[Pythonmac-SIG] a beginner's list

[Kevin Ollivier]

Hi Bob,

On Feb 8, 2006, at 5:47 PM, Bob Ippolito wrote:

>
> On Feb 8, 2006, at 2:11 PM, Kevin Ollivier wrote:
>
>>
>> On Feb 8, 2006, at 1:34 PM, Bob Ippolito wrote:
>>
>> [snip]
>>
>>>>
>>>> It's a bit confusing to talk as if needing new extensions ==
>>>> breakage. (You know you're a geek when it's second nature to write
>>>> equality tests like this. ;-) I remember Python 2.1 and I've had to
>>>> upgrade several times, and I never thought of re-installing my
>>>> extensions as 'fixing what broke'. I called it 'upgrading'. Some
>>>> people may see initially see what appears to be broken scripts, but
>>>> unfortunately that would just be because they aren't aware of  
>>>> issues
>>>> that may occur when upgrading their Python install. I don't  
>>>> think the
>>>> proper solution is to keep them from upgrading; we just need to  
>>>> build
>>>> awareness that a new Python major version means new extensions.
>>>
>>> We're talking about upgrading Mac OS X, which implicitly upgrades
>>> Python and obsoletes all of your extensions.  I'd call that  
>>> breaking.
>>
>> As does just explicitly upgrading your Python. I don't see why it's
>> breaking if you install Leopard, but upgrading if you install
>> MacPython 2.4 from pythonmac.org. Either way, your 2.3 extensions
>> don't work and you have to start from scratch. And either way, if you
>> thought things would "just work" you're in for a rude awakening.
>
> The difference is that if I didn't know better, I'd get really  
> pissed off if I upgraded my OS and all of my very important work  
> stuff breaks and makes me waste a day tracking down what needs to  
> be fixed.  That's not what an OS upgrade is supposed to do.  It  
> doesn't do that for anything except applications that depend on  
> moving targets like the system's Python or Perl interpreter.

I'd get really pissed off if I didn't know better and things stopped  
working regardless of how I upgraded Python. You'd consider whose  
Python broke your stuff into your decision to get upset?

All Apple is doing is including Python with their OS, and  
occasionally updating it. That these updates can cause not-so- 
pleasant things to happen due to how Python works is not Apple's  
fault. A lot of the speech on here practically accuses Apple of  
causing the problem and it's really not fair.

> If a third party Python had been used all along, the user has  
> freedom to upgrade their OS *and/or* their interpreter on their  
> schedule.

Sure, but it's got nothing to do with problems in Apple's Python and  
everything to do with avoiding upgrades to avoid updating extensions.  
So be straight with users - tell them things break when Python is  
upgraded to a new major version; don't tell them (or suggest) things  
break because Apple is doing it.

Kevin

> -bob
>