From spmcinerney at hotmail.com  Mon May  1 08:10:29 2006
From: spmcinerney at hotmail.com (Stephen McInerney)
Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2006 23:10:29 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] (AGENDA)  Can we put up May agenda please?
Message-ID: <BAY103-F340FEEC52973E06FDC9894A0B10@phx.gbl>

To whoever is updating the site this month,
can we please put up details for May 11 Google meeting?

My May abstract for Dennis + me was here:
http://mail.python.org/pipermail/baypiggies/2006-April/000632.html


PS When you move the Apr 26 Django talk to Past Meetings, please
add Jacob's link: http://www.snakesandrubies.com/

Thanks in advance,
Stephen



From dyoo at hkn.eecs.berkeley.edu  Mon May  1 09:39:54 2006
From: dyoo at hkn.eecs.berkeley.edu (Danny Yoo)
Date: Mon, 1 May 2006 00:39:54 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Baypiggies] Web site down temporarily;
	accidently deployed Zope prematurely
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0605010039290.17019@hkn.eecs.berkeley.edu>

Hi everyone,

Ok, first the good news: our host graciously got Zope and Plone deployed
on baypiggies.net.  Now the slightly bad news: it got deployed right over
the current baypiggies.net, so nothing's showing on the home page at this
moment (12:37am PST).

I've just requested python-hosting.com to run our Zope instance off a
separate port for now, so I expect this to be fixed as soon as possible.
But just wanted to fire off a quick "maintenance in progress" message just
to ward off any panic.  *grin*

From donnamsnow at gmail.com  Mon May  1 16:06:05 2006
From: donnamsnow at gmail.com (Donna M. Snow)
Date: Mon, 01 May 2006 07:06:05 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] (AGENDA)  Can we put up May agenda please?
In-Reply-To: <BAY103-F340FEEC52973E06FDC9894A0B10@phx.gbl>
References: <BAY103-F340FEEC52973E06FDC9894A0B10@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <445615CD.8090806@gmail.com>

Hi Stephen,

I'll get to updating the site today.. So we should have new material 
online by end of day..

Donna

Stephen McInerney wrote:
> To whoever is updating the site this month,
> can we please put up details for May 11 Google meeting?
>
> My May abstract for Dennis + me was here:
> http://mail.python.org/pipermail/baypiggies/2006-April/000632.html
>
>
> PS When you move the Apr 26 Django talk to Past Meetings, please
> add Jacob's link: http://www.snakesandrubies.com/
>
> Thanks in advance,
> Stephen
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Baypiggies mailing list
> Baypiggies at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies
>
>   


From jjinux at gmail.com  Mon May  1 23:04:47 2006
From: jjinux at gmail.com (Shannon -jj Behrens)
Date: Mon, 1 May 2006 14:04:47 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] Moving forward (was meetup ...)
In-Reply-To: <20060428050122.GA14170@panix.com>
References: <20060426163603.DAD861E4024@bag.python.org>
	<5.1.0.14.0.20060427174556.00be9098@localhost>
	<20060428050122.GA14170@panix.com>
Message-ID: <c41f67b90605011404r7f623644x4779783b4a54ded1@mail.gmail.com>

On 4/27/06, Aahz <aahz at pythoncraft.com> wrote:
> On Thu, Apr 27, 2006, Dennis Reinhardt wrote:
> > At 05:02 PM 4/27/2006, Aahz wrote:
> >>
> >> My bias is toward not changing things.
> >
> > My bias is towards finding changes which represents benefit and moving
> > forward in that direction.
>
> You snipped enough context to radically change the meaning of what I
> said.  I see no point in responding further.

This beating up on Aahz is not in line with the positive spirit of our
group.  I normally wouldn't reply to such political things, but I'd
just like to stick my neck out and say "thanks" to Aahz for all that
he's done.  It's not like we're paying the guy!

-jj

From jjinux at gmail.com  Mon May  1 23:11:20 2006
From: jjinux at gmail.com (Shannon -jj Behrens)
Date: Mon, 1 May 2006 14:11:20 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] Moving forward (was meetup ...)
In-Reply-To: <baf0d46b0604281600u56870b7el90b9c54bbd7a18c3@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20060428145346.0ED6A1E4006@bag.python.org>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.0604281511500.28067@hkn.eecs.berkeley.edu>
	<5.1.0.14.0.20060428153500.00be9ca8@localhost>
	<baf0d46b0604281600u56870b7el90b9c54bbd7a18c3@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <c41f67b90605011411k440c8f49j5a8e77fd16ba1133@mail.gmail.com>

On 4/28/06, Donna Snow <donnamsnow at gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi,
>
> I'm interested in helping to get a CMS (Plone) setup so we can make
> this more of a collaborative online environment instead of dependence
> on one individual to post upcoming information.
>
> I am officially offering space on my Zope/Python/Plone server for the
> baypiggies.net website.
>
> Paul McGavin had also offered space on his Zope server and has offered
> to help me with any python scripting that might be over my head.

I can also help with random Plone / Python scripting.

-jj

From marilyn at deliberate.com  Tue May  2 17:40:47 2006
From: marilyn at deliberate.com (Marilyn Davis)
Date: Tue, 02 May 2006 08:40:47 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] positive spirit of the group [was moving forward]
Message-ID: <20060502154051.607A31E4021@bag.python.org>

------- On Monday, May 1, 2006 jjinux at gmail.com wrote:

> On 4/27/06, Aahz  wrote:
>> On Thu, Apr 27, 2006, Dennis Reinhardt wrote:
>> > At 05:02 PM 4/27/2006, Aahz wrote:
>> >>
>> >> My bias is toward not changing things.
>> >
>> > My bias is towards finding changes which represents benefit and moving
>> > forward in that direction.
>>
>> You snipped enough context to radically change the meaning of what I
>> said.  I see no point in responding further.
> 
> This beating up on Aahz is not in line with the positive spirit of our
> group.  I normally wouldn't reply to such political things, but I'd
> just like to stick my neck out and say "thanks" to Aahz for all that
> he's done.  It's not like we're paying the guy!

Abolutely!  Thank you Aahz.  And thank you JJ for all you do.

But, there are several things here that I don't understand.  Why is it "sticking your neck out" to say "thank you"?  It's very important to say thank you and 'good work' to each other.  That's the payment volunteers get.

JJ, for example, there was this:	

On Thu, 20 Apr 2006, Shannon -jj Behrens wrote:

[some deleted]

>> > I'm not going to force you to learn HTML ;)
>> >
>> > However, a Web site is better than occassional email.  If we need to
>> > use a wiki, or if I need to write a script, that's fine, but I think a
>> > Web page is the way to go.
>> >
>> > That's just my $0.02.
>>
>> Since this is BayPiggies, I assume you're quite happy to write Python
>> ;)  In that case, give us the content in Python:
>>
>> meeting = {
>>     "date": "2006/06/13",
>>     "speaker": "Foo Bar",
>>     # ...
>> }
>>
>> Then, writing a script will be trivial! :-D  Generating the iCal feed
>> will also be easy!
>
> I'm not one to trust with typing tasks.  But I made this little script
> to parse Dennis' format into a python dictionary.  From there, your script
> should be even easier, I hope.
>
> ---
>
> #!/usr/bin/env python
> '''bap.py parses an email message to gather meeting schedule

And what followed was a script to get the data into a python dictionary, for you, for the group.

No 'thank you' for doing what you asked.  No 'good work', no suggestions for improving the code, nothing.  Was it a faux pas to send code?

Back to you and Aahz chastizing Dennis:  I don't get what he did wrong.  Here is the whole message, no text cut, well-indented for easy skipping:

  > ----- On Thursday, April 27, 2006 aahz at pythoncraft.com wrote:
  >
  >> On Wed, Apr 26, 2006, Marilyn Davis wrote:
  >>>
  >>> What is missing from the lists of tasks is "decision-making".  How has
  >>> that been happening so far?
  >>
  >> Decision?  What's that?  An appropriate description would be something
  >> along the lines of loosely organized chaos.
  >>
  >>> I also remember that the poll and survey are considered "non-binding".
  >>> What is binding?
  >>
  >> Getting enough people to agree.  My bias is toward not changing things.
  >>
  >>> I find it uncomfortable for a big volunteer group to be in a position
  >>> where they can't make a decision unless a specific 2 people are
  >>> involved, specially when both are too busy writing books and having
  >>> babies to participate.  Are we simply stuck?
  >>
  >> Not from my POV.  But I don't think that just because a few people are
  >> clamoring for change is a reason to let things move forward in a
  >> different direction.
  >>
  >> BTW, note that Danny is the primary contact for baypiggies.net and
  >> Deirdre still owns the domain.
  >>
  >>> If we find a way to unstick ourselves, I hope that we make some
  >>> schedule where we rotate the duties, that no one holds a position of
  >>> power and visibility for longer than a year or two.
  >>
  >> That's an idea, but it also implies a lot more organization than I think
  >> is likely to ever happen.
  >>
  >>> "Benevolent dictator" makes a lot of sense for a technical design or
  >>> a programming language, but not for a big volunteer group.  Volunteer
  >>> groups thrive on democracy.
  >>
  >> Not in my experience.  My experience is that volunteer groups thrive
  >> on -- guess what? -- volunteers.  And unless the volunteer base is large
  >> enough, consensus is usually more important than democracy.
  >> --
  >> Aahz (aahz at pythoncraft.com)                    http://www.pythoncraft.com/
  >>
  >> "Argue for your limitations, and sure enough they're yours."  --Richard Bach
  >> _______________________________________________
  >> Baypiggies mailing list
  >> Baypiggies at python.org
  >> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies

What did Dennis cut from Aahz' email that changed the context?  I don't see any 'beating up' on Aahz.

There were 3 emails about the name-change that took my messages into left-field directions that had nothing to do with what I said or intended.  I let them drop because I don't know what to say when someone asks me if I've stopped beating my wife.  At least Dennis has a wife to not beat. :^)

So there does seem to be some issue around here about getting along, being generous with each.

Why is this?

Marilyn


From jjinux at gmail.com  Tue May  2 23:49:19 2006
From: jjinux at gmail.com (Shannon -jj Behrens)
Date: Tue, 2 May 2006 14:49:19 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] positive spirit of the group [was moving forward]
In-Reply-To: <20060502154051.607A31E4021@bag.python.org>
References: <20060502154051.607A31E4021@bag.python.org>
Message-ID: <c41f67b90605021449n6be11122g40de33aa4a9e88ca@mail.gmail.com>

On 5/2/06, Marilyn Davis <marilyn at deliberate.com> wrote:
> ------- On Monday, May 1, 2006 jjinux at gmail.com wrote:
>
> > On 4/27/06, Aahz  wrote:
> >> On Thu, Apr 27, 2006, Dennis Reinhardt wrote:
> >> > At 05:02 PM 4/27/2006, Aahz wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >> My bias is toward not changing things.
> >> >
> >> > My bias is towards finding changes which represents benefit and moving
> >> > forward in that direction.
> >>
> >> You snipped enough context to radically change the meaning of what I
> >> said.  I see no point in responding further.
> >
> > This beating up on Aahz is not in line with the positive spirit of our
> > group.  I normally wouldn't reply to such political things, but I'd
> > just like to stick my neck out and say "thanks" to Aahz for all that
> > he's done.  It's not like we're paying the guy!
>
> Abolutely!  Thank you Aahz.  And thank you JJ for all you do.
>
> But, there are several things here that I don't understand.  Why is it "sticking your neck out" to say "thank you"?  It's very important to say thank you and 'good work' to each other.  That's the payment volunteers get.

Agreed.  I said I was "sticking my neck out" because it seems like
scape-goating Aahz has become popular in this group, and I don't like
that approach of improving a group.

(As an American, I enjoy the ability to talk smack about our country's
President, whoever it is, but I don't like the idea of beating up on
an unpaid volunteer ;)

> JJ, for example, there was this:
>
> On Thu, 20 Apr 2006, Shannon -jj Behrens wrote:
>
> [some deleted]
>
> >> > I'm not going to force you to learn HTML ;)
> >> >
> >> > However, a Web site is better than occassional email.  If we need to
> >> > use a wiki, or if I need to write a script, that's fine, but I think a
> >> > Web page is the way to go.
> >> >
> >> > That's just my $0.02.
> >>
> >> Since this is BayPiggies, I assume you're quite happy to write Python
> >> ;)  In that case, give us the content in Python:
> >>
> >> meeting = {
> >>     "date": "2006/06/13",
> >>     "speaker": "Foo Bar",
> >>     # ...
> >> }
> >>
> >> Then, writing a script will be trivial! :-D  Generating the iCal feed
> >> will also be easy!
> >
> > I'm not one to trust with typing tasks.  But I made this little script
> > to parse Dennis' format into a python dictionary.  From there, your script
> > should be even easier, I hope.
> >
> > ---
> >
> > #!/usr/bin/env python
> > '''bap.py parses an email message to gather meeting schedule
>
> And what followed was a script to get the data into a python dictionary, for you, for the group.
>
> No 'thank you' for doing what you asked.  No 'good work', no suggestions for improving the code, nothing.  Was it a faux pas to send code?

Thank you :)  My apologies that you felt slighted.

I didn't respond because I'm not in charge of the Web site, so it
wasn't my place to do anything with the code.

> Back to you and Aahz chastizing Dennis:  I don't get what he did wrong.  Here is the whole message, no text cut, well-indented for easy skipping:
>
>   > ----- On Thursday, April 27, 2006 aahz at pythoncraft.com wrote:
>   >
>   >> On Wed, Apr 26, 2006, Marilyn Davis wrote:
>   >>>
>   >>> What is missing from the lists of tasks is "decision-making".  How has
>   >>> that been happening so far?
>   >>
>   >> Decision?  What's that?  An appropriate description would be something
>   >> along the lines of loosely organized chaos.
>   >>
>   >>> I also remember that the poll and survey are considered "non-binding".
>   >>> What is binding?
>   >>
>   >> Getting enough people to agree.  My bias is toward not changing things.
>   >>
>   >>> I find it uncomfortable for a big volunteer group to be in a position
>   >>> where they can't make a decision unless a specific 2 people are
>   >>> involved, specially when both are too busy writing books and having
>   >>> babies to participate.  Are we simply stuck?
>   >>
>   >> Not from my POV.  But I don't think that just because a few people are
>   >> clamoring for change is a reason to let things move forward in a
>   >> different direction.
>   >>
>   >> BTW, note that Danny is the primary contact for baypiggies.net and
>   >> Deirdre still owns the domain.
>   >>
>   >>> If we find a way to unstick ourselves, I hope that we make some
>   >>> schedule where we rotate the duties, that no one holds a position of
>   >>> power and visibility for longer than a year or two.
>   >>
>   >> That's an idea, but it also implies a lot more organization than I think
>   >> is likely to ever happen.
>   >>
>   >>> "Benevolent dictator" makes a lot of sense for a technical design or
>   >>> a programming language, but not for a big volunteer group.  Volunteer
>   >>> groups thrive on democracy.
>   >>
>   >> Not in my experience.  My experience is that volunteer groups thrive
>   >> on -- guess what? -- volunteers.  And unless the volunteer base is large
>   >> enough, consensus is usually more important than democracy.
>   >> --
>   >> Aahz (aahz at pythoncraft.com)                    http://www.pythoncraft.com/
>   >>
>   >> "Argue for your limitations, and sure enough they're yours."  --Richard Bach
>   >> _______________________________________________
>   >> Baypiggies mailing list
>   >> Baypiggies at python.org
>   >> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies
>
> What did Dennis cut from Aahz' email that changed the context?  I don't see any 'beating up' on Aahz.

No insult to Dennis, who I think is a tremendously intelligent guy,
but Dennis started the email with:

Aahz> My bias is toward not changing things.
Dennis> My bias is towards finding changes which represents benefit and moving
forward in that direction.

The quote "My bias is toward not changing things" was indeed stripped
of its context and put into a new thread.  That seems like a Usenet
trick to me, but then of course, I'm still young enough to never have
used Usenet ;)

> There were 3 emails about the name-change that took my messages into left-field directions that had nothing to do with what I said or intended.  I let them drop because I don't know what to say when someone asks me if I've stopped beating my wife.  At least Dennis has a wife to not beat. :^)

The correct answer is "Mu", although personally I beat my wife on
every day that doesn't end in Y ;)

> So there does seem to be some issue around here about getting along, being generous with each.
>
> Why is this?

I don't know, but that's exactly what I'm unhappy with.  I'd like to
see more positive interactions instead of bickering.  Hence, I'd
positively like to thank you for the opportunity to articulate my
point ;)

Best Regards,
-jj

From DennisR at dair.com  Wed May  3 03:10:02 2006
From: DennisR at dair.com (Dennis Reinhardt)
Date: Tue, 02 May 2006 18:10:02 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] positive spirit of the group [was moving forward]
In-Reply-To: <c41f67b90605021449n6be11122g40de33aa4a9e88ca@mail.gmail.co
 m>
References: <20060502154051.607A31E4021@bag.python.org>
	<20060502154051.607A31E4021@bag.python.org>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20060502175504.00bf4c40@localhost>

At 02:49 PM 5/2/2006, Shannon -jj Behrens wrote:
>The quote "My bias is toward not changing things" was indeed stripped
>of its context and put into a new thread.  That seems like a Usenet
>trick to me, ...

I was attempting to summarize:

         If you are sending a reply to a message or a
         posting be sure you summarize the original at
         the top of the message, or include just enough
         text of the original to give a context.

as per RFC 1855 
(http://www.cybernothing.org/cno/docs/rfc1855.html#3).  Note the RFC uses 
the qualifier "just enough", strongly suggesting that superfluous material 
be trimmed.  I don't understand what necessary context was materially 
altered by my trimming.  Maybe I trimmed too much but I don't see where.

I had no transformational intent.  My intent was to respect people's time 
and follow Netiquette Guidelines, not Usenet trickery.  We all saw the 
original the first time around.

The change in thread subject was strongly indicated, imo.  Stephen had 
objected that his "meeting" thread had been hijacked.  Indeed, the subject 
line of the "meeting" thread referenced a meeting which was cancelled.  I 
did show the connection to the old subject line by putting [was ...] in the 
new thread title.  My intent was to match subject and content, not to trick 
anyone.



------------------------------------
| Dennis    | DennisR at dair.com     |
| Reinhardt | Powerful Anti-Spam   |
| http://dair.com/py/planmeet.html |
------------------------------------


From wescpy at gmail.com  Wed May  3 16:46:02 2006
From: wescpy at gmail.com (w chun)
Date: Wed, 3 May 2006 07:46:02 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] ANN: Advanced Python training, May 17-19, San Francisco
Message-ID: <78b3a9580605030746t4b10144he7c6ca55584d1778@mail.gmail.com>

FINAL REMINDER... we still have some seats left!

What:   Advanced Python Programming
When:   May 17-19, 2006
Where:  San Francisco (SFO/San Bruno), CA, USA

http://cyberwebconsulting.com (click on "Python Training")

This course, meant to follow our in-depth introduction class,
adds new tools to the Python programmer's toolkit. We explore
advanced topics such as: sockets, Internet clients, GUIs with
Tkinter, Web/CGI, databases/SQL, XML, Extending Python with C,
threads, etc. We provide lectures, code samples, and some exer-
cises to get attendees comfortable developing applications
with Python in these disciplines. We are proud to be the only
ones offering Python training in such advanced topics.

Come join us in beautiful Northern California for another
rigorous Python training event taught by software engineer,
"Core Python Programming" author, and technical instructor,
Wesley Chun.  This is an introduction to Python in various
areas of advanced topics geared towards those who have some
programming experience in Python (any implemention, plat-
form, or architecture).

This course will take place in San Bruno right near the
San Francisco International Airport at the:

Staybridge Suites
San Francisco Airport
1350 Huntington Ave
San Bruno, CA  94066 USA
+1-650-588-0770

LOCALS: it'll be at a hotel with easy 101/280/380, BART and
CalTrain access (San Bruno stations)

VISITORS: free shuttle directly from the San Francisco
airport, lots of free food and wireless

The cost is $1295 per attendee.  Discounts are available
for multiple registrations as well as teachers/students
and those with financial hardship.  For more information
and registration, go to the website above.

From marilyn at deliberate.com  Wed May  3 19:58:58 2006
From: marilyn at deliberate.com (Marilyn Davis)
Date: Wed, 03 May 2006 10:58:58 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] UCSC Intro to Python This Weekend
Message-ID: <20060503175901.E86501E400B@bag.python.org>

I'm teaching an Introduction to Python Short Course this weekend at UCSC Extension in Cupertino.

It's only $495 for 2 days of quick-paced, but low-pressure, lab-based learning in a nice facility.

This class is only for people who are proficient in some other language.  It will bring you up to speed on core concepts and give you skill and momentum for taking the language anywhere you want to go with it.

http://www.ucsc-extension.edu/ucsc/search/publicCourseSearchDetails.do?method=load&courseId=3007541

Hurry up!  Class starts Saturday at 9 am.

Marilyn Davis


From abazlen at pandora.com  Wed May  3 22:08:00 2006
From: abazlen at pandora.com (Amy Bazlen)
Date: Wed, 3 May 2006 13:08:00 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] Job Opening for Python & Java Developers at Well
	Funded Music Company
Message-ID: <20060503200801.84BA35C62@smtp.savagebeast.com>

Please email resume to abazlen at pandora.com.

 

Pandora (www.pandora.com <http://www.pandora.com/> ) is a well-funded,
consumer-oriented start-up that is revolutionizing the way music lovers
discover new music.  Pandora's music discovery service is designed to help
you find and enjoy music that you'll love. It's powered by the Music Genome
Project, the most comprehensive analysis of music ever undertaken.

 

Headquartered in Oakland near BART, Pandora's service is garnering frequent
press in print and on the Internet, helping to drive the aggressive growth
of our registered user base. Click here to read some recent articles about
Pandora:  <blocked::blocked::http://blog.pandora.com/press/>
http://blog.pandora.com/press/.

 
We're expanding our Development team. Below is a description of the type of
skillset we are seeking. As you can see, Python/Jython is used in our
development, as well as Java.  So, if the idea of using Python as well as
Java in your next role interests you, please send your resume!
 
We are staring down the 2006 hiring pipeline with 10+ Dev openings, so there
are multiple levels of seniority needed. 
 

Senior Software Engineer - Web Developer

 

Pandora Media is looking for a very knowledgeable Web Developer with
significant experience designing and building killer consumer web
applications . You should have a deep understanding of browser compatibility
issues, web view technologies and knowledge of SQL. You must be capable of
managing your time well and working efficiently without close supervision.
You place a high value on automated testing and have experience using test
frameworks such as JUnit to test your work. Excellent communication skills,
both written and verbal, are required.

 

As a member of our engineering team, you will participate in design
decisions and help create the company's core software assets. You will be
expected to come up to speed quickly on difficult problems, become a
significant contributor to a hard-working team, and to take pride in your
work. We have high expectations, and are looking for seasoned engineers with
experience in a wide range of areas. This is not an entry-level position.
The position is located in our Oakland, CA office.

 

Requirements

- Minimum 5 years experience developing consumer web applications.

- Experience developing object-oriented code in Java 

- In depth knowledge of web view technologies such as JSP, Velocity.

- Experience with MVC technologies 

- Expert level experience working with Apache, Jetty or Tomcat.

- Experience working with back end databases, using SQL. 

- Excellent written and verbal communication skills.

 

 

Plus Requirements

- Technically strong using any of the following: Hibernate, PostgreSQL,
XML-RPC, Python/Jython, Perl, Flash, OpenLaszlo, Ajax.

- Experience providing streaming media direct to consumers.

- BA/BS or better in Computer Science or a related field.

 

Core Technologies:. JSP, Velocity, Jetty, Java, Python/Jython, Apache,
distributed systems.

 

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From marilyn at deliberate.com  Thu May  4 05:02:01 2006
From: marilyn at deliberate.com (Marilyn Davis)
Date: Wed, 03 May 2006 20:02:01 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] positive spirit of the group [was moving forward]
Message-ID: <20060504030203.D17A41E4006@bag.python.org>


Thank you JJ,  What a nice email.

I hope I'm doing the right thing in trimming out the past.

> 

> > So there does seem to be some issue around here about getting along, being generous with each other.
> >
> > Why is this?
> 
> I don't know, but that's exactly what I'm unhappy with.  I'd like to
> see more positive interactions instead of bickering.  Hence, I'd
> positively like to thank you for the opportunity to articulate my
> point ;)

If we were face to face, I'd say as gently as possible, "It's the name."

Words, particularly the names we call ourselves, work a powerful
influence in the realm of unconscious persuasion.  The group's name
works us into further lack of consciousness.

Python people, if you get it, you might want to be sure to vote, or
change your vote:

http://jacq.istos.com.au/python/


If you don't think it's important to you, personally, to choose a
better self-image, more important than material considerations,
please, let's talk some more.

Marilyn


> 
> Best Regards,
> -jj
> 

-- 







From mac at Wireless.Com  Fri May  5 10:02:12 2006
From: mac at Wireless.Com (Mike Cheponis)
Date: Fri, 5 May 2006 01:02:12 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Baypiggies] Talk about Django on Google Video?
In-Reply-To: <55dc209b0604271004j277ea896n8c75d3134703d3e5@mail.google.com>
References: <BAY103-F19D6EE8EB95B054673FECA0BD0@phx.gbl>
	<Pine.NEB.4.64.0604270256120.29886@S.culver.net>
	<55dc209b0604271004j277ea896n8c75d3134703d3e5@mail.google.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.NEB.4.64.0605050100250.29886@S.culver.net>

On Thu, 27 Apr 2006, Alex Martelli wrote:

> On 4/27/06, Mike Cheponis <mac at wireless.com> wrote:
>> It was mentioned that the meeting last night would be videotaped and put on Google Video.

>> URL?


> I believe my worthy google Edu colleagues will take a few days to edit and prepare the video before putting it online -- I'll be glad to post a URL when I do find out about it.

> Alex

Super!

I look forward to viewing this Django talk.

Thanks!

From mrbmahoney at gmail.com  Fri May  5 17:02:22 2006
From: mrbmahoney at gmail.com (Brian Mahoney)
Date: Fri, 5 May 2006 08:02:22 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] Talk about Django on Google Video?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.NEB.4.64.0605050100250.29886@S.culver.net>
References: <BAY103-F19D6EE8EB95B054673FECA0BD0@phx.gbl>
	<Pine.NEB.4.64.0604270256120.29886@S.culver.net>
	<55dc209b0604271004j277ea896n8c75d3134703d3e5@mail.google.com>
	<Pine.NEB.4.64.0605050100250.29886@S.culver.net>
Message-ID: <5538c19b0605050802g5f504ad1l9be7038115a76eeb@mail.gmail.com>

On 5/5/06, Mike Cheponis <mac at wireless.com> wrote:
> On Thu, 27 Apr 2006, Alex Martelli wrote:
>
> > On 4/27/06, Mike Cheponis <mac at wireless.com> wrote:
> >> It was mentioned that the meeting last night would be videotaped and put on Google Video.
>
> >> URL?
>
>
> > I believe my worthy google Edu colleagues will take a few days to edit and prepare the video before putting it online -- I'll be glad to post a URL when I do find out about it.
>
> > Alex
>
> Super!
>
> I look forward to viewing this Django talk.
>
> Thanks!

Don't know when it went up, but I saw it Thursday night
django: Web Development for Perfectionists with Deadlines
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-70449010942275062

From DennisR at dair.com  Fri May  5 17:16:26 2006
From: DennisR at dair.com (Dennis Reinhardt)
Date: Fri, 05 May 2006 08:16:26 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] Talk about Django on Google Video?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.NEB.4.64.0605050100250.29886@S.culver.net>
References: <55dc209b0604271004j277ea896n8c75d3134703d3e5@mail.google.com>
	<BAY103-F19D6EE8EB95B054673FECA0BD0@phx.gbl>
	<Pine.NEB.4.64.0604270256120.29886@S.culver.net>
	<55dc209b0604271004j277ea896n8c75d3134703d3e5@mail.google.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20060505081441.00bf9290@localhost>

At 01:02 AM 5/5/2006, Mike Cheponis wrote:

> >> It was mentioned that the meeting last night would be videotaped and 
> put on Google Video.
>
> >> URL?
>
>Super!
>I look forward to viewing this Django talk.

Try

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-70449010942275062
------------------------------------
| Dennis    | DennisR at dair.com     |
| Reinhardt | Powerful Anti-Spam   |
| http://dair.com/py/planmeet.html |
------------------------------------


From larryt at winfirst.com  Fri May  5 05:18:16 2006
From: larryt at winfirst.com (larryt at winfirst.com)
Date: 05 May 2006 03:18:16 +0000
Subject: [Baypiggies] Talk about Django on Google Video?
In-Reply-To: <5538c19b0605050927s41163331j71eb31d294317780@mail.gmail.com>
References: <BAY103-F19D6EE8EB95B054673FECA0BD0@phx.gbl>
	<Pine.NEB.4.64.0604270256120.29886@S.culver.net>
	<55dc209b0604271004j277ea896n8c75d3134703d3e5@mail.google.com>
	<Pine.NEB.4.64.0605050100250.29886@S.culver.net>
	<5538c19b0605050802g5f504ad1l9be7038115a76eeb@mail.gmail.com>
	<x7odydmb7r.fsf@winfirst.com>
	<5538c19b0605050927s41163331j71eb31d294317780@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <x7fyjpma6f.fsf@winfirst.com>


"Brian Mahoney" <mrbmahoney at gmail.com> writes:
>
> > http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-70449010942275062

Is this available in an open format or has Flash been "donated", a la
Java?  Maybe I missed something major, because I'm seeing lots of
stuff in flash lately, even from folks who must have swallowed hard
before using proprietary technology to this degree.

-larry




From bob at redivi.com  Fri May  5 20:23:17 2006
From: bob at redivi.com (Bob Ippolito)
Date: Fri, 5 May 2006 11:23:17 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] Talk about Django on Google Video?
In-Reply-To: <x7fyjpma6f.fsf@winfirst.com>
References: <BAY103-F19D6EE8EB95B054673FECA0BD0@phx.gbl>
	<Pine.NEB.4.64.0604270256120.29886@S.culver.net>
	<55dc209b0604271004j277ea896n8c75d3134703d3e5@mail.google.com>
	<Pine.NEB.4.64.0605050100250.29886@S.culver.net>
	<5538c19b0605050802g5f504ad1l9be7038115a76eeb@mail.gmail.com>
	<x7odydmb7r.fsf@winfirst.com>
	<5538c19b0605050927s41163331j71eb31d294317780@mail.gmail.com>
	<x7fyjpma6f.fsf@winfirst.com>
Message-ID: <B065777F-E51C-408F-A629-AFDF4B43BF47@redivi.com>


On May 4, 2006, at 8:18 PM, larryt at winfirst.com wrote:

>
> "Brian Mahoney" <mrbmahoney at gmail.com> writes:
>>
>>> http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-70449010942275062
>
> Is this available in an open format or has Flash been "donated", a la
> Java?  Maybe I missed something major, because I'm seeing lots of
> stuff in flash lately, even from folks who must have swallowed hard
> before using proprietary technology to this degree.

Flash is ubiquitous and works decently in-browser.
Nearly all of the Flash video out there is just a container for a  
known derivative of H.263, possibly even encoded with ffmpeg.
FLV can be played and transcoded without Macromedia's player, since  
it's mostly just H.263 (except when it's On2 VP6, but most of it isn't).
Google Video will let you download it in DivX anyway.

-bob


From andywiggin at gmail.com  Fri May  5 22:39:33 2006
From: andywiggin at gmail.com (Andy Wiggin)
Date: Fri, 5 May 2006 13:39:33 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] Talk about Django on Google Video?
In-Reply-To: <B065777F-E51C-408F-A629-AFDF4B43BF47@redivi.com>
References: <BAY103-F19D6EE8EB95B054673FECA0BD0@phx.gbl>
	<Pine.NEB.4.64.0604270256120.29886@S.culver.net>
	<55dc209b0604271004j277ea896n8c75d3134703d3e5@mail.google.com>
	<Pine.NEB.4.64.0605050100250.29886@S.culver.net>
	<5538c19b0605050802g5f504ad1l9be7038115a76eeb@mail.gmail.com>
	<x7odydmb7r.fsf@winfirst.com>
	<5538c19b0605050927s41163331j71eb31d294317780@mail.gmail.com>
	<x7fyjpma6f.fsf@winfirst.com>
	<B065777F-E51C-408F-A629-AFDF4B43BF47@redivi.com>
Message-ID: <74e7428a0605051339t1a0657a4l6611ac01e9c3eebe@mail.gmail.com>

On 5/5/06, Bob Ippolito <bob at redivi.com> wrote:
>
> Flash is ubiquitous and works decently in-browser.

Bob,
it's not really ubiquitous. At least, everytime firefox running on my
powerpc linux box looks for a plugin, it's not available. I agree with
the earlier post, that flash is closed, controlled and limited format.
But maybe that's due to my powerpc linux box perspective.

Regards,
Andy

From bob at redivi.com  Fri May  5 22:58:31 2006
From: bob at redivi.com (Bob Ippolito)
Date: Fri, 5 May 2006 13:58:31 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] Talk about Django on Google Video?
In-Reply-To: <74e7428a0605051339t1a0657a4l6611ac01e9c3eebe@mail.gmail.com>
References: <BAY103-F19D6EE8EB95B054673FECA0BD0@phx.gbl>
	<Pine.NEB.4.64.0604270256120.29886@S.culver.net>
	<55dc209b0604271004j277ea896n8c75d3134703d3e5@mail.google.com>
	<Pine.NEB.4.64.0605050100250.29886@S.culver.net>
	<5538c19b0605050802g5f504ad1l9be7038115a76eeb@mail.gmail.com>
	<x7odydmb7r.fsf@winfirst.com>
	<5538c19b0605050927s41163331j71eb31d294317780@mail.gmail.com>
	<x7fyjpma6f.fsf@winfirst.com>
	<B065777F-E51C-408F-A629-AFDF4B43BF47@redivi.com>
	<74e7428a0605051339t1a0657a4l6611ac01e9c3eebe@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <68F378E7-2980-4D62-8BA0-9D21D753AF72@redivi.com>


On May 5, 2006, at 1:39 PM, Andy Wiggin wrote:

> On 5/5/06, Bob Ippolito <bob at redivi.com> wrote:
>>
>> Flash is ubiquitous and works decently in-browser.
>
> Bob,
> it's not really ubiquitous. At least, everytime firefox running on my
> powerpc linux box looks for a plugin, it's not available. I agree with
> the earlier post, that flash is closed, controlled and limited format.
> But maybe that's due to my powerpc linux box perspective.

It is absolutely the PowerPC linux perspective. The Flash player  
ships with the other (only) popular PPC OS, and it can be made to  
work on just about any of the x86 platforms (if one tries hard  
enough, anyway).

The Flash format isn't entirely closed, and I don't even know what  
"limited" is supposed to mean. As for openness, there are only two  
proprietary codecs in Flash (Adobe licenses these from third  
parties): On2 VP6 (video) and the Nellymoser audio (voice). All other  
aspects of the Flash file formats are open -- either by reverse  
engineering or published specifications (though the license attached  
to that spec doesn't please everyone, it disallows creating a player  
using that knowledge).

However, all of this is totally irrelevant to the initial question  
because Google Video also provides DivX encoded video, and I'm sure  
that the H.263 FLV files that google video produces are playable or  
at least can be transcoded using an entirely open source stack  
(though not conveniently in-browser AFAIK).

-bob


From DennisR at dair.com  Sat May  6 00:24:55 2006
From: DennisR at dair.com (Dennis Reinhardt)
Date: Fri, 05 May 2006 15:24:55 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies]  domain name transfer
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20060505152045.00c289f8@localhost>

The BayPiggies domain name has now been transferred to me.  Thanks for 
doing this Deirdre!

I am not expecting glitching of DNS records and I have not changed anything 
... but a problem can still occur so I wanted to let you know in advance in 
case anything happens.

------------------------------------
| Dennis    | DennisR at dair.com     |
| Reinhardt | Powerful Anti-Spam   |
| http://dair.com/py/planmeet.html |
------------------------------------


From dyoo at hkn.eecs.berkeley.edu  Sat May  6 00:53:40 2006
From: dyoo at hkn.eecs.berkeley.edu (Danny Yoo)
Date: Fri, 5 May 2006 15:53:40 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Baypiggies] domain name transfer
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20060505152045.00c289f8@localhost>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20060505152045.00c289f8@localhost>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0605051552310.19538@hkn.eecs.berkeley.edu>



On Fri, 5 May 2006, Dennis Reinhardt wrote:

> The BayPiggies domain name has now been transferred to me.  Thanks for 
> doing this Deirdre!
>
> I am not expecting glitching of DNS records and I have not changed 
> anything ... but a problem can still occur so I wanted to let you know 
> in advance in case anything happens.

Hi Dennis,

Excellent!  Thanks for your help on this; I feel reasssured that things 
are moving better now.

From ken at seehart.com  Sun May  7 20:38:10 2006
From: ken at seehart.com (Ken Seehart)
Date: Sun, 07 May 2006 11:38:10 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] Mini languages
Message-ID: <445E3E92.7050003@seehart.com>

I want to implement a simple language translator (a superset of C++), 
but I haven't done anything of this kind since college (a couple decades 
ago).  I would like to use python tools as much as possible.

NICL code -> [C++ preprocessor (gcc)] -> [NICL translator] -> [C++ 
compiler (gcc)] -> object code

The translator needs to be able to parse special non-c++ syntax to 
generate c++, and leave other code intact.

More documentation on my project here:
  
http://www.seehart.com/neuralintegrator.com/documentation/ni_book/defining_cell_types.st

I could almost get by with just a python script using regular 
expressions (my grammar is simple enough), but I need to know a certain 
amount of contextual information. E.g., if I am parsing "cellclass 
mycell { ... }", the contents between the braces must be processed 
accordingly.  This means I have to know when I reach the closing brace 
(which I can't do with regular expressions).  However, I'm sure I could 
do a prototype this way, using the assumption that the a closing brace 
on a class matches "^};", but that would be just plain sloppy :-)

So I think one way or another I'm stuck with implementing an LALR parser.

I'm wondering if there is anyone in this community with experience doing 
this kind of thing.

- Ken Seehart

-------------- next part --------------
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From DennisR at dair.com  Sun May  7 21:15:36 2006
From: DennisR at dair.com (Dennis Reinhardt)
Date: Sun, 07 May 2006 12:15:36 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] Mini languages
In-Reply-To: <445E3E92.7050003@seehart.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20060507115513.00bfcdf0@localhost>

At 11:38 AM 5/7/2006, Ken Seehart wrote:
>This means I have to know when I reach the closing brace (which I can't do 
>with regular expressions).  However, I'm sure I could do a prototype this 
>way, using the assumption that the a closing brace on a class matches 
>"^};", but that would be just plain sloppy :-)

I don't know your syntax but it sounds like you (1) know when to expect 
braces.  I am further guessing that you have (2) a single level of 
braces.  The routine below would work under these assumptions.  I have 
implemented a self-compiler prior to working with Python which met those 
assumptions.  If the assumptions could not be met, I would be inclined to 
use LALR but I have not direct experience.  Rather, I designed the syntax 
to not require LALR.  I have had some success in parsing under Python using 
RE with the following code:

import sre, string
#separate html into 5 components based on regex  case insensitive, dotall.
#  Input regex should use (?:...) grouping, if any
#  regex may not be compiled since we compile it here
def regex_sep(str, regex1, regex2):
     left = lm = mid = rm = right = ""  # return matched regex
     flags = "(?is)"
     re1 = sre.compile("(%s)%s" % (regex1, flags))
     match1 = re1.search(str)
     if match1:
         lm = match1.group(1)
         left, rest = split2(str, lm)
         re2 = sre.compile("(%s)%s" % (regex2, flags))
         match2 = re2.search(rest)
         if match2:
             rm = match2.group(1)
             mid, right = split2(rest, rm)
         else:
             mid = rest
     else:
         left = str
     return left, lm, mid, rm, right

def split2(str, pattern):
     left = str
     right = ""
     try:
         splitlen = len(string.split(str, pattern, 1))
         if splitlen == 2:
             left, right = string.split(str, pattern, 1)
     except:
         pass
     return (left, right)


The call

         x1,x2,x3,x4,x5 = regex_sep(input_str, "{", "}")

would separate input_str into 5 components

         x1 = text prior to first regex match
            = input_str if no match and others ""
         x2 = text which matched the first regex (trivially "{" here)
         x3 = text between matched regex
         x4 = text which matched second regex (trivially "}" here)
         x5 = text following second regex match

Regards, Dennis


----------------------------------
| Dennis    | DennisR at dair.com   |
| Reinhardt | Powerful Anti-Spam |
----------------------------------


From allison at shasta.stanford.edu  Sun May  7 21:11:56 2006
From: allison at shasta.stanford.edu (Dennis Allison)
Date: Sun, 7 May 2006 12:11:56 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Baypiggies] Mini languages
In-Reply-To: <445E3E92.7050003@seehart.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0605071201180.32283-100000@shasta.stanford.edu>


Ken -- 

"a simple language translator" is not comensurate with "a superset of C++"

Some might say it's an oxymoron.

It looks like what you are wanting to do is to build a little lanaague 
that you parse and output C++ object code.  I do that sort of thing all 
the time; and I am sure I am not alone.   There are a bunch of different 
parsing tools available in python, but if the language really is simple, 
I'd go for a recursive descent parser written in python; if it is 
expression heavy, you might want to do expressions by some bottom-up
scheme.  Trees make a nice intermediate form.  The big question is what 
you want to do in terms of optimization.  With a C++ target, I suppose 
that you leave that to gcc.

You might want to reconsider your approach and use python as the language 
and C++ extensions to do the heaavy lifting, if necessary.  You could, of 
course, make custom extensions for specific problems as an optimization.




On Sun, 7 May 2006, Ken Seehart wrote:

> I want to implement a simple language translator (a superset of C++), 
> but I haven't done anything of this kind since college (a couple decades 
> ago).  I would like to use python tools as much as possible.
> 
> NICL code -> [C++ preprocessor (gcc)] -> [NICL translator] -> [C++ 
> compiler (gcc)] -> object code
> 
> The translator needs to be able to parse special non-c++ syntax to 
> generate c++, and leave other code intact.
> 
> More documentation on my project here:
>   
> http://www.seehart.com/neuralintegrator.com/documentation/ni_book/defining_cell_types.st
> 
> I could almost get by with just a python script using regular 
> expressions (my grammar is simple enough), but I need to know a certain 
> amount of contextual information. E.g., if I am parsing "cellclass 
> mycell { ... }", the contents between the braces must be processed 
> accordingly.  This means I have to know when I reach the closing brace 
> (which I can't do with regular expressions).  However, I'm sure I could 
> do a prototype this way, using the assumption that the a closing brace 
> on a class matches "^};", but that would be just plain sloppy :-)
> 
> So I think one way or another I'm stuck with implementing an LALR parser.
> 
> I'm wondering if there is anyone in this community with experience doing 
> this kind of thing.
> 
> - Ken Seehart
> 
> 

-- 


From allison at shasta.stanford.edu  Sun May  7 21:29:11 2006
From: allison at shasta.stanford.edu (Dennis Allison)
Date: Sun, 7 May 2006 12:29:11 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Baypiggies] Mini languages
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20060507115513.00bfcdf0@localhost>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0605071227270.32283-100000@shasta.stanford.edu>



IMHO using regular expressions to parse anything complicated is a bad 
idea.  Splitting off the lexical processing (always ugly) from the 
semantics (can be clean) is always a win.


On Sun, 7 May 2006, Dennis Reinhardt wrote:

> At 11:38 AM 5/7/2006, Ken Seehart wrote:
> >This means I have to know when I reach the closing brace (which I can't do 
> >with regular expressions).  However, I'm sure I could do a prototype this 
> >way, using the assumption that the a closing brace on a class matches 
> >"^};", but that would be just plain sloppy :-)
> 
> I don't know your syntax but it sounds like you (1) know when to expect 
> braces.  I am further guessing that you have (2) a single level of 
> braces.  The routine below would work under these assumptions.  I have 
> implemented a self-compiler prior to working with Python which met those 
> assumptions.  If the assumptions could not be met, I would be inclined to 
> use LALR but I have not direct experience.  Rather, I designed the syntax 
> to not require LALR.  I have had some success in parsing under Python using 
> RE with the following code:
> 
> import sre, string
> #separate html into 5 components based on regex  case insensitive, dotall.
> #  Input regex should use (?:...) grouping, if any
> #  regex may not be compiled since we compile it here
> def regex_sep(str, regex1, regex2):
>      left = lm = mid = rm = right = ""  # return matched regex
>      flags = "(?is)"
>      re1 = sre.compile("(%s)%s" % (regex1, flags))
>      match1 = re1.search(str)
>      if match1:
>          lm = match1.group(1)
>          left, rest = split2(str, lm)
>          re2 = sre.compile("(%s)%s" % (regex2, flags))
>          match2 = re2.search(rest)
>          if match2:
>              rm = match2.group(1)
>              mid, right = split2(rest, rm)
>          else:
>              mid = rest
>      else:
>          left = str
>      return left, lm, mid, rm, right
> 
> def split2(str, pattern):
>      left = str
>      right = ""
>      try:
>          splitlen = len(string.split(str, pattern, 1))
>          if splitlen == 2:
>              left, right = string.split(str, pattern, 1)
>      except:
>          pass
>      return (left, right)
> 
> 
> The call
> 
>          x1,x2,x3,x4,x5 = regex_sep(input_str, "{", "}")
> 
> would separate input_str into 5 components
> 
>          x1 = text prior to first regex match
>             = input_str if no match and others ""
>          x2 = text which matched the first regex (trivially "{" here)
>          x3 = text between matched regex
>          x4 = text which matched second regex (trivially "}" here)
>          x5 = text following second regex match
> 
> Regards, Dennis
> 
> 
> ----------------------------------
> | Dennis    | DennisR at dair.com   |
> | Reinhardt | Powerful Anti-Spam |
> ----------------------------------
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Baypiggies mailing list
> Baypiggies at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies
> 

-- 


From ken at seehart.com  Sun May  7 22:48:06 2006
From: ken at seehart.com (Ken Seehart)
Date: Sun, 07 May 2006 13:48:06 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] Mini languages
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0605071201180.32283-100000@shasta.stanford.edu>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0605071201180.32283-100000@shasta.stanford.edu>
Message-ID: <445E5D06.7090402@seehart.com>

Dennis Allison wrote:

>Ken -- 
>
>"a simple language translator" is not comensurate with "a superset of C++"
>  
>
>Some might say it's an oxymoron.
>  
>
What I mean is that my language adds just a few elements to C++, and 
these elements are so simple that
they can be easily parsed with regular expressions.

/... c++ code .../
cellclass mycell {
    /(stuff that I need to parse)/
   cfn /(more stuff that I need to parse)/   {
      /... c++ code .../
   }
  /.../
}
/... more c++ code .../
/.../

The "stuff that I need to parse" can be done with trivially easy regular 
expressions (no recursion).
The C++ code will be left unmodified (and I do not need to extract any 
information from the C++ code).

So, while my language is technically a superset of C++, I do not intend 
to implement a C++ parser :-)
For details, see the link...
  
http://www.seehart.com/neuralintegrator.com/documentation/ni_book/defining_cell_types.st

>It looks like what you are wanting to do is to build a little lanaague 
>that you parse and output C++ object code.  I do that sort of thing all 
>the time; and I am sure I am not alone.   There are a bunch of different 
>parsing tools available in python, but if the language really is simple, 
>I'd go for a recursive descent parser written in python; if it is 
>expression heavy, you might want to do expressions by some bottom-up
>scheme.  Trees make a nice intermediate form.  The big question is what 
>you want to do in terms of optimization.  With a C++ target, I suppose 
>that you leave that to gcc.
>  
>
Well, not exactly...  The input is C++ with a little extra non-c++ 
syntax added, and the output is pure
C++.

>You might want to reconsider your approach and use python as the language 
>and C++ extensions to do the heaavy lifting, if necessary.  You could, of 
>course, make custom extensions for specific problems as an optimization.
>  
>
Thanks, already doing that at a higher level of the program.  All user 
interface and high-level coding
is in python.

I've decided that a speciallized language is worth having to facilitate 
rapid development of a large
number special functions that plug into my application in a specific 
way.  These are not python
extention functions, but are called directly by a core engine.  The 
function call protocol must optimized
for speed, since millions of these special functions will be executed 
consecutively.

>On Sun, 7 May 2006, Ken Seehart wrote:
>  
>
>>I want to implement a simple language translator (a superset of C++), 
>>but I haven't done anything of this kind since college (a couple decades 
>>ago).  I would like to use python tools as much as possible.
>>
>>NICL code -> [C++ preprocessor (gcc)] -> [NICL translator] -> [C++ 
>>compiler (gcc)] -> object code
>>
>>The translator needs to be able to parse special non-c++ syntax to 
>>generate c++, and leave other code intact.
>>
>>More documentation on my project here:
>>  
>>http://www.seehart.com/neuralintegrator.com/documentation/ni_book/defining_cell_types.st
>>
>>I could almost get by with just a python script using regular 
>>expressions (my grammar is simple enough), but I need to know a certain 
>>amount of contextual information. E.g., if I am parsing "cellclass 
>>mycell { ... }", the contents between the braces must be processed 
>>accordingly.  This means I have to know when I reach the closing brace 
>>(which I can't do with regular expressions).  However, I'm sure I could 
>>do a prototype this way, using the assumption that the a closing brace 
>>on a class matches "^};", but that would be just plain sloppy :-)
>>
>>So I think one way or another I'm stuck with implementing an LALR parser.
>>
>>I'm wondering if there is anyone in this community with experience doing 
>>this kind of thing.
>>
>>- Ken Seehart
>>
>>
>>    
>>
>
>  
>

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From ken at seehart.com  Mon May  8 01:10:06 2006
From: ken at seehart.com (Ken Seehart)
Date: Sun, 07 May 2006 16:10:06 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] Mini languages
In-Reply-To: <445E3E92.7050003@seehart.com>
References: <445E3E92.7050003@seehart.com>
Message-ID: <445E7E4E.6060800@seehart.com>

Never mind, this is really trivial.  Any C++ code that is outside my 
"cellclass" block is passed on unmodified. The only recursion I have to 
deal with in my grammar is a C++ function body.  And since I don't 
actually need to process the function body, I just need to recursively 
scan for a pair of matching braces (not rocket science).  Everything 
else is regular expressions.  I definitely don't need an LALR parser for 
this :-)
 
So I don't have any further questions.

Thanks Dennis and Dennis for your comments.

- Ken

Ken Seehart wrote:

> I want to implement a simple language translator (a superset of C++), 
> but I haven't done anything of this kind since college (a couple 
> decades ago).  I would like to use python tools as much as possible.
>
> NICL code -> [C++ preprocessor (gcc)] -> [NICL translator] -> [C++ 
> compiler (gcc)] -> object code
>
> The translator needs to be able to parse special non-c++ syntax to 
> generate c++, and leave other code intact.
>
> More documentation on my project here:
>   
> http://www.seehart.com/neuralintegrator.com/documentation/ni_book/defining_cell_types.st
>
> I could almost get by with just a python script using regular 
> expressions (my grammar is simple enough), but I need to know a 
> certain amount of contextual information. E.g., if I am parsing 
> "cellclass mycell { ... }", the contents between the braces must be 
> processed accordingly.  This means I have to know when I reach the 
> closing brace (which I can't do with regular expressions).  However, 
> I'm sure I could do a prototype this way, using the assumption that 
> the a closing brace on a class matches "^};", but that would be just 
> plain sloppy :-)
>
> So I think one way or another I'm stuck with implementing an LALR parser.
>
> I'm wondering if there is anyone in this community with experience 
> doing this kind of thing.
>
> - Ken Seehart
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>_______________________________________________
>Baypiggies mailing list
>Baypiggies at python.org
>http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies
>  
>

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From jjinux at gmail.com  Tue May  9 01:33:07 2006
From: jjinux at gmail.com (Shannon -jj Behrens)
Date: Mon, 8 May 2006 16:33:07 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] Mini languages
In-Reply-To: <445E7E4E.6060800@seehart.com>
References: <445E3E92.7050003@seehart.com> <445E7E4E.6060800@seehart.com>
Message-ID: <c41f67b90605081633p617607f9s24cde54875467429@mail.gmail.com>

On 5/7/06, Ken Seehart <ken at seehart.com> wrote:
>  Never mind, this is really trivial.  Any C++ code that is outside my
> "cellclass" block is passed on unmodified. The only recursion I have to deal
> with in my grammar is a C++ function body.  And since I don't actually need
> to process the function body, I just need to recursively scan for a pair of
> matching braces (not rocket science).  Everything else is regular
> expressions.  I definitely don't need an LALR parser for this :-)
>
>  So I don't have any further questions.
>
>  Thanks Dennis and Dennis for your comments.
>
>  - Ken
>
>  Ken Seehart wrote:
>
>  I want to implement a simple language translator (a superset of C++), but I
> haven't done anything of this kind since college (a couple decades ago).  I
> would like to use python tools as much as possible.
>
>  NICL code -> [C++ preprocessor (gcc)] -> [NICL translator] -> [C++ compiler
> (gcc)] -> object code
>
>  The translator needs to be able to parse special non-c++ syntax to generate
> c++, and leave other code intact.
>
>  More documentation on my project here:
>
> http://www.seehart.com/neuralintegrator.com/documentation/ni_book/defining_cell_types.st
>
>  I could almost get by with just a python script using regular expressions
> (my grammar is simple enough), but I need to know a certain amount of
> contextual information. E.g., if I am parsing "cellclass mycell { ... }",
> the contents between the braces must be processed accordingly.  This means I
> have to know when I reach the closing brace (which I can't do with regular
> expressions).  However, I'm sure I could do a prototype this way, using the
> assumption that the a closing brace on a class matches "^};", but that would
> be just plain sloppy :-)
>
>  So I think one way or another I'm stuck with implementing an LALR parser.
>
>  I'm wondering if there is anyone in this community with experience doing
> this kind of thing.
>
>  - Ken Seehart

I once interviewed at a company that had implemented a mini-language
on top of C++ using templates and operator overloading.  Apparently,
they had even overloaded the comma operator.

/me shudders

-jj

From mrbmahoney at gmail.com  Mon May  8 23:29:42 2006
From: mrbmahoney at gmail.com (Brian Mahoney)
Date: Mon, 8 May 2006 14:29:42 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] Dinner Announcement - Thursday, May 11, 6 pm
Message-ID: <5538c19b0605081429j30bbb6f5mf5aa225dee0c7a6e@mail.gmail.com>

For Thursday, May 11, I can coordinate a pre-meeting
dinner in Mountain View, before the BayPIGgies meeting
at Google ( Meeting details http://baypiggies.net/ )

Note: This dinner is separate from the pizza and refreshments
activity at the Google meeting site, which had a deadline last week
http://article.gmane.org/gmane.comp.python.org.baypiggies/1019

Restaurant RVSPs may be sent to my email until
Thursday afternoon (earlier is better). We eat family-style,
there are vegetarian and non-vegetarian dishes.  Cost around
$10 per person, including tax and tip. Bring cash, please.

Start dinner at 6pm and I will keep things moving so that we
finish and get everyone headed towards Google to
complete sign-in before the 7:30 meeting start.
This worked out well and unhurried for the last Google
meeting.

The restaurant is Cafe Yulong in downtown Mountain View
(650) 960-1677
743 W Dana Street, 1/2 block from Castro where
Books, Inc is on the corner.
Parking lots all around, but downtown Mountain View
parking is still difficult.

It is a slightly out of the ordinary Chinese
restaurant.  This link has a downtown map and
additional information.
http://www.mountainviewca.net/restaurants/cafeyulong.html

I've made reservations under "Python" for 6pm
Thursday.

If you wish to join us for dinner please e-mail me
by 3 pm Thursday (earlier is better) so I may confirm
the headcount.

From donnamsnow at gmail.com  Tue May  9 22:05:13 2006
From: donnamsnow at gmail.com (Donna M. Snow)
Date: Tue, 09 May 2006 13:05:13 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] Snacks at Google
Message-ID: <4460F5F9.4060506@gmail.com>

Hi All,

I've received about a half-a-dozen RSVP's for Thursday's meeting. With 
that in mind I will bring enough pizza, salad, snacks for approx 10 - 15 
people for this meeting. If you aren't eating with Brian (at the 
restaurant) or at home, or on the way to the meeting.. then let me know 
that you want something and bring a couple dollars with you. I'll feed 
the rsvp type people first and whatever is left is first come to me 
(with money) first served. If you are having a snack at Google please 
arrive at a decent time (taking into account sign-in) so you can grab 
your food.

Thank You :-)

(as usual please respond to me offlist)

Donna M. Snow

From nnorwitz at gmail.com  Tue May  9 23:21:38 2006
From: nnorwitz at gmail.com (Neal Norwitz)
Date: Tue, 9 May 2006 14:21:38 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] List of attendees for Thursday meeting
Message-ID: <ee2a432c0605091421t3faf9d45u9f6aacd62160c2ab@mail.gmail.com>

Sorry, I forgot to email this list sooner.  Could someone collect a
list of names of likely attendees for Thursday's meeting?  I can try
to have badges made up ahead of time.  That should help speed the
login process.  It would be great if I can get the list sometime
tomorrow.

n

From DennisR at dair.com  Wed May 10 00:12:13 2006
From: DennisR at dair.com (Dennis Reinhardt)
Date: Tue, 09 May 2006 15:12:13 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] List of attendees for Thursday meeting
In-Reply-To: <ee2a432c0605091421t3faf9d45u9f6aacd62160c2ab@mail.gmail.co
 m>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20060509150509.00bf39e8@localhost>

At 02:21 PM 5/9/2006, Neal Norwitz wrote:
>Sorry, I forgot to email this list sooner.  Could someone collect a
>list of names of likely attendees for Thursday's meeting?  I can try
>to have badges made up ahead of time.  That should help speed the
>login process.  It would be great if I can get the list sometime
>tomorrow.

Neal,

I am happy to coordinate this.  I had mouth open when this was discussed so 
it is only fair that I do the work....

Please email me privately: DennisR at dair.com with subject line:

         Google Badge

In order to get this to Neal "sometime tomorrow", I need to cutoff at 4:00 
p.m.  The following has been printed on Google visitor badge.  So, let's 
collect this info and if it gets thrown away or not used, it gets thrown away:

         Name
         Company
         City

Regards, Dennis

------------------------------------
| Dennis    | DennisR at dair.com     |
| Reinhardt | Powerful Anti-Spam   |
| http://dair.com/py/planmeet.html |
------------------------------------


From spmcinerney at hotmail.com  Wed May 10 00:20:11 2006
From: spmcinerney at hotmail.com (Stephen McInerney)
Date: Tue, 09 May 2006 15:20:11 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] List of attendees for Thursday meeting/ RSVP system
In-Reply-To: <ee2a432c0605091421t3faf9d45u9f6aacd62160c2ab@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <BAY103-F34986135548DD79FB35086A0A90@phx.gbl>


Seems like we could use a RSVP system for badges+dinner+snacks.
Kill three birds in one stone, and keep all the traffic offlist.

Stephen



From DennisR at dair.com  Wed May 10 00:19:09 2006
From: DennisR at dair.com (Dennis Reinhardt)
Date: Tue, 09 May 2006 15:19:09 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] List of attendees for Thursday meeting
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20060509150509.00bf39e8@localhost>
References: <ee2a432c0605091421t3faf9d45u9f6aacd62160c2ab@mail.gmail.co m>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20060509151824.00bfbe78@localhost>

At 03:12 PM 5/9/2006, Dennis Reinhardt wrote:
>At 02:21 PM 5/9/2006, Neal Norwitz wrote:
> >Sorry, I forgot to email this list sooner.  Could someone collect a
> >list of names of likely attendees for Thursday's meeting?  I can try
> >to have badges made up ahead of time.  That should help speed the
> >login process.  It would be great if I can get the list sometime
> >tomorrow.
>
>Neal,
>
>I am happy to coordinate this.  I had mouth open when this was discussed so
>it is only fair that I do the work....
>
>Please email me privately: DennisR at dair.com with subject line:
>
>          Google Badge
>
>In order to get this to Neal "sometime tomorrow", I need to cutoff at 4:00
>p.m.  The following has been printed on Google visitor badge.  So, let's
>collect this info and if it gets thrown away or not used, it gets thrown away:
>
>          Name
>          Company
>          City

Clarify: 4:00 p.m. on Wed. 5/10. Sorry.

------------------------------------
| Dennis    | DennisR at dair.com     |
| Reinhardt | Powerful Anti-Spam   |
| http://dair.com/py/planmeet.html |
------------------------------------


From aahz at pythoncraft.com  Wed May 10 02:16:34 2006
From: aahz at pythoncraft.com (Aahz)
Date: Tue, 9 May 2006 17:16:34 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] BayPIGgies: May 11, 7:30pm (Google)
Message-ID: <20060510001634.GA15499@panix.com>

The next meeting of BayPIGgies will be Thurs, May 11 at 7:30pm at Google.

Note: Dennis Reinhardt is coordinating Google badges.  Please send e-mail
to DennisR at dair.com by 4pm Weds 5/10 to get an advance badge.


Dennis Reinhardt will present a short tutorial of using ctypes with the
Windows API, followed by Stephen McInerney discussing the results of the
BayPIGgies member survey.


BayPIGgies meetings alternate between IronPort (San Bruno, California)
and Google (Mountain View, California).  For more information and
directions, see http://baypiggies.net/


Before the meeting, we sometimes meet at 6pm for dinner.  Discussion of
dinner plans is handled on the BayPIGgies mailing list.  

Advance notice:  We can use a speaker for June.  Please e-mail
baypiggies at python.org if you want to suggest an agenda (or volunteer to
give a presentation).
-- 
Aahz (aahz at pythoncraft.com)           <*>         http://www.pythoncraft.com/

"Argue for your limitations, and sure enough they're yours."  --Richard Bach

From nnorwitz at gmail.com  Wed May 10 02:56:09 2006
From: nnorwitz at gmail.com (Neal Norwitz)
Date: Tue, 9 May 2006 17:56:09 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] BayPIGgies: May 11, 7:30pm (Google)
In-Reply-To: <20060510001634.GA15499@panix.com>
References: <20060510001634.GA15499@panix.com>
Message-ID: <ee2a432c0605091756p4843b57gf9f7105cc09d6f6e@mail.gmail.com>

I forgot to mention we will be in Bldg 40 in Room Seville.  We will
still meet in Bldg 43 and go to Seville from there.

Cheers,
n
--

On 5/9/06, Aahz <aahz at pythoncraft.com> wrote:
> The next meeting of BayPIGgies will be Thurs, May 11 at 7:30pm at Google.
>
> Note: Dennis Reinhardt is coordinating Google badges.  Please send e-mail
> to DennisR at dair.com by 4pm Weds 5/10 to get an advance badge.
>
>
> Dennis Reinhardt will present a short tutorial of using ctypes with the
> Windows API, followed by Stephen McInerney discussing the results of the
> BayPIGgies member survey.
>
>
> BayPIGgies meetings alternate between IronPort (San Bruno, California)
> and Google (Mountain View, California).  For more information and
> directions, see http://baypiggies.net/
>
>
> Before the meeting, we sometimes meet at 6pm for dinner.  Discussion of
> dinner plans is handled on the BayPIGgies mailing list.
>
> Advance notice:  We can use a speaker for June.  Please e-mail
> baypiggies at python.org if you want to suggest an agenda (or volunteer to
> give a presentation).
> --
> Aahz (aahz at pythoncraft.com)           <*>         http://www.pythoncraft.com/
>
> "Argue for your limitations, and sure enough they're yours."  --Richard Bach
> _______________________________________________
> Baypiggies mailing list
> Baypiggies at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies
>

From cappy2112 at gmail.com  Wed May 10 20:52:13 2006
From: cappy2112 at gmail.com (Tony C)
Date: Wed, 10 May 2006 11:52:13 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] Python Job posting- still allowed ?
Message-ID: <8249c4ac0605101152j7fff4686ydfef2c57d5ae6131@mail.gmail.com>

I know there were  some complaints about posting Python job listins.
I don't remember the outcome- but is it still ok to submit a posting for Bay
Area Python jobs?

If not, anyone who is looking ,email me privately.
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From p at ulmcnett.com  Wed May 10 21:12:05 2006
From: p at ulmcnett.com (Paul McNett)
Date: Wed, 10 May 2006 12:12:05 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] Python Job posting- still allowed ?
In-Reply-To: <8249c4ac0605101152j7fff4686ydfef2c57d5ae6131@mail.gmail.com>
References: <8249c4ac0605101152j7fff4686ydfef2c57d5ae6131@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <44623B05.5020208@ulmcnett.com>

Tony C wrote:
> I know there were  some complaints about posting Python job listins.
> I don't remember the outcome- but is it still ok to submit a posting for 
> Bay Area Python jobs?

I believe the complaints had more to do with posting non-Python or 
non-local jobs on baypiggies (such as the Pixar ones which seem to be 
C++ jobs and not Python jobs). If it is in the Bay Area and Python, it 
is on-topic and allowed. Just my 2 cents.

-- 
Paul McNett
http://paulmcnett.com
http://dabodev.com


From aahz at pythoncraft.com  Wed May 10 21:38:40 2006
From: aahz at pythoncraft.com (Aahz)
Date: Wed, 10 May 2006 12:38:40 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] Python Job posting- still allowed ?
In-Reply-To: <8249c4ac0605101152j7fff4686ydfef2c57d5ae6131@mail.gmail.com>
References: <8249c4ac0605101152j7fff4686ydfef2c57d5ae6131@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20060510193839.GA12375@panix.com>

On Wed, May 10, 2006, Tony C wrote:
>
> I know there were some complaints about posting Python job listins.  I
> don't remember the outcome- but is it still ok to submit a posting for
> Bay Area Python jobs?

The policy on baypiggies.net is still in force.
-- 
Aahz (aahz at pythoncraft.com)           <*>         http://www.pythoncraft.com/

"Argue for your limitations, and sure enough they're yours."  --Richard Bach

From cappy2112 at gmail.com  Wed May 10 22:28:28 2006
From: cappy2112 at gmail.com (Tony C)
Date: Wed, 10 May 2006 13:28:28 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] FWD: (Palo Alto) Python Architect - Linux, Apache,
	Postgre
Message-ID: <8249c4ac0605101328tfcc130bh28d21410d0987369@mail.gmail.com>

Contact the person in the email below.
I have NO other information other than this email. I am not affiliated with
the company, job, or recruiter.
////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////


 From: "Ralph Min" ralph at connextinc.com
   Date: Wed May 10, 2006 10:51am(PDT)
Subject: (Palo Alto)  Python Architect - Linux, Apache, Postgre

Please reference position ID#6294 when responding
Please reply with a copy of your resume as a Word attachment to:

ralph at connextinc.com


About the company
Our client combines technology infrastructure for data collection,
integration with large scale databases, and novel analytic techniques to
deliver new capabilities for polling. Traditional phone-based polling
techniques suffer from deteriorating response rates and escalating costs.
They are the first web-based vendor to provide an alternative that meets the

customer needs for accuracy, speed and efficiency.
Their team of thought leaders from the worlds of academia, politics, and
commercial research offer opinion polling services to political campaigns,
media organizations, non-profits, market research agencies and corporations.

Whether the customer needs are campaign list management, accurate online
sample, innovative online surveys, or cutting-edge online qualitative, this
company can provide a scientific solution to your research goals.

Python Architect
Your job is to manage a small team of engineers who are developing
applications in Linux, Apache, PostgreSQL and Python. You need to be both a
great manager and a great programmer (to keep up with a team of talented
programmers). You will be responsible for understanding the business and
user requirements, choosing the appropriate technologies, and managing the
design and implementation of their software systems. They are committed to
agile development practices in general and Python in particular as their
primary implementation language. The technologies revolve around the Web,
databases, and statistics, but, in the end, it's all about politics.

Job responsibilities include:
Gathering of user requirements.
System architecture and class design.
Project management and code reviews.
Management of QA.
Design and user documentation.
Team management.

Skills required include:
At least five years of software engineering experience.
Wide knowledge of software technologies, including Web applications and
databases.
Commitment to high quality software engineering practices, including
object-oriented design, unit testing, and agile development.
M.S. or preferably Ph.D. in computer science or related field.


Please reference position ID#6294 when responding
Please reply with a copy of your resume as a Word attachment to:

 <mailto:ralph at connextinc.com> ralph at connextinc.com
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From mac at Wireless.Com  Wed May 10 22:49:26 2006
From: mac at Wireless.Com (Mike Cheponis)
Date: Wed, 10 May 2006 13:49:26 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Baypiggies] Python Job posting- still allowed ?
In-Reply-To: <20060510193839.GA12375@panix.com>
References: <8249c4ac0605101152j7fff4686ydfef2c57d5ae6131@mail.gmail.com>
	<20060510193839.GA12375@panix.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.NEB.4.64.0605101349080.29886@S.culver.net>

What is the policy on baypiggies.net ?

On Wed, 10 May 2006, Aahz wrote:

> Date: Wed, 10 May 2006 12:38:40 -0700
> From: Aahz <aahz at pythoncraft.com>
> To: baypiggies at python.org
> Subject: Re: [Baypiggies] Python Job posting- still allowed ?
> 
> On Wed, May 10, 2006, Tony C wrote:
>>
>> I know there were some complaints about posting Python job listins.  I
>> don't remember the outcome- but is it still ok to submit a posting for
>> Bay Area Python jobs?
>
> The policy on baypiggies.net is still in force.
> -- 
> Aahz (aahz at pythoncraft.com)           <*>         http://www.pythoncraft.com/
>
> "Argue for your limitations, and sure enough they're yours."  --Richard Bach
> _______________________________________________
> Baypiggies mailing list
> Baypiggies at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies
>

From p at ulmcnett.com  Wed May 10 22:54:27 2006
From: p at ulmcnett.com (Paul McNett)
Date: Wed, 10 May 2006 13:54:27 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] Python Job posting- still allowed ?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.NEB.4.64.0605101349080.29886@S.culver.net>
References: <8249c4ac0605101152j7fff4686ydfef2c57d5ae6131@mail.gmail.com>	<20060510193839.GA12375@panix.com>
	<Pine.NEB.4.64.0605101349080.29886@S.culver.net>
Message-ID: <44625303.7000706@ulmcnett.com>

Mike Cheponis wrote:
> What is the policy on baypiggies.net ?

http://baypiggies.net/jobs.html


-- 
Paul McNett
http://paulmcnett.com
http://dabodev.com


From mac at Wireless.Com  Wed May 10 23:12:12 2006
From: mac at Wireless.Com (Mike Cheponis)
Date: Wed, 10 May 2006 14:12:12 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Baypiggies] Python Job posting- still allowed ?
In-Reply-To: <44625303.7000706@ulmcnett.com>
References: <8249c4ac0605101152j7fff4686ydfef2c57d5ae6131@mail.gmail.com>
	<20060510193839.GA12375@panix.com>
	<Pine.NEB.4.64.0605101349080.29886@S.culver.net>
	<44625303.7000706@ulmcnett.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.NEB.4.64.0605101402160.29886@S.culver.net>

Thanks all.


Think about how much easier it would have been to post this initially, rather than begging the question:

     * You must subscribe to the BayPIGgies mailing list so that you can read discussion of your ad
     * Principals only, no recruiters. We prefer ads to come from technical people to make it easier to get questions answered
     * Each company may post one ad per month
     * Please make clear how Python will be used on the job
     * Please restrict the geographic region to the greater SF Bay Area, roughly south to Monterey, north to Santa Rosa, and east to Sacramento

I think this policy is short-sighted.

There is enough noise on this list so that, for example, a company posting TWO per month (or, gosh, even THREE) would not make a detectable difference traffic.

But it's the meta-effect that I worry about: By getting a flow of offered jobs, we can all see what is in demand, what is considered essential by the market, what we might want to concentrate on to remain relevant.


Bottom line: I'd like to see MANY more job ads on this list, interspersed with the general list chatter (by people who almost never come to the meetings, I might add... Maybe we should make a policy that you can't post to the list unless you attend at least half the meetings in a given 12-month period?  Just a thought...).


I hope the Survey that is being talked about at Thursday's meeting has addressed this issue about job postings.



On Wed, 10 May 2006, Paul McNett wrote:

>> What is the policy on baypiggies.net ?
>
> http://baypiggies.net/jobs.html

From aahz at pythoncraft.com  Wed May 10 23:32:31 2006
From: aahz at pythoncraft.com (Aahz)
Date: Wed, 10 May 2006 14:32:31 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] Python Job posting- still allowed ?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.NEB.4.64.0605101402160.29886@S.culver.net>
References: <8249c4ac0605101152j7fff4686ydfef2c57d5ae6131@mail.gmail.com>
	<20060510193839.GA12375@panix.com>
	<Pine.NEB.4.64.0605101349080.29886@S.culver.net>
	<44625303.7000706@ulmcnett.com>
	<Pine.NEB.4.64.0605101402160.29886@S.culver.net>
Message-ID: <20060510213231.GA20009@panix.com>

On Wed, May 10, 2006, Mike Cheponis wrote:
>
> I think this policy is short-sighted.

This policy is not up for discussion.  Long experience indicates that
allowing more job ads quickly changes the character of a discussion list.
I carefully designed the policy to permit job ads without forcing the
creation of a separate BayPIGgies job list.
-- 
Aahz (aahz at pythoncraft.com)           <*>         http://www.pythoncraft.com/

"Argue for your limitations, and sure enough they're yours."  --Richard Bach

From doug at polimetrix.com  Wed May 10 23:52:47 2006
From: doug at polimetrix.com (Doug Rivers)
Date: Wed, 10 May 2006 14:52:47 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] FWD: (Palo Alto) Python Architect - Linux, Apache,
	Postgre
Message-ID: <016D23FB66B59D45A107C4741789271A3A87FA@washington.polimetrix.com>


The company described below is Polimetrix and the description is ripped off of our website. The recruiter contacted me and said that he had a candidate for this position and asked whether we'd be interested in seeing his/her resume. We did not ask the recruiter to post this to the list and have had no prior dealings with him. Nor do I plan to have any future dealings with him (though we're always looking for good Python people).

Doug Rivers


For your information, here is the email Mr. Min sent to me on 5/9/06:

---------------insert

Hello Douglas,
 
Hope all is well.  I am contacting you to find out if you are still looking for a Python Architect.  I am currently representing a candidate who I think would be excellent for Polimetrix, Inc..
 
This candidate has more than 7 years of management experience in developing applications in various platforms and OSs.  The individual also has experience with QA management and system architecture.  The candidate is also knowledgeable in various database technologies, software technologies, and web applications.  A great person all around, who I think would be an asset to the organization.
 
He has a MS in Computer Science and is interviewing locally to the Palo Alto area.  Let me know if this candidate will be of interest to you, and I'll be happy to forward a confidential copy of the resume for your review.  Thank you for your time.  I look forward to your response.
 
Best regards,
 
Ralph Min
Connext, Inc.
ralph at connextinc.com
Tel: (310) 279-5546
Fax: (650) 887-0404

-------------end

-----Original Message-----
From: baypiggies-bounces+doug=polimetrix.com at python.org on behalf of Tony C
Sent: Wed 5/10/2006 1:28 PM
To: baypiggies at python.org
Subject: [Baypiggies] FWD: (Palo Alto) Python Architect - Linux, Apache,Postgre
 
Contact the person in the email below.
I have NO other information other than this email. I am not affiliated with the company, job, or recruiter.
//////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// 


 From: "Ralph Min" ralph at connextinc.com
   Date: Wed May 10, 2006 10:51am(PDT)
Subject: (Palo Alto)  Python Architect - Linux, Apache, Postgre

Please reference position ID#6294 when responding 
Please reply with a copy of your resume as a Word attachment to:

ralph at connextinc.com


About the company
Our client combines technology infrastructure for data collection,
integration with large scale databases, and novel analytic techniques to 
deliver new capabilities for polling. Traditional phone-based polling
techniques suffer from deteriorating response rates and escalating costs.
They are the first web-based vendor to provide an alternative that meets the 
customer needs for accuracy, speed and efficiency.
Their team of thought leaders from the worlds of academia, politics, and
commercial research offer opinion polling services to political campaigns,
media organizations, non-profits, market research agencies and corporations. 
Whether the customer needs are campaign list management, accurate online
sample, innovative online surveys, or cutting-edge online qualitative, this
company can provide a scientific solution to your research goals. 

Python Architect
Your job is to manage a small team of engineers who are developing
applications in Linux, Apache, PostgreSQL and Python. You need to be both a
great manager and a great programmer (to keep up with a team of talented 
programmers). You will be responsible for understanding the business and
user requirements, choosing the appropriate technologies, and managing the
design and implementation of their software systems. They are committed to 
agile development practices in general and Python in particular as their
primary implementation language. The technologies revolve around the Web,
databases, and statistics, but, in the end, it's all about politics. 

Job responsibilities include:
Gathering of user requirements.
System architecture and class design.
Project management and code reviews.
Management of QA.
Design and user documentation.
Team management. 

Skills required include:
At least five years of software engineering experience.
Wide knowledge of software technologies, including Web applications and
databases.
Commitment to high quality software engineering practices, including 
object-oriented design, unit testing, and agile development.
M.S. or preferably Ph.D. in computer science or related field.


Please reference position ID#6294 when responding
Please reply with a copy of your resume as a Word attachment to: 

 <mailto:ralph at connextinc.com> ralph at connextinc.com 


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From dyoo at hkn.eecs.berkeley.edu  Thu May 11 00:29:26 2006
From: dyoo at hkn.eecs.berkeley.edu (Danny Yoo)
Date: Wed, 10 May 2006 15:29:26 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Baypiggies] Participation and improvement [Was: Re: Python Job
 posting- still allowed ?]
In-Reply-To: <Pine.NEB.4.64.0605101402160.29886@S.culver.net>
References: <8249c4ac0605101152j7fff4686ydfef2c57d5ae6131@mail.gmail.com>
	<20060510193839.GA12375@panix.com>
	<Pine.NEB.4.64.0605101349080.29886@S.culver.net>
	<44625303.7000706@ulmcnett.com>
	<Pine.NEB.4.64.0605101402160.29886@S.culver.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0605101457030.7746@hkn.eecs.berkeley.edu>

> Think about how much easier it would have been to post this initially, 
> rather than begging the question:

[job posting policy content cut]

Hi Mike,

True; that probably would have been the better approach.  It's sometimes 
difficult to know if a response to a question is insufficiently 
informative;  we don't know enough about the questioner to realize that 
"look at the web site" might be too abrupt.


> Bottom line: I'd like to see MANY more job ads on this list, 
> interspersed with the general list chatter (by people who almost never 
> come to the meetings, I might add... Maybe we should make a policy that 
> you can't post to the list unless you attend at least half the meetings 
> in a given 12-month period?  Just a thought...).

I just wanted to comment on the last parenthetical comment.  Rather than 
encourage a policy of exclusion, I'd rather see a policy of participation.

(Of course, I'm one of those people who haven't come to a Baypiggies 
meeting in a while, so of course I'm obligated to object to being 
silenced.  *grin*)

That is, I think one could spend energy to discourage a group of people 
from dominating discussion.  But that energy could be also directed to 
start a new thread of conversation that allows others to participate 
freely.


Let's go meta on this.  Here's a question for folks here: as a 
professional programmer, what other community resources do you use to 
become better at what you do?  Are there local workshops or classes in the 
area that have been particularly effective and successful?

Do subscriptions to organizations like the ACM or IEEE (or BayPIGgies) 
help at all?  If not, what can such organizations do to help improve its 
participants?


Best of wishes!

From spmcinerney at hotmail.com  Thu May 11 00:52:26 2006
From: spmcinerney at hotmail.com (Stephen McInerney)
Date: Wed, 10 May 2006 15:52:26 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] Participation and improvement [Was: Re: Python Job
	posting- sti
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0605101457030.7746@hkn.eecs.berkeley.edu>
Message-ID: <BAY103-F3005E9974B3EE7FF75421EA0AE0@phx.gbl>

Danny & Mike,

Re list use and volume: there are widely differing opinions. Some people 
susbscribe
to many lists and do not want to miss crucial announcements. We may want to 
fork off baypiggies-announce and baypiggies-discussion (and maybe even 
baypiggies-jobs).

Re resources/organizations people use: This was one of the survey questions 
and I will have the results tomorrow night (and on the list a couple of days 
after).

Regards,
Stephen



From ken at seehart.com  Thu May 11 01:29:57 2006
From: ken at seehart.com (Ken Seehart)
Date: Wed, 10 May 2006 16:29:57 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] Mini languages - possible short talk in the future?
In-Reply-To: <c41f67b90605081633p617607f9s24cde54875467429@mail.gmail.com>
References: <445E3E92.7050003@seehart.com> <445E7E4E.6060800@seehart.com>
	<c41f67b90605081633p617607f9s24cde54875467429@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <44627775.2070804@seehart.com>

Shannon -jj Behrens wrote:

> On 5/7/06, Ken Seehart <ken at seehart.com> wrote:
>
>>  Never mind, this is really trivial.  Any C++ code that is outside my
>> "cellclass" block is passed on unmodified. The only recursion I have 
>> to deal
>> with in my grammar is a C++ function body.  And since I don't 
>> actually need
>> to process the function body, I just need to recursively scan for a 
>> pair of
>> matching braces (not rocket science).  Everything else is regular
>> expressions.  I definitely don't need an LALR parser for this :-)
>>
>>  So I don't have any further questions.
>>
>>  Thanks Dennis and Dennis for your comments.
>>
>>  - Ken
>>
>>  Ken Seehart wrote:
>>
>>  I want to implement a simple language translator (a superset of 
>> C++), but I
>> haven't done anything of this kind since college (a couple decades 
>> ago).  I
>> would like to use python tools as much as possible.
>>
>>  NICL code -> [C++ preprocessor (gcc)] -> [NICL translator] -> [C++ 
>> compiler
>> (gcc)] -> object code
>>
>>  The translator needs to be able to parse special non-c++ syntax to 
>> generate
>> c++, and leave other code intact.
>>
>>  More documentation on my project here:
>>
>> http://www.seehart.com/neuralintegrator.com/documentation/ni_book/defining_cell_types.st 
>>
>>
>>  I could almost get by with just a python script using regular 
>> expressions
>> (my grammar is simple enough), but I need to know a certain amount of
>> contextual information. E.g., if I am parsing "cellclass mycell { ... 
>> }",
>> the contents between the braces must be processed accordingly.  This 
>> means I
>> have to know when I reach the closing brace (which I can't do with 
>> regular
>> expressions).  However, I'm sure I could do a prototype this way, 
>> using the
>> assumption that the a closing brace on a class matches "^};", but 
>> that would
>> be just plain sloppy :-)
>>
>>  So I think one way or another I'm stuck with implementing an LALR 
>> parser.
>>
>>  I'm wondering if there is anyone in this community with experience 
>> doing
>> this kind of thing.
>>
>>  - Ken Seehart
>
>
> I once interviewed at a company that had implemented a mini-language
> on top of C++ using templates and operator overloading.  Apparently,
> they had even overloaded the comma operator.
>
> /me shudders
>
> -jj
>
Yikes.  Template abuse is pretty scary stuff.  Here's a scary book on 
the subject,
for those who are interested. : http://boost-consulting.com/mplbook/

Kind of reminds me of people who get way into John Conways "Life", and build
computers and things out of glider guns.

Perhaps a more elegant way to do metaprogramming would be to kind of squish
python into the preprocessor phase.

I recommend making sure you actually have a good reason to do this kind 
of thing.
Usually more straightforward techniques suffice (e.g. write your program 
in python
and use extending and embedding).  But good reasons do exist.

Anyway, I have successfully completed my NICL compiler.  It really works!

*NICL code -> [preprocessor (cpp)] -> [NICL translator] -> [compiler 
(gcc)] -> object code*

If there is interest, I'd be willing to give a short talk on the topic 
some time:
  "How to extend the C++ grammar using Python"

The documentation on my language is here:

    http://www.neuralintegrator.com/documentation/ni_book/nicl.st

- Ken Seehart

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From jjinux at gmail.com  Thu May 11 01:48:12 2006
From: jjinux at gmail.com (Shannon -jj Behrens)
Date: Wed, 10 May 2006 16:48:12 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] Mini languages - possible short talk in the future?
In-Reply-To: <44627775.2070804@seehart.com>
References: <445E3E92.7050003@seehart.com> <445E7E4E.6060800@seehart.com>
	<c41f67b90605081633p617607f9s24cde54875467429@mail.gmail.com>
	<44627775.2070804@seehart.com>
Message-ID: <c41f67b90605101648w3bfc299cib9373f19106c1a0a@mail.gmail.com>

On 5/10/06, Ken Seehart <ken at seehart.com> wrote:
>  Shannon -jj Behrens wrote:
> On 5/7/06, Ken Seehart <ken at seehart.com> wrote:
>
>  Never mind, this is really trivial.  Any C++ code that is outside my
>  "cellclass" block is passed on unmodified. The only recursion I have to
> deal
>  with in my grammar is a C++ function body.  And since I don't actually need
>  to process the function body, I just need to recursively scan for a pair of
>  matching braces (not rocket science).  Everything else is regular
>  expressions.  I definitely don't need an LALR parser for this :-)
>
>   So I don't have any further questions.
>
>   Thanks Dennis and Dennis for your comments.
>
>   - Ken
>
>   Ken Seehart wrote:
>
>   I want to implement a simple language translator (a superset of C++), but
> I
>  haven't done anything of this kind since college (a couple decades ago).  I
>  would like to use python tools as much as possible.
>
>   NICL code -> [C++ preprocessor (gcc)] -> [NICL translator] -> [C++
> compiler
>  (gcc)] -> object code
>
>   The translator needs to be able to parse special non-c++ syntax to
> generate
>  c++, and leave other code intact.
>
>   More documentation on my project here:
>
> http://www.seehart.com/neuralintegrator.com/documentation/ni_book/defining_cell_types.st
>
>   I could almost get by with just a python script using regular expressions
>  (my grammar is simple enough), but I need to know a certain amount of
>  contextual information. E.g., if I am parsing "cellclass mycell { ... }",
>  the contents between the braces must be processed accordingly.  This means
> I
>  have to know when I reach the closing brace (which I can't do with regular
>  expressions).  However, I'm sure I could do a prototype this way, using the
>  assumption that the a closing brace on a class matches "^};", but that
> would
>  be just plain sloppy :-)
>
>   So I think one way or another I'm stuck with implementing an LALR parser.
>
>   I'm wondering if there is anyone in this community with experience doing
>  this kind of thing.
>
>   - Ken Seehart
>
>  I once interviewed at a company that had implemented a mini-language
>  on top of C++ using templates and operator overloading.  Apparently,
>  they had even overloaded the comma operator.
>
>  /me shudders
>
>  -jj
>
>  Yikes.  Template abuse is pretty scary stuff.  Here's a scary book on the
> subject,
>  for those who are interested. :
> http://boost-consulting.com/mplbook/
>
>  Kind of reminds me of people who get way into John Conways "Life", and
> build
>  computers and things out of glider guns.

Heh, I did my senior thesis on Conway's game of "Life", but now we're
*way* off topic ;)

>  Perhaps a more elegant way to do metaprogramming would be to kind of squish
>  python into the preprocessor phase.

Agreed.  Both the QT folks and the GTK folks have special
preprocessors.  The QT one is mandatory, the GTK one is not.

>  I recommend making sure you actually have a good reason to do this kind of
> thing.
>  Usually more straightforward techniques suffice (e.g. write your program in
> python
>  and use extending and embedding).  But good reasons do exist.
>
>  Anyway, I have successfully completed my NICL compiler.  It really works!
>
>  NICL code -> [preprocessor (cpp)] -> [NICL translator] -> [compiler (gcc)]
> -> object code
>
>  If there is interest, I'd be willing to give a short talk on the topic some
> time:
>    "How to extend the C++ grammar using Python"
>
>  The documentation on my language is here:
>
>
> http://www.neuralintegrator.com/documentation/ni_book/nicl.st

Happy Hacking,
-jj

From jjinux at gmail.com  Thu May 11 01:49:18 2006
From: jjinux at gmail.com (Shannon -jj Behrens)
Date: Wed, 10 May 2006 16:49:18 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] Participation and improvement [Was: Re: Python Job
	posting- sti
In-Reply-To: <BAY103-F3005E9974B3EE7FF75421EA0AE0@phx.gbl>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0605101457030.7746@hkn.eecs.berkeley.edu>
	<BAY103-F3005E9974B3EE7FF75421EA0AE0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <c41f67b90605101649l6c58d08fxcb794969f2bc7b7b@mail.gmail.com>

On 5/10/06, Stephen McInerney <spmcinerney at hotmail.com> wrote:
> Danny & Mike,
>
> Re list use and volume: there are widely differing opinions. Some people
> susbscribe
> to many lists and do not want to miss crucial announcements. We may want to
> fork off baypiggies-announce and baypiggies-discussion (and maybe even
> baypiggies-jobs).
>
> Re resources/organizations people use: This was one of the survey questions
> and I will have the results tomorrow night (and on the list a couple of days
> after).

+1 to the idea of baypiggies-announce, baypiggies-discussion, and
baypiggies-jobs.

-jj

From jjinux at gmail.com  Thu May 11 01:52:39 2006
From: jjinux at gmail.com (Shannon -jj Behrens)
Date: Wed, 10 May 2006 16:52:39 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] Participation and improvement [Was: Re: Python Job
	posting- still allowed ?]
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0605101457030.7746@hkn.eecs.berkeley.edu>
References: <8249c4ac0605101152j7fff4686ydfef2c57d5ae6131@mail.gmail.com>
	<20060510193839.GA12375@panix.com>
	<Pine.NEB.4.64.0605101349080.29886@S.culver.net>
	<44625303.7000706@ulmcnett.com>
	<Pine.NEB.4.64.0605101402160.29886@S.culver.net>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.0605101457030.7746@hkn.eecs.berkeley.edu>
Message-ID: <c41f67b90605101652l3c7153c5s7794d62df9abb47f@mail.gmail.com>

On 5/10/06, Danny Yoo <dyoo at hkn.eecs.berkeley.edu> wrote:
> > Think about how much easier it would have been to post this initially,
> > rather than begging the question:
>
> [job posting policy content cut]
>
> Hi Mike,
>
> True; that probably would have been the better approach.  It's sometimes
> difficult to know if a response to a question is insufficiently
> informative;  we don't know enough about the questioner to realize that
> "look at the web site" might be too abrupt.
>
>
> > Bottom line: I'd like to see MANY more job ads on this list,
> > interspersed with the general list chatter (by people who almost never
> > come to the meetings, I might add... Maybe we should make a policy that
> > you can't post to the list unless you attend at least half the meetings
> > in a given 12-month period?  Just a thought...).
>
> I just wanted to comment on the last parenthetical comment.  Rather than
> encourage a policy of exclusion, I'd rather see a policy of participation.
>
> (Of course, I'm one of those people who haven't come to a Baypiggies
> meeting in a while, so of course I'm obligated to object to being
> silenced.  *grin*)
>
> That is, I think one could spend energy to discourage a group of people
> from dominating discussion.  But that energy could be also directed to
> start a new thread of conversation that allows others to participate
> freely.
>
>
> Let's go meta on this.  Here's a question for folks here: as a
> professional programmer, what other community resources do you use to
> become better at what you do?  Are there local workshops or classes in the
> area that have been particularly effective and successful?
>
> Do subscriptions to organizations like the ACM or IEEE (or BayPIGgies)
> help at all?  If not, what can such organizations do to help improve its
> participants?

I pay attention to the SDForum and the ACCU.

BayPiggies has value as a mailing list even if you can't make it to a
meeting.  This is about the only Python mailing list that I'm on, and
I find it valuable.

From larryt at winfirst.com  Wed May 10 13:29:17 2006
From: larryt at winfirst.com (larryt at winfirst.com)
Date: 10 May 2006 11:29:17 +0000
Subject: [Baypiggies] FWD: (Palo Alto) Python Architect - Linux, Apache,
	Postgre
In-Reply-To: <016D23FB66B59D45A107C4741789271A3A87FA@washington.polimetrix.com>
References: <016D23FB66B59D45A107C4741789271A3A87FA@washington.polimetrix.com>
Message-ID: <x77j4uxgmq.fsf@winfirst.com>


"Doug Rivers" <doug at polimetrix.com> writes:

> Nor do I plan to have any future dealings with him 
> 

And nor should anyone else, for the next line alone, if the rest
wasn't bad enough already. 

>> Please reply with a copy of your resume as a Word attachment to:
>>  
>> ralph at connextinc.com

-larry


From zia at cruzio.com  Thu May 11 08:56:33 2006
From: zia at cruzio.com (Doug Landauer)
Date: Wed, 10 May 2006 23:56:33 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] Python Job posting- still allowed ?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.NEB.4.64.0605101402160.29886@S.culver.net>
References: <8249c4ac0605101152j7fff4686ydfef2c57d5ae6131@mail.gmail.com>
	<20060510193839.GA12375@panix.com>
	<Pine.NEB.4.64.0605101349080.29886@S.culver.net>
	<44625303.7000706@ulmcnett.com>
	<Pine.NEB.4.64.0605101402160.29886@S.culver.net>
Message-ID: <70bf093fa9b026016938a089eb930b56@cruzio.com>

On May 10, 2006, at 2:12 PM, Mike Cheponis wrote:
> Think about how much easier it would have been to post this initially 
> ...

Think about how much less of a bother to the rest of us it would have 
been for you to try exactly that question ("What is the policy on 
baypiggies.net?") on Google first.  Or after Aahz hinted towards its 
location.

> There is enough noise on this list so that, for example, a company 
> posting TWO per month (or, gosh, even THREE) would not make a 
> detectable difference traffic.

That might have been true for April 2006.  I recall no other month with 
even one third as much traffic:  The archives since 11/2005 show 30kb, 
112k, 109, 67, 179, and then 664k for April.)

> ... Maybe we should make a policy that you can't post to the list 
> unless you attend at least half the meetings in a given 12-month 
> period?  Just a thought...).

-9

  -- Doug L.


From mac at Wireless.Com  Thu May 11 11:15:34 2006
From: mac at Wireless.Com (Mike Cheponis)
Date: Thu, 11 May 2006 02:15:34 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Baypiggies] Python Job posting- still allowed ?
In-Reply-To: <70bf093fa9b026016938a089eb930b56@cruzio.com>
References: <8249c4ac0605101152j7fff4686ydfef2c57d5ae6131@mail.gmail.com>
	<20060510193839.GA12375@panix.com>
	<Pine.NEB.4.64.0605101349080.29886@S.culver.net>
	<44625303.7000706@ulmcnett.com>
	<Pine.NEB.4.64.0605101402160.29886@S.culver.net>
	<70bf093fa9b026016938a089eb930b56@cruzio.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.NEB.4.64.0605110151170.29886@S.culver.net>

On Wed, 10 May 2006, Doug Landauer wrote:

>> Think about how much easier it would have been to post this initially


> Think about how much less of a bother to the rest of us

You speak for "the rest of us"? (Sounds like an Apple marketing promo...)


> it would have been for you to try exactly that question ("What is the policy on
> baypiggies.net?") on Google first.  Or after Aahz hinted towards its
> location.

But, but, but....

it was asked on an email list!  The _point_ of an email list is, I think, to exchange information via (gulp!) email!

It's a simple courtesy, especially for those of us who read this group on our mobile phones.

I am thankful that Aahz posted _something_, tho.  Much better than nothing.

And URLs are transitory; 404s and whatnot happen all the time.  Email is better for this sort of thing.


You might not agree with me, but look at it this way:  If I agreed with you, then we'd both be wrong.


>> There is enough noise on this list so that, for example, a company
>>,,,
> That might have been true for April 2006.  I recall no other month with
>...

I don't think you understood my meta-point.  Please email privately if you're still interested.


>> ... Maybe we should make a policy that you can't post to the list
>> unless you attend at least half the meetings in a given 12-month
>> period?  Just a thought...).

> -9

Yes, I should have put in the ;-)  but I hoped it was obvious.

http://tinyurl.com/pu9rv


I assume, Doug, that you won't be coming to the Thursday meeting?  ;-)  (But you still want to be able to post to the list? ...)

>  -- Doug L.

Mike

From mac at Wireless.Com  Thu May 11 11:19:09 2006
From: mac at Wireless.Com (Mike Cheponis)
Date: Thu, 11 May 2006 02:19:09 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Baypiggies] Participation and improvement [Was: Re: Python Job
 posting- sti
In-Reply-To: <c41f67b90605101649l6c58d08fxcb794969f2bc7b7b@mail.gmail.com>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0605101457030.7746@hkn.eecs.berkeley.edu>
	<BAY103-F3005E9974B3EE7FF75421EA0AE0@phx.gbl>
	<c41f67b90605101649l6c58d08fxcb794969f2bc7b7b@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.NEB.4.64.0605110215540.29886@S.culver.net>

I like it!

-Mike


On Wed, 10 May 2006, Shannon -jj Behrens wrote:

> +1 to the idea of baypiggies-announce, baypiggies-discussion, and baypiggies-jobs.

> -jj

From tpc247 at gmail.com  Thu May 11 13:55:23 2006
From: tpc247 at gmail.com (tpc247 at gmail.com)
Date: Thu, 11 May 2006 04:55:23 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] Participation and improvement [Was: Re: Python Job
	posting- still allowed ?]
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0605101457030.7746@hkn.eecs.berkeley.edu>
References: <8249c4ac0605101152j7fff4686ydfef2c57d5ae6131@mail.gmail.com>
	<20060510193839.GA12375@panix.com>
	<Pine.NEB.4.64.0605101349080.29886@S.culver.net>
	<44625303.7000706@ulmcnett.com>
	<Pine.NEB.4.64.0605101402160.29886@S.culver.net>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.0605101457030.7746@hkn.eecs.berkeley.edu>
Message-ID: <bae1efdf0605110455ld075decu4710bffd522fc500@mail.gmail.com>

On 5/10/06, Danny Yoo <dyoo at hkn.eecs.berkeley.edu> wrote:
>
>
> Let's go meta on this.  Here's a question for folks here: as a
> professional programmer, what other community resources do you use to
> become better at what you do?  Are there local workshops or classes in the
> area that have been particularly effective and successful?



hi Danny, haven't seen or heard from you in a while, hope everything is well
with you.  To answer your question, I really enjoyed the Object Oriented
Design class from Allen Holub offered in his house in Berkeley.  After I
came out of that class, I realized I needed to read more on design patterns
and test driven development.  The class taught me that 75% of software
projects fail, not because the software doesn't work, but because it doesn't
do anything useful. What was emphasized in the five day class was the
primacy of object oriented design and design patterns in creating software
that is easy to maintain and to upgrade.
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From aahz at pythoncraft.com  Thu May 11 16:58:53 2006
From: aahz at pythoncraft.com (Aahz)
Date: Thu, 11 May 2006 07:58:53 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] Python Job posting- still allowed ?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.NEB.4.64.0605110151170.29886@S.culver.net>
References: <8249c4ac0605101152j7fff4686ydfef2c57d5ae6131@mail.gmail.com>
	<20060510193839.GA12375@panix.com>
	<Pine.NEB.4.64.0605101349080.29886@S.culver.net>
	<44625303.7000706@ulmcnett.com>
	<Pine.NEB.4.64.0605101402160.29886@S.culver.net>
	<70bf093fa9b026016938a089eb930b56@cruzio.com>
	<Pine.NEB.4.64.0605110151170.29886@S.culver.net>
Message-ID: <20060511145853.GA25648@panix.com>

On Thu, May 11, 2006, Mike Cheponis wrote:
>
> But, but, but....
>
> it was asked on an email list!  The _point_ of an email list is, I
> think, to exchange information via (gulp!) email!
>
> It's a simple courtesy, especially for those of us who read this group
> on our mobile phones.
>
> I am thankful that Aahz posted _something_, tho.  Much better than
> nothing.
>
> And URLs are transitory; 404s and whatnot happen all the time.  Email
> is better for this sort of thing.

You'll note that I did not actually post an URL.  I referenced the
BayPIGgies web site, which I think can reasonably be expected to hold the
job posting policy, precisely because e-mail lists are transitory.  I
didn't even look up the URL, quite frankly.  I'm busy, and I think that
policy questions are best answered by going to the web site; I figured
that if I did that, people might remember that for the future when they
wanted to post an ad.  Obviously, we could start posting a FAQ to the
list weekly, but I think that would just add clutter: the kind of people
who won't visit the web site won't read the list FAQ, either.
-- 
Aahz (aahz at pythoncraft.com)           <*>         http://www.pythoncraft.com/

"Argue for your limitations, and sure enough they're yours."  --Richard Bach

From harrington_chad at hotmail.com  Thu May 11 16:59:57 2006
From: harrington_chad at hotmail.com (Chad Harrington)
Date: Thu, 11 May 2006 07:59:57 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] Participation and improvement [Was: Re: Python Job
	posting- sti
In-Reply-To: <Pine.NEB.4.64.0605110215540.29886@S.culver.net>
Message-ID: <BAY103-F7BFAEAB0AC244E83493E282AF0@phx.gbl>

+1

Chad Harrington
harrington_chad at hotmail.com



----Original Message Follows----
From: Mike Cheponis <mac at Wireless.Com>
To: baypiggies at python.org
Subject: Re: [Baypiggies] Participation and improvement [Was: Re: Python Job 
posting- sti
Date: Thu, 11 May 2006 02:19:09 -0700 (PDT)

I like it!

-Mike


On Wed, 10 May 2006, Shannon -jj Behrens wrote:

 > +1 to the idea of baypiggies-announce, baypiggies-discussion, and 
baypiggies-jobs.

 > -jj
_______________________________________________
Baypiggies mailing list
Baypiggies at python.org
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies



From bos at serpentine.com  Thu May 11 17:36:56 2006
From: bos at serpentine.com (Bryan O'Sullivan)
Date: Thu, 11 May 2006 08:36:56 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] June talk volunteer: Mercurial
Message-ID: <1147361817.20783.6.camel@chalcedony.pathscale.com>

Hi -
        
I'd be interested in giving a talk at BayPiggies on the Mercurial
distributed SCM.  It's written in Python, portable, distributed, easy to
learn, and very, very fast.

As to why it's interesting, it's being used by such big, well-regarded
operating system projects as Xen and OpenSolaris, and smaller, popular
projects such as MoinMoin and microformats.

If you're interested, some topics to cover would be:

      * How fast is it?  (Answer: faster than almost every other SCM
        tool)
      * How easy is it to pick up and use?  (Answer: 5 minutes or so)
      * What are some of the techniques it uses to get such good
        performance?

Here's the project URL:

http://www.selenic.com/mercurial/

        <b
        


From spmcinerney at hotmail.com  Thu May 11 19:40:47 2006
From: spmcinerney at hotmail.com (Stephen McInerney)
Date: Thu, 11 May 2006 10:40:47 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] Python Job posting- still allowed ?
In-Reply-To: <20060511145853.GA25648@panix.com>
Message-ID: <BAY103-F456EC84FEDCB199D7055BA0AF0@phx.gbl>

Aahz, Mike,

How about we attach the *URL* to an FAQ at bottom of messages?
(whenever the new website organization is done)
The FAQ can answer all these sorts of policy questions.

<slightly offtopic>
As to URLs being transitory, that's not always avoidable.
http://linuxmafia.com/ is down, including the excellent article Rich Morin 
linked to:
  "Recipe for a Successful Linux User Group"
  http://linuxmafia.com/faq/Linux_PR/newlug.html

Regards,
Stephen


>From: Aahz <aahz at pythoncraft.com>

>You'll note that I did not actually post an URL.  I referenced the
>BayPIGgies web site, which I think can reasonably be expected to hold the
>job posting policy, precisely because e-mail lists are transitory.  I
>didn't even look up the URL, quite frankly.  I'm busy, and I think that
>policy questions are best answered by going to the web site; I figured
>that if I did that, people might remember that for the future when they
>wanted to post an ad.  Obviously, we could start posting a FAQ to the
>list weekly, but I think that would just add clutter: the kind of people
>who won't visit the web site won't read the list FAQ, either.



From tpc247 at gmail.com  Thu May 11 20:30:04 2006
From: tpc247 at gmail.com (tpc247 at gmail.com)
Date: Thu, 11 May 2006 11:30:04 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] Participation and improvement [Was: Re: Python
	Jobposting- still allowed ?]
In-Reply-To: <BAY103-F8E90BB690CA558A94B4DAA0AF0@phx.gbl>
References: <bae1efdf0605110455ld075decu4710bffd522fc500@mail.gmail.com>
	<BAY103-F8E90BB690CA558A94B4DAA0AF0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <bae1efdf0605111130q37c76449y3c1052f293931ad9@mail.gmail.com>

On 5/11/06, Stephen McInerney <spmcinerney at hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> Can you please publicise the details of the Allen Holub course,
> on the list?
> Is it geared for C++ or language-agnostic?
>
> hi Stephen, my notes from the class have Allen Holub making some
references to Java tools, e.g., J2EE, the Tapestry framework, the Provider
interface and such, more because Java was my first language so it was a
handy frame of reference.  The course is language agnostic, and I know Allen
has made references to C++, as well as many other languages, in the class.
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From p at ulmcnett.com  Thu May 11 23:26:26 2006
From: p at ulmcnett.com (Paul McNett)
Date: Thu, 11 May 2006 14:26:26 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] [OT] IronPort Blacklists Google
Message-ID: <4463AC02.9090103@ulmcnett.com>

I noticed that my mailserver was rejecting some incoming messages from 
gmail users, and then realized that IronPort may be involved in the 
blocking:

http://www.spamcop.net/w3m?action=checkblock&ip=66.249.92.169

At the time of this posting, I get a page that says:

66.249.92.169 listed in bl.spamcop.net (127.0.0.2)
[snip]

If you are the administrator of ug-out-1314.google.com and you are sure 
it will not be the subject of any more reports of spam, you may cause 
the system to be delisted without waiting for us to review the issue.

[snip]
In the past 29.9 days, it has been listed 7 times for a total of 3.3 days
Other hosts in this "neighborhood" with spam reports
66.249.92.168 66.249.92.170 66.249.92.171 66.249.92.172 66.249.92.173 
66.249.92.174 66.249.92.175
[snip]
Copyright (C) 1998-2005, IronPort Systems, Inc. All rights reserved
[snip]

I only post this here because I thought it interesting that there is 
another connection, besides meeting locations, between the two 
companies. Sorry if it is considered clutter by some.

I presume that someone malicious is submitting gmail addresses to cause 
trouble, not that IronPort or Google are at direct fault.

-- 
Paul McNett
http://paulmcnett.com
http://dabodev.com


From donnamsnow at gmail.com  Fri May 12 08:58:09 2006
From: donnamsnow at gmail.com (Donna M. Snow)
Date: Thu, 11 May 2006 23:58:09 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] tonights meeting - (my feelings won't be hurt if you
	delete)
Message-ID: <44643201.6000001@gmail.com>

Nice to meet everyone!! (Stephen McInerney I meant to leave you the rest 
of the strawberries!! but that's ok I just ate the rest of them.. 
heehee..mm yummy)

Just a couple things I was thinking about when I got home.. I'm a part 
of the Linux Picnic volunteer group... every year it's the Saturday 
AFTER the Linux World Conference in SF...this year the Linux Picnic is 
August 19, 2006 ... why don't we plan on going together as a group?? Or 
at least meet each other there...
Just an idea for a social event outside of our meetings.

It was the first time I've attended a meeting in a year.. last time was 
Alex's presentation last May..(I can't believe it's been THAT long)...

Dennis.. the mapping and random access was absolutely awesome, we 
definitely need to keep that going at every meeting (my good friend 
Stephen Hindle was a first time attendee and he thoroughly enjoyed that 
part of the meeting).

Stephen, the data you provided us was meticulous and it was obvious you 
put a lot of hard work into gathering these statistics for us, Thank 
You! I know we didn't have an opportunity to discuss your findings but 
it definitely left us much to think about in the coming months as we 
plan out the meetings.

I bought toooo much food! But that's ok..I have six kids ages 9 yo - 21 
yo.. they'll eat what was left in two days.. so no big loss here 
:-)..but it does bring up the fact that we most, absolutely definitely 
need an RSVP system for attendance and food. I spent about $100 (maybe a 
bit more) but that included a good supply of paper plates, cups, 
napkins.. etc that I can reuse for future meetings.. I collected $45.. 
(actually more than I thought I'd collect) but there was quite a bit 
leftover so it wasn't a huge loss. It will help if we have an rsvp 
system in place so I know exactly who is or is not eating and can 
purchase accordingly..

I'd like to propose that we start the three lists as indicated.. 
baypiggies-announce.. etc.. but add one for the new website.. 
baypiggies-web .. so I can get feedback.. along with Paul McGavin (and 
anyone else who wants to help) on what we want/need on the new Plone CMS 
website in the works.

OK that's it from me for awhile.. won't be at ironport.. but I'll be 
avail offlist :-)

Donna M. Snow



 



From DennisR at dair.com  Fri May 12 18:04:02 2006
From: DennisR at dair.com (Dennis Reinhardt)
Date: Fri, 12 May 2006 09:04:02 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] ctypes presentation material online
In-Reply-To: <44643201.6000001@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20060512085910.00be9080@localhost>


I have now posted my ctypes presentation material online linked at 
http://www.spamai.com/present/  Format is zipped PDF, about 270 KB.

This is the same URL as given in the baypiggies.net website describing the 
talk so if you want to look this up later without saving this email, you 
can find it there.

The presentation posted contains material I did not discuss: prototypes for 
several useful functions.
------------------------------------
| Dennis    | DennisR at dair.com     |
| Reinhardt | Powerful Anti-Spam   |
| http://dair.com/py/planmeet.html |
------------------------------------


From marilyn at deliberate.com  Fri May 12 19:21:04 2006
From: marilyn at deliberate.com (Marilyn Davis)
Date: Fri, 12 May 2006 10:21:04 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Baypiggies] ctypes presentation material online
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20060512085910.00be9080@localhost>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0605121010240.22401-100000@localhost.localdomain>

On Fri, 12 May 2006, Dennis Reinhardt wrote:

> 
> I have now posted my ctypes presentation material online linked at 
> http://www.spamai.com/present/  Format is zipped PDF, about 270 KB.

Thank you Dennis.  That was an interesting little talk.  And you
started 1 minute late.  That was only because the first group of us
wasn't let in until 1 minute late.  You were ready!

(I'll also comment that Alex helped me find the bathroom, which was
close by, so I didn't miss very much.  AND the toilet seat was warm!
I never experienced anything so luxurious.  Shocking at first though.)

But, back to the talk, I particularly appreciate that you exposed the
big problem you had.  You defined something as 2-longs, and then used
it as 4-longs, crashing malloc like a C program.  Ouch.

You know, there's a whole industry devoted to finding that sort of bug
in C code, because it is so hard to find.  You're not really doing
python when things get that hard.

If you had it to do over again, would you use ctypes?  Or try one of
the other options, even though they take more memory?

Marilyn

> 
> This is the same URL as given in the baypiggies.net website describing the 
> talk so if you want to look this up later without saving this email, you 
> can find it there.
> 
> The presentation posted contains material I did not discuss: prototypes for 
> several useful functions.
> ------------------------------------
> | Dennis    | DennisR at dair.com     |
> | Reinhardt | Powerful Anti-Spam   |
> | http://dair.com/py/planmeet.html |
> ------------------------------------
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Baypiggies mailing list
> Baypiggies at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies
> 

-- 


From tungwaiyip at yahoo.com  Fri May 12 18:52:45 2006
From: tungwaiyip at yahoo.com (Tung Wai Yip)
Date: Fri, 12 May 2006 10:52:45 -0600
Subject: [Baypiggies] ctypes presentation material online
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20060512085910.00be9080@localhost>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20060512085910.00be9080@localhost>
Message-ID: <op.s9f897q2oiuain@smtp.mail.yahoo.com>

Couldn't make it to the meeting. Thanks for sharing the experience with  
ctype.

The risk of crashing seems so scary. Have you evaluated pywin32? I wonder  
how they compare in the context of your project.

Wai Yip

> I have now posted my ctypes presentation material online linked at
> http://www.spamai.com/present/  Format is zipped PDF, about 270 KB.
>
> This is the same URL as given in the baypiggies.net website describing  
> the
> talk so if you want to look this up later without saving this email, you
> can find it there.
>
> The presentation posted contains material I did not discuss: prototypes  
> for
> several useful functions.



From marilyn at deliberate.com  Fri May 12 20:12:00 2006
From: marilyn at deliberate.com (Marilyn Davis)
Date: Fri, 12 May 2006 11:12:00 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Baypiggies] ctypes presentation material online
In-Reply-To: <op.s9f897q2oiuain@smtp.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0605121105280.22401-100000@localhost.localdomain>

On Fri, 12 May 2006, Tung Wai Yip wrote:

> Couldn't make it to the meeting. Thanks for sharing the experience with  
> ctype.
> 
> The risk of crashing seems so scary. Have you evaluated pywin32? I wonder  

Yeh.  Memory bugs are just terrible to find.

I once had one in C code where I was mallocing space for a new string:

buf = malloc(len(string + 1));

My eyeball looked at that a jillion times before I realized that I had
a misplaced ')' and it should be:

buf = malloc(len(string) + 1);

The problem is that it crashed much later, after I wrote to the space
(and overwrote the memory), and then it finally crashed in another
call to malloc.  This is typical.  Between the bug and the crash were
many many instructions and many many times of writing into malloc'ed
space.

Anyhow, Python, I kiss your feet, for taking this stuff out of my life.

Marilyn



> how they compare in the context of your project.
> 
> Wai Yip
> 
> > I have now posted my ctypes presentation material online linked at
> > http://www.spamai.com/present/  Format is zipped PDF, about 270 KB.
> >
> > This is the same URL as given in the baypiggies.net website describing  
> > the
> > talk so if you want to look this up later without saving this email, you
> > can find it there.
> >
> > The presentation posted contains material I did not discuss: prototypes  
> > for
> > several useful functions.
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Baypiggies mailing list
> Baypiggies at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies
> 

-- 


From marilyn at deliberate.com  Fri May 12 20:14:39 2006
From: marilyn at deliberate.com (Marilyn Davis)
Date: Fri, 12 May 2006 11:14:39 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Baypiggies] ADMIN: reply-to-all?
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0605121112040.22401-100000@localhost.localdomain>

Python Folks,

I try to trim off all the cc's when I reply-to the list.  Am I making
a mistake?

Marilyn



From DennisR at dair.com  Fri May 12 20:27:25 2006
From: DennisR at dair.com (Dennis Reinhardt)
Date: Fri, 12 May 2006 11:27:25 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] ctypes presentation material online
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0605121010240.22401-100000@localhost.localdo main>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20060512085910.00be9080@localhost>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20060512105225.00beb088@localhost>

At 10:21 AM 5/12/2006, Marilyn Davis wrote:
>If you had it to do over again, would you use ctypes?  Or try one of
>the other options, even though they take more memory?

Tough question, because memory is but one part of the tradeoff.

First, let me say that what I am doing is building a ready-to-run program, 
an exe which when run, well, just runs.  This is in contrast to other 
deployments where you first need to install Python and a number of other 
components first.  BitTorrent install IIRC is of this type, for example.

Adding other components can greatly complicate the user install.  There is 
a major cost borne by the end user in how well integrated the components 
are.  Adding more components creates problems beyond just download 
size.  In order to be ready-to-run, you need some scheme for finding 
components you have installed which does not conflict with any Python 
components the user may have installed already.  I solve this by altering 
sys.path at startup.  I would have to include additional components and 
know that there are compatible with this (i.e. that they can operate 
independent of registry settings).

I never got far enough with WxPython to see if this was a problem.  There 
is a major learning curve.

I also had a learning curve implementing DialogDevil (my program) with 
ctypes.  Even with the 40-50 hours I spent tracking down the crash and the 
learning curve with ctypes itself (non-trivial), I would still write 
DialogDevil using this approach.  Here is why:

         I could be reasonably assured I would not have
         packaging and deployment issues downstream

         I could be assured that the entire non-COM
         Windows API was available to me and that I
         would not get stuck late in the project because
         some interface was missing or not usable.

         The simple functionality was manageable.  I
         could isolate problems with ctypes.  With more
        complex packages, my support burden for
        isolating problems is increased.

         The download size was a very nice bonus.

However, in a larger sense, no, I have not done it again.  Currently, I am 
using a web-browser as a user interface.  The idea here is that I have 
written an http server and user interactions are via web forms.  In so 
doing, I get client-server architecture nearly for free with an obvious 
upgrade to multi-user implementations.    This is not a benefit for 
DialogDevil type products but is compelling for others.

Regards, Dennis


----------------------------------
| Dennis    | DennisR at dair.com   |
| Reinhardt | Powerful Anti-Spam |
----------------------------------


From jjinux at gmail.com  Fri May 12 20:38:53 2006
From: jjinux at gmail.com (Shannon -jj Behrens)
Date: Fri, 12 May 2006 11:38:53 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] tonights meeting - (my feelings won't be hurt if
	you delete)
In-Reply-To: <44643201.6000001@gmail.com>
References: <44643201.6000001@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <c41f67b90605121138r6eb5d3bbvcb4f54fcf47b93b0@mail.gmail.com>

> I'd like to propose that we start the three lists as indicated..
> baypiggies-announce.. etc.. but add one for the new website..
> baypiggies-web .. so I can get feedback ...

Stephen, Dennis, and I were talking about a baypiggies-announce
mailing list.  We reached concensus that a baypiggies-announce mailing
list is an absolute must for people who don't want to deal with the
huge amount of traffic on the mailing list.

Aahz, who can do this?  Do you object strongly?

Best Regards,
-jj

From marilyn at deliberate.com  Fri May 12 20:48:24 2006
From: marilyn at deliberate.com (Marilyn Davis)
Date: Fri, 12 May 2006 11:48:24 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Baypiggies] ctypes presentation material online
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20060512105225.00beb088@localhost>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0605121143000.22401-100000@localhost.localdomain>

On Fri, 12 May 2006, Dennis Reinhardt wrote:

> At 10:21 AM 5/12/2006, Marilyn Davis wrote:
> >If you had it to do over again, would you use ctypes?  Or try one of
> >the other options, even though they take more memory?
> 
> Tough question, because memory is but one part of the tradeoff.
> 
> First, let me say that what I am doing is building a ready-to-run program, 
> an exe which when run, well, just runs.  This is in contrast to other 
> deployments where you first need to install Python and a number of other 
> components first.  BitTorrent install IIRC is of this type, for example.
> 

I see.

What about C for this?  I mean since you're looking for a ready-to-run
and you have to deal with typing and be careful about memory anyway?

I guess that's a huge learning curve if you don't know it already.

Maybe sticking to Python and reaching back to C through ctypes is
still faster to develop than a total C solution.  With C, you'd have
to worry about memory for every piece of it you use.

> Adding other components can greatly complicate the user install.  There is 
> a major cost borne by the end user in how well integrated the components 
> are.  Adding more components creates problems beyond just download 
> size.  In order to be ready-to-run, you need some scheme for finding 
> components you have installed which does not conflict with any Python 
> components the user may have installed already.  I solve this by altering 
> sys.path at startup.  I would have to include additional components and 
> know that there are compatible with this (i.e. that they can operate 
> independent of registry settings).
> 
> I never got far enough with WxPython to see if this was a problem.  There 
> is a major learning curve.
> 
> I also had a learning curve implementing DialogDevil (my program) with 
> ctypes.  Even with the 40-50 hours I spent tracking down the crash and the 
> learning curve with ctypes itself (non-trivial), I would still write 
> DialogDevil using this approach.  Here is why:
> 
>          I could be reasonably assured I would not have
>          packaging and deployment issues downstream
> 
>          I could be assured that the entire non-COM
>          Windows API was available to me and that I
>          would not get stuck late in the project because
>          some interface was missing or not usable.
> 
>          The simple functionality was manageable.  I
>          could isolate problems with ctypes.  With more
>         complex packages, my support burden for
>         isolating problems is increased.
> 
>          The download size was a very nice bonus.
> 
> However, in a larger sense, no, I have not done it again.  Currently, I am 
> using a web-browser as a user interface.  The idea here is that I have 
> written an http server and user interactions are via web forms.  In so 
> doing, I get client-server architecture nearly for free with an obvious 
> upgrade to multi-user implementations.    This is not a benefit for 
> DialogDevil type products but is compelling for others.

Thank you so much Dennis.  This is valuable insight for us.

Marilyn

> 
> Regards, Dennis
> 
> 
> ----------------------------------
> | Dennis    | DennisR at dair.com   |
> | Reinhardt | Powerful Anti-Spam |
> ----------------------------------
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Baypiggies mailing list
> Baypiggies at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies
> 

-- 


From aahz at pythoncraft.com  Fri May 12 20:50:29 2006
From: aahz at pythoncraft.com (Aahz)
Date: Fri, 12 May 2006 11:50:29 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] ADMIN: reply-to-all?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0605121112040.22401-100000@localhost.localdomain>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0605121112040.22401-100000@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <20060512185029.GA14919@panix.com>

On Fri, May 12, 2006, Marilyn Davis wrote:
> 
> I try to trim off all the cc's when I reply-to the list.  Am I making
> a mistake?

Not at all -- you'll notice I do the same thing.  The list is set to
prevent excessive cc's (I think the total number of permitted addresses
is five), so eventually someone will need to trim....

You can prevent some annoyance by changing your list settings to prevent
the list from sending an extra copy of messages that you're cc'd on.
-- 
Aahz (aahz at pythoncraft.com)           <*>         http://www.pythoncraft.com/

"Argue for your limitations, and sure enough they're yours."  --Richard Bach

From spmcinerney at hotmail.com  Fri May 12 21:05:14 2006
From: spmcinerney at hotmail.com (Stephen McInerney)
Date: Fri, 12 May 2006 12:05:14 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] ctypes presentation material online
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0605121105280.22401-100000@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <BAY103-F408C13D599AD8ADF7777A2A0AC0@phx.gbl>


The case below is a good argument for static type checking?
Is there any type checker smart enough to understand that
string + 1 is unlikely to have semantic meaning.
(I know this is C but the concept is generic.)

>From: Marilyn Davis <marilyn at deliberate.com>
>
>Yeh.  Memory bugs are just terrible to find.
>
>I once had one in C code where I was mallocing space for a new string:
>
>buf = malloc(len(string + 1));
>
>My eyeball looked at that a jillion times before I realized that I had
>a misplaced ')' and it should be:
>
>buf = malloc(len(string) + 1);
>
>The problem is that it crashed much later, after I wrote to the space
>(and overwrote the memory), and then it finally crashed in another
>call to malloc.



From DennisR at dair.com  Fri May 12 21:14:08 2006
From: DennisR at dair.com (Dennis Reinhardt)
Date: Fri, 12 May 2006 12:14:08 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] ctypes presentation material online
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0605121143000.22401-100000@localhost.localdo main>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20060512105225.00beb088@localhost>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20060512115332.00bea468@localhost>

At 11:48 AM 5/12/2006, you wrote:
>What about C for this?  I mean since you're looking for a ready-to-run
>and you have to deal with typing and be careful about memory anyway?
>I guess that's a huge learning curve if you don't know it already.

The phase of the program I discussed was in the initialization, where there 
are no real reasons to choose Python over C.

I have written and still use my own native exe compiler for my own PLD2 
language (another l-o-ng talk?).  Suffice it to say, learning curve for a 
compiled program is not a problem.  Memory is not an issue since PLD2 
memory is laid out statically.

I could do C and have done some modest coding with it.  It is impossible to 
program for Windows without being able to constantly read C.  I am not fond 
of the typing.  Over 95% of types are 32 bit integers.  More than once, the 
correct response to a type error is to cast the type (i.e. ignore).

I could use typing in ctypes but I didn't so I don't have to deal with typing.

------------------------------------
| Dennis    | DennisR at dair.com     |
| Reinhardt | Powerful Anti-Spam   |
| http://dair.com/py/planmeet.html |
------------------------------------


From DennisR at dair.com  Fri May 12 21:11:45 2006
From: DennisR at dair.com (Dennis Reinhardt)
Date: Fri, 12 May 2006 12:11:45 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] ctypes presentation material online
In-Reply-To: <op.s9f897q2oiuain@smtp.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20060512085910.00be9080@localhost>
	<5.1.0.14.0.20060512085910.00be9080@localhost>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20060512120408.00bea468@localhost>

At 09:52 AM 5/12/2006, Tung Wai Yip wrote:
>The risk of crashing seems so scary. Have you evaluated pywin32? I wonder
>how they compare in the context of your project.

I knew of pywin32.  More than anything, I needed access to the list 
control.  This is a very complicated object whose printed documentation 
amounts to about 200 pages.

I didn't see a lot of benefit in a wrapper for such a complex object.  IMO, 
I really needed to talk to it directly.

I recently investigated writing a COM object.  I might look at pywin32 for 
that.  However, the author of ctypes (Thomas Heller) is in development of 
comtypes and I looked at that first.  I have suspended the COM project 
because it is clear to me that the overall scope is beyond what a 1 person 
company can bring to market.



----------------------------------
| Dennis    | DennisR at dair.com   |
| Reinhardt | Powerful Anti-Spam |
----------------------------------


From marilyn at deliberate.com  Fri May 12 21:21:00 2006
From: marilyn at deliberate.com (Marilyn Davis)
Date: Fri, 12 May 2006 12:21:00 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Baypiggies] ctypes presentation material online
In-Reply-To: <BAY103-F408C13D599AD8ADF7777A2A0AC0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0605121213520.22401-100000@localhost.localdomain>

On Fri, 12 May 2006, Stephen McInerney wrote:

> 
> The case below is a good argument for static type checking?
> Is there any type checker smart enough to understand that
> string + 1 is unlikely to have semantic meaning.

Good thought.

But although it is unlikely, it is entirely possible.  string + 1 in C
is string[1:] in Python.  It trims off the first character.

string is defined as a char *, which is the address of the first
character.  All string processing is convention, not a built-in data
type.  The string is assumed to reside at the memory address in
contiguous bytes until there is a '\0', marking the end.  That is why
it takes strlen(string + 1) to malloc memory for it: the length of the
string plus one byte for that '\0' flag to mark the end.

And that is why, string + 1, which is the address of the second
character, is string[1:].

When I teach C, I encourage students memorize only 3 things:

1.  The point of a programming language is to communicate with other
engineers that the computer also understands.

2.  The name of an array is shorthand for the address of the first
element of the array.

3.  A string is an array of characters with a '\0' at the end.

2 and 3 are very hard.

Teaching Python, they only get #1.

I love it.

Marilyn

> (I know this is C but the concept is generic.)
> 
> >From: Marilyn Davis <marilyn at deliberate.com>
> >
> >Yeh.  Memory bugs are just terrible to find.
> >
> >I once had one in C code where I was mallocing space for a new string:
> >
> >buf = malloc(len(string + 1));
> >
> >My eyeball looked at that a jillion times before I realized that I had
> >a misplaced ')' and it should be:
> >
> >buf = malloc(len(string) + 1);
> >
> >The problem is that it crashed much later, after I wrote to the space
> >(and overwrote the memory), and then it finally crashed in another
> >call to malloc.
> 
> 
> 

-- 


From marilyn at deliberate.com  Fri May 12 21:40:17 2006
From: marilyn at deliberate.com (Marilyn Davis)
Date: Fri, 12 May 2006 12:40:17 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Baypiggies] [OT] IronPort Blacklists Google
In-Reply-To: <4463AC02.9090103@ulmcnett.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0605121234400.22401-100000@localhost.localdomain>

On Thu, 11 May 2006, Paul McNett wrote:

> I noticed that my mailserver was rejecting some incoming messages from 
> gmail users, and then realized that IronPort may be involved in the 
> blocking:
> 
> http://www.spamcop.net/w3m?action=checkblock&ip=66.249.92.169
> 
> At the time of this posting, I get a page that says:
> 
> 66.249.92.169 listed in bl.spamcop.net (127.0.0.2)
> [snip]
> 
> If you are the administrator of ug-out-1314.google.com and you are sure 
> it will not be the subject of any more reports of spam, you may cause 
> the system to be delisted without waiting for us to review the issue.
> 
> [snip]
> In the past 29.9 days, it has been listed 7 times for a total of 3.3 days
> Other hosts in this "neighborhood" with spam reports
> 66.249.92.168 66.249.92.170 66.249.92.171 66.249.92.172 66.249.92.173 
> 66.249.92.174 66.249.92.175
> [snip]
> Copyright (C) 1998-2005, IronPort Systems, Inc. All rights reserved
> [snip]
> 
> I only post this here because I thought it interesting that there is 
> another connection, besides meeting locations, between the two 
> companies. Sorry if it is considered clutter by some.
> 
> I presume that someone malicious is submitting gmail addresses to cause 
> trouble, not that IronPort or Google are at direct fault.

No, but it does show how vulnerable all ip's, i.e., all of us, are to
attack via blacklists.

I note that deliberate.com is still blacklisted by Paul's
intersight.com system, even though I went to the url and filled in the
form long ago, and, even though there can not be any legitimate claims
of spam against deliberate.com.  

Blacklisting is not a good idea.

Or, if you want to use a blacklist, use it for an additional piece of
information to factor into your heuristic, not as a sole reason for
blocking mail.

OK.  I'll try to be quiet now and do my work.

Marilyn


> 
> 

-- 


From donnamsnow at gmail.com  Fri May 12 20:48:43 2006
From: donnamsnow at gmail.com (Donna M. Snow)
Date: Fri, 12 May 2006 11:48:43 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] New website: input please
Message-ID: <4464D88B.3030701@gmail.com>

Hi,

My plan is to start developing the new website.. here .... 
http://www.baypiggies.net/zope/pr...

What types of modules/packages/products do you think we need? (per usual 
message me offline on this please :-))

Here are the ones I think we can make good use of....

Forum (carpool, mentor/mentee section, help needed with the website, new 
technologies to share - discuss, etc)
Blog (Aazh, Wes, Alex? Guest bloggers? we could feed Guido's blog 
through RSS maybe? see here..(http://planet.plone.org/)
Calendar (community one where we could all add a pythonic event.. 
doesn't necessarily have to be a baypiggies one.. only members of the 
site can post to the calendar.. so no trolls)
Photo Album (I HATE having my picture took.. blech.. but I think a good 
group site has the ability to share photos with each other..of events 
we've attended, etc )
FAQ (most definitely needed here)
Search (already a part of Plone core)

Groups are part of Plone so we can maybe setup SIG's online .. for 
example.. those really interested in IronPython could be part of the 
IronPython group within the baypiggies site and share information with 
each other.. in their group directory.

There is a massive amount of potential for building an active python 
community online we just need to pinpoint which is most critical to the 
group as a whole. All site members have the potential for (if we want to 
allow it) a member area of their own where they can upload files, create 
pages (through a wysiwyg interface) and share with other members of the 
site (and visitors) ...

If you are interested in participating in development of the new site 
please let me know and I'll make sure you are cc'd on web dev conversations.

Donna







From ken at seehart.com  Fri May 12 23:18:31 2006
From: ken at seehart.com (Ken Seehart)
Date: Fri, 12 May 2006 14:18:31 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] ctypes presentation material online
In-Reply-To: <BAY103-F408C13D599AD8ADF7777A2A0AC0@phx.gbl>
References: <BAY103-F408C13D599AD8ADF7777A2A0AC0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <4464FBA7.3090905@seehart.com>

Unfortunately there is nothing wrong with the expression string + 1.  
It's just pointer arithmatic.
If string is a char *, then string+1 is that string with the first 
character ommitted (hence one character /shorter/ than the original string).

The problem below doesn't have a clear analogy in python.  And static 
type checking in python would not pertain to any analogous problem in 
python.  Everything about this kind of problem is very language specific.

I'm actually a bit of a skeptic of the idea of using static type 
checking in python.  In practice it is rarely possible to obtain /any/ 
reliable type information on objects at compile time in python.

- Ken

Stephen McInerney wrote:

>The case below is a good argument for static type checking?
>Is there any type checker smart enough to understand that
>string + 1 is unlikely to have semantic meaning.
>(I know this is C but the concept is generic.)
>
>  
>
>>From: Marilyn Davis <marilyn at deliberate.com>
>>
>>Yeh.  Memory bugs are just terrible to find.
>>
>>I once had one in C code where I was mallocing space for a new string:
>>
>>buf = malloc(len(string + 1));
>>
>>My eyeball looked at that a jillion times before I realized that I had
>>a misplaced ')' and it should be:
>>
>>buf = malloc(len(string) + 1);
>>
>>The problem is that it crashed much later, after I wrote to the space
>>(and overwrote the memory), and then it finally crashed in another
>>call to malloc.
>>    
>>
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>Baypiggies mailing list
>Baypiggies at python.org
>http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies
>
>
>  
>

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From spmcinerney at hotmail.com  Fri May 12 23:47:50 2006
From: spmcinerney at hotmail.com (Stephen McInerney)
Date: Fri, 12 May 2006 14:47:50 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] ctypes presentation material online
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0605121213520.22401-100000@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <BAY103-F944075C8F86AAF37080BBA0AC0@phx.gbl>

Hi Marilyn,

(Sure, most people have fond experiences of debugging in C/C++, a language 
where weakly typed pointer arithmetic plus implicit type conversions gives 
you enough rope to hang yourself a thousand times over.
Before I settled on Python in the year 2000, one of my motivations was 
avoiding C pointer debugging andn memory management. In fact my formative 
evangelizing experience in finally deciding to go to Python was a 
frustrating 2 months attempting to use CompuWare Boundschecker (overpriced 
at $499, underfeatured and brain-dead) on some memory leaks in some of my 
MSEE project code under a tight deadline and getting nowhere fast. Never 
again.)

My point in this case is that although 'len (str + 1)' is syntactically 
legal, if you had any sort of heuristic in a type checker, it would flag 
'str + 1' as being semantically dubious (it might be legal, but then it 
might not be, so it merits closer scrutiny).
I know exactly what the C effect of len(str + 1) will be: you'll undercount 
the length of the string by 1, which is a creeping bug, (unless *str == 
'\0', in which case you get a stray pointer and a nonsense length, then you 
get a blatant bug).
The problem here is that the language types and the compiler do not 
discriminate between length, length + 1 being  integers, whereas str, str + 
1 are addresses - it's all represented by 32bits. It would be interesting to 
see a heuristic chart of the probability that each of different types of 
pointer arithmetic are semantically correct.

I've used and scripted linters in several languages (C, Verilog) in 
production flows and a key lesson I learned is to search for and flag not 
just the outright illegal stuff, but the dubious stuff. Intermediate 
variables, explicit casts and/or linter pragmas are a good practice (in 
moderation).

Static type checking is neat, and if done across language wrapper boundaries 
could be even neater.  I think this is a topic of potential interest to a 
lot of people? (GUI folks too, for sure)
Wrapping Fortran libraries seems to be pretty similarly painful (e.g. 
Jeffrey Whitaker's NAGpy 
http://www.cdc.noaa.gov/people/jeffrey.s.whitaker/python/nagpy/

Stephen



From aahz at pythoncraft.com  Sat May 13 00:20:18 2006
From: aahz at pythoncraft.com (Aahz)
Date: Fri, 12 May 2006 15:20:18 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] Splitting the list
In-Reply-To: <c41f67b90605101649l6c58d08fxcb794969f2bc7b7b@mail.gmail.com>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0605101457030.7746@hkn.eecs.berkeley.edu>
	<BAY103-F3005E9974B3EE7FF75421EA0AE0@phx.gbl>
	<c41f67b90605101649l6c58d08fxcb794969f2bc7b7b@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20060512222017.GA12516@panix.com>

On Wed, May 10, 2006, Shannon -jj Behrens wrote:
>
> +1 to the idea of baypiggies-announce, baypiggies-discussion, and
> baypiggies-jobs.

I really don't have time for this, but since I'm getting bugged in
private e-mail, I think it is still premature to create new lists.
Historically, the baypiggies list gets a handful of posts per week, and
the overhead of managing multiple lists IMO isn't worth it (both for
individual people and for the list admins).

Side note: I find it interesting that people are more interested in
debating subjects like this than in responding to two separate
suggestions for the June meeting.
-- 
Aahz (aahz at pythoncraft.com)           <*>         http://www.pythoncraft.com/

"Argue for your limitations, and sure enough they're yours."  --Richard Bach

From DennisR at dair.com  Sat May 13 00:36:14 2006
From: DennisR at dair.com (Dennis Reinhardt)
Date: Fri, 12 May 2006 15:36:14 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] Splitting the list
In-Reply-To: <20060512222017.GA12516@panix.com>
References: <c41f67b90605101649l6c58d08fxcb794969f2bc7b7b@mail.gmail.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.0605101457030.7746@hkn.eecs.berkeley.edu>
	<BAY103-F3005E9974B3EE7FF75421EA0AE0@phx.gbl>
	<c41f67b90605101649l6c58d08fxcb794969f2bc7b7b@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20060512153351.00bfd270@localhost>

At 03:20 PM 5/12/2006, Aahz wrote:
>Side note: I find it interesting that people are more interested in
>debating subjects like this than in responding to two separate
>suggestions for the June meeting.

I have followed up via private email to both suggestion and am in the 
process of putting the meeting together right now.

We also have an opportunity to hold a Joint meeting in June.

------------------------------------
| Dennis    | DennisR at dair.com     |
| Reinhardt | Powerful Anti-Spam   |
| http://dair.com/py/planmeet.html |
------------------------------------


From p at ulmcnett.com  Sat May 13 00:53:33 2006
From: p at ulmcnett.com (Paul McNett)
Date: Fri, 12 May 2006 15:53:33 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] [OT] IronPort Blacklists Google
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0605121234400.22401-100000@localhost.localdomain>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0605121234400.22401-100000@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <446511ED.8050402@ulmcnett.com>

Marilyn Davis wrote:
> On Thu, 11 May 2006, Paul McNett wrote:
>> I only post this here because I thought it interesting that there is 
>> another connection, besides meeting locations, between the two 
>> companies. Sorry if it is considered clutter by some.
>>
>> I presume that someone malicious is submitting gmail addresses to cause 
>> trouble, not that IronPort or Google are at direct fault.
> 
> No, but it does show how vulnerable all ip's, i.e., all of us, are to
> attack via blacklists.

Yes it does.


> I note that deliberate.com is still blacklisted by Paul's
> intersight.com system, even though I went to the url and filled in the
> form long ago, and, even though there can not be any legitimate claims
> of spam against deliberate.com.  
> 
> Blacklisting is not a good idea.

I think it is a good idea in that it makes mail server administrators 
more careful regarding the mail they relay. If you run a mailserver for 
many businesses and individuals, and one individual's email can result 
in your whole server getting blacklisted, then you are going to make 
damn sure you do some automated checking of outgoing email, or all your 
users could move elsewhere.

But in general, black/white absolutes are certainly evil.


> Or, if you want to use a blacklist, use it for an additional piece of
> information to factor into your heuristic, not as a sole reason for
> blocking mail.

I've changed my incoming rules to add 1.5 to the Spam score if the 
sender is blacklisted, instead of rejecting the mail out of hand like I 
was doing before.

-- 
Paul McNett
http://paulmcnett.com
http://dabodev.com


From mac at Wireless.Com  Sat May 13 01:06:51 2006
From: mac at Wireless.Com (Mike Cheponis)
Date: Fri, 12 May 2006 16:06:51 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Baypiggies] Splitting the list
In-Reply-To: <20060512222017.GA12516@panix.com>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0605101457030.7746@hkn.eecs.berkeley.edu>
	<BAY103-F3005E9974B3EE7FF75421EA0AE0@phx.gbl>
	<c41f67b90605101649l6c58d08fxcb794969f2bc7b7b@mail.gmail.com>
	<20060512222017.GA12516@panix.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.NEB.4.64.0605121601040.29886@S.culver.net>

Hi,

I'll be happy to host the other lists on my servers if that's a problem.

Also, at the meeting last night, Stephen's excellent synopsis of membership, it is clear this group is growing exponentially.

That would seem to suggest that historical trends will not be especially relevant.

-Mike



On Fri, 12 May 2006, Aahz wrote:

> Date: Fri, 12 May 2006 15:20:18 -0700
> From: Aahz <aahz at pythoncraft.com>
> To: baypiggies at python.org
> Subject: Re: [Baypiggies] Splitting the list
> 
> On Wed, May 10, 2006, Shannon -jj Behrens wrote:

>> +1 to the idea of baypiggies-announce, baypiggies-discussion, and
>> baypiggies-jobs.

> I really don't have time for this, but since I'm getting bugged in
> private e-mail, I think it is still premature to create new lists.
> Historically, the baypiggies list gets a handful of posts per week, and
> the overhead of managing multiple lists IMO isn't worth it (both for
> individual people and for the list admins).
>
> Side note: I find it interesting that people are more interested in
> debating subjects like this than in responding to two separate
> suggestions for the June meeting.

Wouldn't this be better if we had -discuss  and -announce?

-announce could contain suggestions for future meetings, so perhaps it's -meetings ?

So maybe there are 4 lists:  -announce -meetings -discuss -jobs

From DennisR at dair.com  Sat May 13 01:28:31 2006
From: DennisR at dair.com (Dennis Reinhardt)
Date: Fri, 12 May 2006 16:28:31 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] Splitting the list
In-Reply-To: <Pine.NEB.4.64.0605121601040.29886@S.culver.net>
References: <20060512222017.GA12516@panix.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.0605101457030.7746@hkn.eecs.berkeley.edu>
	<BAY103-F3005E9974B3EE7FF75421EA0AE0@phx.gbl>
	<c41f67b90605101649l6c58d08fxcb794969f2bc7b7b@mail.gmail.com>
	<20060512222017.GA12516@panix.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20060512162032.00bf4dc8@localhost>

At 04:06 PM 5/12/2006, Mike Cheponis wrote:
>Hi,
>
>I'll be happy to host the other lists on my servers if that's a problem.

I don't have technical experience (or any immediate inclination to learn) 
for setting up news group lists.  My guess is the list is hosted on 
python.org.  Perhaps they can host the lists so that hosting is not the 
limiter.  If python.org is not available, your generous offer sounds great.

The limiter appears to be that we have a single mailing list admin and he 
is too busy/not inclined to set up a separate list.  This seems to be a 
people problem, not a server problem.

What we need is a knowledgeable volunteer, ideally more than one, so no one 
is overwhelmed.
------------------------------------
| Dennis    | DennisR at dair.com     |
| Reinhardt | Powerful Anti-Spam   |
| http://dair.com/py/planmeet.html |
------------------------------------


From aahz at pythoncraft.com  Sat May 13 02:52:56 2006
From: aahz at pythoncraft.com (Aahz)
Date: Fri, 12 May 2006 17:52:56 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] Splitting the list
In-Reply-To: <Pine.NEB.4.64.0605121601040.29886@S.culver.net>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0605101457030.7746@hkn.eecs.berkeley.edu>
	<BAY103-F3005E9974B3EE7FF75421EA0AE0@phx.gbl>
	<c41f67b90605101649l6c58d08fxcb794969f2bc7b7b@mail.gmail.com>
	<20060512222017.GA12516@panix.com>
	<Pine.NEB.4.64.0605121601040.29886@S.culver.net>
Message-ID: <20060513005256.GA12251@panix.com>

On Fri, May 12, 2006, Mike Cheponis wrote:
>
> I'll be happy to host the other lists on my servers if that's a problem.

The lists are hosted on python.org -- the issue is more about the
bandwidth of administration, plus the bandwidth for individual people of
tracking multiple mailing lists.  Over the years, I've seen many
complaints about splitting (in other contexts), often after the fact.

> Also, at the meeting last night, Stephen's excellent synopsis of
> membership, it is clear this group is growing exponentially.

The group may be, but list traffic does not necessarily track group size.
So far, aside from long threads from people wanting to change things,
there really has not been a significant increase in traffic.

But, hey, some people have suggested that people who don't go to
meetings shouldn't have a say, so maybe it's time that I just let the
people who want to change things do it all their way.
-- 
Aahz (aahz at pythoncraft.com)           <*>         http://www.pythoncraft.com/

"Argue for your limitations, and sure enough they're yours."  --Richard Bach

From dyoo at hkn.eecs.berkeley.edu  Sat May 13 02:56:41 2006
From: dyoo at hkn.eecs.berkeley.edu (Danny Yoo)
Date: Fri, 12 May 2006 17:56:41 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Baypiggies] [OT] IronPort Blacklists Google
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0605121234400.22401-100000@localhost.localdomain>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0605121234400.22401-100000@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0605121750440.28670@hkn.eecs.berkeley.edu>

>> I presume that someone malicious is submitting gmail addresses to cause 
>> trouble, not that IronPort or Google are at direct fault.
>
> No, but it does show how vulnerable all ip's, i.e., all of us, are to 
> attack via blacklists.
>
> I note that deliberate.com is still blacklisted by Paul's intersight.com 
> system, even though I went to the url and filled in the form long ago, 
> and, even though there can not be any legitimate claims of spam against 
> deliberate.com.
>
> Blacklisting is not a good idea.

Hi Marilyn,

I also wanted to add that this issue heavily affects Stanford too, enough 
so that they've had to write a FAQ about it:

     http://www.stanford.edu/services/email/antispam/blacklist.html

When I was working at Carnegie, SpamCop often blocked us enough that it 
was causing some major headaches.  I agree with you: the problem is that 
some email admins depend solely on a blacklist, which ends up a fragile 
solution to spam.

From DennisR at dair.com  Sat May 13 04:38:13 2006
From: DennisR at dair.com (Dennis Reinhardt)
Date: Fri, 12 May 2006 19:38:13 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] Splitting the list
In-Reply-To: <20060513005256.GA12251@panix.com>
References: <Pine.NEB.4.64.0605121601040.29886@S.culver.net>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.0605101457030.7746@hkn.eecs.berkeley.edu>
	<BAY103-F3005E9974B3EE7FF75421EA0AE0@phx.gbl>
	<c41f67b90605101649l6c58d08fxcb794969f2bc7b7b@mail.gmail.com>
	<20060512222017.GA12516@panix.com>
	<Pine.NEB.4.64.0605121601040.29886@S.culver.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20060512192118.00beed00@localhost>

At 05:52 PM 5/12/2006, Aahz wrote:
>But, hey, some people have suggested that people who don't go to
>meetings shouldn't have a say,

For what happens in the meetings, the constituency which matters most is 
who attends (or potentially attends) the meeting.  For the list itself, 
list subscribers and participants matter most.  There is some sharing but 
these are not the same set of people and their needs may differ.


>so maybe it's time that I just let the
>people who want to change things do it all their way.

Your call, of course.  If an announce list is to be set up, we need a 
volunteer to step forward, set this up on python.org, and ideally moderate it.
------------------------------------
| Dennis    | DennisR at dair.com     |
| Reinhardt | Powerful Anti-Spam   |
| http://dair.com/py/planmeet.html |
------------------------------------


From jjinux at gmail.com  Sat May 13 05:24:48 2006
From: jjinux at gmail.com (Shannon -jj Behrens)
Date: Fri, 12 May 2006 20:24:48 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] Splitting the list
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20060512192118.00beed00@localhost>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0605101457030.7746@hkn.eecs.berkeley.edu>
	<BAY103-F3005E9974B3EE7FF75421EA0AE0@phx.gbl>
	<c41f67b90605101649l6c58d08fxcb794969f2bc7b7b@mail.gmail.com>
	<20060512222017.GA12516@panix.com>
	<Pine.NEB.4.64.0605121601040.29886@S.culver.net>
	<20060513005256.GA12251@panix.com>
	<5.1.0.14.0.20060512192118.00beed00@localhost>
Message-ID: <c41f67b90605122024s766d6a8weabe54b7646537d5@mail.gmail.com>

I just don't get it.  It can't be this hard!  I've setup like 10
mailing lists in mailman at work.  I'm happy to moderate.  I'm just
failing to see a real problem here.

-jj

On 5/12/06, Dennis Reinhardt <DennisR at dair.com> wrote:
> At 05:52 PM 5/12/2006, Aahz wrote:
> >But, hey, some people have suggested that people who don't go to
> >meetings shouldn't have a say,
>
> For what happens in the meetings, the constituency which matters most is
> who attends (or potentially attends) the meeting.  For the list itself,
> list subscribers and participants matter most.  There is some sharing but
> these are not the same set of people and their needs may differ.
>
>
> >so maybe it's time that I just let the
> >people who want to change things do it all their way.
>
> Your call, of course.  If an announce list is to be set up, we need a
> volunteer to step forward, set this up on python.org, and ideally moderate it.
> ------------------------------------
> | Dennis    | DennisR at dair.com     |
> | Reinhardt | Powerful Anti-Spam   |
> | http://dair.com/py/planmeet.html |
> ------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> Baypiggies mailing list
> Baypiggies at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies
>

From jjinux at gmail.com  Sat May 13 05:43:22 2006
From: jjinux at gmail.com (Shannon -jj Behrens)
Date: Fri, 12 May 2006 20:43:22 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] New website: input please
In-Reply-To: <4464D88B.3030701@gmail.com>
References: <4464D88B.3030701@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <c41f67b90605122043v56bddd88jeadb19d11d470352@mail.gmail.com>

On 5/12/06, Donna M. Snow <donnamsnow at gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi,
>
> My plan is to start developing the new website.. here ....
> http://www.baypiggies.net/zope/pr...
>
> What types of modules/packages/products do you think we need? (per usual
> message me offline on this please :-))
>
> Here are the ones I think we can make good use of....
>
> Forum (carpool, mentor/mentee section, help needed with the website, new
> technologies to share - discuss, etc)
> Blog (Aazh, Wes, Alex? Guest bloggers? we could feed Guido's blog
> through RSS maybe? see here..(http://planet.plone.org/)
> Calendar (community one where we could all add a pythonic event..
> doesn't necessarily have to be a baypiggies one.. only members of the
> site can post to the calendar.. so no trolls)
> Photo Album (I HATE having my picture took.. blech.. but I think a good
> group site has the ability to share photos with each other..of events
> we've attended, etc )
> FAQ (most definitely needed here)
> Search (already a part of Plone core)
>
> Groups are part of Plone so we can maybe setup SIG's online .. for
> example.. those really interested in IronPython could be part of the
> IronPython group within the baypiggies site and share information with
> each other.. in their group directory.
>
> There is a massive amount of potential for building an active python
> community online we just need to pinpoint which is most critical to the
> group as a whole. All site members have the potential for (if we want to
> allow it) a member area of their own where they can upload files, create
> pages (through a wysiwyg interface) and share with other members of the
> site (and visitors) ...
>
> If you are interested in participating in development of the new site
> please let me know and I'll make sure you are cc'd on web dev conversations.

This is just my $0.02, but I think you should keep it simple.  I care
about the meetings and interesting content on the mailing list.  We
need not create a walled garden version of the entire Python world.

Again, that's just my $0.02.

Happy Hacking!
-jj

From DennisR at dair.com  Sat May 13 06:46:21 2006
From: DennisR at dair.com (Dennis Reinhardt)
Date: Fri, 12 May 2006 21:46:21 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] Splitting the list
In-Reply-To: <c41f67b90605122024s766d6a8weabe54b7646537d5@mail.gmail.com
 >
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20060512192118.00beed00@localhost>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.0605101457030.7746@hkn.eecs.berkeley.edu>
	<BAY103-F3005E9974B3EE7FF75421EA0AE0@phx.gbl>
	<c41f67b90605101649l6c58d08fxcb794969f2bc7b7b@mail.gmail.com>
	<20060512222017.GA12516@panix.com>
	<Pine.NEB.4.64.0605121601040.29886@S.culver.net>
	<20060513005256.GA12251@panix.com>
	<5.1.0.14.0.20060512192118.00beed00@localhost>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20060512213511.00bee3f0@localhost>

At 08:24 PM 5/12/2006, Shannon -jj Behrens wrote:
>I just don't get it.  It can't be this hard!  I've setup like 10
>mailing lists in mailman at work.  I'm happy to moderate.  I'm just
>failing to see a real problem here.

A volunteer!  I don't think we have a problem any more.

Great...
----------------------------------
| Dennis    | DennisR at dair.com   |
| Reinhardt | Powerful Anti-Spam |
----------------------------------


From mech422 at gmail.com  Thu May 18 00:59:13 2006
From: mech422 at gmail.com (steve hindle)
Date: Wed, 17 May 2006 15:59:13 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] Python Logging Module
Message-ID: <9a0545880605171559m5c211f67jf822e28b77aa760@mail.gmail.com>

Hi all,

  I have a couple of problems with the 'logging' module in the python
stdlib, and was wondering if anyone knew of a 'better' logging module?
 Specifically, I have the following problems:

1.) lack of "(func)" tag for inserting function/method name in the log record
     Ok, everyone mentions this, so might as well get it over with
2.) logging.config _disables_ all existing loggers when loading a new
config file
     Can't break logging configs down into small, bite-sized pieces
     (e.g. 1 file per module, 1 file per script, etc.)
3.) Can't _STOP_ propagating a log message after it's handled
     'propagate' has no concept of 'propagate until someone deals with this'.
     This results in my top-level, 'catch-all' logger logging all message - even
     if they have already been proccessed
4.) Crufy config file syntax
     This is the ConfigParser modules 'fault'.  But it still results
in nasty config files for
     logging.

Those are my biggest problems - anyone know of a logger that improves
these points ??

Steve

From mech422 at gmail.com  Thu May 18 14:33:01 2006
From: mech422 at gmail.com (steve hindle)
Date: Thu, 18 May 2006 05:33:01 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] Python Logging Module
In-Reply-To: <446C3CF7.8010407@objectrealms.net>
References: <9a0545880605171559m5c211f67jf822e28b77aa760@mail.gmail.com>
	<446C3CF7.8010407@objectrealms.net>
Message-ID: <9a0545880605180533g2ad2a05au481a9fdd7b0d5301@mail.gmail.com>

On 5/18/06, hazmat at objectrealms.net <hazmat at objectrealms.net> wrote:
>
> the logging module was designed to be pluggable.. and all of these
> issues can be solved around via the same.
>
Thanks - but that wasn't what I asked.  Since nobody responded with a
'canned' solution, I went ahead and rolled my own.  I've responded to
your comments below

>   write a custom logger that overrides the _log method, use a custom log
> record class which captures this information (its currently gotten and
> discarded in the base handler's _log method), and a formatter which
> exposes it.
>
Yeah - its a commonly known (and solved) problem.  However, it seems a
pretty basic oversight for a logging module...

> > 2.) logging.config _disables_ all existing loggers when loading a new
> > config file
> >      Can't break logging configs down into small, bite-sized pieces
> >      (e.g. 1 file per module, 1 file per script, etc.)
>
This is a big one for me - I don't really like a 'loading information'
operation turning into a
'silently disable anything not in the new configfile' operation.
Maybe it just me, but I would have preferred something like
'logging.clear()' to disable loggers.  Then you could either add new
loggers, or clear() and totally reload the logging config.

> then, don't use that the default configuration. nothing forcing you to..
> its straight forward to write your own. i wrote a basic config
> alternative a few years ago to add a log profile abstraction for runtime
> switching of logging configuration and doing log configuration in python.

Again, this isn't really logging's fault - its a hold over from
configParser, but its still nasty.  Given the 'batteries included'
policy of Python, it would be nice to have a better configuration
parser in the stdlib.  The configObj module is a bit nicer, but still
requires multiple '[' ']' pairs to indicate section nesting.

>
> http://svn.objectrealms.net/view/occams/versioning/trunk/log.py?rev=164&view=auto
I'll have to take a look at this.. nice to see another Zopista about
:-)  LOL - I just realized where I've seen your nick - your hazmat
from #plone ?

> another example.. zope uses zconfig (standalone pluggable apache style
> configuration syntax for python apps) for its log handling which is
> included in the zconfig package.
>
This is really the sort of thing I was after - I'll have to check it
out.  Wish I'd seen it before hacking my own stuff in :-(

> > 3.) Can't _STOP_ propagating a log message after it's handled
> >      'propagate' has no concept of 'propagate until someone deals with this'.
> >      This results in my top-level, 'catch-all' logger logging all message - even
> >      if they have already been proccessed
>
> >
>
> the logging module already provides a facility for this.. it stops
> propogating when it encounters a logger with the propagate flag set to false
>
propagate is very odd, and useless for any kind of 'catch-all'
processing.  If you want a top level logger to 'just deal with'
anything that percolates up, propagate has to be set on every logger
in the chain.  The result is that the 'catch-all' is _always_ invoked,
causing msgs to be logged multiple times.  I just hung an 'emitted'
attribute off the LogRecord, and a 'reEmit' off the logger and use
those to control whether processed messages are re-raised.
  I find the behavior counter intuative.  Why it has exactly the
opposite behavior of exception handling is beyond me (exceptions need
to be explicitly re-raised, but loggers 'propagate' implicitly?? seems
sorta inconsistent).

> or you could define a callhandlers method implementation in your custom
> handler, that doesn't propogate.

yeah did that - still seems like something that should be there by
default though

>
> the logging module has a lot of functionality, which duplicating would
> be a waste of effort imho unless its completely unsuitable for your
> requirements, working to improve it or using its pluggable nature is to
> the benefit of all. batteries included, does not mean every desire
> satisfied. that said, out side of #4, all of these sound nice for
> a patch for the logging module, though changing #3 has some behavioral
> compatibility issues.

Oh, I'm not about to re-write from scratch - I took the subclass and
monkey patch approach.  It just seemed like the logging stuff looked
better on paper then it worked out in practice.  For instance, a root
logger is created on import of the logging module - BEFORE you can
subclass Logger, so you either have to muck about getting a new root
logger in place or live with Logger.  If there was a real Init()
function that created the root logger, etc. You could just call that
AFTER you call setLoggerClass.

Anyway, I'll have a look at ZConfig.  I've got the %(func) tag in
place, and the re-emit stuff.  But I haven't done anything about the
config file syntax yet.  Maybe I'll get lucky and just be able to use
ZConfig across the board and drop configObj entirely.  I'm not gonna
bother about the logging.config stuff - I'll just bypass it and create
the formatters, handlers and loggers by hand.

Thanks,
Steve

From aahz at pythoncraft.com  Thu May 18 16:01:58 2006
From: aahz at pythoncraft.com (Aahz)
Date: Thu, 18 May 2006 07:01:58 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] Python Logging Module
In-Reply-To: <9a0545880605180533g2ad2a05au481a9fdd7b0d5301@mail.gmail.com>
References: <9a0545880605171559m5c211f67jf822e28b77aa760@mail.gmail.com>
	<446C3CF7.8010407@objectrealms.net>
	<9a0545880605180533g2ad2a05au481a9fdd7b0d5301@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20060518140158.GA26202@panix.com>

You might want to discuss this on comp.lang.python -- there's a broader
base of opinions there, and you might get some encouragement to submit a
feature request or patch.
-- 
Aahz (aahz at pythoncraft.com)           <*>         http://www.pythoncraft.com/

"I saw `cout' being shifted "Hello world" times to the left and stopped
right there."  --Steve Gonedes

From epalmore at pixar.com  Thu May 18 23:45:50 2006
From: epalmore at pixar.com (Elizabeth Palmore)
Date: Thu, 18 May 2006 14:45:50 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] 2 New Job Openings @ Pixar Animation Studios!
References: <CC1B3CB6-353A-4637-9EAE-B29A2826E486@pixar.com>
Message-ID: <2BC777F5-23F3-4D27-BC6C-F4D323AC9A97@pixar.com>

> About Pixar Animation Studios:
>
> Pixar Animation Studios combines creative and technical artistry to  
> create original stories in the medium of computer animation. Pixar  
> has created six of the most successful and beloved animated films  
> of all time: Toy Story, A Bug's Life, Toy Story 2, Monsters, Inc.,  
> Finding Nemo and The Incredibles. Pixar has won 18 Academy Awards?  
> and its six films have grossed more than $3.2 billion at the  
> worldwide box office to date. The Northern California studio will  
> release its next film, Cars, on June 9, 2006. JOIN OUR TEAM!
>
> 1) Software Engineer Development in Test
> Studio Tools
>
> Summary of Job:
>
> We are seeking an experienced QA Engineer with a passion for  
> quality to participate in the software quality assurance efforts  
> for our proprietary in house toolset.
>
> This position requires close collaboration with the engineering  
> staff to define, develop, execute, and automate API level test  
> plans and test cases. Identify and communicate a strategy for API  
> and other testing methodologies, review and report on test  
> progress, status, and coverage, and meet test completion and  
> delivery milestones that you help define. Work closely with  
> development, project management and documentation to coordinate  
> testing responsibilities.
>
> Responsibilities:
>
> ? Develop and execute an API testing strategy, using API testing  
> methodology and programming language knowledge
> ? Develop and implement API tests
> ? Contribute to setting and evaluating milestone criteria such that  
> product is released on schedule with high quality
> ? Design and implement quality processes for a small team of senior  
> software developers
> ? Work closely with the core development teams during all phases of  
> the product life cycle
> ? Evaluate completeness and effectiveness of developer's unit tests
>
> Qualifications:
>
> ? 5+ years of experience in QA or software development
> ? Bachelor's degree in Computer Science or equivalent
> ? 3+ years of experience testing APIs and complex data structures
> ? Excellent design and coding skills ( C/C++ or  and a scripting  
> language such as Python or Perl)
> ? Knowledge of QA methodology, processes, and tools
> ? Direct experience testing software under Unix (e.g., Linux or OSX)
> ? Cross platform development experience is preferred (Macintosh,  
> Linux)
> ? Experience with 3D graphics applications is a plus
>
>
> 2) QA Engineer (3D Graphic Application)
> Studio Tools
>
> Summary of Job:
>
> The Production Engineering QA Team is looking for a Quality  
> Assurance Engineer to participate in our software quality assurance  
> efforts.
>
> This position requires close collaboration with the engineering and  
> production staff to test Pixar?s proprietary in house toolset. In  
> this position you will write, execute, and automate black box level  
> test plans and test cases. Other responsibilities include reporting  
> on test progress, status, and coverage, as well as meeting test  
> completion and delivery milestones that you help define.
>
> Responsibilities:
>
> ? Develop and execute test plans and test cases.
> ? Contribute to setting and evaluating milestone criteria such that  
> product is released on schedule with high quality.
> ? Design and implement quality processes for a small team of senior  
> software developers.
> ? Work closely with the core development teams during all phases of  
> the product life cycle.
> ? Continually research new technologies and incorporate that new  
> knowledge into your ongoing QA process.
>
> Qualifications:
>
> ? 3+ years of experience in QA
> ? Experience with 3D graphics applications (i.e., Maya, SOFTIMAGE,  
> 3D Studio Max)
> ? Bachelor's degree in Computer Science or equivalent
> ? Knowledge of QA methodology, processes, and tools
> ? Cross platform testing experience (Macintosh, Linux)
>
>
> Pixar Animation Studios
> Emeryville, CA
> Full - Time
> (Sorry, new visa sponsorship is not available.  Must be currently  
> authorized to work in the US)
>
> TO APPLY please go to www.pixar.com. Click on "Company Info" then  
> "Jobs." Or send your resume AND cover letter to crshonda at pixar.com
>
> Pixar is an Equal Opportunity Employer
>
>


From DennisR at dair.com  Fri May 19 20:39:26 2006
From: DennisR at dair.com (Dennis Reinhardt)
Date: Fri, 19 May 2006 11:39:26 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] DNS
In-Reply-To: <0DB8D1752501D54A89A4725BD9DFE6F406915D@GLOBE.delsci.local>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20060519113241.00c1bb18@localhost>

I am working to fix a security hole in the baypiggies.net domain and 
evidently have now pointed back to an out of date home page.  Ooops.  Under 
investigation and repair.
------------------------------------
| Dennis    | DennisR at dair.com     |
| Reinhardt | Powerful Anti-Spam   |
| http://dair.com/py/planmeet.html |
------------------------------------


From DennisR at dair.com  Sat May 20 01:54:52 2006
From: DennisR at dair.com (Dennis Reinhardt)
Date: Fri, 19 May 2006 16:54:52 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] DNS
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20060519113241.00c1bb18@localhost>
References: <0DB8D1752501D54A89A4725BD9DFE6F406915D@GLOBE.delsci.local>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20060519164550.00be9bf8@localhost>

At 11:39 AM 5/19/2006, Dennis Reinhardt wrote:
>I am working to fix a security hole in the baypiggies.net domain and
>evidently have now pointed back to an out of date home page.  Ooops.  Under
>investigation and repair.

In the meantime, the following URL will reach the baypiggies website:

         http://baypiggies.python-hosted.com/

The corresponding IP address of 67.15.112.31 cannot be used in a web 
request.  I hope this is nothing more squirrely than a missing host header 
in http 1.1.  The new DNS should be propagating now (with emphasis on 
should be).

The baypiggies.net address is still incorrectly resolving to Deirdre's 
years old page.



------------------------------------
| Dennis    | DennisR at dair.com     |
| Reinhardt | Powerful Anti-Spam   |
| http://dair.com/py/planmeet.html |
------------------------------------


From DennisR at dair.com  Sun May 21 22:34:35 2006
From: DennisR at dair.com (Dennis Reinhardt)
Date: Sun, 21 May 2006 13:34:35 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] DNS
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20060519113241.00c1bb18@localhost>
References: <0DB8D1752501D54A89A4725BD9DFE6F406915D@GLOBE.delsci.local>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20060521131351.00bf9188@localhost>


The domain name changes have propagated.

Rick Moen has volunteered to continue providing slave DNS service for us in 
the linuxmafia.com domain.  Unfortunately, that is not possible at this 
time.  The current registrar has a brain-dead piece of coding where they 
will not recognize their default name servers as legal DNS servers for 
purposes of making additions.

Perhaps there is a workaround (get them to fix, assign all names 
explicitly, make potion using bat wings, etc.).  ... but I intend to change 
registrars anyway (better control panel, really excellent tech/cust 
service, and, ahem, much less expensive).

The most convenient time to change registrars is very shortly after a 
meeting so that people wanting to find out meeting info are not 
inconvenienced.  Our next regular meeting is June 8.  I plan to start the 
registrar transfer June 9.  I plan to add linuxmafia.com back as a slave 
DNS at the time I move to new registrar.

In this DNS change, the following machines have been removed as nameservers:

	NS2.BAYPIGGIES.NET  198.144.195.190
    	NS2.WEBL.COM        66.239.72.24
        NS1.WEBL.COM       71.2.114.159

for security and configuration reasons.  Unless I hear reasons to the 
contrary, I will not add them back.


------------------------------------
| Dennis    | DennisR at dair.com     |
| Reinhardt | Powerful Anti-Spam   |
| http://dair.com/py/planmeet.html |
------------------------------------


From rdm at cfcl.com  Tue May 23 07:02:23 2006
From: rdm at cfcl.com (Rich Morin)
Date: Mon, 22 May 2006 22:02:23 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] Beer and Scripting SIG (BASS) - reminder
Message-ID: <p06230908c098434217c7@[192.168.254.205]>

The Beer & Scripting SIG (http://www.cfcl.com/rdm/bass) will
take place Wednesday evening, 5/24.  Be there or be elsewhere!


Also note that the calendar of Bay Area Scripting Events is
available and open to submissions (all your BASE are belong
to us :-).

  *  webcal://cfcl.com/pub_dav/BA_Scripting_Groups.ics
  *  http://cfcl.com/pub_dav/BA_Scripting_Groups.ics

and that the list of local scripting groups is online at

  SF Bay Area Scripting Groups
  http://www.cfcl.com/rdm/bass/groups.php

-r
-- 
http://www.cfcl.com/rdm            Rich Morin
http://www.cfcl.com/rdm/resume     rdm at cfcl.com
http://www.cfcl.com/rdm/weblog     +1 650-873-7841

Technical editing and writing, programming, and web development

From rbradley at projectway.com  Fri May 26 02:36:28 2006
From: rbradley at projectway.com (Rand Bradley)
Date: Thu, 25 May 2006 17:36:28 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] Fwd: [sdforum_emergingtech] This month at EMTECH-SIG:
	Python for Smartphones
In-Reply-To: <000e01c6805b$0fa33010$7901a8c0@randwich>
References: <000e01c6805b$0fa33010$7901a8c0@randwich>
Message-ID: <3a3f04f50605251736w7eed1db6i5f1d9c1f8de822@mail.gmail.com>

All - I wanted to let you know that we are featuring Python on the Series 60
Smartphone this month at the SDForum Emerging Technologies SIG. The
BayPython group is welcome to attend this event at no charge. (When you
register, just tell them you are with BayPython to eliminate the non-member
fee).

This looks to be a good talk and I hope to see you all there! Attached is
the meeting announcement where you can find more information.


---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Rand Bradley <rbradley at projectway.com>
Date: May 25, 2006 5:26 PM
Subject: [sdforum_emergingtech] This month at EMTECH-SIG: Python for
Smartphones
To: sdforum_emergingtech at yahoogroups.com

 Mike Rowehl and Hartti Suomela are our guest presenter's at this months
meeting (Wednesday June 14). The topic this month: Python for the Nokia
Series 60 Smartphone. Python is poised to play a significant role for
Smartphones with Nokia's latest S60 release.  Mike and Hartti will be
discussing the latest Python for S60 release as well as demonstrating just
how easy it can be to create Smartphone applications.



Where: Cubberley Community Center, 4000 Middlefield Road, Palo Alto,
Room H-1.  Here's a link that gives directions to Cubberley:
http://www.sdforum.org/p/l1.asp?SID=1&PID=324
When:  Wednesday, June 14, 2006
7:00 Registration, Pizza, networking, and small-talk
7:20 Intro by Rand Bradley, Emerging Tech SIG Co-chair
7:30 Mike Rowehl and Hartti Suomela, Python for the Nokia Series 60



ABSTRACT:  Have you ever wanted to develop Smartphone applications, but were
put off by the intricacies of high-performance C++ programming? Now you no
longer need to be a Smartphone specialist to develop applications for the
Smartphone. Nokia is continually making application development easier and
easier by releasing language platform SDKs for Java and more recently
Python.



Python is considered one of the easiest programming languages to learn and
is noted for its ability to rapidly building applications. Nokia brings
these strengths to the S60 platform by fully integrating the Python
language. All API's and hardware features are available to Python as well as
a fully integration user interface layer for building native look and feel
applications. On top of that, Nokia recently released Python for S60 under
the Apache license (see http://sourceforge.net/projects/pys60).



At this month's meeting, we will learn more about the capabilities of Python
for S60 and an introduction to just how easy it is to create S60
applications with Python. The presentation will also demonstrate:

   - Using the python interpreter interactively from a PC
   - The native Smartphone UI library
   - Capturing an image from the built in camera
   - Communicating with other devices via Bluetooth
   - Making requests via the cellular interface
   - Communicating with web services (Yahoo, Flickr, Ning)


MIKE ROWEHL'S BIO:  Mike is an independent consultant and contractor working
on mobile systems. He's the organizer and co-founder of the Silicon Valley
chapter of Mobile Monday (http://www.mobilemonday.us) and has been
instrumental in spreading the group to other areas. Mike has a particular
concentration on open source in mobile solutions, both on the server and
device sides. He has 12 years of experience programming with and for Linux
based solutions and has made extensive use of web tools and techniques.


HARTTI SUOMELA's BIO: Hartti is a long time Nokian, his current position is
Senior Technology Expert in Forum Nokia, which provides developers with a
broad range of technical support, knowledge, discussion boards, training
opportunities, and information on application testing and usability.
Previously he worked in the Software Lab of Nokia Research Center and
coordinated Nokia's collaboration with Stanford Media X. During his years in
NRC he has worked in various mobile projects in the field of media,
advertising, mobile Web, health, and usability.

See you in a few weeks.  Have a safe Memorial Day weekend.

Bill, Peter, Janice, and Rand

Thanks to our sponsors, IBM and El Dorado Ventures, for their ongoing
support.


 SPONSORED LINKS
  Emerging technology<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Emerging+technology&w1=Emerging+technology&w2=Software+technology&w3=Computer+security&w4=Computer+training&w5=Computer+internet&c=5&s=119&.sig=z6XmQyYIBSnSv2h29BzzIA>
 Software
technology<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Software+technology&w1=Emerging+technology&w2=Software+technology&w3=Computer+security&w4=Computer+training&w5=Computer+internet&c=5&s=119&.sig=vIc3-HfWZwGcg-v9yhhssg>
 Computer
security<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Computer+security&w1=Emerging+technology&w2=Software+technology&w3=Computer+security&w4=Computer+training&w5=Computer+internet&c=5&s=119&.sig=Pp3Gb7iwMBhfp79r0jW8ig>
  Computer
training<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Computer+training&w1=Emerging+technology&w2=Software+technology&w3=Computer+security&w4=Computer+training&w5=Computer+internet&c=5&s=119&.sig=ZMcuOPbtI2_Ryel6T7sB3A>
 Computer
internet<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Computer+internet&w1=Emerging+technology&w2=Software+technology&w3=Computer+security&w4=Computer+training&w5=Computer+internet&c=5&s=119&.sig=1989iFEddisQr5QLtMroKA>
 ------------------------------
YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS


   -  Visit your group
"sdforum_emergingtech<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sdforum_emergingtech>"
   on the web.

   -  To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
    sdforum_emergingtech-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com<sdforum_emergingtech-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>

   -  Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
Service<http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>
   .


 ------------------------------


-- 

Kind Regards,

Rand Bradley
PROJECTWAY, LLC
Phone: (415) 430-5535
Email:   rbradley at projectway.com
http://www.projectway.com
-------------- next part --------------
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From cappy2112 at gmail.com  Fri May 26 02:45:21 2006
From: cappy2112 at gmail.com (Tony C)
Date: Thu, 25 May 2006 17:45:21 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] Fwd: Fwd: This month at EMTECH-SIG: Python for
	Smartphones
In-Reply-To: <3a3f04f50605251736w7eed1db6i5f1d9c1f8de822@mail.gmail.com>
References: <000e01c6805b$0fa33010$7901a8c0@randwich>
	<3a3f04f50605251736w7eed1db6i5f1d9c1f8de822@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <8249c4ac0605251745k2caf6504v92ad0c0fc508f80a@mail.gmail.com>

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Rand Bradley <rbradley at projectway.com>
Date: May 25, 2006 5:36 PM
Subject: [Baypiggies] Fwd: [sdforum_emergingtech] This month at EMTECH-SIG:
Python for Smartphones
To: baypiggies at python.org

All - I wanted to let you know that we are featuring Python on the Series 60
Smartphone this month at the SDForum Emerging Technologies SIG. The
BayPython group is welcome to attend this event at no charge. (When you
register, just tell them you are with BayPython to eliminate the non-member
fee).

This looks to be a good talk and I hope to see you all there! Attached is
the meeting announcement where you can find more information.


---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Rand Bradley <rbradley at projectway.com>
Date: May 25, 2006 5:26 PM
Subject: [sdforum_emergingtech] This month at EMTECH-SIG: Python for
Smartphones
To: sdforum_emergingtech at yahoogroups.com

 Mike Rowehl and Hartti Suomela are our guest presenter's at this months
meeting (Wednesday June 14). The topic this month: Python for the Nokia
Series 60 Smartphone. Python is poised to play a significant role for
Smartphones with Nokia's latest S60 release.  Mike and Hartti will be
discussing the latest Python for S60 release as well as demonstrating just
how easy it can be to create Smartphone applications.



Where: Cubberley Community Center, 4000 Middlefield Road, Palo Alto,
Room H-1.  Here's a link that gives directions to Cubberley:
http://www.sdforum.org/p/l1.asp?SID=1&PID=324
When:  Wednesday, June 14, 2006
7:00 Registration, Pizza, networking, and small-talk
7:20 Intro by Rand Bradley, Emerging Tech SIG Co-chair
7:30 Mike Rowehl and Hartti Suomela, Python for the Nokia Series 60



ABSTRACT:  Have you ever wanted to develop Smartphone applications, but were
put off by the intricacies of high-performance C++ programming? Now you no
longer need to be a Smartphone specialist to develop applications for the
Smartphone. Nokia is continually making application development easier and
easier by releasing language platform SDKs for Java and more recently
Python.



Python is considered one of the easiest programming languages to learn and
is noted for its ability to rapidly building applications. Nokia brings
these strengths to the S60 platform by fully integrating the Python
language. All API's and hardware features are available to Python as well as
a fully integration user interface layer for building native look and feel
applications. On top of that, Nokia recently released Python for S60 under
the Apache license (see http://sourceforge.net/projects/pys60).



At this month's meeting, we will learn more about the capabilities of Python
for S60 and an introduction to just how easy it is to create S60
applications with Python. The presentation will also demonstrate:

   - Using the python interpreter interactively from a PC
   - The native Smartphone UI library
   - Capturing an image from the built in camera
   - Communicating with other devices via Bluetooth
   - Making requests via the cellular interface
   - Communicating with web services (Yahoo, Flickr, Ning)


MIKE ROWEHL'S BIO:  Mike is an independent consultant and contractor working
on mobile systems. He's the organizer and co-founder of the Silicon Valley
chapter of Mobile Monday (http://www.mobilemonday.us) and has been
instrumental in spreading the group to other areas. Mike has a particular
concentration on open source in mobile solutions, both on the server and
device sides. He has 12 years of experience programming with and for Linux
based solutions and has made extensive use of web tools and techniques.


HARTTI SUOMELA's BIO: Hartti is a long time Nokian, his current position is
Senior Technology Expert in Forum Nokia, which provides developers with a
broad range of technical support, knowledge, discussion boards, training
opportunities, and information on application testing and usability.
Previously he worked in the Software Lab of Nokia Research Center and
coordinated Nokia's collaboration with Stanford Media X. During his years in
NRC he has worked in various mobile projects in the field of media,
advertising, mobile Web, health, and usability.

See you in a few weeks.  Have a safe Memorial Day weekend.

Bill, Peter, Janice, and Rand

Thanks to our sponsors, IBM and El Dorado Ventures, for their ongoing
support.


 SPONSORED LINKS
  Emerging technology<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Emerging+technology&w1=Emerging+technology&w2=Software+technology&w3=Computer+security&w4=Computer+training&w5=Computer+internet&c=5&s=119&.sig=z6XmQyYIBSnSv2h29BzzIA>
 Software
technology<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Software+technology&w1=Emerging+technology&w2=Software+technology&w3=Computer+security&w4=Computer+training&w5=Computer+internet&c=5&s=119&.sig=vIc3-HfWZwGcg-v9yhhssg>
 Computer
security<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Computer+security&w1=Emerging+technology&w2=Software+technology&w3=Computer+security&w4=Computer+training&w5=Computer+internet&c=5&s=119&.sig=Pp3Gb7iwMBhfp79r0jW8ig>
  Computer
training<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Computer+training&w1=Emerging+technology&w2=Software+technology&w3=Computer+security&w4=Computer+training&w5=Computer+internet&c=5&s=119&.sig=ZMcuOPbtI2_Ryel6T7sB3A>
 Computer
internet<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Computer+internet&w1=Emerging+technology&w2=Software+technology&w3=Computer+security&w4=Computer+training&w5=Computer+internet&c=5&s=119&.sig=1989iFEddisQr5QLtMroKA>
 ------------------------------
YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS


   -  Visit your group
"sdforum_emergingtech<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sdforum_emergingtech>"
   on the web.

   -  To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
     sdforum_emergingtech-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com<sdforum_emergingtech-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>

   -  Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
Service<http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>.


 ------------------------------


-- 

Kind Regards,

Rand Bradley
PROJECTWAY, LLC
Phone: (415) 430-5535
Email:   rbradley at projectway.com
http://www.projectway.com

_______________________________________________
Baypiggies mailing list
Baypiggies at python.org
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies
-------------- next part --------------
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From cbc at unc.edu  Fri May 26 17:03:32 2006
From: cbc at unc.edu (Chris Calloway)
Date: Fri, 26 May 2006 11:03:32 -0400
Subject: [Baypiggies] PyCamp
Message-ID: <447718C4.7090209@unc.edu>

Please humor this message from one of your sister Python user groups:

There are five days left for PyCamp early bird registration.

http://trizpug.org/boot-camp/pyc1/

PyCamp takes a programmer familiar with basic programming concepts to 
the status of Python developer with one week of training. The training 
is geared towards scientific and research computing. If you have 
previous programming experience and want to step into Python programming 
as quickly and painlessly as possible, this boot camp is for you. PyCamp 
covers XML processing, SOAP web services, matplotlib, gnuplot, NumPy, 
Scientific Python, SciPy, PyMat, RPy, and more.

Depending on the demographics of early registratrants, more time in 
PyCamp may be spent on bioinformatics, environmental applications, GIS 
applications, or parallel processing applications.

-- 
Sincerely,

Chris Calloway
http://www.seacoos.org
office: 17-6 Venable Hall   phone: (919) 962-4323
mail: Campus Box #3300, UNC-CH, Chapel Hill, NC 27599






From marilyn at deliberate.com  Fri May 26 18:51:21 2006
From: marilyn at deliberate.com (Marilyn Davis)
Date: Fri, 26 May 2006 09:51:21 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Baypiggies] PyCamp
In-Reply-To: <447718C4.7090209@unc.edu>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0605260949390.1172-100000@localhost.localdomain>

On Fri, 26 May 2006, Chris Calloway wrote:

> Please humor this message from one of your sister Python user groups:

Hi Chris,

Actually, I like to see what training opportunities look like in other
places.

And this one looks great.  Very attractive web site.

Thank you.

Marilyn Davis

> 
> There are five days left for PyCamp early bird registration.
> 
> http://trizpug.org/boot-camp/pyc1/
> 
> PyCamp takes a programmer familiar with basic programming concepts to 
> the status of Python developer with one week of training. The training 
> is geared towards scientific and research computing. If you have 
> previous programming experience and want to step into Python programming 
> as quickly and painlessly as possible, this boot camp is for you. PyCamp 
> covers XML processing, SOAP web services, matplotlib, gnuplot, NumPy, 
> Scientific Python, SciPy, PyMat, RPy, and more.
> 
> Depending on the demographics of early registratrants, more time in 
> PyCamp may be spent on bioinformatics, environmental applications, GIS 
> applications, or parallel processing applications.
> 
> 

-- 


From donnamsnow at gmail.com  Fri May 26 22:18:41 2006
From: donnamsnow at gmail.com (Donna M. Snow)
Date: Fri, 26 May 2006 13:18:41 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] PyCamp
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0605260949390.1172-100000@localhost.localdomain>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0605260949390.1172-100000@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <447762A1.2080900@gmail.com>

<<And this one looks great.  Very attractive web site.

Thank you.

Marilyn Davis>>


It's a Plone site :-)


Here is our future site:

http://www.baypiggies.net/zope/pr

This weekend I'll get baypiggies.net June schedule updated.. I've had a nasty can't-get-out-of-bed flu this week.. on the tail end of it now. 

Next week I'm going to start making changes to our base Plone site (colors, style, menu links). 

Donna Snow




From spmcinerney at hotmail.com  Fri May 26 23:55:34 2006
From: spmcinerney at hotmail.com (Stephen McInerney)
Date: Fri, 26 May 2006 14:55:34 -0700
Subject: [Baypiggies] PyCamp
In-Reply-To: <447718C4.7090209@unc.edu>
Message-ID: <BAY103-F533D0EF5BB72D4135FC28A09E0@phx.gbl>

Chris,

I totally love the course outline, but am unlikely to take a week vacation 
this August to go to Raleigh.
Please post if you have other tentative dates, and/or if you ever do the SF 
Bay Area.
(You may get good responses from Livermore and Berkeley LBL).

Also, adding vPython and VTK would be neat; prefer more MatLab and no R.
Do you have opinions on Enthought Python distribution, and can you suggest 
them to also bundle the packages you use?

Regards,
Stephen McInerney