From Jack.Jansen at cwi.nl Tue Jul 1 17:23:14 2003 From: Jack.Jansen at cwi.nl (Jack Jansen) Date: Tue Jul 1 10:21:12 2003 Subject: [Pythonmac-SIG] Need a stand-in moderator Message-ID: <8CE68F90-ABCF-11D7-BB47-0030655234CE@cwi.nl> Folks, we need a stand-in moderator for the list while I'm away on holidays (2 weeks from monday). This was never needed before, but nowadays there's about 10-20 blocked posts per day, most either viruses or mailer-daemon preplies to viruses. Most regular posts that get blocked are quickly solved because the people sending them subscribe to the list and then re-post, but some do remain waiting and need to be manually pushed through. Any takers? -- Jack Jansen, , http://www.cwi.nl/~jack If I can't dance I don't want to be part of your revolution -- Emma Goldman From jmillr at umich.edu Tue Jul 1 15:11:14 2003 From: jmillr at umich.edu (John Miller) Date: Tue Jul 1 14:11:18 2003 Subject: [Pythonmac-SIG] cjkcodecs-0.9 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <66E86636-ABEF-11D7-B44C-00039303967A@umich.edu> Hi, I installed the cjkcodecs-0.9 package on my MacOS X 10.2.6 machine running Python 2.2. (No version of MacPython installed.) I then went into the 'tests' directory and issued the command 'python testall.py' but got an error message: ''' [moire:/cjkcodecs-0.9/tests] jmillr% python testall.py Traceback (most recent call last): File "testall.py", line 35, in ? from test import test_support ImportError: No module named test ''' I wrote to the developer asking for ideas, and he wrote back: ''' 'tests' package is included in Python. I think you need to install python-devel package or something like that. ''' If this is accurate, does anyone have any suggestions on how to do this so that it is integrated with the existing python (that is, not another entire installation)? If it is not accurate, are there any ideas on where to get the 'test' module? Thanks! John Miller From Jack.Jansen at cwi.nl Tue Jul 1 22:58:35 2003 From: Jack.Jansen at cwi.nl (Jack Jansen) Date: Tue Jul 1 15:58:41 2003 Subject: [Pythonmac-SIG] Need a stand-in moderator In-Reply-To: <16129.44038.645690.393165@montanaro.dyndns.org> References: <8CE68F90-ABCF-11D7-BB47-0030655234CE@cwi.nl> <16129.44038.645690.393165@montanaro.dyndns.org> Message-ID: <6637EDD4-ABFE-11D7-8DAC-000A27B19B96@cwi.nl> On dinsdag, 1 juli 2003, at 17:43PM, Skip Montanaro wrote: > I'm used to doing that for python-help already. I'd be happy to help > out. Ok, great! Shall I have the moderator mail go to you as well, or will you just wander by every day or so? Thanks to everyone else for the offers, but as Skip knows the ins and outs I think I'll drop it on him this time:-) From Jack.Jansen at cwi.nl Tue Jul 1 23:20:47 2003 From: Jack.Jansen at cwi.nl (Jack Jansen) Date: Tue Jul 1 16:20:55 2003 Subject: [Pythonmac-SIG] cjkcodecs-0.9 In-Reply-To: <66E86636-ABEF-11D7-B44C-00039303967A@umich.edu> References: <66E86636-ABEF-11D7-B44C-00039303967A@umich.edu> Message-ID: <802F9D5E-AC01-11D7-8DAC-000A27B19B96@cwi.nl> On dinsdag, 1 juli 2003, at 20:11PM, John Miller wrote: > Hi, > I installed the cjkcodecs-0.9 package on my MacOS X 10.2.6 machine > running Python 2.2. (No version of MacPython installed.) I then went > into the 'tests' directory and issued the command 'python testall.py' > but got an error message: > > ''' > [moire:/cjkcodecs-0.9/tests] jmillr% python testall.py > Traceback (most recent call last): > File "testall.py", line 35, in ? > from test import test_support > ImportError: No module named test Apple left the Python test stuff out of their distribution for Jaguar, for unknown reasons (probably oversight). You should be able to grab the Lib/test directory from a source distribution and drop it into /usr/lib/python2.2. Alternatively, you could install Python 2.2.3 through fink (if you don't mind letting fink on your machine), or install 2.2.3 from source yourself. From jmillr at umich.edu Tue Jul 1 21:41:48 2003 From: jmillr at umich.edu (John Miller) Date: Tue Jul 1 20:41:53 2003 Subject: [Pythonmac-SIG] cjkcodecs-0.9 In-Reply-To: <802F9D5E-AC01-11D7-8DAC-000A27B19B96@cwi.nl> Message-ID: On Tuesday, July 1, 2003, at 04:20 PM, Jack Jansen wrote: > Apple left the Python test stuff out of their distribution for Jaguar, > for unknown reasons (probably oversight). > > You should be able to grab the Lib/test directory from a source > distribution and drop it into /usr/lib/python2.2. Alternatively, you > could install Python 2.2.3 through fink (if you don't mind letting > fink on your machine), or install 2.2.3 from source yourself. Okay, it works now. Thanks! However, now I'd like to update (replace) the 2.2 version of Python that Apple ships with Jaguar to 2.2.3. I'd like to check that this would be the way to do it: 1) After downloading and unpacking Python-2.2.3.tgz I go into the top level of the Python-2.2.3 directory and issue the following commands: ./configure --prefix /usr/lib --exec-prefix /usr/bin # I think this matches Apple's default structure 2) Then type 'make' 3) Then type 'make test' # optional 4) Then type 'sudo make install' Have I got it right? Thanks! John From oussoren at cistron.nl Wed Jul 2 08:38:12 2003 From: oussoren at cistron.nl (Ronald Oussoren) Date: Wed Jul 2 01:38:14 2003 Subject: [Pythonmac-SIG] cjkcodecs-0.9 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5EDF01E8-AC4F-11D7-88F1-0003931CFE24@cistron.nl> On Wednesday, Jul 2, 2003, at 02:41 Europe/Amsterdam, John Miller wrote: > On Tuesday, July 1, 2003, at 04:20 PM, Jack Jansen wrote: > >> Apple left the Python test stuff out of their distribution for >> Jaguar, for unknown reasons (probably oversight). >> >> You should be able to grab the Lib/test directory from a source >> distribution and drop it into /usr/lib/python2.2. Alternatively, you >> could install Python 2.2.3 through fink (if you don't mind letting >> fink on your machine), or install 2.2.3 from source yourself. > > Okay, it works now. Thanks! > > However, now I'd like to update (replace) the 2.2 version of Python > that Apple ships with Jaguar to 2.2.3. I'd like to check that this > would be the way to do it: > > 1) After downloading and unpacking Python-2.2.3.tgz I go into the top > level of the Python-2.2.3 directory and issue the following commands: > > ./configure --prefix /usr/lib --exec-prefix /usr/bin # I think this > matches Apple's default structure I strongly advise not to do this. Apple might ship updates that update (parts of) python, those would revert some of you new installation to an older version of python. There's also the risk of backward compatibility, the Python developers try really hard to keep 2.2.x releases backward compatible but someone may rely on a bug in 2.2.0. You might get errors from seemingly unrelated sofware after upgrading. It's better to install in /usr/local and make sure /usr/local/bin is before /usr/bin on you $PATH. Ronald From Jack.Jansen at cwi.nl Wed Jul 2 11:55:53 2003 From: Jack.Jansen at cwi.nl (Jack Jansen) Date: Wed Jul 2 04:53:52 2003 Subject: [Pythonmac-SIG] cjkcodecs-0.9 In-Reply-To: <5EDF01E8-AC4F-11D7-88F1-0003931CFE24@cistron.nl> Message-ID: On Wednesday, Jul 2, 2003, at 07:38 Europe/Amsterdam, Ronald Oussoren wrote: >> ./configure --prefix /usr/lib --exec-prefix /usr/bin # I think this >> matches Apple's default structure > > I strongly advise not to do this. Ronald is right: don't do this. But if you are going to do it anyway you should do ./configure --prefix /usr -- Jack Jansen, , http://www.cwi.nl/~jack If I can't dance I don't want to be part of your revolution -- Emma Goldman From smithsm at samuelsmith.org Wed Jul 2 09:42:57 2003 From: smithsm at samuelsmith.org (Samuel M. Smith) Date: Wed Jul 2 10:43:29 2003 Subject: [Pythonmac-SIG] OS X Python and Readline In-Reply-To: <3EDA4B95-A8DC-11D7-AD73-000A95686CD8@redivi.com> Message-ID: <7887CF1C-AC9B-11D7-839D-00039346A274@samuelsmith.org> I have been following the list messages about installing OS X python and now I am confused. I have been using fink python but have decided to jump over to OS X python but it looks like I have to do some extra work like installing readline and waste to get a fully functional python with the IDE running. My daughter has been using python and when she upgraded to 2.3 the IDE broke. Could someone please clarify what all is needed to really install OS X Python and what stuff must be deleted from old installs and or interactions with fink installed stuff. The web site doesn't really mention these extra complications. Thanks, Sam ********************************************************************** Samuel M. Smith Ph.D. 360 W. 920 N. Orem, Utah 84057 801-226-7607 x112 (voice) 801-226-7608 (fax) ********************************************************************** "The greatest source of failure and unhappiness in the world is giving up what we want most for what we want at the moment" ********************************************************************** From Jack.Jansen at cwi.nl Wed Jul 2 18:03:40 2003 From: Jack.Jansen at cwi.nl (Jack Jansen) Date: Wed Jul 2 11:01:36 2003 Subject: [Pythonmac-SIG] For your eyes only - MacPython 2.3b2 installer available Message-ID: <5D7A0A4A-AC9E-11D7-95CA-0030655234CE@cwi.nl> Folks, a 2.3b2 installer for MacPython (the OSX version, currently for 10.2 only) is available at . Please give it a try and let me know whether it works. If it does then I'll advertise this more widely tomorrow. -- Jack Jansen, , http://www.cwi.nl/~jack If I can't dance I don't want to be part of your revolution -- Emma Goldman From jmillr at umich.edu Wed Jul 2 12:04:35 2003 From: jmillr at umich.edu (John Miller) Date: Wed Jul 2 11:04:41 2003 Subject: [Pythonmac-SIG] cjkcodecs-0.9 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <7E28C57A-AC9E-11D7-AF73-00039303967A@umich.edu> On Wednesday, July 2, 2003, at 04:55 AM, Jack Jansen wrote: > On Wednesday, Jul 2, 2003, at 07:38 Europe/Amsterdam, Ronald Oussoren > wrote: > >>> ./configure --prefix /usr/lib --exec-prefix /usr/bin # I think this >>> matches Apple's default structure >> >> I strongly advise not to do this. > > Ronald is right: don't do this. But if you are going to do it anyway > you should do > ./configure --prefix /usr Thank-you both for your warnings. However, these have to be balanced against my own trepidations about managing two python installations. Furthermore, I believe Apple is very unlikely to change the current Python 2.2 in Jaguar, and besides, I fully expect to upgrade to Panther (hence Python 2.3) when it becomes available. Anyway, I've made the substitution, and all seems well. Thanks again for your help. John From skip at pobox.com Wed Jul 2 11:44:34 2003 From: skip at pobox.com (Skip Montanaro) Date: Wed Jul 2 11:44:46 2003 Subject: [Pythonmac-SIG] For your eyes only - MacPython 2.3b2 installer available In-Reply-To: <5D7A0A4A-AC9E-11D7-95CA-0030655234CE@cwi.nl> References: <5D7A0A4A-AC9E-11D7-95CA-0030655234CE@cwi.nl> Message-ID: <16130.64994.86424.388716@montanaro.dyndns.org> Jack> Please give it a try and let me know whether it works. If it does Jack> then I'll advertise this more widely tomorrow. It installed okay for me (Powerbook, OSX 10.26). At first I thought it created two folders inside Applications, Python and MacPython-2.3. I must have been dreaming though. What is the PackageManager for? Double-clicking it does nothing. The Extras/ReadMe file says: ... or while double-clicking the script, if PythonLauncher is set as the default application to open Python scripts with I can't seem to make PythonLauncher the default application for Python scripts. How do I do that? The sense of the hover string in the "Enable TAB consistency checking" in the PythonLauncher preferences seems reversed. I think it should read "Complain about mixing of tabs and spaces". Skip From deleeuw at stat.ucla.edu Wed Jul 2 10:52:27 2003 From: deleeuw at stat.ucla.edu (Jan de Leeuw) Date: Wed Jul 2 12:52:33 2003 Subject: [Pythonmac-SIG] Packagemanager in new install Message-ID: <8FB0B0F3-ACAD-11D7-AF88-000393BB6D36@stat.ucla.edu> Does less than before (when it choked on wxPython). Now Traceback (most recent call last): File "/Users/deleeuw/Applications/Programming/MacPython-2.3/ PackageManager.app/Contents/MacOS/PackageManager", line 17, in ? os.execve(executable, sys.argv, os.environ) OSError: [Errno 2] No such file or directory Does it need to be in /Applications ? === Jan de Leeuw; Professor and Chair, UCLA Department of Statistics; Editor: Journal of Multivariate Analysis, Journal of Statistical Software US mail: 9432 Boelter Hall, Box 951554, Los Angeles, CA 90095-1554 phone (310)-825-9550; fax (310)-206-5658; email: deleeuw@stat.ucla.edu homepage: http://gifi.stat.ucla.edu ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------- No matter where you go, there you are. --- Buckaroo Banzai http://gifi.stat.ucla.edu/sounds/nomatter.au ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------- -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/enriched Size: 1075 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://mail.python.org/pipermail/pythonmac-sig/attachments/20030702/fd770186/attachment.bin From rowen at cesmail.net Wed Jul 2 12:22:48 2003 From: rowen at cesmail.net (Russell E. Owen) Date: Wed Jul 2 14:25:14 2003 Subject: [Pythonmac-SIG] Re: For your eyes only - MacPython 2.3b2 installer available References: <5D7A0A4A-AC9E-11D7-95CA-0030655234CE@cwi.nl> Message-ID: In article <5D7A0A4A-AC9E-11D7-95CA-0030655234CE@cwi.nl>, Jack Jansen wrote: > Folks, > a 2.3b2 installer for MacPython (the OSX version, currently for 10.2 > only) > is available at > . > > Please give it a try and let me know whether it works. If it does then > I'll advertise > this more widely tomorrow. > -- > Jack Jansen, , http://www.cwi.nl/~jack > If I can't dance I don't want to be part of your revolution -- Emma > Goldman > > > _______________________________________________ > Pythonmac-SIG maillist - Pythonmac-SIG@python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pythonmac-sig > Two questions: - How much should I uninstall first to really give it a good workout? Obvious options include: - /Library/Frameworks/Python - /Library/Frameworks/Tcl and Tk - /usr/local/what? - Will the package manager do a full installation of Tkinter, or do I have to install Tk and Tcl myself? (For 2.3b1 tcl and tk were in the "hidden" list, but I'd already installed them so I never tested if it could install them for me). -- Russell From Jack.Jansen at cwi.nl Thu Jul 3 00:45:12 2003 From: Jack.Jansen at cwi.nl (Jack Jansen) Date: Wed Jul 2 17:45:23 2003 Subject: [Pythonmac-SIG] For your eyes only - MacPython 2.3b2 installer available In-Reply-To: <16130.64994.86424.388716@montanaro.dyndns.org> Message-ID: <75799720-ACD6-11D7-A4ED-000A27B19B96@cwi.nl> On woensdag, jul 2, 2003, at 17:44 Europe/Amsterdam, Skip Montanaro wrote: > It installed okay for me (Powerbook, OSX 10.26). At first I thought it > created two folders inside Applications, Python and MacPython-2.3. I > must > have been dreaming though. What is the PackageManager for? > Double-clicking > it does nothing. Hmm, strange. Could you check in the Console (Applications->Utilities->Console) whether there's any output there that show what could cause this? Also, does the PythonIDE run normally? And: is anyone else having success running Package Manager? BTW: there are at the moment very few (one:-) packages in the database. I hope to add another couple before I go on holidays, but don't hold your breath. If you want to live dangerously visit and try the packages in the experimental database, but this is basically the 2.3b1 database so there's a good chance things won't work). > The Extras/ReadMe file says: > > ... or while double-clicking the script, if PythonLauncher is set > as the > default application to open Python scripts with > > I can't seem to make PythonLauncher the default application for Python > scripts. How do I do that? > > The sense of the hover string in the "Enable TAB consistency checking" > in > the PythonLauncher preferences seems reversed. I think it should read > "Complain about mixing of tabs and spaces". Thanks for the report, I'll fix these! -- - Jack Jansen http://www.cwi.nl/~jack - - If I can't dance I don't want to be part of your revolution -- Emma Goldman - From Jack.Jansen at cwi.nl Thu Jul 3 00:54:49 2003 From: Jack.Jansen at cwi.nl (Jack Jansen) Date: Wed Jul 2 17:54:55 2003 Subject: [Pythonmac-SIG] Re: For your eyes only - MacPython 2.3b2 installer available In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On woensdag, jul 2, 2003, at 20:22 Europe/Amsterdam, Russell E. Owen wrote: > Two questions: > - How much should I uninstall first to really give it a good workout? > Obvious options include: > - /Library/Frameworks/Python > - /Library/Frameworks/Tcl and Tk > - /usr/local/what? I always clean out /Library/Frameworks/Python.framework and /Applications/MacPython-2.3. I wouldn't clean out the Tcl and Tk frameworks, these aren't installed by Python. You're right about the symlinks in /usr/local/bin (python, python2.3, pythonw and pythonw2.3) but I tend to forget about these myself:-) > - Will the package manager do a full installation of Tkinter, or do I > have to install Tk and Tcl myself? (For 2.3b1 tcl and tk were in the > "hidden" list, but I'd already installed them so I never tested if it > could install them for me). You have to install Tcl and Tk yourself. But: if you haven't installed them and you try to install Tkinter what should happen is that "show hidden" automatically becomes checked, so you actually see the AquaTclTk package, and if you select that package you get instructions on how to install it. But if someone actually wants to test this: yes please! -- - Jack Jansen http://www.cwi.nl/~jack - - If I can't dance I don't want to be part of your revolution -- Emma Goldman - From Jack.Jansen at cwi.nl Thu Jul 3 01:06:12 2003 From: Jack.Jansen at cwi.nl (Jack Jansen) Date: Wed Jul 2 18:06:17 2003 Subject: [Pythonmac-SIG] Packagemanager in new install In-Reply-To: <8FB0B0F3-ACAD-11D7-AF88-000393BB6D36@stat.ucla.edu> Message-ID: <64958582-ACD9-11D7-A4ED-000A27B19B96@cwi.nl> On woensdag, jul 2, 2003, at 18:52 Europe/Amsterdam, Jan de Leeuw wrote: > Does less than before (when it choked on wxPython). Now > > Traceback (most recent call last): > File > "/Users/deleeuw/Applications/Programming/MacPython-2.3/ > PackageManager.app/Contents/MacOS/PackageManager", line 17, in ? > os.execve(executable, sys.argv, os.environ) > OSError: [Errno 2] No such file or directory > > Does it need to be in /Applications ? Hmm, strange. Did you move the applet after building it (or installing it from a binary installer)? Even so, the applets should be robust against this. The only thing you should not move is the Python.framework. Did you do so by any chance? If you did we should warn against this in the documentation... To debug this, could you edit the file mentioned in the traceback (it's a Python script that is used as the bootstrap in the applet) and just before the failing os.execve() print execdir, executable, sys.argv[0] and sys.prefix? -- - Jack Jansen http://www.cwi.nl/~jack - - If I can't dance I don't want to be part of your revolution -- Emma Goldman - From deleeuw at stat.ucla.edu Wed Jul 2 16:40:43 2003 From: deleeuw at stat.ucla.edu (Jan de Leeuw) Date: Wed Jul 2 18:40:49 2003 Subject: [Pythonmac-SIG] o, i see Message-ID: <3721DCFC-ACDE-11D7-AF88-000393BB6D36@stat.ucla.edu> cabledoc94:/Library/Frameworks] deleeuw% ls -l /Applications/MacPython-2.3/PackageManager.app/Contents/MacOS/ total 32 -rwxrwxr-x 1 root admin 720 Jul 2 15:38 PackageManager -rwxrwxr-x 1 root admin 710 Jul 2 15:29 PackageManager~ lrwxrwxr-x 1 root admin 92 Jul 2 15:38 python -> /Library/Frameworks/Python.framework/Versions/2.3/Resources/Python.app/ Contents/MacOS/python lrwxrwxr-x 1 root admin 58 Jul 2 15:38 python.exe -> /Users/jack/src/python-23b1/build-distframework/python.exe === Jan de Leeuw; Professor and Chair, UCLA Department of Statistics; Editor: Journal of Multivariate Analysis, Journal of Statistical Software US mail: 9432 Boelter Hall, Box 951554, Los Angeles, CA 90095-1554 phone (310)-825-9550; fax (310)-206-5658; email: deleeuw@stat.ucla.edu homepage: http://gifi.stat.ucla.edu ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------- No matter where you go, there you are. --- Buckaroo Banzai http://gifi.stat.ucla.edu/sounds/nomatter.au ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------- From deleeuw at stat.ucla.edu Wed Jul 2 16:32:11 2003 From: deleeuw at stat.ucla.edu (Jan de Leeuw) Date: Wed Jul 2 18:41:13 2003 Subject: [Pythonmac-SIG] Packagemanager in new install In-Reply-To: <64958582-ACD9-11D7-A4ED-000A27B19B96@cwi.nl> Message-ID: <05D5191E-ACDD-11D7-AF88-000393BB6D36@stat.ucla.edu> This was from the new binary installer. Just to make sure, I renamed my old framework, and did a fresh install. Same problem. With the additional print command print(execdir,executable,sys.argv[0],sys.prefix) I get ('/Applications/MacPython-2.3/PackageManager.app/Contents/MacOS', '/Applications/MacPython-2.3/PackageManager.app/Contents/MacOS/ python.exe', '/Applications/MacPython-2.3/PackageManager.app/Contents/MacOS/ PackageManager', '/Library/Frameworks/Python.framework/Versions/2.3') Traceback (most recent call last): File "/Applications/MacPython-2.3/PackageManager.app/Contents/MacOS/ PackageManager", line 18, in ? os.execve(executable, sys.argv, os.environ) OSError: [Errno 2] No such file or directory On Wednesday, Jul 2, 2003, at 15:06 US/Pacific, Jack Jansen wrote: > > On woensdag, jul 2, 2003, at 18:52 Europe/Amsterdam, Jan de Leeuw > wrote: > >> Does less than before (when it choked on wxPython). Now >> >> Traceback (most recent call last): >> File >> "/Users/deleeuw/Applications/Programming/MacPython-2.3/ >> PackageManager.app/Contents/MacOS/PackageManager", line 17, in ? >> os.execve(executable, sys.argv, os.environ) >> OSError: [Errno 2] No such file or directory >> >> Does it need to be in /Applications ? > > Hmm, strange. Did you move the applet after building it (or installing > it from a binary > installer)? Even so, the applets should be robust against this. The > only thing you > should not move is the Python.framework. Did you do so by any chance? > If you did we > should warn against this in the documentation... > > To debug this, could you edit the file mentioned in the traceback > (it's a Python script > that is used as the bootstrap in the applet) and just before the > failing os.execve() > print execdir, executable, sys.argv[0] and sys.prefix? > > -- > - Jack Jansen > http://www.cwi.nl/~jack - > - If I can't dance I don't want to be part of your revolution -- Emma > Goldman - > > === Jan de Leeuw; Professor and Chair, UCLA Department of Statistics; Editor: Journal of Multivariate Analysis, Journal of Statistical Software US mail: 9432 Boelter Hall, Box 951554, Los Angeles, CA 90095-1554 phone (310)-825-9550; fax (310)-206-5658; email: deleeuw@stat.ucla.edu homepage: http://gifi.stat.ucla.edu ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------- No matter where you go, there you are. --- Buckaroo Banzai http://gifi.stat.ucla.edu/sounds/nomatter.au ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------- -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/enriched Size: 2707 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://mail.python.org/pipermail/pythonmac-sig/attachments/20030702/f617603f/attachment.bin From brian_l at mac.com Wed Jul 2 16:58:03 2003 From: brian_l at mac.com (Brian Lenihan) Date: Wed Jul 2 18:58:37 2003 Subject: [Pythonmac-SIG] For your eyes only - MacPython 2.3b2 installer available In-Reply-To: <5D7A0A4A-AC9E-11D7-95CA-0030655234CE@cwi.nl> Message-ID: On Wednesday, July 2, 2003, at 08:03 AM, Jack Jansen wrote: > Folks, > a 2.3b2 installer for MacPython (the OSX version, currently for 10.2 > only) > is available at > . > > Please give it a try and let me know whether it works. If it does then > I'll advertise > this more widely tomorrow. The previously reported PackageManager problem - executable = os.path.join(execdir, "python.exe") import test.autotest results in a usage message being printed and a traceback: option -p not recognized Traceback (most recent call last): File "", line 1, in ? File "/Library/Frameworks/Python.framework/Versions/2.3/lib/python2.3/test/ autotest.py", line 6, in ? regrtest.main() File "/Library/Frameworks/Python.framework/Versions/2.3/lib/python2.3/test/ regrtest.py", line 150, in main usage(2, msg) File "/Library/Frameworks/Python.framework/Versions/2.3/lib/python2.3/test/ regrtest.py", line 114, in usage sys.exit(code) SystemExit: 2 import test.autotest results from the command line: 25 tests skipped: test_al test_bsddb3 test_cd test_cl test_curses test_dl test_email_codecs test_gl test_imgfile test_largefile test_linuxaudiodev test_locale test_nis test_normalization test_ossaudiodev test_pep277 test_poll test_socket_ssl test_socketserver test_sunaudiodev test_threaded_import test_timeout test_urllibnet test_winreg test_winsound 1 skip unexpected on darwin: test_threaded_import Should the help docs be available in the IDE? Perhaps they could be a package to keep the installer size down. The Numeric package installed using the PackageManager The AquaTk package description does not make it clear to the user what should be done other than providing a show homepage button. My previously installed AquaTK works. From owen at astro.washington.edu Wed Jul 2 17:11:34 2003 From: owen at astro.washington.edu (Russell E Owen) Date: Wed Jul 2 19:11:38 2003 Subject: [Pythonmac-SIG] installer bugs Message-ID: What I did: - Move the following out of /Library/Frameworks: Python.framework (which had 2.3b1) Tcl.framework Tk.framework - Move the following out of /Applications: MacPython-2.3 Util/Wish shell - Deleted the following: /usr/local/bin/python /usr/local/bin/python2.3 /usr/local/bin/pythonw /usr/local/bin/pythonw2.3 I left my unix/X installation of /usr/local/bin/python2.2 and all other /usr/local stuff (including a unix/X version of Tcl/Tk). I then ran the installer. - **** Minor Bug? ***** "Select a Destination" page of the installer says "Installing this software requires 0 bytes of disk space". This is after selecting a suitable disk (I only have one). - The next page claims it'll be doing an upgrade. Interesting. I wonder how it knew. As a long shot, I wonder if this is related to the claim of 0 bytes (if it thought it was going to overwrite an existing installation...). I then ran the IDE. It seems to work, but it's not seeing PYTHONPATH (which is defined in ~/.MacOSX/environment.plist so aqua applications do normally see it). Strange, but perhaps this was true for 2.3b1 as well...I'm not sure I ever tried. **** Bug ***** I then ran the package manager, to try to install Tkinter. The IDE launched, but then I got an error message: Cannot open http://www.python.org/packman/ version-0.3/darwin-6.3-Power_Macintosh.plist: HTTP Error 404: Not Found See MacPython Package Manager help page. The install manager then was visible, but with no entries. So I looked at the help (the entry is actually called "Installing additional Python packages with the Package Manager", so I confess it took me a bit to find it). Anyway, it suggested I might find an alternative package manager at "http://www.python.org/packman" so I naively tried entering exactly that into the Open URL... dialog box and got a traceback: *** Misfeature; a warning message (e.g. "invalid URL") would be much more helpful than a traceback *** File "Wapplication.py", line 45, in mainloop self.do1event(mask, wait) File "FrameWork.py", line 194, in do1event self.dispatch(event) File "FrameWork.py", line 227, in dispatch handler(event) File "FrameWork.py", line 289, in do_mouseDown handler(partcode, wid, event) File "Wapplication.py", line 203, in do_inMenuBar self.do_rawmenu(id, item, window, event) File "FrameWork.py", line 314, in do_rawmenu self.do_menu(id, item, window, event) File "FrameWork.py", line 321, in do_menu self.menubar.dispatch(id, item, window, event) File "Wapplication.py", line 445, in dispatch self.menus[id].dispatch(id, item, window, event) File "Wapplication.py", line 462, in dispatch W.CallbackCall(callback, 0, id, item, window, event) File "Wbase.py", line 684, in CallbackCall return callback() File "PackageManager.py", line 164, in domenu_openURL self.opendoc(url) File "PackageManager.py", line 138, in opendoc PackageBrowser(url) File "PackageManager.py", line 307, in __init__ messages = self.setuppimp(url) File "PackageManager.py", line 231, in setuppimp self.pimpdb.appendURL(url) File "pimp.py", line 259, in appendURL dict = plistlib.Plist.fromFile(fp) File "plistlib.py", line 211, in fromFile plist = p.parse(pathOrFile) File "plistlib.py", line 302, in parse parser.ParseFile(file) I then visited the site (as I should have done in the first place) and found two URLs: - "http://www.python.org/packman/version-0.3/darwin-6.6-Power_Macintosh.plist". which works but only has Numeric and the experimental version: "http://www.python.org/packman/version-0.3/exp-darwin-6.6-Power_Macintosh.plist" which is much more complete, though many of those packages are listed as 2.3b1, which means I may have shot myself in the foot for using them. Hmmm... I then checked "Show Hidden" and saw Tcl/TkAqua shown. I clicked that and got a message saying it could not automatically be installed. ***** Comment ***** It'd be nice if the manual install message had a button to go to the home page or at least explicitly suggested doing that. As it stands, the message is so cryptic that I doubt most naive users would have any idea what to do. Other package manager comments: - Much of the descriptive text (third column) is truncated, and making the window wider doesn't help because all three columns grow. Suggested fixes: - Move it to a separate panel. This allows lots of room for the description, so you could answer some obvious naive questions such as "do I need both source and binary of something, and if not, which should I choose?" and the comment for _tkinter can say that it's all a user needs to use Tkinter. - Fix resizing (a good idea in any case) so the left column never grows. The second column probably doesn't need to either--certainly not much. - Consider hiding source distributions by default. Naive users will only need the binary and I think it's confusing to have both visible. Anyway, I restored my Aqua Tk (since it was 8.4.3 and there's no 8.4.3 binary installer yet), then ran the package manager again (which did see it -- I checked Show Hidden and saw a yes in that row) and installed _tkinter 2.3b1 and it seems to work fine (though trying root=Tkinter.Tk() in the IDE sure gives it heartburn -- it ends up with two different sets of menus and you can only quit by using Force Quit!) Finally...I decided to see if I could get my old unix python working with X Tkinter and it is still just fine. In summary, I only had one serious problem and one serious question: - Problem: The package manager cannot find its database. - Question: how to set up a PYTHONPATH preference for the IDE? I looked through the online help for the IDE without any success. Aside from that, things seem just great! -- Russell From owen at astro.washington.edu Wed Jul 2 17:40:42 2003 From: owen at astro.washington.edu (Russell E Owen) Date: Wed Jul 2 19:40:46 2003 Subject: [Pythonmac-SIG] More on installer 2.3b2-1 Message-ID: I was getting some funny results that suggested my old version of MacPython (which I'd moved but not thrown out) might be getting into the act. So I tried again... Rebooted Threw out (and emptied trash): /Library/Frameworks/Python.framework /Applications/MacPython /Applications/Python 2.2 (old carbon/classic installation that I'd left in place last time) ~/Library/Preferences/pythonXXX /usr/local/bin/python* (except python2.2 meaning unix/X python 2.2.2) Ran the installer. It still thought it was an upgrade (much to my surprise) and still thought it would take 0 bytes. This time the Package Manager does not run at all when I double click it. It launches and quits with no explanation. The following is writen to Console.log: running sitecustomize.py Traceback (most recent call last): File "/Applications/MacPython-2.3/PackageManager.app/Contents/MacOS/PackageManager", line 17, in ? os.execve(executable, sys.argv, os.environ) OSError: [Errno 2] No such file or directory (the first line is expected, I print that myself in my sitecustomize.py). Running the IDE works fine (though my .MacOSX/environment.plist-defined PYTHONPATH is still not seen). Furthermore, I can select "Package Manager" from it and get the usual error message about the database not found. Oddly enough, though: - the separate icon for the package manager never shows up in the Dock - I can bring the useless package manager window to the front (the one that comes up after the cannot open... message, just like my last report) but the menus are for the IDE, so there's no "Open URL..." option available. In other words, I can see a useless package manager window but cannot connect to a usable database. In summary, things are worse this time. No package manager means no _tkinter and hence no Tkinter. -- Russell From rowen at cesmail.net Wed Jul 2 18:06:58 2003 From: rowen at cesmail.net (Russell E. Owen) Date: Wed Jul 2 20:07:03 2003 Subject: [Pythonmac-SIG] Re: More on installer 2.3b2-1 (followup with debug output) References: Message-ID: In article , Russell E Owen wrote: >... > This time the Package Manager does not run at all when I double click > it. It launches and quits with no explanation. The following is > writen to Console.log: > > running sitecustomize.py > Traceback (most recent call last): > File > "/Applications/MacPython-2.3/PackageManager.app/Contents/MacOS/PackageManager" > , > line 17, in ? > os.execve(executable, sys.argv, os.environ) > OSError: [Errno 2] No such file or directory > > (the first line is expected, I print that myself in my sitecustomize.py). >... > > In summary, things are worse this time. No package manager means no > _tkinter and hence no Tkinter. Comments: *** I didn't move anything before running into these problems (I see Jan de Leeuw is having the same problem and you asked him that). *** I added the requested print statements, specifically, I added: print "execdir = %r" % (execdir,) print "executable = %r" % (executable,) print "sys.argv = %r" % (sys.argv,) print "sys.prefix = %r" % (sys.prefix,) print "os.environ = %r" % (os.environ,) right before the last line in the file: os.execve(executable, sys.argv, os.environ) The resulting Console output is (again, the first line is expected): running sitecustomize.py execdir = '/Applications/MacPython-2.3/PackageManager.app/Contents/MacOS' executable = '/Applications/MacPython-2.3/PackageManager.app/Contents/MacOS/python.exe' sys.argv = ['/Applications/MacPython-2.3/PackageManager.app/Contents/MacOS/PackageManager', '/Applications/MacPython-2.3/PackageManager.app/Contents/Resources/PackageManager.py', '-psn_0_4980737'] sys.prefix = '/Library/Frameworks/Python.framework/Versions/2.3' os.environ = {'DYLD_LIBRARY_PATH': '/Applications/MacPython-2.3/PackageManager.app/Contents/Frameworks', 'SHELL': '/bin/tcsh', 'PYTHONSTARTUP': '/Users/rowen/pythonstartup.py', 'PYTHONPATH': '/Applications/MacPython-2.3/PackageManager.app/Contents/Resources', 'DYLD_FRAMEWORK_PATH': '/Applications/MacPython-2.3/PackageManager.app/Contents/Frameworks', 'SSH_AUTH_SOCK': '/tmp/501/nl.uu.phil.SSHAgent.socket', 'PYTHONEXECUTABLE': '/Applications/MacPython-2.3/PackageManager.app/Contents/MacOS/python.exe', 'DISPLAY': ':0.0', '__CF_USER_TEXT_ENCODING': '0x1F5:0:0', 'USER': 'rowen', 'PATH': '/usr/bin:/bin:/usr/sbin:/sbin:/Users/rowen', 'HOME': '/Users/rowen', 'PYTHONDOCS': '/Archives\xa5/UnixSoftware/Python Docs html-2.2.2/'} Traceback (most recent call last): File "/Applications/MacPython-2.3/PackageManager.app/Contents/MacOS/PackageManager", line 22, in ? os.execve(executable, sys.argv, os.environ) OSError: [Errno 2] No such file or directory Sorry about the long lines, but I turned off wrapping. If it's garbled, I saved it as a file and would be happy to email that. *** _tkinter was actually installed (I probably forgot to move Aqua Tcl/Tk out of /Library/Frameworks first). This is a relief since I need it and had no idea how to manually add it to the binary installation. I hope the debugging output is helpful. Let me know if you want any additional tests. Regards, -- Russell From Jack.Jansen at cwi.nl Thu Jul 3 03:24:22 2003 From: Jack.Jansen at cwi.nl (Jack Jansen) Date: Wed Jul 2 20:24:28 2003 Subject: [Pythonmac-SIG] For now, forget about installer 2.3b2-1 Message-ID: Folks, thanks for all the bug reports, it is *really* helpful. For now, please forget about the 2.3b2-1 installer, there seems to be something fishy with PackageManager and/or other applets (although no-one complained about problems with the IDE, except for the PYTHONPATH one). I'll look at all the issues tomorrow, hopefully fix them, and do the 2.3b2-2 installer. But first it's time for bed, -- - Jack Jansen http://www.cwi.nl/~jack - - If I can't dance I don't want to be part of your revolution -- Emma Goldman - From Jack.Jansen at cwi.nl Fri Jul 4 00:17:16 2003 From: Jack.Jansen at cwi.nl (Jack Jansen) Date: Thu Jul 3 17:17:25 2003 Subject: [Pythonmac-SIG] For your eyes only - MacPython 2.3b2 installer available In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On donderdag, jul 3, 2003, at 00:58 Europe/Amsterdam, Brian Lenihan wrote: > The previously reported PackageManager problem - executable = > os.path.join(execdir, "python.exe") This will be fixed with a new installer, later tonight. > import test.autotest results in a usage message being printed and a > traceback: > > option -p not recognized > Traceback (most recent call last): > File "", line 1, in ? > File > "/Library/Frameworks/Python.framework/Versions/2.3/lib/python2.3/test/ > autotest.py", line 6, in ? > regrtest.main() > File > "/Library/Frameworks/Python.framework/Versions/2.3/lib/python2.3/test/ > regrtest.py", line 150, in main > usage(2, msg) > File > "/Library/Frameworks/Python.framework/Versions/2.3/lib/python2.3/test/ > regrtest.py", line 114, in usage > sys.exit(code) > SystemExit: 2 Ah, you've been running test.autotest from the PythonIDE! It took me a while to figure this one out. The bug has nothing to do with running tests: the IDE has a dirty sys.argv. I've submitted bug 765603 about it. > Should the help docs be available in the IDE? Perhaps they could be a > package to keep the installer size down. The Help I want to have available always. It's only 300K (a couple of html pages and some images). The full documentation will be installable through the package manager. > The AquaTk package description does not make it clear to the user what > should be done other than providing a show homepage button. My > previously installed AquaTK works. Fixed. -- - Jack Jansen http://www.cwi.nl/~jack - - If I can't dance I don't want to be part of your revolution -- Emma Goldman - From Jack.Jansen at cwi.nl Fri Jul 4 00:39:23 2003 From: Jack.Jansen at cwi.nl (Jack Jansen) Date: Thu Jul 3 17:39:30 2003 Subject: [Pythonmac-SIG] installer bugs In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On donderdag, jul 3, 2003, at 01:11 Europe/Amsterdam, Russell E Owen wrote: > I then ran the installer. > - **** Minor Bug? ***** "Select a Destination" page of the installer > says "Installing this software requires 0 bytes of disk space". This > is after selecting a suitable disk (I only have one). Known bug, but I've filed 765608 anyway. At the very least the readme should explain this. > - The next page claims it'll be doing an upgrade. Interesting. I > wonder how it knew. As a long shot, I wonder if this is related to the > claim of 0 bytes (if it thought it was going to overwrite an existing > installation...). This is because there's still a receipt from a previous installation hiding somewhere. Don't worry about it. > I then ran the IDE. It seems to work, but it's not seeing PYTHONPATH > (which is defined in ~/.MacOSX/environment.plist so aqua applications > do normally see it). Strange, but perhaps this was true for 2.3b1 as > well...I'm not sure I ever tried. Good catch! There's a bug for this: 765615. > **** Bug ***** I then ran the package manager, to try to install > Tkinter. The IDE launched, but then I got an error message: > > Cannot open http://www.python.org/packman/ > version-0.3/darwin-6.3-Power_Macintosh.plist: HTTP > Error 404: Not Found This happened because you're running 10.2.3 or so, but you probably guessed as much already. But there's real bugs here too: > See MacPython Package Manager help page. > > The install manager then was visible, but with no entries. So I looked > at the help (the entry is actually called "Installing additional > Python packages with the Package Manager", so I confess it took me a > bit to find it). > > Anyway, it suggested I might find an alternative package manager at > "http://www.python.org/packman" so I naively tried entering exactly > that into the Open URL... dialog box and got a traceback: That's a bug. I've submitted 765621 for it. > ***** Comment ***** It'd be nice if the manual install message had a > button to go to the home page or at least explicitly suggested doing > that. As it stands, the message is so cryptic that I doubt most naive > users would have any idea what to do. There is a button:-) The text now refers to it. > Other package manager comments: > - Much of the descriptive text (third column) is truncated, and making > the window wider doesn't help because all three columns grow. > Suggested fixes: This is a problem inherent with the widget I use. I don't think it's easy to fix, and as the widget is doomed anyway and I hope to have a PyObjC-based Package Manager fairly soon I don't want to put too much work in it. > - Move it to a separate panel. This allows lots of room for the > description, so you could answer some obvious naive questions such as > "do I need both source and binary of something, and if not, which > should I choose?" and the comment for _tkinter can say that it's all a > user needs to use Tkinter. > - Fix resizing (a good idea in any case) so the left column never > grows. The second column probably doesn't need to either--certainly > not much. > - Consider hiding source distributions by default. Naive users will > only need the binary and I think it's confusing to have both visible. But then they wouldn't know about packages that are only available as source... OTOH: the scapegoat should create binary packages anyway of everything interesting... What do other people feel about this? Thanks for the great feedback! -- - Jack Jansen http://www.cwi.nl/~jack - - If I can't dance I don't want to be part of your revolution -- Emma Goldman - From Jack.Jansen at cwi.nl Fri Jul 4 00:44:07 2003 From: Jack.Jansen at cwi.nl (Jack Jansen) Date: Thu Jul 3 17:44:14 2003 Subject: [Pythonmac-SIG] For your eyes only - new OSX 2.3b2 installer Message-ID: <795FAC4D-AD9F-11D7-AC0A-000A27B19B96@cwi.nl> Folks, a new MacPython-2.3b2 installer for OSX is available. The only change is that Package Manager should now work, and that the underlying bug in bundlebuilder.py has been fixed. Please try and report your findings, so I can hopefully do a wider announcement tomorrow. And thank you all *very* much for the feedback you gave. Keep it coming and we're going to make this one hell of a release! -- - Jack Jansen http://www.cwi.nl/~jack - - If I can't dance I don't want to be part of your revolution -- Emma Goldman - From Jack.Jansen at cwi.nl Fri Jul 4 00:46:32 2003 From: Jack.Jansen at cwi.nl (Jack Jansen) Date: Thu Jul 3 17:46:47 2003 Subject: [Pythonmac-SIG] For your eyes only - new OSX 2.3b2 installer In-Reply-To: <795FAC4D-AD9F-11D7-AC0A-000A27B19B96@cwi.nl> Message-ID: On donderdag, jul 3, 2003, at 23:44 Europe/Amsterdam, Jack Jansen wrote: > Folks, > a new MacPython-2.3b2 installer for OSX is available. The only change > is that > Package Manager should now work, and that the underlying bug in > bundlebuilder.py > has been fixed. And as I thought later, you might be interested in the URL too:-). It is . -- - Jack Jansen http://www.cwi.nl/~jack - - If I can't dance I don't want to be part of your revolution -- Emma Goldman - From bob at redivi.com Thu Jul 3 18:48:56 2003 From: bob at redivi.com (Bob Ippolito) Date: Thu Jul 3 17:49:03 2003 Subject: [Pythonmac-SIG] Apple Events / iTunes Message-ID: <2597565C-ADA0-11D7-B0AE-000A95686CD8@redivi.com> I attempted using gensuitemodule.processfile_fromresource('/Applications/iTunes/Contents/ Resources/iTunes.rsrc') and it looks like it did _most_ of what I'd expect it to do, except it left out __init__.py. I'm not at all experienced with the python OSA support, so it'd take me a long time to figure out how to hack one together based upon what other packages look like. Is this a bug in processfile_fromresource, do I need to pass more options to it? Oh, also, does anyone remember how to turn on apple event debugging? I recall reading somewhere that you could have all apple events logged to the console, and I remember trying it.. but I don't remember where I read it or what it was. I think it was an environment variable? -bob From Jack.Jansen at cwi.nl Fri Jul 4 00:59:57 2003 From: Jack.Jansen at cwi.nl (Jack Jansen) Date: Thu Jul 3 18:00:08 2003 Subject: [Pythonmac-SIG] Apple Events / iTunes In-Reply-To: <2597565C-ADA0-11D7-B0AE-000A95686CD8@redivi.com> Message-ID: On donderdag, jul 3, 2003, at 23:48 Europe/Amsterdam, Bob Ippolito wrote: > I attempted using > gensuitemodule.processfile_fromresource('/Applications/iTunes/ > Contents/Resources/iTunes.rsrc') and it looks like it did _most_ of > what I'd expect it to do, except it left out __init__.py. I'm not at > all experienced with the python OSA support, so it'd take me a long > time to figure out how to hack one together based upon what other > packages look like. Is this a bug in processfile_fromresource, do I > need to pass more options to it? Here's a bit of text from the new embedding tutorial in PyObjC (which happens to use iTunes through OSA). Let me know if it doesn't work for you. I haven't a clue why __init__ would be left out... 15. Now we need to make the program talk to iTunes. The MacPython implementation to the Open Scripting Architecture requires an extra step when compared to AppleScript: you need to manually generate a Python package that wraps all the AppleScript terminology for an application. To make matters more complicated iTunes is one of those special cases where the standard way to generate this package (start the application, ask it for its terminology) does not work, so we have to actually look into the bowels of ``iTunes.app``. This leads to the following hefty command line which you should run in the ``SimpleComboBoxPlus`` directory:: % cd SimpleComboBoxPlus % setenv FWPYTHON /Library/Frameworks/Python.framework/Versions/Current % pythonw $FWPYTHON/lib/python2.3/plat-mac/gensuitemodule.py \ --output iTunes --resource --creator hook \ /Applications/iTunes.app/Contents/Resources/iTunes.rsrc This assumes MacPython is installed in the standard place and ``pythonw`` is on your $PATH. > Oh, also, does anyone remember how to turn on apple event debugging? > I recall reading somewhere that you could have all apple events logged > to the console, and I remember trying it.. but I don't remember where > I read it or what it was. I think it was an environment variable? If anyone tells you this I would be very interested in hearing it too. All my OS9 debug tools for OSA stopped working:-( -- - Jack Jansen http://www.cwi.nl/~jack - - If I can't dance I don't want to be part of your revolution -- Emma Goldman - From owen at astro.washington.edu Thu Jul 3 16:24:08 2003 From: owen at astro.washington.edu (Russell E Owen) Date: Thu Jul 3 18:24:14 2003 Subject: [Pythonmac-SIG] installer bugs Message-ID: >>**** Bug ***** I then ran the package manager, to try to install >>Tkinter. The IDE launched, but then I got an error message: >> >>Cannot open http://www.python.org/packman/ >>version-0.3/darwin-6.3-Power_Macintosh.plist: HTTP >>Error 404: Not Found > >This happened because you're running 10.2.3 or so, but you probably >guessed as much already. But there's real bugs here too: Actually, I had no clue at all what was going on. Now that you mention it, darwin-6.3 might be a clue for those who have any idea what verson of darwin they have, but until this moment it never even occurred to me that darwin would have a different version number than MacOS X itself. So as I say, I really had no idea what to make of the error, nor of the strange URLs for the plists. Sigh. I'll upgrade to 10.2.6 in a week or so. I've been waiting until my DiskWarrior upgrade shows up, and they are dreadfully backlogged (I ordered it over 5 weeks ago, at which time it was 3-4 weeks back-ordered). >>Other package manager comments: >>- Much of the descriptive text (third column) is truncated, and >>making the window wider doesn't help because all three columns >>grow. Suggested fixes: > >This is a problem inherent with the widget I use. I don't think it's >easy to fix, and as the widget is doomed anyway and I hope to have a >PyObjC-based Package Manager fairly soon I don't want to put too >much work in it. That is excellent news. I confess to some regrets that using a non-cross-platform GUI means the package manager will not be easily ported to other platforms, thus cutting down on prospective programmers to help out with it. But PyObjC does seem a very natural choice since it is native and presumably fairly lightweight. >>- Consider hiding source distributions by default. Naive users will >>only need the binary and I think it's confusing to have both >>visible. > >But then they wouldn't know about packages that are only available >as source... OTOH: the scapegoat should create binary packages >anyway of everything interesting... What do other people feel about >this? Oops, I was unclear in my writing. I meant that IF there are both binary and source versions then it would probably be less confusing to show only the recommended version by default. Otherwise naive users will wonder what to do (take one? take the other? take both?). Either that or make sure the descriptive strings have enough info to help naive users. (But the strings are already truncated for now, so if you do go that route then it'd be helpful to discuss it in the package manager help or in a README or something). >Thanks for the great feedback! Thank you so much for all your hard work on this. Despite a few problems as we've been discussing, 2.3b2 is great and the package manager looks very promising. My fairly complex Tkinter application seems to run perfectly under 2.3b2 (as installed by your soon-to-be-replaced 2.3b2-1 binary installer). -- Russell From brian_l at mac.com Thu Jul 3 16:39:29 2003 From: brian_l at mac.com (Brian Lenihan) Date: Thu Jul 3 18:39:36 2003 Subject: [Pythonmac-SIG] Apple Events / iTunes In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <35200226-ADA7-11D7-8332-000A956B6574@mac.com> On Thursday, July 3, 2003, at 2:59 PM, Jack Jansen wrote: > > On donderdag, jul 3, 2003, at 23:48 Europe/Amsterdam, Bob Ippolito > wrote: > > >> Oh, also, does anyone remember how to turn on apple event debugging? >> I recall reading somewhere that you could have all apple events >> logged to the console, and I remember trying it.. but I don't >> remember where I read it or what it was. I think it was an >> environment variable? > > If anyone tells you this I would be very interested in hearing it too. > All my > OS9 debug tools for OSA stopped working:-( > I meant to send this to the list, but sent it to Jack by mistake. There are three variables you can set: AEDebug 1 AEDebugSends 1 AEDebugReceives 1 You have to add these to ~/.MacOSX/Environment.plist, or use open 'app' in a terminal if you add them to your shell rc file From bob at redivi.com Thu Jul 3 19:47:06 2003 From: bob at redivi.com (Bob Ippolito) Date: Thu Jul 3 18:49:32 2003 Subject: [Pythonmac-SIG] For your eyes only - new OSX 2.3b2 installer In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <45D31D50-ADA8-11D7-B0AE-000A95686CD8@redivi.com> On Thursday, Jul 3, 2003, at 17:46 America/New_York, Jack Jansen wrote: > > On donderdag, jul 3, 2003, at 23:44 Europe/Amsterdam, Jack Jansen > wrote: > >> Folks, >> a new MacPython-2.3b2 installer for OSX is available. The only change >> is that >> Package Manager should now work, and that the underlying bug in >> bundlebuilder.py >> has been fixed. > > And as I thought later, you might be interested in the URL too:-). It > is > . Is there a howto somewhere for making PackageManager packages? I'm pretty good at making things compile on OS X, and I wouldn't mind helping out. -bob From owen at astro.washington.edu Thu Jul 3 17:10:45 2003 From: owen at astro.washington.edu (Russell E Owen) Date: Thu Jul 3 19:10:50 2003 Subject: [Pythonmac-SIG] Python 2.3b2-2 installer Message-ID: I deleted my old Python: - /Library/Frameworks/Python.framework - /Applications/MacPython - /usr/local/bin/python* (except python2.2) - ~/Library/Preferences/python... The installer ran perfectly. The Package Manager also now runs (yaay!) and the description panel is great (it is new, isn't it? if not, I'm embarrassed). Solves the problem of truncated descriptions. The remaining nits are: - It cannot not find a plist. Apparently this is because my MacOS X is too old (10.2.3) but the message really doesn't give any clue about that. - I can still get a traceback for invalid URLs in the package manager, but most URLs I tried give a nice error message instead of a traceback. One that reliably gives a traceback (appended) is "http://python.org/packman". I'll file a sourceforge bug report right now. - Descriptions of packages with more than one version should say something to help the user pick a version (e.g. binary? source?). - The business of listing different flavors of the same package in the main list still bothers me, though I think it's not worth trying to solve until after 2.3 release. I find it confusing (and think naive users are really going to be confused). Also when I installed Numeric binary I found that both binary and source now say "yes". Weird. Here is a suggestion for a modified interface: - List only the main package names in the main list, do not list different versions. - Have a separate "version" panel that shows which versions are available for the selected package. - The user can then pick which version to install - Hopefully you can also indicate which version is actually installed - Have a "recommended" version. This has two advantages: - you can highlight it in the version panel - you can HIDE the version panel for naive users and just automatically pick the recommended version In conclusion, things are good. My complex aqua Tcl/Tk application works great. -- Russell File "Wapplication.py", line 45, in mainloop self.do1event(mask, wait) File "FrameWork.py", line 194, in do1event self.dispatch(event) File "FrameWork.py", line 227, in dispatch handler(event) File "FrameWork.py", line 289, in do_mouseDown handler(partcode, wid, event) File "Wapplication.py", line 203, in do_inMenuBar self.do_rawmenu(id, item, window, event) File "FrameWork.py", line 314, in do_rawmenu self.do_menu(id, item, window, event) File "FrameWork.py", line 321, in do_menu self.menubar.dispatch(id, item, window, event) File "Wapplication.py", line 445, in dispatch self.menus[id].dispatch(id, item, window, event) File "Wapplication.py", line 462, in dispatch W.CallbackCall(callback, 0, id, item, window, event) File "Wbase.py", line 684, in CallbackCall return callback() File "PackageManager.py", line 176, in domenu_openURL self.opendoc(url) File "PackageManager.py", line 150, in opendoc PackageBrowser(url) File "PackageManager.py", line 328, in __init__ messages = self.setuppimp(url) File "PackageManager.py", line 251, in setuppimp self.pimpdb.appendURL(url) File "pimp.py", line 259, in appendURL dict = plistlib.Plist.fromFile(fp) File "plistlib.py", line 211, in fromFile plist = p.parse(pathOrFile) File "plistlib.py", line 302, in parse parser.ParseFile(file) From strauchdieb at gmx.de Sat Jul 5 01:36:11 2003 From: strauchdieb at gmx.de (Gabriel Birke) Date: Fri Jul 4 18:37:04 2003 Subject: [Pythonmac-SIG] How to activate color ncurses Message-ID: Hello! Has anyone got curses working with colors in the standard terminal? How do I activate the colors? I'm using Mac OS X 10.2.6 with Python 2.3a2 in /Library/Frameworks/Python.framework/Versions/2.3/lib/ I've tried setting TERM to another value and installing terminfo/termcap databases with color entries but the only result I got were garbled or "ugly" (= plain character) lines for borders. If you can't make it work in Terminal, maybe someone has a tip for xterm? Thnx, Gabriel -- "Windows Computers, manufactured by millions of companies, are by far the most popular, with about 70 million machines in use worldwide. Macintosh fans, on the other hand, may note that cockroaches are far more numerous than humans, and that numbers alone do not denote a higher life form." -Douglas Adams From moehl at akaflieg.extern.tu-berlin.de Sat Jul 5 17:59:28 2003 From: moehl at akaflieg.extern.tu-berlin.de (Torsten Sadowski) Date: Sat Jul 5 11:00:47 2003 Subject: [Pythonmac-SIG] For your eyes only - new OSX 2.3b2 installer Message-ID: The installer worked fine, except that it is possible to install to any disk, but python will only work when installed on the root disk. Apple really messed up with its domain system so you might have to say the installer only the start disk is a good disk. Torsten From moehl at akaflieg.extern.tu-berlin.de Sat Jul 5 20:54:26 2003 From: moehl at akaflieg.extern.tu-berlin.de (Torsten Sadowski) Date: Sat Jul 5 13:55:50 2003 Subject: [Pythonmac-SIG] Boa runs fine under OSX Message-ID: Hi, I#m happy to report, that Boa Constructor runs fine on MacOSX with Python2.3b2 and wxPython2.4.1.2. So far I had no crashes. Only some small problems remain: Window placement does not care for the menubar and the dock. If someone could tell me the right way to get those critters position, I would be grateful. Text editing is slow (slower than under Debian on a slower computer). The possible cause is the antialiesed text. Is there any possibility to turn this off and where can I change the default font. Torsten Sadowski From altis at semi-retired.com Sat Jul 5 14:16:49 2003 From: altis at semi-retired.com (Kevin Altis) Date: Sat Jul 5 16:10:54 2003 Subject: [Pythonmac-SIG] Boa runs fine under OSX In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > From: Torsten Sadowski > Sent: Saturday, July 05, 2003 10:54 AM > To: boa-constructor-users@lists.sourceforge.net > Cc: pythonmac-sig@python.org > Subject: [Pythonmac-SIG] Boa runs fine under OSX > > > Hi, > I#m happy to report, that Boa Constructor runs fine on MacOSX > with Python2.3b2 > and wxPython2.4.1.2. So far I had no crashes. Only some small problems > remain: > Window placement does not care for the menubar and the dock. If someone > could tell me the right way to get those critters position, I would be > grateful. > Text editing is slow (slower than under Debian on a slower computer). The > possible cause is the antialiesed text. Is there any possibility to turn > this off and where can I change the default font. > > Torsten Sadowski The speed problem is more likely due to the use of the Carbon API and WaitNextEvent. In order to make other apps more responsive and reduce the percent of CPU consumed when a Python/wxPython app is running, the default polling was reduced several versions ago in wxPython. One result is that event heavy operations like text editing that aren't handled entirely by a native widget can feel unresponsive. The only real solution is a version of wxWindows based on the Cocoa API. This is just my guess based on past messages. Robin Dunn may be able to provide a more complete explanation as well as provide some guess as to when and if a wxWindows based on Cocoa might appear. The anti-aliased text probably contributes a bit too. Almost all drawing operations on Mac OS X with wxWindows are slower compared to Windows or GTK assuming a roughly equivalent accelerated video card. A switch to a Cocoa-based API might help a lot with that problem. There is the setting in the system prefs for controlling the minimum point size of anti-aliased text system-wide. ka From dsposx at mac.com Sat Jul 5 15:01:15 2003 From: dsposx at mac.com (Donovan Preston) Date: Sat Jul 5 17:01:23 2003 Subject: [Pythonmac-SIG] Boa runs fine under OSX In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Saturday, July 5, 2003, at 1:16PM, Kevin Altis wrote: >> From: Torsten Sadowski >> >> Hi, >> I#m happy to report, that Boa Constructor runs fine on MacOSX >> with Python2.3b2 >> and wxPython2.4.1.2. So far I had no crashes. Only some small problems >> remain: >> Window placement does not care for the menubar and the dock. If >> someone >> could tell me the right way to get those critters position, I would be >> grateful. >> Text editing is slow (slower than under Debian on a slower computer). >> The >> possible cause is the antialiesed text. Is there any possibility to >> turn >> this off and where can I change the default font. >> >> Torsten Sadowski > > The speed problem is more likely due to the use of the Carbon API and > WaitNextEvent. In order to make other apps more responsive and reduce > the > percent of CPU consumed when a Python/wxPython app is running, the > default > polling was reduced several versions ago in wxPython. One result is > that > event heavy operations like text editing that aren't handled entirely > by a > native widget can feel unresponsive. The only real solution is a > version of > wxWindows based on the Cocoa API. Carbon apps can remove dependency on WaitNextEvent and it's hideously inefficient event loop style by switching over to the Carbon Events api. Carbon Events allows the developer to install callback functions and run a single mainloop function which will block efficiently, dispatching to the callbacks as needed, until the application quits. It's not necessary to make the great effort to switch over to the Cocoa API, which would be a ton of work. dp From Jack.Jansen at cwi.nl Sun Jul 6 23:41:46 2003 From: Jack.Jansen at cwi.nl (Jack Jansen) Date: Sun Jul 6 16:41:53 2003 Subject: [Pythonmac-SIG] For your eyes only - new OSX 2.3b2 installer In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <425A47B2-AFF2-11D7-96DF-000A27B19B96@cwi.nl> On zaterdag, jul 5, 2003, at 16:59 Europe/Amsterdam, Torsten Sadowski wrote: > The installer worked fine, except that it is possible to install to any > disk, but python will only work when installed on the root disk. Apple > really messed up with its domain system so you might have to say the > installer only the start disk is a good disk. Thanks for the report! Someone already noticed this last week, and there's a bug report for it, 764975. -- - Jack Jansen http://www.cwi.nl/~jack - - If I can't dance I don't want to be part of your revolution -- Emma Goldman - From bugbee at seanet.com Sun Jul 6 23:39:38 2003 From: bugbee at seanet.com (bugs) Date: Mon Jul 7 01:39:48 2003 Subject: [Pythonmac-SIG] clickable Python OSX apps and os.getcwd() Message-ID: <6613A378-B03D-11D7-A6EC-000393DB272E@seanet.com> Hi all, I am very gratified to see 2.3 with Tk and wx on the Mac. With one exception, a large number of Python programs written on Windows and Linux now have a chance of running on a Mac without programmer assistance. Kool!!! However, when you double click apps created by BuildApplet and Platypus, the initial working directory is / and not the dir from which it was launched. For programs developed under Linux and Windows, the initial working directory is often a starting point for navigating and locating things like parameter and data files. These programs will fail under OSX. Further, these programs are not likely to ever have any special OSX code nor will most Mac users have the knowledge or inclination to fix it. This is not a problem for apps that get launched from the commandline. They work just like their Linux and Windows counterparts. But apply some magic with BuildApplet and Platypus and the behavior is totally different. Not good! This behavior may be "standard" for OSX apps, but I'm not sure that makes it right. I'd like to see BuildApplet and Platypus set the current working directory to be the directory from which they are launched. What say you? Tx, Larry From oussoren at cistron.nl Mon Jul 7 11:02:30 2003 From: oussoren at cistron.nl (Ronald Oussoren) Date: Mon Jul 7 04:02:35 2003 Subject: [Pythonmac-SIG] ANN: PyObjC 1.0b1 Message-ID: <5B71E536-B051-11D7-991E-0003931CFE24@cistron.nl> PyObjC 1.0b1 is now available for download at http://pyobjc.sourceforge.net/ PyObjC is a bridge between Python and Objective-C. It allows full featured Cocoa applications to be written in pure Python. It is also easy to use other frameworks containing Objective-C class libraries from Python and to mix in Objective-C, C and C++ source. Python is a highly dynamic programming language with a shallow learning curve. It combines remarkable power with very clear syntax. The installer package includes a number of Project Builder templates for easily creating new Cocoa-Python projects, as well as support for syntax-coloring Python files in Project Builder. PyObjC also supports full introspection of Objective-C classes and direct invocation of Objective-C APIs from the interactive interpreter. PyObjC requires MacOS X 10.2 or later. PyObjC works both with the Apple provided Python installation in MacOS X 10.2 (and later) and with MacPython 2.3b1. Users of MacPython 2.3b1 can install PyObjC though the PackageManager application. PyObjC 1.0b1 includes numerous improvements over earlier versions, including: * Improved performance and stability * Better tutorials and examples * Initial support for MacOS X 10.1 * Support for the WebKit framework * Write plugin bundles in Python (requires Python 2.3b1) PyObjC is released with an open source license. From zen at shangri-la.dropbear.id.au Mon Jul 7 20:13:25 2003 From: zen at shangri-la.dropbear.id.au (Stuart Bishop) Date: Mon Jul 7 05:13:35 2003 Subject: [Pythonmac-SIG] MacPython 2.3b2 feedback from Mac distribution noobie Message-ID: <4375130D-B05B-11D7-9D87-000A95A06FC6@shangri-la.dropbear.id.au> I downloaded the MacPython 2.3b2 distribution and have been having a play. My first time with MacPython, as I've always just built my own interpreter from source or via fink. Installation ran happily. Nice big warning about what goes where and in particular /usr/local, which is good. Python IDE seems to run, but I'll stick with vim for the time being to avoid retraining my fingers. If from Terminal, I do 'File -> New Command...' and enter /usr/bin/python, I get a nice python prompt. If I enter /usr/local/bin/python, I get a bash prompt. Something very odd going on there. Double clicking on .py scripts fires up the IDE fine. Double clicking on .pyc scripts invokes Python Launcher, which appears to be a wrapper around the Terminal application. Jumping to the online help tells me about PythonLauncher options. I seem to have both a 'python' and a 'pythonw', which is odd, but the online help is again helpful and tells me the difference. :-) Python Launcher is running the script using 'pythonw foo.py && exit 1'. This means window does not close if the script returns with a non-zero exit code. It also indicates that the script is being run as a subprocess of a shell, rather than as just a process (such as done by the File -> New Command... menu item in Terminal, or with the element in a .term file). If Python Launcher continues to run scripts as a subprocess of a shell, it may be worth sticking a 'tput clear' before the 'pythonw foo.py' in the command string that Python Launcher runs to clear the screen. It might be worth sticking a shortcut to the MacPython help inside the MacPython application folder. I notice that .pyc files get a nicer icon, but .py files don't. Package manager looks interesting. PIL-1.1.4-source fails to build. No idea who is maintaining the package or who to tell. Or indeed where to go if I want to maintain some packages. Installed AquaTCLTk for the first time following the hints in that package. PIL-1.1.4 builds further, but still dies. Moved my /sw to a new location to see if things are being confused by the fink installed tcltk - no dice (unless fink installed tcltk left droppings elsewhere which I don't know about). Idle works fine with Aqua TCL/Tk installed after Python2.3. The package manager detects that it is installed too. The tkinter demos also run when I remember to use pythonw (would be nice to throw an exception and die rather than the obtuse behaviour that currently happens when running tk stuff with python instead of pythonw). Integration with the Mac's menu bar looks nifty and better than a lot of Java applications I've run :-) If anyone can be bothered, the tkinter demo's should probably be given the .pyw extension so Python Launcher works happily. I also notice that if I right click on a .py and choose 'open with', I have the Python IDE, Python Launcher and another application 'Launcher' that appears to be part of the Aqua TCL/Tk installation. This even seems to duplicate some of the Python Launcher functionality. This may cause trouble if someone has installed Aqua TCL/Tk before MacPython 2.3, unless the MacPython 2.3 installer takes over as the default launcher for .py files. Installed the Python documentation via Package manager. It didn't show up in help viewer, so I nuked ~/Library/Preferences/com.apple.*help* as instructed. This nuked most of my online help from the help centre, including MacPython's help, iTunes and pretty much everything except iPod, AirPort and the Developer's bookshelf. Thankfully, most apps seem to be adding themselves back in when they are launched. This was a bit of a scare :-) Now to see if I can install PyXML and Zope 3.... -- Stuart Bishop http://shangri-la.dropbear.id.au/ From mwh at python.net Mon Jul 7 14:12:28 2003 From: mwh at python.net (Michael Hudson) Date: Mon Jul 7 08:12:30 2003 Subject: [Pythonmac-SIG] How to activate color ncurses In-Reply-To: (Gabriel Birke's message of "Sat, 5 Jul 2003 00:36:11 +0200") References: Message-ID: <2md6gmo7rn.fsf@starship.python.net> Gabriel Birke writes: > Hello! > > Has anyone got curses working with colors in the standard terminal? > How do I activate the colors? > > I'm using Mac OS X 10.2.6 with Python 2.3a2 in > /Library/Frameworks/Python.framework/Versions/2.3/lib/ > > I've tried setting TERM to another value and installing > terminfo/termcap databases with color entries but the only result I > got were garbled or "ugly" (= plain character) lines for borders. > > If you can't make it work in Terminal, maybe someone has a tip for > xterm? You could try TERM=Apple_Terminal (but then don't log into any other machines). Or, bizarrely, you could try running under screen. (This whole area is a spectacular mess, and has been for about as long as I've been alive, AFAICT). Cheers, M. -- Slim Shady is fed up with your shit, and he's going to kill you. -- Eminem, "Public Service Announcement 2000" From rafferty29 at mchsi.com Mon Jul 7 08:13:47 2003 From: rafferty29 at mchsi.com (Rob Bedford) Date: Mon Jul 7 08:14:21 2003 Subject: [Pythonmac-SIG] clickable Python OSX apps and os.getcwd() In-Reply-To: <6613A378-B03D-11D7-A6EC-000393DB272E@seanet.com> Message-ID: <75E2CD66-B074-11D7-90F2-00039374C97A@mchsi.com> I believe the same occurs with a drag and drop onto the PythonLauncher. I had to add some code to make this work since I used an options file for GUI elements. Other than this and a need for pythonw the code work completely between Linux and Mac OS X (Windoz broke since the program needs os.execv and this is not supported) Rob On Monday, July 7, 2003, at 12:39 AM, bugs wrote: > Hi all, > > I am very gratified to see 2.3 with Tk and wx on the Mac. With one > exception, a large number of Python programs written on Windows and > Linux now have a chance of running on a Mac without programmer > assistance. Kool!!! > > However, when you double click apps created by BuildApplet and > Platypus, the initial working directory is / and not the dir from > which it was launched. For programs developed under Linux and > Windows, the initial working directory is often a starting point for > navigating and locating things like parameter and data files. These > programs will fail under OSX. > > Further, these programs are not likely to ever have any special OSX > code nor will most Mac users have the knowledge or inclination to fix > it. > > This is not a problem for apps that get launched from the commandline. > They work just like their Linux and Windows counterparts. But apply > some magic with BuildApplet and Platypus and the behavior is totally > different. Not good! This behavior may be "standard" for OSX apps, > but I'm not sure that makes it right. > > I'd like to see BuildApplet and Platypus set the current working > directory to be the directory from which they are launched. > > What say you? > > Tx, > > Larry > > > _______________________________________________ > Pythonmac-SIG maillist - Pythonmac-SIG@python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pythonmac-sig > From Chris.Barker at noaa.gov Mon Jul 7 11:12:13 2003 From: Chris.Barker at noaa.gov (Chris Barker) Date: Mon Jul 7 13:13:27 2003 Subject: [Pythonmac-SIG] clickable Python OSX apps and os.getcwd() References: <6613A378-B03D-11D7-A6EC-000393DB272E@seanet.com> Message-ID: <3F09A9ED.E29C658E@noaa.gov> bugs wrote: > However, when you double click apps created by BuildApplet and > Platypus, the initial working directory is / and not the dir from which > it was launched. What is the dir form which it was launched??? That is not a clearly defined concept. The Icon that is being clicked on could b anywhere: in the dock, an alias on the desktop, in /usr/local/bin, in /Applications. etc. > For programs developed under Linux and Windows, the > initial working directory is often a starting point for navigating and > locating things like parameter and data files. These programs will > fail under OSX. Actually, under Linux, when you start a program form the command line, there is a clearly defined working directory. When you start a program by clicking in a GUI (KDE, GNOME, whatever), $HOME is usually used as the working directory. > I'd like to see BuildApplet and Platypus set the current working > directory to be the directory from which they are launched. As this really isn't meaningful, I suggest $HOME. That would certainly be better that "/" I'm not sure what Windows does, I know it was a tradition in the past to use the directory that the executable resides in for various config files, etc, but now that windows is multi-user, is that still recommended? In any case, on *nix (and therefore OS-X) even that directory is not clearly defined. -Chris -- Christopher Barker, Ph.D. Oceanographer NOAA/OR&R/HAZMAT (206) 526-6959 voice 7600 Sand Point Way NE (206) 526-6329 fax Seattle, WA 98115 (206) 526-6317 main reception Chris.Barker@noaa.gov From randy.chapel at propel.com Mon Jul 7 13:18:46 2003 From: randy.chapel at propel.com (Randy Chapel) Date: Mon Jul 7 15:18:55 2003 Subject: [Pythonmac-SIG] McMillan Installer? Message-ID: Hi, Our company uses the McMillan Installer for the PC. We need to get it to work on the Mac for a project. From McMillan's site, "With some tweaking, the Linux build has been used on Mac OS X." Has anyone gotten it to work on the Mac OS X here on the list. Thank you for your help, Randy From just at letterror.com Mon Jul 7 22:27:07 2003 From: just at letterror.com (Just van Rossum) Date: Mon Jul 7 15:29:12 2003 Subject: [Pythonmac-SIG] McMillan Installer? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Randy Chapel wrote: > Our company uses the McMillan Installer for the PC. We need to get > it to work on the Mac for a project. From McMillan's site, "With > some tweaking, the Linux build has been used on Mac OS X." Has > anyone gotten it to work on the Mac OS X here on the list. I once got it to work. The only thing I remember tweaking was Installer's use of the ldd tool, which OSX lacks. Replacing it with "otool -L" worked for me. Maybe I did more, but it can't be much. Another option would be to use 2.3's bundlebuilder (Jack's 2.3b2 installer recommended), and turn your app into an OSX .app bundle (basically a folder containing everything needed). Just From bob at redivi.com Mon Jul 7 18:21:12 2003 From: bob at redivi.com (Bob Ippolito) Date: Mon Jul 7 17:21:22 2003 Subject: [Pythonmac-SIG] For your eyes only - new OSX 2.3b2 installer In-Reply-To: <795FAC4D-AD9F-11D7-AC0A-000A27B19B96@cwi.nl> Message-ID: On Thursday, Jul 3, 2003, at 17:44 America/New_York, Jack Jansen wrote: > Folks, > a new MacPython-2.3b2 installer for OSX is available. The only change > is that > Package Manager should now work, and that the underlying bug in > bundlebuilder.py > has been fixed. > > Please try and report your findings, so I can hopefully do a wider > announcement > tomorrow. > > And thank you all *very* much for the feedback you gave. Keep it > coming and we're > going to make this one hell of a release! Somewhere along the line, I think you may be including a Fink-linked readline with your distribution (and not in site-packages, either). That's bad, please don't do that :) bgenlocations.py should look in /Applications/MacPython-2.3/Extras/Tools/bgen/bgen/ and not /Users/jack/src/python/Tools/bgen/bgen/. This obviously isn't particularly relevant to most people, but I'm curious about playing with bgen, especially to potentially automate more of ctypes. How come python stuff ends up in /Applications/MacPython-2.3/ instead of /Library/Frameworks/Python.framework/ anyways? I'm not sure if you answered this when I asked last week, but do you have any PackageManager database maintainer documentation anywhere, or is it "read the source, luke" at this point? PackageManager should probably let you choose a tarball/zip/folder on disk (or drag + drop) and look for a setup.py that it would do the Usual Thing with. Perhaps also let you choose an arbitrary .py file and scan for 'distutils' -- but I've only seen a called-something-other-than-setup.py distutils installer in one package (it had multiple setup-prefixed installers that installed different related modules, and an annoying no-op setup.py.. so I would say this is a bug on his part). -bob From Chris.Barker at noaa.gov Mon Jul 7 16:11:59 2003 From: Chris.Barker at noaa.gov (Chris Barker) Date: Mon Jul 7 18:12:33 2003 Subject: [Pythonmac-SIG] Retroactively adding readline support to OS X Python 2.2 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <075D463E-B0C8-11D7-ADDA-000393A96660@noaa.gov> Hi all, I recently tried to help set up a friends box to use the Python shipped with jaguar, and get readline working with it. I did exactly what I did on my box, with no success. (where the heck did the Framework readline come form anyway? on my sytem it's there and complete, on his it didn't have any header files...) Anyway, I remembered this note from bob Ippolito: On Wednesday, June 25, 2003, at 06:30 PM, Bob Ippolito wrote: > Almost equivalent to b.bum's readline-0.0.0 hack, this one downloads > readline 4.3, compiles a static libreadline.a, and link the python 2.3 > readline.c against that. This avoids any > PrivateFrameworks/readline.framework version compatibility issues > because it's linked to a static version of readline, so it should be > safe to redistribute the resultant binary so long as you comply with > the relevant licenses. It should also be safe to redistribute this > "source" archive under the same license as Python. so I took that, and altered it to work with Python2.2. It works great, and you can get it here if you want: ftp://ftp.orr.noaa.gov/From_ORR/HMRD/FromChris/readlinePy2.2-0.0.1.tgz Here is the readme: A Python module that downloads and compiles a static readline 4.3 that can be used to add interactive readline support to the Python 2.2 installation that comes with OS-X Jaguar. It should work with any unix-y Python2.2.*, but I havn't tested it. Requires Developer Tools. readline.c is the verbatum, unmodified source file from Python 2.2.1s src/Modules directory. setup.py is just a quick hack to make it work. To install: python setup.py build sudo pythonsetup.py install This assumes "python" is the apple python, also I like to build as a regular user, and then install with sudo Note that the wierd extra "-arch i386" line in /usr/lib/python2.2/config/Makefile needs to be removed for this to work, as it does for using distutils for compileing any Python extension. (You can explicitly use of /usr/bin/python to prevent conflicts with a fink installed Python or any other python.) Originally by: b.bum bbum@codefab.com Repackaged for Python 2.3 and explicit compilation of readline 4.3 by: bob@redivi.com And then repackaged again for Jaguar Python 2.2 by: Chris.Barker@noaa.gov Enjoy! -Chris Christopher Barker, Ph.D. Oceanographer NOAA/OR&R/HAZMAT (206) 526-6959 voice 7600 Sand Point Way NE (206) 526-6329 fax Seattle, WA 98115 (206) 526-6317 main reception Chris.Barker@noaa.gov From zen at shangri-la.dropbear.id.au Tue Jul 8 12:00:08 2003 From: zen at shangri-la.dropbear.id.au (Stuart Bishop) Date: Mon Jul 7 21:00:23 2003 Subject: [Pythonmac-SIG] 2.3b2 and scripts Message-ID: <84FECCEE-B0DF-11D7-9D87-000A95A06FC6@shangri-la.dropbear.id.au> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Hi. Just installed a distutils package with scripts and found that they were being installed to /Library/Frameworks/Python.framework/Versions/2.3/bin/ If this stays this way, the documentation needs to mention that this directory needs to be added to the path (a symlink in /usr/local could make this a nicer path if anyone thinks that is important). If this directory is added to the path, is there any reason for the MacPython distribution to add anything into /usr/local at all? I'd vote for nothing in /usr/local, but that is only because I'm juggling multiple Python interpreters (which would be easy except that I forgot to request http://www.python.org/sf/677293 be backported into 2.2.3, making me reinstall Python 2.2 a seperate directory). I assume people have thought of having the installer or some post installation script modifying ~/.MacOSX/environment.plist or whatever the system wide equivalent is to setup paths automatically as per http://developer.apple.com/qa/qa2001/qa1067.html? - -- Stuart Bishop http://shangri-la.dropbear.id.au/ -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.1 (Darwin) iD8DBQE/Chedh8iUz1x5geARArqoAJ90kP0v4Rf5PAaatHHDCsiuLR9FBwCfY9tR cyBiBtYYXEIfhSIgyKjBNcQ= =u8bA -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From larry.bugbee at boeing.com Mon Jul 7 19:48:46 2003 From: larry.bugbee at boeing.com (Bugbee, Larry) Date: Mon Jul 7 21:48:54 2003 Subject: [Pythonmac-SIG] clickable Python OSX apps and os.getcwd() Message-ID: <8CFC81BC2CC2A74F88BAB7180F00B779020D5C93@xch-nw-29.nw.nos.boeing.com> > However, when you double click apps created by BuildApplet and > Platypus, the initial working directory is / and not the dir from which > it was launched. What is the dir form which it was launched??? That is not a clearly defined concept. The Icon that is being clicked on could b anywhere: in the dock, an alias on the desktop, in /usr/local/bin, in /Applications. etc. I agree this is a tough one and I'm not 100% sure what the answer should be. I'm frustrated that when I execute a short commandline script on any platform, I get one behavior, and when I run the same script by double clicking (after BuildApplet), I get another. If /aaa.app is looking for file /zzz.txt, why should it have to be written differently just because the user moved the whole dir to ? Subdirs would/should still be relative to the app (.app) and findable. Perhaps these apps should have awareness of just where they located by reading a sys.whereami parameter? I'm OK with that except for the fact pgms written under Linux or Windows won't be written that way. These pgms should run under OSX unaltered, even when BuildApplet might be used to make things easier for the Mac user. As for the Dock and aliases, I would treat them as aliases. ...but where they point *is* interesting, and my candidate for the working dir. Another alternative: Perhaps all this could be a specified option in BuildApplet? I dunno. I just want cross platform behavior to be as much the same as possible. Is there a way? --frustrated From just at letterror.com Tue Jul 8 10:39:07 2003 From: just at letterror.com (Just van Rossum) Date: Tue Jul 8 03:39:15 2003 Subject: [Pythonmac-SIG] clickable Python OSX apps and os.getcwd() In-Reply-To: <8CFC81BC2CC2A74F88BAB7180F00B779020D5C93@xch-nw-29.nw.nos.boeing.com> Message-ID: Bugbee, Larry wrote: > I agree this is a tough one and I'm not 100% sure what the answer > should be. I'm frustrated that when I execute a short commandline > script on any platform, I get one behavior, and when I run the same > script by double clicking (after BuildApplet), I get another. If > /aaa.app is looking for file /zzz.txt, why should > it have to be written differently just because the user moved the > whole dir to ? Subdirs would/should still be > relative to the app (.app) and findable. > > Perhaps these apps should have awareness of just where they located > by reading a sys.whereami parameter? I'm OK with that except for the > fact pgms written under Linux or Windows won't be written that way. > These pgms should run under OSX unaltered, even when BuildApplet > might be used to make things easier for the Mac user. > > As for the Dock and aliases, I would treat them as aliases. ...but > where they point *is* interesting, and my candidate for the working > dir. > > Another alternative: Perhaps all this could be a specified option in > BuildApplet? > > I dunno. I just want cross platform behavior to be as much the same > as possible. Is there a way? I think it's actually a reasonable feature request for BuildApplet (to set the working dir to the applet's containing folder). It might be an idea to couple this behavior to the argv emulation code (which translates dropped items to argv items). A patch would be appreciated. Just From randy.chapel at propel.com Tue Jul 8 10:10:53 2003 From: randy.chapel at propel.com (Randy Chapel) Date: Tue Jul 8 12:11:08 2003 Subject: [Pythonmac-SIG] PythonMac bundle verses daemon design choice Message-ID: Hi all, I am moving our PC code over to the Mac. Currently, the PC version only shows up in the process manager and not under the applications list in the task window. The PC version also has a UI, but it only shows up in the system tray. What I would like to do, is have the Mac UI show up in the Menu bar at the top right of the screen like the sound, battery or Apple Remote Access UI does. However, that code is in Cocoa. The main part of the program on the PC has several files which a startup script accesses. The program uses Gordon McMillan's software to create one .exe I am told that I can use Jack Jansen's code and create a bundle on the Mac. Either way, I will obfuscate the .zip While creating a bundle would be the easy thing to do, what I don't want is the user to have access to the python side of the program in the dock. When I run the menu statusbar, it currently does not show up in the dock. Like on the PC, I only want them to see the UI side and not get at the guts of the program (unless you know what you are doing). Also, I am not really keen on mixing a Cocoa and Python interpret wrapper together. So I have thought of creating a daemon Python interpret wrapper to run our program. Since this is not a bundle, I would have the obfuscated .zip code located at /Library/Application Support/Propel/{}.zip So now that I have explained this, I am sure that someone has come across this design problem before and came up with a cool answer. Is there anyone else out there willing to put in their 2 cents? Thank you in advance, Randy From lsloan at umich.edu Tue Jul 8 13:47:30 2003 From: lsloan at umich.edu (Lance E Sloan) Date: Tue Jul 8 12:47:34 2003 Subject: [Pythonmac-SIG] Re: For your eyes only - MacPython 2.3b2 installer available In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7047791.1057668450@141-213-238-90.umnet.umich.edu> [Apologies if this is a duplicate message, my mail program crashed the first time I sent it and I don't know if it was really sent.] --On Wednesday, July 2, 2003 23:54 +0200 Jack Jansen wrote: > You're right about the > symlinks in /usr/local/bin (python, python2.3, pythonw and pythonw2.3) > but I tend to forget about these myself:-) Sorry if I'm behind the times, but this reminds me of a change I'd like to see in how MacPython's installed. I'd like all the stuff normally installed in /usr/local to be installed in /usr/local/python-2.3. And /usr/local/bin/python would be a symlink to /usr/local/python-2.3/bin/python. I like to keep all the parts of a package together in one place. This is my first time installing MacPython. I will probably move the files and make the symlinks manually. BTW, I'm really happy that this version of MacPython has better GUI and commandline support together. -- Lance E Sloan U-M WATS: Web Applications, Technologies, and Solutions Full-service web and database design, development, and hosting. http://websvcs.itd.umich.edu/ - "Putting U on the Web" From Chris.Barker at noaa.gov Tue Jul 8 11:21:41 2003 From: Chris.Barker at noaa.gov (Chris Barker) Date: Tue Jul 8 13:23:08 2003 Subject: [Pythonmac-SIG] clickable Python OSX apps and os.getcwd() References: Message-ID: <3F0AFDA5.6980375F@noaa.gov> Just van Rossum wrote: > Bugbee, Larry wrote: > > Perhaps these apps should have awareness of just where they located > > by reading a sys.whereami parameter? There are two problems with this: 1) "whereami" is NOT a clearly defined thing on *nix, what with symlinks, multiple hard links, multiple file systems, etc. Frankly, I don't quite get the details, but this was a long discussion on the wxPython mailing list, and no one could offer a foolproof solution. THe result is that many complex *nix applications are started with a script that sets a few environment variables defining config directories and the like. 2) As a rule, applications are (and should be) installed in places that can not be written to by regular users, and config and data files should be user-specific, so that one user does not mess with another user's configuration. > > I'm OK with that except for the > > fact pgms written under Linux or Windows won't be written that way. Programs written under Linux and Windows already have to be different than each other in that regard. Many windows programs use the directory that the app is in for configuration and stuff. Now that Windows is multi-user, it really shouldn't be done that way, but old habits die hard, and Windows is not that strict about who can write what where. > > These pgms should run under OSX unaltered, even when BuildApplet > > might be used to make things easier for the Mac user. I'd like that, but it's probably not possible, unless a module that is designed to hide these kinds of things is written/used. wxPython has a config file abstraction, for instance. It would be a nice addition to the standard library if you ask me. > > As for the Dock and aliases, I would treat them as aliases. ...but > > where they point *is* interesting, and my candidate for the working > > dir. I'm not sure it's that clear that you want to use where they point. > > Another alternative: Perhaps all this could be a specified option in > > BuildApplet? That is a good idea. I personally think $HOME is the only reasonable option, but obviously others disagree. > > I dunno. I just want cross platform behavior to be as much the same > > as possible. Is there a way? Only with an abstraction layer. > I think it's actually a reasonable feature request for BuildApplet (to > set the working dir to the applet's containing folder). Yuck, yuck yuck. See above. I'm still a little confused about whether we are talking about config files and the like, or some other use for the "working directory", but the arguments are similar. The source of the problem is that the idea of a "working directory" doesn't really make sense in a GUI environment. It is a very clear concept in a CLI. That's why the old MacOS didn't really have such a thing. On Windows and *nix, there is a system defined working directory, but the concept kind of breaks down with GUI launched programs. I know the default on Linux GUIs is to set the working directory to $HOME which makes the most sense to me. I see 4 distinct uses for some kind of directory the app knows about: 1) A place to store data files, etc that the app needs. These are not changed by or even necessarily known about by the user. In traditional *nix, these would either be in /usr/local/mayapp/, /usr/local/var/myapp or /usr/local/lib/myapp. It's a bit of a mess. ( NOTE: OS-vendor supplied appps use /usr rather than /usr/local ). I guess on OS-X this would be in /Applications/myapp. I believe windows puts this stuff in C:\Program Files\myapp 2) A place to put system global config files. These would be edited by the system administrator, by hand, or with a GUI or whatever. These traditionally go in /usr/local/etc/ or one of the "myapp" directories above. On OS-X, probably also /Applications/myapp. On Windows this stuff goes in the registry (arrgg!!!) 3) A place for user-specific config files. These traditionally go in ~/.myapp. On OS-X., probably ~/Library/Application Support. I have no idea where these go in Windows 4) A place for the program to read and write it's working files. This is selected by the user, in their home directory somewhere, and the default is the working directory, which is the directory the app was started from at the CLI, or ~/. On OS-X, I think ~/ is appropriate for a default. On Windows this used to be c:\, now I think it tends to be something like c:\Documents and Settings\username\My Documents. I don't have Windows booted at the moment, sorry. On that last one, while the old MacOS didn't really have a working directory, most apps did start you out in the directory the app itself lived in when you got a file:save dialog box. This resulted in a whole lot of people storing their docs in with the app, which, while possible on a single user system was always a Bad Idea (tm). OS-X is trying to get away from that.... Anyway, I think the only way to have this work across platforms is to use an abstraction layer, which could be a pretty simple roll-your-own class for a simple app, that simply provides access to the above 4 directories. -Chris -- Christopher Barker, Ph.D. Oceanographer NOAA/OR&R/HAZMAT (206) 526-6959 voice 7600 Sand Point Way NE (206) 526-6329 fax Seattle, WA 98115 (206) 526-6317 main reception Chris.Barker@noaa.gov From oussoren at cistron.nl Tue Jul 8 20:52:30 2003 From: oussoren at cistron.nl (Ronald Oussoren) Date: Tue Jul 8 13:52:34 2003 Subject: [Pythonmac-SIG] PythonMac bundle verses daemon design choice In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tuesday, 8 July, 2003, at 18:10, Randy Chapel wrote: > Also, I am not really > keen on mixing a Cocoa and Python interpret wrapper together. You could use PyObjC to write the Cocoa portion of the application, see http://pyobjc.sf.net/. I haven't tried to write system menu items in Python yet, so I don't know if this is possible to do using the Apple provided python in MacOS X 10.2. Using MacPython 2.3, which includes a shared library, almost anything is possible including plugin bundles (such as a System Preferences panel). Ronald From mwh at python.net Wed Jul 9 12:30:17 2003 From: mwh at python.net (Michael Hudson) Date: Wed Jul 9 06:30:20 2003 Subject: [Pythonmac-SIG] Re: For your eyes only - MacPython 2.3b2 installer available In-Reply-To: <7047791.1057668450@141-213-238-90.umnet.umich.edu> (Lance E Sloan's message of "Tue, 08 Jul 2003 12:47:30 -0400") References: <7047791.1057668450@141-213-238-90.umnet.umich.edu> Message-ID: <2msmpgm1qe.fsf@starship.python.net> Lance E Sloan writes: > Sorry if I'm behind the times, but this reminds me of a change I'd > like to see in how MacPython's installed. I'd like all the stuff > normally installed in /usr/local to be installed in > /usr/local/python-2.3. And /usr/local/bin/python would be a symlink > to /usr/local/python-2.3/bin/python. I like to keep all the parts of > a package together in one place. This change doesn't really have anything to do with the Mac, and I expect arguing for all Unix installs to go this way would be fruitless. Don't let that stop you, though :-) It's not that hard to yourself, just ./configure --prefix=/usr/local/python-2.3 && make && make install for f in /usr/local/python-2.3/bin/*; do ln -s $f /usr/local/bin; done > > This is my first time installing MacPython. I will probably move the > files and make the symlinks manually. I'd recommend doing it as above; moving the files after install might (and only might, not sure) confuse the distutils. Cheers, M. -- In the 1950s and 60s there was a regular brain drain of young Australians from the cities to London, but it was because of money, culture and opportunity, not spiders. -- Al Grant, ucam.chat, from Owen Dunn's review of the year From marius at e.co.za Wed Jul 9 10:53:46 2003 From: marius at e.co.za (Marius Eugene van Wyk) Date: Wed Jul 9 11:47:33 2003 Subject: [Pythonmac-SIG] Re: [Boa Constr] Boa runs fine under OSX In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <77D7DE61-B1E2-11D7-9580-000A958FBAFE@e.co.za> On Saturday, Jul 5, 2003, at 19:54 Africa/Johannesburg, Torsten Sadowski wrote: > Hi, > I#m happy to report, that Boa Constructor runs fine on MacOSX with > Python2.3b2 > and wxPython2.4.1.2. So far I had no crashes. Only some small problems > remain: Just want to make sure: Are we talking the Fink packages here? I assume not... On first start-up the OS X menu bar obscures part of the top palette. You get it back by minimising and restoring the edit/explorer window. But then you first have to manually move the top palette around before doing a save of window positions, otherwise the problem will persist. We are working on a standard mac prefs file that will contain some sane defaults. Me. > Window placement does not care for the menubar and the dock. If someone > could tell me the right way to get those critters position, I would be > grateful. > Text editing is slow (slower than under Debian on a slower computer). > The > possible cause is the antialiesed text. Is there any possibility to > turn > this off and where can I change the default font. > > Torsten Sadowski > > > > ------------------------------------------------------- > This SF.Net email sponsored by: Free pre-built ASP.NET sites including > Data Reports, E-commerce, Portals, and Forums are available now. > Download today and enter to win an XBOX or Visual Studio .NET. > http://aspnet.click-url.com/go/psa00100006ave/direct;at.asp_061203_01/ > 01 > _______________________________________________ > Boa-constructor-users mailing list > Boa-constructor-users@lists.sourceforge.net > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/boa-constructor-users > > -- Director Tangible Business Software From TK at EdgertonFoundation.org Wed Jul 9 13:45:45 2003 From: TK at EdgertonFoundation.org (Todd Koym) Date: Wed Jul 9 12:44:32 2003 Subject: [Pythonmac-SIG] Mac equivalent of winsound Message-ID: What is the easiest way to play a short sound file (aiff or wav) in MacPython? I have an application that requires short sound notifications. Winsound serves this purpose quite well for Windows, but I'm having trouble identifying the equivalent module/package to use for the Mac. I'm running on OS X (Jaguar), but I have to use the Carbon version of MacPython (the Python interpreter is embedded in a Carbon app). The playing of the sound file must not open its own user interface/window. PyGame seems like a lot of work/overkill for my purpose Snack requires Tkinter - which doesn't run under Carbon The snippet below (using Carbon.Res and Carbon.Snd) works, but I need to play sound files, not just snd resources. It seems like I need to use SndStartFilePlay (from Carbon's Sound Manager), but I can't seem to find it. # Show off SndPlay (and some resource manager functions). # Get a list of all 'snd ' resources in the system and play them all. from Carbon.Res import * from Carbon.Snd import * ch = SndNewChannel(0, 0, None) print "Channel:", ch type = 'snd ' for i in range(CountResources(type)): r = GetIndResource(type, i+1) print r.GetResInfo(), r.size if r.GetResInfo()[0] == 1: print "Skipping simple beep" continue ch.SndPlay(r, 0) From lsloan at umich.edu Wed Jul 9 14:02:33 2003 From: lsloan at umich.edu (Lance E Sloan) Date: Wed Jul 9 13:02:43 2003 Subject: [Pythonmac-SIG] Re: For your eyes only - MacPython 2.3b2 installer available In-Reply-To: <2msmpgm1qe.fsf@starship.python.net> References: <7047791.1057668450@141-213-238-90.umnet.umich.edu> <2msmpgm1qe.fsf@starship.python.net> Message-ID: <8786817.1057755753@141-213-238-90.umnet.umich.edu> --On Wednesday, July 9, 2003 12:00 -0400 pythonmac-sig-request@python.org wrote: > It's not that hard to yourself, just > ./configure --prefix=/usr/local/python-2.3 && make && make install > for f in /usr/local/python-2.3/bin/*; do ln -s $f /usr/local/bin; done Sure, if I were installing Python from source, that's what I'd do. But I was trying the MacPython installer that Jack had announced, and I don't think that includes a "configure" script. That's why I responded to his "MacPython 2.3b2 installer" message. Normally I would install from source, but the last couple of times I did that and tried to get Tkinter and PyObjC support working, I wasn't having as much success as others on this list have had. So I decided to give the binary installer a shot. -- Lance E Sloan U-M WATS: Web Applications, Technologies, and Solutions Full-service web and database design, development, and hosting. http://websvcs.itd.umich.edu/ - "Putting U on the Web" From fauchoNOSPAM at myrealbox.com Wed Jul 9 13:44:17 2003 From: fauchoNOSPAM at myrealbox.com (fauchoNOSPAM@myrealbox.com) Date: Wed Jul 9 14:04:03 2003 Subject: [Pythonmac-SIG] apple event debugging Message-ID: >>Oh, also, does anyone remember how to turn on apple event debugging? >>I recall reading somewhere that you could have all apple events logged >>to the console, and I remember trying it.. but I don't remember where >>I read it or what it was. I think it was an environment variable? > >If anyone tells you this I would be very interested in hearing it too. >All my OS9 debug tools for OSA stopped working:-( there are some environmental variables that can be set: http://www.macosxhints.com/article.php?story=20030318214645101 From randy.chapel at propel.com Wed Jul 9 14:23:13 2003 From: randy.chapel at propel.com (Randy Chapel) Date: Wed Jul 9 16:23:22 2003 Subject: [Pythonmac-SIG] python interpreter library? Message-ID: Hi, Has anyone used Ronald Oussoren's PyObjC project? Looked into what he did with the Cocoa-Python Application, but I don't want to use the python interpreter that comes with OS X via execve. What I need to do is use a shared library or internalize the python interpreter in my program. Has anyone extended Ronald's project to use a shared library or internalize the python interpreter? Better yet, has anyone created a shared python interpreter library? Randy From oussoren at cistron.nl Wed Jul 9 23:30:56 2003 From: oussoren at cistron.nl (Ronald Oussoren) Date: Wed Jul 9 16:32:07 2003 Subject: [Pythonmac-SIG] python interpreter library? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3EB2FC9E-B24C-11D7-82EE-0003931CFE24@cistron.nl> On Wednesday, 9 July, 2003, at 22:23, Randy Chapel wrote: > > Better yet, has anyone created a shared python interpreter library? The binary MacPython distribution includes a Python framework, which is a shared library with some extra packaging stuff (including the entire python library). I think it's possible to coax PB into including the framework in you application bundle (instead of using the system-installed framework). Ronald P.S. It's "Ronald Oussorens PyObjC" as much as its "Guido van Rossum's Python", I'm not the only one working on this project ;-) From just at letterror.com Wed Jul 9 23:30:21 2003 From: just at letterror.com (Just van Rossum) Date: Wed Jul 9 16:32:13 2003 Subject: [Pythonmac-SIG] python interpreter library? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Randy Chapel wrote: > Has anyone used Ronald Oussoren's PyObjC project? Certainly. > Looked into what he did with the Cocoa-Python Application, but I > don't want to use the python interpreter that comes with OS X via > execve. What I need to do is use a shared library or internalize > the python interpreter in my program. Has anyone extended Ronald's > project to use a shared library or internalize the python > interpreter? > > Better yet, has anyone created a shared python interpreter library? That's exactly what Python.framework is. Just From israel at sandlotgames.com Wed Jul 9 17:46:47 2003 From: israel at sandlotgames.com (Israel C. Evans) Date: Wed Jul 9 19:47:14 2003 Subject: [Pythonmac-SIG] troubles with tcl... Message-ID: <9ABF6580-B267-11D7-B963-000393A47FF2@sandlotgames.com> Hello there good people. I'm currently playing around with PAWS v1.4 and when I start it (doesn't matter if it's command line or doubleclick), I get something like the following. ''' Unhandled exception in thread started by Traceback (most recent call last): File "/Library/Frameworks/Python.framework/Versions/2.3/lib/python2.3/lib- tk/Tkinter.py", line 963, in mainloop self.tk.mainloop(n) RuntimeError: Calling Tcl from different appartment ''' Does anyone have any ideas about how Tcl is behaving here? It's a different system than I'm used to and it calls for me to start the program, which apparently has some tkinter based gui, by typing at the prompt. iz% python play Cloak Is this normal to call up two files after python? ~Israel~ From Chris.Barker at noaa.gov Thu Jul 10 13:59:03 2003 From: Chris.Barker at noaa.gov (Chris Barker) Date: Thu Jul 10 15:59:39 2003 Subject: [Pythonmac-SIG] Re: For your eyes only - MacPython 2.3b2 installer available In-Reply-To: <7047791.1057668450@141-213-238-90.umnet.umich.edu> Message-ID: On Tuesday, July 8, 2003, at 09:47 AM, Lance E Sloan wrote: > Sorry if I'm behind the times, but this reminds me of a change I'd > like to see in how MacPython's installed. I'd like all the stuff > normally installed in /usr/local to be installed in > /usr/local/python-2.3. And /usr/local/bin/python would be a symlink > to /usr/local/python-2.3/bin/python. I like to keep all the parts of > a package together in one place. I'm confused. The only stuff installed in /usr/local/bin is a bunch of symlinks, ultimately to: /Library/Frameworks/Python.framework/Versions/2.3/bin/ Which is the OS-X version of /usr/lib. This seems totally reasonable to me, or would you really put sym links to symlinks to symlinks? The exception is pythonw2.3, which is a one line script, so I have no problem with it living in /usr/local/bin, though I suppose that could be a symlink also. -Chris Christopher Barker, Ph.D. Oceanographer NOAA/OR&R/HAZMAT (206) 526-6959 voice 7600 Sand Point Way NE (206) 526-6329 fax Seattle, WA 98115 (206) 526-6317 main reception Chris.Barker@noaa.gov From paul at fxtech.com Thu Jul 10 16:08:30 2003 From: paul at fxtech.com (Paul Miller) Date: Thu Jul 10 16:08:44 2003 Subject: [Pythonmac-SIG] Looking for Ming Python as Carbon Python extension In-Reply-To: <3EB2FC9E-B24C-11D7-82EE-0003931CFE24@cistron.nl> References: Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.2.20030710150503.0387a2d8@cedar.he.net> Hi folks - I'm trying to get a working copy of the Ming extension for Python built as a Carbon extension shared lib. I've gotten the latest code and built it on Windows, but am having trouble building it on Mac (with CW8). It keeps looking for which apparently I do not have. Note that I can use Python in my own apps with no problem - it just seems to be something with building this extension module. I have the Python 2.2.2 src distribution for Mac (which apparently doesn't include GUSI2 - perhaps that is my problem). If someone has ming 0.2a built as a module, I'd sure love to get it from you - otherwise, ideas for getting it to compile? Cheers! -Paul -- Paul Miller | paul@fxtech.com | Got Tivo? From Chris.Barker at noaa.gov Thu Jul 10 15:47:46 2003 From: Chris.Barker at noaa.gov (Chris Barker) Date: Thu Jul 10 17:48:19 2003 Subject: [Pythonmac-SIG] egenixBase (mxDateTime) and MacPython 2.3b2 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <24841956-B320-11D7-B364-000393A96660@noaa.gov> Hi all, Has anyone gotten egenixBase to install with 2.3b2? python setup.py install worked just great with jaguar Python2.2, but it's not working with 2.3b2. I'm getting a ImportError: No module named mxDateTime error, even though mxDateTime.so is sitting right there, where is should be. Is this a *.so vs. *.dylib problem maybe??? I don't even know where to start with this, so any advice would be great. I got readline and Gnuplot.py to work, but I can't get package manager to do anything for me :-( -Chris Christopher Barker, Ph.D. Oceanographer NOAA/OR&R/HAZMAT (206) 526-6959 voice 7600 Sand Point Way NE (206) 526-6329 fax Seattle, WA 98115 (206) 526-6317 main reception Chris.Barker@noaa.gov From Chris.Barker at noaa.gov Thu Jul 10 17:59:23 2003 From: Chris.Barker at noaa.gov (Chris Barker) Date: Thu Jul 10 20:01:45 2003 Subject: [Pythonmac-SIG] egenixBase (mxDateTime) and MacPython 2.3b2 References: <24841956-B320-11D7-B364-000393A96660@noaa.gov> <1F31A368-B32A-11D7-9080-000A956B6574@mac.com> Message-ID: <3F0DFDDB.189AA8A4@noaa.gov> Brian Lenihan wrote: > This works for me: > from mx import DateTime What version of Python? how did you install it? Where is DateTime.so ? is there a DateTime.so? (Mine is in: /Library/Frameworks/Python.framework/Versions/2.3/lib/site-packages/mx/DateTime/mxDateTime/mxDateTIme.so whew!) -Chris -- Christopher Barker, Ph.D. Oceanographer NOAA/OR&R/HAZMAT (206) 526-6959 voice 7600 Sand Point Way NE (206) 526-6329 fax Seattle, WA 98115 (206) 526-6317 main reception Chris.Barker@noaa.gov From brian_l at mac.com Thu Jul 10 19:43:58 2003 From: brian_l at mac.com (Brian Lenihan) Date: Thu Jul 10 21:45:00 2003 Subject: [Pythonmac-SIG] egenixBase (mxDateTime) and MacPython 2.3b2 In-Reply-To: <3F0DFDDB.189AA8A4@noaa.gov> References: <24841956-B320-11D7-B364-000393A96660@noaa.gov> <1F31A368-B32A-11D7-9080-000A956B6574@mac.com> <3F0DFDDB.189AA8A4@noaa.gov> Message-ID: <237C4D03-B341-11D7-9664-000A956B6574@mac.com> On Thursday, July 10, 2003, at 4:59 PM, Chris Barker wrote: > Brian Lenihan wrote: > >> This works for me: >> from mx import DateTime > > What version of Python? how did you install it? > > Where is DateTime.so ? is there a DateTime.so? > (Mine is in: > /Library/Frameworks/Python.framework/Versions/2.3/lib/site-packages/ > mx/DateTime/mxDateTime/mxDateTIme.so > whew!) DateTime.so is in the same place: /Library/Frameworks/Python.framework/Versions/2.3/lib/python2.3/site- packages/mx/DateTime/mxDateTime I'm currently using 2.3.b2+ from cvs, but this also worked with the 2.3b2 installer. I did the normal python setup.py install of egenics-mx-base-2.0.4 From frans at xsupport.nl Fri Jul 11 09:03:03 2003 From: frans at xsupport.nl (Frans H. Schippers) Date: Fri Jul 11 02:03:11 2003 Subject: [Pythonmac-SIG] egenixBase (mxDateTime) and MacPython 2.3b2 Message-ID: >Brian Lenihan wrote: > >> This works for me: >> from mx import DateTime > >What version of Python? how did you install it? > >Where is DateTime.so ? is there a DateTime.so? >(Mine is in: >/Library/Frameworks/Python.framework/Versions/2.3/lib/site-packages/mx/DateTime/mxDateTime/mxDateTIme.so >whew!) > >-Chris Brian Check if the mode of mxDateTIme.so is -rwxr-xr-x, it noticed that is must be reable. It was the reason why an other .so did work for me. Frans -- X|support bv mailto:frans.schippers@xsupport.nl Grote Beer 189 http://www.xsupport.nl 1188 AZ Amstelveen tel: +31 20 4411 258 ING 6533.74.208 Amstelveen fax: +31 23 5424 282 mbl: +31 653 650 806 KvK 33301359 Amstelveen btw: NL-807284324B01 From Frans.Schippers at xsupport.nl Fri Jul 11 08:54:52 2003 From: Frans.Schippers at xsupport.nl (Frans H. Schippers) Date: Fri Jul 11 08:12:12 2003 Subject: [Pythonmac-SIG] egenixBase (mxDateTime) and MacPython 2.3b2 In-Reply-To: <3F0DFDDB.189AA8A4@noaa.gov> References: <24841956-B320-11D7-B364-000393A96660@noaa.gov> <1F31A368-B32A-11D7-9080-000A956B6574@mac.com> <3F0DFDDB.189AA8A4@noaa.gov> Message-ID: >Brian Lenihan wrote: > >> This works for me: >> from mx import DateTime > >What version of Python? how did you install it? > >Where is DateTime.so ? is there a DateTime.so? >(Mine is in: >/Library/Frameworks/Python.framework/Versions/2.3/lib/site-packages/mx/DateTime/mxDateTime/mxDateTIme.so >whew!) > >-Chris Brian Check if the mode of mxDateTIme.so is -rwxr-xr-x, it noticed that is must be reable. It was the reason why an other .so did work for me. Frans -- X|support bv mailto:frans.schippers@xsupport.nl Grote Beer 189 http://www.xsupport.nl 1188 AZ Amstelveen tel: +31 20 4411 258 ING 6533.74.208 Amstelveen fax: +31 23 5424 282 mbl: +31 653 650 806 KvK 33301359 Amstelveen btw: NL-807284324B01 From chd at ripnet.com Fri Jul 11 12:02:22 2003 From: chd at ripnet.com (Chris Dwyer) Date: Fri Jul 11 11:39:44 2003 Subject: [Pythonmac-SIG] Standalone app possible? Message-ID: <20030711110222387972.GyazMail.chd@ripnet.com> >From a Nu_B Is it possible to make a standalone application that can be distributed without Python? I read something about an Application Builder, but can't find info on it. What options do I have? Thanks Chris From owen at astro.washington.edu Fri Jul 11 14:14:57 2003 From: owen at astro.washington.edu (Russell E Owen) Date: Fri Jul 11 16:15:02 2003 Subject: [Pythonmac-SIG] 2.3b2-b BuildApplet droplets not recognized as apps Message-ID: I've reported this as bug 769406 but I thought others might be interested. I'm certainly curious if others are having the problem. I just upgraded to 10.2.6 today (my DiskWarrior upgrade finally arrived) and the problem remains the same (no surprise). -------- bug as reported ----- I am using MacPython 2.3b2 (installed via the 2.3b2-2 binary installer) on MacOS 10.2.3. I turned zappycfiles.py (from the Mac directory of the 2.3b2 source distribution, which I also have) into a drag-and-drop applet by dragging onto BuildApplet. On the whole it works fine (though no console for feedback and I've not figured out how to get one), but I am having two problems that are almost certainly caused by the same underlying problem: - The Dock does not acknowledge that it's an application. I cannot drag it into the usual app area of the dock. - DragThing (4.6.1, the current version) seems to agree with the Dock. It will not let me drag stuff onto it (even with "Check file types during drags" unchecked). Obviously more of an annoyance than a crisis, but I hope worth fixing. From chris at grabil.ca Sat Jul 12 10:24:10 2003 From: chris at grabil.ca (Chris) Date: Sat Jul 12 09:25:05 2003 Subject: [Pythonmac-SIG] Standalone Message-ID: <20030712092410361862.GyazMail.chris@grabil.ca> >From a Nu_B Is it possible to make a standalone application (freeze) that can be distributed without Python? I read something about an Application Builder, but can't find info on it. What options do I have? I don't really want to get into C++ Thanks Chris From chris at grabil.ca Sat Jul 12 13:54:29 2003 From: chris at grabil.ca (Chris) Date: Sat Jul 12 12:55:23 2003 Subject: [Pythonmac-SIG] Re:2.3b2-b BuildApplet droplets not recognized as apps Message-ID: <20030712125429037845.GyazMail.chris@grabil.ca> Hi Russell Mac files have two hidden properties set when they are created. These are Type and Creator.Your dock problem has to do with Type. It should be set to "APPL" in your applet if you want the dock to take it. The creator type does not matter in this case. Get a shareware program called "File Property Editor" and drag your applet on to it. It will tell you what the file is set at. Just change the Type to APPL and the dock should accept it. Chris From bob at redivi.com Sat Jul 12 15:12:57 2003 From: bob at redivi.com (Bob Ippolito) Date: Sat Jul 12 14:13:37 2003 Subject: [Pythonmac-SIG] Re:2.3b2-b BuildApplet droplets not recognized as apps In-Reply-To: <20030712125429037845.GyazMail.chris@grabil.ca> Message-ID: <772EA2C2-B494-11D7-B516-000A95686CD8@redivi.com> On Saturday, Jul 12, 2003, at 12:54 America/New_York, Chris wrote: > Hi Russell > > Mac files have two hidden properties set when they are > created. > > These are Type and Creator.Your dock problem has to do with > Type. > It should be set to "APPL" in your applet if you want the > dock to > take it. The creator type does not matter in this case. > > Get a shareware program called "File Property Editor" and > drag your applet on to it. It will tell you what the file is > set at. Just change the Type to APPL and the dock should > accept it. If you have Developer Tools installed, type: /Developer/Tools/SetFile -t APPL There's an open source utility that will let you turn shell scripts into droppable applications. IIRC, it's called Drop Script. Another solution, hopefully unsurprisingly, is just to use Python. Here's a sample python session that shows how to do this: [crack:~/test] bob% pythonw Python 2.3b2 (#3, Jul 3 2003, 22:26:01) [GCC 3.1 20020420 (prerelease)] on darwin Type "help", "copyright", "credits" or "license" for more information. >>> import Carbon.File, os >>> open('tempfile', 'w') >>> os.system('/Developer/Tools/GetFileInfo tempfile') file: "tempfile" type: "" creator: "" attributes: avbstclinmed created: 07/12/2003 14:02:15 modified: 07/12/2003 14:02:15 0 >>> fsspec = Carbon.File.FSSpec('tempfile') >>> fsinfo = fsspec.FSpGetFInfo() >>> fsinfo.Type = 'APPL' >>> fsspec.FSpSetFInfo(fsinfo) >>> os.system('/Developer/Tools/GetFileInfo tempfile') file: "tempfile" type: "APPL" creator: "" attributes: avbstclinmed created: 07/12/2003 14:02:15 modified: 07/12/2003 14:02:15 0 I only executed GetFileInfo to demonstrate that applications other than Python agree that the Type had changed. There is no reason to use some shareware garbage when Developer Tools comes with an equivalent tool and Python can do it in 5 lines. Now someone can go dig into BuildApplet's code and figure out where this code needs to be placed and submit a bug+patch on sourceforge. -bob From rowen at cesmail.net Mon Jul 14 09:21:57 2003 From: rowen at cesmail.net (Russell E. Owen) Date: Mon Jul 14 11:24:31 2003 Subject: [Pythonmac-SIG] Re: 2.3b2-b BuildApplet droplets not recognized as apps References: <20030712125429037845.GyazMail.chris@grabil.ca> <772EA2C2-B494-11D7-B516-000A95686CD8@redivi.com> Message-ID: In article <772EA2C2-B494-11D7-B516-000A95686CD8@redivi.com>, Bob Ippolito wrote: > On Saturday, Jul 12, 2003, at 12:54 America/New_York, Chris wrote: > > >..Your dock problem has to do with Type. > > It should be set to "APPL" in your applet if you want the dock to > > take it. The creator type does not matter in this case.... Thank you both very much. It hadn't occurred to me that the dock could possibly care about creator and type because I thought Apple was moving away from relying on those. I have licenses for two different shareware programs that will fix this (XRay and FileBuddy), but very much appreciate the other suggestions -- including the Python code-- to make this change. Presumably I can use similar Python code to get to the file creator (a question I raised earlier but the topic got diverted before I ever got an answer as to how to get and set that date). -- Russell From bob at redivi.com Mon Jul 14 13:05:05 2003 From: bob at redivi.com (Bob Ippolito) Date: Mon Jul 14 12:05:16 2003 Subject: [Pythonmac-SIG] Re: 2.3b2-b BuildApplet droplets not recognized as apps In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Monday, Jul 14, 2003, at 11:21 America/New_York, Russell E. Owen wrote: > In article <772EA2C2-B494-11D7-B516-000A95686CD8@redivi.com>, > Bob Ippolito wrote: > >> On Saturday, Jul 12, 2003, at 12:54 America/New_York, Chris wrote: >> >>> ..Your dock problem has to do with Type. >>> It should be set to "APPL" in your applet if you want the dock to >>> take it. The creator type does not matter in this case.... > > Thank you both very much. It hadn't occurred to me that the dock could > possibly care about creator and type because I thought Apple was moving > away from relying on those. I have licenses for two different shareware > programs that will fix this (XRay and FileBuddy), but very much > appreciate the other suggestions -- including the Python code-- to > make > this change. > > Presumably I can use similar Python code to get to the file creator (a > question I raised earlier but the topic got diverted before I ever got > an answer as to how to get and set that date). I'm pretty sure the creator code would be fsinfo.Creator (referring the the variable in my previous example). -bob From chris at grabil.ca Mon Jul 14 13:21:43 2003 From: chris at grabil.ca (Chris) Date: Mon Jul 14 12:23:11 2003 Subject: [Pythonmac-SIG] Freeze on Mac Message-ID: <20030714122143386103.GyazMail.chris@grabil.ca> I may have got lost in the shuffle. Is it possible to freeze an app on the MacOSX so it can be distributed without any (separate) MacPython interpreter? Is there a compiler in the works or is PytoC++ the only game in town? Thanks Chris Sorry for this stupid question. I would like to use MacPython for application development From jpetrone at cnri.reston.va.us Mon Jul 14 13:40:15 2003 From: jpetrone at cnri.reston.va.us (Jason Petrone) Date: Mon Jul 14 12:40:33 2003 Subject: [Pythonmac-SIG] Freeze on Mac In-Reply-To: <20030714122143386103.GyazMail.chris@grabil.ca> References: <20030714122143386103.GyazMail.chris@grabil.ca> Message-ID: <20030714164015.GB540@cnri.reston.va.us> On Mon, Jul 14, 2003 at 12:21:43PM -0400, Chris wrote: > I may have got lost in the shuffle. > > Is it possible to freeze an app on the MacOSX so it can be > distributed without any (separate) MacPython interpreter? You want bundlebuilder.py, it comes with Python. ''' bundlebuilder.py -- Tools to assemble MacOS X (application) bundles. This module contains two classes to build so called "bundles" for MacOS X. BundleBuilder is a general tool, AppBuilder is a subclass specialized in building application bundles. [Bundle|App]Builder objects are instantiated with a bunch of keyword arguments, and have a build() method that will do all the work. See the class doc strings for a description of the constructor arguments. The module contains a main program that can be used in two ways: % python bundlebuilder.py [options] build % python buildapp.py [options] build Where "buildapp.py" is a user-supplied setup.py-like script following this model: from bundlebuilder import buildapp buildapp() ''' > Is there a compiler in the works or is PytoC++ the only game in town? Why do you want to compile to native? There are three common reasons: - Performance: Because of python dynamic nature, native compilation is not likely to give that much of a speed improvement. - Ease of distribution: Hopefully bundlebuilder on MacOS, py2exe on win32, and McMillan Installer everywhere else, solve this problem sufficiently. I distribute python programs quite frequently, and I take pride in knowing all but the savviest users are not aware they are using anything other than a native binary. - Obfuscation This is the most compelling reason I know for native compilation. I have no idea how one could implement effective anti-piracy measures for a bytecode compiled program. Jason From just at letterror.com Mon Jul 14 20:00:41 2003 From: just at letterror.com (Just van Rossum) Date: Mon Jul 14 13:02:37 2003 Subject: [Pythonmac-SIG] 2.3b2-b BuildApplet droplets not recognized as apps In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Russell E Owen wrote: > I've reported this as bug 769406 > > but I thought others might be interested. I'm certainly curious if > others are having the problem. > > I just upgraded to 10.2.6 today (my DiskWarrior upgrade finally > arrived) and the problem remains the same (no surprise). > > -------- bug as reported ----- > > I am using MacPython 2.3b2 (installed via the 2.3b2-2 binary > installer) on MacOS 10.2.3. > > I turned zappycfiles.py (from the Mac directory of the 2.3b2 source > distribution, which I also have) into a drag-and-drop applet by > dragging onto BuildApplet. On the whole it works fine (though no > console for feedback and I've not figured out how to get one), but I > am having two problems that are almost certainly caused by the same > underlying problem: > > - The Dock does not acknowledge that it's an application. I cannot > drag it into the usual app area of the dock. > > - DragThing (4.6.1, the current version) seems to agree with the > Dock. It will not let me drag stuff onto it (even with "Check file > types during drags" unchecked). > > Obviously more of an annoyance than a crisis, but I hope worth fixing. This was reported just last week on the PyObjC list; it turned out to be a bug in bundlebuilder.py and has been fixed in CVS. Just From berkowit at silcom.com Mon Jul 14 11:25:32 2003 From: berkowit at silcom.com (Paul Berkowitz) Date: Mon Jul 14 13:33:13 2003 Subject: [Pythonmac-SIG] Re: 2.3b2-b BuildApplet droplets not recognized as apps In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 7/14/03 8:21 AM, "Russell E. Owen" wrote: >> On Saturday, Jul 12, 2003, at 12:54 America/New_York, Chris wrote: >> >>> ..Your dock problem has to do with Type. >>> It should be set to "APPL" in your applet if you want the dock to >>> take it. The creator type does not matter in this case.... > > Thank you both very much. It hadn't occurred to me that the dock could > possibly care about creator and type because I thought Apple was moving > away from relying on those. I have licenses for two different shareware > programs that will fix this (XRay and FileBuddy), but very much > appreciate the other suggestions -- including the Python code-- to make > this change. > > Presumably I can use similar Python code to get to the file creator (a > question I raised earlier but the topic got diverted before I ever got > an answer as to how to get and set that date). I don't suppose you'd be interested in a one-line AppleScript that can do the same thing? tell application "Finder" to set file type of file "HD:Folder:file" to "APPL" The way to get the colon-delimited path from a POSIX path is: set colonPathFile to POSIX file "/folder/file" and then you wouldn't need 'file' in the Finder command: tell application "Finder" to set file type of (POSIX file "/folder/file") to "APPL" You can set the creator type the same way if you wish: tell application "Finder" to set creator type of (POSIX file "/folder/file") to "myTP" Or in one go: tell application "Finder" tell (POSIX file "/folder/file") set {file type, creator type} to {"APPL", "myTP"} end tell end tell -- Paul Berkowitz From zen at shangri-la.dropbear.id.au Tue Jul 15 14:20:00 2003 From: zen at shangri-la.dropbear.id.au (Stuart Bishop) Date: Mon Jul 14 23:20:13 2003 Subject: [Pythonmac-SIG] 2.3b2 vs PyXML 0.8.2 Message-ID: <380D686E-B673-11D7-81E3-000A95A06FC6@shangri-la.dropbear.id.au> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 PyXML 0.8.2 builds and installs happily using the MacPython 2.3b2 distribution. However, it breaks things majorly once installed. I've successfully built and used this under Python2.2 on mac, and Python2.3 (not current) under linux. Any thoughts on if this goes on the PyXML bug tracker or the Python os-specific bug tracker? >>> import xml.dom Traceback (most recent call last): File "", line 1, in ? File "/Library/Frameworks/Python.framework/Versions/2.3/lib/python2.3/site- packages/_xmlplus/dom/__init__.py", line 237, in ? import MessageSource File "/Library/Frameworks/Python.framework/Versions/2.3/lib/python2.3/site- packages/_xmlplus/dom/MessageSource.py", line 22, in ? gettext.install('4Suite', locale_dir) File "/Library/Frameworks/Python.framework/Versions/2.3/lib/python2.3/ gettext.py", line 428, in install translation(domain, localedir, fallback=True).install(unicode) File "/Library/Frameworks/Python.framework/Versions/2.3/lib/python2.3/ gettext.py", line 416, in translation t = _translations.setdefault(key, class_(open(mofile, 'rb'))) File "/Library/Frameworks/Python.framework/Versions/2.3/lib/python2.3/ gettext.py", line 176, in __init__ self._parse(fp) File "/Library/Frameworks/Python.framework/Versions/2.3/lib/python2.3/ gettext.py", line 304, in _parse tmsg = unicode(tmsg, self._charset) LookupError: unknown encoding: CHARSET >>> - -- Stuart Bishop http://shangri-la.dropbear.id.au/ -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.1 (Darwin) iD8DBQE/E3Lhh8iUz1x5geARAqAPAJ9BgkrsEUBCSzIzZ4tndQAZJnFsgQCgvpo9 nJn12k2ITgT3aDIhKCx/6qg= =tpFa -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From robin at reportlab.com Tue Jul 15 12:26:04 2003 From: robin at reportlab.com (Robin Becker) Date: Tue Jul 15 06:27:51 2003 Subject: [Pythonmac-SIG] an OS X problem Message-ID: I'm not a great expert at the Mac at all so can some one explain how to do what this OS X user requires In article <4455674D-B1F2-11D7-8D28-0030654ABF76@proboscis.org.uk>, Proboscis Admin writes >Dear reportLab, > >First Thank you for your great system. >I am seeking very urgent help. I am trying to install report lab and >python on an iMac OSX, now because it is an OSX it does not have a file >exchange control panel & therefore I am not sure how to conigure so the >operating system reads .py files as text files. Your very well >explained user guide for Mac is for OS9. > >any advice? > >Plaese help ASAP. > >Kindest, > >Proboscis -- Robin Becker From L.Pritchard at scri.sari.ac.uk Tue Jul 15 13:45:30 2003 From: L.Pritchard at scri.sari.ac.uk (Leighton Pritchard) Date: Tue Jul 15 07:46:13 2003 Subject: [Pythonmac-SIG] an OS X problem In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20030715124126.00abc1b0@caird> Hi Robin, Select the (or a) file ending in .py. Either use , or right-click (or ) and select Get Info, or select File->Get Info from the menu bar, to bring up the Get Info window for that file. Click on the wee triangle by Open with: and then select a text editor for that file. Then click on the Change All button. Hopefully that should work, but the usual disclaimers apply ;) At 11:26 AM 7/15/03 +0100, Robin Becker wrote: >I'm not a great expert at the Mac at all so can some one explain how to >do what this OS X user requires > >In article <4455674D-B1F2-11D7-8D28-0030654ABF76@proboscis.org.uk>, >Proboscis Admin writes > >Dear reportLab, > > > >First Thank you for your great system. > >I am seeking very urgent help. I am trying to install report lab and > >python on an iMac OSX, now because it is an OSX it does not have a file > >exchange control panel & therefore I am not sure how to conigure so the > >operating system reads .py files as text files. Your very well > >explained user guide for Mac is for OS9. > > > >any advice? > > > >Plaese help ASAP. > > > >Kindest, > > > >Proboscis > >-- >Robin Becker > >_______________________________________________ >Pythonmac-SIG maillist - Pythonmac-SIG@python.org >http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pythonmac-sig From robin at reportlab.com Tue Jul 15 19:53:23 2003 From: robin at reportlab.com (Robin Becker) Date: Tue Jul 15 13:54:32 2003 Subject: [Pythonmac-SIG] an OS X problem In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.0.20030715124126.00abc1b0@caird> References: <5.2.1.1.0.20030715124126.00abc1b0@caird> Message-ID: In article <5.2.1.1.0.20030715124126.00abc1b0@caird>, Leighton Pritchard writes >Hi Robin, > >Select the (or a) file ending in .py. Either use , or right-click >(or ) and select Get Info, or select File->Get Info from >the menu bar, to bring up the Get Info window for that file. Click on the >wee triangle by Open with: and then select a text editor for that file. >Then click on the Change All button. > >Hopefully that should work, but the usual disclaimers apply ;) > ....thanks very much. -- Robin Becker From bob at redivi.com Tue Jul 15 19:06:40 2003 From: bob at redivi.com (Bob Ippolito) Date: Tue Jul 15 18:06:48 2003 Subject: [Pythonmac-SIG] pythonificiation of scriptable applications Message-ID: <9C8080B6-B710-11D7-B9C2-000A95686CD8@redivi.com> << warning, this post is long.. most of it just just example code >> I've been working on a non-backwards-compatible replacement for the ancient (what is it, 8 years old? from the old codebase I can see python didn't even have %r or isinstance) gensuitemodule/aepack/aetools modules. My primary goal was to make the stuff easy enough for me to use at the interpreter, without having to remember how backwards AE is. Here are some of the advantages to the new system: - it's extremely easy to use - creation of these modules is done in pure python, without a source code template step (but .py files can be automatically generated by inspecting the module!) - compilation is done as a generator that yields status messages (basically right now essentially spits out documentation for the package while it's compiling) - it has a pretty scary class/suite dependency resolution algorithm, so that classes in the aete are actually subclasses of their parent, even the implicit ones (by way of the same code, as in subclassing capp implicitly) - it's self documenting, _every_ class has proper doc strings (or repr(), depending.. due to some scary descriptor tricks) that are actually generated from the aete! - it has a scary type registry that does just about everything you'd want it to with regard to packing/unpacking without a huge if:else: loop Here are some of the disadvantages: 1 - it tries really hard to return objects that you want all the time (via __get__, __getitem__, etc.), this means it's chattier wrt to sending apple events. this is hard to get around because python parses forward, not backwards like applescript :) 2 - this is typically a non-issue, but because you can't build complex descriptors (i.e. setting more than one property of a class) you can hit bottlenecks. for example, iTunes, with my gigantic music library, takes a sweet second or more to update a single property of a single track (even from its own interface). If you're updating a range of tracks from the interface, or more than one property in one fell swoop, it can be a faster process. 3 - it's very much incompatible with the current modules, and I don't have a clever new name for my version yet (currently it's just a package named aepy with very similar modules as gensuite and friends). 4 - there is no support for async methods I'm not particularly interested in solving 1, 2, or 3 because I don't see them as real problems if 4 were to be implemented. Solving 4 would be difficult, but not impossible.. Primarily because I have zero experience with Carbon event loops and I actually don't have a whole lot of experience with apple events in general, I'm just playing it by AEDebug, Script Editor, the existing code, pestering donovan, and guessing. Here's some example interactive sessions so you can get an idea of what I'm talking about here: ( Note that all these examples are using unmodified but pregenerated packages generated by the introspector, so they import quickly. However, "on the fly" wrapping of an aete takes anywhere between ~0.5 and 2.0 seconds on my 1ghz -- most of that time is spent waiting for the application to respond with the aete and generating egregious debugging messages. I can optimize a lot of stuff after I get a better idea of what assumptions I can and can't make about apple events. ) [crack:~/src/aepy] bob% pythonw Python 2.3b2 (#3, Jul 3 2003, 22:26:01) [GCC 3.1 20020420 (prerelease)] on darwin Type "help", "copyright", "credits" or "license" for more information. >>> from Mail import * >>> m = Mail() >>> len(m.windows) 3 >>> for w in m.windows: ... print w.name ... So, who's using apple events from python? mac ? bob@new.redivi.com Rules >>> repr(m.__class__.windows) 'window by name, index, relative position, range, test, unique id' >>> w = m.windows.first >>> w.properties # This ought to be in english, but I'm afraid I'll have to special-case this descriptor hardcore since implicitly I only know it's an AERecord {'prsz': True, 'pcls': Type(cwin), 'pvis': True, 'pidx': 1, 'pmod': False, 'pmnd': False, 'pbnd': QDRectangle(0, 84, 991, 1166), 'docu': Type(msng), 'hclb': True, 'isfl': False, 'ID ': 3427, 'ismn': True, 'pnam': u"So, who's using apple events from python?", 'iszm': True, 'pzum': False, 'ptit': False} >>> w.class_ Type(cwin) >>> w.name, w.index, w.ID, w.name, w.modal (u"So, who's using apple events from python?", 3, 3427, u"So, who's using apple events from python?", False) >>> m.accounts["bob@new.redivi.com"].mailboxes["lists/python/mac"] mailbox(u'lists/python/mac', account(u'bob@new.redivi.com')) >>> m.accounts["bob@new.redivi.com"].mailboxes["lists/python/mac"].messages mailbox(u'lists/python/mac', account(u'bob@new.redivi.com')).message(???) >>> len(m.accounts["bob@new.redivi.com"].mailboxes["lists/python/ mac"].messages) 191 >>> m.accounts["bob@new.redivi.com"].mailboxes["lists/python/ mac"].messages.any.subject u'Re: [Pythonmac-SIG] Apple Events / iTunes' >>> m.accounts["bob@new.redivi.com"].mailboxes["lists/python/ mac"].messages.any.subject u'Re: [Pythonmac-SIG] which python pil?' >>> m.message_viewers.first message_viewer(30799328) >>> v = m.message_viewers.first >>> v.is_sorted_ascending True >>> v.selected_mailboxes [mailbox(u'lists/python/mac', account(u'bob@new.redivi.com'))] >>> v.visible_columns # I'm sure these constants mean something, but not as far as I can tell wrt the aete [1701014899, 1701013106, 1701016437, 1701012594, 1701011828, 1701013100] >>> v.sort_column 'date_received_column' [crack:~/src/aepy] bob% pythonw Python 2.3b2 (#3, Jul 3 2003, 22:26:01) [GCC 3.1 20020420 (prerelease)] on darwin Type "help", "copyright", "credits" or "license" for more information. >>> from iTunes import * >>> i = iTunes() >>> i.source.first.playlist.first library_playlist(7940, source(32)) >>> len(i.source.first.playlist.first.tracks) 7907 >>> print ' - '.join((i.current_track.name, i.current_track.artist, i.current_track.album)) kumari - Muslimgauze - Ingaza >>> p = i.source.first.playlist.first >>> p.track["kumari"] file_track(15212, library_playlist(7940, source(32))) >>> p.track["kumari"].album u'Ingaza' >>> p.duration 2441630 >>> min, sec = divmod(p.duration, 60) >>> hr, min = divmod(min, 60) >>> day, hr = divmod(hr, 24) >>> print "%02d:%02d:%02d:%02d total time" % (day, hr, min, sec) 28:06:13:50 total time >>> p.track.first.location >>> f = _ >>> import Carbon.File >>> Carbon.File.pathname(f.FSResolveAlias(None)[0]).encode('utf8') "/Volumes/Pipe/Music/ongaku/[electronica]/[The Orb]/[96 Auntie Aubrey's...]/[Disc Two]/01 You Gotta Say Yes To.mp3" [crack:~/src/aepy] bob% pythonw Python 2.3b2 (#3, Jul 3 2003, 22:26:01) [GCC 3.1 20020420 (prerelease)] on darwin Type "help", "copyright", "credits" or "license" for more information. >>> from Finder import * >>> f = Finder() >>> f.startup_disk disk(Type(sdsk)) >>> f.desktop desktop_object(Type(desk)) >>> d = _ >>> d.class_ Type(desk) >>> # note it's REALLY a cdsk, but the code is smart enough to work around this bug in finder! :) ... >>> unicode(d) # __unicode__ and __str__ try and find a pnam for things u'Crack:Users:bob:Desktop:' >>> d.url u'file://localhost/Users/bob/Desktop/' >>> import Carbon.File >>> d._as(Carbon.File.Alias) # look ma, intelligent type coercion! >>> f = _ >>> Carbon.File.pathname(f.FSResolveAlias(None)[0]) '/Users/bob/Desktop' As you can see, this stuff is really cool and I look forward to releasing it. It should be ready for general consumption in a few days. Please forward any suggestions/ideas/etc to me ASAP before I get bored of Apple Events ;) A good name for the new module would be greatly appreciated as well, because surely someone has legacy code that they still need and I don't want to stomp on any toes. I also hate Carbon.File with a passion, as soon as I get back I'm going to pester him about putting bidirectional unix path conversions to and from Alias, FSSpec, and FSRef. I understand that Alias is useful because it can describe files in a persistent way, but god damn are they annoying little beasts if you're a unix guy. -bob From bob at redivi.com Tue Jul 15 19:10:01 2003 From: bob at redivi.com (Bob Ippolito) Date: Tue Jul 15 18:10:07 2003 Subject: [Pythonmac-SIG] pythonificiation of scriptable applications In-Reply-To: <9C8080B6-B710-11D7-B9C2-000A95686CD8@redivi.com> Message-ID: <14338896-B711-11D7-B9C2-000A95686CD8@redivi.com> On Tuesday, Jul 15, 2003, at 18:06 America/New_York, Bob Ippolito wrote: > I also hate Carbon.File with a passion, as soon as I get back I'm > going to pester him about putting bidirectional unix path conversions > to and from Alias, FSSpec, and FSRef. I understand that Alias is > useful because it can describe files in a persistent way, but god damn > are they annoying little beasts if you're a unix guy. err.. as soon as jack gets back. -bob From bdash at gmx.net Wed Jul 16 20:44:05 2003 From: bdash at gmx.net (Mark Rowe) Date: Wed Jul 16 03:45:08 2003 Subject: [Pythonmac-SIG] Python 2.3 on OS X with readline Message-ID: <46C80EB7-B761-11D7-A62E-00039344A992@gmx.net> Hi, I make a habit of running a CVS version of Python for testing purposes. Recently I noticed that readline support has stopped functioning in my compiled versions. A little digging has shown that the readline module is being compiled and installed, and that the interpreter is importing it on startup. The problem appears to be that the readline module (Modules/readline.c) is using its own local copy of the PyOS_ReadlineFunctionPointer variable instead of the one defined in Parser/myreadline.c . I am unsure what has caused this to happen. Any advice on solving this issue would be appreciated. Thanks, Mark Rowe From gandreas at delver.com Wed Jul 16 10:19:14 2003 From: gandreas at delver.com (Glenn Andreas) Date: Wed Jul 16 10:20:07 2003 Subject: [Pythonmac-SIG] Embedding and PyObjC - 2.3 Framework? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I've got the start of a project that I want to use PyObjC with embedded python, but I'm running into a problem. According to the PyObjC embedding docs, one should use the 2.3 based Python.Framework. When I do this, when the objc is dynamically loaded, it fails, being unable to find PyDescr_IsData (and a quick nm & grep shows that it isn't in the 2.3 based framework that I downloaded last night). Since I had the 2.2.1 sources handy, I compiled the 2.2 based Python.Framework, and when linking with that, everything works. (I also tried to statically link in the 2.2.1 libpython.a that I build, but that has other problems). This is basically an IDE (similar to the OS 9/Carbon Python IDE, but built with Cocoa), so at this point since it is targetting developers, telling them "download the latest Python.Framework and PyObjC" is acceptable (if it worked), but "download the 2.2.1 sources, compile & install the framework, and then download PyObjC" is just a bit above the pain threshold. Ultimately, of course, I'd like to have a single app that can be downloaded with no other external requirements, but that's a problem for later... Glenn Andreas gandreas@delver.com Author of Macintosh games: Theldrow 2.3, Blobbo 1.0.2, Cythera 1.0.2 Be good, and you will be lonesome From mwh at python.net Wed Jul 16 16:34:47 2003 From: mwh at python.net (Michael Hudson) Date: Wed Jul 16 10:34:50 2003 Subject: [Pythonmac-SIG] Embedding and PyObjC - 2.3 Framework? In-Reply-To: (Glenn Andreas's message of "Wed, 16 Jul 2003 09:19:14 -0500") References: Message-ID: <2mn0fepmk8.fsf@starship.python.net> Glenn Andreas writes: > I've got the start of a project that I want to use PyObjC with > embedded python, but I'm running into a problem. > > According to the PyObjC embedding docs, one should use the 2.3 based > Python.Framework. When I do this, when the objc is dynamically > loaded, it fails, being unable to find PyDescr_IsData (and a quick nm > & grep shows that it isn't in the 2.3 based framework that I > downloaded last night). PyDescr_IsData is a macro in 2.3. Is your version of PyObjC built against 2.2? Cheers, M. -- $ head -n 2 src/bash/bash-2.04/unwind_prot.c /* I can't stand it anymore! Please can't we just write the whole Unix system in lisp or something? */ -- spotted by Rich van der Hoff From dev_python at impactdev.com Wed Jul 16 09:22:39 2003 From: dev_python at impactdev.com (Python Development) Date: Wed Jul 16 11:22:43 2003 Subject: [Pythonmac-SIG] McMillan installer on OS X Message-ID: <56388ED0-B7A1-11D7-B11E-00306578E9DA@impactdev.com> Hi, I am working on a McMillan installer app for OSX, but it also needs to be a startup item (e.g. it needs to run at login). I recall in another project that we had problems configuring startup items and went to a tool approach for our code. Has anyone had success with a McMillan installer app running at startup time on OS X? Randy From chris at grabil.ca Wed Jul 16 15:42:49 2003 From: chris at grabil.ca (Chris) Date: Wed Jul 16 14:44:16 2003 Subject: [Pythonmac-SIG] McMillan installer on OS X Message-ID: <20030716144249953240.GyazMail.chris@grabil.ca> May sound naive but can't you simply put it into the Library/StartUpItems or are these booted after the login? Chris From just at letterror.com Thu Jul 17 08:43:07 2003 From: just at letterror.com (Just van Rossum) Date: Thu Jul 17 09:00:05 2003 Subject: [Pythonmac-SIG] Python 2.3 on OS X with readline In-Reply-To: <46C80EB7-B761-11D7-A62E-00039344A992@gmx.net> Message-ID: Mark Rowe wrote: > Hi, > > I make a habit of running a CVS version of Python for testing > purposes. Recently I noticed that readline support has stopped > functioning in my compiled versions. A little digging has shown that > the readline module is being compiled and installed, and that the > interpreter is importing it on startup. The problem appears to be > that the readline module (Modules/readline.c) is using its own local > copy of the PyOS_ReadlineFunctionPointer variable instead of the one > defined in Parser/myreadline.c . I am unsure what has caused this to > happen. I just saw that, too, and found the (recent) change that caused it. I've posted a note to the committer and the python checkins list. Just From timbuktu at myrealbox.com Thu Jul 17 20:06:48 2003 From: timbuktu at myrealbox.com (Mark Kim) Date: Thu Jul 17 20:06:55 2003 Subject: [Pythonmac-SIG] MacPython 2.3b2, CarbonEvt.ReceiveNextEvent() Message-ID: <3F173A18.6030802@myrealbox.com> Hi all, I'm a developer with Transana (www.transana.org) and I am working on integrating Quicktime into our program using WxPython, MacPython 2.3b2, and ctypes 0.6.2. My question pertains to Carbon events, specifically ReceiveNextEvent. At the Apple developer website, ReceiveNextEvent has an inList variable (const EventTypeSpec *inList) which can be specified as Null "if any event should cause this function to return." I've tried passing ReceiveNextEvent a 0 and None/NULL, but it always throws an error, "TypeError: argument must be 2-item sequence, not None" or "int". I looked at _CarbonEvtModule.c and it doesn't look like I can pass ReceiveNextEvent a Null because it demands a type of EventTypeSpec. The only way I can think to avoid this is to make a list of all the eventhandlers *groan*. Am I making this too difficult on myself and is there a better solution? Thanks! Mark From chris at fisher.forestry.uga.edu Thu Jul 17 21:13:06 2003 From: chris at fisher.forestry.uga.edu (chris@fisher.forestry.uga.edu) Date: Thu Jul 17 20:13:09 2003 Subject: [Pythonmac-SIG] scrollback? Message-ID: <1058487186.3f173b9260300@fisher.forestry.uga.edu> Is there any way of properly enabling the arrow keys in macpython? Either trying to scrollback with the up and down arrows, or moving through the current line with the left and right arrows instead produces nonsense characters like "^[[A". This is very frustrating; does anyone know how I can fix this? Thanks, cjf ------------------------------------------------- This mail sent through IMP: http://horde.org/imp/ From bob at redivi.com Thu Jul 17 23:56:34 2003 From: bob at redivi.com (Bob Ippolito) Date: Thu Jul 17 22:56:45 2003 Subject: [Pythonmac-SIG] ANN: aeve - pythonificiation of scriptable applications In-Reply-To: <14338896-B711-11D7-B9C2-000A95686CD8@redivi.com> Message-ID: <70FD825F-B8CB-11D7-8336-000A95686CD8@redivi.com> Here's a preview: http://undefined.org/python/aeve-preview.tgz It requires Python 2.3b2 (developed/tested using Jack's latest .dmg installer) Check out examples/missingTrackFinder.py - an example utility that finds all the file tracks in your iTunes library whose mp3 files are missing. Take a peek, try it out with some things, let me know what you all think. -bob From jjb5 at cornell.edu Fri Jul 18 12:54:03 2003 From: jjb5 at cornell.edu (Joel Bender) Date: Fri Jul 18 11:54:03 2003 Subject: [Pythonmac-SIG] MySQLdb module installation, no lib? Message-ID: MacOS 10.2.6, python 2.2.2 [Apple], MySQL 3.23.56, MySQL-python-0.9.2 I'm having problems installing the MySQLdb module. The build is looking for /usr/lib/mysql, which doesn't exist as far as I can tell. Is there some optional MySQL installation that I need to do? The MySQL installation I got from Mark Liyanage at www.entropy.ch. Joel From bdash at gmx.net Fri Jul 18 23:48:06 2003 From: bdash at gmx.net (Mark Rowe) Date: Fri Jul 18 18:44:39 2003 Subject: [Pythonmac-SIG] Python 2.3 on OS X with readline In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5057630E-B90D-11D7-AB85-00039344A992@gmx.net> On Friday, Jul 18, 2003, at 00:43 Pacific/Auckland, Just van Rossum wrote: > Mark Rowe wrote: >> I make a habit of running a CVS version of Python for testing >> purposes. Recently I noticed that readline support has stopped >> functioning in my compiled versions. A little digging has shown that >> the readline module is being compiled and installed, and that the >> interpreter is importing it on startup. The problem appears to be >> that the readline module (Modules/readline.c) is using its own local >> copy of the PyOS_ReadlineFunctionPointer variable instead of the one >> defined in Parser/myreadline.c . I am unsure what has caused this to >> happen. > > I just saw that, too, and found the (recent) change that caused it. > I've > posted a note to the committer and the python checkins list. Thanks for that. The latest code in CVS does indeed fix this problem. Mark Rowe From english at spiritone.com Sat Jul 19 01:32:44 2003 From: english at spiritone.com (Josh English) Date: Fri Jul 18 20:32:44 2003 Subject: [Pythonmac-SIG] unittest Question Message-ID: <3F1891A8.B99847A7@spiritone.com> I have another quick (and dumb) question. I am trying to use the unittest module to test a function I am trying to write. I am working on Mac OS 9 using Python 2.2.2 (I am always slow to upgrade) and I am basing my unittest development off of Dive Into Python's chapter on unittesting (http://www.diveintopython.org/roman_stage1.html). I don't have a command line, so when I run the program using unittest.main() I get the following output: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Ran 0 tests in 0.000s OK So I can't figure out why unittest isn't running tests. I also can't figure out how to pass command-line arguments to the function call. Looking at the code I thought that unittest.main(argv='-v') would work, but all I get is an error that "module object has no attribute 'v'" Can anyone help me on yet another dumb question? Thanks, Josh English english@spiritone.com From calvin at xmission.com Fri Jul 18 21:12:16 2003 From: calvin at xmission.com (Calvin) Date: Fri Jul 18 22:12:20 2003 Subject: [Pythonmac-SIG] MySQLdb module installation, no lib? In-Reply-To: from "Joel Bender" at Jul 18, 2003 11:54:03 AM Message-ID: where is your MySQL installed? typically it installs in /usr/local How did you install MySQL? -calvin > > MacOS 10.2.6, python 2.2.2 [Apple], MySQL 3.23.56, MySQL-python-0.9.2 > > I'm having problems installing the MySQLdb module. The build is > looking for /usr/lib/mysql, which doesn't exist as far as I can tell. > Is there some optional MySQL installation that I need to do? The > MySQL installation I got from Mark Liyanage at www.entropy.ch. From skip at pobox.com Sat Jul 19 08:52:12 2003 From: skip at pobox.com (Skip Montanaro) Date: Sat Jul 19 08:52:17 2003 Subject: [Pythonmac-SIG] unittest Question In-Reply-To: <3F1891A8.B99847A7@spiritone.com> References: <3F1891A8.B99847A7@spiritone.com> Message-ID: <16153.16124.364777.365437@montanaro.dyndns.org> Josh> I don't have a command line, so when I run the program using Josh> unittest.main() I get the following output: Josh> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Josh> Ran 0 tests in 0.000s Josh> OK What's the structure of your test module look like? Your test case classes must be subclasses of unittest.TestCase and any test methods you want run must begin with "test" (or is it "test_"?). If either is not the case, unittest.main won't find and execute anything. Have you looked at some of the unittest-based test cases in the Python source? Here's the entire code from the shortest one, Lib/test/test_grp.py: import grp import test_support import unittest class GroupDatabaseTestCase(unittest.TestCase): def setUp(self): self.groups = grp.getgrall() def test_getgrgid(self): entry = grp.getgrgid(self.groups[0][2]) def test_getgrnam(self): entry = grp.getgrnam(self.groups[0][0]) def test_main(): test_support.run_unittest(GroupDatabaseTestCase) if __name__ == "__main__": test_main() That can be slightly simplified to: import grp import unittest class GroupDatabaseTestCase(unittest.TestCase): def setUp(self): self.groups = grp.getgrall() def test_getgrgid(self): entry = grp.getgrgid(self.groups[0][2]) def test_getgrnam(self): entry = grp.getgrnam(self.groups[0][0]) if __name__ == "__main__": unittest.main() If I run it with Python 2.2 I get: test_getgrgid (__main__.GroupDatabaseTestCase) ... ok test_getgrnam (__main__.GroupDatabaseTestCase) ... ok ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Ran 2 tests in 0.056s OK Skip From heafnerj at vnet.net Sat Jul 19 12:00:20 2003 From: heafnerj at vnet.net (Joe Heafner) Date: Sat Jul 19 11:00:58 2003 Subject: [Pythonmac-SIG] webbrowser.py In-Reply-To: <16153.16124.364777.365437@montanaro.dyndns.org> Message-ID: Hi. I'm running Python2.2 as supplied by the Fink project. I need Python so I can use VPython (http://www.vpython.org) for the physics courses I teach. My Macs run OS X 10.2.6 and Apple's X11 Beta 3. VPython comes with IDLE_fork as a programming IDE. The VPython folks suggested I post my query here. The problem is webbrowser.py. In IDLE_fork, pressing F1 is supposed to bring up documentation. It works under Windows but not under OS X. The problem seems to be that webbrowser.py doesn't know how to bring up the default browser under OS X. I use Safari 1.0. I've searched through various archives and have found nothing, at least nothing that I can claim to understand and I've certainly seen no mention of Safari. So, my two questions are as follows: 1) Can someone please tell me how to get webbrowser.py working under OS X? 2) What advantages, if any, would MacPython have over the more unix-style Python supplied by Fink, and would the Visual module work under MacPython? Cheers, Joe Heafner ----- Use it! Be sure to complain about having to re-register every five years and about the fact that political fundraisers are exempt! From tony at lownds.com Sat Jul 19 10:16:40 2003 From: tony at lownds.com (Tony Lownds) Date: Sat Jul 19 14:48:58 2003 Subject: [Pythonmac-SIG] webbrowser.py In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 11:00 AM -0400 7/19/03, Joe Heafner wrote: >Hi. >I'm running Python2.2 as supplied by the Fink project. I need Python >so I can use VPython (http://www.vpython.org) for the physics >courses I teach. My Macs run OS X 10.2.6 and Apple's X11 Beta 3. >VPython comes with IDLE_fork as a programming IDE. The VPython folks >suggested I post my query here. > >The problem is webbrowser.py. In IDLE_fork, pressing F1 is supposed >to bring up documentation. It works under Windows but not under OS >X. The problem seems to be that webbrowser.py doesn't know how to >bring up the default browser under OS X. I use Safari 1.0. I've >searched through various archives and have found nothing, at least >nothing that I can claim to understand and I've certainly seen no >mention of Safari. So, my two questions are as follows: > >1) Can someone please tell me how to get webbrowser.py working under OS X? Set the environment variable BROWSER=open before you launch VPython The "open" command knows how to open URLs, and setting BROWSER will teach webbrowser.py how to use it. Or is setting environment variables is a pain you can add this to site.py import webbrowser webbrowser.register('open', webbrowser.GenericBrowser("open '%s'")) webbrowser._tryorder.append('open') Hope this helps -Tony From heafnerj at vnet.net Sat Jul 19 17:42:33 2003 From: heafnerj at vnet.net (Joe Heafner) Date: Sat Jul 19 16:43:44 2003 Subject: [Pythonmac-SIG] webbrowser.py In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <85B70C6A-BA29-11D7-8DCD-0003937E843E@vnet.net> On Saturday, Jul 19, 2003, at 12:16 US/Eastern, Tony Lownds wrote: > Set the environment variable BROWSER=open before you launch VPython > > The "open" command knows how to open URLs, and setting BROWSER will > teach webbrowser.py how to use it. THAT WORKED! Thank you very much! Cheers, Joe Heafner ----- Use it! Be sure to complain about having to re-register every five years and about the fact that political fundraisers are exempt! From english at spiritone.com Sat Jul 19 23:19:07 2003 From: english at spiritone.com (Josh English) Date: Sat Jul 19 18:19:09 2003 Subject: [Pythonmac-SIG] unittest Question References: <3F1891A8.B99847A7@spiritone.com> <16153.16124.364777.365437@montanaro.dyndns.org> Message-ID: <3F19C3B2.DABCBF1E@spiritone.com> Thanks for the help. I tried running several tests in the Lib:Tests folder and the ones I got to run all used the test_support module. I even tried running the simple example from the unittest doc string in the IDE and it ran 0 tests. I can run it through the interpreter and it works just fine. I'm getting the same behavior now with my test program. It doesn't run a single test in the IDE but will run tests when I run it through the interpreter. This is without using the test_support module. If I use the test_support module it will work in the IDE, which is good. I don't like using the Interpreter. Thanks again, Josh English From Jack.Jansen at cwi.nl Sun Jul 20 03:19:08 2003 From: Jack.Jansen at cwi.nl (Jack Jansen) Date: Sat Jul 19 20:19:14 2003 Subject: [Pythonmac-SIG] scrollback? In-Reply-To: <1058487186.3f173b9260300@fisher.forestry.uga.edu> Message-ID: On vrijdag, jul 18, 2003, at 02:13 Europe/Amsterdam, chris@fisher.forestry.uga.edu wrote: > Is there any way of properly enabling the arrow keys in macpython? > Either > trying to scrollback with the up and down arrows, or moving through the > current line with the left and right arrows instead produces nonsense > characters like "^[[A". This is very frustrating; does anyone know how > I can > fix this? Which "MacPython" are you referring to, here? If you're referring to either MacPython 2.2.X or MacPython-OS9 2.3 then the answer is: "No, MacPython for OS9 is in maintenance mode". If it's about MacPython 2.3 for OSX then the next question is "where are you experiencing this? In the IDE? In a Terminal window?" -- - Jack Jansen http://www.cwi.nl/~jack - - If I can't dance I don't want to be part of your revolution -- Emma Goldman - From jjb5 at cornell.edu Mon Jul 21 11:45:25 2003 From: jjb5 at cornell.edu (Joel Bender) Date: Mon Jul 21 10:45:19 2003 Subject: [Pythonmac-SIG] MySQLdb module installation, no lib? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >where is your MySQL installed? There is a link from /usr/local/mysql to /usr/local/mysql-max-4.0.13-apple-darwin6.4-powerpc which contains mysqld. >Typically it installs in /usr/local How did you install MySQL? I followed the instructions here . I just double clicked on the mysql-max-4.0.13.dmg file from and all was well and good. Joel From dev_python at impactdev.com Mon Jul 21 13:16:18 2003 From: dev_python at impactdev.com (Python Development) Date: Mon Jul 21 15:16:24 2003 Subject: [Pythonmac-SIG] bundled & shared library with python In-Reply-To: <5057630E-B90D-11D7-AB85-00039344A992@gmx.net> Message-ID: Hi, Has anyone taken an app (bundle, .nib, Localized.rsrc, ...) and invoke it from another app, such that it runs not as a different process from the calling program, but on a second thread in some sort of shared library in a two threaded app? What I am trying to do is call a small program that handles a system status bar (NSStatusBar/NSStatusItem -- like the sound status menu) from within a program which is running two threads. One thread is for python & modules, while the other thread is for this system status bar. Obviously, I can get a python (& modules) and a system status bar app to run as two different processes and communicate between each other. In combining these two programs on two threads in one program, I hope to reduce possible problems. Thank you in advance, Randy -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/enriched Size: 900 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://mail.python.org/pipermail/pythonmac-sig/attachments/20030721/246774ea/attachment.bin From bob at redivi.com Mon Jul 21 16:51:32 2003 From: bob at redivi.com (Bob Ippolito) Date: Mon Jul 21 15:51:47 2003 Subject: [Pythonmac-SIG] bundled & shared library with python In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Monday, Jul 21, 2003, at 15:16 America/New_York, Python Development wrote: > Hi, > > Has anyone taken an app (bundle, .nib, Localized.rsrc, ...) and invoke > it from another app, such that it runs not as a different process from > the calling program, but on a second thread in some sort of shared > library in a two threaded app? > > What I am trying to do is call a small program that handles a system > status bar (NSStatusBar/NSStatusItem -- like the sound status menu) > from within a program which is running two threads. One thread is for > python & modules, while the other thread is for this system status > bar. Obviously, I can get a python (& modules) and a system status > bar app to run as two different processes and communicate between each > other. In combining these two programs on two threads in one program, > I hope to reduce possible problems. Only one thread per process can have a UI runloop. You either need to refactor your software so that it shares the runloop between both tasks (best option), or make two separate processes communicate with each other. Threads typically cause more (or at least, less obvious and harder to find/fix) problems than separate processes, anyways. -bob -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/enriched Size: 1320 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://mail.python.org/pipermail/pythonmac-sig/attachments/20030721/a55c78d9/attachment.bin From dev_python at impactdev.com Mon Jul 21 14:45:32 2003 From: dev_python at impactdev.com (Python Development) Date: Mon Jul 21 16:45:36 2003 Subject: [Pythonmac-SIG] bundled & shared library with python In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <454A16E4-BBBC-11D7-BC8B-00306578E9DA@impactdev.com> On Monday, July 21, 2003, at 12:51 PM, Bob Ippolito wrote: > On Monday, Jul 21, 2003, at 15:16 America/New_York, Python Development > wrote: > >> Hi, >> >> Has anyone taken an app (bundle, .nib, Localized.rsrc, ...) and >> invoke it from another app, such that it runs not as a different >> process from the calling program, but on a second thread in some sort >> of shared library in a two threaded app? >> >> What I am trying to do is call a small program that handles a system >> status bar (NSStatusBar/NSStatusItem -- like the sound status menu) >> from within a program which is running two threads. One thread is >> for python & modules, while the other thread is for this system >> status bar. Obviously, I can get a python (& modules) and a system >> status bar app to run as two different processes and communicate >> between each other. In combining these two programs on two threads >> in one program, I hope to reduce possible problems. > > Only one thread per process can have a UI runloop. You either need to > refactor your software so that it shares the runloop between both > tasks (best option), or make two separate processes communicate with > each other. > > Threads typically cause more (or at least, less obvious and harder to > find/fix) problems than separate processes, anyways. > > -bob > Only one of the threads has the UI and the other handles the comm, which is written in Python and uses C modules (per the PC spec). I also agree with you regarding the thread input. I have been creating a list of reasons why the two process model is better verses the single process for my boss and lead engineer (who is a PC only person). While I have believed that the two process approach was best and have shown this to work, the lead disagrees with me. So I am using statements like yours, apple technotes and archive emails from the cocoa list to support my claims. Thank you for the input. Randy -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/enriched Size: 2022 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://mail.python.org/pipermail/pythonmac-sig/attachments/20030721/d8cfb3ab/attachment.bin From calvin at xmission.com Tue Jul 22 00:03:12 2003 From: calvin at xmission.com (Calvin) Date: Tue Jul 22 01:03:17 2003 Subject: [Pythonmac-SIG] MySQLdb module installation, no lib? In-Reply-To: from "Joel Bender" at Jul 18, 2003 11:54:03 AM Message-ID: okay, verify that /usr/local/mysql exists (ls /usr/local) then you'll want to modify the setup.py in the MySQLdb directory that you installed. Here are the instructions from my install_procedure notes modify setup.py: include_dirs = [ '/usr/local/mysql/include' ] library_dirs = [ '/usr/local/mysql/lib' ] also: elif sys.platform[:6] == "darwin": # Mac OS X include_dirs.append('/usr/local/mysql/include') library_dirs.append('/usr/local/mysql/lib') here are the basic instructions: $ tar xfz MySQL-python-0.9.2.tar.gz $ cd MySQL-python-0.9.2 --modify setup.py as above-- $ python setup.py build $ su $ python setup.py install I keep these notes running every time a do an install, and I keep getting better at including stuff and making them readable...mostly because I have forgotten the exact things i did the last time i did a new system install. You can find my notes here: They include notes on installing pil, mysqldb, setting up apache to use python and other little bits I have to do every time I lose a disk or a clean install. some are copied from documentation, some is my own stuff, and some is emails from Bob Ippolito. There is a simple cgi included that tests that cgi works too. any questions let me know. -calvin From Jack.Jansen at cwi.nl Tue Jul 22 16:44:10 2003 From: Jack.Jansen at cwi.nl (Jack Jansen) Date: Tue Jul 22 09:45:41 2003 Subject: [Pythonmac-SIG] For your eyes only: 2.3rc1+ installer Message-ID: <92C4E759-BC4A-11D7-8007-0030655234CE@cwi.nl> Folks, I need help with the binary installer. And, of course, with 2.3 getting closer and closer I need debugging help in general. Because I don't want to wait for the 2.3rc2 release later this week I've created a binary installer for MacPython 2.3rc1+. This is the rc1 distributed in source form last week, with a few minor tweaks by me (mainly in the Package Manager and installer stuff). It would be really helpful if you could give this a workout, and report problems ASAP. If you do this real soon (i.e. today or tomorrow) there is a chance that fixes can still go into the rc2 installer later this week. Otherwise only catastrophic failures can be addressed. For the binary installer itself I've come at a dead end, so I need help. I've apparently fixed the installer so that it shows the correct sizes (i.e. if it doesn't do this rfor you: please report!), and I've tried to set it so it will only install to the root volume. However, this seems to cause problems (at least, on my system): when you open the package and you get to the disk selection stage the boot disk is selected, but it has an exclamation mark and the message "You cannot install this software on this disk.(null)". When you select another disk and go back to the boot disk the error is suddenly cleared. If someone knows a way to fix this: please let me know. Otherwise I'll have to revert to clearing the rootVolumeOnly flag, and putting a warning note in the readme file. As to other issues raised for the 2.3b2 installer: this one should *not* have _tkinter or readline anymore (they'll become available through Package Manager). Finally, the URL at which you can find the new installer: . -- Jack Jansen, , http://www.cwi.nl/~jack If I can't dance I don't want to be part of your revolution -- Emma Goldman From heafnerj at vnet.net Tue Jul 22 20:42:53 2003 From: heafnerj at vnet.net (Joe Heafner) Date: Tue Jul 22 19:43:35 2003 Subject: [Pythonmac-SIG] MacPython vs. Fink's Python In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3668EBC0-BC9E-11D7-9AEA-0003937E843E@vnet.net> Hello. Can MacPython safely coexist with Fink's Python (Python22 specifically)? Cheers, Joe Heafner ----- Use it! Be sure to complain about having to re-register every five years and about the fact that political fundraisers are exempt! From skip at pobox.com Tue Jul 22 23:06:50 2003 From: skip at pobox.com (Skip Montanaro) Date: Tue Jul 22 23:06:59 2003 Subject: [Pythonmac-SIG] MacPython vs. Fink's Python In-Reply-To: <3668EBC0-BC9E-11D7-9AEA-0003937E843E@vnet.net> References: <3668EBC0-BC9E-11D7-9AEA-0003937E843E@vnet.net> Message-ID: <16157.64458.309657.835861@montanaro.dyndns.org> Joe> Can MacPython safely coexist with Fink's Python (Python22 Joe> specifically)? Yeah, I don't see why not: % type -a python python is /Users/skip/local/bin/python python is /sw/bin/python python is /usr/local/bin/python python is /usr/bin/python % uname -a Darwin montanaro.dyndns.org 6.6 Darwin Kernel Version 6.6: Thu May 1 21:48:54 PDT 2003; root:xnu/xnu-344.34.obj~1/RELEASE_PPC Power Macintosh powerpc Skip From Jack.Jansen at cwi.nl Wed Jul 23 11:58:25 2003 From: Jack.Jansen at cwi.nl (Jack Jansen) Date: Wed Jul 23 04:55:47 2003 Subject: [Pythonmac-SIG] For your eyes only: 2.3rc1+ installer In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wednesday, Jul 23, 2003, at 03:21 Europe/Amsterdam, Willard Myers wrote: > Another FWIW: I suspect 'issues' with pythonw in 2.3rc1. The standard > examples in the PyQt 3.7 distribution act like they are being run with > python (the window appears, but is inactive). You're right: scripts run with pythonw are not in the foreground. Thanks for spotting this!!!!!! I've found the culprit (the binary inside Python.app has been renamed from "python" to "Python" to adhere to Apple's guidelines), I'm fixing and testing it right now, I'll do a new rc1+ installer later today. And a plea to everybody here: if *anything* strikes you as even slightly odd at this point, please don't hesitate but report it immediately, and preferably to the SIG mailing list too. A silly little bug like this could make us look really really stupid if it ends up in Panther. -- Jack Jansen, , http://www.cwi.nl/~jack If I can't dance I don't want to be part of your revolution -- Emma Goldman From stuart.b at commonground.com.au Wed Jul 23 20:43:57 2003 From: stuart.b at commonground.com.au (Stuart Bishop) Date: Wed Jul 23 06:38:29 2003 Subject: [Pythonmac-SIG] For your eyes only: 2.3rc1+ installer In-Reply-To: <92C4E759-BC4A-11D7-8007-0030655234CE@cwi.nl> Message-ID: <2E8319E6-BCF2-11D7-9E33-000A95A06FC6@commonground.com.au> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Tuesday, July 22, 2003, at 11:44 PM, Jack Jansen wrote: > It would be really helpful if you could give this a workout, and > report problems > ASAP. If you do this real soon (i.e. today or tomorrow) there is a > chance that fixes > can still go into the rc2 installer later this week. Otherwise only > catastrophic > failures can be addressed. Minor: The text on the first page of the installer is not scrollable. It ends with the cliffhanger 'More information on MacPython can be found at...' :-) Major: Install dies near the end. Console shows... 2003-07-23 19:40:13.113 Installer[4036] Setting package as non OSInstall Jul 23 19:40:19 belch authexec: executing /System/Library/PrivateFrameworks/Installation.framework/Resources/ runner 2003-07-23 19:40:37.223 Installer[4036] *** NSTimer ignoring exception 'NSGenericException' (reason 'The postflight script in MacPython-OSX failed. (code 127)') that raised during posting of timer with target 1e2bd90 and selector 'taskCompleted:' /Library/Frameworks/Python.framework seems to be there and intact. The only new thing in /usr/local/bin is a 0 length 'pythonw2.3' - -- Stuart Bishop http://shangri-la.dropbear.id.au/ -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.1 (Darwin) iD8DBQE/Hljjh8iUz1x5geARAhMyAKCXDUBw8fODpdE/PaKTB4flauq1vgCfcfq4 JomlzkDoyDBbTAWycZVqIIo= =lX8o -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From Jack.Jansen at cwi.nl Wed Jul 23 13:46:59 2003 From: Jack.Jansen at cwi.nl (Jack Jansen) Date: Wed Jul 23 06:44:19 2003 Subject: [Pythonmac-SIG] For your eyes only: new 2.3rc1+ installer In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wednesday, Jul 23, 2003, at 10:58 Europe/Amsterdam, Jack Jansen wrote: > I've found the culprit (the binary inside Python.app has been renamed > from "python" to "Python" to adhere to Apple's guidelines), I'm fixing > and testing it right now, I'll do a new rc1+ installer later today. A new installer is available as . It has the pythonw bug fixed, and in addition I've taken out the "root disk only" option, replacing it with a warning in the README that you should only install on your active system disk. The root-disk-only option was causing too many problems. There's still the problem (also noted here) that the welcome message doesn't have a scrollbar. I have no idea how to fix this, so comments are welcome. And if someone still has any ideas on how to fix the root-disk-only option: the old -6 installer is still available to play with, let me know about any bright ideas. -- Jack Jansen, , http://www.cwi.nl/~jack If I can't dance I don't want to be part of your revolution -- Emma Goldman From zen at shangri-la.dropbear.id.au Wed Jul 23 23:11:14 2003 From: zen at shangri-la.dropbear.id.au (Stuart Bishop) Date: Wed Jul 23 08:11:32 2003 Subject: [Pythonmac-SIG] For your eyes only: new 2.3rc1+ installer In-Reply-To: Message-ID: -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 - -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Wednesday, July 23, 2003, at 08:46 PM, Jack Jansen wrote: > A new installer is available as > 8.dmg>. It has the pythonw bug fixed, and in addition I've taken out > the "root disk only" option, replacing it with a warning in the README > that you should only install on your active system disk. The > root-disk-only option was causing too many problems. Still dying on install. Running the postflight script manually gives a better error - it is dying trying to build a symlink into /Applications/MacPython-2.3/IDLE.app/Contents/MacOS. IDLE.app looks like it was left out of the installer (so either I'm very wrong, or everyone else is installing over the top of an old version and not noticing). > There's still the problem (also noted here) that the welcome message > doesn't have a scrollbar. I have no idea how to fix this, so comments > are welcome. Make it smaller? :-) - - --Stuart Bishop http://shangri-la.dropbear.id.au/ - -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.1 (Darwin) iD8DBQE/HntSh8iUz1x5geARAnPfAJ9TeCwTGRC4gUOhy0jfQpRXZge9jgCg4t3Q YJ0Nt5E8r0uhVD1C7F00c1M= =Hhi8 - -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- - -- Stuart Bishop http://shangri-la.dropbear.id.au/ -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.1 (Darwin) iD8DBQE/Hntjh8iUz1x5geARAiraAKDhhpCD9Zg9GlkitGbx/9oq6tau4wCgw2N3 AGrswPPOHju/NmrRhXsWAKU= =IY9M -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From skip at pobox.com Wed Jul 23 09:59:41 2003 From: skip at pobox.com (Skip Montanaro) Date: Wed Jul 23 09:59:52 2003 Subject: [Pythonmac-SIG] For your eyes only: new 2.3rc1+ installer In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <16158.38093.605431.24239@montanaro.dyndns.org> Jack> A new installer is available as ... It lets me choose the installation disk, but not the installation folder. Was this done on purpose? What did I just overwrite? Skip From Jack.Jansen at cwi.nl Wed Jul 23 18:13:32 2003 From: Jack.Jansen at cwi.nl (Jack Jansen) Date: Wed Jul 23 11:10:53 2003 Subject: [Pythonmac-SIG] For your eyes only: new 2.3rc1+ installer In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <392CF196-BD20-11D7-85DF-0030655234CE@cwi.nl> On Wednesday, Jul 23, 2003, at 14:11 Europe/Amsterdam, Stuart Bishop wrote: > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 > > - -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 > > > On Wednesday, July 23, 2003, at 08:46 PM, Jack Jansen wrote: > >> A new installer is available as >> > 8.dmg>. It has the pythonw bug fixed, and in addition I've taken out >> the "root disk only" option, replacing it with a warning in the >> README that you should only install on your active system disk. The >> root-disk-only option was causing too many problems. > > Still dying on install. Running the postflight script manually > gives a better error - it is dying trying to build a symlink into > /Applications/MacPython-2.3/IDLE.app/Contents/MacOS. IDLE.app That should be a non-fatal error, are you sure it is dying from this? Could you try re-installing, and send me a copy of the log output (with verbose turned on) of the installer, plus anything interesting that shows up in the Console? (BTW: you *are* installing on your boot disk?) -- Jack Jansen, , http://www.cwi.nl/~jack If I can't dance I don't want to be part of your revolution -- Emma Goldman From Jack.Jansen at cwi.nl Wed Jul 23 18:16:35 2003 From: Jack.Jansen at cwi.nl (Jack Jansen) Date: Wed Jul 23 11:13:54 2003 Subject: [Pythonmac-SIG] For your eyes only: new 2.3rc1+ installer In-Reply-To: <16158.38093.605431.24239@montanaro.dyndns.org> Message-ID: On Wednesday, Jul 23, 2003, at 15:59 Europe/Amsterdam, Skip Montanaro wrote: > > Jack> A new installer is available as ... > > It lets me choose the installation disk, but not the installation > folder. > Was this done on purpose? What did I just overwrite? The fact that you can choose the installation disk is really a bug (the welcome message states that you should only install to your boot disk), but there's something wrong with the way we build the installer package so that setting the "install on boot disk only" flag causes more problems than it solves. For this installer you cannot really chose where to install things: all paths are pretty much fixed. I should add a note about this to the welcome message (except that that will make it go off the edge of the window even more:-). -- Jack Jansen, , http://www.cwi.nl/~jack If I can't dance I don't want to be part of your revolution -- Emma Goldman From zen at shangri-la.dropbear.id.au Thu Jul 24 02:26:26 2003 From: zen at shangri-la.dropbear.id.au (Stuart Bishop) Date: Wed Jul 23 11:26:48 2003 Subject: [Pythonmac-SIG] For your eyes only: new 2.3rc1+ installer In-Reply-To: <392CF196-BD20-11D7-85DF-0030655234CE@cwi.nl> Message-ID: <063C924E-BD22-11D7-95A9-000A95A06FC6@shangri-la.dropbear.id.au> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Thursday, July 24, 2003, at 01:13 AM, Jack Jansen wrote: > That should be a non-fatal error, are you sure it is dying from this? > Could you try re-installing, and send me a copy of the log output > (with verbose turned on) of the installer, plus anything interesting > that shows up in the Console? False alarm. Looks like I'd subtly screwed up my PATH in .MacOSX/environment.plist a few weeks ago and nothing else noticed. - -- Stuart Bishop http://shangri-la.dropbear.id.au/ -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.1 (Darwin) iD8DBQE/Hqknh8iUz1x5geARAqzCAJ48/9g/Mb7bg0WqdO/Es1mIWDrAVACffFB2 wbEhYaVaaOZMMTOA5S47W+w= =nHsx -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From joshua at joshuatompkins.us Wed Jul 23 12:26:43 2003 From: joshua at joshuatompkins.us (Joshua Tompkins) Date: Wed Jul 23 11:26:54 2003 Subject: [Pythonmac-SIG] readline2.3b1 install fails on Python2.3rc1+8 using package manager Message-ID: <002201c3512e$d26cd880$6800000a@bladeweb.com> Forgive me if this is a stupid question, I'm still pretty new to Python (and very new to Python on the Mac). I report it only because Jack said to report anything that might be out of the ordinary on the new build, and because I'm not sure if this is a bug or just something dumb that I'm doing wrong. The readline2.3b1-binary module is on the Experimental modules list on the Python.org homepage. When I try and install this module using the 2.3rc1+8 build, installation fails with the message: "Failure linking new module: /sw/lib/libreadline.4.dylib: dyld: /Applications/MacPython-2.3/" Isn't /sw where the fink install lives? I don't have fink installed... Is this error occuring because I'm trying to use a b1 module with the rc1 build? Or do I need to install fink? As I said, I'm new to all of this and I'm kind of wandering around in the dark. -joshua -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mail.python.org/pipermail/pythonmac-sig/attachments/20030723/e4e732c2/attachment.htm From skip at pobox.com Wed Jul 23 11:28:57 2003 From: skip at pobox.com (Skip Montanaro) Date: Wed Jul 23 11:29:10 2003 Subject: [Pythonmac-SIG] For your eyes only: new 2.3rc1+ installer In-Reply-To: References: <16158.38093.605431.24239@montanaro.dyndns.org> Message-ID: <16158.43449.597309.137620@montanaro.dyndns.org> Jack> I should add a note about this to the welcome message (except that Jack> that will make it go off the edge of the window even more:-). Can you add a button to allow the user to save the message to a file? Skip From marcus.h.mendenhall at vanderbilt.edu Wed Jul 23 12:06:45 2003 From: marcus.h.mendenhall at vanderbilt.edu (Marcus H. Mendenhall) Date: Wed Jul 23 12:06:50 2003 Subject: [Pythonmac-SIG] bug in Carbon.Snd In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I recently found an apparent bug in the automatically generated wrappers for Carbon.Snd. There is a name conflict over SPB, which is both declared as a type object, and as a constructor for an SPB. The type object is shadowing the SPB constructor, so it is impossible to build SPBs, and thus impossible to do much with the module. Can the be fixed easily before 2.3 gets frozen? Thanks. Marcus Mendenhall From aparente at adobe.com Wed Jul 23 10:07:45 2003 From: aparente at adobe.com (Alexandre Parenteau) Date: Wed Jul 23 12:08:58 2003 Subject: [Pythonmac-SIG] For your eyes only: new 2.3rc1+ installer In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.2.20030723085658.01ce4390@mailsj.corp.adobe.com> Jack, I don't know the severity, but just in case, here is an annoying issue I run into yesterday : the different behavior of FSSpec for 2.2 CFM and 2.3 Mach-O. One could argue that FSSpec is not necessary anymore, but it is still very much alive as soon as you talk AppleEvents: think CodeWarrior.make(projectfss, xmfss) for example. In 2.2 CFM, when you create a FSSpec from a path, the last component doesn't have to exist in order for FSSpec to return a valid spec. My Root disk is named "MacOSX", and you'll notice I can create without any problem FSSpec("MacOSX:dummy") even though "dummy" doesn't exist. Python 2.2.2 (#138, Oct 25 2002, 23:10:42) [CW CARBON GUSI2 THREADS GC] on mac Type "copyright", "credits" or "license" for more information. >>> import macfs >>> macfs.FSSpec("MacOSX") FSSpec((-100, 2664524, 'MacOSX')) >>> macfs.FSSpec("MacOSX:dummy") FSSpec((-100, 2, 'dummy')) >>> macfs.FSSpec("MacOSX:dummy:") FSSpec((-100, 2, 'dummy')) >>> macfs.FSSpec("MacOSX:dummy:dummy2") Traceback (most recent call last): File "", line 1, in ? MacOS.Error: (-120, 'Directory not found') >>> Now this is all different with 2.3. I have no practical way to create a FSSpec pointing on a file that doesn't exist yet: [GCC 3.1 20020420 (prerelease)] on darwin Type "help", "copyright", "credits" or "license" for more information. >>> import Carbon.File >>> Carbon.File.FSSpec("/") Carbon.File.FSSpec((-100, 1, 'MacOSX')) >>> Carbon.File.FSSpec("/dummy") Traceback (most recent call last): File "", line 1, in ? MacOS.Error: (-43, 'File not found') >>> Am I making myself clear ? Am I missing something obvious ? Looking at the code I believe it might be a subtle Carbon difference of MakeFSSpec when involked from CFM or Mach-O, or may be not. I remember the GUSI code (GUSIFileSpec.cpp) gets into all sort of troubles in order to unfold manually these components, resolving aliases at the same time... Did the 2.2 code by any chance used GUSIFileSpec ? (I would not know, I don't have the 2.2 source code anymore). Sorry if it is all obscure. For now I'm living by creating an empty file and then removing it after the FSSpec is computed. Regards, alex. At 12:46 PM 7/23/2003 +0200, Jack Jansen wrote: >On Wednesday, Jul 23, 2003, at 10:58 Europe/Amsterdam, Jack Jansen >wrote: >>I've found the culprit (the binary inside Python.app has been renamed >>from "python" to "Python" to adhere to Apple's guidelines), I'm fixing >>and testing it right now, I'll do a new rc1+ installer later today. > >A new installer is available as >. >It has the pythonw bug fixed, and in addition I've taken out >the "root disk only" option, replacing it with a warning in the README >that you should only install on your active system disk. The >root-disk-only option was causing too many problems. > >There's still the problem (also noted here) that the welcome message >doesn't have a scrollbar. I have no idea how to fix this, so comments >are welcome. And if someone still has any ideas on how to fix the >root-disk-only option: the old -6 installer is still available to play >with, let me know about any bright ideas. >-- >Jack Jansen, , http://www.cwi.nl/~jack >If I can't dance I don't want to be part of your revolution -- Emma >Goldman > > >_______________________________________________ >Pythonmac-SIG maillist - Pythonmac-SIG@python.org >http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pythonmac-sig From altis at semi-retired.com Wed Jul 23 12:02:03 2003 From: altis at semi-retired.com (Kevin Altis) Date: Wed Jul 23 13:55:36 2003 Subject: [Pythonmac-SIG] 2.3 PythonLauncher In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I did a fresh install on a new box and it looks like PythonLauncher is set to use /usr/local/bin/pythonw for .py and .pyw files by default which is good. However, it is also set to launch scripts in a Terminal window which doesn't seem to make much sense to me. If you are a programmer and need to see debug output it will be in the Console or you can just run from the Terminal and avoid PythonLauncher. I'm assuming PythonLauncher still needs to be used from the Finder because otherwise there is no way to get multiple Python scripts running? I don't have Panther so another thing I'm wondering about is whether python will be put in /usr/local/bin or /usr/bin in which case the default path for PythonLauncher might need to be changed. ka From brian_l at mac.com Wed Jul 23 12:11:14 2003 From: brian_l at mac.com (Brian Lenihan) Date: Wed Jul 23 14:11:22 2003 Subject: [Pythonmac-SIG] 2.3 PythonLauncher In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <0BE64FE9-BD39-11D7-9E0C-000A956B6574@mac.com> On Wednesday, July 23, 2003, at 11:02 AM, Kevin Altis wrote: > I don't have Panther so another thing I'm wondering about is whether > python > will be put in /usr/local/bin or /usr/bin in which case the default > path for > PythonLauncher might need to be changed. Nope. Apple has dibs on /usr/bin, /System/Library/Frameworks, /Developer/Applications, as well as some unmentionables in /Library/Python and /Developer/Examples From ashearer at lifespan.org Wed Jul 23 15:40:52 2003 From: ashearer at lifespan.org (Andrew Shearer) Date: Wed Jul 23 14:41:13 2003 Subject: [Pythonmac-SIG] For your eyes only: new 2.3rc1+ installer In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <2FF60172-BD3D-11D7-B00E-000393B3AC06@lifespan.org> Thanks, Jack, for all the hard work on this! This is looking to be a great release. The installer log had some warnings near the beginning: Failed to write location '/' to /tmp/.MacPython-OSX.pkg.1582.upgrade/Receipts/MacPython-OSX.pkg/ Contents/Resources/MacPython-OSX.loc Not removing /./Applications/MacPython-2.3/IDLE.app/Contents/Resources/idlelib because it is not empty. Not removing /./Applications/MacPython-2.3/IDLE.app/Contents/Resources because it is not empty. Not removing /./Applications/MacPython-2.3/IDLE.app/Contents because it is not empty. Not removing /./Applications/MacPython-2.3/IDLE.app because it is not empty. Not removing /./Applications/MacPython-2.3/Extras/Demo/stdwin because it is not empty. These are probably minor, but I'm not sure how to interpret the first line; I wonder if is has anything to do with my root being non-writable (and therefore sendmail-friendly), though that still doesn't match the message. The "not removing" warnings aren't a problem now, but may cause future installers to leave an outdated file around if it has been renamed or deleted in the newer Python version. An idea: the post-install script spends a while compiling the "test" directory, which isn't necessary for most users, so it could be skipped. As for the truncated Installer ReadMe, saving as RTF rather than hard-wrapped plain text may help. I don't know if this happened to anyone else, but when I launched the installer, I saw about several blank lines at the top, and a couple of the lines below were strangely wrapped (meaning the original was wrapped at a larger width than the Installer window's). Fixing those would gain about seven lines. On top of that we could make the text smaller if necessary. I'm sure the text will change before 2.3 final, but here's another draft with light edits to punctuation anyway. (Let me know if I should submit an RTF version somewhere.) It would be nice if we could find out for sure if the installer does work in the Panther preview so we could drop the Panther clause. -begin This package will install MacPython 2.3rc1+ for Mac OS X 10.2. It will not work on Mac OS X 10.1 and earlier, while installation on the Panther preview may work. Installation requires approximately 20 MB of disk space. Ignore the message that it will take zero bytes. You must install onto your current boot disk (even though the installer does not enforce this) otherwise MacPython will not work. MacPython consists of the Python programming language interpreter, plus a set of Macintosh programs to allow easy access to it (an integrated development environment, a Python extension package manager) and a set of pre-built extension modules that open up specific Macintosh technologies to Python programs (Carbon, AppleScript, QuickTime, and more). The installer places applications in a MacPython-2.3 subfolder of your Applications folder, along with command-line tools in /usr/local/bin, and the underlying machinery in /Library/Frameworks/Python.framework. The PythonIDE application has a Help command that gets you started quickly with MacPython and contains references to other documentation. For more information on MacPython, see http://www.cwi.nl/~jack/macpython.html. For more information on Python in general, see http://www.python.org. -end As far as actual functionality, it's working well so far. On Wednesday, July 23, 2003, at 11:29 AM, pythonmac-sig-request@python.org wrote: > From: Skip Montanaro > > Jack> I should add a note about this to the welcome message > (except that > Jack> that will make it go off the edge of the window even more:-). > > Can you add a button to allow the user to save the message to a file? -- Andrew Shearer Medical Computing, Lifespan From kevino at tulane.edu Wed Jul 23 14:18:15 2003 From: kevino at tulane.edu (Kevin Ollivier) Date: Wed Jul 23 16:21:14 2003 Subject: [Pythonmac-SIG] For your eyes only: new 2.3rc1+ installer In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wednesday, July 23, 2003, at 03:46 AM, Jack Jansen wrote: > > On Wednesday, Jul 23, 2003, at 10:58 Europe/Amsterdam, Jack Jansen > wrote: >> I've found the culprit (the binary inside Python.app has been renamed >> from "python" to "Python" to adhere to Apple's guidelines), I'm >> fixing and testing it right now, I'll do a new rc1+ installer later >> today. > > A new installer is available as > 8.dmg>. It has the pythonw bug fixed, and in addition I've taken out > the "root disk only" option, replacing it with a warning in the README > that you should only install on your active system disk. The > root-disk-only option was causing too many problems. > > There's still the problem (also noted here) that the welcome message > doesn't have a scrollbar. I have no idea how to fix this, so comments > are welcome. And if someone still has any ideas on how to fix the > root-disk-only option: the old -6 installer is still available to play > with, let me know about any bright ideas. Just tried the installer and everything worked fine for me. I was able to load up and run my wxPython app via pythonw, and I updated some packages from the PM without problems. BTW, I did notice one minor bug - if you have a package installed, but it is old, after updating it via PM the status does not update (i.e. it doesn't change from 'old' to 'yes'). It does, however, update when you restart PM so it's not a big issue. With regards to the welcome message - have you tried using RTF format for the message? That seems to be Apple's preferred format for installer messages. Thanks to bundlebuilder.py I don't need to write installers anymore =), but I never had any problems using RTF format. Thanks, Kevin From hhakula at math.hut.fi Wed Jul 23 20:23:02 2003 From: hhakula at math.hut.fi (Harri Hakula) Date: Wed Jul 23 16:35:03 2003 Subject: [Pythonmac-SIG] For your eyes only: new 2.3rc1+ installer In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I had no problems on a machine with only the default python (/usr/bin/python) installed (my wife's PBG4, OSX10.2.6). Having first installed with rc1plus6, I simply applied rc1plus-8. Cheers, Harri -- Harri Hakula Institute of Mathematics Helsinki University of Technology P.O.Box 1100 FIN-02015 HUT From Jack.Jansen at cwi.nl Wed Jul 23 23:40:13 2003 From: Jack.Jansen at cwi.nl (Jack Jansen) Date: Wed Jul 23 16:40:27 2003 Subject: [Pythonmac-SIG] readline2.3b1 install fails on Python2.3rc1+8 using package manager In-Reply-To: <002201c3512e$d26cd880$6800000a@bladeweb.com> Message-ID: On woensdag, jul 23, 2003, at 17:26 Europe/Amsterdam, Joshua Tompkins wrote: > Forgive me if this is a stupid question, I'm still pretty new to > Python (and very new to Python on the Mac).? I report it only because > Jack said to report anything that might be out of the ordinary on the > new build, and because I'm not sure if this is a bug or just something > dumb that I'm doing wrong. > ? > The readline2.3b1-binary module is on the Experimental modules list on > the Python.org homepage.? When I try and install this module using the > 2.3rc1+8 build, installation fails There are no stupid questions, only stupid answers:-) Seriously: thanks for the report! In this specific case I already knew about the problem (the "experimental" database is currently nothing more than the entries in database used for 2.3b1 that I didn't get around to testing yet). But: I'd rather get 10 reports for things I already know than miss one for something I don't yet know. I will try to get most items from the experimental database into the real one over the next 2 or 3 days. -- - Jack Jansen http://www.cwi.nl/~jack - - If I can't dance I don't want to be part of your revolution -- Emma Goldman - From Jack.Jansen at cwi.nl Wed Jul 23 23:42:26 2003 From: Jack.Jansen at cwi.nl (Jack Jansen) Date: Wed Jul 23 16:42:33 2003 Subject: [Pythonmac-SIG] bug in Carbon.Snd In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <2BB094BC-BD4E-11D7-8C34-000A27B19B96@cwi.nl> On woensdag, jul 23, 2003, at 18:06 Europe/Amsterdam, Marcus H. Mendenhall wrote: > I recently found an apparent bug in the automatically generated > wrappers for Carbon.Snd. There is a name conflict over SPB, which is > both declared as a type object, and as a constructor for an SPB. The > type object is shadowing the SPB constructor, so it is impossible to > build SPBs, and thus impossible to do much with the module. Can the > be fixed easily before 2.3 gets frozen? Please file a bug report and I will try, if I deem the mod safe enough. Otherwise It'll be done for 2.3.1. -- - Jack Jansen http://www.cwi.nl/~jack - - If I can't dance I don't want to be part of your revolution -- Emma Goldman - From Jack.Jansen at cwi.nl Wed Jul 23 23:51:05 2003 From: Jack.Jansen at cwi.nl (Jack Jansen) Date: Wed Jul 23 16:51:15 2003 Subject: [Pythonmac-SIG] For your eyes only: new 2.3rc1+ installer In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.2.20030723085658.01ce4390@mailsj.corp.adobe.com> Message-ID: <60A0CE7D-BD4F-11D7-8C34-000A27B19B96@cwi.nl> On woensdag, jul 23, 2003, at 18:07 Europe/Amsterdam, Alexandre Parenteau wrote: > Jack, > > I don't know the severity, but just in case, here is an annoying issue > I run into yesterday : the different behavior of FSSpec for 2.2 CFM > and 2.3 Mach-O. > > One could argue that FSSpec is not necessary anymore, but it is still > very much alive as soon as you talk AppleEvents: think > CodeWarrior.make(projectfss, xmfss) for example. > > In 2.2 CFM, when you create a FSSpec from a path, the last component > doesn't have to exist in order for FSSpec to return a valid spec. This is a known bug (#706592) that won't be fixed for 2.3. If you want to help: please do so! Suggestions appended to the bug report (or, better, a patch) will be gracefully accepted. The problem is that, depending on your view, this is either (a) very hard or (b) impossible. Very hard, because you cannot simply take the last bit of the pathname and stuff that into the FSSpec: pathnames are utf8, FSSpecs are MacRoman. And you have to convert : to /. Impossible, because you don't really know about the MacRoman bit, you'd really have to ask the filesystem about the encoding for this specific disk. And it is truly impossible if the last pathname component is more than 31 bytes. For example code of the (a) variation check EasyDialogs.AskFileForSave() and think of converting that code from Python to C. Actually, there might be a (c): possible but Jack overlooked something. If there's a way to go straight from pathnames to aliases, for instance, or something similar. -- - Jack Jansen http://www.cwi.nl/~jack - - If I can't dance I don't want to be part of your revolution -- Emma Goldman - From altis at semi-retired.com Wed Jul 23 15:00:03 2003 From: altis at semi-retired.com (Kevin Altis) Date: Wed Jul 23 16:53:32 2003 Subject: [Pythonmac-SIG] Python 2.3 benchmark request Message-ID: Has anyone posted benchmark comparisons of various Macs running 2.3? If not, maybe we could do that on a wiki page to simplify people adding some numbers. In particular, I'm wondering about the differences between the various PowerBooks. I'm considering getting a 12" or 15" PB to replace my 733MHz G4 tower. I realize that neither pystone or pybench measure disk performance and video I/O but I am curious about the impact of the L3 cache. The simplistic test would just be to use pystone. >>> from test import pystone >>> pystone.main() A more elaborate benchmark is to use pybench 1.0: http://www.egenix.com/files/python/Introduction.html#page2 ka From Jack.Jansen at cwi.nl Thu Jul 24 00:01:29 2003 From: Jack.Jansen at cwi.nl (Jack Jansen) Date: Wed Jul 23 17:01:40 2003 Subject: [Pythonmac-SIG] 2.3 PythonLauncher In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On woensdag, jul 23, 2003, at 20:02 Europe/Amsterdam, Kevin Altis wrote: > I did a fresh install on a new box and it looks like PythonLauncher is > set > to use /usr/local/bin/pythonw for .py and .pyw files by default which > is > good. However, it is also set to launch scripts in a Terminal window > which > doesn't seem to make much sense to me. If you are a programmer and > need to > see debug output it will be in the Console or you can just run from the > Terminal and avoid PythonLauncher. This is the result of a discussion here a couple of months ago. The outcome of that was that if your script is "production-ready" you should turn it into an applet. When you're running a windowing script by double-clicking you are probably still in the debugging phase. This sounded plausible enough to me that I changed the default for .pyw to also open a console window. > > I'm assuming PythonLauncher still needs to be used from the Finder > because > otherwise there is no way to get multiple Python scripts running? Correct. (Unless you run them from the terminal window, of course). > I don't have Panther so another thing I'm wondering about is whether > python > will be put in /usr/local/bin or /usr/bin in which case the default > path for > PythonLauncher might need to be changed. Good point! I will check this straightaway and pass it on to the people at Apple if it isn't. -- - Jack Jansen http://www.cwi.nl/~jack - - If I can't dance I don't want to be part of your revolution -- Emma Goldman - From cjl at physics.otago.ac.nz Thu Jul 24 10:00:42 2003 From: cjl at physics.otago.ac.nz (Chris Lee) Date: Wed Jul 23 17:02:06 2003 Subject: [Pythonmac-SIG] For your eyes only: new 2.3rc1+ installer In-Reply-To: Message-ID: You probably already know this but the package manager doesn't manage to get through firewalls. Also in my install the help pages come up blank. Cheers Chris On Wednesday, July 23, 2003, at 10:46 PM, Jack Jansen wrote: > > On Wednesday, Jul 23, 2003, at 10:58 Europe/Amsterdam, Jack Jansen > wrote: >> I've found the culprit (the binary inside Python.app has been renamed >> from "python" to "Python" to adhere to Apple's guidelines), I'm >> fixing and testing it right now, I'll do a new rc1+ installer later >> today. > > A new installer is available as > 8.dmg>. It has the pythonw bug fixed, and in addition I've taken out > the "root disk only" option, replacing it with a warning in the README > that you should only install on your active system disk. The > root-disk-only option was causing too many problems. > > There's still the problem (also noted here) that the welcome message > doesn't have a scrollbar. I have no idea how to fix this, so comments > are welcome. And if someone still has any ideas on how to fix the > root-disk-only option: the old -6 installer is still available to play > with, let me know about any bright ideas. > -- > Jack Jansen, , http://www.cwi.nl/~jack > If I can't dance I don't want to be part of your revolution -- Emma > Goldman > > > _______________________________________________ > Pythonmac-SIG maillist - Pythonmac-SIG@python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pythonmac-sig > > ################################# Chris Lee Physics Department Otago University PO Box 56 Dunedin New Zealand Phone ++64 3 479 7749 Fax ++64 3 479 0964 ################################# From michael at osafoundation.org Wed Jul 23 15:03:32 2003 From: michael at osafoundation.org (Michael Toy) Date: Wed Jul 23 17:03:40 2003 Subject: [Pythonmac-SIG] Python 2.3 benchmark request In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1DC6E7AE-BD51-11D7-BAF4-000393DBC336@osafoundation.org> On Wednesday, July 23, 2003, at 02:00 PM, Kevin Altis wrote: > Has anyone posted benchmark comparisons of various Macs running 2.3? > If not, > maybe we could do that on a wiki page to simplify people adding some > numbers. In particular, I'm wondering about the differences between the > various PowerBooks. I'm considering getting a 12" or 15" PB to replace > my > 733MHz G4 tower. I realize that neither pystone or pybench measure disk > performance and video I/O but I am curious about the impact of the L3 > cache. > > The simplistic test would just be to use pystone. > >>>> from test import pystone >>>> pystone.main() 1ghz 15" pb -- 14880 pystones/sec (avg of three runs) From michael at osafoundation.org Wed Jul 23 15:05:54 2003 From: michael at osafoundation.org (Michael Toy) Date: Wed Jul 23 17:06:02 2003 Subject: [Pythonmac-SIG] Python 2.3 benchmark request (update) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <7267932E-BD51-11D7-8A50-000393DBC336@osafoundation.org> 1ghz 15" pb - 15337 pystones sec (i quit all open apps, number went up) From robin at alldunn.com Wed Jul 23 15:06:00 2003 From: robin at alldunn.com (Robin Dunn) Date: Wed Jul 23 17:06:08 2003 Subject: [Pythonmac-SIG] For your eyes only: new 2.3rc1+ installer In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3F1EF8B8.2020103@alldunn.com> Jack Jansen wrote: > > The fact that you can choose the installation disk is really a bug > (the welcome message states that you should only install to your boot > disk), but there's something wrong with the way we build the > installer package so that setting the "install on boot disk only" > flag causes more problems than it solves. I had this trouble too with the installer before you took it over. It worked fine on my box but not on others. I also couldn' tfind any answers about it so I also ended up not setting the flag... -- Robin Dunn Software Craftsman http://wxPython.org Java give you jitters? Relax with wxPython! From skip at pobox.com Wed Jul 23 17:06:13 2003 From: skip at pobox.com (Skip Montanaro) Date: Wed Jul 23 17:06:33 2003 Subject: [Pythonmac-SIG] Python 2.3 benchmark request In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <16158.63685.509700.414248@montanaro.dyndns.org> Kevin> I'm considering getting a 12" or 15" PB to replace my 733MHz G4 Kevin> tower. I realize that neither pystone or pybench measure disk Kevin> performance and video I/O but I am curious about the impact of Kevin> the L3 cache. I can't comment quantitatively about comparative performance (though I'd be happy to post pybench and pystone numbers when I have a few moments), but I'm convinced the convenience of a laptop overshadows performance issues in most situations. My Powerbook (15", 800MHz) is "fast enough". I use it in preference to the 2.something GHz P4 Windows box my current employer provided for me. For me, the convenience of being able to take my computing environment just about anywhere seals the deal. (At times I'm sure my wife would wish it had come with a large, permanently attached boat anchor, however. ;-) Skip From skip at pobox.com Wed Jul 23 17:09:48 2003 From: skip at pobox.com (Skip Montanaro) Date: Wed Jul 23 17:10:03 2003 Subject: [Pythonmac-SIG] Python 2.3 benchmark request (update) In-Reply-To: <7267932E-BD51-11D7-8A50-000393DBC336@osafoundation.org> References: <7267932E-BD51-11D7-8A50-000393DBC336@osafoundation.org> Message-ID: <16158.63900.886705.669674@montanaro.dyndns.org> Michael> 1ghz 15" pb - 15337 pystones sec Michael> (i quit all open apps, number went up) Probably ought to be explicit about your build as well: version, and whether or not you used a framework build (would that matter?). Skip From Jack.Jansen at cwi.nl Thu Jul 24 00:55:47 2003 From: Jack.Jansen at cwi.nl (Jack Jansen) Date: Wed Jul 23 17:55:58 2003 Subject: [Pythonmac-SIG] For your eyes only: new 2.3rc1+ installer In-Reply-To: <3F1EF8B8.2020103@alldunn.com> Message-ID: <6AAEA200-BD58-11D7-A35F-000A27B19B96@cwi.nl> [Barry, I'm cc'ing you on this to get your opinion on fixing the Mac binary distribution infrastructure after 2.3 source is done] On woensdag, jul 23, 2003, at 23:06 Europe/Amsterdam, Robin Dunn wrote: > Jack Jansen wrote: >> The fact that you can choose the installation disk is really a bug >> (the welcome message states that you should only install to your boot >> disk), but there's something wrong with the way we build the >> installer package so that setting the "install on boot disk only" >> flag causes more problems than it solves. > > I had this trouble too with the installer before you took it over. It > worked fine on my box but not on others. I also couldn' tfind any > answers about it so I also ended up not setting the flag... It must be something in the buildpkg.py module that is simply wrong. The code was originally donated by Dinu Gherman for 10.1 (or maybe even 10.0), who reverse-engineered the package format while writing it. We can do one of three things: 1. Leave it as-is. 2. Try to debug what is going on, and how we should work around this. 3. Switch to using PackageMaker, but it appears not to be scriptable:-( Note that 2 and 3 are real options, as the binary installer could be considered not to be in the critical path for the 2.3 source distribution, which is the one that absolutely has to be done before August 1. The downside of fixing things in the binary installer after the 2.3 source distribution goes out is that it means that it is impossible to create an identical binary distribution given only a source distribution. But I think this is already the case for the Windows binary distribution too, and it's definitely true for the MacPython-OS9 binary distribution. And the only reason I can think of why other people would dream of doing a binary distribution would be that I get hit by a tram, in which case this will be the least of my worries:-) Opinions? -- - Jack Jansen http://www.cwi.nl/~jack - - If I can't dance I don't want to be part of your revolution -- Emma Goldman - From Jack.Jansen at cwi.nl Thu Jul 24 01:02:42 2003 From: Jack.Jansen at cwi.nl (Jack Jansen) Date: Wed Jul 23 18:02:48 2003 Subject: [Pythonmac-SIG] For your eyes only: new 2.3rc1+ installer In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <622EEC81-BD59-11D7-A35F-000A27B19B96@cwi.nl> On woensdag, jul 23, 2003, at 23:00 Europe/Amsterdam, Chris Lee wrote: > You probably already know this but the package manager doesn't manage > to get through firewalls. No, I didn't know this! Code was added before 2.3b1 to make it go through firewalls (basically using urllib2 in stead of urllib, which should be firewall-aware. This definitely needs to be fixed, or at the very least warned about. What are the symptoms you see? And, for the rest of the crowd here: is anyone having success using PM behind a firewall? Was there anything special you needed to do? > Also in my install the help pages come up blank. This also is news to me. There is one thing you need to do (which is obscurely mentioned in the installer welcome message): you need to start the IDE once so it can register the help book. Does the "MacPython Help" show up in your Help Viewer bookshelf? -- - Jack Jansen http://www.cwi.nl/~jack - - If I can't dance I don't want to be part of your revolution -- Emma Goldman - From managan at llnl.gov Wed Jul 23 16:27:44 2003 From: managan at llnl.gov (Rob Managan) Date: Wed Jul 23 18:28:26 2003 Subject: [Pythonmac-SIG] For your eyes only: new 2.3rc1+ installer In-Reply-To: <622EEC81-BD59-11D7-A35F-000A27B19B96@cwi.nl> References: <622EEC81-BD59-11D7-A35F-000A27B19B96@cwi.nl> Message-ID: >On woensdag, jul 23, 2003, at 23:00 Europe/Amsterdam, Chris Lee wrote: > >>You probably already know this but the package manager doesn't >>manage to get through firewalls. > >No, I didn't know this! Code was added before 2.3b1 to make it go >through firewalls (basically using urllib2 in stead of urllib, which >should be firewall-aware. This definitely needs to be fixed, or at >the very least warned about. > >What are the symptoms you see? > >And, for the rest of the crowd here: is anyone having success using >PM behind a firewall? Was there anything special you needed to do? We have a firewall and I have no problems using PM to install. >> Also in my install the help pages come up blank. > >This also is news to me. There is one thing you need to do (which is >obscurely mentioned in the installer welcome message): you need to >start the IDE once so it can register the help book. > >Does the "MacPython Help" show up in your Help Viewer bookshelf? >-- No trouble with Help. The macPython Help is there also -- *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-**-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*- Rob Managan email managan at llnl.gov LLNL phone: 925-423-0903 P.O. Box 808, L-095 FAX: 925-422-3389 Livermore, CA 94551-0808 From bob at redivi.com Wed Jul 23 19:39:48 2003 From: bob at redivi.com (Bob Ippolito) Date: Wed Jul 23 18:39:56 2003 Subject: [Pythonmac-SIG] 2.3 PythonLauncher In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <9116E17C-BD5E-11D7-9428-000A95686CD8@redivi.com> On Wednesday, Jul 23, 2003, at 17:01 America/New_York, Jack Jansen wrote: > > On woensdag, jul 23, 2003, at 20:02 Europe/Amsterdam, Kevin Altis > wrote: > >> I did a fresh install on a new box and it looks like PythonLauncher >> is set >> to use /usr/local/bin/pythonw for .py and .pyw files by default which >> is >> good. However, it is also set to launch scripts in a Terminal window >> which >> doesn't seem to make much sense to me. If you are a programmer and >> need to >> see debug output it will be in the Console or you can just run from >> the >> Terminal and avoid PythonLauncher. > > This is the result of a discussion here a couple of months ago. The > outcome of > that was that if your script is "production-ready" you should turn it > into > an applet. When you're running a windowing script by double-clicking > you are > probably still in the debugging phase. This sounded plausible enough > to me > that I changed the default for .pyw to also open a console window. >> >> I'm assuming PythonLauncher still needs to be used from the Finder >> because >> otherwise there is no way to get multiple Python scripts running? > > Correct. (Unless you run them from the terminal window, of course). > >> I don't have Panther so another thing I'm wondering about is whether >> python >> will be put in /usr/local/bin or /usr/bin in which case the default >> path for >> PythonLauncher might need to be changed. > > Good point! I will check this straightaway and pass it on to the > people at Apple > if it isn't. The Panther DP that was built for WWDC does indeed put python in /usr/bin and /System/Library/Frameworks, as one would expect from Apple. -bob From cjl at physics.otago.ac.nz Thu Jul 24 11:50:52 2003 From: cjl at physics.otago.ac.nz (Chris Lee) Date: Wed Jul 23 18:52:24 2003 Subject: [Pythonmac-SIG] For your eyes only: new 2.3rc1+ installer In-Reply-To: <622EEC81-BD59-11D7-A35F-000A27B19B96@cwi.nl> Message-ID: <1CA69756-BD60-11D7-904D-0003937807FC@physics.otago.ac.nz> On Thursday, July 24, 2003, at 10:02 AM, Jack Jansen wrote: > > On woensdag, jul 23, 2003, at 23:00 Europe/Amsterdam, Chris Lee wrote: > >> You probably already know this but the package manager doesn't manage >> to get through firewalls. > > No, I didn't know this! Code was added before 2.3b1 to make it go > through firewalls (basically using urllib2 in stead of urllib, which > should be firewall-aware. This definitely needs to be fixed, or at the > very least warned about. > > What are the symptoms you see? The error message is "Cannot open http://www.python.org/packman/version-0.3/darwin-6.6- Power_Macintosh.plist: " It appears that the help page turns up now so that is good. The fire wall is one that requires authentications and for what it is worth I have never managed to fink to work with it either (this doesn't mean a lot though since I am not really a power user and could quite easily be getting things wrong). > > And, for the rest of the crowd here: is anyone having success using PM > behind a firewall? Was there anything special you needed to do? > >> Also in my install the help pages come up blank. > > This also is news to me. There is one thing you need to do (which is > obscurely mentioned in the installer welcome message): you need to > start the IDE once so it can register the help book. That fixed it. Teach me for skim reading won't it > > Does the "MacPython Help" show up in your Help Viewer bookshelf? Does now :) > -- > - Jack Jansen > http://www.cwi.nl/~jack - > - If I can't dance I don't want to be part of your revolution -- Emma > Goldman - > > > _______________________________________________ > Pythonmac-SIG maillist - Pythonmac-SIG@python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pythonmac-sig > > ################################# Chris Lee Physics Department Otago University PO Box 56 Dunedin New Zealand Phone ++64 3 479 7749 Fax ++64 3 479 0964 ################################# From zen at shangri-la.dropbear.id.au Thu Jul 24 12:00:16 2003 From: zen at shangri-la.dropbear.id.au (Stuart Bishop) Date: Wed Jul 23 21:00:38 2003 Subject: [Pythonmac-SIG] For your eyes only: new 2.3rc1+ installer In-Reply-To: <1CA69756-BD60-11D7-904D-0003937807FC@physics.otago.ac.nz> Message-ID: <305B1C0F-BD72-11D7-95A9-000A95A06FC6@shangri-la.dropbear.id.au> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Thursday, July 24, 2003, at 08:50 AM, Chris Lee wrote: > The error message is "Cannot open > http://www.python.org/packman/version-0.3/darwin-6.6- > Power_Macintosh.plist: " > > It appears that the help page turns up now so that is good. The fire > wall is one that requires authentications and for what it is worth I > have never managed to fink to work with it either (this doesn't mean a > lot though since I am not really a power user and could quite easily > be getting things wrong). Try this from a command line (all one line): env http_proxy=http://myusername:mypassword@my.proxy.name.com:3128 /Applications/MacPython-2.3/PackageManager.app/Contents/MacOS/ PackageManager (where 3128 is the port number of your http proxy) - -- Stuart Bishop http://shangri-la.dropbear.id.au/ -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.1 (Darwin) iD8DBQE/Hy+lh8iUz1x5geARAnfuAKCgTFQjzMXIZ+jiTZpKYjChCo4izQCgtLtT HX3zC7MkonHoJ2f5yXiWETc= =zA3l -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From cjl at physics.otago.ac.nz Thu Jul 24 14:16:15 2003 From: cjl at physics.otago.ac.nz (Chris Lee) Date: Wed Jul 23 21:17:40 2003 Subject: [Pythonmac-SIG] For your eyes only: new 2.3rc1+ installer In-Reply-To: <305B1C0F-BD72-11D7-95A9-000A95A06FC6@shangri-la.dropbear.id.au> Message-ID: <6C299041-BD74-11D7-904D-0003937807FC@physics.otago.ac.nz> Oddly enough that gave me the hint I needed to get fink working (which makes me a happy man...) but didn't work with the package manager (same error) I take it from this that the shell doesn't get and set the http_proxy variable from the system preferences? Cheers Chris On Thursday, July 24, 2003, at 01:00 PM, Stuart Bishop wrote: > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 > > > On Thursday, July 24, 2003, at 08:50 AM, Chris Lee wrote: > >> The error message is "Cannot open >> http://www.python.org/packman/version-0.3/darwin-6.6- >> Power_Macintosh.plist: " >> >> It appears that the help page turns up now so that is good. The fire >> wall is one that requires authentications and for what it is worth I >> have never managed to fink to work with it either (this doesn't mean >> a lot though since I am not really a power user and could quite >> easily be getting things wrong). > > Try this from a command line (all one line): > > env http_proxy=http://myusername:mypassword@my.proxy.name.com:3128 > /Applications/MacPython-2.3/PackageManager.app/Contents/MacOS/ > PackageManager > > (where 3128 is the port number of your http proxy) > > > - --Stuart Bishop > http://shangri-la.dropbear.id.au/ > > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- > Version: GnuPG v1.2.1 (Darwin) > > iD8DBQE/Hy+lh8iUz1x5geARAnfuAKCgTFQjzMXIZ+jiTZpKYjChCo4izQCgtLtT > HX3zC7MkonHoJ2f5yXiWETc= > =zA3l > -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- > > > _______________________________________________ > Pythonmac-SIG maillist - Pythonmac-SIG@python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pythonmac-sig > > ################################# Chris Lee Physics Department Otago University PO Box 56 Dunedin New Zealand Phone ++64 3 479 7749 Fax ++64 3 479 0964 ################################# From aparente at adobe.com Wed Jul 23 19:36:14 2003 From: aparente at adobe.com (Alexandre Parenteau) Date: Wed Jul 23 21:38:36 2003 Subject: [Pythonmac-SIG] For your eyes only: new 2.3rc1+ installer In-Reply-To: <6C299041-BD74-11D7-904D-0003937807FC@physics.otago.ac.nz> References: <305B1C0F-BD72-11D7-95A9-000A95A06FC6@shangri-la.dropbear.id.au> Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.2.20030723183108.00b74288@mailsj.corp.adobe.com> Hi, urllib2 doesn't automatically detect the http proxy, I don't think. I don't know what Jack was referring to. May be try to add these lines in PackageManager.py after you see where urllib2 is imported: # build a new opener that adds proxy authentication proxy_support = urllib2.ProxyHandler({"http" : "http://http-proxy:8080"}) opener = urllib2.build_opener(proxy_support) # install it urllib2.install_opener(opener) That would be a nice option to add though. alex. At 01:16 PM 7/24/2003 +1200, Chris Lee wrote: >Oddly enough that gave me the hint I needed to get fink working (which >makes me a happy man...) but didn't work with the package manager (same >error) > >I take it from this that the shell doesn't get and set the http_proxy >variable from the system preferences? > >Cheers >Chris > >On Thursday, July 24, 2003, at 01:00 PM, Stuart Bishop wrote: > >>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- >>Hash: SHA1 >> >> >>On Thursday, July 24, 2003, at 08:50 AM, Chris Lee wrote: >> >>>The error message is "Cannot open >>>http://www.python.org/packman/version-0.3/darwin-6.6- >>>Power_Macintosh.plist: " >>> >>>It appears that the help page turns up now so that is good. The fire >>>wall is one that requires authentications and for what it is worth I >>>have never managed to fink to work with it either (this doesn't mean >>>a lot though since I am not really a power user and could quite >>>easily be getting things wrong). >> >>Try this from a command line (all one line): >> >>env http_proxy=http://myusername:mypassword@my.proxy.name.com:3128 >>/Applications/MacPython-2.3/PackageManager.app/Contents/MacOS/ PackageManager >> >>(where 3128 is the port number of your http proxy) >> >> >>- --Stuart Bishop >>http://shangri-la.dropbear.id.au/ >> >>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- >>Version: GnuPG v1.2.1 (Darwin) >> >>iD8DBQE/Hy+lh8iUz1x5geARAnfuAKCgTFQjzMXIZ+jiTZpKYjChCo4izQCgtLtT >>HX3zC7MkonHoJ2f5yXiWETc= >>=zA3l >>-----END PGP SIGNATURE----- >> >> >>_______________________________________________ >>Pythonmac-SIG maillist - Pythonmac-SIG@python.org >>http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pythonmac-sig >> >################################# >Chris Lee >Physics Department >Otago University >PO Box 56 >Dunedin >New Zealand >Phone ++64 3 479 7749 >Fax ++64 3 479 0964 >################################# > > >_______________________________________________ >Pythonmac-SIG maillist - Pythonmac-SIG@python.org >http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pythonmac-sig From bob at redivi.com Wed Jul 23 23:13:52 2003 From: bob at redivi.com (Bob Ippolito) Date: Wed Jul 23 22:13:58 2003 Subject: [Pythonmac-SIG] Additional binary packages for Python2.3rc1 on 10.2.6 Message-ID: <78AC6A9A-BD7C-11D7-9428-000A95686CD8@redivi.com> I've setup a repository for several packages that I use that aren't in jack's list yet, or weren't compiled correctly for the non-fink user. The Package Manager URL is: http://undefined.org/python/pimp/darwin-6.6-Power_Macintosh.plist I couldn't find what jack has been using to build binary packages, so I wrote one that makes it easy. It's at: http://undefined.org/python/makepimp.py Usage of makepimp is: makepimp.py modulename versionnumber It spits out a plist template of what you'd paste into the package manager file. If you use it, you'll want to change HTTPBASE and UPLOADCMD up at the top. modulename must already be installed in your site-packages, I have not tested userdir installation, but it works for me. The packages I have up so far are: readline 2.3c1 PIL 1.1.4 (with static libjpeg support, no tkinter support) egenix-mx-base 2.0.4 ctypes 0.6.2 I'll be adding more sometime (primarily: bsddb3, pyPgSQL, pygame, twisted), but the others I commonly use have non-python dependencies and I'm too lazy to write the detection stuff for all of them at the moment :) I may also add source installers and panther dp versions, but that's a lower priority since my primary machine is OS X 10.2.6. I don't like the current "you have to go fetch this dependency" way of doing things, so I'll probably end up writing some python-based installers for libraries like SDL, Tcl/Tk, BerkeleyDB, PostgreSQL, etc. that will download the binary from somewhere and install, or at least open up the .pkg for you. -bob From bugbee at seanet.com Wed Jul 23 22:36:05 2003 From: bugbee at seanet.com (bugs) Date: Thu Jul 24 00:36:14 2003 Subject: [Pythonmac-SIG] Re: Python 2.3 benchmark request Message-ID: <566DC596-BD90-11D7-8D39-000393DB272E@seanet.com> 15" TiBook 867MHz, 10.2.6, Python 2.3c1 Framework compiled from source with gcc 3.1 -O3: 12866 pystones From oussoren at cistron.nl Thu Jul 24 08:42:04 2003 From: oussoren at cistron.nl (Ronald Oussoren) Date: Thu Jul 24 01:42:11 2003 Subject: [Pythonmac-SIG] For your eyes only: new 2.3rc1+ installer In-Reply-To: <6AAEA200-BD58-11D7-A35F-000A27B19B96@cwi.nl> References: <6AAEA200-BD58-11D7-A35F-000A27B19B96@cwi.nl> Message-ID: <8E6C32C0-BD99-11D7-9D6C-0003931CFE24@cistron.nl> On Wednesday, 23 July, 2003, at 23:55, Jack Jansen wrote: > It must be something in the buildpkg.py module that is simply wrong. > The code was originally donated by Dinu Gherman for 10.1 (or maybe > even 10.0), who reverse-engineered the package format while writing > it. The package structure for 10.2 is documented, and that documentation seems to mention how to structure 10.1 packages as well. That should make item 2 below slightly easier. BTW. the copy of buildpkg.py in PyObjC contains some changes that have not been merged back into your copy. IIRC all changes had to do with 10.2 style pre/post scripts, but I may have forgotten about other changes. Ronald From tony.mcdonald at ncl.ac.uk Thu Jul 24 10:33:09 2003 From: tony.mcdonald at ncl.ac.uk (Tony McDonald) Date: Thu Jul 24 04:33:32 2003 Subject: [Pythonmac-SIG] Re: Python 2.3 benchmark request In-Reply-To: <566DC596-BD90-11D7-8D39-000393DB272E@seanet.com> Message-ID: Hi all, Slightly OT, but an indication of good times to come perhaps... Xserve, Twin 1.3 GHz processors, 2G RAM. 10.2.6 182[9:28] ~/Python-2.3c1 % python Python 2.2.3 (#1, Jun 27 2003, 16:06:20) [GCC 3.1 20020420 (prerelease)] on darwin Type "help", "copyright", "credits" or "license" for more information. >>> from test import pystone >>> pystone.main() Pystone(1.1) time for 10000 passes = 0.53 This machine benchmarks at 18867.9 pystones/second >>> ^D 183[9:29] ~/Python-2.3c1 % ./python.exe Python 2.3c1 (#1, Jul 24 2003, 09:19:02) [GCC 3.1 20020420 (prerelease)] on darwin Type "help", "copyright", "credits" or "license" for more information. >>> from test import pystone >>> pystone.main() Pystone(1.1) time for 50000 passes = 2.18 This machine benchmarks at 22935.8 pystones/second >>> ^D 20%+ improvement! - not bad *at all*!! Also, many many thanks to Jack for all his efforts in this and other releases - it *is* appreciated! Cheers, Tone. -- Dr Tony McDonald, Assistant Director, FMSC, http://www.fmcc.org.uk/ The Medical School, Newcastle University Tel: +44 191 245 4223 Project Manager, FDTL-4 Electronic Portfolios http://www.eportfolios.ac.uk A Zope list for UK HE/FE http://www.fmcc.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/zope From barry at python.org Thu Jul 24 03:07:59 2003 From: barry at python.org (Barry Warsaw) Date: Thu Jul 24 15:32:25 2003 Subject: [Pythonmac-SIG] For your eyes only: new 2.3rc1+ installer In-Reply-To: <6AAEA200-BD58-11D7-A35F-000A27B19B96@cwi.nl> References: <6AAEA200-BD58-11D7-A35F-000A27B19B96@cwi.nl> Message-ID: <1059012443.11764.1.camel@anthem> On Wed, 2003-07-23 at 17:55, Jack Jansen wrote: > Note that 2 and 3 are real options, as the binary installer could be > considered not to be in the critical path for the 2.3 source > distribution, which is the one that absolutely has to be done before > August 1. The downside of fixing things in the binary installer after > the 2.3 source distribution goes out is that it means that it is > impossible to create an identical binary distribution given only a > source distribution. But I think this is already the case for the > Windows binary distribution too, and it's definitely true for the > MacPython-OS9 binary distribution. And the only reason I can think of > why other people would dream of doing a binary distribution would be > that I get hit by a tram, in which case this will be the least of my > worries:-) It's probably inevitable that extra software will be needed to build binary distros for some platforms. Even if that's so, I'd really like for the procedure (as well as external s/w requirements, version #'s etc) to be documented for our kids when they're building Python for their "classic MacOSX" boxes 20 years from now. :) -Barry From andrew.straw at adelaide.edu.au Thu Jul 24 08:31:35 2003 From: andrew.straw at adelaide.edu.au (Andrew Straw) Date: Thu Jul 24 15:32:30 2003 Subject: [Pythonmac-SIG] For your eyes only: new 2.3rc1+ installer In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.2.20030723183108.00b74288@mailsj.corp.adobe.com> Message-ID: <17435280-BD98-11D7-B088-00039311EA24@adelaide.edu.au> Actually, this makes me think that we should hook into the Network System Preferences somehow... That would be really cool! On Thursday, Jul 24, 2003, at 03:36 Europe/Berlin, Alexandre Parenteau wrote: > Hi, > > urllib2 doesn't automatically detect the http proxy, I don't think. I > don't know what Jack was referring to. > > May be try to add these lines in PackageManager.py after you see where > urllib2 is imported: > > # build a new opener that adds proxy authentication > proxy_support = urllib2.ProxyHandler({"http" : > "http://http-proxy:8080"}) > opener = urllib2.build_opener(proxy_support) > # install it > urllib2.install_opener(opener) From andrew.straw at adelaide.edu.au Thu Jul 24 08:32:35 2003 From: andrew.straw at adelaide.edu.au (Andrew Straw) Date: Thu Jul 24 15:32:33 2003 Subject: [Pythonmac-SIG] For your eyes only: new 2.3rc1+ installer Message-ID: <3B115C02-BD98-11D7-B088-00039311EA24@adelaide.edu.au> On Thursday, Jul 24, 2003, at 00:02 Europe/Berlin, Jack Jansen wrote: > > On woensdag, jul 23, 2003, at 23:00 Europe/Amsterdam, Chris Lee wrote: > >> You probably already know this but the package manager doesn't manage >> to get through firewalls. > > No, I didn't know this! Code was added before 2.3b1 to make it go > through firewalls (basically using urllib2 in stead of urllib, which > should be firewall-aware. This definitely needs to be fixed, or at the > very least warned about. It does work. Set the environment variable http_proxy: for bash do this: bash$ export http_proxy='http://username:password@proxy.blahblahblah.com:1234' for all Mac OS X apps (e.g. double clicking from Applications) make this your ~/.MacOSX/environment.plist file: http_proxy http://username:password@proxy.blahblahblah.com:1234 Note that you'll need to login again for the 2nd approach to have an effect. Cheers! Andrew From Jack.Jansen at cwi.nl Thu Jul 24 23:00:31 2003 From: Jack.Jansen at cwi.nl (Jack Jansen) Date: Thu Jul 24 16:00:43 2003 Subject: [Pythonmac-SIG] For your eyes only: new 2.3rc1+ installer In-Reply-To: <17435280-BD98-11D7-B088-00039311EA24@adelaide.edu.au> Message-ID: <7AE43108-BE11-11D7-827A-000A27B19B96@cwi.nl> On donderdag, jul 24, 2003, at 07:31 Europe/Amsterdam, Andrew Straw wrote: > Actually, this makes me think that we should hook into the Network > System Preferences somehow... That would be really cool! Indeed, we should. Could someone who uses a firewall submit a bug report? Then we can try and fix this for 2.3.1. -- - Jack Jansen http://www.cwi.nl/~jack - - If I can't dance I don't want to be part of your revolution -- Emma Goldman - From oussoren at cistron.nl Thu Jul 24 23:02:34 2003 From: oussoren at cistron.nl (Ronald Oussoren) Date: Thu Jul 24 16:02:51 2003 Subject: [Pythonmac-SIG] For your eyes only: new 2.3rc1+ installer In-Reply-To: <3B115C02-BD98-11D7-B088-00039311EA24@adelaide.edu.au> References: <3B115C02-BD98-11D7-B088-00039311EA24@adelaide.edu.au> Message-ID: On Thursday, 24 July, 2003, at 07:32, Andrew Straw wrote: > On Thursday, Jul 24, 2003, at 00:02 Europe/Berlin, Jack Jansen wrote: > >> >> On woensdag, jul 23, 2003, at 23:00 Europe/Amsterdam, Chris Lee wrote: >> >>> You probably already know this but the package manager doesn't >>> manage to get through firewalls. >> >> No, I didn't know this! Code was added before 2.3b1 to make it go >> through firewalls (basically using urllib2 in stead of urllib, which >> should be firewall-aware. This definitely needs to be fixed, or at >> the very least warned about. > > It does work. Set the environment variable http_proxy: Using InternetConfig would be more appropriate, import ic conf = ic.IC() if conf['UseHTTPProxy']: http_proxy = conf['HTTPProxyHost'] # Setting the proxy in urllist2 left as an exercise for the reader Ronald From cjl at physics.otago.ac.nz Fri Jul 25 09:38:34 2003 From: cjl at physics.otago.ac.nz (Chris Lee) Date: Thu Jul 24 16:40:01 2003 Subject: [Pythonmac-SIG] For your eyes only: new 2.3rc1+ installer In-Reply-To: <3B115C02-BD98-11D7-B088-00039311EA24@adelaide.edu.au> Message-ID: Although I am willing to do this I would like to point out that this is not a good solution. The process should be download, install and use not download, install, play with env variables/create/adjust plist files and use. Cheers Chris On Thursday, July 24, 2003, at 05:32 PM, Andrew Straw wrote: > On Thursday, Jul 24, 2003, at 00:02 Europe/Berlin, Jack Jansen wrote: > >> >> On woensdag, jul 23, 2003, at 23:00 Europe/Amsterdam, Chris Lee wrote: >> >>> You probably already know this but the package manager doesn't >>> manage to get through firewalls. >> >> No, I didn't know this! Code was added before 2.3b1 to make it go >> through firewalls (basically using urllib2 in stead of urllib, which >> should be firewall-aware. This definitely needs to be fixed, or at >> the very least warned about. > > It does work. Set the environment variable http_proxy: > > for bash do this: > > bash$ export > http_proxy='http://username:password@proxy.blahblahblah.com:1234' > > for all Mac OS X apps (e.g. double clicking from Applications) make > this your ~/.MacOSX/environment.plist file: > > > "http://www.apple.com/DTDs/PropertyList-1.0.dtd"> > > > http_proxy > http://username:password@proxy.blahblahblah.com:1234 > > > > Note that you'll need to login again for the 2nd approach to have an > effect. > > Cheers! > Andrew > > > _______________________________________________ > Pythonmac-SIG maillist - Pythonmac-SIG@python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pythonmac-sig > > ################################# Chris Lee Physics Department Otago University PO Box 56 Dunedin New Zealand Phone ++64 3 479 7749 Fax ++64 3 479 0964 ################################# From Martina at Oefelein.de Thu Jul 24 23:50:07 2003 From: Martina at Oefelein.de (Martina Oefelein) Date: Thu Jul 24 16:50:10 2003 Subject: [Pythonmac-SIG] Re: Python 2.3 benchmark request In-Reply-To: <566DC596-BD90-11D7-8D39-000393DB272E@seanet.com> Message-ID: <68D95653-BE18-11D7-A112-000A957DBE94@Oefelein.de> PB 12" Using the IDE, I get: Python 2.3c1 (#9, Jul 23 2003, 11:51:05) [GCC 3.1 20020420 (prerelease)] Type "copyright", "credits" or "license" for more information. MacPython IDE 1.0.1 >>> from test import pystone >>> pystone.main() Pystone(1.1) time for 50000 passes = 4.18 This machine benchmarks at 11961.7 pystones/second The command line version is a bit faster (/usr/local/bin/python): Python 2.3c1 (#9, Jul 23 2003, 11:51:05) [GCC 3.1 20020420 (prerelease)] on darwin Type "help", "copyright", "credits" or "license" for more information. >>> from test import pystone >>> pystone.main() Pystone(1.1) time for 50000 passes = 3.97 This machine benchmarks at 12594.5 pystones/second ciao Martina From Jack.Jansen at cwi.nl Fri Jul 25 00:03:14 2003 From: Jack.Jansen at cwi.nl (Jack Jansen) Date: Thu Jul 24 17:03:19 2003 Subject: [Pythonmac-SIG] Idea on RootInstallOnly problems Message-ID: <3DE1F7FC-BE1A-11D7-827A-000A27B19B96@cwi.nl> I have an idea on the problems with RootInstallOnly, let me bounce it off you. It may have to do with the partition you use for your boot disk: if it's the first partition on your disk then things worked fine with the -6 installer, if it is not the first partition then things don't work. I noticed that at work things went wrong (the boot disk selected, but an error message with "(null)" in it and I had to select another disk and the boot disk again to make things work), but at home everything works fine. At work my setup is that I have two IDE disks, with OSX running on the second partition of the second disk (disk1s9). At home I have one IDE disk and one firewire disk. OSX is running on the first partition of the firewire disk (disk1s4). -- - Jack Jansen http://www.cwi.nl/~jack - - If I can't dance I don't want to be part of your revolution -- Emma Goldman - From cjl at physics.otago.ac.nz Fri Jul 25 10:13:12 2003 From: cjl at physics.otago.ac.nz (Chris Lee) Date: Thu Jul 24 17:14:49 2003 Subject: [Pythonmac-SIG] Idea on RootInstallOnly problems In-Reply-To: <3DE1F7FC-BE1A-11D7-827A-000A27B19B96@cwi.nl> Message-ID: I have only one disk with a single partition but had problems selecting the disk for install with 2.3rc1. I had to go back a step in the installer and then forward to be allowed to select the disk. Cheers Chris On Friday, July 25, 2003, at 09:03 AM, Jack Jansen wrote: > I have an idea on the problems with RootInstallOnly, let me bounce it > off you. It may have to do with the partition you use for your boot > disk: if it's the first partition on your disk then things worked fine > with the -6 installer, if it is not the first partition then things > don't work. > > I noticed that at work things went wrong (the boot disk selected, but > an error message with "(null)" in it and I had to select another disk > and the boot disk again to make things work), but at home everything > works fine. > > At work my setup is that I have two IDE disks, with OSX running on the > second partition of the second disk (disk1s9). > > At home I have one IDE disk and one firewire disk. OSX is running on > the first partition of the firewire disk (disk1s4). > > -- > - Jack Jansen > http://www.cwi.nl/~jack - > - If I can't dance I don't want to be part of your revolution -- Emma > Goldman - > > > _______________________________________________ > Pythonmac-SIG maillist - Pythonmac-SIG@python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pythonmac-sig > > ################################# Chris Lee Physics Department Otago University PO Box 56 Dunedin New Zealand Phone ++64 3 479 7749 Fax ++64 3 479 0964 ################################# From Jack.Jansen at cwi.nl Fri Jul 25 00:17:27 2003 From: Jack.Jansen at cwi.nl (Jack Jansen) Date: Thu Jul 24 17:17:32 2003 Subject: [Pythonmac-SIG] For your eyes only: new 2.3rc1+ installer In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <39FE97E8-BE1C-11D7-827A-000A27B19B96@cwi.nl> On donderdag, jul 24, 2003, at 22:38 Europe/Amsterdam, Chris Lee wrote: > Although I am willing to do this I would like to point out that this > is not a good solution. The process should be download, install and > use not download, install, play with env variables/create/adjust plist > files and use. Absolutely right. That's why I want to fix this for 2.3.1. I don't want to touch urllib2 for 2.3, where I think the fix should really go. I could be tempted to use Ronalds fix and put it in Package Manager, though, so if people think I should do that let me know. -- - Jack Jansen http://www.cwi.nl/~jack - - If I can't dance I don't want to be part of your revolution -- Emma Goldman - From Jack.Jansen at cwi.nl Fri Jul 25 01:15:32 2003 From: Jack.Jansen at cwi.nl (Jack Jansen) Date: Thu Jul 24 18:15:39 2003 Subject: [Pythonmac-SIG] For your eyes only: new 2.3rc1+ installer In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <573B5124-BE24-11D7-827A-000A27B19B96@cwi.nl> On woensdag, jul 23, 2003, at 22:18 Europe/Amsterdam, Kevin Ollivier wrote: > With regards to the welcome message - have you tried using RTF format > for the message? That seems to be Apple's preferred format for > installer messages. Thanks to bundlebuilder.py I don't need to write > installers anymore =), but I never had any problems using RTF format. Good idea, but doesn't work, after I spent an hour or so rebuilding everything:-( An RTF welcome file also doesn't scroll right. -- - Jack Jansen http://www.cwi.nl/~jack - - If I can't dance I don't want to be part of your revolution -- Emma Goldman - From gandreas at delver.com Thu Jul 24 18:44:42 2003 From: gandreas at delver.com (Glenn Andreas) Date: Thu Jul 24 18:44:50 2003 Subject: [Pythonmac-SIG] ANN: PyOXIDE 0.1 - Cocoa based Python IDE Message-ID: Ever wanted a Python editor chocked full of Cocoa goodness? Syntax coloring, split windows, and large chunks of it written in Python (thanks to the wonders of PyObjC) so you can extend it for your special needs? PyOXIDE 0.1 is now freely available on my idisk (as PyOXIDE_0.1.dmg): http://homepage.mac.com/gandreas/ It currently is an editor, with additional interactive windows, as well as the ability to run source files, browse around, etc... In many respects, it is like the Carbon based IDE that comes with MacPython (though I've yet to get all those features). Note that it might require the Python 2.2 framework and PyObjC 1.0b1 (at least those are the versions that work fine on my end - in theory, as long as there is something at /Library/Framework/Python.framework and it can run the PyObjC samples, it should work). Give a try, see how it works, and let me know what you think! Glenn Andreas gandreas@delver.com Author of Macintosh games: Theldrow 2.3, Blobbo 1.0.2, Cythera 1.0.2 Be good, and you will be lonesome From bob at redivi.com Fri Jul 25 02:02:49 2003 From: bob at redivi.com (Bob Ippolito) Date: Fri Jul 25 01:02:56 2003 Subject: [Pythonmac-SIG] ANN: aeve 0.0.1 - Pythonic Apple Event support Message-ID: <3CAFAF3B-BE5D-11D7-9A5C-000A95686CD8@redivi.com> For those of you that like yourselves too much to attempt gensuitemodule, I've been working on a replacement that's a few orders of magnitude easier to use. Basically, this lets Python do most things you could do from Script Editor in a very dynamic way. You can fetch it at: http://undefined.org/python/aeve-0.0.1.tgz aeve does not require you to spit out a bunch of py files before talking to an app, it's as easy as this: import aeve iTunes = aeve.talkto('/Applications/iTunes.app') print iTunes.current_track.name Of course, for those great applications that have broken aevt dictionaries, you can use the compiler to generate .py files, like this: cd aeve/scripts ./compiler.py -o . /Applications/iTunes.app Which will spit out a python package called iTunes, with all of the relevant .py files. It's not quite pretty printed, but it's good enough to fix things (for example, adding the undocumented artwork element to the track class). The latest feature, which I just finished a few minutes ago, is html documentation. Here's an example: http://undefined.org/python/aeve/iTunes_doc/ As you can tell, I was pretty uninspired and copied the look and feel of Script Editor's dictionary. This documentation was spit out with the following: cd aeve/scripts ./aevedoc.py /Applications/iTunes.app There are currently two example scripts included: missingTrackFinder.py - seeks out and destroys file tracks in your playlist whose file is missing (there are plenty of status and question dialogs, so it's pretty safe) spamStatusMessage.py - a little script I've been using to set my iChat status message to the number of spams I've filtered _that day_. Most people probably don't have the same Mail.app structure as I do, but it's rather easy to change around if you want to play. If you get a chance to play with aeve, I'm looking for feedback/bug reports - especially from those of you that have used or are using gensuitemodule, or have never used Apple Events. -bob From just at letterror.com Fri Jul 25 10:14:17 2003 From: just at letterror.com (Just van Rossum) Date: Fri Jul 25 03:14:27 2003 Subject: [Pythonmac-SIG] ANN: PyOXIDE 0.1 - Cocoa based Python IDE In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Glenn Andreas wrote: > Ever wanted a Python editor chocked full of Cocoa goodness? Yeah, been working on one myself! > Note that it might require the Python 2.2 framework and PyObjC 1.0b1 A 2.2 framework is very rare, so you may want to build one that uses 2.3. It crashes when there's no 2.2 framework available. Or: use the bundlebuilder from 2.3 (rc1 or 2 would be fine, b2 is too old ;-) and include (a subset of) Python.framework in your app. Or make a source distro. Just From Jack.Jansen at cwi.nl Fri Jul 25 14:30:11 2003 From: Jack.Jansen at cwi.nl (Jack Jansen) Date: Fri Jul 25 07:27:28 2003 Subject: [Pythonmac-SIG] Binary installer for MacPython-2.3rc2 available Message-ID: <5A2C76D6-BE93-11D7-91D9-0030655234CE@cwi.nl> A binary installer for MacPython-2.3rc2 for Mac OS X 10.2 is available at . This will hopefully go out as 2.3 final some time next week. Please report any problems, preferably to pythonmac-sig@python.org, or otherwise directly to me. -- Jack Jansen, , http://www.cwi.nl/~jack If I can't dance I don't want to be part of your revolution -- Emma Goldman From deleeuw at stat.ucla.edu Fri Jul 25 10:58:34 2003 From: deleeuw at stat.ucla.edu (Jan de Leeuw) Date: Fri Jul 25 12:58:35 2003 Subject: [Pythonmac-SIG] 2.3rc2-3 in Panther Message-ID: <39E55A61-BEC1-11D7-B474-000393BB6D36@stat.ucla.edu> As far as I can see most of this works on Panther, except PackageManager, which looks for the darwin-7.0.0b1 plist on packman and cannot find it. === Jan de Leeuw; Professor and Chair, UCLA Department of Statistics; Editor: Journal of Multivariate Analysis, Journal of Statistical Software US mail: 9432 Boelter Hall, Box 951554, Los Angeles, CA 90095-1554 phone (310)-825-9550; fax (310)-206-5658; email: deleeuw@stat.ucla.edu homepage: http://gifi.stat.ucla.edu ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------- No matter where you go, there you are. --- Buckaroo Banzai http://gifi.stat.ucla.edu/sounds/nomatter.au ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------- From bob at redivi.com Fri Jul 25 14:15:20 2003 From: bob at redivi.com (Bob Ippolito) Date: Fri Jul 25 13:15:27 2003 Subject: [Pythonmac-SIG] 2.3rc2-3 in Panther In-Reply-To: <39E55A61-BEC1-11D7-B474-000393BB6D36@stat.ucla.edu> Message-ID: <91F6015A-BEC3-11D7-B892-000A95686CD8@redivi.com> On Friday, Jul 25, 2003, at 12:58 America/New_York, Jan de Leeuw wrote: > As far as I can see most of this works on Panther, except > PackageManager, > which looks for the darwin-7.0.0b1 plist on packman and cannot find it. Technically, that means PackageManager is working.. it just means Jack is too busy to make Panther packages for things. :) It is highly likely that many of the binary packages for 10.2.6 will work just fine on Panther as-is -- especially the source ones, which should almost definitely work. I have heard that the binary PyObjC does not work on Panther, but I do know from experience that Wednesday's CVS snapshot of PyObjC compiles and works as expected on Panther. If I can find the time this weekend, I will see about making the packages (at least binary ones) for Panther DP and posting them to undefined. -bob From Jack.Jansen at cwi.nl Fri Jul 25 22:36:48 2003 From: Jack.Jansen at cwi.nl (Jack Jansen) Date: Fri Jul 25 15:36:59 2003 Subject: [Pythonmac-SIG] 2.3rc2-3 in Panther In-Reply-To: <91F6015A-BEC3-11D7-B892-000A95686CD8@redivi.com> Message-ID: <54D2F6E4-BED7-11D7-9C27-000A27B19B96@cwi.nl> On vrijdag, jul 25, 2003, at 19:15 Europe/Amsterdam, Bob Ippolito wrote: > Technically, that means PackageManager is working.. it just means Jack > is too busy to make Panther packages for things. :) It is highly > likely that many of the binary packages for 10.2.6 will work just fine > on Panther as-is -- especially the source ones, which should almost > definitely work. I have heard that the binary PyObjC does not work on > Panther, but I do know from experience that Wednesday's CVS snapshot > of PyObjC compiles and works as expected on Panther. > > If I can find the time this weekend, I will see about making the > packages (at least binary ones) for Panther DP and posting them to > undefined. What would be very helpful to me is if someone with the time would open the PM database for 10.2, and see which of the packages work as-is. Then me starting on the Panther database will be speeded up, as I can just start with the relevant portions of the 10.2 database. -- - Jack Jansen http://www.cwi.nl/~jack - - If I can't dance I don't want to be part of your revolution -- Emma Goldman - From bob at redivi.com Fri Jul 25 17:44:59 2003 From: bob at redivi.com (Bob Ippolito) Date: Fri Jul 25 16:45:07 2003 Subject: [Pythonmac-SIG] 2.3rc2-3 in Panther In-Reply-To: <54D2F6E4-BED7-11D7-9C27-000A27B19B96@cwi.nl> Message-ID: On Friday, Jul 25, 2003, at 15:36 America/New_York, Jack Jansen wrote: > > On vrijdag, jul 25, 2003, at 19:15 Europe/Amsterdam, Bob Ippolito > wrote: >> Technically, that means PackageManager is working.. it just means >> Jack is too busy to make Panther packages for things. :) It is >> highly likely that many of the binary packages for 10.2.6 will work >> just fine on Panther as-is -- especially the source ones, which >> should almost definitely work. I have heard that the binary PyObjC >> does not work on Panther, but I do know from experience that >> Wednesday's CVS snapshot of PyObjC compiles and works as expected on >> Panther. >> >> If I can find the time this weekend, I will see about making the >> packages (at least binary ones) for Panther DP and posting them to >> undefined. > > What would be very helpful to me is if someone with the time would > open the PM database for 10.2, and see which of the packages work > as-is. Then me starting on the Panther database will be speeded up, as > I can just start with the relevant portions of the 10.2 database. IIRC, PyObjC did not work, but the rest did. I'm not sure if I tried source or binary, though. I'll try again tonight when I install rc2 on my panther laptop. All the packages in my repository work both with 10.2.6 and Panther as far as I can tell. You should inherit the binary PIL that I compiled, or compile your own with a static libjpeg.. because I am definitely not going to install Fink, and I'm sure there are other MacPython users without Fink for whatever reason. One bug that I have noticed is that I don't have _tkinter.so anywhere, even though I had Tcl and Tk installed when I installed rc2. It's detected in Package Manager. Perhaps you should separate a _tkinter from the main python distribution and put it in Package Manager in src/binary format? Would you like some help doing that? It seems rather straightforward, I've gotten _Qt.so and readline to compile rather easily with distutils, I can't imagine _tkinter being all that much harder. -bob From Jack.Jansen at cwi.nl Fri Jul 25 23:57:03 2003 From: Jack.Jansen at cwi.nl (Jack Jansen) Date: Fri Jul 25 16:57:14 2003 Subject: [Pythonmac-SIG] First stab at new MacPython website Message-ID: <8B47B3EC-BEE2-11D7-9C27-000A27B19B96@cwi.nl> Folks, I've created a first stab of the new MacPython website. Please have a look at it, and send comments to the mailing list so we can discuss them. You can find it at . I think I have all the information from the old web page covered, and all the new stuff that is essential. But I would like comments on everything (and, don't worry, you'll be hard-pressed to hurt my ego, so fire away:-), including: - Organisation - graphic design, fonts, colors, etc - errors, dead links, links going to the wrong place - missing information The latter is especially open for discussion. I was thinking of adding at least a section on GUI programming, but I'm open to sugestions on other things. Also, should I add the MacPython Help files here too, so people can get a quick idea? -- - Jack Jansen http://www.cwi.nl/~jack - - If I can't dance I don't want to be part of your revolution -- Emma Goldman - From njriley at uiuc.edu Fri Jul 25 17:03:47 2003 From: njriley at uiuc.edu (Nicholas Riley) Date: Fri Jul 25 17:03:53 2003 Subject: [Pythonmac-SIG] First stab at new MacPython website In-Reply-To: <8B47B3EC-BEE2-11D7-9C27-000A27B19B96@cwi.nl> References: <8B47B3EC-BEE2-11D7-9C27-000A27B19B96@cwi.nl> Message-ID: <20030725210347.GA145638@uiuc.edu> On Fri, Jul 25, 2003 at 10:57:03PM +0200, Jack Jansen wrote: > Folks, > I've created a first stab of the new MacPython website. Please have > a look at it, and send comments to the mailing list so we can > discuss them. You can find it at > . Looks nice. One small error on the front page: "This Python version runs on Mac OS X and earlier but also on Mac OS 9 or earlier." I think you mean "Mac OS X and _later_". Does MacPython-OSX 2.3 run back to 10.0? If not, you might want to indicate what the minimum requirement is. -- =Nicholas Riley | Pablo Research Group, Department of Computer Science and Medical Scholars Program, University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign From bob at redivi.com Fri Jul 25 18:34:07 2003 From: bob at redivi.com (Bob Ippolito) Date: Fri Jul 25 17:34:13 2003 Subject: [Pythonmac-SIG] First stab at new MacPython website In-Reply-To: <8B47B3EC-BEE2-11D7-9C27-000A27B19B96@cwi.nl> Message-ID: On Friday, Jul 25, 2003, at 16:57 America/New_York, Jack Jansen wrote: > Folks, > I've created a first stab of the new MacPython website. Please have a > look at it, > and send comments to the mailing list so we can discuss them. You can > find it at > . > > I think I have all the information from the old web page covered, and > all the new stuff > that is essential. But I would like comments on everything (and, don't > worry, > you'll be hard-pressed to hurt my ego, so fire away:-), including: > > - Organisation Is it necessary to have a side bar and a top bar? There doesn't seem to be enough sections to justify this. Also, the top bar is GIGANTIC due to the alignment with the really big and ugly icon. It's time to get rid of the paperweight and get a sexy icon. I'll talk to some of my friends and see if I can con one of them into making a new logo. I don't think anyone understands what the 16 ton icon means (anymore?), and it obviously wasn't designed to be displayed at that size. > - graphic design, fonts, colors, etc The "Special topics" section should behave like the top navigation.. meaning, if you're at a particular section, it should remain in the navigation but no longer as an anchor tag. In Safari 1.0, there does not appear to be a right margin on the page. "MacPython is the port "... should probably be stated as "MacPython is the official port..." Exits doesn't seem terribly useful, especially cause it's not consistently there and generally just points to python.org.. Also Community is terse enough to be part of Home, especially since the c.l.py newsgroup and mailing list is mentioned there where the Pythonmac-SIG is more likely to be relevant to a MacPython user. > - errors, dead links, links going to the wrong place http://python.sourceforge.net/ (Developers section) is deprecated, and should be http://www.python.org/dev/ MacPython Documentation should point to http://www.python.org/doc/ (Documentation) .. perhaps even more specific sections such as http://www.python.org/doc/current/mac/mac.html > - missing information Package Manager! > > The latter is especially open for discussion. I was thinking of adding > at least a section > on GUI programming, but I'm open to sugestions on other things. Also, > should I add the MacPython Help files here too, so people can get a > quick idea? -bob From Jack.Jansen at cwi.nl Sat Jul 26 00:35:42 2003 From: Jack.Jansen at cwi.nl (Jack Jansen) Date: Fri Jul 25 17:35:53 2003 Subject: [Pythonmac-SIG] First stab at new MacPython website In-Reply-To: <20030725210347.GA145638@uiuc.edu> Message-ID: On vrijdag, jul 25, 2003, at 23:03 Europe/Amsterdam, Nicholas Riley wrote: > "This Python version runs on Mac OS X and earlier but also on Mac OS 9 > or earlier." > > I think you mean "Mac OS X and _later_". Does MacPython-OSX 2.3 run > back to 10.0? If not, you might want to indicate what the minimum > requirement is. Thanks! I've re-worded the paragraph, and added a note to the download section that the current installer is 10.2-only. -- - Jack Jansen http://www.cwi.nl/~jack - - If I can't dance I don't want to be part of your revolution -- Emma Goldman - From larry.bugbee at boeing.com Fri Jul 25 15:37:44 2003 From: larry.bugbee at boeing.com (Bugbee, Larry) Date: Fri Jul 25 17:39:27 2003 Subject: [Pythonmac-SIG] First stab at new MacPython website Message-ID: <8CFC81BC2CC2A74F88BAB7180F00B779023B796D@xch-nw-29.nw.nos.boeing.com> If there is any chance of a nice logo that does NOT have the snake, I and a few others would appreciate it. Tx, Larry -----Original Message----- From: Bob Ippolito [mailto:bob@redivi.com] Sent: Friday, July 25, 2003 2:34 PM To: Jack Jansen Cc: pythonmac-sig@python.org Subject: Re: [Pythonmac-SIG] First stab at new MacPython website On Friday, Jul 25, 2003, at 16:57 America/New_York, Jack Jansen wrote: > Folks, > I've created a first stab of the new MacPython website. Please have a > look at it, > and send comments to the mailing list so we can discuss them. You can > find it at > . > > I think I have all the information from the old web page covered, and > all the new stuff > that is essential. But I would like comments on everything (and, don't > worry, > you'll be hard-pressed to hurt my ego, so fire away:-), including: > > - Organisation Is it necessary to have a side bar and a top bar? There doesn't seem to be enough sections to justify this. Also, the top bar is GIGANTIC due to the alignment with the really big and ugly icon. It's time to get rid of the paperweight and get a sexy icon. I'll talk to some of my friends and see if I can con one of them into making a new logo. I don't think anyone understands what the 16 ton icon means (anymore?), and it obviously wasn't designed to be displayed at that size. > - graphic design, fonts, colors, etc The "Special topics" section should behave like the top navigation.. meaning, if you're at a particular section, it should remain in the navigation but no longer as an anchor tag. In Safari 1.0, there does not appear to be a right margin on the page. "MacPython is the port "... should probably be stated as "MacPython is the official port..." Exits doesn't seem terribly useful, especially cause it's not consistently there and generally just points to python.org.. Also Community is terse enough to be part of Home, especially since the c.l.py newsgroup and mailing list is mentioned there where the Pythonmac-SIG is more likely to be relevant to a MacPython user. > - errors, dead links, links going to the wrong place http://python.sourceforge.net/ (Developers section) is deprecated, and should be http://www.python.org/dev/ MacPython Documentation should point to http://www.python.org/doc/ (Documentation) .. perhaps even more specific sections such as http://www.python.org/doc/current/mac/mac.html > - missing information Package Manager! > > The latter is especially open for discussion. I was thinking of adding > at least a section > on GUI programming, but I'm open to sugestions on other things. Also, > should I add the MacPython Help files here too, so people can get a > quick idea? -bob _______________________________________________ Pythonmac-SIG maillist - Pythonmac-SIG@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pythonmac-sig From bob at redivi.com Fri Jul 25 18:45:04 2003 From: bob at redivi.com (Bob Ippolito) Date: Fri Jul 25 17:45:12 2003 Subject: [Pythonmac-SIG] First stab at new MacPython website In-Reply-To: <8CFC81BC2CC2A74F88BAB7180F00B779023B796D@xch-nw-29.nw.nos.boeing.com> Message-ID: <40584A1C-BEE9-11D7-B892-000A95686CD8@redivi.com> I don't think that strange typography ( re: http://www.python.org/ ) would work, what would you suggest as an alternative? What's wrong with the snake? Windows has the snake, pygame has a snake :) -bob On Friday, Jul 25, 2003, at 17:37 America/New_York, Bugbee, Larry wrote: > If there is any chance of a nice logo that does NOT have the snake, I > and a few others would appreciate it. > > Tx, > > Larry > > -----Original Message----- > From: Bob Ippolito [mailto:bob@redivi.com] > Sent: Friday, July 25, 2003 2:34 PM > To: Jack Jansen > Cc: pythonmac-sig@python.org > Subject: Re: [Pythonmac-SIG] First stab at new MacPython website > > > On Friday, Jul 25, 2003, at 16:57 America/New_York, Jack Jansen wrote: > >> Folks, >> I've created a first stab of the new MacPython website. Please have a >> look at it, >> and send comments to the mailing list so we can discuss them. You can >> find it at >> . >> >> I think I have all the information from the old web page covered, and >> all the new stuff >> that is essential. But I would like comments on everything (and, don't >> worry, >> you'll be hard-pressed to hurt my ego, so fire away:-), including: >> >> - Organisation > > Is it necessary to have a side bar and a top bar? There doesn't seem > to be enough sections to justify this. Also, the top bar is GIGANTIC > due to the alignment with the really big and ugly icon. It's time to > get rid of the paperweight and get a sexy icon. I'll talk to some of > my friends and see if I can con one of them into making a new logo. I > don't think anyone understands what the 16 ton icon means (anymore?), > and it obviously wasn't designed to be displayed at that size. > >> - graphic design, fonts, colors, etc > > The "Special topics" section should behave like the top navigation.. > meaning, if you're at a particular section, it should remain in the > navigation but no longer as an anchor tag. > In Safari 1.0, there does not appear to be a right margin on the page. > "MacPython is the port "... should probably be stated as "MacPython is > the official port..." > Exits doesn't seem terribly useful, especially cause it's not > consistently there and generally just points to python.org.. Also > Community is terse enough to be part of Home, especially since the > c.l.py newsgroup and mailing list is mentioned there where the > Pythonmac-SIG is more likely to be relevant to a MacPython user. > >> - errors, dead links, links going to the wrong place > > http://python.sourceforge.net/ (Developers section) is deprecated, and > should be http://www.python.org/dev/ > > MacPython Documentation should point to http://www.python.org/doc/ > (Documentation) .. perhaps even more specific sections such as > http://www.python.org/doc/current/mac/mac.html > > >> - missing information > > Package Manager! > >> >> The latter is especially open for discussion. I was thinking of adding >> at least a section >> on GUI programming, but I'm open to sugestions on other things. Also, >> should I add the MacPython Help files here too, so people can get a >> quick idea? > > -bob > > > _______________________________________________ > Pythonmac-SIG maillist - Pythonmac-SIG@python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pythonmac-sig > > _______________________________________________ > Pythonmac-SIG maillist - Pythonmac-SIG@python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pythonmac-sig From bob at redivi.com Fri Jul 25 18:50:08 2003 From: bob at redivi.com (Bob Ippolito) Date: Fri Jul 25 17:50:15 2003 Subject: [Pythonmac-SIG] First stab at new MacPython website In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Friday, Jul 25, 2003, at 17:34 America/New_York, Bob Ippolito wrote: > On Friday, Jul 25, 2003, at 16:57 America/New_York, Jack Jansen wrote: >> - missing information > > Package Manager! Ah, it's hidden away in the MacPython on Mac OS X section.. There should be a big 'ol screenshot or package listing of what's in Package Manager.. I think that it's extremely important that people know that it's there, especially because everyone else has to use the vaults, dselect, or whatever other method to find and install Python packages. Also in the same section it mentions Cocoa, but without PyObjC Python has no bindings to Cocoa. You should drop Cocoa or mention PyObjC. The "Modules that interface too" sentence should use "to", but I'd probably say "Interfaces for" instead. -bob From njriley at uiuc.edu Fri Jul 25 17:50:01 2003 From: njriley at uiuc.edu (Nicholas Riley) Date: Fri Jul 25 17:50:29 2003 Subject: [Pythonmac-SIG] First stab at new MacPython website In-Reply-To: <40584A1C-BEE9-11D7-B892-000A95686CD8@redivi.com> References: <8CFC81BC2CC2A74F88BAB7180F00B779023B796D@xch-nw-29.nw.nos.boeing.com> <40584A1C-BEE9-11D7-B892-000A95686CD8@redivi.com> Message-ID: <20030725215001.GA145891@uiuc.edu> On Fri, Jul 25, 2003 at 05:45:04PM -0400, Bob Ippolito wrote: > I don't think that strange typography ( re: http://www.python.org/ ) > would work, what would you suggest as an alternative? What's wrong > with the snake? Windows has the snake, pygame has a snake :) Hey, we use Macs for a -reason- here :-) Seriously, I really like the 16 ton weight; if it's a bit cryptic, who cares, at least it's symbolic and a lot easier to draw than a snake. People should be aware of the -real- origin of the name Python. What we do need is someone who can draw a non-pixelated Aqua-ish version, and that ain't me. A somewhat related question - why is MacPython not hosted on python.org? It does make it seem a bit like the neglected stepchild to have it off on its own site when the Windows/Unix Python versions are directly there. (Even though using Python on the Mac has been easier and more fun in the past year than I can ever remember before... thanks everyone!) -- =Nicholas Riley | Pablo Research Group, Department of Computer Science and Medical Scholars Program, University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign From bob at redivi.com Fri Jul 25 18:56:41 2003 From: bob at redivi.com (Bob Ippolito) Date: Fri Jul 25 17:56:47 2003 Subject: [Pythonmac-SIG] First stab at new MacPython website In-Reply-To: <20030725215001.GA145891@uiuc.edu> Message-ID: On Friday, Jul 25, 2003, at 17:50 America/New_York, Nicholas Riley wrote: > On Fri, Jul 25, 2003 at 05:45:04PM -0400, Bob Ippolito wrote: >> I don't think that strange typography ( re: http://www.python.org/ ) >> would work, what would you suggest as an alternative? What's wrong >> with the snake? Windows has the snake, pygame has a snake :) > > Hey, we use Macs for a -reason- here :-) > > Seriously, I really like the 16 ton weight; if it's a bit cryptic, who > cares, at least it's symbolic and a lot easier to draw than a snake. > People should be aware of the -real- origin of the name Python. Good point, neither the 16 ton weight or a plain-jane snake are anywhere close to complying with the Aqua Human Interface Guidelines. However, IMHO, it'd be a lot more fun to make a Aqua-HIG compliantish icon with a snake (i.e. something like the script editor icon, with a snake instead of the 'scroll') than with a 16 ton weight! -bob From Jack.Jansen at cwi.nl Sat Jul 26 01:07:13 2003 From: Jack.Jansen at cwi.nl (Jack Jansen) Date: Fri Jul 25 18:07:44 2003 Subject: [Pythonmac-SIG] MacPython logo In-Reply-To: <40584A1C-BEE9-11D7-B892-000A95686CD8@redivi.com> Message-ID: <58919798-BEEC-11D7-9C27-000A27B19B96@cwi.nl> Let's please take the logo discussion to a different thread, so it doesn't overwhelm the rest of the website discussion. On vrijdag, jul 25, 2003, at 23:45 Europe/Amsterdam, Bob Ippolito wrote: > I don't think that strange typography ( re: http://www.python.org/ ) > would work, what would you suggest as an alternative? What's wrong > with the snake? Windows has the snake, pygame has a snake :) The strange typography has one showstopper problem for me: you can't use it for the program icon. We need something that can be used on the website, the program icon and all sorts of related icons (documents, helper apps) and probably more eventually (installer backdrop, etc). *If* we go for something snake-y I insist it be an "Apple Snake", i.e. something that looks like a real snake, or real snakeskin, or some such. The 4-color Windows snake is simply too ugly for words. I agree that the current cartoon-weight has had it's time. I think my preference would be to update it to an "Apple 16 Tonne weight", if you get my drift, but I'm open to any good design (and, as always, I'll defer to the majority anyway). Note that the fact that the connection to Python is thin for many people isn't necessarily a problem: it's more important that it's used consistently. After all, what's the connection between Tcl/Tk and a quill? Photoshop Elements and a sunflower? Retrospect and a cube? -- - Jack Jansen http://www.cwi.nl/~jack - - If I can't dance I don't want to be part of your revolution -- Emma Goldman - From Jack.Jansen at cwi.nl Sat Jul 26 01:16:33 2003 From: Jack.Jansen at cwi.nl (Jack Jansen) Date: Fri Jul 25 18:16:41 2003 Subject: [Pythonmac-SIG] First stab at new MacPython website In-Reply-To: <20030725215001.GA145891@uiuc.edu> Message-ID: On vrijdag, jul 25, 2003, at 23:50 Europe/Amsterdam, Nicholas Riley wrote: > A somewhat related question - why is MacPython not hosted on > python.org? It does make it seem a bit like the neglected stepchild > to have it off on its own site when the Windows/Unix Python versions > are directly there. (Even though using Python on the Mac has been > easier and more fun in the past year than I can ever > remember before... thanks everyone!) The main reason is that I find www.python.org as it is currently organized *far* to daunting for beginning users, and difficult to navigate for power-users. So what I would like to do (with your help!) is organize things on the MacPython website so that both beginners and advanced users are comfortable. But: I'm now using the same tools (ht2html) and structure as www.python.org, and it should be possible to fold the Mac stuff into the main website in the future. -- - Jack Jansen http://www.cwi.nl/~jack - - If I can't dance I don't want to be part of your revolution -- Emma Goldman - From altis at semi-retired.com Fri Jul 25 16:25:39 2003 From: altis at semi-retired.com (Kevin Altis) Date: Fri Jul 25 18:19:05 2003 Subject: [Pythonmac-SIG] First stab at new MacPython website In-Reply-To: <20030725215001.GA145891@uiuc.edu> Message-ID: > From: Nicholas Riley > > A somewhat related question - why is MacPython not hosted on > python.org? It does make it seem a bit like the neglected stepchild > to have it off on its own site when the Windows/Unix Python versions > are directly there. (Even though using Python on the Mac has been > easier and more fun in the past year than I can ever > remember before... thanks everyone!) Good point. Jack already has pydotorg checkin privs, so it would make more sense for the MacPython page(s) to just be hosted on python.org. [This is where Jack explains why he isn't already doing that.] There is a redesign of python.org in progress, so it would also make sense for MacPython pages to follow the new look of python.org that is on the way. http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pydotorg-redesign http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/moinmoin/PydotorgRedesign ka --- Kevin Altis altis@semi-retired.com http://altis.pycs.net/ http://www.pythoncard.org/ From kevino at tulane.edu Fri Jul 25 16:17:43 2003 From: kevino at tulane.edu (Kevin Ollivier) Date: Fri Jul 25 18:20:20 2003 Subject: [Pythonmac-SIG] First stab at new MacPython website In-Reply-To: <40584A1C-BEE9-11D7-B892-000A95686CD8@redivi.com> Message-ID: I personally like the snake, he's kinda cute. :) And I think having a standard icon for all ports would be a nice idea... Not to mention the cartoonish look of the snake would probably make it easy to convert into a pretty OS X style icon, that is if this is indeed open to discussion. ;-) IMHO, the site design doesn't need to stick too much to the download/documentation/community framework open source projects usually take - most of that information simply leads people back to pages on Python.org. I think the site should really just focus on the Mac "addons", maybe sections like the following: Mac Modules, Switching to Mac(Python;), Getting GUI, FAQ. If I went to the MacPython web site, I'd expect to find info on how to do things like control iTunes, maybe Quicktime, write a pyObjC or wxPython app, or maybe learn what PythonLauncher is all about and why I have two Python's installed on my computer. =) Jack, everyone, I think I might want to play with this sometime over the weekend and see about doing a mockup of what I'm talking about. Is that OK? Thanks, Kevin On Friday, July 25, 2003, at 02:45 PM, Bob Ippolito wrote: > I don't think that strange typography ( re: http://www.python.org/ ) > would work, what would you suggest as an alternative? What's wrong > with the snake? Windows has the snake, pygame has a snake :) > > -bob > > On Friday, Jul 25, 2003, at 17:37 America/New_York, Bugbee, Larry > wrote: > >> If there is any chance of a nice logo that does NOT have the snake, I >> and a few others would appreciate it. >> >> Tx, >> >> Larry >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Bob Ippolito [mailto:bob@redivi.com] >> Sent: Friday, July 25, 2003 2:34 PM >> To: Jack Jansen >> Cc: pythonmac-sig@python.org >> Subject: Re: [Pythonmac-SIG] First stab at new MacPython website >> >> >> On Friday, Jul 25, 2003, at 16:57 America/New_York, Jack Jansen wrote: >> >>> Folks, >>> I've created a first stab of the new MacPython website. Please have a >>> look at it, >>> and send comments to the mailing list so we can discuss them. You can >>> find it at >>> . >>> >>> I think I have all the information from the old web page covered, and >>> all the new stuff >>> that is essential. But I would like comments on everything (and, >>> don't >>> worry, >>> you'll be hard-pressed to hurt my ego, so fire away:-), including: >>> >>> - Organisation >> >> Is it necessary to have a side bar and a top bar? There doesn't seem >> to be enough sections to justify this. Also, the top bar is GIGANTIC >> due to the alignment with the really big and ugly icon. It's time to >> get rid of the paperweight and get a sexy icon. I'll talk to some of >> my friends and see if I can con one of them into making a new logo. I >> don't think anyone understands what the 16 ton icon means (anymore?), >> and it obviously wasn't designed to be displayed at that size. >> >>> - graphic design, fonts, colors, etc >> >> The "Special topics" section should behave like the top navigation.. >> meaning, if you're at a particular section, it should remain in the >> navigation but no longer as an anchor tag. >> In Safari 1.0, there does not appear to be a right margin on the page. >> "MacPython is the port "... should probably be stated as "MacPython is >> the official port..." >> Exits doesn't seem terribly useful, especially cause it's not >> consistently there and generally just points to python.org.. Also >> Community is terse enough to be part of Home, especially since the >> c.l.py newsgroup and mailing list is mentioned there where the >> Pythonmac-SIG is more likely to be relevant to a MacPython user. >> >>> - errors, dead links, links going to the wrong place >> >> http://python.sourceforge.net/ (Developers section) is deprecated, >> and >> should be http://www.python.org/dev/ >> >> MacPython Documentation should point to http://www.python.org/doc/ >> (Documentation) .. perhaps even more specific sections such as >> http://www.python.org/doc/current/mac/mac.html >> >> >>> - missing information >> >> Package Manager! >> >>> >>> The latter is especially open for discussion. I was thinking of >>> adding >>> at least a section >>> on GUI programming, but I'm open to sugestions on other things. Also, >>> should I add the MacPython Help files here too, so people can get a >>> quick idea? >> >> -bob >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Pythonmac-SIG maillist - Pythonmac-SIG@python.org >> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pythonmac-sig >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Pythonmac-SIG maillist - Pythonmac-SIG@python.org >> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pythonmac-sig > > > _______________________________________________ > Pythonmac-SIG maillist - Pythonmac-SIG@python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pythonmac-sig > From skip at pobox.com Fri Jul 25 18:28:12 2003 From: skip at pobox.com (Skip Montanaro) Date: Fri Jul 25 18:28:21 2003 Subject: [Pythonmac-SIG] First stab at new MacPython website In-Reply-To: References: <20030725215001.GA145891@uiuc.edu> Message-ID: <16161.44796.138340.273851@montanaro.dyndns.org> Jack> The main reason is that I find www.python.org as it is currently Jack> organized *far* to daunting for beginning users, and difficult to Jack> navigate for power-users. A number of people are actively working on a www.python.org redesign. If anyone's interested, here's the signup form: http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pydotorg-redesign Skip From john at hazen.net Fri Jul 25 20:29:07 2003 From: john at hazen.net (John Hazen) Date: Fri Jul 25 18:37:10 2003 Subject: [Pythonmac-SIG] First stab at new MacPython website In-Reply-To: <20030725215001.GA145891@uiuc.edu> Message-ID: On Fri, 25 Jul 2003, Nicholas Riley wrote: > A somewhat related question - why is MacPython not hosted on > python.org? It does make it seem a bit like the neglected > stepchild to have it off on its own site when the Windows/Unix > Python versions are directly there. This has generated some confusion for me, too. Is MacPython what I get if I compile the CVS on my mac? (I may be getting it confused with some earlier "kitchen sink" version.) If not, what additional features do I get with MacPython? (I didn't see that information on the site.) -John -- John Hazen john@hazen.net eFax: 801.697.4349 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- God was my co-pilot, but we crashed into the mountains and I had to eat him. From Jack.Jansen at cwi.nl Sat Jul 26 01:40:49 2003 From: Jack.Jansen at cwi.nl (Jack Jansen) Date: Fri Jul 25 18:40:57 2003 Subject: [Pythonmac-SIG] First stab at new MacPython website In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <09E787CE-BEF1-11D7-9C27-000A27B19B96@cwi.nl> On vrijdag, jul 25, 2003, at 23:50 Europe/Amsterdam, Bob Ippolito wrote: > Ah, it's hidden away in the MacPython on Mac OS X section.. There > should be a big 'ol screenshot or package listing of what's in Package > Manager.. I think that it's extremely important that people know that > it's there, especially because everyone else has to use the vaults, > dselect, or whatever other method to find and install Python packages. I added a more prominent section on it. > Also in the same section it mentions Cocoa, but without PyObjC Python > has no bindings to Cocoa. You should drop Cocoa or mention PyObjC. > The "Modules that interface too" sentence should use "to", > but I'd probably say "Interfaces for" instead. Fixed. But: are you sure it's "interfaces for", and not "interfaces to"? -- - Jack Jansen http://www.cwi.nl/~jack - - If I can't dance I don't want to be part of your revolution -- Emma Goldman - From kevino at tulane.edu Fri Jul 25 16:42:57 2003 From: kevino at tulane.edu (Kevin Ollivier) Date: Fri Jul 25 18:45:35 2003 Subject: [Pythonmac-SIG] MacPython logo In-Reply-To: <58919798-BEEC-11D7-9C27-000A27B19B96@cwi.nl> Message-ID: <565AB510-BEF1-11D7-B417-000393CB1C86@tulane.edu> On Friday, July 25, 2003, at 03:07 PM, Jack Jansen wrote: > Let's please take the logo discussion to a different thread, so it > doesn't overwhelm > the rest of the website discussion. > > On vrijdag, jul 25, 2003, at 23:45 Europe/Amsterdam, Bob Ippolito > wrote: > >> I don't think that strange typography ( re: http://www.python.org/ ) >> would work, what would you suggest as an alternative? What's wrong >> with the snake? Windows has the snake, pygame has a snake :) > > The strange typography has one showstopper problem for me: you can't > use it for the program > icon. We need something that can be used on the website, the program > icon and all sorts > of related icons (documents, helper apps) and probably more eventually > (installer backdrop, > etc). > > *If* we go for something snake-y I insist it be an "Apple Snake", i.e. > something that > looks like a real snake, or real snakeskin, or some such. The 4-color > Windows snake is > simply too ugly for words. I think making it look like a real snake would be a bad thing - I'm not even allowed to leave my Python pocket reference face up at home because the snake on the cover creeps out my wife. Folks, if we use a real snake icon, I may be forbidden to use Python on my PowerBook because she uses it too. ^_^; Of course, she actually likes the cartoony snake - she thinks it's cute too. ;-) > I agree that the current cartoon-weight has had it's time. I think my > preference would > be to update it to an "Apple 16 Tonne weight", if you get my drift, > but I'm open to any good design (and, as always, I'll defer to the > majority anyway). > > Note that the fact that the connection to Python is thin for many > people isn't necessarily a problem: it's more important that it's used > consistently. After all, what's the connection between Tcl/Tk and a > quill? Photoshop Elements and a sunflower? Retrospect and a cube? cube = box = packing = archive = backup (could also be memory spaces/boxes ) sunflower = warm, colorful, springtime = happy memories, good times = photos of good times = photo editor quill = writing = 'scripting' = scripting language = Tcl/Tk At least those would be MY guesses. =) In all seriousness, though, Mac apps tend to be pretty good about having icons that associate themselves somehow with the program they are for. I can't find an icon on my dock right now which I can say doesn't give any indication, be it a symbol or letter, of what app it belongs too. Anyways. For Python, I think a cartoonish, non-creepy and non-threatening snake is the best bet, although you could go with an Applescript-style script icon with the snake icon below it, or something like that... that brings the idea home just as well. Or a snake with a quill in his mouth? ^_^ Thanks, Kevin From gandreas at delver.com Fri Jul 25 18:45:35 2003 From: gandreas at delver.com (Glenn Andreas) Date: Fri Jul 25 18:45:46 2003 Subject: [Pythonmac-SIG] MacPython logo Message-ID: >Let's please take the logo discussion to a different thread, so it >doesn't overwhelm >the rest of the website discussion. > >On vrijdag, jul 25, 2003, at 23:45 Europe/Amsterdam, Bob Ippolito wrote: > >>I don't think that strange typography ( re: http://www.python.org/ >>) would work, what would you suggest as an alternative? What's >>wrong with the snake? Windows has the snake, pygame has a snake :) > >The strange typography has one showstopper problem for me: you can't >use it for the program >icon. We need something that can be used on the website, the program >icon and all sorts >of related icons (documents, helper apps) and probably more >eventually (installer backdrop, >etc). > >*If* we go for something snake-y I insist it be an "Apple Snake", >i.e. something that >looks like a real snake, or real snakeskin, or some such. The >4-color Windows snake is >simply too ugly for words. If you like the icon I used in my recent release of PyOXIDE, I'd be willing to donate the basic image to the cause (I've got her in a stand alone version without the staggered documents underneath - http://gandreas.dsl.visi.com:8000/IndyIcon.tif - note that the "black" is just the way that quicktime renders the transparent part of the tiff). I've also got a couple of other poses of her, or I could see if she'd be willing to try to curl around a real apple (but being a snake, she isn't the most cooperative for staged poses). And she is a real python, too.. Glenn Andreas gandreas@delver.com Author of Macintosh games: Theldrow 2.3, Blobbo 1.0.2, Cythera 1.0.2 Be good, and you will be lonesome From bob at redivi.com Fri Jul 25 19:51:09 2003 From: bob at redivi.com (Bob Ippolito) Date: Fri Jul 25 18:51:16 2003 Subject: [Pythonmac-SIG] MacPython logo In-Reply-To: <58919798-BEEC-11D7-9C27-000A27B19B96@cwi.nl> Message-ID: <7B722E7B-BEF2-11D7-B892-000A95686CD8@redivi.com> On Friday, Jul 25, 2003, at 18:07 America/New_York, Jack Jansen wrote: > Let's please take the logo discussion to a different thread, so it > doesn't overwhelm > the rest of the website discussion. > > On vrijdag, jul 25, 2003, at 23:45 Europe/Amsterdam, Bob Ippolito > wrote: > >> I don't think that strange typography ( re: http://www.python.org/ ) >> would work, what would you suggest as an alternative? What's wrong >> with the snake? Windows has the snake, pygame has a snake :) > > The strange typography has one showstopper problem for me: you can't > use it for the program > icon. We need something that can be used on the website, the program > icon and all sorts > of related icons (documents, helper apps) and probably more eventually > (installer backdrop, > etc). Exactly, and I don't think most of them are aesthetically pleasing anyways, other than the "cloud" one on the front page, I like that one. > > *If* we go for something snake-y I insist it be an "Apple Snake", i.e. > something that > looks like a real snake, or real snakeskin, or some such. The 4-color > Windows snake is > simply too ugly for words. I agree completely. The pygame guys didn't do a terrible job.. the OS X icon I made out if looked pretty decent as an icon: http://cvs.seul.org/cgi-bin/cvsweb-1.80.cgi/~checkout~/games/pygame/ lib/pygame_icon.tiff?rev=1.1&content-type=image/tiff > > I agree that the current cartoon-weight has had it's time. I think my > preference would > be to update it to an "Apple 16 Tonne weight", if you get my drift, > but I'm open to any good design (and, as always, I'll defer to the > majority anyway). I'm partial to snakey things. I'm not Dutch enough to still readily associate Python with the Monty variety ;) > Note that the fact that the connection to Python is thin for many > people isn't necessarily a problem: it's more important that it's used > consistently. After all, what's the connection between Tcl/Tk and a > quill? Photoshop Elements and a sunflower? Retrospect and a cube? Well, nobody said Tcl/Tk's icon was any good for OS X (and besides, Tk doesn't work NEARLY as well as it could on OS X.. I can't imagine there's a really large userbase for it).. IMHO, the current 16 ton weight is way better, at least you know what it is when it's small. Nobody ever said Adobe was any good at HIG compliance -- I mean, look at Acrobat Reader, and that comes with OS X. Photoshop Elements and Retrospect are probably just bad examples. Almost all of Apple's icons make sense, Virtual PC makes sense, the Hydra icon makes sense, etc. -bob From kevino at tulane.edu Fri Jul 25 16:50:54 2003 From: kevino at tulane.edu (Kevin Ollivier) Date: Fri Jul 25 18:53:31 2003 Subject: [Pythonmac-SIG] First stab at new MacPython website In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <72840B2E-BEF2-11D7-B417-000393CB1C86@tulane.edu> Just another thought, looking at this re-design of Python.org.... http://www.pollenation.net/assets/public/index_rounded.html It offers a happy compromise between having 'generic' sections, but having pointers to 'most wanted' documentation available from the front page. (i.e. About->For Win users, About->For *nix Users) This is actually quite a nice site both in terms of look and feel, and accomodating users from different backgrounds. What do you guys think about using something like this? Thanks, Kevin On Friday, July 25, 2003, at 03:17 PM, Kevin Ollivier wrote: > I personally like the snake, he's kinda cute. :) And I think having a > standard icon for all ports would be a nice idea... Not to mention the > cartoonish look of the snake would probably make it easy to convert > into a pretty OS X style icon, that is if this is indeed open to > discussion. ;-) > > IMHO, the site design doesn't need to stick too much to the > download/documentation/community framework open source projects > usually take - most of that information simply leads people back to > pages on Python.org. I think the site should really just focus on the > Mac "addons", maybe sections like the following: Mac Modules, > Switching to Mac(Python;), Getting GUI, FAQ. If I went to the > MacPython web site, I'd expect to find info on how to do things like > control iTunes, maybe Quicktime, write a pyObjC or wxPython app, or > maybe learn what PythonLauncher is all about and why I have two > Python's installed on my computer. =) > > Jack, everyone, I think I might want to play with this sometime over > the weekend and see about doing a mockup of what I'm talking about. Is > that OK? > > Thanks, > > Kevin > > On Friday, July 25, 2003, at 02:45 PM, Bob Ippolito wrote: > >> I don't think that strange typography ( re: http://www.python.org/ ) >> would work, what would you suggest as an alternative? What's wrong >> with the snake? Windows has the snake, pygame has a snake :) >> >> -bob >> >> On Friday, Jul 25, 2003, at 17:37 America/New_York, Bugbee, Larry >> wrote: >> >>> If there is any chance of a nice logo that does NOT have the snake, >>> I and a few others would appreciate it. >>> >>> Tx, >>> >>> Larry >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Bob Ippolito [mailto:bob@redivi.com] >>> Sent: Friday, July 25, 2003 2:34 PM >>> To: Jack Jansen >>> Cc: pythonmac-sig@python.org >>> Subject: Re: [Pythonmac-SIG] First stab at new MacPython website >>> >>> >>> On Friday, Jul 25, 2003, at 16:57 America/New_York, Jack Jansen >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Folks, >>>> I've created a first stab of the new MacPython website. Please have >>>> a >>>> look at it, >>>> and send comments to the mailing list so we can discuss them. You >>>> can >>>> find it at >>>> . >>>> >>>> I think I have all the information from the old web page covered, >>>> and >>>> all the new stuff >>>> that is essential. But I would like comments on everything (and, >>>> don't >>>> worry, >>>> you'll be hard-pressed to hurt my ego, so fire away:-), including: >>>> >>>> - Organisation >>> >>> Is it necessary to have a side bar and a top bar? There doesn't seem >>> to be enough sections to justify this. Also, the top bar is GIGANTIC >>> due to the alignment with the really big and ugly icon. It's time to >>> get rid of the paperweight and get a sexy icon. I'll talk to some of >>> my friends and see if I can con one of them into making a new logo. >>> I >>> don't think anyone understands what the 16 ton icon means (anymore?), >>> and it obviously wasn't designed to be displayed at that size. >>> >>>> - graphic design, fonts, colors, etc >>> >>> The "Special topics" section should behave like the top navigation.. >>> meaning, if you're at a particular section, it should remain in the >>> navigation but no longer as an anchor tag. >>> In Safari 1.0, there does not appear to be a right margin on the >>> page. >>> "MacPython is the port "... should probably be stated as "MacPython >>> is >>> the official port..." >>> Exits doesn't seem terribly useful, especially cause it's not >>> consistently there and generally just points to python.org.. Also >>> Community is terse enough to be part of Home, especially since the >>> c.l.py newsgroup and mailing list is mentioned there where the >>> Pythonmac-SIG is more likely to be relevant to a MacPython user. >>> >>>> - errors, dead links, links going to the wrong place >>> >>> http://python.sourceforge.net/ (Developers section) is deprecated, >>> and >>> should be http://www.python.org/dev/ >>> >>> MacPython Documentation should point to http://www.python.org/doc/ >>> (Documentation) .. perhaps even more specific sections such as >>> http://www.python.org/doc/current/mac/mac.html >>> >>> >>>> - missing information >>> >>> Package Manager! >>> >>>> >>>> The latter is especially open for discussion. I was thinking of >>>> adding >>>> at least a section >>>> on GUI programming, but I'm open to sugestions on other things. >>>> Also, >>>> should I add the MacPython Help files here too, so people can get a >>>> quick idea? >>> >>> -bob >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Pythonmac-SIG maillist - Pythonmac-SIG@python.org >>> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pythonmac-sig >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Pythonmac-SIG maillist - Pythonmac-SIG@python.org >>> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pythonmac-sig >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Pythonmac-SIG maillist - Pythonmac-SIG@python.org >> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pythonmac-sig >> > > > _______________________________________________ > Pythonmac-SIG maillist - Pythonmac-SIG@python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pythonmac-sig > From Jack.Jansen at cwi.nl Sat Jul 26 01:56:42 2003 From: Jack.Jansen at cwi.nl (Jack Jansen) Date: Fri Jul 25 18:56:53 2003 Subject: [Pythonmac-SIG] First stab at new MacPython website In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <4252BEC0-BEF3-11D7-9C27-000A27B19B96@cwi.nl> On vrijdag, jul 25, 2003, at 23:34 Europe/Amsterdam, Bob Ippolito wrote: > Is it necessary to have a side bar and a top bar? This is because I want to be able to integrate this with www.python.org at some point. Note that the top bar is system-wide, the side bar is per-section. > There doesn't seem to be enough sections to justify this. Also, the > top bar is GIGANTIC due to the alignment with the really big and ugly > icon. I've taken the icon discussion to another thread. But whatever we do, I think we are stuck with something approximately square, which means the uglyness stays. I can see two ways out of this: - think of two or three more things to put in the top bar, and make it a 4x2 matrix. - add icons, similar to those on OSX applications. > The "Special topics" section should behave like the top navigation.. > meaning, if you're at a particular section, it should remain in the > navigation but no longer as an anchor tag. See above. > In Safari 1.0, there does not appear to be a right margin on the page. I noticed that too. Does anyone know the right css magic to fix this? > "MacPython is the port "... should probably be stated as "MacPython is > the official port..." Hmm... > Exits doesn't seem terribly useful, especially cause it's not > consistently there and generally just points to python.org.. It is intended to be page-specific and allow quick navigation to related sites, such as the fink site on the "other pythons" page. > Also Community is terse enough to be part of Home, especially since > the c.l.py newsgroup and mailing list is mentioned there where the > Pythonmac-SIG is more likely to be relevant to a MacPython user. This page definitely needs work (it's the last one I did tonight:-). I would like to keep it separate, though, as this is where I initially also want to put links to all the good stuff you lot come up with:-) > >> - errors, dead links, links going to the wrong place > > http://python.sourceforge.net/ (Developers section) is deprecated, > and should be http://www.python.org/dev/ Fixed. > > MacPython Documentation should point to http://www.python.org/doc/ > (Documentation) .. perhaps even more specific sections such as > http://www.python.org/doc/current/mac/mac.html Fixed. -- - Jack Jansen http://www.cwi.nl/~jack - - If I can't dance I don't want to be part of your revolution -- Emma Goldman - From Jack.Jansen at cwi.nl Sat Jul 26 02:06:03 2003 From: Jack.Jansen at cwi.nl (Jack Jansen) Date: Fri Jul 25 19:06:12 2003 Subject: [Pythonmac-SIG] MacPython logo In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <90B612B4-BEF4-11D7-9C27-000A27B19B96@cwi.nl> On zaterdag, jul 26, 2003, at 00:30 Europe/Amsterdam, Glenn Andreas wrote: > If you like the icon I used in my recent release of PyOXIDE, I'd be > willing to donate the basic image to the cause (I've got her in a > stand alone version without the staggered documents underneath - > http://gandreas.dsl.visi.com:8000/IndyIcon.tif - note that the "black" > is just the way that quicktime renders the transparent part of the > tiff). This is a *really* nice one! One minor nit: the lighting is incorrect for Aqua, but as I get the impression that you have access to the actual snake this sounds fixable, right? Either the snake curled up as she is now, or wrapped around an apple, or eating an apple, or whatever, wold work for me. It would have to remain square-ish, though. Hmm, if you indeed have the actual snake it could solve the homepage problem too: get a different picture of the same snake, which is more horizontally oriented. -- - Jack Jansen http://www.cwi.nl/~jack - - If I can't dance I don't want to be part of your revolution -- Emma Goldman - From Jack.Jansen at cwi.nl Sat Jul 26 02:14:24 2003 From: Jack.Jansen at cwi.nl (Jack Jansen) Date: Fri Jul 25 19:14:32 2003 Subject: [Pythonmac-SIG] First stab at new MacPython website In-Reply-To: <72840B2E-BEF2-11D7-B417-000393CB1C86@tulane.edu> Message-ID: Just a quick note that I am aware of the work going on at pydotorg wrt. the redesign of www.python.org, I'm also on the mailing list. That's one of the reasons for sticking to the www.python.org tools and organisation of things: it should allow us to tack on to that once it's finished. At least: I assume the various new layouts are either ht2html-compatible, or there will be an easy way to convert things. And now I'm off for a well-earned beer after a day of long and hard work, -- - Jack Jansen http://www.cwi.nl/~jack - - If I can't dance I don't want to be part of your revolution -- Emma Goldman - From Jack.Jansen at cwi.nl Sat Jul 26 02:21:17 2003 From: Jack.Jansen at cwi.nl (Jack Jansen) Date: Fri Jul 25 19:21:25 2003 Subject: [Pythonmac-SIG] MacPython logo In-Reply-To: <7B722E7B-BEF2-11D7-B892-000A95686CD8@redivi.com> Message-ID: I think I'm not in favor of a cartoonish icon. To me the major distinguishing factor of Aqua icons is that they look so life-like. Imagine seeing Glen's Python and the Windows cartoon side-by-side, which one would look better? The only advantage of the cartoons is that they remain much more recognizable at really small sizes: the purple weight still sort-of works at 4x4 pixels. -- - Jack Jansen http://www.cwi.nl/~jack - - If I can't dance I don't want to be part of your revolution -- Emma Goldman - From bob at redivi.com Fri Jul 25 20:40:03 2003 From: bob at redivi.com (Bob Ippolito) Date: Fri Jul 25 19:40:11 2003 Subject: [Pythonmac-SIG] MacPython logo In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5040CCB7-BEF9-11D7-B892-000A95686CD8@redivi.com> On Friday, Jul 25, 2003, at 19:21 America/New_York, Jack Jansen wrote: > I think I'm not in favor of a cartoonish icon. To me the major > distinguishing factor > of Aqua icons is that they look so life-like. > > Imagine seeing Glen's Python and the Windows cartoon side-by-side, > which one > would look better? > The only advantage of the cartoons is that they remain much more > recognizable at really small > sizes: the purple weight still sort-of works at 4x4 pixels. I'm for it being drawn.. It should look good small, and it should work as a document icon too. If that can be done with a photo, that's great, but I don't think it'll work within the constraints. -bob From gandreas at delver.com Fri Jul 25 19:40:46 2003 From: gandreas at delver.com (Glenn Andreas) Date: Fri Jul 25 19:43:05 2003 Subject: [Pythonmac-SIG] MacPython logo In-Reply-To: <90B612B4-BEF4-11D7-9C27-000A27B19B96@cwi.nl> References: <90B612B4-BEF4-11D7-9C27-000A27B19B96@cwi.nl> Message-ID: At 1:06 AM +0200 7/26/03, Jack Jansen wrote: >On zaterdag, jul 26, 2003, at 00:30 Europe/Amsterdam, Glenn Andreas wrote: >>If you like the icon I used in my recent release of PyOXIDE, I'd be >>willing to donate the basic image to the cause (I've got her in a >>stand alone version without the staggered documents underneath - >>http://gandreas.dsl.visi.com:8000/IndyIcon.tif - note that the >>"black" is just the way that quicktime renders the transparent part >>of the tiff). > >This is a *really* nice one! One minor nit: the lighting is >incorrect for Aqua, but as I get the impression that you have access >to the actual snake this sounds fixable, right? Well, that more up to her, of course (she tends to have three mood - "shy/sluggish/curled up", "active/exporing/doesn't sit still", and "hungry" - the third is the most uncooperative) > >Either the snake curled up as she is now, or wrapped around an >apple, or eating an apple, or whatever, wold work for me. It would >have to remain square-ish, though. > >Hmm, if you indeed have the actual snake it could solve the homepage >problem too: get a different picture of the same snake, which is >more horizontally oriented. As just a quick test, I took another photo I had which is from a different angle (and thus hopefully more correct shadow), though she is pointing away, but it takes up a bit less room on the image, making it potentially easier to combine with other elements. Since it was a quick preview, it doesn't have transparency either (and needs a bit of retouching) http://gandreas.dsl.visi.com:8000/IndyIcon2.tif The first reduces halfways OK down to 32x32, though this one get a bit muddier... If you need larger images for the website, let me know the dimension and I'll see what I can do (assuming, of course, people actually like the "photo-realistic" version) Glenn Andreas gandreas@delver.com Author of Macintosh games: Theldrow 2.3, Blobbo 1.0.2, Cythera 1.0.2 Be good, and you will be lonesome From kevino at tulane.edu Fri Jul 25 18:12:15 2003 From: kevino at tulane.edu (Kevin Ollivier) Date: Fri Jul 25 20:15:06 2003 Subject: [Pythonmac-SIG] MacPython logo In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Friday, July 25, 2003, at 04:21 PM, Jack Jansen wrote: > I think I'm not in favor of a cartoonish icon. To me the major > distinguishing factor > of Aqua icons is that they look so life-like. > > Imagine seeing Glen's Python and the Windows cartoon side-by-side, > which one > would look better? As a program icon? The Windows cartoon. Apple states the icons should be both "colorful and inviting." While the Windows icon, due somewhat to its small size and old Windows icon color limitations, isn't quite lifelike or colorful, I personally would not consider a picture of Glenn's python to be considerably inviting. (In fact, no offense to Glenn, while it is an awesome snake I can see some people who don't like snakes being bothered by it.) The Windows snake icon would probably benefit considerably by having an OS X style icon made of it. > The only advantage of the cartoons is that they remain much more > recognizable at really small > sizes: the purple weight still sort-of works at 4x4 pixels. Apple's icons are life-like but stylized; to me they realistic but also look much different than photos. IMHO, if they used real photographs for the Apple icons, they would be considerably more dull and boring. I've seen a couple programs where the icons used were from photographs, and when you see them next to OS X icons the photos seem out of place, and this is of course because they don't adhere to the Aqua HIG like other icons do. Kevin From rafferty29 at mchsi.com Fri Jul 25 20:43:35 2003 From: rafferty29 at mchsi.com (Rob Bedford) Date: Fri Jul 25 20:44:00 2003 Subject: [Pythonmac-SIG] The site looks great Message-ID: <30C07C59-BF02-11D7-8FAE-00039374C97A@mchsi.com> And I vote for a flying rabbit for the icon :-) From Jack.Jansen at cwi.nl Sat Jul 26 12:55:19 2003 From: Jack.Jansen at cwi.nl (Jack Jansen) Date: Sat Jul 26 05:55:30 2003 Subject: [Pythonmac-SIG] The site looks great In-Reply-To: <30C07C59-BF02-11D7-8FAE-00039374C97A@mchsi.com> Message-ID: <43F788A2-BF4F-11D7-891C-000A27B19B96@cwi.nl> On zaterdag, jul 26, 2003, at 02:43 Europe/Amsterdam, Rob Bedford wrote: > And I vote for a flying rabbit for the icon :-) Yes! Or even better, exploding! Or a flying dead cow! "Bring out the holy handgranade"! -- - Jack Jansen http://www.cwi.nl/~jack - - If I can't dance I don't want to be part of your revolution -- Emma Goldman - From chris at grabil.ca Sat Jul 26 11:13:39 2003 From: chris at grabil.ca (Chris) Date: Sat Jul 26 10:14:33 2003 Subject: [Pythonmac-SIG] Python site Message-ID: <20030726101339289391.GyazMail.chris@grabil.ca> I think the snake thing is too intrenched. It has nothing to do with the original Python which as you know refers to Monty Python's Flying Circus. According to The BCC the program was to be called "Flying Circus" (AKA the Red Baron) but it didn't seen to stick. While in production somebody came up with the term " Monty Python's Flying Circus" and the rest is history. As the BBC says: "But as planning for the series became more confused, the BBC management began to refer to the team as a 'flying circus' - inspired by the Red Baron's World War One fighter squadron. With the addition of the random moniker Monty Python, the name gained general approval. " http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/special_report/1999/10/99/monty_python/455585.stm So we have a scripting language called Python and we are stuck with the snake. I kinda wish it had been called "nudge, nudge, wink, wink" or SPAM,SPAM,SPAMMedy,SPAM or the "Dead Parrot". Let me have a look at it. I have 30 years of graphics experience and love to do AQUA in Photoshop! Still need your ideas though... Chris Dwyer From kevin at macosx.com Sun Jul 27 02:21:04 2003 From: kevin at macosx.com (kevin) Date: Sat Jul 26 12:21:23 2003 Subject: [Pythonmac-SIG] Re: MacPython logo Message-ID: <27CAC137-BF85-11D7-B38E-003065555ABC@macosx.com> It's trivial i know but i have to plead, please! No photorealistic snakes! With all the cool Monty Python possibilities there has to be some better idea for an icon. How about something that looks like a Terry Gilliam Drawing? I showed my girlfriend the possible photo-realistic snake icon and she yelled at me and ran out of the room. -kp-- From kevin at macosx.com Sun Jul 27 02:40:05 2003 From: kevin at macosx.com (kevin) Date: Sat Jul 26 12:40:24 2003 Subject: [Pythonmac-SIG] Re: MacPython logo Message-ID: Why not a foot like the one in the opening sequence.... Like you see here : http://www.digitalmediafx.com/Features/terry-gilliam.html I dunno, anything but the snake, if you ask me.... (i know, i know no one is asking....) back to work -kp-- From ariza at flexatone.net Sat Jul 26 13:36:36 2003 From: ariza at flexatone.net (christopher ariza) Date: Sat Jul 26 12:46:08 2003 Subject: [Pythonmac-SIG] MacPython logo Message-ID: concerning the icon, i have to say that i kinda liked the more abstract 'weight' image than depictions of snakes. a friend of mine came back from romania with this scale that had various sized weights; they reminded me of the MacPython logo. i had been meaning to try to make one into an aqua-ish icon but didnt get around to it until this discussion came up. here is a stab, not so good, but maybe some one can draw a better one. the original color was brass, so i changed it to blueish to align with the previous icon. notice, this weight is 10 grams rather than 16 tons! http://www.flexatone.net/transport/macPython.jpg http://www.flexatone.net/transport/macPython.icns ________________________________________ christopher ariza \ http://flexatone.net From Jack.Jansen at cwi.nl Sat Jul 26 19:48:46 2003 From: Jack.Jansen at cwi.nl (Jack Jansen) Date: Sat Jul 26 12:48:54 2003 Subject: [Pythonmac-SIG] Re: MacPython logo In-Reply-To: <27CAC137-BF85-11D7-B38E-003065555ABC@macosx.com> Message-ID: <060C412C-BF89-11D7-AA02-000A27B19B96@cwi.nl> On second thoughts I think I'm also not in favor of a real photo of a real Python. The points made here (about being difficult to shrink and such) are indeed correct. It needs to be something that is drawn, so it can be fixed up for low resolution. As the pro-monty, pro-snake, anti-monty and anti-snake teams seem to be more-or-less balanced my preference is that we first try an aqua-style 16 ton weight, for continuity reasons. The runner up would be an aqua-snake for me, because it would compare nicely to the windows cartoon-snake. But, of course, if someone can come up with an icon that we could do in Terry-Gilliam-Cartoon-Style that will invoke the idea "Monty Python!" in every viewer (without actually infringing on copyrights) I could be swayed... -- - Jack Jansen http://www.cwi.nl/~jack - - If I can't dance I don't want to be part of your revolution -- Emma Goldman - From deleeuw at stat.ucla.edu Sat Jul 26 11:28:09 2003 From: deleeuw at stat.ucla.edu (Jan de Leeuw) Date: Sat Jul 26 13:28:09 2003 Subject: [Pythonmac-SIG] logo Message-ID: <86535D1A-BF8E-11D7-8EF9-000393BB6D36@stat.ucla.edu> 1. The real snake is too life-like for an icon. 2. How about the Crushing Foot. Or some flying circus tents. Or a spam can. 3. Why is this a Dutch thing ? 4. Maybe Terry Gilliam reads this list. === Jan de Leeuw; Professor and Chair, UCLA Department of Statistics; Editor: Journal of Multivariate Analysis, Journal of Statistical Software US mail: 9432 Boelter Hall, Box 951554, Los Angeles, CA 90095-1554 phone (310)-825-9550; fax (310)-206-5658; email: deleeuw@stat.ucla.edu homepage: http://gifi.stat.ucla.edu ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------- No matter where you go, there you are. --- Buckaroo Banzai http://gifi.stat.ucla.edu/sounds/nomatter.au ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------- From skip at pobox.com Sat Jul 26 13:55:23 2003 From: skip at pobox.com (Skip Montanaro) Date: Sat Jul 26 13:55:30 2003 Subject: [Pythonmac-SIG] logo In-Reply-To: <86535D1A-BF8E-11D7-8EF9-000393BB6D36@stat.ucla.edu> References: <86535D1A-BF8E-11D7-8EF9-000393BB6D36@stat.ucla.edu> Message-ID: <16162.49291.949741.338635@montanaro.dyndns.org> Jan> 1. The real snake is too life-like for an icon. I didn't see the snake. When I visited (what I think was) the proposed logo all I saw was a little sphere. Can someone who still has the URL point me at it? Jan> 2. How about the Crushing Foot. Or some flying circus tents. Jan> Or a spam can. Isn't the 16-ton weight a Monty Python reference? Sorry, I guess I'm not as much of a Monty Python fan as I ought to be. That was so many years ago. ;-) Skip From kevino at tulane.edu Sat Jul 26 12:04:29 2003 From: kevino at tulane.edu (Kevin Ollivier) Date: Sat Jul 26 14:07:16 2003 Subject: [Pythonmac-SIG] logo In-Reply-To: <16162.49291.949741.338635@montanaro.dyndns.org> Message-ID: <9A3B7F72-BF93-11D7-B417-000393CB1C86@tulane.edu> On Saturday, July 26, 2003, at 10:55 AM, Skip Montanaro wrote: > > Jan> 1. The real snake is too life-like for an icon. > > I didn't see the snake. When I visited (what I think was) the > proposed logo > all I saw was a little sphere. Can someone who still has the URL > point me > at it? I saw a little ball too, at first, when I viewed it with Safari. Viewing it in another browser resolved the issue for me. > Jan> 2. How about the Crushing Foot. Or some flying circus tents. > Jan> Or a spam can. > > Isn't the 16-ton weight a Monty Python reference? Sorry, I guess I'm > not as > much of a Monty Python fan as I ought to be. That was so many years > ago. ;-) Yes, it is. I believe it was a running joke in one of the episodes, they kept dropping a 16-ton weight on people who went on and on about things. I can't remember which episode though. ;-) Kevin From kevino at tulane.edu Sat Jul 26 12:42:53 2003 From: kevino at tulane.edu (Kevin Ollivier) Date: Sat Jul 26 14:45:32 2003 Subject: [Pythonmac-SIG] Python site In-Reply-To: <20030726101339289391.GyazMail.chris@grabil.ca> Message-ID: On Saturday, July 26, 2003, at 07:13 AM, Chris wrote: > I think the snake thing is too intrenched. It has nothing > to do with the original Python which as you know refers to > Monty Python's Flying Circus. > > According to The BCC the program was to be called "Flying > Circus" (AKA the Red Baron) but it didn't seen to stick. > While in production somebody came up with the term " Monty > Python's Flying Circus" and the rest is history. > > As the BBC says: > > "But as planning for the series became more confused, the > BBC management began to refer to the team as a 'flying > circus' - inspired by the Red Baron's World War One fighter > squadron. > With the addition of the random moniker Monty Python, the > name gained general approval. " > http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/special_report/1999/10/99/monty_python/ > 455585.stm > > So we have a scripting language called Python and we are > stuck with the snake. I kinda wish it had been called > "nudge, nudge, wink, wink" or SPAM,SPAM,SPAMMedy,SPAM or > the "Dead Parrot". Believe it or not, there is a language named after the Dead Parrot, called apt-ly enough, "Parrot". ;-) It started as an April Fool's joke by Guido and Larry Wall (creator of Perl) about a hybrid Python/Perl syntax, and apparently someone took the idea seriously... (I mean, even after they announced that they weren't serious!) While I would consider myself a pretty avid Monty Python fan, I do have to say that I think people get a bit bored with the jokes if they are too often or too constant. While I'm not against icons like a smashing foot (which I do think more MP fans will recognize than the 16-ton weight!), the fact is that many people will simply not know what it means - it makes me feel like its an 'in-joke', something some people are privileged to get, while others just scratch their head and say 'huh'? The snake, however, is pretty much universally recognizable. What I actually like about the "Windows" snake is that he looks friendly and playful to me, which IMHO perfectly sums up my feelings of the Python community. Having said all this, if we wanted to go with a "Monty" Python icon, I would vote for the graaaaiiiillll. =) Aside from being possibly the center of MP's most popular work, it at least has connotations that non-MP fans can recognize. (MP fans recognize the reference, while non-MP fans can think that Python is the "holy grail" of scripting languages! ;-) I don't think the Grail browser is really being maintained anymore, so I doubt there would be a conflict there. AND, if someone were to do up a grail following Apple's HIG, I bet it would look truly cool. Or, to make everyone happy, we could have a grail and the little smiling snake head poking out. ;-) And BTW, so that no one thinks I am against references to MP within Python, I am all for references like "SPAM", and the occasional (but not expected) appearance of the Spanish Inquisition. And actually, I think the flying rabbit would make an extremely cool demo of how to move images along the screen (i.e. like in wxPython or PyGame), and you could have it biting the necks of the knights to show collision detection. =) ANYWAYS... ;-) > Let me have a look at it. I have 30 years of graphics > experience and love to do AQUA in Photoshop! Speaking of which, can Aqua text still look appropriate at font sizes 18-24px? I was playing around with an image of the 'MacPython' text (with the Mac in Aqua and maybe the Python using the standard 'bubbly' design) to go in that big empty space on the right hand bar of the site, but I would have to do the Aqua text at very large sizes, and it wouldn't look appropriate when I shrank it down. I could use Photoshop effects to get a blue, shiny and embossed look, but it still wasn't 'Aqua'. Of course, I don't have 30 years of graphics experience so I'm not sure if the Aqua look is feasible like that - In fact, I don't even have 30 years of experience period yet! =) Kevin From altis at semi-retired.com Sat Jul 26 12:57:56 2003 From: altis at semi-retired.com (Kevin Altis) Date: Sat Jul 26 14:51:24 2003 Subject: [Pythonmac-SIG] FutureWarning in Carbon/Controls.py Message-ID: While building a wxPython standalone with bundlebuilder.py I got the following warning that I hadn't seen before. Just in case this is an issue for 2.3rc2 I thought I should bring it up here. Finding module dependencies /Library/Frameworks/Python.framework/Versions/2.3/lib/python2.3/plat- mac/Carbon/Controls.py:11: FutureWarning: hex/oct constants > sys.maxint will return positive values in Python 2.4 and up kDataBrowserClientPropertyFlagsMask = 0xFF000000 ka From bobsavage at mac.com Sat Jul 26 15:49:51 2003 From: bobsavage at mac.com (Bob Savage) Date: Sat Jul 26 15:50:16 2003 Subject: [Pythonmac-SIG] MacPython logo In-Reply-To: <30C07C59-BF02-11D7-8FAE-00039374C97A@mchsi.com> Message-ID: <51E1A3C3-BFA2-11D7-A489-00306547CFF0@mac.com> On Friday, July 25, 2003, at 07:43 PM, Rob Bedford wrote: > And I vote for a flying rabbit for the icon :-) Someone willing to think different! Just because people have made a snake the symbol of Python, doesn't mean we need to follow. I don't have any strong opinions, except for the point Jack made: once established, it's use should be consistent. As to drawn or photo-realistic, I agree with what someone (Kevin?) said about the point being that it looks good and that that is not the same as photo-realism. Now "cartoony" does seem to imply a low quality, but "hand drawn" could be just as high quality, and even more so than a photograph. I think we have three main options: (1) a snake (2) a symbol referring to a classic sketch, (e.g. weight, rabbit, cheese shop) (3) a tribute to a cast member (e.g. Idle) #1 (Snake) has the following drawbacks There is the general ickiness factor that has been reported here (although I don't care, it is apparently is a big deal for many people). Also what does one think of when one thinks of a python, dangerous, cold ... the best thing you might say would be powerful. All of this works in the Linux community, but is inappropriate (IMHO) for the Mac-using crowd. Obvious, done to death, does nothing to distinguish the Mac version. #2 (Sketch reference) seems to have the following potential drawbacks: Could be obscure. Could be difficult to express iconically (the Spanish Inquisition as an icon?) #3 (Cast tribute) The biggest drawback here seems to be that you have to either use a symbol that at least seems like a pun on one of their names (and none seem obvious to me -- chap man?) or you need to use a portrait (drawing or photo) of them, which would get into licensing issues better left unearthed. I think we should explore option number two deeper, come up with a list of likely candidates, and then let people try to do come up with representations at or above the AQUA icon Max, as well as scaled versions for display at smaller resolutions, then if something stands out as a strong contender we'll know it. BTW, anyone wondering if the weight could be done as a nice looking graphic should check this out: For someone wondering what to try drawing/imaging, how about one of "Hell's Grannies"? Bob From alexis.layton at post.harvard.edu Sat Jul 26 17:16:43 2003 From: alexis.layton at post.harvard.edu (Alexis Layton) Date: Sat Jul 26 16:17:19 2003 Subject: [Pythonmac-SIG] MacPython logo In-Reply-To: <51E1A3C3-BFA2-11D7-A489-00306547CFF0@mac.com> Message-ID: <12D13498-BFA6-11D7-AB06-000A957D895E@post.harvard.edu> The great thing about pythons is that you can wrap them about things. Why not have an icon depicting a python lovingly squeezing the base of an iMac, with its head facing the iMac screen (with apple logo?) and its tongue lolling out? (I envision the iMac in 3/4 profile....) Or wrap a python about a G5.... I wish I were an artist and could draw it. Or perhaps Glen can coax his herpatious friend into wrapping itself about whatever mac he has lying around.... :-) ---- Alexis Layton 2130 Massachusetts Ave. Apt. 6E Cambridge, MA 02140-1917 alexis.layton@post.harvard.edu From larry.bugbee at boeing.com Sat Jul 26 16:38:33 2003 From: larry.bugbee at boeing.com (Bugbee, Larry) Date: Sat Jul 26 18:39:56 2003 Subject: [Pythonmac-SIG] logo Message-ID: <8CFC81BC2CC2A74F88BAB7180F00B779023B796E@xch-nw-29.nw.nos.boeing.com> My reason for hoping for a 'better' icon is simply because a number of folks don't like spiders or snakes or anything creepy or crawly. Python is a work of art. The Mac is a work of art. Put the two together and you have a dynamite combination. ...but for the icon. It does turn some folks off. The covers of books are not immune either. I've seen one person not buy Lutz's book after the comment "ugh. ...a snake." Not rational? Definitely, but it goes to first impressions. Yes, there is now some history with the snake. Yes, a lot of people are not bothered, and in fact, a number even seek out the dark and creepy stuff. ...but that is not what Python and the Mac are all about. It is supposed to be pleasant experience. OK, now that I have ranted... what should the icon be? I'll be honest, I don't know. I was hoping those of you that are more creative and have a feel for graphic arts would be able to suggest something. I don't want to be a bad guy, but I get the impression this should be fixed. Thanks for listening, Larry From skip at pobox.com Sat Jul 26 18:48:54 2003 From: skip at pobox.com (Skip Montanaro) Date: Sat Jul 26 18:49:00 2003 Subject: [Pythonmac-SIG] logo In-Reply-To: <8CFC81BC2CC2A74F88BAB7180F00B779023B796E@xch-nw-29.nw.nos.boeing.com> References: <8CFC81BC2CC2A74F88BAB7180F00B779023B796E@xch-nw-29.nw.nos.boeing.com> Message-ID: <16163.1366.44484.138393@montanaro.dyndns.org> Larry> Python is a work of art. The Mac is a work of art. Put the two Larry> together and you have a dynamite combination. ...but for the Larry> icon. It does turn some folks off. Alas, people who program Python on Macs are not necessarily graphically inclined. We're creative geeks, not artists in the traditional sense... I would think someone has an artistic spouse, SO, friend or office mate who might be inclined to contribute a small amount of artwork. Anyone? Skip From larry.bugbee at boeing.com Sat Jul 26 18:33:34 2003 From: larry.bugbee at boeing.com (Bugbee, Larry) Date: Sat Jul 26 20:33:57 2003 Subject: [Pythonmac-SIG] Re: Python 2.3 benchmark request Message-ID: <8CFC81BC2CC2A74F88BAB7180F00B779023B7972@xch-nw-29.nw.nos.boeing.com> 15" TiBook 867MHz, 10.2.6, Python 2.3c1 Framework compiled from source with gcc 3.1 -O3: 12866 pystones Python 2.2.3 Framework: 11030 pystones ...for about a 14% improvement. Sweet! From pijus at virketis.com Sat Jul 26 23:46:08 2003 From: pijus at virketis.com (Pijus Virketis) Date: Sat Jul 26 22:43:53 2003 Subject: [Pythonmac-SIG] PIL fails due to missing imaging.so Message-ID: <9EF5A684-BFF5-11D7-ACAD-000A9575F08A@virketis.com> Dear all, I have a stock installation of MacPython 2.2.2 on MacOSX 10.2.6. I am trying to use PIL to create a thumbnail: >>> import Image >>> im = Image.open("test.jpg") >>> im.size (300, 300) >>> im.thumbnail((200,200)) [...long error traceback cut...] ImportError: The _imaging C module is not installed I searched my hd, and did not find imaging.so anywhere. Do I have an incomplete PIL installation (needed to select some option during MacPython installation ..?), or is there something more sinister going on? Thank you! Pijus From wlmyers at mac.com Sat Jul 26 15:53:23 2003 From: wlmyers at mac.com (Willard Myers) Date: Sun Jul 27 06:12:36 2003 Subject: [Pythonmac-SIG] fpconst vs pickle Message-ID: <6EFB58DF-BF9A-11D7-8236-000A959CAD34@mac.com> I have the same Python 2.3c2+ installed on two different machines here, along with the very useful fpconst module (which is pure Python). On one machine, I can pickle/unpickle (with pickle or cPickle) the constants defined in fpconst; on the other I hit a ValueError on unpickle. I have different versions of Mac OS X on the two machines; can that really cause this behavior? If that were so, I'd expect the first case below to fail and the other to succeed :-< Details: === Works === [abenaki:~] wlmyers% python Python 2.3c2+ (#12, Jul 25 2003, 12:58:00) [GCC 3.1 20020420 (prerelease)] on darwin Type "help", "copyright", "credits" or "license" for more information. >>> import fpconst, pickle >>> infinity = pickle.dumps(fpconst.PosInf) >>> print infinity FInf . >>> pickle.loads(infinity) Inf >>> type(pickle.loads(infinity)) >>> import os >>> os.uname() ('Darwin', 'Abenaki.local.', '7.0.0b1', 'Darwin Kernel Version 7.0.0b1: Mon Jun 16 23:01:44 PDT 2003; root:xnu/xnu-452.1.obj~1/RELEASE_PPC ', 'Power Macintosh') === Doesn't work === [mawson:Programming/Python/fpconst-0.6.0] wlmyers% python Python 2.3c2+ (#12, Jul 25 2003, 12:58:00) [GCC 3.1 20020420 (prerelease)] on darwin Type "help", "copyright", "credits" or "license" for more information. >>> import fpconst, pickle >>> infinity = pickle.dumps(fpconst.PosInf) >>> print infinity FInf . >>> pickle.loads(infinity) Traceback (most recent call last): File "", line 1, in ? File "/Library/Frameworks/Python.framework/Versions/2.3/lib/python2.3/ pickle.py", line 1394, in loads return Unpickler(file).load() File "/Library/Frameworks/Python.framework/Versions/2.3/lib/python2.3/ pickle.py", line 872, in load dispatch[key](self) File "/Library/Frameworks/Python.framework/Versions/2.3/lib/python2.3/ pickle.py", line 968, in load_float self.append(float(self.readline()[:-1])) ValueError: invalid literal for float(): Inf >>> import os >>> os.uname() ('Darwin', 'Mawson.local.', '6.6', 'Darwin Kernel Version 6.6: Thu May 1 21:48:54 PDT 2003; root:xnu/xnu-344.34.obj~1/RELEASE_PPC ', 'Power Macintosh') >>> Bill From rafferty29 at mchsi.com Sun Jul 27 11:28:53 2003 From: rafferty29 at mchsi.com (Rob Bedford) Date: Sun Jul 27 11:29:31 2003 Subject: [Pythonmac-SIG] PIL fails due to missing imaging.so In-Reply-To: <9EF5A684-BFF5-11D7-ACAD-000A9575F08A@virketis.com> Message-ID: <07BDF404-C047-11D7-A1E4-00039374C97A@mchsi.com> I ran into this while porting a Windoz application we made to Mac OS X. I seem to recall you need to build pil AND imaging. I also looked at my site-packages and have imaging at the same level as pil with a Imaging.pth file. Hope this helps. Rob On Sunday, July 27, 2003, at 12:46 AM, Pijus Virketis wrote: > Dear all, > > I have a stock installation of MacPython 2.2.2 on MacOSX 10.2.6. I am > trying to use PIL to create a thumbnail: > > >>> import Image > >>> im = Image.open("test.jpg") > >>> im.size > (300, 300) > >>> im.thumbnail((200,200)) > [...long error traceback cut...] > ImportError: The _imaging C module is not installed > > I searched my hd, and did not find imaging.so anywhere. Do I have an > incomplete PIL installation (needed to select some option during > MacPython installation ..?), or is there something more sinister going > on? > > Thank you! > > Pijus > > _______________________________________________ > Pythonmac-SIG maillist - Pythonmac-SIG@python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pythonmac-sig > -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/enriched Size: 1098 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://mail.python.org/pipermail/pythonmac-sig/attachments/20030727/462044ec/attachment.bin From bob at redivi.com Sun Jul 27 14:18:56 2003 From: bob at redivi.com (Bob Ippolito) Date: Sun Jul 27 13:19:03 2003 Subject: [Pythonmac-SIG] fpconst vs pickle In-Reply-To: <6EFB58DF-BF9A-11D7-8236-000A959CAD34@mac.com> References: <6EFB58DF-BF9A-11D7-8236-000A959CAD34@mac.com> Message-ID: <6768562E-C056-11D7-8657-000393582924@redivi.com> This is a Darwin bug.. on Darwin 6.6 (10.2.6), you couldn't create floats from string values: [crack:~] bob% pythonw Python 2.3c2+ (#12, Jul 25 2003, 12:58:00) [GCC 3.1 20020420 (prerelease)] on darwin Type "help", "copyright", "credits" or "license" for more information. >>> float('Inf') Traceback (most recent call last): File "", line 1, in ? ValueError: invalid literal for float(): Inf >>> import os >>> os.uname() ('Darwin', 'crack.mob.lan', '6.6', 'Darwin Kernel Version 6.6: Thu May 1 21:48:54 PDT 2003; root:xnu/xnu-344.34.obj~1/RELEASE_PPC ', 'Power Macintosh') Darwin 7.0.0b1 (Panther DP) does not have this problem. [navi:~] bob% pythonw Python 2.3c2+ (#12, Jul 25 2003, 12:58:00) [GCC 3.1 20020420 (prerelease)] on darwin Type "help", "copyright", "credits" or "license" for more information. >>> float('Inf') Inf >>> import os >>> os.uname() ('Darwin', 'navi.eva.lan.', '7.0.0b1', 'Darwin Kernel Version 7.0.0b1: Mon Jun 16 23:01:44 PDT 2003; root:xnu/xnu-452.1.obj~1/RELEASE_PPC ', 'Power Macintosh') -bob On Saturday, July 26, 2003, at 2:53PM, Willard Myers wrote: > I have the same Python 2.3c2+ installed on two different machines > here, along with the very useful fpconst module (which is pure > Python). On one machine, I can pickle/unpickle (with pickle or > cPickle) the constants defined in fpconst; on the other I hit a > ValueError on unpickle. I have different versions of Mac OS X on the > two machines; can that really cause this behavior? If that were so, > I'd expect the first case below to fail and the other to succeed :-< > > Details: > > === Works === > [abenaki:~] wlmyers% python > Python 2.3c2+ (#12, Jul 25 2003, 12:58:00) > [GCC 3.1 20020420 (prerelease)] on darwin > Type "help", "copyright", "credits" or "license" for more information. > >>> import fpconst, pickle > >>> infinity = pickle.dumps(fpconst.PosInf) > >>> print infinity > FInf > . > >>> pickle.loads(infinity) > Inf > >>> type(pickle.loads(infinity)) > > >>> import os > >>> os.uname() > ('Darwin', 'Abenaki.local.', '7.0.0b1', 'Darwin Kernel Version > 7.0.0b1: Mon Jun 16 23:01:44 PDT 2003; > root:xnu/xnu-452.1.obj~1/RELEASE_PPC ', 'Power Macintosh') > > === Doesn't work === > [mawson:Programming/Python/fpconst-0.6.0] wlmyers% python > Python 2.3c2+ (#12, Jul 25 2003, 12:58:00) > [GCC 3.1 20020420 (prerelease)] on darwin > Type "help", "copyright", "credits" or "license" for more information. > >>> import fpconst, pickle > >>> infinity = pickle.dumps(fpconst.PosInf) > >>> print infinity > FInf > . > >>> pickle.loads(infinity) > Traceback (most recent call last): > File "", line 1, in ? > File > "/Library/Frameworks/Python.framework/Versions/2.3/lib/python2.3/ > pickle.py", line 1394, in loads > return Unpickler(file).load() > File > "/Library/Frameworks/Python.framework/Versions/2.3/lib/python2.3/ > pickle.py", line 872, in load > dispatch[key](self) > File > "/Library/Frameworks/Python.framework/Versions/2.3/lib/python2.3/ > pickle.py", line 968, in load_float > self.append(float(self.readline()[:-1])) > ValueError: invalid literal for float(): Inf > >>> import os > >>> os.uname() > ('Darwin', 'Mawson.local.', '6.6', 'Darwin Kernel Version 6.6: Thu May > 1 21:48:54 PDT 2003; root:xnu/xnu-344.34.obj~1/RELEASE_PPC ', 'Power > Macintosh') > >>> > > Bill > > > _______________________________________________ > Pythonmac-SIG maillist - Pythonmac-SIG@python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pythonmac-sig From eric.nieuwland at xs4all.nl Sun Jul 27 23:41:36 2003 From: eric.nieuwland at xs4all.nl (Eric Nieuwland) Date: Sun Jul 27 16:41:56 2003 Subject: [Pythonmac-SIG] Python site In-Reply-To: <20030726101339289391.GyazMail.chris@grabil.ca> Message-ID: Chris, On zaterdag, jul 26, 2003, at 16:13 Europe/Amsterdam, Chris wrote: > I think the snake thing is too intrenched. It has nothing > to do with the original Python which as you know refers to > Monty Python's Flying Circus. > > [...] > > So we have a scripting language called Python and we are > stuck with the snake. I kinda wish it had been called > "nudge, nudge, wink, wink" or SPAM,SPAM,SPAMMedy,SPAM or > the "Dead Parrot". This last suggestion has its own problems ;-) > Let me have a look at it. I have 30 years of graphics > experience and love to do AQUA in Photoshop! > > Still need your ideas though... Accepting that we're stuck with the reptile why not have a serpent encircle an apple thus forming the letter 'P'? Of course, the snake should stare at you as it tries to lure you into trying the apple... ______ / ___ \ | |*A*| | 00______| | <**>_______/ | | \ \ \| --eric -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/enriched Size: 1086 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://mail.python.org/pipermail/pythonmac-sig/attachments/20030727/212c09d3/attachment.bin From Jack.Jansen at cwi.nl Sun Jul 27 23:44:59 2003 From: Jack.Jansen at cwi.nl (Jack Jansen) Date: Sun Jul 27 16:45:05 2003 Subject: [Pythonmac-SIG] PIL fails due to missing imaging.so In-Reply-To: <9EF5A684-BFF5-11D7-ACAD-000A9575F08A@virketis.com> Message-ID: <3039F4E5-C073-11D7-BB16-000A27B19B96@cwi.nl> On zondag, jul 27, 2003, at 07:46 Europe/Amsterdam, Pijus Virketis wrote: > Dear all, > > I have a stock installation of MacPython 2.2.2 on MacOSX 10.2.6. I am > trying to use PIL to create a thumbnail: > > >>> import Image > >>> im = Image.open("test.jpg") > >>> im.size > (300, 300) > >>> im.thumbnail((200,200)) > [...long error traceback cut...] > ImportError: The _imaging C module is not installed The current stable version of MacPython-OS9 is 2.2.3. Could you please try it with that, and report a bug if things also don't work there? If "import Image" works, but the _imaging module isn't installed that's definitely a bug. At least: all this is assuming you got PIL by selecting it in the installer. If you tried to install PIL yourself then it's not my problem:-) And, if you have the time, could I ask you to also try this with MacPython-OS9 2.3b1? -- - Jack Jansen http://www.cwi.nl/~jack - - If I can't dance I don't want to be part of your revolution -- Emma Goldman - From Jack.Jansen at cwi.nl Mon Jul 28 01:23:31 2003 From: Jack.Jansen at cwi.nl (Jack Jansen) Date: Sun Jul 27 18:23:38 2003 Subject: [Pythonmac-SIG] Second stab at new MacPython website In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Folks, I think I've incorporated all of your comments, and added a couple more bits that were missing. Please check http://www.cwi.nl/~jack/newmacpython and let me know of anything you think needs fixing before the site goes live. (In other words: if you've reported something before but it isn't there now then it slipped my mind, please report again). -- - Jack Jansen http://www.cwi.nl/~jack - - If I can't dance I don't want to be part of your revolution -- Emma Goldman - From zen at shangri-la.dropbear.id.au Mon Jul 28 10:45:48 2003 From: zen at shangri-la.dropbear.id.au (Stuart Bishop) Date: Sun Jul 27 19:46:16 2003 Subject: [Pythonmac-SIG] Binary installer for MacPython-2.3rc2 available In-Reply-To: <5A2C76D6-BE93-11D7-91D9-0030655234CE@cwi.nl> Message-ID: <72CFE3A5-C08C-11D7-8CC1-000A95A06FC6@shangri-la.dropbear.id.au> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Friday, July 25, 2003, at 09:30 PM, Jack Jansen wrote: > A binary installer for MacPython-2.3rc2 for Mac OS X 10.2 is available > at > . > This will > hopefully go out as 2.3 final some time next week. > > Please report any problems, preferably to pythonmac-sig@python.org, or > otherwise > directly to me. A distutils script that uses the 'scripts' directive will install the scripts in /Library/Frameworks/Versions/2.3/bin This directory is not on the path, and no documentation explains how to *put* it on the path. The end result is that 3rd party python libraries that install command line utilities don't work out of the box. If we need to have scripts and stuff dual homed in /Library/Frameworks/Versions/2.3/bin and /usr/local/bin, distutils will need to be patched to maintain the symlinks (although I personally feel putting anything in /usr/local/bin is a bad idea...). This of course will not be possible for the 2.3.0 release. - -- Stuart Bishop http://shangri-la.dropbear.id.au/ -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.2 (Darwin) iD8DBQE/JGQ4h8iUz1x5geARAkL1AKCu9c8K6leY69LJ/IOQlD7z5wRaBQCgmbro ybqw8Xt0lqecUGIHKxAfyVk= =oDX3 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From list at mchsi.com Sun Jul 27 22:50:46 2003 From: list at mchsi.com (Andrew Hartung) Date: Sun Jul 27 22:51:20 2003 Subject: [Pythonmac-SIG] logo In-Reply-To: <8CFC81BC2CC2A74F88BAB7180F00B779023B796E@xch-nw-29.nw.nos.boeing.com> Message-ID: <49F1DD19-C0A6-11D7-A860-00306583718C@mchsi.com> On Saturday, July 26, 2003, at 05:38 PM, Bugbee, Larry wrote: > My reason for hoping for a 'better' icon is simply because a number of > folks don't like spiders or snakes or anything creepy or crawly. > Hey now, that's getting personal. I don't find any of my seven snakes 'creepy'. :) From list at mchsi.com Sun Jul 27 22:58:01 2003 From: list at mchsi.com (Andrew Hartung) Date: Sun Jul 27 22:58:34 2003 Subject: [Pythonmac-SIG] Python site In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <4D3BE212-C0A7-11D7-A860-00306583718C@mchsi.com> On Sunday, July 27, 2003, at 03:41 PM, Eric Nieuwland wrote: > > Accepting that we're stuck with the reptile why not have a serpent > encircle an apple thus forming the letter 'P'? I see snake and apple and I think Bible and Eve. From bob at redivi.com Mon Jul 28 01:50:44 2003 From: bob at redivi.com (Bob Ippolito) Date: Mon Jul 28 00:50:53 2003 Subject: [Pythonmac-SIG] python clone of "otool -Lv" Message-ID: <0C3FF2CE-C0B7-11D7-AB74-000393582924@redivi.com> I did a quick proof-of-concept utility that clones the functionality of otool -Lv today. It needs ctypes, because that's how I wrote the structure parsing stuff... not for any other good reason. The output of "python potool.py /some/executable_or_dylib" should be identical to the output of "otool -Lv /some/executable_or_dylib". The idea behind this is to write a version of install_name_tool in Python, so that we don't have to depend on the presence of developer tools for that kind of installation. It's pretty essential for bundlebuilder kinda stuff if you want to embed frameworks, or installing frameworks to semi-arbitrary locations on a user's computer (i.e. admin, network or user). It doesn't do this yet, but all the parsing/generating code for this kind of modification is there. There's an ld flag that you should to use to pad these headers (-headerpad_max_install_names) if you're going to have any luck making paths longer. By default, they end up with just enough zero padding cstring termination and 32bit alignment. It's available at: http://undefined.org/python/potool-0.0.tgz Anyone, please feel free to take this and write the install_name_tool code ;) All the information I needed to write this part of the functionality was in /usr/include/mach-o/loader.h. I took a look at the install_name_tool source code and man page. The best it does is modify these dylib structures in-place. It's not capable of expanding them to accommodate paths beyond the padding size of the mach-o file. Emulating this tool should be rather easy. -bob From bob at redivi.com Mon Jul 28 05:22:00 2003 From: bob at redivi.com (Bob Ippolito) Date: Mon Jul 28 04:22:07 2003 Subject: [Pythonmac-SIG] python clone of "otool -Lv" In-Reply-To: <0C3FF2CE-C0B7-11D7-AB74-000393582924@redivi.com> References: <0C3FF2CE-C0B7-11D7-AB74-000393582924@redivi.com> Message-ID: <8FC70183-C0D4-11D7-826D-000393582924@redivi.com> On Monday, July 28, 2003, at 12:50AM, Bob Ippolito wrote: > I did a quick proof-of-concept utility that clones the functionality > of otool -Lv today. It needs ctypes, because that's how I wrote the > structure parsing stuff... not for any other good reason. The output > of "python potool.py /some/executable_or_dylib" should be identical to > the output of "otool -Lv /some/executable_or_dylib". > > The idea behind this is to write a version of install_name_tool in > Python, so that we don't have to depend on the presence of developer > tools for that kind of installation. It's pretty essential for > bundlebuilder kinda stuff if you want to embed frameworks, or > installing frameworks to semi-arbitrary locations on a user's computer > (i.e. admin, network or user). It doesn't do this yet, but all the > parsing/generating code for this kind of modification is there. > > There's an ld flag that you should to use to pad these headers > (-headerpad_max_install_names) if you're going to have any luck making > paths longer. By default, they end up with just enough zero padding > cstring termination and 32bit alignment. > > It's available at: http://undefined.org/python/potool-0.0.tgz > > Anyone, please feel free to take this and write the install_name_tool > code ;) All the information I needed to write this part of the > functionality was in /usr/include/mach-o/loader.h. I took a look at > the install_name_tool source code and man page. The best it does is > modify these dylib structures in-place. It's not capable of expanding > them to accommodate paths beyond the padding size of the mach-o file. > Emulating this tool should be rather easy. I went ahead and wrote the install_name_tool clone (pinstall_name_tool.py), and uploaded a new archive. I haven't tested it extensively, but for the few things I've tried it produced the same exact output as install_name_tool did. It's available at: http://undefined.org/python/potool-0.1.tgz If anyone wants to backport this to the struct module or something, I wouldn't mind :) -bob From eric.nieuwland at xs4all.nl Mon Jul 28 13:58:39 2003 From: eric.nieuwland at xs4all.nl (Eric Nieuwland) Date: Mon Jul 28 06:58:46 2003 Subject: [Pythonmac-SIG] Second stab at new MacPython website In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <71FD3DDE-C0EA-11D7-AA47-000393894CEA@xs4all.nl> Jack, It looks much better! One additional request: could you add some sort of division between the top row and the content below it? This will make it much clearer that the left-hand bar is part of the content and thus changes when you select another main topic. On maandag, jul 28, 2003, at 00:23 Europe/Amsterdam, Jack Jansen wrote: > Folks, > I think I've incorporated all of your comments, and added a couple > more bits that were missing. Please check > http://www.cwi.nl/~jack/newmacpython and let me know of anything you > think needs fixing before the site goes live. (In other words: if > you've reported something > before but it isn't there now then it slipped my mind, please report > again). From kantel at mpiwg-berlin.mpg.de Mon Jul 28 14:06:19 2003 From: kantel at mpiwg-berlin.mpg.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?J=F6rg_Kantel?=) Date: Mon Jul 28 07:08:42 2003 Subject: [Pythonmac-SIG] Second stab at new MacPython website Message-ID: > On maandag, jul 28, 2003, at 00:23 Europe/Amsterdam, Jack Jansen wrote: > >> Folks, >> I think I've incorporated all of your comments, and added a couple >> more bits that were missing. Please check >> http://www.cwi.nl/~jack/newmacpython and let me know of anything you >> think needs fixing before the site goes live. (In other words: if >> you've reported something >> before but it isn't there now then it slipped my mind, please report >> again). My website has moved. It's no longer , it's now and it's still growing (slow but it's growing...;o) It would be nice, if you could fix that here: Many thanks J"org -- J"org Kantel Max Planck Institute for the History of Science - Comp. Dept. Wilhelmstr. 44, D-10177 Berlin fon: +4930-22667-220 | fax: +4930-22667-299 kantel@mpiwg-berlin.mpg.de -- J"org Kantel Max Planck Institute for the History of Science - Comp. Dept. Wilhelmstr. 44, D-10177 Berlin fon: +4930-22667-220 | fax: +4930-22667-299 kantel@mpiwg-berlin.mpg.de -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/enriched Size: 1280 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://mail.python.org/pipermail/pythonmac-sig/attachments/20030728/d075859a/attachment.bin From chris at grabil.ca Mon Jul 28 09:37:51 2003 From: chris at grabil.ca (Chris) Date: Mon Jul 28 08:38:49 2003 Subject: [Pythonmac-SIG] Icon Message-ID: <20030728083751703257.GyazMail.chris@grabil.ca> Hi All May I suggest that you have a contest for an icon and see what you get. There are lots of Photoshop sites, that you could post to to spread the word. My most enduring memory of MPFC was the guy with the head that hinged open and stuff came out, or went in. And this is really what Python is. A better way of doing things. A head opening experience. Chris From admin at proboscis.org.uk Mon Jul 28 12:52:03 2003 From: admin at proboscis.org.uk (Proboscis Admin) Date: Mon Jul 28 09:51:21 2003 Subject: [Pythonmac-SIG] Help! Message-ID: <860CE093-C0E9-11D7-B18D-0030654ABF76@proboscis.org.uk> > Dear All, > > does any1 know if PIL comes with python 2.2.3 or do I have to download > it sepreatly? I've downloaded MacPython223full as im working on an > iMac. please help asap. > > thanks Proboscis From Jack.Jansen at cwi.nl Mon Jul 28 16:55:34 2003 From: Jack.Jansen at cwi.nl (Jack Jansen) Date: Mon Jul 28 09:52:45 2003 Subject: [Pythonmac-SIG] Second stab at new MacPython website In-Reply-To: <71FD3DDE-C0EA-11D7-AA47-000393894CEA@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <28BE15A0-C103-11D7-ACF9-0030655234CE@cwi.nl> On Monday, Jul 28, 2003, at 12:58 Europe/Amsterdam, Eric Nieuwland wrote: > Jack, > > It looks much better! One additional request: could you add some sort > of division between the top row and the content below it? This will > make it much clearer that the left-hand bar is part of the content and > thus changes when you select another main topic. Could you come up with some CSS magic to do this? Anyone else? I don't want to muck with the generator scripts too much, because of the eventual re-intergation with www.python.org... -- Jack Jansen, , http://www.cwi.nl/~jack If I can't dance I don't want to be part of your revolution -- Emma Goldman From Jack.Jansen at cwi.nl Mon Jul 28 17:11:16 2003 From: Jack.Jansen at cwi.nl (Jack Jansen) Date: Mon Jul 28 10:08:26 2003 Subject: [Pythonmac-SIG] Help! In-Reply-To: <860CE093-C0E9-11D7-B18D-0030654ABF76@proboscis.org.uk> Message-ID: <5A0B1BE0-C105-11D7-ACF9-0030655234CE@cwi.nl> On Monday, Jul 28, 2003, at 12:52 Europe/Amsterdam, Proboscis Admin wrote: >> Dear All, >> >> does any1 know if PIL comes with python 2.2.3 or do I have to download >> it sepreatly? I've downloaded MacPython223full as im working on an >> iMac. please help asap. It comes with PIL included. -- Jack Jansen, , http://www.cwi.nl/~jack If I can't dance I don't want to be part of your revolution -- Emma Goldman From gandreas at delver.com Mon Jul 28 12:23:53 2003 From: gandreas at delver.com (Glenn Andreas) Date: Mon Jul 28 12:24:02 2003 Subject: [Pythonmac-SIG] Icon In-Reply-To: <20030728083751703257.GyazMail.chris@grabil.ca> References: <20030728083751703257.GyazMail.chris@grabil.ca> Message-ID: At 8:37 AM -0400 7/28/03, Chris wrote: >Hi All > >May I suggest that you have a contest for an icon and see >what you get. This sounds like a good idea - obviously coming up with a good icon is tough, especially one that follows the whole Aqua theme. My photo-based icon obviously needs some work to get to that level (since the "illustration" style is amost, but not quite, photo realistic, most noticably, the lighting is _much_ more diffused, the image is simplified if possible, and the number of distinct colors is reduced (with tint and other variations of those colors being used instead)). However, I definitely do not think it should include an apple logo, or specific apple equipment, etc... since that will make the thing seem cheezy and amateur (quick - look at your OS X Applications folder - how many have an apple logo in them? Pretty much none). After all, we already know that the thing is to be used on a mac (since that is where you'll find it). Using it on the website is different, since that would be viewed from multiple platforms (so having some image that can be used as "identity brand" that can be incorporated with other elements is proably a useful goal). At 9:50 PM -0500 7/27/03, Andrew Hartung wrote: > >On Saturday, July 26, 2003, at 05:38 PM, Bugbee, Larry wrote: > >>My reason for hoping for a 'better' icon is simply because a number >>of folks don't like spiders or snakes or anything creepy or crawly. >> > > >Hey now, that's getting personal. I don't find any of my seven >snakes 'creepy'. :) I'm actually quite surprised at the amount of negative reaction to the whole "realistic snake" concept. It's just a little 1 1/2" square image - it's not like it is a giant background picture close up or anything. After all, I find swans to be creepy, but I wouldn't be upset with a swan image the size of an icon - but hey, that's just me. Glenn Andreas gandreas@delver.com Author of Macintosh games: Theldrow 2.3, Blobbo 1.0.2, Cythera 1.0.2 Be good, and you will be lonesome From oussoren at cistron.nl Mon Jul 28 20:12:27 2003 From: oussoren at cistron.nl (Ronald Oussoren) Date: Mon Jul 28 13:12:31 2003 Subject: [Pythonmac-SIG] Binary installer for MacPython-2.3rc2 available In-Reply-To: <72CFE3A5-C08C-11D7-8CC1-000A95A06FC6@shangri-la.dropbear.id.au> References: <72CFE3A5-C08C-11D7-8CC1-000A95A06FC6@shangri-la.dropbear.id.au> Message-ID: On Monday, 28 July, 2003, at 01:45, Stuart Bishop wrote: > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 > > > On Friday, July 25, 2003, at 09:30 PM, Jack Jansen wrote: > >> A binary installer for MacPython-2.3rc2 for Mac OS X 10.2 is >> available at >> . >> This will >> hopefully go out as 2.3 final some time next week. >> >> Please report any problems, preferably to pythonmac-sig@python.org, >> or otherwise >> directly to me. > > A distutils script that uses the 'scripts' directive will install > the scripts in /Library/Frameworks/Versions/2.3/bin > > This directory is not on the path, and no documentation explains how to > *put* it on the path. The end result is that 3rd party python libraries > that install command line utilities don't work out of the box. > > If we need to have scripts and stuff dual homed in > /Library/Frameworks/Versions/2.3/bin and /usr/local/bin, distutils > will need to be patched to maintain the symlinks (although I personally > feel putting anything in /usr/local/bin is a bad idea...). This of > course will not be possible for the 2.3.0 release. This is IMHO not a Mac-specific problem, especially if you look at it in a slightly more generic way. Now that system integrators ship Python as part of the OS (e.g. on MacOS X and Linux), there are actually 3 levels at which packages can be installed: 1. As part of the Python core 2. As part of the OS vendor packages 3. As part of the local site packages The last two are currently thrown together into $PREFIX/lib/python$VER/site-packages. This means that locally installed packages will be installed into "vendor-space" when using a vendor provided python. As an example, packages that install scripts will install these into /usr/bin on MacOS X 10.2. That's not an appropriate location. Ronald > > - -- Stuart Bishop > http://shangri-la.dropbear.id.au/ > > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- > Version: GnuPG v1.2.2 (Darwin) > > iD8DBQE/JGQ4h8iUz1x5geARAkL1AKCu9c8K6leY69LJ/IOQlD7z5wRaBQCgmbro > ybqw8Xt0lqecUGIHKxAfyVk= > =oDX3 > -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- > > > _______________________________________________ > Pythonmac-SIG maillist - Pythonmac-SIG@python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pythonmac-sig > From Jack.Jansen at cwi.nl Mon Jul 28 22:38:46 2003 From: Jack.Jansen at cwi.nl (Jack Jansen) Date: Mon Jul 28 15:38:53 2003 Subject: [Pythonmac-SIG] Binary installer for MacPython-2.3rc2 available In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1AC9A494-C133-11D7-BD53-000A27B19B96@cwi.nl> On maandag, jul 28, 2003, at 19:12 Europe/Amsterdam, Ronald Oussoren wrote: > 1. As part of the Python core > 2. As part of the OS vendor packages > 3. As part of the local site packages And, actually, the latter can be split again as 3a) As part of the local intranet infrastructure 3b) As part of the local machine infrastructure 3c) By the end-user Current Apple policy seems to be that 1=/System, 2+3b=/Library, 3a should be /Network but isn't used for Python and 3c=$HOME/Library. I think it would be a good thing if distutils learnt about this division, and my feeling says that teaching distutils is good enough: the various other places that currently know about specific filesystem locations (such as the main Makefile) could use a distutils-implemented policy when there is one. Actually (thinking out loud here), it's really a question of responsibility. The machine is on the users' desk, but many people could be responsible for bits and pieces on it: aside from the parties mentioned above there could be a turnkey solutions provider, maybe multiple levels of network administrators, etc. What distutils would need is something like an open-ended configuration where destinations could be added. And when destination are added these also need to be picked up by sys.path, but also (for include files) by subsequent distutils calls for installs at a higher level ("higher" with the definition of end-user topmost), etc. Should we take this to the distutils SIG? Should we write a PEP? -- - Jack Jansen http://www.cwi.nl/~jack - - If I can't dance I don't want to be part of your revolution -- Emma Goldman - From oussoren at cistron.nl Mon Jul 28 22:49:50 2003 From: oussoren at cistron.nl (Ronald Oussoren) Date: Mon Jul 28 15:50:01 2003 Subject: [Pythonmac-SIG] Binary installer for MacPython-2.3rc2 available In-Reply-To: <1AC9A494-C133-11D7-BD53-000A27B19B96@cwi.nl> References: <1AC9A494-C133-11D7-BD53-000A27B19B96@cwi.nl> Message-ID: On Monday, 28 July, 2003, at 21:38, Jack Jansen wrote: > > On maandag, jul 28, 2003, at 19:12 Europe/Amsterdam, Ronald Oussoren > wrote: >> 1. As part of the Python core >> 2. As part of the OS vendor packages >> 3. As part of the local site packages > > And, actually, the latter can be split again as > 3a) As part of the local intranet infrastructure > 3b) As part of the local machine infrastructure > 3c) By the end-user > > Current Apple policy seems to be that 1=/System, 2+3b=/Library, 3a > should be /Network > but isn't used for Python and 3c=$HOME/Library. > > I think it would be a good thing if distutils learnt about this > division, and my feeling says that teaching distutils is good enough: > the various other places that currently know about specific filesystem > locations (such as the main Makefile) could use a > distutils-implemented policy when there is one. > > Actually (thinking out loud here), it's really a question of > responsibility. The machine is on the users' desk, but many people > could be responsible for bits and pieces on it: aside from the parties > mentioned above there could be a turnkey solutions provider, maybe > multiple levels of network administrators, etc. What distutils would > need is something like an open-ended configuration where destinations > could be added. And when destination are added these also need to be > picked up by sys.path, but also (for include files) by subsequent > distutils calls for installs at a higher level ("higher" with the > definition of end-user topmost), etc. > > Should we take this to the distutils SIG? Should we write a PEP? It's even more complex than I though :-) This should be discussed in a larger group, I was thinking of asking on python-dev about this issue (but after the 2.3 release). The distutils SIG may be a more appropriate group. Ronald > -- > - Jack Jansen > http://www.cwi.nl/~jack - > - If I can't dance I don't want to be part of your revolution -- Emma > Goldman - > > From Jack.Jansen at cwi.nl Mon Jul 28 23:57:04 2003 From: Jack.Jansen at cwi.nl (Jack Jansen) Date: Mon Jul 28 16:57:10 2003 Subject: [Pythonmac-SIG] Where should the FAQ go? Message-ID: <0AE6818D-C13E-11D7-BD53-000A27B19B96@cwi.nl> Folks, I see two options for a MacPython FAQ: 1. Simply plug into the existing general Python FAQ, start a decent Macintosh section and fix the existing Mac questions 2. Start anew with something more mac-centered. (1) has the advantage of being the least work. But it has a serious drawback: the current FAQ as it exists is still very much geared towards the unix-crowd: lots of questions on building Python and such. A Mac-specific FAQ could solve that, but would not only be more work for the maintainer(s) but also for the end user (because s/he may have to look in two places for answers). Opinions? -- - Jack Jansen http://www.cwi.nl/~jack - - If I can't dance I don't want to be part of your revolution -- Emma Goldman - From bob at redivi.com Mon Jul 28 18:04:15 2003 From: bob at redivi.com (Bob Ippolito) Date: Mon Jul 28 17:04:24 2003 Subject: [Pythonmac-SIG] Where should the FAQ go? In-Reply-To: <0AE6818D-C13E-11D7-BD53-000A27B19B96@cwi.nl> Message-ID: <0BF3C716-C13F-11D7-A8DE-000A95686CD8@redivi.com> On Monday, Jul 28, 2003, at 16:57 America/New_York, Jack Jansen wrote: > Folks, > I see two options for a MacPython FAQ: > 1. Simply plug into the existing general Python FAQ, start a decent > Macintosh section and fix the existing Mac questions > 2. Start anew with something more mac-centered. > > (1) has the advantage of being the least work. But it has a serious > drawback: the current FAQ as it exists is still very much geared > towards the unix-crowd: lots of questions on building Python and such. > A Mac-specific FAQ could solve that, but would not only be more work > for the maintainer(s) but also for the end user (because s/he may have > to look in two places for answers). 3. Wiki? MacPython stuff seems to move rather quickly because of all the new developments wrt catching up to Apple with OS X. -bob From Jack.Jansen at cwi.nl Tue Jul 29 00:26:28 2003 From: Jack.Jansen at cwi.nl (Jack Jansen) Date: Mon Jul 28 17:26:36 2003 Subject: [Pythonmac-SIG] Additional binary packages for Python2.3rc1 on 10.2.6 In-Reply-To: <78AC6A9A-BD7C-11D7-9428-000A95686CD8@redivi.com> Message-ID: <26745DB4-C142-11D7-BD53-000A27B19B96@cwi.nl> Bob, do you feel like becoming co-scapegoat, so the two of us together become responsible for the contents of the standard PackMan database? I have a couple of reasons for asking this. The least important one is that anything that gets work out of my hands into someone else's is welcome. The more important one (really!) is that the "supplier side" of PackMan needs work, as you are already experiencing, and I could use help with the design. The plan is that I'll do a PEP on PackMan after 2.3 is out, and initially I thought I could punt on the supplier side of things, but I've already noticed that even for a one-man scapegoat it would be good to have some organisation of things so you don't spend hours frantically searching the net when a new version of Python (or one of the packages used) comes out. Interested? Oh, and I'll go through some of your message now anyway: On donderdag, jul 24, 2003, at 04:13 Europe/Amsterdam, Bob Ippolito wrote: > I've setup a repository for several packages that I use that aren't in > jack's list yet, or weren't compiled correctly for the non-fink user. > > The Package Manager URL is: > http://undefined.org/python/pimp/darwin-6.6-Power_Macintosh.plist > > I couldn't find what jack has been using to build binary packages, so > I wrote one that makes it easy. It's at: > http://undefined.org/python/makepimp.py > > Usage of makepimp is: > makepimp.py modulename versionnumber > > It spits out a plist template of what you'd paste into the package > manager file. > > If you use it, you'll want to change HTTPBASE and UPLOADCMD up at the > top. > > modulename must already be installed in your site-packages, I have not > tested userdir installation, but it works for me. I like makepimp a lot (especially the generation of the xml code!) but there are two issues with it: 1. It creates a binary installer from an installed package. What I do, and what I think I prefer, is running "python setup.py bdist_dumb" in the build directory. 2. It has no way to customize the fields in the XML, which means you have to edit them by hand, which means the version (X+1) of the package means to have to start from scratch again. > The packages I have up so far are: > readline 2.3c1 > PIL 1.1.4 (with static libjpeg support, no tkinter support) > egenix-mx-base 2.0.4 > ctypes 0.6.2 > > I'll be adding more sometime (primarily: bsddb3, pyPgSQL, pygame, > twisted), Of these I definitely want readline before 2.3 is announced. Could you give me a recipy for building it? That is, assuming you've built it with a static libreadline, which is what I need. PIL also needs to be built with a static libjpeg, indeed, but also with Tkinter. Did you modify the existing PM recipe for building PIL from source, or did you start form scratch? If the former, what did you have to do? > I don't like the current "you have to go fetch this dependency" way of > doing things, so I'll probably end up writing some python-based > installers for libraries like SDL, Tcl/Tk, BerkeleyDB, PostgreSQL, > etc. that will download the binary from somewhere and install, or at > least open up the .pkg for you. I definitely want this too, at least for some packages (Tcl/Tk, wxPython). For others (Developer Tools) I think it may be overkill. And maybe we should stop at opening the .pkg, or even at opening the .dmg. -- - Jack Jansen http://www.cwi.nl/~jack - - If I can't dance I don't want to be part of your revolution -- Emma Goldman - From skip at pobox.com Mon Jul 28 17:47:59 2003 From: skip at pobox.com (Skip Montanaro) Date: Mon Jul 28 17:48:24 2003 Subject: [Pythonmac-SIG] Where should the FAQ go? In-Reply-To: <0AE6818D-C13E-11D7-BD53-000A27B19B96@cwi.nl> References: <0AE6818D-C13E-11D7-BD53-000A27B19B96@cwi.nl> Message-ID: <16165.39439.122879.591799@montanaro.dyndns.org> Jack> 1. Simply plug into the existing general Python FAQ, start a Jack> decent Macintosh section and fix the existing Mac questions ... Jack> (1) has the advantage of being the least work. But it has a Jack> serious drawback: the current FAQ as it exists is still very Jack> much geared towards the unix-crowd: lots of questions on Jack> building Python and such. A Mac-specific FAQ could solve Jack> that, but would not only be more work for the maintainer(s) Jack> but also for the end user (because s/he may have to look in Jack> two places for answers). Option 1 also has the advantage that it becomes a one-stop shop for Python questions. People won't have to realize there's a Mac-specific FAQ and find it. Andrew Kuchling (cc'd on this message) is in the midst of converting the existing Python FAQ from faqwiz to docutils so it will also be easier to update. There's a version in the pydotorg CVS as doc/FAQ.txt, but it isn't yet available from the website. Skip From skip at pobox.com Mon Jul 28 17:51:15 2003 From: skip at pobox.com (Skip Montanaro) Date: Mon Jul 28 17:51:28 2003 Subject: [Pythonmac-SIG] Where should the FAQ go? In-Reply-To: <16165.39439.122879.591799@montanaro.dyndns.org> References: <0AE6818D-C13E-11D7-BD53-000A27B19B96@cwi.nl> <16165.39439.122879.591799@montanaro.dyndns.org> Message-ID: <16165.39635.335574.120685@montanaro.dyndns.org> Skip> .... Andrew Kuchling (cc'd on this message) is in the midst of Skip> converting the existing Python FAQ from faqwiz to docutils so it Skip> will also be easier to update.... I forgot to mention it will also be easier to make the FAQ available in formats besides HTML. Skip From Jack.Jansen at cwi.nl Tue Jul 29 00:57:25 2003 From: Jack.Jansen at cwi.nl (Jack Jansen) Date: Mon Jul 28 17:57:31 2003 Subject: [Pythonmac-SIG] ANN: aeve 0.0.1 - Pythonic Apple Event support In-Reply-To: <3CAFAF3B-BE5D-11D7-9A5C-000A95686CD8@redivi.com> Message-ID: <78DE4A0F-C146-11D7-BD53-000A27B19B96@cwi.nl> Bob, I had a fairly quick look at your stuff, and I'm flabbergasted! I'm typing this with gaffer-tape around my head to stop it from exploding!! I haven't installed anything yet (I don't want to fiddle with my machine just before 2.3:-) but I can see lots of potential already. How about us two (and maybe any other interested parties, but I can't think of anyone except maybe Donovan) forming a task force, cleaning this stuff up (there's still quite a bit of horrible gensuitemodule in there, it seems:-), coming up with nifty additions (AppleScript->Python conversion, at least of simple statements, should be doable! Hyperlinked documentation based on your html-generation!) and getting that into 2.4? Or actually, there's no reason we couldn't release it earlier, as it doesn't have to break the old stuff (which would then get a depracation warning in 2.4). On vrijdag, jul 25, 2003, at 07:02 Europe/Amsterdam, Bob Ippolito wrote: > For those of you that like yourselves too much to attempt > gensuitemodule, I've been working on a replacement that's a few orders > of magnitude easier to use. Basically, this lets Python do most > things you could do from Script Editor in a very dynamic way. > > You can fetch it at: > http://undefined.org/python/aeve-0.0.1.tgz > > aeve does not require you to spit out a bunch of py files before > talking to an app, it's as easy as this: > > import aeve > iTunes = aeve.talkto('/Applications/iTunes.app') > print iTunes.current_track.name > > Of course, for those great applications that have broken aevt > dictionaries, you can use the compiler to generate .py files, like > this: > cd aeve/scripts > ./compiler.py -o . /Applications/iTunes.app > > Which will spit out a python package called iTunes, with all of the > relevant .py files. It's not quite pretty printed, but it's good > enough to fix things (for example, adding the undocumented artwork > element to the track class). > > The latest feature, which I just finished a few minutes ago, is html > documentation. Here's an example: > http://undefined.org/python/aeve/iTunes_doc/ > As you can tell, I was pretty uninspired and copied the look and feel > of Script Editor's dictionary. This documentation was spit out with > the following: > cd aeve/scripts > ./aevedoc.py /Applications/iTunes.app > > There are currently two example scripts included: > missingTrackFinder.py - seeks out and destroys file tracks in your > playlist whose file is missing (there are plenty of status and > question dialogs, so it's pretty safe) > spamStatusMessage.py - a little script I've been using to set my > iChat status message to the number of spams I've filtered _that day_. > Most people probably don't have the same Mail.app structure as I do, > but it's rather easy to change around if you want to play. > > If you get a chance to play with aeve, I'm looking for feedback/bug > reports - especially from those of you that have used or are using > gensuitemodule, or have never used Apple Events. > > -bob > > > _______________________________________________ > Pythonmac-SIG maillist - Pythonmac-SIG@python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pythonmac-sig > -- - Jack Jansen http://www.cwi.nl/~jack - - If I can't dance I don't want to be part of your revolution -- Emma Goldman - From bob at redivi.com Mon Jul 28 19:01:27 2003 From: bob at redivi.com (Bob Ippolito) Date: Mon Jul 28 18:01:35 2003 Subject: [Pythonmac-SIG] Additional binary packages for Python2.3rc1 on 10.2.6 In-Reply-To: <26745DB4-C142-11D7-BD53-000A27B19B96@cwi.nl> Message-ID: <0939663D-C147-11D7-A8DE-000A95686CD8@redivi.com> On Monday, Jul 28, 2003, at 17:26 America/New_York, Jack Jansen wrote: > Bob, > do you feel like becoming co-scapegoat, so the two of us together > become responsible for the contents of the standard PackMan database? > > I have a couple of reasons for asking this. The least important one is > that anything that gets work out of my hands into someone else's is > welcome. The more important one (really!) is that the "supplier side" > of PackMan needs work, as you are already experiencing, and I could > use help with the design. The plan is that I'll do a PEP on PackMan > after 2.3 is out, and initially I thought I could punt on the supplier > side of things, but I've already noticed that even for a one-man > scapegoat it would be good to have some organisation of things so you > don't spend hours frantically searching the net when a new version of > Python (or one of the packages used) comes out. > > Interested? Sure, I'll help out.. I have to compile/acquire these packages for myself anyways, I may as well spend the extra time to help the rest of MacPython out :) I have some ideas for the direction I think PackageManager should go, especially wrt security/authority.. but I have to think about those a lot more before I can write them down. For example, the version of Python these things are for should be encoded in the URL, and as we've all noticed distutils.util.get_platform() may not necessarily the way the packages should be broken up.. especially with regard to pure python libraries that are only dependent on the capabilities of Python (i.e. 2.2+, 2.3+, etc). I imagine on other platforms, distutils.util.getplatform() isn't even that useful. As an example, Linux is pretty much always going to spit out linux-i686 regardless of what version of glibc or whatever it was built with. I also don't recall seeing any categorization metadata in the plist? > > Oh, and I'll go through some of your message now anyway: > > > On donderdag, jul 24, 2003, at 04:13 Europe/Amsterdam, Bob Ippolito > wrote: > >> I've setup a repository for several packages that I use that aren't >> in jack's list yet, or weren't compiled correctly for the non-fink >> user. >> >> The Package Manager URL is: >> http://undefined.org/python/pimp/darwin-6.6-Power_Macintosh.plist >> >> I couldn't find what jack has been using to build binary packages, so >> I wrote one that makes it easy. It's at: >> http://undefined.org/python/makepimp.py >> >> Usage of makepimp is: >> makepimp.py modulename versionnumber >> >> It spits out a plist template of what you'd paste into the package >> manager file. >> >> If you use it, you'll want to change HTTPBASE and UPLOADCMD up at the >> top. >> >> modulename must already be installed in your site-packages, I have >> not tested userdir installation, but it works for me. > > I like makepimp a lot (especially the generation of the xml code!) but > there are two issues with it: > 1. It creates a binary installer from an installed package. What I do, > and what I think I prefer, is running "python setup.py bdist_dumb" in > the build directory. The reasons I did it from installed packages are: (a) I had no idea how you were doing it, so I guessed (b) I'm not familiar with all the features of distutils, since I'm currently not a release guy for any real project (c) I saw ./Library/Frameworks/...../site-packages/ in your tarballs and I was like "ooh, that's easy". I still haven't read the source for PackageManager to see if it even works for ~/Library/Python installations. > 2. It has no way to customize the fields in the XML, which means you > have to edit them by hand, which means the version (X+1) of the > package means to have to start from scratch again. We all have mice, right? ;) Reading in an existing template dict would be nice, and trivial to do. makepimp was a quick hack, it wasn't a tool I was planning to use forever :) I'll roll these two features into makepimp when I find the time. >> The packages I have up so far are: >> readline 2.3c1 >> PIL 1.1.4 (with static libjpeg support, no tkinter support) >> egenix-mx-base 2.0.4 >> ctypes 0.6.2 >> >> I'll be adding more sometime (primarily: bsddb3, pyPgSQL, pygame, >> twisted), > > Of these I definitely want readline before 2.3 is announced. Could you > give me a recipy for building it? That is, assuming you've built it > with a static libreadline, which is what I need. PIL also needs to be > built with a static libjpeg, indeed, but also with Tkinter. Did you > modify the existing PM recipe for building PIL from source, or did you > start form scratch? > If the former, what did you have to do? readline: http://undefined.org/python/readline-0.0.1.tgz (this has been around for a few weeks, I posted it to the list.. it actually "urllib"'s the tarball from gnu.org and compiles it with the right options to make it static) PIL: I'm pretty sure I did this by hand.. it does what you want it to do if you *only* have libjpeg.a on your library path, which is what I arranged for it. If you download the SDL_image source from http://www.libsdl.org/projects/SDL_image/ and extract PBProjects.tar.gz(?) you can rake out their statically compiled libjpeg (I think I compiled my own, but I compiled SDL_image for Panther yesterday and I noticed that all the SDL source packages come with a PBProjects.tar.gz file that comes with precompiled static versions of all their OS X deps, which was a nice surprise). I can make a recipe that builds with tkinter. > >> I don't like the current "you have to go fetch this dependency" way >> of doing things, so I'll probably end up writing some python-based >> installers for libraries like SDL, Tcl/Tk, BerkeleyDB, PostgreSQL, >> etc. that will download the binary from somewhere and install, or at >> least open up the .pkg for you. > > I definitely want this too, at least for some packages (Tcl/Tk, > wxPython). For others (Developer Tools) I think it may be overkill. > And maybe we should stop at opening the .pkg, or even at opening the > .dmg. I agree with Developer Tools being overkill. I'd also particularly like the SDL frameworks (pygame dependencies) to fit into this scheme. -bob From bob at redivi.com Mon Jul 28 19:19:21 2003 From: bob at redivi.com (Bob Ippolito) Date: Mon Jul 28 18:19:33 2003 Subject: [Pythonmac-SIG] ANN: aeve 0.0.1 - Pythonic Apple Event support In-Reply-To: <78DE4A0F-C146-11D7-BD53-000A27B19B96@cwi.nl> Message-ID: <89796033-C149-11D7-A8DE-000A95686CD8@redivi.com> On Monday, Jul 28, 2003, at 17:57 America/New_York, Jack Jansen wrote: > Bob, > I had a fairly quick look at your stuff, and I'm flabbergasted! I'm > typing this with gaffer-tape around my head to stop it from > exploding!! I haven't installed anything yet (I don't want to fiddle > with my machine just before 2.3:-) but I can see lots of potential > already. Good to see that someone noticed, I was wondering when I'd get some feedback.. I spent over a week on this stuff. It started off as "hey, why don't I use gensuitemodule to manage my iTunes library" and then it turned out into "hey, I never want to use gensuitemodule again, I'm going to have to replace it". > > How about us two (and maybe any other interested parties, but I can't > think of anyone except maybe Donovan) forming a task force, cleaning > this stuff up (there's still quite a bit of horrible gensuitemodule in > there, it seems:-), coming up with nifty additions > (AppleScript->Python conversion, at least of simple statements, should > be doable! Hyperlinked documentation based on your html-generation!) > and getting that into 2.4? Or actually, there's no reason we couldn't > release it earlier, as it doesn't have to break the old stuff (which > would then get a depracation warning in 2.4). Donovan is definitely interested, but he's been too busy (moving, etc.) to do much with it. He has helped me understand what I'm doing though. When he finds a window of time, I'm sure he'll be on board. There's a lot less horrible gensuitemodule in there than you think. Some of the file names are the same, but their code has been changed to protect the innocent. AppleScript->Python conversion is definitely possible, there isn't a whole lot of AppleScript you can't parse just by knowing the aetes for AppleScript, StandardAdditions, etc. In fact, without a huge amount of effort, the code could probably take a compiled applescript and make quite a lot of sense out of it. That's a good idea, actually, to have AppleScript just compile it for you, and dissect what it ended up making. There's only two things I want to do immediately to aeve's codebase: (1) optimize the AERegistry to do two level namespace lookup instead of three (currently global -> app -> suite, I think could be global -> app). I'm not having performance issues though. (2) add support for logic / test / whose stuff. I just need to find some time to stare at some more AEDescs and find the right approach (for example, it might be possible to do some really scary but fun "currying" of operators). (3) add an async mode. I deemed this too hard to do at the moment, but it's very desirable for me to say, integrate the CFRunloop as a Twisted reactor and have Apple Events just work with twisted Deferreds and stuff. The attached python code is some *extremely* frightening python code that I had written for fun once that would potentially allow something like whose to be almost as easy as AppleScript. -bob -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: cake.py Type: application/octet-stream Size: 7604 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://mail.python.org/pipermail/pythonmac-sig/attachments/20030728/ca09ad4d/cake.obj -------------- next part -------------- From arthur at iaaa.nl Tue Jul 29 15:14:19 2003 From: arthur at iaaa.nl (Arthur Elsenaar) Date: Tue Jul 29 08:17:59 2003 Subject: [Pythonmac-SIG] FAQ item Message-ID: <2E01694E-C1BE-11D7-9C00-000393825740@iaaa.nl> Hi, new to MacPython and have an obvious item for the new FAQ. Q: Why doesn't the PythonIDE have syntax coloring? Do you plan to add it in a future release? A: Thanks, Arthur From telliott at hsc.wvu.edu Tue Jul 29 12:12:12 2003 From: telliott at hsc.wvu.edu (Tom Elliott) Date: Tue Jul 29 11:12:18 2003 Subject: [Pythonmac-SIG] (no subject) Message-ID: <07DD58C2-C1D7-11D7-A9B4-003065B2687E@hsc.wvu.edu> Running MacPython-2.3 installed from the binary installer MacPython-OSX-2.3rc2-3.dmg, under OS X 10.2.6. Used PackMan to install everything available including PIL-1.1.4-binary If this script is run with the third line uncommented: import Image im = Image.open("/Users/telliott/Desktop/x.jpg") im.show() print "got here" I get the classic "IOError: decoder jpeg not available", which I've seen discussed at length here and elsewhere. But I thought that since Jack "built the PIL distribution on a system where libjpeg was available" this shouldn't happen. Did I just screw up or what? Tom -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/enriched Size: 655 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://mail.python.org/pipermail/pythonmac-sig/attachments/20030729/1d51ee7f/attachment-0001.bin From lsloan-000002 at umich.edu Tue Jul 29 12:30:34 2003 From: lsloan-000002 at umich.edu (Lance E Sloan) Date: Tue Jul 29 11:30:46 2003 Subject: [Pythonmac-SIG] Icon Message-ID: <441788.1059478234@141-213-238-90.umnet.umich.edu> --On Monday, July 28, 2003 11:23 -0500 Glenn Andreas wrote: > My photo-based icon obviously needs some work to get to that level (since > the "illustration" style is amost, but not quite, photo realistic, most > noticably, the lighting is _much_ more diffused, the image is simplified > if possible, and the number of distinct colors is reduced (with tint and > other variations of those colors being used instead)). I like the idea of using a photorealistic python for the icon, too. The only problem I had with Glenn's example, , is that on my PowerBook it looks like a blob, depending on what angle I view it from. If a photorealistic python icon had the snake in an extended position rather than coiled up, I would like it a lot more. Of course, I guess maybe coiled is a more natural position for a python rather than standing like a cobra. If I were artistic, I would try to contribute an icon to this discussion. I will just have to settle for looking at others' contributions. (Will we get to vote on them?) I did a Google search for "python" then clicked on the "Images" tab and found lots of images, maybe some of which could be used to make a good icon. I'm partial to the bright green variety. -- Lance E Sloan U-M WATS: Web Applications, Technologies, and Solutions Full-service web and database design, development, and hosting. http://www.itcs.umich.edu/wats/ - "Putting U on the Web" From cedric at cedricrossi.com Tue Jul 29 18:44:33 2003 From: cedric at cedricrossi.com (Cedric Rossi) Date: Tue Jul 29 11:44:47 2003 Subject: [Pythonmac-SIG] Icon In-Reply-To: <441788.1059478234@141-213-238-90.umnet.umich.edu> Message-ID: On 29/07/2003 at 11:30 -0400, Lance E Sloan wrote: In my opinion, something like the pyOpenGL one (http://pyopengl.sourceforge.net/), but with the snake around an apple instead of a cone would be great... Cedric From altis at semi-retired.com Tue Jul 29 09:54:51 2003 From: altis at semi-retired.com (Kevin Altis) Date: Tue Jul 29 11:48:10 2003 Subject: [Pythonmac-SIG] Icon In-Reply-To: <441788.1059478234@141-213-238-90.umnet.umich.edu> Message-ID: I vote against a photo-realistic icon. OTOH, a Google search can turn up some good images as mentioned below. Q: Does Britney Spears like Python? A: Why yes she does! ;-) ka p.s. top posting is sometimes okay ;-) > -----Original Message----- > From: Lance E Sloan > Sent: Tuesday, July 29, 2003 8:31 AM > To: pythonmac-sig@python.org > Subject: Re: [Pythonmac-SIG] Icon > > > --On Monday, July 28, 2003 11:23 -0500 Glenn Andreas > > wrote: > > My photo-based icon obviously needs some work to get to that > level (since > > the "illustration" style is amost, but not quite, photo realistic, most > > noticably, the lighting is _much_ more diffused, the image is simplified > > if possible, and the number of distinct colors is reduced (with tint and > > other variations of those colors being used instead)). > > I like the idea of using a photorealistic python for the icon, too. The > only problem I had with Glenn's example, > , is that on my > PowerBook it looks like a blob, depending on what angle I view it > from. If > a photorealistic python icon had the snake in an extended position rather > than coiled up, I would like it a lot more. Of course, I guess maybe > coiled is a more natural position for a python rather than > standing like a > cobra. > > If I were artistic, I would try to contribute an icon to this > discussion. I > will just have to settle for looking at others' contributions. (Will we > get to vote on them?) > > I did a Google search for "python" then clicked on the "Images" tab and > found lots of images, maybe some of which could be used to make a good > icon. I'm partial to the bright green variety. > > -- > Lance E Sloan > U-M WATS: Web Applications, Technologies, and Solutions > Full-service web and database design, development, and hosting. > http://www.itcs.umich.edu/wats/ - "Putting U on the Web" From cedric at cedricrossi.com Tue Jul 29 18:52:23 2003 From: cedric at cedricrossi.com (Cedric Rossi) Date: Tue Jul 29 11:52:48 2003 Subject: [Pythonmac-SIG] Icon In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Sorry about the wrong attribution to Lance E Sloan. On 29/07/2003 at 17:44 +0200, Cedric Rossi wrote: >On 29/07/2003 at 11:30 -0400, Lance E Sloan wrote: >In my opinion, something like the pyOpenGL one >(http://pyopengl.sourceforge.net/), but with the snake around an apple >instead of a cone would be great... > > Cedric > >_______________________________________________ >Pythonmac-SIG maillist - Pythonmac-SIG@python.org >http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pythonmac-sig > From bob at redivi.com Tue Jul 29 12:53:57 2003 From: bob at redivi.com (Bob Ippolito) Date: Tue Jul 29 11:57:12 2003 Subject: [Pythonmac-SIG] Icon In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tuesday, Jul 29, 2003, at 11:44 America/New_York, Cedric Rossi wrote: > On 29/07/2003 at 11:30 -0400, Lance E Sloan wrote: > In my opinion, something like the pyOpenGL one > (http://pyopengl.sourceforge.net/), but with the snake around an apple > instead of a cone would be great... IMHO the snake+apple (the fruit or pc) idea is probably too cheesy, though I still think it's important that a green snake, or a green snake-like texture play a part. I'd like the MacPython icon suite to be professionally designed, as compliant as possible to Apple's Human Interface Guidelines, and on-par with applications like OmniGraffle. That said, I know quite a few designers and I'm trying to get (at least) one to dig into the project -- but I can't guarantee mockups by tomorrow, it's going to take some time. -bob From israel at sandlotgames.com Tue Jul 29 11:00:27 2003 From: israel at sandlotgames.com (Israel C. Evans) Date: Tue Jul 29 13:00:51 2003 Subject: [Pythonmac-SIG] FAQ item In-Reply-To: <2E01694E-C1BE-11D7-9C00-000393825740@iaaa.nl> Message-ID: <272A3DEC-C1E6-11D7-A5F6-000393A47FF2@sandlotgames.com> I would love for the PythonIDE to have Syntax coloring.. The lack of it was the only reason I started down the long path towards becoming familiar with emacs. The IDE didn't have syntax coloring, Pythoncard's editor while wonderful was also quite unstable on my machine for some reason, so I eventually found my way to Jedit which is also amazing, but with large files became extremely slow. Since I could never get my head around the mode switching of Vi and Vim, I set down to learn emacs. Now I'm quite comfortable with it, but I've had to give up the wonderful popups that appear when I'm typing a class or a function that is part of python or has been created in the file as Code Editor or Idle does. And I don't get the nice integration of the python documentation and such, but at least it works and gives my code pretty colors. It's amazing to me that with all the wonderful benefits that the PythonIDE offers, I'm uncomfortable using it just because my code doesn't come in full color. I think I must be terribly spoiled. ~Israel~ On Tuesday, July 29, 2003, at 05:14 AM, Arthur Elsenaar wrote: > Hi, > > new to MacPython and have an obvious item for the new FAQ. > > Q: Why doesn't the PythonIDE have syntax coloring? Do you plan to add > it in a future release? > A: > > Thanks, > > Arthur > > > _______________________________________________ > Pythonmac-SIG maillist - Pythonmac-SIG@python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pythonmac-sig > > ~Israel~ From skip at pobox.com Tue Jul 29 13:06:28 2003 From: skip at pobox.com (Skip Montanaro) Date: Tue Jul 29 13:06:56 2003 Subject: [Pythonmac-SIG] FAQ item In-Reply-To: <272A3DEC-C1E6-11D7-A5F6-000393A47FF2@sandlotgames.com> References: <2E01694E-C1BE-11D7-9C00-000393825740@iaaa.nl> <272A3DEC-C1E6-11D7-A5F6-000393A47FF2@sandlotgames.com> Message-ID: <16166.43412.127205.85303@montanaro.dyndns.org> Israel> I would love for the PythonIDE to have Syntax coloring.. So submit a patch. ;-) Skip From israel at sandlotgames.com Tue Jul 29 11:12:47 2003 From: israel at sandlotgames.com (Israel C. Evans) Date: Tue Jul 29 13:13:11 2003 Subject: [Pythonmac-SIG] FAQ item In-Reply-To: <16166.43412.127205.85303@montanaro.dyndns.org> Message-ID: Is that doable? oooh... Where to start? Is the source included with the basic MacPython for OsX distribution? That does sound like a learning opportunity. Anyone with any ideas on how this should be done? On Tuesday, July 29, 2003, at 10:06 AM, Skip Montanaro wrote: > > Israel> I would love for the PythonIDE to have Syntax coloring.. > > So submit a patch. ;-) > > Skip > > _______________________________________________ > Pythonmac-SIG maillist - Pythonmac-SIG@python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pythonmac-sig > > ~Israel~ From gandreas at delver.com Tue Jul 29 13:18:16 2003 From: gandreas at delver.com (Glenn Andreas) Date: Tue Jul 29 13:18:25 2003 Subject: [Pythonmac-SIG] FAQ item In-Reply-To: <272A3DEC-C1E6-11D7-A5F6-000393A47FF2@sandlotgames.com> References: <272A3DEC-C1E6-11D7-A5F6-000393A47FF2@sandlotgames.com> Message-ID: At 10:00 AM -0700 7/29/03, Israel C. Evans wrote: >I would love for the PythonIDE to have Syntax coloring.. >The lack of it was the only reason I started down the long path >towards becoming familiar with emacs. > >The IDE didn't have syntax coloring, Pythoncard's editor while >wonderful was also quite unstable on my machine for some reason, so >I eventually found my way to Jedit which is also amazing, but with >large files became extremely slow. Since I could never get my head >around the mode switching of Vi and Vim, I set down to learn emacs. >Now I'm quite comfortable with it, but I've had to give up the >wonderful popups that appear when I'm typing a class or a function >that is part of python or has been created in the file as Code >Editor or Idle does. And I don't get the nice integration of the >python documentation and such, but at least it works and gives my >code pretty colors. > >It's amazing to me that with all the wonderful benefits that the >PythonIDE offers, I'm uncomfortable using it just because my code >doesn't come in full color. I think I must be terribly spoiled. > > >~Israel~ > PyOXIDE does syntax coloring (and the next version should work correcty with 2.3), but it doesn't have the debugger that PythonIDE does (yet - it will soon though). It is, however, making extremely good progress (last night I added a simple module help/documentation window that uses pydoc) - it is really amazing how powerful Python + PyObjC + Cocoa really is. Glenn Andreas gandreas@delver.com Author of Macintosh games: Theldrow 2.3, Blobbo 1.0.2, Cythera 1.0.2 Be good, and you will be lonesome From bob at redivi.com Tue Jul 29 14:33:49 2003 From: bob at redivi.com (Bob Ippolito) Date: Tue Jul 29 13:33:58 2003 Subject: [Pythonmac-SIG] FAQ item In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tuesday, Jul 29, 2003, at 13:18 America/New_York, Glenn Andreas wrote: > At 10:00 AM -0700 7/29/03, Israel C. Evans wrote: >> I would love for the PythonIDE to have Syntax coloring.. >> The lack of it was the only reason I started down the long path >> towards becoming familiar with emacs. >> >> The IDE didn't have syntax coloring, Pythoncard's editor while >> wonderful was also quite unstable on my machine for some reason, so I >> eventually found my way to Jedit which is also amazing, but with >> large files became extremely slow. Since I could never get my head >> around the mode switching of Vi and Vim, I set down to learn emacs. >> Now I'm quite comfortable with it, but I've had to give up the >> wonderful popups that appear when I'm typing a class or a function >> that is part of python or has been created in the file as Code Editor >> or Idle does. And I don't get the nice integration of the python >> documentation and such, but at least it works and gives my code >> pretty colors. >> >> It's amazing to me that with all the wonderful benefits that the >> PythonIDE offers, I'm uncomfortable using it just because my code >> doesn't come in full color. I think I must be terribly spoiled. > > PyOXIDE does syntax coloring (and the next version should work > correcty with 2.3), but it doesn't have the debugger that PythonIDE > does (yet - it will soon though). It is, however, making extremely > good progress (last night I added a simple module help/documentation > window that uses pydoc) - it is really amazing how powerful Python + > PyObjC + Cocoa really is. No kidding, you'd have to offer me some serious cookies to do any real GUI development in Carbon, win32api, etc. after getting used to Cocoa. It would be even nicer if Apple would expose more of Project Builder to the rest of us (i.e. let us make our own SCM plugins, debugger wrappers, etc), then we wouldn't need to have four or five python IDEs on the mac when most of us use Vim or Emacs anyway ;) -bob From israel at sandlotgames.com Tue Jul 29 11:43:32 2003 From: israel at sandlotgames.com (Israel C. Evans) Date: Tue Jul 29 13:43:54 2003 Subject: [Pythonmac-SIG] FAQ item In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <2BD1CFED-C1EC-11D7-A5F6-000393A47FF2@sandlotgames.com> That would be nice.. I would like to use project builder if it were more friendly with python and web dev stuff as well as more customizable. I've been trying to get PyOXIDE to run, but it seems to fail with 2.3. Glenn has mentioned, that the new version of PyOXIDE should work correctly with 2.3, but it seems that I have other problems with pyObjC... I've been going through the test files in the pyobjc site-package and nearly all of them seem to run ok, only a few are failing on me. btw.. Is there an easy way to run all the tests automatically? doing them by hand on the command line is getting to be a pain. I can't wait for the day that software is fully and easily customizable.. Everything is a module you drop in for added functionality with completely tweakable UI that works on all imaginable platforms such as my desktop, my pda, my cereal bowl and 3rd nipple. Well, maybe not the cereal bowl, that's just silly. > PyOXIDE does syntax coloring (and the next version should work > correcty with 2.3), but it doesn't have the debugger that PythonIDE > does (yet - it will soon though). It is, however, making extremely > good progress (last night I added a simple module help/documentation > window that uses pydoc) - it is really amazing how powerful Python + > PyObjC + Cocoa really is. No kidding, you'd have to offer me some serious cookies to do any real GUI development in Carbon, win32api, etc. after getting used to Cocoa. It would be even nicer if Apple would expose more of Project Builder to the rest of us (i.e. let us make our own SCM plugins, debugger wrappers, etc), then we wouldn't need to have four or five python IDEs on the mac when most of us use Vim or Emacs anyway ;) -bob ~Israel~ From israel at sandlotgames.com Tue Jul 29 11:51:27 2003 From: israel at sandlotgames.com (Israel C. Evans) Date: Tue Jul 29 13:51:51 2003 Subject: [Pythonmac-SIG] Packmanager (appleDevTools) Message-ID: <46F4C89D-C1ED-11D7-A5F6-000393A47FF2@sandlotgames.com> I've been trying to install PyObjC through the package manager and at the end I'm told that the AppleDevTools need to be installed manually. Does this refer to the Apple Developer tools from the extra developer tools cd that came with macOSX 10.2 or to something else? I have installed the the developer tools, but am I missing something here? ~Israel~ From mwh at python.net Tue Jul 29 20:09:19 2003 From: mwh at python.net (Michael Hudson) Date: Tue Jul 29 14:09:21 2003 Subject: [Pythonmac-SIG] Binary installer for MacPython-2.3rc2 available In-Reply-To: <5A2C76D6-BE93-11D7-91D9-0030655234CE@cwi.nl> (Jack Jansen's message of "Fri, 25 Jul 2003 13:30:11 +0200") References: <5A2C76D6-BE93-11D7-91D9-0030655234CE@cwi.nl> Message-ID: <2mwue1b3xs.fsf@starship.python.net> Jack Jansen writes: > Please report any problems, preferably to pythonmac-sig@python.org, > or otherwise directly to me. A problem I *didn't* have was the scrolling README thing. Did you find the problem or am I just lucky? Cheers, mwh -- C is not clean -- the language has _many_ gotchas and traps, and although its semantics are _simple_ in some sense, it is not any cleaner than the assembly-language design it is based on. -- Erik Naggum, comp.lang.lisp From managan at llnl.gov Tue Jul 29 12:19:37 2003 From: managan at llnl.gov (Rob Managan) Date: Tue Jul 29 14:20:14 2003 Subject: [Pythonmac-SIG] Re: syntax coloring In-Reply-To: References: <272A3DEC-C1E6-11D7-A5F6-000393A47FF2@sandlotgames.com> Message-ID: I looked through the archives and found this. In summary there is a simple edit to turn on syntax coloring. It is not robust so it is not the default. I included a few references to other enhancements that may not work any longer either. >Date: Thu, 30 Sep 1999 13:49:32 -0700 >From: "Joseph J. Strout" > >OK, here's a patch (at http://www.strout.net/python/mac/) which >extends the IDE's editor in a couple of ways: > > >Syntax Coloring: > >This feature highlights keywords, strings, comments, etc. in various >colors and styles. A new menu command in the pop-up menu above the >vertical scrollbar lets you turn this on and off. This feature is >still a work in progress; and has several limitations: > >- It can get confused when multi-line strings are involved. If that >happens, just turn coloring off and back on; that should fix it. (In >the future we may have a command key to do this more quickly.) > >- It assumes you have Profont installed, and want to use it. I can't >imagine why you wouldn't, but if it's a problem let me know and we'll >talk. > And the patches seem to have broken >Wed Apr 25 15:18:33 2001 >I had applied the printing and AdvancedEditor patches to the IDE in >Python 2.0 and that worked fine, but I can't seem to get syntax >coloring to work after applying them to the IDE in 2.1. I've >reapplied/rebuilt several times and Syntax Coloring is checked when I >open a script in the IDE, but nothing is colorized. Any thoughts? > >Richard Gordon But there is a note on how to fix them >From: Donovan Preston >Finally, about the advanced editor patch, it's simply a matter of changing >all of the toolbox module imports from "import Blah" to "from Carbon import >Blah"... Otherwise, I didn't have to change a thing to get the advanced >editor to work. I will try to apply it to my fresh copy of the IDE I >installed yesterday and post another step-by-step for people interested in >having this functionality. > And >From: Dan Grassi >But there is another issue, AdvancedEditorPatch.py does not work but it >is a simple fix. The first insert: > >PyEdit.InsertAfter(" self.run_as_main = 0", >""" if self.settings.has_key("syntax_coloring"): > self.syntax_coloring = self.settings["syntax_coloring"] > else: > self.syntax_coloring = 1 >""") > >does not work because of changes in PyEdit.py in the 2.3 cvs tree. >Instead it needs to be: > >PyEdit.InsertAfter(r""" self.run_as_main = >self.settings.get("run_as_main", 0)""", >r""" self.syntax_coloring = self.settings.get("syntax_coloring", 0) >""") > >Without this self.syntax_coloring is not created and the pop-up menu >crashes the IDE when it is referenced. > > >For completeness the changes in PyAdvancedEditor.py are: > >old: >import Qd >import Fm >import Evt >import Events >change to: >#from Carbon import Qd >from Carbon import Fm >from Carbon import Evt >from Carbon import Events > And >From: Just van Rossum >A bad implementation of syntax coloring has been hiding in the IDE >for a while: >edit line 679 to read > > self.do_fontify = 1 > >(Re)start the IDE and you're laughing. > >It's bad in the sense that: > > 1) It doesn't do the right thing when editing triple quoted strings > (That's why there is a secret shortcut which recolors the entire > document:cmd-shift-d.) > 2) It _sometimes_ traces back in PyFontify in some of the complex regexen > (this is probably due to sre, but I never bothered to research the > problem) > 3) It is slow becuase it does it's work as idle callbacks, which are > scheduled fairly low-frequently by the event loop. > 4) Neither fonts nor colors are settable with a GUI. > >I now think that the whole PyFontify approach is flawed, and that it's not >really suitable for live coloring. Either we need to copy what IDLE is doing, >or, and THAT would be a MAJORLY exciting enhancement of the IDE, is >to switch to >Scintilla as the text component instead of waste. Then we get >_folding_ for free >as well! I usually don't like to shout in emails, but THIS WOULD BE EXTREMELY >COOL ;-) Scintilla is what PythonWin uses. > >Problem is: it needs to be ported to Carbon. Problem #2 for _me_ is: it's in >C++, which I can't write. Anyone, please check out >http://www.scintilla.org/ if >you're interested in a project. This is now in line 681 of Wtext.py which is found at /Library/Frameworks/Python.framework/Versions/2.3/mac/Tools/IDE/Wtext.py -- *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-**-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*- Rob Managan email managan at llnl.gov LLNL phone: 925-423-0903 P.O. Box 808, L-095 FAX: 925-422-3389 Livermore, CA 94551-0808 From israel at sandlotgames.com Tue Jul 29 12:20:06 2003 From: israel at sandlotgames.com (Israel C. Evans) Date: Tue Jul 29 14:20:30 2003 Subject: [Pythonmac-SIG] Binary installer for MacPython-2.3rc2 available In-Reply-To: <2mwue1b3xs.fsf@starship.python.net> Message-ID: <4769A7E7-C1F1-11D7-A5F6-000393A47FF2@sandlotgames.com> I didn't see this either in the latest build. On Tuesday, July 29, 2003, at 11:09 AM, Michael Hudson wrote: > Jack Jansen writes: > >> Please report any problems, preferably to pythonmac-sig@python.org, >> or otherwise directly to me. > > A problem I *didn't* have was the scrolling README thing. Did you > find the problem or am I just lucky? > > Cheers, > mwh > > -- > C is not clean -- the language has _many_ gotchas and traps, and > although its semantics are _simple_ in some sense, it is not any > cleaner than the assembly-language design it is based on. > -- Erik Naggum, comp.lang.lisp > > _______________________________________________ > Pythonmac-SIG maillist - Pythonmac-SIG@python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pythonmac-sig > > ~Israel~ From bob at redivi.com Tue Jul 29 15:32:15 2003 From: bob at redivi.com (Bob Ippolito) Date: Tue Jul 29 14:32:27 2003 Subject: [Pythonmac-SIG] Packmanager (appleDevTools) In-Reply-To: <46F4C89D-C1ED-11D7-A5F6-000393A47FF2@sandlotgames.com> Message-ID: On Tuesday, Jul 29, 2003, at 13:51 America/New_York, Israel C. Evans wrote: > I've been trying to install PyObjC through the package manager and at > the end I'm told that the AppleDevTools need to be installed manually. > Does this refer to the Apple Developer tools from the extra developer > tools cd that came with macOSX 10.2 or to something else? > > I have installed the the developer tools, but am I missing something > here? The test for Developer Tools is: if not os.access("/Developer/Tools", 0): raise NotInstalled Have you renamed or deleted something? Are you using a non-english version of OS X that happens to call /Developer something else? Did you screw with the permissions? Did you somehow install it to somewhere other than the boot volume? -bob From billb at mousa.demon.co.uk Tue Jul 29 20:59:17 2003 From: billb at mousa.demon.co.uk (Bill Bedford) Date: Tue Jul 29 14:59:58 2003 Subject: [Pythonmac-SIG] FAQ item In-Reply-To: <2BD1CFED-C1EC-11D7-A5F6-000393A47FF2@sandlotgames.com> References: <2BD1CFED-C1EC-11D7-A5F6-000393A47FF2@sandlotgames.com> Message-ID: <20030729195917979986.GyazMail.billb@mousa.demon.co.uk> On Tue, 29 Jul 2003 10:43:32 -0700, Israel C. Evans wrote: > That would be nice.. I would like to use project builder if it were > more friendly with python and web dev stuff as well as more > customizable. > > I've been trying to get PyOXIDE to run, but it seems to fail with > 2.3. Glenn has mentioned, that the new version of PyOXIDE should > work correctly with 2.3, I have it running. There is a hard code reference to 2.2 in its code. dyld: /Applications/PyOXIDE.app/Contents/MacOS/PyOXIDE can't open library: Python.framework/Versions/2.2/Python (No such file or directory, errno = 2) Bill Bedford "Nothing is as important as model railways and even that isn't very important" -some wiseguy somewhere From bob at redivi.com Tue Jul 29 16:06:15 2003 From: bob at redivi.com (Bob Ippolito) Date: Tue Jul 29 15:06:26 2003 Subject: [Pythonmac-SIG] FAQ item In-Reply-To: <20030729195917979986.GyazMail.billb@mousa.demon.co.uk> Message-ID: On Tuesday, Jul 29, 2003, at 14:59 America/New_York, Bill Bedford wrote: > On Tue, 29 Jul 2003 10:43:32 -0700, Israel C. Evans wrote: >> That would be nice.. I would like to use project builder if it were >> more friendly with python and web dev stuff as well as more >> customizable. >> >> I've been trying to get PyOXIDE to run, but it seems to fail with >> 2.3. Glenn has mentioned, that the new version of PyOXIDE should >> work correctly with 2.3, > > I have it running. There is a hard code reference to 2.2 in its code. > > dyld: /Applications/PyOXIDE.app/Contents/MacOS/PyOXIDE can't open > library: Python.framework/Versions/2.2/Python (No such file or > directory, errno = 2) that's what install_name_tool is for :) Although if it's linked and compiled with 2.2, it may very well not work with 2.3. From Jack.Jansen at cwi.nl Tue Jul 29 22:16:47 2003 From: Jack.Jansen at cwi.nl (Jack Jansen) Date: Tue Jul 29 15:16:58 2003 Subject: [Pythonmac-SIG] Icon In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <32C5D54B-C1F9-11D7-BE4F-000A27B19B96@cwi.nl> On dinsdag, jul 29, 2003, at 17:54 Europe/Amsterdam, Kevin Altis wrote: > I vote against a photo-realistic icon. OTOH, a Google search can turn > up > some good images as mentioned below. > > Q: Does Britney Spears like Python? > A: Why yes she does! ;-) > > Would people oppose to an icon like that one, but with *me* in it? In stead of the snake? :-) -- - Jack Jansen http://www.cwi.nl/~jack - - If I can't dance I don't want to be part of your revolution -- Emma Goldman - From israel at sandlotgames.com Tue Jul 29 13:23:18 2003 From: israel at sandlotgames.com (Israel C. Evans) Date: Tue Jul 29 15:23:40 2003 Subject: [Pythonmac-SIG] Icon In-Reply-To: <32C5D54B-C1F9-11D7-BE4F-000A27B19B96@cwi.nl> Message-ID: <1BA2BBE0-C1FA-11D7-A5F6-000393A47FF2@sandlotgames.com> As long as you've got that outfit on! On Tuesday, July 29, 2003, at 12:16 PM, Jack Jansen wrote: > e that one, but with *m ~Israel~ From Jack.Jansen at cwi.nl Tue Jul 29 22:23:42 2003 From: Jack.Jansen at cwi.nl (Jack Jansen) Date: Tue Jul 29 15:23:49 2003 Subject: [Pythonmac-SIG] FAQ item In-Reply-To: <16166.43412.127205.85303@montanaro.dyndns.org> Message-ID: <2A23E8DB-C1FA-11D7-BE4F-000A27B19B96@cwi.nl> On dinsdag, jul 29, 2003, at 19:06 Europe/Amsterdam, Skip Montanaro wrote: > > Israel> I would love for the PythonIDE to have Syntax coloring.. > > So submit a patch. ;-) Just a warning that people probably shouldn't spend too much time on the current IDE: we should consider it at the end of its useful life. The W toolkit on which it is built predates even Appearance Manager, and it's design has resisted any attempt to make it appearance-mgr compatible. Moreover, nowadays we have Cocoa, which would do a lot of things automatically, and there are lots of all-singing-all-dancing edit widgets and other things available that we could put to good use. Some time next week I'd like to start a discussion on what people would like to see for the future, and what they're willing to help with. Cocoa-ification of IDE and Package Manager is going to be topmost on my list, that much I know:-) -- - Jack Jansen http://www.cwi.nl/~jack - - If I can't dance I don't want to be part of your revolution -- Emma Goldman - From larry.bugbee at boeing.com Tue Jul 29 13:22:44 2003 From: larry.bugbee at boeing.com (Bugbee, Larry) Date: Tue Jul 29 15:24:16 2003 Subject: [Pythonmac-SIG] Icon Message-ID: <8CFC81BC2CC2A74F88BAB7180F00B779023B797C@xch-nw-29.nw.nos.boeing.com> perhaps you meant to say "... *and* me in it"? ;-) -----Original Message----- From: Jack Jansen [mailto:Jack.Jansen@cwi.nl] Sent: Tuesday, July 29, 2003 12:17 PM To: Kevin Altis Cc: pythonmac-sig@python.org Subject: Re: [Pythonmac-SIG] Icon On dinsdag, jul 29, 2003, at 17:54 Europe/Amsterdam, Kevin Altis wrote: > I vote against a photo-realistic icon. OTOH, a Google search can turn > up > some good images as mentioned below. > > Q: Does Britney Spears like Python? > A: Why yes she does! ;-) > > Would people oppose to an icon like that one, but with *me* in it? In stead of the snake? :-) -- - Jack Jansen http://www.cwi.nl/~jack - - If I can't dance I don't want to be part of your revolution -- Emma Goldman - _______________________________________________ Pythonmac-SIG maillist - Pythonmac-SIG@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pythonmac-sig From bob at redivi.com Tue Jul 29 16:29:35 2003 From: bob at redivi.com (Bob Ippolito) Date: Tue Jul 29 15:29:42 2003 Subject: [Pythonmac-SIG] FAQ item In-Reply-To: <2A23E8DB-C1FA-11D7-BE4F-000A27B19B96@cwi.nl> Message-ID: On Tuesday, Jul 29, 2003, at 15:23 America/New_York, Jack Jansen wrote: > > On dinsdag, jul 29, 2003, at 19:06 Europe/Amsterdam, Skip Montanaro > wrote: > >> >> Israel> I would love for the PythonIDE to have Syntax coloring.. >> >> So submit a patch. ;-) > > Just a warning that people probably shouldn't spend too much time on > the current IDE: > we should consider it at the end of its useful life. The W toolkit on > which it > is built predates even Appearance Manager, and it's design has > resisted any > attempt to make it appearance-mgr compatible. Moreover, nowadays we > have Cocoa, > which would do a lot of things automatically, and there are lots > of all-singing-all-dancing edit widgets and other things available > that we could > put to good use. > > Some time next week I'd like to start a discussion on what people > would like > to see for the future, and what they're willing to help with. > Cocoa-ification > of IDE and Package Manager is going to be topmost on my list, that > much I know:-) What about the bootstrap problem (Package Manager vs. PyObjC)? You planning to make PyObjC one of MacPython 2.4's "batteries" ? I'd also like to mention that there are some pretty *serious security flaws* with the current way Package Manager works that should be higher priority than making it pretty. We need to start a new thread discussing this.. is this the proper SIG for it? -bob From Jack.Jansen at cwi.nl Tue Jul 29 22:41:02 2003 From: Jack.Jansen at cwi.nl (Jack Jansen) Date: Tue Jul 29 15:41:12 2003 Subject: [Pythonmac-SIG] FAQ item In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <95FE0F8C-C1FC-11D7-BE4F-000A27B19B96@cwi.nl> On dinsdag, jul 29, 2003, at 19:18 Europe/Amsterdam, Glenn Andreas wrote: > PyOXIDE does syntax coloring (and the next version should work > correcty with 2.3), but it doesn't have the debugger that PythonIDE > does (yet - it will soon though). It is, however, making extremely > good progress (last night I added a simple module help/documentation > window that uses pydoc) - it is really amazing how powerful Python + > PyObjC + Cocoa really is. Glenn, there were some questions here about your binary-only release of PyOXIDE, and I don't recall seeing an answer from you yet on the subject of PyOXIDE licensing. About the debugger: this is a part that is probably pulled over from the existing IDE relatively easy. There's also bits and pieces of a class/object browser already that we could use. And in general: I would really like the IDE to be structured as a set of widgets (text I/O widget, editor widget, object browser widget, etc) that would then be used in an extensible set of windows (editor window and browser window, clearly, but the debugger window would probably contain an editor widget and two browser widgets too, if it were structured like the current IDE debugger window). I would also like the IDE to be extensible. One of the things I want is the possibility to add tools for specific target areas. For example, something like a CGI developer would be really nice: it runs your script as if it is a CGI script, once you're happy with that you can actually run it as a real CGI script and finally you can deploy it. Something I want even more (and which is even more work) is a dead simple dialog/window creation tool, similar to what RealBasic (or, long ago, Hypercard) gives you. It should create perfectly normal nib files, and perfectly normal PyObjC code, so that it gives an easy learning curve from beginner to advanced. -- - Jack Jansen http://www.cwi.nl/~jack - - If I can't dance I don't want to be part of your revolution -- Emma Goldman - From Jack.Jansen at cwi.nl Tue Jul 29 22:46:28 2003 From: Jack.Jansen at cwi.nl (Jack Jansen) Date: Tue Jul 29 15:46:37 2003 Subject: [Pythonmac-SIG] Packmanager (appleDevTools) In-Reply-To: <46F4C89D-C1ED-11D7-A5F6-000393A47FF2@sandlotgames.com> Message-ID: <5886901C-C1FD-11D7-BE4F-000A27B19B96@cwi.nl> On dinsdag, jul 29, 2003, at 19:51 Europe/Amsterdam, Israel C. Evans wrote: > I've been trying to install PyObjC through the package manager and at > the end I'm told that the AppleDevTools need to be installed manually. > Does this refer to the Apple Developer tools from the extra developer > tools cd that came with macOSX 10.2 or to something else? > > I have installed the the developer tools, but am I missing something > here? Most likely is that you've come across a bug that I forgot to fix: if you set the "force" flag on a source install you get a spurious message about having to install the devtools by hand. It's very silly, really: the force flag is recursive, so it also tries to force-install all dependent packages, hence also the devtools, hence the error. The "force" flag shouldn't be recursive but only apply to the package you're actually asking to install. If this isn't what's happening then we should debug it. Could you send me the output of "ls -ld /Developer/Tools"? -- - Jack Jansen http://www.cwi.nl/~jack - - If I can't dance I don't want to be part of your revolution -- Emma Goldman - From Jack.Jansen at cwi.nl Tue Jul 29 22:48:00 2003 From: Jack.Jansen at cwi.nl (Jack Jansen) Date: Tue Jul 29 15:48:06 2003 Subject: [Pythonmac-SIG] Binary installer for MacPython-2.3rc2 available In-Reply-To: <2mwue1b3xs.fsf@starship.python.net> Message-ID: <8F243FEE-C1FD-11D7-BE4F-000A27B19B96@cwi.nl> On dinsdag, jul 29, 2003, at 20:09 Europe/Amsterdam, Michael Hudson wrote: > A problem I *didn't* have was the scrolling README thing. Did you > find the problem or am I just lucky? I should have mentioned this: I fixed this just before 2.3rc2. Turns out there are *two* files: a Welcome file and a README file. The Welcome doesn't scroll, ever. The README scrolls fine. So I've moved the old welcome file to the readme file, and used the first couple of paragraphs of it for the new welcome file. -- - Jack Jansen http://www.cwi.nl/~jack - - If I can't dance I don't want to be part of your revolution -- Emma Goldman - From israel at sandlotgames.com Tue Jul 29 13:51:58 2003 From: israel at sandlotgames.com (Israel C. Evans) Date: Tue Jul 29 15:52:21 2003 Subject: [Pythonmac-SIG] Packmanager (appleDevTools) In-Reply-To: <5886901C-C1FD-11D7-BE4F-000A27B19B96@cwi.nl> Message-ID: <1D6616E5-C1FE-11D7-A5F6-000393A47FF2@sandlotgames.com> That is indeed what I was doing.. I was forcing or overwriting the PyObjC package. Thanks. Glad to know what that was. On Tuesday, July 29, 2003, at 12:46 PM, Jack Jansen wrote: > > On dinsdag, jul 29, 2003, at 19:51 Europe/Amsterdam, Israel C. Evans > wrote: > >> I've been trying to install PyObjC through the package manager and at >> the end I'm told that the AppleDevTools need to be installed >> manually. >> Does this refer to the Apple Developer tools from the extra developer >> tools cd that came with macOSX 10.2 or to something else? >> >> I have installed the the developer tools, but am I missing something >> here? > > Most likely is that you've come across a bug that I forgot to fix: if > you set the "force" > flag on a source install you get a spurious message about having to > install the devtools > by hand. It's very silly, really: the force flag is recursive, so it > also tries to > force-install all dependent packages, hence also the devtools, hence > the error. The "force" > flag shouldn't be recursive but only apply to the package you're > actually asking to install. > > If this isn't what's happening then we should debug it. Could you send > me the output of > "ls -ld /Developer/Tools"? > -- > - Jack Jansen > http://www.cwi.nl/~jack - > - If I can't dance I don't want to be part of your revolution -- Emma > Goldman - > > > _______________________________________________ > Pythonmac-SIG maillist - Pythonmac-SIG@python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pythonmac-sig > > ~Israel~ From altis at semi-retired.com Tue Jul 29 14:08:55 2003 From: altis at semi-retired.com (Kevin Altis) Date: Tue Jul 29 16:02:13 2003 Subject: [Pythonmac-SIG] FAQ item In-Reply-To: <2A23E8DB-C1FA-11D7-BE4F-000A27B19B96@cwi.nl> Message-ID: > From: Jack Jansen > > On dinsdag, jul 29, 2003, at 19:06 Europe/Amsterdam, Skip Montanaro > wrote: > > > > > Israel> I would love for the PythonIDE to have Syntax coloring.. > > > > So submit a patch. ;-) > > Just a warning that people probably shouldn't spend too much time on > the current IDE: > we should consider it at the end of its useful life. The W toolkit on > which it > is built predates even Appearance Manager, and it's design has resisted > any > attempt to make it appearance-mgr compatible. Moreover, nowadays we > have Cocoa, > which would do a lot of things automatically, and there are lots > of all-singing-all-dancing edit widgets and other things available that > we could > put to good use. > > Some time next week I'd like to start a discussion on what people would > like > to see for the future, and what they're willing to help with. > Cocoa-ification > of IDE and Package Manager is going to be topmost on my list, that > much I know:-) I realize that the focus will in general be on Cocoa for the UI, but whenever possible the underlying mechanisms should probably not be Mac-specific unless everyone simply feels like reinventing the wheel and doesn't want to leverage the work going on with other platforms. This is especially true of the Package Manager, which Python desperately needs on all platforms. The PM is related to the larger problem of a CPAN-like repository for Python. PyPI starts to solve the directory problem and FreePAN might be a mechanism for distribution including mirroring. It is nice that the PM is getting so much attention, but it will help the Python community as a whole if the underlying mechanisms used can be applied to Linux, Windows, etc. later. Neil Hodgson has said that someone is working on a Cocoa port of Scintilla. People on this list might want to contact Neil to help push that forward so that Scintilla would be available from PyObjC and give editor/IDE authors a very fast and capable text editing engine. You can use it via wxPython today as the wxStyledTextCtrl, but the library still has some quirks on Mac OS X. Anyway, a native port would give you a great deal of capabilities for free rather than having to code them up from scratch. ka From Jack.Jansen at cwi.nl Tue Jul 29 23:08:53 2003 From: Jack.Jansen at cwi.nl (Jack Jansen) Date: Tue Jul 29 16:09:04 2003 Subject: The future (was: [Pythonmac-SIG] FAQ item) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <79DA2318-C200-11D7-BE4F-000A27B19B96@cwi.nl> On dinsdag, jul 29, 2003, at 21:29 Europe/Amsterdam, Bob Ippolito wrote: > What about the bootstrap problem (Package Manager vs. PyObjC)? > > You planning to make PyObjC one of MacPython 2.4's "batteries" ? Ow, okay, why not start this discussion right away. If everything happens as planned with Panther and Python 2.3 we are in an interesting situation: Apple will have forced the split between MacPython-the-engine and MacPython-the-tools. This means there will in effect be 2 MacPython distributions: a complete one for 10.2 and a tools-only (plus the waste module) for 10.3. This suddenly makes it a lot easier to replace the tools with a newer set of tools, even before 2.4 comes out, or OSX 10.4, or whatever. And it turns out this is actually true for a lot of the things I would like to get done when 2.3 is out of the way: Bob's new OSA interface and something either based on or similar to Bill Fancher's Python OSA component are two that spring to mind. [BTW: is there anyone here who knows Bill personally? If so: please contact me] I'm rather happy with the engine part as it is, there's some repackaging to be done (CoreFoundation and QuickTime should move out of Carbon, all three should be generated from OSX-native headers in stead of old Universal Headers, maybe the submodules of Carbon should become transparent, that sort of things), but I'm pretty delighted with the current state of things. So this means 2.4 would simply become a point in time at which we incorporate all the new tools and functionality into a single installer, deprecate the old functionality and kill the old tools. -- - Jack Jansen http://www.cwi.nl/~jack - - If I can't dance I don't want to be part of your revolution -- Emma Goldman - From Jack.Jansen at cwi.nl Tue Jul 29 23:13:10 2003 From: Jack.Jansen at cwi.nl (Jack Jansen) Date: Tue Jul 29 16:13:17 2003 Subject: [Pythonmac-SIG] Anyone interested in MacPython-OS9 2.4? Message-ID: <133D958C-C201-11D7-BE4F-000A27B19B96@cwi.nl> Now that we are cleaning up and discussing the future anyway: if anyone is interested in in having a MacPython-OS9 2.4 (that is two-point-*FOUR*) they should speak up now, and they'd better be prepared to do the work. Otherwise in a couple of weeks I will start slashing all the OS9 stuff from the CVS tree. Note that I will definitely do a MacPython-OS9 2.3 release and I will try to do 2.3.X releases too, time permitting. Even if I won't find the time to do 2.3.X all that stuff will be on a branch so someone else can do those. -- - Jack Jansen http://www.cwi.nl/~jack - - If I can't dance I don't want to be part of your revolution -- Emma Goldman - From gandreas at delver.com Tue Jul 29 16:14:38 2003 From: gandreas at delver.com (Glenn Andreas) Date: Tue Jul 29 16:15:42 2003 Subject: [Pythonmac-SIG] FAQ item Message-ID: At 9:41 PM +0200 7/29/03, Jack Jansen wrote: >On dinsdag, jul 29, 2003, at 19:18 Europe/Amsterdam, Glenn Andreas wrote: >>PyOXIDE does syntax coloring (and the next version should work >>correcty with 2.3), but it doesn't have the debugger that PythonIDE >>does (yet - it will soon though). It is, however, making extremely >>good progress (last night I added a simple module >>help/documentation window that uses pydoc) - it is really amazing >>how powerful Python + PyObjC + Cocoa really is. > >Glenn, >there were some questions here about your binary-only release of PyOXIDE, and >I don't recall seeing an answer from you yet on the subject of >PyOXIDE licensing. The current plan is freeware but the source to the Objective C portion is not available (but all the python portion is). The problem is that the editor is actually part of my Palm development IDE and so it still pretty well entangled (I plan to clean this up, but partially by bring _more_ of the IDE over, with things such as "projects"). All in all, the source editor is still quite a ways off from being a simple, stand-alone, drop-in, everything works, sort of thing (for example, right now it assumes that every document belongs to a project which keeps track of things such as break-points, as well as additional symbols to color, completion dictionaries, "find definition" double-click pop-ups, headers, etc... only some of which are relevant right now to PyOXIDE). >About the debugger: this is a part that is probably pulled over from >the existing >IDE relatively easy. There's also bits and pieces of a class/object >browser already >that we could use. It should, I just haven't looked in much detail into it yet. The object browser is basically the demo from PyObjC, and the interactive handler (see below) is very similar to the Interactive object in the existing IDE. >And in general: I would really like the IDE to be structured as a >set of widgets >(text I/O widget, editor widget, object browser widget, etc) that would then >be used in an extensible set of windows (editor window and browser >window, clearly, >but the debugger window would probably contain an editor widget and >two browser widgets >too, if it were structured like the current IDE debugger window). Currently (as of last night), the PyOXIDE architecture basically has an Objective-C subclass of an NSDocument for both the documents and the interactive windows, both of which are associated with a python "handler" object (sort of like a delegate, but with more responsibility). The Objective-C portion is actually a delegate for the text edit window (which includes a special subclass of NSText to handle the coloring, a subclass of NSScroller for the split panes, etc...), and it provides a bridge between AppKit and the handler object. These handler objects actually do nearly all the python stuff (for example, the various menu commands such as "Run" or "Run Selection" are now just another command that the NSDocument subclass forwards on to it's handler), so it is very extensible. >I would also like the IDE to be extensible. One of the things I want >is the possibility to add tools for specific target areas. For >example, something >like a CGI developer would be really nice: it runs your script as if it is >a CGI script, once you're happy with that you can actually run it as >a real CGI >script and finally you can deploy it. This is absolutely one of the things that I'm hoping for. That is part of the idea behind adding "projects" - you could make a project that has a special "run mode" for emulating a CGI-script, and that all of the following python source files are part of it, and when it works, press a couple of buttons and out pops everything all nicely and neatly packaged up (obviously being all neatly packaged up is more useful for a stand-alone app) > Something I want even more (and which is >even more work) is a dead simple dialog/window creation tool, similar to >what RealBasic (or, long ago, Hypercard) gives you. It should create perfectly >normal nib files, and perfectly normal PyObjC code, so that it gives an easy >learning curve from beginner to advanced. The biggest problem I see right there is that there is no documented way to create nib files except to use IB. Glenn Andreas gandreas@delver.com Author of Macintosh games: Theldrow 2.3, Blobbo 1.0.2, Cythera 1.0.2 Be good, and you will be lonesome From Jack.Jansen at cwi.nl Tue Jul 29 23:17:59 2003 From: Jack.Jansen at cwi.nl (Jack Jansen) Date: Tue Jul 29 16:18:09 2003 Subject: PackMan security (was: [Pythonmac-SIG] FAQ item) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On dinsdag, jul 29, 2003, at 21:29 Europe/Amsterdam, Bob Ippolito wrote: > I'd also like to mention that there are some pretty *serious security > flaws* with the current way Package Manager works that should be > higher priority than making it pretty. We need to start a new thread > discussing this.. is this the proper SIG for it? I'm not sure what the right place to discuss this is. Let's keep it here, for now. I plan to do a PEP later, but as PackMan solves a real problem I didn't want to get bogged down by zillions of people all trying to bend PackMan to their own needs until 2.3 was out. Let's hear about the security flaws. The only one I'm aware of is that the URL that is built in to packman isn't secure HTTP. From that point on I was under the impression that everything was secure. Or, "secure", let me rephrase that: there is only one person you put your trust in, and that is the person who created the database. -- - Jack Jansen http://www.cwi.nl/~jack - - If I can't dance I don't want to be part of your revolution -- Emma Goldman - From oussoren at cistron.nl Tue Jul 29 23:35:25 2003 From: oussoren at cistron.nl (Ronald Oussoren) Date: Tue Jul 29 16:35:39 2003 Subject: [Pythonmac-SIG] FAQ item In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2EF9161D-C204-11D7-A399-0003931CFE24@cistron.nl> On Tuesday, 29 July, 2003, at 22:14, Glenn Andreas wrote: > > >> Something I want even more (and which is >> even more work) is a dead simple dialog/window creation tool, similar >> to >> what RealBasic (or, long ago, Hypercard) gives you. It should create >> perfectly >> normal nib files, and perfectly normal PyObjC code, so that it gives >> an easy >> learning curve from beginner to advanced. > > The biggest problem I see right there is that there is no documented > way to create nib files except to use IB. > I've no idea if this is documented anywhere, but it is "common" knowlegde that nib files are archived Objective-C object graphs. The connections (outlets/actions) are the hard part, there are classes for these but no documentation on how to use the. Pretty printing a NIB should do wonders (and is left as an exercise for the reader). Ronald From Jack.Jansen at cwi.nl Tue Jul 29 23:28:54 2003 From: Jack.Jansen at cwi.nl (Jack Jansen) Date: Tue Jul 29 16:39:30 2003 Subject: [Pythonmac-SIG] FAQ item In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <461E67EE-C203-11D7-BE4F-000A27B19B96@cwi.nl> On dinsdag, jul 29, 2003, at 22:08 Europe/Amsterdam, Kevin Altis wrote: > I realize that the focus will in general be on Cocoa for the UI, but > whenever possible the underlying mechanisms should probably not be > Mac-specific unless everyone simply feels like reinventing the wheel > and > doesn't want to leverage the work going on with other platforms. Definitely true. And actually I think that by writing something in Cocoa you have a *better* chance of creating code portable to other gui-toolkits. Because of the Model-View-Controller paradigm Cocoa pretty much imposes there's a good chance you only have to rewrite the gui-glue. > This is especially true of the Package Manager, which Python > desperately > needs on all platforms. The PM is related to the larger problem of a > CPAN-like repository for Python. PyPI starts to solve the directory > problem > and FreePAN might be a mechanism for distribution including mirroring. > It is > nice that the PM is getting so much attention, but it will help the > Python > community as a whole if the underlying mechanisms used can be applied > to > Linux, Windows, etc. later. Let me get Guido's time machine [...] [POOF!]. What we call PackMan is actually two things: a low-level module pimp.py (currently in Lib/plat-mac) that does all the work, plus a pretty small GUI on top of it, Mac/Tools/IDE/PackageManager.py. There is actually a second top layer already: the main() program inside pimp.py itself. It is a command line tools that should run without any problems on any unix system (although I think it currently still depends on the curl unix tool). > Neil Hodgson has said that someone is working on a Cocoa port of > Scintilla. > People on this list might want to contact Neil to help push that > forward so > that Scintilla would be available from PyObjC and give editor/IDE > authors a > very fast and capable text editing engine. You can use it via wxPython > today > as the wxStyledTextCtrl, but the library still has some quirks on Mac > OS X. > Anyway, a native port would give you a great deal of capabilities for > free > rather than having to code them up from scratch. Phew, that would give us three things to choose from: Scintilla, PyOXIDE and whatever Just has been working on (although I'm not sure how fr he is). One reason more to make the new IDE design clean and extensible... -- - Jack Jansen http://www.cwi.nl/~jack - - If I can't dance I don't want to be part of your revolution -- Emma Goldman - From kevino at tulane.edu Tue Jul 29 14:36:50 2003 From: kevino at tulane.edu (Kevin Ollivier) Date: Tue Jul 29 16:39:47 2003 Subject: [Pythonmac-SIG] FAQ item In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <61B009AA-C204-11D7-8EAD-000393CB1C86@tulane.edu> On Tuesday, July 29, 2003, at 01:08 PM, Kevin Altis wrote: > > I realize that the focus will in general be on Cocoa for the UI, but > whenever possible the underlying mechanisms should probably not be > Mac-specific unless everyone simply feels like reinventing the wheel > and > doesn't want to leverage the work going on with other platforms. > > This is especially true of the Package Manager, which Python > desperately > needs on all platforms. The PM is related to the larger problem of a > CPAN-like repository for Python. PyPI starts to solve the directory > problem > and FreePAN might be a mechanism for distribution including mirroring. > It is > nice that the PM is getting so much attention, but it will help the > Python > community as a whole if the underlying mechanisms used can be applied > to > Linux, Windows, etc. later. I agree here. PM is *very* nice and it obviously is very applicable to all Python distros. I realize it may take time to make true cross-platform capabilities a reality here, but if we invest heavily in a Cocoa UI, then when it does go cross-platform, that just means someone has to re-build the UI from scratch. Jack and all, if I agreed to rebuild PM this weekend in wxPython (and it works ^_-), would you be open to using that as a starting point for future development? I think a set of Cocoa tools would be very cool for Cocoa/PyObjC development, but I think that some of these tools could be very useful to Python on all platforms. Kevin (O) From oussoren at cistron.nl Tue Jul 29 23:40:04 2003 From: oussoren at cistron.nl (Ronald Oussoren) Date: Tue Jul 29 16:40:12 2003 Subject: PackMan security (was: [Pythonmac-SIG] FAQ item) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tuesday, 29 July, 2003, at 22:17, Jack Jansen wrote: > > On dinsdag, jul 29, 2003, at 21:29 Europe/Amsterdam, Bob Ippolito > wrote: > >> I'd also like to mention that there are some pretty *serious security >> flaws* with the current way Package Manager works that should be >> higher priority than making it pretty. We need to start a new thread >> discussing this.. is this the proper SIG for it? > > I'm not sure what the right place to discuss this is. Let's keep it > here, for now. > I plan to do a PEP later, but as PackMan solves a real problem I > didn't want to get > bogged down by zillions of people all trying to bend PackMan to their > own needs > until 2.3 was out. > > Let's hear about the security flaws. The only one I'm aware of is that > the URL > that is built in to packman isn't secure HTTP. From that point on I > was under the > impression that everything was secure. Or, "secure", let me rephrase > that: there > is only one person you put your trust in, and that is the person who > created the > database. Let me pretend that I'm a security expert. Using HTTPS would not solve anything, unless you actually check the server certificate (and nobody seems to do that, I can't even look at certificates in Safari). Some kind of digitical signature of the plist files would probably more usefull: that would allow me to verify that the scapegoat actually placed that file on the webserver. Ronald From Jack.Jansen at cwi.nl Tue Jul 29 23:41:12 2003 From: Jack.Jansen at cwi.nl (Jack Jansen) Date: Tue Jul 29 16:41:19 2003 Subject: [Pythonmac-SIG] FAQ item In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On dinsdag, jul 29, 2003, at 22:05 Europe/Amsterdam, Glenn Andreas wrote: > At 9:41 PM +0200 7/29/03, Jack Jansen wrote: >> On dinsdag, jul 29, 2003, at 19:18 Europe/Amsterdam, Glenn Andreas >> wrote: >>> PyOXIDE does syntax coloring (and the next version should work >>> correcty with 2.3), but it doesn't have the debugger that PythonIDE >>> does (yet - it will soon though). It is, however, making extremely >>> good progress (last night I added a simple module help/documentation >>> window that uses pydoc) - it is really amazing how powerful Python + >>> PyObjC + Cocoa really is. >> >> Glenn, >> there were some questions here about your binary-only release of >> PyOXIDE, and >> I don't recall seeing an answer from you yet on the subject of >> PyOXIDE licensing. > > The current plan is freeware but the source to the Objective C portion > is not available (but all the python portion is). The problem is that > the editor is actually part of my Palm development IDE and so it still > pretty well entangled (I plan to clean this up, but partially by bring > _more_ of the IDE over, with things such as "projects"). This is going to be a real problem. One of the reasons (AFAIK) that the Apple is looking only at the engine part of MacPython and not the tools is that the tools depend on Waste. And while Waste is available in source form the license is hairy enough that they can't touch it. And even though for Python itself we're easier with licensing issues (I was happy when I got permission from Marco Piovanelli, the waste author) having something essential depend on something that is neither open source nor vendor supplied is going to be a problem. All in all, the source editor is still quite a ways off from being a simple, stand-alone, drop-in, everything works, sort of thing (for example, right now it assumes that every document belongs to a project which keeps track of things such as break-points, as well as additional symbols to color, completion dictionaries, "find definition" double-click pop-ups, headers, etc... only some of which are relevant right now to PyOXIDE). Is the code actually yours, or someone elses? If it is yours: could you be tempted to put it under two licenses? Note that Python is *not* GPL, it is BSD-style. So there are no problems with you distributing a non-open-source version of your code in another product, nor with you moving fixes from the Python community to your proprietary version. >> Something I want even more (and which is >> even more work) is a dead simple dialog/window creation tool, similar >> to >> what RealBasic (or, long ago, Hypercard) gives you. It should create >> perfectly >> normal nib files, and perfectly normal PyObjC code, so that it gives >> an easy >> learning curve from beginner to advanced. > > The biggest problem I see right there is that there is no documented > way to create nib files except to use IB. I'm pretty sure the NIB files are just serialized objects, dumped with the standard Foundation serializer whose name I always forget. -- - Jack Jansen http://www.cwi.nl/~jack - - If I can't dance I don't want to be part of your revolution -- Emma Goldman - From Jack.Jansen at cwi.nl Tue Jul 29 23:49:09 2003 From: Jack.Jansen at cwi.nl (Jack Jansen) Date: Tue Jul 29 16:49:16 2003 Subject: [Pythonmac-SIG] PackMan In-Reply-To: <61B009AA-C204-11D7-8EAD-000393CB1C86@tulane.edu> Message-ID: <1A44252C-C206-11D7-BE4F-000A27B19B96@cwi.nl> On dinsdag, jul 29, 2003, at 22:36 Europe/Amsterdam, Kevin Ollivier wrote: > Jack and all, if I agreed to rebuild PM this weekend in wxPython (and > it works ^_-), would you be open to using that as a starting point for > future development? I would very much like it if you redid PackMan in wxPython, and it should be easy, see my other mail on the subject. It will, of course, turn out not to be easy because I overlooked various things, but then we'll fix those [*]. I will not promise not to do a Cocoa version, though. MacPython 2.3 is, in my eyes, pretty much feature complete, but it's user-visible components are butt-ugly (or does that word offend Americans? Then read only "ugly" and blame it on my Irish ancestry:-). At some point in the not-too-distant future I want to have a set of tools that can compete with commercial offerings not only in functionality but also in look and feel and ease of use. -- - Jack Jansen http://www.cwi.nl/~jack - - If I can't dance I don't want to be part of your revolution -- Emma Goldman - From oussoren at cistron.nl Tue Jul 29 23:55:03 2003 From: oussoren at cistron.nl (Ronald Oussoren) Date: Tue Jul 29 16:55:14 2003 Subject: The future (was: [Pythonmac-SIG] FAQ item) In-Reply-To: <79DA2318-C200-11D7-BE4F-000A27B19B96@cwi.nl> References: <79DA2318-C200-11D7-BE4F-000A27B19B96@cwi.nl> Message-ID: On Tuesday, 29 July, 2003, at 22:08, Jack Jansen wrote: > > On dinsdag, jul 29, 2003, at 21:29 Europe/Amsterdam, Bob Ippolito > wrote: >> What about the bootstrap problem (Package Manager vs. PyObjC)? >> >> You planning to make PyObjC one of MacPython 2.4's "batteries" ? > Nah, PyObjC is planning a hostile takeover of MacPython :-) :-) > I'm rather happy with the engine part as it is, there's some > repackaging to be > done (CoreFoundation and QuickTime should move out of Carbon, all three > should be generated from OSX-native headers in stead of old Universal > Headers, > maybe the submodules of Carbon should become transparent, that sort of > things), > but I'm pretty delighted with the current state of things. What about wrapping more of CoreFoundation, such as CFRunLoop? Installing an upgraded version of the Carbon wrappers might be an "interesting" experience :-) > > So this means 2.4 would simply become a point in time at which we > incorporate > all the new tools and functionality into a single installer, deprecate > the old > functionality and kill the old tools. BTW. You didn't answer Bob's question ;-). I've no strong opionions on that issue yet, I'm happy enough with being a seperate project for now. Better integration with the rest of MacPython would be nice though, being able to do everything (Cocoa, Carbon, OSA, CGI scripts, ...) in Python is a major selling point for Python on the Mac. Ronald From Jack.Jansen at cwi.nl Tue Jul 29 23:55:38 2003 From: Jack.Jansen at cwi.nl (Jack Jansen) Date: Tue Jul 29 16:55:45 2003 Subject: PackMan security (was: [Pythonmac-SIG] FAQ item) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <02086313-C207-11D7-BE4F-000A27B19B96@cwi.nl> On dinsdag, jul 29, 2003, at 22:40 Europe/Amsterdam, Ronald Oussoren wrote: > Let me pretend that I'm a security expert. Using HTTPS would not solve > anything, unless you actually check the server certificate (and nobody > seems to do that, I can't even look at certificates in Safari). Some > kind of digitical signature of the plist files would probably more > usefull: that would allow me to verify that the scapegoat actually > placed that file on the webserver. Silly me, I forgot about this! I thought this problem was unsolvable, because I thought we had no channel to transport the public key to the end user safely, but I could of course have included the public key in the pimp source code... -- - Jack Jansen http://www.cwi.nl/~jack - - If I can't dance I don't want to be part of your revolution -- Emma Goldman - From Jack.Jansen at cwi.nl Wed Jul 30 00:02:47 2003 From: Jack.Jansen at cwi.nl (Jack Jansen) Date: Tue Jul 29 17:02:53 2003 Subject: [Pythonmac-SIG] PackMan In-Reply-To: <1A44252C-C206-11D7-BE4F-000A27B19B96@cwi.nl> Message-ID: <0178DD5D-C208-11D7-BE4F-000A27B19B96@cwi.nl> On dinsdag, jul 29, 2003, at 22:49 Europe/Amsterdam, Jack Jansen wrote: > > On dinsdag, jul 29, 2003, at 22:36 Europe/Amsterdam, Kevin Ollivier > wrote: >> Jack and all, if I agreed to rebuild PM this weekend in wxPython (and >> it works ^_-), would you be open to using that as a starting point >> for future development? > > I would very much like it if you redid PackMan in wxPython, and it > should be easy, see my other mail on the subject. It will, of course, > turn out not to be easy because I overlooked various things, but then > we'll fix those [*]. Error: dangling footnote:-) ^^^ [*] pimp can update itself, it tries to import a module "pimp_update", and if it exists things from pimp_update will override things from pimp itself. So if there are critical fixes we simply put out a new version. The current version (0.3) would then point to a database that offers one choice only: update pimp itself. Of course, none of this has been tested, but when we need it it will turn out to magically work without any debugging:-) -- - Jack Jansen http://www.cwi.nl/~jack - - If I can't dance I don't want to be part of your revolution -- Emma Goldman - From oussoren at cistron.nl Wed Jul 30 00:03:39 2003 From: oussoren at cistron.nl (Ronald Oussoren) Date: Tue Jul 29 17:03:46 2003 Subject: [Pythonmac-SIG] FAQ item In-Reply-To: <461E67EE-C203-11D7-BE4F-000A27B19B96@cwi.nl> References: <461E67EE-C203-11D7-BE4F-000A27B19B96@cwi.nl> Message-ID: <20B96EA4-C208-11D7-A399-0003931CFE24@cistron.nl> On Tuesday, 29 July, 2003, at 22:28, Jack Jansen wrote: >> > > Phew, that would give us three things to choose from: Scintilla, > PyOXIDE and > whatever Just has been working on (although I'm not sure how fr he > is). One reason > more to make the new IDE design clean and extensible... Syntax coloring works, that's the only thing I remember from what Just demoed me at EuroPython. I'm pretty sure his GUI did more than syntax coloring. Ronald From israel at sandlotgames.com Tue Jul 29 13:17:13 2003 From: israel at sandlotgames.com (Israel C. Evans) Date: Tue Jul 29 17:04:20 2003 Subject: [Pythonmac-SIG] Packmanager (appleDevTools) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <42368C90-C1F9-11D7-A5F6-000393A47FF2@sandlotgames.com> I'm using vanilla english mac os X, I haven't renamed /Developer and I don't think I've done anything with the permissions. cd / ls -l ... drwxrwxr-x 15 root admin 510 Jul 14 09:59 Developer/ ... cd Developer ls -l ... drwxrwxr-x 26 root admin 884 Jul 14 19:31 Tools/ The permissions look pretty lax so I don't think anything would have any trouble reading stuff here. And inside python, I'm doing this... Last login: Tue Jul 29 10:31:17 on ttyp2 Welcome to Darwin! [theOverneath:~] iz% python Python 2.3c2+ (#12, Jul 25 2003, 12:58:00) [GCC 3.1 20020420 (prerelease)] on darwin Type "help", "copyright", "credits" or "license" for more information. >>> import os >>> os.access >>> os.access("/Developer/Tools",0) True >>> ... On Tuesday, July 29, 2003, at 11:32 AM, Bob Ippolito wrote: > > On Tuesday, Jul 29, 2003, at 13:51 America/New_York, Israel C. Evans > wrote: > >> I've been trying to install PyObjC through the package manager and at >> the end I'm told that the AppleDevTools need to be installed >> manually. >> Does this refer to the Apple Developer tools from the extra developer >> tools cd that came with macOSX 10.2 or to something else? >> >> I have installed the the developer tools, but am I missing something >> here? > > The test for Developer Tools is: if not os.access("/Developer/Tools", > 0): raise NotInstalled > > Have you renamed or deleted something? Are you using a non-english > version of OS X that happens to call /Developer something else? Did > you screw with the permissions? Did you somehow install it to > somewhere other than the boot volume? > > -bob > > > ~Israel~ From oussoren at cistron.nl Wed Jul 30 00:09:37 2003 From: oussoren at cistron.nl (Ronald Oussoren) Date: Tue Jul 29 17:09:48 2003 Subject: [Pythonmac-SIG] PackMan In-Reply-To: <1A44252C-C206-11D7-BE4F-000A27B19B96@cwi.nl> References: <1A44252C-C206-11D7-BE4F-000A27B19B96@cwi.nl> Message-ID: On Tuesday, 29 July, 2003, at 22:49, Jack Jansen wrote: > > On dinsdag, jul 29, 2003, at 22:36 Europe/Amsterdam, Kevin Ollivier > wrote: >> Jack and all, if I agreed to rebuild PM this weekend in wxPython (and >> it works ^_-), would you be open to using that as a starting point >> for future development? > > I would very much like it if you redid PackMan in wxPython, and it > should be easy, see my other mail on the subject. It will, of course, > turn out not to be easy because I overlooked various things, but then > we'll fix those [*]. > > I will not promise not to do a Cocoa version, though. If you don't do a Cocoa version I might do it. Most cross-platform libraries seem to require endless tweaking to get the look and feel right. It is very hard to avoid ending up with a program that feels like the orginal platform on all platforms. And don't get me started on the wx table view, that's very ugly on MacOS X. Ronald From Jack.Jansen at cwi.nl Wed Jul 30 00:12:39 2003 From: Jack.Jansen at cwi.nl (Jack Jansen) Date: Tue Jul 29 17:12:46 2003 Subject: The future (was: [Pythonmac-SIG] FAQ item) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <62481139-C209-11D7-BE4F-000A27B19B96@cwi.nl> On dinsdag, jul 29, 2003, at 22:55 Europe/Amsterdam, Ronald Oussoren wrote: > > On Tuesday, 29 July, 2003, at 22:08, Jack Jansen wrote: > >> >> On dinsdag, jul 29, 2003, at 21:29 Europe/Amsterdam, Bob Ippolito >> wrote: >>> What about the bootstrap problem (Package Manager vs. PyObjC)? >>> >>> You planning to make PyObjC one of MacPython 2.4's "batteries" ? >> > Nah, PyObjC is planning a hostile takeover of MacPython :-) :-) Actually, that is indeed what I'm planning. I'm on both developer teams, why should I care what it's called:-) >> So this means 2.4 would simply become a point in time at which we >> incorporate >> all the new tools and functionality into a single installer, >> deprecate the old >> functionality and kill the old tools. > > BTW. You didn't answer Bob's question ;-). I've no strong opionions on > that issue yet, I'm happy enough with being a seperate project for > now. Better integration with the rest of MacPython would be nice > though, being able to do everything (Cocoa, Carbon, OSA, CGI scripts, > ...) in Python is a major selling point for Python on the Mac. I did now:-) I think the current split between the projects served us well, and will probably serve us well for some time to come. When things have stabilized more I think there's something to be said for integration, because it will make support and help easier. Moreover, I think that to the end user we should provide a unified face as soon as possible. >> I'm rather happy with the engine part as it is, there's some >> repackaging to be >> done (CoreFoundation and QuickTime should move out of Carbon, all >> three >> should be generated from OSX-native headers in stead of old Universal >> Headers, >> maybe the submodules of Carbon should become transparent, that sort >> of things), >> but I'm pretty delighted with the current state of things. > > What about wrapping more of CoreFoundation, such as CFRunLoop? > Installing an upgraded version of the Carbon wrappers might be an > "interesting" experience :-) You're absolutely right: CoreFoundation still needs work, I forgot about all the missing bits, and about the CF types not being new-style objects yet. And this is something we cannot really fix until 2.4, because the core contains references to "Carbon.CF" to allow third-party modules (such as PyObjC) to wrap CF objects. Bummer:-( -- - Jack Jansen http://www.cwi.nl/~jack - - If I can't dance I don't want to be part of your revolution -- Emma Goldman - From kevino at tulane.edu Tue Jul 29 15:33:08 2003 From: kevino at tulane.edu (Kevin Ollivier) Date: Tue Jul 29 17:35:58 2003 Subject: [Pythonmac-SIG] PackMan In-Reply-To: <1A44252C-C206-11D7-BE4F-000A27B19B96@cwi.nl> Message-ID: <3F3C513C-C20C-11D7-8EAD-000393CB1C86@tulane.edu> On Tuesday, July 29, 2003, at 01:49 PM, Jack Jansen wrote: > > On dinsdag, jul 29, 2003, at 22:36 Europe/Amsterdam, Kevin Ollivier > wrote: >> Jack and all, if I agreed to rebuild PM this weekend in wxPython (and >> it works ^_-), would you be open to using that as a starting point >> for future development? > > I would very much like it if you redid PackMan in wxPython, and it > should be easy, see my other mail on the subject. It will, of course, > turn out not to be easy because I overlooked various things, but then > we'll fix those [*]. I'll take a look and see what I can do. =) Thanks for sending the footnote, it was kinda ominous not being there. ;-) (Kinda like "oh yeah, and just watch out for the .... ARRRGGGGHHHH!") > I will not promise not to do a Cocoa version, though. MacPython 2.3 > is, in my eyes, pretty much feature complete, but it's user-visible > components are butt-ugly (or does that word offend Americans? Then > read only "ugly" and blame it on my Irish ancestry:-). I'm not offended by the word 'butt-ugly', in fact I think it makes the point much better than simply 'ugly' myself. ;-) But then again, I watch shows like Monty Python, South Park and Japanese Animation so it takes quite a bit to shock me. =) I did have a thought or two on how to make the PM a little prettier... We'll see what you think when it's ready. =) > At some point in the not-too-distant future I want to have a set of > tools that can compete with commercial offerings not only in > functionality but also in look and feel and ease of use. Hmmm... We're very much in agreement here. =) BTW, I think the PythonCard code editor is quite good in this regards. It offers syntax coloring, code folding, tab/space conversion (possibly even autocomplete now?) and personally it's the most complete Python IDE I've seen for any platform. I think it already does compete with commercial offerings - in fact, I think it beats them. ;) Oh, and I have a quick question regarding Cocoa - Are the graphics API, etc. somehow offer a superset of Carbon's functionality or does it basically do what Carbon does, only with a simpler/more intuitive API? If it's the former, than wxCocoa may mean you can have PM cross-platform and get your dose of Cocoa too. If the latter, well then it sounds like the point of making a Cocoa version is because it's just so pleasant to do. =) Thanks, Kevin From Jack.Jansen at cwi.nl Wed Jul 30 00:35:57 2003 From: Jack.Jansen at cwi.nl (Jack Jansen) Date: Tue Jul 29 17:36:05 2003 Subject: [Pythonmac-SIG] PackMan In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On dinsdag, jul 29, 2003, at 23:09 Europe/Amsterdam, Ronald Oussoren wrote: > > On Tuesday, 29 July, 2003, at 22:49, Jack Jansen wrote: > >> >> On dinsdag, jul 29, 2003, at 22:36 Europe/Amsterdam, Kevin Ollivier >> wrote: >>> Jack and all, if I agreed to rebuild PM this weekend in wxPython >>> (and it works ^_-), would you be open to using that as a starting >>> point for future development? >> >> I would very much like it if you redid PackMan in wxPython, and it >> should be easy, see my other mail on the subject. It will, of course, >> turn out not to be easy because I overlooked various things, but then >> we'll fix those [*]. >> >> I will not promise not to do a Cocoa version, though. > > If you don't do a Cocoa version I might do it. That is even better:-) How about you and Kevin turning this into a contest, let's see who has a replacement for the W-based package manager fastest? -- - Jack Jansen http://www.cwi.nl/~jack - - If I can't dance I don't want to be part of your revolution -- Emma Goldman - From Jack.Jansen at cwi.nl Wed Jul 30 00:37:47 2003 From: Jack.Jansen at cwi.nl (Jack Jansen) Date: Tue Jul 29 17:38:15 2003 Subject: [Pythonmac-SIG] (no subject) In-Reply-To: <07DD58C2-C1D7-11D7-A9B4-003065B2687E@hsc.wvu.edu> Message-ID: On dinsdag, jul 29, 2003, at 17:12 Europe/Amsterdam, Tom Elliott wrote: > Running MacPython-2.3 installed from the binary installer > MacPython-OSX-2.3rc2-3.dmg, under OS X 10.2.6. Used PackMan to > install everything available including PIL-1.1.4-binary > > If this script is run with the third line uncommented: > > import Image > im = Image.open("/Users/telliott/Desktop/x.jpg") > im.show() > print "got here" > > I get the classic "IOError: decoder jpeg not available", which I've > seen discussed at length here and elsewhere. But I thought that since > Jack "built the PIL distribution on a system where libjpeg was > available" this shouldn't happen. Did I just screw up or what? No, I screwed up. This will be fixed after the 2.3 binary installer gets built, but before it is announced to a wider audience. In other words: I expect the folks here to debug this;-) -- - Jack Jansen http://www.cwi.nl/~jack - - If I can't dance I don't want to be part of your revolution -- Emma Goldman - From bob at redivi.com Tue Jul 29 19:18:51 2003 From: bob at redivi.com (Bob Ippolito) Date: Tue Jul 29 18:19:06 2003 Subject: [Pythonmac-SIG] PackMan In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tuesday, Jul 29, 2003, at 17:35 America/New_York, Jack Jansen wrote: > > On dinsdag, jul 29, 2003, at 23:09 Europe/Amsterdam, Ronald Oussoren > wrote: >> >> On Tuesday, 29 July, 2003, at 22:49, Jack Jansen wrote: >>> >>> On dinsdag, jul 29, 2003, at 22:36 Europe/Amsterdam, Kevin Ollivier >>> wrote: >>>> Jack and all, if I agreed to rebuild PM this weekend in wxPython >>>> (and it works ^_-), would you be open to using that as a starting >>>> point for future development? >>> >>> I would very much like it if you redid PackMan in wxPython, and it >>> should be easy, see my other mail on the subject. It will, of >>> course, turn out not to be easy because I overlooked various things, >>> but then we'll fix those [*]. >>> >>> I will not promise not to do a Cocoa version, though. >> >> If you don't do a Cocoa version I might do it. > > That is even better:-) > How about you and Kevin turning this into a contest, let's see who has > a replacement > for the W-based package manager fastest? I'm going to figure out how we can get some cryptographic authority into the plist files. Since we run into the bootstrapping problem if we depend on pyOpenSSL or the like, I think we should just fork the openssl command line tool to do what we need it to do. It's guaranteed to be there for MacOS X anyhow. I don't think the plist file should be encrypted, but it should have a digital signature that says yes, this was signed by the official MacPython certificate authority (which the source code for Python will trust by default). I think we should also think about moving away from the "exec stuff to see if exceptions happen" model and try and come up with a set of predetermined and presumably safe commands that can determine if a module is installed or not and what version it is. IMHO, any module that does import time nastiness (*cough*wxPython*cough*) should be fixed so that it's at least safe to open up an __init__.py and read out a __version__ or what have you. It should also be made clear that all (3rd party?) python modules and packages should start putting __version__ in their base package or module if they are to be considered for PyPI / PIMP / Package Manager inclusion. -bob From gandreas at delver.com Tue Jul 29 18:31:22 2003 From: gandreas at delver.com (Glenn Andreas) Date: Tue Jul 29 18:32:34 2003 Subject: [Pythonmac-SIG] FAQ item In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 10:41 PM +0200 7/29/03, Jack Jansen wrote: >On dinsdag, jul 29, 2003, at 22:05 Europe/Amsterdam, Glenn Andreas wrote: > >>At 9:41 PM +0200 7/29/03, Jack Jansen wrote: >>>On dinsdag, jul 29, 2003, at 19:18 Europe/Amsterdam, Glenn Andreas wrote: >>>>PyOXIDE does syntax coloring (and the next version should work >>>>correcty with 2.3), but it doesn't have the debugger that >>>>PythonIDE does (yet - it will soon though). It is, however, >>>>making extremely good progress (last night I added a simple >>>>module help/documentation window that uses pydoc) - it is really >>>>amazing how powerful Python + PyObjC + Cocoa really is. >>> >>>Glenn, >>>there were some questions here about your binary-only release of >>>PyOXIDE, and >>>I don't recall seeing an answer from you yet on the subject of >>>PyOXIDE licensing. >> >>The current plan is freeware but the source to the Objective C >>portion is not available (but all the python portion is). The >>problem is that the editor is actually part of my Palm development >>IDE and so it still pretty well entangled (I plan to clean this up, >>but partially by bring _more_ of the IDE over, with things such as >>"projects"). > >This is going to be a real problem. One of the reasons (AFAIK) that >the Apple is looking >only at the engine part of MacPython and not the tools is that the >tools depend on Waste. >And while Waste is available in source form the license is hairy >enough that they >can't touch it. > >And even though for Python itself we're easier with licensing issues >(I was happy >when I got permission from Marco Piovanelli, the waste author) >having something essential >depend on something that is neither open source nor vendor supplied >is going to be a problem. I see - makes sense. Hopefully, this isn't going to be a major problem down the road, just currently (see below) > > All in all, the source editor is still quite a ways off from being >a simple, stand-alone, drop-in, everything works, sort of thing (for >example, right now it assumes that every document belongs to a >project which keeps track of things such as break-points, as well as >additional symbols to color, completion dictionaries, "find >definition" double-click pop-ups, headers, etc... only some of which >are relevant right now to PyOXIDE). > >Is the code actually yours, or someone elses? If it is yours: could >you be tempted >to put it under two licenses? Note that Python is *not* GPL, it is >BSD-style. So there >are no problems with you distributing a non-open-source version of >your code in another >product, nor with you moving fixes from the Python community to your >proprietary >version. It's all mine, mine, all mine!!! Sorry. I couldn't resist. But the code is actually mine, so I can do whatever is needed... So here's the basic idea - at some point I'll have the editor nicely separated out into it's own framework - I may even have the "project" handling done in a similar way. The editor would then have little plug-ins for different languages (for things like syntax coloring, indent handling, function popups, etc... - these may even be written in python instead of their current ObjC), and it may well have built-in support for embedded python scripts (for use in something that isn't a Python IDE). Those pieces, as well as the small obj-c skeleton with Python infrastructure to use these frameworks would be released as source code. I just don't know what the timeframe is at this point - I'd rather try to figure out the features and underlying architecture than worry right now about cleaning things up to release them. It's ironic, but just today there has been talk on the Cocoa mailing list about the desire for some sort of syntax coloring supporting editor window framework source project thingy (since "How do I make syntax coloring of an NSTextView work" is a fairly common question). Glenn Andreas gandreas@delver.com Author of Macintosh games: Theldrow 2.3, Blobbo 1.0.2, Cythera 1.0.2 Be good, and you will be lonesome From altis at semi-retired.com Tue Jul 29 17:00:28 2003 From: altis at semi-retired.com (Kevin Altis) Date: Tue Jul 29 18:53:47 2003 Subject: [Pythonmac-SIG] PyPI trove categorization and Mac OS X Message-ID: If you look at the current breakdown of PyPI categories you'll see Mac OS X is not represented. http://www.python.org/pypi?:action=browse There are trove categories for Mac OS X. http://www.python.org/pypi?:action=list_classifiers Since I know that at least two packages (PythonCard and PyObjC) and probably many more actually list some of these Mac items on platform and classifiers... Platform: Mac OS X, Windows, Linux Classifiers: Environment :: MacOS X :: Aqua ... Operating System :: MacOS :: MacOS X ...there must be something about PyPI that is not set to show Mac OS X as a top-level item while browsing. This should be fixed. ka From zen at shangri-la.dropbear.id.au Wed Jul 30 12:35:50 2003 From: zen at shangri-la.dropbear.id.au (Stuart Bishop) Date: Tue Jul 29 21:36:12 2003 Subject: [Pythonmac-SIG] PIL & _tkinter in PackageManager In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <26A2D46E-C22E-11D7-ACCD-000A95A06FC6@shangri-la.dropbear.id.au> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Wednesday, July 30, 2003, at 07:37 AM, Jack Jansen wrote: > On dinsdag, jul 29, 2003, at 17:12 Europe/Amsterdam, Tom Elliott wrote: > >> Running MacPython-2.3 installed from the binary installer >> MacPython-OSX-2.3rc2-3.dmg, under OS X 10.2.6. Used PackMan to >> install everything available including PIL-1.1.4-binary >> >> If this script is run with the third line uncommented: >> >> import Image >> im = Image.open("/Users/telliott/Desktop/x.jpg") >> im.show() >> print "got here" >> >> I get the classic "IOError: decoder jpeg not available", which I've >> seen discussed at length here and elsewhere. But I thought that >> since Jack "built the PIL distribution on a system where libjpeg was >> available" this shouldn't happen. Did I just screw up or what? > > No, I screwed up. This will be fixed after the 2.3 binary installer > gets built, but before it is announced to a wider audience. In other > words: I expect the folks here to debug this;-) And while we are discussing PIL: It won't build without _tkinter support (looks like a bug in setup.py), so this dependancy needs to be added to PIL-1.1.4-source Installing _tkinter works, although at first glance it appears to fail with a popup: (TclTkAqua): This package needs to be installed manually (no Download-URL field) TclTkAqua is already installed happily and recognized by PM, so I guess this message shouldn't be raised. After installing _tkinter, PIL-source still dies with: gcc -Wl,-x -Wl,-F. -bundle -framework Python build/temp.darwin-6.6-Power_Macintosh-2.3/_imagingtk.o build/temp.darwin-6.6-Power_Macintosh-2.3/Tk/tkImaging.o -LlibImaging - -lImaging -o build/lib.darwin-6.6-Power_Macintosh-2.3/_imagingtk.so ld: Undefined symbols: _Tcl_AppendResult _Tcl_CreateCommand _Tk_FindPhoto _Tk_PhotoBlank _Tk_PhotoPutBlock_NoComposite error: command 'gcc' failed with exit status 1 But readline rocks :-) - -- Stuart Bishop http://shangri-la.dropbear.id.au/ -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.2 (Darwin) iD8DBQE/JyD6h8iUz1x5geARApm+AKCbkcIhmGwQk6YcfbRUjw7Di/cx7QCeJQOW Iyt8F+vHSInKxnJ0tKzn7eE= =k2/i -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From richardjones at optushome.com.au Wed Jul 30 10:29:37 2003 From: richardjones at optushome.com.au (Richard Jones) Date: Wed Jul 30 04:58:15 2003 Subject: [Pythonmac-SIG] Re: [Catalog-sig] PyPI trove categorization and Mac OS X In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200307300929.37113.richardjones@optushome.com.au> On Wed, 30 Jul 2003 09:00 am, Kevin Altis wrote: > If you look at the current breakdown of PyPI categories you'll see Mac OS X > is not represented. > > http://www.python.org/pypi?:action=browse > > There are trove categories for Mac OS X. > > http://www.python.org/pypi?:action=list_classifiers > > Since I know that at least two packages (PythonCard and PyObjC) and > probably many more actually list some of these Mac items on platform and > classifiers... That is very strange, I'll look into it ASAP. > ...there must be something about PyPI that is not set to show Mac OS X as a > top-level item while browsing. This should be fixed. Nope, the code is completely general - there's no "filter out the Mac OS X" applications" code in there :) Richard -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: signature Url : http://mail.python.org/pipermail/pythonmac-sig/attachments/20030730/5d7e360b/attachment-0001.bin From richardjones at optushome.com.au Wed Jul 30 11:34:10 2003 From: richardjones at optushome.com.au (Richard Jones) Date: Wed Jul 30 04:58:22 2003 Subject: [Pythonmac-SIG] Re: [Catalog-sig] PyPI trove categorization and Mac OS X In-Reply-To: <200307300929.37113.richardjones@optushome.com.au> References: <200307300929.37113.richardjones@optushome.com.au> Message-ID: <200307301034.14042.richardjones@optushome.com.au> On Wed, 30 Jul 2003 09:29 am, Richard Jones wrote: > On Wed, 30 Jul 2003 09:00 am, Kevin Altis wrote: > > ...there must be something about PyPI that is not set to show Mac OS X as > > a top-level item while browsing. This should be fixed. > > Nope, the code is completely general - there's no "filter out the Mac OS X" > applications" code in there :) Code is fixed. Max OSX (and some other categories) now no longer hidden. Richard -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: signature Url : http://mail.python.org/pipermail/pythonmac-sig/attachments/20030730/9802f344/attachment-0001.bin From Jack.Jansen at cwi.nl Wed Jul 30 17:56:14 2003 From: Jack.Jansen at cwi.nl (Jack Jansen) Date: Wed Jul 30 10:53:57 2003 Subject: [Pythonmac-SIG] For your eyes only: MacPython 2.3 final Message-ID: Folks, I think MacPython 2.3 is finished. The installer should work, all the PackMan stuff should be in place and the new website is there. Please go to and give it a try. Also please try to install some stuff through PackMan: I think I have fixed everything so report back if something misbehaves. I will let you all have a go at it for another day or two, so we can iron out the last issues, and then I'll announce it more widely. -- Jack Jansen, , http://www.cwi.nl/~jack If I can't dance I don't want to be part of your revolution -- Emma Goldman From kevino at tulane.edu Wed Jul 30 09:11:41 2003 From: kevino at tulane.edu (Kevin Ollivier) Date: Wed Jul 30 11:14:33 2003 Subject: [Pythonmac-SIG] For your eyes only: MacPython 2.3 final In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1FFF0E42-C2A0-11D7-8EAD-000393CB1C86@tulane.edu> Hi Jack, I think there's a broken link on the downloads page - it points to macPython2.3-rc2-3.dmg, but when I click on it I get a 404. Kevin On Wednesday, July 30, 2003, at 07:56 AM, Jack Jansen wrote: > Folks, > I think MacPython 2.3 is finished. The installer should work, all the > PackMan > stuff should be in place and the new website is there. > > Please go to and give it a try. > Also please try to install some stuff through PackMan: I think I have > fixed > everything so report back if something misbehaves. > > I will let you all have a go at it for another day or two, so we can > iron out the > last issues, and then I'll announce it more widely. > -- > Jack Jansen, , http://www.cwi.nl/~jack > If I can't dance I don't want to be part of your revolution -- Emma > Goldman > > > _______________________________________________ > Pythonmac-SIG maillist - Pythonmac-SIG@python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pythonmac-sig > From Jack.Jansen at cwi.nl Wed Jul 30 18:29:06 2003 From: Jack.Jansen at cwi.nl (Jack Jansen) Date: Wed Jul 30 11:26:50 2003 Subject: [Pythonmac-SIG] For your eyes only: MacPython 2.3 final In-Reply-To: <1FFF0E42-C2A0-11D7-8EAD-000393CB1C86@tulane.edu> Message-ID: <8EDAA3CC-C2A2-11D7-9085-0030655234CE@cwi.nl> On Wednesday, Jul 30, 2003, at 17:11 Europe/Amsterdam, Kevin Ollivier wrote: > Hi Jack, > > I think there's a broken link on the downloads page - it points to > macPython2.3-rc2-3.dmg, but when I click on it I get a 404. Yes, pretty stupid, isn't it? :-) I've fixed it, -- Jack Jansen, , http://www.cwi.nl/~jack If I can't dance I don't want to be part of your revolution -- Emma Goldman From israel at sandlotgames.com Wed Jul 30 09:35:16 2003 From: israel at sandlotgames.com (Israel C. Evans) Date: Wed Jul 30 11:35:44 2003 Subject: [Pythonmac-SIG] For your eyes only: MacPython 2.3 final In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <6B4293A5-C2A3-11D7-9C77-000393A47FF2@sandlotgames.com> Which is the recommended way of installing this? Delete the old version and do a clean install or install over the old version? On Wednesday, July 30, 2003, at 07:56 AM, Jack Jansen wrote: > Folks, > I think MacPython 2.3 is finished. The installer should work, all the > PackMan > stuff should be in place and the new website is there. > > Please go to and give it a try. > Also please try to install some stuff through PackMan: I think I have > fixed > everything so report back if something misbehaves. > > I will let you all have a go at it for another day or two, so we can > iron out the > last issues, and then I'll announce it more widely. > -- > Jack Jansen, , http://www.cwi.nl/~jack > If I can't dance I don't want to be part of your revolution -- Emma > Goldman > > > _______________________________________________ > Pythonmac-SIG maillist - Pythonmac-SIG@python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pythonmac-sig > > ~Israel~ From bob at redivi.com Wed Jul 30 15:02:26 2003 From: bob at redivi.com (Bob Ippolito) Date: Wed Jul 30 14:02:32 2003 Subject: [Pythonmac-SIG] For your eyes only: MacPython 2.3 final In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wednesday, July 30, 2003, at 10:56AM, Jack Jansen wrote: > Folks, > I think MacPython 2.3 is finished. The installer should work, all the > PackMan > stuff should be in place and the new website is there. > > Please go to and give it a try. > Also please try to install some stuff through PackMan: I think I have > fixed > everything so report back if something misbehaves. > > I will let you all have a go at it for another day or two, so we can > iron out the > last issues, and then I'll announce it more widely. Panther 7B21 with the Panther 7B21 dev tools, AquaTclTk installed, MacPython 2.3 "final" (Darwin Kernel is still Version 7.0.0b1) PackageManager still has the "Overwrite" acts recursive for dependencies bug. You'll still get messages like this: (AppleDevTools): This package needs to be installed manually (no Download-URL field) if you overwrite. http://www.python.org/packman/version-0.3/darwin-6.6- Power_Macintosh.plist: Documentation-2.3-binary - Assuming it works? Didn't bother to test PyObjC-1.0b1-source - Works readline-2.3-source - Works Numeric-22.0-source - Works PyOpenGL-2.0.1.04beta-source - Works, but: Apple's GLUT changes the cwd to the Resources directory of Python.app when you glutInit (i forgot about this one) I didn't get Togl, is this a TclTk battery or a PyOpenGL+_tkinter thing? PIL-1.1.4-source - Works, but: did not get jpeg (not already installed) did not get freetype (not already installed) - I'll make a source recipe that downloads and compiles libjpeg/freetype and links these statically _tkinter-2.3-binary - Works - I'll make a source recipe for this IDLE-2.3-binary - Works, but: has the to-be-expected-from-AquaTclTk display bugs and messed up "tear-off" menus From israel at sandlotgames.com Wed Jul 30 13:11:40 2003 From: israel at sandlotgames.com (Israel C. Evans) Date: Wed Jul 30 15:12:05 2003 Subject: [Pythonmac-SIG] For your eyes only: MacPython 2.3 final In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I ripped everything out and did a clean install. After trying the Package manage to download wxpython to /tmp, I installed it manually, and tried importing wxPython into command line python and got this error: >>> import wxPython 12:06:19: Debug: wxMac library installation name is '/usr/local/lib/libwx_macd-2.4.0.dylib' 12:06:19: Debug: wxMac resources file name is '/usr/local/lib/libwx_macd-2.4.0.rsrc' All I did was try to import all the packages and this is the only one that didn't work as planned. Everything else imported nicely. Any recommendations on how I should test these guys? On Wednesday, July 30, 2003, at 11:02 AM, Bob Ippolito wrote: > > On Wednesday, July 30, 2003, at 10:56AM, Jack Jansen wrote: > >> Folks, >> I think MacPython 2.3 is finished. The installer should work, all the >> PackMan >> stuff should be in place and the new website is there. >> >> Please go to and give it a try. >> Also please try to install some stuff through PackMan: I think I have >> fixed >> everything so report back if something misbehaves. >> >> I will let you all have a go at it for another day or two, so we can >> iron out the >> last issues, and then I'll announce it more widely. > > Panther 7B21 with the Panther 7B21 dev tools, AquaTclTk installed ~Israel~ From kevino at tulane.edu Wed Jul 30 13:28:58 2003 From: kevino at tulane.edu (Kevin Ollivier) Date: Wed Jul 30 15:32:10 2003 Subject: [Pythonmac-SIG] For your eyes only: MacPython 2.3 final In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <111CD686-C2C4-11D7-8EAD-000393CB1C86@tulane.edu> On Wednesday, July 30, 2003, at 12:11 PM, Israel C. Evans wrote: > > I ripped everything out and did a clean install. > After trying the Package manage to download wxpython to /tmp, I > installed it manually, and tried importing wxPython into command line > python and got this error: > > >>> import wxPython > 12:06:19: Debug: wxMac library installation name is > '/usr/local/lib/libwx_macd-2.4.0.dylib' > 12:06:19: Debug: wxMac resources file name is > '/usr/local/lib/libwx_macd-2.4.0.rsrc' > > > All I did was try to import all the packages and this is the only one > that didn't work as planned. > Everything else imported nicely. > > Any recommendations on how I should test these guys? If you downloaded and ran the wxPython installer disk image, you should see a new folder in Applications called "wxPythonOSX-2.4.1.2". Inside this is a set of wxPython demo scripts, which you can double-click from the finder to run. BTW, those debug messages are harmless. They are actually indicating that the library did start up correctly. Hope this helps, Kevin > On Wednesday, July 30, 2003, at 11:02 AM, Bob Ippolito wrote: > >> >> On Wednesday, July 30, 2003, at 10:56AM, Jack Jansen wrote: >> >>> Folks, >>> I think MacPython 2.3 is finished. The installer should work, all >>> the PackMan >>> stuff should be in place and the new website is there. >>> >>> Please go to and give it a try. >>> Also please try to install some stuff through PackMan: I think I >>> have fixed >>> everything so report back if something misbehaves. >>> >>> I will let you all have a go at it for another day or two, so we can >>> iron out the >>> last issues, and then I'll announce it more widely. >> >> Panther 7B21 with the Panther 7B21 dev tools, AquaTclTk installed > > > > ~Israel~ > > > _______________________________________________ > Pythonmac-SIG maillist - Pythonmac-SIG@python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pythonmac-sig > From Jack.Jansen at cwi.nl Wed Jul 30 23:39:04 2003 From: Jack.Jansen at cwi.nl (Jack Jansen) Date: Wed Jul 30 16:39:16 2003 Subject: [Pythonmac-SIG] For your eyes only: MacPython 2.3 final In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On woensdag, jul 30, 2003, at 20:02 Europe/Amsterdam, Bob Ippolito wrote: > Panther 7B21 with the Panther 7B21 dev tools, AquaTclTk installed, > MacPython 2.3 "final" > (Darwin Kernel is still Version 7.0.0b1) Ok, great! I'll start a Panther database some time next week with this info. And a few comments on your comments: > PyOpenGL-2.0.1.04beta-source > - Works, but: > Apple's GLUT changes the cwd to the Resources directory of > Python.app when you glutInit (i forgot about this one) This is standard silly behaviour from MacOSX glut, nothing we can do about it. > I didn't get Togl, is this a TclTk battery or a PyOpenGL+_tkinter > thing? I have never used it, but I think it's Tcl/Tk. > PIL-1.1.4-source > - Works, but: > did not get jpeg (not already installed) > did not get freetype (not already installed) > - I'll make a source recipe that downloads and compiles > libjpeg/freetype and links these statically I would say "don't bother". The binary installers are by far the most important, and I don't want to clutter PackMan with more than two different types of distribution types per package. Also, if at all possible I want to use the original source distribution. For pil-1.1.4 this wasn't possible, because I probably made a mistake when I sent the last modifications to Fredrik, but this should be fixed for 1.1.5, and then we can get the normal source distribution again. > _tkinter-2.3-binary > - Works > - I'll make a source recipe for this Same here. And the same would have been true for readline too, if it wasn't for the problem with the dynamic library. If you can't wait to start work on PackMan I think the best thing to do is come up with binary installers for packages that aren't featured yet. You had a list last week that looked promising. I think the best way to get this started is that you create a database somewhere, then I'll link to it on www.python.org/packman as a second experimental database. Then, as there is time (and demand) we migrate things to the primary database. -- - Jack Jansen http://www.cwi.nl/~jack - - If I can't dance I don't want to be part of your revolution -- Emma Goldman - From bob at redivi.com Wed Jul 30 17:57:41 2003 From: bob at redivi.com (Bob Ippolito) Date: Wed Jul 30 16:57:55 2003 Subject: [Pythonmac-SIG] For your eyes only: MacPython 2.3 final In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7608153C-C2D0-11D7-ACE0-000393582924@redivi.com> On Wednesday, July 30, 2003, at 4:39PM, Jack Jansen wrote: > > On woensdag, jul 30, 2003, at 20:02 Europe/Amsterdam, Bob Ippolito > wrote: > >> Panther 7B21 with the Panther 7B21 dev tools, AquaTclTk installed, >> MacPython 2.3 "final" >> (Darwin Kernel is still Version 7.0.0b1) > > Ok, great! I'll start a Panther database some time next week with this > info. > > And a few comments on your comments: >> PyOpenGL-2.0.1.04beta-source >> - Works, but: >> Apple's GLUT changes the cwd to the Resources directory of >> Python.app when you glutInit (i forgot about this one) > > This is standard silly behaviour from MacOSX glut, nothing we can do > about it. We can submit a patch/bug report to PyOpenGL.. or distribute a modified version of PyOpenGL. > >> I didn't get Togl, is this a TclTk battery or a PyOpenGL+_tkinter >> thing? > > I have never used it, but I think it's Tcl/Tk. > >> PIL-1.1.4-source >> - Works, but: >> did not get jpeg (not already installed) >> did not get freetype (not already installed) >> - I'll make a source recipe that downloads and compiles >> libjpeg/freetype and links these statically > > I would say "don't bother". The binary installers are by far the most > important, and I don't want to clutter PackMan with more than two > different types of distribution types per package. Also, if at all > possible I want to use the original source distribution. For pil-1.1.4 > this wasn't possible, because I probably made a mistake when I sent > the last modifications to Fredrik, but this should be fixed for 1.1.5, > and then we can get the normal source distribution again. Well, the source recipe that downloads/compiles the dependencies makes it easier for us to create the binary package (i.e. it makes it easy for you, who has fink installed, to create binary packages that do not depend on fink ;) I'm about to send a large email out with ideas for the future of Package Manager as I see it. Currently I'm more interested in adding cryptographic authenticity to Package Manager before I start maintaining a lot of packages. OH, one thing that's important to note is that XCode *DOES NOT HAVE PBXBUILD*, which I believe the Python 2.3 build process depends on. Instead, it's renamed to xcodebuild!!! Donovan and I figured this out today. If you still have pbxbuild on your machine, it's from a previous installation and is linking to old frameworks and doing old things (they renamed a lot of Developer Tools frameworks and stuff). -bob From bob at redivi.com Wed Jul 30 18:01:51 2003 From: bob at redivi.com (Bob Ippolito) Date: Wed Jul 30 17:01:58 2003 Subject: [Pythonmac-SIG] PackageManager / Python 2.3.x - 2.4 ideas Message-ID: <0ADF90F5-C2D1-11D7-ACE0-000393582924@redivi.com> These are some ideas for future versions of Package Manager and friends... Should remove shell executable dependencies because python does these tar unzip zip curl (not sure if it uses there or not) rm mv Should leverage metadata from PyPI in some way Should read proxy settings from OS X rather than using environment variables.. allow a user override, store this as a preference Should allow user to override 'scratch area', they might not always have space in /tmp .. store this as a preference We should write a cross-platform "preferences" module for python that: Uses the registry in win32 to determine a folders for global/user plists, and then uses that :) Uses ~/Library/Preferences/plists and /Library/Preferences/plists in OS X Uses somewhere/plists for global settings on unix and ~/.dotfolder/plists in UNIX Not have separate plist files for each distutils.util.get_platform() -- this is only semi-useful for binary OS X packages, and not useful at all for other operating systems. Have a cryptographically authenticated way of determining the authenticity of 'stuff'. My search to find a pure python way to do this failed miserably, *everyone* is using C sourcecode for this. So my proposal for this would be to have two options (1) execute the openssl utility if available (2) use pyOpenSSL to do it. With CPAN for example, if you don't have a perl module to do something, it will use whatever shell utility it can find to do the task until you actually install the module that CPAN is looking for. I'm doing some research to figure out what would be a good way to actually execute this. I'm thinking that Python becomes a central CA, and package repository maintainers get certificates from the Python CA. Perhaps it may also be possible to have a package repository maintainer authorize an individual package maintainer to manage their package (perform releases directly without bothering the package repository maintainer), perhaps these could live in an "experimental" repository, and then upon approval from a package repository maintainer goes into the "official" repository. OpenSSL also guarantees that we don't really have to worry about how secure the implementation is so long as the application is otherwise securely designed. Allow users to trust additional CAs, store those as a preference. The current infrastructure that uses PackageManager is susceptible to all kinds of attacks (any sort of 'man in the middle' attack: dns spoofing, server hacking, etc). Keep receipts for installed packages, even if we don't write an uninstaller. Keep track of dependency versions.. for example, FooBar 2.0 might require a minimum BarBaz of 1.0 and is tested compatible up to BarBaz 1.5. BarBaz might release a wonderful 1.6 version that breaks some behavior that FooBar 2.0 or whatever other packages depended on. Upgrading to BarBaz 1.6 should warn the user that "FooBar 2.0 and SuperAlice 1.5 are dependent on BarBaz 1.0-1.5, but are not tested to work with BarBaz 1.6. This upgrade may require upgrades to these dependencies". Dependency graphs are a lot of fun, but we're all good programmers here and we can't be lazy all the time. Package Manager should be able to install distutils-based setup.py source distributions that a user has on his harddrive or at any arbitrary URL (i.e. not in the plist) either by dragging the tgz/zip to PackageManager, picking a folder with a setup.py in it, or picking a setup.py. Package Manager should be organized categorically, like PyPI. (i.e. they should be heavily integrated). We should test upgrades to Package Manager :) All of Package Manager's functionality should really be in platform independent "designed" modules (meaning they don't have to support other platforms yet, just designed with that intent). Package Manager should be a responsive application, either by using nonblocking methods to speak with spawned processes. Threading sucks in python, let's not try and use it too much. Speaking more with regard to separating the model and view of Package Manager, we should think about making the Package Manager GUI speak with Package Manager over sockets.. imagine managing python installations for everyone on your LAN (that trusts you by SSH, or whatever). my train of thought was distracted by other emails.. I'm sure I'll be posting more to this thread later :) -bob From Jack.Jansen at cwi.nl Thu Jul 31 01:00:51 2003 From: Jack.Jansen at cwi.nl (Jack Jansen) Date: Wed Jul 30 18:01:10 2003 Subject: [Pythonmac-SIG] For your eyes only: MacPython 2.3 final In-Reply-To: <7608153C-C2D0-11D7-ACE0-000393582924@redivi.com> Message-ID: <48C2C986-C2D9-11D7-8C4A-000A27B19B96@cwi.nl> On woensdag, jul 30, 2003, at 22:57 Europe/Amsterdam, Bob Ippolito wrote: > Well, the source recipe that downloads/compiles the dependencies makes > it easier for us to create the binary package (i.e. it makes it easy > for you, who has fink installed, to create binary packages that do not > depend on fink ;) You have a point here. In PackMan 0.3 we have a very rough split in types of packages: source, binary and "other". Moreover, the "other" packages don't really work:-) If for "other" packages you would get complete control over the Python code, by means of an entry PackageClassURL that would point to a piece of code that would be used just as PimpPackage_source or PimpPackage_binary are used nowadays I think we have the machinery to do what you want. On the other hand: it smells of creeping featurism. Opinions? > I'm about to send a large email out with ideas for the future of > Package Manager as I see it. Currently I'm more interested in adding > cryptographic authenticity to Package Manager before I start > maintaining a lot of packages. Ok, please do! > OH, one thing that's important to note is that XCode *DOES NOT HAVE > PBXBUILD*, which I believe the Python 2.3 build process depends on. > Instead, it's renamed to xcodebuild!!! Donovan and I figured this out > today. If you still have pbxbuild on your machine, it's from a > previous installation and is linking to old frameworks and doing old > things (they renamed a lot of Developer Tools frameworks and stuff). Ah, it's good to know this. configure can figure this out for us, and the needed definition passed from the main Makefile to Mac/OSX/Makefile (assuming this will all stay in place for 2.4). Could you file a bug report, please? -- - Jack Jansen http://www.cwi.nl/~jack - - If I can't dance I don't want to be part of your revolution -- Emma Goldman - From cjl at physics.otago.ac.nz Thu Jul 31 11:16:23 2003 From: cjl at physics.otago.ac.nz (Chris Lee) Date: Wed Jul 30 18:17:41 2003 Subject: [Pythonmac-SIG] For your eyes only: MacPython 2.3 final In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <74842191-C2DB-11D7-A0AA-0003937807FC@physics.otago.ac.nz> Hi Jack, I have just tried out the Package manager again. It now loads up the plist file fine but can't actually download and install anything The reported error is e.g. 'PIL-1.1.4-binary:download:download command failed' Here is the verbose response + cd "/tmp"; curl --output /tmp/PIL-1.1.4.darwin-6.6-Power_Macintosh.tar.gz http://homepages.cwi.nl/~jack/pimp/PIL-1.1.4.darwin-6.6- Power_Macintosh.tar.gz curl: (5) Couldn't resolve proxy 'cjl' PIL-1.1.4-binary: download: download command failed Are my proxy setting still stuffed up? Cheers Chris On Thursday, July 31, 2003, at 02:56 AM, Jack Jansen wrote: > Folks, > I think MacPython 2.3 is finished. The installer should work, all the > PackMan > stuff should be in place and the new website is there. > > Please go to and give it a try. > Also please try to install some stuff through PackMan: I think I have > fixed > everything so report back if something misbehaves. > > I will let you all have a go at it for another day or two, so we can > iron out the > last issues, and then I'll announce it more widely. > -- > Jack Jansen, , http://www.cwi.nl/~jack > If I can't dance I don't want to be part of your revolution -- Emma > Goldman > > > _______________________________________________ > Pythonmac-SIG maillist - Pythonmac-SIG@python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pythonmac-sig > > ################################# Chris Lee Physics Department Otago University PO Box 56 Dunedin New Zealand Phone ++64 3 479 7749 Fax ++64 3 479 0964 ################################# From Chris.Barker at noaa.gov Wed Jul 30 16:21:04 2003 From: Chris.Barker at noaa.gov (Chris Barker) Date: Wed Jul 30 18:21:40 2003 Subject: [Pythonmac-SIG] Docs for Carbon.file?? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1B862CDC-C2DC-11D7-8ED4-000393A96660@noaa.gov> Hi folks, Are there any docs for the Carbon.File module (and the rest of the Carbon Package). I'm not much of a mac programmer (Python is the only language I've ever programmed on the Mac with), so all this Mac stuff is a mystery to me. In any case, I need to set the type and creator of a file just created by my program. Poking around, I found that this appears to work: import Carbon.File mac_file = Carbon.File.FSSpec(filepath) info = mac_file.FSpGetFInfo() info.Creator = "COSM" info.Type = ".SAV" mac_file.FSpSetFInfo(info) I figured this out by trying things out, I couldn't find any docs. What I have seems to work, but it also seems a whole lot clunkier that it should be. Is there an easier way? I'd love to see a: Carbon.File.SetType( filepath, type) or something like that. -Chris Christopher Barker, Ph.D. Oceanographer NOAA/OR&R/HAZMAT (206) 526-6959 voice 7600 Sand Point Way NE (206) 526-6329 fax Seattle, WA 98115 (206) 526-6317 main reception Chris.Barker@noaa.gov From Jack.Jansen at cwi.nl Thu Jul 31 01:25:59 2003 From: Jack.Jansen at cwi.nl (Jack Jansen) Date: Wed Jul 30 18:26:14 2003 Subject: [Pythonmac-SIG] PackageManager / Python 2.3.x - 2.4 ideas In-Reply-To: <0ADF90F5-C2D1-11D7-ACE0-000393582924@redivi.com> Message-ID: First a comment: initially I thought that doing a PEP on the client side of PackMan would be good enough, but now that I have had the experience of doing a database three times, with months in between, I think that the scapegoat side is important too. We also need to come up with tools or procedures that make it easier for multiple people being responsible for a single database, and also for a single person to keep information that is going to be helpful the next time the database is updated. Scapegoat-side could be integrated into distutils. One day I think this is a very good idea, the next day I think it is a very bad idea. I will ponder on this, and I would like input. On woensdag, jul 30, 2003, at 23:01 Europe/Amsterdam, Bob Ippolito wrote: > These are some ideas for future versions of Package Manager and > friends... > > Should remove shell executable dependencies because python does these > tar > unzip > zip > curl > (not sure if it uses there or not) > rm > mv Definitely. > Should leverage metadata from PyPI in some way This is scapegoat-side. If we go for a distutils-based solution we get it automatically, as distutils has support for the PyPI metadata (I think?). > Should read proxy settings from OS X rather than using environment > variables.. allow a user override, store this as a preference Not a PackMan problem, this is a urllib problem. There's a bug filed already. > Should allow user to override 'scratch area', they might not always > have space in /tmp .. store this as a preference Definitely. Especially for people doing source installs you want to keep things around. > > We should write a cross-platform "preferences" module for python that: > Uses the registry in win32 to determine a folders for global/user > plists, and then uses that :) > Uses ~/Library/Preferences/plists and /Library/Preferences/plists in > OS X > Uses somewhere/plists for global settings on unix and > ~/.dotfolder/plists in UNIX While I agree we need it I think it isn't a PackMan problem. There are numerous other packages that want this (bgen, for instance). This could be the subject of a separate PEP. > Not have separate plist files for each distutils.util.get_platform() > -- this is only semi-useful for binary OS X packages, and not useful > at all for other operating systems. This one I disagree with, and I disagree with it strongly. The central philosophy of PackMan is accountability (in other words: the scapegoat). We may need to structure things differently, with major/minor OS release in the filename and within the database entries a list of micro releases that are known to work, but we definitely need the functionality. Binary packages are the reason for PackMan's existence, source releases are a service to the developer community. They already have PyPI. > Have a cryptographically authenticated way of determining the > authenticity of 'stuff'. [...] This is serious reading, I will come back to this later. > Keep receipts for installed packages, even if we don't write an > uninstaller. Parts are already in place, but they don't get written out to disk. It turned out to be a harder problem than I thought. But I agree we need to do something about this. > Keep track of dependency versions.. for example, FooBar 2.0 might > require a minimum BarBaz of 1.0 and is tested compatible up to BarBaz > 1.5. BarBaz might release a wonderful 1.6 version that breaks some > behavior that FooBar 2.0 or whatever other packages depended on. > Upgrading to BarBaz 1.6 should warn the user that "FooBar 2.0 and > SuperAlice 1.5 are dependent on BarBaz 1.0-1.5, but are not tested to > work with BarBaz 1.6. This upgrade may require upgrades to these > dependencies". Dependency graphs are a lot of fun, but we're all good > programmers here and we can't be lazy all the time. This should all be in there already. You can depend on a package, a specific version of a package, or even a specific flavor (pil-1.1.4-source). > Package Manager should be able to install distutils-based setup.py > source distributions that a user has on his harddrive or at any > arbitrary URL (i.e. not in the plist) either by dragging the tgz/zip > to PackageManager, picking a folder with a setup.py in it, or picking > a setup.py. Definitely. And similarly for bdist_dumb distributions. And it needs a "recipy" file format, so system administrators can standardise large numbers of machines in one fell swoop. We can even automate this for them: have a tool that takes a PackMan recipe and a Python distribution, and what comes out is a .mpkg that first installs Python and then feeds the recipe to PackMan. > Package Manager should be organized categorically, like PyPI. (i.e. > they should be heavily integrated). Yes, I think we do, indeed. On the other hand I want the database to remain manageable in size, both for the user and for the maintainer. The PyPI database has already become unmanageable:-) > We should test upgrades to Package Manager :) Definitely. > All of Package Manager's functionality should really be in platform > independent "designed" modules (meaning they don't have to support > other platforms yet, just designed with that intent). It's all there. Untested, but it's there. > Package Manager should be a responsive application, either by using > nonblocking methods to speak with spawned processes. Threading sucks > in python, let's not try and use it too much. I agree with the responsive bit, not with the threading bit. I think switching to MVC should make threading a lot easier. Only the log remains a problem (but not a very big one, on unix). > Speaking more with regard to separating the model and view of Package > Manager, we should think about making the Package Manager GUI speak > with Package Manager over sockets.. imagine managing python > installations for everyone on your LAN (that trusts you by SSH, or > whatever). I'm not sure we need to go this far, see above. -- - Jack Jansen http://www.cwi.nl/~jack - - If I can't dance I don't want to be part of your revolution -- Emma Goldman - From Jack.Jansen at cwi.nl Thu Jul 31 01:29:35 2003 From: Jack.Jansen at cwi.nl (Jack Jansen) Date: Wed Jul 30 18:29:46 2003 Subject: [Pythonmac-SIG] For your eyes only: MacPython 2.3 final In-Reply-To: <74842191-C2DB-11D7-A0AA-0003937807FC@physics.otago.ac.nz> Message-ID: <4C6828D7-C2DD-11D7-8C4A-000A27B19B96@cwi.nl> On donderdag, jul 31, 2003, at 00:16 Europe/Amsterdam, Chris Lee wrote: > Hi Jack, > > I have just tried out the Package manager again. It now loads up the > plist file fine but can't actually download and install anything > The reported error is e.g. 'PIL-1.1.4-binary:download:download command > failed' > Here is the verbose response > > + cd "/tmp"; curl --output > /tmp/PIL-1.1.4.darwin-6.6-Power_Macintosh.tar.gz > http://homepages.cwi.nl/~jack/pimp/PIL-1.1.4.darwin-6.6- > Power_Macintosh.tar.gz > curl: (5) Couldn't resolve proxy 'cjl' > PIL-1.1.4-binary: download: download command failed It looks as if they are. Could you follow the instructions in the PackMan section of MacPython Help? If you already did that: could you send me your .MacOSX/Environment.plist file, maybe I can deduce what goes wrong... -- - Jack Jansen http://www.cwi.nl/~jack - - If I can't dance I don't want to be part of your revolution -- Emma Goldman - From Jack.Jansen at cwi.nl Thu Jul 31 01:32:29 2003 From: Jack.Jansen at cwi.nl (Jack Jansen) Date: Wed Jul 30 18:32:35 2003 Subject: [Pythonmac-SIG] Docs for Carbon.file?? In-Reply-To: <1B862CDC-C2DC-11D7-8ED4-000393A96660@noaa.gov> Message-ID: On donderdag, jul 31, 2003, at 00:21 Europe/Amsterdam, Chris Barker wrote: > Hi folks, > > Are there any docs for the Carbon.File module (and the rest of the > Carbon Package). > > I'm not much of a mac programmer (Python is the only language I've > ever programmed on the Mac with), so all this Mac stuff is a mystery > to me. Use the Apple documentation. If you have installed the developer tools you have it, and it's even searchable from within the IDE (although that may not be the best way to approach it:-). > In any case, I need to set the type and creator of a file just created > by my program. Poking around, I found that this appears to work: > > import Carbon.File > mac_file = Carbon.File.FSSpec(filepath) > info = mac_file.FSpGetFInfo() > info.Creator = "COSM" > info.Type = ".SAV" > mac_file.FSpSetFInfo(info) > > I figured this out by trying things out, I couldn't find any docs. > What I have seems to work, but it also seems a whole lot clunkier that > it should be. Is there an easier way? Carbon.File strictly follows the Apple API's, so the documentation and the Python code match. For this specific case there is MacOS.SetCreatorAndType(file, creator, type). This call is documented, see the Mac section of the Python documentation. -- - Jack Jansen http://www.cwi.nl/~jack - - If I can't dance I don't want to be part of your revolution -- Emma Goldman - From cjl at physics.otago.ac.nz Thu Jul 31 11:58:40 2003 From: cjl at physics.otago.ac.nz (Chris Lee) Date: Wed Jul 30 18:59:56 2003 Subject: [Pythonmac-SIG] For your eyes only: MacPython 2.3 final In-Reply-To: <4C6828D7-C2DD-11D7-8C4A-000A27B19B96@cwi.nl> Message-ID: <5C939178-C2E1-11D7-A0AA-0003937807FC@physics.otago.ac.nz> curl is ftp isn't it? Well I have a ftp proxy set up but it must use passive mode. Is there an environment setting for that? The help page isn't all that explicit in giving help here and the ADC technote it points to is designed to help people who know all about setting environment variables already. I know you all are busy but a lot of people like me will need it to work out of the box (with maybe a few well described and easy to handle tweaks) in which case something like this needs to be fixed. Cheers Chris On Thursday, July 31, 2003, at 10:29 AM, Jack Jansen wrote: > > On donderdag, jul 31, 2003, at 00:16 Europe/Amsterdam, Chris Lee wrote: > >> Hi Jack, >> >> I have just tried out the Package manager again. It now loads up the >> plist file fine but can't actually download and install anything >> The reported error is e.g. 'PIL-1.1.4-binary:download:download >> command failed' >> Here is the verbose response >> >> + cd "/tmp"; curl --output >> /tmp/PIL-1.1.4.darwin-6.6-Power_Macintosh.tar.gz >> http://homepages.cwi.nl/~jack/pimp/PIL-1.1.4.darwin-6.6- >> Power_Macintosh.tar.gz >> curl: (5) Couldn't resolve proxy 'cjl' >> PIL-1.1.4-binary: download: download command failed > > It looks as if they are. Could you follow the instructions in the > PackMan section of MacPython Help? If you already did that: could you > send me your .MacOSX/Environment.plist file, maybe I can deduce what > goes wrong... > -- > - Jack Jansen > http://www.cwi.nl/~jack - > - If I can't dance I don't want to be part of your revolution -- Emma > Goldman - > > > _______________________________________________ > Pythonmac-SIG maillist - Pythonmac-SIG@python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pythonmac-sig > > ################################# Chris Lee Physics Department Otago University PO Box 56 Dunedin New Zealand Phone ++64 3 479 7749 Fax ++64 3 479 0964 ################################# From kevino at tulane.edu Wed Jul 30 17:04:37 2003 From: kevino at tulane.edu (Kevin Ollivier) Date: Wed Jul 30 19:08:29 2003 Subject: [Pythonmac-SIG] PackageManager / Python 2.3.x - 2.4 ideas In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <310321CE-C2E2-11D7-8EAD-000393CB1C86@tulane.edu> On Wednesday, July 30, 2003, at 03:25 PM, Jack Jansen wrote: > First a comment: initially I thought that doing a PEP on the client > side of > PackMan would be good enough, but now that I have had the experience > of doing a > database three times, with months in between, I think that the > scapegoat > side is important too. We also need to come up with tools or procedures > that make it easier for multiple people being responsible for a single > database, > and also for a single person to keep information that is going to be > helpful > the next time the database is updated. IMO, what we need here is to have a package metadata file for Python packages, possibly in setup.py, or whatever. Then, using a command (i.e. setup.py update_ppm), folks could "synch" that metadata with the main Package Manager database on Python.org. I've seen a PEP on something similar to this, but more limited - I think it was a way to specify trove classification data, description, etc. in setup.py and update it with PyPI. But this would be a simple and logical extension to that functionality. > Scapegoat-side could be integrated into distutils. One day I think > this is > a very good idea, the next day I think it is a very bad idea. I will > ponder > on this, and I would like input. I personally think it is a good idea, at least today. ;-) The core idea behind PyPI and other tools like it is that each package maintainer should be expected to promote and update their own package, and I think Package Manager should be the same way. Thanks, Kevin > On woensdag, jul 30, 2003, at 23:01 Europe/Amsterdam, Bob Ippolito > wrote: > >> These are some ideas for future versions of Package Manager and >> friends... >> >> Should remove shell executable dependencies because python does these >> tar >> unzip >> zip >> curl >> (not sure if it uses there or not) >> rm >> mv > > Definitely. > >> Should leverage metadata from PyPI in some way > > This is scapegoat-side. If we go for a distutils-based solution we get > it automatically, > as distutils has support for the PyPI metadata (I think?). > >> Should read proxy settings from OS X rather than using environment >> variables.. allow a user override, store this as a preference > > Not a PackMan problem, this is a urllib problem. There's a bug filed > already. > >> Should allow user to override 'scratch area', they might not always >> have space in /tmp .. store this as a preference > > Definitely. Especially for people doing source installs you want to > keep things around. >> > >> We should write a cross-platform "preferences" module for python that: >> Uses the registry in win32 to determine a folders for global/user >> plists, and then uses that :) >> Uses ~/Library/Preferences/plists and /Library/Preferences/plists in >> OS X >> Uses somewhere/plists for global settings on unix and >> ~/.dotfolder/plists in UNIX > > While I agree we need it I think it isn't a PackMan problem. There are > numerous > other packages that want this (bgen, for instance). This could be the > subject of a > separate PEP. > >> Not have separate plist files for each distutils.util.get_platform() >> -- this is only semi-useful for binary OS X packages, and not useful >> at all for other operating systems. > > This one I disagree with, and I disagree with it strongly. The central > philosophy of PackMan > is accountability (in other words: the scapegoat). We may need to > structure things differently, with major/minor OS release in the > filename and within the database entries a list of micro releases that > are known to work, but we definitely need the functionality. > > Binary packages are the reason for PackMan's existence, source > releases are a service to the developer community. They already have > PyPI. > >> Have a cryptographically authenticated way of determining the >> authenticity of 'stuff'. [...] > > This is serious reading, I will come back to this later. > >> Keep receipts for installed packages, even if we don't write an >> uninstaller. > > Parts are already in place, but they don't get written out to disk. It > turned out to be a harder problem than I thought. But I agree we need > to do something about this. > >> Keep track of dependency versions.. for example, FooBar 2.0 might >> require a minimum BarBaz of 1.0 and is tested compatible up to BarBaz >> 1.5. BarBaz might release a wonderful 1.6 version that breaks some >> behavior that FooBar 2.0 or whatever other packages depended on. >> Upgrading to BarBaz 1.6 should warn the user that "FooBar 2.0 and >> SuperAlice 1.5 are dependent on BarBaz 1.0-1.5, but are not tested to >> work with BarBaz 1.6. This upgrade may require upgrades to these >> dependencies". Dependency graphs are a lot of fun, but we're all >> good programmers here and we can't be lazy all the time. > > This should all be in there already. You can depend on a package, a > specific version of a package, or even a specific flavor > (pil-1.1.4-source). > >> Package Manager should be able to install distutils-based setup.py >> source distributions that a user has on his harddrive or at any >> arbitrary URL (i.e. not in the plist) either by dragging the tgz/zip >> to PackageManager, picking a folder with a setup.py in it, or picking >> a setup.py. > > Definitely. And similarly for bdist_dumb distributions. And it needs a > "recipy" file format, so system administrators can standardise large > numbers of machines in one fell swoop. We can > even automate this for them: have a tool that takes a PackMan recipe > and a Python distribution, and what comes out is a .mpkg that first > installs Python and then feeds the recipe to PackMan. > >> Package Manager should be organized categorically, like PyPI. (i.e. >> they should be heavily integrated). > > Yes, I think we do, indeed. On the other hand I want the database to > remain manageable in size, both for the user and for the maintainer. > The PyPI database has already become unmanageable:-) > >> We should test upgrades to Package Manager :) > > Definitely. > >> All of Package Manager's functionality should really be in platform >> independent "designed" modules (meaning they don't have to support >> other platforms yet, just designed with that intent). > > It's all there. Untested, but it's there. > >> Package Manager should be a responsive application, either by using >> nonblocking methods to speak with spawned processes. Threading sucks >> in python, let's not try and use it too much. > > I agree with the responsive bit, not with the threading bit. I think > switching to MVC should make threading a lot easier. Only the log > remains a problem (but not a very big one, on unix). > >> Speaking more with regard to separating the model and view of Package >> Manager, we should think about making the Package Manager GUI speak >> with Package Manager over sockets.. imagine managing python >> installations for everyone on your LAN (that trusts you by SSH, or >> whatever). > > I'm not sure we need to go this far, see above. > -- > - Jack Jansen > http://www.cwi.nl/~jack - > - If I can't dance I don't want to be part of your revolution -- Emma > Goldman - > > > _______________________________________________ > Pythonmac-SIG maillist - Pythonmac-SIG@python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pythonmac-sig > From kevino at tulane.edu Wed Jul 30 17:16:21 2003 From: kevino at tulane.edu (Kevin Ollivier) Date: Wed Jul 30 19:19:14 2003 Subject: [Pythonmac-SIG] For your eyes only: MacPython 2.3 final In-Reply-To: <48C2C986-C2D9-11D7-8C4A-000A27B19B96@cwi.nl> Message-ID: On Wednesday, July 30, 2003, at 03:00 PM, Jack Jansen wrote: > > On woensdag, jul 30, 2003, at 22:57 Europe/Amsterdam, Bob Ippolito > wrote: >> Well, the source recipe that downloads/compiles the dependencies >> makes it easier for us to create the binary package (i.e. it makes it >> easy for you, who has fink installed, to create binary packages that >> do not depend on fink ;) > > You have a point here. In PackMan 0.3 we have a very rough split in > types of packages: source, binary and "other". Moreover, the "other" > packages don't really work:-) If for "other" packages you would get > complete control over the Python code, by means of an entry > PackageClassURL that would point to a piece of code that would be used > just as PimpPackage_source or PimpPackage_binary are used nowadays I > think we have the machinery to do what you want. > > On the other hand: it smells of creeping featurism. > > Opinions? I think this is a good idea. I don't think this is a case of creeping featurism because there will always be these three cases. This is about the only way I can think of for solving case #3 that avoids creeping featurism, actually. Thanks, Kevin From ryanwilcox at mac.com Wed Jul 30 21:04:43 2003 From: ryanwilcox at mac.com (Ryan Wilcox) Date: Wed Jul 30 20:04:57 2003 Subject: [Pythonmac-SIG] Installing PyObjC via PackMan In-Reply-To: <0ADF90F5-C2D1-11D7-ACE0-000393582924@redivi.com> Message-ID: -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Hi guys, First - Python 2.3 looks great! I read the release notes last night, and it looks Mighty Fine. I also wanted to take a look at PyObjC - and since it was an item in PacMan, I grabbed it. Grabbed both the library and the source 'Cept I don't know where it went. I'd like to try some of the examples... but I don't know where they are. So... where does PacMan put stuff? Thanks a bunch, _Ryan Wilcox ================================================================ Wilcox Development Solutions: http://www.wilcoxd.com Toolsmiths for the Internet Age PGP: 0x2F4E9C31 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: PGP SDK 3.0.2 iQA/AwUBPyhdCm2DtKgvTpwxEQKEQACg/xh4NAXJ1blHiSIFn2mp3ZWvQEIAnivg II+vRPZi77hzdJ6seHGCIXGt =BAyb -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From oussoren at cistron.nl Thu Jul 31 08:39:39 2003 From: oussoren at cistron.nl (Ronald Oussoren) Date: Thu Jul 31 01:39:47 2003 Subject: [Pythonmac-SIG] Installing PyObjC via PackMan In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <606F79B8-C319-11D7-84E9-0003931CFE24@cistron.nl> On Thursday, 31 July, 2003, at 02:04, Ryan Wilcox wrote: > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 > > Hi guys, > > First - Python 2.3 looks great! I read the release notes last night, > and it > looks Mighty Fine. > > I also wanted to take a look at PyObjC - and since it was an item in > PacMan, I > grabbed it. Grabbed both the library and the source > > 'Cept I don't know where it went. I'd like to try some of the > examples... but I > don't know where they are. Possibly in /tmp, they are downloaded to /tmp and I don't know if PacMan removes the downloaded files after installation. The PyObjC examples/documentation are not installed using distutils, and I assume this means they are not installed by PacMan. You could download the PyObjC installer for Python 2.2, the .DMG also contains a folder containing the Examples and Documentation. That should work just fine with Python 2.3. From Jack.Jansen at oratrix.com Thu Jul 31 11:09:08 2003 From: Jack.Jansen at oratrix.com (Jack Jansen) Date: Thu Jul 31 04:58:26 2003 Subject: [Pythonmac-SIG] For your eyes only: MacPython 2.3 final In-Reply-To: <5C939178-C2E1-11D7-A0AA-0003937807FC@physics.otago.ac.nz> Message-ID: <4278320A-C32E-11D7-9F76-003065517236@oratrix.com> On donderdag, jul 31, 2003, at 00:58 Europe/Amsterdam, Chris Lee wrote: > curl is ftp isn't it? Well I have a ftp proxy set up but it must use > passive mode. Is there an environment setting for that? > The help page isn't all that explicit in giving help here and the ADC > technote it points to is designed to help people who know all about > setting environment variables already. Curl can do many things, but for PackMan it usually uses HTTP, so you need to set your http proxy in Environment.plist. I'll add something to the homepage, but it may take a while. -- - Jack Jansen http://www.cwi.nl/~jack - - If I can't dance I don't want to be part of your revolution -- Emma Goldman - From Jack.Jansen at oratrix.com Thu Jul 31 11:53:56 2003 From: Jack.Jansen at oratrix.com (Jack Jansen) Date: Thu Jul 31 04:58:36 2003 Subject: [Pythonmac-SIG] Installing PyObjC via PackMan In-Reply-To: <606F79B8-C319-11D7-84E9-0003931CFE24@cistron.nl> Message-ID: <84C6ABFB-C334-11D7-9F76-003065517236@oratrix.com> On donderdag, jul 31, 2003, at 07:39 Europe/Amsterdam, Ronald Oussoren wrote: > The PyObjC examples/documentation are not installed using distutils, > and I assume this means they are not installed by PacMan. You could > download the PyObjC installer for Python 2.2, the .DMG also contains a > folder containing the Examples and Documentation. That should work > just fine with Python 2.3. Ah, yes, all the installers have this problem: supporting documents like examples and documentation aren't installed. I think we need to do two things about this: - for the future, think of a way this could be added to distutils. - for now, we need a way to give users who do a binary install of a package a way to get access to the examples. One way would be to create an extra installer, pyobjc_examples-1.0b2-binary, that would put the examples and any other interesting stuff you don't get with a binary install into /Applications/MacPython-2.3/Extras. Does this sound like a workable plan? -- - Jack Jansen http://www.cwi.nl/~jack - - If I can't dance I don't want to be part of your revolution -- Emma Goldman - From vmarchetti at ameritech.net Thu Jul 31 08:05:56 2003 From: vmarchetti at ameritech.net (Vincent Marchetti) Date: Thu Jul 31 07:06:09 2003 Subject: [Pythonmac-SIG] aeve module -- names conflict Message-ID: Bob, I downloaded and have been trying to use your aeve package for scripting applications through OSA events, but I have been getting a name conflict -- when your package imports aetypes, what is actually imported is the aetypes module from the Python (2.3) distribution, not your aeve.aetypes package. -- Do I need to manually disable the "official" aetypes module? Thanks Vince Marchetti From Benjamin.Schollnick at usa.xerox.com Thu Jul 31 11:21:27 2003 From: Benjamin.Schollnick at usa.xerox.com (Schollnick, Benjamin) Date: Thu Jul 31 10:21:54 2003 Subject: [Pythonmac-SIG] PackageManager / Python 2.3.x - 2.4 ideas Message-ID: <51B62EFFBC83D6118ADA00096BB030A102CC2D94@usamcms7.mc.usa.xerox.com> > Package Manager should be a responsive application, either by using > nonblocking methods to speak with spawned processes. Threading sucks > in python, let's not try and use it too much. I admit, I haven't used threading too much.... But, are any steps being taken in the Python Development circles to resolve the "Threading Sucks" issues? (Honestly, I haven't had a problem, once I understood it.... I admit the threading model is a little bit of a pain.... But it works...) - Ben From Benjamin.Schollnick at usa.xerox.com Thu Jul 31 11:30:36 2003 From: Benjamin.Schollnick at usa.xerox.com (Schollnick, Benjamin) Date: Thu Jul 31 10:31:09 2003 Subject: [Pythonmac-SIG] Installing PyObjC via PackMan Message-ID: <51B62EFFBC83D6118ADA00096BB030A102CC2D95@usamcms7.mc.usa.xerox.com> > > I also wanted to take a look at PyObjC - and since it was > an item in > > PacMan, I > > grabbed it. Grabbed both the library and the source > > > > 'Cept I don't know where it went. I'd like to try some of the > > examples... but I > > don't know where they are. > Possibly in /tmp, they are downloaded to /tmp and I don't know if > PacMan removes the downloaded files after installation. > > The PyObjC examples/documentation are not installed using distutils, > and I assume this means they are not installed by PacMan. You could > download the PyObjC installer for Python 2.2, the .DMG also > contains a > folder containing the Examples and Documentation. That should > work just > fine with Python 2.3. That's a good work around... But it does not solve the problem. Think of it as a matter of bandwidth... Before: 1) Download XX KBytes ... The Disk image installer.... 2) Run the installer... 3) Delete the .DMG Now: 1) Run PackMan 2) Install PyObjC (Download XX KBytes) 3) Realize the the examples, and Docs aren't there 4) Go the PyObjC Web Site 5) Try to find Mac 2.3 package... Fall back to 2.2 6) Download XX KBytes (x2!!) 7) Manually copy the examples and Documentation... I think the answer is to have PackMan support Documentation & Example installation.... We're now making it harder for the user / developer and causing them to download and install almost twice as much... (Well, technically not twice as much... But it sounds good) One possible work around is to add a seperate entry for the Documents and example code... i.e.: PyObjC Module 999999 KBytes PyObjC Documentation & Examples (Optional) 2222 KBytes - Benjamin From Benjamin.Schollnick at usa.xerox.com Thu Jul 31 11:34:55 2003 From: Benjamin.Schollnick at usa.xerox.com (Schollnick, Benjamin) Date: Thu Jul 31 10:35:01 2003 Subject: [Pythonmac-SIG] Installing PyObjC via PackMan Message-ID: <51B62EFFBC83D6118ADA00096BB030A102CC2D96@usamcms7.mc.usa.xerox.com> > Ah, yes, all the installers have this problem: supporting documents > like examples and documentation aren't installed. I hate to nitpick.. Automated Installation Applications / Tools, I think would be a better description... Installers makes me think of applications like the Vise installer package... Which usually takes care of both the binary apps, and examples, etc... > I think we need to do two things about this: > - for the future, think of a way this could be added to distutils. > - for now, we need a way to give users who do a binary install of a > package a way to get access to the examples. One way would be > to create > an extra installer, pyobjc_examples-1.0b2-binary, that would put the > examples and any other interesting stuff you don't get with a binary > install into /Applications/MacPython-2.3/Extras. > > Does this sound like a workable plan? Yes, similiar to my thinking... Except for another minor nitpick... I would suggest: PyObjC_Doc_And_Examples_1.0b2-binary instead... Yes, it's a longer name, but would you normally expect to see the documentation in with the Example code? - Benjamin From bob at redivi.com Thu Jul 31 12:43:16 2003 From: bob at redivi.com (Bob Ippolito) Date: Thu Jul 31 11:43:24 2003 Subject: [Pythonmac-SIG] Installing PyObjC via PackMan In-Reply-To: <84C6ABFB-C334-11D7-9F76-003065517236@oratrix.com> Message-ID: On Thursday, Jul 31, 2003, at 04:53 America/New_York, Jack Jansen wrote: > > On donderdag, jul 31, 2003, at 07:39 Europe/Amsterdam, Ronald Oussoren > wrote: >> The PyObjC examples/documentation are not installed using distutils, >> and I assume this means they are not installed by PacMan. You could >> download the PyObjC installer for Python 2.2, the .DMG also contains >> a folder containing the Examples and Documentation. That should work >> just fine with Python 2.3. > > Ah, yes, all the installers have this problem: supporting documents > like examples and documentation aren't installed. > > I think we need to do two things about this: > - for the future, think of a way this could be added to distutils. > - for now, we need a way to give users who do a binary install of a > package a way to get access to the examples. One way would be to > create an extra installer, pyobjc_examples-1.0b2-binary, that would > put the examples and any other interesting stuff you don't get with a > binary install into /Applications/MacPython-2.3/Extras. > > Does this sound like a workable plan? Also for documentation.. I was thinking last night that python could keep an indexed directory of all pydoc and html documentation for python. Many packages use HTML documentation, that ends up getting installed somewhere in site-packages.. That's probably not where it should go, but there should be a metadata way of saying 'look here for my documentation, don't bother introspecting me'. -bob From kevino at tulane.edu Thu Jul 31 10:51:37 2003 From: kevino at tulane.edu (Kevin Ollivier) Date: Thu Jul 31 12:54:44 2003 Subject: [Pythonmac-SIG] Installing PyObjC via PackMan In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <4014FC16-C377-11D7-8EAD-000393CB1C86@tulane.edu> On Thursday, July 31, 2003, at 08:43 AM, Bob Ippolito wrote: > > On Thursday, Jul 31, 2003, at 04:53 America/New_York, Jack Jansen > wrote: > >> >> On donderdag, jul 31, 2003, at 07:39 Europe/Amsterdam, Ronald >> Oussoren wrote: >>> The PyObjC examples/documentation are not installed using distutils, >>> and I assume this means they are not installed by PacMan. You could >>> download the PyObjC installer for Python 2.2, the .DMG also contains >>> a folder containing the Examples and Documentation. That should work >>> just fine with Python 2.3. >> >> Ah, yes, all the installers have this problem: supporting documents >> like examples and documentation aren't installed. >> >> I think we need to do two things about this: >> - for the future, think of a way this could be added to distutils. >> - for now, we need a way to give users who do a binary install of a >> package a way to get access to the examples. One way would be to >> create an extra installer, pyobjc_examples-1.0b2-binary, that would >> put the examples and any other interesting stuff you don't get with a >> binary install into /Applications/MacPython-2.3/Extras. >> >> Does this sound like a workable plan? > > Also for documentation.. I was thinking last night that python could > keep an indexed directory of all pydoc and html documentation for > python. Many packages use HTML documentation, that ends up getting > installed somewhere in site-packages.. That's probably not where it > should go, but there should be a metadata way of saying 'look here for > my documentation, don't bother introspecting me'. This sounds like a good plan. I think we should have a "Packages" directory under /Applications/MacPython 2.3 where examples and documentation go. Each package gets a folder, and that's where to look for everything regarding that package. Maybe even put a symlink to the actual module there? (For user installs, we could have something like $HOME/MacPython 2.3/Packages maybe?) From within PackMan, I think we could also have a simple line saying "Install Location: /App.../Mac../Packages/PyObjC/Examples" when the user clicks on examples or documentation. What do you think? Thanks, Kevin From kevino at tulane.edu Thu Jul 31 11:18:30 2003 From: kevino at tulane.edu (Kevin Ollivier) Date: Thu Jul 31 13:21:27 2003 Subject: [Pythonmac-SIG] Draft wxPackageManager Screenshot Message-ID: <01762C68-C37B-11D7-8EAD-000393CB1C86@tulane.edu> Hi folks, I got some free time to play around with a wxPython version of Package Manager and thought it's at a point where I can take a picture and get some comments on UI issues. It's not fully functional yet, but it's getting there pretty quickly. Also, let me note a couple things of which I'm already aware: - the options box needs to be moved up a bit, I'm using sizers so I need to play with this some more ;-) - I'd like there to be some way of visually conveying the status of a package. I'm leaning towards little green/yellow/red gumdrops (installed/outdated/not installed) next to the package name but I have to figure out how to put those into a list box or something similar, maybe a wxListCtrl. Or is this overkill? I think the colors help to 'flag' immediately differences between packages. In any case, I plan to add "Status/Installed" lines either above the description textbox or next to the Options box - I'm planning on adding a "Show only: Installed/Not installed/Outdated/Not installed and outdated" combobox above the package list so that people can filter and see only what they need. - As you might have guessed, I haven't found an icon for "View Homepage" yet. Without further ado, the link: http://www.theolliviers.com/PYPM.png Please let me know what you think! Thanks, Kevin From Chris.Barker at noaa.gov Thu Jul 31 11:47:07 2003 From: Chris.Barker at noaa.gov (Chris Barker) Date: Thu Jul 31 13:49:13 2003 Subject: [Pythonmac-SIG] Re: [wxPython-mac] Draft wxPackageManager Screenshot References: <01762C68-C37B-11D7-8EAD-000393CB1C86@tulane.edu> Message-ID: <3F29561B.E944C904@noaa.gov> Kevin Ollivier wrote: > it's at a point where I can take a picture and get > some comments on UI issues. It looks great. > - the options box needs to be moved up a bit, I'm using sizers so I > need to play with this some more ;-) Frankly, I think it looks just fine, but you could put a space at the bottom if you wanted. Let me know if you want any help with this. > - I'd like there to be some way of visually conveying the status of a > package. I'm leaning towards little green/yellow/red gumdrops > (installed/outdated/not installed) next to the package name but I have > to figure out how to put those into a list box or something similar, > maybe a wxListCtrl. Or is this overkill? No. Visual feedback is important, and I'm pretty sure you can put an icon in a wxListControl, at least in the first column. Note that there is talk of having the packages in some kind of hierarchical list, so a tree control may be warranted. Another option is to make the text itself a different color. > - I'm planning on adding a "Show only: Installed/Not > installed/Outdated/Not installed and outdated" combobox above the > package list so that people can filter and see only what they need. Perhaps a set of check boxes: O show installed X show outdated X show uninstalled ... That way it would be clear what you are looking at, and the user could select any combo they wanted. > Please let me know what you think! It looks great! And if this provides an incentive to make wxPython a "Battery", all the better! -Chris -- Christopher Barker, Ph.D. Oceanographer NOAA/OR&R/HAZMAT (206) 526-6959 voice 7600 Sand Point Way NE (206) 526-6329 fax Seattle, WA 98115 (206) 526-6317 main reception Chris.Barker@noaa.gov From Benjamin.Schollnick at usa.xerox.com Thu Jul 31 14:55:55 2003 From: Benjamin.Schollnick at usa.xerox.com (Schollnick, Benjamin) Date: Thu Jul 31 13:56:07 2003 Subject: [Pythonmac-SIG] Installing PyObjC via PackMan Message-ID: <51B62EFFBC83D6118ADA00096BB030A102CC2DA0@usamcms7.mc.usa.xerox.com> > This sounds like a good plan. I think we should have a "Packages" > directory under /Applications/MacPython 2.3 where examples and > documentation go. Ack.... That could be ok, but only if *EVERYTHING* for that package goes in that directory... Including Documentation, and Examples... > Each package gets a folder, and that's > where to look for everything regarding that package. Maybe even put a > symlink to the actual module there? If the module is not in that directory, why call it packages? Packages, to me as a Mac user, actually make me think of installing a program... Ala Packages & Apple Installer.... But never the less, if we are going to segregate the packages/modules into a specific directory, I don't want to find down a single *.py... It should be in the packages/modules directory... If necessary, we should Symlink to it, but only if necessary... Instead, I would suggest adding that directory to the python path... - Benjamin From altis at semi-retired.com Thu Jul 31 13:04:29 2003 From: altis at semi-retired.com (Kevin Altis) Date: Thu Jul 31 14:57:45 2003 Subject: [Pythonmac-SIG] Installing PyObjC via PackMan In-Reply-To: <4014FC16-C377-11D7-8EAD-000393CB1C86@tulane.edu> Message-ID: > From: Kevin Ollivier > > On Thursday, July 31, 2003, at 08:43 AM, Bob Ippolito wrote: > > > > > On Thursday, Jul 31, 2003, at 04:53 America/New_York, Jack Jansen > > wrote: > > > >> > >> On donderdag, jul 31, 2003, at 07:39 Europe/Amsterdam, Ronald > >> Oussoren wrote: > >>> The PyObjC examples/documentation are not installed using distutils, > >>> and I assume this means they are not installed by PacMan. You could > >>> download the PyObjC installer for Python 2.2, the .DMG also contains > >>> a folder containing the Examples and Documentation. That should work > >>> just fine with Python 2.3. > >> > >> Ah, yes, all the installers have this problem: supporting documents > >> like examples and documentation aren't installed. > >> > >> I think we need to do two things about this: > >> - for the future, think of a way this could be added to distutils. > >> - for now, we need a way to give users who do a binary install of a > >> package a way to get access to the examples. One way would be to > >> create an extra installer, pyobjc_examples-1.0b2-binary, that would > >> put the examples and any other interesting stuff you don't get with a > >> binary install into /Applications/MacPython-2.3/Extras. > >> > >> Does this sound like a workable plan? > > > > Also for documentation.. I was thinking last night that python could > > keep an indexed directory of all pydoc and html documentation for > > python. Many packages use HTML documentation, that ends up getting > > installed somewhere in site-packages.. That's probably not where it > > should go, but there should be a metadata way of saying 'look here for > > my documentation, don't bother introspecting me'. > > This sounds like a good plan. I think we should have a "Packages" > directory under /Applications/MacPython 2.3 where examples and > documentation go. Each package gets a folder, and that's where to look > for everything regarding that package. Maybe even put a symlink to the > actual module there? (For user installs, we could have something like > $HOME/MacPython 2.3/Packages maybe?) > > From within PackMan, I think we could also have a simple line saying > "Install Location: /App.../Mac../Packages/PyObjC/Examples" when the > user clicks on examples or documentation. > > What do you think? For many distributions, it is crucial to keep the samples and documentation in sync with the actual Python package (dir with __init__.py file). This issue comes up periodically with PythonCard and while I would like to have the documentation and samples in a directory other than site-packages/PythonCardPrototype it is more important that the user doesn't mix versions and get unexpected errors. We solved the problem on Windows by having Python 2.3 distutils create a Program Files group with shortcuts to the main tools, documentation and samples launcher. The Linux RPMs have something similar, though distutils does not have direct support for that and someone had to build the RPMs separately. On the Mac, I would love to be able to have distutils or some other standard mechanism for creating a PythonCard folder under the Applications/MacPython folder or other logical place. I would also be happy having an Applications/PythonCard folder as an option. Using symlinks/aliases to the actual locations in site-packages seems to make the most sense. I am still confused about the reasoning behind splitting code, docs, samples, etc. on Linux and can never remember where to look for all the pieces. Let's not repeat that mistake. I still haven't figured out how I'm going to deal with some of the tools like the codeEditor which really needs to be turned into a standalone with bundlebuilder so users can drag and drop from the Finder. Building the standalones might need to be part of the distutils process. Maybe we can cover that kind of problem in a separate thread. The problem of user-modifiable elements should be handled separately by creating files and dirs in the users home directory and is not something PackMan should have to deal with. Again, for PythonCard we started out with a .pythoncard dir but the Unix convention of using a leading dot to hide files and dirs just seemed to confuse people that couldn't find their configs in the Finder and it didn't translate well to Windows either, so the dir name was changed to "pythoncard_config" in release 0.7.1 My two cents, ka From kevino at tulane.edu Thu Jul 31 13:35:07 2003 From: kevino at tulane.edu (Kevin Ollivier) Date: Thu Jul 31 15:38:03 2003 Subject: [Pythonmac-SIG] Installing PyObjC via PackMan In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <172A60B9-C38E-11D7-8EAD-000393CB1C86@tulane.edu> On Thursday, July 31, 2003, at 12:04 PM, Kevin Altis wrote: > For many distributions, it is crucial to keep the samples and > documentation > in sync with the actual Python package (dir with __init__.py file). > This > issue comes up periodically with PythonCard and while I would like to > have > the documentation and samples in a directory other than > site-packages/PythonCardPrototype it is more important that the user > doesn't > mix versions and get unexpected errors. > > We solved the problem on Windows by having Python 2.3 distutils create > a > Program Files group with shortcuts to the main tools, documentation and > samples launcher. The Linux RPMs have something similar, though > distutils > does not have direct support for that and someone had to build the RPMs > separately. On the Mac, I would love to be able to have distutils or > some > other standard mechanism for creating a PythonCard folder under the > Applications/MacPython folder or other logical place. I would also be > happy > having an Applications/PythonCard folder as an option. > > Using symlinks/aliases to the actual locations in site-packages seems > to > make the most sense. I am still confused about the reasoning behind > splitting code, docs, samples, etc. on Linux and can never remember > where to > look for all the pieces. Let's not repeat that mistake. I think symlinks work for this too, and I certainly agree we don't want it getting messy like on Linux. ;-) > I still haven't figured out how I'm going to deal with some of the > tools > like the codeEditor which really needs to be turned into a standalone > with > bundlebuilder so users can drag and drop from the Finder. Building the > standalones might need to be part of the distutils process. Maybe we > can > cover that kind of problem in a separate thread. I have always thought that distutils should do this as well. This should probably be addressed when bundlebuilder is a bit smarter (i.e. can detect external libraries which are required by the script). > The problem of user-modifiable elements should be handled separately by > creating files and dirs in the users home directory and is not > something > PackMan should have to deal with. Again, for PythonCard we started out > with > a .pythoncard dir but the Unix convention of using a leading dot to > hide > files and dirs just seemed to confuse people that couldn't find their > configs in the Finder and it didn't translate well to Windows either, > so the > dir name was changed to "pythoncard_config" in release 0.7.1 Just a question - by user-modifiable elements are you referring only to config files? If so, have you considered using ~/Library/Preferences to store the config folder? This is where program preferences are usually stored on Mac. Thanks, Kevin From jjb5 at cornell.edu Thu Jul 31 19:27:24 2003 From: jjb5 at cornell.edu (Joel Bender) Date: Thu Jul 31 18:26:57 2003 Subject: [Pythonmac-SIG] Re: [wxPython-mac] Draft wxPackageManager Screenshot In-Reply-To: <3F29561B.E944C904@noaa.gov> References: <01762C68-C37B-11D7-8EAD-000393CB1C86@tulane.edu> <3F29561B.E944C904@noaa.gov> Message-ID: >I'm leaning towards little green/yellow/red gumdrops >(installed/outdated/not installed) next to the package name... I would ask for green : OK, yellow : outdated, red : dependency broken, gray : not installed. The idea is that if X1 was installed, then Y1 that depends on X1 was installed, then X2 was installed. Somehow there are known problems between Y1 and X2 then Y1 would be red. Perhaps there's also another indicator that Z1 cannot be installed in the current configuration (running on Jaguar and it needs Panther), gray gumdrop with a red circle and slash through it. Joel From bob at redivi.com Thu Jul 31 19:27:37 2003 From: bob at redivi.com (Bob Ippolito) Date: Thu Jul 31 18:27:45 2003 Subject: [Pythonmac-SIG] PackageManager / Python 2.3.x - 2.4 ideas In-Reply-To: <0ADF90F5-C2D1-11D7-ACE0-000393582924@redivi.com> Message-ID: <307134FA-C3A6-11D7-853A-000A95686CD8@redivi.com> On Wednesday, Jul 30, 2003, at 17:01 America/New_York, Bob Ippolito wrote: > Have a cryptographically authenticated way of determining the > authenticity of 'stuff'. My search to find a pure python way to do > this failed miserably, *everyone* is using C sourcecode for this. So > my proposal for this would be to have two options (1) execute the > openssl utility if available (2) use pyOpenSSL to do it. With CPAN > for example, if you don't have a perl module to do something, it will > use whatever shell utility it can find to do the task until you > actually install the module that CPAN is looking for. I'm doing some > research to figure out what would be a good way to actually execute > this. I'm thinking that Python becomes a central CA, and package > repository maintainers get certificates from the Python CA. Perhaps > it may also be possible to have a package repository maintainer > authorize an individual package maintainer to manage their package > (perform releases directly without bothering the package repository > maintainer), perhaps these could live in an "experimental" repository, > and then upon approval from a package repository maintainer goes into > the "official" repository. OpenSSL also guarantees that we don't > really have to worry about how secure the implementation is so long as > the application is otherwise securely designed. Allow users to trust > additional CAs, store those as a preference. > > The current infrastructure that uses PackageManager is susceptible to > all kinds of attacks (any sort of 'man in the middle' attack: dns > spoofing, server hacking, etc). Ok I looked really hard at this stuff and found out a couple things: 1) The openssl command line tool sucks 2) There's just no way to do it from pure python 3) GPG / OpenPGP is probably the most acceptable solution So until we get a python implementation of OpenPGP (I think we're about half way there with pyCrypto, which isn't pure python but is at least under the CNRI Python License), we'll just have to depend on GPG for authentication of stuff. I'll try and figure out how to implement it sometime soon. -bob From larry.bugbee at boeing.com Thu Jul 31 16:56:25 2003 From: larry.bugbee at boeing.com (Bugbee, Larry) Date: Thu Jul 31 18:57:57 2003 Subject: [Pythonmac-SIG] PackageManager / Python 2.3.x - 2.4 ideas Message-ID: <8CFC81BC2CC2A74F88BAB7180F00B779020D5FDC@xch-nw-29.nw.nos.boeing.com> Have you considered M2Crypto on top of OpenSSL? The work I've done with it works well. Larry -----Original Message----- From: Bob Ippolito [mailto:bob@redivi.com] Sent: Thursday, July 31, 2003 3:28 PM To: pythonmac-sig@python.org Subject: Re: [Pythonmac-SIG] PackageManager / Python 2.3.x - 2.4 ideas On Wednesday, Jul 30, 2003, at 17:01 America/New_York, Bob Ippolito wrote: > Have a cryptographically authenticated way of determining the > authenticity of 'stuff'. My search to find a pure python way to do > this failed miserably, *everyone* is using C sourcecode for this. So > my proposal for this would be to have two options (1) execute the > openssl utility if available (2) use pyOpenSSL to do it. With CPAN > for example, if you don't have a perl module to do something, it will > use whatever shell utility it can find to do the task until you > actually install the module that CPAN is looking for. I'm doing some > research to figure out what would be a good way to actually execute > this. I'm thinking that Python becomes a central CA, and package > repository maintainers get certificates from the Python CA. Perhaps > it may also be possible to have a package repository maintainer > authorize an individual package maintainer to manage their package > (perform releases directly without bothering the package repository > maintainer), perhaps these could live in an "experimental" repository, > and then upon approval from a package repository maintainer goes into > the "official" repository. OpenSSL also guarantees that we don't > really have to worry about how secure the implementation is so long as > the application is otherwise securely designed. Allow users to trust > additional CAs, store those as a preference. > > The current infrastructure that uses PackageManager is susceptible to > all kinds of attacks (any sort of 'man in the middle' attack: dns > spoofing, server hacking, etc). Ok I looked really hard at this stuff and found out a couple things: 1) The openssl command line tool sucks 2) There's just no way to do it from pure python 3) GPG / OpenPGP is probably the most acceptable solution So until we get a python implementation of OpenPGP (I think we're about half way there with pyCrypto, which isn't pure python but is at least under the CNRI Python License), we'll just have to depend on GPG for authentication of stuff. I'll try and figure out how to implement it sometime soon. -bob _______________________________________________ Pythonmac-SIG maillist - Pythonmac-SIG@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pythonmac-sig From bob at redivi.com Thu Jul 31 21:09:30 2003 From: bob at redivi.com (Bob Ippolito) Date: Thu Jul 31 20:09:38 2003 Subject: [Pythonmac-SIG] PackageManager / Python 2.3.x - 2.4 ideas In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <6C24EC76-C3B4-11D7-853A-000A95686CD8@redivi.com> On Thursday, Jul 31, 2003, at 19:23 America/New_York, Stuart Bishop wrote: > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 > > > On Friday, August 1, 2003, at 12:21 AM, Schollnick, Benjamin wrote: > >>> Package Manager should be a responsive application, either by using >>> nonblocking methods to speak with spawned processes. Threading sucks >>> in python, let's not try and use it too much. >> >> I admit, I haven't used threading too much.... >> >> But, are any steps being taken in the Python Development circles to >> resolve the "Threading Sucks" issues? > > 'Threading Sucks' isn't a development issue - it is an education > issue. If someone has a problem with threading, the first step > would be to better articulate their issues. It isn't going to > be fixed if people don't think it is broken. Whenever I've used > threads, I've really liked the Python implementation :-) It's a *lot* easier to predict what a single threaded application is going to do. With threads, there's a whole slew of very difficult to reproduce problems you have to think about and deal with. There's no really good reason to use threads in pure python code due to the GIL, especially now that we have generators and/or stackless. Even then, using threads in C code can be sketchy, especially if the C code makes threads that python didn't, or if you're expecting callbacks to work. It's just a huge hassle, and I've found avoiding them whenever possible is the best solution. If you can solve the problem in an async fashion with a single thread, you get the same or better performance (in python, at least, in my experience) without having to go through all sorts of "what if" scenarios in your head, since you know python is only doing one thing at any particular time without being interrupted. With all the shared objects between threads, it makes it tempting to dangerous things. -bob From skip at pobox.com Thu Jul 31 22:40:09 2003 From: skip at pobox.com (Skip Montanaro) Date: Thu Jul 31 23:31:25 2003 Subject: [Pythonmac-SIG] For your eyes only: MacPython-OS9 2.3 installer In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <16169.54025.901301.201103@montanaro.dyndns.org> Jack> For this one I would like positive feedback too, as so few people Jack> seem to be using MacPython-OS9 anymore. I will wait for at least Jack> one positive response for each of installation on OS9 and OSX Jack> before I announce this. I'm not sure how useful my feedback will be, since I've never really used MacPython in an OS9 environment. I ran the installer on my Mac OS X 10.2.6 system after running the Classic startup app. From inside an interpreter window I ran from test import regrtest regrtest.main() One test crashed (test_logging) and one failed (test_socket). I then tried each individually. I won't bore you with all the details. The failure from test_logging is typical: Python 2.3 (#155, Jul 30 2003, 23:48:32) [CW] on mac Type "copyright", "credits" or "license" for more information. >>> from test import regrtest >>> regrtest.main(["test_logging"], verbose=True) test_logging test test_logging crashed -- socket.gaierror: (4, 'getaddrinfo failed') Traceback (most recent call last): File "Macintosh HD:Users:skip:Desktop:MacPython OS9:MacPython-OS9 2.3:Lib:test:regrtest.py", line 402, in runtest indirect_test() File "Macintosh HD:Users:skip:Desktop:MacPython OS9:MacPython-OS9 2.3:Lib:test:test_logging.py", line 484, in test_main test_main_inner() File "Macintosh HD:Users:skip:Desktop:MacPython OS9:MacPython-OS9 2.3:Lib:test:test_logging.py", line 431, in test_main_inner tcpserver = LogRecordSocketReceiver() File "Macintosh HD:Users:skip:Desktop:MacPython OS9:MacPython-OS9 2.3:Lib:test:test_logging.py", line 97, in __init__ ThreadingTCPServer.__init__(self, (host, port), handler) File "Macintosh HD:Users:skip:Desktop:MacPython OS9:MacPython-OS9 2.3:Lib:SocketServer.py", line 330, in __init__ self.server_bind() File "Macintosh HD:Users:skip:Desktop:MacPython OS9:MacPython-OS9 2.3:Lib:SocketServer.py", line 341, in server_bind self.socket.bind(self.server_address) File "", line 1, in bind gaierror: (4, 'getaddrinfo failed') 1 test failed: test_logging There were 30 test failures for the socket modul. All spewed the same gaierror. Skip