[python-advocacy] Fwd: [dfwPython] PHP more satisfying than Python? Splutter!

Brad Allen bradallen137 at gmail.com
Sat Mar 7 15:23:39 CET 2009


Forwarding this conversation to the Python Advocacy list...

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Subject: [dfwPython] PHP more satisfying than Python? Splutter!
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From: ** <martin at martinthomas.net>
Date: Thu, Mar 5, 2009 at 8:53 AM
To: dfwpython <dfwpython at dfwpython.org>


I found this article while browsing the Register ("biting the hand that
feeds IT") and did a double-take:

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/03/05/evans_data_gentlemen_prefer_php/

Any thoughts?

//M

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From: *Brad Allen* <brad at allendev.com>
Date: Thu, Mar 5, 2009 at 10:22 AM
To: martin at martinthomas.net
Cc: dfwpython <dfwpython at dfwpython.org>


I guess they didn't ask any developers working in engineering, scientific
computing, system administration, health care industry, computer science
instruction, etc. :-)

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From: *John Taber* <john at tigernassau.com>
Date: Thu, Mar 5, 2009 at 8:50 PM
To: Brad Allen <brad at allendev.com>
Cc: dfwpython <dfwpython at dfwpython.org>


Brad Allen wrote:

>
well, maybe not surprising.
1) in the web world, many "developers" are actually web designers who really
don't program a whole lot but can throw together some php scripts to make
things happen
2) PHP is probably still the #1 web development platform based on inertia
(no small factor - look at bookstore shelves)
3) python and ruby still have very small market shares - corporate
penetration is still very small
4) most hosting companies barely support python, hardly support ruby (ruby's
former hosting problem was because it had required mongrel, nginx, yada,
yada - this is now fixed with the simple passenger (mod_rails) but few are
up to speed on this - not even WebFaction)
5) more interesting might be: what are developers choosing to do new
projects in ?
6) hardly a good reason, but at UNT, PHP is taught, python or ruby is not
(despite my advocacy).
but the article might be total rubbish when it shows PHP is a major choice
for security - huh?  PHP has some advantages but security is hardly one of
them.




>    //M
>
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1501 South Loop 288 #104
Denton, TX  76205
940-206-9763

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From: *Kevin Horn* <kevin.horn at gmail.com>
Date: Thu, Mar 5, 2009 at 10:36 PM
To: dfwpython <dfwpython at dfwpython.org>





I do mostly web development for a living, and I get hired because I know
PHP.  Corporate clients who go looking for web developers think they have 3
choices: Java, .NET, and PHP.  While I'd certainly pick PHP out of those 3
options, I'd much rather be using Python (I adore Turbogears).  However, the
decision of which technology is to be used has usually been made by some
non-technical higher-up who read something in a "executive" magazine long
before I (or any other technical types) are consulted.  Sometimes I can
sneak some Python in under the radar, though...I often use Python tools to
do mass database migrations or even to generate PHP code.

but going point by point over their various criterion:


   - *Ease of Use:* Ruby, PHP, Flex  (obviously I disagree here)
   - *Exception Handling:* Ruby, Python, Powershell (Powershell? are they
   serious?)
   - *Extensibility:* Python, PHP, Perl  (damn straight Python wins here)
   - *Maintainability/Readability:* Ruby, PHP, Python  (I weep to think that
   I live in a world where anyone considers PHP more readable than Python)
   - *Cross-platform Portability:* PHP, Ruby, Python  (I don't see how Ruby
   beats Python here, and PHP is mostly married to the Apache "platform", so
   while it runs on lots of OSs, you're stuck with the one web server, and
   sometimes Apache is overkill)
   - *Community:* Ruby, PHP, Javascript  (ick...don't know what to say to
   that)
   - *Availability of Tools:* PHP, Ruby, VB Script  (with Python you don't
   need much in the way of tools, though I guess it depends on what they mean
   by tools)
   - *Quality of Tools:* PHP, Flex, Python  (ditto)
   - *Performance:* PHP, Perl, Python  (no way PHP beats Python in a web
   application of any significant size)
   - *Memory Management:* Python, Perl, Flex  (???)
   - *Client-side Scripting:* Javascript, Ruby, Windows Powershell  (again,
   how did Powershell get into this survey at all?)
   - *Security:* Microsoft F#, PHP, Ruby  (PHP should be dead last when it
   comes to security...yes, you CAN write secure code in PHP, but it's not
   easy)

On the subject of the "overall satisfaction" rating...I wonder how much of
PHP's win comes from the fact that there are really no serious negatives (or
at least negative perceptions) to it.  In other words maybe the survey
doesn't indicate the developer community's "favorite" language, but rather
the "least hated".

Kevin Horn


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From: *Jeff Rush* <jeff at taupro.com>
Date: Fri, Mar 6, 2009 at 3:57 AM
To: dfwpython <dfwpython at dfwpython.org>


(repost from a message that got caught in the anti-spam mechanism)

Subject: Re: [dfwPython] PHP more satisfying than Python? Splutter!
From: Sam Rangaswamy <sam at zeomega.com>
Date: Thu, 5 Mar 2009 10:32:10 -0600 (CST)
To: Brad Allen <brad at allendev.com>
CC: dfwpython <dfwpython at dfwpython.org>, martin at martinthomas.net

looking at this
I think they also surveyed programmers walking out of  a pub , PHP is more
maintainable or readable than Python ?

----------
From: *Jeff Rush* <jeff at taupro.com>
Date: Fri, Mar 6, 2009 at 4:00 AM
To: dfwpython <dfwpython at dfwpython.org>


From: Broadus Jones <broadus.jones at gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 05 Mar 2009 12:01:37 -0600
To: martin at martinthomas.net
We were robbed! :)

The results look skewed by market share and media coverage.  Using both
Python
and PHP, I was surprised to see that they were equally ranked in readability
/
maintainability.

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From: *Jason Galyon* <jtgalyon at gmail.com>
Date: Fri, Mar 6, 2009 at 8:56 AM
To: John Taber <john at tigernassau.com>
Cc: dfwpython <dfwpython at dfwpython.org>



I have heard PHP referred to as the "VB of Open Source" :)

Regardless of any truth in that subjective statement (yes, I see the
contradiction there) it goes without saying that many antipatterns are
introduced in teaching PHP to beginners.

Working with a PHP shop that is adopting Python I hear a lot about how
it is so much better in many regards.

Jason

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From: *Paul Kippes* <kippesp at gmail.com>
Date: Fri, Mar 6, 2009 at 6:11 PM
To: dfwpython <dfwpython at dfwpython.org>


The readability of PHP beating Python is interesting and I generally
disagree.  The PHP code I've written is okay and easy to read, the
Python does a much better job in directing one to break up large
scripts into modules and files.  (Did PHP ever implement namespaces?)

Tools must also mean programming editors and debuggers.

I think PHP and Python work equally well across platforms.  It is
trivial to install PHP and Python on Windows and Linux distributions
such as Fedora and Red Hat provide the php-cli RPM.  However even with
Red Hat, the PHP RPM is not required unlike the Python RPM.  Close
tie, perhaps?  One wonders why Perl doesn't beat them all in this
category.

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From: *Jason Galyon* <jtgalyon at gmail.com>
Date: Fri, Mar 6, 2009 at 7:15 PM
To: Paul Kippes <kippesp at gmail.com>, dfwpython <dfwpython at dfwpython.org>


Doesn't red hat, suse, debian, gentoo, and ubuntu use python for most
of their infrastructure and tools?
--
Sent from Gmail for mobile | mobile.google.com

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From: *Martin Thomas* <martin at martinthomas.net>
Date: Fri, Mar 6, 2009 at 8:47 PM
To: Jason Galyon <jtgalyon at gmail.com>
Cc: dfwpython <dfwpython at dfwpython.org>


Certainly Redhat use a lot of Python in their tools.

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From: *Jeff Rush* <jeff at taupro.com>
Date: Fri, Mar 6, 2009 at 10:23 PM
To: dfwpython <dfwpython at dfwpython.org>


And the package management facilities of Gentoo are built completely on top
of Python.

-Jeff

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From: *John Taber* <john at tigernassau.com>
Date: Fri, Mar 6, 2009 at 11:18 PM
To: Martin Thomas <martin at martinthomas.net>
Cc: dfwpython <dfwpython at dfwpython.org>


And Ubuntu uses a lot of Python as well.    Let's see, Ruby has GitHub and
Python has BitBucket, Launchpad and PHP has er, what?  And connect to the
cloud with PHP ?  That's why I said it would be interesting to compare the
newer projects to see if there's a big difference - and where the momentum
is.
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