From fbe2 at comcast.net Sun Feb 1 08:55:28 2009 From: fbe2 at comcast.net (Beverley Eyre) Date: Sat, 31 Jan 2009 23:55:28 -0800 Subject: [Python-mode] replacing python.el In-Reply-To: References: <4980316B.7080503@online.de> Message-ID: <49855570.3080901@comcast.net> On 01/31/2009 10:31 PM, Richard M Stallman wrote: > Since Andreas R?hler is unwilling to sign legal papers for his > code in python.el, we cannot use it in Emacs. > > Would anyone like to implement for python-mode.el whatever > nice features python.el may have? Barry, could you make a TODO list? > > > I didn't know any of Andreas' code was in Python.el. Was that some of the stuff that Dave.....ah... took from python-mode.el? Bev From fbe2 at comcast.net Sun Feb 1 08:58:59 2009 From: fbe2 at comcast.net (Beverley Eyre) Date: Sat, 31 Jan 2009 23:58:59 -0800 Subject: [Python-mode] replacing python.el In-Reply-To: References: <4980316B.7080503@online.de> Message-ID: <49855643.4070803@comcast.net> On 01/31/2009 11:00 PM, Glenn Morris wrote: > Richard M Stallman wrote: > > >> Since Andreas R?hler is unwilling to sign legal papers for his >> code in python.el, we cannot use it in Emacs. >> >> Would anyone like to implement for python-mode.el whatever >> nice features python.el may have? Barry, could you make a TODO list? >> > > You've got this backwards. > > Emacs includes python.el, written by Dave Love, about which there is > no legal problem. > > python-mode.el is the alternative, which has several contributors > including Andreas R. This has never been included in Emacs. > > There is no legal problem affecting python.el distributed with GNU > Emacs. > > Glenn, Don't forget that there was a peck of code that Dave Love took from python-mode.el in his python.el. Although he acknowledged it in the comments he used inline, if some of it was from Andreas, maybe rms is correct and python.el will have to be sidelined. Bev -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From andreas.roehler at online.de Sun Feb 1 10:27:32 2009 From: andreas.roehler at online.de (Andreas Roehler) Date: Sun, 01 Feb 2009 10:27:32 +0100 Subject: [Python-mode] replacing python.el In-Reply-To: <49855570.3080901@comcast.net> References: <4980316B.7080503@online.de> <49855570.3080901@comcast.net> Message-ID: <49856B04.2000009@online.de> Beverley Eyre wrote: > On 01/31/2009 10:31 PM, Richard M Stallman wrote: >> Since Andreas R?hler is unwilling to sign legal papers for his >> code in python.el, we cannot use it in Emacs. >> >> Would anyone like to implement for python-mode.el whatever >> nice features python.el may have? Barry, could you make a TODO list? >> >> >> > I didn't know any of Andreas' code was in Python.el. There is not until now. Barry didn't merge my stuff. BTW experience tells: that position concerning assignment might be wrong. For the moment, I'm thinking as I do and can't change that. Also FSF's assignment policy may change still. In this case I'm certainly not going to blame them making errors in the past. As said, I feel somehow fooled as copyright owner by present legal system. If legal system is fooling people, betraying them rather than defend their rights, might reason not go through, finding a solution? I mean, it can. So lets look for the practical, exchanging experiences with features for example. Sincerely Andreas R?hler -- http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~a-roehler/python-mode/python-mode.el/files https://code.launchpad.net/s-x-emacs-werkstatt/ Was that some of > the stuff that Dave.....ah... took from python-mode.el? > > Bev > _______________________________________________ > Python-mode mailing list > Python-mode at python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-mode > From barry at python.org Sun Feb 1 13:33:15 2009 From: barry at python.org (Barry Warsaw) Date: Sun, 1 Feb 2009 07:33:15 -0500 Subject: [Python-mode] replacing python.el In-Reply-To: References: <4980316B.7080503@online.de> Message-ID: <6000FD22-0346-46C8-9696-15F54410B64B@python.org> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Feb 1, 2009, at 2:00 AM, Glenn Morris wrote: >> Since Andreas R?hler is unwilling to sign legal papers for his >> code in python.el, we cannot use it in Emacs. >> >> Would anyone like to implement for python-mode.el whatever >> nice features python.el may have? Barry, could you make a TODO list? > > You've got this backwards. > > Emacs includes python.el, written by Dave Love, about which there is > no legal problem. > > python-mode.el is the alternative, which has several contributors > including Andreas R. This has never been included in Emacs. > > There is no legal problem affecting python.el distributed with GNU > Emacs. As Andreas pointed out, we have not yet merged his changes into python- mode.el. I had hoped that it would be possible to merge python-mode.el and python.el and reduce the confusion and inconvenience of Python X/Emacs users. Andreas's opinion is that that is technically impossible and I believe it is Dave's opinion that it will be practically impossible from a legal perspective. If that's the case, then so be it; we will continue to develop and maintain python-mode.el as an alternative and XEmacs will likely include our version in its distribution. Emacs users will have to find it if they are looking for an alternative, but once they do, it should work just fine for them. python-mode.el is now GPLv3. I don't know what more we can do and it seems like python-mode.el will never be included in Emacs. Oh well. Under those circumstances, I see no reason not to allow Andreas to merge his changes into python- mode.el even without his copyright assignments. If I'm wrong in any of the above, please correct me. Barry -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (Darwin) iQCVAwUBSYWWi3EjvBPtnXfVAQKkuQP/VHorZluGw6k1NSZ6cOCLB3AuZGuMiooy o3j+1MpuP1vL5GFc5eVrv92vOLesaDnj+odV5ZTrPWujxu8vVSR6RZREp9hPVT8e CptPo/SsBZwKW8e3vkQNQ5n/p75Yvqw5AZdbwVH6WF6rVRTq3rqDd8/Mn56JDvvU zKgXgwKVnKY= =AO9T -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From jtk at yahoo.com Sun Feb 1 16:42:57 2009 From: jtk at yahoo.com (Jeff Kowalczyk) Date: Sun, 01 Feb 2009 10:42:57 -0500 Subject: [Python-mode] replacing python.el References: <4980316B.7080503@online.de> <6000FD22-0346-46C8-9696-15F54410B64B@python.org> Message-ID: On Sun, 01 Feb 2009 07:33:15 -0500, Barry Warsaw wrote: > As Andreas pointed out, we have not yet merged his changes into python- > mode.el. > > I had hoped that it would be possible to merge python-mode.el and > python.el and reduce the confusion and inconvenience of Python X/Emacs > users. Andreas's opinion is that that is technically impossible and I > believe it is Dave's opinion that it will be practically impossible > from a legal perspective. If Andreas' changes were to remain unmerged, would the merger of python-mode.el and python.el still be regarded as technically and/or legally impossible? Jeff From fx at gnu.org Sun Feb 1 19:26:00 2009 From: fx at gnu.org (Dave Love) Date: Sun, 01 Feb 2009 18:26:00 +0000 Subject: [Python-mode] merging python-mode.el and python.el In-Reply-To: (Barry Warsaw's message of "Wed, 28 Jan 2009 03:59:10 +0000") References: <87fxjgqp4g.fsf@liv.ac.uk> <4973D6C1.50500@comcast.net> <87k58gqleq.fsf@liv.ac.uk> Message-ID: <87d4e26mkn.fsf@liv.ac.uk> Barry Warsaw writes: > python-mode.el works fine in Emacs Maybe now -- I haven't checked closely -- but it didn't when I tried to fix it, and people are now trying to incorporate Emacs-specific features. I found the issues actually using it originally, and others did according to Debian bug reports. > I also think that python-mode.el feels more natural to Python > programmers, but I have only anecdotal evidence for that. Doubtless, but Emacs isn't just for Python programmers, and surely modes should be consistent. I rely (modulo a few historical things which should be fixed) on the same conventions if I'm hacking Python as, say, Fortran, sh, or Lisp. In fact, part of the idea of the new mode was to figure out what more to abstract over similar modes. If people don't like the conventions or want things which break other code, they can customize and distribute the customizations, of course. (Custom theme support may help.) I'd hope they'd try to understand the general conventions, though, and not cause confusion over them. > Ultimately, it does a disservice to Python programmers, Emacs users > and XEmacs users to have multiple versions of this major mode. I'm not sure about that, but it's hardly the only thing that's different from XEmacs... > Let's agree that everyone involved have the right intention to improve > the situation, I don't doubt your intentions -- sorry if it seems otherwise. It's a different matter for someone else if they don't respect the FSF's copyright, for instance, and that's presumably mutual. > I still propose we GPLv3 python-mode.el. Thus if we cannot merge, we > will simply continue to develop python-mode.el separately, educate > users as to the differences, and let them decide which they prefer. > With a GPLv3 python-mode.el we can all borrow from each other. Fine. That solves the basic problem of copying code from Emacs in accordance with the licence -- e.g. with appropriate copyright notices -- but I'm sure you'll keep an eye on that. Happy hacking. From fx at gnu.org Sun Feb 1 19:31:57 2009 From: fx at gnu.org (Dave Love) Date: Sun, 01 Feb 2009 18:31:57 +0000 Subject: [Python-mode] FSF assignment policy In-Reply-To: <4980316B.7080503@online.de> (Andreas Roehler's message of "Wed, 28 Jan 2009 10:20:27 +0000") References: <497ECF0A.4010005@online.de> <684BEBBE-9FB8-4E53-81D7-3C5881B68E31@python.org> <4980316B.7080503@online.de> Message-ID: <87bptm6maq.fsf@liv.ac.uk> Andreas Roehler writes: > Barry Warsaw wrote: >> For this audience, I'll restate my position, vis-?-vis python-mode. >> >> I assert that Tim Peters and myself have assigned copyright in >> python-mode.el to the FSF. For this audience, again: Unfortunately the FSF only has an assignment from Tim Peters, and when I tried to get one from Barry some years go, the problem was that it needed papers from his employer. (Several of us had tried to get full paperwork for python-mode.el, maybe including rms. The authorship of all the code wasn't clear at that stage, so it may not have been profitable anyway. I've no doubt that Barry wants to DTRT in this respect, and I wouldn't have spent the effort on separate code if it looked as if we had a reasonable chance of complete paperwork. If the employer isn't now a problem, maybe an assignment for future contributions would be useful.) >> I want it to be possible from a legal standpoint to merge python-mode.el >> and python.el, taking the best and most popular features and >> functionality from each. I think python-mode.el should form the basis >> of the merge, with code pulled in from python.el as needed. Current maintainers may disagree, but I don't think popularity with Python programmers trumps the Emacs coding conventions. Still, the only missing things I've heard of either violate the conventions or aren't specific to Python and should be elsewhere, or already are. > Difference is not at the level of feature-function, but > from the very beginning. It's a little bit the same as > with GNU and XEmacs: you can't merge with reasonable > cost and result now. Yes, this follows what's mostly happened with XEmacs historically. It's not a question of merging now, though -- this was all long ago. > From this some chances too: Not every feature once > implemented turns out useful. Not every feature is > needed by everyone. After working with and on python-mode.el, I did take the opportunity to try to write something clean without undue mis-features. > I would welcome a friendly, sportive concurrence. So if > Dave may tell, what's the point of python.el is in > contrast to python-mode.el, I'm interested to read. We wanted decent Python support for and in Emacs. There's commentary in the file, although it may not be complete. -- We want to cooperate, but we are not doormats. -- rms From lists at onerussian.com Sun Feb 1 20:36:00 2009 From: lists at onerussian.com (Yaroslav Halchenko) Date: Sun, 1 Feb 2009 14:36:00 -0500 Subject: [Python-mode] python-mode for Debian GNU/Linux distribution Message-ID: <20090201193600.GN28667@washoe.rutgers.edu> Hi to All, I am new to the list, so few words about me... I am just one in the army of Debian developers and maintainers, I also look at human brains on a daily basis, and I have 2 kids and a wife ;) and as you could guess -- I am developing in Python and live in emacs. I decided to take over python-mode package in Debian, which was previously maintained by Matthias Klose. Since the open bug-count and outdatedness of the package in Debian grew to the level of my personal threshold, I decided to sacrifice some time and reincarnate the package with your fresh release. I hope you would not mind few questions I have, and if you are interested in the refreshed Debian package -- read on below Questions --------- I see that people are actively engaged in the discussion of the future of python.el and python-mode.el, but I hope someone would be able to clarify just few questions to me which I've not got cleared-out 1. what entity or a person is currently a copyright holder for python-mode? python-mode.el lists: ,-- | ;; Copyright (C) 1992,1993,1994 Tim Peters | | ;; Author: 2003-2009 https://launchpad.net/python-mode | ;; 1995-2002 Barry A. Warsaw | ;; 1992-1994 Tim Peters `--- so, there is no copyright statements since 1994... I see that multiple people contributed: $> git shortlog -n -s python-mode.el 247 bwarsaw 32 montanaro 9 Barry Warsaw 9 klm so there are at least 3 persons (after Tim) who contributed, are they all copyright holders, or it was transfered to Barry? I know that you are discussing about transferring copyright to FSF, but I wonder what is the current list of the copyright holders in the main trunk? 2. I guess respective authors are copyright holders of pycomplete* and doctest* files (and license is BSD), right? Debian packaging ---------------- If you are interested in the packaging I've done: I have prepared first tentative version of the package, which based on * previous packaging done by Matthias * current release which is present in your bzr trunk branch. Unfortunately I have no clue in bzr, and I am a git user, hence I cloned your bzr repository using git-bzr, and hope that it will work in the future for incremental updates ;-) You can see my repository of the tentative package at http://git.onerussian.com/?p=deb/python-mode.git;a=summary (or if you like to clone it, use git clone http://git.onerussian.com/vcs/deb/python-mode.git) 'master' branch (as well as bzr/upstream) should correspond to your development branch, branch 'upstream' is just a 'filtered' version of master, which I based actually on the tarballs which were present in debian versions of the package. So it is what you have in trunk but without website (I guess there is no reason to distribute it atm for Debian users. And branch debian is actual debian packaging on top of 'upstream' branch. Tentative package is available from http://itanix.rutgers.edu/rumba/dists/sid/perspect/binary-all/python/python-mode_5.1.0-1~pre1_all.deb As soon as 'copyright' is clarified I will upload package into Debian sid (unstable), which should close at least 7 bug reports opened in bugs.debian.org. any comments and wishes are welcome -- .-. =------------------------------ /v\ ----------------------------= Keep in touch // \\ (yoh@|www.)onerussian.com Yaroslav Halchenko /( )\ ICQ#: 60653192 Linux User ^^-^^ [175555] From andreas.roehler at online.de Sun Feb 1 21:39:03 2009 From: andreas.roehler at online.de (Andreas Roehler) Date: Sun, 01 Feb 2009 21:39:03 +0100 Subject: [Python-mode] FSF assignment policy In-Reply-To: <87bptm6maq.fsf@liv.ac.uk> References: <497ECF0A.4010005@online.de> <684BEBBE-9FB8-4E53-81D7-3C5881B68E31@python.org> <4980316B.7080503@online.de> <87bptm6maq.fsf@liv.ac.uk> Message-ID: <49860867.40507@online.de> Dave Love wrote: > Andreas Roehler writes: > >> Barry Warsaw wrote: > >>> For this audience, I'll restate my position, vis-?-vis python-mode. >>> >>> I assert that Tim Peters and myself have assigned copyright in >>> python-mode.el to the FSF. > > For this audience, again: Unfortunately the FSF only has an assignment > from Tim Peters, and when I tried to get one from Barry some years go, > the problem was that it needed papers from his employer. (Several of us > had tried to get full paperwork for python-mode.el, maybe including rms. > The authorship of all the code wasn't clear at that stage, so it may not > have been profitable anyway. I've no doubt that Barry wants to DTRT in > this respect, and I wouldn't have spent the effort on separate code if > it looked as if we had a reasonable chance of complete paperwork. IMO assignment policy contradicts the spirit of free software. It shows very unpleasant damages in mind already. Copyright is an important issue now, taken very seriously. Before code was exchanged freely, as Richard told nicely the very beginnings of the movement. Meanwhile we came to the opposite: jealously and meticulous line counting habits. Assignment stifles cooperation rather then being helpful. If > the employer isn't now a problem, maybe an assignment for future > contributions would be useful.) > >>> I want it to be possible from a legal standpoint to merge python-mode.el >>> and python.el, taking the best and most popular features and >>> functionality from each. I think python-mode.el should form the basis >>> of the merge, with code pulled in from python.el as needed. > > Current maintainers may disagree, but I don't think popularity with > Python programmers trumps the Emacs coding conventions. Still, the only > missing things I've heard of either violate the conventions or aren't > specific to Python and should be elsewhere, or already are. > >> Difference is not at the level of feature-function, but >> from the very beginning. It's a little bit the same as >> with GNU and XEmacs: you can't merge with reasonable >> cost and result now. > > Yes, this follows what's mostly happened with XEmacs historically. It's > not a question of merging now, though -- this was all long ago. > >> From this some chances too: Not every feature once >> implemented turns out useful. Not every feature is >> needed by everyone. > > After working with and on python-mode.el, I did take the opportunity to > try to write something clean without undue mis-features. That was a general remark, in no way aimed at your code. Let me take the opportunity to assert you: I'm well respecting the work. My offer was and is: let's cooperate. There are enough things to do beside pure code-writing. Nor should the assignment nor the GPL-versions-question block cooperation completely. We must respect hindrances as it exists, that's right. > >> I would welcome a friendly, sportive concurrence. So if >> Dave may tell, what's the point of python.el is in >> contrast to python-mode.el, I'm interested to read. > > We wanted decent Python support for and in Emacs. There's commentary in > the file, although it may not be complete. > From fx at gnu.org Sun Feb 1 21:51:34 2009 From: fx at gnu.org (Dave Love) Date: Sun, 01 Feb 2009 20:51:34 +0000 Subject: [Python-mode] replacing python.el In-Reply-To: (Glenn Morris's message of "Sun, 1 Feb 2009 07:00:46 +0000") References: <4980316B.7080503@online.de> Message-ID: <87wsc96fu1.fsf@liv.ac.uk> I seem to be repeating this to ever-expanding lists of addresses. Glenn Morris writes: > You've got this backwards. > > Emacs includes python.el, written by Dave Love, about which there is > no legal problem. Indeed, and I don't understand what other problem there is with it, other than maintenance. Why does it need to be replaced with python-mode.el, even if that was properly assigned? The only other worthwhile feature I know of sort-of from python-mode.el is related to something called pdbtrack (?). My commentary explains that part of the functionality already exists, and something more general than the rest should be a general feature in GUD. (The Python-specifics are already there.) It's not difficult to restructure GUD -- or wasn't when I hacked it originally -- and it's not clean to make an add-on, which is why it's not in python.el. I know there isn't interest in abstractions like that, but I didn't want to preempt a possible change of opinion. > python-mode.el is the alternative, which has several contributors > including Andreas R. This has never been included in Emacs. Right. We'd have included (a significantly modified version of) it if we'd been able to get the paperwork. As far as I know, I was the last person to try to sort that out after previous attempts. The GNU copyright.list shows I failed in Barry's case (through no fault of his -- it needed paperwork from his employer, and I'm sure he wanted to DTRT). I think at least gerd and monnier worked on it previously, and there's an assignment on file from the original author, which I don't remember anything about. We never addressed possible significant contributions from others as far as I know, and this was over five years ago. [Skip Montanaro says his multiple attempts to assign copyright failed due to the FSF office. I don't know who asked for the papers, and I advised telling rms about the problem, though I think the assignment would only be useful for future contributions.] From fx at gnu.org Sun Feb 1 21:56:42 2009 From: fx at gnu.org (Dave Love) Date: Sun, 01 Feb 2009 20:56:42 +0000 Subject: [Python-mode] replacing python.el In-Reply-To: <49855643.4070803@comcast.net> (Beverley Eyre's message of "Sun, 1 Feb 2009 07:58:59 +0000") References: <4980316B.7080503@online.de> <49855643.4070803@comcast.net> Message-ID: <87vdrt6flh.fsf@liv.ac.uk> Beverley Eyre writes: > Don't forget that there was a peck of code that Dave Love took from > python-mode.el in his python.el. That's not true, as I've already responded to Eyre with some subset of these Ccs. As well as this claim of wholesale copying, and thus me lying about the copyright status of the code, there was the implication that I was violating other's copyright, and that people should ignore the licence on free software (bizarrely on the basis of what rms supposedly wrote). I advised legal advice on copyright, and should probably have mentioned libel. [For the benefit of emacs-devel, this all originated when I complained about someone distributing a chunk of my code with the FSF copyright notice stripped as a patch for python-mode.el, which was under a simple permissive licence. I also saw a call for volunteers to merge the two modes, and pointed out the GPL'd code couldn't be used under the permissive licence -- there was no mention of changing it -- and that code couldn't be used in Emacs without a proper assignment.] Obviously if the FSF's legal advice on what's significant for copyright purposes has changed, if I misinterpreted it, or made a mistake, I'd re-write stuff appropriately. However, I don't think it's worth worrying about it on the basis of someone who's so far quoted some duplicated keybindings, and a Fixme comment that was clearly mine, as evidence of all this copied code. If Emacs developers are worried, please contact me more privately. From rms at gnu.org Sun Feb 1 23:48:54 2009 From: rms at gnu.org (Richard M Stallman) Date: Sun, 01 Feb 2009 17:48:54 -0500 Subject: [Python-mode] replacing python.el In-Reply-To: (message from Glenn Morris on Sun, 01 Feb 2009 02:00:46 -0500) References: Message-ID: You've got this backwards. Emacs includes python.el, written by Dave Love, about which there is no legal problem. python-mode.el is the alternative, which has several contributors including Andreas R. This has never been included in Emacs. Please forgive my confusion. I did not remember any of this, so I tried to figure out the situation from the message I was reading. Since neither program includes Andreas' code, it seems there is no legal obstacle to using some or all of python-mode.el in Emacs, except whether Barry can get a disclaimer from the employers he has worked for while writing the code. If it is useful, we could ask a lawyer whether we can get by without some or all of those disclaimers. The lawyer would need to get more detailed information from Barry about various things. It's up to the Emacs maintainers to decide what to do about this. If they think this legal advice is useful, they should ask me to get it. From rgm at gnu.org Sun Feb 1 08:00:46 2009 From: rgm at gnu.org (Glenn Morris) Date: Sun, 01 Feb 2009 02:00:46 -0500 Subject: [Python-mode] replacing python.el In-Reply-To: (Richard M. Stallman's message of "Sun, 01 Feb 2009 01:31:27 -0500") References: <4980316B.7080503@online.de> Message-ID: Richard M Stallman wrote: > Since Andreas R?hler is unwilling to sign legal papers for his > code in python.el, we cannot use it in Emacs. > > Would anyone like to implement for python-mode.el whatever > nice features python.el may have? Barry, could you make a TODO list? You've got this backwards. Emacs includes python.el, written by Dave Love, about which there is no legal problem. python-mode.el is the alternative, which has several contributors including Andreas R. This has never been included in Emacs. There is no legal problem affecting python.el distributed with GNU Emacs. From fbe2 at comcast.net Mon Feb 2 03:37:06 2009 From: fbe2 at comcast.net (Beverley Eyre) Date: Sun, 01 Feb 2009 18:37:06 -0800 Subject: [Python-mode] replacing python.el In-Reply-To: <87vdrt6flh.fsf@liv.ac.uk> References: <4980316B.7080503@online.de> <49855643.4070803@comcast.net> <87vdrt6flh.fsf@liv.ac.uk> Message-ID: <49865C52.1060901@comcast.net> Dave et al, I'm not sure what you think "isn't true". I'll repeat that I don't blame you for using python-mode.el when you wrote python.el. My whole point was that you did. The following are some of the comments in your code that generated my remarks: (from python.el, GNU Emacs version 22.3.1) ------------------------------ (defvar python-mode-map (let ((map (make-sparse-keymap))) ;; Mostly taken from python-mode.el. ------------- ;; Fixme: Like python-mode.el; not convinced by this. --------- ;; indentable comment like python-mode.el --------- ;; Fixme: I'm not convinced by this logic from python-mode.el. --------- ;; The logic is taken from python-mode.el. --------------------------------- Plainly you did what those who were talking about 'merging' were going to do too. My 'job' (if you could call it that) was to compare how the two modes did things (i.e. their logic), and what things they chose to do (their features). The fact that you occasionally used the 'logic' from python-mode.el was something I was glad to see, as it made my job easier. Maybe you object to the word "peck", but you used code from python-mode, even if you altered it in the transition. It's unclear from your comments whether you copied the logic only or more, but that's not important (except maybe to lawyers). My whole point is that if you borrowed logic or code or ideas for features or whatever from python-mode.el for python.el, then it's a little hypocritical to try to legally prevent those trying to make a better, more useful, mode from potentially using some of your code in the same manner. Not that I feel like it anymore, to be honest. From my understanding, no one suggesting cutting and pasting your code. The discussion was about whether your logic was better or not, what features each had, and ultimately whether python.el had anything in it that was worth learning from when upgrading python-mode.el. This is where I'm coming from, Dave. The people who wrote python-mode.el start to plan an upgrade, and, noting that there is confusion, duplication of effort, and, needlessly, two python modes, wonder whether their might be some way to make a better mode using both. As anyone who looks at both modes at all can instantly see, cutting and pasting is not going to work. Any 'merging' will necessarily have to be done on the level of using the best algorithm for doing X, and incorporating the most useful features (as well as removing features that aren't so useful). Tell me this isn't what you did when you wrote python.el. Why did you choose to use the 'logic' from certain features in python-mode.el if you hadn't gone through it specifically for the purpose of seeing what you could use and what you couldn't? Plainly that was what was on your mind. LEGAL DISCLAIMER: Dave, I'm not accusing you of doing anything illegal, or even bad. I think what you did was good. I think others should be allowed to do the same thing. DEFINITION: "the same thing" By "the same thing" this author (to be henceforth designated as "this author") does not mean, imply, point to, or otherwise entail any action that can be classed as either legal or illegal (i.e. "follow a copyright law" or "break a copyright law"), but only means, implies, points to, and entails actions that can be classed as "programming" (i.e. writing symbols understood by computer compilers and/or interpreters for the purpose of causing, directing, or changing the behavior of computers). Oi vey. Bev On 02/01/2009 12:56 PM, Dave Love wrote: > Beverley Eyre writes: > > >> Don't forget that there was a peck of code that Dave Love took from >> python-mode.el in his python.el. >> > > That's not true, as I've already responded to Eyre with some subset of > these Ccs. As well as this claim of wholesale copying, and thus me > lying about the copyright status of the code, there was the implication > that I was violating other's copyright, and that people should ignore > the licence on free software (bizarrely on the basis of what rms > supposedly wrote). I advised legal advice on copyright, and should > probably have mentioned libel. > > [For the benefit of emacs-devel, this all originated when I complained > about someone distributing a chunk of my code with the FSF copyright > notice stripped as a patch for python-mode.el, which was under a simple > permissive licence. I also saw a call for volunteers to merge the two > modes, and pointed out the GPL'd code couldn't be used under the > permissive licence -- there was no mention of changing it -- and that > code couldn't be used in Emacs without a proper assignment.] > > Obviously if the FSF's legal advice on what's significant for copyright > purposes has changed, if I misinterpreted it, or made a mistake, I'd > re-write stuff appropriately. However, I don't think it's worth > worrying about it on the basis of someone who's so far quoted some > duplicated keybindings, and a Fixme comment that was clearly mine, as > evidence of all this copied code. If Emacs developers are worried, > please contact me more privately. > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From turnbull at sk.tsukuba.ac.jp Mon Feb 2 03:37:10 2009 From: turnbull at sk.tsukuba.ac.jp (Stephen J. Turnbull) Date: Mon, 02 Feb 2009 11:37:10 +0900 Subject: [Python-mode] FSF assignment policy In-Reply-To: <49860867.40507@online.de> References: <497ECF0A.4010005@online.de> <684BEBBE-9FB8-4E53-81D7-3C5881B68E31@python.org> <4980316B.7080503@online.de> <87bptm6maq.fsf@liv.ac.uk> <49860867.40507@online.de> Message-ID: <87r62hh8dl.fsf@xemacs.org> Andreas Roehler writes: > IMO assignment policy contradicts the spirit of free software. Please, Andreas, drop this thread. You are not going to change anyone's mind. Here's why: > Copyright is an important issue now, taken very seriously. Which is as it must be; the threat perceived by the free software movement is from outside the community. Of course, the so-called open source advocates perceive that threat as an opportunity. Nevertheless, copyright remains important there, too. > Assignment stifles cooperation True (aside from the exaggeration inherent in "stifle"). That is an unavoidable side effect of a policy that is necessary from one point of view. > rather then being helpful. It is helpful. The GNU Project's mission is to preserve a body of code sufficient to support a free operating system, and it is the FSF's job to provide legal support for that. The assignment allows the FSF to defend code you contribute on your behalf, at no cost to you. It would be far more costly to defend the code if it were not assigned. *You* may not find that helpful, and there's nothing wrong with your perception if not. But many others do, and a lot of good has come of that. > My offer was and is: let's cooperate. In all sincerity, good luck to you! It's not easy, though. From fbe2 at comcast.net Mon Feb 2 05:05:22 2009 From: fbe2 at comcast.net (Beverley Eyre) Date: Sun, 01 Feb 2009 20:05:22 -0800 Subject: [Python-mode] FSF assignment policy In-Reply-To: <49860867.40507@online.de> References: <497ECF0A.4010005@online.de> <684BEBBE-9FB8-4E53-81D7-3C5881B68E31@python.org> <4980316B.7080503@online.de> <87bptm6maq.fsf@liv.ac.uk> <49860867.40507@online.de> Message-ID: <49867102.4030802@comcast.net> Andreas wrote: > > IMO assignment policy contradicts the spirit of free software. > It shows very unpleasant damages in mind > already. Copyright is an important issue now, taken > very seriously. Before code was exchanged freely, as > Richard told nicely the very beginnings of the > movement. Meanwhile we came to the opposite: jealously > and meticulous line counting habits. > > Assignment stifles cooperation rather then being helpful. > > > My offer was and is: let's cooperate. There are enough > things to do beside pure code-writing. Nor should the > assignment nor the GPL-versions-question block > cooperation completely. We must respect hindrances as > it exists, that's right. > > I find that, in all this discussion, only Andreas and I seem to be talking about the big picture rather than debating legal points. From my pov, I volunteer to help a worthy effort to make an emacs mode that I frequently use better, and suddenly I'm being menaced by a representative of a powerful organization, telling me to ceases and desist immediately or face potential legal action. This scenario rings a bell. This is from wikipedia on rms' page: "In the late 1970s and early 1980s, the hacker culture that Stallman thrived in began to fragment. To prevent software from being used on their competitors' computers, most manufacturers stopped distributing source code and began using copyright and restrictive software licenses to limit or prohibit copying and redistribution." Hmmm...... "...began using copyright and restrictive software licenses to limit or prohibit copying and redistribution." Dave said in a previous email that it was bizarre that I should try to lecture him on the original impetus that motivated those who started the open source movement. But from where I sit, some of those involved have lost their way. Whether it's Microsoft menacing me with lawyers so I don't use their code, or GNU.org menacing me with lawyers so I don't use their code, is irrelevant. It all looks the same from here. In my first reply to Dave I asked whether it would be possible to cooperate in this endeavor. Andreas just asked again. Personally, I don't really care whether any product of a 'merge' effort is distributed with Emacs. If you have to get it from python.org, that's fine with me, and really, not a bad idea. Maybe we can agree up-front that a new python-mode.el won't be distributed with GNU Emacs and join forces to write a better mode for python users with the 'assignment' issue out of the way once and for all. Bev From cyd at stupidchicken.com Mon Feb 2 04:37:38 2009 From: cyd at stupidchicken.com (Chong Yidong) Date: Sun, 01 Feb 2009 22:37:38 -0500 Subject: [Python-mode] replacing python.el In-Reply-To: <49865C52.1060901@comcast.net> (Beverley Eyre's message of "Sun, 01 Feb 2009 18:37:06 -0800") References: <4980316B.7080503@online.de> <49855643.4070803@comcast.net> <87vdrt6flh.fsf@liv.ac.uk> <49865C52.1060901@comcast.net> Message-ID: <87skmxzeyl.fsf@cyd.mit.edu> Beverley Eyre writes: > From my understanding, no one suggesting cutting and pasting your > code. Dave's objection, if I understand it correctly, is precisely the cutting and pasting of his code: this all originated when I complained about someone distributing a chunk of my code with the FSF copyright notice stripped as a patch for python-mode.el, which was under a simple permissive licence. From fbe2 at comcast.net Mon Feb 2 05:25:59 2009 From: fbe2 at comcast.net (Beverley Eyre) Date: Sun, 01 Feb 2009 20:25:59 -0800 Subject: [Python-mode] FSF assignment policy In-Reply-To: <87r62hh8dl.fsf@xemacs.org> References: <497ECF0A.4010005@online.de> <684BEBBE-9FB8-4E53-81D7-3C5881B68E31@python.org> <4980316B.7080503@online.de> <87bptm6maq.fsf@liv.ac.uk> <49860867.40507@online.de> <87r62hh8dl.fsf@xemacs.org> Message-ID: <498675D7.8090505@comcast.net> On 02/01/2009 06:37 PM, Stephen J. Turnbull wrote: > Andreas Roehler writes: > > > IMO assignment policy contradicts the spirit of free software. > > Please, Andreas, drop this thread. You are not going to change > anyone's mind. > > Here's why: > > > Copyright is an important issue now, taken very seriously. > > Which is as it must be; the threat perceived by the free software > movement is from outside the community. Of course, the so-called open > source advocates perceive that threat as an opportunity. > Nevertheless, copyright remains important there, too. > But not all those whose distributions involves contributions by users force them to assign their copyright. The "free software" movement hasn't chosen that path, other than the FSF afaik. Certainly Xemacs, TeX, LaTeX haven't. Stephen Turnbull wrote: > It is helpful. The GNU Project's mission is to preserve a body of > code sufficient to support a free operating system, and it is the > FSF's job to provide legal support for that. The assignment allows > the FSF to defend code you contribute on your behalf, at no cost to > you. It would be far more costly to defend the code if it were not > assigned. > That's not so, Stephen. Again, look at some of the other applications that are in a similar position. You should read the LaTeX license. An early section of it states: "The document `modguide.tex' in the base LaTeX distribution explains the motivation behind the conditions of this license. It explains, for example, why distributing LaTeX under the GNU General Public License (GPL) was considered inappropriate." I think that their structure is well conceived and protects both the integrity and functionality of the LaTeX source and packages submitted by users without any need to assign copyrights. Their situation and that of GNU Emacs seems very similar to me (note caveat). Bev From fbe2 at comcast.net Mon Feb 2 05:41:11 2009 From: fbe2 at comcast.net (Beverley Eyre) Date: Sun, 01 Feb 2009 20:41:11 -0800 Subject: [Python-mode] replacing python.el In-Reply-To: <87skmxzeyl.fsf@cyd.mit.edu> References: <4980316B.7080503@online.de> <49855643.4070803@comcast.net> <87vdrt6flh.fsf@liv.ac.uk> <49865C52.1060901@comcast.net> <87skmxzeyl.fsf@cyd.mit.edu> Message-ID: <49867967.20809@comcast.net> On 02/01/2009 07:37 PM, Chong Yidong wrote: > Beverley Eyre writes: > > >> From my understanding, no one suggesting cutting and pasting your >> code. >> > > Dave's objection, if I understand it correctly, is precisely the cutting > and pasting of his code: > > this all originated when I complained about someone distributing a > chunk of my code with the FSF copyright notice stripped as a patch for > python-mode.el, which was under a simple permissive licence. > > I don't have time to go and re-read the beginning of this thread, but I recall that very early on, everyone agreed that 'merging' couldn't be done by cutting and pasting because of the incompatible structures involved. The conversation was about how each mode accomplished this or that (e.g. indenting), and which features were offered by each. You mean that this whole cacophony could have been avoided if we had just assured Dave that no cutting and pasting would occur? Bev -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From fbe2 at comcast.net Mon Feb 2 06:03:06 2009 From: fbe2 at comcast.net (Beverley Eyre) Date: Sun, 01 Feb 2009 21:03:06 -0800 Subject: [Python-mode] replacing python.el In-Reply-To: <6000FD22-0346-46C8-9696-15F54410B64B@python.org> References: <4980316B.7080503@online.de> <6000FD22-0346-46C8-9696-15F54410B64B@python.org> Message-ID: <49867E8A.6000402@comcast.net> Barry Wrote: > > > I don't know what more we can do and it seems like python-mode.el will > never be included in Emacs. Oh well. I don't really see that as a tragedy, Barry. When I'm writing a new paper (in LaTeX, of course) and I want the latest version of IEEEtran.cls I go to the IEEE. Most of the class files I search for these days I have to find on someone's web page, usually the author's. It's not really a big deal. For me, I'm going to continue the project of analyzing both modes, if only for my own personal use. It occurred to me somewhere in the midst of this flapdoodle that if I want to improve python-mode.el for GNU Emacs (which I use) and make some other changes I would like, I'll have to do it myself, which is ok (no cutting and pasting, Dave, I swear). Also, if I can make a suggestion, Barry, I think it would be a good idea to ask Dave, or rms, or someone at GNU, to remove the derogatory comments about python-mode.el that are gratuitously included in the header of python.el. I don't know of any other emacs mode or library that has such comments, and they should be removed. Bev From barry at python.org Mon Feb 2 14:11:11 2009 From: barry at python.org (Barry Warsaw) Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2009 08:11:11 -0500 Subject: [Python-mode] replacing python.el In-Reply-To: References: <4980316B.7080503@online.de> <6000FD22-0346-46C8-9696-15F54410B64B@python.org> Message-ID: -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Feb 1, 2009, at 10:42 AM, Jeff Kowalczyk wrote: > On Sun, 01 Feb 2009 07:33:15 -0500, Barry Warsaw wrote: >> As Andreas pointed out, we have not yet merged his changes into >> python- >> mode.el. >> >> I had hoped that it would be possible to merge python-mode.el and >> python.el and reduce the confusion and inconvenience of Python X/ >> Emacs >> users. Andreas's opinion is that that is technically impossible >> and I >> believe it is Dave's opinion that it will be practically impossible >> from a legal perspective. > > If Andreas' changes were to remain unmerged, would the merger of > python-mode.el and python.el still be regarded as technically and/or > legally impossible? I will defer to Andreas and Bev since they've looked at this issue most closely. Barry -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (Darwin) iQCVAwUBSYbw8HEjvBPtnXfVAQL6CQP/dWgzfxYptW7BXcVmliK6ufZYMjHQ8Mna Yi9bX3gJxFsh8A0XG2OmiydHoKxNHv3EMao3rVoZHA3xcpOAtPfAGxdFbOoRJx+Q idw8j3Z3A7lFO2S8zxQqaRFAliohhh1QNCpPS9iVxWkiTkK+0jyv55EuRe8TV2sq +vmMDu0FPQk= =s2L0 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From barry at python.org Mon Feb 2 14:39:30 2009 From: barry at python.org (Barry Warsaw) Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2009 08:39:30 -0500 Subject: [Python-mode] replacing python.el In-Reply-To: <87skmxzeyl.fsf@cyd.mit.edu> References: <4980316B.7080503@online.de> <49855643.4070803@comcast.net> <87vdrt6flh.fsf@liv.ac.uk> <49865C52.1060901@comcast.net> <87skmxzeyl.fsf@cyd.mit.edu> Message-ID: <525C9658-F600-4AF1-90CE-044F26954838@python.org> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Feb 1, 2009, at 10:37 PM, Chong Yidong wrote: > Beverley Eyre writes: > >> From my understanding, no one suggesting cutting and pasting your >> code. > > Dave's objection, if I understand it correctly, is precisely the > cutting > and pasting of his code: > > this all originated when I complained about someone distributing a > chunk of my code with the FSF copyright notice stripped as a patch > for > python-mode.el, which was under a simple permissive licence. Which is no longer a problem. https://launchpad.net/python-mode/+announcement/1906 Barry -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (Darwin) iQCVAwUBSYb3knEjvBPtnXfVAQJymAP/RKNaA+/WG9z97Zbq/s0t/PC4U7CBR9oy 9SweAhvOF+SOQMgRE0pqiZOxqXxvxfokvxqXjiOinHUAya7m0ViwY6tMwTnCgKcL q5bnlOMO1H/b8lxicKDvtzReMZOjHVR3YwMCTu6r87RMn0ODEOcngsHJgVanYr8q QBc0t5HFvhQ= =6Yc2 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From andreas.roehler at online.de Mon Feb 2 14:42:35 2009 From: andreas.roehler at online.de (Andreas Roehler) Date: Mon, 02 Feb 2009 14:42:35 +0100 Subject: [Python-mode] replacing python.el In-Reply-To: References: <4980316B.7080503@online.de> <6000FD22-0346-46C8-9696-15F54410B64B@python.org> Message-ID: <4986F84B.2080202@online.de> Barry Warsaw wrote: > On Feb 1, 2009, at 10:42 AM, Jeff Kowalczyk wrote: > >> On Sun, 01 Feb 2009 07:33:15 -0500, Barry Warsaw wrote: >>> As Andreas pointed out, we have not yet merged his changes into python- >>> mode.el. >>> >>> I had hoped that it would be possible to merge python-mode.el and >>> python.el and reduce the confusion and inconvenience of Python X/Emacs >>> users. Andreas's opinion is that that is technically impossible and I >>> believe it is Dave's opinion that it will be practically impossible >>> from a legal perspective. > >> If Andreas' changes were to remain unmerged, would the merger of >> python-mode.el and python.el still be regarded as technically and/or >> legally impossible? > > I will defer to Andreas and Bev since they've looked at this issue most > closely. > > Barry > Ahh Barry, you are really a wise man. I'm looking forward for some funny days. :) Hi Jeff, we had a lot of traffic around this question last days: maybe let the course of events giving the answer? Beverley has declared its interest, from which I expect in any case knowledge return for all of us. My interest is compatibility, which can be reached by different means. So let's go back to coding and see what comes out. OK? Andreas R?hler -- http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~a-roehler/python-mode/python-mode.el/files https://code.launchpad.net/s-x-emacs-werkstatt/ From barry at python.org Mon Feb 2 15:08:08 2009 From: barry at python.org (Barry Warsaw) Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2009 09:08:08 -0500 Subject: [Python-mode] replacing python.el In-Reply-To: <87wsc96fu1.fsf@liv.ac.uk> References: <4980316B.7080503@online.de> <87wsc96fu1.fsf@liv.ac.uk> Message-ID: <8A77E3A9-82E2-41A2-BFFF-9DB952091473@python.org> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 In the meantime, can you fix a few small inaccuracies in python.el? ;; There is another Python mode, python-mode.el, used by XEmacs and ;; maintained with Python. That isn't covered by an FSF copyright ;; assignment, unlike this code, and seems not to be well-maintained ;; for Emacs (though I've submitted fixes). This mode is rather ;; simpler and is better in other ways. In particular, using the ;; syntax functions with text properties maintained by font-lock makes ;; it more correct with arbitrary string and comment contents. python-mode.el is now maintained as a separate package, by some of the core Python developers and others. Please include a link to its project page: http://launchpad.net/python-mode Also, python-mode.el works perfectly fine with Emacs. I use it 8+ hours a day this way. Thanks, Barry -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (Darwin) iQCVAwUBSYb+SXEjvBPtnXfVAQJXgwP+KYiAqn2xueZCSwmdZrtauljVw0FFaG5H JC/EFkb8S7D24Vuls9kjMwMGhfaS916dGE5qJ8IM/cBPnuIcdN6/vwssx9rgGhy+ QsyMWA1T7Wg4vRIO1u/cCOcPOsOFVIEt7pBnqK3dTfGS2mDH3e6skRtqGy6s7+I8 z3dk/7UJv68= =JowZ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From barry at python.org Mon Feb 2 15:10:05 2009 From: barry at python.org (Barry Warsaw) Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2009 09:10:05 -0500 Subject: [Python-mode] replacing python.el In-Reply-To: <49867E8A.6000402@comcast.net> References: <4980316B.7080503@online.de> <6000FD22-0346-46C8-9696-15F54410B64B@python.org> <49867E8A.6000402@comcast.net> Message-ID: <36F2670B-063A-4672-A5CC-D7822C37F5CC@python.org> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Feb 2, 2009, at 12:03 AM, Beverley Eyre wrote: > Also, if I can make a suggestion, Barry, I think it would be a good > idea to ask Dave, or rms, or someone at GNU, to remove > the derogatory comments about python-mode.el that are gratuitously > included in the header of python.el. I don't know of any other emacs > mode or library that has such comments, and they should be removed. Looking in Emacs 23, I just sent a message about this. I didn't see anything derogatory, but I did ask for a few minor fixes to things that are no longer accurate. Did you have some other text in mind? Barry -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (Darwin) iQCVAwUBSYb+vXEjvBPtnXfVAQI7CAQAhIghnZHZq/QQHeMBy3DWSJhuXlgdosDz kfRUdgxLs1gg2zXHLp5i75p8tcDf9P+qnTUS6aSIRX/LkQ1LdKL11gmAKO3vwbjW rfLweaHcGh7mnMaxWn5WwirsSV8bR1fC2XUXJGNQjtXKbeKugeyAgUJtDZMSsHFe mTlZg01zQK0= =xttq -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From barry at python.org Mon Feb 2 16:32:52 2009 From: barry at python.org (Barry Warsaw) Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2009 10:32:52 -0500 Subject: [Python-mode] python-mode for Debian GNU/Linux distribution In-Reply-To: <20090201193600.GN28667@washoe.rutgers.edu> References: <20090201193600.GN28667@washoe.rutgers.edu> Message-ID: <5B2939A9-8F2D-41E6-8E97-CFF17994A93D@python.org> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Feb 1, 2009, at 2:36 PM, Yaroslav Halchenko wrote: > I am new to the list, so few words about me... I am just one in the > army > of Debian developers and maintainers, I also look at human brains on a > daily basis, and I have 2 kids and a wife ;) and as you could guess > -- > I am developing in Python and live in emacs. Kids and wives will do that to you. I have one of each, which is probably why I use Python and Emacs too. I don't look at human brains on a /daily/ basis, but just whenever the opportunity arises. Human minds, well, that's a different story. > I decided to take over python-mode package in Debian, which was > previously maintained by Matthias Klose. Since the open bug-count and > outdatedness of the package in Debian grew to the level of my personal > threshold, I decided to sacrifice some time and reincarnate the > package > with your fresh release. Fantastic! Thanks. > I hope you would not mind few questions I have, and if you are > interested in the refreshed Debian package -- read on below > > Questions > --------- > > I see that people are actively engaged in the discussion of the future > of python.el and python-mode.el, but I hope someone would be able to > clarify just few questions to me which I've not got cleared-out > > 1. what entity or a person is currently a copyright holder for > python-mode? > > python-mode.el lists: > > ,-- > | ;; Copyright (C) 1992,1993,1994 Tim Peters > | > | ;; Author: 2003-2009 https://launchpad.net/python-mode > | ;; 1995-2002 Barry A. Warsaw > | ;; 1992-1994 Tim Peters > `--- > > so, there is no copyright statements since 1994... I see that multiple > people contributed: > > $> git shortlog -n -s python-mode.el > 247 bwarsaw > 32 montanaro > 9 Barry Warsaw > 9 klm > > so there are at least 3 persons (after Tim) who contributed, are > they all > copyright holders, or it was transfered to Barry? > > I know that you are discussing about transferring copyright to FSF, > but I > wonder what is the current list of the copyright holders in the main > trunk? I would say that that is a very murky question. It's probably about as well understood as the copyright ownership of XEmacs. > 2. I guess respective authors are copyright holders of pycomplete* > and doctest* > files (and license is BSD), right? See above. Nobody objected to my call to GPLv3 the file, so I did that. I think that's the best answer we're ever likely to get for this file. > Debian packaging > ---------------- > > If you are interested in the packaging I've done: > I have prepared first tentative version of the package, which based on > * previous packaging done by Matthias > * current release which is present in your bzr trunk branch. > > Unfortunately I have no clue in bzr, and I am a git user, hence I > cloned > your bzr repository using git-bzr, and hope that it will work in the > future for > incremental updates ;-) I'm not a git user, so if you can translate changes back into bzr and push branches to Launchpad, that would be idea. Hopefully git-bzr can do that. If not, patches will have to do. > You can see my repository of the tentative package at > > http://git.onerussian.com/?p=deb/python-mode.git;a=summary > (or if you like to clone it, use > git clone http://git.onerussian.com/vcs/deb/python-mode.git) > > 'master' branch (as well as bzr/upstream) should correspond to your > development > branch, branch 'upstream' is just a 'filtered' version of master, > which I based > actually on the tarballs which were present in debian versions of > the package. > So it is what you have in trunk but without website (I guess there > is no reason > to distribute it atm for Debian users. And branch debian is actual > debian > packaging on top of 'upstream' branch. > > Tentative package is available from > http://itanix.rutgers.edu/rumba/dists/sid/perspect/binary-all/python/python-mode_5.1.0-1 > ~pre1_all.deb > > As soon as 'copyright' is clarified I will upload package into > Debian sid > (unstable), which should close at least 7 bug reports opened in > bugs.debian.org. > > any comments and wishes are welcome Hope the above helps. Barry -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (Darwin) iQCVAwUBSYcSJXEjvBPtnXfVAQIOtAQAtIabZsXasQgh5qQaMpaltiUpO30UvVJK IqOsYwXs5CXl/amlVjAOinjuUzpRW5pvQqtIHt/vOT2zUyBzw+oJ8Kdc+3Pa7TzJ zpkpPY4L7tIYtruRZzaav9ob4v7Tzrt9V0C0xyeQygpFPxtN67gzkOTnHUz0odBM WeDVvpkq8G0= =IIBV -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From barry at python.org Mon Feb 2 16:42:56 2009 From: barry at python.org (Barry Warsaw) Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2009 10:42:56 -0500 Subject: [Python-mode] merging python-mode.el and python.el In-Reply-To: <87d4e26mkn.fsf@liv.ac.uk> References: <87fxjgqp4g.fsf@liv.ac.uk> <4973D6C1.50500@comcast.net> <87k58gqleq.fsf@liv.ac.uk> <87d4e26mkn.fsf@liv.ac.uk> Message-ID: <82552E0E-2377-4864-8437-743E7FE0B874@python.org> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Feb 1, 2009, at 1:26 PM, Dave Love wrote: > Doubtless, but Emacs isn't just for Python programmers, and surely > modes > should be consistent. That's pretty much a universal design decision across all of software, isn't it? python.el takes one approach, python-mode.el takes a different one. I've been a X/Emacs user for probably close to 25 years and python-mode.el does not feel unnatural to me, even if it has some unorthodox coding conventions. > I rely (modulo a few historical things which > should be fixed) on the same conventions if I'm hacking Python as, > say, > Fortran, sh, or Lisp. In fact, part of the idea of the new mode was > to > figure out what more to abstract over similar modes. Sure, all valid approaches, although there's an important difference in aims between python.el and python-mode.el. The former only cares about Emacs compatibility. The latter cares about both Emacs and XEmacs compatibility. In many cases the abstraction are different enough as to make refactoring a challenge. > If people don't like the conventions or want things which break other > code, they can customize and distribute the customizations, of course. > (Custom theme support may help.) I'd hope they'd try to understand > the > general conventions, though, and not cause confusion over them. Sure, but there's another difference. python-mode.el has been around for a very long time and its users for the most part like the way it works. As someone who would likely begin to curse his own fingers, I don't think we should break that backwards compatibility in python- mode.el. >> Let's agree that everyone involved have the right intention to >> improve >> the situation, > > I don't doubt your intentions -- sorry if it seems otherwise. It's a > different matter for someone else if they don't respect the FSF's > copyright, for instance, and that's presumably mutual. Of course. I certainly appreciate the arguments that Andreas and Beverley make as to copyright. I have my own opinions on that subject both as a FLOSS developer and musician. But this isn't an effective forum for changing either the FSF's stance, nor US or international law on the matter, so I believe we must adapt to the regime under which we live, and take the fight to the forums where such change can actually be affected. >> I still propose we GPLv3 python-mode.el. Thus if we cannot merge, we >> will simply continue to develop python-mode.el separately, educate >> users as to the differences, and let them decide which they prefer. >> With a GPLv3 python-mode.el we can all borrow from each other. > > Fine. That solves the basic problem of copying code from Emacs in > accordance with the licence -- e.g. with appropriate copyright notices > -- but I'm sure you'll keep an eye on that. Cool. Barry -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (Darwin) iQCUAwUBSYcUgHEjvBPtnXfVAQI16AP3d62FgQ3YTFmpReFPG6X5a1udkj0Uas/d 9DwWOtXT/PZ4+f5MmwuhIO/Ehx3+rlbL3BFwYYHeQgVfgx+LudRZT7zi+A64KhG1 TzhGWCfSPED7DsP0HsDGZDaXuGcWkm/PEWkEi0fvqet5alaOkDi4SA7KTmNijINT G0yCdQajsg== =m+IZ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From lists at onerussian.com Mon Feb 2 16:47:05 2009 From: lists at onerussian.com (Yaroslav Halchenko) Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2009 10:47:05 -0500 Subject: [Python-mode] python-mode for Debian GNU/Linux distribution In-Reply-To: <5B2939A9-8F2D-41E6-8E97-CFF17994A93D@python.org> References: <20090201193600.GN28667@washoe.rutgers.edu> <5B2939A9-8F2D-41E6-8E97-CFF17994A93D@python.org> Message-ID: <20090202154705.GW28667@washoe.rutgers.edu> > Kids and wives will do that to you. I have one of each, which is > probably why I use Python and Emacs too. I don't look at human brains > on a /daily/ basis, but just whenever the opportunity arises. Human > minds, well, that's a different story. LOL ;-) human minds are indeed a different topic, although some people think they know the 'Theory of Mind' [1] (although it is just a loud name for smth which should have been named "Theory of Mine" at best ;-)) > > I know that you are discussing about transferring copyright to FSF, > > but I > > wonder what is the current list of the copyright holders in the main > > trunk? > I would say that that is a very murky question. It's probably about > as well understood as the copyright ownership of XEmacs. hm... then I am not sure how you could talk about transferring copyright to FSF if it is not even vaguely known who owns copyrights over current code? I guess, all your contributions are copyright by you (or should it be Canonical?), and pardon my ignorance -- who is klm? may be for now I could simply list all 4 of you (including Tim) as copyright holders (and will lookup dates for those two in the logs) > > 2. I guess respective authors are copyright holders of pycomplete* > > and doctest* > > files (and license is BSD), right? > See above. Nobody objected to my call to GPLv3 the file, so I did > that. I think that's the best answer we're ever likely to get for > this file. right -- but that is for python-mode.el, and was I right about those pycomplete.* and doctest* files present in the repository (and shipped in the debian package)? > > your bzr repository using git-bzr, and hope that it will work in the > > future for > > incremental updates ;-) > I'm not a git user, so if you can translate changes back into bzr and > push branches to Launchpad, that would be idea. Hopefully git-bzr can > do that. If not, patches will have to do. yeah -- I will check it out if it is anyhow possible to push my new branches (debian at least) into bzr. Otherwise, since I've not patched actual code (just packaging), I have nothing to contribute to trunk python-mode.el. [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theory_of_mind -- .-. =------------------------------ /v\ ----------------------------= Keep in touch // \\ (yoh@|www.)onerussian.com Yaroslav Halchenko /( )\ ICQ#: 60653192 Linux User ^^-^^ [175555] -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 197 bytes Desc: Digital signature URL: From barry at python.org Mon Feb 2 16:49:51 2009 From: barry at python.org (Barry Warsaw) Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2009 10:49:51 -0500 Subject: [Python-mode] py-block-at-point and other reporting functions In-Reply-To: <49820989.3030502@online.de> References: <497DCF0E.1060007@online.de> <416F410B-1669-4BA8-AFD1-FEC3F5B7CF4A@python.org> <497EB87E.9040501@online.de> <7BB14F93-05F0-4D1C-80DB-5D7B51E87345@python.org> <49820989.3030502@online.de> Message-ID: <541EF9EC-51FD-4026-9A51-D02872895555@python.org> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Jan 29, 2009, at 2:54 PM, Andreas Roehler wrote: > Goal was: commands should > > - speak for themselves > - need no docu reading > - be easily to put at a key or alias. > > Therefor, if we have a compound command, which with an > option changes its behaviour, IMO its better to split > it into two or more at the user level. > > Old function `py-beginning-of-def-or-class' is renamed to > `py-beginning-of-def-or-class-if-arg', now adressed by either > > py-beginning-of-function, > py-beginning-of-class, or > py-beginning-of-def-or-class (really "or", i.e. stops at both) > > > So old `py-beginning-of-def-or-class' remains the > function with the guts and is called by the new > introduced. > > In the last case (really "or") that way: > > (py-beginning-of-def-or-class-if-arg 'either arg) > > py-beginning-of-def-or-class-if-arg still exists as command, > you may simply change the key if you want to use it as before. That actually sounds fine to me. > BTW: opened another account at lp. Thanks for introducing me to > bazaar. > > Maybe have a look at http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~a-roehler/s-x-emacs-werkstatt/ Maybe this url: https://launchpad.net/s-x-emacs-werkstatt Looks cool. Hope you like bazaar! Barry -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (Darwin) iQCVAwUBSYcWH3EjvBPtnXfVAQIFcQP8DQ/sE5A8IBb2k1zAaSZD3urNurcTylgR Zv2vpObfRwrmcp6clDBYOp0McHwL6sz2cerV5Q7IfDPMsxT8Be6jmNolmagazmc1 7HzdqMY9lGSGiwoi7qNFiMOSs8VVs/1Qd/R2bLKFkrF2rFNxbNps+qYiC48OopIg XeieSzLf8Qs= =ZsB/ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From barry at python.org Mon Feb 2 16:56:29 2009 From: barry at python.org (Barry Warsaw) Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2009 10:56:29 -0500 Subject: [Python-mode] python-mode for Debian GNU/Linux distribution In-Reply-To: <20090202154705.GW28667@washoe.rutgers.edu> References: <20090201193600.GN28667@washoe.rutgers.edu> <5B2939A9-8F2D-41E6-8E97-CFF17994A93D@python.org> <20090202154705.GW28667@washoe.rutgers.edu> Message-ID: <3B06D7AC-A7DC-4212-97A1-76F7B5CD38DA@python.org> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Feb 2, 2009, at 10:47 AM, Yaroslav Halchenko wrote: >> Kids and wives will do that to you. I have one of each, which is >> probably why I use Python and Emacs too. I don't look at human >> brains >> on a /daily/ basis, but just whenever the opportunity arises. Human >> minds, well, that's a different story. > > LOL ;-) human minds are indeed a different topic, although some people > think they know the 'Theory of Mind' [1] (although it is just a loud > name for smth which should have been named "Theory of Mine" at > best ;-)) Okay, we'll leave that for another thread. :) >>> I know that you are discussing about transferring copyright to FSF, >>> but I >>> wonder what is the current list of the copyright holders in the main >>> trunk? >> I would say that that is a very murky question. It's probably about >> as well understood as the copyright ownership of XEmacs. > > hm... then I am not sure how you could talk about transferring > copyright > to FSF if it is not even vaguely known who owns copyrights over > current > code? I guess, all your contributions are copyright by you (or > should it > be Canonical?), and pardon my ignorance -- who is klm? Canonical does not own my changes to python-mode.el. I am merely offering to transfer the copyright to my changes to the FSF. I clearly can't do that for changes other people have contributed to the file. Perhaps I should just disclaim my changes. klm is Ken Manheimer. > may be for now I could simply list all 4 of you (including Tim) as > copyright holders (and will lookup dates for those two in the logs) Sure, why not. >>> 2. I guess respective authors are copyright holders of pycomplete* >>> and doctest* >>> files (and license is BSD), right? > >> See above. Nobody objected to my call to GPLv3 the file, so I did >> that. I think that's the best answer we're ever likely to get for >> this file. > > right -- but that is for python-mode.el, and was I right about those > pycomplete.* and doctest* files present in the repository (and shipped > in the debian package)? I don't recall touching those files. Without looking through the history, I can't say more about them. >>> your bzr repository using git-bzr, and hope that it will work in the >>> future for >>> incremental updates ;-) >> I'm not a git user, so if you can translate changes back into bzr and >> push branches to Launchpad, that would be idea. Hopefully git-bzr >> can >> do that. If not, patches will have to do. > yeah -- I will check it out if it is anyhow possible to push my new > branches (debian at least) into bzr. Otherwise, since I've not patched > actual code (just packaging), I have nothing to contribute to > trunk python-mode.el. Cool. Barry -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (Darwin) iQCVAwUBSYcXrXEjvBPtnXfVAQJXFgQAlPQBGeymUsJv5utUPH0RlE2oHcl0W3WC ASm5/4eOqllbMvgLOTckZ0orkzRBNMF/FrQI61SUjb0A+giavxYCHxoIimXLUSi1 iM3STmSeM8bQJ/VFLV9osFXjB1uZCFqLJSNTqjyV8UiQYALIlaNrXOZULaVlenSH voHFSZtET80= =DEAs -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From lists at onerussian.com Mon Feb 2 17:00:33 2009 From: lists at onerussian.com (Yaroslav Halchenko) Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2009 11:00:33 -0500 Subject: [Python-mode] python-mode for Debian GNU/Linux distribution In-Reply-To: <3B06D7AC-A7DC-4212-97A1-76F7B5CD38DA@python.org> References: <20090201193600.GN28667@washoe.rutgers.edu> <5B2939A9-8F2D-41E6-8E97-CFF17994A93D@python.org> <20090202154705.GW28667@washoe.rutgers.edu> <3B06D7AC-A7DC-4212-97A1-76F7B5CD38DA@python.org> Message-ID: <20090202160033.GB28667@washoe.rutgers.edu> > Canonical does not own my changes to python-mode.el. I am merely > offering to transfer the copyright to my changes to the FSF. I > clearly can't do that for changes other people have contributed to the > file. > Perhaps I should just disclaim my changes. > klm is Ken Manheimer. great -- thanks, that should be sufficient for little me ;-) -- .-. =------------------------------ /v\ ----------------------------= Keep in touch // \\ (yoh@|www.)onerussian.com Yaroslav Halchenko /( )\ ICQ#: 60653192 Linux User ^^-^^ [175555] -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 197 bytes Desc: Digital signature URL: From rms at gnu.org Mon Feb 2 17:43:14 2009 From: rms at gnu.org (Richard M Stallman) Date: Mon, 02 Feb 2009 11:43:14 -0500 Subject: [Python-mode] replacing python.el In-Reply-To: <87vdrt6flh.fsf@liv.ac.uk> (message from Dave Love on Sun, 01 Feb 2009 20:56:42 +0000) References: <87vdrt6flh.fsf@liv.ac.uk> Message-ID: However, I don't think it's worth worrying about it on the basis of someone who's so far quoted some duplicated keybindings, and a Fixme comment that was clearly mine, as evidence of all this copied code. If Emacs developers are worried, please contact me more privately. Those facts give us no reason to be concerned legally about your code. I also have no opinion about whether we would prefer to use python-mode.el, python.el, or some combination of the two. (I have never used either one, since I don't know Python.) That question is up to the Emacs maintainers, Stefan and Yidong. From monnier at iro.umontreal.ca Sun Feb 1 23:05:04 2009 From: monnier at iro.umontreal.ca (Stefan Monnier) Date: Sun, 01 Feb 2009 17:05:04 -0500 Subject: [Python-mode] replacing python.el In-Reply-To: <49855570.3080901@comcast.net> (Beverley Eyre's message of "Sat, 31 Jan 2009 23:55:28 -0800") References: <4980316B.7080503@online.de> <49855570.3080901@comcast.net> Message-ID: >> Since Andreas R?hler is unwilling to sign legal papers for his >> code in python.el, we cannot use it in Emacs. >> >> Would anyone like to implement for python-mode.el whatever >> nice features python.el may have? Barry, could you make a TODO list? > I didn't know any of Andreas' code was in Python.el. Was that some of the > stuff that Dave.....ah... took from python-mode.el? Dave is usually pretty anal about copyright, so I'd be very surprised he copied code like that without mentioning it very clearly. Much more likely is a typo in the above message. Stefan From monnier at iro.umontreal.ca Sun Feb 1 23:03:45 2009 From: monnier at iro.umontreal.ca (Stefan Monnier) Date: Sun, 01 Feb 2009 17:03:45 -0500 Subject: [Python-mode] replacing python.el In-Reply-To: <87wsc96fu1.fsf@liv.ac.uk> (Dave Love's message of "Sun, 01 Feb 2009 20:51:34 +0000") References: <4980316B.7080503@online.de> <87wsc96fu1.fsf@liv.ac.uk> Message-ID: >> Emacs includes python.el, written by Dave Love, about which there is >> no legal problem. > Indeed, and I don't understand what other problem there is with it, > other than maintenance. Why does it need to be replaced with > python-mode.el, even if that was properly assigned? Maintenance is pretty significant problem, actually. The other problem is that all the Python coders I know install python-mode.el rather than use python.el. I don't know if it's representative, but if that's the case, then our users would be better served with python-mode.el included in Emacs. > The only other worthwhile feature I know of sort-of from python-mode.el > is related to something called pdbtrack (?). My commentary explains > that part of the functionality already exists, and something more > general than the rest should be a general feature in GUD. (The > Python-specifics are already there.) It's not difficult to restructure > GUD -- or wasn't when I hacked it originally -- and it's not clean to > make an add-on, which is why it's not in python.el. I know there isn't > interest in abstractions like that, but I didn't want to preempt a > possible change of opinion. Yes, that sounds very good. But someone has to make this change to gud.el. Feel free to submit your patches here. Stefan From monnier at iro.umontreal.ca Sun Feb 1 22:57:56 2009 From: monnier at iro.umontreal.ca (Stefan Monnier) Date: Sun, 01 Feb 2009 16:57:56 -0500 Subject: [Python-mode] replacing python.el In-Reply-To: <6000FD22-0346-46C8-9696-15F54410B64B@python.org> (Barry Warsaw's message of "Sun, 1 Feb 2009 07:33:15 -0500") References: <4980316B.7080503@online.de> <6000FD22-0346-46C8-9696-15F54410B64B@python.org> Message-ID: > I had hoped that it would be possible to merge python-mode.el and python.el > and reduce the confusion and inconvenience of Python X/Emacs users. > Andreas's opinion is that that is technically impossible and I believe it > is Dave's opinion that it will be practically impossible from a legal > perspective. If that's the case, then so be it; we will continue to > develop and maintain python-mode.el as an alternative and XEmacs will > likely include our version in its distribution. Emacs users will have to > find it if they are looking for an alternative, but once they do, it should > work just fine for them. > python-mode.el is now GPLv3. I'm glad to hear it's now GPLv3. From Emacs's point of view, we'd like to see the two converge, but this seems only possible if python-mode.el can be included in Emacs which requires its code to be assigned to the FSF. If the copyright assignment is reasonably possible, then I see no reason why the two code bases can't converge (clearly half the code would be thrown out, and there may be some tricky political work to do to get keybindings aligned, etc...). Last time this was brought up, the general sentiment was that, if merging is too difficult, it might be preferable to switch wholesale to python-mode.el (and then maybe try to retrofit some of python.el's featureset). > It seems like python-mode.el will never be included in Emacs. Why is that? Too many contributors? Can't be tracked down? Won't sign papers? Stefan From barry at python.org Mon Feb 2 19:57:39 2009 From: barry at python.org (Barry Warsaw) Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2009 13:57:39 -0500 Subject: [Python-mode] replacing python.el In-Reply-To: References: <4980316B.7080503@online.de> <6000FD22-0346-46C8-9696-15F54410B64B@python.org> Message-ID: -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Feb 1, 2009, at 4:57 PM, Stefan Monnier wrote: >> It seems like python-mode.el will never be included in Emacs. > > Why is that? Too many contributors? Can't be tracked down? > Won't sign papers? Just pessimistic we can work out the legal details. I'm willing to do my part though. Barry -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (Darwin) iQCVAwUBSYdCI3EjvBPtnXfVAQLPTwP9GEKr+Y6DQtGNmEeBHxpcVSg9LqF8JXP0 M9HumrOd5eOUnADQSA3WHVPPWwZa/TMb8CpRsMk8JZHpzjKOpnichU1Bn1AymDbd wLhQGi4XKN7MtgR7vnZKlK3NRE39a8S6uicx+hcS0ukmBsddZEg0frp3pbV2LqVE jw3ahTdw6NI= =ZPSO -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From fbe2 at comcast.net Mon Feb 2 23:01:46 2009 From: fbe2 at comcast.net (Beverley Eyre) Date: Mon, 02 Feb 2009 14:01:46 -0800 Subject: [Python-mode] replacing python.el In-Reply-To: References: <4980316B.7080503@online.de> <6000FD22-0346-46C8-9696-15F54410B64B@python.org> Message-ID: <49876D4A.7020706@comcast.net> Legally, at this point I don't know the legal status of every bit of code in python-mode.el. Technically, any 'merge' depends on how we define the term. For me, the answer is yes, since I'm looking at this project as sort of an optimization exercise in both features and algorithms. On the level of code, no, I doubt it's technically possible to merge the two modes, or not in a major way. I was thinking that after a few days of relative calm I would post a listing of the features offered by each, just to have something concrete to look at. Bev On 02/02/2009 05:11 AM, Barry Warsaw wrote: > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 > > On Feb 1, 2009, at 10:42 AM, Jeff Kowalczyk wrote: > >> On Sun, 01 Feb 2009 07:33:15 -0500, Barry Warsaw wrote: >>> As Andreas pointed out, we have not yet merged his changes into python- >>> mode.el. >>> >>> I had hoped that it would be possible to merge python-mode.el and >>> python.el and reduce the confusion and inconvenience of Python X/Emacs >>> users. Andreas's opinion is that that is technically impossible and I >>> believe it is Dave's opinion that it will be practically impossible >>> from a legal perspective. >> >> If Andreas' changes were to remain unmerged, would the merger of >> python-mode.el and python.el still be regarded as technically and/or >> legally impossible? > > I will defer to Andreas and Bev since they've looked at this issue > most closely. > > Barry > > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- > Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (Darwin) > > iQCVAwUBSYbw8HEjvBPtnXfVAQL6CQP/dWgzfxYptW7BXcVmliK6ufZYMjHQ8Mna > Yi9bX3gJxFsh8A0XG2OmiydHoKxNHv3EMao3rVoZHA3xcpOAtPfAGxdFbOoRJx+Q > idw8j3Z3A7lFO2S8zxQqaRFAliohhh1QNCpPS9iVxWkiTkK+0jyv55EuRe8TV2sq > +vmMDu0FPQk= > =s2L0 > -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- > _______________________________________________ > Python-mode mailing list > Python-mode at python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-mode > From fbe2 at comcast.net Mon Feb 2 23:22:37 2009 From: fbe2 at comcast.net (Beverley Eyre) Date: Mon, 02 Feb 2009 14:22:37 -0800 Subject: [Python-mode] replacing python.el In-Reply-To: <36F2670B-063A-4672-A5CC-D7822C37F5CC@python.org> References: <4980316B.7080503@online.de> <6000FD22-0346-46C8-9696-15F54410B64B@python.org> <49867E8A.6000402@comcast.net> <36F2670B-063A-4672-A5CC-D7822C37F5CC@python.org> Message-ID: <4987722D.7080203@comcast.net> I stand corrected. When I first read that my thought was that the 'not well maintained for Emacs' line was a gratuitous slam, since, IMO, python-mode.el worked fine. I had no idea what he was talking about. In fact, having used both now pretty extensively for a couple weeks (day on day off) I still prefer python-mode.el (but that could be for idiosyncratic reasons...). Anyway, if you don't see it as a derogatory comment, I retract that characterization. I'm sorry, Dave, for mischaracterizing your comments. Bev On 02/02/2009 06:10 AM, Barry Warsaw wrote: > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 > > On Feb 2, 2009, at 12:03 AM, Beverley Eyre wrote: > >> Also, if I can make a suggestion, Barry, I think it would be a good >> idea to ask Dave, or rms, or someone at GNU, to remove >> the derogatory comments about python-mode.el that are gratuitously >> included in the header of python.el. I don't know of any other emacs >> mode or library that has such comments, and they should be removed. > > Looking in Emacs 23, I just sent a message about this. I didn't see > anything derogatory, but I did ask for a few minor fixes to things > that are no longer accurate. Did you have some other text in mind? > > Barry > > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- > Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (Darwin) > > iQCVAwUBSYb+vXEjvBPtnXfVAQI7CAQAhIghnZHZq/QQHeMBy3DWSJhuXlgdosDz > kfRUdgxLs1gg2zXHLp5i75p8tcDf9P+qnTUS6aSIRX/LkQ1LdKL11gmAKO3vwbjW > rfLweaHcGh7mnMaxWn5WwirsSV8bR1fC2XUXJGNQjtXKbeKugeyAgUJtDZMSsHFe > mTlZg01zQK0= > =xttq > -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- > From barry at python.org Wed Feb 4 15:59:58 2009 From: barry at python.org (Barry Warsaw) Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2009 09:59:58 -0500 Subject: [Python-mode] SF tracker import Message-ID: -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 My colleague Graham Binns has completed the test import of the old python-mode SourceForge tracker into Launchpad. Please take a look here: https://bugs.staging.launchpad.net/python-mode Note that this is on the staging server, which means changes will be discarded roughly daily. IOW, don't put anything into this tracker that you care about! If the test import looks good however, I'll ask Graham to complete the real import. I spot checked a few items and they look okay to me, but please do take a look. Cheers, Barry -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (Darwin) iQCVAwUBSYmtbnEjvBPtnXfVAQLVqwP+PewzpLg2MMf5e0QA0u9K84hNkndbfZHG jqglxfgwsfgbFqy7AlB7BPGT5H4rhWMyQecHCMT8B2XXbHCgnOFEwveMRX4dusha EehdAVTcb9cXSSiOKaEhIu7Uwaowf1SogciF1AcfeyJJZ/sW4DU+rADc32Ao2+Kc RJ+sZ8KrAxo= =9GXG -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From lists at onerussian.com Wed Feb 4 17:05:05 2009 From: lists at onerussian.com (Yaroslav Halchenko) Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2009 11:05:05 -0500 Subject: [Python-mode] SF tracker import In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20090204160505.GF28667@washoe.rutgers.edu> I myself (since new to python-mode list and development in general) can't provide any objective information, besides that imported list looks great to me ;) unfortunately that bugs.staging.launchpad.net doesn't like me, so I was able to lookup only few bugs before I start getting "Sorry, there was a problem connecting to the Launchpad server. " ;-) as soon as migration happens I will try to 'connect' left-out bug reports in Debian to your bug tracking http://bugs.debian.org/python-mode On Wed, 04 Feb 2009, Barry Warsaw wrote: > My colleague Graham Binns has completed the test import of the old > python-mode SourceForge tracker into Launchpad. Please take a look > here: -- .-. =------------------------------ /v\ ----------------------------= Keep in touch // \\ (yoh@|www.)onerussian.com Yaroslav Halchenko /( )\ ICQ#: 60653192 Linux User ^^-^^ [175555] From barry at python.org Wed Feb 4 17:12:56 2009 From: barry at python.org (Barry Warsaw) Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2009 11:12:56 -0500 Subject: [Python-mode] SF tracker import In-Reply-To: <20090204160505.GF28667@washoe.rutgers.edu> References: <20090204160505.GF28667@washoe.rutgers.edu> Message-ID: <3EB4360F-91F5-42A0-86A3-9146EE15B8DB@python.org> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Feb 4, 2009, at 11:05 AM, Yaroslav Halchenko wrote: > I myself (since new to python-mode list and development in general) > can't provide any objective information, besides that imported list > looks great to me ;) > > unfortunately that bugs.staging.launchpad.net doesn't like me, so I > was > able to lookup only few bugs before I start getting > "Sorry, there was a problem connecting to the Launchpad server. " > > ;-) staging is a test server so besides getting wiped nightly, it's sometimes flaky as we bring it up and down to test things for production. > as soon as migration happens I will try to 'connect' left-out bug > reports in Debian to your bug tracking > > http://bugs.debian.org/python-mode Thanks! Barry -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (Darwin) iQCVAwUBSYm+iXEjvBPtnXfVAQJUuwP8C6/H9tVwyxHqWsnhGiTo7JYvTui/vg4k oze3nBusqrFU9aD2gN2zXfNEhaAcwE/v/ljglHGBRaZXIEnpylz3fj5S/tgWg7e8 mMyfCosPTrO6GorKFgAXNjy47RTuQE7PW27inozxVyGWmNHk+35x+0NNXuK8lGs4 yV6wpibpp7U= =Ny9h -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From andreas.roehler at online.de Wed Feb 4 17:35:10 2009 From: andreas.roehler at online.de (Andreas Roehler) Date: Wed, 04 Feb 2009 17:35:10 +0100 Subject: [Python-mode] SF tracker import In-Reply-To: <3EB4360F-91F5-42A0-86A3-9146EE15B8DB@python.org> References: <20090204160505.GF28667@washoe.rutgers.edu> <3EB4360F-91F5-42A0-86A3-9146EE15B8DB@python.org> Message-ID: <4989C3BE.1050601@online.de> Barry Warsaw wrote: > On Feb 4, 2009, at 11:05 AM, Yaroslav Halchenko wrote: > >> I myself (since new to python-mode list and development in general) >> can't provide any objective information, besides that imported list >> looks great to me ;) > >> unfortunately that bugs.staging.launchpad.net doesn't like me, so I was >> able to lookup only few bugs before I start getting >> "Sorry, there was a problem connecting to the Launchpad server. " > >> ;-) > > staging is a test server so besides getting wiped nightly, it's > sometimes flaky as we bring it up and down to test things for production. > >> as soon as migration happens I will try to 'connect' left-out bug >> reports in Debian to your bug tracking > >> http://bugs.debian.org/python-mode > > Thanks! > Barry > _______________________________________________ Me too got: The requested URL could not be retrieved Well as you said: test server. So we look forward. Thanks so far Andreas From andreas.roehler at online.de Wed Feb 4 22:30:49 2009 From: andreas.roehler at online.de (Andreas Roehler) Date: Wed, 04 Feb 2009 22:30:49 +0100 Subject: [Python-mode] bugfixes, `py-match-paren' now at "%" Message-ID: <498A0909.5010405@online.de> Hi, luckily announce some progress in python-mode.el (branch) `py-match-paren' now has a key: "%" as in lisp. `M-x py-match-paren-mode', jump between beg and end of block pressing "%". To the beginning first, if inside. Key "%" is not as suitable as in lisp, as its more often needed in python. If `py-match-paren-mode' is on with that key assigned, to insert a "%" literally do \C-q%. So the key is to change still probably, it's customizable. Also + (define-key py-mode-map "\C-\M-n" 'py-forward-block) + (define-key py-mode-map "\C-\M-p" 'py-backward-block) + (define-key py-mode-map "\C-ca" 'py-beginning-of-block) + (define-key py-mode-map "\C-ce" 'py-end-of-block) + (define-key py-mode-map "\C-c\C-u" 'py-goto-block-up) That means: took the keys from forward- backward-list in Lisp, as a list in python is a block for me. That experimentally so far. Must I deliver live-jackets? ;) `py-match-paren' and `py-backward-block' fixed. Andreas R?hler -- http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~a-roehler/python-mode/python-mode.el/files https://code.launchpad.net/s-x-emacs-werkstatt/ From lists at onerussian.com Wed Feb 4 23:10:43 2009 From: lists at onerussian.com (Yaroslav Halchenko) Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2009 17:10:43 -0500 Subject: [Python-mode] bugfixes, `py-match-paren' now at "%" In-Reply-To: <498A0909.5010405@online.de> References: <498A0909.5010405@online.de> Message-ID: <20090204221043.GN28667@washoe.rutgers.edu> pardon my ignorance, but was it done on purpose? in 356. By Andreas Roehler on 2009-01-29 ,--- | *$> git show 07985672d238301b27353913fc4aa509992571fb --stat | commit 07985672d238301b27353913fc4aa509992571fb | Author: Andreas Roehler | Date: Thu Jan 29 18:33:20 2009 +0100 | | py-match-paren | | README | 7 - | doctest-mode.el | 2061 ------------------------------------------------------- | pycomplete.el | 50 -- | pycomplete.py | 110 --- | python-mode.el | 86 +++ | 5 files changed, 86 insertions(+), 2228 deletions(-) `--- you've removed all those files in the root of the repository and left only python-mode (which you also modified in the same commit) and the website directory log message ("py-match-paren") is too concise to figure out what was intended ;-) P.S. git-bzr is cool -- now I can watch both branches (main and yours) in the same git repository ;-) On Wed, 04 Feb 2009, Andreas Roehler wrote: > Hi, > luckily announce some progress in python-mode.el (branch) > `py-match-paren' now has a key: "%" as in lisp. > `M-x py-match-paren-mode', jump between beg and > end of block pressing "%". To the beginning first, if > inside. -- .-. =------------------------------ /v\ ----------------------------= Keep in touch // \\ (yoh@|www.)onerussian.com Yaroslav Halchenko /( )\ ICQ#: 60653192 Linux User ^^-^^ [175555] From andreas.roehler at online.de Thu Feb 5 09:23:47 2009 From: andreas.roehler at online.de (Andreas Roehler) Date: Thu, 05 Feb 2009 09:23:47 +0100 Subject: [Python-mode] bugfixes, `py-match-paren' now at "%" In-Reply-To: <20090204221043.GN28667@washoe.rutgers.edu> References: <498A0909.5010405@online.de> <20090204221043.GN28667@washoe.rutgers.edu> Message-ID: <498AA213.5010708@online.de> Yaroslav Halchenko wrote: > pardon my ignorance, but was it done on purpose? > > in 356. By Andreas Roehler on 2009-01-29 > ,--- > | *$> git show 07985672d238301b27353913fc4aa509992571fb --stat > | commit 07985672d238301b27353913fc4aa509992571fb > | Author: Andreas Roehler > | Date: Thu Jan 29 18:33:20 2009 +0100 > | > | py-match-paren > | > | README | 7 - > | doctest-mode.el | 2061 ------------------------------------------------------- > | pycomplete.el | 50 -- > | pycomplete.py | 110 --- > | python-mode.el | 86 +++ > | 5 files changed, 86 insertions(+), 2228 deletions(-) > `--- > > you've removed all those files in the root of the repository and left only > python-mode (which you also modified in the same commit) and the website > directory > Hi Yaroslav , it's possible I've made an error. Hi Barry, could you please check the proceeding? My concern was not to keep outdated files in my branch, which may have been changed in the trunk. Therefore I delete files, not under development in the branch. Maybe this concern wasn't valid? Maybe another solution might have been better? Thanks Andreas > log message ("py-match-paren") is too concise to figure out what was > intended ;-) > > P.S. git-bzr is cool -- now I can watch both branches (main and yours) > in the same git repository ;-) > > On Wed, 04 Feb 2009, Andreas Roehler wrote: >> Hi, > >> luckily announce some progress in python-mode.el (branch) > >> `py-match-paren' now has a key: "%" as in lisp. > >> `M-x py-match-paren-mode', jump between beg and >> end of block pressing "%". To the beginning first, if >> inside. From andreas.roehler at online.de Fri Feb 6 11:41:19 2009 From: andreas.roehler at online.de (Andreas Roehler) Date: Fri, 06 Feb 2009 11:41:19 +0100 Subject: [Python-mode] bugfixes, `py-match-paren' now at "%" In-Reply-To: <20090204221043.GN28667@washoe.rutgers.edu> References: <498A0909.5010405@online.de> <20090204221043.GN28667@washoe.rutgers.edu> Message-ID: <498C13CF.90900@online.de> Yaroslav Halchenko wrote: > pardon my ignorance, but was it done on purpose? > > in 356. By Andreas Roehler on 2009-01-29 > ,--- > | *$> git show 07985672d238301b27353913fc4aa509992571fb --stat > | commit 07985672d238301b27353913fc4aa509992571fb > | Author: Andreas Roehler > | Date: Thu Jan 29 18:33:20 2009 +0100 > | > | py-match-paren > | > | README | 7 - > | doctest-mode.el | 2061 ------------------------------------------------------- > | pycomplete.el | 50 -- > | pycomplete.py | 110 --- > | python-mode.el | 86 +++ > | 5 files changed, 86 insertions(+), 2228 deletions(-) > `--- > > you've removed all those files in the root of the repository and left only > python-mode (which you also modified in the same commit) and the website > directory > > log message ("py-match-paren") is too concise to figure out what was > intended ;-) > > P.S. git-bzr is cool -- now I can watch both branches (main and yours) > in the same git repository ;-) > > On Wed, 04 Feb 2009, Andreas Roehler wrote: >> Hi, > >> luckily announce some progress in python-mode.el (branch) > >> `py-match-paren' now has a key: "%" as in lisp. > >> `M-x py-match-paren-mode', jump between beg and >> end of block pressing "%". To the beginning first, if >> inside. Hi Yaroslav, as Barry seems busy, are you able to combine pyton-mode.el from branch with remaining files from trunk? BTW as branch changes still, please tell about your deadlines, if you want to build it in. No bugs concerning my changing known so far. Thanks Andreas From lists at onerussian.com Fri Feb 6 14:33:16 2009 From: lists at onerussian.com (Yaroslav Halchenko) Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2009 08:33:16 -0500 Subject: [Python-mode] bugfixes, `py-match-paren' now at "%" In-Reply-To: <498C13CF.90900@online.de> References: <498A0909.5010405@online.de> <20090204221043.GN28667@washoe.rutgers.edu> <498C13CF.90900@online.de> Message-ID: <20090206133316.GZ20995@washoe.rutgers.edu> > as Barry seems busy, > are you able to combine pyton-mode.el from branch with remaining files from trunk? well -- now -- "not natively" since if I merge your branch I loose those removed files: $> git merge bzr/a-roehler Merging HEAD with bzr/a-roehler Removed README Removed doctest-mode.el Removed pycomplete.el Removed pycomplete.py Auto-merged python-mode.el may be in bzr there is a native way to handle merges on per-file basis but unfortunately I am not familiar with bzr. I can always though generate a patch of your modifications in python-mode and apply within my local copy of the master branch, but that is not "native" way and brings even more confusion. It might be that if you added those files back, bzr would be able to handle situation gracefully... git does apparently: So, I've added those files back within a local copy of your branch and then tried to merge your branch back into the master *$> git merge a-roehler Merging HEAD with a-roehler Auto-merged python-mode.el Merge made by recursive. python-mode.el | 374 ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++---- 1 files changed, 349 insertions(+), 25 deletions(-) > BTW as branch changes still, please tell about your deadlines, if you want to build it in. I am just a little person -- a maintainer of python-mode.el for Debian. I've already shipped current version into Debian, and would be happy to ship a new version with your modifications if they propagate reach master branch > No bugs concerning my changing known so far. nothing is good than a real field testing by hunders of users -- unexpected aspects of code functioning get unraveled ;-) -- .-. =------------------------------ /v\ ----------------------------= Keep in touch // \\ (yoh@|www.)onerussian.com Yaroslav Halchenko /( )\ ICQ#: 60653192 Linux User ^^-^^ [175555] From andreas.roehler at online.de Fri Feb 6 15:12:26 2009 From: andreas.roehler at online.de (Andreas Roehler) Date: Fri, 06 Feb 2009 15:12:26 +0100 Subject: [Python-mode] bugfixes, `py-match-paren' now at "%" In-Reply-To: <20090206133316.GZ20995@washoe.rutgers.edu> References: <498A0909.5010405@online.de> <20090204221043.GN28667@washoe.rutgers.edu> <498C13CF.90900@online.de> <20090206133316.GZ20995@washoe.rutgers.edu> Message-ID: <498C454A.20009@online.de> Yaroslav Halchenko wrote: >> as Barry seems busy, > >> are you able to combine pyton-mode.el from branch with remaining files from > trunk? well -- now -- "not natively" since if I merge your branch I > loose those removed files: > > $> git merge bzr/a-roehler > Merging HEAD with bzr/a-roehler > Removed README > Removed doctest-mode.el > Removed pycomplete.el > Removed pycomplete.py > Auto-merged python-mode.el > > may be in bzr there is a native way to handle merges on per-file basis > but unfortunately I am not familiar with bzr. > > I can always though generate a patch of your modifications in python-mode and > apply within my local copy of the master branch, but that is not "native" > way and brings even more confusion. > > It might be that if you added those files back, bzr would be able to > handle situation gracefully... OK. I'll try that. Have not that much experience with bazaar too... I'll wait some days still, maybe Barry has another idea. Cheers Andreas > git does apparently: > > So, I've added those files back within a local copy of your branch and then > tried to merge your branch back into the master > > *$> git merge a-roehler > Merging HEAD with a-roehler > Auto-merged python-mode.el > Merge made by recursive. > python-mode.el | 374 ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++---- > 1 files changed, 349 insertions(+), 25 deletions(-) > > >> BTW as branch changes still, please tell about your deadlines, if you want to build it in. > > I am just a little person -- a maintainer of python-mode.el for Debian. I've > already shipped current version into Debian, and would be happy to ship a new > version with your modifications if they propagate reach master > branch > >> No bugs concerning my changing known so far. > > nothing is good than a real field testing by hunders of users -- > unexpected aspects of code functioning get unraveled ;-) > From andreas.roehler at easy-emacs.de Fri Feb 6 20:41:02 2009 From: andreas.roehler at easy-emacs.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Andreas_R=F6hler?=) Date: Fri, 06 Feb 2009 20:41:02 +0100 Subject: [Python-mode] [CEDET-devel] python In-Reply-To: <200902041251.n14CpopA018380@projectile.siege-engine.com> References: <1deabbda0902030407k3e147d69rc81e39811334efc3@mail.gmail.com> <1deabbda0902030527r30aee79bu3b40f6c67dd00051@mail.gmail.com> <1deabbda0902040230w1e2ed85atd02d6ea1341663c9@mail.gmail.com> <200902041251.n14CpopA018380@projectile.siege-engine.com> Message-ID: <498C924E.6080109@easy-emacs.de> Eric M. Ludlam wrote: >>>> Vladimir Kazanov seems to think that: >>>> >>> Probably off topic, but just in case you are not aware of, *ropemacs* >>> supports Python very well under Emacs. >>> >>> Cheers, >>> poppyer >>> >> Well... Could you redirect me to a more suitable mailing list then? >> >> I do have and actively use pymacs/ropemacs, but wouldn`t it be better >> to use a single >> system for various languages? Consistency is important, after all. >> > [ ... ] > > Hi, > > I'm not that familiar with Python or pymacs/ropemacs. If these > tools provide some sort of file parsing, tag searching feature, then > they could plug into the back-end of the semantic parsing/searching > tools. > > The ideal is that any tool that can supply tagging information would > plug into CEDET. Then anyone who has a cool completion UI idea would > implement it on top of CEDET. In that way the users would get the > best of the tagging and their favorite completion UI styles instead of > having something slightly different for every language they use. > > If someone wants to tackle a project of improving the python support > I'd be happy to help. > > Eric > > Hi Eric, hi Vladimir, hi all, I'm taking part in developing python-mode.el, which has a mailing-list at its own, (see cc) its run by Barry Warsaw. python-mode.el is designed for all Emacsen. We take interest in any python-related topic with Emacs. So please feel free to cc or adress us with your questions, even if not python-mode.el specific. Thanks Andreas R?hler -- http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~a-roehler/python-mode/python-mode.el/files https://code.launchpad.net/s-x-emacs-werkstatt/ From eric at siege-engine.com Sat Feb 7 04:20:19 2009 From: eric at siege-engine.com (Eric M. Ludlam) Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2009 22:20:19 -0500 Subject: [Python-mode] [CEDET-devel] python In-Reply-To: <498C924E.6080109@easy-emacs.de> (message from =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Andreas_R=F6hler?= on Fri, 06 Feb 2009 20:41:02 +0100) References: <1deabbda0902030407k3e147d69rc81e39811334efc3@mail.gmail.com> <1deabbda0902030527r30aee79bu3b40f6c67dd00051@mail.gmail.com> <1deabbda0902040230w1e2ed85atd02d6ea1341663c9@mail.gmail.com> <200902041251.n14CpopA018380@projectile.siege-engine.com> <498C924E.6080109@easy-emacs.de> Message-ID: <200902070320.n173KJi0032154@projectile.siege-engine.com> >>> =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Andreas_R=F6hler?= seems to think that: >Eric M. Ludlam wrote: >>>>> Vladimir Kazanov seems to think that: >>>>> >>>> Probably off topic, but just in case you are not aware of, *ropemacs* >>>> supports Python very well under Emacs. >>>> >>>> Cheers, >>>> poppyer >>>> >>> Well... Could you redirect me to a more suitable mailing list then? >>> >>> I do have and actively use pymacs/ropemacs, but wouldn`t it be better >>> to use a single >>> system for various languages? Consistency is important, after all. >>> >> [ ... ] >> >> Hi, >> >> I'm not that familiar with Python or pymacs/ropemacs. If these >> tools provide some sort of file parsing, tag searching feature, then >> they could plug into the back-end of the semantic parsing/searching >> tools. >> >> The ideal is that any tool that can supply tagging information would >> plug into CEDET. Then anyone who has a cool completion UI idea would >> implement it on top of CEDET. In that way the users would get the >> best of the tagging and their favorite completion UI styles instead of >> having something slightly different for every language they use. >> >> If someone wants to tackle a project of improving the python support >> I'd be happy to help. >> >> Eric >> >> >Hi Eric, hi Vladimir, hi all, > >I'm taking part in developing python-mode.el, which has a mailing-list >at its own, (see cc) >its run by Barry Warsaw. > >python-mode.el is designed for all Emacsen. > >We take interest in any python-related topic with Emacs. > >So please feel free to cc or adress us with your questions, >even if not python-mode.el specific. [ ... ] Thanks for the info. I saw posts on emacs-devel about various issues with python-mode.el integration. CEDET is also due to be integrated Emacs at some future date. As I mentioned in the message you replied to, I don't use python, but am happy to help if someone working on CEDET/Python integration. There are a pretty wide range of features in CEDET that can be customized for different languages. Some of them are bound to be useful with Python. It just takes someone with the right domain knowledge to do it. Thanks Eric -- Eric Ludlam: eric at siege-engine.com Siege: www.siege-engine.com Emacs: http://cedet.sourceforge.net From barry at python.org Sat Feb 7 18:11:48 2009 From: barry at python.org (Barry Warsaw) Date: Sat, 7 Feb 2009 12:11:48 -0500 Subject: [Python-mode] [CEDET-devel] python In-Reply-To: <200902070320.n173KJi0032154@projectile.siege-engine.com> References: <1deabbda0902030407k3e147d69rc81e39811334efc3@mail.gmail.com> <1deabbda0902030527r30aee79bu3b40f6c67dd00051@mail.gmail.com> <1deabbda0902040230w1e2ed85atd02d6ea1341663c9@mail.gmail.com> <200902041251.n14CpopA018380@projectile.siege-engine.com> <498C924E.6080109@easy-emacs.de> <200902070320.n173KJi0032154@projectile.siege-engine.com> Message-ID: <63582997-6C34-4CE3-B711-C5E5F0956951@python.org> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Feb 6, 2009, at 10:20 PM, Eric M. Ludlam wrote: > Thanks for the info. I saw posts on emacs-devel about various issues > with python-mode.el integration. CEDET is also due to be integrated > Emacs at some future date. This is the first I've heard of CEDET though I've heard about some of the packages that make it up. Sounds very interesting. I'm sorry I don't have time to help develop code, but I will try to help with python-mode if possible. FWIW, python-mode.el 5.1.0 works just fine in Emacs. I use it 8+ hours a day. :) Barry -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (Darwin) iQCVAwUBSY3A1XEjvBPtnXfVAQI/BAP/RoJTgQsu0u8OSrjd00hElQT34vjViopA IKrcxm+cfy8b7IFeSBDtsBDP4YYEkz8+t1q9SZ5jafd2P+SfE2NfcSfsJnA7m+fQ xEz4CCF9NmNqGU46duhQg7dISorGDvtg2GnVxsoOs9rXZqhqH7OLzkLzPyuhohnH ZiUmkzeGTgI= =7N3p -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From barry at python.org Fri Feb 13 00:15:08 2009 From: barry at python.org (Barry Warsaw) Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2009 18:15:08 -0500 Subject: [Python-mode] Fwd: [Question #52687]: Please import python-mode tracker issues References: <20090212231220.30545.55250.launchpad@forster.canonical.com> Message-ID: -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Okay folks, all the python-mode issues should now be imported into Launchpad. Let us know if you notice any problems! Barry Begin forwarded message: > From: Graham Binns > Date: February 12, 2009 6:12:20 PM EST > To: barry at canonical.com > Subject: Re: [Question #52687]: Please import python-mode tracker > issues > Reply-To: question52687 at answers.launchpad.net > Message-Id: <20090212231220.30545.55250.launchpad at forster.canonical.com > > > > Your question #52687 on Launchpad itself changed: > https://answers.launchpad.net/launchpad/+question/52687 > > Graham Binns proposed the following answer: > All bugs should now be available at https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net > /python-mode. > > -- > If this answers your question, please go to the following page to > let us > know that it is solved: > https://answers.launchpad.net/launchpad/+question/52687/+confirm?answer_id=10 > > If you still need help, you can reply to this email or go to the > following page to enter your feedback: > https://answers.launchpad.net/launchpad/+question/52687 > > You received this question notification because you are a direct > subscriber of the question. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (Darwin) iQCVAwUBSZStfXEjvBPtnXfVAQIVkwQAmbgRLrNTH6fjMVJTiqGwUwSQtybtfjkk +3D/3II+tXhPY9d2YOww/HYNxEayXH+l9g3T2skvdEPDglHr+n60kW1PjHP3yG1S +3tQUnD8lcFGJdKWWm1kPeubWv8R6dpRZyulYzn+t1fEhobr+COEjqTRZlpEJQr+ Sh5AYxImZZk= =QtRm -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From ken.manheimer at gmail.com Thu Feb 19 21:21:00 2009 From: ken.manheimer at gmail.com (ken manheimer) Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2009 15:21:00 -0500 Subject: [Python-mode] replacing python.el In-Reply-To: <87wsc96fu1.fsf@liv.ac.uk> References: <4980316B.7080503@online.de> <87wsc96fu1.fsf@liv.ac.uk> Message-ID: <2cd46e7f0902191221p74b2061aqde130167dcff4cab@mail.gmail.com> sorry to be late to this python.el / python-mode.el convergence discussion. i'm concerned that what dave is describing would not preserve a crucial feature of pdbtrack, a feature that may be a reason some python developers choose python-mode.el over python.el. (it is for me.) On Sun, Feb 1, 2009 at 3:51 PM, Dave Love wrote: >[...] > Indeed, and I don't understand what other problem there is with it, > other than maintenance. Why does it need to be replaced with > python-mode.el, even if that was properly assigned? > > The only other worthwhile feature I know of sort-of from python-mode.el > is related to something called pdbtrack (?). My commentary explains > that part of the functionality already exists, and something more > general than the rest should be a general feature in GUD. (The > Python-specifics are already there.) It's not difficult to restructure > GUD -- or wasn't when I hacked it originally -- and it's not clean to > make an add-on, which is why it's not in python.el. I know there isn't > interest in abstractions like that, but I didn't want to preempt a > possible change of opinion. when i last looked at it, gud was a terrible fit for pdbtrack. if things haven't changed drastically, i'm concerned that what you're suggesting would sacrifice pdbtrack's dynamicism. this is all the more worrisome since i spent some time porting pdbtrack to python.el. it's currently there in emacs 23.0.90, but i see it's not in the emacs that comes w/recent ubuntu, emacs 22.2. here's the scoop, as best i can describe it. gud is oriented to being in control of debugging, in particular launching the program being debugged, or injecting a connection to the executive to start the debugging at an arbitrary point, or post-mortem. pdbtrack, on the other hand, simply works wherevever python's debugger, pdb, does. the pdbtrack code is responsible for detecting pdb activity within an (any) emacs shell and presenting, in a companion buffer, the source file and line that pdb is reporting as the current instruction. pdbtrack provides functionality for python's debugger, pdb, much like edebug does for emacs lisp, except that pdb can be triggered as a statement within the subject program's code, and not just taking over execution of the program (as gdb and edebug do), or run onerror/post-mortem. (pdb also provides those modes.) this turns out to be invaluable in general, and especially for long-running programs like servers, where you want debugging to trigger in very specific situations. with pdb, you just situate the debug-triggering code exactly in the situation (i wish i could do this with edebug), or as error handling around the situation. gud may have facilities that could be used to enhance pdbtrack, but i don't think it is designed to operate the way i describe above. plus, gud is massive, and i suspect it would take more emacs lisp code to craft gud python accommodations than all of pdbtrack (last i checked around 150 lines, including copious comments). i hope this is clear. as i said, pdbtrack porting to python.el has already been done, it just isn't in the currently released version. and, of course, there are other benefits to be had from a python-mode.el/python.el convergence, but i want to make sure this one, at least, is preserved. (i also think the pdbtrack approach would be appreciated for other dynamic languages, including emacs lisp.) -- ken http://myriadicity.net From barry at python.org Thu Feb 19 22:36:04 2009 From: barry at python.org (Barry Warsaw) Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2009 16:36:04 -0500 Subject: [Python-mode] replacing python.el In-Reply-To: <2cd46e7f0902191221p74b2061aqde130167dcff4cab@mail.gmail.com> References: <4980316B.7080503@online.de> <87wsc96fu1.fsf@liv.ac.uk> <2cd46e7f0902191221p74b2061aqde130167dcff4cab@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Feb 19, 2009, at 3:21 PM, ken manheimer wrote: > this is all the more worrisome since i spent some time porting > pdbtrack to python.el. it's currently there in emacs 23.0.90, but i > see it's not in the emacs that comes w/recent ubuntu, emacs 22.2. FWIW, on Intrepid (Ubuntu 8.10) if you install the emacs-snapshot package instead, you'll get Emacs 23. It does look like it contains something called pdbtrack, though I haven't tried it. (Hi Ken!) Barry -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (Darwin) iQCVAwUBSZ3QxXEjvBPtnXfVAQKjZQQAjxKcLicxnXBhq8kao7bwqZA84tcRz2fb 0755rVcviHehCzDf8l2xs5ey4brISrerd8eRGxWYSc1ezm6xBjZCz7FduGeZgxUt tAP72kUEygt0eF4BJtirUF6ZqadhXESQsJNvv3qsraauXbTSzf+IACgeGLiu2kmT UI7TLkaw4wA= =PslZ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From andreas.roehler at online.de Fri Feb 20 18:23:24 2009 From: andreas.roehler at online.de (Andreas Roehler) Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2009 18:23:24 +0100 Subject: [Python-mode] files added to branch again Message-ID: <499EE70C.80904@online.de> Hi Yaroslax, added README added doctest-mode.el added pycomplete.el added pycomplete.py again to python-mode branch hope it's more convenient for you that way. Cheers Andreas