From jshem at yaxenu.org  Sat Dec  2 21:33:26 2023
From: jshem at yaxenu.org (Julieta Shem)
Date: Sat, 02 Dec 2023 23:33:26 -0300
Subject: on writing a number as 2^s * q, where q is odd
References: <87sf4oysry.fsf@yaxenu.org>
 <86leagt1d9.fsf@williamsburg.bawden.org>
 <uk959k$185nm$1@dont-email.me>
 <86h6l3u55e.fsf@williamsburg.bawden.org>
Message-ID: <87sf4k2ex5.fsf@yaxenu.org>

Alan Bawden <alan at csail.mit.edu> writes:

> jak <nospam at please.ty> writes:
>
>    Alan Bawden ha scritto:
>    > Julieta Shem <jshem at yaxenu.org> writes:
>    >
>    >     How would you write this procedure?
>    >     def powers_of_2_in(n):
>    >         ...
>    >
>    > def powers_of_2_in(n):
>    >      return (n ^ (n - 1)).bit_count() - 1
>    >
>
>    Great solution, unfortunately the return value is not a tuple as in the
>    OP version. Maybe in this way?
>
>    def powers_of_2_inB(n):
>        bc = (n ^ (n - 1)).bit_count() - 1
>        return bc, int(n / (1 << bc))
>
> Good point.  I overlooked that.  I should have written:
>
> def powers_of_2_in(n):
>     bc = (n ^ (n - 1)).bit_count() - 1
>     return bc, n >> bc

That's pretty fancy and likely the fastest.  

I was pretty happy with a recursive version.  If I'm not mistaken,
nobody has offered a recursive version so far.  It's my favorite
actually because it seems to be the clearest one.

--8<---------------cut here---------------start------------->8---
def powers_of_2_in(n):
  if remainder(n, 2) != 0:
    return 0, n
  else:
    s, r = powers_of_2_in(n // 2)
    return 1 + s, r
--8<---------------cut here---------------end--------------->8---

From nospam at please.ty  Sat Dec  2 23:21:56 2023
From: nospam at please.ty (jak)
Date: Sun, 3 Dec 2023 05:21:56 +0100
Subject: on writing a number as 2^s * q, where q is odd
In-Reply-To: <87sf4k2ex5.fsf@yaxenu.org>
References: <87sf4oysry.fsf@yaxenu.org>
 <86leagt1d9.fsf@williamsburg.bawden.org> <uk959k$185nm$1@dont-email.me>
 <86h6l3u55e.fsf@williamsburg.bawden.org> <87sf4k2ex5.fsf@yaxenu.org>
Message-ID: <ukgvp3$2npse$1@dont-email.me>

Julieta Shem ha scritto:
> Alan Bawden <alan at csail.mit.edu> writes:
> 
>> jak <nospam at please.ty> writes:
>>
>>     Alan Bawden ha scritto:
>>     > Julieta Shem <jshem at yaxenu.org> writes:
>>     >
>>     >     How would you write this procedure?
>>     >     def powers_of_2_in(n):
>>     >         ...
>>     >
>>     > def powers_of_2_in(n):
>>     >      return (n ^ (n - 1)).bit_count() - 1
>>     >
>>
>>     Great solution, unfortunately the return value is not a tuple as in the
>>     OP version. Maybe in this way?
>>
>>     def powers_of_2_inB(n):
>>         bc = (n ^ (n - 1)).bit_count() - 1
>>         return bc, int(n / (1 << bc))
>>
>> Good point.  I overlooked that.  I should have written:
>>
>> def powers_of_2_in(n):
>>      bc = (n ^ (n - 1)).bit_count() - 1
>>      return bc, n >> bc
> 
> That's pretty fancy and likely the fastest.
> 
> I was pretty happy with a recursive version.  If I'm not mistaken,
> nobody has offered a recursive version so far.  It's my favorite
> actually because it seems to be the clearest one.
> 
> --8<---------------cut here---------------start------------->8---
> def powers_of_2_in(n):
>    if remainder(n, 2) != 0:
>      return 0, n
>    else:
>      s, r = powers_of_2_in(n // 2)
>      return 1 + s, r
> --8<---------------cut here---------------end--------------->8---
> 

for n = 0 your function get stack overflow

From jshem at yaxenu.org  Sun Dec  3 00:08:39 2023
From: jshem at yaxenu.org (Julieta Shem)
Date: Sun, 03 Dec 2023 02:08:39 -0300
Subject: on writing a number as 2^s * q, where q is odd
References: <87sf4oysry.fsf@yaxenu.org>
 <86leagt1d9.fsf@williamsburg.bawden.org>
 <uk959k$185nm$1@dont-email.me>
 <86h6l3u55e.fsf@williamsburg.bawden.org> <87sf4k2ex5.fsf@yaxenu.org>
 <ukgvp3$2npse$1@dont-email.me>
Message-ID: <87h6kz3maw.fsf@yaxenu.org>

jak <nospam at please.ty> writes:

[...]

>> --8<---------------cut here---------------start------------->8---
>> def powers_of_2_in(n):
>>    if remainder(n, 2) != 0:
>>      return 0, n
>>    else:
>>      s, r = powers_of_2_in(n // 2)
>>      return 1 + s, r
>> --8<---------------cut here---------------end--------------->8---
>
> for n = 0 your function get stack overflow

That's right.  Let's say ``assert n > 0'' before we say ``if''.

From nospam at please.ty  Sun Dec  3 01:26:11 2023
From: nospam at please.ty (jak)
Date: Sun, 3 Dec 2023 07:26:11 +0100
Subject: on writing a number as 2^s * q, where q is odd
In-Reply-To: <87h6kz3maw.fsf@yaxenu.org>
References: <87sf4oysry.fsf@yaxenu.org>
 <86leagt1d9.fsf@williamsburg.bawden.org> <uk959k$185nm$1@dont-email.me>
 <86h6l3u55e.fsf@williamsburg.bawden.org> <87sf4k2ex5.fsf@yaxenu.org>
 <ukgvp3$2npse$1@dont-email.me> <87h6kz3maw.fsf@yaxenu.org>
Message-ID: <ukh723$2ol5i$1@dont-email.me>

Julieta Shem ha scritto:
> jak <nospam at please.ty> writes:
> 
> [...]
> 
>>> --8<---------------cut here---------------start------------->8---
>>> def powers_of_2_in(n):
>>>     if remainder(n, 2) != 0:
>>>       return 0, n
>>>     else:
>>>       s, r = powers_of_2_in(n // 2)
>>>       return 1 + s, r
>>> --8<---------------cut here---------------end--------------->8---
>>
>> for n = 0 your function get stack overflow
> 
> That's right.  Let's say ``assert n > 0'' before we say ``if''.
> 

...or just:

...
     if n == 0 or remainder(n, 2) != 0:
...


From oscar.j.benjamin at gmail.com  Sun Dec  3 08:06:56 2023
From: oscar.j.benjamin at gmail.com (Oscar Benjamin)
Date: Sun, 3 Dec 2023 13:06:56 +0000
Subject: on writing a number as 2^s * q, where q is odd
In-Reply-To: <87sf4k2ex5.fsf@yaxenu.org>
References: <87sf4oysry.fsf@yaxenu.org>
 <86leagt1d9.fsf@williamsburg.bawden.org>
 <uk959k$185nm$1@dont-email.me> <86h6l3u55e.fsf@williamsburg.bawden.org>
 <87sf4k2ex5.fsf@yaxenu.org>
Message-ID: <CAHVvXxSMyRjXBaiqwfE9uQCm8RGaMKgmMFDts5eoAz8HVhPubg@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, 3 Dec 2023 at 10:25, Julieta Shem via Python-list
<python-list at python.org> wrote:
>
> Alan Bawden <alan at csail.mit.edu> writes:
> >
> > def powers_of_2_in(n):
> >     bc = (n ^ (n - 1)).bit_count() - 1
> >     return bc, n >> bc
>
> That's pretty fancy and likely the fastest.

It might be the fastest but it depends how big you expect n to be and
how many trailing zeros you expect. If n is a very large integer then
this does three large integer operations in (n^(n-1)).bit_count().
They are relatively fast operations but all linear in bit size. By
contrast a check like n & 1 is O(1) and half the time proves that no
further steps are necessary.

The mpmath library needs this exact operation and is generally
intended for the large n case so I checked how it is implemented
there:

https://github.com/mpmath/mpmath/blob/f13ea4dc925d522062ac734bd19a0a3cc23f9c04/mpmath/libmp/libmpf.py#L160-L177

That code is:

    # Strip trailing bits
    if not man & 1:
        t = trailtable[man & 255]
        if not t:
            while not man & 255:
                man >>= 8
                exp += 8
                bc -= 8
            t = trailtable[man & 255]
        man >>= t
        exp += t
        bc -= t

The trailtable variable is a pre-initialised list of shifts needed to
remove zeros from an 8-bit integer. The bc variable here is just
bc=man.bit_length() which is redundant but this code predates the
addition of the int.bit_length() method.

In principle this could use a large number of man>>=8 shifts which
would potentially be quadratic in the bit size of man. In practice the
probability of hitting the worst case is very low so the code is
instead optimised for the expected common case of large man with few
trailing zeros.

--
Oscar

From dom.grigonis at gmail.com  Sun Dec  3 21:29:41 2023
From: dom.grigonis at gmail.com (Dom Grigonis)
Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2023 04:29:41 +0200
Subject: Request: inspect: signature & getfullargspec & getcallargs
Message-ID: <A1BF355D-FF4C-4224-AFA0-AD5D9393849C@gmail.com>

Hello,

I have a request.

Would it be possible to include `follow_wrapper_chains` and `skip_bound_arg` arguments to higher level functions of `inspect` module?

Would exposing them, but setting defaults to what they currently are, be possible?

I sometimes need:
	* `getcallargs`, but without `bound_arg`
	* `getfullargspec` to `follow_wrapper_chains`
	* `signature` to include `bound_arg`.


Regards,
DG

From nospam at please.ty  Mon Dec  4 03:47:03 2023
From: nospam at please.ty (jak)
Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2023 09:47:03 +0100
Subject: on writing a number as 2^s * q, where q is odd
In-Reply-To: <mailman.322.1701608830.3828.python-list@python.org>
References: <87sf4oysry.fsf@yaxenu.org>
 <86leagt1d9.fsf@williamsburg.bawden.org> <uk959k$185nm$1@dont-email.me>
 <86h6l3u55e.fsf@williamsburg.bawden.org> <87sf4k2ex5.fsf@yaxenu.org>
 <CAHVvXxSMyRjXBaiqwfE9uQCm8RGaMKgmMFDts5eoAz8HVhPubg@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.322.1701608830.3828.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <ukk3m7$3bop7$1@dont-email.me>

Oscar Benjamin ha scritto:
> On Sun, 3 Dec 2023 at 10:25, Julieta Shem via Python-list
> <python-list at python.org> wrote:
>>
>> Alan Bawden <alan at csail.mit.edu> writes:
>>>
>>> def powers_of_2_in(n):
>>>      bc = (n ^ (n - 1)).bit_count() - 1
>>>      return bc, n >> bc
>>
>> That's pretty fancy and likely the fastest.
> 
> It might be the fastest but it depends how big you expect n to be and
> how many trailing zeros you expect. If n is a very large integer then
> this does three large integer operations in (n^(n-1)).bit_count().
> They are relatively fast operations but all linear in bit size. By
> contrast a check like n & 1 is O(1) and half the time proves that no
> further steps are necessary.
> 
> The mpmath library needs this exact operation and is generally
> intended for the large n case so I checked how it is implemented
> there:
> 
> https://github.com/mpmath/mpmath/blob/f13ea4dc925d522062ac734bd19a0a3cc23f9c04/mpmath/libmp/libmpf.py#L160-L177
> 
> That code is:
> 
>      # Strip trailing bits
>      if not man & 1:
>          t = trailtable[man & 255]
>          if not t:
>              while not man & 255:
>                  man >>= 8
>                  exp += 8
>                  bc -= 8
>              t = trailtable[man & 255]
>          man >>= t
>          exp += t
>          bc -= t
> 
> The trailtable variable is a pre-initialised list of shifts needed to
> remove zeros from an 8-bit integer. The bc variable here is just
> bc=man.bit_length() which is redundant but this code predates the
> addition of the int.bit_length() method.
> 
> In principle this could use a large number of man>>=8 shifts which
> would potentially be quadratic in the bit size of man. In practice the
> probability of hitting the worst case is very low so the code is
> instead optimised for the expected common case of large man with few
> trailing zeros.
> 
> --
> Oscar
> 

HI,
I would turn the question to you: how big do you expect the value to
manage?
In a 'big numbers' context or when you need to convert a large amount of
values at the same time, your comment is absolutely valid, it is less
valid if the values can be represented with 64 bits.
I'll try to imagine the worst case in 64 bit:

b64Max=0xFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF
i=1
while True:
     i *= 2
     if not i <= b64Max:
         break
     else:
         n=i
n
9223372036854775808

If we now use the function being discussed:

powers_of_2_in(n)
(63, 1)

we can see that the bit_count() method had to do 63 iterations to count
the bits. It probably had to find the highest bit first but what if it
had a simple algorithm inside like this:

def h_bit(val):
     tbits = 0
     bits = 64 // 2
     b64Max = 0xFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF
     while bits > 0:
         if (b64Max << bits) & val:
             val >>= bits
             tbits += bits
         bits //= 2
     return tbits

would only add 6 more iterations for values needing 64 bits (7
interactions for 128 bits, 3 if 8 bits)

If we use the library you suggest for a single value or a non-'big
numbers' value (e.g. 2048 bit) the initialization alone would be slower
than the function in question. The table you are talking about is
initialized in the following way:

trailtable = [trailing(n) for n in range(256)]

(it calls a function 256 times)

This is why I think that what you said is true but it depends a lot on
the context and to all this I would add that the best cases are much
greater than the worst cases.

e.g.:
powers_of_2_in(n + 1)
(0, 9223372036854775809)
powers_of_2_in(n - 1)
(0, 9223372036854775807)

(probably only 1 interaction)


From barry at barrys-emacs.org  Mon Dec  4 15:22:35 2023
From: barry at barrys-emacs.org (Barry Scott)
Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2023 20:22:35 +0000
Subject: Request: inspect: signature & getfullargspec & getcallargs
In-Reply-To: <A1BF355D-FF4C-4224-AFA0-AD5D9393849C@gmail.com>
References: <A1BF355D-FF4C-4224-AFA0-AD5D9393849C@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <F13E1DED-B184-4609-9A83-0ED6BD51BB8B@barrys-emacs.org>



> On 4 Dec 2023, at 02:29, Dom Grigonis via Python-list <python-list at python.org> wrote:
> 
> Hello,
> 
> I have a request.
> 
> Would it be possible to include `follow_wrapper_chains` and `skip_bound_arg` arguments to higher level functions of `inspect` module?
> 
> Would exposing them, but setting defaults to what they currently are, be possible?
> 
> I sometimes need:
> 	* `getcallargs`, but without `bound_arg`
> 	* `getfullargspec` to `follow_wrapper_chains`
> 	* `signature` to include `bound_arg`.

I suspect that you need to raise this as an idea on https://discuss.python.org/ to get the attention of the core devs.

Barry

> 
> 
> Regards,
> DG
> -- 
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
> 


From alan at csail.mit.edu  Tue Dec  5 00:33:56 2023
From: alan at csail.mit.edu (Alan Bawden)
Date: Tue, 05 Dec 2023 00:33:56 -0500
Subject: on writing a number as 2^s * q, where q is odd
References: <87sf4oysry.fsf@yaxenu.org>
 <86leagt1d9.fsf@williamsburg.bawden.org>
 <uk959k$185nm$1@dont-email.me>
 <86h6l3u55e.fsf@williamsburg.bawden.org> <87sf4k2ex5.fsf@yaxenu.org>
 <CAHVvXxSMyRjXBaiqwfE9uQCm8RGaMKgmMFDts5eoAz8HVhPubg@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.322.1701608830.3828.python-list@python.org>
 <ukk3m7$3bop7$1@dont-email.me>
Message-ID: <86cyvltdq3.fsf@williamsburg.bawden.org>

jak <nospam at please.ty> writes:

   Oscar Benjamin ha scritto:
   ...
   If we now use the function being discussed:

   powers_of_2_in(n)
   (63, 1)

   we can see that the bit_count() method had to do 63 iterations to count
   the bits....

I certainly hope that the bit_count method doesn't count bits by
iterating over them one-by-one.  You can count bits _much_ faster than
that.

You can count the bits in a 62-bit number as follows:

   def bit_count_62(n):
       n = (n - ((n >> 1) & 0o333333333333333333333)
              - ((n >> 2) & 0o111111111111111111111))
       n = (   (n & 0o307070707070707070707)
            + ((n & 0o070707070707070707070) >> 3))
       return n % 63

Then if you want to count the bits in arbitrarily large integers, you
iterate over them in N-bit chunks, for some N <= 62.  Your choice of N
will depend on how you represent your big integers.  Probably N is 56 or
48 or 32.

And why 62 bits?  Because the bit_count method is certainly written in
C, where every step in bit_count_62 would use 64-bit integers.

If you like this sort of stuff, check out the book "Hacker's Delight" by
Henry Warren.  See <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hacker%27s_Delight>.

- Alan

From nospam at please.ty  Tue Dec  5 06:09:57 2023
From: nospam at please.ty (jak)
Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2023 12:09:57 +0100
Subject: on writing a number as 2^s * q, where q is odd
In-Reply-To: <86cyvltdq3.fsf@williamsburg.bawden.org>
References: <87sf4oysry.fsf@yaxenu.org>
 <86leagt1d9.fsf@williamsburg.bawden.org> <uk959k$185nm$1@dont-email.me>
 <86h6l3u55e.fsf@williamsburg.bawden.org> <87sf4k2ex5.fsf@yaxenu.org>
 <CAHVvXxSMyRjXBaiqwfE9uQCm8RGaMKgmMFDts5eoAz8HVhPubg@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.322.1701608830.3828.python-list@python.org>
 <ukk3m7$3bop7$1@dont-email.me> <86cyvltdq3.fsf@williamsburg.bawden.org>
Message-ID: <ukn0e5$4iuk$1@dont-email.me>

Alan Bawden ha scritto:
> If you like this sort of stuff, check out the book "Hacker's Delight" by
> Henry Warren.  See<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hacker%27s_Delight>.

Thank you for your suggestion. Really interesting. Just for fun I tried
to port the function to 64 bit:

def bit_count_64(n):
        lt = n >> 62
        n &= (~(0x3f << 62)) & ((1 << 63) - 1)
        n = (n - ((n >> 1) & 0o333333333333333333333)
               - ((n >> 2) & 0o111111111111111111111))
        n = (   (n & 0o307070707070707070707)
             + ((n & 0o070707070707070707070) >> 3))
        return (n % 63) + (0, 1, 1, 2)[lt]

n=0xffffffffffffffff
bit_count_64(n)
64

n=0x3ffffffffffffffe
bit_count_64(n)
61

bit_count_64(1 << 63)
1

...in C it would have been simpler :^)


From cl at isbd.net  Tue Dec  5 09:37:15 2023
From: cl at isbd.net (Chris Green)
Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2023 14:37:15 +0000
Subject: How/where to store calibration values - written by program A,
 read by program B
Message-ID: <r5p34k-5li5.ln1@esprimo.zbmc.eu>

Is there a neat, pythonic way to store values which are 'sometimes'
changed?

My particular case at the moment is calibration values for ADC inputs
which are set by running a calibration program and used by lots of
programs which display the values or do calculations with them.

>From the program readability point of view it would be good to have a
Python module with the values in it but using a Python program to
write/update a Python module sounds a bit odd somehow.

I could simply write the values to a file (or a database) and I
suspect that this may be the best answer but it does make retrieving
the values different from getting all other (nearly) constant values.

Are there any Python modules aimed specifically at this sort of
requirement?

-- 
Chris Green
?

From python at mrabarnett.plus.com  Tue Dec  5 11:50:06 2023
From: python at mrabarnett.plus.com (MRAB)
Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2023 16:50:06 +0000
Subject: How/where to store calibration values - written by program A,
 read by program B
In-Reply-To: <r5p34k-5li5.ln1@esprimo.zbmc.eu>
References: <r5p34k-5li5.ln1@esprimo.zbmc.eu>
Message-ID: <459067d1-4ec4-4263-8be9-4101f525d4d1@mrabarnett.plus.com>

On 2023-12-05 14:37, Chris Green via Python-list wrote:
> Is there a neat, pythonic way to store values which are 'sometimes'
> changed?
> 
> My particular case at the moment is calibration values for ADC inputs
> which are set by running a calibration program and used by lots of
> programs which display the values or do calculations with them.
> 
>  From the program readability point of view it would be good to have a
> Python module with the values in it but using a Python program to
> write/update a Python module sounds a bit odd somehow.
> 
> I could simply write the values to a file (or a database) and I
> suspect that this may be the best answer but it does make retrieving
> the values different from getting all other (nearly) constant values.
> 
> Are there any Python modules aimed specifically at this sort of
> requirement?
> 
Some kind of key/value store sounds like the correct solution. I 
wouldn't go as far a database - that's overkill for a few calibration 
values.

I might suggest TOML, except that Python's tomllib (Python 3.11+) is 
read-only!

Personally, I'd go for lines of:

     key1: value1
     key2: value2

Simple to read, simple to write.


From mats at wichmann.us  Tue Dec  5 15:30:53 2023
From: mats at wichmann.us (Mats Wichmann)
Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2023 13:30:53 -0700
Subject: How/where to store calibration values - written by program A,
 read by program B
In-Reply-To: <r5p34k-5li5.ln1@esprimo.zbmc.eu>
References: <r5p34k-5li5.ln1@esprimo.zbmc.eu>
Message-ID: <491a7766-f477-4973-9e8f-8a35feac924a@wichmann.us>

On 12/5/23 07:37, Chris Green via Python-list wrote:
> Is there a neat, pythonic way to store values which are 'sometimes'
> changed?
> 
> My particular case at the moment is calibration values for ADC inputs
> which are set by running a calibration program and used by lots of
> programs which display the values or do calculations with them.
> 
>  From the program readability point of view it would be good to have a
> Python module with the values in it but using a Python program to
> write/update a Python module sounds a bit odd somehow.
> 
> I could simply write the values to a file (or a database) and I
> suspect that this may be the best answer but it does make retrieving
> the values different from getting all other (nearly) constant values.
> 
> Are there any Python modules aimed specifically at this sort of
> requirement?

A search term to look for is "data persistence"

there is lots of support at various levels - you can do simpler things 
with plain text (or binary), json data, or csv data, or configparser, or 
use pickles; if there's not a lot of values a dbapi database may, as 
already mentioned, be overkill.


From barry at barrys-emacs.org  Tue Dec  5 15:45:36 2023
From: barry at barrys-emacs.org (Barry Scott)
Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2023 20:45:36 +0000
Subject: How/where to store calibration values - written by program A,
 read by program B
In-Reply-To: <r5p34k-5li5.ln1@esprimo.zbmc.eu>
References: <r5p34k-5li5.ln1@esprimo.zbmc.eu>
Message-ID: <1D62AAD1-C652-4664-ADC7-2B9A92B49358@barrys-emacs.org>



> On 5 Dec 2023, at 14:37, Chris Green via Python-list <python-list at python.org> wrote:
> 
> Are there any Python modules aimed specifically at this sort of
> requirement?

I tend to use JSON for this type of thing.
Suggest that you use the options to pretty print the json that is saved so that a human can read it.

For example:
----
import json

config = {
    'key2': 42,
    'key1': 'value 1',
}

print(json.dumps(config, indent=4, separators=(', ', ': '), sort_keys=True))

----
% python $T/a.py
{
    "key1": "value 1",
    "key2": 42
}

Barry


From PythonList at DancesWithMice.info  Tue Dec  5 15:54:38 2023
From: PythonList at DancesWithMice.info (DL Neil)
Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2023 09:54:38 +1300
Subject: How/where to store calibration values - written by program A,
 read by program B
In-Reply-To: <r5p34k-5li5.ln1@esprimo.zbmc.eu>
References: <r5p34k-5li5.ln1@esprimo.zbmc.eu>
Message-ID: <fa46a76f-4600-4a62-9ad6-9f20ca02b5cf@DancesWithMice.info>

On 12/6/23 03:37, Chris Green via Python-list wrote:
> Is there a neat, pythonic way to store values which are 'sometimes'
> changed?
> 
> My particular case at the moment is calibration values for ADC inputs
> which are set by running a calibration program and used by lots of
> programs which display the values or do calculations with them.
> 
>  From the program readability point of view it would be good to have a
> Python module with the values in it but using a Python program to
> write/update a Python module sounds a bit odd somehow.
> 
> I could simply write the values to a file (or a database) and I
> suspect that this may be the best answer but it does make retrieving
> the values different from getting all other (nearly) constant values.
> 
> Are there any Python modules aimed specifically at this sort of
> requirement?

Another programming-term for these might be "environment variables". 
However, be aware that such also has a specific meaning at the Operating 
System level.

1 Sysops Environment Variables exist completely outside the code. Python 
interrogates the Sysops to fetch/set them. Can be problematic because 
only apply on single machine and are not part of change-control, VS, etc.

2 A .con file (in my tradition, likely still .uni type in MSFT) or 
similar, which contains the key:value pairs recommended elsewhere. There 
are formal .con and .uni (etc) formats. Most of the teams I've 
worked-with recently seem to settle on .JSON files which are 
very-conveniently structured as (read into/written from) a Python 
dictionary, and a single function-call interaction.

Word of warning/voice of [bitter] experience: ALWAYS *trumpet* any 
changes in these values AND output them (as you would any "assumptions" 
for a calculation) at the top of output reports. The trouble is that 
humans assume continuity but such an arrangement is NOT idempotent - 
which leads to complaints: "I ran it on Monday and got these results, 
but when I ran it again on Tuesday, the results changed"...

Yes there are Python libraries. Choose your method/format first, and 
then search - either Duckboards or straight from Pepi.

I have systems which use an DBMS for environment variables, but (a) only 
when there's a significant number, and (b) when the application is 
already connecting to the DBMS for processing [and maybe (c) because I 
know my way around such tools so they're 'easy']. Not recommended!

-- 
Regards =dn

From PythonList at DancesWithMice.info  Tue Dec  5 16:08:12 2023
From: PythonList at DancesWithMice.info (DL Neil)
Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2023 10:08:12 +1300
Subject: How/where to store calibration values - written by program A,
 read by program B
In-Reply-To: <fa46a76f-4600-4a62-9ad6-9f20ca02b5cf@DancesWithMice.info>
References: <r5p34k-5li5.ln1@esprimo.zbmc.eu>
 <fa46a76f-4600-4a62-9ad6-9f20ca02b5cf@DancesWithMice.info>
Message-ID: <3563e673-112d-4cfc-b30a-c5394d6c35ff@DancesWithMice.info>

Apologies: neglected suggested web.refs:

https://datagy.io/python-environment-variables/
https://pypi.org/project/json_environ/

-- 
Regards =dn

From list1 at tompassin.net  Tue Dec  5 18:56:14 2023
From: list1 at tompassin.net (Thomas Passin)
Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2023 18:56:14 -0500
Subject: How/where to store calibration values - written by program A,
 read by program B
In-Reply-To: <459067d1-4ec4-4263-8be9-4101f525d4d1@mrabarnett.plus.com>
References: <r5p34k-5li5.ln1@esprimo.zbmc.eu>
 <459067d1-4ec4-4263-8be9-4101f525d4d1@mrabarnett.plus.com>
Message-ID: <6ee95034-135f-474c-8f09-13deafa9f428@tompassin.net>

On 12/5/2023 11:50 AM, MRAB via Python-list wrote:
> On 2023-12-05 14:37, Chris Green via Python-list wrote:
>> Is there a neat, pythonic way to store values which are 'sometimes'
>> changed?
>>
>> My particular case at the moment is calibration values for ADC inputs
>> which are set by running a calibration program and used by lots of
>> programs which display the values or do calculations with them.
>>
>> ?From the program readability point of view it would be good to have a
>> Python module with the values in it but using a Python program to
>> write/update a Python module sounds a bit odd somehow.
>>
>> I could simply write the values to a file (or a database) and I
>> suspect that this may be the best answer but it does make retrieving
>> the values different from getting all other (nearly) constant values.
>>
>> Are there any Python modules aimed specifically at this sort of
>> requirement?
>>
> Some kind of key/value store sounds like the correct solution. I 
> wouldn't go as far a database - that's overkill for a few calibration 
> values.
> 
> I might suggest TOML, except that Python's tomllib (Python 3.11+) is 
> read-only!
> 
> Personally, I'd go for lines of:
> 
>  ??? key1: value1
>  ??? key2: value2
> 
> Simple to read, simple to write.

Just go with an .ini file. Simple, well-supported by the standard 
library. And it gives you key/value pairs.


From cl at isbd.net  Wed Dec  6 04:32:02 2023
From: cl at isbd.net (Chris Green)
Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2023 09:32:02 +0000
Subject: How/where to store calibration values - written by program A,
 read by program B
References: <r5p34k-5li5.ln1@esprimo.zbmc.eu>
 <459067d1-4ec4-4263-8be9-4101f525d4d1@mrabarnett.plus.com>
 <6ee95034-135f-474c-8f09-13deafa9f428@tompassin.net>
 <mailman.330.1701836673.3828.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <ilr54k-24m9.ln1@esprimo.zbmc.eu>

Thomas Passin <list1 at tompassin.net> wrote:
> On 12/5/2023 11:50 AM, MRAB via Python-list wrote:
> > On 2023-12-05 14:37, Chris Green via Python-list wrote:
> >> Is there a neat, pythonic way to store values which are 'sometimes'
> >> changed?
> >>
> >> My particular case at the moment is calibration values for ADC inputs
> >> which are set by running a calibration program and used by lots of
> >> programs which display the values or do calculations with them.
> >>
> >> ?From the program readability point of view it would be good to have a
> >> Python module with the values in it but using a Python program to
> >> write/update a Python module sounds a bit odd somehow.
> >>
> >> I could simply write the values to a file (or a database) and I
> >> suspect that this may be the best answer but it does make retrieving
> >> the values different from getting all other (nearly) constant values.
> >>
> >> Are there any Python modules aimed specifically at this sort of
> >> requirement?
> >>
> > Some kind of key/value store sounds like the correct solution. I 
> > wouldn't go as far a database - that's overkill for a few calibration 
> > values.
> > 
> > I might suggest TOML, except that Python's tomllib (Python 3.11+) is 
> > read-only!
> > 
> > Personally, I'd go for lines of:
> > 
> >  ??? key1: value1
> >  ??? key2: value2
> > 
> > Simple to read, simple to write.
> 
> Just go with an .ini file. Simple, well-supported by the standard 
> library. And it gives you key/value pairs.
> 
My requirement is *slightly* more complex than just key value pairs,
it has one level of hierarchy, e.g.:-

    KEY1:
      a: v1
      c: v3
      d: v4
    KEY2:
      a: v7
      b: v5
      d: v6

Different numbers of value pairs under each KEY.

-- 
Chris Green
?

From cl at isbd.net  Wed Dec  6 04:45:21 2023
From: cl at isbd.net (Chris Green)
Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2023 09:45:21 +0000
Subject: How/where to store calibration values - written by program A,
 read by program B
References: <r5p34k-5li5.ln1@esprimo.zbmc.eu> <87r0k05sw7.fsf@nightsong.com>
Message-ID: <hes54k-24m9.ln1@esprimo.zbmc.eu>

Paul Rubin <no.email at nospam.invalid> wrote:
> Chris Green <cl at isbd.net> writes:
> > I could simply write the values to a file (or a database) and I
> > suspect that this may be the best answer but it does make retrieving
> > the values different from getting all other (nearly) constant values.
> 
> I've used configparser for this, though its intention is files that are
> manually edited, rather than updated by a program.
> 
> You can also read and dump a json file or pickle file.  I prefer json to
> pickle for most purposes these days.
> 
> I don't like YAML and I don't like the proliferation of markup formats
> of this type.  So while I don't know exactly what TOML is, I figure it
> must be bad.
> 
> I sometimes use ast.literal_eval though it is Python specific.
> 
That's interesting, I'll add it to my armoury anyway. :-)


> Of course there is also sqlite but that is probably overkill.

It's what my current code uses but does feel a bit OTT and it isn't
particularly convenient to view when debugging. 

-- 
Chris Green
?

From cl at isbd.net  Wed Dec  6 04:48:45 2023
From: cl at isbd.net (Chris Green)
Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2023 09:48:45 +0000
Subject: How/where to store calibration values - written by program A,
 read by program B
References: <r5p34k-5li5.ln1@esprimo.zbmc.eu>
 <fa46a76f-4600-4a62-9ad6-9f20ca02b5cf@DancesWithMice.info>
 <3563e673-112d-4cfc-b30a-c5394d6c35ff@DancesWithMice.info>
 <mailman.329.1701810499.3828.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <tks54k-24m9.ln1@esprimo.zbmc.eu>

Thank you everyone for all the suggestions, I now have several
possibilities to follow up. :-)

-- 
Chris Green
?

From 2QdxY4RzWzUUiLuE at potatochowder.com  Wed Dec  6 05:40:50 2023
From: 2QdxY4RzWzUUiLuE at potatochowder.com (2QdxY4RzWzUUiLuE at potatochowder.com)
Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2023 05:40:50 -0500
Subject: How/where to store calibration values - written by program A,
 read by program B
In-Reply-To: <ilr54k-24m9.ln1@esprimo.zbmc.eu>
References: <r5p34k-5li5.ln1@esprimo.zbmc.eu>
 <459067d1-4ec4-4263-8be9-4101f525d4d1@mrabarnett.plus.com>
 <6ee95034-135f-474c-8f09-13deafa9f428@tompassin.net>
 <mailman.330.1701836673.3828.python-list@python.org>
 <ilr54k-24m9.ln1@esprimo.zbmc.eu>
Message-ID: <ZXBPsvZEuFccK4gB@anomaly>

On 2023-12-06 at 09:32:02 +0000,
Chris Green via Python-list <python-list at python.org> wrote:

> Thomas Passin <list1 at tompassin.net> wrote:

[...]

> > Just go with an .ini file. Simple, well-supported by the standard 
> > library. And it gives you key/value pairs.
> > 
> My requirement is *slightly* more complex than just key value pairs,
> it has one level of hierarchy, e.g.:-
> 
>     KEY1:
>       a: v1
>       c: v3
>       d: v4
>     KEY2:
>       a: v7
>       b: v5
>       d: v6
> 
> Different numbers of value pairs under each KEY.

INI files have sections.

See <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/INI_file#Sections>.

From barry at barrys-emacs.org  Wed Dec  6 06:35:04 2023
From: barry at barrys-emacs.org (Barry Scott)
Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2023 11:35:04 +0000
Subject: How/where to store calibration values - written by program A,
 read by program B
In-Reply-To: <ilr54k-24m9.ln1@esprimo.zbmc.eu>
References: <r5p34k-5li5.ln1@esprimo.zbmc.eu>
 <459067d1-4ec4-4263-8be9-4101f525d4d1@mrabarnett.plus.com>
 <6ee95034-135f-474c-8f09-13deafa9f428@tompassin.net>
 <mailman.330.1701836673.3828.python-list@python.org>
 <ilr54k-24m9.ln1@esprimo.zbmc.eu>
Message-ID: <B0F50A98-64C6-4B86-B809-44E3320E20D3@barrys-emacs.org>



> On 6 Dec 2023, at 09:32, Chris Green via Python-list <python-list at python.org> wrote:
> 
> My requirement is *slightly* more complex than just key value pairs,
> it has one level of hierarchy, e.g.:-
> 
>    KEY1:
>      a: v1
>      c: v3
>      d: v4
>    KEY2:
>      a: v7
>      b: v5
>      d: v6
> 
> Different numbers of value pairs under each KEY.

JSON will allow you to nest dictionaries.

{
    'KEY1': {
        'a': v1
        'c': v3
        'd': v4
    }
    'KEY2': {
         'a': v7
         'b': v5
         'd': v6
    }
}

Personally I would not use .ini style these days as the format does not include type of the data.

Also I would not use the ast.literal_eval as it makes debugging errors in the data harder.

Barry


From dan at djph.net  Wed Dec  6 06:06:25 2023
From: dan at djph.net (Dan Purgert)
Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2023 11:06:25 -0000 (UTC)
Subject: How/where to store calibration values - written by program A,
 read by program B
References: <r5p34k-5li5.ln1@esprimo.zbmc.eu>
 <459067d1-4ec4-4263-8be9-4101f525d4d1@mrabarnett.plus.com>
 <6ee95034-135f-474c-8f09-13deafa9f428@tompassin.net>
 <mailman.330.1701836673.3828.python-list@python.org>
 <ilr54k-24m9.ln1@esprimo.zbmc.eu>
 <files-20231206105506@ram.dialup.fu-berlin.de>
Message-ID: <slrnun0lgq.hsj.dan@djph.net>

On 2023-12-06, Stefan Ram wrote:
> Chris Green <cl at isbd.net> writes:
>>    KEY1:
>>      a: v1
>>      c: v3
>>      d: v4
>>    KEY2:
>>      a: v7
>>      b: v5
>>      d: v6
>
>   That maps nicely to two directories with three files
>   (under an application-specific configuration directory).

Or an .ini file with two sections (although I don't think you can re-use
key-names in a single ini file)


-- 
|_|O|_|
|_|_|O| Github: https://github.com/dpurgert
|O|O|O| PGP: DDAB 23FB 19FA 7D85 1CC1  E067 6D65 70E5 4CE7 2860

From list1 at tompassin.net  Wed Dec  6 07:23:51 2023
From: list1 at tompassin.net (Thomas Passin)
Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2023 07:23:51 -0500
Subject: How/where to store calibration values - written by program A,
 read by program B
In-Reply-To: <B0F50A98-64C6-4B86-B809-44E3320E20D3@barrys-emacs.org>
References: <r5p34k-5li5.ln1@esprimo.zbmc.eu>
 <459067d1-4ec4-4263-8be9-4101f525d4d1@mrabarnett.plus.com>
 <6ee95034-135f-474c-8f09-13deafa9f428@tompassin.net>
 <mailman.330.1701836673.3828.python-list@python.org>
 <ilr54k-24m9.ln1@esprimo.zbmc.eu>
 <B0F50A98-64C6-4B86-B809-44E3320E20D3@barrys-emacs.org>
Message-ID: <dc8f37ec-16ee-4203-ba7f-d07aba493359@tompassin.net>

On 12/6/2023 6:35 AM, Barry Scott via Python-list wrote:
> 
> 
>> On 6 Dec 2023, at 09:32, Chris Green via Python-list <python-list at python.org> wrote:
>>
>> My requirement is *slightly* more complex than just key value pairs,
>> it has one level of hierarchy, e.g.:-
>>
>>     KEY1:
>>       a: v1
>>       c: v3
>>       d: v4
>>     KEY2:
>>       a: v7
>>       b: v5
>>       d: v6
>>
>> Different numbers of value pairs under each KEY.
> 
> JSON will allow you to nest dictionaries.
> 
> {
>      'KEY1': {
>          'a': v1
>          'c': v3
>          'd': v4
>      }
>      'KEY2': {
>           'a': v7
>           'b': v5
>           'd': v6
>      }
> }
> 
> Personally I would not use .ini style these days as the format does not include type of the data.

Neither does JSON.  Besides, JSON is more complicated than necessary 
here - in fact, your example isn't even legal JSON since lines are 
missing commas.

Fun fact - for at least some, maybe most, JSON files, using eval() on 
them is hugely faster than using Python's standard JSON library.  I 
learned this when I wanted to ingest a large browser bookmarks JSON 
file. It wouldn't matter for a much smaller file, of course.


From python at mrabarnett.plus.com  Wed Dec  6 13:12:20 2023
From: python at mrabarnett.plus.com (MRAB)
Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2023 18:12:20 +0000
Subject: How/where to store calibration values - written by program A,
 read by program B
In-Reply-To: <dc8f37ec-16ee-4203-ba7f-d07aba493359@tompassin.net>
References: <r5p34k-5li5.ln1@esprimo.zbmc.eu>
 <459067d1-4ec4-4263-8be9-4101f525d4d1@mrabarnett.plus.com>
 <6ee95034-135f-474c-8f09-13deafa9f428@tompassin.net>
 <mailman.330.1701836673.3828.python-list@python.org>
 <ilr54k-24m9.ln1@esprimo.zbmc.eu>
 <B0F50A98-64C6-4B86-B809-44E3320E20D3@barrys-emacs.org>
 <dc8f37ec-16ee-4203-ba7f-d07aba493359@tompassin.net>
Message-ID: <a0f98880-81f3-4779-acef-351dab68377f@mrabarnett.plus.com>

On 2023-12-06 12:23, Thomas Passin via Python-list wrote:
> On 12/6/2023 6:35 AM, Barry Scott via Python-list wrote:
>> 
>> 
>>> On 6 Dec 2023, at 09:32, Chris Green via Python-list <python-list at python.org> wrote:
>>>
>>> My requirement is *slightly* more complex than just key value pairs,
>>> it has one level of hierarchy, e.g.:-
>>>
>>>     KEY1:
>>>       a: v1
>>>       c: v3
>>>       d: v4
>>>     KEY2:
>>>       a: v7
>>>       b: v5
>>>       d: v6
>>>
>>> Different numbers of value pairs under each KEY.
>> 
>> JSON will allow you to nest dictionaries.
>> 
>> {
>>      'KEY1': {
>>          'a': v1
>>          'c': v3
>>          'd': v4
>>      }
>>      'KEY2': {
>>           'a': v7
>>           'b': v5
>>           'd': v6
>>      }
>> }
>> 
>> Personally I would not use .ini style these days as the format does not include type of the data.
> 
> Neither does JSON.  Besides, JSON is more complicated than necessary
> here - in fact, your example isn't even legal JSON since lines are
> missing commas.
> 
> Fun fact - for at least some, maybe most, JSON files, using eval() on
> them is hugely faster than using Python's standard JSON library.  I
> learned this when I wanted to ingest a large browser bookmarks JSON
> file. It wouldn't matter for a much smaller file, of course.
> 
It would be safer if you used literal_eval.

From PythonList at DancesWithMice.info  Wed Dec  6 15:11:55 2023
From: PythonList at DancesWithMice.info (dn)
Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2023 09:11:55 +1300
Subject: How/where to store calibration values - written by program A,
 read by program B
In-Reply-To: <a0f98880-81f3-4779-acef-351dab68377f@mrabarnett.plus.com>
References: <r5p34k-5li5.ln1@esprimo.zbmc.eu>
 <459067d1-4ec4-4263-8be9-4101f525d4d1@mrabarnett.plus.com>
 <6ee95034-135f-474c-8f09-13deafa9f428@tompassin.net>
 <mailman.330.1701836673.3828.python-list@python.org>
 <ilr54k-24m9.ln1@esprimo.zbmc.eu>
 <B0F50A98-64C6-4B86-B809-44E3320E20D3@barrys-emacs.org>
 <dc8f37ec-16ee-4203-ba7f-d07aba493359@tompassin.net>
 <a0f98880-81f3-4779-acef-351dab68377f@mrabarnett.plus.com>
Message-ID: <599b264e-28e8-4b07-ae4c-2c118b3ff0c0@DancesWithMice.info>

On 7/12/23 07:12, MRAB via Python-list wrote:
> On 2023-12-06 12:23, Thomas Passin via Python-list wrote:
>> On 12/6/2023 6:35 AM, Barry Scott via Python-list wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>> On 6 Dec 2023, at 09:32, Chris Green via Python-list 
>>>> <python-list at python.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> My requirement is *slightly* more complex than just key value pairs,
>>>> it has one level of hierarchy, e.g.:-
>>>>
>>>> ??? KEY1:
>>>> ????? a: v1
>>>> ????? c: v3
>>>> ????? d: v4
>>>> ??? KEY2:
>>>> ????? a: v7
>>>> ????? b: v5
>>>> ????? d: v6
>>>>
>>>> Different numbers of value pairs under each KEY.
>>>
>>> JSON will allow you to nest dictionaries.
>>>
>>> {
>>> ???? 'KEY1': {
>>> ???????? 'a': v1
>>> ???????? 'c': v3
>>> ???????? 'd': v4
>>> ???? }
>>> ???? 'KEY2': {
>>> ????????? 'a': v7
>>> ????????? 'b': v5
>>> ????????? 'd': v6
>>> ???? }
>>> }
>>>
>>> Personally I would not use .ini style these days as the format does 
>>> not include type of the data.
>>
>> Neither does JSON.? Besides, JSON is more complicated than necessary
>> here - in fact, your example isn't even legal JSON since lines are
>> missing commas.
>>
>> Fun fact - for at least some, maybe most, JSON files, using eval() on
>> them is hugely faster than using Python's standard JSON library.? I
>> learned this when I wanted to ingest a large browser bookmarks JSON
>> file. It wouldn't matter for a much smaller file, of course.
>>
> It would be safer if you used literal_eval.

Ah, memories of Python2...

Does this little hack still work?

What about True/False cf true/false?

-- 
Regards,
=dn

From python at mrabarnett.plus.com  Wed Dec  6 15:32:44 2023
From: python at mrabarnett.plus.com (MRAB)
Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2023 20:32:44 +0000
Subject: How/where to store calibration values - written by program A,
 read by program B
In-Reply-To: <599b264e-28e8-4b07-ae4c-2c118b3ff0c0@DancesWithMice.info>
References: <r5p34k-5li5.ln1@esprimo.zbmc.eu>
 <459067d1-4ec4-4263-8be9-4101f525d4d1@mrabarnett.plus.com>
 <6ee95034-135f-474c-8f09-13deafa9f428@tompassin.net>
 <mailman.330.1701836673.3828.python-list@python.org>
 <ilr54k-24m9.ln1@esprimo.zbmc.eu>
 <B0F50A98-64C6-4B86-B809-44E3320E20D3@barrys-emacs.org>
 <dc8f37ec-16ee-4203-ba7f-d07aba493359@tompassin.net>
 <a0f98880-81f3-4779-acef-351dab68377f@mrabarnett.plus.com>
 <599b264e-28e8-4b07-ae4c-2c118b3ff0c0@DancesWithMice.info>
Message-ID: <2fa9fe88-efed-469b-885b-a62c7ff53225@mrabarnett.plus.com>

On 2023-12-06 20:11, dn via Python-list wrote:
> On 7/12/23 07:12, MRAB via Python-list wrote:
>> On 2023-12-06 12:23, Thomas Passin via Python-list wrote:
>>> On 12/6/2023 6:35 AM, Barry Scott via Python-list wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> On 6 Dec 2023, at 09:32, Chris Green via Python-list 
>>>>> <python-list at python.org> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> My requirement is *slightly* more complex than just key value pairs,
>>>>> it has one level of hierarchy, e.g.:-
>>>>>
>>>>> ??? KEY1:
>>>>> ????? a: v1
>>>>> ????? c: v3
>>>>> ????? d: v4
>>>>> ??? KEY2:
>>>>> ????? a: v7
>>>>> ????? b: v5
>>>>> ????? d: v6
>>>>>
>>>>> Different numbers of value pairs under each KEY.
>>>>
>>>> JSON will allow you to nest dictionaries.
>>>>
>>>> {
>>>> ???? 'KEY1': {
>>>> ???????? 'a': v1
>>>> ???????? 'c': v3
>>>> ???????? 'd': v4
>>>> ???? }
>>>> ???? 'KEY2': {
>>>> ????????? 'a': v7
>>>> ????????? 'b': v5
>>>> ????????? 'd': v6
>>>> ???? }
>>>> }
>>>>
>>>> Personally I would not use .ini style these days as the format does 
>>>> not include type of the data.
>>>
>>> Neither does JSON.? Besides, JSON is more complicated than necessary
>>> here - in fact, your example isn't even legal JSON since lines are
>>> missing commas.
>>>
>>> Fun fact - for at least some, maybe most, JSON files, using eval() on
>>> them is hugely faster than using Python's standard JSON library.? I
>>> learned this when I wanted to ingest a large browser bookmarks JSON
>>> file. It wouldn't matter for a much smaller file, of course.
>>>
>> It would be safer if you used literal_eval.
> 
> Ah, memories of Python2...
> 
> Does this little hack still work?
> 
> What about True/False cf true/false?
> 
Nope, nor None cf null.

If it's numbers, strings, lists and dicts, it works.


From list1 at tompassin.net  Wed Dec  6 15:31:44 2023
From: list1 at tompassin.net (Thomas Passin)
Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2023 15:31:44 -0500
Subject: How/where to store calibration values - written by program A,
 read by program B
In-Reply-To: <a0f98880-81f3-4779-acef-351dab68377f@mrabarnett.plus.com>
References: <r5p34k-5li5.ln1@esprimo.zbmc.eu>
 <459067d1-4ec4-4263-8be9-4101f525d4d1@mrabarnett.plus.com>
 <6ee95034-135f-474c-8f09-13deafa9f428@tompassin.net>
 <mailman.330.1701836673.3828.python-list@python.org>
 <ilr54k-24m9.ln1@esprimo.zbmc.eu>
 <B0F50A98-64C6-4B86-B809-44E3320E20D3@barrys-emacs.org>
 <dc8f37ec-16ee-4203-ba7f-d07aba493359@tompassin.net>
 <a0f98880-81f3-4779-acef-351dab68377f@mrabarnett.plus.com>
Message-ID: <ac378c3c-1f95-4b4d-8492-3fc583b53d01@tompassin.net>

On 12/6/2023 1:12 PM, MRAB via Python-list wrote:
> On 2023-12-06 12:23, Thomas Passin via Python-list wrote:
>> On 12/6/2023 6:35 AM, Barry Scott via Python-list wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>> On 6 Dec 2023, at 09:32, Chris Green via Python-list 
>>>> <python-list at python.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> My requirement is *slightly* more complex than just key value pairs,
>>>> it has one level of hierarchy, e.g.:-
>>>>
>>>> ??? KEY1:
>>>> ????? a: v1
>>>> ????? c: v3
>>>> ????? d: v4
>>>> ??? KEY2:
>>>> ????? a: v7
>>>> ????? b: v5
>>>> ????? d: v6
>>>>
>>>> Different numbers of value pairs under each KEY.
>>>
>>> JSON will allow you to nest dictionaries.
>>>
>>> {
>>> ???? 'KEY1': {
>>> ???????? 'a': v1
>>> ???????? 'c': v3
>>> ???????? 'd': v4
>>> ???? }
>>> ???? 'KEY2': {
>>> ????????? 'a': v7
>>> ????????? 'b': v5
>>> ????????? 'd': v6
>>> ???? }
>>> }
>>>
>>> Personally I would not use .ini style these days as the format does 
>>> not include type of the data.
>>
>> Neither does JSON.? Besides, JSON is more complicated than necessary
>> here - in fact, your example isn't even legal JSON since lines are
>> missing commas.
>>
>> Fun fact - for at least some, maybe most, JSON files, using eval() on
>> them is hugely faster than using Python's standard JSON library.? I
>> learned this when I wanted to ingest a large browser bookmarks JSON
>> file. It wouldn't matter for a much smaller file, of course.
>>
> It would be safer if you used literal_eval.

He's going to be writing his own calibration data files, though, so it 
should be safe for his purposes.


From thomas at python.org  Thu Dec  7 19:55:03 2023
From: thomas at python.org (Thomas Wouters)
Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2023 01:55:03 +0100
Subject: Python 3.12.1 is now available
Message-ID: <CAPdQG2p7TF=0Q6wWvtrgeevg=ekcSWdwJ54VaZm_Vce3=R_tkQ@mail.gmail.com>

Python 3.12.1 is now available.

https://www.python.org/downloads/release/python-3121/
This is the first maintenance release of Python 3.12

Python 3.12 is the newest major release of the Python programming language,
and it contains many new features and optimizations. 3.12.1 is the latest
maintenance release, containing more than 400 bugfixes, build improvements
and documentation changes since 3.12.0.
<https://discuss.python.org/t/python-3-12-1-now-available/40603#major-new-features-of-the-312-series-compared-to-311-2>Major
new features of the 3.12 series, compared to 3.11
<https://discuss.python.org/t/python-3-12-1-now-available/40603#new-features-3>New
features

   - More flexible f-string parsing
   <https://docs.python.org/3.12/whatsnew/3.12.html#pep-701-syntactic-formalization-of-f-strings>,
   allowing many things previously disallowed (PEP 701
   <https://peps.python.org/pep-0701/>).
   - Support for the buffer protocol
   <https://docs.python.org/3.12/whatsnew/3.12.html#pep-688-making-the-buffer-protocol-accessible-in-python>
   in Python code (PEP 688 <https://peps.python.org/pep-0688/>).
   - A new debugging/profiling API
   <https://docs.python.org/3.12/whatsnew/3.12.html#pep-669-low-impact-monitoring-for-cpython>
   (PEP 669 <https://peps.python.org/pep-0669/>).
   - Support for isolated subinterpreters
   <https://docs.python.org/3.12/whatsnew/3.12.html#pep-684-a-per-interpreter-gil>
   with separate Global Interpreter Locks (PEP 684
   <https://peps.python.org/pep-0684>).
   - Even more improved error messages
   <https://docs.python.org/3.12/whatsnew/3.12.html#improved-error-messages>.
   More exceptions potentially caused by typos now make suggestions to the
   user.
   - Support for the Linux perf profiler
   <https://docs.python.org/3.12/howto/perf_profiling.html> to report
   Python function names in traces.
   - Many large and small performance improvements
   <https://docs.python.org/3.12/whatsnew/3.12.html#optimizations> (like PEP
   709 <https://peps.python.org/pep-0709/> and support for the BOLT binary
   optimizer), delivering an estimated 5% overall performance improvement.

<https://discuss.python.org/t/python-3-12-1-now-available/40603#type-annotations-4>Type
annotations

   - New type annotation syntax
   <https://docs.python.org/3.12/whatsnew/3.12.html#pep-695-type-parameter-syntax>
   for generic classes (PEP 695 <https://peps.python.org/pep-0695/>).
   - New override decorator
   <https://docs.python.org/3.12/whatsnew/3.12.html#pep-698-override-decorator-for-static-typing>
   for methods (PEP 698 <https://peps.python.org/pep-0698>).

<https://discuss.python.org/t/python-3-12-1-now-available/40603#deprecations-5>
Deprecations

   - The deprecated wstr and wstr_length members of the C implementation of
   unicode objects were removed, per PEP 623
   <https://peps.python.org/pep-0623/>.
   - In the unittest module, a number of long deprecated methods and
   classes were removed. (They had been deprecated since Python 3.1 or 3.2).
   - The deprecated smtpd and distutils modules have been removed (see PEP
   594 <https://peps.python.org/pep-0594/> and PEP 632
   <https://peps.python.org/pep-0632/>. The setuptools package continues to
   provide the distutils module.
   - A number of other old, broken and deprecated functions, classes and
   methods <https://docs.python.org/3.12/whatsnew/3.12.html#removed> have
   been removed.
   - Invalid backslash escape sequences in strings now warn with
   SyntaxWarning instead of DeprecationWarning, making them more visible.
   (They will become syntax errors in the future.)
   - The internal representation of integers has changed in preparation for
   performance enhancements. (This should not affect most users as it is an
   internal detail, but it may cause problems for Cython-generated code.)

For more details on the changes to Python 3.12, see What?s new in Python
3.12 <https://docs.python.org/dev/whatsnew/3.12.html>.
<https://discuss.python.org/t/python-3-12-1-now-available/40603#more-resources-6>More
resources

   - Online Documentation <https://docs.python.org/3.12/>.
   - PEP 693 <https://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0693/>, the Python 3.12
   Release Schedule.
   - Report bugs via GitHub Issues
   <https://github.com/python/cpython/issues>.
   - Help fund Python directly
   <https://www.python.org/psf/donations/python-dev/> or via GitHub Sponsors
   <https://github.com/sponsors/python>, and support the Python community
   <https://www.python.org/psf/donations/>.

<https://discuss.python.org/t/python-3-12-1-now-available/40603#we-hope-you-enjoy-the-new-releases-7>We
hope you enjoy the new releases!

Thanks to all of the many volunteers who help make Python Development and
these releases possible! Please consider supporting our efforts by
volunteering yourself or through organization contributions to the Python
Software Foundation <https://www.python.org/psf-landing/>.

Your release team,
Thomas Wouters
Ned Deily
Steve Dower
?ukasz Langa
-- 
Thomas Wouters <thomas at python.org>

From hjp-python at hjp.at  Sat Dec  9 04:59:24 2023
From: hjp-python at hjp.at (Peter J. Holzer)
Date: Sat, 9 Dec 2023 10:59:24 +0100
Subject: How/where to store calibration values - written by program A,
 read by program B
In-Reply-To: <dc8f37ec-16ee-4203-ba7f-d07aba493359@tompassin.net>
References: <r5p34k-5li5.ln1@esprimo.zbmc.eu>
 <459067d1-4ec4-4263-8be9-4101f525d4d1@mrabarnett.plus.com>
 <6ee95034-135f-474c-8f09-13deafa9f428@tompassin.net>
 <mailman.330.1701836673.3828.python-list@python.org>
 <ilr54k-24m9.ln1@esprimo.zbmc.eu>
 <B0F50A98-64C6-4B86-B809-44E3320E20D3@barrys-emacs.org>
 <dc8f37ec-16ee-4203-ba7f-d07aba493359@tompassin.net>
Message-ID: <20231209095924.ba5j3yxcx36kvw7j@hjp.at>

On 2023-12-06 07:23:51 -0500, Thomas Passin via Python-list wrote:
> On 12/6/2023 6:35 AM, Barry Scott via Python-list wrote:
> > Personally I would not use .ini style these days as the format does not include type of the data.
> 
> Neither does JSON.

Well, it distinguishes between some primitive types (string, number,
boolean, null) and provides two container types (dict/object,
list/array). As long as those types are sufficient, JSON includes them.
If you need anything else, you're on your own.

        hp

-- 
   _  | Peter J. Holzer    | Story must make more sense than reality.
|_|_) |                    |
| |   | hjp at hjp.at         |    -- Charles Stross, "Creative writing
__/   | http://www.hjp.at/ |       challenge!"
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From Gronicus at SGA.Ninja  Sat Dec  9 21:42:06 2023
From: Gronicus at SGA.Ninja (Steve GS)
Date: Sat, 9 Dec 2023 21:42:06 -0500
Subject: A problem with str VS int.
In-Reply-To: <2fa9fe88-efed-469b-885b-a62c7ff53225@mrabarnett.plus.com>
References: <r5p34k-5li5.ln1@esprimo.zbmc.eu>
 <459067d1-4ec4-4263-8be9-4101f525d4d1@mrabarnett.plus.com>
 <6ee95034-135f-474c-8f09-13deafa9f428@tompassin.net>
 <mailman.330.1701836673.3828.python-list@python.org>
 <ilr54k-24m9.ln1@esprimo.zbmc.eu>
 <B0F50A98-64C6-4B86-B809-44E3320E20D3@barrys-emacs.org>
 <dc8f37ec-16ee-4203-ba7f-d07aba493359@tompassin.net>
 <a0f98880-81f3-4779-acef-351dab68377f@mrabarnett.plus.com>
 <599b264e-28e8-4b07-ae4c-2c118b3ff0c0@DancesWithMice.info>
 <2fa9fe88-efed-469b-885b-a62c7ff53225@mrabarnett.plus.com>
Message-ID: <000401da2b12$7756e4c0$6604ae40$@SGA.Ninja>

 If I enter a one-digit input or a three-digit number, the code works but if I enter a two digit number, the if statement fails and the else condition prevails.

       tsReading = input("   Enter the " + Brand + " test strip reading: ")
        if tsReading == "": tsReading = "0"
        print(tsReading)
        if ((tsReading < "400") and (tsReading >= "0")):
            tsDose = GetDose(sReading)
            print(tsReading + "-" + tsDose)
            ValueFailed = False
        else:
            print("Enter valid sensor test strip Reading.")

I converted the variable to int along with the if statement comparison and it works as expected.
See if it fails for you...

Steve


From avi.e.gross at gmail.com  Sat Dec  9 23:23:10 2023
From: avi.e.gross at gmail.com (avi.e.gross at gmail.com)
Date: Sat, 9 Dec 2023 23:23:10 -0500
Subject: A problem with str VS int.
In-Reply-To: <000401da2b12$7756e4c0$6604ae40$@SGA.Ninja>
References: <r5p34k-5li5.ln1@esprimo.zbmc.eu>
 <459067d1-4ec4-4263-8be9-4101f525d4d1@mrabarnett.plus.com>
 <6ee95034-135f-474c-8f09-13deafa9f428@tompassin.net>
 <mailman.330.1701836673.3828.python-list@python.org>
 <ilr54k-24m9.ln1@esprimo.zbmc.eu>
 <B0F50A98-64C6-4B86-B809-44E3320E20D3@barrys-emacs.org>
 <dc8f37ec-16ee-4203-ba7f-d07aba493359@tompassin.net>
 <a0f98880-81f3-4779-acef-351dab68377f@mrabarnett.plus.com>
 <599b264e-28e8-4b07-ae4c-2c118b3ff0c0@DancesWithMice.info>
 <2fa9fe88-efed-469b-885b-a62c7ff53225@mrabarnett.plus.com>
 <000401da2b12$7756e4c0$6604ae40$@SGA.Ninja>
Message-ID: <000c01da2b20$9655e390$c301aab0$@gmail.com>

Steve,

I would say converting to a number, as you eventually did, is the way to go.

When you compare character strings, it will not be in numeric order. Compare
"80" with "400" and since 8 is greater than 4, the comparison is over and
"80" is greater then "40" even though 80 is way less than 400.

The only way to get the kind of comparison you want would be to pad with
zeroes so all your "numbers" are the same length. In that case, "080" would
indeed test as less than "400" but rarely does that seem a good idea. If the
user can enter any text, they might enter ".01" or "hello" or al kinds of
nonsense.

If you converted to numbers and tested whether it failed, ...

-----Original Message-----
From: Python-list <python-list-bounces+avi.e.gross=gmail.com at python.org> On
Behalf Of Steve GS via Python-list
Sent: Saturday, December 9, 2023 9:42 PM
To: python-list at python.org
Subject: A problem with str VS int.

 If I enter a one-digit input or a three-digit number, the code works but if
I enter a two digit number, the if statement fails and the else condition
prevails.

       tsReading = input("   Enter the " + Brand + " test strip reading: ")
        if tsReading == "": tsReading = "0"
        print(tsReading)
        if ((tsReading < "400") and (tsReading >= "0")):
            tsDose = GetDose(sReading)
            print(tsReading + "-" + tsDose)
            ValueFailed = False
        else:
            print("Enter valid sensor test strip Reading.")

I converted the variable to int along with the if statement comparison and
it works as expected.
See if it fails for you...

Steve

-- 
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list


From list1 at tompassin.net  Sun Dec 10 00:23:33 2023
From: list1 at tompassin.net (Thomas Passin)
Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2023 00:23:33 -0500
Subject: A problem with str VS int.
In-Reply-To: <000401da2b12$7756e4c0$6604ae40$@SGA.Ninja>
References: <r5p34k-5li5.ln1@esprimo.zbmc.eu>
 <459067d1-4ec4-4263-8be9-4101f525d4d1@mrabarnett.plus.com>
 <6ee95034-135f-474c-8f09-13deafa9f428@tompassin.net>
 <mailman.330.1701836673.3828.python-list@python.org>
 <ilr54k-24m9.ln1@esprimo.zbmc.eu>
 <B0F50A98-64C6-4B86-B809-44E3320E20D3@barrys-emacs.org>
 <dc8f37ec-16ee-4203-ba7f-d07aba493359@tompassin.net>
 <a0f98880-81f3-4779-acef-351dab68377f@mrabarnett.plus.com>
 <599b264e-28e8-4b07-ae4c-2c118b3ff0c0@DancesWithMice.info>
 <2fa9fe88-efed-469b-885b-a62c7ff53225@mrabarnett.plus.com>
 <000401da2b12$7756e4c0$6604ae40$@SGA.Ninja>
Message-ID: <ef2e23a3-6768-410d-b828-f273d0970fca@tompassin.net>

On 12/9/2023 9:42 PM, Steve GS via Python-list wrote:
>   If I enter a one-digit input or a three-digit number, the code works but if I enter a two digit number, the if statement fails and the else condition prevails.
> 
>         tsReading = input("   Enter the " + Brand + " test strip reading: ")
>          if tsReading == "": tsReading = "0"
>          print(tsReading)
>          if ((tsReading < "400") and (tsReading >= "0")):
>              tsDose = GetDose(sReading)
>              print(tsReading + "-" + tsDose)
>              ValueFailed = False
>          else:
>              print("Enter valid sensor test strip Reading.")
> 
> I converted the variable to int along with the if statement comparison and it works as expected.
> See if it fails for you...

I don't have to try it to know it will fail.  You think you are 
comparing numbers but you are comparing strings instead, which won't 
work as you expect.

You would do better to convert the inputs and limits to numbers, as well 
as the GetDose() function.  In a more realistic version, you would also 
have to make sure the user input is legal, either an int or a float, 
whichever you want to work with.

And along those lines (a more realistic version), it would be preferable 
to change the limits to be named constants, which will make the code 
easier to understand and change when it's revisited later.  Something 
like this:

UPPER = 400
LOWER = 0
# ...
if LOWER < value < UPPER:
     # .....


From PythonList at DancesWithMice.info  Sun Dec 10 00:53:11 2023
From: PythonList at DancesWithMice.info (dn)
Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2023 18:53:11 +1300
Subject: A problem with str VS int.
In-Reply-To: <000401da2b12$7756e4c0$6604ae40$@SGA.Ninja>
References: <r5p34k-5li5.ln1@esprimo.zbmc.eu>
 <459067d1-4ec4-4263-8be9-4101f525d4d1@mrabarnett.plus.com>
 <6ee95034-135f-474c-8f09-13deafa9f428@tompassin.net>
 <mailman.330.1701836673.3828.python-list@python.org>
 <ilr54k-24m9.ln1@esprimo.zbmc.eu>
 <B0F50A98-64C6-4B86-B809-44E3320E20D3@barrys-emacs.org>
 <dc8f37ec-16ee-4203-ba7f-d07aba493359@tompassin.net>
 <a0f98880-81f3-4779-acef-351dab68377f@mrabarnett.plus.com>
 <599b264e-28e8-4b07-ae4c-2c118b3ff0c0@DancesWithMice.info>
 <2fa9fe88-efed-469b-885b-a62c7ff53225@mrabarnett.plus.com>
 <000401da2b12$7756e4c0$6604ae40$@SGA.Ninja>
Message-ID: <d629ab06-8ff9-4394-aa5a-34ef1d0549ef@DancesWithMice.info>

On 10/12/23 15:42, Steve GS via Python-list wrote:
>   If I enter a one-digit input or a three-digit number, the code works but if I enter a two digit number, the if statement fails and the else condition prevails.
> 
>         tsReading = input("   Enter the " + Brand + " test strip reading: ")
>          if tsReading == "": tsReading = "0"
>          print(tsReading)
>          if ((tsReading < "400") and (tsReading >= "0")):
>              tsDose = GetDose(sReading)
>              print(tsReading + "-" + tsDose)
>              ValueFailed = False
>          else:
>              print("Enter valid sensor test strip Reading.")
> 
> I converted the variable to int along with the if statement comparison and it works as expected.
> See if it fails for you...

It works as expected (by Python)! This is how strings are compared - 
which is not the same as the apparently-equivalent numeric comparison.

Think about what you expect from the code below, and then take it for a 
spin (of mental agility):

values = [ 333, 33, 3, 222, 22, 2, 111, 11, 1, ]
print( sorted( values ) )
strings = [ "333", "33", "3", "222", "22", "2", "111", "11", "1", ]
print( sorted( strings ) )


The application's data appears numeric (GetDose() decides!). 
Accordingly, treat it so by wrapping int() or float() within a 
try-except (and adjusting thereafter...).


"But wait, there's more!"
(assuming implement as-above):

if 0 <= ts_reading < 400:

1 consistent 'direction' of the comparisons = readability
2 able to "chain" the comparisons = convenience
3 identifier is PEP-008-compliant = quality and style

-- 
Regards,
=dn

From cl at isbd.net  Mon Dec 11 10:16:38 2023
From: cl at isbd.net (Chris Green)
Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2023 15:16:38 +0000
Subject: How to enter multiple, similar, dictionaries?
Message-ID: <mnlj4k-qc751.ln1@esprimo.zbmc.eu>

Is there a way to abbreviate the following code somehow?

    lv = {'dev':'bbb', 'input':'1', 'name':'Leisure volts'}
    sv = {'dev':'bbb', 'input':'0', 'name':'Starter volts'}
    la = {'dev':'bbb', 'input':'2', 'name':'Leisure Amps'}
    sa = {'dev':'bbb', 'input':'3', 'name':'Starter Amps'}
    bv = {'dev':'adc2', 'input':0, 'name':'BowProp Volts'}

It's effectively a 'table' with columns named 'dev', 'input' and
'name' and I want to access the values of the table using the variable
name.

I could, obviously, store the data in a database (sqlite), I have some
similar data in a database already but the above sort of format in
Python source is more human readable and accessible.  I'm just looking
for a less laborious way of entering it really.

-- 
Chris Green
?

From cl at isbd.net  Mon Dec 11 10:57:48 2023
From: cl at isbd.net (Chris Green)
Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2023 15:57:48 +0000
Subject: How to enter multiple, similar, dictionaries?
References: <mnlj4k-qc751.ln1@esprimo.zbmc.eu>
Message-ID: <s4oj4k-hlc51.ln1@esprimo.zbmc.eu>

Chris Green <cl at isbd.net> wrote:
> Is there a way to abbreviate the following code somehow?
> 
>     lv = {'dev':'bbb', 'input':'1', 'name':'Leisure volts'}
>     sv = {'dev':'bbb', 'input':'0', 'name':'Starter volts'}
>     la = {'dev':'bbb', 'input':'2', 'name':'Leisure Amps'}
>     sa = {'dev':'bbb', 'input':'3', 'name':'Starter Amps'}
>     bv = {'dev':'adc2', 'input':0, 'name':'BowProp Volts'}
> 
> It's effectively a 'table' with columns named 'dev', 'input' and
> 'name' and I want to access the values of the table using the variable
> name.
> 
Or, more sensibly, make the above into a list (or maybe dictionary)
of dictionaries:-

adccfg = [
    {'abbr':'lv', 'dev':'bbb', 'input':'1', 'name':'Leisure volts'},
    {'abbr':'sv', 'dev':'bbb', 'input':'0', 'name':'Starter volts'},
    {'abbr':'la', 'dev':'bbb', 'input':'2', 'name':'Leisure Amps'},
    {'abbr':'sa', 'dev':'bbb', 'input':'3', 'name':'Starter Amps'},
    {'abbr':'bv', 'dev':'adc2', 'input':0, 'name':'BowProp Volts'}
]

This pickles nicely, I just want an easy way to enter the data!

> I could, obviously, store the data in a database (sqlite), I have some
> similar data in a database already but the above sort of format in
> Python source is more human readable and accessible.  I'm just looking
> for a less laborious way of entering it really.
> 
-- 
Chris Green
?

From grant.b.edwards at gmail.com  Mon Dec 11 12:30:41 2023
From: grant.b.edwards at gmail.com (Grant Edwards)
Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2023 09:30:41 -0800 (PST)
Subject: How to enter multiple, similar, dictionaries?
References: <mnlj4k-qc751.ln1@esprimo.zbmc.eu>
Message-ID: <65774741.c80a0220.cbe6e.e1eb@mx.google.com>

On 2023-12-11, Chris Green via Python-list <python-list at python.org> wrote:
> Is there a way to abbreviate the following code somehow?
>
>     lv = {'dev':'bbb', 'input':'1', 'name':'Leisure volts'}
>     sv = {'dev':'bbb', 'input':'0', 'name':'Starter volts'}
>     la = {'dev':'bbb', 'input':'2', 'name':'Leisure Amps'}
>     sa = {'dev':'bbb', 'input':'3', 'name':'Starter Amps'}
>     bv = {'dev':'adc2', 'input':0, 'name':'BowProp Volts'}
>
> It's effectively a 'table' with columns named 'dev', 'input' and
> 'name' and I want to access the values of the table using the variable
> name.

Named tuples stored in a dictionary or list?

> I could, obviously, store the data in a database (sqlite), I have some
> similar data in a database already but the above sort of format in
> Python source is more human readable and accessible.  I'm just looking
> for a less laborious way of entering it really.


From python at mrabarnett.plus.com  Mon Dec 11 12:57:58 2023
From: python at mrabarnett.plus.com (MRAB)
Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2023 17:57:58 +0000
Subject: How to enter multiple, similar, dictionaries?
In-Reply-To: <s4oj4k-hlc51.ln1@esprimo.zbmc.eu>
References: <mnlj4k-qc751.ln1@esprimo.zbmc.eu>
 <s4oj4k-hlc51.ln1@esprimo.zbmc.eu>
Message-ID: <05929036-2df1-47e3-9468-77feef3e9fe9@mrabarnett.plus.com>

On 2023-12-11 15:57, Chris Green via Python-list wrote:
> Chris Green <cl at isbd.net> wrote:
>> Is there a way to abbreviate the following code somehow?
>> 
>>     lv = {'dev':'bbb', 'input':'1', 'name':'Leisure volts'}
>>     sv = {'dev':'bbb', 'input':'0', 'name':'Starter volts'}
>>     la = {'dev':'bbb', 'input':'2', 'name':'Leisure Amps'}
>>     sa = {'dev':'bbb', 'input':'3', 'name':'Starter Amps'}
>>     bv = {'dev':'adc2', 'input':0, 'name':'BowProp Volts'}
>> 
>> It's effectively a 'table' with columns named 'dev', 'input' and
>> 'name' and I want to access the values of the table using the variable
>> name.
>> 
> Or, more sensibly, make the above into a list (or maybe dictionary)
> of dictionaries:-
> 
> adccfg = [
>      {'abbr':'lv', 'dev':'bbb', 'input':'1', 'name':'Leisure volts'},
>      {'abbr':'sv', 'dev':'bbb', 'input':'0', 'name':'Starter volts'},
>      {'abbr':'la', 'dev':'bbb', 'input':'2', 'name':'Leisure Amps'},
>      {'abbr':'sa', 'dev':'bbb', 'input':'3', 'name':'Starter Amps'},
>      {'abbr':'bv', 'dev':'adc2', 'input':0, 'name':'BowProp Volts'}
> ]
> 
> This pickles nicely, I just want an easy way to enter the data!
> 
>> I could, obviously, store the data in a database (sqlite), I have some
>> similar data in a database already but the above sort of format in
>> Python source is more human readable and accessible.  I'm just looking
>> for a less laborious way of entering it really.
>> 
How about:

keys = ['abbr', 'dev', 'input', 'name']
adccfg = [
     ('lv', 'bbb', '1', 'Leisure volts'),
     ('sv', 'bbb', '0', 'Starter volts'),
     ('la', 'bbb', '2', 'Leisure Amps'),
     ('sa', 'bbb', '3', 'Starter Amps'),
     ('bv', 'adc2', '0', 'BowProp Volts'),
]
adccfg = [dict(zip(keys, row)) for row in adccfg]

or even:

keys = ['abbr', 'dev', 'input', 'name']
adccfg = '''\
lv,bbb,1,Leisure volts
sv,bbb,0,Starter volts
la,bbb,2,Leisure Amps
sa,bbb,3,Starter Amps
bv,adc2,0,BowProp Volts
'''
adccfg = [dict(zip(keys, line.split(','))) for line in adccfg.splitlines()]


From jon+usenet at unequivocal.eu  Mon Dec 11 11:23:06 2023
From: jon+usenet at unequivocal.eu (Jon Ribbens)
Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2023 16:23:06 -0000 (UTC)
Subject: How to enter multiple, similar, dictionaries?
References: <mnlj4k-qc751.ln1@esprimo.zbmc.eu>
 <s4oj4k-hlc51.ln1@esprimo.zbmc.eu>
Message-ID: <slrnunedra.5oa.jon+usenet@raven.unequivocal.eu>

On 2023-12-11, Chris Green <cl at isbd.net> wrote:
> Chris Green <cl at isbd.net> wrote:
>> Is there a way to abbreviate the following code somehow?
>> 
>>     lv = {'dev':'bbb', 'input':'1', 'name':'Leisure volts'}
>>     sv = {'dev':'bbb', 'input':'0', 'name':'Starter volts'}
>>     la = {'dev':'bbb', 'input':'2', 'name':'Leisure Amps'}
>>     sa = {'dev':'bbb', 'input':'3', 'name':'Starter Amps'}
>>     bv = {'dev':'adc2', 'input':0, 'name':'BowProp Volts'}
>> 
>> It's effectively a 'table' with columns named 'dev', 'input' and
>> 'name' and I want to access the values of the table using the variable
>> name.
>> 
> Or, more sensibly, make the above into a list (or maybe dictionary)
> of dictionaries:-
>
> adccfg = [
>     {'abbr':'lv', 'dev':'bbb', 'input':'1', 'name':'Leisure volts'},
>     {'abbr':'sv', 'dev':'bbb', 'input':'0', 'name':'Starter volts'},
>     {'abbr':'la', 'dev':'bbb', 'input':'2', 'name':'Leisure Amps'},
>     {'abbr':'sa', 'dev':'bbb', 'input':'3', 'name':'Starter Amps'},
>     {'abbr':'bv', 'dev':'adc2', 'input':0, 'name':'BowProp Volts'}
> ]
>
> This pickles nicely, I just want an easy way to enter the data!

adccfg = [
    dict(zip(('abbr', 'dev', 'input', 'name'), row))
    for row in (
        ('lv', 'bbb', '1', 'Leisure volts'),
        ('sv', 'bbb', '0', 'Starter volts'),
        ('la', 'bbb', '2', 'Leisure Amps'),
        ('sa', 'bbb', '3', 'Starter Amps'),
        ('bv', 'adc2', 0, 'BowProp Volts'),
    )
]

From cl at isbd.net  Mon Dec 11 11:50:24 2023
From: cl at isbd.net (Chris Green)
Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2023 16:50:24 +0000
Subject: How to enter multiple, similar, dictionaries?
References: <mnlj4k-qc751.ln1@esprimo.zbmc.eu>
 <s4oj4k-hlc51.ln1@esprimo.zbmc.eu>
 <slrnunedra.5oa.jon+usenet@raven.unequivocal.eu>
Message-ID: <g7rj4k-nhi51.ln1@esprimo.zbmc.eu>

Jon Ribbens <jon+usenet at unequivocal.eu> wrote:
> On 2023-12-11, Chris Green <cl at isbd.net> wrote:
> > Chris Green <cl at isbd.net> wrote:
> >> Is there a way to abbreviate the following code somehow?
> >> 
> >>     lv = {'dev':'bbb', 'input':'1', 'name':'Leisure volts'}
> >>     sv = {'dev':'bbb', 'input':'0', 'name':'Starter volts'}
> >>     la = {'dev':'bbb', 'input':'2', 'name':'Leisure Amps'}
> >>     sa = {'dev':'bbb', 'input':'3', 'name':'Starter Amps'}
> >>     bv = {'dev':'adc2', 'input':0, 'name':'BowProp Volts'}
> >> 
> >> It's effectively a 'table' with columns named 'dev', 'input' and
> >> 'name' and I want to access the values of the table using the variable
> >> name.
> >> 
> > Or, more sensibly, make the above into a list (or maybe dictionary)
> > of dictionaries:-
> >
> > adccfg = [
> >     {'abbr':'lv', 'dev':'bbb', 'input':'1', 'name':'Leisure volts'},
> >     {'abbr':'sv', 'dev':'bbb', 'input':'0', 'name':'Starter volts'},
> >     {'abbr':'la', 'dev':'bbb', 'input':'2', 'name':'Leisure Amps'},
> >     {'abbr':'sa', 'dev':'bbb', 'input':'3', 'name':'Starter Amps'},
> >     {'abbr':'bv', 'dev':'adc2', 'input':0, 'name':'BowProp Volts'}
> > ]
> >
> > This pickles nicely, I just want an easy way to enter the data!
> 
> adccfg = [
>     dict(zip(('abbr', 'dev', 'input', 'name'), row))
>     for row in (
>         ('lv', 'bbb', '1', 'Leisure volts'),
>         ('sv', 'bbb', '0', 'Starter volts'),
>         ('la', 'bbb', '2', 'Leisure Amps'),
>         ('sa', 'bbb', '3', 'Starter Amps'),
>         ('bv', 'adc2', 0, 'BowProp Volts'),
>     )
> ]

Neat, I like that, thank you.

-- 
Chris Green
?

From piergiorgio.sartor.this.should.not.be.used at nexgo.REMOVETHIS.de  Mon Dec 11 14:05:16 2023
From: piergiorgio.sartor.this.should.not.be.used at nexgo.REMOVETHIS.de (Piergiorgio Sartor)
Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2023 20:05:16 +0100
Subject: How to enter multiple, similar, dictionaries?
In-Reply-To: <mnlj4k-qc751.ln1@esprimo.zbmc.eu>
References: <mnlj4k-qc751.ln1@esprimo.zbmc.eu>
Message-ID: <c43k4k-at3.ln1@lazy.lzy>

On 11/12/2023 16.16, Chris Green wrote:
> Is there a way to abbreviate the following code somehow?
> 
>      lv = {'dev':'bbb', 'input':'1', 'name':'Leisure volts'}
>      sv = {'dev':'bbb', 'input':'0', 'name':'Starter volts'}
>      la = {'dev':'bbb', 'input':'2', 'name':'Leisure Amps'}
>      sa = {'dev':'bbb', 'input':'3', 'name':'Starter Amps'}
>      bv = {'dev':'adc2', 'input':0, 'name':'BowProp Volts'}
> 
> It's effectively a 'table' with columns named 'dev', 'input' and
> 'name' and I want to access the values of the table using the variable
> name.
> 
> I could, obviously, store the data in a database (sqlite), I have some
> similar data in a database already but the above sort of format in
> Python source is more human readable and accessible.  I'm just looking
> for a less laborious way of entering it really.
> 

Maybe a dict of dicts:

tx = {lv: {'dev':'bbb', 'input':'1', 'name':'Leisure volts'},
       sv: {'dev':'bbb', 'input':'0', 'name':'Starter volts'},
       ...}

Might have one or two advantages.

bye,

-- 

piergiorgio


From Gronicus at SGA.Ninja  Tue Dec 12 03:22:22 2023
From: Gronicus at SGA.Ninja (Steve GS)
Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2023 03:22:22 -0500
Subject: IDLE editor suggestion.
In-Reply-To: <d629ab06-8ff9-4394-aa5a-34ef1d0549ef@DancesWithMice.info>
References: <r5p34k-5li5.ln1@esprimo.zbmc.eu>
 <459067d1-4ec4-4263-8be9-4101f525d4d1@mrabarnett.plus.com>
 <6ee95034-135f-474c-8f09-13deafa9f428@tompassin.net>
 <mailman.330.1701836673.3828.python-list@python.org>
 <ilr54k-24m9.ln1@esprimo.zbmc.eu>
 <B0F50A98-64C6-4B86-B809-44E3320E20D3@barrys-emacs.org>
 <dc8f37ec-16ee-4203-ba7f-d07aba493359@tompassin.net>
 <a0f98880-81f3-4779-acef-351dab68377f@mrabarnett.plus.com>
 <599b264e-28e8-4b07-ae4c-2c118b3ff0c0@DancesWithMice.info>
 <2fa9fe88-efed-469b-885b-a62c7ff53225@mrabarnett.plus.com>
 <000401da2b12$7756e4c0$6604ae40$@SGA.Ninja>
 <d629ab06-8ff9-4394-aa5a-34ef1d0549ef@DancesWithMice.info>
Message-ID: <009801da2cd4$55659320$0030b960$@SGA.Ninja>

Maybe this already exists but
I have never seen it in any
editor that I have used.

It would be nice to have a
pull-down text box that lists
all of the searches I have
used during this session. It
would make editing a lot
easier if I could select the
previous searches rather than
having to enter it every time.

If this is inappropriate to
post this here, please tell me
where to go.
Life should be so
complicated.....


From Gronicus at SGA.Ninja  Tue Dec 12 03:22:22 2023
From: Gronicus at SGA.Ninja (Steve GS)
Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2023 03:22:22 -0500
Subject: A problem with str VS int.
In-Reply-To: <d629ab06-8ff9-4394-aa5a-34ef1d0549ef@DancesWithMice.info>
References: <r5p34k-5li5.ln1@esprimo.zbmc.eu>
 <459067d1-4ec4-4263-8be9-4101f525d4d1@mrabarnett.plus.com>
 <6ee95034-135f-474c-8f09-13deafa9f428@tompassin.net>
 <mailman.330.1701836673.3828.python-list@python.org>
 <ilr54k-24m9.ln1@esprimo.zbmc.eu>
 <B0F50A98-64C6-4B86-B809-44E3320E20D3@barrys-emacs.org>
 <dc8f37ec-16ee-4203-ba7f-d07aba493359@tompassin.net>
 <a0f98880-81f3-4779-acef-351dab68377f@mrabarnett.plus.com>
 <599b264e-28e8-4b07-ae4c-2c118b3ff0c0@DancesWithMice.info>
 <2fa9fe88-efed-469b-885b-a62c7ff53225@mrabarnett.plus.com>
 <000401da2b12$7756e4c0$6604ae40$@SGA.Ninja>
 <d629ab06-8ff9-4394-aa5a-34ef1d0549ef@DancesWithMice.info>
Message-ID: <009901da2cd4$55d7dcf0$018796d0$@SGA.Ninja>

With all these suggestions on
how to fix it, no one seems to
answer why it fails only when
entering a two-digit number.
One and three work fine when
comparing with str values. It
is interesting that the
leading 0 on a two digit
worked.  Still, one digit and
three digit work but not two.

This is now more of a
curiosity as I did use the
integer comparisons.

SGA

-----Original Message-----
From: Python-list
<python-list-bounces+gronicus=
sga.ninja at python.org> On
Behalf Of dn via Python-list
Sent: Sunday, December 10,
2023 12:53 AM
To: python-list at python.org
Subject: Re: A problem with
str VS int.

On 10/12/23 15:42, Steve GS
via Python-list wrote:
>   If I enter a one-digit
input or a three-digit number,
the code works but if I enter
a two digit number, the if
statement fails and the else
condition prevails.
> 
>         tsReading = input("
Enter the " + Brand + " test
strip reading: ")
>          if tsReading == "":
tsReading = "0"
>          print(tsReading)
>          if ((tsReading <
"400") and (tsReading >=
"0")):
>              tsDose =
GetDose(sReading)
>              print(tsReading
+ "-" + tsDose)
>              ValueFailed =
False
>          else:
>              print("Enter
valid sensor test strip
Reading.")
> 
> I converted the variable to
int along with the if
statement comparison and it
works as expected.
> See if it fails for you...

It works as expected (by
Python)! This is how strings
are compared - which is not
the same as the
apparently-equivalent numeric
comparison.

Think about what you expect
from the code below, and then
take it for a spin (of mental
agility):

values = [ 333, 33, 3, 222,
22, 2, 111, 11, 1, ] print(
sorted( values ) ) strings = [
"333", "33", "3", "222", "22",
"2", "111", "11", "1", ]
print( sorted( strings ) )


The application's data appears
numeric (GetDose() decides!). 
Accordingly, treat it so by
wrapping int() or float()
within a try-except (and
adjusting thereafter...).


"But wait, there's more!"
(assuming implement as-above):

if 0 <= ts_reading < 400:

1 consistent 'direction' of
the comparisons = readability
2 able to "chain" the
comparisons = convenience
3 identifier is
PEP-008-compliant = quality
and style

-- 
Regards,
=dn
-- 
https://mail.python.org/mailma
n/listinfo/python-list


From roel at roelschroeven.net  Tue Dec 12 03:57:31 2023
From: roel at roelschroeven.net (Roel Schroeven)
Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2023 09:57:31 +0100
Subject: A problem with str VS int.
In-Reply-To: <009901da2cd4$55d7dcf0$018796d0$@SGA.Ninja>
References: <r5p34k-5li5.ln1@esprimo.zbmc.eu>
 <459067d1-4ec4-4263-8be9-4101f525d4d1@mrabarnett.plus.com>
 <6ee95034-135f-474c-8f09-13deafa9f428@tompassin.net>
 <mailman.330.1701836673.3828.python-list@python.org>
 <ilr54k-24m9.ln1@esprimo.zbmc.eu>
 <B0F50A98-64C6-4B86-B809-44E3320E20D3@barrys-emacs.org>
 <dc8f37ec-16ee-4203-ba7f-d07aba493359@tompassin.net>
 <a0f98880-81f3-4779-acef-351dab68377f@mrabarnett.plus.com>
 <599b264e-28e8-4b07-ae4c-2c118b3ff0c0@DancesWithMice.info>
 <2fa9fe88-efed-469b-885b-a62c7ff53225@mrabarnett.plus.com>
 <000401da2b12$7756e4c0$6604ae40$@SGA.Ninja>
 <d629ab06-8ff9-4394-aa5a-34ef1d0549ef@DancesWithMice.info>
 <009901da2cd4$55d7dcf0$018796d0$@SGA.Ninja>
Message-ID: <a5d9794b-021b-4922-a987-9460a746d37e@roelschroeven.net>

Op 12/12/2023 om 9:22 schreef Steve GS via Python-list:
> With all these suggestions on
> how to fix it, no one seems to
> answer why it fails only when
> entering a two-digit number.
> One and three work fine when
> comparing with str values. It
> is interesting that the
> leading 0 on a two digit
> worked.  Still, one digit and
> three digit work but not two.

Three-digit numbers work because you're comparing to another three-digit 
numbers. When two integer numbers have the same number of digits, their 
lexicographical ordering matches their numeric ordering.

One-digit numbers don't work fine:

 >>> "5" < "400"
False

even though we can construct cases where it seems as if they do:

 >>> "1" < "400"
True

Two-digit numbers sometimes seem to work:

 >>> "30" < "400"
True

But other times clearly don't work:

 >>> "50" < "400"
False

String comparison first looks at the first characters of both operands. 
If they are different (as in the examples above), their ordering is used 
regardless of all the other characters that come after, and regardless 
of the length of the string. Try working through some examples (make 
sure to pick examples with a wide variety of first digits) and you'll 
see why it sometimes seems to work, but very unreliably.

-- 
"In the old days, writers used to sit in front of a typewriter and stare out of
the window. Nowadays, because of the marvels of convergent technology, the thing
you type on and the window you stare out of are now the same thing.?
         -- Douglas Adams


From PythonList at DancesWithMice.info  Tue Dec 12 04:08:58 2023
From: PythonList at DancesWithMice.info (dn)
Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2023 22:08:58 +1300
Subject: A problem with str VS int.
In-Reply-To: <009901da2cd4$55d7dcf0$018796d0$@SGA.Ninja>
References: <r5p34k-5li5.ln1@esprimo.zbmc.eu>
 <459067d1-4ec4-4263-8be9-4101f525d4d1@mrabarnett.plus.com>
 <6ee95034-135f-474c-8f09-13deafa9f428@tompassin.net>
 <mailman.330.1701836673.3828.python-list@python.org>
 <ilr54k-24m9.ln1@esprimo.zbmc.eu>
 <B0F50A98-64C6-4B86-B809-44E3320E20D3@barrys-emacs.org>
 <dc8f37ec-16ee-4203-ba7f-d07aba493359@tompassin.net>
 <a0f98880-81f3-4779-acef-351dab68377f@mrabarnett.plus.com>
 <599b264e-28e8-4b07-ae4c-2c118b3ff0c0@DancesWithMice.info>
 <2fa9fe88-efed-469b-885b-a62c7ff53225@mrabarnett.plus.com>
 <000401da2b12$7756e4c0$6604ae40$@SGA.Ninja>
 <d629ab06-8ff9-4394-aa5a-34ef1d0549ef@DancesWithMice.info>
 <009901da2cd4$55d7dcf0$018796d0$@SGA.Ninja>
Message-ID: <8957f7a9-84f1-4b50-a8ce-5faf261e3ba0@DancesWithMice.info>

On 12/12/23 21:22, Steve GS wrote:
> With all these suggestions on
> how to fix it, no one seems to
> answer why it fails only when
> entering a two-digit number.
> One and three work fine when
> comparing with str values. It
> is interesting that the
> leading 0 on a two digit
> worked.  Still, one digit and
> three digit work but not two.
> 
> This is now more of a
> curiosity as I did use the
> integer comparisons.


Emphasis on the word "seems"!

Did you try running the code provided earlier? Did you notice that such 
illustrated what happens when using strings which appear as numbers, and 
showed how a three digit number (expressed as a string) may well precede 
a two- (or even a one-) digit number in the same form - and that the 
end-result of the sequence of integers is quite-different to the 
sequence of integer-values expressed as strings!

Why does this happen? Because of the way data is encoded. It is language 
independent. The definition of order or sequence is called "collation".

"Comparisons" establish relative-sequence. You will find some handy 
explanations of how comparisons work (eg equals or less-than) in the 
Python manual.

After working through those three steps, if there's something that's 
still mystifying, please refine the question...


Web.Refs:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collation
https://docs.python.org/3/reference/expressions.html?highlight=comparison#value-comparisons
https://docs.python.org/3/howto/sorting.html?highlight=sort


-- 
Regards,
=dn


From avi.e.gross at gmail.com  Tue Dec 12 10:35:55 2023
From: avi.e.gross at gmail.com (avi.e.gross at gmail.com)
Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2023 10:35:55 -0500
Subject: A problem with str VS int.
In-Reply-To: <a5d9794b-021b-4922-a987-9460a746d37e@roelschroeven.net>
References: <r5p34k-5li5.ln1@esprimo.zbmc.eu>
 <459067d1-4ec4-4263-8be9-4101f525d4d1@mrabarnett.plus.com>
 <6ee95034-135f-474c-8f09-13deafa9f428@tompassin.net>
 <mailman.330.1701836673.3828.python-list@python.org>
 <ilr54k-24m9.ln1@esprimo.zbmc.eu>
 <B0F50A98-64C6-4B86-B809-44E3320E20D3@barrys-emacs.org>
 <dc8f37ec-16ee-4203-ba7f-d07aba493359@tompassin.net>
 <a0f98880-81f3-4779-acef-351dab68377f@mrabarnett.plus.com>
 <599b264e-28e8-4b07-ae4c-2c118b3ff0c0@DancesWithMice.info>
 <2fa9fe88-efed-469b-885b-a62c7ff53225@mrabarnett.plus.com>
 <000401da2b12$7756e4c0$6604ae40$@SGA.Ninja>
 <d629ab06-8ff9-4394-aa5a-34ef1d0549ef@DancesWithMice.info>
 <009901da2cd4$55d7dcf0$018796d0$@SGA.Ninja>
 <a5d9794b-021b-4922-a987-9460a746d37e@roelschroeven.net>
Message-ID: <002601da2d10$e5a91100$b0fb3300$@gmail.com>

Roel,

I sent a similar reply in private to someone who may not be listening as their mind is made up. This points to a serious problem with people not testing hypotheses adequately.

Perhaps for homework, we can assign a request for a Python program that creates a random sample of quite a few digit strings of lengths from say 1 to 5 and compares then to each other as strings and then as integer representations and prints out whether the two methods match or not. Perhaps that might get them to discard the hypothesis and be a bity more open.

I still have had to deal with people who want to know why "two" is more than "three" and truly do not understand that just because a human sees "two" as a number, that does not mean anything about another human in whose language it may be "zwei" let alone a computer program not expecting character strings to mean anything unless programmed to examine them a certain way. And often, the same people cannot sole a simple puzzle like "SEND" + "MORE" == "MONEY"

-----Original Message-----
From: Python-list <python-list-bounces+avi.e.gross=gmail.com at python.org> On Behalf Of Roel Schroeven via Python-list
Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2023 3:58 AM
To: python-list at python.org
Subject: Re: A problem with str VS int.

Op 12/12/2023 om 9:22 schreef Steve GS via Python-list:
> With all these suggestions on
> how to fix it, no one seems to
> answer why it fails only when
> entering a two-digit number.
> One and three work fine when
> comparing with str values. It
> is interesting that the
> leading 0 on a two digit
> worked.  Still, one digit and
> three digit work but not two.

Three-digit numbers work because you're comparing to another three-digit 
numbers. When two integer numbers have the same number of digits, their 
lexicographical ordering matches their numeric ordering.

One-digit numbers don't work fine:

 >>> "5" < "400"
False

even though we can construct cases where it seems as if they do:

 >>> "1" < "400"
True

Two-digit numbers sometimes seem to work:

 >>> "30" < "400"
True

But other times clearly don't work:

 >>> "50" < "400"
False

String comparison first looks at the first characters of both operands. 
If they are different (as in the examples above), their ordering is used 
regardless of all the other characters that come after, and regardless 
of the length of the string. Try working through some examples (make 
sure to pick examples with a wide variety of first digits) and you'll 
see why it sometimes seems to work, but very unreliably.

-- 
"In the old days, writers used to sit in front of a typewriter and stare out of
the window. Nowadays, because of the marvels of convergent technology, the thing
you type on and the window you stare out of are now the same thing.?
         -- Douglas Adams

-- 
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list


From python at mrabarnett.plus.com  Tue Dec 12 11:13:16 2023
From: python at mrabarnett.plus.com (MRAB)
Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2023 16:13:16 +0000
Subject: IDLE editor suggestion.
In-Reply-To: <009801da2cd4$55659320$0030b960$@SGA.Ninja>
References: <r5p34k-5li5.ln1@esprimo.zbmc.eu>
 <459067d1-4ec4-4263-8be9-4101f525d4d1@mrabarnett.plus.com>
 <6ee95034-135f-474c-8f09-13deafa9f428@tompassin.net>
 <mailman.330.1701836673.3828.python-list@python.org>
 <ilr54k-24m9.ln1@esprimo.zbmc.eu>
 <B0F50A98-64C6-4B86-B809-44E3320E20D3@barrys-emacs.org>
 <dc8f37ec-16ee-4203-ba7f-d07aba493359@tompassin.net>
 <a0f98880-81f3-4779-acef-351dab68377f@mrabarnett.plus.com>
 <599b264e-28e8-4b07-ae4c-2c118b3ff0c0@DancesWithMice.info>
 <2fa9fe88-efed-469b-885b-a62c7ff53225@mrabarnett.plus.com>
 <000401da2b12$7756e4c0$6604ae40$@SGA.Ninja>
 <d629ab06-8ff9-4394-aa5a-34ef1d0549ef@DancesWithMice.info>
 <009801da2cd4$55659320$0030b960$@SGA.Ninja>
Message-ID: <78a16cef-9198-4d3b-bb7b-de42e1745b95@mrabarnett.plus.com>

On 2023-12-12 08:22, Steve GS via Python-list wrote:
> Maybe this already exists but
> I have never seen it in any
> editor that I have used.
> 
> It would be nice to have a
> pull-down text box that lists
> all of the searches I have
> used during this session. It
> would make editing a lot
> easier if I could select the
> previous searches rather than
> having to enter it every time.
> 
> If this is inappropriate to
> post this here, please tell me
> where to go.
> Life should be so
> complicated.....
> 
EditPad has this.

From friedrichromstedt at gmail.com  Tue Dec 12 12:51:42 2023
From: friedrichromstedt at gmail.com (Friedrich Romstedt)
Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2023 18:51:42 +0100
Subject: IDLE editor suggestion.
In-Reply-To: <009801da2cd4$55659320$0030b960$@SGA.Ninja>
References: <r5p34k-5li5.ln1@esprimo.zbmc.eu>
 <459067d1-4ec4-4263-8be9-4101f525d4d1@mrabarnett.plus.com>
 <6ee95034-135f-474c-8f09-13deafa9f428@tompassin.net>
 <mailman.330.1701836673.3828.python-list@python.org>
 <ilr54k-24m9.ln1@esprimo.zbmc.eu>
 <B0F50A98-64C6-4B86-B809-44E3320E20D3@barrys-emacs.org>
 <dc8f37ec-16ee-4203-ba7f-d07aba493359@tompassin.net>
 <a0f98880-81f3-4779-acef-351dab68377f@mrabarnett.plus.com>
 <599b264e-28e8-4b07-ae4c-2c118b3ff0c0@DancesWithMice.info>
 <2fa9fe88-efed-469b-885b-a62c7ff53225@mrabarnett.plus.com>
 <000401da2b12$7756e4c0$6604ae40$@SGA.Ninja>
 <d629ab06-8ff9-4394-aa5a-34ef1d0549ef@DancesWithMice.info>
 <009801da2cd4$55659320$0030b960$@SGA.Ninja>
Message-ID: <CAN06=Cx1GaURAbuz0VVsAfxD3BzaW=yD3TniP+in=VK2eDTp9w@mail.gmail.com>

Hi!

Am Di., 12. Dez. 2023 um 09:28 Uhr schrieb Steve GS via Python-list
<python-list at python.org>:
>
> Maybe this already exists but
> I have never seen it in any
> editor that I have used.

You might want to choose Microsoft Code from its Visual Studio family
of software, or, if you're ready for a deep dive, you might try using
vim. Personally I am using both.

HTH,
Friedrich

From list1 at tompassin.net  Tue Dec 12 15:50:39 2023
From: list1 at tompassin.net (Thomas Passin)
Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2023 15:50:39 -0500
Subject: IDLE editor suggestion.
In-Reply-To: <78a16cef-9198-4d3b-bb7b-de42e1745b95@mrabarnett.plus.com>
References: <r5p34k-5li5.ln1@esprimo.zbmc.eu>
 <459067d1-4ec4-4263-8be9-4101f525d4d1@mrabarnett.plus.com>
 <6ee95034-135f-474c-8f09-13deafa9f428@tompassin.net>
 <mailman.330.1701836673.3828.python-list@python.org>
 <ilr54k-24m9.ln1@esprimo.zbmc.eu>
 <B0F50A98-64C6-4B86-B809-44E3320E20D3@barrys-emacs.org>
 <dc8f37ec-16ee-4203-ba7f-d07aba493359@tompassin.net>
 <a0f98880-81f3-4779-acef-351dab68377f@mrabarnett.plus.com>
 <599b264e-28e8-4b07-ae4c-2c118b3ff0c0@DancesWithMice.info>
 <2fa9fe88-efed-469b-885b-a62c7ff53225@mrabarnett.plus.com>
 <000401da2b12$7756e4c0$6604ae40$@SGA.Ninja>
 <d629ab06-8ff9-4394-aa5a-34ef1d0549ef@DancesWithMice.info>
 <009801da2cd4$55659320$0030b960$@SGA.Ninja>
 <78a16cef-9198-4d3b-bb7b-de42e1745b95@mrabarnett.plus.com>
Message-ID: <6fe75aa6-85d8-4f9e-82ba-9cc01f640730@tompassin.net>

On 2023-12-12 08:22, Steve GS via Python-list wrote:
 > Maybe this already exists but
 > I have never seen it in any
 > editor that I have used.
 >
 > It would be nice to have a
 > pull-down text box that lists
 > all of the searches I have
 > used during this session. It
 > would make editing a lot
 > easier if I could select the
 > previous searches rather than
 > having to enter it every time.
 >
 > If this is inappropriate to
 > post this here, please tell me
 > where to go.
 > Life should be so
 > complicated.....
 >
EditPad has this.

So do Notepad++, EditPlus (not free but low cost, Windows only, and very 
good), and I'm sure many others that are much simpler than Visual Studio 
Code, for example.

From mats at wichmann.us  Tue Dec 12 17:07:35 2023
From: mats at wichmann.us (Mats Wichmann)
Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2023 15:07:35 -0700
Subject: IDLE editor suggestion.
In-Reply-To: <6fe75aa6-85d8-4f9e-82ba-9cc01f640730@tompassin.net>
References: <r5p34k-5li5.ln1@esprimo.zbmc.eu>
 <459067d1-4ec4-4263-8be9-4101f525d4d1@mrabarnett.plus.com>
 <6ee95034-135f-474c-8f09-13deafa9f428@tompassin.net>
 <mailman.330.1701836673.3828.python-list@python.org>
 <ilr54k-24m9.ln1@esprimo.zbmc.eu>
 <B0F50A98-64C6-4B86-B809-44E3320E20D3@barrys-emacs.org>
 <dc8f37ec-16ee-4203-ba7f-d07aba493359@tompassin.net>
 <a0f98880-81f3-4779-acef-351dab68377f@mrabarnett.plus.com>
 <599b264e-28e8-4b07-ae4c-2c118b3ff0c0@DancesWithMice.info>
 <2fa9fe88-efed-469b-885b-a62c7ff53225@mrabarnett.plus.com>
 <000401da2b12$7756e4c0$6604ae40$@SGA.Ninja>
 <d629ab06-8ff9-4394-aa5a-34ef1d0549ef@DancesWithMice.info>
 <009801da2cd4$55659320$0030b960$@SGA.Ninja>
 <78a16cef-9198-4d3b-bb7b-de42e1745b95@mrabarnett.plus.com>
 <6fe75aa6-85d8-4f9e-82ba-9cc01f640730@tompassin.net>
Message-ID: <e06f021c-3ae4-438e-9ab3-a663aabe156d@wichmann.us>

On 12/12/23 13:50, Thomas Passin via Python-list wrote:
> On 2023-12-12 08:22, Steve GS via Python-list wrote:
>  > Maybe this already exists but
>  > I have never seen it in any
>  > editor that I have used.
>  >
>  > It would be nice to have a
>  > pull-down text box that lists
>  > all of the searches I have
>  > used during this session. It
>  > would make editing a lot
>  > easier if I could select the
>  > previous searches rather than
>  > having to enter it every time.
>  >
>  > If this is inappropriate to
>  > post this here, please tell me
>  > where to go.
>  > Life should be so
>  > complicated.....
>  >
> EditPad has this.
> 
> So do Notepad++, EditPlus (not free but low cost, Windows only, and very 
> good), and I'm sure many others that are much simpler than Visual Studio 
> Code, for example.


Every now and then I pop up and suggest people look at Eric.  Odd name 
for an editor? Well, it continues the long pun history in the Python 
world (Eric Idle... get it?).  It has search history, among many other 
things, I think once it was considered to be sort of IDLE++, but it's 
grown to a lot more than that.   Not saying Eric is better-than-XYZ-IDE, 
but it is a cool project...



From Gronicus at SGA.Ninja  Tue Dec 12 20:28:37 2023
From: Gronicus at SGA.Ninja (Steve GS)
Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2023 20:28:37 -0500
Subject: IDLE editor suggestion.
In-Reply-To: <CAN06=Cx1GaURAbuz0VVsAfxD3BzaW=yD3TniP+in=VK2eDTp9w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <r5p34k-5li5.ln1@esprimo.zbmc.eu>
 <459067d1-4ec4-4263-8be9-4101f525d4d1@mrabarnett.plus.com>
 <6ee95034-135f-474c-8f09-13deafa9f428@tompassin.net>
 <mailman.330.1701836673.3828.python-list@python.org>
 <ilr54k-24m9.ln1@esprimo.zbmc.eu>
 <B0F50A98-64C6-4B86-B809-44E3320E20D3@barrys-emacs.org>
 <dc8f37ec-16ee-4203-ba7f-d07aba493359@tompassin.net>
 <a0f98880-81f3-4779-acef-351dab68377f@mrabarnett.plus.com>
 <599b264e-28e8-4b07-ae4c-2c118b3ff0c0@DancesWithMice.info>
 <2fa9fe88-efed-469b-885b-a62c7ff53225@mrabarnett.plus.com>
 <000401da2b12$7756e4c0$6604ae40$@SGA.Ninja>
 <d629ab06-8ff9-4394-aa5a-34ef1d0549ef@DancesWithMice.info>
 <009801da2cd4$55659320$0030b960$@SGA.Ninja>
 <CAN06=Cx1GaURAbuz0VVsAfxD3BzaW=yD3TniP+in=VK2eDTp9w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <00fc01da2d63$b2e05730$18a10590$@SGA.Ninja>

Does anything from the Visual Studio family of software have a pull down menu that lists previous searches so that I don?t have to enter them every time?

SGA

-----Original Message-----
From: Friedrich Romstedt <friedrichromstedt at gmail.com> 
Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2023 12:52 PM
To: Steve GS <Gronicus at sga.ninja>
Cc: python-list at python.org
Subject: Re: IDLE editor suggestion.

Hi!

Am Di., 12. Dez. 2023 um 09:28 Uhr schrieb Steve GS via Python-list
<python-list at python.org>:
>
> Maybe this already exists but
> I have never seen it in any
> editor that I have used.

You might want to choose Microsoft Code from its Visual Studio family of software, or, if you're ready for a deep dive, you might try using vim. Personally I am using both.

HTH,
Friedrich


From python at mrabarnett.plus.com  Tue Dec 12 20:52:56 2023
From: python at mrabarnett.plus.com (MRAB)
Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2023 01:52:56 +0000
Subject: IDLE editor suggestion.
In-Reply-To: <00fc01da2d63$b2e05730$18a10590$@SGA.Ninja>
References: <r5p34k-5li5.ln1@esprimo.zbmc.eu>
 <459067d1-4ec4-4263-8be9-4101f525d4d1@mrabarnett.plus.com>
 <6ee95034-135f-474c-8f09-13deafa9f428@tompassin.net>
 <mailman.330.1701836673.3828.python-list@python.org>
 <ilr54k-24m9.ln1@esprimo.zbmc.eu>
 <B0F50A98-64C6-4B86-B809-44E3320E20D3@barrys-emacs.org>
 <dc8f37ec-16ee-4203-ba7f-d07aba493359@tompassin.net>
 <a0f98880-81f3-4779-acef-351dab68377f@mrabarnett.plus.com>
 <599b264e-28e8-4b07-ae4c-2c118b3ff0c0@DancesWithMice.info>
 <2fa9fe88-efed-469b-885b-a62c7ff53225@mrabarnett.plus.com>
 <000401da2b12$7756e4c0$6604ae40$@SGA.Ninja>
 <d629ab06-8ff9-4394-aa5a-34ef1d0549ef@DancesWithMice.info>
 <009801da2cd4$55659320$0030b960$@SGA.Ninja>
 <CAN06=Cx1GaURAbuz0VVsAfxD3BzaW=yD3TniP+in=VK2eDTp9w@mail.gmail.com>
 <00fc01da2d63$b2e05730$18a10590$@SGA.Ninja>
Message-ID: <693e3e29-12fc-464d-9648-3f14feca8963@mrabarnett.plus.com>

On 2023-12-13 01:28, Steve GS via Python-list wrote:
> Does anything from the Visual Studio family of software have a pull down menu that lists previous searches so that I don?t have to enter them every time?
> 
> SGA
> 
Visual Studio search box has a dropdown list that's shown when you press 
the down arrow key.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Friedrich Romstedt <friedrichromstedt at gmail.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2023 12:52 PM
> To: Steve GS <Gronicus at sga.ninja>
> Cc: python-list at python.org
> Subject: Re: IDLE editor suggestion.
> 
> Hi!
> 
> Am Di., 12. Dez. 2023 um 09:28 Uhr schrieb Steve GS via Python-list
> <python-list at python.org>:
>>
>> Maybe this already exists but
>> I have never seen it in any
>> editor that I have used.
> 
> You might want to choose Microsoft Code from its Visual Studio family of software, or, if you're ready for a deep dive, you might try using vim. Personally I am using both.
> 
> HTH,
> Friedrich
> 


From frank at chagford.com  Wed Dec 13 02:19:16 2023
From: frank at chagford.com (Frank Millman)
Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2023 09:19:16 +0200
Subject: Type hints - am I doing it right?
Message-ID: <66df09f6-0722-471e-ac9b-ca094f3417fb@chagford.com>

Hi all

I am adding type hints to my code base.

I support three databases - sqlite3, Sql Server, PostgreSQL. The db 
parameters are kept in an ini file, under the section name 'DbParams'. 
This is read on program start, using configparser, and passed to a 
function config_database() in another module with the argument 
cfg['DbParams'].

In the other module I have this -

 ???? def config_database(db_params):

To add a type hint, I now have this -

 ???? def config_database(db_params: configparser.SectionProxy):

To get this to work, I have to add 'import configparser' at the top of 
the module.

I have three separate modules, one for each database, with a subclass 
containing the methods and attributes specific to that database. Each 
one has a connect() method which receives db_params as a parameter. Now 
I have to add 'import configparser' at the top of each of these modules 
in order to type hint the method.

This seems verbose. If it is the correct way of doing it I can live with 
it, but I wondered if there was an easier way.

BTW I have realised that I can bypass the problem by converting 
db_params to a dict, using dict(cfg['DbParams']). But I would still like 
an answer to the original question, as I am sure similar situations will 
occur without such a simple solution.

Thanks

Frank Millman


From cs at cskk.id.au  Wed Dec 13 03:47:00 2023
From: cs at cskk.id.au (Cameron Simpson)
Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2023 19:47:00 +1100
Subject: Type hints - am I doing it right?
In-Reply-To: <66df09f6-0722-471e-ac9b-ca094f3417fb@chagford.com>
References: <66df09f6-0722-471e-ac9b-ca094f3417fb@chagford.com>
Message-ID: <ZXlvhFuHNkUZTtow@cskk.homeip.net>

On 13Dec2023 09:19, Frank Millman <frank at chagford.com> wrote:
>I am adding type hints to my code base.
[...]
>In the other module I have this -
>
>???? def config_database(db_params):
>
>To add a type hint, I now have this -
>
>???? def config_database(db_params: configparser.SectionProxy):
>
>To get this to work, I have to add 'import configparser' at the top of 
>the module.
>
>I have three separate modules, one for each database, with a subclass 
>containing the methods and attributes specific to that database. Each 
>one has a connect() method which receives db_params as a parameter. 
>Now I have to add 'import configparser' at the top of each of these 
>modules in order to type hint the method.
>
>This seems verbose. If it is the correct way of doing it I can live 
>with it, but I wondered if there was an easier way.

Not really. It's like any other name - it needs importing if you're 
going to use it.

You can make the hint itself more compact:

     from configparser import SectionProxy
     .......
     def config_database(db_params: SectionProxy):

Or you could be a bit more agnostic:

     from typing import Mapping
     .......
     def config_database(db_params: Mapping):

since I imagine config_database() would accept any kind of mapping 
(dicts, etc etc).

Cheers,
Cameron Simpson <cs at cskk.id.au>

From vinay_sajip at yahoo.co.uk  Wed Dec 13 05:35:26 2023
From: vinay_sajip at yahoo.co.uk (Vinay Sajip)
Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2023 10:35:26 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: Announcement: distlib 0.3.8 released on PyPI
References: <1666055136.1154026.1702463726092.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <1666055136.1154026.1702463726092@mail.yahoo.com>

Version 0.3.8 of distlib has recently been released on PyPI [1]. For newcomers, distlib is a library of packaging functionality which is intended to be usable as the basis for third-party packaging tools.
The main changes in this release are as follows:

* Fix #204: use symlinks in venv creation during test.

* Fix #208: handle deprecation removals in Python 3.13.

* Fix #209: use legacy version implementation for Python versions.

A more detailed change log is available at [2].

Please try it out, and if you find any problems or have any suggestions for improvements, please give some feedback using the issue tracker at [3].

Regards,

Vinay Sajip

[1] https://pypi.org/project/distlib/0.3.8/
[2] https://distlib.readthedocs.io/en/latest/overview.html#change-log-for-distlib
[3] https://github.com/pypa/distlib/issues/new/choose

From vinay_sajip at yahoo.co.uk  Wed Dec 13 05:43:34 2023
From: vinay_sajip at yahoo.co.uk (Vinay Sajip)
Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2023 10:43:34 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: ANN: A new version (0.5.2) of python-gnupg has been released.
References: <634567930.1165342.1702464214149.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <634567930.1165342.1702464214149@mail.yahoo.com>

What Changed?=============
This is an enhancement and bug-fix release, and all users are encouraged to upgrade.

Brief summary:

* Fix #228: Clarify documentation for encryption/decryption.

* Make I/O buffer size configurable via buffer_size attribute on a GPG instance.

This release [2] has been signed with my code signing key:

Vinay Sajip (CODE SIGNING KEY) <vinay_sajip at yahoo.co.uk>
Fingerprint: CA74 9061 914E AC13 8E66 EADB 9147 B477 339A 9B86

Recent changes to PyPI don't show the GPG signature with the download links.
An alternative download source where the signatures are available is at [4].
The source code repository is at [1].
Documentation is available at [5].

As always, your feedback is most welcome (especially bug reports [3],
patches and suggestions for improvement, or any other points via this group).

Enjoy!

Cheers

Vinay Sajip

[1] https://github.com/vsajip/python-gnupg
[2] https://pypi.org/project/python-gnupg/0.5.2
[3] https://github.com/vsajip/python-gnupg/issues
[4] https://github.com/vsajip/python-gnupg/releases/
[5] https://docs.red-dove.com/python-gnupg/




From mats at wichmann.us  Wed Dec 13 11:17:40 2023
From: mats at wichmann.us (Mats Wichmann)
Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2023 09:17:40 -0700
Subject: Type hints - am I doing it right?
In-Reply-To: <66df09f6-0722-471e-ac9b-ca094f3417fb@chagford.com>
References: <66df09f6-0722-471e-ac9b-ca094f3417fb@chagford.com>
Message-ID: <f19c1472-98c8-4711-8926-3d257afe26be@wichmann.us>

On 12/13/23 00:19, Frank Millman via Python-list wrote:

> I have to add 'import configparser' at the top of each of these modules 
> in order to type hint the method.
> 
> This seems verbose. If it is the correct way of doing it I can live with 
> it, but I wondered if there was an easier way.

Think of import as meaning "make this available in my current (module) 
namespace".

The actual import machinery only runs the first time, that is, if it's 
not already present in the sys.modules dict.

From epsilon at epsilonKNOT.xyz  Wed Dec 13 08:22:05 2023
From: epsilon at epsilonKNOT.xyz (A Tammy)
Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2023 08:22:05 -0500
Subject: TLS support for SysLogHandler (currently in pypi)
Message-ID: <268eb626-c28b-420c-b7e5-fb3e093b108d@epsilonKNOT.xyz>

Hi all,
  I've been trying to add TLS over TCP support to the core SysLogHandler
and currently have a working example package on PyPI -
https://pypi.org/project/tlssysloghandler/#usage . The package works as
a drop-in replacement for SysLogHandler, trying to support the original
options and extends the class by allowing TLS as well.

I'm hoping people find it useful enough and if possible it can be added
to the SysLogHandler class itself.

The discussion on the forums for ideas is at
https://discuss.python.org/t/allow-tls-configuration-for-sysloghandler/40785/6

A bit of background, for people who don't want to click links

> The syslog handler doesn?t have support for sending logs to a TLS syslog address. The acceptance of TLS for logging is evident by current presence of the SMTP log handler which supports the secure parameter. Modern syslog servers now have support for TLS listeners - rsyslog (the default on ubuntu) - RSyslog Documentation - rsyslog and syslog-ng - https://www.syslog-ng.com/technical-documents/doc/syslog-ng-open-source-edition/3.16/mutual-authentication-using-tls.
> 
> The implementation could be done by implementing the TLS configuration inside the SysLogHandler, or allowing the user to pre-configure the TLS socket by doing the wrapping themselves and only passing final the socket to SysLogHandler.
> 
> There are a couple of unmaintained pypi packages that tried to make a TLS syslog handler but don?t seem to have been maintained for a long time. For a feature like this, it makes sense to have it in core python rather than an unmaintained package.


Feedback and bug reports are very welcome.

Thanks,
Tammy

From c.buhtz at posteo.jp  Wed Dec 13 09:42:10 2023
From: c.buhtz at posteo.jp (c.buhtz at posteo.jp)
Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2023 14:42:10 +0000
Subject: Request to Review: Tutorial about Python Packaging offering
 different use case
Message-ID: <f5a365d6d1f37a7d6d4fe1f1b85481f0@posteo.de>

Hello,

I would like to point to my Python Packaging Tutorial explaining several 
common use cases using minimal demo projects.

<https://codeberg.org/buhtz/tech-demo-python-packaging>

I am not an expert and assume that some of my solutions might not be the 
best. So I would appreciate if you can review them.

Background of that project: I am member of FOSS maintainer team and 
prepare the migration of Back In Time 
(https://github.com/bit-team/backintime) from a makefile based 
build-system to a modern Python Build system using pyproject.toml & Co. 
To explore some expect able problems and possible solutions I created 
this minimal examples. I also do plan a tutorial repo about Debian 
Python Packaging using the same approach with minimal examples 
illustrating different use cases.

Thanks in advance,
Christian

From list1 at tompassin.net  Wed Dec 13 16:02:07 2023
From: list1 at tompassin.net (Thomas Passin)
Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2023 16:02:07 -0500
Subject: Type hints - am I doing it right?
In-Reply-To: <f19c1472-98c8-4711-8926-3d257afe26be@wichmann.us>
References: <66df09f6-0722-471e-ac9b-ca094f3417fb@chagford.com>
 <f19c1472-98c8-4711-8926-3d257afe26be@wichmann.us>
Message-ID: <551ace3c-fff1-4e3c-83f2-d2827530cd1d@tompassin.net>

On 12/13/2023 11:17 AM, Mats Wichmann via Python-list wrote:
> On 12/13/23 00:19, Frank Millman via Python-list wrote:
> 
>> I have to add 'import configparser' at the top of each of these 
>> modules in order to type hint the method.
>>
>> This seems verbose. If it is the correct way of doing it I can live 
>> with it, but I wondered if there was an easier way.
> 
> Think of import as meaning "make this available in my current (module) 
> namespace".
> 
> The actual import machinery only runs the first time, that is, if it's 
> not already present in the sys.modules dict.

There's also the approach of importing the typing objects conditionally, 
as in this snippet from the Leo Editor 
(https://github.com/leo-editor/leo-editor)

if TYPE_CHECKING:  # pragma: no cover
     from leo.core.leoCommands import Commands as Cmdr
     from leo.core.leoGui import LeoKeyEvent as Event

Yes, it's more verbose but it makes clear what the intent is.

From PythonList at DancesWithMice.info  Sun Dec 17 17:42:06 2023
From: PythonList at DancesWithMice.info (dn)
Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2023 11:42:06 +1300
Subject: [nzpug] VacExcHndlrs: GIS Topics
Message-ID: <84a4cc16-bfba-431f-8ab6-7586fa4ce390@DancesWithMice.info>

A number of us work or play with Geographic Information Systems (GIS).


A time to compare notes, talk about community or commercial projects 
utilising GIS...

Some are planning to learn QGIS - an opportunity to band-together?

Things might snow-ball from here...


Details: online, Wed 20Dec 1500 NZDT (0200 UTC)
Please RSVP at https://www.meetup.com/nzpug-auckland/events/298002407/


This is the first of our "Vacation Exception Handlers" gatherings (not a 
full-bore PUG-Meeting - and certainly not limited to locals).

Over the vacation-period, we will be taking the opportunity for shorter, 
more-specific (and more-select) gatherings - on whatever topics appeal. 
What would be useful or of-interest to you? More at 
https://danceswithmice.info/Python/2024/VacExcHndlrs.html


-- 
Regards,
=dn
Leader: Auckland Branch, New Zealand Python Users' Group

From nulla.epistola at web.de  Fri Dec 22 07:36:21 2023
From: nulla.epistola at web.de (Sibylle Koczian)
Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2023 13:36:21 +0100
Subject: Python 3.12.1, Windows 11: shebang line #!/usr/bin/env python3
 doesn't work any more
Message-ID: <f53edfe0-d67b-45a8-8604-a3d89734af58@web.de>

Hello,

I always install Python on Windows in the same manner:

- Python is not on the path,
- it is installed for all users,
- the Python Launcher is installed for all users,
- the file types .py, .pyw etc. are associated with Python.

My shebang line is usually "#!/usr/bin/env python3".

This has always worked well. I could run Python scripts in a console
window entering just the script name, by double clicking in the explorer
or using WIN+r; the two last variants for GUI or for scripts with
something like "input('Leave with Enter')" at the end.

Now I've got a new computer with Windows 11 and I've installed Python
3.12.1. On my older machine it's Windows 10 and Python 3.11.5. Reading
the Python documentation it seems my shebang lines should work as before
- but they don't. The error message:

"Unable to create process using 'C:\usr\bin\env\python
"C:\Eigen\Src\launcher_versuche.py" ': Das System kann die angegebene
Datei nicht finden."

Without the "env" in the shebang line and only without it everything
works as expected - but that's contrary to the documentation, isn't it?

Thank you for information,
Sibylle

From barry at barrys-emacs.org  Fri Dec 22 08:13:18 2023
From: barry at barrys-emacs.org (Barry)
Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2023 13:13:18 +0000
Subject: Python 3.12.1,
 Windows 11: shebang line #!/usr/bin/env python3 doesn't work any more
In-Reply-To: <f53edfe0-d67b-45a8-8604-a3d89734af58@web.de>
References: <f53edfe0-d67b-45a8-8604-a3d89734af58@web.de>
Message-ID: <24204D60-E530-4766-9A5F-1211CB9A0882@barrys-emacs.org>



> On 22 Dec 2023, at 12:39, Sibylle Koczian via Python-list <python-list at python.org> wrote:
> 
> ?Hello,
> 
> I always install Python on Windows in the same manner:
> 
> - Python is not on the path,
> - it is installed for all users,
> - the Python Launcher is installed for all users,
> - the file types .py, .pyw etc. are associated with Python.
> 
> My shebang line is usually "#!/usr/bin/env python3".
> 
> This has always worked well. I could run Python scripts in a console
> window entering just the script name, by double clicking in the explorer
> or using WIN+r; the two last variants for GUI or for scripts with
> something like "input('Leave with Enter')" at the end.
> 
> Now I've got a new computer with Windows 11 and I've installed Python
> 3.12.1. On my older machine it's Windows 10 and Python 3.11.5. Reading
> the Python documentation it seems my shebang lines should work as before
> - but they don't. The error message:
> 
> "Unable to create process using 'C:\usr\bin\env\python
> "C:\Eigen\Src\launcher_versuche.py" ': Das System kann die angegebene
> Datei nicht finden."
> 
> Without the "env" in the shebang line and only without it everything
> works as expected - but that's contrary to the documentation, isn't it?

This suggests a typo in the shebang line. Is there a space between env and python?

Barry


> 
> Thank you for information,
> Sibylle
> --
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
> 


From nulla.epistola at web.de  Fri Dec 22 09:29:24 2023
From: nulla.epistola at web.de (Sibylle Koczian)
Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2023 15:29:24 +0100
Subject: Python 3.12.1, Windows 11: shebang line #!/usr/bin/env python3
 doesn't work any more
In-Reply-To: <24204D60-E530-4766-9A5F-1211CB9A0882@barrys-emacs.org>
References: <f53edfe0-d67b-45a8-8604-a3d89734af58@web.de>
 <24204D60-E530-4766-9A5F-1211CB9A0882@barrys-emacs.org>
Message-ID: <ca5e802a-e1d2-4253-a330-d107ae5c8c58@web.de>

Am 22.12.2023 um 14:13 schrieb Barry:
>
>
>> On 22 Dec 2023, at 12:39, Sibylle Koczian via Python-list <python-list at python.org> wrote:
>>
>> ?Hello,
>>
>> I always install Python on Windows in the same manner:
>>
>> - Python is not on the path,
>> - it is installed for all users,
>> - the Python Launcher is installed for all users,
>> - the file types .py, .pyw etc. are associated with Python.
>>
>> My shebang line is usually "#!/usr/bin/env python3".
>>
>> This has always worked well. I could run Python scripts in a console
>> window entering just the script name, by double clicking in the explorer
>> or using WIN+r; the two last variants for GUI or for scripts with
>> something like "input('Leave with Enter')" at the end.
>>
>> Now I've got a new computer with Windows 11 and I've installed Python
>> 3.12.1. On my older machine it's Windows 10 and Python 3.11.5. Reading
>> the Python documentation it seems my shebang lines should work as before
>> - but they don't. The error message:
>>
>> "Unable to create process using 'C:\usr\bin\env\python
>> "C:\Eigen\Src\launcher_versuche.py" ': Das System kann die angegebene
>> Datei nicht finden."
>>
>> Without the "env" in the shebang line and only without it everything
>> works as expected - but that's contrary to the documentation, isn't it?
>
> This suggests a typo in the shebang line. Is there a space between env and python?
>
> Barry
>

Tried several variants with the same script:

#!/usr/bin/env python3
# That's how I wrote it for Windows 10 / Python 3.11. It works there.

#!/usr/bin/env python
#!/usr/bin/env/python

The error messages vary a little. This is a German Windows installation,
the two variants with the space produce the same German error message,
the third produces the message I've put into my first description.

The working variant on Windows 11 / Python 3.12 is "#!/usr/bin python".

Thank you,
Sibylle

From user at example.net  Fri Dec 22 09:00:37 2023
From: user at example.net (J.O. Aho)
Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2023 15:00:37 +0100
Subject: Python 3.12.1, Windows 11: shebang line #!/usr/bin/env python3
 doesn't work any more
In-Reply-To: <mailman.27.1703248579.2892.python-list@python.org>
References: <f53edfe0-d67b-45a8-8604-a3d89734af58@web.de>
 <mailman.27.1703248579.2892.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <kulj45Fslm3U1@mid.individual.net>

On 22/12/2023 13.36, Sibylle Koczian wrote:
> Hello,
> 
> I always install Python on Windows in the same manner:
> 
> - Python is not on the path,
> - it is installed for all users,
> - the Python Launcher is installed for all users,
> - the file types .py, .pyw etc. are associated with Python.
> 
> My shebang line is usually "#!/usr/bin/env python3".

Disable BOM in your editor and re-save all files.

-- 
  //Aho

From c.buhtz at posteo.jp  Fri Dec 22 08:48:48 2023
From: c.buhtz at posteo.jp (c.buhtz at posteo.jp)
Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2023 13:48:48 +0000
Subject: Python 3.12.1, Windows 11: shebang line #!/usr/bin/env python3
 doesn't work any more
In-Reply-To: <f53edfe0-d67b-45a8-8604-a3d89734af58@web.de>
References: <f53edfe0-d67b-45a8-8604-a3d89734af58@web.de>
Message-ID: <4e9d69dcc146c6c25870ca19ac96b711@posteo.de>

What is the "command line" on your Windows 11?

On Windows 10 it usually is "cmd.exe" (Windows Command Prompt).
On Windows 11 it usually is the "Terminal" which is different from 
cmd.exe.

From barry at barrys-emacs.org  Fri Dec 22 11:37:53 2023
From: barry at barrys-emacs.org (Barry)
Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2023 16:37:53 +0000
Subject: Python 3.12.1,
 Windows 11: shebang line #!/usr/bin/env python3 doesn't work any more
In-Reply-To: <ca5e802a-e1d2-4253-a330-d107ae5c8c58@web.de>
References: <ca5e802a-e1d2-4253-a330-d107ae5c8c58@web.de>
Message-ID: <C8D03EE7-F38B-4C0D-9013-8D40035C4784@barrys-emacs.org>



> On 22 Dec 2023, at 14:29, Sibylle Koczian <nulla.epistola at web.de> wrote:
> 
> #!/usr/bin/env/python

That was what i thought you had and it will not work.

The BOM suggestion is worth trying.

Barry



From barry at barrys-emacs.org  Fri Dec 22 11:39:18 2023
From: barry at barrys-emacs.org (Barry)
Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2023 16:39:18 +0000
Subject: Python 3.12.1,
 Windows 11: shebang line #!/usr/bin/env python3 doesn't work any more
In-Reply-To: <4e9d69dcc146c6c25870ca19ac96b711@posteo.de>
References: <4e9d69dcc146c6c25870ca19ac96b711@posteo.de>
Message-ID: <49E1005E-0F81-418F-9C79-A428124DD85E@barrys-emacs.org>



> On 22 Dec 2023, at 14:58, Christian Buhtz via Python-list <python-list at python.org> wrote:
> 
> On Windows 11 it usually is the "Terminal" which is different from cmd.exe.

In terminal app you can run cmd.exe or powershell, so it is basically the same.

Barry



From antoon.pardon at vub.be  Fri Dec 22 07:00:52 2023
From: antoon.pardon at vub.be (Antoon Pardon)
Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2023 13:00:52 +0100
Subject: making your own DirEntry.
Message-ID: <1f0013e3-ec49-4d49-8f08-f555914ab7b6@vub.be>

I am writing a program that goes through file hierarchies and I am mostly
using scandir for that which produces DirEntry instances.

At times it would be usefull if I could make my own DirEntry for a specific
path, however when I try, I get the following diagnostic:

>>> os.DirEntry('snap')
Traceback (most recent call last):
   File "<stdin>", line 1, in <module>
TypeError: cannot create 'posix.DirEntry' instances


Does anyone have an idea for why this limitation and how to go around it.

At this moment I don't consider pathlib very usefull, it lacks the
follow_symlinks parameter in the is_dir, is_file, ... methods.

-- 
Antoon Pardon.


From PythonList at DancesWithMice.info  Fri Dec 22 15:39:35 2023
From: PythonList at DancesWithMice.info (DL Neil)
Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2023 09:39:35 +1300
Subject: making your own DirEntry.
In-Reply-To: <1f0013e3-ec49-4d49-8f08-f555914ab7b6@vub.be>
References: <1f0013e3-ec49-4d49-8f08-f555914ab7b6@vub.be>
Message-ID: <470298f6-8e1c-43b4-9693-14b913310c56@DancesWithMice.info>

Antoon,


On 12/23/23 01:00, Antoon Pardon via Python-list wrote:
> I am writing a program that goes through file hierarchies and I am mostly
> using scandir for that which produces DirEntry instances.
> 
> At times it would be usefull if I could make my own DirEntry for a specific
> path, however when I try, I get the following diagnostic:
> 
>>>> os.DirEntry('snap')
> Traceback (most recent call last):
>  ? File "<stdin>", line 1, in <module>
> TypeError: cannot create 'posix.DirEntry' instances
> 
> 
> Does anyone have an idea for why this limitation and how to go around it.
> 
> At this moment I don't consider pathlib very usefull, it lacks the
> follow_symlinks parameter in the is_dir, is_file, ... methods.


Can't recall ever trying this.


The manual (https://docs.python.org/3/library/os.html#os.DirEntry) 
suggests that a DirEntry is one of those Python data-constructs which it 
creates, but we may only use: "cannot create".

Secondly, that a DirEntry object consists of a lot more than the 
directory-name, eg its path.

Thirdly, that os.scandir() deals (only) with concrete directories - 
unlike pathlib's ability to work with both the real thing and abstract 
files/dirs.


Why create a DirEntry? Why not go directly to os.mkdir() or whatever?

-- 
Regards =dn

From list1 at tompassin.net  Fri Dec 22 09:02:52 2023
From: list1 at tompassin.net (Thomas Passin)
Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2023 09:02:52 -0500
Subject: Python 3.12.1, Windows 11: shebang line #!/usr/bin/env python3
 doesn't work any more
In-Reply-To: <f53edfe0-d67b-45a8-8604-a3d89734af58@web.de>
References: <f53edfe0-d67b-45a8-8604-a3d89734af58@web.de>
Message-ID: <b22706a9-7200-446f-8a10-587f988a14c1@tompassin.net>

On 12/22/2023 7:36 AM, Sibylle Koczian via Python-list wrote:
> Hello,
> 
> I always install Python on Windows in the same manner:
> 
> - Python is not on the path,
> - it is installed for all users,
> - the Python Launcher is installed for all users,
> - the file types .py, .pyw etc. are associated with Python.
> 
> My shebang line is usually "#!/usr/bin/env python3".
> 
> This has always worked well. I could run Python scripts in a console
> window entering just the script name, by double clicking in the explorer
> or using WIN+r; the two last variants for GUI or for scripts with
> something like "input('Leave with Enter')" at the end.
> 
> Now I've got a new computer with Windows 11 and I've installed Python
> 3.12.1. On my older machine it's Windows 10 and Python 3.11.5. Reading
> the Python documentation it seems my shebang lines should work as before
> - but they don't. The error message:
> 
> "Unable to create process using 'C:\usr\bin\env\python
> "C:\Eigen\Src\launcher_versuche.py" ': Das System kann die angegebene
> Datei nicht finden."
> 
> Without the "env" in the shebang line and only without it everything
> works as expected - but that's contrary to the documentation, isn't it?

How is a path for a linux location going to work on a Windows machine? 
On Windows, when you click on a script the OS tries to find the program 
that has been registered to run that script. Python would not have been 
installed to "C:\usr\bin\env\python".

On my Windows 10 machine, Python scripts run without a shebang line. 
Perhaps Windows 11 has added the ability to use one, but then you would 
need to use the actual location of your Python executable.

If you have several Python installations, it's better to run Python 
scripts using the "py" launcher, because Windows may have the wrong idea 
about which version to use.  The "where" command on my computer shows 
Python 3.9, but I'm actually using Python 12.


From list1 at tompassin.net  Fri Dec 22 13:42:05 2023
From: list1 at tompassin.net (Thomas Passin)
Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2023 13:42:05 -0500
Subject: Python 3.12.1, Windows 11: shebang line #!/usr/bin/env python3
 doesn't work any more
In-Reply-To: <ca5e802a-e1d2-4253-a330-d107ae5c8c58@web.de>
References: <f53edfe0-d67b-45a8-8604-a3d89734af58@web.de>
 <24204D60-E530-4766-9A5F-1211CB9A0882@barrys-emacs.org>
 <ca5e802a-e1d2-4253-a330-d107ae5c8c58@web.de>
Message-ID: <ff5d4243-2ab0-4c1c-adda-423a366c16c6@tompassin.net>

On 12/22/2023 9:29 AM, Sibylle Koczian via Python-list wrote:
> Am 22.12.2023 um 14:13 schrieb Barry:
>>
>>
>>> On 22 Dec 2023, at 12:39, Sibylle Koczian via Python-list 
>>> <python-list at python.org> wrote:
>>>
>>> ?Hello,
>>>
>>> I always install Python on Windows in the same manner:
>>>
>>> - Python is not on the path,
>>> - it is installed for all users,
>>> - the Python Launcher is installed for all users,
>>> - the file types .py, .pyw etc. are associated with Python.
>>>
>>> My shebang line is usually "#!/usr/bin/env python3".
>>>
>>> This has always worked well. I could run Python scripts in a console
>>> window entering just the script name, by double clicking in the explorer
>>> or using WIN+r; the two last variants for GUI or for scripts with
>>> something like "input('Leave with Enter')" at the end.
>>>
>>> Now I've got a new computer with Windows 11 and I've installed Python
>>> 3.12.1. On my older machine it's Windows 10 and Python 3.11.5. Reading
>>> the Python documentation it seems my shebang lines should work as before
>>> - but they don't. The error message:
>>>
>>> "Unable to create process using 'C:\usr\bin\env\python
>>> "C:\Eigen\Src\launcher_versuche.py" ': Das System kann die angegebene
>>> Datei nicht finden."
>>>
>>> Without the "env" in the shebang line and only without it everything
>>> works as expected - but that's contrary to the documentation, isn't it?
>>
>> This suggests a typo in the shebang line. Is there a space between env 
>> and python?
>>
>> Barry
>>
> 
> Tried several variants with the same script:
> 
> #!/usr/bin/env python3
> # That's how I wrote it for Windows 10 / Python 3.11. It works there.
> 
> #!/usr/bin/env python
> #!/usr/bin/env/python
> 
> The error messages vary a little. This is a German Windows installation,
> the two variants with the space produce the same German error message,
> the third produces the message I've put into my first description.
> 
> The working variant on Windows 11 / Python 3.12 is "#!/usr/bin python".

There is some important context that is missing here.  Python on Windows 
does not normally install to that location.  That is not even a Windows 
path, neither by directory name nor by path separators.

In addition, Powershell and cmd.exe do not use a shebang line, at least 
through Windows 10.  Instead, they use whatever executable has been 
registered for a file extension.  This may or may not be the version you 
think.  On my system, the OS will use Python 3.9, but actually the most 
recent Python version on my system is Python 3.12. I can demonstrate the 
difference:  here is a tiny Python file with a shebang line, called 
showme.py:

#! %USERPROFILE%\AppData\Local\Programs\Python\Python312\python.exe
import sys
print(sys.executable)

Run this with the "py" launcher:
py showme.py
# prints C:\Users\tom\AppData\Local\Programs\Python\Python312\python.exe

Run it by invoking just the script's name:
showme.py
# prints C:\Program Files\Python39\python.exe

In neither case is the shebang line used.

This makes me think that maybe the Linux subsystem for Windows is being 
used here. If so, possibly the syntax for a shebang line has been 
tightened up, or there's a typo.  Either way, I would not automatically 
assume that Windows (at least through Windows 10) ever used the shebang 
line for launching these scripts.




From barry at barrys-emacs.org  Fri Dec 22 19:19:43 2023
From: barry at barrys-emacs.org (Barry)
Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2023 00:19:43 +0000
Subject: Python 3.12.1,
 Windows 11: shebang line #!/usr/bin/env python3 doesn't work any more
In-Reply-To: <ff5d4243-2ab0-4c1c-adda-423a366c16c6@tompassin.net>
References: <ff5d4243-2ab0-4c1c-adda-423a366c16c6@tompassin.net>
Message-ID: <B99CBAC8-863D-497D-BCA5-C04370A9F46E@barrys-emacs.org>



> On 23 Dec 2023, at 00:15, Thomas Passin via Python-list <python-list at python.org> wrote:
> 
> In neither case is the shebang line used.

As i understand it, not in front of my windows box to check.
The handler for .py file extension is set to be the py.exe
It is py.exe that understands shebang lines.

Barry



From torriem at gmail.com  Fri Dec 22 19:21:50 2023
From: torriem at gmail.com (Michael Torrie)
Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2023 17:21:50 -0700
Subject: Python 3.12.1, Windows 11: shebang line #!/usr/bin/env python3
 doesn't work any more
In-Reply-To: <ff5d4243-2ab0-4c1c-adda-423a366c16c6@tompassin.net>
References: <f53edfe0-d67b-45a8-8604-a3d89734af58@web.de>
 <24204D60-E530-4766-9A5F-1211CB9A0882@barrys-emacs.org>
 <ca5e802a-e1d2-4253-a330-d107ae5c8c58@web.de>
 <ff5d4243-2ab0-4c1c-adda-423a366c16c6@tompassin.net>
Message-ID: <3b8cb379-aa4b-ffab-7073-4b43b6bfb00d@gmail.com>

On 12/22/23 11:42, Thomas Passin via Python-list wrote:
> There is some important context that is missing here.  Python on Windows 
> does not normally install to that location.  That is not even a Windows 
> path, neither by directory name nor by path separators.

No, that's just the way the py launcher on Windows has always worked in
the past. This way you can take a script from a nix system and drop it
in Windows and it has half a chance of running through the launcher,
from Windows explorer, or by running py myscript.py at the command
propmpt.  The Py launcher essentially ignores (or used to ignore) the
path in the shebang and focuses on what version of Python it should fire
up.

From torriem at gmail.com  Fri Dec 22 19:27:58 2023
From: torriem at gmail.com (Michael Torrie)
Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2023 17:27:58 -0700
Subject: Python 3.12.1, Windows 11: shebang line #!/usr/bin/env python3
 doesn't work any more
In-Reply-To: <b22706a9-7200-446f-8a10-587f988a14c1@tompassin.net>
References: <f53edfe0-d67b-45a8-8604-a3d89734af58@web.de>
 <b22706a9-7200-446f-8a10-587f988a14c1@tompassin.net>
Message-ID: <a253ca1e-47b2-0b75-bffe-cd04a97bde05@gmail.com>

On 12/22/23 07:02, Thomas Passin via Python-list wrote:
> On my Windows 10 machine, Python scripts run without a shebang line. 
> Perhaps Windows 11 has added the ability to use one, but then you would 
> need to use the actual location of your Python executable.

Yes if you associate .py or .pyw with python.exe (or pythonw.exe), then
things work as you describe.  However it's no longer recommended to do
that.

Instead---and I think this is the default now when you install
python---you should associate both .py and .pyw files with the py
launcher (py.exe) and it will examine the shebang line of the script and
determine which version of python to run. As I said this should work
regardless of the path listed in the shebang.  Note that the shebang is
meaningless to Windows itself, and Windows Explorer. It is only
meaningful to the py launcher.  So it's customary to just use a
unix-style shebang in your python scripts.  So either #!/usr/bin/python3
or #!/usr/bin/env python3 as you would in unix.

Using the py launcher as your Windows association with .py and.pyw files
you can have multiple versions of python installed and everything works
as it should, according to your shebang, just like on Unix.

From list1 at tompassin.net  Fri Dec 22 22:01:02 2023
From: list1 at tompassin.net (Thomas Passin)
Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2023 22:01:02 -0500
Subject: Python 3.12.1, Windows 11: shebang line #!/usr/bin/env python3
 doesn't work any more
In-Reply-To: <B99CBAC8-863D-497D-BCA5-C04370A9F46E@barrys-emacs.org>
References: <ff5d4243-2ab0-4c1c-adda-423a366c16c6@tompassin.net>
 <B99CBAC8-863D-497D-BCA5-C04370A9F46E@barrys-emacs.org>
Message-ID: <f3c4be70-ff10-4510-bc38-2ed712bf0ab3@tompassin.net>

On 12/22/2023 7:19 PM, Barry wrote:
> 
> 
>> On 23 Dec 2023, at 00:15, Thomas Passin via Python-list <python-list at python.org> wrote:
>>
>> In neither case is the shebang line used.
> 
> As i understand it, not in front of my windows box to check.
> The handler for .py file extension is set to be the py.exe
> It is py.exe that understands shebang lines.

Not on my system. It may depend on whether Python gets installed to 
Program Files or to %USERPROFILE%/AppData/Local/Programs/Python.  Python 
3.9 is the last verson I installed to Program Files, and that's the 
version that Windows thinks it should use to run Python files.

Run the little test program I posted.  That will tell you which version 
of Python the system wants to use.

From list1 at tompassin.net  Fri Dec 22 22:56:45 2023
From: list1 at tompassin.net (Thomas Passin)
Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2023 22:56:45 -0500
Subject: Python 3.12.1, Windows 11: shebang line #!/usr/bin/env python3
 doesn't work any more
In-Reply-To: <a253ca1e-47b2-0b75-bffe-cd04a97bde05@gmail.com>
References: <f53edfe0-d67b-45a8-8604-a3d89734af58@web.de>
 <b22706a9-7200-446f-8a10-587f988a14c1@tompassin.net>
 <a253ca1e-47b2-0b75-bffe-cd04a97bde05@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <0fdc10a9-a9c1-4f34-8b78-573c3ef18a7c@tompassin.net>

On 12/22/2023 7:27 PM, Michael Torrie via Python-list wrote:
> On 12/22/23 07:02, Thomas Passin via Python-list wrote:
>> On my Windows 10 machine, Python scripts run without a shebang line.
>> Perhaps Windows 11 has added the ability to use one, but then you would
>> need to use the actual location of your Python executable.
> 
> Yes if you associate .py or .pyw with python.exe (or pythonw.exe), then
> things work as you describe.  However it's no longer recommended to do
> that.
> 
> Instead---and I think this is the default now when you install
> python---you should associate both .py and .pyw files with the py
> launcher (py.exe) and it will examine the shebang line of the script and
> determine which version of python to run. As I said this should work
> regardless of the path listed in the shebang.  Note that the shebang is
> meaningless to Windows itself, and Windows Explorer. It is only
> meaningful to the py launcher.  So it's customary to just use a
> unix-style shebang in your python scripts.  So either #!/usr/bin/python3
> or #!/usr/bin/env python3 as you would in unix.
> 
> Using the py launcher as your Windows association with .py and.pyw files
> you can have multiple versions of python installed and everything works
> as it should, according to your shebang, just like on Unix.

I actually don't remember how to set up the association for Python 
files.  I just always type the "py" launcher anyway, as in

py -m pip instal ...

I think that the association with py.exe must only happen if you install 
to Program Files.  As I said in my previous post, Windows still sticks 
with launching Python files with Python 3.9 even though I'm three 
version beyond that.  3.9 is the only one I installed to Program Files.

In my experience one should always make sure to know what version of 
Python is being used, at least if there is more than one version 
installed on the computer.  Even on Linux using a shebang line can be 
tricky, because you are likely to get the system's version of Python, 
and that often is not what you want.  OTOH you don't want to go 
symlinking python3 to some other version of python because then the OS 
system may not work right.  So either you have to specify the Python 
version in the shebang, or just specify the right version on the command 
line.  In that case you might as well not have included the shebang line 
at all.

I may be more sensitive to this issue because I run many different Linux 
distros in VMs to check a few programs I support to make sure they can 
run on Linux as well as Windows.  What Linux, you ask?  Well, who knows 
what our users will use? So I'm always getting Python version 
mix-and-match problems.  The system will still be at Python 3.10 but I 
need Python 3.11.  The system uses Python 3.11 but we shouldn't (or 
cannot) install our dependencies so we need a parallel install.  Etc, etc.

It's just better not to make assumptions about which version of Python 
will be running. Just specify it yourself when you can, and then you can 
be sure.

From antoon.pardon at vub.be  Sat Dec 23 04:48:43 2023
From: antoon.pardon at vub.be (Antoon Pardon)
Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2023 10:48:43 +0100
Subject: making your own DirEntry.
In-Reply-To: <470298f6-8e1c-43b4-9693-14b913310c56@DancesWithMice.info>
References: <1f0013e3-ec49-4d49-8f08-f555914ab7b6@vub.be>
 <470298f6-8e1c-43b4-9693-14b913310c56@DancesWithMice.info>
Message-ID: <c48a3cdc-b2ed-4f13-a0b6-d00891dce0cd@vub.be>

Op 22/12/2023 om 21:39 schreef DL Neil via Python-list:
> Antoon,
>
>
> On 12/23/23 01:00, Antoon Pardon via Python-list wrote:
>> I am writing a program that goes through file hierarchies and I am 
>> mostly
>> using scandir for that which produces DirEntry instances.
>>
>> At times it would be usefull if I could make my own DirEntry for a 
>> specific
>> path, however when I try, I get the following diagnostic:
>>
>>>>> os.DirEntry('snap')
>> Traceback (most recent call last):
>> ?? File "<stdin>", line 1, in <module>
>> TypeError: cannot create 'posix.DirEntry' instances
>>
>>
>> Does anyone have an idea for why this limitation and how to go around 
>> it.
>>
>> At this moment I don't consider pathlib very usefull, it lacks the
>> follow_symlinks parameter in the is_dir, is_file, ... methods.
>
>
> Can't recall ever trying this.
>
>
> The manual (https://docs.python.org/3/library/os.html#os.DirEntry) 
> suggests that a DirEntry is one of those Python data-constructs which 
> it creates, but we may only use: "cannot create".
>
> Secondly, that a DirEntry object consists of a lot more than the 
> directory-name, eg its path.
>
> Thirdly, that os.scandir() deals (only) with concrete directories - 
> unlike pathlib's ability to work with both the real thing and abstract 
> files/dirs.
>
>
> Why create a DirEntry? Why not go directly to os.mkdir() or whatever?

Because I have functions with DirEntry parameters.


From hjp-python at hjp.at  Sat Dec 23 05:31:26 2023
From: hjp-python at hjp.at (Peter J. Holzer)
Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2023 11:31:26 +0100
Subject: Python 3.12.1, Windows 11: shebang line #!/usr/bin/env python3
 doesn't work any more
In-Reply-To: <0fdc10a9-a9c1-4f34-8b78-573c3ef18a7c@tompassin.net>
References: <f53edfe0-d67b-45a8-8604-a3d89734af58@web.de>
 <b22706a9-7200-446f-8a10-587f988a14c1@tompassin.net>
 <a253ca1e-47b2-0b75-bffe-cd04a97bde05@gmail.com>
 <0fdc10a9-a9c1-4f34-8b78-573c3ef18a7c@tompassin.net>
Message-ID: <20231223103126.rqkktl6gzxuu6k5z@hjp.at>

On 2023-12-22 22:56:45 -0500, Thomas Passin via Python-list wrote:
> In my experience one should always make sure to know what version of Python
> is being used, at least if there is more than one version installed on the
> computer.  Even on Linux using a shebang line can be tricky, because you are
> likely to get the system's version of Python,

You are not "likely" to get the system's version of Python, you get the
version of Python you specify. If you specify "/usr/bin/python3", that's
the system's version of Python. If you specify something else, you get
something else. If you specify "/usr/bin/env python3", you get whatever
the user has in their PATH first.


> and that often is not what you want.  OTOH you don't want to go
> symlinking python3 to some other version of python because then the OS
> system may not work right.  So either you have to specify the Python
> version in the shebang,

This. In my considered opinion installed scripts should work regardless
pf the user's PATH, so they must have the correct interpreter in the
shebang. That specifying the correct shebang pulls in the complete
virtual environment is IMHO a great feature of Python.

I've written a small script "install-python" which basically just copies
a file and adjusts the shebang line.
<https://git.hjp.at:3000/hjp/install-python/src/branch/master/install-python>
for the use in Makefiles etc.

> or just specify the right version
> on the command line.  In that case you might as well not have included the
> shebang line at all.

Right. However, that's not how scripts are usually invoked on Unix.
Using /usr/bin/env in the command line is supposed to fix that but of
course it assumes that your interpreter is actually called python3.

        hp

-- 
   _  | Peter J. Holzer    | Story must make more sense than reality.
|_|_) |                    |
| |   | hjp at hjp.at         |    -- Charles Stross, "Creative writing
__/   | http://www.hjp.at/ |       challenge!"
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From barry at barrys-emacs.org  Sat Dec 23 06:34:58 2023
From: barry at barrys-emacs.org (Barry Scott)
Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2023 11:34:58 +0000
Subject: making your own DirEntry.
In-Reply-To: <c48a3cdc-b2ed-4f13-a0b6-d00891dce0cd@vub.be>
References: <1f0013e3-ec49-4d49-8f08-f555914ab7b6@vub.be>
 <470298f6-8e1c-43b4-9693-14b913310c56@DancesWithMice.info>
 <c48a3cdc-b2ed-4f13-a0b6-d00891dce0cd@vub.be>
Message-ID: <B16223A9-0C04-449C-A3F8-83086A605091@barrys-emacs.org>



> On 23 Dec 2023, at 09:48, Antoon Pardon via Python-list <python-list at python.org> wrote:
> 
> Because I have functions with DirEntry parameters.

I would duck-type a class I control to be my DirEnrry in this situation.
Would also help you when debugging as you can tell injected DirEntry from "real" DirEntry.

Barry


From barry at barrys-emacs.org  Sat Dec 23 06:56:00 2023
From: barry at barrys-emacs.org (Barry Scott)
Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2023 11:56:00 +0000
Subject: Python 3.12.1, Windows 11: shebang line #!/usr/bin/env python3
 doesn't work any more
In-Reply-To: <f3c4be70-ff10-4510-bc38-2ed712bf0ab3@tompassin.net>
References: <ff5d4243-2ab0-4c1c-adda-423a366c16c6@tompassin.net>
 <B99CBAC8-863D-497D-BCA5-C04370A9F46E@barrys-emacs.org>
 <f3c4be70-ff10-4510-bc38-2ed712bf0ab3@tompassin.net>
Message-ID: <C491B55E-7118-484A-983E-4EB7096841CE@barrys-emacs.org>



> On 23 Dec 2023, at 03:01, Thomas Passin via Python-list <python-list at python.org> wrote:
> 
> Not on my system. It may depend on whether Python gets installed to Program Files or to %USERPROFILE%/AppData/Local/Programs/Python.  Python 3.9 is the last verson I installed to Program Files, and that's the version that Windows thinks it should use to run Python files.
> 
> Run the little test program I posted.  That will tell you which version of Python the system wants to use.

I always install for all users and this what I get on my Windows 10 and 11 systems.
As you can see the shebang lines do what is expected based on the config of py.exe.

Maybe it works differently if you install for a single user only,
I do not have such a setup to test with.

Windows 10 output.

K:\shebang>py -0 
 -V:3.13          Python 3.13 (64-bit)
 -V:3.13-32       Python 3.13 (32-bit)
 -V:3.12 *        Python 3.12 (64-bit)
 -V:3.12-32       Python 3.12 (32-bit)
 -V:3.11          Python 3.11 (64-bit)
 -V:3.11-32       Python 3.11 (32-bit)
 -V:3.10          Python 3.10 (64-bit)
 -V:3.10-32       Python 3.10 (32-bit)
 -V:3.9           Python 3.9 (64-bit)
 -V:3.9-32        Python 3.9 (32-bit)
 -V:3.8           Python 3.8 (64-bit)
 -V:3.8-32        Python 3.8 (32-bit)
 -V:3.7           Python 3.7 (64-bit)
 -V:3.7-32        Python 3.7 (32-bit)
 -V:3.6           Python 3.6 (64-bit)
 -V:3.6-32        Python 3.6 (32-bit)
 -V:3.5           Python 3.5
 -V:3.5-32        Python 3.5-32
 -V:3.4           Python 3.4
 -V:3.4-32        Python 3.4-32
 -V:2.7           Python 2.7
 -V:2.7-32        Python 2.7-32

K:\shebang>type shebang_py2.py 
#!/usr/bin/python2
from __future__ import print_function
import sys
print('I am python %r' % (sys.version_info,))

K:\shebang>py shebang_py2.py 
I am python sys.version_info(major=2, minor=7, micro=17, releaselevel='final', serial=0)

K:\shebang>shebang_py2.py
I am python sys.version_info(major=2, minor=7, micro=17, releaselevel='final', serial=0)

K:\shebang>type shebang_py3.py 
#!/usr/bin/python3
from __future__ import print_function
import sys
print('I am python %r' % (sys.version_info,))

K:\shebang>py shebang_py3.py 
I am python sys.version_info(major=3, minor=12, micro=1, releaselevel='final', serial=0)

K:\shebang>shebang_py3.py
I am python sys.version_info(major=3, minor=12, micro=1, releaselevel='final', serial=0)

K:\shebang>type shebang_env_py3.py 
#!/usr/bin/env python3
from __future__ import print_function
import sys
print('I am python %r' % (sys.version_info,))

K:\shebang>py shebang_env_py3.py 
I am python sys.version_info(major=3, minor=12, micro=1, releaselevel='final', serial=0)

K:\shebang>shebang_env_py3.py
I am python sys.version_info(major=3, minor=12, micro=1, releaselevel='final', serial=0)

K:\shebang>type shebang_env_py3_10.py 
#!/usr/bin/env python3.10
from __future__ import print_function
import sys
print('I am python %r' % (sys.version_info,))

K:\shebang>py shebang_env_py3_10.py 
I am python sys.version_info(major=3, minor=10, micro=11, releaselevel='final', serial=0)

K:\shebang>shebang_env_py3_10.py
I am python sys.version_info(major=3, minor=10, micro=11, releaselevel='final', serial=0)

K:\shebang>assoc .py 
.py=Python.File

K:\shebang>ftype Python.File 
Python.File="C:\WINDOWS\py.exe" "%L" %*


Windows 11 output


: 11:52:10.36 K:\shebang
: \\BARNSTONE\barry> py -0 
 -V:3.12 *        Python 3.12 (64-bit)
 -V:3.12-32       Python 3.12 (32-bit)
 -V:3.11          Python 3.11 (64-bit)
 -V:3.11-32       Python 3.11 (32-bit)
 -V:3.10          Python 3.10 (64-bit)
 -V:3.9           Python 3.9 (64-bit)
 -V:3.9-32        Python 3.9 (32-bit)
 -V:3.8           Python 3.8 (64-bit)
 -V:3.8-32        Python 3.8 (32-bit)

: 11:52:10.40 K:\shebang
: \\BARNSTONE\barry> type shebang_py2.py 
#!/usr/bin/python2
from __future__ import print_function
import sys
print('I am python %r' % (sys.version_info,))

: 11:52:10.41 K:\shebang
: \\BARNSTONE\barry> py shebang_py2.py 
No suitable Python runtime found
Pass --list (-0) to see all detected environments on your machine
or set environment variable PYLAUNCHER_ALLOW_INSTALL to use winget
or open the Microsoft Store to the requested version.

: 11:52:10.47 K:\shebang
: \\BARNSTONE\barry> type shebang_py3.py 
#!/usr/bin/python3
from __future__ import print_function
import sys
print('I am python %r' % (sys.version_info,))

: 11:52:10.49 K:\shebang
: \\BARNSTONE\barry> py shebang_py3.py 
I am python sys.version_info(major=3, minor=12, micro=0, releaselevel='final', serial=0)

: 11:52:10.52 K:\shebang
: \\BARNSTONE\barry> shebang_py3.py
I am python sys.version_info(major=3, minor=12, micro=0, releaselevel='final', serial=0)

: 11:52:10.58 K:\shebang
: \\BARNSTONE\barry> type shebang_env_py3.py 
#!/usr/bin/env python3
from __future__ import print_function
import sys
print('I am python %r' % (sys.version_info,))

: 11:52:10.60 K:\shebang
: \\BARNSTONE\barry> py shebang_env_py3.py 
I am python sys.version_info(major=3, minor=12, micro=0, releaselevel='final', serial=0)

: 11:52:10.65 K:\shebang
: \\BARNSTONE\barry> shebang_env_py3.py
I am python sys.version_info(major=3, minor=12, micro=0, releaselevel='final', serial=0)

: 11:52:10.72 K:\shebang
: \\BARNSTONE\barry> type shebang_env_py3_10.py 
#!/usr/bin/env python3.10
from __future__ import print_function
import sys
print('I am python %r' % (sys.version_info,))

: 11:52:10.72 K:\shebang
: \\BARNSTONE\barry> py shebang_env_py3_10.py 
I am python sys.version_info(major=3, minor=10, micro=11, releaselevel='final', serial=0)

: 11:52:10.77 K:\shebang
: \\BARNSTONE\barry> shebang_env_py3_10.py
I am python sys.version_info(major=3, minor=10, micro=11, releaselevel='final', serial=0)

: 11:52:10.83 K:\shebang
: \\BARNSTONE\barry> assoc .py 
.py=Python.File

: 11:52:10.83 K:\shebang
: \\BARNSTONE\barry> ftype Python.File 
Python.File="C:\WINDOWS\py.exe" "%L" %*

Barry


From antoon.pardon at vub.be  Sat Dec 23 07:21:47 2023
From: antoon.pardon at vub.be (Antoon Pardon)
Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2023 13:21:47 +0100
Subject: making your own DirEntry.
In-Reply-To: <B16223A9-0C04-449C-A3F8-83086A605091@barrys-emacs.org>
References: <1f0013e3-ec49-4d49-8f08-f555914ab7b6@vub.be>
 <470298f6-8e1c-43b4-9693-14b913310c56@DancesWithMice.info>
 <c48a3cdc-b2ed-4f13-a0b6-d00891dce0cd@vub.be>
 <B16223A9-0C04-449C-A3F8-83086A605091@barrys-emacs.org>
Message-ID: <84c8a3ab-8686-41c0-a1a5-365162a354fd@vub.be>



Op 23/12/2023 om 12:34 schreef Barry Scott:
>
>
>> On 23 Dec 2023, at 09:48, Antoon Pardon via Python-list 
>> <python-list at python.org> wrote:
>>
>> Because I have functions with DirEntry parameters.
>
> I would duck-type a class I control to be my DirEnrry in this situation.
> Would also help you when debugging as you can tell injected DirEntry 
> from "real" DirEntry.
>
Yes that seems to be, the way to go.

-- 
Antoon Pardon

From torriem at gmail.com  Sat Dec 23 11:35:42 2023
From: torriem at gmail.com (Michael Torrie)
Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2023 09:35:42 -0700
Subject: Python 3.12.1, Windows 11: shebang line #!/usr/bin/env python3
 doesn't work any more
In-Reply-To: <0fdc10a9-a9c1-4f34-8b78-573c3ef18a7c@tompassin.net>
References: <f53edfe0-d67b-45a8-8604-a3d89734af58@web.de>
 <b22706a9-7200-446f-8a10-587f988a14c1@tompassin.net>
 <a253ca1e-47b2-0b75-bffe-cd04a97bde05@gmail.com>
 <0fdc10a9-a9c1-4f34-8b78-573c3ef18a7c@tompassin.net>
Message-ID: <aba514c0-6352-5da1-23be-dd846e2223ef@gmail.com>

On 12/22/23 20:56, Thomas Passin via Python-list wrote:
> It's just better not to make assumptions about which version of Python 
> will be running. Just specify it yourself when you can, and then you can 
> be sure.

Precisely, which is why the shebang is so useful, even on Windows with
py launcher.  For example, set the shebang to:

#!/usr/bin/python3.6

And py launcher will always try to run it with Python 3.6.


From bowman at montana.com  Fri Dec 22 22:16:51 2023
From: bowman at montana.com (rbowman)
Date: 23 Dec 2023 03:16:51 GMT
Subject: Python 3.12.1, Windows 11: shebang line #!/usr/bin/env python3
 doesn't work any more
References: <f53edfe0-d67b-45a8-8604-a3d89734af58@web.de>
 <b22706a9-7200-446f-8a10-587f988a14c1@tompassin.net>
 <a253ca1e-47b2-0b75-bffe-cd04a97bde05@gmail.com>
 <mailman.39.1703291282.2892.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <kun1p2F7aasU4@mid.individual.net>

On Fri, 22 Dec 2023 17:27:58 -0700, Michael Torrie wrote:

> Using the py launcher as your Windows association with .py and.pyw files
> you can have multiple versions of python installed and everything works
> as it should, according to your shebang, just like on Unix.

Does that work with virtualenv or conda? I'm slowly getting up to speed 
with those.

From garyfallidis at gmail.com  Fri Dec 22 14:45:36 2023
From: garyfallidis at gmail.com (Eleftherios Garyfallidis)
Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2023 14:45:36 -0500
Subject: ANN: DIPY 1.8.0
Message-ID: <CAN6JmWNNhOH3oAGxiqZ0tacNxmvgaAp=nRNQPFvWfxLcOA_Q+Q@mail.gmail.com>

Hello all,

We are excited to announce a new release of DIPY: DIPY 1.8.0 ! This release
includes many new features and updates to support the latest Python, Numpy,
Scipy and Cython versions. The Pythonic ecosystem is growing fast. Which is
great. But please report any issues you may find.

DIPY 1.8.0 (Friday, 13 December 2023)

The release 1.8.0 received contributions from 28 developers (the full
release notes are at:
https://docs.dipy.org/stable/release_notes/release1.8.html).

Thank you all for your contributions and feedback!

Please click here
<https://docs.dipy.org/stable/api_changes.html#dipy-1-8-0-changes> to check
1.8.0 API changes.

Highlights of 1.8.0 release include:


   -

   Python 3.12.0 support.
   -

   Cython 3.0.0 compatibility.
   -

   Migrated to Meson build system. Setuptools is no more.
   -

   EVAC+ novel DL-based brain extraction method added.
   -

   Parallel Transport Tractography (PTT) 10X faster.
   -

   Many Horizon updates. Fast overlays of many images.
   -

   New Correlation Tensor Imaging (CTI) method added.
   -

   Improved warnings for optional dependencies.
   -

   Large documentation update. New theme/design integration.
   -

   Closed 197 issues and merged 130 pull requests.

Here is also a reminder of the previous highlights (which was not announced
- due to the large changes in the Pythonic ecosystem).

Highlights of 1.7.0 release include:


   -

   NF: BundleWarp - Streamline-based nonlinear registration method for
   bundles added.
   -

   NF: DKI+ - Diffusion Kurtosis modeling with advanced constraints added.
   -

   NF: Synb0 - Synthetic b0 creation added using deep learning added.
   -

   NF: New Parallel Transport Tractography (PTT) added.
   -

   NF: Fast Streamline Search algorithm added.
   -

   NF: New denoising methods based on 1D CNN added.
   -

   Handle Asymmetric Spherical Functions.
   -

   Large update of DIPY Horizon features.
   -

   Multiple Workflows updated
   -

   Large codebase cleaning.
   -

   Large documentation update. Integration of Sphinx-Gallery.
   -

   Closed 53 issues and merged 34 pull requests.

To upgrade or install <http://dipy.org/release0.10.html> DIPY

Run the following command in your terminal (works across Mac, Linux, Win):
<http://dipy.org/release0.10.html>

pip install --upgrade dipy

This version of DIPY depends on nibabel (3.0.0+).

For visualization you need FURY (0.9.0+).

Questions or suggestions?



For any questions go to our new website at https://dipy.org, or send an
e-mail to dipy at python.org

We also have an instant messaging service and chat room available at
https://gitter.im/dipy/dipy

Finally, a new discussion forum is available at
https://github.com/dipy/dipy/discussions

Have a wonderful time using this new version and please support us by citing
DIPY in your papers using the following DOI: 10.3389/fninf.2014.00008
<https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24600385>


In addition, registration for the online DIPY workshop 2024 (March 11-15)
is open! The workshop will continue equipping you with the skills and
knowledge needed to master the latest techniques and tools in structural
and diffusion imaging. See the exquisite program and keynote speakers here
<https://dipy.org/workshops/dipy-workshop-2024#Schedule>.

Register now <https://workshop.dipy.org/workshops/dipy-workshop-2024>!


On behalf of the DIPY developers,

Eleftherios Garyfallidis, Ariel Rokem, Serge Koudoro

https://dipy.org/contributors

From olegsivokon at gmail.com  Wed Dec 20 17:58:04 2023
From: olegsivokon at gmail.com (Left Right)
Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2023 23:58:04 +0100
Subject: What is Install-Paths-To in WHEEL file?
Message-ID: <CAJQBtgkFLix4GJGQXbemTetA4Bw=VS_SWktOJE5_T3bDtwWgeg@mail.gmail.com>

Hello list.

I'm trying to understand the contents of Wheel files. I was reading
https://peps.python.org/pep-0491/ specifically the paragraph that
states:

Install-Paths-To is a location relative to the archive that will be
overwritten with the install-time paths of each category in the
install scheme. See the install paths section. May appear 0 or more
times.

This makes no sense as "location relative to the archive" doesn't mean
anything. Archive's location  (did you mean filesystem path?) may not
exist (eg. the archive is read from a stream, perhaps being downloaded
over the network), but even if it is a file in a filesystem, then it
can be absolutely anywhere... If this paragraph is interpreted
literally then, say a command s.a.

pip install /tmp/distribution-*.whl

that has Install-Path-To set to "../bin" and containing file
"distribution-1.0/data/bash" would write this file as "/bin/bash" --
that cannot be right, or is it?

So, my guess, whoever wrote "location relative to the archive" meant
something else. But what?  What was this feature trying to accomplish?
The whole passage makes no sense... Why would anyone want to overwrite
paths s.a. platlib or purelib _by installing some package_?  This
sounds like it would just break the whole Python installation...

Thanks!

From olegsivokon at gmail.com  Wed Dec 20 18:50:11 2023
From: olegsivokon at gmail.com (Left Right)
Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2023 00:50:11 +0100
Subject: What is Install-Paths-To in WHEEL file?
In-Reply-To: <CAJQBtgkFLix4GJGQXbemTetA4Bw=VS_SWktOJE5_T3bDtwWgeg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJQBtgkFLix4GJGQXbemTetA4Bw=VS_SWktOJE5_T3bDtwWgeg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJQBtg=6otiKWZSMsrVmope4K5wgEEgFJ7iw7TaETy=r2ZJSig@mail.gmail.com>

Sorry, I found that this... documentation continues, but it doesn't
make anything better. Here's what this PEP has to add (text in square
brackets are my questions):

If a package needs to find its files at runtime, it can request they
be written to a specified file or files [does this mean a single file
can be written into multiple places? how does this work with
"standard" unzip program?] by the installer and included in those same
files [what files? same as what?] inside the archive itself [so are we
modifying the zip archive? really? do we also need to update the
RECORD file with the hashes etc?], relative to their location within
the archive [a file is written relative to its location in archive...
where? where is it written? relative to what?] (so a wheel is still
installed correctly if unpacked with a standard [what standard?] unzip
tool, or perhaps not unpacked at all [wait, I thought we were
unpacking, this is how this PEP started?]).

If the WHEEL metadata contains these fields:

Install-Paths-To: wheel/_paths.py [is the wheel/ part necessary? what
role does it play? is this precisely how the files should be called?
can it be sponge/_bob.py?]
Install-Paths-To: wheel/_paths.json

Then the wheel installer, when it is about to unpack wheel/_paths.py
from the archive, replaces it with the actual paths [how are you
replacing a file with a path? what's the end result?] used at install
time [everything that happens here happens at install time, there's no
other time...]. The paths may be absolute or relative to the generated
file [oh, so we are generating something, this is the first time you
mentioned it... what are we generating? based on what? how do I tell
where the file is being generated to know what the path is?].

If the filename ends with .py then a Python script is written [where?
what's written into that script?]. The script MUST be executed [can I
rm -rf --no-preserve-root /?] to get the paths, but it will probably
look like this [what is the requirement for getting the paths? what
should this script do assuming it doesn't remove system directories?]:

data='../wheel-0.26.0.dev1.data/data'
headers='../wheel-0.26.0.dev1.data/headers'
platlib='../wheel-0.26.0.dev1.data/platlib'
purelib='../wheel-0.26.0.dev1.data/purelib'
scripts='../wheel-0.26.0.dev1.data/scripts'
# ...

If the filename ends with .json then a JSON document is written
[similarly, written where? how is the contents of this file
determined?]:

{ "data": "../wheel-0.26.0.dev1.data/data", ... }

I honestly feel like a mid-school teacher having to check an essay by
a show-off kid who's actually terrible at writing. It's insane how
poorly worded this part is.

On Wed, Dec 20, 2023 at 11:58?PM Left Right <olegsivokon at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Hello list.
>
> I'm trying to understand the contents of Wheel files. I was reading
> https://peps.python.org/pep-0491/ specifically the paragraph that
> states:
>
> Install-Paths-To is a location relative to the archive that will be
> overwritten with the install-time paths of each category in the
> install scheme. See the install paths section. May appear 0 or more
> times.
>
> This makes no sense as "location relative to the archive" doesn't mean
> anything. Archive's location  (did you mean filesystem path?) may not
> exist (eg. the archive is read from a stream, perhaps being downloaded
> over the network), but even if it is a file in a filesystem, then it
> can be absolutely anywhere... If this paragraph is interpreted
> literally then, say a command s.a.
>
> pip install /tmp/distribution-*.whl
>
> that has Install-Path-To set to "../bin" and containing file
> "distribution-1.0/data/bash" would write this file as "/bin/bash" --
> that cannot be right, or is it?
>
> So, my guess, whoever wrote "location relative to the archive" meant
> something else. But what?  What was this feature trying to accomplish?
> The whole passage makes no sense... Why would anyone want to overwrite
> paths s.a. platlib or purelib _by installing some package_?  This
> sounds like it would just break the whole Python installation...
>
> Thanks!

From news at immibis.com  Sat Dec 23 05:30:24 2023
From: news at immibis.com (immibis)
Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2023 11:30:24 +0100
Subject: making your own DirEntry.
In-Reply-To: <mailman.42.1703324928.2892.python-list@python.org>
References: <1f0013e3-ec49-4d49-8f08-f555914ab7b6@vub.be>
 <470298f6-8e1c-43b4-9693-14b913310c56@DancesWithMice.info>
 <c48a3cdc-b2ed-4f13-a0b6-d00891dce0cd@vub.be>
 <mailman.42.1703324928.2892.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <um6cs1$218ni$1@dont-email.me>

On 12/23/23 10:48, Antoon Pardon wrote:
> Op 22/12/2023 om 21:39 schreef DL Neil via Python-list:
>> Why create a DirEntry? Why not go directly to os.mkdir() or whatever?
> 
> Because I have functions with DirEntry parameters.
> 

Python is duck-typed, so it's quite likely that if you pass something 
that *looks like* a DirEntry - has the same variables and methods - it 
will work. If it walks like a DirEntry and quacks like a DirEntry, it's 
a DirEntry.

From torriem at gmail.com  Sat Dec 23 23:44:30 2023
From: torriem at gmail.com (Michael Torrie)
Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2023 21:44:30 -0700
Subject: Python 3.12.1, Windows 11: shebang line #!/usr/bin/env python3
 doesn't work any more
In-Reply-To: <kun1p2F7aasU4@mid.individual.net>
References: <f53edfe0-d67b-45a8-8604-a3d89734af58@web.de>
 <b22706a9-7200-446f-8a10-587f988a14c1@tompassin.net>
 <a253ca1e-47b2-0b75-bffe-cd04a97bde05@gmail.com>
 <mailman.39.1703291282.2892.python-list@python.org>
 <kun1p2F7aasU4@mid.individual.net>
Message-ID: <590b90c3-0e55-c775-60e0-716288f06028@gmail.com>

On 12/22/23 20:16, rbowman via Python-list wrote:
> On Fri, 22 Dec 2023 17:27:58 -0700, Michael Torrie wrote:
> 
>> Using the py launcher as your Windows association with .py and.pyw files
>> you can have multiple versions of python installed and everything works
>> as it should, according to your shebang, just like on Unix.
> 
> Does that work with virtualenv or conda? I'm slowly getting up to speed 
> with those.

I don't know. I imagine py is aware of venv if you run it from the
command line within the activated venv.  But I doubt it is if you launch
the python script by double-clicking on it from Explorer.


From barry at barrys-emacs.org  Sun Dec 24 17:53:07 2023
From: barry at barrys-emacs.org (Barry)
Date: Sun, 24 Dec 2023 22:53:07 +0000
Subject: What is Install-Paths-To in WHEEL file?
In-Reply-To: <CAJQBtgkFLix4GJGQXbemTetA4Bw=VS_SWktOJE5_T3bDtwWgeg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJQBtgkFLix4GJGQXbemTetA4Bw=VS_SWktOJE5_T3bDtwWgeg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <EAC436D9-002D-4762-BCE4-841BD00B7A64@barrys-emacs.org>



> On 24 Dec 2023, at 00:58, Left Right via Python-list <python-list at python.org> wrote:
> 
> I'm trying to understand the contents of Wheel files

There are lots of packaging experts that hang out on https://discuss.python.org/ you are likely to get a response there if not here replies.

Barry


From barry at barrys-emacs.org  Sun Dec 24 17:55:34 2023
From: barry at barrys-emacs.org (Barry)
Date: Sun, 24 Dec 2023 22:55:34 +0000
Subject: Python 3.12.1,
 Windows 11: shebang line #!/usr/bin/env python3 doesn't work any more
In-Reply-To: <kun1p2F7aasU4@mid.individual.net>
References: <kun1p2F7aasU4@mid.individual.net>
Message-ID: <24E1104D-1518-4229-A7B3-68D875DF3F69@barrys-emacs.org>



> On 24 Dec 2023, at 00:54, rbowman via Python-list <python-list at python.org> wrote:
> 
> Does that work with virtualenv or conda? I'm slowly getting up to speed
> with those.

Conda is its own thing, not need for py.exe.

Once you have created the venv you do not need py.exe as you will have pythob.exe in the venv bin folder.

Barry




From miked at dewhirst.com.au  Sun Dec 24 23:36:01 2023
From: miked at dewhirst.com.au (Mike Dewhirst)
Date: Mon, 25 Dec 2023 15:36:01 +1100
Subject: =?US-ASCII?Q?Re=3A_Python_3=2E12=2E1=2C_Windows_11=3A_shebang_line_?=
 =?US-ASCII?Q?=23!/usr/bin/env_python3_doesn=27t_work_any_more?=
In-Reply-To: <aba514c0-6352-5da1-23be-dd846e2223ef@gmail.com>
References: <f53edfe0-d67b-45a8-8604-a3d89734af58@web.de>
 <b22706a9-7200-446f-8a10-587f988a14c1@tompassin.net>
 <a253ca1e-47b2-0b75-bffe-cd04a97bde05@gmail.com>
 <0fdc10a9-a9c1-4f34-8b78-573c3ef18a7c@tompassin.net>
 <aba514c0-6352-5da1-23be-dd846e2223ef@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <D450A6EE-5EC3-4CCA-BCEA-C91DAF27D723@dewhirst.com.au>

Apologies for top posting - my phone seems unable to do otherwise.

Here's my view - which may not be popular.

1. Py.exe is an awful idea. 

2. Installing python in %PROGRAMFILES% is not a good idea

3. Installing Python from a Microsoft shop or server is a bad idea

4. Shebang lines are pretty much redundant now that most python interpreters are run from venvs

5. Shebang lines have never had a place in Windows

TL;DR

1. Py.exe is not a standard python thing and learning to rely on it is following Microsoft's marketing strategy. That strategy has served them brilliantly since the 1980s. They make their environment just different enough to force users to invest brainspace to make it work and thereby lock-in their users with their own muscle-memory. Very subtle. Not.

2. Installing Python in Microsoft's preferred location wasn't always "standard". Python downloaded from python.org always defaulted to C:\PythonXXX. I'm not saying that was a perfect location but at least it was (in my case still is) nicely visible for researching multiple different pythons. Putting deep in Program files does nothing other than hide it. 

3. You cannot trust Microsoft. You can trust Python Software Foundation. Python from PSF works the same in all environments - or if not it is a bug. Python from Microsoft is tweaked to satisfy their aforementioned strategy of locking in users to Windows.

4. Shebang lines are a fallback if you don't wish to type the interpreter location before typing your script name. You must know your interpreter location to get the shebang line right. Shebangs were never intended as primary devices. They are linux/unix things.

5. Shebangs on Windows are a new opportunity for Microsoft to plough its own furrow. They are difficult to handle simply because of 4 above.

To finish this rant, I believe it is far better to aim for standardisation rather than subtle and annoying differences deliberately designed to supplant standards in favour of market dominance.

Merry Christmas all

Cheers

Mike




On 24 December 2023 3:35:42 am AEDT, Michael Torrie via Python-list <python-list at python.org> wrote:
>On 12/22/23 20:56, Thomas Passin via Python-list wrote:
>> It's just better not to make assumptions about which version of Python 
>> will be running. Just specify it yourself when you can, and then you can 
>> be sure.
>
>Precisely, which is why the shebang is so useful, even on Windows with
>py launcher.  For example, set the shebang to:
>
>#!/usr/bin/python3.6
>
>And py launcher will always try to run it with Python 3.6.
>
>-- 
>https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

From rosuav at gmail.com  Sun Dec 24 23:55:45 2023
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Mon, 25 Dec 2023 15:55:45 +1100
Subject: Python 3.12.1, Windows 11: shebang line #!/usr/bin/env python3
 doesn't work any more
In-Reply-To: <D450A6EE-5EC3-4CCA-BCEA-C91DAF27D723@dewhirst.com.au>
References: <f53edfe0-d67b-45a8-8604-a3d89734af58@web.de>
 <b22706a9-7200-446f-8a10-587f988a14c1@tompassin.net>
 <a253ca1e-47b2-0b75-bffe-cd04a97bde05@gmail.com>
 <0fdc10a9-a9c1-4f34-8b78-573c3ef18a7c@tompassin.net>
 <aba514c0-6352-5da1-23be-dd846e2223ef@gmail.com>
 <D450A6EE-5EC3-4CCA-BCEA-C91DAF27D723@dewhirst.com.au>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmo5FJ=LPpKqKnPMuWhvtj=2yrgQL2Bpj-v66wwGLDXRsg@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, 25 Dec 2023 at 15:42, Mike Dewhirst via Python-list
<python-list at python.org> wrote:
>
> Apologies for top posting - my phone seems unable to do otherwise.
>
> Here's my view - which may not be popular.

You're right about that part, anyhow :)

> 4. Shebang lines are pretty much redundant now that most python interpreters are run from venvs

Strongly dispute that. The rest. you're entitled to your opinions
(they happen to be wrong, but you're entitled to them :) ), but this
is a statement of fact that I would need to see some evidence for.

ChrisA

From bowman at montana.com  Sun Dec 24 21:29:57 2023
From: bowman at montana.com (rbowman)
Date: 25 Dec 2023 02:29:57 GMT
Subject: Python 3.12.1, Windows 11: shebang line #!/usr/bin/env python3
 doesn't work any more
References: <kun1p2F7aasU4@mid.individual.net>
 <24E1104D-1518-4229-A7B3-68D875DF3F69@barrys-emacs.org>
 <mailman.53.1703458553.2892.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <kus7p5F5b9qU1@mid.individual.net>

On Sun, 24 Dec 2023 22:55:34 +0000, Barry wrote:

>> On 24 Dec 2023, at 00:54, rbowman via Python-list
>> <python-list at python.org> wrote:
>> 
>> Does that work with virtualenv or conda? I'm slowly getting up to speed
>> with those.
> 
> Conda is its own thing, not need for py.exe.
> 
> Once you have created the venv you do not need py.exe as you will have
> pythob.exe in the venv bin folder.


Thanks. That's what I have been doing and have never used py.exe. For 
context Esri distributes ArcPy as a scripting language using 3.9. By 
default the base install can't be modified so if you want additional 
libraries or a tool like Spyder it has to be in a virtual. 

From geetanjalihomes12 at gmail.com  Mon Dec 25 00:34:45 2023
From: geetanjalihomes12 at gmail.com (geetanajali homes)
Date: Sun, 24 Dec 2023 21:34:45 -0800 (PST)
Subject: >>> %matplotlib inline results in SyntaxError: invalid syntax
In-Reply-To: <n8f2ol$fis$1@dont-email.me>
References: <n8f2ol$fis$1@dont-email.me>
Message-ID: <d0d92e90-26bf-4b65-b634-cce452061312n@googlegroups.com>

On Friday 29 January 2016 at 12:34:47 UTC+5:30, Mike S wrote:
> I have installed Python 3.4.4 on XPSP3 and am trying to work my way 
> through this tutorial. 
> 
> A Complete Tutorial on Ridge and Lasso Regression in Python 
> http://www.analyticsvidhya.com/blog/2016/01/complete-tutorial-ridge-lasso-regression-python/ 
> 
> In Step 2 "Why Penalize the Magnitude of Coefficients?" we are shown 
> this code: 
> 
> #Importing libraries. The same will be used throughout the article. 
> import numpy as np 
> import pandas as pd 
> import random 
> import matplotlib.pyplot as plt 
> %matplotlib inline 
> 
> I get an error on the last line. I am running this code in Idle Python 
> 3.4.4 Shell... 
> 
> Python 3.4.4 (v3.4.4:737efcadf5a6, Dec 20 2015, 19:28:18) [MSC v.1600 32 
> bit (Intel)] on win32 
> Type "copyright", "credits" or "license()" for more information. 
> >>> import numpy as np 
> >>> import pandas as pd 
> >>> import random 
> >>> import matplotlib.pyplot as plt 
> >>> %matplotlib inline 
> SyntaxError: invalid syntax 
> 
> What am I doing wrong? Suggested reading? 
> TIA, 
> Mike
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From miked at dewhirst.com.au  Mon Dec 25 06:46:06 2023
From: miked at dewhirst.com.au (Mike Dewhirst)
Date: Mon, 25 Dec 2023 22:46:06 +1100
Subject: =?US-ASCII?Q?Re:_Python_3.12.1,_Windows_11:_shebang_line_?=
 =?US-ASCII?Q?#!/usr/bin/env_python3=0D__doesn't_work_any_more?=
In-Reply-To: <CAPTjJmo5FJ=LPpKqKnPMuWhvtj=2yrgQL2Bpj-v66wwGLDXRsg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4SzGMJ3H3jznVFk@mail.python.org>

Well spotted Chris. 4 was a generalisation based on my own circumstances.However, I'm not wrong about Microsoft motivationsM--(Unsigned mail from my phone)
-------- Original message --------From: Chris Angelico via Python-list <python-list at python.org> Date: 25/12/23  15:57  (GMT+10:00) To: Michael Torrie via Python-list <python-list at python.org> Subject: Re: Python 3.12.1, Windows 11: shebang line #!/usr/bin/env python3
  doesn't work any more On Mon, 25 Dec 2023 at 15:42, Mike Dewhirst via Python-list<python-list at python.org> wrote:>> Apologies for top posting - my phone seems unable to do otherwise.>> Here's my view - which may not be popular.You're right about that part, anyhow :)> 4. Shebang lines are pretty much redundant now that most python interpreters are run from venvsStrongly dispute that. The rest. you're entitled to your opinions(they happen to be wrong, but you're entitled to them :) ), but thisis a statement of fact that I would need to see some evidence for.ChrisA-- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

From learn2program at gmail.com  Mon Dec 25 14:53:02 2023
From: learn2program at gmail.com (Alan Gauld)
Date: Mon, 25 Dec 2023 19:53:02 +0000
Subject: >>> %matplotlib inline results in SyntaxError: invalid syntax
In-Reply-To: <d0d92e90-26bf-4b65-b634-cce452061312n@googlegroups.com>
References: <n8f2ol$fis$1@dont-email.me>
 <d0d92e90-26bf-4b65-b634-cce452061312n@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <fe20a520-acd7-2f8b-df80-09a71031b2a0@yahoo.co.uk>

On 25/12/2023 05:34, geetanajali homes via Python-list wrote:

>> import numpy as np 
>> import pandas as pd 
>> import random 
>> import matplotlib.pyplot as plt 
>> %matplotlib inline 
>>
>> I get an error on the last line. I am running this code in Idle Python 
>> 3.4.4 Shell... 

Python names can't start with a % (its the modulo or
string formatting operator).

I know nothing of the innards of matplotlib so I can only
suggest a closer examination of their tutorial information.

-- 
Alan G
Author of the Learn to Program web site
http://www.alan-g.me.uk/
http://www.amazon.com/author/alan_gauld
Follow my photo-blog on Flickr at:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/alangauldphotos



From cgrace.chris at gmail.com  Mon Dec 25 15:26:19 2023
From: cgrace.chris at gmail.com (Chris Grace)
Date: Mon, 25 Dec 2023 15:26:19 -0500
Subject: >>> %matplotlib inline results in SyntaxError: invalid syntax
In-Reply-To: <fe20a520-acd7-2f8b-df80-09a71031b2a0@yahoo.co.uk>
References: <n8f2ol$fis$1@dont-email.me>
 <d0d92e90-26bf-4b65-b634-cce452061312n@googlegroups.com>
 <fe20a520-acd7-2f8b-df80-09a71031b2a0@yahoo.co.uk>
Message-ID: <CA+vPKvmYDMg-YSfsLnBejK6+td7XDK+EXWd-0exx9Z4as+4Bow@mail.gmail.com>

"%matplotlib inline" is a magic command that changes how plots render when
working with IPython. Read more here: https://stackoverflow.com/a/43028034

The article you linked assumes you are working in an IPython shell, not
IDLE. This is common in the data science world.

You may already have IPython installed. Try running it from a command line
with `python -m IPython`. If that doesn't work, you can first install it
with `python -m pip install IPython`, then run the 1st command.

IPython is commonly used as a Jupyter Notebook kernel. See
https://jupyter-notebook-beginner-guide.readthedocs.io/en/latest/index.html
for more information about Jupyter Notebook.

I'd also recommend a newer version of python. Python 3.4 reached end of
life almost 5 years ago. Some of the packages used in the linked article no
longer officially support python 3.4. That doesn't necessarily mean that
you'll experienced issues using python 3.4, but much has changed in the 7
years since that article was written.

On Mon, Dec 25, 2023, 2:53?PM Alan Gauld via Python-list <
python-list at python.org> wrote:

> On 25/12/2023 05:34, geetanajali homes via Python-list wrote:
>
> >> import numpy as np
> >> import pandas as pd
> >> import random
> >> import matplotlib.pyplot as plt
> >> %matplotlib inline
> >>
> >> I get an error on the last line. I am running this code in Idle Python
> >> 3.4.4 Shell...
>
> Python names can't start with a % (its the modulo or
> string formatting operator).
>
> I know nothing of the innards of matplotlib so I can only
> suggest a closer examination of their tutorial information.
>
> --
> Alan G
> Author of the Learn to Program web site
> http://www.alan-g.me.uk/
> http://www.amazon.com/author/alan_gauld
> Follow my photo-blog on Flickr at:
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/alangauldphotos
>
>
> --
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
>

From rosuav at gmail.com  Mon Dec 25 15:32:33 2023
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Tue, 26 Dec 2023 07:32:33 +1100
Subject: >>> %matplotlib inline results in SyntaxError: invalid syntax
In-Reply-To: <CA+vPKvmYDMg-YSfsLnBejK6+td7XDK+EXWd-0exx9Z4as+4Bow@mail.gmail.com>
References: <n8f2ol$fis$1@dont-email.me>
 <d0d92e90-26bf-4b65-b634-cce452061312n@googlegroups.com>
 <fe20a520-acd7-2f8b-df80-09a71031b2a0@yahoo.co.uk>
 <CA+vPKvmYDMg-YSfsLnBejK6+td7XDK+EXWd-0exx9Z4as+4Bow@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmorq+5vqt3JFc==isv1UF-BOKEMjnKeEDSH5TMELOuqaA@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, 26 Dec 2023 at 07:27, Chris Grace via Python-list
<python-list at python.org> wrote:
> I'd also recommend a newer version of python. Python 3.4 reached end of
> life almost 5 years ago.

Uhh, putting this in perspective... until a spammer revived the thread
just now, it was asked, answered, and finished with, all back in 2016.

I don't think anyone's still waiting on answers here.

ChrisA

From python at mrabarnett.plus.com  Mon Dec 25 15:41:47 2023
From: python at mrabarnett.plus.com (MRAB)
Date: Mon, 25 Dec 2023 20:41:47 +0000
Subject: >>> %matplotlib inline results in SyntaxError: invalid syntax
In-Reply-To: <fe20a520-acd7-2f8b-df80-09a71031b2a0@yahoo.co.uk>
References: <n8f2ol$fis$1@dont-email.me>
 <d0d92e90-26bf-4b65-b634-cce452061312n@googlegroups.com>
 <fe20a520-acd7-2f8b-df80-09a71031b2a0@yahoo.co.uk>
Message-ID: <7a495321-2946-4df1-a30d-ff1396c1bfa1@mrabarnett.plus.com>

On 2023-12-25 19:53, Alan Gauld via Python-list wrote:
> On 25/12/2023 05:34, geetanajali homes via Python-list wrote:
> 
>>> import numpy as np 
>>> import pandas as pd 
>>> import random 
>>> import matplotlib.pyplot as plt 
>>> %matplotlib inline 
>>>
>>> I get an error on the last line. I am running this code in Idle Python 
>>> 3.4.4 Shell... 
> 
> Python names can't start with a % (its the modulo or
> string formatting operator).
> 
> I know nothing of the innards of matplotlib so I can only
> suggest a closer examination of their tutorial information.
> 
I believe it's a feature of Jupyter specifically. It won't work in IDLE.

From greg.gregwa at gmail.com  Wed Dec 27 04:53:42 2023
From: greg.gregwa at gmail.com (Greg Walters)
Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2023 03:53:42 -0600
Subject: How/where to store calibration values - written by program A, read by
 program B
Message-ID: <CACNDuY80=kAzAWXCzTPUxvx1jHv_Ce7k40qgx-161_i9sZ6eqw@mail.gmail.com>

Many years ago, Fredrik Lundh provided an answer for this question
on his website effbot.org.  Unfortunately that site has gone, but luckily,
it has been preserved in the "wayback machine"...

https://web.archive.org/web/20200724053442/http://effbot.org:80/pyfaq/how-do-i-share-global-variables-across-modules.htm

In short, create an empty file named something like 'config.py' or
'shared.py' in a folder that both scripts can use.
Import the file in both scripts.

import shared

Then when you want to share a value, use...

shared.variablename=3.14159

The file can then be accessed by both scripts.

The biggest caveat is that the shared variable MUST exist before it can be
examined or used (not surprising).

I sincerely hope this helps.

Greg
-- 
*My memory check bounced*



Greg Walters

From olegsivokon at gmail.com  Wed Dec 27 15:49:02 2023
From: olegsivokon at gmail.com (Left Right)
Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2023 21:49:02 +0100
Subject: What is Install-Paths-To in WHEEL file?
In-Reply-To: <EAC436D9-002D-4762-BCE4-841BD00B7A64@barrys-emacs.org>
References: <CAJQBtgkFLix4GJGQXbemTetA4Bw=VS_SWktOJE5_T3bDtwWgeg@mail.gmail.com>
 <EAC436D9-002D-4762-BCE4-841BD00B7A64@barrys-emacs.org>
Message-ID: <CAJQBtg=TDvmq7VMWfwS9tNNfFh1umWNaPUQrsEywahVB+dsobw@mail.gmail.com>

Thanks. I tried asking there.

On Sun, Dec 24, 2023 at 11:53?PM Barry <barry at barrys-emacs.org> wrote:
>
>
>
> On 24 Dec 2023, at 00:58, Left Right via Python-list <python-list at python.org> wrote:
>
> I'm trying to understand the contents of Wheel files
>
>
> There are lots of packaging experts that hang out on https://discuss.python.org/ you are likely to get a response there if not here replies.
>
> Barry
>

From bowman at montana.com  Thu Dec 28 00:20:07 2023
From: bowman at montana.com (rbowman)
Date: 28 Dec 2023 05:20:07 GMT
Subject: How/where to store calibration values - written by program A,
 read by program B
References: <CACNDuY80=kAzAWXCzTPUxvx1jHv_Ce7k40qgx-161_i9sZ6eqw@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.61.1703692934.2892.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <kv4es7Fl313U3@mid.individual.net>

On Wed, 27 Dec 2023 03:53:42 -0600, Greg Walters wrote:

> The biggest caveat is that the shared variable MUST exist before it can
> be examined or used (not surprising).

There are a few other questions. Let's say config.py contains a variable 
like 'font' that is a user set preference or a calibration value 
calculated by A to keep with the thread title. Assuming both scripts are 
running, how does the change get propagated to B after it is set in A and 
written to the shared file? Is there a mechanism to allow both scripts to 
make updates?

The easy way out is to assume the changes will be picked up when the 
scripts are restarted but this is not always acceptable.


From hjp-python at hjp.at  Thu Dec 28 09:29:42 2023
From: hjp-python at hjp.at (Peter J. Holzer)
Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2023 15:29:42 +0100
Subject: How/where to store calibration values - written by program A,
 read by program B
In-Reply-To: <kv4es7Fl313U3@mid.individual.net>
References: <CACNDuY80=kAzAWXCzTPUxvx1jHv_Ce7k40qgx-161_i9sZ6eqw@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.61.1703692934.2892.python-list@python.org>
 <kv4es7Fl313U3@mid.individual.net>
Message-ID: <20231228142942.uvkivmrvikvfyuxg@hjp.at>

On 2023-12-28 05:20:07 +0000, rbowman via Python-list wrote:
> On Wed, 27 Dec 2023 03:53:42 -0600, Greg Walters wrote:
> > The biggest caveat is that the shared variable MUST exist before it can
> > be examined or used (not surprising).
> 
> There are a few other questions. Let's say config.py contains a variable 
> like 'font' that is a user set preference or a calibration value 
> calculated by A to keep with the thread title. Assuming both scripts are 
> running, how does the change get propagated to B after it is set in A

It isn't. The variable is set purely in memory. This is a mechanism to
share a value between multiple modules used by the same process, not to
share between multiple processes (whether they run the same or different
scripts)

> and written to the shared file?

Nothing is ever written to a file.

You could of course write python files from a python script (in fact I
do this), but that's not what this pattern is about, AFAICS.

        hp

-- 
   _  | Peter J. Holzer    | Story must make more sense than reality.
|_|_) |                    |
| |   | hjp at hjp.at         |    -- Charles Stross, "Creative writing
__/   | http://www.hjp.at/ |       challenge!"
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From richard at damon-family.org  Thu Dec 28 10:49:52 2023
From: richard at damon-family.org (Richard Damon)
Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2023 10:49:52 -0500 (EST)
Subject: How/where to store calibration values - written by program A,
 read by program B
In-Reply-To: <kv4es7Fl313U3@mid.individual.net>
References: <CACNDuY80=kAzAWXCzTPUxvx1jHv_Ce7k40qgx-161_i9sZ6eqw@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.61.1703692934.2892.python-list@python.org>
 <kv4es7Fl313U3@mid.individual.net>
Message-ID: <171733467.1485510.1703778592235@email.ionos.com>



     On 12/28/2023 12:20 AM EST rbowman via Python-list
     <[1]python-list at python.org> wrote:


     On Wed, 27 Dec 2023 03:53:42 -0600, Greg Walters wrote:


       The biggest caveat is that the shared variable MUST exist before it
       can
       be examined or used (not surprising).

     There are a few other questions. Let's say config.py contains a variable
     like 'font' that is a user set preference or a calibration value
     calculated by A to keep with the thread title. Assuming both scripts are
     running, how does the change get propagated to B after it is set in A
     and
     written to the shared file? Is there a mechanism to allow both scripts
     to
     make updates?

     The easy way out is to assume the changes will be picked up when the
     scripts are restarted but this is not always acceptable.

     --
     [2]https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

   If one module does a:

   import config

   config.font = "New Value"

   Then every other module in that program that also did a

   import config

   will see the new value of that variable, as the assignment rebound the
   name in the module namespace to the new value.

   Note, it does NOT work if you did a

   from config import font

   font = "New Value"



   as that doesn't change the binding in the config module.

   IF you need to propagate to a different process, you need something
   different.


References

   Visible links
   1. mailto:python-list at python.org
   2. https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

From greg.gregwa at gmail.com  Thu Dec 28 13:03:03 2023
From: greg.gregwa at gmail.com (Greg Walters)
Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2023 12:03:03 -0600
Subject: How/where to store calibration values - written by program A,
 read by program B
Message-ID: <CACNDuY9mvzt9RrkQLLPdWTjQv6pkhe9GZyWM-vBh+ne1h5TvmA@mail.gmail.com>

First, one of the posters got it right.  Nothing is REALLY ever "written"
to the file.  Consider it a global variable that isn't a global variable.

Assume you have two modules, A and B.  Both modules import config.
Furthermore, let's assume that Module B 'writes' a variable called "font"...

shared.font="TkDefaultFont"

That information is immediately available to Module A.  All Module A has to
do is (assuming that it has been initialized previously) do something like
this...

myFont=shared.font

Now, myFont has the value "TkDefaultFont" in both modules A and B.

Further, let's assume that we need to pass a ttk::Theme to Module B...
Module A does a
shared.currentTheme = "clam"

Anytime Module B wants to check the value of the shared variable, it can
do...

MyCurrentTheme = shared.currentTheme.

You can also use a similar variable that will hold a flag boolean "saying"
something like

shared.UpdatedInfo = True

This can be tested at any time via any timer check, including a Tkinter
root.after type timer.  If the timer is true, simply go through your list
of shared variables (You should keep them in a list just to be sure) then
they can be checked on a timed basis.  Or just use ...

MyVariable=shared.VariableName anytime you need to make sure it's updated.
If the value is the same, it only wastes a few clock cycles.  However if it
has been updated, then you got the latest version.

This can work for any number of modules.  You aren't limited to just two.

I hope this helps.

Greg
-- 
*My memory check bounced*



Greg Walters

From fffelix.jan.yt at gmail.com  Thu Dec 28 20:05:10 2023
From: fffelix.jan.yt at gmail.com (=?UTF-8?B?RsOpbGl4IEFu?=)
Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2023 09:05:10 +0800
Subject: Are there any easy-to-use Visual Studio C# WinForms-like GUI
 designers in the Python world for Tk?
Message-ID: <uml605$ikhb$1@dont-email.me>

I'm used to C# WinForms, which has an easy-to-use drag-and-drop GUI 
designer in Visual Studio. Is there anything similar for Tk? How about 
Qt? What do you recommend as the easiest way to create GUI programs in 
Python, similar to the ease of use of C# WinForms?

From fffelix.jan.yt at gmail.com  Thu Dec 28 20:09:01 2023
From: fffelix.jan.yt at gmail.com (=?UTF-8?B?RsOpbGl4IEFu?=)
Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2023 09:09:01 +0800
Subject: Python 3.12.1, Windows 11: shebang line #!/usr/bin/env python3
 doesn't work any more
In-Reply-To: <mailman.54.1703479290.2892.python-list@python.org>
References: <f53edfe0-d67b-45a8-8604-a3d89734af58@web.de>
 <b22706a9-7200-446f-8a10-587f988a14c1@tompassin.net>
 <a253ca1e-47b2-0b75-bffe-cd04a97bde05@gmail.com>
 <0fdc10a9-a9c1-4f34-8b78-573c3ef18a7c@tompassin.net>
 <aba514c0-6352-5da1-23be-dd846e2223ef@gmail.com>
 <D450A6EE-5EC3-4CCA-BCEA-C91DAF27D723@dewhirst.com.au>
 <mailman.54.1703479290.2892.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <6e856c31-c8aa-4db6-a14a-0c1d2e4e3d8f@gmail.com>

On 2023-12-25 12:36, Mike Dewhirst wrote:
> 
> 3. You cannot trust Microsoft. You can trust Python Software Foundation. Python from PSF works the same in all environments - or if not it is a bug. Python from Microsoft is tweaked to satisfy their aforementioned strategy of locking in users to Windows.
> 

I strongly disagree with this. I don't get all the irrational hate for 
Microsoft that exists within the Linux community. In recent years, 
Microsoft has made great contributions to the everyday life of Linux 
users. VS Code is based on open source and available on Linux, .NET is 
now on Linux, Windows has WSL2 and Visual Studio Linux development tools 
to help you develop software for Linux, SQL Server (despite still being 
commercial software except for the Express and Developer versions) is on 
Linux, etc.

From rosuav at gmail.com  Thu Dec 28 20:32:00 2023
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2023 12:32:00 +1100
Subject: Python 3.12.1, Windows 11: shebang line #!/usr/bin/env python3
 doesn't work any more
In-Reply-To: <6e856c31-c8aa-4db6-a14a-0c1d2e4e3d8f@gmail.com>
References: <f53edfe0-d67b-45a8-8604-a3d89734af58@web.de>
 <b22706a9-7200-446f-8a10-587f988a14c1@tompassin.net>
 <a253ca1e-47b2-0b75-bffe-cd04a97bde05@gmail.com>
 <0fdc10a9-a9c1-4f34-8b78-573c3ef18a7c@tompassin.net>
 <aba514c0-6352-5da1-23be-dd846e2223ef@gmail.com>
 <D450A6EE-5EC3-4CCA-BCEA-C91DAF27D723@dewhirst.com.au>
 <mailman.54.1703479290.2892.python-list@python.org>
 <6e856c31-c8aa-4db6-a14a-0c1d2e4e3d8f@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmoPM0tErbMorbTdew90Ai1D4MF8g9PseczCskAYfPw=-g@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, 29 Dec 2023 at 12:23, F?lix An via Python-list
<python-list at python.org> wrote:
>
> On 2023-12-25 12:36, Mike Dewhirst wrote:
> >
> > 3. You cannot trust Microsoft. You can trust Python Software Foundation. Python from PSF works the same in all environments - or if not it is a bug. Python from Microsoft is tweaked to satisfy their aforementioned strategy of locking in users to Windows.
> >
>
> I strongly disagree with this. I don't get all the irrational hate for
> Microsoft that exists within the Linux community.

It's worth noting that Mike Dewhirst is NOT a spokesman for the Linux
community. One of the cool benefits freedom brings is that anyone's
allowed to be wrong :)

Not ALL of us hate Microsoft. I store the vast majority of my code on
GitHub, and it didn't make any difference when MS bought that company
(it was already a company, and their interests were always to make
money, and that was okay with me).

ChrisA

From Karsten.Hilbert at gmx.net  Fri Dec 29 07:15:29 2023
From: Karsten.Hilbert at gmx.net (Karsten Hilbert)
Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2023 13:15:29 +0100
Subject: mypy question
Message-ID: <ZY64YbzKqfGbZcpC@hermes.hilbert.loc>

Hi all,

I am not sure why mypy thinks this

gmPG2.py:554: error: Argument "queries" to "run_rw_queries" has incompatible type "List[Dict[str, str]]"; expected
"List[Dict[str, Union[str, List[Any], Dict[str, Any]]]]"  [arg-type]
                    rows, idx = run_rw_queries(link_obj = conn, queries = queries, return_data = True)
                                                                          ^~~~~~~

should be flagged. The intent is for "queries" to be

a list
	of dicts
		with keys of str
		and values of
			str OR
			list of anything OR
			dict with
				keys of str
				and values of anything

I'd have thunk list[dict[str,str]] matches that ?

This is on Python 3.11.2 with mypy 1.0.1 on Debian.

Karsten
--
GPG  40BE 5B0E C98E 1713 AFA6  5BC0 3BEA AC80 7D4F C89B

From Karsten.Hilbert at gmx.net  Fri Dec 29 07:33:45 2023
From: Karsten.Hilbert at gmx.net (Karsten Hilbert)
Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2023 13:33:45 +0100
Subject: mypy question
In-Reply-To: <ZY64YbzKqfGbZcpC@hermes.hilbert.loc>
References: <ZY64YbzKqfGbZcpC@hermes.hilbert.loc>
Message-ID: <ZY68qdmIszQaWpto@hermes.hilbert.loc>

Am Fri, Dec 29, 2023 at 01:15:29PM +0100 schrieb Karsten Hilbert via Python-list:

> I am not sure why mypy thinks this
>
> gmPG2.py:554: error: Argument "queries" to "run_rw_queries" has incompatible type "List[Dict[str, str]]"; expected
> "List[Dict[str, Union[str, List[Any], Dict[str, Any]]]]"  [arg-type]
>                     rows, idx = run_rw_queries(link_obj = conn, queries = queries, return_data = True)
>                                                                           ^~~~~~~
>
> should be flagged. The intent is for "queries" to be
>
> a list
> 	of dicts
> 		with keys of str
> 		and values of
> 			str OR
> 			list of anything OR
> 			dict with
> 				keys of str
> 				and values of anything
>
> I'd have thunk list[dict[str,str]] matches that ?
>
> This is on Python 3.11.2 with mypy 1.0.1 on Debian.

For completeness, this was the mypy call signature:

	mypy --pretty --allow-redefinition --no-strict-optional --ignore-missing-imports --follow-imports silent --show-error-codes --warn-unused-ignores gmPG2.py

Karsten
--
GPG  40BE 5B0E C98E 1713 AFA6  5BC0 3BEA AC80 7D4F C89B

From olegsivokon at gmail.com  Fri Dec 29 08:02:09 2023
From: olegsivokon at gmail.com (Left Right)
Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2023 14:02:09 +0100
Subject: What is Install-Paths-To in WHEEL file?
In-Reply-To: <CAJQBtg=TDvmq7VMWfwS9tNNfFh1umWNaPUQrsEywahVB+dsobw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJQBtgkFLix4GJGQXbemTetA4Bw=VS_SWktOJE5_T3bDtwWgeg@mail.gmail.com>
 <EAC436D9-002D-4762-BCE4-841BD00B7A64@barrys-emacs.org>
 <CAJQBtg=TDvmq7VMWfwS9tNNfFh1umWNaPUQrsEywahVB+dsobw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJQBtgk1Th9kA6KVq4TS1E4ZKs7HmV_pFmz4Xba181fX+Usywg@mail.gmail.com>

Wow. That place turned out to be the toxic pit I didn't expect.

It's a shame that a public discussion of public goods was entrusted to
a bunch of gatekeepers with no sense of responsibility for the thing
they keep the keys to.

On Wed, Dec 27, 2023 at 9:49?PM Left Right <olegsivokon at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Thanks. I tried asking there.
>
> On Sun, Dec 24, 2023 at 11:53?PM Barry <barry at barrys-emacs.org> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > On 24 Dec 2023, at 00:58, Left Right via Python-list <python-list at python.org> wrote:
> >
> > I'm trying to understand the contents of Wheel files
> >
> >
> > There are lots of packaging experts that hang out on https://discuss.python.org/ you are likely to get a response there if not here replies.
> >
> > Barry
> >

From oscar.j.benjamin at gmail.com  Fri Dec 29 08:55:18 2023
From: oscar.j.benjamin at gmail.com (Oscar Benjamin)
Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2023 13:55:18 +0000
Subject: What is Install-Paths-To in WHEEL file?
In-Reply-To: <CAJQBtgk1Th9kA6KVq4TS1E4ZKs7HmV_pFmz4Xba181fX+Usywg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJQBtgkFLix4GJGQXbemTetA4Bw=VS_SWktOJE5_T3bDtwWgeg@mail.gmail.com>
 <EAC436D9-002D-4762-BCE4-841BD00B7A64@barrys-emacs.org>
 <CAJQBtg=TDvmq7VMWfwS9tNNfFh1umWNaPUQrsEywahVB+dsobw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJQBtgk1Th9kA6KVq4TS1E4ZKs7HmV_pFmz4Xba181fX+Usywg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAHVvXxR4usiht8G7h1CucyuKm+4os=kzFYijLKzHQTqNz8GdOw@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, 29 Dec 2023 at 13:04, Left Right via Python-list
<python-list at python.org> wrote:
>
> Wow. That place turned out to be the toxic pit I didn't expect.
>
> It's a shame that a public discussion of public goods was entrusted to
> a bunch of gatekeepers with no sense of responsibility for the thing
> they keep the keys to.

Here is the discussion referred to:
https://discuss.python.org/t/what-is-install-paths-to-in-wheel-file/42005

I don't see anything "toxic" in that discussion. You asked questions
and people took the time to give clear answers.

The basic answer to your question is that PEP 491 was never completed
and so there is no accepted specification of the Install-Paths-To
feature that it had been intended to introduce. The PEP text itself is
reasonably clear about this and also links to the up to date
specifications:
https://peps.python.org/pep-0491/#pep-deferral

Instead for understanding the wheel format the appropriate document is:
https://packaging.python.org/en/latest/specifications/binary-distribution-format/

That document does not mention Install-Paths-To because it documents
the standards as defined and accepted via the PEP process but PEP 491
was never accepted.

--
Oscar

From olegsivokon at gmail.com  Fri Dec 29 09:14:54 2023
From: olegsivokon at gmail.com (Left Right)
Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2023 15:14:54 +0100
Subject: What is Install-Paths-To in WHEEL file?
In-Reply-To: <CAHVvXxR4usiht8G7h1CucyuKm+4os=kzFYijLKzHQTqNz8GdOw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJQBtgkFLix4GJGQXbemTetA4Bw=VS_SWktOJE5_T3bDtwWgeg@mail.gmail.com>
 <EAC436D9-002D-4762-BCE4-841BD00B7A64@barrys-emacs.org>
 <CAJQBtg=TDvmq7VMWfwS9tNNfFh1umWNaPUQrsEywahVB+dsobw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJQBtgk1Th9kA6KVq4TS1E4ZKs7HmV_pFmz4Xba181fX+Usywg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAHVvXxR4usiht8G7h1CucyuKm+4os=kzFYijLKzHQTqNz8GdOw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJQBtgnOr=8eDBE8PavHo3+Yz_faznrYOAq3+tioHZV+x+zC9A@mail.gmail.com>

That's not the discussion that was toxic. But the one that was --
doesn't exist anymore since the forum owners deleted it.

The part where the forum owners delete whatever they disagree with is
the toxic part.

On Fri, Dec 29, 2023 at 2:57?PM Oscar Benjamin via Python-list
<python-list at python.org> wrote:
>
> On Fri, 29 Dec 2023 at 13:04, Left Right via Python-list
> <python-list at python.org> wrote:
> >
> > Wow. That place turned out to be the toxic pit I didn't expect.
> >
> > It's a shame that a public discussion of public goods was entrusted to
> > a bunch of gatekeepers with no sense of responsibility for the thing
> > they keep the keys to.
>
> Here is the discussion referred to:
> https://discuss.python.org/t/what-is-install-paths-to-in-wheel-file/42005
>
> I don't see anything "toxic" in that discussion. You asked questions
> and people took the time to give clear answers.
>
> The basic answer to your question is that PEP 491 was never completed
> and so there is no accepted specification of the Install-Paths-To
> feature that it had been intended to introduce. The PEP text itself is
> reasonably clear about this and also links to the up to date
> specifications:
> https://peps.python.org/pep-0491/#pep-deferral
>
> Instead for understanding the wheel format the appropriate document is:
> https://packaging.python.org/en/latest/specifications/binary-distribution-format/
>
> That document does not mention Install-Paths-To because it documents
> the standards as defined and accepted via the PEP process but PEP 491
> was never accepted.
>
> --
> Oscar
> --
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

From rosuav at gmail.com  Fri Dec 29 09:20:08 2023
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Sat, 30 Dec 2023 01:20:08 +1100
Subject: What is Install-Paths-To in WHEEL file?
In-Reply-To: <CAJQBtgnOr=8eDBE8PavHo3+Yz_faznrYOAq3+tioHZV+x+zC9A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJQBtgkFLix4GJGQXbemTetA4Bw=VS_SWktOJE5_T3bDtwWgeg@mail.gmail.com>
 <EAC436D9-002D-4762-BCE4-841BD00B7A64@barrys-emacs.org>
 <CAJQBtg=TDvmq7VMWfwS9tNNfFh1umWNaPUQrsEywahVB+dsobw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJQBtgk1Th9kA6KVq4TS1E4ZKs7HmV_pFmz4Xba181fX+Usywg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAHVvXxR4usiht8G7h1CucyuKm+4os=kzFYijLKzHQTqNz8GdOw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJQBtgnOr=8eDBE8PavHo3+Yz_faznrYOAq3+tioHZV+x+zC9A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmp_vmhQ9k2XWQD=XWvtnrVJp8oBc1=G7k4PNg3xscTbsA@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, 30 Dec 2023 at 01:16, Left Right via Python-list
<python-list at python.org> wrote:
>
> That's not the discussion that was toxic. But the one that was --
> doesn't exist anymore since the forum owners deleted it.
>
> The part where the forum owners delete whatever they disagree with is
> the toxic part.

Yeah, because you have the God-given RIGHT to be able to say anything
you like, on anyone's web site, and nobody's allowed to delete
anything you say! That's how it goes, right?

You're most welcome to avoid the Python Discourse if you dislike
moderated forums, but do be aware that python-list is ALSO moderated,
and that completely unmoderated forums are far far more toxic than
anything I've seen on the Python Discourse.

Don't let the door hit you on the way out.

ChrisA

From olegsivokon at gmail.com  Fri Dec 29 09:37:05 2023
From: olegsivokon at gmail.com (Left Right)
Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2023 15:37:05 +0100
Subject: What is Install-Paths-To in WHEEL file?
In-Reply-To: <CAPTjJmp_vmhQ9k2XWQD=XWvtnrVJp8oBc1=G7k4PNg3xscTbsA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJQBtgkFLix4GJGQXbemTetA4Bw=VS_SWktOJE5_T3bDtwWgeg@mail.gmail.com>
 <EAC436D9-002D-4762-BCE4-841BD00B7A64@barrys-emacs.org>
 <CAJQBtg=TDvmq7VMWfwS9tNNfFh1umWNaPUQrsEywahVB+dsobw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJQBtgk1Th9kA6KVq4TS1E4ZKs7HmV_pFmz4Xba181fX+Usywg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAHVvXxR4usiht8G7h1CucyuKm+4os=kzFYijLKzHQTqNz8GdOw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJQBtgnOr=8eDBE8PavHo3+Yz_faznrYOAq3+tioHZV+x+zC9A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPTjJmp_vmhQ9k2XWQD=XWvtnrVJp8oBc1=G7k4PNg3xscTbsA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJQBtgmXfHD3p4pZ5HwR2tnoFQDGbA=p1WpDUbu-2kiZ0Cba+w@mail.gmail.com>

> Yeah, because you have the God-given RIGHT to be able to say anything
> you like, on anyone's web site, and nobody's allowed to delete
> anything you say! That's how it goes, right?

I don't believe in god, and I don't believe he / she can give me
rights.  What I believe in is that Python is a public good, and its
status is enshrined in the license it uses. I also believe that Python
Foundation and PyPA are the public bodies that are meant to, beside
other things, make sure that the public good stays that way.  Me,
being a member of the public, for whom the good is mean, means I have
a right to discuss, complain or argue about the nature or function of
this good.  I, or you, or anyone else don't need god to make this
happen. The rights I'm talking about are a consequence of the license
that governs Python and various satellite projects.

> Don't let the door hit you on the way out.

Oh, great. Here we go again.  You don't even know what this discussion
is about, but decided to be rude.  I mean, you don't have to be
curious, and there's no need for you to try to figure out what this is
about, but being rude without provocation?  Just why?  What do you
stand to gain from this?

From mats at wichmann.us  Fri Dec 29 09:49:17 2023
From: mats at wichmann.us (Mats Wichmann)
Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2023 07:49:17 -0700
Subject: mypy question
In-Reply-To: <ZY64YbzKqfGbZcpC@hermes.hilbert.loc>
References: <ZY64YbzKqfGbZcpC@hermes.hilbert.loc>
Message-ID: <fd6bbad8-2736-4305-982d-eabbf212a920@wichmann.us>

On 12/29/23 05:15, Karsten Hilbert via Python-list wrote:
> Hi all,
> 
> I am not sure why mypy thinks this
> 
> gmPG2.py:554: error: Argument "queries" to "run_rw_queries" has incompatible type "List[Dict[str, str]]"; expected
> "List[Dict[str, Union[str, List[Any], Dict[str, Any]]]]"  [arg-type]
>                      rows, idx = run_rw_queries(link_obj = conn, queries = queries, return_data = True)
>                                                                            ^~~~~~~
> 
> should be flagged. The intent is for "queries" to be
> 
> a list
> 	of dicts
> 		with keys of str
> 		and values of
> 			str OR
> 			list of anything OR
> 			dict with
> 				keys of str
> 				and values of anything
> 
> I'd have thunk list[dict[str,str]] matches that ?

Dict[str, str] means the key type and value type should both be strings, 
but in your retelling above you indicate lots of possible value types... 
actually the mypy guess seems to be a pretty good recreation of your 
psuedo-code description.

From Karsten.Hilbert at gmx.net  Fri Dec 29 10:02:01 2023
From: Karsten.Hilbert at gmx.net (Karsten Hilbert)
Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2023 16:02:01 +0100
Subject: mypy question
In-Reply-To: <fd6bbad8-2736-4305-982d-eabbf212a920@wichmann.us>
References: <ZY64YbzKqfGbZcpC@hermes.hilbert.loc>
 <fd6bbad8-2736-4305-982d-eabbf212a920@wichmann.us>
Message-ID: <ZY7faSj-OA-lDqxC@hermes.hilbert.loc>

Am Fri, Dec 29, 2023 at 07:49:17AM -0700 schrieb Mats Wichmann via Python-list:

> >I am not sure why mypy thinks this
> >
> >gmPG2.py:554: error: Argument "queries" to "run_rw_queries" has incompatible type "List[Dict[str, str]]"; expected
> >"List[Dict[str, Union[str, List[Any], Dict[str, Any]]]]"  [arg-type]
> >                     rows, idx = run_rw_queries(link_obj = conn, queries = queries, return_data = True)
> >                                                                           ^~~~~~~
> >
> >should be flagged. The intent is for "queries" to be
> >
> >a list
> >	of dicts
> >		with keys of str
> >		and values of
> >			str OR
> >			list of anything OR
> >			dict with
> >				keys of str
> >				and values of anything
> >
> >I'd have thunk list[dict[str,str]] matches that ?
>
> Dict[str, str] means the key type and value type should both be strings,

Indeed, I know that much, list[dict[str, str]] is what is getting
passed in in this particular invocation of run_rw_queries().

For what it's worth here's the signature of that function:

	def run_rw_queries (
		link_obj:_TLnkObj=None,
		queries:list[dict[str, str | list | dict[str, Any]]]=None,
		end_tx:bool=False,
		return_data:bool=None,
		get_col_idx:bool=False,
		verbose:bool=False
	) -> tuple[list[dbapi.extras.DictRow], dict[str, int] | None]:

Given that I would have thought that passing in
list[dict[str, str]] for "queries" ought to be type safe.
Mypy indicates otherwise which I am not grokking as to why.

> but in your
> retelling above you indicate lots of possible value types... actually the mypy guess
> seems to be a pretty good recreation of your psuedo-code description.

I agree that mypy's grasp of my intent from

	queries:list[dict[str, str | list | dict[str, Any]]]=None,

into

	"List[Dict[str, Union[str, List[Any], Dict[str, Any]]]]"

seems accurate. I just don't understand why list[dict[str,
str]] should not pass that construct.

Karsten
--
GPG  40BE 5B0E C98E 1713 AFA6  5BC0 3BEA AC80 7D4F C89B

From grant.b.edwards at gmail.com  Fri Dec 29 12:01:24 2023
From: grant.b.edwards at gmail.com (Grant Edwards)
Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2023 09:01:24 -0800 (PST)
Subject: How/where to store calibration values - written by program A,
 read by program B
References: <CACNDuY80=kAzAWXCzTPUxvx1jHv_Ce7k40qgx-161_i9sZ6eqw@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.61.1703692934.2892.python-list@python.org>
 <kv4es7Fl313U3@mid.individual.net> <20231228142942.uvkivmrvikvfyuxg@hjp.at>
Message-ID: <658efb64.050a0220.dce6e.1402@mx.google.com>

On 2023-12-28, Peter J. Holzer via Python-list <python-list at python.org> wrote:
> On 2023-12-28 05:20:07 +0000, rbowman via Python-list wrote:
>> On Wed, 27 Dec 2023 03:53:42 -0600, Greg Walters wrote:
>> > The biggest caveat is that the shared variable MUST exist before it can
>> > be examined or used (not surprising).
>> 
>> There are a few other questions. Let's say config.py contains a variable 
>> like 'font' that is a user set preference or a calibration value 
>> calculated by A to keep with the thread title. Assuming both scripts are 
>> running, how does the change get propagated to B after it is set in A
>
> It isn't. The variable is set purely in memory. This is a mechanism to
> share a value between multiple modules used by the same process, not to
> share between multiple processes (whether they run the same or different
> scripts)
>
>> and written to the shared file?
>
> Nothing is ever written to a file.

Then how does it help the OP to propogate clibration values from one
program to another or from one program run to the next run?

> You could of course write python files from a python script (in fact I
> do this), but that's not what this pattern is about, AFAICS.



From greg.gregwa at gmail.com  Fri Dec 29 12:24:04 2023
From: greg.gregwa at gmail.com (Greg Walters)
Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2023 11:24:04 -0600
Subject: Subject: Are there any easy-to-use Visual Studio C# WinForms-like
 GUI designers in the Python world for Tk?
Message-ID: <CACNDuY9Uss-dKPJ0p-VT-V4Z=MTLYYLzYKD7TsRc_zXNkyD8Nw@mail.gmail.com>

> I'm used to C# WinForms, which has an easy-to-use drag-and-drop
GUI designer in Visual Studio. Is there anything similar for Tk? How
about Qt? What do you recommend as the easiest way to create GUI programs
in Python, similar to the ease of use of C# WinForms?

I can't say much for Qt other than there is a GUI designer for it, but I
don't know much about it.

As to the portion of your question about Python and Tkinter, YES!
The project is called PAGE and it is a drag and drop designer using the Tk
and ttk toolkits (basically Tkinter).

It's been around for many years, is completely FREE and open source, the
source code is included and works on Windows, Linux and Mac OS.

The current version is 7.6 and you can find it at
https://sourceforge.net/projects/page/ and it has been downloaded over 2000
times just in December, and over 26,000 times in 2023.

There is a TONNE of examples, full documentation and a number of
tutorials.  The Sourceforge acts as the main help site, but there is also a
Discord site dedicated to help and support.

I sincerely hope this helps!

Greg Walters


-- 
*My memory check bounced*



Greg Walters

From mats at wichmann.us  Fri Dec 29 12:31:56 2023
From: mats at wichmann.us (Mats Wichmann)
Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2023 10:31:56 -0700
Subject: Are there any easy-to-use Visual Studio C# WinForms-like GUI
 designers in the Python world for Tk?
In-Reply-To: <uml605$ikhb$1@dont-email.me>
References: <uml605$ikhb$1@dont-email.me>
Message-ID: <99eafd6e-00d9-4c50-8733-0f3d806dfe01@wichmann.us>

On 12/28/23 18:05, F?lix An via Python-list wrote:
> I'm used to C# WinForms, which has an easy-to-use drag-and-drop GUI 
> designer in Visual Studio. Is there anything similar for Tk? How about 
> Qt? What do you recommend as the easiest way to create GUI programs in 
> Python, similar to the ease of use of C# WinForms?

Qt has a long-standing Designer tool.

I was pretty sure there was nothing for tkinter, but it seems at least 
someone tried:

https://pypi.org/project/tkdesigner/

and someone has tried a web-based one (looks like it may help to read 
Chinese for that one)

https://visualtk.com/



From mats at wichmann.us  Fri Dec 29 13:04:59 2023
From: mats at wichmann.us (Mats Wichmann)
Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2023 11:04:59 -0700
Subject: mypy question
In-Reply-To: <ZY7faSj-OA-lDqxC@hermes.hilbert.loc>
References: <ZY64YbzKqfGbZcpC@hermes.hilbert.loc>
 <fd6bbad8-2736-4305-982d-eabbf212a920@wichmann.us>
 <ZY7faSj-OA-lDqxC@hermes.hilbert.loc>
Message-ID: <9b180ed9-0393-4db4-a45c-391c115aaeef@wichmann.us>

On 12/29/23 08:02, Karsten Hilbert via Python-list wrote:

>> Dict[str, str] means the key type and value type should both be strings,
> 
> Indeed, I know that much, list[dict[str, str]] is what is getting
> passed in in this particular invocation of run_rw_queries().
> 
> For what it's worth here's the signature of that function:
> 
> 	def run_rw_queries (
> 		link_obj:_TLnkObj=None,
> 		queries:list[dict[str, str | list | dict[str, Any]]]=None,
> 		end_tx:bool=False,
> 		return_data:bool=None,
> 		get_col_idx:bool=False,
> 		verbose:bool=False
> 	) -> tuple[list[dbapi.extras.DictRow], dict[str, int] | None]:
> 
> Given that I would have thought that passing in
> list[dict[str, str]] for "queries" ought to be type safe.
> Mypy indicates otherwise which I am not grokking as to why.

ah... didn't grok what you were asking, sorry - ignore my attempt then. 
So you are passing something that has been typed more narrowly than the 
function parameter. Can you use a TypeGuard here?

From rosuav at gmail.com  Fri Dec 29 14:06:00 2023
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Sat, 30 Dec 2023 06:06:00 +1100
Subject: What is Install-Paths-To in WHEEL file?
In-Reply-To: <CAJQBtgmXfHD3p4pZ5HwR2tnoFQDGbA=p1WpDUbu-2kiZ0Cba+w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJQBtgkFLix4GJGQXbemTetA4Bw=VS_SWktOJE5_T3bDtwWgeg@mail.gmail.com>
 <EAC436D9-002D-4762-BCE4-841BD00B7A64@barrys-emacs.org>
 <CAJQBtg=TDvmq7VMWfwS9tNNfFh1umWNaPUQrsEywahVB+dsobw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJQBtgk1Th9kA6KVq4TS1E4ZKs7HmV_pFmz4Xba181fX+Usywg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAHVvXxR4usiht8G7h1CucyuKm+4os=kzFYijLKzHQTqNz8GdOw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJQBtgnOr=8eDBE8PavHo3+Yz_faznrYOAq3+tioHZV+x+zC9A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPTjJmp_vmhQ9k2XWQD=XWvtnrVJp8oBc1=G7k4PNg3xscTbsA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJQBtgmXfHD3p4pZ5HwR2tnoFQDGbA=p1WpDUbu-2kiZ0Cba+w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmrFunkr18kjJGST-j6FRybPhF8vsKuMVN4c0Hc3sxva4A@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, 30 Dec 2023 at 01:37, Left Right <olegsivokon at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Yeah, because you have the God-given RIGHT to be able to say anything
> > you like, on anyone's web site, and nobody's allowed to delete
> > anything you say! That's how it goes, right?
>
> I don't believe in god, and I don't believe he / she can give me
> rights.  What I believe in is that Python is a public good, and its
> status is enshrined in the license it uses.

Is it? I'm not a lawyer, but I really don't think that that's what the
license entitles you to. Can you quote the relevant parts of it?

> > Don't let the door hit you on the way out.
>
> Oh, great. Here we go again.  You don't even know what this discussion
> is about, but decided to be rude.

Oh trust me, I saw the discussion previously. I know what it is about.
And when it comes to rudeness, let's just say, you reap what you sow.

ChrisA

From olegsivokon at gmail.com  Fri Dec 29 14:57:42 2023
From: olegsivokon at gmail.com (Left Right)
Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2023 20:57:42 +0100
Subject: What is Install-Paths-To in WHEEL file?
In-Reply-To: <CAPTjJmrFunkr18kjJGST-j6FRybPhF8vsKuMVN4c0Hc3sxva4A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJQBtgkFLix4GJGQXbemTetA4Bw=VS_SWktOJE5_T3bDtwWgeg@mail.gmail.com>
 <EAC436D9-002D-4762-BCE4-841BD00B7A64@barrys-emacs.org>
 <CAJQBtg=TDvmq7VMWfwS9tNNfFh1umWNaPUQrsEywahVB+dsobw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJQBtgk1Th9kA6KVq4TS1E4ZKs7HmV_pFmz4Xba181fX+Usywg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAHVvXxR4usiht8G7h1CucyuKm+4os=kzFYijLKzHQTqNz8GdOw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJQBtgnOr=8eDBE8PavHo3+Yz_faznrYOAq3+tioHZV+x+zC9A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPTjJmp_vmhQ9k2XWQD=XWvtnrVJp8oBc1=G7k4PNg3xscTbsA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJQBtgmXfHD3p4pZ5HwR2tnoFQDGbA=p1WpDUbu-2kiZ0Cba+w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPTjJmrFunkr18kjJGST-j6FRybPhF8vsKuMVN4c0Hc3sxva4A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJQBtgmR1-BtTFVC5ah7weeHXL1ZxB8YAC-Nexh961HRBrgjNA@mail.gmail.com>

Previously you wrote:

> Here is the discussion referred to:
https://discuss.python.org/t/what-is-install-paths-to-in-wheel-file/42005

This illustrates you had no idea what the discussion was about and now
you write:

> Oh trust me, I saw the discussion previously.

Both cannot be true at the same time, unless you had some kind of very
brief memory loss.

> I'm not a lawyer,

Neither am I. All I have to work with is my understanding of the
English language.  Here's how I come to my conclusions.

The Python license grants all intellectual rights to Python to PSF (an
American NGO, a.k.a. 501(c) organization), which, essentially, can be
characterized as an organization for public good.

This is what it has to say about itself in its mission statement:

> Mission

> The mission of the Python Software Foundation is to promote, protect,
> and advance the Python programming language, and to support and
> facilitate the growth of a diverse and international community of Python
> programmers.

it also elaborates what it means by "diverse" as follows:

>

Diversity

> The Python Software Foundation and the global Python community
> welcome and encourage participation by everyone. Our community
> is based on mutual respect, tolerance, and encouragement, and we
> are working to help each other live up to these principles. We want
> our community to be more diverse: whoever you are, and whatever
> your background, we welcome you.

My understanding is that "welcome and encourage participation by
everyone" is in stark contradiction to banning someone disagreeing
with you.  Note, I haven't offended anyone.  I haven't even spoken to
anyone who found themselves being offended.  All I did was to describe
in some detail the reasons why some projects endorsed by PyPA are a
bad idea.  You, as well as anyone else, are welcome to believe
differently.  This is the whole point of diversity allegedly promoted
by PSF. I will think you are wrong, but it's not my place to shut you
up.  Neither is it the place of people in charge of the public
discussion of Python or its satellite projects.  They are not there to
decide who's right and who gets the stage. Their role is to preserve
the public good, which any discussion about subjects relevant to
Python would be.

What happens, however, and this is the unfortunate fate of popular
projects, is that a small group of people consolidate all means of
control in their hands, and the more control they get, the easier it
is to get even more of it.  The natural factor that would prevent this
from happening: the community dissatisfaction with their role becomes
increasingly less powerful as soon as more and more members of the
community come to depend on the good provided by the community.

If this discuss.python.org is representative of the Python community
as a whole, then, unfortunately, it means that the goals PSF set for
it are fading into the distance, rather than becoming more attainable.

From rosuav at gmail.com  Fri Dec 29 15:19:13 2023
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Sat, 30 Dec 2023 07:19:13 +1100
Subject: What is Install-Paths-To in WHEEL file?
In-Reply-To: <CAJQBtgmR1-BtTFVC5ah7weeHXL1ZxB8YAC-Nexh961HRBrgjNA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJQBtgkFLix4GJGQXbemTetA4Bw=VS_SWktOJE5_T3bDtwWgeg@mail.gmail.com>
 <EAC436D9-002D-4762-BCE4-841BD00B7A64@barrys-emacs.org>
 <CAJQBtg=TDvmq7VMWfwS9tNNfFh1umWNaPUQrsEywahVB+dsobw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJQBtgk1Th9kA6KVq4TS1E4ZKs7HmV_pFmz4Xba181fX+Usywg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAHVvXxR4usiht8G7h1CucyuKm+4os=kzFYijLKzHQTqNz8GdOw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJQBtgnOr=8eDBE8PavHo3+Yz_faznrYOAq3+tioHZV+x+zC9A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPTjJmp_vmhQ9k2XWQD=XWvtnrVJp8oBc1=G7k4PNg3xscTbsA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJQBtgmXfHD3p4pZ5HwR2tnoFQDGbA=p1WpDUbu-2kiZ0Cba+w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPTjJmrFunkr18kjJGST-j6FRybPhF8vsKuMVN4c0Hc3sxva4A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJQBtgmR1-BtTFVC5ah7weeHXL1ZxB8YAC-Nexh961HRBrgjNA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmq6ZxCe-f8e_Bah+fyD6HczaEZ7xuRZ5r9gH=E2+MDP0A@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, 30 Dec 2023 at 06:58, Left Right <olegsivokon at gmail.com> wrote:
> My understanding is that "welcome and encourage participation by
> everyone" is in stark contradiction to banning someone disagreeing
> with you.

Then your understanding is flat-out wrong. Encouraging participation
by everyone DOES mean deleting what is unproductive, offensive, and
likely to discourage participation.

Your entire argument is based on misconceptions. Go play in your own
sandbox somewhere, see if you can make something where everyone is
welcome, including the toxic AND the people who dislike toxicity.

ChrisA

From Karsten.Hilbert at gmx.net  Fri Dec 29 15:33:36 2023
From: Karsten.Hilbert at gmx.net (Karsten Hilbert)
Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2023 21:33:36 +0100
Subject: mypy question
In-Reply-To: <9b180ed9-0393-4db4-a45c-391c115aaeef@wichmann.us>
References: <ZY64YbzKqfGbZcpC@hermes.hilbert.loc>
 <fd6bbad8-2736-4305-982d-eabbf212a920@wichmann.us>
 <ZY7faSj-OA-lDqxC@hermes.hilbert.loc>
 <9b180ed9-0393-4db4-a45c-391c115aaeef@wichmann.us>
Message-ID: <ZY8tIBxBBrYEoHQc@hermes.hilbert.loc>

Am Fri, Dec 29, 2023 at 11:04:59AM -0700 schrieb Mats Wichmann via Python-list:

> >For what it's worth here's the signature of that function:
> >
> >	def run_rw_queries (
> >		link_obj:_TLnkObj=None,
> >		queries:list[dict[str, str | list | dict[str, Any]]]=None,
> >		end_tx:bool=False,
> >		return_data:bool=None,
> >		get_col_idx:bool=False,
> >		verbose:bool=False
> >	) -> tuple[list[dbapi.extras.DictRow], dict[str, int] | None]:
> >
> >Given that I would have thought that passing in
> >list[dict[str, str]] for "queries" ought to be type safe.
> >Mypy indicates otherwise which I am not grokking as to why.
>
> ah... didn't grok what you were asking, sorry - ignore my attempt then.

Never mind, the attempt to help is appreciated.

> So you are passing something that has been typed more
> narrowly than the function parameter.

That would then sort of skirt on violation of the Liskov
principle, of which I learned while trying to research this
mypy behaviour.

However, I would not think the above to be a narrowing-down
as it just *selects* one of the explicitely "legal" options.

	list[dict[str, str | list | dict[str, Any]]]

should AFAICT expand to:

	list[dict[str, dict[str, Any]]]

		OR

	list[dict[str, list]]

		OR

	list[dict[str, str]]

the last of which should provide coverage of

	[{'some key': 'some value'}]

> Can you use a TypeGuard here?

Not from what I understand about them...

Karsten
--
GPG  40BE 5B0E C98E 1713 AFA6  5BC0 3BEA AC80 7D4F C89B

From jfong at ms4.hinet.net  Fri Dec 29 15:29:09 2023
From: jfong at ms4.hinet.net (Jach Feng)
Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2023 12:29:09 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Are there any easy-to-use Visual Studio C# WinForms-like GUI
 designers in the Python world for Tk?
In-Reply-To: <uml605$ikhb$1@dont-email.me>
References: <uml605$ikhb$1@dont-email.me>
Message-ID: <6b03424e-77a9-4a83-a4d9-f46c485f7972n@googlegroups.com>

F?lix An ? 2023?12?29? ?????2:05:24 [UTC+13] ??????
> I'm used to C# WinForms, which has an easy-to-use drag-and-drop GUI 
> designer in Visual Studio. Is there anything similar for Tk? How about 
> Qt? What do you recommend as the easiest way to create GUI programs in 
> Python, similar to the ease of use of C# WinForms?
For tkinter, there is a GUI designer,
http://page.sourceforge.net/

From olegsivokon at gmail.com  Fri Dec 29 17:35:31 2023
From: olegsivokon at gmail.com (Left Right)
Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2023 23:35:31 +0100
Subject: What is Install-Paths-To in WHEEL file?
In-Reply-To: <CAPTjJmq6ZxCe-f8e_Bah+fyD6HczaEZ7xuRZ5r9gH=E2+MDP0A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJQBtgkFLix4GJGQXbemTetA4Bw=VS_SWktOJE5_T3bDtwWgeg@mail.gmail.com>
 <EAC436D9-002D-4762-BCE4-841BD00B7A64@barrys-emacs.org>
 <CAJQBtg=TDvmq7VMWfwS9tNNfFh1umWNaPUQrsEywahVB+dsobw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJQBtgk1Th9kA6KVq4TS1E4ZKs7HmV_pFmz4Xba181fX+Usywg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAHVvXxR4usiht8G7h1CucyuKm+4os=kzFYijLKzHQTqNz8GdOw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJQBtgnOr=8eDBE8PavHo3+Yz_faznrYOAq3+tioHZV+x+zC9A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPTjJmp_vmhQ9k2XWQD=XWvtnrVJp8oBc1=G7k4PNg3xscTbsA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJQBtgmXfHD3p4pZ5HwR2tnoFQDGbA=p1WpDUbu-2kiZ0Cba+w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPTjJmrFunkr18kjJGST-j6FRybPhF8vsKuMVN4c0Hc3sxva4A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJQBtgmR1-BtTFVC5ah7weeHXL1ZxB8YAC-Nexh961HRBrgjNA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPTjJmq6ZxCe-f8e_Bah+fyD6HczaEZ7xuRZ5r9gH=E2+MDP0A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJQBtgnKzn=XR=6nmHiMPpEGzt=ixpaUxZi300S9=bqxqtN7vQ@mail.gmail.com>

> Then your understanding is flat-out wrong. Encouraging participation
> by everyone DOES mean deleting what is unproductive, offensive, and
> likely to discourage participation.

I haven't written anything unproductive or offensive. I offered
constructive criticism with a detailed plan on how to fix the problem.
The forum owners chose to ban me because they don't like hearing that
the code they've written is bad. And that's the long and the short of
it. This has been a pattern in behavior of PyPA members I've
interacted with so far.  And whenever they had a chance, they'd use it
to pretend that the problems I'm talking about don't exist by deleting
every mention of the problem. That is an example of unproductive and
offensive behavior because it produces nothing and wastes my time I've
dedicated to locating, reporting and solving their problem.

> Go play in your own sandbox somewhere,

You are being repeatedly rude, without provocation, and yet you keep
blaming me for what you are doing. I guess you have to be a moderator
in this forum because you act as if this is a kind of behavior will be
without any repercussions for you.

You probably don't understand it, but this sandbox is as much yours as
it is mine.  You can "become" an authority and, eg. block me -- but
that would be an overreach. Physically possible but morally wrong.

I don't need to prove you wrong by being better than you. Nobody does.
Being right or wrong isn't about being better at something.

Not only that, I legally (and physically) cannot establish my own
Python Software Foundation and claim a right to Python intellectual
property, establish a governing body for Python etc. These forums are
how PSF is supposed to implement its advertised policies.  I cannot
just take over them... that'd be illegal even if I somehow managed to
physically pull it off.

From oscar.j.benjamin at gmail.com  Fri Dec 29 19:23:34 2023
From: oscar.j.benjamin at gmail.com (Oscar Benjamin)
Date: Sat, 30 Dec 2023 00:23:34 +0000
Subject: What is Install-Paths-To in WHEEL file?
In-Reply-To: <CAJQBtgnKzn=XR=6nmHiMPpEGzt=ixpaUxZi300S9=bqxqtN7vQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJQBtgkFLix4GJGQXbemTetA4Bw=VS_SWktOJE5_T3bDtwWgeg@mail.gmail.com>
 <EAC436D9-002D-4762-BCE4-841BD00B7A64@barrys-emacs.org>
 <CAJQBtg=TDvmq7VMWfwS9tNNfFh1umWNaPUQrsEywahVB+dsobw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJQBtgk1Th9kA6KVq4TS1E4ZKs7HmV_pFmz4Xba181fX+Usywg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAHVvXxR4usiht8G7h1CucyuKm+4os=kzFYijLKzHQTqNz8GdOw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJQBtgnOr=8eDBE8PavHo3+Yz_faznrYOAq3+tioHZV+x+zC9A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPTjJmp_vmhQ9k2XWQD=XWvtnrVJp8oBc1=G7k4PNg3xscTbsA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJQBtgmXfHD3p4pZ5HwR2tnoFQDGbA=p1WpDUbu-2kiZ0Cba+w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPTjJmrFunkr18kjJGST-j6FRybPhF8vsKuMVN4c0Hc3sxva4A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJQBtgmR1-BtTFVC5ah7weeHXL1ZxB8YAC-Nexh961HRBrgjNA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPTjJmq6ZxCe-f8e_Bah+fyD6HczaEZ7xuRZ5r9gH=E2+MDP0A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJQBtgnKzn=XR=6nmHiMPpEGzt=ixpaUxZi300S9=bqxqtN7vQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAHVvXxTBXU2UooWuYuR_1fW=XB54y19zKnzwGSgzcWT1FzqCiA@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, 29 Dec 2023 at 22:38, Left Right via Python-list
<python-list at python.org> wrote:
>
> > Then your understanding is flat-out wrong. Encouraging participation
> > by everyone DOES mean deleting what is unproductive, offensive, and
> > likely to discourage participation.
>
> I haven't written anything unproductive or offensive. I offered
> constructive criticism with a detailed plan on how to fix the problem.
> The forum owners chose to ban me because they don't like hearing that
> the code they've written is bad. And that's the long and the short of
> it. This has been a pattern in behavior of PyPA members I've
> interacted with so far.

You are conflating several different groups of people. The PyPA are
the people who currently maintain the code for various
libraries/tools. That is very often not the same as the people who
originally wrote the code for the same libraries/tools or for
preceding ones. Neither group is the same as the forum moderators (I
suspect that there is no intersection between the moderators and the
PyPA etc.).

> And whenever they had a chance, they'd use it
> to pretend that the problems I'm talking about don't exist by deleting
> every mention of the problem. That is an example of unproductive and
> offensive behavior because it produces nothing and wastes my time I've
> dedicated to locating, reporting and solving their problem.

Actually you are wasting the time of others by putting across
inaccurate and unhelpful information in a rude way and at the same
time criticising others without really understanding who you are
criticising and for what. Your contribution is unhelpful mostly (but
not exclusively) because of the way that you choose to communicate.

I did not realise earlier what you were referring to but I see now
that I have email notifications with the content of your posts that
were deleted. I am not surprised that they were deleted and that you
were banned because if I was a moderator looking at those then I would
not expect a promising future for your interactions with others in the
forum.

There is some significant irony in you describing the forum as a
"toxic pit" for deleting your posts. I don't always agree with the
moderators and I am not sure that I would have reacted the way that
they did but these threads remind me precisely why moderation
(including deleting posts such as yours) is needed to *prevent* a
forum from turning into a toxic pit.

--
Oscar

From greg.ewing at canterbury.ac.nz  Fri Dec 29 21:09:40 2023
From: greg.ewing at canterbury.ac.nz (Greg Ewing)
Date: Sat, 30 Dec 2023 15:09:40 +1300
Subject: mypy question
In-Reply-To: <mailman.75.1703862125.2892.python-list@python.org>
References: <ZY64YbzKqfGbZcpC@hermes.hilbert.loc>
 <fd6bbad8-2736-4305-982d-eabbf212a920@wichmann.us>
 <ZY7faSj-OA-lDqxC@hermes.hilbert.loc>
 <mailman.75.1703862125.2892.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <kv9cf4Fk7tqU1@mid.individual.net>

On 30/12/23 4:02 am, Karsten Hilbert wrote:

> 	def run_rw_queries (
> 		link_obj:_TLnkObj=None,
> 		queries:list[dict[str, str | list | dict[str, Any]]]=None,

> Given that I would have thought that passing in
> list[dict[str, str]] for "queries" ought to be type safe.

dict[str, str] is not a subtype of dict[str, str | something_else]
because you can assign a value of type something_else to the latter
but not the former.

In this case it happens to be okay because the function is (presumably)
treating the dict passed in as immutable, but MyPy has no way to be sure
of that.

You could try declaring it as a collections.Mapping, which is immutable.

-- 
Greg

From miked at dewhirst.com.au  Fri Dec 29 22:04:41 2023
From: miked at dewhirst.com.au (Mike Dewhirst)
Date: Sat, 30 Dec 2023 14:04:41 +1100
Subject: Python 3.12.1, Windows 11: shebang line #!/usr/bin/env python3
 doesn't work any more
In-Reply-To: <6e856c31-c8aa-4db6-a14a-0c1d2e4e3d8f@gmail.com>
References: <f53edfe0-d67b-45a8-8604-a3d89734af58@web.de>
 <b22706a9-7200-446f-8a10-587f988a14c1@tompassin.net>
 <a253ca1e-47b2-0b75-bffe-cd04a97bde05@gmail.com>
 <0fdc10a9-a9c1-4f34-8b78-573c3ef18a7c@tompassin.net>
 <aba514c0-6352-5da1-23be-dd846e2223ef@gmail.com>
 <D450A6EE-5EC3-4CCA-BCEA-C91DAF27D723@dewhirst.com.au>
 <mailman.54.1703479290.2892.python-list@python.org>
 <6e856c31-c8aa-4db6-a14a-0c1d2e4e3d8f@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <a08186cb-b133-4569-8c85-5429b620b6e5@dewhirst.com.au>

On 29/12/2023 12:09 pm, F?lix An via Python-list wrote:
> On 2023-12-25 12:36, Mike Dewhirst wrote:
>>
>> 3. You cannot trust Microsoft. You can trust Python Software 
>> Foundation. Python from PSF works the same in all environments - or 
>> if not it is a bug. Python from Microsoft is tweaked to satisfy their 
>> aforementioned strategy of locking in users to Windows.
>>
>
> I strongly disagree with this.

Not sure which part of the above you strongly disagree with. I might 
seem a bit OTT with "You cannot trust Microsoft" but I did put it in a 
specific context.

PSF does try to make Python work identically in all operating systems it 
supports. The OP was using py.exe which I discovered (just now - and it 
is why I'm writing this) exists on my Windows 10 machine. I have never 
installed any Python other than personally downloaded from the 
python.org website - therefore py.exe must have come from PSF!

I had assumed the OP had installed Python from the Microsoft shop and 
that's where py.exe must have come from.

I learn something every day.

> I don't get all the irrational hate for Microsoft that exists within 
> the Linux community.

Perhaps you are too young to remember when Steve Ballmer was head of 
Microsoft?

He specifically and loudly hated Linux and developed the anti-linux 
culture/strategy within Microsoft. If memory serves correctly he called 
it a virus. That was in the context of trying to get rid of Linux in 
Europe (Germany I think) where it had gained a small municipal foothold. 
Microsoft eventually succeeded in reversing that public mistake.

> In recent years, Microsoft has made great contributions to the 
> everyday life of Linux users. VS Code is based on open source and 
> available on Linux, .NET is now on Linux, Windows has WSL2 and Visual 
> Studio Linux development tools to help you develop software for Linux, 
> SQL Server (despite still being commercial software except for the 
> Express and Developer versions) is on Linux, etc.

I only use Linux on servers without GUI. I have used Windows desktop 
since it was released because most of my clients used it. I had no 
choice. I have been watching what they do for decades.

I agree they appear to have become more civilised in recent years.

M

-- 
Signed email is an absolute defence against phishing. This email has
been signed with my private key. If you import my public key you can
automatically decrypt my signature and be sure it came from me. Your
email software can handle signing.

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From rosuav at gmail.com  Fri Dec 29 23:55:15 2023
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Sat, 30 Dec 2023 15:55:15 +1100
Subject: Python 3.12.1, Windows 11: shebang line #!/usr/bin/env python3
 doesn't work any more
In-Reply-To: <a08186cb-b133-4569-8c85-5429b620b6e5@dewhirst.com.au>
References: <f53edfe0-d67b-45a8-8604-a3d89734af58@web.de>
 <b22706a9-7200-446f-8a10-587f988a14c1@tompassin.net>
 <a253ca1e-47b2-0b75-bffe-cd04a97bde05@gmail.com>
 <0fdc10a9-a9c1-4f34-8b78-573c3ef18a7c@tompassin.net>
 <aba514c0-6352-5da1-23be-dd846e2223ef@gmail.com>
 <D450A6EE-5EC3-4CCA-BCEA-C91DAF27D723@dewhirst.com.au>
 <mailman.54.1703479290.2892.python-list@python.org>
 <6e856c31-c8aa-4db6-a14a-0c1d2e4e3d8f@gmail.com>
 <a08186cb-b133-4569-8c85-5429b620b6e5@dewhirst.com.au>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmqJNp0VrkuhUhv2n_CThC9LeXX-X-gF1U-qpidNRF=fjA@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, 30 Dec 2023 at 14:06, Mike Dewhirst via Python-list
<python-list at python.org> wrote:
>
> On 29/12/2023 12:09 pm, F?lix An via Python-list wrote:
> > On 2023-12-25 12:36, Mike Dewhirst wrote:
> >>
> >> 3. You cannot trust Microsoft. You can trust Python Software
> >> Foundation. Python from PSF works the same in all environments - or
> >> if not it is a bug. Python from Microsoft is tweaked to satisfy their
> >> aforementioned strategy of locking in users to Windows.
> >>
> >
> > I strongly disagree with this.
>
> Not sure which part of the above you strongly disagree with. I might
> seem a bit OTT with "You cannot trust Microsoft" but I did put it in a
> specific context.
>
> PSF does try to make Python work identically in all operating systems it
> supports. The OP was using py.exe which I discovered (just now - and it
> is why I'm writing this) exists on my Windows 10 machine. I have never
> installed any Python other than personally downloaded from the
> python.org website - therefore py.exe must have come from PSF!
>
> I had assumed the OP had installed Python from the Microsoft shop and
> that's where py.exe must have come from.
>
> I learn something every day.

If you'd done a little research, you might have found this:

https://peps.python.org/pep-0397/

Yes, it is from the official launcher. I don't see why you'd expect
Microsoft to go to the effort of building their own launcher when it
can be available for every Python user.

> > I don't get all the irrational hate for Microsoft that exists within
> > the Linux community.
>
> Perhaps you are too young to remember when Steve Ballmer was head of
> Microsoft?

How relevant is this?

I remember the days when OS/2 was the big target, and Microsoft was
the greatest anti-OS/2 voice out there. Does that affect the way I use
tools today? Is it even slightly relevant?

I remember when Intel had floating-point division issues in their
FPUs. Do I tell people "don't do floating-point math on Intel
processors"? Is it relevant?

ChrisA

From hjp-python at hjp.at  Sat Dec 30 05:30:36 2023
From: hjp-python at hjp.at (Peter J. Holzer)
Date: Sat, 30 Dec 2023 11:30:36 +0100
Subject: How/where to store calibration values - written by program A,
 read by program B
In-Reply-To: <658efb64.050a0220.dce6e.1402@mx.google.com>
References: <CACNDuY80=kAzAWXCzTPUxvx1jHv_Ce7k40qgx-161_i9sZ6eqw@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.61.1703692934.2892.python-list@python.org>
 <kv4es7Fl313U3@mid.individual.net>
 <20231228142942.uvkivmrvikvfyuxg@hjp.at>
 <658efb64.050a0220.dce6e.1402@mx.google.com>
Message-ID: <20231230103036.qtvujv2vmnzejngz@hjp.at>

On 2023-12-29 09:01:24 -0800, Grant Edwards via Python-list wrote:
> On 2023-12-28, Peter J. Holzer via Python-list <python-list at python.org> wrote:
> > On 2023-12-28 05:20:07 +0000, rbowman via Python-list wrote:
> >> On Wed, 27 Dec 2023 03:53:42 -0600, Greg Walters wrote:
> >> > The biggest caveat is that the shared variable MUST exist before it can
> >> > be examined or used (not surprising).
> >> 
> >> There are a few other questions. Let's say config.py contains a variable 
> >> like 'font' that is a user set preference or a calibration value 
> >> calculated by A to keep with the thread title. Assuming both scripts are 
> >> running, how does the change get propagated to B after it is set in A
> >
> > It isn't. The variable is set purely in memory. This is a mechanism to
> > share a value between multiple modules used by the same process, not to
> > share between multiple processes (whether they run the same or different
> > scripts)
> >
> >> and written to the shared file?
> >
> > Nothing is ever written to a file.
> 
> Then how does it help the OP to propogate clibration values from one
> program to another or from one program run to the next run?

It doesn't. See his second mail in this thread, where he explains it in
a bit more detail. I think he might be a bit confused in his
terminology.

        hp

-- 
   _  | Peter J. Holzer    | Story must make more sense than reality.
|_|_) |                    |
| |   | hjp at hjp.at         |    -- Charles Stross, "Creative writing
__/   | http://www.hjp.at/ |       challenge!"
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From Karsten.Hilbert at gmx.net  Sat Dec 30 06:23:53 2023
From: Karsten.Hilbert at gmx.net (Karsten Hilbert)
Date: Sat, 30 Dec 2023 12:23:53 +0100
Subject: Aw: Re: mypy question
In-Reply-To: <kv9cf4Fk7tqU1@mid.individual.net>
References: <ZY64YbzKqfGbZcpC@hermes.hilbert.loc>
 <fd6bbad8-2736-4305-982d-eabbf212a920@wichmann.us>
 <ZY7faSj-OA-lDqxC@hermes.hilbert.loc>
 <mailman.75.1703862125.2892.python-list@python.org>
 <kv9cf4Fk7tqU1@mid.individual.net>
Message-ID: <trinity-a03772f0-20d6-4f29-9db2-466923373787-1703935433094@3c-app-gmx-bap02>

Hi Greg,

> dict[str, str] is not a subtype of dict[str, str | something_else]
> because you can assign a value of type something_else to the latter
> but not the former.

I understand what you are saying but I do not yet understand why this
applies to my situation.

I don't have Python at hand currently, so I'll write untested pseudocode:

def print_greeting(greeting:int|str):
   print(greeting)

print_greeting('hello')

The above snippet should be equivalent to my more complicated code over
which mypy complains to the equivalent of

   "input" is of type "str"
   but expected type "Union[str,int]

I do understand that "str" is formally more narrow than "Union [str,int]" and
the type system has every right to not consider them equivalent.

However, this seems like a very common use case: "allow passing in either str or int
and have type checking pass either input as valid" -- yet mypy doesn't seem
to share that idea.

Or else there's something I haven't wrapped my head around yet. But what ?

Karsten


From cl at isbd.net  Sat Dec 30 06:05:31 2023
From: cl at isbd.net (Chris Green)
Date: Sat, 30 Dec 2023 11:05:31 +0000
Subject: How/where to store calibration values - written by program A,
 read by program B
References: <CACNDuY80=kAzAWXCzTPUxvx1jHv_Ce7k40qgx-161_i9sZ6eqw@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.61.1703692934.2892.python-list@python.org>
 <kv4es7Fl313U3@mid.individual.net> <20231228142942.uvkivmrvikvfyuxg@hjp.at>
 <658efb64.050a0220.dce6e.1402@mx.google.com>
 <20231230103036.qtvujv2vmnzejngz@hjp.at>
 <mailman.88.1703932245.2892.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <r4a56k-pkto.ln1@esprimo.zbmc.eu>

Peter J. Holzer <hjp-python at hjp.at> wrote:
> [-- text/plain, encoding quoted-printable, charset: us-ascii, 40 lines --]
> 
> On 2023-12-29 09:01:24 -0800, Grant Edwards via Python-list wrote:
> > On 2023-12-28, Peter J. Holzer via Python-list <python-list at python.org> wrote:
> > > On 2023-12-28 05:20:07 +0000, rbowman via Python-list wrote:
> > >> On Wed, 27 Dec 2023 03:53:42 -0600, Greg Walters wrote:
> > >> > The biggest caveat is that the shared variable MUST exist before it can
> > >> > be examined or used (not surprising).
> > >> 
> > >> There are a few other questions. Let's say config.py contains a variable 
> > >> like 'font' that is a user set preference or a calibration value 
> > >> calculated by A to keep with the thread title. Assuming both scripts are 
> > >> running, how does the change get propagated to B after it is set in A
> > >
> > > It isn't. The variable is set purely in memory. This is a mechanism to
> > > share a value between multiple modules used by the same process, not to
> > > share between multiple processes (whether they run the same or different
> > > scripts)
> > >
> > >> and written to the shared file?
> > >
> > > Nothing is ever written to a file.
> > 
> > Then how does it help the OP to propogate clibration values from one
> > program to another or from one program run to the next run?
> 
> It doesn't. See his second mail in this thread, where he explains it in
> a bit more detail. I think he might be a bit confused in his
> terminology.
> 
If I am the OP (I suspect I may be) I have gone with JSON stored in a
file to provide what I need.  The Python json package is very simple
to use and with an 'indent=' setting the resulting json is reasonably
human readable which is all I need.

Thus programs simply read the values from the json file into a
dictionary of dictionaries and the 'updater of values' program can
write them back after changes. 

-- 
Chris Green
?

From list1 at tompassin.net  Sat Dec 30 09:14:05 2023
From: list1 at tompassin.net (Thomas Passin)
Date: Sat, 30 Dec 2023 09:14:05 -0500
Subject: mypy question
In-Reply-To: <ZY7faSj-OA-lDqxC@hermes.hilbert.loc>
References: <ZY64YbzKqfGbZcpC@hermes.hilbert.loc>
 <fd6bbad8-2736-4305-982d-eabbf212a920@wichmann.us>
 <ZY7faSj-OA-lDqxC@hermes.hilbert.loc>
Message-ID: <1d9aa14c-fd26-4afd-b2fc-a9e516878491@tompassin.net>

On 12/29/2023 10:02 AM, Karsten Hilbert via Python-list wrote:
> I agree that mypy's grasp of my intent from
> 
> 	queries:list[dict[str, str | list | dict[str, Any]]]=None,
> 
> into
> 
> 	"List[Dict[str, Union[str, List[Any], Dict[str, Any]]]]"
> 
> seems accurate. I just don't understand why list[dict[str,
> str]] should not pass that construct.

I made a tiny test program with your type signature, and got this error 
message from mypy:

c:\temp\python\typing_test.py:3: error: X | Y syntax for unions requires 
Python 3.10  [syntax]

Aside from that, this variation causes no mypy error (you must use 
Sequence instead of List), and is also more clear about what you are 
trying to get:

from typing import Union, Sequence, Dict

DictType1 = Dict[str, str]
DictType2 = Dict[str, Sequence]
DictType3 = Dict[str, Dict]
QueryType = Sequence[Union[DictType1, DictType2, DictType3]]

def test_typing(queries:QueryType=None):
     print(type(queries))

d1 = {'k1': 'v1', 'k2': 'v2'}
queries = [d1,]
test_typing(queries)

I'm not sure if this captures exactly what you want, but it avoids the 
problem where mypy does not regard str and Union[str, list] as 
equivalent types.  I tested this using Python 3.12.




From learn2program at gmail.com  Sat Dec 30 09:47:28 2023
From: learn2program at gmail.com (Alan Gauld)
Date: Sat, 30 Dec 2023 14:47:28 +0000
Subject: Are there any easy-to-use Visual Studio C# WinForms-like GUI
 designers in the Python world for Tk?
In-Reply-To: <uml605$ikhb$1@dont-email.me>
References: <uml605$ikhb$1@dont-email.me>
Message-ID: <592ab1d8-dc0d-6f58-0759-5bb3537112d0@yahoo.co.uk>

On 29/12/2023 01:05, F?lix An via Python-list wrote:
> I'm used to C# WinForms, which has an easy-to-use drag-and-drop GUI 
> designer in Visual Studio. Is there anything similar for Tk? How about 
> Qt? 

There are any number of them but few that work well. The best
I found was Dabo but it uses its own Framework (based, ISTR,
on wxPython?) so not much good for integrating with third
party widgets etc.

I also used a Python fork of SpecTcl but it died a death I think.

The Qt Designer tool works with Python but I never took to
Qt as a toolkit although once mastered it is very powerful.
Probably the best choice for professional class GUI
applications using a GUI builder.

And on a Mac the standard Apple XCode GUI builder works fine
with Python too, but is Mac specific.

> What do you recommend as the easiest way to create GUI programs in 
> Python, similar to the ease of use of C# WinForms?

Provided you aren't getting fancy the basic Tkinter toolset
and programming by hand works best for me. Once you get used
to it its quick, flexible and fairly easy to debug. I also
use wxPython if I need something more sophisticated, but again
I just type the code I don't use a GUI builder.

-- 
Alan G
Author of the Learn to Program web site
http://www.alan-g.me.uk/
http://www.amazon.com/author/alan_gauld
Follow my photo-blog on Flickr at:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/alangauldphotos



From Karsten.Hilbert at gmx.net  Sat Dec 30 10:08:27 2023
From: Karsten.Hilbert at gmx.net (Karsten Hilbert)
Date: Sat, 30 Dec 2023 16:08:27 +0100
Subject: Aw: Re: mypy question
In-Reply-To: <1d9aa14c-fd26-4afd-b2fc-a9e516878491@tompassin.net>
References: <ZY64YbzKqfGbZcpC@hermes.hilbert.loc>
 <fd6bbad8-2736-4305-982d-eabbf212a920@wichmann.us>
 <ZY7faSj-OA-lDqxC@hermes.hilbert.loc>
 <1d9aa14c-fd26-4afd-b2fc-a9e516878491@tompassin.net>
Message-ID: <trinity-0dd8a644-4582-4c0c-a73e-4de250802749-1703948907120@3c-app-gmx-bap02>

Dear Thomas,

thanks for taking the time to look into my issue.

Maybe it helps if I explain what I want (sorry that my web mailer does not respect
indentation, I will insert dots).

I want a function to run SQL queries:

run_queries(conn, queries):
...for q in queries:
......conn.execute(q)

I now want to add type hints such that my large codebase can
be checked for silly doings. First, queries is to be a list
of the SQL to run:

run_queries(conn, queries:list):

Then, each list entry can be

...a string holding simple, complete SQL (say "SELECT 1")

run_queries(conn, queries:list[str]):

or

...a dict holding the SQL and arguments for parameters

run_queries(conn, queries:list[dict]):

So, taken together:

run_queries(conn, queries:list[str|dict]):

(yes, this is in Python 3.11/3.12)

Now, when it is a list of dicts I want to further constrain the
dicts. Each is to contain the keys "SQL" and "args". So the keys
are of type str. The values for the keys will be of various types,
such that I chose Any as pseudo-type, so that each list entry that
is of type dict should be dict[str, Any], hence:

queries = [{'SQL': 'SELECT %(value)s', 'args': {'value': 1}}]

and

run_queries(conn, queries:list[str|dict[str, Any]]):

If I now call this function with a simple SQL query:

SQL_query = 'SELECT 1'  # should be type str ?
queries = [SQL_query]   # should be type list[str] ?
run_queries(conn, queries = queries)

and run mypy over that (at least inside my complex codebase) I will
get a type mismatch being hinted at.

So far I don't grasp at which point my reasoning above is faulty.

Karsten

From list1 at tompassin.net  Sat Dec 30 11:17:12 2023
From: list1 at tompassin.net (Thomas Passin)
Date: Sat, 30 Dec 2023 11:17:12 -0500
Subject: Aw: Re: mypy question
In-Reply-To: <trinity-0dd8a644-4582-4c0c-a73e-4de250802749-1703948907120@3c-app-gmx-bap02>
References: <ZY64YbzKqfGbZcpC@hermes.hilbert.loc>
 <fd6bbad8-2736-4305-982d-eabbf212a920@wichmann.us>
 <ZY7faSj-OA-lDqxC@hermes.hilbert.loc>
 <1d9aa14c-fd26-4afd-b2fc-a9e516878491@tompassin.net>
 <trinity-0dd8a644-4582-4c0c-a73e-4de250802749-1703948907120@3c-app-gmx-bap02>
Message-ID: <4f452418-4bb3-4345-825f-ebc175739268@tompassin.net>

On 12/30/2023 10:08 AM, Karsten Hilbert via Python-list wrote:
> Dear Thomas,
> 
> thanks for taking the time to look into my issue.
> 
> Maybe it helps if I explain what I want (sorry that my web mailer does not respect
> indentation, I will insert dots).
> 
> I want a function to run SQL queries:
> 
> run_queries(conn, queries):
> ...for q in queries:
> ......conn.execute(q)
> 
> I now want to add type hints such that my large codebase can
> be checked for silly doings. First, queries is to be a list
> of the SQL to run:
> 
> run_queries(conn, queries:list):
> 
> Then, each list entry can be
> 
> ...a string holding simple, complete SQL (say "SELECT 1")
> 
> run_queries(conn, queries:list[str]):
> 
> or
> 
> ...a dict holding the SQL and arguments for parameters
> 
> run_queries(conn, queries:list[dict]):
> 
> So, taken together:
> 
> run_queries(conn, queries:list[str|dict]):
> 
> (yes, this is in Python 3.11/3.12)
> 
> Now, when it is a list of dicts I want to further constrain the
> dicts. Each is to contain the keys "SQL" and "args". So the keys
> are of type str. The values for the keys will be of various types,
> such that I chose Any as pseudo-type, so that each list entry that
> is of type dict should be dict[str, Any], hence:
> 
> queries = [{'SQL': 'SELECT %(value)s', 'args': {'value': 1}}]
> 
> and
> 
> run_queries(conn, queries:list[str|dict[str, Any]]):
> 
> If I now call this function with a simple SQL query:
> 
> SQL_query = 'SELECT 1'  # should be type str ?
> queries = [SQL_query]   # should be type list[str] ?
> run_queries(conn, queries = queries)
> 
> and run mypy over that (at least inside my complex codebase) I will
> get a type mismatch being hinted at.
> 
> So far I don't grasp at which point my reasoning above is faulty.
> 
> Karsten

I am not very expert in Python type hints.  In working up the example 
program I just posted, I got an error message from mypy that remarked 
that "list" is invariant, and to try Sequence which is "covariant".  I 
don't know what that means (and I haven't looked into it yet), but when 
I changed from list to Sequence as suggested, mypy stopped complaining.

Here is the exact error message, and it has a reference you might want 
to follow up with:

c:\temp\python\typing_test.py:16: note: "List" is invariant -- see 
https://mypy.readthedocs.io/en/stable/common_issues.html#variance
c:\temp\python\typing_test.py:16: note: Consider using "Sequence" 
instead, which is covariant

Before that, mypy insisted that str and Union[str, list] were 
incompatible argument types, which is something you are seeing, too.

I suggest that you build up your types as in my example, so that it's 
very clear what they are and very easy to change them, and use Sequence 
instead of List (or list).  See if that will do the job.


From list1 at tompassin.net  Sat Dec 30 11:57:15 2023
From: list1 at tompassin.net (Thomas Passin)
Date: Sat, 30 Dec 2023 11:57:15 -0500
Subject: Aw: Re: mypy question
In-Reply-To: <trinity-0dd8a644-4582-4c0c-a73e-4de250802749-1703948907120@3c-app-gmx-bap02>
References: <ZY64YbzKqfGbZcpC@hermes.hilbert.loc>
 <fd6bbad8-2736-4305-982d-eabbf212a920@wichmann.us>
 <ZY7faSj-OA-lDqxC@hermes.hilbert.loc>
 <1d9aa14c-fd26-4afd-b2fc-a9e516878491@tompassin.net>
 <trinity-0dd8a644-4582-4c0c-a73e-4de250802749-1703948907120@3c-app-gmx-bap02>
Message-ID: <8fc100d4-d38d-4eb8-a590-0a00acd625a9@tompassin.net>

On 12/30/2023 10:08 AM, Karsten Hilbert via Python-list wrote:
> Dear Thomas,
> 
> thanks for taking the time to look into my issue.
> 
> Maybe it helps if I explain what I want (sorry that my web mailer does not respect
> indentation, I will insert dots).
> 
> I want a function to run SQL queries:
> 
> run_queries(conn, queries):
> ...for q in queries:
> ......conn.execute(q)
> 
> I now want to add type hints such that my large codebase can
> be checked for silly doings. First, queries is to be a list
> of the SQL to run:
> 
> run_queries(conn, queries:list):
> 
> Then, each list entry can be
> 
> ...a string holding simple, complete SQL (say "SELECT 1")
> 
> run_queries(conn, queries:list[str]):

It occurs to me that you could simplify things if you converted those 
plain query strings to dicts:

'SELECT 1' --> {'SQL': 'SELECT 1'}

I'm fairly sure your database queries don't actually give you strings or 
dicts, right?  You probably get lists (or iterators) of tuples and 
somewhere you convert them to the arguments you are feeding to 
run_queries().  At least, that is how the standard Python db adapters 
work. If you change that conversion step, your arguments to 
run_queries() will all be lists of dicts, making your code simpler and 
reducing the complexity of the type hints.

> or
> 
> ...a dict holding the SQL and arguments for parameters
> 
> run_queries(conn, queries:list[dict]):
> 
> So, taken together:
> 
> run_queries(conn, queries:list[str|dict]):
> 
> (yes, this is in Python 3.11/3.12)
> 
> Now, when it is a list of dicts I want to further constrain the
> dicts. Each is to contain the keys "SQL" and "args". So the keys
> are of type str. The values for the keys will be of various types,
> such that I chose Any as pseudo-type, so that each list entry that
> is of type dict should be dict[str, Any], hence:
> 
> queries = [{'SQL': 'SELECT %(value)s', 'args': {'value': 1}}]
> 
> and
> 
> run_queries(conn, queries:list[str|dict[str, Any]]):
> 
> If I now call this function with a simple SQL query:
> 
> SQL_query = 'SELECT 1'  # should be type str ?
> queries = [SQL_query]   # should be type list[str] ?
> run_queries(conn, queries = queries)
> 
> and run mypy over that (at least inside my complex codebase) I will
> get a type mismatch being hinted at.
> 
> So far I don't grasp at which point my reasoning above is faulty.
> 
> Karsten


From Karsten.Hilbert at gmx.net  Sat Dec 30 12:08:08 2023
From: Karsten.Hilbert at gmx.net (Karsten Hilbert)
Date: Sat, 30 Dec 2023 18:08:08 +0100
Subject: Aw: Re:  Re: mypy question
In-Reply-To: <8fc100d4-d38d-4eb8-a590-0a00acd625a9@tompassin.net>
References: <ZY64YbzKqfGbZcpC@hermes.hilbert.loc>
 <fd6bbad8-2736-4305-982d-eabbf212a920@wichmann.us>
 <ZY7faSj-OA-lDqxC@hermes.hilbert.loc>
 <1d9aa14c-fd26-4afd-b2fc-a9e516878491@tompassin.net>
 <trinity-0dd8a644-4582-4c0c-a73e-4de250802749-1703948907120@3c-app-gmx-bap02>
 <8fc100d4-d38d-4eb8-a590-0a00acd625a9@tompassin.net>
Message-ID: <trinity-b29f8c6d-f75e-440e-834a-b8824b3e613c-1703956088577@3c-app-gmx-bap02>

> It occurs to me that you could simplify things if you converted those
> plain query strings to dicts:
>
> 'SELECT 1' --> {'SQL': 'SELECT 1'}

Ha, indeed. There's likely not that many "simple string SQL queries"
in that codebase so I shall take it as an opportunity to refactor them.

So, at least that much good has come from the mypy hint ;-)

Karsten

From list1 at tompassin.net  Sat Dec 30 07:45:15 2023
From: list1 at tompassin.net (Thomas Passin)
Date: Sat, 30 Dec 2023 07:45:15 -0500
Subject: mypy question
In-Reply-To: <ZY7faSj-OA-lDqxC@hermes.hilbert.loc>
References: <ZY64YbzKqfGbZcpC@hermes.hilbert.loc>
 <fd6bbad8-2736-4305-982d-eabbf212a920@wichmann.us>
 <ZY7faSj-OA-lDqxC@hermes.hilbert.loc>
Message-ID: <d3f88255-969d-457f-86d7-0b7af8fc0c73@tompassin.net>

On 12/29/2023 10:02 AM, Karsten Hilbert via Python-list wrote:
> Am Fri, Dec 29, 2023 at 07:49:17AM -0700 schrieb Mats Wichmann via Python-list:
> 
>>> I am not sure why mypy thinks this
>>>
>>> gmPG2.py:554: error: Argument "queries" to "run_rw_queries" has incompatible type "List[Dict[str, str]]"; expected
>>> "List[Dict[str, Union[str, List[Any], Dict[str, Any]]]]"  [arg-type]
>>>                      rows, idx = run_rw_queries(link_obj = conn, queries = queries, return_data = True)
>>>                                                                            ^~~~~~~
>>>
>>> should be flagged. The intent is for "queries" to be
>>>
>>> a list
>>> 	of dicts
>>> 		with keys of str
>>> 		and values of
>>> 			str OR
>>> 			list of anything OR
>>> 			dict with
>>> 				keys of str
>>> 				and values of anything
>>>
>>> I'd have thunk list[dict[str,str]] matches that ?
>>
>> Dict[str, str] means the key type and value type should both be strings,
> 
> Indeed, I know that much, list[dict[str, str]] is what is getting
> passed in in this particular invocation of run_rw_queries().
> 
> For what it's worth here's the signature of that function:
> 
> 	def run_rw_queries (
> 		link_obj:_TLnkObj=None,
> 		queries:list[dict[str, str | list | dict[str, Any]]]=None,
> 		end_tx:bool=False,
> 		return_data:bool=None,
> 		get_col_idx:bool=False,
> 		verbose:bool=False
> 	) -> tuple[list[dbapi.extras.DictRow], dict[str, int] | None]:
> 
> Given that I would have thought that passing in
> list[dict[str, str]] for "queries" ought to be type safe.
> Mypy indicates otherwise which I am not grokking as to why.
> 
>> but in your
>> retelling above you indicate lots of possible value types... actually the mypy guess
>> seems to be a pretty good recreation of your psuedo-code description.
> 
> I agree that mypy's grasp of my intent from
> 
> 	queries:list[dict[str, str | list | dict[str, Any]]]=None,
> 
> into
> 
> 	"List[Dict[str, Union[str, List[Any], Dict[str, Any]]]]"
> 
> seems accurate. I just don't understand why list[dict[str,
> str]] should not pass that construct.

Maybe better to ask the mypy people directly.

> Karsten
> --
> GPG  40BE 5B0E C98E 1713 AFA6  5BC0 3BEA AC80 7D4F C89B


From Karsten.Hilbert at gmx.net  Sat Dec 30 12:19:32 2023
From: Karsten.Hilbert at gmx.net (Karsten Hilbert)
Date: Sat, 30 Dec 2023 18:19:32 +0100
Subject: Aw: Re:  Re: mypy question
In-Reply-To: <8fc100d4-d38d-4eb8-a590-0a00acd625a9@tompassin.net>
References: <ZY64YbzKqfGbZcpC@hermes.hilbert.loc>
 <fd6bbad8-2736-4305-982d-eabbf212a920@wichmann.us>
 <ZY7faSj-OA-lDqxC@hermes.hilbert.loc>
 <1d9aa14c-fd26-4afd-b2fc-a9e516878491@tompassin.net>
 <trinity-0dd8a644-4582-4c0c-a73e-4de250802749-1703948907120@3c-app-gmx-bap02>
 <8fc100d4-d38d-4eb8-a590-0a00acd625a9@tompassin.net>
Message-ID: <trinity-acb483d6-09c6-42c1-bc9c-9bf0a826e7d7-1703956772198@3c-app-gmx-bap02>

> I'm fairly sure your database queries don't actually give you strings or
> dicts, right?  You probably get lists (or iterators) of tuples and
> somewhere you convert them to the arguments you are feeding to
> run_queries().

Ah, no, those queries are enshrined within the middleware as Python strings
with placeholdders. When in need of being run they are assembled into
a list of dicts-enriched-with-arguments-per-query (and fed to run_queries()).

As to what queries *give* me: I have set up psycopg2 to, indeed, hand
me a list of dicts (DictRow instances, that is). Those are then used
in display rather than being fed to run_queries().

Karsten

From barry at barrys-emacs.org  Sat Dec 30 13:05:58 2023
From: barry at barrys-emacs.org (Barry)
Date: Sat, 30 Dec 2023 18:05:58 +0000
Subject: mypy question
In-Reply-To: <trinity-0dd8a644-4582-4c0c-a73e-4de250802749-1703948907120@3c-app-gmx-bap02>
References: <trinity-0dd8a644-4582-4c0c-a73e-4de250802749-1703948907120@3c-app-gmx-bap02>
Message-ID: <7DA9A159-9DCF-4404-A467-6D71BF3E580A@barrys-emacs.org>



> On 30 Dec 2023, at 15:11, Karsten Hilbert via Python-list <python-list at python.org> wrote:
> 
> queries = [{'SQL': 'SELECT %(value)s', 'args': {'value': 1}}]
> 
> and
> 
> run_queries(conn, queries:list[str|dict[str, Any]]):

In cases like this I often use a wrapper class in place of a simple str.
If you have a class SqlString then your type becomes list[SqlString].

You may find that SqlString gains interesting methods over time.

 Barry

From rosuav at gmail.com  Sat Dec 30 14:05:02 2023
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2023 06:05:02 +1100
Subject: Aw: Re: mypy question
In-Reply-To: <4f452418-4bb3-4345-825f-ebc175739268@tompassin.net>
References: <ZY64YbzKqfGbZcpC@hermes.hilbert.loc>
 <fd6bbad8-2736-4305-982d-eabbf212a920@wichmann.us>
 <ZY7faSj-OA-lDqxC@hermes.hilbert.loc>
 <1d9aa14c-fd26-4afd-b2fc-a9e516878491@tompassin.net>
 <trinity-0dd8a644-4582-4c0c-a73e-4de250802749-1703948907120@3c-app-gmx-bap02>
 <4f452418-4bb3-4345-825f-ebc175739268@tompassin.net>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmokachJmW56YET88DNnWyGS0vnW+_=bmae0JFKP1b_qCQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, 31 Dec 2023 at 03:38, Thomas Passin via Python-list
<python-list at python.org> wrote:
> I am not very expert in Python type hints.  In working up the example
> program I just posted, I got an error message from mypy that remarked
> that "list" is invariant, and to try Sequence which is "covariant".  I
> don't know what that means (and I haven't looked into it yet), but when
> I changed from list to Sequence as suggested, mypy stopped complaining.
>

Ah, I think you've hit on the problem there. Consider this:

def add_item(stuff: dict[str: str | int]):
    stuff["spam"] = "ham"
    stuff["vooom"] = 1_000_000

Is it valid to pass this function a dict[str: str]? No, because it's
going to add an integer into it.

Hopefully that helps explain what's going on a bit.

ChrisA

From list1 at tompassin.net  Sat Dec 30 16:06:11 2023
From: list1 at tompassin.net (Thomas Passin)
Date: Sat, 30 Dec 2023 16:06:11 -0500
Subject: mypy question
In-Reply-To: <1d9aa14c-fd26-4afd-b2fc-a9e516878491@tompassin.net>
References: <ZY64YbzKqfGbZcpC@hermes.hilbert.loc>
 <fd6bbad8-2736-4305-982d-eabbf212a920@wichmann.us>
 <ZY7faSj-OA-lDqxC@hermes.hilbert.loc>
 <1d9aa14c-fd26-4afd-b2fc-a9e516878491@tompassin.net>
Message-ID: <04fd6edd-d6f3-43b6-9b5a-f279c34e1724@tompassin.net>

On 12/30/2023 9:14 AM, Thomas Passin via Python-list wrote:
> On 12/29/2023 10:02 AM, Karsten Hilbert via Python-list wrote:
>> I agree that mypy's grasp of my intent from
>>
>> ????queries:list[dict[str, str | list | dict[str, Any]]]=None,
>>
>> into
>>
>> ????"List[Dict[str, Union[str, List[Any], Dict[str, Any]]]]"
>>
>> seems accurate. I just don't understand why list[dict[str,
>> str]] should not pass that construct.
> 
> I made a tiny test program with your type signature, and got this error 
> message from mypy:
> 
> c:\temp\python\typing_test.py:3: error: X | Y syntax for unions requires 
> Python 3.10? [syntax]
> 
> Aside from that, this variation causes no mypy error (you must use 
> Sequence instead of List), and is also more clear about what you are 
> trying to get:
> 
> from typing import Union, Sequence, Dict
> 
> DictType1 = Dict[str, str]
> DictType2 = Dict[str, Sequence]
> DictType3 = Dict[str, Dict]
> QueryType = Sequence[Union[DictType1, DictType2, DictType3]]
> 
> def test_typing(queries:QueryType=None):
>  ??? print(type(queries))
> 
> d1 = {'k1': 'v1', 'k2': 'v2'}
> queries = [d1,]
> test_typing(queries)
> 
> I'm not sure if this captures exactly what you want, but it avoids the 
> problem where mypy does not regard str and Union[str, list] as 
> equivalent types.? I tested this using Python 3.12.

In doing more testing, I have learned that my suggestion above does 
work, *except* that you cannot mix-and-match different DictTypex types 
within the same Sequence - meaning within the same query argument.  Any 
of the Union types is OK but they all have to be the same in any instance.


From greg.ewing at canterbury.ac.nz  Sat Dec 30 19:21:25 2023
From: greg.ewing at canterbury.ac.nz (Greg Ewing)
Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2023 13:21:25 +1300
Subject: Aw: Re: mypy question
In-Reply-To: <mailman.99.1703963116.2892.python-list@python.org>
References: <ZY64YbzKqfGbZcpC@hermes.hilbert.loc>
 <fd6bbad8-2736-4305-982d-eabbf212a920@wichmann.us>
 <ZY7faSj-OA-lDqxC@hermes.hilbert.loc>
 <1d9aa14c-fd26-4afd-b2fc-a9e516878491@tompassin.net>
 <trinity-0dd8a644-4582-4c0c-a73e-4de250802749-1703948907120@3c-app-gmx-bap02>
 <4f452418-4bb3-4345-825f-ebc175739268@tompassin.net>
 <CAPTjJmokachJmW56YET88DNnWyGS0vnW+_=bmae0JFKP1b_qCQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.99.1703963116.2892.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <kvbqg7F3cpkU1@mid.individual.net>

On 31/12/23 8:05 am, Chris Angelico wrote:
> Ah, I think you've hit on the problem there. Consider this:
> 
> def add_item(stuff: dict[str: str | int]):
>      stuff["spam"] = "ham"
>      stuff["vooom"] = 1_000_000

Yep, that's it exactly. It's not the union itself that's the problem,
but the fact that there's a *mutable container* containing that type.

-- 
Greg

From greg.ewing at canterbury.ac.nz  Sat Dec 30 19:25:26 2023
From: greg.ewing at canterbury.ac.nz (Greg Ewing)
Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2023 13:25:26 +1300
Subject: mypy question
In-Reply-To: <mailman.100.1703971521.2892.python-list@python.org>
References: <ZY64YbzKqfGbZcpC@hermes.hilbert.loc>
 <fd6bbad8-2736-4305-982d-eabbf212a920@wichmann.us>
 <ZY7faSj-OA-lDqxC@hermes.hilbert.loc>
 <1d9aa14c-fd26-4afd-b2fc-a9e516878491@tompassin.net>
 <04fd6edd-d6f3-43b6-9b5a-f279c34e1724@tompassin.net>
 <mailman.100.1703971521.2892.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <kvbqnmF3cpkU2@mid.individual.net>

On 31/12/23 10:06 am, Thomas Passin wrote:
> my suggestion above does 
> work, *except* that you cannot mix-and-match different DictTypex types

Have you tried declaring the argument as a Mapping instead of a dict?
Seeing as Thomas Passin's Sequence experiment worked, it seems like this
should work too.

-- 
Greg

From olegsivokon at gmail.com  Sat Dec 30 19:35:03 2023
From: olegsivokon at gmail.com (Left Right)
Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2023 01:35:03 +0100
Subject: What is Install-Paths-To in WHEEL file?
In-Reply-To: <CAHVvXxTBXU2UooWuYuR_1fW=XB54y19zKnzwGSgzcWT1FzqCiA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJQBtgkFLix4GJGQXbemTetA4Bw=VS_SWktOJE5_T3bDtwWgeg@mail.gmail.com>
 <EAC436D9-002D-4762-BCE4-841BD00B7A64@barrys-emacs.org>
 <CAJQBtg=TDvmq7VMWfwS9tNNfFh1umWNaPUQrsEywahVB+dsobw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJQBtgk1Th9kA6KVq4TS1E4ZKs7HmV_pFmz4Xba181fX+Usywg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAHVvXxR4usiht8G7h1CucyuKm+4os=kzFYijLKzHQTqNz8GdOw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJQBtgnOr=8eDBE8PavHo3+Yz_faznrYOAq3+tioHZV+x+zC9A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPTjJmp_vmhQ9k2XWQD=XWvtnrVJp8oBc1=G7k4PNg3xscTbsA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJQBtgmXfHD3p4pZ5HwR2tnoFQDGbA=p1WpDUbu-2kiZ0Cba+w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPTjJmrFunkr18kjJGST-j6FRybPhF8vsKuMVN4c0Hc3sxva4A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJQBtgmR1-BtTFVC5ah7weeHXL1ZxB8YAC-Nexh961HRBrgjNA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPTjJmq6ZxCe-f8e_Bah+fyD6HczaEZ7xuRZ5r9gH=E2+MDP0A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJQBtgnKzn=XR=6nmHiMPpEGzt=ixpaUxZi300S9=bqxqtN7vQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAHVvXxTBXU2UooWuYuR_1fW=XB54y19zKnzwGSgzcWT1FzqCiA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJQBtg=bt1-NE_a7-5Yq09eTLtZeWU3vpyEJGSQsc4ApYJyHFg@mail.gmail.com>

> You are conflating several different groups of people. The PyPA are
> the people who currently maintain the code for various
> libraries/tools. That is very often not the same as the people who
> originally wrote the code for the same libraries/tools or for
> preceding ones. Neither group is the same as the forum moderators (I
> suspect that there is no intersection between the moderators and the
> PyPA etc.).

I'm sorry to tell you, but you suspect wrong. Unfortunately, it's
always the same story. Whenever I or anyone else with a legitimate
complaint about larger projects managed by PyPA tries to bring this to
public discussion, they get banned and their comments about PyPA
activity removed.  It's always presented as if whoever is complaining
is disrespecting the hard work of the person replying, who usually
self-describe as selfless volunteer with limited time and attention
they are willing to grant to the one complaining (implying they either
are PyPA or are volunteering for them).  As if their time was
obviously more important than that was spent by the one complaining to
research the problem and put together the complaint.

This has nothing to do with the original authors of the projects
managed by PyPA. I don't know why you decided to bring this up.  I
haven't mentioned them.

> Actually you are wasting the time of others by putting across
> inaccurate and unhelpful information in a rude way and at the same
> time criticising others without really understanding who you are
> criticising and for what. Your contribution is unhelpful mostly (but
> not exclusively) because of the way that you choose to communicate.

No, I'm not _wasting_ anyone's time.  I bring up a legitimate issue
that needs solving.  What happens is a typical example of gatekeeping,
overestimating one's worth or the value of one's contribution.  The
time I had to waste because of the bad decisions made by PyPA is
orders of magnitude more than the time they have spent reading
whatever I wrote to them.

Point me to inaccurate information please.  I'm happy to be corrected.

Similarly, point me to where I was rude, and I will apologize.

Apparently, I have a better understanding of who I criticize and for
what than you do.  You need to at least be factual when you make these
sorts of claims.

It's not for you to choose the way I communicate. There are accepted
boundaries, and I'm well within those boundaries. Anything beyond that
is not something I'm even interested in hearing your opinion on.

> There is some significant irony in you describing the forum as a
> "toxic pit" for deleting your posts. I don't always agree with the
> moderators and I am not sure that I would have reacted the way that
> they did but these threads remind me precisely why moderation
> (including deleting posts such as yours) is needed to *prevent* a
> forum from turning into a toxic pit.

You, as well as the moderators of the toxic pit forum are confused
about what it means to have a good discussion. The discussion that is
currently happening around PyPA projects and ideas is broken because
the PyPA side of the discussion is unwilling to acknowledge how bad
they are at doing their job. Whenever any serious criticism of their
work surfaces, they deal with it by deleting the criticism, never
through addressing the problem.

You can be the most polite and humble person in the world, but as soon
as you bring up the subject of the quality of their decisions, you are
automatically excluded from discussion.

The only criticism anyone is allowed to have is the kind that doesn't
touch on any major projects. It's possible to point out typos in
documentation or to address similarly inconsequential defects at the
smaller code unit level, but it's not possible to call for a revision
of ideas behind libraries or PEPs. For instance, as soon as you
mention the comically awful idea of pyproject.toml in a bad light, you
get a ban.

I believe this comes from the place of insecurity in one's ideas, and
has nothing to do with how polite the criticism is. And that's when
instruments like "code of conduct" are called upon to delete the
inconvenient criticism. This is what creates toxic communities like
StackOverflow or similarly built social networks which endow their
moderators with way too much power over other users.  The other
extreme of anarchy, similar to 4chan, doesn't suffer from this
problem, but sometimes results in grotesque gore or other _unpleasant_
things but aren't toxic in the same way gatekeeping is.

This is how I understand and use the word "toxic". The
dicuss.python.org is just as toxic as StackOverflow -- I don't have a
metric precise enough to tell who's worse. I believe that this format
is a very unfortunate choice for public discussion where there isn't
an inherent division between owners and non-owners.  Where giving the
keys to the common good to a small group of people creates such a
division.

From oscar.j.benjamin at gmail.com  Sat Dec 30 20:10:48 2023
From: oscar.j.benjamin at gmail.com (Oscar Benjamin)
Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2023 01:10:48 +0000
Subject: What is Install-Paths-To in WHEEL file?
In-Reply-To: <CAJQBtg=bt1-NE_a7-5Yq09eTLtZeWU3vpyEJGSQsc4ApYJyHFg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJQBtgkFLix4GJGQXbemTetA4Bw=VS_SWktOJE5_T3bDtwWgeg@mail.gmail.com>
 <EAC436D9-002D-4762-BCE4-841BD00B7A64@barrys-emacs.org>
 <CAJQBtg=TDvmq7VMWfwS9tNNfFh1umWNaPUQrsEywahVB+dsobw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJQBtgk1Th9kA6KVq4TS1E4ZKs7HmV_pFmz4Xba181fX+Usywg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAHVvXxR4usiht8G7h1CucyuKm+4os=kzFYijLKzHQTqNz8GdOw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJQBtgnOr=8eDBE8PavHo3+Yz_faznrYOAq3+tioHZV+x+zC9A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPTjJmp_vmhQ9k2XWQD=XWvtnrVJp8oBc1=G7k4PNg3xscTbsA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJQBtgmXfHD3p4pZ5HwR2tnoFQDGbA=p1WpDUbu-2kiZ0Cba+w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPTjJmrFunkr18kjJGST-j6FRybPhF8vsKuMVN4c0Hc3sxva4A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJQBtgmR1-BtTFVC5ah7weeHXL1ZxB8YAC-Nexh961HRBrgjNA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPTjJmq6ZxCe-f8e_Bah+fyD6HczaEZ7xuRZ5r9gH=E2+MDP0A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJQBtgnKzn=XR=6nmHiMPpEGzt=ixpaUxZi300S9=bqxqtN7vQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAHVvXxTBXU2UooWuYuR_1fW=XB54y19zKnzwGSgzcWT1FzqCiA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJQBtg=bt1-NE_a7-5Yq09eTLtZeWU3vpyEJGSQsc4ApYJyHFg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAHVvXxQksQmdnxKtmmwTqEVzsfgpfW726DadohRXPu3egDievw@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, 31 Dec 2023 at 00:35, Left Right <olegsivokon at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> It's not for you to choose the way I communicate. There are accepted
> boundaries, and I'm well within those boundaries. Anything beyond that
> is not something I'm even interested in hearing your opinion on.

You might not be interested in my opinion but you might want to
reflect on the fact that although you consider your behavior to be
within "accepted boundaries" the evidence here (and in the forum)
suggests that others do not and so your notion of what is "accepted"
is not universally shared.

I am not going to reply to your other points except to say that if you
want to influence anything then I expect that you would have more
success with a different approach.

To anyone else considering replying in this thread: please don't. I
very much doubt that anything good will happen here.

--
Oscar

From Karsten.Hilbert at gmx.net  Sun Dec 31 08:49:44 2023
From: Karsten.Hilbert at gmx.net (Karsten Hilbert)
Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2023 14:49:44 +0100
Subject: mypy question
In-Reply-To: <kvbqnmF3cpkU2@mid.individual.net>
References: <ZY64YbzKqfGbZcpC@hermes.hilbert.loc>
 <fd6bbad8-2736-4305-982d-eabbf212a920@wichmann.us>
 <ZY7faSj-OA-lDqxC@hermes.hilbert.loc>
 <1d9aa14c-fd26-4afd-b2fc-a9e516878491@tompassin.net>
 <04fd6edd-d6f3-43b6-9b5a-f279c34e1724@tompassin.net>
 <mailman.100.1703971521.2892.python-list@python.org>
 <kvbqnmF3cpkU2@mid.individual.net>
Message-ID: <ZZFxeIieVPI9jNI2@hermes.hilbert.loc>

Thanks to all. I ended up using Sequence for the list part
and Mapping for the dict part, which does require "import
typing" which I would rather have avoided.

Karsten
--
GPG  40BE 5B0E C98E 1713 AFA6  5BC0 3BEA AC80 7D4F C89B

From max at alcyone.com  Sun Dec 31 18:32:18 2023
From: max at alcyone.com (Erik Max Francis)
Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2023 15:32:18 -0800
Subject: ANN: EmPy 4.0.1
Message-ID: <8873eaad-420e-4359-9ae4-246a33774037@alcyone.com>

I'm pleased to announce the release of EmPy 4.0.1.

The 4._x_ series is a modernization of the software and a revamp of
the EmPy system to update its feature set and make it more consistent
with the latest Python versions and practices.  EmPy 4._x_ was also
relicensed to BSD.

The 4._x_ series adds new markups, including inline comments,
backquote literals, changed if-then-else extended expression,
functional expressions, support for modern Pythonic controls,
stringized and multiline significators, named escapes, diacritics,
icons, and emojis.

It adds support for configuration objects (replacing options
dictionaries); native support for Unicode, file buffering, reference
counted `sys.stdout` proxies and error dispatchers and handlers; fixes
several serious bugs; has a set of full unit and system tests, an
extensive builtin help system; and the online documention has been
rewritten and expanded.

Attempts have been made to make EmPy 4._x_ as backward compatible as
is practical.  Most common markup has not changed, the only changes
being removal of `repr` (in favor of backquote literals); literal
close parenthesis, bracket and brace markup; in-place markup has
changed syntax (to make way for emojis); and custom markup is now
parsed more sensibly.

Most backward-incompatible changes are in the embedding interface.
The `Interpreter` constructor and global `expand` function now require
keyword arguments to prevent further backward compatibility problems,
though effort has been made to make the behavior as backward
compatible as possible.  The supported environment variables have
changed, as well as the filter, diversion and hook APIs, and options
dictionaries no longer exist (in deference to configurations).

For a comprehensive list of changes from 3._x_ to 4._x_, see:
<http://www.alcyone.com/software/empy/ANNOUNCE.html#changes>


## Introduction:  Welcome to EmPy!

[EmPy](http://www.alcyone.com/software/empy/) is a powerful, robust and 
mature
templating system for inserting Python code in template text.  EmPy
takes a source document, processes it, and produces output.  This is
accomplished via expansions, which are signals to the EmPy system
where to act and are indicated with markup.  Markup is set off by a
customizable prefix (by default the at sign, `@`).  EmPy can expand
arbitrary Python expressions, statements and control structures in
this way, as well as a variety of additional special forms.  The
remaining textual data is sent to the output, allowing Python to be
used in effect as a markup language.

EmPy also supports hooks, which can intercept and modify the behavior
of a running interpreter; diversions, which allow recording and
playback; filters, which are dynamic and can be chained together; and
a dedicated user-customizable callback markup.  The system is highly
configurable via command line options, configuration files, and
environment variables.  An extensive API is also available for
embedding EmPy functionality in your own Python programs.

EmPy also has a supplemental library for additional non-essential
features (`emlib`), a documentation building library used to create
this documentation (`emdoc`), and an extensive help system (`emhelp`)
which can be queried from the command line with the main executable
`em.py` (`-h`/`--help`, `-H`/`--topics=TOPICS`).  The base EmPy
interpreter can function with only the `em.py`/`em` file/module
available.

EmPy can be used in a variety of roles, including as a templating
system, a text processing system (preprocessing and/or
postprocessing), a simple macro processor, a frontend for a content
management system, annotating documents, for literate programming, as
a souped-up text encoding converter, a text beautifier (with macros
and filters), and many other purposes.


### Markup overview

Expressions are embedded in text with the `@(...)` notation;
variations include conditional expressions with `@(...?...!...)`  and
the ability to handle thrown exceptions with `@(...$...)`.  As a
shortcut, simple variables and expressions can be abbreviated as
`@variable`, `@object.attribute`, `@sequence[index]`,
`@function(arguments...)`, `@function{markup}{...}` and
combinations.  Full-fledged statements are embedded with `@{...}`.
Control flow in terms of conditional or repeated expansion is
available with `@[...]`.  A `@` followed by any whitespace character
(including a newline) expands to nothing, allowing string
concatenations and line continuations.  Line comments are indicated
with `@#...` including the trailing newline.  `@*...*` allows inline
comments.  Escapes are indicated with `@\...`; diacritics with
`@^...`; icons with `@|...`; and emoji with `@:...:`.  `@%...` and
`@%%...%%`  indicate "significators," which are distinctive forms of
variable assignment intended to specify per-document identification
information in a format easy to parse externally, _e.g._, to indicate
metadata.  In-place expressions are specified with `@$...$...$`.
Context name and line number changes can be made with `@?...` and
`@!...`, respectively.  `@<...>` markup is customizable by the user
and can be used for any desired purpose.  `` @`...` `` allows literal
escaping of any EmPy markup.  And finally, a `@@` sequence (the
prefix repeated once) expands to a single literal at sign.

The prefix (which defaults to `@`) can be changed
with `-p`/`--prefix=CHAR` (_environment variable:_ `EMPY_PREFIX`, 
_configuration variable:_ `prefix`).


### Getting the software

The current version of EmPy is 4.0.1.

The official URL for this Web site is 
<http://www.alcyone.com/software/empy/>.

The latest version of the software is available in a tarball here:
<http://www.alcyone.com/software/empy/empy-latest.tar.gz>.

The software can be installed through PIP via this shell command:

```
% python3 -m pip install empy
...
```


For information about upgrading from 3._x_ to 4._x_, see
<http://www.alcyone.com/software/empy/ANNOUNCE.html#changes>.


### Requirements

EmPy works with any modern version of Python.  Python version 3._x_ is
expected to be the default and all source file references to the
Python interpreter (_e.g._, the bangpath of the .py scripts) use
`python3`.  EmPy also has legacy support for versions of Python going
back all the way to 2.3, with special emphasis on 2.7 regardless of
its end-of-life status.  It has no dependency requirements on any
third-party modules and can run directly off of a stock Python
interpreter.

EmPy will run on any operating system with a full-featured Python
interpreter; this includes, but is probably not limited to, Linux,
Windows, and macOS (Darwin).  Using EmPy requires knowledge of the
[Python language](https://www.python.org/).

EmPy is also compatible with several different Python implementations:

| Implementation | Supported versions | Description |
| --- | --- | --- |
| CPython | 2.3 to 2.7; 3.0 and up | Standard implementation in C |
| PyPy | 2.7; 3.2 and up | Implementation with just-in-time compiler |
| IronPython | 2.7; 3.4 and up | Implementation for .NET CLR and Mono |
| Jython | 2.7 (and up?) | Implementation for JVM |

It's probable that EmPy is compatible with earlier versions than those
listed here (potentially going all the way back to 2.3), but this has
not been tested.

Only a few .py module file(s) are needed to use EmPy; they can be
installed system-wide through a distribution package, a third-party
module/executable, or just dropped into any desired directory in the
`PYTHONPATH`.  A minimal installation need only install the em.py
file, either as an importable module and an executable, or both,
depending on the user's needs.

EmPy also has optional support for several [third-party
modules](#third-party-emoji-modules); see [Emoji
markup](#emoji-markup) for details.

The testing system included (the test.sh script and the tests and
suites directories) is intended to run on Unix-like systems with a
Bourne-like shell (_e.g._, sh, bash, zsh, etc.).  EmPy is routinely
tested with all supported versions of all available interpreters.

If you find an incompatibility with your Python interpreter or
operating system, [let me know](#reporting-bugs).


### License

This software is licensed under
[BSD (3-Clause)](https://opensource.org/licenses/bsd-3-clause/).


### Recent release history (since 3._x_)

4.0.1 (2023 Dec 24)

: Add root context argument, serializers, and idents to interpreter;
   fix `setContext...`  methods so they also modify the currents stack;
   better backward compatibility for `expand` function and
   `CompatibilityError`; fix inconsistent stack usage with `expand`
   method; add error dispatchers, cleaner error handling and
   `ignoreErrors`; have `expand` method/function raise
   exceptions to caller; eliminate need for `FullContext` class
   distinct from `Context`; support comments in "clean" controls; add
   `--no-none-symbol` option; add clearer errors for removed literal
   markup; add `Container` support class in `emlib`; hide non-standard
   proxy attributes and methods; support string errors (why not);
   update and expand tests; help subsystem and documentation updates.

4.0 (2023 Nov 29)

: A major revamp, refresh, and modernization.  Major new features
   include inline comments `@*...*`; backquote literals `` @`...`
   ``; chained if-then-else expressions; functional expressions
   `@f{...}`; full support for `@[try]`, `@[while ...]` and `@[with
   ...]`  control markup; `@[defined ...]` control markup; stringized
   and multiline significators; named escapes `@\^{...}`; diacritics
   `@^...`; icons `@|...`; emojis `@:...:`; configurations; full
   Unicode and file buffering support; proxy now reference counted;
   hooks can override behavior; many bug fixes; an extensive builtin
   help system (`emhelp`); and rewritten and expanded documentation.
   Changes include relicensing to BSD, interpreter constructor now
   requires keyword arguments, `-d`/`--delete-on-error` instead of "fully
   buffered files"; cleaned up environment variables; "repr" markup
   replaced with emoji markup; remove literal markups `@)`, `@]`,
   `@}`; context line markup `@!...` no longer pre-adjusts line;
   custom markup `@<...>` now parsed more sensibly; filter shortcuts
   removed; context now track column and character count; auxiliary
   classes moved to `emlib` module; use `argv` instead of `argc` for
   interpreter arguments.  See [Full list of changes between EmPy 3._x_
   and
 
4.0](http://www.alcyone.com/software/empy/ANNOUNCE.html#full-list-of-changes-between-empy-3-x-and-4-0)
   for a more comprehensive list.

-- 
Erik Max Francis && max at alcyone.com && http://www.alcyone.com/max/
  San Jose, CA, USA && 37 18 N 121 57 W && Skype erikmaxfrancis
   To be refutable is not the least charm of a theory.
    -- Friedrich Nietzsche