From senthil at uthcode.com Wed Aug 3 02:10:28 2011 From: senthil at uthcode.com (Senthil Kumaran) Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2011 08:10:28 +0800 Subject: [python-sg] Fw: Announcing Python Tools for Visual Studio - RC2 Message-ID: <20110803001028.GC2542@mathmagic> On Tue, Aug 02, 2011 at 12:02:23AM +0000, Dino Viehland wrote: > We're pleased to announce the release of Python Tools for Visual Studio - RC 2. Python Tools for Visual Studio (PTVS) is an open-source plug-in for Visual Studio which supports programming with the Python programming language. PTVS is released under the Apache License, 2.0. This release includes the core features you'd expect from most IDEs including: > Advanced code modeling which enable intellisense, finding references, and goto definition. > Supports for common refactorings such as rename variable and extract method > Support for debugging and profiling Python applications > Integrated IPython REPL support for interactive development and interactive cluster development > Support for MPI cluster debugging including automatic deployment to the cluster > > PTVS supports working with your Python distribution of choice - whether that's the standard Python distribution, an alternate packaging of CPython such as Enthought Python Distribution or ActivePython, or a completely different Python implementation such as IronPython or PyPy. PTVS supports all versions of Python from 2.5 through 3.2 - so no matter what Python you're likely to find it supported. In addition to supporting any Python implementation PTVS contains integrated support for IronPython including drag and drop GUI support and enhanced intellisense when working with .NET APIs. > > This release includes only minor bug fixes for issues reported against RC1 and discovered via our own internal testing. This is planned to be the last release candidate before releasing 1.0 final. A complete list of issues fixed for this release is available here: http://bit.ly/PTVS-fixed-issues-RC2 > > We'd like to thank all of the users who took the time to report issues and feedback: andresmac, AphexSA, bkadamgk, cendalc, cyberchand, flyingfether, JulesJacobs, lundebro, Tiphon, and xavier_grundus. > > Thanks, > The Python Tools for Visual Studio Team > > -- > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-announce-list > > Support the Python Software Foundation: > http://www.python.org/psf/donations/ From senthil at uthcode.com Wed Aug 3 02:19:17 2011 From: senthil at uthcode.com (Senthil Kumaran) Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2011 08:19:17 +0800 Subject: [python-sg] Decide upon the list Message-ID: <20110803001917.GD2542@mathmagic> ( I write this after forwarding an email about Python tools for Visual studio to this list). Hello All, Did we decide anything on this list? In the last email I responded back to Martin that just asking 7 people and voting for closure is not a good idea. However, I am for maintaining a healthy community and would like to know if anyone in the subscribers is unhappy with this list existing? I asked python.org maintainers to create this and I am the owner. I added Martin as moderators as he was pretty active. Martin suggested Greg Goh (name correct?) to be added as Moderator too, I thought is already a low volume so once a becomes high-volume, let's add it. I am strictly against Facebook for any technical discussions. One would spoil oneself, if (s)he uses Facebook groups for technical discussions, it is perfectly good for social discussions/ meetup. I am not sure, why the discussion on having a google group came up and what was decided. So, if you anyone would care to explain, it would be helpful. We can let the two exist or close the down one. For the un-initiated, I would suggest checking http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo -- Senthil From martin.brochhaus at googlemail.com Wed Aug 3 03:10:38 2011 From: martin.brochhaus at googlemail.com (Martin) Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2011 09:10:38 +0800 Subject: [python-sg] Decide upon the list In-Reply-To: <20110803001917.GD2542@mathmagic> References: <20110803001917.GD2542@mathmagic> Message-ID: Obviously I'm still reading this list but I will post new posts to Google Groups only. We have decided that Facebook will be used like Twitter - to announce stuff and to socialize. You are absolutely right, technical discussions on Facebook don't make a lot of sense. I think we had the mailman vs. Google Groups discussion several times now. - I hate that Mailman sends my password in plain text. I know I can disable this but a) the admin interface looks so ugly that I just don't want to deal with it and b) this tells me that they save my password in plain text which is a security no go (of course I use different password for everything but this is 2011 - heck, they are even sending all our passwords over plain HTTP). - After 5 years of subscribing to Mailman lists I have never found out how to browse old posts in an intuitive and beautiful way. I mean... just look at the so called archives: http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-sg/. Using Mailman is fire and forget. - Is it even possible to participate on Mailman without getting any emails into your inbox (as in: read online only?). I think not. Google Groups has a nice web interface and can even show your posts since last visit. - There is no obvious way to search Mailman posts on Google. I know that it is possible SOMEHOW but I forgot, that says it all. With Google Groups I just search "groupname group searchtearm" and almost always get to the result. If not I can still go to the beautiful Groups page and use the search box, that will always find the result. Everyone developer in the world knows how to do this. Even if there is a similar trick to do this with mailman - a new developer interested in Python will not know about Mailman and thus will not know the trick. - Even if you are able to tell me tricks and workarounds for every argument mentioned above this would still mean that you need a Readme for using Mailman. We want to grow the Python community. An intuitive system would help greatly. Mailman is pushing users away. Everyone on this planet knows how to use Facebook and everyone on this planet knows how to use Google Groups. - The closing of your post underlines my point. The fact that you need to be initiated is an argument against Mailman. These are just my personal opinions. I really don't want to fight. Obviously I am willing and able to use any system. Having two groups indeed is the worst case and we should somehow solve this issue. One group must be closed (I don't really care, which). Should we setup a doodle and post the link on Facebook, Mailman and Google Groups and get a more representative vote on this? Cheers, Martin On Wed, Aug 3, 2011 at 8:19 AM, Senthil Kumaran wrote: > ( I write this after forwarding an email about Python tools for Visual > studio to this list). > > > Hello All, > > Did we decide anything on this list? In the last email I responded > back to Martin that just asking 7 people and voting for closure is not > a good idea. However, I am for maintaining a healthy community and > would like to know if anyone in the subscribers is unhappy with this > list existing? > > I asked python.org maintainers to create this and I am the owner. > I added Martin as moderators as he was pretty active. Martin suggested > Greg Goh (name correct?) to be added as Moderator too, I thought is > already a low volume so once a becomes high-volume, let's add it. > > I am strictly against Facebook for any technical discussions. One > would spoil oneself, if (s)he uses Facebook groups for technical > discussions, it is perfectly good for social discussions/ meetup. > > I am not sure, why the discussion on having a google group came up and > what was decided. So, if you anyone would care to explain, it would > be helpful. We can let the two exist or close the down one. > > For the un-initiated, I would suggest checking > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo > > -- > Senthil > _______________________________________________ > python-sg mailing list > python-sg at python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-sg > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From senthil at uthcode.com Wed Aug 3 03:29:25 2011 From: senthil at uthcode.com (Senthil Kumaran) Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2011 09:29:25 +0800 Subject: [python-sg] Decide upon the list In-Reply-To: References: <20110803001917.GD2542@mathmagic> Message-ID: <20110803012925.GA20826@mathmagic> Okay, I get these points. I agree with your points 2, 3 and 4. You got me wrong when I said uninitiated, I was talking in terms of community. Please remember that Python Singapore is a fledgling. It has to grow up as a group. A good way is to emulate what others have done. Because it is a Python group, is a good to emulate what other Python groups are doing. BayPiggies, Bangpypers, Python bugs, Python announce. Everything is hosted on python.org. My intention was that once you subscribe to python-sg via the same python hosted mailman, you will be willing to learn from and subscribe to the other lists which use the same interface (you could use the same username/password too). Are you part of any of bigger python mailing lists? Would you like to be? If yes, then you are going to encounter mailman again. The argument I am making for python-sg at python.org is that it is a recognized one and you can be part of wider group hosted at python.org. It is bit of a socialistic vs technical merits argument and for a longer term. It is not for a win situation and if the group does not get these values and get think it is not a good idea to continue it at python.org, I shall ask the admin to close it down. That is fine. Let's see if people involve in the discussion. I and you cannot make the decision and similarly, if there is lack of voice then, fine we can leave it. -- Senthil On Wed, Aug 03, 2011 at 09:10:38AM +0800, Martin wrote: > Obviously I'm still reading this list but I will post new posts to Google > Groups only. > We have decided that Facebook will be used like Twitter - to announce stuff and > to socialize. You are absolutely right, technical discussions on Facebook don't > make a lot of sense. > > I think we had the mailman vs. Google Groups discussion several times now. > > ? I hate that Mailman sends my password in plain text. I know I can disable > this but a) the admin interface looks so ugly that I just don't want to > deal with it and b) this tells me that they save my password in plain text > which is a security no go (of course I use different password for > everything but this is 2011 - heck, they are even sending all our passwords > over plain HTTP). > ? After 5 years of subscribing to Mailman lists I have never found out how to > browse old posts in an intuitive and beautiful way. I mean... just look at > the so called archives:?http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-sg/.?Using > Mailman is fire and forget.? > ? Is it even possible to participate on Mailman without getting any emails > into your inbox (as in: read online only?). I think not. Google Groups has > a nice web interface and can even show your posts since last visit. > ? There is no obvious way to search Mailman posts on Google. I know that it > is possible SOMEHOW but I forgot, that says it all. With Google Groups I > just search "groupname group searchtearm" and almost always get to the > result. If not I can still go to the beautiful Groups page and use the > search box, that will always find the result. Everyone developer in the > world knows how to do this. Even if there is a similar trick to do this > with mailman - a new developer interested in Python will not know about > Mailman and thus will not know the trick. > ? Even if you are able to tell me tricks and workarounds for every argument > mentioned above this would still mean that you need a Readme for using > Mailman. We want to grow the Python community. An intuitive system would > help greatly. Mailman is pushing users away. Everyone on this planet knows > how to use Facebook and everyone on this planet knows how to use Google > Groups. > ? The closing of your post underlines my point. The fact that you need to be > initiated is an argument against Mailman. > > These are just my personal opinions. I really don't want to fight. Obviously I > am willing and able to use any system.? > > Having two groups indeed is the worst case and we should somehow solve this > issue. One group must be closed (I don't really care, which). > > Should we setup a doodle and post the link on Facebook, Mailman and Google > Groups and get a more representative vote on this? > > Cheers, > Martin > > > On Wed, Aug 3, 2011 at 8:19 AM, Senthil Kumaran wrote: > > ( I write this after forwarding an email about Python tools for Visual > studio to this list). > > > Hello All, > > Did we decide anything on this list? In the last email I responded > back to Martin that just asking 7 people and voting for closure is not > a good idea. ?However, I am for maintaining a healthy community and > would like to know if anyone in the subscribers is unhappy with this > list existing? > > I asked python.org maintainers to create this and I am the owner. > I added Martin as moderators as he was pretty active. Martin suggested > Greg Goh (name correct?) to be added as Moderator too, I thought is > already a low volume so once a becomes high-volume, let's add it. > > I am strictly against Facebook for any technical discussions. One > would spoil oneself, if (s)he uses Facebook groups for technical > discussions, it is perfectly good for social discussions/ meetup. > > I am not sure, why the discussion on having a google group came up and > what was decided. ?So, if you anyone would care to explain, it would > be helpful. We can let the two exist or close the down one. > > For the un-initiated, I would suggest checking > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo > > -- > Senthil > _______________________________________________ > python-sg mailing list > python-sg at python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-sg > > > _______________________________________________ > python-sg mailing list > python-sg at python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-sg From martin.brochhaus at googlemail.com Wed Aug 3 03:33:00 2011 From: martin.brochhaus at googlemail.com (Martin) Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2011 09:33:00 +0800 Subject: [python-sg] Decide upon the list In-Reply-To: <20110803012925.GA20826@mathmagic> References: <20110803001917.GD2542@mathmagic> <20110803012925.GA20826@mathmagic> Message-ID: You have some very valid points there as well. Damnit. It's basically trading usability and openness for being part of a bigger network :( The decision is so hard. I would love to hear more voices. Best regards, Martin On Wed, Aug 3, 2011 at 9:29 AM, Senthil Kumaran wrote: > Okay, I get these points. I agree with your points 2, 3 and 4. > > You got me wrong when I said uninitiated, I was talking in terms of > community. Please remember that Python Singapore is a fledgling. It > has to grow up as a group. A good way is to emulate what others have > done. Because it is a Python group, is a good to emulate what other > Python groups are doing. BayPiggies, Bangpypers, Python bugs, Python > announce. Everything is hosted on python.org. My intention was that > once you subscribe to python-sg via the same python hosted mailman, > you will be willing to learn from and subscribe to the other lists > which use the same interface (you could use the same username/password > too). > > Are you part of any of bigger python mailing lists? Would you like to > be? If yes, then you are going to encounter mailman again. > > The argument I am making for python-sg at python.org is that it is a > recognized one and you can be part of wider group hosted at > python.org. It is bit of a socialistic vs technical merits argument > and for a longer term. > > It is not for a win situation and if the group does not get these > values and get think it is not a good idea to continue it at > python.org, I shall ask the admin to close it down. That is fine. > > Let's see if people involve in the discussion. I and you cannot make > the decision and similarly, if there is lack of voice then, fine we > can leave it. > > -- > Senthil > > On Wed, Aug 03, 2011 at 09:10:38AM +0800, Martin wrote: > > Obviously I'm still reading this list but I will post new posts to Google > > Groups only. > > We have decided that Facebook will be used like Twitter - to announce > stuff and > > to socialize. You are absolutely right, technical discussions on Facebook > don't > > make a lot of sense. > > > > I think we had the mailman vs. Google Groups discussion several times > now. > > > > ? I hate that Mailman sends my password in plain text. I know I can > disable > > this but a) the admin interface looks so ugly that I just don't want > to > > deal with it and b) this tells me that they save my password in plain > text > > which is a security no go (of course I use different password for > > everything but this is 2011 - heck, they are even sending all our > passwords > > over plain HTTP). > > ? After 5 years of subscribing to Mailman lists I have never found out > how to > > browse old posts in an intuitive and beautiful way. I mean... just > look at > > the so called archives: http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-sg/ > . Using > > Mailman is fire and forget. > > ? Is it even possible to participate on Mailman without getting any > emails > > into your inbox (as in: read online only?). I think not. Google > Groups has > > a nice web interface and can even show your posts since last visit. > > ? There is no obvious way to search Mailman posts on Google. I know > that it > > is possible SOMEHOW but I forgot, that says it all. With Google > Groups I > > just search "groupname group searchtearm" and almost always get to > the > > result. If not I can still go to the beautiful Groups page and use > the > > search box, that will always find the result. Everyone developer in > the > > world knows how to do this. Even if there is a similar trick to do > this > > with mailman - a new developer interested in Python will not know > about > > Mailman and thus will not know the trick. > > ? Even if you are able to tell me tricks and workarounds for every > argument > > mentioned above this would still mean that you need a Readme for > using > > Mailman. We want to grow the Python community. An intuitive system > would > > help greatly. Mailman is pushing users away. Everyone on this planet > knows > > how to use Facebook and everyone on this planet knows how to use > Google > > Groups. > > ? The closing of your post underlines my point. The fact that you need > to be > > initiated is an argument against Mailman. > > > > These are just my personal opinions. I really don't want to fight. > Obviously I > > am willing and able to use any system. > > > > Having two groups indeed is the worst case and we should somehow solve > this > > issue. One group must be closed (I don't really care, which). > > > > Should we setup a doodle and post the link on Facebook, Mailman and > Google > > Groups and get a more representative vote on this? > > > > Cheers, > > Martin > > > > > > On Wed, Aug 3, 2011 at 8:19 AM, Senthil Kumaran > wrote: > > > > ( I write this after forwarding an email about Python tools for > Visual > > studio to this list). > > > > > > Hello All, > > > > Did we decide anything on this list? In the last email I responded > > back to Martin that just asking 7 people and voting for closure is > not > > a good idea. However, I am for maintaining a healthy community and > > would like to know if anyone in the subscribers is unhappy with this > > list existing? > > > > I asked python.org maintainers to create this and I am the owner. > > I added Martin as moderators as he was pretty active. Martin > suggested > > Greg Goh (name correct?) to be added as Moderator too, I thought is > > already a low volume so once a becomes high-volume, let's add it. > > > > I am strictly against Facebook for any technical discussions. One > > would spoil oneself, if (s)he uses Facebook groups for technical > > discussions, it is perfectly good for social discussions/ meetup. > > > > I am not sure, why the discussion on having a google group came up > and > > what was decided. So, if you anyone would care to explain, it would > > be helpful. We can let the two exist or close the down one. > > > > For the un-initiated, I would suggest checking > > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo > > > > -- > > Senthil > > _______________________________________________ > > python-sg mailing list > > python-sg at python.org > > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-sg > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > python-sg mailing list > > python-sg at python.org > > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-sg > > _______________________________________________ > python-sg mailing list > python-sg at python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-sg > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From icyisamu at gmail.com Wed Aug 3 03:46:37 2011 From: icyisamu at gmail.com (Victor Neo) Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2011 09:46:37 +0800 Subject: [python-sg] Decide upon the list In-Reply-To: <20110803012925.GA20826@mathmagic> References: <20110803001917.GD2542@mathmagic> <20110803012925.GA20826@mathmagic> Message-ID: The voting was done during the last Python SG meetup on July 28th. Granted, not everyone chose to vote between mailman, FB and Google groups but the turn out for the meetup was much higher than the turnout for existing mailing list members. I see Google Groups as a choice between complete mailing lists and web forums. I grew up on web forums and I swear I didn't even hear of mailing list till I came of age (and I'm sure there are more people after me who doesn't). Google groups makes it easier for them to get used to the idea of mailing list before prepping them for others (if they sign up, that is). I'm sure that developers are fine with any mailing list as long as there is no spam. The web view for Google groups is awesome. Sometimes when I'm not using my computer I can pop by the site for a quick view of the threads and I can't say I can for mailman. Yeah I'm spoilt by the forums I grew up on :) I think the Facebook topic is settled, but I like the idea of having Facebook for announcements because it allows members who doesn't wish to sign up for a mailing list / twitter to have an easy way to keep track of local events. Just a quick question - how many members have signed up at the mailman site? The Google Group has about 30+ members right now and only < 6 posted anything - the majority could be just using the web interface for reading purpose. On Wed, Aug 3, 2011 at 9:29 AM, Senthil Kumaran wrote: > Okay, I get these points. I agree with your points 2, 3 and 4. > > You got me wrong when I said uninitiated, I was talking in terms of > community. Please remember that Python Singapore is a fledgling. It > has to grow up as a group. A good way is to emulate what others have > done. Because it is a Python group, is a good to emulate what other > Python groups are doing. BayPiggies, Bangpypers, Python bugs, Python > announce. Everything is hosted on python.org. My intention was that > once you subscribe to python-sg via the same python hosted mailman, > you will be willing to learn from and subscribe to the other lists > which use the same interface (you could use the same username/password > too). > > Are you part of any of bigger python mailing lists? Would you like to > be? If yes, then you are going to encounter mailman again. > > The argument I am making for python-sg at python.org is that it is a > recognized one and you can be part of wider group hosted at > python.org. It is bit of a socialistic vs technical merits argument > and for a longer term. > > It is not for a win situation and if the group does not get these > values and get think it is not a good idea to continue it at > python.org, I shall ask the admin to close it down. That is fine. > > Let's see if people involve in the discussion. I and you cannot make > the decision and similarly, if there is lack of voice then, fine we > can leave it. > > -- > Senthil > > On Wed, Aug 03, 2011 at 09:10:38AM +0800, Martin wrote: > > Obviously I'm still reading this list but I will post new posts to Google > > Groups only. > > We have decided that Facebook will be used like Twitter - to announce > stuff and > > to socialize. You are absolutely right, technical discussions on Facebook > don't > > make a lot of sense. > > > > I think we had the mailman vs. Google Groups discussion several times > now. > > > > ? I hate that Mailman sends my password in plain text. I know I can > disable > > this but a) the admin interface looks so ugly that I just don't want > to > > deal with it and b) this tells me that they save my password in plain > text > > which is a security no go (of course I use different password for > > everything but this is 2011 - heck, they are even sending all our > passwords > > over plain HTTP). > > ? After 5 years of subscribing to Mailman lists I have never found out > how to > > browse old posts in an intuitive and beautiful way. I mean... just > look at > > the so called archives: http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-sg/ > . Using > > Mailman is fire and forget. > > ? Is it even possible to participate on Mailman without getting any > emails > > into your inbox (as in: read online only?). I think not. Google > Groups has > > a nice web interface and can even show your posts since last visit. > > ? There is no obvious way to search Mailman posts on Google. I know > that it > > is possible SOMEHOW but I forgot, that says it all. With Google > Groups I > > just search "groupname group searchtearm" and almost always get to > the > > result. If not I can still go to the beautiful Groups page and use > the > > search box, that will always find the result. Everyone developer in > the > > world knows how to do this. Even if there is a similar trick to do > this > > with mailman - a new developer interested in Python will not know > about > > Mailman and thus will not know the trick. > > ? Even if you are able to tell me tricks and workarounds for every > argument > > mentioned above this would still mean that you need a Readme for > using > > Mailman. We want to grow the Python community. An intuitive system > would > > help greatly. Mailman is pushing users away. Everyone on this planet > knows > > how to use Facebook and everyone on this planet knows how to use > Google > > Groups. > > ? The closing of your post underlines my point. The fact that you need > to be > > initiated is an argument against Mailman. > > > > These are just my personal opinions. I really don't want to fight. > Obviously I > > am willing and able to use any system. > > > > Having two groups indeed is the worst case and we should somehow solve > this > > issue. One group must be closed (I don't really care, which). > > > > Should we setup a doodle and post the link on Facebook, Mailman and > Google > > Groups and get a more representative vote on this? > > > > Cheers, > > Martin > > > > > > On Wed, Aug 3, 2011 at 8:19 AM, Senthil Kumaran > wrote: > > > > ( I write this after forwarding an email about Python tools for > Visual > > studio to this list). > > > > > > Hello All, > > > > Did we decide anything on this list? In the last email I responded > > back to Martin that just asking 7 people and voting for closure is > not > > a good idea. However, I am for maintaining a healthy community and > > would like to know if anyone in the subscribers is unhappy with this > > list existing? > > > > I asked python.org maintainers to create this and I am the owner. > > I added Martin as moderators as he was pretty active. Martin > suggested > > Greg Goh (name correct?) to be added as Moderator too, I thought is > > already a low volume so once a becomes high-volume, let's add it. > > > > I am strictly against Facebook for any technical discussions. One > > would spoil oneself, if (s)he uses Facebook groups for technical > > discussions, it is perfectly good for social discussions/ meetup. > > > > I am not sure, why the discussion on having a google group came up > and > > what was decided. So, if you anyone would care to explain, it would > > be helpful. We can let the two exist or close the down one. > > > > For the un-initiated, I would suggest checking > > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo > > > > -- > > Senthil > > _______________________________________________ > > python-sg mailing list > > python-sg at python.org > > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-sg > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > python-sg mailing list > > python-sg at python.org > > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-sg > > _______________________________________________ > python-sg mailing list > python-sg at python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-sg > -- Regards, Victor Neo -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mbaehr at email.archlab.tuwien.ac.at Wed Aug 3 05:21:26 2011 From: mbaehr at email.archlab.tuwien.ac.at (Martin =?iso-8859-1?Q?B=E4hr?=) Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2011 05:21:26 +0200 Subject: [python-sg] Decide upon the list In-Reply-To: References: <20110803001917.GD2542@mathmagic> <20110803012925.GA20826@mathmagic> Message-ID: <20110803032126.GD3110@email.archlab.tuwien.ac.at> On Wed, Aug 03, 2011 at 09:33:00AM +0800, Martin wrote: > You have some very valid points there as well. > > Damnit. It's basically trading usability and openness for being part of a > bigger network :( > > The decision is so hard. I would love to hear more voices. it is possible somehow to connect a mailinglist with google groups. at a minimum the google groups list can be added as a mailman subscriber, thereby sending all post to the groups where you can search them. that solves the searching problem. (and yes, pipermail is painful to use) of course it would then also be nice if people on the groups can post and have mails sent to the list, but i don't know what is involved there if you want to avoid loops. greetings, martin. -- cooperative communication with sTeam - caudium, pike, roxen and unix services: debugging, programming, training, linux sysadmin, web development -- pike programmer working in china community.gotpike.org foresight developer (open-steam|caudium).org foresightlinux.org unix sysadmin iaeste.at realss.com Martin B?hr http://www.iaeste.at/~mbaehr/ is.schon.org From senthil at uthcode.com Wed Aug 3 07:01:58 2011 From: senthil at uthcode.com (Senthil Kumaran) Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2011 13:01:58 +0800 Subject: [python-sg] Decide upon the list In-Reply-To: References: <20110803001917.GD2542@mathmagic> <20110803012925.GA20826@mathmagic> Message-ID: Hello Victor, I hope you got my point over "Would you like to be a part of larger Python Community" where mailman is already used. Meetings are great, but most of the times we have to rely on emails only because it is easier. An active community has both meetups and good online discussions so that others not present in meeting are involved. Yes, I prefer Google Groups over web forums too. We did not start discussing about web-forums. There 33 people in the list now, I think it might same folks who are in groups. -- Senthil On Wed, Aug 3, 2011 at 9:46 AM, Victor Neo wrote: > > The voting was done during the last Python SG meetup on July 28th. Granted, > not everyone chose to vote between mailman, FB and Google groups but the > turn out for the meetup was much higher than the turnout for existing > mailing list members. > I see Google Groups as a choice between complete mailing lists and web > forums. I grew up on web forums and I swear I didn't even hear of mailing > list till I came of age (and I'm sure there are more people after me who > doesn't). Google groups makes it easier for them to get used to the idea of > mailing list before prepping them for others (if they sign up, that is). I'm > sure that developers are fine with any mailing list as long as there is no > spam. > The web view for Google groups is awesome. Sometimes when I'm not using my > computer I can pop by the site for a quick view of the threads and I can't > say I can for mailman. Yeah I'm spoilt by the forums I grew up on :) > I think the Facebook topic is settled, but I like the idea of having > Facebook for announcements because it allows members who doesn't wish to > sign up for a mailing list / twitter to have an easy way to keep track of > local events. > Just a quick question - how many members have signed up at the mailman site? > The Google Group has about 30+ members right now and only < 6 posted > anything - the majority could be just using the web interface for reading > purpose. > > > On Wed, Aug 3, 2011 at 9:29 AM, Senthil Kumaran wrote: >> >> Okay, I get these points. I agree with your points 2, 3 and 4. >> >> You got me wrong when I said uninitiated, I was talking in terms of >> community. Please remember that Python Singapore is a fledgling. It >> has to grow up as a group. ?A good way is to emulate what others have >> done. Because it is a Python group, is a good to emulate what other >> Python groups are doing. BayPiggies, Bangpypers, Python bugs, Python >> announce. Everything is hosted on python.org. My intention was that >> once you subscribe to python-sg via the same python hosted mailman, >> you will be willing to learn from and subscribe to the other lists >> which use the same interface (you could use the same username/password >> too). >> >> Are you part of any of bigger python mailing lists? Would you like to >> be? If yes, then you are going to encounter mailman again. >> >> The argument I am making for python-sg at python.org is that it is a >> recognized one and you can be part of wider group hosted at >> python.org. It is bit of a socialistic vs technical merits argument >> and for a longer term. >> >> It is not for a win situation and if the group does not get these >> values and get think it is not a good idea to continue it at >> python.org, I shall ask the admin to close it down. That is fine. >> >> Let's see if people involve in the discussion. I and you cannot make >> the decision and similarly, if there is lack of voice then, fine we >> can leave it. >> >> -- >> Senthil >> >> On Wed, Aug 03, 2011 at 09:10:38AM +0800, Martin wrote: >> > Obviously I'm still reading this list but I will post new posts to >> > Google >> > Groups only. >> > We have decided that Facebook will be used like Twitter - to announce >> > stuff and >> > to socialize. You are absolutely right, technical discussions on >> > Facebook don't >> > make a lot of sense. >> > >> > I think we had the mailman vs. Google Groups discussion several times >> > now. >> > >> > ? ? I hate that Mailman sends my password in plain text. I know I can >> > disable >> > ? ? this but a) the admin interface looks so ugly that I just don't want >> > to >> > ? ? deal with it and b) this tells me that they save my password in >> > plain text >> > ? ? which is a security no go (of course I use different password for >> > ? ? everything but this is 2011 - heck, they are even sending all our >> > passwords >> > ? ? over plain HTTP). >> > ? ? After 5 years of subscribing to Mailman lists I have never found out >> > how to >> > ? ? browse old posts in an intuitive and beautiful way. I mean... just >> > look at >> > ? ? the so called >> > archives:?http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-sg/.?Using >> > ? ? Mailman is fire and forget. >> > ? ? Is it even possible to participate on Mailman without getting any >> > emails >> > ? ? into your inbox (as in: read online only?). I think not. Google >> > Groups has >> > ? ? a nice web interface and can even show your posts since last visit. >> > ? ? There is no obvious way to search Mailman posts on Google. I know >> > that it >> > ? ? is possible SOMEHOW but I forgot, that says it all. With Google >> > Groups I >> > ? ? just search "groupname group searchtearm" and almost always get to >> > the >> > ? ? result. If not I can still go to the beautiful Groups page and use >> > the >> > ? ? search box, that will always find the result. Everyone developer in >> > the >> > ? ? world knows how to do this. Even if there is a similar trick to do >> > this >> > ? ? with mailman - a new developer interested in Python will not know >> > about >> > ? ? Mailman and thus will not know the trick. >> > ? ? Even if you are able to tell me tricks and workarounds for every >> > argument >> > ? ? mentioned above this would still mean that you need a Readme for >> > using >> > ? ? Mailman. We want to grow the Python community. An intuitive system >> > would >> > ? ? help greatly. Mailman is pushing users away. Everyone on this planet >> > knows >> > ? ? how to use Facebook and everyone on this planet knows how to use >> > Google >> > ? ? Groups. >> > ? ? The closing of your post underlines my point. The fact that you need >> > to be >> > ? ? initiated is an argument against Mailman. >> > >> > These are just my personal opinions. I really don't want to fight. >> > Obviously I >> > am willing and able to use any system. >> > >> > Having two groups indeed is the worst case and we should somehow solve >> > this >> > issue. One group must be closed (I don't really care, which). >> > >> > Should we setup a doodle and post the link on Facebook, Mailman and >> > Google >> > Groups and get a more representative vote on this? >> > >> > Cheers, >> > Martin >> > >> > >> > On Wed, Aug 3, 2011 at 8:19 AM, Senthil Kumaran >> > wrote: >> > >> > ? ? ( I write this after forwarding an email about Python tools for >> > Visual >> > ? ? studio to this list). >> > >> > >> > ? ? Hello All, >> > >> > ? ? Did we decide anything on this list? In the last email I responded >> > ? ? back to Martin that just asking 7 people and voting for closure is >> > not >> > ? ? a good idea. ?However, I am for maintaining a healthy community and >> > ? ? would like to know if anyone in the subscribers is unhappy with this >> > ? ? list existing? >> > >> > ? ? I asked python.org maintainers to create this and I am the owner. >> > ? ? I added Martin as moderators as he was pretty active. Martin >> > suggested >> > ? ? Greg Goh (name correct?) to be added as Moderator too, I thought is >> > ? ? already a low volume so once a becomes high-volume, let's add it. >> > >> > ? ? I am strictly against Facebook for any technical discussions. One >> > ? ? would spoil oneself, if (s)he uses Facebook groups for technical >> > ? ? discussions, it is perfectly good for social discussions/ meetup. >> > >> > ? ? I am not sure, why the discussion on having a google group came up >> > and >> > ? ? what was decided. ?So, if you anyone would care to explain, it would >> > ? ? be helpful. We can let the two exist or close the down one. >> > >> > ? ? For the un-initiated, I would suggest checking >> > ? ? http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo >> > >> > ? ? -- >> > ? ? Senthil >> > ? ? _______________________________________________ >> > ? ? python-sg mailing list >> > ? ? python-sg at python.org >> > ? ? http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-sg >> > >> > >> >> > _______________________________________________ >> > python-sg mailing list >> > python-sg at python.org >> > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-sg >> >> _______________________________________________ >> python-sg mailing list >> python-sg at python.org >> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-sg > > > > -- > Regards, > Victor Neo > > _______________________________________________ > python-sg mailing list > python-sg at python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-sg > > From senthil at uthcode.com Wed Aug 3 07:03:49 2011 From: senthil at uthcode.com (Senthil Kumaran) Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2011 13:03:49 +0800 Subject: [python-sg] Decide upon the list In-Reply-To: <20110803032126.GD3110@email.archlab.tuwien.ac.at> References: <20110803001917.GD2542@mathmagic> <20110803012925.GA20826@mathmagic> <20110803032126.GD3110@email.archlab.tuwien.ac.at> Message-ID: On Wed, Aug 3, 2011 at 11:21 AM, Martin B?hr wrote: > it is possible somehow to connect a mailinglist with google groups. That's an overkill. Here is how I do it. - I subscribe to emails via gmail and I search my mails. - Google it ( I use the terms python-sg Search is not a major problem in my opinion. You can have a custom google search set in your Website (python singapore which is being planned) which can search the archives pretty well. -- Senthil From senthil at uthcode.com Wed Aug 3 07:13:13 2011 From: senthil at uthcode.com (Senthil Kumaran) Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2011 13:13:13 +0800 Subject: [python-sg] Decide upon the list In-Reply-To: References: <20110803001917.GD2542@mathmagic> <20110803012925.GA20826@mathmagic> Message-ID: On Wed, Aug 3, 2011 at 9:33 AM, Martin wrote: > Damnit. It's basically trading usability and openness for being part of a > bigger network :( > The decision is so hard. I would love to hear more voices. Google Groups scores over usability if used as web app. Also, whatever we decide upon, there 'should be some effort' in keep moving like discuss./share etc. So its better to hear out voices. -- Senthil