From DennisR at dair.com Fri Jun 2 04:42:38 2006 From: DennisR at dair.com (Dennis Reinhardt) Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 19:42:38 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] June 8 meeting at Ironport 7:30-9:00 Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20060601194035.00be8fe8@localhost> Following are details for our next Baypiggies meeting. I see the web site has not been updated. The last I heard, Donna was sick. Perhaps we need a backup webmaster to post this. Any volunteers? Thursday, June 8, 2006 Location: Ironport dungeon (basement) 7:30 PM to 8:20 PM Title: Mercurial distributed Source Control Management system Presenter: Bryan O'Sullivan Level: beginner-oriented with some intermediate Project URL: http://www.selenic.com/mercurial/wiki/index.cgi Material URL: http://www.selenic.com/mercurial/wiki/index.cgi/Presentations The Mercurial distributed SCM is written in Python, portable, distributed, easy to learn, and very, very fast. It's being used by such big, well-regarded operating system projects as Xen and OpenSolaris, and smaller, popular projects such as MoinMoin and microformats. Features and some of the techniques used to get good performance are presented. 8:20 PM to 8:45 PM Title: Designing Your Own Mini-language Presenter: Ken Seehart Level: Advanced Project URL: http://www.neuralintegrator.com/documentation/ni_book Material URL: http://www.neuralintegrator.com/documentation/NICL_presentation.ppt About the talk: A recipe for the development of special purpose languages involving extensions to the C++ grammar is proposed. This presentation briefly describes the implementation of the NICL programming language. 8:45 PM to 9:00 PM Event: Mapping/Random Access Moderator: Dennis Reinhardt (DAIR Computer Systems) Level: Open to and accessible by All About the event Mapping is a rapid-fire audience announcement of topics the announcer is interested in. Random Access follows immediately to allow follow up individually on topics of interest. ---------------------------------- | Dennis | DennisR at dair.com | | Reinhardt | Powerful Anti-Spam | ---------------------------------- From donnamsnow at gmail.com Fri Jun 2 08:59:26 2006 From: donnamsnow at gmail.com (Donna M. Snow) Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 23:59:26 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] June 8 meeting at Ironport 7:30-9:00 In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20060601194035.00be8fe8@localhost> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20060601194035.00be8fe8@localhost> Message-ID: <447FE1CE.4080402@gmail.com> I got it.. it'll be updated tonight. Today was the first day I've felt halfway decent and I'm behind on paying work (you all know how that is..) I'll get the home page updated right now :-) Didn't anticipate getting as sick as I was.. might be a good idea to find someone to backup for the future. Once we've moved to Plone.. anyone with appropriate permissions will be able to make updates Donna From jon at coral8.com Fri Jun 2 19:45:35 2006 From: jon at coral8.com (Jon Rosen) Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2006 10:45:35 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Coral8 is looking for a Test Automation Engineer who knows Python and SQL! Message-ID: <4480793F.4020803@coral8.com> Coral8, Inc. is looking for a Test Automation Engineer to work on major enhancements to our testing framework which is written in Python and to handle both implementation and execution of automated tests for our flagship product. We are a well-funded start-up located in Mountain View. Our CEO, Terry Cunningham, was the founder of Crystal Decisions (the maker of Crystal Reports) who, after selling Crystal Decisions to Seagate in 1994, served as the President of Seagate Software, leading the merger of Seagate's Network and Storage Management Group with VERITAS in 1998. We are now shipping version 4.0 of the Coral8 Engine, a cutting-edge technology infrastructure product that provides complex event processing and analysis for continuous streams of data at rates which can exceed hundreds of thousands of rows a second with subsecond latency. Please check out our website, www.coral8.com, where you can learn more about our technology and how it can be used to dramatically improve the ability to deal with massive flows of incoming data from sources such as financial transaction streams, RFID readers, network packet routers and real-time sensor measurements. You can also download an unrestricted version of our product and use it for free for development or evaluation purposes only. The more of the following requirements you meet, the more we will be interested in you! Strong OO Python programming knowledge and experience Knowledge of SQL, particularly complex queries Experience testing an implementation of a programming or query language (preferably SQL) Experience writing and executing test plans Experience testing infrastructure software Experience testing distributed and multithreaded systems Automated testing and test scripting experience Performance and stress testing experience If you think you know a lot about the above subjects, but don't have that much formal working experience (just out of college, coming back into the work force, making a career switch), don't let that keep you from applying. *We love smart hard-working people* and if we think you have what we are looking for, we will likely be interested regardless of how may years of experience you have. But please be prepared to demonstrate your abilities. We want people who can really do these things, not people who just talk about it. Our compensation policies are excellent for the right people and you will get early round stock options plus full company benefits as well. This is a full-time position. People seeking contract work or people who are not already qualified to work permanently in the United States (green card or citizen) should not apply. Coral8, Inc., does not discriminate in employment on the basis of race, religion, national origin, sex, age, disability or marital status. If you are interested in this position, please forward your resume and salary requirements to: jon at coral8.com Jon Rosen Director, Software Testing and Support Coral8, Inc. -- --------------------------------------------------------------- "The difference between theory and reality is that in theory, there is no difference between theory and reality, but in reality, there is." - Anonymous -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mail.python.org/pipermail/baypiggies/attachments/20060602/c1f371d6/attachment.htm From marilyn at deliberate.com Fri Jun 2 22:06:36 2006 From: marilyn at deliberate.com (Marilyn Davis) Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2006 13:06:36 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Baypiggies] Videotaping presentations (was Re: June 8 meeting at Ironport 7:30-9:00) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 2 Jun 2006, Mike Cheponis wrote: > Hmmmm.. > > Many other groups, as a matter of course, tape their presentations and put them up on Google video. This is a real service especially when people can't make meetings, and to keep the large percentage of the email list up-to-date. Watching the video while simultaneously flipping the slides is almost as good as having been there. > > Perhaps "the committee" will consider videotaping all presentations, starting with this one on June 8th. It would be good to ask for a volunteer for this on the email list, so I'm forwarding there. I think the email list is "the committee". I'm afraid I won't make this presentation. It's too difficult and disheartening to travel so far at rush-hour only to have trouble hearing. It's really too bad because I am curious about the subject and hope that a video comes out of it. Might the group re-reconsider having all the talks at Google? If the acoustics issue doesn't budge the group (which seems rather heartless and inconsiderate [perhaps blamable on our name?]), then perhaps the data collected by Steven might? And the fact that Google will videotape for us? Again, what is the reason for having the confusion and complication of two meeting sites when one has creature-discomforts and is harder to reach for many more people? I seem to remember that the final reason given was that the group can claim more geography? Why is "more" a good thing? (again, is it a consequence of our name?) Marilyn > > Thanks! > > -Mike > > > On Fri, 2 Jun 2006, Dennis Reinhardt wrote: > > > > > At 11:32 PM 6/1/2006, you wrote: > >> Is anybody going to be able to videotape any of these presentations? I'll > >> be out of town for this meeting. > > > > > > Mike, > > > > I know of no plans for video taping. Both speakers have promised to put > > there presentation materials on the web at the Material URL in the > > announcement. > > > > Regards, Dennis > > > > ---------------------------------- > > | Dennis | DennisR at dair.com | > > | Reinhardt | Powerful Anti-Spam | > > ---------------------------------- > > > -- From aahz at pythoncraft.com Fri Jun 2 22:39:25 2006 From: aahz at pythoncraft.com (Aahz) Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2006 13:39:25 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Meeting location (was Videotaping presentations) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20060602203925.GA4386@panix.com> On Fri, Jun 02, 2006, Marilyn Davis wrote: > > Again, what is the reason for having the confusion and complication of > two meeting sites when one has creature-discomforts and is harder to > reach for many more people? Do other people agree that IronPort is really that much more uncomfortable than Google? Believe me, I'm extremely sympathetic to the issue of acoustics, but there have also been a number of people who can get to IronPort but not Google. As long as that is a significant population, I don't think we should cut them out. Perhaps finding another more northern (or even more eastern) venue is the answer. -- Aahz (aahz at pythoncraft.com) <*> http://www.pythoncraft.com/ "I saw `cout' being shifted "Hello world" times to the left and stopped right there." --Steve Gonedes From aleax at google.com Fri Jun 2 23:10:49 2006 From: aleax at google.com (Alex Martelli) Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2006 14:10:49 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Meeting location (was Videotaping presentations) In-Reply-To: <20060602203925.GA4386@panix.com> References: <20060602203925.GA4386@panix.com> Message-ID: <55dc209b0606021410w65d2e62cs891726ee944a9f39@mail.google.com> On 6/2/06, Aahz wrote: > On Fri, Jun 02, 2006, Marilyn Davis wrote: > > > > Again, what is the reason for having the confusion and complication of > > two meeting sites when one has creature-discomforts and is harder to > > reach for many more people? > > Do other people agree that IronPort is really that much more > uncomfortable than Google? Believe me, I'm extremely sympathetic to the > issue of acoustics, but there have also been a number of people who can > get to IronPort but not Google. As long as that is a significant > population, I don't think we should cut them out. Perhaps finding > another more northern (or even more eastern) venue is the answer. Even though coming to IronPort is quite inconvenient for me (so I rarely do), I would feel selfish arguing for only meeting here (or any other location in the South Bay), to the detriment of anybody coming from SF or Marin County or... Alex From marilyn at deliberate.com Fri Jun 2 23:13:29 2006 From: marilyn at deliberate.com (Marilyn Davis) Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2006 14:13:29 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Meeting location (was Videotaping presentations) Message-ID: <20060602211332.9EB511E400D@bag.python.org> ----- On Friday, June 2, 2006 aahz at pythoncraft.com wrote: > On Fri, Jun 02, 2006, Marilyn Davis wrote: >> >> Again, what is the reason for having the confusion and complication of >> two meeting sites when one has creature-discomforts and is harder to >> reach for many more people? > > Do other people agree that IronPort is really that much more > uncomfortable than Google? Believe me, I'm extremely sympathetic to the > issue of acoustics, but there have also been a number of people who can > get to IronPort but not Google. As long as that is a significant > population, I don't think we should cut them out. Perhaps finding I thought that Stephen's survey discovered that there are many more people who can get to Google but not Ironport than vice-versa. And I think it showed that the further north and east, the fewer people. I don't seem to be able to find the survey online by looking at the archives of talks. Am I missing something obvious? Stephen, can you direct me? Marilyn > another more northern (or even more eastern) venue is the answer. > -- > Aahz (aahz at pythoncraft.com) http://www.pythoncraft.com/ > > "I saw `cout' being shifted "Hello world" times to the left and stopped > right there." --Steve Gonedes > _______________________________________________ > Baypiggies mailing list > Baypiggies at python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies From wescpy at gmail.com Fri Jun 2 23:45:07 2006 From: wescpy at gmail.com (w chun) Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2006 14:45:07 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] June 8 meeting at Ironport 7:30-9:00 In-Reply-To: <447FE1CE.4080402@gmail.com> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20060601194035.00be8fe8@localhost> <447FE1CE.4080402@gmail.com> Message-ID: <78b3a9580606021445q7af02c8enc6e67d11ece7f267@mail.gmail.com> less painful ways to get to IronPort for those coming up from the south bay: 1) take 280. it takes just about 30min to get from 280 & 85 to IronPort... trust me... this was my commute. the only place that gets cloggy is when you're almost there, near 280/380. take the one (san bruno ave) exit earlier to avoid the traffic of going all the way to 380/el camino. down the hill, left on elm, and you're at ironport. 2) consider public transit. you can get free exercise too. just scroll to the bottom of the directions page off the website http://baypiggies.net/dir.html ... if you walk or take your bike, it makes up for that gym membership you're spending on but not using. also, you may be able to hitch a ride back to public transit or all the way home if you speak up during random access. cheers, -wesley From aahz at pythoncraft.com Fri Jun 2 23:53:20 2006 From: aahz at pythoncraft.com (Aahz) Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2006 14:53:20 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Meeting location (was Videotaping presentations) In-Reply-To: <20060602211332.9EB511E400D@bag.python.org> References: <20060602211332.9EB511E400D@bag.python.org> Message-ID: <20060602215320.GA2916@panix.com> On Fri, Jun 02, 2006, Marilyn Davis wrote: > ----- On Friday, June 2, 2006 aahz at pythoncraft.com wrote: >> On Fri, Jun 02, 2006, Marilyn Davis wrote: >>> >>> Again, what is the reason for having the confusion and complication of >>> two meeting sites when one has creature-discomforts and is harder to >>> reach for many more people? >> >> Do other people agree that IronPort is really that much more >> uncomfortable than Google? Believe me, I'm extremely sympathetic to the >> issue of acoustics, but there have also been a number of people who can >> get to IronPort but not Google. As long as that is a significant >> population, I don't think we should cut them out. Perhaps finding > > I thought that Stephen's survey discovered that there are many more > people who can get to Google but not Ironport than vice-versa. And I > think it showed that the further north and east, the fewer people. >From my POV, it wouldn't matter if there were five hundred people who could get to Google but not IronPort, as long as there are at least ten or fifteen people who can get to IronPort but not Google. And, yes, I'm speaking as someone for whom Google is much easier to reach than IronPort. BayPIGgies is for the SF Bay Area Python community, and I think an important aspect of community is making community resources available to as many different members of the community as possible, rather than maximizing the resources given to "central" members of the community. If there are only five or ten people who can get to IronPort but not Google, that changes the equation a bit -- it certainly is possible to reach a point of diminishing returns. -- Aahz (aahz at pythoncraft.com) <*> http://www.pythoncraft.com/ "I saw `cout' being shifted "Hello world" times to the left and stopped right there." --Steve Gonedes From eric at ericwalstad.com Fri Jun 2 22:54:00 2006 From: eric at ericwalstad.com (Eric Walstad) Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2006 13:54:00 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Meeting location (was Videotaping presentations) In-Reply-To: <20060602203925.GA4386@panix.com> References: <20060602203925.GA4386@panix.com> Message-ID: <200606021354.01146.eric@ericwalstad.com> On Friday 02 June 2006 13:39, Aahz wrote: > On Fri, Jun 02, 2006, Marilyn Davis wrote: > > Again, what is the reason for having the confusion and complication of > > two meeting sites when one has creature-discomforts and is harder to > > reach for many more people? > > Do other people agree that IronPort is really that much more > uncomfortable than Google? No. My hearing isn't the greatest and the meetings I've attended at IronPort weren't hard to hear. I also prefer IronPort for its proximity to my home/work in San Francisco. FWIW, I'm all for videotaping the meetings. I wasn't able to attend the Google meeting, when Jacob Kaplan-Moss presented, and was grateful to be able to watch the video. Eric. From marilyn at deliberate.com Sat Jun 3 00:34:13 2006 From: marilyn at deliberate.com (Marilyn Davis) Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2006 15:34:13 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Meeting location (was Videotaping presentations) Message-ID: <20060602223416.6F68E1E400D@bag.python.org> ------- On Friday, June 2, 2006 aahz at pythoncraft.com wrote: > On Fri, Jun 02, 2006, Marilyn Davis wrote: >> ----- On Friday, June 2, 2006 aahz at pythoncraft.com wrote: >>> On Fri, Jun 02, 2006, Marilyn Davis wrote: >>>> >>>> Again, what is the reason for having the confusion and complication of >>>> two meeting sites when one has creature-discomforts and is harder to >>>> reach for many more people? >>> >>> Do other people agree that IronPort is really that much more >>> uncomfortable than Google? Believe me, I'm extremely sympathetic to the >>> issue of acoustics, but there have also been a number of people who can >>> get to IronPort but not Google. As long as that is a significant >>> population, I don't think we should cut them out. Perhaps finding >> >> I thought that Stephen's survey discovered that there are many more >> people who can get to Google but not Ironport than vice-versa. And I >> think it showed that the further north and east, the fewer people. > >>From my POV, it wouldn't matter if there were five hundred people who > could get to Google but not IronPort, as long as there are at least ten > or fifteen people who can get to IronPort but not Google. And, yes, I'm Really? I don't understand that point of view. > speaking as someone for whom Google is much easier to reach than > IronPort. BayPIGgies is for the SF Bay Area Python community, and I That's what I mean about geography. I don't understand why one club would claim to be *the* club for the whole bay area. It seems a bit greedy. If this club, which has its geographic center determined by the fact that meetings were at Stanford for so long, relinguishes its claim on so much geography, there would be an opening for more clubs in the bay area. I'd rather encourage more clubs, and encourage speakers to travel, than to expect the audience to travel around the bay. If there are 10 or 15 people who can get to Ironport, but not Google, maybe our speakers would be willing to do both places, saving lots of gas and collective travel time. > think an important aspect of community is making community resources > available to as many different members of the community as possible, > rather than maximizing the resources given to "central" members of the > community. Which resources are we talking about? We're not talking about "central" members, but a large majority of the members. Alex, it's not selfish to argue for what the majority wants. Ignoring the majority for some vague notion of geographic dominance, or for maintaining status quo, or whatever is driving this, is illogical and self-defeating for the club. And again, I wonder about the decision-making process here. Is it that Aahz decides, even though he doesn't go to meetings? And this is because he runs the email list? JJ has volunteered to do the email list because Aahz has complained that he doesn't have time. What happened with that? I seem to be missing the sense in all this. Aahz, where are you coming from? Marilyn p.s. Is there anyone willing to tape at Ironport? If not, then that's another minus for Ironport. > > If there are only five or ten people who can get to IronPort but not > Google, that changes the equation a bit -- it certainly is possible to > reach a point of diminishing returns. > -- > Aahz (aahz at pythoncraft.com) http://www.pythoncraft.com/ > > "I saw `cout' being shifted "Hello world" times to the left and stopped > right there." --Steve Gonedes > _______________________________________________ > Baypiggies mailing list > Baypiggies at python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies From DennisR at dair.com Sat Jun 3 00:17:20 2006 From: DennisR at dair.com (Dennis Reinhardt) Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2006 15:17:20 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Videotaping presentations In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20060602150648.00c01420@localhost> At 01:06 PM 6/2/2006, Marilyn Davis wrote: >On Fri, 2 Jun 2006, Mike Cheponis wrote: >MC> Many other groups, as a matter of course, tape their presentations and >put them up on Google video. This is a real service especially when >people can't make meetings, and to keep the large percentage of the email >list up-to-date. Watching the video while simultaneously flipping the >slides is almost as good as having been there. > > >MD> It would be good to ask for a volunteer for this on the email list, so >I'm forwarding there. In addition to a volunteer (none forthcoming as yet), I think proper equipment is an needed. The videotaping should preferably be done from a camera mounted so as to *not* obstruct the view of those attending. Acoustic issues in the Dungeon need to be resolved so that a clean recording is obtained. This may require miking the speaker(s). Exactly who holds the copyright? This "group" has no legal structure to hold anything. Google may record further meetings at their site and so the recording volunteer is needed only at IronPort site. ---------------------------------- | Dennis | DennisR at dair.com | | Reinhardt | Powerful Anti-Spam | ---------------------------------- From mech422 at gmail.com Sat Jun 3 01:11:01 2006 From: mech422 at gmail.com (steve hindle) Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2006 16:11:01 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Meeting location (was Videotaping presentations) In-Reply-To: <20060602223416.6F68E1E400D@bag.python.org> References: <20060602223416.6F68E1E400D@bag.python.org> Message-ID: <9a0545880606021611r738ab14cg6f6b770cb23a516c@mail.gmail.com> I realize I'm a new member, but I can't help feeling the focus of this conversation might be skewed. Rather then trying to figure out what 'works' for everyone in terms of location, facilities, etc., perhaps we should be trying to figure out how to maximize resources that everyone _can_ access. For instance, the videotaping strikes me as a great idea as it allows people to see the presentations _when_ they want, as well as where. Can't make a meeting because of a scheduling conflict - catch the video :-) Google might even have facilities for webcasting.. Another thing that might be neat, is forums on the websites for topics that might not be 'general interest' enough for the mailing list. Sort of informal SIG's or BOF type things. (of course, we could use 'sub-lists' and do it via email as well...) In short, rather then focusing on issues that very likely have no 'perfect' solution, perhaps we should focus on things that could improve the 'bay piggies experience' for everyone? In that spirit, I think the video taping is a great start.... Steve On 6/2/06, Marilyn Davis wrote: > ------- On Friday, June 2, 2006 aahz at pythoncraft.com wrote: > > > On Fri, Jun 02, 2006, Marilyn Davis wrote: > >> ----- On Friday, June 2, 2006 aahz at pythoncraft.com wrote: > >>> On Fri, Jun 02, 2006, Marilyn Davis wrote: > >>>> > >>>> Again, what is the reason for having the confusion and complication of > >>>> two meeting sites when one has creature-discomforts and is harder to > >>>> reach for many more people? > >>> > >>> Do other people agree that IronPort is really that much more > >>> uncomfortable than Google? Believe me, I'm extremely sympathetic to the > >>> issue of acoustics, but there have also been a number of people who can > >>> get to IronPort but not Google. As long as that is a significant > >>> population, I don't think we should cut them out. Perhaps finding > >> > >> I thought that Stephen's survey discovered that there are many more > >> people who can get to Google but not Ironport than vice-versa. And I > >> think it showed that the further north and east, the fewer people. > > > >>From my POV, it wouldn't matter if there were five hundred people who > > could get to Google but not IronPort, as long as there are at least ten > > or fifteen people who can get to IronPort but not Google. And, yes, I'm > > Really? I don't understand that point of view. > > > speaking as someone for whom Google is much easier to reach than > > IronPort. BayPIGgies is for the SF Bay Area Python community, and I > > That's what I mean about geography. I don't understand why one club would claim to be *the* club for the whole bay area. It seems a bit greedy. If this club, which has its geographic center determined by the fact that meetings were at Stanford for so long, relinguishes its claim on so much geography, there would be an opening for more clubs in the bay area. I'd rather encourage more clubs, and encourage speakers to travel, than to expect the audience to travel around the bay. > > If there are 10 or 15 people who can get to Ironport, but not Google, maybe our speakers would be willing to do both places, saving lots of gas and collective travel time. > > > think an important aspect of community is making community resources > > available to as many different members of the community as possible, > > rather than maximizing the resources given to "central" members of the > > community. > > Which resources are we talking about? We're not talking about "central" members, but a large majority of the members. Alex, it's not selfish to argue for what the majority wants. Ignoring the majority for some vague notion of geographic dominance, or for maintaining status quo, or whatever is driving this, is illogical and self-defeating for the club. > > And again, I wonder about the decision-making process here. Is it that Aahz decides, even though he doesn't go to meetings? And this is because he runs the email list? JJ has volunteered to do the email list because Aahz has complained that he doesn't have time. What happened with that? > > I seem to be missing the sense in all this. Aahz, where are you coming from? > > Marilyn > > p.s. Is there anyone willing to tape at Ironport? If not, then that's another minus for Ironport. > > > > > > If there are only five or ten people who can get to IronPort but not > > Google, that changes the equation a bit -- it certainly is possible to > > reach a point of diminishing returns. > > -- > > Aahz (aahz at pythoncraft.com) http://www.pythoncraft.com/ > > > > "I saw `cout' being shifted "Hello world" times to the left and stopped > > right there." --Steve Gonedes > > _______________________________________________ > > Baypiggies mailing list > > Baypiggies at python.org > > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies > > _______________________________________________ > Baypiggies mailing list > Baypiggies at python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies > From jjinux at gmail.com Sat Jun 3 01:13:21 2006 From: jjinux at gmail.com (Shannon -jj Behrens) Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2006 16:13:21 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Meeting location (was Videotaping presentations) In-Reply-To: <20060602223416.6F68E1E400D@bag.python.org> References: <20060602223416.6F68E1E400D@bag.python.org> Message-ID: On 6/2/06, Marilyn Davis wrote: > ------- On Friday, June 2, 2006 aahz at pythoncraft.com wrote: > > > On Fri, Jun 02, 2006, Marilyn Davis wrote: > >> ----- On Friday, June 2, 2006 aahz at pythoncraft.com wrote: > >>> On Fri, Jun 02, 2006, Marilyn Davis wrote: > >>>> > >>>> Again, what is the reason for having the confusion and complication of > >>>> two meeting sites when one has creature-discomforts and is harder to > >>>> reach for many more people? > >>> > >>> Do other people agree that IronPort is really that much more > >>> uncomfortable than Google? Believe me, I'm extremely sympathetic to the > >>> issue of acoustics, but there have also been a number of people who can > >>> get to IronPort but not Google. As long as that is a significant > >>> population, I don't think we should cut them out. Perhaps finding > >> > >> I thought that Stephen's survey discovered that there are many more > >> people who can get to Google but not Ironport than vice-versa. And I > >> think it showed that the further north and east, the fewer people. > > > >>From my POV, it wouldn't matter if there were five hundred people who > > could get to Google but not IronPort, as long as there are at least ten > > or fifteen people who can get to IronPort but not Google. And, yes, I'm > > Really? I don't understand that point of view. Aahz would rather make all of the people happy some of the time than some of the people happy all of the time. I agree with him. > > speaking as someone for whom Google is much easier to reach than > > IronPort. BayPIGgies is for the SF Bay Area Python community, and I > > That's what I mean about geography. I don't understand why one club would claim to be *the* club for the whole bay area. Because splitting the club in two risks losing critical mass. There are only so many pythonistas and so many speakers willing to speak. > It seems a bit greedy. If this club, which has its geographic center determined by the fact that meetings were at Stanford for so long, relinguishes its claim on so much geography, there would be an opening for more clubs in the bay area. I'd rather encourage more clubs, and encourage speakers to travel, than to expect the audience to travel around the bay. I wish it were the case that I could just create clubs wherever and people would come, but I don't think it's the case. I don't think that BayPiggies is being "greedy" at all. > If there are 10 or 15 people who can get to Ironport, but not Google, maybe our speakers would be willing to do both places, saving lots of gas and collective travel time. Sure, if they were getting paid ;) The problem with good programmers is that they don't have much free time. Furthermore, larger groups means better networking. Imagine if the East Bay people never got to hang out with Guido and Alex just because they were in the East Bay instead of in Silicon Valley! > > think an important aspect of community is making community resources > > available to as many different members of the community as possible, > > rather than maximizing the resources given to "central" members of the > > community. > > Which resources are we talking about? We're not talking about "central" members, but a large majority of the members. Alex, it's not selfish to argue for what the majority wants. Ignoring the majority for some vague notion of geographic dominance, or for maintaining status quo, or whatever is driving this, is illogical and self-defeating for the club. > > And again, I wonder about the decision-making process here. Is it that Aahz decides, even though he doesn't go to meetings? And this is because he runs the email list? JJ has volunteered to do the email list because Aahz has complained that he doesn't have time. What happened with that? It fizzled. Aahz argued that splitting the mailing list had in his past experience been a bad idea, and I figured that was a reasonable argument. The problem went away because there's been a lot less traffic lately :) > I seem to be missing the sense in all this. Aahz, where are you coming from? See my very first comment. > p.s. Is there anyone willing to tape at Ironport? If not, then that's another minus for Ironport. We hold the Bay Area FreeBSD users' group at IronPort, and we tape that. I've just been too lazy^H^H^H^Hbusy to take care of it myself. Best Regards, -jj From mech422 at gmail.com Sat Jun 3 01:16:42 2006 From: mech422 at gmail.com (steve hindle) Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2006 16:16:42 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Videotaping presentations In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20060602150648.00c01420@localhost> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20060602150648.00c01420@localhost> Message-ID: <9a0545880606021616o26c46565vf444410403e7f249@mail.gmail.com> On 6/2/06, Dennis Reinhardt wrote: > Exactly who holds the copyright? This "group" has no legal structure to > hold anything. > Eh - lets have the speaker and videographer sign a form assigning all rights to the BDFL - a la the FSF copyright assignments :-) Or just print out some 'canned' creative commons licenses that people can sign... Given that its not likely there will be multiple 'releases' of a presentation, we shouldn't have to worry about the license changing at the next rev. :-) Steve Steve From jjinux at gmail.com Sat Jun 3 01:18:32 2006 From: jjinux at gmail.com (Shannon -jj Behrens) Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2006 16:18:32 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Videotaping presentations (was Re: June 8 meeting at Ironport 7:30-9:00) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > If the > acoustics issue doesn't budge the group (which seems rather heartless > and inconsiderate [perhaps blamable on our name?]) +1 for flamebait ;) BTW, I'm partially deaf too ;) From marilyn at deliberate.com Sat Jun 3 01:23:36 2006 From: marilyn at deliberate.com (Marilyn Davis) Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2006 16:23:36 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Meeting location (was Videotaping presentations) Message-ID: <20060602232339.41C981E400D@bag.python.org> ----- On Friday, June 2, 2006 jjinux at gmail.com wrote: > On 6/2/06, Marilyn Davis wrote: >> ------- On Friday, June 2, 2006 aahz at pythoncraft.com wrote: >> >> > On Fri, Jun 02, 2006, Marilyn Davis wrote: >> >> ----- On Friday, June 2, 2006 aahz at pythoncraft.com wrote: >> >>> On Fri, Jun 02, 2006, Marilyn Davis wrote: >> >>>> >> >>>> Again, what is the reason for having the confusion and complication of >> >>>> two meeting sites when one has creature-discomforts and is harder to >> >>>> reach for many more people? >> >>> >> >>> Do other people agree that IronPort is really that much more >> >>> uncomfortable than Google? Believe me, I'm extremely sympathetic to the >> >>> issue of acoustics, but there have also been a number of people who can >> >>> get to IronPort but not Google. As long as that is a significant >> >>> population, I don't think we should cut them out. Perhaps finding >> >> >> >> I thought that Stephen's survey discovered that there are many more >> >> people who can get to Google but not Ironport than vice-versa. And I >> >> think it showed that the further north and east, the fewer people. >> > >> >>From my POV, it wouldn't matter if there were five hundred people who >> > could get to Google but not IronPort, as long as there are at least ten >> > or fifteen people who can get to IronPort but not Google. And, yes, I'm >> >> Really? I don't understand that point of view. > > Aahz would rather make all of the people happy some of the time than > some of the people happy all of the time. I agree with him. > >> > speaking as someone for whom Google is much easier to reach than >> > IronPort. BayPIGgies is for the SF Bay Area Python community, and I >> >> That's what I mean about geography. I don't understand why one club would > claim to be *the* club for the whole bay area. > > Because splitting the club in two risks losing critical mass. There > are only so many pythonistas and so many speakers willing to speak. > >> It seems a bit greedy. If this club, which has its geographic center > determined by the fact that meetings were at Stanford for so long, > relinguishes its claim on so much geography, there would be an opening for > more clubs in the bay area. I'd rather encourage more clubs, and encourage > speakers to travel, than to expect the audience to travel around the bay. > > I wish it were the case that I could just create clubs wherever and > people would come, but I don't think it's the case. I don't think > that BayPiggies is being "greedy" at all. > >> If there are 10 or 15 people who can get to Ironport, but not Google, maybe > our speakers would be willing to do both places, saving lots of gas and > collective travel time. > > Sure, if they were getting paid ;) The problem with good programmers > is that they don't have much free time. Furthermore, larger groups > means better networking. Imagine if the East Bay people never got to > hang out with Guido and Alex just because they were in the East Bay > instead of in Silicon Valley! > >> > think an important aspect of community is making community resources >> > available to as many different members of the community as possible, >> > rather than maximizing the resources given to "central" members of the >> > community. >> >> Which resources are we talking about? We're not talking about "central" > members, but a large majority of the members. Alex, it's not selfish to > argue for what the majority wants. Ignoring the majority for some vague > notion of geographic dominance, or for maintaining status quo, or whatever > is driving this, is illogical and self-defeating for the club. >> >> And again, I wonder about the decision-making process here. Is it that Aahz > decides, even though he doesn't go to meetings? And this is because he runs > the email list? JJ has volunteered to do the email list because Aahz has > complained that he doesn't have time. What happened with that? > > It fizzled. Aahz argued that splitting the mailing list had in his > past experience been a bad idea, and I figured that was a reasonable > argument. The problem went away because there's been a lot less > traffic lately :) > >> I seem to be missing the sense in all this. Aahz, where are you coming from? > > See my very first comment. > >> p.s. Is there anyone willing to tape at Ironport? If not, then that's > another minus for Ironport. > > We hold the Bay Area FreeBSD users' group at IronPort, and we tape > that. I've just been too lazy^H^H^H^Hbusy to take care of it myself. If the meeting could be taped, I think we'd make all the people happy all the time and truly provide a resource for the whole bay area, even the world. I know I'd be happy enough with that. It just seems so illogical to have a speaker where so many people can't go and there is no plan for taping when instead we can have the speaker where taping is automatic and more people can go, and the acoustics are better. Can anyone make the Ironport taping happen? If not, can we hold off on meeting at Ironport until we have the taping thing under control? Can we hold the June 8 meeting at Google if there's no taping plan? Marilyn > > Best Regards, > -jj From donnamsnow at gmail.com Sat Jun 3 01:28:28 2006 From: donnamsnow at gmail.com (Donna M. Snow) Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2006 16:28:28 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] logo Message-ID: <4480C99C.7090205@gmail.com> Hi, Starting to work on the Plone site..playing around with a "logo" for the site... http://www.baypiggies.net/zope/pr (like it.. hate it.. improvements??) Also, what categories.. areas do we want on the site.. at the moment the navigation links are anchors to content within the same page.. not separate sections.. here is where we determine what sections we want... I know Tony would like somewhere to house Reviews so we'll have a section on Book Reviews... So right now...I think we probs should have... Home Meetings (includes Dennis's agendas - and sub-section for locations and directions) Book Reviews Forum? Subscription Management (mailing list..etc) History or About the group?? Resources (links to Python related information.. etc - could be where we upload videotaped sessions) anything else you can think of....? respond offlist please :-) Donna From marilyn at deliberate.com Sat Jun 3 01:41:02 2006 From: marilyn at deliberate.com (Marilyn Davis) Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2006 16:41:02 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Videotaping presentations (was Re: June 8 meeting at Ironport 7:30-9:00) Message-ID: <20060602234105.6FD6C1E400D@bag.python.org> ----- On Friday, June 2, 2006 jjinux at gmail.com wrote: >> If the >> acoustics issue doesn't budge the group (which seems rather heartless >> and inconsiderate [perhaps blamable on our name?]) > > +1 for flamebait ;) I have on my asbestos glasses. Is the "heartless and inconsiderate" flamebait? Or is mentioning "the name" flamebait? Or reminding us that there is a connection between our behavior and the labels we assume? If we ought not flame, and we ought not flamebait, how about flamebait-bait? I think flamebait is ok since it's not flames. I don't believe people should avoid legitimate polite confrontation about their disagreements. And no one bit the bait -- so far. :^) > > BTW, I'm partially deaf too ;) I remember. I have one excellent ear, and one that is only an earring hanger and noise amplifier(nerve problem), so I get confused by extraneous noises and can't tell where they come from and mix them with the speaker's voice. Darned difficult in that basement. See you next meeting, I hope, Marilyn From marilyn at deliberate.com Sat Jun 3 01:47:50 2006 From: marilyn at deliberate.com (Marilyn Davis) Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2006 16:47:50 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Fw: Re: logo Message-ID: <20060602234752.070381E400D@bag.python.org> ----- On Friday, June 2, 2006 donnamsnow at gmail.com wrote: > Hi, > > Starting to work on the Plone site..playing around with a "logo" for the > site... > > http://www.baypiggies.net/zope/pr (like it.. hate it.. improvements??) Love it. Smiley friendly snakie. I notice that you called us the "silicon valley" ... Of course I love that too. I think it is the truth, and stating what we really are avoids frustrating people in SF, Marin, Berkeley etc. and suggests that they might need to gather up a convenient site and invite speakers closer to home. Thanks Donna. I'm glad you're feeling better. Marilyn > > Also, what categories.. areas do we want on the site.. at the moment the > navigation links are anchors to content within the same page.. not > separate sections.. here is where we determine what sections we want... > > I know Tony would like somewhere to house Reviews so we'll have a > section on Book Reviews... > > So right now...I think we probs should have... > > Home > Meetings (includes Dennis's agendas - and sub-section for locations and > directions) > Book Reviews > Forum? > Subscription Management (mailing list..etc) > History or About the group?? > Resources (links to Python related information.. etc - could be where we > upload videotaped sessions) > > anything else you can think of....? > > respond offlist please :-) > > Donna > > > _______________________________________________ > Baypiggies mailing list > Baypiggies at python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies From DennisR at dair.com Sat Jun 3 01:41:43 2006 From: DennisR at dair.com (Dennis Reinhardt) Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2006 16:41:43 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Meeting location (was Videotaping presentations) In-Reply-To: <20060602232339.41C981E400D@bag.python.org> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20060602163747.00c028c0@localhost> >Can anyone make the Ironport taping happen? >If not, can we hold off on meeting at Ironport until we have the taping >thing under control? Can we hold the June 8 meeting at Google if there's >no taping plan? The taping at Google is not yet under control. The last meeting was not taped. The meeting has been announced and posted. There is a plan to put the materials up. I'll see you all at IronPort June 8 (6 short days from now). Dennis ---------------------------------- | Dennis | DennisR at dair.com | | Reinhardt | Powerful Anti-Spam | ---------------------------------- From aahz at pythoncraft.com Sat Jun 3 01:55:50 2006 From: aahz at pythoncraft.com (Aahz) Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2006 16:55:50 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Videotaping presentations In-Reply-To: <9a0545880606021616o26c46565vf444410403e7f249@mail.gmail.com> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20060602150648.00c01420@localhost> <9a0545880606021616o26c46565vf444410403e7f249@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20060602235550.GA18635@panix.com> On Fri, Jun 02, 2006, steve hindle wrote: > On 6/2/06, Dennis Reinhardt wrote: >> >> Exactly who holds the copyright? This "group" has no legal structure to >> hold anything. > > Eh - lets have the speaker and videographer sign a form assigning all > rights to the BDFL - a la the FSF copyright assignments :-) > > Or just print out some 'canned' creative commons licenses that people > can sign... +1 Creative Commons -- I believe that's what PyCon prefers, too. -- Aahz (aahz at pythoncraft.com) <*> http://www.pythoncraft.com/ "I saw `cout' being shifted "Hello world" times to the left and stopped right there." --Steve Gonedes From rstephe at sun.science.wayne.edu Sat Jun 3 07:35:51 2006 From: rstephe at sun.science.wayne.edu (Robert Stephenson) Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2006 22:35:51 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] logo In-Reply-To: <4480C99C.7090205@gmail.com> References: <4480C99C.7090205@gmail.com> Message-ID: The logo is cute, Donna. All you need now is a smaller version for the favicon. - rob On Jun 2, 2006, at 4:28 PM, Donna M. Snow wrote: > Hi, > > Starting to work on the Plone site..playing around with a "logo" > for the > site... > > http://www.baypiggies.net/zope/pr (like it.. hate it.. improvements??) * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * Dr. Robert S. Stephenson * E-learning Architect * rstephe at alumni.princeton.edu * (415) 341-3784 * http://sun.science.wayne.edu/~rstephe * * Community Manager * Global Education & Learning Community on Java.net * http://gelc.org * * Chief Architect and Principal Investigator * http://OpenCourse.Org * Supporting virtual communities of e-learning developers. * * Founder * The Harvey Project * Open Course Physiology on the Web * http://HarveyProject.org * * Was I helpful? Let others know: * http://rate.affero.net/rstephe * * gpg key fingerprint: * 4255 FB43 17C8 2B80 8074 7DB6 7DD7 939B F3F6 CB92 * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From spmcinerney at hotmail.com Sun Jun 4 02:25:18 2006 From: spmcinerney at hotmail.com (Stephen McInerney) Date: Sat, 03 Jun 2006 17:25:18 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Meeting location (was Videotaping presentations) / slides In-Reply-To: <20060602211332.9EB511E400D@bag.python.org> Message-ID: > > On Fri, Jun 02, 2006, Marilyn Davis wrote: > >I thought that Stephen's survey discovered that there are many more people >who can get to Google but not Ironport than vice-versa. And I think it >showed that the further north and east, the fewer people. > >I don't seem to be able to find the survey online by looking at the >archives of talks. Am I missing something obvious? Stephen, can you direct >me? I haven't posted the survey results yet, due to extreme pressure of work. Expect it within a week. I collated the survey results on how convenient each person rated each of 5 locations on a scale of 0..4, and the interpretation of those distributions is up for grabs by all of you. I also have to revise the ranked list of people's interests (103 people ranking 39 interests on a scale of 0..4), since that can also be interpreted in several ways. Apologies again for the delay. Stephen From dave at krondo.com Sun Jun 4 18:39:37 2006 From: dave at krondo.com (Dave Peticolas) Date: Sun, 04 Jun 2006 09:39:37 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Job - Industrial Light & Magic Message-ID: <44830CC9.60807@krondo.com> Industrial Light & Magic -- Software Tools Engineer This position develops and maintains a large body of Python code related to the support of CG and visual effects production for ILM and other Lucas companies. The projects include several large applications and numerous smaller scripts and utilities. You will be working on file management, process automation, workflow tracking, and miscellaneous support tools. You will NOT be doing any CG graphics programming or render pipeline programming. You will work with a team of programmers in a fast and flexible work environment. You will also work directly with users to obtain new requirements and fix problems. Requirements * Bachelor's degree in Computer Science or other technical degree with 1+ years experience in a software development environment required. Demonstrated ability to serve as an effective contributor on mid to large scale development projects. * Expertise in Python * SQL and relational database experience. * Experience with GUI programming helpful, especially GTK * Experience with Twisted and PEAK is a bonus. * Proficient in UNIX. Windows proficiency a bonus. * Experience with computer graphics production a bonus. * Familiar with software development practices including unit testing. * Good communication and organization skills. Use this link to apply: http://www.lucasfilm.com/employment/jobs/lfl/it/job20060511.html thanks, dave From mrbmahoney at gmail.com Mon Jun 5 20:43:31 2006 From: mrbmahoney at gmail.com (Brian Mahoney) Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2006 11:43:31 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Dinner Announcement - Thursday, June 8, 6 pm Message-ID: <5538c19b0606051143m3c0b3229r5da7bb8c17b516c9@mail.gmail.com> I can coordinate dinner this Thursday, before the BayPIGgies meeting, at Cafe Grillades (formerly Crepes du Monde) in the Bayhill Shopping Center, several blocks from the IronPort meeting location. Cafe Grillades has a web site with information about both their locations, SF and San Bruno. We will be at San Bruno ! http://www.cafegrillades.com Here is a page for directions and a link to a map. http://www.cafegrillades.com/contact.html Cafe Grillades 815 Cherry Avenue Suite 16 San Bruno. CA 94066 Phone: 650 589-3778 I've made reservations under "Python" for 6pm Thursday. If you wish to join us for dinner please e-mail me by 3 pm Thursday (earlier is better) so I confirm the headcount. From nnorwitz at gmail.com Wed Jun 7 02:53:22 2006 From: nnorwitz at gmail.com (Neal Norwitz) Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2006 17:53:22 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Organizing meetings at Google Message-ID: I'd like to introduce everyone to Leslie Hawthorne. She works at Google in the Open Source Program Office and will be helping us organize the Baypiggies meetings. I've already let her know some things that we would like to do such as reserving the room, getting attendee names so we can print badges ahead of time, and trying to print signs for the meetings to give contact info in case you are late. If you have questions or suggestions, you can email her. She should be subscribed to this list too. Thanks Leslie! n From todd at agulnick.com Thu Jun 8 01:37:45 2006 From: todd at agulnick.com (Todd Agulnick) Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2006 16:37:45 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Contract Job - Python-Capable Sr. Sys Admin Message-ID: <44876349.1030703@agulnick.com> Senior Systems Administrator - Contractor Foxmarks, LLC, located in downtown San Francisco and housed with Creative Commons and the Open Source Applications Foundation, currently has a 3 - 6 month contract position open for a Senior Systems Administrator. In this role you will build monitoring and automation systems for the Foxmarks production web service. Initially you will work with Foxmarks' IT staff to determine requirements and then assume sole responsibility for implementation. Requirements: * 3+ years in Linux system administration for consumer-facing production systems; * 3+ years scripting experience in Python and Bourne Shell; * Demonstrated ability to develop and hand-off completed systems, including documentation; * Familiarity with Debian, Nagios, Tomcat, Apache+HTTP a plus; * Ability to be on-site in our San Francisco office one day/week for review, coordination, and collaborative working sessions (telecommute on other days). We would dearly like to implement this system in Python -- a language that we love and believe to be much more maintainable than the alternatives. Alas, we haven't had any luck finding people with the right combination of SysAdmin and Python skills -- SysAdmin and perl, on the other hand, seems to be ubiquitous. Please, stop us before we code again in perl: submit your resume to jobs at foxmarks.com -Todd From marilyn at deliberate.com Thu Jun 8 01:52:21 2006 From: marilyn at deliberate.com (Marilyn Davis) Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2006 16:52:21 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] July: IDE Demos Message-ID: <20060607235225.715161E4013@bag.python.org> Hi, It's about time to get serious about preparing for the July talks. I think, but I may be wrong, that our last list of volunteers speakers is: > > Solid volunteers: PythonWin Tony C > > > >> ActiveState -> ? > > > >> Komodo -> ? > > > >> Wing IDE -> ? Mike > > > >> jEdit -> Ilia? > > > >> Boa Constructor -> anyone? (Drew maybe?) > > > >> BlackAdder -> ? > > > >> PyDev(Eclipse) -> ? > > > >> SPE -> ? > > > >> PyDev -> ? > > > >> Eric3 -> ? > > > >> plain old IDLE -> ? > > > >> plain old emacs -> ? Marilyn > > > >> plain old vi (+ctags) -> Keith or Aahz? JJ & Keith > > > >> Jimmy you use Scite + enhancements don't you? > > If anyone would like to volunteer to show us another IDE, especially IDLE, that would be appreciated. If anyone wants to chicken out ... too late! :^) In any case, in a day or two, I'll contact these people to put our heads together to work out the details. Marilyn From lhawthorn at google.com Thu Jun 8 03:00:29 2006 From: lhawthorn at google.com (Leslie Hawthorn) Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2006 18:00:29 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] wiki for BayPIGgies meetings at Google Message-ID: <4869cee70606071800j5e950605gac0f983a59e6859f@mail.google.com> Hello everyone, I've created a wiki page with some general guidance for those attending BayPIGgies meetings at Google. Please plan to use the wiki for pre-registration if you'll be attending. http://wiki.python.org/moin/BayPiggiesGoogleMeetings Cheers, LH -- Leslie Hawthorn Open Source Program Coordinator Google Inc. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mail.python.org/pipermail/baypiggies/attachments/20060607/e23d08b6/attachment.html From DennisR at dair.com Thu Jun 8 03:19:30 2006 From: DennisR at dair.com (Dennis Reinhardt) Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2006 18:19:30 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] wiki for BayPIGgies meetings at Google In-Reply-To: <4869cee70606071800j5e950605gac0f983a59e6859f@mail.google.c om> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20060607181135.00bfe920@localhost> All: Please be aware that the JULY meeting is being held at Google. This is JUNE. Tomorrow night's JUNE meeting is being held at IronPort. Leslie: thanks for putting up the Wiki page. This relieves me of badge signup (sniff, sniff). I already made some on-page changes relative to begin/end time Dennis ---------------------------------- | Dennis | DennisR at dair.com | | Reinhardt | Powerful Anti-Spam | ---------------------------------- From zovirl1 at sbcglobal.net Thu Jun 8 04:49:27 2006 From: zovirl1 at sbcglobal.net (Mark Ivey) Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2006 19:49:27 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] July: IDE Demos In-Reply-To: <20060607235225.715161E4013@bag.python.org> References: <20060607235225.715161E4013@bag.python.org> Message-ID: <617CCE91-723F-4B50-BDB5-24EE0D1ED222@sbcglobal.net> On Jun 7, 2006, at 4:52 PM, Marilyn Davis wrote: > Hi, > > It's about time to get serious about preparing for the July talks. > > I think, but I may be wrong, that our last list of volunteers > speakers is: > >>> Solid volunteers: > PythonWin Tony C >>>>>> ActiveState -> ? >>>>>> Komodo -> ? >>>>>> Wing IDE -> ? Mike >>>>>> jEdit -> Ilia? >>>>>> Boa Constructor -> anyone? (Drew maybe?) >>>>>> BlackAdder -> ? >>>>>> PyDev(Eclipse) -> ? >>>>>> SPE -> ? >>>>>> PyDev -> ? >>>>>> Eric3 -> ? >>>>>> plain old IDLE -> ? >>>>>> plain old emacs -> ? Marilyn >>>>>> plain old vi (+ctags) -> Keith or Aahz? JJ & Keith >>>>>> Jimmy you use Scite + enhancements don't you? >>> > > If anyone would like to volunteer to show us another IDE, > especially IDLE, that would be appreciated. If anyone wants to > chicken out ... too late! :^) > > In any case, in a day or two, I'll contact these people to put our > heads together to work out the details. > > Marilyn I don't see Xcode on the list. I might be able to present that. Marilyn, could you include me when you figure out the details? -Mark From max at theslimmers.net Thu Jun 8 02:22:31 2006 From: max at theslimmers.net (Max Slimmer) Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2006 17:22:31 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Dinner Announcement - Thursday, June 8, 6 pm Message-ID: <200606080022.k580MWfR001878@a.mail.sonic.net> I am new to the list, and am planning on attending the meeting tomorrow, would love to join you for dinner. Max Max Slimmer email: max at TheSlimmers.net phone: 707.823.4156 cell: 707.535.9075 From DennisR at dair.com Thu Jun 8 17:46:46 2006 From: DennisR at dair.com (Dennis Reinhardt) Date: Thu, 08 Jun 2006 08:46:46 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] wiki for BayPIGgies meetings at Google In-Reply-To: <44884416.2070701@mvista.com> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20060607181135.00bfe920@localhost> <5.1.0.14.0.20060607181135.00bfe920@localhost> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20060608084327.00c03008@localhost> e: >...is there any registration for the meeting going on tonight? For the meeting, no. Just show up. For the dinner before the meeting (entirely optional), see http://mail.python.org/pipermail/baypiggies/2006-June/000829.html Regards, Dennis ---------------------------------- | Dennis | DennisR at dair.com | | Reinhardt | Powerful Anti-Spam | ---------------------------------- From lhawthorn at google.com Thu Jun 8 17:58:12 2006 From: lhawthorn at google.com (Leslie Hawthorn) Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2006 08:58:12 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] wiki for BayPIGgies meetings at Google In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20060607181135.00bfe920@localhost> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20060607181135.00bfe920@localhost> Message-ID: <4869cee70606080858r426dae31v115664c545414bf2@mail.google.com> On 6/7/06, Dennis Reinhardt wrote: > > > I already made some on-page changes relative to begin/end time > > Dennis > LOL! I also received a message off list asking if we'd be able to pre-print visitor badges for each of you and the answer is "yes!" I'll update the wiki. Cheers, LH -- Leslie Hawthorn Open Source Program Coordinator Google Inc. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mail.python.org/pipermail/baypiggies/attachments/20060608/837173a1/attachment.htm From cvanarsdall at mvista.com Thu Jun 8 17:36:54 2006 From: cvanarsdall at mvista.com (Carl J. Van Arsdall) Date: Thu, 08 Jun 2006 08:36:54 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] wiki for BayPIGgies meetings at Google In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20060607181135.00bfe920@localhost> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20060607181135.00bfe920@localhost> Message-ID: <44884416.2070701@mvista.com> Sorry if this has been asked before, but is there any registration for the meeting going on tonight? I've poked around the website and didn't see anything but felt I should ask anyhow, just in case. Thanks, Carl Dennis Reinhardt wrote: > All: Please be aware that the JULY meeting is being held at Google. This > is JUNE. Tomorrow night's JUNE meeting is being held at IronPort. > > Leslie: thanks for putting up the Wiki page. This relieves me of badge > signup (sniff, sniff). > > I already made some on-page changes relative to begin/end time > > Dennis > ---------------------------------- > | Dennis | DennisR at dair.com | > | Reinhardt | Powerful Anti-Spam | > ---------------------------------- > > _______________________________________________ > Baypiggies mailing list > Baypiggies at python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies > -- Carl J. Van Arsdall cvanarsdall at mvista.com Build and Release MontaVista Software From donnamsnow at gmail.com Thu Jun 8 19:41:00 2006 From: donnamsnow at gmail.com (Donna M. Snow) Date: Thu, 08 Jun 2006 10:41:00 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] wiki for BayPIGgies meetings at Google In-Reply-To: <4869cee70606080858r426dae31v115664c545414bf2@mail.google.com> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20060607181135.00bfe920@localhost> <4869cee70606080858r426dae31v115664c545414bf2@mail.google.com> Message-ID: <4488612C.8@gmail.com> Hi, I'll add a link to this wiki at http://www.baypiggies.net/zope/pr I'm going to start loading content..from the current site http://www.baypiggies.net to the new one... Donna M. Snow Leslie Hawthorn wrote: > On 6/7/06, *Dennis Reinhardt* > wrote: > > > I already made some on-page changes relative to begin/end time > > Dennis > > > LOL! > > I also received a message off list asking if we'd be able to pre-print > visitor badges for each of you and the answer is "yes!" I'll update > the wiki. > > Cheers, > LH > > -- > Leslie Hawthorn > Open Source Program Coordinator > Google Inc. > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > Baypiggies mailing list > Baypiggies at python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies > From markie at ydl.net Thu Jun 8 19:47:43 2006 From: markie at ydl.net (Mark Jaffe) Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2006 10:47:43 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Job opportunity - Build Engineer Message-ID: <1A702E19-815B-4382-B44D-63A1FBCB1473@ydl.net> Hi, I was contacted by a recruiter (internal) this week, but had to pass on the opportunity due to my current full-time situation. I would like to pass this on to the list, in the event someone else is available. I was informed that there was a strong need for Python, although the description does not mention it explicitly: Responsibilities: Work with product development to architect and implement an automated, flexible, and extensible build system (using make / gmake, ANT, shell scripts, etc.) for all STG products Work with product development to architect and implement a configuration management process including creation of tools around our Perforce source-code control system and integration with a bug tracking system Perform product build and unit test across a wide variety of operating systems ? Windows, Solaris, HP-UX, AIX, Linux, etc. Qualifications, Education and Experience: Required: 5+ years experience creating / maintaining complex product build environments ? building multiple layers of dependent products across multiple operating systems 5+ years experience guiding a complex source code version control environment ? understanding the difficulties and advantages to branching, merging, and programmatic interfaces Deep understanding of ?make? and related tools Proven ability to drive multiple projects to successful completion Desired: Experience with C / C++ / Java programming, including an understanding of dynamic vs. static libraries and program linking Experience with Perforce Experience with ANT Experience with UNIX Shell / Perl scripting Understanding of source and environment portability Let me know of your interest and include a resume if this is a good fit. Mark -- Mark Jaffe markie at ydl.net 408-807-2093 (cell) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mail.python.org/pipermail/baypiggies/attachments/20060608/53127b3a/attachment.html From wescpy at gmail.com Fri Jun 9 02:38:35 2006 From: wescpy at gmail.com (w chun) Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2006 17:38:35 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] OSCON coming up (Jul 24-28) Message-ID: <78b3a9580606081738o61ce9832lec05a0ddb1149668@mail.gmail.com> hi all, i won't be able to make it up to the meeting tonite but just wanted to remind folks if they're interested, that the 14th International Python Conference is happening up in Portland next month at O'Reilly's OSCON. IPC/OSCON and PyCon are the 2 US-based Python conferences. For the last X-years, OSCON has been on the west coast, making it easier for us to travel to than PyCon. since BayPIGgies is also a member of the O'Reilly User Group Association, we not only get good discounts off their books, but conferences too. tony, can you find out from our ORA contact what our discount is exactly as well as what the code is that should be used for registration? since there are no Python tutorials geared towards beginners, i will be hosting a Python BOF on Wednesday evening up there. for more info, the just follow the conferences link from http://ora.com to OSCON. cheers, -wesley - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - "Core Python Programming", Prentice Hall, (c)2007,2001 http://corepython.com wesley.j.chun :: wescpy-at-gmail.com python training and technical consulting cyberweb.consulting : silicon valley, ca http://cyberwebconsulting.com From cappy2112 at gmail.com Fri Jun 9 03:51:54 2006 From: cappy2112 at gmail.com (Tony C) Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2006 18:51:54 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] OSCON coming up (Jul 24-28) In-Reply-To: <78b3a9580606081738o61ce9832lec05a0ddb1149668@mail.gmail.com> References: <78b3a9580606081738o61ce9832lec05a0ddb1149668@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <8249c4ac0606081851o3c20294fs6a87208de9a1b690@mail.gmail.com> In response to Wes's inquiry... >>since BayPIGgies is also a member of the O'Reilly User Group >>Association, we not only get good discounts off their books, but >>conferences too. tony, can you find out from our ORA contact what our >>discount is exactly as well as what the code is that should be used >>for registration? >>From Oreilly as of May 2006 Can you please let your members know about the increase in our user group discount? You can post this to your mailing list, web site, or in your newsletter and please make sure you mention this at your next meeting. Get 30% off a single book or 35% off two or more books from O'Reilly, No Starch, Paraglyph, PC Publishing, Pragmatic Bookshelf, SitePoint, or Syngress books you purchase directly from O'Reilly. Just use code DSUG when ordering online or by phone 800-998-9938. Free ground shipping on orders $29.95 or more in the US. DSUG is also the code to use for Convention Registration discounts, but I still have not heard back from Oreilly as to how much. I would speculate that it is the same amount as in previous years. If anyone uses it to register please post the discount amount. The website is undergoing a major overhaul now. (please excuse our dust) The Oreilly Users group discount information and Book Reviews will have a new home in the near future. Tony On 6/8/06, w chun wrote: > > hi all, > > i won't be able to make it up to the meeting tonite but just wanted to > remind folks if they're interested, that the 14th International Python > Conference is happening up in Portland next month at O'Reilly's OSCON. > IPC/OSCON and PyCon are the 2 US-based Python conferences. For the > last X-years, OSCON has been on the west coast, making it easier for > us to travel to than PyCon. > > since BayPIGgies is also a member of the O'Reilly User Group > Association, we not only get good discounts off their books, but > conferences too. tony, can you find out from our ORA contact what our > discount is exactly as well as what the code is that should be used > for registration? > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mail.python.org/pipermail/baypiggies/attachments/20060608/81eecd1e/attachment.html From drewp at bigasterisk.com Fri Jun 9 08:41:48 2006 From: drewp at bigasterisk.com (Drew Perttula) Date: Thu, 08 Jun 2006 23:41:48 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] great talks Message-ID: <1149835308.15507.30.camel@dot.bigasterisk.com> Two excellent talks tonight! Thanks to both presenters. In particular, I was impressed with the enthusiasm behind Mercurial and the results it's leading to, and the ease of getting simple C++ to automatically compile into a usable extension-- not even considering the extra features of NICL. Using distutils was especially clever. In the rest of the evening, some of us got to talking about other cool projects. I'll just list them here in case anyone's bored and wants stuff to look up: RDF and SPARQL don't miss: complex database structures with no schemas or SQL easy-to-debug flat file version of your data can be migrated in and out of a faster database with no information loss or code changes SPARQL queries look almost the same as the original data (in n3 syntax), but with wildcards in the positions that you are querying for py.test don't miss: --looponfailing mode stdout-hiding expression tree expansion darcs don't miss: you can record a patch made of only certain lines or made of a rename (that overlays other patches) well-done nethack-style console UI killer shell completion for zsh/bash zsh don't miss: concise-zsh to clear-python compiler (doesn't actually exist yet) best completion around best line editor (supports multiple lines at once in your shell) best glob modifiers (you'll rarely need the find command, it can be replaced by a few chars) From cappy2112 at gmail.com Fri Jun 9 19:23:05 2006 From: cappy2112 at gmail.com (Tony C) Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2006 10:23:05 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Official OSCON registration discounts- straight from O'reilly Message-ID: <8249c4ac0606091023l66a9bf1cr97504c0fe857868e@mail.gmail.com> This supersedes the message I posted yesterday. This discount code is for OSCON 2006 We issue unique discount codes for each conference. Here is the info for this year: ***OSCON, July 24-28--Portland,OR OSCON, the O'Reilly Open Source Convention, is still where open source rubber meets the road. OSCON happens July 24-28, 2006 in open source hotspot Portland, Oregon, and registration has just opened. Hundreds of sessions and tutorials. Thousands of open source mavericks, brainiacs, hackers, activists, scientists, and their admirers, some in business-casual disguise. Read all about it. Use code "os06dsug" when you register, and receive 15% off the registration price. To register for the conference, go to: -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mail.python.org/pipermail/baypiggies/attachments/20060609/ff044b6d/attachment.htm From ken at seehart.com Sat Jun 10 00:41:44 2006 From: ken at seehart.com (Ken Seehart) Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2006 15:41:44 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Files for the NICL talk. In-Reply-To: <1149835308.15507.30.camel@dot.bigasterisk.com> References: <1149835308.15507.30.camel@dot.bigasterisk.com> Message-ID: <4489F928.2060009@seehart.com> I hope you all enjoyed my presentation. I neglected to post a link to the relevant source files, so here's a link to everything:: http://www.neuralintegrator.com/documentation/ni_book/presentation I've also added BalkTalk comments and editing to the documentation pages, so feel free to add comments, and let me know if you run into any problems with it. - Ken Seehart From DennisR at dair.com Mon Jun 12 18:45:27 2006 From: DennisR at dair.com (Dennis Reinhardt) Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2006 09:45:27 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Seeking August meeting speakers Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20060612093830.00c1a1d8@localhost> The BayPiggies speaking schedule is open for the August and I would like to solicit potential speakers. The total time available is 75 minutes. This time can be split between speakers. At Thursday's meeting on June 8, I talked with someone who could present on using Python to build Linux kernels. Please contact me offlist or onlist if you are still interested in speaking. Regards, Dennis ---------------------------------- | Dennis | DennisR at dair.com | | Reinhardt | Powerful Anti-Spam | ---------------------------------- From rstephe at sun.science.wayne.edu Mon Jun 12 19:50:13 2006 From: rstephe at sun.science.wayne.edu (Robert Stephenson) Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2006 10:50:13 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Files for the Mercurial talk? In-Reply-To: <4489F928.2060009@seehart.com> References: <1149835308.15507.30.camel@dot.bigasterisk.com> <4489F928.2060009@seehart.com> Message-ID: <32643CA0-232C-4668-8268-60F272C53208@sun.science.wayne.edu> That was a great meeting. Does anyone have Bryan O?Sullivan's presentation, or at least his email address. All that's posted on the Baypiggies site is a link to Mercurial presentations, which links back to Baypiggies, etc. - Rob On Jun 9, 2006, at 3:41 PM, Ken Seehart wrote: > I hope you all enjoyed my presentation. I neglected to post a link to > the relevant source files, > so here's a link to everything:: > > http://www.neuralintegrator.com/documentation/ni_book/presentation > > I've also added BalkTalk comments and editing to the documentation > pages, so feel free to > add comments, and let me know if you run into any problems with it. > > - Ken Seehart > > > _______________________________________________ > Baypiggies mailing list > Baypiggies at python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * Dr. Robert S. Stephenson * E-learning Architect * rstephe at alumni.princeton.edu * (415) 341-3784 * http://sun.science.wayne.edu/~rstephe * * Community Manager * Global Education & Learning Community on Java.net * http://gelc.org * * Chief Architect and Principal Investigator * http://OpenCourse.Org * Supporting virtual communities of e-learning developers. * * Founder * The Harvey Project * Open Course Physiology on the Web * http://HarveyProject.org * * Was I helpful? Let others know: * http://rate.affero.net/rstephe * * gpg key fingerprint: * 4255 FB43 17C8 2B80 8074 7DB6 7DD7 939B F3F6 CB92 * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From bos at serpentine.com Mon Jun 12 20:06:05 2006 From: bos at serpentine.com (Bryan O'Sullivan) Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2006 11:06:05 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Files for the Mercurial talk? In-Reply-To: <32643CA0-232C-4668-8268-60F272C53208@sun.science.wayne.edu> References: <1149835308.15507.30.camel@dot.bigasterisk.com> <4489F928.2060009@seehart.com> <32643CA0-232C-4668-8268-60F272C53208@sun.science.wayne.edu> Message-ID: <1150135565.4339.2.camel@chalcedony.pathscale.com> On Mon, 2006-06-12 at 10:50 -0700, Robert Stephenson wrote: > That was a great meeting. Does anyone have Bryan O?Sullivan's > presentation, or at least his email address. All that's posted on > the Baypiggies site is a link to Mercurial presentations, which links > back to Baypiggies, etc. Duh, I forgot to post the slides, sorry. I'll post them in a little while. References: <1149835308.15507.30.camel@dot.bigasterisk.com> <4489F928.2060009@seehart.com> <32643CA0-232C-4668-8268-60F272C53208@sun.science.wayne.edu> <1150135565.4339.2.camel@chalcedony.pathscale.com> Message-ID: <1150149181.4339.14.camel@chalcedony.pathscale.com> On Mon, 2006-06-12 at 11:06 -0700, Bryan O'Sullivan wrote: > Duh, I forgot to post the slides, sorry. I'll post them in a little > while. OK, see http://www.selenic.com/mercurial/wiki/index.cgi/Presentations for a link to the PDF and ODP files. References: <5.1.0.14.0.20060612093830.00c1a1d8@localhost> Message-ID: <448DEEAF.5000809@dreid.org> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Dennis Reinhardt wrote: > The BayPiggies speaking schedule is open for the August and I would like to > solicit potential speakers. The total time available is 75 minutes. This > time can be split between speakers. > > At Thursday's meeting on June 8, I talked with someone who could present on > using Python to build Linux kernels. Please contact me offlist or onlist > if you are still interested in speaking. If there is sufficient interest I'd be willing to give a talk on Twisted.Web2[0]. In particular what it is capable of, where it is going, how it differs from Twisted.Web[1], what all this means for Nevow[2]. Of course I'd try to include a thorough summary of Twisted[3] for those unfamiliar with the project. I don't think I'd be comfortable eating a whole 75 minutes, but I'd be willing to do up to 30 with 5 or 10 minutes of Q&A. I must warn you however, public speaking has never been my strong suit, but I think it's time to come out of the dark rooms in which Twisted.Web2 development has been taking place and see if anyone actually cares. :) - -David Reid - -- "Usually the protocol is this: I appoint someone for a task, which they are not qualified to do. Then, they have to fight a bear if they don't want to do it." -- Glyph Lefkowitz -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.3 (Darwin) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFEje59rsrO6aeULcgRAmBUAJ9rPsC19tAXPtpvQvRU3+oY0Z5F8gCgjv17 Adbxpq75zMv5BQT/NxUmNWc= =rvZa -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From jjinux at gmail.com Tue Jun 13 01:33:42 2006 From: jjinux at gmail.com (Shannon -jj Behrens) Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2006 16:33:42 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Seeking August meeting speakers In-Reply-To: <448DEEAF.5000809@dreid.org> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20060612093830.00c1a1d8@localhost> <448DEEAF.5000809@dreid.org> Message-ID: On 6/12/06, David Reid wrote: > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 > > Dennis Reinhardt wrote: > > The BayPiggies speaking schedule is open for the August and I would like to > > solicit potential speakers. The total time available is 75 minutes. This > > time can be split between speakers. > > > > At Thursday's meeting on June 8, I talked with someone who could present on > > using Python to build Linux kernels. Please contact me offlist or onlist > > if you are still interested in speaking. > > If there is sufficient interest I'd be willing to give a talk on > Twisted.Web2[0]. In particular what it is capable of, where it is > going, how it differs from Twisted.Web[1], what all this means for > Nevow[2]. Of course I'd try to include a thorough summary of Twisted[3] > for those unfamiliar with the project. I don't think I'd be comfortable > eating a whole 75 minutes, but I'd be willing to do up to 30 with 5 or > 10 minutes of Q&A. I must warn you however, public speaking has never > been my strong suit, but I think it's time to come out of the dark > rooms in which Twisted.Web2 development has been taking place and see if > anyone actually cares. :) +1 From aleax at google.com Tue Jun 13 01:39:29 2006 From: aleax at google.com (Alex Martelli) Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2006 16:39:29 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Seeking August meeting speakers In-Reply-To: <448DEEAF.5000809@dreid.org> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20060612093830.00c1a1d8@localhost> <448DEEAF.5000809@dreid.org> Message-ID: <55dc209b0606121639o3e93ca66k3e96a5c783e3df95@mail.google.com> On 6/12/06, David Reid wrote: ... > If there is sufficient interest I'd be willing to give a talk on > Twisted.Web2[0]. In particular what it is capable of, where it is > going, how it differs from Twisted.Web[1], what all this means for > Nevow[2]. Of course I'd try to include a thorough summary of Twisted[3] I'm very interesed -- I used to be quite experienced with Twisted and Nevow, but haven't followed things at all through the Web2 innovations. Alex From DennisR at dair.com Tue Jun 13 20:25:59 2006 From: DennisR at dair.com (Dennis Reinhardt) Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2006 11:25:59 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Seeking August meeting speakers In-Reply-To: <448DEEAF.5000809@dreid.org> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20060612093830.00c1a1d8@localhost> <5.1.0.14.0.20060612093830.00c1a1d8@localhost> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20060613111532.00bf9c98@localhost> At 03:46 PM 6/12/2006, David Reid wrote: >[Twisted.Web2]... but I'd be willing to do up to 30 > with 5 or 10 minutes of Q&A. Thanks, David, JJ I think there is real interest. I would suggest for August 10 (at IronPort) that the schedule be: 7:30 Twisted.Web2 (includes Q&A) 8:10 Haskell (includes Q&A) 8:50 Mapping I will follow up with you and JJ via email, most likely near the end of this month, to get summary to publish, etc. Thanks, I am looking forward to both of these talks. Dennis ---------------------------------- | Dennis | DennisR at dair.com | | Reinhardt | Powerful Anti-Spam | ---------------------------------- From jjinux at gmail.com Tue Jun 13 20:40:36 2006 From: jjinux at gmail.com (Shannon -jj Behrens) Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2006 11:40:36 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Seeking August meeting speakers In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20060613111532.00bf9c98@localhost> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20060612093830.00c1a1d8@localhost> <448DEEAF.5000809@dreid.org> <5.1.0.14.0.20060613111532.00bf9c98@localhost> Message-ID: Dennis, I'm also happy to get bumped by someone else for the following reasons: 1. People may be getting sick of me. I spoke in December and April, and I'll be speaking next month as well. 2. This talk probably won't go stale, so there's no hurry. 3. I'm not sure how much I can convey in 40 minutes. You should *at least* wait until you've read my article :-/ -jj On 6/13/06, Dennis Reinhardt wrote: > At 03:46 PM 6/12/2006, David Reid wrote: > >[Twisted.Web2]... but I'd be willing to do up to 30 > > with 5 or 10 minutes of Q&A. > > Thanks, David, JJ > > I think there is real interest. I would suggest for August 10 (at > IronPort) that the schedule be: > > 7:30 Twisted.Web2 (includes Q&A) > 8:10 Haskell (includes Q&A) > 8:50 Mapping > > I will follow up with you and JJ via email, most likely near the end of > this month, to get summary to publish, etc. > > Thanks, I am looking forward to both of these talks. > Dennis > > ---------------------------------- > | Dennis | DennisR at dair.com | > | Reinhardt | Powerful Anti-Spam | > ---------------------------------- > > _______________________________________________ > Baypiggies mailing list > Baypiggies at python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies > From rbradley at projectway.com Tue Jun 13 20:51:17 2006 From: rbradley at projectway.com (Rand Bradley) Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2006 11:51:17 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] SDForum EMTECH-SIG Final Reminder: Python for S60 (Wednesday 6/14) Message-ID: <3a3f04f50606131151k1222157q78662ae0b6c5013b@mail.gmail.com> I wanted to give a final reminder that the SDForum EMTECH-SIG will be featuring Python for the Series 60 tomorrow evening (6/14). Mike Rowehl (Mobile Mondays) and Hartti Suomela (Nokia) are the presenters. Here is the agenda: Where: Cubberley Community Center, 4000 Middlefield Road, Palo Alto, Room H-1. Here's a link that gives directions to Cubberley: http://www.sdforum.org/p/l1.asp?SID=1&PID=324 When: Wednesday, June 14, 2006 7:00 Registration, Pizza, networking, and small-talk 7:20 Intro by Rand Bradley, Emerging Tech SIG Co-chair 7:30 Mike Rowehl and Hartti Suomela, Python for the Nokia Series 60 For more information on the meeting see: http://www.sdforum.org/SDForum/Templates/CalendarEvent.aspx?CID=1919 Remember, BayPython members can attend this meeting for free. Just let them know at the sign-up desk that you are with the BayPython group and the non-member fee will be waived. Feel free to email me directly if you have any questions. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mail.python.org/pipermail/baypiggies/attachments/20060613/66488146/attachment.htm From DennisR at dair.com Tue Jun 13 21:06:41 2006 From: DennisR at dair.com (Dennis Reinhardt) Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2006 12:06:41 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Seeking August meeting speakers In-Reply-To: References: <5.1.0.14.0.20060613111532.00bf9c98@localhost> <5.1.0.14.0.20060612093830.00c1a1d8@localhost> <448DEEAF.5000809@dreid.org> <5.1.0.14.0.20060613111532.00bf9c98@localhost> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20060613115721.00bfc288@localhost> At 11:40 AM 6/13/2006, Shannon -jj Behrens wrote: >Dennis, >You should *at least* wait until you've read my article :-/ JJ, I am relying on comments you made about Haskell at the last BayPiggies meeting. The premise sounded interesting. Oh, I *will* read the article too. C'mon, you even made program development methodology sound interesting in April ;-) Not to worry. This looks to be a good program. Dennis ---------------------------------- | Dennis | DennisR at dair.com | | Reinhardt | Powerful Anti-Spam | ---------------------------------- From millman at berkeley.edu Wed Jun 14 18:03:19 2006 From: millman at berkeley.edu (Jarrod Millman) Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2006 18:03:19 +0200 Subject: [Baypiggies] Neuroimaging in Python programmer position Message-ID: Hello, I am looking to fill a one-year programming position at UC Berkeley's Neuroscience Institute. You find the job posting by searching for job #004644 here: http://jobs.berkeley.edu/ The job basically involves serving as the lead architect for the NeuroImaging in Python (nipy) project: http://neuroimaging.scipy.org/ We are in the early stages of the project but already have a large codebase written by Jonathan Taylor, a professor of statistics at Stanford. You can browse the svn repository here: http://projects.scipy.org/neuroimaging/ni/browser/ni/trunk Here is the API documentation: http://neuroimaging.scipy.org/api/ The job will involve interacting with a international team of scientists and programmers who are committed to the project, and we expect the code to be used increasingly widely in the rapidly expanding field of neuroimaging. We make heavy use of scipy and numpy, and have already started to contribute to aspects of scipy (e.g. http://projects.scipy.org/scipy/scipy/browser/trunk/Lib/sandbox/models) I have pasted the job description at the end of my email. Feel free to contact me if you have any questions or know of anyone I should contact. Thanks, -- Jarrod Millman Computational Infrastructure for Research Labs 10 Giannini Hall, UC Berkeley phone: 510.643.4014 http://cirl.berkeley.edu/ ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posting Title: Programmer/Analyst IV-Ucb Requisition: 004644 Department: Helen Wills Neuroscience Inst Location: Main Campus-Berkeley Salary: Annual salary range is $68,100 to $123,800 Note: Although full salary scale is listed, most offers will not exceed midpoint of the salary range. First Review Date: 06/09/2006 This requisition will remain open until filled. Job Description: As team leader of the BIC Neuroinformatics Support (BNS), provide day-to-day leadership as well as long-term planning. The Institute administers the Brain Imaging Center (BIC), which houses a high-resolution Magnetic Resonance Imaging (MRI) scanner, which is used to gather functional MRI (fMRI) data from human subjects. As a senior-level Programmer/Analyst (PA), assume an integral role in the design and development of the Neuroimaging Tools in Python (NiPy) including the work flow, data maintenance, and data processing system at the BIC. Work involves software development and integration of 3rd party tools (e.g., SPM) into the NiPy environment. Assume a key role in the continuing transition of our dataflow systems into a scalable and flexible architecture based on Python and web technologies using NiPy. Represent the unit and the university in collaborative development of analysis software with other universities and research institutes. Keep up with emerging technologies, evaluate software tools, and develop standards and processes for effective implementation, deployment, and maintenance of the architecture. Work independently and as part of a team, reporting directly to the leader of NICE. Responsibilities: 60% Maintain the NiPy neuroimaging analysis code, including incorporating new methods as they are developed. Modify existing analysis software including but not limited to porting programs to work in different operating environments, making existing programs more user-friendly, and selecting different parts of existing programs and joining them together to perform a new task. Develop a scalable, modular pipeline framework to incorporate these various analysis components. Deploy stable releases of this software suite according to established BNS policy. 20% Act as leader of the BNS, including both 1) training other team members and planning and assigning work assignments for other team members and as well as 2) creating and documenting BNS best practices and preferred standards. Direct the design and development of BIC subject and patient databases, including schema design, interface development, and integration with other tools. Conceive, develop and implement critical IT infrastructure including user and configuration management systems. Serve as a resource for BIC programmers and NiPy contributors. 15% Provide a front-line interface to end-users, accepting trouble reports and responding as appropriate, including contacting vendors and developers to report and resolve trouble. Help users with analysis software and data processing. Conduct user training and document BIC informatics' pipeline. Perform other duties as requested. 5% Attend workshops, seminars, and training sessions to maintain and improve professional skills. Requirements & Qualifications: Expert knowledge of Python. Four years experience with Linux (Mandrake and/or Redhat). Familiarity with Windows and MacOS X. Intermediate knowledge of C, C++, Matlab, and Java. Understanding of GNU programming tools including GCC, make, automake, and autoconf. Basic knowledge of signal processing and linear algebra. Strong interest and background in cognitive science and/or neuroscience. Experience with medical image processing. Understanding of MRI analysis. This position has been designated as sensitive and may require a Criminal Background Check. We reserve the right to make employment contingent upon successful completion of a Criminal Background Check. From wescpy at gmail.com Thu Jun 15 02:11:22 2006 From: wescpy at gmail.com (w chun) Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2006 17:11:22 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] JOB: Python/web software position (WFH) Message-ID: <78b3a9580606141711h58a0df27v35c1761295bc1364@mail.gmail.com> hi everyone, recently i've picked up a part-time job working for a virtual company -- no "real" office, everyone is split up working from home -- that helps foundations and grantees manage the flow of donations. it is based in NY; the CEO is in WashDC, the CTO/lead developer is in Winnipeg, the ProjectMgr is in Boston, and i'm here in the valley. we all communicate by IM and/or Skype. we are looking for a few more developers. practically all of the coding is done in Python. auxiliary skills desired: PostgreSQL, Webware, Cheetah, AJAX, JavaScript, XML, OpenOffice/PyUNO, and cross-browser UI implementation. let me know if you or ppl you know may be interested in working from home PT or FT (preferably the latter). it's a pretty flexible job... i like it but can't commit to the amount of time they need to get a product out the door. the need is immediate; rates are dependent on experience. most -- if not all -- work can be done remotely. preference is for someone who can commit a minimum of 3 days per week. contact me, if interested, for the e-mail address to forward your resume and rates. candidates who look like a good match will be asked for code samples and references as well as be asked to sign an NDA. i'd love to see someone from BayPIGgies join the team!! cheers, -wesley From donnamsnow at gmail.com Thu Jun 15 02:29:18 2006 From: donnamsnow at gmail.com (Donna M. Snow) Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2006 17:29:18 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Google/Snacks.. Message-ID: <4490A9DE.7070904@gmail.com> Hi Guys, I landed a great gig rebuilding a "news" site in Zope and Plone and need to tone down my volunteer stuff. I'm going to have to step down as snack guru and hope someone else will come forward to handle the pizza and drinks for the meetings. I still plan on maintaining the website (and attending Google meetings) and moving everything over to Plone..I just can't do the snacks at this point. This weekend I plan on moving content from current site to the new site (we'll keep content up on current site until we are done migrating to the new one) Dennis..please send me the July info and I'll get that up by this weekend (and archive June) Donna M. Snow From DennisR at dair.com Thu Jun 15 02:51:33 2006 From: DennisR at dair.com (Dennis Reinhardt) Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2006 17:51:33 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Google/Snacks.. In-Reply-To: <4490A9DE.7070904@gmail.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20060614174047.00c1f0c0@localhost> At 05:29 PM 6/14/2006, Donna M. Snow wrote: >Hi Guys, > >I landed a great gig rebuilding a "news" site in Zope and Plone and need >to tone down my volunteer stuff. That is great, glad to hear it. >I'm going to have to step down as snack guru and hope someone else will >come forward to handle the pizza and drinks for the meetings. I think there is a constraint at both sites: we simply cannot get access to either meeting room much in advance. We are starting the meetings at 7:30 sharp, which means that eating and presentation may overlap -- not good. If we do snacks, I think we need to either a) get access to the room much earlier or b) defer snacks until after the meeting. When we held meetings at Stanford, we used option (b). Both sites require an employee be in the room when the room is occupied by us. Starting earlier is a further burden on our generous hosts. I would like to see us rule out trying to feed people under (a) and do something simple under (b). We already have off-site dinners before the meeting and bringing dinner to the meeting is splitting our attendance. >Dennis..please send me the July info and I'll get that up by this >weekend (and archive June) Marilyn is organizing this meeting. Let's the three of us work off-line to pull the write-up together. Thanks for sticking with the web site. Dennis ---------------------------------- | Dennis | DennisR at dair.com | | Reinhardt | Powerful Anti-Spam | ---------------------------------- From designmill at comcast.net Thu Jun 15 18:19:27 2006 From: designmill at comcast.net (John Ivie) Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2006 09:19:27 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] SDForum EMTECH-SIG Final Reminder: Python for S60(Wednesday 6/14) Message-ID: <20060615161931.8A98B1E4005@bag.python.org> _____ From: John Ivie [mailto:designmill at comcast.net] Sent: Wednesday, June 14, 2006 10:23 PM To: 'Rand Bradley'; 'baypiggies at python.org' Subject: RE: [Baypiggies] SDForum EMTECH-SIG Final Reminder: Python for S60(Wednesday 6/14) My sincere apologies for sending this message to everyone in baypiggies. Please ignore this email message if you did not want a book on Ruby. There was a drawing for several free books at this meeting tonight. I can not remember the person who asked me about the Ruby book I won in this drawing. If you get this email, please email me back, I would be glad to trade, if you are still interested. Thanks, John Ivie Designmill at comcast.net _____ From: baypiggies-bounces at python.org [mailto:baypiggies-bounces at python.org] On Behalf Of Rand Bradley Sent: Tuesday, June 13, 2006 11:51 AM To: baypiggies at python.org Subject: [Baypiggies] SDForum EMTECH-SIG Final Reminder: Python for S60(Wednesday 6/14) I wanted to give a final reminder that the SDForum EMTECH-SIG will be featuring Python for the Series 60 tomorrow evening (6/14). Mike Rowehl (Mobile Mondays) and Hartti Suomela (Nokia) are the presenters. Here is the agenda: Where: Cubberley Community Center, 4000 Middlefield Road, Palo Alto, Room H-1. Here's a link that gives directions to Cubberley: http://www.sdforum.org/p/l1.asp?SID=1 &PID=324 When: Wednesday, June 14, 2006 7:00 Registration, Pizza, networking, and small-talk 7:20 Intro by Rand Bradley, Emerging Tech SIG Co-chair 7:30 Mike Rowehl and Hartti Suomela, Python for the Nokia Series 60 For more information on the meeting see: http://www.sdforum.org/SDForum/Templates/CalendarEvent.aspx?CID=1919 Remember, BayPython members can attend this meeting for free. Just let them know at the sign-up desk that you are with the BayPython group and the non-member fee will be waived. Feel free to email me directly if you have any questions. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mail.python.org/pipermail/baypiggies/attachments/20060615/e5609be2/attachment.htm From tungwaiyip at yahoo.com Thu Jun 15 18:50:23 2006 From: tungwaiyip at yahoo.com (Tung Wai Yip) Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2006 09:50:23 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] SDForum EMTECH-SIG Final Reminder: Python for S60(Wednesday 6/14) In-Reply-To: <20060615161931.8A98B1E4005@bag.python.org> References: <20060615161931.8A98B1E4005@bag.python.org> Message-ID: If you haven't drop down all URLs from the meeting, here are what I got: The blog http://emtech.wordpress.com/ Yahoo group http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sdforum_emergingtech/ Python for S60 at Nokia http://forum.nokia.com/python Wai Yip > > _____ > > From: baypiggies-bounces at python.org > [mailto:baypiggies-bounces at python.org] > On Behalf Of Rand Bradley > Sent: Tuesday, June 13, 2006 11:51 AM > To: baypiggies at python.org > Subject: [Baypiggies] SDForum EMTECH-SIG Final Reminder: Python for > S60(Wednesday 6/14) > > > I wanted to give a final reminder that the SDForum EMTECH-SIG will be > featuring Python for the Series 60 tomorrow evening (6/14). Mike Rowehl > (Mobile Mondays) and Hartti Suomela (Nokia) are the presenters. Here is > the > agenda: > > Where: Cubberley Community Center, 4000 Middlefield Road, Palo Alto, > Room H-1. Here's a link that gives directions to Cubberley: > http://www.sdforum.org/p/l1.asp?SID=1 > &PID=324 > When: Wednesday, June 14, 2006 > 7:00 Registration, Pizza, networking, and small-talk > 7:20 Intro by Rand Bradley, Emerging Tech SIG Co-chair > 7:30 Mike Rowehl and Hartti Suomela, Python for the Nokia Series 60 > > For more information on the meeting see: > http://www.sdforum.org/SDForum/Templates/CalendarEvent.aspx?CID=1919 > > Remember, BayPython members can attend this meeting for free. Just let > them > know at the sign-up desk that you are with the BayPython group and the > non-member fee will be waived. > > Feel free to email me directly if you have any questions. > From marilyn at deliberate.com Thu Jun 15 21:12:12 2006 From: marilyn at deliberate.com (Marilyn Davis) Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2006 12:12:12 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Wow! An Optimizing Python-to-C++ Compiler Message-ID: <20060615191216.1A3F11E4017@bag.python.org> http://mark.dufour.googlepages.com/ From jjinux at gmail.com Thu Jun 15 21:21:15 2006 From: jjinux at gmail.com (Shannon -jj Behrens) Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2006 12:21:15 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Wow! An Optimizing Python-to-C++ Compiler In-Reply-To: <20060615191216.1A3F11E4017@bag.python.org> References: <20060615191216.1A3F11E4017@bag.python.org> Message-ID: It's too bad "Psycho" was already taken as a project name ;) -jj On 6/15/06, Marilyn Davis wrote: > http://mark.dufour.googlepages.com/ From bos at serpentine.com Thu Jun 15 21:39:24 2006 From: bos at serpentine.com (Bryan O'Sullivan) Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2006 12:39:24 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Wow! An Optimizing Python-to-C++ Compiler In-Reply-To: <20060615191216.1A3F11E4017@bag.python.org> References: <20060615191216.1A3F11E4017@bag.python.org> Message-ID: <1150400364.10909.22.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Thu, 2006-06-15 at 12:12 -0700, Marilyn Davis wrote: > http://mark.dufour.googlepages.com/ This looks interesting, but less flexible than Pyrex. Pyrex is sweeeet, though it compiles to C, not C++. References: <20060615191216.1A3F11E4017@bag.python.org> Message-ID: I tried this. It sounds really neat but is currently very immature. It complained about not knowing what to do with the "re" module... :-( Admitted that was release 0.0.8, it seels to be at 0.0.10 now. On 6/15/06, Marilyn Davis wrote: > http://mark.dufour.googlepages.com/ -- --Guido van Rossum (home page: http://www.python.org/~guido/) From guido at python.org Thu Jun 15 23:57:41 2006 From: guido at python.org (Guido van Rossum) Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2006 14:57:41 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Fwd: Re: Wow! An Optimizing Python-to-C++ Compiler <- Your mail to marilyn@deliberate.com In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Yuck. ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: marilyn at deliberate.com Date: Jun 15, 2006 2:55 PM Subject: Re: Re: [Baypiggies] Wow! An Optimizing Python-to-C++ Compiler <- Your mail to marilyn at deliberate.com To: Guido van Rossum Hi Guido Van Rossum! If you sent mail about "Re: [Baypiggies] Wow! An Optimizing Python-to-C++ Compiler" to marilyn at deliberate.com, please go to: http://www.maildance.com/doorman/door.py?msg_code=1FqzoM-000791-C2-13 to bring your message to my attention. Otherwise your message will be in the folder with other unknown sources and may not be noticed. If you did not send a message, please ignore this. You will not receive a message like this again within the next day, even if you send more messages to marilyn at deliberate.com. Thank you, Marilyn Davis - - - - - - -- --Guido van Rossum (home page: http://www.python.org/~guido/) From bos at serpentine.com Fri Jun 16 00:02:41 2006 From: bos at serpentine.com (Bryan O'Sullivan) Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2006 15:02:41 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Fwd: Re: Wow! An Optimizing Python-to-C++ Compiler <- Your mail to marilyn@deliberate.com In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1150408961.2485.16.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Thu, 2006-06-15 at 14:57 -0700, Guido van Rossum wrote: > Yuck. My reaction precisely :-) From marilyn at deliberate.com Fri Jun 16 00:08:29 2006 From: marilyn at deliberate.com (Marilyn Davis) Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2006 15:08:29 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Fwd: Re: Wow! An Optimizing Python-to-C++ Compiler <- Your mail to marilyn@deliberate.com Message-ID: <20060615220832.4E5E81E4008@bag.python.org> ----- On Thursday, June 15, 2006 guido at python.org wrote: > Yuck. Yuck? Because private mail gets a challenge? Please explain. Marilyn > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > From: marilyn at deliberate.com > Date: Jun 15, 2006 2:55 PM > Subject: Re: Re: [Baypiggies] Wow! An Optimizing Python-to-C++ > Compiler From guido at python.org Fri Jun 16 00:29:42 2006 From: guido at python.org (Guido van Rossum) Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2006 15:29:42 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Fwd: Re: Wow! An Optimizing Python-to-C++ Compiler <- Your mail to marilyn@deliberate.com In-Reply-To: <20060615220831.130741E4008@bag.python.org> References: <20060615220831.130741E4008@bag.python.org> Message-ID: On 6/15/06, Marilyn Davis wrote: > ----- On Thursday, June 15, 2006 guido at python.org wrote: > > > Yuck. > > Yuck? Because private mail gets a challenge? Yes. > Please explain. This antispam solution simply doesn't scale. As a matter of principle I never respond to these challenges. Your loss. > Marilyn > > > > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > > From: marilyn at deliberate.com > > Date: Jun 15, 2006 2:55 PM > > Subject: Re: Re: [Baypiggies] Wow! An Optimizing Python-to-C++ > > Compiler > > > > > -- --Guido van Rossum (home page: http://www.python.org/~guido/) From marilyn at deliberate.com Fri Jun 16 01:07:32 2006 From: marilyn at deliberate.com (Marilyn Davis) Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2006 16:07:32 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Challenge/Response email systems Message-ID: <20060615230735.47AD81E4003@bag.python.org> ------- On Thursday, June 15, 2006 guido at python.org wrote: > On 6/15/06, Marilyn Davis wrote: >> ----- On Thursday, June 15, 2006 guido at python.org wrote: >> >> > Yuck. >> >> Yuck? Because private mail gets a challenge? > > Yes. > >> Please explain. > > This antispam solution simply doesn't scale. As a matter of principle > I never respond to these challenges. Your loss. You did answer the challenge, Guido. So I got that email twice. Maybe you couldn't resist because it said door.py in the url? I guess, if someone wants to write to me, they should be willing to answer a challenge once. If I write to someone first, or if I put them in my address book, of course they never see a challenge. It feels bad to displease our benevolent dictator, and I'm very sorry you feel this way, Guido. "Doesn't scale"? You mean that, if everyone sent a challenge for personal mail from an unknown address, that the amount of email would almost double, actually almost triple because usually the challenge bounces, and then the mail moves to the user's Junk folder -- all lovely Python code. Even so, mail transfer is a small resource compared to web traffic. And I can't give consideration to processing and network connection time when I'm comparing with time and aggravation for humans. IMHO, computers are here to save us time and aggravation. And, if everyone did Challenge/Response (C/R), computer-generated spam would simply be locked out of business. I know that most mail administrators, who have their lives and careers centered around spam filtering, are adamantly and blindly against C/R. But a careful discussion about their list of complaints leaves an intelligently-designed challenge/response system in a good light. Therefore, it exists at Maildance.com -- pre-alpha. I just love it. When I filtered spam, there would be false-positives, which I consider unacceptible, and/or spam leaking through. It was an unending and ugly battle. Even then, when my filter rated an email as spam, I'd send an error message suggesting ways to get the mail through to me. And people I liked would get that message and feel bad that they were accused of being spammers, no matter how nice I tried to word it. I hope people give it a fresh thought. In any case, I'm very willing to discuss it if people care to. Marilyn > >> Marilyn >> >> > >> > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- >> > From: marilyn at deliberate.com >> > Date: Jun 15, 2006 2:55 PM >> > Subject: Re: Re: [Baypiggies] Wow! An Optimizing Python-to-C++ >> > Compiler >> >> >> >> >> > > > -- > --Guido van Rossum (home page: http://www.python.org/~guido/) From bob at redivi.com Fri Jun 16 01:34:16 2006 From: bob at redivi.com (Bob Ippolito) Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2006 16:34:16 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Challenge/Response email systems In-Reply-To: <20060615230735.47AD81E4003@bag.python.org> References: <20060615230735.47AD81E4003@bag.python.org> Message-ID: <50F02052-D0C5-4EFC-A57C-EEC1256B17B0@redivi.com> On Jun 15, 2006, at 4:07 PM, Marilyn Davis wrote: > ------- On Thursday, June 15, 2006 guido at python.org wrote: > >> On 6/15/06, Marilyn Davis wrote: >>> ----- On Thursday, June 15, 2006 guido at python.org wrote: >>> >>>> Yuck. >>> >>> Yuck? Because private mail gets a challenge? >> >> Yes. >> >>> Please explain. >> >> This antispam solution simply doesn't scale. As a matter of principle >> I never respond to these challenges. Your loss. > > You did answer the challenge, Guido. So I got that email twice. > Maybe you couldn't resist because it said door.py in the url? Could've easily been someone else, given that the challenge URL ended up on a public mailing list. > I guess, if someone wants to write to me, they should be willing to > answer a challenge once. If I write to someone first, or if I put > them in my address book, of course they never see a challenge. > > It feels bad to displease our benevolent dictator, and I'm very > sorry you feel this way, Guido. > > "Doesn't scale"? You mean that, if everyone sent a challenge for > personal mail from an unknown address, that the amount of email > would almost double, actually almost triple because usually the > challenge bounces, and then the mail moves to the user's Junk > folder -- all lovely Python code. > > Even so, mail transfer is a small resource compared to web > traffic. And I can't give consideration to processing and network > connection time when I'm comparing with time and aggravation for > humans. IMHO, computers are here to save us time and aggravation. > > And, if everyone did Challenge/Response (C/R), computer-generated > spam would simply be locked out of business. C/R doesn't scale because spoofed challenges are indistinguishable from real ones and you can't filter any of them out without filtering all of them. If everyone did C/R you'd simply get hundreds of non- filterable challenges a day instead of spam, and you would have no idea which ones to respond to. I'd rather have spam. -bob From aahz at pythoncraft.com Fri Jun 16 01:37:20 2006 From: aahz at pythoncraft.com (Aahz) Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2006 16:37:20 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Challenge/Response email systems In-Reply-To: <20060615230735.47AD81E4003@bag.python.org> References: <20060615230735.47AD81E4003@bag.python.org> Message-ID: <20060615233720.GA25846@panix.com> On Thu, Jun 15, 2006, Marilyn Davis wrote: > > I guess, if someone wants to write to me, they should be willing to > answer a challenge once. If I write to someone first, or if I put > them in my address book, of course they never see a challenge. Speaking as a mailing list administrator, anyone who leaks a challenge to the mailing list OR who sends a challenge to a list subscriber as a result of a post to the list -- both of which I've seen happen -- gets immediately banned. -- Aahz (aahz at pythoncraft.com) <*> http://www.pythoncraft.com/ "I saw `cout' being shifted "Hello world" times to the left and stopped right there." --Steve Gonedes From guido at python.org Fri Jun 16 01:59:20 2006 From: guido at python.org (Guido van Rossum) Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2006 16:59:20 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Challenge/Response email systems In-Reply-To: <20060615233720.GA25846@panix.com> References: <20060615230735.47AD81E4003@bag.python.org> <20060615233720.GA25846@panix.com> Message-ID: OK, feel free to ban me *and* Marilyn. :-) On 6/15/06, Aahz wrote: > On Thu, Jun 15, 2006, Marilyn Davis wrote: > > > > I guess, if someone wants to write to me, they should be willing to > > answer a challenge once. If I write to someone first, or if I put > > them in my address book, of course they never see a challenge. > > Speaking as a mailing list administrator, anyone who leaks a challenge > to the mailing list OR who sends a challenge to a list subscriber as a > result of a post to the list -- both of which I've seen happen -- gets > immediately banned. > -- > Aahz (aahz at pythoncraft.com) <*> http://www.pythoncraft.com/ > > "I saw `cout' being shifted "Hello world" times to the left and stopped > right there." --Steve Gonedes > _______________________________________________ > Baypiggies mailing list > Baypiggies at python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies > -- --Guido van Rossum (home page: http://www.python.org/~guido/) From aahz at pythoncraft.com Fri Jun 16 02:59:01 2006 From: aahz at pythoncraft.com (Aahz) Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2006 17:59:01 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Challenge/Response email systems In-Reply-To: References: <20060615230735.47AD81E4003@bag.python.org> <20060615233720.GA25846@panix.com> Message-ID: <20060616005900.GA20648@panix.com> On Thu, Jun 15, 2006, Guido van Rossum wrote: > On 6/15/06, Aahz wrote: >> >>Speaking as a mailing list administrator, anyone who leaks a challenge >>to the mailing list OR who sends a challenge to a list subscriber as a >>result of a post to the list -- both of which I've seen happen -- gets >>immediately banned. > > OK, feel free to ban me *and* Marilyn. :-) Just in case it wasn't clear, I'm talking about the challenge itself, not a challenge forwarded to complain about it. So far, I haven't seen this happen on baypiggies, and I would expect that someone as careful as Marilyn probably won't cause that kind of problem, but because I have seen misconfigured challenge systems do that, I felt that I needed to make a Pronouncement. ;-) -- Aahz (aahz at pythoncraft.com) <*> http://www.pythoncraft.com/ "I saw `cout' being shifted "Hello world" times to the left and stopped right there." --Steve Gonedes From marilyn at deliberate.com Fri Jun 16 08:24:39 2006 From: marilyn at deliberate.com (Marilyn Davis) Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2006 23:24:39 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Challenge/Response email systems Message-ID: <20060616062442.5A4E91E4003@bag.python.org> ------- On Thursday, June 15, 2006 aahz at pythoncraft.com wrote: > On Thu, Jun 15, 2006, Guido van Rossum wrote: >> On 6/15/06, Aahz wrote: >>> >>>Speaking as a mailing list administrator, anyone who leaks a challenge >>>to the mailing list OR who sends a challenge to a list subscriber as a >>>result of a post to the list -- both of which I've seen happen -- gets >>>immediately banned. Gulp. Well, so far so good. >> >> OK, feel free to ban me *and* Marilyn. :-) Hey! ;^) Speak for yourself. You brought the challenge to the list. > > Just in case it wasn't clear, I'm talking about the challenge itself, not > a challenge forwarded to complain about it. So far, I haven't seen this > happen on baypiggies, and I would expect that someone as careful as > Marilyn probably won't cause that kind of problem, but because I have > seen misconfigured challenge systems do that, I felt that I needed to > make a Pronouncement. ;-) Bugs abound. What's the policy about vacation messages that run amuk? BTW, it's exactly the same algorithm, just a different auto-responder. A few weeks ago a list that I serve and administer had a guy's vacation program that not only responded to list traffic, but also didn't keep track of the addresses it had already responded to. So it responded again to itself when it came around the list, and again, ... I don't know how many pages of messages we all got because I searched and deleted them without looking past the first few pages. So, is it the same policy? Immediate banishment for any auto-responder that has run amuk? Marilyn > -- > Aahz (aahz at pythoncraft.com) http://www.pythoncraft.com/ > > "I saw `cout' being shifted "Hello world" times to the left and stopped > right there." --Steve Gonedes > _______________________________________________ > Baypiggies mailing list > Baypiggies at python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies From ken at seehart.com Fri Jun 16 17:58:07 2006 From: ken at seehart.com (Ken Seehart) Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2006 08:58:07 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Challenge/Response email systems In-Reply-To: <20060616005900.GA20648@panix.com> References: <20060615230735.47AD81E4003@bag.python.org> <20060615233720.GA25846@panix.com> <20060616005900.GA20648@panix.com> Message-ID: <4492D50F.1070208@seehart.com> My understanding is that there are a couple kinds of CR systems. One kind is blind, and sends a challenge to anyone not on a whitelist (call this Blind CR), and another kind that only sends a challenge when the email is: 1. Not on whitelist. 2. Has a moderately high spam score. 3. Doesn't have a super high spam score (just dump these in the spam bucket). Obviously, the most common objections apply to blind CR systems. A /smart/ CR system would only generate a relatively small percentage increase to email traffic in exchange for putting spammers out of business (a reasonable exchange I think). In general I would receive a challenge only when it is likely that the person receiving my mail would have discarded it if they had not installed a CR system. Anyway, this discussion has left me "undecided" on the issue. Leaning against CR at the moment. I have two questions: 1. Marylin: Is your CR "smart" or "blind"? I can't imaging why the email Guido sent you would have gotten a "moderately high" spam score. 2. Does anyone have an answer to Bob's objection? That looks like a killer to me. Although I have not yet received any spoofed CR messages, I could imagine it could become a very popular technique for spammers. I don't want to complicate things by simply adding another layer to the battle (CR spoofs vs. CR spoof filtering). If Bob's objection is not answerable, CR is dead. 3. What about metaCRs? Maybe my CR system sends you a challenge about your CR. Yuck. 4. Is there anything as bulletproof as CR, but without the problems? And I am not asking about better filters (that's just an ongoing battle against better spam). - Ken Bob wrote: > C/R doesn't scale because spoofed challenges are indistinguishable > from real ones and you can't filter any of them out without filtering > all of them. If everyone did C/R you'd simply get hundreds of non- > filterable challenges a day instead of spam, and you would have no > idea which ones to respond to. > > I'd rather have spam. > > -bob > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mail.python.org/pipermail/baypiggies/attachments/20060616/389ce7ea/attachment.html From mech422 at gmail.com Fri Jun 16 18:09:04 2006 From: mech422 at gmail.com (steve hindle) Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2006 09:09:04 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Challenge/Response email systems In-Reply-To: <4492D50F.1070208@seehart.com> References: <20060615230735.47AD81E4003@bag.python.org> <20060615233720.GA25846@panix.com> <20060616005900.GA20648@panix.com> <4492D50F.1070208@seehart.com> Message-ID: <9a0545880606160909s63d9a7e5u83c7829b243de788@mail.gmail.com> On 6/16/06, Ken Seehart wrote: > > 4. Is there anything as bulletproof as CR, but without the problems? And I > am not asking about > better filters (that's just an ongoing battle against better spam). > I know the 'designated sender' system(s?) were causing a stir a while back... I forget the acroynm but I believe it worked by adding DNS records indicating which mail servers were 'authorized' to originate mail for a particular domain. I believe AOL was backing/implementing a version of it. Don't know what the outcome was, but I sure someone on the list can shed more light on it. Steve From DennisR at dair.com Fri Jun 16 18:29:50 2006 From: DennisR at dair.com (Dennis Reinhardt) Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2006 09:29:50 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Challenge/Response email systems In-Reply-To: <4492D50F.1070208@seehart.com> References: <20060616005900.GA20648@panix.com> <20060615230735.47AD81E4003@bag.python.org> <20060615233720.GA25846@panix.com> <20060616005900.GA20648@panix.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20060616090916.00bf14b8@localhost> At 08:58 AM 6/16/2006, you wrote: >4. Is there anything as bulletproof as CR, but without the problems? >And I am not asking about >better filters (that's just an ongoing battle against better spam). I think so and have implemented such in my latest version of SpamAI: Guilty until proven innocent Only whitelisted email is directed to your inbox. The rest is reviewed or ignored as you see fit. Because this algo and C/R are both explicit whitelist systems, they are equally bulletproof. Now on to "the problems"... A C/R "shares" *your* spam problem with people who send to you. Now, there is going to be an asymmetry in who finds the message valuable. Consider this table based on who finds the message important: hi importance to sender, lo importance to receiver The sender does the work to go through C/R and the recipient gets a message they are not interested in. Sender is irritated but so what? - for C/R low importance to sender, lo importance to receiver message is lost. + for C/R hi importance to sender, hi importance to receiver The sender does the work and recipient receives message but at the cost of irritating sender on something both consider important. Both + and - for C/R lo importance to sender, high importance to receiver The message is lost and the sender is *really* irritated. - for C/R Including the ambiguous case, there are 3 - and 2 + for C/R. C/R works less well when there is an asymmetry in the importance of the conversation/message. I think the sender's responsibility ends when they send their message. From that point forward, it is the recipient's sole responsibility to act/not act. Dennis ---------------------------------- | Dennis | DennisR at dair.com | | Reinhardt | Powerful Anti-Spam | ---------------------------------- From aahz at pythoncraft.com Fri Jun 16 18:31:06 2006 From: aahz at pythoncraft.com (Aahz) Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2006 09:31:06 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Challenge/Response email systems In-Reply-To: <20060616062442.5A4E91E4003@bag.python.org> References: <20060616062442.5A4E91E4003@bag.python.org> Message-ID: <20060616163106.GA7911@panix.com> On Thu, Jun 15, 2006, Marilyn Davis wrote: > > So, is it the same policy? Immediate banishment for any > auto-responder that has run amuk? Absolutely! -- Aahz (aahz at pythoncraft.com) <*> http://www.pythoncraft.com/ "I saw `cout' being shifted "Hello world" times to the left and stopped right there." --Steve Gonedes From marilyn at deliberate.com Fri Jun 16 20:14:27 2006 From: marilyn at deliberate.com (Marilyn Davis) Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2006 11:14:27 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Challenge/Response email systems Message-ID: <20060616181430.328241E4005@bag.python.org> I'm going to trim a lot out of these messages. I hope no one feels I've left out any important context. It is not my intention. ----- On Thursday, June 15, 2006 bob at redivi.com wrote: >> >> You did answer the challenge, Guido. So I got that email twice. >> Maybe you couldn't resist because it said door.py in the url? > > Could've easily been someone else, given that the challenge URL ended > up on a public mailing list. > Of course you're right. Thank you someone. I'm very glad to have Guido on my white list so he'll never face the challenge again. In fact, I'll add *@python.org to my white list. > > C/R doesn't scale because spoofed challenges are indistinguishable > from real ones and you can't filter any of them out without filtering > all of them. If everyone did C/R you'd simply get hundreds of non- > filterable challenges a day instead of spam, and you would have no > idea which ones to respond to. A spoofed challenge won't get into my email box. It will be sent a challenge! If I send someone a message, they are automatically on my white list. So if they generate a challenge, I'll see and answer it. ----- On Friday, June 16, 2006 ken at seehart.com wrote: > My understanding is that there are a couple kinds of CR systems.  One > kind is blind, and sends a > challenge to anyone not on a whitelist (call this Blind CR), and > another kind that only sends a challenge > when the email is: > > Not on whitelist. > Has a moderately high spam score. > Doesn't have a super high spam score (just dump these in the spam > bucket). > > > Obviously, the most common objections apply to blind CR systems.  A smart > CR system would > only generate a relatively small percentage increase to email traffic > in exchange for putting spammers > out of business (a reasonable exchange I think).  In general I would > receive a challenge only when > it is likely that the person receiving my mail would have discarded it > if they had not installed a CR > system. > > Anyway, this discussion has left me "undecided" on the issue.  Leaning > against CR at the moment. > > I have two questions: > > 1. Marylin: Is your CR "smart" or "blind"?  I can't imaging why the > email Guido sent you would have > gotten a "moderately high" spam score. Blind so far. My boss (son), so far, doesn't want any spam scoring. We do it blindly for all unknown addreses. > > 2. Does anyone have an answer to Bob's objection?  That looks like a > killer to me.  Although > I have not yet received any spoofed CR messages, I could imagine it > could become a very > popular technique for spammers.  I don't want to complicate things by > simply adding another layer > to the battle (CR spoofs vs. CR spoof filtering).  If Bob's objection > is not answerable, CR is dead. Answered above. > > 3. What about metaCRs?  Maybe my CR system sends you a challenge about > your CR.  Yuck. Your CR is badly broken if, when you write to someone, that someone isn't added immediately your white list. > > 4. Is there anything as bulletproof as CR, but without the problems?  > And I am not asking about > better filters (that's just an ongoing battle against better spam). > > - Ken > > I know the 'designated sender' system(s?) were causing a stir a while back... > I forget the acroynm but I believe it worked by adding DNS records > indicating which mail servers were 'authorized' to originate mail for > a particular domain. I believe AOL was backing/implementing a version > of it. Don't know what the outcome was, but I sure someone on the > list can shed more light on it. > > Steve "SPF" Sender Policy Framework. It is good for proving that mail originating from python.org came from python.org. But it is not good for proving that mail from python.org is illegimate if python.org provides portible addresses. Also SPF breaks with forwarding. Wikipedia has a nice discussion: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sender_Policy_Framework#Controversy ----- On Friday, June 16, 2006 DennisR at dair.com wrote: > At 08:58 AM 6/16/2006, you wrote: > >>4. Is there anything as bulletproof as CR, but without the problems? >>And I am not asking about >>better filters (that's just an ongoing battle against better spam). > > I think so and have implemented such in my latest version of SpamAI: > > Guilty until proven innocent > > Only whitelisted email is directed to your inbox. The rest is reviewed or > ignored as you see fit. The review/ignore part isn't practical for me. My address has been around for so long, and I run so many email lists that I get constantly spammed, I can't review them. > > Because this algo and C/R are both explicit whitelist systems, they are > equally bulletproof. > > Now on to "the problems"... A C/R "shares" *your* spam problem with people > who send to you. I need to comment that in all other communication modes, the sender is the one responsible: to put a stamp on mail, to ring the doorbell, to dial the phone. > Now, there is going to be an asymmetry in who finds the > message valuable. Consider this table based on who finds the message > important: > > hi importance to sender, lo importance to receiver > The sender does the work to go through C/R and the recipient gets a message > they are not interested in. Sender is irritated but so what? - for C/R And I need to comment that the only people who have ever expressed irritation are technical people. Regular people, so far, think it is totally cool. I think the "irritation" of a challenge is pretty low compared to all the broken windows stuff that people are used to. If the mail wasn't important to the sender, why did she send it in the first place? If you are sending stuff that you don't care about, what are you doing? And what is lost if I don't see it? I really don't want to see mail you send me if you don't mean it. > > low importance to sender, lo importance to receiver > message is lost. + for C/R > > hi importance to sender, hi importance to receiver > The sender does the work and recipient receives message but at the cost of > irritating sender on something both consider important. Both + and - for C/R > > lo importance to sender, high importance to receiver > The message is lost and the sender is *really* irritated. - for C/R The sender is irritated because she didn't answer the challenge and the mail was important to her? Well, that person is very irritable indeed and maybe I'm better off without having her in my email. I'll confess I'm a little confused about the usefulness of this analysis. > > Including the ambiguous case, there are 3 - and 2 + for C/R. C/R works > less well when there is an asymmetry in the importance of the > conversation/message. I think the sender's responsibility ends when they > send their message. From that point forward, it is the recipient's sole > responsibility to act/not act. Take Guido's case. Answering the challenge was unimportant to him and I wonder why he cc-ed me. Losing his private email was inconsequential for me too. I got it from the list. However, if Guido really needed me, to teach a class tomorrow night, to fill in for someone, or something, would he stand on his principle if I could solve a problem for him? If so, I wouldn't know. It would be his loss. The issue that no one has brought up is the 'Joe Job', discussed ad nauseum on the exim mailing list. I have to run now but I'll talk about it later if anyone demonstrates interest. And then there's the object-model implied, and the socio-political model. Thanks for discussing. Marilyn From aahz at pythoncraft.com Fri Jun 16 20:59:00 2006 From: aahz at pythoncraft.com (Aahz) Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2006 11:59:00 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Challenge/Response email systems In-Reply-To: <4492FB23.5FBDC.5B5D@iris2.directnic.com> References: <4492FB23.5FBDC.5B5D@iris2.directnic.com> Message-ID: <20060616185900.GA17960@panix.com> On Fri, Jun 16, 2006, Marilyn Davis wrote: > ----- On Friday, June 16, 2006 aahz at pythoncraft.com wrote: >> On Thu, Jun 15, 2006, Marilyn Davis wrote: >>> >>> So, is it the same policy? Immediate banishment for any >>> auto-responder that has run amuk? >> >> Absolutely! > > Permanent banishment? Or just until the bug is fixed? Depends. My preference is to avoid stating a specific policy. -- Aahz (aahz at pythoncraft.com) <*> http://www.pythoncraft.com/ "I saw `cout' being shifted "Hello world" times to the left and stopped right there." --Steve Gonedes From spmcinerney at hotmail.com Sat Jun 17 01:22:23 2006 From: spmcinerney at hotmail.com (Stephen McInerney) Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2006 16:22:23 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] RoboGames 2006 @ Fort Mason, SF, Jun 16-18 Message-ID: [Publicising this as it is interesting and marginally on-topic - Stephen] http://www.robogames.net/ Robots doing AI, sumo, art, combat, soccer etc. June 16-18, 2006 Fri: Noon-10 pm (ten hours of fun!!! ) Sat: Noon-11 pm (eleven hours of fun!!! ) Sun: Noon-8 pm (eight hours of fun!!! ) Join us for the largest robot competition in America! Whether you're a sports fan or techno geek, RoboGames is the best event in San Francisco, getting on two of the world's best Top Ten lists: · ESPN put last year's event in Sportscenter's Top Ten and · Wired magazine called RoboGames one of "The Best Ten North American Geek Fests." From wendyxiao9 at gmail.com Sat Jun 17 01:32:49 2006 From: wendyxiao9 at gmail.com (Wendy Xiao) Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2006 16:32:49 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Does anyone have an example of python + wsse:Security header Message-ID: Hi, I would like to use Python to access web services, which requires WS-Security (wsse:Security, UsernameToken ) header, does anyone have such examples using SOAPpy or any other library? Thanks in advance! Wendy -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mail.python.org/pipermail/baypiggies/attachments/20060616/e08fc5f4/attachment-0001.html From annaraven at gmail.com Sat Jun 17 01:37:07 2006 From: annaraven at gmail.com (Anna Ravenscroft) Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2006 16:37:07 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Challenge/Response email systems In-Reply-To: <20060616181430.328241E4005@bag.python.org> References: <20060616181430.328241E4005@bag.python.org> Message-ID: On 6/16/06, Marilyn Davis wrote: > I'm going to trim a lot out of these messages. I hope no one feels I've left out any important context. It is not my intention. > The sender is irritated because she didn't answer the challenge and the mail was important to her? Well, that person is very irritable indeed and maybe I'm better off without having her in my email. > > I'll confess I'm a little confused about the usefulness of this analysis. With a high volume of email, the "challenge" will get lost in it (or worse, caught by a spam filter) and I won't *realise* that I need to respond. I've had a number of instances where I saw the challenge basically "by accident", or found it much later after wondering why I never got a response. > However, if Guido really needed me, to teach a class tomorrow night, to fill in for someone, or something, would he stand on his principle if I could solve a problem for him? If so, I wouldn't know. It would be his loss. If I *needed to reach you*; I very well may have left my phone number for you to contact me on my way out of work (for example) and again, wonder why I got no response, until the next day, at which point, instead of the hoped-for answer, I have to respond to a challenge which delays the whole process. I find that a wee bit frustrating, the times I've encountered it. Or worse, I've emailed the person from one eddress and expect it to get through because I've already answered a challenge, but the latest email is from a different eddress (home vs work) and doesn't get through (which has also happened to me.) Again, frustrating. So, in my case, it wouldn't be a stand on principle, it would be a matter of the C/R system delaying the communication, possibly until too late. Lastly, on a less "practical" plane and more emotional one: my emotional reading of it as a signal is - "oh, this person wants to be left alone. Okay, I won't bother them anymore. " and avoid emailing the person in the future. This may not be the person's intent (and may or may not be a common reading), but it's something users of C/R systems may want to be aware of. -- cordially, Anna -- It is fate, but call it Italy if it pleases you, Vicar! From annaraven at gmail.com Sat Jun 17 01:46:30 2006 From: annaraven at gmail.com (Anna Ravenscroft) Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2006 16:46:30 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Challenge/Response email systems In-Reply-To: References: <20060616181430.328241E4005@bag.python.org> Message-ID: On 6/16/06, Anna Ravenscroft wrote: > Lastly, on a less "practical" plane and more emotional one: my > emotional reading of it as a signal is - "oh, this person wants to be > left alone. Okay, I won't bother them anymore. " and avoid emailing > the person in the future. This may not be the person's intent (and may > or may not be a common reading), but it's something users of C/R > systems may want to be aware of. Ick! I had clicked on "reply to all" to send my response to the lmailing list and it sent a copy automatically to Marilyn. Instead of the usual "reply to this email" challenge, it expects me to click on a link! Talk about a way for spammers to get real eddresses (oh yes, click here!) I don't remember every single person I may have emailed (yes - I probably *do* send far too much email) so no way would I just click on some random link that happened to be in an email. The *least* I would expect would be a copy of my original email to Marilyn so I could at least judge whether it's a legitimate challenge to something I actually sent or something out of the blue from some spammer, without making me have to search through my sent box. [shudder] Sorry but this is a really unpleasant variant of the challenge/response system, imho. Anna From jennyw at dangerousideas.com Sat Jun 17 02:12:11 2006 From: jennyw at dangerousideas.com (jennyw) Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2006 17:12:11 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Challenge/Response email systems In-Reply-To: References: <20060616181430.328241E4005@bag.python.org> Message-ID: <449348DB.2050608@dangerousideas.com> Anna Ravenscroft wrote: > Lastly, on a less "practical" plane and more emotional one: my > emotional reading of it as a signal is - "oh, this person wants to be > left alone. Okay, I won't bother them anymore. " and avoid emailing > the person in the future. This may not be the person's intent (and may > or may not be a common reading), but it's something users of C/R > systems may want to be aware of. > Yeah, I think the real problem is that people who you want to hear from might send you an e-mail, get a challenge, and decide not to bother. Then you don't get an e-mail that you might really want to have received, and whoever it was at the other end might get annoyed with you. The fact that people on this list need to be convinced that challenge-response is a good idea does not bode well for someone using a challenge-response system. I think Bayesian filtering works great. I use SpamBayes (written in Python) and it's been very infrequent that I've had a false positive. In fact, I'd say it's more likely that I'd miss more legitimate e-mail without SpamBayes (by accidentally deleting legit e-mail myself) than with it. My maybe folder gets mostly spam with a few good messages, but I'm willing to look through the few messages that get classified as maybe. I've heard that DSPAM works even better than SpamBayes, but I use SpamBayes because it was so easy to setup and use (at first I used it through IMAP; now I use it through a combination of IMAP for training and procmail for filtering). Jen From listsub at wickedgrey.com Sat Jun 17 04:47:16 2006 From: listsub at wickedgrey.com (Eli Stevens (WG.c)) Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2006 19:47:16 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Spamfighting (was: Challenge/Response email systems) In-Reply-To: <449348DB.2050608@dangerousideas.com> References: <20060616181430.328241E4005@bag.python.org> <449348DB.2050608@dangerousideas.com> Message-ID: <44936D34.9080506@wickedgrey.com> jennyw wrote: > I think Bayesian filtering works great. I use SpamBayes > ... I've used SpamBayes in the past and was pleased with the results. The training required to achieve superlative results can be (were? I haven't used it in a while) a bit overly technical for the average user, but I suspect that anyone on the list wouldn't have any problem with it (and it performs quite well even with sub-optimal training). Currently I use greylisting, and am even more pleased with the results. On the two email addresses that I use publicly (my personal address, and the usenet/mailing list address above) I have gotten a combined total of about 100 spam emails since January 1 of this year. A rough estimate (based on the last 36 hours) is that I reject 100+ spam a day. The only false positives would be from email servers that do not respond between 30 seconds and 20 hours to a temporary reject with a retry from an IP address in the same 8-bit subnet as the original attempt. The main downside to greylisting is the inevitable delay between the first attempt at delivery and the subsequent arrival in my inbox (but each sender address/IP pair that makes it through is whitelisted for 60 days, so in general I only experience the delay once per sender). I like to think of it as C/R at the MTA level. ;) Eli From marilyn at deliberate.com Sat Jun 17 06:05:59 2006 From: marilyn at deliberate.com (Marilyn Davis) Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2006 21:05:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Baypiggies] Challenge/Response email systems In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hi! Thanks for your comments. I guess the social aspects are a matter of taste. JennywWdangerousideas.com: > Yeah, I think the real problem is that people who you want to hear from > might send you an e-mail, get a challenge, and decide not to bother. > Then you don't get an e-mail that you might really want to have > received, and whoever it was at the other end might get annoyed with > you. The fact that people on this list need to be convinced that Oh, I don't know about that. Lots of good ideas meet resistance at first. That's classic human behavior. Time will tell. > challenge-response is a good idea does not bode well for someone using a > challenge-response system. > > I think Bayesian filtering works great. I use SpamBayes (written in (That moved to a new thread ... good idea) On Fri, 16 Jun 2006, Anna Ravenscroft wrote: > On 6/16/06, Anna Ravenscroft wrote: > > > Lastly, on a less "practical" plane and more emotional one: my > > emotional reading of it as a signal is - "oh, this person wants to be > > left alone. Okay, I won't bother them anymore. " and avoid emailing > > the person in the future. This may not be the person's intent (and may > > or may not be a common reading), but it's something users of C/R > > systems may want to be aware of. Hmmm. The plan is to make the challenge message customizable by the user. Then, if the user wants, she can beg and plead for people to respond, saying she really wants to get your message. > > Ick! I had clicked on "reply to all" to send my response to the > lmailing list and it sent a copy automatically to Marilyn. Instead of > the usual "reply to this email" challenge, it expects me to click on a > link! I haven't looked at other CR systems in a long time. They used to all go to the web. I don't quite understand how to do it as a reply-to- the-email-message. The challenge would have one image in the email and ask you to put the response where? The nice thing about going to the web is that we can give people several chances to get it right. The 'reply to this email' auto-responders that I am aware of are not spam preventers, not CR, but Joe Job preventers, called "confirmation" messages. Like, when you made a request to join this list, you received an email asking you to confirm your subscription request. A challenge has to be something that a human can do, but a computer cannot, so a simple reply-to isn't good enough. A Joe Job is an evil prank where someone forges your address to a jillion subscription requests and fake addresses and everything they can find so that your email gets filled up with stuff and becomes unusable. Spammers don't do that because they want to sell you stuff, not ruin your mail and make you angry. > > Talk about a way for spammers to get real eddresses (oh yes, click > here!) I don't remember every single person I may have emailed (yes - > I probably *do* send far too much email) so no way would I just click > on some random link that happened to be in an email. The *least* I > would expect would be a copy of my original email to Marilyn so I > could at least judge whether it's a legitimate challenge to something > I actually sent or something out of the blue from some spammer, > without making me have to search through my sent box. The challenge comes right away, unless the network is broken. It bears the subject line, although it would be a nit to include more of the message. So thank you, I'll think about it. Maybe a the first 10 lines would be a help to someone. > > [shudder] Sorry but this is a really unpleasant variant of the > challenge/response system, imho. Like I said, I don't understand how to do it all in email, and give people more than one chance to get the challenge right. Or, if they get it wrong, do I send them another message with a new image? That seems even more tedious. I don't know. I'll think about it. But if you just sent me a message and yet you don't trust a link I send right back to you, or don't remember that you sent me a personal message, well, I guess I lose that one. I guess it wasn't so personal after all? Anyhow, I do appreciate people taking the time to think about this with me. And I'm glad that the arguments seem to have come down to taste. Some people love it. BTW, it isn't quite bulletproof. Some spammers actually answer the challenge. It's very rare and it tends to be those personal sob stories spams. It's heart-wrenching because I tend to imagine that some poor honest person in trouble spent their last few hundred dollars to buy a spammers' list and they are hoping to get saved from their situation. The only response they get is my challenge, they answer it, and then all quiet. Too much imagination! Thanks again, Marilyn > > Anna > -- From aahz at pythoncraft.com Sat Jun 17 06:11:04 2006 From: aahz at pythoncraft.com (Aahz) Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2006 21:11:04 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Challenge/Response email systems In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20060617041104.GB20932@panix.com> On Fri, Jun 16, 2006, Marilyn Davis wrote: > > I haven't looked at other CR systems in a long time. They used to all > go to the web. I don't quite understand how to do it as a reply-to- > the-email-message. The challenge would have one image in the email > and ask you to put the response where? Oh, an image. And where does that put those of us who mostly use text-only systems or blind people? -- Aahz (aahz at pythoncraft.com) <*> http://www.pythoncraft.com/ "I saw `cout' being shifted "Hello world" times to the left and stopped right there." --Steve Gonedes From annaraven at gmail.com Sat Jun 17 08:03:30 2006 From: annaraven at gmail.com (Anna Ravenscroft) Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2006 23:03:30 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Challenge/Response email systems In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 6/16/06, Marilyn Davis wrote: > Hi! > > Thanks for your comments. > > I guess the social aspects are a matter of taste. Could be. I tend to be pretty prickly about some things. ;-) > > Ick! I had clicked on "reply to all" to send my response to the > > lmailing list and it sent a copy automatically to Marilyn. Instead of > > the usual "reply to this email" challenge, it expects me to click on a > > link! > > I haven't looked at other CR systems in a long time. They used to all > go to the web. I don't quite understand how to do it as a reply-to- > the-email-message. The challenge would have one image in the email > and ask you to put the response where? The nice thing about going to > the web is that we can give people several chances to get it right. Um, what image? I never clicked on the link. I don't click on links unless I've specifically asked for something and am expecting and looking for it. I never asked for a challenge. > The 'reply to this email' auto-responders that I am aware of are not > spam preventers, not CR, but Joe Job preventers, called "confirmation" > messages. Like, when you made a request to join this list, you > received an email asking you to confirm your subscription request. I've gotten "reply to this email" messages for getting through spam-blocks for friends' eddresses in the past. This is the first time I've seen an eddress protection that expects me to click on a link. > > Talk about a way for spammers to get real eddresses (oh yes, click > > here!) I don't remember every single person I may have emailed (yes - > > I probably *do* send far too much email) so no way would I just click > > on some random link that happened to be in an email. The *least* I > > would expect would be a copy of my original email to Marilyn so I > > could at least judge whether it's a legitimate challenge to something > > I actually sent or something out of the blue from some spammer, > > without making me have to search through my sent box. > > The challenge comes right away, unless the network is broken. It > bears the subject line, although it would be a nit to include more of > the message. So thank you, I'll think about it. Maybe a the first 10 > lines would be a help to someone. It would to me. Normally, I hit send and then log out and go on to the rest of my life. I may or may not go back to that eddress any time in the next hour or more (or the next day if it's a work eddress). In which time, I've had 200 emails show up, probably burying any C/R message. By then, no - I won't remember. Especially if it's someone I don't know all that well. > > [shudder] Sorry but this is a really unpleasant variant of the > > challenge/response system, imho. > I don't know. I'll think about it. But if you just sent me a message > and yet you don't trust a link I send right back to you That I get 6 hours later or more? You're assuming something here - I don't always go back to my inbox after hitting send. In fact, *usually* I move onto another window or [gasp] do something offline (like dishes). > , or don't > remember that you sent me a personal message, well, I guess I lose > that one. I guess it wasn't so personal after all? So, you're saying I just shouldn't ever write to anyone that I don't know well enough to immediately recognize their name/eddress in a screen of 200 emails? Hrmmm. Not too sure I agree with that one. > Anyhow, I do appreciate people taking the time to think about this > with me. And I'm glad that the arguments seem to have come down to > taste. And assumptions about behavior. -- cordially, Anna -- It is fate, but call it Italy if it pleases you, Vicar! From marilyn at deliberate.com Sat Jun 17 16:44:42 2006 From: marilyn at deliberate.com (Marilyn Davis) Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2006 07:44:42 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Challenge/Response email systems Message-ID: <20060617144445.8FDEC1E4005@bag.python.org> ----- On Friday, June 16, 2006 aahz at pythoncraft.com wrote: > On Fri, Jun 16, 2006, Marilyn Davis wrote: >> >> I haven't looked at other CR systems in a long time. They used to all >> go to the web. I don't quite understand how to do it as a reply-to- >> the-email-message. The challenge would have one image in the email >> and ask you to put the response where? > > Oh, an image. And where does that put those of us who mostly use > text-only systems or blind people? Now that is an issue! What is the right thing? Provide a telephone number? After a night's sleep I remembered the problem we see with Ken's suggestion: > My understanding is that there are a couple kinds of CR systems. One kind > is blind, and sends a > challenge to anyone not on a whitelist (call this Blind CR), and another > kind that only sends a challenge when the email is: > > 1. Not on whitelist. > 2. Has a moderately high spam score. > 3. Doesn't have a super high spam score (just dump these in the spam > bucket). Say that Guido's message had a low spam score and was delivered into my inbox. Does that automatically put him on my white list? What if his second message has a high spam score? Does he get a challenge on his second message? Ken, do you know how that works? Marilyn > -- > Aahz (aahz at pythoncraft.com) http://www.pythoncraft.com/ > > "I saw `cout' being shifted "Hello world" times to the left and stopped > right there." --Steve Gonedes > _______________________________________________ > Baypiggies mailing list > Baypiggies at python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies From ken at seehart.com Sat Jun 17 20:19:59 2006 From: ken at seehart.com (Ken Seehart) Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2006 11:19:59 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Challenge/Response email systems In-Reply-To: <20060617144445.8FDEC1E4005@bag.python.org> References: <20060617144445.8FDEC1E4005@bag.python.org> Message-ID: <449447CF.9020009@seehart.com> Marilyn Davis wrote: > ----- On Friday, June 16, 2006 aahz at pythoncraft.com wrote: > > >> On Fri, Jun 16, 2006, Marilyn Davis wrote: >> >>> I haven't looked at other CR systems in a long time. They used to all >>> go to the web. I don't quite understand how to do it as a reply-to- >>> the-email-message. The challenge would have one image in the email >>> and ask you to put the response where? >>> >> Oh, an image. And where does that put those of us who mostly use >> text-only systems or blind people? >> > > Now that is an issue! What is the right thing? Provide a telephone number? > > After a night's sleep I remembered the problem we see with Ken's suggestion: > > >> My understanding is that there are a couple kinds of CR systems. One kind >> is blind, and sends a >> challenge to anyone not on a whitelist (call this Blind CR), and another >> kind that only sends a challenge when the email is: >> >> 1. Not on whitelist. >> 2. Has a moderately high spam score. >> 3. Doesn't have a super high spam score (just dump these in the spam >> bucket). >> > > Say that Guido's message had a low spam score and was delivered into my inbox. Does that automatically put him on my white list? What if his second message has a high spam score? Does he get a challenge on his second message? > > Ken, do you know how that works? > > Marilyn > I don't know how existing systems work. The way I would want it to be implemented is this: It would temporarily light-gray-list him due to his good looking email, but if the user puts that message in the spam bucket later, he is removed from the light-gray-list, and send a challenge. :-) Of course if you respond the the first email, he is permanently whitelisted. Perhaps reading an email without marking it as spam should whitelist the sender (this being reversible if the mail is later put in the spam bucket). Such a system would need to have memory of why senders are whitelisted, etc. Anyway, after much debate, I have decided to join the anti-CR league. (though I will happily respond to CR requests from others, provided the CR requests don't wind up in my spam bucket. /My spam filter needs to have very few (or no) false positives/. Any time a legitimate sender fails to reply to my CR for whatever reason, that would be effectively the same as a false positive. BTW, a system that puts my false positives in a bucket (whether server side or client side) along with all my spam that I can sort through later, is almost completely useless, since, for me, the purpose of a spam filter is to save me the trouble of manually sorting through spam. Temporarily postponing the job of sorting through junk mail just means that I am likely to occasionally bury important email for a couple weeks. However, no time is saved, so I gain nothing. - Ken -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mail.python.org/pipermail/baypiggies/attachments/20060617/0d852274/attachment.htm From marilyn at deliberate.com Sat Jun 17 21:06:44 2006 From: marilyn at deliberate.com (Marilyn Davis) Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2006 12:06:44 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Challenge/Response email systems Message-ID: <20060617190647.4C6861E4005@bag.python.org> ----- On Saturday, June 17, 2006 ken at seehart.com wrote: > Marilyn Davis wrote: > > ----- On Friday, June 16, 2006 aahz at pythoncraft.com wrote: > > > > On Fri, Jun 16, 2006, Marilyn Davis wrote: > > > I haven't looked at other CR systems in a long time. They used to all > go to the web. I don't quite understand how to do it as a reply-to- > the-email-message. The challenge would have one image in the email > and ask you to put the response where? > > > Oh, an image. And where does that put those of us who mostly use > text-only systems or blind people? > > > > Now that is an issue! What is the right thing? Provide a telephone number? > > After a night's sleep I remembered the problem we see with Ken's suggestion: > > > > My understanding is that there are a couple kinds of CR systems. One kind > is blind, and sends a > challenge to anyone not on a whitelist (call this Blind CR), and another > kind that only sends a challenge when the email is: > > 1. Not on whitelist. > 2. Has a moderately high spam score. > 3. Doesn't have a super high spam score (just dump these in the spam > bucket). > > > > Say that Guido's message had a low spam score and was delivered into my inbox. Does that automatically put him on my white list? What if his second message has a high spam score? Does he get a challenge on his second message? > > Ken, do you know how that works? > > Marilyn > > > I don't know how existing systems work.  The way I would want it to be > implemented is this:  It would temporarily light-gray-list him due to > his good looking email, but if the user puts that message in the spam > bucket later, he is removed from the light-gray-list, and send a > challenge. :-) I don't think I'd send a challenge. I guess if the user puts the message in the spam bucket, we ought not let the guy get it back into the inbox. > > Of course if you respond the the first email, he is permanently > whitelisted. > > Perhaps reading an email without marking it as spam should whitelist > the sender (this being reversible if the mail is later put in the spam > bucket). > > Such a system would need to have memory of why senders are whitelisted, > etc. We keep lots of data. This would be no problem. > > Anyway, after much debate, I have decided to join the anti-CR league.  > (though I will happily respond to CR requests from others, provided the > CR requests don't wind up in my spam bucket.  My spam filter needs > to have very few (or no) false positives.  Any time a legitimate > sender fails to reply to my CR for whatever reason, that would be > effectively the same as a false positive. > > BTW, a system that puts my false positives in a bucket (whether server > side or client side) along with all my spam that I can sort through > later, is almost completely useless, since, for me, the purpose of a > spam filter is to save me the trouble of manually sorting through spam. > Temporarily postponing the job of sorting through junk mail just means > that I am likely to occasionally bury important email for a couple > weeks.  However, no time is saved, so I gain nothing. Yeh. That's no good in my eyeballs too. Thanks for the spec. I think I'll lobby for something like this in the next iteration. Marilyn > > - Ken From p at ulmcnett.com Sat Jun 17 21:07:05 2006 From: p at ulmcnett.com (Paul McNett) Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2006 12:07:05 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Challenge/Response email systems In-Reply-To: <9a0545880606160909s63d9a7e5u83c7829b243de788@mail.gmail.com> References: <20060615230735.47AD81E4003@bag.python.org> <20060615233720.GA25846@panix.com> <20060616005900.GA20648@panix.com> <4492D50F.1070208@seehart.com> <9a0545880606160909s63d9a7e5u83c7829b243de788@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <449452D9.8080809@ulmcnett.com> steve hindle wrote: > On 6/16/06, Ken Seehart wrote: >> 4. Is there anything as bulletproof as CR, but without the problems? And I >> am not asking about >> better filters (that's just an ongoing battle against better spam). >> > > I know the 'designated sender' system(s?) were causing a stir a while back... > I forget the acroynm but I believe it worked by adding DNS records > indicating which mail servers were 'authorized' to originate mail for > a particular domain. I believe AOL was backing/implementing a version > of it. Don't know what the outcome was, but I sure someone on the > list can shed more light on it. SPF (sender policy framework). http://www.openspf.org/ If every domain would put a SPF record in their DNS, and if every mail system would verify and drop mail that was sent from a source that didn't match the domain's SPF record, then spoofed mail would be a thing of the past. At which point, C/R systems could actually have a hope of working. At the moment, my mail server filters hundreds of junk mail per hour. But only a handful of the domains where the junk mail is allegedly coming from have SPF records set up. All the big ISP's are tending to have SPF records these days, though. -- Paul McNett http://paulmcnett.com http://dabodev.com From ross at pcnt.com Mon Jun 19 07:29:31 2006 From: ross at pcnt.com (Ross Parlette) Date: Sun, 18 Jun 2006 22:29:31 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] C/R Scaling Message-ID: In all the discussion of Challenge / Response I have not seen what I regard as the non-scaling flaw. A long time ago, I read that one should conduct one's life in such a way that if many (or all?) others did likewise, disaster would not result. Perhaps my analysis is in error, but I believe that C/R fails here. Now I currently get my BayPiggies mail via the daily summary, so all mail is from baypiggies-request at python dot org. I changed over to this because the mailing list was flooding my inbox and my pathetic mail system does not have good means for handling this. But prior to this, I received individual messages, which served before the discussions of name-change and similar topics produced a plethora of mail. I have looked back at those messages and they did not come from baypiggies dot org, but appeared to come from people like Aahz, Donna Snow, w chun, etc. Presumably these were spoofed by the forwarder (note discussion of SPF). Now consider what would happen if all on a Sunday, 90% of the members of the list were to adopt a C/R system. At the time I was receiving individual messages, I did not reply to the individuals, but rather to the list (as Aahz has indicated it the proper thing to do), so by default the members of the list would not go on my white list thereby. However, those fools who posted to the list would be met by a flurry of C/R from everyone else on the list (who had C/R) and this would happen to every person who posted (at least once; I'm not sure I understand the full panoply of C/R options). As new persons joined the list or added C/R to their e-mail program, a new bucket of C/R would flow across the net. Consider also that the BP list is not primarily used for "Can you, in particular, help me out with this specific task?" Rather is seems to be (when working properly, not something I have seen a lot of lately) an area for persuasion and encouragement. Sorry that I don't have 25 prior messages and sigs embedded in this letter, but I hope you all can overlook that. Ross At Parbar westward, four at the causeway, and two at Parbar. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mail.python.org/pipermail/baypiggies/attachments/20060618/348e0a7f/attachment.html From dekonerding at lbl.gov Mon Jun 19 16:54:40 2006 From: dekonerding at lbl.gov (David E. Konerding) Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2006 07:54:40 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Does anyone have an example of python + wsse:Security header In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4496BAB0.3060900@lbl.gov> Wendy Xiao wrote: > Hi, > > I would like to use Python to access web services, > which requires WS-Security (wsse:Security, UsernameToken ) header, > does anyone have such examples using SOAPpy or any other library? > > Thanks in advance! > Wendy Wendy, The latest versions of ZSI and pyGridWare http://pywebsvcs.sourceforge.net/ http://dsd.lbl.gov/gtg/projects/pyGridWare/ have support for WS-Security. I'm not 100% certain that UsernameToken is supported, but there does look like there is code in ZSI for it. Dave From dekonerding at lbl.gov Mon Jun 19 17:05:36 2006 From: dekonerding at lbl.gov (David E. Konerding) Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2006 08:05:36 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Does anyone have an example of python + wsse:Security header In-Reply-To: <4496BAB0.3060900@lbl.gov> References: <4496BAB0.3060900@lbl.gov> Message-ID: <4496BD40.9000603@lbl.gov> David E. Konerding wrote: > Wendy Xiao wrote: > >> Hi, >> >> I would like to use Python to access web services, >> which requires WS-Security (wsse:Security, UsernameToken ) header, >> does anyone have such examples using SOAPpy or any other library? >> >> Thanks in advance! >> Wendy >> > > Wendy, > > The latest versions of ZSI and pyGridWare > > http://pywebsvcs.sourceforge.net/ > http://dsd.lbl.gov/gtg/projects/pyGridWare/ > > have support for WS-Security. I'm not 100% certain that UsernameToken > is supported, but there does look like there > is code in ZSI for it. > PS: there are a few WS-Security example in the zsi/tests directory. Dave From marilyn at deliberate.com Mon Jun 19 18:51:43 2006 From: marilyn at deliberate.com (Marilyn Davis) Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2006 09:51:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Baypiggies] C/R Scaling In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hi Ross, Nice to see you in the discussion. On Sun, 18 Jun 2006, Ross Parlette wrote: > In all the discussion of Challenge / Response I have not seen what I regard > as the non-scaling flaw. > > A long time ago, I read that one should conduct one's life in such a way > that if many (or all?) others did likewise, disaster would not result. Oh yes! I do my best to behave like this. In fact I try to live my life in such a way that if all did likewise, our earth would be saved. It's very hard to know how to do that though. > Perhaps my analysis is in error, but I believe that C/R fails here. Ah ha. See below. > > Now I currently get my BayPiggies mail via the daily summary, so all mail is > from baypiggies-request at python dot org. I changed over to this because > the mailing list was flooding my inbox and my pathetic mail system does not > have good means for handling this. > > But prior to this, I received individual messages, which served before the > discussions of name-change and similar topics produced a plethora of mail. I > have looked back at those messages and they did not come from baypiggies dot > org, but appeared to come from people like Aahz, Donna Snow, w chun, etc. > Presumably these were spoofed by the forwarder (note discussion of SPF). Here are some important headers from your mail: Return-path: Precedence: list Absolutely from a list! So no challenge is sent. There's also this: From: "Ross Parlette" To: "BayPiggies" Whenever the To: header doesn't have my address, it is either bulk mail, or mail that is forwarded from an alias. So that is also bulk mail. Sometimes there's: To: "BayPiggies" , marilyn at deliberate.com so having my address in the To: header isn't enough to know it's personal, but not having my address in the To: is sufficient to know it is bulk. So, there is no good excuse for a C/R system to send a challenge in response to bulk mail. It is the same problem with vacation messages. They must not be sent in response to bulk mail, but some broken ones do. I hope this answers your question. Note that you did not get a challenge. But, assuming we haven't written each other previously, if you send me, not the list, a little test message, you can see the challenge. Marilyn > > Now consider what would happen if all on a Sunday, 90% of the members of the > list were to adopt a C/R system. At the time I was receiving individual > messages, I did not reply to the individuals, but rather to the list (as > Aahz has indicated it the proper thing to do), so by default the members of > the list would not go on my white list thereby. However, those fools who > posted to the list would be met by a flurry of C/R from everyone else on the > list (who had C/R) and this would happen to every person who posted (at > least once; I'm not sure I understand the full panoply of C/R options). As > new persons joined the list or added C/R to their e-mail program, a new > bucket of C/R would flow across the net. > > Consider also that the BP list is not primarily used for "Can you, in > particular, help me out with this specific task?" Rather is seems to be > (when working properly, not something I have seen a lot of lately) an area > for persuasion and encouragement. > > Sorry that I don't have 25 prior messages and sigs embedded in this letter, > but I hope you all can overlook that. > > Ross > > At Parbar westward, four at the causeway, and two at Parbar. > > -- From mech422 at gmail.com Mon Jun 19 19:13:37 2006 From: mech422 at gmail.com (steve hindle) Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2006 10:13:37 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] list mail and gmail ? Message-ID: <9a0545880606191013t509fdd11w2b7b0e34b439141e@mail.gmail.com> Since we're discussing email schtuff... Anyone reading the list via gmail ?? I haven't figured out how to get gmail to reply to the list. 'Reply' and 'Reply all' all seem to want to send back to the individual. I end up having to manually insert the list address. I admit I haven't spent a lot of time fiddling with it though, so maybe I'm missing something basic? Hmm - I should prolly look at the headers and see if there is a 'reply-to' header on the list traffic ?? TIA Steve From annaraven at gmail.com Mon Jun 19 19:23:18 2006 From: annaraven at gmail.com (Anna Ravenscroft) Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2006 10:23:18 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] list mail and gmail ? In-Reply-To: <9a0545880606191013t509fdd11w2b7b0e34b439141e@mail.gmail.com> References: <9a0545880606191013t509fdd11w2b7b0e34b439141e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On 6/19/06, steve hindle wrote: > Since we're discussing email schtuff... > > Anyone reading the list via gmail ?? I haven't figured out how to get > gmail to reply to the list. 'Reply' and 'Reply all' all seem to want > to send back to the individual. I end up having to manually insert > the list address. I admit I haven't spent a lot of time fiddling with > it though, so maybe I'm missing something basic? Hmm - I should > prolly look at the headers and see if there is a 'reply-to' header on > the list traffic ?? "Reply to all" puts baypiggies in the cc line. "Reply" just sends to the particualr individual. I believe this is to avoid people accidentally sending private emails to the list (which occasionally happens otherwise). -- cordially, Anna -- It is fate, but call it Italy if it pleases you, Vicar! From kenobi at gmail.com Mon Jun 19 19:26:57 2006 From: kenobi at gmail.com (Rick Kwan) Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2006 10:26:57 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] list mail and gmail ? In-Reply-To: <9a0545880606191013t509fdd11w2b7b0e34b439141e@mail.gmail.com> References: <9a0545880606191013t509fdd11w2b7b0e34b439141e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: This reply is generated by using the "reply to all" lin below the message in gmail. It has Steve in the "To" field, and "baypiggies at python.org" in the "Cc:" field. I didn't see a "Reply-To" header above the message text. However, I recall another list where I administer Mailman; there is a configurable listadmin choice of reply-to-list vs reply-to-poster. --Rick Kwan On 6/19/06, steve hindle wrote: > Since we're discussing email schtuff... > > Anyone reading the list via gmail ?? I haven't figured out how to get > gmail to reply to the list. 'Reply' and 'Reply all' all seem to want > to send back to the individual. I end up having to manually insert > the list address. I admit I haven't spent a lot of time fiddling with > it though, so maybe I'm missing something basic? Hmm - I should > prolly look at the headers and see if there is a 'reply-to' header on > the list traffic ?? > > TIA > Steve > _______________________________________________ > Baypiggies mailing list > Baypiggies at python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies > From mech422 at gmail.com Mon Jun 19 19:28:40 2006 From: mech422 at gmail.com (steve hindle) Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2006 10:28:40 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] list mail and gmail ? In-Reply-To: References: <9a0545880606191013t509fdd11w2b7b0e34b439141e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <9a0545880606191028y6634802eg37009e12cbe10a31@mail.gmail.com> On 6/19/06, Anna Ravenscroft wrote: > > "Reply to all" puts baypiggies in the cc line. "Reply" just sends to > the particualr individual. I believe this is to avoid people Oops - your right, I mis-spoke. The problem with that is I then have to manually erase the 'To' field and move the mailing list addy from 'cc' to 'to'. Again, probably something dumb I'm doing - I'm not too fond of gmail, so I haven't poked with it much. Steve From mech422 at gmail.com Mon Jun 19 19:34:04 2006 From: mech422 at gmail.com (steve hindle) Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2006 10:34:04 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] list mail and gmail ? In-Reply-To: References: <9a0545880606191013t509fdd11w2b7b0e34b439141e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <9a0545880606191034m183b45b8yfcc5cb4526e2f4ac@mail.gmail.com> On 6/19/06, Rick Kwan wrote: > > However, I recall another list where I administer Mailman; there is a > configurable listadmin choice of reply-to-list vs reply-to-poster. > Heh - thats a whole nother religous debate. I seem to be in the minority that feel group communications should default to group response. But for now, I'd be happy to just get gmail to behave. I really don't want it to send BOTH a private response AND a list response, and generally the list response is the one I want. I'll just have to get TBird back up and running I guess... Steve From annaraven at gmail.com Mon Jun 19 20:13:45 2006 From: annaraven at gmail.com (Anna Ravenscroft) Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2006 11:13:45 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] list mail and gmail ? In-Reply-To: <9a0545880606191034m183b45b8yfcc5cb4526e2f4ac@mail.gmail.com> References: <9a0545880606191013t509fdd11w2b7b0e34b439141e@mail.gmail.com> <9a0545880606191034m183b45b8yfcc5cb4526e2f4ac@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On 6/19/06, steve hindle wrote: > On 6/19/06, Rick Kwan wrote: > > > > However, I recall another list where I administer Mailman; there is a > > configurable listadmin choice of reply-to-list vs reply-to-poster. > > > > Heh - thats a whole nother religous debate. I seem to be in the > minority that feel group communications should default to group > response. I feel the same way. > But for now, I'd be happy to just get gmail to behave. I > really don't want it to send BOTH a private response AND a list > response, and generally the list response is the one I want. Unfortunately, the way the list is set up, that's what is supposed to happen. You have to act to send to the list instead of it being a default. My other lists are setup to default to the list and I don't have any problems with them - and I use gmail almost exclusively. -- cordially, Anna -- It is fate, but call it Italy if it pleases you, Vicar! From annaraven at gmail.com Mon Jun 19 20:16:28 2006 From: annaraven at gmail.com (Anna Ravenscroft) Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2006 11:16:28 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] list mail and gmail ? In-Reply-To: References: <9a0545880606191013t509fdd11w2b7b0e34b439141e@mail.gmail.com> <9a0545880606191034m183b45b8yfcc5cb4526e2f4ac@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On 6/19/06, Anna Ravenscroft wrote: > > > But for now, I'd be happy to just get gmail to behave. I > > really don't want it to send BOTH a private response AND a list > > response, and generally the list response is the one I want. > > Unfortunately, the way the list is set up, that's what is supposed to > happen. To clarify: the list setup is what tells gmail that baypiggies is a cc: instead of a To: In other words, gmail is behaving: it's doing exactly what the list maintainers want it to do, rather than what you want it to do. Unfortunately, gmail doesn't have a "workaround" to override the list default. -- cordially, Anna -- It is fate, but call it Italy if it pleases you, Vicar! From aleax at google.com Mon Jun 19 20:24:02 2006 From: aleax at google.com (Alex Martelli) Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2006 11:24:02 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] list mail and gmail ? In-Reply-To: References: <9a0545880606191013t509fdd11w2b7b0e34b439141e@mail.gmail.com> <9a0545880606191034m183b45b8yfcc5cb4526e2f4ac@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <55dc209b0606191124u62f20693r661085b62bad48b1@mail.google.com> On 6/19/06, Anna Ravenscroft wrote: > > On 6/19/06, Anna Ravenscroft wrote: > > > > > But for now, I'd be happy to just get gmail to behave. I > > > really don't want it to send BOTH a private response AND a list > > > response, and generally the list response is the one I want. > > > > Unfortunately, the way the list is set up, that's what is supposed to > > happen. > > To clarify: the list setup is what tells gmail that baypiggies is a > cc: instead of a To: > In other words, gmail is behaving: it's doing exactly what the list > maintainers want it to do, rather than what you want it to do. > Unfortunately, gmail doesn't have a "workaround" to override the list > default. My "workaround" is always to use reply-to-all -- I like it when other people do that, because then I can set my mail rules (on both gmail, and Mail.appon my Mac) to tag or classify the responses (which are "To:" me and "Cc:" the list) as both "addressed to me personally, shd get to it soon" AND "addressed to this specific list" (and I can get around to various lists with lower priority depending on my available time). I don't have precise stats but it seems to me that many people ARE similarly defaulting to "reply to all", just like I do, and perhaps for similar reasons. Unfortunately, this may cause C/R requests to come back to me, of course;-) Alex -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mail.python.org/pipermail/baypiggies/attachments/20060619/352a2259/attachment.htm From aahz at pythoncraft.com Mon Jun 19 20:29:25 2006 From: aahz at pythoncraft.com (Aahz) Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2006 11:29:25 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] list mail and gmail ? In-Reply-To: References: <9a0545880606191013t509fdd11w2b7b0e34b439141e@mail.gmail.com> <9a0545880606191034m183b45b8yfcc5cb4526e2f4ac@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20060619182925.GA5757@panix.com> On Mon, Jun 19, 2006, Anna Ravenscroft wrote: > > To clarify: the list setup is what tells gmail that baypiggies is a > cc: instead of a To: > In other words, gmail is behaving: it's doing exactly what the list > maintainers want it to do, rather than what you want it to do. All correct! As you said earlier, my experience is that it's overall worth some nuisance in sending e-mail to the list because that keeps private e-mail off-list. > Unfortunately, gmail doesn't have a "workaround" to override the list > default. That's what mutt is for. ;-) -- Aahz (aahz at pythoncraft.com) <*> http://www.pythoncraft.com/ "I saw `cout' being shifted "Hello world" times to the left and stopped right there." --Steve Gonedes From annaraven at gmail.com Mon Jun 19 20:48:08 2006 From: annaraven at gmail.com (Anna Ravenscroft) Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2006 11:48:08 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] list mail and gmail ? In-Reply-To: <20060619182925.GA5757@panix.com> References: <9a0545880606191013t509fdd11w2b7b0e34b439141e@mail.gmail.com> <9a0545880606191034m183b45b8yfcc5cb4526e2f4ac@mail.gmail.com> <20060619182925.GA5757@panix.com> Message-ID: On 6/19/06, Aahz wrote: > On Mon, Jun 19, 2006, Anna Ravenscroft wrote: > > > > To clarify: the list setup is what tells gmail that baypiggies is a > > cc: instead of a To: > > In other words, gmail is behaving: it's doing exactly what the list > > maintainers want it to do, rather than what you want it to do. > > All correct! As you said earlier, my experience is that it's overall > worth some nuisance in sending e-mail to the list because that keeps > private e-mail off-list. I wish it worked. ;-) If I'm in the habit of hitting "reply to all" to reply to this list, then I'm probably going to hit that when replying, even when I'm replying to the individual. Oops. We've seen it happen on this list before. I've done it too and felt really silly afterwards. Ah well. Can't make anything idiot-proof - idiots are far too ingenious! (and we all have "idiot" moments.) What I will *not* do is go out of my way to change the default reply-to-all behavior. If the list-owners want the only way to reply to the list is to send an email "To" the person and "cc" the list, then that's what's gonna happen. Certainly you don't expect every single person on the list to edit the to-line every time they send a reply to the list. I was actually surprised to hear that anyone does that. Anyways, I know I'm on the minority side for this, so I just accept the default of "reply to all" and figure the majority want their mailboxes cluttered with extra copies of emails in order for me to reply to the mailing list. (I'm not sure *why* people want this, but that's their preference, apparently.) cordially, Anna From DennisR at dair.com Mon Jun 19 20:54:35 2006 From: DennisR at dair.com (Dennis Reinhardt) Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2006 11:54:35 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] list mail and gmail ? In-Reply-To: <55dc209b0606191124u62f20693r661085b62bad48b1@mail.google.c om> References: <9a0545880606191013t509fdd11w2b7b0e34b439141e@mail.gmail.com> <9a0545880606191034m183b45b8yfcc5cb4526e2f4ac@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20060619114936.00c007c0@localhost> At 11:24 AM 6/19/2006, Alex Martelli wrote: My "workaround" is always to use reply-to-all -- I like it when other people do that, Alex, Does this result in you getting two message copies? It does for me and perhaps this is an artifact of the mail system I am using. I have always tried to trim out individual responses for this reason and reply to the list alone. I can see how "To: aleax and Cc: BayPiggies" is a useful filter rule. ---------------------------------- | Dennis | DennisR at dair.com | | Reinhardt | Powerful Anti-Spam | ---------------------------------- From mech422 at gmail.com Mon Jun 19 21:11:04 2006 From: mech422 at gmail.com (steve hindle) Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2006 12:11:04 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] list mail and gmail ? In-Reply-To: References: <9a0545880606191013t509fdd11w2b7b0e34b439141e@mail.gmail.com> <9a0545880606191034m183b45b8yfcc5cb4526e2f4ac@mail.gmail.com> <20060619182925.GA5757@panix.com> Message-ID: <9a0545880606191211hb6847eeo8f1fe57cca47cb52@mail.gmail.com> On 6/19/06, Anna Ravenscroft wrote: > > I wish it worked. ;-) If I'm in the habit of hitting "reply to all" to > reply to this list, then I'm probably going to hit that when replying, > even when I'm replying to the individual. Oops. We've seen it happen > on this list before. I've done it too and felt really silly > afterwards. Ah well. Can't make anything idiot-proof - idiots are far > too ingenious! (and we all have "idiot" moments.) > I agree - neither system is perfect. I just wish the (IMHO) 'common case' of wanting to sent group communications back to the group didn't require extra work. The main justification I've seen for this is "some geek wrote a paper about how he embarassed himself one time.." btw - spammers must lists using this style. They can just subscribe a bot to the list, and harvest people's addresses as messages go by.... Steve From guido at python.org Mon Jun 19 21:28:08 2006 From: guido at python.org (Guido van Rossum) Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2006 12:28:08 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] list mail and gmail ? In-Reply-To: <9a0545880606191211hb6847eeo8f1fe57cca47cb52@mail.gmail.com> References: <9a0545880606191013t509fdd11w2b7b0e34b439141e@mail.gmail.com> <9a0545880606191034m183b45b8yfcc5cb4526e2f4ac@mail.gmail.com> <20060619182925.GA5757@panix.com> <9a0545880606191211hb6847eeo8f1fe57cca47cb52@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On 6/19/06, steve hindle wrote: > I agree - neither system is perfect. I just wish the (IMHO) 'common > case' of wanting to sent group communications back to the group didn't > require extra work. The main justification I've seen for this is > "some geek wrote a paper about how he embarassed himself one time.." What do you mean by "require extra work"? In most mailers that I know the reply and reply-all have pretty much equal status. -- --Guido van Rossum (home page: http://www.python.org/~guido/) From webmaven at cox.net Mon Jun 19 21:10:46 2006 From: webmaven at cox.net (Michael Bernstein) Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2006 12:10:46 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] list mail and gmail ? In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20060619114936.00c007c0@localhost> References: <9a0545880606191013t509fdd11w2b7b0e34b439141e@mail.gmail.com> <9a0545880606191034m183b45b8yfcc5cb4526e2f4ac@mail.gmail.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20060619114936.00c007c0@localhost> Message-ID: <1150744247.4323.67.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Mon, 2006-06-19 at 11:54 -0700, Dennis Reinhardt wrote: > > Does this result in you getting two message copies? It does for me and > perhaps this is an artifact of the mail system I am using. Mailman has an option (that you can configure for yourself) to not send you email through the list that you are already CC'd on. - Michael R. Bernstein michaelbernstein.com From annaraven at gmail.com Mon Jun 19 21:41:47 2006 From: annaraven at gmail.com (Anna Ravenscroft) Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2006 12:41:47 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] list mail and gmail ? In-Reply-To: References: <9a0545880606191013t509fdd11w2b7b0e34b439141e@mail.gmail.com> <9a0545880606191034m183b45b8yfcc5cb4526e2f4ac@mail.gmail.com> <20060619182925.GA5757@panix.com> <9a0545880606191211hb6847eeo8f1fe57cca47cb52@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On 6/19/06, Guido van Rossum wrote: > On 6/19/06, steve hindle wrote: > > I agree - neither system is perfect. I just wish the (IMHO) 'common > > case' of wanting to sent group communications back to the group didn't > > require extra work. The main justification I've seen for this is > > "some geek wrote a paper about how he embarassed himself one time.." > > What do you mean by "require extra work"? In most mailers that I know > the reply and reply-all have pretty much equal status. > A reply-to-all for this email, for example, the headers on gmail read: To: Guido... CC: Steve Hindle..., baypiggies... If you don't want to send an email to Guido and Steve as well as to baypiggies, you have to edit the To and CC lines. Some people do that extra work. Some of us don't bother and just let it go whereever the list-owner set it up to go. If you just hit "reply", it only would go to you, not to baypiggies. -- cordially, Anna -- It is fate, but call it Italy if it pleases you, Vicar! From aleax at google.com Mon Jun 19 21:42:00 2006 From: aleax at google.com (Alex Martelli) Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2006 12:42:00 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] list mail and gmail ? In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20060619114936.00c007c0@localhost> References: <9a0545880606191013t509fdd11w2b7b0e34b439141e@mail.gmail.com> <9a0545880606191034m183b45b8yfcc5cb4526e2f4ac@mail.gmail.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20060619114936.00c007c0@localhost> Message-ID: <55dc209b0606191242t11a43e5fge41b16e998cb44a1@mail.google.com> On 6/19/06, Dennis Reinhardt wrote: > > At 11:24 AM 6/19/2006, Alex Martelli wrote: > My "workaround" is always to use reply-to-all -- > I like it when other people do that, > > Alex, > > Does this result in you getting two message copies? It does for me and > perhaps this is an artifact of the mail system I am using. Yes, depending on the receiving system I can get one copy or two, but on Mail.app I can explicitly make a second copy when needed (to have one copy in the mail mailbox that's for "stuff addressed to me diretly and personally", and one in the other, "stuff from this mailing list" mbox) and in gmail I don't need it anyway (since each message can have as many labels as I want, it can be "in" as many ``mailboxes'' as I want;-). I have always tried to trim out individual responses for this reason and > reply to the list alone. > > I can see how "To: aleax and Cc: BayPiggies" is a useful filter rule. the "to: aleax" would ensure it gets in my "look at these ASAP" main mailbox (unless preempted by other rules blocking it from there), and the Cc: (just like the To:) for the mlist would ensure it gets in the "baypiggies" mailbox. If it only goes in the latter, NP, I may not just get around to it quite as promptly;-). Alex -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mail.python.org/pipermail/baypiggies/attachments/20060619/49910738/attachment.html From kenobi at gmail.com Mon Jun 19 21:59:38 2006 From: kenobi at gmail.com (Rick Kwan) Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2006 12:59:38 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] list mail and gmail ? In-Reply-To: References: <9a0545880606191013t509fdd11w2b7b0e34b439141e@mail.gmail.com> <9a0545880606191034m183b45b8yfcc5cb4526e2f4ac@mail.gmail.com> <20060619182925.GA5757@panix.com> Message-ID: On 6/19/06, Anna Ravenscroft wrote: > On 6/19/06, Aahz wrote: > > On Mon, Jun 19, 2006, Anna Ravenscroft wrote: > > > > > > To clarify: the list setup is what tells gmail that baypiggies is a > > > cc: instead of a To: > > > In other words, gmail is behaving: it's doing exactly what the list > > > maintainers want it to do, rather than what you want it to do. > > > > All correct! As you said earlier, my experience is that it's overall > > worth some nuisance in sending e-mail to the list because that keeps > > private e-mail off-list. > > I wish it worked. ;-) If I'm in the habit of hitting "reply to all" to > reply to this list, then I'm probably going to hit that when replying, > even when I'm replying to the individual. Oops. We've seen it happen > on this list before. I've done it too and felt really silly > afterwards. Ah well. Can't make anything idiot-proof - idiots are far > too ingenious! (and we all have "idiot" moments.) > > What I will *not* do is go out of my way to change the default > reply-to-all behavior. If the list-owners want the only way to reply > to the list is to send an email "To" the person and "cc" the list, > then that's what's gonna happen. Certainly you don't expect every > single person on the list to edit the to-line every time they send a > reply to the list. I was actually surprised to hear that anyone does > that. I believe that 'anyone' = 'me' in this case. :-) For that list, I originally had Mailman configured so that replies go to the list. However, there were several user who were surprised to see replies they had intended for the an original sender end up on the whole list. These users are not computer scientists or web developers, but rather engineers (plus a few teachers , biologists, and physical scientists) working on non-computer end products. I don't know what types of mail clients they were using, how the options were presented to them, or how much they participate in other lists; but I'm starting to suspect that these all were factors. As for replying to the whole list, I suspect they have the list address in their addressbooks already. A few keystrokes then match the address desired. So far, no one has complained about the change, and list traffic is only slightly reduced. --Rick Kwan From guido at python.org Mon Jun 19 22:00:05 2006 From: guido at python.org (Guido van Rossum) Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2006 13:00:05 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] list mail and gmail ? In-Reply-To: References: <9a0545880606191013t509fdd11w2b7b0e34b439141e@mail.gmail.com> <9a0545880606191034m183b45b8yfcc5cb4526e2f4ac@mail.gmail.com> <20060619182925.GA5757@panix.com> <9a0545880606191211hb6847eeo8f1fe57cca47cb52@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On 6/19/06, Anna Ravenscroft wrote: > On 6/19/06, Guido van Rossum wrote: > > On 6/19/06, steve hindle wrote: > > > I agree - neither system is perfect. I just wish the (IMHO) 'common > > > case' of wanting to sent group communications back to the group didn't > > > require extra work. The main justification I've seen for this is > > > "some geek wrote a paper about how he embarassed himself one time.." > > > > What do you mean by "require extra work"? In most mailers that I know > > the reply and reply-all have pretty much equal status. > > A reply-to-all for this email, for example, the headers on gmail read: > To: Guido... > CC: Steve Hindle..., baypiggies... > > If you don't want to send an email to Guido and Steve as well as to > baypiggies, you have to edit the To and CC lines. Some people do that > extra work. Some of us don't bother and just let it go whereever the > list-owner set it up to go. If you just hit "reply", it only would go > to you, not to baypiggies. I rarely bother to edit the CC line, and please don't do it because you worry about my getting two copies of the message -- gmail recognizes that they are two copies of the same thing (since they have the same message-id header) and only shows me one. I sometimes *do* bother to edit the CC line, but that's when I actually care to show (in that subtle way) whom I am responding to. E.g. if I had chosen to cut the quote from Steve Hindle from this message I could have cut him from the CC line too. I still claim that if minimizing effort is concerned, reply and reply-all are equal in required effort. That is unless the list is configured with the dreaded reply-to header: then replying to the sender only is a painful cut-and-paste operation (for me, and for users of many other mail readers). And please don't tell me that I should never reply to the sender only. That's really between me and the sender. -- --Guido van Rossum (home page: http://www.python.org/~guido/) From guido at python.org Mon Jun 19 22:04:32 2006 From: guido at python.org (Guido van Rossum) Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2006 13:04:32 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] list mail and gmail ? In-Reply-To: References: <9a0545880606191013t509fdd11w2b7b0e34b439141e@mail.gmail.com> <9a0545880606191034m183b45b8yfcc5cb4526e2f4ac@mail.gmail.com> <20060619182925.GA5757@panix.com> Message-ID: On 6/19/06, Rick Kwan wrote: > I believe that 'anyone' = 'me' in this case. :-) For that list, I > originally had Mailman configured so that replies go to the list. > However, there were several user who were surprised to see replies > they had intended for the an original sender end up on the whole list. > These users are not computer scientists or web developers, but rather > engineers (plus a few teachers , biologists, and physical scientists) > working on non-computer end products. I don't know what types of mail > clients they were using, how the options were presented to them, or > how much they participate in other lists; but I'm starting to suspect > that these all were factors. No. It's because the reply-to header, by (flawed) design tells the mail reading application to treat "reply" as "reply-all". This confuses most users (including myself) who have a "reply" and a "reply-all" button next to each other and know how to use them. -- --Guido van Rossum (home page: http://www.python.org/~guido/) From webmaven at cox.net Mon Jun 19 22:26:13 2006 From: webmaven at cox.net (Michael Bernstein) Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2006 13:26:13 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] list mail and gmail ? In-Reply-To: <9a0545880606191211hb6847eeo8f1fe57cca47cb52@mail.gmail.com> References: <9a0545880606191013t509fdd11w2b7b0e34b439141e@mail.gmail.com> <9a0545880606191034m183b45b8yfcc5cb4526e2f4ac@mail.gmail.com> <20060619182925.GA5757@panix.com> <9a0545880606191211hb6847eeo8f1fe57cca47cb52@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1150748774.4323.94.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Mon, 2006-06-19 at 12:11 -0700, steve hindle wrote: > On 6/19/06, Anna Ravenscroft wrote: > > > > I wish it worked. ;-) If I'm in the habit of hitting "reply to all" to > > reply to this list, then I'm probably going to hit that when replying, > > even when I'm replying to the individual. Oops. We've seen it happen > > on this list before. I've done it too and felt really silly > > afterwards. Ah well. Can't make anything idiot-proof - idiots are far > > too ingenious! (and we all have "idiot" moments.) > > I agree - neither system is perfect. I just wish the (IMHO) 'common > case' of wanting to sent group communications back to the group didn't > require extra work. The main justification I've seen for this is > "some geek wrote a paper about how he embarassed himself one time.." It does not require extra work if your email client supports reply-to-list. For example, in Evolution this is done by hitting Ctrl+L. Enabling this functionality is what the List-Post: header (which Mailman includes) is for. If your preferred email client does not yet have a reply-to-list function, ask for one. Here is the appropriate bug for Thunderbird that you can vote for: https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=233417 And voting for the Mozilla variant bug of this may do some good: https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=45715 Finally, this appears to be the correct venue for GMail feature requests: https://services.google.com/inquiry/gmail_suggest/ Cheers, - Michael From mech422 at gmail.com Mon Jun 19 22:52:16 2006 From: mech422 at gmail.com (steve hindle) Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2006 13:52:16 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] list mail and gmail ? In-Reply-To: References: <9a0545880606191013t509fdd11w2b7b0e34b439141e@mail.gmail.com> <9a0545880606191034m183b45b8yfcc5cb4526e2f4ac@mail.gmail.com> <20060619182925.GA5757@panix.com> <9a0545880606191211hb6847eeo8f1fe57cca47cb52@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <9a0545880606191352r55f62429gf922d2003783e4e9@mail.gmail.com> On 6/19/06, Guido van Rossum wrote: > should never reply to the sender only. That's really between me and > the sender. > Actually, that raises a point related to my spammer-harvesting-email-addy's comment... specifically, whose to say that someone *WANTS* a private reply to a public message, or more to the point, wants their address given out to all list members? While Guido is a mature adult, most of the private-replies-to-list-mails I've seen (to me or others) tends to be the sort of flames people won't send publicly. If I really want someone to have my email address - I'm quite capable of giving it to them. It seems to me the choice should be mine, not a fait accompli of the mailing list configuration. And as I mentioned before, having members emails show up in the actual list traffic just makes it that much easier for spammers to harvest them. They can simply subscribe an address that forwards to a bot/script. From mech422 at gmail.com Mon Jun 19 22:57:16 2006 From: mech422 at gmail.com (steve hindle) Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2006 13:57:16 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] list mail and gmail ? In-Reply-To: <1150748774.4323.94.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <9a0545880606191013t509fdd11w2b7b0e34b439141e@mail.gmail.com> <9a0545880606191034m183b45b8yfcc5cb4526e2f4ac@mail.gmail.com> <20060619182925.GA5757@panix.com> <9a0545880606191211hb6847eeo8f1fe57cca47cb52@mail.gmail.com> <1150748774.4323.94.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <9a0545880606191357t350c4376pa81a9bad46bfadca@mail.gmail.com> On 6/19/06, Michael Bernstein wrote: > > If your preferred email client does not yet have a reply-to-list > function, ask for one. Here is the appropriate bug for Thunderbird that > you can vote for: Thanks! I really appreciate the gmail link. I went and added reply-to-list as a feature request. I didn't realize thunderbird still didn't support it... thats been an open item for a while now :-( Steve From webmaven at cox.net Mon Jun 19 23:00:17 2006 From: webmaven at cox.net (Michael Bernstein) Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2006 14:00:17 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] list mail and gmail ? In-Reply-To: <9a0545880606191352r55f62429gf922d2003783e4e9@mail.gmail.com> References: <9a0545880606191013t509fdd11w2b7b0e34b439141e@mail.gmail.com> <9a0545880606191034m183b45b8yfcc5cb4526e2f4ac@mail.gmail.com> <20060619182925.GA5757@panix.com> <9a0545880606191211hb6847eeo8f1fe57cca47cb52@mail.gmail.com> <9a0545880606191352r55f62429gf922d2003783e4e9@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1150750817.4323.99.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Mon, 2006-06-19 at 13:52 -0700, steve hindle wrote: > > And as I mentioned before, having members emails show up in the actual > list traffic just makes it that much easier for spammers to harvest > them. They can simply subscribe an address that forwards to a > bot/script. This is a bit of a strawman. Even on lists that are configured to munge the 'Reply-To:' header in an attempt to force replies back to the list, the original sender still appears in the 'From:' header. I have not yet encountered a list that hides the address of the sender, except in a web-interface. - Michael R. Bernstein michaelbernstein.com From mech422 at gmail.com Mon Jun 19 23:06:35 2006 From: mech422 at gmail.com (steve hindle) Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2006 14:06:35 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] list mail and gmail ? In-Reply-To: <1150750817.4323.99.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <9a0545880606191013t509fdd11w2b7b0e34b439141e@mail.gmail.com> <20060619182925.GA5757@panix.com> <9a0545880606191211hb6847eeo8f1fe57cca47cb52@mail.gmail.com> <9a0545880606191352r55f62429gf922d2003783e4e9@mail.gmail.com> <1150750817.4323.99.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <9a0545880606191406n12bb4fd5h83a0bef3476bdbca@mail.gmail.com> On 6/19/06, Michael Bernstein wrote: > On Mon, 2006-06-19 at 13:52 -0700, steve hindle wrote: > This is a bit of a strawman. Even on lists that are configured to munge > the 'Reply-To:' header in an attempt to force replies back to the list, > the original sender still appears in the 'From:' header. > Hmm - it's quite possible I'm mistaken, since this is the only mailing list I've subscribed to since changing my email address. I seem to recall lists (svlug?) where the 'from' was something like 'svlug-list' or whatever. Again, its been a while since I took my mail server down, so I could (quite easily) be mis-taken... Steve From mech422 at gmail.com Mon Jun 19 23:15:10 2006 From: mech422 at gmail.com (steve hindle) Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2006 14:15:10 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] list mail and gmail ? In-Reply-To: References: <9a0545880606191013t509fdd11w2b7b0e34b439141e@mail.gmail.com> <9a0545880606191034m183b45b8yfcc5cb4526e2f4ac@mail.gmail.com> <20060619182925.GA5757@panix.com> <9a0545880606191211hb6847eeo8f1fe57cca47cb52@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <9a0545880606191415y4b1a39bcocb0a54d44dcb5c3a@mail.gmail.com> On 6/19/06, Guido van Rossum wrote: > I rarely bother to edit the CC line, and please don't do it because > you worry about my getting two copies of the message -- gmail > recognizes that they are two copies of the same thing (since they have > the same message-id header) and only shows me one. > Interesting point... I wonder how many other mail clients have that particular 'smarts' built-in? Though two copies of the email still get sent - so it doesn't help with bandwidth/server load etc. I guess these days, thats not as much of a problem though - fat pipes and fast machines are a lot more common then just a few years ago. Oh well - guess it all just boils down to preference... From bob at redivi.com Tue Jun 20 02:07:30 2006 From: bob at redivi.com (Bob Ippolito) Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2006 17:07:30 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] list mail and gmail ? In-Reply-To: <9a0545880606191415y4b1a39bcocb0a54d44dcb5c3a@mail.gmail.com> References: <9a0545880606191013t509fdd11w2b7b0e34b439141e@mail.gmail.com> <9a0545880606191034m183b45b8yfcc5cb4526e2f4ac@mail.gmail.com> <20060619182925.GA5757@panix.com> <9a0545880606191211hb6847eeo8f1fe57cca47cb52@mail.gmail.com> <9a0545880606191415y4b1a39bcocb0a54d44dcb5c3a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Jun 19, 2006, at 2:15 PM, steve hindle wrote: > On 6/19/06, Guido van Rossum wrote: >> I rarely bother to edit the CC line, and please don't do it because >> you worry about my getting two copies of the message -- gmail >> recognizes that they are two copies of the same thing (since they >> have >> the same message-id header) and only shows me one. >> > > Interesting point... I wonder how many other mail clients have that > particular 'smarts' built-in? > Though two copies of the email still get sent - so it doesn't help > with bandwidth/server load etc. I guess these days, thats not as much > of a problem though - fat pipes and fast machines are a lot more > common then just a few years ago. Many aren't that smart, but often times it's not such a big deal to get two copies of messages for threads that you're involved in (if you filter messages, anyway). My client sorts mail into different imap boxes based on list-id header, so for threads that I've participated in I get one copy in my list mailbox which I don't check very often and another copy in your inbox which I check much more regularly. Additionally, mailing lists can be quite slow or even down (sourceforge is an extreme case of this). The reply-to-sender behavior lets you go ahead and continue the thread at a normal pace until things are back to normal with the list. -bob From marilyn at deliberate.com Thu Jun 22 21:02:40 2006 From: marilyn at deliberate.com (Marilyn Davis) Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2006 12:02:40 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Baypiggies] IDE people list Message-ID: Hi, I want to check that my email list of people who have volunteered to give demos of IDE's is correct. I have: marilyn at deliberate.com, zovirl1 at sbcglobal.net, jjinux at gmail.com, tony at tcapp.com, mac at wireless.com, keith at kdart.com, Did anyone else volunteer? We are trying to get our web blurbs done today! Marilyn From rdm at cfcl.com Sun Jun 25 17:36:01 2006 From: rdm at cfcl.com (Rich Morin) Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2006 08:36:01 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] BASS reminder Message-ID: The Beer & Scripting SIG (http://www.cfcl.com/rdm/bass) will convene on Wed., 6/28. Be there or be elsewhere! -r P.S. I maintain a list of scripting-related groups: SF Bay Area Scripting Groups http://www.cfcl.com/rdm/bass/groups.php Pointers to any missing groups would be welcomed! -- http://www.cfcl.com/rdm Rich Morin http://www.cfcl.com/rdm/resume rdm at cfcl.com http://www.cfcl.com/rdm/weblog +1 650-873-7841 Technical editing and writing, programming, and web development From hsuclarklarry at sbcglobal.net Sun Jun 25 20:04:28 2006 From: hsuclarklarry at sbcglobal.net (Laurence Clark) Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2006 11:04:28 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] pywebsvcs-zsi recommendations? In-Reply-To: <4496BD40.9000603@lbl.gov> References: <4496BAB0.3060900@lbl.gov> <4496BD40.9000603@lbl.gov> Message-ID: <449ED02C.1040204@sbcglobal.net> Has anyone actually used pywebsvcs/ZSI? My inital experience with the download for version 1.7 is that its buggy. The version 1.7 rpm only extracts if you have a hard coded user named fdrake. Then it has nothing in it but a single tar.gz anyway. MAYBE this is just another just a case where all the cool kids know to build from source. ANYONE ACTUALLY USED ZSI SUCCESFULLY? Is it worth spending more time on it? David E. Konerding wrote: >David E. Konerding wrote: > > >>Wendy Xiao wrote: >> >> >> >>>Hi, >>> >>>I would like to use Python to access web services, >>>which requires WS-Security (wsse:Security, UsernameToken ) header, >>>does anyone have such examples using SOAPpy or any other library? >>> >>>Thanks in advance! >>>Wendy >>> >>> >>> >>Wendy, >> >>The latest versions of ZSI and pyGridWare >> >>http://pywebsvcs.sourceforge.net/ >>http://dsd.lbl.gov/gtg/projects/pyGridWare/ >> >>have support for WS-Security. I'm not 100% certain that UsernameToken >>is supported, but there does look like there >>is code in ZSI for it. >> >> >> > >PS: there are a few WS-Security example in the zsi/tests directory. > >Dave >_______________________________________________ >Baypiggies mailing list >Baypiggies at python.org >http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mail.python.org/pipermail/baypiggies/attachments/20060625/ae70451d/attachment.html From mech422 at gmail.com Mon Jun 26 05:24:02 2006 From: mech422 at gmail.com (steve hindle) Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2006 20:24:02 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] BASS reminder In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9a0545880606252024o2283becaxf440e45d088bd11b@mail.gmail.com> Hey Rich... I _love_ these sorts of informal get togethers and would be happy to see more of them .... Anybody interested in doing impromptu south bay get togethers feel free to give me a shout. By the same token, anyone interested in getting random/last minute "we're gonna go geek out - wanna come" type emails/calls - please feel free to email me off list. People generally only manage to make it to about 1 in every 10 get-togethers, but that '1' can be a real pick-me-up after a rough day :-) Steve From dekonerding at lbl.gov Mon Jun 26 18:15:27 2006 From: dekonerding at lbl.gov (David E. Konerding) Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 09:15:27 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] pywebsvcs-zsi recommendations? In-Reply-To: <449ED02C.1040204@sbcglobal.net> References: <4496BAB0.3060900@lbl.gov> <4496BD40.9000603@lbl.gov> <449ED02C.1040204@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <44A0081F.5020103@lbl.gov> Laurence Clark wrote: > Has anyone actually used pywebsvcs/ZSI? My inital experience with the > download for version 1.7 is that its buggy. The version 1.7 rpm only > extracts if you have a hard coded user named fdrake. Then it has > nothing in it but a single tar.gz anyway. MAYBE this is just another > just a case where all the cool kids know to build from source. > Hi laurence, I use ZSI all the time. I wasn't aware of the problems with the RPM, but using an RPM for distribution of a Python source package isn't a good idea anyway. ZSI is now indexed on PyPI, and there is a 2.0 prerelease that comes in .egg form: http://sourceforge.net/project/showfiles.php?group_id=26590&package_id=30660 so you shouldn't have to build from source. From what I understand, using PyPI should pull in all the dependencies automatically for you. That said, building ZSI from source isn't really that hard; there are 3 or 4 dependencies, all of which install using "python setup.py install". I strongly suggest that if you are having problems with ZSI that you join the mailing list and submit bug reports to the developers: http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/forum.php?forum_id=1729 Dave From mike at cignex.com Tue Jun 27 21:38:01 2006 From: mike at cignex.com (Mike Walker) Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 15:38:01 -0400 Subject: [Baypiggies] Job Posting for Python/ Plone Developer Message-ID: <0F6F46A348230D4599CDADCB9BF55EEB0BD598@BE01.exg3.exghost.com> Your career path is a series of decisions... and success means different things to different people. At CIGNEX, we let you make the decisions that are right for you, which enable you to experience both work and life to the fullest. Our compensation, benefits, policies, and programs are designed to assist you in making that happen. CIGNEX is committed to attracting and retaining the best talent. CIGNEX offers an excellent employment package with competitive pay, premier benefits, and forward-looking policies and programs. CIGNEX offers a satisfying work environment, a friendly corporate culture, and some of the brightest coworkers. Our people are our competitive edge. This package is our investment in our people. A successful career requires capability, opportunity and desire. * Capability ... CIGNEX will help you develop it * Opportunity ... CIGNEX provides many * Desire ... that's up to you! CIGNEX has immediate requirement for developers with solid programming skills. As a consultant with Cignex, you will be responsible for working with our clients; helping them design and build Enterprise Content Management applications using Open Source Packages, tools and utilities. Requirements: * At least 4 years of software development experience. * Python development experience preferred. * Exposure to Enterprise Content Management Packaged preferred - Preferably Zope/Plone * Exposure to open source development preferred. * Previous consulting background highly desirable. * Bachelor's degree in Computer Science and permission to work in U.S. Mike W. Walker CIGNEX Technologies Inc. URL: www.cignex.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mail.python.org/pipermail/baypiggies/attachments/20060627/562adf8d/attachment.htm From cappy2112 at gmail.com Wed Jun 28 01:32:38 2006 From: cappy2112 at gmail.com (Tony Cappellini) Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 16:32:38 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] Book review- volunteer needed Message-ID: <8249c4ac0606271632v74822b79gc91f0b529b7076b4@mail.gmail.com> Hello Everyone I have a copy of The Art of Project Managementwhich needs to be reviewed. The previous reviewer was not able to finish the book due to a busy work schedule. Please reply off list. Thanks Tony -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mail.python.org/pipermail/baypiggies/attachments/20060627/b43bb94b/attachment.html From mech422 at gmail.com Wed Jun 28 08:50:52 2006 From: mech422 at gmail.com (steve hindle) Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 23:50:52 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] PloneLounge (Was last minute get-togethers) Message-ID: <9a0545880606272350i17df8f7dq68a3f00e5f77538@mail.gmail.com> Hi all, There's a get-together in S.F. Thursday nite, brain child of Joel Burton. It will be a social occasion, starting around 6-6:30. Full details here http://plonelounge.org/events/plonebootcamps-plonelounge-social Donna and I are going to go, instead of doing a local get-together this week... Any and all are welcome... Steve From richmarlin at gmail.com Thu Jun 29 17:49:41 2006 From: richmarlin at gmail.com (Richard Marlin) Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2006 08:49:41 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] New User Seeking Developers Message-ID: <7101c3800606290849p201e2e24g98e24ceacd36dd4d@mail.gmail.com> Hello All, I am new to this site and I am looking for developers that can help me to set up an online store using bittorrent technology. I want to build a site that allows users to buy movies using bittorrent and DRM in order to sell at a better price. If anyone has any good suggestions on who or where I might best be able to located qualified candidates please let me know. Thank you, Rich Marlin From ari at lib.aero Fri Jun 30 06:30:36 2006 From: ari at lib.aero (Ari Krupnik) Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2006 21:30:36 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] New User Seeking Developers In-Reply-To: <7101c3800606290849p201e2e24g98e24ceacd36dd4d@mail.gmail.com> (Richard Marlin's message of "Thu, 29 Jun 2006 08:49:41 -0700") References: <7101c3800606290849p201e2e24g98e24ceacd36dd4d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <8664ijgt8z.fsf@deb.lib.aero> "Richard Marlin" writes: > I want to build > a site that allows users to buy movies using bittorrent and DRM in > order to sell at a better price. Sounds like you have the same problem as Bram :=) Ari. -- Elections only count as free and trials as fair if you can lose money betting on the outcome. From proclus at gnu-darwin.org Fri Jun 30 14:41:43 2006 From: proclus at gnu-darwin.org (proclus at gnu-darwin.org) Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2006 08:41:43 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [Baypiggies] FOSS, Science, and Public activism Message-ID: <20060630124143.2DDB06B0F82@gnu-darwin.org> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 (Sorry if you get more than one copy of this message, but I felt that it was urgent to get this important info out.) The values of freedom and openness are crucial to understanding itself, so that civilization and public welfare now depend on them, as I argue below. These values may find their best expression in the free and open source software (FOSS) movement, and the foresightful example of FOSS developers should now be beneficially applied to many other disciplines in the context of a global and public Internet. It is crucial that we occasionally take time to discuss the reasons _why_ we release our source code, and this is one of those occasions. There are good reasons for the freedom and openness which are characteristics of FOSS development, reasons which should receive wider attention now that they can be readily communicated to other arenas. The consequences of doing otherwise are often catastrophic. For example, it incomprehensible that Genentech could consider withdrawing a cheap cure for blindness (ARMD) from the market. http://lists.essential.org/pipermail/random-bits/2006-june/001374.html The mechanism of this drug is public knowledge. http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/forum.php?thread_id=14183567&forum_id=6042 This abhorrent situation is a great example of the kind of thing that will happen if people don't get behind the values of freedom and openness that we are espousing. Please let Genentech know that you find what they are doing offensive. Publicize the mechanism so that new compounds can be obtained as replacements. For the future, continued vociferous public activism is required to prevent such outrages from occurring in the future. It becomes clear that the compounds which come from common roots, fruits, and vegetables are a shared human heritage and the free and open source of the future. Tannins are another interesting case in point, because as molecules, and as anti-oxidents, they are similar to resveratrol (resV), and that molecular mechanism has been anchored to the public domain via a prior art declaration. It is a so-called CR-memetic, which may increase healthy human longevity by many decades. Here are some links about it. Resveratrol mechanism posts from GNU-Darwin list http://proclus.gnu-darwin.org/gdposts.html CR protocol for human bodies http://proclus.gnu-darwin.org/bootstrap.html Here is some important recent news about it. http://www.imminst.org/forum/index.php?s=&act=print&client=printer&f=237&t=10749 It is exciting to suppose that people can get off the pharmaceuticals that they are taking with calorie restriction or CR-memetics. I personally am trying to get off the cholesterol drug Pravachol, a statin compound, starting a few of weeks ago. Write me, and I'll let you know how it turns out. From the article... "Fontana says ... evidence of "younger" hearts in people on calorie restriction, suggest that humans on CR have the same adaptive responses as did animals whose rates of aging were slowed by CR." I think that it is time to look at the tannins in tobacco leaves. There may be other treasures lurking there too. As you may be aware there is ample public research into any possible beneficial compounds that may be obtained from tobacco leaves. The mechanisms are there waiting to be discovered. If you want to post them, just reply to me and I'd be delighted to host them. The public establishment of prior art is a time-honed method of entering inventions into the public domain. We now have other methods at our disposal as well. If you are planning to establish prior art against future CR-memetic related patents, you might want to have a look at www.creativecommons.org. Perhaps it goes without saying at this point that you should please choose a license that provides for free and broad public access to your memetic. In that way you will assure that the public health is served by anchoring them to the public common, where they cannot be exploited by those who would withhold them for their own profit. The DRM situation is precisely analogous to this. Can you imagine doing science in a world where your ability to read and write your data is filtered through secret protocols that are hidden from you? I recommend the Defective By Design campaign to fight the outrage of DRM, which is incompatible with the scientific pursuit. http://www.defectivebydesign.org/ It is clear that scientific tools must be demonstrably and penetratingly understood, or else our claims will likely be skewed and called into question. Free and open source software is a great example of how to make your science verifiable to the public. Establishing prior art against future patents is another good one, which is precisely analogous in method, making the result explicit to the public, free and open to all. Thank goodness for the free and open software movement, which gave us such a great example of how to serve the public in this manner. I am willing to grant that there are particular exceptions to these rules of freedom and openness, and such exceptions may be relatively harmless; however, let us posit the opposite, that freedom and openness are _not_ crucial to understanding. Think of the implications. When people are compelled to learn, they do not receive the intended message. It is not understood correctly or completely. When crucial facts are withheld from the people you are trying to teach they become paranoid, possibly unteachable. Freedom and openness are obviously the best approach to understanding. This is not a metaphor for the pursuit of science, but a fact. We are learning from nature, and it is ultimately required that our tools be demonstrably and penetratingly understood, or else we will receive incorrect lessons from nature. Clearly this requires public access to the source code and more. This is why many of us are pressing for public access to scientific publications. Moreover FOSS tools are becoming ever more important to the pursuit of the scientific endeavor itself. In our biophysics department we are obsolescing proprietary hardware and software in favor of open standards and free software, which is a widespread phenomenon in the science sector, and sure to continue. We build most of the workstations ourselves with commodity hardware, but we also have some clusters running Debian and FedoraCore. Some of you will know that I am the lead developer for the GNU-Darwin distribution. GNU-Darwin has a FOSS operating system, which is getting alot of press these days. Here is an example How Apple and Microsoft are advancing desktop Linux http://www.desktopLinux.com/news/ns7294331817.html I see the article as counter-productive against building a FOSS coalition that includes democracy, freedom, and public access activists, Apple, GNU-Darwin, GNU, and GNU/Linux all linked together in spectrum. It is important to alert the whole FOSS community that Darwin cannot be classified as a free or open source operation system as of the Darwin-8 revision, because AppleACPIplatform-39 which is required to boot the system is proprietary. It is notable that only the current version of Darwin from Apple is a non-free OS. GNU-Darwin has a free version, an earlier revision that includes the source code. It is FOSS, and we call upon Apple to maintain Darwin as such, as it has been in the past. We hope that the current situation with the kernel and ACPI driver will soon be remedied so that Darwin will continue as a FOSS OS. We are asking for free software developers to please write to the *nix core of Darwin, which is the core OS for both Mac OS X and GNU-Darwin OS. Darwin OS, which underlies both systems, comprises parts from GNU, the BSD's, mach, plus Apple's substantial contributions to the free software community. Be consistent with your philosophy and avoid linkage to proprietary binaries, such as OpenGL and CoreAudio, except when it is imperatively required in order to lead users to the values of software freedom. Under that principle, another reason to maintain compatibility with the *nix core, is so that your code will be readily portable to new platforms and usable by free-software-only aficionados too. GNU-Darwin OS is not an obsolete implementation of Darwin OS, or to be superseded by Mac OS X. We are trying to lead users to freedom, not away from it. By maintaining Darwin core compatibility your code will remain valuable as the marketplace and industry continues to evolve (trust me here), particularly as DRM-related problems continue to come forward. Of course, that means releasing your source code under a FOSS license, such as APSL. Darwin OS is a free and open source operating system that is not going away, so try to focus your coding towards supporting that standard instead of proprietary software. Here is the essence of the current problem with Darwin OS. Apple replaced working boot code with the following proprietary drivers, which are required for the system to boot. Darwin-7: AppleAPIC.kext/ Applei386genericplatform.kext/ Darwin-8: AppleACPIplatform In addition the kernel (xnu) has been taken proprietary in the recent revisions. We are not asking for Apple to give away such things, but rather to continue maintaining Darwin OS as FOSS, which it already was. After repeated attempts by many FOSS developers to get this situation remedied, nothing has happened. It is now time for us to better use the measures at our disposal in order to assure that Darwin OS remains free and open. If you are unhappy that xnu and the boot drivers have not been released, I would encourage you to spread your dissatisfaction to other forums, so that Apple will take notice and commit to a workable free and open Darwin OS from now on. Moving on to coalition strategy now, some of you may not know that GNU/Linux system administration is one of my day jobs. I manage a wide range of systems. Here is a screen-shot of my work desktop, so that you can see I use the same tools at work that I use at home at night on GNU-Darwin. (weekends too, so please read I am your friend) http://proclus.gnu-darwin.org/debian.html The only time that I ever use proprietary software is when I am trying to help other users learn free and open source free software. I'm a long time Apple and GNU/Linux user, and here is the old proof doc ;-}. http://proclus.tripod.com/indulge.html Now, it is embarrassing but, I want you to have a look at my cv. http://biophysics.med.jhmi.edu/love/thesis/cv6.html In all my years I have never used Microsoft Windows. There are only two exceptions to this statement, where I was helping Windows users to access our servers at Hopkins. Clearly, you can get a few things done without it ;-}. One of the primary reasons for founding GNU-Darwin was to help people to put Microsoft behind them, and it is definitely possible to do it now. You have many resources at your disposal to help you leave Microsoft behind. Look at the link below to see what you can do with free software. Apple, GNU-Darwin, GNU.org, and GNU/Linux will all help, and we are largely all helping together, because we have a shared foundation of free software. http://www.gnu-darwin.org/gdc/ Microsoft is only one example. That is why we are so insistent that Apple keep true to free and open source software principles. We should ultimately try to leave all proprietary software behind us, so that we can participate fully in the freedom and openness of the internet culture and public domain. What more do we need, when we have such a rich store of information and so many capable people at our sides? Finally, as a scientist, it is obvious to me that this situation is relevant current and ongoing discussion in the scientific community, and as such, it is also clear that many members of the various lists would be interested in the current state of Darwin with respect to FOSS and with respect to science. Here is the crucial point. The principles of FOSS and scientific inquiry converge. In practical terms, how else can you know is what happening in your experiments? Free and open source software, open standards, best promote the scientific endeavor by mirroring its method, but also they assure that the work is accessible to the public. Freedom and openness are crucial to understanding, and foundational to the scientific endeavor, and they should not be compromised. There are a few examples of exceptions, but clearly, this matter will find further debate in the appropriate forums. We should not quell debate because a few people are offended or complaining. - From a scientific perspective that would be incorrect. On that last point, I would suggest that Apple get on the right side of the debate, and they will make tremendous headway. Now is the time. Some people will find this message annoying and divisive, and the delete button is ready at hand for them, but other people will find it interesting and engaging. All as you like. Let us not quell discussion because a few people are annoyed. Some will call this a troll, but I hope that folks will see through such name-calling. Trolls are mythological creatures, so don't believe in them. Everyone has a right to have their opinion heard, even if those opinions are divisive or unpopular. It is clear that the idea of trolls is being used to attack freedom of expression. In fact, freedom of expression demands that we listen to the so-called-trolls sometimes, and if you are civil, it helps, so don't resort to name-calling. On cross-posting; when there are matters of urgent importance that affect a broad range of subscriber lists, courtesy must sometimes take a back seat, and cross-posting is an example of that. Cross-posting is to be encouraged when the subject of the post is on topic. Each of the various lists will respond in the way that seems appropriate to the people in that forum, and the threads on the various lists will diverge accordingly. As the threads diverge, the cross-posting addresses should be removed as needed. Relevance to all people is an unattainable goal, but messages of the broadest applicability should have the broadest reach, and discussion should not be stymied because some find it irrelevant. I have given this method due consideration; it is not trolling, not spam, not off-topic, and cross-posting is an example of something that is sometimes required according to the felt importance and relevance of a given subject matter. In summary, Freedom and openness are now the bedrock of our civilization and public welfare depends on these values, so that we should actively engage ourselves in preserving and making them happen. In keeping with these principles it is crucial to note that there are exceptions to etiquette, otherwise free expression will be overly channeled, damped, and ultimately suppressed in our forums. This notion of courtesy will certainly receive additional consideration, but meanwhile, let us together get to work on the activism now. Duly, I am amenable to valid criticism and able to respond, but please reply with kindness. Obviously, feel free to write back, copy, or send these comments along to anyone else as you see fit. Regards, Michael L. Love Ph.D Department of Biophysics and Biophysical Chemistry School of Medicine Johns Hopkins University 725 N. Wolfe Street Room 608B WBSB Baltimore MD 21205-2185 Interoffice Mail: 608B WBSB, SoM office: 410-614-2267 lab: 410-614-3179 fax: 410-502-6910 cell: 443-824-3451 http://www.gnu-darwin.org/ -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.1 (Darwin) iD8DBQFEpIl6u0oI3iz5oZcRAtpQAJ9X7D6kq1vmWKXkG/3LBvx3gGrK1QCZAbgI 8Ww6QABLiZtmFmS9Ekea5nI= =a0Oy -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From proclus at gnu-darwin.org Fri Jun 30 14:54:45 2006 From: proclus at gnu-darwin.org (proclus at gnu-darwin.org) Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2006 08:54:45 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [Baypiggies] FOSS, Science, and Public activism Message-ID: <20060630125445.167EB6B0F80@gnu-darwin.org> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 (Sorry if you get more than one copy of this message, but I felt that it was urgent to get this important info out.) The values of freedom and openness are crucial to understanding itself, so that civilization and public welfare now depend on them, as I argue below. These values may find their best expression in the free and open source software (FOSS) movement, and the foresightful example of FOSS developers should now be beneficially applied to many other disciplines in the context of a global and public Internet. It is crucial that we occasionally take time to discuss the reasons _why_ we release our source code, and this is one of those occasions. There are good reasons for the freedom and openness which are characteristics of FOSS development, reasons which should receive wider attention now that they can be readily communicated to other arenas. The consequences of doing otherwise are often catastrophic. For example, it incomprehensible that Genentech could consider withdrawing a cheap cure for blindness (ARMD) from the market. http://lists.essential.org/pipermail/random-bits/2006-june/001374.html The mechanism of this drug is public knowledge. http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/forum.php?thread_id=14183567&forum_id=6042 This abhorrent situation is a great example of the kind of thing that will happen if people don't get behind the values of freedom and openness that we are espousing. Please let Genentech know that you find what they are doing offensive. Publicize the mechanism so that new compounds can be obtained as replacements. For the future, continued vociferous public activism is required to prevent such outrages from occurring in the future. It becomes clear that the compounds which come from common roots, fruits, and vegetables are a shared human heritage and the free and open source of the future. Tannins are another interesting case in point, because as molecules, and as anti-oxidents, they are similar to resveratrol (resV), and that molecular mechanism has been anchored to the public domain via a prior art declaration. It is a so-called CR-memetic, which may increase healthy human longevity by many decades. Here are some links about it. Resveratrol mechanism posts from GNU-Darwin list http://proclus.gnu-darwin.org/gdposts.html CR protocol for human bodies http://proclus.gnu-darwin.org/bootstrap.html Here is some important recent news about it. http://www.imminst.org/forum/index.php?s=&act=print&client=printer&f=237&t=10749 It is exciting to suppose that people can get off the pharmaceuticals that they are taking with calorie restriction or CR-memetics. I personally am trying to get off the cholesterol drug Pravachol, a statin compound, starting a few of weeks ago. Write me, and I'll let you know how it turns out. From the article... "Fontana says ... evidence of "younger" hearts in people on calorie restriction, suggest that humans on CR have the same adaptive responses as did animals whose rates of aging were slowed by CR." I think that it is time to look at the tannins in tobacco leaves. There may be other treasures lurking there too. As you may be aware there is ample public research into any possible beneficial compounds that may be obtained from tobacco leaves. The mechanisms are there waiting to be discovered. If you want to post them, just reply to me and I'd be delighted to host them. The public establishment of prior art is a time-honed method of entering inventions into the public domain. We now have other methods at our disposal as well. If you are planning to establish prior art against future CR-memetic related patents, you might want to have a look at www.creativecommons.org. Perhaps it goes without saying at this point that you should please choose a license that provides for free and broad public access to your memetic. In that way you will assure that the public health is served by anchoring them to the public common, where they cannot be exploited by those who would withhold them for their own profit. The DRM situation is precisely analogous to this. Can you imagine doing science in a world where your ability to read and write your data is filtered through secret protocols that are hidden from you? I recommend the Defective By Design campaign to fight the outrage of DRM, which is incompatible with the scientific pursuit. http://www.defectivebydesign.org/ It is clear that scientific tools must be demonstrably and penetratingly understood, or else our claims will likely be skewed and called into question. Free and open source software is a great example of how to make your science verifiable to the public. Establishing prior art against future patents is another good one, which is precisely analogous in method, making the result explicit to the public, free and open to all. Thank goodness for the free and open software movement, which gave us such a great example of how to serve the public in this manner. I am willing to grant that there are particular exceptions to these rules of freedom and openness, and such exceptions may be relatively harmless; however, let us posit the opposite, that freedom and openness are _not_ crucial to understanding. Think of the implications. When people are compelled to learn, they do not receive the intended message. It is not understood correctly or completely. When crucial facts are withheld from the people you are trying to teach they become paranoid, possibly unteachable. Freedom and openness are obviously the best approach to understanding. This is not a metaphor for the pursuit of science, but a fact. We are learning from nature, and it is ultimately required that our tools be demonstrably and penetratingly understood, or else we will receive incorrect lessons from nature. Clearly this requires public access to the source code and more. This is why many of us are pressing for public access to scientific publications. Moreover FOSS tools are becoming ever more important to the pursuit of the scientific endeavor itself. In our biophysics department we are obsolescing proprietary hardware and software in favor of open standards and free software, which is a widespread phenomenon in the science sector, and sure to continue. We build most of the workstations ourselves with commodity hardware, but we also have some clusters running Debian and FedoraCore. Some of you will know that I am the lead developer for the GNU-Darwin distribution. GNU-Darwin has a FOSS operating system, which is getting alot of press these days. Here is an example How Apple and Microsoft are advancing desktop Linux http://www.desktopLinux.com/news/ns7294331817.html I see the article as counter-productive against building a FOSS coalition that includes democracy, freedom, and public access activists, Apple, GNU-Darwin, GNU, and GNU/Linux all linked together in spectrum. It is important to alert the whole FOSS community that Darwin cannot be classified as a free or open source operation system as of the Darwin-8 revision, because AppleACPIplatform-39 which is required to boot the system is proprietary. It is notable that only the current version of Darwin from Apple is a non-free OS. GNU-Darwin has a free version, an earlier revision that includes the source code. It is FOSS, and we call upon Apple to maintain Darwin as such, as it has been in the past. We hope that the current situation with the kernel and ACPI driver will soon be remedied so that Darwin will continue as a FOSS OS. We are asking for free software developers to please write to the *nix core of Darwin, which is the core OS for both Mac OS X and GNU-Darwin OS. Darwin OS, which underlies both systems, comprises parts from GNU, the BSD's, mach, plus Apple's substantial contributions to the free software community. Be consistent with your philosophy and avoid linkage to proprietary binaries, such as OpenGL and CoreAudio, except when it is imperatively required in order to lead users to the values of software freedom. Under that principle, another reason to maintain compatibility with the *nix core, is so that your code will be readily portable to new platforms and usable by free-software-only aficionados too. GNU-Darwin OS is not an obsolete implementation of Darwin OS, or to be superseded by Mac OS X. We are trying to lead users to freedom, not away from it. By maintaining Darwin core compatibility your code will remain valuable as the marketplace and industry continues to evolve (trust me here), particularly as DRM-related problems continue to come forward. Of course, that means releasing your source code under a FOSS license, such as APSL. Darwin OS is a free and open source operating system that is not going away, so try to focus your coding towards supporting that standard instead of proprietary software. Here is the essence of the current problem with Darwin OS. Apple replaced working boot code with the following proprietary drivers, which are required for the system to boot. Darwin-7: AppleAPIC.kext/ Applei386genericplatform.kext/ Darwin-8: AppleACPIplatform In addition the kernel (xnu) has been taken proprietary in the recent revisions. We are not asking for Apple to give away such things, but rather to continue maintaining Darwin OS as FOSS, which it already was. After repeated attempts by many FOSS developers to get this situation remedied, nothing has happened. It is now time for us to better use the measures at our disposal in order to assure that Darwin OS remains free and open. If you are unhappy that xnu and the boot drivers have not been released, I would encourage you to spread your dissatisfaction to other forums, so that Apple will take notice and commit to a workable free and open Darwin OS from now on. Moving on to coalition strategy now, some of you may not know that GNU/Linux system administration is one of my day jobs. I manage a wide range of systems. Here is a screen-shot of my work desktop, so that you can see I use the same tools at work that I use at home at night on GNU-Darwin. (weekends too, so please read I am your friend) http://proclus.gnu-darwin.org/debian.html The only time that I ever use proprietary software is when I am trying to help other users learn free and open source free software. I'm a long time Apple and GNU/Linux user, and here is the old proof doc ;-}. http://proclus.tripod.com/indulge.html Now, it is embarrassing but, I want you to have a look at my cv. http://biophysics.med.jhmi.edu/love/thesis/cv6.html In all my years I have never used Microsoft Windows. There are only two exceptions to this statement, where I was helping Windows users to access our servers at Hopkins. Clearly, you can get a few things done without it ;-}. One of the primary reasons for founding GNU-Darwin was to help people to put Microsoft behind them, and it is definitely possible to do it now. You have many resources at your disposal to help you leave Microsoft behind. Look at the link below to see what you can do with free software. Apple, GNU-Darwin, GNU.org, and GNU/Linux will all help, and we are largely all helping together, because we have a shared foundation of free software. http://www.gnu-darwin.org/gdc/ Microsoft is only one example. That is why we are so insistent that Apple keep true to free and open source software principles. We should ultimately try to leave all proprietary software behind us, so that we can participate fully in the freedom and openness of the internet culture and public domain. What more do we need, when we have such a rich store of information and so many capable people at our sides? Finally, as a scientist, it is obvious to me that this situation is relevant current and ongoing discussion in the scientific community, and as such, it is also clear that many members of the various lists would be interested in the current state of Darwin with respect to FOSS and with respect to science. Here is the crucial point. The principles of FOSS and scientific inquiry converge. In practical terms, how else can you know is what happening in your experiments? Free and open source software, open standards, best promote the scientific endeavor by mirroring its method, but also they assure that the work is accessible to the public. Freedom and openness are crucial to understanding, and foundational to the scientific endeavor, and they should not be compromised. There are a few examples of exceptions, but clearly, this matter will find further debate in the appropriate forums. We should not quell debate because a few people are offended or complaining. - From a scientific perspective that would be incorrect. On that last point, I would suggest that Apple get on the right side of the debate, and they will make tremendous headway. Now is the time. Some people will find this message annoying and divisive, and the delete button is ready at hand for them, but other people will find it interesting and engaging. All as you like. Let us not quell discussion because a few people are annoyed. Some will call this a troll, but I hope that folks will see through such name-calling. Trolls are mythological creatures, so don't believe in them. Everyone has a right to have their opinion heard, even if those opinions are divisive or unpopular. It is clear that the idea of trolls is being used to attack freedom of expression. In fact, freedom of expression demands that we listen to the so-called-trolls sometimes, and if you are civil, it helps, so don't resort to name-calling. On cross-posting; when there are matters of urgent importance that affect a broad range of subscriber lists, courtesy must sometimes take a back seat, and cross-posting is an example of that. Cross-posting is to be encouraged when the subject of the post is on topic. Each of the various lists will respond in the way that seems appropriate to the people in that forum, and the threads on the various lists will diverge accordingly. As the threads diverge, the cross-posting addresses should be removed as needed. Relevance to all people is an unattainable goal, but messages of the broadest applicability should have the broadest reach, and discussion should not be stymied because some find it irrelevant. I have given this method due consideration; it is not trolling, not spam, not off-topic, and cross-posting is an example of something that is sometimes required according to the felt importance and relevance of a given subject matter. In summary, Freedom and openness are now the bedrock of our civilization and public welfare depends on these values, so that we should actively engage ourselves in preserving and making them happen. In keeping with these principles it is crucial to note that there are exceptions to etiquette, otherwise free expression will be overly channeled, damped, and ultimately suppressed in our forums. This notion of courtesy will certainly receive additional consideration, but meanwhile, let us together get to work on the activism now. Duly, I am amenable to valid criticism and able to respond, but please reply with kindness. Obviously, feel free to write back, copy, or send these comments along to anyone else as you see fit. Regards, Michael L. Love Ph.D Department of Biophysics and Biophysical Chemistry School of Medicine Johns Hopkins University 725 N. Wolfe Street Room 608B WBSB Baltimore MD 21205-2185 Interoffice Mail: 608B WBSB, SoM office: 410-614-2267 lab: 410-614-3179 fax: 410-502-6910 cell: 443-824-3451 http://www.gnu-darwin.org/ -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.1 (Darwin) iD8DBQFEpIl6u0oI3iz5oZcRAtpQAJ9X7D6kq1vmWKXkG/3LBvx3gGrK1QCZAbgI 8Ww6QABLiZtmFmS9Ekea5nI= =a0Oy -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From aahz at pythoncraft.com Fri Jun 30 16:44:31 2006 From: aahz at pythoncraft.com (Aahz) Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2006 07:44:31 -0700 Subject: [Baypiggies] FOSS, Science, and Public activism In-Reply-To: <20060630124143.2DDB06B0F82@gnu-darwin.org> References: <20060630124143.2DDB06B0F82@gnu-darwin.org> Message-ID: <20060630144431.GA29240@panix.com> Sorry about this, folks; proclus at gnu-darwin.org has now been unsubscribed and banned. -- Aahz (aahz at pythoncraft.com) <*> http://www.pythoncraft.com/ "I saw `cout' being shifted "Hello world" times to the left and stopped right there." --Steve Gonedes