From mrbmahoney at gmail.com  Wed Jan  4 17:37:16 2006
From: mrbmahoney at gmail.com (Brian Mahoney)
Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2006 08:37:16 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] January Meeting ?
Message-ID: <5538c19b0601040837t1edc3272qd7228a6f6508f467@mail.gmail.com>

Is there a presentation for the January BayPiggies meeting next week?
Perhaps someone wishes to test-drive their PyCon talk?
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From jxd6 at hotmail.com  Wed Jan  4 20:57:18 2006
From: jxd6 at hotmail.com (John J. Dooley)
Date: Wed, 04 Jan 2006 11:57:18 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] {Baypiggies] Python support in ubuntu
Message-ID: <BAY108-F16C3AD185D9AED49D452158F2F0@phx.gbl>

I just switched to the ubuntu linux distribution and noticed it has 
exceptional Python support. The latest (5.10) comes with Python 2.4.2 
already installed and it has installable packages ready for many (almost a 
hundred?) well selected packages in recent revisions. This is saving 
countless frustrations over my previous Suse 9.2 distribution.

I would be interested in learning more about the strong connection between 
Python and the Ubuntu distribution. Does anyone in our community has some 
inside information?



From guido at python.org  Wed Jan  4 21:42:03 2006
From: guido at python.org (Guido van Rossum)
Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2006 12:42:03 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] {Baypiggies] Python support in ubuntu
In-Reply-To: <BAY108-F16C3AD185D9AED49D452158F2F0@phx.gbl>
References: <BAY108-F16C3AD185D9AED49D452158F2F0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <ca471dc20601041242j25e150edja504812af861a2ee@mail.gmail.com>

On 1/4/06, John J. Dooley <jxd6 at hotmail.com> wrote:
> I just switched to the ubuntu linux distribution and noticed it has
> exceptional Python support. The latest (5.10) comes with Python 2.4.2
> already installed and it has installable packages ready for many (almost a
> hundred?) well selected packages in recent revisions. This is saving
> countless frustrations over my previous Suse 9.2 distribution.
>
> I would be interested in learning more about the strong connection between
> Python and the Ubuntu distribution. Does anyone in our community has some
> inside information?

Not sure if this counts as inside info, but I think it's no
coincidence. Mark Shuttleworth is behind Ubuntu and he's been a big
Python fan ever since he wrote the first CGI script that became
Thawte. I believe I heard him say that he wants to promote Ubuntu
doing nearly everything with Python that can be done with Python. He's
also funding Zope demi-god Steve Alexander to do some work using parts
of Zope3. Try googling for schooltool.

--
--Guido van Rossum (home page: http://www.python.org/~guido/)

From larryt at winfirst.com  Wed Jan  4 09:31:33 2006
From: larryt at winfirst.com (larryt at winfirst.com)
Date: 04 Jan 2006 08:31:33 +0000
Subject: [Baypiggies] {Baypiggies] Python support in ubuntu
In-Reply-To: <ca471dc20601041242j25e150edja504812af861a2ee@mail.gmail.com>
References: <BAY108-F16C3AD185D9AED49D452158F2F0@phx.gbl>
	<ca471dc20601041242j25e150edja504812af861a2ee@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <x7hd8k8kd6.fsf@winfirst.com>


Guido van Rossum <guido at python.org> writes:

> On 1/4/06, John J. Dooley <jxd6 at hotmail.com> wrote:
> > I just switched to the ubuntu linux distribution and noticed it has
> > exceptional Python support. 
> 
> Not sure if this counts as inside info, but I think it's no
> coincidence. Mark Shuttleworth is behind Ubuntu and he's been a big
> Python fan ever since he wrote the first CGI script that became
> Thawte. I believe I heard him say that he wants to promote Ubuntu
> doing nearly everything with Python that can be done with Python. 

Perhaps stealing Gentoo's thunder in that regard.  Speaking of inside
info, does anybody have insight as to Gentoo's future?  They've never
been as up-to-date as one might hope, but the portage system is so
very cool.

-larry


From aleax at google.com  Wed Jan  4 22:56:12 2006
From: aleax at google.com (Alex Martelli)
Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2006 13:56:12 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] {Baypiggies] Python support in ubuntu
In-Reply-To: <BAY108-F16C3AD185D9AED49D452158F2F0@phx.gbl>
References: <BAY108-F16C3AD185D9AED49D452158F2F0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <55dc209b0601041356s62661dcfw560be5d7957eca23@mail.google.com>

On 1/4/06, John J. Dooley <jxd6 at hotmail.com> wrote:
   ...
> I would be interested in learning more about the strong connection between
> Python and the Ubuntu distribution. Does anyone in our community has some
> inside information?

Ubuntu was "preannounced" (not by name) by Mark Shuttleworth in his
keynote speech at Europython 2004; Martijn Fassen on the Europython
mailing list later summarized that speech (on a thread about who to
invite as keynote speakers for EP 2005) as "Mark Shuttleworth's talk
had a nice mix of space, python, and new linux distributions (with
good python support)".  As I recall Mark's long-term ambitions were
higher than "good python support", basically enabling somebody, say a
schoolmaster in a remote African village, to do ALL system
administration and customization knowing _only_ Python as their
scripting language (no knowledge whatsoever of tcl, perl, bash, etc,
required for the purpose); but maybe (my memory's uncertain) that
wasn't at Mark's keynote, but later during the conference dinner.


Alex

From marilyn at deliberate.com  Wed Jan  4 22:45:01 2006
From: marilyn at deliberate.com (Marilyn Davis)
Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2006 13:45:01 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Baypiggies] January Meeting ?
In-Reply-To: <5538c19b0601040837t1edc3272qd7228a6f6508f467@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0601041337240.456-100000@localhost.localdomain>

On Wed, 4 Jan 2006, Brian Mahoney wrote:

> Is there a presentation for the January BayPiggies meeting next week?
> Perhaps someone wishes to test-drive their PyCon talk?
> 

-- 

If no one steps forward with a PyCon talk, and if folks can tolerate a
45-minute tutorial, I'd love to get feedback and suggestions for
honing mine.  UCSC-Extension has set me up as their 'Python
Evangelist' and I'm giving some free lunchtime sales-pitches for
Python and a Python Course at some corporate sites, so I'm trying to
make it great.

And, if anyone knows an opportunity for such a sales pitch, outside
the UCSC structure, that would be cool.

Marilyn Davis, Ph.D.  http://www.deliberate.com/marilyn



From guido at python.org  Wed Jan  4 23:53:20 2006
From: guido at python.org (Guido van Rossum)
Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2006 14:53:20 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] {Baypiggies] Python support in ubuntu
In-Reply-To: <55dc209b0601041356s62661dcfw560be5d7957eca23@mail.google.com>
References: <BAY108-F16C3AD185D9AED49D452158F2F0@phx.gbl>
	<55dc209b0601041356s62661dcfw560be5d7957eca23@mail.google.com>
Message-ID: <ca471dc20601041453u89d5ae4uea207fa72e4e8668@mail.gmail.com>

On 1/4/06, Alex Martelli <aleax at google.com> wrote:
> As I recall Mark's long-term ambitions were
> higher than "good python support", basically enabling somebody, say a
> schoolmaster in a remote African village, to do ALL system
> administration and customization knowing _only_ Python as their
> scripting language (no knowledge whatsoever of tcl, perl, bash, etc,
> required for the purpose); but maybe (my memory's uncertain) that
> wasn't at Mark's keynote, but later during the conference dinner.

I was there and recall something similar.

--
--Guido van Rossum (home page: http://www.python.org/~guido/)

From jim at well.com  Wed Jan  4 23:57:58 2006
From: jim at well.com (jim stockford)
Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2006 14:57:58 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] January Meeting ?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0601041337240.456-100000@localhost.localdomain>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0601041337240.456-100000@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <8CB6718B-7D75-11DA-B56D-000A95EA5592@well.com>


what's a "honing mine"?
you ever evangelizing anywhere near san francisco?
You wanna talk to linux user group people or
*bsd people in SF?

Will the next meeting be Thursday, January 12,  7:30 PM?
At Google (1600 Amphitheatre Pkwy, Mountain View)?


On Jan 4, 2006, at 1:45 PM, Marilyn Davis wrote:

> On Wed, 4 Jan 2006, Brian Mahoney wrote:
>
>> Is there a presentation for the January BayPiggies meeting next week?
>> Perhaps someone wishes to test-drive their PyCon talk?
>>
>
> -- 
>
> If no one steps forward with a PyCon talk, and if folks can tolerate a
> 45-minute tutorial, I'd love to get feedback and suggestions for
> honing mine.  UCSC-Extension has set me up as their 'Python
> Evangelist' and I'm giving some free lunchtime sales-pitches for
> Python and a Python Course at some corporate sites, so I'm trying to
> make it great.
>
> And, if anyone knows an opportunity for such a sales pitch, outside
> the UCSC structure, that would be cool.
>
> Marilyn Davis, Ph.D.  http://www.deliberate.com/marilyn
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Baypiggies mailing list
> Baypiggies at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies
>


From marilyn at deliberate.com  Thu Jan  5 00:10:04 2006
From: marilyn at deliberate.com (Marilyn Davis)
Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2006 15:10:04 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Baypiggies] January Meeting ?
In-Reply-To: <8CB6718B-7D75-11DA-B56D-000A95EA5592@well.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0601041503070.456-100000@localhost.localdomain>

On Wed, 4 Jan 2006, jim stockford wrote:

> 
> what's a "honing mine"?

Oh Jim.  Did that read funny, or is it 'funnily'? *You* are the editor
guru.

> you ever evangelizing anywhere near san francisco?

Anywhere you say.

> You wanna talk to linux user group people or
> *bsd people in SF?

Sure.

> 
> Will the next meeting be Thursday, January 12,  7:30 PM?
> At Google (1600 Amphitheatre Pkwy, Mountain View)?

I'm not sure.  Someone else has to answer that.

Marilyn

> 
> 
> On Jan 4, 2006, at 1:45 PM, Marilyn Davis wrote:
> 
> > On Wed, 4 Jan 2006, Brian Mahoney wrote:
> >
> >> Is there a presentation for the January BayPiggies meeting next week?
> >> Perhaps someone wishes to test-drive their PyCon talk?
> >>
> >
> > -- 
> >
> > If no one steps forward with a PyCon talk, and if folks can tolerate a
> > 45-minute tutorial, I'd love to get feedback and suggestions for
> > honing mine.  UCSC-Extension has set me up as their 'Python
> > Evangelist' and I'm giving some free lunchtime sales-pitches for
> > Python and a Python Course at some corporate sites, so I'm trying to
> > make it great.
> >
> > And, if anyone knows an opportunity for such a sales pitch, outside
> > the UCSC structure, that would be cool.
> >
> > Marilyn Davis, Ph.D.  http://www.deliberate.com/marilyn
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Baypiggies mailing list
> > Baypiggies at python.org
> > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies
> >
> 
> 

-- 


From aahz at pythoncraft.com  Thu Jan  5 01:29:36 2006
From: aahz at pythoncraft.com (Aahz)
Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2006 16:29:36 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] January Meeting ?
In-Reply-To: <8CB6718B-7D75-11DA-B56D-000A95EA5592@well.com>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0601041337240.456-100000@localhost.localdomain>
	<8CB6718B-7D75-11DA-B56D-000A95EA5592@well.com>
Message-ID: <20060105002936.GA10774@panix.com>

On Wed, Jan 04, 2006, jim stockford wrote:
>
> Will the next meeting be Thursday, January 12,  7:30 PM?
> At Google (1600 Amphitheatre Pkwy, Mountain View)?

That's the plan.  Could one of the Google people confirm that, please?
-- 
Aahz (aahz at pythoncraft.com)           <*>         http://www.pythoncraft.com/

"Given that C++ has pointers and typecasts, it's really hard to have a
serious conversation about type safety with a C++ programmer and keep a
straight face.  It's kind of like having a guy who juggles chainsaws
wearing body armor arguing with a guy who juggles rubber chickens wearing
a T-shirt about who's in more danger."  --Roy Smith

From nnorwitz at gmail.com  Thu Jan  5 02:13:29 2006
From: nnorwitz at gmail.com (Neal Norwitz)
Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2006 17:13:29 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] January Meeting ?
In-Reply-To: <20060105002936.GA10774@panix.com>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0601041337240.456-100000@localhost.localdomain>
	<8CB6718B-7D75-11DA-B56D-000A95EA5592@well.com>
	<20060105002936.GA10774@panix.com>
Message-ID: <ee2a432c0601041713u16763eb4mcafdf2fde32491b1@mail.gmail.com>

On 1/4/06, Aahz <aahz at pythoncraft.com> wrote:
> On Wed, Jan 04, 2006, jim stockford wrote:
> >
> > Will the next meeting be Thursday, January 12,  7:30 PM?
> > At Google (1600 Amphitheatre Pkwy, Mountain View)?
>
> That's the plan.  Could one of the Google people confirm that, please?

I'm working on it.  Not sure which room yet.

n

From jim at well.com  Thu Jan  5 05:43:34 2006
From: jim at well.com (jim stockford)
Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2006 20:43:34 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] January Meeting ?
In-Reply-To: <20060105002936.GA10774@panix.com>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0601041337240.456-100000@localhost.localdomain>
	<8CB6718B-7D75-11DA-B56D-000A95EA5592@well.com>
	<20060105002936.GA10774@panix.com>
Message-ID: <D42A482A-7DA5-11DA-B56D-000A95EA5592@well.com>


If it's the C++ programmer who's juggling the
chainsaws, I don't think that person has much
body armor.

On Jan 4, 2006, at 4:29 PM, Aahz wrote:

> On Wed, Jan 04, 2006, jim stockford wrote:
>>
>> Will the next meeting be Thursday, January 12,  7:30 PM?
>> At Google (1600 Amphitheatre Pkwy, Mountain View)?
>
> That's the plan.  Could one of the Google people confirm that, please?
> -- 
> Aahz (aahz at pythoncraft.com)           <*>         
> http://www.pythoncraft.com/
>
> "Given that C++ has pointers and typecasts, it's really hard to have a
> serious conversation about type safety with a C++ programmer and keep a
> straight face.  It's kind of like having a guy who juggles chainsaws
> wearing body armor arguing with a guy who juggles rubber chickens 
> wearing
> a T-shirt about who's in more danger."  --Roy Smith
> _______________________________________________
> Baypiggies mailing list
> Baypiggies at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies
>


From annaraven at gmail.com  Thu Jan  5 19:13:43 2006
From: annaraven at gmail.com (Anna Ravenscroft)
Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2006 10:13:43 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] January Meeting ?
In-Reply-To: <8CB6718B-7D75-11DA-B56D-000A95EA5592@well.com>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0601041337240.456-100000@localhost.localdomain>
	<8CB6718B-7D75-11DA-B56D-000A95EA5592@well.com>
Message-ID: <cb361a610601051013u8c3c33bpe9fc8f71fa1448bb@mail.gmail.com>

> > If no one steps forward with a PyCon talk, and if folks can tolerate a
> > 45-minute tutorial, I'd love to get feedback and suggestions for
> > honing mine.  UCSC-Extension has set me up as their 'Python
> > Evangelist' and I'm giving some free lunchtime sales-pitches for
> > Python and a Python Course at some corporate sites, so I'm trying to
> > make it great.
> >
> > And, if anyone knows an opportunity for such a sales pitch, outside
> > the UCSC structure, that would be cool.
> >
> > Marilyn Davis, Ph.D.  http://www.deliberate.com/marilyn

I think that's a great idea. I'd love to see your presentation.

Anna

From nnorwitz at gmail.com  Fri Jan  6 01:28:23 2006
From: nnorwitz at gmail.com (Neal Norwitz)
Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2006 16:28:23 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] January Meeting ?
In-Reply-To: <ee2a432c0601041713u16763eb4mcafdf2fde32491b1@mail.gmail.com>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0601041337240.456-100000@localhost.localdomain>
	<8CB6718B-7D75-11DA-B56D-000A95EA5592@well.com>
	<20060105002936.GA10774@panix.com>
	<ee2a432c0601041713u16763eb4mcafdf2fde32491b1@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <ee2a432c0601051628jb0ec29dw4491f3e10510a774@mail.gmail.com>

On 1/4/06, Neal Norwitz <nnorwitz at gmail.com> wrote:
> On 1/4/06, Aahz <aahz at pythoncraft.com> wrote:
> > On Wed, Jan 04, 2006, jim stockford wrote:
> > >
> > > Will the next meeting be Thursday, January 12,  7:30 PM?
> > > At Google (1600 Amphitheatre Pkwy, Mountain View)?
> >
> > That's the plan.  Could one of the Google people confirm that, please?
>
> I'm working on it.  Not sure which room yet.

Tunis (same room as last time) is reserved.  Jan 12, 7.30pm.  We'll
meet in the Building 43 lobby as normal.

n

From wescpy at gmail.com  Fri Jan  6 01:36:32 2006
From: wescpy at gmail.com (w chun)
Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2006 16:36:32 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] January Meeting ?
In-Reply-To: <ee2a432c0601051628jb0ec29dw4491f3e10510a774@mail.gmail.com>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0601041337240.456-100000@localhost.localdomain>
	<8CB6718B-7D75-11DA-B56D-000A95EA5592@well.com>
	<20060105002936.GA10774@panix.com>
	<ee2a432c0601041713u16763eb4mcafdf2fde32491b1@mail.gmail.com>
	<ee2a432c0601051628jb0ec29dw4491f3e10510a774@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <78b3a9580601051636wb1f4d56k31aae78b34aa9735@mail.gmail.com>

if no one is going to take this slot, then we'll give it to maryilyn...

marilyn, can you send your: 1) talk title, 2) talk summary, and 3)
short bio to us at mailto:baypiggies-owner at python.org and someone will
update the website and send out the announcement?

brian, you can organize dinner as usual if you're coming to the
meeting... let us know if not, and one of us will set it up.

next month, we can take another pre-PyCon practice session for *2-3*
PyCon talks (each talk is limited to 25-30min)... pls send info to us.
 i can take one of the 3 of there is room left.

for march's and maybe april's talk, we'll (obviously) do a recap of
various and interesting PyCon sessions and hopefully have Guido
(re)deliver his Python SoU address.

thanks!
-wesley
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
"Core Python Programming", Prentice Hall, (c)2006,2001
    http://corepython.com

wesley.j.chun :: wescpy-at-gmail.com
cyberweb.consulting : silicon valley, ca
http://cyberwebconsulting.com

From cappy2112 at gmail.com  Fri Jan  6 02:07:17 2006
From: cappy2112 at gmail.com (Tony C)
Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2006 17:07:17 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] Bjarne Stroustrops thoughts on C++
Message-ID: <8249c4ac0601051707y14590f9do741f95b2b4b832d7@mail.gmail.com>

Not sure if I've already posted this here before, but heck it's a new year,
and I just love Aahz's last sig

http://www.tcapp.com/pub/C++/

On 1/4/06, jim stockford <jim at well.com> wrote:
>
>
> If it's the C++ programmer who's juggling the
> chainsaws, I don't think that person has much
> body armor.
>
>
>
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From jim at well.com  Fri Jan  6 04:19:58 2006
From: jim at well.com (jim stockford)
Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2006 19:19:58 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] Bjarne Stroustrops thoughts on C++
In-Reply-To: <8249c4ac0601051707y14590f9do741f95b2b4b832d7@mail.gmail.com>
References: <8249c4ac0601051707y14590f9do741f95b2b4b832d7@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <50F63C0D-7E63-11DA-B56D-000A95EA5592@well.com>


for the record:
http://public.research.att.com/~bs/slashdot_interview.html

    the above is worth reading, similarly chatty style to Tony's
contribution, with lots of links to other Bjarne Stroustrup
info. in it BS does suggest Unix be re-written in C++ and
claims to _like_ multiple inheritance.
    As to me, I think that Object Oriented Programming adds
a whole new dimension to the term "spaghetti code".

On Jan 5, 2006, at 5:07 PM, Tony C wrote:

> Not sure if I've already posted this here before, but heck it's a new 
> year, and I just love Aahz's last sig
>
> http://www.tcapp.com/pub/C++/
>
> On 1/4/06, jim stockford <jim at well.com> wrote:
>
> If it's the C++ programmer who's juggling the
> chainsaws, I don't think that person has much
> body armor.
>
>
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From noel.yap at gmail.com  Fri Jan  6 04:52:08 2006
From: noel.yap at gmail.com (Noel Yap)
Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2006 19:52:08 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] Bjarne Stroustrops thoughts on C++
In-Reply-To: <8249c4ac0601051707y14590f9do741f95b2b4b832d7@mail.gmail.com>
References: <8249c4ac0601051707y14590f9do741f95b2b4b832d7@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <70d0a1130601051952x51e90050xa0ddbbac38bb83ba@mail.gmail.com>

I've heard this interview is a hoax.  For one thing, much of the
complexities and gotchas of C++ came about after the language was out
of BS's control.

Noel

On 1/5/06, Tony C <cappy2112 at gmail.com> wrote:
> Not sure if I've already posted this here before, but heck it's a new year,
> and I just love Aahz's last sig
>
> http://www.tcapp.com/pub/C++/
>
> On 1/4/06, jim stockford <jim at well.com> wrote:
> >
> > If it's the C++ programmer who's juggling the
> > chainsaws, I don't think that person has much
> > body armor.
> >
> >
> >
>
> _______________________________________________
> Baypiggies mailing list
> Baypiggies at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies
>
>
>

From marilyn at deliberate.com  Fri Jan  6 08:43:33 2006
From: marilyn at deliberate.com (Marilyn Davis)
Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2006 23:43:33 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Baypiggies] January Meeting ?
In-Reply-To: <78b3a9580601051636wb1f4d56k31aae78b34aa9735@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0601052342230.456-100000@localhost.localdomain>

On Thu, 5 Jan 2006, w chun wrote:

> if no one is going to take this slot, then we'll give it to maryilyn...

Thank you for the opportunity.

> 
> marilyn, can you send your: 1) talk title, 2) talk summary, and 3)
> short bio to us at mailto:baypiggies-owner at python.org and someone will
> update the website and send out the announcement?

Done.

Thanks again.

Marilyn

> 
> brian, you can organize dinner as usual if you're coming to the
> meeting... let us know if not, and one of us will set it up.
> 
> next month, we can take another pre-PyCon practice session for *2-3*
> PyCon talks (each talk is limited to 25-30min)... pls send info to us.
>  i can take one of the 3 of there is room left.
> 
> for march's and maybe april's talk, we'll (obviously) do a recap of
> various and interesting PyCon sessions and hopefully have Guido
> (re)deliver his Python SoU address.
> 
> thanks!
> -wesley
> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
> "Core Python Programming", Prentice Hall, (c)2006,2001
>     http://corepython.com
> 
> wesley.j.chun :: wescpy-at-gmail.com
> cyberweb.consulting : silicon valley, ca
> http://cyberwebconsulting.com
> _______________________________________________
> Baypiggies mailing list
> Baypiggies at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies
> 

-- 


From cappy2112 at gmail.com  Fri Jan  6 18:55:33 2006
From: cappy2112 at gmail.com (Tony C)
Date: Fri, 6 Jan 2006 09:55:33 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] Bjarne Stroustrops thoughts on C++
In-Reply-To: <70d0a1130601051952x51e90050xa0ddbbac38bb83ba@mail.gmail.com>
References: <8249c4ac0601051707y14590f9do741f95b2b4b832d7@mail.gmail.com>
	<70d0a1130601051952x51e90050xa0ddbbac38bb83ba@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <8249c4ac0601060955k1e06a4f9n9ba2b85892adee0c@mail.gmail.com>

Of course it's a hoax. It's obvious as hell.
That's what makes it so funny


On 1/5/06, Noel Yap <noel.yap at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I've heard this interview is a hoax.  For one thing, much of the
> complexities and gotchas of C++ came about after the language was out
> of BS's control.
>
> Noel
>
> On 1/5/06, Tony C <cappy2112 at gmail.com> wrote:
> > Not sure if I've already posted this here before, but heck it's a new
> year,
> > and I just love Aahz's last sig
> >
> > http://www.tcapp.com/pub/C++/
> >
> > On 1/4/06, jim stockford <jim at well.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > If it's the C++ programmer who's juggling the
> > > chainsaws, I don't think that person has much
> > > body armor.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Baypiggies mailing list
> > Baypiggies at python.org
> > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies
> >
> >
> >
>
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From jjinux at gmail.com  Sat Jan  7 03:53:22 2006
From: jjinux at gmail.com (Shannon -jj Behrens)
Date: Fri, 6 Jan 2006 18:53:22 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] Bjarne Stroustrops thoughts on C++
In-Reply-To: <8249c4ac0601060955k1e06a4f9n9ba2b85892adee0c@mail.gmail.com>
References: <8249c4ac0601051707y14590f9do741f95b2b4b832d7@mail.gmail.com>
	<70d0a1130601051952x51e90050xa0ddbbac38bb83ba@mail.gmail.com>
	<8249c4ac0601060955k1e06a4f9n9ba2b85892adee0c@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <c41f67b90601061853x4653f01ejfe60611c5ec8905c@mail.gmail.com>

On 1/6/06, Tony C <cappy2112 at gmail.com> wrote:
> Of course it's a hoax. It's obvious as hell.
> That's what makes it so funny

Yeah, Bjarne Stroustrup's C++ is total BS.

--
Law is much too important to be left to politicians, lawyers, and celebrities.

From dhopkins at laszlomail.com  Sat Jan  7 05:55:04 2006
From: dhopkins at laszlomail.com (Don Hopkins)
Date: Fri, 6 Jan 2006 20:55:04 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Baypiggies] Bjarne Stroustrops thoughts on C++
Message-ID: <1716610641.1136609704731.JavaMail.dhopkins@localhost>


Another classic hoax, perpetrated by BS himself, was the "Generalized 
Overloading for C++2000" paper, dated April 1.



As much as I hate linking to pdf files, it's worth it to see the 
rendition of "my_phone->off_hook()" in Zapf Dingbats:


http://public.research.att.com/~bs/whitespace98.pdf


      -Don
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From dp at ulaluma.com  Wed Jan  4 21:46:23 2006
From: dp at ulaluma.com (Donovan Preston)
Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2006 12:46:23 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] {Baypiggies] Python support in ubuntu
In-Reply-To: <BAY108-F16C3AD185D9AED49D452158F2F0@phx.gbl>
References: <BAY108-F16C3AD185D9AED49D452158F2F0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <79810CAB-3B50-4CB7-9C79-8738289211D1@ulaluma.com>

On Jan 4, 2006, at 11:57 AM, John J. Dooley wrote:
> I just switched to the ubuntu linux distribution and noticed it has
> exceptional Python support. The latest (5.10) comes with Python 2.4.2
> already installed and it has installable packages ready for many  
> (almost a
> hundred?) well selected packages in recent revisions. This is saving
> countless frustrations over my previous Suse 9.2 distribution.
>
> I would be interested in learning more about the strong connection  
> between
> Python and the Ubuntu distribution. Does anyone in our community  
> has some
> inside information?

Ubuntu is heavily funded by Mark Shuttleworth, a well-known Python  
advocate and generally froody guy. He supports other projects built  
with Python, such as SchoolTool. I think he claims he made most of  
his money thanks to Python so it's not a surprise that Ubuntu is such  
a Python-friendly distro.

dp


From aahz at pythoncraft.com  Sat Jan  7 16:54:08 2006
From: aahz at pythoncraft.com (Aahz)
Date: Sat, 7 Jan 2006 07:54:08 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] BayPIGgies: January 12, 7:30pm (Google)
Message-ID: <20060107155408.GA13810@panix.com>

The next meeting of BayPIGgies will be Thurs, January 12 at 7:30pm at
Google, room Tunis.  Meet in the lobby of building 43.

This will be a combo meeting:

* First Marilyn Davis will practice her "Why Python?" talk -- she's
looking for feedback and suggestions on improving it.

* We'll fill the rest of the time with a "Newbies Night"; this is your
opportunity to get realtime responses to questions about Python


BayPIGgies meetings alternate between IronPort (San Bruno, California)
and Google (Mountain View, California).  For more information and
directions, see http://baypiggies.net/


Before the meeting, we sometimes meet at 6pm for dinner.  Discussion of
dinner plans is handled on the BayPIGgies mailing list.  

Advance notice:  We need speakers for February and later; the February
meeting is currently reserved for PyCon speakers wanting practice, and
the March meeting will probably be a PyCon wrap-up.  Please e-mail
baypiggies at python.org if you want to suggest an agenda (or volunteer to
give a presentation).
-- 
Aahz (aahz at pythoncraft.com)           <*>         http://www.pythoncraft.com/

"19. A language that doesn't affect the way you think about programming,
is not worth knowing."  --Alan Perlis

From dhopkins at laszlomail.com  Sun Jan  8 02:38:46 2006
From: dhopkins at laszlomail.com (Don Hopkins)
Date: Sat, 7 Jan 2006 17:38:46 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Baypiggies] The Inverse Extend Design Pattern
Message-ID: <128518057.1136684326074.JavaMail.dhopkins@localhost>

I totally agree with Shannon's theory he states in the comments on his 
Inverse Extension Design Pattern article -- it's not only a great joke, 
but also the awful truth:

http://www.linuxjournal.com/article/8747?

"I've joked that you could make a living writing about features that 
already in exist in Common Lisp, reimplementing them in languages like 
Python and Ruby."

Exactly! Can you say "Aspect Oriented Programming"? Look at the great 
success Martin Fowler has had, trickling down the features from CLOS and 
Lisp macros into Java.

The trick is to only introduce a few small features in isolation at a 
time, and space them out over enough years for people to calm down from 
the thrill of each new Common Lisp feature you introduce, otherwise they 
will accuse you of trying to reimplement Lisp, and banish you forever.

It also helps if you choose an implementation language that's suitably 
non-lisp-like, like Java. Many Lisp tricks are much easier to express in 
Python than Java, thus less impressive. But with Java, simple tricks 
that are so easy to do in Lisp require huge elaborate productions (code 
slicing, special development tools and pre-processors, etc) so they seem 
like such a big deal in Java. And that sells more books!

-Don


From jjinux at gmail.com  Sun Jan  8 06:05:30 2006
From: jjinux at gmail.com (Shannon -jj Behrens)
Date: Sat, 7 Jan 2006 21:05:30 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] The Inverse Extend Design Pattern
In-Reply-To: <128518057.1136684326074.JavaMail.dhopkins@localhost>
References: <128518057.1136684326074.JavaMail.dhopkins@localhost>
Message-ID: <c41f67b90601072105y6ee97227u4fb5246a8944047b@mail.gmail.com>

On 1/7/06, Don Hopkins <dhopkins at laszlomail.com> wrote:
> I totally agree with Shannon's theory he states in the comments on his
> Inverse Extension Design Pattern article -- it's not only a great joke,
> but also the awful truth:
>
> http://www.linuxjournal.com/article/8747
>
> "I've joked that you could make a living writing about features that
> already in exist in Common Lisp, reimplementing them in languages like
> Python and Ruby."
>
> Exactly! Can you say "Aspect Oriented Programming"? Look at the great
> success Martin Fowler has had, trickling down the features from CLOS and
> Lisp macros into Java.
>
> The trick is to only introduce a few small features in isolation at a
> time, and space them out over enough years for people to calm down from
> the thrill of each new Common Lisp feature you introduce, otherwise they
> will accuse you of trying to reimplement Lisp, and banish you forever.
>
> It also helps if you choose an implementation language that's suitably
> non-lisp-like, like Java. Many Lisp tricks are much easier to express in
> Python than Java, thus less impressive. But with Java, simple tricks
> that are so easy to do in Lisp require huge elaborate productions (code
> slicing, special development tools and pre-processors, etc) so they seem
> like such a big deal in Java. And that sells more books!

hahaha

Thanks for mentioning my article and my comment ;)  I guess I should
be happy that although you *can* implement "inverse extension" in
CLOS, it isn't yet a special form or anything.  That puts CLOS and
Python on an even playing field as far as that is concerned. 
Nonetheless, there *are* other things that can be cherry picked ;)

-jj

--
Law is much too important to be left to politicians, lawyers, and celebrities.

From jjinux at gmail.com  Sun Jan  8 06:31:33 2006
From: jjinux at gmail.com (Shannon -jj Behrens)
Date: Sat, 7 Jan 2006 21:31:33 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] {Baypiggies] Python support in ubuntu
In-Reply-To: <79810CAB-3B50-4CB7-9C79-8738289211D1@ulaluma.com>
References: <BAY108-F16C3AD185D9AED49D452158F2F0@phx.gbl>
	<79810CAB-3B50-4CB7-9C79-8738289211D1@ulaluma.com>
Message-ID: <c41f67b90601072131y79f85e3fh9417769bddeb4b5f@mail.gmail.com>

On 1/4/06, Donovan Preston <dp at ulaluma.com> wrote:
> On Jan 4, 2006, at 11:57 AM, John J. Dooley wrote:
> > I just switched to the ubuntu linux distribution and noticed it has
> > exceptional Python support. The latest (5.10) comes with Python 2.4.2
> > already installed and it has installable packages ready for many
> > (almost a
> > hundred?) well selected packages in recent revisions. This is saving
> > countless frustrations over my previous Suse 9.2 distribution.
> >
> > I would be interested in learning more about the strong connection
> > between
> > Python and the Ubuntu distribution. Does anyone in our community
> > has some
> > inside information?
>
> Ubuntu is heavily funded by Mark Shuttleworth, a well-known Python
> advocate and generally froody guy. He supports other projects built
> with Python, such as SchoolTool. I think he claims he made most of
> his money thanks to Python so it's not a surprise that Ubuntu is such
> a Python-friendly distro.

Just so the Fedora guys don't feel left out, remember that the
installer and all the system configuration tools in Fedora are written
using PyGTK.  It's nice :)

-jj

--
Law is much too important to be left to politicians, lawyers, and celebrities.

From mrbmahoney at gmail.com  Mon Jan  9 17:11:27 2006
From: mrbmahoney at gmail.com (Brian Mahoney)
Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2006 08:11:27 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] Dinner Announcement - Jan 12 - Mtn VIew
Message-ID: <5538c19b0601090811p7d01371vfa4eb9b6678f39b9@mail.gmail.com>

I can coordinate the pre-meeting Baypiggies dinner
this Thursday in Mountain View, before the
presentations at Google ("Why Python?" and
"Newbies' Night" )

The restaurant is Cafe Yulong in downtown Mountain View.
743 W Dana Street, 1/2 block from Castro where
Books, Inc is on the corner.

It is a slightly out of the ordinary Chinese
restaurant.  This link has a downtown map and
additional information.
http://www.mountainviewca.net/restaurants/cafeyulong.html

I've made reservations under "Mahoney / BayPiggies"
for 6pm Thursday.

If you wish to join us for dinner please e-mail me
by 3 pm Thursday (earlier is better) so I confirm
the headcount.

From nnorwitz at gmail.com  Mon Jan  9 22:48:05 2006
From: nnorwitz at gmail.com (Neal Norwitz)
Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2006 13:48:05 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] Room location update
Message-ID: <ee2a432c0601091348w1cf3d198v38162e38d8cb530c@mail.gmail.com>

The room we used last time (Tunis) isn't available.  So we are in a
place called Tech Talk 42.  We will still meet in Building 43 lobby
and walk to TT-42.  (Sorry if I already sent this, I can't remember.)

n

From kseehof at neuralintegrator.com  Tue Jan 10 22:45:08 2006
From: kseehof at neuralintegrator.com (Ken Seehof)
Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 13:45:08 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] Embedded python SBC?
Message-ID: <43C42AE4.5060404@neuralintegrator.com>

I'm looking for a SBC (single board computer) capable of running 
embedded Linux and Python programs (for http processing and hardware 
control).

Under $200/unit
Ethernet
About a dozen TTL digital I/O lines
Speed is irrelevant, low power preferred
Small form factor preferred

Thanks,
- Ken



From todd.valentic at sri.com  Tue Jan 10 23:28:42 2006
From: todd.valentic at sri.com (Todd Valentic)
Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 14:28:42 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] Embedded python SBC?
In-Reply-To: <43C42AE4.5060404@neuralintegrator.com>
References: <43C42AE4.5060404@neuralintegrator.com>
Message-ID: <1136932122.4781.139.camel@localhost.localdomain>

On Tue, 2006-01-10 at 13:45 -0800, Ken Seehof wrote:
> I'm looking for a SBC (single board computer) capable of running 
> embedded Linux and Python programs (for http processing and hardware 
> control).
> 
> Under $200/unit
> Ethernet
> About a dozen TTL digital I/O lines
> Speed is irrelevant, low power preferred
> Small form factor preferred


I've had a lot of fun playing with the gumstix (www.gumstix.com) boards.
They are literally the size of a stick of gum and can be mated to a
variety of add on boards for I/O and networking. They run a version of
linux built around the busybox/uClibc toolchain (which is pretty common
in the embedded space). Great support and community involvement.
Although they are commercial products, it almost feels like an open
source project. I helped to get the Python port running on them. It runs
reasonably well (and it should - the base hardware is a 400MHz ARM
processor with 64MB of RAM).

Todd



From wescpy at gmail.com  Thu Jan 12 00:39:42 2006
From: wescpy at gmail.com (w chun)
Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2006 15:39:42 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] ANN: Python training, 2006 Feb 1-3, San Francisco
In-Reply-To: <78b3a9580512071246q78875246l921c7e9c85d8bbfb@mail.gmail.com>
References: <78b3a9580512071246q78875246l921c7e9c85d8bbfb@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <78b3a9580601111539t87b9985qd39a531201f4764b@mail.gmail.com>

as promised, this is the FINAL reminder i'll send out about our
upcoming Python course at the beginning of February.  (Feb 1-3, 9a-5p
PT)

 it'll be at a hotel with BART and CalTrain access (San Bruno
stations) for those already in the Bay Area, and for those coming in
from out-of-town, there's a free shuttle directly from the San
Francisco airport, which is only about 2-3 miles away.

discounts available for multiple registrants as well as students,
teachers, and those with financial hardship.  also, there is a
follow-on "advanced" course coming up in May.  more details at
http://cyberwebconsulting.com

hope to see you soon!
-wesley


On 12/7/05, w chun <wescpy at gmail.com> wrote:
> What:   Python Programming I: Introduction to Python
> When:   February 1-3, 2006
> Where:  San Francisco, CA, USA
> Web:    http://cyberwebconsulting.com
>
> Need to get up-to-speed with Python as quickly as possible?  Come join
> us in beautiful Northern California for another rigorous Python
> training event taught by software engineer, "Core Python Programming"
> author, and technical instructor Wesley Chun.
>
> This is an intense introduction to Python programming geared towards
> those who have some proficiency in another high-level language.
> Topics include:
>
>     * Syntax, Data Types, Operators, and Methods
>     * Python's Objects and Memory Model
>     * Errors and Exception Handling
>     * Flow Control (Loops and Conditionals)
>     * Writing Optimized Python
>     * Files and Input/Output
>     * Functions and Functional Programming Aspects
>     * Modules and Packages
>     * OOP: Classes, Methods, and Class Instances
>     * OOP: Class Customization, Inheritance
>     * Execution Environment
>     * Operating System Interface
>     * Advanced Topics and Python Updates
>
> This course will take place near the San Francisco International Airport at the:
>
> Staybridge Suites
> San Francisco Airport
> 1350 Huntington Ave
> San Bruno, CA  94066 USA
> +1-650-588-0770
>
> VISITORS: free transportation to/from the San Francisco International airport
> LOCALS and VISITORS:  easy access to public transit (BART [across the
> street!], CalTrain, SamTrans) can help you get all over the San
> Francisco Bay Area
>
> Discounts are available for multiple registrations as well as
> teachers/students.  For more information and registration, go to
> http://cyberwebconsulting.com and click on the "Python Training" link.
>  Unlike previous courses, we are limiting enrollment to a maximum of
> 15 attendees.  If you have any questions, feel free to contact us at
> cyberweb-at-rocketmail.com.
>
> For those who are interested in more "advanced" Python topics, we will
> be offering a follow-on course late Spring 2006 (most likely May).
> Also, if there is sufficient interest, we may hold another one of
> these "Intro to Python" courses down in Silicon Valley in April;
> contact me directly if you're interested in this location.
>
> Note: i will only send out ONE MORE REMINDER in January... yeah, i
> don't like spam either. :-)
>
> cheers,
> -- wesley
> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
> "Core Python Programming", Prentice Hall, (c)2006,2001
>     http://corepython.com
>
> wesley.j.chun :: wescpy-at-gmail.com
> cyberweb.consulting : silicon valley, ca
> http://cyberwebconsulting.com

From guido at python.org  Thu Jan 12 01:52:34 2006
From: guido at python.org (Guido van Rossum)
Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2006 16:52:34 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] Fwd: Looking for Sr. Software Architect for new
	anti-spam start-up
Message-ID: <ca471dc20601111652r4a5b4574la754abf177e06646@mail.gmail.com>

Steve's an old acquaineance of mine; he founded Infoseek (a search
company that did everything in Python, eventually sold to Inktomi I
believe) and before that Frame.

--Guido

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Steve Kirsch <stk at propel.com>
Date: Jan 11, 2006 3:31 PM
Subject: Looing for Sr. Software Architect for new anti-spam start-up
To: Guido van Rossum <guido at python.org>




I'm trying to fill this position: Sr. Software Architect for new
anti-spam start-up at Propel Software.

If you have a moment, I'd appreciate your help. Please take a look and
forward this job on to anyone you think would be interested in the
position, or anyone else who could help me find a great candidate.

 Thanks for your help!
 -Steve

P.S. If you cannot view the link, paste this into your browser:
 https://www.linkedin.com/e/ksArzgcxO6-6YWMLFK8FDwCLMxx/vjb/35210/bjob/
________________________________


This email was sent to you by Steve Kirsch (stk at propel.com) through
LinkedIn because you and Steve are connected. If you have any
questions, please contact customer_service at linkedin.com.

--
--Guido van Rossum (home page: http://www.python.org/~guido/)

From david at zachary.com  Thu Jan 12 02:07:05 2006
From: david at zachary.com (David Creemer)
Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2006 17:07:05 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] Fwd: Looking for Sr. Software Architect for new
	anti-spam start-up
In-Reply-To: <ca471dc20601111652r4a5b4574la754abf177e06646@mail.gmail.com>
References: <ca471dc20601111652r4a5b4574la754abf177e06646@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <29D8C57A-5C65-4934-9F82-D4784E1EDA5A@zachary.com>

Just a minor FYI -- Kirsch sold Infoseek to Disney, where is became  
part of "go.com".

-- David

On Jan 11, 2006, at 4:52 PM, Guido van Rossum wrote:

> Steve's an old acquaineance of mine; he founded Infoseek (a search
> company that did everything in Python, eventually sold to Inktomi I
> believe) and before that Frame.
>
> --Guido
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: Steve Kirsch <stk at propel.com>
> Date: Jan 11, 2006 3:31 PM
> Subject: Looing for Sr. Software Architect for new anti-spam start-up
> To: Guido van Rossum <guido at python.org>
>
>
>
>
> I'm trying to fill this position: Sr. Software Architect for new
> anti-spam start-up at Propel Software.
>
> If you have a moment, I'd appreciate your help. Please take a look and
> forward this job on to anyone you think would be interested in the
> position, or anyone else who could help me find a great candidate.
>
>  Thanks for your help!
>  -Steve
>
> P.S. If you cannot view the link, paste this into your browser:
>  https://www.linkedin.com/e/ksArzgcxO6-6YWMLFK8FDwCLMxx/vjb/35210/ 
> bjob/
> ________________________________
>
>
> This email was sent to you by Steve Kirsch (stk at propel.com) through
> LinkedIn because you and Steve are connected. If you have any
> questions, please contact customer_service at linkedin.com.
>
> --
> --Guido van Rossum (home page: http://www.python.org/~guido/)
> _______________________________________________
> Baypiggies mailing list
> Baypiggies at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies


From guido at python.org  Thu Jan 12 03:55:15 2006
From: guido at python.org (Guido van Rossum)
Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2006 18:55:15 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] Fwd: Looking for Sr. Software Architect for new
	anti-spam start-up
In-Reply-To: <29D8C57A-5C65-4934-9F82-D4784E1EDA5A@zachary.com>
References: <ca471dc20601111652r4a5b4574la754abf177e06646@mail.gmail.com>
	<29D8C57A-5C65-4934-9F82-D4784E1EDA5A@zachary.com>
Message-ID: <ca471dc20601111855h50dabaffpcaf7097d7bcdb0fd@mail.gmail.com>

So true. But Ultraseek was sold to Inktomi. And Disney basically dropped go.com.

On 1/11/06, David Creemer <david at zachary.com> wrote:
> Just a minor FYI -- Kirsch sold Infoseek to Disney, where is became
> part of "go.com".
>
> -- David
>
> On Jan 11, 2006, at 4:52 PM, Guido van Rossum wrote:
>
> > Steve's an old acquaineance of mine; he founded Infoseek (a search
> > company that did everything in Python, eventually sold to Inktomi I
> > believe) and before that Frame.
> >
> > --Guido
> >
> > ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> > From: Steve Kirsch <stk at propel.com>
> > Date: Jan 11, 2006 3:31 PM
> > Subject: Looing for Sr. Software Architect for new anti-spam start-up
> > To: Guido van Rossum <guido at python.org>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > I'm trying to fill this position: Sr. Software Architect for new
> > anti-spam start-up at Propel Software.
> >
> > If you have a moment, I'd appreciate your help. Please take a look and
> > forward this job on to anyone you think would be interested in the
> > position, or anyone else who could help me find a great candidate.
> >
> >  Thanks for your help!
> >  -Steve
> >
> > P.S. If you cannot view the link, paste this into your browser:
> >  https://www.linkedin.com/e/ksArzgcxO6-6YWMLFK8FDwCLMxx/vjb/35210/
> > bjob/
> > ________________________________
> >
> >
> > This email was sent to you by Steve Kirsch (stk at propel.com) through
> > LinkedIn because you and Steve are connected. If you have any
> > questions, please contact customer_service at linkedin.com.
> >
> > --
> > --Guido van Rossum (home page: http://www.python.org/~guido/)
> > _______________________________________________
> > Baypiggies mailing list
> > Baypiggies at python.org
> > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies
>
> _______________________________________________
> Baypiggies mailing list
> Baypiggies at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies
>


--
--Guido van Rossum (home page: http://www.python.org/~guido/)

From guido at python.org  Thu Jan 12 21:29:18 2006
From: guido at python.org (Guido van Rossum)
Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2006 12:29:18 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] Fwd: Fwd: Looking for Sr. Software Architect for new
	anti-spam start-up
In-Reply-To: <F1038F3A-315C-4F24-81EC-40071D62EB98@propel.com>
References: <ca471dc20601111652r4a5b4574la754abf177e06646@mail.gmail.com>
	<F1038F3A-315C-4F24-81EC-40071D62EB98@propel.com>
Message-ID: <ca471dc20601121229m44c64041yda155c772e490d3e@mail.gmail.com>

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Eric Brown <eric.brown at propel.com>
Date: Jan 12, 2006 11:48 AM
Subject: Re: [Baypiggies] Fwd: Looking for Sr. Software Architect for
new anti-spam start-up
To: Guido van Rossum <guido at python.org>


I'm an engineer working for Steve and will be at the meeting tonight
if anybody has questions about either of his python based startups -
anti-spam and internet acceleration. (The anti-spam startup is being
spun out from the acceleration startup.) White-sweater, blue shirt,
beard, short.

Eric
408-499-2965
eric.brown at propel.com

Anti-spam engineering startup openings are here:
http://epg.propel.com/corporate/careers/joblistings.html

The accelerator engineering opening is here:
http://www2.propel.com/careers/openings/se.html

On Jan 11, 2006, at 4:52 PM, Guido van Rossum wrote:

> Steve's an old acquaineance of mine; he founded Infoseek (a search
> company that did everything in Python, eventually sold to Inktomi I
> believe) and before that Frame.
>
> --Guido
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: Steve Kirsch <stk at propel.com>
> Date: Jan 11, 2006 3:31 PM
> Subject: Looing for Sr. Software Architect for new anti-spam start-up
> To: Guido van Rossum <guido at python.org>
>
>
>
>
> I'm trying to fill this position: Sr. Software Architect for new
> anti-spam start-up at Propel Software.
>
> If you have a moment, I'd appreciate your help. Please take a look and
> forward this job on to anyone you think would be interested in the
> position, or anyone else who could help me find a great candidate.
>
>  Thanks for your help!
>  -Steve
>
> P.S. If you cannot view the link, paste this into your browser:
>  https://www.linkedin.com/e/ksArzgcxO6-6YWMLFK8FDwCLMxx/vjb/35210/
> bjob/
> ________________________________
>
>
> This email was sent to you by Steve Kirsch (stk at propel.com) through
> LinkedIn because you and Steve are connected. If you have any
> questions, please contact customer_service at linkedin.com.
>
> --
> --Guido van Rossum (home page: http://www.python.org/~guido/)
> _______________________________________________
> Baypiggies mailing list
> Baypiggies at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies


--
--Guido van Rossum (home page: http://www.python.org/~guido/)

From davidsch at autonomy.com  Fri Jan 13 22:27:37 2006
From: davidsch at autonomy.com (David Schnepper)
Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2006 13:27:37 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] Ultraseek Lives!
Message-ID: <A73B823386300F48B4749C6EDAE41F6A0224FB82@VEX2.verity.com>


Ah, but Ultraseek thrived though all those companies; 
remains mostly written in Python, and loves it!

6 Flags over Ultraseek:
    infoseek.com
    go.com
    disney.com
    inktomi.com
    verity.com           (December 2002)
    autonomy.com         (January 2006)

(and, as always, www.ultraseek.com )

Dave

David Schnepper
Ultraseek Software Craftsman
david.schnepper at verity.com  +1-408-542-2306

-----Original Message-----
From: baypiggies-bounces at python.org
[mailto:baypiggies-bounces at python.org] On Behalf Of Guido van Rossum
Sent: Wednesday, January 11, 2006 6:55 PM
To: David Creemer
Cc: baypiggies at python.org
Subject: Re: [Baypiggies] Fwd: Looking for Sr. Software Architect for
newanti-spam start-up
Importance: Low

So true. But Ultraseek was sold to Inktomi. And Disney basically dropped
go.com.

On 1/11/06, David Creemer <david at zachary.com> wrote:
> Just a minor FYI -- Kirsch sold Infoseek to Disney, where is became
> part of "go.com".
>
> -- David
>
> On Jan 11, 2006, at 4:52 PM, Guido van Rossum wrote:
>
> > Steve's an old acquaineance of mine; he founded Infoseek (a search
> > company that did everything in Python, eventually sold to Inktomi I
> > believe) and before that Frame.
> >
> > --Guido
> >
> > ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> > From: Steve Kirsch <stk at propel.com>
> > Date: Jan 11, 2006 3:31 PM
> > Subject: Looing for Sr. Software Architect for new anti-spam
start-up
> > To: Guido van Rossum <guido at python.org>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > I'm trying to fill this position: Sr. Software Architect for new
> > anti-spam start-up at Propel Software.
> >
> > If you have a moment, I'd appreciate your help. Please take a look
and
> > forward this job on to anyone you think would be interested in the
> > position, or anyone else who could help me find a great candidate.
> >
> >  Thanks for your help!
> >  -Steve
> >
> > P.S. If you cannot view the link, paste this into your browser:
> >  https://www.linkedin.com/e/ksArzgcxO6-6YWMLFK8FDwCLMxx/vjb/35210/
> > bjob/
> > ________________________________

From marilyn at deliberate.com  Tue Jan 17 01:34:02 2006
From: marilyn at deliberate.com (Marilyn Davis)
Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2006 16:34:02 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Baypiggies] BayPIGgies: January 12, 7:30pm (Google)
In-Reply-To: <20060107155408.GA13810@panix.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0601161632360.456-100000@localhost.localdomain>

Thank you again for the opportunity to air my sales-pitch, and for
excellent feedback.

As a result of the feedback, I am rethinking the part about language
comparisons and the second code example: the sysadmin script.

If anyone has any ideas about for the center half of the talk, I'd
love to hear them.

Thanks again, especially for the warm reception.

Marilyn


From dyoo at hkn.eecs.berkeley.edu  Tue Jan 17 02:25:30 2006
From: dyoo at hkn.eecs.berkeley.edu (Danny Yoo)
Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2006 17:25:30 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Baypiggies] BayPIGgies: January 12, 7:30pm (Google)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0601161632360.456-100000@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0601161724320.20755-100000@hkn.eecs.berkeley.edu>



On Mon, 16 Jan 2006, Marilyn Davis wrote:

> Thank you again for the opportunity to air my sales-pitch, and for
> excellent feedback.
>
> As a result of the feedback, I am rethinking the part about language
> comparisons and the second code example: the sysadmin script.


Hi Marilyn,

I'm sorry I wasn't able to go to your talk!  Does anyone have a review or
notes on what Mariyn talked about?


From marilyn at deliberate.com  Tue Jan 17 02:54:23 2006
From: marilyn at deliberate.com (Marilyn Davis)
Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2006 17:54:23 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Baypiggies] BayPIGgies: January 12, 7:30pm (Google)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0601161724320.20755-100000@hkn.eecs.berkeley.edu>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0601161735250.456-100000@localhost.localdomain>

On Mon, 16 Jan 2006, Danny Yoo wrote:

> 
> 
> On Mon, 16 Jan 2006, Marilyn Davis wrote:
> 
> > Thank you again for the opportunity to air my sales-pitch, and for
> > excellent feedback.
> >
> > As a result of the feedback, I am rethinking the part about language
> > comparisons and the second code example: the sysadmin script.
> 
> 
> Hi Marilyn,
> 
> I'm sorry I wasn't able to go to your talk!  Does anyone have a review or
> notes on what Mariyn talked about?

Danny,

I made a list of the attributes of a good program and then tried to
discuss each attribute, ending with 'Programmer Friendly', the most
important.

I showed some graphs and charts I found on the web.  This part didn't
work so well and needs re-thinking.

When we got to Programmer Friendly, I broke into looking at code.  The
first was a program for translating pig latin, which shows a lot of
cool syntax.

I used that program to show some introspection features.

Next I picked out two characteristics of "pythonic thinking" to teach:
1) bear in mind the difference between assignment and reference.  2)
think in namespaces.

Then came a sysadmin example that showed importing, a try/except, some
calls to manipulate the file system. I'll either cut this part, or
just show snippets.  Or maybe the snippets could become part of the
code comparisons I wish I'd find.

Then I taught object-oriented programming in 17 words: "A class is a
blueprint for a namespace; An object is a namespace constructed from
the blueprint".

Then came an example of a class definition, with unit testing.

Finally came a series of programmer quotes and where-Python-is-used
slides.  Those would have been really nice if my monitor didn't have
an attack of green.  I feel I should to do something entertaining at
the end because it's peoples' lunchtime.

I'm grateful for any thoughts, or pointers to any interesting studies
to report on.  I feel I've been googling in circles.

Marilyn

> 
> 

-- 


From pmelone at stratalight.com  Wed Jan 18 19:37:05 2006
From: pmelone at stratalight.com (Patrick Melone)
Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2006 10:37:05 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] Python contract or full time position in Campbell
	Calif. available
Message-ID: <F626113795D3EB4482E5ACFBD93465126836F5@mailhost.stratalight.com>

StrataLight Communications develops innovative fiber transmission
subsystems for use by carriers in building next-generation long-haul
optical networks and is a leader in the development of transport
solutions that take advantage of spectrally efficient lightwave
modulation. We deliver 40 Gigabit per second fiber transmission
subsystems, sold as OEM products to carriers by optical networking
equipment manufacturers and system integrators.

 

We are growing our SW development team and are currently looking for:

 

SW Python Developer

*         Extensive experience with Python. 

*         BSCS/EE and 3 to 5 years of work experience

*         Hands on experience with electrical and optical test
instruments. 

*         Strong technical (e.g., programming) and analytical skills 

*         Strong working knowledge database schema development and
mySQL 

*         Familiar with Linux operating system 

*         Strong interpersonal skills 

*         Desire to engage in extremely challenging assignments. 

*         Excellent verbal and written communication skills, and strong
collaborative skills. 

*         Self-managed proactive work style and the ability to work
independently and in a team environment. 

*         Strong organizational and problem solving abilities 

 

If interested please respond to jobs at stratalight.com or directly to:

 

Patrick Melone

pmelone at stratalight.com

 

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From epalmore at pixar.com  Thu Jan 19 00:12:00 2006
From: epalmore at pixar.com (Elizabeth Palmore)
Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2006 15:12:00 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] Software Development Engineer in Test @ Pixar
	Animation Studios
Message-ID: <163468E3-5FED-4058-9081-15EBA31B8E5E@pixar.com>

Software Development Engineer in Test
Studio Tools
Pixar Animation Studios
Emeryville, CA

Pixar Animation Studios combines creative and technical artistry to  
create original stories in the medium of computer animation.  Pixar  
has created six of the most successful and beloved animated films of  
all time: Toy Story, A Bug's Life, Toy Story 2, Monsters, Inc.,  
Finding Nemo and The Incredibles.  Pixar has won 18 Academy Awards?  
and its six films have grossed more than $3.2 billion at the  
worldwide box office to date.  The Northern California studio will  
release its next film, Cars, on June 9, 2006.

Summary of Job:

Studio Tools' QA Team is looking for an experienced software engineer  
with a passion for quality to participate in the software quality  
assurance efforts for Pixar?s proprietary in house toolset.

This position requires close collaboration with the engineering staff  
to define, develop, execute, and automate API level test plans and  
test cases. Identify and communicate a strategy for API and other  
testing methodologies, review and report on test progress, status,  
and coverage, and meet test completion and delivery milestones that  
you help define. Work closely with development, project management  
and documentation to coordinate testing responsibilities.

Responsibilities:

? Develop and execute an API testing strategy, using API testing  
methodology and programming language knowledge
? Develop and implement API tests
? Contribute to setting and evaluating milestone criteria such that  
product is released on schedule with high quality
? Design and implement quality processes for a small team of senior  
software developers
? Work closely with the core development teams during all phases of  
the product life cycle
? Evaluate completeness and effectiveness of developer's unit tests

Qualifications:

? 5+ years of experience in QA or software development
? Bachelor's degree in Computer Science or equivalent
? 3+ years of experience testing C/C++ APIs and complex data structures
? Excellent design and coding skills in C/C++ or Java, and a  
scripting language such as Python or Perl
? Knowledge of QA methodology, processes, and tools
? Direct experience testing software under Unix (e.g., Linux or OSX)
? Self-directed, detail-oriented and patient
? Cross platform development experience is preferred (Macintosh,  
Linux)? Experience with 3D graphics applications is a plus (i.e.,  
Maya, SOFTIMAGE)
? Experience with Objective-C/Cocoa is a plus


Please send a resume AND cover letter to crshonda at pixar.com.

Pixar is an Equal Opportunity Employer.

From kdart at kdart.com  Thu Jan 19 10:09:06 2006
From: kdart at kdart.com (Keith Dart)
Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2006 01:09:06 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] Python contract or full time position in Campbell
 Calif. available
In-Reply-To: <F626113795D3EB4482E5ACFBD93465126836F5@mailhost.stratalight.com>
References: <F626113795D3EB4482E5ACFBD93465126836F5@mailhost.stratalight.com>
Message-ID: <20060119010906.05aee7ca@leviathan.kdart.com>

On Wed, 18 Jan 2006 10:37:05 -0800
"Patrick Melone" <pmelone at stratalight.com> wrote:

> StrataLight Communications ...

Just FYI, anyone considering this opportunity should expect to have
their work and person maligned while they are there.



-- 

-- ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
   Keith Dart <kdart at kdart.com>
   public key: ID: F3D288E4
   =====================================================================

From keith at kdart.com  Thu Jan 19 11:16:01 2006
From: keith at kdart.com (Keith Dart)
Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2006 02:16:01 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] AJAX for Python
Message-ID: <20060119021601.4d470145@leviathan.kdart.com>

Greetings all,

I have been reading-up on the AJAX technique for web/browser
applications. The latest DDJ has a good article on it
<http://www.ddj.com/documents/s=9948/ddj0602c/0602c.html>. I was looking
a nice Java implementation of it called DWR
<http://getahead.ltd.uk/ajax>. Now, being the Pythonista that I am I
was wondering if anyone knows of a Python implementation of AJAX? Anyone have any experience working with one?

-- 

-- ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
   Keith Dart <kdart at kdart.com>
   public key: ID: F3D288E4
   =====================================================================

From wescpy at gmail.com  Thu Jan 19 11:19:06 2006
From: wescpy at gmail.com (w chun)
Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2006 02:19:06 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] want to preview your PyCon talk?
Message-ID: <78b3a9580601190219r6cb29191j465834abfb9d9422@mail.gmail.com>

we have room for 3-4 talks at february's meeting in san bruno/SFO. 
one person has signed up so far, and i need to rest of you now.  :-) 
if we don't get enough talks, i'll fill in with mine.  send your 1)
talk title 2) talk abstract, and 3) a short bio to the
baypiggies-owner e-mail address you see above.

it's better to "rush" yourself during rehearsal, so even tho your
PyCon talk is 30min+5 for questions, i'm going to keep it strict at
25min so we can fit 4 talks in.  if only 2 ppl volunteer, and i use
mine, then we can relax it to 30min ea.  the meeting is Feb 9th.

thanks,
-- wesley
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
"Core Python Programming", Prentice Hall, (c)2006,2001
    http://corepython.com

wesley.j.chun :: wescpy-at-gmail.com
cyberweb.consulting : silicon valley, ca
http://cyberwebconsulting.com

From aahz at pythoncraft.com  Thu Jan 19 16:23:54 2006
From: aahz at pythoncraft.com (Aahz)
Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2006 07:23:54 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies]  ADMIN: flamewar policy
Message-ID: <20060119152354.GA25075@panix.com>

<admin hat on>

On Thu, Jan 19, 2006, Keith Dart wrote:
> On Wed, 18 Jan 2006 10:37:05 -0800
> "Patrick Melone" <pmelone at stratalight.com> wrote:
>> 
>> StrataLight Communications ...
> 
> Just FYI, anyone considering this opportunity should expect to have
> their work and person maligned while they are there.

This kind of post is not appropriate for baypiggies.  While we don't
expect that baypiggies will only contain "serious" posts; this list
should still be treated as a professional environment.  Dropping snide
comments like this leads to flamewars, and it makes the list
uncomfortable for other people.

Sorry to be heavy-handed about it, but I want to make sure everyone knows
that followups to Keith's post are off-topic.
-- 
Aahz (aahz at pythoncraft.com)           <*>         http://www.pythoncraft.com/

"19. A language that doesn't affect the way you think about programming,
is not worth knowing."  --Alan Perlis

From ben at groovie.org  Thu Jan 19 16:31:50 2006
From: ben at groovie.org (Ben Bangert)
Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2006 07:31:50 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] AJAX for Python
In-Reply-To: <20060119021601.4d470145@leviathan.kdart.com>
References: <20060119021601.4d470145@leviathan.kdart.com>
Message-ID: <21D1F515-95FB-42EF-883E-B70E3FDD3359@groovie.org>

On Jan 19, 2006, at 2:16 AM, Keith Dart wrote:

> I have been reading-up on the AJAX technique for web/browser
> applications. The latest DDJ has a good article on it
> <http://www.ddj.com/documents/s=9948/ddj0602c/0602c.html>. I was  
> looking
> a nice Java implementation of it called DWR
> <http://getahead.ltd.uk/ajax>. Now, being the Pythonista that I am I
> was wondering if anyone knows of a Python implementation of AJAX?  
> Anyone have any experience working with one?

AJAX is a hot name for some rather basic technology, almost none of  
which is too dependent on any particular server-side technology. This  
makes the question of Python implementation not totally applicable.  
The main thing that helps with AJAX though is when a web framework  
has some way of making it easier to build webapps using AJAX features.

Whether this means packaging a Javascript library and adding some  
webapp enhancements that return JSON (as TurboGears does), or having  
a bunch of helper functions that do common Javascript operations  
reducing the need to learn much Javascript at all (like my port of  
the Rails helpers to Python, called RailsHelpers).

Current Python web frameworks that make AJAX fairly easy, and the  
Javascript lib they use+Python help:
- Aquarium
- Myghty (Custom Javascript)
- TurboGears (MochiKit, JSON)
- Pylons (Prototype/Scriptaculous, RailsHelpers)

I'm sure more of the many Python web frameworks also have some added  
convenience methods for AJAX as well, these are mainly the ones I'm  
aware of. :)

Hope that helps,
Ben

From tungwaiyip at yahoo.com  Thu Jan 19 17:08:18 2006
From: tungwaiyip at yahoo.com (Tung Wai Yip)
Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2006 08:08:18 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] AJAX for Python
In-Reply-To: <20060119021601.4d470145@leviathan.kdart.com>
References: <20060119021601.4d470145@leviathan.kdart.com>
Message-ID: <op.s3mu34sroiuain@smtp.mail.yahoo.com>

A few recommendations from the article itself :)

Dojo (http://dojotoolkit.org/),
GLM from SourceForge (http://sourceforge.net/ projects/glm-ajax/), and
DWR from Getahead (http://getahead.ltd.uk/dwr/).

Most of them are actually javascript libraries. You can use them  
independent of the server side language. A python specific libray  
http://divmod.org/trac/wiki/DivmodNevow was presented here last year.

Wai Yip

> Greetings all,
>
> I have been reading-up on the AJAX technique for web/browser
> applications. The latest DDJ has a good article on it
> <http://www.ddj.com/documents/s=9948/ddj0602c/0602c.html>. I was looking
> a nice Java implementation of it called DWR
> <http://getahead.ltd.uk/ajax>. Now, being the Pythonista that I am I
> was wondering if anyone knows of a Python implementation of AJAX? Anyone  
> have any experience working with one?
>



From kenobi at gmail.com  Thu Jan 19 17:17:40 2006
From: kenobi at gmail.com (Rick Kwan)
Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2006 08:17:40 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] AJAX for Python
In-Reply-To: <20060119021601.4d470145@leviathan.kdart.com>
References: <20060119021601.4d470145@leviathan.kdart.com>
Message-ID: <f0aa69930601190817s29de597fw9033bd8a9ffb279f@mail.gmail.com>

I had a similar dilemma.  At the last meeting, a couple of people
mentioned TurboGears to me.  I'm still checking it out.  But it
includes MochiKit, which itself appears to be pure JavaScript.
The key AJAX file seems to Async.js.  Below are relavant URLs:
    http://www.turbogears.org
    http://www.mochikit.org

--Rick Kwan

On 1/19/06, Keith Dart <keith at kdart.com> wrote:
> Greetings all,
>
> I have been reading-up on the AJAX technique for web/browser
> applications. The latest DDJ has a good article on it
> <http://www.ddj.com/documents/s=9948/ddj0602c/0602c.html>. I was looking
> a nice Java implementation of it called DWR
> <http://getahead.ltd.uk/ajax>. Now, being the Pythonista that I am I
> was wondering if anyone knows of a Python implementation of AJAX? Anyone have any experience working with one?
>
> --
>
> -- ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>    Keith Dart <kdart at kdart.com>
>    public key: ID: F3D288E4
>    =====================================================================
> _______________________________________________
> Baypiggies mailing list
> Baypiggies at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies
>

From keith at kdart.com  Thu Jan 19 20:44:43 2006
From: keith at kdart.com (Keith Dart)
Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2006 11:44:43 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] ADMIN: flamewar policy
In-Reply-To: <20060119152354.GA25075@panix.com>
References: <20060119152354.GA25075@panix.com>
Message-ID: <20060119114443.57f2d067@leviathan.kdart.com>

On Thu, 19 Jan 2006 07:23:54 -0800
Aahz <aahz at pythoncraft.com> wrote:

> > Just FYI, anyone considering this opportunity should expect to have
> > their work and person maligned while they are there.
> 
> This kind of post is not appropriate for baypiggies.  While we don't
> expect that baypiggies will only contain "serious" posts; this list
> should still be treated as a professional environment.  Dropping snide
> comments like this leads to flamewars, and it makes the list
> uncomfortable for other people.

I'm sorry about that. But just for the record, it is not a snide
comment but a fair warning. If anyone wants to know more please send me
a private email.


-- 

-- ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
   Keith Dart <kdart at kdart.com>
   public key: ID: F3D288E4
   =====================================================================

From jjinux at gmail.com  Fri Jan 20 04:58:01 2006
From: jjinux at gmail.com (Shannon -jj Behrens)
Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2006 19:58:01 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] AJAX for Python
In-Reply-To: <f0aa69930601190817s29de597fw9033bd8a9ffb279f@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20060119021601.4d470145@leviathan.kdart.com>
	<f0aa69930601190817s29de597fw9033bd8a9ffb279f@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <c41f67b90601191958n21cc8dc4g7359f7b9ac6a5626@mail.gmail.com>

I talk at length on this subject
<http://jjinux.blogspot.com/2005/10/javascript-quickies.html>.  Here's
an example of my work <http://aquajax.com/>.  By the way, I decided I
prefer Dojo, but I'm not against using multiple libraries if
necessary.

Best Regards,
-jj

On 1/19/06, Rick Kwan <kenobi at gmail.com> wrote:
> I had a similar dilemma.  At the last meeting, a couple of people
> mentioned TurboGears to me.  I'm still checking it out.  But it
> includes MochiKit, which itself appears to be pure JavaScript.
> The key AJAX file seems to Async.js.  Below are relavant URLs:
>     http://www.turbogears.org
>     http://www.mochikit.org
>
> --Rick Kwan
>
> On 1/19/06, Keith Dart <keith at kdart.com> wrote:
> > Greetings all,
> >
> > I have been reading-up on the AJAX technique for web/browser
> > applications. The latest DDJ has a good article on it
> > <http://www.ddj.com/documents/s=9948/ddj0602c/0602c.html>. I was looking
> > a nice Java implementation of it called DWR
> > <http://getahead.ltd.uk/ajax>. Now, being the Pythonista that I am I
> > was wondering if anyone knows of a Python implementation of AJAX? Anyone have any experience working with one?
> >
> > --
> >
> > -- ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> >    Keith Dart <kdart at kdart.com>
> >    public key: ID: F3D288E4
> >    =====================================================================
> > _______________________________________________
> > Baypiggies mailing list
> > Baypiggies at python.org
> > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies
> >
> _______________________________________________
> Baypiggies mailing list
> Baypiggies at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies
>


--
Law is much too important to be left to politicians, lawyers, and celebrities.

From rbradley at projectway.com  Fri Jan 20 06:46:07 2006
From: rbradley at projectway.com (Rand Bradley)
Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2006 21:46:07 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] SDForum Dynamic Languages: Python event next week
Message-ID: <3a3f04f50601192146r501dc3ceh55a6816cfe52048d@mail.gmail.com>

SDForum is holding a half-day Python event next week in Santa Clara on
Wednesday, January 25 from 8:30am - 1:00pm. This should be an exciting
event, with keynotes by Guido van Rossum and Greg Stein.

The cost is only $15 if you sign up at http://www.sdforum.org/python and use
the following discount code: python2006

Here is the agenda for the event.

8:30am - 9:00am Registration and Continental Breakfast

9:00am - 9:45am Keynote: Guido van Rossum, Creator of Python

10:00am - 10:45am Python and the Enterprise
Panelists:
Alex Martelli, Technical Lead, Google and Author Python in a Nutshell
Munwar Shariff, CTO, Cofounder, Cignex

Moderator:
Alexandra Weber Morales

11:00am - 11:45am Building your startup using Python
Panelists:
Steve Kirsch, Founder, Chairman and CEO, Propel
David Marks, Cofounder, CEO/President, Loomia
Peter Yared, Founder, CEO, ActiveGrid

Moderator:
Braham Cohen, Creator of BitTorrent and founder of BitTorrent, Inc.

12:00pm - 12:45pm
Keynote: Greg Stein, Engineering Manager, Python at Google


Location
Network Meeting Center
5201 Great America Parkway
Santa Clara, CA 95054
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From keith at kdart.com  Fri Jan 20 08:04:13 2006
From: keith at kdart.com (Keith Dart)
Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2006 23:04:13 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] AJAX for Python
In-Reply-To: <c41f67b90601191958n21cc8dc4g7359f7b9ac6a5626@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20060119021601.4d470145@leviathan.kdart.com>
	<f0aa69930601190817s29de597fw9033bd8a9ffb279f@mail.gmail.com>
	<c41f67b90601191958n21cc8dc4g7359f7b9ac6a5626@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20060119230413.359ce896@leviathan.kdart.com>

On Thu, 19 Jan 2006 19:58:01 -0800
Shannon -jj Behrens <jjinux at gmail.com> wrote:

> I talk at length on this subject
> <http://jjinux.blogspot.com/2005/10/javascript-quickies.html>.  Here's
> an example of my work <http://aquajax.com/>.  By the way, I decided I
> prefer Dojo, but I'm not against using multiple libraries if
> necessary.

Thanks to you and everyone else that responded. This is good stuff. I
should have known there was a lot going on in this realm already. 

-- 

-- ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
   Keith Dart <kdart at kdart.com>
   public key: ID: F3D288E4
   =====================================================================

From chris at noncombatant.org  Sun Jan 22 01:05:06 2006
From: chris at noncombatant.org (Chris Palmer)
Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2006 16:05:06 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] stat.ST_BLKSIZE?
Message-ID: <20060122000506.GB11590@nodewarrior.org>

Hi there, I've got a random question. Why doesn't os.stat return the
filesystem's block size? Is there some other way to find that out in
Python? Googling the obvious ("python stat block size", "python stat
st_blksize") didn't reveal anything. Thanks.


-- 
http://www.noncombatant.org/
http://www.boshuda.com/


From guido at python.org  Sun Jan 22 02:34:21 2006
From: guido at python.org (Guido van Rossum)
Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2006 17:34:21 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] stat.ST_BLKSIZE?
In-Reply-To: <20060122000506.GB11590@nodewarrior.org>
References: <20060122000506.GB11590@nodewarrior.org>
Message-ID: <ca471dc20601211734y49c0fadfnc19353982fb4ba8c@mail.gmail.com>

On 1/21/06, Chris Palmer <chris at noncombatant.org> wrote:
> Hi there, I've got a random question. Why doesn't os.stat return the
> filesystem's block size? Is there some other way to find that out in
> Python? Googling the obvious ("python stat block size", "python stat
> st_blksize") didn't reveal anything. Thanks.

Doesn't this work for you? It works for me (Linux Red Hat, version 7.2 or so.)

$ python2.2
Python 2.2.3+ (#94, Jun  4 2003, 08:24:18)
[GCC 2.96 20000731 (Red Hat Linux 7.3 2.96-113)] on linux2
Type "help", "copyright", "credits" or "license" for more information.
[startup.py ...]
[startup.py done]
>>> import os
>>> os.stat(".").st_blksize
4096
>>>

The value doesn't get returned as part of the 10-tuple, but it is
available through the (newer) attribute-based API, as long as the
underlying OS makes st_blksize available in its struct stat.

--
--Guido van Rossum (home page: http://www.python.org/~guido/)

From chris at noncombatant.org  Sun Jan 22 02:50:25 2006
From: chris at noncombatant.org (Chris Palmer)
Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2006 17:50:25 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] stat.ST_BLKSIZE?
In-Reply-To: <ca471dc20601211734y49c0fadfnc19353982fb4ba8c@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20060122000506.GB11590@nodewarrior.org>
	<ca471dc20601211734y49c0fadfnc19353982fb4ba8c@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20060122015024.GA11823@nodewarrior.org>

Guido van Rossum writes:

> The value doesn't get returned as part of the 10-tuple, but it is
> available through the (newer) attribute-based API, as long as the
> underlying OS makes st_blksize available in its struct stat.

That does indeed work for me (Python 2.3.5 on Mac OS X). Wow, thanks!

Now I feel dumb. I see now that I could have learned about this feature
from <http://python.org/doc/2.4.2/lib/os-file-dir.html>.

Will this API ever be cleaned up, having only one return value with all
items visible? It's confusing to show a tuple but to also have a secret
object with more stuff in it. To me, the natural choice of return value
is a dictionary containing everything the underlying OS provides.

Anyway, thanks again.


-- 
http://www.noncombatant.org/
http://www.boshuda.com/


From guido at python.org  Sun Jan 22 03:28:36 2006
From: guido at python.org (Guido van Rossum)
Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2006 18:28:36 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] stat.ST_BLKSIZE?
In-Reply-To: <20060122015024.GA11823@nodewarrior.org>
References: <20060122000506.GB11590@nodewarrior.org>
	<ca471dc20601211734y49c0fadfnc19353982fb4ba8c@mail.gmail.com>
	<20060122015024.GA11823@nodewarrior.org>
Message-ID: <ca471dc20601211828k577dbde6xd9de1507394deab@mail.gmail.com>

On 1/21/06, Chris Palmer <chris at noncombatant.org> wrote:
> Will this API ever be cleaned up, having only one return value with all
> items visible? It's confusing to show a tuple but to also have a secret
> object with more stuff in it. To me, the natural choice of return value
> is a dictionary containing everything the underlying OS provides.

We'll clean it up in 3.0. Until then, we can't, for backwards
compatibility reasons that should be obvious.

As far as the "ideal" API, I much prefer attributes over a dict -- why
should I have to type quotes and square brackets when a dot will do?
There's always the introspection API (e.g. dir()) if for some obscure
reason you need the list of all supported names.

--
--Guido van Rossum (home page: http://www.python.org/~guido/)

From warren at delsci.com  Sun Jan 22 21:00:57 2006
From: warren at delsci.com (Warren DeLano)
Date: Sun, 22 Jan 2006 12:00:57 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] stat.ST_BLKSIZE?
Message-ID: <0DB8D1752501D54A89A4725BD9DFE6F406915D@GLOBE.delsci.local>

> why should I have to type quotes and square brackets 
> when a dot will do?

What about pickling/unpickling convenience?  Dictionaries don't have
class definition dependencies, and can thus be unpickled (anywhere &
anytime) without reference to external Python modules.

Or is there such a thing as a classless Python object that would combine
the syntactic convenience of attributes with the independent marshalling
of a dictionary? 

(assuming of course that the container holds only builtin types, not
arbitrary objects).

Cheers,
Warren

--
Warren L. DeLano, Ph.D.                     
Principal Scientist

. DeLano Scientific LLC  
. 400 Oyster Point Blvd., Suite 213           
. South San Francisco, CA 94080 USA   
. Biz:(650)-872-0942  Tech:(650)-872-0834     
. Fax:(650)-872-0273  Cell:(650)-346-1154
. mailto:warren at delsci.com      
 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: baypiggies-bounces at python.org 
> [mailto:baypiggies-bounces at python.org] On Behalf Of Guido van Rossum
> Sent: Saturday, January 21, 2006 6:38 PM
> To: Chris Palmer
> Cc: baypiggies at python.org
> Subject: Re: [Baypiggies] stat.ST_BLKSIZE?
> 
> On 1/21/06, Chris Palmer <chris at noncombatant.org> wrote:
> > Will this API ever be cleaned up, having only one return value with 
> > all items visible? It's confusing to show a tuple but to 
> also have a 
> > secret object with more stuff in it. To me, the natural choice of 
> > return value is a dictionary containing everything the 
> underlying OS provides.
> 
> We'll clean it up in 3.0. Until then, we can't, for backwards 
> compatibility reasons that should be obvious.
> 
> As far as the "ideal" API, I much prefer attributes over a 
> dict -- why should I have to type quotes and square brackets 
> when a dot will do?
> There's always the introspection API (e.g. dir()) if for some 
> obscure reason you need the list of all supported names.
> 
> --
> --Guido van Rossum (home page: http://www.python.org/~guido/) 
> _______________________________________________
> Baypiggies mailing list
> Baypiggies at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies
> 
> 
> 
> 

From keith at kdart.com  Mon Jan 23 00:20:58 2006
From: keith at kdart.com (Keith Dart)
Date: Sun, 22 Jan 2006 15:20:58 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] stat.ST_BLKSIZE?
In-Reply-To: <0DB8D1752501D54A89A4725BD9DFE6F406915D@GLOBE.delsci.local>
References: <0DB8D1752501D54A89A4725BD9DFE6F406915D@GLOBE.delsci.local>
Message-ID: <20060122152058.71e6086e@leviathan.kdart.com>

On Sun, 22 Jan 2006 12:00:57 -0800
"Warren DeLano" <warren at delsci.com> wrote:

> Or is there such a thing as a classless Python object that would
> combine the syntactic convenience of attributes with the independent
> marshalling of a dictionary? 

I have created such a thing. Attached is the source file.


-- 

-- ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
   Keith Dart <keith at kdart.com>
   public key: ID: 19017044
   <http://www.kdart.com/~keith/>
   =====================================================================
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From cappy2112 at gmail.com  Mon Jan 23 21:31:01 2006
From: cappy2112 at gmail.com (Tony C)
Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2006 12:31:01 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] 6 Month contract position in SanJose - reply to
	javier@erginc.com ONLY
Message-ID: <8249c4ac0601231231v53496a8dg5faf754a10a11c84@mail.gmail.com>

Reply to javier at erginc.com ONLY

We are looking for someone who has been involved with ASIC diagnostics with
experience with the following:



"              Strong embedded programming and C skills

"              Prior experience in ASIC diagnostics and FPGA emulation

"              Verification of Networking ASIC Blocks and ASIC Debug
experience

"              Experience writing tests in "C" and Perl scripting to verify
ASIC Blocks

"           Experience in USB, PCI, PCIe system interfaces

"           Ability to use JTAG based debug skills with Greenhills tools

"           Experiencing use of oscilloscope/logic analyzer, USB analyzer
and PCIe analyzer tools



Additional experience:



"           Perl and Phyton for test script generation

"           Windows MFC "C" programming skills

"               Windows test environment experience



Regards,



Javier Diaz

Embedded Resource Group

San Jose, CA

408-260-2600 x 223

408-260-2646 Fax

javier at erginc.com
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From jjinux at gmail.com  Thu Jan 26 02:26:03 2006
From: jjinux at gmail.com (Shannon -jj Behrens)
Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2006 17:26:03 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] Embedded python SBC?
In-Reply-To: <43C42AE4.5060404@neuralintegrator.com>
References: <43C42AE4.5060404@neuralintegrator.com>
Message-ID: <c41f67b90601251726v2b5e1d5dh965b725fd5596ec4@mail.gmail.com>

http://www.projectblackdog.com/ ?

On 1/10/06, Ken Seehof <kseehof at neuralintegrator.com> wrote:
> I'm looking for a SBC (single board computer) capable of running
> embedded Linux and Python programs (for http processing and hardware
> control).
>
> Under $200/unit
> Ethernet
> About a dozen TTL digital I/O lines
> Speed is irrelevant, low power preferred
> Small form factor preferred
>
> Thanks,
> - Ken
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Baypiggies mailing list
> Baypiggies at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies
>

From jjinux at gmail.com  Thu Jan 26 04:08:44 2006
From: jjinux at gmail.com (Shannon -jj Behrens)
Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2006 19:08:44 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] {Baypiggies] Python support in ubuntu
In-Reply-To: <7.0.0.16.0.20060108090934.01f9d690@tcapp.com>
References: <BAY108-F16C3AD185D9AED49D452158F2F0@phx.gbl>
	<79810CAB-3B50-4CB7-9C79-8738289211D1@ulaluma.com>
	<c41f67b90601072131y79f85e3fh9417769bddeb4b5f@mail.gmail.com>
	<7.0.0.16.0.20060108090934.01f9d690@tcapp.com>
Message-ID: <c41f67b90601251908l62d033d2lcaf030f511478737@mail.gmail.com>

On 1/8/06, Tony Cappellini <tony at tcapp.com> wrote:
> >Just so the Fedora guys don't feel left out, remember that the
> >installer and all the system configuration tools in Fedora are written
> >using PyGTK.  It's nice :)
> >
> >It's been my understanding that Red Hat's (pre-Fedora) installer was
> >written in Python also.
>
> Python 1.52 (I think) always installed by default, so the installer could run.

It's 2.4.1 these days, so they must have finally broken the ties to 1.5.2 :-/

-jj

From jxd6 at hotmail.com  Mon Jan 30 08:22:05 2006
From: jxd6 at hotmail.com (John J. Dooley)
Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2006 23:22:05 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] [baypiggies] Python Source Browser
Message-ID: <BAY108-F10154F8527B4B21C82AD688F090@phx.gbl>

What do python programmers use to browse source code? I found a project I 
was interested in (paramiko) and wanted to get a quick overview of the 
modules, classes, dependcies and trace from method to method.

The python.org wiki had lists of development IDE and editors ( I had ignored 
the wiki upto this point - big mistake) and that gave me a list programs to 
start with. If it was available on my unbuntu 5.10 system, I gave it a try. 
Here is my quick impression:

   source navigator- quirky UI. Could not figure out how to get it to list 
classes and mehods in classes.I used this for C++ in the past and got it to 
work. I supposedly had a libray for python but perhps it was limited in 
function. Does anyone use this?

  bicycle repair - seems to want gvim with python scripting, or emacs, or 
IDLE. I use straight vim and didn't want to have to upgrade VIM to try it 
out or learn the others. Anyone think its worth the trouble?

  PyPe - I must of hit some wrong buttons becuase it would disappear before 
I could see what it could do.

Pida - I was confused by the installation requirements and quickly skipped 
over it.

drpython - could open a directory of python modules and bring up the 
class/methods. Source attractively highted. Seems to do all the basic stuff, 
well. Kind of simple and stark.

SPE(Stani'sPython Editor) -  quicker than DrPython, attractive source 
formating, UML display, easy class navigation.

I removed all of the above but SPE and DrPython. SPE seems the most 
promising.

In short, I Just needs a source browser that allows me to make a quick 
analysis of other people's python source code packages - look at the source, 
see the class structure in navigate to module, class quickly. For my own 
development, I use VIM.

SPE looks pretty reasonable. Is there any other worth looking at? Should I 
take a further look at the ones I rejected?



From cappy2112 at gmail.com  Mon Jan 30 08:43:20 2006
From: cappy2112 at gmail.com (Tony C)
Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2006 23:43:20 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] [baypiggies] Python Source Browser
In-Reply-To: <BAY108-F10154F8527B4B21C82AD688F090@phx.gbl>
References: <BAY108-F10154F8527B4B21C82AD688F090@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <8249c4ac0601292343r23b3a70eo706b30b2c401f41f@mail.gmail.com>

scite works pretty well

On 1/29/06, John J. Dooley <jxd6 at hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> What do python programmers use to browse source code? I found a project I
> was interested in (paramiko) and wanted to get a quick overview of the
> modules, classes, dependcies and trace from method to method.
>
>
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From keith at kdart.com  Mon Jan 30 09:31:23 2006
From: keith at kdart.com (Keith Dart)
Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2006 00:31:23 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] [baypiggies] Python Source Browser
In-Reply-To: <BAY108-F10154F8527B4B21C82AD688F090@phx.gbl>
References: <BAY108-F10154F8527B4B21C82AD688F090@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <20060130003123.1aa0a369@leviathan.kdart.com>

John J. Dooley wrote the following on 2006-01-29 at 23:22 PST:
===
> What do python programmers use to browse source code? I found a
> project I was interested in (paramiko) and wanted to get a quick
> overview of the modules, classes, dependcies and trace from method to
> method.

===

I use Gvim plus ctags. :-) Well, I also have customized vim modules to
help with this. (e.g. ";nc" means go to next class.).


-- 

-- ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
   Keith Dart <keith at kdart.com>
   public key: ID: 19017044
   <http://www.kdart.com/~keith/>
   =====================================================================
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From kael.fischer at gmail.com  Mon Jan 30 19:23:53 2006
From: kael.fischer at gmail.com (Kael Fischer)
Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2006 10:23:53 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] [baypiggies] Python Source Browser
In-Reply-To: <BAY108-F10154F8527B4B21C82AD688F090@phx.gbl>
References: <BAY108-F10154F8527B4B21C82AD688F090@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <cd02cc220601301023x6a8baafbpb8184edc173a1ea4@mail.gmail.com>

I use emacs (or xemacs) with the 'speedbar.'  The emacs python mode parses
the code in to classes and methods and presents them on the menu and as a
tree in the speedbar pane.  Of course the code is properly highlighted and
all that.  I can definitely recommend that setup.

I have looked at a lot of options, like the ones you mention.  For me having
a stable system that runs on unix/linux/mac/windows with a minimum of
trouble and good functionality kept driving me away from newer projects like
SPE and drpython and toward add-ons to more mature programs like
[x]emacs/vi[m].  The emacs speedbar source browser thingamajig is just the
ticket for me.  My only reservation is that while the RCS/CVS support is
very good, subversion doesn't seem to be hooked in to the emacs world yet.
It's probably out there but the CVS/RCS stuff "just works".

I also use pydoc quite a bit

-Kael

--
Kael Fischer, Ph.D
DeRisi Lab - Univ. Of California San Francisco
415-514-4320
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From jjinux at gmail.com  Mon Jan 30 20:51:18 2006
From: jjinux at gmail.com (Shannon -jj Behrens)
Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2006 11:51:18 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] looking for a QA person
Message-ID: <c41f67b90601301151k19562efgffdebd46cf1ecd1b@mail.gmail.com>

Hi,

IronPort is looking for a QA guy.  The code is all in Python, but
prior knowledge of Python is not required. 
<http://ironport.com/company/qa_engineer_reporting.html>.  Slightly
off topic, but we're also desperate for two usability engineers. 
We're so desperate, that I'd be happy to split the referral bonus if
any of you know one.  (Yes, the interface is written in Python ;)

Thanks!
-jj

From jxd6 at hotmail.com  Mon Jan 30 21:49:50 2006
From: jxd6 at hotmail.com (John J. Dooley)
Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2006 12:49:50 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] [baypiggies]IDE Usage
Message-ID: <BAY108-F858F629071BD3C27B5DA48F090@phx.gbl>

While checking out some of the source browsers I came across this 
interesting comparison of Python IDEs:

http://spyced.blogspot.com/2005/09/review-of-6-python-ides.html

It occured to me that talk of tools may be considered off topic for 
baypiggies. Everyone has been won over by the langauage and the relevant 
topics are perhaps how should Python be "feature" tuned and what are the 
latest and greatest libraries.

On the other hand, some may consider tools be a personal decision(and 
bringing them up causes flames and other irritations). Perhaps, the choice 
of tools for Python is no different than for Perl, TCL, fortran...

However, for some the language is tied to the tools, like Visual C++, 
Borland C++, Eclipse Java, ..... Lack of similar, stable tools may seem (to 
these spoiled and weak souls) like lack of maturity for the language.

Is this an important issue for Python and baypiggies? Is there (or needs to 
be) a Python Tool users group?



From aahz at pythoncraft.com  Mon Jan 30 22:11:16 2006
From: aahz at pythoncraft.com (Aahz)
Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2006 13:11:16 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] IDE Usage
In-Reply-To: <BAY108-F858F629071BD3C27B5DA48F090@phx.gbl>
References: <BAY108-F858F629071BD3C27B5DA48F090@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <20060130211115.GA24875@panix.com>

<admin hat on>

On Mon, Jan 30, 2006, John J. Dooley wrote:
>
> It occured to me that talk of tools may be considered off topic for 
> baypiggies. 

Nope.  Essentially, anything that would be on-topic for comp.lang.python
should be considered welcome here.  So far, there hasn't been any need
for more stringent rules; as long as people keep things to a professional
level, that should continue.  (With the one exception of the rules for
job postings, which are informed by unfortunate experience in many venues
over the years.)

This doesn't mean small amounts of off-topic posts are verboten, BTW.
We're also a social group, and some amount of chatter is to be expected
(and even welcome to a limited extent).  Just try to be considerate of
other people's time.
-- 
Aahz (aahz at pythoncraft.com)           <*>         http://www.pythoncraft.com/

"19. A language that doesn't affect the way you think about programming,
is not worth knowing."  --Alan Perlis

From larryt at winfirst.com  Mon Jan 30 11:41:09 2006
From: larryt at winfirst.com (larryt at winfirst.com)
Date: 30 Jan 2006 10:41:09 +0000
Subject: [Baypiggies] [baypiggies] Python Source Browser
In-Reply-To: <cd02cc220601301023x6a8baafbpb8184edc173a1ea4@mail.gmail.com>
References: <BAY108-F10154F8527B4B21C82AD688F090@phx.gbl>
	<cd02cc220601301023x6a8baafbpb8184edc173a1ea4@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <x7vew22e2i.fsf@winfirst.com>


Kael Fischer <kael.fischer at gmail.com> writes:

> I use emacs (or xemacs) with the 'speedbar.'  The emacs python mode parses
> the code in to classes and methods and presents them on the menu and as a
> tree in the speedbar pane.  Of course the code is properly highlighted and
> all that.  I can definitely recommend that setup.

Thanks for the reminder.  That works great.  The necessary python mode
comes in the bicyclerepairman dstro mentioned in the original post,
but I don't know if its the latest.  

For installing bicyclerepairman, note that some files in the included
Pymacs-0.20 directory contain characters that may not be supported on
some systems (like mine).  Just strip out the offending lines.  

-larry


From jxd6 at hotmail.com  Tue Jan 31 04:00:09 2006
From: jxd6 at hotmail.com (John J. Dooley)
Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2006 19:00:09 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] IDE Usage
In-Reply-To: <Pine.NEB.4.63.0601301453520.633@S.culver.net>
Message-ID: <BAY108-F35E01EEE544DEEE8E21A848F080@phx.gbl>

I assume its the$179 version and not the $35 version wing that gets the 
raves. Code browsing, and code collapse come with the professional version 
and not the personal version, if I read right.

Is it the professional wing that gets the high marks and the personal wing 
one too dumbed down?

>From the survey I referenced in yesterday's IDE review e-mail, I think it 
said that open source developers get the (proffesional?) wing for free. I am 
not an open source contributor (yet) so would not qualify for the discount.

Perhaps, baypiggies could sell wingware on getting a discount for their 
members who could return the favor by giving reviews - kind of like 
o'reilly's books? Maybe someone could button hole wingware at PyCon?

Even if most went back to their old tools, they might still spread a kind 
word after taking it for a test drive. Who better to make a recommendation 
to a new Python user than a baypiggies member?



From jxd6 at hotmail.com  Tue Jan 31 06:34:07 2006
From: jxd6 at hotmail.com (John J. Dooley)
Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2006 21:34:07 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] [baypiggies] Python Source Browser
In-Reply-To: <20060130003123.1aa0a369@leviathan.kdart.com>
Message-ID: <BAY108-F1B84D9522E23D6245C47F8F080@phx.gbl>

I did not know that ctags supported Python. I just installed 
taglist/exuberant in vim and love it. It is probably slicker in gvim, but 
works well in vanila vim.

This is perfect for my development work. Thanks for suggesting it.

>From: Keith Dart <keith at kdart.com>
>To: "John J. Dooley" <jxd6 at hotmail.com>
>CC: baypiggies at python.org
>Subject: Re: [Baypiggies] [baypiggies] Python Source Browser
>Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2006 00:31:23 -0800
>
>John J. Dooley wrote the following on 2006-01-29 at 23:22 PST:
>===
> > What do python programmers use to browse source code? I found a
> > project I was interested in (paramiko) and wanted to get a quick
> > overview of the modules, classes, dependcies and trace from method to
> > method.
>
>===
>
>I use Gvim plus ctags. :-) Well, I also have customized vim modules to
>help with this. (e.g. ";nc" means go to next class.).
>
>
>--
>
>-- ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>    Keith Dart <keith at kdart.com>
>    public key: ID: 19017044
>    <http://www.kdart.com/~keith/>
>    =====================================================================


><< signature.asc >>



From jjinux at gmail.com  Tue Jan 31 18:42:36 2006
From: jjinux at gmail.com (Shannon -jj Behrens)
Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2006 09:42:36 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] [baypiggies] Python Source Browser
In-Reply-To: <BAY108-F1B84D9522E23D6245C47F8F080@phx.gbl>
References: <20060130003123.1aa0a369@leviathan.kdart.com>
	<BAY108-F1B84D9522E23D6245C47F8F080@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <c41f67b90601310942o528fea7ck2b34405a628d0fc6@mail.gmail.com>

ctags is the number 1 plugin for Vim.  +1 :)

-jj

On 1/30/06, John J. Dooley <jxd6 at hotmail.com> wrote:
> I did not know that ctags supported Python. I just installed
> taglist/exuberant in vim and love it. It is probably slicker in gvim, but
> works well in vanila vim.
>
> This is perfect for my development work. Thanks for suggesting it.
>
> >From: Keith Dart <keith at kdart.com>
> >To: "John J. Dooley" <jxd6 at hotmail.com>
> >CC: baypiggies at python.org
> >Subject: Re: [Baypiggies] [baypiggies] Python Source Browser
> >Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2006 00:31:23 -0800
> >
> >John J. Dooley wrote the following on 2006-01-29 at 23:22 PST:
> >===
> > > What do python programmers use to browse source code? I found a
> > > project I was interested in (paramiko) and wanted to get a quick
> > > overview of the modules, classes, dependcies and trace from method to
> > > method.
> >
> >===
> >
> >I use Gvim plus ctags. :-) Well, I also have customized vim modules to
> >help with this. (e.g. ";nc" means go to next class.).
> >
> >
> >--
> >
> >-- ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> >    Keith Dart <keith at kdart.com>
> >    public key: ID: 19017044
> >    <http://www.kdart.com/~keith/>
> >    =====================================================================
>
>
> ><< signature.asc >>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Baypiggies mailing list
> Baypiggies at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies
>

From aleax at google.com  Tue Jan 31 19:13:00 2006
From: aleax at google.com (Alex Martelli)
Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2006 10:13:00 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] IDE Usage
In-Reply-To: <BAY108-F35E01EEE544DEEE8E21A848F080@phx.gbl>
References: <Pine.NEB.4.63.0601301453520.633@S.culver.net>
	<BAY108-F35E01EEE544DEEE8E21A848F080@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <55dc209b0601311013w38b6ee6bq5e7608ee6e70a73f@mail.google.com>

On 1/30/06, John J. Dooley <jxd6 at hotmail.com> wrote:
> I assume its the$179 version and not the $35 version wing that gets the
> raves. Code browsing, and code collapse come with the professional version
> and not the personal version, if I read right.
>
> Is it the professional wing that gets the high marks and the personal wing
> one too dumbed down?

Never tried the cheap version, sorry -- nor the editing aspects of the
pro one either, just its powerful debugging facilities (for editing, I
still prefer gvim + exhuberant ctags; for debugging, once in a while,
one may get into a situation where tried and true "insert print here"
fails to reveal the truth...;-).


> Perhaps, baypiggies could sell wingware on getting a discount for their
> members who could return the favor by giving reviews - kind of like
> o'reilly's books? Maybe someone could button hole wingware at PyCon?
>
> Even if most went back to their old tools, they might still spread a kind
> word after taking it for a test drive. Who better to make a recommendation
> to a new Python user than a baypiggies member?

Quite a reasonable idea.  I' not going to Pycon (sigh) but Deibel
(head of Wing) no doubt is, and he's very open to suggestions and new
ideas.  One issue I see is, how does one prove "baypyggies membership"
for the purpose of getting the discount?  It's not as if we have a
membership roster or cards or anything.  And of course other local
Python SIGs might take it amiss if _their_ members didn't get similar
discounts.  Maybe we need a national "umbrella organization" for all
kind of Python interest groups &c, which for some nominal fee (to
cover postage &c) would issue a membership card entitling members to
whatever discounts vendor-sponsors (such as Wing) may negotiate (if
so, I'm definitely not the right person to try and organize one, but
my wife Anna, who IS going to Pycon, and has a knack for grassroot
organizations, might be more suitable...).


Alex

From iiourov at yahoo.com  Tue Jan 31 20:32:31 2006
From: iiourov at yahoo.com (Ilia Iourovitski)
Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2006 11:32:31 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Baypiggies] [baypiggies] Python Source Browser
In-Reply-To: <BAY108-F1B84D9522E23D6245C47F8F080@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <20060131193231.62106.qmail@web53206.mail.yahoo.com>

I think JEdit has the best support for Python/Jython including debugger.
Runs  on Windows/Unix/OS X because written in Java.
Has Ctags plugin if sidekick is not enough.



"John J. Dooley" <jxd6 at hotmail.com> wrote: I did not know that ctags supported Python. I just installed 
taglist/exuberant in vim and love it. It is probably slicker in gvim, but 
works well in vanila vim.

This is perfect for my development work. Thanks for suggesting it.

>From: Keith Dart 
>To: "John J. Dooley" 
>CC: baypiggies at python.org
>Subject: Re: [Baypiggies] [baypiggies] Python Source Browser
>Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2006 00:31:23 -0800
>
>John J. Dooley wrote the following on 2006-01-29 at 23:22 PST:
>===
> > What do python programmers use to browse source code? I found a
> > project I was interested in (paramiko) and wanted to get a quick
> > overview of the modules, classes, dependcies and trace from method to
> > method.
>
>===
>
>I use Gvim plus ctags. :-) Well, I also have customized vim modules to
>help with this. (e.g. ";nc" means go to next class.).
>
>
>--
>
>-- ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>    Keith Dart 
>    public key: ID: 19017044
>    
>    =====================================================================


><< signature.asc >>


_______________________________________________
Baypiggies mailing list
Baypiggies at python.org
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/baypiggies


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From jjinux at gmail.com  Tue Jan 31 21:36:07 2006
From: jjinux at gmail.com (Shannon -jj Behrens)
Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2006 12:36:07 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] Everything Your Professor Failed to Tell You About
	Functional Programming
Message-ID: <c41f67b90601311236k3a62d7b6m14278c3521e2af22@mail.gmail.com>

Shameless plug:

I wrote an article for "Linux Journal" called "Everything Your
Professor Failed to Tell You About Functional Programming".  It's
mainly about Haskell, but I thought I'd post it here because a) it's a
fun read b) a few of the examples are in Python.  I remain a Python
fan(atic).  Hopefully some of you will enjoy the article.

http://www.linuxjournal.com/article/8850

From dyoo at hkn.eecs.berkeley.edu  Tue Jan 31 22:13:16 2006
From: dyoo at hkn.eecs.berkeley.edu (Danny Yoo)
Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2006 13:13:16 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Baypiggies] Everything Your Professor Failed to Tell You About
 Functional Programming
In-Reply-To: <c41f67b90601311236k3a62d7b6m14278c3521e2af22@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0601311257510.13153-100000@hkn.eecs.berkeley.edu>



On Tue, 31 Jan 2006, Shannon -jj Behrens wrote:

> I wrote an article for "Linux Journal" called "Everything Your Professor
> Failed to Tell You About Functional Programming".  It's mainly about
> Haskell, but I thought I'd post it here because a) it's a fun read b) a
> few of the examples are in Python.  I remain a Python fan(atic).
> Hopefully some of you will enjoy the article.

Thanks for writing this article!  It looks nice and meaty, and I've always
wanted to learn more about monads.

(Quick note on the reference to NULL in SQL; C.J. Date definitely doesn't
like NULL at all; his O'Reilly book "Database in Depth" says that NULLs
break the relational model and the relational algebra; the violations that
NULL presents in SQL makes the algebra nonsensical.  So in a sense, NULLs
do cause his his universe to come crashing down.  *grin*)


From jjinux at gmail.com  Tue Jan 31 22:17:59 2006
From: jjinux at gmail.com (Shannon -jj Behrens)
Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2006 13:17:59 -0800
Subject: [Baypiggies] Everything Your Professor Failed to Tell You About
	Functional Programming
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0601311257510.13153-100000@hkn.eecs.berkeley.edu>
References: <c41f67b90601311236k3a62d7b6m14278c3521e2af22@mail.gmail.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.44.0601311257510.13153-100000@hkn.eecs.berkeley.edu>
Message-ID: <c41f67b90601311317m33c2f396q49ed4172af7abcb5@mail.gmail.com>

On 1/31/06, Danny Yoo <dyoo at hkn.eecs.berkeley.edu> wrote:
> On Tue, 31 Jan 2006, Shannon -jj Behrens wrote:
>
> > I wrote an article for "Linux Journal" called "Everything Your Professor
> > Failed to Tell You About Functional Programming".  It's mainly about
> > Haskell, but I thought I'd post it here because a) it's a fun read b) a
> > few of the examples are in Python.  I remain a Python fan(atic).
> > Hopefully some of you will enjoy the article.
>
> Thanks for writing this article!  It looks nice and meaty, and I've always
> wanted to learn more about monads.
>
> (Quick note on the reference to NULL in SQL; C.J. Date definitely doesn't
> like NULL at all; his O'Reilly book "Database in Depth" says that NULLs
> break the relational model and the relational algebra; the violations that
> NULL presents in SQL makes the algebra nonsensical.  So in a sense, NULLs
> do cause his his universe to come crashing down.  *grin*)

Nice ;) hahahaha

Thanks a lot for the feedback!

-jj