From ronaldoussoren at mac.com Sat Jan 2 04:36:15 2021 From: ronaldoussoren at mac.com (Ronald Oussoren) Date: Sat, 2 Jan 2021 10:36:15 +0100 Subject: [Pythonmac-SIG] [ANN] py2app 0.23 Message-ID: <0EA2EFC1-8369-4FA2-A287-1D32557D50AF@mac.com> Hi, Py2app 0.23 is on PyPI. There are two noteworthy changes: * Support building ?Universal 2? applications when using a ?universal2? build of Python * Proces ?@loader_path? in shared libraries, which should improve building apps based on wheels on PyPI that were build with the ?delocate? tool Ronald ? Twitter / micro.blog: @ronaldoussoren Blog: https://blog.ronaldoussoren.net/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From chris.barker at noaa.gov Thu Jan 14 17:07:21 2021 From: chris.barker at noaa.gov (Chris Barker) Date: Thu, 14 Jan 2021 14:07:21 -0800 Subject: [Pythonmac-SIG] "pythonw" in a Unix build Message-ID: Ned suggested I bring this conversation over here from python-dev, so here it is. What I'd like to see done is have the "pythonw" wrapper buildable in an otherwise non-framework build. I *think* there are no real technical show stoppers, but it would take some auto-conf magic, which I am fully unqualified to take on. Anyone interested in helping make this happen ? -CHB -- Christopher Barker, Ph.D. Oceanographer Emergency Response Division NOAA/NOS/OR&R (206) 526-6959 voice 7600 Sand Point Way NE (206) 526-6329 fax Seattle, WA 98115 (206) 526-6317 main reception Chris.Barker at noaa.gov -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jack.jansen at cwi.nl Thu Jan 14 17:59:37 2021 From: jack.jansen at cwi.nl (Jack Jansen) Date: Thu, 14 Jan 2021 23:59:37 +0100 Subject: [Pythonmac-SIG] "pythonw" in a Unix build In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I?m not sure there is a point anymore? For example, the brew Python is installed into a framework tucked away deep in /usr/local/Cellar but you don?t notice this at all: you can just use ?python foo.py? and the moment the script does GUI calls it?ll get an icon in the doc and all that. What problem are you trying to solve? Jack > On 14-Jan-2021, at 23:07 , Chris Barker via Pythonmac-SIG wrote: > > Ned suggested I bring this conversation over here from python-dev, so here it is. > > What I'd like to see done is have the "pythonw" wrapper buildable in an otherwise non-framework build. > > I *think* there are no real technical show stoppers, but it would take some auto-conf magic, which I am fully unqualified to take on. > > Anyone interested in helping make this happen ? > > -CHB > > > -- > > Christopher Barker, Ph.D. > Oceanographer > > Emergency Response Division > NOAA/NOS/OR&R (206) 526-6959 voice > 7600 Sand Point Way NE (206) 526-6329 fax > Seattle, WA 98115 (206) 526-6317 main reception > > Chris.Barker at noaa.gov _______________________________________________ > Pythonmac-SIG maillist - Pythonmac-SIG at python.org > https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pythonmac-sig > unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/Pythonmac-SIG -- Jack Jansen, , http://www.cwi.nl/~jack If I can't dance I don't want to be part of your revolution -- Emma Goldman -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pythonchb at gmail.com Fri Jan 15 00:24:04 2021 From: pythonchb at gmail.com (Christopher Barker) Date: Thu, 14 Jan 2021 21:24:04 -0800 Subject: [Pythonmac-SIG] "pythonw" in a Unix build In-Reply-To: References:

Message-ID: On Thu, Jan 14, 2021 at 3:14 PM Jack Jansen wrote: > For example, the brew Python is installed into a framework tucked away > deep in /usr/local/Cellar but you don?t notice this at all: you can just > use ?python foo.py? and the moment the script does GUI calls it?ll get an > icon in the doc and all that. > > What problem are you trying to solve? > It's interesting that brew python has decided to use a Framework build .... But the problem at hand is conda python which used a plain unix build. They have provided a shell script "pythonw" that re-directs to a python inside an app bundle, and that works OK on the command line, but it does not work with, e.g. setuptools entry points. I could dig up the threads, but this has been discussed on this list, and few gitHub issues. In short, there are a few ways to work around these issues, but no one (the conda people, the setuptools devs) wants to put the kludgy work around in their code. And we already have a work around in the core python code, it's just that the build system needs to be set up to build it outside of a Framework. -CHB > Jack > > On 14-Jan-2021, at 23:07 , Chris Barker via Pythonmac-SIG < > pythonmac-sig at python.org> wrote: > > Ned suggested I bring this conversation over here from python-dev, so here > it is. > > What I'd like to see done is have the "pythonw" wrapper buildable in an > otherwise non-framework build. > > I *think* there are no real technical show stoppers, but it would take > some auto-conf magic, which I am fully unqualified to take on. > > Anyone interested in helping make this happen ? > > -CHB > > > -- > > Christopher Barker, Ph.D. > Oceanographer > > Emergency Response Division > NOAA/NOS/OR&R (206) 526-6959 voice > 7600 Sand Point Way NE (206) 526-6329 fax > Seattle, WA 98115 (206) 526-6317 main reception > > Chris.Barker at noaa.gov > _______________________________________________ > Pythonmac-SIG maillist - Pythonmac-SIG at python.org > https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pythonmac-sig > unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/Pythonmac-SIG > > > -- > > Jack Jansen, , http://www.cwi.nl/~jack > > If I can't dance I don't want to be part of your revolution -- Emma Goldman > > > > _______________________________________________ > Pythonmac-SIG maillist - Pythonmac-SIG at python.org > https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pythonmac-sig > unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/Pythonmac-SIG > -- Christopher Barker, PhD (Chris) Python Language Consulting - Teaching - Scientific Software Development - Desktop GUI and Web Development - wxPython, numpy, scipy, Cython -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ronaldoussoren at mac.com Mon Jan 18 04:33:51 2021 From: ronaldoussoren at mac.com (Ronald Oussoren) Date: Mon, 18 Jan 2021 10:33:51 +0100 Subject: [Pythonmac-SIG] "pythonw" in a Unix build In-Reply-To: References:

Message-ID: > On 15 Jan 2021, at 06:24, Christopher Barker wrote: > > On Thu, Jan 14, 2021 at 3:14 PM Jack Jansen > wrote: > For example, the brew Python is installed into a framework tucked away deep in /usr/local/Cellar but you don?t notice this at all: you can just use ?python foo.py? and the moment the script does GUI calls it?ll get an icon in the doc and all that. > > What problem are you trying to solve? > > It's interesting that brew python has decided to use a Framework build .... > > But the problem at hand is conda python which used a plain unix build. Maybe they should switch to a framework build instead :-) > > They have provided a shell script "pythonw" that re-directs to a python inside an app bundle, and that works OK on the command line, but it does not work with, e.g. setuptools entry points. > > I could dig up the threads, but this has been discussed on this list, and few gitHub issues. As mentioned on python-dev adding the ?pythonw? functionality to the unix build is not very hard. I expect that integrating with the build system (Makefile/configure script) will be the hardest part due to introducing different behaviour for the macOS platform. > > In short, there are a few ways to work around these issues, but no one (the conda people, the setuptools devs) wants to put the kludgy work around in their code. > > And we already have a work around in the core python code, it's just that the build system needs to be set up to build it outside of a Framework. The framework build does not have a workaround for these problems, it has a proper solution ;-). Ronald > > -CHB > > > > Jack > >> On 14-Jan-2021, at 23:07 , Chris Barker via Pythonmac-SIG > wrote: >> >> Ned suggested I bring this conversation over here from python-dev, so here it is. >> >> What I'd like to see done is have the "pythonw" wrapper buildable in an otherwise non-framework build. >> >> I *think* there are no real technical show stoppers, but it would take some auto-conf magic, which I am fully unqualified to take on. >> >> Anyone interested in helping make this happen ? >> >> -CHB >> >> >> -- >> >> Christopher Barker, Ph.D. >> Oceanographer >> >> Emergency Response Division >> NOAA/NOS/OR&R (206) 526-6959 voice >> 7600 Sand Point Way NE (206) 526-6329 fax >> Seattle, WA 98115 (206) 526-6317 main reception >> >> Chris.Barker at noaa.gov _______________________________________________ >> Pythonmac-SIG maillist - Pythonmac-SIG at python.org >> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pythonmac-sig >> unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/Pythonmac-SIG > > -- > Jack Jansen, >, http://www.cwi.nl/~jack > If I can't dance I don't want to be part of your revolution -- Emma Goldman > > > > _______________________________________________ > Pythonmac-SIG maillist - Pythonmac-SIG at python.org > https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pythonmac-sig > unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/Pythonmac-SIG > > > -- > Christopher Barker, PhD (Chris) > > Python Language Consulting > - Teaching > - Scientific Software Development > - Desktop GUI and Web Development > - wxPython, numpy, scipy, Cython > _______________________________________________ > Pythonmac-SIG maillist - Pythonmac-SIG at python.org > https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pythonmac-sig > unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/Pythonmac-SIG ? Twitter / micro.blog: @ronaldoussoren Blog: https://blog.ronaldoussoren.net/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pythonchb at gmail.com Mon Jan 18 12:38:32 2021 From: pythonchb at gmail.com (Christopher Barker) Date: Mon, 18 Jan 2021 09:38:32 -0800 Subject: [Pythonmac-SIG] "pythonw" in a Unix build In-Reply-To: References:

Message-ID: On Mon, Jan 18, 2021 at 1:34 AM Ronald Oussoren wrote: > As mentioned on python-dev adding the ?pythonw? functionality to the unix > build is not very hard. I expect that integrating with the build system > (Makefile/configure script) will be the hardest part due to introducing > different behaviour for the macOS platform. > Thanks Ronald, that confirms my suspicions that this is really an autoconf issue. Which makes it an utter mystery to me :-( > And we already have a work around in the core python code, it's just that > the build system needs to be set up to build it outside of a Framework. > > The framework build does not have a workaround for these problems, it has > a proper solution ;-). > Glad to hear that -- in earlier conversations, I got the impression that you thought the executable wrapper was kind of a hack :-). Anyway -- if any of you have autoconf expertise and the inclination, I'd love to see this get done, and would be glad to help as best I can. -CHB -- Christopher Barker, PhD (Chris) Python Language Consulting - Teaching - Scientific Software Development - Desktop GUI and Web Development - wxPython, numpy, scipy, Cython -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jack.jansen at cwi.nl Mon Jan 18 19:33:27 2021 From: jack.jansen at cwi.nl (Jack Jansen) Date: Tue, 19 Jan 2021 01:33:27 +0100 Subject: [Pythonmac-SIG] "pythonw" in a Unix build In-Reply-To: References:

Message-ID: Christopher, it still isn't clear to me _why_ you wouldn?t want to use a framework build? The whole exercise feels a bit like discussions from 15 years ago, with Unix wizards who wanted MacOS to behave as if it was plain vanilla Unix without all the things Apple changed. And that is much less true today than it was then? Jack > On 18-Jan-2021, at 18:38 , Christopher Barker wrote: > > On Mon, Jan 18, 2021 at 1:34 AM Ronald Oussoren > wrote: > As mentioned on python-dev adding the ?pythonw? functionality to the unix build is not very hard. I expect that integrating with the build system (Makefile/configure script) will be the hardest part due to introducing different behaviour for the macOS platform. > > Thanks Ronald, that confirms my suspicions that this is really an autoconf issue. Which makes it an utter mystery to me :-( >> And we already have a work around in the core python code, it's just that the build system needs to be set up to build it outside of a Framework. > The framework build does not have a workaround for these problems, it has a proper solution ;-). > > Glad to hear that -- in earlier conversations, I got the impression that you thought the executable wrapper was kind of a hack :-). > > Anyway -- if any of you have autoconf expertise and the inclination, I'd love to see this get done, and would be glad to help as best I can. > > -CHB > > -- > Christopher Barker, PhD (Chris) > > Python Language Consulting > - Teaching > - Scientific Software Development > - Desktop GUI and Web Development > - wxPython, numpy, scipy, Cython -- Jack Jansen, , http://www.cwi.nl/~jack If I can't dance I don't want to be part of your revolution -- Emma Goldman -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pythonchb at gmail.com Mon Jan 18 20:23:21 2021 From: pythonchb at gmail.com (Christopher Barker) Date: Mon, 18 Jan 2021 17:23:21 -0800 Subject: [Pythonmac-SIG] "pythonw" in a Unix build In-Reply-To: References:

Message-ID: On Mon, Jan 18, 2021 at 4:33 PM Jack Jansen wrote: > it still isn't clear to me _why_ you wouldn?t want to use a framework > build? > on a personal level, it's because the conda folks really want to use a plain vanilla unix build -- and I want things to work with conda. As to why conda wants to do that, my thoughts: conda manages not just Python, but also a full set of other libraries, and even other languages (R, Julia, Java). In that way, it's a bit like homebrew or macports. However, It also tries to be as platform-neutral as possible, so anything that works one way on conda works that same way on all platforms. And in practice, it solves a LOT of problems, problems that were a pain in the neck for years on the Mac. Also in practice, treating OS-X as "just another unix" works quite well in almost all ways -- there are a few addicted here than there, though those are mostly about clang than OS-X per se. But most things "just work". > The whole exercise feels a bit like discussions from 15 years ago, with > Unix wizards who wanted MacOS to behave as if it was plain vanilla Unix > without all the things Apple changed. And that is much less true today than > it was then? > Another practical consideration is that the vast majority of Python developers that use Macs use them like a Unix system: data analysis, web development, etc, etc. It's only desktop GUI software that poses any issues, and this is the only issue (that I know of) for that. There was an experiment with using a Framework build in conda a while back -- it immediately ran into the issue that it would be incompatible with all existing conda-python packages, so that's not good. It could be that that could be addressed with appropriate symlinks, but not one did a thorough testing. Another issue is that conda now supports platform-independent Python packages -- and that would get a lot harder with a Framework build. (though again, maybe a full set of links could solve that) It's also the case that using a Framework build inside conda buys us absolutely nothing -- it just makes things gratuitously different from the other *nix systems for no gain. I appreciate the idea of frameworks, but a) I don't think Frameworks were really designed for things like python anyway, and b) conda is solving all the problems that Frameworks solve but -- in a different, and platform independent way. In short: building python as a framework in conda would create an incompatibility with no gain. The only reason to do it would be to get the "pythonw" executable, and that doesn't actually require a Framework -- "just" some new build scripts. Anyway, if the folks that want this do the work, it looks like it can happen, and if not, then I guess we won't get it. Fair enough. -Chris On 18-Jan-2021, at 18:38 , Christopher Barker wrote: > > On Mon, Jan 18, 2021 at 1:34 AM Ronald Oussoren > wrote: > >> As mentioned on python-dev adding the ?pythonw? functionality to the unix >> build is not very hard. I expect that integrating with the build system >> (Makefile/configure script) will be the hardest part due to introducing >> different behaviour for the macOS platform. >> > > Thanks Ronald, that confirms my suspicions that this is really an autoconf > issue. Which makes it an utter mystery to me :-( > >> And we already have a work around in the core python code, it's just that >> the build system needs to be set up to build it outside of a Framework. >> >> The framework build does not have a workaround for these problems, it has >> a proper solution ;-). >> > > Glad to hear that -- in earlier conversations, I got the impression that > you thought the executable wrapper was kind of a hack :-). > > Anyway -- if any of you have autoconf expertise and the inclination, I'd > love to see this get done, and would be glad to help as best I can. > > -CHB > > -- > Christopher Barker, PhD (Chris) > > Python Language Consulting > - Teaching > - Scientific Software Development > - Desktop GUI and Web Development > - wxPython, numpy, scipy, Cython > > > -- > > Jack Jansen, , http://www.cwi.nl/~jack > > If I can't dance I don't want to be part of your revolution -- Emma Goldman > > > > -- Christopher Barker, PhD (Chris) Python Language Consulting - Teaching - Scientific Software Development - Desktop GUI and Web Development - wxPython, numpy, scipy, Cython -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ronaldoussoren at mac.com Tue Jan 19 03:30:48 2021 From: ronaldoussoren at mac.com (Ronald Oussoren) Date: Tue, 19 Jan 2021 09:30:48 +0100 Subject: [Pythonmac-SIG] "pythonw" in a Unix build In-Reply-To: References:

Message-ID: > On 18 Jan 2021, at 18:38, Christopher Barker wrote: > > On Mon, Jan 18, 2021 at 1:34 AM Ronald Oussoren > wrote: > As mentioned on python-dev adding the ?pythonw? functionality to the unix build is not very hard. I expect that integrating with the build system (Makefile/configure script) will be the hardest part due to introducing different behaviour for the macOS platform. > > Thanks Ronald, that confirms my suspicions that this is really an autoconf issue. Which makes it an utter mystery to me :-( Most of the relevant build machinery is in the Makefile. And looking at this there?s already precedent for checking for macOS there, ?python-config? is a shell script on all platforms except macOS, and the makefile fragment for building it checks if we?re on macOS without using autoconf. >> And we already have a work around in the core python code, it's just that the build system needs to be set up to build it outside of a Framework. > The framework build does not have a workaround for these problems, it has a proper solution ;-). > > Glad to hear that -- in earlier conversations, I got the impression that you thought the executable wrapper was kind of a hack :-). In the end it is a workaround for a platform feature that?s causing problems, but Python.app in the framework build is a proper app bundle. Using a shell script for the same functionality is a hack (he says without having looked at that script) ;-) > > Anyway -- if any of you have autoconf expertise and the inclination, I'd love to see this get done, and would be glad to help as best I can. > > -CHB > > -- > Christopher Barker, PhD (Chris) > > Python Language Consulting > - Teaching > - Scientific Software Development > - Desktop GUI and Web Development > - wxPython, numpy, scipy, Cython Ronald ? Twitter / micro.blog: @ronaldoussoren Blog: https://blog.ronaldoussoren.net/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: