From alan at csail.mit.edu  Fri Jan  1 00:23:38 2021
From: alan at csail.mit.edu (Alan Bawden)
Date: Fri, 01 Jan 2021 00:23:38 -0500
Subject: Control stript which is runing in background.
References: <rslpup$1nek$1@gioia.aioe.org> <X+5wPxxrDjWAkjyQ@cskk.homeip.net>
 <mailman.588.1609461828.7193.python-list@python.org>
 <rsm28r$al0$1@gioia.aioe.org>
Message-ID: <86a6ttjkmd.fsf@williamsburg.bawden.org>

jak <nospam at please.ty> writes:

   Running the command:

   $ cat bible.txt > cmdpipe & cat bible.txt > cmdpipe & cat bible.txt > cmdpipe

   the three texts do not mix....

The three texts do not mix as long at the contents of bible.txt is short
enough (and provided `cat' only calls `write' once).  In the POSIX
specification, the manual page for the `write' system call describes
writing to a pipe or FIFO as follows:

  Write requests of {PIPE_BUF} bytes or less shall not be interleaved
  with data from other processes doing writes on the same pipe.  Writes
  of greater than {PIPE_BUF} bytes may have data interleaved, on
  arbitrary boundaries, with writes by other processes, whether or not
  the O_NONBLOCK flag of the file status flags is set.

-- 
Alan Bawden

From nospam at please.ty  Fri Jan  1 04:58:48 2021
From: nospam at please.ty (jak)
Date: Fri, 1 Jan 2021 10:58:48 +0100
Subject: Control stript which is runing in background.
References: <rslpup$1nek$1@gioia.aioe.org> <X+5wPxxrDjWAkjyQ@cskk.homeip.net>
 <mailman.588.1609461828.7193.python-list@python.org>
 <rsm28r$al0$1@gioia.aioe.org> <86a6ttjkmd.fsf@williamsburg.bawden.org>
Message-ID: <rsmrom$m9e$1@gioia.aioe.org>

Il 01/01/2021 06:23, Alan Bawden ha scritto:
> jak <nospam at please.ty> writes:
> 
>     Running the command:
> 
>     $ cat bible.txt > cmdpipe & cat bible.txt > cmdpipe & cat bible.txt > cmdpipe
> 
>     the three texts do not mix....
> 
> The three texts do not mix as long at the contents of bible.txt is short
> enough (and provided `cat' only calls `write' once).  In the POSIX
> specification, the manual page for the `write' system call describes
> writing to a pipe or FIFO as follows:
> 
>    Write requests of {PIPE_BUF} bytes or less shall not be interleaved
>    with data from other processes doing writes on the same pipe.  Writes
>    of greater than {PIPE_BUF} bytes may have data interleaved, on
>    arbitrary boundaries, with writes by other processes, whether or not
>    the O_NONBLOCK flag of the file status flags is set.
> 
Ok. And...
      ...Running the command:

      $ cat bible.txt > cmdpipe & cat bible.txt > cmdpipe & cat 
bible.txt > cmdpipe

      the three texts do not mix....

From __peter__ at web.de  Fri Jan  1 05:03:34 2021
From: __peter__ at web.de (Peter Otten)
Date: Fri, 1 Jan 2021 11:03:34 +0100
Subject: Funny error message
In-Reply-To: <CA+HdcZhB3mP9RYjUHDgKOvEuEVQP-3xQA7fNbPrE=J+xeX+Avw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CA+HdcZhB3mP9RYjUHDgKOvEuEVQP-3xQA7fNbPrE=J+xeX+Avw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <3ab14244-7681-a93b-57f9-75a6bb7beacb@web.de>

On 31/12/2020 23:46, Bob van der Poel wrote:

> When I run python from the command line and generate an error I get the
> following:
> 
> Python 3.8.5 (default, Jul 28 2020, 12:59:40)
> [GCC 9.3.0] on linux
> Type "help", "copyright", "credits" or "license" for more information.
>>>> z
> /home/bob/.local/lib/python3.8/site-packages/requests/__init__.py:89:
> RequestsDependencyWarning: urllib3 (1.24.3) or chardet (4.0.0) doesn't
> match a supported version!
>    warnings.warn("urllib3 ({}) or chardet ({}) doesn't match a supported "
> Traceback (most recent call last):
>    File "<stdin>", line 1, in <module>
> NameError: name 'z' is not defined
> 
> I understand "z in not defined" ... but what's with the warnings?

It looks like Python tries to import requests as a side effect of 
printing the traceback.
Start the interpreter in verbose mode

$ python -v

and trigger the name error again to see which module triggers that import.


From nospam at please.ty  Fri Jan  1 05:11:47 2021
From: nospam at please.ty (jak)
Date: Fri, 1 Jan 2021 11:11:47 +0100
Subject: Control stript which is runing in background.
References: <rslpup$1nek$1@gioia.aioe.org> <X+5wPxxrDjWAkjyQ@cskk.homeip.net>
 <mailman.588.1609461828.7193.python-list@python.org>
 <rsm28r$al0$1@gioia.aioe.org> <X+6Toa3apy918iUD@scrozzle>
 <mailman.589.1609470886.7193.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <rsmsh1$107p$1@gioia.aioe.org>

Il 01/01/2021 04:14, 2QdxY4RzWzUUiLuE at potatochowder.com ha scritto:
> On 2021-01-01 at 03:43:43 +0100,
> Regarding "Re: Control stript which is runing in background.,"
> jak <nospam at please.ty> wrote:
> 
>> Il 01/01/2021 01:43, Cameron Simpson ha scritto:
>>> On 01Jan2021 01:21, jak <nospam at please.ty> wrote:
>>>> Il 01/01/2021 00:58, 2QdxY4RzWzUUiLuE at potatochowder.com ha scritto:
>>>>> Most of the time, I have several shells open, often with their own
>>>>> background jobs running.  Limiting write permission on the pipe to "me"
>>>>> wouldn't prevent concurrent access.
>>>>
>>>> This is true but there would be no difference if this happened through
>>>> a socket.
>>>
>>> Accessing a socket makes a distinct separate data connection - other
>>> openers do not conflict with it. That's the critical difference between
>>> a socket and a pipe in terms of functionality, and why sockets have a
>>> connect/accept step.
>>>
>>> Cheers,
>>> Cameron Simpson <cs at cskk.id.au>
>>>
>>
>> Maybe the fact that I'm not English and I don't know the language well
>> doesn't allow me to express myself clearly. Try it one more time:
>> The OP would like to give some command to a script that is running. How?
>> With a script that sends commands to it. One of the ways, as mentioned,
>> is by using a mini socket server. Given the needs of the OP and the fact
>> that sockets are a limited resource in a system, I took the liberty of
>> proposing a simple alternative: using a named pipe, also because, IMO,
>> sockets, in this case, are an overkill. with a few lines of code in a
>> thread in the running script they can allow it to receive commands:
>> #-----------------
>> import os, errno
>>
>> fnpipe = 'cmdpipe'
>>
>> try:
>>      os.mkfifo(fnpipe)
>> except OSError as e:
>>      if e.errno != errno.EEXIST:
>>          raise
>> while True:
>>      with open(fnpipe, 'rt', 1) as fifo:
>>          for line in fifo:
>>              print(line, ends='')
>> #-----------------
>>
>> Running the command:
>>
>> $ cat bible.txt > cmdpipe & cat bible.txt > cmdpipe & cat bible.txt >
>> cmdpipe
>>
>> the three texts do not mix. IMO, the OP should be enough. after that, I
>> know that a pipe is more like a queue than a soket and in this case a
>> socket, IMO, is wasted.
> 
> Only the OP knows for sure.  :-)   Does the server send data back to the
> client that made the request?  Are the requests (and the responses, if
> any) small enough to be sent/received atomically?  *If* the answers are
> no and yes, then you're right, a named pipe would be good enough.  If
> not, then a socket *might* be better.  Until the OP clarifies, we can't
> tell.
> 
>> greetings, hoping to have been clearer than before.
> 
> I think you were clear enough before, but you may not have considered
> things the OP did not specify.  One of the hardest parts of software
> development is understanding and specifying the actual problem to be
> solved.  I've never done that in a second language (I'm nowhere near
> fluent in anything other than English); I can only imagine the extra
> layers of complexity.
> 

This is the OP's initial request:

> Hi. 
> I would like to make something like this:
> A python script would run headlessly in the background.
> I would like to control the script from the command line using other python scripts or from the python shell.
> From time to time I would ask the main script to create a popup window with an image or a plot.
> What would be the proper way to approach it. How to make communication between two scripts?
> Thank you.
> Petro.

I have suggested an alternative way for his necessity.
It will be up to him to decide which one he should adopt. That way he
has a choice, at least.
I don't know where you work. I know, however, that in these zones, if
you do more than necessary wasting their time, they will kick you away.

From mkarkera98 at gmail.com  Fri Jan  1 06:17:42 2021
From: mkarkera98 at gmail.com (Meghna Karkera)
Date: Fri, 1 Jan 2021 16:47:42 +0530
Subject: Plotting in python for Monte Carlo Method
Message-ID: <CA+Vnj_oMc-QwbjrR=F_RFe4qoH0=girkcoWpnJ2vCXqUaEZNkQ@mail.gmail.com>

Dear Respected Sir

May I request you to help me plot the number of histories versus standard
deviation along with mean for integral of 2x dx from 0 to 5 abtained using
the Monte Carlo python program.

I've calculated the integral of 2x dx from 0 to 5 using the Monte Carlo
method described in the following link. https://youtu.be/WAf0rqwAvgg

Thanks

Sincerely
Meghna

From nulla.epistola at web.de  Fri Jan  1 07:45:06 2021
From: nulla.epistola at web.de (Sibylle Koczian)
Date: Fri, 1 Jan 2021 13:45:06 +0100
Subject: help
In-Reply-To: <46b11e77-ac1c-3071-3a07-8b23fb0c898c@wichmann.us>
References: <CAJPJpF_8q8KS1BMMU8J0ZfYBSks1Y0LVnAMcJefkASK3hF--8w@mail.gmail.com>
 <ff34e6c7-aa2b-7bad-7edc-77f17bb0ed9b@wichmann.us>
 <CAJPJpF9-2FTZAuJpVwkyRu9VtvqiV6pVc51pUB4F7EZ_TGz0AQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <46b11e77-ac1c-3071-3a07-8b23fb0c898c@wichmann.us>
Message-ID: <8e3d9019-a318-2f03-1c69-58a48a6f5fd9@web.de>

Am 31.12.2020 um 18:06 schrieb Mats Wichmann:
>> What you're doing is going to give you probably unexpected results 
> anyway. Here's why:? (when it's set up properly) when clicking from 
> explorer Windows will create a window to run the Python interpreter in, 
> and when your script finishes, Python quits. Windows will take that as a 
> clue that the window is no longer needed, and it will be discarded. This 
> will usually have the visual effect of a window flashing onto the screen 
> and then vanishing, as if things were broken, but they're not.? Only a 
> Python script that is written to manage a display window, is going to 
> stay around. An old is to add an input() call at the end of your script, 
> so it waits for you to hit the enter key before finishing, and that will 
> leave the window open)
> 
But that doesn't help, if the script raises an exception. In that case 
the input() call won't be reached and the window will close anyway 
before you could see anything. And in a script with errors that's even 
worse. Same effect with the "run" window.

> Either run your scripts from a command shell...
> 
It's really bad that Windows doesn't put links to the command shell on 
the desktop and into the task bar on installation.

> Or use an editor or IDE that has an integrated way to run your programs 
> there in the editor's environment - here the IDE manages the windows so 
> you don't get the opens-then-closes effect.
> 
> Hope this helps.
> 



From nulla.epistola at web.de  Fri Jan  1 07:45:06 2021
From: nulla.epistola at web.de (Sibylle Koczian)
Date: Fri, 1 Jan 2021 13:45:06 +0100
Subject: help
In-Reply-To: <46b11e77-ac1c-3071-3a07-8b23fb0c898c@wichmann.us>
References: <CAJPJpF_8q8KS1BMMU8J0ZfYBSks1Y0LVnAMcJefkASK3hF--8w@mail.gmail.com>
 <ff34e6c7-aa2b-7bad-7edc-77f17bb0ed9b@wichmann.us>
 <CAJPJpF9-2FTZAuJpVwkyRu9VtvqiV6pVc51pUB4F7EZ_TGz0AQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <46b11e77-ac1c-3071-3a07-8b23fb0c898c@wichmann.us>
Message-ID: <8e3d9019-a318-2f03-1c69-58a48a6f5fd9@web.de>

Am 31.12.2020 um 18:06 schrieb Mats Wichmann:
>> What you're doing is going to give you probably unexpected results 
> anyway. Here's why:? (when it's set up properly) when clicking from 
> explorer Windows will create a window to run the Python interpreter in, 
> and when your script finishes, Python quits. Windows will take that as a 
> clue that the window is no longer needed, and it will be discarded. This 
> will usually have the visual effect of a window flashing onto the screen 
> and then vanishing, as if things were broken, but they're not.? Only a 
> Python script that is written to manage a display window, is going to 
> stay around. An old is to add an input() call at the end of your script, 
> so it waits for you to hit the enter key before finishing, and that will 
> leave the window open)
> 
But that doesn't help, if the script raises an exception. In that case 
the input() call won't be reached and the window will close anyway 
before you could see anything. And in a script with errors that's even 
worse. Same effect with the "run" window.

> Either run your scripts from a command shell...
> 
It's really bad that Windows doesn't put links to the command shell on 
the desktop and into the task bar on installation.

> Or use an editor or IDE that has an integrated way to run your programs 
> there in the editor's environment - here the IDE manages the windows so 
> you don't get the opens-then-closes effect.
> 
> Hope this helps.
> 


From john.steve.ur at gmail.com  Fri Jan  1 08:22:26 2021
From: john.steve.ur at gmail.com (john steve)
Date: Fri, 1 Jan 2021 05:22:26 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Why do I have both /usr/lib/python3 and /usr/lib/python3.8?
In-Reply-To: <deoubh-c55.ln1@esprimo.zbmc.eu>
References: <9ftrbh-97i3.ln1@esprimo.zbmc.eu> <sm01rf7ah2p.fsf@lakka.kapsi.fi>
 <mailman.574.1609345144.7193.python-list@python.org>
 <deoubh-c55.ln1@esprimo.zbmc.eu>
Message-ID: <bef16e22-4e2d-4ae9-970d-c4baef377845n@googlegroups.com>

On Wednesday, December 30, 2020 at 9:03:28 AM UTC-8, Chris Green wrote:
> Anssi Saari <a... at sci.fi> wrote: 
> > Chris Green <c... at isbd.net> writes: 
> > 
> > > Why are there both /usr/lib/python3 and /usr/lib/python3.8 on my 
> > > x[ubuntu] system? 
> > 
> > While it's more of an Ubuntu (or Debian) question better asked in some 
> > relevant Linux forum, in the end it's because some package managers 
> > decided to do that. You can use commands like these to see which 
> > packages put stuff in which directory: 
> > 
> > dpkg -S /usr/lib/python3.8 
> > dpkg -S /usr/lib/python3 
> > 
> > On my Debian system the corresponding output looks like this: 
> > 
> > $ dpkg -S /usr/lib/python3.7 
> > python3.7, libpython3.7-minimal:amd64, python3-tk:amd64, 
> > libpython3.7-dev:amd64, libpython3.7-stdlib:amd64, libpython3.7:amd64, 
> > python3-distutils, python3-lib2to3: /usr/lib/python3.7 
> > 
> > $ dpkg -S /usr/lib/python3 
> > python3-scipy, python3-opengl, python3-statsmodels, iotop, 
> > python3-reportlab-accel:amd64, python3-magic, python3-pkg-resources, 
> > python3-kiwisolver, python3.7, python3-pandas-lib, python3-kerberos, 
> > python3-lz4, python3-renderpm:amd64, python3-numexpr, 
> > python3-cffi-backend, python3-crypto, python3-tables, python3-rencode, 
> > python3-gi, python3-dbus, devscripts, python3-gpg, python3-pyasn1, 
> > python3-py, python3-eyed3, pdfarranger, python3-pip, python3-virtualenv, 
> > xpra, python3-pandas, python3-pil:amd64, python3-requests, 
> > python3-urllib3, python3-psutil, python3-paramiko, python3-netifaces, 
> > python3-patsy, python3-gssapi, python3-sklearn, python3-cycler, 
> > python3-sip, python3-cairo:amd64, python3-six, python3-chardet, 
> > python3-nose, python3-debian, python3-wheel, python3-attr, 
> > python3-soupsieve, python3-bcrypt, python3-bs4, python3-sklearn-lib, 
> > python3-scour, python3-setuptools, python3-entrypoints, 
> > python3-gi-cairo, python3-cups, python3-keyrings.alt, python3-pluggy, 
> > python3-tz, python3-ifaddr, python3-joblib, python3-cvxopt, 
> > python3-secretstorage, python3-reportlab, python3-more-itertools, 
> > python3-keyring, python3-asn1crypto, python3-html5lib, python3-dns, 
> > python3-decorator, python3-dateutil, meson, python3-pexpect, 
> > python3-idna, python3-seaborn, lsb-release, python3-numpy, 
> > python3-brotli, python3-tables-lib, python3-lxml:amd64, python3-pytest, 
> > python3-simplejson, python3-nacl, python3-zeroconf, python3-xdg, 
> > python3-libvoikko, python3-gst-1.0, python3-pypdf2, python3-evdev, 
> > python3-matplotlib, python3-statsmodels-lib, python3-cryptography, 
> > python3-certifi, python3-atomicwrites, python3-pyparsing, 
> > python3-ptyprocess, python3-webencodings, piper, python3-uno, 
> > python3-apt, python3-setproctitle:amd64, hplip: /usr/lib/python3 
> > 
> > So I'd say as a rule stuff relevant to the specific version of python 
> > goes in the specific version directory (i.e. /usr/lib/python3.8 in your 
> > case) and python software packages in general go in /usr/lib/python3. 
> >
> Yes, there are some oddities though, for example python3.7 seems to be 
> installed in both locations (python3.8 in my case). 
> 
> -- 
> Chris Green 
> ?
some tools require any of them.

From 2QdxY4RzWzUUiLuE at potatochowder.com  Fri Jan  1 08:49:48 2021
From: 2QdxY4RzWzUUiLuE at potatochowder.com (2QdxY4RzWzUUiLuE at potatochowder.com)
Date: Fri, 1 Jan 2021 07:49:48 -0600
Subject: Control stript which is runing in background.
In-Reply-To: <rsmsh1$107p$1@gioia.aioe.org>
References: <rslpup$1nek$1@gioia.aioe.org> <X+5wPxxrDjWAkjyQ@cskk.homeip.net>
 <mailman.588.1609461828.7193.python-list@python.org>
 <rsm28r$al0$1@gioia.aioe.org> <X+6Toa3apy918iUD@scrozzle>
 <mailman.589.1609470886.7193.python-list@python.org>
 <rsmsh1$107p$1@gioia.aioe.org>
Message-ID: <X+8ofKIZSUZUQa7Q@scrozzle>

On 2021-01-01 at 11:11:47 +0100,
jak <nospam at please.ty> wrote:

> Il 01/01/2021 04:14, 2QdxY4RzWzUUiLuE at potatochowder.com ha scritto:
> > On 2021-01-01 at 03:43:43 +0100,
> > jak <nospam at please.ty> wrote:
> > 
> > I think you were clear enough before, but you may not have
> > considered things the OP did not specify.  One of the hardest parts
> > of software development is understanding and specifying the actual
> > problem to be solved.  I've never done that in a second language
> > (I'm nowhere near fluent in anything other than English); I can only
> > imagine the extra layers of complexity.
> 
> This is the OP's initial request:
> 
> > Hi. I would like to make something like this:
> > A python script would run headlessly in the background.
> > I would like to control the script from the command line using other python scripts or from the python shell.
> > From time to time I would ask the main script to create a popup window with an image or a plot.
> > What would be the proper way to approach it. How to make communication between two scripts?
> > Thank you.
> > Petro.
> 
> I have suggested an alternative way for his necessity.
> It will be up to him to decide which one he should adopt. That way he
> has a choice, at least.
> I don't know where you work. I know, however, that in these zones, if
> you do more than necessary wasting their time, they will kick you away.

So what is necessary?  Does "control the script" include reporting
success or failure of a request?  The OP also said "communication
between two scripts," which to me means two way traffic.  Only the OP
knows for sure, and at least one of us might get it wrong if we don't
ask, or at least acknowledge that we don't know.

If I start with a named pipe because it's good enough for Phase Zero, or
Version 0.0.1, or Release Experimental Alpha, then I'm going to end up
ripping that out or reinventing something that already existed on top of
that named pipe.

Suppose I look ahead just a little, and use a socket in the first place.
Yes, you could argue that it's more than what was necessary and kick me
away.  Will you kick me again when you can build on it (I can't; I'm
gone) instead of having to rebuild what already worked?

I'm retired now, but I at one employer, I worked on products with (a)
lifetimes measured in decades, (b) extremely expensive (money, time,
convenience, etc.) upgrade/maintenance cycles, and therefore (c) strict
interoperability requirements.?  A little bit of foresight and extra
analysis up front went a long way towards saving a lot of headaches and
development resources (and customers!)  in the long term.
Communications protocols in particular had to be well thought out, and
often more complex than was immediately necessary, because backwards and
forwards compatibility were not negotiable.

Again, I'm not (and no one else is, either) saying that your solution is
wrong or won't work.  Your solution may even be the be the best solution
to the OP's problem.  All I'm saying is that we can't know until the OP
tells us more.  Yes, the OP has a choice to make.  Maybe we have helped,
not by making that choice, but by giving it to the OP with enough
supporting information to make it.

? Think about a system containing dozens of individually field
upgradeable components.  It had to work when a customer upgraded one
component at a time (over the course of weeks or months), or plugged in
an old component while they were waiting for a broken one to be
repaired, or added a brand new component to a system that hadn't been
changed or upgraded for years.  There was no such thing as telling the
customer to wait, or to make them take down the entire system to upgrade
everything at once.  *That* was what was necessary.

From eryksun at gmail.com  Fri Jan  1 10:00:22 2021
From: eryksun at gmail.com (Eryk Sun)
Date: Fri, 1 Jan 2021 09:00:22 -0600
Subject: help
In-Reply-To: <8e3d9019-a318-2f03-1c69-58a48a6f5fd9@web.de>
References: <CAJPJpF_8q8KS1BMMU8J0ZfYBSks1Y0LVnAMcJefkASK3hF--8w@mail.gmail.com>
 <ff34e6c7-aa2b-7bad-7edc-77f17bb0ed9b@wichmann.us>
 <CAJPJpF9-2FTZAuJpVwkyRu9VtvqiV6pVc51pUB4F7EZ_TGz0AQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <46b11e77-ac1c-3071-3a07-8b23fb0c898c@wichmann.us>
 <8e3d9019-a318-2f03-1c69-58a48a6f5fd9@web.de>
Message-ID: <CACL+1atAyfRFNM2rjU_hxSTsWB1ycFpD2947t5JD8FYeF-1v1w@mail.gmail.com>

On 1/1/21, Sibylle Koczian <nulla.epistola at web.de> wrote:
>
> But that doesn't help, if the script raises an exception. In that case
> the input() call won't be reached and the window will close anyway
> before you could see anything. And in a script with errors that's even
> worse. Same effect with the "run" window.

The simplest, best option is running the script from an existing shell
that owns the console session.  That said, here are a couple
alternatives to calling input() in a `finally` block.

If you have .py files associated with the py launcher, for testing you
can use a shebang such as `#!/usr/bin/python3 -i`. The "-i" option
enters interactive mode after executing the script, even if there's an
unhandled Python exception.

Entering interactive mode won't work if the process crashes at a low
level. To handle that, you can instead spawn a child process in the
console session that waits forever. A good candidate is "waitfor.exe",
which opens a mailslot and waits for it to be signaled. For example:

    import subprocess
    subprocess.Popen('waitfor.exe ever')

This process will still be attached to the console session after
Python exits. You can kill it by closing the console window, or by
running `waitfor.exe /si ever` to signal it.

From barry at barrys-emacs.org  Fri Jan  1 11:35:16 2021
From: barry at barrys-emacs.org (Barry Scott)
Date: Fri, 1 Jan 2021 16:35:16 +0000
Subject: Why do I have both /usr/lib/python3 and /usr/lib/python3.8?
In-Reply-To: <9ftrbh-97i3.ln1@esprimo.zbmc.eu>
References: <9ftrbh-97i3.ln1@esprimo.zbmc.eu>
Message-ID: <0B4092CE-BD13-4BFC-B5C9-35645FE26186@barrys-emacs.org>



> On 29 Dec 2020, at 15:10, Chris Green <cl at isbd.net> wrote:
> 
> Why are there both /usr/lib/python3 and /usr/lib/python3.8 on my
> x[ubuntu] system?
> 
> /usr/lib/python3 has just the dist-packages directory in it,
> /usr/lib/python3.8 has lots of individual python files in it as well
> as quite a number of directories.  
> 
> There's also a /usr/lib/python3.9 directory even though Ubuntu hasn't
> moved to python3.9 yet.
> 

It is common on linux systems for python3 to be a sym link to the systems preferred
version of python3 to use.

It is also common to be able to install multiple versions of python on a system.
Both older and newer versions.

Usually I use '#!/usr/bin/python3' in my scripts unless I know that a script
has version dependences.

By using python3 you do not have to edit your scripts shebang lines when
your distro updates to a newer version of python.

If you are testing your code against multiple version of python you need the
version specific names like python3.8, python3.10 etc.

Barry

FYI this is what I have installed (lspy is a personal script):

$ lspy
/bin/python: 3.9.1 final 0
/bin/python2: 2.7.18 final 0
/bin/python2.7: 2.7.18 final 0
/bin/python3: 3.9.1 final 0
/bin/python3.10: 3.10.0 alpha 3
/bin/python3.4: 3.4.10 final 0
/bin/python3.5: 3.5.10 final 0
/bin/python3.6: 3.6.12 final 0
/bin/python3.9: 3.9.1 final 0
/bin/python34: 3.4.10 final 0
/bin/python35: 3.5.10 final 0
/usr/bin/python: 3.9.1 final 0
/usr/bin/python2: 2.7.18 final 0
/usr/bin/python2.7: 2.7.18 final 0
/usr/bin/python3: 3.9.1 final 0
/usr/bin/python3.10: 3.10.0 alpha 3
/usr/bin/python3.4: 3.4.10 final 0
/usr/bin/python3.5: 3.5.10 final 0
/usr/bin/python3.6: 3.6.12 final 0
/usr/bin/python3.9: 3.9.1 final 0
/usr/bin/python34: 3.4.10 final 0
/usr/bin/python35: 3.5.10 final 0



From barry at barrys-emacs.org  Fri Jan  1 11:39:56 2021
From: barry at barrys-emacs.org (Barry Scott)
Date: Fri, 1 Jan 2021 16:39:56 +0000
Subject: Does windows edit .py file shebangs?
Message-ID: <00C1C4B3-01C9-4DE9-AD24-17A0C209D998@barrys-emacs.org>

I found python scripts have had their shebang lines edited behind my back.

The shebang line I'm seeing is:

    #!C:\Users\barry\AppData\Local\Microsoft\WindowsApps\python3.EXE

Is this Microsoft being "helpful"?
Does anyone know what I will have done to best with this "help"?

What do I need to do to prevent this happening?

Barry


From bob at mellowood.ca  Fri Jan  1 11:39:53 2021
From: bob at mellowood.ca (Bob van der Poel)
Date: Fri, 1 Jan 2021 09:39:53 -0700
Subject: Funny error message
In-Reply-To: <3ab14244-7681-a93b-57f9-75a6bb7beacb@web.de>
References: <CA+HdcZhB3mP9RYjUHDgKOvEuEVQP-3xQA7fNbPrE=J+xeX+Avw@mail.gmail.com>
 <3ab14244-7681-a93b-57f9-75a6bb7beacb@web.de>
Message-ID: <CA+HdcZjuw3oz_O3x71YZHWGFmAYYXYeSWvQ_zSs-CrjjwLK3hg@mail.gmail.com>

It appears that a couple of things are happening ... and not being a python
install expert by a long shot, none of it makes sense to me.

But, let me first state that I've never screwed around with the python
installation. I let the Ubuntu packager take care of that.

- running "python -v" I get A LOT of data about various modules being
loaded, etc. I see that most of the modules are loaded from the system dir
/usr/lib/python3.8 but some from .local/lib/python3.8. I have never created
the .local tree so I, again, assume that the installer is doing this. BTW,
sys.path is:
['', '/usr/lib/python38.zip', '/usr/lib/python3.8',
'/usr/lib/python3.8/lib-dynload', '/home/bob/.local

   /lib/python3.8/site-packages', '/usr/local/lib/python3.8/dist-packages',
'/usr/lib/python3/dist-packages']

- running python -v gives too much info. I really can't see what is causing
the unneeded text, but assume it is "requests". Note that this is the
module from .local. Experimenting, I deleted .local/.../requests and it is
now using /usr/.../requests. I've undeleted the .local version.

- creating a one line script with only a bad command in it and running
"python -v script.py >err_file" does not give the lengthy printout. The
same error message is displayed on the terminal.

I really have no idea ... and don't care that much, except it is annoying
to have these same lines repeated over and over again after every error.
Could this be a bug in requests?


On Fri, Jan 1, 2021 at 3:03 AM Peter Otten <__peter__ at web.de> wrote:

> On 31/12/2020 23:46, Bob van der Poel wrote:
>
> > When I run python from the command line and generate an error I get the
> > following:
> >
> > Python 3.8.5 (default, Jul 28 2020, 12:59:40)
> > [GCC 9.3.0] on linux
> > Type "help", "copyright", "credits" or "license" for more information.
> >>>> z
> > /home/bob/.local/lib/python3.8/site-packages/requests/__init__.py:89:
> > RequestsDependencyWarning: urllib3 (1.24.3) or chardet (4.0.0) doesn't
> > match a supported version!
> >    warnings.warn("urllib3 ({}) or chardet ({}) doesn't match a supported
> "
> > Traceback (most recent call last):
> >    File "<stdin>", line 1, in <module>
> > NameError: name 'z' is not defined
> >
> > I understand "z in not defined" ... but what's with the warnings?
>
> It looks like Python tries to import requests as a side effect of
> printing the traceback.
> Start the interpreter in verbose mode
>
> $ python -v
>
> and trigger the name error again to see which module triggers that import.
>
> --
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
>


-- 

**** Listen to my FREE CD at http://www.mellowood.ca/music/cedars ****
Bob van der Poel ** Wynndel, British Columbia, CANADA **
EMAIL: bob at mellowood.ca
WWW:   http://www.mellowood.ca

From rosuav at gmail.com  Fri Jan  1 11:42:06 2021
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Sat, 2 Jan 2021 03:42:06 +1100
Subject: Why do I have both /usr/lib/python3 and /usr/lib/python3.8?
In-Reply-To: <0B4092CE-BD13-4BFC-B5C9-35645FE26186@barrys-emacs.org>
References: <9ftrbh-97i3.ln1@esprimo.zbmc.eu>
 <0B4092CE-BD13-4BFC-B5C9-35645FE26186@barrys-emacs.org>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmq=_fo3Co2Gh-Ousq4L40FcE5h_4pj2z5_w-3A-S_hfzw@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Jan 2, 2021 at 3:36 AM Barry Scott <barry at barrys-emacs.org> wrote:
>
> FYI this is what I have installed (lspy is a personal script):
>
> $ lspy
> /bin/python: 3.9.1 final 0
> /bin/python2: 2.7.18 final 0
> /bin/python2.7: 2.7.18 final 0
> /bin/python3: 3.9.1 final 0
> /bin/python3.10: 3.10.0 alpha 3
> /bin/python3.4: 3.4.10 final 0
> /bin/python3.5: 3.5.10 final 0
> /bin/python3.6: 3.6.12 final 0
> /bin/python3.9: 3.9.1 final 0
> /bin/python34: 3.4.10 final 0
> /bin/python35: 3.5.10 final 0
> /usr/bin/python: 3.9.1 final 0
> /usr/bin/python2: 2.7.18 final 0
> /usr/bin/python2.7: 2.7.18 final 0
> /usr/bin/python3: 3.9.1 final 0
> /usr/bin/python3.10: 3.10.0 alpha 3
> /usr/bin/python3.4: 3.4.10 final 0
> /usr/bin/python3.5: 3.5.10 final 0
> /usr/bin/python3.6: 3.6.12 final 0
> /usr/bin/python3.9: 3.9.1 final 0
> /usr/bin/python34: 3.4.10 final 0
> /usr/bin/python35: 3.5.10 final 0
>

Pretty similar to mine, except that (a) most of the Pythons are in
/usr/local/bin rather than /bin or /usr/bin, and (b) with just a
couple of exceptions, they're all alphas and betas (eg 3.7.0a4+) built
from git. I keep a single 2.7 around (provided by Debian Stable), and
a couple of different 3.x versions are Debian-provided, with all the
rest (from 3.4 to 3.10) hanging around from having been built.

ChrisA

From bob at mellowood.ca  Fri Jan  1 11:50:07 2021
From: bob at mellowood.ca (Bob van der Poel)
Date: Fri, 1 Jan 2021 09:50:07 -0700
Subject: Funny error message
In-Reply-To: <b7f01ecd-cd56-4445-9651-4c690b5b8192@DancesWithMice.info>
References: <CA+HdcZhB3mP9RYjUHDgKOvEuEVQP-3xQA7fNbPrE=J+xeX+Avw@mail.gmail.com>
 <b7f01ecd-cd56-4445-9651-4c690b5b8192@DancesWithMice.info>
Message-ID: <CA+HdcZh0W-AxZnfPcoVuOcva8gU5m9v8T9U-jhgbKqbuyyCXzQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Dec 31, 2020 at 9:25 PM DL Neil via Python-list <
python-list at python.org> wrote:

> On 1/1/21 11:46 AM, Bob van der Poel wrote:
> > When I run python from the command line and generate an error I get the
> > following:
> >
> > Python 3.8.5 (default, Jul 28 2020, 12:59:40)
> > [GCC 9.3.0] on linux
> > Type "help", "copyright", "credits" or "license" for more information.
> >>>> z
> > /home/bob/.local/lib/python3.8/site-packages/requests/__init__.py:89:
> > RequestsDependencyWarning: urllib3 (1.24.3) or chardet (4.0.0) doesn't
> > match a supported version!
> >   warnings.warn("urllib3 ({}) or chardet ({}) doesn't match a supported "
> > Traceback (most recent call last):
> >   File "<stdin>", line 1, in <module>
> > NameError: name 'z' is not defined
> >
> > I understand "z in not defined" ... but what's with the warnings?
>
>
> The implication is that there is a version-mismatch between Python 3.8
> and whichever urllib3 and chardet libraries currently installed.
>
> Recommend updating the system, container, or venv: either Python, pip3
> of the two and/or requests or html-parser [as appropriate to the
> installed libraries - see below], or both/all.
>
>
> System here runs as-expected:
>
> dn $ ... python
> Python 3.9.1 (default, Dec  8 2020, 00:00:00)
> [GCC 10.2.1 20201125 (Red Hat 10.2.1-9)] on linux
> Type "help", "copyright", "credits" or "license" for more information.
> >>> z
> Traceback (most recent call last):
>   File "<stdin>", line 1, in <module>
> NameError: name 'z' is not defined
> >>> import chardet
> >>> import urllib3
> >>> exit()
> dn $ ... pip show chardet urllib3
> Name: chardet
> Version: 3.0.4
> Summary: Universal encoding detector for Python 2 and 3
> Home-page: https://github.com/chardet/chardet
> Author: Mark Pilgrim
> Author-email: mark at diveintomark.org
> License: LGPL
> Location: /usr/lib/python3.9/site-packages
> Requires:
> Required-by: html5-parser, requests
> ---
> Name: urllib3
> Version: 1.25.8
> Summary: HTTP library with thread-safe connection pooling, file post,
> and more.
> Home-page: https://urllib3.readthedocs.io/
> Author: Andrey Petrov
> Author-email: andrey.petrov at shazow.net
> License: MIT
> Location: /usr/lib/python3.9/site-packages
> Requires:
> Required-by: requests
>
>
Found it!

I had the proper urllib3 installed. But, in my .local/lib/ a previous
version was installed. Removing .local/lib/python3.8 has resolved the
problem.

Anyone hazard a guess as to why I had a .local tree (nope, I did not create
it ... I don't think!).


-- 

**** Listen to my FREE CD at http://www.mellowood.ca/music/cedars ****
Bob van der Poel ** Wynndel, British Columbia, CANADA **
EMAIL: bob at mellowood.ca
WWW:   http://www.mellowood.ca

From barry at barrys-emacs.org  Fri Jan  1 11:54:39 2021
From: barry at barrys-emacs.org (Barry Scott)
Date: Fri, 1 Jan 2021 16:54:39 +0000
Subject: Why do I have both /usr/lib/python3 and /usr/lib/python3.8?
In-Reply-To: <CAPTjJmq=_fo3Co2Gh-Ousq4L40FcE5h_4pj2z5_w-3A-S_hfzw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <9ftrbh-97i3.ln1@esprimo.zbmc.eu>
 <0B4092CE-BD13-4BFC-B5C9-35645FE26186@barrys-emacs.org>
 <CAPTjJmq=_fo3Co2Gh-Ousq4L40FcE5h_4pj2z5_w-3A-S_hfzw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <9DF11D45-B03F-40FF-8499-C9DFDA32B21F@barrys-emacs.org>



> On 1 Jan 2021, at 16:42, Chris Angelico <rosuav at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> On Sat, Jan 2, 2021 at 3:36 AM Barry Scott <barry at barrys-emacs.org <mailto:barry at barrys-emacs.org>> wrote:
>> 
>> FYI this is what I have installed (lspy is a personal script):
>> 
>> $ lspy
>> /bin/python: 3.9.1 final 0
>> /bin/python2: 2.7.18 final 0
>> /bin/python2.7: 2.7.18 final 0
>> /bin/python3: 3.9.1 final 0
>> /bin/python3.10: 3.10.0 alpha 3
>> /bin/python3.4: 3.4.10 final 0
>> /bin/python3.5: 3.5.10 final 0
>> /bin/python3.6: 3.6.12 final 0
>> /bin/python3.9: 3.9.1 final 0
>> /bin/python34: 3.4.10 final 0
>> /bin/python35: 3.5.10 final 0
>> /usr/bin/python: 3.9.1 final 0
>> /usr/bin/python2: 2.7.18 final 0
>> /usr/bin/python2.7: 2.7.18 final 0
>> /usr/bin/python3: 3.9.1 final 0
>> /usr/bin/python3.10: 3.10.0 alpha 3
>> /usr/bin/python3.4: 3.4.10 final 0
>> /usr/bin/python3.5: 3.5.10 final 0
>> /usr/bin/python3.6: 3.6.12 final 0
>> /usr/bin/python3.9: 3.9.1 final 0
>> /usr/bin/python34: 3.4.10 final 0
>> /usr/bin/python35: 3.5.10 final 0
>> 
> 
> Pretty similar to mine, except that (a) most of the Pythons are in
> /usr/local/bin rather than /bin or /usr/bin, and (b) with just a
> couple of exceptions, they're all alphas and betas (eg 3.7.0a4+) built
> from git. I keep a single 2.7 around (provided by Debian Stable), and
> a couple of different 3.x versions are Debian-provided, with all the
> rest (from 3.4 to 3.10) hanging around from having been built.

In my case they are all installed from Fedora officially built and maintained RPMs.

Barry


From barry at barrys-emacs.org  Fri Jan  1 11:56:21 2021
From: barry at barrys-emacs.org (Barry Scott)
Date: Fri, 1 Jan 2021 16:56:21 +0000
Subject: Funny error message
In-Reply-To: <CA+HdcZh0W-AxZnfPcoVuOcva8gU5m9v8T9U-jhgbKqbuyyCXzQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CA+HdcZhB3mP9RYjUHDgKOvEuEVQP-3xQA7fNbPrE=J+xeX+Avw@mail.gmail.com>
 <b7f01ecd-cd56-4445-9651-4c690b5b8192@DancesWithMice.info>
 <CA+HdcZh0W-AxZnfPcoVuOcva8gU5m9v8T9U-jhgbKqbuyyCXzQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <9EB9874B-1DB0-425C-A6A9-4224D00C345F@barrys-emacs.org>



> On 1 Jan 2021, at 16:50, Bob van der Poel <bob at mellowood.ca> wrote:
> 
> On Thu, Dec 31, 2020 at 9:25 PM DL Neil via Python-list <
> python-list at python.org <mailto:python-list at python.org>> wrote:
> 
>> On 1/1/21 11:46 AM, Bob van der Poel wrote:
>>> When I run python from the command line and generate an error I get the
>>> following:
>>> 
>>> Python 3.8.5 (default, Jul 28 2020, 12:59:40)
>>> [GCC 9.3.0] on linux
>>> Type "help", "copyright", "credits" or "license" for more information.
>>>>>> z
>>> /home/bob/.local/lib/python3.8/site-packages/requests/__init__.py:89:
>>> RequestsDependencyWarning: urllib3 (1.24.3) or chardet (4.0.0) doesn't
>>> match a supported version!
>>>  warnings.warn("urllib3 ({}) or chardet ({}) doesn't match a supported "
>>> Traceback (most recent call last):
>>>  File "<stdin>", line 1, in <module>
>>> NameError: name 'z' is not defined
>>> 
>>> I understand "z in not defined" ... but what's with the warnings?
>> 
>> 
>> The implication is that there is a version-mismatch between Python 3.8
>> and whichever urllib3 and chardet libraries currently installed.
>> 
>> Recommend updating the system, container, or venv: either Python, pip3
>> of the two and/or requests or html-parser [as appropriate to the
>> installed libraries - see below], or both/all.
>> 
>> 
>> System here runs as-expected:
>> 
>> dn $ ... python
>> Python 3.9.1 (default, Dec  8 2020, 00:00:00)
>> [GCC 10.2.1 20201125 (Red Hat 10.2.1-9)] on linux
>> Type "help", "copyright", "credits" or "license" for more information.
>>>>> z
>> Traceback (most recent call last):
>>  File "<stdin>", line 1, in <module>
>> NameError: name 'z' is not defined
>>>>> import chardet
>>>>> import urllib3
>>>>> exit()
>> dn $ ... pip show chardet urllib3
>> Name: chardet
>> Version: 3.0.4
>> Summary: Universal encoding detector for Python 2 and 3
>> Home-page: https://github.com/chardet/chardet
>> Author: Mark Pilgrim
>> Author-email: mark at diveintomark.org
>> License: LGPL
>> Location: /usr/lib/python3.9/site-packages
>> Requires:
>> Required-by: html5-parser, requests
>> ---
>> Name: urllib3
>> Version: 1.25.8
>> Summary: HTTP library with thread-safe connection pooling, file post,
>> and more.
>> Home-page: https://urllib3.readthedocs.io/
>> Author: Andrey Petrov
>> Author-email: andrey.petrov at shazow.net
>> License: MIT
>> Location: /usr/lib/python3.9/site-packages
>> Requires:
>> Required-by: requests
>> 
>> 
> Found it!
> 
> I had the proper urllib3 installed. But, in my .local/lib/ a previous
> version was installed. Removing .local/lib/python3.8 has resolved the
> problem.
> 
> Anyone hazard a guess as to why I had a .local tree (nope, I did not create
> it ... I don't think!).
> 

That is where "python3.8 -m pip install --user" puts the packages you install.

Barry


> 
> -- 
> 
> **** Listen to my FREE CD at http://www.mellowood.ca/music/cedars <http://www.mellowood.ca/music/cedars> ****
> Bob van der Poel ** Wynndel, British Columbia, CANADA **
> EMAIL: bob at mellowood.ca <mailto:bob at mellowood.ca>
> WWW:   http://www.mellowood.ca <http://www.mellowood.ca/>
> -- 
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list <https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list>

From arj.python at gmail.com  Fri Jan  1 12:01:23 2021
From: arj.python at gmail.com (Abdur-Rahmaan Janhangeer)
Date: Fri, 1 Jan 2021 21:01:23 +0400
Subject: Does windows edit .py file shebangs?
In-Reply-To: <00C1C4B3-01C9-4DE9-AD24-17A0C209D998@barrys-emacs.org>
References: <00C1C4B3-01C9-4DE9-AD24-17A0C209D998@barrys-emacs.org>
Message-ID: <CADrxXX=i_WXm+MKuv8WPr8mGh1=RZDSbs6sdZPP5Zk2QFyJCrA@mail.gmail.com>

Greetings list,

Being a windows user since long, this made
me laugh. Tell me

1/ What version of Python are you running?
2/ What editor/IDE are you using?



Kind Regards,

Abdur-Rahmaan Janhangeer
about <https://compileralchemy.github.io/> | blog
<https://www.pythonkitchen.com>
github <https://github.com/Abdur-RahmaanJ>
Mauritius


On Fri, Jan 1, 2021 at 8:43 PM Barry Scott <barry at barrys-emacs.org> wrote:

> I found python scripts have had their shebang lines edited behind my back.
>
> The shebang line I'm seeing is:
>
>     #!C:\Users\barry\AppData\Local\Microsoft\WindowsApps\python3.EXE
>
> Is this Microsoft being "helpful"?
> Does anyone know what I will have done to best with this "help"?
>
> What do I need to do to prevent this happening?
>
> Barry
>
> --
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
>

From eryksun at gmail.com  Fri Jan  1 12:03:07 2021
From: eryksun at gmail.com (Eryk Sun)
Date: Fri, 1 Jan 2021 11:03:07 -0600
Subject: Does windows edit .py file shebangs?
In-Reply-To: <00C1C4B3-01C9-4DE9-AD24-17A0C209D998@barrys-emacs.org>
References: <00C1C4B3-01C9-4DE9-AD24-17A0C209D998@barrys-emacs.org>
Message-ID: <CACL+1atTHtEmEGPdK7tkJ+aOCku6A-SxcYNprM9RFeQhmdHJBw@mail.gmail.com>

On 1/1/21, Barry Scott <barry at barrys-emacs.org> wrote:
> I found python scripts have had their shebang lines edited behind my back.
>
> The shebang line I'm seeing is:
>
>     #!C:\Users\barry\AppData\Local\Microsoft\WindowsApps\python3.EXE
>
> Is this Microsoft being "helpful"?
> Does anyone know what I will have done to best with this "help"?
>
> What do I need to do to prevent this happening?

Shebang lines may be localized to the current interpreter when
installing a package. Otherwise I don't know what's causing that.

Regarding Windows, the system doesn't support shebang lines in any
way. Python's installer associates .py files with the py.exe launcher,
which looks for a shebang line in a script in order to determine which
executable to run. It supports shebangs with fully-qualified Windows
paths, as well as virtual commands for registered installations, such
as "python", "python3", "python3.9-32", "/usr/bin/python3", and
"/usr/bin/env python".

From bob at mellowood.ca  Fri Jan  1 12:35:49 2021
From: bob at mellowood.ca (Bob van der Poel)
Date: Fri, 1 Jan 2021 10:35:49 -0700
Subject: Funny error message
In-Reply-To: <9EB9874B-1DB0-425C-A6A9-4224D00C345F@barrys-emacs.org>
References: <CA+HdcZhB3mP9RYjUHDgKOvEuEVQP-3xQA7fNbPrE=J+xeX+Avw@mail.gmail.com>
 <b7f01ecd-cd56-4445-9651-4c690b5b8192@DancesWithMice.info>
 <CA+HdcZh0W-AxZnfPcoVuOcva8gU5m9v8T9U-jhgbKqbuyyCXzQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <9EB9874B-1DB0-425C-A6A9-4224D00C345F@barrys-emacs.org>
Message-ID: <CA+HdcZj3_EdzSQKo313GNOe3v3PXcdMYwH1Wp_V4uL0P3dM7xA@mail.gmail.com>

Found it!

>
> I had the proper urllib3 installed. But, in my .local/lib/ a previous
> version was installed. Removing .local/lib/python3.8 has resolved the
> problem.
>
> Anyone hazard a guess as to why I had a .local tree (nope, I did not create
> it ... I don't think!).
>
>
> That is where "python3.8 -m pip install --user" puts the packages you
> install.
>
> Barry
>
>
>
> Okay ... I'll take your word for it. But, I really don't think I've every
run that command :)


-- 

**** Listen to my FREE CD at http://www.mellowood.ca/music/cedars ****
Bob van der Poel ** Wynndel, British Columbia, CANADA **
EMAIL: bob at mellowood.ca
WWW:   http://www.mellowood.ca

From PythonList at danceswithmice.info  Fri Jan  1 14:17:58 2021
From: PythonList at danceswithmice.info (DL Neil)
Date: Sat, 2 Jan 2021 08:17:58 +1300
Subject: Funny error message
In-Reply-To: <CA+HdcZj3_EdzSQKo313GNOe3v3PXcdMYwH1Wp_V4uL0P3dM7xA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CA+HdcZhB3mP9RYjUHDgKOvEuEVQP-3xQA7fNbPrE=J+xeX+Avw@mail.gmail.com>
 <b7f01ecd-cd56-4445-9651-4c690b5b8192@DancesWithMice.info>
 <CA+HdcZh0W-AxZnfPcoVuOcva8gU5m9v8T9U-jhgbKqbuyyCXzQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <9EB9874B-1DB0-425C-A6A9-4224D00C345F@barrys-emacs.org>
 <CA+HdcZj3_EdzSQKo313GNOe3v3PXcdMYwH1Wp_V4uL0P3dM7xA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <98db8b2f-81f7-83c7-8e24-b5619f5912ef@DancesWithMice.info>

On 1/2/21 6:35 AM, Bob van der Poel wrote:
> Found it!

Well done!


>>     I had the proper urllib3 installed. But, in my .local/lib/ a previous
>>     version was installed. Removing .local/lib/python3.8 has resolved the
>>     problem.
>>
>>     Anyone hazard a guess as to why I had a .local tree (nope, I did
>>     not create
>>     it ... I don't think!).
>>
> 
>     That is where "python3.8 -m pip install --user" puts the packages
>     you install.
> 
>     Barry
> 
> 
> 
> Okay ... I'll take your word for it. But, I really don't think I've
> every run that command :)

Assuming Python is maintained only at the system-level (cf --user or
venv) then it may be possible that installing some application that runs
'on' Python added the local-library (as a "dependency"). Alternately,
many beginners following installation instructions on a paint-by-numbers
basis, may type/copy-paste commands without retaining any memory of same.
[observation, not personal criticism]

Python has been designed to offer flexibility. One of which is the
ability to have multiple, co-resident, versions of Python and/or
libraries. Of course, this also produces exactly the type of 'gotcha'
illustrated (detected, and solved) here.

Someone more familiar with Python-packaging may improve/correct...


On a thematically-related, but OT-note:
I decided to install a 'fresh' version of Fedora 33 on this machine,
rather than performing a version-update. (required one hour from
start-to-finish - try that MS-Win users!) The Python-relevance was to
ensure there was no legacy-Python2 left 'lying-around'. However, the
GIMP (popular graphics package) still uses (and has some sort of
'exemption' to use) Python2. Stymied! Not quite - there's a Flatpak
option - which will enable my Python3-only objective by ring-fencing the
GIMP and its dependencies. However... now I have a system package
manager (dnf (~apt)) installing most system-software and 'other stuff'
under a different method (I took the same approach with the Chromium
browser) - how long will it be before such 'cleverness' is
forgotten/trips me up?
-- 
Regards =dn

From bob at mellowood.ca  Fri Jan  1 15:39:00 2021
From: bob at mellowood.ca (Bob van der Poel)
Date: Fri, 1 Jan 2021 13:39:00 -0700
Subject: Funny error message
In-Reply-To: <98db8b2f-81f7-83c7-8e24-b5619f5912ef@DancesWithMice.info>
References: <CA+HdcZhB3mP9RYjUHDgKOvEuEVQP-3xQA7fNbPrE=J+xeX+Avw@mail.gmail.com>
 <b7f01ecd-cd56-4445-9651-4c690b5b8192@DancesWithMice.info>
 <CA+HdcZh0W-AxZnfPcoVuOcva8gU5m9v8T9U-jhgbKqbuyyCXzQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <9EB9874B-1DB0-425C-A6A9-4224D00C345F@barrys-emacs.org>
 <CA+HdcZj3_EdzSQKo313GNOe3v3PXcdMYwH1Wp_V4uL0P3dM7xA@mail.gmail.com>
 <98db8b2f-81f7-83c7-8e24-b5619f5912ef@DancesWithMice.info>
Message-ID: <CA+HdcZgKdndDMpC7kOX9w1inifAqsYEQVBVPRwNJ1Q+G8=Wa4Q@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Jan 1, 2021 at 12:17 PM DL Neil via Python-list <
python-list at python.org> wrote:

> On 1/2/21 6:35 AM, Bob van der Poel wrote:
> > Found it!
>
> Well done!
>
>
> >>     I had the proper urllib3 installed. But, in my .local/lib/ a
> previous
> >>     version was installed. Removing .local/lib/python3.8 has resolved
> the
> >>     problem.
> >>
> >>     Anyone hazard a guess as to why I had a .local tree (nope, I did
> >>     not create
> >>     it ... I don't think!).
> >>
> >
> >     That is where "python3.8 -m pip install --user" puts the packages
> >     you install.
> >
> >     Barry
> >
> >
> >
> > Okay ... I'll take your word for it. But, I really don't think I've
> > every run that command :)
>
> Assuming Python is maintained only at the system-level (cf --user or
> venv) then it may be possible that installing some application that runs
> 'on' Python added the local-library (as a "dependency"). Alternately,
> many beginners following installation instructions on a paint-by-numbers
> basis, may type/copy-paste commands without retaining any memory of same.
> [observation, not personal criticism]
>
> Python has been designed to offer flexibility. One of which is the
> ability to have multiple, co-resident, versions of Python and/or
> libraries. Of course, this also produces exactly the type of 'gotcha'
> illustrated (detected, and solved) here.
>
> Someone more familiar with Python-packaging may improve/correct...
>
>
> On a thematically-related, but OT-note:
> I decided to install a 'fresh' version of Fedora 33 on this machine,
> rather than performing a version-update. (required one hour from
> start-to-finish - try that MS-Win users!) The Python-relevance was to
> ensure there was no legacy-Python2 left 'lying-around'. However, the
> GIMP (popular graphics package) still uses (and has some sort of
> 'exemption' to use) Python2. Stymied! Not quite - there's a Flatpak
> option - which will enable my Python3-only objective by ring-fencing the
> GIMP and its dependencies. However... now I have a system package
> manager (dnf (~apt)) installing most system-software and 'other stuff'
> under a different method (I took the same approach with the Chromium
> browser) - how long will it be before such 'cleverness' is
> forgotten/trips me up?
>

I have installed a few packages using pip. I "try" to do so as root (this
is basically a one user machine) ... but I may have installed as user.
Still, it should not have brought in a complete py set of libraries. I'm
going with the idea that some other package, either via apt or flatpak
(which I really don't trust) decided to be nice. But it was a mess to have
python distros in /usr/lib, /usr/local/lib and ./local ... I am going to
really try in the future to have everything in one spot!

Speaking of "one spot" I also see that some functions do not create the
.pyc versions. Running as a user, the compressed version can't be created
in /usr/lib/. I assume the installer is supposed to do that, but it does
appear that it's not 100%.


-- 

**** Listen to my FREE CD at http://www.mellowood.ca/music/cedars ****
Bob van der Poel ** Wynndel, British Columbia, CANADA **
EMAIL: bob at mellowood.ca
WWW:   http://www.mellowood.ca

From nospam at please.ty  Fri Jan  1 15:41:24 2021
From: nospam at please.ty (jak)
Date: Fri, 1 Jan 2021 21:41:24 +0100
Subject: Control stript which is runing in background.
References: <rslpup$1nek$1@gioia.aioe.org> <X+5wPxxrDjWAkjyQ@cskk.homeip.net>
 <mailman.588.1609461828.7193.python-list@python.org>
 <rsm28r$al0$1@gioia.aioe.org> <X+6Toa3apy918iUD@scrozzle>
 <mailman.589.1609470886.7193.python-list@python.org>
 <rsmsh1$107p$1@gioia.aioe.org> <X+8ofKIZSUZUQa7Q@scrozzle>
 <mailman.595.1609508993.7193.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <rso1di$1urd$1@gioia.aioe.org>

Il 01/01/2021 14:49, 2QdxY4RzWzUUiLuE at potatochowder.com ha scritto:
> On 2021-01-01 at 11:11:47 +0100,
> jak <nospam at please.ty> wrote:
> 
>> Il 01/01/2021 04:14, 2QdxY4RzWzUUiLuE at potatochowder.com ha scritto:
>>> On 2021-01-01 at 03:43:43 +0100,
>>> jak <nospam at please.ty> wrote:
>>>
>>> I think you were clear enough before, but you may not have
>>> considered things the OP did not specify.  One of the hardest parts
>>> of software development is understanding and specifying the actual
>>> problem to be solved.  I've never done that in a second language
>>> (I'm nowhere near fluent in anything other than English); I can only
>>> imagine the extra layers of complexity.
>>
>> This is the OP's initial request:
>>
>>> Hi. I would like to make something like this:
>>> A python script would run headlessly in the background.
>>> I would like to control the script from the command line using other python scripts or from the python shell.
>>>  From time to time I would ask the main script to create a popup window with an image or a plot.
>>> What would be the proper way to approach it. How to make communication between two scripts?
>>> Thank you.
>>> Petro.
>>
>> I have suggested an alternative way for his necessity.
>> It will be up to him to decide which one he should adopt. That way he
>> has a choice, at least.
>> I don't know where you work. I know, however, that in these zones, if
>> you do more than necessary wasting their time, they will kick you away.
> 
> So what is necessary?  Does "control the script" include reporting
> success or failure of a request?  The OP also said "communication
> between two scripts," which to me means two way traffic.  Only the OP
> knows for sure, and at least one of us might get it wrong if we don't
> ask, or at least acknowledge that we don't know.
> 
> If I start with a named pipe because it's good enough for Phase Zero, or
> Version 0.0.1, or Release Experimental Alpha, then I'm going to end up
> ripping that out or reinventing something that already existed on top of
> that named pipe.
> 
> Suppose I look ahead just a little, and use a socket in the first place.
> Yes, you could argue that it's more than what was necessary and kick me
> away.  Will you kick me again when you can build on it (I can't; I'm
> gone) instead of having to rebuild what already worked?
> 
> I'm retired now, but I at one employer, I worked on products with (a)
> lifetimes measured in decades, (b) extremely expensive (money, time,
> convenience, etc.) upgrade/maintenance cycles, and therefore (c) strict
> interoperability requirements.?  A little bit of foresight and extra
> analysis up front went a long way towards saving a lot of headaches and
> development resources (and customers!)  in the long term.
> Communications protocols in particular had to be well thought out, and
> often more complex than was immediately necessary, because backwards and
> forwards compatibility were not negotiable.
> 
> Again, I'm not (and no one else is, either) saying that your solution is
> wrong or won't work.  Your solution may even be the be the best solution
> to the OP's problem.  All I'm saying is that we can't know until the OP
> tells us more.  Yes, the OP has a choice to make.  Maybe we have helped,
> not by making that choice, but by giving it to the OP with enough
> supporting information to make it.
> 
> ? Think about a system containing dozens of individually field
> upgradeable components.  It had to work when a customer upgraded one
> component at a time (over the course of weeks or months), or plugged in
> an old component while they were waiting for a broken one to be
> repaired, or added a brand new component to a system that hadn't been
> changed or upgraded for years.  There was no such thing as telling the
> customer to wait, or to make them take down the entire system to upgrade
> everything at once.  *That* was what was necessary.
> 
Sorry if I made you argumentative. It was not my intention. Let me
reiterate once again that my intention was to offer an alternative to
the OP and that I never claimed my way was better than the other
suggestions. Furthermore, the OP will have already made its choice by
now. Just one last comment: I understand your point of view but I
disagree because the difficulty in providing assistance as the customer
wishes depends on how you have designed the product and not on how you
develop the pieces that compose it. One more thing: you probably don't
care anymore, but people have taught me that if you give a customer
something, you can't sell it to him anymore.

Sorry again.

From garabik-news-2005-05 at kassiopeia.juls.savba.sk  Fri Jan  1 15:48:44 2021
From: garabik-news-2005-05 at kassiopeia.juls.savba.sk (garabik-news-2005-05 at kassiopeia.juls.savba.sk)
Date: Fri, 1 Jan 2021 20:48:44 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: ANN: unicode 2.8
References: <rsknkm$oke$1__36657.8751521715$1609426306$gmane$org@gioia.aioe.org>
 <rsla1j$t9t$1@ciao.gmane.io>
 <mailman.584.1609445807.7193.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <rso1rc$5bm$1@gioia.aioe.org>

Terry Reedy <tjreedy at udel.edu> wrote:
> On 12/31/2020 9:36 AM, garabik-news-2005-05 at kassiopeia.juls.savba.sk wrote:
>> unicode is a simple python command line utility that displays
>> properties for a given unicode character, or searches
>> unicode database for a given name.
> ...
>> Changes since previous versions:
>> 
>>   * display ASCII table (either traditional with --ascii or the new
>>     EU?UK Trade and Cooperation Agreement version with --brexit-ascii)
> 
> Are you reproducing it with bugs included?
> How is that of any use to anyone?

Including the (correct) ASCII table has been a long term, low priority -
I am using ascii(1) utility reasonably often and it makes sense to
reproduce this functionality.

And when implementing this, it was a no-brainer to include also the
brexit varian (verbatim). After all, given the blood and sweat and tears
shed during the negotiations, I am sure each and every line of the
Agreement has been combed and (re)negotiated over and over by experienced
negotiators and verified an army of experts in the fields <sarcasm off/>

-- 
 -----------------------------------------------------------
| Radovan Garab?k http://kassiopeia.juls.savba.sk/~garabik/ |
| __..--^^^--..__    garabik @ kassiopeia.juls.savba.sk     |
 -----------------------------------------------------------
Antivirus alert: file .signature infected by signature virus.
Hi! I'm a signature virus! Copy me into your signature file to help me spread!

From cs at cskk.id.au  Fri Jan  1 16:13:24 2021
From: cs at cskk.id.au (Cameron Simpson)
Date: Sat, 2 Jan 2021 08:13:24 +1100
Subject: Control stript which is runing in background.
In-Reply-To: <rsm28r$al0$1@gioia.aioe.org>
References: <rsm28r$al0$1@gioia.aioe.org>
Message-ID: <X++QdE5yM8qkVycf@cskk.homeip.net>

On 01Jan2021 03:43, jak <nospam at please.ty> wrote:
>Maybe the fact that I'm not English and I don't know the language well
>doesn't allow me to express myself clearly. Try it one more time:
>The OP would like to give some command to a script that is running. How?
>With a script that sends commands to it. One of the ways, as mentioned,
>is by using a mini socket server. Given the needs of the OP and the fact
>that sockets are a limited resource in a system, I took the liberty of
>proposing a simple alternative: using a named pipe, also because, IMO,
>sockets, in this case, are an overkill. with a few lines of code in a
>thread in the running script they can allow it to receive commands:

You're right. For receive only of small things this is pretty simple.  
Not to mention much easier on the command sender:

    echo "my command" >the-named-pipe

I'm sorry for conflating the concurrency and return-a-response needs of 
a full blown client/server app with the much simpler request of the OP: 
to control a daemon simply. I've even done exactly what you suggested 
myself.

I think it's pretty clear that you're aware of the difference in 
behaviours and semantics between UNIX named pipes (unidirection shared 
single channel) with sockets (bidirection distinct multichannels).

Cheers,
Cameron Simpson <cs at cskk.id.au>

From PythonList at danceswithmice.info  Fri Jan  1 16:38:01 2021
From: PythonList at danceswithmice.info (DL Neil)
Date: Sat, 2 Jan 2021 10:38:01 +1300
Subject: Funny error message
In-Reply-To: <CA+HdcZgKdndDMpC7kOX9w1inifAqsYEQVBVPRwNJ1Q+G8=Wa4Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CA+HdcZhB3mP9RYjUHDgKOvEuEVQP-3xQA7fNbPrE=J+xeX+Avw@mail.gmail.com>
 <b7f01ecd-cd56-4445-9651-4c690b5b8192@DancesWithMice.info>
 <CA+HdcZh0W-AxZnfPcoVuOcva8gU5m9v8T9U-jhgbKqbuyyCXzQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <9EB9874B-1DB0-425C-A6A9-4224D00C345F@barrys-emacs.org>
 <CA+HdcZj3_EdzSQKo313GNOe3v3PXcdMYwH1Wp_V4uL0P3dM7xA@mail.gmail.com>
 <98db8b2f-81f7-83c7-8e24-b5619f5912ef@DancesWithMice.info>
 <CA+HdcZgKdndDMpC7kOX9w1inifAqsYEQVBVPRwNJ1Q+G8=Wa4Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <2ce4765f-bcab-05a9-055b-82507e2aa103@DancesWithMice.info>

On 1/2/21 9:39 AM, Bob van der Poel wrote:
> 
> 
> On Fri, Jan 1, 2021 at 12:17 PM DL Neil via Python-list
> <python-list at python.org <mailto:python-list at python.org>> wrote:
> 
>     On 1/2/21 6:35 AM, Bob van der Poel wrote:
>     > Found it!
> 
>     Well done!
> 
> 
>     >>? ? ?I had the proper urllib3 installed. But, in my .local/lib/ a
>     previous
>     >>? ? ?version was installed. Removing .local/lib/python3.8 has
>     resolved the
>     >>? ? ?problem.
>     >>
>     >>? ? ?Anyone hazard a guess as to why I had a .local tree (nope, I did
>     >>? ? ?not create
>     >>? ? ?it ... I don't think!).
>     >>
>     >
>     >? ? ?That is where "python3.8 -m pip install --user" puts the packages
>     >? ? ?you install.
>     >
>     >? ? ?Barry
>     >
>     >
>     >
>     > Okay ... I'll take your word for it. But, I really don't think I've
>     > every run that command :)
> 
>     Assuming Python is maintained only at the system-level (cf --user or
>     venv) then it may be possible that installing some application that runs
>     'on' Python added the local-library (as a "dependency"). Alternately,
>     many beginners following installation instructions on a paint-by-numbers
>     basis, may type/copy-paste commands without retaining any memory of
>     same.
>     [observation, not personal criticism]
> 
>     Python has been designed to offer flexibility. One of which is the
>     ability to have multiple, co-resident, versions of Python and/or
>     libraries. Of course, this also produces exactly the type of 'gotcha'
>     illustrated (detected, and solved) here.
> 
>     Someone more familiar with Python-packaging may improve/correct...
> 
> 
>     On a thematically-related, but OT-note:
>     I decided to install a 'fresh' version of Fedora 33 on this machine,
>     rather than performing a version-update. (required one hour from
>     start-to-finish - try that MS-Win users!) The Python-relevance was to
>     ensure there was no legacy-Python2 left 'lying-around'. However, the
>     GIMP (popular graphics package) still uses (and has some sort of
>     'exemption' to use) Python2. Stymied! Not quite - there's a Flatpak
>     option - which will enable my Python3-only objective by ring-fencing the
>     GIMP and its dependencies. However... now I have a system package
>     manager (dnf (~apt)) installing most system-software and 'other stuff'
>     under a different method (I took the same approach with the Chromium
>     browser) - how long will it be before such 'cleverness' is
>     forgotten/trips me up?
> 
> 
> I have installed a few packages using pip. I "try" to do so as root
> (this is basically a one user machine) ... but I may have installed as
> user. Still, it should not have brought in a complete py set of
> libraries. I'm going with the idea that some other package, either via
> apt or flatpak (which I really don't trust) decided to be nice. But it
> was a mess to have python distros in /usr/lib, /usr/local/lib and
> ./local ... I am going to really try in the future to have everything in
> one spot!

I'm not sure if you mean that you intend moving files from the directory
where they were loaded to somewhere else - I would hesitate!


As before, there is a tradeoff between 'tidiness' and 'flexibility'.
Perhaps do some reading to ensure a grasp of Python's library/directory
structures and system/virtual environments, first?

Suggestions:
sys.path https://docs.python.org/3/using/cmdline.html
2.3. Python-related paths and files
https://docs.python.org/3/using/unix.html#python-related-paths-and-files
PEP 370 -- Per user site-packages directory
https://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0370/
and to really dive 'under the covers'
https://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0587/
- with plenty more, both on-site and externally.

It quickly becomes apparent that there are risks in assuming that what
'should be done' for one project/application will 'always' be OK. Sadly,
such may have an (undesirable) impact on another/others. Thus, the
virtue of project-dedicated venvs (alternately OpSys-level containers)!


> Speaking of "one spot" I also see that some functions do not create the
> .pyc versions. Running as a user, the compressed version can't be
> created in /usr/lib/. I assume the installer is supposed to do that, but
> it does appear that it's not 100%.

There are multiple reasons for this, but the first time that code is
run, a .pyc will (presumably) be created - and we're back to
considerations of Python environments, Python cf C, perhaps even
differences between OpSys - certainly and once-again, 'here be dragons'...
-- 
Regards =dn

From bob at mellowood.ca  Fri Jan  1 17:06:51 2021
From: bob at mellowood.ca (Bob van der Poel)
Date: Fri, 1 Jan 2021 15:06:51 -0700
Subject: Funny error message
In-Reply-To: <2ce4765f-bcab-05a9-055b-82507e2aa103@DancesWithMice.info>
References: <CA+HdcZhB3mP9RYjUHDgKOvEuEVQP-3xQA7fNbPrE=J+xeX+Avw@mail.gmail.com>
 <b7f01ecd-cd56-4445-9651-4c690b5b8192@DancesWithMice.info>
 <CA+HdcZh0W-AxZnfPcoVuOcva8gU5m9v8T9U-jhgbKqbuyyCXzQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <9EB9874B-1DB0-425C-A6A9-4224D00C345F@barrys-emacs.org>
 <CA+HdcZj3_EdzSQKo313GNOe3v3PXcdMYwH1Wp_V4uL0P3dM7xA@mail.gmail.com>
 <98db8b2f-81f7-83c7-8e24-b5619f5912ef@DancesWithMice.info>
 <CA+HdcZgKdndDMpC7kOX9w1inifAqsYEQVBVPRwNJ1Q+G8=Wa4Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <2ce4765f-bcab-05a9-055b-82507e2aa103@DancesWithMice.info>
Message-ID: <CA+HdcZiUgpP15Ot-=YVRjO9ePHAAFG8NM4kaOsVHbzw1xg0mAw@mail.gmail.com>

>     Assuming Python is maintained only at the system-level (cf --user or
> >     venv) then it may be possible that installing some application that
> runs
> >     'on' Python added the local-library (as a "dependency"). Alternately,
> >     many beginners following installation instructions on a
> paint-by-numbers
> >     basis, may type/copy-paste commands without retaining any memory of
> >     same.
> >     [observation, not personal criticism]
> >
> >     Python has been designed to offer flexibility. One of which is the
> >     ability to have multiple, co-resident, versions of Python and/or
> >     libraries. Of course, this also produces exactly the type of 'gotcha'
> >     illustrated (detected, and solved) here.
> >
> >     Someone more familiar with Python-packaging may improve/correct...
> >
> >
> >     On a thematically-related, but OT-note:
> >     I decided to install a 'fresh' version of Fedora 33 on this machine,
> >     rather than performing a version-update. (required one hour from
> >     start-to-finish - try that MS-Win users!) The Python-relevance was to
> >     ensure there was no legacy-Python2 left 'lying-around'. However, the
> >     GIMP (popular graphics package) still uses (and has some sort of
> >     'exemption' to use) Python2. Stymied! Not quite - there's a Flatpak
> >     option - which will enable my Python3-only objective by ring-fencing
> the
> >     GIMP and its dependencies. However... now I have a system package
> >     manager (dnf (~apt)) installing most system-software and 'other
> stuff'
> >     under a different method (I took the same approach with the Chromium
> >     browser) - how long will it be before such 'cleverness' is
> >     forgotten/trips me up?
> >
> >
> > I have installed a few packages using pip. I "try" to do so as root
> > (this is basically a one user machine) ... but I may have installed as
> > user. Still, it should not have brought in a complete py set of
> > libraries. I'm going with the idea that some other package, either via
> > apt or flatpak (which I really don't trust) decided to be nice. But it
> > was a mess to have python distros in /usr/lib, /usr/local/lib and
> > ./local ... I am going to really try in the future to have everything in
> > one spot!
>
> I'm not sure if you mean that you intend moving files from the directory
> where they were loaded to somewhere else - I would hesitate!
>
>
> As before, there is a tradeoff between 'tidiness' and 'flexibility'.
> Perhaps do some reading to ensure a grasp of Python's library/directory
> structures and system/virtual environments, first?
>
> What me? Read? Actually a good suggestion ... I'll make note of the
recommended reading list. Thanks.


> Suggestions:
> sys.path https://docs.python.org/3/using/cmdline.html
> 2.3. Python-related paths and files
> https://docs.python.org/3/using/unix.html#python-related-paths-and-files
> PEP 370 -- Per user site-packages directory
> https://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0370/
> and to really dive 'under the covers'
> https://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0587/
> - with plenty more, both on-site and externally.
>
> It quickly becomes apparent that there are risks in assuming that what
> 'should be done' for one project/application will 'always' be OK. Sadly,
> such may have an (undesirable) impact on another/others. Thus, the
> virtue of project-dedicated venvs (alternately OpSys-level containers)!
>
>
> > Speaking of "one spot" I also see that some functions do not create the
> > .pyc versions. Running as a user, the compressed version can't be
> > created in /usr/lib/. I assume the installer is supposed to do that, but
> > it does appear that it's not 100%.
>
> There are multiple reasons for this, but the first time that code is
> run, a .pyc will (presumably) be created - and we're back to
> considerations of Python environments, Python cf C, perhaps even
>
>
Oh no! Not these damned dragons again :)

But, seriously. No, I have no idea of moving installed stuff around between
/usr /.local and /usr/local. There lies no dragons but madness :) I meant
that I will pay more attention as to what the installer(s) are doing.

Thanks for the input.


-- 

**** Listen to my FREE CD at http://www.mellowood.ca/music/cedars ****
Bob van der Poel ** Wynndel, British Columbia, CANADA **
EMAIL: bob at mellowood.ca
WWW:   http://www.mellowood.ca

From Bischoop at vimart.net  Fri Jan  1 17:58:54 2021
From: Bischoop at vimart.net (Bischoop)
Date: Fri, 1 Jan 2021 22:58:54 -0000 (UTC)
Subject: A random word from one of two lists
Message-ID: <slrnruva9e.9n5.Bischoop@vimart.net>

I have two lists *animal* and *fruit* and I try to get a random variable
animal or fruit and then random word from that list.
I thought that dictionary(*words*) could help me but no succes, the only way I've
done partially what was with list *kinds* and by using two times
random.choice. However print(kind) return me a list not a variable:
animal or fruit so now I'm kinda confuse if I can achieve that.



import random
animal = ['koala', 'kangaroo']
fruit = ['banana', 'apple']
kinds = [animal,fruit]
words = {'animals': animal, 'fruits': fruit}


kind = random.choice(kinds)
print(kind)
word = random.choice(kind)
print(word)
#output:
['kolala', 'kangaroo']
kangaroo

--
Thanks

From 2QdxY4RzWzUUiLuE at potatochowder.com  Fri Jan  1 18:07:05 2021
From: 2QdxY4RzWzUUiLuE at potatochowder.com (2QdxY4RzWzUUiLuE at potatochowder.com)
Date: Fri, 1 Jan 2021 17:07:05 -0600
Subject: Control stript which is runing in background.
In-Reply-To: <rso1di$1urd$1@gioia.aioe.org>
References: <rslpup$1nek$1@gioia.aioe.org> <X+5wPxxrDjWAkjyQ@cskk.homeip.net>
 <mailman.588.1609461828.7193.python-list@python.org>
 <rsm28r$al0$1@gioia.aioe.org> <X+6Toa3apy918iUD@scrozzle>
 <mailman.589.1609470886.7193.python-list@python.org>
 <rsmsh1$107p$1@gioia.aioe.org> <X+8ofKIZSUZUQa7Q@scrozzle>
 <mailman.595.1609508993.7193.python-list@python.org>
 <rso1di$1urd$1@gioia.aioe.org>
Message-ID: <X++rGWBY33BEsMX7@scrozzle>

On 2021-01-01 at 21:41:24 +0100,
jak <nospam at please.ty> wrote:

> Sorry if I made you argumentative ...

And I didn't mean to be argumentative.  :-)

We both offered alternatives, and we both argued for them (in the sense
of claiming that our own ideas were good).  Each solution is better,
depending on certain details of the OP's requirements.

> ... Furthermore, the OP will have already made its choice by now ...

We don't know that.

> ... Just one last comment: I understand your point of view but I
> disagree because the difficulty in providing assistance as the
> customer wishes depends on how you have designed the product and not
> on how you develop the pieces that compose it ...

I agree:  most companies have no more customer service.  :-)

Our business was emergency communications equipment; if we didn't
provide such assistance, or the equipment didn't do certain things,
there was a distinct possibility that someome could die.

When a police officer presses the button, he or she has to talk to the
dispatcher in 250ms or less.  Same for an emergency medical technician
in an ambulance.  A 60-second TCP timeout or an HTTP 503 error is not
okay.  You can't tell people in a burning building to wait until the
dispatch center has finished their upgrades, and you can't take the
whole fire department off line to upgrade the radios in all the trucks
at once.  It's not a matter of what's easiest to develop, or the easiest
to support.

I think I'm coming off gruffly again, but I don't mean to.

> ... One more thing: you probably don't care anymore, but people have
> taught me that if you give a customer something, you can't sell it to
> him anymore.

Please don't tell me what I do or don't care about.  :-)

I agree:  once you give something away for free, it's very difficult to
charge money for it later.  Believe me, we didn't give our
communications equipment (or the subsequent software upgrades, unless
there was a serious bug) away for free.  :-)

From Richard at Damon-Family.org  Fri Jan  1 18:12:57 2021
From: Richard at Damon-Family.org (Richard Damon)
Date: Fri, 1 Jan 2021 18:12:57 -0500
Subject: A random word from one of two lists
In-Reply-To: <slrnruva9e.9n5.Bischoop@vimart.net>
References: <slrnruva9e.9n5.Bischoop@vimart.net>
Message-ID: <af315ca2-195a-b73b-e2a3-9b047344f751@Damon-Family.org>

On 1/1/21 5:58 PM, Bischoop wrote:
> I have two lists *animal* and *fruit* and I try to get a random variable
> animal or fruit and then random word from that list.
> I thought that dictionary(*words*) could help me but no succes, the only way I've
> done partially what was with list *kinds* and by using two times
> random.choice. However print(kind) return me a list not a variable:
> animal or fruit so now I'm kinda confuse if I can achieve that.
>
>
>
> import random
> animal = ['koala', 'kangaroo']
> fruit = ['banana', 'apple']
> kinds = [animal,fruit]
> words = {'animals': animal, 'fruits': fruit}
>
>
> kind = random.choice(kinds)
> print(kind)
> word = random.choice(kind)
> print(word)
> #output:
> ['kolala', 'kangaroo']
> kangaroo
>
> --
> Thanks

random.choice doesn't return 'a variable' but an object. Which is the
same object that one of the variables that you used.

IF you wanted to use words, then you could have made kinds = {'animals',
'fruits'} and then looked up the list in words, but that is really just
more work (unless you want to know which list it came from)

Note that 'animals' isn't a variable, but a string value.

-- 
Richard Damon


From cs at cskk.id.au  Fri Jan  1 18:18:20 2021
From: cs at cskk.id.au (Cameron Simpson)
Date: Sat, 2 Jan 2021 10:18:20 +1100
Subject: A random word from one of two lists
In-Reply-To: <slrnruva9e.9n5.Bischoop@vimart.net>
References: <slrnruva9e.9n5.Bischoop@vimart.net>
Message-ID: <X++tvJh6NCk4PmLJ@cskk.homeip.net>

On 01Jan2021 22:58, Bischoop <Bischoop at vimart.net> wrote:
>I have two lists *animal* and *fruit* and I try to get a random variable
>animal or fruit and then random word from that list.
>I thought that dictionary(*words*) could help me but no succes, the only way I've
>done partially what was with list *kinds* and by using two times
>random.choice. However print(kind) return me a list not a variable:
>animal or fruit so now I'm kinda confuse if I can achieve that.
>
>import random
>animal = ['koala', 'kangaroo']
>fruit = ['banana', 'apple']

This is fine.

>kinds = [animal,fruit]

This probably isn't what you intend. Print out kinds:

    print(repr(kinds))

>words = {'animals': animal, 'fruits': fruit}

I suspect you want, after this line:

    kinds = list(words.keys())

which gets you a list of the dictionary keys. Print that, too, to see 
the difference.

>kind = random.choice(kinds)
>print(kind)

When the earlier stuff works, this should be a string.

>word = random.choice(kind)

This picks a random character from the string. Probably not what you 
want. You want to pick from the list of animals or fruits. Since you 
(will) have the word "animals" or "fruits" in "kind", how do you 
reference the appropriate list?

Cheers,
Cameron Simpson <cs at cskk.id.au>

From Marco.Sulla.Python at gmail.com  Fri Jan  1 18:18:06 2021
From: Marco.Sulla.Python at gmail.com (Marco Sulla)
Date: Sat, 2 Jan 2021 00:18:06 +0100
Subject: A random word from one of two lists
In-Reply-To: <slrnruva9e.9n5.Bischoop@vimart.net>
References: <slrnruva9e.9n5.Bischoop@vimart.net>
Message-ID: <CABbU2U8Djx3ih4V7i+Qnqa-ynzFe9XwjFmjxkV4hG_JPgk0AfQ@mail.gmail.com>

Try this:

>>> animal = ['koala', 'kangaroo']
>>> fruit = ['banana', 'apple']
>>> words = {'animals': animal, 'fruits': fruit}
>>> kinds = tuple(words.keys())
>>> kind = random.choice(kinds)
>>> kind
'animals'
>>> word = random.choice(words[kind])
>>> word
'koala'

From alan at csail.mit.edu  Fri Jan  1 19:07:22 2021
From: alan at csail.mit.edu (Alan Bawden)
Date: Fri, 01 Jan 2021 19:07:22 -0500
Subject: Control stript which is runing in background.
References: <rslpup$1nek$1@gioia.aioe.org> <X+5wPxxrDjWAkjyQ@cskk.homeip.net>
 <mailman.588.1609461828.7193.python-list@python.org>
 <rsm28r$al0$1@gioia.aioe.org> <86a6ttjkmd.fsf@williamsburg.bawden.org>
 <rsmrom$m9e$1@gioia.aioe.org>
Message-ID: <865z4gjj5x.fsf@williamsburg.bawden.org>

jak <nospam at please.ty> writes:

   Il 01/01/2021 06:23, Alan Bawden ha scritto:
   > jak <nospam at please.ty> writes:
   >
   >     Running the command:
   >
   >     $ cat bible.txt > cmdpipe & cat bible.txt > cmdpipe & cat bible.txt > cmdpipe
   >
   >     the three texts do not mix....
   >
   > The three texts do not mix as long at the contents of bible.txt is short
   > enough (and provided `cat' only calls `write' once).  In the POSIX
   > specification, the manual page for the `write' system call describes
   > writing to a pipe or FIFO as follows:
   >
   >    Write requests of {PIPE_BUF} bytes or less shall not be interleaved
   >    with data from other processes doing writes on the same pipe.  Writes
   >    of greater than {PIPE_BUF} bytes may have data interleaved, on
   >    arbitrary boundaries, with writes by other processes, whether or not
   >    the O_NONBLOCK flag of the file status flags is set.
   >
   Ok. And...
        ...Running the command:

        $ cat bible.txt > cmdpipe & cat bible.txt > cmdpipe & cat bible.txt > cmdpipe

        the three texts do not mix....

Saying it again doesn't make it any more true.  If bible.txt is large
enough, they most definitely DO mix!  Just to make sure I wasn't missing
something, I tested your exact command before I sent my previous reply.
They mixed.

-- 
Alan Bawden

From Bischoop at vimart.net  Fri Jan  1 20:25:32 2021
From: Bischoop at vimart.net (Bischoop)
Date: Sat, 2 Jan 2021 01:25:32 -0000 (UTC)
Subject: A random word from one of two lists
References: <slrnruva9e.9n5.Bischoop@vimart.net>
 <X++tvJh6NCk4PmLJ@cskk.homeip.net>
 <mailman.614.1609543110.7193.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <slrnruvisc.9n5.Bischoop@vimart.net>

On 2021-01-01, Cameron Simpson <cs at cskk.id.au> wrote:
>
>     kinds = list(words.keys())
>

Yes, solved it with that exeactly.

--
thanks

From Bischoop at vimart.net  Fri Jan  1 20:28:11 2021
From: Bischoop at vimart.net (Bischoop)
Date: Sat, 2 Jan 2021 01:28:11 -0000 (UTC)
Subject: A random word from one of two lists
References: <slrnruva9e.9n5.Bischoop@vimart.net>
 <5fefbb0d$0$3250$426a34cc@news.free.fr>
Message-ID: <slrnruvj1b.9n5.Bischoop@vimart.net>

On 2021-01-02, Python <python at python.invalid> wrote:
>
> >>> from random import choice
> >>> choice(words[choice(list(words.keys()))])
> 'apple'
> >>> choice(words[choice(list(words.keys()))])
> 'kangaroo'
> >>> choice(words[choice(list(words.keys()))])
> 'koala'
> >>> choice(words[choice(list(words.keys()))])
> 'apple'
> >>> choice(words[choice(list(words.keys()))])
> 'kangaroo'
>
> or this?
>
> >>> randstuff = lambda: choice(words[choice(list(words.keys()))])
> >>> randstuff()
> 'kangaroo'
> >>> randstuff()
> 'kangaroo'
> >>> randstuff()
> 'apple'
> >>> randstuff()
> 'kangaroo'
> >>> randstuff()
> 'koala'
> >>> randstuff()
> 'banana'

that lambada method is good.


--
Thanks

From nospam at please.ty  Sat Jan  2 02:55:14 2021
From: nospam at please.ty (jak)
Date: Sat, 2 Jan 2021 08:55:14 +0100
Subject: Control stript which is runing in background.
References: <rslpup$1nek$1@gioia.aioe.org> <X+5wPxxrDjWAkjyQ@cskk.homeip.net>
 <mailman.588.1609461828.7193.python-list@python.org>
 <rsm28r$al0$1@gioia.aioe.org> <86a6ttjkmd.fsf@williamsburg.bawden.org>
 <rsmrom$m9e$1@gioia.aioe.org> <865z4gjj5x.fsf@williamsburg.bawden.org>
Message-ID: <rsp8t1$g0q$1@gioia.aioe.org>

Il 02/01/2021 01:07, Alan Bawden ha scritto:
> jak <nospam at please.ty> writes:
> 
>     Il 01/01/2021 06:23, Alan Bawden ha scritto:
>     > jak <nospam at please.ty> writes:
>     >
>     >     Running the command:
>     >
>     >     $ cat bible.txt > cmdpipe & cat bible.txt > cmdpipe & cat bible.txt > cmdpipe
>     >
>     >     the three texts do not mix....
>     >
>     > The three texts do not mix as long at the contents of bible.txt is short
>     > enough (and provided `cat' only calls `write' once).  In the POSIX
>     > specification, the manual page for the `write' system call describes
>     > writing to a pipe or FIFO as follows:
>     >
>     >    Write requests of {PIPE_BUF} bytes or less shall not be interleaved
>     >    with data from other processes doing writes on the same pipe.  Writes
>     >    of greater than {PIPE_BUF} bytes may have data interleaved, on
>     >    arbitrary boundaries, with writes by other processes, whether or not
>     >    the O_NONBLOCK flag of the file status flags is set.
>     >
>     Ok. And...
>          ...Running the command:
> 
>          $ cat bible.txt > cmdpipe & cat bible.txt > cmdpipe & cat bible.txt > cmdpipe
> 
>          the three texts do not mix....
> 
> Saying it again doesn't make it any more true.  If bible.txt is large
> enough, they most definitely DO mix!  Just to make sure I wasn't missing
> something, I tested your exact command before I sent my previous reply.
> They mixed.
> 

This is really strange. On which system did you test? unix, linux or a
surrogate (cygwin, msys)? I asked this because bible.txt is 4.25MB size
(https://github.com/mxw/grmr/blob/master/src/finaltests/bible.txt)...
and the OP needs to send only commands (I hope smaller than the bible).

From nospam at please.ty  Sat Jan  2 06:06:42 2021
From: nospam at please.ty (jak)
Date: Sat, 2 Jan 2021 12:06:42 +0100
Subject: Control stript which is runing in background.
References: <rslpup$1nek$1@gioia.aioe.org> <X+5wPxxrDjWAkjyQ@cskk.homeip.net>
 <mailman.588.1609461828.7193.python-list@python.org>
 <rsm28r$al0$1@gioia.aioe.org> <86a6ttjkmd.fsf@williamsburg.bawden.org>
 <rsmrom$m9e$1@gioia.aioe.org> <865z4gjj5x.fsf@williamsburg.bawden.org>
Message-ID: <rspk40$sa2$1@gioia.aioe.org>

Il 02/01/2021 01:07, Alan Bawden ha scritto:
> jak <nospam at please.ty> writes:
> 
>     Il 01/01/2021 06:23, Alan Bawden ha scritto:
>     > jak <nospam at please.ty> writes:
>     >
>     >     Running the command:
>     >
>     >     $ cat bible.txt > cmdpipe & cat bible.txt > cmdpipe & cat bible.txt > cmdpipe
>     >
>     >     the three texts do not mix....
>     >
>     > The three texts do not mix as long at the contents of bible.txt is short
>     > enough (and provided `cat' only calls `write' once).  In the POSIX
>     > specification, the manual page for the `write' system call describes
>     > writing to a pipe or FIFO as follows:
>     >
>     >    Write requests of {PIPE_BUF} bytes or less shall not be interleaved
>     >    with data from other processes doing writes on the same pipe.  Writes
>     >    of greater than {PIPE_BUF} bytes may have data interleaved, on
>     >    arbitrary boundaries, with writes by other processes, whether or not
>     >    the O_NONBLOCK flag of the file status flags is set.
>     >
>     Ok. And...
>          ...Running the command:
> 
>          $ cat bible.txt > cmdpipe & cat bible.txt > cmdpipe & cat bible.txt > cmdpipe
> 
>          the three texts do not mix....
> 
> Saying it again doesn't make it any more true.  If bible.txt is large
> enough, they most definitely DO mix!  Just to make sure I wasn't missing
> something, I tested your exact command before I sent my previous reply.
> They mixed.
> 
You're right it's mixed. I tried this:
terminal 1:

$ python3 pmkfifo.py > output.txt

terminal 2:

cat bible.txt > mypipe & cat bible.txt > mypipe & cat bible.txt > mypipe

result:

-rw-rw-r-- 1 jak jak  4351187 gen  1 02:56 bible.txt
prw-rw-r-- 1 jak jak        0 gen  2 11:40 mypipe
-rw-rw-r-- 1 jak jak 13053561 gen  2 11:40 output.txt
-rw-rw-r-- 1 jak jak      237 gen  1 02:46 pmkfifo.py

then I split ouput.txt:

$ split -n 3 -d output.txt result

result:

-rw-rw-r-- 1 jak jak  4351187 gen  1 02:56 bible.txt
prw-rw-r-- 1 jak jak        0 gen  2 11:40 mypipe
-rw-rw-r-- 1 jak jak 13053561 gen  2 11:40 output.txt
-rw-rw-r-- 1 jak jak      237 gen  1 02:46 pmkfifo.py
-rw-rw-r-- 1 jak jak  4351187 gen  2 11:41 result00
-rw-rw-r-- 1 jak jak  4351187 gen  2 11:41 result01
-rw-rw-r-- 1 jak jak  4351187 gen  2 11:41 result02

but:

$ cmp result00 result01
result00 result01 differ: byte 1, line 1

$ cmp result01 result02
result01 result02 differ: byte 1, line 1

...but not happy I wanted to try sure that each process used a single 
write and I wrote this program in C:

int main()
{
     FILE *fp;
     long len, readed;
     char *buffer;

     if((fp = fopen("bible.txt", "rt")) == NULL)
         return -1;
     // get file size
     if(!fseek(fp, 0, SEEK_END))
     {
         len = ftell(fp);
     }
     else
         return -1;
     // build buffer
    if((buffer = malloc(len)) == NULL)
         return -1;
     // reset position
     if(fseek(fp, 0, SEEK_SET))
         return -1;
     if((readed = fread(buffer, len, 1, fp)) != 1)
         return -1;
     if((fwrite(buffer, len, 1, stdout)) < 1)
	return -1;
     fflush(stdout);
     free(buffer);
     fclose(fp);
     return 0;
}

... and runned:

$ ./mycat > mypipe & ./mycat > mypipe & ./mycat > mypipe

I, however, got the same result.

From alan at csail.mit.edu  Sat Jan  2 06:30:56 2021
From: alan at csail.mit.edu (Alan Bawden)
Date: Sat, 02 Jan 2021 06:30:56 -0500
Subject: Control stript which is runing in background.
References: <rslpup$1nek$1@gioia.aioe.org> <X+5wPxxrDjWAkjyQ@cskk.homeip.net>
 <mailman.588.1609461828.7193.python-list@python.org>
 <rsm28r$al0$1@gioia.aioe.org> <86a6ttjkmd.fsf@williamsburg.bawden.org>
 <rsmrom$m9e$1@gioia.aioe.org> <865z4gjj5x.fsf@williamsburg.bawden.org>
 <rsp8t1$g0q$1@gioia.aioe.org>
Message-ID: <861rf3k233.fsf@williamsburg.bawden.org>

jak <nospam at please.ty> writes:

   Il 02/01/2021 01:07, Alan Bawden ha scritto:
   > jak <nospam at please.ty> writes:
   >
   >     Il 01/01/2021 06:23, Alan Bawden ha scritto:
   >     > jak <nospam at please.ty> writes:
   >     >
   >     >     Running the command:
   >     >
   >     >     $ cat bible.txt > cmdpipe & cat bible.txt > cmdpipe & cat bible.txt > cmdpipe
   >     >
   >     >     the three texts do not mix....
   >     >
   >     > The three texts do not mix as long at the contents of bible.txt is short
   >     > enough (and provided `cat' only calls `write' once).  In the POSIX
   >     > specification, the manual page for the `write' system call describes
   >     > writing to a pipe or FIFO as follows:
   >     >
   >     >    Write requests of {PIPE_BUF} bytes or less shall not be interleaved
   >     >    with data from other processes doing writes on the same pipe.  Writes
   >     >    of greater than {PIPE_BUF} bytes may have data interleaved, on
   >     >    arbitrary boundaries, with writes by other processes, whether or not
   >     >    the O_NONBLOCK flag of the file status flags is set.
   >     >
   > ...  Just to make sure I wasn't missing
   > something, I tested your exact command before I sent my previous reply.
   > They mixed.
   >

   This is really strange. On which system did you test? unix, linux or a
   surrogate (cygwin, msys)? I asked this because bible.txt is 4.25MB size
   (https://github.com/mxw/grmr/blob/master/src/finaltests/bible.txt)...
   and the OP needs to send only commands (I hope smaller than the bible).

I tested it on both Linux and FreeBSD.  My test data was a 289M file I
happend to have handy.  I didn't try to see how much smaller that file
could be to still see mixing, but I can tell you that on FreeBSD
PIPE_BUF is 512 bytes and on Linux PIPE_BUF is 4096 bytes.  Recent
versions of POSIX apparently require PIPE_BUF to be at least 512.  (My
older copy of POSIX doesn't mention any lower bound at all!)

So as long as the OP's commands are no longer than 512 bytes, and as
long as they are careful to send commands in a single call to write(),
and as long as the commands don't require a reply, they can get away
with using a pipe/FIFO.  (Or maybe they can know that there will only
ever be one client.)

-- 
Alan Bawden

From nospam at please.ty  Sat Jan  2 06:33:11 2021
From: nospam at please.ty (jak)
Date: Sat, 2 Jan 2021 12:33:11 +0100
Subject: Control stript which is runing in background.
References: <rslpup$1nek$1@gioia.aioe.org> <X+5wPxxrDjWAkjyQ@cskk.homeip.net>
 <mailman.588.1609461828.7193.python-list@python.org>
 <rsm28r$al0$1@gioia.aioe.org> <86a6ttjkmd.fsf@williamsburg.bawden.org>
 <rsmrom$m9e$1@gioia.aioe.org> <865z4gjj5x.fsf@williamsburg.bawden.org>
 <rspk40$sa2$1@gioia.aioe.org>
Message-ID: <rsplll$1iuh$1@gioia.aioe.org>

PS:
difference starts after 64K block

From greg.ewing at canterbury.ac.nz  Sat Jan  2 08:45:47 2021
From: greg.ewing at canterbury.ac.nz (Greg Ewing)
Date: Sun, 3 Jan 2021 02:45:47 +1300
Subject: Control stript which is runing in background.
In-Reply-To: <861rf3k233.fsf@williamsburg.bawden.org>
References: <rslpup$1nek$1@gioia.aioe.org> <X+5wPxxrDjWAkjyQ@cskk.homeip.net>
 <mailman.588.1609461828.7193.python-list@python.org>
 <rsm28r$al0$1@gioia.aioe.org> <86a6ttjkmd.fsf@williamsburg.bawden.org>
 <rsmrom$m9e$1@gioia.aioe.org> <865z4gjj5x.fsf@williamsburg.bawden.org>
 <rsp8t1$g0q$1@gioia.aioe.org> <861rf3k233.fsf@williamsburg.bawden.org>
Message-ID: <i5bbobF4idcU1@mid.individual.net>

On 3/01/21 12:30 am, Alan Bawden wrote:
> So as long as the OP's commands are no longer than 512 bytes, and as
> long as they are careful to send commands in a single call to write(),

Also note that's one write() system call, which may or may not
correspond to one Python write() call.

-- 
Greg

From topandroidapps.zooparty at gmail.com  Sat Jan  2 12:14:34 2021
From: topandroidapps.zooparty at gmail.com (Housebyte Bestofnet)
Date: Sat, 2 Jan 2021 09:14:34 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Kalman Filter for predicting randomized chaos in jupyter labs
Message-ID: <bfd11767-914c-4e38-9363-eecbeafd68c0n@googlegroups.com>

As a start to this forum Ive included this wonderful peice of Vanilla code - [b]The Kalman Filter[/b]
I downloaded from github this wonderfully elegant Kalman filter : [url]https://github.com/hbcbh1999/kalman-filter[/url] Its a really nice and simple implementation using the equations you can find on wikipedia [url]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kalman_filter[/url] It looks really awsome when applied to the [url=http://spacetripping.just4books.co.uk/HiRobot/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=6]Arneodo XS dimension Chaotic Attractor[/url] with added noise. Enjoy. 

[color=#FF0000]Works in Python 2.7 or Python 3.0+[/color]

[code]#!/usr/bin/env python
# coding: utf-8

# In[1]:


get_ipython().magic(u'matplotlib inline')
import numpy as np


# In[2]:


class KalmanFilter(object):
    def __init__(self, F = None, B = None, H = None, Q = None, R = None, P = None, x0 = None):

        if(F is None or H is None):
            raise ValueError("Set proper system dynamics.")

        self.n = F.shape[1]
        self.m = H.shape[1]

        self.F = F
        self.H = H
        self.B = 0 if B is None else B
        self.Q = np.eye(self.n) if Q is None else Q
        self.R = np.eye(self.n) if R is None else R
        self.P = np.eye(self.n) if P is None else P
        self.x = np.zeros((self.n, 1)) if x0 is None else x0

    def predict(self, u = 0):
        self.x = np.dot(self.F, self.x) + np.dot(self.B, u)
        self.P = np.dot(np.dot(self.F, self.P), self.F.T) + self.Q
        return self.x

    def update(self, z):
        y = z - np.dot(self.H, self.x)
        S = self.R + np.dot(self.H, np.dot(self.P, self.H.T))
        K = np.dot(np.dot(self.P, self.H.T), np.linalg.inv(S))
        self.x = self.x + np.dot(K, y)
        I = np.eye(self.n)
        self.P = np.dot(np.dot(I - np.dot(K, self.H), self.P), 
        	(I - np.dot(K, self.H)).T) + np.dot(np.dot(K, self.R), K.T)
        return y
        

def arneodo(x, y, z, a=-5.5, b=3.5, c=-1):
    '''
    Given:
       x, y, z: a point of interest in three dimensional space
       s, r, b: parameters defining the lorenz attractor
    Returns:
       x_dot, y_dot, z_dot: values of the lorenz attractor's partial
           derivatives at the point x, y, z
    '''
    x_dot = y
    y_dot = z
    z_dot = -a*x-b*y-z+c*(x**3)
    return x_dot, y_dot, z_dot


dt = 0.01
num_steps = 7000

# Need one more for the initial values
xs = np.empty(num_steps + 1)
ys = np.empty(num_steps + 1)
zs = np.empty(num_steps + 1)

# Set initial values
xs[0], ys[0], zs[0] = (0.1, 0, 0.1)

# Step through "time", calculating the partial derivatives at the current point
# and using them to estimate the next point
for i in range(num_steps):
    x_dot, y_dot, z_dot = arneodo(xs[i], ys[i], zs[i])
    xs[i + 1] = xs[i] + (x_dot * dt)
    ys[i + 1] = ys[i] + (y_dot * dt)
    zs[i + 1] = zs[i] + (z_dot * dt)

def example():
    dt = 1.0/60
    F = np.array([[1, dt, 0], [0, 1, dt], [0, 0, 1]]).reshape(3,3)
    H = np.array([1, 0, 0]).reshape(1, 3)
    Q = np.array([[0.05, 0.05, 0.0], [0.05, 0.05, 0.0], [0.0, 0.0, 0.0]]).reshape(3,3)
    R = np.array([0.5]).reshape(1, 1)
    Error = np.empty(7002)
      
    x = np.linspace(-10, 10, 100)
    measurements = xs + np.random.normal(0, 2, 7001)
#- (x**2 + 2*x - 2)
    kf = KalmanFilter(F = F, H = H, Q = Q, R = R)
    predictions = []

    n=0
    for z in measurements:
        n+=1
        predictions.append(np.dot(H,  kf.predict())[0])
        Error[n] =kf.update(z)
         
        

    import matplotlib.pyplot as plt
    plt.plot(range(len(Error)), Error, label = 'Error')
    plt.plot(range(len(measurements)), measurements, label = 'Measurements')
    plt.plot(range(len(predictions)), np.array(predictions), label = 'Kalman Filter Prediction')
    plt.plot(range(len(xs)), xs, label = 'Signal')
    plt.legend()
    plt.show()
    
if __name__ == '__main__':
    example()

[/code]

The proceeding discussions will be about the use of the following matrices in the Kalman Filter, what form they may take and how they can be derived from the distribution we are modelling :

    dt = 1.0/60
    F = np.array([[1, dt, 0], [0, 1, dt], [0, 0, 1]]).reshape(3,3)   #State Transition Model
    H = np.array([1, 0, 0]).reshape(1, 3)                                  #Observation Model
    Q = np.array([[0.05, 0.05, 0.0], [0.05, 0.05, 0.0], [0.0, 0.0, 0.0]]).reshape(3,3)   #Covariance Matrix
    R = np.array([0.5]).reshape(1, 1)[/code]     #Covariance Matrix

[url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autoregressive_integrated_moving_average]ARIMA - Wikipedia[/url]

[img]http://spacetripping.just4books.co.uk/HiRobot/output_4_0.png[/img]

Original source:
http://spacetripping.just4books.co.uk/HiRobot/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=3

From Bischoop at vimart.net  Sat Jan  2 13:36:47 2021
From: Bischoop at vimart.net (Bischoop)
Date: Sat, 2 Jan 2021 18:36:47 -0000 (UTC)
Subject: A random word from one of two lists
References: <slrnruva9e.9n5.Bischoop@vimart.net>
 <choice-20210102032912@ram.dialup.fu-berlin.de>
Message-ID: <slrnrv1f9v.m2u.Bischoop@vimart.net>

On 2021-01-02, Stefan Ram <ram at zedat.fu-berlin.de> wrote:
>
>   The following might /not/ be good programming style,
>   but addresses the idea to choose a "variable".
>
I kinda like the below one.
> import random
> animal = ['koala', 'kangaroo']
> fruit = ['banana', 'apple']
> kinds = ['animal','fruit']
> variable = random.choice( kinds )
> result = random.choice( globals()[ variable ])
> print( result )
>


>   Otherweise, I'd go this way without a dictionary.
> import random
> animal = ['koala', 'kangaroo']
> fruit = ['banana', 'apple']
> kinds = [animal,fruit]
> kind = random.choice( kinds )
> result = random.choice( kind )
> print( result )
>
I had that solution in mind but I thought that one is not good
programming style or not Pythonin :-)


--
Thanks
>

From PythonList at DancesWithMice.info  Sat Jan  2 15:42:20 2021
From: PythonList at DancesWithMice.info (dn)
Date: Sun, 3 Jan 2021 09:42:20 +1300
Subject: Plotting in python for Monte Carlo Method
In-Reply-To: <CA+Vnj_oMc-QwbjrR=F_RFe4qoH0=girkcoWpnJ2vCXqUaEZNkQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CA+Vnj_oMc-QwbjrR=F_RFe4qoH0=girkcoWpnJ2vCXqUaEZNkQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <6376e994-fc19-5556-45f1-b78dd0256ef8@DancesWithMice.info>

On 1/2/21 12:17 AM, Meghna Karkera wrote:
> Dear Respected Sir
> 
> May I request you to help me plot the number of histories versus standard
> deviation along with mean for integral of 2x dx from 0 to 5 abtained using
> the Monte Carlo python program.
> 
> I've calculated the integral of 2x dx from 0 to 5 using the Monte Carlo
> method described in the following link. https://youtu.be/WAf0rqwAvgg


Welcome to the list. Let's try to clarify a few points:-

Is this request connected with a course of study? If so, which one?

We don't 'do homework' but are happy to help. What code have you written
so far, and which part is not working?
(please copy-paste exact code and error messages, after reducing the
code to its shortest reproducible state)

NB there is also the Python-Tutor Discussion List which is specifically
for trainees' and trainers' use.


Contrarily, if you are looking for someone to write code for you, then
there are likely many 'here' who will be happy to quote an hourly-rate.
-- 
Regards =dn

From tjreedy at udel.edu  Sat Jan  2 17:16:43 2021
From: tjreedy at udel.edu (Terry Reedy)
Date: Sat, 2 Jan 2021 17:16:43 -0500
Subject: ANN: unicode 2.8
In-Reply-To: <rso1rc$5bm$1@gioia.aioe.org>
References: <rsknkm$oke$1__36657.8751521715$1609426306$gmane$org@gioia.aioe.org>
 <rsla1j$t9t$1@ciao.gmane.io>
 <mailman.584.1609445807.7193.python-list@python.org>
 <rso1rc$5bm$1@gioia.aioe.org>
Message-ID: <rsqrcc$o1p$1@ciao.gmane.io>

On 1/1/2021 3:48 PM, garabik-news-2005-05 at kassiopeia.juls.savba.sk wrote:
> Terry Reedy <tjreedy at udel.edu> wrote:
>> On 12/31/2020 9:36 AM, garabik-news-2005-05 at kassiopeia.juls.savba.sk wrote:
>>> unicode is a simple python command line utility that displays
>>> properties for a given unicode character, or searches
>>> unicode database for a given name.
>> ...
>>> Changes since previous versions:
>>>
>>>    * display ASCII table (either traditional with --ascii or the new
>>>      EU?UK Trade and Cooperation Agreement version with --brexit-ascii)

The latter option implied to me that the agreement defines an 
intentional variation on standard ASCII.  I immediately wondered whether 
they had changed the actual 7-bit ascii code, which would be egregiously 
bad, or made yet another variation of 8-bit 'extended ascii', perhaps to 
ensure inclusion both the pound and euro signs.

So I googled 'brexit ascii'.  And was surprised to discover that there 
is no such thing as 'brexit ascii', just yet another cock-up in text 
preparation.  (I have seen worse when a digital text of mine was mangled 
during markup.  Fortunately, I was allowed to read the page proofs.  But 
I still don't understand how spelling errors were introduced within 
words I had spelled correctly.)

>> Are you reproducing it with bugs included?
>> How is that of any use to anyone?

I followed this with links to justify my claim and question:

A tweet linking the treaty annex page
https://twitter.com/thejsa_/status/1343291595899207681

A stackoverflow question and discussion of the bugs and oddities.
https://politics.stackexchange.com/questions/61178/why-does-the-eu-uk-trade-deal-have-the-7-bit-ascii-table-as-an-appendix

In the latter are mentions of other text, perhaps copy-pasted from the 
1990s recommending the now deprecated SHA1 and referring to Netscape 
Navigator 4 as a modern browser.  Clearly, in the rush to finish, the 
annex was not properly reviewed by current technical experts.

> Including the (correct) ASCII table has been a long term, low priority -
> I am using ascii(1) utility reasonably often and it makes sense to
> reproduce this functionality.
> 
> And when implementing this, it was a no-brainer to include also the
> brexit varian (verbatim).

I assume you meant 'variation' and not Varian, the maker of scientific 
instruments.

But why do you consider it a no-brainer to include nonsense in your 
program and mislead people?  People already have enough trouble dealing 
with text coding.

> After all, given the blood and sweat and tears
> shed during the negotiations, I am sure each and every line of the
> Agreement has been combed and (re)negotiated over and over by experienced
> negotiators and verified an army of experts in the fields <sarcasm off/>

What are we supposed to make of this?  That you already knew that 
'brexit-ascii' is nonsense?


-- 
Terry Jan Reedy



From rosuav at gmail.com  Sat Jan  2 18:53:43 2021
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Sun, 3 Jan 2021 10:53:43 +1100
Subject: ANN: unicode 2.8
In-Reply-To: <rsqrcc$o1p$1@ciao.gmane.io>
References: <rsknkm$oke$1__36657.8751521715$1609426306$gmane$org@gioia.aioe.org>
 <rsla1j$t9t$1@ciao.gmane.io>
 <mailman.584.1609445807.7193.python-list@python.org>
 <rso1rc$5bm$1@gioia.aioe.org> <rsqrcc$o1p$1@ciao.gmane.io>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmqkj783RaNpBwQ-XGB4wSb3bcBsZUnv_UT8cEFgGUdMng@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Jan 3, 2021 at 10:28 AM Terry Reedy <tjreedy at udel.edu> wrote:
> > And when implementing this, it was a no-brainer to include also the
> > brexit varian (verbatim).
>
> I assume you meant 'variation' and not Varian, the maker of scientific
> instruments.

I assumed simple typo for "variant"

ChrisA

From arj.python at gmail.com  Sat Jan  2 23:01:54 2021
From: arj.python at gmail.com (Abdur-Rahmaan Janhangeer)
Date: Sun, 3 Jan 2021 08:01:54 +0400
Subject: Python Mauritius Usergroup - End of Year report 2020
Message-ID: <CADrxXX=t+PsSU9qQKpFJbR3Xpy-Ov8ekEBN3CcmEzjDBCP9_mA@mail.gmail.com>

Greetings list,

Here's our usergroup's end of year report for 2020:
Happy reading!

https://www.pymug.com/assets/pymug_end_of_year_2020_v2.pdf

Kind Regards,

Abdur-Rahmaan Janhangeer
about <https://compileralchemy.github.io/> | blog
<https://www.pythonkitchen.com>
github <https://github.com/Abdur-RahmaanJ>
Mauritius

From PythonList at DancesWithMice.info  Sat Jan  2 23:12:22 2021
From: PythonList at DancesWithMice.info (dn)
Date: Sun, 3 Jan 2021 17:12:22 +1300
Subject: Python Mauritius Usergroup - End of Year report 2020
In-Reply-To: <CADrxXX=t+PsSU9qQKpFJbR3Xpy-Ov8ekEBN3CcmEzjDBCP9_mA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CADrxXX=t+PsSU9qQKpFJbR3Xpy-Ov8ekEBN3CcmEzjDBCP9_mA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <73c514b9-3772-bbaf-ec41-f739368396ea@DancesWithMice.info>

On 1/3/21 5:01 PM, Abdur-Rahmaan Janhangeer wrote:
> Greetings list,
> 
> Here's our usergroup's end of year report for 2020:
> Happy reading!
> 
> https://www.pymug.com/assets/pymug_end_of_year_2020_v2.pdf


Well done @A-R!
-- 
Regards =dn

From arj.python at gmail.com  Sun Jan  3 04:03:15 2021
From: arj.python at gmail.com (Abdur-Rahmaan Janhangeer)
Date: Sun, 3 Jan 2021 13:03:15 +0400
Subject: Python Mauritius Usergroup - End of Year report 2020
In-Reply-To: <73c514b9-3772-bbaf-ec41-f739368396ea@DancesWithMice.info>
References: <CADrxXX=t+PsSU9qQKpFJbR3Xpy-Ov8ekEBN3CcmEzjDBCP9_mA@mail.gmail.com>
 <73c514b9-3772-bbaf-ec41-f739368396ea@DancesWithMice.info>
Message-ID: <CADrxXXmJbrjY5rnt+aZh4POy8bxkLYJsSWvt2JPzVb_DngN5pw@mail.gmail.com>

Greetings,

^^ Thanks!

Kind Regards,

Abdur-Rahmaan Janhangeer
about <https://compileralchemy.github.io/> | blog
<https://www.pythonkitchen.com>
github <https://github.com/Abdur-RahmaanJ>
Mauritius


On Sun, Jan 3, 2021 at 8:12 AM dn via Python-list <python-list at python.org>
wrote:

> On 1/3/21 5:01 PM, Abdur-Rahmaan Janhangeer wrote:
> > Greetings list,
> >
> > Here's our usergroup's end of year report for 2020:
> > Happy reading!
> >
> > https://www.pymug.com/assets/pymug_end_of_year_2020_v2.pdf
>
>
> Well done @A-R!
> --
> Regards =dn
> --
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
>

From Bischoop at vimart.net  Sun Jan  3 07:30:58 2021
From: Bischoop at vimart.net (Bischoop)
Date: Sun, 3 Jan 2021 12:30:58 -0000 (UTC)
Subject: A random word from one of two lists
References: <slrnruva9e.9n5.Bischoop@vimart.net>
 <choice-20210102032912@ram.dialup.fu-berlin.de>
 <slrnrv1f9v.m2u.Bischoop@vimart.net>
 <nested-lists-20210102195619@ram.dialup.fu-berlin.de>
Message-ID: <slrnrv3e82.32f.Bischoop@vimart.net>

On 2021-01-02, Stefan Ram <ram at zedat.fu-berlin.de> wrote:
> Bischoop <Bischoop at vimart.net> writes:
>>On 2021-01-02, Stefan Ram <ram at zedat.fu-berlin.de> wrote:
>>>Otherweise, I'd go this way without a dictionary.
>>>import random
>>>animal = ['koala', 'kangaroo']
>>>fruit = ['banana', 'apple']
>>>kinds = [animal,fruit]
>>>kind = random.choice( kinds )
>>>result = random.choice( kind )
>>>print( result )
>>I had that solution in mind but I thought that one is not good
>>programming style or not Pythonin :-)
>
>   I do not see any stylistic problem when you use this approach
>   with "nested lists". List indexing by a number should even be
>   faster than indexing a dictionary.
>
>
Now I know that's ok, seems I was ovethingking while solution was so
simply.

--
Thanks

From barry at barrys-emacs.org  Sun Jan  3 08:49:46 2021
From: barry at barrys-emacs.org (Barry Scott)
Date: Sun, 3 Jan 2021 13:49:46 +0000
Subject: Does windows edit .py file shebangs?
In-Reply-To: <CACL+1atTHtEmEGPdK7tkJ+aOCku6A-SxcYNprM9RFeQhmdHJBw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <00C1C4B3-01C9-4DE9-AD24-17A0C209D998@barrys-emacs.org>
 <CACL+1atTHtEmEGPdK7tkJ+aOCku6A-SxcYNprM9RFeQhmdHJBw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <02DECEE8-FE3C-4111-8D79-6671999FD023@barrys-emacs.org>



> On 1 Jan 2021, at 17:03, Eryk Sun <eryksun at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> On 1/1/21, Barry Scott <barry at barrys-emacs.org> wrote:
>> I found python scripts have had their shebang lines edited behind my back.
>> 
>> The shebang line I'm seeing is:
>> 
>>    #!C:\Users\barry\AppData\Local\Microsoft\WindowsApps\python3.EXE
>> 
>> Is this Microsoft being "helpful"?
>> Does anyone know what I will have done to best with this "help"?
>> 
>> What do I need to do to prevent this happening?
> 
> Shebang lines may be localized to the current interpreter when
> installing a package. Otherwise I don't know what's causing that.

These are personal scripts not installed from PyPI for example.

> 
> Regarding Windows, the system doesn't support shebang lines in any
> way. Python's installer associates .py files with the py.exe launcher,
> which looks for a shebang line in a script in order to determine which
> executable to run. It supports shebangs with fully-qualified Windows
> paths, as well as virtual commands for registered installations, such
> as "python", "python3", "python3.9-32", "/usr/bin/python3", and
> "/usr/bin/env python".

Indeed since py.exe is the only tool that supports the shebang this is very strange
that the change was made. I rely on py.exe handling shebang for my cross platform
scripts.

I've been doing some more investigation and found that the change happened
at 01/01/2021 16:16. The shebang is pointing to a 0 length PYTHON3.EXE.

The files that where changed where all in my %USERPROFILE%\bin
folder that is on my PATH. I manage the files in that folder with tools that
sync the files from an SVN repo. The version of the files in the repo do not
have the edit.

My PATH does not have a PYTHON.EXE or PYTHON3.EXE on it as
I use py.exe.

Is that the path used by the Microsoft store for the python alias?

I have now turned off the alias in the "Manage App execution aliases"
in settings.

I did find this blog post from Steve Dower about the app store python.

https://devblogs.microsoft.com/python/python-in-the-windows-10-may-2019-update/ <https://devblogs.microsoft.com/python/python-in-the-windows-10-may-2019-update/>

I have also scanned the Windows logs for events at the time stamp from the
file and could not see anything. 

Thinking back to the 1st I did run Visual Studio 2019 Community edition at that time.
It was  first time on a long time and I had to login and update it.

Is Visual Studio doing the change? If so why?

Barry


> -- 
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
> 


From mystirk at gmail.com  Sun Jan  3 09:48:56 2021
From: mystirk at gmail.com (Alex Kaye)
Date: Sun, 3 Jan 2021 07:48:56 -0700
Subject: Python Mauritius Usergroup - End of Year report 2020
In-Reply-To: <CADrxXXmJbrjY5rnt+aZh4POy8bxkLYJsSWvt2JPzVb_DngN5pw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CADrxXX=t+PsSU9qQKpFJbR3Xpy-Ov8ekEBN3CcmEzjDBCP9_mA@mail.gmail.com>
 <73c514b9-3772-bbaf-ec41-f739368396ea@DancesWithMice.info>
 <CADrxXXmJbrjY5rnt+aZh4POy8bxkLYJsSWvt2JPzVb_DngN5pw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CA+M9+8X5cSgG_LovxDCvLHD2n1Jo0U3OMbLKgODbWkbHF9WwTQ@mail.gmail.com>

Super report, need more like it from others !

A.K.

On Sun, Jan 3, 2021 at 2:06 AM Abdur-Rahmaan Janhangeer <
arj.python at gmail.com> wrote:

> Greetings,
>
> ^^ Thanks!
>
> Kind Regards,
>
> Abdur-Rahmaan Janhangeer
> about <https://compileralchemy.github.io/> | blog
> <https://www.pythonkitchen.com>
> github <https://github.com/Abdur-RahmaanJ>
> Mauritius
>
>
> On Sun, Jan 3, 2021 at 8:12 AM dn via Python-list <python-list at python.org>
> wrote:
>
> > On 1/3/21 5:01 PM, Abdur-Rahmaan Janhangeer wrote:
> > > Greetings list,
> > >
> > > Here's our usergroup's end of year report for 2020:
> > > Happy reading!
> > >
> > > https://www.pymug.com/assets/pymug_end_of_year_2020_v2.pdf
> >
> >
> > Well done @A-R!
> > --
> > Regards =dn
> > --
> > https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
> >
> --
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
>

From rshepard at appl-ecosys.com  Sun Jan  3 10:13:22 2021
From: rshepard at appl-ecosys.com (Rich Shepard)
Date: Sun, 3 Jan 2021 07:13:22 -0800 (PST)
Subject: NumPy: build script not finding correct python version
Message-ID: <alpine.LNX.2.20.2101030705230.28916@salmo.appl-ecosys.com>

I'm trying to rebuild numpy-1.18.2 using the newly installed Python-3.9.1.
The script fails when running setup.py:
Traceback (most recent call last):
   File "setup.py", line 32, in <module>
     raise RuntimeError("Python version >= 3.5 required.")
RuntimeError: Python version >= 3.5 required.

When I invoke python3 from the command line the version is correctly
indentified:
$ python3
Python 3.9.1 (default, Dec 29 2020, 15:09:15) 
[GCC 5.5.0] on linux
Type "help", "copyright", "credits" or "license" for more information.
>>> import sys
>>> sys.version_info[:2]
(3, 9)
>>>

Ignoring the large explanatory comment the lines above that throwing the
error are:
from __future__ import division, print_function

DOCLINES = (__doc__ or '').split("\n")

import os
import sys
import subprocess
import textwrap
import sysconfig


if sys.version_info[:2] < (3, 5):
     raise RuntimeError("Python version >= 3.5 required.")

I'm not seeing why sys.version_info is not finding the installed version
within the script and need insight from others with greater Python knowledge
than I have.

TIA,

Rich


From eryksun at gmail.com  Sun Jan  3 10:13:40 2021
From: eryksun at gmail.com (Eryk Sun)
Date: Sun, 3 Jan 2021 09:13:40 -0600
Subject: Does windows edit .py file shebangs?
In-Reply-To: <02DECEE8-FE3C-4111-8D79-6671999FD023@barrys-emacs.org>
References: <00C1C4B3-01C9-4DE9-AD24-17A0C209D998@barrys-emacs.org>
 <CACL+1atTHtEmEGPdK7tkJ+aOCku6A-SxcYNprM9RFeQhmdHJBw@mail.gmail.com>
 <02DECEE8-FE3C-4111-8D79-6671999FD023@barrys-emacs.org>
Message-ID: <CACL+1au-aCYVGbhN2kzZYH0Y4ZLsCDFr=sGB6DsbNS3uxaoTnw@mail.gmail.com>

On 1/3/21, Barry Scott <barry at barrys-emacs.org> wrote:
>
> I've been doing some more investigation and found that the change happened
> at 01/01/2021 16:16. The shebang is pointing to a 0 length PYTHON3.EXE.

The files in "%LocalAppData%\Microsoft\WindowsApps" are AppExec
reparse points. NT filesystem reparse points are a generalized form of
filesystem link, with registered handlers indentified by a tag value
in the reparse data buffer. Various reparse-point types implement
Unix-style mountpoints and symlinks, as well as dynamic offline and
virtual files such as OneDrive.

AppExec reparse points (aka app execution aliases) have no handler in
the kernel, so they can only be accessed by directly opening them.
WinAPI CreateProcessW uses information in the link to locate the app
and create an access token that allows executing it. The app itself is
usually installed in a directory in "%ProgramFiles%\WindowsApps".

You can view the raw contents of a reparse point using `fsutil.exe
reparsepoint query <filename>`.

> Thinking back to the 1st I did run Visual Studio 2019 Community edition at
> that time. It was first time on a long time and I had to login and update it.

You could try to reproduce the scenario to see whether it modifies
your files. I wouldn't expect it to do something like that
automatically, but it does seem like the kind of 'helpful' thing a
full-service IDE would do when saving a script.

From barry at barrys-emacs.org  Sun Jan  3 10:29:13 2021
From: barry at barrys-emacs.org (Barry Scott)
Date: Sun, 3 Jan 2021 15:29:13 +0000
Subject: Does windows edit .py file shebangs?
In-Reply-To: <CACL+1au-aCYVGbhN2kzZYH0Y4ZLsCDFr=sGB6DsbNS3uxaoTnw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <00C1C4B3-01C9-4DE9-AD24-17A0C209D998@barrys-emacs.org>
 <CACL+1atTHtEmEGPdK7tkJ+aOCku6A-SxcYNprM9RFeQhmdHJBw@mail.gmail.com>
 <02DECEE8-FE3C-4111-8D79-6671999FD023@barrys-emacs.org>
 <CACL+1au-aCYVGbhN2kzZYH0Y4ZLsCDFr=sGB6DsbNS3uxaoTnw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CC0CD34C-9806-4171-8F9B-3B7450DAA51E@barrys-emacs.org>



> On 3 Jan 2021, at 15:13, Eryk Sun <eryksun at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> On 1/3/21, Barry Scott <barry at barrys-emacs.org> wrote:
>> 
>> I've been doing some more investigation and found that the change happened
>> at 01/01/2021 16:16. The shebang is pointing to a 0 length PYTHON3.EXE.
> 
> The files in "%LocalAppData%\Microsoft\WindowsApps" are AppExec
> reparse points. NT filesystem reparse points are a generalized form of
> filesystem link, with registered handlers indentified by a tag value
> in the reparse data buffer. Various reparse-point types implement
> Unix-style mountpoints and symlinks, as well as dynamic offline and
> virtual files such as OneDrive.
> 
> AppExec reparse points (aka app execution aliases) have no handler in
> the kernel, so they can only be accessed by directly opening them.
> WinAPI CreateProcessW uses information in the link to locate the app
> and create an access token that allows executing it. The app itself is
> usually installed in a directory in "%ProgramFiles%\WindowsApps".
> 
> You can view the raw contents of a reparse point using `fsutil.exe
> reparsepoint query <filename>`.

Aha a reparse point! I've cleaned up too much to do this. 
I had to get back to a working state.

If it breaks again I'll use fsutils to investigate.

> 
>> Thinking back to the 1st I did run Visual Studio 2019 Community edition at
>> that time. It was first time on a long time and I had to login and update it.
> 
> You could try to reproduce the scenario to see whether it modifies
> your files. I wouldn't expect it to do something like that
> automatically, but it does seem like the kind of 'helpful' thing a
> full-service IDE would do when saving a script.

The only time I every use the IDE is when I run the debugger everything
else I do from the command line. The only reason I ran the IDE at all is
that is the way to get it to update itself.

In other words its not that it "fixed" a file I was editing. I can only think
that it was part of the updating of Visual Studio that did this.

Barry


> -- 
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
> 


From semantina at gmail.com  Sun Jan  3 11:34:35 2021
From: semantina at gmail.com (Codeliner)
Date: Sun, 3 Jan 2021 08:34:35 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Copying column values up based on other column values
Message-ID: <a72947e1-eae0-4508-8596-94bb74a02007n@googlegroups.com>

Hello,

I have this dataframe

import numpy as np
import pandas as pd
from numpy.random import randn
df=pd.DataFrame(randn(5,4),['A','B','C','D','E'],['W','X','Y','Z'])


W X Y Z
A -0.183141 -0.398652 0.909746 0.332105
B -0.587611 -2.046930 1.446886 0.167606
C 1.142661 -0.861617 -0.180631 1.650463
D 1.174805 -0.957653 1.854577 0.335818
E -0.680611 -1.051793 1.448004 -0.490869

is there a way to create a column S - which will copy column column Y values UP- if values in column Y are above 1 - otherwise return new value above zero?.I made this manually:

S:

A 1.446886
B 1.446886
C 1.854577
D 1.854577
E 1.448004


thanks a lot!

From rshepard at appl-ecosys.com  Sun Jan  3 11:53:43 2021
From: rshepard at appl-ecosys.com (Rich Shepard)
Date: Sun, 3 Jan 2021 08:53:43 -0800 (PST)
Subject: NumPy: build script not finding correct python version
 [UPDATE]
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LNX.2.20.2101030705230.28916@salmo.appl-ecosys.com>
References: <alpine.LNX.2.20.2101030705230.28916@salmo.appl-ecosys.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.LNX.2.20.2101030852200.28916@salmo.appl-ecosys.com>

On Sun, 3 Jan 2021, Rich Shepard wrote:

> I'm trying to rebuild numpy-1.18.2 using the newly installed Python-3.9.1.
> The script fails when running setup.py:
> Traceback (most recent call last):
>  File "setup.py", line 32, in <module>
>    raise RuntimeError("Python version >= 3.5 required.")
> RuntimeError: Python version >= 3.5 required.

Okay. Further research taught me that setup.py has been replaced with
setuptools so I need to learn how to convert the build script to setuptools
rather than setup.py.

Rich

From jsf80238 at gmail.com  Sun Jan  3 12:08:11 2021
From: jsf80238 at gmail.com (Jason Friedman)
Date: Sun, 3 Jan 2021 10:08:11 -0700
Subject: Copying column values up based on other column values
In-Reply-To: <a72947e1-eae0-4508-8596-94bb74a02007n@googlegroups.com>
References: <a72947e1-eae0-4508-8596-94bb74a02007n@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <CANy1k1hMgkEHMTaa-9Y_syHd0jybQ64gx3aMvDi8g0fcUjTKiA@mail.gmail.com>

>
> import numpy as np
> import pandas as pd
> from numpy.random import randn
> df=pd.DataFrame(randn(5,4),['A','B','C','D','E'],['W','X','Y','Z'])
>
> W X Y Z
> A -0.183141 -0.398652 0.909746 0.332105
> B -0.587611 -2.046930 1.446886 0.167606
> C 1.142661 -0.861617 -0.180631 1.650463
> D 1.174805 -0.957653 1.854577 0.335818
> E -0.680611 -1.051793 1.448004 -0.490869
>
> is there a way to create a column S - which will copy column column Y
> values UP- if values in column Y are above 1 - otherwise return new value
> above zero?.I made this manually:
>
> S:
>
> A 1.446886
> B 1.446886
> C 1.854577
> D 1.854577
> E 1.448004
>

Here's one solution. No consideration to performance.

import numpy as np
import pandas as pd
from numpy.random import randn
df=pd.DataFrame(randn(5,4),['A','B','C','D','E'],['W','X','Y','Z'])
print(df)

y_series = df["Y"]
for i in range(len(y_series)):
    if i == len(y_series) - 1:
        # Last one, nothing to copy
        break
    if y_series[i+1] > 1:
        y_series[i] = y_series[i+1]

df["Y"] = y_series
print(df)

From mats at wichmann.us  Sun Jan  3 12:38:26 2021
From: mats at wichmann.us (Mats Wichmann)
Date: Sun, 3 Jan 2021 10:38:26 -0700
Subject: A random word from one of two lists
In-Reply-To: <slrnrv3e82.32f.Bischoop@vimart.net>
References: <slrnruva9e.9n5.Bischoop@vimart.net>
 <choice-20210102032912@ram.dialup.fu-berlin.de>
 <slrnrv1f9v.m2u.Bischoop@vimart.net>
 <nested-lists-20210102195619@ram.dialup.fu-berlin.de>
 <slrnrv3e82.32f.Bischoop@vimart.net>
Message-ID: <86d5018e-b835-ea1f-ed84-99829e0edc89@wichmann.us>

On 1/3/21 5:30 AM, Bischoop wrote:
> On 2021-01-02, Stefan Ram <ram at zedat.fu-berlin.de> wrote:
>> Bischoop <Bischoop at vimart.net> writes:
>>> On 2021-01-02, Stefan Ram <ram at zedat.fu-berlin.de> wrote:
>>>> Otherweise, I'd go this way without a dictionary.
>>>> import random
>>>> animal = ['koala', 'kangaroo']
>>>> fruit = ['banana', 'apple']
>>>> kinds = [animal,fruit]
>>>> kind = random.choice( kinds )
>>>> result = random.choice( kind )
>>>> print( result )
>>> I had that solution in mind but I thought that one is not good
>>> programming style or not Pythonin :-)
>>
>>    I do not see any stylistic problem when you use this approach
>>    with "nested lists". List indexing by a number should even be
>>    faster than indexing a dictionary.
>>
>>
> Now I know that's ok, seems I was ovethingking while solution was so
> simply.
> 
> --
> Thanks
> 

You don't really need to do this as a two-level selection:

import random
animal = ['koala', 'kangaroo']
fruit = ['banana', 'apple']
result = random.choice(animal + fruit)
print(result)

From semantina at gmail.com  Sun Jan  3 13:16:55 2021
From: semantina at gmail.com (Codeliner)
Date: Sun, 3 Jan 2021 10:16:55 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Copying column values up based on other column values
In-Reply-To: <mailman.628.1609693704.7193.python-list@python.org>
References: <CANy1k1hMgkEHMTaa-9Y_syHd0jybQ64gx3aMvDi8g0fcUjTKiA@mail.gmail.com>
 <a72947e1-eae0-4508-8596-94bb74a02007n@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.628.1609693704.7193.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <e0212179-93b6-47e5-87eb-a3fe3c7ce665n@googlegroups.com>

On Sunday, January 3, 2021 at 7:08:49 PM UTC+2, Jason Friedman wrote:
> > 
> > import numpy as np 
> > import pandas as pd 
> > from numpy.random import randn 
> > df=pd.DataFrame(randn(5,4),['A','B','C','D','E'],['W','X','Y','Z']) 
> > 
> > W X Y Z 
> > A -0.183141 -0.398652 0.909746 0.332105 
> > B -0.587611 -2.046930 1.446886 0.167606 
> > C 1.142661 -0.861617 -0.180631 1.650463 
> > D 1.174805 -0.957653 1.854577 0.335818 
> > E -0.680611 -1.051793 1.448004 -0.490869 
> > 
> > is there a way to create a column S - which will copy column column Y 
> > values UP- if values in column Y are above 1 - otherwise return new value 
> > above zero?.I made this manually: 
> > 
> > S: 
> > 
> > A 1.446886 
> > B 1.446886 
> > C 1.854577 
> > D 1.854577 
> > E 1.448004 
> >
> Here's one solution. No consideration to performance.
> import numpy as np 
> import pandas as pd 
> from numpy.random import randn 
> df=pd.DataFrame(randn(5,4),['A','B','C','D','E'],['W','X','Y','Z'])
> print(df) 
> 
> y_series = df["Y"] 
> for i in range(len(y_series)): 
> if i == len(y_series) - 1: 
> # Last one, nothing to copy 
> break 
> if y_series[i+1] > 1: 
> y_series[i] = y_series[i+1] 
> 
> df["Y"] = y_series 
> print(df)


Thank you Jason for this lovely for loop - is there a way to make this with pandas series or numpy arrays? for maximum speed?

From Richard at Damon-Family.org  Sun Jan  3 13:34:19 2021
From: Richard at Damon-Family.org (Richard Damon)
Date: Sun, 3 Jan 2021 13:34:19 -0500
Subject: A random word from one of two lists
In-Reply-To: <86d5018e-b835-ea1f-ed84-99829e0edc89@wichmann.us>
References: <slrnruva9e.9n5.Bischoop@vimart.net>
 <choice-20210102032912@ram.dialup.fu-berlin.de>
 <slrnrv1f9v.m2u.Bischoop@vimart.net>
 <nested-lists-20210102195619@ram.dialup.fu-berlin.de>
 <slrnrv3e82.32f.Bischoop@vimart.net>
 <86d5018e-b835-ea1f-ed84-99829e0edc89@wichmann.us>
Message-ID: <3e20779e-ceea-e74f-c62e-d4d2f785de86@Damon-Family.org>

On 1/3/21 12:38 PM, Mats Wichmann wrote:
> On 1/3/21 5:30 AM, Bischoop wrote:
>> On 2021-01-02, Stefan Ram <ram at zedat.fu-berlin.de> wrote:
>>> Bischoop <Bischoop at vimart.net> writes:
>>>> On 2021-01-02, Stefan Ram <ram at zedat.fu-berlin.de> wrote:
>>>>> Otherweise, I'd go this way without a dictionary.
>>>>> import random
>>>>> animal = ['koala', 'kangaroo']
>>>>> fruit = ['banana', 'apple']
>>>>> kinds = [animal,fruit]
>>>>> kind = random.choice( kinds )
>>>>> result = random.choice( kind )
>>>>> print( result )
>>>> I had that solution in mind but I thought that one is not good
>>>> programming style or not Pythonin :-)
>>>
>>> ?? I do not see any stylistic problem when you use this approach
>>> ?? with "nested lists". List indexing by a number should even be
>>> ?? faster than indexing a dictionary.
>>>
>>>
>> Now I know that's ok, seems I was ovethingking while solution was so
>> simply.
>>
>> -- 
>> Thanks
>>
>
> You don't really need to do this as a two-level selection:
>
> import random
> animal = ['koala', 'kangaroo']
> fruit = ['banana', 'apple']
> result = random.choice(animal + fruit)
> print(result)

It depends on what distribution of results you want. Since the example
had two equal length list is doesn't matter, but if, say, there were
many more animals then fruit, your method would produce an animal more
often than a fruit, but the two level method will make the distribution
50% fruits, 50% animals independent on the number in each category.

Which is the right answer is problem specific.

-- 
Richard Damon


From semantina at gmail.com  Sun Jan  3 13:32:53 2021
From: semantina at gmail.com (Codeliner)
Date: Sun, 3 Jan 2021 10:32:53 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Copying column values up based on other column values
In-Reply-To: <e0212179-93b6-47e5-87eb-a3fe3c7ce665n@googlegroups.com>
References: <CANy1k1hMgkEHMTaa-9Y_syHd0jybQ64gx3aMvDi8g0fcUjTKiA@mail.gmail.com>
 <a72947e1-eae0-4508-8596-94bb74a02007n@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.628.1609693704.7193.python-list@python.org>
 <e0212179-93b6-47e5-87eb-a3fe3c7ce665n@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <0542abf2-425a-409c-8fa5-3cd51daaf869n@googlegroups.com>

On Sunday, January 3, 2021 at 8:17:16 PM UTC+2, Codeliner wrote:
> On Sunday, January 3, 2021 at 7:08:49 PM UTC+2, Jason Friedman wrote: 
> > > 
> > > import numpy as np 
> > > import pandas as pd 
> > > from numpy.random import randn 
> > > df=pd.DataFrame(randn(5,4),['A','B','C','D','E'],['W','X','Y','Z']) 
> > > 
> > > W X Y Z 
> > > A -0.183141 -0.398652 0.909746 0.332105 
> > > B -0.587611 -2.046930 1.446886 0.167606 
> > > C 1.142661 -0.861617 -0.180631 1.650463 
> > > D 1.174805 -0.957653 1.854577 0.335818 
> > > E -0.680611 -1.051793 1.448004 -0.490869 
> > > 
> > > is there a way to create a column S - which will copy column column Y 
> > > values UP- if values in column Y are above 1 - otherwise return new value 
> > > above zero?.I made this manually: 
> > > 
> > > S: 
> > > 
> > > A 1.446886 
> > > B 1.446886 
> > > C 1.854577 
> > > D 1.854577 
> > > E 1.448004 
> > > 
> > Here's one solution. No consideration to performance. 
> > import numpy as np 
> > import pandas as pd 
> > from numpy.random import randn 
> > df=pd.DataFrame(randn(5,4),['A','B','C','D','E'],['W','X','Y','Z']) 
> > print(df) 
> > 
> > y_series = df["Y"] 
> > for i in range(len(y_series)): 
> > if i == len(y_series) - 1: 
> > # Last one, nothing to copy 
> > break 
> > if y_series[i+1] > 1: 
> > y_series[i] = y_series[i+1] 
> > 
> > df["Y"] = y_series 
> > print(df)
> Thank you Jason for this lovely for loop - is there a way to make this with pandas series or numpy arrays? for maximum speed?


can something done along these lines?

df['run2'] = df['b'].apply(lambda x: df['b'].shift(1) if x > 1 else df['b'])

From mats at wichmann.us  Sun Jan  3 14:40:47 2021
From: mats at wichmann.us (Mats Wichmann)
Date: Sun, 3 Jan 2021 12:40:47 -0700
Subject: A random word from one of two lists
In-Reply-To: <3e20779e-ceea-e74f-c62e-d4d2f785de86@Damon-Family.org>
References: <slrnruva9e.9n5.Bischoop@vimart.net>
 <choice-20210102032912@ram.dialup.fu-berlin.de>
 <slrnrv1f9v.m2u.Bischoop@vimart.net>
 <nested-lists-20210102195619@ram.dialup.fu-berlin.de>
 <slrnrv3e82.32f.Bischoop@vimart.net>
 <86d5018e-b835-ea1f-ed84-99829e0edc89@wichmann.us>
 <3e20779e-ceea-e74f-c62e-d4d2f785de86@Damon-Family.org>
Message-ID: <ee1c7985-e113-e53e-005e-a5fa84402526@wichmann.us>

On 1/3/21 11:34 AM, Richard Damon wrote:

> It depends on what distribution of results you want. Since the example
> had two equal length list is doesn't matter, but if, say, there were
> many more animals then fruit, your method would produce an animal more
> often than a fruit, but the two level method will make the distribution
> 50% fruits, 50% animals independent on the number in each category.
> 
> Which is the right answer is problem specific.

quite true!



From pablogsal at gmail.com  Mon Jan  4 16:36:59 2021
From: pablogsal at gmail.com (Pablo Galindo Salgado)
Date: Mon, 4 Jan 2021 21:36:59 +0000
Subject: [RELEASE] Python 3.10.0a4 is now available
Message-ID: <CAFjbc8GxEg2a4HoVMc0RGf2qo7ye+fvucO7v_zbR3fPxbt_H9A@mail.gmail.com>

Happy new year to all of you. I hope you all have a great start of the
year! And how to best celebrate that we have left 2020 behind that with a
new Python alpha release? :)  Go get it here:

https://www.python.org/downloads/release/python-3100a4/


*Major new features of the 3.10 series, compared to 3.9*
Python 3.10 is still in development. This releasee, 3.10.0a4 is the second
of six planned alpha releases.
Alpha releases are intended to make it easier to test the current state of
new features and bug fixes and to test the release process.
During the alpha phase, features may be added up until the start of the
beta phase (2021-05-03) and, if necessary, may be modified or deleted up
until the release candidate phase (2021-10-04). Please keep in mind that
this is a preview release and its use is not recommended for production
environments.

Many new features for Python 3.10 are still being planned and written.
Among the new major
new features and changes so far:

* PEP 623 ? Remove wstr from Unicode
* PEP 604 ? Allow writing union types as X | Y
* PEP 612 ? Parameter Specification Variables
* PEP 626 ? Precise line numbers for debugging and other tools.
* bpo-38605: from __future__ import annotations (PEP 563) is now the
default.
* PEP 618 ? Add Optional Length-Checking To zip.

(Hey, fellow core developer, if a feature you find important is missing
from this list, let me know.)
The next pre-release of Python 3.10 will be 3.10.0a5, currently scheduled
for 2021-02-01.


*And now for something completely different*
The Majumdar?Papapetrou spacetime
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sudhansu_Datta_Majumdar#Majumdar%E2%80%93Papapetrou_solution>
is
one surprising solution of the coupled Einstein-Maxwell equations that
describe a cluster of static charged black holes with the gravitational and
the electrostatic forces cancelling each other out. Each one of these many
black holes of the multi-black holes system has a spherical topology and
follows the Reissner?Nordstr?m metric
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reissner%E2%80%93Nordstr%C3%B6m_metric>.
Unsurprisingly, the movement of a test particle in such spacetime is not
only a very chaotic system but also has some fractals
<https://arxiv.org/abs/gr-qc/9502014> hiding the complexity of its movement.

Regards from cold London,
Pablo Galindo Salgado

From martin.schoon at gmail.com  Tue Jan  5 15:55:10 2021
From: martin.schoon at gmail.com (Martin =?UTF-8?Q?Sch=C3=B6=C3=B6n?=)
Date: 5 Jan 2021 20:55:10 GMT
Subject: dayofyear is not great when going into a new year
Message-ID: <i5k21eFq2qnU1@mid.individual.net>

Hello,

I have had some Python fun with COVID-19 data. I have done
some curve fitting and to make that easier I have transformed
date to day of year. Come end of 2020 and beginning of 2021
and this idea falls on its face.

There must be a better way of doing this.

I am using Pandas for reading and manipulating data coming
from a csv file. Scipy, numpy and matplotlib are used
for the curve fitting and plotting.

TIA,

/Martin

From rosuav at gmail.com  Tue Jan  5 16:27:58 2021
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 2021 08:27:58 +1100
Subject: dayofyear is not great when going into a new year
In-Reply-To: <i5k21eFq2qnU1@mid.individual.net>
References: <i5k21eFq2qnU1@mid.individual.net>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmrB8LDCP+05D6OurRcSw3XeDg1jX17AcddCZ2CQ=zWU-w@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Jan 6, 2021 at 8:02 AM Martin Sch??n <martin.schoon at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Hello,
>
> I have had some Python fun with COVID-19 data. I have done
> some curve fitting and to make that easier I have transformed
> date to day of year. Come end of 2020 and beginning of 2021
> and this idea falls on its face.
>

There are multiple definitions for "day of year", depending on how you
want to handle certain oddities. The simplest is to identify Jan 1st
as 1, Jan 2nd as 2, etc, to Dec 31st as either 365 or 366; but some
libraries will define the year as starting with the week that contains
the Thursday, or something, and then will define days of year
accordingly.

If you want an easy way to graph day-by-day data and the exact day
numbers are irrelevant, what I'd recommend is: Convert the date into
Unix time, divide by 86400, floor it. That'll give you a Julian-style
date number where Jan 1st 1970 is 0, Jan 2nd is 1, etc, and at the end
of a year, it'll just keep on incrementing. That would get you past
the 2020/2021 boundary pretty smoothly.

ChrisA

From PythonList at danceswithmice.info  Tue Jan  5 17:12:11 2021
From: PythonList at danceswithmice.info (dn)
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 2021 11:12:11 +1300
Subject: dayofyear is not great when going into a new year
In-Reply-To: <i5k21eFq2qnU1@mid.individual.net>
References: <i5k21eFq2qnU1@mid.individual.net>
Message-ID: <fd94f9a9-2a32-4ad9-abb1-f5a9deccb831@DancesWithMice.info>

On 1/6/21 9:55 AM, Martin Sch??n wrote:
> Hello,
> 
> I have had some Python fun with COVID-19 data. I have done
> some curve fitting and to make that easier I have transformed
> date to day of year. Come end of 2020 and beginning of 2021
> and this idea falls on its face.
> 
> There must be a better way of doing this.
> 
> I am using Pandas for reading and manipulating data coming
> from a csv file. Scipy, numpy and matplotlib are used
> for the curve fitting and plotting.


An important question is how the day/date is presented in these graphs.

The Julian date format used to be more common in Data Processing. Dates
are expressed as yy-ddd. Thus, prepending "20" or "21" to existing
day-of-year numbers, would separate and sequence correctly.
(NB carefully consider str cf int)

Another solution is to use a Unix Timestamp for each day.

In both cases, arithmetic comparison-logic is possible, and library
routines exist to format various reporting-formats.
-- 
Regards =dn

From mstemper at gmail.com  Tue Jan  5 17:46:09 2021
From: mstemper at gmail.com (Michael F. Stemper)
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 2021 16:46:09 -0600
Subject: dayofyear is not great when going into a new year
In-Reply-To: <mailman.633.1609882091.7193.python-list@python.org>
References: <i5k21eFq2qnU1@mid.individual.net>
 <CAPTjJmrB8LDCP+05D6OurRcSw3XeDg1jX17AcddCZ2CQ=zWU-w@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.633.1609882091.7193.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <rt2q7q$fap$1@dont-email.me>

On 05/01/2021 15.27, Chris Angelico wrote:
> On Wed, Jan 6, 2021 at 8:02 AM Martin Sch??n <martin.schoon at gmail.com> wrote:

>> I have had some Python fun with COVID-19 data. I have done
>> some curve fitting and to make that easier I have transformed
>> date to day of year. Come end of 2020 and beginning of 2021
>> and this idea falls on its face.

> There are multiple definitions for "day of year", depending on how you
> want to handle certain oddities. The simplest is to identify Jan 1st
> as 1, Jan 2nd as 2, etc, to Dec 31st as either 365 or 366; but some
> libraries will define the year as starting with the week that contains
> the Thursday, or something, and then will define days of year
> accordingly.
> 
> If you want an easy way to graph day-by-day data and the exact day
> numbers are irrelevant, what I'd recommend is: Convert the date into
> Unix time, divide by 86400, floor it. That'll give you a Julian-style
> date number where Jan 1st 1970 is 0, Jan 2nd is 1, etc, and at the end
> of a year, it'll just keep on incrementing. That would get you past
> the 2020/2021 boundary pretty smoothly.

Possibly better than rolling your own is using standard stuff:

 >>> from datetime import date,datetime
 >>> datetime.toordinal(date(2020,1,1))
737425
 >>> datetime.toordinal(date(2021,1,5))
737795
 >>> datetime.toordinal(date(2021,1,5)) - datetime.toordinal(date(2020,1,1))
370
 >>>

-- 
Michael F. Stemper
This post contains greater than 95% post-consumer bytes by weight.

From rosuav at gmail.com  Tue Jan  5 17:53:40 2021
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 2021 09:53:40 +1100
Subject: dayofyear is not great when going into a new year
In-Reply-To: <rt2q7q$fap$1@dont-email.me>
References: <i5k21eFq2qnU1@mid.individual.net>
 <CAPTjJmrB8LDCP+05D6OurRcSw3XeDg1jX17AcddCZ2CQ=zWU-w@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.633.1609882091.7193.python-list@python.org>
 <rt2q7q$fap$1@dont-email.me>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmqJM86oH8bgA9m8z-a+98+83uAsK+DNheUE1pWL2YHRAQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Jan 6, 2021 at 9:51 AM Michael F. Stemper <mstemper at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> On 05/01/2021 15.27, Chris Angelico wrote:
> > On Wed, Jan 6, 2021 at 8:02 AM Martin Sch??n <martin.schoon at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >> I have had some Python fun with COVID-19 data. I have done
> >> some curve fitting and to make that easier I have transformed
> >> date to day of year. Come end of 2020 and beginning of 2021
> >> and this idea falls on its face.
>
> > There are multiple definitions for "day of year", depending on how you
> > want to handle certain oddities. The simplest is to identify Jan 1st
> > as 1, Jan 2nd as 2, etc, to Dec 31st as either 365 or 366; but some
> > libraries will define the year as starting with the week that contains
> > the Thursday, or something, and then will define days of year
> > accordingly.
> >
> > If you want an easy way to graph day-by-day data and the exact day
> > numbers are irrelevant, what I'd recommend is: Convert the date into
> > Unix time, divide by 86400, floor it. That'll give you a Julian-style
> > date number where Jan 1st 1970 is 0, Jan 2nd is 1, etc, and at the end
> > of a year, it'll just keep on incrementing. That would get you past
> > the 2020/2021 boundary pretty smoothly.
>
> Possibly better than rolling your own is using standard stuff:
>
>  >>> from datetime import date,datetime
>  >>> datetime.toordinal(date(2020,1,1))
> 737425
>  >>> datetime.toordinal(date(2021,1,5))
> 737795
>  >>> datetime.toordinal(date(2021,1,5)) - datetime.toordinal(date(2020,1,1))
> 370
>  >>>
>

Oh yes. In fact, not "possibly", but "definitely" :) ALWAYS use a
library for date manipulation. But you have to know what you're doing
before you can figure out how to call on the library.

ChrisA

From * at eli.users.panix.com  Tue Jan  5 17:56:28 2021
From: * at eli.users.panix.com (Eli the Bearded)
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 2021 22:56:28 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: dayofyear is not great when going into a new year
References: <i5k21eFq2qnU1@mid.individual.net>
 <CAPTjJmrB8LDCP+05D6OurRcSw3XeDg1jX17AcddCZ2CQ=zWU-w@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.633.1609882091.7193.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <eli$2101051756@qaz.wtf>

In comp.lang.python, Chris Angelico  <rosuav at gmail.com> wrote:
> There are multiple definitions for "day of year", depending on how you
> want to handle certain oddities. The simplest is to identify Jan 1st
> as 1, Jan 2nd as 2, etc, to Dec 31st as either 365 or 366; but some
> libraries will define the year as starting with the week that contains
> the Thursday, or something, and then will define days of year
> accordingly.

That sounds like some weird off-shoot of the ISO-8601 calendar. That
document primarily concerns itself with weeks. Week 1 of a year is the
first week with a Thursday in it. The last week of a year will be either
52 or 53, and you can have things like days in January belonging to the
week of the previous year. Wikipedia gives examples:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISO_week_date

If you are operating on that, then it might indeed make sense to number
the days from YYYY-W1-1. I can't say I've ever encountered that. Since
W1-1 is always a Monday on the ISO calendar, it would have the neat
property that you could always turn day of year into day of week with a
mod operation. It would have the quirk that years are either 364 or 371
days, neither of which most people would answer when asked "How many
days are there in a year?"

I've only used ISO dates for by-week graphs, because they have the nice
property of "all weeks are seven days", so you don't get oddball weeks
screwing up your plots.

> If you want an easy way to graph day-by-day data and the exact day
> numbers are irrelevant, what I'd recommend is: Convert the date into
> Unix time, divide by 86400, floor it. That'll give you a Julian-style
> date number where Jan 1st 1970 is 0, Jan 2nd is 1, etc, and at the end
> of a year, it'll just keep on incrementing. That would get you past
> the 2020/2021 boundary pretty smoothly.

That works well. The previous suggestion using January 1st 2020 as an
epoch start is also good.

Elijah
------
also finds "week starts on Monday" to be oddball about ISO-8601

From rosuav at gmail.com  Tue Jan  5 18:04:56 2021
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 2021 10:04:56 +1100
Subject: dayofyear is not great when going into a new year
In-Reply-To: <eli$2101051756@qaz.wtf>
References: <i5k21eFq2qnU1@mid.individual.net>
 <CAPTjJmrB8LDCP+05D6OurRcSw3XeDg1jX17AcddCZ2CQ=zWU-w@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.633.1609882091.7193.python-list@python.org> <eli$2101051756@qaz.wtf>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmoUUk43ua1v8Z54JFWXUNnLoZGUoqKow6BAkcE1zXou_Q@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Jan 6, 2021 at 10:01 AM Eli the Bearded <*@eli.users.panix.com> wrote:
>
> In comp.lang.python, Chris Angelico  <rosuav at gmail.com> wrote:
> > There are multiple definitions for "day of year", depending on how you
> > want to handle certain oddities. The simplest is to identify Jan 1st
> > as 1, Jan 2nd as 2, etc, to Dec 31st as either 365 or 366; but some
> > libraries will define the year as starting with the week that contains
> > the Thursday, or something, and then will define days of year
> > accordingly.
>
> That sounds like some weird off-shoot of the ISO-8601 calendar. That
> document primarily concerns itself with weeks. Week 1 of a year is the
> first week with a Thursday in it. The last week of a year will be either
> 52 or 53, and you can have things like days in January belonging to the
> week of the previous year.

The "weird off-shoot" part is probably a result of me misremembering
things, so don't read too much into the details :) I just remember
coming across something that numbered days within a year in a way that
was consistent with the way that it numbered weeks, which would indeed
have been based on the ISO 8601 week numbering. Not 100% sure of the
exact details.

ChrisA

From mats at wichmann.us  Tue Jan  5 20:02:41 2021
From: mats at wichmann.us (Mats Wichmann)
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 2021 18:02:41 -0700
Subject: dayofyear is not great when going into a new year
In-Reply-To: <CAPTjJmoUUk43ua1v8Z54JFWXUNnLoZGUoqKow6BAkcE1zXou_Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <i5k21eFq2qnU1@mid.individual.net>
 <CAPTjJmrB8LDCP+05D6OurRcSw3XeDg1jX17AcddCZ2CQ=zWU-w@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.633.1609882091.7193.python-list@python.org> <eli$2101051756@qaz.wtf>
 <CAPTjJmoUUk43ua1v8Z54JFWXUNnLoZGUoqKow6BAkcE1zXou_Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <e7e3db07-8c61-e8a4-a54f-17f17ed1549d@wichmann.us>

On 1/5/21 4:04 PM, Chris Angelico wrote:
> On Wed, Jan 6, 2021 at 10:01 AM Eli the Bearded <*@eli.users.panix.com> wrote:
>>
>> In comp.lang.python, Chris Angelico  <rosuav at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> There are multiple definitions for "day of year", depending on how you
>>> want to handle certain oddities. The simplest is to identify Jan 1st
>>> as 1, Jan 2nd as 2, etc, to Dec 31st as either 365 or 366; but some
>>> libraries will define the year as starting with the week that contains
>>> the Thursday, or something, and then will define days of year
>>> accordingly.
>>
>> That sounds like some weird off-shoot of the ISO-8601 calendar. That
>> document primarily concerns itself with weeks. Week 1 of a year is the
>> first week with a Thursday in it. The last week of a year will be either
>> 52 or 53, and you can have things like days in January belonging to the
>> week of the previous year.
> 
> The "weird off-shoot" part is probably a result of me misremembering
> things, so don't read too much into the details :) I just remember
> coming across something that numbered days within a year in a way that
> was consistent with the way that it numbered weeks, which would indeed
> have been based on the ISO 8601 week numbering. Not 100% sure of the
> exact details.

"workweeks" has always been fun, ISO standard or not, there's been a 
variation for ages since people don't seem to always follow ISO for 
that.  I spent over a decade at a place that lived and died by their 
WorkWeek references ("due WW22" or the like would appear in every status 
report ever written, and there were zillions of those) - and it didn't 
agree with ISO on whether WW1 was the week that contained Jan 1 or 
whether it was the week that followed the previous year's last workweek. 
After all, those few days can't actually belong to two different 
workweeks, now can they?  :)

(that was not a good memory you guys brought back :) )

From * at eli.users.panix.com  Tue Jan  5 20:38:09 2021
From: * at eli.users.panix.com (Eli the Bearded)
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 2021 01:38:09 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: dayofyear is not great when going into a new year
References: <i5k21eFq2qnU1@mid.individual.net>
 <CAPTjJmoUUk43ua1v8Z54JFWXUNnLoZGUoqKow6BAkcE1zXou_Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <e7e3db07-8c61-e8a4-a54f-17f17ed1549d@wichmann.us>
 <mailman.637.1609894976.7193.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <eli$2101052038@qaz.wtf>

In comp.lang.python, Mats Wichmann  <mats at wichmann.us> wrote:
> "workweeks" has always been fun, ISO standard or not, there's been a 
> variation for ages since people don't seem to always follow ISO for 
> that.  I spent over a decade at a place that lived and died by their 
> WorkWeek references ("due WW22" or the like would appear in every status 
> report ever written, and there were zillions of those) - and it didn't 
> agree with ISO on whether WW1 was the week that contained Jan 1 or 
> whether it was the week that followed the previous year's last workweek. 
> After all, those few days can't actually belong to two different 
> workweeks, now can they?  :)

I think the ISO standard was to try to unify a bunch of inconsistent
locally defined things like that. In Gnu date(1), there are THREE
different, and sometimes the same and sometimes not, week of year
codes:

   %U     week number of year, with Sunday as first day of week (00..53)

   %V     ISO week number, with Monday as first day of week (01..53)

   %W     week number of year, with Monday as first day of week (00..53)

I don't think that is an exhaustive list of methods used, either.

(excuse the vi command ugliness; % is special to : commands in vi)

:r! date +"U: \%U; V: \%V; W: \%W"
U: 01; V: 01; W: 01

Today they all match. But not always.

:r! date --date="Jan 02 2005" +"U: \%U; V: \%V; W: \%W"
U: 01; V: 53; W: 00

> (that was not a good memory you guys brought back :) )

Oh what a tangled web we weave, when we first begin to [measure time].

Elijah
------
they all disagree for Jan 02 2022, too, but slightly differently

From Richard at Damon-Family.org  Tue Jan  5 20:46:54 2021
From: Richard at Damon-Family.org (Richard Damon)
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 2021 20:46:54 -0500
Subject: dayofyear is not great when going into a new year
In-Reply-To: <e7e3db07-8c61-e8a4-a54f-17f17ed1549d@wichmann.us>
References: <i5k21eFq2qnU1@mid.individual.net>
 <CAPTjJmrB8LDCP+05D6OurRcSw3XeDg1jX17AcddCZ2CQ=zWU-w@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.633.1609882091.7193.python-list@python.org> <eli$2101051756@qaz.wtf>
 <CAPTjJmoUUk43ua1v8Z54JFWXUNnLoZGUoqKow6BAkcE1zXou_Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <e7e3db07-8c61-e8a4-a54f-17f17ed1549d@wichmann.us>
Message-ID: <53fd9bb2-bf98-12df-e0d8-e3b1a39b793f@Damon-Family.org>

On 1/5/21 8:02 PM, Mats Wichmann wrote:
> On 1/5/21 4:04 PM, Chris Angelico wrote:
>> On Wed, Jan 6, 2021 at 10:01 AM Eli the Bearded
>> <*@eli.users.panix.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> In comp.lang.python, Chris Angelico? <rosuav at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> There are multiple definitions for "day of year", depending on how you
>>>> want to handle certain oddities. The simplest is to identify Jan 1st
>>>> as 1, Jan 2nd as 2, etc, to Dec 31st as either 365 or 366; but some
>>>> libraries will define the year as starting with the week that contains
>>>> the Thursday, or something, and then will define days of year
>>>> accordingly.
>>>
>>> That sounds like some weird off-shoot of the ISO-8601 calendar. That
>>> document primarily concerns itself with weeks. Week 1 of a year is the
>>> first week with a Thursday in it. The last week of a year will be
>>> either
>>> 52 or 53, and you can have things like days in January belonging to the
>>> week of the previous year.
>>
>> The "weird off-shoot" part is probably a result of me misremembering
>> things, so don't read too much into the details :) I just remember
>> coming across something that numbered days within a year in a way that
>> was consistent with the way that it numbered weeks, which would indeed
>> have been based on the ISO 8601 week numbering. Not 100% sure of the
>> exact details.
>
> "workweeks" has always been fun, ISO standard or not, there's been a
> variation for ages since people don't seem to always follow ISO for
> that.? I spent over a decade at a place that lived and died by their
> WorkWeek references ("due WW22" or the like would appear in every
> status report ever written, and there were zillions of those) - and it
> didn't agree with ISO on whether WW1 was the week that contained Jan 1
> or whether it was the week that followed the previous year's last
> workweek. After all, those few days can't actually belong to two
> different workweeks, now can they?? :)
>
> (that was not a good memory you guys brought back :) )

I'm reminded of a video made describing 'ISO Weeks' that was put out on
Dec 30, 2019, which was the first day of the ISO week bsed 2020, and he
ended it with a comment that if 2019 wasn't going so well, you could
always just use ISO to get an early start on 2020.

Apparently a lot of people were getting this recommended a number of
months later, and people were commenting how that line just was not
aging well. And we couldn't use that te get out of 2020, as 2020 is a
long year, and ISO 2021 didn't start until Jan 4th.

-- 
Richard Damon


From jmfmoraes at yahoo.com  Wed Jan  6 06:50:49 2021
From: jmfmoraes at yahoo.com (Joseph Milroy Felix Moraes (Moraes))
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 2021 11:50:49 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: Python 3.8.5
References: <1653769609.7728239.1609933849407.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <1653769609.7728239.1609933849407@mail.yahoo.com>

Good day,

I keep getting this error message when trying to open Python 3.8.5 on my computer windows 7 , 64 bit.

---------------------------
python.exe - System Error
---------------------------
The program can't start because api-ms-win-crt-runtime-l1-1-0.dll is missing from your computer. Try reinstalling the program to fix this problem.
---------------------------
OK?
---------------------------

kindly assist

Regards,
Milroy


From grant.b.edwards at gmail.com  Wed Jan  6 09:49:28 2021
From: grant.b.edwards at gmail.com (Grant Edwards)
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 2021 14:49:28 -0000 (UTC)
Subject: Python 3.8.5
References: <1653769609.7728239.1609933849407.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
 <1653769609.7728239.1609933849407@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <rt4iln$5o4$1@ciao.gmane.io>

On 2021-01-06, Joseph Milroy Felix Moraes (Moraes) via Python-list <python-list at python.org> wrote:
> Good day,
>
> I keep getting this error message when trying to open Python 3.8.5 on my computer windows 7 , 64 bit.
>
> ---------------------------
> python.exe - System Error
> ---------------------------
> The program can't start because api-ms-win-crt-runtime-l1-1-0.dll is missing from your computer. Try reinstalling the program to fix this problem.
> ---------------------------
> OK?
> ---------------------------
>
> kindly assist

https://www.google.com/search?q=api-ms-win-crt-runtime-l1-1-0.dll+is+missing


From rshepard at appl-ecosys.com  Wed Jan  6 13:32:58 2021
From: rshepard at appl-ecosys.com (Rich Shepard)
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 2021 10:32:58 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Tkinter menu item underline syntax
Message-ID: <alpine.LNX.2.20.2101061027020.9753@salmo.appl-ecosys.com>

My application's menu has lines like this:
         file_menu.add_command(
             label = 'New',
             command = self.callbacks['file->new', underline 0],
             accelerator = 'Ctrl+N'
         )

Python reports a syntax error when specifying the string index to underline;
it rejects both a space and an equals sign (=).

In "Modern Tkinter", page 88, the author explains,
"Underline
"While all platforms support keyboard traversal of the menubar via the arrow
keys, on Windows and X11, you can also use other keys to jump to particular
menus or menu items. The keys that trigger these jumps are indicated by an
underlined letter in the menu item?s label. If you want to add one of these
to a menu item, you can use the "underline" configuration option for the
item. The value of this option should be the index of the character you?d like
underlined (from 0 to the length of the string - 1)."

There is no example of the proper syntax and my web searches haven't found
one, either.

How do I pass a string index to the command to underline that character?

TIA,

Rich

From 2QdxY4RzWzUUiLuE at potatochowder.com  Wed Jan  6 14:08:55 2021
From: 2QdxY4RzWzUUiLuE at potatochowder.com (2QdxY4RzWzUUiLuE at potatochowder.com)
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 2021 13:08:55 -0600
Subject: Tkinter menu item underline syntax
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LNX.2.20.2101061027020.9753@salmo.appl-ecosys.com>
References: <alpine.LNX.2.20.2101061027020.9753@salmo.appl-ecosys.com>
Message-ID: <X/YKxz1rtv+IlKyC@scrozzle>

On 2021-01-06 at 10:32:58 -0800,
Rich Shepard <rshepard at appl-ecosys.com> wrote:

> My application's menu has lines like this:
>         file_menu.add_command(
>             label = 'New',
>             command = self.callbacks['file->new', underline 0],
>             accelerator = 'Ctrl+N'
>         )
> 
> Python reports a syntax error when specifying the string index to underline;
> it rejects both a space and an equals sign (=).

I'm not a TKinter expert (nor even a current user), but that line that
begins with whitespace and "command =" looks suspicious.  As far as I
can see, Python is correct to call it syntactically erroneous.

What is self.callbacks?  Is it a function, a list of functions, a list
of something else?

Did you possibly mean to use parentheses "(" and ")" instead of brackets
"[" and "]"?  Or perhaps some different punctuation between the "[" and
the "]"?

>From what I remember about TKinter, embedding Tcl/TK code inside strings
inside Python can be tricky (to say the least).

Sorry I don't have a concrete solution, just more to think about.

From rshepard at appl-ecosys.com  Wed Jan  6 14:18:15 2021
From: rshepard at appl-ecosys.com (Rich Shepard)
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 2021 11:18:15 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Tkinter menu item underline syntax [RESOLVED]
In-Reply-To: <X/YKxz1rtv+IlKyC@scrozzle>
References: <alpine.LNX.2.20.2101061027020.9753@salmo.appl-ecosys.com>
 <X/YKxz1rtv+IlKyC@scrozzle>
Message-ID: <alpine.LNX.2.20.2101061116130.9753@salmo.appl-ecosys.com>

On Wed, 6 Jan 2021, 2QdxY4RzWzUUiLuE at potatochowder.com wrote:

> I'm not a TKinter expert (nor even a current user), but that line that
> begins with whitespace and "command =" looks suspicious. As far as I can
> see, Python is correct to call it syntactically erroneous.

Yes, the line above it needed to be terminated by a comma, not \n.

I found the answer: underline is an option and options are key: value pairs.
So, the correct syntax is underline: 0.

Thanks,

Rich

From 2QdxY4RzWzUUiLuE at potatochowder.com  Wed Jan  6 15:03:50 2021
From: 2QdxY4RzWzUUiLuE at potatochowder.com (2QdxY4RzWzUUiLuE at potatochowder.com)
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 2021 14:03:50 -0600
Subject: Tkinter menu item underline syntax [RESOLVED]
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LNX.2.20.2101061116130.9753@salmo.appl-ecosys.com>
References: <alpine.LNX.2.20.2101061027020.9753@salmo.appl-ecosys.com>
 <X/YKxz1rtv+IlKyC@scrozzle>
 <alpine.LNX.2.20.2101061116130.9753@salmo.appl-ecosys.com>
Message-ID: <X/YXpl15TjvmzXIq@scrozzle>

On 2021-01-06 at 11:18:15 -0800,
Rich Shepard <rshepard at appl-ecosys.com> wrote:

> On Wed, 6 Jan 2021, 2QdxY4RzWzUUiLuE at potatochowder.com wrote:
> 
> > I'm not a TKinter expert (nor even a current user), but that line that
> > begins with whitespace and "command =" looks suspicious. As far as I can
> > see, Python is correct to call it syntactically erroneous.
> 
> Yes, the line above it needed to be terminated by a comma, not \n.
> 
> I found the answer: underline is an option and options are key: value pairs.
> So, the correct syntax is underline: 0.

Glad you found it.  :-)

For the sake of future generations who may run into this issue, can you
post the complete, correct call to file_menu.add_command?

From tjreedy at udel.edu  Wed Jan  6 15:21:06 2021
From: tjreedy at udel.edu (Terry Reedy)
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 2021 15:21:06 -0500
Subject: Tkinter menu item underline syntax
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LNX.2.20.2101061027020.9753@salmo.appl-ecosys.com>
References: <alpine.LNX.2.20.2101061027020.9753@salmo.appl-ecosys.com>
Message-ID: <rt563j$14f6$1@ciao.gmane.io>

On 1/6/2021 1:32 PM, Rich Shepard wrote:
> My application's menu has lines like this:
>  ??????? file_menu.add_command(
>  ??????????? label = 'New',
>  ??????????? command = self.callbacks['file->new', underline 0],
>  ??????????? accelerator = 'Ctrl+N'
>  ??????? )

'underline' has nothing to do with looking up the command in 
self.callbacks.  It is a keyword parameter for the add_command method, 
and is handled like all other values passed by name, and as you did for 
the other arguments

           file_menu.add_command(
               label='New',
               underline=0,
               command=self.callbacks['file->new],
               accelerator='Ctrl+N'
           )

Note: PEP 8 style is no spaces around '=' used for keyword  arguments. 
Here is an example from idlelib.editor, 978.

     menu.add_command(label=ulchars[i] + " " + file_name,
                      command=callback,
                      underline=0)


-- 
Terry Jan Reedy



From rshepard at appl-ecosys.com  Wed Jan  6 15:42:36 2021
From: rshepard at appl-ecosys.com (Rich Shepard)
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 2021 12:42:36 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Tkinter menu item underline syntax [RESOLVED]
In-Reply-To: <X/YXpl15TjvmzXIq@scrozzle>
References: <alpine.LNX.2.20.2101061027020.9753@salmo.appl-ecosys.com>
 <X/YKxz1rtv+IlKyC@scrozzle>
 <alpine.LNX.2.20.2101061116130.9753@salmo.appl-ecosys.com>
 <X/YXpl15TjvmzXIq@scrozzle>
Message-ID: <alpine.LNX.2.20.2101061240460.9753@salmo.appl-ecosys.com>

On Wed, 6 Jan 2021, 2QdxY4RzWzUUiLuE at potatochowder.com wrote:

> For the sake of future generations who may run into this issue, can you
> post the complete, correct call to file_menu.add_command?

This is the working version of the stanza I initially posted:

 	file_menu.add_command(
             label = 'New',
             command = self.callbacks['file->new', underline: 0],
             accelerator = 'Ctrl+N'
         )

The label line separated from the command with a comma. The underline option
is a key and separated from its value with a colon.

HTH,

Rich

From rosuav at gmail.com  Wed Jan  6 15:51:57 2021
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 2021 07:51:57 +1100
Subject: Tkinter menu item underline syntax [RESOLVED]
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LNX.2.20.2101061240460.9753@salmo.appl-ecosys.com>
References: <alpine.LNX.2.20.2101061027020.9753@salmo.appl-ecosys.com>
 <X/YKxz1rtv+IlKyC@scrozzle>
 <alpine.LNX.2.20.2101061116130.9753@salmo.appl-ecosys.com>
 <X/YXpl15TjvmzXIq@scrozzle>
 <alpine.LNX.2.20.2101061240460.9753@salmo.appl-ecosys.com>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmohxy+iigJOk8Z5C-OsGXGEiry+1b80zZ=QWTDCcbPwgw@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Jan 7, 2021 at 7:43 AM Rich Shepard <rshepard at appl-ecosys.com> wrote:
> This is the working version of the stanza I initially posted:
>
>         file_menu.add_command(
>              label = 'New',
>              command = self.callbacks['file->new', underline: 0],
>              accelerator = 'Ctrl+N'
>          )
>
> The label line separated from the command with a comma. The underline option
> is a key and separated from its value with a colon.
>

Are you sure that this works? It's syntactically valid, but I don't
think it means what you think it does.

ChrisA

From rshepard at appl-ecosys.com  Wed Jan  6 16:03:02 2021
From: rshepard at appl-ecosys.com (Rich Shepard)
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 2021 13:03:02 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Tkinter menu item underline syntax [RESOLVED]
In-Reply-To: <CAPTjJmohxy+iigJOk8Z5C-OsGXGEiry+1b80zZ=QWTDCcbPwgw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <alpine.LNX.2.20.2101061027020.9753@salmo.appl-ecosys.com>
 <X/YKxz1rtv+IlKyC@scrozzle>
 <alpine.LNX.2.20.2101061116130.9753@salmo.appl-ecosys.com>
 <X/YXpl15TjvmzXIq@scrozzle>
 <alpine.LNX.2.20.2101061240460.9753@salmo.appl-ecosys.com>
 <CAPTjJmohxy+iigJOk8Z5C-OsGXGEiry+1b80zZ=QWTDCcbPwgw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.LNX.2.20.2101061301370.9753@salmo.appl-ecosys.com>

On Thu, 7 Jan 2021, Chris Angelico wrote:

> Are you sure that this works? It's syntactically valid, but I don't
> think it means what you think it does.

ChrisA,

I'm always open to learning. There's no error generated ... yet the
application doesn' open so it's time to run it through pdb.

Regards,

Rich

From rosuav at gmail.com  Wed Jan  6 16:29:34 2021
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 2021 08:29:34 +1100
Subject: Tkinter menu item underline syntax [RESOLVED]
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LNX.2.20.2101061301370.9753@salmo.appl-ecosys.com>
References: <alpine.LNX.2.20.2101061027020.9753@salmo.appl-ecosys.com>
 <X/YKxz1rtv+IlKyC@scrozzle>
 <alpine.LNX.2.20.2101061116130.9753@salmo.appl-ecosys.com>
 <X/YXpl15TjvmzXIq@scrozzle>
 <alpine.LNX.2.20.2101061240460.9753@salmo.appl-ecosys.com>
 <CAPTjJmohxy+iigJOk8Z5C-OsGXGEiry+1b80zZ=QWTDCcbPwgw@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.LNX.2.20.2101061301370.9753@salmo.appl-ecosys.com>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmqjANzDAE=jDaTceO0FfsbGJ-cvX3H7iB6eja-5QphMBg@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Jan 7, 2021 at 8:04 AM Rich Shepard <rshepard at appl-ecosys.com> wrote:
>
> On Thu, 7 Jan 2021, Chris Angelico wrote:
>
> > Are you sure that this works? It's syntactically valid, but I don't
> > think it means what you think it does.
>
> ChrisA,
>
> I'm always open to learning. There's no error generated ... yet the
> application doesn' open so it's time to run it through pdb.
>

Cool. Terry had something on the subject in the other thread; I think
that's a good place to start. (I don't know much about Tkinter, this
line of code just looked odd in general Python syntax.)

ChrisA

From rshepard at appl-ecosys.com  Wed Jan  6 17:09:44 2021
From: rshepard at appl-ecosys.com (Rich Shepard)
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 2021 14:09:44 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Tkinter menu item underline syntax [RESOLVED]
In-Reply-To: <CAPTjJmqjANzDAE=jDaTceO0FfsbGJ-cvX3H7iB6eja-5QphMBg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <alpine.LNX.2.20.2101061027020.9753@salmo.appl-ecosys.com>
 <X/YKxz1rtv+IlKyC@scrozzle>
 <alpine.LNX.2.20.2101061116130.9753@salmo.appl-ecosys.com>
 <X/YXpl15TjvmzXIq@scrozzle>
 <alpine.LNX.2.20.2101061240460.9753@salmo.appl-ecosys.com>
 <CAPTjJmohxy+iigJOk8Z5C-OsGXGEiry+1b80zZ=QWTDCcbPwgw@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.LNX.2.20.2101061301370.9753@salmo.appl-ecosys.com>
 <CAPTjJmqjANzDAE=jDaTceO0FfsbGJ-cvX3H7iB6eja-5QphMBg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.LNX.2.20.2101061407500.9753@salmo.appl-ecosys.com>

On Thu, 7 Jan 2021, Chris Angelico wrote:

> Cool. Terry had something on the subject in the other thread; I think
> that's a good place to start. (I don't know much about Tkinter, this line
> of code just looked odd in general Python syntax.)

ChrisA,

It's been a long time since I wrote any Python code. Assignments have spaces
surrounding equal signs while values to options don't. I think I have the
code cleaned now.

Regards,

Rich

From grant.b.edwards at gmail.com  Wed Jan  6 16:03:58 2021
From: grant.b.edwards at gmail.com (Grant Edwards)
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 2021 21:03:58 -0000 (UTC)
Subject: Tkinter menu item underline syntax [RESOLVED]
References: <alpine.LNX.2.20.2101061027020.9753@salmo.appl-ecosys.com>
 <X/YKxz1rtv+IlKyC@scrozzle>
 <alpine.LNX.2.20.2101061116130.9753@salmo.appl-ecosys.com>
 <X/YXpl15TjvmzXIq@scrozzle>
 <alpine.LNX.2.20.2101061240460.9753@salmo.appl-ecosys.com>
Message-ID: <rt58ju$dbs$1@ciao.gmane.io>

On 2021-01-06, Rich Shepard <rshepard at appl-ecosys.com> wrote:
> On Wed, 6 Jan 2021, 2QdxY4RzWzUUiLuE at potatochowder.com wrote:
>
>> For the sake of future generations who may run into this issue, can you
>> post the complete, correct call to file_menu.add_command?
>
> This is the working version of the stanza I initially posted:
>
>  	file_menu.add_command(
>              label = 'New',
>              command = self.callbacks['file->new', underline: 0],
>              accelerator = 'Ctrl+N'
>          )

I'm completely baffled by that. Can somebody explain how this
expression is evaluated?

   self.callbacks['file->new', underline: 0]

It appears that the dict callbacks is being accessed with the key of 
a tuple comprising a string and a slice.

Huh?


From tjreedy at udel.edu  Wed Jan  6 16:17:55 2021
From: tjreedy at udel.edu (Terry Reedy)
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 2021 16:17:55 -0500
Subject: Tkinter menu item underline syntax [RESOLVED]
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LNX.2.20.2101061301370.9753@salmo.appl-ecosys.com>
References: <alpine.LNX.2.20.2101061027020.9753@salmo.appl-ecosys.com>
 <X/YKxz1rtv+IlKyC@scrozzle>
 <alpine.LNX.2.20.2101061116130.9753@salmo.appl-ecosys.com>
 <X/YXpl15TjvmzXIq@scrozzle>
 <alpine.LNX.2.20.2101061240460.9753@salmo.appl-ecosys.com>
 <CAPTjJmohxy+iigJOk8Z5C-OsGXGEiry+1b80zZ=QWTDCcbPwgw@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.LNX.2.20.2101061301370.9753@salmo.appl-ecosys.com>
Message-ID: <rt59e4$12qi$1@ciao.gmane.io>

On 1/6/2021 4:03 PM, Rich Shepard wrote:
> On Thu, 7 Jan 2021, Chris Angelico wrote:
> 
>> Are you sure that this works? It's syntactically valid, but I don't
>> think it means what you think it does.
> 
> ChrisA,
> 
> I'm always open to learning. There's no error generated ... yet the
> application doesn' open so it's time to run it through pdb.

See my response, sent an hour ago, for how to use 'underline.


-- 
Terry Jan Reedy


From rosuav at gmail.com  Wed Jan  6 17:27:49 2021
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 2021 09:27:49 +1100
Subject: Tkinter menu item underline syntax [RESOLVED]
In-Reply-To: <rt58ju$dbs$1@ciao.gmane.io>
References: <alpine.LNX.2.20.2101061027020.9753@salmo.appl-ecosys.com>
 <X/YKxz1rtv+IlKyC@scrozzle>
 <alpine.LNX.2.20.2101061116130.9753@salmo.appl-ecosys.com>
 <X/YXpl15TjvmzXIq@scrozzle>
 <alpine.LNX.2.20.2101061240460.9753@salmo.appl-ecosys.com>
 <rt58ju$dbs$1@ciao.gmane.io>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmqKXwPNJq+MwKvMQFJyJbQ_2m6-gM_CFnFP+FV6ri3EDg@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Jan 7, 2021 at 9:22 AM Grant Edwards <grant.b.edwards at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> On 2021-01-06, Rich Shepard <rshepard at appl-ecosys.com> wrote:
> > On Wed, 6 Jan 2021, 2QdxY4RzWzUUiLuE at potatochowder.com wrote:
> >
> >> For the sake of future generations who may run into this issue, can you
> >> post the complete, correct call to file_menu.add_command?
> >
> > This is the working version of the stanza I initially posted:
> >
> >       file_menu.add_command(
> >              label = 'New',
> >              command = self.callbacks['file->new', underline: 0],
> >              accelerator = 'Ctrl+N'
> >          )
>
> I'm completely baffled by that. Can somebody explain how this
> expression is evaluated?
>
>    self.callbacks['file->new', underline: 0]
>
> It appears that the dict callbacks is being accessed with the key of
> a tuple comprising a string and a slice.
>

Heh, you had to try it to make sure it was valid? Me too. Here's how
it's parsed:

self.callbacks[ # this bit's non-controversial
    'file->new' # string literal
    , # make tuple
    underline: 0 # slice(underline, 0, None)
]

So it takes the name "underline", whatever that is, and it assumes you
want a slice from underline to zero. That's all the second dimension
of the indexing, where the first is a simple string literal.

ChrisA

From p_d_a_s_i_l_v_a_ns at nonetnoaddress.pt  Thu Jan  7 02:29:46 2021
From: p_d_a_s_i_l_v_a_ns at nonetnoaddress.pt (Paulo da Silva)
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 2021 07:29:46 +0000
Subject: Class and tkinter problem
Message-ID: <rt6d9a$df3$1@gioia.aioe.org>

Hi!

Does anybody know why cmd method isn't called when I change the button
state (clicking on it) in this example?
I know that this seems a weird class use. But why doesn't it work?
Thanks.

class C:
    from tkinter import Checkbutton
    import tkinter

    @staticmethod
    def cmd():
        print("Test")

    top=tkinter.Tk()
    cb=Checkbutton(command=cmd)
    cb.pack()

    @staticmethod
    def loop():
        C.top.mainloop()

c=C()
c.loop()

From auriocus at gmx.de  Thu Jan  7 02:42:34 2021
From: auriocus at gmx.de (Christian Gollwitzer)
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 2021 08:42:34 +0100
Subject: Class and tkinter problem
In-Reply-To: <rt6d9a$df3$1@gioia.aioe.org>
References: <rt6d9a$df3$1@gioia.aioe.org>
Message-ID: <rt6e1b$r8o$1@dont-email.me>

Am 07.01.21 um 08:29 schrieb Paulo da Silva:

> Does anybody know why cmd method isn't called when I change the button
> state (clicking on it) in this example?
> I know that this seems a weird class use. But why doesn't it work?
> Thanks.
> 
> class C:
>      from tkinter import Checkbutton
>      import tkinter
> 
>      @staticmethod
^^it works if you remove the staticmethod here

>      def cmd():
>          print("Test")
> 

Maybe there is a bug in tkinter, that it doesn't work with static methods?

	Christian

From Bischoop at vimart.net  Thu Jan  7 04:44:13 2021
From: Bischoop at vimart.net (Bischoop)
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 2021 09:44:13 -0000 (UTC)
Subject: primitive password cracker
Message-ID: <slrnrvdlvd.37n.Bischoop@vimart.net>


I was practising for educational purpose with simply password cracker.
I know that I could use itertool but in my case when I'm learning I
would miss facing problems and learning on them and indeed I've met one
which is not giving me a peace.

What I want to learn is if I need get for example four combinations, so
how to get in a loop first letter 'a',then another step'a' and again 'a'
and 'a', to have 'aaaa' later on'abaa' etc.

So I wrote that:
------------------------------------------
import string
passe = 'zulu'
mylist = []
#letters = string.ascii_lowercase
letters = ['a','b', 'c', 'd', 'e', 'f', 'g', 'h', 'i', 'j', 'k', 'l', 'm', 'n', 'o', 'p', 'r', 's', 't', 'u', 'w', 'q', 'y', 'z']
mineset= set()
for a in letters:
    for b in letters:
        for c in letters:
            for d in letters:
                s = a + b + c + b
                mylist.append(s)
mineset=set(mylist)

k = sorted(mineset)
print(k)
for i in k:
    if i == passe:
        print('got it: ', i )
print(passe in k)
--------------------------------------
It works in someway but the problems are:
Not all combination are made, I change password to: 'pass' and that combination is not in results.
Another thing is, I had to made a set from list because combinations
were repeated.
And finally, I was struglling with making it in without creating four
loops for four letters, something like that:

To try to solve those I went with that approach:

-------------
letters = ['a','b', 'c', 'd', 'e', 'f', 'g', 'h', 'i', 'j', 'k', 'l', 'm', 'n', 'o', 'p', 'r', 's', 't', 'u', 'w', 'q', 'y', 'z']
password = 'pass'
combin = ''
lista=[]

for x in range(4):
    for y in letters:
        combin +=y
        lista.append(combin)
    combin=''
mineset=set(lista)
print(mineset)
for i in lista:
    if i == password:
        print('pass:', i)
-------------------
But the results are disspainting:
{'abc', 'a', 'ab', 'abcd', 'abcde'}

I was seating on it for a long day but can't even closely achieve
similar effect to 4 loops in previous code.

--
Thanks

From __peter__ at web.de  Thu Jan  7 05:26:56 2021
From: __peter__ at web.de (Peter Otten)
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 2021 11:26:56 +0100
Subject: Tkinter menu item underline syntax [RESOLVED]
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LNX.2.20.2101061301370.9753@salmo.appl-ecosys.com>
References: <alpine.LNX.2.20.2101061027020.9753@salmo.appl-ecosys.com>
 <X/YKxz1rtv+IlKyC@scrozzle>
 <alpine.LNX.2.20.2101061116130.9753@salmo.appl-ecosys.com>
 <X/YXpl15TjvmzXIq@scrozzle>
 <alpine.LNX.2.20.2101061240460.9753@salmo.appl-ecosys.com>
 <CAPTjJmohxy+iigJOk8Z5C-OsGXGEiry+1b80zZ=QWTDCcbPwgw@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.LNX.2.20.2101061301370.9753@salmo.appl-ecosys.com>
Message-ID: <cda02fc7-a67d-6fba-d6be-f1d3768ba7c9@web.de>

On 06/01/2021 22:03, Rich Shepard wrote:
> On Thu, 7 Jan 2021, Chris Angelico wrote:
> 
>> Are you sure that this works? It's syntactically valid, but I don't
>> think it means what you think it does.
> 
> ChrisA,
> 
> I'm always open to learning. There's no error generated ... yet the
> application doesn' open so it's time to run it through pdb.

Spoiler: unless the name 'underline' is defined you get a NameError:

NameError: name 'underline' is not defined

If it is defined and self.callbacks is a dict you get a TypeError:

TypeError: unhashable type: 'slice'

because that's what a colon means in a context like

x[a:b]

 From what you posted I would guess that underline is most likely a 
keyword argument to the add_command() method:

file_menu.add_command(
     label='New',
     command=self.callbacks['file->new'],
     underline=0,
     accelerator='Ctrl+N'
)


From __peter__ at web.de  Thu Jan  7 05:36:51 2021
From: __peter__ at web.de (Peter Otten)
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 2021 11:36:51 +0100
Subject: Tkinter menu item underline syntax [RESOLVED]
In-Reply-To: <rt58ju$dbs$1@ciao.gmane.io>
References: <alpine.LNX.2.20.2101061027020.9753@salmo.appl-ecosys.com>
 <X/YKxz1rtv+IlKyC@scrozzle>
 <alpine.LNX.2.20.2101061116130.9753@salmo.appl-ecosys.com>
 <X/YXpl15TjvmzXIq@scrozzle>
 <alpine.LNX.2.20.2101061240460.9753@salmo.appl-ecosys.com>
 <rt58ju$dbs$1@ciao.gmane.io>
Message-ID: <acee9251-6731-2d80-e680-66b17572edab@web.de>

On 06/01/2021 22:03, Grant Edwards wrote:

> I'm completely baffled by that. Can somebody explain how this
> expression is evaluated?
> 
>     self.callbacks['file->new', underline: 0]
> 
> It appears that the dict callbacks is being accessed with the key of
> a tuple comprising a string and a slice.
> 
> Huh?

You're completely right:

 >>> class C:
	def __getitem__(self, index): return index

	
 >>> c = C()
 >>> underline = 42
 >>> c["foo", underline: 0]
('foo', slice(42, 0, None))

The OP's code will most certainly fail at runtime ;)




From rosuav at gmail.com  Thu Jan  7 06:56:58 2021
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 2021 22:56:58 +1100
Subject: primitive password cracker
In-Reply-To: <slrnrvdlvd.37n.Bischoop@vimart.net>
References: <slrnrvdlvd.37n.Bischoop@vimart.net>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmrtJ66X-a3_93VHcBfi1o=7PRNm99LPBfA0djxhSjiypQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Jan 7, 2021 at 8:46 PM Bischoop <Bischoop at vimart.net> wrote:
> What I want to learn is if I need get for example four combinations, so
> how to get in a loop first letter 'a',then another step'a' and again 'a'
> and 'a', to have 'aaaa' later on'abaa' etc.

So you want every possible four-letter combination?

> So I wrote that:
> ------------------------------------------
> import string
> passe = 'zulu'
> mylist = []
> #letters = string.ascii_lowercase
> letters = ['a','b', 'c', 'd', 'e', 'f', 'g', 'h', 'i', 'j', 'k', 'l', 'm', 'n', 'o', 'p', 'r', 's', 't', 'u', 'w', 'q', 'y', 'z']

I'd recommend having just a string, rather than a list; it'll behave
identically for what you're doing, and it'll be a lot easier to see
when you have all the right letters.

I'd also recommend having the letters in some well-known order, such
as lexicographic (aka "alphabetical order"), or running straight
across the rows of your keyboard. Keyboards aren't all the same, but
at least you'll know that your own keyboard is consistent.

> mineset= set()
> for a in letters:
>     for b in letters:
>         for c in letters:
>             for d in letters:
>                 s = a + b + c + b

Why is b at the end? :) That's why "zulu" could be found, but "pass" couldn't.

> k = sorted(mineset)
> print(k)
> for i in k:
>     if i == passe:
>         print('got it: ', i )
> print(passe in k)
> --------------------------------------
> It works in someway but the problems are:
> Not all combination are made, I change password to: 'pass' and that combination is not in results.
> Another thing is, I had to made a set from list because combinations
> were repeated.

Yep. I'd recommend looking at the original list rather than setting
and sorting, and you might notice patterns that hint at problems.

> for x in range(4):
>     for y in letters:
>         combin +=y
>         lista.append(combin)
>     combin=''

Not entirely sure what your intended logic is here, but I'd advise
planning things out in pseudocode and knowing what you're actually
building.

Debugging code can be very hard, especially if you don't know what
it's doing. Fortunately, Python comes with a number of tools to help
you figure out your code; the simplest is the print function - just
add a few useful print calls to your code and trace through things
that way. You can also look at the pdb module, and various other
techniques. Explore your code, get to know how it works at each point,
and you should be able to figure things out.

Good luck, have fun! And remember IIDPIO: If In Doubt, Print It Out!

ChrisA

From mal at europython.eu  Thu Jan  7 06:51:36 2021
From: mal at europython.eu (M.-A. Lemburg)
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 2021 12:51:36 +0100
Subject: EuroPython 2021: Format Poll
Message-ID: <91973040-dce1-3434-ddc0-3bc20d057935@europython.eu>

We are currently working out the format for this year?s online
EuroPython conference. The conference will be run using online
conference tools during the week of July 26 - August 1 and we would like
to learn about your preferences regarding the overall structure.

For this reason, we?re running a poll to gather input from our
(potential) attendees:

                * EuroPython 2021 Format Poll *

              https://forms.gle/V4oPEXWiexfVyH1S7


Please add any comments you may have to the comment field. We?d love to
hear about new online conference platforms you may have seen (last year,
we used Zoom and Discord), suggestions on social event formats, etc.


Help spread the word
--------------------

Please help us spread this message by sharing it on your social
networks as widely as possible. Thank you !

Link to the blog post:

https://blog.europython.eu/post/639651925251571712/europython-2021-format-poll

Tweet:

https://twitter.com/europython/status/1347146647403450370

Thanks,
--
EuroPython 2021 Team
https://www.europython-society.org/


From rshepard at appl-ecosys.com  Thu Jan  7 08:32:37 2021
From: rshepard at appl-ecosys.com (Rich Shepard)
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 2021 05:32:37 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Tkinter menu item underline syntax [RESOLVED]
In-Reply-To: <cda02fc7-a67d-6fba-d6be-f1d3768ba7c9@web.de>
References: <alpine.LNX.2.20.2101061027020.9753@salmo.appl-ecosys.com>
 <X/YKxz1rtv+IlKyC@scrozzle>
 <alpine.LNX.2.20.2101061116130.9753@salmo.appl-ecosys.com>
 <X/YXpl15TjvmzXIq@scrozzle>
 <alpine.LNX.2.20.2101061240460.9753@salmo.appl-ecosys.com>
 <CAPTjJmohxy+iigJOk8Z5C-OsGXGEiry+1b80zZ=QWTDCcbPwgw@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.LNX.2.20.2101061301370.9753@salmo.appl-ecosys.com>
 <cda02fc7-a67d-6fba-d6be-f1d3768ba7c9@web.de>
Message-ID: <alpine.LNX.2.20.2101070531400.3214@salmo.appl-ecosys.com>

On Thu, 7 Jan 2021, Peter Otten wrote:

> Spoiler: unless the name 'underline' is defined you get a NameError:
> NameError: name 'underline' is not defined
> If it is defined and self.callbacks is a dict you get a TypeError:
> TypeError: unhashable type: 'slice'
> because that's what a colon means in a context like
> x[a:b]

The template I used for the menu doesn't scale to my application so I'm
re-writing it from scratch.

Thanks, all,

Rich

From Bischoop at vimart.net  Thu Jan  7 09:05:51 2021
From: Bischoop at vimart.net (Bischoop)
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 2021 14:05:51 -0000 (UTC)
Subject: primitive password cracker
References: <slrnrvdlvd.37n.Bischoop@vimart.net>
 <CAPTjJmrtJ66X-a3_93VHcBfi1o=7PRNm99LPBfA0djxhSjiypQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.656.1610020631.7193.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <slrnrve59v.5gp.Bischoop@vimart.net>

On 2021-01-07, Chris Angelico <rosuav at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I'd recommend having just a string, rather than a list; it'll behave
> identically for what you're doing, and it'll be a lot easier to see
> when you have all the right letters.
>

Yes that's definitely better, I've done so.
>> mineset= set()
>> for a in letters:
>>     for b in letters:
>>         for c in letters:
>>             for d in letters:
>>                 s = a + b + c + b
>
> Why is b at the end? :) That's why "zulu" could be found, but "pass" couldn't.
>

ha, that's typo I was working so long on it that got mixed up.
and yes with 'd' it works :-)

>> k = sorted(mineset)
>> print(k)
>> for i in k:
>>     if i == passe:
>>         print('got it: ', i )
>> print(passe in k)
>> --------------------------------------
>> It works in someway but the problems are:
>> Not all combination are made, I change password to: 'pass' and that combination is not in results.
>> Another thing is, I had to made a set from list because combinations
>> were repeated.
>
> Yep. I'd recommend looking at the original list rather than setting
> and sorting, and you might notice patterns that hint at problems.
>
The problem was with that 'b' at the end, now it solved.


>> for x in range(4):          
>>     for y in letters:
>>         combin +=y
>>         lista.append(combin)
>>     combin=''
>
> Not entirely sure what your intended logic is here, but I'd advise
> planning things out in pseudocode and knowing what you're actually
> building.
>
Well :-) I tried to do shorter version of the previous code to do not do
for loop for every character, range
supposed to be for how long the password is, in this case four
characters, once the 4character combination is made add it to the list,
similarly to the previous code but.... my logic is wrong here.
I don't have clue hot to tell: get a letter for 1 get for 2 get for 3
and get for 4.




> Debugging code can be very hard, especially if you don't know what
> it's doing. Fortunately, Python comes with a number of tools to help
> you figure out your code; the simplest is the print function - just
> add a few useful print calls to your code and trace through things
> that way. You can also look at the pdb module, and various other
> techniques. Explore your code, get to know how it works at each point,
> and you should be able to figure things out.
>
> Good luck, have fun! And remember IIDPIO: If In Doubt, Print It Out!
>

For me is even not debbuging code is important but to do
what I want and in that case is that what I mention earlier four
letters picked and add them to the list, and today again I seat on it
and just nothing lol.

--
Thanks

From tjreedy at udel.edu  Wed Jan  6 20:44:45 2021
From: tjreedy at udel.edu (Terry Reedy)
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 2021 20:44:45 -0500
Subject: Tkinter menu item underline syntax [RESOLVED]
In-Reply-To: <rt59e4$12qi$1@ciao.gmane.io>
References: <alpine.LNX.2.20.2101061027020.9753@salmo.appl-ecosys.com>
 <X/YKxz1rtv+IlKyC@scrozzle>
 <alpine.LNX.2.20.2101061116130.9753@salmo.appl-ecosys.com>
 <X/YXpl15TjvmzXIq@scrozzle>
 <alpine.LNX.2.20.2101061240460.9753@salmo.appl-ecosys.com>
 <CAPTjJmohxy+iigJOk8Z5C-OsGXGEiry+1b80zZ=QWTDCcbPwgw@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.LNX.2.20.2101061301370.9753@salmo.appl-ecosys.com>
 <rt59e4$12qi$1@ciao.gmane.io>
Message-ID: <rt5p2d$euv$1@ciao.gmane.io>

On 1/6/2021 4:17 PM, Terry Reedy wrote:
> On 1/6/2021 4:03 PM, Rich Shepard wrote:
>> On Thu, 7 Jan 2021, Chris Angelico wrote:
>>
>>> Are you sure that this works? It's syntactically valid, but I don't
>>> think it means what you think it does.
>>
>> ChrisA,
>>
>> I'm always open to learning. There's no error generated ... yet the
>> application doesn' open so it's time to run it through pdb.
> 
> See my response, sent an hour ago, for how to use 'underline.

Reposting:

'underline' has nothing to do with looking up the command in 
self.callbacks.  It is a keyword parameter for the add_command method, 
and is handled like all other values passed by name, and as you did for 
the other arguments

           file_menu.add_command(
               label='New',
               underline=0,
               command=self.callbacks['file->new],
               accelerator='Ctrl+N'
           )

Note: PEP 8 style is no spaces around '=' used for keyword  arguments. 
Here is an example from idlelib.editor, 978.

     menu.add_command(label=ulchars[i] + " " + file_name,
                      command=callback,
                      underline=0)




-- 
Terry Jan Reedy


From tjreedy at udel.edu  Thu Jan  7 04:20:53 2021
From: tjreedy at udel.edu (Terry Reedy)
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 2021 04:20:53 -0500
Subject: Class and tkinter problem
In-Reply-To: <rt6e1b$r8o$1@dont-email.me>
References: <rt6d9a$df3$1@gioia.aioe.org> <rt6e1b$r8o$1@dont-email.me>
Message-ID: <rt6jpn$67h$1@ciao.gmane.io>

On 1/7/2021 2:42 AM, Christian Gollwitzer wrote:
> Am 07.01.21 um 08:29 schrieb Paulo da Silva:
> 
>> Does anybody know why cmd method isn't called when I change the button
>> state (clicking on it) in this example?
>> I know that this seems a weird class use. But why doesn't it work?
>> Thanks.
>>
>> class C:
>> ???? from tkinter import Checkbutton
>> ???? import tkinter
>>
>> ???? @staticmethod
> ^^it works if you remove the staticmethod here

staticmethods are essentially useless in Python.  What little was gained 
by their addition is partly offset by the introduced confusion.

I am not sure is removing @staticmethod would have been sufficient in 2.x.

>> ???? def cmd():
>> ???????? print("Test")
>>

     top=tkinter.Tk()
     cb=Checkbutton(command=cmd)
     cb.pack()

Button commands have to be tcl functions.  Tkinter wraps Python 
functions as tcl function.  Static methods also wrap python functions, 
as a .__func__ attribute.  So the code if one passes cmd.__func__.

> Maybe there is a bug in tkinter, that it doesn't work with static methods?

One could propose that tkinter test whether callables are staticmethods 
and unwrap them when they are.

Classmethods also do not work as is.  By experiment, the following works.
     cb=Checkbutton(command=lambda: C.cmd.__func__(C))
But if the class were nested, it would be more complicated.

-- 
Terry Jan Reedy



From dario962004toywind at gmail.com  Thu Jan  7 04:44:00 2021
From: dario962004toywind at gmail.com (Dario Dario)
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 2021 15:14:00 +0530
Subject: Some problem in code execution in python
Message-ID: <CAHbreNU21kgSRKrrpOwyo_G07i0UToRHuw9XpJ7PWUp1N6ye4A@mail.gmail.com>

Sir, I am one of the user of your python program, that is after completion
of installation I got some statement like "you got code execution problem
". I don't know how to rectify this problem.so please help me to rectify
this problem .
You send me the solution in this email ID itself .

From Bischoop at vimart.net  Thu Jan  7 09:09:04 2021
From: Bischoop at vimart.net (Bischoop)
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 2021 14:09:04 -0000 (UTC)
Subject: primitive password cracker
References: <slrnrvdlvd.37n.Bischoop@vimart.net>
 <CAPTjJmrtJ66X-a3_93VHcBfi1o=7PRNm99LPBfA0djxhSjiypQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.656.1610020631.7193.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <slrnrve5g0.5gp.Bischoop@vimart.net>

On 2021-01-07, Chris Angelico <rosuav at gmail.com> wrote:

This could allow easy to change the number of  characters in
combination, just pass n argument to range where n is how many characters.



From David.Raymond at tomtom.com  Thu Jan  7 10:18:15 2021
From: David.Raymond at tomtom.com (David Raymond)
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 2021 15:18:15 +0000
Subject: primitive password cracker
In-Reply-To: <slrnrve59v.5gp.Bischoop@vimart.net>
References: <slrnrvdlvd.37n.Bischoop@vimart.net>
 <CAPTjJmrtJ66X-a3_93VHcBfi1o=7PRNm99LPBfA0djxhSjiypQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.656.1610020631.7193.python-list@python.org>
 <slrnrve59v.5gp.Bischoop@vimart.net>
Message-ID: <AM5PR0701MB2740EB4E908B03F5FA00B7B787AF0@AM5PR0701MB2740.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com>

I think you might want to check out itertools.product()
https://docs.python.org/3.9/library/itertools.html#itertools.product

import itertools
import string
passe = 'pass'
for p in itertools.product(string.ascii_lowercase, repeat = 4):
    p = "".join(p)
    if p == passe:
        print("Found it:", p)
        break
else:
    print("Didn't find it.")

Or for different lengths:

foundIt = False
for repeat in range(1, 6):
    for p in itertools.product(string.ascii_lowercase, repeat = repeat):
        p = "".join(p)
        if p == passe:
            print("Found it:", p)
            foundIt = True
            break
    if foundIt:
        break
else:
    print("Didn't find it.")

From rosuav at gmail.com  Thu Jan  7 10:25:30 2021
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 2021 02:25:30 +1100
Subject: primitive password cracker
In-Reply-To: <slrnrve5g0.5gp.Bischoop@vimart.net>
References: <slrnrvdlvd.37n.Bischoop@vimart.net>
 <CAPTjJmrtJ66X-a3_93VHcBfi1o=7PRNm99LPBfA0djxhSjiypQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.656.1610020631.7193.python-list@python.org>
 <slrnrve5g0.5gp.Bischoop@vimart.net>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmpMY-kP3NmBQrJLXwB_F0wFnmExCC50n9H2uOfquAk0WA@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Jan 8, 2021 at 2:12 AM Bischoop <Bischoop at vimart.net> wrote:
>
> On 2021-01-07, Chris Angelico <rosuav at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> This could allow easy to change the number of  characters in
> combination, just pass n argument to range where n is how many characters.
>

True. Unfortunately, it doesn't work, so what you'd have is something
that can be easily parameterized to not work on other numbers of
characters too. :)

ChrisA

From rshepard at appl-ecosys.com  Thu Jan  7 10:56:07 2021
From: rshepard at appl-ecosys.com (Rich Shepard)
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 2021 07:56:07 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Tkinter menu item underline syntax [RESOLVED]
In-Reply-To: <rt5p2d$euv$1@ciao.gmane.io>
References: <alpine.LNX.2.20.2101061027020.9753@salmo.appl-ecosys.com>
 <X/YKxz1rtv+IlKyC@scrozzle>
 <alpine.LNX.2.20.2101061116130.9753@salmo.appl-ecosys.com>
 <X/YXpl15TjvmzXIq@scrozzle>
 <alpine.LNX.2.20.2101061240460.9753@salmo.appl-ecosys.com>
 <CAPTjJmohxy+iigJOk8Z5C-OsGXGEiry+1b80zZ=QWTDCcbPwgw@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.LNX.2.20.2101061301370.9753@salmo.appl-ecosys.com>
 <rt59e4$12qi$1@ciao.gmane.io> <rt5p2d$euv$1@ciao.gmane.io>
Message-ID: <alpine.LNX.2.20.2101070755350.3214@salmo.appl-ecosys.com>

On Wed, 6 Jan 2021, Terry Reedy wrote:

> 'underline' has nothing to do with looking up the command in
> self.callbacks. It is a keyword parameter for the add_command method, and
> is handled like all other values passed by name, and as you did for the
> other arguments
>
>          file_menu.add_command(
>              label='New',
>              underline=0,
>              command=self.callbacks['file->new],
>              accelerator='Ctrl+N'
>          )
>
> Note: PEP 8 style is no spaces around '=' used for keyword  arguments. Here 
> is an example from idlelib.editor, 978.
>
>    menu.add_command(label=ulchars[i] + " " + file_name,
>                     command=callback,
>                     underline=0)

Thank you for the clarification.

Rich

From __peter__ at web.de  Thu Jan  7 11:02:21 2021
From: __peter__ at web.de (Peter Otten)
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 2021 17:02:21 +0100
Subject: Class and tkinter problem
In-Reply-To: <rt6e1b$r8o$1@dont-email.me>
References: <rt6d9a$df3$1@gioia.aioe.org> <rt6e1b$r8o$1@dont-email.me>
Message-ID: <3325a90f-58c5-3ad8-277b-8aeb7a7c3f34@web.de>

On 07/01/2021 08:42, Christian Gollwitzer wrote:
> Am 07.01.21 um 08:29 schrieb Paulo da Silva:
>
>> Does anybody know why cmd method isn't called when I change the button
>> state (clicking on it) in this example?
>> I know that this seems a weird class use. But why doesn't it work?
>> Thanks.
>>
>> class C:
>> ???? from tkinter import Checkbutton
>> ???? import tkinter
>>
>> ???? @staticmethod
> ^^it works if you remove the staticmethod here
>
>> ???? def cmd():
>> ???????? print("Test")
>>
>
> Maybe there is a bug in tkinter, that it doesn't work with static methods?

It has nothing to do with tkinter, a staticmethod object cannot be
called directly:

 >>> class C:
	@staticmethod
	def cmd(): print("Hello")
	cmd()


Traceback (most recent call last):
   File "<pyshell#28>", line 1, in <module>
     class C:
   File "<pyshell#28>", line 4, in C
     cmd()
TypeError: 'staticmethod' object is not callable

You have to go through the descriptor protocol:

 >>> class C:
	@staticmethod
	def cmd(): print("Hello")


 >>> C.cmd()
Hello

I recommend that the OP use a more conventional stye and do the setup
outside the class or, better, in an instance of the class.


From __peter__ at web.de  Thu Jan  7 11:02:21 2021
From: __peter__ at web.de (Peter Otten)
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 2021 17:02:21 +0100
Subject: Class and tkinter problem
In-Reply-To: <rt6e1b$r8o$1@dont-email.me>
References: <rt6d9a$df3$1@gioia.aioe.org> <rt6e1b$r8o$1@dont-email.me>
Message-ID: <3325a90f-58c5-3ad8-277b-8aeb7a7c3f34@web.de>

On 07/01/2021 08:42, Christian Gollwitzer wrote:
> Am 07.01.21 um 08:29 schrieb Paulo da Silva:
> 
>> Does anybody know why cmd method isn't called when I change the button
>> state (clicking on it) in this example?
>> I know that this seems a weird class use. But why doesn't it work?
>> Thanks.
>>
>> class C:
>> ???? from tkinter import Checkbutton
>> ???? import tkinter
>>
>> ???? @staticmethod
> ^^it works if you remove the staticmethod here
> 
>> ???? def cmd():
>> ???????? print("Test")
>>
> 
> Maybe there is a bug in tkinter, that it doesn't work with static methods?

It has nothing to do with tkinter, a staticmethod object cannot be 
called directly:

 >>> class C:
	@staticmethod
	def cmd(): print("Hello")
	cmd()

	
Traceback (most recent call last):
   File "<pyshell#28>", line 1, in <module>
     class C:
   File "<pyshell#28>", line 4, in C
     cmd()
TypeError: 'staticmethod' object is not callable

You have to go through the descriptor protocol:

 >>> class C:
	@staticmethod
	def cmd(): print("Hello")

	
 >>> C.cmd()
Hello

I recommend that the OP use a more conventional stye and do the setup 
outside the class or, better, in an instance of the class.



From DomainAdmin at DancesWithMice.info  Thu Jan  7 11:57:20 2021
From: DomainAdmin at DancesWithMice.info (David L Neil)
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 2021 05:57:20 +1300
Subject: Some problem in code execution in python
In-Reply-To: <CAHbreNU21kgSRKrrpOwyo_G07i0UToRHuw9XpJ7PWUp1N6ye4A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAHbreNU21kgSRKrrpOwyo_G07i0UToRHuw9XpJ7PWUp1N6ye4A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <aec33f0e-9280-294f-0a71-a7d4eb9535af@DancesWithMice.info>

On 07/01/2021 22.44, Dario Dario wrote:
> Sir, I am one of the user of your python program, that is after completion
> of installation I got some statement like "you got code execution problem
> ". I don't know how to rectify this problem.so please help me to rectify
> this problem .
> You send me the solution in this email ID itself .


Welcome to the list, where Python users help each other.

Please send more information:
- which Operating System
- which version of Python
- from where Python was downloaded
- copy-paste all of the error messages
-- 
Regards =dn

From Bischoop at vimart.net  Thu Jan  7 11:55:37 2021
From: Bischoop at vimart.net (Bischoop)
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 2021 16:55:37 -0000 (UTC)
Subject: Some problem in code execution in python
References: <CAHbreNU21kgSRKrrpOwyo_G07i0UToRHuw9XpJ7PWUp1N6ye4A@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.661.1610032057.7193.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <slrnrvef89.5gp.Bischoop@vimart.net>

On 2021-01-07, Dario Dario <dario962004toywind at gmail.com> wrote:
> Sir, I am one of the user of your python program, that is after completion
> of installation I got some statement like "you got code execution problem
> ". I don't know how to rectify this problem.so please help me to rectify
> this problem .
> You send me the solution in this email ID itself .

I'm not Window OS user but doesn't running program in Windows Command Shell
tells also what's wrong?



From p_d_a_s_i_l_v_a_ns at nonetnoaddress.pt  Thu Jan  7 12:18:49 2021
From: p_d_a_s_i_l_v_a_ns at nonetnoaddress.pt (Paulo da Silva)
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 2021 17:18:49 +0000
Subject: Class and tkinter problem
References: <rt6d9a$df3$1@gioia.aioe.org> <rt6e1b$r8o$1@dont-email.me>
Message-ID: <rt7fpn$1kmd$1@gioia.aioe.org>

?s 07:42 de 07/01/21, Christian Gollwitzer escreveu:
> Am 07.01.21 um 08:29 schrieb Paulo da Silva:
> 
>> Does anybody know why cmd method isn't called when I change the button
>> state (clicking on it) in this example?
>> I know that this seems a weird class use. But why doesn't it work?
>> Thanks.
>>
>> class C:
>> ???? from tkinter import Checkbutton
>> ???? import tkinter
>>
>> ???? @staticmethod
> ^^it works if you remove the staticmethod here

Yes, that's the coventional way.
Thanks


From p_d_a_s_i_l_v_a_ns at nonetnoaddress.pt  Thu Jan  7 12:28:20 2021
From: p_d_a_s_i_l_v_a_ns at nonetnoaddress.pt (Paulo da Silva)
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 2021 17:28:20 +0000
Subject: Class and tkinter problem
References: <rt6d9a$df3$1@gioia.aioe.org> <rt6e1b$r8o$1@dont-email.me>
 <rt6jpn$67h$1@ciao.gmane.io>
 <mailman.660.1610032057.7193.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <rt7gbj$1ufl$1@gioia.aioe.org>

?s 09:20 de 07/01/21, Terry Reedy escreveu:
> On 1/7/2021 2:42 AM, Christian Gollwitzer wrote:
>> Am 07.01.21 um 08:29 schrieb Paulo da Silva:
>>
>>> Does anybody know why cmd method isn't called when I change the button
>>> state (clicking on it) in this example?
>>> I know that this seems a weird class use. But why doesn't it work?
>>> Thanks.
>>>
>>> class C:
>>> ???? from tkinter import Checkbutton
>>> ???? import tkinter
>>>
>>> ???? @staticmethod
>> ^^it works if you remove the staticmethod here
> 
> staticmethods are essentially useless in Python.? What little was gained
> by their addition is partly offset by the introduced confusion.
It depends on what the classes are being used for.
Sometimes I just want to use them as static wrappers.
Of course I could use them in the conventional way for this purpose, but
it's not so clean :-)
...

> 
> Classmethods also do not work as is.? By experiment, the following works.
> ??? cb=Checkbutton(command=lambda: C.cmd.__func__(C))
Why not just
cb=Checkbutton(command=lambda : C.cmd()) ?
Also works.
BTW, just for curiosity, and for my personal learning ... What does
"__func__" does?

Thank you.



From p_d_a_s_i_l_v_a_ns at nonetnoaddress.pt  Thu Jan  7 12:31:11 2021
From: p_d_a_s_i_l_v_a_ns at nonetnoaddress.pt (Paulo da Silva)
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 2021 17:31:11 +0000
Subject: Class and tkinter problem
References: <rt6d9a$df3$1@gioia.aioe.org> <rt6e1b$r8o$1@dont-email.me>
 <3325a90f-58c5-3ad8-277b-8aeb7a7c3f34@web.de>
 <mailman.666.1610035339.7193.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <rt7ggu$1ef$1@gioia.aioe.org>

?s 16:02 de 07/01/21, Peter Otten escreveu:
> On 07/01/2021 08:42, Christian Gollwitzer wrote:
>> Am 07.01.21 um 08:29 schrieb Paulo da Silva:
>>
...

> 
> I recommend that the OP use a more conventional stye and do the setup
> outside the class or, better, in an instance of the class.
> 
There are lots of possible more conventional ways, of course.
My purpose was only to understand what was wrong.

Thanks anyway.



From Bischoop at vimart.net  Thu Jan  7 11:45:08 2021
From: Bischoop at vimart.net (Bischoop)
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 2021 16:45:08 -0000 (UTC)
Subject: primitive password cracker
References: <slrnrvdlvd.37n.Bischoop@vimart.net>
 <CAPTjJmrtJ66X-a3_93VHcBfi1o=7PRNm99LPBfA0djxhSjiypQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.656.1610020631.7193.python-list@python.org>
 <slrnrve59v.5gp.Bischoop@vimart.net>
 <AM5PR0701MB2740EB4E908B03F5FA00B7B787AF0@AM5PR0701MB2740.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com>
 <mailman.662.1610032703.7193.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <slrnrveekk.5gp.Bischoop@vimart.net>

On 2021-01-07, David Raymond <David.Raymond at tomtom.com> wrote:
> I think you might want to check out itertools.product()
> https://docs.python.org/3.9/library/itertools.html#itertools.product


Thanks David for contribution I find it very convenient but not knowing
how to solve solution without itertools for:
for a i xxxx:
	for b in xxxx:
		for c in xxxx:
			for d in xxxx:
				

doesn't give me a peace.

--
Thanks




From Bischoop at vimart.net  Thu Jan  7 11:52:56 2021
From: Bischoop at vimart.net (Bischoop)
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 2021 16:52:56 -0000 (UTC)
Subject: primitive password cracker
References: <slrnrvdlvd.37n.Bischoop@vimart.net>
 <CAPTjJmrtJ66X-a3_93VHcBfi1o=7PRNm99LPBfA0djxhSjiypQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.656.1610020631.7193.python-list@python.org>
 <slrnrve5g0.5gp.Bischoop@vimart.net>
 <CAPTjJmpMY-kP3NmBQrJLXwB_F0wFnmExCC50n9H2uOfquAk0WA@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.663.1610033143.7193.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <slrnrvef38.5gp.Bischoop@vimart.net>

On 2021-01-07, Chris Angelico <rosuav at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> True. Unfortunately, it doesn't work, so what you'd have is something
> that can be easily parameterized to not work on other numbers of
> characters too. :)
>

My bad is I'm kinda maniac and have to know how to, I know best solution
itertool but... I just must know, was thinking that studing the itertool
code would give me an answer but found it's in C.
Now I try list comprehension for it, so it's another day on it for me.


--
Thanks

From p_d_a_s_i_l_v_a_ns at nonetnoaddress.pt  Thu Jan  7 12:38:04 2021
From: p_d_a_s_i_l_v_a_ns at nonetnoaddress.pt (Paulo da Silva)
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 2021 17:38:04 +0000
Subject: Class and tkinter problem
References: <rt6d9a$df3$1@gioia.aioe.org>
Message-ID: <rt7gtr$7r9$1@gioia.aioe.org>

?s 07:29 de 07/01/21, Paulo da Silva escreveu:
> Hi!
> 
> Does anybody know why cmd method isn't called when I change the button
> state (clicking on it) in this example?
> I know that this seems a weird class use. But why doesn't it work?
> Thanks.
> 
> class C:
>     from tkinter import Checkbutton
>     import tkinter
> 
>     @staticmethod
>     def cmd():
>         print("Test")
> 
>     top=tkinter.Tk()
>     cb=Checkbutton(command=cmd)
>     cb.pack()
> 
>     @staticmethod
>     def loop():
>         C.top.mainloop()
> 
> c=C()
> c.loop()
> 

After some experiments I found two solutions:

1)

class C:
    @staticmethod
    def cmd():
        print("Test")
class C: #@DuplicatedSignature
    from tkinter import Checkbutton
    import tkinter

    top=tkinter.Tk()
    cb=Checkbutton(command=C.cmd)
    cb.pack()

    @staticmethod
    def loop():
        C.top.mainloop()

c=C()
c.loop()

2)

class C:
    from tkinter import Checkbutton
    import tkinter

    @staticmethod
    def cmd():
        print("Test")

    top=tkinter.Tk()
    cb=Checkbutton(command=lambda : C.cmd())
    cb.pack()

    @staticmethod
    def loop():
        C.top.mainloop()

c=C()
c.loop()

This one as a sequence of the answer of Terry - thanks.

BTW, does anyone know I can I get the arguments eventually passed by the
Checkbutton event, or any other widget callback (*pargs, **kargs) using
this "solution"?

From Bischoop at vimart.net  Thu Jan  7 12:39:36 2021
From: Bischoop at vimart.net (Bischoop)
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 2021 17:39:36 -0000 (UTC)
Subject: primitive password cracker
References: <slrnrvdlvd.37n.Bischoop@vimart.net>
 <CAPTjJmrtJ66X-a3_93VHcBfi1o=7PRNm99LPBfA0djxhSjiypQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.656.1610020631.7193.python-list@python.org>
 <slrnrve5g0.5gp.Bischoop@vimart.net>
 <CAPTjJmpMY-kP3NmBQrJLXwB_F0wFnmExCC50n9H2uOfquAk0WA@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.663.1610033143.7193.python-list@python.org>
 <slrnrvef38.5gp.Bischoop@vimart.net>
Message-ID: <slrnrvehqo.8su.Bischoop@vimart.net>

On 2021-01-07, Bischoop <Bischoop at vimart.net> wrote:
> On 2021-01-07, Chris Angelico <rosuav at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> True. Unfortunately, it doesn't work, so what you'd have is something
>> that can be easily parameterized to not work on other numbers of
>> characters too. :)
>>
>
> My bad is I'm kinda maniac and have to know how to, I know best solution
> itertool but... I just must know, was thinking that studing the itertool
> code would give me an answer but found it's in C.
> Now I try list comprehension for it, so it's another day on it for me.
>
>

So after checking itertools doc I found what itertools.product is
quivalent for on: https://docs.python.org/3/library/itertools.html#itertools.product

Now I'll sleep.

--
Thanks

From david at kolovratnik.net  Thu Jan  7 12:56:49 2021
From: david at kolovratnik.net (David =?iso-8859-1?Q?Kolovratn=EDk?=)
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 2021 18:56:49 +0100
Subject: primitive password cracker
In-Reply-To: <slrnrvef38.5gp.Bischoop@vimart.net>
References: <slrnrvdlvd.37n.Bischoop@vimart.net>
 <CAPTjJmrtJ66X-a3_93VHcBfi1o=7PRNm99LPBfA0djxhSjiypQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.656.1610020631.7193.python-list@python.org>
 <slrnrve5g0.5gp.Bischoop@vimart.net>
 <CAPTjJmpMY-kP3NmBQrJLXwB_F0wFnmExCC50n9H2uOfquAk0WA@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.663.1610033143.7193.python-list@python.org>
 <slrnrvef38.5gp.Bischoop@vimart.net>
Message-ID: <20210107175648.GJ14929@crfreenet.org>

I find a parallel to counting useful. Let letters be '0' to '9'
and think of manual (in contrast to formatting range(0, 10))
construction of list of strings "0000" to "9999" 

Let's start with 0000. How do you compute the next item? Start
looking from its end. I stop here in order to leave space for 
Bischoop's deliberation.

To sum up in order words, the clue is to stop thinking of inner
loops for each letter and find a way to get the next combination.

Best,
David

On Thu, Jan 07, 2021 at 04:52:56PM -0000, Bischoop wrote:
> On 2021-01-07, Chris Angelico <rosuav at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > True. Unfortunately, it doesn't work, so what you'd have is something
> > that can be easily parameterized to not work on other numbers of
> > characters too. :)
> >
> 
> My bad is I'm kinda maniac and have to know how to, I know best solution
> itertool but... I just must know, was thinking that studing the itertool
> code would give me an answer but found it's in C.
> Now I try list comprehension for it, so it's another day on it for me.
> 
> 
> --
> Thanks
> -- 
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

From PythonList at DancesWithMice.info  Thu Jan  7 13:23:58 2021
From: PythonList at DancesWithMice.info (dn)
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 2021 07:23:58 +1300
Subject: primitive password cracker
In-Reply-To: <slrnrvef38.5gp.Bischoop@vimart.net>
References: <slrnrvdlvd.37n.Bischoop@vimart.net>
 <CAPTjJmrtJ66X-a3_93VHcBfi1o=7PRNm99LPBfA0djxhSjiypQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.656.1610020631.7193.python-list@python.org>
 <slrnrve5g0.5gp.Bischoop@vimart.net>
 <CAPTjJmpMY-kP3NmBQrJLXwB_F0wFnmExCC50n9H2uOfquAk0WA@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.663.1610033143.7193.python-list@python.org>
 <slrnrvef38.5gp.Bischoop@vimart.net>
Message-ID: <fdacba66-cb13-1b3c-cc8a-08dfdf8be67f@DancesWithMice.info>

On 08/01/2021 05.52, Bischoop wrote:
> On 2021-01-07, Chris Angelico <rosuav at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> True. Unfortunately, it doesn't work, so what you'd have is something
>> that can be easily parameterized to not work on other numbers of
>> characters too. :)
>>
> 
> My bad is I'm kinda maniac and have to know how to, I know best solution
> itertool but... I just must know, was thinking that studing the itertool
> code would give me an answer but found it's in C.
> Now I try list comprehension for it, so it's another day on it for me.


BTW have you realised a second 'typo' - that there are only 24 letters
in this 'alphabet'?


It is not difficult to parametrise the building of a "password cracking
dictionary"! (NB not same definition as a Python dictionary) Take it one
step (one character) at a time...

We start from our list of "letters". This is every permutation of the
alphabet, taken one at a time. Call it the one_character_list.
[Let's not distract from the problem by arguing about the definition of
"permutation"!]

Next, we'll take the one_character_list and permute that, with each of
our letter[s]. Thus 'a, b, c' expands to 'aa, ab, ac, ... ba, bb, bc,
... ca, cb, cc, ...'.

For every one of the 24 elements of the one_character_list we now have
24 elements in the two_character_list, ie len( two_character_list )
should be 24*24 (== 24**2) and each element should be unique (ie same
rule as a set).
NB above equation varies if the rule for what may be the first character
of a password differs for the rule of which letters/characters may follow!

Similarly, if we take the two_character_list, we can permute that
(again/further) with each letter. Thus 'aaa, aab, aac, ...baa, bab, bac,
...'. Thus, len( three_character_list ) == 24 * 24 * 24 == 24 ** 3 ==
len( two_character_list ) * 24 == len( one_character_list ) * 24 * 24

Carrying-on we can build a "password cracking dictionary" of any length.
NB the three-character_list contains exactly 'what it says on the tin'
(English-English expression meaning that the label is entirely correct).
Thus if the password rules say 'up to three characters in length', then
the password-cracker would have to test each of the three lists in-turn
too look for one-character passwords, then two-character passwords, and
finally three...!


Disclaimers:

Permutations and combinations are an interesting [learning] exercise,
and we're getting used to your preference for step-by-step
experimentation and learning-mastery.

That said, @David is correct - once understood, use the tool! Because
these multiple loops are "expensive" (in terms of execution-time).

Per @Chris and comments above, consider when and where to use
character-strings, tuples, lists, and/or sets - for 'best results'
and/or 'best practice'.

Per @yourself, once you have coded, tested, and debugged a solution
featuring explicit for-loops, it will be a valuable exercise to upgrade
(the code and quite probably the execution speed) using
comprehensions/expressions...



Sample code:

def permute_lists( existing_list:list, expansion_list:list )->list:
    '''Expand each of the existing list's elements
        with every element of a provided list.
    '''
    permuted_list = list()
    for existing_element in existing_list:
        for expansion_element in expansion_list:
            permuted_list.append( existing_element + expansion_element )
    return permuted_list


# establish character-set to be used
letters = ['a', 'b', 'c', 'd', 'e', 'f', 'g', 'h', 'i', 'j', 'k', 'l',
'm', 'n', 'o', 'p', 'r',
           's', 't', 'u', 'w', 'q', 'y', 'z']

# taking each of the letters once is the character-set
one_character_list = letters
print( len( one_character_list ) )
print( one_character_list, end="\n" )

# taking the letters two at a time
two_character_list = permute_lists( one_character_list, letters )
print( len( two_character_list ), len( one_character_list ) * len(
letters ) )
print( two_character_list, end="\n" )

# taking the letters three at a time
three_character_list = permute_lists( two_character_list, letters )
print( len( three_character_list ), len( two_character_list ) * len(
letters ) )
print( three_character_list, end="\n" )

-- 
Regards =dn

From tjreedy at udel.edu  Thu Jan  7 15:35:47 2021
From: tjreedy at udel.edu (Terry Reedy)
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 2021 15:35:47 -0500
Subject: Class and tkinter problem
In-Reply-To: <rt6jpn$67h$1@ciao.gmane.io>
References: <rt6d9a$df3$1@gioia.aioe.org> <rt6e1b$r8o$1@dont-email.me>
 <rt6jpn$67h$1@ciao.gmane.io>
Message-ID: <rt7rb4$mjg$1@ciao.gmane.io>

On 1/7/2021 4:20 AM, Terry Reedy wrote:
> On 1/7/2021 2:42 AM, Christian Gollwitzer wrote:
>> Am 07.01.21 um 08:29 schrieb Paulo da Silva:
>>
>>> Does anybody know why cmd method isn't called when I change the button
>>> state (clicking on it) in this example?
>>> I know that this seems a weird class use. But why doesn't it work?
>>> Thanks.
>>>
>>> class C:
>>> ???? from tkinter import Checkbutton
>>> ???? import tkinter
>>>
>>> ???? @staticmethod
>> ^^it works if you remove the staticmethod here
> 
> staticmethods are essentially useless in Python.? What little was gained 
> by their addition is partly offset by the introduced confusion.

>>> ???? def cmd():
>>> ???????? print("Test")

The confusion is that methods are callable, whereas 'staticmethods' are 
not.  I was not completely aware of this until pointed out by Peter 
Otten with example

"    cmd()

Traceback (most recent call last):
   File "<pyshell#28>", line 1, in <module>
     class C:
   File "<pyshell#28>", line 4, in C
     cmd()
TypeError: 'staticmethod' object is not callable

You have to go through the descriptor protocol:"

Indeed, dir(cmd) shows that it does not have a .__call__ attribute.

>  ??? top=tkinter.Tk()
>  ??? cb=Checkbutton(command=cmd)

> Button commands have to be tcl functions.? Tkinter wraps Python 
> functions as tcl function.? Static methods also wrap python functions, 
> as a .__func__ attribute.? So the code if one passes cmd.__func__.

"So the code works if one passes the callable cmd.__func__."

>> Maybe there is a bug in tkinter, that it doesn't work with static 
>> methods?
> 
> One could propose that tkinter test whether callables are staticmethods 

Command options, as documented, must be callables. Neither staticmethods 
nor classmethods are callable.

> and unwrap them when they are.

  I would propose instead that if possible tkinter raise TypeError when 
passed a non-callable as a command.

> Classmethods also do not work as is.? By experiment, the following works.
>  ??? cb=Checkbutton(command=lambda: C.cmd.__func__(C))
> But if the class were nested, it would be more complicated.


-- 
Terry Jan Reedy



From hatch4591 at gmail.com  Thu Jan  7 15:48:47 2021
From: hatch4591 at gmail.com (Craig Hatch)
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 2021 14:48:47 -0600
Subject: This is a test
Message-ID: <CAH3nJMPP72AamcA7KmFnn=hP4JbQ8BJggG-yHEMz8edu8Mk6OA@mail.gmail.com>

I have added you to the EMAIL  list, so when I have questions.

Just learn for fun.


Craig Hatch

From greg.ewing at canterbury.ac.nz  Thu Jan  7 19:25:23 2021
From: greg.ewing at canterbury.ac.nz (Greg Ewing)
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 2021 13:25:23 +1300
Subject: primitive password cracker
In-Reply-To: <mailman.669.1610043859.7193.python-list@python.org>
References: <slrnrvdlvd.37n.Bischoop@vimart.net>
 <CAPTjJmrtJ66X-a3_93VHcBfi1o=7PRNm99LPBfA0djxhSjiypQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.656.1610020631.7193.python-list@python.org>
 <slrnrve5g0.5gp.Bischoop@vimart.net>
 <CAPTjJmpMY-kP3NmBQrJLXwB_F0wFnmExCC50n9H2uOfquAk0WA@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.663.1610033143.7193.python-list@python.org>
 <slrnrvef38.5gp.Bischoop@vimart.net>
 <fdacba66-cb13-1b3c-cc8a-08dfdf8be67f@DancesWithMice.info>
 <mailman.669.1610043859.7193.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <i5pn3lFtfd5U1@mid.individual.net>

Another way to approach this problem is using recursion, e.g.

def find_combinations(items, n, comb, result):
   if n == 0:
     result.append(comb)
   else:
     for item in items:
       find_combinations(items, n - 1, comb + [item], result)

words = []
find_combinations(['a', 'b', 'c'], 3, [], words)
print(words)

For this particular problem it's less efficient than the
technique used by itertools.product, because it generates
sub-combinations multiple times. However, it's a useful
technique to keep in mind whenever you have a "variable
number of nested for-loops" kind of problem.

-- 
Greg


From rosuav at gmail.com  Thu Jan  7 19:39:16 2021
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 2021 11:39:16 +1100
Subject: primitive password cracker
In-Reply-To: <i5pn3lFtfd5U1@mid.individual.net>
References: <slrnrvdlvd.37n.Bischoop@vimart.net>
 <CAPTjJmrtJ66X-a3_93VHcBfi1o=7PRNm99LPBfA0djxhSjiypQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.656.1610020631.7193.python-list@python.org>
 <slrnrve5g0.5gp.Bischoop@vimart.net>
 <CAPTjJmpMY-kP3NmBQrJLXwB_F0wFnmExCC50n9H2uOfquAk0WA@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.663.1610033143.7193.python-list@python.org>
 <slrnrvef38.5gp.Bischoop@vimart.net>
 <fdacba66-cb13-1b3c-cc8a-08dfdf8be67f@DancesWithMice.info>
 <mailman.669.1610043859.7193.python-list@python.org>
 <i5pn3lFtfd5U1@mid.individual.net>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmp6OYQ2EQAnUXdYBa9rVjkT=BwYA4CS5045C8__rpNjjA@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Jan 8, 2021 at 11:31 AM Greg Ewing <greg.ewing at canterbury.ac.nz> wrote:
>
> Another way to approach this problem is using recursion, e.g.
>
> def find_combinations(items, n, comb, result):
>    if n == 0:
>      result.append(comb)
>    else:
>      for item in items:
>        find_combinations(items, n - 1, comb + [item], result)
>
> words = []
> find_combinations(['a', 'b', 'c'], 3, [], words)
> print(words)
>

True, but I'd much rather write it as a generator:

def permute(items, n):
    if not n:
        yield ""
        return
    # Optional performance enhancement:
    if n == 1: return (yield from items)
    for item in items:
        for rest in permute(items, n - 1):
            yield item + rest

words = list(permute("abc", 3))

I'm not sure how performance would go, but this is a lot cleaner.

ChrisA

From p_d_a_s_i_l_v_a_ns at nonetnoaddress.pt  Thu Jan  7 20:30:15 2021
From: p_d_a_s_i_l_v_a_ns at nonetnoaddress.pt (Paulo da Silva)
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 2021 01:30:15 +0000
Subject: Class and tkinter problem
References: <rt6d9a$df3$1@gioia.aioe.org> <rt6e1b$r8o$1@dont-email.me>
 <rt6jpn$67h$1@ciao.gmane.io> <rt7rb4$mjg$1@ciao.gmane.io>
 <mailman.670.1610054366.7193.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <rt8cj5$4m8$1@gioia.aioe.org>

?s 20:35 de 07/01/21, Terry Reedy escreveu:
> On 1/7/2021 4:20 AM, Terry Reedy wrote:
>> On 1/7/2021 2:42 AM, Christian Gollwitzer wrote:
>>> Am 07.01.21 um 08:29 schrieb Paulo da Silva:
>>>
>>>> Does anybody know why cmd method isn't called when I change the button
>>>> state (clicking on it) in this example?
>>>> I know that this seems a weird class use. But why doesn't it work?
>>>> Thanks.
>>>>
>>>> class C:
>>>> ???? from tkinter import Checkbutton
>>>> ???? import tkinter
>>>>
>>>> ???? @staticmethod
>>> ^^it works if you remove the staticmethod here
>>
>> staticmethods are essentially useless in Python.? What little was
>> gained by their addition is partly offset by the introduced confusion.
> 
>>>> ???? def cmd():
>>>> ???????? print("Test")
> 
> The confusion is that methods are callable, whereas 'staticmethods' are
> not.? I was not completely aware of this until pointed out by Peter
> Otten with example
> 
> "??? cmd()
> 
> Traceback (most recent call last):
> ? File "<pyshell#28>", line 1, in <module>
> ??? class C:
> ? File "<pyshell#28>", line 4, in C
> ??? cmd()
> TypeError: 'staticmethod' object is not callable
> 
> You have to go through the descriptor protocol:"
> 
> Indeed, dir(cmd) shows that it does not have a .__call__ attribute.
> 
>> ???? top=tkinter.Tk()
>> ???? cb=Checkbutton(command=cmd)
> 
>> Button commands have to be tcl functions.? Tkinter wraps Python
>> functions as tcl function.? Static methods also wrap python functions,
>> as a .__func__ attribute.? So the code if one passes cmd.__func__.
> 
> "So the code works if one passes the callable cmd.__func__."
> 
>>> Maybe there is a bug in tkinter, that it doesn't work with static
>>> methods?
>>
>> One could propose that tkinter test whether callables are staticmethods 
> 
> Command options, as documented, must be callables. Neither staticmethods
> nor classmethods are callable.
> 
>> and unwrap them when they are.
> 
> ?I would propose instead that if possible tkinter raise TypeError when
> passed a non-callable as a command.
> 
Yes, that would be much better.
Thanks.

From wesjpeng at gmail.com  Thu Jan  7 19:28:02 2021
From: wesjpeng at gmail.com (Wesley Peng)
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 2021 08:28:02 +0800
Subject: This is a test
In-Reply-To: <CAH3nJMPP72AamcA7KmFnn=hP4JbQ8BJggG-yHEMz8edu8Mk6OA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAH3nJMPP72AamcA7KmFnn=hP4JbQ8BJggG-yHEMz8edu8Mk6OA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAD92VFLa9YiCB+7tR7h67HGx6CfGro0hZEnxu9UyW8nvJT8bbg@mail.gmail.com>

Please don't send a test message to the public list which was read by
thousands of people. thanks.

On Fri, Jan 8, 2021 at 5:26 AM Craig Hatch <hatch4591 at gmail.com> wrote:

> I have added you to the EMAIL  list, so when I have questions.
>
> Just learn for fun.
>
>
> Craig Hatch
> --
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
>

From unix.co at gmail.com  Fri Jan  8 04:56:38 2021
From: unix.co at gmail.com (Umar Draz)
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 2021 14:56:38 +0500
Subject: Remove duplicate values from dictionary without removing key
Message-ID: <CAAKRE731rDNsrG+5_X5jJBPwRbaz6zkBC6FHogoMFY1aEk2ghg@mail.gmail.com>

I want to replace duplicate values with empty "" in my dictionary. Here is
my original dictionary.

items = [
    {'client': 'xyz', 'name': "Ilir Meta", 'rating': 0.06, 'total': 100},
    {'client': 'xyz','name': "Abdelmadjid Tebboune", 'rating': 4.0,
'total': 100},
    {'client': 'xyz','name': "Alexander Lukashenko", 'rating': 3.1,
'total': 100},
    {'client': 'xyz', 'name': "Miguel D?az-Canel", 'rating': 0.32,
'total': 100},
    {'client': 'udz', 'name': "Ilir Meta", 'rating': 0.06, 'total': 150},
    {'client': 'udz', 'name': "Abdelmadjid Tebboune", 'rating': 4.0,
'total': 100},
    {'client': 'udz', 'name': "Alexander Lukashenko", 'rating': 3.1,
'total': 150},
    {'client': 'udz', 'name': "Miguel D?az-Canel", 'rating': 0.32, 'total': 150}
]


Now I want to create another dict with like this

items = [
    {'client': 'xyz', 'name': "Ilir Meta", 'rating': 0.06, 'total': 100},
    {'client': '','name': "Abdelmadjid Tebboune", 'rating': 4.0, 'total': ''},
    {'client': '','name': "Alexander Lukashenko", 'rating': 3.1, 'total': ''},
    {'client': '', 'name': "Miguel D?az-Canel", 'rating': 0.32, 'total': ''},
    {'client': 'udz', 'name': "Ilir Meta", 'rating': 0.06, 'total': 150},
    {'client': '', 'name': "Abdelmadjid Tebboune", 'rating': 4.0, 'total': ''},
    {'client': '', 'name': "Alexander Lukashenko", 'rating': 3.1, 'total': ''},
    {'client': '', 'name': "Miguel D?az-Canel", 'rating': 0.32, 'total': ''}
]


Would you please help me how I can do this? and if this is not the right
place to ask this question then please help me where I can ask this? I had
tried stackoverflow but that not worked.

From a.h.jaffe at gmail.com  Fri Jan  8 07:33:38 2021
From: a.h.jaffe at gmail.com (Andrew Jaffe)
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 2021 12:33:38 +0000
Subject: better handling of "pinned" modules?
Message-ID: <rt9jf2$d1n$1@ciao.gmane.io>

Hi,

I don't know if this makes more sense here or on "python-ideas" (or 
elsewhere?) but I'll try this first:

I am starting to encounter more and more instances of packages requiring 
older, pinned, versions of modules, and this is occasionally actually 
starting to cause conflicts.

It seems that the "official" way to handle this is through virtual 
environments, but this is not ideal for my workflow, which usually 
involves a lot of exploratory analysis -- I don't know which packages 
I'll need before I start (and, in any event, there's no guarantee I 
won't need conflicting packages).

Are there any good workarounds, or proposals for actual solutions so 
that multiple versions of a package can be installed? I understand that 
this is not trivial. Where would the "pinning" happen? It could be in 
the source code, so that it would somehow happen in the `import` 
statement (e.g., by explicitly renaming the package in question to 
include a version number, or less likely, by a new `import` syntax)? Or 
it could happen in the structure of the way modules are stored so that, 
for example, any imports that happen within a specific package egg would 
be directed to a specific version stored within the egg or in some other 
known location?

Is this an issue worth tackling?

Or do we just have to rely on package developers to keep up with their 
dependencies?

Yours,

Andrew


From rosuav at gmail.com  Fri Jan  8 13:21:18 2021
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Sat, 9 Jan 2021 05:21:18 +1100
Subject: better handling of "pinned" modules?
In-Reply-To: <rt9jf2$d1n$1@ciao.gmane.io>
References: <rt9jf2$d1n$1@ciao.gmane.io>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmqaN2BmrZt3dkbhNRe42PYA2pkHzQ1SLoGbzD3xePA=iQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Jan 9, 2021 at 5:18 AM Andrew Jaffe <a.h.jaffe at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
> I don't know if this makes more sense here or on "python-ideas" (or
> elsewhere?) but I'll try this first:
>
> I am starting to encounter more and more instances of packages requiring
> older, pinned, versions of modules, and this is occasionally actually
> starting to cause conflicts.
>

The first thing to do is to see if those packages ACTUALLY need older
versions of those dependencies. There's a good chance they don't.

To avoid creating this sort of problem, don't depend on a highly
specific version of things; just depend on a minimum version, and if
there's a problem (ONLY if there's a problem), a maximum version.

ChrisA

From python at mrabarnett.plus.com  Fri Jan  8 15:03:43 2021
From: python at mrabarnett.plus.com (MRAB)
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 2021 20:03:43 +0000
Subject: Remove duplicate values from dictionary without removing key
In-Reply-To: <CAAKRE731rDNsrG+5_X5jJBPwRbaz6zkBC6FHogoMFY1aEk2ghg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAAKRE731rDNsrG+5_X5jJBPwRbaz6zkBC6FHogoMFY1aEk2ghg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <ec1b063a-7024-c171-f878-e9870b6b7bc1@mrabarnett.plus.com>

On 2021-01-08 09:56, Umar Draz wrote:
> I want to replace duplicate values with empty "" in my dictionary. Here is
> my original dictionary.
> 
> items = [
>      {'client': 'xyz', 'name': "Ilir Meta", 'rating': 0.06, 'total': 100},
>      {'client': 'xyz','name': "Abdelmadjid Tebboune", 'rating': 4.0,
> 'total': 100},
>      {'client': 'xyz','name': "Alexander Lukashenko", 'rating': 3.1,
> 'total': 100},
>      {'client': 'xyz', 'name': "Miguel D?az-Canel", 'rating': 0.32,
> 'total': 100},
>      {'client': 'udz', 'name': "Ilir Meta", 'rating': 0.06, 'total': 150},
>      {'client': 'udz', 'name': "Abdelmadjid Tebboune", 'rating': 4.0,
> 'total': 100},
>      {'client': 'udz', 'name': "Alexander Lukashenko", 'rating': 3.1,
> 'total': 150},
>      {'client': 'udz', 'name': "Miguel D?az-Canel", 'rating': 0.32, 'total': 150}
> ]
> 
> 
> Now I want to create another dict with like this
> 
> items = [
>      {'client': 'xyz', 'name': "Ilir Meta", 'rating': 0.06, 'total': 100},
>      {'client': '','name': "Abdelmadjid Tebboune", 'rating': 4.0, 'total': ''},
>      {'client': '','name': "Alexander Lukashenko", 'rating': 3.1, 'total': ''},
>      {'client': '', 'name': "Miguel D?az-Canel", 'rating': 0.32, 'total': ''},
>      {'client': 'udz', 'name': "Ilir Meta", 'rating': 0.06, 'total': 150},
>      {'client': '', 'name': "Abdelmadjid Tebboune", 'rating': 4.0, 'total': ''},
>      {'client': '', 'name': "Alexander Lukashenko", 'rating': 3.1, 'total': ''},
>      {'client': '', 'name': "Miguel D?az-Canel", 'rating': 0.32, 'total': ''}
> ]
> 
> 
> Would you please help me how I can do this? and if this is not the right
> place to ask this question then please help me where I can ask this? I had
> tried stackoverflow but that not worked.
> 
Iterate through the list of dicts.

If you've seen the client before, then set the appropriate value or 
values in the dict to ''.

You can use a set to remember which clients you've already seen.

From jbrown299 at yandex.com  Fri Jan  8 14:53:35 2021
From: jbrown299 at yandex.com (James)
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 2021 22:53:35 +0300
Subject: asyncio project code review
Message-ID: <935ef843-f58d-a845-b20e-7c950ae4765a@yandex.com>

Good day everyone.

I have new asyncio project which use aiohttp connector and asyncio 
protocols/transports for tunneling packets through Tor Network cleanly. 
Project called aiotor: https://github.com/torpyorg/aiotor

If someone with experience in asyncio field can make code review I will 
be appreciated for any comments.

I prepared pull request to make it convenient to review and comment on 
the code: https://github.com/torpyorg/aiotor/pull/1



From jbrown299 at yandex.com  Fri Jan  8 15:10:19 2021
From: jbrown299 at yandex.com (James)
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 2021 23:10:19 +0300
Subject: Asyncio project code review
Message-ID: <22214ba4-4ac0-0b48-d477-750ac3c1366b@yandex.com>

Good day for everyone.

I have new asyncio project which use aiohttp connector and asyncio 
protocols/transports for tunneling packets through Tor Network cleanly. 
Project called aiotor: https://github.com/torpyorg/aiotor

If someone with experience in asyncio field can make code review I will 
be appreciated for any comments.

I prepared pull request to make it convenient to review and comment on 
the code: https://github.com/torpyorg/aiotor/pull/1

Thanks in advance.

From rshepard at appl-ecosys.com  Fri Jan  8 16:47:35 2021
From: rshepard at appl-ecosys.com (Rich Shepard)
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 2021 13:47:35 -0800 (PST)
Subject: tkinter: creating/attaching menubar to top level window
Message-ID: <alpine.LNX.2.20.2101081336320.25343@salmo.appl-ecosys.com>

I'm using Chapter 9 in Mark Roseman's "Modern Tkinter for Busy Python
Developers" to learn how to write a top level menu. MWE code is attached.

Python3 tells me there's invalid syntax on line 42:
     self.['menu'] = menubar # attach it to the top level window
          ^
yet that's the syntax he prints on page 84 (and has in the book's code
supplement).

Why am I getting an invalid syntax error here?

TIA,

Rich
-------------- next part --------------
#!/usr/bin/env python3

# main file to start application.
from os import environ
import sys
import pdb
from datetime import datetime
import tkinter as tk
from tkinter import ttk
from tkinter import Menu
from tkinter import filedialog
from tkinter import messagebox
from tkinter.font import nametofont
from functools import partial
import model as m
import views as v
import controller as c


class Application(tk.Tk):
    """ Application root window """

    def __init__(self, *args, **kwargs):
        super().__init__(*args, **kwargs)

        # the top level frame holding menu, status bar, etc.
        self.columnconfigure(0, weight=1)
        self.rowconfigure(0, weight=1)
        self.geometry('800x600')
        self.title("Frame title")
        self.resizable(width=True, height=True)

        datestring = datetime.today().strftime("%Y-%m-%d")
        
        # status bar
        self.status = tk.StringVar()
        self.statusbar = ttk.Label(self, textvariable=self.status)
        self.statusbar.grid(sticky="we", row=3, padx=10)

        # toplevel window menu
        menubar = Menu(self) # create a Menu widget
        self.['menu'] = menubar # attach it to the top level window
        """ Add menus to menubar """
        self.menu_file = Menu(menubar, tearoff=0)
        self.menu_view = Menu(menubar, tearoff=0)
        self.menu_add = Menu(menubar, tearoff=0)
        self.menu_edit = Menu(menubar, tearoff=0)
        self.menu_report = Menu(menubar, tearoff=0)
        self.menu_help = Menu(menubar, tearoff=0)
        """ Add menu items to menus """
        menubar.add_cascade(menu_file, label='File')
        menubar.add_cascade(menu_view, label='View')
        menubar.add_cascade(menu_add, label='Add')
        menubar.add_cascade(menu_edit, label='Edit')
        menubar.add_cascade(menu_report, label='Report')
        menubar.add_cascade(menu_help, label='Help')

if __name__ == "__main__":
    app = Application()
    app.mainloop()

From auriocus at gmx.de  Fri Jan  8 17:14:57 2021
From: auriocus at gmx.de (Christian Gollwitzer)
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 2021 23:14:57 +0100
Subject: tkinter: creating/attaching menubar to top level window
In-Reply-To: <mailman.680.1610142464.7193.python-list@python.org>
References: <alpine.LNX.2.20.2101081336320.25343@salmo.appl-ecosys.com>
 <mailman.680.1610142464.7193.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <rtalh2$puu$1@dont-email.me>

Am 08.01.21 um 22:47 schrieb Rich Shepard:
> I'm using Chapter 9 in Mark Roseman's "Modern Tkinter for Busy Python
> Developers" to learn how to write a top level menu. MWE code is attached.
> 
> Python3 tells me there's invalid syntax on line 42:
>  ??? self.['menu'] = menubar # attach it to the top level window
>  ???????? ^
> yet that's the syntax he prints on page 84 (and has in the book's code
> supplement).

It is a simple typo, remove the dot.

	self['menu'] = menubar

It will then stop at the add_cascade, fix it like this:

  menubar.add_cascade(menu=self.menu_file, label='File')

and then it works,

> Why am I getting an invalid syntax error here?

Because the dot would indicate the access of an attribute. but no name 
follows. What it does here, instead, is indexing - the correct line is 
similar to setting a dict entry.

	Christian

From Richard at Damon-Family.org  Fri Jan  8 17:16:20 2021
From: Richard at Damon-Family.org (Richard Damon)
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 2021 17:16:20 -0500
Subject: tkinter: creating/attaching menubar to top level window
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LNX.2.20.2101081336320.25343@salmo.appl-ecosys.com>
References: <alpine.LNX.2.20.2101081336320.25343@salmo.appl-ecosys.com>
Message-ID: <67d6015c-61f8-a28e-f499-0d84acf80701@Damon-Family.org>

On 1/8/21 4:47 PM, Rich Shepard wrote:
> I'm using Chapter 9 in Mark Roseman's "Modern Tkinter for Busy Python
> Developers" to learn how to write a top level menu. MWE code is attached.
>
> Python3 tells me there's invalid syntax on line 42:
> ??? self.['menu'] = menubar # attach it to the top level window
> ???????? ^
> yet that's the syntax he prints on page 84 (and has in the book's code
> supplement).
>
> Why am I getting an invalid syntax error here?
>
> TIA,
>
> Rich 


Because it is the wrong syntax.

It could be either:

self.menu = menubar

or

self['menu'] = menubar

-- 
Richard Damon


From martin.schoon at gmail.com  Fri Jan  8 17:17:11 2021
From: martin.schoon at gmail.com (Martin =?UTF-8?Q?Sch=C3=B6=C3=B6n?=)
Date: 8 Jan 2021 22:17:11 GMT
Subject: dayofyear is not great when going into a new year
References: <i5k21eFq2qnU1@mid.individual.net>
 <date-20210105220602@ram.dialup.fu-berlin.de>
Message-ID: <i5s3v7FddbiU1@mid.individual.net>

Den 2021-01-05 skrev Stefan Ram <ram at zedat.fu-berlin.de>:
> Martin =?UTF-8?Q?Sch=C3=B6=C3=B6n?= <martin.schoon at gmail.com> writes:
>>I have had some Python fun with COVID-19 data. I have done
>>some curve fitting and to make that easier I have transformed
>>date to day of year. Come end of 2020 and beginning of 2021
>>and this idea falls on its face.
>
> import datetime
>
> continuous_day_of_the_year = \
> ( datetime.date.today() - datetime.date( 2020, 1, 1 )).days
>
>
Thanks guys, you got me on the right track. After some further
meandering I did something close to what Stefan suggest above.
I added a column to my Pandas data frame and populated it with

content of date column - datetime(2020, 1, 1)

"regardless of what you have been told, recreational use of
mathematics is harmless"

I hope that is true for recreational programming as well :-)

/Martin

From greg.ewing at canterbury.ac.nz  Fri Jan  8 17:34:55 2021
From: greg.ewing at canterbury.ac.nz (Greg Ewing)
Date: Sat, 9 Jan 2021 11:34:55 +1300
Subject: dayofyear is not great when going into a new year
In-Reply-To: <i5s3v7FddbiU1@mid.individual.net>
References: <i5k21eFq2qnU1@mid.individual.net>
 <date-20210105220602@ram.dialup.fu-berlin.de>
 <i5s3v7FddbiU1@mid.individual.net>
Message-ID: <i5s50fFdm75U1@mid.individual.net>

On 9/01/21 11:17 am, Martin Sch??n wrote:
> "regardless of what you have been told, recreational use of
> mathematics is harmless"
> 
> I hope that is true for recreational programming as well :-)

Mostly harmless, but it can be addictive!

-- 
Greg

From barpasc at yahoo.com  Fri Jan  8 18:06:53 2021
From: barpasc at yahoo.com (pascal z)
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 2021 15:06:53 -0800 (PST)
Subject: learning python building 2nd app, need advices
Message-ID: <3170f050-4d37-4a64-96cb-f3718a3ef2aan@googlegroups.com>

Hi,

This is a python app I was working on, can you help making it a beautiful looking app like bleachbit or ccleaner?

The whole code below (what it does: it lists all folders and files from a specified path and tells some infos like size in mb or gb... and export it to a csv file for further processing maybe with customized dashboard...the listing should will also be used to rename multiple files to help ordering and finding files because current renaming tools are difficult to use I find...) For now it just gives infos about folders and files and rename. Maybe a backup tool would be nice, please advise. But the code is opposiite to bullet proof and if could be more bullet proof, it would be a way to start and continue

the messy code

#!/usr/bin/env python3
# -*- coding: utf-8 -*-

import locale
import os
import csv
from tkinter import messagebox as msg

try:
    from tkinter import *
    import ttk
except:
    import tkinter as tk #GUI package
    from tkinter import ttk


def fx_BasicListing():
    #argx mode = 1 pour basic listing
    #argx mode = 2 pour adv listing
    # "txt" pour type enreg csv txt/csv
    # tree.delete(*tree.get_children())
    fx_browseFoldersZ(1)
    return

def fx_AdvancedListing():
    #argx mode = 1 pour basic listing
    #argx mode = 2 pour adv listing
    # fx_browseFoldersZ(2,"txt")
    # tree.destroy()
    #tree.delete(*tree.get_children())
    fx_browseFoldersZ(2)
    return

def fx_browseFoldersZ(argy):
    #argx mode = 1 pour basic listing
    #argx mode = 2 pour adv listing
    # "txt" pour type enreg csv txt/csv
    tree.delete(*tree.get_children())
    fx_browseFolders(argy,"txt")

###############################################################################
###############################################################################
###############################################################################

def fx_writeCSV(*arr):

    csv_file_title = 'csv_1_baselisting.csv'
    # csv path entry box
    CSV_FILE = vcsv_path.get()

    if not os.path.exists(CSV_FILE):
        os.makedirs(CSV_FILE)

    CSV_FILE += csv_file_title
    print('%s' % CSV_FILE)

    with open(CSV_FILE,'w', newline ='\n') as f:
        write = csv.writer(f, doublequote=True, delimiter=';')
        for row in arr:
            write.writerows(row)

def fx_writeCSV_str(txt_str):
    csv_file_title = 'csvtxt_1_baselisting.csv'
    # csv path entry box
    CSV_FILE = vcsv_path.get()

    if not os.path.exists(CSV_FILE):
        os.makedirs(CSV_FILE)

    CSV_FILE += csv_file_title
    print('%s' % CSV_FILE)

    with open(CSV_FILE,'w') as f:
        f.write(txt_str)

    # fx_LoadCSV(CSV_FILE)

    with open(CSV_FILE, 'r') as f:
        reader = csv.DictReader(f, delimiter=';')
        for row in reader:
            col1 = row['Path']
            col2 = row['Folder-file']
            col3 = row['Size in Byte']
            col4 = row['Size in Kb']
            col5 = row['Size in Mb']
            col6 = row['Size in Gb']
            col7 = row['type']

            tree.insert('', 'end', values=(col1, col2, col3, col4, col5, col6,col7))

    return

###############################################################################
###############################################################################

def fx_chkPath(xzPath):
    isxFile = os.path.isfile(xzPath)
    isxDir = os.path.isdir(xzPath)
    print("DOSSIER OUI????",isxDir)
    if isxDir:
        return
    elif not isxDir:
        msg.showwarning("Folder path", "WD Path entered not found")
    return


###############################################################################
###############################################################################
###############################################################################


def fx_browseFolders(argz, tycsv):
    tree.delete(*tree.get_children())
    # /// /// ///
    csv_txt = ""
    csv_contents = ""
    counterPath = 0
    size = 0
    f_size = 0
    f_vscale = 0
    # /// /// ///

    # path WD
    Lpath = vtxt_path.get()
    print('%s' % Lpath)

    # include files
    vvchkboxF = vchkboxF.get()
    # print("include files:::", vchkboxF.get())

    # include modification date
    print(vchkboxD.get())

    # include creation date
    print(vchkboxC.get())

    # scale
    f_vscale = int(var_scale.get())
    print(f_vscale)

    # path WD 2
    if Lpath.endswith(os.path.sep):
       Lpath = Lpath[:-1]

    # isFile = os.path.isfile(Lpath)
    # print("fichier?",isFile)
    fx_chkPath(Lpath)

    counterPath = Lpath.count(os.path.sep)

    csv_contents = "Path;Folder-file;Size in Byte;Size in Kb;Size in Mb;Size in Gb;type\n"

    csv_txt = csv_contents

    # csv_contents
    #     1-FOLDER PATH
    #     2-FILENAME
    #     3-FOLDER PATH FULL
    #     4-Size in Byte
    #     5-Size in Kb
    #     6-Size in Mb
    #     7-Size in Gb
    #     8-type\n

    ### BASIC LISTING #########
    if argz == 1:
        print("basic listing")
        file_paths = []
        file_paths.append([csv_contents])
        for root, dirs, files in os.walk(Lpath, topdown=True):
            for file in files:
                if tycsv == "csv":
                    vfolder_path = root + os.sep
                    vfile_name = "'" + file + "'"
                    vfolder_path_full = root + os.sep + file
                    csv_contents = "%s;%s;%s;%s;%s;%s;%s" % (vfolder_path, vfile_name , 'na', 'na', 'na','na', "folder")
                    file_paths.append([csv_contents])
                elif tycsv == "txt":
                    vfolder_path = root + os.sep
                    vfile_name = file
                    vfolder_path_full = root + os.sep + file
                    f_size = os.path.getsize(vfolder_path_full)
                    csv_txt += "%s;%s;%.0f;%.2f;%.2f;%.2f;%s" % (vfolder_path, vfile_name, f_size, f_size/1024, f_size/1048576,f_size/1073741824, "file\n")

        # APPEL FONCTION ECRIT ARRAY TO CSV
        if tycsv == "csv":
            fx_writeCSV(file_paths)
        elif tycsv == "txt":
        # APPEL FONCTION ECRIT STR TO CSV
            fx_writeCSV_str(csv_txt)

        print("job basic listing ok")

    ### ADVANCED LISTING ########
    elif argz == 2:
        print("advanced listing")

        if vvchkboxF == 0:
        #                      *** FOLDERS ONLY ***
            for root, dirs, files in os.walk(Lpath, topdown=False):
            ### calcul taille dossier
                f_size = 0
                for x, y, z in os.walk(root):
                    for i in z:
                        ftmp_che = x + os.sep + i
                        f_size += os.path.getsize(ftmp_che)
                ### ecriture taille dossier
                counter = root.count(os.path.sep) - counterPath
                vfile_name = root
                vfile_name = vfile_name + os.path.sep
                vfile_name = os.path.split(os.path.dirname(vfile_name))[1]
                vfile_name += os.path.sep
                if counter <= f_vscale:
                    csv_txt += "%s;%s;%.0f;%.2f;%.2f;%.2f;%s" % (root, vfile_name, f_size, f_size/1024, f_size/1048576,f_size/1073741824, "folder\n")

            fx_writeCSV_str(csv_txt)
            print("job adv listing folders ok")

        elif vvchkboxF == 1:
        #                    *** FOLDERS AND FILES ONLY ***
            for root, dirs, files in os.walk(Lpath, topdown=False):
            ### calcul taille dossier
                size = 0
                for x, y, z in os.walk(root):
                    for i in z:
                        ftmp_che = x + os.sep + i
                        f_size += os.path.getsize(ftmp_che)
                ### ecriture taille dossier
                counter = root.count(os.path.sep) - counterPath
                vfile_name = root
                vfile_name = vfile_name + os.path.sep
                vfile_name = os.path.split(os.path.dirname(vfile_name))[1]
                vfile_name += os.path.sep
                if counter <= f_vscale:
                    csv_contents += "%s;%s;%.0f;%.2f;%.2f;%.2f;%s\n" % (root, vfile_name, f_size, f_size/1024, f_size/1048576,f_size/1073741824, "folder")

            ### calcul +ecriture taille fichier
            for f in os.listdir(Lpath):
                path = os.path.join(Lpath, f)
                if os.path.isfile(path):
                    f_size = 0
                    f_size = os.path.getsize(path)
                    csv_contents += "%s;%s;%.0f;%.2f;%.2f;%.2f;%s\n" % (path, f, f_size, f_size/1024, f_size/1048576,f_size/1073741824, "file")

            fx_writeCSV_str(csv_contents)
            print("job adv listing files ok")
    return



###############################################################################
###############################################################################
###############################################################################
#####################################GUI#######################################
###############################################################################
###############################################################################
###############################################################################

locale.setlocale(locale.LC_ALL, "")

## MAIN WINDOW
root = Tk()
width  = int(root.winfo_screenwidth()/1.3)
height = int(root.winfo_screenheight()/1.29)
positionRight = int(width/7)
positionDown = int(height/8)

root.geometry('%sx%s+%s+%s' % (width, height, positionRight, positionDown))
root.title("Folders and files tool")

### MAKE TABS
tabCtrl = ttk.Notebook(root)
tab1 = ttk.Frame(tabCtrl)
tab2 = ttk.Frame(tabCtrl)
tab3 = ttk.Frame(tabCtrl)
tab4 = ttk.Frame(tabCtrl)
tabCtrl.add(tab1, text ='    Folders mgmt   ')
tabCtrl.add(tab2, text ='    Renamer   ')
tabCtrl.add(tab3, text ='    Something3   ')
tabCtrl.add(tab4, text ='    More infos   ')
tabCtrl.pack(expand = 1, fill ="both")

### Display Tabs
global vtxt_path
global var_scale
global vchkboxF
global vchkboxD
global vchkboxC
global vcsv_path


#######################///...///...///...///...///#######################
#                               TAB 1                                   #
#######################///...///...///...///...///#######################

### FRAME GLOB
frm10 = tk.Frame(tab1, bg="gray5")
frm10.pack(expand = 1, fill ="both")
# frm10.pack( side = LEFT, expand = True, fill = BOTH)

#######################
### FRAME 11 TOP LABEL
frm11 = tk.Frame(frm10, bg="gray5",highlightbackground="HoneyDew3", highlightcolor="HoneyDew3", highlightthickness=1)

frm11.place(width=475, height=140, x=20, y=20)

# Top label title
tk.Label(frm11,text ="Drive or folders", font=("Tahoma", 14, "normal"), fg='gray80', bg='gray5').place(x=20, y=10)

### LABEL PATH entry box
tk.Label(frm11, text="Enter Path (WD)", fg='gray80', bg='gray5').place(x=20, y=55)

# TEST FOLDER
new_text = "/media/ananas/HDD_500B/TEST_APP3/"

### PATH ENTRY BOX
vtxt_path=tk.StringVar(root,value=new_text) # Value saved here
txt_path = tk.Entry(frm11,width=43, textvariable=vtxt_path, fg='green').place(width=320, height=30, x=140, y=50)


# vtxt_path.set(new_text)
# TEST FOLDER zzz

### LABEL PATH example
tk.Label(frm11, text=r"Ex.: path for Windows: C:\Users\user\Documents\Dossier test", font=("Helvetica", 8, "italic"), fg='gray80', bg='gray5').place(width=320, height=30, x=130, y=80)

tk.Label(frm11, text=r"     path Linux: /home/user/Documents/Test dossier/", font=("Verdana", 8, "italic"), fg='gray80', bg='gray5').place(width=300, height=30, x=123, y=100)

### frame 11
###########################

###########################
### FRAME 12 TOP BUTTON SCAN ALL
frm12 = tk.Frame(frm10, bg="gray5",highlightbackground="HoneyDew3", highlightcolor="HoneyDew3", highlightthickness=1)
frm12.place(width=150, height=40, x=494, y=20)

### button
btn_scanALL = tk.Button(frm12, text="Basic listing",  bg='lightblue4', font=("Verdana", 10,"normal"))

btn_scanALL.pack(expand = 1, fill ="both",padx=0, pady=0)

### BUTTON BROWSE entry fx BASIC LISTING
btn_scanALL['command'] = fx_BasicListing

### frame 12
###########################

###########################
### FRAME 13 TOP BTN SCAN ADV + SLIDER
frm13 = tk.Frame(frm10, bg="gray5",highlightbackground="HoneyDew3", highlightcolor="HoneyDew3", highlightthickness=1, bd= 0)
frm13.place(width=540, height=100, x=494, y=60)

btn_scanADV = tk.Button(frm13, text="Advanced listing", bg='ivory4', font=("Verdana", 10,"normal"))
btn_scanADV.place(width=150, height=40, x=0, y=0)

### BUTTON BROWSE entry fx ADVANCED LISTING
btn_scanADV['command'] = fx_AdvancedListing

### slider
var_scale = tk.DoubleVar()
tk.Label(frm13, text="Subfolders level", font=("Verdana", 8, "italic"), fg='gray80', bg='gray5').place(width=150, height=10, x=0, y=46)

wslide = tk.Scale(frm13,bg='ivory4', fg='grey5', from_=0, to=10, variable = var_scale, orient=tk.HORIZONTAL)
wslide.place(width=150, height=40, x=0, y=58)
wslide.set(3)
### frame 13
###########################

###########################
### FRAME 14 TOP BTN SCAN ADV + CHECKBUTTONS
frm14 = tk.Frame(frm10, bg="gray5",highlightbackground="HoneyDew3", highlightcolor="HoneyDew3", highlightthickness=1, bd= 0)
frm14.place(width=190, height=100, x=645, y=60)

vchkboxF=tk.IntVar()
chkbox=tk.Checkbutton(frm14, highlightthickness=0,bd=0,text="Include files", font=("Verdana", 9, "normal"), fg='gray80', bg='gray5', variable=vchkboxF, offvalue=0, onvalue=1)
chkbox.place(x=0, y=5)

vchkboxD=tk.IntVar()
chkbox=tk.Checkbutton(frm14, highlightthickness=0,bd=0,text="Include modification date", font=("Verdana", 9, "normal"), fg='gray80', bg='gray5', variable=vchkboxD, offvalue=0, onvalue=1)
chkbox.place(x=0, y=25)

vchkboxC=tk.IntVar()
chkbox=tk.Checkbutton(frm14, highlightthickness=0,bd=0,text="Include creation date", font=("Verdana", 9, "normal"), fg='gray80', bg='gray5', variable=vchkboxC, offvalue=0, onvalue=1)
chkbox.place(x=0, y=45)
### frame 14
###########################

###########################
### FRAME 15 TREEVIEW
frm15 = tk.Frame(frm10, bg="gray5",highlightbackground="HoneyDew3", highlightcolor="HoneyDew3", highlightthickness=1, bd= 0)
frm15.place(width=1000, height=350, x=20, y=175)

container = ttk.Frame(frm15)
# container.place(width=1015, height=350, x=20, y=175)
container.pack()

style = ttk.Style()
style.theme_use("clam")
style.configure("Treeview", background="lemonchiffon3",font=('Tahoma', 9),
                fieldbackground="lemonchiffon3", foreground="grey10")

style.configure("Treeview.Heading", font=('Tahoma', 10),foreground='orange4')

tree = ttk.Treeview(frm15, columns=('1', '2', '3', '4', '5', '6', '7'))
vsb = ttk.Scrollbar(orient="vertical", command=tree.yview)
hsb = ttk.Scrollbar(orient="horizontal", command=tree.xview)
vsb.place(x=1021, y=231,width=15, height=307,)
hsb.place(x=22, y=540,width=1000, height=15,)
tree.configure(yscrollcommand=vsb.set, xscrollcommand=hsb.set)
container.grid_columnconfigure(0, weight=1)
container.grid_rowconfigure(0, weight=1)

tree.column('#1', width=180, stretch=YES)
tree.column('#2', width=240, stretch=YES)
tree.column('#3', width=10, stretch=YES)
tree.column('#4', width=5, stretch=YES)
tree.column('#5', width=5, stretch=YES)
tree.column('#6', width=5, stretch=YES)
tree.column('#7', width=25, stretch=YES)

tree.heading('#1', text='Path')
tree.heading('#2', text='Folder-file')
tree.heading('#3', text='Byte')
tree.heading('#4', text='Kb')
tree.heading('#5', text='Mb')
tree.heading('#6', text='Gb')
tree.heading('#7', text='Object type')

tree['show'] = 'headings'

tree.pack(fill=BOTH,expand=1)

### frame 15
###########################

###########################
### FRAME 16 CSV DIAL
frm16 = tk.Frame(frm10, bg="gray5",highlightbackground="HoneyDew3", highlightcolor="HoneyDew3", highlightthickness=1, bd= 0)
frm16.place(width=480, height=30, x=20, y=530)

# csv lbl
tk.Label(frm16,text ="Default folder for csv file (change...)", font=("Verdana", 8, "normal"), fg='gray80', bg='gray5').place(x=10, y=5)

# csv folder entry box
vcsv_path=tk.StringVar() # Value saved here
txt_csv = tk.Entry(frm16,width=43, textvariable=vcsv_path, fg='green').place(width=265, x=210, y=3)
full_path = os.path.realpath(__file__)
new_text = os.path.dirname(full_path) + os.sep + 'csv_folder' + os.sep
vcsv_path.set(new_text)

###############################################################################
###############################################################################
###############################################################################

###############################################################################
###############################################################################
###############################################################################

def fx_FileRen():

    Lpath = vtxt_path3.get()
    print('%s' % Lpath)

    # path WD 2
    if Lpath.endswith(os.path.sep):
       Lpath = Lpath[:-1]

    print('%s' % Lpath)

    msg.showwarning("File names", "File names changed")

    # with open(csv_file_title) as csvfile:
    #     csvreader = csv.reader(csvfile, delimiter=';', quotechar='"')
    #     for row in csvreader:
    #         name = row[0]
    #         new = row[1]
    #         if os.path.exists(name):
    #             os.rename(name, new)
    #         else:
    #             print(name + " does not exist")


###############################################################################

def fx_FoldRen():

    csv_file_title = 'csv_1_baselisting.csv'
    print('%s' % csv_file_title)

    # with open(CSV_FILE,'w', newline ='\n') as f:
    #     write = csv.writer(f, doublequote=True, delimiter=';')
    #     for row in arr:
    #         write.writerows(row)


    msg.showwarning("Folder names", "Folders names changed")

###############################################################################
###############################################################################
###############################################################################

###############################################################################
###############################################################################
###############################################################################


#######################///...///...///...///...///#######################
#                               TAB 2                                   #
#######################///...///...///...///...///#######################

### FRAME GLOB
frm20 = tk.Frame(tab2, bg="gray5")
frm20.pack(expand = 1, fill ="both")
# frm10.pack( side = LEFT, expand = True, fill = BOTH)

#######################
### FRAME 21a FOLDER PATH
frm21a = tk.Frame(frm20, bg="gray5",highlightbackground="HoneyDew3", highlightcolor="HoneyDew3", highlightthickness=1)

frm21a.place(width=950, height=100, x=20, y=45)

# Top label title
tk.Label(frm21a,text ="Folder path to list folders files to csv", font=("Tahoma", 14, "normal"), fg='gray80', bg='gray5').place(x=20, y=10)

vtxt_path1a=tk.StringVar(root, value=new_text) # Value saved here
txt_path1a = tk.Entry(frm21a,width=43, textvariable=vtxt_path1a, fg='blue').place(width=620, height=30, x=140, y=50)

#######################
### FRAME 21 LABEL FILES RENAME
frm21 = tk.Frame(frm20, bg="gray5",highlightbackground="HoneyDew3", highlightcolor="HoneyDew3", highlightthickness=1)

frm21.place(width=775, height=100, x=20, y=185)

# Top label title
tk.Label(frm21,text ="Rename files only from csv file below", font=("Tahoma", 14, "normal"), fg='gray80', bg='gray5').place(x=20, y=10)

### LABEL FILES RENAME entry box
tk.Label(frm21, text="CSV file path", fg='gray80', bg='gray5').place(x=20, y=55)

# TEST FOLDER
full_path = os.path.realpath(__file__)
new_text = os.path.dirname(full_path) + os.sep + 'csv_folder' + os.sep + "csvtxt_1_filenamelisting.csv"
# vtxt_path2.set(new_text)

### PATH ENTRY BOX
vtxt_path2=tk.StringVar(root, value=new_text) # Value saved here
txt_path2 = tk.Entry(frm21,width=43, textvariable=vtxt_path2, fg='blue').place(width=620, height=30, x=140, y=50)

# TEST FOLDER zzz

###########################
### FRAME 22 TOP BUTTON FILE RENAME
frm22 = tk.Frame(frm20, bg="gray5",highlightbackground="HoneyDew3", highlightcolor="HoneyDew3", highlightthickness=1)
frm22.place(width=150, height=40, x=820, y=220)

### button
btn_FileRen = tk.Button(frm22, text="Files rename",  bg='lightblue4', font=("Verdana", 10,"normal"))

btn_FileRen.pack(expand = 1, fill ="both",padx=0, pady=0)

### BUTTON BROWSE entry fx BASIC LISTING
btn_FileRen['command'] = fx_FileRen


#######################
### FRAME 23 LABEL FOLDERS RENAME
frm23 = tk.Frame(frm20, bg="gray5",highlightbackground="HoneyDew3", highlightcolor="HoneyDew3", highlightthickness=1)

frm23.place(width=775, height=100, x=20, y=320)

# Top label title
tk.Label(frm23,text ="Rename folders only from csv file below", font=("Tahoma", 14, "normal"), fg='gray80', bg='gray5').place(x=20, y=10)

### LABEL PATH entry box
tk.Label(frm23, text="CSV file path", fg='gray80', bg='gray5').place(x=20, y=55)

# TEST FOLDER
full_path = os.path.realpath(__file__)
new_text = os.path.dirname(full_path) + os.sep + 'csv_folder' + os.sep + "csvtxt_1_foldernamelisting.csv"
# vtxt_path2.set(new_text)

### PATH ENTRY BOX
vtxt_path3=tk.StringVar(root, value=new_text) # Value saved here
txt_path3 = tk.Entry(frm23,width=43, textvariable=vtxt_path3, fg='brown').place(width=620, height=30, x=140, y=50)

# TEST FOLDER zzz

###########################
### FRAME 24 BUTTON FOLDERS RENAME
frm24 = tk.Frame(frm20, bg="gray5",highlightbackground="HoneyDew3", highlightcolor="HoneyDew3", highlightthickness=1)
frm24.place(width=150, height=40, x=820, y=345)

### button
btn_FoldRen = tk.Button(frm24, text="Folders rename",  bg='brown', font=("Verdana", 10,"normal"))

btn_FoldRen.pack(expand = 1, fill ="both",padx=0, pady=0)

### BUTTON BROWSE entry fx BASIC LISTING
btn_FoldRen['command'] = fx_FoldRen


#######################///...///...///...///...///#######################
#                               TAB 3                                   #
#######################///...///...///...///...///#######################




#######################///...///...///...///...///#######################
#                               zZZZz                                   #
#######################///...///...///...///...///#######################

if __name__ == '__main__':
    root.mainloop()


From barpasc at yahoo.com  Fri Jan  8 18:10:40 2021
From: barpasc at yahoo.com (pascal z)
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 2021 15:10:40 -0800 (PST)
Subject: learning python building 2nd app, need advices
In-Reply-To: <3170f050-4d37-4a64-96cb-f3718a3ef2aan@googlegroups.com>
References: <3170f050-4d37-4a64-96cb-f3718a3ef2aan@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <6da92d5c-29c9-45b6-9078-5f1fef7a1b34n@googlegroups.com>

any way to attach a file because I loose indentation?

From rshepard at appl-ecosys.com  Fri Jan  8 18:16:23 2021
From: rshepard at appl-ecosys.com (Rich Shepard)
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 2021 15:16:23 -0800 (PST)
Subject: tkinter: creating/attaching menubar to top level window [RESOLVED]
In-Reply-To: <rtalh2$puu$1@dont-email.me>
References: <alpine.LNX.2.20.2101081336320.25343@salmo.appl-ecosys.com>
 <mailman.680.1610142464.7193.python-list@python.org>
 <rtalh2$puu$1@dont-email.me>
Message-ID: <alpine.LNX.2.20.2101081513320.25343@salmo.appl-ecosys.com>

On Fri, 8 Jan 2021, Christian Gollwitzer wrote:

> It is a simple typo, remove the dot.
> 	self['menu'] = menubar
> It will then stop at the add_cascade, fix it like this:

Christian,

Well, I totally missed that because I'm used to adding a period after each
self. Your fresh eyes saw what I kept missing,

> menubar.add_cascade(menu=self.menu_file, label='File')

I was going to add the 'self' there when I found what stopped the processing
before it.

Many thanks.

Stay well and carpe weekend,

Rich

From rshepard at appl-ecosys.com  Fri Jan  8 18:17:28 2021
From: rshepard at appl-ecosys.com (Rich Shepard)
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 2021 15:17:28 -0800 (PST)
Subject: tkinter: creating/attaching menubar to top level window
In-Reply-To: <67d6015c-61f8-a28e-f499-0d84acf80701@Damon-Family.org>
References: <alpine.LNX.2.20.2101081336320.25343@salmo.appl-ecosys.com>
 <67d6015c-61f8-a28e-f499-0d84acf80701@Damon-Family.org>
Message-ID: <alpine.LNX.2.20.2101081516560.25343@salmo.appl-ecosys.com>

On Fri, 8 Jan 2021, Richard Damon wrote:

> It could be either:
> self.menu = menubar
> or
> self['menu'] = menubar

Got it, Richard. Removed the period after 'self'.

Thanks,

Rich

From barpasc at yahoo.com  Fri Jan  8 18:18:54 2021
From: barpasc at yahoo.com (pascal z)
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 2021 15:18:54 -0800 (PST)
Subject: learning python building 2nd app, need advices
In-Reply-To: <3170f050-4d37-4a64-96cb-f3718a3ef2aan@googlegroups.com>
References: <3170f050-4d37-4a64-96cb-f3718a3ef2aan@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <5e417ce3-3419-4beb-99de-fdd24dfa5d44n@googlegroups.com>

And something important to this app, is about listing files, how to avoid listing small application files parts .ini and binary files so if it's an application it would tell the size of of the folder of this application and not list the content or make it optionnal?

From greg.ewing at canterbury.ac.nz  Fri Jan  8 19:16:40 2021
From: greg.ewing at canterbury.ac.nz (Greg Ewing)
Date: Sat, 9 Jan 2021 13:16:40 +1300
Subject: learning python building 2nd app, need advices
In-Reply-To: <6da92d5c-29c9-45b6-9078-5f1fef7a1b34n@googlegroups.com>
References: <3170f050-4d37-4a64-96cb-f3718a3ef2aan@googlegroups.com>
 <6da92d5c-29c9-45b6-9078-5f1fef7a1b34n@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <i5sav8Feqb0U1@mid.individual.net>

On 9/01/21 12:10 pm, pascal z wrote:
> any way to attach a file because I loose indentation?

Indentation usually makes it through here if you indent with
spaces rather than tabs.

-- 
Greg

From Richard at Damon-Family.org  Fri Jan  8 20:27:29 2021
From: Richard at Damon-Family.org (Richard Damon)
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 2021 20:27:29 -0500
Subject: learning python building 2nd app, need advices
In-Reply-To: <6da92d5c-29c9-45b6-9078-5f1fef7a1b34n@googlegroups.com>
References: <3170f050-4d37-4a64-96cb-f3718a3ef2aan@googlegroups.com>
 <6da92d5c-29c9-45b6-9078-5f1fef7a1b34n@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <a7b9a82c-6351-4df5-59eb-f12c71c62985@Damon-Family.org>

On 1/8/21 6:10 PM, pascal z via Python-list wrote:
> any way to attach a file because I loose indentation?

Don't post via googlegroups, it thinks the world is HTML, which treats
spaces in a funny matter.

-- 
Richard Damon


From lkrupp at invalid.pssw.com.invalid  Sat Jan  9 00:33:51 2021
From: lkrupp at invalid.pssw.com.invalid (Louis Krupp)
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 2021 22:33:51 -0700
Subject: Remove duplicate values from dictionary without removing key
In-Reply-To: <mailman.674.1610129401.7193.python-list@python.org>
References: <CAAKRE731rDNsrG+5_X5jJBPwRbaz6zkBC6FHogoMFY1aEk2ghg@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.674.1610129401.7193.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <3fbKH.81490$ay6.60684@fx03.iad>

On 1/8/2021 2:56 AM, Umar Draz wrote:
> I want to replace duplicate values with empty "" in my dictionary. Here is
> my original dictionary.
>
> items = [
>      {'client': 'xyz', 'name': "Ilir Meta", 'rating': 0.06, 'total': 100},
>      {'client': 'xyz','name': "Abdelmadjid Tebboune", 'rating': 4.0,
> 'total': 100},
>      {'client': 'xyz','name': "Alexander Lukashenko", 'rating': 3.1,
> 'total': 100},
>      {'client': 'xyz', 'name': "Miguel D?az-Canel", 'rating': 0.32,
> 'total': 100},
>      {'client': 'udz', 'name': "Ilir Meta", 'rating': 0.06, 'total': 150},
>      {'client': 'udz', 'name': "Abdelmadjid Tebboune", 'rating': 4.0,
> 'total': 100},
>      {'client': 'udz', 'name': "Alexander Lukashenko", 'rating': 3.1,
> 'total': 150},
>      {'client': 'udz', 'name': "Miguel D?az-Canel", 'rating': 0.32, 'total': 150}
> ]
>
>
> Now I want to create another dict with like this
>
> items = [
>      {'client': 'xyz', 'name': "Ilir Meta", 'rating': 0.06, 'total': 100},
>      {'client': '','name': "Abdelmadjid Tebboune", 'rating': 4.0, 'total': ''},
>      {'client': '','name': "Alexander Lukashenko", 'rating': 3.1, 'total': ''},
>      {'client': '', 'name': "Miguel D?az-Canel", 'rating': 0.32, 'total': ''},
>      {'client': 'udz', 'name': "Ilir Meta", 'rating': 0.06, 'total': 150},
>      {'client': '', 'name': "Abdelmadjid Tebboune", 'rating': 4.0, 'total': ''},
>      {'client': '', 'name': "Alexander Lukashenko", 'rating': 3.1, 'total': ''},
>      {'client': '', 'name': "Miguel D?az-Canel", 'rating': 0.32, 'total': ''}
> ]
>
>
> Would you please help me how I can do this? and if this is not the right
> place to ask this question then please help me where I can ask this? I had
> tried stackoverflow but that not worked.

items isn't a dictionary; as MRAB mentioned, it's a list of 
dictionaries. Each dictionary in items looks like a database record with 
fields (client, name, rating, and total).

When you say you want to replace duplicate client fields by "", it 
almost looks like you're getting ready to print a report that looks 
something like this:

xyz??? Ilir Meta????????????????????????????? 0.06??? 100
 ????????? Abdelmadjid Tebboune??? 4.00 ?? 100
 ????????? Alexander Lukashenko???? 3.10
...

where the report will look better when duplicate client values aren't 
printed.

If that's the case, there are almost certainly better ways to do it. 
Changing values in items might have unforeseen consequences, since once 
duplicate client fields have been wiped out, there's no way to retrieve 
items[1]["client"] without looking at items[0]. And if the list of items 
is ever reordered, some of the client fields will be lost for good.

I hope this helps.

Louis

From a.h.jaffe at gmail.com  Fri Jan  8 16:55:59 2021
From: a.h.jaffe at gmail.com (Andrew Jaffe)
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 2021 21:55:59 +0000
Subject: better handling of "pinned" modules?
In-Reply-To: <CAPTjJmqaN2BmrZt3dkbhNRe42PYA2pkHzQ1SLoGbzD3xePA=iQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <rt9jf2$d1n$1@ciao.gmane.io>
 <CAPTjJmqaN2BmrZt3dkbhNRe42PYA2pkHzQ1SLoGbzD3xePA=iQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <rtakdg$nj0$1@ciao.gmane.io>

On 08/01/2021 18:21, Chris Angelico wrote:
> On Sat, Jan 9, 2021 at 5:18 AM Andrew Jaffe <a.h.jaffe at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Hi,
>>
>> I don't know if this makes more sense here or on "python-ideas" (or
>> elsewhere?) but I'll try this first:
>>
>> I am starting to encounter more and more instances of packages requiring
>> older, pinned, versions of modules, and this is occasionally actually
>> starting to cause conflicts.
>>
> 
> The first thing to do is to see if those packages ACTUALLY need older
> versions of those dependencies. There's a good chance they don't.
> 
> To avoid creating this sort of problem, don't depend on a highly
> specific version of things; just depend on a minimum version, and if
> there's a problem (ONLY if there's a problem), a maximum version.

Well, sure. But there's still the "aesthetic" problem that `pip[3] 
check` reports a problem in such a case, and the real (albeit 
correctable) problem that `pip[3] install --upgrade` will occasionally 
automatically downgrade required packages.

So perhaps my original query about whether there could be a way to 
actually solve this problem is still potentially interesting/useful.

AndrewJ

> ChrisA
> 



From auriocus at gmx.de  Sat Jan  9 02:51:51 2021
From: auriocus at gmx.de (Christian Gollwitzer)
Date: Sat, 9 Jan 2021 08:51:51 +0100
Subject: dayofyear is not great when going into a new year
In-Reply-To: <eli$2101051756@qaz.wtf>
References: <i5k21eFq2qnU1@mid.individual.net>
 <CAPTjJmrB8LDCP+05D6OurRcSw3XeDg1jX17AcddCZ2CQ=zWU-w@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.633.1609882091.7193.python-list@python.org> <eli$2101051756@qaz.wtf>
Message-ID: <rtbnao$gn8$1@dont-email.me>

Am 05.01.21 um 23:56 schrieb Eli the Bearded:
> Elijah
> ------
> also finds "week starts on Monday" to be oddball about ISO-8601
> 

In Europe, the week starts on Monday - hence, Saturday and Sunday are 
the last days of the week or the "weekend". Starting on Sunday is weird 
for us, because then the weekend is split into the first and last day of 
the week (?) - even if, historically, the week was the time from Sunday 
to Sunday.


	Christian

From mstemper at gmail.com  Sat Jan  9 09:24:58 2021
From: mstemper at gmail.com (Michael F. Stemper)
Date: Sat, 9 Jan 2021 08:24:58 -0600
Subject: primitive password cracker
In-Reply-To: <i5pn3lFtfd5U1@mid.individual.net>
References: <slrnrvdlvd.37n.Bischoop@vimart.net>
 <CAPTjJmrtJ66X-a3_93VHcBfi1o=7PRNm99LPBfA0djxhSjiypQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.656.1610020631.7193.python-list@python.org>
 <slrnrve5g0.5gp.Bischoop@vimart.net>
 <CAPTjJmpMY-kP3NmBQrJLXwB_F0wFnmExCC50n9H2uOfquAk0WA@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.663.1610033143.7193.python-list@python.org>
 <slrnrvef38.5gp.Bischoop@vimart.net>
 <fdacba66-cb13-1b3c-cc8a-08dfdf8be67f@DancesWithMice.info>
 <mailman.669.1610043859.7193.python-list@python.org>
 <i5pn3lFtfd5U1@mid.individual.net>
Message-ID: <rtcebs$8oa$1@dont-email.me>

Is this "code golf"? Can anybody play? Here's another approach:

Define a function like this:

def embiggen(wordlist):
   alpha = 'abc'
   return [x for x in alpha] + [x+y for x in alpha for y in wordlist]

It makes every word in its input one letter longer in each possible
way, and returns all of the words thus created as well as all of the
one-letter words. (I'm using a very short alphabet, due to the
exponential growth.)

In REPL:
 >>> words = []
 >>> words = embiggen(words)
 >>> words
['a', 'b', 'c']
 >>> words = embiggen(words)
 >>> words
['a', 'b', 'c', 'aa', 'ab', 'ac', 'ba', 'bb', 'bc', 'ca', 'cb', 'cc']
 >>> words = embiggen(words)
 >>> words
['a', 'b', 'c', 'aa', 'ab', 'ac', 'aaa', 'aab', 'aac', 'aba', 'abb', 
'abc', 'aca', 'acb', 'acc', 'ba', 'bb', 'bc', 'baa', 'bab', 'bac', 
'bba', 'bbb', 'bbc', 'bca', 'bcb', 'bcc', 'ca', 'cb', 'cc', 'caa', 
'cab', 'cac', 'cba', 'cbb', 'cbc', 'cca', 'ccb', 'ccc']
 >>> words = embiggen(words)
 >>> len(words)
120
 >>>

It's obvious that this could be called from a for-loop with no
modification, which I believe is what the OP wanted.

-- 
Michael F. Stemper
Deuteronomy 24:17

From mstemper at gmail.com  Sat Jan  9 09:28:53 2021
From: mstemper at gmail.com (Michael F. Stemper)
Date: Sat, 9 Jan 2021 08:28:53 -0600
Subject: dayofyear is not great when going into a new year
In-Reply-To: <rtbnao$gn8$1@dont-email.me>
References: <i5k21eFq2qnU1@mid.individual.net>
 <CAPTjJmrB8LDCP+05D6OurRcSw3XeDg1jX17AcddCZ2CQ=zWU-w@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.633.1609882091.7193.python-list@python.org> <eli$2101051756@qaz.wtf>
 <rtbnao$gn8$1@dont-email.me>
Message-ID: <rtcej5$8oa$2@dont-email.me>

On 09/01/2021 01.51, Christian Gollwitzer wrote:
> Am 05.01.21 um 23:56 schrieb Eli the Bearded:
>> Elijah
>> ------
>> also finds "week starts on Monday" to be oddball about ISO-8601
>>
> 
> In Europe, the week starts on Monday - hence, Saturday and Sunday are 
> the last days of the week or the "weekend". Starting on Sunday is weird 
> for us, because then the weekend is split into the first and last day of 
> the week (?)

A week is like a piece of string. It has two ends.


-- 
Michael F. Stemper
Deuteronomy 24:17

From rosuav at gmail.com  Sat Jan  9 11:40:39 2021
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Sun, 10 Jan 2021 03:40:39 +1100
Subject: dayofyear is not great when going into a new year
In-Reply-To: <rtcej5$8oa$2@dont-email.me>
References: <i5k21eFq2qnU1@mid.individual.net>
 <CAPTjJmrB8LDCP+05D6OurRcSw3XeDg1jX17AcddCZ2CQ=zWU-w@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.633.1609882091.7193.python-list@python.org> <eli$2101051756@qaz.wtf>
 <rtbnao$gn8$1@dont-email.me> <rtcej5$8oa$2@dont-email.me>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmrRNh7cj3P6weeedKDKw1Fc9arcDQ-DxqKoP+6k9X_c0A@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Jan 10, 2021 at 1:31 AM Michael F. Stemper <mstemper at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> On 09/01/2021 01.51, Christian Gollwitzer wrote:
> > Am 05.01.21 um 23:56 schrieb Eli the Bearded:
> >> Elijah
> >> ------
> >> also finds "week starts on Monday" to be oddball about ISO-8601
> >>
> >
> > In Europe, the week starts on Monday - hence, Saturday and Sunday are
> > the last days of the week or the "weekend". Starting on Sunday is weird
> > for us, because then the weekend is split into the first and last day of
> > the week (?)
>
> A week is like a piece of string. It has two ends.
>

And a long weekend is like asking "how long is a piece of string"?

ChrisA

From Bischoop at vimart.net  Sat Jan  9 22:29:37 2021
From: Bischoop at vimart.net (Bischoop)
Date: Sun, 10 Jan 2021 03:29:37 -0000 (UTC)
Subject: binascii.b2a vs ord()
Message-ID: <slrnrvkt51.llt.Bischoop@vimart.net>

I wanted to learn about conversion string to Ascii.
So I learn about binascii.b2a but because the output wasn't what I
wanted got deeper and found out about ord(c) and actually that's what
I'expected.
So what's that binascii and why I cant convert ascii that I got from ord
to string by using char, instead I'm getting some strings in weird
coding.


import binascii
Ttext = b'This is a string'
text2 = 'This is a string'
data = binascii.b2a_uu(text)
print(f' Conversion byte string to ascii by binascii:\n {data}')
res = ' '.join(format(ord(i), 'b') for i in text2)
print(f'Conversion string to Ascii by ord:\n {res}')

b = binascii.a2b_uu(data)
print(f' Conversion ascii to String by binascii:\n {b}')
k= res.split(' ')
for i in k:
   w= k.index(i)
   k[w]= int(i)

c = ' '.join(chr(int(val)) for val in res.split(' '))
print(f'Conversion Ascii to string by chr: \n {c}')


#output:
Conversion byte string to ascii by binascii:
 b"05&AI<R!I<R!A('-T<FEN9P  \n"
Conversion string to Ascii by ord:
 1010100 1101000 1101001 1110011 100000 1101001 1110011 100000 1100001 100000 1110011 1110100 1110010 1101001 1101110 1100111
 Conversion ascii to String by binascii:
 b'This is a string'
Conversion Ascii to string by chr: 
 ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?



 --
 Thanks

From rosuav at gmail.com  Sat Jan  9 22:37:09 2021
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Sun, 10 Jan 2021 14:37:09 +1100
Subject: binascii.b2a vs ord()
In-Reply-To: <slrnrvkt51.llt.Bischoop@vimart.net>
References: <slrnrvkt51.llt.Bischoop@vimart.net>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmopF4cdASehqKSoef_Nn6WQA5o+kh+1LnNb7yvGQsxdsQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Jan 10, 2021 at 2:31 PM Bischoop <Bischoop at vimart.net> wrote:
>
> I wanted to learn about conversion string to Ascii.
> So I learn about binascii.b2a but because the output wasn't what I
> wanted got deeper and found out about ord(c) and actually that's what
> I'expected.
> So what's that binascii and why I cant convert ascii that I got from ord
> to string by using char, instead I'm getting some strings in weird
> coding.
>
>
> import binascii
> Ttext = b'This is a string'
> text2 = 'This is a string'
> data = binascii.b2a_uu(text)
> print(f' Conversion byte string to ascii by binascii:\n {data}')
> res = ' '.join(format(ord(i), 'b') for i in text2)
> print(f'Conversion string to Ascii by ord:\n {res}')
>
> b = binascii.a2b_uu(data)
> print(f' Conversion ascii to String by binascii:\n {b}')
> k= res.split(' ')
> for i in k:
>    w= k.index(i)
>    k[w]= int(i)
>
> c = ' '.join(chr(int(val)) for val in res.split(' '))
> print(f'Conversion Ascii to string by chr: \n {c}')
>
>
> #output:
> Conversion byte string to ascii by binascii:
>  b"05&AI<R!I<R!A('-T<FEN9P  \n"
> Conversion string to Ascii by ord:
>  1010100 1101000 1101001 1110011 100000 1101001 1110011 100000 1100001 100000 1110011 1110100 1110010 1101001 1101110 1100111
>  Conversion ascii to String by binascii:
>  b'This is a string'
> Conversion Ascii to string by chr:
>  ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?
>

Trace it through, step by step. You have a series of ASCII values,
represented in binary, and then you call int() on each of them. What
sort of numbers will you get?

Then look at what chr() does when given those sorts of numbers.

BTW, it may be helpful to look at the repr of the final string, rather
than simply printing it out. (It also may be unhelpful. If so, don't
worry about it.)

Have fun!

ChrisA

From martin.schoon at gmail.com  Sat Jan  9 17:51:09 2021
From: martin.schoon at gmail.com (Martin =?UTF-8?Q?Sch=C3=B6=C3=B6n?=)
Date: 9 Jan 2021 22:51:09 GMT
Subject: dayofyear is not great when going into a new year
References: <i5k21eFq2qnU1@mid.individual.net>
 <CAPTjJmrB8LDCP+05D6OurRcSw3XeDg1jX17AcddCZ2CQ=zWU-w@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.633.1609882091.7193.python-list@python.org>
 <eli$2101051756@qaz.wtf> <rtbnao$gn8$1@dont-email.me>
 <rtcej5$8oa$2@dont-email.me>
Message-ID: <i5uqatFtsjsU1@mid.individual.net>

Den 2021-01-09 skrev Michael F. Stemper <mstemper at gmail.com>:
>
> A week is like a piece of string. It has two ends.
>
The control line of the main sheet traveler on my boat is spliced into
an endless loop.
http://hem.bredband.net/b262106/pages/controls/index.html

I am glad work weeks are not like that :-)

/Martin

From greg.ewing at canterbury.ac.nz  Sun Jan 10 05:09:14 2021
From: greg.ewing at canterbury.ac.nz (Greg Ewing)
Date: Sun, 10 Jan 2021 23:09:14 +1300
Subject: binascii.b2a vs ord()
In-Reply-To: <slrnrvkt51.llt.Bischoop@vimart.net>
References: <slrnrvkt51.llt.Bischoop@vimart.net>
Message-ID: <i6022cF6o7mU1@mid.individual.net>

On 10/01/21 4:29 pm, Bischoop wrote:

> So what's that binascii

The binascii module contains implementations of various ways of
encoding *binary* data as ascii text. The one you're using there
is a format called "uuencode"; it was frequently used in the
days before the WWW when people often sent arbitrary files to
each other by email. There's another one called "base64" which
is often used behind the scenes nowadays when you attach a file
to an email message.

If you're trying to convert between unicode strings (all text
strings are unicode in Python 3) and ascii byte strings, the
binascii module is NOT what you want.

Instead, you should be using the encode and decode methods of
the string objects themselves:

Python 3.8.2 (default, Mar 23 2020, 11:36:18)
[Clang 8.1.0 (clang-802.0.42)] on darwin
Type "help", "copyright", "credits" or "license" for more information.
 >>> s = 'Hello World'
 >>> s
'Hello World'
 >>> b = s.encode('ascii')
 >>> b
b'Hello World'
 >>> s2 = b.decode('ascii')
 >>> s2
'Hello World'

-- 
Greg


From Bischoop at vimart.net  Sun Jan 10 10:39:56 2021
From: Bischoop at vimart.net (Bischoop)
Date: Sun, 10 Jan 2021 15:39:56 -0000 (UTC)
Subject: primitive password cracker
References: <slrnrvdlvd.37n.Bischoop@vimart.net>
 <enumeration-20210108044514@ram.dialup.fu-berlin.de>
Message-ID: <slrnrvm7uc.25j.Bischoop@vimart.net>

On 2021-01-08, Stefan Ram <ram at zedat.fu-berlin.de> wrote:
> Bischoop <Bischoop at vimart.net> writes:
>>What I want to learn is if I need get for example four combinations, so
>>how to get in a loop first letter 'a',then another step'a' and again 'a'
>>and 'a', to have 'aaaa' later on'abaa' etc.
>
>   I can only guess what you want, maybe something like
>
> word = []
> p = 0
>
> def inc_at( position ):
>     word[ position ]= chr( ord( word[ position ])+ 1 )
>
> while True:
>     if len( word )< p + 1:
>         word =[ "a" ]+ word
>     print( "".join( word ))
>     p = 0
>     o = len( word )- 1 - p
>     inc_at( o )
>     while p < len( word ) and word[ o ]== '{':
>         word[ o ]= "a"
>         p += 1
>         o -= 1
>         if p < len( word ): inc_at( o )
>
>   ?
>
>


Yes, it must generate 4 characters long all combination of alphabet,
equivalent to: s = list(''.join(seq) for seq initertools.product(string.ascii_lowercase, repeat=4)).
I must say that's quite coding you've done.

--
Thanks



From redhog.org at gmail.com  Sun Jan 10 13:59:33 2021
From: redhog.org at gmail.com (=?UTF-8?B?RWdpbCBNw7ZsbGVy?=)
Date: Sun, 10 Jan 2021 10:59:33 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Pieshell: Combination of the expressiveness of shell pipelines and
 the power of python iterators
Message-ID: <c65ebc34-ed0d-4912-8563-66bdf42df2fbn@googlegroups.com>

Hi!

I've written a python package that lets you combine python code and shell pipelines:

Pieshell is a Python shell environment that combines the expressiveness of shell pipelines with the prower of python iterators.

It can be used in two major ways:

As an interactive shell replacing e.g. bash
As an ordinary python module replacing e.g. subprocess.Popen

    >>> list(ls("-a") | grep("-e", ".py"))
    ["foo.py", "bar.py"]

Shell pipelines, like the one above, are ordinary Python iterator objects.

Git repo: https://github.com/redhog/pieshell
Installation: pip install pieshell
Start the interactive shell: pieshell

Hope you found this interesting,
RedHog

From Bischoop at vimart.net  Sun Jan 10 09:16:26 2021
From: Bischoop at vimart.net (Bischoop)
Date: Sun, 10 Jan 2021 14:16:26 -0000 (UTC)
Subject: binascii.b2a vs ord()
References: <slrnrvkt51.llt.Bischoop@vimart.net>
 <CAPTjJmopF4cdASehqKSoef_Nn6WQA5o+kh+1LnNb7yvGQsxdsQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.689.1610249842.7193.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <slrnrvm31q.25j.Bischoop@vimart.net>

On 2021-01-10, Chris Angelico <rosuav at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Trace it through, step by step. You have a series of ASCII values,
> represented in binary, and then you call int() on each of them. What
> sort of numbers will you get?
>

I'm kinda lost here about what sort of numbers I get, its class 'int'.

> Then look at what chr() does when given those sorts of numbers.
>
> BTW, it may be helpful to look at the repr of the final string, rather
> than simply printing it out. (It also may be unhelpful. If so, don't
> worry about it.)
>

That was quite interesting

text = b'This is a string'
text2 = 'This is a string'

res = ' '.join(format(ord(i), 'b') for i in text2)
k= res.split(' ')
for i in k:
   w= k.index(i)
   k[w]= int(i)

s = k[0]
print(type(s))
print(f'{s!r}')

l = text[0]

print(f'{l!r}')

# output I've got:

<class 'int'>
1010100
84

--
Thanks



From rosuav at gmail.com  Sun Jan 10 15:24:46 2021
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 2021 07:24:46 +1100
Subject: binascii.b2a vs ord()
In-Reply-To: <aiimvflsomrgsubf6qcrocc4b3vcr5sts8@4ax.com>
References: <slrnrvkt51.llt.Bischoop@vimart.net>
 <aiimvflsomrgsubf6qcrocc4b3vcr5sts8@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmqx9eMK8j7sYqBBJ1Ef3X9s2LTv5nOQ+fuo0HMg8yDOPA@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Jan 11, 2021 at 7:09 AM Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed at ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>
> On Sun, 10 Jan 2021 03:29:37 -0000 (UTC), Bischoop <Bischoop at vimart.net>
> declaimed the following:
>
> >I wanted to learn about conversion string to Ascii.
> >So I learn about binascii.b2a but because the output wasn't what I
> >wanted got deeper and found out about ord(c) and actually that's what
> >I'expected.
> >So what's that binascii and why I cant convert ascii that I got from ord
> >to string by using char, instead I'm getting some strings in weird
> >coding.
> >
> >
> >import binascii
> >Ttext = b'This is a string'
> >text2 = 'This is a string'
>
>         Item: this is a Unicode string. Python Unicode strings are only 1-byte
> per character IF all characters are in the 7-bit ASCII range. If you have
> any extended characters (which would, say, be one byte in ISO-Latin-1) they
> could turn the entire Unicode string into 2-byte per character (and really
> expanded sets could be 3 or 4 bytes per character).
>

Irrelevant - they're not "one byte per character" except in terms of
memory usage, which isn't coming up here. When you call ord() on a
character, you get the ordinal of that character, and the internal
representation doesn't matter.

ChrisA

From rosuav at gmail.com  Sun Jan 10 15:29:57 2021
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 2021 07:29:57 +1100
Subject: binascii.b2a vs ord()
In-Reply-To: <slrnrvm31q.25j.Bischoop@vimart.net>
References: <slrnrvkt51.llt.Bischoop@vimart.net>
 <CAPTjJmopF4cdASehqKSoef_Nn6WQA5o+kh+1LnNb7yvGQsxdsQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.689.1610249842.7193.python-list@python.org>
 <slrnrvm31q.25j.Bischoop@vimart.net>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmp2ZtA3mXR57DC6FPxgy6a=udTEQGY+bPn1dqo4E=BN=A@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Jan 11, 2021 at 7:09 AM Bischoop <Bischoop at vimart.net> wrote:
>
> On 2021-01-10, Chris Angelico <rosuav at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > Trace it through, step by step. You have a series of ASCII values,
> > represented in binary, and then you call int() on each of them. What
> > sort of numbers will you get?
> >
>
> I'm kinda lost here about what sort of numbers I get, its class 'int'.

Yep. Here, let me walk through one of the examples.

text2 = 'This is a string'
res = ' '.join(format(ord(i), 'b') for i in text2)

The first character is 'T', and ord('T') is 84. Formatting that in
binary gives '1010100'.

c = ' '.join(chr(int(val)) for val in res.split(' '))

You then convert the string '1010100' into an integer. That doesn't
give you the integer 84; it gives you the integer 1010100 (a bit over
a million).

Then you call chr() on that, which gives you the character with the
ordinal of 1,010,100 - or in hex, U+F69B4. That's not a well-defined
character (it's actually in a private-use area), so it displays as a
little box.

To undo the conversion from integer to binary, you have to interpret
the digits as binary. You can do that with int('1010100', base=2),
which will give back the integer 84.

Hope that helps!

ChrisA

From python at mrabarnett.plus.com  Sun Jan 10 16:10:20 2021
From: python at mrabarnett.plus.com (MRAB)
Date: Sun, 10 Jan 2021 21:10:20 +0000
Subject: binascii.b2a vs ord()
In-Reply-To: <aiimvflsomrgsubf6qcrocc4b3vcr5sts8@4ax.com>
References: <slrnrvkt51.llt.Bischoop@vimart.net>
 <aiimvflsomrgsubf6qcrocc4b3vcr5sts8@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <841f149d-20ee-7937-8d62-37fabf17c704@mrabarnett.plus.com>

On 2021-01-10 18:50, Dennis Lee Bieber wrote:
> On Sun, 10 Jan 2021 03:29:37 -0000 (UTC), Bischoop <Bischoop at vimart.net>
> declaimed the following:
> 
>>I wanted to learn about conversion string to Ascii.
>>So I learn about binascii.b2a but because the output wasn't what I
>>wanted got deeper and found out about ord(c) and actually that's what
>>I'expected.
>>So what's that binascii and why I cant convert ascii that I got from ord
>>to string by using char, instead I'm getting some strings in weird
>>coding.
>>
>>
>>import binascii
>>Ttext = b'This is a string'
>>text2 = 'This is a string'
> 
> 	Item: this is a Unicode string. Python Unicode strings are only 1-byte
> per character IF all characters are in the 7-bit ASCII range. If you have
> any extended characters (which would, say, be one byte in ISO-Latin-1) they
> could turn the entire Unicode string into 2-byte per character (and really
> expanded sets could be 3 or 4 bytes per character).
> 
[snip]

Are you confusing the internal representation in CPython 3.3+ with UTF-8?

In CPython 3.3+, Unicode strings are stored as 1 byte per codepoint if 
all of the codepoints are U+0000..U+00FF, else as 2 bytes per codepoint 
if all are U+010000..U+10FFFF, else as 4 bytes per codepoint.

But that's an implementation detail.

From george at fischhof.hu  Mon Jan 11 06:34:26 2021
From: george at fischhof.hu (George Fischhof)
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 2021 12:34:26 +0100
Subject: [Python-authors] Query
In-Reply-To: <VE1PR09MB3024B3E7D288FF73018A27078AAE0@VE1PR09MB3024.eurprd09.prod.outlook.com>
References: <VE1PR09MB3024B3E7D288FF73018A27078AAE0@VE1PR09MB3024.eurprd09.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <CAFwcP0gU9b7p3pfzyeYV5bMktDoPz4oP3iAZ6rYRe_kSPWD1WA@mail.gmail.com>

Eduardo Em?n Mu?oz <eledu998 at hotmail.com> ezt ?rta (id?pont: 2021. jan. 8.,
P, 17:23):

> Dear Srs,
>
>      I apologize if this is not the right place to ask this question, I am
> Biologist teaching Python language (in spanish)  focused in Molecular
> Biology.
>
>      People interested often ask me if my classes/course has a valid
> certification and I have to say no, so my question is :
>
>     What can I do for provide a valid diploma with the Python logo to my
> students? I mean, how I would be allowed to give a valid
> Python logo on my students diploma? I have tried to contact local
> institutions like Biology's college, Education Ministry , etc but no
> success at all.
>
> Many thanks for your time reading this email, sorry for my poor english
> and thanks in advance.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Python-authors mailing list
> Python-authors at python.org
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-authors


Hi,

the good forum for similar questions is  python-list at python.org mail list -
I think ;-)

Right _now_ Microsoft created a Python exam, I do not know how much is that
appreciated, or accepted, but there is.
As I know this is the only one somewhat standardised exam now.
Of course there are several institutes holding Python course and exam

BR,
George

From barpasc at yahoo.com  Mon Jan 11 06:46:56 2021
From: barpasc at yahoo.com (pascal z)
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 2021 03:46:56 -0800 (PST)
Subject: learning python building 2nd app, need advices
In-Reply-To: <mailman.684.1610155654.7193.python-list@python.org>
References: <3170f050-4d37-4a64-96cb-f3718a3ef2aan@googlegroups.com>
 <a7b9a82c-6351-4df5-59eb-f12c71c62985@Damon-Family.org>
 <6da92d5c-29c9-45b6-9078-5f1fef7a1b34n@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.684.1610155654.7193.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <37329709-b300-4c1e-af88-8ed0d6de588bn@googlegroups.com>

tab to space on linux is not something easy to do, I had to launch windows and use notepad++. Anyway, indentation should all be converted to spaces below

#!/usr/bin/env python3
# -*- coding: utf-8 -*-

import locale
import os
import csv
from tkinter import messagebox as msg

try:
    from tkinter import *
    import ttk
except:
    import tkinter as tk #GUI package
    from tkinter import ttk


def fx_BasicListing():
    #argx mode = 1 pour basic listing
    #argx mode = 2 pour adv listing
    # "txt" pour type enreg csv txt/csv
    # tree.delete(*tree.get_children())
    fx_browseFoldersZ(1)
    return

def fx_AdvancedListing():
    #argx mode = 1 pour basic listing
    #argx mode = 2 pour adv listing
    # fx_browseFoldersZ(2,"txt")
    # tree.destroy()
    #tree.delete(*tree.get_children())
    fx_browseFoldersZ(2)
    return

def fx_browseFoldersZ(argy):
    #argx mode = 1 pour basic listing
    #argx mode = 2 pour adv listing
    # "txt" pour type enreg csv txt/csv
    tree.delete(*tree.get_children())
    fx_browseFolders(argy,"txt")

###############################################################################
###############################################################################
###############################################################################

def fx_writeCSV(*arr):

    csv_file_title = 'csv_1_baselisting.csv'
    # csv path entry box
    CSV_FILE = vcsv_path.get()

    if not os.path.exists(CSV_FILE):
        os.makedirs(CSV_FILE)

    CSV_FILE += csv_file_title
    print('%s' % CSV_FILE)

    with open(CSV_FILE,'w', newline ='\n') as f:
        write = csv.writer(f, doublequote=True, delimiter=';')
        for row in arr:
            write.writerows(row)

def fx_writeCSV_str(txt_str):
    csv_file_title = 'csvtxt_1_baselisting.csv'
    # csv path entry box
    CSV_FILE = vcsv_path.get()

    if not os.path.exists(CSV_FILE):
        os.makedirs(CSV_FILE)

    CSV_FILE += csv_file_title
    print('%s' % CSV_FILE)

    with open(CSV_FILE,'w') as f:
        f.write(txt_str)

    # fx_LoadCSV(CSV_FILE)

    with open(CSV_FILE, 'r') as f:
        reader = csv.DictReader(f, delimiter=';')
        for row in reader:
            col1 = row['Path']
            col2 = row['Folder-file']
            col3 = row['Size in Byte']
            col4 = row['Size in Kb']
            col5 = row['Size in Mb']
            col6 = row['Size in Gb']
            col7 = row['type']

            tree.insert('', 'end', values=(col1, col2, col3, col4, col5, col6,col7))

    return

###############################################################################
###############################################################################

def fx_chkPath(xzPath):
    isxFile = os.path.isfile(xzPath)
    isxDir = os.path.isdir(xzPath)
    print("DOSSIER OUI????",isxDir)
    if isxDir:
        return
    elif not isxDir:
        msg.showwarning("Folder path", "WD Path entered not found")
    return


###############################################################################
###############################################################################
###############################################################################


def fx_browseFolders(argz, tycsv):
    tree.delete(*tree.get_children())
    # /// /// ///
    csv_txt = ""
    csv_contents = ""
    counterPath = 0
    size = 0
    f_size = 0
    f_vscale = 0
    # /// /// ///

    # path WD
    Lpath = vtxt_path.get()
    print('%s' % Lpath)

    # include files
    vvchkboxF = vchkboxF.get()
    # print("include files:::", vchkboxF.get())

    # include modification date
    print(vchkboxD.get())

    # include creation date
    print(vchkboxC.get())

    # scale
    f_vscale = int(var_scale.get())
    print(f_vscale)

    # path WD 2
    if Lpath.endswith(os.path.sep):
       Lpath = Lpath[:-1]

    # isFile = os.path.isfile(Lpath)
    # print("fichier?",isFile)
    fx_chkPath(Lpath)

    counterPath = Lpath.count(os.path.sep)

    csv_contents = "Path;Folder-file;Size in Byte;Size in Kb;Size in Mb;Size in Gb;type\n"

    csv_txt = csv_contents

    # csv_contents
    #     1-FOLDER PATH
    #     2-FILENAME
    #     3-FOLDER PATH FULL
    #     4-Size in Byte
    #     5-Size in Kb
    #     6-Size in Mb
    #     7-Size in Gb
    #     8-type\n

    ### BASIC LISTING #########
    if argz == 1:
        print("basic listing")
        file_paths = []
        file_paths.append([csv_contents])
        for root, dirs, files in os.walk(Lpath, topdown=True):
            for file in files:
                if tycsv == "csv":
                    vfolder_path = root + os.sep
                    vfile_name = "'" + file + "'"
                    vfolder_path_full = root + os.sep + file
                    csv_contents = "%s;%s;%s;%s;%s;%s;%s" % (vfolder_path, vfile_name , 'na', 'na', 'na','na', "folder")
                    file_paths.append([csv_contents])
                elif tycsv == "txt":
                    vfolder_path = root + os.sep
                    vfile_name = file
                    vfolder_path_full = root + os.sep + file
                    f_size = os.path.getsize(vfolder_path_full)
                    csv_txt += "%s;%s;%.0f;%.2f;%.2f;%.2f;%s" % (vfolder_path, vfile_name, f_size, f_size/1024, f_size/1048576,f_size/1073741824, "file\n")

        # APPEL FONCTION ECRIT ARRAY TO CSV
        if tycsv == "csv":
            fx_writeCSV(file_paths)
        elif tycsv == "txt":
        # APPEL FONCTION ECRIT STR TO CSV
            fx_writeCSV_str(csv_txt)

        print("job basic listing ok")

    ### ADVANCED LISTING ########
    elif argz == 2:
        print("advanced listing")

        if vvchkboxF == 0:
        #                      *** FOLDERS ONLY ***
            for root, dirs, files in os.walk(Lpath, topdown=False):
            ### calcul taille dossier
                f_size = 0
                for x, y, z in os.walk(root):
                    for i in z:
                        ftmp_che = x + os.sep + i
                        f_size += os.path.getsize(ftmp_che)
                ### ecriture taille dossier
                counter = root.count(os.path.sep) - counterPath
                vfile_name = root
                vfile_name = vfile_name + os.path.sep
                vfile_name = os.path.split(os.path.dirname(vfile_name))[1]
                vfile_name += os.path.sep
                if counter <= f_vscale:
                    csv_txt += "%s;%s;%.0f;%.2f;%.2f;%.2f;%s" % (root, vfile_name, f_size, f_size/1024, f_size/1048576,f_size/1073741824, "folder\n")

            fx_writeCSV_str(csv_txt)
            print("job adv listing folders ok")

        elif vvchkboxF == 1:
        #                    *** FOLDERS AND FILES ONLY ***
            for root, dirs, files in os.walk(Lpath, topdown=False):
            ### calcul taille dossier
                size = 0
                for x, y, z in os.walk(root):
                    for i in z:
                        ftmp_che = x + os.sep + i
                        f_size += os.path.getsize(ftmp_che)
                ### ecriture taille dossier
                counter = root.count(os.path.sep) - counterPath
                vfile_name = root
                vfile_name = vfile_name + os.path.sep
                vfile_name = os.path.split(os.path.dirname(vfile_name))[1]
                vfile_name += os.path.sep
                if counter <= f_vscale:
                    csv_contents += "%s;%s;%.0f;%.2f;%.2f;%.2f;%s\n" % (root, vfile_name, f_size, f_size/1024, f_size/1048576,f_size/1073741824, "folder")

            ### calcul +ecriture taille fichier
            for f in os.listdir(Lpath):
                path = os.path.join(Lpath, f)
                if os.path.isfile(path):
                    f_size = 0
                    f_size = os.path.getsize(path)
                    csv_contents += "%s;%s;%.0f;%.2f;%.2f;%.2f;%s\n" % (path, f, f_size, f_size/1024, f_size/1048576,f_size/1073741824, "file")

            fx_writeCSV_str(csv_contents)
            print("job adv listing files ok")
    return



###############################################################################
###############################################################################
###############################################################################
#####################################GUI#######################################
###############################################################################
###############################################################################
###############################################################################

locale.setlocale(locale.LC_ALL, "")

## MAIN WINDOW
root = Tk()
width  = int(root.winfo_screenwidth()/1.3)
height = int(root.winfo_screenheight()/1.29)
positionRight = int(width/7)
positionDown = int(height/8)

root.geometry('%sx%s+%s+%s' % (width, height, positionRight, positionDown))
root.title("Folders and files tool")

### MAKE TABS
tabCtrl = ttk.Notebook(root)
tab1 = ttk.Frame(tabCtrl)
tab2 = ttk.Frame(tabCtrl)
tab3 = ttk.Frame(tabCtrl)
tab4 = ttk.Frame(tabCtrl)
tabCtrl.add(tab1, text ='    Folders mgmt   ')
tabCtrl.add(tab2, text ='    Renamer   ')
tabCtrl.add(tab3, text ='    Something3   ')
tabCtrl.add(tab4, text ='    More infos   ')
tabCtrl.pack(expand = 1, fill ="both")

### Display Tabs
global vtxt_path
global var_scale
global vchkboxF
global vchkboxD
global vchkboxC
global vcsv_path


#######################///...///...///...///...///#######################
#                               TAB 1                                   #
#######################///...///...///...///...///#######################

### FRAME GLOB
frm10 = tk.Frame(tab1, bg="gray5")
frm10.pack(expand = 1, fill ="both")
# frm10.pack( side = LEFT, expand = True, fill = BOTH)

#######################
### FRAME 11 TOP LABEL
frm11 = tk.Frame(frm10, bg="gray5",highlightbackground="HoneyDew3", highlightcolor="HoneyDew3", highlightthickness=1)

frm11.place(width=475, height=140, x=20, y=20)

# Top label title
tk.Label(frm11,text ="Drive or folders", font=("Tahoma", 14, "normal"), fg='gray80', bg='gray5').place(x=20, y=10)

### LABEL PATH entry box
tk.Label(frm11, text="Enter Path (WD)", fg='gray80', bg='gray5').place(x=20, y=55)

# TEST FOLDER
new_text = "/media/ananas/HDD_500B/TEST_APP3/"

### PATH ENTRY BOX
vtxt_path=tk.StringVar(root,value=new_text) # Value saved here
txt_path = tk.Entry(frm11,width=43, textvariable=vtxt_path, fg='green').place(width=320, height=30, x=140, y=50)


# vtxt_path.set(new_text)
# TEST FOLDER zzz

### LABEL PATH example
tk.Label(frm11, text=r"Ex.: path for Windows: C:\Users\user\Documents\Dossier test", font=("Helvetica", 8, "italic"), fg='gray80', bg='gray5').place(width=320, height=30, x=130, y=80)

tk.Label(frm11, text=r"     path Linux: /home/user/Documents/Test dossier/", font=("Verdana", 8, "italic"), fg='gray80', bg='gray5').place(width=300, height=30, x=123, y=100)

### frame 11
###########################

###########################
### FRAME 12 TOP BUTTON SCAN ALL
frm12 = tk.Frame(frm10, bg="gray5",highlightbackground="HoneyDew3", highlightcolor="HoneyDew3", highlightthickness=1)
frm12.place(width=150, height=40, x=494, y=20)

### button
btn_scanALL = tk.Button(frm12, text="Basic listing",  bg='lightblue4', font=("Verdana", 10,"normal"))

btn_scanALL.pack(expand = 1, fill ="both",padx=0, pady=0)

### BUTTON BROWSE entry fx BASIC LISTING
btn_scanALL['command'] = fx_BasicListing

### frame 12
###########################

###########################
### FRAME 13 TOP BTN SCAN ADV + SLIDER
frm13 = tk.Frame(frm10, bg="gray5",highlightbackground="HoneyDew3", highlightcolor="HoneyDew3", highlightthickness=1, bd= 0)
frm13.place(width=540, height=100, x=494, y=60)

btn_scanADV = tk.Button(frm13, text="Advanced listing", bg='ivory4', font=("Verdana", 10,"normal"))
btn_scanADV.place(width=150, height=40, x=0, y=0)

### BUTTON BROWSE entry fx ADVANCED LISTING
btn_scanADV['command'] = fx_AdvancedListing

### slider
var_scale = tk.DoubleVar()
tk.Label(frm13, text="Subfolders level", font=("Verdana", 8, "italic"), fg='gray80', bg='gray5').place(width=150, height=10, x=0, y=46)

wslide = tk.Scale(frm13,bg='ivory4', fg='grey5', from_=0, to=10, variable = var_scale, orient=tk.HORIZONTAL)
wslide.place(width=150, height=40, x=0, y=58)
wslide.set(3)
### frame 13
###########################

###########################
### FRAME 14 TOP BTN SCAN ADV + CHECKBUTTONS
frm14 = tk.Frame(frm10, bg="gray5",highlightbackground="HoneyDew3", highlightcolor="HoneyDew3", highlightthickness=1, bd= 0)
frm14.place(width=190, height=100, x=645, y=60)

vchkboxF=tk.IntVar()
chkbox=tk.Checkbutton(frm14, highlightthickness=0,bd=0,text="Include files", font=("Verdana", 9, "normal"), fg='gray80', bg='gray5', variable=vchkboxF, offvalue=0, onvalue=1)
chkbox.place(x=0, y=5)

vchkboxD=tk.IntVar()
chkbox=tk.Checkbutton(frm14, highlightthickness=0,bd=0,text="Include modification date", font=("Verdana", 9, "normal"), fg='gray80', bg='gray5', variable=vchkboxD, offvalue=0, onvalue=1)
chkbox.place(x=0, y=25)

vchkboxC=tk.IntVar()
chkbox=tk.Checkbutton(frm14, highlightthickness=0,bd=0,text="Include creation date", font=("Verdana", 9, "normal"), fg='gray80', bg='gray5', variable=vchkboxC, offvalue=0, onvalue=1)
chkbox.place(x=0, y=45)
### frame 14
###########################

###########################
### FRAME 15 TREEVIEW
frm15 = tk.Frame(frm10, bg="gray5",highlightbackground="HoneyDew3", highlightcolor="HoneyDew3", highlightthickness=1, bd= 0)
frm15.place(width=1000, height=350, x=20, y=175)

container = ttk.Frame(frm15)
# container.place(width=1015, height=350, x=20, y=175)
container.pack()

style = ttk.Style()
style.theme_use("clam")
style.configure("Treeview", background="lemonchiffon3",font=('Tahoma', 9),
                fieldbackground="lemonchiffon3", foreground="grey10")

style.configure("Treeview.Heading", font=('Tahoma', 10),foreground='orange4')

tree = ttk.Treeview(frm15, columns=('1', '2', '3', '4', '5', '6', '7'))
vsb = ttk.Scrollbar(orient="vertical", command=tree.yview)
hsb = ttk.Scrollbar(orient="horizontal", command=tree.xview)
vsb.place(x=1021, y=231,width=15, height=307,)
hsb.place(x=22, y=540,width=1000, height=15,)
tree.configure(yscrollcommand=vsb.set, xscrollcommand=hsb.set)
container.grid_columnconfigure(0, weight=1)
container.grid_rowconfigure(0, weight=1)

tree.column('#1', width=180, stretch=YES)
tree.column('#2', width=240, stretch=YES)
tree.column('#3', width=10, stretch=YES)
tree.column('#4', width=5, stretch=YES)
tree.column('#5', width=5, stretch=YES)
tree.column('#6', width=5, stretch=YES)
tree.column('#7', width=25, stretch=YES)

tree.heading('#1', text='Path')
tree.heading('#2', text='Folder-file')
tree.heading('#3', text='Byte')
tree.heading('#4', text='Kb')
tree.heading('#5', text='Mb')
tree.heading('#6', text='Gb')
tree.heading('#7', text='Object type')

tree['show'] = 'headings'

tree.pack(fill=BOTH,expand=1)

### frame 15
###########################

###########################
### FRAME 16 CSV DIAL
frm16 = tk.Frame(frm10, bg="gray5",highlightbackground="HoneyDew3", highlightcolor="HoneyDew3", highlightthickness=1, bd= 0)
frm16.place(width=480, height=30, x=20, y=530)

# csv lbl
tk.Label(frm16,text ="Default folder for csv file (change...)", font=("Verdana", 8, "normal"), fg='gray80', bg='gray5').place(x=10, y=5)

# csv folder entry box
vcsv_path=tk.StringVar() # Value saved here
txt_csv = tk.Entry(frm16,width=43, textvariable=vcsv_path, fg='green').place(width=265, x=210, y=3)
full_path = os.path.realpath(__file__)
new_text = os.path.dirname(full_path) + os.sep + 'csv_folder' + os.sep
vcsv_path.set(new_text)

###############################################################################
###############################################################################
###############################################################################

###############################################################################
###############################################################################
###############################################################################

def fx_FileRen():

    Lpath = vtxt_path3.get()
    print('%s' % Lpath)

    # path WD 2
    if Lpath.endswith(os.path.sep):
       Lpath = Lpath[:-1]

    print('%s' % Lpath)

    msg.showwarning("File names", "File names changed")

    # with open(csv_file_title) as csvfile:
    #     csvreader = csv.reader(csvfile, delimiter=';', quotechar='"')
    #     for row in csvreader:
    #         name = row[0]
    #         new = row[1]
    #         if os.path.exists(name):
    #             os.rename(name, new)
    #         else:
    #             print(name + " does not exist")


###############################################################################

def fx_FoldRen():

    csv_file_title = 'csv_1_baselisting.csv'
    print('%s' % csv_file_title)

    # with open(CSV_FILE,'w', newline ='\n') as f:
    #     write = csv.writer(f, doublequote=True, delimiter=';')
    #     for row in arr:
    #         write.writerows(row)


    msg.showwarning("Folder names", "Folders names changed")

###############################################################################
###############################################################################
###############################################################################

###############################################################################
###############################################################################
###############################################################################


#######################///...///...///...///...///#######################
#                               TAB 2                                   #
#######################///...///...///...///...///#######################

### FRAME GLOB
frm20 = tk.Frame(tab2, bg="gray5")
frm20.pack(expand = 1, fill ="both")
# frm10.pack( side = LEFT, expand = True, fill = BOTH)

#######################
### FRAME 21a FOLDER PATH
frm21a = tk.Frame(frm20, bg="gray5",highlightbackground="HoneyDew3", highlightcolor="HoneyDew3", highlightthickness=1)

frm21a.place(width=950, height=100, x=20, y=45)

# Top label title
tk.Label(frm21a,text ="Folder path to list folders files to csv", font=("Tahoma", 14, "normal"), fg='gray80', bg='gray5').place(x=20, y=10)

vtxt_path1a=tk.StringVar(root, value=new_text) # Value saved here
txt_path1a = tk.Entry(frm21a,width=43, textvariable=vtxt_path1a, fg='blue').place(width=620, height=30, x=140, y=50)

#######################
### FRAME 21 LABEL FILES RENAME
frm21 = tk.Frame(frm20, bg="gray5",highlightbackground="HoneyDew3", highlightcolor="HoneyDew3", highlightthickness=1)

frm21.place(width=775, height=100, x=20, y=185)

# Top label title
tk.Label(frm21,text ="Rename files only from csv file below", font=("Tahoma", 14, "normal"), fg='gray80', bg='gray5').place(x=20, y=10)

### LABEL FILES RENAME entry box
tk.Label(frm21, text="CSV file path", fg='gray80', bg='gray5').place(x=20, y=55)

# TEST FOLDER
full_path = os.path.realpath(__file__)
new_text = os.path.dirname(full_path) + os.sep + 'csv_folder' + os.sep + "csvtxt_1_filenamelisting.csv"
# vtxt_path2.set(new_text)

### PATH ENTRY BOX
vtxt_path2=tk.StringVar(root, value=new_text) # Value saved here
txt_path2 = tk.Entry(frm21,width=43, textvariable=vtxt_path2, fg='blue').place(width=620, height=30, x=140, y=50)

# TEST FOLDER zzz

###########################
### FRAME 22 TOP BUTTON FILE RENAME
frm22 = tk.Frame(frm20, bg="gray5",highlightbackground="HoneyDew3", highlightcolor="HoneyDew3", highlightthickness=1)
frm22.place(width=150, height=40, x=820, y=220)

### button
btn_FileRen = tk.Button(frm22, text="Files rename",  bg='lightblue4', font=("Verdana", 10,"normal"))

btn_FileRen.pack(expand = 1, fill ="both",padx=0, pady=0)

### BUTTON BROWSE entry fx BASIC LISTING
btn_FileRen['command'] = fx_FileRen


#######################
### FRAME 23 LABEL FOLDERS RENAME
frm23 = tk.Frame(frm20, bg="gray5",highlightbackground="HoneyDew3", highlightcolor="HoneyDew3", highlightthickness=1)

frm23.place(width=775, height=100, x=20, y=320)

# Top label title
tk.Label(frm23,text ="Rename folders only from csv file below", font=("Tahoma", 14, "normal"), fg='gray80', bg='gray5').place(x=20, y=10)

### LABEL PATH entry box
tk.Label(frm23, text="CSV file path", fg='gray80', bg='gray5').place(x=20, y=55)

# TEST FOLDER
full_path = os.path.realpath(__file__)
new_text = os.path.dirname(full_path) + os.sep + 'csv_folder' + os.sep + "csvtxt_1_foldernamelisting.csv"
# vtxt_path2.set(new_text)

### PATH ENTRY BOX
vtxt_path3=tk.StringVar(root, value=new_text) # Value saved here
txt_path3 = tk.Entry(frm23,width=43, textvariable=vtxt_path3, fg='brown').place(width=620, height=30, x=140, y=50)

# TEST FOLDER zzz

###########################
### FRAME 24 BUTTON FOLDERS RENAME
frm24 = tk.Frame(frm20, bg="gray5",highlightbackground="HoneyDew3", highlightcolor="HoneyDew3", highlightthickness=1)
frm24.place(width=150, height=40, x=820, y=345)

### button
btn_FoldRen = tk.Button(frm24, text="Folders rename",  bg='brown', font=("Verdana", 10,"normal"))

btn_FoldRen.pack(expand = 1, fill ="both",padx=0, pady=0)

### BUTTON BROWSE entry fx BASIC LISTING
btn_FoldRen['command'] = fx_FoldRen


#######################///...///...///...///...///#######################
#                               TAB 3                                   #
#######################///...///...///...///...///#######################




#######################///...///...///...///...///#######################
#                               zZZZz                                   #
#######################///...///...///...///...///#######################

if __name__ == '__main__':
    root.mainloop()

From barpasc at yahoo.com  Mon Jan 11 06:53:23 2021
From: barpasc at yahoo.com (pascal z)
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 2021 03:53:23 -0800 (PST)
Subject: learning python building 2nd app, need advices
In-Reply-To: <mailman.684.1610155654.7193.python-list@python.org>
References: <3170f050-4d37-4a64-96cb-f3718a3ef2aan@googlegroups.com>
 <a7b9a82c-6351-4df5-59eb-f12c71c62985@Damon-Family.org>
 <6da92d5c-29c9-45b6-9078-5f1fef7a1b34n@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.684.1610155654.7193.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <9d70c7a0-a72c-4476-94cc-d69ac154acd1n@googlegroups.com>

tab to space on linux is not something easy to do, I had to launch windows and use notepad++. Anyway, indentation should all be converted to spaces below 

#!/usr/bin/env python3
# -*- coding: utf-8 -*-

import locale
import os
import csv
from tkinter import messagebox as msg

try:
    from tkinter import *
    import ttk
except:
    import tkinter as tk #GUI package
    from tkinter import ttk


def fx_BasicListing():
    #argx mode = 1 pour basic listing
    #argx mode = 2 pour adv listing
    # "txt" pour type enreg csv txt/csv
    # tree.delete(*tree.get_children())
    fx_browseFoldersZ(1)
    return

def fx_AdvancedListing():
    #argx mode = 1 pour basic listing
    #argx mode = 2 pour adv listing
    # fx_browseFoldersZ(2,"txt")
    # tree.destroy()
    #tree.delete(*tree.get_children())
    fx_browseFoldersZ(2)
    return

def fx_browseFoldersZ(argy):
    #argx mode = 1 pour basic listing
    #argx mode = 2 pour adv listing
    # "txt" pour type enreg csv txt/csv
    tree.delete(*tree.get_children())
    fx_browseFolders(argy,"txt")

###############################################################################
###############################################################################
###############################################################################

def fx_writeCSV(*arr):

    csv_file_title = 'csv_1_baselisting.csv'
    # csv path entry box
    CSV_FILE = vcsv_path.get()

    if not os.path.exists(CSV_FILE):
        os.makedirs(CSV_FILE)

    CSV_FILE += csv_file_title
    print('%s' % CSV_FILE)

    with open(CSV_FILE,'w', newline ='\n') as f:
        write = csv.writer(f, doublequote=True, delimiter=';')
        for row in arr:
            write.writerows(row)

def fx_writeCSV_str(txt_str):
    csv_file_title = 'csvtxt_1_baselisting.csv'
    # csv path entry box
    CSV_FILE = vcsv_path.get()

    if not os.path.exists(CSV_FILE):
        os.makedirs(CSV_FILE)

    CSV_FILE += csv_file_title
    print('%s' % CSV_FILE)

    with open(CSV_FILE,'w') as f:
        f.write(txt_str)

    # fx_LoadCSV(CSV_FILE)

    with open(CSV_FILE, 'r') as f:
        reader = csv.DictReader(f, delimiter=';')
        for row in reader:
            col1 = row['Path']
            col2 = row['Folder-file']
            col3 = row['Size in Byte']
            col4 = row['Size in Kb']
            col5 = row['Size in Mb']
            col6 = row['Size in Gb']
            col7 = row['type']

            tree.insert('', 'end', values=(col1, col2, col3, col4, col5, col6,col7))

    return

###############################################################################
###############################################################################

def fx_chkPath(xzPath):
    isxFile = os.path.isfile(xzPath)
    isxDir = os.path.isdir(xzPath)
    print("DOSSIER OUI????",isxDir)
    if isxDir:
        return
    elif not isxDir:
        msg.showwarning("Folder path", "WD Path entered not found")
    return


###############################################################################
###############################################################################
###############################################################################


def fx_browseFolders(argz, tycsv):
    tree.delete(*tree.get_children())
    # /// /// ///
    csv_txt = ""
    csv_contents = ""
    counterPath = 0
    size = 0
    f_size = 0
    f_vscale = 0
    # /// /// ///

    # path WD
    Lpath = vtxt_path.get()
    print('%s' % Lpath)

    # include files
    vvchkboxF = vchkboxF.get()
    # print("include files:::", vchkboxF.get())

    # include modification date
    print(vchkboxD.get())

    # include creation date
    print(vchkboxC.get())

    # scale
    f_vscale = int(var_scale.get())
    print(f_vscale)

    # path WD 2
    if Lpath.endswith(os.path.sep):
       Lpath = Lpath[:-1]

    # isFile = os.path.isfile(Lpath)
    # print("fichier?",isFile)
    fx_chkPath(Lpath)

    counterPath = Lpath.count(os.path.sep)

    csv_contents = "Path;Folder-file;Size in Byte;Size in Kb;Size in Mb;Size in Gb;type\n"

    csv_txt = csv_contents

    # csv_contents
    #     1-FOLDER PATH
    #     2-FILENAME
    #     3-FOLDER PATH FULL
    #     4-Size in Byte
    #     5-Size in Kb
    #     6-Size in Mb
    #     7-Size in Gb
    #     8-type\n

    ### BASIC LISTING #########
    if argz == 1:
        print("basic listing")
        file_paths = []
        file_paths.append([csv_contents])
        for root, dirs, files in os.walk(Lpath, topdown=True):
            for file in files:
                if tycsv == "csv":
                    vfolder_path = root + os.sep
                    vfile_name = "'" + file + "'"
                    vfolder_path_full = root + os.sep + file
                    csv_contents = "%s;%s;%s;%s;%s;%s;%s" % (vfolder_path, vfile_name , 'na', 'na', 'na','na', "folder")
                    file_paths.append([csv_contents])
                elif tycsv == "txt":
                    vfolder_path = root + os.sep
                    vfile_name = file
                    vfolder_path_full = root + os.sep + file
                    f_size = os.path.getsize(vfolder_path_full)
                    csv_txt += "%s;%s;%.0f;%.2f;%.2f;%.2f;%s" % (vfolder_path, vfile_name, f_size, f_size/1024, f_size/1048576,f_size/1073741824, "file\n")

        # APPEL FONCTION ECRIT ARRAY TO CSV
        if tycsv == "csv":
            fx_writeCSV(file_paths)
        elif tycsv == "txt":
        # APPEL FONCTION ECRIT STR TO CSV
            fx_writeCSV_str(csv_txt)

        print("job basic listing ok")

    ### ADVANCED LISTING ########
    elif argz == 2:
        print("advanced listing")

        if vvchkboxF == 0:
        #                      *** FOLDERS ONLY ***
            for root, dirs, files in os.walk(Lpath, topdown=False):
            ### calcul taille dossier
                f_size = 0
                for x, y, z in os.walk(root):
                    for i in z:
                        ftmp_che = x + os.sep + i
                        f_size += os.path.getsize(ftmp_che)
                ### ecriture taille dossier
                counter = root.count(os.path.sep) - counterPath
                vfile_name = root
                vfile_name = vfile_name + os.path.sep
                vfile_name = os.path.split(os.path.dirname(vfile_name))[1]
                vfile_name += os.path.sep
                if counter <= f_vscale:
                    csv_txt += "%s;%s;%.0f;%.2f;%.2f;%.2f;%s" % (root, vfile_name, f_size, f_size/1024, f_size/1048576,f_size/1073741824, "folder\n")

            fx_writeCSV_str(csv_txt)
            print("job adv listing folders ok")

        elif vvchkboxF == 1:
        #                    *** FOLDERS AND FILES ONLY ***
            for root, dirs, files in os.walk(Lpath, topdown=False):
            ### calcul taille dossier
                size = 0
                for x, y, z in os.walk(root):
                    for i in z:
                        ftmp_che = x + os.sep + i
                        f_size += os.path.getsize(ftmp_che)
                ### ecriture taille dossier
                counter = root.count(os.path.sep) - counterPath
                vfile_name = root
                vfile_name = vfile_name + os.path.sep
                vfile_name = os.path.split(os.path.dirname(vfile_name))[1]
                vfile_name += os.path.sep
                if counter <= f_vscale:
                    csv_contents += "%s;%s;%.0f;%.2f;%.2f;%.2f;%s\n" % (root, vfile_name, f_size, f_size/1024, f_size/1048576,f_size/1073741824, "folder")

            ### calcul +ecriture taille fichier
            for f in os.listdir(Lpath):
                path = os.path.join(Lpath, f)
                if os.path.isfile(path):
                    f_size = 0
                    f_size = os.path.getsize(path)
                    csv_contents += "%s;%s;%.0f;%.2f;%.2f;%.2f;%s\n" % (path, f, f_size, f_size/1024, f_size/1048576,f_size/1073741824, "file")

            fx_writeCSV_str(csv_contents)
            print("job adv listing files ok")
    return



###############################################################################
###############################################################################
###############################################################################
#####################################GUI#######################################
###############################################################################
###############################################################################
###############################################################################

locale.setlocale(locale.LC_ALL, "")

## MAIN WINDOW
root = Tk()
width  = int(root.winfo_screenwidth()/1.3)
height = int(root.winfo_screenheight()/1.29)
positionRight = int(width/7)
positionDown = int(height/8)

root.geometry('%sx%s+%s+%s' % (width, height, positionRight, positionDown))
root.title("Folders and files tool")

### MAKE TABS
tabCtrl = ttk.Notebook(root)
tab1 = ttk.Frame(tabCtrl)
tab2 = ttk.Frame(tabCtrl)
tab3 = ttk.Frame(tabCtrl)
tab4 = ttk.Frame(tabCtrl)
tabCtrl.add(tab1, text ='    Folders mgmt   ')
tabCtrl.add(tab2, text ='    Renamer   ')
tabCtrl.add(tab3, text ='    Something3   ')
tabCtrl.add(tab4, text ='    More infos   ')
tabCtrl.pack(expand = 1, fill ="both")

### Display Tabs
global vtxt_path
global var_scale
global vchkboxF
global vchkboxD
global vchkboxC
global vcsv_path


#######################///...///...///...///...///#######################
#                               TAB 1                                   #
#######################///...///...///...///...///#######################

### FRAME GLOB
frm10 = tk.Frame(tab1, bg="gray5")
frm10.pack(expand = 1, fill ="both")
# frm10.pack( side = LEFT, expand = True, fill = BOTH)

#######################
### FRAME 11 TOP LABEL
frm11 = tk.Frame(frm10, bg="gray5",highlightbackground="HoneyDew3", highlightcolor="HoneyDew3", highlightthickness=1)

frm11.place(width=475, height=140, x=20, y=20)

# Top label title
tk.Label(frm11,text ="Drive or folders", font=("Tahoma", 14, "normal"), fg='gray80', bg='gray5').place(x=20, y=10)

### LABEL PATH entry box
tk.Label(frm11, text="Enter Path (WD)", fg='gray80', bg='gray5').place(x=20, y=55)

# TEST FOLDER
new_text = "/media/ananas/HDD_500B/TEST_APP3/"

### PATH ENTRY BOX
vtxt_path=tk.StringVar(root,value=new_text) # Value saved here
txt_path = tk.Entry(frm11,width=43, textvariable=vtxt_path, fg='green').place(width=320, height=30, x=140, y=50)


# vtxt_path.set(new_text)
# TEST FOLDER zzz

### LABEL PATH example
tk.Label(frm11, text=r"Ex.: path for Windows: C:\Users\user\Documents\Dossier test", font=("Helvetica", 8, "italic"), fg='gray80', bg='gray5').place(width=320, height=30, x=130, y=80)

tk.Label(frm11, text=r"     path Linux: /home/user/Documents/Test dossier/", font=("Verdana", 8, "italic"), fg='gray80', bg='gray5').place(width=300, height=30, x=123, y=100)

### frame 11
###########################

###########################
### FRAME 12 TOP BUTTON SCAN ALL
frm12 = tk.Frame(frm10, bg="gray5",highlightbackground="HoneyDew3", highlightcolor="HoneyDew3", highlightthickness=1)
frm12.place(width=150, height=40, x=494, y=20)

### button
btn_scanALL = tk.Button(frm12, text="Basic listing",  bg='lightblue4', font=("Verdana", 10,"normal"))

btn_scanALL.pack(expand = 1, fill ="both",padx=0, pady=0)

### BUTTON BROWSE entry fx BASIC LISTING
btn_scanALL['command'] = fx_BasicListing

### frame 12
###########################

###########################
### FRAME 13 TOP BTN SCAN ADV + SLIDER
frm13 = tk.Frame(frm10, bg="gray5",highlightbackground="HoneyDew3", highlightcolor="HoneyDew3", highlightthickness=1, bd= 0)
frm13.place(width=540, height=100, x=494, y=60)

btn_scanADV = tk.Button(frm13, text="Advanced listing", bg='ivory4', font=("Verdana", 10,"normal"))
btn_scanADV.place(width=150, height=40, x=0, y=0)

### BUTTON BROWSE entry fx ADVANCED LISTING
btn_scanADV['command'] = fx_AdvancedListing

### slider
var_scale = tk.DoubleVar()
tk.Label(frm13, text="Subfolders level", font=("Verdana", 8, "italic"), fg='gray80', bg='gray5').place(width=150, height=10, x=0, y=46)

wslide = tk.Scale(frm13,bg='ivory4', fg='grey5', from_=0, to=10, variable = var_scale, orient=tk.HORIZONTAL)
wslide.place(width=150, height=40, x=0, y=58)
wslide.set(3)
### frame 13
###########################

###########################
### FRAME 14 TOP BTN SCAN ADV + CHECKBUTTONS
frm14 = tk.Frame(frm10, bg="gray5",highlightbackground="HoneyDew3", highlightcolor="HoneyDew3", highlightthickness=1, bd= 0)
frm14.place(width=190, height=100, x=645, y=60)

vchkboxF=tk.IntVar()
chkbox=tk.Checkbutton(frm14, highlightthickness=0,bd=0,text="Include files", font=("Verdana", 9, "normal"), fg='gray80', bg='gray5', variable=vchkboxF, offvalue=0, onvalue=1)
chkbox.place(x=0, y=5)

vchkboxD=tk.IntVar()
chkbox=tk.Checkbutton(frm14, highlightthickness=0,bd=0,text="Include modification date", font=("Verdana", 9, "normal"), fg='gray80', bg='gray5', variable=vchkboxD, offvalue=0, onvalue=1)
chkbox.place(x=0, y=25)

vchkboxC=tk.IntVar()
chkbox=tk.Checkbutton(frm14, highlightthickness=0,bd=0,text="Include creation date", font=("Verdana", 9, "normal"), fg='gray80', bg='gray5', variable=vchkboxC, offvalue=0, onvalue=1)
chkbox.place(x=0, y=45)
### frame 14
###########################

###########################
### FRAME 15 TREEVIEW
frm15 = tk.Frame(frm10, bg="gray5",highlightbackground="HoneyDew3", highlightcolor="HoneyDew3", highlightthickness=1, bd= 0)
frm15.place(width=1000, height=350, x=20, y=175)

container = ttk.Frame(frm15)
# container.place(width=1015, height=350, x=20, y=175)
container.pack()

style = ttk.Style()
style.theme_use("clam")
style.configure("Treeview", background="lemonchiffon3",font=('Tahoma', 9),
                fieldbackground="lemonchiffon3", foreground="grey10")

style.configure("Treeview.Heading", font=('Tahoma', 10),foreground='orange4')

tree = ttk.Treeview(frm15, columns=('1', '2', '3', '4', '5', '6', '7'))
vsb = ttk.Scrollbar(orient="vertical", command=tree.yview)
hsb = ttk.Scrollbar(orient="horizontal", command=tree.xview)
vsb.place(x=1021, y=231,width=15, height=307,)
hsb.place(x=22, y=540,width=1000, height=15,)
tree.configure(yscrollcommand=vsb.set, xscrollcommand=hsb.set)
container.grid_columnconfigure(0, weight=1)
container.grid_rowconfigure(0, weight=1)

tree.column('#1', width=180, stretch=YES)
tree.column('#2', width=240, stretch=YES)
tree.column('#3', width=10, stretch=YES)
tree.column('#4', width=5, stretch=YES)
tree.column('#5', width=5, stretch=YES)
tree.column('#6', width=5, stretch=YES)
tree.column('#7', width=25, stretch=YES)

tree.heading('#1', text='Path')
tree.heading('#2', text='Folder-file')
tree.heading('#3', text='Byte')
tree.heading('#4', text='Kb')
tree.heading('#5', text='Mb')
tree.heading('#6', text='Gb')
tree.heading('#7', text='Object type')

tree['show'] = 'headings'

tree.pack(fill=BOTH,expand=1)

### frame 15
###########################

###########################
### FRAME 16 CSV DIAL
frm16 = tk.Frame(frm10, bg="gray5",highlightbackground="HoneyDew3", highlightcolor="HoneyDew3", highlightthickness=1, bd= 0)
frm16.place(width=480, height=30, x=20, y=530)

# csv lbl
tk.Label(frm16,text ="Default folder for csv file (change...)", font=("Verdana", 8, "normal"), fg='gray80', bg='gray5').place(x=10, y=5)

# csv folder entry box
vcsv_path=tk.StringVar() # Value saved here
txt_csv = tk.Entry(frm16,width=43, textvariable=vcsv_path, fg='green').place(width=265, x=210, y=3)
full_path = os.path.realpath(__file__)
new_text = os.path.dirname(full_path) + os.sep + 'csv_folder' + os.sep
vcsv_path.set(new_text)

###############################################################################
###############################################################################
###############################################################################

###############################################################################
###############################################################################
###############################################################################

def fx_FileRen():

    Lpath = vtxt_path3.get()
    print('%s' % Lpath)

    # path WD 2
    if Lpath.endswith(os.path.sep):
       Lpath = Lpath[:-1]

    print('%s' % Lpath)

    msg.showwarning("File names", "File names changed")

    # with open(csv_file_title) as csvfile:
    #     csvreader = csv.reader(csvfile, delimiter=';', quotechar='"')
    #     for row in csvreader:
    #         name = row[0]
    #         new = row[1]
    #         if os.path.exists(name):
    #             os.rename(name, new)
    #         else:
    #             print(name + " does not exist")


###############################################################################

def fx_FoldRen():

    csv_file_title = 'csv_1_baselisting.csv'
    print('%s' % csv_file_title)

    # with open(CSV_FILE,'w', newline ='\n') as f:
    #     write = csv.writer(f, doublequote=True, delimiter=';')
    #     for row in arr:
    #         write.writerows(row)


    msg.showwarning("Folder names", "Folders names changed")

###############################################################################
###############################################################################
###############################################################################

###############################################################################
###############################################################################
###############################################################################


#######################///...///...///...///...///#######################
#                               TAB 2                                   #
#######################///...///...///...///...///#######################

### FRAME GLOB
frm20 = tk.Frame(tab2, bg="gray5")
frm20.pack(expand = 1, fill ="both")
# frm10.pack( side = LEFT, expand = True, fill = BOTH)

#######################
### FRAME 21a FOLDER PATH
frm21a = tk.Frame(frm20, bg="gray5",highlightbackground="HoneyDew3", highlightcolor="HoneyDew3", highlightthickness=1)

frm21a.place(width=950, height=100, x=20, y=45)

# Top label title
tk.Label(frm21a,text ="Folder path to list folders files to csv", font=("Tahoma", 14, "normal"), fg='gray80', bg='gray5').place(x=20, y=10)

vtxt_path1a=tk.StringVar(root, value=new_text) # Value saved here
txt_path1a = tk.Entry(frm21a,width=43, textvariable=vtxt_path1a, fg='blue').place(width=620, height=30, x=140, y=50)

#######################
### FRAME 21 LABEL FILES RENAME
frm21 = tk.Frame(frm20, bg="gray5",highlightbackground="HoneyDew3", highlightcolor="HoneyDew3", highlightthickness=1)

frm21.place(width=775, height=100, x=20, y=185)

# Top label title
tk.Label(frm21,text ="Rename files only from csv file below", font=("Tahoma", 14, "normal"), fg='gray80', bg='gray5').place(x=20, y=10)

### LABEL FILES RENAME entry box
tk.Label(frm21, text="CSV file path", fg='gray80', bg='gray5').place(x=20, y=55)

# TEST FOLDER
full_path = os.path.realpath(__file__)
new_text = os.path.dirname(full_path) + os.sep + 'csv_folder' + os.sep + "csvtxt_1_filenamelisting.csv"
# vtxt_path2.set(new_text)

### PATH ENTRY BOX
vtxt_path2=tk.StringVar(root, value=new_text) # Value saved here
txt_path2 = tk.Entry(frm21,width=43, textvariable=vtxt_path2, fg='blue').place(width=620, height=30, x=140, y=50)

# TEST FOLDER zzz

###########################
### FRAME 22 TOP BUTTON FILE RENAME
frm22 = tk.Frame(frm20, bg="gray5",highlightbackground="HoneyDew3", highlightcolor="HoneyDew3", highlightthickness=1)
frm22.place(width=150, height=40, x=820, y=220)

### button
btn_FileRen = tk.Button(frm22, text="Files rename",  bg='lightblue4', font=("Verdana", 10,"normal"))

btn_FileRen.pack(expand = 1, fill ="both",padx=0, pady=0)

### BUTTON BROWSE entry fx BASIC LISTING
btn_FileRen['command'] = fx_FileRen


#######################
### FRAME 23 LABEL FOLDERS RENAME
frm23 = tk.Frame(frm20, bg="gray5",highlightbackground="HoneyDew3", highlightcolor="HoneyDew3", highlightthickness=1)

frm23.place(width=775, height=100, x=20, y=320)

# Top label title
tk.Label(frm23,text ="Rename folders only from csv file below", font=("Tahoma", 14, "normal"), fg='gray80', bg='gray5').place(x=20, y=10)

### LABEL PATH entry box
tk.Label(frm23, text="CSV file path", fg='gray80', bg='gray5').place(x=20, y=55)

# TEST FOLDER
full_path = os.path.realpath(__file__)
new_text = os.path.dirname(full_path) + os.sep + 'csv_folder' + os.sep + "csvtxt_1_foldernamelisting.csv"
# vtxt_path2.set(new_text)

### PATH ENTRY BOX
vtxt_path3=tk.StringVar(root, value=new_text) # Value saved here
txt_path3 = tk.Entry(frm23,width=43, textvariable=vtxt_path3, fg='brown').place(width=620, height=30, x=140, y=50)

# TEST FOLDER zzz

###########################
### FRAME 24 BUTTON FOLDERS RENAME
frm24 = tk.Frame(frm20, bg="gray5",highlightbackground="HoneyDew3", highlightcolor="HoneyDew3", highlightthickness=1)
frm24.place(width=150, height=40, x=820, y=345)

### button
btn_FoldRen = tk.Button(frm24, text="Folders rename",  bg='brown', font=("Verdana", 10,"normal"))

btn_FoldRen.pack(expand = 1, fill ="both",padx=0, pady=0)

### BUTTON BROWSE entry fx BASIC LISTING
btn_FoldRen['command'] = fx_FoldRen


#######################///...///...///...///...///#######################
#                               TAB 3                                   #
#######################///...///...///...///...///#######################




#######################///...///...///...///...///#######################
#                               zZZZz                                   #
#######################///...///...///...///...///#######################

if __name__ == '__main__':
    root.mainloop()

From loris.bennett at fu-berlin.de  Mon Jan 11 07:00:10 2021
From: loris.bennett at fu-berlin.de (Loris Bennett)
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 2021 13:00:10 +0100
Subject: learning python building 2nd app, need advices
References: <3170f050-4d37-4a64-96cb-f3718a3ef2aan@googlegroups.com>
 <a7b9a82c-6351-4df5-59eb-f12c71c62985@Damon-Family.org>
 <6da92d5c-29c9-45b6-9078-5f1fef7a1b34n@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.684.1610155654.7193.python-list@python.org>
 <37329709-b300-4c1e-af88-8ed0d6de588bn@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <878s8zn0ol.fsf@hornfels.zedat.fu-berlin.de>

pascal z <barpasc at yahoo.com> writes:

> tab to space on linux is not something easy to do

I would argue that you are mistaken, although that depends somewhat on
your definition of 'easy'.

> , I had to launch windows and use notepad++.

There is the Linux command 'expand' , which I have never used, but which
sounds like it will do what you want:

  $ expand --help
  Usage: expand [OPTION]... [FILE]...
  Convert tabs in each FILE to spaces, writing to standard output.

As an Emacs user, personally I would use the command 

  M-x untabify

within Emacs.  I assume that Vim has something similar.

Cheers,

Loris

-- 
This signature is currently under construction.

From barpasc at yahoo.com  Mon Jan 11 07:05:00 2021
From: barpasc at yahoo.com (pascal z)
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 2021 04:05:00 -0800 (PST)
Subject: learning python building 2nd app, need advices
In-Reply-To: <mailman.684.1610155654.7193.python-list@python.org>
References: <3170f050-4d37-4a64-96cb-f3718a3ef2aan@googlegroups.com>
 <a7b9a82c-6351-4df5-59eb-f12c71c62985@Damon-Family.org>
 <6da92d5c-29c9-45b6-9078-5f1fef7a1b34n@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.684.1610155654.7193.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <b7308075-fdda-41d6-bf13-d92cf0f691a0n@googlegroups.com>

#!/usr/bin/env python3
# -*- coding: utf-8 -*-

import locale
import os
import csv
from tkinter import messagebox as msg

try:
    from tkinter import *
    import ttk
except:
    import tkinter as tk #GUI package
    from tkinter import ttk


def fx_BasicListing():
    #argx mode = 1 pour basic listing
    #argx mode = 2 pour adv listing
    # "txt" pour type enreg csv txt/csv
    # tree.delete(*tree.get_children())
    fx_browseFoldersZ(1)
    return

def fx_AdvancedListing():
    #argx mode = 1 pour basic listing
    #argx mode = 2 pour adv listing
    # fx_browseFoldersZ(2,"txt")
    # tree.destroy()
    #tree.delete(*tree.get_children())
    fx_browseFoldersZ(2)
    return

def fx_browseFoldersZ(argy):
    #argx mode = 1 pour basic listing
    #argx mode = 2 pour adv listing
    # "txt" pour type enreg csv txt/csv
    tree.delete(*tree.get_children())
    fx_browseFolders(argy,"txt")

###############################################################################
###############################################################################
###############################################################################

def fx_writeCSV(*arr):

    csv_file_title = 'csv_1_baselisting.csv'
    # csv path entry box
    CSV_FILE = vcsv_path.get()

    if not os.path.exists(CSV_FILE):
        os.makedirs(CSV_FILE)

    CSV_FILE += csv_file_title
    print('%s' % CSV_FILE)

    with open(CSV_FILE,'w', newline ='\n') as f:
        write = csv.writer(f, doublequote=True, delimiter=';')
        for row in arr:
            write.writerows(row)

def fx_writeCSV_str(txt_str):
    csv_file_title = 'csvtxt_1_baselisting.csv'
    # csv path entry box
    CSV_FILE = vcsv_path.get()

    if not os.path.exists(CSV_FILE):
        os.makedirs(CSV_FILE)

    CSV_FILE += csv_file_title
    print('%s' % CSV_FILE)

    with open(CSV_FILE,'w') as f:
        f.write(txt_str)

    # fx_LoadCSV(CSV_FILE)

    with open(CSV_FILE, 'r') as f:
        reader = csv.DictReader(f, delimiter=';')
        for row in reader:
            col1 = row['Path']
            col2 = row['Folder-file']
            col3 = row['Size in Byte']
            col4 = row['Size in Kb']
            col5 = row['Size in Mb']
            col6 = row['Size in Gb']
            col7 = row['type']

            tree.insert('', 'end', values=(col1, col2, col3, col4, col5, col6,col7))

    return

###############################################################################
###############################################################################

def fx_chkPath(xzPath):
    isxFile = os.path.isfile(xzPath)
    isxDir = os.path.isdir(xzPath)
    print("DOSSIER OUI????",isxDir)
    if isxDir:
        return
    elif not isxDir:
        msg.showwarning("Folder path", "WD Path entered not found")
    return


###############################################################################
###############################################################################
###############################################################################


def fx_browseFolders(argz, tycsv):
    tree.delete(*tree.get_children())
    # /// /// ///
    csv_txt = ""
    csv_contents = ""
    counterPath = 0
    size = 0
    f_size = 0
    f_vscale = 0
    # /// /// ///

    # path WD
    Lpath = vtxt_path.get()
    print('%s' % Lpath)

    # include files
    vvchkboxF = vchkboxF.get()
    # print("include files:::", vchkboxF.get())

    # include modification date
    print(vchkboxD.get())

    # include creation date
    print(vchkboxC.get())

    # scale
    f_vscale = int(var_scale.get())
    print(f_vscale)

    # path WD 2
    if Lpath.endswith(os.path.sep):
       Lpath = Lpath[:-1]

    # isFile = os.path.isfile(Lpath)
    # print("fichier?",isFile)
    fx_chkPath(Lpath)

    counterPath = Lpath.count(os.path.sep)

    csv_contents = "Path;Folder-file;Size in Byte;Size in Kb;Size in Mb;Size in Gb;type\n"

    csv_txt = csv_contents

    # csv_contents
    #     1-FOLDER PATH
    #     2-FILENAME
    #     3-FOLDER PATH FULL
    #     4-Size in Byte
    #     5-Size in Kb
    #     6-Size in Mb
    #     7-Size in Gb
    #     8-type\n

    ### BASIC LISTING #########
    if argz == 1:
        print("basic listing")
        file_paths = []
        file_paths.append([csv_contents])
        for root, dirs, files in os.walk(Lpath, topdown=True):
            for file in files:
                if tycsv == "csv":
                    vfolder_path = root + os.sep
                    vfile_name = "'" + file + "'"
                    vfolder_path_full = root + os.sep + file
                    csv_contents = "%s;%s;%s;%s;%s;%s;%s" % (vfolder_path, vfile_name , 'na', 'na', 'na','na', "folder")
                    file_paths.append([csv_contents])
                elif tycsv == "txt":
                    vfolder_path = root + os.sep
                    vfile_name = file
                    vfolder_path_full = root + os.sep + file
                    f_size = os.path.getsize(vfolder_path_full)
                    csv_txt += "%s;%s;%.0f;%.2f;%.2f;%.2f;%s" % (vfolder_path, vfile_name, f_size, f_size/1024, f_size/1048576,f_size/1073741824, "file\n")

        # APPEL FONCTION ECRIT ARRAY TO CSV
        if tycsv == "csv":
            fx_writeCSV(file_paths)
        elif tycsv == "txt":
        # APPEL FONCTION ECRIT STR TO CSV
            fx_writeCSV_str(csv_txt)

        print("job basic listing ok")

    ### ADVANCED LISTING ########
    elif argz == 2:
        print("advanced listing")

        if vvchkboxF == 0:
        #                      *** FOLDERS ONLY ***
            for root, dirs, files in os.walk(Lpath, topdown=False):
            ### calcul taille dossier
                f_size = 0
                for x, y, z in os.walk(root):
                    for i in z:
                        ftmp_che = x + os.sep + i
                        f_size += os.path.getsize(ftmp_che)
                ### ecriture taille dossier
                counter = root.count(os.path.sep) - counterPath
                vfile_name = root
                vfile_name = vfile_name + os.path.sep
                vfile_name = os.path.split(os.path.dirname(vfile_name))[1]
                vfile_name += os.path.sep
                if counter <= f_vscale:
                    csv_txt += "%s;%s;%.0f;%.2f;%.2f;%.2f;%s" % (root, vfile_name, f_size, f_size/1024, f_size/1048576,f_size/1073741824, "folder\n")

            fx_writeCSV_str(csv_txt)
            print("job adv listing folders ok")

        elif vvchkboxF == 1:
        #                    *** FOLDERS AND FILES ONLY ***
            for root, dirs, files in os.walk(Lpath, topdown=False):
            ### calcul taille dossier
                size = 0
                for x, y, z in os.walk(root):
                    for i in z:
                        ftmp_che = x + os.sep + i
                        f_size += os.path.getsize(ftmp_che)
                ### ecriture taille dossier
                counter = root.count(os.path.sep) - counterPath
                vfile_name = root
                vfile_name = vfile_name + os.path.sep
                vfile_name = os.path.split(os.path.dirname(vfile_name))[1]
                vfile_name += os.path.sep
                if counter <= f_vscale:
                    csv_contents += "%s;%s;%.0f;%.2f;%.2f;%.2f;%s\n" % (root, vfile_name, f_size, f_size/1024, f_size/1048576,f_size/1073741824, "folder")

            ### calcul +ecriture taille fichier
            for f in os.listdir(Lpath):
                path = os.path.join(Lpath, f)
                if os.path.isfile(path):
                    f_size = 0
                    f_size = os.path.getsize(path)
                    csv_contents += "%s;%s;%.0f;%.2f;%.2f;%.2f;%s\n" % (path, f, f_size, f_size/1024, f_size/1048576,f_size/1073741824, "file")

            fx_writeCSV_str(csv_contents)
            print("job adv listing files ok")
    return



###############################################################################
###############################################################################
###############################################################################
#####################################GUI#######################################
###############################################################################
###############################################################################
###############################################################################

locale.setlocale(locale.LC_ALL, "")

## MAIN WINDOW
root = Tk()
width  = int(root.winfo_screenwidth()/1.3)
height = int(root.winfo_screenheight()/1.29)
positionRight = int(width/7)
positionDown = int(height/8)

root.geometry('%sx%s+%s+%s' % (width, height, positionRight, positionDown))
root.title("Folders and files tool")

### MAKE TABS
tabCtrl = ttk.Notebook(root)
tab1 = ttk.Frame(tabCtrl)
tab2 = ttk.Frame(tabCtrl)
tab3 = ttk.Frame(tabCtrl)
tab4 = ttk.Frame(tabCtrl)
tabCtrl.add(tab1, text ='    Folders mgmt   ')
tabCtrl.add(tab2, text ='    Renamer   ')
tabCtrl.add(tab3, text ='    Something3   ')
tabCtrl.add(tab4, text ='    More infos   ')
tabCtrl.pack(expand = 1, fill ="both")

### Display Tabs
global vtxt_path
global var_scale
global vchkboxF
global vchkboxD
global vchkboxC
global vcsv_path


#######################///...///...///...///...///#######################
#                               TAB 1                                   #
#######################///...///...///...///...///#######################

### FRAME GLOB
frm10 = tk.Frame(tab1, bg="gray5")
frm10.pack(expand = 1, fill ="both")
# frm10.pack( side = LEFT, expand = True, fill = BOTH)

#######################
### FRAME 11 TOP LABEL
frm11 = tk.Frame(frm10, bg="gray5",highlightbackground="HoneyDew3", highlightcolor="HoneyDew3", highlightthickness=1)

frm11.place(width=475, height=140, x=20, y=20)

# Top label title
tk.Label(frm11,text ="Drive or folders", font=("Tahoma", 14, "normal"), fg='gray80', bg='gray5').place(x=20, y=10)

### LABEL PATH entry box
tk.Label(frm11, text="Enter Path (WD)", fg='gray80', bg='gray5').place(x=20, y=55)

# TEST FOLDER
new_text = "/media/ananas/HDD_500B/TEST_APP3/"

### PATH ENTRY BOX
vtxt_path=tk.StringVar(root,value=new_text) # Value saved here
txt_path = tk.Entry(frm11,width=43, textvariable=vtxt_path, fg='green').place(width=320, height=30, x=140, y=50)


# vtxt_path.set(new_text)
# TEST FOLDER zzz

### LABEL PATH example
tk.Label(frm11, text=r"Ex.: path for Windows: C:\Users\user\Documents\Dossier test", font=("Helvetica", 8, "italic"), fg='gray80', bg='gray5').place(width=320, height=30, x=130, y=80)

tk.Label(frm11, text=r"     path Linux: /home/user/Documents/Test dossier/", font=("Verdana", 8, "italic"), fg='gray80', bg='gray5').place(width=300, height=30, x=123, y=100)

### frame 11
###########################

###########################
### FRAME 12 TOP BUTTON SCAN ALL
frm12 = tk.Frame(frm10, bg="gray5",highlightbackground="HoneyDew3", highlightcolor="HoneyDew3", highlightthickness=1)
frm12.place(width=150, height=40, x=494, y=20)

### button
btn_scanALL = tk.Button(frm12, text="Basic listing",  bg='lightblue4', font=("Verdana", 10,"normal"))

btn_scanALL.pack(expand = 1, fill ="both",padx=0, pady=0)

### BUTTON BROWSE entry fx BASIC LISTING
btn_scanALL['command'] = fx_BasicListing

### frame 12
###########################

###########################
### FRAME 13 TOP BTN SCAN ADV + SLIDER
frm13 = tk.Frame(frm10, bg="gray5",highlightbackground="HoneyDew3", highlightcolor="HoneyDew3", highlightthickness=1, bd= 0)
frm13.place(width=540, height=100, x=494, y=60)

btn_scanADV = tk.Button(frm13, text="Advanced listing", bg='ivory4', font=("Verdana", 10,"normal"))
btn_scanADV.place(width=150, height=40, x=0, y=0)

### BUTTON BROWSE entry fx ADVANCED LISTING
btn_scanADV['command'] = fx_AdvancedListing

### slider
var_scale = tk.DoubleVar()
tk.Label(frm13, text="Subfolders level", font=("Verdana", 8, "italic"), fg='gray80', bg='gray5').place(width=150, height=10, x=0, y=46)

wslide = tk.Scale(frm13,bg='ivory4', fg='grey5', from_=0, to=10, variable = var_scale, orient=tk.HORIZONTAL)
wslide.place(width=150, height=40, x=0, y=58)
wslide.set(3)
### frame 13
###########################

###########################
### FRAME 14 TOP BTN SCAN ADV + CHECKBUTTONS
frm14 = tk.Frame(frm10, bg="gray5",highlightbackground="HoneyDew3", highlightcolor="HoneyDew3", highlightthickness=1, bd= 0)
frm14.place(width=190, height=100, x=645, y=60)

vchkboxF=tk.IntVar()
chkbox=tk.Checkbutton(frm14, highlightthickness=0,bd=0,text="Include files", font=("Verdana", 9, "normal"), fg='gray80', bg='gray5', variable=vchkboxF, offvalue=0, onvalue=1)
chkbox.place(x=0, y=5)

vchkboxD=tk.IntVar()
chkbox=tk.Checkbutton(frm14, highlightthickness=0,bd=0,text="Include modification date", font=("Verdana", 9, "normal"), fg='gray80', bg='gray5', variable=vchkboxD, offvalue=0, onvalue=1)
chkbox.place(x=0, y=25)

vchkboxC=tk.IntVar()
chkbox=tk.Checkbutton(frm14, highlightthickness=0,bd=0,text="Include creation date", font=("Verdana", 9, "normal"), fg='gray80', bg='gray5', variable=vchkboxC, offvalue=0, onvalue=1)
chkbox.place(x=0, y=45)
### frame 14
###########################

###########################
### FRAME 15 TREEVIEW
frm15 = tk.Frame(frm10, bg="gray5",highlightbackground="HoneyDew3", highlightcolor="HoneyDew3", highlightthickness=1, bd= 0)
frm15.place(width=1000, height=350, x=20, y=175)

container = ttk.Frame(frm15)
# container.place(width=1015, height=350, x=20, y=175)
container.pack()

style = ttk.Style()
style.theme_use("clam")
style.configure("Treeview", background="lemonchiffon3",font=('Tahoma', 9),
                fieldbackground="lemonchiffon3", foreground="grey10")

style.configure("Treeview.Heading", font=('Tahoma', 10),foreground='orange4')

tree = ttk.Treeview(frm15, columns=('1', '2', '3', '4', '5', '6', '7'))
vsb = ttk.Scrollbar(orient="vertical", command=tree.yview)
hsb = ttk.Scrollbar(orient="horizontal", command=tree.xview)
vsb.place(x=1021, y=231,width=15, height=307,)
hsb.place(x=22, y=540,width=1000, height=15,)
tree.configure(yscrollcommand=vsb.set, xscrollcommand=hsb.set)
container.grid_columnconfigure(0, weight=1)
container.grid_rowconfigure(0, weight=1)

tree.column('#1', width=180, stretch=YES)
tree.column('#2', width=240, stretch=YES)
tree.column('#3', width=10, stretch=YES)
tree.column('#4', width=5, stretch=YES)
tree.column('#5', width=5, stretch=YES)
tree.column('#6', width=5, stretch=YES)
tree.column('#7', width=25, stretch=YES)

tree.heading('#1', text='Path')
tree.heading('#2', text='Folder-file')
tree.heading('#3', text='Byte')
tree.heading('#4', text='Kb')
tree.heading('#5', text='Mb')
tree.heading('#6', text='Gb')
tree.heading('#7', text='Object type')

tree['show'] = 'headings'

tree.pack(fill=BOTH,expand=1)

### frame 15
###########################

###########################
### FRAME 16 CSV DIAL
frm16 = tk.Frame(frm10, bg="gray5",highlightbackground="HoneyDew3", highlightcolor="HoneyDew3", highlightthickness=1, bd= 0)
frm16.place(width=480, height=30, x=20, y=530)

# csv lbl
tk.Label(frm16,text ="Default folder for csv file (change...)", font=("Verdana", 8, "normal"), fg='gray80', bg='gray5').place(x=10, y=5)

# csv folder entry box
vcsv_path=tk.StringVar() # Value saved here
txt_csv = tk.Entry(frm16,width=43, textvariable=vcsv_path, fg='green').place(width=265, x=210, y=3)
full_path = os.path.realpath(__file__)
new_text = os.path.dirname(full_path) + os.sep + 'csv_folder' + os.sep
vcsv_path.set(new_text)

###############################################################################
###############################################################################
###############################################################################

###############################################################################
###############################################################################
###############################################################################

def fx_FileRen():

    Lpath = vtxt_path3.get()
    print('%s' % Lpath)

    # path WD 2
    if Lpath.endswith(os.path.sep):
       Lpath = Lpath[:-1]

    print('%s' % Lpath)

    msg.showwarning("File names", "File names changed")

    # with open(csv_file_title) as csvfile:
    #     csvreader = csv.reader(csvfile, delimiter=';', quotechar='"')
    #     for row in csvreader:
    #         name = row[0]
    #         new = row[1]
    #         if os.path.exists(name):
    #             os.rename(name, new)
    #         else:
    #             print(name + " does not exist")


###############################################################################

def fx_FoldRen():

    csv_file_title = 'csv_1_baselisting.csv'
    print('%s' % csv_file_title)

    # with open(CSV_FILE,'w', newline ='\n') as f:
    #     write = csv.writer(f, doublequote=True, delimiter=';')
    #     for row in arr:
    #         write.writerows(row)


    msg.showwarning("Folder names", "Folders names changed")

###############################################################################
###############################################################################
###############################################################################

###############################################################################
###############################################################################
###############################################################################


#######################///...///...///...///...///#######################
#                               TAB 2                                   #
#######################///...///...///...///...///#######################

### FRAME GLOB
frm20 = tk.Frame(tab2, bg="gray5")
frm20.pack(expand = 1, fill ="both")
# frm10.pack( side = LEFT, expand = True, fill = BOTH)

#######################
### FRAME 21a FOLDER PATH
frm21a = tk.Frame(frm20, bg="gray5",highlightbackground="HoneyDew3", highlightcolor="HoneyDew3", highlightthickness=1)

frm21a.place(width=950, height=100, x=20, y=45)

# Top label title
tk.Label(frm21a,text ="Folder path to list folders files to csv", font=("Tahoma", 14, "normal"), fg='gray80', bg='gray5').place(x=20, y=10)

vtxt_path1a=tk.StringVar(root, value=new_text) # Value saved here
txt_path1a = tk.Entry(frm21a,width=43, textvariable=vtxt_path1a, fg='blue').place(width=620, height=30, x=140, y=50)

#######################
### FRAME 21 LABEL FILES RENAME
frm21 = tk.Frame(frm20, bg="gray5",highlightbackground="HoneyDew3", highlightcolor="HoneyDew3", highlightthickness=1)

frm21.place(width=775, height=100, x=20, y=185)

# Top label title
tk.Label(frm21,text ="Rename files only from csv file below", font=("Tahoma", 14, "normal"), fg='gray80', bg='gray5').place(x=20, y=10)

### LABEL FILES RENAME entry box
tk.Label(frm21, text="CSV file path", fg='gray80', bg='gray5').place(x=20, y=55)

# TEST FOLDER
full_path = os.path.realpath(__file__)
new_text = os.path.dirname(full_path) + os.sep + 'csv_folder' + os.sep + "csvtxt_1_filenamelisting.csv"
# vtxt_path2.set(new_text)

### PATH ENTRY BOX
vtxt_path2=tk.StringVar(root, value=new_text) # Value saved here
txt_path2 = tk.Entry(frm21,width=43, textvariable=vtxt_path2, fg='blue').place(width=620, height=30, x=140, y=50)

# TEST FOLDER zzz

###########################
### FRAME 22 TOP BUTTON FILE RENAME
frm22 = tk.Frame(frm20, bg="gray5",highlightbackground="HoneyDew3", highlightcolor="HoneyDew3", highlightthickness=1)
frm22.place(width=150, height=40, x=820, y=220)

### button
btn_FileRen = tk.Button(frm22, text="Files rename",  bg='lightblue4', font=("Verdana", 10,"normal"))

btn_FileRen.pack(expand = 1, fill ="both",padx=0, pady=0)

### BUTTON BROWSE entry fx BASIC LISTING
btn_FileRen['command'] = fx_FileRen


#######################
### FRAME 23 LABEL FOLDERS RENAME
frm23 = tk.Frame(frm20, bg="gray5",highlightbackground="HoneyDew3", highlightcolor="HoneyDew3", highlightthickness=1)

frm23.place(width=775, height=100, x=20, y=320)

# Top label title
tk.Label(frm23,text ="Rename folders only from csv file below", font=("Tahoma", 14, "normal"), fg='gray80', bg='gray5').place(x=20, y=10)

### LABEL PATH entry box
tk.Label(frm23, text="CSV file path", fg='gray80', bg='gray5').place(x=20, y=55)

# TEST FOLDER
full_path = os.path.realpath(__file__)
new_text = os.path.dirname(full_path) + os.sep + 'csv_folder' + os.sep + "csvtxt_1_foldernamelisting.csv"
# vtxt_path2.set(new_text)

### PATH ENTRY BOX
vtxt_path3=tk.StringVar(root, value=new_text) # Value saved here
txt_path3 = tk.Entry(frm23,width=43, textvariable=vtxt_path3, fg='brown').place(width=620, height=30, x=140, y=50)

# TEST FOLDER zzz

###########################
### FRAME 24 BUTTON FOLDERS RENAME
frm24 = tk.Frame(frm20, bg="gray5",highlightbackground="HoneyDew3", highlightcolor="HoneyDew3", highlightthickness=1)
frm24.place(width=150, height=40, x=820, y=345)

### button
btn_FoldRen = tk.Button(frm24, text="Folders rename",  bg='brown', font=("Verdana", 10,"normal"))

btn_FoldRen.pack(expand = 1, fill ="both",padx=0, pady=0)

### BUTTON BROWSE entry fx BASIC LISTING
btn_FoldRen['command'] = fx_FoldRen


#######################///...///...///...///...///#######################
#                               TAB 3                                   #
#######################///...///...///...///...///#######################




#######################///...///...///...///...///#######################
#                               zZZZz                                   #
#######################///...///...///...///...///#######################

if __name__ == '__main__':
    root.mainloop()

From barpasc at yahoo.com  Mon Jan 11 07:12:40 2021
From: barpasc at yahoo.com (pascal z)
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 2021 04:12:40 -0800 (PST)
Subject: learning python building 2nd app, need advices
In-Reply-To: <878s8zn0ol.fsf@hornfels.zedat.fu-berlin.de>
References: <3170f050-4d37-4a64-96cb-f3718a3ef2aan@googlegroups.com>
 <a7b9a82c-6351-4df5-59eb-f12c71c62985@Damon-Family.org>
 <6da92d5c-29c9-45b6-9078-5f1fef7a1b34n@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.684.1610155654.7193.python-list@python.org>
 <37329709-b300-4c1e-af88-8ed0d6de588bn@googlegroups.com>
 <878s8zn0ol.fsf@hornfels.zedat.fu-berlin.de>
Message-ID: <54047773-adf2-4b9f-a465-6a040f773a42n@googlegroups.com>

On Monday, January 11, 2021 at 12:00:28 PM UTC, Loris Bennett wrote:
> pascal z <bar... at yahoo.com> writes: 
> 
> > tab to space on linux is not something easy to do 
> 
> I would argue that you are mistaken, although that depends somewhat on 
> your definition of 'easy'. 
> 
> > , I had to launch windows and use notepad++. 
> 
> There is the Linux command 'expand' , which I have never used, but which 
> sounds like it will do what you want: 
> 
> $ expand --help 
> Usage: expand [OPTION]... [FILE]... 
> Convert tabs in each FILE to spaces, writing to standard output. 
> 
> As an Emacs user, personally I would use the command 
> 
> M-x untabify 
> 
> within Emacs. I assume that Vim has something similar. 
> 
> Cheers, 
> 
> Loris 
> 
> -- 
> This signature is currently under construction.


Thanks, I'm going to try

As alternative, I pasted it into github and pasted it back into this page, it's ok when pasting but when posting it fails keeping spaces... Until I can find a way to do it, this is the github link 

https://github.com/barpasc/listfiles/blob/main/pyFilesGest_6B18.py

From greg.ewing at canterbury.ac.nz  Mon Jan 11 08:45:07 2021
From: greg.ewing at canterbury.ac.nz (Greg Ewing)
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 2021 02:45:07 +1300
Subject: learning python building 2nd app, need advices
In-Reply-To: <54047773-adf2-4b9f-a465-6a040f773a42n@googlegroups.com>
References: <3170f050-4d37-4a64-96cb-f3718a3ef2aan@googlegroups.com>
 <a7b9a82c-6351-4df5-59eb-f12c71c62985@Damon-Family.org>
 <6da92d5c-29c9-45b6-9078-5f1fef7a1b34n@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.684.1610155654.7193.python-list@python.org>
 <37329709-b300-4c1e-af88-8ed0d6de588bn@googlegroups.com>
 <878s8zn0ol.fsf@hornfels.zedat.fu-berlin.de>
 <54047773-adf2-4b9f-a465-6a040f773a42n@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <i63333Fp3dnU1@mid.individual.net>

On 12/01/21 1:12 am, pascal z wrote:
> As alternative, I pasted it into github and pasted it back into this page, it's ok when pasting but when posting it fails keeping spaces...

The indentation in your last three posts looks fine here in
the comp.lang.python newsgroup. If it doesn't look right to
you, it may be the fault of whatever you're using to read
the group.

-- 
Greg

From barpasc at yahoo.com  Mon Jan 11 08:58:32 2021
From: barpasc at yahoo.com (pascal z)
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 2021 05:58:32 -0800 (PST)
Subject: learning python building 2nd app, need advices
In-Reply-To: <i63333Fp3dnU1@mid.individual.net>
References: <3170f050-4d37-4a64-96cb-f3718a3ef2aan@googlegroups.com>
 <a7b9a82c-6351-4df5-59eb-f12c71c62985@Damon-Family.org>
 <6da92d5c-29c9-45b6-9078-5f1fef7a1b34n@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.684.1610155654.7193.python-list@python.org>
 <37329709-b300-4c1e-af88-8ed0d6de588bn@googlegroups.com>
 <878s8zn0ol.fsf@hornfels.zedat.fu-berlin.de>
 <54047773-adf2-4b9f-a465-6a040f773a42n@googlegroups.com>
 <i63333Fp3dnU1@mid.individual.net>
Message-ID: <ad2363d5-896b-4942-9042-71d182ab4708n@googlegroups.com>

On Monday, January 11, 2021 at 1:45:31 PM UTC, Greg Ewing wrote:
> On 12/01/21 1:12 am, pascal z wrote: 
> > As alternative, I pasted it into github and pasted it back into this page, it's ok when pasting but when posting it fails keeping spaces...
> The indentation in your last three posts looks fine here in 
> the comp.lang.python newsgroup. If it doesn't look right to 
> you, it may be the fault of whatever you're using to read 
> the group. 
> 
> -- 
> Greg

@Greg, then if you want, you can post these from what you're using. I tried sending a few times and it seemed it didn't work when refreshing the google group discussion page. However, just looking now at the discussion through emails, shows indentation right. I'm using firefox. I'll try using chromium for later posts if that makes things easier.

From rosuav at gmail.com  Mon Jan 11 09:05:07 2021
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 2021 01:05:07 +1100
Subject: [Python-authors] Query
In-Reply-To: <CAFwcP0gU9b7p3pfzyeYV5bMktDoPz4oP3iAZ6rYRe_kSPWD1WA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <VE1PR09MB3024B3E7D288FF73018A27078AAE0@VE1PR09MB3024.eurprd09.prod.outlook.com>
 <CAFwcP0gU9b7p3pfzyeYV5bMktDoPz4oP3iAZ6rYRe_kSPWD1WA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmo2Bhygrdwxx-xDs_KyG884vt424j7FiKfnJdQukozP_g@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Jan 11, 2021 at 10:36 PM George Fischhof <george at fischhof.hu> wrote:
>
> Eduardo Em?n Mu?oz <eledu998 at hotmail.com> ezt ?rta (id?pont: 2021. jan. 8.,
> P, 17:23):
>
> > Dear Srs,
> >
> >      I apologize if this is not the right place to ask this question, I am
> > Biologist teaching Python language (in spanish)  focused in Molecular
> > Biology.
> >
> >      People interested often ask me if my classes/course has a valid
> > certification and I have to say no, so my question is :
> >
> >     What can I do for provide a valid diploma with the Python logo to my
> > students? I mean, how I would be allowed to give a valid
> > Python logo on my students diploma? I have tried to contact local
> > institutions like Biology's college, Education Ministry , etc but no
> > success at all.
> >
> > Many thanks for your time reading this email, sorry for my poor english
> > and thanks in advance.
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Python-authors mailing list
> > Python-authors at python.org
> > https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-authors
>
>
> Hi,
>
> the good forum for similar questions is  python-list at python.org mail list -
> I think ;-)
>
> Right _now_ Microsoft created a Python exam, I do not know how much is that
> appreciated, or accepted, but there is.
> As I know this is the only one somewhat standardised exam now.
> Of course there are several institutes holding Python course and exam
>

Sounds like a legal question regarding the use of the trademark? If
so, contact psf-trademarks at python.org - they should be able to help
you.

ChrisA

From rosuav at gmail.com  Mon Jan 11 09:06:31 2021
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 2021 01:06:31 +1100
Subject: learning python building 2nd app, need advices
In-Reply-To: <ad2363d5-896b-4942-9042-71d182ab4708n@googlegroups.com>
References: <3170f050-4d37-4a64-96cb-f3718a3ef2aan@googlegroups.com>
 <a7b9a82c-6351-4df5-59eb-f12c71c62985@Damon-Family.org>
 <6da92d5c-29c9-45b6-9078-5f1fef7a1b34n@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.684.1610155654.7193.python-list@python.org>
 <37329709-b300-4c1e-af88-8ed0d6de588bn@googlegroups.com>
 <878s8zn0ol.fsf@hornfels.zedat.fu-berlin.de>
 <54047773-adf2-4b9f-a465-6a040f773a42n@googlegroups.com>
 <i63333Fp3dnU1@mid.individual.net>
 <ad2363d5-896b-4942-9042-71d182ab4708n@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmpb0bdA1fErMwe9yfFJkeGRWyTz=wXDS5WOO5_+95oyTw@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Jan 12, 2021 at 1:01 AM pascal z via Python-list
<python-list at python.org> wrote:
>
> On Monday, January 11, 2021 at 1:45:31 PM UTC, Greg Ewing wrote:
> > On 12/01/21 1:12 am, pascal z wrote:
> > > As alternative, I pasted it into github and pasted it back into this page, it's ok when pasting but when posting it fails keeping spaces...
> > The indentation in your last three posts looks fine here in
> > the comp.lang.python newsgroup. If it doesn't look right to
> > you, it may be the fault of whatever you're using to read
> > the group.
> >
> > --
> > Greg
>
> @Greg, then if you want, you can post these from what you're using. I tried sending a few times and it seemed it didn't work when refreshing the google group discussion page. However, just looking now at the discussion through emails, shows indentation right. I'm using firefox. I'll try using chromium for later posts if that makes things easier.
>

Easy fix: stop looking at the Google Group page.

ChrisA

From barpasc at yahoo.com  Mon Jan 11 09:34:42 2021
From: barpasc at yahoo.com (pascal z)
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 2021 06:34:42 -0800 (PST)
Subject: learning python building 2nd app, need advices
In-Reply-To: <mailman.698.1610374005.7193.python-list@python.org>
References: <3170f050-4d37-4a64-96cb-f3718a3ef2aan@googlegroups.com>
 <a7b9a82c-6351-4df5-59eb-f12c71c62985@Damon-Family.org>
 <6da92d5c-29c9-45b6-9078-5f1fef7a1b34n@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.684.1610155654.7193.python-list@python.org>
 <37329709-b300-4c1e-af88-8ed0d6de588bn@googlegroups.com>
 <878s8zn0ol.fsf@hornfels.zedat.fu-berlin.de>
 <54047773-adf2-4b9f-a465-6a040f773a42n@googlegroups.com>
 <i63333Fp3dnU1@mid.individual.net>
 <CAPTjJmpb0bdA1fErMwe9yfFJkeGRWyTz=wXDS5WOO5_+95oyTw@mail.gmail.com>
 <ad2363d5-896b-4942-9042-71d182ab4708n@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.698.1610374005.7193.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <a5b3d97c-7538-4b14-881d-6501f5c3e3d3n@googlegroups.com>

On Monday, January 11, 2021 at 2:07:03 PM UTC, Chris Angelico wrote:
> On Tue, Jan 12, 2021 at 1:01 AM pascal z via Python-list 
> <pytho... at python.org> wrote: 
> > 
> > On Monday, January 11, 2021 at 1:45:31 PM UTC, Greg Ewing wrote: 
> > > On 12/01/21 1:12 am, pascal z wrote: 
> > > > As alternative, I pasted it into github and pasted it back into this page, it's ok when pasting but when posting it fails keeping spaces... 
> > > The indentation in your last three posts looks fine here in 
> > > the comp.lang.python newsgroup. If it doesn't look right to 
> > > you, it may be the fault of whatever you're using to read 
> > > the group. 
> > > 
> > > -- 
> > > Greg 
> > 
> > @Greg, then if you want, you can post these from what you're using. I tried sending a few times and it seemed it didn't work when refreshing the google group discussion page. However, just looking now at the discussion through emails, shows indentation right. I'm using firefox. I'll try using chromium for later posts if that makes things easier. 
> >
> Easy fix: stop looking at the Google Group page. 
> 
> ChrisA
ok, emails show post fine. 10 years ago or something, I was quite involved to comp.lang.c and I don't remember having this issue. Of course, only Python needs formatting speficities but from what I can remember, indentation was working fine then. One more thing, is that there was a lot less ads than now. And comp.lang.python seems to show more ads than other groups like comp.lang.c

From 2QdxY4RzWzUUiLuE at potatochowder.com  Mon Jan 11 10:03:40 2021
From: 2QdxY4RzWzUUiLuE at potatochowder.com (2QdxY4RzWzUUiLuE at potatochowder.com)
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 2021 09:03:40 -0600
Subject: learning python building 2nd app, need advices
In-Reply-To: <a5b3d97c-7538-4b14-881d-6501f5c3e3d3n@googlegroups.com>
References: <6da92d5c-29c9-45b6-9078-5f1fef7a1b34n@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.684.1610155654.7193.python-list@python.org>
 <37329709-b300-4c1e-af88-8ed0d6de588bn@googlegroups.com>
 <878s8zn0ol.fsf@hornfels.zedat.fu-berlin.de>
 <54047773-adf2-4b9f-a465-6a040f773a42n@googlegroups.com>
 <i63333Fp3dnU1@mid.individual.net>
 <CAPTjJmpb0bdA1fErMwe9yfFJkeGRWyTz=wXDS5WOO5_+95oyTw@mail.gmail.com>
 <ad2363d5-896b-4942-9042-71d182ab4708n@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.698.1610374005.7193.python-list@python.org>
 <a5b3d97c-7538-4b14-881d-6501f5c3e3d3n@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <X/xozOcqslWUJ+SF@scrozzle>

On 2021-01-11 at 06:34:42 -0800,
pascal z via Python-list <python-list at python.org> wrote:

> On Monday, January 11, 2021 at 2:07:03 PM UTC, Chris Angelico wrote:

> > Easy fix: stop looking at the Google Group page. 
> > 
> > ChrisA
> ok, emails show post fine. 10 years ago or something, I was quite
> involved to comp.lang.c and I don't remember having this issue. Of
> course, only Python needs formatting speficities but from what I can
> remember, indentation was working fine then. One more thing, is that
> there was a lot less ads than now. And comp.lang.python seems to show
> more ads than other groups like comp.lang.c

I read the mailing list.  With an email client.  No ads.

Start at <https://www.python.org/community/lists/>, join the mailing
list, and stop using Google.

From tjreedy at udel.edu  Mon Jan 11 06:54:02 2021
From: tjreedy at udel.edu (Terry Reedy)
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 2021 06:54:02 -0500
Subject: learning python building 2nd app, need advices
In-Reply-To: <37329709-b300-4c1e-af88-8ed0d6de588bn@googlegroups.com>
References: <3170f050-4d37-4a64-96cb-f3718a3ef2aan@googlegroups.com>
 <a7b9a82c-6351-4df5-59eb-f12c71c62985@Damon-Family.org>
 <6da92d5c-29c9-45b6-9078-5f1fef7a1b34n@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.684.1610155654.7193.python-list@python.org>
 <37329709-b300-4c1e-af88-8ed0d6de588bn@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <rthe8q$qoh$1@ciao.gmane.io>

On 1/11/2021 6:46 AM, pascal z via Python-list wrote:
> tab to space on linux is not something easy to do,

IDLE has a tab to spaces command on the format menu.


-- 
Terry Jan Reedy


From grant.b.edwards at gmail.com  Mon Jan 11 10:34:32 2021
From: grant.b.edwards at gmail.com (Grant Edwards)
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 2021 15:34:32 -0000 (UTC)
Subject: learning python building 2nd app, need advices
References: <3170f050-4d37-4a64-96cb-f3718a3ef2aan@googlegroups.com>
 <a7b9a82c-6351-4df5-59eb-f12c71c62985@Damon-Family.org>
 <6da92d5c-29c9-45b6-9078-5f1fef7a1b34n@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.684.1610155654.7193.python-list@python.org>
 <37329709-b300-4c1e-af88-8ed0d6de588bn@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <rthr68$dao$1@ciao.gmane.io>

On 2021-01-11, pascal z via Python-list <python-list at python.org> wrote:

> tab to space on linux is not something easy to do,

Nonsense, there's a command _specifically_ for that:

$ man expand

--
Grant


From grant.b.edwards at gmail.com  Mon Jan 11 10:37:08 2021
From: grant.b.edwards at gmail.com (Grant Edwards)
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 2021 15:37:08 -0000 (UTC)
Subject: learning python building 2nd app, need advices
References: <6da92d5c-29c9-45b6-9078-5f1fef7a1b34n@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.684.1610155654.7193.python-list@python.org>
 <37329709-b300-4c1e-af88-8ed0d6de588bn@googlegroups.com>
 <878s8zn0ol.fsf@hornfels.zedat.fu-berlin.de>
 <54047773-adf2-4b9f-a465-6a040f773a42n@googlegroups.com>
 <i63333Fp3dnU1@mid.individual.net>
 <CAPTjJmpb0bdA1fErMwe9yfFJkeGRWyTz=wXDS5WOO5_+95oyTw@mail.gmail.com>
 <ad2363d5-896b-4942-9042-71d182ab4708n@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.698.1610374005.7193.python-list@python.org>
 <a5b3d97c-7538-4b14-881d-6501f5c3e3d3n@googlegroups.com>
 <X/xozOcqslWUJ+SF@scrozzle>
Message-ID: <rthrb4$dao$2@ciao.gmane.io>

On 2021-01-11, 2QdxY4RzWzUUiLuE at potatochowder.com <2QdxY4RzWzUUiLuE at potatochowder.com> wrote:
> On 2021-01-11 at 06:34:42 -0800,
> pascal z via Python-list <python-list at python.org> wrote:
>
>> On Monday, January 11, 2021 at 2:07:03 PM UTC, Chris Angelico wrote:
>
>> > Easy fix: stop looking at the Google Group page. 
>>
>> ok, emails show post fine. 10 years ago or something, I was quite
>> involved to comp.lang.c and I don't remember having this issue. Of
>> course, only Python needs formatting speficities but from what I can
>> remember, indentation was working fine then. One more thing, is that
>> there was a lot less ads than now. And comp.lang.python seems to show
>> more ads than other groups like comp.lang.c
>
> I read the mailing list.  With an email client.  No ads.
>
> Start at <https://www.python.org/community/lists/>, join the mailing
> list, and stop using Google.

Or point your favorite NNTP client at nntp://news.gmane.io/gmane.comp.python.general

Google Groops is definitely the wrong answer.

--
Grant






From don81846 at comcast.net.REMOVEME  Mon Jan 11 15:37:58 2021
From: don81846 at comcast.net.REMOVEME (DonK)
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 2021 15:37:58 -0500
Subject: A beginning beginner's question about input, output and . . .
Message-ID: <i1apvfhooqevl9gkol3ic0itcbdoi0m6a4@4ax.com>


Hi, I'm thinking about learning Python but I'm 74 years old and will
very likely not ever have a programming job again. I used to program
in Visual Basic, C\C++, Delphi, etc. and some obscure "mainframe"
languages. It's been about 18-19 years since my last programming job.
I do understand programming concepts but I'm really not up on any of
the more modern programming languages.

I've installed Python 3.7, the PyCharm IDE and watched some Youtube
tutorials but it's been stretched out over about 1.5 years so I'll
probably need to go back to the beginning. My problem is that I don't
understand how Python programs are used. (i.e user input and output)
Is Python mainly used for backends?

I've seen some Python gui frameworks like Tkinter, PyQt, etc. but they
look kinda like adding a family room onto a 1986 double wide mobile
home, and they look even more complicated than creating a GUI from
scratch in C++ with a message loop, raising events . . .

So, what do you folks use Python for?

Nowdays I mainly just use programming for rather small utilities for
my personal use. Currently I'd like to write something to iterate
through open windows and save them to different folders depending on
if the titlebar contains certain strings. In the past I would probably
have used Excel's VBA to do this but I no longer have Excel installed
on my main computer. I'd like a bit of a challenge but I don't want to
spin my wheels trying to learn something that will be a dead end for
me.

I know that this probably seems like a stupid post but your input will
be useful.

Thank you.

   Don

I know that Python is a very popular language so I'm sorry if it
sounds like I'm being critical. I really don't know enough about it to
be critical.

From rosuav at gmail.com  Mon Jan 11 15:54:34 2021
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 2021 07:54:34 +1100
Subject: A beginning beginner's question about input, output and . . .
In-Reply-To: <i1apvfhooqevl9gkol3ic0itcbdoi0m6a4@4ax.com>
References: <i1apvfhooqevl9gkol3ic0itcbdoi0m6a4@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmqhnPZZ30E2y-id6H5tXJMgstaNX8un6Q2gJw5zz3zG8w@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Jan 12, 2021 at 7:41 AM DonK <don81846 at comcast.net.removeme> wrote:
>
>
> Hi, I'm thinking about learning Python but I'm 74 years old and will
> very likely not ever have a programming job again. I used to program
> in Visual Basic, C\C++, Delphi, etc. and some obscure "mainframe"
> languages. It's been about 18-19 years since my last programming job.
> I do understand programming concepts but I'm really not up on any of
> the more modern programming languages.
>
> I've installed Python 3.7, the PyCharm IDE and watched some Youtube
> tutorials but it's been stretched out over about 1.5 years so I'll
> probably need to go back to the beginning. My problem is that I don't
> understand how Python programs are used. (i.e user input and output)
> Is Python mainly used for backends?
>

Python is used in many different ways. I'd recommend focusing first on
the simple console input and output, which are available as the
input() and print() built-in functions; those are sufficient for a
vast majority of situations. Beyond that, you run into what's best
described as "inherent complexity"; building a good user interface is,
by its nature, not simple.

If it's easier, you can look into using a web browser as your user
interface. Python is superb at building web servers and web
applications, so you can easily design your app so the user interacts
with it using a very simple browser-based front end - either with
JavaScript or as a really easy form fill-out.

ChrisA

From PythonList at DancesWithMice.info  Mon Jan 11 16:36:02 2021
From: PythonList at DancesWithMice.info (dn)
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 2021 10:36:02 +1300
Subject: A beginning beginner's question about input, output and . . .
In-Reply-To: <i1apvfhooqevl9gkol3ic0itcbdoi0m6a4@4ax.com>
References: <i1apvfhooqevl9gkol3ic0itcbdoi0m6a4@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <12519996-c202-803e-87c3-704fa43e231d@DancesWithMice.info>

On 12/01/2021 09.37, DonK wrote:
> 
> Hi, I'm thinking about learning Python but I'm 74 years old and will
> very likely not ever have a programming job again. I used to program
> in Visual Basic, C\C++, Delphi, etc. and some obscure "mainframe"
> languages. It's been about 18-19 years since my last programming job.
> I do understand programming concepts but I'm really not up on any of
> the more modern programming languages.
> 
> I've installed Python 3.7, the PyCharm IDE and watched some Youtube
> tutorials but it's been stretched out over about 1.5 years so I'll
> probably need to go back to the beginning. My problem is that I don't
> understand how Python programs are used. (i.e user input and output)
> Is Python mainly used for backends?
> 
> I've seen some Python gui frameworks like Tkinter, PyQt, etc. but they
> look kinda like adding a family room onto a 1986 double wide mobile
> home, and they look even more complicated than creating a GUI from
> scratch in C++ with a message loop, raising events . . .
> 
> So, what do you folks use Python for?
> 
> Nowdays I mainly just use programming for rather small utilities for
> my personal use. Currently I'd like to write something to iterate
> through open windows and save them to different folders depending on
> if the titlebar contains certain strings. In the past I would probably
> have used Excel's VBA to do this but I no longer have Excel installed
> on my main computer. I'd like a bit of a challenge but I don't want to
> spin my wheels trying to learn something that will be a dead end for
> me.


Your question is very broad. Python is used for an incredibly wide
variety of purposes.

Frankly, why worry about my uses for Python, the only important stuff is
what you want to do with it!

There are plenty of articles 'out there' which discuss using Excel
[data] with Python, why one should prefer Python to Excel, etc. Try:
https://info.cambridgespark.com/latest/python-vs-excel (BTW with Python
and appropriate libraries, the Excel package itself is not required)

One way to learn is to ask the question: how do I do xyz in Python? You
have some background, so will be able to ask reasonably 'educated' and
valid questions. This will feel faster, but is by definition a
piece-meal approach.

Us 'silver surfers' often prefer a more structured (and complete)
approach, and preferably one which looks at the semantics of the
language (in Python we talk of idioms and the "Zen of Python") not
merely the syntax. Thus, I recommend (free or $) MOOCs on the edX or
Coursera platforms (amongst others).

As you say, the profession has 'moved on' and there are fresh approaches
and new angles to get one's head around... So, it's not just "Python" then!

PS you will likely find the Python-Tutor mailing list solid assistance.
-- 
Regards =dn

From cs at cskk.id.au  Mon Jan 11 17:11:37 2021
From: cs at cskk.id.au (Cameron Simpson)
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 2021 09:11:37 +1100
Subject: A beginning beginner's question about input, output and . . .
In-Reply-To: <i1apvfhooqevl9gkol3ic0itcbdoi0m6a4@4ax.com>
References: <i1apvfhooqevl9gkol3ic0itcbdoi0m6a4@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <X/zNGaH7WaL9Oa55@cskk.homeip.net>

On 11Jan2021 15:37, DonK <don81846 at comcast.net.REMOVEME> wrote:
>Hi, I'm thinking about learning Python but I'm 74 years old and will
>very likely not ever have a programming job again. I used to program
>in Visual Basic, C\C++, Delphi, etc. and some obscure "mainframe"
>languages.

Therefore you're happy with classes, and are presumably with a Windows 
background. (And, of course, the mainframe world.)

>I've installed Python 3.7, the PyCharm IDE and watched some Youtube
>tutorials but it's been stretched out over about 1.5 years so I'll
>probably need to go back to the beginning. My problem is that I don't
>understand how Python programs are used. (i.e user input and output)
>Is Python mainly used for backends?

My personal Python use is almost all backend, and on a personal basis I 
spend most of my time at a command prompt in a terminal window.

However, you can write fully fledged GUI applications in Python.

Without a GUI Python programmes tend to work off their input and write 
to their output (or other files) like any other command line programme.

Chris mentioned input() for reading input and print() for writing 
output. input() is an interactive function (it accepts a prompt string 
and reads a single line of text). If you're writing something batchy, 
which might be in a pipeline or reading from a text file, then the 
standard input is sys.stdin and can be read in various ways - when that 
is text the typical way is just to iterate over it in a for-loop, which 
gets your lines of text.

Trite example:

    import sys
    ........
    ........
    lineno = 0
    for line in sys.stdin:
        lineno += 1
        print("line number", lineno, "text =", line)

>I've seen some Python gui frameworks like Tkinter, PyQt, etc. but they
>look kinda like adding a family room onto a 1986 double wide mobile
>home, and they look even more complicated than creating a GUI from
>scratch in C++ with a message loop, raising events . . .

They aren't really. I've not use Tkinter, but I have used PyQt. You 
still have the usual framework:

- contruct widgets (windows and other GUI elements) with the associated 
  code which runs when you interact with them

- an event loop (usually simply entered after constructing the main GUI 
  component(s)) - it will run until told to stop

- raising events - in PyQt these are called "signals" - you issue a 
  signel/event with whatever information it uses and the event loop runs 
  its handler in due course

Part of the difficulty with PyQt (for me) is that it is a Python shim 
onto a quite large C++ widget library. Most of the actual doco seems to 
be the C++ side, and you need to infer some stuff to use it from Python.  
The shim is very one-to-one, so that works pretty well.

I gather that Tkinter is easier to get off the ground with.

>So, what do you folks use Python for?

Personally, almost entirely command line stuff, and making 
libraries/modules/packages which implement what I need.

>Nowdays I mainly just use programming for rather small utilities for
>my personal use.

Me too.

>Currently I'd like to write something to iterate
>through open windows and save them to different folders depending on
>if the titlebar contains certain strings. In the past I would probably
>have used Excel's VBA to do this but I no longer have Excel installed
>on my main computer. I'd like a bit of a challenge but I don't want to
>spin my wheels trying to learn something that will be a dead end for
>me.

This requires Windows specific knowledge, which I lack. Saving to 
folders etc is standard stuff, but the "iterate through open windows" 
and consulting their titlebar strings is platform, and maybe app, 
specific. I'm not a Windows person, alas.

>I know that this probably seems like a stupid post but your input will
>be useful.

No, it's entirely reasonable. Getting off the ground with a 
useful-to-you task is always the first hurdle with a new language.

Cheers,
Cameron Simpson <cs at cskk.id.au>

From rosuav at gmail.com  Mon Jan 11 17:26:18 2021
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 2021 09:26:18 +1100
Subject: A beginning beginner's question about input, output and . . .
In-Reply-To: <i1apvfhooqevl9gkol3ic0itcbdoi0m6a4@4ax.com>
References: <i1apvfhooqevl9gkol3ic0itcbdoi0m6a4@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmpYmb1k=P4-uZ6vUTn23ry2sqTN6HM8B6DKgr0K80xj_A@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Jan 12, 2021 at 7:41 AM DonK <don81846 at comcast.net.removeme> wrote:
> Hi, I'm thinking about learning Python but I'm 74 years old and will
> very likely not ever have a programming job again. I used to program
> in Visual Basic, C\C++, Delphi, etc. and some obscure "mainframe"
> languages.

BTW, from my experience, there's very very few languages so obscure
that not one person on this list has heard of them :)

For example, I've used REXX, which is an IBM language found on some of
the mainframes and also on OS/2, and I'm not the only person here who
has.

ChrisA

From drsalists at gmail.com  Mon Jan 11 18:52:55 2021
From: drsalists at gmail.com (Dan Stromberg)
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 2021 15:52:55 -0800
Subject: A beginning beginner's question about input, output and . . .
In-Reply-To: <X/zNGaH7WaL9Oa55@cskk.homeip.net>
References: <i1apvfhooqevl9gkol3ic0itcbdoi0m6a4@4ax.com>
 <X/zNGaH7WaL9Oa55@cskk.homeip.net>
Message-ID: <CAGGBd_pHbwGgwd=z_GSM_GpTQOVf1=03YSh8tGSjUbLLF47xYw@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Jan 11, 2021 at 2:22 PM Cameron Simpson <cs at cskk.id.au> wrote:

> >I've seen some Python gui frameworks like Tkinter, PyQt, etc. but they
> >look kinda like adding a family room onto a 1986 double wide mobile
> >home, and they look even more complicated than creating a GUI from
> >scratch in C++ with a message loop, raising events . . .
>
> They aren't really. I've not use Tkinter, but I have used PyQt.
>

Maybe compared to Java or C# they are, which come with almost the only GUI
toolkit that gets used.  But there's also a version of Qt for Java.  Not
sure about C#.

I've mostly used GTK for GUI's and a little Tkinter for turtle graphics,
both in Python.  Both felt natural.

From cs at cskk.id.au  Mon Jan 11 18:59:22 2021
From: cs at cskk.id.au (Cameron Simpson)
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 2021 10:59:22 +1100
Subject: A beginning beginner's question about input, output and . . .
In-Reply-To: <CAGGBd_pHbwGgwd=z_GSM_GpTQOVf1=03YSh8tGSjUbLLF47xYw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAGGBd_pHbwGgwd=z_GSM_GpTQOVf1=03YSh8tGSjUbLLF47xYw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <X/zmWm+5K53y5Kn/@cskk.homeip.net>

On 11Jan2021 15:52, Dan Stromberg <drsalists at gmail.com> wrote:
>On Mon, Jan 11, 2021 at 2:22 PM Cameron Simpson <cs at cskk.id.au> wrote:
>> >I've seen some Python gui frameworks like Tkinter, PyQt, etc. but 
>> >they
>> >look kinda like adding a family room onto a 1986 double wide mobile
>> >home, and they look even more complicated than creating a GUI from
>> >scratch in C++ with a message loop, raising events . . .
>>
>> They aren't really. I've not use Tkinter, but I have used PyQt.
>
>Maybe compared to Java or C# they are, which come with almost the only GUI
>toolkit that gets used.  But there's also a version of Qt for Java.  Not
>sure about C#.

Hmm, in the distant past I did write a small GUI app using Java. It was 
a little simpler than (current) Qt to my (fuzzy) recollection, but that 
might be partly because the toolkit itself was smaller. Unsure now.

Cheers,
Cameron Simpson <cs at cskk.id.au>

From greg.ewing at canterbury.ac.nz  Mon Jan 11 23:10:33 2021
From: greg.ewing at canterbury.ac.nz (Greg Ewing)
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 2021 17:10:33 +1300
Subject: A beginning beginner's question about input, output and . . .
In-Reply-To: <i1apvfhooqevl9gkol3ic0itcbdoi0m6a4@4ax.com>
References: <i1apvfhooqevl9gkol3ic0itcbdoi0m6a4@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <i64lprF437eU1@mid.individual.net>

On 12/01/21 9:37 am, DonK wrote:
> 
> I've seen some Python gui frameworks like Tkinter, PyQt, etc. but they
> look kinda like adding a family room onto a 1986 double wide mobile
> home, and they look even more complicated than creating a GUI from
> scratch in C++ with a message loop, raising events . . .

I'm surprised you find any of those toolkits more complicated
to use than the raw Windows API, which last time I dabbled in it
seemed fairly horrendous.

Unfortunately there doesn't seem to be a really good way to
easily make GUIs in Python. I tried to fill that gap a few years
back with PyGUI:

https://www.cosc.canterbury.ac.nz/greg.ewing/python_gui/

You might like to check that out, but be warned that a few bits
of it are broken at the moment. It's badly in need of an overhaul,
and I don't have time to devote to it right now.

> So, what do you folks use Python for?

Personal uses I can think of in recent times:

* Command line tools for various small tasks, often parts of
build systems for other projects.

* Games, using pygame, pyopengl, numpy and various other libraries.

> Currently I'd like to write something to iterate
> through open windows and save them to different folders depending on
> if the titlebar contains certain strings.

That sounds like it should be doable if you can get access to the
right Windows API functions. Check out the pywin32 package. If that
doesn't provide what you need, there's always ctypes (part of the
standard python distribution, gives low-level access to C library
functions).

-- 
Greg

From rosuav at gmail.com  Tue Jan 12 01:07:16 2021
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 2021 17:07:16 +1100
Subject: A beginning beginner's question about input, output and . . .
In-Reply-To: <i64lprF437eU1@mid.individual.net>
References: <i1apvfhooqevl9gkol3ic0itcbdoi0m6a4@4ax.com>
 <i64lprF437eU1@mid.individual.net>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmq6HiLOyZEjOh9dCR8_DAQKZgpni0Pe5-SqxGRrAr7Obw@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Jan 12, 2021 at 3:16 PM Greg Ewing <greg.ewing at canterbury.ac.nz> wrote:
> > Currently I'd like to write something to iterate
> > through open windows and save them to different folders depending on
> > if the titlebar contains certain strings.
>
> That sounds like it should be doable if you can get access to the
> right Windows API functions. Check out the pywin32 package. If that
> doesn't provide what you need, there's always ctypes (part of the
> standard python distribution, gives low-level access to C library
> functions).
>

Sounds like an awful lot of work. On Linux, I'd just subprocess out to
wmctrl and parse its output - way easier.

ChrisA

From arj.python at gmail.com  Tue Jan 12 01:16:47 2021
From: arj.python at gmail.com (Abdur-Rahmaan Janhangeer)
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 2021 10:16:47 +0400
Subject: A beginning beginner's question about input, output and . . .
In-Reply-To: <i1apvfhooqevl9gkol3ic0itcbdoi0m6a4@4ax.com>
References: <i1apvfhooqevl9gkol3ic0itcbdoi0m6a4@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <CADrxXX=BHkXr2Fw5boMDHo5myaMSAyZf8-z_fO7VNZr-OF=GuQ@mail.gmail.com>

Greetings,

Web with Python is really easy to get started with, here
is a simple endpoint with a framework called Flask

from flask import Flask
app = Flask(__name__)

@app.route('/')
def hello_world():
   return 'Hello World?

if __name__ == '__main__':
   app.run()

As for Tkinter, it's really annoying.
PyQt5 and others are a lot better.
PyQt5 follows the Cpp function namings

Kind Regards,

Abdur-Rahmaan Janhangeer
about <https://compileralchemy.github.io/> | blog
<https://www.pythonkitchen.com>
github <https://github.com/Abdur-RahmaanJ>
Mauritius


On Tue, Jan 12, 2021 at 12:43 AM DonK <don81846 at comcast.net.removeme> wrote:

>
> Hi, I'm thinking about learning Python but I'm 74 years old and will
> very likely not ever have a programming job again. I used to program
> in Visual Basic, C\C++, Delphi, etc. and some obscure "mainframe"
> languages. It's been about 18-19 years since my last programming job.
> I do understand programming concepts but I'm really not up on any of
> the more modern programming languages.
>
> I've installed Python 3.7, the PyCharm IDE and watched some Youtube
> tutorials but it's been stretched out over about 1.5 years so I'll
> probably need to go back to the beginning. My problem is that I don't
> understand how Python programs are used. (i.e user input and output)
> Is Python mainly used for backends?
>
> I've seen some Python gui frameworks like Tkinter, PyQt, etc. but they
> look kinda like adding a family room onto a 1986 double wide mobile
> home, and they look even more complicated than creating a GUI from
> scratch in C++ with a message loop, raising events . . .
>
> So, what do you folks use Python for?
>
> Nowdays I mainly just use programming for rather small utilities for
> my personal use. Currently I'd like to write something to iterate
> through open windows and save them to different folders depending on
> if the titlebar contains certain strings. In the past I would probably
> have used Excel's VBA to do this but I no longer have Excel installed
> on my main computer. I'd like a bit of a challenge but I don't want to
> spin my wheels trying to learn something that will be a dead end for
> me.
>
> I know that this probably seems like a stupid post but your input will
> be useful.
>
> Thank you.
>
>    Don
>
> I know that Python is a very popular language so I'm sorry if it
> sounds like I'm being critical. I really don't know enough about it to
> be critical.
> --
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
>

From songbird at anthive.com  Tue Jan 12 00:55:07 2021
From: songbird at anthive.com (songbird)
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 2021 00:55:07 -0500
Subject: A beginning beginner's question about input, output and . . .
References: <i1apvfhooqevl9gkol3ic0itcbdoi0m6a4@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <r6qvch-sme.ln1@anthive.com>

DonK wrote:
>
> Hi, I'm thinking about learning Python but I'm 74 years old and will
> very likely not ever have a programming job again. I used to program
> in Visual Basic, C\C++, Delphi, etc. and some obscure "mainframe"
> languages. It's been about 18-19 years since my last programming job.
> I do understand programming concepts but I'm really not up on any of
> the more modern programming languages.

  hi Don,

  you sound like you have a similar perspective to my own
except i'm a bit younger.  :)


> I've installed Python 3.7, the PyCharm IDE and watched some Youtube
> tutorials but it's been stretched out over about 1.5 years so I'll
> probably need to go back to the beginning. My problem is that I don't
> understand how Python programs are used. (i.e user input and output)
> Is Python mainly used for backends?

  it can be used for pretty much anything except perhaps
high pressure real time things, but i bet someone else will
know that is being done too, i've just not heard of it.  :)


> I've seen some Python gui frameworks like Tkinter, PyQt, etc. but they
> look kinda like adding a family room onto a 1986 double wide mobile
> home, and they look even more complicated than creating a GUI from
> scratch in C++ with a message loop, raising events . . .

  i tried pyglet just because it was the first one that i
could figure out without it being too complicated.


> So, what do you folks use Python for?

  for me i used it to learn python and wrote a simple game
which adapted an already existing game written in C to python.
since i don't really understand python and have issues with
some concepts it hasn't gone much further lately and i'm
ok with that.


> Nowdays I mainly just use programming for rather small utilities for
> my personal use. Currently I'd like to write something to iterate
> through open windows and save them to different folders depending on
> if the titlebar contains certain strings. In the past I would probably
> have used Excel's VBA to do this but I no longer have Excel installed
> on my main computer. I'd like a bit of a challenge but I don't want to
> spin my wheels trying to learn something that will be a dead end for
> me.

  i am so familiar with Bash shell script language and C 
that either of those would normally be my first choice
because i already have tools done for enough things and
i know what i'm doing.

  for python i just spend too much time fumbling around
and i don't really know what is current and if i'm using
something that will be kept up for the future or if the
project is going away or in a direction that i won't like
(both KDE and Gnome desktops messed me up with what they
did after i spent a lot of time finding them, getting
them set up and then they changed and i switched only to
have the other do the same to me so i switched again to
Mate and that at least has been more stable to my style of
doing things).

  uh, so, i think i do understand your aims and perspective
and hope you can get further in your goals.  :)


> I know that this probably seems like a stupid post but your input will
> be useful.
>
> Thank you.
>
>    Don
>
> I know that Python is a very popular language so I'm sorry if it
> sounds like I'm being critical. I really don't know enough about it to
> be critical.

  heh, well, if you go back and read some of my previous posts
here you'd see a lot of dumb things i've said too.  don't worry.
i'm sure i'll make other dumb posts too, but at the moment i'm
mostly in a holding pattern for a while.  i have a few other
big projects i need to finish before i get back to python again.


  songbird

From rosuav at gmail.com  Tue Jan 12 01:34:10 2021
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 2021 17:34:10 +1100
Subject: A beginning beginner's question about input, output and . . .
In-Reply-To: <r6qvch-sme.ln1@anthive.com>
References: <i1apvfhooqevl9gkol3ic0itcbdoi0m6a4@4ax.com>
 <r6qvch-sme.ln1@anthive.com>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmoDhx_sTDpMyhUk0w80GWpf73AqMihRJmBj-5KGUM2gDQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Jan 12, 2021 at 5:26 PM songbird <songbird at anthive.com> wrote:
>   for python i just spend too much time fumbling around
> and i don't really know what is current and if i'm using
> something that will be kept up for the future or if the
> project is going away or in a direction that i won't like
> (both KDE and Gnome desktops messed me up with what they
> did after i spent a lot of time finding them, getting
> them set up and then they changed and i switched only to
> have the other do the same to me so i switched again to
> Mate and that at least has been more stable to my style of
> doing things).

That's not really something Python can ever control, but I can say
with some confidence that the big libraries like Qt and GTK are going
to adapt, one way or another. And perhaps more importantly: Neither
input()/print() nor web applications is going *anywhere*. You are
ALWAYS going to have those two as options.

ChrisA

From grant.b.edwards at gmail.com  Mon Jan 11 16:09:08 2021
From: grant.b.edwards at gmail.com (Grant Edwards)
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 2021 21:09:08 -0000 (UTC)
Subject: A beginning beginner's question about input, output and . . .
References: <i1apvfhooqevl9gkol3ic0itcbdoi0m6a4@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <rtiepk$hii$1@ciao.gmane.io>

On 2021-01-11, DonK <don81846 at comcast.net.REMOVEME> wrote:

> So, what do you folks use Python for?

I mainly use it for writing command-line utilities. Many of them work
on either Windows or Linux, but are mostly used on Linux:

 * Two-pass symbolic assembler and dissassembler for a proprietary
   communications controller.

 * Utilties to encrypt/decrypt files in proprietary formats.

 * Protocol dissector that prints the contents of network traffic for
   a couple different proprietary protocols.  It will parse a file
   saved with Wireshark/tcpdump or it will display live traffic using
   libpcap.

 * A utility to discover and manage a couple different families of
   industrial products (discovery, configiration) using a proprietary
   UDP protocol.

 * Utilities to program firmware into various products and
   microprocessors.

 * Utilities to perform various operations (e.g. run-length encoding)
   on things like FPGA bitstream files.

 * Utilities that implement various serial protocols for testing
   devices that use those protocols.

 * Scraping my favorite comic strips from various web sites and
   compiling them into a local web page.

 * Utilties for working with industrial control devices using
   DeviceNet on CAN bus.

 * An email gateway daemon that accepted SMTP mail and relayed it to MS
   Exchange using WebDAV.

 * An email gateway daemon that fetched email from MS Exchnage using
   Outlook/DCOM and relayed to an SMTP server.

 * Custom SMTP servers used to test SMTP clients.
 

I also wire the occasional GUI application:

 * A GTK "terminal" application that connects to a serial port.

 * A GTK IMAP mailbox notification app that monitors any number of
   IMAP mailboxes and notifies the user when there is new mail.

 * WxWindows and Tk applications to do various device management tasks
   for industrial equipment (update firmware, change configurations,
   etc.) via TCP and UDP network protocols.

 * WxWindows utilities for working with industrial control devices
   using DeviceNet on CAN bus.

I've also written web "backend" code that gathers and archives data
from my solar panels every 10 minutes and then produces graphs and
charts on demand for AJAX web applications.

Where I work we also use Python to run our production stations --
testing and programming circuit boards and assembled products.

There are also a couple commercial applicatoins I use daily (but
didn't write) that are written in Python:

 Hiri (email client)
 Plex (DVR and home theater application)



From grant.b.edwards at gmail.com  Tue Jan 12 10:18:05 2021
From: grant.b.edwards at gmail.com (Grant Edwards)
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 2021 15:18:05 -0000 (UTC)
Subject: A beginning beginner's question about input, output and . . .
References: <i1apvfhooqevl9gkol3ic0itcbdoi0m6a4@4ax.com>
 <r6qvch-sme.ln1@anthive.com>
Message-ID: <rtkejd$h8k$1@ciao.gmane.io>

On 2021-01-12, songbird <songbird at anthive.com> wrote:

>   it can be used for pretty much anything except perhaps
> high pressure real time things, but i bet someone else will
> know that is being done too, i've just not heard of it.  :)

AFAIK, Python can't be used to write device drivers for any popular OS
(Linux, Unix, Windows, OSX). It also can't be used on small embedded
systems (real-time or not).

--
Grant




From rosuav at gmail.com  Tue Jan 12 11:32:56 2021
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Wed, 13 Jan 2021 03:32:56 +1100
Subject: A beginning beginner's question about input, output and . . .
In-Reply-To: <rtkejd$h8k$1@ciao.gmane.io>
References: <i1apvfhooqevl9gkol3ic0itcbdoi0m6a4@4ax.com>
 <r6qvch-sme.ln1@anthive.com> <rtkejd$h8k$1@ciao.gmane.io>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmr3Hgo3QzWNtBe5EbQLgGMpv8aUMGbMLBf6t4fDYuyHKg@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Jan 13, 2021 at 3:18 AM Grant Edwards <grant.b.edwards at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> On 2021-01-12, songbird <songbird at anthive.com> wrote:
>
> >   it can be used for pretty much anything except perhaps
> > high pressure real time things, but i bet someone else will
> > know that is being done too, i've just not heard of it.  :)
>
> AFAIK, Python can't be used to write device drivers for any popular OS
> (Linux, Unix, Windows, OSX). It also can't be used on small embedded
> systems (real-time or not).
>

Depends how small. An RPi has a full Linux system and can easily run
Python scripts; and the pyboard runs a dedicated Python interpreter
called MicroPython, broadly compatible with CPython 3.5, I think (some
3.x version, anyhow), albeit with a cut-down standard library. The
pyboard is pretty tiny; according to the micropython.org blurb, it has
192KB RAM.

ChrisA

From rshepard at appl-ecosys.com  Tue Jan 12 11:37:15 2021
From: rshepard at appl-ecosys.com (Rich Shepard)
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 2021 08:37:15 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Application window geometry specifier
Message-ID: <alpine.LNX.2.20.2101120831280.12379@salmo.appl-ecosys.com>

I want my application's window (main frame) to open centered on the
monitor's screen. This code:
 	# open application centered on screen; set window width and height
         self.appwidth = 600
         self.appheight = 500
         # get screen width and height
         self.scrwidth = self.winfo_screenwidth()
         self.scrheight = self.winfo_screenheight()
         # formula to find screen center
         self.xLeft = (self.scrwidth/2) - (self.appwidth/2)
         self.yTop = (self.scrheight/2) - (self.appheight/2)
         # set geometry
         self.geometry(str(self.appwidth) + "x" + str(self.appheight) +
                       "+" + str(self.xLeft) + "+" + str(self.yTop))

generates this error when run:
  File "/usr/lib64/python3.9/tkinter/__init__.py", line 2036, in wm_geometry
     return self.tk.call('wm', 'geometry', self._w, newGeometry)
_tkinter.TclError: bad geometry specifier "600x500+340.0+262.0"

As the geometry string represents window width times window height plus x-offset
plus y-offset I'm not seeing my error.

Please show me what's wrong with specifier.

TIA,

Rich

From rosuav at gmail.com  Tue Jan 12 11:44:38 2021
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Wed, 13 Jan 2021 03:44:38 +1100
Subject: Application window geometry specifier
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LNX.2.20.2101120831280.12379@salmo.appl-ecosys.com>
References: <alpine.LNX.2.20.2101120831280.12379@salmo.appl-ecosys.com>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmpqG21j2rVTqUJg_-=_6RWg50rnUi_8KdDc3kSHpzO6Ng@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Jan 13, 2021 at 3:38 AM Rich Shepard <rshepard at appl-ecosys.com> wrote:
>
> I want my application's window (main frame) to open centered on the
> monitor's screen. This code:
>         # open application centered on screen; set window width and height
>          self.appwidth = 600
>          self.appheight = 500
>          # get screen width and height
>          self.scrwidth = self.winfo_screenwidth()
>          self.scrheight = self.winfo_screenheight()
>          # formula to find screen center
>          self.xLeft = (self.scrwidth/2) - (self.appwidth/2)
>          self.yTop = (self.scrheight/2) - (self.appheight/2)
>          # set geometry
>          self.geometry(str(self.appwidth) + "x" + str(self.appheight) +
>                        "+" + str(self.xLeft) + "+" + str(self.yTop))
>
> generates this error when run:
>   File "/usr/lib64/python3.9/tkinter/__init__.py", line 2036, in wm_geometry
>      return self.tk.call('wm', 'geometry', self._w, newGeometry)
> _tkinter.TclError: bad geometry specifier "600x500+340.0+262.0"
>
> As the geometry string represents window width times window height plus x-offset
> plus y-offset I'm not seeing my error.
>

Do the offsets need to be integers?

ChrisA

From mstemper at gmail.com  Tue Jan 12 11:40:17 2021
From: mstemper at gmail.com (Michael F. Stemper)
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 2021 10:40:17 -0600
Subject: A beginning beginner's question about input, output and . . .
In-Reply-To: <i1apvfhooqevl9gkol3ic0itcbdoi0m6a4@4ax.com>
References: <i1apvfhooqevl9gkol3ic0itcbdoi0m6a4@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <rtkjdo$pa1$1@dont-email.me>

On 11/01/2021 14.37, DonK wrote:

> I've installed Python 3.7, the PyCharm IDE and watched some Youtube
> tutorials

I would suggest that instead of watching tutorials, you open up your IDE
and start writing stuff. Get an introductory python book (I used the
O'Reilly _Introducing Python_), start at the beginning, and type in each
example. Then, tweak it to see what happens.

> I've seen some Python gui frameworks like Tkinter, PyQt, etc. but they
> look kinda like adding a family room onto a 1986 double wide mobile
> home, and they look even more complicated than creating a GUI from
> scratch in C++ with a message loop, raising events . . .

I haven't really got my head around GUI programming myself. I tried to
write one with tkinter based on on-line examples, but didn't have any
conceptual framekwork, so it didn't work too well. I saw in a post here
that there are actually books on it, so I might pick one up and try
again.

> So, what do you folks use Python for?

Since you asked:

Various command-line utilities, including:
- comparing the contents of two directories
- ad-hoc linear regression
- validation of DTDs
- sanity check of nesting symbols in TeX files
- ad-hoc plotting

Maintaining and querying of data bases:
- five-minute values of local temperatures
- Action items for an organization of which I'm secretary
- my own to-do list
- non-isomorphic groups that have isomorphic character tables

Modeling of electric power systems:
- load behavior in response to conservation load reduction
- generator and governor response to system load
- economic dispatch of generators, including those with non-monotonic 
incremental cost curves
(last two are very much works in progress)

Mathematics:
- experiments with number theory and combinatorics
- composition of permutations of a set
- properties of minimal paths through a C_m x C_n lattice
- generating tikz commands for geometric diagrams in TeX documents
- unstructured and uneducated exploration of Conway's Game of Life

-- 
Michael F. Stemper
2 Chronicles 19:7

From ikorot01 at gmail.com  Tue Jan 12 11:57:44 2021
From: ikorot01 at gmail.com (Igor Korot)
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 2021 10:57:44 -0600
Subject: Application window geometry specifier
In-Reply-To: <CAPTjJmpqG21j2rVTqUJg_-=_6RWg50rnUi_8KdDc3kSHpzO6Ng@mail.gmail.com>
References: <alpine.LNX.2.20.2101120831280.12379@salmo.appl-ecosys.com>
 <CAPTjJmpqG21j2rVTqUJg_-=_6RWg50rnUi_8KdDc3kSHpzO6Ng@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CA+FnnTwS8A2zQkSJiJVL3Toid+0Xg_bm90mTKArxC-qY1X62SA@mail.gmail.com>

Hi,

On Tue, Jan 12, 2021 at 10:47 AM Chris Angelico <rosuav at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> On Wed, Jan 13, 2021 at 3:38 AM Rich Shepard <rshepard at appl-ecosys.com> wrote:
> >
> > I want my application's window (main frame) to open centered on the
> > monitor's screen.

Keep in mind that if you target Linux, the "modern" window server (Wayland)
will not allow user code to decide the positioning and size of the TLW.

Instead some renderer will make the decision for you and place it appropriately.

So you may re-think that design. ;-)

Thank you.


>> This code:
> >         # open application centered on screen; set window width and height
> >          self.appwidth = 600
> >          self.appheight = 500
> >          # get screen width and height
> >          self.scrwidth = self.winfo_screenwidth()
> >          self.scrheight = self.winfo_screenheight()
> >          # formula to find screen center
> >          self.xLeft = (self.scrwidth/2) - (self.appwidth/2)
> >          self.yTop = (self.scrheight/2) - (self.appheight/2)
> >          # set geometry
> >          self.geometry(str(self.appwidth) + "x" + str(self.appheight) +
> >                        "+" + str(self.xLeft) + "+" + str(self.yTop))
> >
> > generates this error when run:
> >   File "/usr/lib64/python3.9/tkinter/__init__.py", line 2036, in wm_geometry
> >      return self.tk.call('wm', 'geometry', self._w, newGeometry)
> > _tkinter.TclError: bad geometry specifier "600x500+340.0+262.0"
> >
> > As the geometry string represents window width times window height plus x-offset
> > plus y-offset I'm not seeing my error.
> >
>
> Do the offsets need to be integers?
>
> ChrisA
> --
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

From rshepard at appl-ecosys.com  Tue Jan 12 12:37:50 2021
From: rshepard at appl-ecosys.com (Rich Shepard)
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 2021 09:37:50 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Application window geometry specifier [RESOLVED]
In-Reply-To: <CAPTjJmpqG21j2rVTqUJg_-=_6RWg50rnUi_8KdDc3kSHpzO6Ng@mail.gmail.com>
References: <alpine.LNX.2.20.2101120831280.12379@salmo.appl-ecosys.com>
 <CAPTjJmpqG21j2rVTqUJg_-=_6RWg50rnUi_8KdDc3kSHpzO6Ng@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.LNX.2.20.2101120936480.12379@salmo.appl-ecosys.com>

On Wed, 13 Jan 2021, Chris Angelico wrote:

> Do the offsets need to be integers?

ChrisA,

Yep. I totally missed that.

Thanks for seeing it.

Stay well,

Rich

From rshepard at appl-ecosys.com  Tue Jan 12 12:38:56 2021
From: rshepard at appl-ecosys.com (Rich Shepard)
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 2021 09:38:56 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Application window geometry specifier
In-Reply-To: <CA+FnnTwS8A2zQkSJiJVL3Toid+0Xg_bm90mTKArxC-qY1X62SA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <alpine.LNX.2.20.2101120831280.12379@salmo.appl-ecosys.com>
 <CAPTjJmpqG21j2rVTqUJg_-=_6RWg50rnUi_8KdDc3kSHpzO6Ng@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+FnnTwS8A2zQkSJiJVL3Toid+0Xg_bm90mTKArxC-qY1X62SA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.LNX.2.20.2101120938140.12379@salmo.appl-ecosys.com>

On Tue, 12 Jan 2021, Igor Korot wrote:

> Keep in mind that if you target Linux, the "modern" window server
> (Wayland) will not allow user code to decide the positioning and size of
> the TLW.

Igor,

I suspect that Slackware will continue with X11.

Rich

From python at mrabarnett.plus.com  Tue Jan 12 12:35:58 2021
From: python at mrabarnett.plus.com (MRAB)
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 2021 17:35:58 +0000
Subject: A beginning beginner's question about input, output and . . .
In-Reply-To: <i1apvfhooqevl9gkol3ic0itcbdoi0m6a4@4ax.com>
References: <i1apvfhooqevl9gkol3ic0itcbdoi0m6a4@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <be10017d-776a-08d6-0cab-9cc9a3a8f354@mrabarnett.plus.com>

On 2021-01-11 20:37, DonK wrote:
> 
[snip]
> 
> So, what do you folks use Python for?
> 
Since we're sharing:

- Personal information manager in the form of a tree of pages. Each page 
can have code associated with it which defines functions to call when 
shortcut keys are pressed, giving page-specific shortcuts for 
page-specific functionality.

- Simple money manager.

Both use tkinter.

From mstemper at gmail.com  Tue Jan 12 12:47:28 2021
From: mstemper at gmail.com (Michael F. Stemper)
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 2021 11:47:28 -0600
Subject: A beginning beginner's question about input, output and . . .
In-Reply-To: <rtkjdo$pa1$1@dont-email.me>
References: <i1apvfhooqevl9gkol3ic0itcbdoi0m6a4@4ax.com>
 <rtkjdo$pa1$1@dont-email.me>
Message-ID: <rtknbg$n6$1@dont-email.me>

On 12/01/2021 10.40, Michael F. Stemper wrote:

> Modeling of electric power systems:
> - load behavior in response to conservation load reduction

Sorry, that should have been "conservation voltage reduction".


-- 
Michael F. Stemper
Psalm 82:1-4

From ikorot01 at gmail.com  Tue Jan 12 12:56:01 2021
From: ikorot01 at gmail.com (Igor Korot)
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 2021 11:56:01 -0600
Subject: Application window geometry specifier
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LNX.2.20.2101120938140.12379@salmo.appl-ecosys.com>
References: <alpine.LNX.2.20.2101120831280.12379@salmo.appl-ecosys.com>
 <CAPTjJmpqG21j2rVTqUJg_-=_6RWg50rnUi_8KdDc3kSHpzO6Ng@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+FnnTwS8A2zQkSJiJVL3Toid+0Xg_bm90mTKArxC-qY1X62SA@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.LNX.2.20.2101120938140.12379@salmo.appl-ecosys.com>
Message-ID: <CA+FnnTzvLsb6m9bb-+eH89-QrQJC+qDffrsZNOSk0kRYU2gJOA@mail.gmail.com>

Hi,

On Tue, Jan 12, 2021, 11:44 AM Rich Shepard <rshepard at appl-ecosys.com>
wrote:

> On Tue, 12 Jan 2021, Igor Korot wrote:
>
> > Keep in mind that if you target Linux, the "modern" window server
> > (Wayland) will not allow user code to decide the positioning and size of
> > the TLW.
>
> Igor,
>
> I suspect that Slackware will continue with X11.
>

Maybe. :-)

But it looks Wayland becomes more and more popular.

Thank you.


> Rich
> --
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
>

From drp4kri at gmail.com  Tue Jan 12 12:58:59 2021
From: drp4kri at gmail.com (Dhimant Patel)
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 2021 09:58:59 -0800 (PST)
Subject: argparse presence of switch
Message-ID: <20f77a6a-0331-4455-a7bd-05901e014994n@googlegroups.com>

Its what I searched for on this group.

I want to have an argument's presence only - value is not required.
For example, my program main.py needs to know if "-r" is present when program is invoked. 
So the value command line would be:
(1) python3 main.py -r 
or...
(1) python3 main.py

I tried following:
parser.add_argument('-r','--register', help='Register it')

Since argument started with "-" it should be optional, but absence of it causes following error:

main.py: error: argument -r/--register: expected one argument

I added 
parser.add_argument('-r','--register', default=None,  help='Register it')

No avail - same error.

If I apply -r on the command line, it still expects a value!

Not sure what should I do?

Any help appreciated- 

Thanks!





From phoenix1987 at gmail.com  Tue Jan 12 13:04:14 2021
From: phoenix1987 at gmail.com (Gabriele Tornetta)
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 2021 10:04:14 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [ANN] Austin -- CPython frame stack sampler v2.1.1 is now available
Message-ID: <93769ab7-71f4-4058-8040-c04e4a2fb274n@googlegroups.com>

I am delighted to announce the release 2.1.1 of Austin. If you haven't
heard of Austin before, it is an open-source frame stack sampler for
CPython, distributed under the GPLv3 license. It can be used to obtain
statistical profiling data out of a running Python application without a
single line of instrumentation. This means that you can start profiling a
Python application straight away, even while it's running on a production
environment, with minimal impact on performance.

The simplest way of using Austin is by piping its output to FlameGraph or uploading it to speedscope.app for a quick and detailed representation of the collected samples.

Austin is a pure C application that has no other dependencies other than
the C standard library. Its source code is hosted on GitHub at

https://github.com/P403n1x87/austin

The README contains installation and usage details, as well as some
examples of Austin in action. Details on how to contribute to Austin's
development can be found at the bottom of the page.

Austin can be installed easily on the following platforms and from the
following sources:

Linux:
- Snap Store
- Debian repositories
- Conda Forge

macOS:
- Homebrew
- Conda Forge

Windows:
- Chocolatey
- Scoop

Austin is also simple to compile from sources as it only depends on the
standard C library, if you don't have access to the above-listed repositories.

This new release of Austin brings enhanced support for many Python binary distributions across all the supported platforms, as well as a bugfix for the line number reporting. If you rely on Austin 2, upgrading to the latest version is strongly recommended.

Let me also remind you of some of the other existing Python tools powered by Austin, which have also seen new releases in the past few days, and that are easily available from PyPI:

https://github.com/P403n1x87/austin-tui
https://github.com/P403n1x87/austin-web
https://github.com/P403n1x87/pytest-austin

These tools are built using the austin-python library, which is also available from PyPI, with source code hosted at

https://github.com/P403n1x87/austin-python

For anyone wishing to build their own Austin-powered tools, the austin-python documentation is hosted on RTD at

https://austin-python.readthedocs.io/en/latest/

You can stay up-to-date with the project's development by following
Austin on Twitter (https://twitter.com/AustinSampler).

All the best,
Gabriele

<p><a href="https://github.com/P403n1x87/austin">Austin 2.1.1</a> -
frame stack sampler for CPython. (12-Jan-21)</p>

From rosuav at gmail.com  Tue Jan 12 13:13:29 2021
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Wed, 13 Jan 2021 05:13:29 +1100
Subject: argparse presence of switch
In-Reply-To: <20f77a6a-0331-4455-a7bd-05901e014994n@googlegroups.com>
References: <20f77a6a-0331-4455-a7bd-05901e014994n@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmohPm0o=XV+w7qMbSgi+bzkSRb5cpUKUkg8Y6Rhf2_jiw@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Jan 13, 2021 at 5:01 AM Dhimant Patel <drp4kri at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Its what I searched for on this group.
>
> I want to have an argument's presence only - value is not required.
> For example, my program main.py needs to know if "-r" is present when program is invoked.
> So the value command line would be:
> (1) python3 main.py -r
> or...
> (1) python3 main.py
>
> I tried following:
> parser.add_argument('-r','--register', help='Register it')
>
> Since argument started with "-" it should be optional, but absence of it causes following error:
>
> main.py: error: argument -r/--register: expected one argument

This is what different actions are for. I'd probably use
action="store_true" here; that should mean that args.register will be
set to True if "-r" was passed, or False if it wasn't.

ChrisA

From david at lowryduda.com  Tue Jan 12 13:18:48 2021
From: david at lowryduda.com (David Lowry-Duda)
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 2021 13:18:48 -0500
Subject: argparse presence of switch
In-Reply-To: <20f77a6a-0331-4455-a7bd-05901e014994n@googlegroups.com>
References: <20f77a6a-0331-4455-a7bd-05901e014994n@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <20210112181848.GB1789293@icerm-dld>

> I want to have an argument's presence only - value is not required.
> For example, my program main.py needs to know if "-r" is present when program is invoked. 
> So the value command line would be:
> (1) python3 main.py -r 
> or...
> (1) python3 main.py
> 
> I tried following:
> parser.add_argument('-r','--register', help='Register it')

You should use the "store_true" action, or perhaps some other action.

A complete minimal working sample is as follows.


import argparse

parser = argparse.ArgumentParser()
parser.add_argument("-r", "--register", help="Register it",
                    action="store_true")
args = parser.parse_args()
if args.register:
    print("Seen register")


For more, I suggest reading the quick tutorial in the documentation, 
available at https://docs.python.org/3/howto/argparse.html#id1

Good luck! - DLD

From grant.b.edwards at gmail.com  Tue Jan 12 12:13:59 2021
From: grant.b.edwards at gmail.com (Grant Edwards)
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 2021 17:13:59 -0000 (UTC)
Subject: A beginning beginner's question about input, output and . . .
References: <i1apvfhooqevl9gkol3ic0itcbdoi0m6a4@4ax.com>
 <r6qvch-sme.ln1@anthive.com> <rtkejd$h8k$1@ciao.gmane.io>
 <CAPTjJmr3Hgo3QzWNtBe5EbQLgGMpv8aUMGbMLBf6t4fDYuyHKg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <rtklcn$cvp$1@ciao.gmane.io>

On 2021-01-12, Chris Angelico <rosuav at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Wed, Jan 13, 2021 at 3:18 AM Grant Edwards <grant.b.edwards at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> On 2021-01-12, songbird <songbird at anthive.com> wrote:
>>
>> >   it can be used for pretty much anything except perhaps
>> > high pressure real time things, but i bet someone else will
>> > know that is being done too, i've just not heard of it.  :)
>>
>> AFAIK, Python can't be used to write device drivers for any popular OS
>> (Linux, Unix, Windows, OSX). It also can't be used on small embedded
>> systems (real-time or not).
>
> Depends how small.

Of course.

> An RPi has a full Linux system and can easily run Python scripts;
> and the pyboard runs a dedicated Python interpreter called
> MicroPython, broadly compatible with CPython 3.5, I think (some 3.x
> version, anyhow), albeit with a cut-down standard library. The
> pyboard is pretty tiny; according to the micropython.org blurb, it
> has 192KB RAM.

Yes, that's tiny compared to the desktop machine I'm posting from, but
I work with ARM parts (that are in active production production and
not EOL) with 2KB of RAM and 8KB of flash.

--
Grant




From * at eli.users.panix.com  Tue Jan 12 13:33:35 2021
From: * at eli.users.panix.com (Eli the Bearded)
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 2021 18:33:35 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: Application window geometry specifier
References: <alpine.LNX.2.20.2101120831280.12379@salmo.appl-ecosys.com>
 <CA+FnnTwS8A2zQkSJiJVL3Toid+0Xg_bm90mTKArxC-qY1X62SA@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.LNX.2.20.2101120938140.12379@salmo.appl-ecosys.com>
 <mailman.721.1610473139.7193.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <eli$2101121317@qaz.wtf>

In comp.lang.python, Rich Shepard  <rshepard at appl-ecosys.com> wrote:
>> Keep in mind that if you target Linux, the "modern" window server
>> (Wayland) will not allow user code to decide the positioning and size of
> I suspect that Slackware will continue with X11.

Even with traditional X11, geometry is "preferred" size and position[*],
not a requirement. Window managers have always been able to override
that if desired, and tiling window managers make that override a
feature. There might not be a tiling window manager in Slack's standard
packages, but there sure are in Slackbuilds.

Elijah
------
[*] See GEOMETRY SPECIFICATIONS in "man X"

From grant.b.edwards at gmail.com  Tue Jan 12 13:43:39 2021
From: grant.b.edwards at gmail.com (Grant Edwards)
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 2021 18:43:39 -0000 (UTC)
Subject: Application window geometry specifier
References: <alpine.LNX.2.20.2101120831280.12379@salmo.appl-ecosys.com>
 <CAPTjJmpqG21j2rVTqUJg_-=_6RWg50rnUi_8KdDc3kSHpzO6Ng@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+FnnTwS8A2zQkSJiJVL3Toid+0Xg_bm90mTKArxC-qY1X62SA@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.LNX.2.20.2101120938140.12379@salmo.appl-ecosys.com>
Message-ID: <rtkqkr$l9j$1@ciao.gmane.io>

On 2021-01-12, Rich Shepard <rshepard at appl-ecosys.com> wrote:
> On Tue, 12 Jan 2021, Igor Korot wrote:
>
>> Keep in mind that if you target Linux, the "modern" window server
>> (Wayland) will not allow user code to decide the positioning and size of
>> the TLW.
>
> Igor,
>
> I suspect that Slackware will continue with X11.

And those X11 users will swear at you if you override their window
managers configured window placement. Application code should not care
about or try to control window geometry. Period.

--
Grant






From rosuav at gmail.com  Tue Jan 12 13:45:40 2021
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Wed, 13 Jan 2021 05:45:40 +1100
Subject: A beginning beginner's question about input, output and . . .
In-Reply-To: <i1apvfhooqevl9gkol3ic0itcbdoi0m6a4@4ax.com>
References: <i1apvfhooqevl9gkol3ic0itcbdoi0m6a4@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmo4sd5xhz+a8K930oRMJcRyRVSpcCt6-jwY31DjRiyZeA@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Jan 12, 2021 at 7:41 AM DonK <don81846 at comcast.net.removeme> wrote:
> So, what do you folks use Python for?
>

Since everyone else is, I'll add my list.

* API lookups of various sorts (usually via HTTP requests)
* Audio analysis. Calculate the maximum and average volume of each of
many songs.
* Code generation. The audio analysis output is in the form of a Lua
script (a VLC extension); also I have Python scripts that generate
SourcePawn code for CS:GO integration, and various other things.
* Decoding and analyzing myriad formats of files, including
Borderlands save files (now which character had that level 62
legendary weapon I wanted...)
* Mathematical analysis and testing. Python has excellent arithmetical
and higher mathematical tools.
* Automated tidying up of files to eliminate spurious diffs (eg with
OBS Studio's config files)
* Web apps involving PostgreSQL databases, various API calls, etc, etc
* Financial calculations - parse the downloaded transactions files
from my bank, correlate with my client list, automatically mark
invoices as paid
* Command-line calculator - pressing Ctrl-Alt-P will open up a
terminal with Python, and that's the normal way that I do quick
calculations
* And a ton of quick one-off scripts for a wide variety of jobs.

Python's one of my favourite languages, and I use it a lot :)

ChrisA

From rshepard at appl-ecosys.com  Tue Jan 12 13:46:23 2021
From: rshepard at appl-ecosys.com (Rich Shepard)
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 2021 10:46:23 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Application window geometry specifier
In-Reply-To: <CA+FnnTzvLsb6m9bb-+eH89-QrQJC+qDffrsZNOSk0kRYU2gJOA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <alpine.LNX.2.20.2101120831280.12379@salmo.appl-ecosys.com>
 <CAPTjJmpqG21j2rVTqUJg_-=_6RWg50rnUi_8KdDc3kSHpzO6Ng@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+FnnTwS8A2zQkSJiJVL3Toid+0Xg_bm90mTKArxC-qY1X62SA@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.LNX.2.20.2101120938140.12379@salmo.appl-ecosys.com>
 <CA+FnnTzvLsb6m9bb-+eH89-QrQJC+qDffrsZNOSk0kRYU2gJOA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.LNX.2.20.2101121044100.12379@salmo.appl-ecosys.com>

On Tue, 12 Jan 2021, Igor Korot wrote:

> Maybe. :-)
> But it looks Wayland becomes more and more popular.

Igor,

What I've read from those struggling to use Wayland, it may turn out to be a
popular as systemd. :-)

It's important to remember that while all progress involves change, not all
change involves progress.

Regards,

Rich

From rshepard at appl-ecosys.com  Tue Jan 12 13:59:34 2021
From: rshepard at appl-ecosys.com (Rich Shepard)
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 2021 10:59:34 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Binding menu accelerator to a callback
Message-ID: <alpine.LNX.2.20.2101121049210.12379@salmo.appl-ecosys.com>

Menu options work from the menu, but not from the accelerator associated
with that menu item. My research suggests that while 'command' works for the
menu item, 'bind' is required for the associated accelerator. For example,
File -> Quit is defined this way:

 	self.file_menu.add_command(
             label="Quit",
             command=self.fileQuit,
             underline=0,
             accelerator='Ctrl+Q'
         )
and works when I pull down the File menu and click on 'Quit.'

I want to modify the menu items so the accelerator is bound to the same
self.fileQuit() (in this case). My web research hasn't found a solution
since examples for using bind() aren't in menus.

Do I need another method that associates accelerators with the callbacks?

Rich

From rshepard at appl-ecosys.com  Tue Jan 12 14:01:44 2021
From: rshepard at appl-ecosys.com (Rich Shepard)
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 2021 11:01:44 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Application window geometry specifier
In-Reply-To: <rtkqkr$l9j$1@ciao.gmane.io>
References: <alpine.LNX.2.20.2101120831280.12379@salmo.appl-ecosys.com>
 <CAPTjJmpqG21j2rVTqUJg_-=_6RWg50rnUi_8KdDc3kSHpzO6Ng@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+FnnTwS8A2zQkSJiJVL3Toid+0Xg_bm90mTKArxC-qY1X62SA@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.LNX.2.20.2101120938140.12379@salmo.appl-ecosys.com>
 <rtkqkr$l9j$1@ciao.gmane.io>
Message-ID: <alpine.LNX.2.20.2101121059470.12379@salmo.appl-ecosys.com>

On Tue, 12 Jan 2021, Grant Edwards wrote:

> And those X11 users will swear at you if you override their window
> managers configured window placement. Application code should not care
> about or try to control window geometry. Period.

Grant,

Since this application is my own business use those users can swear all they
want. :-) If I decide to post all the code on github other can modify it to
their heart's delight. They can even make it work on their wrist computer
(formerly known as a wrist watch.)

Regards,

Rich

From ikorot01 at gmail.com  Tue Jan 12 14:16:45 2021
From: ikorot01 at gmail.com (Igor Korot)
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 2021 13:16:45 -0600
Subject: Application window geometry specifier
In-Reply-To: <rtkqkr$l9j$1@ciao.gmane.io>
References: <alpine.LNX.2.20.2101120831280.12379@salmo.appl-ecosys.com>
 <CAPTjJmpqG21j2rVTqUJg_-=_6RWg50rnUi_8KdDc3kSHpzO6Ng@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+FnnTwS8A2zQkSJiJVL3Toid+0Xg_bm90mTKArxC-qY1X62SA@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.LNX.2.20.2101120938140.12379@salmo.appl-ecosys.com>
 <rtkqkr$l9j$1@ciao.gmane.io>
Message-ID: <CA+FnnTz2=E=aiFaQNucmuL=d5Y9LE12Atz=BP6oQo0iH47kvqQ@mail.gmail.com>

Hi, Grant,

On Tue, Jan 12, 2021 at 12:47 PM Grant Edwards
<grant.b.edwards at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> On 2021-01-12, Rich Shepard <rshepard at appl-ecosys.com> wrote:
> > On Tue, 12 Jan 2021, Igor Korot wrote:
> >
> >> Keep in mind that if you target Linux, the "modern" window server
> >> (Wayland) will not allow user code to decide the positioning and size of
> >> the TLW.
> >
> > Igor,
> >
> > I suspect that Slackware will continue with X11.
>
> And those X11 users will swear at you if you override their window
> managers configured window placement. Application code should not care
> about or try to control window geometry. Period.

I have a very strong argument against it!!

Imagine you are developing an application that need to communicate
with the database.
Also imagine this application will be used by millions of users inside
different companies.

SInce the application will require DB access you will need a dialog to
ask for credentials.

I, personally, would be very surprised if such dialog would appear
somewhere at the bottom of the screen,
as dialogs ARE TLWs (top level windows).

Wouldn't you?

So why I somewhat agree with such a notion - it is not always a useful feature.
Also, such an algorithm better allow me to save and restore the
geometry of the TLW.

Thank you.

>
> --
> Grant
>
>
>
>
>
> --
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

From ikorot01 at gmail.com  Tue Jan 12 14:18:34 2021
From: ikorot01 at gmail.com (Igor Korot)
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 2021 13:18:34 -0600
Subject: Application window geometry specifier
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LNX.2.20.2101121044100.12379@salmo.appl-ecosys.com>
References: <alpine.LNX.2.20.2101120831280.12379@salmo.appl-ecosys.com>
 <CAPTjJmpqG21j2rVTqUJg_-=_6RWg50rnUi_8KdDc3kSHpzO6Ng@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+FnnTwS8A2zQkSJiJVL3Toid+0Xg_bm90mTKArxC-qY1X62SA@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.LNX.2.20.2101120938140.12379@salmo.appl-ecosys.com>
 <CA+FnnTzvLsb6m9bb-+eH89-QrQJC+qDffrsZNOSk0kRYU2gJOA@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.LNX.2.20.2101121044100.12379@salmo.appl-ecosys.com>
Message-ID: <CA+FnnTxFLZrLnJGupc8qACg0jo=KKRX_PGPRMXYedV7Da-7m8A@mail.gmail.com>

Hi, Rich,

On Tue, Jan 12, 2021 at 12:52 PM Rich Shepard <rshepard at appl-ecosys.com> wrote:
>
> On Tue, 12 Jan 2021, Igor Korot wrote:
>
> > Maybe. :-)
> > But it looks Wayland becomes more and more popular.
>
> Igor,
>
> What I've read from those struggling to use Wayland, it may turn out to be a
> popular as systemd. :-)
>
> It's important to remember that while all progress involves change, not all
> change involves progress.

200% agree.

See my reply to Grant.

Thank you.

>
> Regards,
>
> Rich
> --
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

From rosuav at gmail.com  Tue Jan 12 14:30:38 2021
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Wed, 13 Jan 2021 06:30:38 +1100
Subject: Application window geometry specifier
In-Reply-To: <CA+FnnTz2=E=aiFaQNucmuL=d5Y9LE12Atz=BP6oQo0iH47kvqQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <alpine.LNX.2.20.2101120831280.12379@salmo.appl-ecosys.com>
 <CAPTjJmpqG21j2rVTqUJg_-=_6RWg50rnUi_8KdDc3kSHpzO6Ng@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+FnnTwS8A2zQkSJiJVL3Toid+0Xg_bm90mTKArxC-qY1X62SA@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.LNX.2.20.2101120938140.12379@salmo.appl-ecosys.com>
 <rtkqkr$l9j$1@ciao.gmane.io>
 <CA+FnnTz2=E=aiFaQNucmuL=d5Y9LE12Atz=BP6oQo0iH47kvqQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmoQH4jFKfoBHSGFdY-DrLWPo_H-fAhSBOSMvs2KhUEW=A@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Jan 13, 2021 at 6:18 AM Igor Korot <ikorot01 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Hi, Grant,
>
> On Tue, Jan 12, 2021 at 12:47 PM Grant Edwards
> <grant.b.edwards at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > On 2021-01-12, Rich Shepard <rshepard at appl-ecosys.com> wrote:
> > > On Tue, 12 Jan 2021, Igor Korot wrote:
> > >
> > >> Keep in mind that if you target Linux, the "modern" window server
> > >> (Wayland) will not allow user code to decide the positioning and size of
> > >> the TLW.
> > >
> > > Igor,
> > >
> > > I suspect that Slackware will continue with X11.
> >
> > And those X11 users will swear at you if you override their window
> > managers configured window placement. Application code should not care
> > about or try to control window geometry. Period.
>
> I have a very strong argument against it!!
>
> Imagine you are developing an application that need to communicate
> with the database.
> Also imagine this application will be used by millions of users inside
> different companies.
>
> SInce the application will require DB access you will need a dialog to
> ask for credentials.
>
> I, personally, would be very surprised if such dialog would appear
> somewhere at the bottom of the screen,
> as dialogs ARE TLWs (top level windows).
>
> Wouldn't you?

Yes, I would too - because I have my window manager configured to
place that dialog where *I* want it, not where the application
developer chose to put it.

> So why I somewhat agree with such a notion - it is not always a useful feature.
> Also, such an algorithm better allow me to save and restore the
> geometry of the TLW.

Why save and restore the geometry when the window manager can do a
better job of positioning it? Give the WM the hints it needs, then let
it figure out the placement.

Consider that the last time your window was opened, I might have had
one 1366x768 monitor, but now I have four - 1920x1080, 1920x1080,
1280x1024, and 1600x900. Where should your dialog go? Not your
problem, because my WM knows and understands.

(That's actually a 100% realistic scenario, given that I'm usually on
my desktop system, but occasionally I'll be on my laptop, SSH'd in
with X11 forwarding.)

ChrisA

From ikorot01 at gmail.com  Tue Jan 12 15:00:02 2021
From: ikorot01 at gmail.com (Igor Korot)
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 2021 14:00:02 -0600
Subject: Application window geometry specifier
In-Reply-To: <CAPTjJmoQH4jFKfoBHSGFdY-DrLWPo_H-fAhSBOSMvs2KhUEW=A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <alpine.LNX.2.20.2101120831280.12379@salmo.appl-ecosys.com>
 <CAPTjJmpqG21j2rVTqUJg_-=_6RWg50rnUi_8KdDc3kSHpzO6Ng@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+FnnTwS8A2zQkSJiJVL3Toid+0Xg_bm90mTKArxC-qY1X62SA@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.LNX.2.20.2101120938140.12379@salmo.appl-ecosys.com>
 <rtkqkr$l9j$1@ciao.gmane.io>
 <CA+FnnTz2=E=aiFaQNucmuL=d5Y9LE12Atz=BP6oQo0iH47kvqQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPTjJmoQH4jFKfoBHSGFdY-DrLWPo_H-fAhSBOSMvs2KhUEW=A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CA+FnnTyCULGvpwwYcFVYY5fkmbrHmR_VXX9nPpr6+JYT-awMAA@mail.gmail.com>

Hi, Chris,

On Tue, Jan 12, 2021 at 1:33 PM Chris Angelico <rosuav at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> On Wed, Jan 13, 2021 at 6:18 AM Igor Korot <ikorot01 at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > Hi, Grant,
> >
> > On Tue, Jan 12, 2021 at 12:47 PM Grant Edwards
> > <grant.b.edwards at gmail.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > On 2021-01-12, Rich Shepard <rshepard at appl-ecosys.com> wrote:
> > > > On Tue, 12 Jan 2021, Igor Korot wrote:
> > > >
> > > >> Keep in mind that if you target Linux, the "modern" window server
> > > >> (Wayland) will not allow user code to decide the positioning and size of
> > > >> the TLW.
> > > >
> > > > Igor,
> > > >
> > > > I suspect that Slackware will continue with X11.
> > >
> > > And those X11 users will swear at you if you override their window
> > > managers configured window placement. Application code should not care
> > > about or try to control window geometry. Period.
> >
> > I have a very strong argument against it!!
> >
> > Imagine you are developing an application that need to communicate
> > with the database.
> > Also imagine this application will be used by millions of users inside
> > different companies.
> >
> > SInce the application will require DB access you will need a dialog to
> > ask for credentials.
> >
> > I, personally, would be very surprised if such dialog would appear
> > somewhere at the bottom of the screen,
> > as dialogs ARE TLWs (top level windows).
> >
> > Wouldn't you?
>
> Yes, I would too - because I have my window manager configured to
> place that dialog where *I* want it, not where the application
> developer chose to put it.

So, how do *you* distinguish between such dialog and all other dialogs
an application might raise (open/save dialogs. font selection dialog, user
warning thing).

Because with my scenario there are 2 TLWs in the picture - main frame and
dialog for credentials.

Besides it looks like you are setting this dialog to appear at constant position
anyway. Or am I missing smth?

>
> > So why I somewhat agree with such a notion - it is not always a useful feature.
> > Also, such an algorithm better allow me to save and restore the
> > geometry of the TLW.
>
> Why save and restore the geometry when the window manager can do a
> better job of positioning it? Give the WM the hints it needs, then let
> it figure out the placement.

Because I want this application to appear at the same place every time?
The first time it shows I may just drag it away or minimize it at some point or
make it very small to clear the space.

And the next time I want it to start at the same position.

>
> Consider that the last time your window was opened, I might have had
> one 1366x768 monitor, but now I have four - 1920x1080, 1920x1080,
> 1280x1024, and 1600x900. Where should your dialog go? Not your
> problem, because my WM knows and understands.

There is a notion of the "primary display" which is here for a reason. ;-)
So you can attach/detach as many monitors as you want - in the end if
the monitor is not available and that window will appear on the primary monitor.

>
> (That's actually a 100% realistic scenario, given that I'm usually on
> my desktop system, but occasionally I'll be on my laptop, SSH'd in
> with X11 forwarding.)

Absolutely.
I found myself in this situation recently - when I'm in the office I
have 2 external
monitors, and when I am at home - I only have a laptop.
And windows are showing on the primary all the time.

Thank you.

>
> ChrisA
> --
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

From cs at cskk.id.au  Tue Jan 12 16:46:57 2021
From: cs at cskk.id.au (Cameron Simpson)
Date: Wed, 13 Jan 2021 08:46:57 +1100
Subject: A beginning beginner's question about input, output and . . .
In-Reply-To: <rtkejd$h8k$1@ciao.gmane.io>
References: <rtkejd$h8k$1@ciao.gmane.io>
Message-ID: <X/4Y0WkPsx9Vsdf4@cskk.homeip.net>

On 12Jan2021 15:18, Grant Edwards <grant.b.edwards at gmail.com> wrote:
>On 2021-01-12, songbird <songbird at anthive.com> wrote:
>>   it can be used for pretty much anything except perhaps
>> high pressure real time things, but i bet someone else will
>> know that is being done too, i've just not heard of it.  :)
>
>AFAIK, Python can't be used to write device drivers for any popular OS
>(Linux, Unix, Windows, OSX). It also can't be used on small embedded
>systems (real-time or not).

Well, yes and no. Not a pure device driver. But there are systems like 
FUSE for hooking kernel level filesystem stuff to an external system 
programme.  I've used the Python llfuse library to implement a 
filesystem in Python.

Cheers,
Cameron Simpson <cs at cskk.id.au>

From cs at cskk.id.au  Tue Jan 12 16:53:02 2021
From: cs at cskk.id.au (Cameron Simpson)
Date: Wed, 13 Jan 2021 08:53:02 +1100
Subject: A beginning beginner's question about input, output and . . .
In-Reply-To: <rtkjdo$pa1$1@dont-email.me>
References: <rtkjdo$pa1$1@dont-email.me>
Message-ID: <X/4aPukFduo/okXY@cskk.homeip.net>

On 12Jan2021 10:40, Michael F. Stemper <mstemper at gmail.com> wrote:
>On 11/01/2021 14.37, DonK wrote:
>>I've installed Python 3.7, the PyCharm IDE and watched some Youtube
>>tutorials
>
>I would suggest that instead of watching tutorials, you open up your IDE
>and start writing stuff.

I would second that. Maybe this is a congnitive shortcoming on my part, 
but I find videos not useful for learning new programming. What they are 
great for is seeing explicit examples of something you are doing, 
particular if you hit some block and need to see someone _do_ what 
you're failing to do.

They're great for physical repair though, which again is an explicit 
example of a particular fixed task. Repaired our stand mixer with 
reference to a good video. Would not want to use a video to learn the 
theory of stand mixer design.

Cheers,
Cameron Simpson <cs at cskk.id.au>

From rosuav at gmail.com  Tue Jan 12 17:02:18 2021
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Wed, 13 Jan 2021 09:02:18 +1100
Subject: Application window geometry specifier
In-Reply-To: <CA+FnnTyCULGvpwwYcFVYY5fkmbrHmR_VXX9nPpr6+JYT-awMAA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <alpine.LNX.2.20.2101120831280.12379@salmo.appl-ecosys.com>
 <CAPTjJmpqG21j2rVTqUJg_-=_6RWg50rnUi_8KdDc3kSHpzO6Ng@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+FnnTwS8A2zQkSJiJVL3Toid+0Xg_bm90mTKArxC-qY1X62SA@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.LNX.2.20.2101120938140.12379@salmo.appl-ecosys.com>
 <rtkqkr$l9j$1@ciao.gmane.io>
 <CA+FnnTz2=E=aiFaQNucmuL=d5Y9LE12Atz=BP6oQo0iH47kvqQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPTjJmoQH4jFKfoBHSGFdY-DrLWPo_H-fAhSBOSMvs2KhUEW=A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+FnnTyCULGvpwwYcFVYY5fkmbrHmR_VXX9nPpr6+JYT-awMAA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmqpikubYzKQ681WzqQgX7dBBg=+L4_816CteStU8zXdiA@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Jan 13, 2021 at 7:00 AM Igor Korot <ikorot01 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Hi, Chris,
>
> On Tue, Jan 12, 2021 at 1:33 PM Chris Angelico <rosuav at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > On Wed, Jan 13, 2021 at 6:18 AM Igor Korot <ikorot01 at gmail.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > Hi, Grant,
> > >
> > > On Tue, Jan 12, 2021 at 12:47 PM Grant Edwards
> > > <grant.b.edwards at gmail.com> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > On 2021-01-12, Rich Shepard <rshepard at appl-ecosys.com> wrote:
> > > > > On Tue, 12 Jan 2021, Igor Korot wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > >> Keep in mind that if you target Linux, the "modern" window server
> > > > >> (Wayland) will not allow user code to decide the positioning and size of
> > > > >> the TLW.
> > > > >
> > > > > Igor,
> > > > >
> > > > > I suspect that Slackware will continue with X11.
> > > >
> > > > And those X11 users will swear at you if you override their window
> > > > managers configured window placement. Application code should not care
> > > > about or try to control window geometry. Period.
> > >
> > > I have a very strong argument against it!!
> > >
> > > Imagine you are developing an application that need to communicate
> > > with the database.
> > > Also imagine this application will be used by millions of users inside
> > > different companies.
> > >
> > > SInce the application will require DB access you will need a dialog to
> > > ask for credentials.
> > >
> > > I, personally, would be very surprised if such dialog would appear
> > > somewhere at the bottom of the screen,
> > > as dialogs ARE TLWs (top level windows).
> > >
> > > Wouldn't you?
> >
> > Yes, I would too - because I have my window manager configured to
> > place that dialog where *I* want it, not where the application
> > developer chose to put it.
>
> So, how do *you* distinguish between such dialog and all other dialogs
> an application might raise (open/save dialogs. font selection dialog, user
> warning thing).
>
> Because with my scenario there are 2 TLWs in the picture - main frame and
> dialog for credentials.
>
> Besides it looks like you are setting this dialog to appear at constant position
> anyway. Or am I missing smth?

Hmm, maybe I'm missing something. The initial window isn't a "dialog",
it's an application window. They follow slightly different rules
(mainly, they don't have a parent window), but they still follow
*rules*.

> > > So why I somewhat agree with such a notion - it is not always a useful feature.
> > > Also, such an algorithm better allow me to save and restore the
> > > geometry of the TLW.
> >
> > Why save and restore the geometry when the window manager can do a
> > better job of positioning it? Give the WM the hints it needs, then let
> > it figure out the placement.
>
> Because I want this application to appear at the same place every time?
> The first time it shows I may just drag it away or minimize it at some point or
> make it very small to clear the space.
>
> And the next time I want it to start at the same position.

And I find that most apps that behave this way end up being more
annoying than not.

> > Consider that the last time your window was opened, I might have had
> > one 1366x768 monitor, but now I have four - 1920x1080, 1920x1080,
> > 1280x1024, and 1600x900. Where should your dialog go? Not your
> > problem, because my WM knows and understands.
>
> There is a notion of the "primary display" which is here for a reason. ;-)
> So you can attach/detach as many monitors as you want - in the end if
> the monitor is not available and that window will appear on the primary monitor.

In the second scenario, the primary monitor is at position (1920, 0).
So you've just described exactly what a window manager does - follow
rules to decide where the window appears - and NOT what happens if you
remember geometry, which would be to put the window somewhere in the
top left. You see the problem with remembering geometry?

> > (That's actually a 100% realistic scenario, given that I'm usually on
> > my desktop system, but occasionally I'll be on my laptop, SSH'd in
> > with X11 forwarding.)
>
> Absolutely.
> I found myself in this situation recently - when I'm in the office I
> have 2 external
> monitors, and when I am at home - I only have a laptop.
> And windows are showing on the primary all the time.
>

Right! That's the WM's job. Let it do its job, and everyone's lives
will be easier.

ChrisA

From grant.b.edwards at gmail.com  Tue Jan 12 14:28:26 2021
From: grant.b.edwards at gmail.com (Grant Edwards)
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 2021 19:28:26 -0000 (UTC)
Subject: A beginning beginner's question about input, output and . . .
References: <i1apvfhooqevl9gkol3ic0itcbdoi0m6a4@4ax.com>
 <CAPTjJmo4sd5xhz+a8K930oRMJcRyRVSpcCt6-jwY31DjRiyZeA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <rtkt8p$n3r$1@ciao.gmane.io>

On 2021-01-12, Chris Angelico <rosuav at gmail.com> wrote:

> * Command-line calculator - pressing Ctrl-Alt-P will open up a
>   terminal with Python, and that's the normal way that I do quick
>   calculations

I do that a lot too.

--
Grant






From ikorot01 at gmail.com  Tue Jan 12 17:29:50 2021
From: ikorot01 at gmail.com (Igor Korot)
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 2021 16:29:50 -0600
Subject: Application window geometry specifier
In-Reply-To: <CAPTjJmqpikubYzKQ681WzqQgX7dBBg=+L4_816CteStU8zXdiA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <alpine.LNX.2.20.2101120831280.12379@salmo.appl-ecosys.com>
 <CAPTjJmpqG21j2rVTqUJg_-=_6RWg50rnUi_8KdDc3kSHpzO6Ng@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+FnnTwS8A2zQkSJiJVL3Toid+0Xg_bm90mTKArxC-qY1X62SA@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.LNX.2.20.2101120938140.12379@salmo.appl-ecosys.com>
 <rtkqkr$l9j$1@ciao.gmane.io>
 <CA+FnnTz2=E=aiFaQNucmuL=d5Y9LE12Atz=BP6oQo0iH47kvqQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPTjJmoQH4jFKfoBHSGFdY-DrLWPo_H-fAhSBOSMvs2KhUEW=A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+FnnTyCULGvpwwYcFVYY5fkmbrHmR_VXX9nPpr6+JYT-awMAA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPTjJmqpikubYzKQ681WzqQgX7dBBg=+L4_816CteStU8zXdiA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CA+FnnTz9iXt=mc+GNV0TU2KDtbcy8ap1QqpjimFqJGML_-W+0g@mail.gmail.com>

Hi, Chris,

On Tue, Jan 12, 2021 at 4:05 PM Chris Angelico <rosuav at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> On Wed, Jan 13, 2021 at 7:00 AM Igor Korot <ikorot01 at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > Hi, Chris,
> >
> > On Tue, Jan 12, 2021 at 1:33 PM Chris Angelico <rosuav at gmail.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > On Wed, Jan 13, 2021 at 6:18 AM Igor Korot <ikorot01 at gmail.com> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Hi, Grant,
> > > >
> > > > On Tue, Jan 12, 2021 at 12:47 PM Grant Edwards
> > > > <grant.b.edwards at gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > On 2021-01-12, Rich Shepard <rshepard at appl-ecosys.com> wrote:
> > > > > > On Tue, 12 Jan 2021, Igor Korot wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > >> Keep in mind that if you target Linux, the "modern" window server
> > > > > >> (Wayland) will not allow user code to decide the positioning and size of
> > > > > >> the TLW.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Igor,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I suspect that Slackware will continue with X11.
> > > > >
> > > > > And those X11 users will swear at you if you override their window
> > > > > managers configured window placement. Application code should not care
> > > > > about or try to control window geometry. Period.
> > > >
> > > > I have a very strong argument against it!!
> > > >
> > > > Imagine you are developing an application that need to communicate
> > > > with the database.
> > > > Also imagine this application will be used by millions of users inside
> > > > different companies.
> > > >
> > > > SInce the application will require DB access you will need a dialog to
> > > > ask for credentials.
> > > >
> > > > I, personally, would be very surprised if such dialog would appear
> > > > somewhere at the bottom of the screen,
> > > > as dialogs ARE TLWs (top level windows).
> > > >
> > > > Wouldn't you?
> > >
> > > Yes, I would too - because I have my window manager configured to
> > > place that dialog where *I* want it, not where the application
> > > developer chose to put it.
> >
> > So, how do *you* distinguish between such dialog and all other dialogs
> > an application might raise (open/save dialogs. font selection dialog, user
> > warning thing).
> >
> > Because with my scenario there are 2 TLWs in the picture - main frame and
> > dialog for credentials.
> >
> > Besides it looks like you are setting this dialog to appear at constant position
> > anyway. Or am I missing smth?
>
> Hmm, maybe I'm missing something. The initial window isn't a "dialog",
> it's an application window. They follow slightly different rules
> (mainly, they don't have a parent window), but they still follow
> *rules*.

Not sure I follow - frame is a TLW. Dialog is a TLW.
Program flow is as follows:

1. Program starts with a frame
2. At some point the user asks to connect to the database.
3. Credentials dialog is shown.

Now, while frame is TLW and may follow the renderer rules, the dialog
that vask the user for credentials should not.

Now, system dialog should probably follow the rules of the WM, but if I want my
dialog to appear centered on the parent (not on the screen) - what
right the WM have
to override it?

I also think that ALL dialogs are TLWs independently of whether they
are created with
the actual parent (frame) or a null-parent (desktop).
In regards that they are not buttons/list controls/toolbars/etc.

>
> > > > So why I somewhat agree with such a notion - it is not always a useful feature.
> > > > Also, such an algorithm better allow me to save and restore the
> > > > geometry of the TLW.
> > >
> > > Why save and restore the geometry when the window manager can do a
> > > better job of positioning it? Give the WM the hints it needs, then let
> > > it figure out the placement.
> >
> > Because I want this application to appear at the same place every time?
> > The first time it shows I may just drag it away or minimize it at some point or
> > make it very small to clear the space.
> >
> > And the next time I want it to start at the same position.
>
> And I find that most apps that behave this way end up being more
> annoying than not.

Well its just a matter of opinion than. ;-)

>
> > > Consider that the last time your window was opened, I might have had
> > > one 1366x768 monitor, but now I have four - 1920x1080, 1920x1080,
> > > 1280x1024, and 1600x900. Where should your dialog go? Not your
> > > problem, because my WM knows and understands.
> >
> > There is a notion of the "primary display" which is here for a reason. ;-)
> > So you can attach/detach as many monitors as you want - in the end if
> > the monitor is not available and that window will appear on the primary monitor.
>
> In the second scenario, the primary monitor is at position (1920, 0).
> So you've just described exactly what a window manager does - follow
> rules to decide where the window appears - and NOT what happens if you
> remember geometry, which would be to put the window somewhere in the
> top left. You see the problem with remembering geometry?

Are you talking about geometry or a position?
For me geometry is a complex thing - position, size of the window and
the client size
of the window (which is important especially in *nix).

>
> > > (That's actually a 100% realistic scenario, given that I'm usually on
> > > my desktop system, but occasionally I'll be on my laptop, SSH'd in
> > > with X11 forwarding.)
> >
> > Absolutely.
> > I found myself in this situation recently - when I'm in the office I
> > have 2 external
> > monitors, and when I am at home - I only have a laptop.
> > And windows are showing on the primary all the time.
> >
>
> Right! That's the WM's job. Let it do its job, and everyone's lives
> will be easier.

Well, please re-read my initial statement.
You can't decide where to put that credential dialog. It has to appear
in the middle
of the screen (if there is 1 - on it, if multiple - on the screen
where the main frame is).

DO you see the problem with that?

Thank you.

>
> ChrisA
> --
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

From rosuav at gmail.com  Tue Jan 12 17:35:32 2021
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Wed, 13 Jan 2021 09:35:32 +1100
Subject: Application window geometry specifier
In-Reply-To: <CA+FnnTz9iXt=mc+GNV0TU2KDtbcy8ap1QqpjimFqJGML_-W+0g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <alpine.LNX.2.20.2101120831280.12379@salmo.appl-ecosys.com>
 <CAPTjJmpqG21j2rVTqUJg_-=_6RWg50rnUi_8KdDc3kSHpzO6Ng@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+FnnTwS8A2zQkSJiJVL3Toid+0Xg_bm90mTKArxC-qY1X62SA@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.LNX.2.20.2101120938140.12379@salmo.appl-ecosys.com>
 <rtkqkr$l9j$1@ciao.gmane.io>
 <CA+FnnTz2=E=aiFaQNucmuL=d5Y9LE12Atz=BP6oQo0iH47kvqQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPTjJmoQH4jFKfoBHSGFdY-DrLWPo_H-fAhSBOSMvs2KhUEW=A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+FnnTyCULGvpwwYcFVYY5fkmbrHmR_VXX9nPpr6+JYT-awMAA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPTjJmqpikubYzKQ681WzqQgX7dBBg=+L4_816CteStU8zXdiA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+FnnTz9iXt=mc+GNV0TU2KDtbcy8ap1QqpjimFqJGML_-W+0g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmoMz4oonV1y1fdyd-Ts3M7J1SiAd=vhd6WpSkFin+cVCQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Jan 13, 2021 at 9:30 AM Igor Korot <ikorot01 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Not sure I follow - frame is a TLW. Dialog is a TLW.
> Program flow is as follows:
>
> 1. Program starts with a frame
> 2. At some point the user asks to connect to the database.
> 3. Credentials dialog is shown.
>
> Now, while frame is TLW and may follow the renderer rules, the dialog
> that vask the user for credentials should not.
>
> Now, system dialog should probably follow the rules of the WM, but if I want my
> dialog to appear centered on the parent (not on the screen) - what
> right the WM have
> to override it?
>
> I also think that ALL dialogs are TLWs independently of whether they
> are created with
> the actual parent (frame) or a null-parent (desktop).
> In regards that they are not buttons/list controls/toolbars/etc.

In one sense you're right, but in another, the creation of a window
with a parent is very different from the creation of a window without
a parent. The WM will handle them differently because the user will
expect them to behave differently. In fact, centering on the parent is
a very likely position, so don't worry about it - just declare your
parent correctly.

> Are you talking about geometry or a position?
> For me geometry is a complex thing - position, size of the window and
> the client size
> of the window (which is important especially in *nix).

The size of the window is generally governed by its contents, so
that's under the application's control (within limits set by the WM).
The position, though, is up to the WM.

> > > > (That's actually a 100% realistic scenario, given that I'm usually on
> > > > my desktop system, but occasionally I'll be on my laptop, SSH'd in
> > > > with X11 forwarding.)
> > >
> > > Absolutely.
> > > I found myself in this situation recently - when I'm in the office I
> > > have 2 external
> > > monitors, and when I am at home - I only have a laptop.
> > > And windows are showing on the primary all the time.
> > >
> >
> > Right! That's the WM's job. Let it do its job, and everyone's lives
> > will be easier.
>
> Well, please re-read my initial statement.
> You can't decide where to put that credential dialog. It has to appear
> in the middle
> of the screen (if there is 1 - on it, if multiple - on the screen
> where the main frame is).
>
> DO you see the problem with that?

Yes, I see a problem with the application trying to remember where the
dialog was last time. A MAJOR problem. Restoring the dialog's geometry
might have it completely off screen, or at best, in a position that is
decidedly unideal. But if you let the WM decide where the dialog
should be placed, it's guaranteed to be where the user expects it (or
more precisely, it's guaranteed to be consistent with every *other*
application that also behaves like this, and the user has the power to
configure this).

ChrisA

From ikorot01 at gmail.com  Tue Jan 12 18:02:01 2021
From: ikorot01 at gmail.com (Igor Korot)
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 2021 17:02:01 -0600
Subject: Application window geometry specifier
In-Reply-To: <CAPTjJmoMz4oonV1y1fdyd-Ts3M7J1SiAd=vhd6WpSkFin+cVCQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <alpine.LNX.2.20.2101120831280.12379@salmo.appl-ecosys.com>
 <CAPTjJmpqG21j2rVTqUJg_-=_6RWg50rnUi_8KdDc3kSHpzO6Ng@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+FnnTwS8A2zQkSJiJVL3Toid+0Xg_bm90mTKArxC-qY1X62SA@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.LNX.2.20.2101120938140.12379@salmo.appl-ecosys.com>
 <rtkqkr$l9j$1@ciao.gmane.io>
 <CA+FnnTz2=E=aiFaQNucmuL=d5Y9LE12Atz=BP6oQo0iH47kvqQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPTjJmoQH4jFKfoBHSGFdY-DrLWPo_H-fAhSBOSMvs2KhUEW=A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+FnnTyCULGvpwwYcFVYY5fkmbrHmR_VXX9nPpr6+JYT-awMAA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPTjJmqpikubYzKQ681WzqQgX7dBBg=+L4_816CteStU8zXdiA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+FnnTz9iXt=mc+GNV0TU2KDtbcy8ap1QqpjimFqJGML_-W+0g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPTjJmoMz4oonV1y1fdyd-Ts3M7J1SiAd=vhd6WpSkFin+cVCQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CA+FnnTz4+9ptq7roS42dt1drmDZ=H0vzYw7=hy9NHNShfVDf_w@mail.gmail.com>

Chris,

On Tue, Jan 12, 2021 at 4:38 PM Chris Angelico <rosuav at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> On Wed, Jan 13, 2021 at 9:30 AM Igor Korot <ikorot01 at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > Not sure I follow - frame is a TLW. Dialog is a TLW.
> > Program flow is as follows:
> >
> > 1. Program starts with a frame
> > 2. At some point the user asks to connect to the database.
> > 3. Credentials dialog is shown.
> >
> > Now, while frame is TLW and may follow the renderer rules, the dialog
> > that vask the user for credentials should not.
> >
> > Now, system dialog should probably follow the rules of the WM, but if I want my
> > dialog to appear centered on the parent (not on the screen) - what
> > right the WM have
> > to override it?
> >
> > I also think that ALL dialogs are TLWs independently of whether they
> > are created with
> > the actual parent (frame) or a null-parent (desktop).
> > In regards that they are not buttons/list controls/toolbars/etc.
>
> In one sense you're right, but in another, the creation of a window
> with a parent is very different from the creation of a window without
> a parent. The WM will handle them differently because the user will
> expect them to behave differently. In fact, centering on the parent is
> a very likely position, so don't worry about it - just declare your
> parent correctly.

For the dialog (as well as any other TLW), it should be no difference.
Because if I pass a "parent" as NULL, it means I have a parent as a
"Desktop" window.

That's why frames and dialogs are called TLWs - they don't have to
have an "explicit" parent.

>
> > Are you talking about geometry or a position?
> > For me geometry is a complex thing - position, size of the window and
> > the client size
> > of the window (which is important especially in *nix).
>
> The size of the window is generally governed by its contents, so
> that's under the application's control (within limits set by the WM).
> The position, though, is up to the WM.

And what about client size?
Because if we are talking about *nix (which I think we are) you should
count decorations.

>
> > > > > (That's actually a 100% realistic scenario, given that I'm usually on
> > > > > my desktop system, but occasionally I'll be on my laptop, SSH'd in
> > > > > with X11 forwarding.)
> > > >
> > > > Absolutely.
> > > > I found myself in this situation recently - when I'm in the office I
> > > > have 2 external
> > > > monitors, and when I am at home - I only have a laptop.
> > > > And windows are showing on the primary all the time.
> > > >
> > >
> > > Right! That's the WM's job. Let it do its job, and everyone's lives
> > > will be easier.
> >
> > Well, please re-read my initial statement.
> > You can't decide where to put that credential dialog. It has to appear
> > in the middle
> > of the screen (if there is 1 - on it, if multiple - on the screen
> > where the main frame is).
> >
> > DO you see the problem with that?
>
> Yes, I see a problem with the application trying to remember where the
> dialog was last time. A MAJOR problem. Restoring the dialog's geometry
> might have it completely off screen, or at best, in a position that is
> decidedly unideal. But if you let the WM decide where the dialog
> should be placed, it's guaranteed to be where the user expects it (or
> more precisely, it's guaranteed to be consistent with every *other*
> application that also behaves like this, and the user has the power to
> configure this).

In this particular case there is no need to remember - credentials
dialog need to appear
at the center of the monitor 0 and they should be sized accordingly.

Now here are the scenarios I'm looking at:

1. Program starts - credentials dialog is shown. The parent of this
dialog is "Desktop" window.
It is better to be displayed in the center of the "Monitor 0".
2. Program start - frame is shown. I agree that it is best to let the
WM decide its position.
At some point of time I need to connect to the DB and so credential
dialog is shown.
In this scenario this dialog should also be shown "Monitor 0" centered.
3. Start with scenario 2. Resize the frame and exit the application.
Attach the new monitor.
Start the application again. Frame will probably appear on "Monitor 0"
(depending on the WM rules).
Start the DB connection. The credentials dialog should appear centered
on the screen where the frame is.

As you can see none of those scenarios include system dialogs
(open/save, font selection, etc).
They has to follow system/WM rules and appear as appropriate. Because
they are system based
and user code shouldn't say anything about their positioning.

But for my dialogs (especially for dialogs where I need to ask for
credentials) - I don't think I want
WM to do my job.

Again - we are talking positioning here and not size/client size.

Thank you.

>
> ChrisA
> --
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

From rosuav at gmail.com  Tue Jan 12 18:07:23 2021
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Wed, 13 Jan 2021 10:07:23 +1100
Subject: Application window geometry specifier
In-Reply-To: <CA+FnnTz4+9ptq7roS42dt1drmDZ=H0vzYw7=hy9NHNShfVDf_w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <alpine.LNX.2.20.2101120831280.12379@salmo.appl-ecosys.com>
 <CAPTjJmpqG21j2rVTqUJg_-=_6RWg50rnUi_8KdDc3kSHpzO6Ng@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+FnnTwS8A2zQkSJiJVL3Toid+0Xg_bm90mTKArxC-qY1X62SA@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.LNX.2.20.2101120938140.12379@salmo.appl-ecosys.com>
 <rtkqkr$l9j$1@ciao.gmane.io>
 <CA+FnnTz2=E=aiFaQNucmuL=d5Y9LE12Atz=BP6oQo0iH47kvqQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPTjJmoQH4jFKfoBHSGFdY-DrLWPo_H-fAhSBOSMvs2KhUEW=A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+FnnTyCULGvpwwYcFVYY5fkmbrHmR_VXX9nPpr6+JYT-awMAA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPTjJmqpikubYzKQ681WzqQgX7dBBg=+L4_816CteStU8zXdiA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+FnnTz9iXt=mc+GNV0TU2KDtbcy8ap1QqpjimFqJGML_-W+0g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPTjJmoMz4oonV1y1fdyd-Ts3M7J1SiAd=vhd6WpSkFin+cVCQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+FnnTz4+9ptq7roS42dt1drmDZ=H0vzYw7=hy9NHNShfVDf_w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmrk1CQZQSgCdmGdWrSXfpdWOOHngVQKEvjyMXiW+-NbQQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Jan 13, 2021 at 10:02 AM Igor Korot <ikorot01 at gmail.com> wrote:
> But for my dialogs (especially for dialogs where I need to ask for
> credentials) - I don't think I want
> WM to do my job.
>
> Again - we are talking positioning here and not size/client size.
>

And I don't think I want you to do the WM's job.

You're welcome to keep going to great effort to do the wrong thing,
but be aware that nobody will appreciate the work you're doing, and in
fact are more likely to curse you for it. Just save yourself a LOT of
hassle and let the WM do its job. It knows the user's wishes better
than you do.

ChrisA

From greg.ewing at canterbury.ac.nz  Wed Jan 13 00:16:34 2021
From: greg.ewing at canterbury.ac.nz (Greg Ewing)
Date: Wed, 13 Jan 2021 18:16:34 +1300
Subject: argparse presence of switch
In-Reply-To: <mailman.724.1610475222.7193.python-list@python.org>
References: <20f77a6a-0331-4455-a7bd-05901e014994n@googlegroups.com>
 <CAPTjJmohPm0o=XV+w7qMbSgi+bzkSRb5cpUKUkg8Y6Rhf2_jiw@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.724.1610475222.7193.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <i67e1iFkmqnU1@mid.individual.net>

On 13/01/21 7:13 am, Chris Angelico wrote:

> This is what different actions are for. I'd probably use
> action="store_true" here; that should mean that args.register will be
> set to True if "-r" was passed, or False if it wasn't.

Yes, otherwise it expects another argument following -r
containing a value.

-- 
Greg

From greg.ewing at canterbury.ac.nz  Wed Jan 13 00:24:03 2021
From: greg.ewing at canterbury.ac.nz (Greg Ewing)
Date: Wed, 13 Jan 2021 18:24:03 +1300
Subject: A beginning beginner's question about input, output and . . .
In-Reply-To: <mailman.715.1610468030.7193.python-list@python.org>
References: <i1apvfhooqevl9gkol3ic0itcbdoi0m6a4@4ax.com>
 <r6qvch-sme.ln1@anthive.com> <rtkejd$h8k$1@ciao.gmane.io>
 <mailman.715.1610468030.7193.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <i67efjFkmqnU2@mid.individual.net>

On 13/01/21 4:18 am, Grant Edwards wrote:

> AFAIK, Python can't be used to write device drivers for any popular OS

At least not until some crazy person embeds Python in the
Linux kernel...

-- 
Greg

From auriocus at gmx.de  Wed Jan 13 01:57:21 2021
From: auriocus at gmx.de (Christian Gollwitzer)
Date: Wed, 13 Jan 2021 07:57:21 +0100
Subject: A beginning beginner's question about input, output and . . .
In-Reply-To: <i67efjFkmqnU2@mid.individual.net>
References: <i1apvfhooqevl9gkol3ic0itcbdoi0m6a4@4ax.com>
 <r6qvch-sme.ln1@anthive.com> <rtkejd$h8k$1@ciao.gmane.io>
 <mailman.715.1610468030.7193.python-list@python.org>
 <i67efjFkmqnU2@mid.individual.net>
Message-ID: <rtm5kh$q2i$2@dont-email.me>

Am 13.01.21 um 06:24 schrieb Greg Ewing:
> On 13/01/21 4:18 am, Grant Edwards wrote:
> 
>> AFAIK, Python can't be used to write device drivers for any popular OS
> 
> At least not until some crazy person embeds Python in the
> Linux kernel...


  What do you mean, "until" ?

https://medium.com/@yon.goldschmidt/running-python-in-the-linux-kernel-7cbcbd44503c

http://www.kplugs.org/

	Christian

From grimble at nomail.afraid.org  Wed Jan 13 10:31:44 2021
From: grimble at nomail.afraid.org (Grimble)
Date: Wed, 13 Jan 2021 15:31:44 +0000
Subject: A beginning beginner's question about input, output and . . .
In-Reply-To: <i1apvfhooqevl9gkol3ic0itcbdoi0m6a4@4ax.com>
References: <i1apvfhooqevl9gkol3ic0itcbdoi0m6a4@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <rtn3p0$8dn$1@dont-email.me>

On 11/01/2021 20:37, DonK wrote:
> 
>
> 
> So, what do you folks use Python for?
> 
> 
I've written a shopping list script with auto-completion and a couple of 
web-scraping applications that support a weather reporting application 
interfacing with various 1Wire sensors transcribed from an initial Ruby 
application. My largest GUI application is a database of personal 
contacts with input and output of data via vCards and .csv files (with a 
lot of mentoring from an American Gtk user!)
I find this a fascinating news group - shame there's been no updates to 
Friday Finking recently

-- 
Grimble
Registered Linux User #450547
Machine 'Bach' running Plasma 5.15.4 on 5.7.19-desktop-3.mga7 kernel.
Mageia release 7 (Official) for x86_64

From songbird at anthive.com  Wed Jan 13 10:37:39 2021
From: songbird at anthive.com (songbird)
Date: Wed, 13 Jan 2021 10:37:39 -0500
Subject: conceptual problem (was: A beginning beginner's question about
 input, output and . . .
References: <i1apvfhooqevl9gkol3ic0itcbdoi0m6a4@4ax.com>
 <r6qvch-sme.ln1@anthive.com>
 <CAPTjJmoDhx_sTDpMyhUk0w80GWpf73AqMihRJmBj-5KGUM2gDQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.711.1610433263.7193.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <3ng3dh-kha.ln1@anthive.com>

Chris Angelico wrote:
...projects that fade...
> That's not really something Python can ever control, but I can say
> with some confidence that the big libraries like Qt and GTK are going
> to adapt, one way or another. And perhaps more importantly: Neither
> input()/print() nor web applications is going *anywhere*. You are
> ALWAYS going to have those two as options.

  :)  i hope so. :)

  at the moment i've only done things with GTK and pyglet.
since i am way too new at python i can't say the code is
pretty, but it does work.

  my momentary conceptual problem is that to me OOP means
being able to encapsulate data structures and code from
other parts of the program, but to me it doesn't look like
that is how python is designed.  this is probably a complete
aside to this whole thread and perhaps even this newsgroup
so i'll subthread this.


  songbird

From songbird at anthive.com  Wed Jan 13 10:24:21 2021
From: songbird at anthive.com (songbird)
Date: Wed, 13 Jan 2021 10:24:21 -0500
Subject: A beginning beginner's question about input, output and . . .
References: <i1apvfhooqevl9gkol3ic0itcbdoi0m6a4@4ax.com>
 <r6qvch-sme.ln1@anthive.com> <rtkejd$h8k$1@ciao.gmane.io>
 <mailman.715.1610468030.7193.python-list@python.org>
 <i67efjFkmqnU2@mid.individual.net> <rtm5kh$q2i$2@dont-email.me>
Message-ID: <5uf3dh-kha.ln1@anthive.com>

Christian Gollwitzer wrote:
> Am 13.01.21 um 06:24 schrieb Greg Ewing:
>> On 13/01/21 4:18 am, Grant Edwards wrote:
>> 
>>> AFAIK, Python can't be used to write device drivers for any popular OS
>> 
>> At least not until some crazy person embeds Python in the
>> Linux kernel...
>
>
>   What do you mean, "until" ?
>
> https://medium.com/@yon.goldschmidt/running-python-in-the-linux-kernel-7cbcbd44503c
>
> http://www.kplugs.org/

  yes!  haha!  :)  love it!  wish i had time to play now.


  songbird

From grimble at nomail.afraid.org  Wed Jan 13 10:54:10 2021
From: grimble at nomail.afraid.org (Grimble)
Date: Wed, 13 Jan 2021 15:54:10 +0000
Subject: A beginning beginner's question about input, output and . . .
In-Reply-To: <i1apvfhooqevl9gkol3ic0itcbdoi0m6a4@4ax.com>
References: <i1apvfhooqevl9gkol3ic0itcbdoi0m6a4@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <rtn533$j8u$1@dont-email.me>

On 11/01/2021 20:37, DonK wrote:
> 
> Hi, I'm thinking about learning Python but I'm 74 years old and will
> very likely not ever have a programming job again. 
At 83, I have no intention of having a programming job again! I last 
coded something professionally 45 years ago, but it hasn't lost its 
attraction.
> So, what do you folks use Python for?
> 
I have several scripts to help with activities for the charity that 
keeps me occupied. I've written a shopping list script with 
auto-completion and a couple of web-scraping applications that support a 
weather reporting application interfacing with various 1Wire sensors 
transcribed from an initial Ruby application. My largest GUI application 
is a database of personal contacts with input and output of data via 
vCards and .csv files (with a lot of mentoring from an American Gtk user!)
I find this a fascinating news group - shame there's been no updates to 
Friday Finking recently!

-- 
Grimble
Registered Linux User #450547
Machine 'Bach' running Plasma 5.15.4 on 5.7.19-desktop-3.mga7 kernel.
Mageia release 7 (Official) for x86_64



From pkpearson at nowhere.invalid  Wed Jan 13 16:01:52 2021
From: pkpearson at nowhere.invalid (Peter Pearson)
Date: 13 Jan 2021 21:01:52 GMT
Subject: A beginning beginner's question about input, output and . . .
References: <i1apvfhooqevl9gkol3ic0itcbdoi0m6a4@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <i695e0Fm68U1@mid.individual.net>

On Mon, 11 Jan 2021 15:37:58 -0500, DonK <don81846 at comcast.net.REMOVEME> wrote:
[snip]
>
> I've seen some Python gui frameworks like Tkinter, PyQt, etc. but they
> look kinda like adding a family room onto a 1986 double wide mobile
> home, 

Agreed.

Browsergui is not widely popular (I don't think anybody but me has
mentioned it on this newsgroup), but it was written to be simple and
Pythonic, and has served me well.  Browsergui just uses your browser as
its user interface.  Grab it from

    https://github.com/speezepearson/browsergui

then run "python -m browsergui.examples".

(Disclaimer/boast: I'm related to Browsergui's author.)

-- 
To email me, substitute nowhere->runbox, invalid->com.

From cs at cskk.id.au  Wed Jan 13 17:49:40 2021
From: cs at cskk.id.au (Cameron Simpson)
Date: Thu, 14 Jan 2021 09:49:40 +1100
Subject: conceptual problem (was: A beginning beginner's question about
 input, output and . . .
In-Reply-To: <3ng3dh-kha.ln1@anthive.com>
References: <3ng3dh-kha.ln1@anthive.com>
Message-ID: <X/95BM+zlwqlj9iK@cskk.homeip.net>

On 13Jan2021 10:37, songbird <songbird at anthive.com> wrote:
>  my momentary conceptual problem is that to me OOP means
>being able to encapsulate data structures and code from
>other parts of the program, but to me it doesn't look like
>that is how python is designed.  this is probably a complete
>aside to this whole thread and perhaps even this newsgroup
>so i'll subthread this.

Python allows you to avoid mucking with the object internals from 
outside. But it doesn't prevent it.

So you can (and often should) adopt an OOP approach - it reduces the 
dependencies between your classes, with the benefits that brings.

The "pure" OOP approach, where method calls are used as messages to set 
or fetch aspects of the object, is usually does with getter and setter 
methods like:

    x = o.getX()
    o.setX(9)

In Python this is less common. Simple things like that which do not 
intrude much on the conceptual model (i.e. if all such things will have 
an "X") are usually exposed as a public attribute which you can get or 
set directly:

    x = o.x
    o.x = 9

"Public" attributes in Python are just a convention: we name "private" 
attributes with a leading underscore and "public" attributes with 
leading letters and expect people using our classes to behave well.

Sometime we _don't_ have a plain old attribute "x", but we do have a 
property of the object looking like it. Then you can implement something 
which looks like an attribute from outside:

    @property
    def x(self):
        # "x" if a derived value
        return self._a + self._b

    @x.setter
    def x(self, new_x):
        # setting "x" gets split between _a and _b
        x2 = x / 3
        self._a = x2        # put some in _a
        self._b = x - x2    # put the rest in _b

    # you can still do this, but it calls methods now
    x = o.x
    o.x = 9

So Python supports OOP practices but doesn't enforce them. Adopt the 
degree of discipline you think best.

Cheers,
Cameron Simpson <cs at cskk.id.au>

From philb at philb.ca  Wed Jan 13 17:49:28 2021
From: philb at philb.ca (Phil Boutros)
Date: Wed, 13 Jan 2021 22:49:28 -0000 (UTC)
Subject: learning python building 2nd app, need advices
References: <3170f050-4d37-4a64-96cb-f3718a3ef2aan@googlegroups.com>
 <a7b9a82c-6351-4df5-59eb-f12c71c62985@Damon-Family.org>
 <6da92d5c-29c9-45b6-9078-5f1fef7a1b34n@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.684.1610155654.7193.python-list@python.org>
 <37329709-b300-4c1e-af88-8ed0d6de588bn@googlegroups.com>
 <878s8zn0ol.fsf@hornfels.zedat.fu-berlin.de>
Message-ID: <slrnrvuu7o.v5v.philb@ah61.is-a-geek.com>

Loris Bennett <loris.bennett at fu-berlin.de> wrote:
<snip>
> As an Emacs user, personally I would use the command 
>
>   M-x untabify
>
> within Emacs.  I assume that Vim has something similar.

    It does.  ':retab' is what you want.  If you have tabstop set to a
specific value, it'll use that.  If not, you can do ':retab <spaces>',
where <spaces> is an integer defining how many spaces to replace a tab
with.

    Don't add the quote symbols ('), I added it for readability!

    As others have mentionned, 'expand' from the shell also works. 
    
Phil
-- 
AH#61  Wolf#14  BS#89  bus#1  CCB#1  SENS  KOTC#4
philb at philb.ca  http://philb.ca

From PythonList at DancesWithMice.info  Wed Jan 13 19:06:54 2021
From: PythonList at DancesWithMice.info (dn)
Date: Thu, 14 Jan 2021 13:06:54 +1300
Subject: FridayFinking - Was: A beginning beginner's question about input,
 output and . . .
In-Reply-To: <rtn533$j8u$1@dont-email.me>
References: <i1apvfhooqevl9gkol3ic0itcbdoi0m6a4@4ax.com>
 <rtn533$j8u$1@dont-email.me>
Message-ID: <b15284cb-137c-916b-3a5e-ea8534517797@DancesWithMice.info>

On 14/01/2021 04.54, Grimble wrote:
> On 11/01/2021 20:37, DonK wrote:
>>
>> Hi, I'm thinking about learning Python but I'm 74 years old and will
>> very likely not ever have a programming job again. 

> At 83, I have no intention of having a programming job again! I last
> coded something professionally 45 years ago, but it hasn't lost its
> attraction.

Hey, some 'silver surfers' who have a few years on me!

Concerning the definition of "old"
- when I'm having a 'good day', it's anyone several years my senior (and
above)
- when I'm creaking and groaning, it's anyone remotely my age, and older.


Of course, many of my colleagues have fairly similar understandings -
for them anyone with the digit "3" (or greater) at the front of their
age, is not so much old (saying that would be rude!), but "ancient"!


That said, such young-bucks wrestling with cloud-concepts today, were
totally nonplussed when I told them how (mainframe) computer bureaux
used to work. The 'mechanics' may be different, but the management is
little-changed!


...

> I find this a fascinating news group - shame there's been no updates to
> Friday Finking recently!


With all due apologies!

I work(ed) with a particular team in a mentoring r?le, handling reviews,
walk-throughs, some design meetings, Python version-upgrades coaching,
etc. One of these was a 'morning tea' meeting, when we would
discuss/debate/argue 'Python best practice' topics, either raised by
members or that arose from other meetings but were best not discussed
there-and-then.

If there was an interesting topic, or one that 'we' hadn't really
settled satisfactorily within the group, I would try to re-frame the
discussion, and consult 'the oracles' here. So, that's the raison d'?tre
and motivation of the "Friday Finking" series..


Then along came COVID-19, and although this country's response was
amongst the best in the world, the team (and its routines) all-but
fell-apart. Firstly, we had to adjust to working remotely. The effort
that went into 'Friday Finking' was quickly absorbed into figuring-out
remote-techniques and maintaining the social component of the team's
success. Then a bunch of us were 'released to other duties' and
landed-in high-pressure projects to do with modelling pandemic
response-options. Various other interventions, life moved-on, etc, etc -
stories familiar to most, I'm sure.


So, thank you for the gentle reminder. Even though that team is still
not meeting as it once did, there's plenty of other 'inspiration', eg a
parallel discussion 'here' about the virtues of a programmer positioning
dialog(ue)s/windows or leaving it to the window manager...


I'll give it some thought - as long as Fridays keep coming!
-- 
Regards =dn

From Bischoop at vimart.net  Wed Jan 13 16:20:32 2021
From: Bischoop at vimart.net (Bischoop)
Date: Wed, 13 Jan 2021 21:20:32 -0000 (UTC)
Subject: count consecutive elements
Message-ID: <slrnrvup10.dse.Bischoop@vimart.net>

I want to  to display a number or an alphabet which appears mostly
consecutive in a given string or numbers or both
Examples
s= ' aabskaaabadcccc'
output: c
# c appears 4 consecutive times
 8bbakebaoa
output: b
#b appears 2 consecutive times

I thought about set the string then and for each element loop the string
to check if equal with element set element if so count =+1 and check if
next to it is not equal add counter value to list with same index as in
set.
However I'm fighting to code it and the counting numbers are not right:


s = 'aabskaaabadcccc'

c = 0
t = set(s) # set of characters in s
li=[0,0,0,0,0,0]  # list for counted repeats

for x in t:
    h = t.index(x)
    for i in s:
        if i == x:
            m = s.index(i)
            c +=1
            if s[m+1] != x:  # if next element is not x
                if c > li[h]: 
                    li[h]= c
                c = 0

for i in t:
    n = t.index(i)
    print(i,li[n])

--
Thanks

From grant.b.edwards at gmail.com  Wed Jan 13 16:46:08 2021
From: grant.b.edwards at gmail.com (Grant Edwards)
Date: Wed, 13 Jan 2021 21:46:08 -0000 (UTC)
Subject: A beginning beginner's question about input, output and . . .
References: <i1apvfhooqevl9gkol3ic0itcbdoi0m6a4@4ax.com>
 <i695e0Fm68U1@mid.individual.net>
Message-ID: <rtnpn0$p4b$1@ciao.gmane.io>

On 2021-01-13, Peter Pearson <pkpearson at nowhere.invalid> wrote:
> On Mon, 11 Jan 2021 15:37:58 -0500, DonK <don81846 at comcast.net.REMOVEME> wrote:
> [snip]
>>
>> I've seen some Python gui frameworks like Tkinter, PyQt, etc. but they
>> look kinda like adding a family room onto a 1986 double wide mobile
>> home, 
>
> Agreed.
>
> Browsergui is not widely popular (I don't think anybody but me has
> mentioned it on this newsgroup), but it was written to be simple and
> Pythonic, and has served me well.  Browsergui just uses your browser as
> its user interface.  Grab it from
>
>     https://github.com/speezepearson/browsergui

I've been browsing through to documentation and examples, and I don't
see any way to do any sort of modern flexible layout (e.g. nesting
horizontal and vertical flexboxes) where you can control which
elements grow/shrink when the window size changes.

Is there a way to span columns/rows in a grid or control which columns
grow/shrink?

Have I missed something?

--
Grant



From Bischoop at vimart.net  Wed Jan 13 16:48:26 2021
From: Bischoop at vimart.net (Bischoop)
Date: Wed, 13 Jan 2021 21:48:26 -0000 (UTC)
Subject: count consecutive elements
References: <slrnrvup10.dse.Bischoop@vimart.net>
Message-ID: <slrnrvuqla.dse.Bischoop@vimart.net>

On 2021-01-13, Bischoop <Bischoop at vimart.net> wrote:
> t = set(s) # set of characters in s

I have this one changed to:
t= list(set(s))

From grant.b.edwards at gmail.com  Wed Jan 13 17:09:00 2021
From: grant.b.edwards at gmail.com (Grant Edwards)
Date: Wed, 13 Jan 2021 22:09:00 -0000 (UTC)
Subject: A beginning beginner's question about input, output and . . .
References: <i1apvfhooqevl9gkol3ic0itcbdoi0m6a4@4ax.com>
 <r6qvch-sme.ln1@anthive.com> <rtkejd$h8k$1@ciao.gmane.io>
 <afluvftkhuodi8v3bpk3ml8euk1o73bnd2@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <rtnr1s$5ek$1@ciao.gmane.io>

On 2021-01-13, Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed at ix.netcom.com> wrote:
> On Tue, 12 Jan 2021 15:18:05 -0000 (UTC), Grant Edwards
><grant.b.edwards at gmail.com> declaimed the following:
>>On 2021-01-12, songbird <songbird at anthive.com> wrote:
>>
>>> it can be used for pretty much anything except perhaps high
>>> pressure real time things, but i bet someone else will know that
>>> is being done too, i've just not heard of it.  :)
>>
>>AFAIK, Python can't be used to write device drivers for any popular OS
>>(Linux, Unix, Windows, OSX). It also can't be used on small embedded
>>systems (real-time or not).
>
> 	MicroPython/Circuit Python. Native language for AdaFruit's Metro
> boards.

Those are very cool, and I've come this -><- close to ordering one in
the past.  Perhaps I need to recalibrate my adjectives, but with
256KB+ of flash and 32KB+ of RAM, I wouldn't call them "small" -- even
though the Trinket M0 is physically tiny. But that may just be my age
showing. I remember not _that_ long ago working on processors where
the RAM was measured in hundreds of bytes. And I still maintain code
for ARM parts with way less than 1/10 the memory of the Trinket M0.

--
Grant




From rshepard at appl-ecosys.com  Wed Jan 13 19:26:46 2021
From: rshepard at appl-ecosys.com (Rich Shepard)
Date: Wed, 13 Jan 2021 16:26:46 -0800 (PST)
Subject: FridayFinking - Was: A beginning beginner's question about input, 
 output and . . .
In-Reply-To: <b15284cb-137c-916b-3a5e-ea8534517797@DancesWithMice.info>
References: <i1apvfhooqevl9gkol3ic0itcbdoi0m6a4@4ax.com>
 <rtn533$j8u$1@dont-email.me>
 <b15284cb-137c-916b-3a5e-ea8534517797@DancesWithMice.info>
Message-ID: <alpine.LNX.2.20.2101131624000.32588@salmo.appl-ecosys.com>

On Thu, 14 Jan 2021, dn via Python-list wrote:

> Concerning the definition of "old"
> - when I'm having a 'good day', it's anyone several years my senior (and
> above)
> - when I'm creaking and groaning, it's anyone remotely my age, and older.

About 45 years ago a 25-year-older friend of mine offered a great philosophy
of life. "We can do nothing about growing older," she told me, "but we can
do everything about growing old."

How true.

Rich

From greg.ewing at canterbury.ac.nz  Wed Jan 13 19:39:21 2021
From: greg.ewing at canterbury.ac.nz (Greg Ewing)
Date: Thu, 14 Jan 2021 13:39:21 +1300
Subject: A beginning beginner's question about input, output and . . .
In-Reply-To: <rtm5kh$q2i$2@dont-email.me>
References: <i1apvfhooqevl9gkol3ic0itcbdoi0m6a4@4ax.com>
 <r6qvch-sme.ln1@anthive.com> <rtkejd$h8k$1@ciao.gmane.io>
 <mailman.715.1610468030.7193.python-list@python.org>
 <i67efjFkmqnU2@mid.individual.net> <rtm5kh$q2i$2@dont-email.me>
Message-ID: <i69i5sF3c9aU1@mid.individual.net>

On 13/01/21 7:57 pm, Christian Gollwitzer wrote:
>  ?What do you mean, "until" ?
> 
> https://medium.com/@yon.goldschmidt/running-python-in-the-linux-kernel-7cbcbd44503c 

He's using Micropython. That's cheating! :-)

-- 
Greg

From python at bladeshadow.org  Wed Jan 13 19:50:58 2021
From: python at bladeshadow.org (Python)
Date: Wed, 13 Jan 2021 18:50:58 -0600
Subject: Application window geometry specifier
In-Reply-To: <CAPTjJmrk1CQZQSgCdmGdWrSXfpdWOOHngVQKEvjyMXiW+-NbQQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <alpine.LNX.2.20.2101120938140.12379@salmo.appl-ecosys.com>
 <rtkqkr$l9j$1@ciao.gmane.io>
 <CA+FnnTz2=E=aiFaQNucmuL=d5Y9LE12Atz=BP6oQo0iH47kvqQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPTjJmoQH4jFKfoBHSGFdY-DrLWPo_H-fAhSBOSMvs2KhUEW=A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+FnnTyCULGvpwwYcFVYY5fkmbrHmR_VXX9nPpr6+JYT-awMAA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPTjJmqpikubYzKQ681WzqQgX7dBBg=+L4_816CteStU8zXdiA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+FnnTz9iXt=mc+GNV0TU2KDtbcy8ap1QqpjimFqJGML_-W+0g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPTjJmoMz4oonV1y1fdyd-Ts3M7J1SiAd=vhd6WpSkFin+cVCQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+FnnTz4+9ptq7roS42dt1drmDZ=H0vzYw7=hy9NHNShfVDf_w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPTjJmrk1CQZQSgCdmGdWrSXfpdWOOHngVQKEvjyMXiW+-NbQQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20210114005058.GD31888@bladeshadow.org>

On Wed, Jan 13, 2021 at 10:07:23AM +1100, Chris Angelico wrote:
> On Wed, Jan 13, 2021 at 10:02 AM Igor Korot <ikorot01 at gmail.com> wrote:
> > But for my dialogs (especially for dialogs where I need to ask for
> > credentials) - I don't think I want
> > WM to do my job.
> >
> > Again - we are talking positioning here and not size/client size.
> >
> 
> And I don't think I want you to do the WM's job.
> 
> You're welcome to keep going to great effort to do the wrong thing,
> but be aware that nobody will appreciate the work you're doing, and in
> fact are more likely to curse you for it. Just save yourself a LOT of
> hassle and let the WM do its job. It knows the user's wishes better
> than you do.

I think this is quite very, very far from true.  It's been a while
since I've used such tools, but I believe it is or was quite common
for large, integrated applications like DAWs, graphical design
software, etc. to remember where you placed your various floating
toolbars and add-ons (and even much more detailed state about how
you'd set the various widgets in them), and that users of such
applications expect that.

Obviously the software needs to be aware of, and compensate for, cases
when the available display can't draw the various widgets in visible
space on the desktop/canvas/whatever, but if the application wants to
do all that, it seems like a perfectly wonderful feature to me.  The
last thing I want to do is spend 15 minutes to relocate and reconfgure
UI elements to where and how I like them before I can even start
working on a media project (or whatever).


From rosuav at gmail.com  Wed Jan 13 19:58:34 2021
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Thu, 14 Jan 2021 11:58:34 +1100
Subject: Application window geometry specifier
In-Reply-To: <20210114005058.GD31888@bladeshadow.org>
References: <alpine.LNX.2.20.2101120938140.12379@salmo.appl-ecosys.com>
 <rtkqkr$l9j$1@ciao.gmane.io>
 <CA+FnnTz2=E=aiFaQNucmuL=d5Y9LE12Atz=BP6oQo0iH47kvqQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPTjJmoQH4jFKfoBHSGFdY-DrLWPo_H-fAhSBOSMvs2KhUEW=A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+FnnTyCULGvpwwYcFVYY5fkmbrHmR_VXX9nPpr6+JYT-awMAA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPTjJmqpikubYzKQ681WzqQgX7dBBg=+L4_816CteStU8zXdiA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+FnnTz9iXt=mc+GNV0TU2KDtbcy8ap1QqpjimFqJGML_-W+0g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPTjJmoMz4oonV1y1fdyd-Ts3M7J1SiAd=vhd6WpSkFin+cVCQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+FnnTz4+9ptq7roS42dt1drmDZ=H0vzYw7=hy9NHNShfVDf_w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPTjJmrk1CQZQSgCdmGdWrSXfpdWOOHngVQKEvjyMXiW+-NbQQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20210114005058.GD31888@bladeshadow.org>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmq+K8zB_Ut3NARPWgWV2jae=T-GkXRqzvH0JaQb=7qieQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Jan 14, 2021 at 11:53 AM Python <python at bladeshadow.org> wrote:
>
> On Wed, Jan 13, 2021 at 10:07:23AM +1100, Chris Angelico wrote:
> > On Wed, Jan 13, 2021 at 10:02 AM Igor Korot <ikorot01 at gmail.com> wrote:
> > > But for my dialogs (especially for dialogs where I need to ask for
> > > credentials) - I don't think I want
> > > WM to do my job.
> > >
> > > Again - we are talking positioning here and not size/client size.
> > >
> >
> > And I don't think I want you to do the WM's job.
> >
> > You're welcome to keep going to great effort to do the wrong thing,
> > but be aware that nobody will appreciate the work you're doing, and in
> > fact are more likely to curse you for it. Just save yourself a LOT of
> > hassle and let the WM do its job. It knows the user's wishes better
> > than you do.
>
> I think this is quite very, very far from true.  It's been a while
> since I've used such tools, but I believe it is or was quite common
> for large, integrated applications like DAWs, graphical design
> software, etc. to remember where you placed your various floating
> toolbars and add-ons (and even much more detailed state about how
> you'd set the various widgets in them), and that users of such
> applications expect that.
>

Have you actually done any research by (a) asking people what they
actually prefer, and better still (b) silently watching over someone's
shoulder and seeing which one makes people more productive?

The results will differ based on whether the user in question has
basically just one primary application (an IDE, or some gigantic app
like Adobe PhotoShop) that they spend all their time in, or if they're
using myriad different applications. Especially in the latter case, it
is far FAR better to put control in the user's hands than to try to
make the monopoly position work. Of course, if you are a big enough
name (like Apple, especially), you can do whatever you like, and
people just have to accept it. That's a monopoly for you, and there's
no evidence that it's better, just that people learn to live with it.

ChrisA

From greg.ewing at canterbury.ac.nz  Wed Jan 13 20:01:57 2021
From: greg.ewing at canterbury.ac.nz (Greg Ewing)
Date: Thu, 14 Jan 2021 14:01:57 +1300
Subject: A beginning beginner's question about input, output and . . .
In-Reply-To: <mailman.749.1610584726.7193.python-list@python.org>
References: <i1apvfhooqevl9gkol3ic0itcbdoi0m6a4@4ax.com>
 <r6qvch-sme.ln1@anthive.com> <rtkejd$h8k$1@ciao.gmane.io>
 <afluvftkhuodi8v3bpk3ml8euk1o73bnd2@4ax.com> <rtnr1s$5ek$1@ciao.gmane.io>
 <mailman.749.1610584726.7193.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <i69jg5F3jboU1@mid.individual.net>

On 14/01/21 11:09 am, Grant Edwards wrote:
> Perhaps I need to recalibrate my adjectives, but with
> 256KB+ of flash and 32KB+ of RAM, I wouldn't call them "small"

It's small by today's standards, when you consider that
multiple GB of RAM is commonplace now in most "real" computers.

-- 
Greg

From python at bladeshadow.org  Wed Jan 13 19:31:51 2021
From: python at bladeshadow.org (Python)
Date: Wed, 13 Jan 2021 18:31:51 -0600
Subject: Application window geometry specifier
In-Reply-To: <rtkqkr$l9j$1@ciao.gmane.io>
References: <alpine.LNX.2.20.2101120831280.12379@salmo.appl-ecosys.com>
 <CAPTjJmpqG21j2rVTqUJg_-=_6RWg50rnUi_8KdDc3kSHpzO6Ng@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+FnnTwS8A2zQkSJiJVL3Toid+0Xg_bm90mTKArxC-qY1X62SA@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.LNX.2.20.2101120938140.12379@salmo.appl-ecosys.com>
 <rtkqkr$l9j$1@ciao.gmane.io>
Message-ID: <20210114003151.GC31888@bladeshadow.org>

On Tue, Jan 12, 2021 at 06:43:39PM -0000, Grant Edwards wrote:
> And those X11 users will swear at you if you override their window
> managers configured window placement. Application code should not care
> about or try to control window geometry. Period.

I think this is just plain wrong.  If you, the user, want to override
what you, the user, configured your window manager to do, for WHATEVER
reason your little heart may desire, then the application needs to
give you an interface to request it, and rather importantly the WM must
necessarily honor it.

The policy reallly ought to be:

 - If the user took the time to specify a geometry, do what it says
   (i.e. honor the placement the application asks for)
 - If not but the window manager has something configured for that
    application/widget/whatever, do what it says
 - Otherwise, resort to the window manager's default policy

Arguably there ought to also be a way for the application to *suggest*
a default geometry that the WM can override, but obviously providing a
way to force the geometry gives rise to the opportunity for abuse by
badly behaved developers.  Don't use those apps.

Fortunately, at least historically, in practice most X11 window
managers more or less did all that anyway.  I recall that when I
switched to Gnome I had some trouble with this (as in, it just didn't
work, generally, even if the relevant app allowed you to specify
--geometry or similar), but AFAICT Gnome has long held to the notion
that Gnome Gnows better than you do how you should run your apps, so
when using Gnome all bets are off.


From python at bladeshadow.org  Wed Jan 13 20:16:24 2021
From: python at bladeshadow.org (Python)
Date: Wed, 13 Jan 2021 19:16:24 -0600
Subject: Application window geometry specifier
In-Reply-To: <CAPTjJmq+K8zB_Ut3NARPWgWV2jae=T-GkXRqzvH0JaQb=7qieQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CA+FnnTz2=E=aiFaQNucmuL=d5Y9LE12Atz=BP6oQo0iH47kvqQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPTjJmoQH4jFKfoBHSGFdY-DrLWPo_H-fAhSBOSMvs2KhUEW=A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+FnnTyCULGvpwwYcFVYY5fkmbrHmR_VXX9nPpr6+JYT-awMAA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPTjJmqpikubYzKQ681WzqQgX7dBBg=+L4_816CteStU8zXdiA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+FnnTz9iXt=mc+GNV0TU2KDtbcy8ap1QqpjimFqJGML_-W+0g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPTjJmoMz4oonV1y1fdyd-Ts3M7J1SiAd=vhd6WpSkFin+cVCQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+FnnTz4+9ptq7roS42dt1drmDZ=H0vzYw7=hy9NHNShfVDf_w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPTjJmrk1CQZQSgCdmGdWrSXfpdWOOHngVQKEvjyMXiW+-NbQQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20210114005058.GD31888@bladeshadow.org>
 <CAPTjJmq+K8zB_Ut3NARPWgWV2jae=T-GkXRqzvH0JaQb=7qieQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20210114011624.GE31888@bladeshadow.org>

On Thu, Jan 14, 2021 at 11:58:34AM +1100, Chris Angelico wrote:
> On Thu, Jan 14, 2021 at 11:53 AM Python <python at bladeshadow.org> wrote:
> Have you actually done any research by (a) asking people what they
> actually prefer, and better still (b) silently watching over someone's
> shoulder and seeing which one makes people more productive?

As I said, though it's been a long while, I was actually a user of
such applications myself.  So I can tell you quite authoritatively
that in those kinds of apps, *I* absolutely prefer that the app
remember where my windows are and what's in them, no contest.  And I
would always use them alongside a slew of other apps--web browsers,
text editors, mail clients, etc... most likely on a separate desktop,
if I wasn't mobile, but necessarily on the same one if I was.

> The results will differ based on whether the user in question has
> basically just one primary application (an IDE, or some gigantic app
> like Adobe PhotoShop) that they spend all their time in

OK, so you admit that such apps do exist.  But I guess you knew that
the OP is not writing that sort of application, and know who its
intended audience is, and their work habits and preferences...


From ikorot01 at gmail.com  Wed Jan 13 20:25:04 2021
From: ikorot01 at gmail.com (Igor Korot)
Date: Wed, 13 Jan 2021 19:25:04 -0600
Subject: Application window geometry specifier
In-Reply-To: <20210114003151.GC31888@bladeshadow.org>
References: <alpine.LNX.2.20.2101120831280.12379@salmo.appl-ecosys.com>
 <CAPTjJmpqG21j2rVTqUJg_-=_6RWg50rnUi_8KdDc3kSHpzO6Ng@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+FnnTwS8A2zQkSJiJVL3Toid+0Xg_bm90mTKArxC-qY1X62SA@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.LNX.2.20.2101120938140.12379@salmo.appl-ecosys.com>
 <rtkqkr$l9j$1@ciao.gmane.io> <20210114003151.GC31888@bladeshadow.org>
Message-ID: <CA+FnnTz1na-6s67AhmzBieZjaX8B-FYqwcpNSwyV_OozCtO7bQ@mail.gmail.com>

Hi,

On Wed, Jan 13, 2021 at 7:12 PM Python <python at bladeshadow.org> wrote:
>
> On Tue, Jan 12, 2021 at 06:43:39PM -0000, Grant Edwards wrote:
> > And those X11 users will swear at you if you override their window
> > managers configured window placement. Application code should not care
> > about or try to control window geometry. Period.
>
> I think this is just plain wrong.  If you, the user, want to override
> what you, the user, configured your window manager to do, for WHATEVER
> reason your little heart may desire, then the application needs to
> give you an interface to request it, and rather importantly the WM must
> necessarily honor it.
>
> The policy reallly ought to be:
>
>  - If the user took the time to specify a geometry, do what it says
>    (i.e. honor the placement the application asks for)
>  - If not but the window manager has something configured for that
>     application/widget/whatever, do what it says
>  - Otherwise, resort to the window manager's default policy
>
> Arguably there ought to also be a way for the application to *suggest*
> a default geometry that the WM can override, but obviously providing a
> way to force the geometry gives rise to the opportunity for abuse by
> badly behaved developers.  Don't use those apps.
>
> Fortunately, at least historically, in practice most X11 window
> managers more or less did all that anyway.  I recall that when I
> switched to Gnome I had some trouble with this (as in, it just didn't
> work, generally, even if the relevant app allowed you to specify
> --geometry or similar), but AFAICT Gnome has long held to the notion
> that Gnome Gnows better than you do how you should run your apps, so
> when using Gnome all bets are off.

Well, I am running GNOME 3 on top of X11. I didn't preselect or configure
any windows positioning in there.
My application that I'm developing will be connecting to the database to
pull some data. When I tried to connect to Sybase ASE with their own ODBC driver
the dialog that asks for credentials shows up in the center of the screen.
And this is the position where (and I hope 99.99% of people) expect it
to show up.
Hopefully this number (99.99%) does include Mr. Angelico,.

But my application is maximized right now, so maybe it is centered on
the main frame.

Anyway that dialog (TLW) is centered.

Thank you.


>
> --
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

From rosuav at gmail.com  Wed Jan 13 20:27:19 2021
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Thu, 14 Jan 2021 12:27:19 +1100
Subject: Application window geometry specifier
In-Reply-To: <20210114003151.GC31888@bladeshadow.org>
References: <alpine.LNX.2.20.2101120831280.12379@salmo.appl-ecosys.com>
 <CAPTjJmpqG21j2rVTqUJg_-=_6RWg50rnUi_8KdDc3kSHpzO6Ng@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+FnnTwS8A2zQkSJiJVL3Toid+0Xg_bm90mTKArxC-qY1X62SA@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.LNX.2.20.2101120938140.12379@salmo.appl-ecosys.com>
 <rtkqkr$l9j$1@ciao.gmane.io> <20210114003151.GC31888@bladeshadow.org>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmrh6zcvUhsHfhq77xm-Ah1O+8-EXf5ZHb9+zrAZVNknmw@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Jan 14, 2021 at 12:11 PM Python <python at bladeshadow.org> wrote:
>
> On Tue, Jan 12, 2021 at 06:43:39PM -0000, Grant Edwards wrote:
> > And those X11 users will swear at you if you override their window
> > managers configured window placement. Application code should not care
> > about or try to control window geometry. Period.
>
> I think this is just plain wrong.

I love how "I think" is allowed to trump decades of usability research.

ChrisA

From ikorot01 at gmail.com  Wed Jan 13 20:29:20 2021
From: ikorot01 at gmail.com (Igor Korot)
Date: Wed, 13 Jan 2021 19:29:20 -0600
Subject: Application window geometry specifier
In-Reply-To: <20210114011624.GE31888@bladeshadow.org>
References: <CA+FnnTz2=E=aiFaQNucmuL=d5Y9LE12Atz=BP6oQo0iH47kvqQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPTjJmoQH4jFKfoBHSGFdY-DrLWPo_H-fAhSBOSMvs2KhUEW=A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+FnnTyCULGvpwwYcFVYY5fkmbrHmR_VXX9nPpr6+JYT-awMAA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPTjJmqpikubYzKQ681WzqQgX7dBBg=+L4_816CteStU8zXdiA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+FnnTz9iXt=mc+GNV0TU2KDtbcy8ap1QqpjimFqJGML_-W+0g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPTjJmoMz4oonV1y1fdyd-Ts3M7J1SiAd=vhd6WpSkFin+cVCQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+FnnTz4+9ptq7roS42dt1drmDZ=H0vzYw7=hy9NHNShfVDf_w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPTjJmrk1CQZQSgCdmGdWrSXfpdWOOHngVQKEvjyMXiW+-NbQQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20210114005058.GD31888@bladeshadow.org>
 <CAPTjJmq+K8zB_Ut3NARPWgWV2jae=T-GkXRqzvH0JaQb=7qieQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20210114011624.GE31888@bladeshadow.org>
Message-ID: <CA+FnnTz1tAcJFbe=OxbM--Eoveg_sbj189OL17knrdf3D_vJwQ@mail.gmail.com>

Hi,

On Wed, Jan 13, 2021 at 7:20 PM Python <python at bladeshadow.org> wrote:
>
> On Thu, Jan 14, 2021 at 11:58:34AM +1100, Chris Angelico wrote:
> > On Thu, Jan 14, 2021 at 11:53 AM Python <python at bladeshadow.org> wrote:
> > Have you actually done any research by (a) asking people what they
> > actually prefer, and better still (b) silently watching over someone's
> > shoulder and seeing which one makes people more productive?
>
> As I said, though it's been a long while, I was actually a user of
> such applications myself.  So I can tell you quite authoritatively
> that in those kinds of apps, *I* absolutely prefer that the app
> remember where my windows are and what's in them, no contest.  And I
> would always use them alongside a slew of other apps--web browsers,
> text editors, mail clients, etc... most likely on a separate desktop,
> if I wasn't mobile, but necessarily on the same one if I was.
>
> > The results will differ based on whether the user in question has
> > basically just one primary application (an IDE, or some gigantic app
> > like Adobe PhotoShop) that they spend all their time in
>
> OK, so you admit that such apps do exist.  But I guess you knew that
> the OP is not writing that sort of application, and know who its
> intended audience is, and their work habits and preferences...

Unfortunately, this is how Wayland behaves right now.

When I tried to complain they said that saving/restoring perspective
is in the works.

But I sure hope that when people will switch to Wayland that DB
credentials dialog I was talking about
in the previous reply will still be positioned on the center of the screen.
Or even better - on the center of the main frame and not somewhere else.

Thank you.

>
> --
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

From rosuav at gmail.com  Wed Jan 13 20:29:39 2021
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Thu, 14 Jan 2021 12:29:39 +1100
Subject: Application window geometry specifier
In-Reply-To: <20210114011624.GE31888@bladeshadow.org>
References: <CA+FnnTz2=E=aiFaQNucmuL=d5Y9LE12Atz=BP6oQo0iH47kvqQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPTjJmoQH4jFKfoBHSGFdY-DrLWPo_H-fAhSBOSMvs2KhUEW=A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+FnnTyCULGvpwwYcFVYY5fkmbrHmR_VXX9nPpr6+JYT-awMAA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPTjJmqpikubYzKQ681WzqQgX7dBBg=+L4_816CteStU8zXdiA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+FnnTz9iXt=mc+GNV0TU2KDtbcy8ap1QqpjimFqJGML_-W+0g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPTjJmoMz4oonV1y1fdyd-Ts3M7J1SiAd=vhd6WpSkFin+cVCQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+FnnTz4+9ptq7roS42dt1drmDZ=H0vzYw7=hy9NHNShfVDf_w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPTjJmrk1CQZQSgCdmGdWrSXfpdWOOHngVQKEvjyMXiW+-NbQQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20210114005058.GD31888@bladeshadow.org>
 <CAPTjJmq+K8zB_Ut3NARPWgWV2jae=T-GkXRqzvH0JaQb=7qieQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20210114011624.GE31888@bladeshadow.org>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmpjg5wp8hv2Le8oBGBuo6G-0+bFT8DptiyKMd_TNAgQBg@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Jan 14, 2021 at 12:18 PM Python <python at bladeshadow.org> wrote:
> > The results will differ based on whether the user in question has
> > basically just one primary application (an IDE, or some gigantic app
> > like Adobe PhotoShop) that they spend all their time in
>
> OK, so you admit that such apps do exist.  But I guess you knew that
> the OP is not writing that sort of application, and know who its
> intended audience is, and their work habits and preferences...
>

The difference isn't in what's best, but in what people are willing to
accept. Just because people roll over and accept the latest Windows,
the latest Mac OS, the latest PhotoShop, the latest Gmail, the latest
whatever else, doesn't mean that (a) they actually like it, nor (b)
it's actually better. (Which are independent.)

When someone spends all their life in a single app, they're more
likely to learn its particular way of doing things and assume that
that's "correct". But that doesn't make it so.

ChrisA

From ikorot01 at gmail.com  Wed Jan 13 20:39:13 2021
From: ikorot01 at gmail.com (Igor Korot)
Date: Wed, 13 Jan 2021 19:39:13 -0600
Subject: Application window geometry specifier
In-Reply-To: <CAPTjJmpjg5wp8hv2Le8oBGBuo6G-0+bFT8DptiyKMd_TNAgQBg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CA+FnnTz2=E=aiFaQNucmuL=d5Y9LE12Atz=BP6oQo0iH47kvqQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPTjJmoQH4jFKfoBHSGFdY-DrLWPo_H-fAhSBOSMvs2KhUEW=A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+FnnTyCULGvpwwYcFVYY5fkmbrHmR_VXX9nPpr6+JYT-awMAA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPTjJmqpikubYzKQ681WzqQgX7dBBg=+L4_816CteStU8zXdiA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+FnnTz9iXt=mc+GNV0TU2KDtbcy8ap1QqpjimFqJGML_-W+0g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPTjJmoMz4oonV1y1fdyd-Ts3M7J1SiAd=vhd6WpSkFin+cVCQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+FnnTz4+9ptq7roS42dt1drmDZ=H0vzYw7=hy9NHNShfVDf_w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPTjJmrk1CQZQSgCdmGdWrSXfpdWOOHngVQKEvjyMXiW+-NbQQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20210114005058.GD31888@bladeshadow.org>
 <CAPTjJmq+K8zB_Ut3NARPWgWV2jae=T-GkXRqzvH0JaQb=7qieQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20210114011624.GE31888@bladeshadow.org>
 <CAPTjJmpjg5wp8hv2Le8oBGBuo6G-0+bFT8DptiyKMd_TNAgQBg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CA+FnnTywbRv3SOciCYp_ctkWtvh-FWyNLhBqL_s00o58BX7snQ@mail.gmail.com>

Chris,

On Wed, Jan 13, 2021 at 7:33 PM Chris Angelico <rosuav at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> On Thu, Jan 14, 2021 at 12:18 PM Python <python at bladeshadow.org> wrote:
> > > The results will differ based on whether the user in question has
> > > basically just one primary application (an IDE, or some gigantic app
> > > like Adobe PhotoShop) that they spend all their time in
> >
> > OK, so you admit that such apps do exist.  But I guess you knew that
> > the OP is not writing that sort of application, and know who its
> > intended audience is, and their work habits and preferences...
> >
>
> The difference isn't in what's best, but in what people are willing to
> accept. Just because people roll over and accept the latest Windows,
> the latest Mac OS, the latest PhotoShop, the latest Gmail, the latest
> whatever else, doesn't mean that (a) they actually like it, nor (b)
> it's actually better. (Which are independent.)
>
> When someone spends all their life in a single app, they're more
> likely to learn its particular way of doing things and assume that
> that's "correct". But that doesn't make it so.

Correct.
But when that same person goes to a different company where a
different application
is used, he expects it to behave the same. Because the functionality of such
application is the same.

Wouldn't you?

It is called association.

"I was working with Application A. Now I'm working with application
AA. And application
AA behaves very weirdly."

Thank you.

>
> ChrisA
> --
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

From rosuav at gmail.com  Wed Jan 13 20:42:38 2021
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Thu, 14 Jan 2021 12:42:38 +1100
Subject: Application window geometry specifier
In-Reply-To: <CA+FnnTywbRv3SOciCYp_ctkWtvh-FWyNLhBqL_s00o58BX7snQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CA+FnnTz2=E=aiFaQNucmuL=d5Y9LE12Atz=BP6oQo0iH47kvqQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPTjJmoQH4jFKfoBHSGFdY-DrLWPo_H-fAhSBOSMvs2KhUEW=A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+FnnTyCULGvpwwYcFVYY5fkmbrHmR_VXX9nPpr6+JYT-awMAA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPTjJmqpikubYzKQ681WzqQgX7dBBg=+L4_816CteStU8zXdiA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+FnnTz9iXt=mc+GNV0TU2KDtbcy8ap1QqpjimFqJGML_-W+0g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPTjJmoMz4oonV1y1fdyd-Ts3M7J1SiAd=vhd6WpSkFin+cVCQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+FnnTz4+9ptq7roS42dt1drmDZ=H0vzYw7=hy9NHNShfVDf_w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPTjJmrk1CQZQSgCdmGdWrSXfpdWOOHngVQKEvjyMXiW+-NbQQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20210114005058.GD31888@bladeshadow.org>
 <CAPTjJmq+K8zB_Ut3NARPWgWV2jae=T-GkXRqzvH0JaQb=7qieQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20210114011624.GE31888@bladeshadow.org>
 <CAPTjJmpjg5wp8hv2Le8oBGBuo6G-0+bFT8DptiyKMd_TNAgQBg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+FnnTywbRv3SOciCYp_ctkWtvh-FWyNLhBqL_s00o58BX7snQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmod3TO+KgdZSGZoC+QPE1CDBi92iKm6vTz1NLhN3Jgdeg@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Jan 14, 2021 at 12:39 PM Igor Korot <ikorot01 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Chris,
>
> On Wed, Jan 13, 2021 at 7:33 PM Chris Angelico <rosuav at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > On Thu, Jan 14, 2021 at 12:18 PM Python <python at bladeshadow.org> wrote:
> > > > The results will differ based on whether the user in question has
> > > > basically just one primary application (an IDE, or some gigantic app
> > > > like Adobe PhotoShop) that they spend all their time in
> > >
> > > OK, so you admit that such apps do exist.  But I guess you knew that
> > > the OP is not writing that sort of application, and know who its
> > > intended audience is, and their work habits and preferences...
> > >
> >
> > The difference isn't in what's best, but in what people are willing to
> > accept. Just because people roll over and accept the latest Windows,
> > the latest Mac OS, the latest PhotoShop, the latest Gmail, the latest
> > whatever else, doesn't mean that (a) they actually like it, nor (b)
> > it's actually better. (Which are independent.)
> >
> > When someone spends all their life in a single app, they're more
> > likely to learn its particular way of doing things and assume that
> > that's "correct". But that doesn't make it so.
>
> Correct.
> But when that same person goes to a different company where a
> different application
> is used, he expects it to behave the same. Because the functionality of such
> application is the same.
>
> Wouldn't you?
>
> It is called association.
>
> "I was working with Application A. Now I'm working with application
> AA. And application
> AA behaves very weirdly."
>

Yes, association is correct.

"I was working with Application A. Now I'm working with Application B.
And it behaves very weirdly."

It's entirely possible that App A was the bad one, and unfortunately,
that does happen. But this is exactly why it's better to follow the
standards. Unless you are so egotistical that you think your users
won't need *any* other applications in their lives, follow the
standards.

ChrisA

From greg.ewing at canterbury.ac.nz  Wed Jan 13 20:48:44 2021
From: greg.ewing at canterbury.ac.nz (Greg Ewing)
Date: Thu, 14 Jan 2021 14:48:44 +1300
Subject: Application window geometry specifier
In-Reply-To: <mailman.752.1610585927.7193.python-list@python.org>
References: <alpine.LNX.2.20.2101120938140.12379@salmo.appl-ecosys.com>
 <rtkqkr$l9j$1@ciao.gmane.io>
 <CA+FnnTz2=E=aiFaQNucmuL=d5Y9LE12Atz=BP6oQo0iH47kvqQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPTjJmoQH4jFKfoBHSGFdY-DrLWPo_H-fAhSBOSMvs2KhUEW=A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+FnnTyCULGvpwwYcFVYY5fkmbrHmR_VXX9nPpr6+JYT-awMAA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPTjJmqpikubYzKQ681WzqQgX7dBBg=+L4_816CteStU8zXdiA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+FnnTz9iXt=mc+GNV0TU2KDtbcy8ap1QqpjimFqJGML_-W+0g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPTjJmoMz4oonV1y1fdyd-Ts3M7J1SiAd=vhd6WpSkFin+cVCQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+FnnTz4+9ptq7roS42dt1drmDZ=H0vzYw7=hy9NHNShfVDf_w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPTjJmrk1CQZQSgCdmGdWrSXfpdWOOHngVQKEvjyMXiW+-NbQQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20210114005058.GD31888@bladeshadow.org>
 <CAPTjJmq+K8zB_Ut3NARPWgWV2jae=T-GkXRqzvH0JaQb=7qieQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.752.1610585927.7193.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <45be434d-f22e-0ef5-cd7e-4488f6b7c09f@canterbury.ac.nz>

On 14/01/21 1:58 pm, Chris Angelico wrote:
> On Thu, Jan 14, 2021 at 11:53 AM Python <python at bladeshadow.org> wrote:
>>
>> I believe it is or was quite common
>> for large, integrated applications like DAWs, graphical design
>> software, etc. to remember where you placed your various floating
>> toolbars and add-ons

Not just large, integrated applications. If I open Intaglio
(a modestly sized drawing app) on my Mac right now, the palettes
are all where I left them last time.

> The results will differ based on whether the user in question has
> basically just one primary application (an IDE, or some gigantic app
> like Adobe PhotoShop) that they spend all their time in, or if they're
> using myriad different applications. Especially in the latter case, it
> is far FAR better to put control in the user's hands

I don't follow. If the app is just remembering where the user
put things, then it *is* putting control in the user's hands.

And I don't see what difference it makes how many different apps
they use. Leaving things where the user put them seems like a good
idea regardless.

Ideally, the OS or window manager would do the remembering, but
if it doesn't provide such a facility, I don't see any harm in
allowing the app to *request* (not force) a certain position for
a window.

The app can of course abuse that privilege, but that's the fault
of the app, not the feature.

-- 
Greg

From greg.ewing at canterbury.ac.nz  Wed Jan 13 20:48:44 2021
From: greg.ewing at canterbury.ac.nz (Greg Ewing)
Date: Thu, 14 Jan 2021 14:48:44 +1300
Subject: Application window geometry specifier
In-Reply-To: <mailman.752.1610585927.7193.python-list@python.org>
References: <alpine.LNX.2.20.2101120938140.12379@salmo.appl-ecosys.com>
 <rtkqkr$l9j$1@ciao.gmane.io>
 <CA+FnnTz2=E=aiFaQNucmuL=d5Y9LE12Atz=BP6oQo0iH47kvqQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPTjJmoQH4jFKfoBHSGFdY-DrLWPo_H-fAhSBOSMvs2KhUEW=A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+FnnTyCULGvpwwYcFVYY5fkmbrHmR_VXX9nPpr6+JYT-awMAA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPTjJmqpikubYzKQ681WzqQgX7dBBg=+L4_816CteStU8zXdiA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+FnnTz9iXt=mc+GNV0TU2KDtbcy8ap1QqpjimFqJGML_-W+0g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPTjJmoMz4oonV1y1fdyd-Ts3M7J1SiAd=vhd6WpSkFin+cVCQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+FnnTz4+9ptq7roS42dt1drmDZ=H0vzYw7=hy9NHNShfVDf_w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPTjJmrk1CQZQSgCdmGdWrSXfpdWOOHngVQKEvjyMXiW+-NbQQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20210114005058.GD31888@bladeshadow.org>
 <CAPTjJmq+K8zB_Ut3NARPWgWV2jae=T-GkXRqzvH0JaQb=7qieQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.752.1610585927.7193.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <45be434d-f22e-0ef5-cd7e-4488f6b7c09f@canterbury.ac.nz>

On 14/01/21 1:58 pm, Chris Angelico wrote:
> On Thu, Jan 14, 2021 at 11:53 AM Python <python at bladeshadow.org> wrote:
>>
>> I believe it is or was quite common
>> for large, integrated applications like DAWs, graphical design
>> software, etc. to remember where you placed your various floating
>> toolbars and add-ons

Not just large, integrated applications. If I open Intaglio
(a modestly sized drawing app) on my Mac right now, the palettes
are all where I left them last time.

> The results will differ based on whether the user in question has
> basically just one primary application (an IDE, or some gigantic app
> like Adobe PhotoShop) that they spend all their time in, or if they're
> using myriad different applications. Especially in the latter case, it
> is far FAR better to put control in the user's hands

I don't follow. If the app is just remembering where the user
put things, then it *is* putting control in the user's hands.

And I don't see what difference it makes how many different apps
they use. Leaving things where the user put them seems like a good
idea regardless.

Ideally, the OS or window manager would do the remembering, but
if it doesn't provide such a facility, I don't see any harm in
allowing the app to *request* (not force) a certain position for
a window.

The app can of course abuse that privilege, but that's the fault
of the app, not the feature.

-- 
Greg

From python.list at tim.thechases.com  Wed Jan 13 20:35:02 2021
From: python.list at tim.thechases.com (Tim Chase)
Date: Wed, 13 Jan 2021 19:35:02 -0600
Subject: count consecutive elements
In-Reply-To: <slrnrvup10.dse.Bischoop@vimart.net>
References: <slrnrvup10.dse.Bischoop@vimart.net>
Message-ID: <20210113193502.7d2d778b@bigbox.attlocal.net>

On 2021-01-13 21:20, Bischoop wrote:
> I want to  to display a number or an alphabet which appears mostly
> consecutive in a given string or numbers or both
> Examples
> s= ' aabskaaabadcccc'
> output: c
> # c appears 4 consecutive times
>  8bbakebaoa
> output: b
> #b appears 2 consecutive times

I'd break the problem into two parts:

1) iterate over your thing (in this case, a string) and emit the item
and its correpsonding count of consecutive matches.

2) feed that into something that finds the longest run(s) output by
that.

So off the cuff, something like

  def consecutive_counter(seq):
      # I'm not sure if there's something
      # like this already in itertools
      cur = nada = object()
      count = 0
      for x in seq:
          if x == cur:
              count += 1
          else:
              if cur is not nada:
                  yield cur, count
              cur = x
              count = 1
      if cur is not nada:
          yield cur, count

  def longest(seq):
      results = []
      biggest = 0
      for item, count in seq:
          if count > biggest:
              results = [item]
              biggest = count
          elif count == biggest:
              results.append(item)
      return results, biggest

  for s in (
          "",
          "a",
          "aaa",
          "aaabbb",
          "aabskaaabadcccc",
          "aabskaaakkkkkbadcccc",
          ):
      print("Testing %r" % s)
      print(repr(longest(consecutive_counter(s))))

-tkc





From ikorot01 at gmail.com  Wed Jan 13 21:05:27 2021
From: ikorot01 at gmail.com (Igor Korot)
Date: Wed, 13 Jan 2021 20:05:27 -0600
Subject: Application window geometry specifier
In-Reply-To: <CAPTjJmod3TO+KgdZSGZoC+QPE1CDBi92iKm6vTz1NLhN3Jgdeg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CA+FnnTz2=E=aiFaQNucmuL=d5Y9LE12Atz=BP6oQo0iH47kvqQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPTjJmoQH4jFKfoBHSGFdY-DrLWPo_H-fAhSBOSMvs2KhUEW=A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+FnnTyCULGvpwwYcFVYY5fkmbrHmR_VXX9nPpr6+JYT-awMAA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPTjJmqpikubYzKQ681WzqQgX7dBBg=+L4_816CteStU8zXdiA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+FnnTz9iXt=mc+GNV0TU2KDtbcy8ap1QqpjimFqJGML_-W+0g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPTjJmoMz4oonV1y1fdyd-Ts3M7J1SiAd=vhd6WpSkFin+cVCQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+FnnTz4+9ptq7roS42dt1drmDZ=H0vzYw7=hy9NHNShfVDf_w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPTjJmrk1CQZQSgCdmGdWrSXfpdWOOHngVQKEvjyMXiW+-NbQQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20210114005058.GD31888@bladeshadow.org>
 <CAPTjJmq+K8zB_Ut3NARPWgWV2jae=T-GkXRqzvH0JaQb=7qieQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20210114011624.GE31888@bladeshadow.org>
 <CAPTjJmpjg5wp8hv2Le8oBGBuo6G-0+bFT8DptiyKMd_TNAgQBg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+FnnTywbRv3SOciCYp_ctkWtvh-FWyNLhBqL_s00o58BX7snQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPTjJmod3TO+KgdZSGZoC+QPE1CDBi92iKm6vTz1NLhN3Jgdeg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CA+FnnTwMexTX6Md10cedOmZL3az09rgsgxsJ+kgiHAH2cVxpRg@mail.gmail.com>

Chris,

On Wed, Jan 13, 2021 at 7:45 PM Chris Angelico <rosuav at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> On Thu, Jan 14, 2021 at 12:39 PM Igor Korot <ikorot01 at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > Chris,
> >
> > On Wed, Jan 13, 2021 at 7:33 PM Chris Angelico <rosuav at gmail.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > On Thu, Jan 14, 2021 at 12:18 PM Python <python at bladeshadow.org> wrote:
> > > > > The results will differ based on whether the user in question has
> > > > > basically just one primary application (an IDE, or some gigantic app
> > > > > like Adobe PhotoShop) that they spend all their time in
> > > >
> > > > OK, so you admit that such apps do exist.  But I guess you knew that
> > > > the OP is not writing that sort of application, and know who its
> > > > intended audience is, and their work habits and preferences...
> > > >
> > >
> > > The difference isn't in what's best, but in what people are willing to
> > > accept. Just because people roll over and accept the latest Windows,
> > > the latest Mac OS, the latest PhotoShop, the latest Gmail, the latest
> > > whatever else, doesn't mean that (a) they actually like it, nor (b)
> > > it's actually better. (Which are independent.)
> > >
> > > When someone spends all their life in a single app, they're more
> > > likely to learn its particular way of doing things and assume that
> > > that's "correct". But that doesn't make it so.
> >
> > Correct.
> > But when that same person goes to a different company where a
> > different application
> > is used, he expects it to behave the same. Because the functionality of such
> > application is the same.
> >
> > Wouldn't you?
> >
> > It is called association.
> >
> > "I was working with Application A. Now I'm working with application
> > AA. And application
> > AA behaves very weirdly."
> >
>
> Yes, association is correct.
>
> "I was working with Application A. Now I'm working with Application B.
> And it behaves very weirdly."
>
> It's entirely possible that App A was the bad one, and unfortunately,
> that does happen. But this is exactly why it's better to follow the
> standards. Unless you are so egotistical that you think your users
> won't need *any* other applications in their lives, follow the
> standards.

And you still don't say anything about my DB example.

Normal DB application has to place credentials dialog center
screen or center frame, depending when it shows.

Otherwise they will popup all over the place wrecking havoc
with the users.

And so its better to show it centered, just like in my example
above. And as I said - I hope you are inside this 99.99% of users/
developers.

Thank you.

>
> ChrisA
> --
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

From rosuav at gmail.com  Wed Jan 13 21:12:31 2021
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Thu, 14 Jan 2021 13:12:31 +1100
Subject: Application window geometry specifier
In-Reply-To: <CA+FnnTwMexTX6Md10cedOmZL3az09rgsgxsJ+kgiHAH2cVxpRg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CA+FnnTz2=E=aiFaQNucmuL=d5Y9LE12Atz=BP6oQo0iH47kvqQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPTjJmoQH4jFKfoBHSGFdY-DrLWPo_H-fAhSBOSMvs2KhUEW=A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+FnnTyCULGvpwwYcFVYY5fkmbrHmR_VXX9nPpr6+JYT-awMAA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPTjJmqpikubYzKQ681WzqQgX7dBBg=+L4_816CteStU8zXdiA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+FnnTz9iXt=mc+GNV0TU2KDtbcy8ap1QqpjimFqJGML_-W+0g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPTjJmoMz4oonV1y1fdyd-Ts3M7J1SiAd=vhd6WpSkFin+cVCQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+FnnTz4+9ptq7roS42dt1drmDZ=H0vzYw7=hy9NHNShfVDf_w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPTjJmrk1CQZQSgCdmGdWrSXfpdWOOHngVQKEvjyMXiW+-NbQQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20210114005058.GD31888@bladeshadow.org>
 <CAPTjJmq+K8zB_Ut3NARPWgWV2jae=T-GkXRqzvH0JaQb=7qieQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20210114011624.GE31888@bladeshadow.org>
 <CAPTjJmpjg5wp8hv2Le8oBGBuo6G-0+bFT8DptiyKMd_TNAgQBg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+FnnTywbRv3SOciCYp_ctkWtvh-FWyNLhBqL_s00o58BX7snQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPTjJmod3TO+KgdZSGZoC+QPE1CDBi92iKm6vTz1NLhN3Jgdeg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+FnnTwMexTX6Md10cedOmZL3az09rgsgxsJ+kgiHAH2cVxpRg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmoHeaAHUA8bSWcA-XrNnxmp4gdqGTFPL56miG+NcSrqqg@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Jan 14, 2021 at 1:05 PM Igor Korot <ikorot01 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Chris,
>
> On Wed, Jan 13, 2021 at 7:45 PM Chris Angelico <rosuav at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > On Thu, Jan 14, 2021 at 12:39 PM Igor Korot <ikorot01 at gmail.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > Chris,
> > >
> > > On Wed, Jan 13, 2021 at 7:33 PM Chris Angelico <rosuav at gmail.com> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > On Thu, Jan 14, 2021 at 12:18 PM Python <python at bladeshadow.org> wrote:
> > > > > > The results will differ based on whether the user in question has
> > > > > > basically just one primary application (an IDE, or some gigantic app
> > > > > > like Adobe PhotoShop) that they spend all their time in
> > > > >
> > > > > OK, so you admit that such apps do exist.  But I guess you knew that
> > > > > the OP is not writing that sort of application, and know who its
> > > > > intended audience is, and their work habits and preferences...
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > The difference isn't in what's best, but in what people are willing to
> > > > accept. Just because people roll over and accept the latest Windows,
> > > > the latest Mac OS, the latest PhotoShop, the latest Gmail, the latest
> > > > whatever else, doesn't mean that (a) they actually like it, nor (b)
> > > > it's actually better. (Which are independent.)
> > > >
> > > > When someone spends all their life in a single app, they're more
> > > > likely to learn its particular way of doing things and assume that
> > > > that's "correct". But that doesn't make it so.
> > >
> > > Correct.
> > > But when that same person goes to a different company where a
> > > different application
> > > is used, he expects it to behave the same. Because the functionality of such
> > > application is the same.
> > >
> > > Wouldn't you?
> > >
> > > It is called association.
> > >
> > > "I was working with Application A. Now I'm working with application
> > > AA. And application
> > > AA behaves very weirdly."
> > >
> >
> > Yes, association is correct.
> >
> > "I was working with Application A. Now I'm working with Application B.
> > And it behaves very weirdly."
> >
> > It's entirely possible that App A was the bad one, and unfortunately,
> > that does happen. But this is exactly why it's better to follow the
> > standards. Unless you are so egotistical that you think your users
> > won't need *any* other applications in their lives, follow the
> > standards.
>
> And you still don't say anything about my DB example.
>
> Normal DB application has to place credentials dialog center
> screen or center frame, depending when it shows.
>
> Otherwise they will popup all over the place wrecking havoc
> with the users.
>
> And so its better to show it centered, just like in my example
> above. And as I said - I hope you are inside this 99.99% of users/
> developers.
>

And isn't that exactly where the WM would put it by default too? The
difference is, if the user wishes it to be somewhere else *for all
applications*, s/he can reconfigure the WM, but it's an absolute pain
if all these kinds of apps have to be independently reconfigured. The
obvious defaults are obvious to the creators of WMs even more than app
developers, AND you're not forcing people into your personal
preferences.

ChrisA

From drsalists at gmail.com  Wed Jan 13 21:20:11 2021
From: drsalists at gmail.com (Dan Stromberg)
Date: Wed, 13 Jan 2021 18:20:11 -0800
Subject: count consecutive elements
In-Reply-To: <20210113193502.7d2d778b@bigbox.attlocal.net>
References: <slrnrvup10.dse.Bischoop@vimart.net>
 <20210113193502.7d2d778b@bigbox.attlocal.net>
Message-ID: <CAGGBd_pokcB9f2BUYCT4rOW3HP5QeOp8TKS0SYLyYtQL8y2Vvw@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Jan 13, 2021 at 5:59 PM Tim Chase <python.list at tim.thechases.com>
wrote:

> On 2021-01-13 21:20, Bischoop wrote:
> > I want to  to display a number or an alphabet which appears mostly
> > consecutive in a given string or numbers or both
> > Examples
> > s= ' aabskaaabadcccc'
> > output: c
> > # c appears 4 consecutive times
> >  8bbakebaoa
> > output: b
> > #b appears 2 consecutive times
>

I'm kind of partial to:

import collections
import typing


def get_longest(string: str) -> typing.Tuple[int, str]:
    """Get the longest run of a single consecutive character."""
    dict_: typing.DefaultDict[str, int] = collections.defaultdict(int)
    for left_ch, right_ch in zip(string, string[1:]):
        if left_ch == right_ch:
            dict_[left_ch] += 1

    maximum = max((value, key) for key, value in dict_.items())

    return maximum

HTH

From robertvstepp at gmail.com  Wed Jan 13 21:25:28 2021
From: robertvstepp at gmail.com (boB Stepp)
Date: Wed, 13 Jan 2021 20:25:28 -0600
Subject: Application window geometry specifier
In-Reply-To: <CAPTjJmrh6zcvUhsHfhq77xm-Ah1O+8-EXf5ZHb9+zrAZVNknmw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <alpine.LNX.2.20.2101120831280.12379@salmo.appl-ecosys.com>
 <CAPTjJmpqG21j2rVTqUJg_-=_6RWg50rnUi_8KdDc3kSHpzO6Ng@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+FnnTwS8A2zQkSJiJVL3Toid+0Xg_bm90mTKArxC-qY1X62SA@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.LNX.2.20.2101120938140.12379@salmo.appl-ecosys.com>
 <rtkqkr$l9j$1@ciao.gmane.io> <20210114003151.GC31888@bladeshadow.org>
 <CAPTjJmrh6zcvUhsHfhq77xm-Ah1O+8-EXf5ZHb9+zrAZVNknmw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CANDiX9+-QqQT5wRhtdBJ3GCEa8Hr+D2NCR_X3rUm2dJRJ2Ab-Q@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Jan 13, 2021 at 7:28 PM Chris Angelico <rosuav at gmail.com> wrote:

> I love how "I think" is allowed to trump decades of usability research.

Can you recommend a good reference for someone relatively new to GUI
programming that is based on such research?  Book or web reference
would be fine.

Cheers!
boB

From DomainAdmin at DancesWithMice.info  Wed Jan 13 22:21:30 2021
From: DomainAdmin at DancesWithMice.info (David L Neil)
Date: Thu, 14 Jan 2021 16:21:30 +1300
Subject: Application window geometry specifier
In-Reply-To: <CANDiX9+-QqQT5wRhtdBJ3GCEa8Hr+D2NCR_X3rUm2dJRJ2Ab-Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <alpine.LNX.2.20.2101120831280.12379@salmo.appl-ecosys.com>
 <CAPTjJmpqG21j2rVTqUJg_-=_6RWg50rnUi_8KdDc3kSHpzO6Ng@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+FnnTwS8A2zQkSJiJVL3Toid+0Xg_bm90mTKArxC-qY1X62SA@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.LNX.2.20.2101120938140.12379@salmo.appl-ecosys.com>
 <rtkqkr$l9j$1@ciao.gmane.io> <20210114003151.GC31888@bladeshadow.org>
 <CAPTjJmrh6zcvUhsHfhq77xm-Ah1O+8-EXf5ZHb9+zrAZVNknmw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANDiX9+-QqQT5wRhtdBJ3GCEa8Hr+D2NCR_X3rUm2dJRJ2Ab-Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <0250463f-c22b-43b9-c7cc-4be7f39e87b0@DancesWithMice.info>

On 14/01/2021 15.25, boB Stepp wrote:
> On Wed, Jan 13, 2021 at 7:28 PM Chris Angelico <rosuav at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
>> I love how "I think" is allowed to trump decades of usability research.

I'm just pleased that @Chris has found love!
(not detracting from the point though)


> Can you recommend a good reference for someone relatively new to GUI
> programming that is based on such research?  Book or web reference
> would be fine.

Most of my training-materials (certainly in this topic) are web-based -
but the ideas are also common to Python.


Nielsen-Norman Group do a lot of work in UX and offer a regular
newsletter which is usually a good way to make the brain-cells work for
their living: https://www.nngroup.com/

eg https://www.nngroup.com/articles/usability-101-introduction-to-usability/


A more applied view, courtesy of the New Zealand Government:
https://www.digital.govt.nz/standards-and-guidance/nz-government-web-standards/web-usability-standard-1-3/


Some become confused between the two terms: Accessibility and Usability.

Here's what the boss says:
https://www.w3.org/WAI/fundamentals/accessibility-usability-inclusion/

This article clearly explains each and then offers a comparison.
https://www.telerik.com/blogs/web-accessibility-vs-usability


If you really want to dig-down, I know for-sure that IBM, Microsoft,
Apple (and presumably others) have compiled style-guides about how
various GUIs should work, starting from really basic matters such as
when to use radio-buttons and when check-boxes. I can't tell you if the
gtk, qt, or wx people offer something similar...
-- 
Regards =dn

From PythonList at DancesWithMice.info  Wed Jan 13 22:22:50 2021
From: PythonList at DancesWithMice.info (dn)
Date: Thu, 14 Jan 2021 16:22:50 +1300
Subject: Application window geometry specifier
In-Reply-To: <CANDiX9+-QqQT5wRhtdBJ3GCEa8Hr+D2NCR_X3rUm2dJRJ2Ab-Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <alpine.LNX.2.20.2101120831280.12379@salmo.appl-ecosys.com>
 <CAPTjJmpqG21j2rVTqUJg_-=_6RWg50rnUi_8KdDc3kSHpzO6Ng@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+FnnTwS8A2zQkSJiJVL3Toid+0Xg_bm90mTKArxC-qY1X62SA@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.LNX.2.20.2101120938140.12379@salmo.appl-ecosys.com>
 <rtkqkr$l9j$1@ciao.gmane.io> <20210114003151.GC31888@bladeshadow.org>
 <CAPTjJmrh6zcvUhsHfhq77xm-Ah1O+8-EXf5ZHb9+zrAZVNknmw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANDiX9+-QqQT5wRhtdBJ3GCEa8Hr+D2NCR_X3rUm2dJRJ2Ab-Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <e338597e-1d04-ea11-6968-b61a36c9762c@DancesWithMice.info>

On 14/01/2021 15.25, boB Stepp wrote:
> On Wed, Jan 13, 2021 at 7:28 PM Chris Angelico <rosuav at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
>> I love how "I think" is allowed to trump decades of usability research.

I'm just pleased that @Chris has found love!
(not detracting from the point though)


> Can you recommend a good reference for someone relatively new to GUI
> programming that is based on such research?  Book or web reference
> would be fine.

Most of my training-materials (certainly in this topic) are web-based -
but the ideas are also common to Python.


Nielsen-Norman Group do a lot of work in UX and offer a regular
newsletter which is usually a good way to make the brain-cells work for
their living: https://www.nngroup.com/

eg https://www.nngroup.com/articles/usability-101-introduction-to-usability/


A more applied view, courtesy of the New Zealand Government:
https://www.digital.govt.nz/standards-and-guidance/nz-government-web-standards/web-usability-standard-1-3/


Some become confused between the two terms: Accessibility and Usability.

Here's what the boss says:
https://www.w3.org/WAI/fundamentals/accessibility-usability-inclusion/

This article clearly explains each and then offers a comparison.
https://www.telerik.com/blogs/web-accessibility-vs-usability


If you really want to dig-down, I know for-sure that IBM, Microsoft,
Apple (and presumably others) have compiled style-guides about how
various GUIs should work, starting from really basic matters such as
when to use radio-buttons and when check-boxes. I can't tell you if the
gtk, qt, or wx people offer something similar...
-- 
Regards =dn

From ikorot01 at gmail.com  Wed Jan 13 22:39:49 2021
From: ikorot01 at gmail.com (Igor Korot)
Date: Wed, 13 Jan 2021 21:39:49 -0600
Subject: Application window geometry specifier
In-Reply-To: <CAPTjJmoHeaAHUA8bSWcA-XrNnxmp4gdqGTFPL56miG+NcSrqqg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CA+FnnTz2=E=aiFaQNucmuL=d5Y9LE12Atz=BP6oQo0iH47kvqQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPTjJmoQH4jFKfoBHSGFdY-DrLWPo_H-fAhSBOSMvs2KhUEW=A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+FnnTyCULGvpwwYcFVYY5fkmbrHmR_VXX9nPpr6+JYT-awMAA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPTjJmqpikubYzKQ681WzqQgX7dBBg=+L4_816CteStU8zXdiA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+FnnTz9iXt=mc+GNV0TU2KDtbcy8ap1QqpjimFqJGML_-W+0g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPTjJmoMz4oonV1y1fdyd-Ts3M7J1SiAd=vhd6WpSkFin+cVCQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+FnnTz4+9ptq7roS42dt1drmDZ=H0vzYw7=hy9NHNShfVDf_w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPTjJmrk1CQZQSgCdmGdWrSXfpdWOOHngVQKEvjyMXiW+-NbQQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20210114005058.GD31888@bladeshadow.org>
 <CAPTjJmq+K8zB_Ut3NARPWgWV2jae=T-GkXRqzvH0JaQb=7qieQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20210114011624.GE31888@bladeshadow.org>
 <CAPTjJmpjg5wp8hv2Le8oBGBuo6G-0+bFT8DptiyKMd_TNAgQBg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+FnnTywbRv3SOciCYp_ctkWtvh-FWyNLhBqL_s00o58BX7snQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPTjJmod3TO+KgdZSGZoC+QPE1CDBi92iKm6vTz1NLhN3Jgdeg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+FnnTwMexTX6Md10cedOmZL3az09rgsgxsJ+kgiHAH2cVxpRg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPTjJmoHeaAHUA8bSWcA-XrNnxmp4gdqGTFPL56miG+NcSrqqg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CA+FnnTwVDsH7xNchFwC+R=ZYps-s5PiwH8u+3NMyNt3YqhmayA@mail.gmail.com>

Chris,

On Wed, Jan 13, 2021 at 8:12 PM Chris Angelico <rosuav at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> On Thu, Jan 14, 2021 at 1:05 PM Igor Korot <ikorot01 at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > Chris,
> >
> > On Wed, Jan 13, 2021 at 7:45 PM Chris Angelico <rosuav at gmail.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > On Thu, Jan 14, 2021 at 12:39 PM Igor Korot <ikorot01 at gmail.com> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Chris,
> > > >
> > > > On Wed, Jan 13, 2021 at 7:33 PM Chris Angelico <rosuav at gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > On Thu, Jan 14, 2021 at 12:18 PM Python <python at bladeshadow.org> wrote:
> > > > > > > The results will differ based on whether the user in question has
> > > > > > > basically just one primary application (an IDE, or some gigantic app
> > > > > > > like Adobe PhotoShop) that they spend all their time in
> > > > > >
> > > > > > OK, so you admit that such apps do exist.  But I guess you knew that
> > > > > > the OP is not writing that sort of application, and know who its
> > > > > > intended audience is, and their work habits and preferences...
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > The difference isn't in what's best, but in what people are willing to
> > > > > accept. Just because people roll over and accept the latest Windows,
> > > > > the latest Mac OS, the latest PhotoShop, the latest Gmail, the latest
> > > > > whatever else, doesn't mean that (a) they actually like it, nor (b)
> > > > > it's actually better. (Which are independent.)
> > > > >
> > > > > When someone spends all their life in a single app, they're more
> > > > > likely to learn its particular way of doing things and assume that
> > > > > that's "correct". But that doesn't make it so.
> > > >
> > > > Correct.
> > > > But when that same person goes to a different company where a
> > > > different application
> > > > is used, he expects it to behave the same. Because the functionality of such
> > > > application is the same.
> > > >
> > > > Wouldn't you?
> > > >
> > > > It is called association.
> > > >
> > > > "I was working with Application A. Now I'm working with application
> > > > AA. And application
> > > > AA behaves very weirdly."
> > > >
> > >
> > > Yes, association is correct.
> > >
> > > "I was working with Application A. Now I'm working with Application B.
> > > And it behaves very weirdly."
> > >
> > > It's entirely possible that App A was the bad one, and unfortunately,
> > > that does happen. But this is exactly why it's better to follow the
> > > standards. Unless you are so egotistical that you think your users
> > > won't need *any* other applications in their lives, follow the
> > > standards.
> >
> > And you still don't say anything about my DB example.
> >
> > Normal DB application has to place credentials dialog center
> > screen or center frame, depending when it shows.
> >
> > Otherwise they will popup all over the place wrecking havoc
> > with the users.
> >
> > And so its better to show it centered, just like in my example
> > above. And as I said - I hope you are inside this 99.99% of users/
> > developers.
> >
>
> And isn't that exactly where the WM would put it by default too? The
> difference is, if the user wishes it to be somewhere else *for all
> applications*, s/he can reconfigure the WM, but it's an absolute pain
> if all these kinds of apps have to be independently reconfigured. The
> obvious defaults are obvious to the creators of WMs even more than app
> developers, AND you're not forcing people into your personal
> preferences.

I don't know. Do you?
Are you absolutely sure 100% it will put it there?
Especially by default?

Now here is the more interesting question:
if I create such a dialog (meaning it will not be pulled from external
library) what will happen?
Can you guarantee that my dialog will be placed accordingly
and if I call "dlg.Center()" it won't be ignored?

Thank you.

>
> ChrisA

From python at bladeshadow.org  Wed Jan 13 22:41:26 2021
From: python at bladeshadow.org (Python)
Date: Wed, 13 Jan 2021 21:41:26 -0600
Subject: Application window geometry specifier
In-Reply-To: <CAPTjJmrh6zcvUhsHfhq77xm-Ah1O+8-EXf5ZHb9+zrAZVNknmw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <alpine.LNX.2.20.2101120831280.12379@salmo.appl-ecosys.com>
 <CAPTjJmpqG21j2rVTqUJg_-=_6RWg50rnUi_8KdDc3kSHpzO6Ng@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+FnnTwS8A2zQkSJiJVL3Toid+0Xg_bm90mTKArxC-qY1X62SA@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.LNX.2.20.2101120938140.12379@salmo.appl-ecosys.com>
 <rtkqkr$l9j$1@ciao.gmane.io>
 <20210114003151.GC31888@bladeshadow.org>
 <CAPTjJmrh6zcvUhsHfhq77xm-Ah1O+8-EXf5ZHb9+zrAZVNknmw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20210114034126.GF31888@bladeshadow.org>

On Thu, Jan 14, 2021 at 12:27:19PM +1100, Chris Angelico wrote:
> On Thu, Jan 14, 2021 at 12:11 PM Python <python at bladeshadow.org> wrote:
> >
> > On Tue, Jan 12, 2021 at 06:43:39PM -0000, Grant Edwards wrote:
> > > And those X11 users will swear at you if you override their window
> > > managers configured window placement. Application code should not care
> > > about or try to control window geometry. Period.
> >
> > I think this is just plain wrong.

As a side note, from a purely technical standpoint, Grant's point is
demonstrably factually false.  A GUI application necessarily must
"care about or try to control window geometry" so that if the user
moves or resizes the application, enables or disables additional
widgets, etc., the widgets it contains are redrawn such that they
remain usable, possibly expanding the canvas they're drawn on or
adding new GUI elements like scrollbars to ensure that (at least it
does if it wants to be useful).  GUI frameworks may provide a core
that automatically handles this for you, but that is not always the
case (as an extreme example, if you're writing the whole app from
scratch in assembly language), and in any event the framework is part
of the application... not the window manager.  Just because you didn't
write that code doesn't mean your app doesn't need those facilities.

> I love how "I think" is allowed to trump decades of usability research.

I love how your complete dismissal of everything I said is allowed to
replace logical counterargument, particuarly when you ignored the fact
that absolutely nothing I said actually contradicts any such years of
usability research IN ANY WAY--I merely pointed out that if the
application were to have ADDITIONAL flexibility for expert users in
regard to placing and sizing windows, the application must necessarily
care about and be able to control its window geometry.  All the other
behaviors remain consistent with usability standards--assuming the
vendor implemented them properly, which is a big assumption.  In fact,
providing such extra semantics may allow the user to overcome bad UI
when the vendor failed.

> it is far FAR better to put control in the user's hands

I love how you dismissed that the semantics I described gives MORE
control to the user, not less, without actually sacrificing anything.

I love how you dismissed that not all computer users and not all humans
are the same, that there are variances and outliers within all
usability studies, and indeed all studies of human behavior, and that
flexibility and configurability have value for that reason.

I love how you dismissed the perpectives and motivations of posters in
this thread without understanding or even hearing them.  For all you
know Rich may just be doing it as an academic exercise, in which case
whether or not it conforms to usability best practices is utterly
irrelevant, even if it weren't already the case that giving more
control to the user--something you just claimed to value--requires
giving control to the app.


From ikorot01 at gmail.com  Wed Jan 13 22:50:07 2021
From: ikorot01 at gmail.com (Igor Korot)
Date: Wed, 13 Jan 2021 21:50:07 -0600
Subject: Application window geometry specifier
In-Reply-To: <0250463f-c22b-43b9-c7cc-4be7f39e87b0@DancesWithMice.info>
References: <alpine.LNX.2.20.2101120831280.12379@salmo.appl-ecosys.com>
 <CAPTjJmpqG21j2rVTqUJg_-=_6RWg50rnUi_8KdDc3kSHpzO6Ng@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+FnnTwS8A2zQkSJiJVL3Toid+0Xg_bm90mTKArxC-qY1X62SA@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.LNX.2.20.2101120938140.12379@salmo.appl-ecosys.com>
 <rtkqkr$l9j$1@ciao.gmane.io> <20210114003151.GC31888@bladeshadow.org>
 <CAPTjJmrh6zcvUhsHfhq77xm-Ah1O+8-EXf5ZHb9+zrAZVNknmw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANDiX9+-QqQT5wRhtdBJ3GCEa8Hr+D2NCR_X3rUm2dJRJ2Ab-Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <0250463f-c22b-43b9-c7cc-4be7f39e87b0@DancesWithMice.info>
Message-ID: <CA+FnnTxPB60N=zpTd8KLfBVQ8u7L4mE6ALi9n46pmPmiAvmAWg@mail.gmail.com>

Hi, David,

On Wed, Jan 13, 2021 at 9:24 PM David L Neil via Python-list
<python-list at python.org> wrote:
>
> On 14/01/2021 15.25, boB Stepp wrote:
> > On Wed, Jan 13, 2021 at 7:28 PM Chris Angelico <rosuav at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >> I love how "I think" is allowed to trump decades of usability research.
>
> I'm just pleased that @Chris has found love!
> (not detracting from the point though)
>
>
> > Can you recommend a good reference for someone relatively new to GUI
> > programming that is based on such research?  Book or web reference
> > would be fine.
>
> Most of my training-materials (certainly in this topic) are web-based -
> but the ideas are also common to Python.
>
>
> Nielsen-Norman Group do a lot of work in UX and offer a regular
> newsletter which is usually a good way to make the brain-cells work for
> their living: https://www.nngroup.com/
>
> eg https://www.nngroup.com/articles/usability-101-introduction-to-usability/
>
>
> A more applied view, courtesy of the New Zealand Government:
> https://www.digital.govt.nz/standards-and-guidance/nz-government-web-standards/web-usability-standard-1-3/
>
>
> Some become confused between the two terms: Accessibility and Usability.
>
> Here's what the boss says:
> https://www.w3.org/WAI/fundamentals/accessibility-usability-inclusion/
>
> This article clearly explains each and then offers a comparison.
> https://www.telerik.com/blogs/web-accessibility-vs-usability
>
>
> If you really want to dig-down, I know for-sure that IBM, Microsoft,
> Apple (and presumably others) have compiled style-guides about how
> various GUIs should work, starting from really basic matters such as
> when to use radio-buttons and when check-boxes. I can't tell you if the
> gtk, qt, or wx people offer something similar...

Certainly not wx - because wx using native set of widgets and therefore
relies on the OS UI guidelines.

Thank you.

> --
> Regards =dn
> --
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

From rosuav at gmail.com  Wed Jan 13 23:02:05 2021
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Thu, 14 Jan 2021 15:02:05 +1100
Subject: Application window geometry specifier
In-Reply-To: <20210114034126.GF31888@bladeshadow.org>
References: <alpine.LNX.2.20.2101120831280.12379@salmo.appl-ecosys.com>
 <CAPTjJmpqG21j2rVTqUJg_-=_6RWg50rnUi_8KdDc3kSHpzO6Ng@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+FnnTwS8A2zQkSJiJVL3Toid+0Xg_bm90mTKArxC-qY1X62SA@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.LNX.2.20.2101120938140.12379@salmo.appl-ecosys.com>
 <rtkqkr$l9j$1@ciao.gmane.io> <20210114003151.GC31888@bladeshadow.org>
 <CAPTjJmrh6zcvUhsHfhq77xm-Ah1O+8-EXf5ZHb9+zrAZVNknmw@mail.gmail.com>
 <20210114034126.GF31888@bladeshadow.org>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmqF58RbD5EFA0fWx6ohUTrPGHCxHQHF+ev761NCLetDNQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Jan 14, 2021 at 2:43 PM Python <python at bladeshadow.org> wrote:
> > it is far FAR better to put control in the user's hands
>
> I love how you dismissed that the semantics I described gives MORE
> control to the user, not less, without actually sacrificing anything.

Actually, you give control to the application, and then the
application has to choose to give it to the user.

But apparently, this thread has devolved to this kind of total
dismissal, so I'm not going to respond further. Have fun building your
app, do what you like with it, and I'll continue to use
standards-compliant applications that actually behave correctly in all
situations.

ChrisA

From python.list at tim.thechases.com  Wed Jan 13 22:37:42 2021
From: python.list at tim.thechases.com (Tim Chase)
Date: Wed, 13 Jan 2021 21:37:42 -0600
Subject: count consecutive elements
In-Reply-To: <CAGGBd_pokcB9f2BUYCT4rOW3HP5QeOp8TKS0SYLyYtQL8y2Vvw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <slrnrvup10.dse.Bischoop@vimart.net>
 <20210113193502.7d2d778b@bigbox.attlocal.net>
 <CAGGBd_pokcB9f2BUYCT4rOW3HP5QeOp8TKS0SYLyYtQL8y2Vvw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20210113213742.2275d553@bigbox.attlocal.net>

On 2021-01-13 18:20, Dan Stromberg wrote:
> I'm kind of partial to:
> 
> import collections
> import typing
> 
> 
> def get_longest(string: str) -> typing.Tuple[int, str]:
>     """Get the longest run of a single consecutive character."""
>     dict_: typing.DefaultDict[str, int] =
> collections.defaultdict(int) for left_ch, right_ch in zip(string,
> string[1:]): if left_ch == right_ch:
>             dict_[left_ch] += 1
> 
>     maximum = max((value, key) for key, value in dict_.items())
> 
>     return maximum

seems to only return one value so seems to get odd results if I
specify something like

  get_longest("aaabcccbbb")

which at least here tells me that "c" is the longest run, even though
aaa, bbb, and ccc are all runs of length 3.  The OP didn't specify
what should happen in that case, so it would need some clarification.

-tkc




From python at bladeshadow.org  Wed Jan 13 23:32:33 2021
From: python at bladeshadow.org (Python)
Date: Wed, 13 Jan 2021 22:32:33 -0600
Subject: Application window geometry specifier
In-Reply-To: <CAPTjJmqF58RbD5EFA0fWx6ohUTrPGHCxHQHF+ev761NCLetDNQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <alpine.LNX.2.20.2101120831280.12379@salmo.appl-ecosys.com>
 <CAPTjJmpqG21j2rVTqUJg_-=_6RWg50rnUi_8KdDc3kSHpzO6Ng@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+FnnTwS8A2zQkSJiJVL3Toid+0Xg_bm90mTKArxC-qY1X62SA@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.LNX.2.20.2101120938140.12379@salmo.appl-ecosys.com>
 <rtkqkr$l9j$1@ciao.gmane.io>
 <20210114003151.GC31888@bladeshadow.org>
 <CAPTjJmrh6zcvUhsHfhq77xm-Ah1O+8-EXf5ZHb9+zrAZVNknmw@mail.gmail.com>
 <20210114034126.GF31888@bladeshadow.org>
 <CAPTjJmqF58RbD5EFA0fWx6ohUTrPGHCxHQHF+ev761NCLetDNQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20210114043233.GG31888@bladeshadow.org>

On Thu, Jan 14, 2021 at 03:02:05PM +1100, Chris Angelico wrote:
> On Thu, Jan 14, 2021 at 2:43 PM Python <python at bladeshadow.org> wrote:
> > > it is far FAR better to put control in the user's hands
> >
> > I love how you dismissed that the semantics I described gives MORE
> > control to the user, not less, without actually sacrificing anything.
> 
> Actually, you give control to the application, and then the
> application has to choose to give it to the user.

Right, because unless the user can somehow execute instructions
directly on the CPU via some sort of direct cerebral link, all control
the user has over the behavior of the applications comes... from the
applications.

> But apparently, this thread has devolved to this kind of total
> dismissal

For which you are entirely the cause.  I simply responded in kind.
Apparently you don't like it any more than the rest of us do.


From 2QdxY4RzWzUUiLuE at potatochowder.com  Wed Jan 13 23:18:14 2021
From: 2QdxY4RzWzUUiLuE at potatochowder.com (2QdxY4RzWzUUiLuE at potatochowder.com)
Date: Wed, 13 Jan 2021 22:18:14 -0600
Subject: Application window geometry specifier
In-Reply-To: <20210114034126.GF31888@bladeshadow.org>
References: <alpine.LNX.2.20.2101120831280.12379@salmo.appl-ecosys.com>
 <CAPTjJmpqG21j2rVTqUJg_-=_6RWg50rnUi_8KdDc3kSHpzO6Ng@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+FnnTwS8A2zQkSJiJVL3Toid+0Xg_bm90mTKArxC-qY1X62SA@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.LNX.2.20.2101120938140.12379@salmo.appl-ecosys.com>
 <rtkqkr$l9j$1@ciao.gmane.io>
 <20210114003151.GC31888@bladeshadow.org>
 <CAPTjJmrh6zcvUhsHfhq77xm-Ah1O+8-EXf5ZHb9+zrAZVNknmw@mail.gmail.com>
 <20210114034126.GF31888@bladeshadow.org>
Message-ID: <X//GBr9lnrrjA0Lx@scrozzle>

On 2021-01-13 at 21:41:26 -0600,
Python <python at bladeshadow.org> wrote:

> On Thu, Jan 14, 2021 at 12:27:19PM +1100, Chris Angelico wrote:
> > On Thu, Jan 14, 2021 at 12:11 PM Python <python at bladeshadow.org> wrote:
> > >
> > > On Tue, Jan 12, 2021 at 06:43:39PM -0000, Grant Edwards wrote:
> > > > And those X11 users will swear at you if you override their window
> > > > managers configured window placement. Application code should not care
> > > > about or try to control window geometry. Period.
> > >
> > > I think this is just plain wrong.
> 
> As a side note, from a purely technical standpoint, Grant's point is
> demonstrably factually false.  A GUI application necessarily must
> "care about or try to control window geometry" so that if the user
> moves or resizes the application, enables or disables additional
> widgets, etc., the widgets it contains are redrawn such that they
> remain usable, possibly expanding the canvas they're drawn on or
> adding new GUI elements like scrollbars to ensure that (at least it
> does if it wants to be useful) ...

A GUI application must care about the geometry (to react to changes made
by the user or the window manager).

OTOH, if I (the user) request a 80x24 character terminal window with a
certain size glyph, and I get a terminal that isn't 80x24 and that glyph
size, then at least one of the application, the window manager, or some
other library is broken.  Period.  Go ahead, tell me, the *user*, that I
shouldn't do that, or that I should reconsider my use case, or that such
a request is too demanding for a modern computer system to honor.

See also Extended Window Manager Hints,? with the emphasis on *hints*.

> ... GUI frameworks may provide a core that automatically handles this
> for you, but that is not always the case (as an extreme example, if
> you're writing the whole app from scratch in assembly language) ...

Define "from scratch."

Why does the language in which I'm writing my application matter?

? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extended_Window_Manager_Hints

From info at wingware.com  Thu Jan 14 10:08:56 2021
From: info at wingware.com (Wingware)
Date: Thu, 14 Jan 2021 10:08:56 -0500
Subject: ANN: Wing Python IDE 7.2.8 has been released
Message-ID: <60005E88.2050304@wingware.com>

Wing 7.2.8 fixes reformatting selections for PEP8, corrects completion 
of code reformatting in remote files when code is unchanged, fixes 
problems analyzing incomplete 'def async' statements, correctly handles 
refactor module rename when the target name exists, adds a preference to 
control the delay before tooltips are shown, reduces the default 
tooltips delay, shows a warning when a file exceeds the configured 
maximum size for running external code checkers, and makes a number of 
other usability improvements.

Details:  https://wingware.com/news/2021-01-12
Downloads:   https://wingware.com/downloads

== About Wing ==

Wing is a light-weight but full-featured Python IDE designed 
specifically for Python, with powerful editing, code inspection, 
testing, and debugging capabilities. Wing's deep code analysis provides 
auto-completion, auto-editing, and refactoring that speed up 
development. Its top notch debugger works with any Python code, locally 
or on a remote host. Wing also supports test-driven development, version 
control, UI color and layout customization, and includes extensive 
documentation and support.

Wing is available in three product levels:  Wing Pro is the 
full-featured Python IDE for professional developers, Wing Personal is a 
free Python IDE for students and hobbyists (omits some features), and 
Wing 101 is a very simplified free Python IDE for beginners (omits many 
features).

Learn more at https://wingware.com/



From drsalists at gmail.com  Thu Jan 14 10:47:41 2021
From: drsalists at gmail.com (Dan Stromberg)
Date: Thu, 14 Jan 2021 07:47:41 -0800
Subject: count consecutive elements
In-Reply-To: <CAGGBd_pokcB9f2BUYCT4rOW3HP5QeOp8TKS0SYLyYtQL8y2Vvw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <slrnrvup10.dse.Bischoop@vimart.net>
 <20210113193502.7d2d778b@bigbox.attlocal.net>
 <CAGGBd_pokcB9f2BUYCT4rOW3HP5QeOp8TKS0SYLyYtQL8y2Vvw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAGGBd_qmS3KPDt8=-8EWmWaX9zLLgW=HvaGqcc3eKNeBd=vVjw@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Jan 13, 2021 at 6:20 PM Dan Stromberg <drsalists at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Wed, Jan 13, 2021 at 5:59 PM Tim Chase <python.list at tim.thechases.com>
> wrote:
>
>> On 2021-01-13 21:20, Bischoop wrote:
>> > I want to  to display a number or an alphabet which appears mostly
>> > consecutive in a given string or numbers or both
>> > Examples
>> > s= ' aabskaaabadcccc'
>> > output: c
>> > # c appears 4 consecutive times
>> >  8bbakebaoa
>> > output: b
>> > #b appears 2 consecutive times
>>
>
> I'm kind of partial to:
>
> import collections
> import typing
>
>
> def get_longest(string: str) -> typing.Tuple[int, str]:
>
I just realized this has a kinda big bug. Don't use!

From mrd at redhat.com  Wed Jan 13 20:26:32 2021
From: mrd at redhat.com (Matt Davis)
Date: Wed, 13 Jan 2021 17:26:32 -0800
Subject: [ANN] PyYAML-5.4b1: Linux and Mac users, please test wheels!
Message-ID: <CAJD0Ssgf6z4jCE13N45inbWvRHRBmDBm4Djmp_XHz5AHkN-6EQ@mail.gmail.com>

=======================
Announcing PyYAML-5.4b1
=======================

A beta release of PyYAML is now available:
https://github.com/yaml/pyyaml/releases/tag/5.4b1

This release contains a security fix for CVE-2020-14343. It removes the
python/module, python/object, and python/object/new tags from the
FullLoader.
YAML that uses these tags must be loaded by UnsafeLoader, or a custom loader
that has explicitly enabled them.

This beta release also adds Python wheels for manylinux1 (x86_64) and
MacOS (x86_64) with the libyaml extension included (built on libyaml 0.2.5).
We believe these wheels to be stable, but please take the opportunity to
test
against your local Linux and MacOS environments, and file any issues at
https://github.com/yaml/pyyaml/issues.

PyYAML 5.4 will be the last release to support Python 2.7.


Changes
=======

* https://github.com/yaml/pyyaml/pull/407 -- build modernization, remove
distutils, fix metadata, build wheels, CI to GHA
* https://github.com/yaml/pyyaml/pull/472 -- fix for CVE-2020-14343, moves
arbitrary python tags to UnsafeLoader
* https://github.com/yaml/pyyaml/pull/441 -- fix memory leak in implicit
resolver setup
* https://github.com/yaml/pyyaml/pull/392 -- fix py2 copy support for
timezone objects
* https://github.com/yaml/pyyaml/pull/378 -- fix compatibility with Jython


Resources
=========

PyYAML IRC Channel: #pyyaml on irc.freenode.net
PyYAML homepage: https://github.com/yaml/pyyaml
PyYAML documentation: http://pyyaml.org/wiki/PyYAMLDocumentation
Source and binary installers: https://pypi.org/project/PyYAML/
GitHub repository: https://github.com/yaml/pyyaml/
Bug tracking: https://github.com/yaml/pyyaml/issues

YAML homepage: http://yaml.org/
YAML-core mailing list:
http://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/yaml-core


About PyYAML
============

YAML is a data serialization format designed for human readability and
interaction with scripting languages. PyYAML is a YAML parser and emitter
for
Python.

PyYAML features a complete YAML 1.1 parser, Unicode support, pickle support,
capable extension API, and sensible error messages. PyYAML supports standard
YAML tags and provides Python-specific tags that allow to represent an
arbitrary Python object.

PyYAML is applicable for a broad range of tasks from complex configuration
files to object serialization and persistence.


Example
=======

>>> import yaml

>>> yaml.full_load("""
... name: PyYAML
... description: YAML parser and emitter for Python
... homepage: https://github.com/yaml/pyyaml
... keywords: [YAML, serialization, configuration, persistence, pickle]
... """)
{'keywords': ['YAML', 'serialization', 'configuration', 'persistence',
'pickle'], 'homepage': 'https://github.com/yaml/pyyaml', 'description':
'YAML parser and emitter for Python', 'name': 'PyYAML'}

>>> print(yaml.dump(_))
name: PyYAML
homepage: https://github.com/yaml/pyyaml
description: YAML parser and emitter for Python
keywords: [YAML, serialization, configuration, persistence, pickle]


Maintainers
===========

The following people are currently responsible for maintaining PyYAML:

* Ingy d?t Net
* Matt Davis

and many thanks to all who have contribributed!
See: https://github.com/yaml/pyyaml/pulls


Copyright
=========

Copyright (c) 2017-2020 Ingy d?t Net <ingy at ingy.net>
Copyright (c) 2006-2016 Kirill Simonov <xi at resolvent.net>

The PyYAML module was written by Kirill Simonov <xi at resolvent.net>.
It is currently maintained by the YAML and Python communities.

PyYAML is released under the MIT license.
See the file LICENSE for more details.

From Bischoop at vimart.net  Wed Jan 13 21:06:33 2021
From: Bischoop at vimart.net (Bischoop)
Date: Thu, 14 Jan 2021 02:06:33 -0000 (UTC)
Subject: count consecutive elements
References: <slrnrvup10.dse.Bischoop@vimart.net>
Message-ID: <slrnrvv9p8.ec1.Bischoop@vimart.net>

On 2021-01-13, Bischoop <Bischoop at vimart.net> wrote:

I know what was wrong:

>             m = s.index(i)

I forgot that m will return first index of i.

So tried that way but still getting out of index although I that that
I'm making sure not to get out of index.

s = 'aabskaaabadcccch'

c = 0
t = list(set(s)) # list of characters in s
li=[0,0,0,0,0,0]  # list for counted repeats
print(t)
for x in t:
    h = t.index(x)
    for index, i in enumerate(s):
        maximus = len(s)
        if i == x:
            c += 1
            if index < maximus:
                if s[index +1] != x:  # if next element is not x
                    if c > li[h]:   #update c if bigger than existing
                        li[h] = c
                    c = 0
            else:
                if c > li[h]:
                    li[h] = c


for i in t:
    n = t.index(i)
    print(i,li[n])

print(f'{s[li.index(max(li))]} appears {max(li)} consecutive times')



From tiscauk at gmail.com  Thu Jan 14 01:52:17 2021
From: tiscauk at gmail.com (christine tiscareno)
Date: Thu, 14 Jan 2021 06:52:17 +0000
Subject: Question - problem downloading Python
Message-ID: <CANJ4dDofBDvM7J4PgFYU=zJAAu8FHdyPhCFaVy=QYZJ17gF2=g@mail.gmail.com>

I installed in my lap-top your latest version of Python (3.9.1), yet when I
go to cmd.exe   to check,  I get that I have Python 22.7.17 ???

Why? What should I do to get the latest version?

  I tried going back to fix problems and it does not fix it, that is how I
got your email.

How can I get the latest Python version (3.9.1), instead of what I'm
getting (22.7.17)?

Thank you for your time.

-- 
Kind regards, Christine Tiscareno

From alan.gauld at yahoo.co.uk  Thu Jan 14 11:01:20 2021
From: alan.gauld at yahoo.co.uk (Alan Gauld)
Date: Thu, 14 Jan 2021 16:01:20 +0000
Subject: conceptual problem
In-Reply-To: <3ng3dh-kha.ln1@anthive.com>
References: <i1apvfhooqevl9gkol3ic0itcbdoi0m6a4@4ax.com>
 <r6qvch-sme.ln1@anthive.com>
 <CAPTjJmoDhx_sTDpMyhUk0w80GWpf73AqMihRJmBj-5KGUM2gDQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.711.1610433263.7193.python-list@python.org>
 <3ng3dh-kha.ln1@anthive.com>
Message-ID: <rtppsg$sas$1@ciao.gmane.io>

On 13/01/2021 15:37, songbird wrote:

>   my momentary conceptual problem is that to me OOP means
> being able to encapsulate data structures and code from
> other parts of the program, 

That's true, but encapsulation simply means that the data
and functions are contained within a single
entity - ie a capsule. It says nothing about whether
you can access them directly or not.

When OOP started the basic concept of having functions
inside the same structure as the data that they operated
on was so radical that encapsulation became a big topic.
But over time it has gotten mixed up with data hiding
and abstraction (also big topics back in the 70/80s)
So the term encapsulation has tended to be used to
cover abstraction and data hiding as well as simple(pure)
encapsulation.

> that is how python is designed.  this is probably a complete
> aside to this whole thread and perhaps even this newsgroup

It is a long running(as in for decades!) sub-thread to
the whole Python language. :-)

-- 
Alan G
Author of the Learn to Program web site
http://www.alan-g.me.uk/
http://www.amazon.com/author/alan_gauld
Follow my photo-blog on Flickr at:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/alangauldphotos



From alan.gauld at yahoo.co.uk  Thu Jan 14 11:12:24 2021
From: alan.gauld at yahoo.co.uk (Alan Gauld)
Date: Thu, 14 Jan 2021 16:12:24 +0000
Subject: Exploring terminfo
Message-ID: <rtpqh8$16kg$1@ciao.gmane.io>

During lockdown I've been digging deeper into the curses module
and lately into the tiXXXX family of functions that reside there.

I've written a short program that is supposed to
- *clear the screen*,
- read some input
- display the result in a message *highlighted in bold*.
- get input to end the program

The parts marked with ** use terminfo, or they should.
My problem is that while the clear-screen part works the
bold bit only appears in the final input(), not in the
output message.

Here is the code:

#################
import curses as cur
cur.setupterm()

bold = cur.tigetstr('bold')
cls = cur.tigetstr('clear')

cur.putp(cls)
name = input("Hello, what's your name? ")

cur.putp(bold)
print("Nice to meet you ", name)

input("\nHit enter to exit")
###############

I've tried variations on flush both inside and outside
the print() - both before and after.
I've tried writing to stdout instead of print, but nothing is working.
The Hit enter... message is in bold but the Hello... line isn't.

Does anyone know what's going on and how to fix it.

I could, of course, jump into full curses but I wanted to
see if I could use the terminfo stuff directly to retain
use of regular input() and print() functions.

-- 
Alan G
Author of the Learn to Program web site
http://www.alan-g.me.uk/
http://www.amazon.com/author/alan_gauld
Follow my photo-blog on Flickr at:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/alangauldphotos



From pkpearson at nowhere.invalid  Thu Jan 14 12:04:33 2021
From: pkpearson at nowhere.invalid (Peter Pearson)
Date: 14 Jan 2021 17:04:33 GMT
Subject: A beginning beginner's question about input, output and . . .
References: <i1apvfhooqevl9gkol3ic0itcbdoi0m6a4@4ax.com>
 <i695e0Fm68U1@mid.individual.net> <rtnpn0$p4b$1@ciao.gmane.io>
 <mailman.748.1610584726.7193.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <i6bbt1Fdk9mU1@mid.individual.net>

On Wed, 13 Jan 2021 21:46:08 -0000 (UTC), Grant Edwards wrote:
> On 2021-01-13, Peter Pearson <pkpearson at nowhere.invalid> wrote:
[snip]
>> Browsergui is not widely popular (I don't think anybody but me has
>> mentioned it on this newsgroup), but it was written to be simple and
>> Pythonic, and has served me well.  Browsergui just uses your browser as
>> its user interface.  Grab it from
>>
>>     https://github.com/speezepearson/browsergui
>
> I've been browsing through to documentation and examples, and I don't
> see any way to do any sort of modern flexible layout (e.g. nesting
> horizontal and vertical flexboxes) where you can control which
> elements grow/shrink when the window size changes.
>
> Is there a way to span columns/rows in a grid or control which columns
> grow/shrink?
>
> Have I missed something?

I doubt you've missed anything important, though I'm not sure because
I haven't done any of the things you mention.  Browsergui is minimalist.
If you've done the "python -m browsergui.examples" and don't see 
something like what you want, it's probably not there.

I like Browsergui for simple tools that require a little more
interaction than straight command-line utilities: exploring the effect
of various value-settings on some curve on a graph, or exploring the
ranges of values in a CSV file, or (most recently) rearranging the
order of image files in a list.

-- 
To email me, substitute nowhere->runbox, invalid->com.

From denys.contant at gmail.com  Thu Jan 14 12:44:24 2021
From: denys.contant at gmail.com (Denys Contant)
Date: Thu, 14 Jan 2021 09:44:24 -0800 (PST)
Subject: why sqrt is not a built-in function?
Message-ID: <be5aba81-08c0-4c71-8188-516ea838ce78n@googlegroups.com>

I don't understand why sqrt is not a built-in function. 
Why do we have to first import the function from the math module?
I use it ALL THE TIME!

That felt good. Thank you.








From nospam at please.ty  Thu Jan 14 12:50:11 2021
From: nospam at please.ty (jak)
Date: Thu, 14 Jan 2021 18:50:11 +0100
Subject: why sqrt is not a built-in function?
References: <be5aba81-08c0-4c71-8188-516ea838ce78n@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <rtq08g$f7n$1@gioia.aioe.org>

Il 14/01/2021 18:44, Denys Contant ha scritto:
> I don't understand why sqrt is not a built-in function.
> Why do we have to first import the function from the math module?
> I use it ALL THE TIME!
> 
> That felt good. Thank you.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
 >>> val=16
 >>> exp=2
 >>> val ** (1/exp)
4.0
 >>>

From skip.montanaro at gmail.com  Thu Jan 14 13:21:04 2021
From: skip.montanaro at gmail.com (Skip Montanaro)
Date: Thu, 14 Jan 2021 12:21:04 -0600
Subject: why sqrt is not a built-in function?
In-Reply-To: <be5aba81-08c0-4c71-8188-516ea838ce78n@googlegroups.com>
References: <be5aba81-08c0-4c71-8188-516ea838ce78n@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <CANc-5UzbGooRU03LefDs4BcvchSzLD6Zxika9qycjbhsiKwa_w@mail.gmail.com>

> I don't understand why sqrt is not a built-in function.
> Why do we have to first import the function from the math module?
> I use it ALL THE TIME!

For one, it's specific to numeric types. You might use it all the
time, but I (for example) almost never need to use it, or to import
the math module for my Python work/play. OTOH, I use stuff from the
sys and csv modules (and lately, pandas) all the time. I import those
modules when necessary. If you don't need them, I suspect you might
grumble that they are useless for you. Requiring explicit module
import gives programmers more control over the content of their module
namespaces if the builtins don't include the kitchen sink.

If you skim the output of

import builtins
dir(builtins)

you should see that the two largest classes of builtin identifiers are
exceptions (ZeroDivisionError, etc) and types (list, set, etc). Other
classes include singleton constants (True, False, None) and general
sequence operations (useful for loop control - reversed, iter,
zip...). math.sqrt doesn't fit into those object classes. The
remainder are a mixture of things, but generally aren't quite as
special purpose as that. Granted, there are a couple which might be
better left out (IMO), like round and pow, but I suspect their
presence might simply be more a matter of them being present since
Python's earliest days and reflect a tendency later to avoid
gratuitous breakage of existing code.

Finally, should have never considered it, I think you might want to
study the output of

import this

Think on the second and last lines in particular.

Skip

From alan.gauld at yahoo.co.uk  Thu Jan 14 12:54:55 2021
From: alan.gauld at yahoo.co.uk (Alan Gauld)
Date: Thu, 14 Jan 2021 17:54:55 +0000
Subject: why sqrt is not a built-in function?
In-Reply-To: <be5aba81-08c0-4c71-8188-516ea838ce78n@googlegroups.com>
References: <be5aba81-08c0-4c71-8188-516ea838ce78n@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <rtq0hg$15p7$1@ciao.gmane.io>

On 14/01/2021 17:44, Denys Contant wrote:
> I don't understand why sqrt is not a built-in function. 
> Why do we have to first import the function from the math module?
> I use it ALL THE TIME!

because pow() is a builtin function and

root = pow(x,0.5)

is the same as

root = math.sqrt(x)

As is

root = x ** 0.5

which is also builtin.

My question is: why do we even have a sqrt() in the
math module given that pow() and ** are already there?

-- 
Alan G
Author of the Learn to Program web site
http://www.alan-g.me.uk/
http://www.amazon.com/author/alan_gauld
Follow my photo-blog on Flickr at:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/alangauldphotos



From ethan at stoneleaf.us  Thu Jan 14 13:41:24 2021
From: ethan at stoneleaf.us (Ethan Furman)
Date: Thu, 14 Jan 2021 10:41:24 -0800
Subject: why sqrt is not a built-in function?
In-Reply-To: <be5aba81-08c0-4c71-8188-516ea838ce78n@googlegroups.com>
References: <be5aba81-08c0-4c71-8188-516ea838ce78n@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <3716ec87-4a74-8d3d-0bb5-a62bab48e9d1@stoneleaf.us>

On 1/14/21 9:44 AM, Denys Contant wrote:

> I don't understand why sqrt is not a built-in function.
> Why do we have to first import the function from the math module?
> I use it ALL THE TIME!

And thousands, tens of thousands, and maybe hundreds of thousands don't.

> That felt good. Thank you.

Any time.  ;-)

--
~Ethan~

From 2QdxY4RzWzUUiLuE at potatochowder.com  Thu Jan 14 13:55:26 2021
From: 2QdxY4RzWzUUiLuE at potatochowder.com (2QdxY4RzWzUUiLuE at potatochowder.com)
Date: Thu, 14 Jan 2021 12:55:26 -0600
Subject: why sqrt is not a built-in function?
In-Reply-To: <rtq0hg$15p7$1@ciao.gmane.io>
References: <be5aba81-08c0-4c71-8188-516ea838ce78n@googlegroups.com>
 <rtq0hg$15p7$1@ciao.gmane.io>
Message-ID: <YACTnq7w5iFbc1W5@scrozzle>

On 2021-01-14 at 17:54:55 +0000,
Alan Gauld via Python-list <python-list at python.org> wrote:

> My question is: why do we even have a sqrt() in the
> math module given that pow() and ** are already there?

Probably because the standard C math library has such a function, and
Python's math module is (or at least was) supposed be a thin wrapper
around that library.

For completeness, C doesn't have a exponentiation operator.

From rosuav at gmail.com  Thu Jan 14 14:01:18 2021
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Fri, 15 Jan 2021 06:01:18 +1100
Subject: why sqrt is not a built-in function?
In-Reply-To: <YACTnq7w5iFbc1W5@scrozzle>
References: <be5aba81-08c0-4c71-8188-516ea838ce78n@googlegroups.com>
 <rtq0hg$15p7$1@ciao.gmane.io> <YACTnq7w5iFbc1W5@scrozzle>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmpuFc4bmzJ9_O7xnOy3iPnJ_NrFzkqNCuL+P_NiN_vaDw@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Jan 15, 2021 at 5:56 AM <2QdxY4RzWzUUiLuE at potatochowder.com> wrote:
>
> On 2021-01-14 at 17:54:55 +0000,
> Alan Gauld via Python-list <python-list at python.org> wrote:
>
> > My question is: why do we even have a sqrt() in the
> > math module given that pow() and ** are already there?
>
> Probably because the standard C math library has such a function, and
> Python's math module is (or at least was) supposed be a thin wrapper
> around that library.
>
> For completeness, C doesn't have a exponentiation operator.

Also, the math module works specifically with floats. Sometimes that's
what you want, other times it's not.

>>> pow(-2, 0.5)
(8.659560562354934e-17+1.4142135623730951j)
>>> (-2)**0.5
(8.659560562354934e-17+1.4142135623730951j)
>>> from math import sqrt; sqrt(-2)
Traceback (most recent call last):
  File "<stdin>", line 1, in <module>
ValueError: math domain error
>>> from cmath import sqrt; sqrt(-2)
1.4142135623730951j

ChrisA

From * at eli.users.panix.com  Thu Jan 14 14:06:00 2021
From: * at eli.users.panix.com (Eli the Bearded)
Date: Thu, 14 Jan 2021 19:06:00 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: why sqrt is not a built-in function?
References: <be5aba81-08c0-4c71-8188-516ea838ce78n@googlegroups.com>
 <CANc-5UzbGooRU03LefDs4BcvchSzLD6Zxika9qycjbhsiKwa_w@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.782.1610648436.7193.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <eli$2101141355@qaz.wtf>

In comp.lang.python, Skip Montanaro  <skip.montanaro at gmail.com> wrote:
> Finally, should have never considered it, I think you might want to
> study the output of
> 
> import this
> 
> Think on the second and last lines in particular.

   >>> import this
   The Zen of Python, by Tim Peters

   Beautiful is better than ugly.
   Explicit is better than implicit.
   Simple is better than complex.
   Complex is better than complicated.
   Flat is better than nested.
   Sparse is better than dense.
   Readability counts.
   Special cases aren't special enough to break the rules.
   Although practicality beats purity.
   Errors should never pass silently.
   Unless explicitly silenced.
   In the face of ambiguity, refuse the temptation to guess.
   There should be one-- and preferably only one --obvious way to do it.
   Although that way may not be obvious at first unless you're Dutch.
   Now is better than never.
   Although never is often better than *right* now.
   If the implementation is hard to explain, it's a bad idea.
   If the implementation is easy to explain, it may be a good idea.
   Namespaces are one honking great idea -- let's do more of those!
   >>> 

"There should be one-- and preferably only one --obvious way to do it."

Meanwhile, Alan Gauld pointed out:

  AG> because pow() is a builtin function and
  AG> root = pow(x,0.5)
  AG> is the same as
  AG> root = math.sqrt(x)

Plus the ** operation ("root = x ** 0.5"), that's now three ways.

Elijah
------
python user, not python advocate

From rosuav at gmail.com  Thu Jan 14 14:13:53 2021
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Fri, 15 Jan 2021 06:13:53 +1100
Subject: why sqrt is not a built-in function?
In-Reply-To: <eli$2101141355@qaz.wtf>
References: <be5aba81-08c0-4c71-8188-516ea838ce78n@googlegroups.com>
 <CANc-5UzbGooRU03LefDs4BcvchSzLD6Zxika9qycjbhsiKwa_w@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.782.1610648436.7193.python-list@python.org> <eli$2101141355@qaz.wtf>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmqkyCiMVHxmq1eYEDd8hFSMko5LsXOrBLQfUmh5gKjz_Q@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Jan 15, 2021 at 6:11 AM Eli the Bearded <*@eli.users.panix.com> wrote:
>
> In comp.lang.python, Skip Montanaro  <skip.montanaro at gmail.com> wrote:
> > Finally, should have never considered it, I think you might want to
> > study the output of
> >
> > import this
> >
> > Think on the second and last lines in particular.
>
>    >>> import this
>    The Zen of Python, by Tim Peters
>
>    Beautiful is better than ugly.
>    Explicit is better than implicit.
>    Simple is better than complex.
>    Complex is better than complicated.
>    Flat is better than nested.
>    Sparse is better than dense.
>    Readability counts.
>    Special cases aren't special enough to break the rules.
>    Although practicality beats purity.
>    Errors should never pass silently.
>    Unless explicitly silenced.
>    In the face of ambiguity, refuse the temptation to guess.
>    There should be one-- and preferably only one --obvious way to do it.
>    Although that way may not be obvious at first unless you're Dutch.
>    Now is better than never.
>    Although never is often better than *right* now.
>    If the implementation is hard to explain, it's a bad idea.
>    If the implementation is easy to explain, it may be a good idea.
>    Namespaces are one honking great idea -- let's do more of those!
>    >>>
>
> "There should be one-- and preferably only one --obvious way to do it."
>
> Meanwhile, Alan Gauld pointed out:
>
>   AG> because pow() is a builtin function and
>   AG> root = pow(x,0.5)
>   AG> is the same as
>   AG> root = math.sqrt(x)

They're not the same. The math module is the one obvious way to do
things that specifically involve floating point numbers and nothing
else.

ChrisA

From ethan at stoneleaf.us  Thu Jan 14 14:36:14 2021
From: ethan at stoneleaf.us (Ethan Furman)
Date: Thu, 14 Jan 2021 11:36:14 -0800
Subject: why sqrt is not a built-in function?
In-Reply-To: <eli$2101141355@qaz.wtf>
References: <be5aba81-08c0-4c71-8188-516ea838ce78n@googlegroups.com>
 <CANc-5UzbGooRU03LefDs4BcvchSzLD6Zxika9qycjbhsiKwa_w@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.782.1610648436.7193.python-list@python.org> <eli$2101141355@qaz.wtf>
Message-ID: <a4241358-8baf-e22c-b5cc-dd6fa839cbee@stoneleaf.us>

On 1/14/21 11:06 AM, Eli the Bearded wrote:

> "There should be one-- and preferably only one --obvious way to do it."
> 
> Meanwhile, Alan Gauld pointed out:
> 
>    AG> because pow() is a builtin function and
>    AG> root = pow(x,0.5)
>    AG> is the same as
>    AG> root = math.sqrt(x)
> 
> Plus the ** operation ("root = x ** 0.5"), that's now three ways.

Yes, but which of those is obvious?

--
~Ethan~

From vincent.vandevyvre at oqapy.eu  Thu Jan 14 14:51:02 2021
From: vincent.vandevyvre at oqapy.eu (vincent.vandevyvre at oqapy.eu)
Date: Thu, 14 Jan 2021 14:51:02 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Question - problem downloading Python
Message-ID: <20210114204154.Gjhu240010ZUXkU06jhuqP@michel.telenet-ops.be>

On 14/01/21 07:52, Christine Tiscareno wrote:
>I installed in my lap-top your latest version of Python (3.9.1), yet when I
>go to cmd.exe   to check,  I get that I have Python 22.7.17 ???
>
>Why? What should I do to get the latest version?

>  I tried going back to fix problems and it does not fix it, that is how I
>got your email.

>How can I get the latest Python version (3.9.1), instead of what I'm
>getting (22.7.17)?

>Thank you for your time.

Please, copy-paste all the content of your terminal (I presume this is wht you name cmd.exe).

Vincent

From barry at barrys-emacs.org  Thu Jan 14 16:30:11 2021
From: barry at barrys-emacs.org (Barry Scott)
Date: Thu, 14 Jan 2021 21:30:11 +0000
Subject: Exploring terminfo
In-Reply-To: <rtpqh8$16kg$1@ciao.gmane.io>
References: <rtpqh8$16kg$1@ciao.gmane.io>
Message-ID: <F7941401-A5FF-4049-A987-8EBAB6C32BE9@barrys-emacs.org>



> On 14 Jan 2021, at 16:12, Alan Gauld via Python-list <python-list at python.org> wrote:
> 
> During lockdown I've been digging deeper into the curses module
> and lately into the tiXXXX family of functions that reside there.
> 
> I've written a short program that is supposed to
> - *clear the screen*,
> - read some input
> - display the result in a message *highlighted in bold*.
> - get input to end the program

It seems that curses does not allow you to mix raw stdin/stdout with its calls.
(got that idea from a quick web search).

If all you want is simple things like bold and clear I'd just use the
ANSI escape sequences directly.

Are there any terminals that do not understand ANSI escape sequences
these days?

Barry

> 
> The parts marked with ** use terminfo, or they should.
> My problem is that while the clear-screen part works the
> bold bit only appears in the final input(), not in the
> output message.
> 
> Here is the code:
> 
> #################
> import curses as cur
> cur.setupterm()
> 
> bold = cur.tigetstr('bold')
> cls = cur.tigetstr('clear')
> 
> cur.putp(cls)
> name = input("Hello, what's your name? ")
> 
> cur.putp(bold)
> print("Nice to meet you ", name)
> 
> input("\nHit enter to exit")
> ###############
> 
> I've tried variations on flush both inside and outside
> the print() - both before and after.
> I've tried writing to stdout instead of print, but nothing is working.
> The Hit enter... message is in bold but the Hello... line isn't.
> 
> Does anyone know what's going on and how to fix it.
> 
> I could, of course, jump into full curses but I wanted to
> see if I could use the terminfo stuff directly to retain
> use of regular input() and print() functions.
> 
> -- 
> Alan G
> Author of the Learn to Program web site
> http://www.alan-g.me.uk/
> http://www.amazon.com/author/alan_gauld
> Follow my photo-blog on Flickr at:
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/alangauldphotos
> 
> 
> -- 
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
> 


From barry at barrys-emacs.org  Thu Jan 14 16:39:14 2021
From: barry at barrys-emacs.org (Barry Scott)
Date: Thu, 14 Jan 2021 21:39:14 +0000
Subject: Question - problem downloading Python
In-Reply-To: <CANJ4dDofBDvM7J4PgFYU=zJAAu8FHdyPhCFaVy=QYZJ17gF2=g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CANJ4dDofBDvM7J4PgFYU=zJAAu8FHdyPhCFaVy=QYZJ17gF2=g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <C5B9133A-8B9B-463A-B6CB-A79F5100E700@barrys-emacs.org>



> On 14 Jan 2021, at 06:52, christine tiscareno <tiscauk at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> I installed in my lap-top your latest version of Python (3.9.1), yet when I
> go to cmd.exe   to check,  I get that I have Python 22.7.17 ???
> 
> Why? What should I do to get the latest version?
> 
>  I tried going back to fix problems and it does not fix it, that is how I
> got your email.
> 
> How can I get the latest Python version (3.9.1), instead of what I'm
> getting (22.7.17)?


I assume you typed "python".

And I assume that it is because you have python 2.7.17 installed and its on
your PATH.

To run python 3.9.1 do this in cmd.exe

py -3.9

It is also likely that just typing "py" will run python 3.9.1.
Typing "py -2" will run python 2.

Run this to find all the versions of python that you have available:

py -0

Barry

> 
> Thank you for your time.
> 
> -- 
> Kind regards, Christine Tiscareno
> -- 
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
> 


From wolfram.hinderer at googlemail.com  Thu Jan 14 17:00:40 2021
From: wolfram.hinderer at googlemail.com (Wolfram Hinderer)
Date: Thu, 14 Jan 2021 23:00:40 +0100
Subject: count consecutive elements
In-Reply-To: <slrnrvup10.dse.Bischoop@vimart.net>
References: <slrnrvup10.dse.Bischoop@vimart.net>
Message-ID: <462c5e21-a3a8-e086-25d8-5fa9508a068a@gmail.com>


Am 13.01.2021 um 22:20 schrieb Bischoop:
> I want to  to display a number or an alphabet which appears mostly
> consecutive in a given string or numbers or both
> Examples
> s= ' aabskaaabadcccc'
> output: c
> # c appears 4 consecutive times
>   8bbakebaoa
> output: b
> #b appears 2 consecutive times
>
>
You can let itertools.groupy find the groups.

max((len(tuple(group)), key) for key, group in itertools.groupby(s))
# (4, 'c')

From * at eli.users.panix.com  Thu Jan 14 17:10:16 2021
From: * at eli.users.panix.com (Eli the Bearded)
Date: Thu, 14 Jan 2021 22:10:16 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: Exploring terminfo
References: <rtpqh8$16kg$1@ciao.gmane.io>
 <F7941401-A5FF-4049-A987-8EBAB6C32BE9@barrys-emacs.org>
 <mailman.790.1610659815.7193.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <eli$2101141710@qaz.wtf>

In comp.lang.python, Barry Scott  <barry at barrys-emacs.org> wrote:
> Alan Gauld via Python-list <python-list at python.org> wrote:
>> I've written a short program that is supposed to
>> - *clear the screen*,
>> - read some input
>> - display the result in a message *highlighted in bold*.
>> - get input to end the program
> It seems that curses does not allow you to mix raw stdin/stdout with its calls.

This sounds very plausable. In C, in curses one uses printw() not
printf().

> If all you want is simple things like bold and clear I'd just use the
> ANSI escape sequences directly.
> 
> Are there any terminals that do not understand ANSI escape sequences
> these days?

Probably, I hear tales of people using odd set-ups from time to time.
But that could just be the circles I hang out in.

When I've wanted to do simple things like bold and clear, I've used the
tput(1) tool. You can capture stdout from the tool and use the output
over and over. Typically I've done this in shell scripts:

#!/bin/sh
bold=$(tput smso)	# set mode stand out
nobold=$(tput rmso)	# remove mode stand out
clear=$(tput clear)	# clear screen
home=$(tput home)	# home, without clear

for word in Ten Nine Eight Seven Six Five Four Three Two One; do
   echo "${clear}${bold}${word}${nobold} ..."
   sleep 1
done
echo "${home}Nothing happens."
exit

Elijah
------
adapting to python left as an excercise for the reader

From grant.b.edwards at gmail.com  Thu Jan 14 17:11:43 2021
From: grant.b.edwards at gmail.com (Grant Edwards)
Date: Thu, 14 Jan 2021 22:11:43 -0000 (UTC)
Subject: Exploring terminfo
References: <rtpqh8$16kg$1@ciao.gmane.io>
 <F7941401-A5FF-4049-A987-8EBAB6C32BE9@barrys-emacs.org>
Message-ID: <rtqfiv$2bl$1@ciao.gmane.io>

On 2021-01-14, Barry Scott <barry at barrys-emacs.org> wrote:

> It seems that curses does not allow you to mix raw stdin/stdout with
> its calls.  (got that idea from a quick web search).

That is definitely the case. Output in curses is done to an in-memory
virtual terminal screen. Optimized output is then sent (at some point
later) to update the physical terminal with any changes made in the
virtual terminal since the last update.  If you want to use ncurses,
you can't mess with the physical terminal behind its back and expect
anything to work.

> If all you want is simple things like bold and clear I'd just use the
> ANSI escape sequences directly.

Or use a terminfo library:

  https://github.com/DirectXMan12/py-terminfo

It _may_ be possible to use ncurses to get the terminfo strings
required for various functions without actually having ncurses to any
I/O, but I've never tried that...

--
Grant


From grant.b.edwards at gmail.com  Thu Jan 14 18:08:38 2021
From: grant.b.edwards at gmail.com (Grant Edwards)
Date: Thu, 14 Jan 2021 23:08:38 -0000 (UTC)
Subject: Exploring terminfo
References: <rtpqh8$16kg$1@ciao.gmane.io>
 <F7941401-A5FF-4049-A987-8EBAB6C32BE9@barrys-emacs.org>
 <mailman.790.1610659815.7193.python-list@python.org>
 <eli$2101141710@qaz.wtf>
Message-ID: <rtqitm$na0$1@ciao.gmane.io>

On 2021-01-14, Eli the Bearded <*@eli.users.panix.com> wrote:

> When I've wanted to do simple things like bold and clear, I've used the
> tput(1) tool. You can capture stdout from the tool and use the output
> over and over. Typically I've done this in shell scripts:
>
> #!/bin/sh
> bold=$(tput smso)	# set mode stand out
> nobold=$(tput rmso)	# remove mode stand out
> [...]

I was about to suggest using tput.

https://tldp.org/HOWTO/Bash-Prompt-HOWTO/x405.html
https://linuxcommand.org/lc3_adv_tput.php
https://martin-thoma.com/colorize-your-scripts-output/

>From python you could actually invoke the tput executable every time
you wanted to do something, or you could cache the output strings produced by
tput as demonstrated in the bash script above.

Alternatively, I think you can use the ncurses library to retrieve the control
strings (just don't use any ncurses input/output calls), like this example from
https://stackoverflow.com/questions/6199285/tput-cup-in-python-on-the-commandline:

    from curses import *
    setupterm()

    cols = tigetnum("cols")
    lines = tigetnum("lines")
    print str(cols) + "x" + str(lines)

    place_begin = tparm(tigetstr("cup"), 15, 14)
    place_end = tparm(tigetstr("cup"), 50, 0)

    print place_begin + "-- some text --" + place_end



From avigross at verizon.net  Thu Jan 14 18:51:29 2021
From: avigross at verizon.net (Avi Gross)
Date: Thu, 14 Jan 2021 18:51:29 -0500
Subject: why sqrt is not a built-in function?
In-Reply-To: <a4241358-8baf-e22c-b5cc-dd6fa839cbee@stoneleaf.us>
References: <be5aba81-08c0-4c71-8188-516ea838ce78n@googlegroups.com>
 <CANc-5UzbGooRU03LefDs4BcvchSzLD6Zxika9qycjbhsiKwa_w@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.782.1610648436.7193.python-list@python.org> <eli$2101141355@qaz.wtf>
 <a4241358-8baf-e22c-b5cc-dd6fa839cbee@stoneleaf.us>
Message-ID: <0b0001d6ead0$2de55630$89b00290$@verizon.net>

Ethan, if it is not obvious, then should we add the following functions just
in case?

	cube_root()
		fourth_root()
			nth(root)
				two_thirds_root()
			e_th_root()
		pi_th_root()
	x_over_y_root()

And so on.

It is true that square roots are probably more commonly taken than many
others above (I have never taken the pi_th root but you never know) and you
can make a fourth root by taking the square root twice. There is nothing
wrong with creating a convenience function but it needs to stop somewhere.
The purpose of modules or packages and other add-ons is to supplement the
base language that is loaded whether you want it or not. Some have argued to
remove many current things from the base that THEY never use (or compiled
their own such version) to make it smaller and faster.

Given that, you can either import the sqrt function or make your own that
just turns around and uses one of the methods that is built-in. But if you
use all kinds of things regularly, consider importing them all at once by
having your own module with some name that imports all of them and importing
that and waiting as they all load.



-----Original Message-----
From: Python-list <python-list-bounces+avigross=verizon.net at python.org> On
Behalf Of Ethan Furman
Sent: Thursday, January 14, 2021 2:36 PM
To: python-list at python.org
Subject: Re: why sqrt is not a built-in function?

On 1/14/21 11:06 AM, Eli the Bearded wrote:

> "There should be one-- and preferably only one --obvious way to do it."
> 
> Meanwhile, Alan Gauld pointed out:
> 
>    AG> because pow() is a builtin function and
>    AG> root = pow(x,0.5)
>    AG> is the same as
>    AG> root = math.sqrt(x)
> 
> Plus the ** operation ("root = x ** 0.5"), that's now three ways.

Yes, but which of those is obvious?

--
~Ethan~
-- 
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list


From PythonList at DancesWithMice.info  Thu Jan 14 19:43:03 2021
From: PythonList at DancesWithMice.info (dn)
Date: Fri, 15 Jan 2021 13:43:03 +1300
Subject: Friday Finking: Abstract Base Classes - love or hate
Message-ID: <7a8602e9-3054-5e7c-d549-e342f7bee8e2@etelligence.info>

Do you make frequent use of Abstract Base Classes (ABCs), prefer to use
an ordinary super-class for the same purpose, or steer-clear? Are they
more-usually employed when the project includes an extensive design
stage, and the meta-class integral to some hierarchy of entities?


Previous Friday Finkings have arisen from in-house discussions within a
Python dev.team which deserved a wider airing or debate. This contains
(with due apologies) excessive personal reflection and comments
abstracted from posts to this Discussion List.


Many of us have used Python for years but never touched ABCs. Apparently
then, we don't need to be aware of them! Colleagues 'here' have said
"never used it" and/or "never seen the need", and similar.

Often pythonista learn how to define class(es), and then to inherit or
compose further classes. Everything works swimmingly. If it ain't broke,
don't fix it! So, we have no reason to advance our programming
capabilities/knowledge. Indeed an earlier post voiced the suggestion
that we could get on quite happily without knowing about/using ABCs.


Aside: Certainly the earliest iteration of Python meta-classes/ABCs
(related, but confusingly different - am not going there!) 'arrived' at
about the same time as did I - back at Python 1.n - but I've only
ever/started using ABCs, since circa 3.5. Thus, from personal
learning-experience: one can only understand and use abstract-classes
after gaining a thorough understanding and facility with using
(ordinary) class-es. (perhaps?)


Conducting (what some people call) extensive research*, we will be told
that an ABC is: "a way to overload isinstance() and issubclass()". When
would we use those two functions which introspect a class-hierarchy?

isinstance(object, classinfo)
= is the object argument an instance of the classinfo argument

issubclass(class, classinfo)
= is the class argument a subclass of the classinfo argument
(etc)

Luv-a-duck! How does this fit with duck-typing and EAFP? (sorry,
terrible attempt at a joke) Aren't we supposed to *presume* that we our
sub-class/instance is just that, and we should just presume to use its
data and methods (wrapped in a try...except in case 'forgiveness' might
be necessary)?


Perhaps with the increasing number of DataScience folk using Python (?),
we do seem to be finding a reasonable proportion of Python
improvements/updates seemingly heading in the LBYL direction... OK,
let's go-with-the-flow.

There are two 'problems' with the isinstance()/issubclass() approach:
- it's not very duck-y
- when it 'happens'.

So, let's say we want to *execute* a particular method against the
current data-structure. We can only do this if the class (or its
hierarchy) includes said method. Thus:

    data.method( arguments... )

However, we are concerned that the instance may not be part of a
hierarchy offering this method. What can we do?

- EAFP: wrap in try...except
- LBYL: check for method by assuring the hierarchy, eg isinstance()

Each incurring the consequential-problem: but what then?


The problem is not 'discovered' until execution-time - worst-case
scenario: it is discovered by some user (who is no-longer our friend).

If we are really going LBYL, surely we want to discover the problem as
early as possible, ie preferably whilst coding+testing?

Using an ABC we can do just that, because the presence/absence of
methods is checked when the sub-class is defined. If it does not
implement all of the required methods, the sub-class will fail. Yes, we
could do that by coding a super-class with methods that contain only:

    raise NotImplementedError()

but when would a sub-class's error in not implementing the method then
be 'discovered'?


Personal aside/illustration/confession: I implemented an application
which used "plug-ins" - effectively filters/actions. The first couple of
use-cases were easy - they were integral to the application-design. As
is the way of these things, few months later a request arrived for
another plug-in. Of course, I was very happy with the plug-in which I
coded oh-so-quickly. Trouble is, I *forgot* to implement one of the
required methods, and mis-spelled another. Yes, if I had a scrap of
humility, I should have re-read my original code. Sigh!

Forget the apocryphal "will your future self remember in six months'
time", as I have aged (and most of us do!), I've moved my philosophy to
one of trying to avoid having to remember - firstly in six *weeks'*
time, and more recently: six *days'*!

All was greatly improved by implementing an ABC as a guide, or a
check-list, even, a template - as proven by later requests for yet more
'plug-ins'...

Please remember that 'umble scribe is not an "OOP-native", starting this
career way-back when mainframes were powered by dinosaurs in
tread-mills. I am told this is what other languages refer to as an
"interface". In some ways I visualise the ABC as a "mixin" - perhaps
better-understood when the ABC does include an inheritable method.
(feel free to add/discuss/correct...)


Back to the "Finking":

When faced with a 'green-field' project, and a dev.team sits down to
create a solid overview design, I've noticed architects and experienced
designers 'see' where meta-classes should be employed and specify (and
are probably the ones to build), accordingly.

My experience with smaller projects is that TDD directs us to develop
one functional-step at a time. Once successfully tested, we re-factor
and consider qualitative factors. Either the former or latter step may
involve a decision to sub-class an existing structure, or similar. It is
possible that such may include opportunity (even, highlight that it
would be good sense) to employ an ABC and derive from there - because at
this time we may better-appreciate opportunities for re-use, plus having
the tests in-place reduces fear of breakage!

However, as described, my usage seems to be less about data-structures
and more like a check-list of functionality - which I might otherwise
forget to implement in a sub-class.


So, does that imply that when there is a wide and detailed design stage
meta-classes may be employed 'from the word go'; whereas if we employ a
more bottom-up approach, they only make an appearance as part of a 'make
it better' process?


Web.Refs:
(warning - much of the stuff 'out there' on the web is dated and
possibly even misleading to users of 'today's Python'!)
https://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-3119/
https://docs.python.org/3/library/abc.html
https://docs.python.org/3/library/functions.html#isinstance
https://docs.python.org/3/library/functions.html#issubclass
https://idioms.thefreedictionary.com/Lord+love+a+duck!
https://www.tutorialspoint.com/abstract-base-classes-in-python-abc
https://devtut.github.io/python/abstract-base-classes-abc.html
https://everyday.codes/python/abstract-classes-and-meta-classes-in-python/

* ie the top two 'hits' returned by DuckDuckGo
- mere "research" involves only taking the first/"I feel lucky"


Sample code:

from abc import ABC, abstractmethod


class Image( ABC ):
    def __init__( self, name )->None:
        self.name = name

    @abstractmethod
    def load( self, filename:str ):
        """Load image from file into working-memory."""

    @abstractmethod
    def save( self, filename:str ):
        """Save edited image to file-system."""


try:
    i = Image()
except TypeError:
    print( "Sorry, can't instantiate i/Image directly" )


class Non_Image( Image ):

    def load_file( self, filename:str ):
        """This looks reasonable."""


try:
    n = Non_Image( "Under Exposed" )
except TypeError:
    print( "Sorry, n/Non_Image does not look good" )


class PNG_Image( Image ):

    def load( self, filename:str ):
        """Load PNG file."""

    def save( self, filename:str ):
        """Save to PNG file."""

p = PNG_Image( "Picture of the Artist as a Young Man" )
print( "p has instantiated successfully" )
-- 
Regards,
=dn

From * at eli.users.panix.com  Thu Jan 14 20:11:00 2021
From: * at eli.users.panix.com (Eli the Bearded)
Date: Fri, 15 Jan 2021 01:11:00 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: why sqrt is not a built-in function?
References: <be5aba81-08c0-4c71-8188-516ea838ce78n@googlegroups.com>
 <eli$2101141355@qaz.wtf> <a4241358-8baf-e22c-b5cc-dd6fa839cbee@stoneleaf.us>
 <mailman.788.1610652977.7193.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <eli$2101142010@qaz.wtf>

In comp.lang.python, Ethan Furman  <ethan at stoneleaf.us> wrote:
> On 1/14/21 11:06 AM, Eli the Bearded wrote:
>> "There should be one-- and preferably only one --obvious way to do it."
>> Plus the ** operation ("root = x ** 0.5"), that's now three ways.
> Yes, but which of those is obvious?

If it's up to me, the ** one.

Elijah
------
using a syntax with "^" instead of "**" would be okay, too

From greg.ewing at canterbury.ac.nz  Fri Jan 15 00:13:36 2021
From: greg.ewing at canterbury.ac.nz (Greg Ewing)
Date: Fri, 15 Jan 2021 18:13:36 +1300
Subject: why sqrt is not a built-in function?
In-Reply-To: <mailman.795.1610668296.7193.python-list@python.org>
References: <be5aba81-08c0-4c71-8188-516ea838ce78n@googlegroups.com>
 <CANc-5UzbGooRU03LefDs4BcvchSzLD6Zxika9qycjbhsiKwa_w@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.782.1610648436.7193.python-list@python.org> <eli$2101141355@qaz.wtf>
 <a4241358-8baf-e22c-b5cc-dd6fa839cbee@stoneleaf.us>
 <0b0001d6ead0$2de55630$89b00290$@verizon.net>
 <mailman.795.1610668296.7193.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <i6cmk2Fm6c4U1@mid.individual.net>

Aother thing to consider is that math.sqrt is not the only
sqrt function in Python. There is also one in cmath, and
in the wider ecosystem, another one in numpy. Being explicit
about which one you're using is a good thing.

Concerning exponentiation, it can be used to achieve the same
thing as sqrt, but the sqrt function probably uses a more
efficient algorithm.

Also, exponentiation assumes you're okay with getting a
complex result:

 >>> (-27)**0.5
(3.181725716174721e-16+5.196152422706632j)

So it's not quite the same thing as math.sqrt().

-- 
Greg

From greg.ewing at canterbury.ac.nz  Fri Jan 15 00:32:35 2021
From: greg.ewing at canterbury.ac.nz (Greg Ewing)
Date: Fri, 15 Jan 2021 18:32:35 +1300
Subject: conceptual problem (was: A beginning beginner's question about
 input, output and . . .
In-Reply-To: <mailman.746.1610578190.7193.python-list@python.org>
References: <3ng3dh-kha.ln1@anthive.com> <X/95BM+zlwqlj9iK@cskk.homeip.net>
 <mailman.746.1610578190.7193.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <i6cnnjFmd9kU1@mid.individual.net>

On 14/01/21 11:49 am, Cameron Simpson wrote:
> The "pure" OOP approach, where method calls are used as messages to set
> or fetch aspects of the object, is usually does with getter and setter
> methods like:
> 
>      x = o.getX()
>      o.setX(9)

People use get and set methods, not because it's somehow morally
wrong to expose attributes directly, but as a workaround for the
lack of a language feature.

In C++ and Java, different calling syntax is required for direct
access and access mediated by methods, so if you start out exposing
something directly and then change your mind, all the code using it
has to be changed. For this reason, people got into the habit of
wrapping everything in get and set methods from the beginning,
"just in case".

Python doesn't have this problem -- you can turn an attribute
into a property at any time, and nothing else needs to change.
So get and set methods are unnecessary and actively discouraged
in Python.

(C#, if I understand correctly, gets this sort of half-right.
You can turn an attribute into a property, and the calling *source*
doesn't change, but it all has to be recompiled -- which kind of
defeats the purpose.)

-- 
Greg

From rob.cliffe at btinternet.com  Thu Jan 14 14:00:20 2021
From: rob.cliffe at btinternet.com (Rob Cliffe)
Date: Thu, 14 Jan 2021 19:00:20 +0000
Subject: why sqrt is not a built-in function?
In-Reply-To: <be5aba81-08c0-4c71-8188-516ea838ce78n@googlegroups.com>
References: <be5aba81-08c0-4c71-8188-516ea838ce78n@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <4f734c9c-0732-4239-daad-f9981fadc60e@btinternet.com>



On 14/01/2021 17:44, Denys Contant wrote:
> I don't understand why sqrt is not a built-in function.
> Why do we have to first import the function from the math module?
> I use it ALL THE TIME!
I agree that, especially if you have experience in other languages, this 
feels odd, and I have some sympathy for you.? I am not sure that I can 
give you a 100% satisfactory answer.
But:
 ??? if the math module should be automatically imported, how many other 
modules that _somebody_ uses "all the time" should also be automatically 
be imported?? Python gives you a light-weight framework (fast to load a 
program) with the option to plug in whichever batteries you need, and 
it's not so terrible to remember to write "import math" or similar, 
especially after the first time.
>
> That felt good. Thank you.
Although I hope you have other ways of venting your frustration than 
shouting at newsgroups.? Perhaps juggling balls?
Best wishes
Rob Cliffe

From alan.gauld at yahoo.co.uk  Thu Jan 14 19:47:02 2021
From: alan.gauld at yahoo.co.uk (Alan Gauld)
Date: Fri, 15 Jan 2021 00:47:02 +0000
Subject: Exploring terminfo
In-Reply-To: <F7941401-A5FF-4049-A987-8EBAB6C32BE9@barrys-emacs.org>
References: <rtpqh8$16kg$1@ciao.gmane.io>
 <F7941401-A5FF-4049-A987-8EBAB6C32BE9@barrys-emacs.org>
Message-ID: <rtqom6$vpi$1@ciao.gmane.io>

On 14/01/2021 21:30, Barry Scott wrote:

>> During lockdown I've been digging deeper into the curses module
>> and lately into the tiXXXX family of functions that reside there.

> It seems that curses does not allow you to mix raw stdin/stdout with its calls.

That's true of curses after you call initscr()

But the while point of using the tiXXX terminfo
functions is that you don't need to call initscr to
use them, just setupterm() which does no take control
in the same way.

The problem is the tiXXX functions are not well documented
and there are very few tutorials, even in C!

> If all you want is simple things like bold and clear I'd just use the
> ANSI escape sequences directly.

The whole point of terminfo is to avoid having to use
terminal specific control codes.

> Are there any terminals that do not understand ANSI escape sequences

Lots, most significantly the x3270 IBM mainframe terminals.
Now, whether you can run curses and terminfo on a 3270 I
don't know...
But I suspect the Wyse family are non ANSI compliant too
and there are still some of them around. And of course the
standard xterm emulator supports the Tektronic graphics
terminal emulation so there would definitely be a use there.

But to be honest if I was doing this in anger I'd just
use curses. This is more about exploring the module.
The functions are there and so we should be able to
use them and demonstrate them. But for that we need
tutorials/HowTos etc that cover them. I've already
written a curses HowTo, I'd like to extend it to cover
the terminfo bits too. But for now I'm drawing a blank.

-- 
Alan G
Author of the Learn to Program web site
http://www.alan-g.me.uk/
http://www.amazon.com/author/alan_gauld
Follow my photo-blog on Flickr at:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/alangauldphotos



From alan.gauld at yahoo.co.uk  Thu Jan 14 19:49:06 2021
From: alan.gauld at yahoo.co.uk (Alan Gauld)
Date: Fri, 15 Jan 2021 00:49:06 +0000
Subject: Exploring terminfo
In-Reply-To: <rtqfiv$2bl$1@ciao.gmane.io>
References: <rtpqh8$16kg$1@ciao.gmane.io>
 <F7941401-A5FF-4049-A987-8EBAB6C32BE9@barrys-emacs.org>
 <rtqfiv$2bl$1@ciao.gmane.io>
Message-ID: <rtqoq2$vpi$2@ciao.gmane.io>

On 14/01/2021 22:11, Grant Edwards wrote:

> Or use a terminfo library:
> 
>   https://github.com/DirectXMan12/py-terminfo
> 
> It _may_ be possible to use ncurses to get the terminfo strings
> required for various functions without actually having ncurses to any
> I/O, but I've never tried that...

That is precisely what the tiXXX family of functions in
the curses module is supposed to enable. I'm just struggling
to get anything other than very basic stuff working!

-- 
Alan G
Author of the Learn to Program web site
http://www.alan-g.me.uk/
http://www.amazon.com/author/alan_gauld
Follow my photo-blog on Flickr at:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/alangauldphotos



From alan.gauld at yahoo.co.uk  Thu Jan 14 19:56:05 2021
From: alan.gauld at yahoo.co.uk (Alan Gauld)
Date: Fri, 15 Jan 2021 00:56:05 +0000
Subject: Exploring terminfo
In-Reply-To: <rtqitm$na0$1@ciao.gmane.io>
References: <rtpqh8$16kg$1@ciao.gmane.io>
 <F7941401-A5FF-4049-A987-8EBAB6C32BE9@barrys-emacs.org>
 <mailman.790.1610659815.7193.python-list@python.org> <eli$2101141710@qaz.wtf>
 <rtqitm$na0$1@ciao.gmane.io>
Message-ID: <rtqp76$tai$1@ciao.gmane.io>

On 14/01/2021 23:08, Grant Edwards wrote:

> Alternatively, I think you can use the ncurses library to retrieve the control
> strings (just don't use any ncurses input/output calls), like this example from
> https://stackoverflow.com/questions/6199285/tput-cup-in-python-on-the-commandline:
> 
>     from curses import *
>     setupterm()
> 
>     cols = tigetnum("cols")
>     lines = tigetnum("lines")
>     print str(cols) + "x" + str(lines)
> 
>     place_begin = tparm(tigetstr("cup"), 15, 14)
>     place_end = tparm(tigetstr("cup"), 50, 0)
> 
>     print place_begin + "-- some text --" + place_end

That's exactly what I'm trying to do but with the character
attributes rather than cursor positioning. I can retrieve values and I
can clear the screeeen. But the bold(and inverse and underline etc)
strings don;yt seem to affect print() or stdout.write(). But they do
affect the input() prompt strings.

What is different about the input() prompts? Why are they affected
when print isn't?

I've discovered that I can (sort of) get my code to work if I insert
blank input statements between the various prints. But then I need to
keep hitting return to get the display to show up - not exactly useful.
But the point is that after an input() the subsequent print statements
use the set attributes as desired. What can I insert to get the same
effect without requiring the user to type input between prints?
Or what parameter should I be setting where?

-- 
Alan G
Author of the Learn to Program web site
http://www.alan-g.me.uk/
http://www.amazon.com/author/alan_gauld
Follow my photo-blog on Flickr at:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/alangauldphotos



From alan.gauld at yahoo.co.uk  Fri Jan 15 08:19:26 2021
From: alan.gauld at yahoo.co.uk (Alan Gauld)
Date: Fri, 15 Jan 2021 13:19:26 +0000
Subject: Exploring terminfo
In-Reply-To: <rtpqh8$16kg$1@ciao.gmane.io>
References: <rtpqh8$16kg$1@ciao.gmane.io>
Message-ID: <rts4ov$10b4$1@ciao.gmane.io>

On 14/01/2021 16:12, Alan Gauld via Python-list wrote:

> #################
> import curses as cur
> cur.setupterm()
> 
> bold = cur.tigetstr('bold')
> cls = cur.tigetstr('clear')
> 
> cur.putp(cls)
> name = input("Hello, what's your name? ")
> 
> cur.putp(bold)
> print("Nice to meet you ", name)
> 
> input("\nHit enter to exit")
> ###############
> 
> I've tried variations on flush both inside and outside
> the print() - both before and after.
> I've tried writing to stdout instead of print, but nothing is working.
> The "Hit enter..." message is in bold but the "Nice..." line isn't.

A bit more exploration and I've got a C version of the same program
to work (I'll spare you the #includes!):

int main(void){
    char line[20];
    int err = 0;
    char *clr;
    char *bold;

    setupterm("xterm",1, &err);
    clr = tigetstr("clear");
    bold = tigetstr("bold");

    putp(clr);
    putp(bold);
    printf("Enter a name: ");
    fgets(line, sizeof(line),stdin);

    printf("Hello %s\n", line);
    exit(0);
}

So the native C functions work as expected.
Why does the Python wrapper not?

-- 
Alan G
Author of the Learn to Program web site
http://www.alan-g.me.uk/
http://www.amazon.com/author/alan_gauld
Follow my photo-blog on Flickr at:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/alangauldphotos



From grant.b.edwards at gmail.com  Fri Jan 15 12:31:42 2021
From: grant.b.edwards at gmail.com (Grant Edwards)
Date: Fri, 15 Jan 2021 17:31:42 -0000 (UTC)
Subject: Exploring terminfo
References: <rtpqh8$16kg$1@ciao.gmane.io> <rts4ov$10b4$1@ciao.gmane.io>
Message-ID: <rtsjht$119t$1@ciao.gmane.io>

On 2021-01-15, Alan Gauld via Python-list <python-list at python.org> wrote:
> On 14/01/2021 16:12, Alan Gauld via Python-list wrote:
>
>> #################
>> import curses as cur
>> cur.setupterm()
>> 
>> bold = cur.tigetstr('bold')
>> cls = cur.tigetstr('clear')
>> 
>> cur.putp(cls)
>> name = input("Hello, what's your name? ")
>> 
>> cur.putp(bold)
>> print("Nice to meet you ", name)
>> 
>> input("\nHit enter to exit")
>> ###############
>> 
>> I've tried variations on flush both inside and outside
>> the print() - both before and after.
>> I've tried writing to stdout instead of print, but nothing is working.
>> The "Hit enter..." message is in bold but the "Nice..." line isn't.
>
> A bit more exploration and I've got a C version of the same program
> to work (I'll spare you the #includes!):
>
> int main(void){
>     char line[20];
>     int err = 0;
>     char *clr;
>     char *bold;
>
>     setupterm("xterm",1, &err);
>     clr = tigetstr("clear");
>     bold = tigetstr("bold");
>
>     putp(clr);
>     putp(bold);
>     printf("Enter a name: ");
>     fgets(line, sizeof(line),stdin);
>
>     printf("Hello %s\n", line);
>     exit(0);
> }

> So the native C functions work as expected.
> Why does the Python wrapper not?

One difference is that the name prompt is being written to stdout in
the C version and stderr in the Python version. But I don't see why
that would matter.

I suspect that the problem is that putp is writing to the libc
"stdout" FILE stream that's declaredin <stdio.h>. That stream
layer/object has buffering that is invisible to Python. Python's
sys.stdout.flush() is flushing the Python file object's output buffers
to the standard output file descriptor(fd 2). It is not flushing the
the libc FILE stream's output buffers. That apparently doesn't happen
until input() is called (not sure why input() does that). If you omit
the second input() call, and just write to sys.stdout, then the bold
escape sequence doesn't get output until the program terminates.

Now the question: is there a way to tell the curses module to flush
its stdout FILE stream?

--
Grant






From grant.b.edwards at gmail.com  Fri Jan 15 13:33:04 2021
From: grant.b.edwards at gmail.com (Grant Edwards)
Date: Fri, 15 Jan 2021 18:33:04 -0000 (UTC)
Subject: Exploring terminfo
References: <rtpqh8$16kg$1@ciao.gmane.io> <rts4ov$10b4$1@ciao.gmane.io>
 <rtsjht$119t$1@ciao.gmane.io>
Message-ID: <rtsn50$gg9$1@ciao.gmane.io>

On 2021-01-15, Grant Edwards <grant.b.edwards at gmail.com> wrote:

> I suspect that the problem is that putp is writing to the libc
> "stdout" FILE stream that's declaredin <stdio.h>. That stream
> layer/object has buffering that is invisible to Python. Python's
> sys.stdout.flush() is flushing the Python file object's output buffers
> to the standard output file descriptor(fd 2).

This problem probably didn't happen with older versions of python
where python's stdout file object was on top of the libc stdout FILE
stream, and calling sys.stdout.flush() flushed both layers of
buffering out to the file descriptor.

Starting in Python 3.<something>, python's stdio file objects are _not_
on top of the libc FILE streams: they're directly on top of the file
descriptor.

IOW, Python's stdout file object buffering and ncurses stdout FILE
buffering are independent of each other. They reside "beside" each
other, both writing to the file descriptor whenever they see fit with
no coordination between the two.

--
Grant


From alan.gauld at yahoo.co.uk  Fri Jan 15 13:36:20 2021
From: alan.gauld at yahoo.co.uk (Alan Gauld)
Date: Fri, 15 Jan 2021 18:36:20 +0000
Subject: Exploring terminfo
In-Reply-To: <rtsjht$119t$1@ciao.gmane.io>
References: <rtpqh8$16kg$1@ciao.gmane.io> <rts4ov$10b4$1@ciao.gmane.io>
 <rtsjht$119t$1@ciao.gmane.io>
Message-ID: <rtsnb4$i53$1@ciao.gmane.io>

On 15/01/2021 17:31, Grant Edwards wrote:

>>> cur.putp(cls)
>>> name = input("Hello, what's your name? ")
>>>
>>> cur.putp(bold)
>>> print("Nice to meet you ", name)


>>     putp(clr);
>>     putp(bold);
>>     printf("Enter a name: ");
>>     fgets(line, sizeof(line),stdin);
>>
>>     printf("Hello %s\n", line);
>>     exit(0);

> One difference is that the name prompt is being written to stdout in
> the C version and stderr in the Python version. But I don't see why
> that would matter.

That could make a big difference, the putp() function specifically
states that it writes to stdout.

> I suspect that the problem is that putp is writing to the libc
> "stdout" FILE stream that's declaredin <stdio.h>. That stream
> layer/object has buffering that is invisible to Python. 

That would indeed explain it.

> Now the question: is there a way to tell the curses module to flush
> its stdout FILE stream?

Indeed. But unless it's trivial it rather defeats the concept of
using the terminfo functions to create text effects without
diving into full curses screen control! And that was what I
was hoping to uncover.

I wonder if I can use the os module to mess with the
file descriptors.... hmmm.

Thanks for that snippet, I had no idea that input() wrote
to stderr nor that Python added a stdout layer on top of libc.
Do you know where that is documented? I'd be interested in
reading more.

-- 
Alan G
Author of the Learn to Program web site
http://www.alan-g.me.uk/
http://www.amazon.com/author/alan_gauld
Follow my photo-blog on Flickr at:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/alangauldphotos



From grant.b.edwards at gmail.com  Fri Jan 15 13:40:37 2021
From: grant.b.edwards at gmail.com (Grant Edwards)
Date: Fri, 15 Jan 2021 18:40:37 -0000 (UTC)
Subject: How to flush <stdio.h>'s stdout stream?
Message-ID: <rtsnj5$f6a$1@ciao.gmane.io>

In Python 3.7+, how does one flush the stdout FILE stream? I mean the
FILE *declared as 'stdio' in <stdio.h>. I'm _not_ asking how to flush the
Python file object sys.stdio.

The problem is that some Python modules write to FILE *stdio, but
don't flush the stream so that the data gets written to the standard
output file descriptor (fd 1). If you need to interleave the output
from those modules with writes from other Python code to fd 1 (via
sys.stdout or whatever), you need a way to flush FILE *stdio.

I know how to use ctypels to call fflush(), but I can't figure out how
to get the FILE *stdio value to pass to fflush().

Is there some os.??? or sys.??? function that I've missed?




From mstemper at gmail.com  Fri Jan 15 14:16:02 2021
From: mstemper at gmail.com (Michael F. Stemper)
Date: Fri, 15 Jan 2021 13:16:02 -0600
Subject: why sqrt is not a built-in function?
In-Reply-To: <mailman.797.1610726008.7193.python-list@python.org>
References: <be5aba81-08c0-4c71-8188-516ea838ce78n@googlegroups.com>
 <4f734c9c-0732-4239-daad-f9981fadc60e@btinternet.com>
 <mailman.797.1610726008.7193.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <rtspli$cdj$1@dont-email.me>

On 14/01/2021 13.00, Rob Cliffe wrote:
> On 14/01/2021 17:44, Denys Contant wrote:

>> I don't understand why sqrt is not a built-in function.
>> Why do we have to first import the function from the math module?
>> I use it ALL THE TIME!
> I agree that, especially if you have experience in other languages, this 
> feels odd, and I have some sympathy for you.

I cut my teeth on FORTRAN, which has SQRT() as part of the
language. At least 3, 4, and 5 did; I never used later versions.

Here's the status of the square root function in various languages,
in the order that I encountered them:

FORTRAN    Part of the language
Pascal     Part of the language
SNOBOL     Part of the language
c          Need to #include <math.h>
clisp      Part of the language
EcmaScript Part of the language
python     Need to import from math
Java       Need to import from java.math

The four that appear to be in the most use currently are c,
EcmaScript, python, and Java. Of these, only EcmaScript has
Math.sqrt() as part of the language, and that could be partly
due to the fact that the language doesn't have any concept of
"import" or "include".



-- 
Michael F. Stemper
This email is to be read by its intended recipient only. Any other party
reading is required by the EULA to send me $500.00.

From rosuav at gmail.com  Fri Jan 15 15:02:39 2021
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Sat, 16 Jan 2021 07:02:39 +1100
Subject: why sqrt is not a built-in function?
In-Reply-To: <rtspli$cdj$1@dont-email.me>
References: <be5aba81-08c0-4c71-8188-516ea838ce78n@googlegroups.com>
 <4f734c9c-0732-4239-daad-f9981fadc60e@btinternet.com>
 <mailman.797.1610726008.7193.python-list@python.org>
 <rtspli$cdj$1@dont-email.me>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmqkM0-_W_Y=Qo=JJYW27uMLuCQJ2UVyWp5DYqMowq7T9w@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Jan 16, 2021 at 6:21 AM Michael F. Stemper <mstemper at gmail.com> wrote:
> Here's the status of the square root function in various languages,
> in the order that I encountered them:
>
> FORTRAN    Part of the language
> Pascal     Part of the language
> SNOBOL     Part of the language
> c          Need to #include <math.h>
> clisp      Part of the language
> EcmaScript Part of the language
> python     Need to import from math
> Java       Need to import from java.math
>
> The four that appear to be in the most use currently are c,
> EcmaScript, python, and Java. Of these, only EcmaScript has
> Math.sqrt() as part of the language, and that could be partly
> due to the fact that the language doesn't have any concept of
> "import" or "include".
>

Cool. Now tell me: Of all the languages that have a built-in global
name SQRT (which does not include ECMAScript, and for the record, ES
does have imports), how many of them have a built-in or syntax for
dictionaries/mappings? I would put it to you that the ability to look
up something by name in a tree, hashtable, or equivalent, is *at
least* as useful as the ability to calculate a square root. Python
gives you both (since you can raise something to the 0.5th power),
JavaScript in a web browser gives you both, C gives you neither (you
have to #include), and you can fill in the rest yourself.

Languages differ. I don't see why it's so important to focus on just
one thing - and to complain that, even though it's in the standard
library, you have to use an import command to get it.

ChrisA

From mstemper at gmail.com  Fri Jan 15 15:21:17 2021
From: mstemper at gmail.com (Michael F. Stemper)
Date: Fri, 15 Jan 2021 14:21:17 -0600
Subject: why sqrt is not a built-in function?
In-Reply-To: <8s89dh-ce07.ln1@esprimo.zbmc.eu>
References: <be5aba81-08c0-4c71-8188-516ea838ce78n@googlegroups.com>
 <4f734c9c-0732-4239-daad-f9981fadc60e@btinternet.com>
 <mailman.797.1610726008.7193.python-list@python.org>
 <rtspli$cdj$1@dont-email.me> <8s89dh-ce07.ln1@esprimo.zbmc.eu>
Message-ID: <rtstg4$aaq$1@dont-email.me>

On 15/01/2021 14.00, Chris Green wrote:
> Michael F. Stemper <mstemper at gmail.com> wrote:
>> On 14/01/2021 13.00, Rob Cliffe wrote:
>>> On 14/01/2021 17:44, Denys Contant wrote:
>>
>>>> I don't understand why sqrt is not a built-in function.
>>>> Why do we have to first import the function from the math module?
>>>> I use it ALL THE TIME!
>>> I agree that, especially if you have experience in other languages, this
>>> feels odd, and I have some sympathy for you.
>>
>> I cut my teeth on FORTRAN, which has SQRT() as part of the
>> language. At least 3, 4, and 5 did; I never used later versions.
>>
> Surely III, IV and V.  I was definitely Fortran IV

I think that the listings for my cross-compiles for the Cyber 1700
actually said "FORTRAN 3" at the top of each page, but that was over
three decades back, so it's a little hazy. There weren't any standards
for it anyway.

You're spot-on for FORTRAN IV.

A quick check of wikipedia shows that the last one was better referred
to as FORTRAN 77, but I think that the NOS command to invoke the
compiler was FTN5.

-- 
Michael F. Stemper
Galatians 3:28

From eryksun at gmail.com  Fri Jan 15 15:31:31 2021
From: eryksun at gmail.com (Eryk Sun)
Date: Fri, 15 Jan 2021 14:31:31 -0600
Subject: How to flush <stdio.h>'s stdout stream?
In-Reply-To: <rtsnj5$f6a$1@ciao.gmane.io>
References: <rtsnj5$f6a$1@ciao.gmane.io>
Message-ID: <CACL+1atfX=dzLG4PHvJg_MmS348qE2kQv6Zd8BeXrU+17uU7OQ@mail.gmail.com>

On 1/15/21, Grant Edwards <grant.b.edwards at gmail.com> wrote:
> In Python 3.7+, how does one flush the stdout FILE stream? I mean the
> FILE *declared as 'stdio' in <stdio.h>. I'm _not_ asking how to flush the
> Python file object sys.stdio.

You can flush all output streams via C fflush(NULL). If it has to be
just stdout, the code will vary by platform. As far as I know, there
is no standard way at the ABI level to reference C stdin, stdout, and
stderr. Typically these are macros at the API level. The macro might
directly reference the FILE record, or maybe it calls an inline
function that returns the reference. CPython doesn't have a common
wrapper function for this. With ctypes, you'll have to special case
common platform CRTs such as glibc in Linux and ucrt in Windows
(possible, but undocumented). For example:

    import sys
    import time
    import ctypes

    if sys.platform == 'win32' and sys.version_info >= (3, 5):
        libc = ucrt = ctypes.CDLL('ucrtbase', use_errno=True)
        IOLBF = 0x0040
        libc.__acrt_iob_func.restype = ctypes.c_void_p
        stdout = ctypes.c_void_p(libc.__acrt_iob_func(1))
    elif sys.platform == 'linux':
        libc = cglobal = ctypes.CDLL(None, use_errno=True)
        IOLBF = 1
        stdout = ctypes.c_void_p.in_dll(libc, 'stdout')

    # ensure that stdout is buffered for this test
    # has to be called before stdout is used
    libc.setvbuf(stdout, None, IOLBF, 4096)

    def test(flush=False):
        print(f'test with flush={flush}')
        libc.fwrite(b'spam', 1, 4, stdout)
        if flush:
            libc.fflush(stdout)
        time.sleep(5)
        libc.fflush(None)
        print()

    test(flush=False)
    test(flush=True)

With flush=False, the test should wait 5 seconds before 'spam' is
flushed to the console/terminal. With flush=True, there should be no
delay.

From cl at isbd.net  Fri Jan 15 15:00:40 2021
From: cl at isbd.net (Chris Green)
Date: Fri, 15 Jan 2021 20:00:40 +0000
Subject: why sqrt is not a built-in function?
References: <be5aba81-08c0-4c71-8188-516ea838ce78n@googlegroups.com>
 <4f734c9c-0732-4239-daad-f9981fadc60e@btinternet.com>
 <mailman.797.1610726008.7193.python-list@python.org>
 <rtspli$cdj$1@dont-email.me>
Message-ID: <8s89dh-ce07.ln1@esprimo.zbmc.eu>

Michael F. Stemper <mstemper at gmail.com> wrote:
> On 14/01/2021 13.00, Rob Cliffe wrote:
> > On 14/01/2021 17:44, Denys Contant wrote:
> 
> >> I don't understand why sqrt is not a built-in function.
> >> Why do we have to first import the function from the math module?
> >> I use it ALL THE TIME!
> > I agree that, especially if you have experience in other languages, this 
> > feels odd, and I have some sympathy for you.
> 
> I cut my teeth on FORTRAN, which has SQRT() as part of the
> language. At least 3, 4, and 5 did; I never used later versions.
> 
Surely III, IV and V.  I was definitely Fortran IV

-- 
Chris Green
?

From grant.b.edwards at gmail.com  Fri Jan 15 15:32:59 2021
From: grant.b.edwards at gmail.com (Grant Edwards)
Date: Fri, 15 Jan 2021 20:32:59 -0000 (UTC)
Subject: Exploring terminfo
References: <rtpqh8$16kg$1@ciao.gmane.io> <rts4ov$10b4$1@ciao.gmane.io>
 <rtsjht$119t$1@ciao.gmane.io> <rtsnb4$i53$1@ciao.gmane.io>
Message-ID: <rtsu5r$e5k$1@ciao.gmane.io>

On 2021-01-15, Alan Gauld via Python-list <python-list at python.org> wrote:
> On 15/01/2021 17:31, Grant Edwards wrote:
>
>> I suspect that the problem is that putp is writing to the libc
>> "stdout" FILE stream that's declaredin <stdio.h>. That stream
>> layer/object has buffering that is invisible to Python. 
>
> That would indeed explain it.
>
>> Now the question: is there a way to tell the curses module to flush
>> its stdout FILE stream?
>
> Indeed. But unless it's trivial it rather defeats the concept of
> using the terminfo functions to create text effects without
> diving into full curses screen control!

Indeed, that appears to be the case for Python 3.x (unless we can
figure out a way to flush <stdio.h>'s FILE *stdio stream from Python).
I started a separate thread about that specific topic.

> And that was what I was hoping to uncover.
>
> I wonder if I can use the os module to mess with the
> file descriptors.... hmmm.
>
> Thanks for that snippet, I had no idea that input() wrote
> to stderr nor that Python added a stdout layer on top of libc.

Just to be clear, Python 3.7+ stdio,stdin,stderr layers are _not_ on
top of libc's FILE *stdout, stdin, stderr streams and share nothing
with them other than the spelling of the names and (by default) the
underlying file descriptors.  Python's input/output layers are on top
of file descriptors 0, 1, 2.

Older versions of Python had I/O layers that were on top of libc's
FILE *stdin, *stdout, *stderr.

> Do you know where that is documented? I'd be interested in
> reading more.

I can't find it at the moment. Unfortunately words like "file" and
"stream" are too common for Google.




From mstemper at gmail.com  Fri Jan 15 15:39:43 2021
From: mstemper at gmail.com (Michael F. Stemper)
Date: Fri, 15 Jan 2021 14:39:43 -0600
Subject: why sqrt is not a built-in function?
In-Reply-To: <mailman.806.1610740972.7193.python-list@python.org>
References: <be5aba81-08c0-4c71-8188-516ea838ce78n@googlegroups.com>
 <4f734c9c-0732-4239-daad-f9981fadc60e@btinternet.com>
 <mailman.797.1610726008.7193.python-list@python.org>
 <rtspli$cdj$1@dont-email.me>
 <CAPTjJmqkM0-_W_Y=Qo=JJYW27uMLuCQJ2UVyWp5DYqMowq7T9w@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.806.1610740972.7193.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <rtsuig$hv1$1@dont-email.me>

On 15/01/2021 14.02, Chris Angelico wrote:
> On Sat, Jan 16, 2021 at 6:21 AM Michael F. Stemper <mstemper at gmail.com> wrote:
>> Here's the status of the square root function in various languages,
>> in the order that I encountered them:
>>
>> FORTRAN    Part of the language
>> Pascal     Part of the language
>> SNOBOL     Part of the language
>> c          Need to #include <math.h>
>> clisp      Part of the language
>> EcmaScript Part of the language
>> python     Need to import from math
>> Java       Need to import from java.math
>>
>> The four that appear to be in the most use currently are c,
>> EcmaScript, python, and Java. Of these, only EcmaScript has
>> Math.sqrt() as part of the language, and that could be partly
>> due to the fact that the language doesn't have any concept of
>> "import" or "include".
>>
> 
> Cool. Now tell me: Of all the languages that have a built-in global
> name SQRT (which does not include ECMAScript,

I wasn't looking at how the various languages spell it, I was just looking
at the fact that it could be used directly. Since ECMAScript has a
function Math.sqrt(), I counted it as being a direct part of the
language.

>  and for the record, ES
> does have imports),

I stand corrected. So I could say something like "import Math.*" and
then use "sqrt()" directly?

>   how many of them have a built-in or syntax for
> dictionaries/mappings?

Beats me. That wasn't what the OP was complaining about. I just did this
little ad-hoc survey to show that more modern languages don't have an
"inherent" square root function, so python's hardly unique.

>   I would put it to you that the ability to look
> up something by name in a tree, hashtable, or equivalent, is *at
> least* as useful as the ability to calculate a square root.

I don't think that I've used the square root function since I took a
course in geometry in the fall of 2019, so I have no grounds to dispute.

> Languages differ. I don't see why it's so important to focus on just
> one thing - and to complain that, even though it's in the standard
> library, you have to use an import command to get it.

You should probably direct this to the person who complained rather than
the person who showed that the complaint wasn't really consistent with
modern language direction, while python's handling of the square root
function is consistent.


-- 
Michael F. Stemper
Galatians 3:28

From rosuav at gmail.com  Fri Jan 15 15:46:54 2021
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Sat, 16 Jan 2021 07:46:54 +1100
Subject: why sqrt is not a built-in function?
In-Reply-To: <rtsuig$hv1$1@dont-email.me>
References: <be5aba81-08c0-4c71-8188-516ea838ce78n@googlegroups.com>
 <4f734c9c-0732-4239-daad-f9981fadc60e@btinternet.com>
 <mailman.797.1610726008.7193.python-list@python.org>
 <rtspli$cdj$1@dont-email.me>
 <CAPTjJmqkM0-_W_Y=Qo=JJYW27uMLuCQJ2UVyWp5DYqMowq7T9w@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.806.1610740972.7193.python-list@python.org>
 <rtsuig$hv1$1@dont-email.me>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmpJRtibLxCX7-8_P8nhRUAMpd-om0_WiTe48g4Qt3pfZQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Jan 16, 2021 at 7:45 AM Michael F. Stemper <mstemper at gmail.com> wrote:
> > Languages differ. I don't see why it's so important to focus on just
> > one thing - and to complain that, even though it's in the standard
> > library, you have to use an import command to get it.
>
> You should probably direct this to the person who complained rather than
> the person who showed that the complaint wasn't really consistent with
> modern language direction, while python's handling of the square root
> function is consistent.
>

Sorry, you're right, it looked like I was focusing on you there. Your
post was a convenient one to pick up on, since it had some data -
that's all :) My point about complaining was aimed at the OP, who
started this thread with a rant on the basis of having to "import
math". No offense meant to anyone, least of all you.

ChrisA

From rshepard at appl-ecosys.com  Fri Jan 15 15:51:19 2021
From: rshepard at appl-ecosys.com (Rich Shepard)
Date: Fri, 15 Jan 2021 12:51:19 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Writing a Python3 ttk.Notebook
Message-ID: <alpine.LNX.2.20.2101151239390.8377@salmo.appl-ecosys.com>

I want to replace the menu on my application with the more appropriate
notebook. After looking at examples in my reference books and on the Web I
still cannot get it working properly.

Here's a small example (nbtest.py):
---8< -----------------------
#!/usr/bin/env python3

import tkinter as tk
from tkinter import ttk
from tkinter.ttk import Notebook as n

class Test(tk.Tk):

     def __init__(self, *args, **kwargs):
         super().__init__(*args, **kwargs)

         # notebook
         n = ttk.Notebook(self)

         self.tab1 = ttk.Frame(n) # activities
         self.tab2 = ttk.Frame(n) # people
         self.tab3 = ttk.Frame(n) # locations
         self.tab4 = ttk.Frame(n) # organizations
         self.tab5 = ttk.Frame(n) # reports
         self.tab6 = ttk.Frame(n) # lookup tables

         self.add(tab1, text='Activities')
         self.add(tab2, text='People')
         self.add(tab3, text='Locations')
         self.add(tab4, text='Organizations')
         self.add(tab5, text='Reports')
         self.add(tab6, text='Lookups')

         n.pack(expand = 1, fill ="both")

if __name__ == "__main__":
     app = Test()
     app.mainloop()
---->8 -------------------------

python-3.9.1 returns:
$ ./nbtest.py 
Traceback (most recent call last):
   File "/home/rshepard/development/business_tracker/./nbtest.py", line 32, in <module>
     app = Test()
   File "/home/rshepard/development/business_tracker/./nbtest.py", line 22, in __init__
     self.add(tab1, text='Activities')
   File "/usr/lib64/python3.9/tkinter/__init__.py", line 2346, in __getattr__
     return getattr(self.tk, attr)
AttributeError: '_tkinter.tkapp' object has no attribute 'add'

Explanation of the error and suggestions for ttk.notebook references are
needed.

TIA,

Rich

From mstemper at gmail.com  Fri Jan 15 16:14:26 2021
From: mstemper at gmail.com (Michael F. Stemper)
Date: Fri, 15 Jan 2021 15:14:26 -0600
Subject: why sqrt is not a built-in function?
In-Reply-To: <sqrt-20210115210056@ram.dialup.fu-berlin.de>
References: <be5aba81-08c0-4c71-8188-516ea838ce78n@googlegroups.com>
 <4f734c9c-0732-4239-daad-f9981fadc60e@btinternet.com>
 <mailman.797.1610726008.7193.python-list@python.org>
 <rtspli$cdj$1@dont-email.me> <sqrt-20210115210056@ram.dialup.fu-berlin.de>
Message-ID: <rtt0jp$gq$1@dont-email.me>

On 15/01/2021 14.01, Stefan Ram wrote:
> "Michael F. Stemper" <mstemper at gmail.com> writes:

>>                               Of these, only EcmaScript has
>> Math.sqrt() as part of the language, and that could be partly
>> due to the fact that the language doesn't have any concept of
>> "import" or "include".
> 
>    You do not need to use the import statement in Python,
>    but can also use the expression
> 
> __import__( "math" ).sqrt( 4 )

I had no idea that syntax existed, and find it completely at odds
with The Zen of Python. I'm torn between forgetting that I ever saw
it and using it for some evilly-obfuscated code.

I hope that it satisfies the OP.

-- 
Michael F. Stemper
I feel more like I do now than I did when I came in.

From rosuav at gmail.com  Fri Jan 15 16:20:50 2021
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Sat, 16 Jan 2021 08:20:50 +1100
Subject: why sqrt is not a built-in function?
In-Reply-To: <rtt0jp$gq$1@dont-email.me>
References: <be5aba81-08c0-4c71-8188-516ea838ce78n@googlegroups.com>
 <4f734c9c-0732-4239-daad-f9981fadc60e@btinternet.com>
 <mailman.797.1610726008.7193.python-list@python.org>
 <rtspli$cdj$1@dont-email.me> <sqrt-20210115210056@ram.dialup.fu-berlin.de>
 <rtt0jp$gq$1@dont-email.me>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmoS9aRAFCSRQ5sqk1RBbQTV8FTdL=vHu9eC-DnBir-vHA@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Jan 16, 2021 at 8:16 AM Michael F. Stemper <mstemper at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> On 15/01/2021 14.01, Stefan Ram wrote:
> > "Michael F. Stemper" <mstemper at gmail.com> writes:
>
> >>                               Of these, only EcmaScript has
> >> Math.sqrt() as part of the language, and that could be partly
> >> due to the fact that the language doesn't have any concept of
> >> "import" or "include".
> >
> >    You do not need to use the import statement in Python,
> >    but can also use the expression
> >
> > __import__( "math" ).sqrt( 4 )
>
> I had no idea that syntax existed, and find it completely at odds
> with The Zen of Python. I'm torn between forgetting that I ever saw
> it and using it for some evilly-obfuscated code.
>

Hehe, it's really nothing to do with the Zen; it's playing around with
internals, so you get whatever you get.

I recommend option #2. It is incredibly good fun. For added bonus
obscurity, don't import a module directly; import it from some
unrelated module, such as "from ast import sys" or "from base64 import
re".

ChrisA

From python at mrabarnett.plus.com  Fri Jan 15 16:39:53 2021
From: python at mrabarnett.plus.com (MRAB)
Date: Fri, 15 Jan 2021 21:39:53 +0000
Subject: Writing a Python3 ttk.Notebook
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LNX.2.20.2101151239390.8377@salmo.appl-ecosys.com>
References: <alpine.LNX.2.20.2101151239390.8377@salmo.appl-ecosys.com>
Message-ID: <65aba32e-dd59-f0bd-6f8c-4b584883bb10@mrabarnett.plus.com>

On 2021-01-15 20:51, Rich Shepard wrote:
> I want to replace the menu on my application with the more appropriate
> notebook. After looking at examples in my reference books and on the Web I
> still cannot get it working properly.
> 
> Here's a small example (nbtest.py):
> ---8< -----------------------
> #!/usr/bin/env python3
> 
> import tkinter as tk
> from tkinter import ttk
> from tkinter.ttk import Notebook as n
> 
> class Test(tk.Tk):
> 
>       def __init__(self, *args, **kwargs):
>           super().__init__(*args, **kwargs)
> 
>           # notebook
>           n = ttk.Notebook(self)
> 
>           self.tab1 = ttk.Frame(n) # activities
>           self.tab2 = ttk.Frame(n) # people
>           self.tab3 = ttk.Frame(n) # locations
>           self.tab4 = ttk.Frame(n) # organizations
>           self.tab5 = ttk.Frame(n) # reports
>           self.tab6 = ttk.Frame(n) # lookup tables
> 
>           self.add(tab1, text='Activities')
>           self.add(tab2, text='People')
>           self.add(tab3, text='Locations')
>           self.add(tab4, text='Organizations')
>           self.add(tab5, text='Reports')
>           self.add(tab6, text='Lookups')
> 
You should be adding the frames to the notebook. Also, the tabs are 
'self.tab1', not 'tab1', etc:

          n.add(self.tab1, text='Activities')

Similarly for the others.

>           n.pack(expand = 1, fill ="both")
> 
> if __name__ == "__main__":
>       app = Test()
>       app.mainloop()
> ---->8 -------------------------
> 
> python-3.9.1 returns:
> $ ./nbtest.py
> Traceback (most recent call last):
>     File "/home/rshepard/development/business_tracker/./nbtest.py", line 32, in <module>
>       app = Test()
>     File "/home/rshepard/development/business_tracker/./nbtest.py", line 22, in __init__
>       self.add(tab1, text='Activities')
>     File "/usr/lib64/python3.9/tkinter/__init__.py", line 2346, in __getattr__
>       return getattr(self.tk, attr)
> AttributeError: '_tkinter.tkapp' object has no attribute 'add'
> 
> Explanation of the error and suggestions for ttk.notebook references are
> needed.
> 

From rshepard at appl-ecosys.com  Fri Jan 15 16:51:34 2021
From: rshepard at appl-ecosys.com (Rich Shepard)
Date: Fri, 15 Jan 2021 13:51:34 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Writing a Python3 ttk.Notebook
In-Reply-To: <65aba32e-dd59-f0bd-6f8c-4b584883bb10@mrabarnett.plus.com>
References: <alpine.LNX.2.20.2101151239390.8377@salmo.appl-ecosys.com>
 <65aba32e-dd59-f0bd-6f8c-4b584883bb10@mrabarnett.plus.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.LNX.2.20.2101151349550.8377@salmo.appl-ecosys.com>

On Fri, 15 Jan 2021, MRAB wrote:

> You should be adding the frames to the notebook. Also, the tabs are 
> 'self.tab1', not 'tab1', etc:
>         n.add(self.tab1, text='Activities')
> Similarly for the others.

Thanks. MRAB. This allows me to move on and put pre-built widget pages on
the tabs.

Regards,

Rich

From mstemper at gmail.com  Fri Jan 15 16:49:52 2021
From: mstemper at gmail.com (Michael F. Stemper)
Date: Fri, 15 Jan 2021 15:49:52 -0600
Subject: why sqrt is not a built-in function?
In-Reply-To: <snippets-20210115222439@ram.dialup.fu-berlin.de>
References: <be5aba81-08c0-4c71-8188-516ea838ce78n@googlegroups.com>
 <4f734c9c-0732-4239-daad-f9981fadc60e@btinternet.com>
 <mailman.797.1610726008.7193.python-list@python.org>
 <rtspli$cdj$1@dont-email.me> <sqrt-20210115210056@ram.dialup.fu-berlin.de>
 <rtt0jp$gq$1@dont-email.me> <snippets-20210115222439@ram.dialup.fu-berlin.de>
Message-ID: <rtt2m9$fku$1@dont-email.me>

On 15/01/2021 15.26, Stefan Ram wrote:
> "Michael F. Stemper" <mstemper at gmail.com> writes:
>> On 15/01/2021 14.01, Stefan Ram wrote:
>>> __import__( "math" ).sqrt( 4 )
>> I had no idea that syntax existed, and find it completely at odds
>> with The Zen of Python. I'm torn between forgetting that I ever saw
>> it and using it for some evilly-obfuscated code.
> 
>    When one collects snippets of Python code that are intended
>    to be inserted into programs, a snippet usually would have
>    to consist of two parts: One part to be inserted at the top
>    of the program, into the imports section, and then the actual
>    snippet.

This statement led inevitably to:

 >>> sqrt = __import__("math").sqrt
 >>> sqrt(4)
2.0
 >>>

I don't know why; it just did.

>    "__import__" allows to write snippets that can be inserted
>    as they are without the need to do insertions at two different
>    places. (Possibly with a tool to later normalize the insertions
>    to the usual style.)

That's much too mature. Es ist Feierabend!

-- 
Michael F. Stemper
2 Chronicles 19:7

From rosuav at gmail.com  Fri Jan 15 17:01:20 2021
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Sat, 16 Jan 2021 09:01:20 +1100
Subject: why sqrt is not a built-in function?
In-Reply-To: <rtt2m9$fku$1@dont-email.me>
References: <be5aba81-08c0-4c71-8188-516ea838ce78n@googlegroups.com>
 <4f734c9c-0732-4239-daad-f9981fadc60e@btinternet.com>
 <mailman.797.1610726008.7193.python-list@python.org>
 <rtspli$cdj$1@dont-email.me> <sqrt-20210115210056@ram.dialup.fu-berlin.de>
 <rtt0jp$gq$1@dont-email.me> <snippets-20210115222439@ram.dialup.fu-berlin.de>
 <rtt2m9$fku$1@dont-email.me>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmrvx5w4KutbQhX9ps++cO5nW0W3k3nO-nEXK38MhhPLOg@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Jan 16, 2021 at 8:56 AM Michael F. Stemper <mstemper at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> On 15/01/2021 15.26, Stefan Ram wrote:
> > "Michael F. Stemper" <mstemper at gmail.com> writes:
> >> On 15/01/2021 14.01, Stefan Ram wrote:
> >>> __import__( "math" ).sqrt( 4 )
> >> I had no idea that syntax existed, and find it completely at odds
> >> with The Zen of Python. I'm torn between forgetting that I ever saw
> >> it and using it for some evilly-obfuscated code.
> >
> >    When one collects snippets of Python code that are intended
> >    to be inserted into programs, a snippet usually would have
> >    to consist of two parts: One part to be inserted at the top
> >    of the program, into the imports section, and then the actual
> >    snippet.
> >    "__import__" allows to write snippets that can be inserted
> >    as they are without the need to do insertions at two different
> >    places. (Possibly with a tool to later normalize the insertions
> >    to the usual style.)

I'm not sure how that works. In Python, you can just put the imports
where you want them - why would the __import__ function be needed?

I am confuzzed.

ChrisA

From PythonList at DancesWithMice.info  Fri Jan 15 17:12:51 2021
From: PythonList at DancesWithMice.info (dn)
Date: Sat, 16 Jan 2021 11:12:51 +1300
Subject: why sqrt is not a built-in function?
In-Reply-To: <rtt2m9$fku$1@dont-email.me>
References: <be5aba81-08c0-4c71-8188-516ea838ce78n@googlegroups.com>
 <4f734c9c-0732-4239-daad-f9981fadc60e@btinternet.com>
 <mailman.797.1610726008.7193.python-list@python.org>
 <rtspli$cdj$1@dont-email.me> <sqrt-20210115210056@ram.dialup.fu-berlin.de>
 <rtt0jp$gq$1@dont-email.me> <snippets-20210115222439@ram.dialup.fu-berlin.de>
 <rtt2m9$fku$1@dont-email.me>
Message-ID: <163bec9a-bd50-b73d-2298-21ba0f2c093e@DancesWithMice.info>

On 16/01/2021 10.49, Michael F. Stemper wrote:
...

> Es ist Feierabend


You had me there for a moment, because spotting a 'double meaning"
(actually triple) my mind succumbing to dissonance, refused to translate
(into English), instead latching onto the last two syllables:-

At one time, tech-jargon included the term "abend". It meant "abnormal
end", and was a more palatable term (to someone) for "crash" - a bit
like the airline which talked of "non-operational termination" instead
of using the same (unpalatable) word!


Yes, not only might it have been literally the end of (your) day. This
conversation does seem to have reached the point of reductio ad absurdum!
-- 
Regards =dn

From grant.b.edwards at gmail.com  Fri Jan 15 15:58:05 2021
From: grant.b.edwards at gmail.com (Grant Edwards)
Date: Fri, 15 Jan 2021 20:58:05 -0000 (UTC)
Subject: How to flush <stdio.h>'s stdout stream?
References: <rtsnj5$f6a$1@ciao.gmane.io>
 <CACL+1atfX=dzLG4PHvJg_MmS348qE2kQv6Zd8BeXrU+17uU7OQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <rtsvkt$l56$1@ciao.gmane.io>

On 2021-01-15, Eryk Sun <eryksun at gmail.com> wrote:
> On 1/15/21, Grant Edwards <grant.b.edwards at gmail.com> wrote:
>> In Python 3.7+, how does one flush the stdout FILE stream? I mean the
>> FILE *declared as 'stdio' in <stdio.h>. I'm _not_ asking how to flush the
>> Python file object sys.stdio.
>
> You can flush all output streams via C fflush(NULL).

Brilliant! I read through the fflush() man page earlier but missed that.

fflush(NULL) should work.

> If it has to be just stdout, the code will vary by platform. As far
> as I know, there is no standard way at the ABI level to reference C
> stdin, stdout, and stderr. Typically these are macros at the API
> level. The macro might directly reference the FILE record, or maybe
> it calls an inline function that returns the reference.

That's what I was trying to figure out: whether 'stdio' was actually a
global symbol. On Linux it appears to be. I was afraid it was a macro
that referred indirectly to some per-thread storage or something...

> CPython doesn't have a common wrapper function for this. With
> ctypes, you'll have to special case common platform CRTs such as
> glibc in Linux and ucrt in Windows (possible, but undocumented). For
> example:
>
>     import sys
>     import time
>     import ctypes
>
>     if sys.platform == 'win32' and sys.version_info >= (3, 5):
>         libc = ucrt = ctypes.CDLL('ucrtbase', use_errno=True)
>         IOLBF = 0x0040
>         libc.__acrt_iob_func.restype = ctypes.c_void_p
>         stdout = ctypes.c_void_p(libc.__acrt_iob_func(1))
>     elif sys.platform == 'linux':
>         libc = cglobal = ctypes.CDLL(None, use_errno=True)
>         IOLBF = 1
>         stdout = ctypes.c_void_p.in_dll(libc, 'stdout')

That part I hadn't figured out. I've always used ctypes to call
functions in .so libraries that were explicitly loaded by the Python
app.



From grant.b.edwards at gmail.com  Fri Jan 15 16:17:22 2021
From: grant.b.edwards at gmail.com (Grant Edwards)
Date: Fri, 15 Jan 2021 21:17:22 -0000 (UTC)
Subject: Exploring terminfo
References: <rtpqh8$16kg$1@ciao.gmane.io> <rts4ov$10b4$1@ciao.gmane.io>
 <rtsjht$119t$1@ciao.gmane.io> <rtsnb4$i53$1@ciao.gmane.io>
Message-ID: <rtt0p2$l56$2@ciao.gmane.io>

On 2021-01-15, Alan Gauld via Python-list <python-list at python.org> wrote:
> On 15/01/2021 17:31, Grant Edwards wrote:
>
>>>> cur.putp(cls)
>>>> name = input("Hello, what's your name? ")
>>>>
>>>> cur.putp(bold)
>>>> print("Nice to meet you ", name)
>
>
>>>     putp(clr);
>>>     putp(bold);
>>>     printf("Enter a name: ");
>>>     fgets(line, sizeof(line),stdin);
>>>
>>>     printf("Hello %s\n", line);
>>>     exit(0);
>
>> One difference is that the name prompt is being written to stdout in
>> the C version and stderr in the Python version. But I don't see why
>> that would matter.
>
> That could make a big difference, the putp() function specifically
> states that it writes to stdout.
>
>> I suspect that the problem is that putp is writing to the libc
>> "stdout" FILE stream that's declaredin <stdio.h>. That stream
>> layer/object has buffering that is invisible to Python. 
>
> That would indeed explain it.
>
>> Now the question: is there a way to tell the curses module to flush
>> its stdout FILE stream?
>
> Indeed. But unless it's trivial it rather defeats the concept of
> using the terminfo functions to create text effects without
> diving into full curses screen control! And that was what I
> was hoping to uncover.
>
> I wonder if I can use the os module to mess with the
> file descriptors.... hmmm.

Yes, but that doesn't help. You need to flush the libc FILE *stdio not
the underlying file descriptor. Here's how you do it:


  import os,ctypes,sys,time
  
  libc = ctypes.CDLL(None, use_errno=True)
  
  import curses as cur
  cur.setupterm()
  
  bold = cur.tigetstr('bold')
  norm = cur.tigetstr('sgr0')
  cls = cur.tigetstr('clear')
  
  cur.putp(cls)
  libc.fflush(None)
  name = input("Enter your name: ")
  cur.putp(bold)
  libc.fflush(None)
  sys.stdout.write("\nNice to meet you " + name + "\n")
  cur.putp(norm);
  libc.fflush(None)
  input("Hit enter to exit")

The call to libc.fflush(None) flushes all output FILE * streams. If
you really just want to flush stdout, to flush just stdout:


  import os,ctypes,sys,time

  libc = ctypes.CDLL(None, use_errno=True)
  stdout = ctypes.c_void_p.in_dll(libc, 'stdout')

  import curses as cur
  cur.setupterm()

  bold = cur.tigetstr('bold')
  norm = cur.tigetstr('sgr0')
  cls = cur.tigetstr('clear')

  cur.putp(cls)
  libc.fflush(stdout)
  name = input("Enter your name: ")
  cur.putp(bold)
  libc.fflush(stdout)
  sys.stdout.write("\nNice to meet you " + name + "\n")
  cur.putp(norm);
  libc.fflush(stdout)
  input("Hit enter to exit")

I'd wrap cur.putp() to make it less ugly:

  import os,ctypes,sys,time

  libc = ctypes.CDLL(None, use_errno=True)
  stdout = ctypes.c_void_p.in_dll(libc, 'stdout')

  import curses as cur
  cur.setupterm()

  def putp(*args):
      sys.stderr.flush()
      sys.stdout.flush()
      cur.putp(*args)
      libc.fflush(stdout)

  bold = cur.tigetstr('bold')
  norm = cur.tigetstr('sgr0')
  cls = cur.tigetstr('clear')

  putp(cls)

  name = input("Enter your name: ")

  putp(bold)
  print("Nice to meet you",name)
  putp(norm);

  input("Hit enter to exit")


From grant.b.edwards at gmail.com  Fri Jan 15 17:09:06 2021
From: grant.b.edwards at gmail.com (Grant Edwards)
Date: Fri, 15 Jan 2021 22:09:06 -0000 (UTC)
Subject: Exploring terminfo
References: <rtpqh8$16kg$1@ciao.gmane.io> <rts4ov$10b4$1@ciao.gmane.io>
 <rtsjht$119t$1@ciao.gmane.io> <rtsnb4$i53$1@ciao.gmane.io>
 <rtsu5r$e5k$1@ciao.gmane.io>
Message-ID: <rtt3q2$f4d$1@ciao.gmane.io>

On 2021-01-15, Grant Edwards <grant.b.edwards at gmail.com> wrote:
> On 2021-01-15, Alan Gauld via Python-list <python-list at python.org> wrote:
>> On 15/01/2021 17:31, Grant Edwards wrote:
>>
>>> I suspect that the problem is that putp is writing to the libc
>>> "stdout" FILE stream that's declaredin <stdio.h>. That stream
>>> layer/object has buffering that is invisible to Python. 
>>
>> That would indeed explain it.
>>
>>> Now the question: is there a way to tell the curses module to flush
>>> its stdout FILE stream?
>>
>> Indeed. But unless it's trivial it rather defeats the concept of
>> using the terminfo functions to create text effects without
>> diving into full curses screen control!
>
> Indeed, that appears to be the case for Python 3.x (unless we can
> figure out a way to flush <stdio.h>'s FILE *stdio stream from Python).
> I started a separate thread about that specific topic.

I've already posted code showing how to call fflush(FILE *stdio). An
even cleaner solution is avoid using the libc FILE* stuff
entirely. Just grab the strings you need from ncurses and output them
via Pythons I/O streams:

    import curses
    curses.setupterm()

    bold = curses.tigetstr('bold').decode('ascii')
    norm = curses.tigetstr('sgr0').decode('ascii')
    cls = curses.tigetstr('clear').decode('ascii')

    print(cls,end='')

    name = input("enter name: ")

    print(f'{bold}Hi there {name}{norm}')

    input("press enter to exit: ")


Though that seems to work fine with urxvt, it _might_ not be quite
kosher according the ncurses man page, since it says:

  Parameterized strings should be passed through tparm to instantiate
  them.  All terminfo strings (including the output of tparm) should be
  printed with tputs or putp.

Apparently that's mainly so that it can "apply padding information". I
have no idea what that means:

  The tputs routine applies padding information to the string str and
  outputs it:

Entities that are parameterized (e.g. goto location) would need to be
passed through curses.tiparm() before they're decoded and printed. I'm
goign to try that next.


From * at eli.users.panix.com  Fri Jan 15 17:16:30 2021
From: * at eli.users.panix.com (Eli the Bearded)
Date: Fri, 15 Jan 2021 22:16:30 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: why sqrt is not a built-in function?
References: <be5aba81-08c0-4c71-8188-516ea838ce78n@googlegroups.com>
 <rtt0jp$gq$1@dont-email.me>
 <CAPTjJmoS9aRAFCSRQ5sqk1RBbQTV8FTdL=vHu9eC-DnBir-vHA@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.811.1610745664.7193.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <eli$2101151711@qaz.wtf>

In comp.lang.python, Chris Angelico  <rosuav at gmail.com> wrote:
> Michael F. Stemper <mstemper at gmail.com> wrote:
>> On 15/01/2021 14.01, Stefan Ram wrote:
>>> __import__( "math" ).sqrt( 4 )
>> I had no idea that syntax existed, and find it completely at odds
>> with The Zen of Python. I'm torn between forgetting that I ever saw
>> it and using it for some evilly-obfuscated code.
> I recommend option #2. It is incredibly good fun. For added bonus
> obscurity, don't import a module directly; import it from some
> unrelated module, such as "from ast import sys" or "from base64 import
> re".

Is there an Obfuscated Python contest, like there is with C? I know the
C ones are often quite interesting, like the 2020 entry that implements
tic-tac-toe in "Turing complete" sub-language of printf() format strings.
(Carlini, http://www.ioccc.org/years.html#2020 )

Elijah
------
with the complexity of fitting the 200k format into a 2k source file

From rosuav at gmail.com  Fri Jan 15 17:28:20 2021
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Sat, 16 Jan 2021 09:28:20 +1100
Subject: why sqrt is not a built-in function?
In-Reply-To: <eli$2101151711@qaz.wtf>
References: <be5aba81-08c0-4c71-8188-516ea838ce78n@googlegroups.com>
 <rtt0jp$gq$1@dont-email.me>
 <CAPTjJmoS9aRAFCSRQ5sqk1RBbQTV8FTdL=vHu9eC-DnBir-vHA@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.811.1610745664.7193.python-list@python.org> <eli$2101151711@qaz.wtf>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmqGkWV8z843pE5sM8TvQyT6wB_XPFS39vOdUAoLP_ROwQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Jan 16, 2021 at 9:25 AM Eli the Bearded <*@eli.users.panix.com> wrote:
>
> In comp.lang.python, Chris Angelico  <rosuav at gmail.com> wrote:
> > Michael F. Stemper <mstemper at gmail.com> wrote:
> >> On 15/01/2021 14.01, Stefan Ram wrote:
> >>> __import__( "math" ).sqrt( 4 )
> >> I had no idea that syntax existed, and find it completely at odds
> >> with The Zen of Python. I'm torn between forgetting that I ever saw
> >> it and using it for some evilly-obfuscated code.
> > I recommend option #2. It is incredibly good fun. For added bonus
> > obscurity, don't import a module directly; import it from some
> > unrelated module, such as "from ast import sys" or "from base64 import
> > re".
>
> Is there an Obfuscated Python contest, like there is with C? I know the
> C ones are often quite interesting, like the 2020 entry that implements
> tic-tac-toe in "Turing complete" sub-language of printf() format strings.
> (Carlini, http://www.ioccc.org/years.html#2020 )
>

No there isn't, but similar abominations have showed up in security
testing. Attempts to (a) create a sandboxed Python, and then (b) break
out of said sandbox, have produced some fairly terrifying (and quite
awesome) demonstrations.

ChrisA

From rshepard at appl-ecosys.com  Fri Jan 15 17:32:11 2021
From: rshepard at appl-ecosys.com (Rich Shepard)
Date: Fri, 15 Jan 2021 14:32:11 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Writing a Python3 ttk.Notebook
In-Reply-To: <q8340g56rrnd6ddukll20femeu0bn6ad3m@4ax.com>
References: <alpine.LNX.2.20.2101151239390.8377@salmo.appl-ecosys.com>
 <q8340g56rrnd6ddukll20femeu0bn6ad3m@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.LNX.2.20.2101151428070.8377@salmo.appl-ecosys.com>

On Fri, 15 Jan 2021, Dennis Lee Bieber wrote:

> 	Off-hand, I'd suspect you should be adding these to the NOTEBOOK
> object "n".

Dennis,

You're correct. The MWE didn't have the proper syntax.

Now, the problem is the notebook doesn't display its tabs on the main
window, while the proper syntax on a separate file opens a window with the
tabs displayed.

The file 'application.py' is attached. If I had better docs here I could
probably work a lot of this out by myself.

Regards,

Rich
-------------- next part --------------
#!/usr/bin/env python3

# main file to start application.

from os import environ
import sys
from datetime import datetime
import tkinter as tk
from tkinter import ttk
from tkinter.ttk import Notebook as nb
from tkinter import filedialog
from tkinter import messagebox
from tkinter.font import nametofont
from functools import partial
import model as m
import views as v
import controller as c


class Application(tk.Tk):
    """ Application root window """

    def __init__(self, *args, **kwargs):
        super().__init__(*args, **kwargs)

        # the top level frame holding notebook, status bar, etc.
        self.columnconfigure(0, weight=1)   # helps with frame/app resizing on the fly
        self.rowconfigure(0, weight=1)      # helps with frame/app resizing on the fly
        # open application centered on screen; set window width and height
        self.appwidth = 1000
        self.appheight = 800
        # get screen width and height
        self.scrwidth = self.winfo_screenwidth()
        self.scrheight = self.winfo_screenheight()
        # formula to find screen center
        self.xLeft = (self.scrwidth/2) - (self.appwidth/2)
        self.yTop = (self.scrheight/2) - (self.appheight/2)
        # set geometry
        self.geometry(str(self.appwidth) + "x" + str(self.appheight) +
                      "+" + str(int(self.xLeft)) + "+" + str(int(self.yTop)))
        
        self.title("Main Window Title Goes Here")
        self.resizable(width=True, height=True)

        datestring = datetime.today().strftime("%Y-%m-%d")

        # variables for adjusting font size and style
        self.font_bold = tk.BooleanVar()
        self.font_size = tk.IntVar()

        def set_font(*args):
            self.font_spec = 'TkDefaultFont {size} {bold}'.format(
                size=font_size.get(),
                bold='bold' if font_bold.get() else '')
            self.label.config(font=font_spec)
            self.font_bold.trace('w', set_font)
            self.font_size.trace('w', set_font)
        
        # status bar
        self.status = tk.StringVar()
        self.statusbar = ttk.Label(self, textvariable=self.status)
        self.statusbar.grid(sticky="we", row=3, padx=10)

        # notebook
        nb = ttk.Notebook(self)

        self.tab1 = ttk.Frame(nb) # activities
        self.tab2 = ttk.Frame(nb) # people
        self.tab3 = ttk.Frame(nb) # locations
        self.tab4 = ttk.Frame(nb) # organizations
        self.tab5 = ttk.Frame(nb) # reports
        self.tab6 = ttk.Frame(nb) # lookup tables
        
        nb.add(self.tab1, text='Activities')
        nb.add(self.tab2, text='People')
        nb.add(self.tab3, text='Locations')
        nb.add(self.tab4, text='Organizationbs')
        nb.add(self.tab5, text='Reports')
        nb.add(self.tab6, text='Lookups')
        
                
if __name__ == "__main__":
    app = Application()
    app.mainloop()

From grant.b.edwards at gmail.com  Fri Jan 15 17:29:46 2021
From: grant.b.edwards at gmail.com (Grant Edwards)
Date: Fri, 15 Jan 2021 22:29:46 -0000 (UTC)
Subject: Exploring terminfo
References: <rtpqh8$16kg$1@ciao.gmane.io> <rts4ov$10b4$1@ciao.gmane.io>
 <rtsjht$119t$1@ciao.gmane.io> <rtsnb4$i53$1@ciao.gmane.io>
 <rtsu5r$e5k$1@ciao.gmane.io> <rtt3q2$f4d$1@ciao.gmane.io>
Message-ID: <rtt50q$15ge$1@ciao.gmane.io>

On 2021-01-15, Grant Edwards <grant.b.edwards at gmail.com> wrote:

> Entities that are parameterized (e.g. goto location) would need to be
> passed through curses.tiparm() before they're decoded and printed. I'm
> goign to try that next.

The curses module doesn't expose tiparm, but you can use tparm
instead:

    #!/usr/bin/python
    import curses,sys
    
    curses.setupterm()
    
    write = sys.stdout.write
    
    bold = curses.tigetstr('bold').decode('ascii')
    norm = curses.tigetstr('sgr0').decode('ascii')
    cls = curses.tigetstr('clear').decode('ascii')
    cup = curses.tigetstr('cup')
    
    def goto(row,column):
        write(curses.tparm(cup,row,column).decode('ascii'))
    
    def clear():
        write(cls)
    
    clear()    
    name = input("enter name: ")
    
    for row in [3,5,10,20]:
        goto(row, row+5)
        write(f'{bold}Hi there {name}{norm}')
        goto(row+1, row+6)
        write(f'Hi there {name}')
    
    goto(24,0)    
    input("press enter to exit: ")
    clear()


From PythonList at DancesWithMice.info  Fri Jan 15 17:41:50 2021
From: PythonList at DancesWithMice.info (dn)
Date: Sat, 16 Jan 2021 11:41:50 +1300
Subject: why sqrt is not a built-in function?
In-Reply-To: <be5aba81-08c0-4c71-8188-516ea838ce78n@googlegroups.com>
References: <be5aba81-08c0-4c71-8188-516ea838ce78n@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <374cc973-e18a-8880-a717-9de545d64ef3@DancesWithMice.info>

On 15/01/2021 06.44, Denys Contant wrote:
> I don't understand why sqrt is not a built-in function. 
> Why do we have to first import the function from the math module?
> I use it ALL THE TIME!
> 
> That felt good. Thank you.


Are you 'venting', or do you have a specific frustration-induced question?


Much of my training work centers on HTML5. An issue which you will have
experienced as a user (if not an HTML5 coder), is how long it takes for
certain pages to load or to respond to a 'click'.

We talk of the "weight" of the page. Sadly, in a bid to "capture
eye-balls" and/or to prove how much smarter 'I' am (than any other
web-author/JavaScript-er), there are (far too) many reasons why
web-pages are adorned and accompanied by myriad scripts (and likely,
whole libraries/frameworks), and thus become slow (or 'heavy').


What does this have to do with Python?

As an "interpreted language" Python will (tend to) execute slowly when
compared with a "compiled language".
(ignoring 'shades and grades', and purity of definition)

Another form of delay/slow-ness, is how long it takes a program(me) to
start (in the eyes of the user). Another form of 'weight', and component
of start-up time is how much storage is required to hold the code
(excluding any data).


An advantage of Python is that it has a small 'core'. Mark Summerfield
(author) refers to it as "Python's beautiful heart". The minimised core
(or should that be "optimised"?) is fast to load, and occupies minimal
resource.

As a consequence, you and I may well grumble that we have to import the
math library - every time we code some non-trivial calculation. However,
in doing-so we (should) compute a conscious cost-benefit analysis:
knowing that to include the library will incur a resource-cost, but that
its facilities will improve the accuracy and/or efficiency (eg speed) of
our work. OK, so sign me up!

Contrarily, people who don't 'work with numbers', eg other threads
'here' discussing character manipulation; don't experience any longer
waiting-time or 'suffer' extra resource-cost, due to loading the math
library, from which they/their code will receive no benefit at all!


Thus, one of the philosophies of Python I keenly appreciate (that makes
me "[feel] good", to borrow your words), is that not only are "batteries
included", but I don't have to carry-around any 'spare batteries' that I
don't actually need right now!

(even more applicable when using MicroPython, etc)
-- 
Regards =dn

From mstemper at gmail.com  Fri Jan 15 17:40:00 2021
From: mstemper at gmail.com (Michael F. Stemper)
Date: Fri, 15 Jan 2021 16:40:00 -0600
Subject: why sqrt is not a built-in function?
In-Reply-To: <mailman.814.1610748093.7193.python-list@python.org>
References: <be5aba81-08c0-4c71-8188-516ea838ce78n@googlegroups.com>
 <4f734c9c-0732-4239-daad-f9981fadc60e@btinternet.com>
 <mailman.797.1610726008.7193.python-list@python.org>
 <rtspli$cdj$1@dont-email.me> <sqrt-20210115210056@ram.dialup.fu-berlin.de>
 <rtt0jp$gq$1@dont-email.me> <snippets-20210115222439@ram.dialup.fu-berlin.de>
 <rtt2m9$fku$1@dont-email.me>
 <CAPTjJmrvx5w4KutbQhX9ps++cO5nW0W3k3nO-nEXK38MhhPLOg@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.814.1610748093.7193.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <rtt5k7$44s$1@dont-email.me>

On 15/01/2021 16.01, Chris Angelico wrote:
> On Sat, Jan 16, 2021 at 8:56 AM Michael F. Stemper <mstemper at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> On 15/01/2021 15.26, Stefan Ram wrote:
>>> "Michael F. Stemper" <mstemper at gmail.com> writes:
>>>> On 15/01/2021 14.01, Stefan Ram wrote:

>>>>> __import__( "math" ).sqrt( 4 )
>>>> I had no idea that syntax existed, and find it completely at odds
>>>> with The Zen of Python. I'm torn between forgetting that I ever saw
>>>> it and using it for some evilly-obfuscated code.
>>>
>>>     When one collects snippets of Python code that are intended
>>>     to be inserted into programs, a snippet usually would have
>>>     to consist of two parts: One part to be inserted at the top
>>>     of the program, into the imports section, and then the actual
>>>     snippet.
>>>     "__import__" allows to write snippets that can be inserted
>>>     as they are without the need to do insertions at two different
>>>     places. (Possibly with a tool to later normalize the insertions
>>>     to the usual style.)
> 
> I'm not sure how that works. In Python, you can just put the imports
> where you want them - why would the __import__ function be needed?

I have no idea what PEP-8 has to say on the subject. However, my coding
style *generally* puts all of the imports up front, right after the
prologue (program description, revision history, uzw).

> I am confuzzed.

It's a common condition.


-- 
Michael F. Stemper
Life's too important to take seriously.

From rosuav at gmail.com  Fri Jan 15 17:57:28 2021
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Sat, 16 Jan 2021 09:57:28 +1100
Subject: why sqrt is not a built-in function?
In-Reply-To: <rtt5k7$44s$1@dont-email.me>
References: <be5aba81-08c0-4c71-8188-516ea838ce78n@googlegroups.com>
 <4f734c9c-0732-4239-daad-f9981fadc60e@btinternet.com>
 <mailman.797.1610726008.7193.python-list@python.org>
 <rtspli$cdj$1@dont-email.me> <sqrt-20210115210056@ram.dialup.fu-berlin.de>
 <rtt0jp$gq$1@dont-email.me> <snippets-20210115222439@ram.dialup.fu-berlin.de>
 <rtt2m9$fku$1@dont-email.me>
 <CAPTjJmrvx5w4KutbQhX9ps++cO5nW0W3k3nO-nEXK38MhhPLOg@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.814.1610748093.7193.python-list@python.org>
 <rtt5k7$44s$1@dont-email.me>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmq=P1b+BMSH2WL5OXTudwSXW9tghgS242a3cUJRmS0LvQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Jan 16, 2021 at 9:47 AM Michael F. Stemper <mstemper at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> On 15/01/2021 16.01, Chris Angelico wrote:
> > On Sat, Jan 16, 2021 at 8:56 AM Michael F. Stemper <mstemper at gmail.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> On 15/01/2021 15.26, Stefan Ram wrote:
> >>> "Michael F. Stemper" <mstemper at gmail.com> writes:
> >>>> On 15/01/2021 14.01, Stefan Ram wrote:
>
> >>>>> __import__( "math" ).sqrt( 4 )
> >>>> I had no idea that syntax existed, and find it completely at odds
> >>>> with The Zen of Python. I'm torn between forgetting that I ever saw
> >>>> it and using it for some evilly-obfuscated code.
> >>>
> >>>     When one collects snippets of Python code that are intended
> >>>     to be inserted into programs, a snippet usually would have
> >>>     to consist of two parts: One part to be inserted at the top
> >>>     of the program, into the imports section, and then the actual
> >>>     snippet.
> >>>     "__import__" allows to write snippets that can be inserted
> >>>     as they are without the need to do insertions at two different
> >>>     places. (Possibly with a tool to later normalize the insertions
> >>>     to the usual style.)
> >
> > I'm not sure how that works. In Python, you can just put the imports
> > where you want them - why would the __import__ function be needed?
>
> I have no idea what PEP-8 has to say on the subject. However, my coding
> style *generally* puts all of the imports up front, right after the
> prologue (program description, revision history, uzw).

Sure, and that's how I'd normally code too. But if I give you a
snippet like this:

from collections import Counter
ltr_weights = ''.join(Counter(text) & Counter(string.ascii_letters)).elements())

then it's absolutely fine to keep the import next to the code. There's
no need to go to the hassle of splitting the snippet; if you want to,
you can, but the snippet is still a single thing.

The __import__ function doesn't add anything here.

ChrisA

From rshepard at appl-ecosys.com  Fri Jan 15 18:09:24 2021
From: rshepard at appl-ecosys.com (Rich Shepard)
Date: Fri, 15 Jan 2021 15:09:24 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Writing a Python3 ttk.Notebook
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LNX.2.20.2101151428070.8377@salmo.appl-ecosys.com>
References: <alpine.LNX.2.20.2101151239390.8377@salmo.appl-ecosys.com>
 <q8340g56rrnd6ddukll20femeu0bn6ad3m@4ax.com>
 <alpine.LNX.2.20.2101151428070.8377@salmo.appl-ecosys.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.LNX.2.20.2101151453470.8377@salmo.appl-ecosys.com>

On Fri, 15 Jan 2021, Rich Shepard wrote:

> The file 'application.py' is attached. If I had better docs here I could
> probably work a lot of this out by myself.

Progress: I didn't put the notebook on the main window using grid. Now I
need to find how to specify the position so it's at the top of the window.
I'll read the options on grid.

Rich

From PythonList at DancesWithMice.info  Fri Jan 15 18:17:01 2021
From: PythonList at DancesWithMice.info (dn)
Date: Sat, 16 Jan 2021 12:17:01 +1300
Subject: why sqrt is not a built-in function?
In-Reply-To: <rtt5k7$44s$1@dont-email.me>
References: <be5aba81-08c0-4c71-8188-516ea838ce78n@googlegroups.com>
 <4f734c9c-0732-4239-daad-f9981fadc60e@btinternet.com>
 <mailman.797.1610726008.7193.python-list@python.org>
 <rtspli$cdj$1@dont-email.me> <sqrt-20210115210056@ram.dialup.fu-berlin.de>
 <rtt0jp$gq$1@dont-email.me> <snippets-20210115222439@ram.dialup.fu-berlin.de>
 <rtt2m9$fku$1@dont-email.me>
 <CAPTjJmrvx5w4KutbQhX9ps++cO5nW0W3k3nO-nEXK38MhhPLOg@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.814.1610748093.7193.python-list@python.org>
 <rtt5k7$44s$1@dont-email.me>
Message-ID: <4bc9c7bb-1bff-32da-4675-81955d0588b1@DancesWithMice.info>

On 16/01/2021 11.40, Michael F. Stemper wrote:
> On 15/01/2021 16.01, Chris Angelico wrote:
>> On Sat, Jan 16, 2021 at 8:56 AM Michael F. Stemper
>> <mstemper at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> On 15/01/2021 15.26, Stefan Ram wrote:
>>>> "Michael F. Stemper" <mstemper at gmail.com> writes:
>>>>> On 15/01/2021 14.01, Stefan Ram wrote:
> 
>>>>>> __import__( "math" ).sqrt( 4 )
>>>>> I had no idea that syntax existed, and find it completely at odds
>>>>> with The Zen of Python. I'm torn between forgetting that I ever saw
>>>>> it and using it for some evilly-obfuscated code.
>>>>
>>>> ??? When one collects snippets of Python code that are intended
>>>> ??? to be inserted into programs, a snippet usually would have
>>>> ??? to consist of two parts: One part to be inserted at the top
>>>> ??? of the program, into the imports section, and then the actual
>>>> ??? snippet.
>>>> ??? "__import__" allows to write snippets that can be inserted
>>>> ??? as they are without the need to do insertions at two different
>>>> ??? places. (Possibly with a tool to later normalize the insertions
>>>> ??? to the usual style.)
>>
>> I'm not sure how that works. In Python, you can just put the imports
>> where you want them - why would the __import__ function be needed?

import is 'syntactic sugar' for __import__().

Have you not heard that "sugar is the new smoking"? We're being
encouraged to cut-back or giving it up completely...


More seriously, it's like creating a class object by

    MyClass = type('MyClass', (), {})

whereas it's far easier (for most of us) to use

    class MyClass( etc )

However, when the power and/or dynamic possibilities of the underlying
code-construct is/are required...


> I have no idea what PEP-8 has to say on the subject. However, my coding
> style *generally* puts all of the imports up front, right after the
> prologue (program description, revision history, uzw).

This is indeed received-wisdom.

However it does not disallow (yuk: double-negative!) coding an import
statement elsewhere, eg a routine which is only executed during some
invocations, but not others.


What you may like to consider about "prolog[ue]s" is whether they belong
'in' the code (plenty of arguments 'for') or within the VCS (plenty of
arguments here too)...

eg1: how easy is it to establish when a particular decision/code-change
was made (more than one week ago)? - particularly if changes were
subsequent made 'on top of' that change?

eg2: is it a good idea to use 'Python constants' to display the
program(me) name and (perhaps) a version number on the
terminal/application window?


>> I am confuzzed.
> 
> It's a common condition.

There are three components:
1 From the Greek: "con" meaning 'against' or 'unable'.
2 From tech-jargon (and the Australian habit of shortening every word in
the English language): "fuzz" is the contraction of two highly-technical
terms, famously applied in intro courses and by naive job-interviewers.
3 From English: the suffix "ed" meaning past tense.

Thus, (smirking!) "confuzzed" is the psychological term for people who
have never been able to bend their minds around the "fizz-buzz" coding
challenge.


PS am running for cover before @Chris reads this...
-- 
Regards =dn

From rosuav at gmail.com  Fri Jan 15 18:20:02 2021
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Sat, 16 Jan 2021 10:20:02 +1100
Subject: why sqrt is not a built-in function?
In-Reply-To: <4bc9c7bb-1bff-32da-4675-81955d0588b1@DancesWithMice.info>
References: <be5aba81-08c0-4c71-8188-516ea838ce78n@googlegroups.com>
 <4f734c9c-0732-4239-daad-f9981fadc60e@btinternet.com>
 <mailman.797.1610726008.7193.python-list@python.org>
 <rtspli$cdj$1@dont-email.me> <sqrt-20210115210056@ram.dialup.fu-berlin.de>
 <rtt0jp$gq$1@dont-email.me> <snippets-20210115222439@ram.dialup.fu-berlin.de>
 <rtt2m9$fku$1@dont-email.me>
 <CAPTjJmrvx5w4KutbQhX9ps++cO5nW0W3k3nO-nEXK38MhhPLOg@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.814.1610748093.7193.python-list@python.org>
 <rtt5k7$44s$1@dont-email.me>
 <4bc9c7bb-1bff-32da-4675-81955d0588b1@DancesWithMice.info>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmqvK44MKv9ErDEXRbNBxpZFnnoYs=bo5UT=DmZqbQCJdg@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Jan 16, 2021 at 10:18 AM dn via Python-list
<python-list at python.org> wrote:
> >> I am confuzzed.
> >
> > It's a common condition.
>
> There are three components:
> 1 From the Greek: "con" meaning 'against' or 'unable'.
> 2 From tech-jargon (and the Australian habit of shortening every word in
> the English language): "fuzz" is the contraction of two highly-technical
> terms, famously applied in intro courses and by naive job-interviewers.
> 3 From English: the suffix "ed" meaning past tense.
>
> Thus, (smirking!) "confuzzed" is the psychological term for people who
> have never been able to bend their minds around the "fizz-buzz" coding
> challenge.
>
>
> PS am running for cover before @Chris reads this...

Good idea, you never know what I might have been drinking, and
therefore what materials could have been sprayed across the screen
when I read that! :D

ChrisA

From rshepard at appl-ecosys.com  Fri Jan 15 19:16:32 2021
From: rshepard at appl-ecosys.com (Rich Shepard)
Date: Fri, 15 Jan 2021 16:16:32 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Writing a Python3 ttk.Notebook
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LNX.2.20.2101151453470.8377@salmo.appl-ecosys.com>
References: <alpine.LNX.2.20.2101151239390.8377@salmo.appl-ecosys.com>
 <q8340g56rrnd6ddukll20femeu0bn6ad3m@4ax.com>
 <alpine.LNX.2.20.2101151428070.8377@salmo.appl-ecosys.com>
 <alpine.LNX.2.20.2101151453470.8377@salmo.appl-ecosys.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.LNX.2.20.2101151611100.8377@salmo.appl-ecosys.com>

On Fri, 15 Jan 2021, Rich Shepard wrote:

> Progress: I didn't put the notebook on the main window using grid. Now I
> need to find how to specify the position so it's at the top of the window.
> I'll read the options on grid.

The notebook tabs are placed on the grid as nb.grid(row=0, column=0,
columnspan=6). But, it's in the center of the main frame and small.

All the references I've found in Tkinter books and on the web have small,
stand-alone, samples of notebooks. Is
<https://www.tcl.tk/man/tcl8.5/TkCmd/ttk_notebook.htm> the best and most
complete reference for learning how to apply a ttk.Notebook?

Regards,

Rich

From python at mrabarnett.plus.com  Fri Jan 15 20:01:25 2021
From: python at mrabarnett.plus.com (MRAB)
Date: Sat, 16 Jan 2021 01:01:25 +0000
Subject: Writing a Python3 ttk.Notebook
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LNX.2.20.2101151611100.8377@salmo.appl-ecosys.com>
References: <alpine.LNX.2.20.2101151239390.8377@salmo.appl-ecosys.com>
 <q8340g56rrnd6ddukll20femeu0bn6ad3m@4ax.com>
 <alpine.LNX.2.20.2101151428070.8377@salmo.appl-ecosys.com>
 <alpine.LNX.2.20.2101151453470.8377@salmo.appl-ecosys.com>
 <alpine.LNX.2.20.2101151611100.8377@salmo.appl-ecosys.com>
Message-ID: <1851f166-6d02-3969-88be-dfa22f1a15cb@mrabarnett.plus.com>

On 2021-01-16 00:16, Rich Shepard wrote:
> On Fri, 15 Jan 2021, Rich Shepard wrote:
> 
>> Progress: I didn't put the notebook on the main window using grid. Now I
>> need to find how to specify the position so it's at the top of the window.
>> I'll read the options on grid.
> 
> The notebook tabs are placed on the grid as nb.grid(row=0, column=0,
> columnspan=6). But, it's in the center of the main frame and small.
> 
The '.grid' method has a 'sticky' keyword parameter that controls the 
alignment within the grid cell.

> All the references I've found in Tkinter books and on the web have small,
> stand-alone, samples of notebooks. Is
> <https://www.tcl.tk/man/tcl8.5/TkCmd/ttk_notebook.htm> the best and most
> complete reference for learning how to apply a ttk.Notebook?
> 

From tjreedy at udel.edu  Fri Jan 15 19:57:21 2021
From: tjreedy at udel.edu (Terry Reedy)
Date: Fri, 15 Jan 2021 19:57:21 -0500
Subject: Writing a Python3 ttk.Notebook
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LNX.2.20.2101151239390.8377@salmo.appl-ecosys.com>
References: <alpine.LNX.2.20.2101151239390.8377@salmo.appl-ecosys.com>
Message-ID: <rttdli$d18$1@ciao.gmane.io>

On 1/15/2021 3:51 PM, Rich Shepard wrote:
> I want to replace the menu on my application with the more appropriate
> notebook. After looking at examples in my reference books and on the Web I
> still cannot get it working properly.

IDLE's settings dialog uses a ttk.Notebook.  The file is 
Lib/idlelib/configdialog.py.

-- 
Terry Jan Reedy


From greg.ewing at canterbury.ac.nz  Fri Jan 15 21:31:23 2021
From: greg.ewing at canterbury.ac.nz (Greg Ewing)
Date: Sat, 16 Jan 2021 15:31:23 +1300
Subject: Exploring terminfo
In-Reply-To: <mailman.803.1610736862.7193.python-list@python.org>
References: <rtpqh8$16kg$1@ciao.gmane.io> <rts4ov$10b4$1@ciao.gmane.io>
 <rtsjht$119t$1@ciao.gmane.io> <rtsn50$gg9$1@ciao.gmane.io>
 <mailman.803.1610736862.7193.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <i6f1ftF5mc7U1@mid.individual.net>

On 16/01/21 7:33 am, Grant Edwards wrote:
> Starting in Python 3.<something>, python's stdio file objects are _not_
> on top of the libc FILE streams: they're directly on top of the file
> descriptor.

This sounds like rather a bad situation, because it means that
any C library using stdio is going to interact badly with Python
stdio.

Can something be done about this? Maybe Python stdio objects
should flush all the C stdio streams before writing anything?

-- 
Greg

From rosuav at gmail.com  Fri Jan 15 21:37:50 2021
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Sat, 16 Jan 2021 13:37:50 +1100
Subject: Exploring terminfo
In-Reply-To: <i6f1ftF5mc7U1@mid.individual.net>
References: <rtpqh8$16kg$1@ciao.gmane.io> <rts4ov$10b4$1@ciao.gmane.io>
 <rtsjht$119t$1@ciao.gmane.io> <rtsn50$gg9$1@ciao.gmane.io>
 <mailman.803.1610736862.7193.python-list@python.org>
 <i6f1ftF5mc7U1@mid.individual.net>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmrpYbmQPe9C=KfDMvqvfG77rcBjjDNxRpNJaH9X1aK_uw@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Jan 16, 2021 at 1:36 PM Greg Ewing <greg.ewing at canterbury.ac.nz> wrote:
>
> On 16/01/21 7:33 am, Grant Edwards wrote:
> > Starting in Python 3.<something>, python's stdio file objects are _not_
> > on top of the libc FILE streams: they're directly on top of the file
> > descriptor.
>
> This sounds like rather a bad situation, because it means that
> any C library using stdio is going to interact badly with Python
> stdio.
>
> Can something be done about this? Maybe Python stdio objects
> should flush all the C stdio streams before writing anything?
>

Surely it should be the other way around? If you use the C stdio
streams, flush them after use. Like with everything else that you
flush.

ChrisA

From greg.ewing at canterbury.ac.nz  Fri Jan 15 21:41:03 2021
From: greg.ewing at canterbury.ac.nz (Greg Ewing)
Date: Sat, 16 Jan 2021 15:41:03 +1300
Subject: why sqrt is not a built-in function?
In-Reply-To: <rtt0jp$gq$1@dont-email.me>
References: <be5aba81-08c0-4c71-8188-516ea838ce78n@googlegroups.com>
 <4f734c9c-0732-4239-daad-f9981fadc60e@btinternet.com>
 <mailman.797.1610726008.7193.python-list@python.org>
 <rtspli$cdj$1@dont-email.me> <sqrt-20210115210056@ram.dialup.fu-berlin.de>
 <rtt0jp$gq$1@dont-email.me>
Message-ID: <i6f221F5pdnU1@mid.individual.net>

On 16/01/21 10:14 am, Michael F. Stemper wrote:
> I had no idea that syntax existed, and find it completely at odds
> with The Zen of Python.

It's not an *obvious* way, so there's no Zen conflict.

As for why it exists, it's part of the mechanism that implements
imports -- 'import' statements get compiled into a call to
__import__.

It also provides a way of importing something specifed by a
string at runtime, so it can be useful.

-- 
Greg


From cs at cskk.id.au  Fri Jan 15 21:50:38 2021
From: cs at cskk.id.au (Cameron Simpson)
Date: Sat, 16 Jan 2021 13:50:38 +1100
Subject: Exploring terminfo
In-Reply-To: <rtsnb4$i53$1@ciao.gmane.io>
References: <rtsnb4$i53$1@ciao.gmane.io>
Message-ID: <YAJUfq8l6h23niDG@cskk.homeip.net>

On 15Jan2021 18:36, Alan Gauld <alan.gauld at yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>> One difference is that the name prompt is being written to stdout in
>> the C version and stderr in the Python version. But I don't see why
>> that would matter.
>
>That could make a big difference, the putp() function specifically
>states that it writes to stdout.

If you want an example of code using the curses.ti* functions with 
arbitrary Python files, have a gander at this:

    https://hg.sr.ht/~cameron-simpson/css/browse/lib/python/cs/upd.py?rev=tip

It's on PyPI if you want easy installation in addition to the source:

    https://pypi.org/project/cs.upd/

I'm not (yet) doing colour with that, but I _am_ doing cursor motions 
etc, since that supports multiple lines of display (typical use case is 
multiple progress bars for parallel tasks).

It looks up and uses a few things, like insert_line etc, since the 
interface with my logging goes: go to the top status line, insert a 
line, write the error message, resume.

>> Now the question: is there a way to tell the curses module to flush
>> its stdout FILE stream?
>
>Indeed. But unless it's trivial it rather defeats the concept of
>using the terminfo functions to create text effects without
>diving into full curses screen control! And that was what I
>was hoping to uncover.
>
>I wonder if I can use the os module to mess with the
>file descriptors.... hmmm.

That is massive overkill. It is enough to write various strings to your 
desired output and flush it. As encountered earlier, curses strings are 
bytes, and need to be decodes as ASCII for str use.

>Thanks for that snippet, I had no idea that input() wrote
>to stderr

Lots of things like to do that. It is a hack, but it does avoid 
polluting your stdout with prompts. (Taxonomy of Bugs: "plug: a message 
dropped in the middle of the output data stream".)

>nor that Python added a stdout layer on top of libc.

It might put its stdout layer directly on top of fd 1, rather than the C 
stdout system. That rings a bell with me.

>Do you know where that is documented? I'd be interested in
>reading more.

The io module?

Cheers,
Cameron Simpson <cs at cskk.id.au>

From greg.ewing at canterbury.ac.nz  Fri Jan 15 22:10:20 2021
From: greg.ewing at canterbury.ac.nz (Greg Ewing)
Date: Sat, 16 Jan 2021 16:10:20 +1300
Subject: Exploring terminfo
In-Reply-To: <mailman.832.1610764684.7193.python-list@python.org>
References: <rtpqh8$16kg$1@ciao.gmane.io> <rts4ov$10b4$1@ciao.gmane.io>
 <rtsjht$119t$1@ciao.gmane.io> <rtsn50$gg9$1@ciao.gmane.io>
 <mailman.803.1610736862.7193.python-list@python.org>
 <i6f1ftF5mc7U1@mid.individual.net>
 <CAPTjJmrpYbmQPe9C=KfDMvqvfG77rcBjjDNxRpNJaH9X1aK_uw@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.832.1610764684.7193.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <i6f3osF606iU1@mid.individual.net>

On 16/01/21 3:37 pm, Chris Angelico wrote:
> Surely it should be the other way around? If you use the C stdio
> streams, flush them after use.

1. You might not know that you're (implicitly) using C stdio.

2. There doesn't seem to be an easy way to flush C stdio from
Python any more.

-- 
Greg

From rosuav at gmail.com  Fri Jan 15 22:17:51 2021
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Sat, 16 Jan 2021 14:17:51 +1100
Subject: Exploring terminfo
In-Reply-To: <i6f3osF606iU1@mid.individual.net>
References: <rtpqh8$16kg$1@ciao.gmane.io> <rts4ov$10b4$1@ciao.gmane.io>
 <rtsjht$119t$1@ciao.gmane.io> <rtsn50$gg9$1@ciao.gmane.io>
 <mailman.803.1610736862.7193.python-list@python.org>
 <i6f1ftF5mc7U1@mid.individual.net>
 <CAPTjJmrpYbmQPe9C=KfDMvqvfG77rcBjjDNxRpNJaH9X1aK_uw@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.832.1610764684.7193.python-list@python.org>
 <i6f3osF606iU1@mid.individual.net>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmp9xRa2U1GsRvanf9BOe0K12XF1Zt89C=H+dHXLMW2xJA@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Jan 16, 2021 at 2:16 PM Greg Ewing <greg.ewing at canterbury.ac.nz> wrote:
>
> On 16/01/21 3:37 pm, Chris Angelico wrote:
> > Surely it should be the other way around? If you use the C stdio
> > streams, flush them after use.
>
> 1. You might not know that you're (implicitly) using C stdio.
>
> 2. There doesn't seem to be an easy way to flush C stdio from
> Python any more.
>

But somewhere along the way, you're finding that there's a problem,
which implies that SOMETHING is calling on C stdio. That thing,
surely, should be the thing responsible for flushing?

ChrisA

From Bischoop at vimart.net  Fri Jan 15 22:32:37 2021
From: Bischoop at vimart.net (Bischoop)
Date: Sat, 16 Jan 2021 03:32:37 -0000 (UTC)
Subject: count consecutive elements
References: <slrnrvup10.dse.Bischoop@vimart.net>
 <20210113193502.7d2d778b@bigbox.attlocal.net>
 <CAGGBd_pokcB9f2BUYCT4rOW3HP5QeOp8TKS0SYLyYtQL8y2Vvw@mail.gmail.com>
 <20210113213742.2275d553@bigbox.attlocal.net>
 <mailman.773.1610596959.7193.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <slrns04nil.c1q.Bischoop@vimart.net>

On 2021-01-14, Tim Chase <python.list at tim.thechases.com> wrote:
>
> seems to only return one value so seems to get odd results if I
> specify something like
>
>   get_longest("aaabcccbbb")
>
> which at least here tells me that "c" is the longest run, even though
> aaa, bbb, and ccc are all runs of length 3.  The OP didn't specify
> what should happen in that case, so it would need some clarification.
>
>

In that case maybe good solution would be to return three of them?

--
Thanks


From rshepard at appl-ecosys.com  Fri Jan 15 22:45:07 2021
From: rshepard at appl-ecosys.com (Rich Shepard)
Date: Fri, 15 Jan 2021 19:45:07 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Writing a Python3 ttk.Notebook
In-Reply-To: <rttdli$d18$1@ciao.gmane.io>
References: <alpine.LNX.2.20.2101151239390.8377@salmo.appl-ecosys.com>
 <rttdli$d18$1@ciao.gmane.io>
Message-ID: <alpine.LNX.2.20.2101151944280.25756@salmo.appl-ecosys.com>

On Fri, 15 Jan 2021, Terry Reedy wrote:

> IDLE's settings dialog uses a ttk.Notebook. The file is
> Lib/idlelib/configdialog.py.

Thanks, Terry! I completely forgot that. I'll study the IDLE's code and
learn from that.

Stay well,

Rich

From grant.b.edwards at gmail.com  Fri Jan 15 21:30:18 2021
From: grant.b.edwards at gmail.com (Grant Edwards)
Date: Sat, 16 Jan 2021 02:30:18 -0000 (UTC)
Subject: Exploring terminfo
References: <rtpqh8$16kg$1@ciao.gmane.io> <rts4ov$10b4$1@ciao.gmane.io>
 <rtsjht$119t$1@ciao.gmane.io> <rtsnb4$i53$1@ciao.gmane.io>
 <rtsu5r$e5k$1@ciao.gmane.io> <rtt3q2$f4d$1@ciao.gmane.io>
 <rtt50q$15ge$1@ciao.gmane.io>
Message-ID: <rttj3q$to0$1@ciao.gmane.io>

On 2021-01-15, Grant Edwards <grant.b.edwards at gmail.com> wrote:
> On 2021-01-15, Grant Edwards <grant.b.edwards at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Entities that are parameterized (e.g. goto location) would need to be
>> passed through curses.tiparm() before they're decoded and printed. I'm
>> goign to try that next.
>
> The curses module doesn't expose tiparm, but you can use tparm
> instead

NB: The example code below may fail to work properly if all of the
    below are true.

      * You're using a real, physical terminal
 
      * Connected to a real, physical serial port (not a pty)
 
      * Without flow control
 
      * And the terminal requires "pauses" to allow time for the
        terminal to execute the some commands before it can accept
        further data.

The functionality that is added by tputs() is to insert "padding"
(typically extra NUL bytes) before/after certain certain terminal
operations.

What I _don't_ know at this point is what happens if you're using a
terminfo description that specifies padding, but you're not connected
to a physical terminal via a real serial port.


>     #!/usr/bin/python
>     import curses,sys
>     
>     curses.setupterm()
>     
>     write = sys.stdout.write
>     
>     bold = curses.tigetstr('bold').decode('ascii')
>     norm = curses.tigetstr('sgr0').decode('ascii')
>     cls = curses.tigetstr('clear').decode('ascii')
>     cup = curses.tigetstr('cup')
>     
>     def goto(row,column):
>         write(curses.tparm(cup,row,column).decode('ascii'))
>     
>     def clear():
>         write(cls)
>     
>     clear()    
>     name = input("enter name: ")
>     
>     for row in [3,5,10,20]:
>         goto(row, row+5)
>         write(f'{bold}Hi there {name}{norm}')
>         goto(row+1, row+6)
>         write(f'Hi there {name}')
>     
>     goto(24,0)    
>     input("press enter to exit: ")
>     clear()
>



From grant.b.edwards at gmail.com  Fri Jan 15 21:43:40 2021
From: grant.b.edwards at gmail.com (Grant Edwards)
Date: Sat, 16 Jan 2021 02:43:40 -0000 (UTC)
Subject: Exploring terminfo
References: <rtpqh8$16kg$1@ciao.gmane.io> <rts4ov$10b4$1@ciao.gmane.io>
 <rtsjht$119t$1@ciao.gmane.io> <rtsn50$gg9$1@ciao.gmane.io>
 <mailman.803.1610736862.7193.python-list@python.org>
 <i6f1ftF5mc7U1@mid.individual.net>
Message-ID: <rttjss$prn$1@ciao.gmane.io>

On 2021-01-16, Greg Ewing <greg.ewing at canterbury.ac.nz> wrote:
> On 16/01/21 7:33 am, Grant Edwards wrote:
>
>> Starting in Python 3.<something>, python's stdio file objects are _not_
>> on top of the libc FILE streams: they're directly on top of the file
>> descriptor.
>
> This sounds like rather a bad situation, because it means that
> any C library using stdio is going to interact badly with Python
> stdio.

True, but how many Python programs use C libraries that write to FILE*
streams and need to mix in Python "standard output"?

> Can something be done about this? Maybe Python stdio objects
> should flush all the C stdio streams before writing anything?

There's probably a way to hack the sys.stdout object to make it write
data to the FILE* stream using fwrite(), but it'd be ugly.

--
Grant



From grant.b.edwards at gmail.com  Fri Jan 15 21:46:31 2021
From: grant.b.edwards at gmail.com (Grant Edwards)
Date: Sat, 16 Jan 2021 02:46:31 -0000 (UTC)
Subject: Exploring terminfo
References: <rtpqh8$16kg$1@ciao.gmane.io> <rts4ov$10b4$1@ciao.gmane.io>
 <rtsjht$119t$1@ciao.gmane.io> <rtsn50$gg9$1@ciao.gmane.io>
 <mailman.803.1610736862.7193.python-list@python.org>
 <i6f1ftF5mc7U1@mid.individual.net>
 <CAPTjJmrpYbmQPe9C=KfDMvqvfG77rcBjjDNxRpNJaH9X1aK_uw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <rttk26$prn$2@ciao.gmane.io>

On 2021-01-16, Chris Angelico <rosuav at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Sat, Jan 16, 2021 at 1:36 PM Greg Ewing <greg.ewing at canterbury.ac.nz> wrote:
>
>> Can something be done about this? Maybe Python stdio objects
>> should flush all the C stdio streams before writing anything?
>>
>
> Surely it should be the other way around? If you use the C stdio
> streams, flush them after use. Like with everything else that you
> flush.

If you want to be able to mix Python output and FILE* output, you have
to flush either/both. You have to flush the Python output everytime
you do a FILE* output, and you have to fflush the FILE* stream every
time you do Python output. Or you have to keep track of which you did
last time.

It's very ugly.

--
Grant



From Bischoop at vimart.net  Fri Jan 15 22:04:58 2021
From: Bischoop at vimart.net (Bischoop)
Date: Sat, 16 Jan 2021 03:04:58 -0000 (UTC)
Subject: binascii.b2a vs ord()
References: <slrnrvkt51.llt.Bischoop@vimart.net>
 <CAPTjJmopF4cdASehqKSoef_Nn6WQA5o+kh+1LnNb7yvGQsxdsQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.689.1610249842.7193.python-list@python.org>
 <slrnrvm31q.25j.Bischoop@vimart.net>
 <CAPTjJmp2ZtA3mXR57DC6FPxgy6a=udTEQGY+bPn1dqo4E=BN=A@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.694.1610310611.7193.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <slrns04luq.c1q.Bischoop@vimart.net>

On 2021-01-10, Chris Angelico <rosuav at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Hope that helps!
>

Yep, now it seems more understandable what is going on.
Thanks for you time.

--
Thanks

From grant.b.edwards at gmail.com  Fri Jan 15 22:09:53 2021
From: grant.b.edwards at gmail.com (Grant Edwards)
Date: Sat, 16 Jan 2021 03:09:53 -0000 (UTC)
Subject: Exploring terminfo
References: <rtsnb4$i53$1@ciao.gmane.io> <YAJUfq8l6h23niDG@cskk.homeip.net>
Message-ID: <rttle1$17n9$1@ciao.gmane.io>

On 2021-01-16, Cameron Simpson <cs at cskk.id.au> wrote:
> On 15Jan2021 18:36, Alan Gauld <alan.gauld at yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>>> One difference is that the name prompt is being written to stdout in
>>> the C version and stderr in the Python version. But I don't see why
>>> that would matter.
>>
>>That could make a big difference, the putp() function specifically
>>states that it writes to stdout.
>
> If you want an example of code using the curses.ti* functions with 
> arbitrary Python files, have a gander at this:
>
>     https://hg.sr.ht/~cameron-simpson/css/browse/lib/python/cs/upd.py?rev=tip

I don't see how it deals with terminfo strings that have delay
specifiers in them (e.g. vt100). Those delay specifiers need to be
replaced by 0 or more 'pad' characters (default is NUL, but that too
can be specified in the terminfo file).

My initial plan was to call ncurses tputs() function and pass it a
'putchar' callback that passes the output bytes to
sys.stdout.buffer.write(). I haven't gotten that working yet (it's
going to require some cytyptes magic).


--
Grant




From python.list at tim.thechases.com  Fri Jan 15 23:09:55 2021
From: python.list at tim.thechases.com (Tim Chase)
Date: Fri, 15 Jan 2021 22:09:55 -0600
Subject: count consecutive elements
In-Reply-To: <slrns04nil.c1q.Bischoop@vimart.net>
References: <slrnrvup10.dse.Bischoop@vimart.net>
 <20210113193502.7d2d778b@bigbox.attlocal.net>
 <CAGGBd_pokcB9f2BUYCT4rOW3HP5QeOp8TKS0SYLyYtQL8y2Vvw@mail.gmail.com>
 <20210113213742.2275d553@bigbox.attlocal.net>
 <mailman.773.1610596959.7193.python-list@python.org>
 <slrns04nil.c1q.Bischoop@vimart.net>
Message-ID: <20210115220955.6d4452a0@bigbox.attlocal.net>

On 2021-01-16 03:32, Bischoop wrote:
>> The OP didn't specify what should happen in that case, so it would
>> need some clarification.
> 
> In that case maybe good solution would be to return three of them?

That's the solution I chose in my initial reply, you get a tuple back
of ([list of longest matches], length_of_longest_match)

-tkc



From grant.b.edwards at gmail.com  Fri Jan 15 23:26:59 2021
From: grant.b.edwards at gmail.com (Grant Edwards)
Date: Sat, 16 Jan 2021 04:26:59 -0000 (UTC)
Subject: Exploring terminfo
References: <rtpqh8$16kg$1@ciao.gmane.io> <rts4ov$10b4$1@ciao.gmane.io>
 <rtsjht$119t$1@ciao.gmane.io> <rtsnb4$i53$1@ciao.gmane.io>
 <rtsu5r$e5k$1@ciao.gmane.io> <rtt3q2$f4d$1@ciao.gmane.io>
 <rtt50q$15ge$1@ciao.gmane.io> <rttj3q$to0$1@ciao.gmane.io>
Message-ID: <rttpuj$cs8$1@ciao.gmane.io>

My previous code didn't work if the terminfo entities contained delay
specifiers because the delay specifier was left in the output
datastream. The case where the terminfo description contains delays,
but the delays aren't needed can be handled by simply removing the delay
specifiers by wrapping ncurses.tigetstr as shown below.

If you really _are_ using a physical terminal which requires delays
and is connected to a real serial port, then I think the only
practical solution is to replace sys.stdout.buffer with something that
quacks like io.BufferedWriter and uses ctypes to call fwrite() and
fflush() on FILE *stdout. That means you've got to do all the ncurses
control via curses.putp() and you can't do things like embed control
sequences in python strings like print(f'{bold}Hi there{norm}')


    #!/usr/bin/python
    
    import curses,sys,re
    
    curses.setupterm()
    
    write = sys.stdout.write
    
    def tigetstr(name):
        seq = curses.tigetstr(name)
        return re.sub(b'\$<[0-9.]+[\*/]{0,2}>', b'', seq)
    
    bold = tigetstr('bold').decode('ascii')
    norm = tigetstr('sgr0').decode('ascii')
    cls = tigetstr('clear').decode('ascii')
    cup = tigetstr('cup')
    
    def goto(row,column):
        write(curses.tparm(cup,row,column).decode('ascii'))
    
    def clear():
        write(cls)
    
    clear()    
    name = input("enter name: ")
    
    for row in [3,5,10,20]:
        goto(row, row+5)
        write(f'{bold}Hi there {name}{norm}')
        goto(row+1, row+6)
        write(f'Hi there {name}')
    
    goto(24,0)    
    input("press enter to exit: ")
    clear()


From luis2005sandoval at gmail.com  Sat Jan 16 00:23:09 2021
From: luis2005sandoval at gmail.com (Z3PS1)
Date: Fri, 15 Jan 2021 22:23:09 -0700
Subject: HEKLP 
Message-ID: <8709998B-275E-462E-BCC9-60CF8BCA6A27@hxcore.ol>

   NEED HELP WITH MY IDLE

   ?

   Sent from [1]Mail for Windows 10

   ?

References

   Visible links
   1. https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986

From tjreedy at udel.edu  Sat Jan 16 01:34:20 2021
From: tjreedy at udel.edu (Terry Reedy)
Date: Sat, 16 Jan 2021 01:34:20 -0500
Subject: HEKLP
In-Reply-To: <8709998B-275E-462E-BCC9-60CF8BCA6A27@hxcore.ol>
References: <8709998B-275E-462E-BCC9-60CF8BCA6A27@hxcore.ol>
Message-ID: <rtu1dd$1g4$1@ciao.gmane.io>

On 1/16/2021 12:23 AM, Z3PS1 wrote:
>     NEED HELP WITH MY IDLE
>     Sent from [1]Mail for Windows 10
> References
> 
>     Visible links
>     1. https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986

I answer real IDLE questions, but this looks like spam to drive traffic 
to the hidden link, so I am ignoring it.

-- 
Terry Jan Reedy


From mstemper at gmail.com  Sat Jan 16 09:25:31 2021
From: mstemper at gmail.com (Michael F. Stemper)
Date: Sat, 16 Jan 2021 08:25:31 -0600
Subject: why sqrt is not a built-in function?
In-Reply-To: <mailman.827.1610752633.7193.python-list@python.org>
References: <be5aba81-08c0-4c71-8188-516ea838ce78n@googlegroups.com>
 <4f734c9c-0732-4239-daad-f9981fadc60e@btinternet.com>
 <mailman.797.1610726008.7193.python-list@python.org>
 <rtspli$cdj$1@dont-email.me> <sqrt-20210115210056@ram.dialup.fu-berlin.de>
 <rtt0jp$gq$1@dont-email.me> <snippets-20210115222439@ram.dialup.fu-berlin.de>
 <rtt2m9$fku$1@dont-email.me>
 <CAPTjJmrvx5w4KutbQhX9ps++cO5nW0W3k3nO-nEXK38MhhPLOg@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.814.1610748093.7193.python-list@python.org>
 <rtt5k7$44s$1@dont-email.me>
 <4bc9c7bb-1bff-32da-4675-81955d0588b1@DancesWithMice.info>
 <mailman.827.1610752633.7193.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <rtut13$ptp$1@dont-email.me>

On 15/01/2021 17.17, dn wrote:
> On 16/01/2021 11.40, Michael F. Stemper wrote:
>> On 15/01/2021 16.01, Chris Angelico wrote:
>>> On Sat, Jan 16, 2021 at 8:56 AM Michael F. Stemper
>>> <mstemper at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> On 15/01/2021 15.26, Stefan Ram wrote:
>>>>> "Michael F. Stemper" <mstemper at gmail.com> writes:
>>>>>> On 15/01/2021 14.01, Stefan Ram wrote:

>>>>>>> __import__( "math" ).sqrt( 4 )
>>>>>> I had no idea that syntax existed, and find it completely at odds
>>>>>> with The Zen of Python. I'm torn between forgetting that I ever saw
>>>>>> it and using it for some evilly-obfuscated code.
>>>>>
>>>>>  ??? When one collects snippets of Python code that are intended
>>>>>  ??? to be inserted into programs, a snippet usually would have
>>>>>  ??? to consist of two parts: One part to be inserted at the top
>>>>>  ??? of the program, into the imports section, and then the actual
>>>>>  ??? snippet.
>>>>>  ??? "__import__" allows to write snippets that can be inserted
>>>>>  ??? as they are without the need to do insertions at two different
>>>>>  ??? places. (Possibly with a tool to later normalize the insertions
>>>>>  ??? to the usual style.)
>>>
>>> I'm not sure how that works. In Python, you can just put the imports
>>> where you want them - why would the __import__ function be needed?
> 
> import is 'syntactic sugar' for __import__().

And any high-level language is, from a certain point of view, syntactic
sugar for entering the machine-language instructions using the toggle
switches on the front panel. The way that Turing meant for us to do it.

> More seriously, it's like creating a class object by
> 
>      MyClass = type('MyClass', (), {})
> 
> whereas it's far easier (for most of us) to use
> 
>      class MyClass( etc )

As well as far easier to comprehend and maintain.

>> I have no idea what PEP-8 has to say on the subject. However, my coding
>> style *generally* puts all of the imports up front, right after the
>> prologue (program description, revision history, uzw).
> 
> This is indeed received-wisdom.
> 
> However it does not disallow (yuk: double-negative!) coding an import
> statement elsewhere, eg a routine which is only executed during some
> invocations, but not others.

Hence the emphasized "generally". For instance, one of my programs has
an option to plot its results. If that option is selected, matplotlib is
imported -- way at the end, after all of the number-crunching.

I think that we're in agreement here.

> What you may like to consider about "prolog[ue]s" is whether they belong
> 'in' the code (plenty of arguments 'for') or within the VCS (plenty of
> arguments here too)...
> 
> eg1: how easy is it to establish when a particular decision/code-change
> was made (more than one week ago)? - particularly if changes were
> subsequent made 'on top of' that change?
> 
> eg2: is it a good idea to use 'Python constants' to display the
> program(me) name and (perhaps) a version number on the
> terminal/application window?

Such as "%prog"? Or "sys.argv[0]"? Quite useful for help text and
diagnostic messages, with no need to hard-code the program name
into the program. Which would cause confusion if a user wanted to
rename/alias the program.

-- 
Michael F. Stemper
What happens if you play John Cage's "4'33" at a slower tempo?

From mohsen.shoushtari97 at gmail.com  Sat Jan 16 10:30:06 2021
From: mohsen.shoushtari97 at gmail.com (mohsen shooshtari)
Date: Sat, 16 Jan 2021 19:00:06 +0330
Subject: Issues with running python in Command prompt
Message-ID: <CADOd39fcqOego2N9ooLZeQ4Re4scDBdDBEmW588RC+YrTYcZQw@mail.gmail.com>

hello,
Thanks in advance for your consideration. I install python3.8 and then
install Pycharm but when I call python in Command prompt, followed by
( 'python'
is not recognized as an internal or external command, operable program or
batch file.

what should I do to fix this problem?

From grant.b.edwards at gmail.com  Sat Jan 16 11:35:02 2021
From: grant.b.edwards at gmail.com (Grant Edwards)
Date: Sat, 16 Jan 2021 16:35:02 -0000 (UTC)
Subject: HEKLP
References: <8709998B-275E-462E-BCC9-60CF8BCA6A27@hxcore.ol>
Message-ID: <rtv4jm$l5q$1@ciao.gmane.io>

Perhaps once you get your 'K' key fixed it'll work better.


From alan.gauld at yahoo.co.uk  Sat Jan 16 13:11:37 2021
From: alan.gauld at yahoo.co.uk (Alan Gauld)
Date: Sat, 16 Jan 2021 18:11:37 +0000
Subject: Exploring terminfo
In-Reply-To: <no240g9bekpqvqvpapjd9ubpglifgtir7r@4ax.com>
References: <rtpqh8$16kg$1@ciao.gmane.io> <rts4ov$10b4$1@ciao.gmane.io>
 <no240g9bekpqvqvpapjd9ubpglifgtir7r@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <rtva8p$hue$1@ciao.gmane.io>

On 15/01/2021 21:41, Dennis Lee Bieber wrote:
> On Fri, 15 Jan 2021 13:19:26 +0000, Alan Gauld via Python-list
> <python-list at python.org> declaimed the following:
> 
>> So the native C functions work as expected.
>> Why does the Python wrapper not?
> 
> 	Are you running Python from a plain command shell, or from some sort of
> IDE?

Heh Dennis, you should know I'm strictly a vim and bash man ;-)

-- 
Alan G
Author of the Learn to Program web site
http://www.alan-g.me.uk/
http://www.amazon.com/author/alan_gauld
Follow my photo-blog on Flickr at:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/alangauldphotos



From torque.india at gmail.com  Sat Jan 16 13:45:04 2021
From: torque.india at gmail.com (OmPs)
Date: Sun, 17 Jan 2021 00:15:04 +0530
Subject: Issues with running python in Command prompt
In-Reply-To: <CADOd39fcqOego2N9ooLZeQ4Re4scDBdDBEmW588RC+YrTYcZQw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CADOd39fcqOego2N9ooLZeQ4Re4scDBdDBEmW588RC+YrTYcZQw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAFo8oMDUgyxgcTy6OTt+poqAKwPj1qkwZiwKmCzaK08npvXzww@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, 16 Jan 2021, 23:51 mohsen shooshtari, <mohsen.shoushtari97 at gmail.com>
wrote:

> hello,
> Thanks in advance for your consideration. I install python3.8 and then
> install Pycharm but when I call python in Command prompt, followed by
> ( 'python'
> is not recognized as an internal or external command, operable program or
> batch file.
>

You need to set the path in your batch file so the batch file knows where
To look for python package. Search in google for setting up path in
baychfile in windows.


> what should I do to fix this problem?
> --
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list



>

From mats at wichmann.us  Sat Jan 16 13:52:42 2021
From: mats at wichmann.us (Mats Wichmann)
Date: Sat, 16 Jan 2021 11:52:42 -0700
Subject: Issues with running python in Command prompt
In-Reply-To: <CADOd39fcqOego2N9ooLZeQ4Re4scDBdDBEmW588RC+YrTYcZQw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CADOd39fcqOego2N9ooLZeQ4Re4scDBdDBEmW588RC+YrTYcZQw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <c6bfe185-70bc-f06d-0ca3-98d9231c1016@wichmann.us>

On 1/16/21 8:30 AM, mohsen shooshtari wrote:
> hello,
> Thanks in advance for your consideration. I install python3.8 and then
> install Pycharm but when I call python in Command prompt, followed by
> ( 'python'
> is not recognized as an internal or external command, operable program or
> batch file.
> 
> what should I do to fix this problem?
> 

Make sure you've read this page.  There turn out to be a number of 
permutations depending on what you installed and how you installed it:

https://docs.python.org/3/using/windows.html

From don81846 at comcast.net.REMOVEME  Sat Jan 16 14:51:19 2021
From: don81846 at comcast.net.REMOVEME (DonK)
Date: Sat, 16 Jan 2021 14:51:19 -0500
Subject: A beginning beginner's question about input, output and . . .
References: <i1apvfhooqevl9gkol3ic0itcbdoi0m6a4@4ax.com>
 <CAPTjJmpYmb1k=P4-uZ6vUTn23ry2sqTN6HM8B6DKgr0K80xj_A@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.706.1610403991.7193.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <nbg60gtssu3mc3id82ipmjtsn09uq7i8o3@4ax.com>

On Tue, 12 Jan 2021 09:26:18 +1100, Chris Angelico <rosuav at gmail.com>
wrote:

>On Tue, Jan 12, 2021 at 7:41 AM DonK <don81846 at comcast.net.removeme> wrote:
>> Hi, I'm thinking about learning Python but I'm 74 years old and will
>> very likely not ever have a programming job again. I used to program
>> in Visual Basic, C\C++, Delphi, etc. and some obscure "mainframe"
>> languages.
>
>BTW, from my experience, there's very very few languages so obscure
>that not one person on this list has heard of them :)
>
>For example, I've used REXX, which is an IBM language found on some of
>the mainframes and also on OS/2, and I'm not the only person here who
>has.
>
>ChrisA

Hi Chris,

The mainframe language that I mentioned was/is? called KwikBasic. I
don't remember if it was all one word or not. It's not to be confused
with Microsoft's QuickBasic.

KwikBasic ran on the Unix OS and was, hands down, the worst
programming experience I've ever had. It was a Y2k fix for the
reservation system of a large Fortune 500 real estate "timeshare"
company. I probably shouldn't say that their name was Trendswest.

The update had to be completed by the end of October 1998 because they
would start taking reservations for 2000 in Nov, 1998. They hired me
to manage the "reservation" part of their Y2k update in the Summer.
(YES! It was late.)

It turned out that KwikBasic was VERY much like the other versions of
basic that I had used. Including MSDOS's QuickBasic and PDS. The two
nutty things about it were that it had only 2 data types, if I
remember corectly they were called number and string.

The worst thing was that there was just one directory that contained
2,702 source files (I'll never forget that number) with names like
217h9436. There was no index to tell you what 217h9436 was, what it
did, what part of the business it pertained to . . . nothing. There
was also no notation in the files. You just had to open each one of
them, read their code to find out what they did.

Also, we had Windows computers on our desks with MS Office installed
but the nearest computer that could run Kwikbasic was their UNIX
mainframe in the main buildings about .25 to .50 miles away. We were
supposed to write code at our desk with Windows Notepad and then, on
Fridays,  the IT manager would take our code over to compile it and
would let us know of any error codes. They said they were going to buy
some expensive workstation for our office, that would run RedHat,
which they were told would then run Kwikbasic. IDunno!

It would have been impossible to do the job as the IT mgr (Mike W.)
envisioned it but I was able to write some simple MS Office code that
searched all the source code files, in just a minute or 2, for any
reference to "Date" functions. As I recall, there weren't that many.

Anyway, Mike W. was a fool that spent all day, every day, screaming
about, mostly, politics. I wound up quitting iafter less than 2 weeks.

Thanks for replying and sorry for the long message.

	Don

From don81846 at comcast.net.invalid  Sat Jan 16 15:42:44 2021
From: don81846 at comcast.net.invalid (DonK)
Date: Sat, 16 Jan 2021 15:42:44 -0500
Subject: A beginning beginner's question about input, output and . . .
References: <i1apvfhooqevl9gkol3ic0itcbdoi0m6a4@4ax.com>
 <87eeiqd7fj.fsf@nightsong.com>
Message-ID: <3gh60g9dcotpsuln9rot5jn4rpl97bsb0v@4ax.com>

On Mon, 11 Jan 2021 21:56:48 -0800, Paul Rubin
<no.email at nospam.invalid> wrote:

>DonK <don81846 at comcast.net.REMOVEME> writes:
>> My problem is that I don't understand how Python programs are
>> used. (i.e user input and output) Is Python mainly used for backends?
>> I've seen some Python gui frameworks like Tkinter, PyQt, etc....
>
>I would say at least for me, the i/o to my python programs tends to be
>be either files or network sockets.  I've written some fairly complex
>tkinter apps in the past, but these days, desktop GUI's almost seem like
>a 1990s thing.  If you want an interactive program, either it's a mobile
>app (Python is not so great at that, though see kivy.org) or a web app
>(so the user interacts with it through a browser).
>
>> So, what do you folks use Python for?
>
>Pretty much everything unless a) it's someone else's application written
>in another language so I have to use the other language; b) I need raw
>performance (C, C++) or some other specialized feature; or c) I want to
>get more practice with some other language (quite a few).
>
>> if the titlebar contains certain strings
>
>Yeah this sounds like a Windows thing.  I don't have any idea what it
>takes to make those Windows calls in Python since I'm mostly a Un*x
>programmer.

Yes, Windows. Iterating open windows with the Window's API is easy the
hard (very hard) part is sending keystrokes to those windows to Save
them. It's very tricky because the timing is critical. 

You have to use one of those "spy" utilities to get the name and
classid for the controls that you want to send a command to, then use
the Window's API functions SendMessage or PostMessage to send the
message directly to the control or just put it in the message que.
 
Like sending an "s" to the File menu to (S)ave. It's more complicated
than you would think and it doesn't work very well. It's like pushing
on a string. 


>
>> I know that Python is a very popular language so I'm sorry if it
>> sounds like I'm being critical. I really don't know enough about it to
>> be critical.
>
>If you're familiar with Javascript or Visual Basic, my impression is
>that Python is at about the same level, but with a (for me) subjectively
>cleaner style.  It doesn't have a static type system or a lot of
>boilerplate, so it's easy to bang out small scripts; but the compiler
>doesn't supply much long range error checking, so you have to be pretty
>devoted to test automation if you're doing anything sizeable.  There is
>now a syntax for optional type annotations in Python, and a tool called
>mypy for checking types based on the annotations.  The Python compiler
>itself ignores the annotations.  I've been using them and like them.


Hi Paul,

I doubt that I'll be doing anything sizeable, mostly just a little
learning and entertainment with an occasional small utility once in a
while. But, who knows?

For example, I've found a need to parse text documents quite a number
of times over the years. Basic/VB is great at doing that. How's
Python?


Thanks,

	Don

From 2QdxY4RzWzUUiLuE at potatochowder.com  Sat Jan 16 15:56:37 2021
From: 2QdxY4RzWzUUiLuE at potatochowder.com (2QdxY4RzWzUUiLuE at potatochowder.com)
Date: Sat, 16 Jan 2021 14:56:37 -0600
Subject: A beginning beginner's question about input, output and . . .
In-Reply-To: <3gh60g9dcotpsuln9rot5jn4rpl97bsb0v@4ax.com>
References: <i1apvfhooqevl9gkol3ic0itcbdoi0m6a4@4ax.com>
 <87eeiqd7fj.fsf@nightsong.com>
 <3gh60g9dcotpsuln9rot5jn4rpl97bsb0v@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <YANTBYJyaMdRMz6p@scrozzle>

On 2021-01-16 at 15:42:44 -0500,
DonK <don81846 at comcast.net.invalid> wrote:

> Yes, Windows. Iterating open windows with the Window's API is easy the
> hard (very hard) part is sending keystrokes to those windows to Save
> them. It's very tricky because the timing is critical. 
> 
> You have to use one of those "spy" utilities to get the name and
> classid for the controls that you want to send a command to, then use
> the Window's API functions SendMessage or PostMessage to send the
> message directly to the control or just put it in the message que.
>  
> Like sending an "s" to the File menu to (S)ave. It's more complicated
> than you would think and it doesn't work very well. It's like pushing
> on a string. 

Then don't do that?  ;-)

I'm no Windows expert (nor even a user), but do those applications have
a scripting interface?  (DDE?  OLE?  COM?  Do those letters ring a bell?
The right bell?  Are those technologies current?)  What you're trying to
do sounds like working *against* those applications rather than with
them.

> For example, I've found a need to parse text documents quite a number
> of times over the years. Basic/VB is great at doing that. How's
> Python?

Python can do that.  Can you expand on "parse" and "text documents"?

From don81846 at comcast.net.invalid  Sat Jan 16 16:04:09 2021
From: don81846 at comcast.net.invalid (DonK)
Date: Sat, 16 Jan 2021 16:04:09 -0500
Subject: A beginning beginner's question about input, output and . . .
References: <i1apvfhooqevl9gkol3ic0itcbdoi0m6a4@4ax.com>
 <CADrxXX=BHkXr2Fw5boMDHo5myaMSAyZf8-z_fO7VNZr-OF=GuQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.710.1610432229.7193.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <g4k60gtle8ubj7kvp5qsbkihjjmlu1ip1a@4ax.com>

On Tue, 12 Jan 2021 10:16:47 +0400, Abdur-Rahmaan Janhangeer
<arj.python at gmail.com> wrote:

>Greetings,
>
>Web with Python is really easy to get started with, here
>is a simple endpoint with a framework called Flask
>
>from flask import Flask
>app = Flask(__name__)
>
>@app.route('/')
>def hello_world():
>   return 'Hello World?
>
>if __name__ == '__main__':
>   app.run()
>
>As for Tkinter, it's really annoying.
>PyQt5 and others are a lot better.
>PyQt5 follows the Cpp function namings
>
>Kind Regards,
>
>Abdur-Rahmaan Janhangeer

Someone else also suggested a web interface for i/o. If I get that far
it seems like it will be something I'll need to take a look at.

A lot of my early programming was command line BASIC apps running on
MSDOS. Even some pretty BIG stuff. So, going back to that after 40+
years seems a little weird. :-)

I looked at some Youtube videos about creating mobile apps with Java
but that just didn't do it for me. As far as I've seen there isn't
really a way to do the small "ad hoc" type of utilities on a
smartphone that you can do on a desktop machine.

Don't get me wrong, I love my smartphone.  <g>

Thanks, 

	Don

From don81846 at comcast.net.invalid  Sat Jan 16 17:46:13 2021
From: don81846 at comcast.net.invalid (DonK)
Date: Sat, 16 Jan 2021 17:46:13 -0500
Subject: A beginning beginner's question about input, output and . . .
References: <i1apvfhooqevl9gkol3ic0itcbdoi0m6a4@4ax.com>
 <87eeiqd7fj.fsf@nightsong.com> <3gh60g9dcotpsuln9rot5jn4rpl97bsb0v@4ax.com>
 <YANTBYJyaMdRMz6p@scrozzle>
 <mailman.849.1610830606.7193.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <dbl60gdkf4e74ob0mcdtr5ffp5bvcjtln3@4ax.com>

On Sat, 16 Jan 2021 14:56:37 -0600, 2QdxY4RzWzUUiLuE at potatochowder.com
wrote:

>On 2021-01-16 at 15:42:44 -0500,
>DonK <don81846 at comcast.net.invalid> wrote:
>
>> Yes, Windows. Iterating open windows with the Window's API is easy the
>> hard (very hard) part is sending keystrokes to those windows to Save
>> them. It's very tricky because the timing is critical. 
>> 
>> You have to use one of those "spy" utilities to get the name and
>> classid for the controls that you want to send a command to, then use
>> the Window's API functions SendMessage or PostMessage to send the
>> message directly to the control or just put it in the message que.
>>  
>> Like sending an "s" to the File menu to (S)ave. It's more complicated
>> than you would think and it doesn't work very well. It's like pushing
>> on a string. 
>
>Then don't do that?  ;-)
>
>I'm no Windows expert (nor even a user), but do those applications have
>a scripting interface?  (DDE?  OLE?  COM?  Do those letters ring a bell?
>The right bell?  Are those technologies current?)  What you're trying to
>do sounds like working *against* those applications rather than with
>them.

No! I've used the interfaces that you mentioned (OLE and COM in
particular) but that was for apps that I, or my colleagues, wrote (for
an employer) "to expose their guts" many years ago. I've found few
general use Windows apps that support any form of scripting. MS Office
apps, famously, support OLE. Or they used to. My copy of Office is
2007 so I don't know about the newer versions. I think most of those
technologies might have died a long time ago but I could be entirely
wrong. Does Python use those methods to control Excel, etc??

There was a Windows Usenet app, that I was interested in, around 10,
maybe 20 years ago that exposed a Pascal language like interface but
there was no documentation and no support. I believe it only lasted a
short time. I'm pretty sure that it's name started with a "D". It
doesn't matter.

I tried the method that I described above with the Forte Agent
newsreader back in the dial-up days because people in one of the
programming newsgroups wanted to be able to upload/dowanload
(unattended) in the middle of the night. It might have been possible
to get it to work reliably but I gave up on it.

>
>> For example, I've found a need to parse text documents quite a number
>> of times over the years. Basic/VB is great at doing that. How's
>> Python?

>
>Python can do that.  Can you expand on "parse" and "text documents"?

There's nothing that I have any particular need for at the moment but
it is something that I've done a number of times over the years. I
think it's a common need?? 

I've used Pascal and BASIC\VB for string parsing and BASIC\VB is much
better. VB has all the string handling functions that you need built
in but, for example, Pascal has some but you have to create others to
be useful. Since I'm just beginning with Python I have no knowledge or
criticism of how Python does this but I'm sure that it can.

Since I've retired I've written parsers for my bank records, medical
records and other personally useful things. I would categorize them as
trivial but useful.  i.e utility means useful

When I was working, in the 1999-2001 range, I wrote a parser in VB
that unscrambled corrupted "batch files" for credit card processing so
that vendors didn't have to spend hours rebuilding them by hand. Some
of those files had over 700 credit card transactions in them. That's
one example.

I'm looking forward to learning some Python, mostly for fun, but I'm
sure that it will also be useful.


Thank you

	Don

From greg.ewing at canterbury.ac.nz  Sat Jan 16 18:31:14 2021
From: greg.ewing at canterbury.ac.nz (Greg Ewing)
Date: Sun, 17 Jan 2021 12:31:14 +1300
Subject: Exploring terminfo
In-Reply-To: <mailman.834.1610767084.7193.python-list@python.org>
References: <rtpqh8$16kg$1@ciao.gmane.io> <rts4ov$10b4$1@ciao.gmane.io>
 <rtsjht$119t$1@ciao.gmane.io> <rtsn50$gg9$1@ciao.gmane.io>
 <mailman.803.1610736862.7193.python-list@python.org>
 <i6f1ftF5mc7U1@mid.individual.net>
 <CAPTjJmrpYbmQPe9C=KfDMvqvfG77rcBjjDNxRpNJaH9X1aK_uw@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.832.1610764684.7193.python-list@python.org>
 <i6f3osF606iU1@mid.individual.net>
 <CAPTjJmp9xRa2U1GsRvanf9BOe0K12XF1Zt89C=H+dHXLMW2xJA@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.834.1610767084.7193.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <i6hba3Fjch9U1@mid.individual.net>

On 16/01/21 4:17 pm, Chris Angelico wrote:
> But somewhere along the way, you're finding that there's a problem,
> which implies that SOMETHING is calling on C stdio. That thing,
> surely, should be the thing responsible for flushing?

The C library using stdio has no way of knowing that something
else (e.g. Python) is bypassing stdio. That's an unusual thing
to do in the C world, so you can't really blame the authors
of the library for failing to anticipate it.

It's also unreasonable to expect a C library to flush after
every write, as that would defeat the purpose of stdio buffering.

-- 
Greg

From logandcranford at gmail.com  Sat Jan 16 15:55:26 2021
From: logandcranford at gmail.com (Logan Cranford)
Date: Sat, 16 Jan 2021 14:55:26 -0600
Subject: Python not Running
Message-ID: <CAL-Si0qLchjCzqj=ZF=Fnhbhreim49vwpDwFWTnbmyAz7tJdYg@mail.gmail.com>

I downloaded Python but when I try to run Idle it says it is not found and
I should try to redownload it. When I try to do that all that comes up is a
page that says modify, repair or uninstall. I have repaired several times
but it still gives me the same message. Can anyone  help me with this?

From rosuav at gmail.com  Sat Jan 16 18:40:59 2021
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Sun, 17 Jan 2021 10:40:59 +1100
Subject: Exploring terminfo
In-Reply-To: <i6hba3Fjch9U1@mid.individual.net>
References: <rtpqh8$16kg$1@ciao.gmane.io> <rts4ov$10b4$1@ciao.gmane.io>
 <rtsjht$119t$1@ciao.gmane.io> <rtsn50$gg9$1@ciao.gmane.io>
 <mailman.803.1610736862.7193.python-list@python.org>
 <i6f1ftF5mc7U1@mid.individual.net>
 <CAPTjJmrpYbmQPe9C=KfDMvqvfG77rcBjjDNxRpNJaH9X1aK_uw@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.832.1610764684.7193.python-list@python.org>
 <i6f3osF606iU1@mid.individual.net>
 <CAPTjJmp9xRa2U1GsRvanf9BOe0K12XF1Zt89C=H+dHXLMW2xJA@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.834.1610767084.7193.python-list@python.org>
 <i6hba3Fjch9U1@mid.individual.net>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmoKoiBLSKZn9shPPyfe3xqVY+OuN_YSBC0LYOH1bBh-LA@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Jan 17, 2021 at 10:36 AM Greg Ewing <greg.ewing at canterbury.ac.nz> wrote:
>
> On 16/01/21 4:17 pm, Chris Angelico wrote:
> > But somewhere along the way, you're finding that there's a problem,
> > which implies that SOMETHING is calling on C stdio. That thing,
> > surely, should be the thing responsible for flushing?
>
> The C library using stdio has no way of knowing that something
> else (e.g. Python) is bypassing stdio. That's an unusual thing
> to do in the C world, so you can't really blame the authors
> of the library for failing to anticipate it.
>
> It's also unreasonable to expect a C library to flush after
> every write, as that would defeat the purpose of stdio buffering.
>

This is true. However, at some point, the boundary is crossed from
Python into the C library. Something, at that point, knows. It's very
common to have a flush option available, so it should be used.

It's extremely uncommon for Python to call into C code that (a) uses C
stdio, (b) shares the file handle with something else (eg
stdout/stderr), and (c) doesn't have an option to flush its output.
And when that happens, I would consider it a bug, not just because of
the shared handle - if you're piping the output into something else,
you might need to force it to flush its buffer.

ChrisA

From greg.ewing at canterbury.ac.nz  Sat Jan 16 19:02:35 2021
From: greg.ewing at canterbury.ac.nz (Greg Ewing)
Date: Sun, 17 Jan 2021 13:02:35 +1300
Subject: Exploring terminfo
In-Reply-To: <mailman.851.1610840472.7193.python-list@python.org>
References: <rtpqh8$16kg$1@ciao.gmane.io> <rts4ov$10b4$1@ciao.gmane.io>
 <rtsjht$119t$1@ciao.gmane.io> <rtsn50$gg9$1@ciao.gmane.io>
 <mailman.803.1610736862.7193.python-list@python.org>
 <i6f1ftF5mc7U1@mid.individual.net>
 <CAPTjJmrpYbmQPe9C=KfDMvqvfG77rcBjjDNxRpNJaH9X1aK_uw@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.832.1610764684.7193.python-list@python.org>
 <i6f3osF606iU1@mid.individual.net>
 <CAPTjJmp9xRa2U1GsRvanf9BOe0K12XF1Zt89C=H+dHXLMW2xJA@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.834.1610767084.7193.python-list@python.org>
 <i6hba3Fjch9U1@mid.individual.net>
 <CAPTjJmoKoiBLSKZn9shPPyfe3xqVY+OuN_YSBC0LYOH1bBh-LA@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.851.1610840472.7193.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <i6hd4tFjn0vU1@mid.individual.net>

On 17/01/21 12:40 pm, Chris Angelico wrote:
> This is true. However, at some point, the boundary is crossed from
> Python into the C library. Something, at that point, knows. It's very
> common to have a flush option available, so it should be used.

I'm wondering whether the problem in this particular case stems
from trying to use parts of curses without initialising it
properly. I expect that initialising curses would put stdout
into some kind of unbuffered mode, and the rest of it assumes
that this has been done.

-- 
Greg

From rosuav at gmail.com  Sat Jan 16 19:14:32 2021
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Sun, 17 Jan 2021 11:14:32 +1100
Subject: Exploring terminfo
In-Reply-To: <i6hd4tFjn0vU1@mid.individual.net>
References: <rtpqh8$16kg$1@ciao.gmane.io> <rts4ov$10b4$1@ciao.gmane.io>
 <rtsjht$119t$1@ciao.gmane.io> <rtsn50$gg9$1@ciao.gmane.io>
 <mailman.803.1610736862.7193.python-list@python.org>
 <i6f1ftF5mc7U1@mid.individual.net>
 <CAPTjJmrpYbmQPe9C=KfDMvqvfG77rcBjjDNxRpNJaH9X1aK_uw@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.832.1610764684.7193.python-list@python.org>
 <i6f3osF606iU1@mid.individual.net>
 <CAPTjJmp9xRa2U1GsRvanf9BOe0K12XF1Zt89C=H+dHXLMW2xJA@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.834.1610767084.7193.python-list@python.org>
 <i6hba3Fjch9U1@mid.individual.net>
 <CAPTjJmoKoiBLSKZn9shPPyfe3xqVY+OuN_YSBC0LYOH1bBh-LA@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.851.1610840472.7193.python-list@python.org>
 <i6hd4tFjn0vU1@mid.individual.net>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmrzEYUJurLF_BA-9Zp9+rYM8cRwSpapfLu7m-ve679YsQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Jan 17, 2021 at 11:06 AM Greg Ewing <greg.ewing at canterbury.ac.nz> wrote:
>
> On 17/01/21 12:40 pm, Chris Angelico wrote:
> > This is true. However, at some point, the boundary is crossed from
> > Python into the C library. Something, at that point, knows. It's very
> > common to have a flush option available, so it should be used.
>
> I'm wondering whether the problem in this particular case stems
> from trying to use parts of curses without initialising it
> properly. I expect that initialising curses would put stdout
> into some kind of unbuffered mode, and the rest of it assumes
> that this has been done.
>

I'm not familiar with the curses module, but that sounds extremely plausible.

ChrisA

From drsalists at gmail.com  Sat Jan 16 20:15:40 2021
From: drsalists at gmail.com (Dan Stromberg)
Date: Sat, 16 Jan 2021 17:15:40 -0800
Subject: count consecutive elements
In-Reply-To: <462c5e21-a3a8-e086-25d8-5fa9508a068a@gmail.com>
References: <slrnrvup10.dse.Bischoop@vimart.net>
 <462c5e21-a3a8-e086-25d8-5fa9508a068a@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAGGBd_pSWJWfwjMBqC-GkcodXWzi+tBxrk17h90SVTvTsqp_-A@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Jan 14, 2021 at 2:01 PM Wolfram Hinderer via Python-list <
python-list at python.org> wrote:

> Am 13.01.2021 um 22:20 schrieb Bischoop:
> > I want to  to display a number or an alphabet which appears mostly
> > consecutive in a given string or numbers or both
> > Examples
> > s= ' aabskaaabadcccc'
> > output: c
> > # c appears 4 consecutive times
> >   8bbakebaoa
> > output: b
> > #b appears 2 consecutive times
> >
> >
> You can let itertools.groupy find the groups.
>
> max((len(tuple(group)), key) for key, group in itertools.groupby(s))
> # (4, 'c')
>

Does anyone else find the documentation on itertools.groupby kind of
lacking?

I think it makes sense now that I've played around with it though.

Here's a revised solution:
  def get_longest(string: str) -> typing.Tuple[int, typing.List[str]]:
      """Get the longest run of a single consecutive character."""
      if not string:
          return (0, [])
      grouped = itertools.groupby(string)
      grouped_with_lengths = [(len(list(value)), key) for key, value in
grouped]
      max_count_and_letter = max(grouped_with_lengths)
      max_count = max_count_and_letter[0]
      result = (max_count, sorted(list_ for count, list_ in
grouped_with_lengths if count == max_count))
      return result

From eryksun at gmail.com  Sat Jan 16 21:01:06 2021
From: eryksun at gmail.com (Eryk Sun)
Date: Sat, 16 Jan 2021 20:01:06 -0600
Subject: Exploring terminfo
In-Reply-To: <i6hd4tFjn0vU1@mid.individual.net>
References: <rtpqh8$16kg$1@ciao.gmane.io> <rts4ov$10b4$1@ciao.gmane.io>
 <rtsjht$119t$1@ciao.gmane.io> <rtsn50$gg9$1@ciao.gmane.io>
 <mailman.803.1610736862.7193.python-list@python.org>
 <i6f1ftF5mc7U1@mid.individual.net>
 <CAPTjJmrpYbmQPe9C=KfDMvqvfG77rcBjjDNxRpNJaH9X1aK_uw@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.832.1610764684.7193.python-list@python.org>
 <i6f3osF606iU1@mid.individual.net>
 <CAPTjJmp9xRa2U1GsRvanf9BOe0K12XF1Zt89C=H+dHXLMW2xJA@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.834.1610767084.7193.python-list@python.org>
 <i6hba3Fjch9U1@mid.individual.net>
 <CAPTjJmoKoiBLSKZn9shPPyfe3xqVY+OuN_YSBC0LYOH1bBh-LA@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.851.1610840472.7193.python-list@python.org>
 <i6hd4tFjn0vU1@mid.individual.net>
Message-ID: <CACL+1avSvBJy9m8RmRrDxiVpgfsgzQfg6tW7b0fWkZivwOJA9w@mail.gmail.com>

On 1/16/21, Greg Ewing <greg.ewing at canterbury.ac.nz> wrote:
> On 17/01/21 12:40 pm, Chris Angelico wrote:
>> This is true. However, at some point, the boundary is crossed from
>> Python into the C library. Something, at that point, knows. It's very
>> common to have a flush option available, so it should be used.
>
> I'm wondering whether the problem in this particular case stems
> from trying to use parts of curses without initialising it
> properly. I expect that initialising curses would put stdout
> into some kind of unbuffered mode, and the rest of it assumes
> that this has been done.

The buffering mode cannot be changed for an in-use stream: "setvbuf()
... may be used only after opening a stream and before any other
operations have been performed on it". So it would have to open a new
stream, which can only be done legitimately by device or file name via
C freopen(). Code that overwrites the FILE record (e.g. *stdout =
*stream) is not legitimate and cross-platform.

You can force the interpreter to change stdout to unbuffered mode at
startup via `-u` or the PYTHONUNBUFFERED environment variable. In
Linux, there's also the `stdbuf` command (e.g. stdbuf -o0 python
....), which uses an LD_PRELOAD hook to inject a shared library that
calls setvbuf() at process startup. There's no analog to that in
Windows for various reasons.

From 2QdxY4RzWzUUiLuE at potatochowder.com  Sat Jan 16 21:17:46 2021
From: 2QdxY4RzWzUUiLuE at potatochowder.com (2QdxY4RzWzUUiLuE at potatochowder.com)
Date: Sat, 16 Jan 2021 20:17:46 -0600
Subject: A beginning beginner's question about input, output and . . .
In-Reply-To: <dbl60gdkf4e74ob0mcdtr5ffp5bvcjtln3@4ax.com>
References: <i1apvfhooqevl9gkol3ic0itcbdoi0m6a4@4ax.com>
 <87eeiqd7fj.fsf@nightsong.com>
 <3gh60g9dcotpsuln9rot5jn4rpl97bsb0v@4ax.com>
 <YANTBYJyaMdRMz6p@scrozzle>
 <mailman.849.1610830606.7193.python-list@python.org>
 <dbl60gdkf4e74ob0mcdtr5ffp5bvcjtln3@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <YAOeSlnPcIWr3DBy@scrozzle>

On 2021-01-16 at 17:46:13 -0500,
DonK <don81846 at comcast.net.invalid> wrote:

> On Sat, 16 Jan 2021 14:56:37 -0600, 2QdxY4RzWzUUiLuE at potatochowder.com
> wrote:
> 
> >On 2021-01-16 at 15:42:44 -0500,
> >DonK <don81846 at comcast.net.invalid> wrote:

> >> For example, I've found a need to parse text documents quite a number
> >> of times over the years. Basic/VB is great at doing that. How's
> >> Python?
> 
> >
> >Python can do that.  Can you expand on "parse" and "text documents"?
> 
> There's nothing that I have any particular need for at the moment but
> it is something that I've done a number of times over the years. I
> think it's a common need?? 

Indeed.  :-)  In my experience, "parse" and "text documents" often mean
different things to different people.

> I've used Pascal and BASIC\VB for string parsing and BASIC\VB is much
> better. VB has all the string handling functions that you need built
> in but, for example, Pascal has some but you have to create others to
> be useful. Since I'm just beginning with Python I have no knowledge or
> criticism of how Python does this but I'm sure that it can.
> 
> Since I've retired I've written parsers for my bank records, medical
> records and other personally useful things. I would categorize them as
> trivial but useful.  i.e utility means useful
> 
> When I was working, in the 1999-2001 range, I wrote a parser in VB
> that unscrambled corrupted "batch files" for credit card processing so
> that vendors didn't have to spend hours rebuilding them by hand. Some
> of those files had over 700 credit card transactions in them. That's
> one example.

Sounds like you're parsing files composed of lines of plain text where
each line represents some kind of record (as opposed to parsing a
document containing programming code as a precursor to generating an
executable, or looking through a word processing document for something
important).

A bare minimum skeleton might look something like this:

    with open(filename) as f:
        for line in f.readlines():
            handle_one_line(f)

Python has a capable string type for handling text; see
<https://docs.python.org/3/library/string.html>.

Or look into the fileinput module for a convenient way to run through a
collection of files and/or standard input.

> I'm looking forward to learning some Python, mostly for fun, but I'm
> sure that it will also be useful.

Absolutely!  :-)

Happy Hacking!

From chuck.untulis at gmail.com  Sat Jan 16 19:44:01 2021
From: chuck.untulis at gmail.com (Chuck Untulis)
Date: Sat, 16 Jan 2021 16:44:01 -0800
Subject: Using plotly and getting "This site can't be reached"
Message-ID: <CAGXxJ0rikn7KHUcOLaQXfqvg9mMsB0hu3q0A=TjjPey-V9dR2A@mail.gmail.com>

The Chrome browser on the machine shows "127.0.0.1 refused to connect" for
various urls of the form 127.0.0.1:xxxxx where xxxxx are numbers like
64981, 65029,... About once in 20-40 attempts, the graphs appear.

I ran the same code on a different machine and it created the plots in the
Chrome browser every time. I ran a different Python plotly program on both
machines with similar results.

Everything else I navigate to in Chrome works as expected.

No errors are reported by the plotly code shown below. I also ran the code
in Visual Studio Code with the same results.

I would like to see the information sent to the browser but I have not
figured out how to do that yet.

Any help would be appreciated.

=====================================================
import pandas as pd

df = pd.DataFrame({
  "Fruit": ["Apples", "Oranges", "Bananas", "Apples", "Oranges", "Bananas"],
  "Contestant": ["Alex", "Alex", "Alex", "Jordan", "Jordan", "Jordan"],
  "Number Eaten": [2, 1, 3, 1, 3, 2],
})

import plotly.express as px

fig = px.bar(df, x="Fruit", y="Number Eaten", color="Contestant", barmode=
"group")

#print(""PLOT 1")
# fig.show()

import plotly.graph_objects as go

fig = go.Figure()
for contestant, group in df.groupby("Contestant"):
    fig.add_trace(go.Bar(x=group["Fruit"], y=group["Number Eaten"], name
=contestant,
      hovertemplate="Contestant=%s<br>Fruit=%%{x}<br>Number Eaten=%%{y}
<extra></extra>"% contestant))
fig.update_layout(legend_title_text = "Contestant")
fig.update_xaxes(title_text="Fruit")
fig.update_yaxes(title_text="Number Eaten")
print("PLOT 2")
fig.show()

From tjreedy at udel.edu  Sat Jan 16 22:30:20 2021
From: tjreedy at udel.edu (Terry Reedy)
Date: Sat, 16 Jan 2021 22:30:20 -0500
Subject: Python not Running
In-Reply-To: <CAL-Si0qLchjCzqj=ZF=Fnhbhreim49vwpDwFWTnbmyAz7tJdYg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL-Si0qLchjCzqj=ZF=Fnhbhreim49vwpDwFWTnbmyAz7tJdYg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <ru0b0d$kjf$1@ciao.gmane.io>

On 1/16/2021 3:55 PM, Logan Cranford wrote:
> I downloaded Python but when I try to run Idle it says it is not found and

 From where? try how? what is 'it'?
Read the section of
https://docs.python.org/3/using/index.html
appropriate for your system, likely Windows.

> I should try to redownload it. When I try to do that all that comes up is a
> page that says modify, repair or uninstall. I have repaired several times

This sounds like you are rerunning the python installer, not python 
itself.  Doing the latter depends on how you installed.  Read the doc.

> but it still gives me the same message. Can anyone  help me with this?
You can also read answers to similar posts at
https://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-list/


-- 
Terry Jan Reedy


From tjreedy at udel.edu  Sat Jan 16 22:41:43 2021
From: tjreedy at udel.edu (Terry Reedy)
Date: Sat, 16 Jan 2021 22:41:43 -0500
Subject: A beginning beginner's question about input, output and . . .
In-Reply-To: <YAOeSlnPcIWr3DBy@scrozzle>
References: <i1apvfhooqevl9gkol3ic0itcbdoi0m6a4@4ax.com>
 <87eeiqd7fj.fsf@nightsong.com> <3gh60g9dcotpsuln9rot5jn4rpl97bsb0v@4ax.com>
 <YANTBYJyaMdRMz6p@scrozzle>
 <mailman.849.1610830606.7193.python-list@python.org>
 <dbl60gdkf4e74ob0mcdtr5ffp5bvcjtln3@4ax.com> <YAOeSlnPcIWr3DBy@scrozzle>
Message-ID: <ru0blo$kjf$2@ciao.gmane.io>

On 1/16/2021 9:17 PM, 2QdxY4RzWzUUiLuE at potatochowder.com wrote:

> A bare minimum skeleton might look something like this:
> 
>      with open(filename) as f:
>          for line in f.readlines():
>              handle_one_line(f)

f.readlines() reads the entire file into a list of lines (strings).  If 
you do not need that,
             for line in f:
is sufficient for iterating thru the file line by line.

-- 
Terry Jan Reedy


From omidmohammadi9124 at gmail.com  Sun Jan 17 05:20:24 2021
From: omidmohammadi9124 at gmail.com (omid mohammadi)
Date: Sun, 17 Jan 2021 02:20:24 -0800 (PST)
Subject: open sentinel-2image  python
Message-ID: <59b289d3-31af-4da4-a52c-d72fcd87ee3en@googlegroups.com>

Dear all ,
When I open the sentinel-2 image in Python, I get the following error:

MemoryError: Unable to allocate 115. MiB for an array with shape (5490, 5490) and data type float32

How can I fix it?
Thanks

From Karsten.Hilbert at gmx.net  Sun Jan 17 08:57:40 2021
From: Karsten.Hilbert at gmx.net (Karsten Hilbert)
Date: Sun, 17 Jan 2021 14:57:40 +0100
Subject: open sentinel-2image  python
In-Reply-To: <59b289d3-31af-4da4-a52c-d72fcd87ee3en@googlegroups.com>
References: <59b289d3-31af-4da4-a52c-d72fcd87ee3en@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <YARCVFSZhb8vhFFo@hermes.hilbert.loc>

Am Sun, Jan 17, 2021 at 02:20:24AM -0800 schrieb omid mohammadi:

> When I open the sentinel-2 image in Python, I get the following error:
>
> MemoryError: Unable to allocate 115. MiB for an array with shape (5490, 5490) and data type float32
>
> How can I fix it?

You can install more RAM.

Karsten
--
GPG  40BE 5B0E C98E 1713 AFA6  5BC0 3BEA AC80 7D4F C89B

From alan.gauld at yahoo.co.uk  Sun Jan 17 09:34:53 2021
From: alan.gauld at yahoo.co.uk (Alan Gauld)
Date: Sun, 17 Jan 2021 14:34:53 +0000
Subject: Exploring terminfo
In-Reply-To: <i6hd4tFjn0vU1@mid.individual.net>
References: <rtpqh8$16kg$1@ciao.gmane.io> <rts4ov$10b4$1@ciao.gmane.io>
 <rtsjht$119t$1@ciao.gmane.io> <rtsn50$gg9$1@ciao.gmane.io>
 <mailman.803.1610736862.7193.python-list@python.org>
 <i6f1ftF5mc7U1@mid.individual.net>
 <CAPTjJmrpYbmQPe9C=KfDMvqvfG77rcBjjDNxRpNJaH9X1aK_uw@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.832.1610764684.7193.python-list@python.org>
 <i6f3osF606iU1@mid.individual.net>
 <CAPTjJmp9xRa2U1GsRvanf9BOe0K12XF1Zt89C=H+dHXLMW2xJA@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.834.1610767084.7193.python-list@python.org>
 <i6hba3Fjch9U1@mid.individual.net>
 <CAPTjJmoKoiBLSKZn9shPPyfe3xqVY+OuN_YSBC0LYOH1bBh-LA@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.851.1610840472.7193.python-list@python.org>
 <i6hd4tFjn0vU1@mid.individual.net>
Message-ID: <ru1hud$qf5$1@ciao.gmane.io>

On 17/01/2021 00:02, Greg Ewing wrote:
> On 17/01/21 12:40 pm, Chris Angelico wrote:
>> This is true. However, at some point, the boundary is crossed from
>> Python into the C library. Something, at that point, knows. It's very
>> common to have a flush option available, so it should be used.
> 
> I'm wondering whether the problem in this particular case stems
> from trying to use parts of curses without initialising it
> properly.

The problem is terminfo is not really part of curses.
Curses is built on top of terminfo.

> I expect that initialising curses would put stdout
> into some kind of unbuffered mode, 

You can choose the mode, but once in curses all the standard
input/output options cease to be usable, you have to use the
curses functions such as addstr(), getch() etc.

Its precisely because curses is such an all or nothing option
that I wanted to see if I could create some kind of text
attribute control outside of curses - which it seems is
what Cameron has been up to independently!

For example, it is difficult to call a Python function that
has print statements in it (bad practice though it may be!)
from within curses. You need to temporarily turn cures off,
call he function then reinstate curses. It's doable but messy!

If you don't need to create windows and move the cursor
around and respond to mouse clicks etc then curses is a
bit of overkill to just turn some text bold or inverse.
That's where the terminfo functions come in and, as you
saw from the C code, are fairly trivial to use in C.


-- 
Alan G
Author of the Learn to Program web site
http://www.alan-g.me.uk/
http://www.amazon.com/author/alan_gauld
Follow my photo-blog on Flickr at:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/alangauldphotos



From __peter__ at web.de  Sun Jan 17 12:50:17 2021
From: __peter__ at web.de (Peter Otten)
Date: Sun, 17 Jan 2021 18:50:17 +0100
Subject: count consecutive elements
In-Reply-To: <CAGGBd_pSWJWfwjMBqC-GkcodXWzi+tBxrk17h90SVTvTsqp_-A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <slrnrvup10.dse.Bischoop@vimart.net>
 <462c5e21-a3a8-e086-25d8-5fa9508a068a@gmail.com>
 <CAGGBd_pSWJWfwjMBqC-GkcodXWzi+tBxrk17h90SVTvTsqp_-A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <b9ba10a5-ab9d-2f64-5904-d34ecb2ca4a0@web.de>

On 17/01/2021 02:15, Dan Stromberg wrote:

IMO a good set of tests is much more important than type annotations ;)

>    def get_longest(string: str) -> typing.Tuple[int, typing.List[str]]:
>        """Get the longest run of a single consecutive character."""

May I ask why you artificially limit the signature to str?
If there were a signature, shouldn't it be something like

Iterable[E] --> Tuple[int, List[E]]

where E may be anything that has an equality operation?
As someone who has not yet looked seriously into typing: is there a way
to spell this?

>        if not string:
>            return (0, [])
>        grouped = itertools.groupby(string)
>        grouped_with_lengths = [(len(list(value)), key) for key, value in
> grouped]
>        max_count_and_letter = max(grouped_with_lengths)
>        max_count = max_count_and_letter[0]
>        result = (max_count, sorted(list_ for count, list_ in
> grouped_with_lengths if count == max_count))
>        return result

If you want to dabble some more here's a test case you might strive for
your function to pass:

"""
     >>> class A:
     ...     def __init__(self, x):
     ...         self.x = x
     ...     def __eq__(self, other):
     ...         return self.x == other.x
     ...     def __repr__(self):
     ...         return self.x

     >>> get_longest(map(A, "aaabbcccdaa"))
     (3, [a, c])

"""

From __peter__ at web.de  Sun Jan 17 12:50:17 2021
From: __peter__ at web.de (Peter Otten)
Date: Sun, 17 Jan 2021 18:50:17 +0100
Subject: count consecutive elements
In-Reply-To: <CAGGBd_pSWJWfwjMBqC-GkcodXWzi+tBxrk17h90SVTvTsqp_-A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <slrnrvup10.dse.Bischoop@vimart.net>
 <462c5e21-a3a8-e086-25d8-5fa9508a068a@gmail.com>
 <CAGGBd_pSWJWfwjMBqC-GkcodXWzi+tBxrk17h90SVTvTsqp_-A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <b9ba10a5-ab9d-2f64-5904-d34ecb2ca4a0@web.de>

On 17/01/2021 02:15, Dan Stromberg wrote:

IMO a good set of tests is much more important than type annotations ;)

>    def get_longest(string: str) -> typing.Tuple[int, typing.List[str]]:
>        """Get the longest run of a single consecutive character."""

May I ask why you artificially limit the signature to str?
If there were a signature, shouldn't it be something like

Iterable[E] --> Tuple[int, List[E]]

where E may be anything that has an equality operation?
As someone who has not yet looked seriously into typing: is there a way 
to spell this?

>        if not string:
>            return (0, [])
>        grouped = itertools.groupby(string)
>        grouped_with_lengths = [(len(list(value)), key) for key, value in
> grouped]
>        max_count_and_letter = max(grouped_with_lengths)
>        max_count = max_count_and_letter[0]
>        result = (max_count, sorted(list_ for count, list_ in
> grouped_with_lengths if count == max_count))
>        return result

If you want to dabble some more here's a test case you might strive for 
your function to pass:

"""
     >>> class A:
     ...     def __init__(self, x):
     ...         self.x = x
     ...     def __eq__(self, other):
     ...         return self.x == other.x
     ...     def __repr__(self):
     ...         return self.x

     >>> get_longest(map(A, "aaabbcccdaa"))
     (3, [a, c])

"""


From python at mrabarnett.plus.com  Sun Jan 17 13:01:26 2021
From: python at mrabarnett.plus.com (MRAB)
Date: Sun, 17 Jan 2021 18:01:26 +0000
Subject: open sentinel-2image python
In-Reply-To: <YARCVFSZhb8vhFFo@hermes.hilbert.loc>
References: <59b289d3-31af-4da4-a52c-d72fcd87ee3en@googlegroups.com>
 <YARCVFSZhb8vhFFo@hermes.hilbert.loc>
Message-ID: <2b5b4ba0-d16e-f85c-3b8b-0c3981774a54@mrabarnett.plus.com>

On 2021-01-17 13:57, Karsten Hilbert wrote:
> Am Sun, Jan 17, 2021 at 02:20:24AM -0800 schrieb omid mohammadi:
> 
>> When I open the sentinel-2 image in Python, I get the following error:
>>
>> MemoryError: Unable to allocate 115. MiB for an array with shape (5490, 5490) and data type float32
>>
>> How can I fix it?
> 
> You can install more RAM.
> 
Or maybe the OP is running 32-bit Python but the code needs >2GB. If 
that's the case then using 64-bit Python might fix it, assuming that 
it's a 64-bit machine.

From omidmohammadi9124 at gmail.com  Sun Jan 17 14:12:26 2021
From: omidmohammadi9124 at gmail.com (omid mohammadi)
Date: Sun, 17 Jan 2021 11:12:26 -0800 (PST)
Subject: open sentinel-2image python
In-Reply-To: <mailman.863.1610906497.7193.python-list@python.org>
References: <59b289d3-31af-4da4-a52c-d72fcd87ee3en@googlegroups.com>
 <2b5b4ba0-d16e-f85c-3b8b-0c3981774a54@mrabarnett.plus.com>
 <YARCVFSZhb8vhFFo@hermes.hilbert.loc>
 <mailman.863.1610906497.7193.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <27d00fcc-0ef5-4ec6-809f-3163431b1696n@googlegroups.com>

On Sunday, January 17, 2021 at 9:31:58 PM UTC+3:30, MRAB wrote:
> On 2021-01-17 13:57, Karsten Hilbert wrote: 
> > Am Sun, Jan 17, 2021 at 02:20:24AM -0800 schrieb omid mohammadi: 
> >
> >> When I open the sentinel-2 image in Python, I get the following error: 
> >> 
> >> MemoryError: Unable to allocate 115. MiB for an array with shape (5490, 5490) and data type float32 
> >> 
> >> How can I fix it? 
> >
> > You can install more RAM. 
> >
> Or maybe the OP is running 32-bit Python but the code needs >2GB. If 
> that's the case then using 64-bit Python might fix it, assuming that 
> it's a 64-bit machine.

Yes, it is 64.

Excuse me, can you explain how I can fix it?

From PythonList at DancesWithMice.info  Sun Jan 17 14:28:13 2021
From: PythonList at DancesWithMice.info (dn)
Date: Mon, 18 Jan 2021 08:28:13 +1300
Subject: open sentinel-2image python
In-Reply-To: <27d00fcc-0ef5-4ec6-809f-3163431b1696n@googlegroups.com>
References: <59b289d3-31af-4da4-a52c-d72fcd87ee3en@googlegroups.com>
 <2b5b4ba0-d16e-f85c-3b8b-0c3981774a54@mrabarnett.plus.com>
 <YARCVFSZhb8vhFFo@hermes.hilbert.loc>
 <mailman.863.1610906497.7193.python-list@python.org>
 <27d00fcc-0ef5-4ec6-809f-3163431b1696n@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <c335b388-b905-3356-2e57-712877522811@DancesWithMice.info>

On 18/01/2021 08.12, omid mohammadi wrote:
> On Sunday, January 17, 2021 at 9:31:58 PM UTC+3:30, MRAB wrote:
>> On 2021-01-17 13:57, Karsten Hilbert wrote: 
>>> Am Sun, Jan 17, 2021 at 02:20:24AM -0800 schrieb omid mohammadi: 
>>>
>>>> When I open the sentinel-2 image in Python, I get the following error: 
>>>>
>>>> MemoryError: Unable to allocate 115. MiB for an array with shape (5490, 5490) and data type float32 
>>>>
>>>> How can I fix it? 
>>>
>>> You can install more RAM. 
>>>
>> Or maybe the OP is running 32-bit Python but the code needs >2GB. If 
>> that's the case then using 64-bit Python might fix it, assuming that 
>> it's a 64-bit machine.
> 
> Yes, it is 64.
> 
> Excuse me, can you explain how I can fix it?


What is "64" - the machine or the Python package?

>From where did  you download Python?

What is the code being used to read/load the image?

What do you mean by "the sentinel-2 image" - most of the images (which I
spotted in a *quick* survey) made available to the general public are of
the order of tens of mega-bytes. (a URL might help people trying to
replicate the problem!)


Be advised that everyone 'here' is a volunteer. Please help us to help you!
--
Regards =dn


From python at mrabarnett.plus.com  Sun Jan 17 14:42:50 2021
From: python at mrabarnett.plus.com (MRAB)
Date: Sun, 17 Jan 2021 19:42:50 +0000
Subject: open sentinel-2image python
In-Reply-To: <27d00fcc-0ef5-4ec6-809f-3163431b1696n@googlegroups.com>
References: <59b289d3-31af-4da4-a52c-d72fcd87ee3en@googlegroups.com>
 <2b5b4ba0-d16e-f85c-3b8b-0c3981774a54@mrabarnett.plus.com>
 <YARCVFSZhb8vhFFo@hermes.hilbert.loc>
 <mailman.863.1610906497.7193.python-list@python.org>
 <27d00fcc-0ef5-4ec6-809f-3163431b1696n@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <23c7dca6-dab5-d92d-f641-b5f883762ba4@mrabarnett.plus.com>

On 2021-01-17 19:12, omid mohammadi wrote:
> On Sunday, January 17, 2021 at 9:31:58 PM UTC+3:30, MRAB wrote:
>> On 2021-01-17 13:57, Karsten Hilbert wrote: 
>> > Am Sun, Jan 17, 2021 at 02:20:24AM -0800 schrieb omid mohammadi: 
>> >
>> >> When I open the sentinel-2 image in Python, I get the following error: 
>> >> 
>> >> MemoryError: Unable to allocate 115. MiB for an array with shape (5490, 5490) and data type float32 
>> >> 
>> >> How can I fix it? 
>> >
>> > You can install more RAM. 
>> >
>> Or maybe the OP is running 32-bit Python but the code needs >2GB. If 
>> that's the case then using 64-bit Python might fix it, assuming that 
>> it's a 64-bit machine.
> 
> Yes, it is 64.
> 
> Excuse me, can you explain how I can fix it?
> 
Are you using a 32-bit version of Python or a 64-bit version of Python?

If you're not sure, try this from Python:

 >>> import sys
 >>> sys.maxsize.bit_length()

I get 63 because I'm running a 64-bit version of Python 3.

On Windows you can install multiple versions of Python side-by-side. I 
don't know the procedure for Linux or MacOS.

If you're currently using 32-bit Python, you can install the 64-bit 
version in a folder next to the folder of the 32-bit version (I have 
C:\Python39 and C:\Python39-32, for example). Then install any other 
packages you need for the new version.

From robin at reportlab.com  Sun Jan 17 11:16:32 2021
From: robin at reportlab.com (Robin Becker)
Date: Sun, 17 Jan 2021 16:16:32 +0000
Subject: advice on debugging a segfault
Message-ID: <1b1e536b-b90c-e734-48e3-1c0186e6efc9@everest.reportlab.co.uk>

I have a segfault in the 3.10 alpha 4 when running the reportlab document generation; all the other tests seem to have 
worked. I would like to ask experts here how to approach getting the location of the problem. I run recent archlinux.

Below is the output of  a test run with -Xdev -Xtracemalloc; the main process is almost finished so the error appears to 
come from trying to free resources

> $ python -Xdev -Xtracemalloc genuserguide.py 
> /home/robin/devel/reportlab/.py310/lib/python3.10/distutils/__init__.py:1: DeprecationWarning: the imp module is deprecated in favour of importlib; see the module's documentation for alternative uses
>   import imp
> Built story contains 1843 flowables...
> Saved "/home/robin/devel/reportlab/REPOS/reportlab/docs/reportlab-userguide.pdf"
> [ Top 10 ]
> <frozen importlib._bootstrap_external>:630: size=10.5 MiB, count=105832, average=104 B
> /home/robin/devel/reportlab/reportlab/lib/abag.py:19: size=7161 KiB, count=27126, average=270 B
> /home/robin/devel/reportlab/reportlab/platypus/paraparser.py:3141: size=3364 KiB, count=5980, average=576 B
> /home/robin/devel/reportlab/.py310/lib/python3.10/site-packages/pyphen/__init__.py:160: size=2905 KiB, count=41797, average=71 B
> /home/robin/devel/reportlab/reportlab/platypus/paragraph.py:776: size=1386 KiB, count=32208, average=44 B
> /home/robin/devel/reportlab/reportlab/platypus/paragraph.py:92: size=1384 KiB, count=26248, average=54 B
> /home/robin/devel/reportlab/.py310/lib/python3.10/copy.py:280: size=1232 KiB, count=8827, average=143 B
> /home/robin/devel/reportlab/reportlab/platypus/frames.py:155: size=1101 KiB, count=1173, average=962 B
> <frozen importlib._bootstrap>:241: size=915 KiB, count=8146, average=115 B
> /home/robin/devel/reportlab/reportlab/platypus/paragraph.py:773: size=881 KiB, count=16104, average=56 B
> sys:1: ResourceWarning: unclosed file <_io.BufferedReader name='../images/replogo.gif'>
> sys:1: ResourceWarning: unclosed file <_io.BufferedReader name='../images/testimg.gif'>
> Debug memory block at address p=0x5617c33effe0: API ''
>     0 bytes originally requested
>     The 7 pad bytes at p-7 are not all FORBIDDENBYTE (0xfd):
>         at p-7: 0x00 *** OUCH
>         at p-6: 0x00 *** OUCH
>         at p-5: 0x00 *** OUCH
>         at p-4: 0x00 *** OUCH
>         at p-3: 0x00 *** OUCH
>         at p-2: 0x00 *** OUCH
>         at p-1: 0x00 *** OUCH
>     Because memory is corrupted at the start, the count of bytes requested
>        may be bogus, and checking the trailing pad bytes may segfault.
>     The 8 pad bytes at tail=0x5617c33effe0 are not all FORBIDDENBYTE (0xfd):
>         at tail+0: 0x00 *** OUCH
>         at tail+1: 0x00 *** OUCH
>         at tail+2: 0x00 *** OUCH
>         at tail+3: 0x00 *** OUCH
>         at tail+4: 0x00 *** OUCH
>         at tail+5: 0x00 *** OUCH
>         at tail+6: 0x00 *** OUCH
>         at tail+7: 0x00 *** OUCH
> 
> Enable tracemalloc to get the memory block allocation traceback
> 
> Fatal Python error: _PyMem_DebugRawFree: bad ID: Allocated using API '', verified using API 'o'
> Python runtime state: finalizing (tstate=0x5617c53c8b30)
> 
> Current thread 0x00007fd5742b3740 (most recent call first):
> <no Python frame>
> Aborted (core dumped)


for comparison here is the 3.9.1 output> $ python -Xdev -Xtracemalloc genuserguide.py
> /home/robin/devel/reportlab/.py39/lib/python3.9/distutils/__init__.py:1: DeprecationWarning: the imp module is deprecated in favour of importlib; see the module's documentation for alternative uses
>   import imp
> /home/robin/devel/reportlab/.py39/lib/python3.9/site-packages/fontTools/misc/py23.py:11: DeprecationWarning: The py23 module has been deprecated and will be removed in the next release. Please update your code.
>   warnings.warn(
> Built story contains 1843 flowables...
> Saved "/home/robin/devel/reportlab/REPOS/reportlab/docs/reportlab-userguide.pdf"
> [ Top 10 ]
> <frozen importlib._bootstrap_external>:587: size=12.4 MiB, count=128010, average=102 B
> /home/robin/devel/reportlab/reportlab/lib/abag.py:19: size=7132 KiB, count=26951, average=271 B
> /home/robin/devel/reportlab/reportlab/platypus/paraparser.py:3141: size=3364 KiB, count=5980, average=576 B
> /home/robin/devel/reportlab/.py39/lib/python3.9/site-packages/pyphen/__init__.py:160: size=2905 KiB, count=41797, average=71 B
> /home/robin/devel/reportlab/reportlab/platypus/paragraph.py:776: size=1386 KiB, count=32208, average=44 B
> /home/robin/devel/reportlab/reportlab/platypus/paragraph.py:92: size=1384 KiB, count=26248, average=54 B
> /home/robin/devel/reportlab/.py39/lib/python3.9/copy.py:279: size=1230 KiB, count=8827, average=143 B
> /home/robin/devel/reportlab/reportlab/platypus/frames.py:155: size=1039 KiB, count=957, average=1112 B
> <frozen importlib._bootstrap>:228: size=959 KiB, count=8503, average=116 B
> /home/robin/devel/reportlab/reportlab/platypus/paragraph.py:773: size=881 KiB, count=16104, average=56 B
> sys:1: ResourceWarning: unclosed file <_io.BufferedReader name='../images/replogo.gif'>
> sys:1: ResourceWarning: unclosed file <_io.BufferedReader name='../images/testimg.gif'>



From grant.b.edwards at gmail.com  Sun Jan 17 13:03:42 2021
From: grant.b.edwards at gmail.com (Grant Edwards)
Date: Sun, 17 Jan 2021 18:03:42 -0000 (UTC)
Subject: Exploring terminfo
References: <rtpqh8$16kg$1@ciao.gmane.io> <rts4ov$10b4$1@ciao.gmane.io>
 <rtsjht$119t$1@ciao.gmane.io> <rtsn50$gg9$1@ciao.gmane.io>
 <mailman.803.1610736862.7193.python-list@python.org>
 <i6f1ftF5mc7U1@mid.individual.net>
 <CAPTjJmrpYbmQPe9C=KfDMvqvfG77rcBjjDNxRpNJaH9X1aK_uw@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.832.1610764684.7193.python-list@python.org>
 <i6f3osF606iU1@mid.individual.net>
 <CAPTjJmp9xRa2U1GsRvanf9BOe0K12XF1Zt89C=H+dHXLMW2xJA@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.834.1610767084.7193.python-list@python.org>
 <i6hba3Fjch9U1@mid.individual.net>
 <CAPTjJmoKoiBLSKZn9shPPyfe3xqVY+OuN_YSBC0LYOH1bBh-LA@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.851.1610840472.7193.python-list@python.org>
 <i6hd4tFjn0vU1@mid.individual.net>
Message-ID: <ru1u5u$bnf$1@ciao.gmane.io>

On 2021-01-17, Greg Ewing <greg.ewing at canterbury.ac.nz> wrote:
> On 17/01/21 12:40 pm, Chris Angelico wrote:
>> This is true. However, at some point, the boundary is crossed from
>> Python into the C library. Something, at that point, knows. It's very
>> common to have a flush option available, so it should be used.
>
> I'm wondering whether the problem in this particular case stems
> from trying to use parts of curses without initialising it
> properly.

No.

> I expect that initialising curses would put stdout into some kind of
> unbuffered mode, and the rest of it assumes that this has been done.

No.

--
Grant





From barry at barrys-emacs.org  Sun Jan 17 16:24:59 2021
From: barry at barrys-emacs.org (Barry)
Date: Sun, 17 Jan 2021 21:24:59 +0000
Subject: advice on debugging a segfault
In-Reply-To: <1b1e536b-b90c-e734-48e3-1c0186e6efc9@everest.reportlab.co.uk>
References: <1b1e536b-b90c-e734-48e3-1c0186e6efc9@everest.reportlab.co.uk>
Message-ID: <76AEA799-04E1-44E3-8936-C1DA790D62BB@barrys-emacs.org>

Run python under gdb and when the segv  happens use
the gdb bt command to get a stack trace.

Also if gdb says that it needs debug symbols install you will need to
do that. Otherwise the not will not contain symbols.

Barry

> On 17 Jan 2021, at 19:58, Robin Becker <robin at reportlab.com> wrote:
> 
> ?I have a segfault in the 3.10 alpha 4 when running the reportlab document generation; all the other tests seem to have worked. I would like to ask experts here how to approach getting the location of the problem. I run recent archlinux.
> 
> Below is the output of  a test run with -Xdev -Xtracemalloc; the main process is almost finished so the error appears to come from trying to free resources
> 
>> $ python -Xdev -Xtracemalloc genuserguide.py /home/robin/devel/reportlab/.py310/lib/python3.10/distutils/__init__.py:1: DeprecationWarning: the imp module is deprecated in favour of importlib; see the module's documentation for alternative uses
>>  import imp
>> Built story contains 1843 flowables...
>> Saved "/home/robin/devel/reportlab/REPOS/reportlab/docs/reportlab-userguide.pdf"
>> [ Top 10 ]
>> <frozen importlib._bootstrap_external>:630: size=10.5 MiB, count=105832, average=104 B
>> /home/robin/devel/reportlab/reportlab/lib/abag.py:19: size=7161 KiB, count=27126, average=270 B
>> /home/robin/devel/reportlab/reportlab/platypus/paraparser.py:3141: size=3364 KiB, count=5980, average=576 B
>> /home/robin/devel/reportlab/.py310/lib/python3.10/site-packages/pyphen/__init__.py:160: size=2905 KiB, count=41797, average=71 B
>> /home/robin/devel/reportlab/reportlab/platypus/paragraph.py:776: size=1386 KiB, count=32208, average=44 B
>> /home/robin/devel/reportlab/reportlab/platypus/paragraph.py:92: size=1384 KiB, count=26248, average=54 B
>> /home/robin/devel/reportlab/.py310/lib/python3.10/copy.py:280: size=1232 KiB, count=8827, average=143 B
>> /home/robin/devel/reportlab/reportlab/platypus/frames.py:155: size=1101 KiB, count=1173, average=962 B
>> <frozen importlib._bootstrap>:241: size=915 KiB, count=8146, average=115 B
>> /home/robin/devel/reportlab/reportlab/platypus/paragraph.py:773: size=881 KiB, count=16104, average=56 B
>> sys:1: ResourceWarning: unclosed file <_io.BufferedReader name='../images/replogo.gif'>
>> sys:1: ResourceWarning: unclosed file <_io.BufferedReader name='../images/testimg.gif'>
>> Debug memory block at address p=0x5617c33effe0: API ''
>>    0 bytes originally requested
>>    The 7 pad bytes at p-7 are not all FORBIDDENBYTE (0xfd):
>>        at p-7: 0x00 *** OUCH
>>        at p-6: 0x00 *** OUCH
>>        at p-5: 0x00 *** OUCH
>>        at p-4: 0x00 *** OUCH
>>        at p-3: 0x00 *** OUCH
>>        at p-2: 0x00 *** OUCH
>>        at p-1: 0x00 *** OUCH
>>    Because memory is corrupted at the start, the count of bytes requested
>>       may be bogus, and checking the trailing pad bytes may segfault.
>>    The 8 pad bytes at tail=0x5617c33effe0 are not all FORBIDDENBYTE (0xfd):
>>        at tail+0: 0x00 *** OUCH
>>        at tail+1: 0x00 *** OUCH
>>        at tail+2: 0x00 *** OUCH
>>        at tail+3: 0x00 *** OUCH
>>        at tail+4: 0x00 *** OUCH
>>        at tail+5: 0x00 *** OUCH
>>        at tail+6: 0x00 *** OUCH
>>        at tail+7: 0x00 *** OUCH
>> Enable tracemalloc to get the memory block allocation traceback
>> Fatal Python error: _PyMem_DebugRawFree: bad ID: Allocated using API '', verified using API 'o'
>> Python runtime state: finalizing (tstate=0x5617c53c8b30)
>> Current thread 0x00007fd5742b3740 (most recent call first):
>> <no Python frame>
>> Aborted (core dumped)
> 
> 
> for comparison here is the 3.9.1 output> $ python -Xdev -Xtracemalloc genuserguide.py
>> /home/robin/devel/reportlab/.py39/lib/python3.9/distutils/__init__.py:1: DeprecationWarning: the imp module is deprecated in favour of importlib; see the module's documentation for alternative uses
>>  import imp
>> /home/robin/devel/reportlab/.py39/lib/python3.9/site-packages/fontTools/misc/py23.py:11: DeprecationWarning: The py23 module has been deprecated and will be removed in the next release. Please update your code.
>>  warnings.warn(
>> Built story contains 1843 flowables...
>> Saved "/home/robin/devel/reportlab/REPOS/reportlab/docs/reportlab-userguide.pdf"
>> [ Top 10 ]
>> <frozen importlib._bootstrap_external>:587: size=12.4 MiB, count=128010, average=102 B
>> /home/robin/devel/reportlab/reportlab/lib/abag.py:19: size=7132 KiB, count=26951, average=271 B
>> /home/robin/devel/reportlab/reportlab/platypus/paraparser.py:3141: size=3364 KiB, count=5980, average=576 B
>> /home/robin/devel/reportlab/.py39/lib/python3.9/site-packages/pyphen/__init__.py:160: size=2905 KiB, count=41797, average=71 B
>> /home/robin/devel/reportlab/reportlab/platypus/paragraph.py:776: size=1386 KiB, count=32208, average=44 B
>> /home/robin/devel/reportlab/reportlab/platypus/paragraph.py:92: size=1384 KiB, count=26248, average=54 B
>> /home/robin/devel/reportlab/.py39/lib/python3.9/copy.py:279: size=1230 KiB, count=8827, average=143 B
>> /home/robin/devel/reportlab/reportlab/platypus/frames.py:155: size=1039 KiB, count=957, average=1112 B
>> <frozen importlib._bootstrap>:228: size=959 KiB, count=8503, average=116 B
>> /home/robin/devel/reportlab/reportlab/platypus/paragraph.py:773: size=881 KiB, count=16104, average=56 B
>> sys:1: ResourceWarning: unclosed file <_io.BufferedReader name='../images/replogo.gif'>
>> sys:1: ResourceWarning: unclosed file <_io.BufferedReader name='../images/testimg.gif'>
> 
> 
> -- 
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
> 


From stestagg at gmail.com  Sun Jan 17 16:35:56 2021
From: stestagg at gmail.com (Stestagg)
Date: Sun, 17 Jan 2021 21:35:56 +0000
Subject: advice on debugging a segfault
In-Reply-To: <76AEA799-04E1-44E3-8936-C1DA790D62BB@barrys-emacs.org>
References: <1b1e536b-b90c-e734-48e3-1c0186e6efc9@everest.reportlab.co.uk>
 <76AEA799-04E1-44E3-8936-C1DA790D62BB@barrys-emacs.org>
Message-ID: <CACFDE8Y5PM=jKKcw_Bbvpf3eoiATW+WVoN0NFYRpgKCeYN94Ww@mail.gmail.com>

I would normally agree, except...

This is a refcount issue (I was able to reproduce the problem, gbd shows a
free error )

And I wouldn't recommend DGBing a refcount issue as a beginner to debugging.

The other mailing list identified a PIL bug that messes up the refcount for
True, but this refcount issue is for some tuple object, so may possibly be
a different problem.

Steve

On Sun, Jan 17, 2021 at 9:27 PM Barry <barry at barrys-emacs.org> wrote:

> Run python under gdb and when the segv  happens use
> the gdb bt command to get a stack trace.
>
> Also if gdb says that it needs debug symbols install you will need to
> do that. Otherwise the not will not contain symbols.
>
> Barry
>
> > On 17 Jan 2021, at 19:58, Robin Becker <robin at reportlab.com> wrote:
> >
> > ?I have a segfault in the 3.10 alpha 4 when running the reportlab
> document generation; all the other tests seem to have worked. I would like
> to ask experts here how to approach getting the location of the problem. I
> run recent archlinux.
> >
> > Below is the output of  a test run with -Xdev -Xtracemalloc; the main
> process is almost finished so the error appears to come from trying to free
> resources
> >
> >> $ python -Xdev -Xtracemalloc genuserguide.py
> /home/robin/devel/reportlab/.py310/lib/python3.10/distutils/__init__.py:1:
> DeprecationWarning: the imp module is deprecated in favour of importlib;
> see the module's documentation for alternative uses
> >>  import imp
> >> Built story contains 1843 flowables...
> >> Saved
> "/home/robin/devel/reportlab/REPOS/reportlab/docs/reportlab-userguide.pdf"
> >> [ Top 10 ]
> >> <frozen importlib._bootstrap_external>:630: size=10.5 MiB,
> count=105832, average=104 B
> >> /home/robin/devel/reportlab/reportlab/lib/abag.py:19: size=7161 KiB,
> count=27126, average=270 B
> >> /home/robin/devel/reportlab/reportlab/platypus/paraparser.py:3141:
> size=3364 KiB, count=5980, average=576 B
> >>
> /home/robin/devel/reportlab/.py310/lib/python3.10/site-packages/pyphen/__init__.py:160:
> size=2905 KiB, count=41797, average=71 B
> >> /home/robin/devel/reportlab/reportlab/platypus/paragraph.py:776:
> size=1386 KiB, count=32208, average=44 B
> >> /home/robin/devel/reportlab/reportlab/platypus/paragraph.py:92:
> size=1384 KiB, count=26248, average=54 B
> >> /home/robin/devel/reportlab/.py310/lib/python3.10/copy.py:280:
> size=1232 KiB, count=8827, average=143 B
> >> /home/robin/devel/reportlab/reportlab/platypus/frames.py:155: size=1101
> KiB, count=1173, average=962 B
> >> <frozen importlib._bootstrap>:241: size=915 KiB, count=8146,
> average=115 B
> >> /home/robin/devel/reportlab/reportlab/platypus/paragraph.py:773:
> size=881 KiB, count=16104, average=56 B
> >> sys:1: ResourceWarning: unclosed file <_io.BufferedReader
> name='../images/replogo.gif'>
> >> sys:1: ResourceWarning: unclosed file <_io.BufferedReader
> name='../images/testimg.gif'>
> >> Debug memory block at address p=0x5617c33effe0: API ''
> >>    0 bytes originally requested
> >>    The 7 pad bytes at p-7 are not all FORBIDDENBYTE (0xfd):
> >>        at p-7: 0x00 *** OUCH
> >>        at p-6: 0x00 *** OUCH
> >>        at p-5: 0x00 *** OUCH
> >>        at p-4: 0x00 *** OUCH
> >>        at p-3: 0x00 *** OUCH
> >>        at p-2: 0x00 *** OUCH
> >>        at p-1: 0x00 *** OUCH
> >>    Because memory is corrupted at the start, the count of bytes
> requested
> >>       may be bogus, and checking the trailing pad bytes may segfault.
> >>    The 8 pad bytes at tail=0x5617c33effe0 are not all FORBIDDENBYTE
> (0xfd):
> >>        at tail+0: 0x00 *** OUCH
> >>        at tail+1: 0x00 *** OUCH
> >>        at tail+2: 0x00 *** OUCH
> >>        at tail+3: 0x00 *** OUCH
> >>        at tail+4: 0x00 *** OUCH
> >>        at tail+5: 0x00 *** OUCH
> >>        at tail+6: 0x00 *** OUCH
> >>        at tail+7: 0x00 *** OUCH
> >> Enable tracemalloc to get the memory block allocation traceback
> >> Fatal Python error: _PyMem_DebugRawFree: bad ID: Allocated using API
> '', verified using API 'o'
> >> Python runtime state: finalizing (tstate=0x5617c53c8b30)
> >> Current thread 0x00007fd5742b3740 (most recent call first):
> >> <no Python frame>
> >> Aborted (core dumped)
> >
> >
> > for comparison here is the 3.9.1 output> $ python -Xdev -Xtracemalloc
> genuserguide.py
> >>
> /home/robin/devel/reportlab/.py39/lib/python3.9/distutils/__init__.py:1:
> DeprecationWarning: the imp module is deprecated in favour of importlib;
> see the module's documentation for alternative uses
> >>  import imp
> >>
> /home/robin/devel/reportlab/.py39/lib/python3.9/site-packages/fontTools/misc/py23.py:11:
> DeprecationWarning: The py23 module has been deprecated and will be removed
> in the next release. Please update your code.
> >>  warnings.warn(
> >> Built story contains 1843 flowables...
> >> Saved
> "/home/robin/devel/reportlab/REPOS/reportlab/docs/reportlab-userguide.pdf"
> >> [ Top 10 ]
> >> <frozen importlib._bootstrap_external>:587: size=12.4 MiB,
> count=128010, average=102 B
> >> /home/robin/devel/reportlab/reportlab/lib/abag.py:19: size=7132 KiB,
> count=26951, average=271 B
> >> /home/robin/devel/reportlab/reportlab/platypus/paraparser.py:3141:
> size=3364 KiB, count=5980, average=576 B
> >>
> /home/robin/devel/reportlab/.py39/lib/python3.9/site-packages/pyphen/__init__.py:160:
> size=2905 KiB, count=41797, average=71 B
> >> /home/robin/devel/reportlab/reportlab/platypus/paragraph.py:776:
> size=1386 KiB, count=32208, average=44 B
> >> /home/robin/devel/reportlab/reportlab/platypus/paragraph.py:92:
> size=1384 KiB, count=26248, average=54 B
> >> /home/robin/devel/reportlab/.py39/lib/python3.9/copy.py:279: size=1230
> KiB, count=8827, average=143 B
> >> /home/robin/devel/reportlab/reportlab/platypus/frames.py:155: size=1039
> KiB, count=957, average=1112 B
> >> <frozen importlib._bootstrap>:228: size=959 KiB, count=8503,
> average=116 B
> >> /home/robin/devel/reportlab/reportlab/platypus/paragraph.py:773:
> size=881 KiB, count=16104, average=56 B
> >> sys:1: ResourceWarning: unclosed file <_io.BufferedReader
> name='../images/replogo.gif'>
> >> sys:1: ResourceWarning: unclosed file <_io.BufferedReader
> name='../images/testimg.gif'>
> >
> >
> > --
> > https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
> >
>
> --
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
>

From grant.b.edwards at gmail.com  Sun Jan 17 16:56:45 2021
From: grant.b.edwards at gmail.com (Grant Edwards)
Date: Sun, 17 Jan 2021 21:56:45 -0000 (UTC)
Subject: Exploring terminfo
References: <rtpqh8$16kg$1@ciao.gmane.io> <rts4ov$10b4$1@ciao.gmane.io>
 <rtsjht$119t$1@ciao.gmane.io> <rtsn50$gg9$1@ciao.gmane.io>
 <mailman.803.1610736862.7193.python-list@python.org>
 <i6f1ftF5mc7U1@mid.individual.net>
 <CAPTjJmrpYbmQPe9C=KfDMvqvfG77rcBjjDNxRpNJaH9X1aK_uw@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.832.1610764684.7193.python-list@python.org>
 <i6f3osF606iU1@mid.individual.net>
 <CAPTjJmp9xRa2U1GsRvanf9BOe0K12XF1Zt89C=H+dHXLMW2xJA@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.834.1610767084.7193.python-list@python.org>
 <i6hba3Fjch9U1@mid.individual.net>
 <CAPTjJmoKoiBLSKZn9shPPyfe3xqVY+OuN_YSBC0LYOH1bBh-LA@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.851.1610840472.7193.python-list@python.org>
 <i6hd4tFjn0vU1@mid.individual.net> <ru1u5u$bnf$1@ciao.gmane.io>
Message-ID: <ru2bqt$13ko$1@ciao.gmane.io>

On 2021-01-17, Grant Edwards <grant.b.edwards at gmail.com> wrote:
> On 2021-01-17, Greg Ewing <greg.ewing at canterbury.ac.nz> wrote:
>> On 17/01/21 12:40 pm, Chris Angelico wrote:
>>> This is true. However, at some point, the boundary is crossed from
>>> Python into the C library. Something, at that point, knows. It's very
>>> common to have a flush option available, so it should be used.
>>
>> I'm wondering whether the problem in this particular case stems
>> from trying to use parts of curses without initialising it
>> properly.
>
> No.
>
>> I expect that initialising curses would put stdout into some kind of
>> unbuffered mode, and the rest of it assumes that this has been done.
>
> No.

I should clarify. The case in question isn't using curses. It's only
using the terminfo calls, and the terminfo stuff is being properly
initialized.

As I previously explained, the problem with the OP's code is that
ncurses.putp() is writing to libc's FILE *stdout (which does
buffering).  Python's stdout/stderr objects do not use FILE
*stdout/*stderr, but instead do their own buffering before writing to
the file descriptors. There are three ways to do what the OP is trying
to do:

 1. Use ctypes to call fflush(stdout) before doing a print() or
    sys.stdout.write(), and call sys.stdout.flush() before calling
    curses.putp().

 2. Don't use putp(). Use the terminfo calls to construct the escape
    sequences  and then write them with print() or sys.stdout.write().

 3. Replace sys.stdout.buffer and sys.stderr.buffer with a custom
    objects that uses ctypes to call fwrite() instead of writing
    directly to the file descriptor.

I've posted examples of #1 and #2, I'll try #3 when I have more spare
time.

I thought it might be possible to use curses.tputs() with a callback
that writes to sys.stdout, but the curses module doesn't provide tput,
it only provides putp (which is far less flexible).

--
Grant

 



From greg.ewing at canterbury.ac.nz  Sun Jan 17 19:23:53 2021
From: greg.ewing at canterbury.ac.nz (Greg Ewing)
Date: Mon, 18 Jan 2021 13:23:53 +1300
Subject: Exploring terminfo
In-Reply-To: <mailman.860.1610895019.7193.python-list@python.org>
References: <rtpqh8$16kg$1@ciao.gmane.io> <rts4ov$10b4$1@ciao.gmane.io>
 <rtsjht$119t$1@ciao.gmane.io> <rtsn50$gg9$1@ciao.gmane.io>
 <mailman.803.1610736862.7193.python-list@python.org>
 <i6f1ftF5mc7U1@mid.individual.net>
 <CAPTjJmrpYbmQPe9C=KfDMvqvfG77rcBjjDNxRpNJaH9X1aK_uw@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.832.1610764684.7193.python-list@python.org>
 <i6f3osF606iU1@mid.individual.net>
 <CAPTjJmp9xRa2U1GsRvanf9BOe0K12XF1Zt89C=H+dHXLMW2xJA@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.834.1610767084.7193.python-list@python.org>
 <i6hba3Fjch9U1@mid.individual.net>
 <CAPTjJmoKoiBLSKZn9shPPyfe3xqVY+OuN_YSBC0LYOH1bBh-LA@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.851.1610840472.7193.python-list@python.org>
 <i6hd4tFjn0vU1@mid.individual.net> <ru1hud$qf5$1@ciao.gmane.io>
 <mailman.860.1610895019.7193.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <i6k2orF53k5U1@mid.individual.net>

On 18/01/21 3:34 am, Alan Gauld wrote:
> The problem is terminfo is not really part of curses.
> Curses is built on top of terminfo.

As far as I can tell from the man pages, terminfo itself
is just a file format. The only programmatic interfaces I
can find for it *are* part of curses:

del_curterm(3x), mvcur(3x), putp(3x), restartterm(3x), set_curterm(3x), 
setterm(3x), setupterm(3x), tigetflag(3x), tigetnum(3x), tigetstr(3x), 
tparm(3x), tputs(3x), vid_attr(3x), vid_puts(3x), vidattr(3x), 
vidputs(3x) - curses interfaces to terminfo database

tgetent(3x), tgetflag(3x), tgetnum(3x), tgetstr(3x), tgoto(3x), 
tputs(3x) - direct curses interface to the terminfo capability database

-- 
Greg


From robin at reportlab.com  Mon Jan 18 03:36:38 2021
From: robin at reportlab.com (Robin Becker)
Date: Mon, 18 Jan 2021 08:36:38 +0000
Subject: advice on debugging a segfault
In-Reply-To: <CACFDE8Y5PM=jKKcw_Bbvpf3eoiATW+WVoN0NFYRpgKCeYN94Ww@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1b1e536b-b90c-e734-48e3-1c0186e6efc9@everest.reportlab.co.uk>
 <76AEA799-04E1-44E3-8936-C1DA790D62BB@barrys-emacs.org>
 <CACFDE8Y5PM=jKKcw_Bbvpf3eoiATW+WVoN0NFYRpgKCeYN94Ww@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <a50aa90e-dce6-a266-1091-4cb7d4cc9d37@everest.reportlab.co.uk>

On 17/01/2021 21:35, Stestagg wrote:
> I would normally agree, except...
> 
> This is a refcount issue (I was able to reproduce the problem, gbd shows a
> free error )
> 
> And I wouldn't recommend DGBing a refcount issue as a beginner to debugging.
> 
> The other mailing list identified a PIL bug that messes up the refcount for
> True, but this refcount issue is for some tuple object, so may possibly be
> a different problem.
> 
> Steve
..........
thanks for all the advice and apologies for the noise. It turns out that Victor Stinner's recommendation in the dev list 
was the solution as I don't see the segfault with pillow built from latest git

Pillow @ git+git://github.com/python-pillow/pillow.git at 8dc5f692dbd9a418d8c441f0e2aa09a3f5c03508

I did realize that this must be a late issue in the process as the pdf was being produced and written as expected and 
that is normally the end of things
--
not segfaulting-ly yrs Robin Becker

From robin at reportlab.com  Mon Jan 18 03:36:38 2021
From: robin at reportlab.com (Robin Becker)
Date: Mon, 18 Jan 2021 08:36:38 +0000
Subject: advice on debugging a segfault
In-Reply-To: <CACFDE8Y5PM=jKKcw_Bbvpf3eoiATW+WVoN0NFYRpgKCeYN94Ww@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1b1e536b-b90c-e734-48e3-1c0186e6efc9@everest.reportlab.co.uk>
 <76AEA799-04E1-44E3-8936-C1DA790D62BB@barrys-emacs.org>
 <CACFDE8Y5PM=jKKcw_Bbvpf3eoiATW+WVoN0NFYRpgKCeYN94Ww@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <a50aa90e-dce6-a266-1091-4cb7d4cc9d37@everest.reportlab.co.uk>

On 17/01/2021 21:35, Stestagg wrote:
> I would normally agree, except...
> 
> This is a refcount issue (I was able to reproduce the problem, gbd shows a
> free error )
> 
> And I wouldn't recommend DGBing a refcount issue as a beginner to debugging.
> 
> The other mailing list identified a PIL bug that messes up the refcount for
> True, but this refcount issue is for some tuple object, so may possibly be
> a different problem.
> 
> Steve
..........
thanks for all the advice and apologies for the noise. It turns out that Victor Stinner's recommendation in the dev list 
was the solution as I don't see the segfault with pillow built from latest git

Pillow @ git+git://github.com/python-pillow/pillow.git at 8dc5f692dbd9a418d8c441f0e2aa09a3f5c03508

I did realize that this must be a late issue in the process as the pdf was being produced and written as expected and 
that is normally the end of things
--
not segfaulting-ly yrs Robin Becker


From random832 at fastmail.com  Mon Jan 18 17:14:48 2021
From: random832 at fastmail.com (Random832)
Date: Mon, 18 Jan 2021 17:14:48 -0500
Subject: Exploring terminfo
In-Reply-To: <rtsnb4$i53$1@ciao.gmane.io>
References: <rtpqh8$16kg$1@ciao.gmane.io> <rts4ov$10b4$1@ciao.gmane.io>
 <rtsjht$119t$1@ciao.gmane.io> <rtsnb4$i53$1@ciao.gmane.io>
Message-ID: <2c14f8fc-55d6-4d3f-bd46-9ef4e225acf7@www.fastmail.com>

On Fri, Jan 15, 2021, at 13:36, Alan Gauld via Python-list wrote:
> That could make a big difference, the putp() function specifically
> states that it writes to stdout.

I think there is a reasonable argument that this is a deficiency of the curses module.

I think that the curses module should A) expose a version of tputs that accepts a python callback to process each output byte B) expose a version of putp that uses python's stdout[.buffer].write rather than C's putchar.

From grant.b.edwards at gmail.com  Mon Jan 18 18:00:59 2021
From: grant.b.edwards at gmail.com (Grant Edwards)
Date: Mon, 18 Jan 2021 23:00:59 -0000 (UTC)
Subject: Exploring terminfo
References: <rtpqh8$16kg$1@ciao.gmane.io> <rts4ov$10b4$1@ciao.gmane.io>
 <rtsjht$119t$1@ciao.gmane.io> <rtsnb4$i53$1@ciao.gmane.io>
 <2c14f8fc-55d6-4d3f-bd46-9ef4e225acf7@www.fastmail.com>
Message-ID: <ru53vb$qi4$1@ciao.gmane.io>

On 2021-01-18, Random832 <random832 at fastmail.com> wrote:
> On Fri, Jan 15, 2021, at 13:36, Alan Gauld via Python-list wrote:
>> That could make a big difference, the putp() function specifically
>> states that it writes to stdout.
>
> I think there is a reasonable argument that this is a deficiency of
> the curses module.
>
> I think that the curses module should A) expose a version of tputs
> that accepts a python callback to process each output byte B) expose
> a version of putp that uses python's stdout[.buffer].write rather
> than C's putchar.

Agreed.

I tried to use ctypes to call tputs with a Python callback that wrote
to sys.stdout, but was unable to get it to work.

FWIW, I've written up notes on the problem and provided demos of
various solutions:

  https://github.com/GrantEdwards/Python-curses-and-terminfo


From alan.gauld at yahoo.co.uk  Mon Jan 18 20:34:35 2021
From: alan.gauld at yahoo.co.uk (Alan Gauld)
Date: Tue, 19 Jan 2021 01:34:35 +0000
Subject: Exploring terminfo
In-Reply-To: <2c14f8fc-55d6-4d3f-bd46-9ef4e225acf7@www.fastmail.com>
References: <rtpqh8$16kg$1@ciao.gmane.io> <rts4ov$10b4$1@ciao.gmane.io>
 <rtsjht$119t$1@ciao.gmane.io> <rtsnb4$i53$1@ciao.gmane.io>
 <2c14f8fc-55d6-4d3f-bd46-9ef4e225acf7@www.fastmail.com>
Message-ID: <ru5cvb$5lv$1@ciao.gmane.io>

On 18/01/2021 22:14, Random832 wrote:
> On Fri, Jan 15, 2021, at 13:36, Alan Gauld via Python-list wrote:
>> That could make a big difference, the putp() function specifically
>> states that it writes to stdout.
> 
> I think there is a reasonable argument that this is a deficiency of the curses module.
> 
> I think that the curses module should ..> B) expose a version of putp that uses pthon's stdout[.buffer].write
rather than C's putchar.

To be fair that's a limitation of the C curses library. putp() is a
wrapper around tputs() even there, and you can't change what it does.
The gap in the curses module is that it doesn't offer the tputs()
option as an alternative.

But there are quite a lot of gaps in the curses module it's just
that most folks don't use them so nobody complains or takes action
to add them.

I've been using curses (C and python) for nearly 30 years and
this is the first time I've ever used the tiXXX functions,  and it
was mainly just out of curiosity rather than real need.


-- 
Alan G
Author of the Learn to Program web site
http://www.alan-g.me.uk/
http://www.amazon.com/author/alan_gauld
Follow my photo-blog on Flickr at:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/alangauldphotos



From mgogala at yahoo.com  Mon Jan 18 22:26:50 2021
From: mgogala at yahoo.com (Mladen Gogala)
Date: Tue, 19 Jan 2021 03:26:50 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: Python not Running
References: <CAL-Si0qLchjCzqj=ZF=Fnhbhreim49vwpDwFWTnbmyAz7tJdYg@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.850.1610840293.7193.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <ru5jhq$1ksk$1@gioia.aioe.org>

On Sat, 16 Jan 2021 14:55:26 -0600, Logan Cranford wrote:

> I downloaded Python but when I try to run Idle it says it is not found
> and I should try to redownload it. When I try to do that all that comes
> up is a page that says modify, repair or uninstall. I have repaired
> several times but it still gives me the same message. Can anyone  help
> me with this?

Have you tried with Perl? What is your OS and how are you trying to run
it? I would suggest doing "sudo bash" and on the root prompt do this:

dnf -y install python3

When you type "which python", your OS should tell you where your Python
is:

[mgogala at umajor tmp]$ which python
/usr/bin/python

You can further test by echoing Python version:


[mgogala at umajor tmp]$ python -V
Python 3.9.1


If you see something like C:\ prompt, then install Cygwin and use your 
Python from Cygwin. Your goal is have bash and vi editor. If that is an
option, reformat your boot drive and install Ubuntu, Mint or Fedora.

[mgogala at umajor tmp]$ cat /etc/redhat-release
Fedora release 33 (Thirty Three)
[mgogala at umajor tmp]$ 

Visual studio code is available both on Linux and Windows and is freaking 
awesome. No need to run Idle. Idle is a flint ax when compared to VSCode. 
VSCode supports auto-completion, formatting and many other things that 
you cannot even dream of in Idle.

PS:
Since you're most probably using Winduhs, use regedit and modify your PATH
variable. Your python will be in c:\Program Files if you installed 64 bit 
version, which you should have done. Otherwise, it will be in C:\Program 
Files(x86). Your "idle" program will be in your "start menu" which came 
back in Winduhs 10. You would probably never have guessed, but I'm not 
particularly fond of Winduhs.



-- 
Mladen Gogala
Database Consultant
http://mgogala.byethost5.com

From Bischoop at vimart.net  Mon Jan 18 22:45:45 2021
From: Bischoop at vimart.net (Bischoop)
Date: Tue, 19 Jan 2021 03:45:45 -0000 (UTC)
Subject: count consecutive elements
References: <slrnrvup10.dse.Bischoop@vimart.net>
 <slrnrvv9p8.ec1.Bischoop@vimart.net>
 <debugging-20210114034246@ram.dialup.fu-berlin.de>
Message-ID: <slrns0clf9.a8u.Bischoop@vimart.net>

On 2021-01-14, Stefan Ram <ram at zedat.fu-berlin.de> wrote:
>
>   If you want to know why, maybe you should insert print
>   statements to see the values of critical variables and
>   expression, especially in loops. 
>
>   Then compare the printed values with your expectations.
>
>   Also, decompose into meaningful functions and test each
>   function separately.
>
>

I sat to it again and solved it.

import timeit

run1 = '''

s = 'aabskaaaabadcccc'


lil = tuple(set(s)) # list of characters in s

li=[0,0,0,0,0,0]  # list for counted repeats


for i in lil:
    c = 0
    h= lil.index(i)
    for letter in s:
        if letter == i:
            c += 1
            if c > li[lil.index(letter)]:
                li[lil.index(letter)] = c
        else:
            c=0
            continue

m = max(li)

for index, j in enumerate(li):
    if li[index] == m:
        print(f'{lil[index]} appears {m} consecutive times')


'''
print(timeit.timeit(stmt=run1, number=1))



output:
c appears 4 consecutive times
a appears 4 consecutive times
0.00013008200039621443



From greg.ewing at canterbury.ac.nz  Tue Jan 19 00:01:12 2021
From: greg.ewing at canterbury.ac.nz (Greg Ewing)
Date: Tue, 19 Jan 2021 18:01:12 +1300
Subject: Exploring terminfo
In-Reply-To: <mailman.875.1611021254.7193.python-list@python.org>
References: <rtpqh8$16kg$1@ciao.gmane.io> <rts4ov$10b4$1@ciao.gmane.io>
 <rtsjht$119t$1@ciao.gmane.io> <rtsnb4$i53$1@ciao.gmane.io>
 <2c14f8fc-55d6-4d3f-bd46-9ef4e225acf7@www.fastmail.com>
 <ru5cvb$5lv$1@ciao.gmane.io>
 <mailman.875.1611021254.7193.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <4743b864-24c6-ab70-f5dc-e81c4bc8e112@canterbury.ac.nz>

On 19/01/21 2:34 pm, Alan Gauld wrote:
> To be fair that's a limitation of the C curses library. putp() is a
> wrapper around tputs() even there, and you can't change what it does.
> The gap in the curses module is that it doesn't offer the tputs()
> option as an alternative.

Seems to me it would be useful to have something that returns
what tputs() would have output, as a string, so you can send it
where you want.

-- 
Greg

From greg.ewing at canterbury.ac.nz  Tue Jan 19 00:01:12 2021
From: greg.ewing at canterbury.ac.nz (Greg Ewing)
Date: Tue, 19 Jan 2021 18:01:12 +1300
Subject: Exploring terminfo
In-Reply-To: <mailman.875.1611021254.7193.python-list@python.org>
References: <rtpqh8$16kg$1@ciao.gmane.io> <rts4ov$10b4$1@ciao.gmane.io>
 <rtsjht$119t$1@ciao.gmane.io> <rtsnb4$i53$1@ciao.gmane.io>
 <2c14f8fc-55d6-4d3f-bd46-9ef4e225acf7@www.fastmail.com>
 <ru5cvb$5lv$1@ciao.gmane.io>
 <mailman.875.1611021254.7193.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <4743b864-24c6-ab70-f5dc-e81c4bc8e112@canterbury.ac.nz>

On 19/01/21 2:34 pm, Alan Gauld wrote:
> To be fair that's a limitation of the C curses library. putp() is a
> wrapper around tputs() even there, and you can't change what it does.
> The gap in the curses module is that it doesn't offer the tputs()
> option as an alternative.

Seems to me it would be useful to have something that returns
what tputs() would have output, as a string, so you can send it
where you want.

-- 
Greg

From __peter__ at web.de  Tue Jan 19 03:51:16 2021
From: __peter__ at web.de (Peter Otten)
Date: Tue, 19 Jan 2021 09:51:16 +0100
Subject: count consecutive elements
In-Reply-To: <slrns0clf9.a8u.Bischoop@vimart.net>
References: <slrnrvup10.dse.Bischoop@vimart.net>
 <slrnrvv9p8.ec1.Bischoop@vimart.net>
 <debugging-20210114034246@ram.dialup.fu-berlin.de>
 <slrns0clf9.a8u.Bischoop@vimart.net>
Message-ID: <c28efc42-bcde-3975-e97d-9f88aa794864@web.de>

On 19/01/2021 04:45, Bischoop wrote:

> I sat to it again and solved it.

Congratulations!

 > lil = tuple(set(s)) # list of characters in s
 >
 > li=[0,0,0,0,0,0]  # list for counted repeats

I see a minor problem here. What happens if s contains more than len(li)
characters?

> import timeit

Since you seem interested in performance: imagine that the input is a
very long string. Let's call the length N.

How often do you iterate over its characters?
How often does Tim's solution?

From __peter__ at web.de  Tue Jan 19 03:51:16 2021
From: __peter__ at web.de (Peter Otten)
Date: Tue, 19 Jan 2021 09:51:16 +0100
Subject: count consecutive elements
In-Reply-To: <slrns0clf9.a8u.Bischoop@vimart.net>
References: <slrnrvup10.dse.Bischoop@vimart.net>
 <slrnrvv9p8.ec1.Bischoop@vimart.net>
 <debugging-20210114034246@ram.dialup.fu-berlin.de>
 <slrns0clf9.a8u.Bischoop@vimart.net>
Message-ID: <c28efc42-bcde-3975-e97d-9f88aa794864@web.de>

On 19/01/2021 04:45, Bischoop wrote:

> I sat to it again and solved it.

Congratulations!

 > lil = tuple(set(s)) # list of characters in s
 >
 > li=[0,0,0,0,0,0]  # list for counted repeats

I see a minor problem here. What happens if s contains more than len(li) 
characters?

> import timeit

Since you seem interested in performance: imagine that the input is a 
very long string. Let's call the length N.

How often do you iterate over its characters?
How often does Tim's solution?


From Bischoop at vimart.net  Tue Jan 19 04:42:09 2021
From: Bischoop at vimart.net (Bischoop)
Date: Tue, 19 Jan 2021 09:42:09 -0000 (UTC)
Subject: count consecutive elements
References: <slrnrvup10.dse.Bischoop@vimart.net>
 <slrnrvv9p8.ec1.Bischoop@vimart.net>
 <debugging-20210114034246@ram.dialup.fu-berlin.de>
 <slrns0clf9.a8u.Bischoop@vimart.net>
 <c28efc42-bcde-3975-e97d-9f88aa794864@web.de>
 <mailman.878.1611046289.7193.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <slrns0dabh.2ja.Bischoop@vimart.net>

On 2021-01-19, Peter Otten <__peter__ at web.de> wrote:
> On 19/01/2021 04:45, Bischoop wrote:
>
>> I sat to it again and solved it.
>
> Congratulations!
>
> > lil = tuple(set(s)) # list of characters in s
> >
> > li=[0,0,0,0,0,0]  # list for counted repeats
>
> I see a minor problem here. What happens if s contains more than len(li) 
> characters?
>

Thanks, I've created it when came to idea how to solve the problem and
then forgot that part, will have to update it with two additional line
of code.

>> import timeit
>
> Since you seem interested in performance: imagine that the input is a 
> very long string. Let's call the length N.
>
> How often do you iterate over its characters?
>

Does it take time :-) I actually left it because seen guy in thread
were comparing their time results, I'm pretty much aware that mine
solution is time consuming and there are better ways to do it but
I wanted to finish what I started without any additional libraries
like itertools etc in the way that my knowledge allows. The idea with
for this tuple just came up in a first seconds when I look at that
and was not bothering about time or performance especially that later
on as you seen I had different problem to solve and which took me quite
a time and when I look at it today I think how couldn't I came with it
earlier and let myself stuck on it.

I'm happy that despite I've asked here I've finish it practically wthout
additional help and yeah ( Thanks to Stefan who just pointed me to look
at it from different prespective instead pointing what was wrong),
I'll iterate here n = x [x for x in lil], with big string it can make 
difference. Now, when you asked me that question I came indeed for better
idea to do this. One loop during which I can append character if not in lil.

> How often does Tim's solution?

oh here Im stuck and dont understand what you mean?

--
Thanks

From __peter__ at web.de  Tue Jan 19 05:50:31 2021
From: __peter__ at web.de (Peter Otten)
Date: Tue, 19 Jan 2021 11:50:31 +0100
Subject: count consecutive elements
In-Reply-To: <slrns0dabh.2ja.Bischoop@vimart.net>
References: <slrnrvup10.dse.Bischoop@vimart.net>
 <slrnrvv9p8.ec1.Bischoop@vimart.net>
 <debugging-20210114034246@ram.dialup.fu-berlin.de>
 <slrns0clf9.a8u.Bischoop@vimart.net>
 <c28efc42-bcde-3975-e97d-9f88aa794864@web.de>
 <mailman.878.1611046289.7193.python-list@python.org>
 <slrns0dabh.2ja.Bischoop@vimart.net>
Message-ID: <44a0aa48-0ddc-7679-8d0b-ff08132a205f@web.de>

On 19/01/2021 10:42, Bischoop wrote:
> On 2021-01-19, Peter Otten <__peter__ at web.de> wrote:
>> On 19/01/2021 04:45, Bischoop wrote:
>>
>>> I sat to it again and solved it.
>>
>> Congratulations!
>>
>>> lil = tuple(set(s)) # list of characters in s
>>>
>>> li=[0,0,0,0,0,0]  # list for counted repeats
>>
>> I see a minor problem here. What happens if s contains more than len(li)
>> characters?
>>
>
> Thanks, I've created it when came to idea how to solve the problem and
> then forgot that part, will have to update it with two additional line
> of code.
>
>>> import timeit
>>
>> Since you seem interested in performance: imagine that the input is a
>> very long string. Let's call the length N.
>>
>> How often do you iterate over its characters?
>>
>
> Does it take time :-) I actually left it because seen guy in thread
> were comparing their time results, I'm pretty much aware that mine
> solution is time consuming and there are better ways to do it but
> I wanted to finish what I started without any additional libraries
> like itertools etc in the way that my knowledge allows. The idea with
> for this tuple just came up in a first seconds when I look at that
> and was not bothering about time or performance especially that later
> on as you seen I had different problem to solve and which took me quite
> a time and when I look at it today I think how couldn't I came with it
> earlier and let myself stuck on it.
>
> I'm happy that despite I've asked here I've finish it practically wthout
> additional help and yeah ( Thanks to Stefan who just pointed me to look
> at it from different prespective instead pointing what was wrong),
> I'll iterate here n = x [x for x in lil], with big string it can make
> difference. Now, when you asked me that question I came indeed for better
> idea to do this. One loop during which I can append character if not in lil.
>
>> How often does Tim's solution?
>
> oh here Im stuck and dont understand what you mean?

[Tim Chase]

>   def consecutive_counter(seq):
>       # I'm not sure if there's something
>       # like this already in itertools
>       cur = nada = object()
>       count = 0
>       for x in seq:
>           if x == cur:
>               count += 1
>           else:
>               if cur is not nada:
>                   yield cur, count
>               cur = x
>               count = 1
>       if cur is not nada:
>           yield cur, count
>
>   def longest(seq):
>       results = []
>       biggest = 0
>       for item, count in seq:
>           if count > biggest:
>               results = [item]
>               biggest = count
>           elif count == biggest:
>               results.append(item)
>       return results, biggest


Tim's code iterates over the string once whereas you iterate multiple
times. While this is mainly a question of elegance performance is
affected when you have *nested* loops:

> for i in lil:
>     c = 0
>     h= lil.index(i)
>     for letter in s:

If you are unlucky and run into a string with 1000 different characters
the code in your inner loop will execute 1000*1000 times while Tim's
will run 1000 times. This is called O(N*N) and O(N).

Not all loops are obvious,

> lil.index(letter)

contains another loop, and you now have O(N*N*N) behavior.

This is the worst case, usually the alphabet (li1) will be smaller, but
avoiding nested loops when possible is still a good habit to get into.


From __peter__ at web.de  Tue Jan 19 05:50:31 2021
From: __peter__ at web.de (Peter Otten)
Date: Tue, 19 Jan 2021 11:50:31 +0100
Subject: count consecutive elements
In-Reply-To: <slrns0dabh.2ja.Bischoop@vimart.net>
References: <slrnrvup10.dse.Bischoop@vimart.net>
 <slrnrvv9p8.ec1.Bischoop@vimart.net>
 <debugging-20210114034246@ram.dialup.fu-berlin.de>
 <slrns0clf9.a8u.Bischoop@vimart.net>
 <c28efc42-bcde-3975-e97d-9f88aa794864@web.de>
 <mailman.878.1611046289.7193.python-list@python.org>
 <slrns0dabh.2ja.Bischoop@vimart.net>
Message-ID: <44a0aa48-0ddc-7679-8d0b-ff08132a205f@web.de>

On 19/01/2021 10:42, Bischoop wrote:
> On 2021-01-19, Peter Otten <__peter__ at web.de> wrote:
>> On 19/01/2021 04:45, Bischoop wrote:
>>
>>> I sat to it again and solved it.
>>
>> Congratulations!
>>
>>> lil = tuple(set(s)) # list of characters in s
>>>
>>> li=[0,0,0,0,0,0]  # list for counted repeats
>>
>> I see a minor problem here. What happens if s contains more than len(li)
>> characters?
>>
> 
> Thanks, I've created it when came to idea how to solve the problem and
> then forgot that part, will have to update it with two additional line
> of code.
> 
>>> import timeit
>>
>> Since you seem interested in performance: imagine that the input is a
>> very long string. Let's call the length N.
>>
>> How often do you iterate over its characters?
>>
> 
> Does it take time :-) I actually left it because seen guy in thread
> were comparing their time results, I'm pretty much aware that mine
> solution is time consuming and there are better ways to do it but
> I wanted to finish what I started without any additional libraries
> like itertools etc in the way that my knowledge allows. The idea with
> for this tuple just came up in a first seconds when I look at that
> and was not bothering about time or performance especially that later
> on as you seen I had different problem to solve and which took me quite
> a time and when I look at it today I think how couldn't I came with it
> earlier and let myself stuck on it.
> 
> I'm happy that despite I've asked here I've finish it practically wthout
> additional help and yeah ( Thanks to Stefan who just pointed me to look
> at it from different prespective instead pointing what was wrong),
> I'll iterate here n = x [x for x in lil], with big string it can make
> difference. Now, when you asked me that question I came indeed for better
> idea to do this. One loop during which I can append character if not in lil.
> 
>> How often does Tim's solution?
> 
> oh here Im stuck and dont understand what you mean?

[Tim Chase]

>   def consecutive_counter(seq):
>       # I'm not sure if there's something
>       # like this already in itertools
>       cur = nada = object()
>       count = 0
>       for x in seq:
>           if x == cur:
>               count += 1
>           else:
>               if cur is not nada:
>                   yield cur, count
>               cur = x
>               count = 1
>       if cur is not nada:
>           yield cur, count
> 
>   def longest(seq):
>       results = []
>       biggest = 0
>       for item, count in seq:
>           if count > biggest:
>               results = [item]
>               biggest = count
>           elif count == biggest:
>               results.append(item)
>       return results, biggest


Tim's code iterates over the string once whereas you iterate multiple 
times. While this is mainly a question of elegance performance is 
affected when you have *nested* loops:

> for i in lil:
>     c = 0
>     h= lil.index(i)
>     for letter in s:

If you are unlucky and run into a string with 1000 different characters 
the code in your inner loop will execute 1000*1000 times while Tim's 
will run 1000 times. This is called O(N*N) and O(N).

Not all loops are obvious,

> lil.index(letter)

contains another loop, and you now have O(N*N*N) behavior.

This is the worst case, usually the alphabet (li1) will be smaller, but 
avoiding nested loops when possible is still a good habit to get into.



From python at mrabarnett.plus.com  Tue Jan 19 11:05:27 2021
From: python at mrabarnett.plus.com (MRAB)
Date: Tue, 19 Jan 2021 16:05:27 +0000
Subject: Python not Running
In-Reply-To: <ru5jhq$1ksk$1@gioia.aioe.org>
References: <CAL-Si0qLchjCzqj=ZF=Fnhbhreim49vwpDwFWTnbmyAz7tJdYg@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.850.1610840293.7193.python-list@python.org>
 <ru5jhq$1ksk$1@gioia.aioe.org>
Message-ID: <e9f66c3b-836a-dc41-91b6-c9f08a759d15@mrabarnett.plus.com>

On 2021-01-19 03:26, Mladen Gogala via Python-list wrote:
[snip]

> Since you're most probably using Winduhs, use regedit and modify your PATH
> variable. Your python will be in c:\Program Files if you installed 64 bit
> version, which you should have done. Otherwise, it will be in C:\Program
> Files(x86). Your "idle" program will be in your "start menu" which came
> back in Winduhs 10. You would probably never have guessed, but I'm not
> particularly fond of Winduhs.
> 
[snip]

I wouldn't use regedit to edit the PATH variable. It's an environment 
variable, so I'd use the System Properties dialog (the Advanced tab).

From grant.b.edwards at gmail.com  Tue Jan 19 10:16:40 2021
From: grant.b.edwards at gmail.com (Grant Edwards)
Date: Tue, 19 Jan 2021 15:16:40 -0000 (UTC)
Subject: Exploring terminfo
References: <rtpqh8$16kg$1@ciao.gmane.io> <rts4ov$10b4$1@ciao.gmane.io>
 <rtsjht$119t$1@ciao.gmane.io> <rtsnb4$i53$1@ciao.gmane.io>
 <2c14f8fc-55d6-4d3f-bd46-9ef4e225acf7@www.fastmail.com>
 <ru5cvb$5lv$1@ciao.gmane.io>
 <mailman.875.1611021254.7193.python-list@python.org>
 <4743b864-24c6-ab70-f5dc-e81c4bc8e112@canterbury.ac.nz>
Message-ID: <ru6t4o$ols$4@ciao.gmane.io>

On 2021-01-19, Greg Ewing <greg.ewing at canterbury.ac.nz> wrote:
> On 19/01/21 2:34 pm, Alan Gauld wrote:
>> To be fair that's a limitation of the C curses library. putp() is a
>> wrapper around tputs() even there, and you can't change what it does.
>> The gap in the curses module is that it doesn't offer the tputs()
>> option as an alternative.
>
> Seems to me it would be useful to have something that returns
> what tputs() would have output, as a string, so you can send it
> where you want.

I tried to do that using ctypes by passing tputs() a Python "putc"
callback, but I couldn't get it to work (the callback never got
called).

--
Grant




From grant.b.edwards at gmail.com  Tue Jan 19 10:15:31 2021
From: grant.b.edwards at gmail.com (Grant Edwards)
Date: Tue, 19 Jan 2021 15:15:31 -0000 (UTC)
Subject: Exploring terminfo
References: <rtpqh8$16kg$1@ciao.gmane.io> <rts4ov$10b4$1@ciao.gmane.io>
 <rtsjht$119t$1@ciao.gmane.io> <rtsnb4$i53$1@ciao.gmane.io>
 <2c14f8fc-55d6-4d3f-bd46-9ef4e225acf7@www.fastmail.com>
 <ru5cvb$5lv$1@ciao.gmane.io>
Message-ID: <ru6t2j$ols$3@ciao.gmane.io>

On 2021-01-19, Alan Gauld via Python-list <python-list at python.org> wrote:
> On 18/01/2021 22:14, Random832 wrote:
>> On Fri, Jan 15, 2021, at 13:36, Alan Gauld via Python-list wrote:
>>> That could make a big difference, the putp() function specifically
>>> states that it writes to stdout.
>> 
>> I think there is a reasonable argument that this is a deficiency of
>> the curses module.
>> 
>> I think that the curses module should ..
>> B) expose a version of putp that uses pthon's stdout[.buffer].write
>> rather than C's putchar.
>
> To be fair that's a limitation of the C curses library. putp() is a
> wrapper around tputs() even there, and you can't change what it does.
> The gap in the curses module is that it doesn't offer the tputs()
> option as an alternative.

If the curses module provided a tputs binding, then the user could
write a useful putp(), or better yet a function that just does the
padding and returns a new bytestring.

> I've been using curses (C and python) for nearly 30 years and
> this is the first time I've ever used the tiXXX functions,  and it
> was mainly just out of curiosity rather than real need.

Same here.

--
Grant





From shurph at gmail.com  Tue Jan 19 10:48:47 2021
From: shurph at gmail.com (Mikalai Saskavets)
Date: Tue, 19 Jan 2021 18:48:47 +0300
Subject: PyConBY (Belarus) 2021 Online. Call for Proposals
In-Reply-To: <CALyqrQE_kDstPrwgbocAhiJAB87MrCkJVQ2_hZwkAiUzjh4yLQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CALyqrQE_kDstPrwgbocAhiJAB87MrCkJVQ2_hZwkAiUzjh4yLQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CALyqrQG_Msx=DxVPjo0mm73WYqubEn78wQapZRyuoCERVenJLA@mail.gmail.com>

Hi All!

I am on a program committee of the PyCon Belarus team.

Our team is happy to announce that PyCon Belarus 2021 https://by.pycon.org/
will be held on March 13. We made it online and free for everyone. 500+
Python developers of all levels will join us remotely.

Call for Proposals is now open and we are accepting submissions till
February 12. Please find all the details about the CFP here:
https://forms.gle/fNsJbwU53kjGhsrh8
<https://forms.gle/fNsJbwU53kjGhsrh8>

Warmest regards,
    Mikalai Saskavets
    PyCon Belarus Program Committee Co-Chair
    Engineering Manager at iTechArt

From * at eli.users.panix.com  Tue Jan 19 16:54:47 2021
From: * at eli.users.panix.com (Eli the Bearded)
Date: Tue, 19 Jan 2021 21:54:47 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: Exploring terminfo
References: <rtpqh8$16kg$1@ciao.gmane.io> <ru1hud$qf5$1@ciao.gmane.io>
 <mailman.860.1610895019.7193.python-list@python.org>
 <i6k2orF53k5U1@mid.individual.net>
Message-ID: <eli$2101191600@qaz.wtf>

In comp.lang.python, Greg Ewing  <greg.ewing at canterbury.ac.nz> wrote:
> On 18/01/21 3:34 am, Alan Gauld wrote:
>> The problem is terminfo is not really part of curses.
>> Curses is built on top of terminfo.
> As far as I can tell from the man pages, terminfo itself
> is just a file format. The only programmatic interfaces I
> can find for it *are* part of curses:

Putting my Unix hat on, curses is a "friendly" library around creating
text-windowed applications. Programs like mutt use curses rather than
raw terminal operations, programs like vi use raw terminal operations.
Either curses or raw terminal operations will (should) consult a
terminal capabilities database to figure out what can be done and how to
do it. The two competing database formats for that are termcap and
terminfo, where terminfo is the newer, better one.

Termcap used a single large text file for all terminals types.
Terminfo uses a directory tree full of small files, one per type.

I'm pretty sure both include the ability to say something along the
lines of "start with this one terminal, and then change these bits".
So that starts to get complicated without a library. Or maybe I'm wrong,
and vi uses curses. I'm not really sure how vi reads the term info files.

Okay, checking the source to the only vi I have lying around[*], it uses
a few curses calls, apparently only these:

    int tgetent(char *bp, const char *name);
    int tgetflag(char *id);
    int tgetnum(char *id);
    char *tgetstr(char *id, char **area);
    char *tgoto(const char *cap, int col, int row);
    int tputs(const char *str, int affcnt, int (*putc)(int));

My local manpage calles this set the "direct curses interface to the
terminfo capability database" whereas things I think of as "curses"
programs use calls like:

    WINDOW *initscr(void);
    int cbreak(void);
    int start_color(void);
    int noecho(void);
    int move(int y, int x);
    int attr_set(attr_t attrs, short pair, void *opts);
    int getch(void);
    int addch(const chtype ch);
    int printw(const char *fmt, ...);

The vi method relies on the programmer knowing what attributes are
wanted and how to use them, and how to use alternatives when the
first choices aren't provided. The curses method relies on the programmer
knowing which of a hundred different library functions to use for any
given output. :^)

[*] It's ex-1.1, an "heirloom" source package that has possibly been
    brushed up just enough to compile on a modern system. ex-1.1 is by
    most reckoning, the first vi. It won't start in vi mode though, you
    need to run ex, then begin the visual mode. It is recongizable as vi
    to me, but a somewhat different experience.

Elijah
------
has modified C curses programs, but not written one from scratch

From grant.b.edwards at gmail.com  Tue Jan 19 17:42:26 2021
From: grant.b.edwards at gmail.com (Grant Edwards)
Date: Tue, 19 Jan 2021 22:42:26 -0000 (UTC)
Subject: Exploring terminfo
References: <rtpqh8$16kg$1@ciao.gmane.io> <ru1hud$qf5$1@ciao.gmane.io>
 <mailman.860.1610895019.7193.python-list@python.org>
 <i6k2orF53k5U1@mid.individual.net> <eli$2101191600@qaz.wtf>
Message-ID: <ru7n8i$ee7$1@ciao.gmane.io>

On 2021-01-19, Eli the Bearded <*@eli.users.panix.com> wrote:

> Putting my Unix hat on, curses is a "friendly" library around creating
> text-windowed applications. Programs like mutt use curses rather than
> raw terminal operations, programs like vi use raw terminal operations.
> Either curses or raw terminal operations will (should) consult a
> terminal capabilities database to figure out what can be done and how to
> do it. The two competing database formats for that are termcap and
> terminfo, where terminfo is the newer, better one.

Back in the day, weren't the termcap/terminfo libraries maintained and
installed seperately from curses?  I would have sworn that only a few
years ago terminfo and ncurses libraries were seperate -- though
recently both were provided by ncurses, IIRC.

[...]

> Okay, checking the source to the only vi I have lying around[*], it uses
> a few curses calls, apparently only these:
>
>     int tgetent(char *bp, const char *name);
>     int tgetflag(char *id);
>     int tgetnum(char *id);
>     char *tgetstr(char *id, char **area);
>     char *tgoto(const char *cap, int col, int row);
>     int tputs(const char *str, int affcnt, int (*putc)(int));

In my mind, those are curses library calls, they're termcap/terminfo
library calls. [I can't recall whether terminfo and termcap APIs were
compatible or not.]

> My local manpage calles this set the "direct curses interface to the
> terminfo capability database" whereas things I think of as "curses"
> programs use calls like:
>
>     WINDOW *initscr(void);
>     int cbreak(void);
>     int start_color(void);
>     int noecho(void);
>     int move(int y, int x);
>     int attr_set(attr_t attrs, short pair, void *opts);
>     int getch(void);
>     int addch(const chtype ch);
>     int printw(const char *fmt, ...);

Exactly. _Those_ are curses library calls.

--
Grant



From grant.b.edwards at gmail.com  Tue Jan 19 18:24:22 2021
From: grant.b.edwards at gmail.com (Grant Edwards)
Date: Tue, 19 Jan 2021 23:24:22 -0000 (UTC)
Subject: Exploring terminfo
References: <rtpqh8$16kg$1@ciao.gmane.io> <ru1hud$qf5$1@ciao.gmane.io>
 <mailman.860.1610895019.7193.python-list@python.org>
 <i6k2orF53k5U1@mid.individual.net> <eli$2101191600@qaz.wtf>
 <ru7n8i$ee7$1@ciao.gmane.io>
Message-ID: <ru7pn6$ulc$1@ciao.gmane.io>

On 2021-01-19, Grant Edwards <grant.b.edwards at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>     int tgetent(char *bp, const char *name);
>>     int tgetflag(char *id);
>>     int tgetnum(char *id);
>>     char *tgetstr(char *id, char **area);
>>     char *tgoto(const char *cap, int col, int row);
>>     int tputs(const char *str, int affcnt, int (*putc)(int));
>
> In my mind, those are curses library calls, they're termcap/terminfo
                  aren't curses 

Sorry about that...



From mrd at redhat.com  Tue Jan 19 20:07:54 2021
From: mrd at redhat.com (Matt Davis)
Date: Tue, 19 Jan 2021 17:07:54 -0800
Subject: [ANN] PyYAML-5.4 Released
Message-ID: <CAJD0Ssj63AgMFSTRNJ-X-wnkDEUwxUidCezTDhjQWTzVTwYLAg@mail.gmail.com>

=====================
Announcing PyYAML-5.4
=====================

A new release of PyYAML is now available:
https://github.com/yaml/pyyaml/releases/tag/5.4

This release contains a security fix for CVE-2020-14343. It removes the
python/module, python/object, and python/object/new tags from the
FullLoader. YAML that uses these tags must be loaded by UnsafeLoader, or a
custom loader that has explicitly enabled them.

This release also adds Python wheels for manylinux1 (x86_64) and MacOS
(x86_64) with the libyaml extension included (built on libyaml 0.2.5).

PyYAML 5.4 will be the last release to support Python 2.7 (except for
possible critical bug fix releases).


Changes
=======

* https://github.com/yaml/pyyaml/pull/407 -- build modernization, remove
distutils, fix metadata, build wheels, CI to GHA
* https://github.com/yaml/pyyaml/pull/472 -- fix for CVE-2020-14343, moves
arbitrary python tags to UnsafeLoader
* https://github.com/yaml/pyyaml/pull/441 -- fix memory leak in implicit
resolver setup
* https://github.com/yaml/pyyaml/pull/392 -- fix py2 copy support for
timezone objects
* https://github.com/yaml/pyyaml/pull/378 -- fix compatibility with Jython


Resources
=========

PyYAML IRC Channel: #pyyaml on irc.freenode.net
PyYAML homepage: https://github.com/yaml/pyyaml
PyYAML documentation: http://pyyaml.org/wiki/PyYAMLDocumentation
Source and binary installers: https://pypi.org/project/PyYAML/
GitHub repository: https://github.com/yaml/pyyaml/
Bug tracking: https://github.com/yaml/pyyaml/issues

YAML homepage: http://yaml.org/
YAML-core mailing list:
http://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/yaml-core


About PyYAML
============

YAML is a data serialization format designed for human readability and
interaction with scripting languages. PyYAML is a YAML parser and emitter
for Python.

PyYAML features a complete YAML 1.1 parser, Unicode support, pickle
support, capable extension API, and sensible error messages. PyYAML
supports standard YAML tags and provides Python-specific tags that allow to
represent an arbitrary Python object.

PyYAML is applicable for a broad range of tasks from complex configuration
files to object serialization and persistence.


Example
=======

```
>>> import yaml

>>> yaml.full_load("""
... name: PyYAML
... description: YAML parser and emitter for Python
... homepage: https://github.com/yaml/pyyaml
... keywords: [YAML, serialization, configuration, persistence, pickle]
... """)
{'keywords': ['YAML', 'serialization', 'configuration', 'persistence',
'pickle'], 'homepage': 'https://github.com/yaml/pyyaml', 'description':
'YAML parser and emitter for Python', 'name': 'PyYAML'}

>>> print(yaml.dump(_))
name: PyYAML
homepage: https://github.com/yaml/pyyaml
description: YAML parser and emitter for Python
keywords: [YAML, serialization, configuration, persistence, pickle]
```

Maintainers
===========

The following people are currently responsible for maintaining PyYAML:

* Ingy d?t Net
* Matt Davis

and many thanks to all who have contributed!
See: https://github.com/yaml/pyyaml/pulls


Copyright
=========

Copyright (c) 2017-2021 Ingy d?t Net <ingy at ingy.net>
Copyright (c) 2006-2016 Kirill Simonov <xi at resolvent.net>

The PyYAML module was written by Kirill Simonov <xi at resolvent.net>.
It is currently maintained by the YAML and Python communities.

PyYAML is released under the MIT license.
See the file LICENSE for more details.

From samuelmarks at gmail.com  Tue Jan 19 22:05:15 2021
From: samuelmarks at gmail.com (Samuel Marks)
Date: Wed, 20 Jan 2021 14:05:15 +1100
Subject: Force Python ast to emit lines no longer than $length
Message-ID: <CAMfPbcbZfG9y3Vc86bK2d1TswN+r0vByQ4-QBvNFhwb4zZcxGA@mail.gmail.com>

I've written a library that works at the ast level. Sometimes the
generated output goes over the linter line length limit.

"foo_bar_can_haz_foo_bar_can_haz_foo_bar_can_haz_foo_bar_can_haz_foo_bar_can_haz_foo_bar_can_haz"

How do I generate this kind of code instead?

"foo_bar_can_haz_foo_bar_can_haz_foo_bar_can_haz_"
"foo_bar_can_haz_foo_bar_can_haz_foo_bar_can_haz"

(also happy with the \ and parenthesised variants) [cross-posted:
stackoverflow.com/q/65800797]

The only thing I can think of doing?retaining support for 3.6, 3.7,
3.8, 3.9, and 3.10a4?is to contribute to both astor and the builtin
ast.unparse?

From mgogala at yahoo.com  Wed Jan 20 00:14:04 2021
From: mgogala at yahoo.com (Mladen Gogala)
Date: Wed, 20 Jan 2021 05:14:04 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: open sentinel-2image python
References: <59b289d3-31af-4da4-a52c-d72fcd87ee3en@googlegroups.com>
 <YARCVFSZhb8vhFFo@hermes.hilbert.loc>
 <2b5b4ba0-d16e-f85c-3b8b-0c3981774a54@mrabarnett.plus.com>
 <mailman.863.1610906497.7193.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <ru8e6s$umv$1@gioia.aioe.org>

On Sun, 17 Jan 2021 18:01:26 +0000, MRAB wrote:

> On 2021-01-17 13:57, Karsten Hilbert wrote:
>> Am Sun, Jan 17, 2021 at 02:20:24AM -0800 schrieb omid mohammadi:
>> 
>>> When I open the sentinel-2 image in Python, I get the following error:
>>>
>>> MemoryError: Unable to allocate 115. MiB for an array with shape
>>> (5490, 5490) and data type float32
>>>
>>> How can I fix it?
>> 
>> You can install more RAM.
>> 
> Or maybe the OP is running 32-bit Python but the code needs >2GB. If
> that's the case then using 64-bit Python might fix it, assuming that
> it's a 64-bit machine.

Or there may be an OS limitation on the size of the address space. I 
would check the OS log first, then do "ulimit -a". If there are sar or
vmstat on the system, I would definitely use them.
Running out of memory is an OS error and should be checked on the OS 
level.



-- 
Mladen Gogala
Database Consultant
http://mgogala.byethost5.com

From mgogala at yahoo.com  Wed Jan 20 00:40:16 2021
From: mgogala at yahoo.com (Mladen Gogala)
Date: Wed, 20 Jan 2021 05:40:16 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: Issues with running python in Command prompt
References: <CADOd39fcqOego2N9ooLZeQ4Re4scDBdDBEmW588RC+YrTYcZQw@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.844.1610821086.7193.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <ru8fo0$umv$2@gioia.aioe.org>

On Sat, 16 Jan 2021 19:00:06 +0330, mohsen shooshtari wrote:

> hello,
> Thanks in advance for your consideration. I install python3.8 and then
> install Pycharm but when I call python in Command prompt, followed by (
> 'python'
> is not recognized as an internal or external command, operable program
> or batch file.
> 
> what should I do to fix this problem?

Make sure that OS recognizes it as a command. That usually means putting 
the directory where your Python resides into the path. I generally advise
using Cygwin and installing the Cygwin version of Python. Your OS will 
look like a POSIX compatible system, and you will be able to use Unix/
Linux tools like bash, less. vi, awk, grep and alike. You will also be 
able to use "/" as a directory separator which is really helpful when it 
comes to regular expressions.
Another option is to install Ubuntu on top of your Windows 10. I am no 
fan of Ubuntu but it's still much better than Windows. All scripting 
languages (PHP, Perl, Python, Go and JavaScript to mention only the most 
popular ones) are all written with Linux/Unix in mind. There are Windows 
ports but using the Linux or Cygwin version is typically much easier and 
more natural.

-- 
Mladen Gogala
Database Consultant
https://dbwhisperer.wordpress.com

From nulla.epistola at web.de  Wed Jan 20 10:21:56 2021
From: nulla.epistola at web.de (Sibylle Koczian)
Date: Wed, 20 Jan 2021 16:21:56 +0100
Subject: Python not Running
In-Reply-To: <9m2e0ghjo0cijmstt5gbbrj8crvjbmafls@4ax.com>
References: <CAL-Si0qLchjCzqj=ZF=Fnhbhreim49vwpDwFWTnbmyAz7tJdYg@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.850.1610840293.7193.python-list@python.org>
 <ru5jhq$1ksk$1@gioia.aioe.org> <9m2e0ghjo0cijmstt5gbbrj8crvjbmafls@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <b742606b-4d84-7024-26a2-d50e5cc27599@web.de>

Am 19.01.2021 um 17:48 schrieb Dennis Lee Bieber:
> On Tue, 19 Jan 2021 03:26:50 +0000 (UTC), Mladen Gogala via Python-list
> <python-list at python.org> declaimed the following:
> 
>> Since you're most probably using Winduhs, use regedit and modify your PATH
> 
> 	You don't need to use regedit to modify environment variables.
> 
> 	Right click "This PC" (Win10), Properties, Advance System Settings
> (respond to UAC prompt), [Environment Variables]
> 
> 	This presents a window with "user" (the admin account being used after
> the UAC authorization) and "system" which are the environment variables
> that apply to all users.
> 
> 	To change regular user environment variables, open old-style control
> panel, drill down in "User Accounts" until your get to your account, and
> there will be an option on the left for editing environment variables.
> 
> 
It's not necessary to have Python in the path - it may perhaps be a 
little more comfortable, but not much. The file extensions .py and .pyw 
can be associated with python and pythonw, there is the Python Launcher, 
and for things like pip you can always change into your Python 
directory. But pip works just as well with the Launcher.



From nulla.epistola at web.de  Wed Jan 20 10:21:56 2021
From: nulla.epistola at web.de (Sibylle Koczian)
Date: Wed, 20 Jan 2021 16:21:56 +0100
Subject: Python not Running
In-Reply-To: <9m2e0ghjo0cijmstt5gbbrj8crvjbmafls@4ax.com>
References: <CAL-Si0qLchjCzqj=ZF=Fnhbhreim49vwpDwFWTnbmyAz7tJdYg@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.850.1610840293.7193.python-list@python.org>
 <ru5jhq$1ksk$1@gioia.aioe.org> <9m2e0ghjo0cijmstt5gbbrj8crvjbmafls@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <b742606b-4d84-7024-26a2-d50e5cc27599@web.de>

Am 19.01.2021 um 17:48 schrieb Dennis Lee Bieber:
> On Tue, 19 Jan 2021 03:26:50 +0000 (UTC), Mladen Gogala via Python-list
> <python-list at python.org> declaimed the following:
> 
>> Since you're most probably using Winduhs, use regedit and modify your PATH
> 
> 	You don't need to use regedit to modify environment variables.
> 
> 	Right click "This PC" (Win10), Properties, Advance System Settings
> (respond to UAC prompt), [Environment Variables]
> 
> 	This presents a window with "user" (the admin account being used after
> the UAC authorization) and "system" which are the environment variables
> that apply to all users.
> 
> 	To change regular user environment variables, open old-style control
> panel, drill down in "User Accounts" until your get to your account, and
> there will be an option on the left for editing environment variables.
> 
> 
It's not necessary to have Python in the path - it may perhaps be a 
little more comfortable, but not much. The file extensions .py and .pyw 
can be associated with python and pythonw, there is the Python Launcher, 
and for things like pip you can always change into your Python 
directory. But pip works just as well with the Launcher.


From torriem at gmail.com  Wed Jan 20 10:33:40 2021
From: torriem at gmail.com (Michael Torrie)
Date: Wed, 20 Jan 2021 08:33:40 -0700
Subject: Issues with running python in Command prompt
In-Reply-To: <ru8fo0$umv$2@gioia.aioe.org>
References: <CADOd39fcqOego2N9ooLZeQ4Re4scDBdDBEmW588RC+YrTYcZQw@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.844.1610821086.7193.python-list@python.org>
 <ru8fo0$umv$2@gioia.aioe.org>
Message-ID: <c5fa85ee-4f16-95ae-6bc8-d847a653e16d@gmail.com>

On 1/19/21 10:40 PM, Mladen Gogala via Python-list wrote:
> I generally advise
> using Cygwin and installing the Cygwin version of Python. Your OS will 
> look like a POSIX compatible system, and you will be able to use Unix/
> Linux tools like bash, less. vi, awk, grep and alike. You will also be 
> able to use "/" as a directory separator which is really helpful when it 
> comes to regular expressions.

I've used cygwin for many years.  I would not use cygin if I were the
OP.  This is probably for more advanced users with particular needs.  I
recommend sticking to the official windows version of Python, and
following the detailed instructions on the web page Mats Wichmann
referred to.

You can use escape characters in regular expression on any platform
Python runs on.  Python has a whole host of features to deal with the
directory separator differences on Windows vs everybody else.

From cnweike at gmail.com  Wed Jan 20 14:54:39 2021
From: cnweike at gmail.com (panfei)
Date: Wed, 20 Jan 2021 11:54:39 -0800 (PST)
Subject: sqlite3 cannot detect the version of compiled sqlite version at some
 point in runtime.
Message-ID: <bb94b5a0-ea82-4365-b628-d4b7e1cc79b8n@googlegroups.com>

System environment:

Cent OS 7
Sqlite3 3.34.0 (Compile from source)
Python 3.9.1 (Compile from source)
Django 3.1.5 (Pip install)


1. Compile sqlite3:
./configure --prefix=/home/felix/.local/sqlite/sqlite-3.34.0
make && make install

2. Add sqlite3 lib to lib search path:

export LD_LIBRARY_PATH=/home/felix/.local/sqlite/sqlite-3.34.0/lib
export LD_RUN_PATH=/home/felix/.local/sqlite/sqlite-3.34.0/lib

3. Compile Python 3.9.1
C_INCLUDE_PATH=/home/felix/.local/sqlite/sqlite-3.34.0/include/ CPLUS_INCLUDE_PATH=/home/felix/.local/sqlite/sqlite-3.34.0/include/ LD_RUN_PATH=/home/felix/.local/sqlite/default/lib ./configure --prefix=/home/felix/.local/python/python-3.9.1 --enable-optimizations
make && make install

4. Test sqlite3
Python 3.9.1 (default, Jan 20 2021, 14:32:50)
[GCC 10.2.0] on linux
Type "help", "copyright", "credits" or "license" for more information.
>>> import sqlite3
>>> conn = sqlite3.connect(':memory:')
>>> conn.create_function('f', 2, lambda *args: None, deterministic=True)
Traceback (most recent call last):
  File "<stdin>", line 1, in <module>
sqlite3.NotSupportedError: deterministic=True requires SQLite 3.8.3 or higher
>>> sqlite3.sqlite_version
'3.34.0'
>>> sqlite3.version
'2.6.0'
>>> 

It reports "deterministic=True requires SQLite 3.8.3 or higher", but when execute sqlite3.sqlite_version it returns 3.34.0 which higher than 3.8.3.

Is there any advice on this issue? thanks.

From ben.usenet at bsb.me.uk  Wed Jan 20 15:09:46 2021
From: ben.usenet at bsb.me.uk (Ben Bacarisse)
Date: Wed, 20 Jan 2021 20:09:46 +0000
Subject: sqlite3 cannot detect the version of compiled sqlite version at
 some point in runtime.
References: <bb94b5a0-ea82-4365-b628-d4b7e1cc79b8n@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <87o8hj2wvp.fsf@bsb.me.uk>

panfei <cnweike at gmail.com> writes:

> 4. Test sqlite3
> Python 3.9.1 (default, Jan 20 2021, 14:32:50)
> [GCC 10.2.0] on linux
> Type "help", "copyright", "credits" or "license" for more information.
>>>> import sqlite3
>>>> conn = sqlite3.connect(':memory:')
>>>> conn.create_function('f', 2, lambda *args: None, deterministic=True)
> Traceback (most recent call last):
>   File "<stdin>", line 1, in <module>
> sqlite3.NotSupportedError: deterministic=True requires SQLite 3.8.3 or higher
>>>> sqlite3.sqlite_version
> '3.34.0'
>>>> sqlite3.version
> '2.6.0'
>>>> 
>
> It reports "deterministic=True requires SQLite 3.8.3 or higher", but
> when execute sqlite3.sqlite_version it returns 3.34.0 which higher
> than 3.8.3.
>
> Is there any advice on this issue? thanks.

Sorry, no, but I can add a data point.  It works for me on my Ubuntu
system with these versions:

$ python3
Python 3.8.5 (default, Jul 28 2020, 12:59:40) 
[GCC 9.3.0] on linux
Type "help", "copyright", "credits" or "license" for more information.
>>> import sqlite3
>>> sqlite3.sqlite_version
'3.31.1'
>>> sqlite3.version
'2.6.0'
>>> conn = sqlite3.connect(':memory:')
>>> conn.create_function('f', 2, lambda *args: None, deterministic=True)
>>> 

-- 
Ben.

From random832 at fastmail.com  Wed Jan 20 16:45:54 2021
From: random832 at fastmail.com (Random832)
Date: Wed, 20 Jan 2021 16:45:54 -0500
Subject: =?UTF-8?Q?Re:_sqlite3_cannot_detect_the_version_of_compiled_sqlite_versi?=
 =?UTF-8?Q?on_at_some_point_in_runtime.?=
In-Reply-To: <bb94b5a0-ea82-4365-b628-d4b7e1cc79b8n@googlegroups.com>
References: <bb94b5a0-ea82-4365-b628-d4b7e1cc79b8n@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <12a307a2-e2ee-451d-bf2f-eee320629840@www.fastmail.com>

On Wed, Jan 20, 2021, at 14:54, panfei wrote:
> 3. Compile Python 3.9.1
> C_INCLUDE_PATH=/home/felix/.local/sqlite/sqlite-3.34.0/include/ 
> CPLUS_INCLUDE_PATH=/home/felix/.local/sqlite/sqlite-3.34.0/include/ 
> LD_RUN_PATH=/home/felix/.local/sqlite/default/lib ./configure 
> --prefix=/home/felix/.local/python/python-3.9.1 --enable-optimizations
> make && make install

How *exactly* did you compile python? i.e. what specific commands, to make it pick up those include paths? Because from the symptoms you are reporting, it sounds like it was not compiled against the correct version of sqlite.

From barry at barrys-emacs.org  Wed Jan 20 16:53:16 2021
From: barry at barrys-emacs.org (Barry Scott)
Date: Wed, 20 Jan 2021 21:53:16 +0000
Subject: sqlite3 cannot detect the version of compiled sqlite version at
 some point in runtime.
In-Reply-To: <bb94b5a0-ea82-4365-b628-d4b7e1cc79b8n@googlegroups.com>
References: <bb94b5a0-ea82-4365-b628-d4b7e1cc79b8n@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <3DD6F30B-924B-467D-8D21-3339FC291333@barrys-emacs.org>



> On 20 Jan 2021, at 19:54, panfei <cnweike at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> System environment:
> 
> Cent OS 7
> Sqlite3 3.34.0 (Compile from source)
> Python 3.9.1 (Compile from source)
> Django 3.1.5 (Pip install)
> 
> 
> 1. Compile sqlite3:
> ./configure --prefix=/home/felix/.local/sqlite/sqlite-3.34.0
> make && make install
> 
> 2. Add sqlite3 lib to lib search path:
> 
> export LD_LIBRARY_PATH=/home/felix/.local/sqlite/sqlite-3.34.0/lib
> export LD_RUN_PATH=/home/felix/.local/sqlite/sqlite-3.34.0/lib
> 
> 3. Compile Python 3.9.1
> C_INCLUDE_PATH=/home/felix/.local/sqlite/sqlite-3.34.0/include/ CPLUS_INCLUDE_PATH=/home/felix/.local/sqlite/sqlite-3.34.0/include/ LD_RUN_PATH=/home/felix/.local/sqlite/default/lib ./configure --prefix=/home/felix/.local/python/python-3.9.1 --enable-optimizations
> make && make install
> 
> 4. Test sqlite3
> Python 3.9.1 (default, Jan 20 2021, 14:32:50)
> [GCC 10.2.0] on linux
> Type "help", "copyright", "credits" or "license" for more information.
>>>> import sqlite3
>>>> conn = sqlite3.connect(':memory:')
>>>> conn.create_function('f', 2, lambda *args: None, deterministic=True)
> Traceback (most recent call last):
>  File "<stdin>", line 1, in <module>
> sqlite3.NotSupportedError: deterministic=True requires SQLite 3.8.3 or higher
>>>> sqlite3.sqlite_version
> '3.34.0'
>>>> sqlite3.version
> '2.6.0'
>>>> 
> 
> It reports "deterministic=True requires SQLite 3.8.3 or higher", but when execute sqlite3.sqlite_version it returns 3.34.0 which higher than 3.8.3.
> 
> Is there any advice on this issue? thanks.

My guess is that at runtime the systems old sqlite3 is used and not your new one.
is LD_LIBRARY_PATH setup correctly when you run python3.9?

You can check this by doing the following:

$ gdb python3.9
(gdb) run
>>> import sqlite3
Ctrl-C
(gdb) info shared

Below is that I get on a Fedora 33 system by way of example output:

$ gdb python3.9
GNU gdb (GDB) Fedora 10.1-2.fc33
Copyright (C) 2020 Free Software Foundation, Inc.
License GPLv3+: GNU GPL version 3 or later <http://gnu.org/licenses/gpl.html>
This is free software: you are free to change and redistribute it.
There is NO WARRANTY, to the extent permitted by law.
Type "show copying" and "show warranty" for details.
This GDB was configured as "x86_64-redhat-linux-gnu".
Type "show configuration" for configuration details.
For bug reporting instructions, please see:
<https://www.gnu.org/software/gdb/bugs/>.
Find the GDB manual and other documentation resources online at:
    <http://www.gnu.org/software/gdb/documentation/>.

For help, type "help".
Type "apropos word" to search for commands related to "word"...
Reading symbols from python3.9...
Reading symbols from .gnu_debugdata for /usr/bin/python3.9...
(No debugging symbols found in .gnu_debugdata for /usr/bin/python3.9)
Missing separate debuginfos, use: dnf debuginfo-install python3-3.9.1-1.fc33.x86_64
(gdb) run
Starting program: /usr/bin/python3.9 
[Thread debugging using libthread_db enabled]
Using host libthread_db library "/lib64/libthread_db.so.1".
Python 3.9.1 (default, Dec  8 2020, 00:00:00) 
[GCC 10.2.1 20201125 (Red Hat 10.2.1-9)] on linux
Type "help", "copyright", "credits" or "license" for more information.
>>> import sqlite3
>>> 
Program received signal SIGINT, Interrupt.
0x00007ffff7b7ff4a in select () from /lib64/libc.so.6
(gdb) i sh
From                To                  Syms Read   Shared Object Library
0x00007ffff7fd2090  0x00007ffff7ff2f96  Yes (*)     /lib64/ld-linux-x86-64.so.2
0x00007ffff7caed30  0x00007ffff7e58c7d  Yes (*)     /lib64/libpython3.9.so.1.0
0x00007ffff7aad690  0x00007ffff7bfa69d  Yes (*)     /lib64/libc.so.6
0x00007ffff7a6ca90  0x00007ffff7a7b125  Yes (*)     /lib64/libpthread.so.0
0x00007ffff7a60270  0x00007ffff7a611c9  Yes (*)     /lib64/libdl.so.2
0x00007ffff7a5a3f0  0x00007ffff7a5adb0  Yes (*)     /lib64/libutil.so.1
0x00007ffff79223d0  0x00007ffff79bd718  Yes (*)     /lib64/libm.so.6
0x00007ffff7fbca50  0x00007ffff7fbe310  Yes (*)     /usr/lib64/python3.9/lib-dynload/readline.cpython-39-x86_64-linux-gnu.so
0x00007fffea1dc270  0x00007fffea204587  Yes (*)     /lib64/libreadline.so.8
0x00007fffea1a3470  0x00007fffea1afb8c  Yes (*)     /lib64/libtinfo.so.6
0x00007fffea22ba70  0x00007fffea2316ef  Yes (*)     /usr/lib64/python3.9/lib-dynload/math.cpython-39-x86_64-linux-gnu.so
0x00007fffea13ead0  0x00007fffea149d8c  Yes (*)     /usr/lib64/python3.9/lib-dynload/_datetime.cpython-39-x86_64-linux-gnu.so
0x00007ffff7fb2170  0x00007ffff7fb318b  Yes (*)     /usr/lib64/python3.9/lib-dynload/_heapq.cpython-39-x86_64-linux-gnu.so
0x00007fffea128510  0x00007fffea1308ee  Yes (*)     /usr/lib64/python3.9/lib-dynload/_sqlite3.cpython-39-x86_64-linux-gnu.so
0x00007fffe9fd79b0  0x00007fffea0c7024  Yes (*)     /lib64/libsqlite3.so.0
0x00007fffe9fb05f0  0x00007fffe9fbdb2b  Yes (*)     /lib64/libz.so.1
(*): Shared library is missing debugging information.
(gdb) 

You can see that the python module is:
     /usr/lib64/python3.9/lib-dynload/_sqlite3.cpython-39-x86_64-linux-gnu.so

and that libsqlite3 comes from:
    /lib64/libsqlite3.so.0

Barry



> -- 
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
> 


From random832 at fastmail.com  Wed Jan 20 16:57:03 2021
From: random832 at fastmail.com (Random832)
Date: Wed, 20 Jan 2021 16:57:03 -0500
Subject: =?UTF-8?Q?Re:_sqlite3_cannot_detect_the_version_of_compiled_sqlite_versi?=
 =?UTF-8?Q?on_at_some_point_in_runtime.?=
In-Reply-To: <12a307a2-e2ee-451d-bf2f-eee320629840@www.fastmail.com>
References: <bb94b5a0-ea82-4365-b628-d4b7e1cc79b8n@googlegroups.com>
 <12a307a2-e2ee-451d-bf2f-eee320629840@www.fastmail.com>
Message-ID: <d9c72668-7bf9-4890-96a9-ba22ad815f6e@www.fastmail.com>

On Wed, Jan 20, 2021, at 16:45, Random832 wrote:
> On Wed, Jan 20, 2021, at 14:54, panfei wrote:
> > 3. Compile Python 3.9.1
> > C_INCLUDE_PATH=/home/felix/.local/sqlite/sqlite-3.34.0/include/ 
> > CPLUS_INCLUDE_PATH=/home/felix/.local/sqlite/sqlite-3.34.0/include/ 
> > LD_RUN_PATH=/home/felix/.local/sqlite/default/lib ./configure 
> > --prefix=/home/felix/.local/python/python-3.9.1 --enable-optimizations
> > make && make install
> 
> How *exactly* did you compile python? i.e. what specific commands, to 
> make it pick up those include paths? Because from the symptoms you are 
> reporting, it sounds like it was not compiled against the correct 
> version of sqlite.

Oh, sorry, I missed "./configure" on that line.

So, it looks like you had the environment variables set when you ran configure, but not make. I don't think this is a common way to set include paths, by the way. The usual way is with pkg-config, but I'm not sure how to add your .local sqlite directory to it. Does your sqlite installation include a file called "sqlite3.pc"? If so, try adding the directory containing it to PKG_CONFIG_PATH when running configure.

If not... well, export the environment variables or add them when running make and hope for the best

From mrd at redhat.com  Wed Jan 20 17:13:48 2021
From: mrd at redhat.com (Matt Davis)
Date: Wed, 20 Jan 2021 14:13:48 -0800
Subject: [ANN] PyYAML-5.4.1 Released
Message-ID: <CAJD0SsgaAOVBnCTpz2d8vdOtxAwsr5bHmsJi4TuZGvXKnLavtA@mail.gmail.com>

=======================
Announcing PyYAML-5.4.1
=======================

A new release of PyYAML is now available:
https://github.com/yaml/pyyaml/releases/tag/5.4.1

This release contains a fix for AttributeError during module import in some
mixed version installations.

PyYAML 5.4.1 will be the last release to support Python 2.7 (except for
possible
critical bug fix releases).


Changes
=======

* https://github.com/yaml/pyyaml/pull/480 -- Fix stub compat with older
pyyaml versions that may unwittingly load it


Resources
=========

PyYAML IRC Channel: #pyyaml on irc.freenode.net
PyYAML homepage: https://github.com/yaml/pyyaml
PyYAML documentation: http://pyyaml.org/wiki/PyYAMLDocumentation
Source and binary installers: https://pypi.org/project/PyYAML/
GitHub repository: https://github.com/yaml/pyyaml/
Bug tracking: https://github.com/yaml/pyyaml/issues

YAML homepage: http://yaml.org/
YAML-core mailing list:
http://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/yaml-core


About PyYAML
============

YAML is a data serialization format designed for human readability and
interaction with scripting languages. PyYAML is a YAML parser and emitter
for
Python.

PyYAML features a complete YAML 1.1 parser, Unicode support, pickle support,
capable extension API, and sensible error messages. PyYAML supports standard
YAML tags and provides Python-specific tags that allow to represent an
arbitrary Python object.

PyYAML is applicable for a broad range of tasks from complex configuration
files to object serialization and persistence.


Example
=======

```
>>> import yaml

>>> yaml.full_load("""
... name: PyYAML
... description: YAML parser and emitter for Python
... homepage: https://github.com/yaml/pyyaml
... keywords: [YAML, serialization, configuration, persistence, pickle]
... """)
{'keywords': ['YAML', 'serialization', 'configuration', 'persistence',
'pickle'], 'homepage': 'https://github.com/yaml/pyyaml', 'description':
'YAML parser and emitter for Python', 'name': 'PyYAML'}

>>> print(yaml.dump(_))
name: PyYAML
homepage: https://github.com/yaml/pyyaml
description: YAML parser and emitter for Python
keywords: [YAML, serialization, configuration, persistence, pickle]
```

Maintainers
===========

The following people are currently responsible for maintaining PyYAML:

* Ingy d?t Net
* Matt Davis

and many thanks to all who have contributed!
See: https://github.com/yaml/pyyaml/pulls


Copyright
=========

Copyright (c) 2017-2021 Ingy d?t Net <ingy at ingy.net>
Copyright (c) 2006-2016 Kirill Simonov <xi at resolvent.net>

The PyYAML module was written by Kirill Simonov <xi at resolvent.net>.
It is currently maintained by the YAML and Python communities.

PyYAML is released under the MIT license.
See the file LICENSE for more details.

From mgogala at yahoo.com  Wed Jan 20 21:10:44 2021
From: mgogala at yahoo.com (Mladen Gogala)
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 2021 02:10:44 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: Issues with running python in Command prompt
References: <CADOd39fcqOego2N9ooLZeQ4Re4scDBdDBEmW588RC+YrTYcZQw@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.844.1610821086.7193.python-list@python.org>
 <ru8fo0$umv$2@gioia.aioe.org>
 <c5fa85ee-4f16-95ae-6bc8-d847a653e16d@gmail.com>
 <mailman.892.1611156826.7193.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <ruanr4$p78$1@gioia.aioe.org>

On Wed, 20 Jan 2021 08:33:40 -0700, Michael Torrie wrote:

> You can use escape characters in regular expression on any platform
> Python runs on.  Python has a whole host of features to deal with the
> directory separator differences on Windows vs everybody else.

I am probably slightly biased. I am an old Unix hack who has learned Perl4 
in the early 90's and was using it until 2019 when I was told that Perl 
is not an approved language in the company and that I have to learn 
Python. So I did. I was a VAX/VMS system admin and instructor from 1987 - 
1996. After 1993 I was working for a SGI distributor, using Irix. I have 
worked with HP-UX, AIX, AT&T Unix, Wyse Unix, SCO Unix and, eventually, 
Linux, among other things. I might be slightly biased against Windows.

-- 
Mladen Gogala
Database Consultant
https://dbwhisperer.wordpress.com

From cnweike at gmail.com  Wed Jan 20 21:43:50 2021
From: cnweike at gmail.com (panfei)
Date: Wed, 20 Jan 2021 18:43:50 -0800 (PST)
Subject: sqlite3 cannot detect the version of compiled sqlite version at
 some point in runtime.
In-Reply-To: <mailman.894.1611179599.7193.python-list@python.org>
References: <3DD6F30B-924B-467D-8D21-3339FC291333@barrys-emacs.org>
 <bb94b5a0-ea82-4365-b628-d4b7e1cc79b8n@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.894.1611179599.7193.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <b1558f1d-03a9-487d-b7b4-61377f407fa7n@googlegroups.com>

HI Barry, Thanks for the suggestions, this is my output:

[felix at localhost Downloads]$ gdb /home/felix/.local/python/python-3.9.1/bin/python3
GNU gdb (GDB) Red Hat Enterprise Linux 7.6.1-120.el7
Copyright (C) 2013 Free Software Foundation, Inc.
License GPLv3+: GNU GPL version 3 or later <http://gnu.org/licenses/gpl.html>
This is free software: you are free to change and redistribute it.
There is NO WARRANTY, to the extent permitted by law.  Type "show copying"
and "show warranty" for details.
This GDB was configured as "x86_64-redhat-linux-gnu".
For bug reporting instructions, please see:
<http://www.gnu.org/software/gdb/bugs/>...
Reading symbols from /home/felix/.local/python/python-3.9.1/bin/python3.9...done.
(gdb) run
Starting program: /home/felix/.local/python/python-3.9.1/bin/python3 
[Thread debugging using libthread_db enabled]
Using host libthread_db library "/lib64/libthread_db.so.1".
Python 3.9.1 (default, Jan 21 2021, 02:04:50) 
[GCC 10.2.0] on linux
Type "help", "copyright", "credits" or "license" for more information.
>>> import sqlite3
>>> 
Program received signal SIGINT, Interrupt.
0x00007ffff6a15983 in __select_nocancel () from /lib64/libc.so.6
Missing separate debuginfos, use: debuginfo-install glibc-2.17-317.el7.x86_64 ncurses-libs-5.9-14.20130511.el7_4.x86_64 nss-softokn-freebl-3.53.1-6.el7_9.x86_64 readline-6.2-11.el7.x86_64 zlib-1.2.7-18.el7.x86_64
(gdb) info shared
>From                To                  Syms Read   Shared Object Library
0x00007ffff7ddbaf0  0x00007ffff7df7060  Yes (*)     /lib64/ld-linux-x86-64.so.2
0x00007ffff78af410  0x00007ffff7a7fd82  Yes         /home/felix/.local/python/python-3.9.1/lib/libpython3.9.so.1.0
0x00007ffff7613e30  0x00007ffff7618cec  Yes (*)     /lib64/libcrypt.so.1
0x00007ffff73fc8f0  0x00007ffff7407db1  Yes (*)     /lib64/libpthread.so.0
0x00007ffff71f3e50  0x00007ffff71f494e  Yes (*)     /lib64/libdl.so.2
0x00007ffff6ff0e90  0x00007ffff6ff17a4  Yes (*)     /lib64/libutil.so.1
0x00007ffff6cf3350  0x00007ffff6d5e316  Yes (*)     /lib64/libm.so.6
0x00007ffff693f9f0  0x00007ffff6a8f9cf  Yes (*)     /lib64/libc.so.6
0x00007ffff671db80  0x00007ffff671e1fb  Yes (*)     /lib64/libfreebl3.so
0x00007fffeffd50b0  0x00007fffeffd6952  Yes         /home/felix/.local/python/python-3.9.1/lib/python3.9/lib-dynload/readline.cpython-39-x86_64-linux-gnu.so
0x00007fffefda0de0  0x00007fffefdbf775  Yes (*)     /lib64/libreadline.so.6
0x00007fffefb6ee40  0x00007fffefb7abb8  Yes (*)     /lib64/libtinfo.so.5
0x00007fffef9557c0  0x00007fffef95c9b2  Yes         /home/felix/.local/python/python-3.9.1/lib/python3.9/lib-dynload/math.cpython-39-x86_64-linux-gnu.so
0x00007fffef6f4cd0  0x00007fffef7080b8  Yes         /home/felix/.local/python/python-3.9.1/lib/python3.9/lib-dynload/_datetime.cpython-39-x86_64-linux-gnu.so
0x00007fffef4e8c40  0x00007fffef4ebd13  Yes         /home/felix/.local/python/python-3.9.1/lib/python3.9/lib-dynload/_heapq.cpython-39-x86_64-linux-gnu.so
0x00007fffef2d7180  0x00007fffef2e08ba  Yes         /home/felix/.local/python/python-3.9.1/lib/python3.9/lib-dynload/_sqlite3.cpython-39-x86_64-linux-gnu.so
0x00007fffeefadf00  0x00007fffef096c00  Yes         /home/felix/.local/sqlite/default/lib/libsqlite3.so.0
0x00007fffeed8b110  0x00007fffeed97698  Yes (*)     /lib64/libz.so.1
(*): Shared library is missing debugging information.
(gdb) 

I created a symbol link to specific version of sqlite3 and set LD_LIBRARY_PATH:

[felix at localhost sqlite]$ ll
total 0
lrwxrwxrwx 1 felix felix  6 Feb 18  2020 default -> latest
lrwxrwxrwx 1 felix felix 13 Jan 20 12:51 latest -> sqlite-3.34.0
drwxrwxr-x 6 felix felix 52 Feb 18  2020 sqlite-3.31.1
drwxrwxr-x 6 felix felix 52 Jan 20 12:51 sqlite-3.34.0
[felix at localhost sqlite]$ pwd
/home/felix/.local/sqlite
[felix at localhost sqlite]$ env | grep LD_
LD_LIBRARY_PATH=/home/felix/.local/mpfr/default/lib/:/home/felix/.local/gmp/default/lib/:/home/felix/.local/mpc/default/lib/:/home/felix/.local/sqlite/default/lib:/home/felix/.local/mysql/default/lib
LD_RUN_PATH=/home/felix/.local/sqlite/default/lib




? 2021?1?21???? UTC+8 ??5:53:38?<Barry Scott> ???
> > On 20 Jan 2021, at 19:54, panfei <cnw... at gmail.com> wrote: 
> > 
> > System environment: 
> > 
> > Cent OS 7 
> > Sqlite3 3.34.0 (Compile from source) 
> > Python 3.9.1 (Compile from source) 
> > Django 3.1.5 (Pip install) 
> > 
> > 
> > 1. Compile sqlite3: 
> > ./configure --prefix=/home/felix/.local/sqlite/sqlite-3.34.0 
> > make && make install 
> > 
> > 2. Add sqlite3 lib to lib search path: 
> > 
> > export LD_LIBRARY_PATH=/home/felix/.local/sqlite/sqlite-3.34.0/lib 
> > export LD_RUN_PATH=/home/felix/.local/sqlite/sqlite-3.34.0/lib 
> > 
> > 3. Compile Python 3.9.1 
> > C_INCLUDE_PATH=/home/felix/.local/sqlite/sqlite-3.34.0/include/ CPLUS_INCLUDE_PATH=/home/felix/.local/sqlite/sqlite-3.34.0/include/ LD_RUN_PATH=/home/felix/.local/sqlite/default/lib ./configure --prefix=/home/felix/.local/python/python-3.9.1 --enable-optimizations 
> > make && make install 
> > 
> > 4. Test sqlite3 
> > Python 3.9.1 (default, Jan 20 2021, 14:32:50) 
> > [GCC 10.2.0] on linux 
> > Type "help", "copyright", "credits" or "license" for more information. 
> >>>> import sqlite3 
> >>>> conn = sqlite3.connect(':memory:') 
> >>>> conn.create_function('f', 2, lambda *args: None, deterministic=True) 
> > Traceback (most recent call last): 
> > File "<stdin>", line 1, in <module> 
> > sqlite3.NotSupportedError: deterministic=True requires SQLite 3.8.3 or higher 
> >>>> sqlite3.sqlite_version 
> > '3.34.0' 
> >>>> sqlite3.version 
> > '2.6.0' 
> >>>> 
> > 
> > It reports "deterministic=True requires SQLite 3.8.3 or higher", but when execute sqlite3.sqlite_version it returns 3.34.0 which higher than 3.8.3. 
> > 
> > Is there any advice on this issue? thanks.
> My guess is that at runtime the systems old sqlite3 is used and not your new one. 
> is LD_LIBRARY_PATH setup correctly when you run python3.9? 
> 
> You can check this by doing the following: 
> 
> $ gdb python3.9 
> (gdb) run 
> >>> import sqlite3 
> Ctrl-C 
> (gdb) info shared 
> 
> Below is that I get on a Fedora 33 system by way of example output: 
> 
> $ gdb python3.9 
> GNU gdb (GDB) Fedora 10.1-2.fc33 
> Copyright (C) 2020 Free Software Foundation, Inc. 
> License GPLv3+: GNU GPL version 3 or later <http://gnu.org/licenses/gpl.html> 
> This is free software: you are free to change and redistribute it. 
> There is NO WARRANTY, to the extent permitted by law. 
> Type "show copying" and "show warranty" for details. 
> This GDB was configured as "x86_64-redhat-linux-gnu". 
> Type "show configuration" for configuration details. 
> For bug reporting instructions, please see: 
> <https://www.gnu.org/software/gdb/bugs/>. 
> Find the GDB manual and other documentation resources online at: 
> <http://www.gnu.org/software/gdb/documentation/>. 
> 
> For help, type "help". 
> Type "apropos word" to search for commands related to "word"... 
> Reading symbols from python3.9... 
> Reading symbols from .gnu_debugdata for /usr/bin/python3.9... 
> (No debugging symbols found in .gnu_debugdata for /usr/bin/python3.9) 
> Missing separate debuginfos, use: dnf debuginfo-install python3-3.9.1-1.fc33.x86_64 
> (gdb) run 
> Starting program: /usr/bin/python3.9 
> [Thread debugging using libthread_db enabled] 
> Using host libthread_db library "/lib64/libthread_db.so.1". 
> Python 3.9.1 (default, Dec 8 2020, 00:00:00) 
> [GCC 10.2.1 20201125 (Red Hat 10.2.1-9)] on linux
> Type "help", "copyright", "credits" or "license" for more information. 
> >>> import sqlite3 
> >>>
> Program received signal SIGINT, Interrupt. 
> 0x00007ffff7b7ff4a in select () from /lib64/libc.so.6 
> (gdb) i sh 
> From To Syms Read Shared Object Library 
> 0x00007ffff7fd2090 0x00007ffff7ff2f96 Yes (*) /lib64/ld-linux-x86-64.so.2 
> 0x00007ffff7caed30 0x00007ffff7e58c7d Yes (*) /lib64/libpython3.9.so.1.0 
> 0x00007ffff7aad690 0x00007ffff7bfa69d Yes (*) /lib64/libc.so.6 
> 0x00007ffff7a6ca90 0x00007ffff7a7b125 Yes (*) /lib64/libpthread.so.0 
> 0x00007ffff7a60270 0x00007ffff7a611c9 Yes (*) /lib64/libdl.so.2 
> 0x00007ffff7a5a3f0 0x00007ffff7a5adb0 Yes (*) /lib64/libutil.so.1 
> 0x00007ffff79223d0 0x00007ffff79bd718 Yes (*) /lib64/libm.so.6 
> 0x00007ffff7fbca50 0x00007ffff7fbe310 Yes (*) /usr/lib64/python3.9/lib-dynload/readline.cpython-39-x86_64-linux-gnu.so 
> 0x00007fffea1dc270 0x00007fffea204587 Yes (*) /lib64/libreadline.so.8 
> 0x00007fffea1a3470 0x00007fffea1afb8c Yes (*) /lib64/libtinfo.so.6 
> 0x00007fffea22ba70 0x00007fffea2316ef Yes (*) /usr/lib64/python3.9/lib-dynload/math.cpython-39-x86_64-linux-gnu.so 
> 0x00007fffea13ead0 0x00007fffea149d8c Yes (*) /usr/lib64/python3.9/lib-dynload/_datetime.cpython-39-x86_64-linux-gnu.so 
> 0x00007ffff7fb2170 0x00007ffff7fb318b Yes (*) /usr/lib64/python3.9/lib-dynload/_heapq.cpython-39-x86_64-linux-gnu.so 
> 0x00007fffea128510 0x00007fffea1308ee Yes (*) /usr/lib64/python3.9/lib-dynload/_sqlite3.cpython-39-x86_64-linux-gnu.so 
> 0x00007fffe9fd79b0 0x00007fffea0c7024 Yes (*) /lib64/libsqlite3.so.0 
> 0x00007fffe9fb05f0 0x00007fffe9fbdb2b Yes (*) /lib64/libz.so.1 
> (*): Shared library is missing debugging information. 
> (gdb) 
> 
> You can see that the python module is: 
> /usr/lib64/python3.9/lib-dynload/_sqlite3.cpython-39-x86_64-linux-gnu.so 
> 
> and that libsqlite3 comes from: 
> /lib64/libsqlite3.so.0 
> 
> Barry 
> 
> 
> 
> > -- 
> > https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list 
> >

From cnweike at gmail.com  Wed Jan 20 21:46:45 2021
From: cnweike at gmail.com (panfei)
Date: Wed, 20 Jan 2021 18:46:45 -0800 (PST)
Subject: sqlite3 cannot detect the version of compiled sqlite version at
 some point in runtime.
In-Reply-To: <mailman.895.1611179847.7193.python-list@python.org>
References: <bb94b5a0-ea82-4365-b628-d4b7e1cc79b8n@googlegroups.com>
 <d9c72668-7bf9-4890-96a9-ba22ad815f6e@www.fastmail.com>
 <12a307a2-e2ee-451d-bf2f-eee320629840@www.fastmail.com>
 <mailman.895.1611179847.7193.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <4bdbc59d-87c1-4868-b84e-a1d78d872392n@googlegroups.com>

Hi Random:
Thanks for the suggestion, I will test it right now. there is a file called sqlite3.pc in my installation.

[felix at localhost pkgconfig]$ ll
total 4
-rw-r--r-- 1 felix felix 315 Jan 20 12:51 sqlite3.pc
[felix at localhost pkgconfig]$ pwd
/home/felix/.local/sqlite/default/lib/pkgconfig

? 2021?1?21???? UTC+8 ??5:57:43?<Random832> ???
> On Wed, Jan 20, 2021, at 16:45, Random832 wrote: 
> > On Wed, Jan 20, 2021, at 14:54, panfei wrote:
> > > 3. Compile Python 3.9.1 
> > > C_INCLUDE_PATH=/home/felix/.local/sqlite/sqlite-3.34.0/include/ 
> > > CPLUS_INCLUDE_PATH=/home/felix/.local/sqlite/sqlite-3.34.0/include/ 
> > > LD_RUN_PATH=/home/felix/.local/sqlite/default/lib ./configure 
> > > --prefix=/home/felix/.local/python/python-3.9.1 --enable-optimizations 
> > > make && make install 
> >
> > How *exactly* did you compile python? i.e. what specific commands, to 
> > make it pick up those include paths? Because from the symptoms you are 
> > reporting, it sounds like it was not compiled against the correct 
> > version of sqlite.
> Oh, sorry, I missed "./configure" on that line. 
> 
> So, it looks like you had the environment variables set when you ran configure, but not make. I don't think this is a common way to set include paths, by the way. The usual way is with pkg-config, but I'm not sure how to add your .local sqlite directory to it. Does your sqlite installation include a file called "sqlite3.pc"? If so, try adding the directory containing it to PKG_CONFIG_PATH when running configure. 
> 
> If not... well, export the environment variables or add them when running make and hope for the best

From cnweike at gmail.com  Wed Jan 20 22:04:33 2021
From: cnweike at gmail.com (panfei)
Date: Wed, 20 Jan 2021 19:04:33 -0800 (PST)
Subject: sqlite3 cannot detect the version of compiled sqlite version at
 some point in runtime.
In-Reply-To: <mailman.895.1611179847.7193.python-list@python.org>
References: <bb94b5a0-ea82-4365-b628-d4b7e1cc79b8n@googlegroups.com>
 <d9c72668-7bf9-4890-96a9-ba22ad815f6e@www.fastmail.com>
 <12a307a2-e2ee-451d-bf2f-eee320629840@www.fastmail.com>
 <mailman.895.1611179847.7193.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <0d4afcd9-5093-4f47-9a58-75cdf43411d8n@googlegroups.com>

1033  C_INCLUDE_PATH=/home/felix/.local/sqlite/default/include/ CPLUS_INCLUDE_PATH=/home/felix/.local/sqlite/default/include/ LD_RUN_PATH=/home/felix/.local/sqlite/default/lib ./configure --prefix=/home/felix/.local/python/python-3.9.1 --enable-optimizations 
 1034  C_INCLUDE_PATH=/home/felix/.local/sqlite/default/include/ CPLUS_INCLUDE_PATH=/home/felix/.local/sqlite/default/include/ LD_RUN_PATH=/home/felix/.local/sqlite/default/lib make
 1035  make clean
 1036  C_INCLUDE_PATH=/home/felix/.local/sqlite/default/include/ CPLUS_INCLUDE_PATH=/home/felix/.local/sqlite/default/include/ LD_RUN_PATH=/home/felix/.local/sqlite/default/lib ./configure --prefix=/home/felix/.local/python/python-3.9.1 --enable-optimizations 
 1037  C_INCLUDE_PATH=/home/felix/.local/sqlite/default/include/ CPLUS_INCLUDE_PATH=/home/felix/.local/sqlite/default/include/ LD_RUN_PATH=/home/felix/.local/sqlite/default/lib make
 1038  C_INCLUDE_PATH=/home/felix/.local/sqlite/default/include/ CPLUS_INCLUDE_PATH=/home/felix/.local/sqlite/default/include/ LD_RUN_PATH=/home/felix/.local/sqlite/default/lib make install
 1039  /home/felix/.local/python/python-3.9.1/bin/python3
 1040  history 
[felix at localhost Python-3.9.1]$ /home/felix/.local/python/python-3.9.1/bin/python3
Python 3.9.1 (default, Jan 21 2021, 10:58:50) 
[GCC 10.2.0] on linux
Type "help", "copyright", "credits" or "license" for more information.
>>> import sqlite3
>>> conn = sqlite3.connect(':memory:') 
>>> conn.create_function('f', 2, lambda *args: None, deterministic=True)
>>> 


Thanks very !  Every step in compilation should be with the same environment variable. Thanks again!


? 2021?1?21???? UTC+8 ??5:57:43?<Random832> ???
> On Wed, Jan 20, 2021, at 16:45, Random832 wrote: 
> > On Wed, Jan 20, 2021, at 14:54, panfei wrote:
> > > 3. Compile Python 3.9.1 
> > > C_INCLUDE_PATH=/home/felix/.local/sqlite/sqlite-3.34.0/include/ 
> > > CPLUS_INCLUDE_PATH=/home/felix/.local/sqlite/sqlite-3.34.0/include/ 
> > > LD_RUN_PATH=/home/felix/.local/sqlite/default/lib ./configure 
> > > --prefix=/home/felix/.local/python/python-3.9.1 --enable-optimizations 
> > > make && make install 
> >
> > How *exactly* did you compile python? i.e. what specific commands, to 
> > make it pick up those include paths? Because from the symptoms you are 
> > reporting, it sounds like it was not compiled against the correct 
> > version of sqlite.
> Oh, sorry, I missed "./configure" on that line. 
> 
> So, it looks like you had the environment variables set when you ran configure, but not make. I don't think this is a common way to set include paths, by the way. The usual way is with pkg-config, but I'm not sure how to add your .local sqlite directory to it. Does your sqlite installation include a file called "sqlite3.pc"? If so, try adding the directory containing it to PKG_CONFIG_PATH when running configure. 
> 
> If not... well, export the environment variables or add them when running make and hope for the best

From frank at chagford.com  Thu Jan 21 01:22:08 2021
From: frank at chagford.com (Frank Millman)
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 2021 08:22:08 +0200
Subject: etree, gzip, and BytesIO
Message-ID: <rub6ih$i7o$1@ciao.gmane.io>

Hi all

This question is mostly to satisfy my curiosity.

In my app I use xml to represent certain objects, such as form 
definitions and process definitions.

They are stored in a database. I use etree.tostring() when storing them 
and etree.fromstring() when reading them back. They can be quite large, 
so I use gzip to compress them before storing them as a blob.

The sequence of events when reading them back is -
    - select gzip'd data from database
    - run gzip.decompress() to convert to a string
    - run etree.fromstring() to convert to an etree object

I was wondering if I could avoid having the unzipped string in memory, 
and create the etree object directly from the gzip'd data. I came up 
with this -

    - select gzip'd data from database
    - create a BytesIO object - fd = io.BytesIO(data)
    - use gzip to open the object - gf = gzip.open(fd)
    - run etree.parse(gf) to convert to an etree object

It works.

But I don't know what goes on under the hood, so I don't know if this 
achieves anything. If any of the steps involves decompressing the data 
and storing the entire string in memory, I may as well stick to my 
present approach.

Any thoughts?

Frank Millman


From plushmario0122 at gmail.com  Thu Jan 21 06:19:03 2021
From: plushmario0122 at gmail.com (TheGemmyGuy)
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 2021 06:19:03 -0500
Subject: Mailing
Message-ID: <CANEOrJcJT3tVyQ+VF83ADAOckrsw4TajVcTwRtgv5ojA=Qwtdg@mail.gmail.com>

A quick question; for mailing, do I send a message through e-mail or the
Python Mailman page?


Thank you

From teoenming.dec2020 at gmail.com  Thu Jan 21 09:39:10 2021
From: teoenming.dec2020 at gmail.com (Turritopsis Dohrnii Teo En Ming)
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 2021 22:39:10 +0800
Subject: Can I earn a lot of money by learning and mastering the Python
 programming language?
Message-ID: <CAKEgpXcRS5cG4KTSY6supPYYpmYOUPyZx2nQY+cypgFZi65uOg@mail.gmail.com>

Subject: Can I earn a lot of money by learning and mastering the Python
programming language?

Good day from Singapore,

I am an IT consultant with a System Integrator (SI)/computer firm in
Singapore, specializing in Systems/Infrastructure and Computer Networking.
I am thinking of creating an extra avenue/stream of income by learning
extra skills and becoming a programmer or software developer/engineer. I
hope it is not too late for a person of my age. Can I earn a lot of money
by learning and mastering the Python programming language? Thought I would
like to find out first before I jump into the bandwagon and investing my
time into learning Python. Besides Python, what other programming languages
can make me earn a lot of money? Are Python, Java and C++ the most popular
and most sought after (by employers) programming languages in the world?

I am looking forward to your advice.

Thank you very much.

Mr. Turritopsis Dohrnii Teo En Ming, 42 years old as of 21 Jan 2021
Thursday, is a TARGETED INDIVIDUAL living in Singapore. He is an IT
Consultant with a System Integrator (SI)/computer firm in Singapore. He is
an IT enthusiast.





-----BEGIN EMAIL SIGNATURE-----

The Gospel for all Targeted Individuals (TIs):

[The New York Times] Microwave Weapons Are Prime Suspect in Ills of
U.S. Embassy Workers

Link:
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/09/01/science/sonic-attack-cuba-microwave.html

********************************************************************************************

Singaporean Targeted Individual Mr. Turritopsis Dohrnii Teo En Ming's
Academic
Qualifications as at 14 Feb 2019 and refugee seeking attempts at the
United Nations Refugee Agency Bangkok (21 Mar 2017), in Taiwan (5 Aug
2019) and Australia (25 Dec 2019 to 9 Jan 2020):

[1] https://tdtemcerts.wordpress.com/

[2] https://tdtemcerts.blogspot.sg/

[3] https://www.scribd.com/user/270125049/Teo-En-Ming

-----END EMAIL SIGNATURE-----

From kushal at locationd.net  Thu Jan 21 10:57:03 2021
From: kushal at locationd.net (Kushal Kumaran)
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 2021 07:57:03 -0800
Subject: etree, gzip, and BytesIO
In-Reply-To: <rub6ih$i7o$1@ciao.gmane.io> (Frank Millman's message of "Thu, 21
 Jan 2021 08:22:08 +0200")
References: <rub6ih$i7o$1@ciao.gmane.io>
Message-ID: <87v9bqxoz4.fsf@copper.locationd.net>

On Thu, Jan 21 2021 at 08:22:08 AM, Frank Millman <frank at chagford.com> wrote:
> Hi all
>
> This question is mostly to satisfy my curiosity.
>
> In my app I use xml to represent certain objects, such as form
> definitions and process definitions.
>
> They are stored in a database. I use etree.tostring() when storing
> them and etree.fromstring() when reading them back. They can be quite
> large, so I use gzip to compress them before storing them as a blob.
>
> The sequence of events when reading them back is -
>    - select gzip'd data from database
>    - run gzip.decompress() to convert to a string
>    - run etree.fromstring() to convert to an etree object
>
> I was wondering if I could avoid having the unzipped string in memory,
> and create the etree object directly from the gzip'd data. I came up
> with this -
>
>    - select gzip'd data from database
>    - create a BytesIO object - fd = io.BytesIO(data)
>    - use gzip to open the object - gf = gzip.open(fd)
>    - run etree.parse(gf) to convert to an etree object
>
> It works.
>
> But I don't know what goes on under the hood, so I don't know if this
> achieves anything. If any of the steps involves decompressing the data
> and storing the entire string in memory, I may as well stick to my
> present approach.
>
> Any thoughts?
>

etree.parse will hold the entire uncompressed content in memory
regardless of how you supply it input.  If your question is whether you
can avoid holding an extra copy in memory, you can take a look at the
ElementTree code in
https://github.com/python/cpython/blob/3.9/Lib/xml/etree/ElementTree.py
(linked from the documentation of the library module).  The parse method
appears to read 64k at a time from the underlying stream, so using the
gzip.open stream instead of gzip.decompress should limit the duplicated
data being held in memory.

It is possible to use the XMLPullParser or iterparse etree features to
incrementally parse XML without ever holding the entire content in
memory.  But that will not give you an ElementTree object, and might not
be feasible without an entire rewrite of the rest of the code.

-- 
regards,
kushal

From david at lowryduda.com  Thu Jan 21 11:32:18 2021
From: david at lowryduda.com (David Lowry-Duda)
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 2021 11:32:18 -0500
Subject: Mailing
In-Reply-To: <CANEOrJcJT3tVyQ+VF83ADAOckrsw4TajVcTwRtgv5ojA=Qwtdg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CANEOrJcJT3tVyQ+VF83ADAOckrsw4TajVcTwRtgv5ojA=Qwtdg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <YAmskhTVkdJEGsLE@icerm-dld>

On Thu, Jan 21, 2021 at 06:19:03AM -0500, TheGemmyGuy wrote:
> A quick question; for mailing, do I send a message through e-mail or the
> Python Mailman page?

Whatever you did here works. I use email. - DLD

From grant.b.edwards at gmail.com  Thu Jan 21 15:31:46 2021
From: grant.b.edwards at gmail.com (Grant Edwards)
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 2021 20:31:46 -0000 (UTC)
Subject: Mailing
References: <CANEOrJcJT3tVyQ+VF83ADAOckrsw4TajVcTwRtgv5ojA=Qwtdg@mail.gmail.com>
 <YAmskhTVkdJEGsLE@icerm-dld>
Message-ID: <rucobh$7sm$1@ciao.gmane.io>

On 2021-01-21, David Lowry-Duda <david at lowryduda.com> wrote:
> On Thu, Jan 21, 2021 at 06:19:03AM -0500, TheGemmyGuy wrote:
>> A quick question; for mailing, do I send a message through e-mail or the
>> Python Mailman page?
>
> Whatever you did here works. I use email. - DLD

NNTP client (slrn) via nntp://news.gmane.io/gmane.comp.python.general

--
Grant


From drsalists at gmail.com  Thu Jan 21 18:37:16 2021
From: drsalists at gmail.com (Dan Stromberg)
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 2021 15:37:16 -0800
Subject: Python flask logging: two different formats, but want one format
Message-ID: <CAGGBd_oG37n+DU6cQM6ywgx8hjdSWdtTvXanVe2bPJiO5UDz2g@mail.gmail.com>

I am working on a REST API using Flask.

The API is currently divided across two Python 3.6 modules: update.py and
vmware_exporters_support.py.

update.py logs the way I want. vmware_exporters_support.py does not log the
way I want. I want vmware_exporters_support.py to use update.py's logging
format without logging things twice.

In update.py, the logging is set up with:
    from flask.logging import create_logger
    app = Flask('collector_api')
    logger = create_logger(app)
    import vmware_exporters_support

And create_logger, which is part of Flask, is at
https://github.com/pallets/flask/blob/1.1.x/src/flask/logging.py

Then in vmware_exporters_support.py I'm setting up logging with:
    logger = logging.getLogger()

It seems like this should just get the root logger from update.py, but I'm
not sure it does really considering how differently it's acting.

An illustrative log snippet looks like:

    [2021-01-21 12:12:29,810] INFO in update: Writing container yaml
/data/vmware-exporter/vmware_exporter_1
    2021-01-21.12:12:29  INFO     Writing container yaml
/data/vmware-exporter/vmware_exporter_1

The [2021-01-21 12:12:29,810] (with the square brackets) is coming from
update.py, and the 2021-01-21.12:12:29 (without the square brackets) is
coming from vmware_exporters_support.py

What do I need to do to get vmware_exporters_support.py to use the same
logging format as update.py?

BTW, update.py is the __main__, not vmware_exporters_support.py.

And I'm using Flask 1.1.2.

Thanks in advance!

From cs at cskk.id.au  Thu Jan 21 19:51:06 2021
From: cs at cskk.id.au (Cameron Simpson)
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 2021 11:51:06 +1100
Subject: Python flask logging: two different formats, but want one format
In-Reply-To: <CAGGBd_oG37n+DU6cQM6ywgx8hjdSWdtTvXanVe2bPJiO5UDz2g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAGGBd_oG37n+DU6cQM6ywgx8hjdSWdtTvXanVe2bPJiO5UDz2g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <YAoheoeBNZB6Ofho@cskk.homeip.net>

On 21Jan2021 15:37, Dan Stromberg <drsalists at gmail.com> wrote:
>I am working on a REST API using Flask.
>
>The API is currently divided across two Python 3.6 modules: update.py and
>vmware_exporters_support.py.
>
>update.py logs the way I want. vmware_exporters_support.py does not log the
>way I want. I want vmware_exporters_support.py to use update.py's logging
>format without logging things twice.
>
>In update.py, the logging is set up with:
>    from flask.logging import create_logger
>    app = Flask('collector_api')
>    logger = create_logger(app)
>    import vmware_exporters_support
>
>And create_logger, which is part of Flask, is at
>https://github.com/pallets/flask/blob/1.1.x/src/flask/logging.py
>
>Then in vmware_exporters_support.py I'm setting up logging with:
>    logger = logging.getLogger()
>
>It seems like this should just get the root logger from update.py, but I'm
>not sure it does really considering how differently it's acting.

Is logger-from_flask and logger_in_vmware_exporters_support the same 
using "is"? Have you printed them? Usually loggers have names indicating 
their position in a logger tree - print should show this.

Loggers have handlers to deal with log requests, and it is the handlers 
which have the formats attached. Can you see the handlers for the root 
logger (which looks to be what vmware_exporters_support uses) and for 
the one from flask?

It doesn't seem documents, but dir() on a Logger shows a .handlers 
attribute which is a list of Handlers.

>The [2021-01-21 12:12:29,810] (with the square brackets) is coming from
>update.py, and the 2021-01-21.12:12:29 (without the square brackets) is
>coming from vmware_exporters_support.py
>
>What do I need to do to get vmware_exporters_support.py to use the same
>logging format as update.py?
>
>BTW, update.py is the __main__, not vmware_exporters_support.py.

Can you pass the logger you get from create_logger(app) to the 
vmware_exporters_support setup function? That way you could tell it to 
use your preferred logger.

Cheers,
Cameron Simpson <cs at cskk.id.au>

From samuelmarks at gmail.com  Fri Jan 22 01:58:56 2021
From: samuelmarks at gmail.com (Samuel Marks)
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 2021 17:58:56 +1100
Subject: Force Python ast to emit lines no longer than $length
In-Reply-To: <CAMfPbcbZfG9y3Vc86bK2d1TswN+r0vByQ4-QBvNFhwb4zZcxGA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAMfPbcbZfG9y3Vc86bK2d1TswN+r0vByQ4-QBvNFhwb4zZcxGA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAMfPbcb-LhhTQZ0zZ2m-qNUe==wpUibLXZi9OHkFB=W=jE+QHA@mail.gmail.com>

I ended up adding word-wrap support directly to my code-generation:
https://github.com/SamuelMarks/doctrans/commit/6147b21e168b66623aa1be95cb38b1969daa5147

Samuel Marks
Charity <https://sydneyscientific.org> | consultancy <https://offscale.io>
| open-source <https://github.com/offscale> | LinkedIn
<https://linkedin.com/in/samuelmarks>


On Wed, Jan 20, 2021 at 2:05 PM Samuel Marks <samuelmarks at gmail.com> wrote:

> I've written a library that works at the ast level. Sometimes the
> generated output goes over the linter line length limit.
>
>
> "foo_bar_can_haz_foo_bar_can_haz_foo_bar_can_haz_foo_bar_can_haz_foo_bar_can_haz_foo_bar_can_haz"
>
> How do I generate this kind of code instead?
>
> "foo_bar_can_haz_foo_bar_can_haz_foo_bar_can_haz_"
> "foo_bar_can_haz_foo_bar_can_haz_foo_bar_can_haz"
>
> (also happy with the \ and parenthesised variants) [cross-posted:
> stackoverflow.com/q/65800797]
>
> The only thing I can think of doing?retaining support for 3.6, 3.7,
> 3.8, 3.9, and 3.10a4?is to contribute to both astor and the builtin
> ast.unparse?
>

From mstfmoradian at gmail.com  Fri Jan 22 09:29:50 2021
From: mstfmoradian at gmail.com (Mostafa Moradian)
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 2021 15:29:50 +0100
Subject: Django-saml2-auth 3.0.0 Released
Message-ID: <CAH46fs3VdHdJkvCmiP3_z+kvOiUt6sSEa=_Z2wem+kr1ePEtzg@mail.gmail.com>

Hello,

I am pleased to announce the release of django-saml2-auth, which includes
71 commits, 92 lines of commit messages and 3 separate reviews and
reviewers.

The project is originally developed by Li Fang <https://github.com/fangli>,
but is forked and currently maintained by Mostafa Moradian <
https://github.com/mostafa> and sponsored by Load Impact AB (https://k6.io).

This release is backward incompatible with older versions: 1.x.x and 2.x.x,
and includes heavy refactoring, improving code readability (docstrings,
annotations, ...), tests, new shiny features and the like. You can read
more about the details in the PR description:
https://github.com/loadimpact/django-saml2-auth/pull/14.

The biggest change so far was adding tests and enabling GitHub Actions as
CI, plus the introduction of SP-initiated SSO. The exception and error
handling is also greatly improved.

Mostafa Moradian.

Project homepage: https://github.com/loadimpact/django-saml2-auth

P.S. It is not published to pypi yet, because of naming issues with the
original package.

From ast at invalid  Sat Jan 23 02:54:18 2021
From: ast at invalid (ast)
Date: Sat, 23 Jan 2021 08:54:18 +0100
Subject: list() strange behaviour
In-Reply-To: <rroagh$qu7$1@gioia.aioe.org>
References: <rroagh$qu7$1@gioia.aioe.org>
Message-ID: <600bd62a$0$4029$426a74cc@news.free.fr>

Le 20/12/2020 ? 21:00, danilob a ?crit?:

> 
> 
> b = ((x[0] for x in a))
> 

There is a useless pair of parenthesis

b = (x[0] for x in a)

b is a GENERATOR expression

first list(b) calls next method on b repetedly until b is empty.
So it provides the "content" of b

second list(b) provides nothing since b is empty
(there is no reset on generators)





From tjreedy at udel.edu  Sat Jan 23 09:43:45 2021
From: tjreedy at udel.edu (Terry Reedy)
Date: Sat, 23 Jan 2021 09:43:45 -0500
Subject: list() strange behaviour
In-Reply-To: <600bd62a$0$4029$426a74cc@news.free.fr>
References: <rroagh$qu7$1@gioia.aioe.org>
 <600bd62a$0$4029$426a74cc@news.free.fr>
Message-ID: <ruhcn3$9kf$1@ciao.gmane.io>

On 1/23/2021 2:54 AM, Unknown wrote:
> Le 20/12/2020 ? 21:00, danilob a ?crit?:
> 
>>
>>
>> b = ((x[0] for x in a))
>>
> 
> There is a useless pair of parenthesis
> 
> b = (x[0] for x in a)
> 
> b is a GENERATOR expression
> 
> first list(b) calls next method on b repetedly until b is empty.
> So it provides the "content" of b
> 
> second list(b) provides nothing since b is empty
> (there is no reset on generators)

There is for generator *functions*, which some people also call 
generators.  For generator expressions, the interpreter makes an 
anonymous generator function, calls it, keeping the returned generator. 
  It deletes the function and 'returns' the generator as the value of 
the function.

If one want to iterator twice, write a proper named generator function 
with a docstring.  In this case

def gf(a):
    "Return a generator that yields the first item of each sequence in a."
     for x in a:
         yield x[0]

-- 
Terry Jan Reedy



From avigross at verizon.net  Sat Jan 23 12:20:12 2021
From: avigross at verizon.net (Avi Gross)
Date: Sat, 23 Jan 2021 12:20:12 -0500
Subject: list() strange behaviour
In-Reply-To: <600bd62a$0$4029$426a74cc@news.free.fr>
References: <rroagh$qu7$1@gioia.aioe.org>
 <600bd62a$0$4029$426a74cc@news.free.fr>
Message-ID: <034101d6f1ac$02551e50$06ff5af0$@verizon.net>

I am wondering how hard it would be to let some generators be resettable?

I mean if you have a generator with initial conditions that change as it
progresses, could it cache away those initial conditions and upon some
signal, simply reset them? Objects of many kinds can be set up with say a
reinit() method. 

I am not saying Python needs such a language change for generators as in
many programs you could just recreate a new instance of a generator. But
there may be places where by the time the generator is used, the original is
not known. Or, there are places where you want to lengthen something to
match another by repeatedly copying the same sequence as many times as
needed. If a generator finishes, you want it to restart with the same
sequence until you stop asking.

This is just a thought, not a request for such a feature. 

-----Original Message-----
From: Python-list <python-list-bounces+avigross=verizon.net at python.org> On
Behalf Of ast
Sent: Saturday, January 23, 2021 2:54 AM
To: python-list at python.org
Subject: Re: list() strange behaviour

Le 20/12/2020 ? 21:00, danilob a ?crit?:

> 
> 
> b = ((x[0] for x in a))
> 

There is a useless pair of parenthesis

b = (x[0] for x in a)

b is a GENERATOR expression

first list(b) calls next method on b repetedly until b is empty.
So it provides the "content" of b

second list(b) provides nothing since b is empty (there is no reset on
generators)




--
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list


From cs at cskk.id.au  Sat Jan 23 16:47:48 2021
From: cs at cskk.id.au (Cameron Simpson)
Date: Sun, 24 Jan 2021 08:47:48 +1100
Subject: list() strange behaviour
In-Reply-To: <034101d6f1ac$02551e50$06ff5af0$@verizon.net>
References: <034101d6f1ac$02551e50$06ff5af0$@verizon.net>
Message-ID: <YAyZhOg5i8SQZxE0@cskk.homeip.net>

On 23Jan2021 12:20, Avi Gross <avigross at verizon.net> wrote:
>I am wondering how hard it would be to let some generators be resettable?
>
>I mean if you have a generator with initial conditions that change as it
>progresses, could it cache away those initial conditions and upon some
>signal, simply reset them? Objects of many kinds can be set up with say a
>reinit() method.

On reflection I'd do this with a class:

    class G:
        def __init__(self, length):
            self.length = length
            self.pos = 0

        def __next__(self):
            pos = self.pos
            if pos >= length:
                raise StopIteration()
            self.pos += 1
            return pos

        def __iter__(self):
            return self

then:

    g = G(9)
    for x in g:
        print(x)
        if x == 5:
            g.pos = 7

You could either fiddle the iterable class instance attributes directly 
as above or provide a reset method of some kind.

If you don't need to fiddle/reset you can just write:

    for x in G(9):

The two step above is so we have "g" to hand to do the fiddling.

Cheers,
Cameron Simpson <cs at cskk.id.au>

From rosuav at gmail.com  Sat Jan 23 16:55:10 2021
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Sun, 24 Jan 2021 08:55:10 +1100
Subject: list() strange behaviour
In-Reply-To: <YAyZhOg5i8SQZxE0@cskk.homeip.net>
References: <034101d6f1ac$02551e50$06ff5af0$@verizon.net>
 <YAyZhOg5i8SQZxE0@cskk.homeip.net>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmq_938bMg37ckVL3+qWvF5wvyBNbh4OJnjaftW7RWLjZg@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Jan 24, 2021 at 8:49 AM Cameron Simpson <cs at cskk.id.au> wrote:
>
> On 23Jan2021 12:20, Avi Gross <avigross at verizon.net> wrote:
> >I am wondering how hard it would be to let some generators be resettable?
> >
> >I mean if you have a generator with initial conditions that change as it
> >progresses, could it cache away those initial conditions and upon some
> >signal, simply reset them? Objects of many kinds can be set up with say a
> >reinit() method.
>
> On reflection I'd do this with a class:
>
>     class G:
>         def __init__(self, length):
>             self.length = length
>             self.pos = 0
>
>         def __next__(self):
>             pos = self.pos
>             if pos >= length:
>                 raise StopIteration()
>             self.pos += 1
>             return pos
>
>         def __iter__(self):
>             return self
>

Yep, or more conveniently:

class G:
    def __init__(self, length):
        self.length = length
        self.pos = 0
    def __iter__(self):
        while self.pos < self.length:
            yield self.pos
            self.pos += 1

The only significant part is the fact that your generator function has
*external* state, which is what allows you to manipulate it. Generator
functions are still way cleaner for most purposes than handwritten
iterator classes.

ChrisA

From barry at barrys-emacs.org  Sat Jan 23 17:54:24 2021
From: barry at barrys-emacs.org (Barry)
Date: Sat, 23 Jan 2021 22:54:24 +0000
Subject: list() strange behaviour
In-Reply-To: <034101d6f1ac$02551e50$06ff5af0$@verizon.net>
References: <034101d6f1ac$02551e50$06ff5af0$@verizon.net>
Message-ID: <58E4A594-AF4B-4056-A25A-41D8F2D9942F@barrys-emacs.org>



> On 23 Jan 2021, at 17:23, Avi Gross via Python-list <python-list at python.org> wrote:
> 
> ?I am wondering how hard it would be to let some generators be resettable?

That is generally thought to be a bad thing in OOD.
Classes that reset are usually a code smell and often a source of bugs.

Why not just assign a new generate into the variable that is used to access
the generator. The avoids the need for the complications of reset logic.

Barry


> 
> I mean if you have a generator with initial conditions that change as it
> progresses, could it cache away those initial conditions and upon some
> signal, simply reset them? Objects of many kinds can be set up with say a
> reinit() method. 
> 
> I am not saying Python needs such a language change for generators as in
> many programs you could just recreate a new instance of a generator. But
> there may be places where by the time the generator is used, the original is
> not known. Or, there are places where you want to lengthen something to
> match another by repeatedly copying the same sequence as many times as
> needed. If a generator finishes, you want it to restart with the same
> sequence until you stop asking.
> 
> This is just a thought, not a request for such a feature. 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Python-list <python-list-bounces+avigross=verizon.net at python.org> On
> Behalf Of ast
> Sent: Saturday, January 23, 2021 2:54 AM
> To: python-list at python.org
> Subject: Re: list() strange behaviour
> 
>> Le 20/12/2020 ? 21:00, danilob a ?crit :
>> b = ((x[0] for x in a))
> 
> There is a useless pair of parenthesis
> 
> b = (x[0] for x in a)
> 
> b is a GENERATOR expression
> 
> first list(b) calls next method on b repetedly until b is empty.
> So it provides the "content" of b
> 
> second list(b) provides nothing since b is empty (there is no reset on
> generators)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> --
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
> 
> -- 
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list


From nospam at please.ty  Sun Jan 24 04:49:34 2021
From: nospam at please.ty (jak)
Date: Sun, 24 Jan 2021 10:49:34 +0100
Subject: list() strange behaviour
References: <rroagh$qu7$1@gioia.aioe.org>
Message-ID: <rujfre$4ak$1@gioia.aioe.org>

Il 20/12/2020 21:00, danilob ha scritto:
> Hi,
> I'm an absolute beginner in Python (and in English too ;-)
> Running this code:
> 
> 
> --------------
> # Python 3.9.0
> 
> a = [[1, 2, 0, 3, 0],
>  ???? [0, 4, 5, 0, 6],
>  ???? [7, 0, 8, 0, 9],
>  ???? [2, 3, 0, 0, 1],
>  ???? [0, 0, 1, 8, 0]]
> 
> 
> b = ((x[0] for x in a))
> 
> print(list(b))
> print(list(b))
> ---------------
> 
> 
> I get this output:
> 
> [1, 0, 7, 2, 0]
> []
> 
> 
> I don't know why the second print() output shows an empty list.
> Is it possible that the first print() call might have changed the value 
> of "b"?
> 
> Thank you in advance.

You should see a generator as a container emptying while you are reading 
it, so you should recreate it every time:

################################
# Python 3.9.0

a = [[1, 2, 0, 3, 0],
      [0, 4, 5, 0, 6],
      [7, 0, 8, 0, 9],
      [2, 3, 0, 0, 1],
      [0, 0, 1, 8, 0]]


b = lambda : (x[0] for x in a)

print(list(b()))
print(list(b()))

output:
[1, 0, 7, 2, 0]
[1, 0, 7, 2, 0]
################################

From martin.schoon at gmail.com  Sun Jan 24 16:43:54 2021
From: martin.schoon at gmail.com (Martin =?UTF-8?Q?Sch=C3=B6=C3=B6n?=)
Date: 24 Jan 2021 21:43:54 GMT
Subject: Jupyter notebooks to A4 (again)
Message-ID: <i7680qFm1ljU1@mid.individual.net>

Hello all,

Some years ago I asked about exporting notebooks to pdf in
A4 rather than US Letter. I got help, rather detailed
instructions from you in general and Piet von Oostrum in
particular. Following the advice helped and I was happy.

Now it does not work any longer:

         nbconvert failed: A4article

I am stumped. I have not changed anything and all
looks OK.

Today I tried up-dating all things Python and Jupyter
but that did not help.

I have also tried removing the A4 stuff and after 
restarting Jupyter I can export to PDF and get US Letter
paper format.

A quick and (obviously) not very clever internet search
yielded nothing helpful.

Any ideas?

/Martin

From bluebox03 at gmail.com  Mon Jan 25 09:35:23 2021
From: bluebox03 at gmail.com (tommy yama)
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 2021 23:35:23 +0900
Subject: Jupyter notebooks to A4 (again)
In-Reply-To: <i7680qFm1ljU1@mid.individual.net>
References: <i7680qFm1ljU1@mid.individual.net>
Message-ID: <CANevj7uBK-N7ZTMUikGjG8GC-zaL-0auLO+OhmGWCtMN7nrK1A@mail.gmail.com>

Hi Martin,

I noticed that i did use the same ,
formats are mentioned in git already.

https://github.com/jupyter/nbconvert

On Mon, Jan 25, 2021 at 6:47 AM Martin Sch??n <martin.schoon at gmail.com>
wrote:

> Hello all,
>
> Some years ago I asked about exporting notebooks to pdf in
> A4 rather than US Letter. I got help, rather detailed
> instructions from you in general and Piet von Oostrum in
> particular. Following the advice helped and I was happy.
>
> Now it does not work any longer:
>
>          nbconvert failed: A4article
>
> I am stumped. I have not changed anything and all
> looks OK.
>
> Today I tried up-dating all things Python and Jupyter
> but that did not help.
>
> I have also tried removing the A4 stuff and after
> restarting Jupyter I can export to PDF and get US Letter
> paper format.
>
> A quick and (obviously) not very clever internet search
> yielded nothing helpful.
>
> Any ideas?
>
> /Martin
> --
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
>

From gri6507 at gmail.com  Tue Jan 26 09:35:48 2021
From: gri6507 at gmail.com (Paul Grinberg)
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2021 06:35:48 -0800 (PST)
Subject: c bindings with non-python thread callback while python exits
Message-ID: <5ad34f0c-7585-4035-a641-726d024de2b4n@googlegroups.com>

I have a C++ library (luckily with source code, so I know what's going on) to which I wrote c bindings. The library internally starts an event pthread which generates callbacks back into python. The c binding for processing these callbacks look like this (simplified for convenience):

PyGILState_STATE gstate;
gstate = PyGILState_Ensure();
PyObject_CallObject(cb, arglist);
PyGILState_Release(gstate);

This works perfectly while the python program using this c binding is running. However, when the program terminates normally and there happens to be one last callback underway, the c bindings hang. When viewed with GDB, I can see that the callback thread callstack looks like this:

futex_abstimed_wait_cancelable()
_pthread_cond_wait_common()
__pthread_cond_timedwait()
PyCOND_TIMEDWAIT()
take_gil()
PyEval_RestoreThread()
PyGILState_Ensure()
c_bindings_callback()
cpp_library_callback()

and the main thread callstack, which is where the python interpreter was running, looks like this

__pthread_clockjoin_ex ()
std::thread::join()
cpp_library_static_singleton_class_destructor ()
__run_exit_handlers ()
__GI_exit ()
__libc_start_main ()
_start ()

in other words, the program hangs because the main thread is waiting for the event pthread to join, but that thread is stuck in a callback waiting for the GIL.

What is the right way to prevent this problem from happening?
Thank you in advance,
Paul.

P.S. I am running on Linux: ubuntu 18.04 with python 3.6.9, also reproduced with python 3.7.5, as well as ubuntu 20.04 with python 3.8.5

From mazyar.gh9 at gmail.com  Tue Jan 26 04:01:59 2021
From: mazyar.gh9 at gmail.com (Maziar Ghasemi)
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2021 12:31:59 +0330
Subject: help
In-Reply-To: <CAOistn9K9rTh=tV69AGB9mupTtxGY4PVtJaSG0J=Er76vgyC5Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAOistn9K9rTh=tV69AGB9mupTtxGY4PVtJaSG0J=Er76vgyC5Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAOistn-d9Jj=LM5RfJ=p0vv=anaJcJ3jgwi9a7Q5Y17K4hzPBA@mail.gmail.com>

Hi
help me to repair this erorr:
Warning: translation file 'git_en_US' could not be loaded.
Using default.
and download python39.dll

On 1/26/21, Maziar Ghasemi <mazyar.gh9 at gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi
> help me to repair this erorr:
> Warning: translation file 'git_en_US' could not be loaded.
> Using default.
> and download python39.dll
> --
> mazyar ghasemi
> MS student of Razi university
>


-- 
mazyar ghasemi
MS student of Razi university

From tjreedy at udel.edu  Tue Jan 26 12:05:12 2021
From: tjreedy at udel.edu (Terry Reedy)
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2021 12:05:12 -0500
Subject: help
In-Reply-To: <CAOistn-d9Jj=LM5RfJ=p0vv=anaJcJ3jgwi9a7Q5Y17K4hzPBA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAOistn9K9rTh=tV69AGB9mupTtxGY4PVtJaSG0J=Er76vgyC5Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAOistn-d9Jj=LM5RfJ=p0vv=anaJcJ3jgwi9a7Q5Y17K4hzPBA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <rupi4a$fsq$1@ciao.gmane.io>

On 1/26/2021 4:01 AM, Maziar Ghasemi wrote:
> Hi
> help me to repair this erorr:
> Warning: translation file 'git_en_US' could not be loaded.
> Using default.
> and download python39.dll

Please do not repost, especially the same day.

> On 1/26/21, Maziar Ghasemi <mazyar.gh9 at gmail.com> wrote:
>> Hi
>> help me to repair this erorr:
>> Warning: translation file 'git_en_US' could not be loaded.
>> Using default.
>> and download python39.dll

You ran some python software that wants a missing translation file.  Ask 
the help forum for that software.

If you ran Eric IDE, perhaps
https://tracker.die-offenbachs.homelinux.org/eric/issue293
will help.  I found this by searching the web (google) for 'git_en_us'.

-- 
Terry Jan Reedy


From ethan at stoneleaf.us  Tue Jan 26 12:30:15 2021
From: ethan at stoneleaf.us (Ethan Furman)
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2021 09:30:15 -0800
Subject: help
In-Reply-To: <rupi4a$fsq$1@ciao.gmane.io>
References: <CAOistn9K9rTh=tV69AGB9mupTtxGY4PVtJaSG0J=Er76vgyC5Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAOistn-d9Jj=LM5RfJ=p0vv=anaJcJ3jgwi9a7Q5Y17K4hzPBA@mail.gmail.com>
 <rupi4a$fsq$1@ciao.gmane.io>
Message-ID: <d58c03a5-f753-a5fe-777c-80097e3df865@stoneleaf.us>

On 1/26/21 9:05 AM, Terry Reedy wrote:
> On 1/26/2021 4:01 AM, Maziar Ghasemi wrote:

>> ...
> 
> Please do not repost, especially the same day.

Maziar Ghasemi appears to be a new user, and had to sign up to the Python List mailing list.  Are you seeing his request 
twice because you use gmane?

--
~Ethan~

From barry at barrys-emacs.org  Tue Jan 26 16:25:04 2021
From: barry at barrys-emacs.org (Barry Scott)
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2021 21:25:04 +0000
Subject: c bindings with non-python thread callback while python exits
In-Reply-To: <5ad34f0c-7585-4035-a641-726d024de2b4n@googlegroups.com>
References: <5ad34f0c-7585-4035-a641-726d024de2b4n@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <D315D024-2901-4899-B89B-140D3D630618@barrys-emacs.org>



> On 26 Jan 2021, at 14:35, Paul Grinberg <gri6507 at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> I have a C++ library (luckily with source code, so I know what's going on) to which I wrote c bindings. The library internally starts an event pthread which generates callbacks back into python. The c binding for processing these callbacks look like this (simplified for convenience):
> 
> PyGILState_STATE gstate;
> gstate = PyGILState_Ensure();
> PyObject_CallObject(cb, arglist);
> PyGILState_Release(gstate);
> 
> This works perfectly while the python program using this c binding is running. However, when the program terminates normally and there happens to be one last callback underway, the c bindings hang. When viewed with GDB, I can see that the callback thread callstack looks like this:
> 
> futex_abstimed_wait_cancelable()
> _pthread_cond_wait_common()
> __pthread_cond_timedwait()
> PyCOND_TIMEDWAIT()
> take_gil()
> PyEval_RestoreThread()
> PyGILState_Ensure()
> c_bindings_callback()
> cpp_library_callback()
> 
> and the main thread callstack, which is where the python interpreter was running, looks like this
> 
> __pthread_clockjoin_ex ()
> std::thread::join()
> cpp_library_static_singleton_class_destructor ()
> __run_exit_handlers ()
> __GI_exit ()
> __libc_start_main ()
> _start ()
> 
> in other words, the program hangs because the main thread is waiting for the event pthread to join, but that thread is stuck in a callback waiting for the GIL.
> 
> What is the right way to prevent this problem from happening?

As you say you have dead locked.

My guess is that you have to shutdown your extension before you quit python.

You might find pycxx interesting if you are wrapping C++ code for use with python.

http://cxx.sourceforge.net/

Barry



> Thank you in advance,
> Paul.
> 
> P.S. I am running on Linux: ubuntu 18.04 with python 3.6.9, also reproduced with python 3.7.5, as well as ubuntu 20.04 with python 3.8.5
> -- 
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
> 


From tmrsg11 at gmail.com  Tue Jan 26 14:00:00 2021
From: tmrsg11 at gmail.com (C W)
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2021 14:00:00 -0500
Subject: How do you debug in Python? Coming from a Matlab and R user. I'm
 already aware of pdb.
Message-ID: <CAE2FW2kjBohvUzKu8OKhyA4xoSaQWQfnqZ9C9oha05kh7B6zLQ@mail.gmail.com>

Hello everyone,

I'm a long time Matlab and R user working on data science. How do you
troubleshooting/debugging in Python?

I ran into this impossible situation to debug:
class person:
def __init__(self, id, created_at, name, attend_date, distance):
"""Create a new `person`.
"""
self._id = id
self.created_at = created_at
self.name = name
self.attend_date = attend_date
self.distance = distance

@classmethod
def get_person(self, employee):
"""Find and return a person by.
"""
return person(employee['created_at'],
employee['id'],
employee['name'],
employee['attend_date'],
employee['distance']
)

I got an error message saying id was 'str', but expecting 'int'.

In R, I use the interactive IDE with console. Wherever the error interrupts
the code, I just evaluate that line in the console. Very convenient!

If this error was in R, I would have tried:
> self._id = 123

But, I can't do that here! What do I do? Do I HAVE TO instantiate an object
first? It's not  convenient if I have 10 of these objects around. I need to
instantiate 10 objects.

I know hardcore computer scientists would tell me about Python debugger. R
also has one, but nobody ever uses it. I don't find them user-friendly!

Thanks a lot,

Mike

From grant.b.edwards at gmail.com  Tue Jan 26 19:16:03 2021
From: grant.b.edwards at gmail.com (Grant Edwards)
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2021 00:16:03 -0000 (UTC)
Subject: How do you debug in Python? Coming from a Matlab and R user.
 I'm already aware of pdb.
References: <CAE2FW2kjBohvUzKu8OKhyA4xoSaQWQfnqZ9C9oha05kh7B6zLQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <ruqbc3$4h5$1@ciao.gmane.io>

On 2021-01-26, C W <tmrsg11 at gmail.com> wrote:

> How do you troubleshooting/debugging in Python?

Mostly I read exception trace and read the code and think about it.

If that doesn't work, I add some print() or syslog() calls.

If I really get stuck, I try to write as small a program as possible
that demonstrates the problem.

> I know hardcore computer scientists would tell me about Python debugger.

I've been writing Python for 20+ years. I've never tried a debugger.

--
Grant


From skip.montanaro at gmail.com  Tue Jan 26 19:52:07 2021
From: skip.montanaro at gmail.com (Skip Montanaro)
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2021 18:52:07 -0600
Subject: How do you debug in Python? Coming from a Matlab and R user. I'm
 already aware of pdb.
In-Reply-To: <ruqbc3$4h5$1@ciao.gmane.io>
References: <CAE2FW2kjBohvUzKu8OKhyA4xoSaQWQfnqZ9C9oha05kh7B6zLQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <ruqbc3$4h5$1@ciao.gmane.io>
Message-ID: <CANc-5UyFDVx-YUtvNkX15EYCyWAkENrwW8g0_Vm5r3a2gjwsEA@mail.gmail.com>

CW> How do you troubleshooting/debugging in Python?

GE> Mostly I read exception trace and read the code and think about it.
GE> If that doesn't work, I add some print() or syslog() calls.

CW> I know hardcore computer scientists would tell me about Python debugger.

GE> I've been writing Python for 20+ years. I've never tried a debugger.

Agree with Grant on these points. I certainly use gdb to debug C code
(like the interpreter), but for Python code, tracebacks and print
statements pretty much take care of things. I know pdb has been around
for a long while and many people like IDEs, but I've not generally
found them all that useful. I'm stuck in the 90s I guess.

Skip

From cs at cskk.id.au  Tue Jan 26 19:57:35 2021
From: cs at cskk.id.au (Cameron Simpson)
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2021 11:57:35 +1100
Subject: How do you debug in Python? Coming from a Matlab and R user. I'm
 already aware of pdb.
In-Reply-To: <CAE2FW2kjBohvUzKu8OKhyA4xoSaQWQfnqZ9C9oha05kh7B6zLQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAE2FW2kjBohvUzKu8OKhyA4xoSaQWQfnqZ9C9oha05kh7B6zLQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <YBC6f7WVFMdgRlcj@cskk.homeip.net>

On 26Jan2021 14:00, C W <tmrsg11 at gmail.com> wrote:
>I'm a long time Matlab and R user working on data science. How do you
>troubleshooting/debugging in Python?
>
>I ran into this impossible situation to debug:
>class person:
>def __init__(self, id, created_at, name, attend_date, distance):
>"""Create a new `person`.
>"""

Your mailer has removed all the indenting. See if it has a mode for 
code.  Often just making sure all the code is itself indented will do, 
eg:

    some indented
        code here

>I got an error message saying id was 'str', but expecting 'int'.

There should have been a complete traceback with that error, showing 
which line triggered the exception and how it was called.

Here, we don't know from your description what happened or where.

>If this error was in R, I would have tried:
>> self._id = 123

Well, provided "self" already existed, that would work in Python but 
tell you almost nothing, because any variable may reference a value of 
any type. (Python variables are not typed, but the values _are_.)

>But, I can't do that here! What do I do? Do I HAVE TO instantiate an 
>object
>first?

Well, "self" is the instantiaited object. The __init__ function does 
more setup (completing what you might call "normal" instantiation).

>It's not  convenient if I have 10 of these objects around. I need to
>instantiate 10 objects.

Your environment isn't clear to me.

>I know hardcore computer scientists would tell me about Python debugger. R
>also has one, but nobody ever uses it. I don't find them user-friendly!

Me either. Like grant, i fall into the "look at the stack trace and 
think a bit, then put in print() calls or similar to show me whether 
things are what I expect them to be when the code runs".

I actually have a Computer Science degree, but I think there are 
definition those who like debuggers and those who tend not to. I'm in 
the latter camp. Preferences like that affact how you _choose_ to debug.

Usually I have the code in a file in one window and a command line in 
another, and go:

    python my_code_file.py ...

to test when debugging.

Cheers,
Cameron Simpson <cs at cskk.id.au>

From wrw at mac.com  Tue Jan 26 20:28:31 2021
From: wrw at mac.com (William Ray Wing)
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2021 20:28:31 -0500
Subject: How do you debug in Python? Coming from a Matlab and R user. I'm
 already aware of pdb.
In-Reply-To: <CAE2FW2kjBohvUzKu8OKhyA4xoSaQWQfnqZ9C9oha05kh7B6zLQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAE2FW2kjBohvUzKu8OKhyA4xoSaQWQfnqZ9C9oha05kh7B6zLQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <65AEDEA1-1A99-4FB9-8527-9447093F0856@mac.com>



> On Jan 26, 2021, at 2:00 PM, C W <tmrsg11 at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> Hello everyone,
> 
> I'm a long time Matlab and R user working on data science. How do you
> troubleshooting/debugging in Python?
> 

Another approach is to run the code in an IDE.  I happen to use Wing, but that is a coincidence.  But almost ANY IDE will let you set a break point, then single-step through your code starting at the break point and examine the values of your variables at each step.  Sometimes this is an awfully big hammer for what is a head-slapping mistake.  But it has never failed me.

Good luck,
Bill


From ed at leafe.com  Tue Jan 26 21:41:33 2021
From: ed at leafe.com (Ed Leafe)
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2021 20:41:33 -0600
Subject: How do you debug in Python? Coming from a Matlab and R user. I'm
 already aware of pdb.
In-Reply-To: <ruqbc3$4h5$1@ciao.gmane.io>
References: <CAE2FW2kjBohvUzKu8OKhyA4xoSaQWQfnqZ9C9oha05kh7B6zLQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <ruqbc3$4h5$1@ciao.gmane.io>
Message-ID: <9B50E52F-F565-4C78-B736-A7589DE5A433@leafe.com>

On Jan 26, 2021, at 18:16, Grant Edwards <grant.b.edwards at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
>> How do you troubleshooting/debugging in Python?
> 
> Mostly I read exception trace and read the code and think about it.
> 
> If that doesn't work, I add some print() or syslog() calls.
> 
> If I really get stuck, I try to write as small a program as possible
> that demonstrates the problem.

I do the first two, but if I get really stuck, I use the pudb debugger (https://pypi.org/project/pudb/).

Using that, I can see all the locals, jump to any point in the stack and see the locals there, or shell into ipython if I need to run some quick code. For me, this is much faster than trying to write an additional program that is close enough to the problem code to be useful.

-- Ed Leafe







From tmrsg11 at gmail.com  Tue Jan 26 22:37:30 2021
From: tmrsg11 at gmail.com (C W)
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2021 22:37:30 -0500
Subject: How do you debug in Python? Coming from a Matlab and R user. I'm
 already aware of pdb.
In-Reply-To: <9B50E52F-F565-4C78-B736-A7589DE5A433@leafe.com>
References: <CAE2FW2kjBohvUzKu8OKhyA4xoSaQWQfnqZ9C9oha05kh7B6zLQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <ruqbc3$4h5$1@ciao.gmane.io> <9B50E52F-F565-4C78-B736-A7589DE5A433@leafe.com>
Message-ID: <CAE2FW2nNP2GfM7mJM8aTg9-HCKG6iCEvs46L8R8PdC1N-S0xhQ@mail.gmail.com>

Thanks for your replies. My apologies for the poor indent. I'm rewriting
the code below.

class NEODatabase:
def __init__(self, id, created_at, name, attend_date, distance):
self._id = id
self.created_at = created_at
self.name = name
self.attend_date = attend_date
self.distance = distance

@classmethod
def get_person(self, employee):
return PERSONDatabase(employee['created_at'],
employee['id'],
employee['name'],
employee['attend_date'],
employee['distance'])

I have a naive question. How do I use traceback or trace the stack? In
particular, I'm using VS Code with Python interactive console.

Say, I want to print the value of employee['name']. Can I do it? My
understanding is that these classes are just "skeletons". I must create an
instance, assign values, then test?

Thanks so much,

Mike

On Tue, Jan 26, 2021 at 9:55 PM Ed Leafe <ed at leafe.com> wrote:

> On Jan 26, 2021, at 18:16, Grant Edwards <grant.b.edwards at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >
> >> How do you troubleshooting/debugging in Python?
> >
> > Mostly I read exception trace and read the code and think about it.
> >
> > If that doesn't work, I add some print() or syslog() calls.
> >
> > If I really get stuck, I try to write as small a program as possible
> > that demonstrates the problem.
>
> I do the first two, but if I get really stuck, I use the pudb debugger (
> https://pypi.org/project/pudb/).
>
> Using that, I can see all the locals, jump to any point in the stack and
> see the locals there, or shell into ipython if I need to run some quick
> code. For me, this is much faster than trying to write an additional
> program that is close enough to the problem code to be useful.
>
> -- Ed Leafe
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
>

From grant.b.edwards at gmail.com  Tue Jan 26 22:30:27 2021
From: grant.b.edwards at gmail.com (Grant Edwards)
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2021 03:30:27 -0000 (UTC)
Subject: How do you debug in Python? Coming from a Matlab and R user.
 I'm already aware of pdb.
References: <CAE2FW2kjBohvUzKu8OKhyA4xoSaQWQfnqZ9C9oha05kh7B6zLQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <YBC6f7WVFMdgRlcj@cskk.homeip.net>
Message-ID: <ruqmoj$7hk$1@ciao.gmane.io>

On 2021-01-27, Cameron Simpson <cs at cskk.id.au> wrote:

> Me either. Like grant, i fall into the "look at the stack trace and 
> think a bit, then put in print() calls or similar to show me whether 
> things are what I expect them to be when the code runs".
>
> I actually have a Computer Science degree, but I think there are 
> definition those who like debuggers and those who tend not to.

Me too (MS in CSci), but I can't remember the last time I used a
debugger. It may help that I "grow" my apps. I don't sit down, write a
3000 line program, and then try to debug the program. That just
doesn't work. It doesn't matter how much UML you can point to if a
couple of your basic assumptions turned out to be wrong.

Write small funtions, and add small chunks of code, and test as you go
to make sure things work the way you thought they were going to. If it
used to work, you've only added 5 lines of code, and now it doesn't
work, it's usually not hard to figure out what's wrong.

And don't be afraid to refactor stuff when your original approach
starts to smell -- if you just keep going it will only get worse.

Source control can also be a lifesaver if you get really confused.

--
Grant




From drsalists at gmail.com  Tue Jan 26 23:13:48 2021
From: drsalists at gmail.com (Dan Stromberg)
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2021 20:13:48 -0800
Subject: How do you debug in Python? Coming from a Matlab and R user. I'm
 already aware of pdb.
In-Reply-To: <CAE2FW2kjBohvUzKu8OKhyA4xoSaQWQfnqZ9C9oha05kh7B6zLQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAE2FW2kjBohvUzKu8OKhyA4xoSaQWQfnqZ9C9oha05kh7B6zLQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAGGBd_ox3DKsOXVRivN9OkVymX-EG9QYk0kKCKxNGe0awYufmw@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Jan 26, 2021 at 4:01 PM C W <tmrsg11 at gmail.com> wrote:

> Hello everyone,
>
> I'm a long time Matlab and R user working on data science. How do you
> troubleshooting/debugging in Python?
>

I frequently read tracebacks and think about what's up in the code.

I also often add print functions or logging - empiricism often beats
theorizing when the problems are weird.

And once in a while I will use pudb - it's probably a pretty good fit for a
vim user like me, both being curses-based.  pdb is sad.  There are other
debuggers for Python:
https://wiki.python.org/moin/PythonDebuggingTools

From drsalists at gmail.com  Tue Jan 26 23:17:30 2021
From: drsalists at gmail.com (Dan Stromberg)
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2021 20:17:30 -0800
Subject: How do you debug in Python? Coming from a Matlab and R user. I'm
 already aware of pdb.
In-Reply-To: <CAGGBd_ox3DKsOXVRivN9OkVymX-EG9QYk0kKCKxNGe0awYufmw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAE2FW2kjBohvUzKu8OKhyA4xoSaQWQfnqZ9C9oha05kh7B6zLQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAGGBd_ox3DKsOXVRivN9OkVymX-EG9QYk0kKCKxNGe0awYufmw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAGGBd_p6eekBEKv56vy=z99TgU0_31i5sRAGuaapYoCoTEg5yg@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Jan 26, 2021 at 8:13 PM Dan Stromberg <drsalists at gmail.com> wrote:

>
> On Tue, Jan 26, 2021 at 4:01 PM C W <tmrsg11 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Hello everyone,
>>
>> I'm a long time Matlab and R user working on data science. How do you
>> troubleshooting/debugging in Python?
>>
>
> I frequently read tracebacks and think about what's up in the code.
>
> I also often add print functions or logging - empiricism often beats
> theorizing when the problems are weird.
>
> And once in a while I will use pudb - it's probably a pretty good fit for
> a vim user like me, both being curses-based.  pdb is sad.  There are other
> debuggers for Python:
> https://wiki.python.org/moin/PythonDebuggingTools
>

BTW, there's a new tool I haven't tried yet, that sounds pretty
interesting, especially for newcomers: It's called "friendly traceback" and
can be found at https://pypi.org/project/friendly-traceback/

Oh, and of course google search is a terrific tool for deciphering error
messages.

From torriem at gmail.com  Wed Jan 27 00:07:39 2021
From: torriem at gmail.com (Michael Torrie)
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2021 22:07:39 -0700
Subject: How do you debug in Python? Coming from a Matlab and R user. I'm
 already aware of pdb.
In-Reply-To: <CAE2FW2nNP2GfM7mJM8aTg9-HCKG6iCEvs46L8R8PdC1N-S0xhQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAE2FW2kjBohvUzKu8OKhyA4xoSaQWQfnqZ9C9oha05kh7B6zLQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <ruqbc3$4h5$1@ciao.gmane.io> <9B50E52F-F565-4C78-B736-A7589DE5A433@leafe.com>
 <CAE2FW2nNP2GfM7mJM8aTg9-HCKG6iCEvs46L8R8PdC1N-S0xhQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <667489a6-2322-42f8-3feb-719c0adeb906@gmail.com>

On 1/26/21 8:37 PM, C W wrote:
> I have a naive question. How do I use traceback or trace the stack? In
> particular, I'm using VS Code with Python interactive console.

Show us the traceback here and we can help you interpret it.  Copy and
paste it from the VS Code console.

> Say, I want to print the value of employee['name']. Can I do it? 

Yes I would think so.

> My understanding is that these classes are just "skeletons". I must
> create an instance, assign values, then test?

Can't you just do something like this?

class NEODatabase:
    def __init__(self, id, created_at, name, attend_date, distance):
        self._id = id
        self.created_at = created_at
        self.name = name
        self.attend_date = attend_date
        self.distance = distance

    @classmethod
    def get_person(self, employee):
        print (employee['name'])

        return PERSONDatabase(employee['created_at'],
                              employee['id'],
                              employee['name'],
                              employee['attend_date'],
                              employee['distance'])


From torriem at gmail.com  Wed Jan 27 00:10:25 2021
From: torriem at gmail.com (Michael Torrie)
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2021 22:10:25 -0700
Subject: How do you debug in Python? Coming from a Matlab and R user. I'm
 already aware of pdb.
In-Reply-To: <ruqmoj$7hk$1@ciao.gmane.io>
References: <CAE2FW2kjBohvUzKu8OKhyA4xoSaQWQfnqZ9C9oha05kh7B6zLQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <YBC6f7WVFMdgRlcj@cskk.homeip.net> <ruqmoj$7hk$1@ciao.gmane.io>
Message-ID: <f28ba608-b802-8819-9f2a-43f2bad39ac1@gmail.com>

On 1/26/21 8:30 PM, Grant Edwards wrote:
> Me too (MS in CSci), but I can't remember the last time I used a
> debugger. 

I use a debugger frequency in C++, and sometimes C.  Even running a
debugger on an attached device like an Arduino is sometimes very useful.
Good debuggers let you do things like conditional breakpoints and watch
expressions.  Helpful for tracking down hard-to-find and less frequent
conditions.  Sure you could print stuff out, which I do, but sometimes
it's more convenient to do it with the debugger.


From tmrsg11 at gmail.com  Wed Jan 27 00:19:35 2021
From: tmrsg11 at gmail.com (C W)
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2021 00:19:35 -0500
Subject: How do you debug in Python? Coming from a Matlab and R user. I'm
 already aware of pdb.
In-Reply-To: <667489a6-2322-42f8-3feb-719c0adeb906@gmail.com>
References: <CAE2FW2kjBohvUzKu8OKhyA4xoSaQWQfnqZ9C9oha05kh7B6zLQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <ruqbc3$4h5$1@ciao.gmane.io> <9B50E52F-F565-4C78-B736-A7589DE5A433@leafe.com>
 <CAE2FW2nNP2GfM7mJM8aTg9-HCKG6iCEvs46L8R8PdC1N-S0xhQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <667489a6-2322-42f8-3feb-719c0adeb906@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAE2FW2kVX_7WUW4Eq77_bn1OGt8FMRwE1wjYQe-s_EH+AAWR6w@mail.gmail.com>

Hi Michael,
Here's the code again, class should be called PERSONDatabase, misspelled
earlier:
class PERSONDatabase:
   def __init__(self, id, created_at, name, attend_date, distance):
      self._id = id
      self.created_at = created_at
      self.name= name
      self.attend_date = attend_date
      self.distance = distance

   @classmethod
   def get_person(self, employee):
      return PERSONDatabase(employee['created_at'],
                                                employee['id'],
                                                employee['name'],
                                                employee['attend_date'],
                                                employee['distance'])

The PERSONDatabase class is called from main. This is the trace back I got
from the VS code:

Traceback (most recent call last):
   File "/Users/Mike/Documents/Mike/main.py", line 95, in <module>
      main()
   File "/Users/Mike/Documents/Mike/main.py", line 86, in main
      args = get_feed()
   File "/Users/Mike/DocumentsMike/main.py", line 32, in get_feed
      result = [PERSONatabase.get_person(raw_person) for raw_neo in
raw_objects]
   File "/Users/Mike/Documents/Mike/main.py", line 32, in <listcomp>
      result = [NEODatabase.get_person(raw_person) for raw_neo in
raw_objects]
   File "/Users/Mike/Documents/Mike/database.py", line 24, in get_person
      return PERSONDatabase(person['created_at'],
KeyError: 'created_at'

Thank you very much!

On Wed, Jan 27, 2021 at 12:10 AM Michael Torrie <torriem at gmail.com> wrote:

> On 1/26/21 8:37 PM, C W wrote:
> > I have a naive question. How do I use traceback or trace the stack? In
> > particular, I'm using VS Code with Python interactive console.
>
> Show us the traceback here and we can help you interpret it.  Copy and
> paste it from the VS Code console.
>
> > Say, I want to print the value of employee['name']. Can I do it?
>
> Yes I would think so.
>
> > My understanding is that these classes are just "skeletons". I must
> > create an instance, assign values, then test?
>
> Can't you just do something like this?
>
> class NEODatabase:
>     def __init__(self, id, created_at, name, attend_date, distance):
>         self._id = id
>         self.created_at = created_at
>         self.name = name
>         self.attend_date = attend_date
>         self.distance = distance
>
>     @classmethod
>     def get_person(self, employee):
>         print (employee['name'])
>
>         return PERSONDatabase(employee['created_at'],
>                               employee['id'],
>                               employee['name'],
>                               employee['attend_date'],
>                               employee['distance'])
>
> --
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
>

From joepareti54 at gmail.com  Wed Jan 27 00:52:10 2021
From: joepareti54 at gmail.com (joseph pareti)
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2021 06:52:10 +0100
Subject: How do you debug in Python? Coming from a Matlab and R user. I'm
 already aware of pdb.
In-Reply-To: <CAE2FW2kVX_7WUW4Eq77_bn1OGt8FMRwE1wjYQe-s_EH+AAWR6w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAE2FW2kjBohvUzKu8OKhyA4xoSaQWQfnqZ9C9oha05kh7B6zLQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <ruqbc3$4h5$1@ciao.gmane.io> <9B50E52F-F565-4C78-B736-A7589DE5A433@leafe.com>
 <CAE2FW2nNP2GfM7mJM8aTg9-HCKG6iCEvs46L8R8PdC1N-S0xhQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <667489a6-2322-42f8-3feb-719c0adeb906@gmail.com>
 <CAE2FW2kVX_7WUW4Eq77_bn1OGt8FMRwE1wjYQe-s_EH+AAWR6w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAN_spzi7_FLrojJa6pAoNh7qGU-4ua76ijL4TW6i406bCXD2yw@mail.gmail.com>

To debug python code I use spyder from the anaconda distribution

Am Mittwoch, 27. Januar 2021 schrieb C W <tmrsg11 at gmail.com>:

> Hi Michael,
> Here's the code again, class should be called PERSONDatabase, misspelled
> earlier:
> class PERSONDatabase:
>    def __init__(self, id, created_at, name, attend_date, distance):
>       self._id = id
>       self.created_at = created_at
>       self.name= name
>       self.attend_date = attend_date
>       self.distance = distance
>
>    @classmethod
>    def get_person(self, employee):
>       return PERSONDatabase(employee['created_at'],
>                                                 employee['id'],
>                                                 employee['name'],
>                                                 employee['attend_date'],
>                                                 employee['distance'])
>
> The PERSONDatabase class is called from main. This is the trace back I got
> from the VS code:
>
> Traceback (most recent call last):
>    File "/Users/Mike/Documents/Mike/main.py", line 95, in <module>
>       main()
>    File "/Users/Mike/Documents/Mike/main.py", line 86, in main
>       args = get_feed()
>    File "/Users/Mike/DocumentsMike/main.py", line 32, in get_feed
>       result = [PERSONatabase.get_person(raw_person) for raw_neo in
> raw_objects]
>    File "/Users/Mike/Documents/Mike/main.py", line 32, in <listcomp>
>       result = [NEODatabase.get_person(raw_person) for raw_neo in
> raw_objects]
>    File "/Users/Mike/Documents/Mike/database.py", line 24, in get_person
>       return PERSONDatabase(person['created_at'],
> KeyError: 'created_at'
>
> Thank you very much!
>
> On Wed, Jan 27, 2021 at 12:10 AM Michael Torrie <torriem at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > On 1/26/21 8:37 PM, C W wrote:
> > > I have a naive question. How do I use traceback or trace the stack? In
> > > particular, I'm using VS Code with Python interactive console.
> >
> > Show us the traceback here and we can help you interpret it.  Copy and
> > paste it from the VS Code console.
> >
> > > Say, I want to print the value of employee['name']. Can I do it?
> >
> > Yes I would think so.
> >
> > > My understanding is that these classes are just "skeletons". I must
> > > create an instance, assign values, then test?
> >
> > Can't you just do something like this?
> >
> > class NEODatabase:
> >     def __init__(self, id, created_at, name, attend_date, distance):
> >         self._id = id
> >         self.created_at = created_at
> >         self.name = name
> >         self.attend_date = attend_date
> >         self.distance = distance
> >
> >     @classmethod
> >     def get_person(self, employee):
> >         print (employee['name'])
> >
> >         return PERSONDatabase(employee['created_at'],
> >                               employee['id'],
> >                               employee['name'],
> >                               employee['attend_date'],
> >                               employee['distance'])
> >
> > --
> > https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
> >
> --
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
>


-- 
Regards,
Joseph Pareti - Artificial Intelligence consultant
Joseph Pareti's AI Consulting Services
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From cs at cskk.id.au  Wed Jan 27 00:55:08 2021
From: cs at cskk.id.au (Cameron Simpson)
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2021 16:55:08 +1100
Subject: How do you debug in Python? Coming from a Matlab and R user. I'm
 already aware of pdb.
In-Reply-To: <CAE2FW2kVX_7WUW4Eq77_bn1OGt8FMRwE1wjYQe-s_EH+AAWR6w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAE2FW2kVX_7WUW4Eq77_bn1OGt8FMRwE1wjYQe-s_EH+AAWR6w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <YBEAPGGaCKMFOFYW@cskk.homeip.net>

On 27Jan2021 00:19, C W <tmrsg11 at gmail.com> wrote:
>Here's the code again, class should be called PERSONDatabase, 
>misspelled
>earlier:
>class PERSONDatabase:
>   def __init__(self, id, created_at, name, attend_date, distance):
>      self._id = id
>      self.created_at = created_at
>      self.name= name
>      self.attend_date = attend_date
>      self.distance = distance

Here's you're setting attributes (which is a very normal thing to do).

>   @classmethod
>   def get_person(self, employee):
>      return PERSONDatabase(employee['created_at'],
>                                                employee['id'],
>                                                employee['name'],
>                                                employee['attend_date'],
>                                                employee['distance'])

I think this "employee" is called "person" in the code the traceback 
came from. It is better when these two things match.

>The PERSONDatabase class is called from main. This is the trace back I got
>from the VS code:
>
>Traceback (most recent call last):
>   File "/Users/Mike/Documents/Mike/main.py", line 95, in <module>
>      main()
>   File "/Users/Mike/Documents/Mike/main.py", line 86, in main
>      args = get_feed()
>   File "/Users/Mike/DocumentsMike/main.py", line 32, in get_feed
>      result = [PERSONatabase.get_person(raw_person) for raw_neo in
>raw_objects]
>   File "/Users/Mike/Documents/Mike/main.py", line 32, in <listcomp>
>      result = [NEODatabase.get_person(raw_person) for raw_neo in
>raw_objects]
>   File "/Users/Mike/Documents/Mike/database.py", line 24, in get_person
>      return PERSONDatabase(person['created_at'],
>KeyError: 'created_at'

Here's you're trying to index another object using a string, which seems 
to resemble the .created_at attribute in your PERSONDatabase object.

I would presume from this that the "person" object at the bottom of the 
traceback is the "raw_person" called above it. But I do not see 
raw_person defined anywhere. Are you sure you didn't mean to pass 
"raw_neo" instead of "raw_person"? That would be more normal, since 
you're iterating over "raw_objects".

Cheers,
Cameron Simpson <cs at cskk.id.au>

From mazyar.gh9 at gmail.com  Wed Jan 27 03:09:26 2021
From: mazyar.gh9 at gmail.com (Maziar Ghasemi)
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2021 11:39:26 +0330
Subject: error
Message-ID: <CAOistn-h-8xyqNwB_uuncY68W+-CFZyJCgeeT4q+u=JpoT=dxA@mail.gmail.com>

Hi
i`m use eric6 to python 3.9.1 . when open eric see this:
Warning: translation file 'git_en_US' could not be loaded.
Using default.
and when i try to do repair`s python I see:
"C:/user/mazya/AppData/Local/programs/python/python39/python39.dll
Verify that you have access to that directory."
Please advise me how to resolve this error
-- 
mazyar ghasemi
MS student of Razi university

From cl at isbd.net  Wed Jan 27 04:12:43 2021
From: cl at isbd.net (Chris Green)
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2021 09:12:43 +0000
Subject: How do you debug in Python? Coming from a Matlab and R user. I'm
 already aware of pdb.
References: <CAE2FW2kjBohvUzKu8OKhyA4xoSaQWQfnqZ9C9oha05kh7B6zLQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <ruqbc3$4h5$1@ciao.gmane.io>
 <CANc-5UyFDVx-YUtvNkX15EYCyWAkENrwW8g0_Vm5r3a2gjwsEA@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.919.1611708694.7193.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <bdn7eh-u3f4.ln1@esprimo.zbmc.eu>

Skip Montanaro <skip.montanaro at gmail.com> wrote:
> CW> How do you troubleshooting/debugging in Python?
> 
> GE> Mostly I read exception trace and read the code and think about it.
> GE> If that doesn't work, I add some print() or syslog() calls.
> 
> CW> I know hardcore computer scientists would tell me about Python debugger.
> 
> GE> I've been writing Python for 20+ years. I've never tried a debugger.
> 
> Agree with Grant on these points. I certainly use gdb to debug C code
> (like the interpreter), but for Python code, tracebacks and print
> statements pretty much take care of things. I know pdb has been around
> for a long while and many people like IDEs, but I've not generally
> found them all that useful. I'm stuck in the 90s I guess.
> 
Me too! :-)

I tend to use multiple terminal windows so I have the code being
edited in one window, run the code in another window and sometimes a
third window for looking at configuration etc.

Add print statement etc. for debugging.

-- 
Chris Green
?

From rosuav at gmail.com  Wed Jan 27 04:34:17 2021
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2021 20:34:17 +1100
Subject: How do you debug in Python? Coming from a Matlab and R user. I'm
 already aware of pdb.
In-Reply-To: <bdn7eh-u3f4.ln1@esprimo.zbmc.eu>
References: <CAE2FW2kjBohvUzKu8OKhyA4xoSaQWQfnqZ9C9oha05kh7B6zLQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <ruqbc3$4h5$1@ciao.gmane.io>
 <CANc-5UyFDVx-YUtvNkX15EYCyWAkENrwW8g0_Vm5r3a2gjwsEA@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.919.1611708694.7193.python-list@python.org>
 <bdn7eh-u3f4.ln1@esprimo.zbmc.eu>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmodAt=JM0ao19uNdH99oSLroYq9pBd1zA7QeznVRJtXKA@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Jan 27, 2021 at 8:21 PM Chris Green <cl at isbd.net> wrote:
>
> Skip Montanaro <skip.montanaro at gmail.com> wrote:
> > CW> How do you troubleshooting/debugging in Python?
> >
> > GE> Mostly I read exception trace and read the code and think about it.
> > GE> If that doesn't work, I add some print() or syslog() calls.
> >
> > CW> I know hardcore computer scientists would tell me about Python debugger.
> >
> > GE> I've been writing Python for 20+ years. I've never tried a debugger.
> >
> > Agree with Grant on these points. I certainly use gdb to debug C code
> > (like the interpreter), but for Python code, tracebacks and print
> > statements pretty much take care of things. I know pdb has been around
> > for a long while and many people like IDEs, but I've not generally
> > found them all that useful. I'm stuck in the 90s I guess.
> >
> Me too! :-)
>

Me three :)

I'm of the opinion that everyone should get some experience with the
most fundamental form of debugging: trigger the problem with logging
active. Sometimes that means reproducing a known problem, other times
it means predicting an unknown problem and just always having some
useful logging. (That's why your boot sequence inevitably creates a
bunch of logs of various forms.)

IIDPIO: If In Doubt, Print It Out... just keep that console noisy
until you're certain the information won't help you.

Some problems are easy to reproduce. You figure out how to make it
happen, you adjust your code, you tinker. Sometimes the tinkering will
involve a debug harness (like pdb), other times it just requires a few
more print() calls, and either way, great! But other problems aren't.
Try debugging a weird issue with your web site that shows up only once
every two weeks (or worse), and only ever occurs once. You can't run
your web server in a debug harness because the problem simply doesn't
happen on your local computer. Your only option is to try to log more
stuff and wait for the problem to happen again...

ChrisA

From Bischoop at vimart.net  Wed Jan 27 09:30:33 2021
From: Bischoop at vimart.net (Bischoop)
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2021 14:30:33 -0000 (UTC)
Subject: imalib cant get From: adresses
Message-ID: <slrns12u89.2m5.Bischoop@vimart.net>


I don't have much experience with imaplib and for a few days can't
manage to get properly, I followed also some tutorial but also met few
problems.
What I want is to get email addresses from emails I do have in gmail
inbox. The code below gets them but then pops an error.
When I change the part "for i in range()" as in commented line it gets
just the last email.

Anybody familiar here with imaplib? 


import getpass, imaplib
import email
from email.header import decode_header

M = imaplib.IMAP4_SSL('imap.gmail.com')
M.login(u, p)
M.select()
status, messages = M.select("INBOX")
di={}

# number of top emails to fetch
N = 100

# total number of emails
messages = int(messages[0])

for i in range(messages, messages-N,-1):
#for i in range(messages, N):
    # fetch the email message by ID
    res, msg = M.fetch(str(i), "(RFC822)")
    for response in msg:
        if isinstance(response, tuple):
            # parse a bytes email into a message object
            msg = email.message_from_bytes(response[1])


            From, encoding = decode_header(msg.get("From"))[0]
            if isinstance(From, bytes):
                From = From.decode(encoding)
            print("From:", From)
            print(type(From))


            print("="*100)
            if '<'in From:
                s = From.index('<')
                d = From.index('>')
                q = From[s + 1:d]
                w = From[0:s - 1]
                if q in di.values():
                    pass
                else:
                    di[w] = q
            else:
                if q not in di.values():

                    b = sum(1 for key in di if key.startswith('Friend'))
                    di[f'Friend{b+1}']=From
# close the connection and logout
M.close()
M.logout()

print(di)
for i in di.keys():
    if 'Friend' in i:
        print(From,'\n',i,di[i])

b = sum(1 for key in di if key.startswith('Friend'))
print(b)

    raise self.error('%s command error: %s %s' % (name, typ, data))
imaplib.error: FETCH command error: BAD [b'Could not parse command']

Process finished with exit code 1



========================



From David.Raymond at tomtom.com  Wed Jan 27 10:08:31 2021
From: David.Raymond at tomtom.com (David Raymond)
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2021 15:08:31 +0000
Subject: How do you debug in Python? Coming from a Matlab and R user. I'm
 already aware of pdb.
In-Reply-To: <CAPTjJmodAt=JM0ao19uNdH99oSLroYq9pBd1zA7QeznVRJtXKA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAE2FW2kjBohvUzKu8OKhyA4xoSaQWQfnqZ9C9oha05kh7B6zLQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <ruqbc3$4h5$1@ciao.gmane.io>
 <CANc-5UyFDVx-YUtvNkX15EYCyWAkENrwW8g0_Vm5r3a2gjwsEA@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.919.1611708694.7193.python-list@python.org>
 <bdn7eh-u3f4.ln1@esprimo.zbmc.eu>
 <CAPTjJmodAt=JM0ao19uNdH99oSLroYq9pBd1zA7QeznVRJtXKA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AM5PR0701MB2740F875E3A291B417E5A21387BB0@AM5PR0701MB2740.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com>

In regards to the various comments about adding in print() calls what I've found myself doing is to basically always use the logging module, and use logging.debug() for those.

Somewhere at the top of the script I'll have a line like...

DEBUG = False

...and when initializing the handler to stdout I'll do something like this...

toScreen = logging.StreamHandler(sys.stdout)
toScreen.setLevel(logging.DEBUG if DEBUG else logging.INFO)


That way I can sprinkle in

logging.debug("Some message here")

in various spots. If things are going wrong I can change DEBUG to True to see them on screen, and when I've fixed it I can just set DEBUG back to False. That way I don't have to try finding all those print() statements that were only there for debugging and comment them out or remove them.

As a bonus, if you also set a file logger for example with its level set to logging.DEBUG, then you can have those go into the log file without them cluttering the screen output.

As a side effect to using logging I found I also like having the timestamp automatically prepended to my output by the logger. I'd find myself checking in on something I left running in the background and thinking it's been on that step for "a while", but I have no idea how long "a while" really is. So the timestamps help quickly show "been stuck there for 3 hours" vs "just got to that step 3 seconds before I switched to its window"

I don't claim these are the best practices :) But figured I'd offer another take on it.

From torriem at gmail.com  Wed Jan 27 10:49:44 2021
From: torriem at gmail.com (Michael Torrie)
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2021 08:49:44 -0700
Subject: How do you debug in Python? Coming from a Matlab and R user. I'm
 already aware of pdb.
In-Reply-To: <CAE2FW2kVX_7WUW4Eq77_bn1OGt8FMRwE1wjYQe-s_EH+AAWR6w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAE2FW2kjBohvUzKu8OKhyA4xoSaQWQfnqZ9C9oha05kh7B6zLQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <ruqbc3$4h5$1@ciao.gmane.io> <9B50E52F-F565-4C78-B736-A7589DE5A433@leafe.com>
 <CAE2FW2nNP2GfM7mJM8aTg9-HCKG6iCEvs46L8R8PdC1N-S0xhQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <667489a6-2322-42f8-3feb-719c0adeb906@gmail.com>
 <CAE2FW2kVX_7WUW4Eq77_bn1OGt8FMRwE1wjYQe-s_EH+AAWR6w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <db7a4239-cc7d-fe2c-49fe-3abc6ca1d050@gmail.com>

On 1/26/21 10:19 PM, C W wrote:
> Traceback (most recent call last):
>    File "/Users/Mike/Documents/Mike/main.py", line 95, in <module>
>       main()
>    File "/Users/Mike/Documents/Mike/main.py", line 86, in main
>       args = get_feed()
>    File "/Users/Mike/DocumentsMike/main.py", line 32, in get_feed
>       result = [PERSONatabase.get_person(raw_person) for raw_neo in
> raw_objects]
>    File "/Users/Mike/Documents/Mike/main.py", line 32, in <listcomp>
>       result = [NEODatabase.get_person(raw_person) for raw_neo in
> raw_objects]
>    File "/Users/Mike/Documents/Mike/database.py", line 24, in get_person
>       return PERSONDatabase(person['created_at'],
> KeyError: 'created_at'

The actual error is the last part, which is a KeyError on line 24.  A
key error usually is from a dictionary-like object and it means the
requested key is not found in that object.  In other words, this person
object has no "created_at" key.  Hope that makes sense.

I do not know why the code you posted refers to "employee" but the
traceback refers to "person."

In any case the trace back shows you what called what until the error
occurred. You can trace the execution of the code simply by following
it.  main() called get_feed() which set up a list comprehension, which
calls get_person() which is where the error is occurring.  I'm not
following the list comprehension stuff; I don't know why python is first
referring to PERSONatabase and then refers to NEODatabase.

From tmrsg11 at gmail.com  Wed Jan 27 11:21:58 2021
From: tmrsg11 at gmail.com (C W)
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2021 11:21:58 -0500
Subject: How do you debug in Python? Coming from a Matlab and R user. I'm
 already aware of pdb.
In-Reply-To: <YBEAPGGaCKMFOFYW@cskk.homeip.net>
References: <CAE2FW2kVX_7WUW4Eq77_bn1OGt8FMRwE1wjYQe-s_EH+AAWR6w@mail.gmail.com>
 <YBEAPGGaCKMFOFYW@cskk.homeip.net>
Message-ID: <CAE2FW2kgCFHX+sSBYgmCmy9q0trdb6k3NDTFMcPv_Wdfr481pA@mail.gmail.com>

Hi Cameron,
Yes, you are correct in all above. There's a mistake in my copy paste.
Thanks for pointing that out!

On Wed, Jan 27, 2021 at 12:58 AM Cameron Simpson <cs at cskk.id.au> wrote:

> On 27Jan2021 00:19, C W <tmrsg11 at gmail.com> wrote:
> >Here's the code again, class should be called PERSONDatabase,
> >misspelled
> >earlier:
> >class PERSONDatabase:
> >   def __init__(self, id, created_at, name, attend_date, distance):
> >      self._id = id
> >      self.created_at = created_at
> >      self.name= name
> >      self.attend_date = attend_date
> >      self.distance = distance
>
> Here's you're setting attributes (which is a very normal thing to do).
>
> >   @classmethod
> >   def get_person(self, employee):
> >      return PERSONDatabase(employee['created_at'],
> >                                                employee['id'],
> >                                                employee['name'],
> >                                                employee['attend_date'],
> >                                                employee['distance'])
>
> I think this "employee" is called "person" in the code the traceback
> came from. It is better when these two things match.
>
> >The PERSONDatabase class is called from main. This is the trace back I got
> >from the VS code:
> >
> >Traceback (most recent call last):
> >   File "/Users/Mike/Documents/Mike/main.py", line 95, in <module>
> >      main()
> >   File "/Users/Mike/Documents/Mike/main.py", line 86, in main
> >      args = get_feed()
> >   File "/Users/Mike/DocumentsMike/main.py", line 32, in get_feed
> >      result = [PERSONatabase.get_person(raw_person) for raw_neo in
> >raw_objects]
> >   File "/Users/Mike/Documents/Mike/main.py", line 32, in <listcomp>
> >      result = [NEODatabase.get_person(raw_person) for raw_neo in
> >raw_objects]
> >   File "/Users/Mike/Documents/Mike/database.py", line 24, in get_person
> >      return PERSONDatabase(person['created_at'],
> >KeyError: 'created_at'
>
> Here's you're trying to index another object using a string, which seems
> to resemble the .created_at attribute in your PERSONDatabase object.
>
> I would presume from this that the "person" object at the bottom of the
> traceback is the "raw_person" called above it. But I do not see
> raw_person defined anywhere. Are you sure you didn't mean to pass
> "raw_neo" instead of "raw_person"? That would be more normal, since
> you're iterating over "raw_objects".
>
> Cheers,
> Cameron Simpson <cs at cskk.id.au>
> --
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
>

From paston.cooper at gmail.com  Wed Jan 27 11:52:06 2021
From: paston.cooper at gmail.com (Justin Paston-Cooper)
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2021 19:52:06 +0300
Subject: asyncio: Gather over growing list of tasks
Message-ID: <CAEndGgTaPJ4wZZEPEUD+-UwynecoNJndHq+URL=SvAS4+_2sRg@mail.gmail.com>

Hello,

Let's say I have a loop where at each iteration, a task which makes an
HTTP request to some endpoint is generated, and then the loop sleeps
for n seconds. These tasks may throw exceptions.

I can call asyncio.gather on these tasks once the loop has finished,
but I actually want to stop the loop immediately if an exception is
thrown.

Is there a solution that would allow me to stop this loop as soon as
an exception is thrown by any of these request tasks?

Thanks.

From flaskee at protonmail.com  Wed Jan 27 13:32:07 2021
From: flaskee at protonmail.com (flaskee)
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2021 18:32:07 +0000
Subject: IDE tools to debug in Python?
Message-ID: <88OB0d-SjSbvDOqJJmhHDs3oC4IH82IeBifbF3ppQZesLwSjeociw8RZlTQ-6F0YgWpX7pTp3S0soL28Fn9N326EX_jjw20VO3hhwxTZhQA=@protonmail.com>


While print() is groovy and all,
if anyone runs across a non-pdb python debugger (standalone or IDE-based)
please let me know.

I too was blessed with IDE-based debugging (in the 90's!)
 * where you can set break point(s);
 * have the program stop right before a suspected failure point;
 * check the contents of ALL variables, and choose whether to restart;
 * or skip a few lines before restarting;
 * or change a variable (hot, move back a few lines and restart, etc.
 * Some, would even let you alter the code a bit before restarting.

I too, miss this.


Hopefully I did not miss someone mentioning
such a python tool in the prior thread.

Thanks!


From tmrsg11 at gmail.com  Wed Jan 27 13:42:56 2021
From: tmrsg11 at gmail.com (C W)
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2021 13:42:56 -0500
Subject: How do you debug in Python? Coming from a Matlab and R user. I'm
 already aware of pdb.
In-Reply-To: <db7a4239-cc7d-fe2c-49fe-3abc6ca1d050@gmail.com>
References: <CAE2FW2kjBohvUzKu8OKhyA4xoSaQWQfnqZ9C9oha05kh7B6zLQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <ruqbc3$4h5$1@ciao.gmane.io> <9B50E52F-F565-4C78-B736-A7589DE5A433@leafe.com>
 <CAE2FW2nNP2GfM7mJM8aTg9-HCKG6iCEvs46L8R8PdC1N-S0xhQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <667489a6-2322-42f8-3feb-719c0adeb906@gmail.com>
 <CAE2FW2kVX_7WUW4Eq77_bn1OGt8FMRwE1wjYQe-s_EH+AAWR6w@mail.gmail.com>
 <db7a4239-cc7d-fe2c-49fe-3abc6ca1d050@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAE2FW2k79UY__m_T8w7HrqrATXhg0A0i_68jEH4M-pPj-O53Fg@mail.gmail.com>

For learning purposes, here's the files:
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/a3iy40rcvib4uvj/AAADmlM2i6NquWC1SV0nZfnDa?dl=0

Yes, you are correct about "employee" and "person" discrepancies. For now,
the list comprehension is where I get stuck.

I'd like to know how the experts on here are approaching and debugging
this.

Bonus if no debugger or breakpoint. Just the good ol' run the function and
evaluate/print output for problems.

Thanks so much,

Mike

On Wed, Jan 27, 2021 at 10:53 AM Michael Torrie <torriem at gmail.com> wrote:

> On 1/26/21 10:19 PM, C W wrote:
> > Traceback (most recent call last):
> >    File "/Users/Mike/Documents/Mike/main.py", line 95, in <module>
> >       main()
> >    File "/Users/Mike/Documents/Mike/main.py", line 86, in main
> >       args = get_feed()
> >    File "/Users/Mike/DocumentsMike/main.py", line 32, in get_feed
> >       result = [PERSONatabase.get_person(raw_person) for raw_neo in
> > raw_objects]
> >    File "/Users/Mike/Documents/Mike/main.py", line 32, in <listcomp>
> >       result = [NEODatabase.get_person(raw_person) for raw_neo in
> > raw_objects]
> >    File "/Users/Mike/Documents/Mike/database.py", line 24, in get_person
> >       return PERSONDatabase(person['created_at'],
> > KeyError: 'created_at'
>
> The actual error is the last part, which is a KeyError on line 24.  A
> key error usually is from a dictionary-like object and it means the
> requested key is not found in that object.  In other words, this person
> object has no "created_at" key.  Hope that makes sense.
>
> I do not know why the code you posted refers to "employee" but the
> traceback refers to "person."
>
> In any case the trace back shows you what called what until the error
> occurred. You can trace the execution of the code simply by following
> it.  main() called get_feed() which set up a list comprehension, which
> calls get_person() which is where the error is occurring.  I'm not
> following the list comprehension stuff; I don't know why python is first
> referring to PERSONatabase and then refers to NEODatabase.
> --
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
>

From swistakm at gmail.com  Wed Jan 27 13:51:00 2021
From: swistakm at gmail.com (=?utf-8?Q?Micha=C5=82_Jaworski?=)
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2021 19:51:00 +0100
Subject: IDE tools to debug in Python?
Message-ID: <B74CF551-9FE0-4894-8CF6-D5566D5767D0@gmail.com>

?PyCharm has all these debugging capabilities and there is a community edition that you can use for free. If you earn for the living with Python it is worth investing in professional edition though. 

Micha? Jaworski

> Wiadomo?? napisana przez flaskee via Python-list <python-list at python.org> w dniu 27.01.2021, o godz. 19:32:
> 
> ?
> While print() is groovy and all,
> if anyone runs across a non-pdb python debugger (standalone or IDE-based)
> please let me know.
> 
> I too was blessed with IDE-based debugging (in the 90's!)
> * where you can set break point(s);
> * have the program stop right before a suspected failure point;
> * check the contents of ALL variables, and choose whether to restart;
> * or skip a few lines before restarting;
> * or change a variable (hot, move back a few lines and restart, etc.
> * Some, would even let you alter the code a bit before restarting.
> 
> I too, miss this.
> 
> 
> Hopefully I did not miss someone mentioning
> such a python tool in the prior thread.
> 
> Thanks!
> 
> -- 
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

From zljubisic at gmail.com  Wed Jan 27 14:04:04 2021
From: zljubisic at gmail.com (Zoran)
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2021 11:04:04 -0800 (PST)
Subject: How to accept argparse.log_level parameter and propagate its value to
 all other modules
Message-ID: <e8c379a1-7a54-4ac4-b9c9-ecae6a8c4e75n@googlegroups.com>

In the same folder I have three files: main.py, app_logger.py and mymodule.py with their contents:

# main.py
import argparse
import app_logger
import mymodule
import logging

logger = app_logger.get_logger(__name__)

def log_some_messages():
    logger.debug(f'{__name__} - debug message')
    logger.info(f'{__name__} - info message')
    logger.warning(f'{__name__} - warning message')

if __name__ == '__main__':
    parser = argparse.ArgumentParser(description="Script for executing data quality checks.")
    parser.add_argument("--log-level", default='info', choices=['notset', 'debug', 'info', 'warning', 'error', 'critical'], help="set log level")
    args = parser.parse_args()

    logger.setLevel(eval(f"logging.{args.log_level.upper()}"))

    log_some_messages()
    mymodule.log_some_messages()


#mymodule.py
import logging

from script_logging import app_logger

logger = app_logger.get_logger(__name__)


def log_some_messages():
    logger.debug(f'{__name__} - debug message')
    logger.info(f'{__name__} - info message')
    logger.warning(f'{__name__} - warning message')


#app_logger.py
import logging

_log_format = f"%(asctime)s - [%(levelname)s] - %(name)s - (%(filename)s).%(funcName)s(%(lineno)d) - %(message)s"
_log_level = logging.DEBUG

def get_stream_handler():
    stream_handler = logging.StreamHandler()
    stream_handler.setLevel(_log_level)
    stream_handler.setFormatter(logging.Formatter(_log_format))
    return stream_handler

def get_logger(name):
    logger = logging.getLogger(name)
    logger.setLevel(_log_level)
    logger.addHandler(get_stream_handler())
    return logger

When I run it with main.py --log-level debug I get the following output:

2021-01-25 13:21:01,151 - [DEBUG] - __main__ - (main.py).log_some_messages(10) - __main__ - debug message
2021-01-25 13:21:01,151 - [INFO] - __main__ - (main.py).log_some_messages(11) - __main__ - info message
2021-01-25 13:21:01,152 - [WARNING] - __main__ - (main.py).log_some_messages(12) - __main__ - warning message
2021-01-25 13:21:01,152 - [DEBUG] - mymodule - (mymodule.py).log_some_messages(10) - mymodule - debug message
2021-01-25 13:21:01,152 - [INFO] - mymodule - (mymodule.py).log_some_messages(11) - mymodule - info message
2021-01-25 13:21:01,152 - [WARNING] - mymodule - (mymodule.py).log_some_messages(12) - mymodule - warning message

which is OK. If I change --log-level parameter to 'warning', than output is the following:

2021-01-25 13:22:12,760 - [WARNING] - __main__ - (main.py).log_some_messages(12) - __main__ - warning message
2021-01-25 13:22:12,760 - [DEBUG] - mymodule - (mymodule.py).log_some_messages(10) - mymodule - debug message
2021-01-25 13:22:12,761 - [INFO] - mymodule - (mymodule.py).log_some_messages(11) - mymodule - info message
2021-01-25 13:22:12,761 - [WARNING] - mymodule - (mymodule.py).log_some_messages(12) - mymodule - warning message

As you can see, in main.py log level is set correctly, but in mymodule.py it is not.

How to accept argparse.log_level parameter in if __name__ == '__main__': and propagate its value to all other modules?

From tmrsg11 at gmail.com  Wed Jan 27 14:07:38 2021
From: tmrsg11 at gmail.com (C W)
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2021 14:07:38 -0500
Subject: IDE tools to debug in Python?
In-Reply-To: <B74CF551-9FE0-4894-8CF6-D5566D5767D0@gmail.com>
References: <B74CF551-9FE0-4894-8CF6-D5566D5767D0@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAE2FW2=DaigNF+U=yyBcVf+9GEhETnwZmX6S8Hv7oTLVGCufyw@mail.gmail.com>

I'm not expert in Python, but I sure tried many IDEs to kick off Python
programming.

I started with PyCharm, but I had a problem with it constantly scanning the
background, even after I turned that feature off.

My favorite (I'm using now) is VS Code with Python extension, it's very
light. Recently also started background scanning, but that's generally done
in 30 seconds.

On Wed, Jan 27, 2021 at 1:51 PM Micha? Jaworski <swistakm at gmail.com> wrote:

> PyCharm has all these debugging capabilities and there is a community
> edition that you can use for free. If you earn for the living with Python
> it is worth investing in professional edition though.
>
> Micha? Jaworski
>
> > Wiadomo?? napisana przez flaskee via Python-list <python-list at python.org>
> w dniu 27.01.2021, o godz. 19:32:
> >
> > ?
> > While print() is groovy and all,
> > if anyone runs across a non-pdb python debugger (standalone or IDE-based)
> > please let me know.
> >
> > I too was blessed with IDE-based debugging (in the 90's!)
> > * where you can set break point(s);
> > * have the program stop right before a suspected failure point;
> > * check the contents of ALL variables, and choose whether to restart;
> > * or skip a few lines before restarting;
> > * or change a variable (hot, move back a few lines and restart, etc.
> > * Some, would even let you alter the code a bit before restarting.
> >
> > I too, miss this.
> >
> >
> > Hopefully I did not miss someone mentioning
> > such a python tool in the prior thread.
> >
> > Thanks!
> >
> > --
> > https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
>

From maillist at schwertberger.de  Wed Jan 27 14:34:27 2021
From: maillist at schwertberger.de (Dietmar Schwertberger)
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2021 20:34:27 +0100
Subject: How do you debug in Python? Coming from a Matlab and R user. I'm
 already aware of pdb.
In-Reply-To: <CANc-5UyFDVx-YUtvNkX15EYCyWAkENrwW8g0_Vm5r3a2gjwsEA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAE2FW2kjBohvUzKu8OKhyA4xoSaQWQfnqZ9C9oha05kh7B6zLQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <ruqbc3$4h5$1@ciao.gmane.io>
 <CANc-5UyFDVx-YUtvNkX15EYCyWAkENrwW8g0_Vm5r3a2gjwsEA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <87b26d73-399b-67f7-7660-92ab67bedf15@schwertberger.de>

On 27.01.2021 01:52, Skip Montanaro wrote:
> Agree with Grant on these points. I certainly use gdb to debug C code
> (like the interpreter), but for Python code, tracebacks and print
> statements pretty much take care of things.
I thought so for the first 12 year of using Python.
For the last 12 years I have been using an IDE/debugger with built-in 
console.

It boosted productivity by at least a factor of two.


Sometimes "python -i ..." and "import pdb" is good enough, being able to 
inspect variables after an exception.
I have the impression that pdb as post mortem debugger is not well known...

Regards,

Dietmar



From maillist at schwertberger.de  Wed Jan 27 14:27:54 2021
From: maillist at schwertberger.de (Dietmar Schwertberger)
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2021 20:27:54 +0100
Subject: IDE tools to debug in Python?
In-Reply-To: <CAE2FW2=DaigNF+U=yyBcVf+9GEhETnwZmX6S8Hv7oTLVGCufyw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <B74CF551-9FE0-4894-8CF6-D5566D5767D0@gmail.com>
 <CAE2FW2=DaigNF+U=yyBcVf+9GEhETnwZmX6S8Hv7oTLVGCufyw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <403a855f-e0fa-36a9-d570-d4c480291553@schwertberger.de>

On 27.01.2021 20:07, C W wrote:
> I'm not expert in Python, but I sure tried many IDEs to kick off Python
> programming.
>
> I started with PyCharm, but I had a problem with it constantly scanning the
> background, even after I turned that feature off.
>
> My favorite (I'm using now) is VS Code with Python extension, it's very
> light. Recently also started background scanning, but that's generally done
> in 30 seconds.

There's also Wing IDE (Pro). The best is to try at least PyCharm and 
Wing IDE (Pro) and maybe one or more of the others.

Besides the debugger experience from the 90's please note that stepping 
through a program is not the most valuable feature of the Python debuggers:
Python is an interactive language. You can develop a lot while working 
on a Python console. Then copy and paste into a program.

Especially for hardware control, network programming and GUI development 
I find that the most valuable feature of Python.
(Maybe you have used Forth in the 90s as well, then you will know this 
feature.)

The better debuggers have a built-in console.
See here for a screenshot of Wing's debug console exploring GUI code: 
http://wxglade.sourceforge.net/docs/_images/Calculator_Debugger.png

Regards,

Dietmar




From flaskee at protonmail.com  Wed Jan 27 14:44:28 2021
From: flaskee at protonmail.com (flaskee)
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2021 19:44:28 +0000
Subject: IDE tools to debug in Python?
In-Reply-To: <CAE2FW2=DaigNF+U=yyBcVf+9GEhETnwZmX6S8Hv7oTLVGCufyw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <B74CF551-9FE0-4894-8CF6-D5566D5767D0@gmail.com>
 <CAE2FW2=DaigNF+U=yyBcVf+9GEhETnwZmX6S8Hv7oTLVGCufyw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <8-obA2Uq5NWJNhaLeSIPjkHM9SWwWm20X7KVD21lvpUqEWjlgDybhp8GwoXo1MZ4umyd6LyhvxRkTlBFWf5EGCEoiA5x-lpe56BDh-TjjAg=@protonmail.com>

" also started background scanning, but that's generally done in 30 seconds."

Do we know what PyCharm is background scanning for?
Do we know what VS Code is scanning for?

I've been leery of VS* things since 2013, when Microsoft (secretly) changed their VS compiler, so that every single .exe, .dll, etc that was compiled; included a tiny API call, that dialed back to Microsoft. Even a Hello-World.exe would get this telemetry API embedded. So, if you distributed executables -- MS knew right where they went to, when the user ran them.

There was "outrage" when Microsoft was finally caught; and they backed off of this in the next version (I do not know if they've snuck it in again or not). But it did not raise my confidence in tools from Microsoft all that much.

I love Python.
I just want to add a real debugger ;-)

Sent with [ProtonMail](https://protonmail.com) Secure Email.

??????? Original Message ???????
On Wednesday, January 27, 2021 2:07 PM, C W <tmrsg11 at gmail.com> wrote:

> I'm not expert in Python, but I sure tried many IDEs to kick off Python programming.
>
> I started with PyCharm, but I had a problem with it constantly scanning the background, even after I turned that feature off.
>
> My favorite (I'm using now) is VS Code with Python extension, it's very light. Recently also started background scanning, but that's generally done in 30 seconds.
>
> On Wed, Jan 27, 2021 at 1:51 PM Micha? Jaworski <swistakm at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> PyCharm has all these debugging capabilities and there is a community edition that you can use for free. If you earn for the living with Python it is worth investing in professional edition though.
>>
>> Micha? Jaworski
>>
>>> Wiadomo?? napisana przez flaskee via Python-list <python-list at python.org> w dniu 27.01.2021, o godz. 19:32:
>>>
>>> ?
>>> While print() is groovy and all,
>>> if anyone runs across a non-pdb python debugger (standalone or IDE-based)
>>> please let me know.
>>>
>>> I too was blessed with IDE-based debugging (in the 90's!)
>>> * where you can set break point(s);
>>> * have the program stop right before a suspected failure point;
>>> * check the contents of ALL variables, and choose whether to restart;
>>> * or skip a few lines before restarting;
>>> * or change a variable (hot, move back a few lines and restart, etc.
>>> * Some, would even let you alter the code a bit before restarting.
>>>
>>> I too, miss this.
>>>
>>>
>>> Hopefully I did not miss someone mentioning
>>> such a python tool in the prior thread.
>>>
>>> Thanks!
>>>
>>> --
>>> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

From Bischoop at vimart.net  Wed Jan 27 14:49:54 2021
From: Bischoop at vimart.net (Bischoop)
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2021 19:49:54 -0000 (UTC)
Subject: imalib cant get From: adresses
References: <slrns12u89.2m5.Bischoop@vimart.net>
Message-ID: <slrns13gv2.h1l.Bischoop@vimart.net>

On 2021-01-27, Bischoop <Bischoop at vimart.net> wrote:


Solved using IMAP4.uid.


From grant.b.edwards at gmail.com  Wed Jan 27 15:17:01 2021
From: grant.b.edwards at gmail.com (Grant Edwards)
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2021 20:17:01 -0000 (UTC)
Subject: IDE tools to debug in Python?
References: <B74CF551-9FE0-4894-8CF6-D5566D5767D0@gmail.com>
 <CAE2FW2=DaigNF+U=yyBcVf+9GEhETnwZmX6S8Hv7oTLVGCufyw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <rushnt$q10$1@ciao.gmane.io>

On 2021-01-27, C W <tmrsg11 at gmail.com> wrote:
> I'm not expert in Python, but I sure tried many IDEs to kick off Python
> programming.
>
> I started with PyCharm, but I had a problem with it constantly scanning the
> background, even after I turned that feature off.

What is it scanning?

> My favorite (I'm using now) is VS Code with Python extension, it's very
> light. Recently also started background scanning, but that's generally done
> in 30 seconds.

Same question, what is it scanning?

--
Grant


From tmrsg11 at gmail.com  Wed Jan 27 15:36:12 2021
From: tmrsg11 at gmail.com (C W)
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2021 15:36:12 -0500
Subject: IDE tools to debug in Python?
In-Reply-To: <rushnt$q10$1@ciao.gmane.io>
References: <B74CF551-9FE0-4894-8CF6-D5566D5767D0@gmail.com>
 <CAE2FW2=DaigNF+U=yyBcVf+9GEhETnwZmX6S8Hv7oTLVGCufyw@mail.gmail.com>
 <rushnt$q10$1@ciao.gmane.io>
Message-ID: <CAE2FW2kUaVjPBLjsiG+7ggD4OicE2Ais2jPDkhyYYmq=behLHw@mail.gmail.com>

I don't know exactly, but it shows as inspection on the bottom left corner.

I believe it's indexing in the background.

On Wed, Jan 27, 2021 at 3:25 PM Grant Edwards <grant.b.edwards at gmail.com>
wrote:

> On 2021-01-27, C W <tmrsg11 at gmail.com> wrote:
> > I'm not expert in Python, but I sure tried many IDEs to kick off Python
> > programming.
> >
> > I started with PyCharm, but I had a problem with it constantly scanning
> the
> > background, even after I turned that feature off.
>
> What is it scanning?
>
> > My favorite (I'm using now) is VS Code with Python extension, it's very
> > light. Recently also started background scanning, but that's generally
> done
> > in 30 seconds.
>
> Same question, what is it scanning?
>
> --
> Grant
>
> --
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
>

From tmrsg11 at gmail.com  Wed Jan 27 15:36:48 2021
From: tmrsg11 at gmail.com (C W)
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2021 15:36:48 -0500
Subject: IDE tools to debug in Python?
In-Reply-To: <CAE2FW2kUaVjPBLjsiG+7ggD4OicE2Ais2jPDkhyYYmq=behLHw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <B74CF551-9FE0-4894-8CF6-D5566D5767D0@gmail.com>
 <CAE2FW2=DaigNF+U=yyBcVf+9GEhETnwZmX6S8Hv7oTLVGCufyw@mail.gmail.com>
 <rushnt$q10$1@ciao.gmane.io>
 <CAE2FW2kUaVjPBLjsiG+7ggD4OicE2Ais2jPDkhyYYmq=behLHw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAE2FW2kmP35PBkZroGKUvpZAsE2dbnrZehfkNhk=n0QbvkKoZg@mail.gmail.com>

I meant bottom right corner, not left. opps!

On Wed, Jan 27, 2021 at 3:36 PM C W <tmrsg11 at gmail.com> wrote:

> I don't know exactly, but it shows as inspection on the bottom left corner.
>
> I believe it's indexing in the background.
>
> On Wed, Jan 27, 2021 at 3:25 PM Grant Edwards <grant.b.edwards at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> On 2021-01-27, C W <tmrsg11 at gmail.com> wrote:
>> > I'm not expert in Python, but I sure tried many IDEs to kick off Python
>> > programming.
>> >
>> > I started with PyCharm, but I had a problem with it constantly scanning
>> the
>> > background, even after I turned that feature off.
>>
>> What is it scanning?
>>
>> > My favorite (I'm using now) is VS Code with Python extension, it's very
>> > light. Recently also started background scanning, but that's generally
>> done
>> > in 30 seconds.
>>
>> Same question, what is it scanning?
>>
>> --
>> Grant
>>
>> --
>> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
>>
>

From pbryan at anode.ca  Wed Jan 27 15:44:40 2021
From: pbryan at anode.ca (Paul Bryan)
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2021 20:44:40 +0000
Subject: IDE tools to debug in Python?
In-Reply-To: <CAE2FW2kUaVjPBLjsiG+7ggD4OicE2Ais2jPDkhyYYmq=behLHw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <B74CF551-9FE0-4894-8CF6-D5566D5767D0@gmail.com>
 <CAE2FW2=DaigNF+U=yyBcVf+9GEhETnwZmX6S8Hv7oTLVGCufyw@mail.gmail.com>
 <rushnt$q10$1@ciao.gmane.io>
 <CAE2FW2kUaVjPBLjsiG+7ggD4OicE2Ais2jPDkhyYYmq=behLHw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <010d01774597504d-7a6fa983-caef-461b-95d0-7180103a763f-000000@ca-central-1.amazonses.com>

My experience with IntelliJ (related to PyCharm): it scans all source
files in the project, compiles them, graphs all dependencies, compiles
those (if necessary) or inspects their class bytecode, and so on to
build a full graph in memory to support showing errors in real time
(highlighting in source) and autocomplete when user is typing. In my
experience, it's heavyweight, and creates more reliance on the features
of an IDE than I feel is healthy (IDE becomes a crutch). I suspect
PyCharm is doing much of the same.

On Wed, 2021-01-27 at 15:36 -0500, C W wrote:
> I don't know exactly, but it shows as inspection on the bottom left
> corner.
> 
> I believe it's indexing in the background.
> 
> On Wed, Jan 27, 2021 at 3:25 PM Grant Edwards
> <grant.b.edwards at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> 
> > On 2021-01-27, C W <tmrsg11 at gmail.com> wrote:
> > > I'm not expert in Python, but I sure tried many IDEs to kick off
> > > Python
> > > programming.
> > > 
> > > I started with PyCharm, but I had a problem with it constantly
> > > scanning
> > the
> > > background, even after I turned that feature off.
> > 
> > What is it scanning?
> > 
> > > My favorite (I'm using now) is VS Code with Python extension,
> > > it's very
> > > light. Recently also started background scanning, but that's
> > > generally
> > done
> > > in 30 seconds.
> > 
> > Same question, what is it scanning?
> > 
> > --
> > Grant
> > 
> > --
> > https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
> > 


From jpic at yourlabs.org  Wed Jan 27 16:09:43 2021
From: jpic at yourlabs.org (J. Pic)
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2021 22:09:43 +0100
Subject: IDE tools to debug in Python?
In-Reply-To: <010d01774597504d-7a6fa983-caef-461b-95d0-7180103a763f-000000@ca-central-1.amazonses.com>
References: <B74CF551-9FE0-4894-8CF6-D5566D5767D0@gmail.com>
 <CAE2FW2=DaigNF+U=yyBcVf+9GEhETnwZmX6S8Hv7oTLVGCufyw@mail.gmail.com>
 <rushnt$q10$1@ciao.gmane.io>
 <CAE2FW2kUaVjPBLjsiG+7ggD4OicE2Ais2jPDkhyYYmq=behLHw@mail.gmail.com>
 <010d01774597504d-7a6fa983-caef-461b-95d0-7180103a763f-000000@ca-central-1.amazonses.com>
Message-ID: <CAC6Op19L4Z0i5OT23uZumR+GAyteP=muK20a0DLjTs1Y1nL+oQ@mail.gmail.com>

Thonny, winpdb/winpdb-rebord, eric4, pudb, web-pdb, vy, mu, netbeans,
eclipse, pdbpp...

Also see: https://wiki.python.org/moin/PythonDebuggingTools

"Changing a variable" -> that's basically evaluating code ? -> supported in
all debuggers I suppose

From barry at barrys-emacs.org  Wed Jan 27 16:29:50 2021
From: barry at barrys-emacs.org (Barry Scott)
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2021 21:29:50 +0000
Subject: imalib cant get From: adresses
In-Reply-To: <slrns12u89.2m5.Bischoop@vimart.net>
References: <slrns12u89.2m5.Bischoop@vimart.net>
Message-ID: <41FB96D3-AA2D-4A8B-B2D4-0833539311B1@barrys-emacs.org>

Sigh you use a damaged email address for reply does not work.

> On 27 Jan 2021, at 14:30, Bischoop <Bischoop at vimart.net> wrote:
> 
> 
> I don't have much experience with imaplib and for a few days can't
> manage to get properly, I followed also some tutorial but also met few
> problems.
> What I want is to get email addresses from emails I do have in gmail
> inbox. The code below gets them but then pops an error.
> When I change the part "for i in range()" as in commented line it gets
> just the last email.
> 
> Anybody familiar here with imaplib? 

You have assumed that message ID are integers and in order.
Where as they are assigned by the IMAP server and are not in order.
I'm not even sure that they need to be integers.

You need to search the for the messages you want to get back a list of msg_id's.

The you can use the loop over the msg id doing operations on them.

After you M.select() call M.search() with appropriate params.
search is very powerful and will get you only the messages you are interested in.

Here is a fragment of some of my code to show the idea:

       folder_info = self.server.select_folder( folder, readonly=True )
       msg_ids = self.server.search( ['ALL'] )
       print( msg_ids )

       all_msg_info = self.server.fetch( msg_ids, ['FLAGS','ENVELOPE'] )
       for msg_id in all_msg_info:
           msg_info = all_msg_info[ msg_id ]
           print( '%-40s %s %s' % (msg_info[b'FLAGS'], msg_info[b'ENVELOPE'].date, msg_info[b'ENVELOPE'].subject) )

Barry

> 
> 
> import getpass, imaplib
> import email
> from email.header import decode_header
> 
> M = imaplib.IMAP4_SSL('imap.gmail.com')
> M.login(u, p)
> M.select()
> status, messages = M.select("INBOX")
> di={}
> 
> # number of top emails to fetch
> N = 100
> 
> # total number of emails
> messages = int(messages[0])
> 
> for i in range(messages, messages-N,-1):
> #for i in range(messages, N):
>   # fetch the email message by ID
>   res, msg = M.fetch(str(i), "(RFC822)")
>   for response in msg:
>       if isinstance(response, tuple):
>           # parse a bytes email into a message object
>           msg = email.message_from_bytes(response[1])
> 
> 
>           From, encoding = decode_header(msg.get("From"))[0]
>           if isinstance(From, bytes):
>               From = From.decode(encoding)
>           print("From:", From)
>           print(type(From))
> 
> 
>           print("="*100)
>           if '<'in From:
>               s = From.index('<')
>               d = From.index('>')
>               q = From[s + 1:d]
>               w = From[0:s - 1]
>               if q in di.values():
>                   pass
>               else:
>                   di[w] = q
>           else:
>               if q not in di.values():
> 
>                   b = sum(1 for key in di if key.startswith('Friend'))
>                   di[f'Friend{b+1}']=From
> # close the connection and logout
> M.close()
> M.logout()
> 
> print(di)
> for i in di.keys():
>   if 'Friend' in i:
>       print(From,'\n',i,di[i])
> 
> b = sum(1 for key in di if key.startswith('Friend'))
> print(b)
> 
>   raise self.error('%s command error: %s %s' % (name, typ, data))
> imaplib.error: FETCH command error: BAD [b'Could not parse command']
> 
> Process finished with exit code 1
> 
> 
> 
> ========================
> 
> 
> -- 
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
> 


From __peter__ at web.de  Wed Jan 27 16:59:23 2021
From: __peter__ at web.de (Peter Otten)
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2021 22:59:23 +0100
Subject: How to accept argparse.log_level parameter and propagate its
 value to all other modules
In-Reply-To: <e8c379a1-7a54-4ac4-b9c9-ecae6a8c4e75n@googlegroups.com>
References: <e8c379a1-7a54-4ac4-b9c9-ecae6a8c4e75n@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <c5b9f638-d95b-63eb-2056-df659c9883b6@web.de>

On 27/01/2021 20:04, Zoran wrote:
> In the same folder I have three files: main.py, app_logger.py and mymodule.py with their contents:
>
> # main.py
> import argparse
> import app_logger
> import mymodule
> import logging
>
> logger = app_logger.get_logger(__name__)
>
> def log_some_messages():
>      logger.debug(f'{__name__} - debug message')
>      logger.info(f'{__name__} - info message')
>      logger.warning(f'{__name__} - warning message')
>
> if __name__ == '__main__':
>      parser = argparse.ArgumentParser(description="Script for executing data quality checks.")
>      parser.add_argument("--log-level", default='info', choices=['notset', 'debug', 'info', 'warning', 'error', 'critical'], help="set log level")
>      args = parser.parse_args()
>
>      logger.setLevel(eval(f"logging.{args.log_level.upper()}"))
>
>      log_some_messages()
>      mymodule.log_some_messages()
>
>
> #mymodule.py
> import logging
>
> from script_logging import app_logger
>
> logger = app_logger.get_logger(__name__)
>
>
> def log_some_messages():
>      logger.debug(f'{__name__} - debug message')
>      logger.info(f'{__name__} - info message')
>      logger.warning(f'{__name__} - warning message')
>
>
> #app_logger.py
> import logging
>
> _log_format = f"%(asctime)s - [%(levelname)s] - %(name)s - (%(filename)s).%(funcName)s(%(lineno)d) - %(message)s"
> _log_level = logging.DEBUG
>
> def get_stream_handler():
>      stream_handler = logging.StreamHandler()
>      stream_handler.setLevel(_log_level)
>      stream_handler.setFormatter(logging.Formatter(_log_format))
>      return stream_handler
>
> def get_logger(name):
>      logger = logging.getLogger(name)
>      logger.setLevel(_log_level)
>      logger.addHandler(get_stream_handler())
>      return logger
>
> When I run it with main.py --log-level debug I get the following output:
>
> 2021-01-25 13:21:01,151 - [DEBUG] - __main__ - (main.py).log_some_messages(10) - __main__ - debug message
> 2021-01-25 13:21:01,151 - [INFO] - __main__ - (main.py).log_some_messages(11) - __main__ - info message
> 2021-01-25 13:21:01,152 - [WARNING] - __main__ - (main.py).log_some_messages(12) - __main__ - warning message
> 2021-01-25 13:21:01,152 - [DEBUG] - mymodule - (mymodule.py).log_some_messages(10) - mymodule - debug message
> 2021-01-25 13:21:01,152 - [INFO] - mymodule - (mymodule.py).log_some_messages(11) - mymodule - info message
> 2021-01-25 13:21:01,152 - [WARNING] - mymodule - (mymodule.py).log_some_messages(12) - mymodule - warning message
>
> which is OK. If I change --log-level parameter to 'warning', than output is the following:
>
> 2021-01-25 13:22:12,760 - [WARNING] - __main__ - (main.py).log_some_messages(12) - __main__ - warning message
> 2021-01-25 13:22:12,760 - [DEBUG] - mymodule - (mymodule.py).log_some_messages(10) - mymodule - debug message
> 2021-01-25 13:22:12,761 - [INFO] - mymodule - (mymodule.py).log_some_messages(11) - mymodule - info message
> 2021-01-25 13:22:12,761 - [WARNING] - mymodule - (mymodule.py).log_some_messages(12) - mymodule - warning message
>
> As you can see, in main.py log level is set correctly, but in mymodule.py it is not.
>
> How to accept argparse.log_level parameter in if __name__ == '__main__': and propagate its value to all other modules?

You just have to set the level in the root logger. The easiest way to
achieve that is to forget about your app_logger wrapper around logging
and call

logging.basicConfig(level=yourlevel, format=yourformat)

in  main.py and to create the loggers in main and mymodule

with

logger = logging.getLogger(__name__)



From __peter__ at web.de  Wed Jan 27 16:59:23 2021
From: __peter__ at web.de (Peter Otten)
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2021 22:59:23 +0100
Subject: How to accept argparse.log_level parameter and propagate its
 value to all other modules
In-Reply-To: <e8c379a1-7a54-4ac4-b9c9-ecae6a8c4e75n@googlegroups.com>
References: <e8c379a1-7a54-4ac4-b9c9-ecae6a8c4e75n@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <c5b9f638-d95b-63eb-2056-df659c9883b6@web.de>

On 27/01/2021 20:04, Zoran wrote:
> In the same folder I have three files: main.py, app_logger.py and mymodule.py with their contents:
> 
> # main.py
> import argparse
> import app_logger
> import mymodule
> import logging
> 
> logger = app_logger.get_logger(__name__)
> 
> def log_some_messages():
>      logger.debug(f'{__name__} - debug message')
>      logger.info(f'{__name__} - info message')
>      logger.warning(f'{__name__} - warning message')
> 
> if __name__ == '__main__':
>      parser = argparse.ArgumentParser(description="Script for executing data quality checks.")
>      parser.add_argument("--log-level", default='info', choices=['notset', 'debug', 'info', 'warning', 'error', 'critical'], help="set log level")
>      args = parser.parse_args()
> 
>      logger.setLevel(eval(f"logging.{args.log_level.upper()}"))
> 
>      log_some_messages()
>      mymodule.log_some_messages()
> 
> 
> #mymodule.py
> import logging
> 
> from script_logging import app_logger
> 
> logger = app_logger.get_logger(__name__)
> 
> 
> def log_some_messages():
>      logger.debug(f'{__name__} - debug message')
>      logger.info(f'{__name__} - info message')
>      logger.warning(f'{__name__} - warning message')
> 
> 
> #app_logger.py
> import logging
> 
> _log_format = f"%(asctime)s - [%(levelname)s] - %(name)s - (%(filename)s).%(funcName)s(%(lineno)d) - %(message)s"
> _log_level = logging.DEBUG
> 
> def get_stream_handler():
>      stream_handler = logging.StreamHandler()
>      stream_handler.setLevel(_log_level)
>      stream_handler.setFormatter(logging.Formatter(_log_format))
>      return stream_handler
> 
> def get_logger(name):
>      logger = logging.getLogger(name)
>      logger.setLevel(_log_level)
>      logger.addHandler(get_stream_handler())
>      return logger
> 
> When I run it with main.py --log-level debug I get the following output:
> 
> 2021-01-25 13:21:01,151 - [DEBUG] - __main__ - (main.py).log_some_messages(10) - __main__ - debug message
> 2021-01-25 13:21:01,151 - [INFO] - __main__ - (main.py).log_some_messages(11) - __main__ - info message
> 2021-01-25 13:21:01,152 - [WARNING] - __main__ - (main.py).log_some_messages(12) - __main__ - warning message
> 2021-01-25 13:21:01,152 - [DEBUG] - mymodule - (mymodule.py).log_some_messages(10) - mymodule - debug message
> 2021-01-25 13:21:01,152 - [INFO] - mymodule - (mymodule.py).log_some_messages(11) - mymodule - info message
> 2021-01-25 13:21:01,152 - [WARNING] - mymodule - (mymodule.py).log_some_messages(12) - mymodule - warning message
> 
> which is OK. If I change --log-level parameter to 'warning', than output is the following:
> 
> 2021-01-25 13:22:12,760 - [WARNING] - __main__ - (main.py).log_some_messages(12) - __main__ - warning message
> 2021-01-25 13:22:12,760 - [DEBUG] - mymodule - (mymodule.py).log_some_messages(10) - mymodule - debug message
> 2021-01-25 13:22:12,761 - [INFO] - mymodule - (mymodule.py).log_some_messages(11) - mymodule - info message
> 2021-01-25 13:22:12,761 - [WARNING] - mymodule - (mymodule.py).log_some_messages(12) - mymodule - warning message
> 
> As you can see, in main.py log level is set correctly, but in mymodule.py it is not.
> 
> How to accept argparse.log_level parameter in if __name__ == '__main__': and propagate its value to all other modules?

You just have to set the level in the root logger. The easiest way to 
achieve that is to forget about your app_logger wrapper around logging 
and call

logging.basicConfig(level=yourlevel, format=yourformat)

in  main.py and to create the loggers in main and mymodule

with

logger = logging.getLogger(__name__)




From flaskee at protonmail.com  Wed Jan 27 17:03:47 2021
From: flaskee at protonmail.com (flaskee)
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2021 22:03:47 +0000
Subject: IDE tools to debug in Python?
In-Reply-To: <CAC6Op19L4Z0i5OT23uZumR+GAyteP=muK20a0DLjTs1Y1nL+oQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <B74CF551-9FE0-4894-8CF6-D5566D5767D0@gmail.com>
 <CAE2FW2=DaigNF+U=yyBcVf+9GEhETnwZmX6S8Hv7oTLVGCufyw@mail.gmail.com>
 <rushnt$q10$1@ciao.gmane.io>
 <CAE2FW2kUaVjPBLjsiG+7ggD4OicE2Ais2jPDkhyYYmq=behLHw@mail.gmail.com>
 <010d01774597504d-7a6fa983-caef-461b-95d0-7180103a763f-000000@ca-central-1.amazonses.com>
 <CAC6Op19L4Z0i5OT23uZumR+GAyteP=muK20a0DLjTs1Y1nL+oQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <RhD3eRUnukHAvcOI6WyzOb3TXGjSvQSVPTSOGNDvdHVJsC6cEzyabqhc8qMLCzP3-jL4GUHwR-A9OoiGiUD7m1MPIzFHv2hLBga3fv3rBBw=@protonmail.com>


Thank you J. Pic.

Out of everything today,
(and given my priority is Python/Flask debugging)
it looks like Wing IDE is something to dig into.

Thanks


Sent with ProtonMail Secure Email.

??????? Original Message ???????
On Wednesday, January 27, 2021 4:09 PM, J. Pic <jpic at yourlabs.org> wrote:

> Thonny, winpdb/winpdb-rebord, eric4, pudb, web-pdb, vy, mu, netbeans,
> eclipse, pdbpp...
>
> Also see: https://wiki.python.org/moin/PythonDebuggingTools
>
> "Changing a variable" -> that's basically evaluating code ? -> supported in
>
> all debuggers I suppose
>
> ------------------------
>
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list



From Irv at furrypants.com  Wed Jan 27 17:21:36 2021
From: Irv at furrypants.com (Irv Kalb)
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2021 14:21:36 -0800
Subject: How do you debug in Python? Coming from a Matlab and R user. I'm
 already aware of pdb.
In-Reply-To: <65AEDEA1-1A99-4FB9-8527-9447093F0856@mac.com>
References: <CAE2FW2kjBohvUzKu8OKhyA4xoSaQWQfnqZ9C9oha05kh7B6zLQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <65AEDEA1-1A99-4FB9-8527-9447093F0856@mac.com>
Message-ID: <6197C046-B7E5-47F0-A1A4-95549852EAAF@furrypants.com>

On Jan 26, 2021, at 5:28 PM, William Ray Wing via Python-list <python-list at python.org> wrote:
> 
> 
> 
>> On Jan 26, 2021, at 2:00 PM, C W <tmrsg11 at gmail.com> wrote:
>> 
>> Hello everyone,
>> 
>> I'm a long time Matlab and R user working on data science. How do you
>> troubleshooting/debugging in Python?
>> 
> 
> Another approach is to run the code in an IDE.  I happen to use Wing, but that is a coincidence.  But almost ANY IDE will let you set a break point, then single-step through your code starting at the break point and examine the values of your variables at each step.  Sometimes this is an awfully big hammer for what is a head-slapping mistake.  But it has never failed me.
> 
> 

I'm happy with the PyCharm IDE.  I created a video showing how to use the debugger in that environment.  It's available on YouTube here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cxAOSQQwDJ4 <mailto:python-list at python.org>

Irv


From kevinmwilson1956 at yahoo.com  Wed Jan 27 16:19:44 2021
From: kevinmwilson1956 at yahoo.com (Kevin M. Wilson)
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2021 21:19:44 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: For example: Question, moving a folder (T061RR7N1) containing a
 Specific file (ReadCMI), to folder: C:\\...\DUT0
References: <668571509.358864.1611782384113.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <668571509.358864.1611782384113@mail.yahoo.com>

for path, dir, files in os.walk(myDestinationFolder):
# for path, dir, files in os.walk(destfolder):
    print('The path is %s: ', path)
    print(files)
    os.chdir(mySourceFolder)
    if not os.path.isfile(myDestinationFolder + file):
    #  if not os.path.isfile(destfolder + file):
        print('The file is %s: ', file)
        shutil.copytree(mySourceFolder, myDestinationFolder)
        #  os.rename(path + '\\' + file, myDestinationFolder + file)
        #  os.rename(path + '\\' + file, destfolder + file)
        os.rename(path + '\\' + file, myDestinationFolder + file)
    elif os.path.isfile(myDestinationFolder + file):
        #  os.rename(path + '\\' + file, destfolder + file)
        shutil.copytree(mySourceFolder, myDestinationFolder)
So I would very much appreciate your ideas on the above statements!Because...I think I've got the wrong function (os.path.isfile), when I should be (s/b) using a stepped approach!Note: program allows input of ID =?T061RR7N1 (for example)1) find the folder containing "file": where folder =?T061RR7N1, and file is "ReadCMI";?if TRUE, shutil.copytree C:\\...\T061RR7N1\ReadCMI (TO) C:\\...\DUT[?], where [?] is a num from 0 - 15.2) append to?C:\\...\DUT[?]\T061RR7N1, which contains "ReadCMI"!

and would you mind telling me why this works (in every example I've found on the internet): r'C:\\anyfolder\\anyotherfolder\\'...what does the "r" signify? If it's 'read', why can't I use the 'a' for append?
KMW

"The only way to have experience is by?having?the experience"!

From tmrsg11 at gmail.com  Wed Jan 27 17:41:52 2021
From: tmrsg11 at gmail.com (C W)
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2021 17:41:52 -0500
Subject: How do you debug in Python? Coming from a Matlab and R user. I'm
 already aware of pdb.
In-Reply-To: <6197C046-B7E5-47F0-A1A4-95549852EAAF@furrypants.com>
References: <CAE2FW2kjBohvUzKu8OKhyA4xoSaQWQfnqZ9C9oha05kh7B6zLQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <65AEDEA1-1A99-4FB9-8527-9447093F0856@mac.com>
 <6197C046-B7E5-47F0-A1A4-95549852EAAF@furrypants.com>
Message-ID: <CAE2FW2mA+4qEByhSRHhijeediPC-QYqQuJ7qtbyfJJkNetvdUQ@mail.gmail.com>

Great tutorial Irv, very simple with if-else example, gets the point
across.

My main takeaway from the discussion so far is that: you can't troubleshoot
Python without some kind of breakpoint or debugger.

I suppose I can't take the functional programming debugger style like C,
Matlab, or R, and apply it to a OOP language like Python.

On Wed, Jan 27, 2021 at 5:26 PM Irv Kalb <Irv at furrypants.com> wrote:

> On Jan 26, 2021, at 5:28 PM, William Ray Wing via Python-list <
> python-list at python.org> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> >> On Jan 26, 2021, at 2:00 PM, C W <tmrsg11 at gmail.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> Hello everyone,
> >>
> >> I'm a long time Matlab and R user working on data science. How do you
> >> troubleshooting/debugging in Python?
> >>
> >
> > Another approach is to run the code in an IDE.  I happen to use Wing,
> but that is a coincidence.  But almost ANY IDE will let you set a break
> point, then single-step through your code starting at the break point and
> examine the values of your variables at each step.  Sometimes this is an
> awfully big hammer for what is a head-slapping mistake.  But it has never
> failed me.
> >
> >
>
> I'm happy with the PyCharm IDE.  I created a video showing how to use the
> debugger in that environment.  It's available on YouTube here:
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cxAOSQQwDJ4 <mailto:python-list at python.org
> >
>
> Irv
>
> --
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
>

From jpic at yourlabs.org  Wed Jan 27 17:47:20 2021
From: jpic at yourlabs.org (J. Pic)
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2021 23:47:20 +0100
Subject: IDE tools to debug in Python?
In-Reply-To: <RhD3eRUnukHAvcOI6WyzOb3TXGjSvQSVPTSOGNDvdHVJsC6cEzyabqhc8qMLCzP3-jL4GUHwR-A9OoiGiUD7m1MPIzFHv2hLBga3fv3rBBw=@protonmail.com>
References: <B74CF551-9FE0-4894-8CF6-D5566D5767D0@gmail.com>
 <CAE2FW2=DaigNF+U=yyBcVf+9GEhETnwZmX6S8Hv7oTLVGCufyw@mail.gmail.com>
 <rushnt$q10$1@ciao.gmane.io>
 <CAE2FW2kUaVjPBLjsiG+7ggD4OicE2Ais2jPDkhyYYmq=behLHw@mail.gmail.com>
 <010d01774597504d-7a6fa983-caef-461b-95d0-7180103a763f-000000@ca-central-1.amazonses.com>
 <CAC6Op19L4Z0i5OT23uZumR+GAyteP=muK20a0DLjTs1Y1nL+oQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <RhD3eRUnukHAvcOI6WyzOb3TXGjSvQSVPTSOGNDvdHVJsC6cEzyabqhc8qMLCzP3-jL4GUHwR-A9OoiGiUD7m1MPIzFHv2hLBga3fv3rBBw=@protonmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAC6Op1_FGSO4XwpG4cZ8mAgxpkUY7QWpOug-vWqT_ZPPrTWREA@mail.gmail.com>

You're most welcome flaskee, however I would recommend you try them all.
Thonny in particular because it distinguishes line from expression which I
believe is a unique feature.

Personally I have learned to love just pdb, and a whiteboard!

Le mer. 27 janv. 2021 ? 23:03, flaskee <flaskee at protonmail.com> a ?crit :

>
> Thank you J. Pic.
>
> Out of everything today,
> (and given my priority is Python/Flask debugging)
> it looks like Wing IDE is something to dig into.
>
> Thanks
>
>
> Sent with ProtonMail Secure Email.
>
> ??????? Original Message ???????
> On Wednesday, January 27, 2021 4:09 PM, J. Pic <jpic at yourlabs.org> wrote:
>
> > Thonny, winpdb/winpdb-rebord, eric4, pudb, web-pdb, vy, mu, netbeans,
> > eclipse, pdbpp...
> >
> > Also see: https://wiki.python.org/moin/PythonDebuggingTools
> >
> > "Changing a variable" -> that's basically evaluating code ? -> supported
> in
> >
> > all debuggers I suppose
> >
> > ------------------------
> >
> > https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
>
>
>

From 2QdxY4RzWzUUiLuE at potatochowder.com  Wed Jan 27 18:04:12 2021
From: 2QdxY4RzWzUUiLuE at potatochowder.com (2QdxY4RzWzUUiLuE at potatochowder.com)
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2021 17:04:12 -0600
Subject: How do you debug in Python? Coming from a Matlab and R user. I'm
 already aware of pdb.
In-Reply-To: <CAE2FW2mA+4qEByhSRHhijeediPC-QYqQuJ7qtbyfJJkNetvdUQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAE2FW2kjBohvUzKu8OKhyA4xoSaQWQfnqZ9C9oha05kh7B6zLQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <65AEDEA1-1A99-4FB9-8527-9447093F0856@mac.com>
 <6197C046-B7E5-47F0-A1A4-95549852EAAF@furrypants.com>
 <CAE2FW2mA+4qEByhSRHhijeediPC-QYqQuJ7qtbyfJJkNetvdUQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <YBHxbPD0b8M0WXuM@scrozzle>

On 2021-01-27 at 17:41:52 -0500,
C W <tmrsg11 at gmail.com> wrote:

> Great tutorial Irv, very simple with if-else example, gets the point
> across.

Disclaimer:  I did not watch the video.

> My main takeaway from the discussion so far is that: you can't
> troubleshoot Python without some kind of breakpoint or debugger.

I disagree.  :-)

Having spent a long time developing and debugging embedded systems (some
soft- or hard- real time), I believe that you can troubleshoot programs
(regardless of source language) without debuggers.  If a system can
generate output, then I (the programmer) can change that output, observe
the results, and figure out what's working and what's not.  Yes, some
systems are more painful than others, but yes, some debugging
environments are more painful than others, too.

A well placed call to print (they're not "print statements" anymore!)
can be much more enlightening and much faster than single stepping
through code in a debugger, and seeing the output from the same print
statement inside a loop can be much better than manually examining
variables iteration after iteration and trying to remember what the
value was before.

The best debugging tool, however, remains your brain.  Way before I add
a call to print or you set up your debugger, thinking about what went
wrong and where to look can solve the problems without resorting to
external tools.  :-)

From duncan at invalid.invalid  Wed Jan 27 18:41:18 2021
From: duncan at invalid.invalid (duncan smith)
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2021 23:41:18 +0000
Subject: How do you debug in Python? Coming from a Matlab and R user. I'm
 already aware of pdb.
In-Reply-To: <mailman.956.1611787326.7193.python-list@python.org>
References: <CAE2FW2kjBohvUzKu8OKhyA4xoSaQWQfnqZ9C9oha05kh7B6zLQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <65AEDEA1-1A99-4FB9-8527-9447093F0856@mac.com>
 <6197C046-B7E5-47F0-A1A4-95549852EAAF@furrypants.com>
 <CAE2FW2mA+4qEByhSRHhijeediPC-QYqQuJ7qtbyfJJkNetvdUQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.956.1611787326.7193.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <zSmQH.5$xa.4@fx47.iad>

On 27/01/2021 22:41, C W wrote:
> Great tutorial Irv, very simple with if-else example, gets the point
> across.
> 
> My main takeaway from the discussion so far is that: you can't troubleshoot
> Python without some kind of breakpoint or debugger.
> 

[snip]

Really?

Duncan

From jpic at yourlabs.org  Wed Jan 27 19:03:05 2021
From: jpic at yourlabs.org (J. Pic)
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2021 01:03:05 +0100
Subject: How do you debug in Python? Coming from a Matlab and R user. I'm
 already aware of pdb.
In-Reply-To: <zSmQH.5$xa.4@fx47.iad>
References: <CAE2FW2kjBohvUzKu8OKhyA4xoSaQWQfnqZ9C9oha05kh7B6zLQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <65AEDEA1-1A99-4FB9-8527-9447093F0856@mac.com>
 <6197C046-B7E5-47F0-A1A4-95549852EAAF@furrypants.com>
 <CAE2FW2mA+4qEByhSRHhijeediPC-QYqQuJ7qtbyfJJkNetvdUQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.956.1611787326.7193.python-list@python.org> <zSmQH.5$xa.4@fx47.iad>
Message-ID: <CAC6Op1-vjwU0AkARqpDrTULha4TO8NoGBK+F5sanNDsJmjU7VQ@mail.gmail.com>

Also

- https://github.com/cool-RR/pysnooper
- https://github.com/andy-landy/traceback_with_variables

From torriem at gmail.com  Wed Jan 27 19:56:26 2021
From: torriem at gmail.com (Michael Torrie)
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2021 17:56:26 -0700
Subject: How do you debug in Python? Coming from a Matlab and R user. I'm
 already aware of pdb.
In-Reply-To: <CAE2FW2k79UY__m_T8w7HrqrATXhg0A0i_68jEH4M-pPj-O53Fg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAE2FW2kjBohvUzKu8OKhyA4xoSaQWQfnqZ9C9oha05kh7B6zLQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <ruqbc3$4h5$1@ciao.gmane.io> <9B50E52F-F565-4C78-B736-A7589DE5A433@leafe.com>
 <CAE2FW2nNP2GfM7mJM8aTg9-HCKG6iCEvs46L8R8PdC1N-S0xhQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <667489a6-2322-42f8-3feb-719c0adeb906@gmail.com>
 <CAE2FW2kVX_7WUW4Eq77_bn1OGt8FMRwE1wjYQe-s_EH+AAWR6w@mail.gmail.com>
 <db7a4239-cc7d-fe2c-49fe-3abc6ca1d050@gmail.com>
 <CAE2FW2k79UY__m_T8w7HrqrATXhg0A0i_68jEH4M-pPj-O53Fg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <38e75399-da5f-5f81-37b7-273b02599d3c@gmail.com>

On 1/27/21 11:42 AM, C W wrote:
> For learning purposes, here's the files:
> https://www.dropbox.com/sh/a3iy40rcvib4uvj/AAADmlM2i6NquWC1SV0nZfnDa?dl=0
> 
> Yes, you are correct about "employee" and "person" discrepancies. For now,
> the list comprehension is where I get stuck.
> 
> I'd like to know how the experts on here are approaching and debugging
> this.
> 
> Bonus if no debugger or breakpoint. Just the good ol' run the function and
> evaluate/print output for problems.

Like I said, the key is in the traceback.  It told you exactly what the
problem was. And seeing your full code I can now tell you why.  There is
no "created_at" field in the person dict (I noticed it's now called neo
in the code you just posted).  The dict is created directly from JSON
and there is no "created_at field anywhere in the JSON, which is why
you're getting that error.

I don't really understand much of the code you posted. There doesn't
seem to be any link between the MySQL database and the NEODatabase class
and instances.  Something is missing and it looks vaguely java-esque,
which may not be your best way to work in Python. I'm not sure what
you're trying to do so I can't really say much about it.

If you want to play with a database abstraction, there are several
libraries available, including SQLchemy.

From alan.gauld at yahoo.co.uk  Wed Jan 27 18:32:59 2021
From: alan.gauld at yahoo.co.uk (Alan Gauld)
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2021 23:32:59 +0000
Subject: How do you debug in Python? Coming from a Matlab and R user. I'm
 already aware of pdb.
In-Reply-To: <CAE2FW2k79UY__m_T8w7HrqrATXhg0A0i_68jEH4M-pPj-O53Fg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAE2FW2kjBohvUzKu8OKhyA4xoSaQWQfnqZ9C9oha05kh7B6zLQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <ruqbc3$4h5$1@ciao.gmane.io> <9B50E52F-F565-4C78-B736-A7589DE5A433@leafe.com>
 <CAE2FW2nNP2GfM7mJM8aTg9-HCKG6iCEvs46L8R8PdC1N-S0xhQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <667489a6-2322-42f8-3feb-719c0adeb906@gmail.com>
 <CAE2FW2kVX_7WUW4Eq77_bn1OGt8FMRwE1wjYQe-s_EH+AAWR6w@mail.gmail.com>
 <db7a4239-cc7d-fe2c-49fe-3abc6ca1d050@gmail.com>
 <CAE2FW2k79UY__m_T8w7HrqrATXhg0A0i_68jEH4M-pPj-O53Fg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <rust7b$138r$1@ciao.gmane.io>

On 27/01/2021 18:42, C W wrote:

> I'd like to know how the experts on here are approaching and debugging
> this.
> 
> Bonus if no debugger or breakpoint. Just the good ol' run the function and
> evaluate/print output for problems.

One option you may like and nobody seems to have mentioned
yet is to use the interactive prompt.

Simply run the program with the -i flag and the program will stay in the
interpreter at the >>> prompt. Similar to what you seem to be used to
doing in R...

>From there you can print the current value of variables, inspect objects
etc. I find it useful sometimes when I'm not on my desktop PC, although
usually I jump into winpdb or similar if I need that kind of support.

dubuggers and breakpoints combined with watchpoints are very powerful
tools and easy to learn. (Although I may be pre-disposed since my first
job after uni' was to white-box test 500K lines of C using a VAX command
line debugger in batch mode. I wrote over 100K lines of debugger commands!)

-- 
Alan G
Author of the Learn to Program web site
http://www.alan-g.me.uk/
http://www.amazon.com/author/alan_gauld
Follow my photo-blog on Flickr at:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/alangauldphotos



From alan.gauld at yahoo.co.uk  Wed Jan 27 18:39:35 2021
From: alan.gauld at yahoo.co.uk (Alan Gauld)
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2021 23:39:35 +0000
Subject: How do you debug in Python? Coming from a Matlab and R user. I'm
 already aware of pdb.
In-Reply-To: <YBHxbPD0b8M0WXuM@scrozzle>
References: <CAE2FW2kjBohvUzKu8OKhyA4xoSaQWQfnqZ9C9oha05kh7B6zLQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <65AEDEA1-1A99-4FB9-8527-9447093F0856@mac.com>
 <6197C046-B7E5-47F0-A1A4-95549852EAAF@furrypants.com>
 <CAE2FW2mA+4qEByhSRHhijeediPC-QYqQuJ7qtbyfJJkNetvdUQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <YBHxbPD0b8M0WXuM@scrozzle>
Message-ID: <rustjn$qlt$1@ciao.gmane.io>

On 27/01/2021 23:04, 2QdxY4RzWzUUiLuE at potatochowder.com wrote:

> systems are more painful than others, but yes, some debugging
> environments are more painful than others, too.

Very true! but a good debugger is a godsend. Howevder...

> A well placed call to print (they're not "print statements" anymore!)
> can be much more enlightening and much faster than single stepping
> through code in a debugger,

If you are single stepping more than 2 or 3 lines then you
aren't using the debugger properly!

Use breakpoints(selected by brain power!) and watches. The watches
are like print statements but don;t modify the source code
(nothing to remove later!)

Anytime I find myself hitting the step button more that a few
times I know I'm not using the debugger effectively and rethink.

>  and seeing the output from the same print
> statement inside a loop can be much better than manually examining
> variables iteration after iteration and trying to remember what the
> value was before.

So don't do that, use the debugger. Most of them have conditional
breakpoints that will stop only when you need to.

> The best debugging tool, however, remains your brain.  

Amen to that, regardless of any software tool used.


-- 
Alan G
Author of the Learn to Program web site
http://www.alan-g.me.uk/
http://www.amazon.com/author/alan_gauld
Follow my photo-blog on Flickr at:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/alangauldphotos



From alan.gauld at yahoo.co.uk  Wed Jan 27 18:44:01 2021
From: alan.gauld at yahoo.co.uk (Alan Gauld)
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2021 23:44:01 +0000
Subject: IDE tools to debug in Python?
In-Reply-To: <403a855f-e0fa-36a9-d570-d4c480291553@schwertberger.de>
References: <B74CF551-9FE0-4894-8CF6-D5566D5767D0@gmail.com>
 <CAE2FW2=DaigNF+U=yyBcVf+9GEhETnwZmX6S8Hv7oTLVGCufyw@mail.gmail.com>
 <403a855f-e0fa-36a9-d570-d4c480291553@schwertberger.de>
Message-ID: <rusts1$67s$1@ciao.gmane.io>

On 27/01/2021 19:27, Dietmar Schwertberger wrote:

> Python is an interactive language. You can develop a lot while working 
> on a Python console. Then copy and paste into a program.

Absolutely, the humble interactive prompt is often overlooked
as a development tool. It's not as good as the "evaluate
expression" tool in the Smalltalk workspace, say, but it's close.

I habitually use 3 windows: - an editor, a shell command
line (to execute the code) and an interactive Python prompt.

-- 
Alan G
Author of the Learn to Program web site
http://www.alan-g.me.uk/
http://www.amazon.com/author/alan_gauld
Follow my photo-blog on Flickr at:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/alangauldphotos



From jsf80238 at gmail.com  Wed Jan 27 22:33:48 2021
From: jsf80238 at gmail.com (Jason Friedman)
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2021 20:33:48 -0700
Subject: For example: Question, moving a folder (T061RR7N1) containing a
 Specific file (ReadCMI), to folder: C:\\...\DUT0
In-Reply-To: <668571509.358864.1611782384113@mail.yahoo.com>
References: <668571509.358864.1611782384113.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
 <668571509.358864.1611782384113@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <CANy1k1jXRDBH_MGq07=FV0kXXRyjPQpNM1yT1iLa3BB0xTyu6w@mail.gmail.com>

>
>
> for path, dir, files in os.walk(myDestinationFolder):
> # for path, dir, files in os.walk(destfolder):
>     print('The path is %s: ', path)
>     print(files)
>     os.chdir(mySourceFolder)
>     if not os.path.isfile(myDestinationFolder + file):
>     #  if not os.path.isfile(destfolder + file):
>         print('The file is %s: ', file)
>         shutil.copytree(mySourceFolder, myDestinationFolder)
>         #  os.rename(path + '\\' + file, myDestinationFolder + file)
>         #  os.rename(path + '\\' + file, destfolder + file)
>         os.rename(path + '\\' + file, myDestinationFolder + file)
>     elif os.path.isfile(myDestinationFolder + file):
>         #  os.rename(path + '\\' + file, destfolder + file)
>         shutil.copytree(mySourceFolder, myDestinationFolder)
> So I would very much appreciate your ideas on the above
> statements!Because...I think I've got the wrong function (os.path.isfile),
> when I should be (s/b) using a stepped approach!Note: program allows input
> of ID = T061RR7N1 (for example)1) find the folder containing "file": where
> folder = T061RR7N1, and file is "ReadCMI"; if TRUE, shutil.copytree
> C:\\...\T061RR7N1\ReadCMI (TO) C:\\...\DUT[?], where [?] is a num from 0 -
> 15.2) append to C:\\...\DUT[?]\T061RR7N1, which contains "ReadCMI"!
>
> and would you mind telling me why this works (in every example I've found
> on the internet): r'C:\\anyfolder\\anyotherfolder\\'...what does the "r"
> signify? If it's 'read', why can't I use the 'a' for append?
>

A few answers and then a question ...

"r" in this context is a raw literal, see for example
https://www.journaldev.com/23598/python-raw-string.

And you probably don't need it. Python and Windows are happy with
"c:/path/to/file.txt" for a file path.
Some of your code might look end up looking like:
full_path = parent + "/" + file

See also the os.path.join method (
https://docs.python.org/3/library/os.path.html#os.path.join) and the
pathlib module (
https://docs.python.org/3/library/pathlib.html#module-pathlib).

If you truly want to move the folder, as opposed to copying it, you can use
shutil.move.

Does the target folder already exist? What is the rule for determining what
the target folder should be named?

From zljubisic at gmail.com  Thu Jan 28 00:41:40 2021
From: zljubisic at gmail.com (Zoran)
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2021 21:41:40 -0800 (PST)
Subject: How to accept argparse.log_level parameter and propagate its
 value to all other modules
In-Reply-To: <mailman.952.1611784769.7193.python-list@python.org>
References: <c5b9f638-d95b-63eb-2056-df659c9883b6@web.de>
 <e8c379a1-7a54-4ac4-b9c9-ecae6a8c4e75n@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.952.1611784769.7193.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <07f90418-5db2-44b2-b880-5ee0062ec6e9n@googlegroups.com>

Yes you are right. I changed the files:

# main.py
import argparse
import mymodule
import logging

logger = logging.getLogger(__name__)

def log_some_messages():
    logger.debug(f'{__name__} - debug message')
    logger.info(f'{__name__} - info message')
    logger.warning(f'{__name__} - warning message')

if __name__ == '__main__':
    parser = argparse.ArgumentParser(description="Script for executing data quality checks.")
    parser.add_argument("--log-level", default='info', choices=['notset', 'debug', 'info', 'warning', 'error', 'critical'], help="set log level")
    args = parser.parse_args()

    log_level = logging.getLevelName(args.log_level.upper())
    logging.basicConfig(level=log_level, format=f"%(asctime)s - [%(levelname)s] - %(name)s - (%(filename)s).%(funcName)s(%(lineno)d) - %(message)s")
    logger.setLevel(log_level)

    log_some_messages()
    mymodule.log_some_messages()

#mymodule.py
import logging

logger = logging.getLogger(__name__)


def log_some_messages():
    logger.debug(f'{__name__} - debug message')
    logger.info(f'{__name__} - info message')
    logger.warning(f'{__name__} - warning message')

and everything works as it should.
I was milsleaded by this article https://towardsdatascience.com/8-advanced-python-logging-features-that-you-shouldnt-miss-a68a5ef1b62d

Thanks.


From grant.b.edwards at gmail.com  Wed Jan 27 22:09:12 2021
From: grant.b.edwards at gmail.com (Grant Edwards)
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2021 03:09:12 -0000 (UTC)
Subject: How do you debug in Python? Coming from a Matlab and R user.
 I'm already aware of pdb.
References: <CAE2FW2kjBohvUzKu8OKhyA4xoSaQWQfnqZ9C9oha05kh7B6zLQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <65AEDEA1-1A99-4FB9-8527-9447093F0856@mac.com>
 <6197C046-B7E5-47F0-A1A4-95549852EAAF@furrypants.com>
 <CAE2FW2mA+4qEByhSRHhijeediPC-QYqQuJ7qtbyfJJkNetvdUQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <rut9so$21b$1@ciao.gmane.io>

On 2021-01-27, C W <tmrsg11 at gmail.com> wrote:

> My main takeaway from the discussion so far is that: you can't troubleshoot
> Python without some kind of breakpoint or debugger.

How odd. I do it all the time.

--
Grant


From antoon.pardon at vub.be  Thu Jan 28 02:50:14 2021
From: antoon.pardon at vub.be (Antoon Pardon)
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2021 08:50:14 +0100
Subject: How do you debug in Python? Coming from a Matlab and R user. I'm
 already aware of pdb.
In-Reply-To: <CAGGBd_p6eekBEKv56vy=z99TgU0_31i5sRAGuaapYoCoTEg5yg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAE2FW2kjBohvUzKu8OKhyA4xoSaQWQfnqZ9C9oha05kh7B6zLQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAGGBd_ox3DKsOXVRivN9OkVymX-EG9QYk0kKCKxNGe0awYufmw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAGGBd_p6eekBEKv56vy=z99TgU0_31i5sRAGuaapYoCoTEg5yg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <c2c24327-47a6-5d49-36c5-673144e65e78@vub.be>



Op 27/01/21 om 05:17 schreef Dan Stromberg:
> On Tue, Jan 26, 2021 at 8:13 PM Dan Stromberg <drsalists at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On Tue, Jan 26, 2021 at 4:01 PM C W <tmrsg11 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Hello everyone,
>>>
>>> I'm a long time Matlab and R user working on data science. How do you
>>> troubleshooting/debugging in Python?
>>>
>> I frequently read tracebacks and think about what's up in the code.
>>
>> I also often add print functions or logging - empiricism often beats
>> theorizing when the problems are weird.
>>
>> And once in a while I will use pudb - it's probably a pretty good fit for
>> a vim user like me, both being curses-based.  pdb is sad.  There are other
>> debuggers for Python:
>> https://wiki.python.org/moin/PythonDebuggingTools
>>
> BTW, there's a new tool I haven't tried yet, that sounds pretty
> interesting, especially for newcomers: It's called "friendly traceback" and
> can be found at https://pypi.org/project/friendly-traceback/
>
> Oh, and of course google search is a terrific tool for deciphering error
> messages.
I had a look at that and I think I still would prefer this recipe:
https://code.activestate.com/recipes/52215-get-more-information-from-tracebacks/


From pieter-l at vanoostrum.org  Thu Jan 28 04:20:02 2021
From: pieter-l at vanoostrum.org (Pieter van Oostrum)
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2021 10:20:02 +0100
Subject: Jupyter notebooks to A4 (again)
References: <i7680qFm1ljU1@mid.individual.net>
Message-ID: <lxzh0tv2nx.fsf@cochabamba.vanoostrum.org>

Martin Sch??n <martin.schoon at gmail.com> writes:

> Hello all,
>
> Some years ago I asked about exporting notebooks to pdf in
> A4 rather than US Letter. I got help, rather detailed
> instructions from you in general and Piet von Oostrum in

Who now calls himself Pieter van Oostrum, just like his passport says :)
-- 
Pieter van Oostrum
www: http://pieter.vanoostrum.org/
PGP key: [8DAE142BE17999C4]

From skip.montanaro at gmail.com  Thu Jan 28 06:27:58 2021
From: skip.montanaro at gmail.com (Skip Montanaro)
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2021 05:27:58 -0600
Subject: IDE tools to debug in Python?
In-Reply-To: <rusts1$67s$1@ciao.gmane.io>
References: <B74CF551-9FE0-4894-8CF6-D5566D5767D0@gmail.com>
 <CAE2FW2=DaigNF+U=yyBcVf+9GEhETnwZmX6S8Hv7oTLVGCufyw@mail.gmail.com>
 <403a855f-e0fa-36a9-d570-d4c480291553@schwertberger.de>
 <rusts1$67s$1@ciao.gmane.io>
Message-ID: <CANc-5Uz_jGzu9CT2TqJ4Vkdir2xfTVFVuNXdUgg0VCaXQ3_KUw@mail.gmail.com>

>
> > Python is an interactive language. You can develop a lot while working
> > on a Python console. Then copy and paste into a program.
>
> Absolutely, the humble interactive prompt is often overlooked
> as a development tool. It's not as good as the "evaluate
> expression" tool in the Smalltalk workspace, say, but it's close.
>

In an earlier reply I failed to mention Jupyter. It's a pretty awesome
environment. Sort of takes the whole concept of "just insert prints" to a
new level. I started using it a bit at my last job for financial stuff, and
still mostly use it for that, but it's another viable option.

Skip

>

From mal at europython.eu  Thu Jan 28 06:55:33 2021
From: mal at europython.eu (M.-A. Lemburg)
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2021 12:55:33 +0100
Subject: EuroPython 2021: Getting ready
Message-ID: <0fe9d035-d68b-53eb-5e5b-640de0c73c36@europython.eu>

We're happy to announce the pre-launch website for this year's
EuroPython 2021:

                         * EuroPython 2021 *

                   https://ep2021.europython.eu/

The site comes with an FAQ page, which lists all the information we have
for you at the moment. We're repeating the most important part here:

EuroPython 2021 will be held online from July 26 - August 1, 2021,
using the following structure:

- two workshop/training days (July 26 - 27)
- three conference days (July 28 - 30)
- two sprint days (July 31 - August 1)

The next steps are preparing the main conference website, adding
content, organizing the call for papers (CFP), setting up the ticket
system, the financial aid program, getting everything tested and
deployed.

Want to join the fun ?
----------------------

We'll have busy weeks ahead of us. If you want to help, please consider
contacting us with details on where you would like to contribute. Please
write to volunteers at europython.eu.

Distributed conferencing
------------------------

We are also looking into setting up, what we call EuroPython Nodes,
where attendees can join small groups around the world to attend
EuroPython 2021 together. Please see our FAQ entry for details. The idea
is still in flux and we'd like to get some feedback from user groups or
companies interested in participating:

    https://ep2021.europython.eu/faq/#nodes


PS: We have also moved our blog off of Tumblr and onto our own
infrastructure. Hope you like the new design.


Help spread the word
--------------------

Please help us spread this message by sharing it on your social
networks as widely as possible. Thank you !

Link to the blog post:

https://blog.europython.eu/europython-2021-getting-ready/

Tweet:

https://twitter.com/cargodusoir/status/1354756310328356865


Enjoy,
--
EuroPython 2021 Team
https://www.europython-society.org/


From robin at reportlab.com  Thu Jan 28 05:53:51 2021
From: robin at reportlab.com (Robin Becker)
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2021 10:53:51 +0000
Subject: idlelib re-use
Message-ID: <1dca24e6-3d43-4cd5-be6d-29e8e29097c0@everest.reportlab.co.uk>

I googled in vain for instances where parts of idlelib are re-used in a simplistic way. I would like to use the editor 
functionality in a tkinter window and also probably run code in a subprocess.

Are there any examples around that do these sorts of things?
--
Robin Becker


From kladit at arcor.de  Thu Jan 28 04:48:34 2021
From: kladit at arcor.de (Klaus Dittrich)
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2021 10:48:34 +0100
Subject: _Py_FatalErrorFunc not found
Message-ID: <4a643ebd-0e5d-4853-72fc-7f4f449a7295@arcor.de>


I need some help.

hplip as of late complains :

File "/usr/bin/hp-scan", line 40, in <module>
     import scanext
ImportError: /usr/lib/python3.9/site-packages/scanext.so: undefined 
symbol: _Py_FatalErrorFunc

Which module defines this _Py_FatalErrorFunc?

Or has the name of this function changed in python-3.9.1?
If yes what is its name now?

hplip version is the latest, hplip-3.20.11, but they have not taken 
notice of the problem as far as i know.

Any help is much appreciated
--
Klaus

From barry at barrys-emacs.org  Thu Jan 28 15:49:05 2021
From: barry at barrys-emacs.org (Barry Scott)
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2021 20:49:05 +0000
Subject: _Py_FatalErrorFunc not found
In-Reply-To: <4a643ebd-0e5d-4853-72fc-7f4f449a7295@arcor.de>
References: <4a643ebd-0e5d-4853-72fc-7f4f449a7295@arcor.de>
Message-ID: <E6A607FD-8C7B-4D4C-972C-0F3283A118D2@barrys-emacs.org>



> On 28 Jan 2021, at 09:48, Klaus Dittrich <kladit at arcor.de> wrote:
> 
> 
> I need some help.
> 
> hplip as of late complains :
> 
> File "/usr/bin/hp-scan", line 40, in <module>
>    import scanext
> ImportError: /usr/lib/python3.9/site-packages/scanext.so: undefined symbol: _Py_FatalErrorFunc
> 
> Which module defines this _Py_FatalErrorFunc?

Python itself defines this. Given this message you have installed scannext.so that was not
built against python3.9. Get a python 3.9 version of the package.

> 
> Or has the name of this function changed in python-3.9.1?
> If yes what is its name now?

Is this code you compiled? If so when you compile against pyton 3.9 dev files you will see errors.

> 
> hplip version is the latest, hplip-3.20.11, but they have not taken notice of the problem as far as i know.
> 
> Any help is much appreciated

Barry

> --
> Klaus
> -- 
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
> 


From martin.schoon at gmail.com  Thu Jan 28 16:41:04 2021
From: martin.schoon at gmail.com (Martin =?UTF-8?Q?Sch=C3=B6=C3=B6n?=)
Date: 28 Jan 2021 21:41:04 GMT
Subject: Jupyter notebooks to A4 (again)
References: <i7680qFm1ljU1@mid.individual.net>
 <lxzh0tv2nx.fsf@cochabamba.vanoostrum.org>
Message-ID: <i7gpbgFo07uU1@mid.individual.net>

Den 2021-01-28 skrev Pieter van Oostrum <pieter-l at vanoostrum.org>:
> Martin Sch??n <martin.schoon at gmail.com> writes:
>
>> Hello all,
>>
>> Some years ago I asked about exporting notebooks to pdf in
>> A4 rather than US Letter. I got help, rather detailed
>> instructions from you in general and Piet von Oostrum in
>
> Who now calls himself Pieter van Oostrum, just like his passport says :)

Sorry, my bad.

Any ideas regarding my question?

/Martin

From martin.schoon at gmail.com  Thu Jan 28 16:49:40 2021
From: martin.schoon at gmail.com (Martin =?UTF-8?Q?Sch=C3=B6=C3=B6n?=)
Date: 28 Jan 2021 21:49:40 GMT
Subject: Jupyter notebooks to A4 (again)
References: <i7680qFm1ljU1@mid.individual.net>
 <CANevj7uBK-N7ZTMUikGjG8GC-zaL-0auLO+OhmGWCtMN7nrK1A@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.912.1611585337.7193.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <i7gprkFo07uU2@mid.individual.net>

Den 2021-01-25 skrev tommy yama <bluebox03 at gmail.com>:
> Hi Martin,
>
> I noticed that i did use the same ,
> formats are mentioned in git already.
>
> https://github.com/jupyter/nbconvert
>
Are you telling me there are instruction for how to get A4paper
format there? I have looked around but...

/Martin

From tjreedy at udel.edu  Thu Jan 28 14:57:31 2021
From: tjreedy at udel.edu (Terry Reedy)
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2021 14:57:31 -0500
Subject: idlelib re-use
In-Reply-To: <1dca24e6-3d43-4cd5-be6d-29e8e29097c0@everest.reportlab.co.uk>
References: <1dca24e6-3d43-4cd5-be6d-29e8e29097c0@everest.reportlab.co.uk>
Message-ID: <ruv4vc$hoq$1@ciao.gmane.io>

On 1/28/2021 5:53 AM, Robin Becker wrote:
> I googled in vain for instances where parts of idlelib are re-used in a 
> simplistic way. I would like to use the editor functionality in a 
> tkinter window and also probably run code in a subprocess.
> 
> Are there any examples around that do these sorts of things?

turtledemo reuses IDLE's colorizer and read-only textviews.  I have seen 
occasional hints on stackoverflow of other such uses.

One barrier to reuse is that the parts are highly interconnected, with 
numerous import loops.  (Changing the form of some imports from 'import 
x' to 'from x import y' can make IDLE startup fail.)  Some objects, like 
EditorWindow, are too monolithic.  You cannot put a toplevel inside 
another toplevel.

Another, for those thinking long term, is that implementation modules in 
idlelib are defined as private since 3.6 (PEP-434, idlelib.__init__).  I 
pushed for this in order to be able to refactor to reduce 
interconnections, and break some things apart, and also to switch to ttk 
widgets.

For instance, breaking EditorFrame apart from EditorWindow would allow 
me to put multiple editors on multiple tabs of a notebook in an 
application window.  It would also allow others to put an editor window 
in their tkinter window.


-- 
Terry Jan Reedy


From bluebox03 at gmail.com  Fri Jan 29 02:35:13 2021
From: bluebox03 at gmail.com (tommy yama)
Date: Fri, 29 Jan 2021 16:35:13 +0900
Subject: Jupyter notebooks to A4 (again)
In-Reply-To: <i7gprkFo07uU2@mid.individual.net>
References: <i7680qFm1ljU1@mid.individual.net>
 <CANevj7uBK-N7ZTMUikGjG8GC-zaL-0auLO+OhmGWCtMN7nrK1A@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.912.1611585337.7193.python-list@python.org>
 <i7gprkFo07uU2@mid.individual.net>
Message-ID: <CANevj7sYY81UehuB2LuVd2NtWpFyXPMDuhdRFaPs4dUxgSVP8Q@mail.gmail.com>

Hi,

A4article is not indicated in git as you had a look. :(
Maybe that format (A4article) was depreciated already?

On Fri, Jan 29, 2021 at 6:52 AM Martin Sch??n <martin.schoon at gmail.com>
wrote:

> Den 2021-01-25 skrev tommy yama <bluebox03 at gmail.com>:
> > Hi Martin,
> >
> > I noticed that i did use the same ,
> > formats are mentioned in git already.
> >
> > https://github.com/jupyter/nbconvert
> >
> Are you telling me there are instruction for how to get A4paper
> format there? I have looked around but...
>
> /Martin
> --
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
>

From robin at reportlab.com  Fri Jan 29 08:01:42 2021
From: robin at reportlab.com (Robin Becker)
Date: Fri, 29 Jan 2021 13:01:42 +0000
Subject: idlelib re-use
In-Reply-To: <ruv4vc$hoq$1@ciao.gmane.io>
References: <1dca24e6-3d43-4cd5-be6d-29e8e29097c0@everest.reportlab.co.uk>
 <ruv4vc$hoq$1@ciao.gmane.io>
Message-ID: <7c5f8bec-6ac5-4734-bdd5-c4d251be51b6@everest.reportlab.co.uk>

Thanks,

On 28/01/2021 19:57, Terry Reedy wrote:
> On 1/28/2021 5:53 AM, Robin Becker wrote:
>> I googled in vain for instances where parts of idlelib are re-used in a simplistic way. I would like to use the editor 
>> functionality in a tkinter window and also probably run code in a subprocess.
>>
>> Are there any examples around that do these sorts of things?
> 
> turtledemo reuses IDLE's colorizer and read-only textviews.? I have seen occasional hints on stackoverflow of other such 
> uses.
> 
> One barrier to reuse is that the parts are highly interconnected, with numerous import loops.? (Changing the form of 
> some imports from 'import x' to 'from x import y' can make IDLE startup fail.)? Some objects, like EditorWindow, are too 
> monolithic.? You cannot put a toplevel inside another toplevel.
> 

yes I found this out trying to reuse the editor window and shell.

> Another, for those thinking long term, is that implementation modules in idlelib are defined as private since 3.6 
> (PEP-434, idlelib.__init__).? I pushed for this in order to be able to refactor to reduce interconnections, and break 
> some things apart, and also to switch to ttk widgets.
> 
> For instance, breaking EditorFrame apart from EditorWindow would allow me to put multiple editors on multiple tabs of a 
> notebook in an application window.? It would also allow others to put an editor window in their tkinter window.

+1
--
Robin Becker


From rlleravega at gmail.com  Fri Jan 29 13:29:59 2021
From: rlleravega at gmail.com (Rafael Llera)
Date: Fri, 29 Jan 2021 14:29:59 -0400
Subject: Reinstalling
Message-ID: <CALnfhi=PtKBvjUnK0bGXT3B=Mo786ZDbP3tmVktmW7LbPezYtA@mail.gmail.com>

Good day;

I installed Python3.9.1 and PyCharm two days ago and did a basic tutorial
and all went well.  My laptop got glitchy and I decided to uninstall and
reinstall both apps (don't ask).

Now I am having problems starting a project with the interpreter,  I cannot
find python3.

I just uninstalled both apps again and found a lot of *.pyc files, my
questions would it help to delete them all before reinstalling again, or is
this a different issue.  thank you in advance.

best regards,
Rafael

From mats at wichmann.us  Fri Jan 29 15:14:54 2021
From: mats at wichmann.us (Mats Wichmann)
Date: Fri, 29 Jan 2021 13:14:54 -0700
Subject: Reinstalling
In-Reply-To: <CALnfhi=PtKBvjUnK0bGXT3B=Mo786ZDbP3tmVktmW7LbPezYtA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CALnfhi=PtKBvjUnK0bGXT3B=Mo786ZDbP3tmVktmW7LbPezYtA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <d16857e5-755a-e87b-ae8e-59142c657c34@wichmann.us>

On 1/29/21 11:29 AM, Rafael Llera wrote:
> Good day;
> 
> I installed Python3.9.1 and PyCharm two days ago and did a basic tutorial
> and all went well.  My laptop got glitchy and I decided to uninstall and
> reinstall both apps (don't ask).
> 
> Now I am having problems starting a project with the interpreter,  I cannot
> find python3.
> 
> I just uninstalled both apps again and found a lot of *.pyc files, my
> questions would it help to delete them all before reinstalling again, or is
> this a different issue.  thank you in advance.

different issue. not finding the interpreter is pretty much always a 
path issue.

You don't say which operating system you're using.  There are pages for 
the three main ones in the docs that might help, linked off of here:

https://docs.python.org/3/using/

If this is a problem *inside* PyCharm, you probably just have to 
re-teach it where to find an interpreter, whether to use a virtualenv, 
etc. PyCharm has decent enough docs on that if you just look for 
interpreter.





From Bischoop at vimart.net  Sat Jan 30 11:50:07 2021
From: Bischoop at vimart.net (Bischoop)
Date: Sat, 30 Jan 2021 16:50:07 -0000 (UTC)
Subject: Response for PING in ircbot.
Message-ID: <slrns1b3hv.4af.Bischoop@vimart.net>



Got problem with responding for Ping, tried so many ways to response
and always end up with time out or other error. This time:

ERROR :(Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
Traceback (most recent call last):
    s.send(bytes('PONG ' + data.split()[1], 'UTF-8'))
BrokenPipeError: [Errno 32] Broken pipe

while True:
    time.sleep(2)
    data=s.recv(2040).decode('utf8')
    data = data.strip("\n\r")
    print(data)
    if data.find ("PING :"):
        s.send(bytes('PONG ' + data.split()[1], 'UTF-8'))

--
Thanks

From chomssky2001 at yahoo.co.uk  Sat Jan 30 08:56:38 2021
From: chomssky2001 at yahoo.co.uk (jackson kwame)
Date: Sat, 30 Jan 2021 13:56:38 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: Python lunch and file accessing challenges
References: <566294276.635428.1612014998967.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <566294276.635428.1612014998967@mail.yahoo.com>

?Hi

I'm new to Python and currently taking part in a Data Science course. Python is the main coding/programming language for the course. We were guided to download the Python application through Anaconda which worked. I have been using Jupyther through a browser to practice Python exercises. However anytime we are given an assignment in Python and I download, it doesn't open in Python.?


How can I lunch Python on my PC and secondly how can I open Python files on my PC.??


Thank you.


David

From rosuav at gmail.com  Sat Jan 30 13:31:06 2021
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Sun, 31 Jan 2021 05:31:06 +1100
Subject: Python lunch and file accessing challenges
In-Reply-To: <566294276.635428.1612014998967@mail.yahoo.com>
References: <566294276.635428.1612014998967.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
 <566294276.635428.1612014998967@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmqtcp7X6NfeB7e=gAH7Pc2QsBYjGhKNZd2p5rEWWrJmgw@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Jan 31, 2021 at 5:26 AM jackson kwame via Python-list
<python-list at python.org> wrote:
>
>  Hi
>
> I'm new to Python and currently taking part in a Data Science course. Python is the main coding/programming language for the course. We were guided to download the Python application through Anaconda which worked. I have been using Jupyther through a browser to practice Python exercises. However anytime we are given an assignment in Python and I download, it doesn't open in Python.
>
>
> How can I lunch Python on my PC and secondly how can I open Python files on my PC.
>

I would recommend looking in your Start menu for Idle, for a start.

There are quite a few ways to have lunch with Python, although most of
them would end up with the python having lunch with you. So I would
recommend looking through your course's instructions for how they
advise you to run things. Are you supposed to use a text editor and
then run a script? Are you supposed to work interactively?

ChrisA

From cs at cskk.id.au  Sat Jan 30 16:24:45 2021
From: cs at cskk.id.au (Cameron Simpson)
Date: Sun, 31 Jan 2021 08:24:45 +1100
Subject: Response for PING in ircbot.
In-Reply-To: <slrns1b3hv.4af.Bischoop@vimart.net>
References: <slrns1b3hv.4af.Bischoop@vimart.net>
Message-ID: <YBXOnfXA5+9meYzA@cskk.homeip.net>

On 30Jan2021 16:50, Bischoop <Bischoop at vimart.net> wrote:
>Got problem with responding for Ping, tried so many ways to response
>and always end up with time out or other error. This time:
>
>ERROR :(Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
>Traceback (most recent call last):
>    s.send(bytes('PONG ' + data.split()[1], 'UTF-8'))
>BrokenPipeError: [Errno 32] Broken pipe

This says you're getting EPIPE trying to send. What that means may 
depend on how your socket was set up, which you do not show. Is it a 
stream or a datagram, for example?

Let's look at the documentation for "send". No, not the docs.python.org 
documentation, but the underlying system call because the Python socket 
module is a very thin wrapper for the operating system socket 
operations.

I do not know your operating system, so I'm looking on a Linux system 
using the command "man 2 send" (which might be spelled "man -s 2 send" 
on some platforms):

Right off the bat it says:

    The send() call may be used only when the  socket  is  in  a
    connected state  (so  that the intended recipient is known).

    The send() call may be used only when the  socket  is  in  a
    onnected state  (so  that the intended recipient is known).
    The only difference between send() and write(2) is the presence
    of  flags.  With  a zero flags  argument, send() is equivalent
    to write(2).  Also, the following call

           send(sockfd, buf, len, flags);

       is equivalent to

           sendto(sockfd, buf, len, flags, NULL, 0);

where the "NULL, 0" represents "no target address".

In Python you have a socket object "s" so that:

    s.send(...

it equivalent to the C code:

    send(s, ...

shown above.

So, to your error: you're getting EPIPE (that's the OS error behind 
BrokenPipeError), and looking in the manual page in the ERRORS section:

    EPIPE  The  local  end  has  been  shut  down  on a connection
           oriented socket.  In this case, the process will also
           receive a  SIGPIPE unless MSG_NOSIGNAL is set.

and in BUGS:

    Linux may return EPIPE instead of ENOTCONN.

so also looking for ENOTCONN:

    If sendto() is used on a connection-mode (SOCK_STREAM,
    SOCK_SEQPACKET) socket,  the arguments dest_addr and addrlen
    are ignored (and the error EISCONN may be returned when they
    are not NULL and 0),  and the  error ENOTCONN  is returned when
    the socket was not actually connected.

and again in the ERRORS section:

    ENOTCONN The socket is not connected, and no target has been given.

We're back to: what kind of socket it this?

A datagram socket (eg UDP) normally requires a target address, typically 
the address from which you received the first packet (the ping). A 
stream connection (eg TCP) needs to be connected.

If you're got a stream connection, getting a message implies that the 
connection has been established, and maybe the connection was closed 
before you sent your reply.

More detail needed, particularly: how is the socket set up, and what's 
doing the sending of the "ping"?

Cheers,
Cameron Simpson <cs at cskk.id.au>

From auriocus at gmx.de  Sat Jan 30 17:03:55 2021
From: auriocus at gmx.de (Christian Gollwitzer)
Date: Sat, 30 Jan 2021 23:03:55 +0100
Subject: idlelib re-use
In-Reply-To: <mailman.973.1611873718.7193.python-list@python.org>
References: <1dca24e6-3d43-4cd5-be6d-29e8e29097c0@everest.reportlab.co.uk>
 <ruv4vc$hoq$1@ciao.gmane.io>
 <mailman.973.1611873718.7193.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <rv4l4c$p7v$1@dont-email.me>

Am 28.01.21 um 20:57 schrieb Terry Reedy:
> On 1/28/2021 5:53 AM, Robin Becker wrote:
>> I googled in vain for instances where parts of idlelib are re-used in 
>> a simplistic way. I would like to use the editor functionality in a 
>> tkinter window and also probably run code in a subprocess.
>>
>> Are there any examples around that do these sorts of things?
> 
> turtledemo reuses IDLE's colorizer and read-only textviews.? I have seen 
> occasional hints on stackoverflow of other such uses.
> 
> One barrier to reuse is that the parts are highly interconnected, with 
> numerous import loops.? (Changing the form of some imports from 'import 
> x' to 'from x import y' can make IDLE startup fail.)? Some objects, like 
> EditorWindow, are too monolithic.? You cannot put a toplevel inside 
> another toplevel.

Yes, you can. There are two possiblities, the one is converting the 
toplevel into a frame with wm_forget(), after which you can simply pack 
it into another frame. The second one is configuring a frame as a 
container, which allows to even embed a window from a foreign 
application. I'm not sure this works on all platforms, though.

	Christian

From pieter-l at vanoostrum.org  Sun Jan 31 14:55:02 2021
From: pieter-l at vanoostrum.org (Pieter van Oostrum)
Date: Sun, 31 Jan 2021 20:55:02 +0100
Subject: Jupyter notebooks to A4 (again)
References: <i7680qFm1ljU1@mid.individual.net>
Message-ID: <lxbld47ug9.fsf@cochabamba.vanoostrum.org>

Martin Sch??n <martin.schoon at gmail.com> writes:

> Hello all,
>
> Some years ago I asked about exporting notebooks to pdf in
> A4 rather than US Letter. I got help, rather detailed
> instructions from you in general and Piet von Oostrum in
> particular. Following the advice helped and I was happy.
>
> Now it does not work any longer:
>
>          nbconvert failed: A4article
>
> I am stumped. I have not changed anything and all
> looks OK.
>
> Today I tried up-dating all things Python and Jupyter
> but that did not help.
>
> I have also tried removing the A4 stuff and after 
> restarting Jupyter I can export to PDF and get US Letter
> paper format.
>
> A quick and (obviously) not very clever internet search
> yielded nothing helpful.

The template system has changed in nbconvert version 6, so the original templates don't work anymore.
And they still haven't supplied standard provisions for A4 paper (like an option or so). Probably a mild case of cultural blindness.

I found out how to do it in the new template system, however, there is a bug that gives some troubles.

To get all your latex (and therefore also PDF) output in A4 format:

Find out where nbconvert expects user templates.

Issue the shell command:
bash-3.2$ jupyter --paths
Look up the data part:
...
data:
    /Users/pieter/Library/Jupyter
...
The first one is your personal directory in my case ~/Library/Jupyter.

In this directory create the directory nbconvert/templates/latex
In this directory create these two files:
conf.json
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Now jupyter nbconvert --to latex my_nb.ipynb will generate latex with a4paper.

If you don't want this to be the default, but you want a special template, let's say A4article, to do this, place these files in a directory .../nbconvert/templates/A4article rather than .../nbconvert/templates/latex.

Then you would use jupyter nbconvert --to latex --template A4article my_nb.ipynb

However, due to a bug this won't work unless you patch the nbconvert export code.
This is a simple one-line patch.
See https://github.com/jupyter/nbconvert/pull/1496/commits/a61a2241a87912005720d3412ccd7ef7b5fce6dd

-- 
Pieter van Oostrum
www: http://pieter.vanoostrum.org/
PGP key: [8DAE142BE17999C4]

From pa.daher at icloud.com  Sat Jan 30 16:58:53 2021
From: pa.daher at icloud.com (Philipp Daher)
Date: Sat, 30 Jan 2021 22:58:53 +0100
Subject: Pyautogui troubles
Message-ID: <DDD2567B-CBCB-4B2D-8C63-0231C02C3A8B@icloud.com>

Dear Python-Team,

I have just repaired python after running my program which imports pyautogui, closing and reopening it and then getting this: ModuleNotFoundError: No module named ?pyautogui?. Repairing didn?t work and I still get that message. All I did was closing the perfectly working program in 3.9.1 and reopening it in 3.9.1, but after the reopen I got the message. I?ve tried looking for solutions in at least seven developer forums, nothing worked. If it helps, I have Python  3.8 installed on my PC also.

I hope you can fix my troubles.

Thank you in advance, your help seeker.

From torriem at gmail.com  Sun Jan 31 20:24:02 2021
From: torriem at gmail.com (Michael Torrie)
Date: Sun, 31 Jan 2021 18:24:02 -0700
Subject: Pyautogui troubles
In-Reply-To: <DDD2567B-CBCB-4B2D-8C63-0231C02C3A8B@icloud.com>
References: <DDD2567B-CBCB-4B2D-8C63-0231C02C3A8B@icloud.com>
Message-ID: <1c6ac040-d93e-39ac-65f7-ec2bd81ddc44@gmail.com>

On 1/30/21 2:58 PM, Philipp Daher via Python-list wrote:
> Dear Python-Team,
> 
> I have just repaired python after running my program which imports pyautogui, closing and reopening it and then getting this: ModuleNotFoundError: No module named ?pyautogui?. Repairing didn?t work and I still get that message. All I did was closing the perfectly working program in 3.9.1 and reopening it in 3.9.1, but after the reopen I got the message. I?ve tried looking for solutions in at least seven developer forums, nothing worked. If it helps, I have Python  3.8 installed on my PC also.
> 
> I hope you can fix my troubles.

I've never heard of pyautogui. It's not something that ships with Python
if I'm not mistaken. Is this something you installed?  Note that just
because you installed a module under 3.8 does not mean it will
automatically be available in 3.9.1. You'll probably have to install it
using 3.9.1's pip.

From mats at wichmann.us  Sun Jan 31 21:41:05 2021
From: mats at wichmann.us (Mats Wichmann)
Date: Sun, 31 Jan 2021 19:41:05 -0700
Subject: Pyautogui troubles
In-Reply-To: <DDD2567B-CBCB-4B2D-8C63-0231C02C3A8B@icloud.com>
References: <DDD2567B-CBCB-4B2D-8C63-0231C02C3A8B@icloud.com>
Message-ID: <d1320c03-0186-b9d7-1b62-09b2b23f10cb@wichmann.us>

On 1/30/21 2:58 PM, Philipp Daher via Python-list wrote:
> Dear Python-Team,
> 
> I have just repaired python after running my program which imports pyautogui, closing and reopening it and then getting this: ModuleNotFoundError: No module named ?pyautogui?. Repairing didn?t work and I still get that message. All I did was closing the perfectly working program in 3.9.1 and reopening it in 3.9.1, but after the reopen I got the message. I?ve tried looking for solutions in at least seven developer forums, nothing worked. If it helps, I have Python  3.8 installed on my PC also.
> 
> I hope you can fix my troubles.

We can't fix it, but maybe point you to some things to let you fix it :) 
  Sorry if you've already seen this.

Remember: a missing module is a path problem. The module is either 
someplace, or it isn't ("not actually installed" happens often, but 
apparently isn't your case since things worked previously). And your 
Python isn't looking in the place the module is (or isn't).

Find where the module is installed.
Ask Python where it's looking. Here's a sample interactive session:

$ python
Python 3.8.7 (default, Dec 22 2020, 00:00:00)
[GCC 10.2.1 20201125 (Red Hat 10.2.1-9)] on linux
Type "help", "copyright", "credits" or "license" for more information.
 >>> import sys
 >>> sys.path
['', '/usr/lib64/python38.zip', '/usr/lib64/python3.8', 
'/usr/lib64/python3.8/lib-dynload', 
'/home/mats/.local/lib/python3.8/site-packages', 
'/usr/lib64/python3.8/site-packages', '/usr/lib/python3.8/site-packages']


This article might be a starting point (it's not actually a great 
article IMO, but it's referenced from several places on the net and it 
does cover a lot of the topics):

https://coderslegacy.com/python-no-module-named-import-error/