[SciPy-user] Scipy / matplotlib to replace matlab and indexes

Sun May 6 13:03:44 EDT 2007


John Pye wrote:
> So, what will 'they' say in return?
>
>     * Where's the manual?
>   
yes that's a real disadavantage,
here's a start

  http://www.limsi.fr/Individu/pointal/python/pqrc/


>     * What is the one single file that I have to install?
>   
well you've
- Enthought edition (rather buggy)
- Enthought enstaller (for windows users a bit clumsy)
- portable Scipy (written by myself ;-)

  
http://oase.uci.kun.nl/~mientki/data_www/pic/jalcc/python/portable_scipy.html


>     * Why do I have to pay to get the numpy manual?
>
>   
that's a pity,
and not for the money, I wouldn't mind paying for it (or better said let 
my boss pay for it),
but it's a real pain to order from non standard distributors at our 
university !!
> I use python/matplotlib and to a lesser extent scipy very frequently but
> I have to say that I don't think the user experience is quite smooth
> enough for foisting on those poor undergrads just yet.
Ever tried a good IDE (e.g. PyScripter) with auto-completion/suggestion
in combination with Python,
much better than the MatLab editor.

>  I think that the
> fragmentation of the documentation is just too much, as well as the fact
> that a really important part of the documentation is non-free. I would
> like to see a one-file installer for Windows (AFAIK this doesn't exist)
> and big searchable .CHM file with everything you need.
Yes that's indeed what we need.
I'm building my own right now, by redirecting the help from the IDE to a 
multipage html editor,
but of course that will only contain what I'm interested in ;-)
>  You have to think
> about all those people who struggle through their first programming
> course...
>
> I'm curious as to whether SciLab was an option you've considered?
>   
Scilab indeed has a few advantages (if you only look at the standard 
MatLab functionality),
- better documentation
- includes Simulink + PowerSim
Disadvantages of SciLab:
- it's only suited for Math, not for general programming
- embedding and encapsulation is not supported
- an even smaller user group at least the English written one

cheers,
Stef Mientki

> Cheers
> JP
>
>
> Nicolas Pettiaux wrote:
>   
>> 2007/5/6, Stef Mientki <s.mientki at ru.nl>:
>>
>> Thank you very much Stef
>>
>>   
>>     
>>> I'm in a similar situation (Radboud university, Nijmegen),
>>> and even worse some people want to change from MatLab to LabView,
>>> which, for as far as I can see, is very bad for educational purposes
>>> (and even more expensive).
>>>     
>>>       
>> Indeed. Good luck.
>>
>> Here, I first introduced the idea to go from matlab to octave, keeping
>> much of the syntax and programs but going in a direction where the
>> students would not have to copy illegally the software to run it on
>> their own computers, but then someone came with the idea that
>> Mathematica should be tought instead. So I want to answer that if we
>> consider to switch to something else than octave / matlab, python with
>> its extension is the way to go.
>>
>>   
>>     
>>> To make them like SciPy more than MatLab,
>>> I'm writing a few shell programs,
>>> that will make it more attractive.
>>>     
>>>       
>> this is a vey good idea. I would very much like ot contribute (when I
>> have the time and opportinity, that is not now unfortunately).
>>
>>   
>>     
>>> I've made a first version of a general data acquisition / realtime
>>> analysis tool (which btw also supports MatLab ;-)
>>> http://oase.uci.kun.nl/~mientki/data_www/pic/jalcc/help/jalcc_data_acquisition.html
>>> <http://oase.uci.kun.nl/%7Emientki/data_www/pic/jalcc/help/jalcc_data_acquisition.html>
>>>     
>>>       
>> this is very nice? Is it a portable application that runs on Windows ,
>> Mac but also GNU/linux ? (as python does)
>>
>>   
>>     
>>> you can see a movie here
>>> http://oase.uci.ru.nl/~mientki/download/medilab_tot.htm
>>> <http://oase.uci.ru.nl/%7Emientki/download/medilab_tot.htm>
>>>     
>>>       
>> Thanks. I'll do as soon as I have the time to do so
>>
>>   
>>     
>>> And now I'm working on a Signal WorkBench,
>>> a first demo (including comparison with MatLab) is described here
>>> http://oase.uci.kun.nl/~mientki/data_www/pic/jalcc/help/jallcc_swb_filters.html
>>> <http://oase.uci.kun.nl/%7Emientki/data_www/pic/jalcc/help/jallcc_swb_filters.html>
>>>     
>>>       
>> a signal toolbox for scipy / numpy is a good idea
>>
>>
>>   
>>     
>>> Yes, indeed, starting with zero is inhuman ;-)
>>> but,
>>> - working with zero-based index, makes cicular arrays more easy to handle
>>> - it's very easy to get the third element from the end   a[-3]
>>> so not very strong arguments ;-)
>>> And even harder to get used, is the end-index is not included, like in
>>> MatLab.
>>>
>>> So I think you should use other arguments, like
>>>     
>>>       
>> yes, I will, but the more and best I have, the better I'll feel !
>>
>>   
>>     
>>> - it's easy to vectorize any function (to gain speed)
>>>     
>>>       
>> is it different / better / simpler than in Matlab ? How do you proceed ?
>>
>>   
>>     
>>> - all code is avaliable and can be changed (In MatLab, I often need to
>>> run test series, to see what a function exactly did, because the
>>> description was inadaequat, and MathWorks didn't want to tell me what's
>>> inside, btw the standard answer from MathWorks "only available if you
>>> manage to get a job at MathWorks" ;-)
>>>     
>>>       
>> indeed. (as FLOSS)
>>
>>   
>>     
>>> - SciPy is free, and therefor every student can take it home and study
>>> it when it fits him/her
>>>     
>>>       
>> indeed. (as FLOSS)
>>
>>   
>>     
>>> - Python can be used to perform any computer task (general programming),
>>> while MatLab is mainly pointed at math
>>>     
>>>       
>> indeed. (as FLOSS)
>>
>>   
>>     
>>> - graphical user interface with feedback are much easier to create than
>>> in MatLab (ever designed an interactive plot in MatLab ?)
>>>     
>>>       
>> very good point . I did not try and will try asap. Have you got a
>> simple example accessible ?
>>
>>   
>>     
>>> - Python can be used fully Object Oriented (MatLab not), which makes
>>> extending code (in the future) extremly easy
>>>     
>>>       
>> yes
>>   
>>     
>>> - in MatLab every function must in a seperate file (do you have also
>>> directories with a few hundred very small files ;-)
>>>     
>>>       
>> very good point
>>
>>   
>>     
>>> - Memory footprint MatLab : 110 MB, Scipy 10 MB
>>>     
>>>       
>> good point but I suppose they don't care.
>>
>>   
>>     
>>> - Embedding and encapsultion of MatLab is very limites, Python is made
>>> for it
>>>     
>>>       
>> very good point
>>
>>   
>>     
>>> - although more scientific problems are discussed in MatLab newsgroups,
>>> the answers often only consists of the right direction. In Python
>>> newsgroups (all that I know), give you support (and often more than 1
>>> solution), until  your problem is solved (Thanks newsgroups !!)
>>>     
>>>       
>> very good point
>>
>>   
>>     
>>> - although the Python documentation is sometimes fragmented, the
>>> available sources on the web and the available books are much better,
>>> just compare the ratio of contents and number of pages of "Using MatLab,
>>> version 5" and a standard Pythion manula like "Learning Python, O'Reilly"
>>>     
>>>       
>> very good point
>>
>>   
>>     
>>> - New versions of MatLab are full of bugs and often doesn't support
>>> newer platforms, I've the feeling Python doesn't suffer from that.
>>>     
>>>       
>> very good point
>>
>>   
>>     
>>> - Function calls with many (named) parameters is much easier in Python
>>> than in MatLab
>>>
>>> So aren't there any disadvantages ?,
>>> Yes there are a few:
>>>     
>>>       
>>   
>>     
>>> - Python (Scipy) is fully unknown (so you must be a Don QuiChotte)
>>>     
>>>       
>> one point is that a teacher of computing science is considering python
>> to teach the basis of  programming instead pf the C++ that is
>> currently tought in the first year ... and that is a real pain for the
>> students, who do hardly remember anything when I see then in the
>> second year where I teach.
>>
>>   
>>     
>>> - the MatLab workspace is missing in Python
>>>     
>>>       
>> yes, but I suppose that can be replaced with well configured editors
>>
>>   
>>     
>>> succes with your attempt,
>>>     
>>>       
>> thanks
>>
>> Nicolas
>>   
>>     
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