From Daryl.Tester at iocane.com.au Wed Feb 1 02:53:50 2006 From: Daryl.Tester at iocane.com.au (Daryl Tester) Date: Wed, 01 Feb 2006 12:23:50 +1030 Subject: [sapug] Introduction In-Reply-To: <35bb42690601311440k6ef374b0p8ecf153471428b34@mail.gmail.com> References: <35bb42690601311440k6ef374b0p8ecf153471428b34@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <43E014AE.4040907@iocane.com.au> Chris Were wrote: > Not sure if anyone else has joined yet, but I thought I would introduce > myself - it's great to have a Python SA list! Well, I was going to wait until the first round funding, er, subscribing had died down a bit before posting anything substantial. :-) I don't expect this to be a high volume list - python-au has its periods of quietness gusting to verbosity at times. I figured it would be a nice quiet place to hide from the Perl bullies. :-) -- Regards, Daryl Tester, IOCANE Pty. Ltd. From Daryl.Tester at iocane.com.au Thu Feb 2 11:15:33 2006 From: Daryl.Tester at iocane.com.au (Daryl Tester) Date: Thu, 02 Feb 2006 20:45:33 +1030 Subject: [sapug] Introduction In-Reply-To: <35bb42690601311440k6ef374b0p8ecf153471428b34@mail.gmail.com> References: <35bb42690601311440k6ef374b0p8ecf153471428b34@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <43E1DBC5.9020707@iocane.com.au> Chris Were wrote: > Not sure if anyone else has joined yet, but I thought I would introduce > myself - it's great to have a Python SA list! "Please allow me to introduce myself - I'm a man of wealth and taste". (well, not really for those that know me :-). Speaking for myself (as always), I wouldn't mind having an occasional get together in the style of AUUG or LinuxSA, which is basically a presentation followed by food and drink, if there is much interest in such a thing. I don't have a venue planned yet (if anyone knows of a place, feel free to post up), but do have some ideas for talks. I'm thinking maybe not a regularly scheduled thing, just when there was a talk planned or something to chat about, but if it was to happen to have it occur in a regular spot of the month (e.g. 2nd Monday after full moon). I'm open to suggestions. > I've mainly done web programming on and off for the last 8 years, starting > with Perl, PHP and in the last 12 months writing almost 100% Python. It is > so much faster for rapidly prototyping ideas and its lack of verbosity makes > coding in Python much more enjoyable. There was a very recent thread in LinuxSA about Python IDEs. I haven't tried IDLE in a while, but did say that I use vi (well, vim) and (language equivalent) printf, which is true - one of my code writing styles is to have two sessions side by side, one of which is editing the code and the other sitting in the Python REPL loop executing "reload (module)" and testing the code. Write a bit, test a bit. Probably my other code writing style these days is Test Driven Development, although I still tend to fall back on my "old ways" and code before the unit tests are really done. That is, when I get the opportunity to cut code, which seems to be on the decline :-/ > What other Python projects are people in SA working on? Any web based > services? I've done a couple of XML-RPC based projects (I prefer XML-RPC over SOAP, because I'm a simple man at heart), and several web scraping applications. Then there's an ISP management system (with the neat feature of emailing exceptions when they are thrown so I know when it's broken on something), an ISO 8583 EFT gateway and test framework, and sundry data manipulation scripts (only when standard Unix awk doesn't support sockets). And of course, my secret pet project, which I get to code in my copious free time (haha, I crack me up - it's been over a year since I last worked on it). There's also Python-related activities, like writing a module for Freeradius (in C) to emit logging events as pickles over sockets (damn fun for building event driven infrastructure, as is my wont). Who else is doing what for fun? -- Regards, Daryl Tester, IOCANE Pty. Ltd. From steve at adam.com.au Fri Feb 3 04:59:35 2006 From: steve at adam.com.au (stephen white) Date: Fri, 3 Feb 2006 14:29:35 +1030 Subject: [sapug] Introduction In-Reply-To: <43E1DBC5.9020707@iocane.com.au> References: <35bb42690601311440k6ef374b0p8ecf153471428b34@mail.gmail.com> <43E1DBC5.9020707@iocane.com.au> Message-ID: On 02/02/2006, at 8:45 PM, Daryl Tester wrote: > "Please allow me to introduce myself - I'm a man of wealth and taste". And I'm the obligatory Ruby troll, who is using Objective C more these days. :) Currently looking into a Forth scripting layer based on Smalltalk! My search for the perfect scripting language continues... -- steve at adam.com.au From chris at inetd.com.au Mon Feb 6 01:41:37 2006 From: chris at inetd.com.au (Chris Foote) Date: Mon, 6 Feb 2006 11:11:37 +1030 (CST) Subject: [sapug] Introduction In-Reply-To: <43E014AE.4040907@iocane.com.au> References: <35bb42690601311440k6ef374b0p8ecf153471428b34@mail.gmail.com> <43E014AE.4040907@iocane.com.au> Message-ID: On Wed, 1 Feb 2006, Daryl Tester wrote: > Chris Were wrote: > >> Not sure if anyone else has joined yet, but I thought I would introduce >> myself - it's great to have a Python SA list! > > Well, I was going to wait until the first round funding, er, subscribing > had died down a bit before posting anything substantial. :-) I don't > expect this to be a high volume list - python-au has its periods of > quietness gusting to verbosity at times. I figured it would be a nice > quiet place to hide from the Perl bullies. :-) hehe... From what I've heard, there's a stack of Perl to Python converts - including myself! -- Chris Foote Inetd Pty Ltd T/A HostExpress Web: http://www.hostexpress.com.au Blog: http://www.hostexpress.com.au/drupal/chris Phone: (08) 8410 4566 From toojays at toojays.net Tue Feb 7 10:10:02 2006 From: toojays at toojays.net (John Steele Scott) Date: Tue, 07 Feb 2006 19:40:02 +1030 Subject: [sapug] Introduction Message-ID: <1139303403.11514.11.camel@fuzz.toojays.net> I tried sending this on Saturday, but it hasn't turned up. Third time lucky maybe? I've been waiting for GMANE to setup a feed for this list, but so far it hasn't happened, so in the meantime I guess I'll subscribe, and reply to the "Introduction" post I read in the archives. At the moment I'm working with embedded temperature logging systems. I use Python on an Ubuntu box to communicate with the (PIC-based) embedded system, to help me with testing and debugging. Usually I have my embedded code in one Emacs screen, with another Emacs screen containing the Python test code and the Python REPL. The other area I've found Python useful is for prototyping GUI applications with wxPython. These are end-user programs for controlling the above-mentioned embedded systems. Unfortunately last time I had to go back and re-implement the application in C++, so that the app could be contained in a single Windows exe file. The Tcl/Tk starpack solution would've been good for this. Is anyone aware if there is an equivalent for Python yet? In my free time these days I find that my brain is too fried to do programming. :( When my brain is up to it, I'm studying the Scheme programming language. Although I haven't got very far with it yet, I think I can already relate to an observation I read on an MSDN blog that "Lisp is a Curse".[1] I'm glad to see a SA Python user group, although I hope that excursions into other dynamic languages will be tolerated. Especially since we already have a Ruby troll on the list. :) cheers, John [1] From ryan at uanywhere.com.au Tue Feb 7 10:58:51 2006 From: ryan at uanywhere.com.au (Ryan Verner) Date: Tue, 07 Feb 2006 20:28:51 +1030 Subject: [sapug] Monthly Meetings Message-ID: <1139306331.19618.100.camel@fluffy> ... we having them? Seriously - given the broad scope of people who grok python, especially those not actively involved with other groups, I think it'd be a great thing. Sorry if this has already been discussed :-) R From toojays at toojays.net Tue Feb 7 13:24:08 2006 From: toojays at toojays.net (John Steele Scott) Date: Tue, 07 Feb 2006 22:54:08 +1030 Subject: [sapug] test of PGP signed message on sapug list Message-ID: <1139315049.15105.0.camel@fuzz.toojays.net> Please ignore this test message. cheers, John -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 283 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part Url : http://mail.python.org/pipermail/sapug/attachments/20060207/6c3dce63/attachment.pgp From Daryl.Tester at iocane.com.au Tue Feb 7 13:29:53 2006 From: Daryl.Tester at iocane.com.au (Daryl Tester) Date: Tue, 07 Feb 2006 22:59:53 +1030 Subject: [sapug] Monthly Meetings In-Reply-To: <1139306331.19618.100.camel@fluffy> References: <1139306331.19618.100.camel@fluffy> Message-ID: <43E892C1.3050901@iocane.com.au> Ryan Verner wrote: > ... we having them? > > Seriously - given the broad scope of people who grok python, especially > those not actively involved with other groups, I think it'd be a great > thing. > > Sorry if this has already been discussed :-) It has, extensively - well, moderately. Er, maybe I mentioned it in passing - http://mail.python.org/pipermail/sapug/2006-February/000003.html Does this email count as a response? If so, it's officially a thread. :-) -- Regards, Daryl Tester, IOCANE Pty. Ltd. From eljumad at internode.on.net Tue Feb 7 13:44:57 2006 From: eljumad at internode.on.net (julian flint) Date: Tue, 07 Feb 2006 23:14:57 +1030 Subject: [sapug] Introduction In-Reply-To: <1139303403.11514.11.camel@fuzz.toojays.net> References: <1139303403.11514.11.camel@fuzz.toojays.net> Message-ID: <43E89649.8070900@internode.on.net> Hi All, I'm a complete beginner to programming, but have done bit of networking, small systems and a heap of statistical work in the health area (General Practice - but I'm not a doc) Am very interested in python as there is currently a GP clinical program (GnuMed) being developed and I would be interested in being involved somehow. Am also interested in developing an app to interrogate some of the existing clinical programs' backends - many have woeful native search tools After much advice gained from the linux SA list I'll be doing initial work in Vim or Emacs methinks, so excuse any newbie questions. Would be very interested in attending any meetings that are held, and could drag one or two others along ;-) Cheers Julian Flint John Steele Scott wrote: > I tried sending this on Saturday, but it hasn't turned up. Third time > lucky maybe? > > I've been waiting for GMANE to setup a feed for this list, but so far it > hasn't happened, so in the meantime I guess I'll subscribe, and reply to > the "Introduction" post I read in the archives. > > At the moment I'm working with embedded temperature logging systems. I > use Python on an Ubuntu box to communicate with the (PIC-based) embedded > system, to help me with testing and debugging. Usually I have my > embedded code in one Emacs screen, with another Emacs screen containing > the Python test code and the Python REPL. > > The other area I've found Python useful is for prototyping GUI > applications with wxPython. These are end-user programs for controlling > the above-mentioned embedded systems. Unfortunately last time I had to > go back and re-implement the application in C++, so that the app could > be contained in a single Windows exe file. The Tcl/Tk starpack solution > would've been good for this. Is anyone aware if there is an equivalent > for Python yet? > > In my free time these days I find that my brain is too fried to do > programming. :( When my brain is up to it, I'm studying the Scheme > programming language. Although I haven't got very far with it yet, I > think I can already relate to an observation I read on an MSDN blog that > "Lisp is a Curse".[1] > > I'm glad to see a SA Python user group, although I hope that excursions > into other dynamic languages will be tolerated. Especially since we > already have a Ruby troll on the list. :) > > cheers, > > John > > > [1] > > > > _______________________________________________ > sapug mailing list > sapug at python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/sapug > From Daryl.Tester at iocane.com.au Mon Feb 13 12:27:35 2006 From: Daryl.Tester at iocane.com.au (Daryl Tester) Date: Mon, 13 Feb 2006 21:57:35 +1030 Subject: [sapug] Introduction In-Reply-To: <1139303403.11514.11.camel@fuzz.toojays.net> References: <1139303403.11514.11.camel@fuzz.toojays.net> Message-ID: <43F06D27.1060802@iocane.com.au> Feh, playing email catchup ... John Steele Scott wrote: > Unfortunately last time I had to go back and re-implement the application > in C++, so that the app could be contained in a single Windows exe file. Would embedding Python help? With the new import interface you can now pack most of the Python library into a single zip file, but unfortunately you can't do the same for shared objects (.dll's or .so's) - or at least, couldn't when I last checked. > The Tcl/Tk starpack solution would've been good for this. Not familiar with starpack - a quick Google shows it's a Tcl technology? > Is anyone aware if there is an equivalent for Python yet? Well, apart from the unzipper (which I think is native to Python 2.3 onwards; look for the zipimport module), it also provides a mechanism to add your own import interface (look for PEP 302 and 273), so you could theoretically talk to tar files or even over a network (which I've had some success in doing). There are also projects like py2exe, Gordon McMillan's Installer and freeze (comes with the source distribution) for building standalone executables. From memory, some of these result in several run time files being unpacked, but it's been quite a while since I've looked at any of them. > In my free time these days I find that my brain is too fried to do > programming. :( Amen to that. :-( > When my brain is up to it, I'm studying the Scheme programming language. I've got some leave coming up soon, and I'm hoping to make a significant dent in SICP. I've had several abortive attempts at it, but 10 minutes or so here or there doesn't soak into the brain well. > Although I haven't got very far with it yet, I think I can already > relate to an observation I read on an MSDN blog that "Lisp is a Curse".[1] I've always thought of it as that language they used in Snow Crash to rewrite people's brains. :-) > Especially since we already have a Ruby troll on the list. :) He's harmless provided you don't get him wet or feed him after midnight. -- Regards, Daryl Tester, IOCANE Pty. Ltd. From chris at inetd.com.au Mon Feb 13 13:59:42 2006 From: chris at inetd.com.au (Chris Foote) Date: Mon, 13 Feb 2006 23:29:42 +1030 (CST) Subject: [sapug] Introduction In-Reply-To: <43F06D27.1060802@iocane.com.au> References: <1139303403.11514.11.camel@fuzz.toojays.net> <43F06D27.1060802@iocane.com.au> Message-ID: On Mon, 13 Feb 2006, Daryl Tester wrote: > John Steele Scott wrote: > >> When my brain is up to it, I'm studying the Scheme programming language. > > I've got some leave coming up soon, and I'm hoping to make a significant > dent in SICP. I've had several abortive attempts at it, but 10 minutes > or so here or there doesn't soak into the brain well. hehe.. I bought the book last year and I managed to get to page 43 :-( Seriously though, I'll get a round tuit one of these days (busy at the moment doing an MSc in IT degree). I bought the "Little Schemer" at the same time, which is most interesting, and "this page reserved for jelly stains" raised a smile. Jumping between Common Lisp and Scheme makes for interesting syntax errors. >> Although I haven't got very far with it yet, I think I can already >> relate to an observation I read on an MSDN blog that "Lisp is a Curse".[1] > > I've always thought of it as that language they used in Snow Crash to > rewrite people's brains. :-) hmm.. sounds like an interesting book. Lisp overwrote my brain a couple of years ago! >> Especially since we already have a Ruby troll on the list. :) > > He's harmless provided you don't get him wet or feed him after midnight. ... or get him started on Python's "list comprehensions" versus Ruby's "blocks"[1]. I'd like to try Ruby on Rails, so I'll get to play with Ruby then. [1] Ruby, Python, "Power" http://blog.ianbicking.org/ruby-python-power.html -- Chris Foote Inetd Pty Ltd T/A HostExpress Web: http://www.hostexpress.com.au Blog: http://www.hostexpress.com.au/drupal/chris Phone: (08) 8410 4566 From Daryl.Tester at iocane.com.au Mon Feb 13 21:31:14 2006 From: Daryl.Tester at iocane.com.au (Daryl Tester) Date: Tue, 14 Feb 2006 07:01:14 +1030 Subject: [sapug] Introduction In-Reply-To: References: <1139303403.11514.11.camel@fuzz.toojays.net> <43F06D27.1060802@iocane.com.au> Message-ID: <43F0EC92.2090407@iocane.com.au> Chris Foote wrote: >> He's harmless provided you don't get him wet or feed him after midnight. > ... or get him started on Python's "list comprehensions" versus Ruby's > "blocks"[1]. As an aside, Guido appears to have reversed his decision of several years and is now going to keep lambda: http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-dev/2006-February/060415.html (which I think is good news; now if only he'll consider Stackless ...). And according to his blog, he's taken a job at Google; last I remember he was at Elemental with Dan Farmer (he of Satan fame). The lad gets around. :-) > I'd like to try Ruby on Rails, so I'll get to play with Ruby then. Another entry on my near infinite to-do list. :-/ -- Regards, Daryl Tester, IOCANE Pty. Ltd. From toojays at toojays.net Mon Feb 13 23:34:12 2006 From: toojays at toojays.net (John Steele Scott) Date: Tue, 14 Feb 2006 09:04:12 +1030 Subject: [sapug] FWD: Re: Introduction Message-ID: <43f10964.36b.199.30027@internode.on.net> Oops . . . I noticed that the "To:" field wasn't set to post to the list, made a comment that it should be, and promptly forgot to change it. :( ****** Forwarded Message Follows ******* From steve at adam.com.au Tue Feb 14 02:17:10 2006 From: steve at adam.com.au (stephen white) Date: Tue, 14 Feb 2006 11:47:10 +1030 Subject: [sapug] Introduction In-Reply-To: References: <1139303403.11514.11.camel@fuzz.toojays.net> <43F06D27.1060802@iocane.com.au> Message-ID: <6E9F1C0F-BB98-47F0-9A5C-E6B7A0F6B116@adam.com.au> On 13/02/2006, at 11:29 PM, Chris Foote wrote: > On Mon, 13 Feb 2006, Daryl Tester wrote: >> I've got some leave coming up soon, and I'm hoping to make a >> significant >> dent in SICP. I've had several abortive attempts at it, but 10 >> minutes >> or so here or there doesn't soak into the brain well. > > hehe.. I bought the book last year and I managed to get to page 43 :-( I had that book for two of my subjects (I think I may have been the one who recommended it to Daryl?) at Adelaide Uni, and it's incredibly dense material. It covers about the same amount per paragraph as other books cover per subject, confirming my theory that it's used for weeding out students at MIT. It's a first year book over there! >>> Especially since we already have a Ruby troll on the list. :) >> He's harmless provided you don't get him wet or feed him after >> midnight. > ... or get him started on Python's "list comprehensions" versus Ruby's Part of the reason I'm a Ruby Troll is because it was the first time I was exposed to the original Smalltalk version of Object Oriented Programming. Years of painful miscomprehension induced by the abortion of C++ and its legions sloughed off in an instant(iation), as the clear shining vision of Alan Kay dawned on my mindscape! Firmly into Objective C these days, using Smalltalk as a scripting layer on top of compiled Smalltalk with implementation in C. Languages go in the strangest directions! Steve. -- steve at adam.com.au From chris at inetd.com.au Tue Feb 14 03:10:24 2006 From: chris at inetd.com.au (Chris Foote) Date: Tue, 14 Feb 2006 12:40:24 +1030 (CST) Subject: [sapug] Introduction In-Reply-To: <43F0EC92.2090407@iocane.com.au> References: <1139303403.11514.11.camel@fuzz.toojays.net> <43F06D27.1060802@iocane.com.au> <43F0EC92.2090407@iocane.com.au> Message-ID: On Tue, 14 Feb 2006, Daryl Tester wrote: > Chris Foote wrote: > >>> He's harmless provided you don't get him wet or feed him after midnight. > >> ... or get him started on Python's "list comprehensions" versus Ruby's >> "blocks"[1]. > > As an aside, Guido appears to have reversed his decision of several years > and is now going to keep lambda: > > http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-dev/2006-February/060415.html I would be nice to have lambda's that spanned multiple lines though :-( > (which I think is good news; now if only he'll consider Stackless ...). What advantages does stackless Python have ? > And according to his blog, he's taken a job at Google; Cool - That looks like a good move from both Google and Guido's point of view. >> I'd like to try Ruby on Rails, so I'll get to play with Ruby then. > > Another entry on my near infinite to-do list. :-/ The more you know the more you don't know :-) -- Chris Foote Inetd Pty Ltd T/A HostExpress Web: http://www.hostexpress.com.au Blog: http://www.hostexpress.com.au/drupal/chris Phone: (08) 8410 4566 From chris at inetd.com.au Tue Feb 14 03:28:34 2006 From: chris at inetd.com.au (Chris Foote) Date: Tue, 14 Feb 2006 12:58:34 +1030 (CST) Subject: [sapug] Introduction In-Reply-To: <6E9F1C0F-BB98-47F0-9A5C-E6B7A0F6B116@adam.com.au> References: <1139303403.11514.11.camel@fuzz.toojays.net> <43F06D27.1060802@iocane.com.au> <6E9F1C0F-BB98-47F0-9A5C-E6B7A0F6B116@adam.com.au> Message-ID: On Tue, 14 Feb 2006, stephen white wrote: > On 13/02/2006, at 11:29 PM, Chris Foote wrote: >> On Mon, 13 Feb 2006, Daryl Tester wrote: >>> I've got some leave coming up soon, and I'm hoping to make a >>> significant >>> dent in SICP. I've had several abortive attempts at it, but 10 >>> minutes >>> or so here or there doesn't soak into the brain well. >> >> hehe.. I bought the book last year and I managed to get to page 43 :-( > > I had that book for two of my subjects (I think I may have been the > one who recommended it to Daryl?) at Adelaide Uni, and it's > incredibly dense material. It covers about the same amount per > paragraph as other books cover per subject, confirming my theory that > it's used for weeding out students at MIT. It's a first year book > over there! I don't know why it's ever touted as being useful for a beginner's course in computer science. No doubt the MIT students would agree :-) >>>> Especially since we already have a Ruby troll on the list. :) >>> He's harmless provided you don't get him wet or feed him after >>> midnight. >> ... or get him started on Python's "list comprehensions" versus Ruby's > > Part of the reason I'm a Ruby Troll is because it was the first time > I was exposed to the original Smalltalk version of Object Oriented > Programming. Years of painful miscomprehension induced by the > abortion of C++ and its legions sloughed off in an instant(iation), > as the clear shining vision of Alan Kay dawned on my mindscape! I come from the C world and I never got past using OO for encapsulation and basic interheritance with C++. I found that using OO in Python was so natural that I started to learn new concepts and finally a reason why OO was considered useful. It got me interested in programming again, and I'm looking at moving to a career in software engineering because of it (it's a shame that Python isn't more widely accepted!). I suppose learning and using Java/Smalltalk/Ruby might have also had the same benefits, but I just didn't have the time up my sleeve. > Firmly into Objective C these days, using Smalltalk as a scripting > layer on top of compiled Smalltalk with implementation in C. > Languages go in the strangest directions! Any reason for using Smalltalk over Ruby ? (i.e. If you progressed from Ruby to Smalltalk, then there must have been some benefit). How on earth did Objective C sneak in there ? -- Chris Foote Inetd Pty Ltd T/A HostExpress Web: http://www.hostexpress.com.au Blog: http://www.hostexpress.com.au/drupal/chris Phone: (08) 8410 4566 From steve at adam.com.au Tue Feb 14 07:13:05 2006 From: steve at adam.com.au (stephen white) Date: Tue, 14 Feb 2006 16:43:05 +1030 Subject: [sapug] Introduction In-Reply-To: References: <1139303403.11514.11.camel@fuzz.toojays.net> <43F06D27.1060802@iocane.com.au> <6E9F1C0F-BB98-47F0-9A5C-E6B7A0F6B116@adam.com.au> Message-ID: On 14/02/2006, at 12:58 PM, Chris Foote wrote: > Any reason for using Smalltalk over Ruby ? (i.e. If you progressed > from > Ruby to Smalltalk, then there must have been some benefit). How on > earth did Objective C sneak in there ? Now you're asking me to be a Smalltalk Troll, when I'm supposed to be talking Ruby up... :) I also come from the C world, and had been greatly unimpressed with OO languages. I'm still the same way now, considering properly implemented OO as being conceptually similar to separate processes communicating with messages, or Charles Moore's concept of thousands of microprocessors in one computer. Since the OO languages like C++ contained mashed up baby in the bathwater, I had disregarded the entire concept and was struggling with implementing seperate areas within the one namespace. Discovering Ruby, and the way that it carefully retains procedural syntax within co-operating objects, was a breath of fresh air. I would argue that OO programming is in fact a way of re-introducing all the 'evil', yet practical, ideas like global variables and gotos... within namespace playgrounds to limit the program wide effects. This is a good thing as far as I can see, as scoping variables before using them is a hit and more often miss exercise in frustration and rewriting. I imagine that Python is much the same... just that I had my hit of old time, nothing to do with inheritance, OO programming with another scripting language by chance. There are other features of Ruby that made accessing other ideas, like lambda, very simple and straightforward. There's nothing at all mysterious about passing blocks, and the libraries are designed with blocks in mind, so it's just the way things get done. On the other hand, Ruby has no native GUI libraries and I wanted a single set of libraries or frameworks that were written in a consistent manner, that handled just about everything without plugins or add-ons, and had loads and loads of documentation. And definitely not C++. So I ended up getting a Mac with OS X and Cocoa specifically for its compatibility with Ruby's semantics. And I waited, and waited, and I'm still waiting. The hang-up is the simple fact that Ruby doesn't have parametric keywording... that is to say, it doesn't have in-fix notation for the names of arguments: [shortStatusText setStringValue:@"Picture Sharing is off."]; This is equivalent to: shortStatusText.setStringValue("Picture Sharing is off."); which doesn't have any readily apparent advantage, until you start using multiple arguments: options("hello", "there", "world"); Is it the first argument that is the default option? Or the last? Is there even a default option? Better check the manual! [options firstChoice:@"hello" secondChoice:@"there" defaultChoice:@"world"]; Makes it very obvious without needing any further investigation. It is very much worth the extra typing, and stuff becomes directly commented without the problems of updating, rewording or having potentially out of date comments next to functional code. RubyCocoa does have some hacks to get around the lack of parametric keywording, but they depend on gross megapukage wrappers like SWIG. Plus all the attendant problems of not being able to call unwrapped code, hence unable to load in C libraries, unable to add your own C extensions, etc etc and so many edge case situations that it's like programming in a straitjacket - which are the same problems Python has too. So, having observed that Objective C is capable of blocks and filters and callbacks, had the same OO model as Ruby, fully supported procedural programming, could be compiled to executables, extended with native C code, and ran very quickly by its nature... I made the jump across. It's not all roses, but it appears to be the best of 4 worlds. I'm still looking for a better Smalltalk scripting layer on top, but I don't use Smalltalk the language itself as I'm not fond of the image model as used by Squeak and traditional implementations. I still use Ruby as a quick way of massaging text from the command line, as it has built in Regexp and is much more concise in its syntax. Ruby 2.0 may address some of these concerns, but being able to compile Objective C and mix-n-match the best of 4 very simple languages (assembler, C, ObjC, Smalltalk) is very compelling. It's counter-intuitively strange that none of these 4 languages cause any confusion, unlike the standardised C++ syntax where very similar looking code represent entirely different concepts! Troll! PS. You fed me trollbait after midnight. :) -- steve at adam.com.au From Daryl.Tester at iocane.com.au Tue Feb 14 11:03:52 2006 From: Daryl.Tester at iocane.com.au (Daryl Tester) Date: Tue, 14 Feb 2006 20:33:52 +1030 Subject: [sapug] Introduction In-Reply-To: <1139867729.9340.9.camel@fuzz.toojays.net> References: <1139303403.11514.11.camel@fuzz.toojays.net> <43F06D27.1060802@iocane.com.au> <1139867729.9340.9.camel@fuzz.toojays.net> Message-ID: <43F1AB08.4060206@iocane.com.au> John Steele Scott wrote: > P.S. I think it might be a good idea to have the "reply-to" address be > the list, rather than the individual poster. While I don't agree with all (most?) of the following , I've been witness to too many mail storms caused by broken auto responders (both as a mailing list participant and an ISP/mail administrator). I hate it when everyone on the list has to be informed that someone is "out of the office". BTW I don't think your forward worked. -- Regards, Daryl Tester, IOCANE Pty. Ltd. From Daryl.Tester at iocane.com.au Tue Feb 14 11:37:25 2006 From: Daryl.Tester at iocane.com.au (Daryl Tester) Date: Tue, 14 Feb 2006 21:07:25 +1030 Subject: [sapug] Introduction In-Reply-To: References: <1139303403.11514.11.camel@fuzz.toojays.net> <43F06D27.1060802@iocane.com.au> <43F0EC92.2090407@iocane.com.au> Message-ID: <43F1B2E5.9010700@iocane.com.au> Chris Foote wrote: > I would be nice to have lambda's that spanned multiple lines though :-( Backslash? :-) I think you mean multiple statements/expressions, and yes it would. The variable scoping issue for lambdas used to suck as well, but I thought I read recently where that had been resolved. > What advantages does stackless Python have ? Lack of stack. All those needlessly wasted instructions pushing and popping, and ultimately getting nowhere ... In all seriousness, continuation like behaviour. (Skip this bit if you're continuation savvy, which I ain't). It puts the stack (in reality, stack frames) on the heap to be gc'd like any other data structure. This allows for "tasklets" which are similar to non-preemptive threads, except you can have a very large number of them. The Eve Online game uses Stackless at the backend (I think they're the biggest user of Stackless), and according to the graph on their website they're breaking the 20K simultaneous users online mark regularly. I used to have some links to the technology used for the game, but most of them appear to have suffered bit rot (for instance, the upgrade issues that weren't because they could pickle their continuations, update the code then unpickle and continue). > The more you know the more you don't know :-) Oh, I know, I know. (done in a Sybil Fawlty voice while dragging on a cigarette). -- Regards, Daryl Tester, IOCANE Pty. Ltd. From george.patterson at gmail.com Wed Feb 15 07:51:00 2006 From: george.patterson at gmail.com (George Patterson) Date: Wed, 15 Feb 2006 17:21:00 +1030 Subject: [sapug] Introduction In-Reply-To: <43F1B2E5.9010700@iocane.com.au> References: <1139303403.11514.11.camel@fuzz.toojays.net> <43F06D27.1060802@iocane.com.au> <43F0EC92.2090407@iocane.com.au> <43F1B2E5.9010700@iocane.com.au> Message-ID: <1139986260.8712.3.camel@localhost> On Tue, 2006-02-14 at 21:07 +1030, Daryl Tester wrote: > Chris Foote wrote: > > The more you know the more you don't know :-) > > Oh, I know, I know. (done in a Sybil Fawlty voice while dragging > on a cigarette). Daryl, I didn't know that you smoked. :-P Regards George Patterson From spam at afoyi.com Tue Feb 21 05:16:52 2006 From: spam at afoyi.com (Darryl Ross) Date: Tue, 21 Feb 2006 14:46:52 +1030 Subject: [sapug] LinuxSA tonight Message-ID: <43FA9434.9090505@afoyi.com> Heyo, How many people are going to LinuxSA tonight and then on to St Georgios afterwards? Might be a good time to catch up and say Hi? Regards Darryl -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 208 bytes Desc: OpenPGP digital signature Url : http://mail.python.org/pipermail/sapug/attachments/20060221/a4e1e145/attachment.pgp From Daryl.Tester at iocane.com.au Tue Feb 21 06:29:39 2006 From: Daryl.Tester at iocane.com.au (Daryl Tester) Date: Tue, 21 Feb 2006 15:59:39 +1030 Subject: [sapug] LinuxSA tonight In-Reply-To: <43FA9434.9090505@afoyi.com> References: <43FA9434.9090505@afoyi.com> Message-ID: <43FAA543.8040706@iocane.com.au> Darryl Ross wrote: > How many people are going to LinuxSA tonight and then on to St Georgios > afterwards? Can't make it tonight, which is a damn shame because the talk looks pretty interesting. -- Regards, Daryl Tester, IOCANE Pty. Ltd. From Daryl.Tester at iocane.com.au Sun Feb 26 22:04:31 2006 From: Daryl.Tester at iocane.com.au (Daryl Tester) Date: Mon, 27 Feb 2006 07:34:31 +1030 Subject: [sapug] rlcompleters Message-ID: <440217DF.4080507@iocane.com.au> There was a thread in linuxsa recently(-ish) regarding rlcompleter, which is a Python module you can import on startup to allow command line completion. I was poking around for similar modules which allowed introspection and found a (at the time broken) web site that has such a module. Now that the site is navigable again I present to you - http://codespeak.net/rlcompleter2/ The UI feels a little clunky to me (regards the default namespace as empty when dir() shows it has attributes, getting a function/method's signature is a little tricky when auto-completing) but heck, you get the source code to modify, and it retains the history between invocations (saving it to ~/.pythonhist). It's also aware of your screen length, using tab to scroll the remainder of the listing if necessary (making the tab key the next candidate for wearing out quicker than other keys, apart from the backspace :-). Example (note the type info preceding the attribute name): >>> import rlcompleter2; rlcompleter2.setup(); del rlcompleter2 Welcome to rlcompleter2 0.96 for nice experiences hit multiple times >>> *error nothing found, empty namespace? >>> __ * __debug__ : True, type: __import__*(4) -> module. Import a module. The globals are only used __builtins__ : , type: __doc__ : None, type: __name__ : __main__, type: >>> And printing out info from the docstring. >>> __import__( 0 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ 1 __import__(name, globals, locals, fromlist) -> module 2 3 Import a module. The globals are only used to determine the context; 4 they are not modified. The locals are currently unused. The fromlist 5 should be a list of names to emulate ``from name import ...'', or an 6 empty list to emulate ``import name''. 7 When importing a module from a package, note that __import__('A.B', ...) 8 returns package A when fromlist is empty, but its submodule B when 9 fromlist is not empty. -- Regards, Daryl Tester, IOCANE Pty. Ltd.