<5.1.0.14.0.20070209171258.00bfbdc0@localhost>
Message-ID: <20070210142434.GB24895@panix.com>

On Fri, Feb 09, 2007, Dennis Reinhardt wrote:
> At 05:05 PM 2/9/2007, Paul McNett wrote:
>> 
>>I respectfully disagree. Take this example:
>>
>>class MyBizobj(...):
>>         def getCustomerInfo(self, cust_id):
>>                 sql = """
>>select customers.name as name,
> 
> This starts with an empty line.  I believe this can be changed by
> 
>                  sql = \
> """select customers.name as name,
> 
> Which then breaks up the SQL, albeit only slightly.
> 
> My point had to do with "breaking up the indentation structure" and I think 
> you have illustrated my point.
> 
> You illustration does not show how a long triple quoted string gets 
> supplied with parameters.  Stylistically, I often prefer substituting 
> parameters on a line by line basis because there is better locality, making 
> the code easier to understand and read.

Strings like SQL and HTML that do not normally get presented to the user
don't need to care about whitespace AT ALL.  Here's what I normally do at
work:

    sql = """
        select c.name 
        from customers c
        where c.activation_date > %s
        """ % db.sql_repr(activation_date)

The SQL itself may be further indented as needed for clarity
-- 
Aahz (aahz at pythoncraft.com)           <*>         http://www.pythoncraft.com/

"I disrespectfully agree."  --SJM

From p at ulmcnett.com  Sat Feb 10 16:54:42 2007
From: p at ulmcnett.com (Paul McNett)
Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2007 07:54:42 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] Discussion for newbies/beginner night talks
In-Reply-To: <20070210061212.5F25D1E4012@bag.python.org>
References: <20070210061212.5F25D1E4012@bag.python.org>
Message-ID: <45CDEAC2.1020106@ulmcnett.com>

Marilyn Davis wrote:
> But mostly, you want to get newbeez in a namespace state-of-mind.

This hits the nail on the head. Namespaces, names, and how an object 
isn't going to know its name in whatever namespace is binding to it. 
This is one of those things that is *so simple* to those that understand 
it, but can be a roadblock to those who don't.

-- 
pkm ~ http://paulmcnett.com


From p at ulmcnett.com  Sat Feb 10 17:14:16 2007
From: p at ulmcnett.com (Paul McNett)
Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2007 08:14:16 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] Discussion for newbies/beginner night talks
In-Reply-To: <20070210142434.GB24895@panix.com>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20070209160547.00beedc8@localhost>	<5.1.0.14.0.20070209151826.00bf4ab8@localhost>	<5.1.0.14.0.20070209151826.00bf4ab8@localhost>	<5.1.0.14.0.20070209160547.00beedc8@localhost>	<5.1.0.14.0.20070209171258.00bfbdc0@localhost>
	<20070210142434.GB24895@panix.com>
Message-ID: <45CDEF58.7040109@ulmcnett.com>

Aahz wrote:
> On Fri, Feb 09, 2007, Dennis Reinhardt wrote:
>> You illustration does not show how a long triple quoted string gets 
>> supplied with parameters.  Stylistically, I often prefer substituting 
>> parameters on a line by line basis because there is better locality, making 
>> the code easier to understand and read.

How about this contrived example:

def getHeader(self, **kwargs):
	html = """<!-- BOF header -->

<html>
<head>
	<title>%(title)s</title>
	<meta name="description" value="%(title)s">
	<meta name="keywords" value="%(keywords)s">
</head>

<body>
%(navigation_bar)s

<!-- EOF header -->
"""
	return html % kwargs


> Strings like SQL and HTML that do not normally get presented to the user
> don't need to care about whitespace AT ALL.

I think that with longish triple-quoted strings, ignoring the code 
indentation is the best. But that's me.


-- 
pkm ~ http://paulmcnett.com


From tungwaiyip at yahoo.com  Sat Feb 10 18:41:25 2007
From: tungwaiyip at yahoo.com (Tung Wai Yip)
Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2007 09:41:25 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] Discussion for newbies/beginner night talks
In-Reply-To: <45CDEF58.7040109@ulmcnett.com>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20070209160547.00beedc8@localhost>
	<5.1.0.14.0.20070209151826.00bf4ab8@localhost>
	<5.1.0.14.0.20070209171258.00bfbdc0@localhost>
	<20070210142434.GB24895@panix.com> <45CDEF58.7040109@ulmcnett.com>
Message-ID: <op.tnjnfb06oiuain@smtp.mail.yahoo.com>

On Sat, 10 Feb 2007 08:14:16 -0800, Paul McNett <p at ulmcnett.com> wrote:

> Aahz wrote:
>> On Fri, Feb 09, 2007, Dennis Reinhardt wrote:
>>> You illustration does not show how a long triple quoted string gets
>>> supplied with parameters.  Stylistically, I often prefer substituting
>>> parameters on a line by line basis because there is better locality,  
>>> making
>>> the code easier to understand and read.
>
> How about this contrived example:
>
> def getHeader(self, **kwargs):
> 	html = """<!-- BOF header -->
>
> <html>
> <head>
> 	<title>%(title)s</title>
> 	<meta name="description" value="%(title)s">
> 	<meta name="keywords" value="%(keywords)s">
> </head>
>
> <body>
> %(navigation_bar)s
>
> <!-- EOF header -->
> """
> 	return html % kwargs
>
>
>> Strings like SQL and HTML that do not normally get presented to the user
>> don't need to care about whitespace AT ALL.
>
> I think that with longish triple-quoted strings, ignoring the code
> indentation is the best. But that's me.


I'm with you. I often embed long fragement of SQL or HTML into Python  
source code. I can easily read the embedded text fragement as a whole  
without a lot of quotes inserted if I would have to break them into  
individual lines. Even better, it avoids the obfuscation of escaping the "  
character with \". I think triple quote is one of the feature I like most  
in Python.

One caveat - since you use % to format the arguments, the individual %  
characters in the text block would have to escaped. Something you'd likely  
to encounter when embedding CSS.

Wai Yip

From DennisR at dair.com  Sat Feb 10 18:26:19 2007
From: DennisR at dair.com (Dennis Reinhardt)
Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2007 09:26:19 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] Discussion for newbies/beginner night talks
In-Reply-To: <20070210142434.GB24895@panix.com>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20070209171258.00bfbdc0@localhost>
	<5.1.0.14.0.20070209160547.00beedc8@localhost>
	<5.1.0.14.0.20070209151826.00bf4ab8@localhost>
	<5.1.0.14.0.20070209151826.00bf4ab8@localhost>
	<5.1.0.14.0.20070209160547.00beedc8@localhost>
	<5.1.0.14.0.20070209171258.00bfbdc0@localhost>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20070210091207.00bfbae0@localhost>

At 06:24 AM 2/10/2007, Aahz wrote:

>Strings like SQL and HTML that do not normally get presented to the user
>don't need to care about whitespace AT ALL.  Here's what I normally do at
>work:
>
>     sql = """
>         select c.name
>         from customers c
>         where c.activation_date > %s
>         """ % db.sql_repr(activation_date)
>
>The SQL itself may be further indented as needed for clarity


Sure, this works.  I would not put "AT ALL" in caps because that extra 
white space carries  extra runtime memory footprint and flows through CPU 
cache on string retrieval.  But, hey, if I were a total efficiency 
advocate, I would not be string appending or maybe even using Python.

For long strings with many substitutions, the line where the substitution 
is used (the %s) is many lines removed from where it is defined.  I think 
using and defining them on same line has better locality.  For the text 
body, this is very readable.

  ---------------------------------
| Dennis    | DennisR at dair.com    |
| Reinhardt | http://www.dair.com |
  ---------------------------------


From DennisR at dair.com  Sat Feb 10 19:11:43 2007
From: DennisR at dair.com (Dennis Reinhardt)
Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2007 10:11:43 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] Discussion for newbies/beginner night talks
In-Reply-To: <20070209230414.1afb919e@psyche.corp.google.com>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20070209204012.00be9ae8@localhost>
	<1171081738.2A2879EE@gf28.dngr.org>
	<5.1.0.14.0.20070209204012.00be9ae8@localhost>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20070210095042.00bfbae0@localhost>

At 11:04 PM 2/9/2007, Keith Dart =?UTF-8?B?4pmC?= wrote:
>Dennis Reinhardt wrote the following on 2007-02-09 at 20:46 PST:
>===
> > # build entire initial tree structure
>
>Just FYI, here is (something like) how I would re-write it using my
>XHTML generator module:   .....
>
>Although, if I did it from scratch I would do it differently. Probably
>I would use a the table generator with row and column iterators.

My original code wrapped wxPython functions.  I re-wrote in place to 
substitute html.

Your version is more readable.  Right now, I have only a single need for 
this tree structure and my "inlined" version works for me.  Even without 
your XHTML generator module, I can and will refactor this code along the 
lines you show if a second use arises.

Regards, Dennis
  ---------------------------------
| Dennis    | DennisR at dair.com    |
| Reinhardt | http://www.dair.com |
  ---------------------------------


From DennisR at dair.com  Sat Feb 10 18:48:53 2007
From: DennisR at dair.com (Dennis Reinhardt)
Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2007 09:48:53 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] Discussion for newbies/beginner night talks
In-Reply-To: <45CDEF58.7040109@ulmcnett.com>
References: <20070210142434.GB24895@panix.com>
	<5.1.0.14.0.20070209160547.00beedc8@localhost>
	<5.1.0.14.0.20070209151826.00bf4ab8@localhost>
	<5.1.0.14.0.20070209151826.00bf4ab8@localhost>
	<5.1.0.14.0.20070209160547.00beedc8@localhost>
	<5.1.0.14.0.20070209171258.00bfbdc0@localhost>
	<20070210142434.GB24895@panix.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20070210090643.00bf5cb8@localhost>

At 08:14 AM 2/10/2007, Paul McNett wrote:
> > On Fri, Feb 09, 2007, Dennis Reinhardt wrote:
> >> Stylistically, I often prefer substituting
> >> parameters on a line by line basis because there is better locality, 
> making
> >> the code easier to understand and read.
>
>How about this contrived example:
>
>def getHeader(self, **kwargs):
>       ......
>       return html % kwargs

Clever example and manageable.  Not shown is the invocation of getHeader() 
where the actual parameter values are defined.  This contrived example 
separates definition and use.  I think something like

       html += "<title>%s</title>" % ht_obj.param("title")

has better locality by bringing definition and use closer together on same 
line (or two lines).

Synthesizing this discussion,

         title = ht_obj.param("title") #extract string from URL
        ....
        html = """\
               ...
               <title>%(title)s</title>
               ...
               """

looks ok to me.  It does not allow piecing together strings conditionally 
at run time but it does a fine job of expressing fixed strings with 
substitutions.
  ---------------------------------
| Dennis    | DennisR at dair.com    |
| Reinhardt | http://www.dair.com |
  ---------------------------------


From p at ulmcnett.com  Sat Feb 10 19:29:07 2007
From: p at ulmcnett.com (Paul McNett)
Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2007 10:29:07 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] Discussion for newbies/beginner night talks
In-Reply-To: <op.tnjnfb06oiuain@smtp.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20070209160547.00beedc8@localhost>	<5.1.0.14.0.20070209151826.00bf4ab8@localhost>	<5.1.0.14.0.20070209171258.00bfbdc0@localhost>	<20070210142434.GB24895@panix.com>
	<45CDEF58.7040109@ulmcnett.com>
	<op.tnjnfb06oiuain@smtp.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <45CE0EF3.5030408@ulmcnett.com>

Tung Wai Yip wrote:
> One caveat - since you use % to format the arguments, the individual %  
> characters in the text block would have to escaped. Something you'd likely  
> to encounter when embedding CSS.

Yep, which is why I move over to Template when things like that are 
likely to be a problem. Else, it isn't too big a deal to remember to %%.

-- 
pkm ~ http://paulmcnett.com


From jim at well.com  Sat Feb 10 20:15:27 2007
From: jim at well.com (jim stockford)
Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2007 11:15:27 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] Discussion for newbies/beginner night talks
In-Reply-To: <8249c4ac0702091604o54e306cfu8f60dabe670f57aa@mail.gmail.com>
References: <a14a87410702091430v63871956sf1cc2f7ef55b18b9@mail.gmail.com>
	<8249c4ac0702091604o54e306cfu8f60dabe670f57aa@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <32ef362c7a25f2e88a66b9d27384ef2a@well.com>


    what's the assumption of a newbie? I'm guessing
not new to programming but pretty well experienced
in C, VB, Java, Perl 5 (and maybe interested in future
features in Perl 6), maybe looking at Ruby as an
alternative commitment to Python. I think our group
has at least one ADA-experienced coder, certainly
there are a few assembler experienced. All of the
above might identify themselves as newbies wrt
Python.
    If you buy the above, the decorators and other
new and/or exotic features in Python might be
very interesting for them.


On Feb 9, 2007, at 4:04 PM, Tony Cappellini wrote:

>> 5) Understand and use the decorate/sort/undecorate (DSU) idiom.
> I wouldn't agree that this is a beginner topic, especially since it's
> relatively new to the language.
> _______________________________________________
> Baypiggies mailing list
> Baypiggies at python.org
> To change your subscription options or unsubscribe:
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies
>


From spmcinerney at hotmail.com  Sun Feb 11 02:34:33 2007
From: spmcinerney at hotmail.com (Stephen McInerney)
Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2007 17:34:33 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies]  Two distinct categories of newbies
In-Reply-To: <32ef362c7a25f2e88a66b9d27384ef2a@well.com>
Message-ID: <BAY131-F196C7B77B3649EA7530482A0920@phx.gbl>

There are two distinct categories of newbies, be aware that these are very 
different:

1) people who are new to programming
(also includes the rapidly-growing sector of people using Python in 
education at all levels (elementary, high-school, science, visualization).)

2) people who are new to Python but experienced in programming
(i.e. migrators from PERL,C++,Java,VB etc.)
Most of their time is spent with a syntax guide, reference manual,
package reference, and also in translating or learning new idioms
("how do I implement feature X from language Y?"), design patterns
and unlearning bad or suboptimal practices from their old languages.
(e.g. I mentioned before the book "PERL to Python Migration" by Martin C 
Brown
- it only addresses the syntax and library reference, but it's the best I've 
found.)

You might include in this 2a) people who became disillusioned with the lack 
of useful features of their previous language ("paradigm shoppers").
So to address these it is best to present
"Top Ten Things that are Easier/Faster/Better in Python than PERL"
(e.g. you can create arbitrarily-deep nested data structures, and they will 
throw a very helpful and descriptive exception if you use the wrong accessor 
function, instead of continuing silently as PERL does).

Regards,
Stephen

_________________________________________________________________
FREE online classifieds from Windows Live Expo ? buy and sell with people 
you know 
http://clk.atdmt.com/MSN/go/msnnkwex0010000001msn/direct/01/?href=http://expo.live.com?s_cid=Hotmail_tagline_12/06


From ddf at lka.com  Mon Feb 12 03:01:31 2007
From: ddf at lka.com (Delbert Franz)
Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2007 18:01:31 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] Discussion for newbies/beginner night talks
In-Reply-To: <32ef362c7a25f2e88a66b9d27384ef2a@well.com>
References: <a14a87410702091430v63871956sf1cc2f7ef55b18b9@mail.gmail.com>
	<8249c4ac0702091604o54e306cfu8f60dabe670f57aa@mail.gmail.com>
	<32ef362c7a25f2e88a66b9d27384ef2a@well.com>
Message-ID: <200702111801.31819.ddf@lka.com>

On Saturday 10 February 2007 11:15, jim stockford wrote:
> 
>     what's the assumption of a newbie? I'm guessing
> not new to programming but pretty well experienced
> in C, VB, Java, Perl 5 (and maybe interested in future
> features in Perl 6), maybe looking at Ruby as an
> alternative commitment to Python. I think our group
> has at least one ADA-experienced coder, certainly
> there are a few assembler experienced. All of the
> above might identify themselves as newbies wrt
> Python.
>     If you buy the above, the decorators and other
> new and/or exotic features in Python might be
> very interesting for them.
> 
> 
> On Feb 9, 2007, at 4:04 PM, Tony Cappellini wrote:
> 
> >> 5) Understand and use the decorate/sort/undecorate (DSU) idiom.
> > I wouldn't agree that this is a beginner topic, especially since it's
> > relatively new to the language.
> > _______________________________________________

 
I have been reading this thread with considerable interest.  I'm 
what you would call a newbie.  My first meeting of baypiggies was
on 8 February.  I got word of the meeting and the group via
Wesley Chun, as I was one of 24 students in his latest "Intro
to Python" class.  By the way, it's a great class! 

Here are some of my thoughts on  newbies/beginner night
talks:

1. It is generally helpful to know something about one's audience before
making a presentation:)  However, the range of background and experiences of
people coming to Python is varied.   The background outlined above 
is quite distant from me.  I programmed in C about 20 years ago for 
about 6 months on an eight-bit computer with 64KB RAM!  Other than 
that, I have experience in none of the languages listed.  

2. Based on the attendees at the class I took, the backgrounds are diverse:
two of us had extensive education outside of IT, the rest had various software
application, maintenance, sys admim, etc. experience. Some had C and C++, 
and others had a background in Perl.  Some were there primarily because their
boss sent them!  Quite a number had not encountered any object-oriented language
before. 

3.  I have come to Python after about 40 years of experience in Fortran,
about five in PL/I, about two years of assembler for a Dec PDP 8/I, and some Basic.
I have had one university course in what would now be called Computer Science
(the term was not yet coined when I started).  The reason my clients retain me
is for my expertise in solving their problem.  The software I develop and use
comes along with me and for their staff, but it is my expertise in applying
the software and training users that gets my foot in the door.  Of course I have
to maintain and extend the software as I go along and sometimes that is 
an explicit paid item but often it is just part of my "overhead".  Thus software
development is somewhat of an adjunct to my main body of expertise. 

4. My interest in Python is for developing GUI-based data displays and analysis
of the results from  my software which models unsteady free-surface
flow in rivers, canals, storm sewers, and related structures.  I'm also interested
in the scientific and numerical packages in Python: numpy, scipy, matplotlib, 
etc. 

5.  Here are some topics that I would find interesting and also useful:

5.1 Someone giving a talk on their experience in using scientific/numerical
applications via Python.  I don't have enough knowledge yet but perhaps in 
a year or two I may:) 

5.2 A recent "newbie graduate", whose only exposure to object-oriented programming
came from Python, sharing how they came to understand, view, and use classes,
inheritance, methods, etc.   What attracts them to that approach and how is it
better than the non-object oriented approaches? Comparisons with other object-oriented
languages are useless to me but might be useful for other newbies.

5.3 Some talks on experience with various graphical interfaces: TK, GTK, pyQT, etc.
I currently have  some experience with TK, having constructed an interactive package
to create 2-D time-series plots of flows, and elevations during flood events.
I have not had time to give another interface a try.   GTK sounds interesting 
in combination with glade.  I must say that doing this with Python is so much more
fun than when I did a more limited package with a proprietary add-on to Fortran!
I also like that fact I don't have to pay anyone for the privilege of using the
software:) 

5.4 Some introduction to using Python for web programming.  I currently have
a web site I created and being able add some more dynamic content might 
prove useful. 

5.5  Extending Python by interfacing to Fortran code.  This will be on my 
to-do list as I move into using Python as a front-end for more heavy-duty
number-crunching software. 

Sorry for the long e-mail but it does give some feed back from a newbie
who hopes to "graduate" in the not to distant future:)

                                  Delbert

 

From chad.netzer at gmail.com  Mon Feb 12 03:20:04 2007
From: chad.netzer at gmail.com (Chad Netzer)
Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2007 18:20:04 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] [Offtopic] Vim author (Bram M.) talk at Google,
	this Tues 2/13/07 at 7 pm
Message-ID: <a14a87410702111820k5ff02390sfa309089feac4a82@mail.gmail.com>

I apologize if this is offtopic, but since JJ mentioned Vim in his talk a
couple months ago, it might be relevant to a few of you.

Bram Moolenaar will be at Google this Tuesday night (2/13/07 @ 7 pm),
giving a talk entitled:

"Seven habits for effective text editing, 2.0"

More information at the Vim homepage and Google Code blog:

www.vim.org
http://google-code-updates.blogspot.com/2007/02/open-source-developers-google-speaker.html

Chad

From spmcinerney at hotmail.com  Mon Feb 12 05:49:00 2007
From: spmcinerney at hotmail.com (Stephen McInerney)
Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2007 20:49:00 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] Discussion for newbies/beginner night talks
In-Reply-To: <200702111801.31819.ddf@lka.com>
Message-ID: <BAY131-F2511280DF7225D1D034DA7A0910@phx.gbl>

Delbert,

Do you not use the Python wrapping of VTK (C++) for visualization?
And there's an open-source fluid dynamics package called MayaVi that sits on 
top
of VTK and can also be used to produce pretty good visualizations.
These are included in Enthought Python for Windows distribution.

>4. My interest in Python is for developing GUI-based data displays and 
>analysis
>of the results from  my software which models unsteady free-surface
>flow in rivers, canals, storm sewers, and related structures.  I'm also 
>interested
>in the scientific and numerical packages in Python: numpy, scipy, 
>matplotlib,
>etc.
>
>
>5.3 Some talks on experience with various graphical interfaces: TK, GTK, 
>pyQT, etc.
>I currently have  some experience with TK, having constructed an 
>interactive package
>to create 2-D time-series plots of flows, and elevations during flood 
>events.
>I have not had time to give another interface a try.   GTK sounds 
>interesting
>in combination with glade.  I must say that doing this with Python is so 
>much more
>fun than when I did a more limited package with a proprietary add-on to 
>Fortran!
>I also like that fact I don't have to pay anyone for the privilege of using 
>the
>software:)

>5.5  Extending Python by interfacing to Fortran code.  This will be on my
>to-do list as I move into using Python as a front-end for more heavy-duty
>number-crunching software.

(NOSC have done this for atmospheric forecasting.
Also SciPy conference 07 will be in San Diego, should be a good event.)

Regards,
Stephen

_________________________________________________________________
Check out all that glitters with the MSN Entertainment Guide to the Academy 
Awards?   http://movies.msn.com/movies/oscars2007/?icid=ncoscartagline2


From jim at well.com  Mon Feb 12 22:17:29 2007
From: jim at well.com (jim stockford)
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2007 13:17:29 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] call for more March meeting presenters
Message-ID: <eb7ac23521f11551fcf6aa5d6cbbb4ae@well.com>


    We've got promises from Jason, Drew, and JJ to
report on what they think is interesting at PyCon
for the bayPIGgies March 8 meeting.
    If you're going to PyCon, please volunteer to
tell us what you think was interesting.
    If you know someone going to PyCon, volunteer
them, please.
thanks,
jim at well.com


From cbc at unc.edu  Tue Feb 13 00:11:07 2007
From: cbc at unc.edu (Chris Calloway)
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2007 18:11:07 -0500
Subject: [Baypiggies] Zope 3 Boot Camp early bird registration deadline near
Message-ID: <45D0F40B.9080706@unc.edu>

The early bird registration deadline for Camp 5 and the BBQ Sprint is
Wednesday, February 14:

http://trizpug.org/boot-camp/camp5/

You can save $50 by registering early. Registration ends Friday March 2.

-- 
Sincerely,

Chris Calloway
http://www.seacoos.org
office: 332 Chapman Hall   phone: (919) 962-4323
mail: Campus Box #3300, UNC-CH, Chapel Hill, NC 27599


From spmcinerney at hotmail.com  Tue Feb 13 05:39:07 2007
From: spmcinerney at hotmail.com (Stephen McInerney)
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2007 20:39:07 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] Discussion for newbies/beginner night talks / VTK,
	Enthought
In-Reply-To: <45D10E6E.1060304@ingres.com>
Message-ID: <BAY131-F11C373FCF4D3F87F3E6E3DA0900@phx.gbl>

Chris,

- Enthought is an awesome Windows bundle with
scientific-batteries-very-included, even if it does trail releases of
Python itself by ~1yr. (currently at Python 2.4.3)
It takes all the headache out of installing compatible
versions of multiple numeric and visualization packages, which is
seriously painful.

- Best place to ask your Ubuntu / transplanted binary question is on
'enthon-dev' list. https://mail.enthought.com/mailman/listinfo
(also has 'enthought-announce' and other lists)
I suspect they do not support that.

- I am not aware of other VTK users in BayPIGgies but I think it's good for 
scientific apps;
I know quite a few scientific users use GTK.
I never encountered any of the issues you did.
Either try Enthought Python on XP (should be easy), or try reporting and
troubleshooting the individual packages like VTK (more painful).

Regards,
Stephen

_________________________________________________________________
FREE online classifieds from Windows Live Expo ? buy and sell with people 
you know 
http://clk.atdmt.com/MSN/go/msnnkwex0010000001msn/direct/01/?href=http://expo.live.com?s_cid=Hotmail_tagline_12/06


From jim at well.com  Tue Feb 13 18:27:51 2007
From: jim at well.com (jim stockford)
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2007 09:27:51 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] [Offtopic] Vim author (Bram M.) talk at Google,
	this Tues 2/13/07 at 7 pm
In-Reply-To: <a14a87410702111820k5ff02390sfa309089feac4a82@mail.gmail.com>
References: <a14a87410702111820k5ff02390sfa309089feac4a82@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <2c54497d0f1e7929df7ee820ff30d2e2@well.com>


    seems on topic to me--vim is my favorite, and
editing techniques seem germane to the group.

On Feb 11, 2007, at 6:20 PM, Chad Netzer wrote:

> I apologize if this is offtopic, but since JJ mentioned Vim in his  
> talk a
> couple months ago, it might be relevant to a few of you.
>
> Bram Moolenaar will be at Google this Tuesday night (2/13/07 @ 7 pm),
> giving a talk entitled:
>
> "Seven habits for effective text editing, 2.0"
>
> More information at the Vim homepage and Google Code blog:
>
> www.vim.org
> http://google-code-updates.blogspot.com/2007/02/open-source- 
> developers-google-speaker.html
>
> Chad
> _______________________________________________
> Baypiggies mailing list
> Baypiggies at python.org
> To change your subscription options or unsubscribe:
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies
>


From cbc at unc.edu  Mon Feb 12 19:30:29 2007
From: cbc at unc.edu (Chris Calloway)
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2007 13:30:29 -0500
Subject: [Baypiggies] Zope 3 Boot Camp early bird registration deadline near
Message-ID: <45D0B245.6040802@unc.edu>

The early bird registration deadline for Camp 5 and the BBQ Sprint is 
Wednesday, February 14:

http://trizpug.org/boot-camp/camp5/

You can save $50 by registering early. Registration ends Friday March 2.

-- 
Sincerely,

Chris Calloway
http://www.seacoos.org
office: 332 Chapman Hall   phone: (919) 962-4323
mail: Campus Box #3300, UNC-CH, Chapel Hill, NC 27599

From jjinux at gmail.com  Tue Feb 13 23:33:04 2007
From: jjinux at gmail.com (Shannon -jj Behrens)
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2007 14:33:04 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] Discussion for newbies/beginner night talks
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20070209204012.00be9ae8@localhost>
References: <1171081738.2A2879EE@gf28.dngr.org>
	<5.1.0.14.0.20070209204012.00be9ae8@localhost>
Message-ID: <c41f67b90702131433r44e8521av49cc008fe877861@mail.gmail.com>

On 2/9/07, Dennis Reinhardt <DennisR at dair.com> wrote:
> At 08:28 PM 2/9/2007, Laszlo Antal wrote:
> >Hi,
> >This is a great thread.
> >I want to thank everyone for sharing their wisdom.
> >Keep it coming.
>
> I *was* going to duck out because I was outnumbered by those favoring
> triple quoting.
>
> Yes, triple quoting can work for simple situations.  The triple quoting
> examples displayed in this thread have been just that: simple.  They do not
> include conditionally executed code or do parameter substitution.  What
> they do is obscure the block structure of the code.
>
> Here is a code fragment from my talk last night (foil 15, I believe).  How
> would you re-write this to utilize triple quoting?  The task here is to
> build a two level visual tree structure:
>
> # build entire initial tree structure
> def init_tree(ht_obj):
>      html = "<table border=0>"
>      index = 0
>      last_exe = ""
>      for xml_entry in util_actwin.display_list("enm", "+"):
>          exe_name = str_extract(xml_entry, ["enm"])
>          keye   = safe_int(str_extract(xml_entry, ["key"]))
>          act = str_extract(xml_entry, ["act"])
>          #logger("init_tree %s %s" % (keye, exe_name))
>          fname, exe = exe_name.split(".")
>          if fname != last_exe:
>              html += "<tr>"
>              if fname == expanded_node:
>                  html += "<td><img src=image/slct32.gif border=0></td>"
>              else:
>                  html += "\r\n<td><a
> href=edt_main.py?slct=expand&fname=%s>" % fname
>                  html += "<%s></a></td>\r\n" % hovered_img(ht_obj, index)
>              html += "<td><img src=%s width=32 height=32></td>" %
> get_program_image(fname)
>              html += "<td>%s</td>" % fname
>              html += "<td>&nbsp;</td>"
>              html += "</tr>"
>          if fname == expanded_node:
>              html += "<tr>"
>              html += "<td>&nbsp;</td>"
>              parm_index = safe_int_default(ht_obj.param("index"), -1)
>              if parm_index == keye:
>                  html += "<td><img src=image/slct32.gif border=0></td>"
>                  html += "<td><img src=%s " % get_action_image(xml_entry)
>                  html +=     "width=32 height=32 border=0></td>"
>              else:
>                  html += "<td><a href=edt_main.py?slct=edit"
>                  html +=     "&class=tree_open32"
>                  html +=     "&index=%s"       % keye
>                  html +=     "&act=%s"         % act
>                  html +=     "><%s></a></td>" % hovered_img(ht_obj, index)
>                  html += "<td><img src=%s " % get_action_image(xml_entry)
>                  html +=     "width=16 height=16 border=0></td>"
>              html += "<td>%s</td>" % get_caption(xml_entry)
>              html += "</tr>"
>          else:
>              pass
>          last_exe = fname
>          index += 1
>      html += "</table>"
>      return html

Seriously, that's what a templating language is used for!  I recommend
Cheetah, Myghty, Mako, or Genshi, depending on your tastes.  Please
excuse me if I say that the above is *ugly*.  It's much better to
break what you can into Python, and use a templating language for the
rest.

Best Regards,
-jj

-- 
http://jjinux.blogspot.com/

From tungwaiyip at yahoo.com  Tue Feb 13 23:55:25 2007
From: tungwaiyip at yahoo.com (Tung Wai Yip)
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2007 14:55:25 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] Output generation - (string operations/triple
	quote/template)
In-Reply-To: <c41f67b90702131433r44e8521av49cc008fe877861@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1171081738.2A2879EE@gf28.dngr.org>
	<5.1.0.14.0.20070209204012.00be9ae8@localhost>
	<c41f67b90702131433r44e8521av49cc008fe877861@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <op.tnplynhaoiuain@smtp.mail.yahoo.com>

On Tue, 13 Feb 2007 14:33:04 -0800, Shannon -jj Behrens <jjinux at gmail.com>  
wrote:

> On 2/9/07, Dennis Reinhardt <DennisR at dair.com> wrote:
>> At 08:28 PM 2/9/2007, Laszlo Antal wrote:
>> >Hi,
>> >This is a great thread.
>> >I want to thank everyone for sharing their wisdom.
>> >Keep it coming.
>>
>> I *was* going to duck out because I was outnumbered by those favoring
>> triple quoting.
>>
>> Yes, triple quoting can work for simple situations.  The triple quoting
>> examples displayed in this thread have been just that: simple.  They do  
>> not
>> include conditionally executed code or do parameter substitution.  What
>> they do is obscure the block structure of the code.
>>
>> Here is a code fragment from my talk last night (foil 15, I believe).   
>> How
>> would you re-write this to utilize triple quoting?  The task here is to
>> build a two level visual tree structure:
>>
>> # build entire initial tree structure
>> def init_tree(ht_obj):
>>      html = "<table border=0>"
>>      index = 0
>>      last_exe = ""
>>      for xml_entry in util_actwin.display_list("enm", "+"):
>>          exe_name = str_extract(xml_entry, ["enm"])
>>          keye   = safe_int(str_extract(xml_entry, ["key"]))
>>          act = str_extract(xml_entry, ["act"])
>>          #logger("init_tree %s %s" % (keye, exe_name))
>>          fname, exe = exe_name.split(".")
>>          if fname != last_exe:
>>              html += "<tr>"
>>              if fname == expanded_node:
>>                  html += "<td><img src=image/slct32.gif border=0></td>"
>>              else:
>>                  html += "\r\n<td><a
>> href=edt_main.py?slct=expand&fname=%s>" % fname
>>                  html += "<%s></a></td>\r\n" % hovered_img(ht_obj,  
>> index)
>>              html += "<td><img src=%s width=32 height=32></td>" %
>> get_program_image(fname)
>>              html += "<td>%s</td>" % fname
>>              html += "<td>&nbsp;</td>"
>>              html += "</tr>"
>>          if fname == expanded_node:
>>              html += "<tr>"
>>              html += "<td>&nbsp;</td>"
>>              parm_index = safe_int_default(ht_obj.param("index"), -1)
>>              if parm_index == keye:
>>                  html += "<td><img src=image/slct32.gif border=0></td>"
>>                  html += "<td><img src=%s " %  
>> get_action_image(xml_entry)
>>                  html +=     "width=32 height=32 border=0></td>"
>>              else:
>>                  html += "<td><a href=edt_main.py?slct=edit"
>>                  html +=     "&class=tree_open32"
>>                  html +=     "&index=%s"       % keye
>>                  html +=     "&act=%s"         % act
>>                  html +=     "><%s></a></td>" % hovered_img(ht_obj,  
>> index)
>>                  html += "<td><img src=%s " %  
>> get_action_image(xml_entry)
>>                  html +=     "width=16 height=16 border=0></td>"
>>              html += "<td>%s</td>" % get_caption(xml_entry)
>>              html += "</tr>"
>>          else:
>>              pass
>>          last_exe = fname
>>          index += 1
>>      html += "</table>"
>>      return html
>
> Seriously, that's what a templating language is used for!  I recommend
> Cheetah, Myghty, Mako, or Genshi, depending on your tastes.  Please
> excuse me if I say that the above is *ugly*.  It's much better to
> break what you can into Python, and use a templating language for the
> rest.
>
> Best Regards,
> -jj
>


My HTMLTestRunner is a real world example of generating moderately complex  
text output using triple quoted text blocks.

     http://tungwaiyip.info/software/HTMLTestRunner.html

I agree with JJ that template language is another good alternative,  
especially for more complex generation. While this is subjective and  
everyone have different criteria, I consider the approach of interleaving  
Python code with the target output hard to maintain. It goes back to the  
Java Servlet approach and the many addon projects later to provide better  
alternatives.

Wai Yip



From jjinux at gmail.com  Wed Feb 14 00:02:34 2007
From: jjinux at gmail.com (Shannon -jj Behrens)
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2007 15:02:34 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] Discussion for newbies/beginner night talks
In-Reply-To: <200702111801.31819.ddf@lka.com>
References: <a14a87410702091430v63871956sf1cc2f7ef55b18b9@mail.gmail.com>
	<8249c4ac0702091604o54e306cfu8f60dabe670f57aa@mail.gmail.com>
	<32ef362c7a25f2e88a66b9d27384ef2a@well.com>
	<200702111801.31819.ddf@lka.com>
Message-ID: <c41f67b90702131502v6c6ff1fcif533a46a8c584ec9@mail.gmail.com>

> 4. My interest in Python is for developing GUI-based data displays and analysis
> of the results from  my software which models unsteady free-surface
> flow in rivers, canals, storm sewers, and related structures.

Neat!

> 5.2 A recent "newbie graduate", whose only exposure to object-oriented programming
> came from Python, sharing how they came to understand, view, and use classes,
> inheritance, methods, etc.
> What attracts them to that approach and how is it
> better than the non-object oriented approaches? Comparisons with other object-oriented
> languages are useless to me but might be useful for other newbies.

I think there are many of us, myself included, that could give this
talk if there was enough interest.

> 5.3 Some talks on experience with various graphical interfaces: TK, GTK, pyQT, etc.
> I currently have  some experience with TK, having constructed an interactive package
> to create 2-D time-series plots of flows, and elevations during flood events.
> I have not had time to give another interface a try.   GTK sounds interesting
> in combination with glade.

Drew is quite good with Tk.

I gave a talk on PyGTK and Glade over a year ago, but attendance was
smaller than some of my other talks.  If there were more interest, I
could do it again.

> 5.4 Some introduction to using Python for web programming.  I currently have
> a web site I created and being able add some more dynamic content might
> prove useful.

There's no end to the number of different Web technology talks we can
have.  We had a Twisted talk a while ago.  Perhaps Ben Bangert or I
can give a talk on Pylons + either Mako or Genshi.  We've covered
Plone.  We had a Django talk.

Ok, more Python tidbits:

#) We could quickly cover list comprehensions, generators, and closures.

#) Use generator expressions to transform iterators on the fly.  For instance:

>>> f = open("junk.txt")
>>> f = (line.lower() for line in f)

Now I can pass f to somewhere else, and it'll lower case the lines *on the fly*.

>>> for line in f:
...     print line,
...
foo
bar
bat
howdy!

Happy Hacking!
-jj

-- 
http://jjinux.blogspot.com/

From jjinux at gmail.com  Wed Feb 14 00:15:52 2007
From: jjinux at gmail.com (Shannon -jj Behrens)
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2007 15:15:52 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] Discussion for newbies/beginner night talks
In-Reply-To: <c41f67b90702131502v6c6ff1fcif533a46a8c584ec9@mail.gmail.com>
References: <a14a87410702091430v63871956sf1cc2f7ef55b18b9@mail.gmail.com>
	<8249c4ac0702091604o54e306cfu8f60dabe670f57aa@mail.gmail.com>
	<32ef362c7a25f2e88a66b9d27384ef2a@well.com>
	<200702111801.31819.ddf@lka.com>
	<c41f67b90702131502v6c6ff1fcif533a46a8c584ec9@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <c41f67b90702131515n46b69e4epe548be85eb4e2407@mail.gmail.com>

#) Using try/except for flow control:

"""Try to actually log the user in.

BASIC IDEA: A million things can go wrong, and there are several ways to
succeed.  You want to check for the ways that can succeed and continue on as
soon as one of them does.  You want the non-local flow of control that
exceptions provide, but you need it for both success *and* failure.

"""

def doLoginAction(self):
    """Try to actually log the user in."""
    class PasswordAccepted(Exception): pass
    try:
        if check_password():        # This may raise KeyError.
            raise PasswordAccepted
        do_more_expensive_work()
        and_even_more_expensive_work()
        if check_other_password():  #  This may raise KeyError.
            raise PasswordAccepted
        raise KeyError
    except KeyError:
        self.setError("Invalid username or password.")
        return
    except PasswordAccepted:
        pass
    continue_successfully()

From jjinux at gmail.com  Wed Feb 14 00:16:08 2007
From: jjinux at gmail.com (Shannon -jj Behrens)
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2007 15:16:08 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] Discussion for newbies/beginner night talks
In-Reply-To: <c41f67b90702131515n46b69e4epe548be85eb4e2407@mail.gmail.com>
References: <a14a87410702091430v63871956sf1cc2f7ef55b18b9@mail.gmail.com>
	<8249c4ac0702091604o54e306cfu8f60dabe670f57aa@mail.gmail.com>
	<32ef362c7a25f2e88a66b9d27384ef2a@well.com>
	<200702111801.31819.ddf@lka.com>
	<c41f67b90702131502v6c6ff1fcif533a46a8c584ec9@mail.gmail.com>
	<c41f67b90702131515n46b69e4epe548be85eb4e2407@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <c41f67b90702131516m1adb07ffs60ff648a15bb97d5@mail.gmail.com>

"""Demonstrate function decorators.

BASIC IDEA: Use a function decorator to tell when and how a function should be
logged.  All kinds of things can be logged automatically, including the
function arguments, how long it took to run, and (theoretically) even the
stack.  The syntax looks like:

    @logged("post")
    def hello(name):
        print "Hello,", name

"""

import sys
import time


def logged(when):

    """Log every invocation of the function.

    when -- This should be "pre" or "post".  If "post", then I'll also time
        the function, which may be useful for profiling.

    """

    def log(f, *args, **kargs):
        print >> sys.stderr, """\
Called:
  function: %s
  args: %s
  kargs: %s""" % (`f`, `args`, `kargs`)

    def pre_logged(f):
        def wrapper(*args, **kargs):
            log(f, *args, **kargs)
            return f(*args, **kargs)
        return wrapper

    def post_logged(f):
        def wrapper(*args, **kargs):
            start = time.time()
            try:
                return f(*args, **kargs)
            finally:
                log(f, *args, **kargs)
                print >> sys.stderr, """\
  time delta: %s""" % (time.time() - start)
        return wrapper

    try:
        return {"pre": pre_logged, "post": post_logged}[when]
    except KeyError, e:
        raise ValueError(e)


@logged("post")
def hello(name):
    print "Hello,", name


hello("World!")

From mac at Wireless.Com  Wed Feb 14 00:27:03 2007
From: mac at Wireless.Com (Mike Cheponis)
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2007 15:27:03 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Baypiggies] Output generation - (string operations/triple
 quote/template)
In-Reply-To: <op.tnplynhaoiuain@smtp.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <1171081738.2A2879EE@gf28.dngr.org>
	<5.1.0.14.0.20070209204012.00be9ae8@localhost>
	<c41f67b90702131433r44e8521av49cc008fe877861@mail.gmail.com>
	<op.tnplynhaoiuain@smtp.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.NEB.4.64.0702131524440.18614@S.culver.net>

On Tue, 13 Feb 2007, Tung Wai Yip wrote:

> My HTMLTestRunner is a real world example of generating moderately complex
> text output using triple quoted text blocks.
>
>     http://tungwaiyip.info/software/HTMLTestRunner.html
>
> I agree with JJ that template language is another good alternative,
> especially for more complex generation. While this is subjective and
> everyone have different criteria, I consider the approach of interleaving
> Python code with the target output hard to maintain. It goes back to the
> Java Servlet approach and the many addon projects later to provide better
> alternatives.

Are you sort-of saying that having a separate template is like having a ".h" file, and that keeping code+data local in the program makes things easier to understand, and, therefore, perhaps Python needs to include better templating features?

(Yes, I know I'm putting lots of words in your mouth, but I'd appreciate more detail on what you mean.)

Thanks,

-Mike

From jjinux at gmail.com  Wed Feb 14 00:33:53 2007
From: jjinux at gmail.com (Shannon -jj Behrens)
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2007 15:33:53 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] Discussion for newbies/beginner night talks
In-Reply-To: <c41f67b90702131516m1adb07ffs60ff648a15bb97d5@mail.gmail.com>
References: <a14a87410702091430v63871956sf1cc2f7ef55b18b9@mail.gmail.com>
	<8249c4ac0702091604o54e306cfu8f60dabe670f57aa@mail.gmail.com>
	<32ef362c7a25f2e88a66b9d27384ef2a@well.com>
	<200702111801.31819.ddf@lka.com>
	<c41f67b90702131502v6c6ff1fcif533a46a8c584ec9@mail.gmail.com>
	<c41f67b90702131515n46b69e4epe548be85eb4e2407@mail.gmail.com>
	<c41f67b90702131516m1adb07ffs60ff648a15bb97d5@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <c41f67b90702131533u71d54477wbf30bdf8bff6d03b@mail.gmail.com>

Python experts know about this, but Python newbies might not:

#) Monkey patching!

At runtime, anything is hackable.  Sometimes you have to rely on a
third party library that does the wrong thing.  Now, you should start
by submitting a bug or a patch.  In the meantime, you still need to
fix it to solve your own needs.  Modifying third party packages sucks.
 It's not fun to maintain custom versions of a bunch of third party
packages.  Both packaging and upgrading suddenly becomes yucky.
Instead of actually editing the code, sometimes you can get by with
monkey patching, that is, fixing it at runtime.  That way, you don't
have to modify the other code.  This is best used sparingly,
carefully, and lightly.  You also have to remember to undo your monkey
patches once the problem gets resolved ;)

Ok, let's say I have a naughty third-party library that thinks it
lives in DOS land.  However, it only does bad things when I'm not
looking.  I haven't been able to find the culprit.  I need to spot it
red handed, preferably with a stack trace!  I know it's using the
os.path.join function.  Hence, I use an undercover decoy version of
os.path.join to nab him in the act!

>>> import os
>>>
>>> # Here's an example of naughty code that thinks it lives in DOS:
>>> os.path.join(r"\usr", "local")
'\\usr/local'
>>>
>>> # Let's replace os.path.join with my own "special" version.  Notice how
>>> # I'm using *args so that any number of arguments will get carried through
>>> # seamlessly.  Correctly using *args and *kargs is an important part of
>>> # wrapping other functions.
>>>
>>> def my_join(*args):
...     """Figure out who thinks he's living in DOS land."""
...     for arg in args:
...         if arg.find("\\") != -1:
...             raise ValueError("This ain't DOS bub!")
...     return os.path.old_join(*args)
...
>>> # Swap in my new version.
>>> os.path.old_join = os.path.join
>>> os.path.join = my_join
>>>
>>> # Well behaved code is safe:
>>> os.path.join("/usr", "local")
'/usr/local'
>>> # Naughty code isn't!
>>> os.path.join(r"\usr", "local")
Traceback (most recent call last):
  File "<stdin>", line 1, in ?
  File "<stdin>", line 5, in my_join
ValueError: This ain't DOS bub!

Happy Hacking!
-jj

From wescpy at gmail.com  Wed Feb 14 00:50:35 2007
From: wescpy at gmail.com (wesley chun)
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2007 15:50:35 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] Output generation - (string operations/triple
	quote/template)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.NEB.4.64.0702131524440.18614@S.culver.net>
References: <1171081738.2A2879EE@gf28.dngr.org>
	<5.1.0.14.0.20070209204012.00be9ae8@localhost>
	<c41f67b90702131433r44e8521av49cc008fe877861@mail.gmail.com>
	<op.tnplynhaoiuain@smtp.mail.yahoo.com>
	<Pine.NEB.4.64.0702131524440.18614@S.culver.net>
Message-ID: <78b3a9580702131550o1344a107sebaf312155a8b396@mail.gmail.com>

> > I consider the approach of interleaving
> > Python code with the target output hard to maintain. It goes back to the
> > Java Servlet approach and the many addon projects later to provide better
> > alternatives.
>
> Are you sort-of saying that having a separate template is like having a ".h" file, and that keeping code+data local in the program makes things easier to understand, and, therefore, perhaps Python needs to include better templating features?


what i'm reading from what wai-yip said is that when you have Python
code and are actively trying to maintain its structure, attempting to
interleave Python code along with, say XML, SQL, etc., is difficult to
maintain, because you will end up wrecking/ruining/destroying the
structure of at least one, if not all, just to maintain *structure*,
say nothing of anything else. there is also a hint of "what happens
when we try to allow insertion of (programming) logic inside a
structured document processing format like HTML." that's just what *i*
read... to each his/her own!

i understand dennis' logic in trying to preserve structure in his
code, and why he is doing it -- i've seen lots of code like this, and
to some extent, it works in JS, however, for large and/or long-running
Python applications, i cannot justify the CPU time and performance
lost in doing malloc()+realloc()+realloc()+realloc()+realloc()+realloc()+realloc()+realloc()+realloc()...,
not to mention any internal heap fragmentation that may result from
it.

here's a clip from the man page:
       The order and contiguity of storage allocated by successive  calls  to
       realloc()  is unspecified. The pointer returned if the allocation suc-
       ceeds shall be suitably aligned so  that  it  may  be  assigned  to  a
       pointer  to  any type of object and then used to access such an object
       in the space allocated (until the space is explicitly freed or reallo-
       cated).

my process mgmt background is now a little rusty, so remind me: does
the OS help "defrag" heap chunks at all during the lifetime of a
process?  if so, how often?  is it time- or capacity-based?

just curious,
-- wesley
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
"Core Python Programming", Prentice Hall, (c)2007,2001
    http://corepython.com

wesley.j.chun :: wescpy-at-gmail.com
python training and technical consulting
cyberweb.consulting : silicon valley, ca
http://cyberwebconsulting.com

From tungwaiyip at yahoo.com  Wed Feb 14 01:17:24 2007
From: tungwaiyip at yahoo.com (Tung Wai Yip)
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2007 16:17:24 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] Output generation - (string operations/triple
	quote/template)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.NEB.4.64.0702131524440.18614@S.culver.net>
References: <1171081738.2A2879EE@gf28.dngr.org>
	<5.1.0.14.0.20070209204012.00be9ae8@localhost>
	<c41f67b90702131433r44e8521av49cc008fe877861@mail.gmail.com>
	<op.tnplynhaoiuain@smtp.mail.yahoo.com>
	<Pine.NEB.4.64.0702131524440.18614@S.culver.net>
Message-ID: <op.tnpprahdoiuain@smtp.mail.yahoo.com>

> On Tue, 13 Feb 2007, Tung Wai Yip wrote:
>
>> My HTMLTestRunner is a real world example of generating moderately  
>> complex
>> text output using triple quoted text blocks.
>>
>>     http://tungwaiyip.info/software/HTMLTestRunner.html
>>
>> I agree with JJ that template language is another good alternative,
>> especially for more complex generation. While this is subjective and
>> everyone have different criteria, I consider the approach of  
>> interleaving
>> Python code with the target output hard to maintain. It goes back to the
>> Java Servlet approach and the many addon projects later to provide  
>> better
>> alternatives.
>
> Are you sort-of saying that having a separate template is like having a  
> ".h" file, and that keeping code+data local in the program makes things  
> easier to understand, and, therefore, perhaps Python needs to include  
> better templating features?
>
> (Yes, I know I'm putting lots of words in your mouth, but I'd appreciate  
> more detail on what you mean.)
>
> Thanks,
>
> -Mike


Sorry for not explaining myself sufficiently. I was contrasting different  
approach of generating non-trivial text output using Python.


1. Use string operations (+, %, etc)

This is the most straight forward approach with no dependency on external  
library. With Python code it can make use of arbitrary logic. The con is  
it leads to mixing of Python code and target text that made it hard to  
read. Too much Python logic sprinkled inside would make the flow  
especially hard to follow.


2. Use triple quoted text block

This is the similar to 1. except you can group more target text into a  
larger unit, thus provide a higher degree of separation of Python code and  
the target output. Also the ' and " characters do not need to be escaped  
inside a text block, therefore it is a big boon in readability when you  
are generating text with a lot of quotes (like HTML or XML).


3. Use a template langauge

By template language it means the likes of Cheetah, Myghty, Mako, or  
Genshi as JJ mentioned. The parallel in Java world is JSP and Velocity.  
They are routinely used in webpage generation because they are more  
powerful and makes complex project easier to maintain. It also mean to  
create an interfacing point between programmers and designers. The con is  
the dependency on third party library, more new language to learn and also  
a risk of lock-in to a third-party language. Also while the goal is  
provide a high degree of separation between code and the template, in  
practice it is never perfect and we often find code spill over to the  
template.


Depends on the complexity of the problem, all approach has their  
appropiate use. In theory more separation is better. But if you have a  
simple problem, it maybe burdensome to invoke a template library and edit  
two separate files.

I especially emphasize triple quote not because it the best solution to  
every problem but that it is an overlooked feature in Python that often  
significantly improve string operations as oppose to using a lot of string  
concatenations. It is also a big improvement in readability.


Wai Yip






From jjinux at gmail.com  Wed Feb 14 01:42:05 2007
From: jjinux at gmail.com (Shannon -jj Behrens)
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2007 16:42:05 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] Discussion for newbies/beginner night talks
In-Reply-To: <c41f67b90702131533u71d54477wbf30bdf8bff6d03b@mail.gmail.com>
References: <a14a87410702091430v63871956sf1cc2f7ef55b18b9@mail.gmail.com>
	<8249c4ac0702091604o54e306cfu8f60dabe670f57aa@mail.gmail.com>
	<32ef362c7a25f2e88a66b9d27384ef2a@well.com>
	<200702111801.31819.ddf@lka.com>
	<c41f67b90702131502v6c6ff1fcif533a46a8c584ec9@mail.gmail.com>
	<c41f67b90702131515n46b69e4epe548be85eb4e2407@mail.gmail.com>
	<c41f67b90702131516m1adb07ffs60ff648a15bb97d5@mail.gmail.com>
	<c41f67b90702131533u71d54477wbf30bdf8bff6d03b@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <c41f67b90702131642k114e82ddt7be6754245a6dbc3@mail.gmail.com>

#) Unlike a lot of languages, Python has a nice *mix* of the
programming paradigms.  It's not just OO.  You should embrace this.
Let me run down the list with some examples:

Procedural:

Code everything in functions.  You can put functions inside of
functions and lexical scoping works like in Pascal.

Functional:

>>> l = [1, 2, 3, None, 1.2]
>>> filter(None, l)
[1, 2, 3, 1.2]
>>> l = [1, 2, 3]
>>> filter(lambda x: x > 2, l)
[3]
>>> map(str, l)
['1', '2', '3']

>>> # A closure.
>>> def greeter(name):
...     def greet():
...         print "Hello, my name is %s" % name
...     return greet
...
>>> greet = greeter('JJ')
>>> greet()
Hello, my name is JJ
>>> # Now I can pass my special greet somewhere else.

Modern functional programming a la Haskell:

>>> l = [1, 2, 3, None, 1.2]
>>> [i for i in l if l is not None]
[1, 2, 3, None, 1.2]
>>> l = [1, 2, 3]
>>> [i for i in l if i > 2]
[3]
>>> [str(i) for i in l]
['1', '2', '3']

Object oriented:

>>> class Fruit:
...     def good_for_you(self):
...         return True
...
>>> class Orange(Fruit):
...     def taste(self):
...         return "sweet"
...
>>> class Lemon(Fruit):
...     def taste(self):
...         return "sour"
...
>>> fruit = [Orange(), Lemon()]
>>> for i in fruit:
...     print i.__class__.__name__
...     print i.good_for_you()
...     print i.taste()
...
Orange
True
sweet
Lemon
True
sour

But unlike Java, we have bound methods:

>>> taste = Orange().taste
>>> # I can now pass taste around as a function pointer.
...
>>> taste()
'sweet'

Imperative:

a = 0
a += 1  # That's a functional programming joke ;)

Aspect oriented programming:

>>> # Functions:
...
>>> def sum(a, b):
...     print a + b
...
>>> # Aspects:
...
>>> def wrap_function(f):
...     def inner(*args, **kargs):
...         print "Calling %s with %r %r" % (
...             f.func_name, args, kargs)
...         return f(*args, **kargs)
...     return inner
...
>>> # Weave them together:
...
>>> sum = wrap_function(sum)
>>>
>>> # Test:
...
>>> sum(1, 2)
Calling sum with (1, 2) {}
3

Logic-based:

Here's a Python-take on Prolog:
http://aspn.activestate.com/ASPN/Cookbook/Python/Recipe/303057

Ok, I'm out of paradigms ;)

Happy Hacking!
-jj

From DennisR at dair.com  Wed Feb 14 01:44:31 2007
From: DennisR at dair.com (Dennis Reinhardt)
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2007 16:44:31 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] Output generation - (string operations/triple
 quote/template)
In-Reply-To: <78b3a9580702131550o1344a107sebaf312155a8b396@mail.gmail.co
 m>
References: <Pine.NEB.4.64.0702131524440.18614@S.culver.net>
	<1171081738.2A2879EE@gf28.dngr.org>
	<5.1.0.14.0.20070209204012.00be9ae8@localhost>
	<c41f67b90702131433r44e8521av49cc008fe877861@mail.gmail.com>
	<op.tnplynhaoiuain@smtp.mail.yahoo.com>
	<Pine.NEB.4.64.0702131524440.18614@S.culver.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20070213161517.00bed4b8@localhost>

At 03:50 PM 2/13/2007, wesley chun wrote:
>i cannot justify the CPU time and performance
>lost in doing 
>malloc()+realloc()+realloc()+realloc()+realloc()+realloc()+realloc()+realloc()+realloc()..

We can quantify this, albeit abstractly.  The actual allocation and re-use 
of memory is not known to me.  The simplest case to consider is once 
allocated, memory is never re-claimed, also a worst case.  If we allocate a 
memory object N units in length, the memory impact is N.  If we allocate 
this in units of 1 by copy/append (a.k.a tail recursion), the impact is as 
bad as

         1+2+3+4 ....

or more generally N*(N+1)/2

For moderate N (say =10), the impact is 5.5X worse than allocating a single 
block of N.  For larger N, the N*(N+1)/2 gets bad fast.  If N is less than 
10, the impact is better than 5.5X.

A copy/append such as

         A += ...    [done 30 times]

can be re-expressed as

         X += ...    [done 10 times]
         Y += ...    [done 10 times]
         Z += ...    [done 10 times]
        A  + X + Y + Z [done once]

In DialogDevil, scanning and processing click actions against the running 
processes *is* a CPU drain and I have had to put a lot of optimization work 
into that.  In SpamAI, I had to pay lots of attention to efficiency of 
regular expressions I wrote.

HTML generation simply is not even a blip on the cpu radar screen for 
either program, both of which required optimization work.

Regards, Dennis





  ---------------------------------
| Dennis    | DennisR at dair.com    |
| Reinhardt | http://www.dair.com |
  ---------------------------------


From bsergean at gmail.com  Wed Feb 14 01:49:51 2007
From: bsergean at gmail.com (Benjamin Sergeant)
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2007 19:49:51 -0500
Subject: [Baypiggies] Output generation - (string operations/triple
	quote/template)
In-Reply-To: <op.tnpprahdoiuain@smtp.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <1171081738.2A2879EE@gf28.dngr.org>
	<5.1.0.14.0.20070209204012.00be9ae8@localhost>
	<c41f67b90702131433r44e8521av49cc008fe877861@mail.gmail.com>
	<op.tnplynhaoiuain@smtp.mail.yahoo.com>
	<Pine.NEB.4.64.0702131524440.18614@S.culver.net>
	<op.tnpprahdoiuain@smtp.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <1621f9fa0702131649w4a5592a0gf35b36c87808486e@mail.gmail.com>

If you want a very simple and easy to integrate templating engine you
might check this one:
http://pytof.googlecode.com/svn/trunk/pytof/ezt.py (1 file :)

Check the edna code or my humble pet project (pytof) for usage.

Benjamin.

ps:
I moved from triple quoting to templating and I think it was a good move ...


On 2/13/07, Tung Wai Yip <tungwaiyip at yahoo.com> wrote:
> > On Tue, 13 Feb 2007, Tung Wai Yip wrote:
> >
> >> My HTMLTestRunner is a real world example of generating moderately
> >> complex
> >> text output using triple quoted text blocks.
> >>
> >>     http://tungwaiyip.info/software/HTMLTestRunner.html
> >>
> >> I agree with JJ that template language is another good alternative,
> >> especially for more complex generation. While this is subjective and
> >> everyone have different criteria, I consider the approach of
> >> interleaving
> >> Python code with the target output hard to maintain. It goes back to the
> >> Java Servlet approach and the many addon projects later to provide
> >> better
> >> alternatives.
> >
> > Are you sort-of saying that having a separate template is like having a
> > ".h" file, and that keeping code+data local in the program makes things
> > easier to understand, and, therefore, perhaps Python needs to include
> > better templating features?
> >
> > (Yes, I know I'm putting lots of words in your mouth, but I'd appreciate
> > more detail on what you mean.)
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > -Mike
>
>
> Sorry for not explaining myself sufficiently. I was contrasting different
> approach of generating non-trivial text output using Python.
>
>
> 1. Use string operations (+, %, etc)
>
> This is the most straight forward approach with no dependency on external
> library. With Python code it can make use of arbitrary logic. The con is
> it leads to mixing of Python code and target text that made it hard to
> read. Too much Python logic sprinkled inside would make the flow
> especially hard to follow.
>
>
> 2. Use triple quoted text block
>
> This is the similar to 1. except you can group more target text into a
> larger unit, thus provide a higher degree of separation of Python code and
> the target output. Also the ' and " characters do not need to be escaped
> inside a text block, therefore it is a big boon in readability when you
> are generating text with a lot of quotes (like HTML or XML).
>
>
> 3. Use a template langauge
>
> By template language it means the likes of Cheetah, Myghty, Mako, or
> Genshi as JJ mentioned. The parallel in Java world is JSP and Velocity.
> They are routinely used in webpage generation because they are more
> powerful and makes complex project easier to maintain. It also mean to
> create an interfacing point between programmers and designers. The con is
> the dependency on third party library, more new language to learn and also
> a risk of lock-in to a third-party language. Also while the goal is
> provide a high degree of separation between code and the template, in
> practice it is never perfect and we often find code spill over to the
> template.
>
>
> Depends on the complexity of the problem, all approach has their
> appropiate use. In theory more separation is better. But if you have a
> simple problem, it maybe burdensome to invoke a template library and edit
> two separate files.
>
> I especially emphasize triple quote not because it the best solution to
> every problem but that it is an overlooked feature in Python that often
> significantly improve string operations as oppose to using a lot of string
> concatenations. It is also a big improvement in readability.
>
>
> Wai Yip
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Baypiggies mailing list
> Baypiggies at python.org
> To change your subscription options or unsubscribe:
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies
>

From aahz at pythoncraft.com  Wed Feb 14 04:47:46 2007
From: aahz at pythoncraft.com (Aahz)
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2007 19:47:46 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] Two distinct categories of newbies
In-Reply-To: <BAY131-F196C7B77B3649EA7530482A0920@phx.gbl>
References: <32ef362c7a25f2e88a66b9d27384ef2a@well.com>
	<BAY131-F196C7B77B3649EA7530482A0920@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <20070214034746.GA1076@panix.com>

On Sat, Feb 10, 2007, Stephen McInerney wrote:
>
> (e.g. I mentioned before the book "PERL to Python Migration" by Martin
> C Brown - it only addresses the syntax and library reference, but it's
> the best I've found.)

...unfortunately, that means it's still not good enough.  I won't say
it's the worst Python book I've seen, but it definitely ranks among the
worst.  It contains many errors and shows little awareness of Pythonic
style.

Speaking as someone who came to Python "from" Perl (I actually have a lot
of other languages under my belt), I think the best approach is to simply
learn Python on its own terms.  I beat my head against the wall for
almost two months before I started to "get it", and I blame trying to use
Python as if it were Perl for that.
-- 
Aahz (aahz at pythoncraft.com)           <*>         http://www.pythoncraft.com/

"I disrespectfully agree."  --SJM

From aahz at pythoncraft.com  Wed Feb 14 05:00:13 2007
From: aahz at pythoncraft.com (Aahz)
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2007 20:00:13 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] Discussion for newbies/beginner night talks
In-Reply-To: <c41f67b90702131515n46b69e4epe548be85eb4e2407@mail.gmail.com>
References: <a14a87410702091430v63871956sf1cc2f7ef55b18b9@mail.gmail.com>
	<8249c4ac0702091604o54e306cfu8f60dabe670f57aa@mail.gmail.com>
	<32ef362c7a25f2e88a66b9d27384ef2a@well.com>
	<200702111801.31819.ddf@lka.com>
	<c41f67b90702131502v6c6ff1fcif533a46a8c584ec9@mail.gmail.com>
	<c41f67b90702131515n46b69e4epe548be85eb4e2407@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20070214040013.GB1076@panix.com>

On Tue, Feb 13, 2007, Shannon -jj Behrens wrote:
>
> #) Using try/except for flow control:
> 
> """Try to actually log the user in.
> 
> BASIC IDEA: A million things can go wrong, and there are several ways to
> succeed.  You want to check for the ways that can succeed and continue on as
> soon as one of them does.  You want the non-local flow of control that
> exceptions provide, but you need it for both success *and* failure.
> 
> """
> 
> def doLoginAction(self):
>     """Try to actually log the user in."""
>     class PasswordAccepted(Exception): pass
>     try:
>         if check_password():        # This may raise KeyError.
>             raise PasswordAccepted
>         do_more_expensive_work()
>         and_even_more_expensive_work()
>         if check_other_password():  #  This may raise KeyError.
>             raise PasswordAccepted
>         raise KeyError
>     except KeyError:
>         self.setError("Invalid username or password.")
>         return
>     except PasswordAccepted:
>         pass
>     continue_successfully()

This really should not call setError(), it should simply raise
ValueError (ValueError is for invalid data).  Here's a more-complicated
working example from my TextDB.py module illustrating multiple levels of
control flow managed with exceptions:

class Excluded(StandardError):
    pass

class Found(StandardError):
    pass

class NotFound(StandardError):
    pass

def _fuzzy_match(string, filter):
    return string.find(filter) >= 0

def _exact_match(string, filter):
    return string == filter

# Includes by default are ANDed; excludes are always ORed
# Use "|" to OR includes; "!" indicates exclude
def filter(db, FilterString=None, fields=None, FuzzyMatch=True):
    includes, excludes = _buildFilters(FilterString)
    if fields is not None:
        fields = re_comma_field.split(fields)
        for i in range(len(fields)):
            fields[i] = fields[i].lower()
    if FuzzyMatch:
        match = _fuzzy_match
    else:
        match = _exact_match
    result = []
    for record in db:
        if fields is None:
            curr_fields = record.keys()
        else:
            curr_fields = []
            for field in fields:
                if field in record:
                    curr_fields.append(field)
        try:
            for field in curr_fields:
                for item in record[field]:
                    item = item.lower()
                    for filter in excludes:
                        if match(item, filter):
                            raise Excluded
        except Excluded:
            continue
        try:
            for ORlist in includes:
                for filter in ORlist:
                    try:
                        for field in curr_fields:
                            for item in record[field]:
                                if match(item, filter):
                                    raise Found
                    except Found:
                        break
                else:
                    raise NotFound
        except NotFound:
            continue
        else:
            result.append(record)
    return result
-- 
Aahz (aahz at pythoncraft.com)           <*>         http://www.pythoncraft.com/

"I disrespectfully agree."  --SJM

From aahz at pythoncraft.com  Wed Feb 14 05:06:05 2007
From: aahz at pythoncraft.com (Aahz)
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2007 20:06:05 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] Output generation - (string operations/triple
	quote/template)
In-Reply-To: <78b3a9580702131550o1344a107sebaf312155a8b396@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1171081738.2A2879EE@gf28.dngr.org>
	<5.1.0.14.0.20070209204012.00be9ae8@localhost>
	<c41f67b90702131433r44e8521av49cc008fe877861@mail.gmail.com>
	<op.tnplynhaoiuain@smtp.mail.yahoo.com>
	<Pine.NEB.4.64.0702131524440.18614@S.culver.net>
	<78b3a9580702131550o1344a107sebaf312155a8b396@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20070214040605.GC1076@panix.com>

On Tue, Feb 13, 2007, wesley chun wrote:
>
> my process mgmt background is now a little rusty, so remind me: does
> the OS help "defrag" heap chunks at all during the lifetime of a
> process?  if so, how often?  is it time- or capacity-based?

No, but PyMalloc does.
-- 
Aahz (aahz at pythoncraft.com)           <*>         http://www.pythoncraft.com/

"I disrespectfully agree."  --SJM

From aahz at pythoncraft.com  Wed Feb 14 05:18:50 2007
From: aahz at pythoncraft.com (Aahz)
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2007 20:18:50 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] Discussion for newbies/beginner night talks
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20070209204012.00be9ae8@localhost>
References: <1171081738.2A2879EE@gf28.dngr.org>
	<5.1.0.14.0.20070209204012.00be9ae8@localhost>
Message-ID: <20070214041850.GD1076@panix.com>

[top-posting for once to preserve Dennis's code without require people
to read over it for my material]

There are several aspects to your code that I would object to if you
were submitting it to me for code review:

* Your internal indentation makes this difficult to maintain

* URL generation should be done with function calls, for example:

    def make_link(url, **kwargs):
        q = url_quote
        params = [ q(i[0])+'='+q(i[1]) for i in kwargs.items() ]
        params = '&'.join(params)
        return url + '?' + params

    make_link('edt_main.py', slct='edit', class='tree_open32',
        index=key, act=act)

* Using += makes for bad performance

* Hardcoding image size attributes is horrible

* For that matter, hardcoding URLs is a Bad Idea

* Interleaving program logic with HTML makes it difficult to follow both

Triple-quoting doesn't solve any of these problems directly, but it
would allow you to take more of a templating approach, particularly if
you used dict interpolation instead of tuple interpolation.


On Fri, Feb 09, 2007, Dennis Reinhardt wrote:
>
> Here is a code fragment from my talk last night (foil 15, I believe).  How 
> would you re-write this to utilize triple quoting?  The task here is to 
> build a two level visual tree structure:
> 
> # build entire initial tree structure
> def init_tree(ht_obj):
>      html = "<table border=0>"
>      index = 0
>      last_exe = ""
>      for xml_entry in util_actwin.display_list("enm", "+"):
>          exe_name = str_extract(xml_entry, ["enm"])
>          keye   = safe_int(str_extract(xml_entry, ["key"]))
>          act = str_extract(xml_entry, ["act"])
>          #logger("init_tree %s %s" % (keye, exe_name))
>          fname, exe = exe_name.split(".")
>          if fname != last_exe:
>              html += "<tr>"
>              if fname == expanded_node:
>                  html += "<td><img src=image/slct32.gif border=0></td>"
>              else:
>                  html += "\r\n<td><a 
> href=edt_main.py?slct=expand&fname=%s>" % fname
>                  html += "<%s></a></td>\r\n" % hovered_img(ht_obj, index)
>              html += "<td><img src=%s width=32 height=32></td>" % 
> get_program_image(fname)
>              html += "<td>%s</td>" % fname
>              html += "<td>&nbsp;</td>"
>              html += "</tr>"
>          if fname == expanded_node:
>              html += "<tr>"
>              html += "<td>&nbsp;</td>"
>              parm_index = safe_int_default(ht_obj.param("index"), -1)
>              if parm_index == keye:
>                  html += "<td><img src=image/slct32.gif border=0></td>"
>                  html += "<td><img src=%s " % get_action_image(xml_entry)
>                  html +=     "width=32 height=32 border=0></td>"
>              else:
>                  html += "<td><a href=edt_main.py?slct=edit"
>                  html +=     "&class=tree_open32"
>                  html +=     "&index=%s"       % keye
>                  html +=     "&act=%s"         % act
>                  html +=     "><%s></a></td>" % hovered_img(ht_obj, index)
>                  html += "<td><img src=%s " % get_action_image(xml_entry)
>                  html +=     "width=16 height=16 border=0></td>"
>              html += "<td>%s</td>" % get_caption(xml_entry)
>              html += "</tr>"
>          else:
>              pass
>          last_exe = fname
>          index += 1
>      html += "</table>"
>      return html

-- 
Aahz (aahz at pythoncraft.com)           <*>         http://www.pythoncraft.com/

"I disrespectfully agree."  --SJM

From grayarea at reddagger.org  Wed Feb 14 07:43:03 2007
From: grayarea at reddagger.org (jwithers)
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2007 22:43:03 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] Output generation - (string
	operations/triple	quote/template)
In-Reply-To: <op.tnplynhaoiuain@smtp.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <1171081738.2A2879EE@gf28.dngr.org>
	<5.1.0.14.0.20070209204012.00be9ae8@localhost>
	<c41f67b90702131433r44e8521av49cc008fe877861@mail.gmail.com>
	<op.tnplynhaoiuain@smtp.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <1171435383.9349.13.camel@localhost>


> I agree with JJ that template language is another good alternative,  
> especially for more complex generation. While this is subjective and  
> everyone have different criteria, I consider the approach of interleaving  
> Python code with the target output hard to maintain. It goes back to the  
> Java Servlet approach and the many addon projects later to provide better  
> alternatives.

> Wai Yip
> 

I have found TAL to be good for taking care of that. Templates, but you
are close to forced to move your code outside the templates. Most people
don't seem to like it much, but it makes me happy.  Most of Zope gets on
my nerves in one way or another, but TAL makes for better separation
than the majority of templating systems, and avoids the ugly of building
your html inside your code.

jpw

-- 
jwithers <grayarea at reddagger.org>


From bob at redivi.com  Wed Feb 14 07:40:05 2007
From: bob at redivi.com (Bob Ippolito)
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2007 22:40:05 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] Output generation - (string operations/triple
	quote/template)
In-Reply-To: <1171435383.9349.13.camel@localhost>
References: <1171081738.2A2879EE@gf28.dngr.org>
	<5.1.0.14.0.20070209204012.00be9ae8@localhost>
	<c41f67b90702131433r44e8521av49cc008fe877861@mail.gmail.com>
	<op.tnplynhaoiuain@smtp.mail.yahoo.com>
	<1171435383.9349.13.camel@localhost>
Message-ID: <6a36e7290702132240o5965dda5x9d0c6eb135b1185f@mail.gmail.com>

On 2/13/07, jwithers <grayarea at reddagger.org> wrote:
>
> > I agree with JJ that template language is another good alternative,
> > especially for more complex generation. While this is subjective and
> > everyone have different criteria, I consider the approach of interleaving
> > Python code with the target output hard to maintain. It goes back to the
> > Java Servlet approach and the many addon projects later to provide better
> > alternatives.
>
> > Wai Yip
> >
>
> I have found TAL to be good for taking care of that. Templates, but you
> are close to forced to move your code outside the templates. Most people
> don't seem to like it much, but it makes me happy.  Most of Zope gets on
> my nerves in one way or another, but TAL makes for better separation
> than the majority of templating systems, and avoids the ugly of building
> your html inside your code.

Genshi offers the same paradigm as TAL but uses Python syntax and is a
bit friendlier to those who want to put code in templates. It's a
pretty good middle ground in my experience.

-bob

From drewp at bigasterisk.com  Wed Feb 14 08:03:49 2007
From: drewp at bigasterisk.com (Drew Perttula)
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2007 23:03:49 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] Discussion for newbies/beginner night talks - stan
In-Reply-To: <c41f67b90702131433r44e8521av49cc008fe877861@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1171081738.2A2879EE@gf28.dngr.org>	<5.1.0.14.0.20070209204012.00be9ae8@localhost>
	<c41f67b90702131433r44e8521av49cc008fe877861@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <45D2B455.7030100@bigasterisk.com>

This example is getting some good discussion. I would use the "stan" 
templating system inside nevow, myself. My version is below:

> On 2/9/07, Dennis Reinhardt <DennisR at dair.com> wrote:
>> # build entire initial tree structure
>> def init_tree(ht_obj):
>>      html = "<table border=0>"
>>      index = 0
>>      last_exe = ""
>>      for xml_entry in util_actwin.display_list("enm", "+"):
>>          exe_name = str_extract(xml_entry, ["enm"])
>>          keye   = safe_int(str_extract(xml_entry, ["key"]))
>>          act = str_extract(xml_entry, ["act"])
>>          #logger("init_tree %s %s" % (keye, exe_name))
>>          fname, exe = exe_name.split(".")
>>          if fname != last_exe:
>>              html += "<tr>"
>>              if fname == expanded_node:
>>                  html += "<td><img src=image/slct32.gif border=0></td>"
>>              else:
>>                  html += "\r\n<td><a
>> href=edt_main.py?slct=expand&fname=%s>" % fname
>>                  html += "<%s></a></td>\r\n" % hovered_img(ht_obj, index)
>>              html += "<td><img src=%s width=32 height=32></td>" %
>> get_program_image(fname)
>>              html += "<td>%s</td>" % fname
>>              html += "<td>&nbsp;</td>"
>>              html += "</tr>"
>>          if fname == expanded_node:
>>              html += "<tr>"
>>              html += "<td>&nbsp;</td>"
>>              parm_index = safe_int_default(ht_obj.param("index"), -1)
>>              if parm_index == keye:
>>                  html += "<td><img src=image/slct32.gif border=0></td>"
>>                  html += "<td><img src=%s " % get_action_image(xml_entry)
>>                  html +=     "width=32 height=32 border=0></td>"
>>              else:
>>                  html += "<td><a href=edt_main.py?slct=edit"
>>                  html +=     "&class=tree_open32"
>>                  html +=     "&index=%s"       % keye
>>                  html +=     "&act=%s"         % act
>>                  html +=     "><%s></a></td>" % hovered_img(ht_obj, index)
>>                  html += "<td><img src=%s " % get_action_image(xml_entry)
>>                  html +=     "width=16 height=16 border=0></td>"
>>              html += "<td>%s</td>" % get_caption(xml_entry)
>>              html += "</tr>"
>>          else:
>>              pass
>>          last_exe = fname
>>          index += 1
>>      html += "</table>"
>>      return html

#
# nevow/stan version, completely untested
#

from nevow import flat, tags as T, entities

# build entire initial tree structure
def init_tree(ht_obj):
      index = 0
      last_exe = ""
      for xml_entry in util_actwin.display_list("enm", "+"):
          exe_name = str_extract(xml_entry, ["enm"])
          keye   = safe_int(str_extract(xml_entry, ["key"]))
          act = str_extract(xml_entry, ["act"])
          #logger("init_tree %s %s" % (keye, exe_name))
          fname, exe = exe_name.split(".")
          if fname != last_exe:
              cols = []

              if fname == expanded_node:
                  cols.append(T.td[T.img(src="image/slct32.gif",
                                         border=0)])
              else:
                  cols.append(T.td[
                      T.a(href="edt_main.py?slct=expand&fname=%s" %
                               fname)[
                         hovered_img(ht_obj, index)]
                      ])
              cols.extend([
                  T.td[T.img(src=get_program_image(fname),
                             width=32, height=32)],
                  T.td[fname],
                  T.td[entities.nbsp],
                       ])

              rows.append(T.tr[cols])

          if fname == expanded_node:
              parm_index = safe_int_default(ht_obj.param("index"), -1)
              if parm_index == keye:
                  cols = [T.td[T.img(src="image/slct32.gif", border=0)],
                          T.td[T.img(src=get_action_image(xml_entry),
                                     width=32, height=32, border=0)]]
              else:
                  cols = [T.td[T.a(href=("edt_main.py?slct=edit"
                                         "&class=tree_open32"
                                         "&index=", keye,
                                         "&act=", act)
                                   )[hovered_img(ht_obj, index)]],
                          T.td[T.img(src=get_action_image(xml_entry),
                                     width=16, height=16, border=0)]]

              rows.extend([T.tr[T.td[entities.nbsp],
                                cols,
                                T.td[get_caption(xml_entry)]]])

          else:
              pass
          last_exe = fname
          index += 1

      table = T.table(border=0)[rows]
      return flat.flatten(table)


Some notes:

The python lists and tuples in the xml-creating code will simply 
disappear in the output. T.p["foo", "bar"] renders to "<p>foobar</p>".

Nevow gets quoting right, so probably some of the other code could be 
simplified. hovered_img() should return a stan structure instead of the 
insides of an img tag, too.

The output of mine will be proper xml, which has some advantages. It 
won't be pretty-indented, but there's absolutely nothing interesting to 
see in the xml output. It'll be correct. What you might want to see is 
the DOM structure that you made, and firebug's DOM viewer is The Way to 
view that structure. It won't hide any information from you, and you can 
highlight back and forth between your DOM and the rendered page. So awesome.

My version of the code has 2/3 as many "words" as the original, as 
counted by wc. Does that make it easier to maintain? I'm not sure, but I 
do know that making maintenance edits on stan code is a breeze. You 
_can't make_ invalid xml, which takes care of the first hurdle with 
free-form text templating. The code can also be indented according to 
normal python rules, which means your python editor is working _with_ 
you on this.

Don't like (or can't use) the nevow project? This same XML shorthand was 
rewritten in a standalone project 
http://cheeseshop.python.org/pypi/Breve/1.0.35
I don't have any experience with breve. If it's really the stan part of 
nevow, then I say it's great.

Here's an article on stan which goes beyond the xml output system and 
into the dynamic templating part (i.e. putting in fields that are filled 
with dynamic values at render time):
http://www.kieranholland.com/code/documentation/nevow-stan/


From larryt at winfirst.com  Wed Feb 14 00:27:08 2007
From: larryt at winfirst.com (larryt at winfirst.com)
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2007 23:27:08 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [Baypiggies] pyjamas
Message-ID: <20070213232708.EE5B7AC25C@mail.sacsys.com>


Does anybody know the nature of formal, informal or planned future
Google support for pyjamas?  Some of our GIS programmers recently
tested it and found it to be much less mature than GWT.

thanks,
larry

From aahz at pythoncraft.com  Wed Feb 14 15:08:19 2007
From: aahz at pythoncraft.com (Aahz)
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2007 06:08:19 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] Output generation - (string operations/triple
	quote/template)
In-Reply-To: <6a36e7290702132240o5965dda5x9d0c6eb135b1185f@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1171081738.2A2879EE@gf28.dngr.org>
	<5.1.0.14.0.20070209204012.00be9ae8@localhost>
	<c41f67b90702131433r44e8521av49cc008fe877861@mail.gmail.com>
	<op.tnplynhaoiuain@smtp.mail.yahoo.com>
	<1171435383.9349.13.camel@localhost>
	<6a36e7290702132240o5965dda5x9d0c6eb135b1185f@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20070214140819.GA5088@panix.com>

On Tue, Feb 13, 2007, Bob Ippolito wrote:
> On 2/13/07, jwithers <grayarea at reddagger.org> wrote:
>>
>> I have found TAL to be good for taking care of that. Templates, but you
>> are close to forced to move your code outside the templates. Most people
>> don't seem to like it much, but it makes me happy.  Most of Zope gets on
>> my nerves in one way or another, but TAL makes for better separation
>> than the majority of templating systems, and avoids the ugly of building
>> your html inside your code.
> 
> Genshi offers the same paradigm as TAL but uses Python syntax and is a
> bit friendlier to those who want to put code in templates. It's a
> pretty good middle ground in my experience.

Haven't used either, but I've used Quixote a bit, and that's extremely
nice for templates that focus mostly on programming.
-- 
Aahz (aahz at pythoncraft.com)           <*>         http://www.pythoncraft.com/

"I disrespectfully agree."  --SJM

From larryt at winfirst.com  Wed Feb 14 08:31:17 2007
From: larryt at winfirst.com (larryt at winfirst.com)
Date: 14 Feb 2007 07:31:17 +0000
Subject: [Baypiggies] Output generation - (string operations/triple
	quote/template)
Message-ID: <x7r6stdwl6.fsf@winfirst.com>

Aahz <aahz at pythoncraft.com> writes:

> [...] I've used Quixote a bit, and that's extremely
> nice for templates that focus mostly on programming.

I found it so as well.  A couple of unexpected quoting behaviors, but
a bit of trial and error gets through it, and I think there's been
some recent work to improve it in that area as well.  

-larry




From DennisR at dair.com  Wed Feb 14 17:22:15 2007
From: DennisR at dair.com (Dennis Reinhardt)
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2007 08:22:15 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] Discussion for newbies/beginner night talks - stan
In-Reply-To: <45D2B455.7030100@bigasterisk.com>
References: <c41f67b90702131433r44e8521av49cc008fe877861@mail.gmail.com>
	<1171081738.2A2879EE@gf28.dngr.org>
	<5.1.0.14.0.20070209204012.00be9ae8@localhost>
	<c41f67b90702131433r44e8521av49cc008fe877861@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20070214082207.00beb440@localhost>

At 11:03 PM 2/13/2007, Drew Perttula wrote:

 >Some notes:
 >The python lists and tuples in the xml-creating code will simply
 >disappear in the output. T.p["foo", "bar"] renders to "<p>foobar</p>".

Hmmm... I thought the x[y] syntax was doing an element access on dict or 
list x to find element y.  If x is an function, then I am guessing that 
x[y] is shorthand for

	z = [y]
	x(z)

or something like that.

A snippet from Dennis:
 >>                  html += "<td><a href=edt_main.py?slct=edit"
 >>                  html +=     "&class=tree_open32"
 >>                  html +=     "&index=%s"       % keye
 >>                  html +=     "&act=%s"         % act
 >>                  html +=     "><%s></a></td>" % hovered_img(ht_obj, index)

The equivalent snippet from Drew
 >                  cols = [T.td[T.a(href=("edt_main.py?slct=edit"
 >                                         "&class=tree_open32"
 >                                         "&index=", keye,
 >                                         "&act=", act)
 >                                   )[hovered_img(ht_obj, index)]],


I guess the nesting take some getting used to.  Stripping all the contained 
wording, Drew's version above becomes

	cols = [[(())[()]],

where the opening "[" is not balanced because it is closed later>  Compare 
the equivalent stripped version of Dennis's code

	html += "<td><a><%s></a></td>"

I think moving the nesting of html into Python "[...]" and "(...)" creates 
its own difficulties in reading and understanding.

 >Nevow gets quoting right, so probably some of the other code could be
 >simplified. hovered_img() should return a stan structure instead of the
 >insides of an img tag, too.

So some of the nesting in the stripped version above would simplify, 
right?  Maybe the stripped code becomes

	cols = [[(())],

???

 >My version of the code has 2/3 as many "words" as the original, as
 >counted by wc. Does that make it easier to maintain? I'm not sure,

Dennis's stripped version has 5 words while Drew's has 0.  Those extra 
words help to visually scan the html.  I think those extra words may be 
reducing cognitive load, allowing easier manual matchup of nesting.

Drew's version is moving some of the html nesting into Python.  I am not 
sure which version would be easier to maintain either.

 >http://cheeseshop.python.org/pypi/Breve/1.0.35
 >http://www.kieranholland.com/code/documentation/nevow-stan/

thanks for your version and the references.

regards, Dennis


  ---------------------------------
| Dennis    | DennisR at dair.com    |
| Reinhardt | http://www.dair.com |
  ---------------------------------


From glenn.gee at batnet.com  Wed Feb 14 18:20:25 2007
From: glenn.gee at batnet.com (Glenn R. Edwards)
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2007 09:20:25 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] Contract Python programming
Message-ID: <000401c7505c$6b0ce910$6501a8c0@gee02>

I have a modest Python programming task that I need to contract to a
local (Bay Area) individual.  The project will start immediately and I
am the main contact, engineering manager and payor.

 

In general, the program will play a supervisory role to a
machine-control application (EMC2: see linuxcnc.org) running on a
Linux:Ubuntu platform.  The supervisor will load EMC2 work files,
monitor all EMC2 processing and automatically retrieve/send files to a
local (LAN) Linux server.  More details available after initial contact.

 

The contract will likely be arranged as a fixed-price contract as I feel
the specification is sufficiently clear and complete to do so.

 

Interested parties should please contact me directly and only by email.
I will accept replies for the next two days.

 

I am a newbie and if I have broken any code-of-conduct for this group by
posting this job in this manner, I apologize.  Please inform me of the
proper way to do so.

 

Best regards,

-- --

Glenn 

glenn.gee at batnet.com 

 

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From chad.netzer at gmail.com  Wed Feb 14 20:39:36 2007
From: chad.netzer at gmail.com (Chad Netzer)
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2007 11:39:36 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] Discussion for newbies/beginner night talks - stan
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20070214082207.00beb440@localhost>
References: <1171081738.2A2879EE@gf28.dngr.org>
	<5.1.0.14.0.20070209204012.00be9ae8@localhost>
	<c41f67b90702131433r44e8521av49cc008fe877861@mail.gmail.com>
	<45D2B455.7030100@bigasterisk.com>
	<5.1.0.14.0.20070214082207.00beb440@localhost>
Message-ID: <a14a87410702141139k2043f9b7kf2d64ec7d4eafb50@mail.gmail.com>

On 2/14/07, Dennis Reinhardt <DennisR at dair.com> wrote:
> At 11:03 PM 2/13/2007, Drew Perttula wrote:
>
>  >Some notes:
>  >The python lists and tuples in the xml-creating code will simply
>  >disappear in the output. T.p["foo", "bar"] renders to "<p>foobar</p>".
>
> Hmmm... I thought the x[y] syntax was doing an element access on dict or
> list x to find element y.  If x is an function, then I am guessing that
> x[y] is shorthand for
>
>         z = [y]
>         x(z)
>
> or something like that.

Hmmm.  I'm not sure what you mean here.  If x is a function, then it
is not subscriptable.  I suppose it may be possible to fiddle with the
function object's __dict__ to try to make it subscriptable, but it
would be an unusual hack.

However, if x is an object from a user created class X, then x[y] is
syntactic sugar for:

X.__getitem__(x, key)

where key may be just about anything; a integer, a string, a list of
strings, etc.  Of course, your object should be prepared to handle the
key, which in Drew's T.p["foo", "bar"] example, seems to mean
consolidating a sequence.

http://docs.python.org/ref/sequence-types.html


> A snippet from Dennis:
>  >>                  html += "<td><a href=edt_main.py?slct=edit"
>  >>                  html +=     "&class=tree_open32"
>  >>                  html +=     "&index=%s"       % keye
>  >>                  html +=     "&act=%s"         % act
>  >>                  html +=     "><%s></a></td>" % hovered_img(ht_obj, index)
>
> The equivalent snippet from Drew
>  >                  cols = [T.td[T.a(href=("edt_main.py?slct=edit"
>  >                                         "&class=tree_open32"
>  >                                         "&index=", keye,
>  >                                         "&act=", act)
>  >                                   )[hovered_img(ht_obj, index)]],
>
>
> I guess the nesting take some getting used to.  Stripping all the contained
> wording, Drew's version above becomes
>
>         cols = [[(())[()]],
>
> where the opening "[" is not balanced because it is closed later>  Compare
> the equivalent stripped version of Dennis's code
>
>         html += "<td><a><%s></a></td>"

I think to be fair, I'd say Drew's stripped version is something like:

            cols = [T.td[T.a(href="")], blahblahblah]

ie. the html structure is more than the parens or square brackets.
And building the href in place
adds to the visual complexity in both examples.

It seems to me, just like when deciding whether to use an Expat or DOM
parser, I'd choose a method based on how I want to manipulate the
structure of the document before finally generating it.

Chad

From jjinux at gmail.com  Wed Feb 14 22:06:26 2007
From: jjinux at gmail.com (Shannon -jj Behrens)
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2007 13:06:26 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] Contract Python programming
In-Reply-To: <000401c7505c$6b0ce910$6501a8c0@gee02>
References: <000401c7505c$6b0ce910$6501a8c0@gee02>
Message-ID: <c41f67b90702141306t472e3631g146c3ce0f48fd61a@mail.gmail.com>

On 2/14/07, Glenn R. Edwards <glenn.gee at batnet.com> wrote:
> I have a modest Python programming task that I need to contract to a local
> (Bay Area) individual.  The project will start immediately and I am the main
> contact, engineering manager and payor.
>
> In general, the program will play a supervisory role to a machine-control
> application (EMC2: see linuxcnc.org) running on a Linux:Ubuntu platform.
> The supervisor will load EMC2 work files, monitor all EMC2 processing and
> automatically retrieve/send files to a local (LAN) Linux server.  More
> details available after initial contact.
>
> The contract will likely be arranged as a fixed-price contract as I feel the
> specification is sufficiently clear and complete to do so.
>
> Interested parties should please contact me directly and only by email.  I
> will accept replies for the next two days.
>
> I am a newbie and if I have broken any code-of-conduct for this group by
> posting this job in this manner, I apologize.  Please inform me of the
> proper way to do so.

Thanks for your diligence.  I think you're fine.  If anyone feels that
a posting has broken the rules, please send email to me privately, and
I will handle it off list so that 400 other people don't have to spend
time on it.

Thanks!
-jj

-- 
http://jjinux.blogspot.com/

From jjinux at gmail.com  Wed Feb 14 22:19:36 2007
From: jjinux at gmail.com (Shannon -jj Behrens)
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2007 13:19:36 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] Discussion for newbies/beginner night talks
In-Reply-To: <20070214040013.GB1076@panix.com>
References: <a14a87410702091430v63871956sf1cc2f7ef55b18b9@mail.gmail.com>
	<8249c4ac0702091604o54e306cfu8f60dabe670f57aa@mail.gmail.com>
	<32ef362c7a25f2e88a66b9d27384ef2a@well.com>
	<200702111801.31819.ddf@lka.com>
	<c41f67b90702131502v6c6ff1fcif533a46a8c584ec9@mail.gmail.com>
	<c41f67b90702131515n46b69e4epe548be85eb4e2407@mail.gmail.com>
	<20070214040013.GB1076@panix.com>
Message-ID: <c41f67b90702141319p29bbff75i1a0a35021ffab561@mail.gmail.com>

On 2/13/07, Aahz <aahz at pythoncraft.com> wrote:
> On Tue, Feb 13, 2007, Shannon -jj Behrens wrote:
> >
> > #) Using try/except for flow control:
> >
> > """Try to actually log the user in.
> >
> > BASIC IDEA: A million things can go wrong, and there are several ways to
> > succeed.  You want to check for the ways that can succeed and continue on as
> > soon as one of them does.  You want the non-local flow of control that
> > exceptions provide, but you need it for both success *and* failure.
> >
> > """
> >
> > def doLoginAction(self):
> >     """Try to actually log the user in."""
> >     class PasswordAccepted(Exception): pass
> >     try:
> >         if check_password():        # This may raise KeyError.
> >             raise PasswordAccepted
> >         do_more_expensive_work()
> >         and_even_more_expensive_work()
> >         if check_other_password():  #  This may raise KeyError.
> >             raise PasswordAccepted
> >         raise KeyError
> >     except KeyError:
> >         self.setError("Invalid username or password.")
> >         return
> >     except PasswordAccepted:
> >         pass
> >     continue_successfully()
>
> This really should not call setError(), it should simply raise
> ValueError (ValueError is for invalid data).

Sorry for the confusion.  setError() is fictitious.  Presumably, you
would do something like create an error response for the user with the
given warning.  Perhaps setError could be replaced with code that
redirects the user to an error page.

-jj

-- 
http://jjinux.blogspot.com/

From whitaker at google.com  Thu Feb 15 03:28:15 2007
From: whitaker at google.com (Russell Whitaker)
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2007 18:28:15 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] Looking for a hotel room at PyCon 2007
Message-ID: <997a56990702141828t7e37366oe3aa79e4ddd5ed64@mail.gmail.com>

I waited too long to commit to attending next week's PyCon 2007 in
Dallas: I called the hotel and found out they're fully booked.

So, I'm looking for a room/suite share... anyone up for it?

Thanks,

-- 
Russell Whitaker
Sysops Tools Team Lead
Google Inc., Mt View, CA
"gets() remains as a monument to C's continuing support of buffer
overruns." - Bill Frantz

From webmaven at cox.net  Thu Feb 15 03:35:19 2007
From: webmaven at cox.net (Michael Bernstein)
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2007 18:35:19 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] Looking for a hotel room at PyCon 2007
In-Reply-To: <997a56990702141828t7e37366oe3aa79e4ddd5ed64@mail.gmail.com>
References: <997a56990702141828t7e37366oe3aa79e4ddd5ed64@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1171506919.5121.164.camel@workshop>

On Wed, 2007-02-14 at 18:28 -0800, Russell Whitaker wrote:
> I waited too long to commit to attending next week's PyCon 2007 in
> Dallas: I called the hotel and found out they're fully booked.
> 
> So, I'm looking for a room/suite share... anyone up for it?

Try posting here:
http://us.pycon.org/Addison/RoomSplitting

- Michael Bernstein

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From whitaker at google.com  Thu Feb 15 03:48:29 2007
From: whitaker at google.com (Russell Whitaker)
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2007 18:48:29 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] Looking for a hotel room at PyCon 2007
In-Reply-To: <1171506919.5121.164.camel@workshop>
References: <997a56990702141828t7e37366oe3aa79e4ddd5ed64@mail.gmail.com>
	<1171506919.5121.164.camel@workshop>
Message-ID: <997a56990702141848t4e0be0aai323c6fc202937ff5@mail.gmail.com>

On 2/14/07, Michael Bernstein <webmaven at cox.net> wrote:
> On Wed, 2007-02-14 at 18:28 -0800, Russell Whitaker wrote:
> > I waited too long to commit to attending next week's PyCon 2007 in
> > Dallas: I called the hotel and found out they're fully booked.
> >
> > So, I'm looking for a room/suite share... anyone up for it?
>
> Try posting here:
> http://us.pycon.org/Addison/RoomSplitting
>
> - Michael Bernstein
>

Excellent!  Thanks for the pointer!

-- 
Russell Whitaker
Sysops Tools Team Lead
Google Inc., Mt View, CA
"gets() remains as a monument to C's continuing support of buffer
overruns." - Bill Frantz

From drewp at bigasterisk.com  Thu Feb 15 08:21:49 2007
From: drewp at bigasterisk.com (Drew Perttula)
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2007 23:21:49 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] Discussion for newbies/beginner night talks - stan
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20070214082207.00beb440@localhost>
References: <c41f67b90702131433r44e8521av49cc008fe877861@mail.gmail.com>	<1171081738.2A2879EE@gf28.dngr.org>	<5.1.0.14.0.20070209204012.00be9ae8@localhost>	<c41f67b90702131433r44e8521av49cc008fe877861@mail.gmail.com>
	<5.1.0.14.0.20070214082207.00beb440@localhost>
Message-ID: <45D40A0D.8060005@bigasterisk.com>

Dennis Reinhardt wrote:
> At 11:03 PM 2/13/2007, Drew Perttula wrote:
> 
>  >Some notes:
>  >The python lists and tuples in the xml-creating code will simply
>  >disappear in the output. T.p["foo", "bar"] renders to "<p>foobar</p>".
> 
> Hmmm... I thought the x[y] syntax was doing an element access on dict or 
> list x to find element y.  If x is an function, then I am guessing that 

Nope, the square brackets are being used in a novel way that creates 
stan structures, which are later rendered as html. It's absolutely 
unguessable and essentially new syntax, except that it follows the 
python rules for subscripting (which do allow comma-separated objects).

Fortunately, the xml angle brackets are completely gone in stan, so a 
python programmer actually has less overall syntax rules to memorize. I 
also never think about xml quoting or unicode issues in my stan 
templates, which is really nice.

The implementation of that special stan syntax is surprisingly simple. 
You can check it out at 
http://divmod.org/trac/browser/trunk/Nevow/nevow/stan.py
Line 313 lets T.p(align="center") save an attribute on a p tag; lines 
336-338 remember the children in T.p[child1, child2, child3].

Other files of interest:

http://divmod.org/trac/browser/trunk/Nevow/nevow/flat/flatstan.py
   -> the rendering of stan into xml (with all the quoting).

http://divmod.org/trac/browser/trunk/Nevow/nevow/tags.py
   -> setup of the standard tags, such as T.p, T.h1, T.table




From DennisR at dair.com  Thu Feb 15 21:22:43 2007
From: DennisR at dair.com (Dennis Reinhardt)
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2007 12:22:43 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] Discussion for newbies/beginner night talks - test
 results
In-Reply-To: <45D40A0D.8060005@bigasterisk.com>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20070214082207.00beb440@localhost>
	<c41f67b90702131433r44e8521av49cc008fe877861@mail.gmail.com>
	<1171081738.2A2879EE@gf28.dngr.org>
	<5.1.0.14.0.20070209204012.00be9ae8@localhost>
	<c41f67b90702131433r44e8521av49cc008fe877861@mail.gmail.com>
	<5.1.0.14.0.20070214082207.00beb440@localhost>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20070215112850.00bee9a0@localhost>

At 11:21 PM 2/14/2007, Drew Perttula wrote:
>Nope, the square brackets are being used in a novel way that creates stan 
>structures,

Summary
-------
Appending many string fragments is done most efficiently using a dict in 
both time and memory under extreme conditions.  Text append gives better 
memory results than list append.  Under realistic conditions, there was 
little reason to choose text over list over dict.

Discussion
----------
This discussion and Stan got me thinking.  Today, I want to tackle code 
which generates a graphical directory display of icons.  It is possible for 
people to have directories of thousands (maybe even 10s of thousands) of 
icons.  Efficiency may matter.

The convention wisdom, IIRC, is to do list appends rather than string 
appends.  I wrote a program to test this, measuring execution time and 
final memory footprint under windows.  Here is the code:

import time

def holding():
     #l = ""
     #l = [""]
     l = {}
     for x in range(0,100000):
         #l += "abcdef"
         #l += ["abcdef"]
         #l.append("abcdef")
         l[x] = "abcdef"

time.sleep(1)
print "enter holding"
for a in range(0,10):
     start = time.time()
     for b in range(0,10):
         holding()
     print "%3.5f" % (time.time()-start)
     time.sleep(1)
print "exit holding"
time.sleep(2000)

The code uses "range" because I want to run it under 2.3, although all the 
results reported here are for 2.5.  Here are the results:

TIME (10 calls ea)   100K_iter_1_str 500K_iter_1_str 100K_iter_5_str 
1K_iter_5_str
text                 0.422           15.656          14.937          0.016
list+=               0.438           2.2             0.421           0.016
list_append          0.219           1.188           0.219           0.016
dict                 0.203           1.031           0.204           0

MEM                 100K_iter_1_str  500K_iter_1_str 100K_iter_5_str 
1K_iter_5_str
text                6.196            10.356          5.44            3.548
list+=              7.196            11.92           7.192           3.56
list_append         7.192            11.92           7.196           3.56
dict                5.66             9.548           5.656           3.588

The TIME results are in seconds for 10 calls to holding(), as should be 
clear from the code.  The best and worst case timings among the 10 runs did 
not vary much (usually second decimal) and so for simplicity I simply 
reported worst case timing.

The MEM results are in megabytes of memory at the end of run (at "exit 
holding").  At start of run before entering holding(), memory used was 3.5 
MB.  Clearly, there is a systematic growth in memory.  The final 
time.sleep(2000) is to allow time for garbage collection to reduce memory 
usage.  In one run, I waited 10 minutes and saw no change in memory 
used.  The memory used fluctuated far more than time.

My expectation for the memory results is that all memory internal to 
holding() would be released because all variables were local.  This 
expectation does not appear to be met.

Across the columns, "100K_iter" means the

             for x in range(0,100000):

statement had an upper limit of 100000 (as shown) while 500K_iter says the 
upper limit is 5 times greater and so on.  "1_str" means the string used is 
"abcdef" (as shown) while 5_str means "abcdefabcdefabcdefabcdefabcdef" was 
used instead.

For the rows, text means that the

         #l = ""
        #l += "abcdef"

statements were uncommented while dict is uncommented in the code show.

Evaluation
------------
I am looking at HTML generation.  A 100K HTML file is *huge*.  Doing 100K 
or 500K appends of a 6 or 30 character string are "stress tests" which I 
simply do not expect to reach.  I would like to know what the behavior is 
but these levels are not the design point.  The final column showing 1000 
appends of a 30 character string represent a typical design point.

At 1K iterations, the time differences do not matter.  I am using a Dual 
core 2 GHz machine for timing.  Even a machine 20X slower is still 
acceptable for generating a local html page. If I were writing a multiuser 
server, the timing would matter.  In my app, it simply does not matter at 
my design point.

What matters more to me is memory footprint.  The list append tests show 
larger memory footprint under all conditions tested.  Under realistic test 
conditions, there is little difference in memory footprint and I would 
expect that running more iterations or changing the test conditions could 
affect the rankings.

Under realistic conditions, there is not much difference in either time or 
memory footprint.



  ---------------------------------
| Dennis    | DennisR at dair.com    |
| Reinhardt | http://www.dair.com |
  ---------------------------------


From cvanarsdall at mvista.com  Thu Feb 15 22:00:57 2007
From: cvanarsdall at mvista.com (Carl J. Van Arsdall)
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2007 13:00:57 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] PyCon meetup anyone?
Message-ID: <45D4CA09.8010103@mvista.com>

Hey guys,

I'll be at PyCon and I can't wait.  I was thinking it might be cool to 
get together for dinner/drinks with a few bay area ex patriots while 
we're in texas.  Would anyone be interested in this type of thing?  Hey, 
let me know on my private email, we don't need to include the whole 
list.  I'll build up a list of people who are interested and try to 
coordinate as best I can.  We can nerd out in a foreign country - yes, 
california is that special to me ;) - so let me know!

Hope to see some of you next week!

-carl

-- 

Carl J. Van Arsdall
cvanarsdall at mvista.com
Build and Release
MontaVista Software


From dyoo at cs.wpi.edu  Thu Feb 15 22:44:18 2007
From: dyoo at cs.wpi.edu (Daniel Yoo)
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2007 16:44:18 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [Baypiggies] Discussion for newbies/beginner night talks - test
 results
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20070215112850.00bee9a0@localhost>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20070214082207.00beb440@localhost>
	<c41f67b90702131433r44e8521av49cc008fe877861@mail.gmail.com>
	<1171081738.2A2879EE@gf28.dngr.org>
	<5.1.0.14.0.20070209204012.00be9ae8@localhost>
	<c41f67b90702131433r44e8521av49cc008fe877861@mail.gmail.com>
	<5.1.0.14.0.20070214082207.00beb440@localhost>
	<5.1.0.14.0.20070215112850.00bee9a0@localhost>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.63.0702151607110.26266@cs.wpi.edu>

> Appending many string fragments is done most efficiently using a dict in 
> both time and memory under extreme conditions.

Hi Dennis,

I am not sure what you mean by this.


Let's make it clear: we have some concept of a template that whose "holes" 
need to be filled in.  There are a few ways to implement the concept of a 
templated string:


* By appending string fragments together.

     def mad_libs(noun, verb):
         return noun + " was " + verb + "ing along when ..."

   Alternatively,

     def mad_libs(noun, verb):
         buffer = []
         buffer.append(noun)
         buffer.append(" was ")
         ... ## you get the idea
         return ''.join(buffer)


* By using string formatting to interpolate a value.  In this case, we
   have two options to the string formatter, to pass along the values
   through a list, or through a dictionary:

     def mad_lib(noun, verb):
         return '%s was %sing along when' % (noun, verb)



I know what you meant to say earlier with,

> Appending many string fragments is done most efficiently using a dict in 
> both time and memory under extreme conditions.

but we have to be careful here: you don't want to compare the act of doing 
string interpolation to do string concatenation.  Rather, you mean to say 
"Filling in a template is done most efficiently using string formatting 
with a dictionary..."

If you like, think of it in terms of conceptual "types": the left hand 
side has to be an intention, a concept, and the right hand side is the 
implementation to make that intention work.



> This discussion and Stan got me thinking.  Today, I want to tackle code 
> which generates a graphical directory display of icons.  It is possible 
> for people to have directories of thousands (maybe even 10s of 
> thousands) of icons.  Efficiency may matter.
>
> The convention wisdom, IIRC, is to do list appends rather than string 
> appends.

In some cases, we do not necessarily need to do any appends at all, list 
or string.  We can generate the output on-the-fly, writing our output to a 
file-like object.

This part has been a bit ignored in the discussion.  Concretely:

###################################
def mad_libs(name, verb, out_file):
     out_file.write(noun)
     out_file.write(" was ")
     ... ## you get the idea
###################################

We do not have to always work with constructing strings.  In fact, in a 
lot of applications, we must not, or else we'll run out of memory.



> I wrote a program to test this, measuring execution time and final 
> memory footprint under windows.  Here is the code:

I'm cutting out the commented lines.

#############################
def holding():
     l = {}
     for x in range(0,100000):
         l[x] = "abcdef"
#############################

Can you explain what this is trying to test?  As far as I can tell, this 
is testing how fast we can build dictionaries, but there's only one string 
literal value involved here.

The problem is this: there's no string concatenation or string building 
going on here at all, so I'm not sure how this relates to previous 
discussion.


I think this might be related to the confusion earlier that dictionaries 
could be directly used to concatenate strings together.  That's not true: 
you need to go through a string-formatting operation too.


I assume that you had several edited versions of "holding", each 
corresponding to a commented line.  You have to compare apples to apples. 
The version working with dictionaries (as well as the one working with 
lists) must make the same end result, the same content as the version that 
I assume looks like:

############################
def holding():
     l = ""
     for x in range(0,100000):
         l += "abcdef"
#############################



To make this easier, we should change the defintions so that these are 
actual functions that can be compared functionally.  For example:

##############################################
def holding_with_lists():
     l = []
     for x in range(0,100000):
         l.append("abcdef")
     return ''.join(l)

def holding_naive():
     l = ""
     for x in range(0,100000):
         l += "abcdef"
     return l

assert holding_with_lists() == holding_naive()
##############################################

Otherwise, without making sure these different implemenations return the 
same result, we risk comparing apples to oranges.  I suspect that's what's 
happened here.


By the way, if we're going to publish benchmarks, we should make it easy 
to replicate those benchmarks.  The things we're comparing should be 
independent functions that can be tested.  Asking people to comment or 
uncomment lines of code to do the measurements is error prone.


Good luck to you.

From chad.netzer at gmail.com  Thu Feb 15 23:21:39 2007
From: chad.netzer at gmail.com (Chad Netzer)
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2007 14:21:39 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] Discussion for newbies/beginner night talks - test
	results
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.63.0702151607110.26266@cs.wpi.edu>
References: <1171081738.2A2879EE@gf28.dngr.org>
	<5.1.0.14.0.20070209204012.00be9ae8@localhost>
	<c41f67b90702131433r44e8521av49cc008fe877861@mail.gmail.com>
	<5.1.0.14.0.20070214082207.00beb440@localhost>
	<5.1.0.14.0.20070215112850.00bee9a0@localhost>
	<Pine.LNX.4.63.0702151607110.26266@cs.wpi.edu>
Message-ID: <a14a87410702151421t3b6fd654kdc109572d6497e67@mail.gmail.com>

On 2/15/07, Daniel Yoo <dyoo at cs.wpi.edu> wrote:

> To make this easier, we should change the defintions so that these are
> actual functions that can be compared functionally.  For example:
>
> ##############################################
> def holding_with_lists():
>      l = []
>      for x in range(0,100000):
>          l.append("abcdef")
>      return ''.join(l)
>
> def holding_naive():
>      l = ""
>      for x in range(0,100000):
>          l += "abcdef"
>      return l
>
> assert holding_with_lists() == holding_naive()
> ##############################################
>
> Otherwise, without making sure these different implemenations return the
> same result, we risk comparing apples to oranges.  I suspect that's what's
> happened here.


Danny, in addition to your good advice, I'd also suggest not using
range() in the loop, since Dennis was also intending to look at memory
footprint.  Use xrange(), or make a simple iterator instead.

Dennis, you said in your example, "The final time.sleep(2000) is to
allow time for garbage collection to reduce memory usage."  However,
that certainly will have no effect with CPython, nor do operating
system memory allocators work that way.  If I'm wrong about this,
someone please enlighten me.  You could try:

gc.collect()

but these simple examples probably don't have any unreachable memory
cycles.  In general, memory usage benchmarking can be a tricky
undertaking, sometimes even for 'simple' examples.

Chad

From jjinux at gmail.com  Fri Feb 16 00:09:11 2007
From: jjinux at gmail.com (Shannon -jj Behrens)
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2007 15:09:11 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] Discussion for newbies/beginner night talks - test
	results
In-Reply-To: <a14a87410702151421t3b6fd654kdc109572d6497e67@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1171081738.2A2879EE@gf28.dngr.org>
	<5.1.0.14.0.20070209204012.00be9ae8@localhost>
	<c41f67b90702131433r44e8521av49cc008fe877861@mail.gmail.com>
	<5.1.0.14.0.20070214082207.00beb440@localhost>
	<5.1.0.14.0.20070215112850.00bee9a0@localhost>
	<Pine.LNX.4.63.0702151607110.26266@cs.wpi.edu>
	<a14a87410702151421t3b6fd654kdc109572d6497e67@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <c41f67b90702151509l47119fddr3d1aafb79236a521@mail.gmail.com>

On 2/15/07, Chad Netzer <chad.netzer at gmail.com> wrote:
> On 2/15/07, Daniel Yoo <dyoo at cs.wpi.edu> wrote:
>
> > To make this easier, we should change the defintions so that these are
> > actual functions that can be compared functionally.  For example:
> >
> > ##############################################
> > def holding_with_lists():
> >      l = []
> >      for x in range(0,100000):
> >          l.append("abcdef")
> >      return ''.join(l)
> >
> > def holding_naive():
> >      l = ""
> >      for x in range(0,100000):
> >          l += "abcdef"
> >      return l
> >
> > assert holding_with_lists() == holding_naive()
> > ##############################################
> >
> > Otherwise, without making sure these different implemenations return the
> > same result, we risk comparing apples to oranges.  I suspect that's what's
> > happened here.
>
>
> Danny, in addition to your good advice, I'd also suggest not using
> range() in the loop, since Dennis was also intending to look at memory
> footprint.  Use xrange(), or make a simple iterator instead.
>
> Dennis, you said in your example, "The final time.sleep(2000) is to
> allow time for garbage collection to reduce memory usage."  However,
> that certainly will have no effect with CPython, nor do operating
> system memory allocators work that way.  If I'm wrong about this,
> someone please enlighten me.  You could try:
>
> gc.collect()
>
> but these simple examples probably don't have any unreachable memory
> cycles.  In general, memory usage benchmarking can be a tricky
> undertaking, sometimes even for 'simple' examples.

I saw a talk at PyCon two years ago that said that Python would never
give memory back to the OS.  That's probably changed, but I'd check
first.

I think this discussion is a bit of a red herring.  I still think we
should focus on readability.  If Dennis insists on using += instead of
a nice templating engine like Cheetah, and it turns out that
list.append uses less memory than +=, then let's remember that that
StringIO takes care of using a list internally.  I suggest he do the
following since he seems to dislike triple quoted strings (which I
don't agree with):

from cStringIO import StringIO
buf = StringIO()
w = buf.write

w("String")
w("String %s bar." % name)
...

return w.getvalue()

Better yet, wrap that boilerplate in a function and use a "with"
statement to do it automatically ;)

As another contribution to perhaps make him happier, I submit this,
which I use to use before I switched to Cheetah:

===============================================
def evalstr(s, dollar="$"):

    """Evaluate a string with embedded python expressions.

    This is a Python version of the function evalstr, which is used for
    variable interpolation.

    For instance,

        a = 5
        evalStr("I have $a$ dogs.")

    will return

        "I have 5 dogs."

    The code between the $'s can be any valid Python expression.  I'll just
    basically do

        str(eval(expression), yourGlobals, yourLocals)

    Since eval is being used, the expression must return some value.  To escape
    $'s in s, just use $$ (even within expressions).  To use a different
    character than $, pass the desired character in the second (optional)
    argument.  If there are an odd number of $ symbols, a ValueError exception
    will be raised.  Here are some additional examples (assuming a = 5):

    "My dog is $a$ years old." -> "My dog is 5 years old.",
    "I have $$5.00" -> "I have $5.00",
    "My $a$ year old dog has $$5.00" -> "My 5 year old dog has $5.00",
    "My dog has $'$$%s.' % a$" -> "My dog has $5.",
    "My dog has $'$$' + str(a) + '.'" -> ValueError exception,
    "My dog is $a$.$" -> ValueError exception,
    "$$ is a char." -> "$ is a char.",
    "$a$ is a number." -> "5 is a number.",
    "$a$" -> "5",
    "$a" -> ValueError exception,
    "I have a $$" -> "I have a $",
    "" -> "",
    "Spam" -> "Spam",
    "$" -> ValueError exception,
    "$ evalstr('I am #a#.', '#') $" -> "I am 5."

    """

    # By the way, I'm sorry if this stuff is hard to read.  If you
    # can come up with something more elegant, I'd love to see it,
    # but this is the best that I could come up with.

    import string
    import sys
    inEv = 0     # Are we in eval mode (i.e. inside a single $)?
    inDollar = 0 # We just got a dollar.  We might be in an escape sequence.
    ret = ""     # This is the string we're returning.
    tok = ""     # The token we're currently working with.
    stack = []   # All good languages are stack based ;)
    i=j=0        # These are indexes into s.

    # Grab the calling function's namespace.  I can't find a nice
    # way to do this other than manually generating an exception
    # and surfing the traceback.  As for performance, you can do
    # this about 10000 times in a bit less than a second on my
    # PIII 600 mhz system.

    try:
        1/0
    except:
        traceback = sys.exc_info()[2]
        currFrame = traceback.tb_frame
        prevFrame = currFrame.f_back
        prevGlobals = prevFrame.f_globals
        prevLocals = prevFrame.f_locals

    # If they forget to close the $, raise a ValueError exception.

    if string.count(s, dollar) % 2:
        raise ValueError, "unmatched dollar symbol"

    sLen = len(s)
    while 1:

        # Get next token.

        j = i
        if j==sLen:
            tok = ""
        elif s[j] == dollar:
            tok = dollar
            i = j+1
        else:
            while j<sLen and s[j]!=dollar: j=j+1
            if j==sLen:
                tok = s[i:]
                i = sLen
            else:
                tok = s[i:j]
                i = j

        # Deal with receiving $'s (may call continue).

        if tok == dollar:
            if inDollar: inDollar = 0
            else:
                inDollar = 1
                continue

        # Deal with appending stuff to the stack or to ret.

        if inDollar:
            inEv = not inEv
            inDollar = 0
        if inEv: stack = stack + [tok]
        else:
            if len(stack) > 0:
                ret = ret + \
                    str(eval(string.join(stack, ""),
                         prevGlobals,
                         prevLocals))
            ret = ret + tok
            stack = []

        # Deal with end of string.

        if tok == "": break
    return ret

# I also have a C version of this if you want it.
===============================================

Happy Hacking!
-jj

-- 
http://jjinux.blogspot.com/

From DennisR at dair.com  Fri Feb 16 00:08:06 2007
From: DennisR at dair.com (Dennis Reinhardt)
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2007 15:08:06 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] Discussion for newbies/beginner night talks - test
 results
In-Reply-To: <a14a87410702151421t3b6fd654kdc109572d6497e67@mail.gmail.co
 m>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.63.0702151607110.26266@cs.wpi.edu>
	<1171081738.2A2879EE@gf28.dngr.org>
	<5.1.0.14.0.20070209204012.00be9ae8@localhost>
	<c41f67b90702131433r44e8521av49cc008fe877861@mail.gmail.com>
	<5.1.0.14.0.20070214082207.00beb440@localhost>
	<5.1.0.14.0.20070215112850.00bee9a0@localhost>
	<Pine.LNX.4.63.0702151607110.26266@cs.wpi.edu>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20070215145929.00bf3c20@localhost>

At 02:21 PM 2/15/2007, Chad Netzer wrote:

>Dennis, you said in your example, "The final time.sleep(2000) is to
>allow time for garbage collection to reduce memory usage."  However,
>that certainly will have no effect with CPython, nor do operating
>system memory allocators work that way.


I read at http://docs.python.org/lib/module-gc.html where it says

         "tune the collection frequency"

and other statements on this page to mean that the garbage collector makes 
periodic sweeps of object references.  I do not see what the timing is.  I 
did provide for a window in this code so that if such a sweep resulted in 
lowering memory requirements, I had provided for time to go by.

Informal testing on a large system (not this toy example) where I set the 
gc collection interval to every minute did not materially affect the 
results.  In this toy example, I had experimented with explicit del() calls 
and took them out of the code as they made no improvement.

Dennis


  ---------------------------------
| Dennis    | DennisR at dair.com    |
| Reinhardt | http://www.dair.com |
  ---------------------------------


From kelly at nttmcl.com  Fri Feb 16 00:15:50 2007
From: kelly at nttmcl.com (Kelly Yancey)
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2007 15:15:50 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] Discussion for newbies/beginner night talks - test
 results
In-Reply-To: <c41f67b90702151509l47119fddr3d1aafb79236a521@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1171081738.2A2879EE@gf28.dngr.org>	<5.1.0.14.0.20070209204012.00be9ae8@localhost>	<c41f67b90702131433r44e8521av49cc008fe877861@mail.gmail.com>	<5.1.0.14.0.20070214082207.00beb440@localhost>	<5.1.0.14.0.20070215112850.00bee9a0@localhost>	<Pine.LNX.4.63.0702151607110.26266@cs.wpi.edu>	<a14a87410702151421t3b6fd654kdc109572d6497e67@mail.gmail.com>
	<c41f67b90702151509l47119fddr3d1aafb79236a521@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <45D4E9A6.5090201@nttmcl.com>

Shannon -jj Behrens wrote:
> 
> I saw a talk at PyCon two years ago that said that Python would never
> give memory back to the OS.  That's probably changed, but I'd check
> first.
> 

   Only Python 2.5 currently frees memory back to the system.  From 
http://docs.python.org/whatsnew/ports.html:

	Evan Jones's patch to obmalloc, first described in a talk at
	PyCon DC 2005, was applied. Python 2.4 allocated small objects
	in 256K-sized arenas, but never freed arenas. With this patch,
	Python will free arenas when they're empty. The net effect is
	that on some platforms, when you allocate many objects, Python's
	memory usage may actually drop when you delete them and the
	memory may be returned to the operating system. (Implemented by
	Evan Jones, and reworked by Tim Peters.)

   Kelly

From annaraven at gmail.com  Fri Feb 16 00:30:59 2007
From: annaraven at gmail.com (Anna Ravenscroft)
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2007 15:30:59 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] Discussion for newbies/beginner night talks - test
	results
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20070215145929.00bf3c20@localhost>
References: <1171081738.2A2879EE@gf28.dngr.org>
	<5.1.0.14.0.20070209204012.00be9ae8@localhost>
	<c41f67b90702131433r44e8521av49cc008fe877861@mail.gmail.com>
	<5.1.0.14.0.20070214082207.00beb440@localhost>
	<5.1.0.14.0.20070215112850.00bee9a0@localhost>
	<Pine.LNX.4.63.0702151607110.26266@cs.wpi.edu>
	<5.1.0.14.0.20070215145929.00bf3c20@localhost>
Message-ID: <cb361a610702151530v6ddb0460xf501c9c44f43efa6@mail.gmail.com>

On 2/15/07, Dennis Reinhardt <DennisR at dair.com> wrote:
>
> At 02:21 PM 2/15/2007, Chad Netzer wrote:
>
> >Dennis, you said in your example, "The final time.sleep(2000) is to
> >allow time for garbage collection to reduce memory usage."  However,
> >that certainly will have no effect with CPython, nor do operating
> >system memory allocators work that way.
>
>
> I read at http://docs.python.org/lib/module-gc.html where it says
>
>          "tune the collection frequency"
>
> and other statements on this page to mean that the garbage collector makes
> periodic sweeps of object references.  I do not see what the timing is.  I
> did provide for a window in this code so that if such a sweep resulted in
> lowering memory requirements, I had provided for time to go by.
>
> Informal testing on a large system (not this toy example) where I set the
> gc collection interval to every minute did not materially affect the
> results.  In this toy example, I had experimented with explicit del()
> calls
> and took them out of the code as they made no improvement.
>
> Dennis
>
>
>   ---------------------------------
> | Dennis    | DennisR at dair.com    |
> | Reinhardt | http://www.dair.com |
>   ---------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> Baypiggies mailing list
> Baypiggies at python.org
> To change your subscription options or unsubscribe:
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies
>


May I suggest that, given the variety of "expert" responses, this might not
be an appropriate topic for newbies/beginners night? It's a great topic for
discussion in general...

-- 
cordially,
Anna
--
It is fate, but call it Italy if it pleases you, Vicar!
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From chad.netzer at gmail.com  Fri Feb 16 01:29:45 2007
From: chad.netzer at gmail.com (Chad Netzer)
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2007 16:29:45 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] Discussion for newbies/beginner night talks - test
	results
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20070215145929.00bf3c20@localhost>
References: <1171081738.2A2879EE@gf28.dngr.org>
	<5.1.0.14.0.20070209204012.00be9ae8@localhost>
	<c41f67b90702131433r44e8521av49cc008fe877861@mail.gmail.com>
	<5.1.0.14.0.20070214082207.00beb440@localhost>
	<5.1.0.14.0.20070215112850.00bee9a0@localhost>
	<Pine.LNX.4.63.0702151607110.26266@cs.wpi.edu>
	<5.1.0.14.0.20070215145929.00bf3c20@localhost>
Message-ID: <a14a87410702151629h4528dd92g476061a033b0b837@mail.gmail.com>

On 2/15/07, Dennis Reinhardt <DennisR at dair.com> wrote:
> At 02:21 PM 2/15/2007, Chad Netzer wrote:
>
> >Dennis, you said in your example, "The final time.sleep(2000) is to
> >allow time for garbage collection to reduce memory usage."  However,
> >that certainly will have no effect with CPython, nor do operating
> >system memory allocators work that way.
>
>
> I read at http://docs.python.org/lib/module-gc.html where it says
>
>          "tune the collection frequency"
>
> and other statements on this page to mean that the garbage collector makes
> periodic sweeps of object references.

Note that the "garbage collector module" in CPython refers to the
cyclic-reference garbage collector, not the normal reference count
garbage collecting system.  In general, objects are destroyed
immediately after their reference count drops to zero, rather than
when a separate garbage collector thread decides to mark them as
garbage.

Hence, if you want to collect any unreachable cycles, gc.collect()
should definitely replace any sleep() calls.

I'm happy to hear that, as of 2.5, CPython can now return blocks of
memory used to allocate small objects to the system on occasion.
Hmmm, let's see...

Cool!  I just tried it!  First, fire up python 2.4 (or less) and input this:


class Foo:
    pass

l = [Foo() for i in xrange(1000000)]


Now we have a list of small user created objects, and the Python
process on my machine is using 217 MB of virtual mem (and 184 MB real
mem).  If I delete the list:

del l

My process is now using 213 virtual (181 real), so although the memory
is available for reuse by Python's object allocator, it is not
returned to the system (ie. it is not free()'d).  This means I can
make the same list again:

l = [Foo() for i in xrange(1000000)]

and the python process now uses the same max amount of memory as
before (217 MB virtual/184MB real).


Now, trying the same thing in Python 2.5:

class Foo:
    pass

l = [Foo() for i in xrange(1000000)]

and I get 219 MB virtual memory used (185 MB real memory).  However,
now when I delete the list:

del l

My virtual memory usage drops back down to 37 MB (3 MB real), which is
practically what it started with.  So, although this is a contrived
small object usage example, I think it is kinda neat. :)

Chad

PS. Yes, Anna, this isn't really beginner night material; just fun to discuss.

From alvinwang at gmail.com  Fri Feb 16 01:37:42 2007
From: alvinwang at gmail.com (Alvin Wang)
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2007 16:37:42 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] Pycon 2008 Bid Status
Message-ID: <77d044440702151637m324524eevf2b41aaf883b5d27@mail.gmail.com>

I am sure some of you may be wondering what is happening.
Originally, there were 3 other cities other than SF interested.  Boston,
Cleveland and Chicago.  Boston and Cleveland have pretty much dropped out.
I missed the online chat where Chicago detailed their status.  From some
emails, it seems like they are having a few problems.  They should still get
a bid in.

I contacted the Santa Clara and San Mateo  Convention/Visitor Bureaus.  Got
some bids.  Had 2 finalists - San Mateo Marriott and Santa Clara Marriott.
I am going with San Mateo Marriott.

Santa Clara Marriott is a little bigger.  I am hoping that we can attract
more people but it is not guaranteed.  Santa Clara is planning on trying to
rent out any space that we do not use.  San Mateo is going to give us all
the meeting space 24x7.  For the time of the conference, we will own the
hotel so they are planning on being very accommodating.

The decision will be made at Pycon.  It is a 2 year bid.

If the bid is accepted, Pycon will be signing the contract.  It also has a
core of volunteers to work on the conference.  Personally, I am planning on
focusing on increasing local attendance by working with other local user
groups and finding SV speakers.  Hopefully, there will be a lot of interest
from Baypiggies in helping out.  I already have a list of several
volunteers.


-- 
Alvin Wang
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From DennisR at dair.com  Fri Feb 16 01:58:53 2007
From: DennisR at dair.com (Dennis Reinhardt)
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2007 16:58:53 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] Discussion for newbies/beginner night talks - test
 results
In-Reply-To: <a14a87410702151629h4528dd92g476061a033b0b837@mail.gmail.co
 m>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20070215145929.00bf3c20@localhost>
	<1171081738.2A2879EE@gf28.dngr.org>
	<5.1.0.14.0.20070209204012.00be9ae8@localhost>
	<c41f67b90702131433r44e8521av49cc008fe877861@mail.gmail.com>
	<5.1.0.14.0.20070214082207.00beb440@localhost>
	<5.1.0.14.0.20070215112850.00bee9a0@localhost>
	<Pine.LNX.4.63.0702151607110.26266@cs.wpi.edu>
	<5.1.0.14.0.20070215145929.00bf3c20@localhost>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20070215164640.00bef830@localhost>

At 04:29 PM 2/15/2007, Chad Netzer wrote:
>Note that the "garbage collector module" in CPython refers to the
>cyclic-reference garbage collector, not the normal reference count
>garbage collecting system.  In general, objects are destroyed
>immediately after their reference count drops to zero, rather than
>when a separate garbage collector thread decides to mark them as
>garbage.

Distinction noted.  It was not entirely clear to me which case applied to 
my code:

         1) N objects all having reference counts of 0 or
         2) N objects with N-1 references counts of 1 in
            a chain with 1 object having 0 references.

IOW, I was not clear which model applied to my situation.  I was abetted in 
not having a clear picture of this because memory I expected to be returned 
to OS was not returned. I was holding open the possibility that the 
cyclic-reference collector might apply.

>I'm happy to hear that, as of 2.5, CPython can now return blocks of
>memory used to allocate small objects to the system on occasion.
>Hmmm, let's see...
>
>Cool!

Yes, Cool!  Great stuff.

  ---------------------------------
| Dennis    | DennisR at dair.com    |
| Reinhardt | http://www.dair.com |
  ---------------------------------


From aahz at pythoncraft.com  Fri Feb 16 22:14:40 2007
From: aahz at pythoncraft.com (Aahz)
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2007 13:14:40 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] Pycon 2008 Bid Status
In-Reply-To: <77d044440702151637m324524eevf2b41aaf883b5d27@mail.gmail.com>
References: <77d044440702151637m324524eevf2b41aaf883b5d27@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20070216211440.GA1942@panix.com>

On Thu, Feb 15, 2007, Alvin Wang wrote:
>
> The decision will be made at Pycon.  It is a 2 year bid.
> 
> If the bid is accepted, Pycon will be signing the contract.  It also
> has a core of volunteers to work on the conference.  Personally, I am
> planning on focusing on increasing local attendance by working with
> other local user groups and finding SV speakers.  Hopefully, there
> will be a lot of interest from Baypiggies in helping out.  I already
> have a list of several volunteers.

Just to clarify, it will be the PSF signing the bid.  I'm not sure how
much additional time I'll have available for a local PyCon, but I've been
involved with every PyCon so far and have been to two of them.  I'll also
have some experience with the San Mateo Marriott this coming May/July
(Baycon and Westercon will be there).

Sure would be nice to win this!
-- 
Aahz (aahz at pythoncraft.com)           <*>         http://www.pythoncraft.com/

"I disrespectfully agree."  --SJM

From aahz at pythoncraft.com  Fri Feb 16 23:08:41 2007
From: aahz at pythoncraft.com (Aahz)
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2007 14:08:41 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] Memory usage
In-Reply-To: <c41f67b90702151509l47119fddr3d1aafb79236a521@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1171081738.2A2879EE@gf28.dngr.org>
	<5.1.0.14.0.20070209204012.00be9ae8@localhost>
	<c41f67b90702131433r44e8521av49cc008fe877861@mail.gmail.com>
	<5.1.0.14.0.20070214082207.00beb440@localhost>
	<5.1.0.14.0.20070215112850.00bee9a0@localhost>
	<Pine.LNX.4.63.0702151607110.26266@cs.wpi.edu>
	<a14a87410702151421t3b6fd654kdc109572d6497e67@mail.gmail.com>
	<c41f67b90702151509l47119fddr3d1aafb79236a521@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20070216220841.GA13291@panix.com>

On Thu, Feb 15, 2007, Shannon -jj Behrens wrote:
>
> I saw a talk at PyCon two years ago that said that Python would never
> give memory back to the OS.  That's probably changed, but I'd check
> first.

That's "partly changed", not "probably changed".  ;-)  PyMalloc does
change the way Python interacts with malloc(), but many OSes never return
memory to the system free pool until an application exits.  OTOH, it
mostly doesn't matter, either: even when it's not returned to the general
OS pool, memory that is free()'d is usually marked such that it doesn't
require physical RAM.
-- 
Aahz (aahz at pythoncraft.com)           <*>         http://www.pythoncraft.com/

"I disrespectfully agree."  --SJM

From aahz at pythoncraft.com  Fri Feb 16 23:14:21 2007
From: aahz at pythoncraft.com (Aahz)
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2007 14:14:21 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] What garbage!
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20070215145929.00bf3c20@localhost>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.63.0702151607110.26266@cs.wpi.edu>
	<1171081738.2A2879EE@gf28.dngr.org>
	<5.1.0.14.0.20070209204012.00be9ae8@localhost>
	<c41f67b90702131433r44e8521av49cc008fe877861@mail.gmail.com>
	<5.1.0.14.0.20070214082207.00beb440@localhost>
	<5.1.0.14.0.20070215112850.00bee9a0@localhost>
	<Pine.LNX.4.63.0702151607110.26266@cs.wpi.edu>
	<5.1.0.14.0.20070215145929.00bf3c20@localhost>
Message-ID: <20070216221421.GB13291@panix.com>

On Thu, Feb 15, 2007, Dennis Reinhardt wrote:
> At 02:21 PM 2/15/2007, Chad Netzer wrote:
>> 
>>Dennis, you said in your example, "The final time.sleep(2000) is to
>>allow time for garbage collection to reduce memory usage."  However,
>>that certainly will have no effect with CPython, nor do operating
>>system memory allocators work that way.
> 
> I read at http://docs.python.org/lib/module-gc.html where it says
> 
>          "tune the collection frequency"
> 
> and other statements on this page to mean that the garbage collector makes 
> periodic sweeps of object references.  I do not see what the timing is.  I 
> did provide for a window in this code so that if such a sweep resulted in 
> lowering memory requirements, I had provided for time to go by.

Generally speaking, GC runs depend on object allocation/de-allocation,
not clock time.  GC will run when X number of objects have been created
without deallocating them.  (There are some subtleties involved, but
that's the essence.)  As Chad pointed out, this is separate from Python's
regular refcount mechanism.
-- 
Aahz (aahz at pythoncraft.com)           <*>         http://www.pythoncraft.com/

"I disrespectfully agree."  --SJM

From rdm at cfcl.com  Tue Feb 20 22:10:56 2007
From: rdm at cfcl.com (Rich Morin)
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2007 13:10:56 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] BASS Meeting (SF), Wed, Feb, 28
Message-ID: <p06230912c20111312f97@[192.168.1.205]>

So, we'll have Perlies; what about Pythonistas and Rubyists?

> Subject: [sf-perl] Wednesday, February 28:  Beer and Scripting SIG
> Reply-To: San Francisco Perl Mongers User Group <sanfrancisco-pm at pm.org>
>
> Once again we're merging with Rich's excellent Beer and Scripting SIG
> (BASS).  More people + more perspectives = better meeting.  In fact,
> last month's meeting was so successful that I'm making this the
> default for dinner meetings.  Thanks, Rich!
>
> All the details are here:  http://www.cfcl.com/rdm/bass/  RSVPs
> are appreciated.

For your convenience, here are the critical details:

  Date:   Wednesday, February 28, 2007 (4th. Wed.)
  Time:   8:00 pm
  Place:  Wild Pepper
          3601 26th St. (near San Jose Ave.)
          San Francisco, California, USA
          415/695-767[89]

-r
-- 
http://www.cfcl.com/rdm            Rich Morin
http://www.cfcl.com/rdm/resume     rdm at cfcl.com
http://www.cfcl.com/rdm/weblog     +1 650-873-7841

Technical editing and writing, programming, and web development

From jaffe.mark at gmail.com  Thu Feb 22 03:21:15 2007
From: jaffe.mark at gmail.com (Mark Jaffe)
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2007 18:21:15 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] [OT] Seeking meeting attendee...
Message-ID: <5EFC0084-984A-4502-859A-C6981A87C4F0@gmail.com>

Hi,

At the September meeting, I met a test engineer who works at Tesla  
Motors in San Carlos. I bantered with her a bit, but we did not  
exchange contact info. At this time, I have a professional interest  
in resuming contact, but am not sure how to do so. I apologize that I  
do not recall her name, either (damned ADD!) I thought the Wiki pages  
would contain past attendees names, but did not find them. If the  
lady in question is on the list, please respond to my query.

Thanks,
Mark

From ken at seehart.com  Thu Feb 22 19:36:19 2007
From: ken at seehart.com (Ken Seehart)
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2007 10:36:19 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] PyCon 2007
In-Reply-To: <5EFC0084-984A-4502-859A-C6981A87C4F0@gmail.com>
References: <5EFC0084-984A-4502-859A-C6981A87C4F0@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <45DDE2A3.6040704@seehart.com>

Hello from Texas!

Just finished /*Faster Python Programs through Optimization and 
Extensions I* 
<http://www.python-academy.de/download/pycon/fasterpython_I.pdf> /tutorial.

Started a little slowly with comparisons of list joins vs sequential 
string concatenation, etc, while showing how to use time.clock() to 
compare performance.

Started getting interesting with some real tools, like Numpy 
<http://numpy.scipy.org/>.

Most valuable insight for me: look at Psyco 
<http://psyco.sourceforge.net/>.  This has got to be the quickest way to 
get a performance boost (about 4x in some examples) on Intel processors 
without any effort.  Two lines of code will often do the trick.
import psyco
psyco.full() # converts and binds all of your functions to native code

Also looked at pyrex, a custom language which makes it pretty easy way 
to rewrite existing python code and wrap existing C/C++ code to be 
compiled with a C compiler.  Seems easier than boost or swig (except 
perhaps for large API libraries), and much easier than hand coding C 
extensions.

# file: mc_pi_pyrex_fast.pyx
cdef extern from "math.h": #1
double sqrt(double x) #2
cdef extern from "stdlib.h": #3
int rand() #4
int RAND_MAX #5
def piPyrex(int n):
cdef int count_inside, count #6
cdef float x, y #7
count_inside = 0
for count from 0 <= count < n: #8
x = rand() #9
y = rand()
d = sqrt(x*x + y*y) #10
if d < RAND_MAX: #11
count_inside = count_inside + 1
return 4.0 * count_inside / n

Covered ctypes for yet another way to wrap a DLL or shared library.

Compared a variety of tools for relative speed (see the pdf 
<http://www.python-academy.de/download/pycon/fasterpython_I.pdf>).

- Ken Seehart
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From ken at seehart.com  Thu Feb 22 19:39:12 2007
From: ken at seehart.com (Ken Seehart)
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2007 10:39:12 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] PyCon 2007
In-Reply-To: <45DDE2A3.6040704@seehart.com>
References: <5EFC0084-984A-4502-859A-C6981A87C4F0@gmail.com>
	<45DDE2A3.6040704@seehart.com>
Message-ID: <45DDE350.6010902@seehart.com>

Oops, that last message should just be addressed to baypiggies at python.org.
- Ken




From akennedy93612 at yahoo.com  Fri Feb 23 03:11:11 2007
From: akennedy93612 at yahoo.com (Douglas Kennedy)
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2007 18:11:11 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Baypiggies] How to embed Flash Player Controls within a Python
	app...
Message-ID: <484901.94943.qm@web54504.mail.yahoo.com>

Hi Python users,

I am seeking some help or at least direction.

I am developing a python application that is a learning center.

Part of the requirement is that it not be browser based.

Python seems to a practice choice so far.

The videos and screencast videos are going to be produced
using the Camtasia Studio also requirement in a FLV/SWF format.

The learning center application needs to have embedded within
its screen the video window. Found wxpython that allows the video
to be called from a python.

The problem is that have not found any way to control the video?
Typical controls play,stop, pause,rewind, fast forward etc...

Maybe I am missing it I have not found the controls within python 
or wxpython to control a flash video.

Well, Python users any direction?

Your help is and will continue to be appreciated.

thanks,

Doug


P.S... I have been using this list for a couple of years now and it has
been of benefit in many ways thanks. I hope to in the future enjoy your gatherings...


 
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From bsergean at gmail.com  Sat Feb 24 18:16:38 2007
From: bsergean at gmail.com (Benjamin Sergeant)
Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2007 09:16:38 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] PyCon 2007
In-Reply-To: <45DDE2A3.6040704@seehart.com>
References: <5EFC0084-984A-4502-859A-C6981A87C4F0@gmail.com>
	<45DDE2A3.6040704@seehart.com>
Message-ID: <FE96F180-26A6-4787-BE30-D7425922E964@gmail.com>

Quite interesting, and for those who'd like to go farther on the  
assumption:
'Assuming an infinte number of points the ratio of points may be used  
instead of the areas, so: '

? = 4 numberof pointsinside / totalnumberof points

Here is an explanation in french
http://serge.mehl.free.fr/anx/pi_alea.html

Benjamin.


Le 22 f?vr. 07 ? 10:36, Ken Seehart a ?crit :

> Hello from Texas!
>
> Just finished Faster Python Programs through Optimization and  
> Extensions I tutorial.
>
> Started a little slowly with comparisons of list joins vs  
> sequential string concatenation, etc, while showing how to use  
> time.clock() to compare performance.
>
> Started getting interesting with some real tools, like Numpy.
>
> Most valuable insight for me: look at Psyco.  This has got to be  
> the quickest way to get a performance boost (about 4x in some  
> examples) on Intel processors without any effort.  Two lines of  
> code will often do the trick.
> import psyco
> psyco.full() # converts and binds all of your functions to native code
>
> Also looked at pyrex, a custom language which makes it pretty easy  
> way to rewrite existing python code and wrap existing C/C++ code to  
> be compiled with a C compiler.  Seems easier than boost or swig  
> (except perhaps for large API libraries), and much easier than hand  
> coding C extensions.
>
> # file: mc_pi_pyrex_fast.pyx
> cdef extern from "math.h": #1
> double sqrt(double x) #2
> cdef extern from "stdlib.h": #3
> int rand() #4
> int RAND_MAX #5
> def piPyrex(int n):
> cdef int count_inside, count #6
> cdef float x, y #7
> count_inside = 0
> for count from 0 <= count < n: #8
> x = rand() #9
> y = rand()
> d = sqrt(x*x + y*y) #10
> if d < RAND_MAX: #11
> count_inside = count_inside + 1
> return 4.0 * count_inside / n
>
> Covered ctypes for yet another way to wrap a DLL or shared library.
>
> Compared a variety of tools for relative speed (see the pdf).
>
> - Ken Seehart
> _______________________________________________
> Baypiggies mailing list
> Baypiggies at python.org
> To change your subscription options or unsubscribe:
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies

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From keith at dartworks.biz  Mon Feb 26 14:34:30 2007
From: keith at dartworks.biz (Keith Dart)
Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2007 05:34:30 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] new web application framework.
Message-ID: <20070226053430.3c0f823b@tinker.homenetwork>


After some experience with the Django web application framework, and
studying other frameworks such as Pylons and Paste, I decided to
create yet another framework. ;-) This one is closer to my idea of
"perfection" in a framework. ;-) It's salient features over other is:

Runs on Linux
Python based.
No threads.
Integrated lighttpd and fastCGI coprocesses.
Virtual hosting.
Process controller (with restart).
Fast.
Standards compliant.
No templates required.
Modern WSGI interface.
Object oriented.
As flexible as Python itself.

But... it's new and not fully tested.

-- 

-- ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
   Keith Dart <keith at dartworks.biz>
   public key: ID: 19017044
   =====================================================================

From alvinwang at gmail.com  Mon Feb 26 10:36:13 2007
From: alvinwang at gmail.com (Alvin Wang)
Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2007 01:36:13 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] FYI Chicago is Pycon 2008
Message-ID: <77d044440702260136ld182503td9b6af7ada572097@mail.gmail.com>

Hi,

They announced the winner after I left on Sunday so I got the info late.
Anyway Chicago won.

http://chipy.org/ChiPyCon_2008_Bid

There were several reasons.
- cheaper, they felt that Chicago would be a reasonable incremental increase
in room rate.
- bigger - this year was 40% larger than last year.  They expect at least
that large a jump by coming to the Bay Area.
- Chicago stacked the quiz responses from 2006.  Chicago was the most asked
for venue.  In talking to people that were not from Chicago, SF was widely
preferred.  Chicago has a lot of people at the conference.

I pitched Santa Clara too after some people expressed concern about San
Mateo's size.

I got the feeling that they wanted to split the win since 2 cities put in
good bids.  Chicago was cheaper and had a lot of people so they went first.

There is a very good possibility that 2009 will be awarded prior to 2008.
The problem is that 2009 will be even larger.  They are going to contact me
about it.  I am planning on looking into a few more options.


Thanks
Alvin
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From eric at ericwalstad.com  Mon Feb 26 17:43:00 2007
From: eric at ericwalstad.com (Eric Walstad)
Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2007 08:43:00 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] new web application framework.
In-Reply-To: <20070226053430.3c0f823b@tinker.homenetwork>
References: <20070226053430.3c0f823b@tinker.homenetwork>
Message-ID: <200702260843.00463.eric@ericwalstad.com>

On Monday 26 February 2007 05:34, Keith Dart wrote:
> After some experience with the Django web application framework, and
> studying other frameworks such as Pylons and Paste, I decided to
> create yet another framework. ;-) This one is closer to my idea of
> "perfection" in a framework. ;-) It's salient features over other is:
>
> Runs on Linux
> Python based.
> No threads.
> Integrated lighttpd and fastCGI coprocesses.
> Virtual hosting.
> Process controller (with restart).
> Fast.
> Standards compliant.
> No templates required.
> Modern WSGI interface.
> Object oriented.
> As flexible as Python itself.
>
> But... it's new and not fully tested.

Hi Keith,

I'd like to have a look at it.  Do you have a URL?

Best,

Eric.

From keith at dartworks.biz  Mon Feb 26 21:51:21 2007
From: keith at dartworks.biz (Keith Dart)
Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2007 12:51:21 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] new web application framework.
In-Reply-To: <200702260843.00463.eric@ericwalstad.com>
References: <20070226053430.3c0f823b@tinker.homenetwork>
	<200702260843.00463.eric@ericwalstad.com>
Message-ID: <20070226125121.0058f81f@tinker.homenetwork>

On Mon, 26 Feb 2007 08:43:00 -0800
Eric Walstad <eric at ericwalstad.com> wrote:

> I'd like to have a look at it.  Do you have a URL?

Thanks. Currently, the code is hosted on Google code hosting:


http://code.google.com/p/pynms/

You can use subversion to get a working copy from there. 

As for "showing off" the framework, with documentation, I'm still
working on the content so that's not available yet. It will likely be a
while, but eventually you'll see something on http://www.pynms.net/


Please don't hesitate to ask questions about it, since I know the
documentation is lacking.



-- 

-- ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
   Keith Dart <keith at dartworks.biz>
   public key: ID: 19017044
   <http://www.dartworks.biz/>
   =====================================================================

From marilyn at deliberate.com  Tue Feb 27 20:33:02 2007
From: marilyn at deliberate.com (Marilyn Davis)
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2007 11:33:02 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] The new PyoP List
Message-ID: <20070227193306.D24BB1E4002@bag.python.org>

Hello Python Fans,

I'm sorry I've been so sluggish about getting the new list going.
I've been so swamped with Python classes and preparation for Python
classes that I haven't been able to give this the thought it deserves 
until today.

The Python training business has really picked up the last few months!
I had to give up teaching C.

Here's my draft of the material for the new list.  If anyone can think
of anything I forgot to address, or has any suggestions, please let me
know.  Once this is published, it'll take a 2/3 majority vote to
change anything.  I'm hoping to have all bases covered so that admin issues will be minimized.

Thank you,

Marilyn Davis

-----

PURPOSE

This list is intended to be technical and social support for Python
enthusiasts who meet face-to-face at the monthly Python meetings at
Google in Mountain View, CA.

MEMBERSHIP

Everyone anywhere is welcome to join and participate.  But, in the
event of a vote, only members who have actually attended a live
meeting in the last 3 months, or 2 live meetings in the last year, may
vote, or participate in controversial discussion about administrative
issues.

For the most part, the "vouch-for" system will be used to determine if
a person has voting privileges.  If the current meeting facilitator,
or this list's administrator, or any well-known regular attender can
vouch for your attendance, you get voting privileges; if the current
meeting facilitator, or this list's administrator, or any well-known
regular attender can vouch for someone who can vouch for you, you get
voting privileges.  If you wish to keep a low profile at meetings, but
still would like voting privileges, please keep the badges given to
you by Google and be prepared to snail mail them to the current list
administrator, if a vote happens.

ADMINISTRATION

Administrative decisions will be made democratically by the members.
The list administrator's role is to facilitate and implement the will
of the group.

The exception is a case in which an emergency decision is required to
immediately revoke an email address's right to post to the list for
violating the list's rules, given in "RULES" below.  If such a
decision and action is taken, it can be reversed by majority vote as
described below in "VOTING".

The list administrator has a 2 year term, if a new volunteer is
willing to take on the job.  If there are more than one willing
volunteer, an election will be held to decide which candidate will be
the new list administrator.

An election will be held as follows:

1. Two months before the current term ends:

     The current list administrator will call for volunteers to be
     candidates for the next term.  In order to qualify for candidacy,
     a volunteer must:

     1.  have voting privileges on the list.
     2.  be a list member for at least 1 year.
     3.  have his candidacy seconded by at least one voting member.
      
2. One month before the current term ends:

     The election will be held by public or private vote, as is
     deemed practical by the current administrator.  Qualified
     voting members will vote range(-5, 6) for each candidate.
     The candidate with the most positive votes wins.  In case of a
     tie, the candidate with the most positive votes, and fewest
     negative votes wins.  If there is still a tie, the candidate
     with the most positive vote, least negative votes and highest
     average votes wins.  If there is still a tie, the candidates
     with the most positive votes, least negative votes, highest
     average votes will have their names placed in a hat and the
     winner will be picked out of the hat at the next face-to-face
     meeting.

Marilyn Davis is the first list administrator.  Her term expires June
1, 2009.


LIST RULES

1.  The name of the list/group is "Python on the Peninsula".

2.  Discussion about these rules are welcome but will be clearly
marked with "ADMIN" in the subject line.

3.  No flaming.  Make your point without attacking the person.

4.  If you wish to send private email to a list member, and you want
that mail to remain private, you must first write the list member to
ask permission to engage in a private conversation and receive a
message back encouraging a private conversation.

5.  Job ads must be clearly marked with "JOB" in the subject line.

6.  Only first-party job ads are allowed; no "head-hunters".

7.  Ads for jobs outside the SF Bay Area are not allowed, unless the
prospective employer is offering to pay moving expenses.


VOTING

To change a list rule, given above:

1.  A change is proposed by one member with voting privileges.  See
MEMBERSHIP, above, for the definition of a "member with voting
privileges".

2.  The change is seconded by a different member with voting
privileges.  

3.  There is a 2 week period for discussion before a poll is taken.

4.  Voting is +1 to vote for the proposal
               0 to abstain
              -1 to reject the proposal

5.  The poll is open for 1 month.

6.  A 2/3 positive/negative vote is required to change a rule.

To reverse an emergency decision made by the list administrator
(see ADMINISTRATION above):

1.  The reversal is proposed by one member with voting privileges.

2.  The reversal is seconded by a different member with voting
priviledges.

3.  There is a 24 hour period for discussion before a poll is taken.

4.  Voting is +1 to vote for the reversal
               0 to abstain
              -1 to reject the reversal

5.  The poll is open for 1 week except in the special case explained
in # 7, below.

6.  51% positive/negative vote is required to reverse an emergency
decision.

7.  If there is a 2/3 positive/negative vote, and at least 20 voters,
at any time before the 1 week of voting expires, the emergency
decision will be reversed.

-----




From marilyn at deliberate.com  Tue Feb 27 20:47:39 2007
From: marilyn at deliberate.com (Marilyn Davis)
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2007 11:47:39 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] New PyOP List - wasRe: [vote] name change
Message-ID: <20070227210246.6D4F91E400C@bag.python.org>


----- On Thursday, February 8, 2007 jjinux at gmail.com wrote:

> On 2/8/07, Marilyn Davis  wrote:
>> JJ said:
>> >
>> > Again, don't mistake my ignorance for malice.  I posed that poll
>>
>> I know.  I know you are not malicious.  But please nullify that mis-poll as
> a mistake.
> 
> It's true that I mistook what you, a member of the list, were
> interested in.  Still, the poll served to tell me what the readership
> thought.  It answered my question.  What's to nullify about that?
> 
>> We already took that poll in a carefully legitimate way and the previous
> poll should be respected: 35% think the name is bad enough to warrant
> changing.  A group of marketeers would take that number very seriously.  But
> we are technical people.
> 
> Fair enough.  Unfortunately, I can't violate the will of the 65% majority.
> 

Of course not.  But the 65% might reconsider the wisdom of sticking to a name that 35% find unpleasant.  We'll never know how many more find it too uncomfortable to join.

>> The up-side is that the incident gave me the opportunity to teach something
> about democracy, which is my #1 calling:  http://www.deliberate.com
>>
>> Teaching Python, and whatever other little gigs I get, support the democracy
> work.
>>
>> Please understand and not take offense, that I can't, voluntarily, be
> subject to a dictator, no matter how benevolent, charming and good.
> 
> Do you also refuse to use Linux?  I purposely took the term
> "benevolent dictator" from Linus's original usage.  In fact, while it
> may be called a benevolent dictatorship, at its heart, this is really
> a meritocracy.  Those who give the most make the most decisions.

I use and advocate the "GNU System", which includes Linus' kernel.  The motto is "GNU's Not Unix! - Free Software, Free Society".  I really get the connection and know it will become more apparent to everyone as the future unfolds.

> 
>> So I started another email list/group: PyOP "Python on the Peninsula".
> 
> Ok.  I wish you the best of luck in your future endeavors.  Before you
> leave, I'd like to say thank you for all your contributions.
> 
>> As soon as you get the announce list happening, I'll be leaving Baypiggies,
> although I do expect my participation in the meetings to grow when I'm not
> weighed down by the name, "piggies".
>>
>> This happened:
>>
>> ----- On Tuesday, February 6, 2007 brad at python.org wrote:
>>
>> > At 12:25 PM -0800 2/6/07, Marilyn Davis wrote:
>> >
>> >>  Hello Python.org Postmasters,
>> >>
>> >>  Would you please make a pyop at python.org email list?
>> >
>> > Done.
>> >
>> >>  It will be a democratically-administrated email list for ???*???Python on
>> >>  the Peninsula???*??? -- the SF Bay Peninsula.
>> >
>> > Noted in the short description of the list.
>> >
>> >>  Baypiggies is the  whole SF Bay area, and I hope/expect the list to
>> >>  be populated with people who attend the live meetings.  Everyone is
>> >>  welcome, of course.  But to earn voting rights, you must have
>> >>  attended one meeting in the last 3 months, or 2 meetings in the last year.
>> >>
>> >>  I hope a few democratic rules of order are ok in a python.org list.
>> >
>> > So far as I know, so long as the rules don't discriminate with
>> > regards to race, religion, creed, gender, sexual preferences, etc...
>> > you should be able to run your list pretty much however you want.
>> >
>> >>  I'll be the first admin, but I hope there is enough enthusiasm that
>> >>  someone else will want to be the admin in a year.
>> >
>> > Fair enough.
>> >
>> > I've pre-filled in a few things on the list, including an
>> > introductory description which has a few standard list policies
>> > regarding the archives, etc....  If you want to change these, that's
>> [rest clipped]
>>
>> I have a big deadline on Monday so I don't have much time for fiddling with
> this right now but I'll try to get it all set next week with some starting
> rules.
>>
>> So that you understand my action I'll explain that, as a democracy activist,
> in league with Zapatistas and other democracy activists. I see that the
> threatening demise of the planet is the war between
> corporate-governmental-military monster and democracy/people: a war between
> the dominant/submissant model and the cooperative model. Being part of this
> struggle, I feel I am betraying the cause and the earth if I willingly
> participate where democratic forms are disrespected ... and then there's the
> name thing.
> 
> Wow.  Ok.  I guess we each have our causes.  Personally, mine is open
> source, and it drives me crazy to ever have to use anything closed
> source. 

Open source and democracy are the same cause.  Or, they are subclassed from the same cause: dominant/submissant vs cooperative.

Indeed, racism, sexism, imperialism, ... all the ism's that tear us apart are that dominant/submissant model.

[much deleted]

JJ, it is a pleasure to discuss with you.

Always your fan,

Marilyn



From grayarea at reddagger.org  Wed Feb 28 00:21:29 2007
From: grayarea at reddagger.org (jwithers)
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2007 15:21:29 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] The new PyoP List
In-Reply-To: <20070227193306.D24BB1E4002@bag.python.org>
References: <20070227193306.D24BB1E4002@bag.python.org>
Message-ID: <1172618489.9349.711.camel@localhost>


> PURPOSE
> 
> This list is intended to be technical and social support for Python
> enthusiasts who meet face-to-face at the monthly Python meetings at
> Google in Mountain View, CA.

Sorry, just trying to make sure I actually understand this, because it
seems slightly surreal. What is happening is that a new list is being
split off of the baypiggies mailing list by someone who doesn't like the
name, but the point of the list is providing technical and social
support to people who attend the monthly meeting at Google, which is,
unless I am missing something, the monthly Bay PIGgies meeting? And the
physical meeting is actually called that and not planning on changing
its name?

Or am I misunderstanding what is happening here?

jpw


From wescpy at gmail.com  Wed Feb 28 01:26:46 2007
From: wescpy at gmail.com (wesley chun)
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2007 16:26:46 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] The new PyoP List
In-Reply-To: <1172618489.9349.711.camel@localhost>
References: <20070227193306.D24BB1E4002@bag.python.org>
	<1172618489.9349.711.camel@localhost>
Message-ID: <78b3a9580702271626i747d44few5f9cf9d218bbe2b7@mail.gmail.com>

> > PURPOSE
> >
> > This list is intended to be technical and social support for Python
> > enthusiasts who meet face-to-face at the monthly Python meetings at
> > Google in Mountain View, CA.
>
> Sorry, just trying to make sure I actually understand this, because it
> seems slightly surreal. What is happening is that a new list is being
> split off of the baypiggies mailing list by someone who doesn't like the
> name, but the point of the list is providing technical and social
> support to people who attend the monthly meeting at Google, which is,
> unless I am missing something, the monthly Bay PIGgies meeting? And the
> physical meeting is actually called that and not planning on changing
> its name?
>
> Or am I misunderstanding what is happening here?


i believe that your description is accurate.  this original mailing
list, which JJ has now assumed the moderator role for, is for *both*
those who attend meetings as well as those who don't, and consist of
folks who both like the name *and* dislike it. the key differentiator
is that once the group splits off into these 2 separate lists, members
of this main list will no longer discuss issues that have been put to
rest and that we can once again return to the almost-silent list that
BayPIGgies has been known for since 1999 until 2005.

cheers,
-wesley

From tungwaiyip at yahoo.com  Wed Feb 28 02:34:12 2007
From: tungwaiyip at yahoo.com (Tung Wai Yip)
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2007 17:34:12 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] Pycon 2007
In-Reply-To: <77d044440702260136ld182503td9b6af7ada572097@mail.gmail.com>
References: <77d044440702260136ld182503td9b6af7ada572097@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <op.tofqjgq4oiuain@smtp.mail.yahoo.com>

For those who cannot attend PyCon 2007, this is a report by Jeremy Jones  
on oreillynet:

http://www.oreillynet.com/onlamp/blog/2007/02/pycon_day_1_1.html
http://www.oreillynet.com/onlamp/blog/2007/02/pycon_day_2.html
http://www.oreillynet.com/onlamp/blog/2007/02/pycon_day_3.html

The talk schedule is available at

http://us.pycon.org/apps07/talks/

Unfortunately the audio and material links indicates "Release Form not on  
File" for all talks. Perhaps the organizers haven't got to update the site  
yet?

Wai Yip

From keith at dartworks.biz  Wed Feb 28 02:49:35 2007
From: keith at dartworks.biz (Keith Dart)
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2007 17:49:35 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] web developers - Perfect python framework?
Message-ID: <20070227174935.1f4e25ef@tinker.homenetwork>

I curious to know what those of you who develop web based applications,
in Python or not, would consider to be a "perfect" framework. Anyone
care to enumerate their ideas?

-- 

-- ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
   Keith Dart <keith at dartworks.biz>
   public key: ID: 19017044
   <http://www.dartworks.biz/>
   =====================================================================

From keith at dartworks.biz  Wed Feb 28 04:32:47 2007
From: keith at dartworks.biz (Keith Dart)
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2007 19:32:47 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] Discussion for newbies/beginner night talks
In-Reply-To: <c41f67b90702131533u71d54477wbf30bdf8bff6d03b@mail.gmail.com>
References: <a14a87410702091430v63871956sf1cc2f7ef55b18b9@mail.gmail.com>
	<8249c4ac0702091604o54e306cfu8f60dabe670f57aa@mail.gmail.com>
	<32ef362c7a25f2e88a66b9d27384ef2a@well.com>
	<200702111801.31819.ddf@lka.com>
	<c41f67b90702131502v6c6ff1fcif533a46a8c584ec9@mail.gmail.com>
	<c41f67b90702131515n46b69e4epe548be85eb4e2407@mail.gmail.com>
	<c41f67b90702131516m1adb07ffs60ff648a15bb97d5@mail.gmail.com>
	<c41f67b90702131533u71d54477wbf30bdf8bff6d03b@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20070227193247.004c3f0e@tinker.homenetwork>

On Tue, 13 Feb 2007 15:33:53 -0800
"Shannon -jj Behrens" <jjinux at gmail.com> wrote:

> #) Monkey patching!
> 
> At runtime, anything is hackable.  Sometimes you have to rely on a
> third party library that does the wrong thing.  Now, you should start

How's this for "monkey patching":

    import new
    parser = xml.sax.sax2exts.XMLParserFactory.make_parser()
    ...

    # since the xml API provides some generic parser I can't just
    # subclass I have to "patch" the object in-place with this trick.
    # This is to a) make the API compatible with the HTMLParser, and b)
    # allow specifing the encoding in the request.
    parser.parse_orig = parser.parse
    def parse(self, url, data=None, encoding=POM.DEFAULT_ENCODING):
        import WWW.urllibplus
        fo = WWW.urllibplus.urlopen(url, data, encoding)
        return self.parse_orig(fo)
    parser.parse = new.instancemethod(parse, parser, parser.__class__)
    return parser


(sorry about the late reply)


-- 

-- ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
   Keith Dart <keith at dartworks.biz>
   public key: ID: 19017044
   <http://www.dartworks.biz/>
   =====================================================================

From zia at cruzio.com  Wed Feb 28 06:26:20 2007
From: zia at cruzio.com (Doug Landauer)
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2007 21:26:20 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] New PyOP List
In-Reply-To: <20070227210246.6D4F91E400C@bag.python.org>
References: <20070227210246.6D4F91E400C@bag.python.org>
Message-ID: <df774dc0b8fdcab980d9bf5934129555@cruzio.com>

> Of course not.  But the 65% might reconsider the wisdom of sticking to 
> a name that 35% find unpleasant.  We'll never know how many more find 
> it too uncomfortable to join.

We'll also never know just how much of an overestimate that 35% is.


For what it's worth, there is a twenty-year-old "Psychology of 
Programming
Interest Group" which has embraced the "pig" mascot ... see 
http://www.ppig.org/
(they have a very cool little piggie favicon).   It seems to me that if
experts in psychology are happy to embrace such a symbol, then we who 
are
experts only in programming probably ought at least to let it slide.


  Just my opinion,
    -- Doug L.


From keith at dartworks.biz  Wed Feb 28 11:25:08 2007
From: keith at dartworks.biz (Keith Dart)
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2007 02:25:08 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] The new PyoP List
In-Reply-To: <20070227193306.D24BB1E4002@bag.python.org>
References: <20070227193306.D24BB1E4002@bag.python.org>
Message-ID: <20070228022508.3dbeab7b@tinker.homenetwork>

On Tue, 27 Feb 2007 11:33:02 -0800
Marilyn Davis <marilyn at deliberate.com> wrote:

> Once this is published, it'll take a 2/3 majority vote to
> change anything. 

But if the 1/3 minority doesn't like the decision they can go start
another list, right? ;-)



-- 

-- ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
   Keith Dart <keith at dartworks.biz>
   public key: ID: 19017044
   <http://www.dartworks.biz/>
   =====================================================================

From jim at well.com  Wed Feb 28 15:22:40 2007
From: jim at well.com (jim stockford)
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2007 06:22:40 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] New PyOP List
In-Reply-To: <df774dc0b8fdcab980d9bf5934129555@cruzio.com>
References: <20070227210246.6D4F91E400C@bag.python.org>
	<df774dc0b8fdcab980d9bf5934129555@cruzio.com>
Message-ID: <a19c5c08377701432b0d10f8820b525b@well.com>


please, please let it slide--jj, help!

On Feb 27, 2007, at 9:26 PM, Doug Landauer wrote:

>> Of course not.  But the 65% might reconsider the wisdom of sticking to
>> a name that 35% find unpleasant.  We'll never know how many more find
>> it too uncomfortable to join.
>
> We'll also never know just how much of an overestimate that 35% is.
>
>
> For what it's worth, there is a twenty-year-old "Psychology of
> Programming
> Interest Group" which has embraced the "pig" mascot ... see
> http://www.ppig.org/
> (they have a very cool little piggie favicon).   It seems to me that if
> experts in psychology are happy to embrace such a symbol, then we who
> are
> experts only in programming probably ought at least to let it slide.
>
>
>   Just my opinion,
>     -- Doug L.
>
> _______________________________________________
> Baypiggies mailing list
> Baypiggies at python.org
> To change your subscription options or unsubscribe:
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies
>


From marilyn at deliberate.com  Wed Feb 28 18:15:23 2007
From: marilyn at deliberate.com (Marilyn Davis)
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2007 09:15:23 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] The new PyoP List
Message-ID: <20070228171526.3D7EE1E4014@bag.python.org>

It's true that I'll be happy to get out from under the name.

But, the new list is not about the name, it's about democracy.  It's about respect for democratic process, respect for the dignity of individuals.

I was content to whine about the name, take a careful poll, and then keep quiet.  With the talk of new lists, I proposed a shortened version of the name for the new list(s).  My proposal was manipulated and trampled on and a benevolent dictatorship was declared.

That's what I can't support, even though I like the benevolent dictator.

Marilyn



From bdbaddog at gmail.com  Wed Feb 28 19:49:34 2007
From: bdbaddog at gmail.com (William Deegan)
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2007 10:49:34 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] The new PyoP List
In-Reply-To: <20070228171526.3D7EE1E4014@bag.python.org>
References: <20070228171526.3D7EE1E4014@bag.python.org>
Message-ID: <8540148a0702281049l19b9936fx6ebc5f53326c23c0@mail.gmail.com>

All,

Can I suggest that we leave discussions of Pyop to the Pyop mailling list?

Thanks,
Bill

From Chris.Clark at ingres.com  Wed Feb 28 19:55:31 2007
From: Chris.Clark at ingres.com (Chris Clark)
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2007 10:55:31 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] Output generation - (string
	operations/triple	quote/template)
In-Reply-To: <6a36e7290702132240o5965dda5x9d0c6eb135b1185f@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1171081738.2A2879EE@gf28.dngr.org>	<5.1.0.14.0.20070209204012.00be9ae8@localhost>	<c41f67b90702131433r44e8521av49cc008fe877861@mail.gmail.com>	<op.tnplynhaoiuain@smtp.mail.yahoo.com>	<1171435383.9349.13.camel@localhost>
	<6a36e7290702132240o5965dda5x9d0c6eb135b1185f@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <45E5D023.1080608@ingres.com>

Sorry for the really late reply but I've been having posting problems :-(


Bob Ippolito wrote:
> On 2/13/07, jwithers <grayarea at reddagger.org> wrote:
>   
>>> I agree with JJ that template language is another good alternative,
>>> especially for more complex generation. While this is subjective and
>>> everyone have different criteria, I consider the approach of interleaving
>>> Python code with the target output hard to maintain. It goes back to the
>>> Java Servlet approach and the many addon projects later to provide better
>>> alternatives.
>>>       
>> I have found TAL to be good for taking care of that. Templates, but you
>> are close to forced to move your code outside the templates. Most people
>> don't seem to like it much, but it makes me happy.  Most of Zope gets on
>> my nerves in one way or another, but TAL makes for better separation
>> than the majority of templating systems, and avoids the ugly of building
>> your html inside your code.
>>     
>
> Genshi offers the same paradigm as TAL but uses Python syntax and is a
> bit friendlier to those who want to put code in templates. It's a
> pretty good middle ground in my experience.
>   

Templates are definitely a personal (and project) preference and 
discussions can easily become the next "My dog-shaker is better
than your dog-shaker...". The usual principle of using the right tool
for the right job arises. The main points I looked at when I was looking
for a templating system where:

    * I really wanted to have all code outside of the template, there
      are times when this is useful but I wanted seperate. E.g.
      something TAL like.
    * had to handle Unicode in some form (encoding type really wasn't an
      issue)
    * Create html (i.e. handle html escaping for me), xml/xhtml would
      have been nice but I really needed html
          o I wanted to use a html editor - I wanted/needed to hand
            craft some of the tags but for the most part I wanted to use
            http://www.nvu.com so I didn't have to hand craft
            everything. This meant the replacement indicators had to be
            preserved by my (dumb) html editor that know nothing about
            templating
    * I also needed to bolt in an off the shelf javascript library for
      real time updates of the dom. The library I was using was small
      but did add elements to the original html that wasn't 100%
      compliant so I actually needed to handle bad html
    * Small library!
    * Easy to use library!

Other projects (and personal) requirements will be very different from
mine. The "bad html" kept me from using Genshi, but I do like Genshi a lot.

After lots of experimentation I ended up using
http://freespace.virgin.net/hamish.sanderson/htmltemplate.html - one
thing that annoys me slightly about HTMLTemplate is that you have to
write code to populate the template. I was able to get around that in a
few projects by writing a generic routine to take in a dictionary (like
most templating systems). For the few times that I couldn't use my
generic dict system I ended up with a routine (or routines) that have 1
line per item to be replaced in the template. For large numbers of
elements this was easy to maintain, if you have very few elements this
actual is frustrating and you wonder why you used a template :-)

I'm hopefully that I will be using HTMLTemplate for a while, but I can
envisage a project having different requirements which may mean another
templating system! I'm really going to have to invest in some time in
buffet - http://projects.dowski.com/projects/buffet

Just my 2 cents.

Chris



From Chris.Clark at ingres.com  Wed Feb 28 20:31:26 2007
From: Chris.Clark at ingres.com (Chris Clark)
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2007 11:31:26 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] Output generation - (string
	operations/triple	quote/template)
In-Reply-To: <op.tog36zj0oiuain@smtp.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <1171081738.2A2879EE@gf28.dngr.org>
	<5.1.0.14.0.20070209204012.00be9ae8@localhost>
	<c41f67b90702131433r44e8521av49cc008fe877861@mail.gmail.com>
	<op.tnplynhaoiuain@smtp.mail.yahoo.com>
	<1171435383.9349.13.camel@localhost>
	<6a36e7290702132240o5965dda5x9d0c6eb135b1185f@mail.gmail.com>
	<45E5D023.1080608@ingres.com>
	<op.tog36zj0oiuain@smtp.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <45E5D88E.9080500@ingres.com>

Tung Wai Yip wrote:
> On Wed, 28 Feb 2007 10:55:31 -0800, Chris Clark 
> <Chris.Clark at ingres.com> wrote:
>> After lots of experimentation I ended up using
>> http://freespace.virgin.net/hamish.sanderson/htmltemplate.html - one
>> thing that annoys me slightly about HTMLTemplate is that you have to
>> write code to populate the template. I was able to get around that in a
>> few projects by writing a generic routine to take in a dictionary (like
>> most templating systems). For the few times that I couldn't use my
>> generic dict system I ended up with a routine (or routines) that have 1
>> line per item to be replaced in the template. For large numbers of
>> elements this was easy to maintain, if you have very few elements this
>> actual is frustrating and you wonder why you used a template :-)
>
> I'm a happy user of HTMLTemplate too. Is your enhancement generic 
> enough to contribute back to the project?

I did send it back, as it required some a minor change to be made to 
HTMLTemplate. I got a response back that a new version (v2) will be 
coming out with a slightly different api. The new version will closely 
model the TextTemplate (same web site). I'm not clear if my code was 
accepted though :-)

I'm happy to share my "uses dicts" change, if anyone is interested just 
drop me a mail (it is only a small tar ball).

Chris


From tungwaiyip at yahoo.com  Wed Feb 28 20:24:25 2007
From: tungwaiyip at yahoo.com (Tung Wai Yip)
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2007 11:24:25 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] Output generation - (string
	operations/triple	quote/template)
In-Reply-To: <45E5D023.1080608@ingres.com>
References: <1171081738.2A2879EE@gf28.dngr.org>
	<5.1.0.14.0.20070209204012.00be9ae8@localhost>
	<c41f67b90702131433r44e8521av49cc008fe877861@mail.gmail.com>
	<op.tnplynhaoiuain@smtp.mail.yahoo.com>
	<1171435383.9349.13.camel@localhost>
	<6a36e7290702132240o5965dda5x9d0c6eb135b1185f@mail.gmail.com>
	<45E5D023.1080608@ingres.com>
Message-ID: <op.tog36zj0oiuain@smtp.mail.yahoo.com>

On Wed, 28 Feb 2007 10:55:31 -0800, Chris Clark <Chris.Clark at ingres.com>  
wrote:
> After lots of experimentation I ended up using
> http://freespace.virgin.net/hamish.sanderson/htmltemplate.html - one
> thing that annoys me slightly about HTMLTemplate is that you have to
> write code to populate the template. I was able to get around that in a
> few projects by writing a generic routine to take in a dictionary (like
> most templating systems). For the few times that I couldn't use my
> generic dict system I ended up with a routine (or routines) that have 1
> line per item to be replaced in the template. For large numbers of
> elements this was easy to maintain, if you have very few elements this
> actual is frustrating and you wonder why you used a template :-)

> Chris

Hi Chris,

I'm a happy user of HTMLTemplate too. Is your enhancement generic enough  
to contribute back to the project?

Wai Yip

From jjinux at gmail.com  Wed Feb 28 23:22:01 2007
From: jjinux at gmail.com (Shannon -jj Behrens)
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2007 14:22:01 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] PyCon 2007
Message-ID: <c41f67b90702281422r1803e997r20ac17449476ee33@mail.gmail.com>

Hey guys,

I just finished writing summaries for all the talks I attended at PyCon:

http://jjinux.blogspot.com/search/label/pycon2007

I suggest you read them from bottom to top in order to get them in
chronological order.

Enjoy!
-jj

-- 
http://jjinux.blogspot.com/

From cbc at unc.edu  Tue Feb 27 21:55:09 2007
From: cbc at unc.edu (Chris Calloway)
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2007 15:55:09 -0500
Subject: [Baypiggies] Three days left for Zope3 boot camp registration
Message-ID: <45E49AAD.1010101@unc.edu>

Registration ends Friday:

http://trizpug.org/boot-camp/camp5

-- 
Sincerely,

Chris Calloway
http://www.seacoos.org
office: 332 Chapman Hall   phone: (919) 962-4323
mail: Campus Box #3300, UNC-CH, Chapel Hill, NC 27599