From mjais at gmx-gmbh.de  Fri Aug  1 09:12:08 2003
From: mjais at gmx-gmbh.de (Markus Jais)
Date: Fri Aug  1 02:10:34 2003
Subject: [XML-SIG] Re: [Tutor] XML documentation
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0307310758500.29948-100000@mauve.rahul.net>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0307310758500.29948-100000@mauve.rahul.net>
Message-ID: <200308010812.08305.mjais@gmx-gmbh.de>

On Jeudi 31 Juillet 2003 17:00, Terry Carroll wrote:
> On Sun, 20 Jul 2003 cybersamurai@mac.com wrote:
> > I need know here I can find documentation about XML and Python. I know
> > How read and write a new XML file but I don't know edit.
>
> I really liked the O'Reilly book:
>
>  http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0596001282
>  http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/pythonxml/


I really like "Definitive XML Application Development" by Lars Marius Garshol, 
Prenctice Hall.

It has more than a 1000 pages and most of the code is in Python. it explains 
the parsers like expat, xmlproc and has very good chaptors on DOM, SAX and 
more. there are also 3 chapters on Java and XML but most of the book is 
Python.
highly recomended.

Markus



-- 
Markus Jais


From walter at livinglogic.de  Fri Aug  1 15:07:17 2003
From: walter at livinglogic.de (=?ISO-8859-15?Q?Walter_D=F6rwald?=)
Date: Fri Aug  1 08:45:07 2003
Subject: [XML-SIG] ANN: XIST 2.2
Message-ID: <3F2A57F5.4020600@livinglogic.de>

XIST 2.2 has been released!


What is it?
===========

XIST is an XML-based extensible HTML generator written in Python.
XIST is also a DOM parser (built on top of SAX2) with a very simple
and Pythonesque tree API. Every XML element type corresponds to a
Python class, and these Python classes provide a conversion method
to transform the XML tree (e.g., into HTML). XIST can be considered
"object oriented XSL".


What's new in version 2.2?
==========================

    * Python 2.3 is required now.
    * Namespaces have been enhanced and are now subclassable,
      so it's possible to overwrite elements.
    * Tree traversal has been rewritten to be more flexible.
    * A namespace for XSL-FO has been added and ll.xist.ns.doc
      supports conversion to XSL-FO now (the website provides
      PDF versions of each page done via this feature (and FOP)).
    * The HTML handling of the HTMLParser has been improved
      (by using code from PyXML's drv_sgmlop_html)
    * XIST DOMs now support copy.copy() and copy.deepcopy()
    * Many other small bugfixes and enhancements.

For changes in older versions see:
http://www.livinglogic.de/Python/xist/History.html


Where can I get it?
===================

XIST can be downloaded from
ftp://ftp.livinglogic.de/pub/livinglogic/xist/

Web pages are at
http://www.livinglogic.de/Python/xist/

ViewCVS access is available at
http://www.livinglogic.de/viewcvs/


Bye,
     Walter D?rwald


From tony.mcdonald at ncl.ac.uk  Fri Aug  1 18:12:23 2003
From: tony.mcdonald at ncl.ac.uk (Tony McDonald)
Date: Fri Aug  1 12:12:31 2003
Subject: [XML-SIG] Re: Problems with elementtree and versions of python.
In-Reply-To: <bg9ipv$v6i$1@main.gmane.org>
References: <BB4BF46F.27DFA%tony.mcdonald@ncl.ac.uk>
	<bg9ipv$v6i$1@main.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <EF37B3D2-C43A-11D7-AC18-003065F95ABC@ncl.ac.uk>


On Thursday, July 31, 2003, at 00:01AM, Fredrik Lundh wrote:

> Tony McDonald wrote:
>
>> I'm having real problems with it though - and I think it's a python 
>> version
>> thing.
>>
>> Eg using the code from
>> http://online.effbot.org/2003_07_01_archive.htm#element-tricks-2
>
> it took me a while to figure it out, but it's a bug in the 
> ElementWrapper
> sample, not in the ElementTree library.
>
> changing the ElementWrapper __getattr__ code from
>
>     def __getattr__(self, tag):
>         return self._element.findtext(self._ns + tag)
>
> to
>
>     def __getattr__(self, tag):
>         if tag.startswith("__"):
>             raise AttributeError(tag)
>         return self._element.findtext(self._ns + tag)
>
> should help.
>
> </F>
>


That's great Fredrik, it does the job nicely (and elementree is a very 
nice piece of software by the way).

Thanks again
Tone.
-- 
Dr Tony McDonald, Assistant Director, FMSC, http://www.fmcc.org.uk/
The Medical School, University of Newcastle upon Tyne, 0191 245 4223
Project manager, FDTL-4 eportfolios project, 
http://www.eportfolios.ac.uk/

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From uche.ogbuji at fourthought.com  Sat Aug  2 05:44:50 2003
From: uche.ogbuji at fourthought.com (Uche Ogbuji)
Date: Sat Aug  2 00:44:52 2003
Subject: [XML-SIG] ANN: Anobind 0.5.0
Message-ID: <1059799321.2484.610.camel@localhost.localdomain>

http://uche.ogbuji.net/tech/4Suite/anobind
 
Anobind is a Python/XML data binding, which is just a fancy way of
saying it's a very Pythonic XML API.
 
You feed Anobind an XML document and it returns a data structure of
corresponding Python objects.  For example, the document
 
<monty>
  <python spam="eggs">What do you mean "bleh"</python>
  <python ministry="abuse">But I was looking for argument</python>
</monty>
 
Would become a set of objects so that you could write
 
binding.monty.python.spam

In order to get the value "eggs" or
                                                                                binding.monty.python[1].text_content()

In order to get the value "But I was looking for argument".

There are other such tools for Python, and what makes Anobind unique is
that it's driven by a very declarative rules-based system for binding
XML to the Python data.  One can register rules that are triggered by
XPatterns or plain Python code in order to register specialized binding
behavior.

It also offers XPath support and some support for round-tripping
documents.

Anobind is open source, provided under the 4Suite variant of the Apache
license.  It requires Python 2.2.2 and 4Suite 1.0a3.


-- 
Uche Ogbuji                                    Fourthought, Inc.
http://uche.ogbuji.net    http://4Suite.org    http://fourthought.com
XML Data Bindings in Python, Part 2 - http://www.xml.com/pub/a/2003/07/02/py-xml.html
Introducing Examplotron - http://www-106.ibm.com/developerworks/xml/library/x-xmptron/
Charming Jython - http://www-106.ibm.com/developerworks/java/library/j-jython.html
Python, Web services, and XSLT - http://www-106.ibm.com/developerworks/xml/library/ws-pyth13/
A custom-fit career in app development - http://www.adtmag.com/article.asp?id=7744


From noreply at sourceforge.net  Sun Aug  3 14:45:21 2003
From: noreply at sourceforge.net (SourceForge.net)
Date: Sun Aug  3 16:45:24 2003
Subject: [XML-SIG] [ pyxml-Bugs-782470 ] getElementsByName fails due to
	inconsistent case
Message-ID: <E19jPjF-0006tM-00@sc8-sf-web3.sourceforge.net>

Bugs item #782470, was opened at 2003-08-03 21:45
Message generated for change (Tracker Item Submitted) made by Item Submitter
You can respond by visiting: 
https://sourceforge.net/tracker/?func=detail&atid=106473&aid=782470&group_id=6473

Category: DOM
Group: None
Status: Open
Resolution: None
Priority: 5
Submitted By: John J Lee (jjlee)
Assigned to: Nobody/Anonymous (nobody)
Summary: getElementsByName fails due to inconsistent case

Initial Comment:
The attached code snippet explains. 
 
I presume the problem is some missing setAttribute* 
methods in HTMLElement.  Actually, it seems odd to 
implement case normalization in HTMLElement. 
 
If somebody can confirm that it's OK to move HTML case 
normalization into a new class HTMLNamedNodeMap 
and that case should be *lower*-cased (as per bug 
555303), I'll try and make a patch. 
 

----------------------------------------------------------------------

You can respond by visiting: 
https://sourceforge.net/tracker/?func=detail&atid=106473&aid=782470&group_id=6473

From julienmotch at skynet.be  Mon Aug  4 10:57:17 2003
From: julienmotch at skynet.be (Julien Motch)
Date: Mon Aug  4 05:57:19 2003
Subject: [XML-SIG] traversing xml tree is incomplete
Message-ID: <1059991024.1649.6.camel@pluton>

Hi All,

I am new to xml and experiencing  problems by traversing an xml tree.
The python program is :
#audio.py
#!/usr/bin/python
import sys
from xml.dom.ext.reader import Sax2
from xml.dom.NodeFilter import NodeFilter

# create Reader object
reader = Sax2.Reader()

# parse the document
doc = reader.fromStream(sys.stdin)

walker = doc.createTreeWalker(doc.documentElement,
                              NodeFilter.SHOW_ELEMENT, None, 10)

while 1:
    print walker.currentNode.tagName
    next = walker.nextNode()
    if next is None: break

it is called as it : cat afxc.xml & ./audio.xml

and the afx.xml file is :
<?xml version="1.0" encoding="ISO-8859-1"?>
<!DOCTYPE CDInfo SYSTEM "http://www.musicbrainz.org/dtd/CDInfo.dtd">
<CDInfo>
   <Title>26 Mixes for Cash\Disc 1</Title>
   <NumTracks>13</NumTracks>
   <IdInfo>
      <DiskId>
            <Id>P_KmeuFUQTSj5Tymmor.07xxgyY-</Id>
      </DiskId>
   </IdInfo>   
   <SingleArtistCD>
      <Artist>Aphex Twin</Artist>
      <Track Num="1">
         <Name>Time To Find Me (AFX Fast Mix) [Seefeel]</Name>
      </Track>
      <Track Num="2">
         <Name>Raising The Titanic (Big Drum Mix) [Gavin Bryars]</Name>
      </Track>
      <Track Num="3">
         <Name>Journey (Aphex Twin Care Mix) [Gentle People]</Name>
      </Track>
      <Track Num="4">
         <Name>Triachus (Mix by Aphex Twin) [Kinesthesia]</Name>
      </Track>
      <Track Num="5">
         <Name>Heroes (Aphex Twin Remix) [Philip Glass]</Name>
      </Track>
      <Track Num="6">
         <Name>In The Glitter Part 2 (Aphex Twin Mix) [Buck Tick]</Name>
      </Track>
      <Track Num="7">
         <Name>Zeroes and Ones (Aphex Twin Reconstruction #2) [Jesus
Jones]</Name>
      </Track>
      <Track Num="8">
         <Name>Ziggy (Aphex Twin Mix #1) [Nav Katze]</Name>
      </Track>
      <Track Num="9">
         <Name>Your Head My Voice (Voix Revirement) [Saint
Etienne]</Name>
      </Track>
      <Track Num="10">
         <Name>Change (Aphex Twin Mix #2) [Nav Katze]</Name>
      </Track>
      <Track Num="11">
         <Name>Une Femme N'est Pas Un Homme (Aphex Twin Mix) [The
Beatniks]</Name>
      </Track>
      <Track Num="12">
         <Name>The Beauty of Being Numb Section B (Created by Aphex
Twin) [Nine Inch Nails]</Name>
      </Track>
      <Track Num="13">
         <Name>Let My Fish Loose (Aphex Twin Remix) [Nobukazu
Takemura]</Name>
      </Track>
   </SingleArtistCD>

</CDInfo>

The output of the program is :

CDInfo
Title
NumTracks
IdInfo
DiskId
Id
which is quite strange as it does not print the track and name element .

but if I remove the lines :
 <IdInfo>
      <DiskId>
            <Id>P_KmeuFUQTSj5Tymmor.07xxgyY-</Id>
      </DiskId>
   </IdInfo>   

the the output seems normal and is :

CDInfo
Title
NumTracks
SingleArtistCD
Artist
Track
Name
Track
Name
Track
Name
Track
Name
Track
Name
Track
Name
Track
Name
Track
Name
Track
Name
Track
Name
Track
Name
Track
Name
Track
Name

Is it a bug or is my xml file not well formed ?

Thanks ,Julien.

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From Alexandre.Tan at nokia.com  Wed Aug  6 15:15:50 2003
From: Alexandre.Tan at nokia.com (Alexandre.Tan@nokia.com)
Date: Wed Aug  6 07:15:59 2003
Subject: [XML-SIG] newbie question : ImportError:
	/usr/lib/python2.2/lib-dynload/pyexpat.so: undefined symbol:
	PyUnicodeUCS4_Decode
Message-ID: <58E9549287153543B1D95B91C332BD732666C1@esebe016.ntc.nokia.com>

Hello, 

	I have a problem with the following import : (Red Hat 7.3, PyXML-0.7-4, Python2.2)
	"import xml.parsers.expat" 

	I receive the following message of error : 
	"ImportError: /usr/lib/python2.2/lib-dynload/pyexpat.so: undefined symbol: PyUnicodeUCS4_Decode"

	I didn't find a thread on this in the Archive. I thank you in advance for any tip that could help me get out of this ... :-) 

Alexandre Tan 

	

From fredrik at pythonware.com  Wed Aug  6 14:23:40 2003
From: fredrik at pythonware.com (Fredrik Lundh)
Date: Wed Aug  6 07:23:47 2003
Subject: [XML-SIG] Re: newbie question :
	ImportError:/usr/lib/python2.2/lib-dynload/pyexpat.so:
	undefined symbol:PyUnicodeUCS4_Decode
References: <58E9549287153543B1D95B91C332BD732666C1@esebe016.ntc.nokia.com>
Message-ID: <bgqof9$5n1$1@main.gmane.org>

Alexandre.Tan@nokia.com wrote:

> I have a problem with the following import : (Red Hat 7.3, PyXML-0.7-4, Python2.2)
> "import xml.parsers.expat"
>
> I receive the following message of error :
> "ImportError: /usr/lib/python2.2/lib-dynload/pyexpat.so: undefined
> symbol: PyUnicodeUCS4_Decode"
>
> I didn't find a thread on this in the Archive. I thank you in advance
> for any tip that could help me get out of this ... :-)

the second google hit for "undefined symbol: PyUnicodeUCS4_Decode"
is:

    http://mail.python.org/pipermail/xml-sig/2003-January/008920.html

which explains the problem (but in reverse).

</F>




From brendan at Magma-DA.COM  Wed Aug  6 13:22:01 2003
From: brendan at Magma-DA.COM (Brendan Rankin)
Date: Wed Aug  6 15:23:07 2003
Subject: [XML-SIG] Problem using xmlrpclib.
Message-ID: <GEENJOBCCDGNGHKLIENBAECFCBAA.brendan@magma-da.com>

Hello,

I am a complete newbie to xmlrpc and am trying to implement the client side
access to a SalesForce.com server.  They supply both an XMLRPC and a SOAP
API.  They have a two step authentication process to get logged in, which
goes like this:

1.  Login using "https://www.salesforce.com/servlet/servlet.Api".
	- This returns the following XML fields:
		'userID':'<unique user ID>'
		'server_url': '<server to use for API transactions>'
		'session_id' : '<unique session ID>'
	- It also returns two "Set-Cookie" fields in the HTML headers (example
shown below, not a "real" session_id):
		header: Set-Cookie: sfdcweb=65.213.42.132.194511060194978591; path=/;
max-age=31536000
		header: Set-Cookie: sid=<ridiculously long session_id string>; path=/

2.  The next step is to take 'session_id' and 'userID' and pass it along to
the server specified by 'server_url', along with whatever API command you'd
like to accomplish.

I, successfully, receive the login Response, but when I send the next API
Request, I consistently get the following error:
-----------------------
send: 'POST /servlet/servlet.Api HTTP/1.0\r\nHost:
na1-api.salesforce.com\r\nUser-Agent: xmlrpclib.py/1.0.1 (by
www.pythonware.com)\r\nContent-Type: text/xml\r\nContent-Length:
522\r\n\r\n'
send: "<?xml version='1.0'
encoding='UTF-8'?>\n<methodCall>\n<methodName>sfdc.get_server_timestamp</met
hodName>\n<params>\n<param>\n<value><struct>\n<member>\n<name>version</name>
\n<value><string>2.0</string></value>\n</member>\n<member>\n<name>userID</na
me>\n<value><string>00530000000c4BV</string></value>\n</member>\n<member>\n<
name>session_id</name>\n<value><string>vwxw8sPENpaDeLJgAQHt32W.W3A.eUH_B.hfo
F8sylY9DjH7G27.Am2.dNnSI8zQWR1EFY6Muc1Dg9jOlW0BT.btzKggVlhL</string></value>
\n</member>\n</struct></value>\n</param>\n</params>\n</methodCall>\n"
reply: 'HTTP/1.0 200 OK\r\n'
header: Server: Resin/2.1.9
header: Content-Type: text/xml; charset=UTF-8
header: Date: Wed, 06 Aug 2003 18:36:19 GMT
body: '<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"
?><methodResponse><fault><value><struct><member><name>faultString</name><val
ue>session ID missing or
invalid</value></member><member><name>faultCode</name><value><int>1112</int>
</value></member></struct></value></fault></methodResponse>'
Traceback (most recent call last):
  File "./bin/Python/sforceXMLRPC.py", line 56, in ?
    transactionServer.sfdc.get_server_timestamp( timestampParams )
  File "/usr/lib/python2.3/xmlrpclib.py", line 1029, in __call__
    return self.__send(self.__name, args)
  File "/usr/lib/python2.3/xmlrpclib.py", line 1316, in __request
    verbose=self.__verbose
  File "/usr/lib/python2.3/xmlrpclib.py", line 1080, in request
    return self._parse_response(h.getfile(), sock)
  File "/usr/lib/python2.3/xmlrpclib.py", line 1219, in _parse_response
    return u.close()
  File "/usr/lib/python2.3/xmlrpclib.py", line 742, in close
    raise Fault(**self._stack[0])
xmlrpclib.Fault: <Fault 1112: 'session ID missing or invalid'>
------------------------

I can attribute this problem to two possible issues:

1.  Some sort of strange type-mismatch with what SalesForce.com is expecting
to see in the session_id field.
	- Could also be an improperly set field for session_id.
2.  My request does not contain the Cookie fields in the HTML headers.

Does anyone out there have any further suggestions?  Any help would be
greatly appreciated!

Thank you and Best Regards,

- Brendan


From mal at lemburg.com  Wed Aug  6 23:52:24 2003
From: mal at lemburg.com (M.-A. Lemburg)
Date: Wed Aug  6 16:52:58 2003
Subject: [XML-SIG] Problem using xmlrpclib.
In-Reply-To: <GEENJOBCCDGNGHKLIENBAECFCBAA.brendan@magma-da.com>
References: <GEENJOBCCDGNGHKLIENBAECFCBAA.brendan@magma-da.com>
Message-ID: <3F316A88.3080504@lemburg.com>

Brendan Rankin wrote:
> Hello,
> 
> I am a complete newbie to xmlrpc and am trying to implement the client side
> access to a SalesForce.com server.  They supply both an XMLRPC and a SOAP
> API.  They have a two step authentication process to get logged in, which
> goes like this:
> 
> 1.  Login using "https://www.salesforce.com/servlet/servlet.Api".
> 	- This returns the following XML fields:
> 		'userID':'<unique user ID>'
> 		'server_url': '<server to use for API transactions>'
> 		'session_id' : '<unique session ID>'
> 	- It also returns two "Set-Cookie" fields in the HTML headers (example
> shown below, not a "real" session_id):
> 		header: Set-Cookie: sfdcweb=65.213.42.132.194511060194978591; path=/;
> max-age=31536000
> 		header: Set-Cookie: sid=<ridiculously long session_id string>; path=/
> 
> 2.  The next step is to take 'session_id' and 'userID' and pass it along to
> the server specified by 'server_url', along with whatever API command you'd
> like to accomplish.
> 
> I, successfully, receive the login Response, but when I send the next API
> Request, I consistently get the following error:
> -----------------------
> send: 'POST /servlet/servlet.Api HTTP/1.0\r\nHost:
> na1-api.salesforce.com\r\nUser-Agent: xmlrpclib.py/1.0.1 (by
> www.pythonware.com)\r\nContent-Type: text/xml\r\nContent-Length:
> 522\r\n\r\n'
> send: "<?xml version='1.0'
> encoding='UTF-8'?>\n<methodCall>\n<methodName>sfdc.get_server_timestamp</met
> hodName>\n<params>\n<param>\n<value><struct>\n<member>\n<name>version</name>
> \n<value><string>2.0</string></value>\n</member>\n<member>\n<name>userID</na
> me>\n<value><string>00530000000c4BV</string></value>\n</member>\n<member>\n<
> name>session_id</name>\n<value><string>vwxw8sPENpaDeLJgAQHt32W.W3A.eUH_B.hfo
> F8sylY9DjH7G27.Am2.dNnSI8zQWR1EFY6Muc1Dg9jOlW0BT.btzKggVlhL</string></value>
> \n</member>\n</struct></value>\n</param>\n</params>\n</methodCall>\n"
> reply: 'HTTP/1.0 200 OK\r\n'
> header: Server: Resin/2.1.9
> header: Content-Type: text/xml; charset=UTF-8
> header: Date: Wed, 06 Aug 2003 18:36:19 GMT
> body: '<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"
> ?><methodResponse><fault><value><struct><member><name>faultString</name><val
> ue>session ID missing or
> invalid</value></member><member><name>faultCode</name><value><int>1112</int>
> </value></member></struct></value></fault></methodResponse>'
> Traceback (most recent call last):
>   File "./bin/Python/sforceXMLRPC.py", line 56, in ?
>     transactionServer.sfdc.get_server_timestamp( timestampParams )
>   File "/usr/lib/python2.3/xmlrpclib.py", line 1029, in __call__
>     return self.__send(self.__name, args)
>   File "/usr/lib/python2.3/xmlrpclib.py", line 1316, in __request
>     verbose=self.__verbose
>   File "/usr/lib/python2.3/xmlrpclib.py", line 1080, in request
>     return self._parse_response(h.getfile(), sock)
>   File "/usr/lib/python2.3/xmlrpclib.py", line 1219, in _parse_response
>     return u.close()
>   File "/usr/lib/python2.3/xmlrpclib.py", line 742, in close
>     raise Fault(**self._stack[0])
> xmlrpclib.Fault: <Fault 1112: 'session ID missing or invalid'>
> ------------------------
> 
> I can attribute this problem to two possible issues:
> 
> 1.  Some sort of strange type-mismatch with what SalesForce.com is expecting
> to see in the session_id field.
> 	- Could also be an improperly set field for session_id.
> 2.  My request does not contain the Cookie fields in the HTML headers.

I suppose it's problem 2 that's causing the error. xmlrpclib
doesn't magically do cookie by itself; you have to add support
for that to your application layer.

> Does anyone out there have any further suggestions?  Any help would be
> greatly appreciated!
> 
> Thank you and Best Regards,
> 
> - Brendan
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> XML-SIG maillist  -  XML-SIG@python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/xml-sig

-- 
Marc-Andre Lemburg
eGenix.com

Professional Python Software directly from the Source  (#1, Aug 06 2003)
 >>> Python/Zope Products & Consulting ...         http://www.egenix.com/
 >>> mxODBC, mxDateTime, mxTextTools ...        http://python.egenix.com/
________________________________________________________________________


From noreply at sourceforge.net  Thu Aug  7 03:40:52 2003
From: noreply at sourceforge.net (SourceForge.net)
Date: Thu Aug  7 05:40:55 2003
Subject: [XML-SIG] [ pyxml-Bugs-784653 ] xml.xpath.Evaluate(".//a",
	xml_node) fails after 0.8 -> 0.8.x
Message-ID: <E19khGO-0007rf-00@sc8-sf-web2.sourceforge.net>

Bugs item #784653, was opened at 2003-08-07 11:40
Message generated for change (Tracker Item Submitted) made by Item Submitter
You can respond by visiting: 
https://sourceforge.net/tracker/?func=detail&atid=106473&aid=784653&group_id=6473

Category: None
Group: None
Status: Open
Resolution: None
Priority: 5
Submitted By: Mateusz Korniak (matkor)
Assigned to: Nobody/Anonymous (nobody)
Summary: xml.xpath.Evaluate(".//a",xml_node) fails after 0.8 -> 0.8.x

Initial Comment:
Evaluating path raises exception after upgrade from 
0.8 to 0.8.2 / 0.8.3. in really simple xpath which 
should work IMHO. 
 
Testcase included in attachment. 
 
 
 
 
Invocation with PyXML 0.8.3 / 0.8.2 : 
 
[matkor@appserver ~/dev/abbon/tests]$ 
./xpath-bugreport.py 
xml_node: <DOM Element: table at 0x81b7674> 
Traceback (most recent call last): 
  File "./xpath-bugreport.py", line 1436, in ? 
    test(xml_txt,xpath) 
  File "./xpath-bugreport.py", line 10, in test 
    nodes = xml.xpath.Evaluate(xpath,xml_node) 
  File 
"/usr/lib/python2.2/site-packages/_xmlplus/xpath/__init__.py", 
line 70, in Evaluate 
  File 
"/usr/lib/python2.2/site-packages/_xmlplus/xpath/ParsedAbbreviatedRelativeLocationPath.py", 
line 52, in evaluate 
  File 
"/usr/lib/python2.2/site-packages/_xmlplus/xpath/Set.py", 
line 25, in Union 
TypeError: can only concatenate list (not 
"EmptyNodeList") to list 
 
 
 
Invocation with PyXML 0.8  
 
[matkor@appserver ~/dev/abbon/tests]$ 
./xpath-bugreport.py 
xml_node: <DOM Element: table at 136523812> 
 

----------------------------------------------------------------------

You can respond by visiting: 
https://sourceforge.net/tracker/?func=detail&atid=106473&aid=784653&group_id=6473

From jjl at pobox.com  Thu Aug  7 13:58:03 2003
From: jjl at pobox.com (John J Lee)
Date: Thu Aug  7 07:58:16 2003
Subject: [XML-SIG] Problem using xmlrpclib.
In-Reply-To: <3F316A88.3080504@lemburg.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0308071253450.854-100000@alice>

On Wed, 6 Aug 2003, M.-A. Lemburg wrote:
[...]
> > access to a SalesForce.com server.  They supply both an XMLRPC and a SOAP
> > API.  They have a two step authentication process to get logged in, which
> > goes like this:
> >
> > 1.  Login using "https://www.salesforce.com/servlet/servlet.Api".
> >     - This returns the following XML fields:
> >             'userID':'<unique user ID>'
> >             'server_url': '<server to use for API transactions>'
> >             'session_id' : '<unique session ID>'
> >     - It also returns two "Set-Cookie" fields in the HTML headers (example
> > shown below, not a "real" session_id):
> >             header: Set-Cookie: sfdcweb=65.213.42.132.194511060194978591; path=/;
> > max-age=31536000
> >             header: Set-Cookie: sid=<ridiculously long session_id string>; path=/
[...]

Weird.  I suppose they have two separate systems working together, one of
which wants to maintain state via XML-RPC, and one via HTTP cookies.

If you reckon the cookies have some significant purpose, try my
ClientCookie library.  Briefly looking at xmlrpclib.py, it's easy to do.
You'd need to make your own Transport class to pass (an instance of) to
ServerProxy, and trivial Request and Response classes to keep ClientCookie
happy:

Subclass Transport (or write your class as a mixin, and subclass from both
Transport and SafeTransport).  Keep a Cookies object somewhere convenient.
Override the Transport.request method.  In that method, make a Request and
a Response object (see below).  Call cookies.add_cookie_header(request)
just before the self.send_content(...)  call, then send the headers:

for hdr, value in request.headers.items():
    h.putheader(hdr, value)

(you could stick all that in a send_cookies method, of course).

Call cookies.extract_cookies(request, response) just after the
h.getreply(...) call.  That should do the trick.

For your purposes, Response can just be:

class Response:
    def __init__(self, headers): self.headers = headers
    def info(self): return self.headers

and for Request, you can just borrow urllib2's Request object (the URL to
pass to Request constructor -- the only argument you need to bother with,
I think -- will just be "http://"+host+"/", I suppose).

HTH

BTW, use the latest alpha version of ClientCookie -- interface won't
change for this simple usage.  There is a known bug with proxies fixed
(and another whose nature I forget) in an unreleased version, mail me if
you run into trouble.


John


From brendan at Magma-DA.COM  Thu Aug  7 17:00:13 2003
From: brendan at Magma-DA.COM (Brendan Rankin)
Date: Thu Aug  7 19:01:17 2003
Subject: [XML-SIG] Problem using xmlrpclib.
Message-ID: <GEENJOBCCDGNGHKLIENBKECICBAA.brendan@magma-da.com>

Just forwarding the fact that I solved my problem.  I'm now using the API
requests that require the login information for both cookies and XMLRPC
session_id/userID fields.

Thanks to both John Lee and M.A. Lemburg for the confirmation I was looking
for.  Thanks especially to John Lee for a good suggestion of methodology.

Regards,

- Brendan

-----Original Message-----
From: Brendan Rankin [mailto:brendan@magma-da.com]
Sent: Thursday, August 07, 2003 3:43 PM
To: John J Lee
Subject: RE: [XML-SIG] Problem using xmlrpclib.


John,

It *is* (or was) the problem.  I'm now doing *exactly* what you said and
everything appears to be functioning.  I can access any further API
Requests.

Actually, it was contained in their documentation, though I still don't
understand the need for it.  To me, it seems quite redundant.  Even stranger
is the fact that the SOAP server does not have this requirement.  One would
think that they would, at the very least, try to be consistent....

Yes, I read the doc headers for the Cookie.py file included with the distro.
and it is for servers....  Thanks for the cool ClientCookie class.  Saves me
a little bit of regexing the headers on my own!

Cheers,

- Brendan

-----Original Message-----
From: John J Lee [mailto:jjl@pobox.com]
Sent: Thursday, August 07, 2003 3:07 PM
To: Brendan Rankin
Subject: RE: [XML-SIG] Problem using xmlrpclib.


On Thu, 7 Aug 2003, Brendan Rankin wrote:
[...]
> Also, their error message lead me to believe that it was an XML or XMLRPC
> problem (malformed request, etc.), since, I felt than any HTML issues
should
> have triggered a HTML Protocol Error....  Something like "Missing Cookies,
> can't authenticate" would have prevented me from debugging most of the
> xmlrpclib. :-)
[...]

Well, I don't guarantee the missing Cookie header in your requests *is*
the problem, but it seems like a reasonable guess.

In general, HTTP servers for web sites are usually misconfigured badly
enough that you can't rely on an error response to even have a non-200
HTTP response code, so from that PoV, nothing surprises me.  One might
expect better of an XML-RPC server, it's true!  But (to somebody who's
never used XML-RPC, anyway), it seems extremely odd in the first place
that those Set-Cookie headers are there, and even stranger that they
appear to be a necessary part of the XML-RPC interaction... how does the
XML-RPC server even get to find out about these cookies??  <shrug>


> P.S.:  Are you aware of the Cookie.py file included in the Python distro.?

That's for servers, not clients.


John


From and-xml at doxdesk.com  Sun Aug 10 10:51:34 2003
From: and-xml at doxdesk.com (Andrew Clover)
Date: Sun Aug 10 06:04:17 2003
Subject: [XML-SIG] Ann: PXTL, the Python XML Templating Language
Message-ID: <20030810095134.GA20763@doxdesk.com>

PXTL is the Python XML Templating Language, a templating solution
for producing XML, HTML and other text-based document types.

Yes, sorry - it's another templating language.

However, PXTL has some useful characteristics shared by no other
Python templating language (that I have met, at least):

  - templates are pure XML-with-Namespaces documents, allowing
    authors to take advantage of generic XML authoring, testing and
    manipulation tools;
  - code structure is represented by nodes in the document tree:
    making the document hierarchy and the program hierarchy the
    same results in templates that are easy to read, write and debug;
  - powerful Python-style structural tools such as subtemplates and
    imports allow modular templates to be written.

The PXTL language spec has reached revision 1.0, release candidate.
Documentation is here:

  http://doxdesk.com/pxtl/

See the tutorial for syntax examples.

The reference implementation of PXTL (version 0.9) is also now
available. It is a full DOM-based implementation of XML with
following features:

  - on program error, can write a useful in-depth debugging page
    for testing, aiding rapid development;
  - can read and return DOM Document trees, not just serialised
    text;
  - works anywhere: pure-Python package compatible with Python
    1.5.2 and later (tested up to 2.3), with no non-standard
    dependencies or reliance on any application framework.

The reference implementation is intended for testing, development,
batch jobs and interactive use on low-traffic web sites only. An
'optimised' implementation will be included in the package as a
drop-in upgrade later in the year, for high-traffic web sites
which require only text output.

Documentation and download (licence: new-BSD-style) here:

  http://doxdesk.com/software/py/pxtl.html

-- 
Andrew Clover
mailto:and@doxdesk.com
http://www.doxdesk.com/

From and-xml at doxdesk.com  Sun Aug 10 10:53:19 2003
From: and-xml at doxdesk.com (Andrew Clover)
Date: Sun Aug 10 06:06:00 2003
Subject: [XML-SIG] Ann: pxdom, a DOM implementation
Message-ID: <20030810095319.GB20763@doxdesk.com>

pxdom is a stand-alone pure-Python DOM implementation and non-validating
parser, supporting Level 3 Core, XML, Load and Save specifications.

pxdom was written to support the needs of PXTL, but is a general-purpose
implementation suitable for any DOM-based application. It can be included
as a module inside packages that must rely on a fully-working DOM regardless
of what version of Python or PyXML is installed.

The emphasis of pxdom is on standards compliance. It supports the W3C
specifications fully, with only very minor deviations (namely: not all
possible invalid Unicode characters are checked for, and it is lenient
about what nodes a Document may contain, for whitespace-handling
purposes in particular). pxdom passes the DOM L1/2 Core Test Suite.

The emphasis of pxdom is *not* on efficiency. General speed and memory
usage can be expected to be somewhere between minidom and 4DOM levels,
nowhere near cDomlette. Exactly how slow pxdom is remains to be seen;
currently it has only been tested with the DOM Test Suite (where it was
much slower than minidom) and PXTL (where it was - inexplicably -
considerably faster). YMMV.

Because of the relatively small number of applications it has been
tested with, and above all because the DOM Level 3 spec is still subject
to change (though it is now at Last Call), pxdom 0.6 is considered beta
software.

pxdom is compatible with Python 1.5.2 and later (tested up to 2.3);
for correct Unicode support Python 1.6 or later is required. It is
available under a new-BSD-style licence from:

  http://www.doxdesk.com/software/py/pxdom.html

-- 
Andrew Clover
mailto:and@doxdesk.com
http://www.doxdesk.com/

From Jean-Michel.Bruel at univ-pau.fr  Tue Aug 12 17:57:30 2003
From: Jean-Michel.Bruel at univ-pau.fr (Jean-Michel BRUEL)
Date: Tue Aug 12 11:00:27 2003
Subject: [XML-SIG] [CFP:] Workshop on UML 2.0 at FMOODS/DAIS 2003
Message-ID: <200308121457.h7CEvUY14456@univ-pau.fr>

[Apologizes if you receive multiple copies of this call]
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Call for Papers

Workshop on the implications of UML2.0
http://liuppa.univ-pau.fr/WiUML2003/

Held as one of the pre-event of FMOODS'2003
http://fedconf.enst.fr/

Paris, France, November 17, 2003

Topics and goal
-----------------------
The goal of this workshop is to promote a forum of discussions between participants that can report on the expected implications of the newly accepted UML2.0 version and also on the foreseen side-effects it will have on the on existing software development approaches based on UML 1.x. More specifically we welcome papers involving the use of formal methods or those dedicated to particular domains (for example distributed systems).
Since this year the main conference is emphasizing reconfigurability and component-
based design, among other topics, papers that also focus on this area will be particularly welcome for this workshop. 

Submissions
---------------
Researchers and practitioners are invited to submit position papers related to UML 2.0. A position should be 5 to 10 pages long and should be written using the LNCS style format (see http://www.springer.de/comp/lncs/authors.html).  Papers should be submitted to bruel@univ-pau.fr either in postscript or pdf. A programme  committee will review the submissions and select papers that present relevant and interesting ideas. 

The selected papers will be published in the workshop proceedings (a publisher has 
been contacted and the details are under negotiation), and a selection of the best ones
will be submitted (after extension) to a Journal Special Issue (also under negotiation).

If you have any question please feel free to contact Jean-Michel Bruel.

Location/Registration
---------------
Information concerning the venue, the registration, or on FMOODS'2003 can be found at http://fedconf.enst.fr/.

Important Dates
-----------------------
September 30, 2003: Paper submission deadline
October 24, 2003: Notification of acceptance
October 31, 2003: Camera-ready copy due
November 17, 2003: The workshop

Organizers
---------------
Jean-Michel Bruel (France, contact person)
Sophie Dupuy-Chessa (France)
Ana Moreira (Portugal)

Program Committee (to be completed)
---------------
Jean-Michel Bruel (France)
Sophie Dupuy-Chessa (France)
Robert B. France (USA)
Kevin Lano (UK)
Yves Ledru (France)
Ana Moreira (Portugal)
Maria Petrie (USA)
Ileana Ober (France)
Bernard Rumpe (Germany)
Branislav Selic (Canada)
Jon Whittle (USA)
Yingxu Wang (Canada)

From kschenke at users.sourceforge.net  Tue Aug 12 21:09:02 2003
From: kschenke at users.sourceforge.net (Ken Schenke)
Date: Tue Aug 12 21:09:38 2003
Subject: [XML-SIG] BookmarkBridge Uses XBEL
Message-ID: <3F398FAE.70405@users.sourceforge.net>

Hi,

I am the author of a C++ program called BookmarkBridge, available for 
Linux and Windows.  It is an open source tool hosted by SourceForge at 
http://bookmarkbridge.sourceforge.net

BookmarkBridge merges bookmarks between multiple browsers on a user's 
PC.  Right now it supports Internet Explorer, Mozilla, and Opera.  I 
plan to add support for Konqueror and Galeon in the future.

BookmarkBridge stores a copy of the merged bookmarks using the XBEL 
format.  I mention this in the user manual with a link to your site. 
During development I wrote a couple of Python programs to perform 
regression testing on the XBEL file produced by the application.

Thank you for a well-defined, public file format that enables my 
application to share information with other applications easily.

Ken Schenke
BookmarkBridge Author


From fdrake at acm.org  Wed Aug 13 00:13:31 2003
From: fdrake at acm.org (Fred L. Drake, Jr.)
Date: Tue Aug 12 23:14:15 2003
Subject: [XML-SIG] BookmarkBridge Uses XBEL
In-Reply-To: <3F398FAE.70405@users.sourceforge.net>
References: <3F398FAE.70405@users.sourceforge.net>
Message-ID: <16185.44251.708648.192645@grendel.zope.com>


Ken Schenke writes:
 > I am the author of a C++ program called BookmarkBridge, available for 
 > Linux and Windows.  It is an open source tool hosted by SourceForge at 
 > http://bookmarkbridge.sourceforge.net

Cool!  I've added a link to the list of software that supports XBEL;
the updated list should appear online in a few hours.


  -Fred

-- 
Fred L. Drake, Jr.  <fdrake at acm.org>
PythonLabs at Zope Corporation

From Jason.Jurkowski at usa.xerox.com  Wed Aug 13 16:02:25 2003
From: Jason.Jurkowski at usa.xerox.com (Jurkowski, Jason)
Date: Wed Aug 13 15:13:46 2003
Subject: [XML-SIG] xml-rpc and http proxy servers
Message-ID: <BEAC325B8372FE4E8D06AF5E064822AB9E793C@usamcms1.mc.usa.xerox.com>

i love the simplicity of the xml-rpc interface to the google spelling
service (http://google.xmlrpc.com).  i find it so much easier to use a small
xmlrpclib-based python script to query for spellings instead of pulling up a
big, clunky browser and using a web page like dictionary.com.

there is a problem though.  at work i have to run http through a proxy
server.  urllib supports proxies fine, however xmlrpclib is run over httplib
directly.  is there chance xmlrpc lib could be modified to examine and use
the http_proxy environment variable like urllib does?  the ability of
xml-rpc to run through firewalls is one of its greatest strengths :).
thanks,
jason

      

From rtjohan at syspres.com  Thu Aug 14 14:54:14 2003
From: rtjohan at syspres.com (Richard Johannesson)
Date: Thu Aug 14 16:58:35 2003
Subject: [XML-SIG] Python / XML / XSLT vs. Cocoon for website server side
Message-ID: <002701c362a6$38f3f0b0$4601a8c0@rjc800>

I am laying out a new medium size website that I was hoping I could use
Python / XML on the server side. This is a brand new site, no e-commerce at
first, but will add later. Site will need the blog, wiki, group calendar,
and other basic features. The size of site will initially about 50 pages,
but should grow quickly to few thousand pages. Much of the content will be
produced by users. So, main concern is being able to apply stylesheets to
content to keep a consistent look.

Key decisions:
 - All HTML generation done via XSLT
 - Have logic done in XSLT where possible
 - Use Python for glue
 - Use Postgresql for RDBMS
 - Use FreeBSD for Servers
 - Strict separation of content / presentation / logic
 ? Need to figure out what XML (enabled) database can use from Python

Here are the assumptions I'm making:
 - XML to HTML transformations via XSLT will provide good platform
independence. .Net, J2EE, Python all support XSLT. So, if required to move
to different platform, this should be possible
 - XSLT/XML can generate just about any html page a CSS/template engine can
 - Adding new content using XML/XSLT is less work than using ASP/PHP/JSP
etc.

Decided to stay away from J2EE / Jboss (overkill/long ramp-up time/slow
development).

I've been wondering how much extra work I'll have to do in Python if I don't
use something like Cocoon. I guess it's possible to use Cocoon with Python.
Would anyone recommend using Cocoon or some alternative?

Is there much consulting work for XML/Python? Current customers are pretty
much exclusively ASP / ASP.net.

Thanks in advance for any feedback on the assumptions I'm making above, any
comments about Cocoon, or what XML database Python supports.

Regards,
Richard



From dkuhlman at cutter.rexx.com  Thu Aug 14 15:57:08 2003
From: dkuhlman at cutter.rexx.com (Dave Kuhlman)
Date: Thu Aug 14 17:56:59 2003
Subject: [XML-SIG] Python / XML / XSLT vs. Cocoon for website server side
In-Reply-To: <002701c362a6$38f3f0b0$4601a8c0@rjc800>;
	from rtjohan@syspres.com on Thu, Aug 14, 2003 at 01:54:14PM -0700
References: <002701c362a6$38f3f0b0$4601a8c0@rjc800>
Message-ID: <20030814145708.A94047@cutter.rexx.com>

On Thu, Aug 14, 2003 at 01:54:14PM -0700, Richard Johannesson wrote:
> I am laying out a new medium size website that I was hoping I could use
> Python / XML on the server side. This is a brand new site, no e-commerce at
> first, but will add later. Site will need the blog, wiki, group calendar,
> and other basic features. The size of site will initially about 50 pages,
> but should grow quickly to few thousand pages. Much of the content will be
> produced by users. So, main concern is being able to apply stylesheets to
> content to keep a consistent look.
> 
> Key decisions:
>  - All HTML generation done via XSLT

You may also want to consider straight Python.  You could use
Python code that works from the XML DOM (e.g. minidom).  There are
also several solutions that will turn an XML document into a
specialized DOM where the classes (and the instances that form the
DOM tree) reflect the elements and tags in the XML source document.

>  - Have logic done in XSLT where possible

Ha. Ha. Ha.  Only a sick pervert would make a joke like that.

Can someone who has tried doing logic in XSLT stylesheets give a
bit of insight on how to do logic in XSLT?  My understanding is
that XSLT is good for recursive pattern matching and generation of
content from patterns/templates, but not good once you go beyond
that.  Can someone confirm that or show how complex logic is done
in XSLT stylesheets?  Would that logic be readable and
maintainable?

>  - Use Python for glue

Good idea.  Python *is* glue.  See "Glue It All Together With
Python":

    http://www.python.org/doc/essays/omg-darpa-mcc-position.html

>  - Use Postgresql for RDBMS

Good idea.  There are several implementations of the Python DB API
for PostgreSQL.  I'm using pyPgSQL myself.  It makes database
access via SQL pretty easy.

>  - Use FreeBSD for Servers
>  - Strict separation of content / presentation / logic
>  ? Need to figure out what XML (enabled) database can use from Python
> 
> Here are the assumptions I'm making:
>  - XML to HTML transformations via XSLT will provide good platform
> independence. .Net, J2EE, Python all support XSLT. So, if required to move
> to different platform, this should be possible

Not to try to talk you out of XSLT, but there are other ways to
gain platform independence.  Python is one good way.

>  - XSLT/XML can generate just about any html page a CSS/template engine can

If you are saying that XSLT is a suitable tool for generating *any*
HTML from XML, I'd be skeptical.  My belief is that there are
complex transformations for which XSLT would *not* be suitable. 
Again, is there an XSLT expert that can give an evaluation here?

>  - Adding new content using XML/XSLT is less work than using ASP/PHP/JSP
> etc.
> 
> Decided to stay away from J2EE / Jboss (overkill/long ramp-up time/slow
> development).
> 
> I've been wondering how much extra work I'll have to do in Python if I don't
> use something like Cocoon. I guess it's possible to use Cocoon with Python.
> Would anyone recommend using Cocoon or some alternative?
> 
> Is there much consulting work for XML/Python? Current customers are pretty
> much exclusively ASP / ASP.net.
> 
> Thanks in advance for any feedback on the assumptions I'm making above, any
> comments about Cocoon, or what XML database Python supports.
> 
> Regards,
> Richard
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> XML-SIG maillist  -  XML-SIG@python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/xml-sig

Dave

-- 
Dave Kuhlman
dkuhlman@rexx.com
http://www.rexx.com/~dkuhlman

From rtjohan at syspres.com  Thu Aug 14 17:04:59 2003
From: rtjohan at syspres.com (Richard Johannesson)
Date: Thu Aug 14 19:09:21 2003
Subject: [XML-SIG] Python / XML / XSLT vs. Cocoon for website server side
In-Reply-To: <20030814145708.A94047@cutter.rexx.com>
Message-ID: <002a01c362b8$7ce3e340$4601a8c0@rjc800>

Dave - thanks for the feedback.

As you can tell, my understanding of XML/XSLT/Python is limited. I've done
simple Python stuff before, but never done any CGI/HTML with Python. Most
web work done in ASP for small internal corporate apps. ASP works for small
applications, but I'm betting that XML/Python scales better for large
systems. Concerned with how to scale website when content and presentation
layer are mixed. I'm primarily trying to decide the architecture of site and
which technology to use. Will outsource much of the work. So, the primary
concern is "can it scale". Can I outsource pieces and reuse as much of the
resulting work as possible. Although some of the Python templating solutions
probably could handle the presentation layer, using something that's not a
standard makes me nervous. Hence the focus on XSLT. If I would have to move
to something other than Python, then the XSLT can be reused.

>> I am laying out a new medium size website that I was hoping I could use
>> Python / XML on the server side. This is a brand new site, no e-commerce
at
>> first, but will add later. Site will need the blog, wiki, group calendar,
>> and other basic features. The size of site will initially about 50 pages,
>> but should grow quickly to few thousand pages. Much of the content will
be
>> produced by users. So, main concern is being able to apply stylesheets to
>> content to keep a consistent look.
>>
>> Key decisions:
>>  - All HTML generation done via XSLT
>
>You may also want to consider straight Python.  You could use
>Python code that works from the XML DOM (e.g. minidom).  There are
>also several solutions that will turn an XML document into a
>specialized DOM where the classes (and the instances that form the
>DOM tree) reflect the elements and tags in the XML source document.

This might be a good alternative. After dismissing the Java/Cocoon route,
I'm looking at the different html/XML libraries available in Python. Trying
to decide which ones should be used.

>>  - Have logic done in XSLT where possible
>Ha. Ha. Ha.  Only a sick pervert would make a joke like that.
>
>Can someone who has tried doing logic in XSLT stylesheets give a
>bit of insight on how to do logic in XSLT?  My understanding is
>that XSLT is good for recursive pattern matching and generation of
>content from patterns/templates, but not good once you go beyond
>that.  Can someone confirm that or show how complex logic is done
>in XSLT stylesheets?  Would that logic be readable and
>maintainable?

I've just read that this is possible. Not looked into how its done yet. Only
done some simple XSLT transformation so far - creating html doc from a few
xml docs using XSLT. Thanks for the warning. Theoretically, if the logic can
be stored in a language independent format - this sounds ideal. But, most
ideal things don't work in reality. Still worth looking into.

>>  - Use Python for glue
>Good idea.  Python *is* glue.  See "Glue It All Together With
>Python":
>
>    http://www.python.org/doc/essays/omg-darpa-mcc-position.html

Yup. Looks like the ultimate glue.

>>  - Use Postgresql for RDBMS
>Good idea.  There are several implementations of the Python DB API
>for PostgreSQL.  I'm using pyPgSQL myself.  It makes database
>access via SQL pretty easy.

How do you handle XML data storage? Use XML DB or use RDBMS? I've seen some
article that discussed extending Postgresql with custom functions to handle
XML. Likely to be too much work.

Probably will be pushing for stored procedures PL/pgSQL. I believe there was
some development to get Python stored procedure support for PostgreSQL. Last
I looked this seemed to have been dropped. Ideally, would be nice to write
the stored procedures in Python. Anyone do that successfully?

>>  - Use FreeBSD for Servers
>>  - Strict separation of content / presentation / logic
>>  ? Need to figure out what XML (enabled) database can use from Python
>>
>> Here are the assumptions I'm making:
>>  - XML to HTML transformations via XSLT will provide good platform
>> independence. .Net, J2EE, Python all support XSLT. So, if required to
move
>> to different platform, this should be possible
>Not to try to talk you out of XSLT, but there are other ways to
>gain platform independence.  Python is one good way.

Just seems that XSLT will provide also language independence. Most major
languages support XSLT. Trying to decide if its worth the cost in terms of
development time. I was under the impression that developing huge sites is
faster when using XSLT. Building the pages in Python seems to have the same
scalbility problems that ASP/PHP have since can't enforce content /
persentation layer seperation. Is this incorrect? I don't want to force the
developers to use something that doesn't make the overall development effort
faster. So, if creating a huge site is more maintainable and faster to
develop without XSLT I'd drop it in a heart beat. Just what I've read so far
is that at this point in time it should be better to use XSLT. That's after
some growing pains in getting used to it.

Seems also easier to partition the work when using XSLT.

>>  - XSLT/XML can generate just about any html page a CSS/template engine
can
>If you are saying that XSLT is a suitable tool for generating *any*
>HTML from XML, I'd be skeptical.  My belief is that there are
>complex transformations for which XSLT would *not* be suitable.
>Again, is there an XSLT expert that can give an evaluation here?

Yeah, would be great to hear where XSLT would be unsuitable. I'm pretty much
so far relying on the O'Reilly XML books - got pretty much all of them. XML
Schema, XSLT Cookbook, XSLT, Xpath and Xpointer and Master XML by Sybex +
online articles. But the only way to know is to use this stuff for a few
years extensively. Would be nice to learn from the masters and avoid the
classic mistakes.

>>  - Adding new content using XML/XSLT is less work than using ASP/PHP/JSP
>>
>> Decided to stay away from J2EE / Jboss (overkill/long ramp-up time/slow
>> development).
>>
>> I've been wondering how much extra work I'll have to do in Python if I
don't
>> use something like Cocoon. I guess it's possible to use Cocoon with
Python.
>> Would anyone recommend using Cocoon or some alternative?
>>
>> Is there much consulting work for XML/Python? Current customers are
pretty
>> much exclusively ASP / ASP.net.
>>
>> Thanks in advance for any feedback on the assumptions I'm making above,
any
>> comments about Cocoon, or what XML database Python supports.
>>
>> Regards,
>> Richard
>>
>>
>
>Dave
>
>--
>Dave Kuhlman
>dkuhlman@rexx.com
>http://www.rexx.com/~dkuhlman

Would be nice if some best practices could be created on Python / XML. Maybe
if we get enough feedback, this might lead to something like that. Just too
much confusion out there. One major strength Python has is its
documentation. If it would go even further and start capturing best
practices - it would be in a league of its own. Make it easier for newcomers
to pick-up the language and start implementing things properly.

Thanks again,
Richard



From tpassin at comcast.net  Thu Aug 14 23:22:07 2003
From: tpassin at comcast.net (Thomas B. Passin)
Date: Thu Aug 14 22:16:38 2003
Subject: [XML-SIG] Python / XML / XSLT vs. Cocoon for website server side
References: <002701c362a6$38f3f0b0$4601a8c0@rjc800>
Message-ID: <002901c362d4$06cf8d00$6401a8c0@tbp1>

[Richard Johannesson]

> I am laying out a new medium size website that I was hoping I could use
> Python / XML on the server side. This is a brand new site, no e-commerce
at
> first, but will add later. Site will need the blog, wiki, group calendar,
> and other basic features. The size of site will initially about 50 pages,
> but should grow quickly to few thousand pages. Much of the content will be
> produced by users. So, main concern is being able to apply stylesheets to
> content to keep a consistent look.

Why don't you just use Plone?  No need to reinvent the wheel.  Plone is
built on Zope, so there is your Python.  It does not use xslt, but its page
templates are in ZPT, which is actually an xml-based language.  Plone, as a
content management system,  should do anything you need, and you can always
extend it (Python programming and ZPT) as needed.  Plone uses an extensive
set of skins to get its appearance, and the page layout and appearance can
be massively customized if you want.

Cheers,

Tom P



From cstrong at arielpartners.com  Thu Aug 14 23:22:21 2003
From: cstrong at arielpartners.com (Craeg K Strong)
Date: Thu Aug 14 22:22:58 2003
Subject: [XML-SIG] Python / XML / XSLT vs. Cocoon for website server side
In-Reply-To: <002a01c362b8$7ce3e340$4601a8c0@rjc800>
References: <002a01c362b8$7ce3e340$4601a8c0@rjc800>
Message-ID: <3F3C43DD.5020002@arielpartners.com>

I went through a similar decision process last November.  I wrote up the 
results here:

http://www.arielpartners.com/arielpartners/content/public/topics/technology/technologyReviews/zopeVsCocoon

Although it is dated, the basic conclusions are still valid IMO.   Both 
products have gotten significantly better
since then.   There are also other python-based frameworks I have 
learned about since that time that probably
should have been part of the evaluation, such as Twisted and 4Suite.

Hope this helps,

--Craeg

Richard Johannesson wrote:

>>>I am laying out a new medium size website that I was hoping I could use
>>>Python / XML on the server side. This is a brand new site, no e-commerce
>>>      
>>>
>at
>  
>
>>>first, but will add later. Site will need the blog, wiki, group calendar,
>>>and other basic features. The size of site will initially about 50 pages,
>>>but should grow quickly to few thousand pages. Much of the content will
>>>      
>>>
>be
>  
>
>>>produced by users. So, main concern is being able to apply stylesheets to
>>>content to keep a consistent look.
>>>
>>>Key decisions:
>>> - All HTML generation done via XSLT
>>>      
>>>
>>You may also want to consider straight Python.  You could use
>>Python code that works from the XML DOM (e.g. minidom).  There are
>>also several solutions that will turn an XML document into a
>>specialized DOM where the classes (and the instances that form the
>>DOM tree) reflect the elements and tags in the XML source document.
>>    
>>
>
>This might be a good alternative. After dismissing the Java/Cocoon route,
>I'm looking at the different html/XML libraries available in Python. Trying
>to decide which ones should be used.
>  
>


From rtjohan at syspres.com  Thu Aug 14 23:09:28 2003
From: rtjohan at syspres.com (Richard Johannesson)
Date: Fri Aug 15 01:13:59 2003
Subject: [XML-SIG] Python / XML / XSLT vs. Cocoon for website server side
In-Reply-To: <002901c362d4$06cf8d00$6401a8c0@tbp1>
Message-ID: <003d01c362eb$68698bd0$4601a8c0@rjc800>

Tom - thanks for the feedback.

I've read a bit on Zope and seems like it’s a great product. I haven't
looked into Plone yet but will be looking into it now. Thanks for the tip.

The thing about Zope, my impression is that once you develop the app in Zope
your pretty much stuck with that application server. Probably the case with
any system, but the thing that's appealing with XML / XSLT from a business
point of view at least is that it’s a standard. This might give you
flexibility to merge with another website to provide additional service
offerings since most major application servers support XML/XLST. If the only
companies you can easily merge applications with must be running Zope, this
will limit your flexibility and therefore your value.

Now, if its easy to integrate Zope applications with applications running on
.Net/Jboss/etc then this is not an issue. Part of what I'm trying to figure
out is, from the experts that have been in the trenches with these system -
what is their experience. Just my impression about Zope is that it's a
pretty closed system. If this is incorrect please let me know. I would hate
to unfairly dismiss a great platform such as Zope.

Any idea how large the websites are that run Plone or Zope? So, number of
users that use the website and number of pages that make up the website?

I agree, don't reinvent anything. Develop apps as quickly as possible, make
system scalable, easy to manage, easy to add functionality, and keep your OS
/ platform / language options as open as as you can. This is a very messy
dynamic optimization problem that depends on lot's of variables. Just trying
to nail down as many variables as I can at this point in time.

Thanks again,
Richard

>> I am laying out a new medium size website that I was hoping I could use
>> Python / XML on the server side. This is a brand new site, no e-commerce
at
>> first, but will add later. Site will need the blog, wiki, group calendar,
>> and other basic features. The size of site will initially about 50 pages,
>> but should grow quickly to few thousand pages. Much of the content will
be
>> produced by users. So, main concern is being able to apply stylesheets to
>> content to keep a consistent look.
>
>Why don't you just use Plone?  No need to reinvent the wheel.  Plone is
>built on Zope, so there is your Python.  It does not use xslt, but its page
>templates are in ZPT, which is actually an xml-based language. Plone, as a
>content management system,  should do anything you need, and you can always
>extend it (Python programming and ZPT) as needed.  Plone uses an extensive
>set of skins to get its appearance, and the page layout and appearance can
>be massively customized if you want.
>
>Cheers,
>
>Tom P



From tpassin at comcast.net  Fri Aug 15 02:54:02 2003
From: tpassin at comcast.net (Thomas B. Passin)
Date: Fri Aug 15 01:48:26 2003
Subject: [XML-SIG] Python / XML / XSLT vs. Cocoon for website server side
References: <003d01c362eb$68698bd0$4601a8c0@rjc800>
Message-ID: <002a01c362f1$a0fb73e0$6401a8c0@tbp1>

[Richard Johannesson]> Tom - thanks for the feedback.
>
> I've read a bit on Zope and seems like it?s a great product. I haven't
> looked into Plone yet but will be looking into it now. Thanks for the tip.
>
> The thing about Zope, my impression is that once you develop the app in
Zope
> your pretty much stuck with that application server.

Well, yes, but if you developed with, say, Cocoon, it would be the same.  At
least, Plone uses xml page templates, Python, and CSS.

Zope is actually very good for integrating with other apps, because it
supports FTP, WEBDAV, and XML-RPC out of the box.  We integrated it with a
java system that got data from somewhere using CORBA.  We had the java app
run a small server daemon to talk to Zope, and passed XML messages between
them.  I wrote a simple adapter (in Python) to let Zope run xslt
transformations, and created the display that way - our equivalent of
"business logic" produced xml, which we transformed to HTML inside of Zope.

It is true that Plone does not work that way, but the point is that when you
want to extend its functionality and go to integrate it with other systems,
all these capabilties are available to you.  You really can integrate
anything that has a (C-)python wrapper, or is written in Python, directly
into Zope (via Exteral Methods), and nearly anything else via XML-RPC or
plain message-passing as I described above.  Actually, there is now some
ability to use perl scripting too.  On Windows, there are Windows and COM
extensions for Python, so you can make use of that whole area if you like.

On the other hand, Zope does not have much in the way of native XML handling
yet.  You have to work out how to use the Python XML libraries when you want
to do XML (aside from the page templates).  I have not found this to be a
real problem, though.

>  Probably the case with
> any system, but the thing that's appealing with XML / XSLT from a business
> point of view at least is that it?s a standard. This might give you
> flexibility to merge with another website to provide additional service
> offerings since most major application servers support XML/XLST. If the
only
> companies you can easily merge applications with must be running Zope,
this
> will limit your flexibility and therefore your value.
>
> Now, if its easy to integrate Zope applications with applications running
on
> .Net/Jboss/etc then this is not an issue.

(See above)

> Part of what I'm trying to figure
> out is, from the experts that have been in the trenches with these
system -
> what is their experience. Just my impression about Zope is that it's a
> pretty closed system.

On the contrary, it is quite open, depending of course on what you mean by
that.  The code is open source, and there is a large and active community
working on applications, tools, and utilities.  Zope is a large and complex
system, though, and there can be a real learning curve.  Fortunately you can
do a lot with very simple means with it - you do not have to use but a
fraction of its capabilities - it will bring many more with it but you do
not have to do anything special to use them.  And, as I have indicated
above, you can use it in many ways.  It also comes with a very good object
database, which in fact can by used separately from Zope if you like.

>If this is incorrect please let me know. I would hate
> to unfairly dismiss a great platform such as Zope.
>
> Any idea how large the websites are that run Plone or Zope? So, number of
> users that use the website and number of pages that make up the website?
>

There are some large, active ones.  As a point of interest, the CBS-New York
site (not Plone) is run by Zope -

http://cbsnewyork.com/

You can find some lists of large sites, as I recall.  To handle a lot of
hits, you have to do some things like put it behind a group of Apache
servers.  There are some guides on how to do that.

Anyway, the upshot of all this is that if you are inclined to Python, and
you want a content management site that you will later extend,  Plone/Zope
would be a really promising starting point.

This is getting a bit OT, so maybe we should take it off line if you want
more information.

Cheers,

Tom P



From rtjohan at syspres.com  Fri Aug 15 00:27:34 2003
From: rtjohan at syspres.com (Richard Johannesson)
Date: Fri Aug 15 02:31:58 2003
Subject: [XML-SIG] Python / XML / XSLT vs. Cocoon for website server side
In-Reply-To: <3F3C43DD.5020002@arielpartners.com>
Message-ID: <000301c362f6$51239870$4601a8c0@rjc800>

Craeg,

Good article you put together - very informative. It definetly helps - now
I'll have to take another look at Zope.

Does Zope make it as easy to keep a strict seperation between the content /
presentation / business logic that Cocoon promises? Were you able to
implement the XSLT transformation in Zope with your modifications that
Cocoon offers? If you were forced to move to Cocoon - how much recoding
would be needed? 20%? 50%? 80%?

Did you consider any of the following [+my impressions]:
 Webware? [very nicely done, concerned not large enough user community -
prefer XSLT over PSP]
 Quixote? [seemed like to choice, but prefer standard markup like XSLT]
 CherryPy? [prefer XSLT]
 Spyce?
 Cheetah?
 Mod_python? [will use in production release]
 Albatross? [?]
 Twisted? [?]

Which XML libraries did you decide to use?
 Pyana? [seems useful]
 PIRXX? [seems redundant]
 4Suite? [top condender]
 PyXML? [seems like a must]

Thanks again,
Richard

>-----Original Message-----
>From: Craeg K Strong [mailto:cstrong@arielpartners.com]
>Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2003 7:22 PM
>To: xml-sig@python.org
>Cc: rtjohan@syspres.com; 'Dave Kuhlman'
>Subject: Re: [XML-SIG] Python / XML / XSLT vs. Cocoon for
>website server side
>
>
>I went through a similar decision process last November.  I
>wrote up the
>results here:
>
>http://www.arielpartners.com/arielpartners/content/public/topic
>s/technology/technologyReviews/zopeVsCocoon
>
>Although it is dated, the basic conclusions are still valid
>IMO.   Both products have gotten significantly better
>since then.   There are also other python-based frameworks I have
>learned about since that time that probably
>should have been part of the evaluation, such as Twisted and 4Suite.
>
>Hope this helps,
>
>--Craeg



From torsten.rueger at hiit.fi  Fri Aug 15 12:37:09 2003
From: torsten.rueger at hiit.fi (Torsten Rueger)
Date: Fri Aug 15 04:37:15 2003
Subject: [XML-SIG] Python / XML / XSLT vs. Cocoon for website server side
In-Reply-To: <20030814145708.A94047@cutter.rexx.com>
Message-ID: <A9149994-CEFB-11D7-A67B-000A959C1BB0@hiit.fi>

Ahh, the ever burning topic of how to build a web application (dynamic 
web site).
Ok I'll chip in. This one on the negative side, the next on the plus 
side:

>> Key decisions:
>>  - All HTML generation done via XSLT
If pain is what you like, that's the way to go.

>>  - Have logic done in XSLT where possible

You do like. Ahh Ouchh.

(Ok I'm joking, all right. You said you never used it and with all the 
books around what you say is a fair choice)

I've only done small-ish (10 pages, 5 posts) application with XSLT 
(Xalan) and XML database (PDOM 
http://www.infonyte.com/en/prod_pdom.html).
The short summary of that is: it's difficult. Unnecessarily so.
Ok, storing xml was easy, but expressing searches in XPath is not 
straightforward. And XSLT isn't easy.

>  My understanding is
> that XSLT is good for recursive pattern matching and generation of
> content from patterns/templates, but not good once you go beyond
> that.

And that's exactly right. So if your xml structure is not exactly what 
your page requires, you've got serious work ahead of you.
Remembering off course that xml does not have a concept of a reference, 
so mapping object dependencies into xml is non trivial.

But the real problem is XSLT is unreadable. Pages you've written only 
days ago seem cryptic.
Maybe more importantly, graphic designers have no chance of 
understanding it.
And it always assumes the dtd of your xml. Change that and you have 
some fun debugging. (So if you do go this way, make it your priority to 
document dtd's)

Anyway, as I said, I'll send another more positive mail on what I have 
found to be beneficial,

Torsten


From torsten.rueger at hiit.fi  Fri Aug 15 13:03:16 2003
From: torsten.rueger at hiit.fi (Torsten Rueger)
Date: Fri Aug 15 05:03:21 2003
Subject: [XML-SIG] Python / XML / XSLT vs. Cocoon for website server side
In-Reply-To: <000301c362f6$51239870$4601a8c0@rjc800>
Message-ID: <4F160163-CEFF-11D7-A67B-000A959C1BB0@hiit.fi>

I don't know about Zope and many of the other technologies you mention.
But I have built three bigger applications (40-70 dynamic pages, 20-30 
posts) with the approach I'll outline, and it has worked very well.

>  Cheetah?

That's the way to go. You'll have easy to understand templates, I've 
even had graphic designers create them. They can learn the concepts of 
a simple syntax like that easily (couple of days). After that it 
becomes a matter of documenting your classes and making the api public 
to the designers. I mean the classes you make available to the 
templates, often called Business logic or application model.

So you use an object model between your gui (templates) and your 
database. Working without such an object model , which often is the XML 
way, becomes messy.
Then you can use XML as a storage technology, if you want to. That's 
what I find XML is good for. But you can use YAML or RDBMS, or as I 
prefer an OODBMS (specifically I prefer the lightweight versions such 
as DyBase http://www.garret.ru/~knizhnik/dybase.html).

If you want to use XML - DB, I'll just chip in that we're currently 
using Sleepycat from python and that works ok. Even it is a bit big and 
difficult to install.

On the topic of porting, I would estimate that you would off course 
have to write all code again. but that should be straightforward. But 
the templates should be much less work, as Java has both WebMacro and 
Velocity with very similar syntax to Cheetah (not by chance as cheetah 
is  WebMacro inspired).

Comparing this approach to my (limited) XML/XSLT experience:
Templates: easier to write and much easier to maintain
Business/Application logic: In the object model where it belongs vs 
spread out all over the place
Gui Logic: Much cleaner separation.
Total effort: Half or one third.

just another 2 pence

   Torsten


From amk at amk.ca  Fri Aug 15 08:02:36 2003
From: amk at amk.ca (A.M. Kuchling)
Date: Fri Aug 15 07:47:48 2003
Subject: [XML-SIG] Python / XML / XSLT vs. Cocoon for website server side
In-Reply-To: <000301c362f6$51239870$4601a8c0@rjc800>
Message-ID: <FA8CEFB3-CF0F-11D7-92DB-0003931BF218@amk.ca>

On Friday, August 15, 2003, at 02:27  AM, Richard Johannesson wrote:
>  Quixote? [seemed like to choice, but prefer standard markup like XSLT]

It would be straightforward to use XSLT templates in Quixote; there's 
no requirement to use PTL.  Let's say you have a bunch of data items as 
XML documents:

DATA = {'key1': '<?xml ...',
           'key2':'<?xml...'}

You would write a class that wraps a single data item:

class XSLTDataUI:
     XSLT_TEMPLATE = "/www/sites/xslt/data.xslt"

     def __init__ (self, key):
         self.data = DATA[key]

     # In the _q_index method, use some existing XSLT support
     def _q_index (self, request):
         output = XSLTProcess(self.XSLT_TEMPLATE, self.data)
         return output

To publish the data set, you would then write a _q_lookup() function 
that created instances of the UI class:

def _q_lookup (request, component):
     return XSLTDataUI(component)

You could subclass XSLTDataUI and override XSLT_TEMPLATE to use a 
different template, or override the __init__() to get data from an 
RDBMS, the filesystem, or whatever;
add a _q_lookup() method to the class and you can support a hierarchy 
of data documents; and so forth.

--amk


From veillard at redhat.com  Fri Aug 15 09:40:11 2003
From: veillard at redhat.com (Daniel Veillard)
Date: Fri Aug 15 08:40:17 2003
Subject: [XML-SIG] Python / XML / XSLT vs. Cocoon for website server side
In-Reply-To: <000301c362f6$51239870$4601a8c0@rjc800>;
	from rtjohan@syspres.com on Thu, Aug 14, 2003 at 11:27:34PM -0700
References: <3F3C43DD.5020002@arielpartners.com>
	<000301c362f6$51239870$4601a8c0@rjc800>
Message-ID: <20030815084011.M9929@redhat.com>

On Thu, Aug 14, 2003 at 11:27:34PM -0700, Richard Johannesson wrote:
> Which XML libraries did you decide to use?
>  Pyana? [seems useful]
>  PIRXX? [seems redundant]
>  4Suite? [top condender]
>  PyXML? [seems like a must]

  You may want to look at libxml2/libxslt Python too
  http://xmlsoft.org/python.html

Daniel

-- 
Daniel Veillard      | Red Hat Network https://rhn.redhat.com/
veillard@redhat.com  | libxml GNOME XML XSLT toolkit  http://xmlsoft.org/
http://veillard.com/ | Rpmfind RPM search engine http://rpmfind.net/

From uche.ogbuji at fourthought.com  Fri Aug 15 08:11:41 2003
From: uche.ogbuji at fourthought.com (Uche Ogbuji)
Date: Fri Aug 15 09:52:36 2003
Subject: [XML-SIG] Python / XML / XSLT vs. Cocoon for website server side 
In-Reply-To: Message from Dave Kuhlman <dkuhlman@cutter.rexx.com> of "Thu,
	14 Aug 2003 14:57:08 PDT." <20030814145708.A94047@cutter.rexx.com> 
Message-ID: <20030815131146.A87C81340B8@borgia.local>

> >  - Have logic done in XSLT where possible
> 
> Ha. Ha. Ha.  Only a sick pervert would make a joke like that.
> 
> Can someone who has tried doing logic in XSLT stylesheets give a
> bit of insight on how to do logic in XSLT?  My understanding is
> that XSLT is good for recursive pattern matching and generation of
> content from patterns/templates, but not good once you go beyond
> that.  Can someone confirm that or show how complex logic is done
> in XSLT stylesheets?  Would that logic be readable and
> maintainable?

Depends on just what sort of "logic".  Mike Olson, for example, wrote a 
Web-based cribbage game in XSLT (as a 4Suite demo).  I'm seen even more 
outrageous things.  I think that the balance between what should go into the 
templates and what should go into support code is largely a matter of taste, 
and XSLT is certainly far more sophisticated than the average templating 
language.


> > Here are the assumptions I'm making:
> >  - XML to HTML transformations via XSLT will provide good platform
> > independence. .Net, J2EE, Python all support XSLT. So, if required to move
> > to different platform, this should be possible
> 
> Not to try to talk you out of XSLT, but there are other ways to
> gain platform independence.  Python is one good way.

I think he's including language in his concept of platform, which is not 
unreasonable.  XSLT does have the advantage that it is implemented in many 
languages.


> >  - XSLT/XML can generate just about any html page a CSS/template engine can
> 
> If you are saying that XSLT is a suitable tool for generating *any*
> HTML from XML, I'd be skeptical.  My belief is that there are
> complex transformations for which XSLT would *not* be suitable. 
> Again, is there an XSLT expert that can give an evaluation here?

As I mentioned, XSLT is more sophisticated than most other templating tools.  
Don't forget XSLT's extension framework.  I wouldn't say it can generate *any* 
Web page (way too strong a statement), but I would say it can generate almost 
any Web page I have personally encountered.


> > Is there much consulting work for XML/Python? Current customers are pretty
> > much exclusively ASP / ASP.net.

I wouldn't say there were many Python/XML customers out there.  But as with 
everything, it depends on where/how you look.


-- 
Uche Ogbuji                                    Fourthought, Inc.
http://uche.ogbuji.net    http://4Suite.org    http://fourthought.com
Introducing Anobind - http://www.xml.com/pub/a/2003/08/13/py-xml.html
XML Topic Maps by the book - http://www-106.ibm.com/developerworks/xml/library/
x-think19.html
Charming Jython - http://www-106.ibm.com/developerworks/java/library/j-jython.h
tml
Python, Web services, and XSLT - http://www-106.ibm.com/developerworks/xml/libr
ary/ws-pyth13/
Perspective on XML: What is this 'agility'? - http://www.adtmag.com/article.asp
?id=8004



From uche.ogbuji at fourthought.com  Fri Aug 15 08:13:41 2003
From: uche.ogbuji at fourthought.com (Uche Ogbuji)
Date: Fri Aug 15 09:54:42 2003
Subject: [XML-SIG] Python / XML / XSLT vs. Cocoon for website server side 
In-Reply-To: Message from "Thomas B. Passin" <tpassin@comcast.net> of "Thu,
	14 Aug 2003 22:22:07 EDT." <002901c362d4$06cf8d00$6401a8c0@tbp1> 
Message-ID: <20030815131347.213121340B8@borgia.local>

> [Richard Johannesson]
> 
> > I am laying out a new medium size website that I was hoping I could use
> > Python / XML on the server side. This is a brand new site, no e-commerce
> at
> > first, but will add later. Site will need the blog, wiki, group calendar,
> > and other basic features. The size of site will initially about 50 pages,
> > but should grow quickly to few thousand pages. Much of the content will be
> > produced by users. So, main concern is being able to apply stylesheets to
> > content to keep a consistent look.
> 
> Why don't you just use Plone?  No need to reinvent the wheel.  Plone is
> built on Zope, so there is your Python.  It does not use xslt, but its page
> templates are in ZPT, which is actually an xml-based language.  Plone, as a
> content management system,  should do anything you need, and you can always
> extend it (Python programming and ZPT) as needed.  Plone uses an extensive
> set of skins to get its appearance, and the page layout and appearance can
> be massively customized if you want.

He is trying to avoid framework lock-in, which is why I haven't suggested the 
4Suite repository.  If you choose Zope/Plone (or Cocoon, for that matter), 
you'd better be willing to stick with Zope/Plone.


-- 
Uche Ogbuji                                    Fourthought, Inc.
http://uche.ogbuji.net    http://4Suite.org    http://fourthought.com
Introducing Anobind - http://www.xml.com/pub/a/2003/08/13/py-xml.html
XML Topic Maps by the book - http://www-106.ibm.com/developerworks/xml/library/
x-think19.html
Charming Jython - http://www-106.ibm.com/developerworks/java/library/j-jython.h
tml
Python, Web services, and XSLT - http://www-106.ibm.com/developerworks/xml/libr
ary/ws-pyth13/
Perspective on XML: What is this 'agility'? - http://www.adtmag.com/article.asp
?id=8004

-- 
Uche Ogbuji                                    Fourthought, Inc.
http://uche.ogbuji.net    http://4Suite.org    http://fourthought.com
Introducing Anobind - http://www.xml.com/pub/a/2003/08/13/py-xml.html
XML Topic Maps by the book - http://www-106.ibm.com/developerworks/xml/library/
x-think19.html
Charming Jython - http://www-106.ibm.com/developerworks/java/library/j-jython.h
tml
Python, Web services, and XSLT - http://www-106.ibm.com/developerworks/xml/libr
ary/ws-pyth13/
Perspective on XML: What is this 'agility'? - http://www.adtmag.com/article.asp
?id=8004



From uche.ogbuji at fourthought.com  Fri Aug 15 08:18:15 2003
From: uche.ogbuji at fourthought.com (Uche Ogbuji)
Date: Fri Aug 15 09:59:35 2003
Subject: [XML-SIG] Python / XML / XSLT vs. Cocoon for website server side 
In-Reply-To: Message from "Richard Johannesson" <rtjohan@syspres.com> of "Thu,
	14 Aug 2003 23:27:34 PDT." <000301c362f6$51239870$4601a8c0@rjc800> 
Message-ID: <20030815131820.4C3081340B8@borgia.local>

> Craeg,
> 
> Good article you put together - very informative. It definetly helps - now
> I'll have to take another look at Zope.
> 
> Does Zope make it as easy to keep a strict seperation between the content /
> presentation / business logic that Cocoon promises? Were you able to
> implement the XSLT transformation in Zope with your modifications that
> Cocoon offers? If you were forced to move to Cocoon - how much recoding
> would be needed? 20%? 50%? 80%?
> 
> Did you consider any of the following [+my impressions]:
>  Webware? [very nicely done, concerned not large enough user community -
> prefer XSLT over PSP]
>  Quixote? [seemed like to choice, but prefer standard markup like XSLT]
>  CherryPy? [prefer XSLT]
>  Spyce?
>  Cheetah?
>  Mod_python? [will use in production release]
>  Albatross? [?]
>  Twisted? [?]

I want to point out that 4Suite has a server framework built-in that is 
heavily XSLT-driven.  If you have a strong preference for XSLT, I would 
recommend trying it.  We're just about to announce the 1.0 beta, and it's not 
as polished as many of the other entrants above, but it's in very active 
development and you should find good support on the mailing list.

It does provide for separation of content and presentation using chained 
stylesheets.  There has been a lot of discussion of that on the mailing list.


-- 
Uche Ogbuji                                    Fourthought, Inc.
http://uche.ogbuji.net    http://4Suite.org    http://fourthought.com
Introducing Anobind - http://www.xml.com/pub/a/2003/08/13/py-xml.html
XML Topic Maps by the book - http://www-106.ibm.com/developerworks/xml/library/
x-think19.html
Charming Jython - http://www-106.ibm.com/developerworks/java/library/j-jython.h
tml
Python, Web services, and XSLT - http://www-106.ibm.com/developerworks/xml/libr
ary/ws-pyth13/
Perspective on XML: What is this 'agility'? - http://www.adtmag.com/article.asp
?id=8004

-- 
Uche Ogbuji                                    Fourthought, Inc.
http://uche.ogbuji.net    http://4Suite.org    http://fourthought.com
Introducing Anobind - http://www.xml.com/pub/a/2003/08/13/py-xml.html
XML Topic Maps by the book - http://www-106.ibm.com/developerworks/xml/library/
x-think19.html
Charming Jython - http://www-106.ibm.com/developerworks/java/library/j-jython.h
tml
Python, Web services, and XSLT - http://www-106.ibm.com/developerworks/xml/libr
ary/ws-pyth13/
Perspective on XML: What is this 'agility'? - http://www.adtmag.com/article.asp
?id=8004



From jjl at pobox.com  Fri Aug 15 18:58:30 2003
From: jjl at pobox.com (John J Lee)
Date: Fri Aug 15 12:58:37 2003
Subject: [XML-SIG] Python / XML / XSLT vs. Cocoon for website server side
In-Reply-To: <002a01c362b8$7ce3e340$4601a8c0@rjc800>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0308151743210.442-100000@alice>

On Thu, 14 Aug 2003, Richard Johannesson wrote:
[...]
> >Can someone who has tried doing logic in XSLT stylesheets give a
> >bit of insight on how to do logic in XSLT?  My understanding is
> >that XSLT is good for recursive pattern matching and generation of
> >content from patterns/templates, but not good once you go beyond
> >that.  Can someone confirm that or show how complex logic is done
> >in XSLT stylesheets?  Would that logic be readable and
> >maintainable?
>
> I've just read that this is possible. Not looked into how its done yet. Only
> done some simple XSLT transformation so far - creating html doc from a few
> xml docs using XSLT. Thanks for the warning. Theoretically, if the logic can
> be stored in a language independent format - this sounds ideal. But, most
[...]

What does that L stand for in XSLT?  XSLT is a language.  The great thing
about XSLT is that everybody hates it equally <0.7 wink>.


> Just seems that XSLT will provide also language independence. Most major
> languages support XSLT. Trying to decide if its worth the cost in terms of

All major languages support python, too <0.2 wink>.

Surely, XSLT should be used when either: 1. it's clear that the problem
nicely fits XSLT's way of doing things 2. it turns out to be necessary in
order to interoperate with someone/something who doesn't use Python.
Otherwise, use Python.  This is just like any other 'little language' --
the 'X' in the name doesn't have magical properties.

[If that sounds like a rant, well, maybe it is, but it isn't really
directed against anyone here -- just the world in general ;-)]

Hmm, maybe there are some circumstances where XSLT has security advantages
too (but I think it's Turing-complete, isn't it)?


[...]
> Would be nice if some best practices could be created on Python / XML. Maybe
> if we get enough feedback, this might lead to something like that. Just too
> much confusion out there. One major strength Python has is its
> documentation. If it would go even further and start capturing best
> practices - it would be in a league of its own. Make it easier for newcomers
> to pick-up the language and start implementing things properly.

s/best practices/rules of thumb/, and I might agree.


John


From rtjohan at syspres.com  Fri Aug 15 11:37:09 2003
From: rtjohan at syspres.com (Richard Johannesson)
Date: Fri Aug 15 13:41:36 2003
Subject: [XML-SIG] Python XML / XSLT libraries
In-Reply-To: <20030815084011.M9929@redhat.com>
Message-ID: <000001c36353$db6bdb20$3d01a8c0@rjc800>

Daniel,

Thanks for the input - looks like solid libraries.

Is there some prior discussion / article that has reviewed the different
python XML libraries?

What would be considered the heavy duty full-feature XML/XSLT library
contenders?
 - Pyana (v. 0.8.0)
 - 4Suite (v. 1.26)
 - libxml2+libxslt
 - ?

Do you use all, or just one of these? My impression is that you would always
add PyXML and before adding any one of the ones above. Is this correct?

Regards,
Richard

>-----Original Message-----
>From: Daniel Veillard [mailto:veillard@redhat.com]
>Sent: Friday, August 15, 2003 5:40 AM
>To: Richard Johannesson
>Cc: 'Craeg K Strong'; xml-sig@python.org
>Subject: Re: [XML-SIG] Python / XML / XSLT vs. Cocoon for
>website server side
>
>
>On Thu, Aug 14, 2003 at 11:27:34PM -0700, Richard Johannesson wrote:
>> Which XML libraries did you decide to use?
>>  Pyana? [seems useful]
>>  PIRXX? [seems redundant]
>>  4Suite? [top condender]
>>  PyXML? [seems like a must]
>
>  You may want to look at libxml2/libxslt Python too
>  http://xmlsoft.org/python.html
>
>Daniel
>
>--
>Daniel Veillard      | Red Hat Network https://rhn.redhat.com/
>veillard@redhat.com  | libxml GNOME XML XSLT toolkit
http://xmlsoft.org/
http://veillard.com/ | Rpmfind RPM search engine http://rpmfind.net/




From tpassin at comcast.net  Fri Aug 15 19:47:32 2003
From: tpassin at comcast.net (Thomas B. Passin)
Date: Fri Aug 15 18:42:16 2003
Subject: [XML-SIG] Python / XML / XSLT vs. Cocoon for website server side 
References: <20030815131347.213121340B8@borgia.local>
Message-ID: <001e01c3637f$36d15230$6401a8c0@tbp1>

[Uche Ogbuji]
> > Why don't you just use Plone?  No need to reinvent the wheel.  Plone is
> > built on Zope, so there is your Python.  It does not use xslt, but its
page
> > templates are in ZPT, which is actually an xml-based language.  Plone,
as a
> > content management system,  should do anything you need, and you can
always
> > extend it (Python programming and ZPT) as needed.  Plone uses an
extensive
> > set of skins to get its appearance, and the page layout and appearance
can
> > be massively customized if you want.
>
> He is trying to avoid framework lock-in, which is why I haven't suggested
the
> 4Suite repository.  If you choose Zope/Plone (or Cocoon, for that matter),
> you'd better be willing to stick with Zope/Plone.

Oh, sure, I know, I was just suggesting reconsidering, only because there is
a lot to build when you roll your own (as you know better than me!).

Cheers,

Tom P



From uche.ogbuji at fourthought.com  Fri Aug 15 22:36:21 2003
From: uche.ogbuji at fourthought.com (Uche Ogbuji)
Date: Sat Aug 16 00:05:24 2003
Subject: [XML-SIG] Python XML / XSLT libraries 
In-Reply-To: Message from "Richard Johannesson" <rtjohan@syspres.com> of "Fri,
	15 Aug 2003 10:37:09 PDT." <000001c36353$db6bdb20$3d01a8c0@rjc800> 
Message-ID: <20030816033627.CF1531340B8@borgia.local>

> Daniel,
> 
> Thanks for the input - looks like solid libraries.
> 
> Is there some prior discussion / article that has reviewed the different
> python XML libraries?
> 
> What would be considered the heavy duty full-feature XML/XSLT library
> contenders?
>  - Pyana (v. 0.8.0)
>  - 4Suite (v. 1.26)
>  - libxml2+libxslt
>  - ?
> 
> Do you use all, or just one of these? My impression is that you would always
> add PyXML and before adding any one of the ones above. Is this correct?

None of these require PyXML.


-- 
Uche Ogbuji                                    Fourthought, Inc.
http://uche.ogbuji.net    http://4Suite.org    http://fourthought.com
Introducing Anobind - http://www.xml.com/pub/a/2003/08/13/py-xml.html
XML Topic Maps by the book - http://www-106.ibm.com/developerworks/xml/library/
x-think19.html
Charming Jython - http://www-106.ibm.com/developerworks/java/library/j-jython.h
tml
Python, Web services, and XSLT - http://www-106.ibm.com/developerworks/xml/libr
ary/ws-pyth13/
Perspective on XML: What is this 'agility'? - http://www.adtmag.com/article.asp
?id=8004



From mike at skew.org  Fri Aug 15 23:44:39 2003
From: mike at skew.org (Mike Brown)
Date: Sat Aug 16 00:44:38 2003
Subject: [XML-SIG] Python XML / XSLT libraries
In-Reply-To: <20030816033627.CF1531340B8@borgia.local> "from Uche Ogbuji at Aug
	15, 2003 09:36:21 pm"
Message-ID: <200308160444.h7G4idJI080582@chilled.skew.org>

> > What would be considered the heavy duty full-feature XML/XSLT library
> > contenders?
> >  - Pyana (v. 0.8.0)
> >  - 4Suite (v. 1.26)

v. 1.26? :)

From rtjohan at syspres.com  Sat Aug 16 12:42:55 2003
From: rtjohan at syspres.com (Richard Johannesson)
Date: Sat Aug 16 14:47:18 2003
Subject: [XML-SIG] Python / XML / XSLT vs. Cocoon for website server side 
In-Reply-To: <001e01c3637f$36d15230$6401a8c0@tbp1>
Message-ID: <000e01c36426$35acfc90$3d01a8c0@rjc800>

Thanks everyone for the input and warnings about XSLT.

Basically at the point where need to give Zope and Webware a try.

Will also need to try to generate more substantial html pages using XSLT and
try to figure the right balance between speed of development, scalability,
and maintainability.

Nice to know there is a knowledgable and helpful user community behind
Python.

Thanks again,
Richard



From cstrong at arielpartners.com  Sat Aug 16 18:17:46 2003
From: cstrong at arielpartners.com (Craeg K Strong)
Date: Sat Aug 16 17:18:20 2003
Subject: [XML-SIG] Python / XML / XSLT vs. Cocoon for website server side
In-Reply-To: <000301c362f6$51239870$4601a8c0@rjc800>
References: <000301c362f6$51239870$4601a8c0@rjc800>
Message-ID: <3F3E9F7A.4070902@arielpartners.com>

I did not consider the other frameworks you mentioned.  One of my 
biggest concerns was a large and active user/contributor
base, and copious documentation.   Check out the zope.org site, and you 
will observe new Zope plugins getting created at a rate of several per week.
Few other platforms can match that: Perl, PHP, Java, Microsoft.  I 
prefer a real language, so PHP is out.  I prefer Python to
Perl, so that's out.  Java is great for the back-end, but too cumbersome 
and verbose for the front end.  I want to avoid
lockin, so Microsoft is out.  That leaves Python/Zope by a process of 
elimination!

Here is what I use/recommend today for Zope:

- Adaptive Persistence (APE) gets you from Zope to RDBMS, file system, 
CVS, etc.
  http://hathaway.freezope.org/Software/Ape

- ZopeXMLMethods gives you XPath, XSLT, DTD Validation
  http://zopexmlmethods.sourceforge.net

You can start with bare Zope 2.7 or Plone, depending on your needs.  
Plone is maturing really rapidly,
and the documentation is getting better.   This means that the cost vs 
benefit ratio for adopting Plone is
getting more and more favorable.  I am still using bare Zope myself, but 
would probably recommend Plone
to my corporate customers.

I use Zope Page Templates for all presentation.  Many of my web pages 
have no reusable content to speak of,
and they are just straightforward ZPT.  However, all reusable pieces of 
content are in XML, stored under
version control in CVS.  I grab what I need using ZopeXMLMethods.  It 
enables me to grab pieces from
multiple XML sources via XPath and transform them with XSLT.  It is a 
wrapper/adapter that works with most
of the XSLT libraries you mentioned (4suite, libxslt, Pyana, Sablotron).

Sounds great, what's the catch?

Well, there's still lots to do.  Here is what I am working on:

- extend ZopeXMLMethods to cover other pieces of the XML spectrum (RDF, 
XInclude) and improve its use of the
underlying libraries (especially libxslt)

- extend APE to seamlessly adapt to VSS, Clearcase, CVS, etc., provide a 
layer on top for actual checkin/checkout
directly from Zope

- work with Norm Walsh to help streamline Docbook/XML (aka Docbook 5.0) 
for better ease of use

- select a technology to adapt from MS Word directly to Docbook/XML and 
enhance it with the ultimate goal
of non-lossy round-trip support (there are many free and commercial 
candidate technologies)

- Create another Zope adapter to the Java-based FO-to-PDF libraries, 
including FOP and RenderX/XEP.  Make this
adapter work just like ZopeXMLMethods or Plone Archetypes.

I think you see where I am going here.  With all of the above, you get 
Zope as a CMS platform able to consume
and produce content in any format, with full standards support (no 
lock-in).  Of course, one must learn Python and ZPT...

Incidentally, I recently compared ZPT to JSP/JSTL/JavaServer Faces and 
was appalled at the cruftiness of the
Java solutions.  ZPT is *way* cleaner and easier.  Learn ZPT and you 
will understand where JSP technology might be in two years.

Hope this helps,

--Craeg

Richard Johannesson wrote:

>Craeg,
>
>Good article you put together - very informative. It definetly helps - now
>I'll have to take another look at Zope.
>
>Does Zope make it as easy to keep a strict seperation between the content /
>presentation / business logic that Cocoon promises? Were you able to
>implement the XSLT transformation in Zope with your modifications that
>Cocoon offers? If you were forced to move to Cocoon - how much recoding
>would be needed? 20%? 50%? 80%?
>
>Did you consider any of the following [+my impressions]:
> Webware? [very nicely done, concerned not large enough user community -
>prefer XSLT over PSP]
> Quixote? [seemed like to choice, but prefer standard markup like XSLT]
> CherryPy? [prefer XSLT]
> Spyce?
> Cheetah?
> Mod_python? [will use in production release]
> Albatross? [?]
> Twisted? [?]
>
>Which XML libraries did you decide to use?
> Pyana? [seems useful]
> PIRXX? [seems redundant]
> 4Suite? [top condender]
> PyXML? [seems like a must]
>
>Thanks again,
>Richard
>
>  
>



From noreply at sourceforge.net  Sun Aug 17 14:29:33 2003
From: noreply at sourceforge.net (SourceForge.net)
Date: Sun Aug 17 16:29:36 2003
Subject: [XML-SIG] [ pyxml-Patches-790226 ] New README file
Message-ID: <E19oU9d-0006Zk-00@sc8-sf-web1.sourceforge.net>

Patches item #790226, was opened at 2003-08-17 15:29
Message generated for change (Tracker Item Submitted) made by Item Submitter
You can respond by visiting: 
https://sourceforge.net/tracker/?func=detail&atid=306473&aid=790226&group_id=6473

Category: Documentation
Group: None
Status: Open
Resolution: None
Priority: 5
Submitted By: neognomic (neognomic)
Assigned to: Nobody/Anonymous (nobody)
Summary: New README file

Initial Comment:
... the " README " file in the source targz is ...
outdated. 
RE: 
" Recent versions of 4Suite are pyxml-agnostic. So you
should be able to use 4Suite's xslt and xpath with or
without pyxml. "
and
" 4Suite is designed to work with PyXML. ... "

etc., from recent posts on the mailing list.

A new README  file is attached. (Adjust it if you want,
of course...)


Have A  Great Day!
rj

Oh, BTW, using python-2.2.1 here...

----------------------------------------------------------------------

You can respond by visiting: 
https://sourceforge.net/tracker/?func=detail&atid=306473&aid=790226&group_id=6473

From jjl at pobox.com  Sun Aug 17 22:39:33 2003
From: jjl at pobox.com (John J Lee)
Date: Sun Aug 17 16:39:45 2003
Subject: [XML-SIG] Implementing 'live'-ness in a 4DOM fork.
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0308172129300.1718-100000@alice>

I want to implement live collections in a forked 4DOM.  OK, 'want' is
perhaps the wrong word :-(((  This is for use in a JavaScript/DOM/Python
binding I'm writing.

Does anybody have advice on the simplest approach?

I don't think I care about performance -- I'm only doing HTML.

I had thought that the simplest way would be to wrap NamedNodeMap,
NodeList and HTMLCollection (and HTMLOptionCollection, which doesn't
actually exist in 4DOM -- see below) in a wrapper that simply recomputes
everything every time an attribute is looked up, then delegates to the
standard 4DOM implementation.  However, these interfaces represent mutable
collections, which is going to mess up that approach: there are methods
like NamedNodeMap.removeNamedItem and attributes like
HTMLOptionCollection.length (which is *not* readonly).

Worse, I presume that when you remove an item from a NamedNodeMap, the
node tree gets updated.  I'm damned if I can tell from the standard,
though.  All it says is:

| NodeList and NamedNodeMap objects in the DOM are live; that is,
| changes to the underlying document structure are reflected in all
| relevant NodeList and NamedNodeMap objects. For example, if a DOM
| user gets a NodeList object containing the children of an Element,
| then subsequently adds more children to that element (or removes
| children, or modifies them), those changes are automatically
| reflected in the NodeList, without further action on the user's
| part. Likewise, changes to a Node in the tree are reflected in all
| references to that Node in NodeList and NamedNodeMap objects.

That tells me nothing about what happens when you remove a node from a
NamedNodeMap.  Still, I suppose there is no other sane interpretation than
the one I take above -- otherwise, what would happen if you made changes
from *both* the node tree *and* a collection reflecting that tree?

Given that two-way syncing of state is required between these collections
and the node tree, I can't see how to do this nicely with mutation events,
because you'd get infinite loops without special precautions.  In fact,
that might be the least of the problems -- using mutation events to do
this looks pretty painful anyway, even without this two-way syncing
requirement!

I suppose the simplest thing is to reimplement the collections so they
don't store any permanent state (which will require changes to all objects
that can create collections, too).  Slow, but I don't care.

BTW, in previous posts here about this, I notice that people have claimed
that only getElementsByTagName is affected here (because it has to
construct a NodeList that doesn't directly reflect the node tree
structure).  Looking at the source, though, I see that NodeList,
NamedNodeMap and HTMLCollection all call the UserDict / UserList
constructors, which create a new dict and a new list respectively. Unless
I missed something, that means none of these collections is live.  I don't
know whether this is considered a feature or a bug by people here, but it
could be trivially 'fixed', by just binding to self.data instead of
calling the constructor.

Also BTW, is the HTML DOM still being used by anyone?  I posted a
PyXML bug on SF (782470) about HTMLDocument.getElementsByName a while
ago -- appears quite broken, and no-one seems worried.  I also noticed
HTMLOptionsCollection is missing -- is that deliberate?


John


From mjais at gmx-gmbh.de  Mon Aug 18 09:35:07 2003
From: mjais at gmx-gmbh.de (Markus Jais)
Date: Mon Aug 18 02:33:33 2003
Subject: [XML-SIG] Python XML / XSLT libraries
In-Reply-To: <000001c36353$db6bdb20$3d01a8c0@rjc800>
References: <000001c36353$db6bdb20$3d01a8c0@rjc800>
Message-ID: <200308180835.07695.mjais@gmx-gmbh.de>

On Friday 15 August 2003 19:37, Richard Johannesson wrote:
> Daniel,
>
> Thanks for the input - looks like solid libraries.
>
> Is there some prior discussion / article that has reviewed the different
> python XML libraries?
>
> What would be considered the heavy duty full-feature XML/XSLT library
> contenders?
>  - Pyana (v. 0.8.0)
>  - 4Suite (v. 1.26)
>  - libxml2+libxslt
>  - ?

hi
I have not done to much with this libraries yet, but libxslt ist definitely 
the fastet I used. so if speed is an issue, you might want to use libxslt 
bindings

Markus


>
> Do you use all, or just one of these? My impression is that you would
> always add PyXML and before adding any one of the ones above. Is this
> correct?
>
> Regards,
> Richard
>
> >-----Original Message-----
>
> From: Daniel Veillard [mailto:veillard@redhat.com]
>
> >Sent: Friday, August 15, 2003 5:40 AM
> >To: Richard Johannesson
> >Cc: 'Craeg K Strong'; xml-sig@python.org
> >Subject: Re: [XML-SIG] Python / XML / XSLT vs. Cocoon for
> >website server side
> >
> >On Thu, Aug 14, 2003 at 11:27:34PM -0700, Richard Johannesson wrote:
> >> Which XML libraries did you decide to use?
> >>  Pyana? [seems useful]
> >>  PIRXX? [seems redundant]
> >>  4Suite? [top condender]
> >>  PyXML? [seems like a must]
> >
> >  You may want to look at libxml2/libxslt Python too
> >  http://xmlsoft.org/python.html
> >
> >Daniel
> >
> >--
> >Daniel Veillard      | Red Hat Network https://rhn.redhat.com/
> >veillard@redhat.com  | libxml GNOME XML XSLT toolkit
>
> http://xmlsoft.org/
> http://veillard.com/ | Rpmfind RPM search engine http://rpmfind.net/
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> XML-SIG maillist  -  XML-SIG@python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/xml-sig

-- 
Markus Jais
Software Developer
GMX Aktiengesellschaft
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From and-xml at doxdesk.com  Tue Aug 19 05:05:23 2003
From: and-xml at doxdesk.com (Andrew Clover)
Date: Tue Aug 19 00:18:29 2003
Subject: [XML-SIG] Implementing 'live'-ness in a 4DOM fork.
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0308172129300.1718-100000@alice>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0308172129300.1718-100000@alice>
Message-ID: <20030819040523.GA12024@doxdesk.com>

John J Lee <jjl@pobox.com> wrote:

> Does anybody have advice on the simplest approach?

The way live collections are done in pxdom is to give each Element node
a sequence number. Every time an element is appended, inserted, removed,
replaced or renamed, the number of the parent is incremented, along with the
numbers of each of the parent's ancestor nodes.

NodeListByTagName then recalculates its internal list only when the node
that generated it (a Document or Element) has a higher sequence number than
the last time it was calculated.

pxdom is a DOM Level 3 Core implementation only; Level 2 HTML would have a
few other kinks. In particular, changing attributes on an 'a' element could
cause document.links and/or document.anchors to need updating, and smiliarly
for NodeLists returned by getElementsByName.

> However, these interfaces represent mutable collections

This only affects HTMLOptionsCollection.length, I know of no other way such
a list can be altered; there seems also to be no spec requirement to
implement writing to length (it can raise a NOT_SUPPORTED_ERR). Still, it's
not too hard to make this method alter its owner's children.

The Python DOM bindings say that a non-readonly NodeList may be written
through Python-list-style, however:

  a. this is silly, and ignored by both 4DOM and minidom;
  b. it doesn't necessarily apply to HTML[Options]Collections, which aren't
     NodeLists.

> Worse, I presume that when you remove an item from a NamedNodeMap, the
> node tree gets updated.

Yes. Normally NamedNodeMaps are implemented in such as way that there is
only one copy of the information. In pxdom, an Element's *Attribute* methods
simply delegate to Element.attributes.*Attribute*. Since it is not possible
to create a new NamedNodeMap onto the same information (like it is with
getElementsByTagName and NodeList), there is no problem with syncing
multiple views onto the same data.

> what would happen if you made changes
> from *both* the node tree *and* a collection reflecting that tree?

Collections are only lists of node references, there is no copying of
trees being done. You only have to worry about changes to the
collection itself, and the only valid change (that I know of) in
DOM Level 2 Core+HTML is HTMLOptionsCollection.length.

> BTW, in previous posts here about this, I notice that people have claimed
> that only getElementsByTagName is affected here (because it has to
> construct a NodeList that doesn't directly reflect the node tree
> structure).

That's the only method affected in DOM Level 2 Core. There are more in
DOM Level 2 HTML and Range, but these are not so commonly used.

> I don't know whether this is considered a feature or a bug by people here

It's considered a spec compliance issue by me, and listed as such at
http://pyxml.sf.net/topics/compliance.html, but it's a deliberate decision
as a trade-off for complexity and speed. And it's a decision some other
DOM implementations have made too.

-- 
Andrew Clover
mailto:and@doxdesk.com
http://www.doxdesk.com/

From Nicolas.Chauvat at logilab.fr  Tue Aug 19 15:38:26 2003
From: Nicolas.Chauvat at logilab.fr (Nicolas Chauvat)
Date: Tue Aug 19 08:39:03 2003
Subject: [XML-SIG] Python / XML / XSLT vs. Cocoon for website server side
In-Reply-To: <003d01c362eb$68698bd0$4601a8c0@rjc800>
References: <002901c362d4$06cf8d00$6401a8c0@tbp1>
	<003d01c362eb$68698bd0$4601a8c0@rjc800>
Message-ID: <20030819123826.GF25450@logilab.fr>

> The thing about Zope, my impression is that once you develop the app in Zope
> your pretty much stuck with that application server. Probably the case with

Use Plone + Archetypes. We recently extended archetypes so that it can import
and export any content type as XML... will be demoed and available this week
at logilab.org. Please ask for details, I'm lacking time right now for more
writing.


-- 
Nicolas Chauvat

http://www.logilab.com - "Mais o? est donc Ornicar ?" - LOGILAB, Paris (France)

From jason at museunlimited.com  Thu Aug 21 20:43:31 2003
From: jason at museunlimited.com (Jason Thompson)
Date: Fri Aug 22 10:53:17 2003
Subject: [XML-SIG] inline html using elemettree
Message-ID: <200308211943.31020.jason@museunlimited.com>

Here's a newbie question for someone who knows how to use elementtree.

I'm currently writing a blog-like system using elementtree to write the posts 
to xml. It's all working very nicely only the content element I created has 
to contain html markup. The problem is, when I write this to file using 
elementtree the html tags are escaped. Is there a way to write the posting to 
file using elementtree, but maintaining the html markup inside the content 
tags?

e.g.
<content><p>This is where the html content goes</p></content>

I've looked through the source code of the ElementTree module, but my newbie 
eyes can't find a clue as to how to do this. I've also scoured the Web to no 
avail.

Thanks in advance.

best,
Jason


From jjl at pobox.com  Wed Aug 20 01:45:46 2003
From: jjl at pobox.com (John J Lee)
Date: Fri Aug 22 17:39:49 2003
Subject: [XML-SIG] Implementing 'live'-ness in a 4DOM fork.
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0308200006410.2411-100000@alice>

[sorry for not replying in the same thread -- mail server went down
and hasn't forwarded Andrew's reply yet]

Andrew Clover <and-xml@doxdesk.com> wrote:
[...]

First, many thanks for your reply -- very much appreciated!

Your implementation in pxdom of the scheme you describe seems very
neat, so maybe I'll do the same.  And I get your point about Nodes
only appearing in at most one NamedNodeMap, which is clearly an
important thing to notice.

However, though the ECMAScript bindings don't require being able to
'write through' HTMLCollections by indexing, real JavaScript code (as
you're no doubt aware, looking at the JS stuff on your web page) does
do this:

myselect.options[0] = new Option();


Don't know if the same is true of NodeLists.  Hmm.


John


From jjl at pobox.com  Mon Aug 25 18:33:05 2003
From: jjl at pobox.com (John J Lee)
Date: Mon Aug 25 12:33:34 2003
Subject: [XML-SIG] Anybody using PyXML (4DOM) HTML DOM?
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0308251716490.962-100000@alice>

Does anybody use PyXML's (4DOM's) HTML DOM implementation (including the
implementors themselves)?

A couple of examples where it looks clearly broken, which makes me suspect
nobody but me is using it:


1. HTMLDocument.getElementsByTagName doesn't work at all for lower-case
attribute values (SF bug 782470):

#!/usr/bin/env python

from xml.dom.ext.reader import HtmlLib

doc = HtmlLib.FromHtml("""<html><head><title></title></head><body>
<form name="blah"></form>
</body></html>""")

# HTMLElement.getAttribute uppercases the name, but it was *stored*
# in lower case, so both fail.
print repr(doc.getElementsByName("blah"))
print repr(doc.getElementsByName("BLAH"))


I don't know how this should be fixed: case issues in HTML DOM seem
horribly complicated.


2. HTMLInputElement._get_type capitalisation is wrong.

xml/dom/html/HTMLInputElement.py says:

|     def _get_type(self):
|         return string.capitalize(self.getAttribute('TYPE'))


HTML DOM level 2 spec says:

| The type of control created (all lower case). See the type attribute
                               ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
| definition in HTML 4.01.


John


From jjl at pobox.com  Mon Aug 25 19:39:11 2003
From: jjl at pobox.com (John J Lee)
Date: Mon Aug 25 13:39:25 2003
Subject: [XML-SIG] Anybody using PyXML (4DOM) HTML DOM?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0308251716490.962-100000@alice>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0308251834550.1424-100000@alice>

On Mon, 25 Aug 2003, John J Lee wrote:
[...]
> 1. HTMLDocument.getElementsByTagName doesn't work at all for lower-case
> attribute values (SF bug 782470):

Attribute *names*, I should have said (eg. the 'name' in 'name="blah"' in
the example below).

Actually, this problem seems to be a parser bug: Sgmlop.HtmlParser does
setAttributeNS.  If you change that to setAttribute, it works.


> #!/usr/bin/env python
>
> from xml.dom.ext.reader import HtmlLib
>
> doc = HtmlLib.FromHtml("""<html><head><title></title></head><body>
> <form name="blah"></form>
> </body></html>""")
>
> # HTMLElement.getAttribute uppercases the name, but it was *stored*
> # in lower case, so both fail.
> print repr(doc.getElementsByName("blah"))
> print repr(doc.getElementsByName("BLAH"))
[...]


John


From jeremy.kloth at fourthought.com  Mon Aug 25 12:47:43 2003
From: jeremy.kloth at fourthought.com (Jeremy Kloth)
Date: Mon Aug 25 13:48:36 2003
Subject: [XML-SIG] Anybody using PyXML (4DOM) HTML DOM?
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0308251716490.962-100000@alice>
Message-ID: <009501c36b30$fcca3b60$f701a8c0@zeus>

John J Lee wrote:
> Does anybody use PyXML's (4DOM's) HTML DOM implementation (including the
> implementors themselves)?

To answer for the implementors, we (Fourthought) no longer use 4DOM nor any
of its components.  We stopped using it shortly after it was added to PyXML
for speed/memory issues.

It was last updated to the specification *BEFORE* XHTML was incorporated
into the HTML DOM spec (late 2000).  While there have been some tweaks to
get it to work with XHTML, support for it is spotty at best.

> A couple of examples where it looks clearly broken, which makes me suspect
> nobody but me is using it:

The bugs you found are right per the current spec, but as already stated,
when using the implemented spec
(http://www.w3.org/TR/2000/PR-DOM-Level-2-HTML-20000927) it behaves as
expected.

Currently I have niether the time nor desire to go through and update it to
the most recent spec.  If support for the latest specification is what you
want/need, you will probably need to update 4DOM's HTML on your own (or find
someone to volunteer).  Other developers for PyXML may feel differently,
though.

--
Jeremy Kloth
Fourthought, Inc. (http://fourthought.com/)
4Suite XML/RDF Platform (http://4suite.org/)



From jeremy.kloth at fourthought.com  Mon Aug 25 12:52:48 2003
From: jeremy.kloth at fourthought.com (Jeremy Kloth)
Date: Mon Aug 25 13:53:38 2003
Subject: [XML-SIG] Anybody using PyXML (4DOM) HTML DOM?
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0308251834550.1424-100000@alice>
Message-ID: <00a101c36b31$b29b7d50$f701a8c0@zeus>

John J Lee wrote:
> On Mon, 25 Aug 2003, John J Lee wrote:
> [...]
>> 1. HTMLDocument.getElementsByTagName doesn't work at all for lower-case
>> attribute values (SF bug 782470):
>
> Attribute *names*, I should have said (eg. the 'name' in 'name="blah"' in
> the example below).
>
> Actually, this problem seems to be a parser bug: Sgmlop.HtmlParser does
> setAttributeNS.  If you change that to setAttribute, it works.
>

The setAttributeNS method was added to support reading of HTML documents as
XML documents.  This goes back to the spotty support for XHTML I mentioned
in my previous post.  Looking at the code, I think this problem can be fixed
by overriding setAttributeNS on the HTMLElement much like createElementNS on
the HTMLDocument.

--
Jeremy Kloth
Fourthought, Inc. (http://fourthought.com/)
4Suite XML/RDF Platform (http://4suite.org/)



From jjl at pobox.com  Mon Aug 25 20:02:28 2003
From: jjl at pobox.com (John J Lee)
Date: Mon Aug 25 14:02:49 2003
Subject: [XML-SIG] Anybody using PyXML (4DOM) HTML DOM?
In-Reply-To: <00a101c36b31$b29b7d50$f701a8c0@zeus>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0308251900390.1424-100000@alice>

On Mon, 25 Aug 2003, Jeremy Kloth wrote:
> John J Lee wrote:
[...]
> The setAttributeNS method was added to support reading of HTML documents as
> XML documents.  This goes back to the spotty support for XHTML I mentioned
> in my previous post.  Looking at the code, I think this problem can be fixed
> by overriding setAttributeNS on the HTMLElement much like createElementNS on
> the HTMLDocument.

Yes, I agree -- I just realised this and posted another comment on the
bug to that effect.

Thanks for the info about the status of 4DOM.


John


From ddooss at wp.pl  Tue Aug 26 21:31:42 2003
From: ddooss at wp.pl (Domel)
Date: Tue Aug 26 14:55:32 2003
Subject: [XML-SIG] BarML
Message-ID: <14026588031.20030826203142@wp.pl>

I write new XML language - BarML. BarML is to make Side Navigation
Bar like in HTML/XHTML in <link /> element with rel attribute (for
example <link rel="first" tyle="text/html" href="first.html" />. But
BarML has more possibilities that <link /> element. We can create new
folder (for example not only rel="bookmark" ) and named it how we
want. We can also create links and maned it how we want too. And all
folders and links we can set in bar how we want.
Most sides have own navigation and it different that rel value and in
BarML there are not this problem.

Can I publish my specyfication on your web (like XBEL)?

Best wishes,

Dominik Tomaszuk



From noreply at sourceforge.net  Wed Aug 27 05:56:12 2003
From: noreply at sourceforge.net (SourceForge.net)
Date: Wed Aug 27 07:56:16 2003
Subject: [XML-SIG] [ pyxml-Bugs-795917 ] Windows installer requires Admin
	privileges
Message-ID: <E19ryuK-0005if-00@sc8-sf-web1.sourceforge.net>

Bugs item #795917, was opened at 2003-08-27 11:56
Message generated for change (Tracker Item Submitted) made by Item Submitter
You can respond by visiting: 
https://sourceforge.net/tracker/?func=detail&atid=106473&aid=795917&group_id=6473

Category: None
Group: None
Status: Open
Resolution: None
Priority: 5
Submitted By: Sascha Silbe (sascha_silbe)
Assigned to: Nobody/Anonymous (nobody)
Summary: Windows installer requires Admin privileges

Initial Comment:
On Windows, Python 2.3 can be installed as a normal user, but the PyXML installer complains about not having Admin privileges and exits.



----------------------------------------------------------------------

You can respond by visiting: 
https://sourceforge.net/tracker/?func=detail&atid=106473&aid=795917&group_id=6473

From Jean-Michel.Bruel at univ-pau.fr  Wed Aug 27 18:17:23 2003
From: Jean-Michel.Bruel at univ-pau.fr (Jean-Michel BRUEL)
Date: Wed Aug 27 11:22:38 2003
Subject: [XML-SIG] [UML2003] Call for Participation
Message-ID: <200308271517.h7RFHNX09077@univ-pau.fr>

[Apologizes if you receive multiple copies of this call]
%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
                         Call for Participation
                 Sixth International Conference on 
               UML - Modeling Languages and Applications

                October 20-24, 2003, San Fransisco, USA
                    http://www.umlconference.org

        Co-sponsored by ACM SIGSOFT and the IEEE Computer Society
     Corporate Donors: IBM Rational, QSS Group Inc., NASA OSMA SARP

                              KEYNOTE SPEAKERS
                Peter Coad, Borland Software Corporation
                        Martin Fowler, ThoughtWorks
                        Nicolas Rouquette, NASA JPL

                                COMMITTEE
     General Chair: Grady Booch, Rational Software Corporation, USA
     Conference Chair: Jon Whittle, NASA Ames Research Center, USA
   Program Chair: Perdita Stevens, University of Edinburgh, Scotland

The UML conference is the premier venue for exchange of innovative 
technical ideas and experiences relating to the Unified Modeling 
Language (UML) and general modeling issues associated with 
software-intensive systems. UML 2003 takes place at a time when the 
Object Management Group (OMG) Model Driven Architecture (MDA) 
initiative is gaining use in industrial systems development.  In MDA,
models are the key artifacts of software development.  In addition, 
the new UML 2.0 standard is coming into use.  UML 2003 will provide 
a forum for lively and exciting discussions on current modeling 
issues.  The conference will include workshops and tutorials that 
address topics in UML 2.0, modeling of critical systems, 
aspect-oriented modeling, real-time and embedded systems modeling, 
and patterns.  See the web page for a list of tutorials and 
workshops.  
 
Workshops and tutorials will be held on Monday and Tuesday, with the 
conference technical program from Wednesday to Friday.  See the web
page for the conference schedule and program.  There will be
opportunities for holding Birds-of-a-Feather sessions during the 
conference.

UML 2003 will be held in the beautiful ocean-side city of San 
Francisco, California.

See the web page for registration information.  Early registration 
ends September 28, 2003.
%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%


From my.future at utoronto.ca  Sun Aug 31 05:23:19 2003
From: my.future at utoronto.ca (my.future@utoronto.ca)
Date: Sun Aug 31 04:24:05 2003
Subject: [XML-SIG] autoreply
Message-ID: <20030831082329Z930395-4558+10@bureau10.utcc.utoronto.ca>

Your message has been filed for future reading.
http://myfuture.utoronto.ca

From fredrik at pythonware.com  Sun Aug 31 12:58:05 2003
From: fredrik at pythonware.com (Fredrik Lundh)
Date: Sun Aug 31 05:58:15 2003
Subject: [XML-SIG] Re: inline html using elemettree
References: <200308211943.31020.jason@museunlimited.com>
Message-ID: <bisgrh$lca$1@sea.gmane.org>

Jason Thompson WROTE:

> I'm currently writing a blog-like system using elementtree to write the posts
> to xml. It's all working very nicely only the content element I created has
> to contain html markup. The problem is, when I write this to file using
> elementtree the html tags are escaped. Is there a way to write the posting to
> file using elementtree, but maintaining the html markup inside the content
> tags?
>
> e.g.
> <content><p>This is where the html content goes</p></content>

you cannot embed arbitrary HTML inside an XML document without
ending up with invalid XML.

if you cannot guarantee that the HTML is well-formed, you have to
escape it (this is how it's usually done in RSS, for example).

    from elementtree.ElementTree import Element

    content = Element("content")
    content.text = html_as_text

if you can guarantee that the HTML is well-formed, parse it to XML,
and embed the resulting XML structure:

    from elementtree.ElementTree import Element, XML

    content = Element("content")
    content.append(XML(html_as_text))

note that you can use the ElementTidy extension to convert arbitrary
HTML to well-formed (X)HTML; for details, see:

    http://effbot.org/zone/element-tidylib.htm

</F>