From tobias at caktusgroup.com Tue Nov 1 16:37:09 2011 From: tobias at caktusgroup.com (Tobias McNulty) Date: Tue, 1 Nov 2011 11:37:09 -0400 Subject: [TriZPUG] internship opportunity developing Django web apps Message-ID: Hi all, We're getting an early start on finding a web developer intern for next summer here at Caktus. This is a 3 month, paid, full time position and will provide broad exposure to many of the patterns and challenges common to web applications built in the Python programming language. Further details on the position and information on how to apply may be found here: http://www.caktusgroup.com/careers/2012-summer-internship/ Feel free to forward this on to any other individuals or groups that might be interested in this opportunity. Thanks! Tobias -- Tobias McNulty, Managing Member Caktus Consulting Group, LLC http://www.caktusgroup.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From nathan.alexander.rice at gmail.com Fri Nov 4 16:42:17 2011 From: nathan.alexander.rice at gmail.com (Nathan Rice) Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2011 11:42:17 -0400 Subject: [TriZPUG] web application best practices Message-ID: Hi all, Though I'm not normally a web guy, my job has me doing some web related stuff. As a result, I've been trying to translate standard software engineering best practices over as much as possible. Since this is a web-dev heavy group, I'd like to hear from other people about what they consider best practices. My current list of web application specific things... 1. separate client side and server side cleanly using services. 2. avoid generating client specific code on the server as much as possible. 3. separate out complex page elements into their own pages, then pull them in to a main page with an ajax load. 4. Do not put ANY logic in your request handlers. Just use them to collect and validate any URL arguments or post values, manage security, then call a separate function and generate a response from the result of that. 5. Avoid hand coding presentation functions for every class separately. Create middleware layers, and implement functions on divergent classes that let the middleware generate the proper results. Nathan From jim at ibang.com Fri Nov 4 18:18:08 2011 From: jim at ibang.com (Jim Allman) Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2011 13:18:08 -0400 Subject: [TriZPUG] web application best practices In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8CC8F1EC-874C-41E4-9B47-B14EE2B46921@ibang.com> Nathan, FWIW, I've built websites using a lot of different tools. Just a few comments woven into your list.. > 2. avoid generating client specific code on the server as much as possible. Agreed, though there are probably some systems that do a nice job of it. My main beef with lots of server-generated Javascript is that it tends to be awful to read and debug. I suppose the same is true of properly packed & minimized JS on a production site, but at least you have the option of developing and debugging with full source. One simpe solution is to generate a few key variables on the server and bake them into the page for client-side use. If so, do this in the HEAD element (or otherwise manage JS load order), and certainly keep this code separate from the rest of your Javascript. Oh, and if you're not already using it, please investigate Firebug (and similar tools) for client-side debugging and exploration. > 3. separate out complex page elements into their own pages, then pull > them in to a main page with an ajax load. Alternately, define these elements with separate templates or components on the server side, and embed them directly into the larger page as it's being generated. Each can be best, depends on the situation. But sure, a modular approach means you're *ready* to refresh the page via AJAX, so you have both options. > 4. Do not put ANY logic in your request handlers. Just use them to > collect and validate any URL arguments or post values, manage > security, then call a separate function and generate a response from > the result of that. That sounds like a lot of logic, actually. :) But if you mean isolate the specific response, sure, there are lots of ways of accomplish this. > 5. Avoid hand coding presentation functions for every class > separately. Create middleware layers, and implement functions on > divergent classes that let the middleware generate the proper results. My only caution here is that some of these measures can lead to a system that's nicely isolated, super-flexible, and a real pain to build and maintain. The more layers and levels of abstraction you add, the greater the learning curve for new developers. One nice thing about using an existing web framework is that a developer who knows its conventions can usually hit the ground running. And of course, a good framework will already encourage (or enforce) most of your best practices in some way. =jimA= From jj at email.unc.edu Fri Nov 4 18:41:19 2011 From: jj at email.unc.edu (Johnson, Josh) Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2011 17:41:19 +0000 Subject: [TriZPUG] web application best practices In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <6E5CB6B46F52EC4FB993E2466C5405F50E2C8292@ITS-MSXMBS3M.ad.unc.edu> Where are these ideas coming from? I've been doing this for a very long time, and the thing I've learned is that the best practice is one you can adhere to. :) That said, this is what I'd advise: - document everything; inline especially. - unit test everything. Other tests are highly encouraged, but not strictly necessary. Remember that a web app has a moving target for a platform, and has a lot of moving parts. Test early, test often. - separate concerns. This doesn't necessarily mean ajax or mvc or any particular model or pattern. The best choice is what makes items 1 and 2 easier. - I mentioned this earlier, but I'll reiterate: the web is a moving target. Try to output browser code (html, js, etc) that works or degrades well in most browsers. Follow the best practices for browser tech, use standards whenever feasible. This can be hard, but the end result is an application that is easier to use and test. - don't start with a framework (contraversal, I know, but don't learn the hard way like a lot of us have, especially if you care about best practice). Start with HTTP, CGI/WSGI, and select low-level frameworks that make the protocols easier. Then build up to larger frameworks that make integration or form generation or database persistence or authentication (etc, etc) easier. Remember that a fancy REST framework might seem like its saving you time, but when it breaks, how much time will you loose figuring out how it broke and trying to fix it? Know what the framework is really buying you, not just what bells and whistles you won't have to implement yourself. I'd say the same for client-side stuff, because I like futzing with prototypes and javascript implementational nuances ;) HTH, JJ ----- Original Message ----- From: Nathan Rice [mailto:nathan.alexander.rice at gmail.com] Sent: Friday, November 04, 2011 11:42 AM To: Triangle (North Carolina) Zope and Python Users Group Subject: [TriZPUG] web application best practices Hi all, Though I'm not normally a web guy, my job has me doing some web related stuff. As a result, I've been trying to translate standard software engineering best practices over as much as possible. Since this is a web-dev heavy group, I'd like to hear from other people about what they consider best practices. My current list of web application specific things... 1. separate client side and server side cleanly using services. 2. avoid generating client specific code on the server as much as possible. 3. separate out complex page elements into their own pages, then pull them in to a main page with an ajax load. 4. Do not put ANY logic in your request handlers. Just use them to collect and validate any URL arguments or post values, manage security, then call a separate function and generate a response from the result of that. 5. Avoid hand coding presentation functions for every class separately. Create middleware layers, and implement functions on divergent classes that let the middleware generate the proper results. Nathan _______________________________________________ TriZPUG mailing list TriZPUG at python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/trizpug http://trizpug.org is the Triangle Zope and Python Users Group From nathan.alexander.rice at gmail.com Fri Nov 4 19:14:20 2011 From: nathan.alexander.rice at gmail.com (Nathan Rice) Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2011 14:14:20 -0400 Subject: [TriZPUG] web application best practices In-Reply-To: <6E5CB6B46F52EC4FB993E2466C5405F50E2C8292@ITS-MSXMBS3M.ad.unc.edu> References: <6E5CB6B46F52EC4FB993E2466C5405F50E2C8292@ITS-MSXMBS3M.ad.unc.edu> Message-ID: Unit tests are sort of a given (at least one would hope). If you look at most of my personal best practices, they directly address making testing easier :) I *HATE* most frameworks. Flask was the first framework-ish thing I saw that didn't make my stomach turn. I played with doing development using werkzeug but I found that the stuff I was doing was fairly Flask like, and good coders only re-invent the wheel as a last resort. Nathan On Fri, Nov 4, 2011 at 1:41 PM, Johnson, Josh wrote: > Where are these ideas coming from? > > I've been doing this for a very long time, and the thing I've learned is that the best practice is one you can adhere to. :) > > That said, this is what I'd advise: > > - document everything; inline especially. > - unit test everything. Other tests are highly encouraged, but not strictly necessary. Remember that a web app has a moving target for a platform, and has a lot of moving parts. Test early, test often. > - separate concerns. This doesn't necessarily mean ajax or mvc or any particular model or pattern. The best choice is what makes items 1 and 2 easier. > - I mentioned this earlier, but I'll reiterate: the web is a moving target. Try to output browser code (html, js, etc) that works or degrades well in most browsers. Follow the best practices for browser tech, use standards whenever feasible. This can be hard, but the end result is an application that is easier to use and test. > - don't start with a framework (contraversal, I know, but don't learn the hard way like a lot of us have, especially if you care about best practice). Start with HTTP, CGI/WSGI, and select low-level frameworks that make the protocols easier. Then build up to larger frameworks that make integration or form generation or database persistence or authentication (etc, etc) easier. Remember that a fancy REST framework might seem like its saving you time, but when it breaks, how much time will you loose figuring out how it broke and trying to fix it? Know what the framework is really buying you, not just what bells and whistles you won't have to implement yourself. I'd say the same for client-side stuff, because I like futzing with prototypes and javascript implementational nuances ;) > > HTH, > JJ > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Nathan Rice [mailto:nathan.alexander.rice at gmail.com] > Sent: Friday, November 04, 2011 11:42 AM > To: Triangle (North Carolina) Zope and Python Users Group > Subject: [TriZPUG] web application best practices > > Hi all, > > Though I'm not normally a web guy, my job has me doing some web > related stuff. ?As a result, I've been trying to translate standard > software engineering best practices over as much as possible. ?Since > this is a web-dev heavy group, I'd like to hear from other people > about what they consider best practices. > > My current list of web application specific things... > > 1. separate client side and server side cleanly using services. > 2. avoid generating client specific code on the server as much as possible. > 3. separate out complex page elements into their own pages, then pull > them in to a main page with an ajax load. > 4. Do not put ANY logic in your request handlers. ?Just use them to > collect and validate any URL arguments or post values, manage > security, then call a separate function and generate a response from > the result of that. > 5. Avoid hand coding presentation functions for every class > separately. ?Create middleware layers, and implement functions on > divergent classes that let the middleware generate the proper results. > > > Nathan > _______________________________________________ > TriZPUG mailing list > TriZPUG at python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/trizpug > http://trizpug.org is the Triangle Zope and Python Users Group > _______________________________________________ > TriZPUG mailing list > TriZPUG at python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/trizpug > http://trizpug.org is the Triangle Zope and Python Users Group > From dragonstrider at gmail.com Fri Nov 4 19:17:06 2011 From: dragonstrider at gmail.com (Joseph S. Tate) Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2011 14:17:06 -0400 Subject: [TriZPUG] web application best practices In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: After nearly 12 years building web applications, I've only just recently realized how to do things according to your list. It's too easy to blur the lines between separation of concerns in web dev, and too few developers are well trained in the art. Discipline is definitely required. Using a framework like Django or Turbogears will break your spirit because they are not built for separation of concerns to the extent that you describe. You will also be discouraged by the deployment options compared to CGI or PHP, but Python makes a a great language for web development despite these things. One thing you should add to that list though is some sort of offline processing capability. Eventually you'll have to send email or render images and you're going to want to do that asynchronously. Also you're going to want to implement caching, but if you're adding caching at a handler level or lower, you're probably doing something wrong. Think Varnish first, then memcache. If you've built a SOA, you can use varnish at the service layer for incredible speed. A few words of caution. Make sure you can use AJAX before going down that road. If not, don't give up on the (Service Oriented Architecture) SOA, but move your page assembly to an intermediate web server. Put your caches as close to the user as possible. When you learn about REST, don't treat it as the be all end all. Streamlining specific operations outside of your REST API is a best practice. REST is great for generic API, but doesn't solve all problems, and CAN'T solve problems like wholesale object modification. Some will try to convince you that WSGI is the best thing to happen to web development since PHP, but in practice it's just a pluggable dispatching mechanism, and a recursive one at that. WSGI has some very notable limitations, and doesn't actually free you from having to do real application dispatch. Finally, don't fear to learn JavaScript. It's not a bad language. It's not OO though, so don't try to fit that shoe on it until you understand the prototype aspects. Here's my preferred tool stack these days: Server: Varnish - http protocol level caching RabbitMQ + Celery - offline processing cherrypy - application server. Easy to generate tools and engine plugins to do Authentication and Authorization, page rendering, and other necessaries without having to learn the wsgi stack, but compatible with WSGI should you decide later that you need it. mako - HTML templating. Though my templates are so simple in my SOA that a string replacement would work fine. All I'm doing is setting some JS globals for the application to load. postgresql or mongo - data storage (SQL or No, depending on the application). Client: JavascriptMVC (contains tools for building MVC applications all browser side) jQuery (lots of slick plugins available, and makes cross browser testing less of a headache, but watch out for stuff that will break your separation of concerns) Joseph On Fri, Nov 4, 2011 at 11:42 AM, Nathan Rice < nathan.alexander.rice at gmail.com> wrote: > Hi all, > > Though I'm not normally a web guy, my job has me doing some web > related stuff. As a result, I've been trying to translate standard > software engineering best practices over as much as possible. Since > this is a web-dev heavy group, I'd like to hear from other people > about what they consider best practices. > > My current list of web application specific things... > > 1. separate client side and server side cleanly using services. > 2. avoid generating client specific code on the server as much as possible. > 3. separate out complex page elements into their own pages, then pull > them in to a main page with an ajax load. > 4. Do not put ANY logic in your request handlers. Just use them to > collect and validate any URL arguments or post values, manage > security, then call a separate function and generate a response from > the result of that. > 5. Avoid hand coding presentation functions for every class > separately. Create middleware layers, and implement functions on > divergent classes that let the middleware generate the proper results. > > > Nathan > _______________________________________________ > TriZPUG mailing list > TriZPUG at python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/trizpug > http://trizpug.org is the Triangle Zope and Python Users Group > -- Joseph Tate Personal e-mail: jtate AT dragonstrider DOT com Web: http://www.dragonstrider.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tobias at caktusgroup.com Fri Nov 4 19:22:46 2011 From: tobias at caktusgroup.com (Tobias McNulty) Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2011 14:22:46 -0400 Subject: [TriZPUG] Django sprint in North Carolina, Nov. 12-13, 2011 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi all, Just wanted to send out a quick reminder that we're hosting a Django sprint here in Chapel Hill / Carrboro, NC next weekend (November 12th and 13th). All the details and related links are below. If you're not local to Raleigh/Durham/Chapel Hill, you might consider organizing a parallel sprint in your area. The DSF and/or PSF can help reimburse for sprint expenses. Thanks and I hope to see you here or in the #django-sprint channel on Freenode! Cheers, Tobias On Tue, Oct 4, 2011 at 3:57 PM, Tobias McNulty wrote: > Hi All, > > We'd like to host another Django sprint here at Caktus the weekend of > November 12 and 13, 2011. A development sprint is an excuse to get > together, write some code, and have a good time doing it. The purpose of > this sprint will be to help finish features and push out bug fixes in > preparation for the Django 1.4 release. If you're interested in coming to > work on other open source Django-based projects, that's welcome too. > > We'll be meeting at the Caktus Group office and we'll be here to open the > doors at 9am both days. > > For more information, please check out the corresponding wiki page and > RSVP via Eventbrite if you're interested: > > https://code.djangoproject.com/wiki/Sprint201111TriangleNC > > http://nc-django-sprint-2011-11.eventbrite.com/ > > If you you can't make it to NC but would like to participate online, you > can RSVP by adding your name to the following page: > > https://code.djangoproject.com/wiki/Sprint201111 > > We're still looking for a few sponsors to help out with lunch and snacks, > so check out the sponsors section of the wiki and add yourself (or your > company) if you'd like to bring something. Feel free to drop me an email > off-list if you have any questions about sponsoring. > > Hope to see you there! > > Cheers, > Tobias > -- > Tobias McNulty, Managing Member > Caktus Consulting Group, LLC > http://www.caktusgroup.com > > -- Tobias McNulty, Managing Member Caktus Consulting Group, LLC http://www.caktusgroup.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tobias at caktusgroup.com Fri Nov 11 21:48:38 2011 From: tobias at caktusgroup.com (Tobias McNulty) Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2011 15:48:38 -0500 Subject: [TriZPUG] Django sprint in North Carolina, Nov. 12-13, 2011 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi All - Just a quick reminder that the Django sprint in NC is being held tomorrow and Sunday here in Carrboro. For more information: https://code.djangoproject.com/wiki/Sprint201111TriangleNC Join us on IRC in the #django-sprint channel if you can't make it in person. We'll be on from about 9am to 3:30pm EST (UTC-5) each day and Karen Tracey will be here for most of that time to help review and commit our patches (thanks Karen!). :-) Cheers, Tobias -- Tobias McNulty, Managing Member Caktus Consulting Group, LLC http://www.caktusgroup.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From akdom2001 at gmail.com Thu Nov 17 20:02:50 2011 From: akdom2001 at gmail.com (Alex) Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2011 14:02:50 -0500 Subject: [TriZPUG] More Meeting News In-Reply-To: References: <6E5CB6B46F52EC4FB993E2466C5405F50E2C20E4@ITS-MSXMBS3M.ad.unc.edu> <4E934F45.4040507@unc.edu> <4EA1E41D.8060605@unc.edu> Message-ID: I haven't heard anything from Chris Calloway as to whether tonight's meeting is still on, but I will be in EB2 room 1226 (that is on the first floor in the "left wing" if you're looking at the building from Oval Drive) at 6pm to hold the meeting with anyone who may appear :) . Note that the phone number posted on the event page http://trizpug.org/Members/cbc/nov-11-mtg is incorrect. If you need help with directions, the building is locked, or anything meeting related, my phone number is 919.259.0457 . And here is a Google Maps link to help: http://g.co/maps/sbfdq . There are 3 parking structures available for people now which are pretty much right next to EB2. For those who are used to going to TriLUG meetings, the Red Hat deck will likely be closed, just use one of the normal Centennial Campus 2 decks right next to the Red Hat deck or the new Hunt Library deck. If I completely missed something about this meeting... give me a heads up. I will be there just before 6 doing HW and will leave at 7:30 if no one shows up (so show up!). ~Alex Kesling On Fri, Oct 21, 2011 at 9:23 PM, Brian Curtin wrote: > On Fri, Oct 21, 2011 at 16:29, Chris Calloway wrote: > > On 10/21/2011 3:33 PM, Tobias McNulty wrote: > >> > >> Certainly! For those who may not have seen it yet, more info about the > >> referenced sprint is here: > >> > >> > >> > http://www.caktusgroup.com/blog/2011/10/10/caktus-hosts-3rd-django-sprint-north-carolina/ > > > > Thanks, Tobias. That's so exciting to hear. Report-outs from two big > sprints > > is a killer program for November. The updated meeting announcement: > > > > http://trizpug.org/Members/cbc/nov-11-mtg > > > > Remember that this coming Thursday Joseph is going to give us a talk on > PLY > > at the meeting in Chapel Hill: > > > > http://trizpug.org/Members/cbc/oct-11-mtg > > On the sprint topic, if you're ever in need of funding for sprints, > the PSF can reimburse up to $300 for sprint events. See > http://pythonsprints.com or email sprints at python.org. We've recently > sponsored both the European and US DjangoCons among other events, and > we're hoping to help more user groups like yours with their sprints. > _______________________________________________ > TriZPUG mailing list > TriZPUG at python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/trizpug > http://trizpug.org is the Triangle Zope and Python Users Group > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jmack at wm7d.net Fri Nov 18 04:15:43 2011 From: jmack at wm7d.net (Joseph Mack NA3T) Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2011 19:15:43 -0800 (PST) Subject: [TriZPUG] More Meeting News In-Reply-To: References: <6E5CB6B46F52EC4FB993E2466C5405F50E2C20E4@ITS-MSXMBS3M.ad.unc.edu> <4E934F45.4040507@unc.edu> <4EA1E41D.8060605@unc.edu> Message-ID: On Thu, 17 Nov 2011, Alex wrote: > I haven't heard anything from Chris Calloway as to whether > tonight's meeting is still on, but I will be in EB2 room > 1226 It was a quiet night. Just Alex and I. I called Chris to see if I'd accidentally come on the wrong night, but he said that indeed it was meeting night. Chris was still en-route back from sea-faring venture and so couldn't make the meeting. Joe -- Joseph Mack NA3T EME(B,D), FM05lw North Carolina jmack (at) wm7d (dot) net - azimuthal equidistant map generator at http://www.wm7d.net/azproj.shtml Homepage http://www.austintek.com/ It's GNU/Linux! From cbc at unc.edu Fri Nov 18 17:47:07 2011 From: cbc at unc.edu (Chris Calloway) Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2011 11:47:07 -0500 Subject: [TriZPUG] More Meeting News In-Reply-To: References: <6E5CB6B46F52EC4FB993E2466C5405F50E2C20E4@ITS-MSXMBS3M.ad.unc.edu> <4E934F45.4040507@unc.edu> <4EA1E41D.8060605@unc.edu> Message-ID: <4EC68C0B.8010004@unc.edu> On 11/17/2011 2:02 PM, Alex wrote: > I haven't heard anything from Chris Calloway as to whether tonight's > meeting is still on, but I will be in EB2 room 1226 (that is on the > first floor in the "left wing" if you're looking at the building from > Oval Drive) at 6pm to hold the meeting with anyone who may appear :) . Hi, sorry, I was on a ship when you emailed. But meetings are always on whether or not I say so or not. It's TriZPUG's meeting, not mine. Thanks for following up with info, Alex. Turns out Josh got there at 7pm. Don't know about the other presenter. We've had low turnout for Raleigh meetings for awhile. I think we lost interest from the Red Hat host because only three people showed up for the previous meeting there. How do Raleigh folks feel about having Raleigh meetings? If people are going to organize and host them, it would be good to know that there is interest. BTW, I did not intend to be out on a ship this week and had every intention of being at the meeting myself. You have to be ready to go out on the ship when the weather permits. I was down at the docks in Georgia for two weeks waiting for a gap in the offshore storm fronts. Believe me, I would rather have been here. When the Captain says we have a window of opportunity, that's when we ship out. I was rolling up I-95 on my way back when the meeting started. Got back late last night. The original plan was for me to be back a week ago. -- Sincerely, Chris Calloway http://nccoos.org/Members/cbc office: 3313 Venable Hall phone: (919) 599-3530 mail: Campus Box #3300, UNC-CH, Chapel Hill, NC 27599 From akdom2001 at gmail.com Fri Nov 18 17:58:34 2011 From: akdom2001 at gmail.com (Alex) Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2011 11:58:34 -0500 Subject: [TriZPUG] More Meeting News In-Reply-To: <4EC68C0B.8010004@unc.edu> References: <6E5CB6B46F52EC4FB993E2466C5405F50E2C20E4@ITS-MSXMBS3M.ad.unc.edu> <4E934F45.4040507@unc.edu> <4EA1E41D.8060605@unc.edu> <4EC68C0B.8010004@unc.edu> Message-ID: I was in the room from 6pm to 7:30pm, so if Josh got to campus, he apparently didn't get to the right room. Oh well. In any case, I'm perfectly willing to host Raleigh meetings and can do so as long as it isn't summer session. Hopefully we can figure out how to get more turnout in the future since the only meetings I seem to be able to make these days are in Raleigh. Next time (if I'm hosting) I'll try to send out reminders earlier (and hopefully we can have an assured presenter). It also seems that 7pm is a better time than 6 for most people, so I guess I'll shoot for that as well. ~Alex On Fri, Nov 18, 2011 at 11:47 AM, Chris Calloway wrote: > On 11/17/2011 2:02 PM, Alex wrote: > >> I haven't heard anything from Chris Calloway as to whether tonight's >> meeting is still on, but I will be in EB2 room 1226 (that is on the >> first floor in the "left wing" if you're looking at the building from >> Oval Drive) at 6pm to hold the meeting with anyone who may appear :) . >> > > Hi, sorry, I was on a ship when you emailed. But meetings are always on > whether or not I say so or not. It's TriZPUG's meeting, not mine. Thanks > for following up with info, Alex. Turns out Josh got there at 7pm. Don't > know about the other presenter. > > We've had low turnout for Raleigh meetings for awhile. I think we lost > interest from the Red Hat host because only three people showed up for the > previous meeting there. > > How do Raleigh folks feel about having Raleigh meetings? If people are > going to organize and host them, it would be good to know that there is > interest. > > BTW, I did not intend to be out on a ship this week and had every > intention of being at the meeting myself. You have to be ready to go out on > the ship when the weather permits. I was down at the docks in Georgia for > two weeks waiting for a gap in the offshore storm fronts. Believe me, I > would rather have been here. When the Captain says we have a window of > opportunity, that's when we ship out. I was rolling up I-95 on my way back > when the meeting started. Got back late last night. The original plan was > for me to be back a week ago. > > > -- > Sincerely, > > Chris Calloway http://nccoos.org/Members/cbc > office: 3313 Venable Hall phone: (919) 599-3530 > mail: Campus Box #3300, UNC-CH, Chapel Hill, NC 27599 > ______________________________**_________________ > TriZPUG mailing list > TriZPUG at python.org > http://mail.python.org/**mailman/listinfo/trizpug > http://trizpug.org is the Triangle Zope and Python Users Group > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jim at ibang.com Fri Nov 18 18:04:09 2011 From: jim at ibang.com (Jim Allman) Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2011 12:04:09 -0500 Subject: [TriZPUG] More Meeting News In-Reply-To: <4EC68C0B.8010004@unc.edu> References: <6E5CB6B46F52EC4FB993E2466C5405F50E2C20E4@ITS-MSXMBS3M.ad.unc.edu> <4E934F45.4040507@unc.edu> <4EA1E41D.8060605@unc.edu> <4EC68C0B.8010004@unc.edu> Message-ID: <13F71B34-4F2F-45DF-9098-6A311817EBF8@ibang.com> On Nov 18, 2011, at 11:47 AM, Chris Calloway wrote: > How do Raleigh folks feel about having Raleigh meetings? If people are going to organize and host them, it would be good to know that there is interest. Hm, I would have attended, but didn't realize we were meeting this week. (It never made the front page of TriZPUG for some reason. The October meeting is still listed there.) Raleigh meetings are (relatively) convenient for me, but obviously attendance has been light for some time. I may need to wear a sandwich board at NCSU for a day. =jimA= From jj at email.unc.edu Fri Nov 18 18:54:17 2011 From: jj at email.unc.edu (Johnson, Josh) Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2011 17:54:17 +0000 Subject: [TriZPUG] More Meeting News In-Reply-To: <4EC68C0B.8010004@unc.edu> Message-ID: <6E5CB6B46F52EC4FB993E2466C5405F50E2E33D4@ITS-MSXMBS3F.ad.unc.edu> I'm working down the hill from the usual Raleigh location now, so I'm very, very interested in having Raleigh meetings and having them somewhere on Centennial Campus :) I was bummed about the meeting, I was literally shouting distance away and I just wrote down the wrote time :( I can definitely assist in any way as far as prep before a meeting or getting the word out (I'm not associated with NCSU or Red Hat so I can't do anything as far as opening doors or reserving space). What do you think (I'm asking the group as well as Chris here) is preventing folks from coming to the Raleigh meetings? Are we still notifying TriLUG about them as well? Did that help? Ill do whatever I can to help out. Thanks, JJ ----- Original Message ----- From: Chris Calloway [mailto:cbc at unc.edu] Sent: Friday, November 18, 2011 11:47 AM To: Triangle (North Carolina) Zope and Python Users Group Subject: Re: [TriZPUG] More Meeting News On 11/17/2011 2:02 PM, Alex wrote: > I haven't heard anything from Chris Calloway as to whether tonight's > meeting is still on, but I will be in EB2 room 1226 (that is on the > first floor in the "left wing" if you're looking at the building from > Oval Drive) at 6pm to hold the meeting with anyone who may appear :) . Hi, sorry, I was on a ship when you emailed. But meetings are always on whether or not I say so or not. It's TriZPUG's meeting, not mine. Thanks for following up with info, Alex. Turns out Josh got there at 7pm. Don't know about the other presenter. We've had low turnout for Raleigh meetings for awhile. I think we lost interest from the Red Hat host because only three people showed up for the previous meeting there. How do Raleigh folks feel about having Raleigh meetings? If people are going to organize and host them, it would be good to know that there is interest. BTW, I did not intend to be out on a ship this week and had every intention of being at the meeting myself. You have to be ready to go out on the ship when the weather permits. I was down at the docks in Georgia for two weeks waiting for a gap in the offshore storm fronts. Believe me, I would rather have been here. When the Captain says we have a window of opportunity, that's when we ship out. I was rolling up I-95 on my way back when the meeting started. Got back late last night. The original plan was for me to be back a week ago. -- Sincerely, Chris Calloway http://nccoos.org/Members/cbc office: 3313 Venable Hall phone: (919) 599-3530 mail: Campus Box #3300, UNC-CH, Chapel Hill, NC 27599 _______________________________________________ TriZPUG mailing list TriZPUG at python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/trizpug http://trizpug.org is the Triangle Zope and Python Users Group From jmack at wm7d.net Fri Nov 18 19:01:26 2011 From: jmack at wm7d.net (Joseph Mack NA3T) Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2011 10:01:26 -0800 (PST) Subject: [TriZPUG] More Meeting News In-Reply-To: <6E5CB6B46F52EC4FB993E2466C5405F50E2E33D4@ITS-MSXMBS3F.ad.unc.edu> References: <6E5CB6B46F52EC4FB993E2466C5405F50E2E33D4@ITS-MSXMBS3F.ad.unc.edu> Message-ID: On Fri, 18 Nov 2011, Johnson, Josh wrote: > What do you think (I'm asking the group as well as Chris > here) is preventing folks from coming to the Raleigh > meetings? Are we still notifying TriLUG about them as > well? Did that help? I'm in Durham. Raleigh is a way for me. 7pm (rather than 6pm) would help, but since I won't be coming all the time, it would be better to have a time suited to those that will come regularly. A reminder (with the time/location) on the day is really helpful. I have events in my engagement book, but I don't look at it a whole lot. Notifying TriLUG can't hurt. Joe -- Joseph Mack NA3T EME(B,D), FM05lw North Carolina jmack (at) wm7d (dot) net - azimuthal equidistant map generator at http://www.wm7d.net/azproj.shtml Homepage http://www.austintek.com/ It's GNU/Linux! From justis.peters at gmail.com Fri Nov 18 19:08:14 2011 From: justis.peters at gmail.com (Justis Peters) Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2011 13:08:14 -0500 Subject: [TriZPUG] More Meeting News In-Reply-To: <4EC68C0B.8010004@unc.edu> References: <6E5CB6B46F52EC4FB993E2466C5405F50E2C20E4@ITS-MSXMBS3M.ad.unc.edu> <4E934F45.4040507@unc.edu> <4EA1E41D.8060605@unc.edu> <4EC68C0B.8010004@unc.edu> Message-ID: <4EC69F0E.7050808@gmail.com> On 11/18/2011 11:47 AM, Chris Calloway wrote: > On 11/17/2011 2:02 PM, Alex wrote: >> I haven't heard anything from Chris Calloway as to whether tonight's >> meeting is still on, but I will be in EB2 room 1226 (that is on the >> first floor in the "left wing" if you're looking at the building from >> Oval Drive) at 6pm to hold the meeting with anyone who may appear :) . > > Hi, sorry, I was on a ship when you emailed. But meetings are always > on whether or not I say so or not. It's TriZPUG's meeting, not mine. > Thanks for following up with info, Alex. Turns out Josh got there at > 7pm. Don't know about the other presenter. > > We've had low turnout for Raleigh meetings for awhile. I think we lost > interest from the Red Hat host because only three people showed up for > the previous meeting there. > > How do Raleigh folks feel about having Raleigh meetings? If people are > going to organize and host them, it would be good to know that there > is interest. I am more likely to go to a Raleigh meeting than to any other TriZPUG meeting. Last night, I instead chose to go to Efland-Cheeks Elementary School, where they were having a "math and science night". I was there with two other SplatSpace members, where we were teaching kids how to build electronic circuits with home-made play dough. We had two flavors: insulator and conductor. It was lots of fun. Many thanks to Alex for anchoring the Raleigh meeting. AFAICT, the next one is on 2012-02-23. Let's start talking now about who's presenting what. Kind regards, Justis From tristan at caltech.edu Fri Nov 18 19:14:13 2011 From: tristan at caltech.edu (Tristan) Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2011 10:14:13 -0800 Subject: [TriZPUG] More Meeting News In-Reply-To: <6E5CB6B46F52EC4FB993E2466C5405F50E2E33D4@ITS-MSXMBS3F.ad.unc.edu> References: <4EC68C0B.8010004@unc.edu> <6E5CB6B46F52EC4FB993E2466C5405F50E2E33D4@ITS-MSXMBS3F.ad.unc.edu> Message-ID: <20111118181413.GA17634@teckla.idyll.org> For me, it was mostly the late reminder notice - something I'm told a month in advance tends to fall of my radar plus ingrained habit of end of month meetings. The other part was the last raleigh meeting I went too was pretty sparse, and combined with the late notice, I figured it would contribute to lowered attendance. Of course, that reasoning tends to be self fulfilling the more people that follow it. Tristan On Fri, Nov 18, 2011 at 05:54:17PM +0000, Johnson, Josh wrote: > I'm working down the hill from the usual Raleigh location now, so I'm very, very interested in having Raleigh meetings and having them somewhere on Centennial Campus :) > > I was bummed about the meeting, I was literally shouting distance away and I just wrote down the wrote time :( > > I can definitely assist in any way as far as prep before a meeting or getting the word out (I'm not associated with NCSU or Red Hat so I can't do anything as far as opening doors or reserving space). > > What do you think (I'm asking the group as well as Chris here) is preventing folks from coming to the Raleigh meetings? Are we still notifying TriLUG about them as well? Did that help? > > Ill do whatever I can to help out. > > Thanks, > JJ From cbc at unc.edu Fri Nov 18 22:35:28 2011 From: cbc at unc.edu (Chris Calloway) Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2011 16:35:28 -0500 Subject: [TriZPUG] More Meeting News In-Reply-To: <20111118181413.GA17634@teckla.idyll.org> References: <4EC68C0B.8010004@unc.edu> <6E5CB6B46F52EC4FB993E2466C5405F50E2E33D4@ITS-MSXMBS3F.ad.unc.edu> <20111118181413.GA17634@teckla.idyll.org> Message-ID: <4EC6CFA0.7040509@unc.edu> On 11/18/2011 1:14 PM, Tristan wrote: > For me, it was mostly the late reminder notice I think the notice point is well taken. Both the latest Raleigh meetings had a breakdown in the notifications workflow. This was particularly sad because it was the first time in a long time that we had two meetings lined up in advance. I usually update the notices. But the last two weeks were beyond crazy for me. So I didn't do all the things I normally do. I need more help from the folks who can edit trizpug.org top to bottom: Rob Lineberger Brad Crittenden Ben Best Ben Donnelly Mark Biggers Cheryl Jerozal Chris Rossi Frank DiMauro Chris Church Charlie Hitlin Adam Hupp Dave Powell Josh Johnson Kurt Grandis Kevin Morgan Mike Revoir Philipp von Weitershausen Paul Smith Joel Burton Robert Petrusz Tom Bryan Walter Martin Geoff Davis Tom Wilson Of course, when I look at that list I realize how ancient TriZPUG is. There are people on that list who long ago moved away or otherwise wandered off or simply had some temporary role. So obviously adding more of the right people to that list can help. Alex was noting an incorrect phone number on the meeting notice. He should be able to edit that. So I'll fix that so he can in the near future. I need a few days to get my life back together after being gone so long first, though. I asked Mike, Mark, Brad, Rob, Jim, and Ben for help last year when I was having serial family medical crises, and here's how I described the notifications workflow then: 1) Make an event item in your personal folder on TriZPUG.org. Follow previous meeting announcements as a template (short name: "monthAbbreviation-yy-mtg" title: "TriZPUG MonthName YYYY Meeting: Subject"). For contact information, list the on-premises facilities host. Publish it. Publishing puts an event item on the event and calendar widgets and pushes it out the event RSS feed to planet.trizpug.org. 2) Link the event item on the front page with a blurb. Example blurbs are already commented out on the front page. Just edit and uncomment the appropriate example. Be sure to comment out the previous blurb so that it becomes an example for reuse. 3) Link the event item on the meeting page. Follow the format for the links already there ("TriZPUG MonthName YYYY Meeting: Subject"). Move the old meeting link down to the previous meeting list. If the previous presenter uploaded their presentation, change the link on the previous meeting from the old meeting notice to the uploaded presentation. 4) Send the event item link to the email list. 5) Link the event item on the IRC channel. 6) Create a meetup.com meeting to match (I believe Mike and Brad are the only ones who can do this presently). To which could be added: 7) Send a reminder to the email list two days in advance of the meeting. Second of all, I've been paying $144/year for the last few years to have the meetings listed on meetup.com. I call this the meetup tax. And it is in some ways worthwhile because there are many people who learn about TriZPUG meetings through meetup.com. No matter how many times you tell them to sign up for this email list for better information, it just won't happen for some fraction of our audience. So the meetup tax is just a fact of life because meetup.com is a fact of life. Calvin Spealman volunteered a couple of meetings ago to help with the meetup.com announcements and he was added to the list of meetup assistants for TriZPUG back then. The other meetup.com assistants are Brad Crittenden and Mike Revoir. Maybe we could use some more meetup assistants, too. -- Sincerely, Chris Calloway http://nccoos.org/Members/cbc office: 3313 Venable Hall phone: (919) 599-3530 mail: Campus Box #3300, UNC-CH, Chapel Hill, NC 27599 From cbc at unc.edu Tue Nov 22 00:19:52 2011 From: cbc at unc.edu (Chris Calloway) Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2011 18:19:52 -0500 Subject: [TriZPUG] Google Code-In Message-ID: <4ECADC98.3010500@unc.edu> Four months ago at the Carrboro meeting, someone asked about code challenges for early teens. Google is back with a coding contest for 13-17 year olds: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p53ckMEZkUU http://www.google-melange.com/gci/homepage/google/gci2011 http://code.google.com/opensource/gci/2011-12/index.html -- Sincerely, Chris Calloway http://nccoos.org/Members/cbc office: 3313 Venable Hall phone: (919) 599-3530 mail: Campus Box #3300, UNC-CH, Chapel Hill, NC 27599