From rantingrickjohnson at gmail.com  Sat Apr  1 00:38:05 2017
From: rantingrickjohnson at gmail.com (Rick Johnson)
Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2017 21:38:05 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Text-mode apps (Was :Who are the "spacists"?)
In-Reply-To: <58dd12d2$0$1611$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
References: <CAE6NSRD=LLyj2qdBR_YX_MkubocQCURVivkHg=+62qgZZ3qCQw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPTjJmo6mxAxKQgqNRLFoX6EAnRrwoK6B8f7ids_RbWQ8VoiYg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAE6NSRDsN8vTPkt4E4LU6JGMEqUME3DQ73GPZ-f_7uVCR-aGrw@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.38.1490547441.2634.python-list@python.org>
 <58d80413$0$1595$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <CAE6NSRDpdadqORG1w0529bvvw_Gkoau8xTga3LYS=LfGCmXuqg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPTjJmojKPE3d4y5YEJJuGer174Yv0ZcobJGOp8rmYgYYYefbg@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.57.1490558002.2634.python-list@python.org>
 <626fc6cf-0cf9-4efa-a3ff-f9ca2ddcb7fd@googlegroups.com>
 <58dd12d2$0$1611$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
Message-ID: <04f771fe-1c40-48e9-85d7-3b743108c5eb@googlegroups.com>

On Thursday, March 30, 2017 at 9:14:54 AM UTC-5, Steve D'Aprano wrote:
> On Thu, 30 Mar 2017 03:21 pm, Rick Johnson wrote:
>
> > On Sunday, March 26, 2017 at 2:53:49 PM UTC-5, Chris Angelico wrote:
> >> On Mon, Mar 27, 2017 at 6:25 AM, Mikhail V <mikhailwas at gmail.com> wrote:
> >> > On 26 March 2017 at 20:10, Steve D'Aprano <steve+python at pearwood.info>
> >> > wrote:
> >> >> On Mon, 27 Mar 2017 03:57 am, Mikhail V wrote:

> Don't be silly. You don't have to be fluent in a language
> in order for your program to support users who are. All you
> have to do is not stop them from using their own native
> language by forcing them to use ASCII and nothing but
> ASCII.  Of course, if you want to *localise* your UI to
> their language, then you need somebody to translate error
> messages, menus, window titles, etc. I'll grant that's not
> always an easy job.

And thats my point. Unicode may allow my French girlfriend
Zoe to spell her name using chars that are familiar to her,
but Unicode is not a langauge translator. Zoe can still
intuit her name in ASCII, but if she's unable to read
English, Unicode is of no help to her.

> But aren't you lucky, you speak one of a handful of lingua
> francas in the world, so the chances are your users will be
> pathetically grateful if all you do is let them type in
> their own language. Actual UI localisation is a bonus.

A bonus for the foreign user, perhaps, but an onerous for
the developer.

> Now you're just being absurd. Supporting diacritics doesn't
> mean you are responsible for teaching your users what
> they're for. They already know. That's why they want to use
> them.
>
> Diacritics are for:
>
> - distinguishing between words which look the same, but
> have different pronunciation;

I wonder how those poor English readers manage without
syntactical clues? it boggles the mind.

> - distinguishing between different letters of the alphabet,
> like dotted-i and dotless-? (or ? and ?-with-a-dot, if you
> prefer), or a and ?;

Sounds like the "encoding in question" could use a few more
glyphs.

> - distinguishing between words which look and sound the
> same but mean something different;

Oh, you mean like mean people? "In a pale attempt to protect
the homestead, the owner smacked an intruder in the face with
a large metal pail only to become pale as sheet when the
intruder was unaffected by the assault. Do you think the
owner's actions were beyond the pale? Or do all other
options pale by comparison?"

> - and making band names look ???? and annoy old fuddy-
> duddies.

So now we've even included graffiti artists in our little
"inclusivity project". My, my... we are so _not_ mean!


From rosuav at gmail.com  Sat Apr  1 00:54:03 2017
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Sat, 1 Apr 2017 15:54:03 +1100
Subject: Text-mode apps (Was :Who are the "spacists"?)
In-Reply-To: <04f771fe-1c40-48e9-85d7-3b743108c5eb@googlegroups.com>
References: <CAE6NSRD=LLyj2qdBR_YX_MkubocQCURVivkHg=+62qgZZ3qCQw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPTjJmo6mxAxKQgqNRLFoX6EAnRrwoK6B8f7ids_RbWQ8VoiYg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAE6NSRDsN8vTPkt4E4LU6JGMEqUME3DQ73GPZ-f_7uVCR-aGrw@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.38.1490547441.2634.python-list@python.org>
 <58d80413$0$1595$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <CAE6NSRDpdadqORG1w0529bvvw_Gkoau8xTga3LYS=LfGCmXuqg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPTjJmojKPE3d4y5YEJJuGer174Yv0ZcobJGOp8rmYgYYYefbg@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.57.1490558002.2634.python-list@python.org>
 <626fc6cf-0cf9-4efa-a3ff-f9ca2ddcb7fd@googlegroups.com>
 <58dd12d2$0$1611$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <04f771fe-1c40-48e9-85d7-3b743108c5eb@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmpehKNPB3LC0+snFoUQmVRo3tRi5J6N4V6TPgAVAP+vbg@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Apr 1, 2017 at 3:38 PM, Rick Johnson
<rantingrickjohnson at gmail.com> wrote:
>> - distinguishing between different letters of the alphabet,
>> like dotted-i and dotless-? (or ? and ?-with-a-dot, if you
>> prefer), or a and ?;
>
> Sounds like the "encoding in question" could use a few more
> glyphs.

How many glyphs do you think you need?

ChrisA


From iranna.gani28 at gmail.com  Sat Apr  1 02:58:08 2017
From: iranna.gani28 at gmail.com (Iranna Mathapati)
Date: Sat, 1 Apr 2017 12:28:08 +0530
Subject: Thread within for loop
Message-ID: <CAA4=HD4uOoA6-yTRWxBoYYmVJZjPORG6LAPtNXPqRSmUwshj8w@mail.gmail.com>

Hi team,

I tried to run fallowing run,

        *jobs = []*
*        sniffer1 = threading.Thread(target=validate_traffic_stats_dy,args=
 (FT_item_dy,RT_item_dy,forward_path_list_dy,return_path_list_dy,nat_type_list_dy,pkt_dy_1,))*
*        jobs.append(sniffer1)*

*        sniffer2 =
threading.Thread(target=validate_traffic_stats_st,args=(FT_item_st,RT_item_st,forward_path_list_st,return_path_list_st,nat_type_list_st,pkt_st,))*
*        jobs.append(sniffer2)*

*       for local_ip, global_ip in zip(src_ipv4_local_list_st_in_new,
src_ipv4_global_list_st_in_new):*
*            sniffer3 =
threading.Thread(target=create_static_nat_entries,args = (uut2_hdl2,
direction_in, local_ip,global_ip,))*
*            jobs.append(sniffer3) *

*        # Start the threads*
*        for j in jobs:*
*            j.start()*
*            time.sleep(2)*

*        # Ensure all of the threads have finished*
*        for j in jobs:*
*  j.join()*

while runing i got below error and hitting in sniffer3 thread

Exception in thread Thread-5:
Traceback (most recent call last):
  File "/auto/pysw/cel55/python/2.7.8/lib/python2.7/threading.py", line
810, in __bootstrap_inner
    self.run()
  File "/auto/pysw/cel55/python/2.7.8/lib/python2.7/threading.py", line
763, in run
    self.__target(*self.__args, **self.__kwargs)
  File
"/auto/n3k-qa/regression/pyATS2/hlite/eor/systest/scripts/NAT/feature_nat_lib.py",
line 50, in create_static_nat_entries
    {2} add-route'.format(protocol, inside_local_ip, inside_global_ip))
  File "../../lib/icon.py", line 899, in iconfig
    self.hdl.expect('# $')
  File
"/auto/n3k-qa/CODC/ianandan/pyATS2.7/lib/python2.7/site-packages/pexpect/__init__.py",
line 1451, in expect
    timeout, searchwindowsize)
  File
"/auto/n3k-qa/CODC/ianandan/pyATS2.7/lib/python2.7/site-packages/pexpect/__init__.py",
line 1466, in expect_list
    timeout, searchwindowsize)
  File
"/auto/n3k-qa/CODC/ianandan/pyATS2.7/lib/python2.7/site-packages/pexpect/__init__.py",
line 1568, in expect_loop
    raise TIMEOUT(str(err) + '\n' + str(self))
TIMEOUT: Timeout exceeded.
<pexpect.spawn object at 0xf634688c>
version: 3.3
command: /usr/bin/telnet
args: ['/usr/bin/telnet', '172.31.205.170', '2025']
searcher: <pexpect.searcher_re object at 0xf616396c>
buffer (last 100 chars): '\rSeoul(config)# config
terminal\r\r\n\r\r\nend\r\r\n'
before (last 100 chars): '\rSeoul(config)# config
terminal\r\r\n\r\r\nend\r\r\n'
after: <class 'pexpect.TIMEOUT'>
match: None
match_index: None
exitstatus: None
flag_eof: False
pid: 17297
child_fd: 8
closed: False
timeout: 500
delimiter: <class 'pexpect.EOF'>
logfile: <open file
'/auto/n3k-qa/regression/pyATS2/users/root/runinfo/Add_Static_traffic_check_job.2017Mar31_23:29:43/TaskLog.__task1',
mode 'a' at 0xf63193e8>
logfile_read: None
logfile_send: None
maxread: 2000
ignorecase: False
searchwindowsize: None
delaybeforesend: 0.05
delayafterclose: 0.1
delayafterterminate: 0.1


Can you please let me know what is the issue.


Thanks,
Iranna M


From dieter at handshake.de  Sat Apr  1 03:38:54 2017
From: dieter at handshake.de (dieter)
Date: Sat, 01 Apr 2017 09:38:54 +0200
Subject: Developing a Python JIT and have trouble
References: <bc1fc8ae-42cf-407e-a546-e2cc8e63a5b8@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <8737dsziep.fsf@handshake.de>

Yuheng Zou <zouyuheng1998 at gmail.com> writes:
> ...
> I built a C++ library which contains EvalFrame function, and then use dlopen and dlsym to use it. It looks like this:
>
> extern "C" PyObject *EvalFrame(PyFrameObject *f, int throwflag) {
>     return _PyEval_EvalFrameDefault(f, throwflag);
> }
> I added following code to Python/pylifecycle.c at function _Py_InitializeEx_Private(Python version is 3.6.1):
>
> void *pyjit = NULL;
> pyjit = dlopen("../cmake-build-debug/libPubbon.dylib", 0);
> if (pyjit != NULL) {
>     interp->eval_frame = (_PyFrameEvalFunction)dlsym(pyjit, "EvalFrame");
>     //interp->eval_frame = _PyEval_EvalFrameDefault;
> } 
> Then something strange happened. I used LLDB to trace the variables. When it ran at EvalFrame, the address of f pointer didn't change, but f->f_lineno changed.
>
It may not be very surprising that the lineno changes during execution.
It should correspond to the line of the code currently executed.

> Then when I ran python.exe, I got Segmentation Fault.
>
> Why the address of the pointer didn't change, but the context change?

Some structure fields (such as lineno) may be expected to change.

In addition, the interpreter is using some global variables to
maintain state - variables that may change e.g. during thread switches.


The "SIGSEGV" might indicate that the structure has been freed --
and is now used for different things.



From dieter at handshake.de  Sat Apr  1 03:45:00 2017
From: dieter at handshake.de (dieter)
Date: Sat, 01 Apr 2017 09:45:00 +0200
Subject: Thread within for loop
References: <CAA4=HD4uOoA6-yTRWxBoYYmVJZjPORG6LAPtNXPqRSmUwshj8w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <87y3vky3k3.fsf@handshake.de>

Iranna Mathapati <iranna.gani28 at gmail.com> writes:
> ...
> Exception in thread Thread-5:
> Traceback (most recent call last):
> ...
>   File
> "/auto/n3k-qa/CODC/ianandan/pyATS2.7/lib/python2.7/site-packages/pexpect/__init__.py",
> line 1466, in expect_list
>     timeout, searchwindowsize)
>   File
> "/auto/n3k-qa/CODC/ianandan/pyATS2.7/lib/python2.7/site-packages/pexpect/__init__.py",
> line 1568, in expect_loop
>     raise TIMEOUT(str(err) + '\n' + str(self))
> TIMEOUT: Timeout exceeded.

"Timeout" means that the "pexpect" partner did not respond sufficiently
fast.



From No_spamming at noWhere_7073.org  Sat Apr  1 04:13:34 2017
From: No_spamming at noWhere_7073.org (Robert L.)
Date: Sat, 1 Apr 2017 08:13:34 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: Better way to do this dict comprehesion
References: <bcd87cc3-d41c-4ce8-9d14-07b81c96983a@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <obnnfc$1eij$1@gioia.aioe.org>

On 3/7/2017, Sayth Renshaw wrote:

> I have got this dictionary comprehension and it
> works but how can I do it better?
> 
> from collections import Counter
> 
> def find_it(seq):
>      counts = dict(Counter(seq))
>      a = [(k, v) for k,v in counts.items() if v % 3 == 0]
>      return a[0][0]
> 
> test_seq = [20,1,-1,2,-2,3,3,5,5,1,2,4,20,4,-1,-2,5]
> 
> so this returns 5 which is great and the point
> of the problem I was doing.
> 
> Can also do it like this
> def find_it(seq):
>      counts = dict(Counter(seq))
>      a = [(k) for k,v in counts.items() if v % 3 == 0]
>      return a[0]
> 
> But the given problem states there will always
> only be one number appearing an odd number of
> times given that is there a neater way to get
> the answer?


[20,1,-1,2,-2,3,3,5,5,1,2,4,20,4,-1,-2,5].group_by{|x| x}.
find{|k,v| v.size.odd?}.first

 ===>
5

-- 
sig redacted


From iranna.gani28 at gmail.com  Sat Apr  1 04:23:35 2017
From: iranna.gani28 at gmail.com (Iranna Mathapati)
Date: Sat, 1 Apr 2017 13:53:35 +0530
Subject: Thread within for loop
In-Reply-To: <87y3vky3k3.fsf@handshake.de>
References: <CAA4=HD4uOoA6-yTRWxBoYYmVJZjPORG6LAPtNXPqRSmUwshj8w@mail.gmail.com>
 <87y3vky3k3.fsf@handshake.de>
Message-ID: <CAA4=HD68UZavGtsgtst+8uGx1n--EbdcSV1RC3LftEOxS1kvVA@mail.gmail.com>

Hi ,

How to fix it and now i got below error for same script

*runtimeerror threads can only be started once then*

*Thanks,*

On Sat, Apr 1, 2017 at 1:15 PM, dieter <dieter at handshake.de> wrote:

> Iranna Mathapati <iranna.gani28 at gmail.com> writes:
> > ...
> > Exception in thread Thread-5:
> > Traceback (most recent call last):
> > ...
> >   File
> > "/auto/n3k-qa/CODC/ianandan/pyATS2.7/lib/python2.7/site-
> packages/pexpect/__init__.py",
> > line 1466, in expect_list
> >     timeout, searchwindowsize)
> >   File
> > "/auto/n3k-qa/CODC/ianandan/pyATS2.7/lib/python2.7/site-
> packages/pexpect/__init__.py",
> > line 1568, in expect_loop
> >     raise TIMEOUT(str(err) + '\n' + str(self))
> > TIMEOUT: Timeout exceeded.
>
> "Timeout" means that the "pexpect" partner did not respond sufficiently
> fast.
>
> --
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
>


From bintacomputers at gmail.com  Sat Apr  1 06:20:59 2017
From: bintacomputers at gmail.com (Umar Yusuf)
Date: Sat, 1 Apr 2017 03:20:59 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Read JSON file correctly
Message-ID: <44f41152-e94b-4619-b6e4-d4a5a7d8eb63@googlegroups.com>

How do I read this json file correctly? Details at: 

http://stackoverflow.com/questions/43152368/python-unicodedecodeerror-charmap-codec-cant-decode-byte-0x81-in-position


From __peter__ at web.de  Sat Apr  1 08:43:05 2017
From: __peter__ at web.de (Peter Otten)
Date: Sat, 01 Apr 2017 14:43:05 +0200
Subject: Read JSON file correctly
References: <44f41152-e94b-4619-b6e4-d4a5a7d8eb63@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <obo78p$odh$1@blaine.gmane.org>

Umar Yusuf wrote:

> How do I read this json file correctly? Details at:
> 
> http://stackoverflow.com/questions/43152368/python-unicodedecodeerror-charmap-codec-cant-decode-byte-0x81-in-position

Should you ever come back please take the time to post the "details" here. 
Also, provide the traceback as text rather than an image. 
Thank you.

As the answer on stackoverflow says, the file is opened using the cp1252 
encoding when it should be utf-8.

While I don't know how to make that the default on Windows here's a 
workaround:

import pandas

with open("input.json", encoding="utf-8") as infile:
    df = pandas.read_json(infile)



From specx at mynet.com  Sat Apr  1 10:36:29 2017
From: specx at mynet.com (specx at mynet.com)
Date: Sat, 1 Apr 2017 17:36:29 +0300
Subject: Tcp Socket Receive
Message-ID: <5a7e89f5bff49f25b1b69d2c9278e98e@webmail5611.mynet.com>

Hello,
?
I have a tcp server coded with python and my packets include a 2 bytes header which is just the length of the following data. The problem is how can I be sure I received 2 bytes and not just one byte. In Qt, I use bytesAvailable function. However, here I just use sock.recv(2) but it can fetch less than 2 since the parameter is the maximum length. Do we have any method?
?
Greetz



From steve+python at pearwood.info  Sat Apr  1 12:00:33 2017
From: steve+python at pearwood.info (Steve D'Aprano)
Date: Sun, 02 Apr 2017 02:00:33 +1000
Subject: Text-mode apps (Was :Who are the "spacists"?)
References: <CAE6NSRD=LLyj2qdBR_YX_MkubocQCURVivkHg=+62qgZZ3qCQw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPTjJmo6mxAxKQgqNRLFoX6EAnRrwoK6B8f7ids_RbWQ8VoiYg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAE6NSRDsN8vTPkt4E4LU6JGMEqUME3DQ73GPZ-f_7uVCR-aGrw@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.38.1490547441.2634.python-list@python.org>
 <58d80413$0$1595$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <CAE6NSRDpdadqORG1w0529bvvw_Gkoau8xTga3LYS=LfGCmXuqg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPTjJmojKPE3d4y5YEJJuGer174Yv0ZcobJGOp8rmYgYYYefbg@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.57.1490558002.2634.python-list@python.org>
 <626fc6cf-0cf9-4efa-a3ff-f9ca2ddcb7fd@googlegroups.com>
 <CAPTjJmqDU1Wr4y0G=BmYCjEdKLC0_Ch-fNoM2cOykX1vB5B-5Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.136.1490852628.2634.python-list@python.org>
 <ee1ada22-ce6c-4e21-b5ae-cbbbaca0b8ba@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <58dfcea3$0$1596$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>

On Sat, 1 Apr 2017 12:17 pm, Rick Johnson wrote:

> Most people just quietly change the filename and move on


There are over a billion people in China, almost a billion more in India,
about 140 million people in Russia, nearly 130 million people in Japan, 250
million in Indonesia, about 290 million native Arabic speakers, and even 9
million speakers of Hebrew.

If you think that all these people, and hundreds of millions more, will
just "quietly change the filename" to ASCII because you're too lazy,
self-centred and arrogant to move on from 1963, then you truly are an
example of the Ugly American.

To say nothing of the hundreds of millions who use Latin character sets that
ASCII cannot handle, including around 65 million British.

Open your eyes, there is a whole world past the borders of your insular,
close-minded little country. 95% of the world is not American, and there
are millions of Americans who want to use non-ASCII characters in their
file names, even non-Latin characters.

You talk about a fraction of that 5%, the tiny minority who care only about
ASCII, and describe them as "most people". That demonstrates the smallness
of your world-view and the enormity of your ignorance. Wake up. The world
is not Smallville USA, it never has been, and never will be.

Either adapt, or get out of the way of those who have.



-- 
Steve
?Cheer up,? they said, ?things could be worse.? So I cheered up, and sure
enough, things got worse.



From steve+python at pearwood.info  Sat Apr  1 12:11:31 2017
From: steve+python at pearwood.info (Steve D'Aprano)
Date: Sun, 02 Apr 2017 02:11:31 +1000
Subject: Moderator please remove [Re: Better way to do this dict comprehesion]
References: <bcd87cc3-d41c-4ce8-9d14-07b81c96983a@googlegroups.com>
 <obnnfc$1eij$1@gioia.aioe.org>
Message-ID: <58dfd134$0$1585$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>

Can one of the mailing list moderators please remove this person's post for
including a link to an anti-Semitic video by David Duke?



On Sat, 1 Apr 2017 07:13 pm, Robert L. wrote:

Goyim were born [...]
web.archive.org/web/20101020044210/http://www.jpost.com/JewishWorld[...]
archive.org/download/DavidDuke_videos/[...]

I've left in just enough of the original content so the moderator can see
what I'm objecting to.

Robert, if you're reading this, take your anti-semitism elsewhere, we're not
interested. If you want to discuss Python, you are welcome here, but if you
use it as a platform for bigotry, you aren't.



-- 
Steve
?Cheer up,? they said, ?things could be worse.? So I cheered up, and sure
enough, things got worse.



From marko at pacujo.net  Sat Apr  1 12:43:34 2017
From: marko at pacujo.net (Marko Rauhamaa)
Date: Sat, 01 Apr 2017 19:43:34 +0300
Subject: Text-mode apps (Was :Who are the "spacists"?)
References: <CAE6NSRD=LLyj2qdBR_YX_MkubocQCURVivkHg=+62qgZZ3qCQw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPTjJmo6mxAxKQgqNRLFoX6EAnRrwoK6B8f7ids_RbWQ8VoiYg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAE6NSRDsN8vTPkt4E4LU6JGMEqUME3DQ73GPZ-f_7uVCR-aGrw@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.38.1490547441.2634.python-list@python.org>
 <58d80413$0$1595$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <CAE6NSRDpdadqORG1w0529bvvw_Gkoau8xTga3LYS=LfGCmXuqg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPTjJmojKPE3d4y5YEJJuGer174Yv0ZcobJGOp8rmYgYYYefbg@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.57.1490558002.2634.python-list@python.org>
 <626fc6cf-0cf9-4efa-a3ff-f9ca2ddcb7fd@googlegroups.com>
 <CAPTjJmqDU1Wr4y0G=BmYCjEdKLC0_Ch-fNoM2cOykX1vB5B-5Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.136.1490852628.2634.python-list@python.org>
 <ee1ada22-ce6c-4e21-b5ae-cbbbaca0b8ba@googlegroups.com>
 <58dfcea3$0$1596$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
Message-ID: <87r31ct6x5.fsf@elektro.pacujo.net>

Steve D'Aprano <steve+python at pearwood.info>:

> Open your eyes, there is a whole world past the borders of your insular,
> close-minded little country. 95% of the world is not American, and there
> are millions of Americans who want to use non-ASCII characters in their
> file names, even non-Latin characters.

It would be nice to be able to use a / in my file names. Funny enough,
I'm allowed to use a zillion unprintable characters in my file names but
no slashes allowed.

Example:

   results-Q2/2017.json


Marko


From rosuav at gmail.com  Sat Apr  1 12:55:06 2017
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Sun, 2 Apr 2017 02:55:06 +1000
Subject: Text-mode apps (Was :Who are the "spacists"?)
In-Reply-To: <87r31ct6x5.fsf@elektro.pacujo.net>
References: <CAE6NSRD=LLyj2qdBR_YX_MkubocQCURVivkHg=+62qgZZ3qCQw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPTjJmo6mxAxKQgqNRLFoX6EAnRrwoK6B8f7ids_RbWQ8VoiYg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAE6NSRDsN8vTPkt4E4LU6JGMEqUME3DQ73GPZ-f_7uVCR-aGrw@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.38.1490547441.2634.python-list@python.org>
 <58d80413$0$1595$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <CAE6NSRDpdadqORG1w0529bvvw_Gkoau8xTga3LYS=LfGCmXuqg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPTjJmojKPE3d4y5YEJJuGer174Yv0ZcobJGOp8rmYgYYYefbg@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.57.1490558002.2634.python-list@python.org>
 <626fc6cf-0cf9-4efa-a3ff-f9ca2ddcb7fd@googlegroups.com>
 <CAPTjJmqDU1Wr4y0G=BmYCjEdKLC0_Ch-fNoM2cOykX1vB5B-5Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.136.1490852628.2634.python-list@python.org>
 <ee1ada22-ce6c-4e21-b5ae-cbbbaca0b8ba@googlegroups.com>
 <58dfcea3$0$1596$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <87r31ct6x5.fsf@elektro.pacujo.net>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmonZkqjxobneLO+UsAt9Hc54P-3MHjJ3xhMGyKFXs-DWw@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Apr 2, 2017 at 2:43 AM, Marko Rauhamaa <marko at pacujo.net> wrote:
> Steve D'Aprano <steve+python at pearwood.info>:
>
>> Open your eyes, there is a whole world past the borders of your insular,
>> close-minded little country. 95% of the world is not American, and there
>> are millions of Americans who want to use non-ASCII characters in their
>> file names, even non-Latin characters.
>
> It would be nice to be able to use a / in my file names. Funny enough,
> I'm allowed to use a zillion unprintable characters in my file names but
> no slashes allowed.
>
> Example:
>
>    results-Q2/2017.json

But how do you distinguish between that file, and a file called
2017.json in a subdirectory called results-Q2?

ChrisA


From saxri89 at gmail.com  Sat Apr  1 12:59:37 2017
From: saxri89 at gmail.com (Xristos Xristoou)
Date: Sat, 1 Apr 2017 09:59:37 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: django add images to models.py from views.py
Message-ID: <c4c114bd-0422-489f-b970-64c25fa50963@googlegroups.com>

I create a simple Django authentication app and work fine. now I want to add a python script where to can do some simple image processing. my python script for processing work fine and I put in the views.py. my question is the new image created from the script how to can add back to image from mymodel ?first must be save temporarily ? can I do this ? sorry I am new.
class MyModel(models.Model):
    user = models.ForeignKey(to=settings.AUTH_USER_MODEL)
    image = models.ImageField(upload_to=generate_path(self.user))
forms.py
@login_required
class CronForm(forms.Form):
    days = forms.ModelChoiceField(queryset=MyModel.objects.all)
views.py
@login_required
def show_something(request,user_id):
   user = UserProfile.objects.get(user__id=user_id)
   form = CronForm()
   if request.method == "POST":
      form = CronForm(request.POST)
      if form.is_valid:
         #  do image processing
         #  do image processing
         # and finaly ta ke new image from the image processing like newim='newim.tif'
      return HttpResponseRedirect(...) 
      errors = form.errors or None
   return render(request, 'path/to/template.html',{
          'form': form,
          'errors': errors,
   })


From marko at pacujo.net  Sat Apr  1 13:08:44 2017
From: marko at pacujo.net (Marko Rauhamaa)
Date: Sat, 01 Apr 2017 20:08:44 +0300
Subject: Text-mode apps (Was :Who are the "spacists"?)
References: <CAE6NSRD=LLyj2qdBR_YX_MkubocQCURVivkHg=+62qgZZ3qCQw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPTjJmo6mxAxKQgqNRLFoX6EAnRrwoK6B8f7ids_RbWQ8VoiYg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAE6NSRDsN8vTPkt4E4LU6JGMEqUME3DQ73GPZ-f_7uVCR-aGrw@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.38.1490547441.2634.python-list@python.org>
 <58d80413$0$1595$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <CAE6NSRDpdadqORG1w0529bvvw_Gkoau8xTga3LYS=LfGCmXuqg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPTjJmojKPE3d4y5YEJJuGer174Yv0ZcobJGOp8rmYgYYYefbg@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.57.1490558002.2634.python-list@python.org>
 <626fc6cf-0cf9-4efa-a3ff-f9ca2ddcb7fd@googlegroups.com>
 <CAPTjJmqDU1Wr4y0G=BmYCjEdKLC0_Ch-fNoM2cOykX1vB5B-5Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.136.1490852628.2634.python-list@python.org>
 <ee1ada22-ce6c-4e21-b5ae-cbbbaca0b8ba@googlegroups.com>
 <58dfcea3$0$1596$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <87r31ct6x5.fsf@elektro.pacujo.net>
 <CAPTjJmonZkqjxobneLO+UsAt9Hc54P-3MHjJ3xhMGyKFXs-DWw@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.14.1491065715.2961.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <87h928t5r7.fsf@elektro.pacujo.net>

Chris Angelico <rosuav at gmail.com>:

> On Sun, Apr 2, 2017 at 2:43 AM, Marko Rauhamaa <marko at pacujo.net> wrote:
>> It would be nice to be able to use a / in my file names. Funny
>> enough, I'm allowed to use a zillion unprintable characters in my
>> file names but no slashes allowed.
>>
>> Example:
>>
>>    results-Q2/2017.json
>
> But how do you distinguish between that file, and a file called
> 2017.json in a subdirectory called results-Q2?

When there's a will, there's a way:

 * Show a folder icon for a directory and a file icon for a file.

 * Do it URI style: path/to/results-Q2%2F2017.json

 * Do it C style: path/to/results-Q2\/2017.json

 * Do it Python style: [ "path", "to", "results-Q2/2017.json" ]

 * Do it Lisp style: (path to results-Q2/2017.json)

I'm sure you can come up with several other workable solutions.


Marko


From skip.montanaro at gmail.com  Sat Apr  1 13:09:06 2017
From: skip.montanaro at gmail.com (Skip Montanaro)
Date: Sat, 1 Apr 2017 12:09:06 -0500
Subject: Moderator please remove [Re: Better way to do this dict
 comprehesion]
In-Reply-To: <58dfd134$0$1585$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
References: <bcd87cc3-d41c-4ce8-9d14-07b81c96983a@googlegroups.com>
 <obnnfc$1eij$1@gioia.aioe.org>
 <58dfd134$0$1585$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
Message-ID: <CANc-5UwBBwopQQXOFG55D1tujv0Z=EHitXufdUYf2oNhW0-ZMw@mail.gmail.com>

Passed along to postmaster at python.org, who generally takes care of this
sort of thing.

Skip

On Apr 1, 2017 11:19 AM, "Steve D'Aprano" <steve+python at pearwood.info>
wrote:

> Can one of the mailing list moderators please remove this person's post for
> including a link to an anti-Semitic video by David Duke?
>
>
>
> On Sat, 1 Apr 2017 07:13 pm, Robert L. wrote:
>
> Goyim were born [...]
> web.archive.org/web/20101020044210/http://www.jpost.com/JewishWorld[...]
> archive.org/download/DavidDuke_videos/[...]
>
> I've left in just enough of the original content so the moderator can see
> what I'm objecting to.
>
> Robert, if you're reading this, take your anti-semitism elsewhere, we're
> not
> interested. If you want to discuss Python, you are welcome here, but if you
> use it as a platform for bigotry, you aren't.
>
>
>
> --
> Steve
> ?Cheer up,? they said, ?things could be worse.? So I cheered up, and sure
> enough, things got worse.
>
> --
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
>


From steve+python at pearwood.info  Sat Apr  1 13:09:44 2017
From: steve+python at pearwood.info (Steve D'Aprano)
Date: Sun, 02 Apr 2017 03:09:44 +1000
Subject: Text-mode apps (Was :Who are the "spacists"?)
References: <CAE6NSRD=LLyj2qdBR_YX_MkubocQCURVivkHg=+62qgZZ3qCQw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPTjJmo6mxAxKQgqNRLFoX6EAnRrwoK6B8f7ids_RbWQ8VoiYg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAE6NSRDsN8vTPkt4E4LU6JGMEqUME3DQ73GPZ-f_7uVCR-aGrw@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.38.1490547441.2634.python-list@python.org>
 <58d80413$0$1595$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <CAE6NSRDpdadqORG1w0529bvvw_Gkoau8xTga3LYS=LfGCmXuqg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPTjJmojKPE3d4y5YEJJuGer174Yv0ZcobJGOp8rmYgYYYefbg@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.57.1490558002.2634.python-list@python.org>
 <626fc6cf-0cf9-4efa-a3ff-f9ca2ddcb7fd@googlegroups.com>
 <CAPTjJmqDU1Wr4y0G=BmYCjEdKLC0_Ch-fNoM2cOykX1vB5B-5Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.136.1490852628.2634.python-list@python.org>
 <ee1ada22-ce6c-4e21-b5ae-cbbbaca0b8ba@googlegroups.com>
 <58dfcea3$0$1596$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <87r31ct6x5.fsf@elektro.pacujo.net>
Message-ID: <58dfdeda$0$1611$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>

On Sun, 2 Apr 2017 02:43 am, Marko Rauhamaa wrote:

> Steve D'Aprano <steve+python at pearwood.info>:
> 
>> Open your eyes, there is a whole world past the borders of your insular,
>> close-minded little country. 95% of the world is not American, and there
>> are millions of Americans who want to use non-ASCII characters in their
>> file names, even non-Latin characters.
> 
> It would be nice to be able to use a / in my file names. 

Yes it would. Obviously the solution is to use colons as the path separator,
like in Classic Mac OS (and a few others).

And then, as sure as water is wet, you'll complain that you want to use : in
your file names.

*Whatever* record separator you choose to use, whether it is slash / or
backslash \ or colon : or Ctrl-^ RS or U+113A HANGUL CHOSEONG SIOS-PHIEUPH,
you can't *also* use it as a non-record separator.

I suppose one might invent an escaping scheme, so that you can escape the
record separator, and another escaping scheme so you can escape the escape
and prevent it from escaping the record separator. That would work.

But it's complex and error prone and people will get it wrong, and the
people who designed the Unix file system didn't think the extra complexity
was worth the benefit. If you disagree, feel free to design your own file
system, and if people prefer yours, they'll use it.

Its not just Unix. As far as I know, *no* file system, from any operating
system, has bothered to introduce an escape character so that file names
can include the path record separator. Not Unix, not Windows, not OS X, not
classic Mac OS, not Solaris.



-- 
Steve
?Cheer up,? they said, ?things could be worse.? So I cheered up, and sure
enough, things got worse.



From eryksun at gmail.com  Sat Apr  1 13:14:14 2017
From: eryksun at gmail.com (eryk sun)
Date: Sat, 1 Apr 2017 17:14:14 +0000
Subject: Text-mode apps (Was :Who are the "spacists"?)
In-Reply-To: <CAPTjJmonZkqjxobneLO+UsAt9Hc54P-3MHjJ3xhMGyKFXs-DWw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAE6NSRD=LLyj2qdBR_YX_MkubocQCURVivkHg=+62qgZZ3qCQw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPTjJmo6mxAxKQgqNRLFoX6EAnRrwoK6B8f7ids_RbWQ8VoiYg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAE6NSRDsN8vTPkt4E4LU6JGMEqUME3DQ73GPZ-f_7uVCR-aGrw@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.38.1490547441.2634.python-list@python.org>
 <58d80413$0$1595$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <CAE6NSRDpdadqORG1w0529bvvw_Gkoau8xTga3LYS=LfGCmXuqg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPTjJmojKPE3d4y5YEJJuGer174Yv0ZcobJGOp8rmYgYYYefbg@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.57.1490558002.2634.python-list@python.org>
 <626fc6cf-0cf9-4efa-a3ff-f9ca2ddcb7fd@googlegroups.com>
 <CAPTjJmqDU1Wr4y0G=BmYCjEdKLC0_Ch-fNoM2cOykX1vB5B-5Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.136.1490852628.2634.python-list@python.org>
 <ee1ada22-ce6c-4e21-b5ae-cbbbaca0b8ba@googlegroups.com>
 <58dfcea3$0$1596$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <87r31ct6x5.fsf@elektro.pacujo.net>
 <CAPTjJmonZkqjxobneLO+UsAt9Hc54P-3MHjJ3xhMGyKFXs-DWw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CACL+1atrpRHFp=hGDyKgheDGNFjfaCg7RxKMvkPSOj=twjGwpQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Apr 1, 2017 at 4:55 PM, Chris Angelico <rosuav at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Sun, Apr 2, 2017 at 2:43 AM, Marko Rauhamaa <marko at pacujo.net> wrote:
>> Steve D'Aprano <steve+python at pearwood.info>:
>>
>>> Open your eyes, there is a whole world past the borders of your insular,
>>> close-minded little country. 95% of the world is not American, and there
>>> are millions of Americans who want to use non-ASCII characters in their
>>> file names, even non-Latin characters.
>>
>> It would be nice to be able to use a / in my file names. Funny enough,
>> I'm allowed to use a zillion unprintable characters in my file names but
>> no slashes allowed.
>>
>> Example:
>>
>>    results-Q2/2017.json
>
> But how do you distinguish between that file, and a file called
> 2017.json in a subdirectory called results-Q2?

You could use a PUA code or the replacement character (U+FFFD) as an
escape code. I don't think this is possible in Linux or Unix in
general because I think POSIX mandates that '/' is reserved. It *may*
be possible in Windows if you're creating a custom file system and can
get away with requiring users to use \\?\ paths in this case. The
system parses the path up to the volume device, so that part cannot
use backslash. Beyond that, path parsing is up to file-system device
that manages the volume. If the volume is mounted in the object
namespace, then the whole path, including the device name, can use
forward slash, since that's just a normal name character to the object
manager. For example, you can create a device named "My/Device".


From alain at universite-de-strasbourg.fr.invalid  Sat Apr  1 13:18:55 2017
From: alain at universite-de-strasbourg.fr.invalid (Alain Ketterlin)
Date: Sat, 01 Apr 2017 19:18:55 +0200
Subject: Text-mode apps (Was :Who are the "spacists"?)
References: <CAE6NSRD=LLyj2qdBR_YX_MkubocQCURVivkHg=+62qgZZ3qCQw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPTjJmo6mxAxKQgqNRLFoX6EAnRrwoK6B8f7ids_RbWQ8VoiYg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAE6NSRDsN8vTPkt4E4LU6JGMEqUME3DQ73GPZ-f_7uVCR-aGrw@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.38.1490547441.2634.python-list@python.org>
 <58d80413$0$1595$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <CAE6NSRDpdadqORG1w0529bvvw_Gkoau8xTga3LYS=LfGCmXuqg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPTjJmojKPE3d4y5YEJJuGer174Yv0ZcobJGOp8rmYgYYYefbg@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.57.1490558002.2634.python-list@python.org>
 <626fc6cf-0cf9-4efa-a3ff-f9ca2ddcb7fd@googlegroups.com>
 <CAPTjJmqDU1Wr4y0G=BmYCjEdKLC0_Ch-fNoM2cOykX1vB5B-5Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.136.1490852628.2634.python-list@python.org>
 <ee1ada22-ce6c-4e21-b5ae-cbbbaca0b8ba@googlegroups.com>
 <58dfcea3$0$1596$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <87r31ct6x5.fsf@elektro.pacujo.net>
Message-ID: <87fuhst5a8.fsf@universite-de-strasbourg.fr.invalid>

Marko Rauhamaa <marko at pacujo.net> writes:

> It would be nice to be able to use a / in my file names. Funny enough,
> I'm allowed to use a zillion unprintable characters in my file names but
> no slashes allowed.
>
> Example:
>
>    results-Q2/2017.json

Use U+2215 (DIVISION SLASH).

I have tried this once. "Next time you're fired/dead" (and less pleasant
variants) was the only comment I got from people I shared files with.

-- Alain.


From steve+python at pearwood.info  Sat Apr  1 13:38:57 2017
From: steve+python at pearwood.info (Steve D'Aprano)
Date: Sun, 02 Apr 2017 03:38:57 +1000
Subject: Text-mode apps (Was :Who are the "spacists"?)
References: <CAE6NSRD=LLyj2qdBR_YX_MkubocQCURVivkHg=+62qgZZ3qCQw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPTjJmo6mxAxKQgqNRLFoX6EAnRrwoK6B8f7ids_RbWQ8VoiYg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAE6NSRDsN8vTPkt4E4LU6JGMEqUME3DQ73GPZ-f_7uVCR-aGrw@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.38.1490547441.2634.python-list@python.org>
 <58d80413$0$1595$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <CAE6NSRDpdadqORG1w0529bvvw_Gkoau8xTga3LYS=LfGCmXuqg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPTjJmojKPE3d4y5YEJJuGer174Yv0ZcobJGOp8rmYgYYYefbg@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.57.1490558002.2634.python-list@python.org>
 <626fc6cf-0cf9-4efa-a3ff-f9ca2ddcb7fd@googlegroups.com>
 <CAPTjJmqDU1Wr4y0G=BmYCjEdKLC0_Ch-fNoM2cOykX1vB5B-5Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.136.1490852628.2634.python-list@python.org>
 <ee1ada22-ce6c-4e21-b5ae-cbbbaca0b8ba@googlegroups.com>
 <58dfcea3$0$1596$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <87r31ct6x5.fsf@elektro.pacujo.net>
 <CAPTjJmonZkqjxobneLO+UsAt9Hc54P-3MHjJ3xhMGyKFXs-DWw@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.14.1491065715.2961.python-list@python.org>
 <87h928t5r7.fsf@elektro.pacujo.net>
Message-ID: <58dfe5b3$0$1616$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>

On Sun, 2 Apr 2017 03:08 am, Marko Rauhamaa wrote:

> Chris Angelico <rosuav at gmail.com>:
> 
>> On Sun, Apr 2, 2017 at 2:43 AM, Marko Rauhamaa <marko at pacujo.net> wrote:
>>> It would be nice to be able to use a / in my file names. Funny
>>> enough, I'm allowed to use a zillion unprintable characters in my
>>> file names but no slashes allowed.
>>>
>>> Example:
>>>
>>>    results-Q2/2017.json
>>
>> But how do you distinguish between that file, and a file called
>> 2017.json in a subdirectory called results-Q2?
> 
> When there's a will, there's a way:
> 
>  * Show a folder icon for a directory and a file icon for a file.

I'm blind, and need a text reader. How do I see your folder icon?

Or more importantly, how do I *input* your folder icon?

Or I'm using a text-only interface, because I'm SSH'ed into the computer
over a 2400 baud modem going through a noisy line.


>  * Do it URI style: path/to/results-Q2%2F2017.json

Wait, I see no slash in the file name. How am I supposed to tell my mum to
open the file "results-Q2/2017.json" when it doesn't display the slash? Do
I have to memorise the hex code for / in some obscure system?

How do I distinguish between results-Q2%2F2017.json and results-Q2/2017.json
if the later displays like the former?


>  * Do it C style: path/to/results-Q2\/2017.json

That can't be right. The file name is supposed to be results-Q2/2017.json,
not results-Q2V2017.json.

You're deliberately trying to make things hard for my dear ole mum, aren't
you? You know she doesn't wear her glasses when reading file names.


>  * Do it Python style: [ "path", "to", "results-Q2/2017.json" ]

You got the path wrong. The directory portion is a single directory called
literally:

["path", "to",

(ending with a space, and don't ask me who named this directory, but they
are legal characters so you have to expect them to be used...) and the
filename portion is actually 

"results-Q2/2017.json" ]

so you actually have to write:

['["path", "to", ', '"results-Q2/2017.json" ]']

My dear ole mum just had a stroke trying to understand that, I hope you're
happy now. You brute.


>  * Do it Lisp style: (path to results-Q2/2017.json)
> 
> I'm sure you can come up with several other workable solutions.

You left the prefix "un" out of that adjective.

But all joking aside, of course you can create a complex, fragile, hard to
use system for escaping the record separator character in file names. Do
you imagine that you're the first person who thought of that?

But what does it buy you? *One more character*.

Or, for Windows, I suppose a dozen or so more characters:

https://support.office.com/en-us/article/Invalid-characters-in-file-or-folder-names-or-invalid-file-types-in-OneDrive-for-Business-64883A5D-228E-48F5-B3D2-EB39E07630FA

Either way, you're creating a world of pain for your users, for buggar all
extra benefit.

But if I could borrow Guido's time machine, I'd go back and convince the
file system people to use ^ as the record separator, rather than slash or
backslash or colon. Caret is *much* less likely to be useful in file names
than forward slash (often used for dates) or colon, or even backslash.

^home^steve^document.txt


I'm sure I'd get used to it in a few years... 

Next: convince keyboard manufacturers to move the caret from SHIFT-6 to a
plain, unshifted key. Buggared if I'm going to hit shift every time I want
to use an absolute path...



-- 
Steve
?Cheer up,? they said, ?things could be worse.? So I cheered up, and sure
enough, things got worse.



From steve+python at pearwood.info  Sat Apr  1 13:43:03 2017
From: steve+python at pearwood.info (Steve D'Aprano)
Date: Sun, 02 Apr 2017 03:43:03 +1000
Subject: Text-mode apps (Was :Who are the "spacists"?)
References: <CAE6NSRD=LLyj2qdBR_YX_MkubocQCURVivkHg=+62qgZZ3qCQw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPTjJmo6mxAxKQgqNRLFoX6EAnRrwoK6B8f7ids_RbWQ8VoiYg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAE6NSRDsN8vTPkt4E4LU6JGMEqUME3DQ73GPZ-f_7uVCR-aGrw@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.38.1490547441.2634.python-list@python.org>
 <58d80413$0$1595$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <CAE6NSRDpdadqORG1w0529bvvw_Gkoau8xTga3LYS=LfGCmXuqg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPTjJmojKPE3d4y5YEJJuGer174Yv0ZcobJGOp8rmYgYYYefbg@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.57.1490558002.2634.python-list@python.org>
 <626fc6cf-0cf9-4efa-a3ff-f9ca2ddcb7fd@googlegroups.com>
 <CAPTjJmqDU1Wr4y0G=BmYCjEdKLC0_Ch-fNoM2cOykX1vB5B-5Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.136.1490852628.2634.python-list@python.org>
 <ee1ada22-ce6c-4e21-b5ae-cbbbaca0b8ba@googlegroups.com>
 <58dfcea3$0$1596$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <87r31ct6x5.fsf@elektro.pacujo.net>
 <87fuhst5a8.fsf@universite-de-strasbourg.fr.invalid>
Message-ID: <58dfe6a9$0$1616$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>

On Sun, 2 Apr 2017 03:18 am, Alain Ketterlin wrote:

> Marko Rauhamaa <marko at pacujo.net> writes:
> 
>> It would be nice to be able to use a / in my file names. Funny enough,
>> I'm allowed to use a zillion unprintable characters in my file names but
>> no slashes allowed.
>>
>> Example:
>>
>>    results-Q2/2017.json
> 
> Use U+2215 (DIVISION SLASH).

That is *deliciously* evil. I like it.
 
> I have tried this once. "Next time you're fired/dead" (and less pleasant
> variants) was the only comment I got from people I shared files with.

:-)

?home?steve?document


I'm sure you deserved everything they did to you :-)





-- 
Steve
?Cheer up,? they said, ?things could be worse.? So I cheered up, and sure
enough, things got worse.



From python.list at tim.thechases.com  Sat Apr  1 13:53:02 2017
From: python.list at tim.thechases.com (Tim Chase)
Date: Sat, 1 Apr 2017 12:53:02 -0500
Subject: Text-mode apps (Was :Who are the "spacists"?)
In-Reply-To: <58dfdeda$0$1611$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
References: <CAE6NSRD=LLyj2qdBR_YX_MkubocQCURVivkHg=+62qgZZ3qCQw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPTjJmo6mxAxKQgqNRLFoX6EAnRrwoK6B8f7ids_RbWQ8VoiYg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAE6NSRDsN8vTPkt4E4LU6JGMEqUME3DQ73GPZ-f_7uVCR-aGrw@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.38.1490547441.2634.python-list@python.org>
 <58d80413$0$1595$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <CAE6NSRDpdadqORG1w0529bvvw_Gkoau8xTga3LYS=LfGCmXuqg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPTjJmojKPE3d4y5YEJJuGer174Yv0ZcobJGOp8rmYgYYYefbg@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.57.1490558002.2634.python-list@python.org>
 <626fc6cf-0cf9-4efa-a3ff-f9ca2ddcb7fd@googlegroups.com>
 <CAPTjJmqDU1Wr4y0G=BmYCjEdKLC0_Ch-fNoM2cOykX1vB5B-5Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.136.1490852628.2634.python-list@python.org>
 <ee1ada22-ce6c-4e21-b5ae-cbbbaca0b8ba@googlegroups.com>
 <58dfcea3$0$1596$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <87r31ct6x5.fsf@elektro.pacujo.net>
 <58dfdeda$0$1611$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
Message-ID: <20170401125302.4d587feb@bigbox.christie.dr>

On 2017-04-02 03:09, Steve D'Aprano wrote:
> *Whatever* record separator you choose to use, whether it is
> slash / or backslash \ or colon : or Ctrl-^ RS or U+113A HANGUL
> CHOSEONG SIOS-PHIEUPH, you can't *also* use it as a non-record
> separator.

Well, one could use 0x1C (FS=File Separator) which at least has the
semantic meaning and would be far less likely to be desired in
file-names.

That said, I'm not sure I want to try and enter 0x1C every time I
intend to compose a complex path.  But that's an interface problem,
right? ;-)

-tkc





From python.list at tim.thechases.com  Sat Apr  1 13:57:18 2017
From: python.list at tim.thechases.com (Tim Chase)
Date: Sat, 1 Apr 2017 12:57:18 -0500
Subject: Text-mode apps (Was :Who are the "spacists"?)
In-Reply-To: <87r31ct6x5.fsf@elektro.pacujo.net>
References: <CAE6NSRD=LLyj2qdBR_YX_MkubocQCURVivkHg=+62qgZZ3qCQw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPTjJmo6mxAxKQgqNRLFoX6EAnRrwoK6B8f7ids_RbWQ8VoiYg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAE6NSRDsN8vTPkt4E4LU6JGMEqUME3DQ73GPZ-f_7uVCR-aGrw@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.38.1490547441.2634.python-list@python.org>
 <58d80413$0$1595$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <CAE6NSRDpdadqORG1w0529bvvw_Gkoau8xTga3LYS=LfGCmXuqg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPTjJmojKPE3d4y5YEJJuGer174Yv0ZcobJGOp8rmYgYYYefbg@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.57.1490558002.2634.python-list@python.org>
 <626fc6cf-0cf9-4efa-a3ff-f9ca2ddcb7fd@googlegroups.com>
 <CAPTjJmqDU1Wr4y0G=BmYCjEdKLC0_Ch-fNoM2cOykX1vB5B-5Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.136.1490852628.2634.python-list@python.org>
 <ee1ada22-ce6c-4e21-b5ae-cbbbaca0b8ba@googlegroups.com>
 <58dfcea3$0$1596$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <87r31ct6x5.fsf@elektro.pacujo.net>
Message-ID: <20170401125718.05eabdab@bigbox.christie.dr>

On 2017-04-01 19:43, Marko Rauhamaa wrote:
> It would be nice to be able to use a / in my file names. Funny
> enough, I'm allowed to use a zillion unprintable characters in my
> file names but no slashes allowed.
> 
> Example:
> 
>    results-Q2/2017.json

You can:

  $ touch $(/usr/bin/printf "results-Q2\u22152017.")


Now, whether one would find it *prudent*, that's another matter. ;-)

-tkc







From eryksun at gmail.com  Sat Apr  1 14:45:03 2017
From: eryksun at gmail.com (eryk sun)
Date: Sat, 1 Apr 2017 18:45:03 +0000
Subject: Text-mode apps (Was :Who are the "spacists"?)
In-Reply-To: <58dfe5b3$0$1616$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
References: <CAE6NSRD=LLyj2qdBR_YX_MkubocQCURVivkHg=+62qgZZ3qCQw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPTjJmo6mxAxKQgqNRLFoX6EAnRrwoK6B8f7ids_RbWQ8VoiYg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAE6NSRDsN8vTPkt4E4LU6JGMEqUME3DQ73GPZ-f_7uVCR-aGrw@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.38.1490547441.2634.python-list@python.org>
 <58d80413$0$1595$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <CAE6NSRDpdadqORG1w0529bvvw_Gkoau8xTga3LYS=LfGCmXuqg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPTjJmojKPE3d4y5YEJJuGer174Yv0ZcobJGOp8rmYgYYYefbg@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.57.1490558002.2634.python-list@python.org>
 <626fc6cf-0cf9-4efa-a3ff-f9ca2ddcb7fd@googlegroups.com>
 <CAPTjJmqDU1Wr4y0G=BmYCjEdKLC0_Ch-fNoM2cOykX1vB5B-5Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.136.1490852628.2634.python-list@python.org>
 <ee1ada22-ce6c-4e21-b5ae-cbbbaca0b8ba@googlegroups.com>
 <58dfcea3$0$1596$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <87r31ct6x5.fsf@elektro.pacujo.net>
 <CAPTjJmonZkqjxobneLO+UsAt9Hc54P-3MHjJ3xhMGyKFXs-DWw@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.14.1491065715.2961.python-list@python.org>
 <87h928t5r7.fsf@elektro.pacujo.net>
 <58dfe5b3$0$1616$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
Message-ID: <CACL+1ati6jjMYQP48g8BSRMjukxbo00mgQUCk2J_8QJOMb1zkw@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Apr 1, 2017 at 5:38 PM, Steve D'Aprano
<steve+python at pearwood.info> wrote:
> Or, for Windows, I suppose a dozen or so more characters:
>
> https://support.office.com/en-us/article/Invalid-characters-in-file-or-folder-names-or-invalid-
> file-types-in-OneDrive-for-Business-64883A5D-228E-48F5-B3D2-EB39E07630FA

It's more than a dozen reserved characters. If we're strictly
following the file-system runtime library conventions, then all ASCII
control characters (0-31) are reserved as well as pipe; the path
separators slash, backslash, and colon (named streams); and the
wildcard characters asterisk, question mark, less than, greater than,
and double quote.

Except for backslash, which is reserved by the object manager, these
reservations are imposed by the FsRtl, and in theory I think a custom
file system *could* ignore this. This would require using the \\?\
prefix and, in some cases, it would also require applications to use
the native NT API in order to avoid DOS conventions. It would also
need some private escape sequence to tell the file system, for
example, that an asterisk in a directory listing filter isn't supposed
to be a wildcard. These constraints would be too cumbersome,
confusing, and unworkable in general, so the system's use would
probably need to be restricted to a specific set of applications or an
NT subsystem that can hide the implementation details.

For a real-world example, the Linux subsystem in Windows 10 (WSL)
stores the POSIX namespace files that it creates using regular files
in a hidden folder in the user's profile. It has to escape characters
that are reserved:

    $ touch 'test*?<>":\|.txt'

    C:\>dir /b %localappdata%\lxss\home\%username%\test*
    test#002A#003F#003C#003E#0022#003A#005C#007C.txt


From python at mrabarnett.plus.com  Sat Apr  1 14:54:32 2017
From: python at mrabarnett.plus.com (MRAB)
Date: Sat, 1 Apr 2017 19:54:32 +0100
Subject: Text-mode apps (Was :Who are the "spacists"?)
In-Reply-To: <87r31ct6x5.fsf@elektro.pacujo.net>
References: <CAE6NSRD=LLyj2qdBR_YX_MkubocQCURVivkHg=+62qgZZ3qCQw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPTjJmo6mxAxKQgqNRLFoX6EAnRrwoK6B8f7ids_RbWQ8VoiYg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAE6NSRDsN8vTPkt4E4LU6JGMEqUME3DQ73GPZ-f_7uVCR-aGrw@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.38.1490547441.2634.python-list@python.org>
 <58d80413$0$1595$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <CAE6NSRDpdadqORG1w0529bvvw_Gkoau8xTga3LYS=LfGCmXuqg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPTjJmojKPE3d4y5YEJJuGer174Yv0ZcobJGOp8rmYgYYYefbg@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.57.1490558002.2634.python-list@python.org>
 <626fc6cf-0cf9-4efa-a3ff-f9ca2ddcb7fd@googlegroups.com>
 <CAPTjJmqDU1Wr4y0G=BmYCjEdKLC0_Ch-fNoM2cOykX1vB5B-5Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.136.1490852628.2634.python-list@python.org>
 <ee1ada22-ce6c-4e21-b5ae-cbbbaca0b8ba@googlegroups.com>
 <58dfcea3$0$1596$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <87r31ct6x5.fsf@elektro.pacujo.net>
Message-ID: <f0ebc830-89b9-4466-9b8a-52250187a818@mrabarnett.plus.com>

On 2017-04-01 17:43, Marko Rauhamaa wrote:
> Steve D'Aprano <steve+python at pearwood.info>:
>
>> Open your eyes, there is a whole world past the borders of your insular,
>> close-minded little country. 95% of the world is not American, and there
>> are millions of Americans who want to use non-ASCII characters in their
>> file names, even non-Latin characters.
>
> It would be nice to be able to use a / in my file names. Funny enough,
> I'm allowed to use a zillion unprintable characters in my file names but
> no slashes allowed.
>
> Example:
>
>    results-Q2/2017.json
>
>
Try this instead:

     results-Q2?2017.json

:-)

(It's U+2215 "DIVISION SLASH").


From nimbiotics at gmail.com  Sat Apr  1 15:15:41 2017
From: nimbiotics at gmail.com (Mario R. Osorio)
Date: Sat, 1 Apr 2017 12:15:41 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Spam user
In-Reply-To: <XnsA7497B5475A58ammammatatiscalineti@148.251.67.112>
References: <058a9744-44bf-4e6b-ae1d-28e1e348e60b@googlegroups.com>
 <XnsA7497B5475A58ammammatatiscalineti@148.251.67.112>
Message-ID: <d0e9d036-2924-4c2c-99b1-0d8cb02b93df@googlegroups.com>

I'm not in the business of starting an argument about best/worse newsreader, Ammammata, but could you please recommend a few?

TIA


From mikhailwas at gmail.com  Sat Apr  1 16:07:48 2017
From: mikhailwas at gmail.com (Mikhail V)
Date: Sat, 1 Apr 2017 22:07:48 +0200
Subject: Text-mode apps (Was :Who are the "spacists"?)
In-Reply-To: <04f771fe-1c40-48e9-85d7-3b743108c5eb@googlegroups.com>
References: <CAE6NSRD=LLyj2qdBR_YX_MkubocQCURVivkHg=+62qgZZ3qCQw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPTjJmo6mxAxKQgqNRLFoX6EAnRrwoK6B8f7ids_RbWQ8VoiYg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAE6NSRDsN8vTPkt4E4LU6JGMEqUME3DQ73GPZ-f_7uVCR-aGrw@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.38.1490547441.2634.python-list@python.org>
 <58d80413$0$1595$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <CAE6NSRDpdadqORG1w0529bvvw_Gkoau8xTga3LYS=LfGCmXuqg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPTjJmojKPE3d4y5YEJJuGer174Yv0ZcobJGOp8rmYgYYYefbg@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.57.1490558002.2634.python-list@python.org>
 <626fc6cf-0cf9-4efa-a3ff-f9ca2ddcb7fd@googlegroups.com>
 <58dd12d2$0$1611$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <04f771fe-1c40-48e9-85d7-3b743108c5eb@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <CAE6NSRD8T-ou4p_ChUe6PJvaT4MWYvJL-tHz9knA-RFhNZPUwg@mail.gmail.com>

On 1 April 2017 at 06:38, Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohnson at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Thursday, March 30, 2017 at 9:14:54 AM UTC-5, Steve D'Aprano wrote:

>> - and making band names look ???? and annoy old fuddy-
>> duddies.
>
> So now we've even included graffiti artists in our little
> "inclusivity project". My, my... we are so _not_ mean!

Lol :)  First we'll wait for Unicode version with
table-drawing character for all possible corner styles
and line weights, and monospaced legible Arabic for
Chris' MUDs.


From No_spamming at noWhere_7073.org  Sat Apr  1 16:22:59 2017
From: No_spamming at noWhere_7073.org (Robert L.)
Date: Sat, 1 Apr 2017 20:22:59 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: How to flatten only one sub list of list of lists
References: <2c513652-c365-4a92-b204-d986fa41b7a0@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <obp271$1hk9$1@gioia.aioe.org>

On 3/1/2017, Sayth Renshaw wrote:

> How can I flatten just a specific sublist of each list in a list of lists?
> 
> So if I had this data
> 
> 
> [   ['46295', 'Montauk', '3', '60', '85', ['19', '5', '1', '0 $277790.00']],
>     ['46295', 'Dark Eyes', '5', '59', '83', ['6', '4', '1', '0 $105625.00']],
>     ['46295', 'Machinegun Jubs', '6', '53', '77', ['6', '2', '1', '1 $71685.00']],
>     ['46295', 'Zara Bay', '1', '53', '77', ['12', '2', '3', '3 $112645.00']]]
> 
> 
> How can I make it be
> 
> 
> [   ['46295', 'Montauk', '3', '60', '85', '19', '5', '1', '0 $277790.00'],
>     ['46295', 'Dark Eyes', '5', '59', '83', '6', '4', '1', '0 $105625.00'],
>     ['46295', 'Machinegun Jubs', '6', '53', '77', '6', '2', '1', '1 $71685.00'],
>     ['46295', 'Zara Bay', '1', '53', '77', '12', '2', '3', '3 $112645.00']]
> 
> Been looking around but most solutions just entirely flatten everything.
> This was popular on SO but yeah it flattens everything  I want to be more selective
> 
> def flatten(lst):
>     for elem in lst:
>         if type(elem) in (tuple, list):
>             for i in flatten(elem):
>                 yield i
>         else:
>             yield elem
> 

[['46295', 'Montauk', '3', '60', '85', ['19', '5', '1', '0 $277790.00']],
 ['46295', 'Dark Eyes', '5', '59', '83', ['6', '4', '1', '0 $105625.00']],
 ['46295', 'Machinegun Jubs', '6', '53', '77', ['6', '2', '1', '1 $71685.00']],
 ['46295', 'Zara Bay', '1', '53', '77', ['12', '2', '3', '3 $112645.00']]].
map( &:flatten )

 ===>
[["46295", "Montauk", "3", "60", "85", "19", "5", "1", "0 $277790.00"],
 ["46295", "Dark Eyes", "5", "59", "83", "6", "4", "1", "0 $105625.00"],
 ["46295", "Machinegun Jubs", "6", "53", "77", "6", "2", "1", "1 $71685.00"],
 ["46295", "Zara Bay", "1", "53", "77", "12", "2", "3", "3 $112645.00"]]

-- 
[T]he driving force behind mass immigration is the organized Jewish community,
which feels its interests are best served by a "diverse" society divided
between antagonistic groups that can be easily dominated by their cohesive and
privileged tribe.
http://www.renseradioarchives.com/dduke/


From marko at pacujo.net  Sat Apr  1 16:47:47 2017
From: marko at pacujo.net (Marko Rauhamaa)
Date: Sat, 01 Apr 2017 23:47:47 +0300
Subject: Text-mode apps (Was :Who are the "spacists"?)
References: <CAE6NSRD=LLyj2qdBR_YX_MkubocQCURVivkHg=+62qgZZ3qCQw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAE6NSRDsN8vTPkt4E4LU6JGMEqUME3DQ73GPZ-f_7uVCR-aGrw@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.38.1490547441.2634.python-list@python.org>
 <58d80413$0$1595$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <CAE6NSRDpdadqORG1w0529bvvw_Gkoau8xTga3LYS=LfGCmXuqg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPTjJmojKPE3d4y5YEJJuGer174Yv0ZcobJGOp8rmYgYYYefbg@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.57.1490558002.2634.python-list@python.org>
 <626fc6cf-0cf9-4efa-a3ff-f9ca2ddcb7fd@googlegroups.com>
 <CAPTjJmqDU1Wr4y0G=BmYCjEdKLC0_Ch-fNoM2cOykX1vB5B-5Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.136.1490852628.2634.python-list@python.org>
 <ee1ada22-ce6c-4e21-b5ae-cbbbaca0b8ba@googlegroups.com>
 <58dfcea3$0$1596$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <87r31ct6x5.fsf@elektro.pacujo.net>
 <CAPTjJmonZkqjxobneLO+UsAt9Hc54P-3MHjJ3xhMGyKFXs-DWw@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.14.1491065715.2961.python-list@python.org>
 <87h928t5r7.fsf@elektro.pacujo.net>
 <58dfe5b3$0$1616$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
Message-ID: <87a87zua6k.fsf@elektro.pacujo.net>

Steve D'Aprano <steve+python at pearwood.info>:

> But if I could borrow Guido's time machine, I'd go back and convince
> the file system people to use ^ as the record separator, rather than
> slash or backslash or colon. Caret is *much* less likely to be useful
> in file names than forward slash (often used for dates) or colon, or
> even backslash.

You are stuck with the axiom that pathname and its representation are
one and the same thing.

URI's make the distinction clear. Say you wanted to express a resource

   p??ty?/2

as part of a URI. URIs are to contain a subset of ASCII only so an
encoding scheme has been devised. That resource is expressed like this:

   p%c3%a4%c3%a4ty%c3%b6%2f2

A far more convenient escaping scheme could have been devised for
pathnames.


Marko


From rosuav at gmail.com  Sat Apr  1 16:57:15 2017
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Sun, 2 Apr 2017 06:57:15 +1000
Subject: Text-mode apps (Was :Who are the "spacists"?)
In-Reply-To: <CAE6NSRD8T-ou4p_ChUe6PJvaT4MWYvJL-tHz9knA-RFhNZPUwg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAE6NSRD=LLyj2qdBR_YX_MkubocQCURVivkHg=+62qgZZ3qCQw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPTjJmo6mxAxKQgqNRLFoX6EAnRrwoK6B8f7ids_RbWQ8VoiYg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAE6NSRDsN8vTPkt4E4LU6JGMEqUME3DQ73GPZ-f_7uVCR-aGrw@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.38.1490547441.2634.python-list@python.org>
 <58d80413$0$1595$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <CAE6NSRDpdadqORG1w0529bvvw_Gkoau8xTga3LYS=LfGCmXuqg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPTjJmojKPE3d4y5YEJJuGer174Yv0ZcobJGOp8rmYgYYYefbg@mail.gmail.com>
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 <626fc6cf-0cf9-4efa-a3ff-f9ca2ddcb7fd@googlegroups.com>
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 <CAE6NSRD8T-ou4p_ChUe6PJvaT4MWYvJL-tHz9knA-RFhNZPUwg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmqyUChd3ZuXgs=sDRKNhJB-00fobtg1X2qqeOmr3r3o8w@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Apr 2, 2017 at 6:07 AM, Mikhail V <mikhailwas at gmail.com> wrote:
> On 1 April 2017 at 06:38, Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohnson at gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Thursday, March 30, 2017 at 9:14:54 AM UTC-5, Steve D'Aprano wrote:
>
>>> - and making band names look ???? and annoy old fuddy-
>>> duddies.
>>
>> So now we've even included graffiti artists in our little
>> "inclusivity project". My, my... we are so _not_ mean!
>
> Lol :)  First we'll wait for Unicode version with
> table-drawing character for all possible corner styles
> and line weights, and monospaced legible Arabic for
> Chris' MUDs.

Not sure what you mean by monospaced, given that Arabic is RTL anyway.
I mean, when your code is capable of handling all the oddities of
mixed LTR and RTL text, variable-width characters are almost trivially
easy to handle. (And yes, I do indeed handle them just fine.)

ChrisA


From rosuav at gmail.com  Sat Apr  1 17:00:49 2017
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Sun, 2 Apr 2017 07:00:49 +1000
Subject: Text-mode apps (Was :Who are the "spacists"?)
In-Reply-To: <87a87zua6k.fsf@elektro.pacujo.net>
References: <CAE6NSRD=LLyj2qdBR_YX_MkubocQCURVivkHg=+62qgZZ3qCQw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAE6NSRDsN8vTPkt4E4LU6JGMEqUME3DQ73GPZ-f_7uVCR-aGrw@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.38.1490547441.2634.python-list@python.org>
 <58d80413$0$1595$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <CAE6NSRDpdadqORG1w0529bvvw_Gkoau8xTga3LYS=LfGCmXuqg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPTjJmojKPE3d4y5YEJJuGer174Yv0ZcobJGOp8rmYgYYYefbg@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.57.1490558002.2634.python-list@python.org>
 <626fc6cf-0cf9-4efa-a3ff-f9ca2ddcb7fd@googlegroups.com>
 <CAPTjJmqDU1Wr4y0G=BmYCjEdKLC0_Ch-fNoM2cOykX1vB5B-5Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.136.1490852628.2634.python-list@python.org>
 <ee1ada22-ce6c-4e21-b5ae-cbbbaca0b8ba@googlegroups.com>
 <58dfcea3$0$1596$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <87r31ct6x5.fsf@elektro.pacujo.net>
 <CAPTjJmonZkqjxobneLO+UsAt9Hc54P-3MHjJ3xhMGyKFXs-DWw@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.14.1491065715.2961.python-list@python.org>
 <87h928t5r7.fsf@elektro.pacujo.net>
 <58dfe5b3$0$1616$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <87a87zua6k.fsf@elektro.pacujo.net>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmqhyQPWyJ2wpopUXn1LTbR+Cnz=-NfoTmMCH5WJXN08CQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Apr 2, 2017 at 6:47 AM, Marko Rauhamaa <marko at pacujo.net> wrote:
> You are stuck with the axiom that pathname and its representation are
> one and the same thing.
>
> URI's make the distinction clear. Say you wanted to express a resource
>
>    p??ty?/2
>
> as part of a URI. URIs are to contain a subset of ASCII only so an
> encoding scheme has been devised. That resource is expressed like this:
>
>    p%c3%a4%c3%a4ty%c3%b6%2f2
>
> A far more convenient escaping scheme could have been devised for
> pathnames.

Definitely. We should treat file names like domain names. "B?cher.ch"
gets represented internally as "xn--bcher-kva.ch". That would solve
all the problems, and there's no way that it could create more.

ChrisA


From marko at pacujo.net  Sat Apr  1 17:06:44 2017
From: marko at pacujo.net (Marko Rauhamaa)
Date: Sun, 02 Apr 2017 00:06:44 +0300
Subject: Text-mode apps (Was :Who are the "spacists"?)
References: <CAE6NSRD=LLyj2qdBR_YX_MkubocQCURVivkHg=+62qgZZ3qCQw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAE6NSRDpdadqORG1w0529bvvw_Gkoau8xTga3LYS=LfGCmXuqg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPTjJmojKPE3d4y5YEJJuGer174Yv0ZcobJGOp8rmYgYYYefbg@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.57.1490558002.2634.python-list@python.org>
 <626fc6cf-0cf9-4efa-a3ff-f9ca2ddcb7fd@googlegroups.com>
 <CAPTjJmqDU1Wr4y0G=BmYCjEdKLC0_Ch-fNoM2cOykX1vB5B-5Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.136.1490852628.2634.python-list@python.org>
 <ee1ada22-ce6c-4e21-b5ae-cbbbaca0b8ba@googlegroups.com>
 <58dfcea3$0$1596$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <87r31ct6x5.fsf@elektro.pacujo.net>
 <CAPTjJmonZkqjxobneLO+UsAt9Hc54P-3MHjJ3xhMGyKFXs-DWw@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.14.1491065715.2961.python-list@python.org>
 <87h928t5r7.fsf@elektro.pacujo.net>
 <58dfe5b3$0$1616$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <87a87zua6k.fsf@elektro.pacujo.net>
 <CAPTjJmqhyQPWyJ2wpopUXn1LTbR+Cnz=-NfoTmMCH5WJXN08CQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.23.1491080455.2961.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <871stbu9az.fsf@elektro.pacujo.net>

Chris Angelico <rosuav at gmail.com>:

> On Sun, Apr 2, 2017 at 6:47 AM, Marko Rauhamaa <marko at pacujo.net> wrote:
>> A far more convenient escaping scheme could have been devised for
>> pathnames.
>
> Definitely. We should treat file names like domain names. "B?cher.ch"
> gets represented internally as "xn--bcher-kva.ch". That would solve
> all the problems, and there's no way that it could create more.

Note that Python can express any text string, including one with a quote
character. I don't know if Python's escaping scheme is creating more
problems than it is solving.


Marko


From No_spamming at noWhere_7073.org  Sat Apr  1 17:12:34 2017
From: No_spamming at noWhere_7073.org (Robert L.)
Date: Sat, 1 Apr 2017 21:12:34 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: sorting list python
References: <o5ogv8$13mj$1@gioia.aioe.org> <o5oilu$n9k$1@blaine.gmane.org>
 <mailman.10.1484770857.9761.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <obp541$1m5h$1@gioia.aioe.org>

On 1/18/2017, Peter Otten wrote:

> with partite.txt looking like this
> 
> > 74' Kessie'
> > 90' + 4' D'alessandro
> > 51' Mchedlidze
> > 54' Banega
> > 56' Icardi
> > 65' Icardi
> > 14' Sau
> 
> 
> Assuming you want to perform a numerical sort on the numbers before the ' 
> you can just apply sorted
> 
> with open(...) as f:
>     print("".join(sorted(f))
> 
> as long as all number strings have the same length. 
> 
> If that's not the case python's sorted() has decorate-sort-undecorate 
> capabilities built in -- no need to do it manually:
> 
> with open("partite.txt") as f:
>     by_number = sorted(f, key=lambda line: int(line.partition("'")[0]))
>     print("".join(by_number))

puts IO.readlines('foo.txt').sort_by( &:to_i )

14' Sau
51' Mchedlidze
54' Banega
56' Icardi
65' Icardi
74' Kessie'
90' + 4' D'alessandro
    ==>nil

-- 
Jews totally run Hollywood....  But I don't care if Americans think we're
running the news media, Hollywood, Wall Street, or the government.  I just care
that we get to keep running them. --- Joel Stein
articles.latimes.com/2008/dec/19/opinion/oe-stein19
archive.org/download/DavidDukeTv/DoJewsControlTheMediaTheLaTimesSaysYes.flv


From rosuav at gmail.com  Sat Apr  1 17:22:21 2017
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Sun, 2 Apr 2017 07:22:21 +1000
Subject: Text-mode apps (Was :Who are the "spacists"?)
In-Reply-To: <871stbu9az.fsf@elektro.pacujo.net>
References: <CAE6NSRD=LLyj2qdBR_YX_MkubocQCURVivkHg=+62qgZZ3qCQw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAE6NSRDpdadqORG1w0529bvvw_Gkoau8xTga3LYS=LfGCmXuqg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPTjJmojKPE3d4y5YEJJuGer174Yv0ZcobJGOp8rmYgYYYefbg@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.57.1490558002.2634.python-list@python.org>
 <626fc6cf-0cf9-4efa-a3ff-f9ca2ddcb7fd@googlegroups.com>
 <CAPTjJmqDU1Wr4y0G=BmYCjEdKLC0_Ch-fNoM2cOykX1vB5B-5Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.136.1490852628.2634.python-list@python.org>
 <ee1ada22-ce6c-4e21-b5ae-cbbbaca0b8ba@googlegroups.com>
 <58dfcea3$0$1596$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <87r31ct6x5.fsf@elektro.pacujo.net>
 <CAPTjJmonZkqjxobneLO+UsAt9Hc54P-3MHjJ3xhMGyKFXs-DWw@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.14.1491065715.2961.python-list@python.org>
 <87h928t5r7.fsf@elektro.pacujo.net>
 <58dfe5b3$0$1616$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <87a87zua6k.fsf@elektro.pacujo.net>
 <CAPTjJmqhyQPWyJ2wpopUXn1LTbR+Cnz=-NfoTmMCH5WJXN08CQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.23.1491080455.2961.python-list@python.org>
 <871stbu9az.fsf@elektro.pacujo.net>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmprWwF4fzR2j1FYywyXrs-kZ7XF1xXOPBHPjVAmjyk09A@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Apr 2, 2017 at 7:06 AM, Marko Rauhamaa <marko at pacujo.net> wrote:
> Chris Angelico <rosuav at gmail.com>:
>
>> On Sun, Apr 2, 2017 at 6:47 AM, Marko Rauhamaa <marko at pacujo.net> wrote:
>>> A far more convenient escaping scheme could have been devised for
>>> pathnames.
>>
>> Definitely. We should treat file names like domain names. "B?cher.ch"
>> gets represented internally as "xn--bcher-kva.ch". That would solve
>> all the problems, and there's no way that it could create more.
>
> Note that Python can express any text string, including one with a quote
> character. I don't know if Python's escaping scheme is creating more
> problems than it is solving.

Yes it can; however, there is no way within Python to have a string
that can represent two strings, which is what directory separators do.
Ultimately, all you really get by referencing Python's string literals
is an escaping system: "\\" for a backslash, and then you can use "\?"
for various special symbols to change their meaning.

ChrisA


From marko at pacujo.net  Sat Apr  1 17:35:48 2017
From: marko at pacujo.net (Marko Rauhamaa)
Date: Sun, 02 Apr 2017 00:35:48 +0300
Subject: Text-mode apps (Was :Who are the "spacists"?)
References: <CAE6NSRD=LLyj2qdBR_YX_MkubocQCURVivkHg=+62qgZZ3qCQw@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.57.1490558002.2634.python-list@python.org>
 <626fc6cf-0cf9-4efa-a3ff-f9ca2ddcb7fd@googlegroups.com>
 <CAPTjJmqDU1Wr4y0G=BmYCjEdKLC0_Ch-fNoM2cOykX1vB5B-5Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.136.1490852628.2634.python-list@python.org>
 <ee1ada22-ce6c-4e21-b5ae-cbbbaca0b8ba@googlegroups.com>
 <58dfcea3$0$1596$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <87r31ct6x5.fsf@elektro.pacujo.net>
 <CAPTjJmonZkqjxobneLO+UsAt9Hc54P-3MHjJ3xhMGyKFXs-DWw@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.14.1491065715.2961.python-list@python.org>
 <87h928t5r7.fsf@elektro.pacujo.net>
 <58dfe5b3$0$1616$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <87a87zua6k.fsf@elektro.pacujo.net>
 <CAPTjJmqhyQPWyJ2wpopUXn1LTbR+Cnz=-NfoTmMCH5WJXN08CQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.23.1491080455.2961.python-list@python.org>
 <871stbu9az.fsf@elektro.pacujo.net>
 <CAPTjJmprWwF4fzR2j1FYywyXrs-kZ7XF1xXOPBHPjVAmjyk09A@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.24.1491081745.2961.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <87wpb3ste3.fsf@elektro.pacujo.net>

Chris Angelico <rosuav at gmail.com>:

> there is no way within Python to have a string that can represent two
> strings, which is what directory separators do.

Really? Try:

   >>> repr(("a", "b"))
   "('a', 'b')"

There! A string that represents two strings.

Note, however, that Python programs generally don't restrict themselves
to expressing objects via strings. There are even objects with no string
representation at all.

A pathname is a list of strings. Python could naturally express it as
just that:

  [ "usr", "bin", "python3" ]


I'm not really proposing any change to the status quo. What's done is
done. However, I do think it is awkward to ban one particular, very
common character while allowing all the rest.


Marko


From mikhailwas at gmail.com  Sat Apr  1 17:40:33 2017
From: mikhailwas at gmail.com (Mikhail V)
Date: Sat, 1 Apr 2017 23:40:33 +0200
Subject: Text-mode apps (Was :Who are the "spacists"?)
In-Reply-To: <CAPTjJmqyUChd3ZuXgs=sDRKNhJB-00fobtg1X2qqeOmr3r3o8w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAE6NSRD=LLyj2qdBR_YX_MkubocQCURVivkHg=+62qgZZ3qCQw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPTjJmo6mxAxKQgqNRLFoX6EAnRrwoK6B8f7ids_RbWQ8VoiYg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAE6NSRDsN8vTPkt4E4LU6JGMEqUME3DQ73GPZ-f_7uVCR-aGrw@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.38.1490547441.2634.python-list@python.org>
 <58d80413$0$1595$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <CAE6NSRDpdadqORG1w0529bvvw_Gkoau8xTga3LYS=LfGCmXuqg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPTjJmojKPE3d4y5YEJJuGer174Yv0ZcobJGOp8rmYgYYYefbg@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.57.1490558002.2634.python-list@python.org>
 <626fc6cf-0cf9-4efa-a3ff-f9ca2ddcb7fd@googlegroups.com>
 <58dd12d2$0$1611$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <04f771fe-1c40-48e9-85d7-3b743108c5eb@googlegroups.com>
 <CAE6NSRD8T-ou4p_ChUe6PJvaT4MWYvJL-tHz9knA-RFhNZPUwg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPTjJmqyUChd3ZuXgs=sDRKNhJB-00fobtg1X2qqeOmr3r3o8w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAE6NSRC7T15P7Ph69nrr8zF_LRtfedgzH8LKNqKA3Tjsfrrz_w@mail.gmail.com>

On 1 April 2017 at 22:57, Chris Angelico <rosuav at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Sun, Apr 2, 2017 at 6:07 AM, Mikhail V <mikhailwas at gmail.com> wrote:
>> On 1 April 2017 at 06:38, Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohnson at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> On Thursday, March 30, 2017 at 9:14:54 AM UTC-5, Steve D'Aprano wrote:
>>
>>>> - and making band names look ???? and annoy old fuddy-
>>>> duddies.
>>>
>>> So now we've even included graffiti artists in our little
>>> "inclusivity project". My, my... we are so _not_ mean!
>>
>> Lol :)  First we'll wait for Unicode version with
>> table-drawing character for all possible corner styles
>> and line weights, and monospaced legible Arabic for
>> Chris' MUDs.
>
> Not sure what you mean by monospaced, given that Arabic is RTL anyway.
> I mean, when your code is capable of handling all the oddities of
> mixed LTR and RTL text, variable-width characters are almost trivially
> easy to handle. (And yes, I do indeed handle them just fine.)

Monospaced text = each glyph appears in a constant-width
box (the whole thread is about this). Nothing to do with writing
direction.
Both Windows and Linux default console renders monospaced
text only. Unless you use something else, which can render
both monospaced and proportional text, Arabic is
not adequatly presentable there. Eg alef's width is ca 0,2 sheen's width.
So one gets piles of poo instead of normal Arabic text in console.


From rosuav at gmail.com  Sat Apr  1 17:45:43 2017
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Sun, 2 Apr 2017 07:45:43 +1000
Subject: Text-mode apps (Was :Who are the "spacists"?)
In-Reply-To: <87wpb3ste3.fsf@elektro.pacujo.net>
References: <CAE6NSRD=LLyj2qdBR_YX_MkubocQCURVivkHg=+62qgZZ3qCQw@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.57.1490558002.2634.python-list@python.org>
 <626fc6cf-0cf9-4efa-a3ff-f9ca2ddcb7fd@googlegroups.com>
 <CAPTjJmqDU1Wr4y0G=BmYCjEdKLC0_Ch-fNoM2cOykX1vB5B-5Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.136.1490852628.2634.python-list@python.org>
 <ee1ada22-ce6c-4e21-b5ae-cbbbaca0b8ba@googlegroups.com>
 <58dfcea3$0$1596$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <87r31ct6x5.fsf@elektro.pacujo.net>
 <CAPTjJmonZkqjxobneLO+UsAt9Hc54P-3MHjJ3xhMGyKFXs-DWw@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.14.1491065715.2961.python-list@python.org>
 <87h928t5r7.fsf@elektro.pacujo.net>
 <58dfe5b3$0$1616$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <87a87zua6k.fsf@elektro.pacujo.net>
 <CAPTjJmqhyQPWyJ2wpopUXn1LTbR+Cnz=-NfoTmMCH5WJXN08CQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.23.1491080455.2961.python-list@python.org>
 <871stbu9az.fsf@elektro.pacujo.net>
 <CAPTjJmprWwF4fzR2j1FYywyXrs-kZ7XF1xXOPBHPjVAmjyk09A@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.24.1491081745.2961.python-list@python.org>
 <87wpb3ste3.fsf@elektro.pacujo.net>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmoUgzL=A3um6AkADgCr+K4JMLWbfVVsp9wmKiF6p21D7Q@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Apr 2, 2017 at 7:35 AM, Marko Rauhamaa <marko at pacujo.net> wrote:
> Chris Angelico <rosuav at gmail.com>:
>
>> there is no way within Python to have a string that can represent two
>> strings, which is what directory separators do.
>
> Really? Try:
>
>    >>> repr(("a", "b"))
>    "('a', 'b')"
>
> There! A string that represents two strings.

In the arbitrary sense that you can encode anything in any way and
then treat it as a string, yes, of course you can devise a system that
lets you represent two strings. But you were talking about the nature
of the string literal in Python, and what you have here is not a
string literal - it's a tuple. You do NOT want to allow file names to
be arbitrary code, nor even "something acceptable by
ast.literal_eval"; they should be simple strings. Otherwise, there's
no point even having them - just use file reference numbers (eg
inodes) instead, and force people to select them from a GUI menu every
time they want to work with a file.

ChrisA


From rosuav at gmail.com  Sat Apr  1 17:54:21 2017
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Sun, 2 Apr 2017 07:54:21 +1000
Subject: Text-mode apps (Was :Who are the "spacists"?)
In-Reply-To: <two-string-20170401224841@ram.dialup.fu-berlin.de>
References: <CAE6NSRD=LLyj2qdBR_YX_MkubocQCURVivkHg=+62qgZZ3qCQw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAE6NSRDpdadqORG1w0529bvvw_Gkoau8xTga3LYS=LfGCmXuqg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPTjJmojKPE3d4y5YEJJuGer174Yv0ZcobJGOp8rmYgYYYefbg@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.23.1491080455.2961.python-list@python.org>
 <871stbu9az.fsf@elektro.pacujo.net>
 <CAPTjJmprWwF4fzR2j1FYywyXrs-kZ7XF1xXOPBHPjVAmjyk09A@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.24.1491081745.2961.python-list@python.org>
 <two-string-20170401224841@ram.dialup.fu-berlin.de>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmrA8xy_VSRWG5koDb9A3DyBC17axaGAJkLHYXcQSwTF9Q@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Apr 2, 2017 at 7:49 AM, Stefan Ram <ram at zedat.fu-berlin.de> wrote:
> Chris Angelico <rosuav at gmail.com> writes:
>>Yes it can; however, there is no way within Python to have a string
>>that can represent two strings, which is what directory separators do.
>
>   To represent two strings, /internally/ ("within Python"),
>   a straightforward way would be a list of two strings.
>
>   If one wants to represent this list /as a single string/,
>   one can use any serialization of this list, for example,
>   using JSON.
>
>   (I have not read the whole thread, so I might have missed
>   some context here. I am just responding to what is quoted
>   above.)

The context is a file name, in which you need something that a user
can input which is capable of representing path components that
contain arbitrary characters. Currently, a Unix path always interprets
a slash as a directory separator, so there's no way to have a slash in
a file or directory name. If you want to have *every* component
capable of containing *any* character, you either need a string to be
able to represent two strings, or you need some sort of escaping
mechanism.

ChrisA


From mikhailwas at gmail.com  Sat Apr  1 18:16:24 2017
From: mikhailwas at gmail.com (Mikhail V)
Date: Sun, 2 Apr 2017 00:16:24 +0200
Subject: Text-mode apps (Was :Who are the "spacists"?)
In-Reply-To: <58dfcea3$0$1596$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
References: <CAE6NSRD=LLyj2qdBR_YX_MkubocQCURVivkHg=+62qgZZ3qCQw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPTjJmo6mxAxKQgqNRLFoX6EAnRrwoK6B8f7ids_RbWQ8VoiYg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAE6NSRDsN8vTPkt4E4LU6JGMEqUME3DQ73GPZ-f_7uVCR-aGrw@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.38.1490547441.2634.python-list@python.org>
 <58d80413$0$1595$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <CAE6NSRDpdadqORG1w0529bvvw_Gkoau8xTga3LYS=LfGCmXuqg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPTjJmojKPE3d4y5YEJJuGer174Yv0ZcobJGOp8rmYgYYYefbg@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.57.1490558002.2634.python-list@python.org>
 <626fc6cf-0cf9-4efa-a3ff-f9ca2ddcb7fd@googlegroups.com>
 <CAPTjJmqDU1Wr4y0G=BmYCjEdKLC0_Ch-fNoM2cOykX1vB5B-5Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.136.1490852628.2634.python-list@python.org>
 <ee1ada22-ce6c-4e21-b5ae-cbbbaca0b8ba@googlegroups.com>
 <58dfcea3$0$1596$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
Message-ID: <CAE6NSRA5JFOMovMDmCfPpkX9Sd8kBSSJnxmJ6YC3BVfkAi1xMA@mail.gmail.com>

On 1 April 2017 at 18:00, Steve D'Aprano <steve+python at pearwood.info> wrote:
> On Sat, 1 Apr 2017 12:17 pm, Rick Johnson wrote:
>
>> Most people just quietly change the filename and move on
>
>
> There are over a billion people in China, almost a billion more in India,
> about 140 million people in Russia, nearly 130 million people in Japan, 250
> million in Indonesia, about 290 million native Arabic speakers, and even 9
> million speakers of Hebrew.
>

Well, this is obvious, different characters in different
parts of the world, ministries of education, etc.
But will the sky fall if people name files using
latin letters? Look, I am Russian, nothing to do
with Ugly American :)
At my work I quietly change all filenames to translit.
This is for _simplification_ of all automation processes and
some other purposes. It makes my work with digital
materials seamless and as a positive side-effect makes
it easier for external service-providers to avoid
different surprises.
So it is _not_ in the first place because some software
cope badly with unicode, but because it is natural
and logical to use same glyphs for any language
(but strangely, many have difficulties with understanding
this, well.. the time has not come yet, let's wait few
hundreds years more)

BTW, why do you think people in China do not
want to use latin letters? I suppose there are a lot
of haters for those bizarre systems among natives
and indeed, many people stay illiterate simply
because it is too hard to learn and many
have problems reading those.

Let's go back in Europe, e.g. in Germany there were
many movements against those silly spelling rules and
many younger people ignore those in informal writing,
e.g. they write 'were' intead of 'w?re', 'fur' instead of 'f?r'
and do not capitalise nouns, and they are damn right about it.

So this all is just your personal view on the problem.

This reminds me of one anecdote:
A Pole and a Russian talk about languages:
Russian: our language is better, we have more
letters in our alphabet!
Pole: no, ours is better - we have more grammatical
cases!

Also I never install any language packages with software
and use only english versions, anyway most tutorials
will be in english and one can't force developers to
make turorials with screenshots for all languages.
And english UI looks for me always better and more intuitive.

> One of the excellent ways the PUAs have been used is by
> medieval researchers. They have been collecting the various
> special characters used by medieval scribes, and by private
> agreement putting them into a PUA area where special
> purpose software can use it. That way they can determine
> which of the thousands of special characters used by
> medieval monks are actually significant enough to graduate
> to genuine Unicode characters, and which are best handled
> some other way.

Now I don't see who wrote this ^ initially. Suppose Steve?
So IMO this is not an 'exellent' way. If I want to
make e.g. analysis of Voynich manuscript, I'll do
following: extract/draw glyphs and encode them,
say with integers 0..26.
And all rendering and analysis will be performed on
those integers.
For multiple-alphabet rendering I will use some
custom text format, e.g. with tags
<s="Voynich"> ... </s>, and for latin
<s="Latin">...</s> and etc.

Simple and effective.


Mikhail


From rosuav at gmail.com  Sat Apr  1 18:22:23 2017
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Sun, 2 Apr 2017 08:22:23 +1000
Subject: Text-mode apps (Was :Who are the "spacists"?)
In-Reply-To: <CAE6NSRA5JFOMovMDmCfPpkX9Sd8kBSSJnxmJ6YC3BVfkAi1xMA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAE6NSRD=LLyj2qdBR_YX_MkubocQCURVivkHg=+62qgZZ3qCQw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPTjJmo6mxAxKQgqNRLFoX6EAnRrwoK6B8f7ids_RbWQ8VoiYg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAE6NSRDsN8vTPkt4E4LU6JGMEqUME3DQ73GPZ-f_7uVCR-aGrw@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.38.1490547441.2634.python-list@python.org>
 <58d80413$0$1595$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <CAE6NSRDpdadqORG1w0529bvvw_Gkoau8xTga3LYS=LfGCmXuqg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPTjJmojKPE3d4y5YEJJuGer174Yv0ZcobJGOp8rmYgYYYefbg@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.57.1490558002.2634.python-list@python.org>
 <626fc6cf-0cf9-4efa-a3ff-f9ca2ddcb7fd@googlegroups.com>
 <CAPTjJmqDU1Wr4y0G=BmYCjEdKLC0_Ch-fNoM2cOykX1vB5B-5Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.136.1490852628.2634.python-list@python.org>
 <ee1ada22-ce6c-4e21-b5ae-cbbbaca0b8ba@googlegroups.com>
 <58dfcea3$0$1596$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <CAE6NSRA5JFOMovMDmCfPpkX9Sd8kBSSJnxmJ6YC3BVfkAi1xMA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmrgCJUpNobhqym9-opVTkLR5ykRthJqQORm7C7BcA3_NQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Apr 2, 2017 at 8:16 AM, Mikhail V <mikhailwas at gmail.com> wrote:
> For multiple-alphabet rendering I will use some
> custom text format, e.g. with tags
> <s="Voynich"> ... </s>, and for latin
> <s="Latin">...</s> and etc.
>
> Simple and effective.

For multi-alphabet rendering, I would rather use an even simpler
format: Remove the tags and use a consistent encoding.

Oh right, that's what Unicode is.

Have you ever actually *used* a system of tagged encodings? It is an
abomination.

ChrisA


From cs at zip.com.au  Sat Apr  1 18:28:42 2017
From: cs at zip.com.au (Cameron Simpson)
Date: Sun, 2 Apr 2017 08:28:42 +1000
Subject: python installs on OSX missing dbm.gnu
Message-ID: <20170401222842.GA25369@cskk.homeip.net>

I've got three different installs of Python 3.6.1 on my El Capitan Mac: 
MacPorts, homebrew and the .pkg from python.org.

For reasons I haven't divined, the homebrew and MacPorts ones abort with malloc 
related errors. So I went to install the distro from python.org, which happily 
does not.

However, both the homebrew and python.org installs lack "dbm.gnu", upon which 
my main project relies. Well, fair enough.

However, I do not know how to make it available to either. MacPorts has a 
py36-gdbm package which binds the gdbm library to Python. homebrew seems not to 
have such a thing and of course the python.org install is standalone.

PyPI seems not forthcoming either.

What should I be doing about this?

Cheers,
Cameron Simpson <cs at zip.com.au>


From cs at zip.com.au  Sat Apr  1 18:32:57 2017
From: cs at zip.com.au (Cameron Simpson)
Date: Sun, 2 Apr 2017 08:32:57 +1000
Subject: VirtualEnvs (venv) and Powershell
In-Reply-To: <VrednSJsCM_xc0PFnZ2dnUU78UPNnZ2d@brightview.co.uk>
References: <VrednSJsCM_xc0PFnZ2dnUU78UPNnZ2d@brightview.co.uk>
Message-ID: <20170401223257.GA51091@cskk.homeip.net>

On 31Mar2017 19:03, Carl Caulkett <carl.caulkett at gmail.com> wrote:
>I've just started to investigate VirtualEnvironments as a means of
>preventing my 3rd party code becoming chaotic. I've discovered that
>venv's can be managed quite effectively using Powershell. When
>Activate.ps1 is run, the PowerShell changes to indicate that the venv
>is active which is nice. However despite the official documention,
>there doesn't seem to be a corresponding Deactivate.ps1. There is a
>deactivate.bat but that doesn't appear to switch the paths back to
>their pre-env state.
>   What I would really like is a Git-Bash based alternative to
>Powershell to manage my Virtual Environments. Has anyone dicovered
>tools or techniques to achieve this?

Well, in a UNIX environment the natural things is simply to start a shell using 
the target venv. Thus:

  sh -c '. /path/to/the/venv/bin/activate; exec $SHELL'

or even simpler:

  ( . /path/to/the/venv/bin/activate; exec $SHELL )

That would get you a prompt using the virtualenv by default. To reset to the 
old settings, exit that subshell.

Maybe I misunderstand your needs.

Cheers,
Cameron Simpson <cs at zip.com.au>


From rantingrickjohnson at gmail.com  Sat Apr  1 19:11:02 2017
From: rantingrickjohnson at gmail.com (Rick Johnson)
Date: Sat, 1 Apr 2017 16:11:02 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Text-mode apps (Was :Who are the "spacists"?)
In-Reply-To: <58dfcea3$0$1596$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
References: <CAE6NSRD=LLyj2qdBR_YX_MkubocQCURVivkHg=+62qgZZ3qCQw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPTjJmo6mxAxKQgqNRLFoX6EAnRrwoK6B8f7ids_RbWQ8VoiYg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAE6NSRDsN8vTPkt4E4LU6JGMEqUME3DQ73GPZ-f_7uVCR-aGrw@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.38.1490547441.2634.python-list@python.org>
 <58d80413$0$1595$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <CAE6NSRDpdadqORG1w0529bvvw_Gkoau8xTga3LYS=LfGCmXuqg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPTjJmojKPE3d4y5YEJJuGer174Yv0ZcobJGOp8rmYgYYYefbg@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.57.1490558002.2634.python-list@python.org>
 <626fc6cf-0cf9-4efa-a3ff-f9ca2ddcb7fd@googlegroups.com>
 <CAPTjJmqDU1Wr4y0G=BmYCjEdKLC0_Ch-fNoM2cOykX1vB5B-5Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.136.1490852628.2634.python-list@python.org>
 <ee1ada22-ce6c-4e21-b5ae-cbbbaca0b8ba@googlegroups.com>
 <58dfcea3$0$1596$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
Message-ID: <ae6b73ba-f19a-44af-a56c-bfd51838cba0@googlegroups.com>

On Saturday, April 1, 2017 at 11:01:03 AM UTC-5, Steve D'Aprano wrote:
> On Sat, 1 Apr 2017 12:17 pm, Rick Johnson wrote:
> 
> > Most people just quietly change the filename and move on
> 
> There are over a billion people in China, almost a billion
> more in India, about 140 million people in Russia, nearly
> 130 million people in Japan, 250 million in Indonesia,
> about 290 million native Arabic speakers, and even 9
> million speakers of Hebrew.  If you think that all these
> people, and hundreds of millions more, will just "quietly
> change the filename"

The majority of the populations you reference are
illiterate. Have you ever seen the endless slums in India?

> To say nothing of the hundreds of millions who use Latin
> character sets that ASCII cannot handle, including around
> 65 million British.  Open your eyes, there is a whole world
> past the borders of your insular, close-minded little
> country.

Then create whatever encodings you so desire and then STFU
about it. Why are you whining to me? Contrary to your
beliefs, America does not exist to satisfy the whims of non-
americans. If you are British, then America does not exist
for you. Go request an audience from your beloved Queen
Mother; and if she's too busy, perhaps Mother Mary will
entertain you; and if she's too busy,  there is always Sir
Paul McCartney to sing you a lullaby. And since he's not
toting around that one legged girl anymore, he probably has
quite a bit of free time, even for someone as unimportant as
you.

    When i find myself in times of trouble,
    Mother ASK-EEE comes to me,
    Speaking codes of pragmatism, 
    let it be
    And when the broken hearted people,
    Living in the world agree,
    There will be an answer -> "ASS-KEE"
    For though they may be parted
    There is still a chance that they will see
    There will be an answer -> "ASK__EEE"
    ASS-KEE, ASS-KEE, Oh ASS-KEE, ASS-KEE
    There will be an answer -> "ASS-KEE"
 
    Hey, Steve!
    Don't be so sad,
    We'll take a bad encoding, 
    And make it bettuh!
    
Because we're 'mericans. 

And failure is not an option.

> 95% of the world is not American, 

And yet America continues to be emulated by 100% of the
world. A small country that has hardly existed for a few
hundred years, has not only created a social transformation
that has reverberanted around the world, we continue to define
popular culture. If you hate us so much, then why do you try
so much to emulate us?

> and there are millions of Americans who want to use non-
> ASCII characters in their file names, even non-Latin
> characters.

Great. More reason for you to create your beloved encoding
so you can become their hero. Perhaps you can convince a
remote island tribe to worship you as god.

> You talk about a fraction of that 5%, the tiny minority who
> care only about ASCII, and describe them as "most people".

Most people don't even know what Unicode and ASCII are, and
even if you had the time to educate them, they could care
less. I'm talking about technical folk, not idiots off the
street; i'm talking about people who write software and
advanced users of technical softwares; not some drooling
twit who downloaded the latest version of angry birds from
the apple store.

> That demonstrates the smallness of your world-view and the
> enormity of your ignorance. Wake up. The world is not
> Smallville USA, it never has been, and never will be.
> Either adapt, or get out of the way of those who have.

I am more than willing to provide whatever features the
_majority_ of my clients request, but what i am not willing
to do, is expend my labor capital on your pet social justice
project that caters to large concentrations of illiterates
and non-technical folk. *YOU* may ascribe to the religion of
imperialism, but i do not; if i am to ascribe to any
religion, that religion would be pragmatism. And even if we
cull the geographic Set you provided to include only the
literates of that Set, it would simply be impractical for
small or even medium sized developers to devote the time
needed to cater to all those foreign markets.

Does that mean i don't care about these people -- no. 

Does that mean i look down on these people -- no. 

It just means that my time is very important to me. 

And for you to suggest that those who do not support your
pet "inclusivity project" are intolerant (or whatever
pejorative you want to use), well, that discloses more about
your personality than does it mine. So let the bright lads
in those counties rise up and provide their own people with
great localized products. My market includes the entire
Western culture; spanning multiple continents and even some
of the more advanced areas of the undeveloped nations you
mentioned. That's a large enough market to make billions.
Why should i take anymore?

Sheesh. Out of one side your face you people whine because
major american corporations like Mcdonalds and Coca-Cola
have invaded just about every market on the face of the
earth -- and i agree, those companies should not be there!
-- then, out of the other side of your face, you whine
because America has not invaded _enough_. So which is it?
You can't have both ways.

It is every nation's own responsibility to care for their
people, to provide an education for their people, and to
provide an economic system that can support their people.
And just as America has no business telling you Brits what
to do, you have no business telling us what to do. The days
of King George are gone forever. Wake up and smell the spam.


From mikhailwas at gmail.com  Sat Apr  1 19:25:34 2017
From: mikhailwas at gmail.com (Mikhail V)
Date: Sun, 2 Apr 2017 01:25:34 +0200
Subject: Text-mode apps (Was :Who are the "spacists"?)
In-Reply-To: <CAPTjJmrgCJUpNobhqym9-opVTkLR5ykRthJqQORm7C7BcA3_NQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAE6NSRD=LLyj2qdBR_YX_MkubocQCURVivkHg=+62qgZZ3qCQw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPTjJmo6mxAxKQgqNRLFoX6EAnRrwoK6B8f7ids_RbWQ8VoiYg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAE6NSRDsN8vTPkt4E4LU6JGMEqUME3DQ73GPZ-f_7uVCR-aGrw@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.38.1490547441.2634.python-list@python.org>
 <58d80413$0$1595$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <CAE6NSRDpdadqORG1w0529bvvw_Gkoau8xTga3LYS=LfGCmXuqg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPTjJmojKPE3d4y5YEJJuGer174Yv0ZcobJGOp8rmYgYYYefbg@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.57.1490558002.2634.python-list@python.org>
 <626fc6cf-0cf9-4efa-a3ff-f9ca2ddcb7fd@googlegroups.com>
 <CAPTjJmqDU1Wr4y0G=BmYCjEdKLC0_Ch-fNoM2cOykX1vB5B-5Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.136.1490852628.2634.python-list@python.org>
 <ee1ada22-ce6c-4e21-b5ae-cbbbaca0b8ba@googlegroups.com>
 <58dfcea3$0$1596$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <CAE6NSRA5JFOMovMDmCfPpkX9Sd8kBSSJnxmJ6YC3BVfkAi1xMA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPTjJmrgCJUpNobhqym9-opVTkLR5ykRthJqQORm7C7BcA3_NQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAE6NSRCytnL8v7h9QRb979oGqm23henxCckRia+kpqu0s+GFBg@mail.gmail.com>

On 2 April 2017 at 00:22, Chris Angelico <rosuav at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Sun, Apr 2, 2017 at 8:16 AM, Mikhail V <mikhailwas at gmail.com> wrote:
>> For multiple-alphabet rendering I will use some
>> custom text format, e.g. with tags
>> <s="Voynich"> ... </s>, and for latin
>> <s="Latin">...</s> and etc.
>>
>> Simple and effective.
>
> For multi-alphabet rendering, I would rather use an even simpler
> format: Remove the tags and use a consistent encoding.

No, flat encoding would not be simpler, it would be simpler only and only
if you take a text with several alphabets, and mix the data randomly.
In real situation, data chunks that use different glyph sets for
representation are not mixed in a random manner.
Also for different processing purposes tagged structure will be way
more effective, e.g. if I want to extract all chunks in alphabet A
in a single list with strings, or use advanced search, etc.

>
> Have you ever actually *used* a system of tagged encodings? It is an
> abomination.

Not with such encodings (exept my own experiments), but in some sense,
I use it every day, e.g. in rich text format (Word, InDesign), you
have bold text or
italics text - in internal representation it is like tagged text, and
adresses different glyph sets. Yes those are [probably] unicode values,
but the application deals with those tags at rendering and copy-pasting.
IOW such applications technically could cope with encodings
in similar manner without problems.


From eryksun at gmail.com  Sat Apr  1 19:45:59 2017
From: eryksun at gmail.com (eryk sun)
Date: Sat, 1 Apr 2017 23:45:59 +0000
Subject: VirtualEnvs (venv) and Powershell
In-Reply-To: <VrednSJsCM_xc0PFnZ2dnUU78UPNnZ2d@brightview.co.uk>
References: <VrednSJsCM_xc0PFnZ2dnUU78UPNnZ2d@brightview.co.uk>
Message-ID: <CACL+1av7afth2W4dcH1byNRe2wF8Tdc1a2g0cnBTeTq0i-u5pg@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Apr 1, 2017 at 12:03 AM, Carl Caulkett <carl.caulkett at gmail.com> wrote:
> I've just started to investigate VirtualEnvironments as a means of
> preventing my 3rd party code becoming chaotic. I've discovered that
> venv's can be managed quite effectively using Powershell. When
> Activate.ps1 is run, the PowerShell changes to indicate that the venv
> is active which is nice. However despite the official documention,
> there doesn't seem to be a corresponding Deactivate.ps1. There is a
> deactivate.bat but that doesn't appear to switch the paths back to
> their pre-env state.

Please read the contents of Activate.ps1. The way the `deactivate`
function works should be obvious.


From rosuav at gmail.com  Sat Apr  1 20:01:25 2017
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Sun, 2 Apr 2017 10:01:25 +1000
Subject: Text-mode apps (Was :Who are the "spacists"?)
In-Reply-To: <CAE6NSRCytnL8v7h9QRb979oGqm23henxCckRia+kpqu0s+GFBg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAE6NSRD=LLyj2qdBR_YX_MkubocQCURVivkHg=+62qgZZ3qCQw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPTjJmo6mxAxKQgqNRLFoX6EAnRrwoK6B8f7ids_RbWQ8VoiYg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAE6NSRDsN8vTPkt4E4LU6JGMEqUME3DQ73GPZ-f_7uVCR-aGrw@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.38.1490547441.2634.python-list@python.org>
 <58d80413$0$1595$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <CAE6NSRDpdadqORG1w0529bvvw_Gkoau8xTga3LYS=LfGCmXuqg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPTjJmojKPE3d4y5YEJJuGer174Yv0ZcobJGOp8rmYgYYYefbg@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.57.1490558002.2634.python-list@python.org>
 <626fc6cf-0cf9-4efa-a3ff-f9ca2ddcb7fd@googlegroups.com>
 <CAPTjJmqDU1Wr4y0G=BmYCjEdKLC0_Ch-fNoM2cOykX1vB5B-5Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.136.1490852628.2634.python-list@python.org>
 <ee1ada22-ce6c-4e21-b5ae-cbbbaca0b8ba@googlegroups.com>
 <58dfcea3$0$1596$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <CAE6NSRA5JFOMovMDmCfPpkX9Sd8kBSSJnxmJ6YC3BVfkAi1xMA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPTjJmrgCJUpNobhqym9-opVTkLR5ykRthJqQORm7C7BcA3_NQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAE6NSRCytnL8v7h9QRb979oGqm23henxCckRia+kpqu0s+GFBg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmpfaFCM1Dh4BMkUW_nAdkvZsri=sB4=oVMdZXGrFYsKrg@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Apr 2, 2017 at 9:25 AM, Mikhail V <mikhailwas at gmail.com> wrote:
> On 2 April 2017 at 00:22, Chris Angelico <rosuav at gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Sun, Apr 2, 2017 at 8:16 AM, Mikhail V <mikhailwas at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> For multiple-alphabet rendering I will use some
>>> custom text format, e.g. with tags
>>> <s="Voynich"> ... </s>, and for latin
>>> <s="Latin">...</s> and etc.
>>>
>>> Simple and effective.
>>
>> For multi-alphabet rendering, I would rather use an even simpler
>> format: Remove the tags and use a consistent encoding.
>
> No, flat encoding would not be simpler, it would be simpler only and only
> if you take a text with several alphabets, and mix the data randomly.
> In real situation, data chunks that use different glyph sets for
> representation are not mixed in a random manner.
> Also for different processing purposes tagged structure will be way
> more effective, e.g. if I want to extract all chunks in alphabet A
> in a single list with strings, or use advanced search, etc.

https://github.com/Rosuav/LetItTrans/blob/master/25%20languages.srt

Not exactly random, but that's a single file, a single document, using
characters from several different scripts. And this is far from the
only case of this sort of thing happening.

ChrisA


From No_spamming at noWhere_7073.org  Sat Apr  1 20:08:05 2017
From: No_spamming at noWhere_7073.org (Robert L.)
Date: Sun, 2 Apr 2017 00:08:05 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: Temporary variables in list comprehensions
References: <58730938$0$1597$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
Message-ID: <obpfd2$459$1@gioia.aioe.org>

On 1/8/2017, Steven D'Aprano wrote:

> Suppose you have an expensive calculation that gets used two or
> more times in a loop. The obvious way to avoid calculating it
> twice in an ordinary loop is with a temporary variable:
> 
> result = []
> for x in data:
>     tmp = expensive_calculation(x)
>     result.append((tmp, tmp+1))
> 
> 
> But what if you are using a list comprehension? Alas, list comps
> don't let you have temporary variables, so you have to write
> this:
> 
> [(expensive_calculation(x), expensive_calculation(x) + 1) for x in data]
> 
> Or do you? ... no, you don't!
> 
> [(tmp, tmp + 1) for x in data for tmp in [expensive_calculation(x)]]

[2,3,5].map{|n| tmp = Math.sqrt n; [tmp, tmp+1]}

 ===> 
[[1.4142135623730951, 2.414213562373095],
 [1.7320508075688772, 2.732050807568877],
 [2.23606797749979, 3.23606797749979]]


-- 
I don't believe in western morality, i.e. don't kill civilians or children....
The only way to fight a moral war is the Jewish way: Destroy their holy sites.
Kill men, women, and children (and cattle). --- Rabbi Manis Friedman
web.archive.org/web/20090605154706/http://www.momentmag.com/Exclusive/2009/2009-06/200906-Ask_Rabbis.html
archive.org/download/DavidDukeVideo/TheZionistMatrixOfPowerddhd.ogv


From matt.mailinglists at gmail.com  Sat Apr  1 20:39:53 2017
From: matt.mailinglists at gmail.com (Matt)
Date: Sat, 1 Apr 2017 19:39:53 -0500
Subject: net-snmp-python
Message-ID: <CAAOM8FUHEzFpFwJ0YV9PER_E6fWfKRDBVcaAp9mPR8GFe1fLsw@mail.gmail.com>

Does anyone have an example of using netsnmp library to do a snmpset
on a snmp v2 device?  I have gotten snmpget to work fine with python I
just cannot get snmpset to work.  I know I have the snmp device
configured correctly with read/write access since I can use snmpset on
the linux(centos7) command line to successfully make changes to the
device.

This is on python 2.7.5 stock version included with Centos 7.

The below works fine to do a snmpwalk but I need to do a snmpset on
different variable.

import netsnmp

oid = netsnmp.Varbind('sysDescr')

result = netsnmp.snmpwalk(oid,
  Version = 2,
  DestHost="localhost",
  Community="public")

print result


From mikhailwas at gmail.com  Sat Apr  1 21:33:26 2017
From: mikhailwas at gmail.com (Mikhail V)
Date: Sun, 2 Apr 2017 03:33:26 +0200
Subject: Text-mode apps (Was :Who are the "spacists"?)
In-Reply-To: <CAPTjJmpfaFCM1Dh4BMkUW_nAdkvZsri=sB4=oVMdZXGrFYsKrg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAE6NSRD=LLyj2qdBR_YX_MkubocQCURVivkHg=+62qgZZ3qCQw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPTjJmo6mxAxKQgqNRLFoX6EAnRrwoK6B8f7ids_RbWQ8VoiYg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAE6NSRDsN8vTPkt4E4LU6JGMEqUME3DQ73GPZ-f_7uVCR-aGrw@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.38.1490547441.2634.python-list@python.org>
 <58d80413$0$1595$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <CAE6NSRDpdadqORG1w0529bvvw_Gkoau8xTga3LYS=LfGCmXuqg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPTjJmojKPE3d4y5YEJJuGer174Yv0ZcobJGOp8rmYgYYYefbg@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.57.1490558002.2634.python-list@python.org>
 <626fc6cf-0cf9-4efa-a3ff-f9ca2ddcb7fd@googlegroups.com>
 <CAPTjJmqDU1Wr4y0G=BmYCjEdKLC0_Ch-fNoM2cOykX1vB5B-5Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.136.1490852628.2634.python-list@python.org>
 <ee1ada22-ce6c-4e21-b5ae-cbbbaca0b8ba@googlegroups.com>
 <58dfcea3$0$1596$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <CAE6NSRA5JFOMovMDmCfPpkX9Sd8kBSSJnxmJ6YC3BVfkAi1xMA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPTjJmrgCJUpNobhqym9-opVTkLR5ykRthJqQORm7C7BcA3_NQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAE6NSRCytnL8v7h9QRb979oGqm23henxCckRia+kpqu0s+GFBg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPTjJmpfaFCM1Dh4BMkUW_nAdkvZsri=sB4=oVMdZXGrFYsKrg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAE6NSRAN9UAjVnXF6XMDYpOqPK+134acYc7MSB2eK=wODo143A@mail.gmail.com>

On 2 April 2017 at 02:01, Chris Angelico <rosuav at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Sun, Apr 2, 2017 at 9:25 AM, Mikhail V <mikhailwas at gmail.com> wrote:
>> On 2 April 2017 at 00:22, Chris Angelico <rosuav at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> On Sun, Apr 2, 2017 at 8:16 AM, Mikhail V <mikhailwas at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> For multiple-alphabet rendering I will use some
>>>> custom text format, e.g. with tags
>>>> <s="Voynich"> ... </s>, and for latin
>>>> <s="Latin">...</s> and etc.
>>>>
>>>> Simple and effective.
>>>
>>> For multi-alphabet rendering, I would rather use an even simpler
>>> format: Remove the tags and use a consistent encoding.
>>
>> No, flat encoding would not be simpler, it would be simpler only and only
>> if you take a text with several alphabets, and mix the data randomly.
>> In real situation, data chunks that use different glyph sets for
>> representation are not mixed in a random manner.
>> Also for different processing purposes tagged structure will be way
>> more effective, e.g. if I want to extract all chunks in alphabet A
>> in a single list with strings, or use advanced search, etc.
>
> https://github.com/Rosuav/LetItTrans/blob/master/25%20languages.srt
>
> Not exactly random, but that's a single file, a single document, using
> characters from several different scripts. And this is far from the
> only case of this sort of thing happening.
>

So you propose that I automatically convert this content
to tagged format? Heh, no thanks, and this does not
refer to the above discussed problem.
If you will make a publishing layout of multi-lingual
document, you will have to do that manually anyway.
(however e.g. in Adobe InDesign there is automatical
assistance for this task, which tries to guess the language of chunks)

So this speaks merely against spawning of such content
than towards unicode.


From rantingrickjohnson at gmail.com  Sat Apr  1 21:38:30 2017
From: rantingrickjohnson at gmail.com (Rick Johnson)
Date: Sat, 1 Apr 2017 18:38:30 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Text-mode apps (Was :Who are the "spacists"?)
In-Reply-To: <mailman.21.1491077272.2961.python-list@python.org>
References: <CAE6NSRD=LLyj2qdBR_YX_MkubocQCURVivkHg=+62qgZZ3qCQw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPTjJmo6mxAxKQgqNRLFoX6EAnRrwoK6B8f7ids_RbWQ8VoiYg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAE6NSRDsN8vTPkt4E4LU6JGMEqUME3DQ73GPZ-f_7uVCR-aGrw@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.38.1490547441.2634.python-list@python.org>
 <58d80413$0$1595$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <CAE6NSRDpdadqORG1w0529bvvw_Gkoau8xTga3LYS=LfGCmXuqg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPTjJmojKPE3d4y5YEJJuGer174Yv0ZcobJGOp8rmYgYYYefbg@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.57.1490558002.2634.python-list@python.org>
 <626fc6cf-0cf9-4efa-a3ff-f9ca2ddcb7fd@googlegroups.com>
 <58dd12d2$0$1611$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <04f771fe-1c40-48e9-85d7-3b743108c5eb@googlegroups.com>
 <CAE6NSRD8T-ou4p_ChUe6PJvaT4MWYvJL-tHz9knA-RFhNZPUwg@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.21.1491077272.2961.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <d4b156c0-ce23-44c8-8ec7-12a71aa934e1@googlegroups.com>

On Saturday, April 1, 2017 at 3:08:20 PM UTC-5, Mikhail V wrote:
> On 1 April 2017 at 06:38, Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohnson at gmail.com> wrote:
> > On Thursday, March 30, 2017 at 9:14:54 AM UTC-5, Steve D'Aprano wrote:
>
> > > - and making band names look ???? and annoy old fuddy-
> > > duddies.
> >
> > So now we've even included graffiti artists in our little
> > "inclusivity project". My, my... we are so _not_ mean!
>
> Lol :)  First we'll wait for Unicode version with table-
> drawing character for all possible corner styles and line
> weights, and monospaced legible Arabic for Chris' MUDs.

Urm, don't mention MUDs around Chris. That's like a dog
whistle to him. He could go on and on for hours yelping
about them. To be honest, between his MUD ramblings and his
incessant plugging of the Pike language, i don't know which
is worse @_ at .

But we tolerate Chris.

In fact, noticing that Pike is statically typed, i'm
beginning to wonder if Chris may have poured pike oil in
GvR's ear thereby convincing him to introduce type-hints.

Whaddaya got next Chris, braces?

But the more i think about it, the more i realize the _true_
culprit of this type-hints conundrum may just be the Go
language. Sure, Ruby was the "classic foe", however, Ruby
was never a _real_ threat to Python. And not because Ruby
was an inferior language, but because Ruby did not
outshine Python. For both of their natural lives, Ruby and
Python have existed in their own little nitches, and so,
neither became an existential threat to the other. But then,
Google's pet language named "Go" arrived on the scene, and
now we had a statically typed compiled language with many of
the sugary syntactical features and intuitive structural
architecture of Python scripts. Go is basically an evolution
of Python, and when Guido first noticed Go he became
intimidated and then frightened, and so, hastily decided he
had to compete with it. And since he knew that true static
typing would be impossible in Python, he made the compromise
of implementing "type-hints". And so, now the entire
community has been saddled with this type-hints mess, just
because a few of his peers at Google-plex decided to give
Go, well, a go.

Our emotions can be powerful opponents. Sometimes, so
powerful, that even the wise cannot control them. Of course,
this is the same man who proudly claimed (when asked in an
interview if he would take a flight in a aeroplane that was
controlled by a dynamic language such as Python), "Yes!". Of
course, with the caveat that he would be allowed to "write
all the code himself".

But what kind person would make such a foolish claim?

And whether this loose thinking was a matter of overwhelming
emotions or just pure stupidity, has been hotly debated by
many people in community ever since. But, as for me, i don't
think the man is stupid -- no, the Python language stands as
a testament to his intellectual prowess -- however, my
observations have led me to believe that he's unable to
control his emotions. In fact, he is a man ruled by
emotions. His famously foolish and braggadocious claim
exposes a deeply inflated sense of his own abilities brought
to the surface by powerful feelings of superiority over
others. He believes himself infallible. Could this be a
result of malignant narcissism? Megalomania? Possibly all
the above sprinkled lightly with sadistic tendencious? Who
knows...

I'm not sure if our dear leader has conceded to the foolish
nature of his famous "Python Drone Idea", but what i am sure
of, is that the existence of type-hints is evidence of his
emotions (once again!) overriding his rational mind and
causing him to make a poor decision.

Last time it was pride.

This time it is jealously.

What will it be next time?

He is a man who is unable to be humble in the reality of his
own accomplishments, and unable to concede that his
intellectual powers are merely that of a mortal. Powers that
are subject to fallibility and stubborn headedness. Powers
that cannot reach full potential unless they are
supplemented by a strong and open community.

This realization is for me, and many in this fine community,
both sad and terrifying. It is as though we are witnessing a
beloved relative slowly drift away into the clutches of
dementia. Racked with horrific pain and dehumanized by the
embarrassing bouts of incontinence. And we are powerless to
do anything to stop it. And although we'd rather hold our
noses and look away, we cannot. It is a strange irony that
we are forced by a "sense of duty" to become unwilling
spectators to this downward spiral.


From steve+python at pearwood.info  Sat Apr  1 21:53:11 2017
From: steve+python at pearwood.info (Steve D'Aprano)
Date: Sun, 02 Apr 2017 11:53:11 +1000
Subject: Temporary variables in list comprehensions
References: <58730938$0$1597$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <obpfd2$459$1@gioia.aioe.org>
Message-ID: <58e05988$0$1601$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>

Robert, I've asked you once to stop posting anti-Semitic signatures in your
posts. You've now posted four times, and each one has included racist
material in the signature.

You are welcome to participate here if you discuss Python, or even to
discuss general programming techniques, but if you continue to post
anti-Semitic or other racist links and so-called "quotes" (usually invented
or made up), you will be reported for a CoC violation and banned from the
mailing list and kill-filed on the newsgroup.




On Sun, 2 Apr 2017 10:08 am, Robert L. wrote:

> I don't believe in western morality[...]
> archive.org/download/DavidDukeVideo/[...]


-- 
Steve
?Cheer up,? they said, ?things could be worse.? So I cheered up, and sure
enough, things got worse.



From rosuav at gmail.com  Sat Apr  1 22:08:03 2017
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Sun, 2 Apr 2017 12:08:03 +1000
Subject: Temporary variables in list comprehensions
In-Reply-To: <58e05988$0$1601$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
References: <58730938$0$1597$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <obpfd2$459$1@gioia.aioe.org>
 <58e05988$0$1601$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmrs2cp7iJ7+zRSoJJxD5t37eBSzLiQz9UWNBKz==neE=g@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Apr 2, 2017 at 11:53 AM, Steve D'Aprano
<steve+python at pearwood.info> wrote:
> Robert, I've asked you once to stop posting anti-Semitic signatures in your
> posts. You've now posted four times, and each one has included racist
> material in the signature.
>
> You are welcome to participate here if you discuss Python, or even to
> discuss general programming techniques, but if you continue to post
> anti-Semitic or other racist links and so-called "quotes" (usually invented
> or made up), you will be reported for a CoC violation and banned from the
> mailing list and kill-filed on the newsgroup.

If you were responding to something in this thread, I didn't even see
it, which quite possibly means he's already banned from the mailing
list.

ChrisA


From steve+python at pearwood.info  Sat Apr  1 22:18:03 2017
From: steve+python at pearwood.info (Steve D'Aprano)
Date: Sun, 02 Apr 2017 12:18:03 +1000
Subject: Text-mode apps (Was :Who are the "spacists"?)
References: <CAE6NSRD=LLyj2qdBR_YX_MkubocQCURVivkHg=+62qgZZ3qCQw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPTjJmo6mxAxKQgqNRLFoX6EAnRrwoK6B8f7ids_RbWQ8VoiYg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAE6NSRDsN8vTPkt4E4LU6JGMEqUME3DQ73GPZ-f_7uVCR-aGrw@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.38.1490547441.2634.python-list@python.org>
 <58d80413$0$1595$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <CAE6NSRDpdadqORG1w0529bvvw_Gkoau8xTga3LYS=LfGCmXuqg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPTjJmojKPE3d4y5YEJJuGer174Yv0ZcobJGOp8rmYgYYYefbg@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.57.1490558002.2634.python-list@python.org>
 <626fc6cf-0cf9-4efa-a3ff-f9ca2ddcb7fd@googlegroups.com>
 <CAPTjJmqDU1Wr4y0G=BmYCjEdKLC0_Ch-fNoM2cOykX1vB5B-5Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.136.1490852628.2634.python-list@python.org>
 <ee1ada22-ce6c-4e21-b5ae-cbbbaca0b8ba@googlegroups.com>
 <58dfcea3$0$1596$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <ae6b73ba-f19a-44af-a56c-bfd51838cba0@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <58e05f5d$0$1590$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>

On Sun, 2 Apr 2017 09:11 am, Rick Johnson wrote:

> The majority of the populations you reference are
> illiterate.

/face-palm

The majority of Chinese and Japanese are illiterate. Really?

Even India has a literacy rate of 74%, which is not far off the functional
literacy rate in the US of 86%.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/09/06/illiteracy-rate_n_3880355.html

(I know I'm comparing apples with oranges. But when 14% of the adult
population can *effectively* not read, despite being educated in the
wealthiest economy in the world, you don't get to point the finger at
other, poorer, countries and nations for their literacy problems.)


You're entitled to your own opinions, you're not entitled to your own facts.
Until you learn some actual facts, instead of the prejudices and self-
serving ignorance that you are currently operating on, your opinions are
based on fantasy, and you alternate between laughably obnoxious and just
obnoxious.


> Then create whatever encodings you so desire and then STFU about it.

The necessary encoding exists. Its called Unicode.


> Go request an audience from your beloved Queen Mother

My "beloved" Queen Mother? Oh dear, you really don't know me very well.

Besides, the old girl died in 2002.


> And yet America continues to be emulated by 100% of the world.

Well, at least 100% of the world that you know of. Which isn't saying much.



-- 
Steve
?Cheer up,? they said, ?things could be worse.? So I cheered up, and sure
enough, things got worse.



From python at mrabarnett.plus.com  Sat Apr  1 22:32:01 2017
From: python at mrabarnett.plus.com (MRAB)
Date: Sun, 2 Apr 2017 03:32:01 +0100
Subject: Text-mode apps (Was :Who are the "spacists"?)
In-Reply-To: <d4b156c0-ce23-44c8-8ec7-12a71aa934e1@googlegroups.com>
References: <CAE6NSRD=LLyj2qdBR_YX_MkubocQCURVivkHg=+62qgZZ3qCQw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPTjJmo6mxAxKQgqNRLFoX6EAnRrwoK6B8f7ids_RbWQ8VoiYg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAE6NSRDsN8vTPkt4E4LU6JGMEqUME3DQ73GPZ-f_7uVCR-aGrw@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.38.1490547441.2634.python-list@python.org>
 <58d80413$0$1595$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <CAE6NSRDpdadqORG1w0529bvvw_Gkoau8xTga3LYS=LfGCmXuqg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPTjJmojKPE3d4y5YEJJuGer174Yv0ZcobJGOp8rmYgYYYefbg@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.57.1490558002.2634.python-list@python.org>
 <626fc6cf-0cf9-4efa-a3ff-f9ca2ddcb7fd@googlegroups.com>
 <58dd12d2$0$1611$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <04f771fe-1c40-48e9-85d7-3b743108c5eb@googlegroups.com>
 <CAE6NSRD8T-ou4p_ChUe6PJvaT4MWYvJL-tHz9knA-RFhNZPUwg@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.21.1491077272.2961.python-list@python.org>
 <d4b156c0-ce23-44c8-8ec7-12a71aa934e1@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <b89b9046-122b-15d9-4605-a4135fdec81c@mrabarnett.plus.com>

On 2017-04-02 02:38, Rick Johnson wrote:
> On Saturday, April 1, 2017 at 3:08:20 PM UTC-5, Mikhail V wrote:
>> On 1 April 2017 at 06:38, Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohnson at gmail.com> wrote:
>> > On Thursday, March 30, 2017 at 9:14:54 AM UTC-5, Steve D'Aprano wrote:
>>
>> > > - and making band names look ???? and annoy old fuddy-
>> > > duddies.
>> >
>> > So now we've even included graffiti artists in our little
>> > "inclusivity project". My, my... we are so _not_ mean!
>>
>> Lol :)  First we'll wait for Unicode version with table-
>> drawing character for all possible corner styles and line
>> weights, and monospaced legible Arabic for Chris' MUDs.
>
> Urm, don't mention MUDs around Chris. That's like a dog
> whistle to him. He could go on and on for hours yelping
> about them. To be honest, between his MUD ramblings and his
> incessant plugging of the Pike language, i don't know which
> is worse @_ at .
>
> But we tolerate Chris.
>
[snip]

Sometimes he mentions MUDs, sometimes he mentions Pike, but at least he 
doesn't rant.



From rantingrickjohnson at gmail.com  Sat Apr  1 22:42:12 2017
From: rantingrickjohnson at gmail.com (Rick Johnson)
Date: Sat, 1 Apr 2017 19:42:12 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Text-mode apps (Was :Who are the "spacists"?)
In-Reply-To: <58e05f5d$0$1590$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
References: <CAE6NSRD=LLyj2qdBR_YX_MkubocQCURVivkHg=+62qgZZ3qCQw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPTjJmo6mxAxKQgqNRLFoX6EAnRrwoK6B8f7ids_RbWQ8VoiYg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAE6NSRDsN8vTPkt4E4LU6JGMEqUME3DQ73GPZ-f_7uVCR-aGrw@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.38.1490547441.2634.python-list@python.org>
 <58d80413$0$1595$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <CAE6NSRDpdadqORG1w0529bvvw_Gkoau8xTga3LYS=LfGCmXuqg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPTjJmojKPE3d4y5YEJJuGer174Yv0ZcobJGOp8rmYgYYYefbg@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.57.1490558002.2634.python-list@python.org>
 <626fc6cf-0cf9-4efa-a3ff-f9ca2ddcb7fd@googlegroups.com>
 <CAPTjJmqDU1Wr4y0G=BmYCjEdKLC0_Ch-fNoM2cOykX1vB5B-5Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.136.1490852628.2634.python-list@python.org>
 <ee1ada22-ce6c-4e21-b5ae-cbbbaca0b8ba@googlegroups.com>
 <58dfcea3$0$1596$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <ae6b73ba-f19a-44af-a56c-bfd51838cba0@googlegroups.com>
 <58e05f5d$0$1590$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
Message-ID: <c621abfd-e370-4626-bc98-776539ef6f06@googlegroups.com>

On Saturday, April 1, 2017 at 9:18:14 PM UTC-5, Steve D'Aprano wrote:
[...]
> Even India has a literacy rate of 74%, which is not far off
> the functional literacy rate in the US of 86%.
>
> http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/09/06/illiteracy-rate_n_3880355.html

And your source is the HuffPo? Seriously? With that in mind,
i think i'll wander on over to the TIOBE index and gawk at
the python position for a while. Gawd knows that google
searches and spam hits are the only true test for judging
the worthiness of programming language.

> The necessary encoding exists. Its called Unicode.

Great. Now let the evolutionary forces of the free market
decide if it will live or die. Why do you feel compelled to
intervene in this natural process?


From torriem at gmail.com  Sat Apr  1 22:44:19 2017
From: torriem at gmail.com (Michael Torrie)
Date: Sat, 1 Apr 2017 20:44:19 -0600
Subject: Text-mode apps (Was :Who are the "spacists"?)
In-Reply-To: <58e05f5d$0$1590$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
References: <CAE6NSRD=LLyj2qdBR_YX_MkubocQCURVivkHg=+62qgZZ3qCQw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPTjJmo6mxAxKQgqNRLFoX6EAnRrwoK6B8f7ids_RbWQ8VoiYg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAE6NSRDsN8vTPkt4E4LU6JGMEqUME3DQ73GPZ-f_7uVCR-aGrw@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.38.1490547441.2634.python-list@python.org>
 <58d80413$0$1595$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <CAE6NSRDpdadqORG1w0529bvvw_Gkoau8xTga3LYS=LfGCmXuqg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPTjJmojKPE3d4y5YEJJuGer174Yv0ZcobJGOp8rmYgYYYefbg@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.57.1490558002.2634.python-list@python.org>
 <626fc6cf-0cf9-4efa-a3ff-f9ca2ddcb7fd@googlegroups.com>
 <CAPTjJmqDU1Wr4y0G=BmYCjEdKLC0_Ch-fNoM2cOykX1vB5B-5Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.136.1490852628.2634.python-list@python.org>
 <ee1ada22-ce6c-4e21-b5ae-cbbbaca0b8ba@googlegroups.com>
 <58dfcea3$0$1596$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <ae6b73ba-f19a-44af-a56c-bfd51838cba0@googlegroups.com>
 <58e05f5d$0$1590$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
Message-ID: <7d73a2c0-880d-77bb-b97b-c1c0d0281b84@gmail.com>

On 04/01/2017 08:18 PM, Steve D'Aprano wrote:
>> And yet America continues to be emulated by 100% of the world.
> 
> Well, at least 100% of the world that you know of. Which isn't saying much.

I plonked RR a long time ago, but this little doozie requires a reply!
Having just traveled half way across the globe to two different
continents last month, I can say very clearly that those places do not
wish to or strive to emulate the US.  Especially lately with the
current, unprecedented level of belligerence emanating from its highest
office.  And certainly not in language... The countries I visited are
extremely proud of their languages and cultures.  Anyway, just wow.


From steve+python at pearwood.info  Sun Apr  2 00:29:39 2017
From: steve+python at pearwood.info (Steve D'Aprano)
Date: Sun, 02 Apr 2017 14:29:39 +1000
Subject: Text-mode apps (Was :Who are the "spacists"?)
References: <CAE6NSRD=LLyj2qdBR_YX_MkubocQCURVivkHg=+62qgZZ3qCQw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPTjJmo6mxAxKQgqNRLFoX6EAnRrwoK6B8f7ids_RbWQ8VoiYg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAE6NSRDsN8vTPkt4E4LU6JGMEqUME3DQ73GPZ-f_7uVCR-aGrw@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.38.1490547441.2634.python-list@python.org>
 <58d80413$0$1595$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <CAE6NSRDpdadqORG1w0529bvvw_Gkoau8xTga3LYS=LfGCmXuqg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPTjJmojKPE3d4y5YEJJuGer174Yv0ZcobJGOp8rmYgYYYefbg@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.57.1490558002.2634.python-list@python.org>
 <626fc6cf-0cf9-4efa-a3ff-f9ca2ddcb7fd@googlegroups.com>
 <CAPTjJmqDU1Wr4y0G=BmYCjEdKLC0_Ch-fNoM2cOykX1vB5B-5Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.136.1490852628.2634.python-list@python.org>
 <ee1ada22-ce6c-4e21-b5ae-cbbbaca0b8ba@googlegroups.com>
 <58dfcea3$0$1596$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <ae6b73ba-f19a-44af-a56c-bfd51838cba0@googlegroups.com>
 <58e05f5d$0$1590$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <c621abfd-e370-4626-bc98-776539ef6f06@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <58e07e35$0$1598$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>

On Sun, 2 Apr 2017 12:42 pm, Rick Johnson wrote:

> On Saturday, April 1, 2017 at 9:18:14 PM UTC-5, Steve D'Aprano wrote:
> [...]
>> Even India has a literacy rate of 74%, which is not far off
>> the functional literacy rate in the US of 86%.
>>
>> http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/09/06/illiteracy-rate_n_3880355.html
> 
> And your source is the HuffPo? Seriously? 

No. My sources are the National Assessment of Adult Literacy, and the U.S.
Department of Education. HuffPo is just the middle man reporting the facts.

Hint: in the HuffPo article, you will see underlined phrases. These are
called "hyperlinks", or just "links", and clicking on some of them will
take you to the original source of the data.



>> The necessary encoding exists. Its called Unicode.
> 
> Great. Now let the evolutionary forces of the free market
> decide if it will live or die. Why do you feel compelled to
> intervene in this natural process?

I'm just as much a part of the "evolutionary forces of the free market" as
you. If you're allowed to complain about people using Unicode and loudly
rant about how its not necessary, I'm allowed to disagree.




-- 
Steve
?Cheer up,? they said, ?things could be worse.? So I cheered up, and sure
enough, things got worse.



From tjreedy at udel.edu  Sun Apr  2 02:41:53 2017
From: tjreedy at udel.edu (Terry Reedy)
Date: Sun, 2 Apr 2017 02:41:53 -0400
Subject: Text-mode apps (Was :Who are the "spacists"?)
In-Reply-To: <58dfcea3$0$1596$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
References: <CAE6NSRD=LLyj2qdBR_YX_MkubocQCURVivkHg=+62qgZZ3qCQw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPTjJmo6mxAxKQgqNRLFoX6EAnRrwoK6B8f7ids_RbWQ8VoiYg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAE6NSRDsN8vTPkt4E4LU6JGMEqUME3DQ73GPZ-f_7uVCR-aGrw@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.38.1490547441.2634.python-list@python.org>
 <58d80413$0$1595$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <CAE6NSRDpdadqORG1w0529bvvw_Gkoau8xTga3LYS=LfGCmXuqg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPTjJmojKPE3d4y5YEJJuGer174Yv0ZcobJGOp8rmYgYYYefbg@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.57.1490558002.2634.python-list@python.org>
 <626fc6cf-0cf9-4efa-a3ff-f9ca2ddcb7fd@googlegroups.com>
 <CAPTjJmqDU1Wr4y0G=BmYCjEdKLC0_Ch-fNoM2cOykX1vB5B-5Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.136.1490852628.2634.python-list@python.org>
 <ee1ada22-ce6c-4e21-b5ae-cbbbaca0b8ba@googlegroups.com>
 <58dfcea3$0$1596$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
Message-ID: <obq6fc$219$1@blaine.gmane.org>

On 4/1/2017 12:00 PM, Steve D'Aprano wrote:

> example of the Ugly American.

As an American I resent your promotion and perpetuation of an ugly 
ethno-centric stereotype.

-- 
Terry Jan Reedy



From rosuav at gmail.com  Sun Apr  2 03:14:20 2017
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Sun, 2 Apr 2017 17:14:20 +1000
Subject: Text-mode apps (Was :Who are the "spacists"?)
In-Reply-To: <obq6fc$219$1@blaine.gmane.org>
References: <CAE6NSRD=LLyj2qdBR_YX_MkubocQCURVivkHg=+62qgZZ3qCQw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPTjJmo6mxAxKQgqNRLFoX6EAnRrwoK6B8f7ids_RbWQ8VoiYg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAE6NSRDsN8vTPkt4E4LU6JGMEqUME3DQ73GPZ-f_7uVCR-aGrw@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.38.1490547441.2634.python-list@python.org>
 <58d80413$0$1595$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <CAE6NSRDpdadqORG1w0529bvvw_Gkoau8xTga3LYS=LfGCmXuqg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPTjJmojKPE3d4y5YEJJuGer174Yv0ZcobJGOp8rmYgYYYefbg@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.57.1490558002.2634.python-list@python.org>
 <626fc6cf-0cf9-4efa-a3ff-f9ca2ddcb7fd@googlegroups.com>
 <CAPTjJmqDU1Wr4y0G=BmYCjEdKLC0_Ch-fNoM2cOykX1vB5B-5Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.136.1490852628.2634.python-list@python.org>
 <ee1ada22-ce6c-4e21-b5ae-cbbbaca0b8ba@googlegroups.com>
 <58dfcea3$0$1596$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <obq6fc$219$1@blaine.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmo547P+55V=7oQNXDg_TQ_NNi5dRoHCMv2kN=02-X_pVA@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Apr 2, 2017 at 4:41 PM, Terry Reedy <tjreedy at udel.edu> wrote:
> On 4/1/2017 12:00 PM, Steve D'Aprano wrote:
>
>> example of the Ugly American.
>
>
> As an American I resent your promotion and perpetuation of an ugly
> ethno-centric stereotype.

There are ugly Americans and there are non-ugly Americans. Rick is a
prime example of the former.

ChrisA


From auriocus at gmx.de  Sun Apr  2 04:03:32 2017
From: auriocus at gmx.de (Christian Gollwitzer)
Date: Sun, 2 Apr 2017 10:03:32 +0200
Subject: Text-mode apps (Was :Who are the "spacists"?)
In-Reply-To: <58dfe5b3$0$1616$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
References: <CAE6NSRD=LLyj2qdBR_YX_MkubocQCURVivkHg=+62qgZZ3qCQw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAE6NSRDsN8vTPkt4E4LU6JGMEqUME3DQ73GPZ-f_7uVCR-aGrw@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.38.1490547441.2634.python-list@python.org>
 <58d80413$0$1595$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <CAE6NSRDpdadqORG1w0529bvvw_Gkoau8xTga3LYS=LfGCmXuqg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPTjJmojKPE3d4y5YEJJuGer174Yv0ZcobJGOp8rmYgYYYefbg@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.57.1490558002.2634.python-list@python.org>
 <626fc6cf-0cf9-4efa-a3ff-f9ca2ddcb7fd@googlegroups.com>
 <CAPTjJmqDU1Wr4y0G=BmYCjEdKLC0_Ch-fNoM2cOykX1vB5B-5Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.136.1490852628.2634.python-list@python.org>
 <ee1ada22-ce6c-4e21-b5ae-cbbbaca0b8ba@googlegroups.com>
 <58dfcea3$0$1596$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <87r31ct6x5.fsf@elektro.pacujo.net>
 <CAPTjJmonZkqjxobneLO+UsAt9Hc54P-3MHjJ3xhMGyKFXs-DWw@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.14.1491065715.2961.python-list@python.org>
 <87h928t5r7.fsf@elektro.pacujo.net>
 <58dfe5b3$0$1616$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
Message-ID: <obqb30$gfv$1@dont-email.me>

Am 01.04.17 um 19:38 schrieb Steve D'Aprano:
> ^home^steve^document.txt
>
>
> I'm sure I'd get used to it in a few years...
>
> Next: convince keyboard manufacturers to move the caret from SHIFT-6 to a
> plain, unshifted key. Buggared if I'm going to hit shift every time I want
> to use an absolute path...

...which is reality for a lot more people than you might think. On a 
German keyboard, / is Shift-7. Same for \ {} [] which require 
carpal-tunneling combinations with the right Alt key "Alt Gr". 
Especially bad are shortcutrs like Ctrl+\ which appear in some software.

	Christian



From marko at pacujo.net  Sun Apr  2 05:15:41 2017
From: marko at pacujo.net (Marko Rauhamaa)
Date: Sun, 02 Apr 2017 12:15:41 +0300
Subject: Text-mode apps (Was :Who are the "spacists"?)
References: <CAE6NSRD=LLyj2qdBR_YX_MkubocQCURVivkHg=+62qgZZ3qCQw@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.38.1490547441.2634.python-list@python.org>
 <58d80413$0$1595$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <CAE6NSRDpdadqORG1w0529bvvw_Gkoau8xTga3LYS=LfGCmXuqg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPTjJmojKPE3d4y5YEJJuGer174Yv0ZcobJGOp8rmYgYYYefbg@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.57.1490558002.2634.python-list@python.org>
 <626fc6cf-0cf9-4efa-a3ff-f9ca2ddcb7fd@googlegroups.com>
 <CAPTjJmqDU1Wr4y0G=BmYCjEdKLC0_Ch-fNoM2cOykX1vB5B-5Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.136.1490852628.2634.python-list@python.org>
 <ee1ada22-ce6c-4e21-b5ae-cbbbaca0b8ba@googlegroups.com>
 <58dfcea3$0$1596$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <87r31ct6x5.fsf@elektro.pacujo.net>
 <CAPTjJmonZkqjxobneLO+UsAt9Hc54P-3MHjJ3xhMGyKFXs-DWw@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.14.1491065715.2961.python-list@python.org>
 <87h928t5r7.fsf@elektro.pacujo.net>
 <58dfe5b3$0$1616$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <obqb30$gfv$1@dont-email.me>
Message-ID: <87r31b5fwi.fsf@elektro.pacujo.net>

Christian Gollwitzer <auriocus at gmx.de>:

> Am 01.04.17 um 19:38 schrieb Steve D'Aprano:
>> Next: convince keyboard manufacturers to move the caret from SHIFT-6
>> to a plain, unshifted key. Buggared if I'm going to hit shift every
>> time I want to use an absolute path...
>
> ...which is reality for a lot more people than you might think. On a
> German keyboard, / is Shift-7. Same for \ {} [] which require
> carpal-tunneling combinations with the right Alt key "Alt Gr".
> Especially bad are shortcutrs like Ctrl+\ which appear in some
> software.

Same with the Finnish keyboard. It's a crime against ergonomy. That's
why I have remapped my keyboard for my personal needs (languages,
programming).


Marko


From bc at freeuk.com  Sun Apr  2 07:12:10 2017
From: bc at freeuk.com (bartc)
Date: Sun, 2 Apr 2017 12:12:10 +0100
Subject: Text-mode apps (Was :Who are the "spacists"?)
In-Reply-To: <87wpb3ste3.fsf@elektro.pacujo.net>
References: <CAE6NSRD=LLyj2qdBR_YX_MkubocQCURVivkHg=+62qgZZ3qCQw@mail.gmail.com>
 <626fc6cf-0cf9-4efa-a3ff-f9ca2ddcb7fd@googlegroups.com>
 <CAPTjJmqDU1Wr4y0G=BmYCjEdKLC0_Ch-fNoM2cOykX1vB5B-5Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.136.1490852628.2634.python-list@python.org>
 <ee1ada22-ce6c-4e21-b5ae-cbbbaca0b8ba@googlegroups.com>
 <58dfcea3$0$1596$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <87r31ct6x5.fsf@elektro.pacujo.net>
 <CAPTjJmonZkqjxobneLO+UsAt9Hc54P-3MHjJ3xhMGyKFXs-DWw@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.14.1491065715.2961.python-list@python.org>
 <87h928t5r7.fsf@elektro.pacujo.net>
 <58dfe5b3$0$1616$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <87a87zua6k.fsf@elektro.pacujo.net>
 <CAPTjJmqhyQPWyJ2wpopUXn1LTbR+Cnz=-NfoTmMCH5WJXN08CQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.23.1491080455.2961.python-list@python.org>
 <871stbu9az.fsf@elektro.pacujo.net>
 <CAPTjJmprWwF4fzR2j1FYywyXrs-kZ7XF1xXOPBHPjVAmjyk09A@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.24.1491081745.2961.python-list@python.org>
 <87wpb3ste3.fsf@elektro.pacujo.net>
Message-ID: <d05EA.534366$nT1.397264@fx44.am4>

On 01/04/2017 22:35, Marko Rauhamaa wrote:
> Chris Angelico <rosuav at gmail.com>:
>
>> there is no way within Python to have a string that can represent two
>> strings, which is what directory separators do.
>
> Really? Try:
>
>    >>> repr(("a", "b"))
>    "('a', 'b')"
>
> There! A string that represents two strings.
>
> Note, however, that Python programs generally don't restrict themselves
> to expressing objects via strings. There are even objects with no string
> representation at all.
>
> A pathname is a list of strings. Python could naturally express it as
> just that:
>
>   [ "usr", "bin", "python3" ]
>
>
> I'm not really proposing any change to the status quo. What's done is
> done. However, I do think it is awkward to ban one particular, very
> common character while allowing all the rest.

Space is quite common as well, especially in titles of things chosen by 
non-technical users. That also needs special treatment.

There are quite a few other characters with special meanings that people 
might want to use. It's not just stroke.

But people, when unrestrained, will /always/ want to do something that 
may not be practical. For example, why bother with the separate concepts 
'filename' and 'file'; just have the file contents /as/ the filename! If 
there are no limits on how long a filename is or what characters it can 
have, then people will take advantage.

Or they will want to use the full path of one file, as the part of the 
filename of another; is each "/" a separator, or part of the embedded path?

Anyway, I'm sure out of the million unicode characters, there must be 
something that /looks/ like a stroke, but isn't a stroke. Just to add to 
the confusion.


-- 
bartc


From rosuav at gmail.com  Sun Apr  2 07:21:49 2017
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Sun, 2 Apr 2017 21:21:49 +1000
Subject: Text-mode apps (Was :Who are the "spacists"?)
In-Reply-To: <d05EA.534366$nT1.397264@fx44.am4>
References: <CAE6NSRD=LLyj2qdBR_YX_MkubocQCURVivkHg=+62qgZZ3qCQw@mail.gmail.com>
 <626fc6cf-0cf9-4efa-a3ff-f9ca2ddcb7fd@googlegroups.com>
 <CAPTjJmqDU1Wr4y0G=BmYCjEdKLC0_Ch-fNoM2cOykX1vB5B-5Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.136.1490852628.2634.python-list@python.org>
 <ee1ada22-ce6c-4e21-b5ae-cbbbaca0b8ba@googlegroups.com>
 <58dfcea3$0$1596$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <87r31ct6x5.fsf@elektro.pacujo.net>
 <CAPTjJmonZkqjxobneLO+UsAt9Hc54P-3MHjJ3xhMGyKFXs-DWw@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.14.1491065715.2961.python-list@python.org>
 <87h928t5r7.fsf@elektro.pacujo.net>
 <58dfe5b3$0$1616$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <87a87zua6k.fsf@elektro.pacujo.net>
 <CAPTjJmqhyQPWyJ2wpopUXn1LTbR+Cnz=-NfoTmMCH5WJXN08CQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.23.1491080455.2961.python-list@python.org>
 <871stbu9az.fsf@elektro.pacujo.net>
 <CAPTjJmprWwF4fzR2j1FYywyXrs-kZ7XF1xXOPBHPjVAmjyk09A@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.24.1491081745.2961.python-list@python.org>
 <87wpb3ste3.fsf@elektro.pacujo.net>
 <d05EA.534366$nT1.397264@fx44.am4>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmoq+y1pCJJEq5LTMV_Q-g9PO6J-NL6JroPYYRAuOa2yHg@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Apr 2, 2017 at 9:12 PM, bartc <bc at freeuk.com> wrote:
> But people, when unrestrained, will /always/ want to do something that may
> not be practical. For example, why bother with the separate concepts
> 'filename' and 'file'; just have the file contents /as/ the filename! If
> there are no limits on how long a filename is or what characters it can
> have, then people will take advantage.
>

This is possible. It's called a "content-based file system", and it's
the basis of tools like git, for example. But it's not the entire
solution; you still need some way to tell a program which blob to
react to.

ChrisA


From ganesh1pal at gmail.com  Sun Apr  2 12:13:14 2017
From: ganesh1pal at gmail.com (Ganesh Pal)
Date: Sun, 2 Apr 2017 21:43:14 +0530
Subject: Basic Nested Dictionary in a Loop
Message-ID: <CACT3xuUFLfm9vpOhLu7pdB0B=pWQvL7K_pfk435PTMfEZbjcjA@mail.gmail.com>

Dear Python friend


I have a nested  data dictonary in the below format and I need to store
1000 of  entries which are in teh below format


>>> X['emp_01']['salary3'] = dict(sex="f", status="single", exp="4",
grade="A",payment="200")
>>> X['emp_01']['salary4'] = dict(sex="f", status="single", exp="4",
grade="A",payment="400")
>>> X['emp_01']['salary5'] = dict(sex="f", status="single", exp="4",
grade="A",payment="400")


I only thing thats is changing is payment and I have payment_list as a list
[100,200,400,500]:


The value salary3 ,salary4,salary4 is to be generated in the loop . Iam
trying to optimize the above code , by looping as shown below


>>> X = {}
>>> X['emp_01'] ={}
>>> for salary in range(len(payment_list)):
...     X['emp_01'][salary] =  dict(sex="f", status="single", exp="4",
grade="A",payment=payment_list[salary])
...
>>> X
{'emp_01': {0: {'grade': 'A', 'status': 'single', 'payment': 100, 'exp':
'4', 'sex': 'f'}, 1: {'grade': 'A', 'status': 'single', 'payment': 200,
'exp': '4', 'sex': 'f'}, 2: {'grade': 'A', 'status': 'single', 'payment':
400, 'exp': '4', 'sex': 'f'}, 3: {'grade': 'A', 'status': 'single',
'payment': 500, 'exp': '4', 'sex': 'f'}}}
>>>


Any other suggestion ,   Please let me know  I am on python 2.7 and Linux

Regards,
Ganesh


From steve+python at pearwood.info  Sun Apr  2 12:26:40 2017
From: steve+python at pearwood.info (Steve D'Aprano)
Date: Mon, 03 Apr 2017 02:26:40 +1000
Subject: Text-mode apps (Was :Who are the "spacists"?)
References: <CAE6NSRD=LLyj2qdBR_YX_MkubocQCURVivkHg=+62qgZZ3qCQw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPTjJmo6mxAxKQgqNRLFoX6EAnRrwoK6B8f7ids_RbWQ8VoiYg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAE6NSRDsN8vTPkt4E4LU6JGMEqUME3DQ73GPZ-f_7uVCR-aGrw@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.38.1490547441.2634.python-list@python.org>
 <58d80413$0$1595$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <CAE6NSRDpdadqORG1w0529bvvw_Gkoau8xTga3LYS=LfGCmXuqg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPTjJmojKPE3d4y5YEJJuGer174Yv0ZcobJGOp8rmYgYYYefbg@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.57.1490558002.2634.python-list@python.org>
 <626fc6cf-0cf9-4efa-a3ff-f9ca2ddcb7fd@googlegroups.com>
 <CAPTjJmqDU1Wr4y0G=BmYCjEdKLC0_Ch-fNoM2cOykX1vB5B-5Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.136.1490852628.2634.python-list@python.org>
 <ee1ada22-ce6c-4e21-b5ae-cbbbaca0b8ba@googlegroups.com>
 <58dfcea3$0$1596$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <obq6fc$219$1@blaine.gmane.org>
 <mailman.42.1491115334.2961.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <58e12641$0$1597$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>

On Sun, 2 Apr 2017 04:41 pm, Terry Reedy wrote:

> On 4/1/2017 12:00 PM, Steve D'Aprano wrote:
> 
>> example of the Ugly American.
> 
> As an American I resent your promotion and perpetuation of an ugly
> ethno-centric stereotype.

I'm glad you didn't try to describe it as a *unfair* or *unjustified*
stereotype, because (let's face it) after November 8th 2016, that simply
wouldn't fly.

Not all Americans, perhaps not even a majority or a plurality, are Ugly
Americans, but there are enough of them to screw it up for everyone else.

It's an ugly stereotype, not because it is a stereotype, but because it
embodies a set of ugly attitudes and behaviours.



-- 
Steve
?Cheer up,? they said, ?things could be worse.? So I cheered up, and sure
enough, things got worse.



From i.am.songoku at gmail.com  Sun Apr  2 12:47:49 2017
From: i.am.songoku at gmail.com (Krishnan Shankar)
Date: Sun, 2 Apr 2017 22:17:49 +0530
Subject: In Python and Windows environment how to supress certain key press
 and send some other key event for it
Message-ID: <CAL0E0u4fBjwp9toAy-8G57Lx9MuQdAR-=6S8fyaCtpq8VhkPUw@mail.gmail.com>

Hi All,

I was trying to build a VIM like shortcuts in windows. For example,

IF i press CAPSLOCK & h: It should "{Left}" move one to left. If CAPSLOCK &
b: It should "{Ctrl Down}{Left}{Ctrl Up}" move one word left etc.

I was successful in sending the key event. I used libraries like,

1. pynput
2. keyboard

for the same.

But i was unable to supress the Initial key event (ex: Caplock & h)

I tried using the keyboard to listen for key press events and supress them
as below.

>>>>>
import keyboard

def move_one_left():
    """
    Wrapper for CAPS LOCK + b. The function sends LEFT ARROW Event
    :return:
    """
    keyboard.send(75)

def move_one_word_left():
    """
    Wrapper for CAPS LOCK + b. The function sends LEFT ARROW Event
    :return:
    """
    keyboard.send('ctrl+left')

def main():
    """
    This is the main loop which reads the key pressed.
    According to the hotkey registered the function hooked is called.
    The corresponding function will be the wrapped combination send back.
    For example: CAPS + b is wrapped to Moving to left.
    The main loop exits when Ctrl + c is done. So that is not registered.
    :return:
    """
    try:
        # Start of the main loop
        # Registering the hotkeys
        # CAPS LOCK + H
        keyboard.add_hotkey('caps lock+h', move_one_left, suppress=True)
        # CAPS LOCK + B
        keyboard.add_hotkey('caps lock+b', move_one_word_left,
suppress=True)

        while True:
            # Read the key pressed
            print (keyboard.read_key())
    except KeyboardInterrupt:
        print("User has exited the program")

if __name__ == "__main__":
    main()

<<<<<


This is working for sending the event for key press but the initial
keypress is also being send. The supress=True is not working.

Am I doing something wrong or is there any better way to supress the
initial key event and send another key event in place of that.


Regards,
Krishnan


From __peter__ at web.de  Sun Apr  2 13:02:17 2017
From: __peter__ at web.de (Peter Otten)
Date: Sun, 02 Apr 2017 19:02:17 +0200
Subject: Basic Nested Dictionary in a Loop
References: <CACT3xuUFLfm9vpOhLu7pdB0B=pWQvL7K_pfk435PTMfEZbjcjA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <obraqo$4lt$1@blaine.gmane.org>

Ganesh Pal wrote:

> Dear Python friend
> 
> 
> I have a nested  data dictonary in the below format and I need to store
> 1000 of  entries which are in teh below format
> 
> 
>>>> X['emp_01']['salary3'] = dict(sex="f", status="single", exp="4",
> grade="A",payment="200")
>>>> X['emp_01']['salary4'] = dict(sex="f", status="single", exp="4",
> grade="A",payment="400")
>>>> X['emp_01']['salary5'] = dict(sex="f", status="single", exp="4",
> grade="A",payment="400")
> 
> 
> I only thing thats is changing is payment and I have payment_list as a
> list
> [100,200,400,500]:
> 
> 
> The value salary3 ,salary4,salary4 is to be generated in the loop . Iam
> trying to optimize the above code , by looping as shown below
> 
> 
>>>> X = {}
>>>> X['emp_01'] ={}
>>>> for salary in range(len(payment_list)):

Whenever you feel the urge to write range(len(whatever)) -- resist that 
temptation, and you'll end up with better Python code ;)

> ...     X['emp_01'][salary] =  dict(sex="f", status="single", exp="4",
> grade="A",payment=payment_list[salary])
> ...
>>>> X
> {'emp_01': {0: {'grade': 'A', 'status': 'single', 'payment': 100, 'exp':
> '4', 'sex': 'f'}, 1: {'grade': 'A', 'status': 'single', 'payment': 200,
> 'exp': '4', 'sex': 'f'}, 2: {'grade': 'A', 'status': 'single', 'payment':
> 400, 'exp': '4', 'sex': 'f'}, 3: {'grade': 'A', 'status': 'single',
> 'payment': 500, 'exp': '4', 'sex': 'f'}}}
>>>>
> 
> 
> Any other suggestion ,   Please let me know  I am on python 2.7 and Linux

Instead of artificially blowing up your database change its structure. For 
example:

X["emp_01"] = dict(
    sex="f", 
    status="single", 
    exp="4", 
    grade="A",
    payments=[100, 200, 400, 500]
)



From steve+python at pearwood.info  Sun Apr  2 13:05:07 2017
From: steve+python at pearwood.info (Steve D'Aprano)
Date: Mon, 03 Apr 2017 03:05:07 +1000
Subject: Basic Nested Dictionary in a Loop
References: <CACT3xuUFLfm9vpOhLu7pdB0B=pWQvL7K_pfk435PTMfEZbjcjA@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.45.1491149602.2961.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <58e12f46$0$1618$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>

On Mon, 3 Apr 2017 02:13 am, Ganesh Pal wrote:

> Dear Python friend
> 
> 
> I have a nested  data dictonary in the below format and I need to store
> 1000 of  entries which are in teh below format
> 
> 
>>>> X['emp_01']['salary3'] = dict(sex="f", status="single", exp="4",
> grade="A",payment="200")
>>>> X['emp_01']['salary4'] = dict(sex="f", status="single", exp="4",
> grade="A",payment="400")
>>>> X['emp_01']['salary5'] = dict(sex="f", status="single", exp="4",
> grade="A",payment="400")

Why is payment a string?


> I only thing thats is changing is payment and I have payment_list as a
> list
> [100,200,400,500]:

And here payment is an int.


> The value salary3 ,salary4,salary4 is to be generated in the loop . Iam
> trying to optimize the above code , by looping as shown below

In the above example, you have strings "salary3", "salary4", "salary5", but
in the code below, you use 0, 1, 2 instead.

Which do you intend to use?


>>>> X = {}
>>>> X['emp_01'] ={}
>>>> for salary in range(len(payment_list)):
> ...     X['emp_01'][salary] =  dict(sex="f", status="single", exp="4",
> grade="A",payment=payment_list[salary])


You should almost never need to write `range(len(payment_list))`.


payment_list = [100, 200, 400, 500]

employees = {}
employees['emp_01'] = {}
for salary, payment in enumerate(payment_list, 3):
    # I don't know why salary starts at 3 instead of 1 or 0.
    salary = 'salary' + str(salary)
    employees['emp_01'][salary] = dict(
            sex="f", status="single", exp="4", grade="A", payment=payment
            )

from pprint import pprint
pprint(employees)


{'emp_01': {'salary3': {'exp': '4',
                        'grade': 'A',
                        'payment': 100,
                        'sex': 'f',
                        'status': 'single'},
            'salary4': {'exp': '4',
                        'grade': 'A',
                        'payment': 200,
                        'sex': 'f',
                        'status': 'single'},
            'salary5': {'exp': '4',
                        'grade': 'A',
                        'payment': 400,
                        'sex': 'f',
                        'status': 'single'},
            'salary6': {'exp': '4',
                        'grade': 'A',
                        'payment': 500,
                        'sex': 'f',
                        'status': 'single'}}}




-- 
Steve
?Cheer up,? they said, ?things could be worse.? So I cheered up, and sure
enough, things got worse.



From gheskett at shentel.net  Sun Apr  2 13:30:44 2017
From: gheskett at shentel.net (Gene Heskett)
Date: Sun, 2 Apr 2017 13:30:44 -0400
Subject: Text-mode apps (Was :Who are the "spacists"?)
In-Reply-To: <58e12641$0$1597$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
References: <CAE6NSRD=LLyj2qdBR_YX_MkubocQCURVivkHg=+62qgZZ3qCQw@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.42.1491115334.2961.python-list@python.org>
 <58e12641$0$1597$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
Message-ID: <201704021330.44532.gheskett@shentel.net>

On Sunday 02 April 2017 12:26:40 Steve D'Aprano wrote:

> On Sun, 2 Apr 2017 04:41 pm, Terry Reedy wrote:
> > On 4/1/2017 12:00 PM, Steve D'Aprano wrote:
> >> example of the Ugly American.
> >
> > As an American I resent your promotion and perpetuation of an ugly
> > ethno-centric stereotype.
>
> I'm glad you didn't try to describe it as a *unfair* or *unjustified*
> stereotype, because (let's face it) after November 8th 2016, that
> simply wouldn't fly.

While I too detest that label, I will have to admit that I am one of the 
conservatives, believing our Constitution and Bill of Rights have been 
used as TP by the "establishment" over the last 65+ years, who enabled 
that surprise.

Wash., DC has been turned into a polluted swamp that needed drained and 
cleaned up, and the Donald was the only one that wasn't part of the same 
old, same old, bull crap establishment, and with enough money to run.

However, I'll be the first to admit I am less than impressed with his 
efforts vis-a-vis global warming. He, I suspect, will be a 1 term 
president unless he starts listening to the technical people's warnings.

I'd also make the prediction that the 2020 winner will _not_ be from the 
establishment. Maybe not even from the two party system. I am hoping 
that this will cause all (surviving) parties to do some navel gazing, 
and contemplating not how to enrich the constituent businesses they own 
under the table, but maybe, actually work for the common good. Taking 
money completely out of the equation would be one way, but you could 
hear the gored oxen that would wound fatally clear out to Pluto, without 
a radio.

Human avarice being what it is, whether I'll live long enough to see that 
happen isn't up to me. At 82, it doesn't look like near as big a chance 
as it did when I was 60.
>
> Not all Americans, perhaps not even a majority or a plurality, are
> Ugly Americans, but there are enough of them to screw it up for
> everyone else.
>
Generally, I try to stay out of the Ugly camp. Then I look in the mirror 
and know its hopeless. :(

[...]

Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page <http://geneslinuxbox.net:6309/gene>


From ganesh1pal at gmail.com  Sun Apr  2 13:46:52 2017
From: ganesh1pal at gmail.com (Ganesh Pal)
Date: Sun, 2 Apr 2017 23:16:52 +0530
Subject: Basic Nested Dictionary in a Loop
In-Reply-To: <58e12f46$0$1618$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
References: <CACT3xuUFLfm9vpOhLu7pdB0B=pWQvL7K_pfk435PTMfEZbjcjA@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.45.1491149602.2961.python-list@python.org>
 <58e12f46$0$1618$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
Message-ID: <CACT3xuX+Vv3dkuJy0RDNmw3Ce_0dOeguraNi=B8hRb2SKYXrNA@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Apr 2, 2017 at 10:35 PM, Steve D'Aprano <steve+python at pearwood.info>
wrote:

>
> Why is payment a string?
>
> Yes it should be int


>
> > The value salary3 ,salary4,salary4 is to be generated in the loop . Iam
> > trying to optimize the above code , by looping as shown below
>
> In the above example, you have strings "salary3", "salary4", "salary5", but
> in the code below, you use 0, 1, 2 instead.
>
> Which do you intend to use?
>
>  It must be Salary1,Salary2



> payment_list = [100, 200, 400, 500]
>
> employees = {}
> employees['emp_01'] = {}
> for salary, payment in enumerate(payment_list, 3):
>     # I don't know why salary starts at 3 instead of 1 or 0.
>     salary = 'salary' + str(salary)
>     employees['emp_01'][salary] = dict(
>             sex="f", status="single", exp="4", grade="A", payment=payment
>             )
>
> from pprint import pprint
> pprint(employees)
>
>
> {'emp_01': {'salary3': {'exp': '4',
>                         'grade': 'A',
>                         'payment': 100,
>                         'sex': 'f',
>                         'status': 'single'},
>             'salary4': {'exp': '4',
>                         'grade': 'A',
>                         'payment': 200,
>                         'sex': 'f',
>                         'status': 'single'},
>             'salary5': {'exp': '4',
>                         'grade': 'A',
>                         'payment': 400,
>                         'sex': 'f',
>                         'status': 'single'},
>             'salary6': {'exp': '4',
>                         'grade': 'A',
>                         'payment': 500,
>                         'sex': 'f',
>                         'status': 'single'}}}
>
>
>
>
Thanks ;
Ganesh


From ganesh1pal at gmail.com  Sun Apr  2 13:59:36 2017
From: ganesh1pal at gmail.com (Ganesh Pal)
Date: Sun, 2 Apr 2017 23:29:36 +0530
Subject: Basic Nested Dictionary in a Loop
In-Reply-To: <obraqo$4lt$1@blaine.gmane.org>
References: <CACT3xuUFLfm9vpOhLu7pdB0B=pWQvL7K_pfk435PTMfEZbjcjA@mail.gmail.com>
 <obraqo$4lt$1@blaine.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <CACT3xuXeBAt9s9Wj8D=jBd7gUr8JWqP3U5ngoc-uqJ2ntRp5mQ@mail.gmail.com>

>
>
> Whenever you feel the urge to write range(len(whatever)) -- resist that
> temptation, and you'll end up with better Python code ;)
>
>
Thanks for this suggestion but for my better understanding can  explain
this further even Steve did point the same mistake.


>
> Instead of artificially blowing up your database change its structure. For
> example:
>
>
Good point Actually , I might be heading towards this, let me ask this in a
fresh email thread


From phd at phdru.name  Sun Apr  2 15:01:50 2017
From: phd at phdru.name (Oleg Broytman)
Date: Sun, 2 Apr 2017 21:01:50 +0200
Subject: Cheetah 3.0.0a1
Message-ID: <20170402190150.GA20413@phdru.name>

Hello! I'm happy to announce I revived development of Cheetah.
Unfortunately I have to fork the project.

I'm pleased to announce version 3.0.0a1, the first alpha of the upcoming
release of branch 3.0 of CheetahTemplate3.


What's new in CheetahTemplate3
==============================

Contributors for this release are Adam Karpierz and Jonathan Ross Rogers.

- !!!THIS RELEASE REQUIRES RECOMPILATION OF ALL COMPILED CHEETAH TEMPLATES!!!
- Stop supporting Python older than 2.7.
- Update code to work with Python 3.3+. Tested with 3.3, 3.4, 3.5 and 3.6.
- Run tests at Travis (Linux) and AppVeyor (w32) with Python 2.7, 3.3, 3.4,
  3.5 and 3.6; x86 and x64.
- Fix a bug in multiple inheritance (#extend Parent1, Parent2).
  Pull request by Jonathan Ross Rogers.


What is CheetahTemplate3
========================

Cheetah3 is a free and open source template engine.
It's a fork of the original CheetahTemplate library.

Python 2.7 or 3.3+ is required.


Where is CheetahTemplate3
=========================

Site:
http://cheetahtemplate.org/

Development:
https://github.com/CheetahTemplate3

Download:
https://pypi.python.org/pypi/Cheetah3/3.0.0a1

News and changes:
http://cheetahtemplate.org/news.html

Oleg.
-- 
     Oleg Broytman            http://phdru.name/            phd at phdru.name
           Programmers don't die, they just GOSUB without RETURN.


From breamoreboy at gmail.com  Sun Apr  2 17:52:00 2017
From: breamoreboy at gmail.com (breamoreboy at gmail.com)
Date: Sun, 2 Apr 2017 14:52:00 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Temporary variables in list comprehensions
In-Reply-To: <obpfd2$459$1@gioia.aioe.org>
References: <58730938$0$1597$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <obpfd2$459$1@gioia.aioe.org>
Message-ID: <b79d65c2-f901-4919-b850-ce3e43b85dbf@googlegroups.com>

On Sunday, April 2, 2017 at 1:08:17 AM UTC+1, Robert L. wrote:

> I don't believe in western morality, i.e. don't kill civilians or children....
> The only way to fight a moral war is the Jewish way: Destroy their holy sites.
> Kill men, women, and children (and cattle). --- Rabbi Manis Friedman
> web.archive.org/web/20090605154706/http://www.momentmag.com/Exclusive/2009/2009-06/200906-Ask_Rabbis.html
> archive.org/download/DavidDukeVideo/TheZionistMatrixOfPowerddhd.ogv

Completely agree with Steven D'Aprano so would the moderators please ban Robert L with immediate effect.

Kindest regards.

Mark Lawrence.


From tjreedy at udel.edu  Sun Apr  2 18:31:09 2017
From: tjreedy at udel.edu (Terry Reedy)
Date: Sun, 2 Apr 2017 18:31:09 -0400
Subject: Text-mode apps (Was :Who are the "spacists"?)
In-Reply-To: <58e12641$0$1597$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
References: <CAE6NSRD=LLyj2qdBR_YX_MkubocQCURVivkHg=+62qgZZ3qCQw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPTjJmo6mxAxKQgqNRLFoX6EAnRrwoK6B8f7ids_RbWQ8VoiYg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAE6NSRDsN8vTPkt4E4LU6JGMEqUME3DQ73GPZ-f_7uVCR-aGrw@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.38.1490547441.2634.python-list@python.org>
 <58d80413$0$1595$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <CAE6NSRDpdadqORG1w0529bvvw_Gkoau8xTga3LYS=LfGCmXuqg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPTjJmojKPE3d4y5YEJJuGer174Yv0ZcobJGOp8rmYgYYYefbg@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.57.1490558002.2634.python-list@python.org>
 <626fc6cf-0cf9-4efa-a3ff-f9ca2ddcb7fd@googlegroups.com>
 <CAPTjJmqDU1Wr4y0G=BmYCjEdKLC0_Ch-fNoM2cOykX1vB5B-5Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.136.1490852628.2634.python-list@python.org>
 <ee1ada22-ce6c-4e21-b5ae-cbbbaca0b8ba@googlegroups.com>
 <58dfcea3$0$1596$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <obq6fc$219$1@blaine.gmane.org>
 <mailman.42.1491115334.2961.python-list@python.org>
 <58e12641$0$1597$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
Message-ID: <obru38$l35$1@blaine.gmane.org>

On 4/2/2017 12:26 PM, Steve D'Aprano wrote:
> On Sun, 2 Apr 2017 04:41 pm, Terry Reedy wrote:
>
>> On 4/1/2017 12:00 PM, Steve D'Aprano wrote:
>>
>>> example of the Ugly American.
>>
>> As an American I resent your promotion and perpetuation of an ugly
>> ethno-centric stereotype.
>
> I'm glad you didn't try to describe it as a *unfair* or *unjustified*

I refrained because it would be off-topic and a diversion from my point: 
all bigotry is inappropriate here on this list, including anti-Americanism.

(I actually think raw bigoty is inappropriate everywhere.  While there 
are places to discuss the relative average beauty and niceness of 
various groups of people, this is not one of them.  Even comparisons of 
computer languages is not the main focus of this list.)

> stereotype, because (let's face it) after November 8th 2016, that simply
> wouldn't fly.

The 'Ugly American' meme is at least 60 years old.  National bigotry is 
as old as nations.

Yesterday, Chris Angelico, I believe it was, asked someone to stop 
including anti-Jew messages in posts here.  So I asked the same of you 
regarding your anti-American expression.

> Not all Americans, perhaps not even a majority or a plurality, are Ugly
> Americans, but there are enough of them to screw it up for everyone else.

Shall we discuss Ugly Australians, or whatever the appropriate epithet 
would be?

> It's an ugly stereotype, not because it is a stereotype, but because it
 > embodies a set of ugly attitudes and behaviours.

I am sure I have seen similar things written by various other people 
justifying their prejudices.


-- 
Terry Jan Reedy



From tjreedy at udel.edu  Sun Apr  2 18:51:14 2017
From: tjreedy at udel.edu (Terry Reedy)
Date: Sun, 2 Apr 2017 18:51:14 -0400
Subject: Basic Nested Dictionary in a Loop
In-Reply-To: <CACT3xuXeBAt9s9Wj8D=jBd7gUr8JWqP3U5ngoc-uqJ2ntRp5mQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CACT3xuUFLfm9vpOhLu7pdB0B=pWQvL7K_pfk435PTMfEZbjcjA@mail.gmail.com>
 <obraqo$4lt$1@blaine.gmane.org>
 <CACT3xuXeBAt9s9Wj8D=jBd7gUr8JWqP3U5ngoc-uqJ2ntRp5mQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <obrv8s$c0f$1@blaine.gmane.org>

On 4/2/2017 1:59 PM, Ganesh Pal wrote:

 > 'someone' wrote
>> Whenever you feel the urge to write range(len(whatever)) -- resist that
>> temptation, and you'll end up with better Python code ;)

> Thanks for this suggestion but for my better understanding can explain
> this further even Steve did point the same mistake.

Before 2.2, one could only iterate through a sequence of integers, or 
something that pretended to be such.  So the way to iterate though a 
finite sequence of non-ints was

for i in range(len(seq)):
     item = seq[i]
     <do stuff with item>

The current iterator protocol allows one to separate item access or 
generation from item processing and to hide the former in an iterator. 
One then says in the header what collection of items one want to process 
and in what order (one at a time) and in the body what one wants to do 
with them.

for item in seq:  # items of seq in normal order
     <do stuff with item>

for item in iterable:  # not restricted to sequences, default order
     <do stuff with item>

Some other variations in the new form.

for item in reversed(iterable):  # finite collection in reversed order
     <do stuff with item>

for i, item in enumerate(seq):
     <do stuff with i and item>

for item1, item2 in zip(seq1, seq2):
      <do stuff with item1 and item2>

-- 
Terry Jan Reedy



From ben+python at benfinney.id.au  Sun Apr  2 19:10:54 2017
From: ben+python at benfinney.id.au (Ben Finney)
Date: Mon, 03 Apr 2017 09:10:54 +1000
Subject: All people deserve respect. Ideas are not people. (was: Text-mode
 apps)
References: <CAE6NSRD=LLyj2qdBR_YX_MkubocQCURVivkHg=+62qgZZ3qCQw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPTjJmo6mxAxKQgqNRLFoX6EAnRrwoK6B8f7ids_RbWQ8VoiYg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAE6NSRDsN8vTPkt4E4LU6JGMEqUME3DQ73GPZ-f_7uVCR-aGrw@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.38.1490547441.2634.python-list@python.org>
 <58d80413$0$1595$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <CAE6NSRDpdadqORG1w0529bvvw_Gkoau8xTga3LYS=LfGCmXuqg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPTjJmojKPE3d4y5YEJJuGer174Yv0ZcobJGOp8rmYgYYYefbg@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.57.1490558002.2634.python-list@python.org>
 <626fc6cf-0cf9-4efa-a3ff-f9ca2ddcb7fd@googlegroups.com>
 <CAPTjJmqDU1Wr4y0G=BmYCjEdKLC0_Ch-fNoM2cOykX1vB5B-5Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.136.1490852628.2634.python-list@python.org>
 <ee1ada22-ce6c-4e21-b5ae-cbbbaca0b8ba@googlegroups.com>
 <58dfcea3$0$1596$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <obq6fc$219$1@blaine.gmane.org>
 <mailman.42.1491115334.2961.python-list@python.org>
 <58e12641$0$1597$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <obru38$l35$1@blaine.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <85y3vie77l.fsf_-_@benfinney.id.au>

Terry Reedy <tjreedy at udel.edu> writes:

> On 4/2/2017 12:26 PM, Steve D'Aprano wrote:
> > Not all Americans, perhaps not even a majority or a plurality, are Ugly
> > Americans, but there are enough of them to screw it up for everyone else.
>
> Shall we discuss Ugly Australians, or whatever the appropriate epithet
> would be?

Provided that, just as Steven has done, the discussion criticises ideas,
attitudes, and behaviours: that would not be bigotry nor prejudice at
all.

It's a difficult distinction, but an essential one: we *must* be free
always to hold ideas and behaviours to harsh criticism when warranted,
no matter who holds or does them, while respecting the dignity and
rights and individuality of all persons.

> > It's an ugly stereotype, not because it is a stereotype, but because
> > it embodies a set of ugly attitudes and behaviours.
>
> I am sure I have seen similar things written by various other people
> justifying their prejudices.

Prejudice on the basis of a person's innate traits has no place in civil
society.

Ideas are not people, and are not innate to the person who holds them.
An idea is not deserving of respect; that respect must not be assumed,
it must be earned.

More importantly, ideas inform behaviour. That is what makes robust
criticism of bad ideas so important.

Once an idea is expressed or demonstrated through behaviour, that idea
or behaviour is not innately deserving of respect, and it becomes fair
game for open criticism.

What we need to always keep in mind is that the *idea* should be
criticised, without attacking the *person*.

-- 
 \           ?Value your freedom or you will lose it, teaches history. |
  `\     ?Don't bother us with politics,? respond those who don't want |
_o__)                            to learn.? ?Richard M. Stallman, 2002 |
Ben Finney



From torriem at gmail.com  Sun Apr  2 19:39:19 2017
From: torriem at gmail.com (Michael Torrie)
Date: Sun, 2 Apr 2017 17:39:19 -0600
Subject: All people deserve respect. Ideas are not people.
In-Reply-To: <85y3vie77l.fsf_-_@benfinney.id.au>
References: <CAE6NSRD=LLyj2qdBR_YX_MkubocQCURVivkHg=+62qgZZ3qCQw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAE6NSRDsN8vTPkt4E4LU6JGMEqUME3DQ73GPZ-f_7uVCR-aGrw@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.38.1490547441.2634.python-list@python.org>
 <58d80413$0$1595$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <CAE6NSRDpdadqORG1w0529bvvw_Gkoau8xTga3LYS=LfGCmXuqg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPTjJmojKPE3d4y5YEJJuGer174Yv0ZcobJGOp8rmYgYYYefbg@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.57.1490558002.2634.python-list@python.org>
 <626fc6cf-0cf9-4efa-a3ff-f9ca2ddcb7fd@googlegroups.com>
 <CAPTjJmqDU1Wr4y0G=BmYCjEdKLC0_Ch-fNoM2cOykX1vB5B-5Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.136.1490852628.2634.python-list@python.org>
 <ee1ada22-ce6c-4e21-b5ae-cbbbaca0b8ba@googlegroups.com>
 <58dfcea3$0$1596$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <obq6fc$219$1@blaine.gmane.org>
 <mailman.42.1491115334.2961.python-list@python.org>
 <58e12641$0$1597$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <obru38$l35$1@blaine.gmane.org> <85y3vie77l.fsf_-_@benfinney.id.au>
Message-ID: <908f9d7d-063f-cb52-1d47-d959db27a092@gmail.com>

On 04/02/2017 05:10 PM, Ben Finney wrote:
> <snip>
> Ideas are not people, and are not innate to the person who holds them.
> An idea is not deserving of respect; that respect must not be assumed,
> it must be earned.
> 
> More importantly, ideas inform behaviour. That is what makes robust
> criticism of bad ideas so important.
> 
> Once an idea is expressed or demonstrated through behaviour, that idea
> or behaviour is not innately deserving of respect, and it becomes fair
> game for open criticism.
> 
> What we need to always keep in mind is that the *idea* should be
> criticised, without attacking the *person*.

Very well said.  Thank you.



From torriem at gmail.com  Sun Apr  2 20:06:21 2017
From: torriem at gmail.com (Michael Torrie)
Date: Sun, 2 Apr 2017 18:06:21 -0600
Subject: All people deserve respect. Ideas are not people.
In-Reply-To: <CA+M9+8Wwi_T0eYpt+XvC4bsQcZLgww1VPp14usLSnHRTQPLV2Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAE6NSRD=LLyj2qdBR_YX_MkubocQCURVivkHg=+62qgZZ3qCQw@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.38.1490547441.2634.python-list@python.org>
 <58d80413$0$1595$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <CAE6NSRDpdadqORG1w0529bvvw_Gkoau8xTga3LYS=LfGCmXuqg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPTjJmojKPE3d4y5YEJJuGer174Yv0ZcobJGOp8rmYgYYYefbg@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.57.1490558002.2634.python-list@python.org>
 <626fc6cf-0cf9-4efa-a3ff-f9ca2ddcb7fd@googlegroups.com>
 <CAPTjJmqDU1Wr4y0G=BmYCjEdKLC0_Ch-fNoM2cOykX1vB5B-5Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.136.1490852628.2634.python-list@python.org>
 <ee1ada22-ce6c-4e21-b5ae-cbbbaca0b8ba@googlegroups.com>
 <58dfcea3$0$1596$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <obq6fc$219$1@blaine.gmane.org>
 <mailman.42.1491115334.2961.python-list@python.org>
 <58e12641$0$1597$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <obru38$l35$1@blaine.gmane.org> <85y3vie77l.fsf_-_@benfinney.id.au>
 <908f9d7d-063f-cb52-1d47-d959db27a092@gmail.com>
 <CA+M9+8Wwi_T0eYpt+XvC4bsQcZLgww1VPp14usLSnHRTQPLV2Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1e96feb3-0ba7-ff5b-eafa-0987de6d7ff6@gmail.com>

On 04/02/2017 06:00 PM, Alex Kaye wrote:
> Michael,  Thanks for your comment.
> 
> However, If one derails from the core subject
> 
> they need to be in another stream.  Alex

I think you'll find that the subject line was changed by Ben Finney to
reflect the new direction he was taking it, which is the usual and
expected list etiquette.  The change of subject line puts it in "another
stream" as you say.  Steve D'Aprano should have probably changed it a
long time ago. And of course RR should have been plonked by Steven and
others a long time ago also.  But I digress.

Again I am very glad Ben posted what he did and glad to show my support
for what he said, though it will likely fall on deaf ears.

thanks.


From python at deborahswanson.net  Sun Apr  2 21:26:07 2017
From: python at deborahswanson.net (Deborah Swanson)
Date: Sun, 2 Apr 2017 18:26:07 -0700
Subject: Two variable dictionary comprehension
Message-ID: <001701d2ac19$45fbdea0$27b23dae@sambora>

It seems like this should be easy to rewrite as a dict comprehension:

    records_idx = {}
    for idx, label in enumerate(records[0]):
        records_idx[label] = idx

Maybe I'm having another "dumb day", or maybe I've just been struggling
with this (larger) problem for too long, but eveything I try to get an
equivalent dict comprehension for the 3 lines above is not working.



From rosuav at gmail.com  Sun Apr  2 21:36:54 2017
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2017 11:36:54 +1000
Subject: Two variable dictionary comprehension
In-Reply-To: <001701d2ac19$45fbdea0$27b23dae@sambora>
References: <001701d2ac19$45fbdea0$27b23dae@sambora>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmpdtJbVVHRuU8oAw1DbEJ_uQNs9CYy-PjbOkNTS5esdoA@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Apr 3, 2017 at 11:26 AM, Deborah Swanson
<python at deborahswanson.net> wrote:
> It seems like this should be easy to rewrite as a dict comprehension:
>
>     records_idx = {}
>     for idx, label in enumerate(records[0]):
>         records_idx[label] = idx
>
> Maybe I'm having another "dumb day", or maybe I've just been struggling
> with this (larger) problem for too long, but eveything I try to get an
> equivalent dict comprehension for the 3 lines above is not working.

Should be this:

records_idx = {label: idx for idx, label in enumerate(records[0])}

That's a direct translation of your code.

ChrisA


From ben+python at benfinney.id.au  Sun Apr  2 21:37:45 2017
From: ben+python at benfinney.id.au (Ben Finney)
Date: Mon, 03 Apr 2017 11:37:45 +1000
Subject: Two variable dictionary comprehension
References: <001701d2ac19$45fbdea0$27b23dae@sambora>
Message-ID: <85r31ae0eu.fsf@benfinney.id.au>

"Deborah Swanson" <python at deborahswanson.net> writes:

> It seems like this should be easy to rewrite as a dict comprehension:
>
>     records_idx = {}
>     for idx, label in enumerate(records[0]):
>         records_idx[label] = idx

How about this::

    records_idx = {
        label: idx
        for (idx, label) in enumerate(collection_of_labels)
        }

You may have tripped on the ambiguity of the comma in its surrounding
context. I always prefer to put parens around the items I intend to be
comma-separated, to remove that ambiguity.

-- 
 \        ?[It's] best to confuse only one issue at a time.? ?Brian W. |
  `\  Kernighan, Dennis M. Ritchie, _The C programming language_, 1988 |
_o__)                                                                  |
Ben Finney



From r.bryan.smith at gmail.com  Sun Apr  2 21:46:07 2017
From: r.bryan.smith at gmail.com (R. Bryan Smith)
Date: Sun, 2 Apr 2017 18:46:07 -0700
Subject: Traversal help
Message-ID: <DDE0B0EC-6879-410A-8D76-E17DFE10DE84@gmail.com>

Hello,

I am working with Python 3.6.  I?ve been trying to figure out a solution to my question for about 40 hrs with no success and hundreds of failed attempts.  Essentially, I have bitten off way more than I can chew with processing this file.  Most of what follows, is my attempt to inform as best I can figure.

I have a JSONL (new line) file that I downloaded using requests and the following code: 
with open(fname, 'wb') as fd:
    for chunk in r.iter_content(chunk_size=1024):
        fd.write(chunk)

The file was in gzip format (the encoding on the API says - UTF-8) to a windows 8 (it?s current, but 8) machine.
These files are rather large, maybe around 4GB.
I used the ?shebang' for ?UTF-8? at the top of my Python program: # -*- encoding: utf-8 -*-

After I save the file, I read it using this:
def read_json(path):
    '''Turns a normal json LINES (cr) file into an array of objects'''
    temp_array = []
    f = codecs.open(path, 'r', 'utf-8', ?backslashreplace')
    for line in f:
        record = json.loads(line.strip('\n|\r'))
        temp_array.append(record)
    return temp_array

I am working on a Linux server to partitioning the List returned above, there are three linked levels of detail (A, B, C) that can exist in any collection within the JSON and each Collection can contain wildly varying and/or repeating fields.  The data contained within is scraped from websites all over the world.  I wanted to ?traverse' the file structure and found an algorithm that I think will work:

def traverser(obj, path=None, callback=None):
    if path is None:
        path = []
        
    if isinstance(obj, dict):
        value = {k: traverser(v, path+[k], callback)
                 for k, v in obj.items()}
    elif isinstance(obj, list):
        value = [traverser(elem, path+[[]], callback)
                 for elem in obj]
    else:
        value = obj
    
    if callback is None:
        return value
    else:
        return callback(path, value)

The only problem and the subsequent question that follows is:  I have yet to successfully decode / How do I then ?collect? each of these objects while I am traversing the JSON New Line Collection into some sort of container (handling encoding errors) so that I can then write to a csv file (w/ ?utf-8? and won?t error out when I try to import it into a IBM ?utf-8? encoded DB)?  Actually, after that, I would like to learn how to grab a specific element, if present in each Collection, whenever I need it, as well - but, that can wait.

I?ve tried using the JSON module on the JSONL file, but the structure is really complicated and changing with lot?s of different control and spacing characters, in addition to some odd (potentially non-unicode characters).  Here?s the schema: http://json-schema.org/fraft-04/schema# <http://json-schema.org/fraft-04/schema#> 

I?m not a programmer, but I am learning through assimilation.  Any help is greatly appreciated.  Even if it?s pointing me to documentation that can help me learn what to consider and lead me to what to do.  

Thank you,
R. Smith



From python at deborahswanson.net  Sun Apr  2 22:31:23 2017
From: python at deborahswanson.net (Deborah Swanson)
Date: Sun, 2 Apr 2017 19:31:23 -0700
Subject: Two variable dictionary comprehension
In-Reply-To: <CAPTjJmpdtJbVVHRuU8oAw1DbEJ_uQNs9CYy-PjbOkNTS5esdoA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <001901d2ac22$6326fa10$27b23dae@sambora>

Chris Angelico wrote, on April 02, 2017 6:37 PM
> 
> On Mon, Apr 3, 2017 at 11:26 AM, Deborah Swanson 
> <python at deborahswanson.net> wrote:
> > It seems like this should be easy to rewrite as a dict 
> comprehension:
> >
> >     records_idx = {}
> >     for idx, label in enumerate(records[0]):
> >         records_idx[label] = idx
> >
> > Maybe I'm having another "dumb day", or maybe I've just been 
> > struggling with this (larger) problem for too long, but eveything I 
> > try to get an equivalent dict comprehension for the 3 lines above is

> > not working.
> 
> Should be this:
> 
> records_idx = {label: idx for idx, label in enumerate(records[0])}
> 
> That's a direct translation of your code.
> 
> ChrisA

Well, wouldncha know it, I never tried using a colon. That's what I get
for just trying to guess.

Thanks Chris

Deborah



From python at deborahswanson.net  Sun Apr  2 22:34:49 2017
From: python at deborahswanson.net (Deborah Swanson)
Date: Sun, 2 Apr 2017 19:34:49 -0700
Subject: Two variable dictionary comprehension
In-Reply-To: <85r31ae0eu.fsf@benfinney.id.au>
Message-ID: <001a01d2ac22$ddeda410$27b23dae@sambora>

Ben Finney wrote, on April 02, 2017 6:38 PM
> 
> "Deborah Swanson" <python at deborahswanson.net> writes:
> 
> > It seems like this should be easy to rewrite as a dict 
> comprehension:
> >
> >     records_idx = {}
> >     for idx, label in enumerate(records[0]):
> >         records_idx[label] = idx
> 
> How about this::
> 
>     records_idx = {
>         label: idx
>         for (idx, label) in enumerate(collection_of_labels)
>         }
> 
> You may have tripped on the ambiguity of the comma in its 
> surrounding context. I always prefer to put parens around the 
> items I intend to be comma-separated, to remove that ambiguity.
> 
> -- 
>  \        "[It's] best to confuse only one issue at a time." 
> -Brian W. |
>   `\  Kernighan, Dennis M. Ritchie, _The C programming 
> language_, 1988 |
> _o__)                                                         
>          |
> Ben Finney

That's a neat way to think about the problem. Me, I was guessing all the
way, and pleasantly surprised when the 3-statement concoction I came up
with worked.

Thanks Ben!

Deborah



From ben+python at benfinney.id.au  Sun Apr  2 22:41:18 2017
From: ben+python at benfinney.id.au (Ben Finney)
Date: Mon, 03 Apr 2017 12:41:18 +1000
Subject: Two variable dictionary comprehension
References: <CAPTjJmpdtJbVVHRuU8oAw1DbEJ_uQNs9CYy-PjbOkNTS5esdoA@mail.gmail.com>
 <001901d2ac22$6326fa10$27b23dae@sambora>
Message-ID: <85mvbydxgx.fsf@benfinney.id.au>

"Deborah Swanson" <python at deborahswanson.net> writes:

> Chris Angelico wrote, on April 02, 2017 6:37 PM
> > 
> > On Mon, Apr 3, 2017 at 11:26 AM, Deborah Swanson 
> > > Maybe I'm having another "dumb day" [?]
>
> Well, wouldncha know it, I never tried using a colon. That's what I
> get for just trying to guess.

Yes, guessing *is* dumb when the reference documentation is available
<URL:https://docs.python.org/3/reference/expressions.html#displays-for-lists-sets-and-dictionaries>.
I was sure you'd have been reading the manual before guessing, but I'll
know better in future :-)

-- 
 \       ?A computer once beat me at chess, but it was no match for me |
  `\                                     at kick boxing.? ?Emo Philips |
_o__)                                                                  |
Ben Finney



From python-oren at ben-kiki.org  Mon Apr  3 00:49:50 2017
From: python-oren at ben-kiki.org (Oren Ben-Kiki)
Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2017 07:49:50 +0300
Subject: Behavior of auto in Enum and Flag.
Message-ID: <CADJiDhuL0SWjjiQNG-Ftk+z95r92h3410T_T3iHqaZ37Pi3Rpg@mail.gmail.com>

The current behavior of `auto` is to pick a value which is one plus the
previous value.

It would probably be better if `auto` instead picked a value that is not
used by any named member (either the minimal unused value, or the minimal
higher than the previous value). That is, in this simple case:

    class MyEnum(Enum):
        FOO = 1
        BAR = auto()
        BAZ = 2

It would be far better for BAR to get the value 3 rather than today's value
2.

In the less simple case of:

    class MyEnum(Enum):
        FOO = 2
        BAR = auto()
        BAZ = 3

Then BAR could be either 1 or 4 - IMO, 1 would be better, but 4 works as
well.

After all, `auto` is supposed to be used when:

"If the exact value is unimportant you may use auto instances and an
appropriate value will be chosen for you."

Choosing a value that conflicts with BAZ in above cases doesn't seem
"appropriate" for a value that is "unimportant".

The docs also state "Care must be taken if you mix auto with other values."
- fair enough. But:

First, why require "care" if the code can take care of the issue for us?

Second, the docs don't go into further detail about what exactly to avoid.
In particular, the docs do not state that the automatic value will only
take into account the previous values, and will ignore following values.

However, this restriction is baked into the current implementation:
It is not possible to just override `_generate_next_value_` to skip past
named values which were not seen yet, because the implementation only
passes it the list of previous values.

I propose that:

1. The documentation will be more explicit about the way `auto` behaves in
the presence of following values.

2. The default behavior of `auto` would avoid generating a conflict with
following values.

3. Whether `auto` chooses (A) the minimal unused value higher than the
previous value, or (B) the minimal overall unused value, or (C) some other
strategy, would depend on the specific implementation.

3. To allow for this, the implementation will include a
`_generate_auto_value_` which will take both the list of previous ("last")
values (including auto values) and also a second list of the following
("next") values (excluding auto values).

4. If the class implements `_generate_next_value_`, then
`_generate_auto_value_` will invoke `_generate_next_value_` with the
concatenation of both lists (following values first, preceding values
second), to maximize compatibility with existing code.

Thanks,

Oren Ben-Kiki


From python at deborahswanson.net  Mon Apr  3 01:06:53 2017
From: python at deborahswanson.net (Deborah Swanson)
Date: Sun, 2 Apr 2017 22:06:53 -0700
Subject: Two variable dictionary comprehension
In-Reply-To: <85mvbydxgx.fsf@benfinney.id.au>
Message-ID: <001d01d2ac38$1c99c030$27b23dae@sambora>

Ben Finney wrote. on April 02, 2017 7:41 PM
> 
> "Deborah Swanson" <python at deborahswanson.net> writes:
> 
> > Chris Angelico wrote, on April 02, 2017 6:37 PM
> > > 
> > > On Mon, Apr 3, 2017 at 11:26 AM, Deborah Swanson
> > > > Maybe I'm having another "dumb day" [.]
> >
> > Well, wouldncha know it, I never tried using a colon. That's what I 
> > get for just trying to guess.
> 
> Yes, guessing *is* dumb when the reference documentation is 
> available 
> <URL:https://docs.python.org/3/reference/expressions.html#disp
> lays-for-lists-sets-and-dictionaries>.
> I was sure you'd have been reading the manual before 
> guessing, but I'll know better in future :-)
> 
> -- 
>  \       "A computer once beat me at chess, but it was no 
> match for me |
>   `\                                     at kick boxing." 
> -Emo Philips |
> _o__)                                                         
>          |
> Ben Finney
> 

Oh, come on. That's a fairly obscure citation in the docs, one that
would take a good deal of experience and time reading through them to
know was there, experience and years with Python that I don't have. But
you knew that ... ;)

Deborah



From rosuav at gmail.com  Mon Apr  3 01:38:20 2017
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2017 15:38:20 +1000
Subject: Behavior of auto in Enum and Flag.
In-Reply-To: <CADJiDhuL0SWjjiQNG-Ftk+z95r92h3410T_T3iHqaZ37Pi3Rpg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CADJiDhuL0SWjjiQNG-Ftk+z95r92h3410T_T3iHqaZ37Pi3Rpg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmrbLEdCA+DNkbj5e--CxWaa=YSfpwOXhFoc6UKBfGyaXg@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Apr 3, 2017 at 2:49 PM, Oren Ben-Kiki <python-oren at ben-kiki.org> wrote:
> "If the exact value is unimportant you may use auto instances and an
> appropriate value will be chosen for you."
>
> Choosing a value that conflicts with BAZ in above cases doesn't seem
> "appropriate" for a value that is "unimportant".
>
> The docs also state "Care must be taken if you mix auto with other values."
> - fair enough. But:
>
> First, why require "care" if the code can take care of the issue for us?
>
> Second, the docs don't go into further detail about what exactly to avoid.
> In particular, the docs do not state that the automatic value will only
> take into account the previous values, and will ignore following values.

Sounds to me like the current behaviour is compliant with what the
docs say, and as such, I would be disinclined to change the code.
Perhaps a documentation clarification would suffice?

"""Care must be taken if you mix auto with other values. In
particular, using auto() prior to explicitly-set values may result in
conflicts."""

ChrisA


From python-oren at ben-kiki.org  Mon Apr  3 02:10:25 2017
From: python-oren at ben-kiki.org (Oren Ben-Kiki)
Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2017 09:10:25 +0300
Subject: Behavior of auto in Enum and Flag.
In-Reply-To: <CAPTjJmrbLEdCA+DNkbj5e--CxWaa=YSfpwOXhFoc6UKBfGyaXg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CADJiDhuL0SWjjiQNG-Ftk+z95r92h3410T_T3iHqaZ37Pi3Rpg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPTjJmrbLEdCA+DNkbj5e--CxWaa=YSfpwOXhFoc6UKBfGyaXg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CADJiDhvkX9x4q+uHUkr05FSQOEk9OKi6f7BSyya5S-g2A9mC=A@mail.gmail.com>

While "the current behaviour is compliant with what the docs say" is true,
saying "as such, I would be disinclined to change the code" misses the
point.

The current documentation allows for multiple behaviors. The current
implementation has an chosen to add an arbitrary undocumented restriction
on the behavior, which has a usability issue. Even worse, for no clear
reason, the current implementation forces _all_ implementations to suffer
from the same usability issue.

The proposed behavior is _also_ compliant with the current documentation,
and does not suffer from this usability issue. The proposed implementation
is compatible with existing code bases, and allows for "any" other
implementation to avoid this issue.

That is, I think that instead of enshrining the current implementation's
undocumented and arbitrary restriction, by explicitly adding it to the
documentation, we should instead remove this arbitrary restriction from the
implementation, and only modify the documentation to clarify this
restriction is gone.

Oren.

On Mon, Apr 3, 2017 at 8:38 AM, Chris Angelico <rosuav at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Mon, Apr 3, 2017 at 2:49 PM, Oren Ben-Kiki <python-oren at ben-kiki.org>
> wrote:
> > "If the exact value is unimportant you may use auto instances and an
> > appropriate value will be chosen for you."
> >
> > Choosing a value that conflicts with BAZ in above cases doesn't seem
> > "appropriate" for a value that is "unimportant".
> >
> > The docs also state "Care must be taken if you mix auto with other
> values."
> > - fair enough. But:
> >
> > First, why require "care" if the code can take care of the issue for us?
> >
> > Second, the docs don't go into further detail about what exactly to
> avoid.
> > In particular, the docs do not state that the automatic value will only
> > take into account the previous values, and will ignore following values.
>
> Sounds to me like the current behaviour is compliant with what the
> docs say, and as such, I would be disinclined to change the code.
> Perhaps a documentation clarification would suffice?
>
> """Care must be taken if you mix auto with other values. In
> particular, using auto() prior to explicitly-set values may result in
> conflicts."""
>
> ChrisA
> --
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
>


From dieter at handshake.de  Mon Apr  3 02:35:01 2017
From: dieter at handshake.de (dieter)
Date: Mon, 03 Apr 2017 08:35:01 +0200
Subject: Thread within for loop
References: <CAA4=HD4uOoA6-yTRWxBoYYmVJZjPORG6LAPtNXPqRSmUwshj8w@mail.gmail.com>
 <87y3vky3k3.fsf@handshake.de>
 <CAA4=HD68UZavGtsgtst+8uGx1n--EbdcSV1RC3LftEOxS1kvVA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <8737dqov6y.fsf@handshake.de>

Iranna Mathapati <iranna.gani28 at gmail.com> writes:
> How to fix it and now i got below error for same script

Fixing "timeout" problems is (usually) not a Python question.

A "timeout" can have various reasons:

 * you make something fundamentally wrong - i.e. try to connect
   to something which is inaccessible (e.g. by "firewall" rules)

   You must check whether this is the case, e.g. by trying
   to access the server with other means as "pexpect".

 * the remote operation takes an extraordinary amount of time.

   You may need to adjust the "timeout" configuration used
   by the Python access library ("pexpect" in your case).
   Look at the documentation, to find out whether and how this
   is supported.

 * ...


> *runtimeerror threads can only be started once then*

Apparently, you try to start the same thread twice.
Create different "Thread" instances, instead.


> On Sat, Apr 1, 2017 at 1:15 PM, dieter <dieter at handshake.de> wrote:
>
>> Iranna Mathapati <iranna.gani28 at gmail.com> writes:
>> > ...
>> > Exception in thread Thread-5:
>> > Traceback (most recent call last):
>> > ...
>> >   File
>> > "/auto/n3k-qa/CODC/ianandan/pyATS2.7/lib/python2.7/site-
>> packages/pexpect/__init__.py",
>> > line 1466, in expect_list
>> >     timeout, searchwindowsize)
>> >   File
>> > "/auto/n3k-qa/CODC/ianandan/pyATS2.7/lib/python2.7/site-
>> packages/pexpect/__init__.py",
>> > line 1568, in expect_loop
>> >     raise TIMEOUT(str(err) + '\n' + str(self))
>> > TIMEOUT: Timeout exceeded.
>>
>> "Timeout" means that the "pexpect" partner did not respond sufficiently
>> fast.
>>
>> --
>> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
>>



From greg.ewing at canterbury.ac.nz  Mon Apr  3 02:35:18 2017
From: greg.ewing at canterbury.ac.nz (Gregory Ewing)
Date: Mon, 03 Apr 2017 18:35:18 +1200
Subject: Two variable dictionary comprehension
In-Reply-To: <mailman.67.1491195995.2961.python-list@python.org>
References: <85mvbydxgx.fsf@benfinney.id.au>
 <001d01d2ac38$1c99c030$27b23dae@sambora>
 <mailman.67.1491195995.2961.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <eke8p8Fo2uqU1@mid.individual.net>

Deborah Swanson wrote:

> Oh, come on. That's a fairly obscure citation in the docs, one that
> would take a good deal of experience and time reading through them to
> know was there,

You seemed to know that there was something called a "dict
comprehension". Googling for "python 3 dict comprehension"
gives me a link to an example of one in the docs as the
second result.

The first result is a page in Dive Into Python containing
a section on dict comprehensions.

Part of being a good programmer is knowing how to track
down the information you need!

Having said that, the index of the Python docs could be
improved a bit in this area -- currently it only mentions
"list" under "comprehension" (although the page it leads
to discusses the other types as well).

-- 
Greg


From ethan at stoneleaf.us  Mon Apr  3 04:03:05 2017
From: ethan at stoneleaf.us (Ethan Furman)
Date: Mon, 03 Apr 2017 01:03:05 -0700
Subject: Behavior of auto in Enum and Flag.
In-Reply-To: <CADJiDhuL0SWjjiQNG-Ftk+z95r92h3410T_T3iHqaZ37Pi3Rpg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CADJiDhuL0SWjjiQNG-Ftk+z95r92h3410T_T3iHqaZ37Pi3Rpg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <58E201B9.2020907@stoneleaf.us>

On 04/02/2017 09:49 PM, Oren Ben-Kiki wrote:

> The current behavior of `auto` is to pick a value which is one plus the
> previous value.

Starting with 1 if no previous value exists.

> It would probably be better if `auto` instead picked a value that is not
> used by any named member (either the minimal unused value, or the minimal
> higher than the previous value). That is, in this simple case:
>
>      class MyEnum(Enum):
>          FOO = 1
>          BAR = auto()
>          BAZ = 2
>
> It would be far better for BAR to get the value 3 rather than today's value
> 2.

Possibly.

> After all, `auto` is supposed to be used when:
>
> "If the exact value is unimportant you may use auto instances and an
> appropriate value will be chosen for you."
>
> Choosing a value that conflicts with BAZ in above cases doesn't seem
> "appropriate" for a value that is "unimportant".

MyEnum.BAR exists, and works.  It just happens to be the same as MyEnum.BAZ -- which did not exist when the value for 
BAR was chosen.

> The docs also state "Care must be taken if you mix auto with other values."
> - fair enough. But:
>
> First, why require "care" if the code can take care of the issue for us?
>
> Second, the docs don't go into further detail about what exactly to avoid.
> In particular, the docs do not state that the automatic value will only
> take into account the previous values, and will ignore following values.

Python code is executed top-down.  First FOO, then BAR, then BAZ.  It is not saved up and executed later in random 
order.  Or, put another way, the value was appropriate when it was chosen -- it is not the fault of auto() that the user 
chose a conflicting value (hence why care should be taken).

> However, this restriction is baked into the current implementation:
> It is not possible to just override `_generate_next_value_` to skip past
> named values which were not seen yet, because the implementation only
> passes it the list of previous values.

In other words, the currently existing values, because the future values don't exist yet.

> I propose that:
>
> 1. The documentation will be more explicit about the way `auto` behaves in
> the presence of following values.

I can do that.

> 2. The default behavior of `auto` would avoid generating a conflict with
> following values.

I could do that, but I'm not convinced it's necessary, plus there would be backwards compatibility constraints at this 
point.

> 3. Whether `auto` chooses (A) the minimal unused value higher than the
> previous value, or (B) the minimal overall unused value, or (C) some other
> strategy, would depend on the specific implementation.

This might work for you (untested):

def _generate_next_value_(name, start, count, previous_values):
     if not count:
         return start or 1
     previous_values.sort()
     last_value = previous_values[-1]
     if last_value < 1000:
         return 1001
     else:
         return last_value + 1

> 3. To allow for this, the implementation will include a
> `_generate_auto_value_` which will take both the list of previous ("last")
> values (including auto values) and also a second list of the following
> ("next") values (excluding auto values).

No, I'm not interested in doing that.  I currently have that kind of code in aenum[1] for 2.7 compatibility, and it's a 
nightmare to maintain.

--
~Ethan~


[1] https://pypi.python.org/pypi/aenum
     Advanced Enumerations
     NamedConstants
     NamedTuple (metaclass based namedtuple -- no code eval)
     plus a bunch of other goodies


From cl at isbd.net  Mon Apr  3 04:49:32 2017
From: cl at isbd.net (Chris Green)
Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2017 09:49:32 +0100
Subject: Two variable dictionary comprehension
References: <85mvbydxgx.fsf@benfinney.id.au>
 <001d01d2ac38$1c99c030$27b23dae@sambora>
 <mailman.67.1491195995.2961.python-list@python.org>
 <eke8p8Fo2uqU1@mid.individual.net>
Message-ID: <ste9rd-q6f.ln1@esprimo.zbmc.eu>

Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing at canterbury.ac.nz> wrote:
> 
> Part of being a good programmer is knowing how to track
> down the information you need!
> 
A very *large* part of it!  :-)


> Having said that, the index of the Python docs could be
> improved a bit in this area -- currently it only mentions
> "list" under "comprehension" (although the page it leads
> to discusses the other types as well).
> 
It's an area I tend to have trouble with, there are rather more
'lists' in Python than I find easy to remember all about.  I'm sure if
I was a full-time programmer in Python (I used to earn my living
writing C) I'd have it all at my finger tips.  Hoever, given that I'm
just a 'recreational' programmer in Python, and I'm getting old and
forgetful, I need something easy to refer to.

-- 
Chris Green
?


From malte.forkel at berlin.de  Mon Apr  3 04:51:49 2017
From: malte.forkel at berlin.de (Malte Forkel)
Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2017 10:51:49 +0200
Subject: Best practices interfacing to device with Python's asyncio and
 pyserial-asyncio
Message-ID: <obt2ev$tg9$1@blaine.gmane.org>

Hello,

I have written a Python package to read from and write to a serial
device that uses short telegrams to communicate with sensors and
actuators. My classes include one to model the transceiver (it
establishes the serial connection using
serial.aio.create_serial_connection) and one for the telegram protocol
based on asyncio.Protocol. I also have a bunch of classes for the
different types of telegrams and devices.

While this all works, the device model and the protocol don't look very
pythonic to me. Are there any tutorials or examples demonstrating best
practices of how to do something like this?

Thanks,
Malte



From python-oren at ben-kiki.org  Mon Apr  3 04:53:51 2017
From: python-oren at ben-kiki.org (Oren Ben-Kiki)
Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2017 11:53:51 +0300
Subject: Behavior of auto in Enum and Flag.
In-Reply-To: <58E201B9.2020907@stoneleaf.us>
References: <CADJiDhuL0SWjjiQNG-Ftk+z95r92h3410T_T3iHqaZ37Pi3Rpg@mail.gmail.com>
 <58E201B9.2020907@stoneleaf.us>
Message-ID: <CADJiDhs46=DXEns2-aVQArmLwxf18KfvRiXhprMTrBALYMM1GA@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Apr 3, 2017 at 11:03 AM, Ethan Furman <ethan at stoneleaf.us> wrote:

> Python code is executed top-down.  First FOO, then BAR, then BAZ.  It is
> not saved up and executed later in random order.  Or, put another way, the
> value was appropriate when it was chosen -- it is not the fault of auto()
> that the user chose a conflicting value (hence why care should be taken).


This is not to say that there's no possible workaround for this - the code
could pretty easily defer invocation of _generate_next_macro_ until after
the whole class was seen. It would still happen in order (since members are
an ordered dictionary these days).

So it is a matter of conflicting values - what would be more "Pythonic":
treating auto as executed immediately, or avoiding conflicts between auto
and explicit values.


> 1. The documentation will be more explicit about the way `auto` behaves in
> the presence of following value



> I can do that.
>

Barring changing the way auto works, that would be best ("explicit is
better than implicit" and all that ;-)


> 2. The default behavior of `auto` would avoid generating a conflict with
>> following values.
>>
>
> I could do that, but I'm not convinced it's necessary, plus there would be
> backwards compatibility constraints at this point.


"Necessity" depends on the judgement call above.

As for backward compatibility, the docs are pretty clear about "use auto
when you don't care about the value"... and Enum is pretty new, so there's
not _that_ much code that relies on "implementation specific" details.

*If* backward compatibility is an issue here, then the docs might as well
specify "previous value plus 1, or 1 if this is the first value" as the
"standard" behavior, and be done.

This has the advantage of being deterministic and explicit, so people would
be justified in relying on it. It would still have to be accompanied by
saying "auto() can only consider previous values, not following ones".


> This might work for you (untested):
>
> def _generate_next_value_(name, start, count, previous_values):
>     if not count:
>         return start or 1
>     previous_values.sort()
>     last_value = previous_values[-1]
>     if last_value < 1000:
>         return 1001
>     else:
>         return last_value + 1


This assumes no following enum values have values > 1000 (or some
predetermined constant), which doesn't work in my particular case, or in
the general case. But yes, this might solve the problem for some people.


> 3. To allow for this, the implementation will include a
>> `_generate_auto_value_` which will take both the list of previous ("last")
>> values (including auto values) and also a second list of the following
>> ("next") values (excluding auto values).
>>
>
> No, I'm not interested in doing that.  I currently have that kind of code
> in aenum[1] for 2.7 compatibility, and it's a nightmare to maintain.
>

Understood. Another alternative would be to have something like
_generate_next_value_ex_ with the additional argument (similar to
__reduce_ex__), which isn't ideal either.

Assuming you buy into my "necessity" claim, that is...

Thanks,

Oren.


From info at egenix.com  Mon Apr  3 05:01:26 2017
From: info at egenix.com (eGenix Team: M.-A. Lemburg)
Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2017 11:01:26 +0200
Subject: =?UTF-8?Q?ANN:_Python_Meeting_D=c3=bcsseldorf_-_05.04.2017?=
Message-ID: <01117355-2c8d-c6cb-b1e6-88dba669a4a1@egenix.com>

[This announcement is in German since it targets a local user group
 meeting in D?sseldorf, Germany]

________________________________________________________________________

ANK?NDIGUNG

                      Python Meeting D?sseldorf

                           http://pyddf.de/

        Ein Treffen von Python Enthusiasten und Interessierten
                     in ungezwungener Atmosph?re.

                   Mittwoch, 05.04.2017, 18:00 Uhr
           Raum 1, 2.OG im B?rgerhaus Stadtteilzentrum Bilk
         D?sseldorfer Arcaden, Bachstr. 145, 40217 D?sseldorf

Diese Nachricht ist auch online verf?gbar:
http://www.egenix.com/company/news/Python-Meeting-Duesseldorf-2017-04-05
________________________________________________________________________

NEUIGKEITEN

 * Bereits angemeldete Vortr?ge:

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   Andr? Aulich
        "Python-Webanwendungen als native Desktop-Apps verteilen"

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   Weitere Vortr?ge k?nnen gerne noch angemeldet werden: info at pyddf.de

 * Startzeit und Ort:

   Wir treffen uns um 18:00 Uhr im B?rgerhaus in den D?sseldorfer
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   Das B?rgerhaus teilt sich den Eingang mit dem Schwimmbad und
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   Google Street View: http://bit.ly/11sCfiw

________________________________________________________________________

EINLEITUNG

Das Python Meeting D?sseldorf ist eine regelm??ige Veranstaltung in
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 * http://pyddf.de/

Einen guten ?berblick ?ber die Vortr?ge bietet unser YouTube-Kanal,
auf dem wir die Vortr?ge nach den Meetings ver?ffentlichen:

 * http://www.youtube.com/pyddf/

Veranstaltet wird das Meeting von der eGenix.com GmbH, Langenfeld,
in Zusammenarbeit mit Clark Consulting & Research, D?sseldorf:

 * http://www.egenix.com/
 * http://www.clark-consulting.eu/

________________________________________________________________________

PROGRAMM

Das Python Meeting D?sseldorf nutzt eine Mischung aus (Lightning)
Talks und offener Diskussion.

Vortr?ge k?nnen vorher angemeldet werden, oder auch spontan w?hrend
des Treffens eingebracht werden. Ein Beamer mit XGA Aufl?sung
steht zur Verf?gung.

(Lightning) Talk Anmeldung bitte formlos per EMail an info at pyddf.de

________________________________________________________________________

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Das Python Meeting D?sseldorf wird von Python Nutzern f?r Python
Nutzer veranstaltet. Um die Kosten zumindest teilweise zu
refinanzieren, bitten wir die Teilnehmer um einen Beitrag in H?he von
EUR 10,00 inkl. 19% Mwst, Sch?ler und Studenten zahlen EUR 5,00
inkl. 19% Mwst.

Wir m?chten alle Teilnehmer bitten, den Betrag in bar mitzubringen.

________________________________________________________________________

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Da wir nur f?r ca. 20 Personen Sitzpl?tze haben, m?chten wir
bitten, sich per EMail anzumelden. Damit wird keine Verpflichtung
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Meeting Anmeldung bitte formlos per EMail an info at pyddf.de

________________________________________________________________________

WEITERE INFORMATIONEN

Weitere Informationen finden Sie auf der Webseite des Meetings:

    http://pyddf.de/

Mit freundlichen Gr??en,
-- 
Marc-Andre Lemburg
eGenix.com

Professional Python Services directly from the Experts (#1, Apr 03 2017)
>>> Python Projects, Coaching and Consulting ...  http://www.egenix.com/
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From p.f.moore at gmail.com  Mon Apr  3 05:08:43 2017
From: p.f.moore at gmail.com (Paul Moore)
Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2017 02:08:43 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: SocketServer and Ctrl-C on Windows
Message-ID: <088d6b0f-9654-43a0-9536-b4a551209a58@googlegroups.com>

I know I've seen this before, but for the life of me I can't find any reference.

If I write a simple web server using wsgiref, something like

    from wsgiref.simple_server import make_server, demo_app

    with make_server('', 8000, demo_app) as httpd:
        print("Serving HTTP on port 8000...")

        # Respond to requests until process is killed
        httpd.serve_forever()

(from the docs), then run it on Windows, the server won't respond to Ctrl-C. I know I've seen a solution that traps ctrl-C and shuts the server down gracefully, but I can't for the life of me remember how to do it.

Can anyone point me to a way to do this? It's not crucial - I can use Ctrl-Break to stop the server - but I'd like an option for a clean shutdown if possible.

Thanks,
Paul


From ammammata at tiscalinet.it  Mon Apr  3 05:39:19 2017
From: ammammata at tiscalinet.it (Ammammata)
Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2017 09:39:19 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: Spam user
References: <058a9744-44bf-4e6b-ae1d-28e1e348e60b@googlegroups.com>
 <XnsA7497B5475A58ammammatatiscalineti@148.251.67.112>
 <d0e9d036-2924-4c2c-99b1-0d8cb02b93df@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <XnsA74C769257BDEammammatatiscalineti@127.0.0.1>

Il giorno Sat 01 Apr 2017 09:15:41p, *Mario R. Osorio* ha inviato su
comp.lang.python il messaggio
news:d0e9d036-2924-4c2c-99b1-0d8cb02b93df at googlegroups.com. Vediamo cosa
ha scritto: 

> I'm not in the business of starting an argument about best/worse
> newsreader, Ammammata, but could you please recommend a few? 
> 

not my intention, I just think a dedicated news *program* is better than 
the google *web interface* and gives you more filter tools

here I'm using xnews, but I have also mesnews configured (for stats) as 
well as pan for windows (for other uses)
at home I use pan (on linux)
on the tablet I use a chinese piece of software, can't remember the name 
sorry, but it's in the playstore

-- 
/-\ /\/\ /\/\ /-\ /\/\ /\/\ /-\ T /-\
-=- -=- -=- -=- -=- -=- -=- -=- - -=-
>>>>>  http://www.bb2002.it :)  <<<<<
........... [ al lavoro ] ...........


From eryksun at gmail.com  Mon Apr  3 08:22:09 2017
From: eryksun at gmail.com (eryk sun)
Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2017 12:22:09 +0000
Subject: SocketServer and Ctrl-C on Windows
In-Reply-To: <088d6b0f-9654-43a0-9536-b4a551209a58@googlegroups.com>
References: <088d6b0f-9654-43a0-9536-b4a551209a58@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <CACL+1auE5PutkFbyQhE33T1DgTwetZRrGYSbpOdv3O+DbvKckA@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Apr 3, 2017 at 9:08 AM, Paul  Moore <p.f.moore at gmail.com> wrote:
> I know I've seen this before, but for the life of me I can't find any reference.
>
> If I write a simple web server using wsgiref, something like
>
>     from wsgiref.simple_server import make_server, demo_app
>
>     with make_server('', 8000, demo_app) as httpd:
>         print("Serving HTTP on port 8000...")
>
>         # Respond to requests until process is killed
>         httpd.serve_forever()
>
> (from the docs), then run it on Windows, the server won't respond to Ctrl-C. I
> know I've seen a solution that traps ctrl-C and shuts the server down gracefully,
> but I can't for the life of me remember how to do it.
>
> Can anyone point me to a way to do this? It's not crucial - I can use Ctrl-Break to
> stop the server - but I'd like an option for a clean shutdown if possible.

It works for me when run from a command prompt in Windows 10.
serve_forever() uses select() with a timeout of 0.5s, so it doesn't
block the main thread.


From p.f.moore at gmail.com  Mon Apr  3 08:34:56 2017
From: p.f.moore at gmail.com (Paul Moore)
Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2017 05:34:56 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: SocketServer and Ctrl-C on Windows
In-Reply-To: <mailman.76.1491222178.2961.python-list@python.org>
References: <088d6b0f-9654-43a0-9536-b4a551209a58@googlegroups.com>
 <CACL+1auE5PutkFbyQhE33T1DgTwetZRrGYSbpOdv3O+DbvKckA@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.76.1491222178.2961.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <0874481d-67ca-4b5f-986a-c92d04a88d9b@googlegroups.com>

On Monday, 3 April 2017 13:23:11 UTC+1, eryk sun  wrote:
> It works for me when run from a command prompt in Windows 10.
> serve_forever() uses select() with a timeout of 0.5s, so it doesn't
> block the main thread.

Odd. For me, it doesn't work (Windows 7, but I can't see why that would affect it).

Having investigated a bit more, it seems like if I just start the server then hit Ctrl-C it shuts down fine. But if I start the server, then I navigate to http://localhost:8000 in my browser, and *then* hit Ctrl-C, the server just continues running.

So I don't know if it's something to do with having handled a request? I have a vague recollection that it's to do with threading - maybe the exception being delivered to the wrong thread? Or a non-daemon thread being left active?

Thanks for checking for me, though.
Paul


From lyngwyst at gmail.com  Mon Apr  3 08:40:37 2017
From: lyngwyst at gmail.com (Jay Braun)
Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2017 05:40:37 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: "pandas" pronunciation
Message-ID: <fe186d14-11fb-45b3-8acf-ba65645bb5a8@googlegroups.com>

I hear people say it like the plural of "panda", and others as "panduss".  Is there a correct way?

j


From eryksun at gmail.com  Mon Apr  3 08:59:18 2017
From: eryksun at gmail.com (eryk sun)
Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2017 12:59:18 +0000
Subject: SocketServer and Ctrl-C on Windows
In-Reply-To: <0874481d-67ca-4b5f-986a-c92d04a88d9b@googlegroups.com>
References: <088d6b0f-9654-43a0-9536-b4a551209a58@googlegroups.com>
 <CACL+1auE5PutkFbyQhE33T1DgTwetZRrGYSbpOdv3O+DbvKckA@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.76.1491222178.2961.python-list@python.org>
 <0874481d-67ca-4b5f-986a-c92d04a88d9b@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <CACL+1asoZuGk1vhjYBjOSekG9gC-=b0XOEMyk8NTWG3_Ftj9DQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Apr 3, 2017 at 12:34 PM, Paul  Moore <p.f.moore at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Monday, 3 April 2017 13:23:11 UTC+1, eryk sun  wrote:
>> It works for me when run from a command prompt in Windows 10.
>> serve_forever() uses select() with a timeout of 0.5s, so it doesn't
>> block the main thread.
>
> Odd. For me, it doesn't work (Windows 7, but I can't see why that would affect it).
>
> Having investigated a bit more, it seems like if I just start the server then hit Ctrl-C
> it shuts down fine. But if I start the server, then I navigate to http://localhost:8000 in
> my browser, and *then* hit Ctrl-C, the server just continues running.

It should service the request and return to the serve_forever() loop.
Do you see a line logged for each request, like "[IP] - - [date] "GET
..."?


From p.f.moore at gmail.com  Mon Apr  3 09:20:25 2017
From: p.f.moore at gmail.com (Paul Moore)
Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2017 06:20:25 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: SocketServer and Ctrl-C on Windows
In-Reply-To: <mailman.77.1491224407.2961.python-list@python.org>
References: <088d6b0f-9654-43a0-9536-b4a551209a58@googlegroups.com>
 <CACL+1auE5PutkFbyQhE33T1DgTwetZRrGYSbpOdv3O+DbvKckA@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.76.1491222178.2961.python-list@python.org>
 <0874481d-67ca-4b5f-986a-c92d04a88d9b@googlegroups.com>
 <CACL+1asoZuGk1vhjYBjOSekG9gC-=b0XOEMyk8NTWG3_Ftj9DQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.77.1491224407.2961.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <14b1d06a-1ded-4e79-a0a8-525ceb4d7891@googlegroups.com>

On Monday, 3 April 2017 14:00:18 UTC+1, eryk sun  wrote:
> It should service the request and return to the serve_forever() loop.
> Do you see a line logged for each request, like "[IP] - - [date] "GET
> ..."?

Yes, I see that and the page is served.

>py .\example.py
Serving HTTP on port 8000...
127.0.0.1 - - [03/Apr/2017 13:25:34] "GET / HTTP/1.1" 200 5470
127.0.0.1 - - [03/Apr/2017 13:25:34] "GET /favicon.ico HTTP/1.1" 200 5438

But if I press Ctrl-C at this point, nothing happens. Even if I press Ctrl-C multiple times.

Paul


From chololennon at hotmail.com  Mon Apr  3 09:28:12 2017
From: chololennon at hotmail.com (Cholo Lennon)
Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2017 10:28:12 -0300
Subject: Spam user
References: <058a9744-44bf-4e6b-ae1d-28e1e348e60b@googlegroups.com>
 <XnsA7497B5475A58ammammatatiscalineti@148.251.67.112>
 <d0e9d036-2924-4c2c-99b1-0d8cb02b93df@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <obtilb$hsl$1@gioia.aioe.org>

On 01/04/17 16:15, Mario R. Osorio wrote:
> I'm not in the business of starting an argument about best/worse newsreader, Ammammata, but could you please recommend a few?
>

Mozilla Thunderbird works very well. Spam is close to nothing using this 
free nntp server: news.aioe.org

Regards


-- 
Cholo Lennon
Bs.As.
ARG



From kenneth.buckler at gmail.com  Mon Apr  3 09:49:45 2017
From: kenneth.buckler at gmail.com (Kenneth Buckler)
Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2017 09:49:45 -0400
Subject: Obtain Ceritificate Information from Invalid or Self-Signed
 Certificate in Python
Message-ID: <CAKueL6eSh9OxNLz_hvUwM0xNyc770Ax0FtwUe58WnaWS3AOj-Q@mail.gmail.com>

I'm working on a Python 2.7.13 (Win x64) script to verify SSL certificates,
and alert for problems. Specifically, I'm looking to return the date the
cert expires or did expire. However, I'm running into an issue where the
script will return information only if the certificate is valid.

If the certificate is invalid, I receive a CERTIFICATE_VERIFY_FAILED SSL
error. Normally I would simply use a try/catch when the error is raised and
just alert that the cert is invalid, but the issue here is that the I need
the actual date the certificate expired, or in some cases the cert will be
a self-signed cert, which will be acceptable UNLESS the cert is expired.
I'm dealing with an organization that has thousands of certs, so adding
every single self signed cert to the cert store locally won't be an option.

Per https://docs.python.org/2/library/ssl.html I tried to use
conn._https_verify_certificates(enable=False) to disable certificate
validation, but get an error that the attribute _https_verify_certificates
doesn't exist.

Here is my code so far. I'm sure I'm missing something obvious. Surely
Python can pull the SSL certificate without validating it, right?

import socketimport ssl
def ssl_expiry_datetime(hostname):
    ssl_date_fmt = r'%b %d %H:%M:%S %Y %Z'

    context = ssl.create_default_context()
    conn = context.wrap_socket(
        socket.socket(socket.AF_INET),
        server_hostname=hostname,
    )
    # 3 second timeout because Lambda has runtime limitations
    conn.settimeout(3.0)
    #conn._https_verify_certificates(enable=False)
    conn.connect((hostname, 443))
    ssl_info = conn.getpeercert()
    # parse the string from the certificate into a Python datetime object
    return ['notAfter']

myhost = 'www.google.com'
print ssl_expiry_datetime(myhost)

Thanks!

Ken


From mal at europython.eu  Mon Apr  3 09:50:22 2017
From: mal at europython.eu (M.-A. Lemburg)
Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2017 15:50:22 +0200
Subject: EuroPython 2017: Launching early-bird sales tomorrow
Message-ID: <2475e252-cc09-0646-4cf3-c09c1399fb83@europython.eu>

We are starting ticket sales tomorrow and, as is tradition, we have
allocated a number of tickets to be sold at very low rates - in fact
you can save between 40-50% on these early-bird rates, compared to the
regular ticket prices.

     Sales at the early-bird rate will open tomorrow, April 4th,
			    at 10:00 CEST

We will have 200 tickets available at the early-bird rate and they
usually sell out within a few days, so be sure to get yours
quickly. Regular ticket sales will then commence shortly after the
early-bird phase.

Please see our registration page for full details:

    https://ep2017.europython.eu/en/registration/buy-tickets/


Enjoy,
--
EuroPython 2017 Team
http://ep2017.europython.eu/
http://www.europython-society.org/

PS: Please forward or retweet to help us reach all interested parties:
https://twitter.com/europython/status/848894062715437057
Thanks.


From p.f.moore at gmail.com  Mon Apr  3 09:56:21 2017
From: p.f.moore at gmail.com (Paul Moore)
Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2017 06:56:21 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: SocketServer and Ctrl-C on Windows
In-Reply-To: <14b1d06a-1ded-4e79-a0a8-525ceb4d7891@googlegroups.com>
References: <088d6b0f-9654-43a0-9536-b4a551209a58@googlegroups.com>
 <CACL+1auE5PutkFbyQhE33T1DgTwetZRrGYSbpOdv3O+DbvKckA@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.76.1491222178.2961.python-list@python.org>
 <0874481d-67ca-4b5f-986a-c92d04a88d9b@googlegroups.com>
 <CACL+1asoZuGk1vhjYBjOSekG9gC-=b0XOEMyk8NTWG3_Ftj9DQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.77.1491224407.2961.python-list@python.org>
 <14b1d06a-1ded-4e79-a0a8-525ceb4d7891@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <0ea8bd26-ecd3-4c7d-a939-00077a912912@googlegroups.com>

On Monday, 3 April 2017 14:20:43 UTC+1, Paul  Moore  wrote:
> On Monday, 3 April 2017 14:00:18 UTC+1, eryk sun  wrote:
> > It should service the request and return to the serve_forever() loop.
> > Do you see a line logged for each request, like "[IP] - - [date] "GET
> > ..."?
> 
> Yes, I see that and the page is served.
> 
> >py .\example.py
> Serving HTTP on port 8000...
> 127.0.0.1 - - [03/Apr/2017 13:25:34] "GET / HTTP/1.1" 200 5470
> 127.0.0.1 - - [03/Apr/2017 13:25:34] "GET /favicon.ico HTTP/1.1" 200 5438
> 
> But if I press Ctrl-C at this point, nothing happens. Even if I press Ctrl-C multiple times.

Hmm, looks like sometimes it works. I wonder if the browser is holding open the page request somehow. That seems unlikely as HTTP is supposed to be stateless.

I guess this isn't worth worrying about. It seems like it's only an occasional problem, and I have a workaround (Ctrl-Break) anyway.

Paul


From eryksun at gmail.com  Mon Apr  3 09:58:31 2017
From: eryksun at gmail.com (eryk sun)
Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2017 13:58:31 +0000
Subject: SocketServer and Ctrl-C on Windows
In-Reply-To: <14b1d06a-1ded-4e79-a0a8-525ceb4d7891@googlegroups.com>
References: <088d6b0f-9654-43a0-9536-b4a551209a58@googlegroups.com>
 <CACL+1auE5PutkFbyQhE33T1DgTwetZRrGYSbpOdv3O+DbvKckA@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.76.1491222178.2961.python-list@python.org>
 <0874481d-67ca-4b5f-986a-c92d04a88d9b@googlegroups.com>
 <CACL+1asoZuGk1vhjYBjOSekG9gC-=b0XOEMyk8NTWG3_Ftj9DQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.77.1491224407.2961.python-list@python.org>
 <14b1d06a-1ded-4e79-a0a8-525ceb4d7891@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <CACL+1asXHk_popBc=kLHYwNojdvCzcQ0r4UnrOe_h3QetD5d_g@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Apr 3, 2017 at 1:20 PM, Paul  Moore <p.f.moore at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Monday, 3 April 2017 14:00:18 UTC+1, eryk sun  wrote:
>> It should service the request and return to the serve_forever() loop.
>> Do you see a line logged for each request, like "[IP] - - [date] "GET
>> ..."?
>
> Yes, I see that and the page is served.
>
>>py .\example.py
> Serving HTTP on port 8000...
> 127.0.0.1 - - [03/Apr/2017 13:25:34] "GET / HTTP/1.1" 200 5470
> 127.0.0.1 - - [03/Apr/2017 13:25:34] "GET /favicon.ico HTTP/1.1" 200 5438
>
> But if I press Ctrl-C at this point, nothing happens. Even if I press Ctrl-C multiple times.

Try adding a low-level console control handler that shuts down the
server. For example:

    import sys
    import ctypes
    from wsgiref.simple_server import make_server, demo_app

    kernel32 = ctypes.WinDLL('kernel32', use_last_error=True)
    CTRL_C_EVENT = 0

    with make_server('', 8000, demo_app) as httpd:
        print("Serving HTTP on port 8000...")

        @ctypes.WINFUNCTYPE(ctypes.c_int, ctypes.c_uint)
        def ctrl_handler(dwCtrlType):
            if dwCtrlType == CTRL_C_EVENT:
                print("Ctrl+C shutdown", file=sys.stderr)
                httpd.shutdown()
            return False

        if not kernel32.SetConsoleCtrlHandler(ctrl_handler, True):
            raise ctypes.WinError(ctypes.get_last_error())

        # Respond to requests until process is killed
        httpd.serve_forever()


From rosuav at gmail.com  Mon Apr  3 10:09:58 2017
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2017 00:09:58 +1000
Subject: SocketServer and Ctrl-C on Windows
In-Reply-To: <0ea8bd26-ecd3-4c7d-a939-00077a912912@googlegroups.com>
References: <088d6b0f-9654-43a0-9536-b4a551209a58@googlegroups.com>
 <CACL+1auE5PutkFbyQhE33T1DgTwetZRrGYSbpOdv3O+DbvKckA@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.76.1491222178.2961.python-list@python.org>
 <0874481d-67ca-4b5f-986a-c92d04a88d9b@googlegroups.com>
 <CACL+1asoZuGk1vhjYBjOSekG9gC-=b0XOEMyk8NTWG3_Ftj9DQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.77.1491224407.2961.python-list@python.org>
 <14b1d06a-1ded-4e79-a0a8-525ceb4d7891@googlegroups.com>
 <0ea8bd26-ecd3-4c7d-a939-00077a912912@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmrjns+zQtkyvK=dmBmSS4bMbne1TOkk_29mAhO7YctvUA@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Apr 3, 2017 at 11:56 PM, Paul  Moore <p.f.moore at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Monday, 3 April 2017 14:20:43 UTC+1, Paul  Moore  wrote:
>> On Monday, 3 April 2017 14:00:18 UTC+1, eryk sun  wrote:
>> > It should service the request and return to the serve_forever() loop.
>> > Do you see a line logged for each request, like "[IP] - - [date] "GET
>> > ..."?
>>
>> Yes, I see that and the page is served.
>>
>> >py .\example.py
>> Serving HTTP on port 8000...
>> 127.0.0.1 - - [03/Apr/2017 13:25:34] "GET / HTTP/1.1" 200 5470
>> 127.0.0.1 - - [03/Apr/2017 13:25:34] "GET /favicon.ico HTTP/1.1" 200 5438
>>
>> But if I press Ctrl-C at this point, nothing happens. Even if I press Ctrl-C multiple times.
>
> Hmm, looks like sometimes it works. I wonder if the browser is holding open the page request somehow. That seems unlikely as HTTP is supposed to be stateless.
>

You're getting HTTP/1.1 requests. Maybe you need to send a
"Connection: close" header to tell the browser to leave you be?

ChrisA


From python at deborahswanson.net  Mon Apr  3 10:30:40 2017
From: python at deborahswanson.net (Deborah Swanson)
Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2017 07:30:40 -0700
Subject: Two variable dictionary comprehension
In-Reply-To: <eke8p8Fo2uqU1@mid.individual.net>
Message-ID: <007401d2ac86$dee57320$27b23dae@sambora>

Gregory Ewing wrote, on April 02, 2017 11:35 PM
> 
> Deborah Swanson wrote:
> 
> > Oh, come on. That's a fairly obscure citation in the docs, one that 
> > would take a good deal of experience and time reading 
> through them to 
> > know was there,
> 
> You seemed to know that there was something called a "dict 
> comprehension". Googling for "python 3 dict comprehension" 
> gives me a link to an example of one in the docs as the second result.
> 
> The first result is a page in Dive Into Python containing
> a section on dict comprehensions.
> 
> Part of being a good programmer is knowing how to track
> down the information you need!
> 
> Having said that, the index of the Python docs could be 
> improved a bit in this area -- currently it only mentions 
> "list" under "comprehension" (although the page it leads to 
> discusses the other types as well).
> 
> -- 
> Greg

Despite my earlier words and protestations that I did look for two
variable dict comprehensions, fairly diligently, I am taking what you
said seriously. Obviously I shouldn't expect to find handy and
recognizable entries in the index for everything I might want to find in
the docs, and I plan to spend more time browsing around. 

Clearly there's more to be found in nooks, crannies and byways in the
docs than you'll get to from the given pointers in the index. Maybe it
would be worthwhile to scrape the whole mess and have it in searchable
text form. Another thing Python would be the right tool for the job for.
Regular updates as the docs are updated would be a good idea too. It's
obvious that today's Google isn't up to it, although it occurs to me
that I haven't tried Google's site search on python.org.

I hope you won't be miffed though if I still come up empty handed and
come back here to ask again.

Deborah



From p.f.moore at gmail.com  Mon Apr  3 10:34:42 2017
From: p.f.moore at gmail.com (Paul Moore)
Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2017 07:34:42 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: SocketServer and Ctrl-C on Windows
In-Reply-To: <mailman.80.1491228601.2961.python-list@python.org>
References: <088d6b0f-9654-43a0-9536-b4a551209a58@googlegroups.com>
 <CACL+1auE5PutkFbyQhE33T1DgTwetZRrGYSbpOdv3O+DbvKckA@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.76.1491222178.2961.python-list@python.org>
 <0874481d-67ca-4b5f-986a-c92d04a88d9b@googlegroups.com>
 <CACL+1asoZuGk1vhjYBjOSekG9gC-=b0XOEMyk8NTWG3_Ftj9DQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.77.1491224407.2961.python-list@python.org>
 <14b1d06a-1ded-4e79-a0a8-525ceb4d7891@googlegroups.com>
 <0ea8bd26-ecd3-4c7d-a939-00077a912912@googlegroups.com>
 <CAPTjJmrjns+zQtkyvK=dmBmSS4bMbne1TOkk_29mAhO7YctvUA@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.80.1491228601.2961.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <1f67125a-5c30-457a-9414-bcbabba39559@googlegroups.com>

On Monday, 3 April 2017 15:10:12 UTC+1, Chris Angelico  wrote:
> You're getting HTTP/1.1 requests. Maybe you need to send a
> "Connection: close" header to tell the browser to leave you be?

That sounds possible - I don't really know enough about HTTP to even know that was a thing, so I'm not surprised if I got it wrong.

My test harness is using a Bottle server, which (apparently) actively gets in the way of setting this header, so I'll have to do a bit more work to confirm this, but it certainly seems like a good lead.

Paul


From prathamesh.nimkar at gmail.com  Mon Apr  3 12:11:49 2017
From: prathamesh.nimkar at gmail.com (Prathamesh)
Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2017 09:11:49 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Improve Python + Influxdb import performance
Message-ID: <104d49b4-da8c-4b23-a520-3042c9d91a3d@googlegroups.com>

Hello World

The following script is an extract from

https://github.com/RittmanMead/obi-metrics-agent/blob/master/obi-metrics-agent.py

<<Code begins>>

import calendar, time
import sys
import getopt

print '---------------------------------------'

# Check the arguments to this script are as expected.
# argv[0] is script name.
argLen = len(sys.argv)
if argLen -1 < 2:
    print "ERROR: got ", argLen -1, " args, must be at least two."
    print '$FMW_HOME/oracle_common/common/bin/wlst.sh obi-metrics-agent.py  <AdminUserName> <AdminPassword> [<AdminServer_t3_url>] [<Carbon|InfluxDB>] [<target host>] [<target port>] [targetDB influx db>'
    exit()

outputFormat='CSV'
url='t3://localhost:7001'
targetHost='localhost'
targetDB='obi'
targetPort='8086'

try:
    wls_user = sys.argv[1]
    wls_pw = sys.argv[2]
    url  = sys.argv[3]
    outputFormat=sys.argv[4]
    targetHost=sys.argv[5]
    targetPort=sys.argv[6]
    targetDB=sys.argv[7]
except:
    print ''

print wls_user, wls_pw,url, outputFormat,targetHost,targetPort,targetDB

now_epoch = calendar.timegm(time.gmtime())*1000

if outputFormat=='InfluxDB':
    import httplib
    influx_msgs=''

connect(wls_user,wls_pw,url)
results = displayMetricTables('Oracle_BI*','dms_cProcessInfo')
for table in results:
    tableName = table.get('Table')
    rows = table.get('Rows')
    rowCollection = rows.values()
    iter = rowCollection.iterator()
    while iter.hasNext():
        row = iter.next()
        rowType = row.getCompositeType()
        keys = rowType.keySet()
        keyIter = keys.iterator()
        inst_name= row.get('Name').replace(' ','-')
        try:
            server= row.get('Servername').replace(' ','-').replace('/','_')
        except:
            try:
                server= row.get('ServerName').replace(' ','-').replace('/','_')
            except:
                server='unknown'
        try:
            host= row.get('Host').replace(' ','-')
        except:
            host=''
        while keyIter.hasNext():
            columnName = keyIter.next()
            value = row.get(columnName )
            if columnName.find('.value')>0:
                metric_name=columnName.replace('.value','')
                if value is not None:
                    if value != 0:
                        if outputFormat=='InfluxDB':
                            influx_msg= ('%s,server=%s,host=%s,metric_group=%s,metric_instance=%s value=%s %s') % (metric_name,server,host,tableName,inst_name,  value,now_epoch*1000000)
                            influx_msgs+='\n%s' % influx_msg
                            conn = httplib.HTTPConnection('%s:%s' % (targetHost,targetPort))
                            ## TODO pretty sure should be urlencoding this ...
                            a=conn.request("POST", ("/write?db=%s" % targetDB), influx_msg)
                            r=conn.getresponse()

<<Code ends>>

It currently takes about 3 minutes to execute completely and I was thinking of a way to make it run faster

Data alignment (Influx line protocol) & data loading - done together takes up most of the time

Influxdb is currently loading data at around 3 points/second

Any way to align the data separately, store it and load it as a batch?

I feel that would help improve performance

Please let me know if you have any pointers
I can send the data sheet if required

Thanks P


From songofacandy at gmail.com  Mon Apr  3 12:22:04 2017
From: songofacandy at gmail.com (INADA Naoki)
Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2017 01:22:04 +0900
Subject: Improve Python + Influxdb import performance
In-Reply-To: <104d49b4-da8c-4b23-a520-3042c9d91a3d@googlegroups.com>
References: <104d49b4-da8c-4b23-a520-3042c9d91a3d@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <CAEfz+TwY2MifjckPuRyEEw8FEBnGX3V0G36h43RV775PvKUVoA@mail.gmail.com>

You can reuse connection, instead of creating for each request. (HTTP
keep-alive).

On Tue, Apr 4, 2017 at 1:11 AM, Prathamesh <prathamesh.nimkar at gmail.com> wrote:
> Hello World
>
> The following script is an extract from
>
> https://github.com/RittmanMead/obi-metrics-agent/blob/master/obi-metrics-agent.py
>
> <<Code begins>>
>
> import calendar, time
> import sys
> import getopt
>
> print '---------------------------------------'
>
> # Check the arguments to this script are as expected.
> # argv[0] is script name.
> argLen = len(sys.argv)
> if argLen -1 < 2:
>     print "ERROR: got ", argLen -1, " args, must be at least two."
>     print '$FMW_HOME/oracle_common/common/bin/wlst.sh obi-metrics-agent.py  <AdminUserName> <AdminPassword> [<AdminServer_t3_url>] [<Carbon|InfluxDB>] [<target host>] [<target port>] [targetDB influx db>'
>     exit()
>
> outputFormat='CSV'
> url='t3://localhost:7001'
> targetHost='localhost'
> targetDB='obi'
> targetPort='8086'
>
> try:
>     wls_user = sys.argv[1]
>     wls_pw = sys.argv[2]
>     url  = sys.argv[3]
>     outputFormat=sys.argv[4]
>     targetHost=sys.argv[5]
>     targetPort=sys.argv[6]
>     targetDB=sys.argv[7]
> except:
>     print ''
>
> print wls_user, wls_pw,url, outputFormat,targetHost,targetPort,targetDB
>
> now_epoch = calendar.timegm(time.gmtime())*1000
>
> if outputFormat=='InfluxDB':
>     import httplib
>     influx_msgs=''
>
> connect(wls_user,wls_pw,url)
> results = displayMetricTables('Oracle_BI*','dms_cProcessInfo')
> for table in results:
>     tableName = table.get('Table')
>     rows = table.get('Rows')
>     rowCollection = rows.values()
>     iter = rowCollection.iterator()
>     while iter.hasNext():
>         row = iter.next()
>         rowType = row.getCompositeType()
>         keys = rowType.keySet()
>         keyIter = keys.iterator()
>         inst_name= row.get('Name').replace(' ','-')
>         try:
>             server= row.get('Servername').replace(' ','-').replace('/','_')
>         except:
>             try:
>                 server= row.get('ServerName').replace(' ','-').replace('/','_')
>             except:
>                 server='unknown'
>         try:
>             host= row.get('Host').replace(' ','-')
>         except:
>             host=''
>         while keyIter.hasNext():
>             columnName = keyIter.next()
>             value = row.get(columnName )
>             if columnName.find('.value')>0:
>                 metric_name=columnName.replace('.value','')
>                 if value is not None:
>                     if value != 0:
>                         if outputFormat=='InfluxDB':
>                             influx_msg= ('%s,server=%s,host=%s,metric_group=%s,metric_instance=%s value=%s %s') % (metric_name,server,host,tableName,inst_name,  value,now_epoch*1000000)
>                             influx_msgs+='\n%s' % influx_msg
>                             conn = httplib.HTTPConnection('%s:%s' % (targetHost,targetPort))
>                             ## TODO pretty sure should be urlencoding this ...
>                             a=conn.request("POST", ("/write?db=%s" % targetDB), influx_msg)
>                             r=conn.getresponse()
>
> <<Code ends>>
>
> It currently takes about 3 minutes to execute completely and I was thinking of a way to make it run faster
>
> Data alignment (Influx line protocol) & data loading - done together takes up most of the time
>
> Influxdb is currently loading data at around 3 points/second
>
> Any way to align the data separately, store it and load it as a batch?
>
> I feel that would help improve performance
>
> Please let me know if you have any pointers
> I can send the data sheet if required
>
> Thanks P
> --
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list


From rosuav at gmail.com  Mon Apr  3 12:26:30 2017
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2017 02:26:30 +1000
Subject: SocketServer and Ctrl-C on Windows
In-Reply-To: <1f67125a-5c30-457a-9414-bcbabba39559@googlegroups.com>
References: <088d6b0f-9654-43a0-9536-b4a551209a58@googlegroups.com>
 <CACL+1auE5PutkFbyQhE33T1DgTwetZRrGYSbpOdv3O+DbvKckA@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.76.1491222178.2961.python-list@python.org>
 <0874481d-67ca-4b5f-986a-c92d04a88d9b@googlegroups.com>
 <CACL+1asoZuGk1vhjYBjOSekG9gC-=b0XOEMyk8NTWG3_Ftj9DQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.77.1491224407.2961.python-list@python.org>
 <14b1d06a-1ded-4e79-a0a8-525ceb4d7891@googlegroups.com>
 <0ea8bd26-ecd3-4c7d-a939-00077a912912@googlegroups.com>
 <CAPTjJmrjns+zQtkyvK=dmBmSS4bMbne1TOkk_29mAhO7YctvUA@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.80.1491228601.2961.python-list@python.org>
 <1f67125a-5c30-457a-9414-bcbabba39559@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmq=r1=10h=kR0JQG8=qkduB6wSHgHOVmb28Bn9_u0xNTw@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Apr 4, 2017 at 12:34 AM, Paul  Moore <p.f.moore at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Monday, 3 April 2017 15:10:12 UTC+1, Chris Angelico  wrote:
>> You're getting HTTP/1.1 requests. Maybe you need to send a
>> "Connection: close" header to tell the browser to leave you be?
>
> That sounds possible - I don't really know enough about HTTP to even know that was a thing, so I'm not surprised if I got it wrong.
>
> My test harness is using a Bottle server, which (apparently) actively gets in the way of setting this header, so I'll have to do a bit more work to confirm this, but it certainly seems like a good lead.

An alternative way to diagnose this would be to see if you still have
an established socket connection. I'm not sure how you do that on
Windows, but it'd be a good thing to check.

ChrisA


From ethan at stoneleaf.us  Mon Apr  3 12:29:50 2017
From: ethan at stoneleaf.us (Ethan Furman)
Date: Mon, 03 Apr 2017 09:29:50 -0700
Subject: Behavior of auto in Enum and Flag.
In-Reply-To: <CADJiDhs46=DXEns2-aVQArmLwxf18KfvRiXhprMTrBALYMM1GA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CADJiDhuL0SWjjiQNG-Ftk+z95r92h3410T_T3iHqaZ37Pi3Rpg@mail.gmail.com>
 <58E201B9.2020907@stoneleaf.us>
 <CADJiDhs46=DXEns2-aVQArmLwxf18KfvRiXhprMTrBALYMM1GA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <58E2787E.7030408@stoneleaf.us>

On 04/03/2017 01:53 AM, Oren Ben-Kiki wrote:
> On Mon, Apr 3, 2017 at 11:03 AM, Ethan Furman wrote:
>
>> Python code is executed top-down.  First FOO, then BAR, then BAZ.  It is not saved up and executed later in random
>> order.  Or, put another way, the value was appropriate when it was chosen -- it is not the fault of auto() that the
>> user chose a conflicting value (hence why care should be taken).
>
> This is not to say that there's no possible workaround for this - the code could pretty easily defer invocation of
> _generate_next_macro_ until after the whole class was seen. It would still happen in order (since members are an ordered
> dictionary these days).

Possible, yes.  Easy, no.

> So it is a matter of conflicting values - what would be more "Pythonic": treating auto as executed immediately, or
> avoiding conflicts between auto and explicit values.

Since most things execute immediately, that is the pattern I chose.

>>> 1. The documentation will be more explicit about the way `auto` behaves in the presence of following value
>>
>> I can do that.
>
> Barring changing the way auto works, that would be best ("explicit is better than implicit" and all that ;-)

> As for backward compatibility, the docs are pretty clear about "use auto when you don't care about the value"... and
> Enum is pretty new, so there's not _that_ much code that relies on "implementation specific" details.

Fair point.

> *If* backward compatibility is an issue here, then the docs might as well specify "previous value plus 1, or 1 if this
> is the first value" as the "standard" behavior, and be done.

Actually, (Int)Flag uses the next power of two (not already seen) -- so it isn't as easy as "last value + 1".

> This has the advantage of being deterministic and explicit, so people would be justified in relying on it. It would
> still have to be accompanied by saying "auto() can only consider previous values, not following ones".

Something to that effect sounds good.

>     This might work for you (untested):
>
>     def _generate_next_value_(name, start, count, previous_values):
>          if not count:
>              return start or 1
>          previous_values.sort()
>          last_value = previous_values[-1]
>          if last_value < 1000:
>              return 1001
>          else:
>              return last_value + 1
>
>
> This assumes no following enum values have values > 1000 (or some predetermined constant), which doesn't work in my
> particular case, or in the general case. But yes, this might solve the problem for some people.

General code isn't going to "do what I need" 100% of the time for 100% of the people.  That's why I made the 
_generate_next_value_ method user over-ridable

>>> 3. To allow for this, the implementation will include a
>>> `_generate_auto_value_` which will take both the list of previous ("last")
>>> values (including auto values) and also a second list of the following
>>> ("next") values (excluding auto values).
>>
>> No, I'm not interested in doing that.  I currently have that kind of code in aenum[1] for 2.7 compatibility, and
>> it's a nightmare to maintain.
>
> Understood. Another alternative would be to have something like _generate_next_value_ex_ with the additional argument
> (similar to __reduce_ex__), which isn't ideal either.

It's a lot more work than just making another method.

> Assuming you buy into my "necessity" claim, that is...

It this point I do not.  If you can give us an example Enum and why it's necessary to be built like that I might be 
swayed -- although the odds are good that the change will go into aenum instead (it's already a mess with the 2.7 
compatibility code...).

> Thanks,

You're welcome.

--
~Ethan~



From rosuav at gmail.com  Mon Apr  3 12:43:23 2017
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2017 02:43:23 +1000
Subject: Behavior of auto in Enum and Flag.
In-Reply-To: <58E2787E.7030408@stoneleaf.us>
References: <CADJiDhuL0SWjjiQNG-Ftk+z95r92h3410T_T3iHqaZ37Pi3Rpg@mail.gmail.com>
 <58E201B9.2020907@stoneleaf.us>
 <CADJiDhs46=DXEns2-aVQArmLwxf18KfvRiXhprMTrBALYMM1GA@mail.gmail.com>
 <58E2787E.7030408@stoneleaf.us>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmq529rQwCB8o2PsTuOhJyaxiYw4KDxJXVoj38f1oxG4UQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Apr 4, 2017 at 2:29 AM, Ethan Furman <ethan at stoneleaf.us> wrote:
> It this point I do not.  If you can give us an example Enum and why it's
> necessary to be built like that I might be swayed -- although the odds are
> good that the change will go into aenum instead (it's already a mess with
> the 2.7 compatibility code...).

Here's a counter-example that supports the current behaviour:

>>> from enum import IntFlag, auto
>>> class Spam(IntFlag):
...     FOO = auto()
...     BAR = auto()
...     FOOBAR = FOO | BAR
...     SPAM = auto()
...     HAM = auto()
...     SPAMHAM = SPAM | HAM
...
>>> list(Spam)
[<Spam.FOO: 1>, <Spam.BAR: 2>, <Spam.FOOBAR: 3>, <Spam.SPAM: 4>,
<Spam.HAM: 8>, <Spam.SPAMHAM: 12>]

It makes perfect sense to define combined flags in terms of the
(previously-defined) individual flags. If auto() has to be deferred
until the class is fully defined, this would be a lot harder.

ChrisA


From python-oren at ben-kiki.org  Mon Apr  3 13:01:29 2017
From: python-oren at ben-kiki.org (Oren Ben-Kiki)
Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2017 20:01:29 +0300
Subject: Behavior of auto in Enum and Flag.
In-Reply-To: <CAPTjJmq529rQwCB8o2PsTuOhJyaxiYw4KDxJXVoj38f1oxG4UQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CADJiDhuL0SWjjiQNG-Ftk+z95r92h3410T_T3iHqaZ37Pi3Rpg@mail.gmail.com>
 <58E201B9.2020907@stoneleaf.us>
 <CADJiDhs46=DXEns2-aVQArmLwxf18KfvRiXhprMTrBALYMM1GA@mail.gmail.com>
 <58E2787E.7030408@stoneleaf.us>
 <CAPTjJmq529rQwCB8o2PsTuOhJyaxiYw4KDxJXVoj38f1oxG4UQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CADJiDhuv1P2rcwd0kY=V3pOPNQ02tRBVEFBZioKfQwY56M9mow@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Apr 3, 2017 at 7:43 PM, Chris Angelico <rosuav at gmail.com> wrote:

> Here's a counter-example that supports the current behaviour:
>
> >>> from enum import IntFlag, auto
> >>> class Spam(IntFlag):
> ...     FOO = auto()
> ...     BAR = auto()
> ...     FOOBAR = FOO | BAR
> ...     SPAM = auto()
> ...     HAM = auto()
> ...     SPAMHAM = SPAM | HAM
> ...
>

Ugh, good point - I didn't consider that use case, I see how it would be
nasty to implement.

I guess just improving the documentation is called for, then...

Thanks,

Oren.


From prathamesh.nimkar at gmail.com  Mon Apr  3 13:03:47 2017
From: prathamesh.nimkar at gmail.com (Prathamesh)
Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2017 10:03:47 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Improve Python + Influxdb import performance
In-Reply-To: <mailman.83.1491236547.2961.python-list@python.org>
References: <104d49b4-da8c-4b23-a520-3042c9d91a3d@googlegroups.com>
 <CAEfz+TwY2MifjckPuRyEEw8FEBnGX3V0G36h43RV775PvKUVoA@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.83.1491236547.2961.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <2b086408-d176-42fd-9b15-be0aa19c584d@googlegroups.com>

On Monday, April 3, 2017 at 9:52:38 PM UTC+5:30, INADA Naoki wrote:
> You can reuse connection, instead of creating for each request. (HTTP
> keep-alive).
> 
> On Tue, Apr 4, 2017 at 1:11 AM, Prathamesh <prathamesh.nimkar at gmail.com> wrote:
> > Hello World
> >
> > The following script is an extract from
> >
> > https://github.com/RittmanMead/obi-metrics-agent/blob/master/obi-metrics-agent.py
> >
> > <<Code begins>>
> >
> > import calendar, time
> > import sys
> > import getopt
> >
> > print '---------------------------------------'
> >
> > # Check the arguments to this script are as expected.
> > # argv[0] is script name.
> > argLen = len(sys.argv)
> > if argLen -1 < 2:
> >     print "ERROR: got ", argLen -1, " args, must be at least two."
> >     print '$FMW_HOME/oracle_common/common/bin/wlst.sh obi-metrics-agent.py  <AdminUserName> <AdminPassword> [<AdminServer_t3_url>] [<Carbon|InfluxDB>] [<target host>] [<target port>] [targetDB influx db>'
> >     exit()
> >
> > outputFormat='CSV'
> > url='t3://localhost:7001'
> > targetHost='localhost'
> > targetDB='obi'
> > targetPort='8086'
> >
> > try:
> >     wls_user = sys.argv[1]
> >     wls_pw = sys.argv[2]
> >     url  = sys.argv[3]
> >     outputFormat=sys.argv[4]
> >     targetHost=sys.argv[5]
> >     targetPort=sys.argv[6]
> >     targetDB=sys.argv[7]
> > except:
> >     print ''
> >
> > print wls_user, wls_pw,url, outputFormat,targetHost,targetPort,targetDB
> >
> > now_epoch = calendar.timegm(time.gmtime())*1000
> >
> > if outputFormat=='InfluxDB':
> >     import httplib
> >     influx_msgs=''
> >
> > connect(wls_user,wls_pw,url)
> > results = displayMetricTables('Oracle_BI*','dms_cProcessInfo')
> > for table in results:
> >     tableName = table.get('Table')
> >     rows = table.get('Rows')
> >     rowCollection = rows.values()
> >     iter = rowCollection.iterator()
> >     while iter.hasNext():
> >         row = iter.next()
> >         rowType = row.getCompositeType()
> >         keys = rowType.keySet()
> >         keyIter = keys.iterator()
> >         inst_name= row.get('Name').replace(' ','-')
> >         try:
> >             server= row.get('Servername').replace(' ','-').replace('/','_')
> >         except:
> >             try:
> >                 server= row.get('ServerName').replace(' ','-').replace('/','_')
> >             except:
> >                 server='unknown'
> >         try:
> >             host= row.get('Host').replace(' ','-')
> >         except:
> >             host=''
> >         while keyIter.hasNext():
> >             columnName = keyIter.next()
> >             value = row.get(columnName )
> >             if columnName.find('.value')>0:
> >                 metric_name=columnName.replace('.value','')
> >                 if value is not None:
> >                     if value != 0:
> >                         if outputFormat=='InfluxDB':
> >                             influx_msg= ('%s,server=%s,host=%s,metric_group=%s,metric_instance=%s value=%s %s') % (metric_name,server,host,tableName,inst_name,  value,now_epoch*1000000)
> >                             influx_msgs+='\n%s' % influx_msg
> >                             conn = httplib.HTTPConnection('%s:%s' % (targetHost,targetPort))
> >                             ## TODO pretty sure should be urlencoding this ...
> >                             a=conn.request("POST", ("/write?db=%s" % targetDB), influx_msg)
> >                             r=conn.getresponse()
> >
> > <<Code ends>>
> >
> > It currently takes about 3 minutes to execute completely and I was thinking of a way to make it run faster
> >
> > Data alignment (Influx line protocol) & data loading - done together takes up most of the time
> >
> > Influxdb is currently loading data at around 3 points/second
> >
> > Any way to align the data separately, store it and load it as a batch?
> >
> > I feel that would help improve performance
> >
> > Please let me know if you have any pointers
> > I can send the data sheet if required
> >
> > Thanks P
> > --
> > https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

How do I do that?


From python at deborahswanson.net  Mon Apr  3 13:27:33 2017
From: python at deborahswanson.net (Deborah Swanson)
Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2017 10:27:33 -0700
Subject: Two variable dictionary comprehension
In-Reply-To: <1tt4ec5jfvpk37n57bfd8k18stsqlub4bc@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <003201d2ac9f$946dff60$27b23dae@sambora>

Dennis Lee Bieber wrote, on April 03, 2017 9:35 AM
> 
> On Mon, 3 Apr 2017 07:30:40 -0700, "Deborah Swanson" 
> <python at deborahswanson.net> declaimed the following:
> 
> >
> >Clearly there's more to be found in nooks, crannies and 
> byways in the 
> >docs than you'll get to from the given pointers in the 
> index. Maybe it 
> >would be worthwhile to scrape the whole mess and have it in 
> searchable 
> >text form. Another thing Python would be the right tool for the job 
> >for. Regular updates as the docs are updated would be a good 
> idea too. 
> >It's obvious that today's Google isn't up to it, although it 
> occurs to 
> >me that I haven't tried Google's site search on python.org.
> >
> 	On Windows, the (at least, for ActiveState releases) 
> documentation is available in Windows Help format -- though 
> I'll admit the "free text search" leaves a lot to be desired...
> 
> 	"dict comprehension" didn't find anything obvious; 
> "dictionary comprehension" brought up PEP 274 (note: I still 
> use 2.7 as main version).
> 
> -=-=-=-=-=-
> Semantics
>     The semantics of dict comprehensions can actually be demonstrated
>     in stock Python 2.2, by passing a list comprehension to the
>     builtin dictionary constructor:
> 
>     >>> dict([(i, chr(65+i)) for i in range(4)])
> 
>     is semantically equivalent to
> 
>     >>> {i : chr(65+i) for i in range(4)}
> 
>     The dictionary constructor approach has two dictinct disadvantages
>     from the proposed syntax though.  First, it isn't as legible as a
>     dict comprehension.  Second, it forces the programmer to create an
>     in-core list object first, which could be expensive.
> 
> -=-=-=-=-=-
> -- 
> 	Wulfraed                 Dennis Lee Bieber         AF6VN
>     wlfraed at ix.netcom.com    HTTP://wlfraed.home.netcom.com/

It would be interesting to play around with different list
comprehensions than the one they've shown.

I'll admit that both dictionaries and comprehensions are still a little
bit fuzzy to me, especially when I get away from the common usages. This
could be a good exercise to clarify some of the fuzzy areas.

Deborah



From rgaddi at highlandtechnology.invalid  Mon Apr  3 13:38:15 2017
From: rgaddi at highlandtechnology.invalid (Rob Gaddi)
Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2017 10:38:15 -0700
Subject: Two variable dictionary comprehension
In-Reply-To: <mailman.89.1491240443.2961.python-list@python.org>
References: <1tt4ec5jfvpk37n57bfd8k18stsqlub4bc@4ax.com>
 <003201d2ac9f$946dff60$27b23dae@sambora>
 <mailman.89.1491240443.2961.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <obu14j$e9r$1@dont-email.me>

On 04/03/2017 10:27 AM, Deborah Swanson wrote:
> Dennis Lee Bieber wrote, on April 03, 2017 9:35 AM
>>
>> On Mon, 3 Apr 2017 07:30:40 -0700, "Deborah Swanson"
>> <python at deborahswanson.net> declaimed the following:
>>
>>>
>>> Clearly there's more to be found in nooks, crannies and
>> byways in the
>>> docs than you'll get to from the given pointers in the
>> index. Maybe it
>>> would be worthwhile to scrape the whole mess and have it in
>> searchable
>>> text form. Another thing Python would be the right tool for the job
>>> for. Regular updates as the docs are updated would be a good
>> idea too.
>>> It's obvious that today's Google isn't up to it, although it
>> occurs to
>>> me that I haven't tried Google's site search on python.org.
>>>
>> 	On Windows, the (at least, for ActiveState releases)
>> documentation is available in Windows Help format -- though
>> I'll admit the "free text search" leaves a lot to be desired...
>>
>> 	"dict comprehension" didn't find anything obvious;
>> "dictionary comprehension" brought up PEP 274 (note: I still
>> use 2.7 as main version).
>>
>> -=-=-=-=-=-
>> Semantics
>>     The semantics of dict comprehensions can actually be demonstrated
>>     in stock Python 2.2, by passing a list comprehension to the
>>     builtin dictionary constructor:
>>
>>     >>> dict([(i, chr(65+i)) for i in range(4)])
>>
>>     is semantically equivalent to
>>
>>     >>> {i : chr(65+i) for i in range(4)}
>>
>>     The dictionary constructor approach has two dictinct disadvantages
>>     from the proposed syntax though.  First, it isn't as legible as a
>>     dict comprehension.  Second, it forces the programmer to create an
>>     in-core list object first, which could be expensive.
>>
>> -=-=-=-=-=-
>> --
>> 	Wulfraed                 Dennis Lee Bieber         AF6VN
>>     wlfraed at ix.netcom.com    HTTP://wlfraed.home.netcom.com/
>
> It would be interesting to play around with different list
> comprehensions than the one they've shown.
>
> I'll admit that both dictionaries and comprehensions are still a little
> bit fuzzy to me, especially when I get away from the common usages. This
> could be a good exercise to clarify some of the fuzzy areas.
>
> Deborah
>

And don't forget
   dict_comp : { k:v for (k,v) in kv_provider }
   set_comp : { item for item in item_provider }
   set_of_tuples_comp : { (k,v) for (k,v) in kv_provider }

Just to make things more complicated.

-- 
Rob Gaddi, Highland Technology -- www.highlandtechnology.com
Email address domain is currently out of order.  See above to fix.


From steve+python at pearwood.info  Mon Apr  3 13:55:12 2017
From: steve+python at pearwood.info (Steve D'Aprano)
Date: Tue, 04 Apr 2017 03:55:12 +1000
Subject: OFF-TOPIC Bigotry on the list [was Re: Text-mode apps (Was :Who are
 the "spacists"?)]
References: <CAE6NSRD=LLyj2qdBR_YX_MkubocQCURVivkHg=+62qgZZ3qCQw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAE6NSRDsN8vTPkt4E4LU6JGMEqUME3DQ73GPZ-f_7uVCR-aGrw@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.38.1490547441.2634.python-list@python.org>
 <58d80413$0$1595$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <CAE6NSRDpdadqORG1w0529bvvw_Gkoau8xTga3LYS=LfGCmXuqg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPTjJmojKPE3d4y5YEJJuGer174Yv0ZcobJGOp8rmYgYYYefbg@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.57.1490558002.2634.python-list@python.org>
 <626fc6cf-0cf9-4efa-a3ff-f9ca2ddcb7fd@googlegroups.com>
 <CAPTjJmqDU1Wr4y0G=BmYCjEdKLC0_Ch-fNoM2cOykX1vB5B-5Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.136.1490852628.2634.python-list@python.org>
 <ee1ada22-ce6c-4e21-b5ae-cbbbaca0b8ba@googlegroups.com>
 <58dfcea3$0$1596$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <obq6fc$219$1@blaine.gmane.org>
 <mailman.42.1491115334.2961.python-list@python.org>
 <58e12641$0$1597$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <obru38$l35$1@blaine.gmane.org>
 <mailman.54.1491172280.2961.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <58e28c83$0$1614$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>

On Mon, 3 Apr 2017 08:31 am, Terry Reedy wrote:

[...]
> I refrained because it would be off-topic and a diversion from my point:
> all bigotry is inappropriate here on this list, 

Indeed it is not appropriate. But calling out bigotry is not itself bigotry.

I hope you agree with that.

If not, that leaves you with some deeply Unfortunate Implications.

Suppose you are right, and merely calling out "Ranting Rick" for his bigoted
attitude makes me an anti-American bigot. Then by *you* calling *me* out
for bigotry, that makes you equally a bigot. And so the only way to avoid
being a bigot is... to do nothing in the face of bigotry.

I didn't see you calling out Rick for his prejudice against those who aren't
American, his absurd belief that "most" people are satisfied with ASCII, or
his claim that the rest of the world don't need file names in their native
languages because the "majority" (his word) of them are illiterate. Do you
think those attitudes should be left unchallenged?

(In fairness, Rick doesn't say that the *entire* rest of the world is mostly
illiterate. He only includes China, India, Russia, Japan, Indonesia,
Arab-speakers, and Israel. So a bit less than half the world.)


> including anti-Americanism.

When have I demonstrated prejudice against Americans merely for being
American?

I stand by my comment to Rick. It is *his behaviour and attitude* which
makes him an example of the stereotype, not the fact that he is an
American.

Of course all people are unique, and all stereotypes are incomplete. People
are not their stereotype, and I'm sure that Rick is a wonderful and unique
person in his own way. Perhaps he loves animals and donates his time to
working in shelters for the homeless.

But nevertheless people do behave in stereotypical ways, and we've seen Rick
do exactly that. Insensitive to cultural differences, dismissive of those
who aren't American, ignorant of everything outside of the borders of the
US, and arrogantly certain that the American way is not just the best way
but the only way. And *wilfully* so. This is not just an isolated incident
from Rick, a mere momentary lapse. He has been expressing these sorts of
attitudes for years.


> (I actually think raw bigoty is inappropriate everywhere.  While there
> are places to discuss the relative average beauty and niceness of
> various groups of people, this is not one of them.  Even comparisons of
> computer languages is not the main focus of this list.)

I'm not discussing the "relative average beauty and niceness of various
groups of people". That's absurd. I'm discussing the behaviour and
attitudes demonstrated by one specific individual.


[...]
> Yesterday, Chris Angelico, I believe it was, asked someone to stop
> including anti-Jew messages in posts here.  So I asked the same of you
> regarding your anti-American expression.

Can you really not tell the difference between criticism of an individual
American for the views he expresses, and a blanket attack on all Americans
merely for being American?



>> Not all Americans, perhaps not even a majority or a plurality, are Ugly
>> Americans, but there are enough of them to screw it up for everyone else.
> 
> Shall we discuss Ugly Australians, or whatever the appropriate epithet
> would be?

If one of them turns up and starts expressing those views, absolutely.


>> It's an ugly stereotype, not because it is a stereotype, but because it
>  > embodies a set of ugly attitudes and behaviours.
> 
> I am sure I have seen similar things written by various other people
> justifying their prejudices.

As have I. Are you judging *me* by *their* behaviour?



-- 
Steve
?Cheer up,? they said, ?things could be worse.? So I cheered up, and sure
enough, things got worse.



From python at deborahswanson.net  Mon Apr  3 14:48:38 2017
From: python at deborahswanson.net (Deborah Swanson)
Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2017 11:48:38 -0700
Subject: Two variable dictionary comprehension
In-Reply-To: <obu14j$e9r$1@dont-email.me>
Message-ID: <004a01d2acaa$e8727a40$27b23dae@sambora>

Rob Gaddi wrote, on April 03, 2017 10:38 AM
> 
> On 04/03/2017 10:27 AM, Deborah Swanson wrote:
> > Dennis Lee Bieber wrote, on April 03, 2017 9:35 AM
> >>
> >> On Mon, 3 Apr 2017 07:30:40 -0700, "Deborah Swanson" 
> >> <python at deborahswanson.net> declaimed the following:
> >>
> >>>
> >>> Clearly there's more to be found in nooks, crannies and byways in
the
> >>> docs than you'll get to from the given pointers in the index.
Maybe it
> >>> would be worthwhile to scrape the whole mess and have it in
searchable
> >>> text form. Another thing Python would be the right tool for the
job 
> >>> for. Regular updates as the docs are updated would be a good idea
too.
> >>> It's obvious that today's Google isn't up to it, although it
occurs to
> >>> me that I haven't tried Google's site search on python.org.
> >>>
> >> 	On Windows, the (at least, for ActiveState releases)
documentation 
> >> is available in Windows Help format -- though I'll admit the "free 
> >> text search" leaves a lot to be desired...
> >>
> >> 	"dict comprehension" didn't find anything obvious; "dictionary 
> >> comprehension" brought up PEP 274 (note: I still use 2.7 as main 
> >> version).
> >>
> >> -=-=-=-=-=-
> >> Semantics
> >>     The semantics of dict comprehensions can actually be
demonstrated
> >>     in stock Python 2.2, by passing a list comprehension to the
> >>     builtin dictionary constructor:
> >>
> >>     >>> dict([(i, chr(65+i)) for i in range(4)])
> >>
> >>     is semantically equivalent to
> >>
> >>     >>> {i : chr(65+i) for i in range(4)}
> >>
> >>     The dictionary constructor approach has two dictinct
disadvantages
> >>     from the proposed syntax though.  First, it isn't as legible as
a
> >>     dict comprehension.  Second, it forces the programmer to create
an
> >>     in-core list object first, which could be expensive.
> >>
> >> -=-=-=-=-=-
> >> --
> >> 	Wulfraed                 Dennis Lee Bieber         AF6VN
> >>     wlfraed at ix.netcom.com    HTTP://wlfraed.home.netcom.com/
> >
> > It would be interesting to play around with different list 
> > comprehensions than the one they've shown.
> >
> > I'll admit that both dictionaries and comprehensions are still a 
> > little bit fuzzy to me, especially when I get away from the common 
> > usages. This could be a good exercise to clarify some of the fuzzy 
> > areas.
> >
> > Deborah
> >
> 
> And don't forget
>    dict_comp : { k:v for (k,v) in kv_provider }
>    set_comp : { item for item in item_provider }
>    set_of_tuples_comp : { (k,v) for (k,v) in kv_provider }
> 
> Just to make things more complicated.
> 
> -- 
> Rob Gaddi, Highland Technology -- www.highlandtechnology.com 
> Email address domain is currently out of order.  See above to fix.

Added to my list of comprehension types, thank you.

I'm thinking it would also be good to include the PEPs in my searchable
Python reference. Just making the collection and browsing through it
would be highly instructive.

But, if Larry Page and Sergey Brin could tinker around in their dorm
rooms (or wherever they lived then) and they made the first Google (the
first search engine?) to boolean search the World Wide Web, it shouldn't
be so awfully hard to make a collection of Python docs that's boolean
searchable. 

I haven't seen a search method for text that comes anywhere near boolean
search's completeness in returning results (though I'm happy to take
suggestions).

Deborah




From best_lay at yahoo.com  Mon Apr  3 15:29:56 2017
From: best_lay at yahoo.com (Wildman)
Date: Mon, 03 Apr 2017 14:29:56 -0500
Subject: Request Help With pkexec
Message-ID: <iMKdndqEbtApP3_FnZ2dnUU7-TfNnZ2d@giganews.com>

Python 3.4.2
Tkinter 8.6
GCC 4.9.1 on Linux

I am working on a gui program using Tkinter. The program will
have a feature to restart as root.  I am testing different gui
front-ends from a terminal to raise privileges and I want to
be able to use as many as possible for obvious reasons.  Gksu,
kdesudo and su-to-root all work perfectly.  However, I have a
problem with pkexec.  Here is the command I am using from a
terminal:

$ pkexec python3 /home/user/Python/linfo-tk/linfo-tk.py

I get this error:

Traceback (most recent call last):
  File "/home/user/Python/linfo-tk/linfo-tk.py", line 455, in <module>
    root = tk.Tk()
  File "/usr/lib/python3.4/tkinter/__init__.py", line 1854, in __init__
    self.tk = _tkinter.create(screenName, baseName, className, interactive, wantobjects, useTk, sync, use)
_tkinter.TclError: no display name and no $DISPLAY environment variable

The display environment variable is set:

$ echo $DISPLAY
:0.0

And the program displays and works perfectly in every other way.
I would appreciate any insight.

-- 
<Wildman> GNU/Linux user #557453
May the Source be with you.


From malaclypse2 at gmail.com  Mon Apr  3 16:47:57 2017
From: malaclypse2 at gmail.com (Jerry Hill)
Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2017 16:47:57 -0400
Subject: Two variable dictionary comprehension
In-Reply-To: <007401d2ac86$dee57320$27b23dae@sambora>
References: <eke8p8Fo2uqU1@mid.individual.net>
 <007401d2ac86$dee57320$27b23dae@sambora>
Message-ID: <CADwdpyYjU2M+4pnHP3hZix4CieewQ5Mh0fb=viBAkipi4yzDCw@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Apr 3, 2017 at 10:30 AM, Deborah Swanson
<python at deborahswanson.net> wrote:
> Regular updates as the docs are updated would be a good idea too. It's
> obvious that today's Google isn't up to it, although it occurs to me
> that I haven't tried Google's site search on python.org.

So, when you search google for the phrase "dict comprehension" or
"dictionary comprehension", nothing useful comes up for you?  When I
search either of those phrases, I get lots of useful results, all of
which spell out how to do what you were originally asking about.  I
know Google search results are skewed by past usage, but I'm surprised
that you didn't find anything useful in the first couple of search
results.

When I do a search for 'dict comprehension' I get a boxed result
linking to PEP 274 as the first hit, then two Stack Overflow
questions, both of which demonstrate how to do dictionary
comprehensions.  Following that is another link to PEP 274, a link to
the Python docs on data structures (which does talk about dict
comprehensions, but it's way down on the page), and then links to a
bunch of tutorials.  If you had to judge based on my search results,
Google does a fine job of answering python questions, at least when
you already know the key phrase to look for.

-- 
Jerry


From nathan.ernst at gmail.com  Mon Apr  3 16:58:35 2017
From: nathan.ernst at gmail.com (Nathan Ernst)
Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2017 15:58:35 -0500
Subject: Two variable dictionary comprehension
In-Reply-To: <CADwdpyYjU2M+4pnHP3hZix4CieewQ5Mh0fb=viBAkipi4yzDCw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <eke8p8Fo2uqU1@mid.individual.net>
 <007401d2ac86$dee57320$27b23dae@sambora>
 <CADwdpyYjU2M+4pnHP3hZix4CieewQ5Mh0fb=viBAkipi4yzDCw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPjBxg8cj_wON-C4xfih4g9EPYot8UAP_VV=dr3jBG7fTOeE_Q@mail.gmail.com>

I was a bit surprised when I looked at the language reference for 3.6.x. I
expected there'd be a direct link to comprehensions, but there's not.

You have to know what you're looking for:

6.2.5: List Displays
6.2.6: Set Displays
6.2.7: Dictionary Displays

And, then, click on the appropriate element of the sub grammar to find the
appropriate syntax.

So, it took me about 30 seconds to find the appropriate grammars, when I
expected it'd only take about 5 seconds, since I'm very familiar with the
python docs & how the grammar documentation is laid out.  I can fully
understand how someone less familiar with the documentation might have a
harder time finding the grammar than I did.

FWIW, If one was completely new to Python, even knowing the syntax is known
as a "comprehension" might be unknown. I certainly didn't know what a
comprehension was when I was learning Python. A coworker showed me, some 13
years ago.

Regards,
Nate

On Mon, Apr 3, 2017 at 3:47 PM, Jerry Hill <malaclypse2 at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Mon, Apr 3, 2017 at 10:30 AM, Deborah Swanson
> <python at deborahswanson.net> wrote:
> > Regular updates as the docs are updated would be a good idea too. It's
> > obvious that today's Google isn't up to it, although it occurs to me
> > that I haven't tried Google's site search on python.org.
>
> So, when you search google for the phrase "dict comprehension" or
> "dictionary comprehension", nothing useful comes up for you?  When I
> search either of those phrases, I get lots of useful results, all of
> which spell out how to do what you were originally asking about.  I
> know Google search results are skewed by past usage, but I'm surprised
> that you didn't find anything useful in the first couple of search
> results.
>
> When I do a search for 'dict comprehension' I get a boxed result
> linking to PEP 274 as the first hit, then two Stack Overflow
> questions, both of which demonstrate how to do dictionary
> comprehensions.  Following that is another link to PEP 274, a link to
> the Python docs on data structures (which does talk about dict
> comprehensions, but it's way down on the page), and then links to a
> bunch of tutorials.  If you had to judge based on my search results,
> Google does a fine job of answering python questions, at least when
> you already know the key phrase to look for.
>
> --
> Jerry
> --
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
>


From psmith36 at ewu.edu  Mon Apr  3 17:02:19 2017
From: psmith36 at ewu.edu (Pauline)
Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2017 14:02:19 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Which directory should requests and openpyxl modules be installed to?
Message-ID: <e48b074f-5b7b-40c4-a977-dc09829df73d@googlegroups.com>

Hi, 

  I am a newbie to Python.  I am using Python 2.7.12.  I want to install the modules of requests and openpyxl using pip.  In the Internet, people only said pip install requests, but they do not say in which directory.  I only found one that said install in the script directory within Python. Well, that didn't work.

  How and which directory in the command line to type pip install requests?

Thanks!
Pauline


From nathan.ernst at gmail.com  Mon Apr  3 17:27:32 2017
From: nathan.ernst at gmail.com (Nathan Ernst)
Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2017 16:27:32 -0500
Subject: Which directory should requests and openpyxl modules be installed
 to?
In-Reply-To: <e48b074f-5b7b-40c4-a977-dc09829df73d@googlegroups.com>
References: <e48b074f-5b7b-40c4-a977-dc09829df73d@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <CAPjBxg8CuDxgFOjFdD3zCannHoAUoi2tBDosdGzYdQmFHfQQag@mail.gmail.com>

Hi Pauline,

It depends largely on whether you want to (and have sufficient permissions)
to install for all users or just yourself.

If, on *nix, you're installing site-wide (for all users), typically you'd
do: "sudo pip install <module>" (for python 2) or "sudo pip3 install
<module>" (for python 3).  If you're installing it for yourself, you may
need to add the --prefix=<dir> option. Typically, <dir> would be somewhere
under your home directory. This can be problematic, as you may need to edit
the PYTHONPATH (and possibly LD_LIBRARY_PATH) to point to appropriate
directories. In this case, you're probably better of setting up a virtual
environment. See:
http://python-guide-pt-br.readthedocs.io/en/latest/dev/virtualenvs/. With
virtualenvs, you can setup a per user/project python configuration.

If you're on Windows, you should be able to "py pip install <module>", and
that will install it for you. If you run under and adminstrator cmd prompt
& python has been installed for all users, I *think* the module will be
available for everyone.

Hope this helps.

Regards,
Nate

On Mon, Apr 3, 2017 at 4:02 PM, Pauline <psmith36 at ewu.edu> wrote:

> Hi,
>
>   I am a newbie to Python.  I am using Python 2.7.12.  I want to install
> the modules of requests and openpyxl using pip.  In the Internet, people
> only said pip install requests, but they do not say in which directory.  I
> only found one that said install in the script directory within Python.
> Well, that didn't work.
>
>   How and which directory in the command line to type pip install requests?
>
> Thanks!
> Pauline
> --
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
>


From psmith36 at ewu.edu  Mon Apr  3 17:36:21 2017
From: psmith36 at ewu.edu (psmith36 at ewu.edu)
Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2017 14:36:21 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Which directory should requests and openpyxl modules be installed
 to?
In-Reply-To: <e48b074f-5b7b-40c4-a977-dc09829df73d@googlegroups.com>
References: <e48b074f-5b7b-40c4-a977-dc09829df73d@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <6300b9b4-57b2-4ecb-b67d-73d98f099e81@googlegroups.com>

On Monday, April 3, 2017 at 2:02:30 PM UTC-7, Pauline wrote:
> Hi, 
> 
>   I am a newbie to Python.  I am using Python 2.7.12.  I want to install the modules of requests and openpyxl using pip.  In the Internet, people only said pip install requests, but they do not say in which directory.  I only found one that said install in the script directory within Python. Well, that didn't work.
> 
>   How and which directory in the command line to type pip install requests?
> 
> Thanks!
> Pauline

Hi Nate, 

  Thank you for your prompt reply.  I am just installing it on my computer with administrative privileges. I think I can go into the command line, but then I do not know which directory to go to type:  pip install requests

  If I have installed python 2.7.12 in the Program Files directory, and then there are many directories within the Python 2.7.12 directory, then which directory should I go to install the modules?

  I think my situation is indeed very simple.

Pauline


From python at deborahswanson.net  Mon Apr  3 17:50:56 2017
From: python at deborahswanson.net (Deborah Swanson)
Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2017 14:50:56 -0700
Subject: Two variable dictionary comprehension
In-Reply-To: <CADwdpyYjU2M+4pnHP3hZix4CieewQ5Mh0fb=viBAkipi4yzDCw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <00ac01d2acc4$5ff9a750$27b23dae@sambora>

Jerry Hill wrote, on April 03, 2017 1:48 PM
> 
> On Mon, Apr 3, 2017 at 10:30 AM, Deborah Swanson 
> <python at deborahswanson.net> wrote:
> > Regular updates as the docs are updated would be a good 
> idea too. It's 
> > obvious that today's Google isn't up to it, although it 
> occurs to me 
> > that I haven't tried Google's site search on python.org.
> 
> So, when you search google for the phrase "dict 
> comprehension" or "dictionary comprehension", nothing useful 
> comes up for you?  When I search either of those phrases, I 
> get lots of useful results, all of which spell out how to do 
> what you were originally asking about.  I know Google search 
> results are skewed by past usage, but I'm surprised that you 
> didn't find anything useful in the first couple of search results.
> 
> When I do a search for 'dict comprehension' I get a boxed 
> result linking to PEP 274 as the first hit, then two Stack 
> Overflow questions, both of which demonstrate how to do 
> dictionary comprehensions.  Following that is another link to 
> PEP 274, a link to the Python docs on data structures (which 
> does talk about dict comprehensions, but it's way down on the 
> page), and then links to a bunch of tutorials.  If you had to 
> judge based on my search results, Google does a fine job of 
> answering python questions, at least when you already know 
> the key phrase to look for.
> 
> -- 
> Jerry

Ah, but did you actually try to use the proposed solutions on the two
stackoverflow pages? It's been several weeks now, but I did, and neither
of those two examples fit my situation, which is why I ended up writing
my own, and unsatisfactorily at that.

I'm sorry you think the current edition of Google does such a fine job.
Has it really been that many years ago that the results Google returned
from a  properly formatted boolean search were really useful? I'd
imagine that the old Google would have returned a good 10 pages or more
(probably a lot more) of urls containing the phrase "dict comprehension"
or "dictionary comprehension". in which you'd find a rich variety of
specific situations to glean through. (You wouldn't have needed to
include "python" in the search phrase, since no other programming
language that I know of, or other English usage for that matter, has
dict comprehensions.)

Nowadays Google just comes up with a mere handful of sorta appropriate
urls, and rarely do I find exactly what I'm looking for. And usually
there's nothing related to all your search terms after a page or two of
results. You used to be able to keep sifting through pages of results
after the bulk of urls fitting your criteria had passed, and still find
useful things to look at, sometimes at page 500 or even much, much
farther down the list. It really paid to comb through them all,
especially if you didn't find exactly what you wanted in the early
batch.

But giving users the choice among tens or hundreds of similar pages
(fewer if you specify 100 results per page) doesn't give Google as much
grist for the advertising mill to pump out at the users, hence the
present day useless mess.

Deborah



From nathan.ernst at gmail.com  Mon Apr  3 18:04:31 2017
From: nathan.ernst at gmail.com (Nathan Ernst)
Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2017 17:04:31 -0500
Subject: Which directory should requests and openpyxl modules be installed
 to?
In-Reply-To: <6300b9b4-57b2-4ecb-b67d-73d98f099e81@googlegroups.com>
References: <e48b074f-5b7b-40c4-a977-dc09829df73d@googlegroups.com>
 <6300b9b4-57b2-4ecb-b67d-73d98f099e81@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <CAPjBxg_s7jjD9x2hjRj2_HwVChrya5RNRR=A_AUY1LeWN-FiWg@mail.gmail.com>

If you've installed into Program Files, then you're on Windows, and you've
installed for all users. Start a command prompt by right-clicking on the
start icon, then selecting "Command Prompt (Admin)". This should work on
Windows 8.x and Windows 10. Windows 7, you may need to navigate through
Programs to Windows System\Command Prompt (path might be different - may be
under Windows Accessories), then right-clicking on Command Prompt (Admin).
>From that prompt, you should be able to run "py pip install <module>" and
install it site-wide (for all local users)

On Mon, Apr 3, 2017 at 4:36 PM, <psmith36 at ewu.edu> wrote:

> On Monday, April 3, 2017 at 2:02:30 PM UTC-7, Pauline wrote:
> > Hi,
> >
> >   I am a newbie to Python.  I am using Python 2.7.12.  I want to install
> the modules of requests and openpyxl using pip.  In the Internet, people
> only said pip install requests, but they do not say in which directory.  I
> only found one that said install in the script directory within Python.
> Well, that didn't work.
> >
> >   How and which directory in the command line to type pip install
> requests?
> >
> > Thanks!
> > Pauline
>
> Hi Nate,
>
>   Thank you for your prompt reply.  I am just installing it on my computer
> with administrative privileges. I think I can go into the command line, but
> then I do not know which directory to go to type:  pip install requests
>
>   If I have installed python 2.7.12 in the Program Files directory, and
> then there are many directories within the Python 2.7.12 directory, then
> which directory should I go to install the modules?
>
>   I think my situation is indeed very simple.
>
> Pauline
> --
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
>


From python at deborahswanson.net  Mon Apr  3 18:09:44 2017
From: python at deborahswanson.net (Deborah Swanson)
Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2017 15:09:44 -0700
Subject: Two variable dictionary comprehension
In-Reply-To: <CAPjBxg8cj_wON-C4xfih4g9EPYot8UAP_VV=dr3jBG7fTOeE_Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <00b801d2acc7$006d7b10$27b23dae@sambora>

Nathan Ernst wrote, on April 03, 2017 1:59 PM
> 
> I was a bit surprised when I looked at the language reference 
> for 3.6.x. I expected there'd be a direct link to 
> comprehensions, but there's not.
> 
> You have to know what you're looking for:
> 
> 6.2.5: List Displays
> 6.2.6: Set Displays
> 6.2.7: Dictionary Displays
> 
> And, then, click on the appropriate element of the sub 
> grammar to find the appropriate syntax.
> 
> So, it took me about 30 seconds to find the appropriate 
> grammars, when I expected it'd only take about 5 seconds, 
> since I'm very familiar with the python docs & how the 
> grammar documentation is laid out.  I can fully understand 
> how someone less familiar with the documentation might have a 
> harder time finding the grammar than I did.
> 
> FWIW, If one was completely new to Python, even knowing the 
> syntax is known as a "comprehension" might be unknown. I 
> certainly didn't know what a comprehension was when I was 
> learning Python. A coworker showed me, some 13 years ago.
> 
> Regards,
> Nate

Thanks Nate, for your comprehension of the plight of many, if not most,
newish Python coders. And it certainly doesn't help to ask the list to
fill in some of the holes and be met with criticism for asking, but I
digress. It is what it is.

Before I started reading the list a few months ago, I'd heard of list
comprehensions in an article I'd read, and hardly understood the gist of
it. But look at me now Ma, I've learned not only how to use list
comprehensions but also a small tribe of other kinds of comprehensions!

(If there's a moral to this story, heck if I know exactly what it is.
"Keep on trying" is as good as any.)

Deborah

> On Mon, Apr 3, 2017 at 3:47 PM, Jerry Hill 
> <malaclypse2 at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> > On Mon, Apr 3, 2017 at 10:30 AM, Deborah Swanson 
> > <python at deborahswanson.net> wrote:
> > > Regular updates as the docs are updated would be a good idea too. 
> > > It's obvious that today's Google isn't up to it, although 
> it occurs 
> > > to me that I haven't tried Google's site search on python.org.
> >
> > So, when you search google for the phrase "dict comprehension" or 
> > "dictionary comprehension", nothing useful comes up for 
> you?  When I 
> > search either of those phrases, I get lots of useful 
> results, all of 
> > which spell out how to do what you were originally asking about.  I 
> > know Google search results are skewed by past usage, but 
> I'm surprised 
> > that you didn't find anything useful in the first couple of search 
> > results.
> >
> > When I do a search for 'dict comprehension' I get a boxed result 
> > linking to PEP 274 as the first hit, then two Stack Overflow 
> > questions, both of which demonstrate how to do dictionary 
> > comprehensions.  Following that is another link to PEP 274, 
> a link to 
> > the Python docs on data structures (which does talk about dict 
> > comprehensions, but it's way down on the page), and then links to a 
> > bunch of tutorials.  If you had to judge based on my search 
> results, 
> > Google does a fine job of answering python questions, at least when 
> > you already know the key phrase to look for.
> >
> > --
> > Jerry
> > --
> > https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
> >
> -- 
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
> 



From psmith36 at ewu.edu  Mon Apr  3 18:14:12 2017
From: psmith36 at ewu.edu (psmith36 at ewu.edu)
Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2017 15:14:12 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Which directory should requests and openpyxl modules be installed
 to?
In-Reply-To: <e48b074f-5b7b-40c4-a977-dc09829df73d@googlegroups.com>
References: <e48b074f-5b7b-40c4-a977-dc09829df73d@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <0bf304d0-fadc-4970-be6e-e25b5225bed0@googlegroups.com>

On Monday, April 3, 2017 at 2:02:30 PM UTC-7, Pauline wrote:
> Hi, 
> 
>   I am a newbie to Python.  I am using Python 2.7.12.  I want to install the modules of requests and openpyxl using pip.  In the Internet, people only said pip install requests, but they do not say in which directory.  I only found one that said install in the script directory within Python. Well, that didn't work.
> 
>   How and which directory in the command line to type pip install requests?
> 
> Thanks!
> Pauline

Hi Nate,

  Well, I didn't tell you I am on Windows 7.  When I went to cmd, it was C:\Users\myname.  Then I navigated to where my Python was installed C:\Program 
Files\Python 2.7.12>

  Do I type pip install requests at the end of the arrow, or do I have to go somewhere else?  

Thanks a bunch!
Pauline


From rosuav at gmail.com  Mon Apr  3 18:24:11 2017
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2017 08:24:11 +1000
Subject: Which directory should requests and openpyxl modules be installed
 to?
In-Reply-To: <0bf304d0-fadc-4970-be6e-e25b5225bed0@googlegroups.com>
References: <e48b074f-5b7b-40c4-a977-dc09829df73d@googlegroups.com>
 <0bf304d0-fadc-4970-be6e-e25b5225bed0@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmpikQ30HzkH-dONHCigCGrTX+dd+G_v9WLOAKh1Riv7Cg@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Apr 4, 2017 at 8:14 AM,  <psmith36 at ewu.edu> wrote:
> Hi Nate,
>
>   Well, I didn't tell you I am on Windows 7.  When I went to cmd, it was C:\Users\myname.  Then I navigated to where my Python was installed C:\Program
> Files\Python 2.7.12>
>
>   Do I type pip install requests at the end of the arrow, or do I have to go somewhere else?
>
> Thanks a bunch!

Ah, this shouldn't matter. If you've installed Python and pip
correctly, you should be able to run them from any directory at all,
and they'll do their work correctly.

ChrisA


From nathan.ernst at gmail.com  Mon Apr  3 18:25:45 2017
From: nathan.ernst at gmail.com (Nathan Ernst)
Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2017 17:25:45 -0500
Subject: Which directory should requests and openpyxl modules be installed
 to?
In-Reply-To: <0bf304d0-fadc-4970-be6e-e25b5225bed0@googlegroups.com>
References: <e48b074f-5b7b-40c4-a977-dc09829df73d@googlegroups.com>
 <0bf304d0-fadc-4970-be6e-e25b5225bed0@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <CAPjBxg-K=UwWXN2dRM0wwzXhy-tjg8yno5hO+eD8w5ZKaAREPg@mail.gmail.com>

Hi Pauline,

I was able to infer you're on Windows, but not which version. Try
right-clicking on the start menu to start a command prompt as an
administrator (I'm not sure that was available in Windows 7, and I don't
have access to a Win7 box currently to verify). Failing that, you should be
able to find a shortcut to the command prompt somewhere under
Programs\Windows, Programs\Windows Accessories, or a like named folder.
Just keep looking, it's there. (the parent folder will be named Windows or
Programs - look through all subfolders until you find it). Once you find
it, right-click and select run as Administrator. Then, you should be able
to run the pip install command just fine.

If you cannot find Command Prompt for whatever reason, an alternate way is
to create a short cut on your desktop. Just right-click on your desktop.
Select New\Create Shortcut. When it asks you to select the location of the
file, just enter "cmd.exe".  Hit "next" until the dialog exits. Then,
right-click on the newly created shortcut and select "run as
administrator", then try your pip install command. Where you run the pip
command (i.e. current directory should not matter).

Regards

On Mon, Apr 3, 2017 at 5:14 PM, <psmith36 at ewu.edu> wrote:

> On Monday, April 3, 2017 at 2:02:30 PM UTC-7, Pauline wrote:
> > Hi,
> >
> >   I am a newbie to Python.  I am using Python 2.7.12.  I want to install
> the modules of requests and openpyxl using pip.  In the Internet, people
> only said pip install requests, but they do not say in which directory.  I
> only found one that said install in the script directory within Python.
> Well, that didn't work.
> >
> >   How and which directory in the command line to type pip install
> requests?
> >
> > Thanks!
> > Pauline
>
> Hi Nate,
>
>   Well, I didn't tell you I am on Windows 7.  When I went to cmd, it was
> C:\Users\myname.  Then I navigated to where my Python was installed
> C:\Program
> Files\Python 2.7.12>
>
>   Do I type pip install requests at the end of the arrow, or do I have to
> go somewhere else?
>
> Thanks a bunch!
> Pauline
> --
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
>


From psmith36 at ewu.edu  Mon Apr  3 18:31:53 2017
From: psmith36 at ewu.edu (psmith36 at ewu.edu)
Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2017 15:31:53 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Which directory should requests and openpyxl modules be installed
 to?
In-Reply-To: <e48b074f-5b7b-40c4-a977-dc09829df73d@googlegroups.com>
References: <e48b074f-5b7b-40c4-a977-dc09829df73d@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <306938a9-5743-408e-aa1c-a85da2d0bc71@googlegroups.com>

On Monday, April 3, 2017 at 2:02:30 PM UTC-7, Pauline wrote:
> Hi, 
> 
>   I am a newbie to Python.  I am using Python 2.7.12.  I want to install the modules of requests and openpyxl using pip.  In the Internet, people only said pip install requests, but they do not say in which directory.  I only found one that said install in the script directory within Python. Well, that didn't work.
> 
>   How and which directory in the command line to type pip install requests?
> 
> Thanks!
> Pauline

Hi Chris,

   Really! :) So I can type pip install requests at the prompt: C:\Program Files\Python 2.7.12>pip install requests
   or at C:\>pip install requests

   And the modules would be installed either way?

   Sorry I am also a newbie at windows command line too.

THANKS!!!
Pauline


From nathan.ernst at gmail.com  Mon Apr  3 18:37:01 2017
From: nathan.ernst at gmail.com (Nathan Ernst)
Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2017 17:37:01 -0500
Subject: Two variable dictionary comprehension
In-Reply-To: <00b801d2acc7$006d7b10$27b23dae@sambora>
References: <CAPjBxg8cj_wON-C4xfih4g9EPYot8UAP_VV=dr3jBG7fTOeE_Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <00b801d2acc7$006d7b10$27b23dae@sambora>
Message-ID: <CAPjBxg-MAbZOozhkjxue+k15527x253DxWnQ8oJwaXL_B=QSXg@mail.gmail.com>

No worries, Deborah.

Python is by most measurements a relatively easy/simple language to learn,
but there are always the dusty corners. If you've not already, I recommend
going through the online Python tutorial in it's entirety (
https://docs.python.org/3/tutorial/index.html).

After that, learn the language syntax that wasn't covered in the tutorial
by reading the Language Reference (
https://docs.python.org/3/reference/index.html). The tutorial should be
fairly easy for a straight beginner to follow. The language reference
assumes a little higher-level understanding of programming language
grammar.  The Python Language Reference uses a modified BNF syntax (BNF
being Backus-Naur form. You can read about BNF at
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Backus%E2%80%93Naur_form). To be honest, I'm
not sure what modifications Python uses to BNF, maybe someone else can shed
some light (or skin) on it.

After you'd done those, peruse the standard library. I don't recommend deep
reading there at this point, but at least a cursory reading so you're
cognizant of libraries that are built-in that may help do things may you
want to do now, or in the future (i.e. make a web request, parse JSON or
XML, handle datetimes).

Remember: Python comes with batteries included.

-Nate

On Mon, Apr 3, 2017 at 5:09 PM, Deborah Swanson <python at deborahswanson.net>
wrote:

> Nathan Ernst wrote, on April 03, 2017 1:59 PM
> >
> > I was a bit surprised when I looked at the language reference
> > for 3.6.x. I expected there'd be a direct link to
> > comprehensions, but there's not.
> >
> > You have to know what you're looking for:
> >
> > 6.2.5: List Displays
> > 6.2.6: Set Displays
> > 6.2.7: Dictionary Displays
> >
> > And, then, click on the appropriate element of the sub
> > grammar to find the appropriate syntax.
> >
> > So, it took me about 30 seconds to find the appropriate
> > grammars, when I expected it'd only take about 5 seconds,
> > since I'm very familiar with the python docs & how the
> > grammar documentation is laid out.  I can fully understand
> > how someone less familiar with the documentation might have a
> > harder time finding the grammar than I did.
> >
> > FWIW, If one was completely new to Python, even knowing the
> > syntax is known as a "comprehension" might be unknown. I
> > certainly didn't know what a comprehension was when I was
> > learning Python. A coworker showed me, some 13 years ago.
> >
> > Regards,
> > Nate
>
> Thanks Nate, for your comprehension of the plight of many, if not most,
> newish Python coders. And it certainly doesn't help to ask the list to
> fill in some of the holes and be met with criticism for asking, but I
> digress. It is what it is.
>
> Before I started reading the list a few months ago, I'd heard of list
> comprehensions in an article I'd read, and hardly understood the gist of
> it. But look at me now Ma, I've learned not only how to use list
> comprehensions but also a small tribe of other kinds of comprehensions!
>
> (If there's a moral to this story, heck if I know exactly what it is.
> "Keep on trying" is as good as any.)
>
> Deborah
>
> > On Mon, Apr 3, 2017 at 3:47 PM, Jerry Hill
> > <malaclypse2 at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > On Mon, Apr 3, 2017 at 10:30 AM, Deborah Swanson
> > > <python at deborahswanson.net> wrote:
> > > > Regular updates as the docs are updated would be a good idea too.
> > > > It's obvious that today's Google isn't up to it, although
> > it occurs
> > > > to me that I haven't tried Google's site search on python.org.
> > >
> > > So, when you search google for the phrase "dict comprehension" or
> > > "dictionary comprehension", nothing useful comes up for
> > you?  When I
> > > search either of those phrases, I get lots of useful
> > results, all of
> > > which spell out how to do what you were originally asking about.  I
> > > know Google search results are skewed by past usage, but
> > I'm surprised
> > > that you didn't find anything useful in the first couple of search
> > > results.
> > >
> > > When I do a search for 'dict comprehension' I get a boxed result
> > > linking to PEP 274 as the first hit, then two Stack Overflow
> > > questions, both of which demonstrate how to do dictionary
> > > comprehensions.  Following that is another link to PEP 274,
> > a link to
> > > the Python docs on data structures (which does talk about dict
> > > comprehensions, but it's way down on the page), and then links to a
> > > bunch of tutorials.  If you had to judge based on my search
> > results,
> > > Google does a fine job of answering python questions, at least when
> > > you already know the key phrase to look for.
> > >
> > > --
> > > Jerry
> > > --
> > > https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
> > >
> > --
> > https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
> >
>
>


From greg.ewing at canterbury.ac.nz  Mon Apr  3 19:22:32 2017
From: greg.ewing at canterbury.ac.nz (Gregory Ewing)
Date: Tue, 04 Apr 2017 11:22:32 +1200
Subject: Two variable dictionary comprehension
In-Reply-To: <mailman.81.1491229819.2961.python-list@python.org>
References: <eke8p8Fo2uqU1@mid.individual.net>
 <007401d2ac86$dee57320$27b23dae@sambora>
 <mailman.81.1491229819.2961.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <ekg3pqF58u0U1@mid.individual.net>

Deborah Swanson wrote:
> All my guesses were based on the
> single variable (the most common type) examples I found. I just didn't
> think of putting a colon after 'label', and found nothing to suggest
> that's what I should do.

Hmmm, I'm not sure what the docs could do to make that any
clearer. The key:value syntax is part of *every* dict
comprehension (it's the only thing that distinguishes a
dict comprehension from a set comprehension).
> 
> Despite my earlier words and protestations that I did look for two
> variable dict comprehensions, fairly diligently, I am taking what you
> said seriously.

Don't feel too bad. Sometimes it's hard to know what to google
for, even for experienced people! Also it's hard for doc
writers to anticipate how less experienced people will
think. It wouldn't have occurred to me to use the phrase
"two variable dict comprehension" when writing documentation.

Another thing it's important to be able to do is see through
to the principles behind things, and then use those principles
to solve new problems that aren't explicitly covered in any
docs or examples.

The general principle behind all the forms of comprehension
is that they consist of a prototypical element, followed by
some clauses that generate values for that element.

The syntax for the prototypical element mirrors that of the
corresponding display. So, for a dict comprehension, the
prototypical element has the form 'key:value', where 'key'
and 'value' are arbitrary expressions. From there, it's just
a matter of figuring out what to put into those expressions.

In your case, another part of the puzzle is the fact that
you can unpack a tuple obtained from a for-loop into
variables. That's a general feature of for-loops, both
inside and outside of comprehensions, so you probably
won't find it mentioned explicitly under the heading of
dict comprehensions.

> Maybe it
> would be worthwhile to scrape the whole mess and have it in searchable
> text form.

The HTML Python docs have a "Search" box, although I haven't
really used it so I don't know how well it works. In my experience,
Google with a site search often works a lot better than
search functions provided by sites themselves.

> I hope you won't be miffed though if I still come up empty handed and
> come back here to ask again.
> 
> Deborah
> 


From greg.ewing at canterbury.ac.nz  Mon Apr  3 19:22:40 2017
From: greg.ewing at canterbury.ac.nz (Gregory Ewing)
Date: Tue, 04 Apr 2017 11:22:40 +1200
Subject: Two variable dictionary comprehension
In-Reply-To: <mailman.89.1491240443.2961.python-list@python.org>
References: <1tt4ec5jfvpk37n57bfd8k18stsqlub4bc@4ax.com>
 <003201d2ac9f$946dff60$27b23dae@sambora>
 <mailman.89.1491240443.2961.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <ekg3q0F58m8U1@mid.individual.net>

Deborah Swanson wrote:

> I'll admit that both dictionaries and comprehensions are still a little
> bit fuzzy to me, especially when I get away from the common usages. This
> could be a good exercise to clarify some of the fuzzy areas.

If you're fuzzy about dictionaries in general, it might be a
good idea to concentrate on that for now and come back to
comprehensions later. They're something of an advanced topic;
anything you can do with a comprehension can also be done
in more fundamental ways.

-- 
Greg


From greg.ewing at canterbury.ac.nz  Mon Apr  3 19:22:44 2017
From: greg.ewing at canterbury.ac.nz (Gregory Ewing)
Date: Tue, 04 Apr 2017 11:22:44 +1200
Subject: Two variable dictionary comprehension
In-Reply-To: <mailman.90.1491245308.2961.python-list@python.org>
References: <obu14j$e9r$1@dont-email.me>
 <004a01d2acaa$e8727a40$27b23dae@sambora>
 <mailman.90.1491245308.2961.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <ekg3q4F58m8U2@mid.individual.net>

Deborah Swanson wrote:

> But, if Larry Page and Sergey Brin could tinker around in their dorm
> rooms (or wherever they lived then) and they made the first Google (the
> first search engine?)

It wasn't the first web search engine. But it was the first
one that not only worked, but *kept* working as the web
grew bigger, and bigger, and bigger.

-- 
Greg


From greg.ewing at canterbury.ac.nz  Mon Apr  3 19:22:48 2017
From: greg.ewing at canterbury.ac.nz (Gregory Ewing)
Date: Tue, 04 Apr 2017 11:22:48 +1200
Subject: Two variable dictionary comprehension
In-Reply-To: <mailman.94.1491256246.2961.python-list@python.org>
References: <CADwdpyYjU2M+4pnHP3hZix4CieewQ5Mh0fb=viBAkipi4yzDCw@mail.gmail.com>
 <00ac01d2acc4$5ff9a750$27b23dae@sambora>
 <mailman.94.1491256246.2961.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <ekg3q8F58m8U3@mid.individual.net>

Deborah Swanson wrote:
> I'd
> imagine that the old Google would have returned a good 10 pages or more
> (probably a lot more) of urls containing the phrase "dict comprehension"
> or "dictionary comprehension".

It still does, as far as I can see. I just googled for "dict
comprehension", and the vast majority of results in the first
10 pages relate to Python.

By page 20 it's starting to wander off a bit, but you can
hardly blame it for that. There *are* non-Python web pages that
mention the words "dict" and "comprehension", and how is Google
to know that you don't want those if you don't tell it?

> You used to be able to keep sifting through pages of results
> after the bulk of urls fitting your criteria had passed, and still find
> useful things to look at, sometimes at page 500

Seems to me Google was doing a rather *bad* job if you had
to wade through 500 pages of results to find what you wanted.
I would never have the patience to do that!

Anyhow, the reason Google got brought up was that you were
complaining about difficulty of finding things in the Python
docs. Google *does* turn up the relevant part of the docs in
the very first page of results, so being able to do a direct
text search on the docs wouldn't do any better.

-- 
Greg


From rantingrickjohnson at gmail.com  Mon Apr  3 19:53:40 2017
From: rantingrickjohnson at gmail.com (Rick Johnson)
Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2017 16:53:40 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Text-mode apps (Was :Who are the "spacists"?)
In-Reply-To: <mailman.39.1491100325.2961.python-list@python.org>
References: <CAE6NSRD=LLyj2qdBR_YX_MkubocQCURVivkHg=+62qgZZ3qCQw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPTjJmo6mxAxKQgqNRLFoX6EAnRrwoK6B8f7ids_RbWQ8VoiYg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAE6NSRDsN8vTPkt4E4LU6JGMEqUME3DQ73GPZ-f_7uVCR-aGrw@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.38.1490547441.2634.python-list@python.org>
 <58d80413$0$1595$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <CAE6NSRDpdadqORG1w0529bvvw_Gkoau8xTga3LYS=LfGCmXuqg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPTjJmojKPE3d4y5YEJJuGer174Yv0ZcobJGOp8rmYgYYYefbg@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.57.1490558002.2634.python-list@python.org>
 <626fc6cf-0cf9-4efa-a3ff-f9ca2ddcb7fd@googlegroups.com>
 <58dd12d2$0$1611$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <04f771fe-1c40-48e9-85d7-3b743108c5eb@googlegroups.com>
 <CAE6NSRD8T-ou4p_ChUe6PJvaT4MWYvJL-tHz9knA-RFhNZPUwg@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.21.1491077272.2961.python-list@python.org>
 <d4b156c0-ce23-44c8-8ec7-12a71aa934e1@googlegroups.com>
 <b89b9046-122b-15d9-4605-a4135fdec81c@mrabarnett.plus.com>
 <mailman.39.1491100325.2961.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <ac6023e7-9985-4181-9983-9303de86dd0b@googlegroups.com>

On Saturday, April 1, 2017 at 9:32:17 PM UTC-5, MRAB wrote:
> Sometimes he mentions MUDs, sometimes he mentions Pike, but at least he 
> doesn't rant.

I have not even _begun_ to rant. Yet...



From rosuav at gmail.com  Mon Apr  3 20:07:06 2017
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2017 10:07:06 +1000
Subject: Which directory should requests and openpyxl modules be installed
 to?
In-Reply-To: <306938a9-5743-408e-aa1c-a85da2d0bc71@googlegroups.com>
References: <e48b074f-5b7b-40c4-a977-dc09829df73d@googlegroups.com>
 <306938a9-5743-408e-aa1c-a85da2d0bc71@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmoeL2EE+J-YJkwZvqr2Vz8W-P1v4atzN-Y7jDgLhuEVVQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Apr 4, 2017 at 8:31 AM,  <psmith36 at ewu.edu> wrote:
> Hi Chris,
>
>    Really! :) So I can type pip install requests at the prompt: C:\Program Files\Python 2.7.12>pip install requests
>    or at C:\>pip install requests
>
>    And the modules would be installed either way?
>
>    Sorry I am also a newbie at windows command line too.
>
> THANKS!!!

Correct! The Windows program search path means it'll find pip.exe (if
it doesn't, you'll get a wordy error that used to be called SYS1041),
and then pip itself looks in the registry and other places to figure
out where it should install things.

ChrisA


From rantingrickjohnson at gmail.com  Mon Apr  3 20:13:20 2017
From: rantingrickjohnson at gmail.com (Rick Johnson)
Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2017 17:13:20 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Text-mode apps (Was :Who are the "spacists"?)
In-Reply-To: <58e12641$0$1597$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
References: <CAE6NSRD=LLyj2qdBR_YX_MkubocQCURVivkHg=+62qgZZ3qCQw@mail.gmail.com>
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Message-ID: <c1c8966a-52fa-477e-af6b-f5fb8f0b71af@googlegroups.com>

On Sunday, April 2, 2017 at 11:26:50 AM UTC-5, Steve D'Aprano wrote:
> On Sun, 2 Apr 2017 04:41 pm, Terry Reedy wrote:
> > On 4/1/2017 12:00 PM, Steve D'Aprano wrote:
> > 
> > > example of the Ugly American.
> > 
> > As an American I resent your promotion and perpetuation of
> > an ugly ethno-centric stereotype.
> 
> I'm glad you didn't try to describe it as a *unfair* or
> *unjustified* stereotype, because (let's face it) after
> November 8th 2016, that simply wouldn't fly.

D'Aprano, are you still stewing because Donald J Trump
spanked Hillary's jumbo sized bottom like an unruly
stepchild? You poor widdle partisian hack. I almost feel
sorry for you.

Heck, Trump has to be the most crass and unstatesmanlike
candidate to ever run for the american presidency -- well,
certainly in my lifetime -- so it should have been the
surest win in history for Hillary (or should i say "HER-"?),
but even with the mainstream media planted firmly in her
pocket; Bill Clinton's endless charms; a grotesque
prosession of hollywood celebs, and Obama on the campaign
trail -- she folded like lawn chair! How pathetic. Not to
mention that the democratic party cheated Burnie Sanders. (i
wonder if he's "feelin' the burn"?)

Of course, in their hubris, the Dems put all their chips on
the same old tired "game of firsts" crapola, thinking the
emotional sleight of hand was enough to clinch them the
white house, but fortunately (for america), somebody at the
DNC forgot to tell the Dem leaders that america is getting
*SICK* and *TIRED* of the emotional games.

We only want two types of candidates now: (1) those who are
highly qualified non-partisans, or (2) those who will burn
the old orders to the ground! With Trump, we got the latter.
But as bad a Trump is, he's better than the "business as
usual" we get from Repuke-I-Cans and Demon-Rats.

But Steven, you're not even an american are you? Nope!
You're just another Brit with a stick jambed firmly up his
butt waddling around lecturing Americans about how terrible
we are, but have you ever stopped to consider your own
nation's horrendous history?

  TIP OF THE DAY: "Great Britain" is the imperialist empire
  previously known as "England".

Now sod-off to your local library so you can catch up on,
say, the last umpteen centuries of English tyranny and
global colonization. Oh, and, please note that people who
live in glass houses would be wise not to start a stone
throwing war. just FYI, old buddy. *wink*

> Not all Americans, perhaps not even a majority or a
> plurality, are Ugly Americans, but there are enough of them
> to screw it up for everyone else.

There are bad apples in every bunch; every nation; every
group. Stupidity and ignorance are ubiquitous traits and are
fairly evenly distributed around the globe. So enough with
America bashing already. We Americans are no more guilty of
hate and intolerance than any other nation or peoples on
this planet. Heck, we've only existed for just over 200
years, yet many polmics and media types would have the world
believe that hate and intolerance didn't exist in this
universe until July 4, 1776.

And when has _any_ reigning power in human history ever
acted in a 100% benevolent manner? Hmm? (At least, any one
that matters, that is). If we read our history books, we
would come to the conclusion that tyranny is the natural
order of our human society, and, more evidence of universal
laws in action. Therefore, only through perpetual conflict
can we keep tyranny at bay. For instance, it's not as if we
could tell ol' Henry the Eighth: "You know what Henry... you
can be a real horse's arse!" -- to which he would
"supposedly" reply -- "Indeed. I think i am. And uh, thank
you for the healthy criticism" -- NOT! It is more likely
that anyone who dared critize the king would win a free all-
expense-paid trip to the tower of London, a most horrific
place with a most notorious reputation for cruelty. But the
English had quite a knack for cruelty, eh Steven? Hmm,
remind me again, ol' boy, how many wives did King Henry the
VIII have executed for their "supposed" infidelity? Of
course, there are rumours that one of the executions did not
go as "cleanly" as planned. My observation is that the
botched nature of that execution was a feature, not a bug.
But depravity has been the SOP for centuries in "Merry ol'
England", eh chap?

> It's an ugly stereotype, not because it is a stereotype,
> but because it embodies a set of ugly attitudes and
> behaviours.

Your feeble attempts to legitimize your American bashing are
deplorable at best. For once in your life, Steven, admit
that you're filled with hate and apologize for it. If you
don't like America, fine, don't come here. Is that so
difficult for you? *WHO* we elect and *HOW* we live our
lives is none of your damned business. Personally, i don't
give a monkey's toss who your prime minister is, or what
your pompous Queen wishes to have dipped in gold and
encrusted with diamonds. Personally i think your whole
system of governance is as silly as a clown college frat
party and as dreadful as a three letter sexually transmitted
disease! However, unlike you, i don't feel the need to go
around brow beating every Brit i come into contact with.
What happens in British politics and society is not of my
concern. And likewise, what happens in America politics and
society is not of yours.

But i'll tell you what you _should_ be concerned about, and
that is the religious fundamentalist that you are gleefully
importing into your cities and towns, the religious
fundamentalist who's goal is the destruction of Western
philosophy, society and culture. Why, just a few days ago,
another brainwashed god-bot from the "religion of peace"
struck at the heart of London. "Why, what a surprise?" NOT!
Of course, these attacks _should_ be concerning to you, but
i guess you're too busy bashing americans to notice, eh ol'
boy?

If you and your Euro-trash ilk are willing to stand idle
while hostile invaders destroy your country, well, my
friend, that is certainly your right, but i can tell you one
thing with absolute certainly, and that is that we Americans
didn't spend the last 200+ years defanging christianity just
to let another "religion of wackos" waltz in here and turn
our Democracy into theocratic hell hole. IT AIN'T GONNA
HAPPEN!

One of the oft-cited snobbish insults that regulars in this
group love to fling at those who they do not agree with, is:
<smartarse>Better go learn mandarin!</smartarse>. Well, i've
got news for all you Europeans, it is not Mandarin that you
will be forced to learn, oh no, it will be the regional
language of whatever islamic *SECT* that happens to be
ruling you "at the moment". For your sake, it would be
better if the Chinese take over the world -- hey, they might
be brutal dictators, but at least they don't base their
society on theocratic principles originating in myths and
fairy tales. Trust me, you'd much rather deal with a
rational tyrant than irrational one, because there is no
hope of reasoning with an irrational.

And when, whatever shards of freedom you have now are
snatched from you; and when your wives and daughters are
treated like second and third class citizens; and when *YOU*
are forced to live and die by the archaic whims of an
ideology that exists for the sole purpose of subjugation and
tyranny -- don't you dare, DON'T EFFING YOU *DARE*! -- to
come crawling to America for your liberation, because i
promise you Mr. D'Aprano, your cries will fall on deaf ears.
We already saved your sorry butts once, and what did we get
for that enormous sacrific, huh? We got nothing but decades
of insults and endless eurotrash ingrates!

So forget the library, *PAL*, and instead, sod-off to your
local mosque. Time to start reading the Koran, that way
you'll know who's holy sphincter you need to kiss.

Godspeed ol' boy,

Godspeed!

PS: Don't forget the salad bowl!


From nonemail at spamspamapam.net  Mon Apr  3 21:01:09 2017
From: nonemail at spamspamapam.net (Mark -)
Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2017 01:01:09 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: Text-mode apps (Was :Who are the "spacists"?)
References: <c1c8966a-52fa-477e-af6b-f5fb8f0b71af@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <55246406237188d47ac3c9e04355@nntp.aioe.org>

> On Sunday, April 2, 2017 at 11:26:50 AM UTC-5, Steve D'Aprano wrote:
> 
>> On Sun, 2 Apr 2017 04:41 pm, Terry Reedy wrote:
>> 
>>> On 4/1/2017 12:00 PM, Steve D'Aprano wrote:
>>> 
>>>> example of the Ugly American.
>>>> 
>>> As an American I resent your promotion and perpetuation of an ugly
>>> ethno-centric stereotype.
>>> 
>> I'm glad you didn't try to describe it as a *unfair* or *unjustified*
>> stereotype, because (let's face it) after November 8th 2016, that
>> simply wouldn't fly.
>> 
> D'Aprano, are you still stewing because Donald J Trump spanked

<snip>

Hear hear




From steve+python at pearwood.info  Mon Apr  3 21:04:34 2017
From: steve+python at pearwood.info (Steve D'Aprano)
Date: Tue, 04 Apr 2017 11:04:34 +1000
Subject: Two variable dictionary comprehension
References: <1tt4ec5jfvpk37n57bfd8k18stsqlub4bc@4ax.com>
 <003201d2ac9f$946dff60$27b23dae@sambora>
 <mailman.89.1491240443.2961.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <58e2f123$0$1584$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>

On Tue, 4 Apr 2017 03:27 am, Deborah Swanson wrote:

> I'll admit that both dictionaries and comprehensions are still a little
> bit fuzzy to me, especially when I get away from the common usages. This
> could be a good exercise to clarify some of the fuzzy areas.


As far as comprehensions go, how is your mathematics?

If you remember your set builder notation from maths, list comprehensions
are based on that.

In maths, we say something like:

{2n + 1 : 0 ? n ? 9}

which might be read aloud as "the set of 2 times n, plus 1, such that n is
between 0 and 9 inclusive".

http://www.mathwords.com/s/set_builder_notation.htm

A similar notation might be:

{2n + 1 : n ? {1, 2, 3}}

said as "the set of 2 times n, plus 1, such that n is an element of the set
{1, 2, 3}".


If you're a maths geek like me, this is second nature :-)


Now, Python's list comprehension syntax is based on a similar notation,
except we spell it out in words rather than symbols, using the
familiar "for n in ..." syntax from for-loops instead of : "such that".

{2*n + 1 for n in range(10)}

{2*n + 1 for n in (1, 2, 3)}


A few other differences:

- list comprehensions use [ ] for the outermost brackets;
- set and dict comprehensions use { };
- generator expressions use ( ) (unless the parentheses can be implied).

We're not restricted to mathematical expressions, and can use any Python
expression we like:

[value.method(arg)[1] for (value, arg) in zip(values, arguments)]


translates roughly into this for-loop:

result = []
for (value, arg) in zip(values, arguments):
    result.append(value.method(arg)[1])



Another difference is that comprehensions allow an "if" clause:

[v.method(a)[1] for (v, a) in zip(values, arguments) if v is not None]

translates something like:


result = []
for (v, a) in zip(values, arguments):
    if v is not None:
        result.append(v.method(a)[1])


There's more, but that covers probably 98% of comprehension usage.

And of course, remember that dict comprehensions use the same key:value
syntax as ordinary dict "literals" (the official name is "dict display").

result = {}
for key, value in zip(keys, values):
    result[key] = value


becomes

result = {key:value for (key, value) in zip(keys, values)}

although frankly that's better written as:

dict(zip(keys, values))



Hope this helps!




-- 
Steve
?Cheer up,? they said, ?things could be worse.? So I cheered up, and sure
enough, things got worse.



From larry.martell at gmail.com  Mon Apr  3 21:31:39 2017
From: larry.martell at gmail.com (Larry Martell)
Date: Tue, 04 Apr 2017 01:31:39 +0000
Subject: Two variable dictionary comprehension
In-Reply-To: <qqs5ec9gh83h0qv22fjqb4t7ucjmmi2dg7@4ax.com>
References: <obu14j$e9r$1@dont-email.me>
 <004a01d2acaa$e8727a40$27b23dae@sambora>
 <qqs5ec9gh83h0qv22fjqb4t7ucjmmi2dg7@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <CACwCsY6j8Nkp24tbibh4JTcLLeNKjc=2vAZ7xburYD1zaVv0WQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Apr 3, 2017 at 8:24 PM Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed at ix.netcom.com>
wrote:

> On Mon, 3 Apr 2017 11:48:38 -0700, "Deborah Swanson"
> <python at deborahswanson.net> declaimed the following:
>
> >But, if Larry Page and Sergey Brin could tinker around in their dorm
> >rooms (or wherever they lived then) and they made the first Google (the
> >first search engine?) to boolean search the World Wide Web, it shouldn't
> >be so awfully hard to make a collection of Python docs that's boolean
> >searchable.



> >>Alta Vista predated Google by a few years (it was later absorbed by
> Yahoo).


Don't  forget Ask Jeeves

>
>


From rosuav at gmail.com  Mon Apr  3 22:12:11 2017
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2017 12:12:11 +1000
Subject: Text-mode apps (Was :Who are the "spacists"?)
In-Reply-To: <c1c8966a-52fa-477e-af6b-f5fb8f0b71af@googlegroups.com>
References: <CAE6NSRD=LLyj2qdBR_YX_MkubocQCURVivkHg=+62qgZZ3qCQw@mail.gmail.com>
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 <CAE6NSRDsN8vTPkt4E4LU6JGMEqUME3DQ73GPZ-f_7uVCR-aGrw@mail.gmail.com>
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 <CAE6NSRDpdadqORG1w0529bvvw_Gkoau8xTga3LYS=LfGCmXuqg@mail.gmail.com>
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 <mailman.57.1490558002.2634.python-list@python.org>
 <626fc6cf-0cf9-4efa-a3ff-f9ca2ddcb7fd@googlegroups.com>
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 <ee1ada22-ce6c-4e21-b5ae-cbbbaca0b8ba@googlegroups.com>
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 <obq6fc$219$1@blaine.gmane.org>
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 <58e12641$0$1597$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <c1c8966a-52fa-477e-af6b-f5fb8f0b71af@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmr+ZPTrXfty1nOZhEKNVEXSqYzViOV1U=1zzHMgzy9jew@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Apr 4, 2017 at 10:13 AM, Rick Johnson
<rantingrickjohnson at gmail.com> wrote:
> D'Aprano, are you still stewing because Donald J Trump
> spanked Hillary's jumbo sized bottom like an unruly
> stepchild? You poor widdle partisian hack. I almost feel
> sorry for you.
>
> [snip massively long political rant]

Alright, can the politics please be taken off list? I believe the
appropriate newsgroup for this drivel is comp.lang./dev/null.

ChrisA


From dboland9 at fastmail.fm  Mon Apr  3 22:59:40 2017
From: dboland9 at fastmail.fm (Dave)
Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2017 22:59:40 -0400
Subject: Appending data to a json file
Message-ID: <obv26q$140o$1@gioia.aioe.org>

I created a python program that gets data from a user, stores the data 
as a dictionary in a list of dictionaries.  When the program quits, it 
saves the data file.  My desire is to append the new data to the 
existing data file as is done with purely text files.  However, I can't 
find a way to do that.  The advice I have seen on the web is to load the 
data when the program starts, append the new user input to the list, 
then re-write the data file.  Is that the best way, or is there a better 
way?

Thanks,
Dave


From rantingrickjohnson at gmail.com  Mon Apr  3 23:17:00 2017
From: rantingrickjohnson at gmail.com (Rick Johnson)
Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2017 20:17:00 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Text-mode apps (Was :Who are the "spacists"?)
In-Reply-To: <mailman.52.1491166173.2961.python-list@python.org>
References: <CAE6NSRD=LLyj2qdBR_YX_MkubocQCURVivkHg=+62qgZZ3qCQw@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.42.1491115334.2961.python-list@python.org>
 <58e12641$0$1597$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <201704021330.44532.gheskett@shentel.net>
 <mailman.52.1491166173.2961.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <59674990-b7f9-4d10-822c-4da918fc3176@googlegroups.com>

On Sunday, April 2, 2017 at 3:49:43 PM UTC-5, Gene Heskett wrote:
> On Sunday 02 April 2017 12:26:40 Steve D'Aprano wrote:
> > On Sun, 2 Apr 2017 04:41 pm, Terry Reedy wrote:
> > > On 4/1/2017 12:00 PM, Steve D'Aprano wrote:
> > > > 
> > > > example of the Ugly American.
> > > 
> > > As an American I resent your promotion and perpetuation
> > > of an ugly ethno-centric stereotype.
> >
> > I'm glad you didn't try to describe it as a *unfair* or
> > *unjustified* stereotype, because (let's face it) after
> > November 8th 2016, that simply wouldn't fly.
> 
> While I too detest that label, I will have to admit that I
> am one of the conservatives, believing our Constitution and
> Bill of Rights have been used as TP by the "establishment"
> over the last 65+ years, who enabled that surprise. 

Saying what you just said, in _this_ group at least, can
bring some nasty rebukes. And not because it is wrong, no,
but because the proggie-bots will accuse you of being (1) a
racist opining for the return of slavery, (2) a homophobic
who would throw people from rooftops, (3) a bigot, (4)
something else that is equally "bad", or (5) all of the
above.

Hopefully though, like me, you're undeterred by lies and
slander because your skin is thicker than that of the
average grape. As for me, i do not want america society to
return to 1950, no, i want to american _ideals_ to return to
July 4, 1776. And this time we would: "get it right". The
first order of business would be to re-write the
constitution in a manner that will remove the subtle
semantical errors that have caused so much trouble for these
last 200+ years. Starting with the Declaration of
Independence. 

(emphasis *MINE*!)

  "When in the course of human events, it becomes
  *NECESSARY* for one people to dissolve the political bands
  which have connected them with another, and to assume
  among the powers of the earth the *SEPARATE* and *EQUAL*
  station to which the laws of nature and of [the natural
  processes that] *ENTITLE* them, a decent respect to the
  [reputation] of [humankind] requires that they should
  declare the causes which impel them to the separation."
  
  "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all
  [people] are created equal, that they are endowed by their
  [existence] with certain unalienable rights: that among
  these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. --
  that to *SECURE* these rights, governments are instituted
  among [people], deriving their just powers from the
  *CONSENT* of the governed, -- That whenever any form of
  government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the
  *RIGHT* of the people to alter or to abolish it, and to
  institute new government, laying its foundation on such
  *PRINCIPLES* and organizing its powers in such *FORM*, as
  to them shall seem most likely to effect their safety and
  happiness."
  
  "Prudence, indeed, will dictate that governments long
  established should *NOT* be changed for _light_ and
  _transient_ causes; and accordingly, all experience hath
  shewn, that [humankind] are more disposed to suffer while
  evils are "sufferable", than to right themselves by
  abolishing the forms to which they are "accustomed". But
  when a *LOOOONG* train of abuses and usurpations pursuing
  invariably the same [*GOALS* -- to achieve an absolute
  despotism --], it is their *RIGHT*, it is their *DUTY*, to
  throw off such government and to provide new guards for
  their future security. -- Such has been the patient
  sufferance of these [people]; and such is now the
  *NECESSITY* which constrains them to alter their former
  systems of government. The history of the present [United
  States Of America] is a history of repeated injuries and
  usurpations [-- and quite frankly, a charade of vile
  hypocrisy! --], all having in direct object the
  establishment of an absolute tyranny over these [people].
  To prove this, let facts be submitted to a candid world."

  [List of modern grievances snipped for bandwidth]
      

Simply removing all the misogynist references and
patriarchal terms is a good start. But what is important to
realize, is that, removing these mistakes does not undermine
the intent of this document, no, it merely broadens and
purifies that intent. The fact is, this document has caused
a social transformation that has reverberated around the
world.

(Rhetorically i ask...)
    
What _is_ "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness"? 

Is it merely the monotone words of a random child standing
on a random grade-school stage reenacting the events of our
forefathers for the sake of mere "cute spectacle"? Or is it
something more? -- I believe it be. -- I believe it to be
one of the most *PROFOUND* realizations of social justice
that the human mind has *EVER* conceived. A culmination of
many thousand years of trial and error, and the product of
much pain and suffering. The American Declaration Of
Independence marks an epoch in our collective human social
and intellectual evolution, a specific time, when a flash of
profundity *RENDERED* the blurry concepts of "self-evident
truths" and "just social contracts" *CRYSTAL CLEAR* -- for
*ALL* humans to see... 

Anyone who can read those famous lines i quoted above
without having a small tear well-up in their eye -- the same
kind of joyous and fearful tear that would well-up when
watching the first man walk on the moon -- is not a healthy
human being. Something vital is missing from this person.

> Wash., DC has been turned into a polluted swamp that needed
> drained and cleaned up, and the Donald was the only one
> that wasn't part of the same old, same old, bull crap
> establishment, and with enough money to run.

The Dems and Repubs have run this country into the ground
long enough. It's time for these antiquated parties, one of
which whom, was the party of slavery, to step aside, and
allow the next generation to take the reigns.

> However, I'll be the first to admit I am less than
> impressed with his efforts vis-a-vis global warming. He, I
> suspect, will be a 1 term president unless he starts
> listening to the technical people's warnings.

Short of a massive and sudden temperature increase, I doubt
he'll loose the election over global warming. With North
Korea, China, Russia and radical islam, we have many more
pressing existential matters which require our immediate
attention. Nuclear war is far more dangerous to this planet
(and its inhabitants) than global warming or climate change
could ever be. And for those who think we've already lived
through the darkest days of nuclear threat, well, think
again, because thanks to the spread of terrorism (and roque
states like NK) we are about to enter the most dangerous
stage of this evolution. Mutually Assured Destruction
fizzles away in the face of crackpot tyrants and brainwashed
god bots.

> I'd also make the prediction that the 2020 winner will
> _not_ be from the establishment. Maybe not even from the
> two party system. I am hoping that this will cause all
> (surviving) parties to do some navel gazing,

I'm hoping it will finally drive a wooden stake through
both of their hearts!

> and contemplating not how to enrich the constituent
> businesses they own under the table, but maybe, actually
> work for the common good. 

  The American Republic will endure until the day Congress
  discovers that it can bribe the public with the public's
  money -- Alexis de Tocqueville
  
That dire prediction became true the day FDR wiggled his
obese behind into the presidents desk chair in the oval
office. So, now, not only are we a welfare state, our
politicians are firmly planted in the pockets of
multinational corporations. Both parties!

> Taking money completely out of the equation would be one
> way, 

Many people may disagree on where exactly the line between
power and absolute power is drawn, but one things for sure:
the power to print money, command the economy, *AND* use
coercion against citizens -- is far too much power in the
hands of one entity. Alexis knew what would happen. Sadly,
we ignored him.

> but you could hear the gored oxen that would wound fatally
> clear out to Pluto, without a radio. Human avarice being
> what it is, whether I'll live long enough to see that
> happen isn't up to me. At 82, it doesn't look like near as
> big a chance as it did when I was 60.

There will always be corruption...

There will always be crime...

There will always be hate...

There will always be intolerance...

Etc...

Don't fall for the fallacy of believing that these things
can edradicated from our universe. We can reduce them, but
we cannot destory them. Personally, I'm convinced that every
process in our universe is just as important as any other.
We humans become confused because we attempt to interpret
the meaning of our universe from a self-centric viewpoint.
But this analysis is wrong (GIGO!). The universe does not
exist for our sake. Realizing this simple truth is the first
step to understanding what our universe truely _is_, and how
we fit into it. All else will follow logically...

> > 
> > Not all Americans, perhaps not even a majority or a
> > plurality, are Ugly Americans, but there are enough of
> > them to screw it up for everyone else.
> >
> Generally, I try to stay out of the Ugly camp. Then I look
> in the mirror and know its hopeless. :(

Hey, don't be so judgemental about yourself, that's what
everyone else is for. Those are good paying Union jobs, and
we don't give them up without a fight. ;-)


From malaclypse2 at gmail.com  Mon Apr  3 23:21:20 2017
From: malaclypse2 at gmail.com (Jerry Hill)
Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2017 23:21:20 -0400
Subject: Two variable dictionary comprehension
In-Reply-To: <00ac01d2acc4$5ff9a750$27b23dae@sambora>
References: <CADwdpyYjU2M+4pnHP3hZix4CieewQ5Mh0fb=viBAkipi4yzDCw@mail.gmail.com>
 <00ac01d2acc4$5ff9a750$27b23dae@sambora>
Message-ID: <CADwdpybGO3GOMEQCiDrQm0xchsA+c5e0va9VZ9ASqL8b-mzrmQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Apr 3, 2017 at 5:50 PM, Deborah Swanson
<python at deborahswanson.net> wrote:
> Ah, but did you actually try to use the proposed solutions on the two
> stackoverflow pages? It's been several weeks now, but I did, and neither
> of those two examples fit my situation, which is why I ended up writing
> my own, and unsatisfactorily at that.

Well, that first Stack Overflow link has the following as the first
part of the highest scored answer:

  In Python 2.6 and earlier, the dict constructor can receive an
iterable of key/value pairs:
  d = dict((key, value) for (key, value) in iterable)

  From Python 2.7 and 3 onwards, you can just use the dict
comprehension syntax directly:
  d = {key: value for (key, value) in iterable}

Isn't that second form the exact thing you were looking for, back in
your first post?

> I'm sorry you think the current edition of Google does such a fine job.
> Has it really been that many years ago that the results Google returned
> from a  properly formatted boolean search were really useful? I'd
> imagine that the old Google would have returned a good 10 pages or more
> (probably a lot more) of urls containing the phrase "dict comprehension"
> or "dictionary comprehension". in which you'd find a rich variety of
> specific situations to glean through. (You wouldn't have needed to
> include "python" in the search phrase, since no other programming
> language that I know of, or other English usage for that matter, has
> dict comprehensions.)

Is this not your experience today?  I just browsed through the first 5
pages of search results for the phrase "dict comprehension" (without
the quotes), and the results seem to be pretty on point.  It's mostly
results talking about python dict comprehensions, general python pages
talking about all sorts of comprehensions (dict, list, and set), and
as you get deeper into the result pages, you start to see some entries
for the word "comprehension" in dictionaries too, which seems like a
reasonable thing to end up mixed in with the desired results.  It goes
on in that vein out to page 11 or so, at which point things seem to
devolve a bit.

I'd be totally sympathetic with your plight if you didn't know the key
phrase 'dict comprehension' to find all of that information.  I'm just
not seeing the poor results you seem to be getting from Google once
you know the term.

-- 
Jerry


From torriem at gmail.com  Mon Apr  3 23:26:41 2017
From: torriem at gmail.com (Michael Torrie)
Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2017 21:26:41 -0600
Subject: Appending data to a json file
In-Reply-To: <obv26q$140o$1@gioia.aioe.org>
References: <obv26q$140o$1@gioia.aioe.org>
Message-ID: <077058d6-6f91-a664-845d-17c7ef309085@gmail.com>

On 04/03/2017 08:59 PM, Dave wrote:
> I created a python program that gets data from a user, stores the data 
> as a dictionary in a list of dictionaries.  When the program quits, it 
> saves the data file.  My desire is to append the new data to the 
> existing data file as is done with purely text files.  However, I can't 
> find a way to do that.  The advice I have seen on the web is to load the 
> data when the program starts, append the new user input to the list, 
> then re-write the data file.  Is that the best way, or is there a better 
> way?

If you're talking about a plain text file, can't you just open the file
for append mode and write away to it?

f = open("file","at")
with f:
   f.write("More text.\n")




From eryksun at gmail.com  Mon Apr  3 23:57:11 2017
From: eryksun at gmail.com (eryk sun)
Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2017 03:57:11 +0000
Subject: Which directory should requests and openpyxl modules be installed
 to?
In-Reply-To: <v6u5ec9o8eic2175k0ghq2g5fs8vaotnf5@4ax.com>
References: <e48b074f-5b7b-40c4-a977-dc09829df73d@googlegroups.com>
 <306938a9-5743-408e-aa1c-a85da2d0bc71@googlegroups.com>
 <v6u5ec9o8eic2175k0ghq2g5fs8vaotnf5@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <CACL+1au10GGvXMxQHePdeTag8Msj5rBY0ggbhjYPtSRJQ2-SAg@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Apr 4, 2017 at 1:45 AM, Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed at ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>
> C:\Users\Wulfraed>assoc .py
> .py=Python.File
>
> C:\Users\Wulfraed>ftype python.file
> python.file="C:\Python27\python.exe" "%1" %*

The Windows shell stores the user file-association choice in
HKCU\Software\Microsoft\Windows\CurrentVersion\Explorer\FileExts\.py\UserChoice.
The cmd shell's assoc and ftype commands only modify a subset of
system associations in HKLM\Software\Classes. If keys with the same
names exist in HKCU\Software\Classes (e.g. Python and the launcher
were installed just for the current user), they will override the
system associations. Moreover, the user may be using a totally
different ProgId -- usually due to misconfiguration, which is
unfortunately all too common of a problem.

A couple of common misconfigurations are
HKCU\Software\Classes\py_auto_file and
HKCU\Software\Classes\Applications\python.exe. These get created
automatically by the Windows shell, and will almost always have a
broken "open" command that doesn't pass command-line arguments. By
using these ProgIds you're also missing the new drop handler that
Steve Dower wrote to support dropping files with non-ANSI names. It's
best to switch back to using Python.File, Python.NoConFile and
friends.

The UserChoice key is doubly secured via its "Hash" value plus a
security descriptor that prevents the current user from modifying
values in the key. This is to prevent direct modification. The most
you can do in code is to delete the key to have the shell reset from
defaults. By design, the only way to directly change the user choice
is via the GUI. Use the Control Panel's "Default Programs" app. Select
"Associate a filetype or protocol...". Type ".py" to advance in the
list, double-click on the entry, and select the app to use. If
Python.File is configured to use the launcher, the "Python" entry in
this application list should have an icon with a rocket on it.


From mok-kong.shen at t-online.de  Tue Apr  4 01:15:40 2017
From: mok-kong.shen at t-online.de (Mok-Kong Shen)
Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2017 07:15:40 +0200
Subject: Version 2 of my natural language steganographical scheme released
Message-ID: <obva5q$6o5$1@news.albasani.net>


Version 2 of my natural language steganographical scheme 
WORDLISTTEXTSTEGANOGRAPHY
is available on my home page http://mokkong-shen.privat.t-online.de , 
together with
a few other cryptological and steganographical software of mine. See update
notes in it for the differences to earlier versions. I regret that in 
the earlier
versions a sentence was unfortunately missing in the explanation of how 
to do the
examples, with the consequence that new users might have difficulties 
with the
examples.

M. K. Shen


From python at deborahswanson.net  Tue Apr  4 01:18:22 2017
From: python at deborahswanson.net (Deborah Swanson)
Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2017 22:18:22 -0700
Subject: Two variable dictionary comprehension
In-Reply-To: <CAPjBxg-MAbZOozhkjxue+k15527x253DxWnQ8oJwaXL_B=QSXg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <011401d2ad02$e1bc7590$27b23dae@sambora>

Thank you Nate, for all these sources to study. Python was very easy for
me to learn in 2 online courses, but it's been all uphill since then.
I've learned a lot and for that I'm grateful, but there's so much
farther to go.

I've appreciated our discussions, but I am in fact a very sick person
and my illness has come back again tonight. I can probably reply to a
few more posts and then you won't see me again for awhile.

But many thanks again, and I will begin reading the material you
suggested.

Deborah


Nathan Ernst wrote, on Monday, April 03, 2017 3:37 PM

No worries, Deborah.


Python is by most measurements a relatively easy/simple language to
learn, but there are always the dusty corners. If you've not already, I
recommend going through the online Python tutorial in it's entirety
(https://docs.python.org/3/tutorial/index.html).


After that, learn the language syntax that wasn't covered in the
tutorial by reading the Language Reference
(https://docs.python.org/3/reference/index.html). The tutorial should be
fairly easy for a straight beginner to follow. The language reference
assumes a little higher-level understanding of programming language
grammar.  The Python Language Reference uses a modified BNF syntax (BNF
being Backus-Naur form. You can read about BNF at
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Backus%E2%80%93Naur_form). To be honest,
I'm not sure what modifications Python uses to BNF, maybe someone else
can shed some light (or skin) on it.


After you'd done those, peruse the standard library. I don't recommend
deep reading there at this point, but at least a cursory reading so
you're cognizant of libraries that are built-in that may help do things
may you want to do now, or in the future (i.e. make a web request, parse
JSON or XML, handle datetimes).


Remember: Python comes with batteries included.


-Nate


On Mon, Apr 3, 2017 at 5:09 PM, Deborah Swanson
<python at deborahswanson.net> wrote:

Nathan Ernst wrote, on April 03, 2017 1:59 PM
>
> I was a bit surprised when I looked at the language reference
> for 3.6.x. I expected there'd be a direct link to
> comprehensions, but there's not.
>
> You have to know what you're looking for:
>
> 6.2.5: List Displays
> 6.2.6: Set Displays
> 6.2.7: Dictionary Displays
>
> And, then, click on the appropriate element of the sub
> grammar to find the appropriate syntax.
>
> So, it took me about 30 seconds to find the appropriate
> grammars, when I expected it'd only take about 5 seconds,
> since I'm very familiar with the python docs & how the
> grammar documentation is laid out.  I can fully understand
> how someone less familiar with the documentation might have a
> harder time finding the grammar than I did.
>
> FWIW, If one was completely new to Python, even knowing the
> syntax is known as a "comprehension" might be unknown. I
> certainly didn't know what a comprehension was when I was
> learning Python. A coworker showed me, some 13 years ago.
>
> Regards,
> Nate

Thanks Nate, for your comprehension of the plight of many, if not most,
newish Python coders. And it certainly doesn't help to ask the list to
fill in some of the holes and be met with criticism for asking, but I
digress. It is what it is.

Before I started reading the list a few months ago, I'd heard of list
comprehensions in an article I'd read, and hardly understood the gist of
it. But look at me now Ma, I've learned not only how to use list
comprehensions but also a small tribe of other kinds of comprehensions!

(If there's a moral to this story, heck if I know exactly what it is.
"Keep on trying" is as good as any.)

Deborah


> On Mon, Apr 3, 2017 at 3:47 PM, Jerry Hill
> <malaclypse2 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > On Mon, Apr 3, 2017 at 10:30 AM, Deborah Swanson
> > <python at deborahswanson.net> wrote:
> > > Regular updates as the docs are updated would be a good idea too.
> > > It's obvious that today's Google isn't up to it, although
> it occurs
> > > to me that I haven't tried Google's site search on python.org.
> >
> > So, when you search google for the phrase "dict comprehension" or
> > "dictionary comprehension", nothing useful comes up for
> you?  When I
> > search either of those phrases, I get lots of useful
> results, all of
> > which spell out how to do what you were originally asking about.  I
> > know Google search results are skewed by past usage, but
> I'm surprised
> > that you didn't find anything useful in the first couple of search
> > results.
> >
> > When I do a search for 'dict comprehension' I get a boxed result
> > linking to PEP 274 as the first hit, then two Stack Overflow
> > questions, both of which demonstrate how to do dictionary
> > comprehensions.  Following that is another link to PEP 274,
> a link to
> > the Python docs on data structures (which does talk about dict
> > comprehensions, but it's way down on the page), and then links to a
> > bunch of tutorials.  If you had to judge based on my search
> results,
> > Google does a fine job of answering python questions, at least when
> > you already know the key phrase to look for.
> >
> > --
> > Jerry
> > --
> > https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
> >

> --
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
>



From dieter at handshake.de  Tue Apr  4 01:23:33 2017
From: dieter at handshake.de (dieter)
Date: Tue, 04 Apr 2017 07:23:33 +0200
Subject: Obtain Ceritificate Information from Invalid or Self-Signed
 Certificate in Python
References: <CAKueL6eSh9OxNLz_hvUwM0xNyc770Ax0FtwUe58WnaWS3AOj-Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <87efx8lp9m.fsf@handshake.de>

Kenneth Buckler <kenneth.buckler at gmail.com> writes:
> I'm working on a Python 2.7.13 (Win x64) script to verify SSL certificates,
> and alert for problems. Specifically, I'm looking to return the date the
> cert expires or did expire. However, I'm running into an issue where the
> script will return information only if the certificate is valid.

You may need to tell the Python socket library that you are
ready to accept any certificate - even expired ones.

I see below, that you already have tried that
("conn._https_verify_certificates(enable=False)") but it failed.
The reason: "_https_verify_certificates" is a function of the "ssl"
module, not a method of "SSLSocket" instances.
It is used to switch (globally) the behavior for verifying certificates,
not locally for a specific "SSLSocket".

Given the architecture of the "ssl" module (with the component
classes "socket", "SSLContext" and "SSLSocket"), the most likely
place to control the certificate verification is the "SSLContext".
And indeed, it has an attribute "verify_mode" to control this behaviour.


Likely, there is an alternative to disable certificate
verification in your case: the "ssl" module has the function
"get_server_certificate"; you could try to perform a normal
ssl connection and if this fails due to certificate problems,
you could fetch the certificate with the above function and analyse it.

> ...
> Per https://docs.python.org/2/library/ssl.html I tried to use
> conn._https_verify_certificates(enable=False) to disable certificate
> validation, but get an error that the attribute _https_verify_certificates
> doesn't exist.
> ...



From dieter at handshake.de  Tue Apr  4 01:31:30 2017
From: dieter at handshake.de (dieter)
Date: Tue, 04 Apr 2017 07:31:30 +0200
Subject: Appending data to a json file
References: <obv26q$140o$1@gioia.aioe.org>
Message-ID: <87a87wlowd.fsf@handshake.de>

Dave <dboland9 at fastmail.fm> writes:

> I created a python program that gets data from a user, stores the data
> as a dictionary in a list of dictionaries.  When the program quits, it
> saves the data file.  My desire is to append the new data to the
> existing data file as is done with purely text files.

Usually, you cannot do that:
"JSON" stands for "JavaScript Object Notation": it is a text representation
for a single (!) JavaScript object. The concatenation of two
JSON representations is not a valid JSON representation.
Thus, you cannot expect that after such a concatenation, a single
call to "load" will give you back complete information (it might
be that a sequence of "load"s works).

Personally, I would avoid concatenated JSON representations.
Instead, I would read in (i.e. "load") the existing data,
construct a Python object from the old and the new data (likely in the form
of a list) and then write it out (i.e. "dump") again.



From python-oren at ben-kiki.org  Tue Apr  4 01:50:53 2017
From: python-oren at ben-kiki.org (Oren Ben-Kiki)
Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2017 08:50:53 +0300
Subject: Appending data to a json file
In-Reply-To: <87a87wlowd.fsf@handshake.de>
References: <obv26q$140o$1@gioia.aioe.org> <87a87wlowd.fsf@handshake.de>
Message-ID: <CADJiDhuy5ot47fS7XNT5rdc+fnqjQN3tBMpRBRnoxa3EwxAzQw@mail.gmail.com>

You _can_ just extend a JSON file without loading it, but it will not be
"fun".

Say the JSON file contains a top-level array. The final significant
character in it would be a ']'. So, you can read just a reasonably-sized
block from the end of the file, find the location of the final ']',
overwrite it with a ',' followed by your additional array entry/entries,
with a final ']'.

If the JSON file contains a top-level object, the final significant
character would be a '}'. Overwrite it with a ',' followed by your
additional object key/value pairs, with a final '}'.

Basically, if what you want to append is of the same kind as the content of
the file (array appended to array, or object to object):

- Locate final significant character in the file
- Locate first significant character in your appended data, replace it with
a ','
- Overwrite the final significant character in the file with your patched
data

It isn't elegant or very robust, but if you want to append to a very large
JSON array (for example, some log file?), then it could be very efficient
and effective.

Or, you could use YAML ;-)


On Tue, Apr 4, 2017 at 8:31 AM, dieter <dieter at handshake.de> wrote:

> Dave <dboland9 at fastmail.fm> writes:
>
> > I created a python program that gets data from a user, stores the data
> > as a dictionary in a list of dictionaries.  When the program quits, it
> > saves the data file.  My desire is to append the new data to the
> > existing data file as is done with purely text files.
>
> Usually, you cannot do that:
> "JSON" stands for "JavaScript Object Notation": it is a text representation
> for a single (!) JavaScript object. The concatenation of two
> JSON representations is not a valid JSON representation.
> Thus, you cannot expect that after such a concatenation, a single
> call to "load" will give you back complete information (it might
> be that a sequence of "load"s works).
>
> Personally, I would avoid concatenated JSON representations.
> Instead, I would read in (i.e. "load") the existing data,
> construct a Python object from the old and the new data (likely in the form
> of a list) and then write it out (i.e. "dump") again.
>
> --
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
>


From python at deborahswanson.net  Tue Apr  4 01:53:15 2017
From: python at deborahswanson.net (Deborah Swanson)
Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2017 22:53:15 -0700
Subject: Two variable dictionary comprehension
In-Reply-To: <ekg3pqF58u0U1@mid.individual.net>
Message-ID: <011b01d2ad07$c1324840$27b23dae@sambora>

Gregory Ewing wrote, on Monday, April 03, 2017 4:23 PM
> 
> Deborah Swanson wrote:
> > All my guesses were based on the
> > single variable (the most common type) examples I found. I just
didn't 
> > think of putting a colon after 'label', and found nothing to suggest

> > that's what I should do.
> 
> Hmmm, I'm not sure what the docs could do to make that any 
> clearer. The key:value syntax is part of *every* dict 
> comprehension (it's the only thing that distinguishes a dict 
> comprehension from a set comprehension).

I guess I saw a lot of examples that weren't clearly using the key:value
syntax, and all of it was so unfamiliar, that pattern just didn't stand
out to me. But it's starting to now, and that's the direction I need to
go in for dict comprehensions.

> > Despite my earlier words and protestations that I did look for two 
> > variable dict comprehensions, fairly diligently, I am taking what
you 
> > said seriously.
> 
> Don't feel too bad. Sometimes it's hard to know what to 
> google for, even for experienced people! Also it's hard for 
> doc writers to anticipate how less experienced people will 
> think. It wouldn't have occurred to me to use the phrase "two 
> variable dict comprehension" when writing documentation.

Yes, I was pretty sure the terminology I phrased the question with
wasn't correct, but I didn't know the right words to say, or where to
look them up, so I just tried to be as descriptive as I could.

But I accomplished my purpose in asking the question, even if it was
poorly put, and I've received quite a bit of good information, the
terminology I couldn't put my finger on, and some solid pointers of
directions to go in the future.
 
> Another thing it's important to be able to do is see through
> to the principles behind things, and then use those 
> principles to solve new problems that aren't explicitly 
> covered in any docs or examples.

Ah, yes, there's the rub. But it's true, from cooking to car mechanics
to Python coding, the key is in becoming familiar with the subject, and
hands on is the best teacher. (Yes, yes, we could have a discussion
about the role of education, but I'll say that it's seeing it all in
motion for yourself many times that seals the teaching into something
you know and don't need to be told.)

> The general principle behind all the forms of comprehension
> is that they consist of a prototypical element, followed by 
> some clauses that generate values for that element.
> 
> The syntax for the prototypical element mirrors that of the 
> corresponding display. So, for a dict comprehension, the 
> prototypical element has the form 'key:value', where 'key' 
> and 'value' are arbitrary expressions. From there, it's just 
> a matter of figuring out what to put into those expressions.
> 
> In your case, another part of the puzzle is the fact that
> you can unpack a tuple obtained from a for-loop into
> variables. That's a general feature of for-loops, both
> inside and outside of comprehensions, so you probably
> won't find it mentioned explicitly under the heading of
> dict comprehensions.
> 
> > Maybe it would be worthwhile to scrape the whole mess and have it in

> > searchable text form.
> 
> The HTML Python docs have a "Search" box, although I haven't 
> really used it so I don't know how well it works. 

It sucks, in a phrase. You're presented with a list of web page titles,
very few of which seem to have much to do with the Python language topic
you type into the search box. If you're interested in theoretical
dissertations you'll be pleased, but if you're looking for barebones
mechanical descriptions of the language you'll be wasting your time, in
my experience.

> In my 
> experience, Google with a site search often works a lot 
> better than search functions provided by sites themselves.

Yes, I used to use Google's site search on a regular basis but somehow
got out of the habit. It likely can't be beat if you know which website
will have the answer you're looking for, but the old Google truly shown
at finding places you didn't already know about.

> > I hope you won't be miffed though if I still come up empty handed
and 
> > come back here to ask again.
> > 
> > Deborah
> > 
> -- 
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
> 



From python at deborahswanson.net  Tue Apr  4 02:22:17 2017
From: python at deborahswanson.net (Deborah Swanson)
Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2017 23:22:17 -0700
Subject: Two variable dictionary comprehension
In-Reply-To: <ekg3q8F58m8U3@mid.individual.net>
Message-ID: <011e01d2ad0b$cf6a9580$27b23dae@sambora>

Gregory Ewing wrote, on Monday, April 03, 2017 4:23 PM
> 
> Deborah Swanson wrote:
> > I'd
> > imagine that the old Google would have returned a good 10 pages or 
> > more (probably a lot more) of urls containing the phrase "dict 
> > comprehension" or "dictionary comprehension".
> 
> It still does, as far as I can see. I just googled for "dict 
> comprehension", and the vast majority of results in the first 
> 10 pages relate to Python.
> 
> By page 20 it's starting to wander off a bit, but you can 
> hardly blame it for that. There *are* non-Python web pages 
> that mention the words "dict" and "comprehension", and how is 
> Google to know that you don't want those if you don't tell it?

Yes, I searched on "python dict comprehension" because I'd gottion the
idea somewhere that the "python" was necessary in this Brave New Google
world. I'll remember to omit "python" in the future when searching for
phrases most frequently found in Python. Boolean rules were so much
easier to learn and remember.
 
> > You used to be able to keep sifting through pages of results after
the 
> > bulk of urls fitting your criteria had passed, and still find useful

> > things to look at, sometimes at page 500
> 
> Seems to me Google was doing a rather *bad* job if you had
> to wade through 500 pages of results to find what you wanted.
> I would never have the patience to do that!

Well, it helped if you used 100 search results per page and other
various and sundry tools. But patience was good too. It depended how bad
you wanted the answer and how good a skim reader you are. Now I rarely
find anything I want unless I'm shopping for something to buy, but even
then I have to wade through all the garbage results intended to entice
the impulse buyer in me, which I ditched decades ago.
 
> Anyhow, the reason Google got brought up was that you were 
> complaining about difficulty of finding things in the Python 
> docs. Google *does* turn up the relevant part of the docs in 
> the very first page of results, so being able to do a direct 
> text search on the docs wouldn't do any better.

We can duke that out some other time. My illness is overcoming me fast
though, so it won't be right away. 

Deborah

> -- 
> Greg



From python at deborahswanson.net  Tue Apr  4 02:35:46 2017
From: python at deborahswanson.net (Deborah Swanson)
Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2017 23:35:46 -0700
Subject: Two variable dictionary comprehension
In-Reply-To: <58e2f123$0$1584$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
Message-ID: <012001d2ad0d$b1628690$27b23dae@sambora>

Thanks Steve for writing this, and I'll read it more carefully when my
illness gives my mind back to me.

I was actually a math major before I discovered computer science, and I
had to progress beyond machine language and assembler before I found the
subtle differences and more flexible boundaries of higher level
programming languages you talk about. I'm sure much of it's the same
with Python. They key I think will be in finding more of the logic in
Python, and then fleshing it out with more detail and choices. The core
logic wasn't taught to me in the courses I took, so I need to backfill
it now.

I look forward to studying what you've written here as soon as I can.

Deborah


Steve D'Aprano wrote, on Monday, April 03, 2017 6:05 PM
> 
> On Tue, 4 Apr 2017 03:27 am, Deborah Swanson wrote:
> 
> > I'll admit that both dictionaries and comprehensions are still a 
> > little bit fuzzy to me, especially when I get away from the common 
> > usages. This could be a good exercise to clarify some of the fuzzy 
> > areas.
> 
> 
> As far as comprehensions go, how is your mathematics?
> 
> If you remember your set builder notation from maths, list 
> comprehensions are based on that.
> 
> In maths, we say something like:
> 
> {2n + 1 : 0 ? n ? 9}
> 
> which might be read aloud as "the set of 2 times n, plus 1, 
> such that n is between 0 and 9 inclusive".
> 
> http://www.mathwords.com/s/set_builder_notation.htm
> 
> A similar notation might be:
> 
> {2n + 1 : n ? {1, 2, 3}}
> 
> said as "the set of 2 times n, plus 1, such that n is an 
> element of the set {1, 2, 3}".
> 
> 
> If you're a maths geek like me, this is second nature :-)
> 
> 
> Now, Python's list comprehension syntax is based on a similar 
> notation, except we spell it out in words rather than 
> symbols, using the familiar "for n in ..." syntax from 
> for-loops instead of : "such that".
> 
> {2*n + 1 for n in range(10)}
> 
> {2*n + 1 for n in (1, 2, 3)}
> 
> 
> A few other differences:
> 
> - list comprehensions use [ ] for the outermost brackets;
> - set and dict comprehensions use { };
> - generator expressions use ( ) (unless the parentheses can 
> be implied).
> 
> We're not restricted to mathematical expressions, and can use 
> any Python expression we like:
> 
> [value.method(arg)[1] for (value, arg) in zip(values, arguments)]
> 
> 
> translates roughly into this for-loop:
> 
> result = []
> for (value, arg) in zip(values, arguments):
>     result.append(value.method(arg)[1])
> 
> 
> 
> Another difference is that comprehensions allow an "if" clause:
> 
> [v.method(a)[1] for (v, a) in zip(values, arguments) if v is not None]
> 
> translates something like:
> 
> 
> result = []
> for (v, a) in zip(values, arguments):
>     if v is not None:
>         result.append(v.method(a)[1])
> 
> 
> There's more, but that covers probably 98% of comprehension usage.
> 
> And of course, remember that dict comprehensions use the same 
> key:value syntax as ordinary dict "literals" (the official 
> name is "dict display").
> 
> result = {}
> for key, value in zip(keys, values):
>     result[key] = value
> 
> 
> becomes
> 
> result = {key:value for (key, value) in zip(keys, values)}
> 
> although frankly that's better written as:
> 
> dict(zip(keys, values))
> 
> 
> 
> Hope this helps!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Steve
> ?Cheer up,? they said, ?things could be worse.? So I cheered 
> up, and sure enough, things got worse.
> 
> -- 
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
> 



From __peter__ at web.de  Tue Apr  4 02:41:09 2017
From: __peter__ at web.de (Peter Otten)
Date: Tue, 04 Apr 2017 08:41:09 +0200
Subject: Basic Nested Dictionary in a Loop
References: <CACT3xuUFLfm9vpOhLu7pdB0B=pWQvL7K_pfk435PTMfEZbjcjA@mail.gmail.com>
 <obraqo$4lt$1@blaine.gmane.org>
 <CACT3xuXeBAt9s9Wj8D=jBd7gUr8JWqP3U5ngoc-uqJ2ntRp5mQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <obvf63$g40$1@blaine.gmane.org>

Ganesh Pal wrote:

>>
>>
>> Whenever you feel the urge to write range(len(whatever)) -- resist that
>> temptation, and you'll end up with better Python code ;)
>>
>>
> Thanks for this suggestion but for my better understanding can  explain
> this further even Steve did point the same mistake.

It's not directly a mistake, it's just that programming against a smaller 
interface makes your code more flexible and more readable.

Readability:

items = [...]
for i in range(len(items)):
    ...

Are list entries replaced? We cannot know without inspecting the for suite.

items = [...]
for item in items:
    ...

Are list entries replaced? No.

Flexibility:

def give_raise(employees, amount):
    for i in range(len(items)):
        employee = employees[i]
        employee.payment += amount

employees = [...]
give_raise(employees, 10)

Now let's adapt the code to raise the payment of some employees:

male_employees = [
     employees[i] for i in range(len(employees)) 
     if e.sex == "male"
]
give_raise(male_emplyees, 10)

We need a helper list, basically because there is a len() call inside the 
give_raise() function. If we rewrite the function in an idiomatic way

def give_raise(employees, amount):
    for employee in employees:
        employee.payment += amount

it will become not just more concise, the calling code no longer needs to 
build the intermediate list. Instead we save the extra memory and pass a 
generator expression:

give_raise((e for e in employees if e.sex == "female"), 10)

In a similar way you can write code that iterates over data that is lazily 
read into memory, like lines in a file

# wrong, reads the whole file into memory
lines = open(...).readlines()
for i in range(len(lines)):
    process(lines[i])

# idiomatic, read the lines as needed
for line in open(...):
    process(line)

or records from a database.





From mal at europython.eu  Tue Apr  4 04:45:18 2017
From: mal at europython.eu (M.-A. Lemburg)
Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2017 10:45:18 +0200
Subject: EuroPython 2017: Early-bird Tickets now on sale!
Message-ID: <6b81b1b4-ad03-1047-3a82-d843ad7a1a9d@europython.eu>

Interested in attending EuroPython? Entry tickets are now on sale and
available on our website.

		  *** Buy your EuroPython ticket ***

      https://ep2017.europython.eu/en/registration/buy-tickets/


Tickets for EuroPython will be sold in three phases:

First, we?ll have a short early-bird ticket phase, where we?ll sell
tickets at a very low rate. Only 200 tickets will be available for
this rate, so be quick. It usually takes just a few days for them to
sell out.

We?ll then switch to the regular rates, and closer to the conference,
to the on-desk rates.

You can get tickets for the whole week, if you don?t want to miss
anything, or buy day passes at the on-desk rates in July to attend
only one or two days.

We further offer three different rates: ?students? (including PhD and
postdoc researchers), ?personal? and ?business? passes (for
companies). Speakers and trainers will benefit of special discounts.
See Call for Proposals for further details:

    https://ep2017.europython.eu/en/call-for-proposals/

Take this opportunity and get your ticket now! Prices will increase
the closer we get to the event.


Enjoy,
--
EuroPython 2017 Team
http://ep2017.europython.eu/
http://www.europython-society.org/

PS: Please forward or retweet to help us reach all interested parties:
https://twitter.com/europython/status/849177756873224193
Thanks.


From prathamesh.nimkar at gmail.com  Tue Apr  4 09:20:55 2017
From: prathamesh.nimkar at gmail.com (Prathamesh)
Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2017 06:20:55 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Improve Python + Influxdb import performance
In-Reply-To: <mailman.83.1491236547.2961.python-list@python.org>
References: <104d49b4-da8c-4b23-a520-3042c9d91a3d@googlegroups.com>
 <CAEfz+TwY2MifjckPuRyEEw8FEBnGX3V0G36h43RV775PvKUVoA@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.83.1491236547.2961.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <634caa93-f512-43db-9084-c4fb361e9366@googlegroups.com>

Hi Inada

Thank you for your response
Weblogic works on Jython 2.2.1
and I think the Python requests module requires >= python 2.6

Please correct me if I'm wrong
or if there is another way to get this to work

Thanks
P

On Monday, April 3, 2017 at 9:52:38 PM UTC+5:30, INADA Naoki wrote:
> You can reuse connection, instead of creating for each request. (HTTP
> keep-alive).
> 
> On Tue, Apr 4, 2017 at 1:11 AM, Prathamesh <prathamesh.nimkar at gmail.com> wrote:
> > Hello World
> >
> > The following script is an extract from
> >
> > https://github.com/RittmanMead/obi-metrics-agent/blob/master/obi-metrics-agent.py
> >
> > <<Code begins>>
> >
> > import calendar, time
> > import sys
> > import getopt
> >
> > print '---------------------------------------'
> >
> > # Check the arguments to this script are as expected.
> > # argv[0] is script name.
> > argLen = len(sys.argv)
> > if argLen -1 < 2:
> >     print "ERROR: got ", argLen -1, " args, must be at least two."
> >     print '$FMW_HOME/oracle_common/common/bin/wlst.sh obi-metrics-agent.py  <AdminUserName> <AdminPassword> [<AdminServer_t3_url>] [<Carbon|InfluxDB>] [<target host>] [<target port>] [targetDB influx db>'
> >     exit()
> >
> > outputFormat='CSV'
> > url='t3://localhost:7001'
> > targetHost='localhost'
> > targetDB='obi'
> > targetPort='8086'
> >
> > try:
> >     wls_user = sys.argv[1]
> >     wls_pw = sys.argv[2]
> >     url  = sys.argv[3]
> >     outputFormat=sys.argv[4]
> >     targetHost=sys.argv[5]
> >     targetPort=sys.argv[6]
> >     targetDB=sys.argv[7]
> > except:
> >     print ''
> >
> > print wls_user, wls_pw,url, outputFormat,targetHost,targetPort,targetDB
> >
> > now_epoch = calendar.timegm(time.gmtime())*1000
> >
> > if outputFormat=='InfluxDB':
> >     import httplib
> >     influx_msgs=''
> >
> > connect(wls_user,wls_pw,url)
> > results = displayMetricTables('Oracle_BI*','dms_cProcessInfo')
> > for table in results:
> >     tableName = table.get('Table')
> >     rows = table.get('Rows')
> >     rowCollection = rows.values()
> >     iter = rowCollection.iterator()
> >     while iter.hasNext():
> >         row = iter.next()
> >         rowType = row.getCompositeType()
> >         keys = rowType.keySet()
> >         keyIter = keys.iterator()
> >         inst_name= row.get('Name').replace(' ','-')
> >         try:
> >             server= row.get('Servername').replace(' ','-').replace('/','_')
> >         except:
> >             try:
> >                 server= row.get('ServerName').replace(' ','-').replace('/','_')
> >             except:
> >                 server='unknown'
> >         try:
> >             host= row.get('Host').replace(' ','-')
> >         except:
> >             host=''
> >         while keyIter.hasNext():
> >             columnName = keyIter.next()
> >             value = row.get(columnName )
> >             if columnName.find('.value')>0:
> >                 metric_name=columnName.replace('.value','')
> >                 if value is not None:
> >                     if value != 0:
> >                         if outputFormat=='InfluxDB':
> >                             influx_msg= ('%s,server=%s,host=%s,metric_group=%s,metric_instance=%s value=%s %s') % (metric_name,server,host,tableName,inst_name,  value,now_epoch*1000000)
> >                             influx_msgs+='\n%s' % influx_msg
> >                             conn = httplib.HTTPConnection('%s:%s' % (targetHost,targetPort))
> >                             ## TODO pretty sure should be urlencoding this ...
> >                             a=conn.request("POST", ("/write?db=%s" % targetDB), influx_msg)
> >                             r=conn.getresponse()
> >
> > <<Code ends>>
> >
> > It currently takes about 3 minutes to execute completely and I was thinking of a way to make it run faster
> >
> > Data alignment (Influx line protocol) & data loading - done together takes up most of the time
> >
> > Influxdb is currently loading data at around 3 points/second
> >
> > Any way to align the data separately, store it and load it as a batch?
> >
> > I feel that would help improve performance
> >
> > Please let me know if you have any pointers
> > I can send the data sheet if required
> >
> > Thanks P
> > --
> > https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list



On Monday, April 3, 2017 at 9:52:38 PM UTC+5:30, INADA Naoki wrote:
> You can reuse connection, instead of creating for each request. (HTTP
> keep-alive).
> 
> On Tue, Apr 4, 2017 at 1:11 AM, Prathamesh <prathamesh.nimkar at gmail.com> wrote:
> > Hello World
> >
> > The following script is an extract from
> >
> > https://github.com/RittmanMead/obi-metrics-agent/blob/master/obi-metrics-agent.py
> >
> > <<Code begins>>
> >
> > import calendar, time
> > import sys
> > import getopt
> >
> > print '---------------------------------------'
> >
> > # Check the arguments to this script are as expected.
> > # argv[0] is script name.
> > argLen = len(sys.argv)
> > if argLen -1 < 2:
> >     print "ERROR: got ", argLen -1, " args, must be at least two."
> >     print '$FMW_HOME/oracle_common/common/bin/wlst.sh obi-metrics-agent.py  <AdminUserName> <AdminPassword> [<AdminServer_t3_url>] [<Carbon|InfluxDB>] [<target host>] [<target port>] [targetDB influx db>'
> >     exit()
> >
> > outputFormat='CSV'
> > url='t3://localhost:7001'
> > targetHost='localhost'
> > targetDB='obi'
> > targetPort='8086'
> >
> > try:
> >     wls_user = sys.argv[1]
> >     wls_pw = sys.argv[2]
> >     url  = sys.argv[3]
> >     outputFormat=sys.argv[4]
> >     targetHost=sys.argv[5]
> >     targetPort=sys.argv[6]
> >     targetDB=sys.argv[7]
> > except:
> >     print ''
> >
> > print wls_user, wls_pw,url, outputFormat,targetHost,targetPort,targetDB
> >
> > now_epoch = calendar.timegm(time.gmtime())*1000
> >
> > if outputFormat=='InfluxDB':
> >     import httplib
> >     influx_msgs=''
> >
> > connect(wls_user,wls_pw,url)
> > results = displayMetricTables('Oracle_BI*','dms_cProcessInfo')
> > for table in results:
> >     tableName = table.get('Table')
> >     rows = table.get('Rows')
> >     rowCollection = rows.values()
> >     iter = rowCollection.iterator()
> >     while iter.hasNext():
> >         row = iter.next()
> >         rowType = row.getCompositeType()
> >         keys = rowType.keySet()
> >         keyIter = keys.iterator()
> >         inst_name= row.get('Name').replace(' ','-')
> >         try:
> >             server= row.get('Servername').replace(' ','-').replace('/','_')
> >         except:
> >             try:
> >                 server= row.get('ServerName').replace(' ','-').replace('/','_')
> >             except:
> >                 server='unknown'
> >         try:
> >             host= row.get('Host').replace(' ','-')
> >         except:
> >             host=''
> >         while keyIter.hasNext():
> >             columnName = keyIter.next()
> >             value = row.get(columnName )
> >             if columnName.find('.value')>0:
> >                 metric_name=columnName.replace('.value','')
> >                 if value is not None:
> >                     if value != 0:
> >                         if outputFormat=='InfluxDB':
> >                             influx_msg= ('%s,server=%s,host=%s,metric_group=%s,metric_instance=%s value=%s %s') % (metric_name,server,host,tableName,inst_name,  value,now_epoch*1000000)
> >                             influx_msgs+='\n%s' % influx_msg
> >                             conn = httplib.HTTPConnection('%s:%s' % (targetHost,targetPort))
> >                             ## TODO pretty sure should be urlencoding this ...
> >                             a=conn.request("POST", ("/write?db=%s" % targetDB), influx_msg)
> >                             r=conn.getresponse()
> >
> > <<Code ends>>
> >
> > It currently takes about 3 minutes to execute completely and I was thinking of a way to make it run faster
> >
> > Data alignment (Influx line protocol) & data loading - done together takes up most of the time
> >
> > Influxdb is currently loading data at around 3 points/second
> >
> > Any way to align the data separately, store it and load it as a batch?
> >
> > I feel that would help improve performance
> >
> > Please let me know if you have any pointers
> > I can send the data sheet if required
> >
> > Thanks P
> > --
> > https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list



On Monday, April 3, 2017 at 9:52:38 PM UTC+5:30, INADA Naoki wrote:
> You can reuse connection, instead of creating for each request. (HTTP
> keep-alive).
> 
> On Tue, Apr 4, 2017 at 1:11 AM, Prathamesh <prathamesh.nimkar at gmail.com> wrote:
> > Hello World
> >
> > The following script is an extract from
> >
> > https://github.com/RittmanMead/obi-metrics-agent/blob/master/obi-metrics-agent.py
> >
> > <<Code begins>>
> >
> > import calendar, time
> > import sys
> > import getopt
> >
> > print '---------------------------------------'
> >
> > # Check the arguments to this script are as expected.
> > # argv[0] is script name.
> > argLen = len(sys.argv)
> > if argLen -1 < 2:
> >     print "ERROR: got ", argLen -1, " args, must be at least two."
> >     print '$FMW_HOME/oracle_common/common/bin/wlst.sh obi-metrics-agent.py  <AdminUserName> <AdminPassword> [<AdminServer_t3_url>] [<Carbon|InfluxDB>] [<target host>] [<target port>] [targetDB influx db>'
> >     exit()
> >
> > outputFormat='CSV'
> > url='t3://localhost:7001'
> > targetHost='localhost'
> > targetDB='obi'
> > targetPort='8086'
> >
> > try:
> >     wls_user = sys.argv[1]
> >     wls_pw = sys.argv[2]
> >     url  = sys.argv[3]
> >     outputFormat=sys.argv[4]
> >     targetHost=sys.argv[5]
> >     targetPort=sys.argv[6]
> >     targetDB=sys.argv[7]
> > except:
> >     print ''
> >
> > print wls_user, wls_pw,url, outputFormat,targetHost,targetPort,targetDB
> >
> > now_epoch = calendar.timegm(time.gmtime())*1000
> >
> > if outputFormat=='InfluxDB':
> >     import httplib
> >     influx_msgs=''
> >
> > connect(wls_user,wls_pw,url)
> > results = displayMetricTables('Oracle_BI*','dms_cProcessInfo')
> > for table in results:
> >     tableName = table.get('Table')
> >     rows = table.get('Rows')
> >     rowCollection = rows.values()
> >     iter = rowCollection.iterator()
> >     while iter.hasNext():
> >         row = iter.next()
> >         rowType = row.getCompositeType()
> >         keys = rowType.keySet()
> >         keyIter = keys.iterator()
> >         inst_name= row.get('Name').replace(' ','-')
> >         try:
> >             server= row.get('Servername').replace(' ','-').replace('/','_')
> >         except:
> >             try:
> >                 server= row.get('ServerName').replace(' ','-').replace('/','_')
> >             except:
> >                 server='unknown'
> >         try:
> >             host= row.get('Host').replace(' ','-')
> >         except:
> >             host=''
> >         while keyIter.hasNext():
> >             columnName = keyIter.next()
> >             value = row.get(columnName )
> >             if columnName.find('.value')>0:
> >                 metric_name=columnName.replace('.value','')
> >                 if value is not None:
> >                     if value != 0:
> >                         if outputFormat=='InfluxDB':
> >                             influx_msg= ('%s,server=%s,host=%s,metric_group=%s,metric_instance=%s value=%s %s') % (metric_name,server,host,tableName,inst_name,  value,now_epoch*1000000)
> >                             influx_msgs+='\n%s' % influx_msg
> >                             conn = httplib.HTTPConnection('%s:%s' % (targetHost,targetPort))
> >                             ## TODO pretty sure should be urlencoding this ...
> >                             a=conn.request("POST", ("/write?db=%s" % targetDB), influx_msg)
> >                             r=conn.getresponse()
> >
> > <<Code ends>>
> >
> > It currently takes about 3 minutes to execute completely and I was thinking of a way to make it run faster
> >
> > Data alignment (Influx line protocol) & data loading - done together takes up most of the time
> >
> > Influxdb is currently loading data at around 3 points/second
> >
> > Any way to align the data separately, store it and load it as a batch?
> >
> > I feel that would help improve performance
> >
> > Please let me know if you have any pointers
> > I can send the data sheet if required
> >
> > Thanks P
> > --
> > https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list



On Monday, April 3, 2017 at 9:52:38 PM UTC+5:30, INADA Naoki wrote:
> You can reuse connection, instead of creating for each request. (HTTP
> keep-alive).
> 
> On Tue, Apr 4, 2017 at 1:11 AM, Prathamesh <prathamesh.nimkar at gmail.com> wrote:
> > Hello World
> >
> > The following script is an extract from
> >
> > https://github.com/RittmanMead/obi-metrics-agent/blob/master/obi-metrics-agent.py
> >
> > <<Code begins>>
> >
> > import calendar, time
> > import sys
> > import getopt
> >
> > print '---------------------------------------'
> >
> > # Check the arguments to this script are as expected.
> > # argv[0] is script name.
> > argLen = len(sys.argv)
> > if argLen -1 < 2:
> >     print "ERROR: got ", argLen -1, " args, must be at least two."
> >     print '$FMW_HOME/oracle_common/common/bin/wlst.sh obi-metrics-agent.py  <AdminUserName> <AdminPassword> [<AdminServer_t3_url>] [<Carbon|InfluxDB>] [<target host>] [<target port>] [targetDB influx db>'
> >     exit()
> >
> > outputFormat='CSV'
> > url='t3://localhost:7001'
> > targetHost='localhost'
> > targetDB='obi'
> > targetPort='8086'
> >
> > try:
> >     wls_user = sys.argv[1]
> >     wls_pw = sys.argv[2]
> >     url  = sys.argv[3]
> >     outputFormat=sys.argv[4]
> >     targetHost=sys.argv[5]
> >     targetPort=sys.argv[6]
> >     targetDB=sys.argv[7]
> > except:
> >     print ''
> >
> > print wls_user, wls_pw,url, outputFormat,targetHost,targetPort,targetDB
> >
> > now_epoch = calendar.timegm(time.gmtime())*1000
> >
> > if outputFormat=='InfluxDB':
> >     import httplib
> >     influx_msgs=''
> >
> > connect(wls_user,wls_pw,url)
> > results = displayMetricTables('Oracle_BI*','dms_cProcessInfo')
> > for table in results:
> >     tableName = table.get('Table')
> >     rows = table.get('Rows')
> >     rowCollection = rows.values()
> >     iter = rowCollection.iterator()
> >     while iter.hasNext():
> >         row = iter.next()
> >         rowType = row.getCompositeType()
> >         keys = rowType.keySet()
> >         keyIter = keys.iterator()
> >         inst_name= row.get('Name').replace(' ','-')
> >         try:
> >             server= row.get('Servername').replace(' ','-').replace('/','_')
> >         except:
> >             try:
> >                 server= row.get('ServerName').replace(' ','-').replace('/','_')
> >             except:
> >                 server='unknown'
> >         try:
> >             host= row.get('Host').replace(' ','-')
> >         except:
> >             host=''
> >         while keyIter.hasNext():
> >             columnName = keyIter.next()
> >             value = row.get(columnName )
> >             if columnName.find('.value')>0:
> >                 metric_name=columnName.replace('.value','')
> >                 if value is not None:
> >                     if value != 0:
> >                         if outputFormat=='InfluxDB':
> >                             influx_msg= ('%s,server=%s,host=%s,metric_group=%s,metric_instance=%s value=%s %s') % (metric_name,server,host,tableName,inst_name,  value,now_epoch*1000000)
> >                             influx_msgs+='\n%s' % influx_msg
> >                             conn = httplib.HTTPConnection('%s:%s' % (targetHost,targetPort))
> >                             ## TODO pretty sure should be urlencoding this ...
> >                             a=conn.request("POST", ("/write?db=%s" % targetDB), influx_msg)
> >                             r=conn.getresponse()
> >
> > <<Code ends>>
> >
> > It currently takes about 3 minutes to execute completely and I was thinking of a way to make it run faster
> >
> > Data alignment (Influx line protocol) & data loading - done together takes up most of the time
> >
> > Influxdb is currently loading data at around 3 points/second
> >
> > Any way to align the data separately, store it and load it as a batch?
> >
> > I feel that would help improve performance
> >
> > Please let me know if you have any pointers
> > I can send the data sheet if required
> >
> > Thanks P
> > --
> > https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list



On Monday, April 3, 2017 at 9:52:38 PM UTC+5:30, INADA Naoki wrote:
> You can reuse connection, instead of creating for each request. (HTTP
> keep-alive).
> 
> On Tue, Apr 4, 2017 at 1:11 AM, Prathamesh <prathamesh.nimkar at gmail.com> wrote:
> > Hello World
> >
> > The following script is an extract from
> >
> > https://github.com/RittmanMead/obi-metrics-agent/blob/master/obi-metrics-agent.py
> >
> > <<Code begins>>
> >
> > import calendar, time
> > import sys
> > import getopt
> >
> > print '---------------------------------------'
> >
> > # Check the arguments to this script are as expected.
> > # argv[0] is script name.
> > argLen = len(sys.argv)
> > if argLen -1 < 2:
> >     print "ERROR: got ", argLen -1, " args, must be at least two."
> >     print '$FMW_HOME/oracle_common/common/bin/wlst.sh obi-metrics-agent.py  <AdminUserName> <AdminPassword> [<AdminServer_t3_url>] [<Carbon|InfluxDB>] [<target host>] [<target port>] [targetDB influx db>'
> >     exit()
> >
> > outputFormat='CSV'
> > url='t3://localhost:7001'
> > targetHost='localhost'
> > targetDB='obi'
> > targetPort='8086'
> >
> > try:
> >     wls_user = sys.argv[1]
> >     wls_pw = sys.argv[2]
> >     url  = sys.argv[3]
> >     outputFormat=sys.argv[4]
> >     targetHost=sys.argv[5]
> >     targetPort=sys.argv[6]
> >     targetDB=sys.argv[7]
> > except:
> >     print ''
> >
> > print wls_user, wls_pw,url, outputFormat,targetHost,targetPort,targetDB
> >
> > now_epoch = calendar.timegm(time.gmtime())*1000
> >
> > if outputFormat=='InfluxDB':
> >     import httplib
> >     influx_msgs=''
> >
> > connect(wls_user,wls_pw,url)
> > results = displayMetricTables('Oracle_BI*','dms_cProcessInfo')
> > for table in results:
> >     tableName = table.get('Table')
> >     rows = table.get('Rows')
> >     rowCollection = rows.values()
> >     iter = rowCollection.iterator()
> >     while iter.hasNext():
> >         row = iter.next()
> >         rowType = row.getCompositeType()
> >         keys = rowType.keySet()
> >         keyIter = keys.iterator()
> >         inst_name= row.get('Name').replace(' ','-')
> >         try:
> >             server= row.get('Servername').replace(' ','-').replace('/','_')
> >         except:
> >             try:
> >                 server= row.get('ServerName').replace(' ','-').replace('/','_')
> >             except:
> >                 server='unknown'
> >         try:
> >             host= row.get('Host').replace(' ','-')
> >         except:
> >             host=''
> >         while keyIter.hasNext():
> >             columnName = keyIter.next()
> >             value = row.get(columnName )
> >             if columnName.find('.value')>0:
> >                 metric_name=columnName.replace('.value','')
> >                 if value is not None:
> >                     if value != 0:
> >                         if outputFormat=='InfluxDB':
> >                             influx_msg= ('%s,server=%s,host=%s,metric_group=%s,metric_instance=%s value=%s %s') % (metric_name,server,host,tableName,inst_name,  value,now_epoch*1000000)
> >                             influx_msgs+='\n%s' % influx_msg
> >                             conn = httplib.HTTPConnection('%s:%s' % (targetHost,targetPort))
> >                             ## TODO pretty sure should be urlencoding this ...
> >                             a=conn.request("POST", ("/write?db=%s" % targetDB), influx_msg)
> >                             r=conn.getresponse()
> >
> > <<Code ends>>
> >
> > It currently takes about 3 minutes to execute completely and I was thinking of a way to make it run faster
> >
> > Data alignment (Influx line protocol) & data loading - done together takes up most of the time
> >
> > Influxdb is currently loading data at around 3 points/second
> >
> > Any way to align the data separately, store it and load it as a batch?
> >
> > I feel that would help improve performance
> >
> > Please let me know if you have any pointers
> > I can send the data sheet if required
> >
> > Thanks P
> > --
> > https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list



On Monday, April 3, 2017 at 9:52:38 PM UTC+5:30, INADA Naoki wrote:
> You can reuse connection, instead of creating for each request. (HTTP
> keep-alive).
> 
> On Tue, Apr 4, 2017 at 1:11 AM, Prathamesh <prathamesh.nimkar at gmail.com> wrote:
> > Hello World
> >
> > The following script is an extract from
> >
> > https://github.com/RittmanMead/obi-metrics-agent/blob/master/obi-metrics-agent.py
> >
> > <<Code begins>>
> >
> > import calendar, time
> > import sys
> > import getopt
> >
> > print '---------------------------------------'
> >
> > # Check the arguments to this script are as expected.
> > # argv[0] is script name.
> > argLen = len(sys.argv)
> > if argLen -1 < 2:
> >     print "ERROR: got ", argLen -1, " args, must be at least two."
> >     print '$FMW_HOME/oracle_common/common/bin/wlst.sh obi-metrics-agent.py  <AdminUserName> <AdminPassword> [<AdminServer_t3_url>] [<Carbon|InfluxDB>] [<target host>] [<target port>] [targetDB influx db>'
> >     exit()
> >
> > outputFormat='CSV'
> > url='t3://localhost:7001'
> > targetHost='localhost'
> > targetDB='obi'
> > targetPort='8086'
> >
> > try:
> >     wls_user = sys.argv[1]
> >     wls_pw = sys.argv[2]
> >     url  = sys.argv[3]
> >     outputFormat=sys.argv[4]
> >     targetHost=sys.argv[5]
> >     targetPort=sys.argv[6]
> >     targetDB=sys.argv[7]
> > except:
> >     print ''
> >
> > print wls_user, wls_pw,url, outputFormat,targetHost,targetPort,targetDB
> >
> > now_epoch = calendar.timegm(time.gmtime())*1000
> >
> > if outputFormat=='InfluxDB':
> >     import httplib
> >     influx_msgs=''
> >
> > connect(wls_user,wls_pw,url)
> > results = displayMetricTables('Oracle_BI*','dms_cProcessInfo')
> > for table in results:
> >     tableName = table.get('Table')
> >     rows = table.get('Rows')
> >     rowCollection = rows.values()
> >     iter = rowCollection.iterator()
> >     while iter.hasNext():
> >         row = iter.next()
> >         rowType = row.getCompositeType()
> >         keys = rowType.keySet()
> >         keyIter = keys.iterator()
> >         inst_name= row.get('Name').replace(' ','-')
> >         try:
> >             server= row.get('Servername').replace(' ','-').replace('/','_')
> >         except:
> >             try:
> >                 server= row.get('ServerName').replace(' ','-').replace('/','_')
> >             except:
> >                 server='unknown'
> >         try:
> >             host= row.get('Host').replace(' ','-')
> >         except:
> >             host=''
> >         while keyIter.hasNext():
> >             columnName = keyIter.next()
> >             value = row.get(columnName )
> >             if columnName.find('.value')>0:
> >                 metric_name=columnName.replace('.value','')
> >                 if value is not None:
> >                     if value != 0:
> >                         if outputFormat=='InfluxDB':
> >                             influx_msg= ('%s,server=%s,host=%s,metric_group=%s,metric_instance=%s value=%s %s') % (metric_name,server,host,tableName,inst_name,  value,now_epoch*1000000)
> >                             influx_msgs+='\n%s' % influx_msg
> >                             conn = httplib.HTTPConnection('%s:%s' % (targetHost,targetPort))
> >                             ## TODO pretty sure should be urlencoding this ...
> >                             a=conn.request("POST", ("/write?db=%s" % targetDB), influx_msg)
> >                             r=conn.getresponse()
> >
> > <<Code ends>>
> >
> > It currently takes about 3 minutes to execute completely and I was thinking of a way to make it run faster
> >
> > Data alignment (Influx line protocol) & data loading - done together takes up most of the time
> >
> > Influxdb is currently loading data at around 3 points/second
> >
> > Any way to align the data separately, store it and load it as a batch?
> >
> > I feel that would help improve performance
> >
> > Please let me know if you have any pointers
> > I can send the data sheet if required
> >
> > Thanks P
> > --
> > https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list



From cwrseckford at gmail.com  Tue Apr  4 10:06:58 2017
From: cwrseckford at gmail.com (cwrseckford at gmail.com)
Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2017 07:06:58 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Text-mode apps (Was :Who are the "spacists"?)
In-Reply-To: <58dfcea3$0$1596$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
References: <CAE6NSRD=LLyj2qdBR_YX_MkubocQCURVivkHg=+62qgZZ3qCQw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPTjJmo6mxAxKQgqNRLFoX6EAnRrwoK6B8f7ids_RbWQ8VoiYg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAE6NSRDsN8vTPkt4E4LU6JGMEqUME3DQ73GPZ-f_7uVCR-aGrw@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.38.1490547441.2634.python-list@python.org>
 <58d80413$0$1595$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <CAE6NSRDpdadqORG1w0529bvvw_Gkoau8xTga3LYS=LfGCmXuqg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPTjJmojKPE3d4y5YEJJuGer174Yv0ZcobJGOp8rmYgYYYefbg@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.57.1490558002.2634.python-list@python.org>
 <626fc6cf-0cf9-4efa-a3ff-f9ca2ddcb7fd@googlegroups.com>
 <CAPTjJmqDU1Wr4y0G=BmYCjEdKLC0_Ch-fNoM2cOykX1vB5B-5Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.136.1490852628.2634.python-list@python.org>
 <ee1ada22-ce6c-4e21-b5ae-cbbbaca0b8ba@googlegroups.com>
 <58dfcea3$0$1596$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
Message-ID: <3b69fb8f-0c1a-467c-ac08-79afa0e0bbbe@googlegroups.com>

On Saturday, 1 April 2017 17:01:03 UTC+1, Steve D'Aprano  wrote:
> On Sat, 1 Apr 2017 12:17 pm, Rick Johnson wrote:
> 
> > Most people just quietly change the filename and move on
> 
> 
> There are over a billion people in China, almost a billion more in India,
> about 140 million people in Russia, nearly 130 million people in Japan, 250
> million in Indonesia, about 290 million native Arabic speakers, and even 9
> million speakers of Hebrew.
> 
> If you think that all these people, and hundreds of millions more, will
> just "quietly change the filename" to ASCII because you're too lazy,
> self-centred and arrogant to move on from 1963, then you truly are an
> example of the Ugly American.
> 

Try to get your cliches straight.  The "Ugly American" was the good guy, in contrast to the good-looking, smooth-talking State Department types who were the baddies.

But hey, experience tells us that anyone ugly must automatically be wicked, not so?

Will


From torriem at gmail.com  Tue Apr  4 10:17:57 2017
From: torriem at gmail.com (Michael Torrie)
Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2017 08:17:57 -0600
Subject: Appending data to a json file
In-Reply-To: <87a87wlowd.fsf@handshake.de>
References: <obv26q$140o$1@gioia.aioe.org> <87a87wlowd.fsf@handshake.de>
Message-ID: <51ace66d-2451-da08-1c4a-4c3819400d8c@gmail.com>

On 04/03/2017 11:31 PM, dieter wrote:
> Dave <dboland9 at fastmail.fm> writes:
> 
>> I created a python program that gets data from a user, stores the data
>> as a dictionary in a list of dictionaries.  When the program quits, it
>> saves the data file.  My desire is to append the new data to the
>> existing data file as is done with purely text files.
> 
> Usually, you cannot do that:
> "JSON" stands for "JavaScript Object Notation": 

That's assuming he's using JSON; he never specified what he's using to
represent data as plain text.  Though I suspect you're correct, for all
we know he could just be writing data using his own text representation
or writing to an ini file.  And in his case it sounds like JSON is not
an ideal method for saving his data since he's wanting to only append
data, not read it in his program.

In the future, Dave, please provide all the information pertaining to
the problem so we can give accurate advice. Don't make us guess or
assume we can all infer this information.



From jussi.piitulainen at helsinki.fi  Tue Apr  4 10:19:38 2017
From: jussi.piitulainen at helsinki.fi (Jussi Piitulainen)
Date: Tue, 04 Apr 2017 17:19:38 +0300
Subject: Appending data to a json file
References: <obv26q$140o$1@gioia.aioe.org> <87a87wlowd.fsf@handshake.de>
 <51ace66d-2451-da08-1c4a-4c3819400d8c@gmail.com>
 <mailman.120.1491315483.2961.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <lf5r318z24l.fsf@ling.helsinki.fi>

Michael Torrie writes:

> On 04/03/2017 11:31 PM, dieter wrote:
>> Dave <dboland9 at fastmail.fm> writes:
>> 
>>> I created a python program that gets data from a user, stores the data
>>> as a dictionary in a list of dictionaries.  When the program quits, it
>>> saves the data file.  My desire is to append the new data to the
>>> existing data file as is done with purely text files.
>> 
>> Usually, you cannot do that:
>> "JSON" stands for "JavaScript Object Notation": 
>
> That's assuming he's using JSON; he never specified what he's using to
> represent data as plain text.  Though I suspect you're correct, for all
> we know he could just be writing data using his own text representation
> or writing to an ini file.  And in his case it sounds like JSON is not
> an ideal method for saving his data since he's wanting to only append
> data, not read it in his program.
>
> In the future, Dave, please provide all the information pertaining to
> the problem so we can give accurate advice. Don't make us guess or
> assume we can all infer this information.

The clue is on the subject line.


From torriem at gmail.com  Tue Apr  4 10:46:15 2017
From: torriem at gmail.com (Michael Torrie)
Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2017 08:46:15 -0600
Subject: Appending data to a json file
In-Reply-To: <lf5r318z24l.fsf@ling.helsinki.fi>
References: <obv26q$140o$1@gioia.aioe.org> <87a87wlowd.fsf@handshake.de>
 <51ace66d-2451-da08-1c4a-4c3819400d8c@gmail.com>
 <mailman.120.1491315483.2961.python-list@python.org>
 <lf5r318z24l.fsf@ling.helsinki.fi>
Message-ID: <7eeb2f6e-ea75-efcb-238b-fc2973d0bc9e@gmail.com>

On 04/04/2017 08:19 AM, Jussi Piitulainen wrote:
> The clue is on the subject line.

Ahh, so it is.



From venkatachalam.19 at gmail.com  Tue Apr  4 10:57:59 2017
From: venkatachalam.19 at gmail.com (venkatachalam.19 at gmail.com)
Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2017 07:57:59 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Data transmission from Python script to bash script
Message-ID: <92a819af-f997-4140-b1dc-74ee757036cf@googlegroups.com>

Hello All,

I am writing a python code for processing a data obtained from a sensor. The data from sensor is obtained by executing a python script. The data obtained should be further given to another python module where the received data is used for adjusting the location of an object.

For achieving this, there is a central bash script, which runs both the python modules parallel. Something like:

python a.py &
python b.py &

I am trying to return the sensor data to the bash .sh file, therefore it can be provided to the other script. This, based on the online tutorials:

sensor_data=$(python execute_sensor_process.py) &

and the sensor_data is assigned by printing the required data in the corresponding python script. For example, the data is printed in a.py as follows:

print >>sys.stderr,sens_data

By printing the data onto sys.stderr and assigning a return variable in the bash, I am expecting the data to be assigned.

But this is not happening. The sensor data is a dictionary and I like to have this data for further analysis.

Can someone help me to understand why the code is not working? I tried other approaches of function call such as


sensor_data=$`python execute_sensor_process.py` &


#python a.py tempfile.txt &
kinexon_data=`cat tempfile.txt` &

But none of the approaches are working.

Thank you,
Venkatachalam Srinivasan

 
 



From venkatachalam.19 at gmail.com  Tue Apr  4 11:01:42 2017
From: venkatachalam.19 at gmail.com (venkatachalam.19 at gmail.com)
Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2017 08:01:42 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Data exchange between python script and bash script
Message-ID: <50298d86-e688-4162-b96f-632e5a98c141@googlegroups.com>

Hello All,

I am writing a python code for processing a data obtained from a sensor. The data from sensor is obtained by executing a python script. The data obtained should be further given to another python module where the received data is used for adjusting the location of an object.

For achieving this, there is a central bash script, which runs both the python modules parallel. Something like:

python a.py &
python b.py &

I am trying to return the sensor data to the bash .sh file, therefore it can be provided to the other script. This, based on the online tutorials looks like:

sensor_data=$(python execute_sensor_process.py) &

and the sensor_data is assigned by printing the required data in the corresponding python script. For example, the data is printed in execute_sensor_process.py as follows:

print >>sys.stderr,sens_data

By printing the data onto sys.stderr and assigning a return variable in the bash, I am expecting the data to be assigned.

But this is not happening. The sensor data is a dictionary and I like to have this data for further analysis. I am not getting the data returned from the python script on to the bash variable.

Can someone help me to understand why the code is not working? I tried other approaches of function call such as


sensor_data=$`python execute_sensor_process.py` &


python execute_sensor_process.py tempfile.txt &
kinexon_data=`cat tempfile.txt` &

But none of the approaches are working.

Thank you,
Venkatachalam Srinivasan


From fpm at u.washington.edu  Tue Apr  4 11:24:31 2017
From: fpm at u.washington.edu (Frank Miles)
Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2017 15:24:31 -0000 (UTC)
Subject: Data exchange between python script and bash script
References: <50298d86-e688-4162-b96f-632e5a98c141@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <oc0drf$j7s$1@dont-email.me>

On Tue, 04 Apr 2017 08:01:42 -0700, venkatachalam.19 wrote:

> Hello All,
> 
> I am writing a python code for processing a data obtained from a sensor. The data from sensor is obtained by executing a python script. The data obtained should be further given to another python module where the received data is used for adjusting the location of an object.
> 
> For achieving this, there is a central bash script, which runs both the python modules parallel. Something like:
> 
> python a.py &
> python b.py &

What is going on that two python scripts are needed?  Which one generates the data needed by the bash script?

> I am trying to return the sensor data to the bash .sh file, therefore it can be provided to the other script. This, based on the online tutorials looks like:
> 
> sensor_data=$(python execute_sensor_process.py) &

Presumably <sensor_data> is simply getting the exit status code from the python interpreter, not the data, right?
What are you seeing?

> and the sensor_data is assigned by printing the required data in the corresponding python script. For example, the data is printed in execute_sensor_process.py as follows:
> 
> print >>sys.stderr,sens_data
> 
> By printing the data onto sys.stderr and assigning a return variable in the bash, I am expecting the data to be assigned.

Assigned to what?  Some return variable in bash?  What??
Why not use stdout?  Either pipe the data from python directly into a (possibly modified) bash script,
or into a file which gets read by the bash script.
 
> But this is not happening. The sensor data is a dictionary and I like to have this data for further analysis. I am not getting the data returned from the python script on to the bash variable.

Bash doesn't have dictionaries like python.  Why is bash needed?
 
> Can someone help me to understand why the code is not working? I tried other approaches of function call such as

You haven't given us enough of the code to really answer. 

> sensor_data=$`python execute_sensor_process.py` &
> 
> python execute_sensor_process.py tempfile.txt &
> kinexon_data=`cat tempfile.txt` &
> 
> But none of the approaches are working.
> 
> Thank you,
> Venkatachalam Srinivasan

I wonder if you could completely eliminate the bash script - do it all in python.
I've written quite a few bash scripts, but not so many since I started using
python.  Only exception is for low level functions on systems without a functioning
python.


From walters.justin01 at gmail.com  Tue Apr  4 11:42:09 2017
From: walters.justin01 at gmail.com (justin walters)
Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2017 08:42:09 -0700
Subject: Data exchange between python script and bash script
In-Reply-To: <50298d86-e688-4162-b96f-632e5a98c141@googlegroups.com>
References: <50298d86-e688-4162-b96f-632e5a98c141@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <CAO1D73EK-=5jyc-nD7GaVjM3i7ACh8bAT7cJ3GQrMkWmL8h8rg@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Apr 4, 2017 at 8:01 AM, <venkatachalam.19 at gmail.com> wrote:

> Hello All,
>
> I am writing a python code for processing a data obtained from a sensor.
> The data from sensor is obtained by executing a python script. The data
> obtained should be further given to another python module where the
> received data is used for adjusting the location of an object.
>
> For achieving this, there is a central bash script, which runs both the
> python modules parallel. Something like:
>
> python a.py &
> python b.py &
>
> I am trying to return the sensor data to the bash .sh file, therefore it
> can be provided to the other script. This, based on the online tutorials
> looks like:
>
> sensor_data=$(python execute_sensor_process.py) &
>
> and the sensor_data is assigned by printing the required data in the
> corresponding python script. For example, the data is printed in
> execute_sensor_process.py as follows:
>
> print >>sys.stderr,sens_data
>
> By printing the data onto sys.stderr and assigning a return variable in
> the bash, I am expecting the data to be assigned.
>
> But this is not happening. The sensor data is a dictionary and I like to
> have this data for further analysis. I am not getting the data returned
> from the python script on to the bash variable.
>
> Can someone help me to understand why the code is not working? I tried
> other approaches of function call such as
>
>
> sensor_data=$`python execute_sensor_process.py` &
>
>
> python execute_sensor_process.py tempfile.txt &
> kinexon_data=`cat tempfile.txt` &
>
> But none of the approaches are working.
>
> Thank you,
> Venkatachalam Srinivasan
> --
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
>

I'm not sure why you need the data in a bash script. What can you do with a
bash script that you
can't do with Python?

That said, it seems to me that you need a data persistence layer, i.e. a
way to store the dictionary
after it is created. My best advice would be to use the json module to
write out to json files. I
believe this is the best approach because json has a near 1-to-1 mapping
with Python
dictionaries.

Json is also a good choice because almost every language has a json parser
as part of it's standard
library, making you data extremely portable.


From ganesh1pal at gmail.com  Tue Apr  4 12:07:56 2017
From: ganesh1pal at gmail.com (Ganesh Pal)
Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2017 21:37:56 +0530
Subject: Basic Nested Dictionary in a Loop
In-Reply-To: <obvf63$g40$1@blaine.gmane.org>
References: <CACT3xuUFLfm9vpOhLu7pdB0B=pWQvL7K_pfk435PTMfEZbjcjA@mail.gmail.com>
 <obraqo$4lt$1@blaine.gmane.org>
 <CACT3xuXeBAt9s9Wj8D=jBd7gUr8JWqP3U5ngoc-uqJ2ntRp5mQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <obvf63$g40$1@blaine.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <CACT3xuXMUDQoRRwT9fEUk3pKBifp+H=jKn+5pDXMZttb6wSxNA@mail.gmail.com>

Thanks Peter , Terry and others !

On Tue, Apr 4, 2017 at 12:11 PM, Peter Otten <__peter__ at web.de> wrote:

> Ganesh Pal wrote:
>
> >>
> >>
> >> Whenever you feel the urge to write range(len(whatever)) -- resist that
> >> temptation, and you'll end up with better Python code ;)
> >>
> >>
> > Thanks for this suggestion but for my better understanding can  explain
> > this further even Steve did point the same mistake.
>
> It's not directly a mistake, it's just that programming against a smaller
> interface makes your code more flexible and more readable.
>
> Readability:
>
> items = [...]
> for i in range(len(items)):
>     ...
>
> Are list entries replaced? We cannot know without inspecting the for suite.
>
> items = [...]
> for item in items:
>     ...
>
> Are list entries replaced? No.
>
> Flexibility:
>
> def give_raise(employees, amount):
>     for i in range(len(items)):
>         employee = employees[i]
>         employee.payment += amount
>
> employees = [...]
> give_raise(employees, 10)
>
> Now let's adapt the code to raise the payment of some employees:
>
> male_employees = [
>      employees[i] for i in range(len(employees))
>      if e.sex == "male"
> ]
> give_raise(male_emplyees, 10)
>
> We need a helper list, basically because there is a len() call inside the
> give_raise() function. If we rewrite the function in an idiomatic way
>
> def give_raise(employees, amount):
>     for employee in employees:
>         employee.payment += amount
>
> it will become not just more concise, the calling code no longer needs to
> build the intermediate list. Instead we save the extra memory and pass a
> generator expression:
>
> give_raise((e for e in employees if e.sex == "female"), 10)
>
> In a similar way you can write code that iterates over data that is lazily
> read into memory, like lines in a file
>
> # wrong, reads the whole file into memory
> lines = open(...).readlines()
> for i in range(len(lines)):
>     process(lines[i])
>
> # idiomatic, read the lines as needed
> for line in open(...):
>     process(line)
>
> or records from a database.
>
>
>
> --
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
>


From robin.koch at t-online.de  Tue Apr  4 12:20:50 2017
From: robin.koch at t-online.de (Robin Koch)
Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2017 18:20:50 +0200
Subject: Appending data to a json file
In-Reply-To: <obv26q$140o$1@gioia.aioe.org>
References: <obv26q$140o$1@gioia.aioe.org>
Message-ID: <oc0h51$v4q$1@news.albasani.net>

Am 04.04.2017 um 04:59 schrieb Dave:
> I created a python program that gets data from a user, stores the data
> as a dictionary in a list of dictionaries.  When the program quits, it
> saves the data file.  My desire is to append the new data to the
> existing data file as is done with purely text files.  However, I can't
> find a way to do that.  The advice I have seen on the web is to load the
> data when the program starts, append the new user input to the list,
> then re-write the data file.  Is that the best way, or is there a better
> way?

As explained by others JSON does not allow text based data appending.

But maybe you take a look at YAML (if it's appropriate for your project).

-- 
Robin Koch


From ganesh1pal at gmail.com  Tue Apr  4 12:56:03 2017
From: ganesh1pal at gmail.com (Ganesh Pal)
Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2017 22:26:03 +0530
Subject: Optimize this code further
Message-ID: <CACT3xuWmjGGSuPaotUWmbat7nxcOkkzi+NcJDBJO=Xx0EQuP_Q@mail.gmail.com>

Dear friends.



I am trying  optimize the below  sample code any suggestion on this please
let me know



yy-1# cat file1.py

#! /usr/bin/python

from __future__ import absolute_import, division, print_function

import os

import sys

import logging



logging.basicConfig(stream=sys.stderr, level=logging.INFO)

logger = logging.getLogger(__name__)

LOG_DIR = '/var/log/frobnitz'



def createTestCases(LOG_DIR):

    '''create a test case data dictionary with parameters'''

    d = dict()

    d['test01'] = dict(object="inode", offset="18", size="4", optype="set")

    lin_02 = "something"

    d['test02'] = dict(object="lin", lin=lin_02, offset="18", size="5",

                       optype="set")

    return addLogFilename(d, LOG_DIR)



def run_tool(logfile, **kw):

    logger.info('%s would execute with %r', logfile, kw)



def addLogFilename(d, logdir):

    '''put the logfile name into the test case data dictionary'''

    for casename, args in d.items():

        args['logfile'] = os.path.join(logdir, casename + '.log')

    return d



def main():

    testcases = createTestCases(LOG_DIR)

    get_baddr = dict()

    for casename, kw in testcases.items():

        # -- yank the logfile name out of the dictionary, before calling
func

        logfile = kw.pop('logfile')

        get_baddr[casename] = run_tool(logfile, **kw)



if __name__ == '__main__':

    main()



# -- end of file

yy-1# python file1.py

INFO:__main__:/var/log/frobnitz/test02.log would execute with {'size': '5',
'lin': 'something', 'optype': 'set', 'object': 'lin', 'offset': '18'}

INFO:__main__:/var/log/frobnitz/test01.log would execute with {'object':
'inode', 'optype': 'set', 'offset': '18', 'size': '4'}



1.   I now need to have sub tests for every test i.e  , so in the above
program I will now need to store logs  in the below format  say for
/var/log/frobnitz/Test_inode_01/ test01.log  and
/var/log/frobnitz/Test_inode_01/ test02.log .. etc

2.   Everything else remains same  and  I am supposed to retain the same
directory structure and logging



Here is what I plan to do :

1.   Use dictionary and Change testcases  variable as dictionary and let
its key store  the subtest cases , so we have a nested dictionary

testcase = {}

testcase[?Test_inode_1?] = createTestCases(LOG_DIR)

2.    Since I need to retain the same logging  directory structure , maybe
I should try to get the key first and then append it to the log file


Question :

1.   Any other simple tips and tricks to solve the problem  ,  I am a Linux
user using python 2.7



Regards,

Ganesh


From venkatachalam.19 at gmail.com  Tue Apr  4 13:07:25 2017
From: venkatachalam.19 at gmail.com (Venkatachalam Srinivasan)
Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2017 10:07:25 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Data exchange between python script and bash script
In-Reply-To: <oc0drf$j7s$1@dont-email.me>
References: <50298d86-e688-4162-b96f-632e5a98c141@googlegroups.com>
 <oc0drf$j7s$1@dont-email.me>
Message-ID: <0e4014e2-ee4a-4177-ad8f-6c0470966a31@googlegroups.com>

On Tuesday, April 4, 2017 at 5:27:42 PM UTC+2, cassiope wrote:
> On Tue, 04 Apr 2017 08:01:42 -0700, venkatachalam.19 wrote:
> 
> > Hello All,
> > 
> > I am writing a python code for processing a data obtained from a sensor. The data from sensor is obtained by executing a python script. The data obtained should be further given to another python module where the received data is used for adjusting the location of an object.
> > 
> > For achieving this, there is a central bash script, which runs both the python modules parallel. Something like:
> > 
> > python a.py &
> > python b.py &
> 
> What is going on that two python scripts are needed?  Which one generates the data needed by the bash script?

One python script communicates with an external sensor and receives data.
Another script controls a robot. That is based on ROS modules.
>From the given code, a.py will be the script generating the data. Both the modules are independent of each other and so I have written both of them in different python scripts.

> 
> > I am trying to return the sensor data to the bash .sh file, therefore it can be provided to the other script. This, based on the online tutorials looks like:
> > 
> > sensor_data=$(python execute_sensor_process.py) &
> 
> Presumably <sensor_data> is simply getting the exit status code from the python interpreter, not the data, right?
> What are you seeing?
>  I am not getting the exit status (I am not setting or printing return status in the python script). I need both the scripts running in parallel. Meaning the sensor will be continuously monitoring the location of the robot and this data will be used in another python script which controls the robot motion.

For now, I am printing the output in the script and as far I understood, this can be assigned to a variable in the bash file from where this file is executed. 

I am not getting any output in the assigned variable in bash.

> > and the sensor_data is assigned by printing the required data in the corresponding python script. For example, the data is printed in execute_sensor_process.py as follows:
> > 
> > print >>sys.stderr,sens_data
> > 
> > By printing the data onto sys.stderr and assigning a return variable in the bash, I am expecting the data to be assigned.
> 
> Assigned to what?  Some return variable in bash?  What??
> Why not use stdout?  Either pipe the data from python directly into a (possibly modified) bash script,
> or into a file which gets read by the bash script.
>  

Yes. As shown in "sensor_data=$(python execute_sensor_process.py) &", the variable sensor_data is assigned to hold the return value from the python script.
I was using the stdout. But in some forums for similar problems, it is suggested to print the data to stderr (I really dont know what is the significance). 
I am unaware of piping the data from python. I will look into this.

 
> > But this is not happening. The sensor data is a dictionary and I like to have this data for further analysis. I am not getting the data returned from the python script on to the bash variable.
> 
> Bash doesn't have dictionaries like python.  Why is bash needed?
>  

Bash is needed to run the different scripts. I tried using multiprocess and thread from python, but really they are not performing parallel processing, when there are completely two different process. I understood it by executing the multiprocess/thread. Sequential operation was happening, which lead to the situation that only one python process is always executed.

> > Can someone help me to understand why the code is not working? I tried other approaches of function call such as
> 
> You haven't given us enough of the code to really answer. 
> 
> > sensor_data=$`python execute_sensor_process.py` &
> > 
> > python execute_sensor_process.py tempfile.txt &
> > kinexon_data=`cat tempfile.txt` &
> > 
> > But none of the approaches are working.
> > 
> > Thank you,
> > Venkatachalam Srinivasan
> 
> I wonder if you could completely eliminate the bash script - do it all in python.
> I've written quite a few bash scripts, but not so many since I started using
> python.  Only exception is for low level functions on systems without a functioning
> python.



From dboland9 at fastmail.fm  Tue Apr  4 13:23:52 2017
From: dboland9 at fastmail.fm (Dave)
Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2017 13:23:52 -0400
Subject: Appending data to a json file
References: <obv26q$140o$1@gioia.aioe.org> <87a87wlowd.fsf@handshake.de>
 <51ace66d-2451-da08-1c4a-4c3819400d8c@gmail.com>
 <mailman.120.1491315483.2961.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <oc0kr7$7sn$1@gioia.aioe.org>

On 04/04/2017 10:17 AM, Michael Torrie wrote:
> On 04/03/2017 11:31 PM, dieter wrote:
>> Dave <dboland9 at fastmail.fm> writes:
>>
>>> I created a python program that gets data from a user, stores the data
>>> as a dictionary in a list of dictionaries.  When the program quits, it
>>> saves the data file.  My desire is to append the new data to the
>>> existing data file as is done with purely text files.
>>
>> Usually, you cannot do that:
>> "JSON" stands for "JavaScript Object Notation":
>
> That's assuming he's using JSON; he never specified what he's using to
> represent data as plain text.  Though I suspect you're correct, for all
> we know he could just be writing data using his own text representation
> or writing to an ini file.  And in his case it sounds like JSON is not
> an ideal method for saving his data since he's wanting to only append
> data, not read it in his program.
>
> In the future, Dave, please provide all the information pertaining to
> the problem so we can give accurate advice. Don't make us guess or
> assume we can all infer this information.
>
I did.  Please see the subject - it is json, not some bastardized 
version of it.  While I didn't explicitly say that the data is read back 
in, it is - when the program starts.  The user can enter more data, then 
save the data to the list (append).  Then, like any other program, they 
can save the data to file.

I don't care for the idea of replacing the data file for every save. My 
preference would to append to the existing data file - makes more sense. 
However, that is not how json works.  So, I'm considering other 
alternatives for a data file structure.  Paired data (key and value) is 
not really required, but my feeling is that it makes the data file more 
robust.  A database seems a little over the top for this situation since 
there is no querying of data - just load and save.

Dave,


From ben+python at benfinney.id.au  Tue Apr  4 13:37:11 2017
From: ben+python at benfinney.id.au (Ben Finney)
Date: Wed, 05 Apr 2017 03:37:11 +1000
Subject: Appending data to a json file
References: <obv26q$140o$1@gioia.aioe.org> <87a87wlowd.fsf@handshake.de>
 <51ace66d-2451-da08-1c4a-4c3819400d8c@gmail.com>
 <mailman.120.1491315483.2961.python-list@python.org>
 <oc0kr7$7sn$1@gioia.aioe.org>
Message-ID: <851st8dqgo.fsf@benfinney.id.au>

Dave <dboland9 at fastmail.fm> writes:

> I don't care for the idea of replacing the data file for every save.

This is the simplest implementation. It works. Can you say why you don't
care for it?

> My preference would to append to the existing data file - makes more
> sense.

Can you expand on that? You haven't defined how that would satisfy the
requirement, so it isn't clear to me why a more complex method ?makes
more sense? than the simple way which works now.

-- 
 \                              ?Holy hole in a donut, Batman!? ?Robin |
  `\                                                                   |
_o__)                                                                  |
Ben Finney



From venkatachalam.19 at gmail.com  Tue Apr  4 13:39:08 2017
From: venkatachalam.19 at gmail.com (Venkatachalam Srinivasan)
Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2017 10:39:08 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Data exchange between python script and bash script
In-Reply-To: <mailman.122.1491320533.2961.python-list@python.org>
References: <50298d86-e688-4162-b96f-632e5a98c141@googlegroups.com>
 <CAO1D73EK-=5jyc-nD7GaVjM3i7ACh8bAT7cJ3GQrMkWmL8h8rg@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.122.1491320533.2961.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <ae8a82f5-7c9a-40ac-b943-035c09f4bf05@googlegroups.com>

On Tuesday, April 4, 2017 at 5:42:23 PM UTC+2, justin walters wrote:
> On Tue, Apr 4, 2017 at 8:01 AM, <venkatachalam.19 at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> > Hello All,
> >
> > I am writing a python code for processing a data obtained from a sensor.
> > The data from sensor is obtained by executing a python script. The data
> > obtained should be further given to another python module where the
> > received data is used for adjusting the location of an object.
> >
> > For achieving this, there is a central bash script, which runs both the
> > python modules parallel. Something like:
> >
> > python a.py &
> > python b.py &
> >
> > I am trying to return the sensor data to the bash .sh file, therefore it
> > can be provided to the other script. This, based on the online tutorials
> > looks like:
> >
> > sensor_data=$(python execute_sensor_process.py) &
> >
> > and the sensor_data is assigned by printing the required data in the
> > corresponding python script. For example, the data is printed in
> > execute_sensor_process.py as follows:
> >
> > print >>sys.stderr,sens_data
> >
> > By printing the data onto sys.stderr and assigning a return variable in
> > the bash, I am expecting the data to be assigned.
> >
> > But this is not happening. The sensor data is a dictionary and I like to
> > have this data for further analysis. I am not getting the data returned
> > from the python script on to the bash variable.
> >
> > Can someone help me to understand why the code is not working? I tried
> > other approaches of function call such as
> >
> >
> > sensor_data=$`python execute_sensor_process.py` &
> >
> >
> > python execute_sensor_process.py tempfile.txt &
> > kinexon_data=`cat tempfile.txt` &
> >
> > But none of the approaches are working.
> >
> > Thank you,
> > Venkatachalam Srinivasan
> > --
> > https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
> >
> 
> I'm not sure why you need the data in a bash script. What can you do with a
> bash script that you
> can't do with Python?
> 
> That said, it seems to me that you need a data persistence layer, i.e. a
> way to store the dictionary
> after it is created. My best advice would be to use the json module to
> write out to json files. I
> believe this is the best approach because json has a near 1-to-1 mapping
> with Python
> dictionaries.
> 
> Json is also a good choice because almost every language has a json parser
> as part of it's standard
> library, making you data extremely portable.

Hi,

Thanks for the answer. I need bash for connecting data exchange between two python scripts. To be more specific, data from one script has to be passed to the another script. You are right, I don't need the data in the bash other than to pass the obtained data to the another script which uses the data for further analysis.

Regarding using the json file, I am new to this. A naive question is that if the data is too large then is json file is easy to handle? Is json file for large data is not computationally expensive? I am not using textfile for the same reason of being computationally expensive.

Thanks,
Venkatachalam Srinivasan


From rhodri at kynesim.co.uk  Tue Apr  4 13:47:02 2017
From: rhodri at kynesim.co.uk (Rhodri James)
Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2017 18:47:02 +0100
Subject: Data exchange between python script and bash script
In-Reply-To: <0e4014e2-ee4a-4177-ad8f-6c0470966a31@googlegroups.com>
References: <50298d86-e688-4162-b96f-632e5a98c141@googlegroups.com>
 <oc0drf$j7s$1@dont-email.me>
 <0e4014e2-ee4a-4177-ad8f-6c0470966a31@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <329cf9c8-841f-6459-ad0e-2bc95c5d2d08@kynesim.co.uk>

On 04/04/17 18:07, Venkatachalam Srinivasan wrote:
> On Tuesday, April 4, 2017 at 5:27:42 PM UTC+2, cassiope wrote:
>> On Tue, 04 Apr 2017 08:01:42 -0700, venkatachalam.19 wrote:
>>
>>> Hello All,
>>>
>>> I am writing a python code for processing a data obtained from a sensor. The data from sensor is obtained by executing a python script. The data obtained should be further given to another python module where the received data is used for adjusting the location of an object.
>>>
>>> For achieving this, there is a central bash script, which runs both the python modules parallel. Something like:
>>>
>>> python a.py &
>>> python b.py &
>>
>> What is going on that two python scripts are needed?  Which one generates the data needed by the bash script?
>
> One python script communicates with an external sensor and receives data.
> Another script controls a robot. That is based on ROS modules.
>>From the given code, a.py will be the script generating the data. Both the modules are independent  [snip]

Except that they clearly aren't, because the operation of one depends on 
the results of the other.  You may need to think harder about that.

It would appear that your main problem is that you don't understand 
bash.  This isn't a Python issue at all, it's about how the shell runs 
programs and gets results back.  We aren't a Bash programming newsgroup 
(or mailing list), and honestly even if we were it seems like you need 
to absorb a lot of basic concepts.  You will be much better off finding 
and reading a decent shell scripting tutorial.  Pay particular attention 
to piping, which appears to be what you are trying to reinvent.  If all 
else fails, Read The Fine Manual; it's not the easiest of reads, but it 
does contain all the information you need.

-- 
Rhodri James *-* Kynesim Ltd


From rgaddi at highlandtechnology.invalid  Tue Apr  4 13:50:22 2017
From: rgaddi at highlandtechnology.invalid (Rob Gaddi)
Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2017 10:50:22 -0700
Subject: Appending data to a json file
In-Reply-To: <oc0kr7$7sn$1@gioia.aioe.org>
References: <obv26q$140o$1@gioia.aioe.org> <87a87wlowd.fsf@handshake.de>
 <51ace66d-2451-da08-1c4a-4c3819400d8c@gmail.com>
 <mailman.120.1491315483.2961.python-list@python.org>
 <oc0kr7$7sn$1@gioia.aioe.org>
Message-ID: <oc0m79$mt3$1@dont-email.me>

On 04/04/2017 10:23 AM, Dave wrote:

>
> I don't care for the idea of replacing the data file for every save. My
> preference would to append to the existing data file - makes more sense.
> However, that is not how json works.  So, I'm considering other
> alternatives for a data file structure.  Paired data (key and value) is
> not really required, but my feeling is that it makes the data file more
> robust.  A database seems a little over the top for this situation since
> there is no querying of data - just load and save.
>
> Dave,

Valid.  That said, the database implementation (especially if you just 
use Sqlite) is written, done, and works.  There are reasons that a lot 
of programs use it just to store things like user settings.  Having a 
backend that's already ACID takes a lot of stress out of things like 
what I'm assuming you don't like about full data file replacement: what 
happens if you get a powerfail midway through.

I'm not saying it's the right answer, but it's not nearly so much 
flyswatting with a sledgehammer as you may think.


-- 
Rob Gaddi, Highland Technology -- www.highlandtechnology.com
Email address domain is currently out of order.  See above to fix.


From walters.justin01 at gmail.com  Tue Apr  4 13:58:36 2017
From: walters.justin01 at gmail.com (justin walters)
Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2017 10:58:36 -0700
Subject: Data exchange between python script and bash script
In-Reply-To: <ae8a82f5-7c9a-40ac-b943-035c09f4bf05@googlegroups.com>
References: <50298d86-e688-4162-b96f-632e5a98c141@googlegroups.com>
 <CAO1D73EK-=5jyc-nD7GaVjM3i7ACh8bAT7cJ3GQrMkWmL8h8rg@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.122.1491320533.2961.python-list@python.org>
 <ae8a82f5-7c9a-40ac-b943-035c09f4bf05@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <CAO1D73HxsoACXtU7wM1b7+R1NKZ2R5Xwi9KscWBN-X=FGoNVLw@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Apr 4, 2017 at 10:39 AM, Venkatachalam Srinivasan <
venkatachalam.19 at gmail.com> wrote:

> Hi,
>
> Thanks for the answer. I need bash for connecting data exchange between
> two python scripts. To be more specific, data from one script has to be
> passed to the another script. You are right, I don't need the data in the
> bash other than to pass the obtained data to the another script which uses
> the data for further analysis.
>
> Regarding using the json file, I am new to this. A naive question is that
> if the data is too large then is json file is easy to handle? Is json file
> for large data is not computationally expensive? I am not using textfile
> for the same reason of being computationally expensive.
>
> Thanks,
> Venkatachalam Srinivasan
> --
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
>

It could be expensive to create a dictionary from the json file depending
on the amount of data.

Alternatively, you could use a Unix socket to transmit the data between
processes
if you're on a linux or OSx machine. This is probably the best option as
you can send the dictionary
object itself. This would eliminate the need for the bash script entirely.
The first script builds the
dictionary object and sends it to the socket. The second script is
listening on the socket and receives
the dictionary object. Python's standard library has built in support for
unix sockets. This means you
can actually run two parallel Python instances and communicate between
them. Assuming that
the first script can build the dictionaries before the second script is
done processing them, you will
probably need some kind of task queue. Celery: http://www.celeryproject.org/
tends to be a good solution
for this problem. In fact, Celery is probably the simplest option now that
I think about it.

Another alternative is using a SQLite database which Python has built in
support for. Should be
a bit faster and less memory-intensive.


From tjreedy at udel.edu  Tue Apr  4 14:03:59 2017
From: tjreedy at udel.edu (Terry Reedy)
Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2017 14:03:59 -0400
Subject: Two variable dictionary comprehension
In-Reply-To: <eke8p8Fo2uqU1@mid.individual.net>
References: <85mvbydxgx.fsf@benfinney.id.au>
 <001d01d2ac38$1c99c030$27b23dae@sambora>
 <mailman.67.1491195995.2961.python-list@python.org>
 <eke8p8Fo2uqU1@mid.individual.net>
Message-ID: <oc0n6b$k8h$1@blaine.gmane.org>

On 4/3/2017 2:35 AM, Gregory Ewing wrote:
> Deborah Swanson wrote:
>
>> Oh, come on. That's a fairly obscure citation in the docs, one that
>> would take a good deal of experience and time reading through them to
>> know was there,

> Having said that, the index of the Python docs could be
> improved a bit in this area -- currently it only mentions
> "list" under "comprehension" (although the page it leads
> to discusses the other types as well).

I am sure that this is because list comprehensions were once thr only 
comprehensions and that the index was not updated when the syntax and 
code was.  I opened issue 29981 "Update Index for set, dict, and 
generator 'comprehensions'".

-- 
Terry Jan Reedy



From dboland9 at fastmail.fm  Tue Apr  4 14:05:28 2017
From: dboland9 at fastmail.fm (Dave)
Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2017 14:05:28 -0400
Subject: Appending data to a json file
References: <obv26q$140o$1@gioia.aioe.org> <87a87wlowd.fsf@handshake.de>
 <51ace66d-2451-da08-1c4a-4c3819400d8c@gmail.com>
 <mailman.120.1491315483.2961.python-list@python.org>
 <oc0kr7$7sn$1@gioia.aioe.org> <oc0m79$mt3$1@dont-email.me>
Message-ID: <oc0n97$cf6$1@gioia.aioe.org>

On 04/04/2017 01:50 PM, Rob Gaddi wrote:
> On 04/04/2017 10:23 AM, Dave wrote:
>
>>
>> I don't care for the idea of replacing the data file for every save. My
>> preference would to append to the existing data file - makes more sense.
>> However, that is not how json works.  So, I'm considering other
>> alternatives for a data file structure.  Paired data (key and value) is
>> not really required, but my feeling is that it makes the data file more
>> robust.  A database seems a little over the top for this situation since
>> there is no querying of data - just load and save.
>>
>> Dave,
>
> Valid.  That said, the database implementation (especially if you just
> use Sqlite) is written, done, and works.  There are reasons that a lot
> of programs use it just to store things like user settings.  Having a
> backend that's already ACID takes a lot of stress out of things like
> what I'm assuming you don't like about full data file replacement: what
> happens if you get a powerfail midway through.
>
> I'm not saying it's the right answer, but it's not nearly so much
> flyswatting with a sledgehammer as you may think.
>
>
I'll take a look at it.  Thanks!

Dave,


From info at wingware.com  Tue Apr  4 14:21:23 2017
From: info at wingware.com (Wingware)
Date: Tue, 04 Apr 2017 14:21:23 -0400
Subject: ANN: Wing Python IDE version 6.0.4 released
Message-ID: <58E3E423.4010707@wingware.com>

Hi,

We've just released Wing 6.0.4 which fixes remote development to systems 
with Python 3, addresses problems seen when switching between remote 
projects and when remote host configurations are missing or invalid, 
fixes text drag-and-drop, solves problems with analysis of some type 
annotations, and makes about 30 other minor improvements.  For details, 
see http://wingware.com/pub/wingide/6.0.4/CHANGELOG.txt

Wing 6 is the latest major release in Wingware's family of Python IDEs, 
including Wing Pro, Wing Personal, and Wing 101.  Wing 6 adds many new 
features, introduces a new annual license option for Wing Pro, and makes 
Wing Personal free.

New Features

  * Improved Multiple Selections:  Quickly add selections and edit them
    all at once
  * Easy Remote Development:  Work seamlessly on remote Linux, OS X, and
    Raspberry Pi systems
  * Debugging in the Python Shell:  Reach breakpoints and exceptions in
    (and from) the Python Shell
  * Recursive Debugging:  Debug code invoked in the context of stack
    frames that are already being debugged
  * PEP 484 and PEP 526 Type Hinting:  Inform Wing's static analysis
    engine of types it cannot infer
  * Support for Python 3.6 and Stackless 3.4:  Use async and other new
    language features
  * Optimized debugger:  Run faster, particularly in multi-process and
    multi-threaded code
  * Support for OS X full screen mode:  Zoom to a virtual screen, with
    auto-hiding menu bar
  * Added a new One Dark color palette:  Enjoy the best dark display
    style yet
  * Updated French and German localizations:  Thanks to Jean Sanchez,
    Laurent Fasnacht, and Christoph Heitkamp

For a more detailed overview of new features see the release notice at 
http://wingware.com/news/2017-04-03

Annual Use License Option

Wing 6 adds the option of purchasing a lower-cost expiring annual 
license for Wing Pro.  An annual license includes access to all 
available Wing Pro versions while it is valid, and then ceases to 
function if it is now renewed.  Pricing for annual licenses is US$ 
179/user for Commercial Use and US$ 69/user for Non-Commercial Use.

Perpetual licenses for Wing Pro will continue to be available at the 
same pricing.

The cost of extending Support+Upgrades subscriptions on Non-Commercial 
Use perpetual licenses for Wing Pro has also been dropped from US$ 89 to 
US$ 39 per user.

For details, see https://wingware.com/store/

Wing Personal is Free

Wing Personal is now free and no longer requires a license to run.  It 
now also includes the Source Browser, PyLint, and OS Commands tools, and 
supports the scripting API and Perspectives.

However, Wing Personal does not include Wing Pro's advanced editing, 
debugging, testing and code management features, such as remote 
development, refactoring, find uses, version control, unit testing, 
interactive debug probe, multi-process and child process debugging, move 
program counter, conditional breakpoints, debug watch, 
framework-specific support (for Jupyter, Django, and others), find 
symbol in project, and other features.

Links

Release notice: http://wingware.com/news/2017-04-03
Downloads and Free Trial: http://wingware.com/downloads
Buy: http://wingware.com/store/purchase
Upgrade: https://wingware.com/store/upgrade

Questions?  Don't hesitate to email us at support at wingware.com.

Thanks,

-- 

Stephan Deibel
Wingware | Python IDE

The Intelligent Development Environment for Python Programmers

wingware.com



From torriem at gmail.com  Tue Apr  4 14:21:32 2017
From: torriem at gmail.com (Michael Torrie)
Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2017 12:21:32 -0600
Subject: Appending data to a json file
In-Reply-To: <oc0kr7$7sn$1@gioia.aioe.org>
References: <obv26q$140o$1@gioia.aioe.org> <87a87wlowd.fsf@handshake.de>
 <51ace66d-2451-da08-1c4a-4c3819400d8c@gmail.com>
 <mailman.120.1491315483.2961.python-list@python.org>
 <oc0kr7$7sn$1@gioia.aioe.org>
Message-ID: <9ff81c13-97ab-314e-43c7-7cd2a7182c1e@gmail.com>

On 04/04/2017 11:23 AM, Dave wrote:
> I did.  Please see the subject - it is json, not some bastardized 
> version of it.  

My fault for not seeing that!  Sorry about the noise.



From grant.b.edwards at gmail.com  Tue Apr  4 14:30:01 2017
From: grant.b.edwards at gmail.com (Grant Edwards)
Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2017 18:30:01 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: Appending data to a json file
References: <obv26q$140o$1@gioia.aioe.org> <87a87wlowd.fsf@handshake.de>
 <51ace66d-2451-da08-1c4a-4c3819400d8c@gmail.com>
 <mailman.120.1491315483.2961.python-list@python.org>
 <oc0kr7$7sn$1@gioia.aioe.org> <851st8dqgo.fsf@benfinney.id.au>
Message-ID: <oc0on9$2aa$1@blaine.gmane.org>

On 2017-04-04, Ben Finney <ben+python at benfinney.id.au> wrote:
> Dave <dboland9 at fastmail.fm> writes:
>
>> I don't care for the idea of replacing the data file for every save.
>
> This is the simplest implementation. It works. Can you say why you don't
> care for it?

After the data is read, it requires reloading the ASR33 with a fresh
spool of unpunched paper tape.

>> My preference would to append to the existing data file - makes
>> more sense.
>
> Can you expand on that? You haven't defined how that would satisfy the
> requirement, so it isn't clear to me why a more complex method ?makes
> more sense? than the simple way which works now.

A big advantage to reading the old file and generating a complete new
file is that you can read the existing file, create a new temporary
file, and then 'rename(2)' the temporary file to replace the old one.

At least on Unix, rename is an filesystem-atomic operation and
provides a far smaller window of vulerability for r/w race conditions,
crash-induced problems, etc.  I assume there's a similar way to do
that under Windows...

-- 
Grant Edwards               grant.b.edwards        Yow! Mary Tyler Moore's
                                  at               SEVENTH HUSBAND is wearing
                              gmail.com            my DACRON TANK TOP in a
                                                   cheap hotel in HONOLULU!



From tjreedy at udel.edu  Tue Apr  4 14:58:56 2017
From: tjreedy at udel.edu (Terry Reedy)
Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2017 14:58:56 -0400
Subject: Two variable dictionary comprehension
In-Reply-To: <00b801d2acc7$006d7b10$27b23dae@sambora>
References: <CAPjBxg8cj_wON-C4xfih4g9EPYot8UAP_VV=dr3jBG7fTOeE_Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <00b801d2acc7$006d7b10$27b23dae@sambora>
Message-ID: <oc0qdb$o8i$1@blaine.gmane.org>

On 4/3/2017 6:09 PM, Deborah Swanson wrote:
> Nathan Ernst wrote, on April 03, 2017 1:59 PM
>>
>> I was a bit surprised when I looked at the language reference
>> for 3.6.x. I expected there'd be a direct link to
>> comprehensions, but there's not.
...
>> FWIW, If one was completely new to Python, even knowing the
>> syntax is known as a "comprehension" might be unknown. I
>> certainly didn't know what a comprehension was when I was
>> learning Python. A coworker showed me, some 13 years ago.

> Thanks Nate, for your comprehension of the plight of many, if not most,
> newish Python coders. And it certainly doesn't help to ask the list to
> fill in some of the holes and be met with criticism for asking, but I
> digress. It is what it is.

I have more than once looked at the Reference TOC: Expressions
https://docs.python.org/3/reference/index.html
and wondered 'where are comprehensions?' (and a few other things).  I 
just opened Issue 29983: "Reference TOC: expand 'Atoms' and 
'Primaries'", https://bugs.python.org/issue29983, suggesting that

6.2. Atoms
6.3. Primaries

be expanded to

6.2. Atoms, including identifiers, literals, and comprehensions
6.3. Primaries: attributes, subscripts, slices, and calls

The 'primaries' list is complete.  The full 'atoms' list is too long so 
I picked what I thought might be the three most important and added 
'including' to indicate that this is a selection.

There might be opposition (or just +-0 indifference) from developers who 
are CS language theory wonks who have forgotten how obscure the terms 
'atom' and 'primary' are in this context.  So anyone supporting this 
should say so on the issue.

https://bugs.python.org/issue29981, adding index entries, should be 
routine, but at least one +1 would be helpful.

-- 
Terry Jan Reedy



From ben+python at benfinney.id.au  Tue Apr  4 15:57:08 2017
From: ben+python at benfinney.id.au (Ben Finney)
Date: Wed, 05 Apr 2017 05:57:08 +1000
Subject: [ANNOUNCE] Mail Drake version 0.1.7
Message-ID: <85lgrgc5ez.fsf@benfinney.id.au>

Howdy all,

I am pleased to present Mail Drake (version 0.1.7), now available at
PyPI <URL:https://pypi.python.org/pypi/maildrake>.

Mail Drake is a development tool for testing email traffic.

Run Mail Drake?s SMTP server on a local port, send email to it, and
inspect the message queue in a local web browser.

Mail Drake is free software, via the Affero GPL v3 or later.


Documentation in this version is very sparse. The commands installed
have help (via the ?--help? option) which is the best I can point you to
currently.

I'd be happy to have feedback, and even happier to have contributors
make merge requests. Documentation improvements would be especially
worthwhile!

-- 
 \         ?Of all classes the rich are the most noticed and the least |
  `\      studied.? ?John Kenneth Galbraith, _The Age of Uncertainty_, |
_o__)                                                             1977 |
Ben Finney



From python at mrabarnett.plus.com  Tue Apr  4 16:51:58 2017
From: python at mrabarnett.plus.com (MRAB)
Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2017 21:51:58 +0100
Subject: Appending data to a json file
In-Reply-To: <2hu7ech2s393iu0j4i21cfl0tbb1go24ft@4ax.com>
References: <obv26q$140o$1@gioia.aioe.org> <87a87wlowd.fsf@handshake.de>
 <51ace66d-2451-da08-1c4a-4c3819400d8c@gmail.com>
 <mailman.120.1491315483.2961.python-list@python.org>
 <oc0kr7$7sn$1@gioia.aioe.org> <2hu7ech2s393iu0j4i21cfl0tbb1go24ft@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <54efe7bb-51aa-1e88-cccd-329da7679d19@mrabarnett.plus.com>

On 2017-04-04 21:00, Dennis Lee Bieber wrote:
> On Tue, 4 Apr 2017 13:23:52 -0400, Dave <dboland9 at fastmail.fm> declaimed
> the following:
>
>
>>I don't care for the idea of replacing the data file for every save. My
>>preference would to append to the existing data file - makes more sense.
>>However, that is not how json works.  So, I'm considering other
>>alternatives for a data file structure.  Paired data (key and value) is
>>not really required, but my feeling is that it makes the data file more
>>robust.  A database seems a little over the top for this situation since
>>there is no querying of data - just load and save.
>
> 	Somebody must eventually have to retrieve stuff from this file for some
> use; otherwise it is nothing but an ever-expanding waste of disk space.
>
> 	A database, at the very least, means you never have to read the old
> contents before adding new data. However, lacking any indication of /what/
> the data contains ("dictionary of dictionaries" only indicates a nested
> structure at the top level -- but does not indicate if it is possible for
> an "append" pass to overwrite a pre-existing subdictionary should the outer
> dictionary key be a duplicate).
>
> 	Possibly a CSV format would suffice...
>
Would the 'shelve' module module suffice? (OK, it's not plain text, but 
neither is a DB.)



From python at deborahswanson.net  Tue Apr  4 18:34:11 2017
From: python at deborahswanson.net (Deborah Swanson)
Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2017 15:34:11 -0700
Subject: Two variable dictionary comprehension
In-Reply-To: <oc0n6b$k8h$1@blaine.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <00c601d2ad93$95340da0$27b23dae@sambora>

Terry Reedy wrote, on Tuesday, April 04, 2017 11:04 AM
> 
> On 4/3/2017 2:35 AM, Gregory Ewing wrote:
> > Deborah Swanson wrote:
> >
> >> Oh, come on. That's a fairly obscure citation in the docs, 
> one that 
> >> would take a good deal of experience and time reading 
> through them to 
> >> know was there,
> 
> > Having said that, the index of the Python docs could be 
> improved a bit 
> > in this area -- currently it only mentions "list" under 
> > "comprehension" (although the page it leads to discusses the other 
> > types as well).
> 
> I am sure that this is because list comprehensions were once thr only 
> comprehensions and that the index was not updated when the syntax and 
> code was.  I opened issue 29981 "Update Index for set, dict, and 
> generator 'comprehensions'".
> 
> -- 
> Terry Jan Reedy

Thanks Terry. I does seem strange that there are so many types of
comprehensions, yet under 'comprehensions' in the Index, you only see
'list'. And there are no entries for the other types, by their names.

Deborah



From rgaddi at highlandtechnology.invalid  Tue Apr  4 18:56:14 2017
From: rgaddi at highlandtechnology.invalid (Rob Gaddi)
Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2017 15:56:14 -0700
Subject: Two variable dictionary comprehension
In-Reply-To: <mailman.140.1491345239.2961.python-list@python.org>
References: <oc0n6b$k8h$1@blaine.gmane.org>
 <00c601d2ad93$95340da0$27b23dae@sambora>
 <mailman.140.1491345239.2961.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <oc184q$q7m$1@dont-email.me>

On 04/04/2017 03:34 PM, Deborah Swanson wrote:
> Terry Reedy wrote, on Tuesday, April 04, 2017 11:04 AM
>>
>> On 4/3/2017 2:35 AM, Gregory Ewing wrote:
>>> Deborah Swanson wrote:
>>>
>>>> Oh, come on. That's a fairly obscure citation in the docs,
>> one that
>>>> would take a good deal of experience and time reading
>> through them to
>>>> know was there,
>>
>>> Having said that, the index of the Python docs could be
>> improved a bit
>>> in this area -- currently it only mentions "list" under
>>> "comprehension" (although the page it leads to discusses the other
>>> types as well).
>>
>> I am sure that this is because list comprehensions were once thr only
>> comprehensions and that the index was not updated when the syntax and
>> code was.  I opened issue 29981 "Update Index for set, dict, and
>> generator 'comprehensions'".
>>
>> --
>> Terry Jan Reedy
>
> Thanks Terry. I does seem strange that there are so many types of
> comprehensions, yet under 'comprehensions' in the Index, you only see
> 'list'. And there are no entries for the other types, by their names.
>
> Deborah
>

Does it seem... incomprehensible?

-- 
Rob Gaddi, Highland Technology -- www.highlandtechnology.com
Email address domain is currently out of order.  See above to fix.


From python at deborahswanson.net  Tue Apr  4 19:10:16 2017
From: python at deborahswanson.net (Deborah Swanson)
Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2017 16:10:16 -0700
Subject: Two variable dictionary comprehension
In-Reply-To: <58e2f123$0$1584$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
Message-ID: <000701d2ad98$a03185c0$27b23dae@sambora>

Sorry I bailed on you last night, but you know it's bad when you can't
read anymore.

I read through this today and saw several things I really need to work
with more, especially dicts, sets, generators and the zip function. I've
used all of them in fairly typical forms, but it's the atypical ones
that throw me. And strangely enough, I've never seen dicts described as
having key:value syntax, although it's certainly true and clarifies a
lot in thinking about them.

The one thing you mentioned that was completely new to me was the use of
an if clause in a list comprehension, and I can see there being times
when that's exactly what you want to do. I'll have to try the other
types of comprehensions and see if this same grammar works in all of
them. It should. Interesting how computer languages seem to be a hybrid
of math and linguistics.

I added all of these concepts and code snippets to my study list. Thanks
again Steve.  ;)

Deborah


Steve D'Aprano wrote, on Monday, April 03, 2017 6:05 PM
> 
> On Tue, 4 Apr 2017 03:27 am, Deborah Swanson wrote:
> 
> > I'll admit that both dictionaries and comprehensions are still a 
> > little bit fuzzy to me, especially when I get away from the common 
> > usages. This could be a good exercise to clarify some of the fuzzy 
> > areas.
> 
> 
> As far as comprehensions go, how is your mathematics?
> 
> If you remember your set builder notation from maths, list 
> comprehensions are based on that.
> 
> In maths, we say something like:
> 
> {2n + 1 : 0 ? n ? 9}
> 
> which might be read aloud as "the set of 2 times n, plus 1, 
> such that n is between 0 and 9 inclusive".
> 
> http://www.mathwords.com/s/set_builder_notation.htm
> 
> A similar notation might be:
> 
> {2n + 1 : n ? {1, 2, 3}}
> 
> said as "the set of 2 times n, plus 1, such that n is an 
> element of the set {1, 2, 3}".
> 
> 
> If you're a maths geek like me, this is second nature :-)
> 
> 
> Now, Python's list comprehension syntax is based on a similar 
> notation, except we spell it out in words rather than 
> symbols, using the familiar "for n in ..." syntax from 
> for-loops instead of : "such that".
> 
> {2*n + 1 for n in range(10)}
> 
> {2*n + 1 for n in (1, 2, 3)}
> 
> 
> A few other differences:
> 
> - list comprehensions use [ ] for the outermost brackets;
> - set and dict comprehensions use { };
> - generator expressions use ( ) (unless the parentheses can 
> be implied).
> 
> We're not restricted to mathematical expressions, and can use 
> any Python expression we like:
> 
> [value.method(arg)[1] for (value, arg) in zip(values, arguments)]
> 
> 
> translates roughly into this for-loop:
> 
> result = []
> for (value, arg) in zip(values, arguments):
>     result.append(value.method(arg)[1])
> 
> 
> 
> Another difference is that comprehensions allow an "if" clause:
> 
> [v.method(a)[1] for (v, a) in zip(values, arguments) if v is not None]
> 
> translates something like:
> 
> 
> result = []
> for (v, a) in zip(values, arguments):
>     if v is not None:
>         result.append(v.method(a)[1])
> 
> 
> There's more, but that covers probably 98% of comprehension usage.
> 
> And of course, remember that dict comprehensions use the same 
> key:value syntax as ordinary dict "literals" (the official 
> name is "dict display").
> 
> result = {}
> for key, value in zip(keys, values):
>     result[key] = value
> 
> 
> becomes
> 
> result = {key:value for (key, value) in zip(keys, values)}
> 
> although frankly that's better written as:
> 
> dict(zip(keys, values))
> 
> 
> 
> Hope this helps!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Steve
> ?Cheer up,? they said, ?things could be worse.? So I cheered 
> up, and sure enough, things got worse.
> 
> -- 
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
> 



From mikhailwas at gmail.com  Tue Apr  4 19:10:28 2017
From: mikhailwas at gmail.com (Mikhail V)
Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2017 01:10:28 +0200
Subject: Text-mode apps (Was :Who are the "spacists"?)
Message-ID: <CAE6NSRDcxOADafN0afNP_7bY-Yd4rsmsq3iPvKd1Svh2mra90Q@mail.gmail.com>

On 3 April 2017 at 19:55, Steve D'Aprano <steve+python at pearwood.info> wrote:

> I didn't see you calling out Rick for his prejudice against those who aren't
> American, his absurd belief that "most" people are satisfied with ASCII,

Hmm... that is interesting.
Everyone has some beliefs...
If I make a bit more on-topic question:
What is "satisfied" with ASCII, or what is
"we need Unicode", where and what for?
What is your "satisfaction" with Unicode?

For me it is a font, where images given
numbers, ok, then we need obviosly to
look at it,  e.g.  if you make a codec.

So you are just stating the fact that font files
store them in this order and a txt file in Notepad
will show them in correct order?
hmm... I just thought you have some idea,
e.g. what glyphs you adore esthetically
or find especially useful in your life.

Which of some 40 images that are needed for _you_
to represent speech and numbers, you find
IDK, appealing or annoying, or what?

In typesetting, I find annoying caps inculsion, too
little space between sentences and not so good separator
character design, some flaws in letter design.
For development purposes I would need some
glyphs for non-printable characters, ok
few glyphs more.

Tak zachem _nuzhen_ Unikod ?
Rasskazhi chto-nibud interesnoe.


From python at deborahswanson.net  Tue Apr  4 19:22:51 2017
From: python at deborahswanson.net (Deborah Swanson)
Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2017 16:22:51 -0700
Subject: Two variable dictionary comprehension
In-Reply-To: <oc184q$q7m$1@dont-email.me>
Message-ID: <000b01d2ad9a$61a8b1a0$27b23dae@sambora>

Rob Gaddi wrote, on Tuesday, April 04, 2017 3:56 PM
> 
> On 04/04/2017 03:34 PM, Deborah Swanson wrote:
> > Terry Reedy wrote, on Tuesday, April 04, 2017 11:04 AM
> >>
> >> I am sure that this is because list comprehensions were once thr
only 
> >> comprehensions and that the index was not updated when the syntax
and 
> >> code was.  I opened issue 29981 "Update Index for set, dict, and 
> >> generator 'comprehensions'".
> >>
> >> --
> >> Terry Jan Reedy
> >
> > Thanks Terry. I does seem strange that there are so many types of 
> > comprehensions, yet under 'comprehensions' in the Index, you only
see 
> > 'list'. And there are no entries for the other types, by their
names.
> >
> > Deborah
> >
> 
> Does it seem... incomprehensible?
> 
> -- 
> Rob Gaddi, Highland Technology -- www.highlandtechnology.com 
> Email address domain is currently out of order.  See above to fix.

Ha ha! Indeed it does. Funny how 'comprehension' word forms so easily
fall into puns.

Deborah



From fleshw at gmail.com  Tue Apr  4 22:40:03 2017
From: fleshw at gmail.com (fleshw at gmail.com)
Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2017 19:40:03 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Does automatic golden master unittest generation exist/or is it
 feasible?
Message-ID: <7bcc0a39-8d39-43a0-abc3-1bdbfbaa2ac7@googlegroups.com>

I have a really large and mature codebase in py2, but with no test or documentation.

To resolve this I just had a simple idea to automatically generate tests and this is how:

1. Have a decorator that logs all arguments and return values

2. Put them in a test case

and have it run in production.

Here's a quick prototype I just wrote, just to illustrate what I'm trying to achieve:

http://codepad.org/bkHRbZ4R

People told me that there's a similar concept called "Golden Master Testing" where it keeps a "golden record" and runs test case on it. So it looks like I'm trying to automate golden master testing.

So my question is this: 

1. Is this a concept already explored?

2. Is there already a framework for doing this? 


From steve at pearwood.info  Tue Apr  4 23:43:51 2017
From: steve at pearwood.info (Steven D'Aprano)
Date: 05 Apr 2017 03:43:51 GMT
Subject: Does automatic golden master unittest generation exist/or is it
 feasible?
References: <7bcc0a39-8d39-43a0-abc3-1bdbfbaa2ac7@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <58e467f6$0$1502$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>

On Tue, 04 Apr 2017 19:40:03 -0700, fleshw wrote:

> People told me that there's a similar concept called "Golden Master
> Testing" where it keeps a "golden record" and runs test case on it. So
> it looks like I'm trying to automate golden master testing.
> 
> So my question is this:
> 
> 1. Is this a concept already explored?

https://duckduckgo.com/?q=Golden+Master+Testing

https://www.google.com.au/search?q=Golden+Master+Testing


Gold master testing is not a substitute for unit tests. The purpose of 
gold master testing is different: not the ensure that the code is 
correct, but to ensure that the behaviour *doesn't change*. Or at least 
not without a human review to ensure the change is desired.

You would use gold master testing when you have a legacy code base that 
needs refactoring. You don't care so much about fixing bugs (either there 
aren't any known bugs, or you have to keep them for backwards 
compatibility, or simply there's no budget for fixing them yet) but you 
care about keeping the behaviour unchanged as you refactor the code.

If that describes your situation, then gold master testing is worth 
pursuing. If not, then forget about it. Just write some unit tests.

I like small functions that take some arguments, do one thing, and return 
a result without any side-effects. They are very easy to test using 
doctests. Doctests make good documentation too, so you can kill two birds 
with one stone. Write doctests.

For anything too complicated for a doctest, or for extensive and detailed 
functional tests that exercise all the corners of your function, write 
unit tests. The `unittest` module can run your doctests too, 
automatically turning your doctests into a test case.

If your code base is well-designed, with lots of encapsulation, then 
writing unit tests are easy.

If its not... well, you have my sympathy.


 
> 2. Is there already a framework for doing this?

This came up in googling. I make no comment about its maturity, 
functionality, bugginess or overall quality, as I have never used it.

https://github.com/approvals/ApprovalTests.Python



-- 
Steve


From steve at pearwood.info  Wed Apr  5 01:39:23 2017
From: steve at pearwood.info (Steven D'Aprano)
Date: 05 Apr 2017 05:39:23 GMT
Subject: using HTTPHandler cause Django server side shows http 400 and
 Invalid HTTP_HOST header message
References: <41b72e7a-8479-4901-9397-44bae30bee9c@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <58e4830b$0$1502$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>

On Tue, 04 Apr 2017 21:06:23 -0700, iMath wrote:

> For those want to help, I also posted The question here
> http://stackoverflow.com/questions/43185804/using-httphandler-cause-
django-server-side-shows-http-400-and-invalid-http-host
> 
> 
> I am using HTTPHandler to send logging messages to a Django Web server
> with The following code,

Are you sure you posted the code you are actually using? Because the 
error message suggests a difference.

You have:

> _TARGET = '192.168.8.100:8000'

but the error message says:

> Invalid HTTP_HOST header: '192.168.8.100:8000,192.168.8.100'. 

'192.168.8.100:8000,192.168.8.100' is not the same address you say you 
are using. (And it is not a valid address, just as the error message 
states.)



I might be entirely wrong here, I'm not a Django expert, but it sure 
looks to me like a simple mistake in your code. It would be good if you 
could confirm that's not the case before people spend time trying to 
debug something in code they can't see.




-- 
Steve


From dieter at handshake.de  Wed Apr  5 04:20:40 2017
From: dieter at handshake.de (dieter)
Date: Wed, 05 Apr 2017 10:20:40 +0200
Subject: Data transmission from Python script to bash script
References: <92a819af-f997-4140-b1dc-74ee757036cf@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <87lgrf5kpz.fsf@handshake.de>

venkatachalam.19 at gmail.com writes:
> ...
> I am writing a python code for processing a data obtained from a sensor. The data from sensor is obtained by executing a python script. The data obtained should be further given to another python module where the received data is used for adjusting the location of an object.
>
> For achieving this, there is a central bash script, which runs both the python modules parallel. Something like:
>
> python a.py &
> python b.py &
>
> I am trying to return the sensor data to the bash .sh file, therefore it can be provided to the other script.

I would recommend, do not do it this way.

On an abstract level, I recommend to use a communication channel
between your "a" and your "b". "a" writes to it and "b" reads from it.

There are many, many options for such a communication channel.

One of the easiest would be to realisize "a" and "b" as tasks
in a single Python process which use a queue as communication channel.
The big advantage: "a" and "b" can communicate directly via python
objects.

Another option would be to implement the communication channel
via an external queue or file; in those cases, the Python object
created by "a" would need to be serialized (to be put into
the communication channel) and derialized (i.e. recreated) again by "b".



From dieter at handshake.de  Wed Apr  5 04:30:01 2017
From: dieter at handshake.de (dieter)
Date: Wed, 05 Apr 2017 10:30:01 +0200
Subject: Does automatic golden master unittest generation exist/or is it
 feasible?
References: <7bcc0a39-8d39-43a0-abc3-1bdbfbaa2ac7@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <87h9235kae.fsf@handshake.de>

fleshw at gmail.com writes:

> I have a really large and mature codebase in py2, but with no test or documentation.
>
> To resolve this I just had a simple idea to automatically generate tests and this is how:
>
> 1. Have a decorator that logs all arguments and return values
>
> 2. Put them in a test case
>
> and have it run in production.

This works only for quite simple cases -- cases without state.

If you have something with state, than some function calls
may change the state and thereby changing the effect of later
function calls. This means: the same function call (same function,
same arguments) may give different results over time.

As a consequence, the initial state and the execution order
becomes important.



From as at sci.fi  Wed Apr  5 08:37:23 2017
From: as at sci.fi (Anssi Saari)
Date: Wed, 05 Apr 2017 15:37:23 +0300
Subject: Data exchange between python script and bash script
References: <50298d86-e688-4162-b96f-632e5a98c141@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <vg3lgrfm3ng.fsf@coffee.modeemi.fi>

venkatachalam.19 at gmail.com writes:

> For example, the data is printed in
> execute_sensor_process.py as follows:
>
> print >>sys.stderr,sens_data
>
> By printing the data onto sys.stderr and assigning a return variable in the bash, I am expecting the data to be assigned.
>
> But this is not happening.

This part I can answer alhtough I'm not sure it helps with your actual
problems. 

Bash manual explicitly states command substition (the $(...) structure)
replaces the command with the standard *output* of the command. So since
your Python program writes to standard error, you get nothing.



From davidgshi at yahoo.co.uk  Wed Apr  5 08:57:11 2017
From: davidgshi at yahoo.co.uk (David Shi)
Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2017 12:57:11 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: How to make use of .egg files?
References: <2053193475.1923614.1491397031348.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <2053193475.1923614.1491397031348@mail.yahoo.com>

Can anyone explain please.
Regards.
David

From Ralf.Hildebrandt at charite.de  Wed Apr  5 09:39:51 2017
From: Ralf.Hildebrandt at charite.de (Ralf Hildebrandt)
Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2017 15:39:51 +0200
Subject: How to make use of .egg files?
In-Reply-To: <2053193475.1923614.1491397031348@mail.yahoo.com>
References: <2053193475.1923614.1491397031348.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
 <2053193475.1923614.1491397031348@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20170405133951.blp7h5v4hl2x5sl3@charite.de>

* David Shi via Python-list <python-list at python.org>:
> Can anyone explain please.

http://stackoverflow.com/questions/2051192/what-is-a-python-egg

-- 
Ralf Hildebrandt                   Charite Universit?tsmedizin Berlin
ralf.hildebrandt at charite.de        Campus Benjamin Franklin
https://www.charite.de             Hindenburgdamm 30, 12203 Berlin
Gesch?ftsbereich IT, Abt. Netzwerk fon: +49-30-450.570.155


From breamoreboy at gmail.com  Wed Apr  5 10:28:36 2017
From: breamoreboy at gmail.com (breamoreboy at gmail.com)
Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2017 07:28:36 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: How to make use of .egg files?
In-Reply-To: <mailman.153.1491397228.2961.python-list@python.org>
References: <2053193475.1923614.1491397031348.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
 <2053193475.1923614.1491397031348@mail.yahoo.com>
 <mailman.153.1491397228.2961.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <b4be725d-13cc-4978-9e8f-690c934b168b@googlegroups.com>

On Wednesday, April 5, 2017 at 2:00:41 PM UTC+1, David Shi wrote:
> Can anyone explain please.
> Regards.
> David

Egg files are old, wheels are the new thing http://pythonwheels.com/

Kindest regards.

Mark Lawrence.


From neilc at norwich.edu  Wed Apr  5 10:49:21 2017
From: neilc at norwich.edu (Neil Cerutti)
Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2017 14:49:21 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: "pandas" pronunciation
References: <fe186d14-11fb-45b3-8acf-ba65645bb5a8@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <oc305h$l3q$2@blaine.gmane.org>

On 2017-04-03, Jay Braun <lyngwyst at gmail.com> wrote:
> I hear people say it like the plural of "panda", and others as
> "panduss".  Is there a correct way?

I think it is pronounced like the regular word. The second a is
schwa in both the singular and plural.

-- 
Neil Cerutti



From python at example.invalid  Wed Apr  5 11:09:38 2017
From: python at example.invalid (Python)
Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2017 17:09:38 +0200
Subject: Quick questions about globals and database connections
References: <oc308v$s18$2@dont-email.me>
Message-ID: <oc31bg$ja4$1@gioia.aioe.org>

Le 05/04/2017 ? 16:54, DFS a ?crit :
> I have identical databases in sqlite and postgres.  I want to run the
> same code against them, but am having a small issue.
>
> Current code below throws the dreaded:
>
> NameError: global name 'db' is not defined
>
> on line 12
>
> How do I fix it?  I want to keep dbconnect() as a separate function.
>
> Thanks.
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------
> 1 import sqlite3, psycopg2
> 2
> 3 def dbconnect(dbtype):
> 4   if dbtype == "sqlite":
> 5     conn = sqlite3.connect(cstr)
> 6   elif dbtype == "postgres":
> 7     conn = psycopg2.connect(cstr)

8   return conn.cursor()

> 9
> 10 def updatedb(dbtype):

11   db = dbconnect(dbtype)

> 12   db.execute("DML code")
> 13   print "updated " + dbtype
> 14   'close connection
>
> 15 def main():
> 16   updatedb('sqlite')
> 17   updatedb('postgres')
> 18
> 19 if __name__ == "__main__":
> 20   main()
> -------------------------------------------------------------
>
>



From joel.goldstick at gmail.com  Wed Apr  5 11:17:12 2017
From: joel.goldstick at gmail.com (Joel Goldstick)
Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2017 11:17:12 -0400
Subject: Quick questions about globals and database connections
In-Reply-To: <oc31bg$ja4$1@gioia.aioe.org>
References: <oc308v$s18$2@dont-email.me> <oc31bg$ja4$1@gioia.aioe.org>
Message-ID: <CAPM-O+w7U8sP-2uk0JoHxLE4AVFrDh9m+EJOYPZXXCUXHRgedw@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Apr 5, 2017 at 11:09 AM, Python <python at example.invalid> wrote:
> Le 05/04/2017 ? 16:54, DFS a ?crit :
>>
>> I have identical databases in sqlite and postgres.  I want to run the
>> same code against them, but am having a small issue.
>>
>> Current code below throws the dreaded:
>>
>> NameError: global name 'db' is not defined
>>
>> on line 12
>>
>> How do I fix it?  I want to keep dbconnect() as a separate function.
>>
>> Thanks.
>>
>> -------------------------------------------------------------
>> 1 import sqlite3, psycopg2
>> 2
>> 3 def dbconnect(dbtype):
>> 4   if dbtype == "sqlite":
>> 5     conn = sqlite3.connect(cstr)
>> 6   elif dbtype == "postgres":
>> 7     conn = psycopg2.connect(cstr)
>
>
> 8   return conn.cursor()
>
>> 9
>> 10 def updatedb(dbtype):
>
>
> 11   db = dbconnect(dbtype)
>
>> 12   db.execute("DML code")
>> 13   print "updated " + dbtype
>> 14   'close connection
>>
>> 15 def main():
>> 16   updatedb('sqlite')
>> 17   updatedb('postgres')
>> 18
>> 19 if __name__ == "__main__":
>> 20   main()
>> -------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>>
>
> --
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

You may have an indentation problem that isn't apparent in your code
pasted here.  Are you sure that dbconnect always returns something?

-- 
Joel Goldstick
http://joelgoldstick.com/blog
http://cc-baseballstats.info/stats/birthdays


From gordon at panix.com  Wed Apr  5 11:22:02 2017
From: gordon at panix.com (John Gordon)
Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2017 15:22:02 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: Quick questions about globals and database connections
References: <oc308v$s18$2@dont-email.me>
Message-ID: <oc322q$4h7$1@reader1.panix.com>

In <oc308v$s18$2 at dont-email.me> DFS <nospam at dfs.com> writes:

> I have identical databases in sqlite and postgres.  I want to run the 
> same code against them, but am having a small issue.

> Current code below throws the dreaded:

> NameError: global name 'db' is not defined

> on line 12

> How do I fix it?  I want to keep dbconnect() as a separate function.

Instead of trying to make db global, dbconnect() can return the db object:

    def dbconnect(dbtype):
        if dbtype == "sqlite":
            conn = sqlite3.connect(cstr)
        elif dbtype == "postgres":
            conn = psycopg2.connect(cstr)
        return conn.cursor()

    def updatedb(dbtype):
        db = dbconnect(dbtype)
        db.execute("DML code")
        print "updated " + dbtype
        'close connection

It would probably be even better to return conn, as that would allow
updatedb() to call conn.disconnect().

-- 
John Gordon                   A is for Amy, who fell down the stairs
gordon at panix.com              B is for Basil, assaulted by bears
                                -- Edward Gorey, "The Gashlycrumb Tinies"



From davidgshi at yahoo.co.uk  Wed Apr  5 11:30:55 2017
From: davidgshi at yahoo.co.uk (David Shi)
Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2017 15:30:55 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: How to capture a CSV file and read it into a Pandas Dataframe?
References: <1483290626.909143.1491406255368.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <1483290626.909143.1491406255368@mail.yahoo.com>



I tried the following codes:
import urllib2response = urllib2.urlopen('http://cordis.europa.eu/search/result_en?q=uk&format=csv')myCSV = response.read()
myFile = pd.read_csv(myCSV)

but, it did not work well.
Can any one help?
Regards.
David

From dan at tombstonezero.net  Wed Apr  5 11:31:37 2017
From: dan at tombstonezero.net (Dan Sommers)
Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2017 15:31:37 -0000 (UTC)
Subject: Quick questions about globals and database connections
References: <oc308v$s18$2@dont-email.me>
Message-ID: <oc32kp$4pd$1@dont-email.me>

On Wed, 05 Apr 2017 10:54:29 -0400, DFS wrote:

> I have identical databases in sqlite and postgres.  I want to run the 
> same code against them, but am having a small issue.
> 
> Current code below throws the dreaded:
> 
> NameError: global name 'db' is not defined
> 
> on line 12
> 
> How do I fix it?  I want to keep dbconnect() as a separate function.
> 
> Thanks.
> 
> -------------------------------------------------------------
> 1 import sqlite3, psycopg2
> 2
> 3 def dbconnect(dbtype):
> 4   if dbtype == "sqlite":
> 5     conn = sqlite3.connect(cstr)
> 6   elif dbtype == "postgres":
> 7     conn = psycopg2.connect(cstr)
> 8   db = conn.cursor()

This line just sets db locally to dbconnect.

You'll have to return it in order to use it elsewhere.

Add a line like this:

    return db

> 9	
> 10 def updatedb(dbtype):
> 11   dbconnect(dbtype)

And then use the return value from dbconnect to create a new db locally
to updatedb:

    db = dbconnect(dbtype)

> 12   db.execute("DML code")
> 13   print "updated " + dbtype
> 14   'close connection
> 
> 15 def main():
> 16   updatedb('sqlite')
> 17   updatedb('postgres')
> 18
> 19 if __name__ == "__main__":
> 20   main()
> -------------------------------------------------------------

HTH,
Dan


From skip.montanaro at gmail.com  Wed Apr  5 12:19:00 2017
From: skip.montanaro at gmail.com (Skip Montanaro)
Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2017 11:19:00 -0500
Subject: How to capture a CSV file and read it into a Pandas Dataframe?
In-Reply-To: <1483290626.909143.1491406255368@mail.yahoo.com>
References: <1483290626.909143.1491406255368.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
 <1483290626.909143.1491406255368@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <CANc-5UwLppYhzJ_Z0-HvmmYTSqQf-aa+ap2mZuK_uvLX85Oz9g@mail.gmail.com>

I'm not positive, but try passing response to read_csv() instead of reading
the bytes yourself.

Skip

On Apr 5, 2017 10:38 AM, "David Shi via Python-list" <python-list at python.org>
wrote:

>
>
> I tried the following codes:
> import urllib2response = urllib2.urlopen('http://cordis.europa.eu/search/
> result_en?q=uk&format=csv')myCSV = response.read()
> myFile = pd.read_csv(myCSV)
>
> but, it did not work well.
> Can any one help?
> Regards.
> David
> --
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
>


From __peter__ at web.de  Wed Apr  5 12:24:29 2017
From: __peter__ at web.de (Peter Otten)
Date: Wed, 05 Apr 2017 18:24:29 +0200
Subject: How to capture a CSV file and read it into a Pandas Dataframe?
References: <1483290626.909143.1491406255368.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
 <1483290626.909143.1491406255368@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <oc35nn$afq$1@blaine.gmane.org>

David Shi via Python-list wrote:

> I tried the following codes:
> import urllib2response =
> 
urllib2.urlopen('http://cordis.europa.eu/search/result_en?q=uk&format=csv')myCSV
> = response.read() myFile = pd.read_csv(myCSV)
> 
> but, it did not work well.
> Can any one help?

Looks like read_csv() accepts an URL:

>>> import pandas
>>> url = "http://cordis.europa.eu/search/result_en?q=uk&format=csv"
>>> df = pandas.read_csv(url, sep=";")
>>> df.Title[0]
'Incremental Nonlinear flight Control supplemented with Envelope ProtecTION 
techniques'




From rgacote at appropriatesolutions.com  Wed Apr  5 14:14:48 2017
From: rgacote at appropriatesolutions.com (Ray Cote)
Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2017 14:14:48 -0400
Subject: Python 3.6 printing crashing on OS X 10.12.4
Message-ID: <CAG5tnzrh00x4HBD6VXySSbBxGBKs3EF1MwjG_CX8mD1pg6f9Vw@mail.gmail.com>

Hello:

Python 3.6 crashing when trying to print from the environment.

$ python
Python 3.6.1 (default, Mar 22 2017, 15:53:21)
[GCC 4.2.1 Compatible Apple LLVM 8.0.0 (clang-800.0.42.1)] on darwin
Type "help", "copyright", "credits" or "license" for more information.
>>> print("hello")

Python(53390,0x7fffdd9e63c0) malloc: *** error for object 0x10dde4110:
pointer being freed was not allocated
*** set a breakpoint in malloc_error_break to debug
Abort trap: 6


Pastebin link to OS X crash report if that?s helpful:
https://pastebin.com/t1j3nz5L


1: Python installed via ports.
2: OS X 10.12.4.
3: Python 3.6.1 (though I also had this problem with 3.6.0).
4: Have successfully run python 3.5 for months.
5: Running under standard terminal program.
6: I have py36-readline installed.
7: Have tried uninstalling and re-installing Python.

Any thoughts on what I could have wrong?

Regards
?Ray


From cjw at ncf.ca  Wed Apr  5 14:46:51 2017
From: cjw at ncf.ca (Colin J. Williams)
Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2017 14:46:51 -0400
Subject: Problem installing 3.6.1 AMD64
Message-ID: <6819236c-82e9-841f-23e3-85e4b413a133@ncf.ca>

   Successful install reported, but:

     Microsoft Windows [Version 10.0.14393]
     (c) 2016 Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved.

     C:\Users\CJW>cd\python
     The system cannot find the path specified.

     C:\Users\CJW>cd\

     C:\>path
     PATH=C:\Program Files\Python35\Scripts\;C:\Program
     Files\Python35\;C:\ProgramData\Oracle\Java\javapath;C:\WINDOWS\system
     32;C:\WINDOWS;C:\WINDOWS\System32\Wbem;C:\WINDOWS\System32\WindowsPowerShell\v1.0\;C:\Program
     Files (x86)\ATI Technologi
     es\ATI.ACE\Core-Static;C:\Program Files
     (x86)\AMD\ATI.ACE\Core-Static;C:\WINDOWS\system32\config\systemprofile\.dnx\bin;
     C:\Program Files\Microsoft DNX\Dnvm\;C:\Program Files\Microsoft SQL
     Server\130\Tools\Binn\;C:\Program Files\TortoiseHg\;
     C:\Program Files\Microsoft\Web Platform Installer\;C:\Program Files
     (x86)\Skype\Phone\;C:\Users\CJW\AppData\Local\Progra
     ms\Python\Python35\Scripts\;C:\Users\CJW\AppData\Local\Programs\Python\Python35\;C:\Python35\Lib\site-packages\PyQt5;C:\
     Windows\system32;C:\Windows;C:\Windows\System32\Wbem;C:\Windows\System32\WindowsPowerShell\v1.0\;C:\Program
     Files (x86)\
     ATI Technologies\ATI.ACE\Core-Static;C:\Program Files
     (x86)\Skype\Phone\;C:\Users\CJW\AppData\Local\Programs\Git\cmd;C:\
     Users\CJW\AppData\Local\Microsoft\WindowsApps;

     C:\>

   Python35 has been deleted, but it remains in the PATH.

   I would welcome advice.

   Colin W.


From python at example.invalid  Wed Apr  5 15:40:26 2017
From: python at example.invalid (Python)
Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2017 21:40:26 +0200
Subject: Python 3.6 printing crashing on OS X 10.12.4
References: <CAG5tnzrh00x4HBD6VXySSbBxGBKs3EF1MwjG_CX8mD1pg6f9Vw@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.160.1491416129.2961.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <oc3h78$1ikj$2@gioia.aioe.org>

Le 05/04/2017 ? 20:14, Ray Cote a ?crit :
> Hello:
>
> Python 3.6 crashing when trying to print from the environment.
>
> $ python
> Python 3.6.1 (default, Mar 22 2017, 15:53:21)
> [GCC 4.2.1 Compatible Apple LLVM 8.0.0 (clang-800.0.42.1)] on darwin
> Type "help", "copyright", "credits" or "license" for more information.
>>>> print("hello")
>
> Python(53390,0x7fffdd9e63c0) malloc: *** error for object 0x10dde4110:
> pointer being freed was not allocated
> *** set a breakpoint in malloc_error_break to debug
> Abort trap: 6
>
>
> Pastebin link to OS X crash report if that?s helpful:
> https://pastebin.com/t1j3nz5L
>
>
> 1: Python installed via ports.
> 2: OS X 10.12.4.
> 3: Python 3.6.1 (though I also had this problem with 3.6.0).
> 4: Have successfully run python 3.5 for months.
> 5: Running under standard terminal program.
> 6: I have py36-readline installed.
> 7: Have tried uninstalling and re-installing Python.
>
> Any thoughts on what I could have wrong?
>
> Regards
> ?Ray
>

Mac OS X 10.12.3, Python 3 installed by brew

mac:~$ uname -r
16.4.0
mac:~$ python3
Python 3.6.0 (default, Mar  4 2017, 12:32:34)
[GCC 4.2.1 Compatible Apple LLVM 8.0.0 (clang-800.0.42.1)] on darwin
Type "help", "copyright", "credits" or "license" for more information.
 >>> print("hello")
hello



From davidgshi at yahoo.co.uk  Wed Apr  5 15:41:24 2017
From: davidgshi at yahoo.co.uk (David Shi)
Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2017 19:41:24 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: How to capture a CSV file and read it into a Pandas Dataframe?
In-Reply-To: <CANc-5UwLppYhzJ_Z0-HvmmYTSqQf-aa+ap2mZuK_uvLX85Oz9g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1483290626.909143.1491406255368.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
 <1483290626.909143.1491406255368@mail.yahoo.com>
 <CANc-5UwLppYhzJ_Z0-HvmmYTSqQf-aa+ap2mZuK_uvLX85Oz9g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <226668742.78318.1491421284738@mail.yahoo.com>

Hi, Skip,
This is something very different.
New thinking and methods are needed.
Try to click on the following link
European Commission : CORDIS : Search : Results page


| 
| 
| 
|  |  |

 |

 |
| 
|  | 
European Commission : CORDIS : Search : Results page
European Commission |  |

 |

 |



Is there a way to capture the file?
Regards.
David
 

    On Wednesday, 5 April 2017, 17:19, Skip Montanaro <skip.montanaro at gmail.com> wrote:
 

 I'm not positive, but try passing response to read_csv() instead of reading the bytes yourself.
Skip
On Apr 5, 2017 10:38 AM, "David Shi via Python-list" <python-list at python.org> wrote:



I tried the following codes:
import urllib2response = urllib2.urlopen('http:// cordis.europa.eu/search/ result_en?q=uk&format=csv') myCSV = response.read()
myFile = pd.read_csv(myCSV)

but, it did not work well.
Can any one help?
Regards.
David
--
https://mail.python.org/ mailman/listinfo/python-list



   

From unihno at gmail.com  Wed Apr  5 15:48:54 2017
From: unihno at gmail.com (unihno at gmail.com)
Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2017 12:48:54 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Using TKinter to show popular tweets from twitter API (Tweepy)
Message-ID: <8fec126c-dc79-45af-9d90-b5147b7fcf34@googlegroups.com>

hello 
I'm building a python app where it should show the popular tweets in boxex in line with each other using TKinter. The problem is that the labels of the tweets are showing at the bottom of each other and i want them to be in boxes like this:

---- ---- ---- ---- 
|  | |  | |  | |  |
---- ---- ---- ---- 
---- ---- ---- ---- 
|  | |  | |  | |  |
---- ---- ---- ---- 
---- ---- ---- ---- 
|  | |  | |  | |  |
---- ---- ---- ---- 

this is my code:

from Tkinter import *
import tweepy
from local import *
import Tkinter as tk

auth = tweepy.OAuthHandler(CONSUMER_KEY, CONSUMER_SECRET)
auth.set_access_token(OAUTH_TOKEN, OAUTH_TOKEN_SECRET)
auth = tweepy.OAuthHandler(CONSUMER_KEY, CONSUMER_SECRET)
auth.set_access_token(OAUTH_TOKEN, OAUTH_TOKEN_SECRET)
api = tweepy.API(auth)
sa_ID = 23424938
large_text_size = 12
text_size = 20

#create obj in the root page (main windows)
root= Tk()
root.title("The news Portal")
root.configure(background='black')
trends1 = api.trends_place(id=sa_ID)
data = trends1[0]
# grab the trends
trends = []
trends=data['trends']
for trend in trends:
    if trend['name'].startswith('#'):
        for status in tweepy.Cursor(api.search, q=trend['name'], result_type='popular').items(1):
            f = tk.Frame(root, background='black', borderwidth=2, relief="groove").pack()
            Label(text=('@' + status.user.screen_name, "tweeted: ",status.text)).pack()

root.mainloop()



please help.


From dan at tombstonezero.net  Wed Apr  5 16:16:25 2017
From: dan at tombstonezero.net (Dan Sommers)
Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2017 20:16:25 -0000 (UTC)
Subject: Quick questions about globals and database connections
References: <oc308v$s18$2@dont-email.me> <oc32kp$4pd$1@dont-email.me>
 <oc3edp$gfl$1@dont-email.me>
Message-ID: <oc3jap$s9r$1@dont-email.me>

On Wed, 05 Apr 2017 14:56:12 -0400, DFS wrote:

> I split the database connection code and settings into a module, so
> the connection and setting values are available to other code modules
> I have.

Good work.

> dbset.py
> -------------------------------------------------
> import sqlite3, psycopg2, cx_Oracle
> 
> def openconnection(dbtype):
>    if dbtype == "sqlite":
> 	dbName = "DB.sqlite"
> 	conn   = sqlite3.connect(dbName)
> 	conn.text_factory = str
> 	ps     = '?'   #query parameter symbol
> 
>    if dbtype == "postgres":
> 	dbName = "DB on Postgres"
> 	connectstring = ""         \
> 	" host     = 'localhost' " \
> 	" dbname   = 'dbname' "    \
> 	" user     = 'USR' "       \
> 	" password = 'PW' "
> 	conn = psycopg2.connect(connectstring)
> 	ps     = '%s'   #query parameter symbol
> 
>    if dbtype == "oracle":
>         'settings

Consider adding some sort of error checking.  One way would be to use
elif throughout and an else clause at the end to catch the errors,
something like this:

  if dbtype == '"x":
    dbName = ...
  elif dbtype == "y":
    dbName = ...
  :
  :
  :
  else:
    raise ValueError("unknown database type: %s" % dbtype)

>    db = conn.cursor()
>    return [conn,db,dbName,ps]

These values could be encapsulated into a class, but a list or a tuple
works.  A small step might be a named tuple (one of the batteries
included with Python).

Clunky is in the eye of the beholder.  That appears to be clear,
effective, and easily extensible if you ever add another database
server.  And never underestimate code that works.  Ever.

> In other modules, add:
> ----------------------------------------------------
> import dbset
> 
> dbconnect = dbset.openconnection(dbtype)
> conn   = dbconnect[0]
> db     = dbconnect[1]
> dbName = dbconnect[2]
> ps     = dbconnect[3]
> 
> or shorter version:
> 
> c = dbset.openconnection(dbtype)
> conn,db,dbName,ps = c[0],c[1],c[2],c[3]
> ----------------------------------------------------

Or even shorter version:

  conn,db,dbName,ps = dbset.openconnection(dbtype)

Python will unpack that list for you.

> With that in place, I can do stuff like:
> 
> print "updating " + dbName
> db.execute("DML code")
> conn.commit()
> conn.close()
> db.close()

Yep.  :-)

And if you find yourself repeating that sequence of statements over and
over, then wrap them into a function:

  def execute_database_command(dbName, conn, db, dml_statement):
    print "updating " + dbName
    db.execute(dml_statement)
    conn.commit()
    conn.execute()
    db.close()

and then the rest of your code is just:

  execute_database_command(db, conn, "DML code")


From best_lay at yahoo.com  Wed Apr  5 17:10:37 2017
From: best_lay at yahoo.com (Wildman)
Date: Wed, 05 Apr 2017 16:10:37 -0500
Subject: Request Help With pkexec
References: <iMKdndqEbtApP3_FnZ2dnUU7-TfNnZ2d@giganews.com>
Message-ID: <Xv6dnVPjE6PQwHjFnZ2dnUU7-dmdnZ2d@giganews.com>

On Mon, 03 Apr 2017 14:29:56 -0500, Wildman wrote:

> Python 3.4.2
> Tkinter 8.6
> GCC 4.9.1 on Linux
> 
> I am working on a gui program using Tkinter. The program will
> have a feature to restart as root.  I am testing different gui
> front-ends from a terminal to raise privileges and I want to
> be able to use as many as possible for obvious reasons.  Gksu,
> kdesudo and su-to-root all work perfectly.  However, I have a
> problem with pkexec.  Here is the command I am using from a
> terminal:
> 
> $ pkexec python3 /home/user/Python/linfo-tk/linfo-tk.py
> 
> I get this error:
> 
> Traceback (most recent call last):
>   File "/home/user/Python/linfo-tk/linfo-tk.py", line 455, in <module>
>     root = tk.Tk()
>   File "/usr/lib/python3.4/tkinter/__init__.py", line 1854, in __init__
>     self.tk = _tkinter.create(screenName, baseName, className, interactive, wantobjects, useTk, sync, use)
> _tkinter.TclError: no display name and no $DISPLAY environment variable

I am posting this follow-up for any Linux developer that might
be working on a gui program that requires root permissions.
My research revealed that programs like gksu are not going to
be supported long term.  Some distros have already dropped
gksu in favor of pkexec.

Pkexec is part of the PolicyKit package, policykit-1.  By
default it will not work with gui (X11) programs but that
behavior can be changed by using a .policy file placed in
/usr/share/polkit-1/actions/.  Once I created such a file,
pkexec worked perfectly with my program.  So my problem
was not Python related.

Below is the actual .policy file I am using.  It could be
edited to work with any program.  Lots of info on the
web about pkexec and the HTML .policy file.  Just search
on something like "run program with pkexec".  The name
of the file is com.ubuntu.pkexec.linfo-tk.policy.  Here
is the contents:


<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?>
<!DOCTYPE policyconfig PUBLIC
 "-//freedesktop//DTD PolicyKit Policy Configuration 1.0//EN"
 "http://www.freedesktop.org/standards/PolicyKit/1/policyconfig.dtd">

<policyconfig>

  <vendor>Wildman Productions</vendor>
  <action id="org.freedesktop.policykit.pkexec.linfo-tk.py">
    <message>Authentication is required to run Linfo-tk as root</message>
    <defaults>
      <allow_any>auth_admin</allow_any>
      <allow_inactive>auth_admin</allow_inactive>
      <allow_active>auth_admin</allow_active>
    </defaults>
    <annotate key="org.freedesktop.policykit.exec.path">/opt/linfo-tk/linfo-tk.py</annotate>
    <annotate key="org.freedesktop.policykit.exec.allow_gui">TRUE</annotate>
  </action>

</policyconfig>


-- 
<Wildman> GNU/Linux user #557453
The cow died so I don't need your bull!


From skip.montanaro at gmail.com  Wed Apr  5 17:18:57 2017
From: skip.montanaro at gmail.com (Skip Montanaro)
Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2017 16:18:57 -0500
Subject: How to capture a CSV file and read it into a Pandas Dataframe?
In-Reply-To: <226668742.78318.1491421284738@mail.yahoo.com>
References: <1483290626.909143.1491406255368.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
 <1483290626.909143.1491406255368@mail.yahoo.com>
 <CANc-5UwLppYhzJ_Z0-HvmmYTSqQf-aa+ap2mZuK_uvLX85Oz9g@mail.gmail.com>
 <226668742.78318.1491421284738@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <CANc-5UzDLLJcHWKJM-W8edi325b-K8JeayEgb0U=pRuS-E46OQ@mail.gmail.com>

David> This is something very different.

David> New thinking and methods are needed.

David> Try to click on the following link

David> European Commission : CORDIS : Search : Results page
<http://cordis.europa.eu/search/result_en?q=uk&format=csv>

Hopefully not too very different. :-)

Looks to me like UTF-32 or UTF-16 encoding, or one of those encodings which
needs a BOM. I was able to read it using Python's csv module (this in
Python 3):

>>> f = open("cordis-search-results.csv")
>>> rdr = csv.DictReader(f, delimiter=';')
>>> for row in rdr:
...   print(row["Title"])
...
Incremental Nonlinear flight Control supplemented with Envelope ProtecTION
techniques
AdvancEd aicRaft-noIse-AlLeviation devIceS using meTamaterials
Imaging Biomarkers (IBs) for Safer Drugs: Validation of Translational
Imaging Methods in Drug Safety Assessment (IB4SD-TRISTAN)
Big Data for Better Outcomes, Policy Innovation and Healthcare System
Transformation (DO->IT)
Translational quantitative systems toxicology to improve the understanding
of the safety of medicines
Real world Outcomes across the AD spectrum for better care: Multi-modal
data Access Platform
Models Of Patient Engagement for Alzheimer?s Disease
INtestinal Tissue ENgineering Solution
Small vessel diseases in a mechanistic perspective: Targets for
InterventionAffected pathways and mechanistic exploitation for prevention
of stroke and dementia
How does dopamine link QMP with reproductive repression to mediate colony
harmony and productivity in the honeybee?


Note that I had to specify the delimiter as a semicolon. That also works
with pandas.read_csv:

>>> df = pd.read_csv("cordis-search-results.csv", sep=";")
>>> print(df["Title"])
0    Incremental Nonlinear flight Control supplemen...
1    AdvancEd aicRaft-noIse-AlLeviation devIceS usi...
2    Imaging Biomarkers (IBs) for Safer Drugs: Vali...
3    Big Data for Better Outcomes, Policy Innovatio...
4    Translational quantitative systems toxicology ...
5    Real world Outcomes across the AD spectrum for...
6    Models Of Patient Engagement for Alzheimer?s D...
7               INtestinal Tissue ENgineering Solution
8    Small vessel diseases in a mechanistic perspec...
9    How does dopamine link QMP with reproductive r...
Name: Title, dtype: object


Skip


From tjreedy at udel.edu  Wed Apr  5 17:31:31 2017
From: tjreedy at udel.edu (Terry Reedy)
Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2017 17:31:31 -0400
Subject: Using TKinter to show popular tweets from twitter API (Tweepy)
In-Reply-To: <8fec126c-dc79-45af-9d90-b5147b7fcf34@googlegroups.com>
References: <8fec126c-dc79-45af-9d90-b5147b7fcf34@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <oc3nnf$r43$1@blaine.gmane.org>

On 4/5/2017 3:48 PM, unihno at gmail.com wrote:

> I'm building a python app where it should show the popular tweets
 > in boxes in line with each other using TKinter.

By 'boxes' do you mean a visible border for Label widgets?  If so, you 
have to configure one.  You don't below.

 > The problem is that the labels of the tweets are showing at
 > the bottom of each other

I don't understand this, and cannot run your code to see what it does.

> and i want them to be in boxes like this:

snip

> this is my code:
>
> from Tkinter import *
> import tweepy
> from local import *
> import Tkinter as tk

Use just 1 of the 2 tkinter imports.

> auth = tweepy.OAuthHandler(CONSUMER_KEY, CONSUMER_SECRET)
> auth.set_access_token(OAUTH_TOKEN, OAUTH_TOKEN_SECRET)
> auth = tweepy.OAuthHandler(CONSUMER_KEY, CONSUMER_SECRET)
> auth.set_access_token(OAUTH_TOKEN, OAUTH_TOKEN_SECRET)
> api = tweepy.API(auth)

For initial development of the UI, and especially when asking for help, 
use static data included within the file.  In this case, a short list of 
'status' items with the required attributes.  Read 
https://stackoverflow.com/help/mcve

>         for status in tweepy.Cursor(api.search, q=trend['name'], result_type='popular').items(1):

     for status in myshortlist:

>             f = tk.Frame(root, background='black', borderwidth=2, relief="groove").pack()

Commen error.
.pack(), etc is a status mutation method and returns None.
You did not get an exception only because f is not used.

>             Label(text=('@' + status.user.screen_name, "tweeted: ",status.text)).pack()

You omitted the master, so it defaults to the more or less undocumented 
default root.  It this context, this should be the explicit 'root' 
defined previously.  I recommend being explicit, always.

I did not know that the 'string' passed as 'text' could be a tuple of 
strings.  I don't know if it is documented anywhere.  My simple 
experiment suggested that the result is ' '.join(strings), as with print 
calls.  But I don't know it that is always true.

Multiple Labels should be packed vertically, with each centered.  If you 
want lined up to the left, you will have to say so.  As I said, I don't 
know what you saw.

 > Please help

Please make it easier by posting a better question, including an mcve.

-- 
Terry Jan Reedy



From greg.ewing at canterbury.ac.nz  Wed Apr  5 18:55:28 2017
From: greg.ewing at canterbury.ac.nz (Gregory Ewing)
Date: Thu, 06 Apr 2017 10:55:28 +1200
Subject: Data exchange between python script and bash script
In-Reply-To: <mailman.152.1491395867.2961.python-list@python.org>
References: <50298d86-e688-4162-b96f-632e5a98c141@googlegroups.com>
 <vg3lgrfm3ng.fsf@coffee.modeemi.fi>
 <mailman.152.1491395867.2961.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <eklav2F69m6U1@mid.individual.net>

Anssi Saari wrote:
> Bash manual explicitly states command substition (the $(...) structure)
> replaces the command with the standard *output* of the command.

Another problem is your use of '&' here:

    sensor_data=$(python execute_sensor_process.py) &

The '&' causes the whole command, including the variable
assignment, to be executed in a subshell. So the variable
is only bound in the subshell process and won't be seen
from the main shell process.

Running the command in the background here is pointless,
since if the shell script needs the variable value for
subsequent processing it will have to wait for the
command to finish. So just get rid of the '&'.

-- 
Greg


From greg.ewing at canterbury.ac.nz  Wed Apr  5 18:59:03 2017
From: greg.ewing at canterbury.ac.nz (Gregory Ewing)
Date: Thu, 06 Apr 2017 10:59:03 +1200
Subject: "pandas" pronunciation
In-Reply-To: <mailman.155.1491403794.2961.python-list@python.org>
References: <fe186d14-11fb-45b3-8acf-ba65645bb5a8@googlegroups.com>
 <oc305h$l3q$2@blaine.gmane.org>
 <mailman.155.1491403794.2961.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <eklb5pF6ar1U1@mid.individual.net>

Neil Cerutti wrote:
> On 2017-04-03, Jay Braun <lyngwyst at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
>>I hear people say it like the plural of "panda", and others as
>>"panduss".  Is there a correct way?
> 
> I think it is pronounced like the regular word. The second a is
> schwa in both the singular and plural.

I think the OP is referring to the distinction between
"pandas" with an unvoiced "s", and "pandaz", as in the
plural of "panda".

-- 
Greg


From eryksun at gmail.com  Wed Apr  5 19:55:24 2017
From: eryksun at gmail.com (eryk sun)
Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2017 23:55:24 +0000
Subject: Problem installing 3.6.1 AMD64
In-Reply-To: <6819236c-82e9-841f-23e3-85e4b413a133@ncf.ca>
References: <6819236c-82e9-841f-23e3-85e4b413a133@ncf.ca>
Message-ID: <CACL+1asjrg+54689vw75SuxnwT0PecWJ7+Nv+87ukpOgtpJFEA@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Apr 5, 2017 at 6:46 PM, Colin J. Williams <cjw at ncf.ca> wrote:
>    Successful install reported, but:
>
>      Microsoft Windows [Version 10.0.14393]
>      (c) 2016 Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved.

You're using Windows 10.

>      C:\Users\CJW>cd\python
>      The system cannot find the path specified.
>
>      C:\Users\CJW>cd\

What is this supposed to be doing?

>      C:\>path
>      PATH=C:\Program Files\Python35\Scripts\;C:\Program
>      Files\Python35\;C:\ProgramData\Oracle\Java\javapath;C:\WINDOWS\system
>      32;C:\WINDOWS;C:\WINDOWS\System32\Wbem;C:\WINDOWS\System32\WindowsPowerShell\v1.0\;C:\Program
>      Files (x86)\ATI Technologi
>      es\ATI.ACE\Core-Static;C:\Program Files
>      (x86)\AMD\ATI.ACE\Core-Static;C:\WINDOWS\system32\config\systemprofile\.dnx\bin;
>      C:\Program Files\Microsoft DNX\Dnvm\;C:\Program Files\Microsoft SQL
>      Server\130\Tools\Binn\;C:\Program Files\TortoiseHg\;
>      C:\Program Files\Microsoft\Web Platform Installer\;C:\Program Files
>      (x86)\Skype\Phone\;C:\Users\CJW\AppData\Local\Progra
>      ms\Python\Python35\Scripts\;C:\Users\CJW\AppData\Local\Programs\Python\Python35\;C:\Python35\Lib\site-packages\PyQt5;C:\
>      Windows\system32;C:\Windows;C:\Windows\System32\Wbem;C:\Windows\System32\WindowsPowerShell\v1.0\;C:\Program
>      Files (x86)\
>      ATI Technologies\ATI.ACE\Core-Static;C:\Program Files
>      (x86)\Skype\Phone\;C:\Users\CJW\AppData\Local\Programs\Git\cmd;C:\
>      Users\CJW\AppData\Local\Microsoft\WindowsApps;
>
>      C:\>
>
>    Python35 has been deleted, but it remains in the PATH.
>
>    I would welcome advice.

The environment variable editor in Windows 10 has made editing PATH
about as easy as possible. Just manually remove (select and click on
"Delete") whichever paths are no longer valid. Apparently one is
per-machine in "C:\Program Files\Python35", which will likely be in
the system PATH, and the other is per-user in
"C:\Users\CJW\AppData\Local\Programs\Python\Python35", which will
likely be in the user PATH.


From python at mrabarnett.plus.com  Wed Apr  5 20:12:01 2017
From: python at mrabarnett.plus.com (MRAB)
Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2017 01:12:01 +0100
Subject: Problem installing 3.6.1 AMD64
In-Reply-To: <6819236c-82e9-841f-23e3-85e4b413a133@ncf.ca>
References: <6819236c-82e9-841f-23e3-85e4b413a133@ncf.ca>
Message-ID: <9aa7a8bd-dc2d-9ab6-7484-56fab1f34018@mrabarnett.plus.com>

On 2017-04-05 19:46, Colin J. Williams wrote:
>     Successful install reported, but:
> 
>       Microsoft Windows [Version 10.0.14393]
>       (c) 2016 Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved.
> 
>       C:\Users\CJW>cd\python
>       The system cannot find the path specified.
> 
>       C:\Users\CJW>cd\
> 
>       C:\>path
>       PATH=C:\Program Files\Python35\Scripts\;C:\Program
>       Files\Python35\;C:\ProgramData\Oracle\Java\javapath;C:\WINDOWS\system
>       32;C:\WINDOWS;C:\WINDOWS\System32\Wbem;C:\WINDOWS\System32\WindowsPowerShell\v1.0\;C:\Program
>       Files (x86)\ATI Technologi
>       es\ATI.ACE\Core-Static;C:\Program Files
>       (x86)\AMD\ATI.ACE\Core-Static;C:\WINDOWS\system32\config\systemprofile\.dnx\bin;
>       C:\Program Files\Microsoft DNX\Dnvm\;C:\Program Files\Microsoft SQL
>       Server\130\Tools\Binn\;C:\Program Files\TortoiseHg\;
>       C:\Program Files\Microsoft\Web Platform Installer\;C:\Program Files
>       (x86)\Skype\Phone\;C:\Users\CJW\AppData\Local\Progra
>       ms\Python\Python35\Scripts\;C:\Users\CJW\AppData\Local\Programs\Python\Python35\;C:\Python35\Lib\site-packages\PyQt5;C:\
>       Windows\system32;C:\Windows;C:\Windows\System32\Wbem;C:\Windows\System32\WindowsPowerShell\v1.0\;C:\Program
>       Files (x86)\
>       ATI Technologies\ATI.ACE\Core-Static;C:\Program Files
>       (x86)\Skype\Phone\;C:\Users\CJW\AppData\Local\Programs\Git\cmd;C:\
>       Users\CJW\AppData\Local\Microsoft\WindowsApps;
> 
>       C:\>
> 
>     Python35 has been deleted, but it remains in the PATH.
> 
>     I would welcome advice.
> 
It's easy enough to remove those references.

Try to start Python 3.5 to check that it's really gone:

C:\> py -3.5

It should complain if it's no longer there.

Start Python 3.6:

C:\> py -3.6

Have a look at the references to Python 3.5 in the PATH environment 
variable to double-check:

 >>> import os
 >>> [p for p in os.environ['PATH'].split(';') if 'Python35' in p]

Remove those references from the PATH environment variable:

 >>> os.environ['PATH'] = ';'.join(p for p in 
os.environ['PATH'].split(';') if 'Python35' not in p)

Job done!


From eryksun at gmail.com  Wed Apr  5 20:38:05 2017
From: eryksun at gmail.com (eryk sun)
Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2017 00:38:05 +0000
Subject: Problem installing 3.6.1 AMD64
In-Reply-To: <9aa7a8bd-dc2d-9ab6-7484-56fab1f34018@mrabarnett.plus.com>
References: <6819236c-82e9-841f-23e3-85e4b413a133@ncf.ca>
 <9aa7a8bd-dc2d-9ab6-7484-56fab1f34018@mrabarnett.plus.com>
Message-ID: <CACL+1atAUWma0sRRTMwrSmX2hmoN67xbPP+94bcLVdNSY9xVxw@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Apr 6, 2017 at 12:12 AM, MRAB <python at mrabarnett.plus.com> wrote:
>>>> import os
>>>> [p for p in os.environ['PATH'].split(';') if 'Python35' in p]
>
> Remove those references from the PATH environment variable:
>
>>>> os.environ['PATH'] = ';'.join(p for p in os.environ['PATH'].split(';')
>>>> if 'Python35' not in p)
>
> Job done!

Changing an environment variable in a process applies only to the
process and its descendants. It doesn't change the persistent value
that, on Windows, is stored in the registry. It's best to use the GUI
shell's environment-variable editor for this, for multiple reasons.


From dan at tombstonezero.net  Wed Apr  5 22:52:14 2017
From: dan at tombstonezero.net (Dan Sommers)
Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2017 02:52:14 -0000 (UTC)
Subject: Quick questions about globals and database connections
References: <oc308v$s18$2@dont-email.me> <oc32kp$4pd$1@dont-email.me>
 <oc3edp$gfl$1@dont-email.me> <oc3jap$s9r$1@dont-email.me>
 <oc4793$oou$3@dont-email.me>
Message-ID: <oc4agu$bpd$1@dont-email.me>

On Wed, 05 Apr 2017 22:00:46 -0400, DFS wrote:

> I have a simple hard-coded check in place before even trying to connect:
> 
> if dbtype not in ('sqlite postgres'):
>    print "db type must be sqlite or postgres"
>    exit()

That's not doing what you think it is.

Hint:  What is ('sqlite postgres')?

> Good comments, Lt. Dan.  Thanks.

No problem.


From scooter800m at gmail.com  Wed Apr  5 23:25:48 2017
From: scooter800m at gmail.com (scooter800m)
Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2017 21:25:48 -0600
Subject: fresh install setup error
Message-ID: <CAK00m3NeRRxeDrtmX3S7N-bmTKccaGWuH3s0RVdF7YhkUvq+QA@mail.gmail.com>

hi i just installed python 3.6.1 32-bit on my windows 7 home premium
64-bit. and i get a file missing error. i reinstalled and used the
repairing thing and still no working python 3.6.1.

here is the error message that i get:


From piet-l at pietvanoostrum.com  Thu Apr  6 08:25:09 2017
From: piet-l at pietvanoostrum.com (Piet van Oostrum)
Date: Thu, 06 Apr 2017 14:25:09 +0200
Subject: Temporary variables in list comprehensions
References: <58730938$0$1597$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
Message-ID: <lxbms93eqi.fsf@cochabamba.vanoostrum.org>

Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python at pearwood.info> writes:

> Suppose you have an expensive calculation that gets used two or more times in a 
> loop. The obvious way to avoid calculating it twice in an ordinary loop is with 
> a temporary variable:
>
> result = []
> for x in data:
>     tmp = expensive_calculation(x)
>     result.append((tmp, tmp+1))
>
>
> But what if you are using a list comprehension? Alas, list comps don't let you 
> have temporary variables, so you have to write this:
>
>
> [(expensive_calculation(x), expensive_calculation(x) + 1) for x in data]
>
>
> Or do you? ... no, you don't!
>
>
> [(tmp, tmp + 1) for x in data for tmp in [expensive_calculation(x)]]
>
>
> I can't decide whether that's an awesome trick or a horrible hack...

It is a poor man's 'let'. It would be nice if python had a real 'let'
construction. Or for example:

[(tmp, tmp + 1) for x in data with tmp = expensive_calculation(x)]

Alas!
-- 
Piet van Oostrum <piet-l at pietvanoostrum.com>
WWW: http://pietvanoostrum.com/
PGP key: [8DAE142BE17999C4]


From aldersilva676 at gmail.com  Thu Apr  6 08:43:37 2017
From: aldersilva676 at gmail.com (aldersilva676 at gmail.com)
Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2017 05:43:37 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: PYTHON
Message-ID: <92da1b3a-0154-4d8c-8015-588e851c66dd@googlegroups.com>

Hello, how can I start programming?


From lists at mostrom.pp.se  Thu Apr  6 08:47:56 2017
From: lists at mostrom.pp.se (Jan Erik =?utf-8?q?Mostr=C3=B6m?=)
Date: Thu, 06 Apr 2017 14:47:56 +0200
Subject: PYTHON
In-Reply-To: <92da1b3a-0154-4d8c-8015-588e851c66dd@googlegroups.com>
References: <92da1b3a-0154-4d8c-8015-588e851c66dd@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <CF9767B9-C80D-4CFA-B840-C6D79B6B25E5@mostrom.pp.se>

On 6 Apr 2017, at 14:43, aldersilva676 at gmail.com wrote:

> Hello, how can I start programming?

Let me google that for you => http://www.learnpython.org



From vincent.vande.vyvre at telenet.be  Thu Apr  6 08:56:41 2017
From: vincent.vande.vyvre at telenet.be (Vincent Vande Vyvre)
Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2017 14:56:41 +0200
Subject: Temporary variables in list comprehensions
In-Reply-To: <lxbms93eqi.fsf@cochabamba.vanoostrum.org>
References: <58730938$0$1597$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <lxbms93eqi.fsf@cochabamba.vanoostrum.org>
Message-ID: <32748803-a19e-dc76-ca4c-77f31916f05d@telenet.be>

Le 06/04/17 ? 14:25, Piet van Oostrum a ?crit :
> Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python at pearwood.info> writes:
>
>> Suppose you have an expensive calculation that gets used two or more times in a
>> loop. The obvious way to avoid calculating it twice in an ordinary loop is with
>> a temporary variable:
>>
>> result = []
>> for x in data:
>>      tmp = expensive_calculation(x)
>>      result.append((tmp, tmp+1))
>>
>>
>> But what if you are using a list comprehension? Alas, list comps don't let you
>> have temporary variables, so you have to write this:
>>
>>
>> [(expensive_calculation(x), expensive_calculation(x) + 1) for x in data]
>>
>>
>> Or do you? ... no, you don't!
>>
>>
>> [(tmp, tmp + 1) for x in data for tmp in [expensive_calculation(x)]]
>>
>>
>> I can't decide whether that's an awesome trick or a horrible hack...
> It is a poor man's 'let'. It would be nice if python had a real 'let'
> construction. Or for example:
>
> [(tmp, tmp + 1) for x in data with tmp = expensive_calculation(x)]
>
> Alas!

With two passes

e = [expensive_calculation(x) for x in data]
final = [(x, y+1) for x, y in zip(e, e)]

Vincent




From cjw at ncf.ca  Thu Apr  6 10:13:00 2017
From: cjw at ncf.ca (Colin J. Williams)
Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2017 10:13:00 -0400
Subject: Problem installing 3.6.1 AMD64
In-Reply-To: <CACL+1asjrg+54689vw75SuxnwT0PecWJ7+Nv+87ukpOgtpJFEA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <6819236c-82e9-841f-23e3-85e4b413a133@ncf.ca>
 <CACL+1asjrg+54689vw75SuxnwT0PecWJ7+Nv+87ukpOgtpJFEA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <03ab17a9-e35d-3107-f43b-fcf157067f47@ncf.ca>

   Eryk,

   Many thanks.  I wasn't aware of the Path Editor,

   Colin W.

   On 2017-04-05 7:55 PM, eryk sun wrote:

 On Wed, Apr 5, 2017 at 6:46 PM, Colin J. Williams [1]<cjw at ncf.ca> wrote:

    Successful install reported, but:

      Microsoft Windows [Version 10.0.14393]
      (c) 2016 Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved.

 You're using Windows 10.


      C:\Users\CJW>cd\python
      The system cannot find the path specified.

      C:\Users\CJW>cd\

 What is this supposed to be doing?


      C:\>path
      PATH=C:\Program Files\Python35\Scripts\;C:\Program
      Files\Python35\;C:\ProgramData\Oracle\Java\javapath;C:\WINDOWS\system
      32;C:\WINDOWS;C:\WINDOWS\System32\Wbem;C:\WINDOWS\System32\WindowsPowerShell\v1.0\;C:\Program
      Files (x86)\ATI Technologi
      es\ATI.ACE\Core-Static;C:\Program Files
      (x86)\AMD\ATI.ACE\Core-Static;C:\WINDOWS\system32\config\systemprofile\.dnx\bin;
      C:\Program Files\Microsoft DNX\Dnvm\;C:\Program Files\Microsoft SQL
      Server\130\Tools\Binn\;C:\Program Files\TortoiseHg\;
      C:\Program Files\Microsoft\Web Platform Installer\;C:\Program Files
      (x86)\Skype\Phone\;C:\Users\CJW\AppData\Local\Progra
      ms\Python\Python35\Scripts\;C:\Users\CJW\AppData\Local\Programs\Python\Python35\;C:\Python35\Lib\site-packages\PyQt5;C:\
      Windows\system32;C:\Windows;C:\Windows\System32\Wbem;C:\Windows\System32\WindowsPowerShell\v1.0\;C:\Program
      Files (x86)\
      ATI Technologies\ATI.ACE\Core-Static;C:\Program Files
      (x86)\Skype\Phone\;C:\Users\CJW\AppData\Local\Programs\Git\cmd;C:\
      Users\CJW\AppData\Local\Microsoft\WindowsApps;

      C:\>

    Python35 has been deleted, but it remains in the PATH.

    I would welcome advice.

 The environment variable editor in Windows 10 has made editing PATH
 about as easy as possible. Just manually remove (select and click on
 "Delete") whichever paths are no longer valid. Apparently one is
 per-machine in "C:\Program Files\Python35", which will likely be in
 the system PATH, and the other is per-user in
 "C:\Users\CJW\AppData\Local\Programs\Python\Python35", which will
 likely be in the user PATH.

References

   Visible links
   1. mailto:cjw at ncf.ca


From jussi.piitulainen at helsinki.fi  Thu Apr  6 10:16:12 2017
From: jussi.piitulainen at helsinki.fi (Jussi Piitulainen)
Date: Thu, 06 Apr 2017 17:16:12 +0300
Subject: Temporary variables in list comprehensions
References: <58730938$0$1597$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <lxbms93eqi.fsf@cochabamba.vanoostrum.org>
 <32748803-a19e-dc76-ca4c-77f31916f05d@telenet.be>
 <mailman.176.1491483997.2961.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <lf57f2xzknn.fsf@ling.helsinki.fi>

Vincent Vande Vyvre writes:

> Le 06/04/17 ? 14:25, Piet van Oostrum a ?crit :
>> Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python at pearwood.info> writes:
>>
>>> Suppose you have an expensive calculation that gets used two or more
>>> times in a loop. The obvious way to avoid calculating it twice in an
>>> ordinary loop is with a temporary variable:
>>>
>>> result = []
>>> for x in data:
>>>      tmp = expensive_calculation(x)
>>>      result.append((tmp, tmp+1))
>>>
>>>
>>> But what if you are using a list comprehension? Alas, list comps
>>> don't let you have temporary variables, so you have to write this:
>>>
>>>
>>> [(expensive_calculation(x), expensive_calculation(x) + 1) for x in data]
>>>
>>>
>>> Or do you? ... no, you don't!
>>>
>>>
>>> [(tmp, tmp + 1) for x in data for tmp in [expensive_calculation(x)]]
>>>
>>>
>>> I can't decide whether that's an awesome trick or a horrible hack...
>> It is a poor man's 'let'. It would be nice if python had a real 'let'
>> construction. Or for example:
>>
>> [(tmp, tmp + 1) for x in data with tmp = expensive_calculation(x)]
>>
>> Alas!
>
> With two passes
>
> e = [expensive_calculation(x) for x in data]
> final = [(x, y+1) for x, y in zip(e, e)]
>
> Vincent

Imagine some crazy combinatory question - how many ways can one choose
two subsets of the ten decimal digits so that the size of the first is
the minimum of the second and the size of the second is the maximum of
the first _or_ the minima and maxima of the two are the same?

Comprehensions lend themselves readily to such explorations. It happens
that some expensively computed value is needed twice, like the minima
and maxima of the two combinations in this exercise (because this
exercise was carefully crafted to be just so, but anyway), and then it
saves time to do the computations once: let the values have names.

from itertools import combinations as choose

print(sum(1 for m in range(1,10) for n in range(1,10)
          for a in choose(range(1,10), m)
          for b in choose(range(1,10), n)
          if ((len(a) == min(b) and len(b) == max(a)) or
              (min(a) == min(b) and max(a) == max(b)))))

print(sum(1 for m in range(1,10) for n in range(1,10)
          for a in choose(range(1,10), m)
          for b in choose(range(1,10), n)
          for lena, mina, maxa in [[len(a), min(a), max(a)]]
          for lenb, minb, maxb in [[len(b), min(b), max(b)]]
          if ((lena == minb and lenb == maxa) or
              (mina == minb and maxa == maxb))))

I realized afterwards that the sizes, len(a) and len(b), already had
names, m and n, and were only used once in the condition anyway, but let
that illustrate the point: this kind of expression lends itself to
analysis and modification, which is what one wants in explorative code.

(But the "for x in [foo(u,w)]" works, so, shrug, I guess? I'd welcome a
proper let construction, but then I find that I can live without.)


From jussi.piitulainen at helsinki.fi  Thu Apr  6 10:53:15 2017
From: jussi.piitulainen at helsinki.fi (Jussi Piitulainen)
Date: Thu, 06 Apr 2017 17:53:15 +0300
Subject: Quick questions about globals and database connections
References: <oc308v$s18$2@dont-email.me> <oc32kp$4pd$1@dont-email.me>
 <oc3edp$gfl$1@dont-email.me> <oc3jap$s9r$1@dont-email.me>
 <oc4793$oou$3@dont-email.me> <oc4agu$bpd$1@dont-email.me>
 <oc5k66$ar5$4@dont-email.me>
Message-ID: <lf537dlzixw.fsf@ling.helsinki.fi>

DFS writes:

> On 4/5/2017 10:52 PM, Dan Sommers wrote:
>> On Wed, 05 Apr 2017 22:00:46 -0400, DFS wrote:
>>
>>> I have a simple hard-coded check in place before even trying to connect:
>>>
>>> if dbtype not in ('sqlite postgres'):
>>>    print "db type must be sqlite or postgres"
>>>    exit()
>>
>> That's not doing what you think it is.
>>
>> Hint:  What is ('sqlite postgres')?
>
> ?
>
> dbtype is a string, and the check works perfectly.  No typos make it
> past the guard.

"lite post" in "sqlite postgres"


From python at example.invalid  Thu Apr  6 10:54:21 2017
From: python at example.invalid (Python)
Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2017 16:54:21 +0200
Subject: Quick questions about globals and database connections
References: <oc308v$s18$2@dont-email.me> <oc32kp$4pd$1@dont-email.me>
 <oc3edp$gfl$1@dont-email.me> <oc3jap$s9r$1@dont-email.me>
 <oc4793$oou$3@dont-email.me> <oc4agu$bpd$1@dont-email.me>
 <oc5k66$ar5$4@dont-email.me>
Message-ID: <oc5kqs$r62$1@gioia.aioe.org>

Le 06/04/2017 ? 16:46, DFS a ?crit :
> On 4/5/2017 10:52 PM, Dan Sommers wrote:
>> On Wed, 05 Apr 2017 22:00:46 -0400, DFS wrote:
>>
>>> I have a simple hard-coded check in place before even trying to connect:
>>>
>>> if dbtype not in ('sqlite postgres'):
>>>    print "db type must be sqlite or postgres"
>>>    exit()
>>
>> That's not doing what you think it is.
>>
>> Hint:  What is ('sqlite postgres')?
>
> ?
>
> dbtype is a string, and the check works perfectly.  No typos make it
> past the guard.

except that it would be True for dbtype = 'lite post' or dbtype = 'stgr'





From mok-kong.shen at t-online.de  Thu Apr  6 11:22:01 2017
From: mok-kong.shen at t-online.de (Mok-Kong Shen)
Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2017 17:22:01 +0200
Subject: Correction of announcement of Version 2 of a steganographical
 software of mine
Message-ID: <oc5men$vek$2@news.albasani.net>


Due to a new convention of my Internet provider, my current home page is 
now:

http://mokkong-shen.homepage.t-online.de

M. K. Shen


From lele at metapensiero.it  Thu Apr  6 14:07:57 2017
From: lele at metapensiero.it (Lele Gaifax)
Date: Thu, 06 Apr 2017 20:07:57 +0200
Subject: Temporary variables in list comprehensions
References: <58730938$0$1597$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <lxbms93eqi.fsf@cochabamba.vanoostrum.org>
Message-ID: <877f2xmmte.fsf@nautilus>

Piet van Oostrum <piet-l at pietvanoostrum.com> writes:

> It is a poor man's 'let'. It would be nice if python had a real 'let'
> construction. Or for example:
>
> [(tmp, tmp + 1) for x in data with tmp = expensive_calculation(x)]
>
> Alas!

It would be nice indeed!

Or even

  [(tmp, tmp + 1) for x in data
   with expensive_calculation(x) as tmp
   if tmp is not None]

that fits the usual "with" syntax.

ciao, lele.
-- 
nickname: Lele Gaifax | Quando vivr? di quello che ho pensato ieri
real: Emanuele Gaifas | comincer? ad aver paura di chi mi copia.
lele at metapensiero.it  |                 -- Fortunato Depero, 1929.



From python.list at tim.thechases.com  Thu Apr  6 16:22:49 2017
From: python.list at tim.thechases.com (Tim Chase)
Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2017 15:22:49 -0500
Subject: Temporary variables in list comprehensions
In-Reply-To: <32748803-a19e-dc76-ca4c-77f31916f05d@telenet.be>
References: <58730938$0$1597$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <lxbms93eqi.fsf@cochabamba.vanoostrum.org>
 <32748803-a19e-dc76-ca4c-77f31916f05d@telenet.be>
Message-ID: <20170406152249.24cec377@bigbox.christie.dr>

On 2017-04-06 14:56, Vincent Vande Vyvre wrote:
> With two passes
> 
> e = [expensive_calculation(x) for x in data]
> final = [(x, y+1) for x, y in zip(e, e)]

Using a generator it can be done in one pass:

 final = [
   (value, tmp, tmp+1)
   for value, tmp
   in (
     (x, expensive_calculation(x))
     for x in data
     )
   ]

The above makes use of the original value as well at top level
(whether you need it for "if" filtering, or in your final tuple
result). If you don't care, you can discard it

 final = [
   (tmp, tmp+1)
   for tmp
   in (
     expensive_calculation(x)
     for x in data
     )
   ]

-tkc




From jussi.piitulainen at helsinki.fi  Thu Apr  6 23:54:29 2017
From: jussi.piitulainen at helsinki.fi (Jussi Piitulainen)
Date: Fri, 07 Apr 2017 06:54:29 +0300
Subject: Quick questions about globals and database connections
References: <oc308v$s18$2@dont-email.me> <oc32kp$4pd$1@dont-email.me>
 <oc3edp$gfl$1@dont-email.me> <oc3jap$s9r$1@dont-email.me>
 <oc4793$oou$3@dont-email.me> <oc4agu$bpd$1@dont-email.me>
 <oc5k66$ar5$4@dont-email.me> <oc5kqs$r62$1@gioia.aioe.org>
 <oc6uc3$71o$3@dont-email.me>
Message-ID: <lf5y3vcyiru.fsf@ling.helsinki.fi>

DFS <nospam at dfs.com> writes:

> On 4/6/2017 10:54 AM, Python wrote:
>> Le 06/04/2017 ? 16:46, DFS a ?crit :
>>> On 4/5/2017 10:52 PM, Dan Sommers wrote:
>>>> On Wed, 05 Apr 2017 22:00:46 -0400, DFS wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> I have a simple hard-coded check in place before even trying to
>>>>> connect:
>>>>>
>>>>> if dbtype not in ('sqlite postgres'):
>>>>>    print "db type must be sqlite or postgres"
>>>>>    exit()
>>>>
>>>> That's not doing what you think it is.
>>>>
>>>> Hint:  What is ('sqlite postgres')?
>>>
>>> ?
>>>
>>> dbtype is a string, and the check works perfectly.  No typos make it
>>> past the guard.
>>
>> except that it would be True for dbtype = 'lite post' or dbtype = 'stgr'
>
>
> Except before I even get there I have another checkpoint.
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------
> if len(sys.argv) != 4:
>   print "Enter group name, verbose setting (-s or -v), and db type"
>   exit(0)
>
> GRP = sys.argv[1]   (a few lines later I check this value against a db)	
> 	
> verbose = 'x'
> if sys.argv[2] == '-s': verbose = False
> if sys.argv[2] == '-v': verbose = True
> if verbose not in (True,False):
>   print "Enter -s (silent) or -v (verbose)"
>   exit()
> 	
> dbtype = sys.argv[3]	
> if dbtype not in ('sqlite postgres'):
>   print "db type must be sqlite or postgres"
>   exit()
> -------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> $1,000,000 virtual if you can get a bad command past those.
>
> These are good commands:
> $python progname.py comp.lang.python -v postgres
> $python progname.py comp.lang.c -s sqlite

So these are meant to be bad commands:
$python progname.py comp.lang.python -v post
$python progname.py comp.lang.c -s sql
$python progname.py comp.lang.cobol -v 'lite post'
$python progname.py comp.lang.perl -s stgr

What happens when you try them with the above code?


From davidgshi at yahoo.co.uk  Fri Apr  7 03:47:52 2017
From: davidgshi at yahoo.co.uk (David Shi)
Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2017 07:47:52 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: No subject
References: <1939941282.1106484.1491551272538.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <1939941282.1106484.1491551272538@mail.yahoo.com>



I was using IPython notebooks. ?All the sudden, it asks for password or token.
I did not set any password or token.
How do I get back to use my IPython notebooks?
Looking forward to hearing from you.
Regards.
David

From davidgshi at yahoo.co.uk  Fri Apr  7 05:08:51 2017
From: davidgshi at yahoo.co.uk (David Shi)
Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2017 09:08:51 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: A Python solution for turning a web page into Pandas DataFrame table
References: <91048751.1978472.1491556131672.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <91048751.1978472.1491556131672@mail.yahoo.com>



Is there a Python solution for turning a web page into Pandas DataFrame table?
Looking forward to hearing from you.
Regards.
David

From Jack.Jansen at cwi.nl  Fri Apr  7 05:21:38 2017
From: Jack.Jansen at cwi.nl (Jack Jansen)
Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2017 11:21:38 +0200
Subject: ANN: pyftpdlib 1.5.2 released
In-Reply-To: <CAFYqXL_3f6mL9ukNJE42jvnwJttSQN_mww2pUBzzGuK7Q3cECA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAFYqXL_3f6mL9ukNJE42jvnwJttSQN_mww2pUBzzGuK7Q3cECA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <40ADD434-240F-480F-AB64-C3ABC1096E1E@cwi.nl>

It looks as though you posted this message with the ?about? paragraph from a different library? I looked at the web site, and pyftpdlib indeed seems to be an ftp daemon, as the name suggests, not a system load package?.

Regards,
Jack

> On 06 Apr 2017, at 13:06, Giampaolo Rodola' <g.rodola at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> Hello all,
> I'm glad to announce the release of pyftpdlib 1.5.2:
> https://github.com/giampaolo/pyftpdlib
> 
> About
> =====
> 
> pyftpdlib (process and system utilities) is a cross-platform library for
> retrieving information on running processes and system utilization (CPU,
> memory, disks, network) in Python. It is useful mainly for system
> monitoring, profiling and limiting process resources and management of
> running processes. It implements many functionalities offered by command
> line tools such as: ps, top, lsof, netstat, ifconfig, who, df, kill, free,
> nice, ionice, iostat, iotop, uptime, pidof, tty, taskset, pmap. It
> currently supports Linux, Windows, OSX, Sun Solaris, FreeBSD, OpenBSD and
> NetBSD, both 32-bit and 64-bit architectures, with Python versions from 2.6
> to 3.5 (users of Python 2.4 and 2.5 may use 2.1.3 version). PyPy is also
> known to work.
> 
> What's new
> ==========
> 
> **Enhancements**
> 
> - #378: SSL security was improved by disabling SSLv2, SSLv3 and
> SSL_COMPRESSION
>  features. New TLS_FTPHandler's ssl_options class attribute was added.
> - #380: AbstractedFS.listdir() can now return also a generator (not only a
>  list).
> 
> **Bug fixes**
> 
> - #367: ThreadedFTPServer no longer hangs if close_all() is called.
> - #394: ETIMEDOUT is not treated as an alias for "connection lost".
> - #400: QUIT can raise KeyError in case the user hasn't logged in yet and
> sends
>  QUIT command.
> 
> Links
> =====
> 
> - Home page: https://github.com/giampaolo/pyftpdlib
> - Download: https://pypi.python.org/pypi/pyftpdlib
> - Documentation: http://pythonhosted.org/pyftpdlib
> - What's new: https://github.com/giampaolo/pyftpdlib/blob/master/HISTORY.rst
> 
> --
> 
> Giampaolo - http://grodola.blogspot.com
> -- 
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-announce-list
> 
>        Support the Python Software Foundation:
>        http://www.python.org/psf/donations/

--
Jack Jansen, <Jack.Jansen at cwi.nl>, http://www.cwi.nl/~jack
If I can't dance I don't want to be part of your revolution -- Emma Goldman





From steve+python at pearwood.info  Fri Apr  7 06:19:50 2017
From: steve+python at pearwood.info (Steve D'Aprano)
Date: Fri, 07 Apr 2017 20:19:50 +1000
Subject: A Python solution for turning a web page into Pandas DataFrame
 table
References: <91048751.1978472.1491556131672.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
 <91048751.1978472.1491556131672@mail.yahoo.com>
 <mailman.181.1491556259.2961.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <58e767c8$0$1589$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>

On Fri, 7 Apr 2017 07:08 pm, David Shi wrote:

> 
> 
> Is there a Python solution for turning a web page into Pandas DataFrame
> table? Looking forward to hearing from you.

What, *any* web page? Like this?

http://www.math.ubc.ca/~cass/courses/m308-03b/projects-03b/skinner/ex-dimension-sierpinski_gasket.htm



What exactly would you expect to go into the dataframe?


I think you need to be more specific. What web page, containing what sort of
data, and what do you expect to get out of it?


-- 
Steve
?Cheer up,? they said, ?things could be worse.? So I cheered up, and sure
enough, things got worse.



From robin at reportlab.com  Fri Apr  7 06:41:56 2017
From: robin at reportlab.com (Robin Becker)
Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2017 11:41:56 +0100
Subject: django float round tripping
Message-ID: <c6aefa2a-d8de-f666-9ea2-14442d6fb567@chamonix.reportlab.co.uk>

I've been having problems with django FloatFields not round tripping properly; eg

field = 0.018903438896219302

gets saved and returns as

0.0189034388962193

It turns out that this is a property of the MySQLdb python interface where in 
converter.py we have the definition

def Float2Str(o, d):
     return '%.15g' % o

if I change this to

def Float2Str(o, d):
     return repr(o)

I do seem able to get reproducibility.

Are there any downsides to making this change?
-- 
Robin Becker



From nimbiotics at gmail.com  Fri Apr  7 08:59:54 2017
From: nimbiotics at gmail.com (Mario R. Osorio)
Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2017 05:59:54 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: PYTHON
In-Reply-To: <92da1b3a-0154-4d8c-8015-588e851c66dd@googlegroups.com>
References: <92da1b3a-0154-4d8c-8015-588e851c66dd@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <7eeaaaef-1af9-4417-8c39-4631a4de4391@googlegroups.com>

On Thursday, April 6, 2017 at 8:43:48 AM UTC-4, alders... at gmail.com wrote:
> Hello, how can I start programming?

http://www.lmgtfy.com/?q=Hello%2C+how+can+I+start+programming%3F


From brandonmace460 at gmail.com  Fri Apr  7 10:57:53 2017
From: brandonmace460 at gmail.com (Brandon Mace)
Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2017 15:57:53 +0100
Subject: Issues downloading python.
Message-ID: <CAFetyr718zcT6dNBebSui9SJYE3PwkOeB=L569ATJ5qf_h_57A@mail.gmail.com>

I have downloaded python onto a DELL laptop, but it will not run. I have
tried to install it multiple times but each time it does not work so I try
again. This time it has come up with a system error and that "The program
can't start because api-ms-win-crt-runtime-[1-1-0.dlll is missing"
What can I do to make the program run?


From hendorf at europython.eu  Fri Apr  7 11:37:46 2017
From: hendorf at europython.eu (Alexander Hendorf)
Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2017 17:37:46 +0200
Subject: EuroPython 2017: Tickets are now available
Message-ID: <00946228-9220-4ED4-9E71-A45E5416DFC3@europython.eu>

You can now buy regular tickets 
for Europe?s largest Python conference.

After the early bird tickets sold out in just eight hours,
standard rate tickets are now available:

Student: EUR 130.- incl. VAT 
(only available for students and postdocs; please bring your student card)

Personal: EUR 375.- incl. VAT 
(for people enjoying Python from home)

Business: EUR 555.- excl. VAT / 677.10 incl. VAT 
(for people using Python to make a living)

Tickets can be purchased via the EuroPython website.
https://ep2017.europython.eu/en/registration/buy-tickets/

Please help us spreading the news by forwarding this mail 
or re-tweeting, thanks!
https://twitter.com/europython/status/850368483061846018


Enjoy,

EuroPython 2017 Team
http://ep2017.europython.eu/
http://www.europython-society.org/


PS: please remember to submit your proposals for the conference. 
https://ep2017.europython.eu/en/call-for-proposals/
There are only a few days left for submission. 
The deadline is (Easter) Sunday, April 16th.

From none at invalid.com  Fri Apr  7 12:29:43 2017
From: none at invalid.com (mm0fmf)
Date: Fri, 07 Apr 2017 17:29:43 +0100
Subject: Issues downloading python.
In-Reply-To: <mailman.184.1491578908.2961.python-list@python.org>
References: <CAFetyr718zcT6dNBebSui9SJYE3PwkOeB=L569ATJ5qf_h_57A@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.184.1491578908.2961.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <oc8ek4$ska$1@dont-email.me>

On 07/04/2017 15:57, Brandon Mace wrote:
> I have downloaded python onto a DELL laptop, but it will not run. I have
> tried to install it multiple times but each time it does not work so I try
> again. This time it has come up with a system error and that "The program
> can't start because api-ms-win-crt-runtime-[1-1-0.dlll is missing"
> What can I do to make the program run?
>

Install the missing file.

https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/kb/2999226


From kdaatwork at gmail.com  Fri Apr  7 16:15:00 2017
From: kdaatwork at gmail.com (Keith Anthony)
Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2017 16:15:00 -0400
Subject: Elastic Search
Message-ID: <CAN9Ve4XTYpyft9RBQiWkGcW3cZyL9kjuJQ2H013Nq0KdhCcECw@mail.gmail.com>

I need some insightful examples of elastic search, using REGEX ...
And using REST.


From toby at tobiah.org  Fri Apr  7 16:24:58 2017
From: toby at tobiah.org (Tobiah)
Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2017 13:24:58 -0700
Subject: Find out which module a class came from
Message-ID: <oc8sio$5o7$1@gioia.aioe.org>

I was viewing the python source for a program at work and
came across a class name that I knew my company had written:

	import mycmp1
	import mycmp2
	import mycmp3
	import mycmp4
	import mycmp5

	foo = FooClass()


So I knew that FooClass was defined in one of those imports, but
I thought it would be tedious to track down the location of all
of those modules (is module.__file___ the best way) and scan them
for the class definition.  Is there a better way to find the 
definition of FooClass()?


Thanks!





From rosuav at gmail.com  Fri Apr  7 16:31:09 2017
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Sat, 8 Apr 2017 06:31:09 +1000
Subject: Find out which module a class came from
In-Reply-To: <oc8sio$5o7$1@gioia.aioe.org>
References: <oc8sio$5o7$1@gioia.aioe.org>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmr=nvTo=5ezo0CqmSwPPm+2TB1iVThSJcUh6_cQ14SLtg@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Apr 8, 2017 at 6:24 AM, Tobiah <toby at tobiah.org> wrote:
> I was viewing the python source for a program at work and
> came across a class name that I knew my company had written:
>
>         import mycmp1
>         import mycmp2
>         import mycmp3
>         import mycmp4
>         import mycmp5
>
>         foo = FooClass()
>
>
> So I knew that FooClass was defined in one of those imports, but
> I thought it would be tedious to track down the location of all
> of those modules (is module.__file___ the best way) and scan them
> for the class definition.  Is there a better way to find the
> definition of FooClass()?

If they're just "import modulename", then FooClass won't be defined
unless it's been injected into the builtins or something. Are they
"from mycmp1 import *"?

Normally, you should be able to just look at FooClass.__module__ to
see where it's been created. But if your module layout is messy, that
might not be sufficient information.

ChrisA


From breamoreboy at gmail.com  Fri Apr  7 17:02:29 2017
From: breamoreboy at gmail.com (breamoreboy at gmail.com)
Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2017 14:02:29 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Elastic Search
In-Reply-To: <mailman.187.1491596197.2961.python-list@python.org>
References: <CAN9Ve4XTYpyft9RBQiWkGcW3cZyL9kjuJQ2H013Nq0KdhCcECw@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.187.1491596197.2961.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <4d9561ff-708a-4bce-aa60-f0d1183b39db@googlegroups.com>

On Friday, April 7, 2017 at 9:16:51 PM UTC+1, Keith Anthony wrote:
> I need some insightful examples of elastic search, using REGEX ...
> And using REST.

What was wrong with the hits that you got from your search engine of choice?

Kindest regards.

Mark Lawrence.


From roel at roelschroeven.net  Fri Apr  7 17:29:49 2017
From: roel at roelschroeven.net (Roel Schroeven)
Date: Fri, 07 Apr 2017 23:29:49 +0200
Subject: Temporary variables in list comprehensions
In-Reply-To: <877f2xmmte.fsf@nautilus>
References: <58730938$0$1597$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <lxbms93eqi.fsf@cochabamba.vanoostrum.org> <877f2xmmte.fsf@nautilus>
Message-ID: <oc90c7$med$1@blaine.gmane.org>

Lele Gaifax schreef op 6/04/2017 20:07:
> Piet van Oostrum <piet-l at pietvanoostrum.com> writes:
> 
>> It is a poor man's 'let'. It would be nice if python had a real 'let'
>> construction. Or for example:
>>
>> [(tmp, tmp + 1) for x in data with tmp = expensive_calculation(x)]
>>
>> Alas!
> 
> It would be nice indeed!
> 
> Or even
> 
>   [(tmp, tmp + 1) for x in data
>    with expensive_calculation(x) as tmp
>    if tmp is not None]
> 

Perhaps this:

     [(tmp, tmp + 1) for tmp in
      (expensive_calculation(x) for x in data)
      if tmp is not None]

A bit less elegant, but works right now.


-- 
Roel Schroeven



From steve+python at pearwood.info  Fri Apr  7 20:32:52 2017
From: steve+python at pearwood.info (Steve D'Aprano)
Date: Sat, 08 Apr 2017 10:32:52 +1000
Subject: Elastic Search
References: <CAN9Ve4XTYpyft9RBQiWkGcW3cZyL9kjuJQ2H013Nq0KdhCcECw@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.187.1491596197.2961.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <58e82fb6$0$22140$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>

On Sat, 8 Apr 2017 06:15 am, Keith Anthony wrote:

> I need some insightful examples of elastic search, using REGEX ...
> And using REST.

What's elastic search?

And what does this have to do with Python?

Can you be more specific rather than assume we know what you want? What have
you tried, what don't you understand, what have you searched for, etc.

We're all volunteers here, we aren't paid to decipher people's mysterious
questions. If deciphering the question is too hard, you won't find many
people willing to spend the time and effort trying to solve it. The better
the question you ask, the better the answers you will probably get.


-- 
Steve
?Cheer up,? they said, ?things could be worse.? So I cheered up, and sure
enough, things got worse.



From steve+python at pearwood.info  Fri Apr  7 20:48:59 2017
From: steve+python at pearwood.info (Steve D'Aprano)
Date: Sat, 08 Apr 2017 10:48:59 +1000
Subject: Find out which module a class came from
References: <oc8sio$5o7$1@gioia.aioe.org>
Message-ID: <58e8337e$0$1622$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>

On Sat, 8 Apr 2017 06:24 am, Tobiah wrote:

> I was viewing the python source for a program at work and
> came across a class name that I knew my company had written:
> 
> import mycmp1
> import mycmp2
> import mycmp3
> import mycmp4
> import mycmp5
> 
> foo = FooClass()
> 
> 
> So I knew that FooClass was defined in one of those imports,

No you don't. You know the opposite: FooClass must be defined *locally* in
the current file, because the name isn't fully qualified.

(Well, I say "must" but technically that's not *quite* true... it is
possible that one of the modules mycmp1 etc. could inject FooClass into
your module, but that's pretty unlikely.)

If you have:

from mycmp1 import FooClass
from mycmp2 import FooClass
# etc.

foo = FooClass

then the last import wins. If you have wild-card imports:

from mycmp1 import *
from mycmp2 import *
# etc.

then (1) your dev team should be stoned to death with ripe figs (so it takes
longer), and (2) the same rule applies again: the last module importing a
FooClass will override any previous imports of the same name.


> but 
> I thought it would be tedious to track down the location of all
> of those modules (is module.__file___ the best way) 

I don't know about "best". Actually having a well-structured code base is
probably best. But if you are stuck with a tangled mess, then
module.__file__ is probably your least-worst option.


> and scan them 
> for the class definition.  Is there a better way to find the
> definition of FooClass()?

Keep in mind that a sufficiently perverted and incompetent programmer can
*accidentally* duplicate the trickiest obfuscation used by intentionally
malicious programmers, so there is no guarantee. And if you are trying to
analyse malware, or code written by somebody intentionally obfuscating the
source so as to guarantee job-security, all bets are off.

But for merely ordinary obfuscation caused by poor design, your best bet is
probably to inspect Foo.__module__.

You can also try:

inspect.getsource(FooClass)
inspect.getsourcefile(FooClass)



-- 
Steve
?Cheer up,? they said, ?things could be worse.? So I cheered up, and sure
enough, things got worse.



From rantingrickjohnson at gmail.com  Fri Apr  7 21:00:48 2017
From: rantingrickjohnson at gmail.com (Rick Johnson)
Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2017 18:00:48 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Find out which module a class came from
In-Reply-To: <58e8337e$0$1622$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
References: <oc8sio$5o7$1@gioia.aioe.org>
 <58e8337e$0$1622$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
Message-ID: <1438d258-cb94-42d8-bf6c-09833504edef@googlegroups.com>

On Friday, April 7, 2017 at 7:49:11 PM UTC-5, Steve D'Aprano wrote:
> But for merely ordinary obfuscation caused by poor design,
> your best bet is probably to inspect Foo.__module__.
> 
> You can also try:
> 
> inspect.getsource(FooClass)
> inspect.getsourcefile(FooClass)

Hmm, I tried that code but all i got was a nameError. 

    >>> inspect.getsource(FooClass)
    
    Traceback (most recent call last):
      File "<pyshell#0>", line 1, in <module>
        inspect.getsource(FooClass)
    NameError: name 'inspect' is not defined

    >>> inspect.getsourcefile(FooClass)

    Traceback (most recent call last):
      File "<pyshell#1>", line 1, in <module>
        inspect.getsourcefile(FooClass)
    NameError: name 'inspect' is not defined

You must be using the Python version that has batteries _and_
imports included.



From jussi.piitulainen at helsinki.fi  Sat Apr  8 01:51:52 2017
From: jussi.piitulainen at helsinki.fi (Jussi Piitulainen)
Date: Sat, 08 Apr 2017 08:51:52 +0300
Subject: Temporary variables in list comprehensions
References: <58730938$0$1597$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <lxbms93eqi.fsf@cochabamba.vanoostrum.org> <877f2xmmte.fsf@nautilus>
 <oc90c7$med$1@blaine.gmane.org>
 <mailman.189.1491600611.2961.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <lf5k26vbg5j.fsf@ling.helsinki.fi>

Roel Schroeven writes:

> Lele Gaifax schreef op 6/04/2017 20:07:
>> Piet van Oostrum <piet-l at pietvanoostrum.com> writes:
>>
>>> It is a poor man's 'let'. It would be nice if python had a real 'let'
>>> construction. Or for example:
>>>
>>> [(tmp, tmp + 1) for x in data with tmp = expensive_calculation(x)]
>>>
>>> Alas!
>>
>> It would be nice indeed!
>>
>> Or even
>>
>>   [(tmp, tmp + 1) for x in data
>>    with expensive_calculation(x) as tmp
>>    if tmp is not None]
>>
>
> Perhaps this:
>
>     [(tmp, tmp + 1) for tmp in
>      (expensive_calculation(x) for x in data)
>      if tmp is not None]
>
> A bit less elegant, but works right now.

The "poor man's let" works right now.


From no.email at nospam.invalid  Sat Apr  8 05:01:00 2017
From: no.email at nospam.invalid (Paul Rubin)
Date: Sat, 08 Apr 2017 02:01:00 -0700
Subject: Elastic Search
References: <CAN9Ve4XTYpyft9RBQiWkGcW3cZyL9kjuJQ2H013Nq0KdhCcECw@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.187.1491596197.2961.python-list@python.org>
 <58e82fb6$0$22140$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
Message-ID: <878tnb9stv.fsf@nightsong.com>

Steve D'Aprano <steve+python at pearwood.info> writes:
> What's elastic search?
> And what does this have to do with Python?

https://www.elastic.co/  (formerly elasticsearch.org).

It's a Lucene-based distributed search engine, something like Solr if
you're used to that.  It has Python client libraries.  That's the
closest Python connection that I know of.  I've never used it but I've
used Solr.  These things are good tools to have available if you need to
index a lot of text.


From jpolo at mail.usf.edu  Sat Apr  8 14:32:20 2017
From: jpolo at mail.usf.edu (john polo)
Date: Sat, 8 Apr 2017 13:32:20 -0500
Subject: read in a list in a file to list
Message-ID: <5db12517-4c1a-f180-978f-533a632b8b36@mail.usf.edu>

Hi,

I am using Python 3.6 on Windows 7.

I have a file called apefile.txt. apefile.txt's contents are:

apes =  "Home sapiens", "Pan troglodytes", "Gorilla gorilla"

I have a script:

apefile =  open("apefile.txt")
apelist =  apefile.read()
for ape in apelist:
    print("one of the apes is " + ape)
apefile.close()


The output from the script does not print the ape names, instead it 
prints each letter in the file. For example:

one of the apes is a
one of the apes is p
one of the apes is e


What should I do instead to get something like

one of the apes is Home sapiens
one of the apes is Pan troglodytes
one of the apes is Gorilla gorilla



John


From breamoreboy at gmail.com  Sat Apr  8 16:21:08 2017
From: breamoreboy at gmail.com (breamoreboy at gmail.com)
Date: Sat, 8 Apr 2017 13:21:08 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: read in a list in a file to list
In-Reply-To: <mailman.0.1491676359.2951.python-list@python.org>
References: <5db12517-4c1a-f180-978f-533a632b8b36@mail.usf.edu>
 <mailman.0.1491676359.2951.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <43baa05f-7cdf-4e58-a62a-1e917fea8219@googlegroups.com>

On Saturday, April 8, 2017 at 7:32:52 PM UTC+1, john polo wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> I am using Python 3.6 on Windows 7.
> 
> I have a file called apefile.txt. apefile.txt's contents are:
> 
> apes =  "Home sapiens", "Pan troglodytes", "Gorilla gorilla"
> 
> I have a script:
> 
> apefile =  open("apefile.txt")
> apelist =  apefile.read()
> for ape in apelist:
>     print("one of the apes is " + ape)
> apefile.close()
> 
> The output from the script does not print the ape names, instead it 
> prints each letter in the file. For example:
> 
> one of the apes is a
> one of the apes is p
> one of the apes is e
> 
> What should I do instead to get something like
> 
> one of the apes is Home sapiens
> one of the apes is Pan troglodytes
> one of the apes is Gorilla gorilla
>  
> John

I'll start you off.

with open("apefile.txt") as apefile:
    for line in apefile:
        doSomething(line)

String methods and/or the csv module might be used here in doSomething(line), but I'll leave that to you so that you can learn.  If you get stuck please ask again, we don't bite :)

Kindest regards.

Mark Lawrence.


From robertvstepp at gmail.com  Sat Apr  8 17:27:39 2017
From: robertvstepp at gmail.com (boB Stepp)
Date: Sat, 8 Apr 2017 16:27:39 -0500
Subject: read in a list in a file to list
In-Reply-To: <43baa05f-7cdf-4e58-a62a-1e917fea8219@googlegroups.com>
References: <5db12517-4c1a-f180-978f-533a632b8b36@mail.usf.edu>
 <mailman.0.1491676359.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <43baa05f-7cdf-4e58-a62a-1e917fea8219@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <CANDiX9J1myhOKzWfgirbA=MhfSXepbzuyj-utK+W=85fqz5RFg@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Apr 8, 2017 at 3:21 PM,  <breamoreboy at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Saturday, April 8, 2017 at 7:32:52 PM UTC+1, john polo wrote:
>> Hi,
>>
>> I am using Python 3.6 on Windows 7.
>>
>> I have a file called apefile.txt. apefile.txt's contents are:
>>
>> apes =  "Home sapiens", "Pan troglodytes", "Gorilla gorilla"
>>
>> I have a script:
>>
>> apefile =  open("apefile.txt")
>> apelist =  apefile.read()

I think you misunderstand what the read() method is doing here.  It
does not return a list.  Instead, it returns the entire file as a
single string.

>> for ape in apelist:

So here despite the variable name you chose, you are acutally
iterating over the entire file contents character by character.  See
Mark's answer/hint below on how to iterate over the file contents by
line.  You might want to look up the docs on how to use these file
objects and their methods.

>>     print("one of the apes is " + ape)
>> apefile.close()
>>
>> The output from the script does not print the ape names, instead it
>> prints each letter in the file. For example:
>>
>> one of the apes is a
>> one of the apes is p
>> one of the apes is e
>>
>> What should I do instead to get something like
>>
>> one of the apes is Home sapiens
>> one of the apes is Pan troglodytes
>> one of the apes is Gorilla gorilla
>>
>> John
>
> I'll start you off.
>
> with open("apefile.txt") as apefile:
>     for line in apefile:
>         doSomething(line)
>
> String methods and/or the csv module might be used here in doSomething(line), but I'll leave that to you so that you can learn.  If you get stuck please ask again, we don't bite :)


-- 
boB


From breamoreboy at gmail.com  Sat Apr  8 20:20:24 2017
From: breamoreboy at gmail.com (breamoreboy at gmail.com)
Date: Sat, 8 Apr 2017 17:20:24 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Python and the need for speed
Message-ID: <768f9a44-5d90-4756-8a99-821253a491f8@googlegroups.com>

I've an idea that http://www.mos6581.org/python_need_for_speed is a week late for April Fool's but just in case I'm sure that some of you may wish to comment.

Kindest regards.

Mark Lawrence.


From kbrede at gmail.com  Sat Apr  8 20:55:51 2017
From: kbrede at gmail.com (Kenton Brede)
Date: Sat, 8 Apr 2017 19:55:51 -0500
Subject: Need help with getting Key, Value out of dicts in lists
Message-ID: <CA+nSE38r0OSDFvJ8ETPFi2TrGFKemwnEpOT3_xLUx9T0RG+Q1Q@mail.gmail.com>

This is an example of the data I'm working with.  The key/value pairs may
come in any order. There are some keys like the 'Resource_group_id' key and
the 'Name' key which will always be present, but other lists may have
unique keys.

alist = [[{u'Value': 'shibboleth-prd', u'Key': 'Name'}, {u'Value': 'kvmu',
u'Key': 'Billing'},
            {u'Value': '20179204-181622543367489', u'Key':
'Resource_group_id'}],
           [{u'Value': '20172857-152037106154311', u'Key':
'Resource_group_id'},
            {u'Value': 'shibboleth-tst', u'Key': 'Name'}]]

What I want to do is something along the lines of:

for a in alist:
    if a['Resource_group_id'] == '01234829-2041523815431':
        print the Value of 'Name'
        print the Value of 'Billing'

I've found I can do the following, to print the value of 'Name' but that
only works if the 'Resource_group_id' key is the first key in the list and
the 'Name' key is in the second slot.  If each list contained the same
keys, I could probably sort the keys and use [num] to pull back values, but
they don't.

for a in alist:
    if a[0]['Key'] == 'Resource_group_id' and a[0]['Value'] ==
'20172857-152037106154311':
        print a[1]['Value']

There has to be a way to do this but I've been pounding away at this for
hours.  Any help appreciated.  I'm new to Python and not a programmer, so
go easy on me. :)


From rantingrickjohnson at gmail.com  Sat Apr  8 22:56:12 2017
From: rantingrickjohnson at gmail.com (Rick Johnson)
Date: Sat, 8 Apr 2017 19:56:12 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: read in a list in a file to list
In-Reply-To: <mailman.0.1491676359.2951.python-list@python.org>
References: <5db12517-4c1a-f180-978f-533a632b8b36@mail.usf.edu>
 <mailman.0.1491676359.2951.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <1312a680-b1d8-4144-a17b-a0348c89a9db@googlegroups.com>

@John

General debugging methodology dictates that when your output
does not match your expectation, you must never assume
anything. Here you made the fatal mistake of assuming that:
(1) files are stored as list objects, or (2) Python
automatically converts file data to list objects, or (3)
that python can read your mind, and knowing that you wanted
a list, gave you a list. But in any of those cases, you
would be wrong.

To discover the source of the problem, use Python's
wonderful introspection capabilities. In this case, the
built-in function named "type" is your friend.

> apefile = open("apefile.txt")
> apelist = apefile.read()

print(type(apelist))

I would also make a slight quibble reguarding your choice of
variable names. I would recommend "fileObj" and "fileData"
respectively. Unless you are comparing the contents of two
or more files (say: "apeData", "monkeyData" and
"marmosetData") there is no need for the "ape" mnemonic. Use
a generic name instead.


From tomuxiong at gmx.com  Sat Apr  8 23:47:45 2017
From: tomuxiong at gmx.com (Thomas Nyberg)
Date: Sat, 8 Apr 2017 20:47:45 -0700
Subject: Python and the need for speed
In-Reply-To: <768f9a44-5d90-4756-8a99-821253a491f8@googlegroups.com>
References: <768f9a44-5d90-4756-8a99-821253a491f8@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <82805919-6788-1542-babb-d6652d54e2ce@gmx.com>

On 04/08/2017 05:20 PM, breamoreboy at gmail.com wrote:
> I've an idea that http://www.mos6581.org/python_need_for_speed is a week late for April Fool's but just in case I'm sure that some of you may wish to comment.
> 
> Kindest regards.
> 
> Mark Lawrence.
> 
Regarding your restricted subset of python you call turbopython, have
you looked into rpython which is a restricted subset of python used by
pypy to implement their jit?

http://rpython.readthedocs.io/en/latest/faq.html#what-is-this-rpython-language


From rosuav at gmail.com  Sat Apr  8 23:57:28 2017
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Sun, 9 Apr 2017 13:57:28 +1000
Subject: Python and the need for speed
In-Reply-To: <768f9a44-5d90-4756-8a99-821253a491f8@googlegroups.com>
References: <768f9a44-5d90-4756-8a99-821253a491f8@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmrMWpzGd9Lf_sa-mscvqezY01U5kDCPRh07Nuivvxo8yg@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Apr 9, 2017 at 10:20 AM,  <breamoreboy at gmail.com> wrote:
> I've an idea that http://www.mos6581.org/python_need_for_speed is a week late for April Fool's but just in case I'm sure that some of you may wish to comment.
>

>From that page:

> Other candidates for banishment from TurboPython include eval and exec.

Bye bye namedtuple. And compile() is going to have to go, since you
could implement eval/exec by creating a new function:

>>> runme = r"""
  print("Hello, world!")
  import sys
  sys.stdout.write("I can import modules.\n")
"""
>>> type(lambda: 1)(compile("def f():" + runme, "exec", "exec").co_consts[0], globals())()
Hello, world!
I can import modules.

So if compile() goes, you also lose ast.parse, which means you lose
introspection tools, plus you lose literal_eval and friends. I'm also
not sure whether the import machinery would have to be rewritten, but
a quick 'git grep' suggests that it would. Removing eval and exec is
not as simple as removing them from the standard library.

In fact, extreme dynamism is baked deep into the language. You'd have
to make some fairly sweeping language changes to get any real benefits
from restricting things. There are better ways to improve performance,
which is why statickification isn't really pursued.

These kinds of posts always come from people who haven't actually
tried it. They think that, hey, it'd be easy to just make a subset of
Python that's optimizable! But if you actually *do* it, you'd have to
either restrict the language HUGELY, or reimplement all sorts of
things in a slower way.

ChrisA


From Irv at furrypants.com  Sun Apr  9 00:04:50 2017
From: Irv at furrypants.com (Irv Kalb)
Date: Sat, 8 Apr 2017 21:04:50 -0700
Subject: Need help with getting Key, Value out of dicts in lists
In-Reply-To: <CA+nSE38r0OSDFvJ8ETPFi2TrGFKemwnEpOT3_xLUx9T0RG+Q1Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CA+nSE38r0OSDFvJ8ETPFi2TrGFKemwnEpOT3_xLUx9T0RG+Q1Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <151B2183-414E-4A20-AAA4-17D5143089FE@furrypants.com>


> On Apr 8, 2017, at 5:55 PM, Kenton Brede <kbrede at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> This is an example of the data I'm working with.  The key/value pairs may
> come in any order. There are some keys like the 'Resource_group_id' key and
> the 'Name' key which will always be present, but other lists may have
> unique keys.
> 
> alist = [[{u'Value': 'shibboleth-prd', u'Key': 'Name'}, {u'Value': 'kvmu',
> u'Key': 'Billing'},
>            {u'Value': '20179204-181622543367489', u'Key':
> 'Resource_group_id'}],
>           [{u'Value': '20172857-152037106154311', u'Key':
> 'Resource_group_id'},
>            {u'Value': 'shibboleth-tst', u'Key': 'Name'}]]
> 
> What I want to do is something along the lines of:
> 
> for a in alist:
>    if a['Resource_group_id'] == '01234829-2041523815431':
>        print the Value of 'Name'
>        print the Value of 'Billing'
> 
> I've found I can do the following, to print the value of 'Name' but that
> only works if the 'Resource_group_id' key is the first key in the list and
> the 'Name' key is in the second slot.  If each list contained the same
> keys, I could probably sort the keys and use [num] to pull back values, but
> they don't.
> 
> for a in alist:
>    if a[0]['Key'] == 'Resource_group_id' and a[0]['Value'] ==
> '20172857-152037106154311':
>        print a[1]['Value']
> 
> There has to be a way to do this but I've been pounding away at this for
> hours.  Any help appreciated.  I'm new to Python and not a programmer, so
> go easy on me. :)
> -- 
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
> 



From Irv at furrypants.com  Sun Apr  9 00:29:21 2017
From: Irv at furrypants.com (Irv Kalb)
Date: Sat, 8 Apr 2017 21:29:21 -0700
Subject: Need help with getting Key, Value out of dicts in lists
In-Reply-To: <AE759999-3D74-4CE2-913D-A25632B7FCEC@furrypants.com>
References: <CA+nSE38r0OSDFvJ8ETPFi2TrGFKemwnEpOT3_xLUx9T0RG+Q1Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <AE759999-3D74-4CE2-913D-A25632B7FCEC@furrypants.com>
Message-ID: <BB7111CC-7FC8-46BA-95D9-EB0BDB2B39B3@furrypants.com>

[ Sorry, forgot the important stuff! ]

What you want to do is tricky because your data structure is difficult to deal with.  My guess is that it has to do with a misconception about how a Python dictionary works. Yes, it is a series of key/value pairs, but not the way you have it.   It looks like you put together dictionaries where each dictionary has a 'Value' and a 'Key'.

Instead, _each_ item in a dictionary is a key value pair. The key is typically a string, and the value is obviously some value associated with that key.  For example, if you have the ability to rebuild your data a different way, it looks like it would be better to deal with it something like this:

aList = [
           {'Name':'shibboleth-prd', 'Billing':'kmvu', 'Resource_group_id': '20179204-181622543367489'},
           {'Name':'shibboleth-tst', 'Resource_group_id':'20172857-152037106154311'}
           ]

This is a list of dictionaries.  However, I'm not sure what you are trying to do with this data.  I'm guessing that you want to match a resource group id, and if you find it, print the name and the billing info if they exist.  If so, you may want something like this (untested):

def printInfo(thisGroupID):
   for thisDict in aList:    # loop through all dictionaries in the list
	if thisGroupID == aList['Resource_group_id']:
           if 'Name' in thisDict:   # if thisDict has a key called 'Name'
               print ('Name is', thisDict['Dict'])
           if 'Billing' in thisDict:   #  if thisDict has a key called 'Billing'
               print ('Billing is', thisDict['Billing'])

Hope this helps,

Irv
> On Apr 8, 2017, at 9:04 PM, Irv Kalb <Irv at furrypants.com> wrote:
> 
> What you want to do is tricky because your data structure is difficult to deal with.  My guess is that it has to do with a misconception about how a Python dictionary works. Yes, it is a series of key/value pairs, but not the way you have it.   It looks like you put together dictionaries where each dictionary has a 'Value' and a 'Key'.
> 
> Instead, _each_ item in a dictionary is a key value pair. The key is typically a string, and the value is obviously some value associated with that key.  For example, if you have the ability to rebuild your data a different way, it looks like it would be better to deal with it something like this:
> 
> aList = [
>            {'Name':'shibboleth-prd', 'Billing':'kmvu', 'Resource_group_id': '20179204-181622543367489'},
>            {'Name':'shibboleth-tst', 'Resource_group_id':'20172857-152037106154311'}
>            ]
> 
> This is a list of dictionaries.  However, I'm not sure what you are trying to do with this data.  I'm guessing that you want to match a resource group id, and if you find it, print the name and the billing info if they exist.  If so, you may want something like this (untested):
> 
> def printInfo(thisGroupID):
>    for thisDict in aList:    # loop through all dictionaries in the list
> 	if thisGroupID == aList['Resource_group_id']:
>            if 'Name' in thisDict:   # if thisDict has a key called 'Name'
>                print ('Name is', thisDict['Dict'])
>            if 'Billing' in thisDict:   #  if thisDict has a key called 'Billing'
>                print ('Billing is', thisDict['Billing'])
> 
> Hope this helps,
> 
> Irv
> 
> 
> 
>> On Apr 8, 2017, at 5:55 PM, Kenton Brede <kbrede at gmail.com> wrote:
>> 
>> This is an example of the data I'm working with.  The key/value pairs may
>> come in any order. There are some keys like the 'Resource_group_id' key and
>> the 'Name' key which will always be present, but other lists may have
>> unique keys.
>> 
>> alist = [[{u'Value': 'shibboleth-prd', u'Key': 'Name'}, {u'Value': 'kvmu',
>> u'Key': 'Billing'},
>>           {u'Value': '20179204-181622543367489', u'Key':
>> 'Resource_group_id'}],
>>          [{u'Value': '20172857-152037106154311', u'Key':
>> 'Resource_group_id'},
>>           {u'Value': 'shibboleth-tst', u'Key': 'Name'}]]
>> 
>> What I want to do is something along the lines of:
>> 
>> for a in alist:
>>   if a['Resource_group_id'] == '01234829-2041523815431':
>>       print the Value of 'Name'
>>       print the Value of 'Billing'
>> 
>> I've found I can do the following, to print the value of 'Name' but that
>> only works if the 'Resource_group_id' key is the first key in the list and
>> the 'Name' key is in the second slot.  If each list contained the same
>> keys, I could probably sort the keys and use [num] to pull back values, but
>> they don't.
>> 
>> for a in alist:
>>   if a[0]['Key'] == 'Resource_group_id' and a[0]['Value'] ==
>> '20172857-152037106154311':
>>       print a[1]['Value']
>> 
>> There has to be a way to do this but I've been pounding away at this for
>> hours.  Any help appreciated.  I'm new to Python and not a programmer, so
>> go easy on me. :)
>> -- 
>> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
>> 
> 



From steve at pearwood.info  Sun Apr  9 03:39:06 2017
From: steve at pearwood.info (Steven D'Aprano)
Date: 09 Apr 2017 07:39:06 GMT
Subject: Python and the need for speed
References: <768f9a44-5d90-4756-8a99-821253a491f8@googlegroups.com>
 <CAPTjJmrMWpzGd9Lf_sa-mscvqezY01U5kDCPRh07Nuivvxo8yg@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.5.1491710256.2951.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <58e9e519$0$1528$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>

On Sun, 09 Apr 2017 13:57:28 +1000, Chris Angelico wrote:

> On Sun, Apr 9, 2017 at 10:20 AM,  <breamoreboy at gmail.com> wrote:
>> I've an idea that http://www.mos6581.org/python_need_for_speed is a
>> week late for April Fool's but just in case I'm sure that some of you
>> may wish to comment.

I'm not sure why Mark thinks that wanting Python to be faster is a joke. 
As the page points out, there are many projects attempting (with greater 
or lesser success) to speed up Python.

I'm happy for Mark if his need for high performance is low, but CPython 
at least is definitely in the middle-tier of performance, and PyPy isn't 
suitable for all use-cases. I don't know anyone who has ever said "this 
interpreter is too fast, can you make it run slower?"


>>From that page:
> 
>> Other candidates for banishment from TurboPython include eval and exec.
> 
> Bye bye namedtuple. 

All that would mean is that the implementation of namedtuple would have 
to change. It would probably require some sort of support from the 
compiler, but that's okay, the compiler can do (nearly) anything.

Something as important and useful as namedtuple would not be dropped from 
this hypothetical TurboPython. It would just shift the implementation 
from pure-Python to something else.

exec() is actually only needed for a *tiny* bit of namedtuple. The 
original implementation by Raymond Hettinger takes the easy way out by 
using exec on the entire class definition, but it is trivially easy to 
restrict that to just the class __new__ method:

https://code.activestate.com/recipes/578918-yet-another-namedtuple


but even that could be avoided with a minimal amount of help from the 
compiler.


> And compile() is going to have to go, 

Indeed.


> since you
> could implement eval/exec by creating a new function:
> 
>>>> runme = r"""
>   print("Hello, world!")
>   import sys sys.stdout.write("I can import modules.\n")
> """
>>>> type(lambda: 1)(compile("def f():" + runme, "exec",
>>>> "exec").co_consts[0], globals())()
> Hello, world!
> I can import modules.
> 
> So if compile() goes, you also lose ast.parse, 

Probably.


> which means you lose introspection tools, 

*Some* introspection tools. Python has many that don't rely on compile or 
ast.parse.

Hell, even Java has some introspection tools, based on reflection, which 
lets you do Python-like things at runtime. Of course if you do this, you 
lose performance.


> plus you lose literal_eval and friends. 

I don't know what "friends" you are referring to, but again, if 
literal_eval is important, the compiler can support it. If you can 
support an entire Python interpreter and compiler in the form of 
compile(), then you can support more restricted subset of the language. 
Writing a parser to evaluate strings, integers, and a few other data 
types is not exactly brain surgery.



> I'm also
> not sure whether the import machinery would have to be rewritten, but a
> quick 'git grep' suggests that it would. Removing eval and exec is not
> as simple as removing them from the standard library.

Well of course not, but removing eval and exec is only a necessary, not 
sufficient, condition, for enabling a huge bunch of compiler optimizations 
and speeding up Python.

This "TurboPython" would require a completely new implementation of the 
Python interpreter to be fast. It's not as if eval and exec are great 
heavy concrete weights chained to the leg of the compiler, and all you 
need do is remove the chain and the compiler suddenly becomes thirty 
times faster.


> In fact, extreme dynamism is baked deep into the language. You'd have to
> make some fairly sweeping language changes to get any real benefits from
> restricting things. 

Well, maybe. As is pointed out many, many times, 99% of Python code 
avoids the sorts of extreme dynamism that keeps things slow. Lots of 
people would be satisfied with a language *really close* to Python that 
was ten or twenty times faster, even if it meant that you couldn't write 
code like this:


answer = input("What's your name?")
exec("name = %r" % answer)
print(name)


Even better would be if the compiler was smart enough to use the 
optimized, fast runtime when the dynamic features aren't used, and fall 
back on a slower implementation only when needed to support the more 
dynamic features.

I wonder how Victor Stinner's FAT Python is going?

http://faster-cpython.readthedocs.io/fat_python.html




> There are better ways to improve performance,

And yet Python lags behind Javascript and PHP for speed...



-- 
Steve


From __peter__ at web.de  Sun Apr  9 04:15:51 2017
From: __peter__ at web.de (Peter Otten)
Date: Sun, 09 Apr 2017 10:15:51 +0200
Subject: Need help with getting Key, Value out of dicts in lists
References: <CA+nSE38r0OSDFvJ8ETPFi2TrGFKemwnEpOT3_xLUx9T0RG+Q1Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <occqjj$h8i$1@blaine.gmane.org>

Kenton Brede wrote:

> This is an example of the data I'm working with.  The key/value pairs may
> come in any order. There are some keys like the 'Resource_group_id' key
> and the 'Name' key which will always be present, but other lists may have
> unique keys.
> 
> alist = [[{u'Value': 'shibboleth-prd', u'Key': 'Name'}, {u'Value': 'kvmu',
> u'Key': 'Billing'},
>             {u'Value': '20179204-181622543367489', u'Key':
> 'Resource_group_id'}],
>            [{u'Value': '20172857-152037106154311', u'Key':
> 'Resource_group_id'},
>             {u'Value': 'shibboleth-tst', u'Key': 'Name'}]]
> 
> What I want to do is something along the lines of:
> 
> for a in alist:
>     if a['Resource_group_id'] == '01234829-2041523815431':
>         print the Value of 'Name'
>         print the Value of 'Billing'
> 
> I've found I can do the following, to print the value of 'Name' but that
> only works if the 'Resource_group_id' key is the first key in the list and
> the 'Name' key is in the second slot.  If each list contained the same
> keys, I could probably sort the keys and use [num] to pull back values,
> but they don't.
> 
> for a in alist:
>     if a[0]['Key'] == 'Resource_group_id' and a[0]['Value'] ==
> '20172857-152037106154311':
>         print a[1]['Value']
> 
> There has to be a way to do this but I've been pounding away at this for
> hours.  Any help appreciated.  I'm new to Python and not a programmer, so
> go easy on me. :)

The easiest approach is to convert the inner list of dicts into one 
dictionary. Here's a way that ensures that duplicates are not overwritten 
silently:

def to_dict(pairs):
    result = {}
    for pair in pairs:
        key = pair["Key"]
        value = pair["Value"]
        if key in result:
            raise ValueError("Duplicate key {!r}".format(key))
        result[key] = value
    return result

Example:
>>> to_dict([{"Key": "foo", "Value": "bar"}, {"Key": "one", "Value": 
"two"}])
{'foo': 'bar', 'one': 'two'}

Now you can convert your data:

blist = [to_dict(pairs) for pairs in alist]

Then the rest of the code becomes straight-forward:

# linear lookup, you have to go through the whole list
# to find the matching items
for b in blist:
    if b["Resource_group_id"] == '20179204-181622543367489':
        print b["Name"]
        print b["Billing"]

If you are planning to do more than a few lookups and the lookup is always 
by resource group ID you can use a dict as the outer data structure, too:

from collections import defaultdict

# map ressource-group-ID to list of matching dicts
bdict =  defaultdict(list)

for pairs in alist:
    d = to_dict(pairs)
    bdict[d["Resource_group_id"]].append(d)

# constant-time lookup of a list containing all matching items 
for b in bdict["20179204-181622543367489"]:
    print b["Name"]
    print b["Billing"]




From rosuav at gmail.com  Sun Apr  9 05:05:35 2017
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Sun, 9 Apr 2017 19:05:35 +1000
Subject: Python and the need for speed
In-Reply-To: <58e9e519$0$1528$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
References: <768f9a44-5d90-4756-8a99-821253a491f8@googlegroups.com>
 <CAPTjJmrMWpzGd9Lf_sa-mscvqezY01U5kDCPRh07Nuivvxo8yg@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.5.1491710256.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <58e9e519$0$1528$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmq4bCoXWryo5Jahh4he1_GP5LGjyKtJ1Mxs_XkNggi-6w@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Apr 9, 2017 at 5:39 PM, Steven D'Aprano <steve at pearwood.info> wrote:
> On Sun, 09 Apr 2017 13:57:28 +1000, Chris Angelico wrote:
>>>From that page:
>>
>>> Other candidates for banishment from TurboPython include eval and exec.
>>
>> Bye bye namedtuple.
>
> All that would mean is that the implementation of namedtuple would have
> to change. It would probably require some sort of support from the
> compiler, but that's okay, the compiler can do (nearly) anything.
>
> Something as important and useful as namedtuple would not be dropped from
> this hypothetical TurboPython. It would just shift the implementation
> from pure-Python to something else.
>
> exec() is actually only needed for a *tiny* bit of namedtuple. The
> original implementation by Raymond Hettinger takes the easy way out by
> using exec on the entire class definition, but it is trivially easy to
> restrict that to just the class __new__ method:
>
> https://code.activestate.com/recipes/578918-yet-another-namedtuple
>
>
> but even that could be avoided with a minimal amount of help from the
> compiler.

When people talk about making a restricted optimizable subset of
Python, the implication (if not the explicit declaration) is that it's
done strictly by removing, not by rewriting. A couple more quotes from
the article:

> It should be possible to define a subset of the Python language,
> uninspiredly dubbed ?TurboPython?, that excludes those features
> that stand in the way of high-performance JIT execution (or
> compilation). Not using some of these features coincides with
> good design practices, so it doesn?t necessarily have to be all bad.
...
> Since TurboPython is a subset of Python, it will also run on Python
> interpreters, albeit slower.

Both of these imply that the standard library of TurboPython is
*exactly* the standard library of CPython, minus the bits that aren't
supported. We just cut a few of those nasty dynamic features out of
the language, and voila! it becomes faster. (Or in this case,
JITable.) There's nothing suggested here about reimplementing existing
features in a different way, with the consequent possibility of having
slightly different behaviour - a Python script is guaranteed to have
the same semantics on TurboPython as on CPython. This is the kind of
description used by Asm.js (http://asmjs.org), defined as a strict
subset of JavaScript that can be implemented very efficiently, but
with an absolute guarantee that the semantics will be identical.

>> And compile() is going to have to go,
>
> Indeed.
>
>
>> since you
>> could implement eval/exec by creating a new function:
>>
>>>>> runme = r"""
>>   print("Hello, world!")
>>   import sys sys.stdout.write("I can import modules.\n")
>> """
>>>>> type(lambda: 1)(compile("def f():" + runme, "exec",
>>>>> "exec").co_consts[0], globals())()
>> Hello, world!
>> I can import modules.
>>
>> So if compile() goes, you also lose ast.parse,
>
> Probably.

The only way to *not* lose ast.parse() is to completely reimplement it
or compile(), which is not a good idea IMO (unless you can somehow
dump a pure-Python compile() out of an existing source), and which is
not at all implied to be part of the proposal.

>> which means you lose introspection tools,
>
> *Some* introspection tools. Python has many that don't rely on compile or
> ast.parse.

Yes, that's what I meant - that there will be introspection tools that
you lose. Sorry for the unclear language. Obviously there's a lot of
introspection that's based on pre-existing features, like the
attributes on functions and code objects.

>> plus you lose literal_eval and friends.
>
> I don't know what "friends" you are referring to, but again, if
> literal_eval is important, the compiler can support it. If you can
> support an entire Python interpreter and compiler in the form of
> compile(), then you can support more restricted subset of the language.
> Writing a parser to evaluate strings, integers, and a few other data
> types is not exactly brain surgery.

Other tools built on top of literal_eval. Though I had the feeling
there were more of them than a 'git grep' has shown up - it's actually
only used in a couple of places in the stdlib. My bad.

But again, you certainly COULD reimplement literal_eval, but then you
have to keep your implementation accurate and up-to-date, else you
risk bugs creeping in. It's a non-trivial task to rewrite these kinds
of things and maintain parallel versions; by calling on compile(), the
current implementation *for free* is kept up-to-date with changes in
CPython's grammar. It wouldn't have needed any changes when the u"..."
prefix was re-added to Python 3.3, for instance, because the AST
didn't change.

>> I'm also
>> not sure whether the import machinery would have to be rewritten, but a
>> quick 'git grep' suggests that it would. Removing eval and exec is not
>> as simple as removing them from the standard library.
>
> Well of course not, but removing eval and exec is only a necessary, not
> sufficient, condition, for enabling a huge bunch of compiler optimizations
> and speeding up Python.
>
> This "TurboPython" would require a completely new implementation of the
> Python interpreter to be fast. It's not as if eval and exec are great
> heavy concrete weights chained to the leg of the compiler, and all you
> need do is remove the chain and the compiler suddenly becomes thirty
> times faster.

Right. But my point is that it _also_ has to be a completely new
implementation of large slabs of the standard library, too. At some
point, it's not "Python minus the bits we can't JIT", but it's "a
complete implementation of a Python-like language with a restricted
stdlib". RPython has already been mentioned.

>> In fact, extreme dynamism is baked deep into the language. You'd have to
>> make some fairly sweeping language changes to get any real benefits from
>> restricting things.
>
> Well, maybe. As is pointed out many, many times, 99% of Python code
> avoids the sorts of extreme dynamism that keeps things slow. Lots of
> people would be satisfied with a language *really close* to Python that
> was ten or twenty times faster, even if it meant that you couldn't write
> code like this:
>
>
> answer = input("What's your name?")
> exec("name = %r" % answer)
> print(name)

Sure. But would they also be happy that dunder methods for operators
have different behaviour? I rather suspect that they'll be a target
early on. And mandatory type hints don't help, because type hinting
guarantees that something is a valid subclass, but optimization
depends on the exact type.

rosuav at sikorsky:~/tmp$ cat demo.py
def add_two_integers(x: int, y: int):
    tot = x + y
    print("I am adding", x, "and", y, "to get", tot)
    return tot

# Simple example
add_two_integers(5, 7)

# Proof that non-integers are rejected
# add_two_integers(5.0, 7.0)
# Uncomment to get an error from MyPy

# Evil example
class Int(int):
    def __add__(self, other):
        return int(self) + other - 1
add_two_integers(Int(5), 7)
rosuav at sikorsky:~/tmp$ mypy demo.py
rosuav at sikorsky:~/tmp$ python3 demo.py
I am adding 5 and 7 to get 12
I am adding 5 and 7 to get 11


The only way to optimize this function is to somehow know that you're
working with actual integers - which probably means you're doing work
that can be handed off to numpy.

> Even better would be if the compiler was smart enough to use the
> optimized, fast runtime when the dynamic features aren't used, and fall
> back on a slower implementation only when needed to support the more
> dynamic features.

Yes. As long as it can know when the more dynamic features are being
used - and that's the hard part. Remember, as soon as you have a
single class implemented in Python, it could have a method injected
into it without your knowledge. Can you detect that statically, or can
you use the versioning of __dict__ to notice that something's been
broken? What makes you fall back to the default implementation?

The problem is the same thing that gives Python a lot of its beauty:
that there's very little difference between built-in types and
user-defined types. In CPython, types implemented in C are immutable,
but other than that, they're basically the same thing as anything you
make, and you can inspect them and stuff:

>>> int.__add__(5, 7)
12

In contrast, JavaScript has a fundamental difference between "stuff
implemented in JavaScript" and "stuff the interpreter gives you". For
example, you can create a constructor function and set its .prototype
attribute to be some object, which is broadly like subclassing that
object; but you can't do that with a Number (the JS floating-point
type). You don't get a subclass of Number that you can then tweak the
behaviour of; you get a completely different thing, one that doesn't
behave like a Number at all. I'm sure a JS expert could tell me how to
make an object that behaves like a Number, but it isn't as simple as
Python's way:

class MyInt(int):
    ...

Pike, too, manages to outperform Python by a notable factor (usually
around 3:1 or better) - and its native integer type is also distinctly
different from its object types. You can't say:

class MyInt
{
    inherit int;
}

You can inherit from the equivalent object form Gmp.mpz, for those
situations where you want an int-like object, but it's not going to
perform as well as the native int does.

Personally, I think that would be a far better avenue to go down. I'm
not sure it would be possible to retrofit this to Python (for example,
there are guarantees about object identity that apply to *all
objects*), but making the core immutable types into value-only
non-objects wouldn't break a lot of code, and might provide for some
significant performance improvements to string manipulation and
arithmetic operations. But at some point, it's not really Python any
more.

ChrisA


From saxri89 at gmail.com  Sun Apr  9 10:20:15 2017
From: saxri89 at gmail.com (Xristos Xristoou)
Date: Sun, 9 Apr 2017 07:20:15 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: auth select chooses in forms.py
Message-ID: <ac3fc60c-6755-4efa-8063-e7c3913fcf49@googlegroups.com>

I have read this code in this question and look nice. but if I have user auth and I want user select only your odjects how to change that code ?for ex chooses your personal upload images.
from django.forms.widgets import Select
    class ProvinceForm(ModelForm):
        class Meta:
            CHOICES = Province.objects.all()

            model = Province
            fields = ('name',)
            widgets = {
                'name': Select(choices=( (x.id, x.name) for x in CHOICES )),
            }
my model :
class MyModel(models.Model):
    user = models.ForeignKey(User, unique=True)
    upload = models.ImageField(upload_to='images')


From karlfx4 at gmail.com  Sun Apr  9 13:53:18 2017
From: karlfx4 at gmail.com (Peter Henry)
Date: Sun, 9 Apr 2017 10:53:18 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Swiss Ephemeris
Message-ID: <49f767bc-8059-46bb-82b3-718dc8295b53@googlegroups.com>

Hi Group

I have a package that has been altered to imported in to python, however I tired to get is working but without success I be missing something obvious

The Swiss Ephemeris enable planetary coordinate  to be imported and used in your program

Files access https://pypi.python.org/pypi/pyswisseph

Many thanks in advance 

Peter 





From bc at freeuk.com  Sun Apr  9 14:34:31 2017
From: bc at freeuk.com (bartc)
Date: Sun, 9 Apr 2017 19:34:31 +0100
Subject: Python and the need for speed
In-Reply-To: <mailman.5.1491710256.2951.python-list@python.org>
References: <768f9a44-5d90-4756-8a99-821253a491f8@googlegroups.com>
 <CAPTjJmrMWpzGd9Lf_sa-mscvqezY01U5kDCPRh07Nuivvxo8yg@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.5.1491710256.2951.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <W8vGA.379049$dI6.117383@fx31.am4>

On 09/04/2017 04:57, Chris Angelico wrote:
> On Sun, Apr 9, 2017 at 10:20 AM,  <breamoreboy at gmail.com> wrote:
>> I've an idea that http://www.mos6581.org/python_need_for_speed is a week late for April Fool's but just in case I'm sure that some of you may wish to comment.

> In fact, extreme dynamism is baked deep into the language. You'd have
> to make some fairly sweeping language changes to get any real benefits
> from restricting things. There are better ways to improve performance,
> which is why statickification isn't really pursued.

I have my own interpreted language which I call 'dynamic', but compared 
with Python, code in it might as well be set in concrete.

The only thing dynamic about it is the types of variables. But, it does 
work extremely well. So I think the dynamism of Python is over the top.

Yes, you can make a highly restricted version for which it is easier to 
make faster implementations, but it would be a different language that 
just uses Python syntax. (With considerable problems interfacing to 
existing dynamic Python code.)

 > Bye bye namedtuple.

I'm not completely sure what namedtuples are but they sound like some 
sort of record type. Presumably there is some reason why general 
attributes can't be used. The latter sound inefficient and so do the 
former if they depend on advanced dynamism to work.

Now, my language has records built-in, and they work extremely well, 
without using any of the dynamic features of Python other than dynamic 
variables as I said.

So such things can be made viable with the proper language support 
rather than relying on layers of what I consider unnecessarily esoteric 
features. Get the basics working first.

-- 
bartc


From kbrede at gmail.com  Sun Apr  9 17:21:47 2017
From: kbrede at gmail.com (Kenton Brede)
Date: Sun, 9 Apr 2017 16:21:47 -0500
Subject: Need help with getting Key, Value out of dicts in lists
In-Reply-To: <BB7111CC-7FC8-46BA-95D9-EB0BDB2B39B3@furrypants.com>
References: <CA+nSE38r0OSDFvJ8ETPFi2TrGFKemwnEpOT3_xLUx9T0RG+Q1Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <AE759999-3D74-4CE2-913D-A25632B7FCEC@furrypants.com>
 <BB7111CC-7FC8-46BA-95D9-EB0BDB2B39B3@furrypants.com>
Message-ID: <CA+nSE3_rZnQQeuC7uMaHRuoyvqKdsC+AeNyL+4_sqLVF8ajMKw@mail.gmail.com>

Thanks for the response Irv.  On one level I'm glad to know that someone
more knowledgeable than myself sees this data structure as difficult. :)  I
was thinking it was an easy problem to solve.  Unfortunately that is the
structure I have to use.

The data comes from pulling back tag information on AWS load balancers.  So
each list within the overall parent list are tags from one load balancer.
Each dict pair inside the inner lists, is one tag.  To simplify, below is a
representation of one load balancer and two tags.  The parent list contains
multiple inner lists, each for a single load balancer.

[
    [
        {
            "Value": "20176783-181622543367489",
            "Key": "Resource_group_id"
        },
        {
            "Value": "shibboleth-prd-alb",
            "Key": "Name"
        }
    ],
]

I have an ugly solution of 'for loops' and 'if statements' that works,
which uses a different path to get to the information.  I was just hoping
to be more direct by matching the 'Value' of  'Key: Resource_group_id' and
pull back the 'Value' of 'Key: Name' and other tags as needed.

Thanks,

Kenton Brede





On Sat, Apr 8, 2017 at 11:29 PM, Irv Kalb <Irv at furrypants.com> wrote:

> [ Sorry, forgot the important stuff! ]
>
> What you want to do is tricky because your data structure is difficult to
> deal with.  My guess is that it has to do with a misconception about how a
> Python dictionary works. Yes, it is a series of key/value pairs, but not
> the way you have it.   It looks like you put together dictionaries where
> each dictionary has a 'Value' and a 'Key'.
>
> Instead, _each_ item in a dictionary is a key value pair. The key is
> typically a string, and the value is obviously some value associated with
> that key.  For example, if you have the ability to rebuild your data a
> different way, it looks like it would be better to deal with it something
> like this:
>
> aList = [
>            {'Name':'shibboleth-prd', 'Billing':'kmvu',
> 'Resource_group_id': '20179204-181622543367489'},
>            {'Name':'shibboleth-tst', 'Resource_group_id':'20172857-
> 152037106154311'}
>            ]
>
> This is a list of dictionaries.  However, I'm not sure what you are trying
> to do with this data.  I'm guessing that you want to match a resource group
> id, and if you find it, print the name and the billing info if they exist.
> If so, you may want something like this (untested):
>
> def printInfo(thisGroupID):
>    for thisDict in aList:    # loop through all dictionaries in the list
>         if thisGroupID == aList['Resource_group_id']:
>            if 'Name' in thisDict:   # if thisDict has a key called 'Name'
>                print ('Name is', thisDict['Dict'])
>            if 'Billing' in thisDict:   #  if thisDict has a key called
> 'Billing'
>                print ('Billing is', thisDict['Billing'])
>
> Hope this helps,
>
> Irv
> > On Apr 8, 2017, at 9:04 PM, Irv Kalb <Irv at furrypants.com> wrote:
> >
> > What you want to do is tricky because your data structure is difficult
> to deal with.  My guess is that it has to do with a misconception about how
> a Python dictionary works. Yes, it is a series of key/value pairs, but not
> the way you have it.   It looks like you put together dictionaries where
> each dictionary has a 'Value' and a 'Key'.
> >
> > Instead, _each_ item in a dictionary is a key value pair. The key is
> typically a string, and the value is obviously some value associated with
> that key.  For example, if you have the ability to rebuild your data a
> different way, it looks like it would be better to deal with it something
> like this:
> >
> > aList = [
> >            {'Name':'shibboleth-prd', 'Billing':'kmvu',
> 'Resource_group_id': '20179204-181622543367489'},
> >            {'Name':'shibboleth-tst', 'Resource_group_id':'20172857-
> 152037106154311'}
> >            ]
> >
> > This is a list of dictionaries.  However, I'm not sure what you are
> trying to do with this data.  I'm guessing that you want to match a
> resource group id, and if you find it, print the name and the billing info
> if they exist.  If so, you may want something like this (untested):
> >
> > def printInfo(thisGroupID):
> >    for thisDict in aList:    # loop through all dictionaries in the list
> >       if thisGroupID == aList['Resource_group_id']:
> >            if 'Name' in thisDict:   # if thisDict has a key called 'Name'
> >                print ('Name is', thisDict['Dict'])
> >            if 'Billing' in thisDict:   #  if thisDict has a key called
> 'Billing'
> >                print ('Billing is', thisDict['Billing'])
> >
> > Hope this helps,
> >
> > Irv
> >
> >
> >
> >> On Apr 8, 2017, at 5:55 PM, Kenton Brede <kbrede at gmail.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> This is an example of the data I'm working with.  The key/value pairs
> may
> >> come in any order. There are some keys like the 'Resource_group_id' key
> and
> >> the 'Name' key which will always be present, but other lists may have
> >> unique keys.
> >>
> >> alist = [[{u'Value': 'shibboleth-prd', u'Key': 'Name'}, {u'Value':
> 'kvmu',
> >> u'Key': 'Billing'},
> >>           {u'Value': '20179204-181622543367489', u'Key':
> >> 'Resource_group_id'}],
> >>          [{u'Value': '20172857-152037106154311', u'Key':
> >> 'Resource_group_id'},
> >>           {u'Value': 'shibboleth-tst', u'Key': 'Name'}]]
> >>
> >> What I want to do is something along the lines of:
> >>
> >> for a in alist:
> >>   if a['Resource_group_id'] == '01234829-2041523815431':
> >>       print the Value of 'Name'
> >>       print the Value of 'Billing'
> >>
> >> I've found I can do the following, to print the value of 'Name' but that
> >> only works if the 'Resource_group_id' key is the first key in the list
> and
> >> the 'Name' key is in the second slot.  If each list contained the same
> >> keys, I could probably sort the keys and use [num] to pull back values,
> but
> >> they don't.
> >>
> >> for a in alist:
> >>   if a[0]['Key'] == 'Resource_group_id' and a[0]['Value'] ==
> >> '20172857-152037106154311':
> >>       print a[1]['Value']
> >>
> >> There has to be a way to do this but I've been pounding away at this for
> >> hours.  Any help appreciated.  I'm new to Python and not a programmer,
> so
> >> go easy on me. :)
> >> --
> >> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
> >>
> >
>
> --
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
>


From jpolo at mail.usf.edu  Sun Apr  9 17:22:25 2017
From: jpolo at mail.usf.edu (john polo)
Date: Sun, 9 Apr 2017 16:22:25 -0500
Subject: read in a list in a file to list
In-Reply-To: <43baa05f-7cdf-4e58-a62a-1e917fea8219@googlegroups.com>
References: <5db12517-4c1a-f180-978f-533a632b8b36@mail.usf.edu>
 <mailman.0.1491676359.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <43baa05f-7cdf-4e58-a62a-1e917fea8219@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <820a9e29-25b4-baaf-c8cb-ff40b980e6ec@mail.usf.edu>

On 4/8/2017 3:21 PM, breamoreboy at gmail.com wrote:
> On Saturday, April 8, 2017 at 7:32:52 PM UTC+1, john polo wrote:
>> Hi,
>>
>> I am using Python 3.6 on Windows 7.
>>
>> I have a file called apefile.txt. apefile.txt's contents are:
>>
>> apes =  "Home sapiens", "Pan troglodytes", "Gorilla gorilla"
>>
>> I have a script:
>>
>> apefile =  open("apefile.txt")
>> apelist =  apefile.read()
>> for ape in apelist:
>>      print("one of the apes is " + ape)
>> apefile.close()
>>
>> The output from the script does not print the ape names, instead it
>> prints each letter in the file. For example:
>>
>> one of the apes is a
>> one of the apes is p
>> one of the apes is e
>>
>> What should I do instead to get something like
>>
>> one of the apes is Home sapiens
>> one of the apes is Pan troglodytes
>> one of the apes is Gorilla gorilla
>>   
>> John
> I'll start you off.
>
> with open("apefile.txt") as apefile:
>      for line in apefile:
>          doSomething(line)
>
> String methods and/or the csv module might be used here in doSomething(line), but I'll leave that to you so that you can learn.  If you get stuck please ask again, we don't bite :)
>
> Kindest regards.
>
> Mark Lawrence.
Mark,
Thanks for the reply. I looked back through the methods for strings. I 
also looked at the csv module, but I couldn't tell which one of those 
would help. The small .txt file does have commas, but with the weird 
form of listname = [1] , [2], [3], etc. for a .csv, I don't know how 
that would be read in a like a .csv. But now that I think about it, 
datObj2 in my script prints just the list elements, so maybe the 
'listname=' part wouldn't affect it...

Anyway, after reviewing string methods some more, I came up with this. 
If I understood your hint, the loop was supposed to somehow break up the 
long string that came from the apelist file, but it seemed that trying 
to use the split method in a loop wouldn't work, especially since one of 
my attempts started a list and then the interpreter said there were no 
split methods for list.

The new attempt gives me a list, now I have to figure out how to deal 
with unwanted quotation marks and spaces.

datFil =  open("apelist.txt")
datObj =  datFil.read()


datObj2 = datObj.replace('" ','')  #added this comment while writing 
this email: I guess I could have used 'datObj = datFil.read().replace('" 
','')'. Can you make two replacements in the same statement, for example 
'datObj=datFil.read().replace('" ','').replace('"','')?

datObj2 = datObj2.replace('"','')  #this was here to try to get rid of " 
that didn't have a subsequent space.

datObj2 = datObj2.split(',')

print(datObj2)

for i in datObj2:
     print("one of the apes is " + i)

datFil.close()

Output:
['Homo sapiens', ' Pan troglodytes', ' Gorilla gorilla']
one of the apes is Homo sapiens
one of the apes is  Pan troglodytes
one of the apes is  Gorilla gorilla

Per reply of Rick Johnson, I altered variable names to something generic.

Thanks for the prodding from the replies.

John


From rosuav at gmail.com  Sun Apr  9 17:52:56 2017
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2017 07:52:56 +1000
Subject: read in a list in a file to list
In-Reply-To: <820a9e29-25b4-baaf-c8cb-ff40b980e6ec@mail.usf.edu>
References: <5db12517-4c1a-f180-978f-533a632b8b36@mail.usf.edu>
 <mailman.0.1491676359.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <43baa05f-7cdf-4e58-a62a-1e917fea8219@googlegroups.com>
 <820a9e29-25b4-baaf-c8cb-ff40b980e6ec@mail.usf.edu>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmpSYStap6b+HQwWdtvaRSRbhqz0cFrBV3=+KnSJDKbCuA@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Apr 10, 2017 at 7:22 AM, john polo <jpolo at mail.usf.edu> wrote:
> Thanks for the reply. I looked back through the methods for strings. I also
> looked at the csv module, but I couldn't tell which one of those would help.
> The small .txt file does have commas, but with the weird form of listname =
> [1] , [2], [3], etc. for a .csv, I don't know how that would be read in a
> like a .csv. But now that I think about it, datObj2 in my script prints just
> the list elements, so maybe the 'listname=' part wouldn't affect it...
>

Hmm, interesting. Perhaps ast.literal_eval will help here? Parse off
the bit after the first equals sign and feed it to literal_eval.
You'll get back a tuple.

ChrisA


From greg.ewing at canterbury.ac.nz  Sun Apr  9 20:21:07 2017
From: greg.ewing at canterbury.ac.nz (Gregory Ewing)
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2017 12:21:07 +1200
Subject: Python and the need for speed
In-Reply-To: <mailman.5.1491710256.2951.python-list@python.org>
References: <768f9a44-5d90-4756-8a99-821253a491f8@googlegroups.com>
 <CAPTjJmrMWpzGd9Lf_sa-mscvqezY01U5kDCPRh07Nuivvxo8yg@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.5.1491710256.2951.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <el01fmF900sU1@mid.individual.net>

Chris Angelico wrote:

>>From that page:
> 
>>Other candidates for banishment from TurboPython include eval and exec.

I'm not convinced that removing eval and exec has anything to
do with making Python faster. There has to be a compiler
somewhere in the system, and making it invokable at run time
doesn't necessarily mean code that doesn't use that feature
has to run slower.

Heck, you can write an exec() function for C if you really
want. Run the C compiler in another process, dynamically
load the object file and call it. Doing that would be very
inefficient, but it wouldn't slow down the rest of your
C code.

My take on the idea of making Python less dynamic in order
to improve speed is that you'll end up with a language that,
while it may superficially resemble Python, doesn't
really feel like Python.

Boo is an example of that. It has a Python-like syntax, but
to get any speed advantage you need to add static type
delarations, and then it feels more like programming in
C# than Python. At that point, you wonder whether you might
just be better off writing your program in C# to begin with.

That's not to say this kind of approach isn't worth pursuing,
but like the JIT attempts mentioned in the article, it has
also been tried before, with varying levels of success.

-- 
Greg


From python at deborahswanson.net  Sun Apr  9 21:52:31 2017
From: python at deborahswanson.net (Deborah Swanson)
Date: Sun, 9 Apr 2017 18:52:31 -0700
Subject: Swiss Ephemeris
In-Reply-To: <49f767bc-8059-46bb-82b3-718dc8295b53@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <009c01d2b19d$1e76ce10$27b23dae@sambora>

Peter Henry wrote, on Sunday, April 09, 2017 10:53 AM
> 
> I have a package that has been altered to imported in to 
> python, however I tired to get is working but without success 
> I be missing something obvious
> 
> The Swiss Ephemeris enable planetary coordinate  to be 
> imported and used in your program
> 
> Files access https://pypi.python.org/pypi/pyswisseph
> 
> Many thanks in advance 
> 
> Peter 

I've also worked on the problem of getting sweph into Python and have
mostly struck out so far myself.

I found one reliable means to get sweph's planetary data into Python,
but it's more or less a cheat. Nonetheless, if you want to see how much
good it does you, try the Swiss Ephemeris Test Page at
http://www.astro.com/swisseph/swetest.htm. If you can successfully
formulate a query useful to your purposes, you can download a csv of
results, read it into Python, and work from there. Right now I'm working
on converting some Excel spreadsheets and Excel VBA I use into Python
and recoding it all, using the CSVs for jumping off points. That works
pretty well, except the times from swetest are off a bit and I haven't
figured out why. But I'm concentrating on getting all my VBA code ported
to Python, and will go back to getting bang on data from sweph after I
have my code done.

The first thing I tried was to get sweph's C source code into a free
IDE, but that whole project went down in flames. You can read bits and
pieces of that misadventure at the tail end of the "Python application
launcher (for Python code)" thread. I found sweph's C source code at
some link off "Programming interface to the Swiss Ephemeris" at
http://www.astro.com/swisseph/swephprg.htm (or maybe it was on
http://www.astro.com/swisseph/swephinfo_e.htm - I can't easily find it
now, but the download link is in one of those two pages somewhere.) 

Then I tried picking through sweph's C source code, attempting to
manually reproduce the logic and the calculations in Python. That was a
highly qualified semi-success because the times were still off, but it
essentially produces the most basic planetary data. The swetest output
CSVs were more complete however, and easy to read the planetary data
into Python from, so I'd pretty much abandoned efforts to "translate"
the C source code. And now, all my efforts to leverage the C source
code. Even if successful it would be a lot more time sunk into working
with a language other than Python, which I likely wouldn't have a use
for after this project is completed.

However, I have seen bits here and there on this list that are at least
interesting. Tim Chase mentioned in passing that he encapsulated C
source code in a class, which may bear looking into. Lutz Horn also gave
a link for building a Python module to add a C language library to
Python, which also might be worth checking out:
https://docs.python.org/3/extending/index.html (I changed the 2 to a 3
from the link he gave, but you can change it back to 2 if your working
in a build of Python 2.) 

But many thanks for your pypi link to pyswisseph, which I will check
out. I can reply to this thread after I give it a shot and tell you what
I think of it. But like I said earlier, that won't be until all my Excel
VBA code, which jumps off from the sweph bare planetary data, is ported
to Python and working. Could be awhile yet. And if pyswisseph doesn't
pan out, I'll likely work on refining the two methods I have for
producing the planetary data, both of which are only lacking precisely
accurate time data in my local time, and both are off by only 5-30
minutes. I easily limped along for years with my Excel spread sheets
using the swetest CSVs for input, even though my times then were more
than a day off.

Good luck! (and this venture is a goodly portion of luck...)

Deborah

PS. I've been using medical astrology to look ahead at my medical
condition for years in advance. And being off by a day or so doesn't
matter that much when you're looking at trends over the course of years
and decades. I also have a little software widget to look at the
planetary data in graphical chart form at any particular second, also
based on sweph, which has been quite astoundingly accurate in following
the rather complex kaleidoscope of my symptoms during the course of a
day. (Though it doesn't do you a bit of good if you forget to look!
Which is my entire motivation to get it encoded and available with a few
clicks.) And it is quite useful to know in advance what will be
happening when, and most importantly when it will stop. Knowledge is
power!

Caveat. This kind of precision and accuracy is only found in the
specific forms of astrology which relate to pure physical phenomena, and
most of what you see these days masquerading as astrology is pure hooey,
almost entirely invented on  a large scale in the Middle Ages and
flowered in the Renaissance. By pure physical phenomena, which is the
only phenomena that is at least debatably influenced by physical
planetary forces, I mean things like the moon's tides, sunspots, plant
and animal activity throughout the year, and supremely, the inner
workings of the human body, the first wholly Western medicine devised by
the ancient Greeks. (The ancient Greek physicians are an excellent
fallback if modern medicine is failing you - if you can find enough that
remains today of their art.)



From rantingrickjohnson at gmail.com  Sun Apr  9 22:04:07 2017
From: rantingrickjohnson at gmail.com (Rick Johnson)
Date: Sun, 9 Apr 2017 19:04:07 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Python and the need for speed
In-Reply-To: <58e9e519$0$1528$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
References: <768f9a44-5d90-4756-8a99-821253a491f8@googlegroups.com>
 <CAPTjJmrMWpzGd9Lf_sa-mscvqezY01U5kDCPRh07Nuivvxo8yg@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.5.1491710256.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <58e9e519$0$1528$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
Message-ID: <27652c6d-2cb4-4f0c-9400-6aa2a3f9f855@googlegroups.com>

On Sunday, April 9, 2017 at 2:39:18 AM UTC-5, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
> On Sun, 09 Apr 2017 13:57:28 +1000, Chris Angelico wrote:
>
> I don't know anyone who has ever said "this interpreter is
> too fast, can you make it run slower?"

LOL!

> [...]
>
> Well, maybe. As is pointed out many, many times, 99% of
> Python code avoids the sorts of extreme dynamism that keeps
> things slow. Lots of people would be satisfied with a
> language *really close* to Python that was ten or twenty
> times faster, even if it meant that you couldn't write code
> like this:
>
>
> answer = input("What's your name?")
> exec("name = %r" % answer)
> print(name)

Yeah, but then we'd be discriminating against Chris. Between
Python, Pike, Ook and MUDs, that pretty much defines the
extent of Chris' life.

> Even better would be if the compiler was smart enough to
> use the optimized, fast runtime when the dynamic features
> aren't used, and fall back on a slower implementation only
> when needed to support the more dynamic features.

Hmm, a "dynamic compiler" -- interesting!


From rantingrickjohnson at gmail.com  Sun Apr  9 22:23:04 2017
From: rantingrickjohnson at gmail.com (Rick Johnson)
Date: Sun, 9 Apr 2017 19:23:04 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Python and the need for speed
In-Reply-To: <mailman.9.1491728745.2951.python-list@python.org>
References: <768f9a44-5d90-4756-8a99-821253a491f8@googlegroups.com>
 <CAPTjJmrMWpzGd9Lf_sa-mscvqezY01U5kDCPRh07Nuivvxo8yg@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.5.1491710256.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <58e9e519$0$1528$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <CAPTjJmq4bCoXWryo5Jahh4he1_GP5LGjyKtJ1Mxs_XkNggi-6w@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.9.1491728745.2951.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <c9a9cfb4-3f76-469a-b6e2-00f0629844a1@googlegroups.com>

On Sunday, April 9, 2017 at 4:05:57 AM UTC-5, Chris Angelico wrote:
> On Sun, Apr 9, 2017 at 5:39 PM, Steven D'Aprano <steve at pearwood.info> wrote:

> > Even better would be if the compiler was smart enough to
> > use the optimized, fast runtime when the dynamic features
> > aren't used, and fall back on a slower implementation only
> > when needed to support the more dynamic features.
> 
> Yes. As long as it can know when the more dynamic features
> are being used - and that's the hard part. Remember, as
> soon as you have a single class implemented in Python, it
> could have a method injected into it without your
> knowledge. Can you detect that statically, or can you use
> the versioning of __dict__ to notice that something's been
> broken? What makes you fall back to the default
> implementation?

And all that sleuthing is slow as hell! The simple solution
is to use a declaration (aka: "strict" in JS) instead. The
programmer should be intelligent enough to know whether the
code is written in an "optimized manner", or not.

> The problem is the same thing that gives Python a lot of
> its beauty: that there's very little difference between
> built-in types and user-defined types. In CPython, types
> implemented in C are immutable, but other than that,
> they're basically the same thing as anything you make, and
> you can inspect them and stuff:
> 
> >>> int.__add__(5, 7)
> 12

Who the hell wants to call dunder methods? Self-flagellate
much?

> Personally, I think that would be a far better avenue to go
> down. I'm not sure it would be possible to retrofit this to
> Python (for example, there are guarantees about object
> identity that apply to *all objects*), but making the core
> immutable types into value-only non-objects wouldn't break
> a lot of code, and might provide for some significant
> performance improvements to string manipulation and
> arithmetic operations. But at some point, it's not really
> Python any more.

Well, go tell that to the type-hints shills!


From rosuav at gmail.com  Sun Apr  9 22:23:07 2017
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2017 12:23:07 +1000
Subject: Python and the need for speed
In-Reply-To: <27652c6d-2cb4-4f0c-9400-6aa2a3f9f855@googlegroups.com>
References: <768f9a44-5d90-4756-8a99-821253a491f8@googlegroups.com>
 <CAPTjJmrMWpzGd9Lf_sa-mscvqezY01U5kDCPRh07Nuivvxo8yg@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.5.1491710256.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <58e9e519$0$1528$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <27652c6d-2cb4-4f0c-9400-6aa2a3f9f855@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmq4xAt3rkONttzhqZ0byKhjrX=dHmDZn60jteOmkbia1w@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Apr 10, 2017 at 12:04 PM, Rick Johnson
<rantingrickjohnson at gmail.com> wrote:
>> Well, maybe. As is pointed out many, many times, 99% of
>> Python code avoids the sorts of extreme dynamism that keeps
>> things slow. Lots of people would be satisfied with a
>> language *really close* to Python that was ten or twenty
>> times faster, even if it meant that you couldn't write code
>> like this:
>>
>>
>> answer = input("What's your name?")
>> exec("name = %r" % answer)
>> print(name)
>
> Yeah, but then we'd be discriminating against Chris. Between
> Python, Pike, Ook and MUDs, that pretty much defines the
> extent of Chris' life.

Okay, I have a pretty thick skin, but this is getting a bit obnoxious.
Can you PLEASE post something that isn't just insulting me? Thanks.

ChrisA


From rantingrickjohnson at gmail.com  Sun Apr  9 22:40:55 2017
From: rantingrickjohnson at gmail.com (Rick Johnson)
Date: Sun, 9 Apr 2017 19:40:55 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Python and the need for speed
In-Reply-To: <W8vGA.379049$dI6.117383@fx31.am4>
References: <768f9a44-5d90-4756-8a99-821253a491f8@googlegroups.com>
 <CAPTjJmrMWpzGd9Lf_sa-mscvqezY01U5kDCPRh07Nuivvxo8yg@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.5.1491710256.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <W8vGA.379049$dI6.117383@fx31.am4>
Message-ID: <42aabf19-6054-4da4-8d7d-ea4802d2d3be@googlegroups.com>

On Sunday, April 9, 2017 at 1:34:39 PM UTC-5, bartc wrote:
> On 09/04/2017 04:57, Chris Angelico wrote:
> > On Sun, Apr 9, 2017 at 10:20 AM,  <breamoreboy at gmail.com> wrote:
> > > I've an idea that
> > > http://www.mos6581.org/python_need_for_speed is a week
> > > late for April Fool's but just in case I'm sure that some
> > > of you may wish to comment.
> 
> > In fact, extreme dynamism is baked deep into the language.
> > You'd have to make some fairly sweeping language changes
> > to get any real benefits from restricting things. There
> > are better ways to improve performance, which is why
> > statickification isn't really pursued.
> 
> I have my own interpreted language which I call 'dynamic',
> but compared with Python, code in it might as well be set
> in concrete.

Is this a personal toy, or something that you can share a
link to?

>  > Bye bye namedtuple.
> 
> I'm not completely sure what namedtuples are but they sound
> like some sort of record type. Presumably there is some
> reason why general attributes can't be used. The latter
> sound inefficient and so do the former if they depend on
> advanced dynamism to work.  Now, my language has records
> built-in, and they work extremely well, without using any
> of the dynamic features of Python other than dynamic
> variables as I said.  So such things can be made viable
> with the proper language support rather than relying on
> layers of what I consider unnecessarily esoteric features.
> Get the basics working first.

For all the hype about GvR's "supposed" time machine, we can
see that Python has suffered some major design flaws. And
since Python3000, feature creep has been churning into
overdrive. And not that all these features are bad, but like
you say, many of them seem to working around design faults
rather than repairing them. I mean, fiddlesticks[1], we've
already broken backwards compatibility in a *HUGE* way, so
why not just go back and fix these inherent flaws once and
for all, huh? And it's not like Python can wear the white
dress again -- for one thing, she's put on far too many
pounds since then, and for the other, well kids, you just
can't un-pop a cherry!

[1] I _really_ wanted to use a more powerful word there.


From rantingrickjohnson at gmail.com  Sun Apr  9 23:00:22 2017
From: rantingrickjohnson at gmail.com (Rick Johnson)
Date: Sun, 9 Apr 2017 20:00:22 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Python and the need for speed
In-Reply-To: <el01fmF900sU1@mid.individual.net>
References: <768f9a44-5d90-4756-8a99-821253a491f8@googlegroups.com>
 <CAPTjJmrMWpzGd9Lf_sa-mscvqezY01U5kDCPRh07Nuivvxo8yg@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.5.1491710256.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <el01fmF900sU1@mid.individual.net>
Message-ID: <8c446c0f-6e74-4aab-8986-066724d5c731@googlegroups.com>

On Sunday, April 9, 2017 at 7:21:21 PM UTC-5, Gregory Ewing wrote:
> My take on the idea of making Python less dynamic in order
> to improve speed is that you'll end up with a language
> that, while it may superficially resemble Python, doesn't
> really feel like Python.  Boo is an example of that. It has
> a Python-like syntax, but to get any speed advantage you
> need to add static type delarations, and then it feels more
> like programming in C# than Python. At that point, you
> wonder whether you might just be better off writing your
> program in C# to begin with.

Which is exactly why i keep warning about how dangerous
these type-hints are. If these dirty little type-hint
syntaxes start propagating in the wild, soon, we'll all be
writing code that _looks_ like C, but executes like
_python_. At that point, what would be the advantage of
writing Python code?

I don't write Python code because i like how slow it
executes, no, i write Python code because (first and
foremost) i like how clean the syntax is; because i like the
flexibility of interpreted languages; because i enjoy rapid
development; because i like introspection; because i like
batteries included. These are the fundamental attributes
that make Python so special. Sure, there are a few other
high level interpreted languages out there (Ruby springs to
mind) but none of them are as enjoyable (to me, and many
others here) as Python. Even with all it's warts, this
lanague has (at least historically), been very special to
me.

I beginning to think that the gaining interest in creating
derived python languages is a direct result of the type-
hints fiasco. But the community fissure began when Py3000
was released. Too many voices in this community are being
ignored.


From rantingrickjohnson at gmail.com  Sun Apr  9 23:19:15 2017
From: rantingrickjohnson at gmail.com (Rick Johnson)
Date: Sun, 9 Apr 2017 20:19:15 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Python and the need for speed
In-Reply-To: <768f9a44-5d90-4756-8a99-821253a491f8@googlegroups.com>
References: <768f9a44-5d90-4756-8a99-821253a491f8@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <d98e18d2-19a6-4d59-a2bf-74c5a9cb3536@googlegroups.com>

On Saturday, April 8, 2017 at 7:20:35 PM UTC-5, bream... at gmail.com wrote:
> I've an idea that
> http://www.mos6581.org/python_need_for_speed is a week late
> for April Fool's but just in case I'm sure that some of you
> may wish to comment.

Might be a bit too late to dub this "April fools", but never
too late to dub it "April fool's gold".

Mark, you and everyone else here needs to confront the
_real_ issue. Obviously there is a huge sub-culture within
the Python community that is totally pissed about (1) the
silly backwards compatable breaks of python3000, and (2)
this type-hints nightmare. And while we could have
overlooked python3000 (eventually), this type-hints thing is
undermining the very fundamantal nature of Python. Face it
Mark, by intertaining these "python forks" you (and others)
are acting out in a passive agressive manner because your
voices are being ignored by the Python-dev royalty. The true
enemy here is not Python's slow execution speed, no, it is
type- hints. Therefore, we must join together and stop this
type- hints mess before it propagates in the wild and
destroys this language. I can assure you, there has never
been a feature more threating to the survival of this
language than type-hints. Period.



From Irv at furrypants.com  Sun Apr  9 23:58:44 2017
From: Irv at furrypants.com (Irv Kalb)
Date: Sun, 9 Apr 2017 20:58:44 -0700
Subject: Need help with getting Key, Value out of dicts in lists
In-Reply-To: <CA+nSE3_rZnQQeuC7uMaHRuoyvqKdsC+AeNyL+4_sqLVF8ajMKw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CA+nSE38r0OSDFvJ8ETPFi2TrGFKemwnEpOT3_xLUx9T0RG+Q1Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <AE759999-3D74-4CE2-913D-A25632B7FCEC@furrypants.com>
 <BB7111CC-7FC8-46BA-95D9-EB0BDB2B39B3@furrypants.com>
 <CA+nSE3_rZnQQeuC7uMaHRuoyvqKdsC+AeNyL+4_sqLVF8ajMKw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <889F8A73-CE3E-487F-A0A5-05CCE1E81546@furrypants.com>

OK,  I did't know if you were able to re-organize the data.  I know nothing about AWS load balancers, but it's unfortunate that the data is laid out in a way that makes dealing with it difficult.

But it sounds like you have worked it out.  Best of luck.

Irv


> On Apr 9, 2017, at 2:21 PM, Kenton Brede <kbrede at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> Thanks for the response Irv.  On one level I'm glad to know that someone
> more knowledgeable than myself sees this data structure as difficult. :)  I
> was thinking it was an easy problem to solve.  Unfortunately that is the
> structure I have to use.
> 
> The data comes from pulling back tag information on AWS load balancers.  So
> each list within the overall parent list are tags from one load balancer.
> Each dict pair inside the inner lists, is one tag.  To simplify, below is a
> representation of one load balancer and two tags.  The parent list contains
> multiple inner lists, each for a single load balancer.
> 
> [
>    [
>        {
>            "Value": "20176783-181622543367489",
>            "Key": "Resource_group_id"
>        },
>        {
>            "Value": "shibboleth-prd-alb",
>            "Key": "Name"
>        }
>    ],
> ]
> 
> I have an ugly solution of 'for loops' and 'if statements' that works,
> which uses a different path to get to the information.  I was just hoping
> to be more direct by matching the 'Value' of  'Key: Resource_group_id' and
> pull back the 'Value' of 'Key: Name' and other tags as needed.
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Kenton Brede
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On Sat, Apr 8, 2017 at 11:29 PM, Irv Kalb <Irv at furrypants.com> wrote:
> 
>> [ Sorry, forgot the important stuff! ]
>> 
>> What you want to do is tricky because your data structure is difficult to
>> deal with.  My guess is that it has to do with a misconception about how a
>> Python dictionary works. Yes, it is a series of key/value pairs, but not
>> the way you have it.   It looks like you put together dictionaries where
>> each dictionary has a 'Value' and a 'Key'.
>> 
>> Instead, _each_ item in a dictionary is a key value pair. The key is
>> typically a string, and the value is obviously some value associated with
>> that key.  For example, if you have the ability to rebuild your data a
>> different way, it looks like it would be better to deal with it something
>> like this:
>> 
>> aList = [
>>           {'Name':'shibboleth-prd', 'Billing':'kmvu',
>> 'Resource_group_id': '20179204-181622543367489'},
>>           {'Name':'shibboleth-tst', 'Resource_group_id':'20172857-
>> 152037106154311'}
>>           ]
>> 
>> This is a list of dictionaries.  However, I'm not sure what you are trying
>> to do with this data.  I'm guessing that you want to match a resource group
>> id, and if you find it, print the name and the billing info if they exist.
>> If so, you may want something like this (untested):
>> 
>> def printInfo(thisGroupID):
>>   for thisDict in aList:    # loop through all dictionaries in the list
>>        if thisGroupID == aList['Resource_group_id']:
>>           if 'Name' in thisDict:   # if thisDict has a key called 'Name'
>>               print ('Name is', thisDict['Dict'])
>>           if 'Billing' in thisDict:   #  if thisDict has a key called
>> 'Billing'
>>               print ('Billing is', thisDict['Billing'])
>> 
>> Hope this helps,
>> 
>> Irv
>>> On Apr 8, 2017, at 9:04 PM, Irv Kalb <Irv at furrypants.com> wrote:
>>> 
>>> What you want to do is tricky because your data structure is difficult
>> to deal with.  My guess is that it has to do with a misconception about how
>> a Python dictionary works. Yes, it is a series of key/value pairs, but not
>> the way you have it.   It looks like you put together dictionaries where
>> each dictionary has a 'Value' and a 'Key'.
>>> 
>>> Instead, _each_ item in a dictionary is a key value pair. The key is
>> typically a string, and the value is obviously some value associated with
>> that key.  For example, if you have the ability to rebuild your data a
>> different way, it looks like it would be better to deal with it something
>> like this:
>>> 
>>> aList = [
>>>           {'Name':'shibboleth-prd', 'Billing':'kmvu',
>> 'Resource_group_id': '20179204-181622543367489'},
>>>           {'Name':'shibboleth-tst', 'Resource_group_id':'20172857-
>> 152037106154311'}
>>>           ]
>>> 
>>> This is a list of dictionaries.  However, I'm not sure what you are
>> trying to do with this data.  I'm guessing that you want to match a
>> resource group id, and if you find it, print the name and the billing info
>> if they exist.  If so, you may want something like this (untested):
>>> 
>>> def printInfo(thisGroupID):
>>>   for thisDict in aList:    # loop through all dictionaries in the list
>>>      if thisGroupID == aList['Resource_group_id']:
>>>           if 'Name' in thisDict:   # if thisDict has a key called 'Name'
>>>               print ('Name is', thisDict['Dict'])
>>>           if 'Billing' in thisDict:   #  if thisDict has a key called
>> 'Billing'
>>>               print ('Billing is', thisDict['Billing'])
>>> 
>>> Hope this helps,
>>> 
>>> Irv
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>>> On Apr 8, 2017, at 5:55 PM, Kenton Brede <kbrede at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> This is an example of the data I'm working with.  The key/value pairs
>> may
>>>> come in any order. There are some keys like the 'Resource_group_id' key
>> and
>>>> the 'Name' key which will always be present, but other lists may have
>>>> unique keys.
>>>> 
>>>> alist = [[{u'Value': 'shibboleth-prd', u'Key': 'Name'}, {u'Value':
>> 'kvmu',
>>>> u'Key': 'Billing'},
>>>>          {u'Value': '20179204-181622543367489', u'Key':
>>>> 'Resource_group_id'}],
>>>>         [{u'Value': '20172857-152037106154311', u'Key':
>>>> 'Resource_group_id'},
>>>>          {u'Value': 'shibboleth-tst', u'Key': 'Name'}]]
>>>> 
>>>> What I want to do is something along the lines of:
>>>> 
>>>> for a in alist:
>>>>  if a['Resource_group_id'] == '01234829-2041523815431':
>>>>      print the Value of 'Name'
>>>>      print the Value of 'Billing'
>>>> 
>>>> I've found I can do the following, to print the value of 'Name' but that
>>>> only works if the 'Resource_group_id' key is the first key in the list
>> and
>>>> the 'Name' key is in the second slot.  If each list contained the same
>>>> keys, I could probably sort the keys and use [num] to pull back values,
>> but
>>>> they don't.
>>>> 
>>>> for a in alist:
>>>>  if a[0]['Key'] == 'Resource_group_id' and a[0]['Value'] ==
>>>> '20172857-152037106154311':
>>>>      print a[1]['Value']
>>>> 
>>>> There has to be a way to do this but I've been pounding away at this for
>>>> hours.  Any help appreciated.  I'm new to Python and not a programmer,
>> so
>>>> go easy on me. :)
>>>> --
>>>> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
>>>> 
>>> 
>> 
>> --
>> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
>> 
> -- 
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
> 



From rantingrickjohnson at gmail.com  Mon Apr 10 00:00:11 2017
From: rantingrickjohnson at gmail.com (Rick Johnson)
Date: Sun, 9 Apr 2017 21:00:11 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Swiss Ephemeris
In-Reply-To: <mailman.13.1491789153.2951.python-list@python.org>
References: <49f767bc-8059-46bb-82b3-718dc8295b53@googlegroups.com>
 <009c01d2b19d$1e76ce10$27b23dae@sambora>
 <mailman.13.1491789153.2951.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <1710f867-da07-4c52-9ff5-7b349dd8e485@googlegroups.com>

On Sunday, April 9, 2017 at 8:52:44 PM UTC-5, Deborah Swanson wrote:
> PS. I've been using medical astrology to look ahead at my
> medical condition for years in advance. And being off by a
> day or so doesn't matter that much when you're looking at
> trends over the course of years and decades. I also have a
> little software widget to look at the planetary data in
> graphical chart form at any particular second, also based
> on sweph, which has been quite astoundingly accurate in
> following the rather complex kaleidoscope of my symptoms
> during the course of a day. (Though it doesn't do you a bit
> of good if you forget to look! Which is my entire
> motivation to get it encoded and available with a few
> clicks.) And it is quite useful to know in advance what
> will be happening when, and most importantly when it will
> stop. Knowledge is power!

It's simply amazing what technology can do these days. And
with medical diagnosis now just a few clicks away, someone
really should tell those medical students to stop wasting
time and money at university.

> Caveat. This kind of precision and accuracy is only found
> in the specific forms of astrology which relate to pure
> physical phenomena, and most of what you see these days
> masquerading as astrology is pure hooey, almost entirely
> invented on a large scale in the Middle Ages and flowered
> in the Renaissance.

Whadda coinicidence, as did alchemy!

> By pure physical phenomena, which is the only phenomena
> that is at least debatably influenced by physical planetary
> forces, I mean things like the moon's tides, sunspots,
> plant and animal activity throughout the year, and
> supremely, the inner workings of the human body, the first
> wholly Western medicine devised by the ancient Greeks. (The
> ancient Greek physicians are an excellent fallback if
> modern medicine is failing you - if you can find enough
> that remains today of their art.)

Yeah, just uh, be sure to avoid te hemlock, mmmkay? ;-)



From python at deborahswanson.net  Mon Apr 10 01:29:59 2017
From: python at deborahswanson.net (Deborah Swanson)
Date: Sun, 9 Apr 2017 22:29:59 -0700
Subject: Swiss Ephemeris
In-Reply-To: <1710f867-da07-4c52-9ff5-7b349dd8e485@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <000001d2b1bb$7f8e7950$27b23dae@sambora>

Fully recognizing that most of what you wrote was tongue-in-cheek, I
just want to say that regardless of the wonders of modern medicine, it's
a pity they learn so little about successful medicines other than their
own. In other academic scientific disciplines such as physics and
chemistry it's not uncommon to see history of science courses in the
curriculum. But not in medicine. I learned what I know about ancient
Greek science from a university physics professor, though I doubt he
would ever have guessed that one of his students would someday breathe
new life into that ancient science by attempting to ressurrect it. The
great ancients were no less endowed with intelligence than we are, they
simply directed it to different ends.


Rick Johnson wrote, on Sunday, April 09, 2017 9:00 PM
> 
> On Sunday, April 9, 2017 at 8:52:44 PM UTC-5, Deborah Swanson wrote:
> > PS. I've been using medical astrology to look ahead at my medical 
> > condition for years in advance. And being off by a day or 
> so doesn't 
> > matter that much when you're looking at trends over the course of 
> > years and decades. I also have a little software widget to 
> look at the 
> > planetary data in graphical chart form at any particular 
> second, also 
> > based on sweph, which has been quite astoundingly accurate in
> > following the rather complex kaleidoscope of my symptoms
> > during the course of a day. (Though it doesn't do you a bit
> > of good if you forget to look! Which is my entire
> > motivation to get it encoded and available with a few
> > clicks.) And it is quite useful to know in advance what
> > will be happening when, and most importantly when it will
> > stop. Knowledge is power!
> 
> It's simply amazing what technology can do these days. And
> with medical diagnosis now just a few clicks away, someone 
> really should tell those medical students to stop wasting 
> time and money at university.
> 
> > Caveat. This kind of precision and accuracy is only found
> > in the specific forms of astrology which relate to pure physical 
> > phenomena, and most of what you see these days masquerading as 
> > astrology is pure hooey, almost entirely invented on a 
> large scale in 
> > the Middle Ages and flowered in the Renaissance.
> 
> Whadda coinicidence, as did alchemy!
> 
> > By pure physical phenomena, which is the only phenomena
> > that is at least debatably influenced by physical planetary 
> forces, I 
> > mean things like the moon's tides, sunspots, plant and 
> animal activity 
> > throughout the year, and supremely, the inner workings of the human 
> > body, the first wholly Western medicine devised by the 
> ancient Greeks. 
> > (The ancient Greek physicians are an excellent fallback if
> > modern medicine is failing you - if you can find enough
> > that remains today of their art.)
> 
> Yeah, just uh, be sure to avoid te hemlock, mmmkay? ;-)
> 
> -- 
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
> 



From prathamesh.nimkar at gmail.com  Mon Apr 10 04:30:00 2017
From: prathamesh.nimkar at gmail.com (Prathamesh)
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2017 01:30:00 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Improve Python + Influxdb import performance
In-Reply-To: <634caa93-f512-43db-9084-c4fb361e9366@googlegroups.com>
References: <104d49b4-da8c-4b23-a520-3042c9d91a3d@googlegroups.com>
 <CAEfz+TwY2MifjckPuRyEEw8FEBnGX3V0G36h43RV775PvKUVoA@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.83.1491236547.2961.python-list@python.org>
 <634caa93-f512-43db-9084-c4fb361e9366@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <7f5716ec-710a-43ca-8049-e40bd6754540@googlegroups.com>

Hi

I've installed Jython 2.7 and was able to get weblogic running as a Jython 2.7 module following
https://technology.amis.nl/2015/10/04/how-to-use-wlst-as-a-jython-2-7-module/

I got the requests module 2.7 installed as well

But am facing an issue when invoking it
related to SSL certificates
and to stop those errors I think you need utillib2/utillib3
and that has dependencies
one of which is cryptography - which is a real pain to install

Any pointers on this
or easier way to install this?
I'm running Windows 2008R2

Also my pip install doesn't work
I get geteid error

Please let me know

Thanks
P

On Tuesday, April 4, 2017 at 6:51:28 PM UTC+5:30, Prathamesh wrote:
> Hi Inada
> 
> Thank you for your response
> Weblogic works on Jython 2.2.1
> and I think the Python requests module requires >= python 2.6
> 
> Please correct me if I'm wrong
> or if there is another way to get this to work
> 
> Thanks
> P
> 
> On Monday, April 3, 2017 at 9:52:38 PM UTC+5:30, INADA Naoki wrote:
> > You can reuse connection, instead of creating for each request. (HTTP
> > keep-alive).
> > 
> > On Tue, Apr 4, 2017 at 1:11 AM, Prathamesh <prathamesh.nimkar at gmail.com> wrote:
> > > Hello World
> > >
> > > The following script is an extract from
> > >
> > > https://github.com/RittmanMead/obi-metrics-agent/blob/master/obi-metrics-agent.py
> > >
> > > <<Code begins>>
> > >
> > > import calendar, time
> > > import sys
> > > import getopt
> > >
> > > print '---------------------------------------'
> > >
> > > # Check the arguments to this script are as expected.
> > > # argv[0] is script name.
> > > argLen = len(sys.argv)
> > > if argLen -1 < 2:
> > >     print "ERROR: got ", argLen -1, " args, must be at least two."
> > >     print '$FMW_HOME/oracle_common/common/bin/wlst.sh obi-metrics-agent.py  <AdminUserName> <AdminPassword> [<AdminServer_t3_url>] [<Carbon|InfluxDB>] [<target host>] [<target port>] [targetDB influx db>'
> > >     exit()
> > >
> > > outputFormat='CSV'
> > > url='t3://localhost:7001'
> > > targetHost='localhost'
> > > targetDB='obi'
> > > targetPort='8086'
> > >
> > > try:
> > >     wls_user = sys.argv[1]
> > >     wls_pw = sys.argv[2]
> > >     url  = sys.argv[3]
> > >     outputFormat=sys.argv[4]
> > >     targetHost=sys.argv[5]
> > >     targetPort=sys.argv[6]
> > >     targetDB=sys.argv[7]
> > > except:
> > >     print ''
> > >
> > > print wls_user, wls_pw,url, outputFormat,targetHost,targetPort,targetDB
> > >
> > > now_epoch = calendar.timegm(time.gmtime())*1000
> > >
> > > if outputFormat=='InfluxDB':
> > >     import httplib
> > >     influx_msgs=''
> > >
> > > connect(wls_user,wls_pw,url)
> > > results = displayMetricTables('Oracle_BI*','dms_cProcessInfo')
> > > for table in results:
> > >     tableName = table.get('Table')
> > >     rows = table.get('Rows')
> > >     rowCollection = rows.values()
> > >     iter = rowCollection.iterator()
> > >     while iter.hasNext():
> > >         row = iter.next()
> > >         rowType = row.getCompositeType()
> > >         keys = rowType.keySet()
> > >         keyIter = keys.iterator()
> > >         inst_name= row.get('Name').replace(' ','-')
> > >         try:
> > >             server= row.get('Servername').replace(' ','-').replace('/','_')
> > >         except:
> > >             try:
> > >                 server= row.get('ServerName').replace(' ','-').replace('/','_')
> > >             except:
> > >                 server='unknown'
> > >         try:
> > >             host= row.get('Host').replace(' ','-')
> > >         except:
> > >             host=''
> > >         while keyIter.hasNext():
> > >             columnName = keyIter.next()
> > >             value = row.get(columnName )
> > >             if columnName.find('.value')>0:
> > >                 metric_name=columnName.replace('.value','')
> > >                 if value is not None:
> > >                     if value != 0:
> > >                         if outputFormat=='InfluxDB':
> > >                             influx_msg= ('%s,server=%s,host=%s,metric_group=%s,metric_instance=%s value=%s %s') % (metric_name,server,host,tableName,inst_name,  value,now_epoch*1000000)
> > >                             influx_msgs+='\n%s' % influx_msg
> > >                             conn = httplib.HTTPConnection('%s:%s' % (targetHost,targetPort))
> > >                             ## TODO pretty sure should be urlencoding this ...
> > >                             a=conn.request("POST", ("/write?db=%s" % targetDB), influx_msg)
> > >                             r=conn.getresponse()
> > >
> > > <<Code ends>>
> > >
> > > It currently takes about 3 minutes to execute completely and I was thinking of a way to make it run faster
> > >
> > > Data alignment (Influx line protocol) & data loading - done together takes up most of the time
> > >
> > > Influxdb is currently loading data at around 3 points/second
> > >
> > > Any way to align the data separately, store it and load it as a batch?
> > >
> > > I feel that would help improve performance
> > >
> > > Please let me know if you have any pointers
> > > I can send the data sheet if required
> > >
> > > Thanks P
> > > --
> > > https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
> 
> 
> 
> On Monday, April 3, 2017 at 9:52:38 PM UTC+5:30, INADA Naoki wrote:
> > You can reuse connection, instead of creating for each request. (HTTP
> > keep-alive).
> > 
> > On Tue, Apr 4, 2017 at 1:11 AM, Prathamesh <prathamesh.nimkar at gmail.com> wrote:
> > > Hello World
> > >
> > > The following script is an extract from
> > >
> > > https://github.com/RittmanMead/obi-metrics-agent/blob/master/obi-metrics-agent.py
> > >
> > > <<Code begins>>
> > >
> > > import calendar, time
> > > import sys
> > > import getopt
> > >
> > > print '---------------------------------------'
> > >
> > > # Check the arguments to this script are as expected.
> > > # argv[0] is script name.
> > > argLen = len(sys.argv)
> > > if argLen -1 < 2:
> > >     print "ERROR: got ", argLen -1, " args, must be at least two."
> > >     print '$FMW_HOME/oracle_common/common/bin/wlst.sh obi-metrics-agent.py  <AdminUserName> <AdminPassword> [<AdminServer_t3_url>] [<Carbon|InfluxDB>] [<target host>] [<target port>] [targetDB influx db>'
> > >     exit()
> > >
> > > outputFormat='CSV'
> > > url='t3://localhost:7001'
> > > targetHost='localhost'
> > > targetDB='obi'
> > > targetPort='8086'
> > >
> > > try:
> > >     wls_user = sys.argv[1]
> > >     wls_pw = sys.argv[2]
> > >     url  = sys.argv[3]
> > >     outputFormat=sys.argv[4]
> > >     targetHost=sys.argv[5]
> > >     targetPort=sys.argv[6]
> > >     targetDB=sys.argv[7]
> > > except:
> > >     print ''
> > >
> > > print wls_user, wls_pw,url, outputFormat,targetHost,targetPort,targetDB
> > >
> > > now_epoch = calendar.timegm(time.gmtime())*1000
> > >
> > > if outputFormat=='InfluxDB':
> > >     import httplib
> > >     influx_msgs=''
> > >
> > > connect(wls_user,wls_pw,url)
> > > results = displayMetricTables('Oracle_BI*','dms_cProcessInfo')
> > > for table in results:
> > >     tableName = table.get('Table')
> > >     rows = table.get('Rows')
> > >     rowCollection = rows.values()
> > >     iter = rowCollection.iterator()
> > >     while iter.hasNext():
> > >         row = iter.next()
> > >         rowType = row.getCompositeType()
> > >         keys = rowType.keySet()
> > >         keyIter = keys.iterator()
> > >         inst_name= row.get('Name').replace(' ','-')
> > >         try:
> > >             server= row.get('Servername').replace(' ','-').replace('/','_')
> > >         except:
> > >             try:
> > >                 server= row.get('ServerName').replace(' ','-').replace('/','_')
> > >             except:
> > >                 server='unknown'
> > >         try:
> > >             host= row.get('Host').replace(' ','-')
> > >         except:
> > >             host=''
> > >         while keyIter.hasNext():
> > >             columnName = keyIter.next()
> > >             value = row.get(columnName )
> > >             if columnName.find('.value')>0:
> > >                 metric_name=columnName.replace('.value','')
> > >                 if value is not None:
> > >                     if value != 0:
> > >                         if outputFormat=='InfluxDB':
> > >                             influx_msg= ('%s,server=%s,host=%s,metric_group=%s,metric_instance=%s value=%s %s') % (metric_name,server,host,tableName,inst_name,  value,now_epoch*1000000)
> > >                             influx_msgs+='\n%s' % influx_msg
> > >                             conn = httplib.HTTPConnection('%s:%s' % (targetHost,targetPort))
> > >                             ## TODO pretty sure should be urlencoding this ...
> > >                             a=conn.request("POST", ("/write?db=%s" % targetDB), influx_msg)
> > >                             r=conn.getresponse()
> > >
> > > <<Code ends>>
> > >
> > > It currently takes about 3 minutes to execute completely and I was thinking of a way to make it run faster
> > >
> > > Data alignment (Influx line protocol) & data loading - done together takes up most of the time
> > >
> > > Influxdb is currently loading data at around 3 points/second
> > >
> > > Any way to align the data separately, store it and load it as a batch?
> > >
> > > I feel that would help improve performance
> > >
> > > Please let me know if you have any pointers
> > > I can send the data sheet if required
> > >
> > > Thanks P
> > > --
> > > https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
> 
> 
> 
> On Monday, April 3, 2017 at 9:52:38 PM UTC+5:30, INADA Naoki wrote:
> > You can reuse connection, instead of creating for each request. (HTTP
> > keep-alive).
> > 
> > On Tue, Apr 4, 2017 at 1:11 AM, Prathamesh <prathamesh.nimkar at gmail.com> wrote:
> > > Hello World
> > >
> > > The following script is an extract from
> > >
> > > https://github.com/RittmanMead/obi-metrics-agent/blob/master/obi-metrics-agent.py
> > >
> > > <<Code begins>>
> > >
> > > import calendar, time
> > > import sys
> > > import getopt
> > >
> > > print '---------------------------------------'
> > >
> > > # Check the arguments to this script are as expected.
> > > # argv[0] is script name.
> > > argLen = len(sys.argv)
> > > if argLen -1 < 2:
> > >     print "ERROR: got ", argLen -1, " args, must be at least two."
> > >     print '$FMW_HOME/oracle_common/common/bin/wlst.sh obi-metrics-agent.py  <AdminUserName> <AdminPassword> [<AdminServer_t3_url>] [<Carbon|InfluxDB>] [<target host>] [<target port>] [targetDB influx db>'
> > >     exit()
> > >
> > > outputFormat='CSV'
> > > url='t3://localhost:7001'
> > > targetHost='localhost'
> > > targetDB='obi'
> > > targetPort='8086'
> > >
> > > try:
> > >     wls_user = sys.argv[1]
> > >     wls_pw = sys.argv[2]
> > >     url  = sys.argv[3]
> > >     outputFormat=sys.argv[4]
> > >     targetHost=sys.argv[5]
> > >     targetPort=sys.argv[6]
> > >     targetDB=sys.argv[7]
> > > except:
> > >     print ''
> > >
> > > print wls_user, wls_pw,url, outputFormat,targetHost,targetPort,targetDB
> > >
> > > now_epoch = calendar.timegm(time.gmtime())*1000
> > >
> > > if outputFormat=='InfluxDB':
> > >     import httplib
> > >     influx_msgs=''
> > >
> > > connect(wls_user,wls_pw,url)
> > > results = displayMetricTables('Oracle_BI*','dms_cProcessInfo')
> > > for table in results:
> > >     tableName = table.get('Table')
> > >     rows = table.get('Rows')
> > >     rowCollection = rows.values()
> > >     iter = rowCollection.iterator()
> > >     while iter.hasNext():
> > >         row = iter.next()
> > >         rowType = row.getCompositeType()
> > >         keys = rowType.keySet()
> > >         keyIter = keys.iterator()
> > >         inst_name= row.get('Name').replace(' ','-')
> > >         try:
> > >             server= row.get('Servername').replace(' ','-').replace('/','_')
> > >         except:
> > >             try:
> > >                 server= row.get('ServerName').replace(' ','-').replace('/','_')
> > >             except:
> > >                 server='unknown'
> > >         try:
> > >             host= row.get('Host').replace(' ','-')
> > >         except:
> > >             host=''
> > >         while keyIter.hasNext():
> > >             columnName = keyIter.next()
> > >             value = row.get(columnName )
> > >             if columnName.find('.value')>0:
> > >                 metric_name=columnName.replace('.value','')
> > >                 if value is not None:
> > >                     if value != 0:
> > >                         if outputFormat=='InfluxDB':
> > >                             influx_msg= ('%s,server=%s,host=%s,metric_group=%s,metric_instance=%s value=%s %s') % (metric_name,server,host,tableName,inst_name,  value,now_epoch*1000000)
> > >                             influx_msgs+='\n%s' % influx_msg
> > >                             conn = httplib.HTTPConnection('%s:%s' % (targetHost,targetPort))
> > >                             ## TODO pretty sure should be urlencoding this ...
> > >                             a=conn.request("POST", ("/write?db=%s" % targetDB), influx_msg)
> > >                             r=conn.getresponse()
> > >
> > > <<Code ends>>
> > >
> > > It currently takes about 3 minutes to execute completely and I was thinking of a way to make it run faster
> > >
> > > Data alignment (Influx line protocol) & data loading - done together takes up most of the time
> > >
> > > Influxdb is currently loading data at around 3 points/second
> > >
> > > Any way to align the data separately, store it and load it as a batch?
> > >
> > > I feel that would help improve performance
> > >
> > > Please let me know if you have any pointers
> > > I can send the data sheet if required
> > >
> > > Thanks P
> > > --
> > > https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
> 
> 
> 
> On Monday, April 3, 2017 at 9:52:38 PM UTC+5:30, INADA Naoki wrote:
> > You can reuse connection, instead of creating for each request. (HTTP
> > keep-alive).
> > 
> > On Tue, Apr 4, 2017 at 1:11 AM, Prathamesh <prathamesh.nimkar at gmail.com> wrote:
> > > Hello World
> > >
> > > The following script is an extract from
> > >
> > > https://github.com/RittmanMead/obi-metrics-agent/blob/master/obi-metrics-agent.py
> > >
> > > <<Code begins>>
> > >
> > > import calendar, time
> > > import sys
> > > import getopt
> > >
> > > print '---------------------------------------'
> > >
> > > # Check the arguments to this script are as expected.
> > > # argv[0] is script name.
> > > argLen = len(sys.argv)
> > > if argLen -1 < 2:
> > >     print "ERROR: got ", argLen -1, " args, must be at least two."
> > >     print '$FMW_HOME/oracle_common/common/bin/wlst.sh obi-metrics-agent.py  <AdminUserName> <AdminPassword> [<AdminServer_t3_url>] [<Carbon|InfluxDB>] [<target host>] [<target port>] [targetDB influx db>'
> > >     exit()
> > >
> > > outputFormat='CSV'
> > > url='t3://localhost:7001'
> > > targetHost='localhost'
> > > targetDB='obi'
> > > targetPort='8086'
> > >
> > > try:
> > >     wls_user = sys.argv[1]
> > >     wls_pw = sys.argv[2]
> > >     url  = sys.argv[3]
> > >     outputFormat=sys.argv[4]
> > >     targetHost=sys.argv[5]
> > >     targetPort=sys.argv[6]
> > >     targetDB=sys.argv[7]
> > > except:
> > >     print ''
> > >
> > > print wls_user, wls_pw,url, outputFormat,targetHost,targetPort,targetDB
> > >
> > > now_epoch = calendar.timegm(time.gmtime())*1000
> > >
> > > if outputFormat=='InfluxDB':
> > >     import httplib
> > >     influx_msgs=''
> > >
> > > connect(wls_user,wls_pw,url)
> > > results = displayMetricTables('Oracle_BI*','dms_cProcessInfo')
> > > for table in results:
> > >     tableName = table.get('Table')
> > >     rows = table.get('Rows')
> > >     rowCollection = rows.values()
> > >     iter = rowCollection.iterator()
> > >     while iter.hasNext():
> > >         row = iter.next()
> > >         rowType = row.getCompositeType()
> > >         keys = rowType.keySet()
> > >         keyIter = keys.iterator()
> > >         inst_name= row.get('Name').replace(' ','-')
> > >         try:
> > >             server= row.get('Servername').replace(' ','-').replace('/','_')
> > >         except:
> > >             try:
> > >                 server= row.get('ServerName').replace(' ','-').replace('/','_')
> > >             except:
> > >                 server='unknown'
> > >         try:
> > >             host= row.get('Host').replace(' ','-')
> > >         except:
> > >             host=''
> > >         while keyIter.hasNext():
> > >             columnName = keyIter.next()
> > >             value = row.get(columnName )
> > >             if columnName.find('.value')>0:
> > >                 metric_name=columnName.replace('.value','')
> > >                 if value is not None:
> > >                     if value != 0:
> > >                         if outputFormat=='InfluxDB':
> > >                             influx_msg= ('%s,server=%s,host=%s,metric_group=%s,metric_instance=%s value=%s %s') % (metric_name,server,host,tableName,inst_name,  value,now_epoch*1000000)
> > >                             influx_msgs+='\n%s' % influx_msg
> > >                             conn = httplib.HTTPConnection('%s:%s' % (targetHost,targetPort))
> > >                             ## TODO pretty sure should be urlencoding this ...
> > >                             a=conn.request("POST", ("/write?db=%s" % targetDB), influx_msg)
> > >                             r=conn.getresponse()
> > >
> > > <<Code ends>>
> > >
> > > It currently takes about 3 minutes to execute completely and I was thinking of a way to make it run faster
> > >
> > > Data alignment (Influx line protocol) & data loading - done together takes up most of the time
> > >
> > > Influxdb is currently loading data at around 3 points/second
> > >
> > > Any way to align the data separately, store it and load it as a batch?
> > >
> > > I feel that would help improve performance
> > >
> > > Please let me know if you have any pointers
> > > I can send the data sheet if required
> > >
> > > Thanks P
> > > --
> > > https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
> 
> 
> 
> On Monday, April 3, 2017 at 9:52:38 PM UTC+5:30, INADA Naoki wrote:
> > You can reuse connection, instead of creating for each request. (HTTP
> > keep-alive).
> > 
> > On Tue, Apr 4, 2017 at 1:11 AM, Prathamesh <prathamesh.nimkar at gmail.com> wrote:
> > > Hello World
> > >
> > > The following script is an extract from
> > >
> > > https://github.com/RittmanMead/obi-metrics-agent/blob/master/obi-metrics-agent.py
> > >
> > > <<Code begins>>
> > >
> > > import calendar, time
> > > import sys
> > > import getopt
> > >
> > > print '---------------------------------------'
> > >
> > > # Check the arguments to this script are as expected.
> > > # argv[0] is script name.
> > > argLen = len(sys.argv)
> > > if argLen -1 < 2:
> > >     print "ERROR: got ", argLen -1, " args, must be at least two."
> > >     print '$FMW_HOME/oracle_common/common/bin/wlst.sh obi-metrics-agent.py  <AdminUserName> <AdminPassword> [<AdminServer_t3_url>] [<Carbon|InfluxDB>] [<target host>] [<target port>] [targetDB influx db>'
> > >     exit()
> > >
> > > outputFormat='CSV'
> > > url='t3://localhost:7001'
> > > targetHost='localhost'
> > > targetDB='obi'
> > > targetPort='8086'
> > >
> > > try:
> > >     wls_user = sys.argv[1]
> > >     wls_pw = sys.argv[2]
> > >     url  = sys.argv[3]
> > >     outputFormat=sys.argv[4]
> > >     targetHost=sys.argv[5]
> > >     targetPort=sys.argv[6]
> > >     targetDB=sys.argv[7]
> > > except:
> > >     print ''
> > >
> > > print wls_user, wls_pw,url, outputFormat,targetHost,targetPort,targetDB
> > >
> > > now_epoch = calendar.timegm(time.gmtime())*1000
> > >
> > > if outputFormat=='InfluxDB':
> > >     import httplib
> > >     influx_msgs=''
> > >
> > > connect(wls_user,wls_pw,url)
> > > results = displayMetricTables('Oracle_BI*','dms_cProcessInfo')
> > > for table in results:
> > >     tableName = table.get('Table')
> > >     rows = table.get('Rows')
> > >     rowCollection = rows.values()
> > >     iter = rowCollection.iterator()
> > >     while iter.hasNext():
> > >         row = iter.next()
> > >         rowType = row.getCompositeType()
> > >         keys = rowType.keySet()
> > >         keyIter = keys.iterator()
> > >         inst_name= row.get('Name').replace(' ','-')
> > >         try:
> > >             server= row.get('Servername').replace(' ','-').replace('/','_')
> > >         except:
> > >             try:
> > >                 server= row.get('ServerName').replace(' ','-').replace('/','_')
> > >             except:
> > >                 server='unknown'
> > >         try:
> > >             host= row.get('Host').replace(' ','-')
> > >         except:
> > >             host=''
> > >         while keyIter.hasNext():
> > >             columnName = keyIter.next()
> > >             value = row.get(columnName )
> > >             if columnName.find('.value')>0:
> > >                 metric_name=columnName.replace('.value','')
> > >                 if value is not None:
> > >                     if value != 0:
> > >                         if outputFormat=='InfluxDB':
> > >                             influx_msg= ('%s,server=%s,host=%s,metric_group=%s,metric_instance=%s value=%s %s') % (metric_name,server,host,tableName,inst_name,  value,now_epoch*1000000)
> > >                             influx_msgs+='\n%s' % influx_msg
> > >                             conn = httplib.HTTPConnection('%s:%s' % (targetHost,targetPort))
> > >                             ## TODO pretty sure should be urlencoding this ...
> > >                             a=conn.request("POST", ("/write?db=%s" % targetDB), influx_msg)
> > >                             r=conn.getresponse()
> > >
> > > <<Code ends>>
> > >
> > > It currently takes about 3 minutes to execute completely and I was thinking of a way to make it run faster
> > >
> > > Data alignment (Influx line protocol) & data loading - done together takes up most of the time
> > >
> > > Influxdb is currently loading data at around 3 points/second
> > >
> > > Any way to align the data separately, store it and load it as a batch?
> > >
> > > I feel that would help improve performance
> > >
> > > Please let me know if you have any pointers
> > > I can send the data sheet if required
> > >
> > > Thanks P
> > > --
> > > https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
> 
> 
> 
> On Monday, April 3, 2017 at 9:52:38 PM UTC+5:30, INADA Naoki wrote:
> > You can reuse connection, instead of creating for each request. (HTTP
> > keep-alive).
> > 
> > On Tue, Apr 4, 2017 at 1:11 AM, Prathamesh <prathamesh.nimkar at gmail.com> wrote:
> > > Hello World
> > >
> > > The following script is an extract from
> > >
> > > https://github.com/RittmanMead/obi-metrics-agent/blob/master/obi-metrics-agent.py
> > >
> > > <<Code begins>>
> > >
> > > import calendar, time
> > > import sys
> > > import getopt
> > >
> > > print '---------------------------------------'
> > >
> > > # Check the arguments to this script are as expected.
> > > # argv[0] is script name.
> > > argLen = len(sys.argv)
> > > if argLen -1 < 2:
> > >     print "ERROR: got ", argLen -1, " args, must be at least two."
> > >     print '$FMW_HOME/oracle_common/common/bin/wlst.sh obi-metrics-agent.py  <AdminUserName> <AdminPassword> [<AdminServer_t3_url>] [<Carbon|InfluxDB>] [<target host>] [<target port>] [targetDB influx db>'
> > >     exit()
> > >
> > > outputFormat='CSV'
> > > url='t3://localhost:7001'
> > > targetHost='localhost'
> > > targetDB='obi'
> > > targetPort='8086'
> > >
> > > try:
> > >     wls_user = sys.argv[1]
> > >     wls_pw = sys.argv[2]
> > >     url  = sys.argv[3]
> > >     outputFormat=sys.argv[4]
> > >     targetHost=sys.argv[5]
> > >     targetPort=sys.argv[6]
> > >     targetDB=sys.argv[7]
> > > except:
> > >     print ''
> > >
> > > print wls_user, wls_pw,url, outputFormat,targetHost,targetPort,targetDB
> > >
> > > now_epoch = calendar.timegm(time.gmtime())*1000
> > >
> > > if outputFormat=='InfluxDB':
> > >     import httplib
> > >     influx_msgs=''
> > >
> > > connect(wls_user,wls_pw,url)
> > > results = displayMetricTables('Oracle_BI*','dms_cProcessInfo')
> > > for table in results:
> > >     tableName = table.get('Table')
> > >     rows = table.get('Rows')
> > >     rowCollection = rows.values()
> > >     iter = rowCollection.iterator()
> > >     while iter.hasNext():
> > >         row = iter.next()
> > >         rowType = row.getCompositeType()
> > >         keys = rowType.keySet()
> > >         keyIter = keys.iterator()
> > >         inst_name= row.get('Name').replace(' ','-')
> > >         try:
> > >             server= row.get('Servername').replace(' ','-').replace('/','_')
> > >         except:
> > >             try:
> > >                 server= row.get('ServerName').replace(' ','-').replace('/','_')
> > >             except:
> > >                 server='unknown'
> > >         try:
> > >             host= row.get('Host').replace(' ','-')
> > >         except:
> > >             host=''
> > >         while keyIter.hasNext():
> > >             columnName = keyIter.next()
> > >             value = row.get(columnName )
> > >             if columnName.find('.value')>0:
> > >                 metric_name=columnName.replace('.value','')
> > >                 if value is not None:
> > >                     if value != 0:
> > >                         if outputFormat=='InfluxDB':
> > >                             influx_msg= ('%s,server=%s,host=%s,metric_group=%s,metric_instance=%s value=%s %s') % (metric_name,server,host,tableName,inst_name,  value,now_epoch*1000000)
> > >                             influx_msgs+='\n%s' % influx_msg
> > >                             conn = httplib.HTTPConnection('%s:%s' % (targetHost,targetPort))
> > >                             ## TODO pretty sure should be urlencoding this ...
> > >                             a=conn.request("POST", ("/write?db=%s" % targetDB), influx_msg)
> > >                             r=conn.getresponse()
> > >
> > > <<Code ends>>
> > >
> > > It currently takes about 3 minutes to execute completely and I was thinking of a way to make it run faster
> > >
> > > Data alignment (Influx line protocol) & data loading - done together takes up most of the time
> > >
> > > Influxdb is currently loading data at around 3 points/second
> > >
> > > Any way to align the data separately, store it and load it as a batch?
> > >
> > > I feel that would help improve performance
> > >
> > > Please let me know if you have any pointers
> > > I can send the data sheet if required
> > >
> > > Thanks P
> > > --
> > > https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list


From bc at freeuk.com  Mon Apr 10 05:43:42 2017
From: bc at freeuk.com (bartc)
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2017 10:43:42 +0100
Subject: Python and the need for speed
In-Reply-To: <42aabf19-6054-4da4-8d7d-ea4802d2d3be@googlegroups.com>
References: <768f9a44-5d90-4756-8a99-821253a491f8@googlegroups.com>
 <CAPTjJmrMWpzGd9Lf_sa-mscvqezY01U5kDCPRh07Nuivvxo8yg@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.5.1491710256.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <W8vGA.379049$dI6.117383@fx31.am4>
 <42aabf19-6054-4da4-8d7d-ea4802d2d3be@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <ftIGA.712083$fZ.318697@fx41.am4>

On 10/04/2017 03:40, Rick Johnson wrote:
> On Sunday, April 9, 2017 at 1:34:39 PM UTC-5, bartc wrote:

>> I have my own interpreted language which I call 'dynamic',
>> but compared with Python, code in it might as well be set
>> in concrete.
>
> Is this a personal toy, or something that you can share a
> link to?

It's a personal thing but not a toy. Some more info here:

https://github.com/bartg/langs/tree/master/qlang

Click on the 'Q Features' link, this includes a selection of built-in 
features that have been easily and efficiently implemented 
(enumerations, records etc) which Python seems to have trouble with.

(And it can't have simple enumerations such that cat=1, dog=2, but needs 
to have every conceivable embellishment. In other words it doesn't know 
how to keep things simple.)

(To actually run this, there still appears to be a file 'pcc.c' at the 
top level of that github project. This is an old C version of the 
interpreter (yes, just one file) and it seemed to work when I tried it 
just now. You need a 32-bit C compiler. I had to remove a binary version 
(for Windows) when someone said github doesn't allow binaries.)

> For all the hype about GvR's "supposed" time machine, we can
> see that Python has suffered some major design flaws. And
> since Python3000, feature creep has been churning into
> overdrive.

Yes. I suppose when it gets to a point where there are so many features 
anyway, adding a few more makes little difference!

-- 
bartc


From renting at astron.nl  Mon Apr 10 06:50:01 2017
From: renting at astron.nl (Adriaan Renting)
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2017 12:50:01 +0200
Subject: Swiss Ephemeris
In-Reply-To: <000001d2b1bb$7f8e7950$27b23dae@sambora>
References: <1710f867-da07-4c52-9ff5-7b349dd8e485@googlegroups.com>
 <000001d2b1bb$7f8e7950$27b23dae@sambora>
Message-ID: <58EB7F790200001B00016CA3@smtp1.astron.nl>


There are at least two other packages with Python bindings that allow
ephimerides calculations.

1) PyEphem http://rhodesmill.org/pyephem/
2) Pyraphttp://www.astron.nl/casacore/trunk/pyrap/docs/ (This needs a
very big casacore c++ library and thus a pain to compile, but can give
second level accuracy if you use updated IERS tables).

As to the ancient's (Greek/Roman) nature philosophy. We still use some
of it today, especially in the fields of mathematics, mechanics and
observational astronomy, but their understanding of biology and
especially the human body was entirely incorrect.

Western/Islamic medicine largely followed Hippocrates for nearly 2000
years (although the ideas are originally from Indian Ayurveda) and some
of the methods had some merit, but overall the treatments were often
worse than the disease, for example George Washinton was almost
certainly killed by his doctors.
Only with the application of the scientific method to medicine after
the enlightenment have we started to make any real progress. The most
important of which is blind trials in which a treatment needs to show to
be better than a placebo.

One of the most important things that modern medicine has shown is that
a placebo can have a real effect and cure people. Some people do get
better after you give them a sugar pill or its equivalent.
As humans we're also very good at seeing correlation and causation when
none might exist. Matt Parker has a very entertaining talk about this
here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sf5OrthVRPA

Cheers,

Adriaan Renting

P.S. I had an uncle who died of cancer 2 years ago who was a firm
believer in all kinds of non-mainstream cures and tried all kinds of
alternative cures from accupuncture to yoga to Gc-MAF. In the end the
only results I saw were that these people got many 10.000s euros from
him and he died very disillusioned and poor as these were not covered by
his health insurance. I learned a lot about magazines like "What doctors
don't tell you" - which use the images of people in white labcoats to
sell you things that doctors don't tell you about because they are known
to be ineffective or even bad for you. I understand that a lot of people
have a problem with authority and/or look for alternatives if mainstream
medicine can't help them. And sometimes the methods seem to work and
those are the stories you hear, as the other people end up like my
uncle, who's not here any more to tell his story. Don't end up like my
uncle.

 >>>
> Fully recognizing that most of what you wrote was tongue-in-cheek, I
> just want to say that regardless of the wonders of modern medicine,
it's
> a pity they learn so little about successful medicines other than
their
> own. In other academic scientific disciplines such as physics and
> chemistry it's not uncommon to see history of science courses in the
> curriculum. But not in medicine. I learned what I know about ancient
> Greek science from a university physics professor, though I doubt he
> would ever have guessed that one of his students would someday
breathe
> new life into that ancient science by attempting to ressurrect it.
The
> great ancients were no less endowed with intelligence than we are,
they
> simply directed it to different ends.
> 
> 
> Rick Johnson wrote, on Sunday, April 09, 2017 9:00 PM
>> 
>> On Sunday, April 9, 2017 at 8:52:44 PM UTC-5, Deborah Swanson
wrote:
>> > PS. I've been using medical astrology to look ahead at my medical

>> > condition for years in advance. And being off by a day or 
>> so doesn't 
>> > matter that much when you're looking at trends over the course of

>> > years and decades. I also have a little software widget to 
>> look at the 
>> > planetary data in graphical chart form at any particular 
>> second, also 
>> > based on sweph, which has been quite astoundingly accurate in
>> > following the rather complex kaleidoscope of my symptoms
>> > during the course of a day. (Though it doesn't do you a bit
>> > of good if you forget to look! Which is my entire
>> > motivation to get it encoded and available with a few
>> > clicks.) And it is quite useful to know in advance what
>> > will be happening when, and most importantly when it will
>> > stop. Knowledge is power!
>> 
>> It's simply amazing what technology can do these days. And
>> with medical diagnosis now just a few clicks away, someone 
>> really should tell those medical students to stop wasting 
>> time and money at university.
>> 
>> > Caveat. This kind of precision and accuracy is only found
>> > in the specific forms of astrology which relate to pure physical 
>> > phenomena, and most of what you see these days masquerading as 
>> > astrology is pure hooey, almost entirely invented on a 
>> large scale in 
>> > the Middle Ages and flowered in the Renaissance.
>> 
>> Whadda coinicidence, as did alchemy!
>> 
>> > By pure physical phenomena, which is the only phenomena
>> > that is at least debatably influenced by physical planetary 
>> forces, I 
>> > mean things like the moon's tides, sunspots, plant and 
>> animal activity 
>> > throughout the year, and supremely, the inner workings of the
human 
>> > body, the first wholly Western medicine devised by the 
>> ancient Greeks. 
>> > (The ancient Greek physicians are an excellent fallback if
>> > modern medicine is failing you - if you can find enough
>> > that remains today of their art.)
>> 
>> Yeah, just uh, be sure to avoid te hemlock, mmmkay? ;-)
>> 
>> -- 
>> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
>



Adriaan Renting        | Email: renting at astron.nl
Software Engineer Radio Observatory
ASTRON                 | Phone: +31 521 595 100 (797 direct)
P.O. Box 2             | GSM:   +31 6 24 25 17 28
NL-7990 AA Dwingeloo   | FAX:   +31 521 595 101
The Netherlands        | Web: http://www.astron.nl/~renting/




From mikhailwas at gmail.com  Mon Apr 10 08:25:16 2017
From: mikhailwas at gmail.com (Mikhail V)
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2017 14:25:16 +0200
Subject: Python and the need for speed
In-Reply-To: <el01fmF900sU1@mid.individual.net>
References: <768f9a44-5d90-4756-8a99-821253a491f8@googlegroups.com>
 <CAPTjJmrMWpzGd9Lf_sa-mscvqezY01U5kDCPRh07Nuivvxo8yg@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.5.1491710256.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <el01fmF900sU1@mid.individual.net>
Message-ID: <CAE6NSRDLV5_f6uuUoX8EL0Y-6AiFT3wcw_UrQ50oFDwFJ8YAPw@mail.gmail.com>

On 10 April 2017 at 02:21, Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing at canterbury.ac.nz> wrote:
>
> ....
>
> My take on the idea of making Python less dynamic in order
> to improve speed is that you'll end up with a language that,
> while it may superficially resemble Python, doesn't
> really feel like Python.
>
> Boo is an example of that. It has a Python-like syntax, but
> to get any speed advantage you need to add static type
> delarations, and then it feels more like programming in
> C# than Python. At that point, you wonder whether you might
> just be better off writing your program in C# to begin with.
>
> That's not to say this kind of approach isn't worth pursuing,
> but like the JIT attempts mentioned in the article, it has
> also been tried before, with varying levels of success.

Agree. python is python and I suppose that performance issues
has much to do with types and OOP.
When I first started with python I thought - no, it is not possible
without types, if I'll write something more complicated than
hello world, it will all break at some point.
But hell, this works and works good.

Still I miss some old school features in Python, e.g. "goto" statement would
be very useful in some cases. I know it is considered bad style
to use goto, but in some cases it is just most natural thing to use.

What I am (and probably many people) missing is a good tool for
performance middle- and low-level applications.
For me it would be a coding tool, sort of minimalist IDE, with simple
readable syntax which generates compilable C code.
And it would not be necessarily python-like syntax,
but I tend to agree that for today python's syntax is
most readable.

The problem that many are overlooking still is that the
possibilities for syntaxes are very limited in pure text-mode
presentation.


From breamoreboy at gmail.com  Mon Apr 10 08:44:59 2017
From: breamoreboy at gmail.com (breamoreboy at gmail.com)
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2017 05:44:59 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Python and the need for speed
In-Reply-To: <mailman.18.1491827120.2951.python-list@python.org>
References: <768f9a44-5d90-4756-8a99-821253a491f8@googlegroups.com>
 <CAPTjJmrMWpzGd9Lf_sa-mscvqezY01U5kDCPRh07Nuivvxo8yg@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.5.1491710256.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <el01fmF900sU1@mid.individual.net>
 <CAE6NSRDLV5_f6uuUoX8EL0Y-6AiFT3wcw_UrQ50oFDwFJ8YAPw@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.18.1491827120.2951.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <b4b85939-4b1e-4822-839f-157976a4ce24@googlegroups.com>

On Monday, April 10, 2017 at 1:25:48 PM UTC+1, Mikhail V wrote:
> 
> Still I miss some old school features in Python, e.g. "goto" statement would
> be very useful in some cases. I know it is considered bad style
> to use goto, but in some cases it is just most natural thing to use.
> 

http://entrian.com/goto/
https://pypi.python.org/pypi/goto-statement

Kindest regards.

Mark Lawrence.


From davidgshi at yahoo.co.uk  Mon Apr 10 09:17:16 2017
From: davidgshi at yahoo.co.uk (David Shi)
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2017 13:17:16 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: Pound sign problem
References: <679200651.679871.1491830236809.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <679200651.679871.1491830236809@mail.yahoo.com>

In the data set, pound sign escape appears:
u'price_currency': u'\xa3', u'price_formatted': u'\xa3525,000',
When using table.to_csv after importing pandas as pd, an error message persists as follows:
UnicodeEncodeError: 'ascii' codec can't encode character u'\xa3' in position 0: ordinal not in range(128)

Can anyone help?
Regards.
David

From exarkun at twistedmatrix.com  Mon Apr 10 09:17:36 2017
From: exarkun at twistedmatrix.com (Jean-Paul Calderone)
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2017 09:17:36 -0400
Subject: [ANN] txAWS 0.3.0
Message-ID: <CAEeXt4PqYOQz4KYN1=3gTMPMtW178tyGHv-CpPXnL4nG+GiDJw@mail.gmail.com>

Hello all,

I'm pleased to announce the release of txAWS 0.3.0.  txAWS is a library for
interacting with
Amazon Web Services (AWS) using Twisted.

You can download the release from PyPI <https://pypi.python.org/pypi/txAWS>
 (https://pypi.python.org/pypi/txAWS).

txAWS development uses GitHub for issues and source control
<https://github.com/twisted/txaws> (https://github.com/twisted/txaws).

Since the last release, the following enhancements have been made:

   - Jean-Paul Calderone added basic Route53 support.
   - Mark Williams add Auth v4, now used by the S3 and Route53 support.
   - Francisco Souza added support for VPCs to some EC2 APIs.
   - Drew Smathers added multi-part S3 upload support.
   - Several people added other S3 client features such as pagination and
   streaming uploads.
   - *txaws.testing* now provides S3 and Route53 support.

Additionally, the following APIs have been deprecated:

   - The *client* attribute of *txaws.client.base.BaseQuery*
   - The *date* attribute of *txaws.s3.client.Query*

Thanks to everyone who contributed and to Least Authority Enterprises
<https://leastauthority.com/> (<https://leastauthority.com/>) for
sponsoring my work on this release.

Jean-Paul Calderone


From ben+python at benfinney.id.au  Mon Apr 10 09:43:05 2017
From: ben+python at benfinney.id.au (Ben Finney)
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2017 23:43:05 +1000
Subject: Pound sign problem
References: <679200651.679871.1491830236809.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
 <679200651.679871.1491830236809@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <851st0cr9y.fsf@benfinney.id.au>

David Shi via Python-list <python-list at python.org> writes:

> When using table.to_csv after importing pandas as pd

I don't know much about that library. What does its documentation say
for the ?table.to_csv? function?

Can you write a *very short* complete example, that we can run to
demonstrate the same behaviour you are seeing?

> an error message persists as follows:
> UnicodeEncodeError: 'ascii' codec can't encode character u'\xa3' in position 0: ordinal not in range(128)

This means the function has been told (or is assuming, in the absence of
better information) that the input data is in the ?ascii? text encoding.

That assumption turns out to be incorrect, for the actual data you have.
So that error occurs.

You will need to:

* Find out exactly what text encoding was used to write the file. Don't
  guess, because there are many ways to be wrong.

* Specify that encoding to the ?table.to_csv? function, or to whatever
  function opens the file. (This might be the Python built-in ?open?
  function, but we'd need to see your short example to know.)

-- 
 \        ?Most people, I think, don't even know what a rootkit is, so |
  `\     why should they care about it?? ?Thomas Hesse, Sony BMG, 2006 |
_o__)                                                                  |
Ben Finney



From __peter__ at web.de  Mon Apr 10 09:51:21 2017
From: __peter__ at web.de (Peter Otten)
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2017 15:51:21 +0200
Subject: Pound sign problem
References: <679200651.679871.1491830236809.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
 <679200651.679871.1491830236809@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <ocg2kk$b5j$1@blaine.gmane.org>

David Shi via Python-list wrote:

> In the data set, pound sign escape appears:
> u'price_currency': u'\xa3', u'price_formatted': u'\xa3525,000',
> When using table.to_csv after importing pandas as pd, an error message
> persists as follows: UnicodeEncodeError: 'ascii' codec can't encode
> character u'\xa3' in position 0: ordinal not in range(128)

The default encoding in Python 2 is ascii, and the pound sign is not part of 
that.

> Can anyone help?

Specify an alternative encoding, preferably UTF-8:

>>> import pandas
>>> df = pandas.DataFrame([[u"\xa3123"], [u"\xa3321"]], columns=["Price"])
>>> df
  Price
0  ?123
1  ?321

[2 rows x 1 columns]
>>> df.to_csv("tmp.csv", encoding="utf-8")
>>> 
$ cat tmp.csv
,Price
0,?123
1,?321
$ 




From jorge.conrado at cptec.inpe.br  Mon Apr 10 09:53:10 2017
From: jorge.conrado at cptec.inpe.br (jorge.conrado at cptec.inpe.br)
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2017 10:53:10 -0300
Subject: Pillow ImportError: No module named Image
Message-ID: <46227e6d0f8fdadcd9e1e841f6d3d2c1@cptec.inpe.br>

Hi,

I installed the Pillow in my computer. The I did:

import Image, ImageMath

ImportError: No module named Image

Please, what can I do to solve this.

Conrado


From wrw at mac.com  Mon Apr 10 09:53:47 2017
From: wrw at mac.com (William Ray Wing)
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2017 09:53:47 -0400
Subject: Python and the need for speed
In-Reply-To: <CAE6NSRDLV5_f6uuUoX8EL0Y-6AiFT3wcw_UrQ50oFDwFJ8YAPw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <768f9a44-5d90-4756-8a99-821253a491f8@googlegroups.com>
 <CAPTjJmrMWpzGd9Lf_sa-mscvqezY01U5kDCPRh07Nuivvxo8yg@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.5.1491710256.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <el01fmF900sU1@mid.individual.net>
 <CAE6NSRDLV5_f6uuUoX8EL0Y-6AiFT3wcw_UrQ50oFDwFJ8YAPw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5E03504C-6C37-4286-B1CC-B1779A8290D3@mac.com>


> On Apr 10, 2017, at 8:25 AM, Mikhail V <mikhailwas at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> On 10 April 2017 at 02:21, Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing at canterbury.ac.nz> wrote:
>> 
>> ....
>> 
>> My take on the idea of making Python less dynamic in order
>> to improve speed is that you'll end up with a language that,
>> while it may superficially resemble Python, doesn't
>> really feel like Python.
>> 
>> Boo is an example of that. It has a Python-like syntax, but
>> to get any speed advantage you need to add static type
>> delarations, and then it feels more like programming in
>> C# than Python. At that point, you wonder whether you might
>> just be better off writing your program in C# to begin with.
>> 
>> That's not to say this kind of approach isn't worth pursuing,
>> but like the JIT attempts mentioned in the article, it has
>> also been tried before, with varying levels of success.
> 
> Agree. python is python and I suppose that performance issues
> has much to do with types and OOP.
> When I first started with python I thought - no, it is not possible
> without types, if I'll write something more complicated than
> hello world, it will all break at some point.
> But hell, this works and works good.
> 
> Still I miss some old school features in Python, e.g. "goto" statement would
> be very useful in some cases. I know it is considered bad style
> to use goto, but in some cases it is just most natural thing to use.
> 
> What I am (and probably many people) missing is a good tool for
> performance middle- and low-level applications.
> For me it would be a coding tool, sort of minimalist IDE, with simple
> readable syntax which generates compilable C code.
> And it would not be necessarily python-like syntax,
> but I tend to agree that for today python's syntax is
> most readable.

Have you considered Swift, now that it is open source?

Bill

> 
> The problem that many are overlooking still is that the
> possibilities for syntaxes are very limited in pure text-mode
> presentation.
> -- 
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list



From rgacote at appropriatesolutions.com  Mon Apr 10 09:59:14 2017
From: rgacote at appropriatesolutions.com (Ray Cote)
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2017 09:59:14 -0400
Subject: Python 3.6 printing crashing on OS X 10.12.4
In-Reply-To: <oc3h78$1ikj$2@gioia.aioe.org>
References: <CAG5tnzrh00x4HBD6VXySSbBxGBKs3EF1MwjG_CX8mD1pg6f9Vw@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.160.1491416129.2961.python-list@python.org>
 <oc3h78$1ikj$2@gioia.aioe.org>
Message-ID: <CAG5tnzqQJqJjze9THuc1=0dL7xFdocopWTPXwdkHmtQVbp1b4w@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Apr 5, 2017 at 3:40 PM, Python <python at example.invalid> wrote:

> Le 05/04/2017 ? 20:14, Ray Cote a ?crit :
>
>> Hello:
>>
>> Python 3.6 crashing when trying to print from the environment.
>>
>> $ python
>> Python 3.6.1 (default, Mar 22 2017, 15:53:21)
>> [GCC 4.2.1 Compatible Apple LLVM 8.0.0 (clang-800.0.42.1)] on darwin
>> Type "help", "copyright", "credits" or "license" for more information.
>>
>>> print("hello")
>>>>>
>>>>
>> Python(53390,0x7fffdd9e63c0) malloc: *** error for object 0x10dde4110:
>> pointer being freed was not allocated
>> *** set a breakpoint in malloc_error_break to debug
>> Abort trap: 6
>>
>>
>> Pastebin link to OS X crash report if that?s helpful:
>> https://pastebin.com/t1j3nz5L
>>
>>
>> 1: Python installed via ports.
>> 2: OS X 10.12.4.
>> 3: Python 3.6.1 (though I also had this problem with 3.6.0).
>> 4: Have successfully run python 3.5 for months.
>> 5: Running under standard terminal program.
>> 6: I have py36-readline installed.
>> 7: Have tried uninstalling and re-installing Python.
>>
>> Any thoughts on what I could have wrong?
>>
>> Regards
>> ?Ray
>>
>>
> Mac OS X 10.12.3, Python 3 installed by brew
>
> mac:~$ uname -r
> 16.4.0
> mac:~$ python3
> Python 3.6.0 (default, Mar  4 2017, 12:32:34)
> [GCC 4.2.1 Compatible Apple LLVM 8.0.0 (clang-800.0.42.1)] on darwin
> Type "help", "copyright", "credits" or "license" for more information.
> >>> print("hello")
> hello
>
> --
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
>


Follow up:

Never did find out why the macports Python was crashing.
Switched over to brew and it is working fine.
?R


From jon+usenet at unequivocal.eu  Mon Apr 10 10:16:25 2017
From: jon+usenet at unequivocal.eu (Jon Ribbens)
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2017 14:16:25 -0000 (UTC)
Subject: Pillow ImportError: No module named Image
References: <46227e6d0f8fdadcd9e1e841f6d3d2c1@cptec.inpe.br>
 <mailman.24.1491832848.2951.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <slrnoen53h.2ms.jon+usenet@sable.unequivocal.eu>

On 2017-04-10, jorge.conrado at cptec.inpe.br <jorge.conrado at cptec.inpe.br> wrote:
> I installed the Pillow in my computer. The I did:
>
> import Image, ImageMath
>
> ImportError: No module named Image

Try:

    from PIL import Image, ImageMath


From lew.pitcher at digitalfreehold.ca  Mon Apr 10 10:50:28 2017
From: lew.pitcher at digitalfreehold.ca (Lew Pitcher)
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2017 10:50:28 -0400
Subject: Pound sign problem
References: <679200651.679871.1491830236809.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
 <679200651.679871.1491830236809@mail.yahoo.com>
 <mailman.19.1491830440.2951.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <ocg5tt$ijn$1@dont-email.me>

David Shi wrote:

> In the data set, pound sign escape appears:
> u'price_currency': u'\xa3', u'price_formatted': u'\xa3525,000',
> When using table.to_csv after importing pandas as pd, an error message
> persists as follows: UnicodeEncodeError: 'ascii' codec can't encode
> character u'\xa3' in position 0: ordinal not in range(128)

There is no "pound sign" in ASCII[1]. Try changing your target encoding to 
something other than ASCII.

[1]: See http://std.dkuug.dk/i18n/charmaps/ascii for a list of valid ASCII 
values.

-- 
Lew Pitcher
"In Skills, We Trust"
PGP public key available upon request




From cjw at ncf.ca  Mon Apr 10 11:45:05 2017
From: cjw at ncf.ca (Colin J. Williams)
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2017 11:45:05 -0400
Subject: Installing Python 3.6.1 on a Windows 10
Message-ID: <f23c74ca-022e-16d0-b086-a59e48b3ca80@ncf.ca>

   Below is the tail of my Install Log.

   Is this a problem that I should be able to resolve?

   Advice sought.

   C

   Property(S): RedirectedDllSupport = 2
   Property(S): MsiRunningElevated = 1
   Property(S): Privileged = 1
   Property(S): USERNAME = AdminOnly
   Property(S): Installed = 00:00:00
   Property(S): DATABASE = C:\WINDOWS\Installer\3cb4905.msi
   Property(S): OriginalDatabase = C:\WINDOWS\Installer\3cb4905.msi
   Property(S): UILevel = 2
   Property(S): MsiUISourceResOnly = 1
   Property(S): Preselected = 1
   Property(S): ACTION = INSTALL
   Property(S): ROOTDRIVE = E:\
   Property(S): CostingComplete = 1
   Property(S): OutOfDiskSpace = 0
   Property(S): OutOfNoRbDiskSpace = 0
   Property(S): PrimaryVolumeSpaceAvailable = 0
   Property(S): PrimaryVolumeSpaceRequired = 0
   Property(S): PrimaryVolumeSpaceRemaining = 0
   Property(S): INSTALLLEVEL = 1
   MSI (s) (2C:60) [09:00:59:536]: Note: 1: 1724
   MSI (s) (2C:60) [09:00:59:536]: Note: 1: 2205 2:  3: Error
   MSI (s) (2C:60) [09:00:59:536]: Note: 1: 2228 2:  3: Error 4: SELECT
   `Message` FROM `Error` WHERE `Error` = 1724
   MSI (s) (2C:60) [09:00:59:536]: Note: 1: 2205 2:  3: Error
   MSI (s) (2C:60) [09:00:59:536]: Note: 1: 2228 2:  3: Error 4: SELECT
   `Message` FROM `Error` WHERE `Error` = 1709
   MSI (s) (2C:60) [09:00:59:536]: Product: Python 3.6.1 Core Interpreter
   (64-bit symbols) -- Removal completed successfully.

   MSI (s) (2C:60) [09:00:59:536]: Windows Installer removed the product.
   Product Name: Python 3.6.1 Core Interpreter (64-bit symbols). Product
   Version: 3.6.1150.0. Product Language: 1033. Manufacturer: Python Software
   Foundation. Removal success or error status: 0.

   MSI (s) (2C:60) [09:00:59:536]: Deferring clean up of packages/files, if
   any exist
   MSI (s) (2C:60) [09:00:59:536]: MainEngineThread is returning 0
   MSI (s) (2C:DC) [09:00:59:536]: RESTART MANAGER: Session closed.
   MSI (s) (2C:DC) [09:00:59:536]: No System Restore sequence number for this
   installation.
   === Logging stopped: 2017-04-10  9:00:59 ===
   MSI (s) (2C:DC) [09:00:59:551]: User policy value 'DisableRollback' is 0
   MSI (s) (2C:DC) [09:00:59:551]: Machine policy value 'DisableRollback' is
   0
   MSI (s) (2C:DC) [09:00:59:551]: Incrementing counter to disable shutdown.
   Counter after increment: 0
   MSI (s) (2C:DC) [09:00:59:551]: Note: 1: 1402 2:
   HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\Software\Microsoft\Windows\CurrentVersion\Installer\Rollback\Scripts
   3: 2
   MSI (s) (2C:DC) [09:00:59:551]: Note: 1: 2265 2:  3: -2147287035
   MSI (s) (2C:DC) [09:00:59:551]: Note: 1: 1402 2:
   HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\Software\Microsoft\Windows\CurrentVersion\Installer\Rollback\Scripts
   3: 2
   MSI (s) (2C:DC) [09:00:59:551]: Decrementing counter to disable shutdown.
   If counter >= 0, shutdown will be denied.  Counter after decrement: -1
   MSI (s) (2C:DC) [09:00:59:551]: Post-install cleanup: removing installer
   file 'C:\WINDOWS\Installer\3cb4905.msi'
   MSI (c) (C8:98) [09:00:59:551]: Decrementing counter to disable shutdown.
   If counter >= 0, shutdown will be denied.  Counter after decrement: -1
   MSI (c) (C8:98) [09:00:59:551]: MainEngineThread is returning 0
   === Verbose logging stopped: 2017-04-10  9:00:59 ===


From redstone-cold at 163.com  Mon Apr 10 12:00:17 2017
From: redstone-cold at 163.com (iMath)
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2017 09:00:17 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: using HTTPHandler cause Django server side shows http 400 and
 Invalid HTTP_HOST header message
In-Reply-To: <58e4830b$0$1502$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
References: <41b72e7a-8479-4901-9397-44bae30bee9c@googlegroups.com>
 <58e4830b$0$1502$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
Message-ID: <d5bdcad2-3402-4f6c-a460-887b642b733c@googlegroups.com>


> Are you sure you posted the code you are actually using? Because the 
> error message suggests a difference.
> 
I am sure !

As I have tested: If I pass the IP address of my web server to the host parameter of HTTPHandler, the server side would show http 400 and Invalid HTTP_HOST header message  , while if I pass the domain name instead, then the view function works as expected . 
 
would it be a bug within HTTPHandler?


From redstone-cold at 163.com  Mon Apr 10 12:08:32 2017
From: redstone-cold at 163.com (iMath)
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2017 09:08:32 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: using HTTPHandler cause Django server side shows http 400 and
 Invalid HTTP_HOST header message
In-Reply-To: <d5bdcad2-3402-4f6c-a460-887b642b733c@googlegroups.com>
References: <41b72e7a-8479-4901-9397-44bae30bee9c@googlegroups.com>
 <58e4830b$0$1502$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <d5bdcad2-3402-4f6c-a460-887b642b733c@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <41b65552-c842-4b7d-b437-4eaf29444215@googlegroups.com>

On Tuesday, April 11, 2017 at 12:00:27 AM UTC+8, iMath wrote:
> > Are you sure you posted the code you are actually using? Because the 
> > error message suggests a difference.
> > 
> I am sure !
> 
> As I have tested: If I pass the IP address of my web server to the host parameter of HTTPHandler, the server side would show http 400 and Invalid HTTP_HOST header message , 
>  

Besides the http 400 and Invalid HTTP_HOST header message , there are also following exceptions 


Invalid HTTP_HOST header: '112.74.98.187:8001,112.74.98.187'. The domain name pr                                                                             ovided is not valid according to RFC 1034/1035.
[10/Apr/2017 15:38:04] "GET /VideoParser/lYYDownloaderClientLog/?funcName=%3Cmod                                                                             ule%3E&lineno=26&levelname=ERROR&name=__main__&stack_info=None&args=%28%29&modul                                                                             e=a&pathname=C%3A%5CUsers%5Ci%5CDocuments%5CTencent+Files%5C2281570025%5CFileRec                                                                             v%5Ca.py&process=6636&thread=6972&created=1491838715.9931207&msecs=993.120670318                                                                             6035&msg=testing+remote+logging&exc_info=None&relativeCreated=64.00370597839355&                                                                             filename=a.py&threadName=MainThread&processName=MainProcess&levelno=40&exc_text=                                                                             None HTTP/1.1" 400 66752
Traceback (most recent call last):
  File "/usr/local/lib/python3.6/wsgiref/handlers.py", line 138, in run
    self.finish_response()
  File "/usr/local/lib/python3.6/wsgiref/handlers.py", line 180, in finish_respo                                                                             nse
    self.write(data)
  File "/usr/local/lib/python3.6/wsgiref/handlers.py", line 279, in write
    self._write(data)
  File "/usr/local/lib/python3.6/wsgiref/handlers.py", line 453, in _write
    result = self.stdout.write(data)
  File "/usr/local/lib/python3.6/socketserver.py", line 775, in write
    self._sock.sendall(b)
ConnectionResetError: [Errno 104] Connection reset by peer
[10/Apr/2017 15:38:04] "GET /VideoParser/lYYDownloaderClientLog/?funcName=%3Cmod                                                                             ule%3E&lineno=26&levelname=ERROR&name=__main__&stack_info=None&args=%28%29&modul                                                                             e=a&pathname=C%3A%5CUsers%5Ci%5CDocuments%5CTencent+Files%5C2281570025%5CFileRec                                                                             v%5Ca.py&process=6636&thread=6972&created=1491838715.9931207&msecs=993.120670318                                                                             6035&msg=testing+remote+logging&exc_info=None&relativeCreated=64.00370597839355&                                                                             filename=a.py&threadName=MainThread&processName=MainProcess&levelno=40&exc_text=                                                                             None HTTP/1.1" 500 59
----------------------------------------
Exception happened during processing of request from ('117.136.84.223', 49862)
Traceback (most recent call last):
  File "/usr/local/lib/python3.6/wsgiref/handlers.py", line 138, in run
    self.finish_response()
  File "/usr/local/lib/python3.6/wsgiref/handlers.py", line 180, in finish_respo                                                                             nse
    self.write(data)
  File "/usr/local/lib/python3.6/wsgiref/handlers.py", line 279, in write
    self._write(data)
  File "/usr/local/lib/python3.6/wsgiref/handlers.py", line 453, in _write
    result = self.stdout.write(data)
  File "/usr/local/lib/python3.6/socketserver.py", line 775, in write
    self._sock.sendall(b)
ConnectionResetError: [Errno 104] Connection reset by peer

During handling of the above exception, another exception occurred:

Traceback (most recent call last):
  File "/usr/local/lib/python3.6/wsgiref/handlers.py", line 141, in run
    self.handle_error()
  File "/usr/local/lib/python3.6/site-packages/django/core/servers/basehttp.py",                                                                              line 95, in handle_error
    super(ServerHandler, self).handle_error()
  File "/usr/local/lib/python3.6/wsgiref/handlers.py", line 368, in handle_error
    self.finish_response()
  File "/usr/local/lib/python3.6/wsgiref/handlers.py", line 180, in finish_respo                                                                             nse
    self.write(data)
  File "/usr/local/lib/python3.6/wsgiref/handlers.py", line 274, in write
    self.send_headers()
  File "/usr/local/lib/python3.6/wsgiref/handlers.py", line 331, in send_headers
    if not self.origin_server or self.client_is_modern():
  File "/usr/local/lib/python3.6/wsgiref/handlers.py", line 344, in client_is_mo                                                                             dern
    return self.environ['SERVER_PROTOCOL'].upper() != 'HTTP/0.9'
TypeError: 'NoneType' object is not subscriptable

During handling of the above exception, another exception occurred:

Traceback (most recent call last):
  File "/usr/local/lib/python3.6/socketserver.py", line 639, in process_request_                                                                             thread
    self.finish_request(request, client_address)
  File "/usr/local/lib/python3.6/socketserver.py", line 361, in finish_request
    self.RequestHandlerClass(request, client_address, self)
  File "/usr/local/lib/python3.6/socketserver.py", line 696, in __init__
    self.handle()
  File "/usr/local/lib/python3.6/site-packages/django/core/servers/basehttp.py",                                                                              line 174, in handle
    handler.run(self.server.get_app())
  File "/usr/local/lib/python3.6/wsgiref/handlers.py", line 144, in run
    self.close()
  File "/usr/local/lib/python3.6/wsgiref/simple_server.py", line 35, in close
    self.status.split(' ',1)[0], self.bytes_sent
AttributeError: 'NoneType' object has no attribute 'split'
----------------------------------------


From redstone-cold at 163.com  Mon Apr 10 12:11:02 2017
From: redstone-cold at 163.com (iMath)
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2017 09:11:02 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: using HTTPHandler cause Django server side shows http 400 and
 Invalid HTTP_HOST header message
In-Reply-To: <d5bdcad2-3402-4f6c-a460-887b642b733c@googlegroups.com>
References: <41b72e7a-8479-4901-9397-44bae30bee9c@googlegroups.com>
 <58e4830b$0$1502$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <d5bdcad2-3402-4f6c-a460-887b642b733c@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <29b7b613-f40b-4bc3-a15b-56e6b61cd057@googlegroups.com>

On Tuesday, April 11, 2017 at 12:00:27 AM UTC+8, iMath wrote:
> > Are you sure you posted the code you are actually using? Because the 
> > error message suggests a difference.
> > 
> I am sure !
> 
> As I have tested: If I pass the IP address of my web server to the host parameter of HTTPHandler, the server side would show http 400 and Invalid HTTP_HOST header message  ,

Besides the http 400 and Invalid HTTP_HOST header message , there are also exceptions , pasted here https://bpaste.net/show/f2d2e64e7a7e


From jtrtransport at gmail.com  Mon Apr 10 13:22:23 2017
From: jtrtransport at gmail.com (John Ralph)
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2017 10:22:23 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Need help with getting Key, Value out of dicts in lists
In-Reply-To: <mailman.3.1491707074.2951.python-list@python.org>
References: <CA+nSE38r0OSDFvJ8ETPFi2TrGFKemwnEpOT3_xLUx9T0RG+Q1Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.3.1491707074.2951.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <3d916a74-9261-4bfb-968b-007c1e8c57bc@googlegroups.com>

There are a number of ways to reorganise the data for the exclusive use of your script without affecting the original data.  Is there a reason you can't or not allowed to do this?

Regardless, here's some code that might make things a little easier.  It operates on each balancer on the fly, reduces the number of for loops, and eliminates worries about where the tags are placed within the list.

from operator import itemgetter

alist = \
    [
        [
            {u'Value': 'shibboleth-prd', u'Key': 'Name'},
            {u'Value': 'kvmu', u'Key': 'Billing'},
            {u'Value': '20179204-181622543367489', u'Key': 'Resource_group_id'}
        ],
        [
            {u'Value': '20172857-152037106154311', u'Key': 'Resource_group_id'},
            {u'Value': 'shibboleth-tst', u'Key': 'Name'}
        ]
    ]

# Problem:
# for all resource group id tags that equal '20172857-152037106154311':
#   print its name tag (eg, "shibboleth-prd-alb")

# create a container (dict) of tags for each balancer on the fly
for balancer in alist:
    tags = dict(map(itemgetter('Key', 'Value'), balancer))
    print 'group of tags:', tags
    if itemgetter('Resource_group_id')(tags) == '20172857-152037106154311':
        print '\tfound resource, resource name:', itemgetter('Name')(tags)



From eryksun at gmail.com  Mon Apr 10 14:07:58 2017
From: eryksun at gmail.com (eryk sun)
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2017 18:07:58 +0000
Subject: Installing Python 3.6.1 on a Windows 10
In-Reply-To: <f23c74ca-022e-16d0-b086-a59e48b3ca80@ncf.ca>
References: <f23c74ca-022e-16d0-b086-a59e48b3ca80@ncf.ca>
Message-ID: <CACL+1avGpLdkGPOiZDBVhJ6=G4FfP+6t3vCJ3Xh4+KJnThdoEw@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Apr 10, 2017 at 3:45 PM, Colin J. Williams <cjw at ncf.ca> wrote:
> Below is the tail of my Install Log.
> Is this a problem that I should be able to resolve?
> Advice sought.

Open a Windows / Installation issue on bugs.python.org. Zip up the
installation logs and attach the zip to the issue.


From exarkun at twistedmatrix.com  Mon Apr 10 14:12:12 2017
From: exarkun at twistedmatrix.com (Jean-Paul Calderone)
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2017 14:12:12 -0400
Subject: [ANN] txkube 0.1.0
Message-ID: <CAEeXt4Ow_YxgoVqFP1S_JZ9UNw011i7kjzSfp_En-puXbxAd0Q@mail.gmail.com>

Hello all,

I'm pleased to announce the first release of txkube, a Twisted-based
library for interacting with Kubernetes using the HTTP API.

This release supports several of the most commonly used basic Kubernetes
objects, including Services, ConfigMaps, Deployments, ReplicaSets, and
Pods.  While Kubernetes has many, many more object kinds, this collection
of kinds already supports a very useful set of interactions.

Here is an example of txkube usage, taken from the README:

   from __future__ import print_function
   from twisted.internet.task import react

   from txkube import v1, network_kubernetes_from_context

   @react
   def main(reactor):
       k8s = network_kubernetes_from_context(reactor, u"minikube")
       client = k8s.client()
       d = client.list(v1.Namespace)
       d.addCallback(print)
       return d

You can download txkube from PyPI <https://pypi.python.org/pypi>.
You can contribute to its development on GitHub
<https://github.com/LeastAuthority/txkube>.

Thanks to Least Authority Enterprises <https://leastauthority.com/> for
sponsoring this development.

Jean-Paul Calderone
http://as.ynchrono.us/


From karlfx4 at gmail.com  Mon Apr 10 14:58:21 2017
From: karlfx4 at gmail.com (Peter Henry)
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2017 19:58:21 +0100
Subject: Swiss Ephemeris
In-Reply-To: <009c01d2b19d$1e76ce10$27b23dae@sambora>
References: <49f767bc-8059-46bb-82b3-718dc8295b53@googlegroups.com>
 <009c01d2b19d$1e76ce10$27b23dae@sambora>
Message-ID: <CAD35gQiixmcn6paHSGM9hAaw100xY3+js0nYZvGkqpTGBMS5yg@mail.gmail.com>

Hi Deborah,

Thanks your reply and interest,

A few years ago did create a Excel addin, that extracted planetary
coordinates from the Swisseph source code and populated excel spreadsheet
 This Marco addin had customised planetary settings of which was  useful

Currently now learning to program in Python as it  is flexible, popular
 for machine learning and data science. The idea the planetary coordinate
can help with timing stock commodity and Forex markets, as both freely
trading markets and planetary  movement adhere to natural law

Neural networks can also assist in extracting relationship information
between markets and planetary positions.

Whilst waiting for a solution  can you advise of an efficient way of
producing a a CSV file similar to the file attached, only planetary data
required


Many thanks

Peter

On 10 April 2017 at 02:52, Deborah Swanson <python at deborahswanson.net>
wrote:

> Peter Henry wrote, on Sunday, April 09, 2017 10:53 AM
> >
> > I have a package that has been altered to imported in to
> > python, however I tired to get is working but without success
> > I be missing something obvious
> >
> > The Swiss Ephemeris enable planetary coordinate  to be
> > imported and used in your program
> >
> > Files access https://pypi.python.org/pypi/pyswisseph
> >
> > Many thanks in advance
> >
> > Peter
>
> I've also worked on the problem of getting sweph into Python and have
> mostly struck out so far myself.
>
> I found one reliable means to get sweph's planetary data into Python,
> but it's more or less a cheat. Nonetheless, if you want to see how much
> good it does you, try the Swiss Ephemeris Test Page at
> http://www.astro.com/swisseph/swetest.htm. If you can successfully
> formulate a query useful to your purposes, you can download a csv of
> results, read it into Python, and work from there. Right now I'm working
> on converting some Excel spreadsheets and Excel VBA I use into Python
> and recoding it all, using the CSVs for jumping off points. That works
> pretty well, except the times from swetest are off a bit and I haven't
> figured out why. But I'm concentrating on getting all my VBA code ported
> to Python, and will go back to getting bang on data from sweph after I
> have my code done.
>
> The first thing I tried was to get sweph's C source code into a free
> IDE, but that whole project went down in flames. You can read bits and
> pieces of that misadventure at the tail end of the "Python application
> launcher (for Python code)" thread. I found sweph's C source code at
> some link off "Programming interface to the Swiss Ephemeris" at
> http://www.astro.com/swisseph/swephprg.htm (or maybe it was on
> http://www.astro.com/swisseph/swephinfo_e.htm - I can't easily find it
> now, but the download link is in one of those two pages somewhere.)
>
> Then I tried picking through sweph's C source code, attempting to
> manually reproduce the logic and the calculations in Python. That was a
> highly qualified semi-success because the times were still off, but it
> essentially produces the most basic planetary data. The swetest output
> CSVs were more complete however, and easy to read the planetary data
> into Python from, so I'd pretty much abandoned efforts to "translate"
> the C source code. And now, all my efforts to leverage the C source
> code. Even if successful it would be a lot more time sunk into working
> with a language other than Python, which I likely wouldn't have a use
> for after this project is completed.
>
> However, I have seen bits here and there on this list that are at least
> interesting. Tim Chase mentioned in passing that he encapsulated C
> source code in a class, which may bear looking into. Lutz Horn also gave
> a link for building a Python module to add a C language library to
> Python, which also might be worth checking out:
> https://docs.python.org/3/extending/index.html (I changed the 2 to a 3
> from the link he gave, but you can change it back to 2 if your working
> in a build of Python 2.)
>
> But many thanks for your pypi link to pyswisseph, which I will check
> out. I can reply to this thread after I give it a shot and tell you what
> I think of it. But like I said earlier, that won't be until all my Excel
> VBA code, which jumps off from the sweph bare planetary data, is ported
> to Python and working. Could be awhile yet. And if pyswisseph doesn't
> pan out, I'll likely work on refining the two methods I have for
> producing the planetary data, both of which are only lacking precisely
> accurate time data in my local time, and both are off by only 5-30
> minutes. I easily limped along for years with my Excel spread sheets
> using the swetest CSVs for input, even though my times then were more
> than a day off.
>
> Good luck! (and this venture is a goodly portion of luck...)
>
> Deborah
>
> PS. I've been using medical astrology to look ahead at my medical
> condition for years in advance. And being off by a day or so doesn't
> matter that much when you're looking at trends over the course of years
> and decades. I also have a little software widget to look at the
> planetary data in graphical chart form at any particular second, also
> based on sweph, which has been quite astoundingly accurate in following
> the rather complex kaleidoscope of my symptoms during the course of a
> day. (Though it doesn't do you a bit of good if you forget to look!
> Which is my entire motivation to get it encoded and available with a few
> clicks.) And it is quite useful to know in advance what will be
> happening when, and most importantly when it will stop. Knowledge is
> power!
>
> Caveat. This kind of precision and accuracy is only found in the
> specific forms of astrology which relate to pure physical phenomena, and
> most of what you see these days masquerading as astrology is pure hooey,
> almost entirely invented on  a large scale in the Middle Ages and
> flowered in the Renaissance. By pure physical phenomena, which is the
> only phenomena that is at least debatably influenced by physical
> planetary forces, I mean things like the moon's tides, sunspots, plant
> and animal activity throughout the year, and supremely, the inner
> workings of the human body, the first wholly Western medicine devised by
> the ancient Greeks. (The ancient Greek physicians are an excellent
> fallback if modern medicine is failing you - if you can find enough that
> remains today of their art.)
>
>


From jobmattcon at gmail.com  Mon Apr 10 16:01:08 2017
From: jobmattcon at gmail.com (Ho Yeung Lee)
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2017 13:01:08 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: how to convert this container back to format build result?
Message-ID: <23c47456-808b-40b1-95f8-ebdcde58a46a@googlegroups.com>


http://construct.readthedocs.io/en/latest/basics.html

format.build can build the hex string, 
but after edit attribute of the format parse result
it is a container, how to convert this container back to format build result?

#format.parse(format.build(dict(width=3,height=2,pixels=[7,8,9,11,12,13]))).signature
format = Struct(
"signature" / Const(b"a2MP"),
"width" / Int8ub,
"height" / Int8ub,
"pixels" / Array(3 * 2, Byte),
)

#protocolA = {"a1" : "a2"}
#protocolA["a2"] = "a3"
#protocolA["a3"] = "a1"
protocolA = {"a1MP" : format.build(dict(width=3,height=2,pixels=[7,8,9,11,12,13]))}

a2MP = format.parse(format.build(dict(width=3,height=2,pixels=[7,8,9,11,12,13])))
a2MP.signature = "a3MP"
protocolA["a2MP"] = a2MP.build({})
a1MP = format.parse(format.build(dict(width=3,height=2,pixels=[7,8,9,11,12,13])))
a1MP.signature = "a1MP"
protocolA["a3MP"] = format.build(a1MP)


From python at deborahswanson.net  Mon Apr 10 16:10:36 2017
From: python at deborahswanson.net (Deborah Swanson)
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2017 13:10:36 -0700
Subject: Swiss Ephemeris
In-Reply-To: <CAD35gQiixmcn6paHSGM9hAaw100xY3+js0nYZvGkqpTGBMS5yg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <001e01d2b236$84eb31b0$27b23dae@sambora>

Hi Peter,

I would be interested in seeing your Excel addin with customized
planetary settings. I'd be curious what these customizations would be,
though if they look useful I'd more likely be scavenging the code to
rewrite it in Python and add to what I already have, rather than using
the addin in Excel. The only thing not quite right about what I have is
the times, which are a smidge off. This could be due to planetary
anomalies, so I definitely would like to look at it.

I totally agree with all you said about Python and more. I didn't start
out in Python looking to replace Excel or to migrate my planetary
project to it, those things just happened along the way. But looking
around to see what was new and what was better than anything I'd done
before, Python was a natural choice.

I'll have to say though that I don't share your enthusiasm for modeling
the market with planetary relationships, indeed any mathematical
modelling of the market can easily be overall wrong, and yet complex
enough to engage the explorer endlessly. 

I've analyzed a couple of these schemes to draw that conclusion, though
it's tentative at best. Obviously there are mathematical models of the
market that do work, but I really don't know anything about them. 

In this case though, I don't see the connection between planetary
configurations and a pure physical aspect of the market for them to
engage with. And as you may recall from somewhere, to establish
causality you must produce the causal link between the two sets of
events you're attempting to correlate. No matter how stunning an array
of coincidences might be, without producing the causal link you really
don't have anything. This is a key error that many who do statistical
analyses tend to overlook.

I looked at your CSV, but I'm not sure what you would like to add to it,
probably because I'm totally unfamiliar with this type of project. 

Best in your endeavors,

Deborah


Peter Henry wrote, on Monday, April 10, 2017 11:58 AM

Hi Deborah,


Thanks your reply and interest, 


A few years ago did create a Excel addin, that extracted planetary
coordinates from the Swisseph source code and populated excel
spreadsheet  This Marco addin had customized planetary settings of which
was  useful


Currently now learning to program in Python as it  is flexible, popular
for machine learning and data science. The idea the planetary coordinate
can help with timing stock commodity and Forex markets, as both freely
trading markets and planetary  movement adhere to natural law


Neural networks can also assist in extracting relationship information
between markets and planetary positions. 


Whilst waiting for a solution  can you advise of an efficient way of
producing a a CSV file similar to the file attached, only planetary data
required




Many thanks 


Peter 


On 10 April 2017 at 02:52, Deborah Swanson <python at deborahswanson.net>
wrote:

Peter Henry wrote, on Sunday, April 09, 2017 10:53 AM
>
> I have a package that has been altered to imported in to
> python, however I tired to get is working but without success
> I be missing something obvious
>
> The Swiss Ephemeris enable planetary coordinate  to be
> imported and used in your program
>
> Files access https://pypi.python.org/pypi/pyswisseph
>
> Many thanks in advance
>
> Peter

I've also worked on the problem of getting sweph into Python and have
mostly struck out so far myself.

I found one reliable means to get sweph's planetary data into Python,
but it's more or less a cheat. Nonetheless, if you want to see how much
good it does you, try the Swiss Ephemeris Test Page at
http://www.astro.com/swisseph/swetest.htm. If you can successfully
formulate a query useful to your purposes, you can download a csv of
results, read it into Python, and work from there. Right now I'm working
on converting some Excel spreadsheets and Excel VBA I use into Python
and recoding it all, using the CSVs for jumping off points. That works
pretty well, except the times from swetest are off a bit and I haven't
figured out why. But I'm concentrating on getting all my VBA code ported
to Python, and will go back to getting bang on data from sweph after I
have my code done.

The first thing I tried was to get sweph's C source code into a free
IDE, but that whole project went down in flames. You can read bits and
pieces of that misadventure at the tail end of the "Python application
launcher (for Python code)" thread. I found sweph's C source code at
some link off "Programming interface to the Swiss Ephemeris" at
http://www.astro.com/swisseph/swephprg.htm (or maybe it was on
http://www.astro.com/swisseph/swephinfo_e.htm - I can't easily find it
now, but the download link is in one of those two pages somewhere.)

Then I tried picking through sweph's C source code, attempting to
manually reproduce the logic and the calculations in Python. That was a
highly qualified semi-success because the times were still off, but it
essentially produces the most basic planetary data. The swetest output
CSVs were more complete however, and easy to read the planetary data
into Python from, so I'd pretty much abandoned efforts to "translate"
the C source code. And now, all my efforts to leverage the C source
code. Even if successful it would be a lot more time sunk into working
with a language other than Python, which I likely wouldn't have a use
for after this project is completed.

However, I have seen bits here and there on this list that are at least
interesting. Tim Chase mentioned in passing that he encapsulated C
source code in a class, which may bear looking into. Lutz Horn also gave
a link for building a Python module to add a C language library to
Python, which also might be worth checking out:
https://docs.python.org/3/extending/index.html (I changed the 2 to a 3
from the link he gave, but you can change it back to 2 if your working
in a build of Python 2.)

But many thanks for your pypi link to pyswisseph, which I will check
out. I can reply to this thread after I give it a shot and tell you what
I think of it. But like I said earlier, that won't be until all my Excel
VBA code, which jumps off from the sweph bare planetary data, is ported
to Python and working. Could be awhile yet. And if pyswisseph doesn't
pan out, I'll likely work on refining the two methods I have for
producing the planetary data, both of which are only lacking precisely
accurate time data in my local time, and both are off by only 5-30
minutes. I easily limped along for years with my Excel spread sheets
using the swetest CSVs for input, even though my times then were more
than a day off.

Good luck! (and this venture is a goodly portion of luck...)

Deborah

PS. I've been using medical astrology to look ahead at my medical
condition for years in advance. And being off by a day or so doesn't
matter that much when you're looking at trends over the course of years
and decades. I also have a little software widget to look at the
planetary data in graphical chart form at any particular second, also
based on sweph, which has been quite astoundingly accurate in following
the rather complex kaleidoscope of my symptoms during the course of a
day. (Though it doesn't do you a bit of good if you forget to look!
Which is my entire motivation to get it encoded and available with a few
clicks.) And it is quite useful to know in advance what will be
happening when, and most importantly when it will stop. Knowledge is
power!

Caveat. This kind of precision and accuracy is only found in the
specific forms of astrology which relate to pure physical phenomena, and
most of what you see these days masquerading as astrology is pure hooey,
almost entirely invented on  a large scale in the Middle Ages and
flowered in the Renaissance. By pure physical phenomena, which is the
only phenomena that is at least debatably influenced by physical
planetary forces, I mean things like the moon's tides, sunspots, plant
and animal activity throughout the year, and supremely, the inner
workings of the human body, the first wholly Western medicine devised by
the ancient Greeks. (The ancient Greek physicians are an excellent
fallback if modern medicine is failing you - if you can find enough that
remains today of their art.)



From karlfx4 at gmail.com  Mon Apr 10 16:56:13 2017
From: karlfx4 at gmail.com (Peter Henry)
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2017 21:56:13 +0100
Subject: Fwd: Swiss Ephemeris
In-Reply-To: <CAD35gQjy5zfncREhyrepfgYAFUEpeh_Mrbf15NupVX8fW5qVbA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAD35gQiixmcn6paHSGM9hAaw100xY3+js0nYZvGkqpTGBMS5yg@mail.gmail.com>
 <001e01d2b236$84eb31b0$27b23dae@sambora>
 <CAD35gQjy5zfncREhyrepfgYAFUEpeh_Mrbf15NupVX8fW5qVbA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAD35gQiChRQjxqZrx8d-hYAvfwE8TSNeRrCDOj5sD7DKRS=xtw@mail.gmail.com>

Hi Deborah

Very few people would believe there is correlation between planetary cycles
and the stockmarket  however this is known to select few, for many years, I
can also visually see relationship on charts, however its hard to quantify
statically

http://astrologynewsservice.com/business/study-confirms-plan
ets-impact-stock-market-averages/

I'll forward the Excel addin later it works on Windows 7 and require
updating to Win10

The idea is to create a full and complete program in Python only, that
would import stock data, generate planetary coordinates, pre process train
then predict

I'll keep you updated

Peter



On 10 Apr 2017 9:10 p.m., "Deborah Swanson" <python at deborahswanson.net>
wrote:

> Hi Peter,
>
> I would be interested in seeing your Excel addin with customized
> planetary settings. I'd be curious what these customizations would be,
> though if they look useful I'd more likely be scavenging the code to
> rewrite it in Python and add to what I already have, rather than using
> the addin in Excel. The only thing not quite right about what I have is
> the times, which are a smidge off. This could be due to planetary
> anomalies, so I definitely would like to look at it.
>
> I totally agree with all you said about Python and more. I didn't start
> out in Python looking to replace Excel or to migrate my planetary
> project to it, those things just happened along the way. But looking
> around to see what was new and what was better than anything I'd done
> before, Python was a natural choice.
>
> I'll have to say though that I don't share your enthusiasm for modeling
> the market with planetary relationships, indeed any mathematical
> modelling of the market can easily be overall wrong, and yet complex
> enough to engage the explorer endlessly.
>
> I've analyzed a couple of these schemes to draw that conclusion, though
> it's tentative at best. Obviously there are mathematical models of the
> market that do work, but I really don't know anything about them.
>
> In this case though, I don't see the connection between planetary
> configurations and a pure physical aspect of the market for them to
> engage with. And as you may recall from somewhere, to establish
> causality you must produce the causal link between the two sets of
> events you're attempting to correlate. No matter how stunning an array
> of coincidences might be, without producing the causal link you really
> don't have anything. This is a key error that many who do statistical
> analyses tend to overlook.
>
> I looked at your CSV, but I'm not sure what you would like to add to it,
> probably because I'm totally unfamiliar with this type of project.
>
> Best in your endeavors,
>
> Deborah
>
>
> Peter Henry wrote, on Monday, April 10, 2017 11:58 AM
>
> Hi Deborah,
>
>
> Thanks your reply and interest,
>
>
> A few years ago did create a Excel addin, that extracted planetary
> coordinates from the Swisseph source code and populated excel
> spreadsheet  This Marco addin had customized planetary settings of which
> was  useful
>
>
> Currently now learning to program in Python as it  is flexible, popular
> for machine learning and data science. The idea the planetary coordinate
> can help with timing stock commodity and Forex markets, as both freely
> trading markets and planetary  movement adhere to natural law
>
>
> Neural networks can also assist in extracting relationship information
> between markets and planetary positions.
>
>
> Whilst waiting for a solution  can you advise of an efficient way of
> producing a a CSV file similar to the file attached, only planetary data
> required
>
>
>
>
> Many thanks
>
>
> Peter
>
>
> On 10 April 2017 at 02:52, Deborah Swanson <python at deborahswanson.net>
> wrote:
>
> Peter Henry wrote, on Sunday, April 09, 2017 10:53 AM
> >
> > I have a package that has been altered to imported in to
> > python, however I tired to get is working but without success
> > I be missing something obvious
> >
> > The Swiss Ephemeris enable planetary coordinate  to be
> > imported and used in your program
> >
> > Files access https://pypi.python.org/pypi/pyswisseph
> >
> > Many thanks in advance
> >
> > Peter
>
> I've also worked on the problem of getting sweph into Python and have
> mostly struck out so far myself.
>
> I found one reliable means to get sweph's planetary data into Python,
> but it's more or less a cheat. Nonetheless, if you want to see how much
> good it does you, try the Swiss Ephemeris Test Page at
> http://www.astro.com/swisseph/swetest.htm. If you can successfully
> formulate a query useful to your purposes, you can download a csv of
> results, read it into Python, and work from there. Right now I'm working
> on converting some Excel spreadsheets and Excel VBA I use into Python
> and recoding it all, using the CSVs for jumping off points. That works
> pretty well, except the times from swetest are off a bit and I haven't
> figured out why. But I'm concentrating on getting all my VBA code ported
> to Python, and will go back to getting bang on data from sweph after I
> have my code done.
>
> The first thing I tried was to get sweph's C source code into a free
> IDE, but that whole project went down in flames. You can read bits and
> pieces of that misadventure at the tail end of the "Python application
> launcher (for Python code)" thread. I found sweph's C source code at
> some link off "Programming interface to the Swiss Ephemeris" at
> http://www.astro.com/swisseph/swephprg.htm (or maybe it was on
> http://www.astro.com/swisseph/swephinfo_e.htm - I can't easily find it
> now, but the download link is in one of those two pages somewhere.)
>
> Then I tried picking through sweph's C source code, attempting to
> manually reproduce the logic and the calculations in Python. That was a
> highly qualified semi-success because the times were still off, but it
> essentially produces the most basic planetary data. The swetest output
> CSVs were more complete however, and easy to read the planetary data
> into Python from, so I'd pretty much abandoned efforts to "translate"
> the C source code. And now, all my efforts to leverage the C source
> code. Even if successful it would be a lot more time sunk into working
> with a language other than Python, which I likely wouldn't have a use
> for after this project is completed.
>
> However, I have seen bits here and there on this list that are at least
> interesting. Tim Chase mentioned in passing that he encapsulated C
> source code in a class, which may bear looking into. Lutz Horn also gave
> a link for building a Python module to add a C language library to
> Python, which also might be worth checking out:
> https://docs.python.org/3/extending/index.html (I changed the 2 to a 3
> from the link he gave, but you can change it back to 2 if your working
> in a build of Python 2.)
>
> But many thanks for your pypi link to pyswisseph, which I will check
> out. I can reply to this thread after I give it a shot and tell you what
> I think of it. But like I said earlier, that won't be until all my Excel
> VBA code, which jumps off from the sweph bare planetary data, is ported
> to Python and working. Could be awhile yet. And if pyswisseph doesn't
> pan out, I'll likely work on refining the two methods I have for
> producing the planetary data, both of which are only lacking precisely
> accurate time data in my local time, and both are off by only 5-30
> minutes. I easily limped along for years with my Excel spread sheets
> using the swetest CSVs for input, even though my times then were more
> than a day off.
>
> Good luck! (and this venture is a goodly portion of luck...)
>
> Deborah
>
> PS. I've been using medical astrology to look ahead at my medical
> condition for years in advance. And being off by a day or so doesn't
> matter that much when you're looking at trends over the course of years
> and decades. I also have a little software widget to look at the
> planetary data in graphical chart form at any particular second, also
> based on sweph, which has been quite astoundingly accurate in following
> the rather complex kaleidoscope of my symptoms during the course of a
> day. (Though it doesn't do you a bit of good if you forget to look!
> Which is my entire motivation to get it encoded and available with a few
> clicks.) And it is quite useful to know in advance what will be
> happening when, and most importantly when it will stop. Knowledge is
> power!
>
> Caveat. This kind of precision and accuracy is only found in the
> specific forms of astrology which relate to pure physical phenomena, and
> most of what you see these days masquerading as astrology is pure hooey,
> almost entirely invented on  a large scale in the Middle Ages and
> flowered in the Renaissance. By pure physical phenomena, which is the
> only phenomena that is at least debatably influenced by physical
> planetary forces, I mean things like the moon's tides, sunspots, plant
> and animal activity throughout the year, and supremely, the inner
> workings of the human body, the first wholly Western medicine devised by
> the ancient Greeks. (The ancient Greek physicians are an excellent
> fallback if modern medicine is failing you - if you can find enough that
> remains today of their art.)
>
>


From python at deborahswanson.net  Mon Apr 10 18:13:10 2017
From: python at deborahswanson.net (Deborah Swanson)
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2017 15:13:10 -0700
Subject: Swiss Ephemeris
In-Reply-To: <CAD35gQiChRQjxqZrx8d-hYAvfwE8TSNeRrCDOj5sD7DKRS=xtw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <002b01d2b247$a4244bf0$27b23dae@sambora>

Hi Peter

I'm willing to believe there's a correlation between planetary cycles
and the stockmarket, if you say you see one. The question is whether
this correlation has truth value significance, or whether it's just a
set of coincidences. 

The correlation is interesting, but I fail to see the causal link, the
reason why planetary cycles necessarily have a relationship with market
movements, and without that all you have is coincidence. 

Though one could spend a great deal of time analyzing the correlation, I
have low confidence that it would be a strong and reliable correlation.
This has been the fate of many other misadventures in astrology, systems
of belief built around weak and unreliable correlations that are
sometimes right, but more often wrong, sad to say.

I don't have Windows 7 or 10. Any chance there's source code for the
addin? That's what I would be looking at anyway. ;)

Best,
Deborah



Peter Henry wrote, on Monday, April 10, 2017 1:56 PM
> 
> Hi Deborah
> 
> Very few people would believe there is correlation between 
> planetary cycles and the stockmarket  however this is known 
> to select few, for many years, I can also visually see 
> relationship on charts, however its hard to quantify statically
> 
> http://astrologynewsservice.com/business/study-confirms-plan
> ets-impact-stock-market-averages/
> 
> I'll forward the Excel addin later it works on Windows 7 and 
> require updating to Win10
> 
> The idea is to create a full and complete program in Python 
> only, that would import stock data, generate planetary 
> coordinates, pre process train then predict
> 
> I'll keep you updated
> 
> Peter
> 
> 
> 
> On 10 Apr 2017 9:10 p.m., "Deborah Swanson" 
> <python at deborahswanson.net>
> wrote:
> 
> > Hi Peter,
> >
> > I would be interested in seeing your Excel addin with customized 
> > planetary settings. I'd be curious what these 
> customizations would be, 
> > though if they look useful I'd more likely be scavenging 
> the code to 
> > rewrite it in Python and add to what I already have, rather 
> than using 
> > the addin in Excel. The only thing not quite right about 
> what I have 
> > is the times, which are a smidge off. This could be due to 
> planetary 
> > anomalies, so I definitely would like to look at it.
> >
> > I totally agree with all you said about Python and more. I didn't 
> > start out in Python looking to replace Excel or to migrate my 
> > planetary project to it, those things just happened along 
> the way. But 
> > looking around to see what was new and what was better than 
> anything 
> > I'd done before, Python was a natural choice.
> >
> > I'll have to say though that I don't share your enthusiasm for 
> > modeling the market with planetary relationships, indeed any 
> > mathematical modelling of the market can easily be overall 
> wrong, and 
> > yet complex enough to engage the explorer endlessly.
> >
> > I've analyzed a couple of these schemes to draw that conclusion, 
> > though it's tentative at best. Obviously there are 
> mathematical models 
> > of the market that do work, but I really don't know anything about 
> > them.
> >
> > In this case though, I don't see the connection between planetary 
> > configurations and a pure physical aspect of the market for them to 
> > engage with. And as you may recall from somewhere, to establish 
> > causality you must produce the causal link between the two sets of 
> > events you're attempting to correlate. No matter how 
> stunning an array 
> > of coincidences might be, without producing the causal link 
> you really 
> > don't have anything. This is a key error that many who do 
> statistical 
> > analyses tend to overlook.
> >
> > I looked at your CSV, but I'm not sure what you would like 
> to add to 
> > it, probably because I'm totally unfamiliar with this type 
> of project.
> >
> > Best in your endeavors,
> >
> > Deborah
> >
> >
> > Peter Henry wrote, on Monday, April 10, 2017 11:58 AM
> >
> > Hi Deborah,
> >
> >
> > Thanks your reply and interest,
> >
> >
> > A few years ago did create a Excel addin, that extracted planetary 
> > coordinates from the Swisseph source code and populated excel 
> > spreadsheet  This Marco addin had customized planetary settings of 
> > which was  useful
> >
> >
> > Currently now learning to program in Python as it  is flexible, 
> > popular for machine learning and data science. The idea the 
> planetary 
> > coordinate can help with timing stock commodity and Forex 
> markets, as 
> > both freely trading markets and planetary  movement adhere 
> to natural 
> > law
> >
> >
> > Neural networks can also assist in extracting relationship 
> information 
> > between markets and planetary positions.
> >
> >
> > Whilst waiting for a solution  can you advise of an 
> efficient way of 
> > producing a a CSV file similar to the file attached, only planetary 
> > data required
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Many thanks
> >
> >
> > Peter
> >
> >
> > On 10 April 2017 at 02:52, Deborah Swanson 
> <python at deborahswanson.net>
> > wrote:
> >
> > Peter Henry wrote, on Sunday, April 09, 2017 10:53 AM
> > >
> > > I have a package that has been altered to imported in to python, 
> > > however I tired to get is working but without success I 
> be missing 
> > > something obvious
> > >
> > > The Swiss Ephemeris enable planetary coordinate  to be 
> imported and 
> > > used in your program
> > >
> > > Files access https://pypi.python.org/pypi/pyswisseph
> > >
> > > Many thanks in advance
> > >
> > > Peter
> >
> > I've also worked on the problem of getting sweph into 
> Python and have 
> > mostly struck out so far myself.
> >
> > I found one reliable means to get sweph's planetary data 
> into Python, 
> > but it's more or less a cheat. Nonetheless, if you want to see how 
> > much good it does you, try the Swiss Ephemeris Test Page at 
> > http://www.astro.com/swisseph/swetest.htm. If you can successfully 
> > formulate a query useful to your purposes, you can download 
> a csv of 
> > results, read it into Python, and work from there. Right now I'm 
> > working on converting some Excel spreadsheets and Excel VBA 
> I use into 
> > Python and recoding it all, using the CSVs for jumping off points. 
> > That works pretty well, except the times from swetest are off a bit 
> > and I haven't figured out why. But I'm concentrating on 
> getting all my 
> > VBA code ported to Python, and will go back to getting bang on data 
> > from sweph after I have my code done.
> >
> > The first thing I tried was to get sweph's C source code 
> into a free 
> > IDE, but that whole project went down in flames. You can 
> read bits and 
> > pieces of that misadventure at the tail end of the "Python 
> application 
> > launcher (for Python code)" thread. I found sweph's C 
> source code at 
> > some link off "Programming interface to the Swiss Ephemeris" at 
> > http://www.astro.com/swisseph/swephprg.htm (or maybe it was on 
> > http://www.astro.com/swisseph/swephinfo_e.htm - I can't 
> easily find it 
> > now, but the download link is in one of those two pages somewhere.)
> >
> > Then I tried picking through sweph's C source code, attempting to 
> > manually reproduce the logic and the calculations in 
> Python. That was 
> > a highly qualified semi-success because the times were 
> still off, but 
> > it essentially produces the most basic planetary data. The swetest 
> > output CSVs were more complete however, and easy to read 
> the planetary 
> > data into Python from, so I'd pretty much abandoned efforts to 
> > "translate" the C source code. And now, all my efforts to 
> leverage the 
> > C source code. Even if successful it would be a lot more time sunk 
> > into working with a language other than Python, which I likely 
> > wouldn't have a use for after this project is completed.
> >
> > However, I have seen bits here and there on this list that are at 
> > least interesting. Tim Chase mentioned in passing that he 
> encapsulated 
> > C source code in a class, which may bear looking into. Lutz 
> Horn also 
> > gave a link for building a Python module to add a C 
> language library 
> > to Python, which also might be worth checking out: 
> > https://docs.python.org/3/extending/index.html (I changed 
> the 2 to a 3 
> > from the link he gave, but you can change it back to 2 if 
> your working 
> > in a build of Python 2.)
> >
> > But many thanks for your pypi link to pyswisseph, which I 
> will check 
> > out. I can reply to this thread after I give it a shot and tell you 
> > what I think of it. But like I said earlier, that won't be 
> until all 
> > my Excel VBA code, which jumps off from the sweph bare 
> planetary data, 
> > is ported to Python and working. Could be awhile yet. And if 
> > pyswisseph doesn't pan out, I'll likely work on refining the two 
> > methods I have for producing the planetary data, both of which are 
> > only lacking precisely accurate time data in my local time, 
> and both 
> > are off by only 5-30 minutes. I easily limped along for 
> years with my 
> > Excel spread sheets using the swetest CSVs for input, even 
> though my 
> > times then were more than a day off.
> >
> > Good luck! (and this venture is a goodly portion of luck...)
> >
> > Deborah
> >
> > PS. I've been using medical astrology to look ahead at my medical 
> > condition for years in advance. And being off by a day or 
> so doesn't 
> > matter that much when you're looking at trends over the course of 
> > years and decades. I also have a little software widget to 
> look at the 
> > planetary data in graphical chart form at any particular 
> second, also 
> > based on sweph, which has been quite astoundingly accurate in 
> > following the rather complex kaleidoscope of my symptoms during the 
> > course of a day. (Though it doesn't do you a bit of good if 
> you forget 
> > to look! Which is my entire motivation to get it encoded 
> and available 
> > with a few
> > clicks.) And it is quite useful to know in advance what will be
> > happening when, and most importantly when it will stop. Knowledge is
> > power!
> >
> > Caveat. This kind of precision and accuracy is only found in the 
> > specific forms of astrology which relate to pure physical 
> phenomena, 
> > and most of what you see these days masquerading as 
> astrology is pure 
> > hooey, almost entirely invented on  a large scale in the 
> Middle Ages 
> > and flowered in the Renaissance. By pure physical 
> phenomena, which is 
> > the only phenomena that is at least debatably influenced by 
> physical 
> > planetary forces, I mean things like the moon's tides, 
> sunspots, plant 
> > and animal activity throughout the year, and supremely, the inner 
> > workings of the human body, the first wholly Western 
> medicine devised 
> > by the ancient Greeks. (The ancient Greek physicians are an 
> excellent 
> > fallback if modern medicine is failing you - if you can find enough 
> > that remains today of their art.)
> >
> >
> -- 
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
> 



From python at lucidity.plus.com  Mon Apr 10 18:35:40 2017
From: python at lucidity.plus.com (Erik)
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2017 23:35:40 +0100
Subject: read in a list in a file to list
In-Reply-To: <820a9e29-25b4-baaf-c8cb-ff40b980e6ec@mail.usf.edu>
References: <5db12517-4c1a-f180-978f-533a632b8b36@mail.usf.edu>
 <mailman.0.1491676359.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <43baa05f-7cdf-4e58-a62a-1e917fea8219@googlegroups.com>
 <820a9e29-25b4-baaf-c8cb-ff40b980e6ec@mail.usf.edu>
Message-ID: <2bb54f08-7fba-dd78-d1a2-4d12568b59dc@lucidity.plus.com>

On 09/04/17 22:22, john polo wrote:
> The new attempt gives me a list, now I have to figure out how to deal
> with unwanted quotation marks and spaces.
>
> datFil =  open("apelist.txt")
> datObj =  datFil.read()
>
>
> datObj2 = datObj.replace('" ','')  #added this comment while writing
> this email: I guess I could have used 'datObj = datFil.read().replace('"
> ','')'. Can you make two replacements in the same statement, for example
> 'datObj=datFil.read().replace('" ','').replace('"','')?
>
> datObj2 = datObj2.replace('"','')  #this was here to try to get rid of "
> that didn't have a subsequent space.

John, where does your "apelist.txt" file come from? Who has decided what 
format it should be in?

If *you* get to decide that, then the best thing to do is to specify a 
format that is easy to read in in the first place - rather than 
specifying something that looks like source code and then has to be parsed.

E.g., if the file had the format:

Home sapiens
Pan troglodytes
Gorilla gorilla

(i.e., each value on a separate line with no quotes or any other 
"noise"), then the code to read that in as you have indicated you want 
is something like:

for i in open("apefile.txt").readlines():
     print("one of the apes is " + i.rstrip())

(the .rstrip() is to remove the trailing newline character - and any 
other trailing whitespace - which readlines() will include in what it 
returns).

Of course, if you don't have any control over the input file's format, 
then it looks like you (or something you delegate to) will have to do 
some sort of parsing.

E.


From python at lucidity.plus.com  Mon Apr 10 18:45:13 2017
From: python at lucidity.plus.com (Erik)
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2017 23:45:13 +0100
Subject: Python and the need for speed
In-Reply-To: <CAPTjJmq4xAt3rkONttzhqZ0byKhjrX=dHmDZn60jteOmkbia1w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <768f9a44-5d90-4756-8a99-821253a491f8@googlegroups.com>
 <CAPTjJmrMWpzGd9Lf_sa-mscvqezY01U5kDCPRh07Nuivvxo8yg@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.5.1491710256.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <58e9e519$0$1528$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <27652c6d-2cb4-4f0c-9400-6aa2a3f9f855@googlegroups.com>
 <CAPTjJmq4xAt3rkONttzhqZ0byKhjrX=dHmDZn60jteOmkbia1w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <9bdec2c0-6050-4b55-e4a0-96fcc9af6899@lucidity.plus.com>

On 10/04/17 03:23, Chris Angelico wrote:
> Okay, I have a pretty thick skin, but this is getting a bit obnoxious.
> Can you PLEASE post something that isn't just insulting me? Thanks.

Are you suggesting he should post something that insults you *and* 
others? If so, I'm up for being insulted too ;)

E.



From rosuav at gmail.com  Mon Apr 10 19:33:13 2017
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2017 09:33:13 +1000
Subject: Python and the need for speed
In-Reply-To: <9bdec2c0-6050-4b55-e4a0-96fcc9af6899@lucidity.plus.com>
References: <768f9a44-5d90-4756-8a99-821253a491f8@googlegroups.com>
 <CAPTjJmrMWpzGd9Lf_sa-mscvqezY01U5kDCPRh07Nuivvxo8yg@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.5.1491710256.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <58e9e519$0$1528$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <27652c6d-2cb4-4f0c-9400-6aa2a3f9f855@googlegroups.com>
 <CAPTjJmq4xAt3rkONttzhqZ0byKhjrX=dHmDZn60jteOmkbia1w@mail.gmail.com>
 <9bdec2c0-6050-4b55-e4a0-96fcc9af6899@lucidity.plus.com>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmr4q=annJt0QpnRx+DW8=wpkLWTfumSHOC1BnsH5pqBdA@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Apr 11, 2017 at 8:45 AM, Erik <python at lucidity.plus.com> wrote:
> On 10/04/17 03:23, Chris Angelico wrote:
>>
>> Okay, I have a pretty thick skin, but this is getting a bit obnoxious.
>> Can you PLEASE post something that isn't just insulting me? Thanks.
>
>
> Are you suggesting he should post something that insults you *and* others?
> If so, I'm up for being insulted too ;)

If he does, it might be the final thing that gets him banned from the
mailing list.

ChrisA


From steve+python at pearwood.info  Mon Apr 10 21:30:04 2017
From: steve+python at pearwood.info (Steve D'Aprano)
Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2017 11:30:04 +1000
Subject: Pound sign problem
References: <679200651.679871.1491830236809.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
 <679200651.679871.1491830236809@mail.yahoo.com>
 <mailman.19.1491830440.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <ocg5tt$ijn$1@dont-email.me>
Message-ID: <58ec319d$0$1621$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>

On Tue, 11 Apr 2017 12:50 am, Lew Pitcher wrote:

> David Shi wrote:
> 
>> In the data set, pound sign escape appears:
>> u'price_currency': u'\xa3', u'price_formatted': u'\xa3525,000',

That looks like David is using Python 2.

>> When using table.to_csv after importing pandas as pd, an error message
>> persists as follows: UnicodeEncodeError: 'ascii' codec can't encode
>> character u'\xa3' in position 0: ordinal not in range(128)
> 
> There is no "pound sign" in ASCII[1]. Try changing your target encoding to
> something other than ASCII.

Please don't encourage the use of old legacy encodings.

In 2017, unless you are reading from old legacy files created using a
non-Unicode encoding, you should just use UTF-8.



-- 
Steve
?Cheer up,? they said, ?things could be worse.? So I cheered up, and sure
enough, things got worse.



From auriocus at gmx.de  Tue Apr 11 02:14:41 2017
From: auriocus at gmx.de (Christian Gollwitzer)
Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2017 08:14:41 +0200
Subject: Python and the need for speed
In-Reply-To: <el01fmF900sU1@mid.individual.net>
References: <768f9a44-5d90-4756-8a99-821253a491f8@googlegroups.com>
 <CAPTjJmrMWpzGd9Lf_sa-mscvqezY01U5kDCPRh07Nuivvxo8yg@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.5.1491710256.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <el01fmF900sU1@mid.individual.net>
Message-ID: <ochs2o$i9b$1@dont-email.me>

Am 10.04.17 um 02:21 schrieb Gregory Ewing:
> Heck, you can write an exec() function for C if you really
> want. Run the C compiler in another process, dynamically
> load the object file and call it. Doing that would be very
> inefficient, but it wouldn't slow down the rest of your
> C code.

Actually, this thing exists and it is quite useful. tcc can be used as a 
library / JIT compiler for C. It does allow both writing to a dynamic 
library as well as creating callable functions in memory.

https://github.com/LuaDist/tcc/blob/master/libtcc.h#L64

What you can't do with it, however, is access to local variables. i.e. 
writing an exec which does this:

	int i=0;
	exec("i = 5");
	printf("%d", i); // prints 5

is impossible in C, and making it possible (via debug symbols, e.g.) 
would make the program slower, because C compilers reorder the 
instructions and assign variables to registers.

	Christian



From rustompmody at gmail.com  Tue Apr 11 02:49:55 2017
From: rustompmody at gmail.com (Rustom Mody)
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2017 23:49:55 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Swiss Ephemeris
In-Reply-To: <mailman.16.1491803796.2951.python-list@python.org>
References: <1710f867-da07-4c52-9ff5-7b349dd8e485@googlegroups.com>
 <000001d2b1bb$7f8e7950$27b23dae@sambora>
 <mailman.16.1491803796.2951.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <fa6a4548-68aa-49e1-8205-532f5c58eff7@googlegroups.com>

On Monday, April 10, 2017 at 11:26:47 AM UTC+5:30, Deborah Swanson wrote:
> The great ancients were no less endowed with intelligence than we are, they
> simply directed it to different ends.

And just when I was convinced by the all-knowers that my gpa was a monkey
you've spoilt my complacence

> ... medical astrology...

whether that is hooey or scepticism of it is hooey, I dont know
[Yeah I genuinely don't know what that term means for you]

However you may be interested in
http://blog.languager.org/2016/01/how-long.html
which is a motley collection of the incredible persistence of humans to
erroneous ways and outlooks and their damaging consequences

[Frank Admission: That list started with a discussion on this list where I 
suggested that OOP is already debunked hooey and that FP is the way forward
for programming.
To which Steven asked that since FP is at least 50 years old and has not got 
very far, what makes one think its going anywhere...
To which I wondered... Is 50 years a long time? By what standard? 
Hence that list
]


From steve at pearwood.info  Tue Apr 11 04:19:31 2017
From: steve at pearwood.info (Steven D'Aprano)
Date: 11 Apr 2017 08:19:31 GMT
Subject: Python and the need for speed
References: <768f9a44-5d90-4756-8a99-821253a491f8@googlegroups.com>
 <CAPTjJmrMWpzGd9Lf_sa-mscvqezY01U5kDCPRh07Nuivvxo8yg@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.5.1491710256.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <58e9e519$0$1528$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <CAPTjJmq4bCoXWryo5Jahh4he1_GP5LGjyKtJ1Mxs_XkNggi-6w@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.9.1491728745.2951.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <58ec9192$0$1602$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>

On Sun, 09 Apr 2017 19:05:35 +1000, Chris Angelico wrote:


> When people talk about making a restricted optimizable subset of Python,
> the implication (if not the explicit declaration) is that it's done
> strictly by removing, not by rewriting.


Maybe *some* people have a naive, if not foolish, idea that all you need 
to do to speed up CPython is to go through the C code and hit delete over 
any functions you don't want. But that's hardly a technique that is going 
to work: not only will you break features, but merely removing code 
doesn't magically make the rest of the code base faster.

At the very least, you have to re-write the code that depends on the 
features you have just removed.

If we're going to talk about speeding up Python, we ought to talk about 
*serious* approaches to the problem, not the musing of random, ignorant 
bloggers and other naive commentators. So let's look at what the experts 
have done:

PyPy: a complete re-write, with a completely different approach (JIT 
compilation).

WPython (alas, now more or less abandoned): a complete re-write of the 
virtual machine, using 16-bit "wordcodes" instead of 8 bit "bytecodes", 
nevertheless this enabled a lot of good optimizations:

http://repository.root-me.org/Programmation/Python/EN%20-%20Beyond%
20python%20bytecode.pdf

https://storage.googleapis.com/google-code-archive-downloads/v2/
code.google.com/wpython2/Cleanup%20and%20new%20optimizations%20in%
20WPython%201.1.pdf


Unladen Swallow: among other changes, added new, specialist byte-codes to 
speed up common operations.

http://qinsb.blogspot.com.au/2011/03/unladen-swallow-retrospective.html


Nuitka: a static optimizing compiler, and a complete re-write. Nuitka 
implements a number of compile-time optimizations while still keeping 
(claimed) 100% compatibility with CPython.

http://nuitka.net/doc/user-manual.html

FATPython adds compile-time name lookups, specialised functions, dead-
code elimination, constant folding and propagation to a CPython base. 

https://haypo.github.io/fat-python-status-janv12-2016.html


Cython: a *superset*, not subset, of Python.

I could continue, but you get the point. Some of these are experimental, 
like FATPython; some were production ready but abandoned because the 
community had little interest (wpython); some are actively maintained and 
used in production by many people (cython, PyPy).

The Python ecosystem is actually quite healthy, if you need to speed up 
code there are lots of solutions, and some of them are even good 
solutions. Nevertheless, it is interesting to discuss whether or not any 
of these features will go mainstream or make it into CPython.

But anyway... it's not sufficient to just delete features to speed up a 
language. You have to change implementation, and very likely add entirely 
new internal APIs for the compiler.

Creating a restricted subset of Python, and giving up compatibility with 
ordinary Python, is certainly an opinion. That's what Facebook did with 
their version of PHP. But its not the only approach.



> A couple more quotes from the article:
> 
>> It should be possible to define a subset of the Python language,
>> uninspiredly dubbed ?TurboPython?, that excludes those features that
>> stand in the way of high-performance JIT execution (or compilation).
>> Not using some of these features coincides with good design practices,
>> so it doesn?t necessarily have to be all bad.
> ...
>> Since TurboPython is a subset of Python, it will also run on Python
>> interpreters, albeit slower.
> 
> Both of these imply that the standard library of TurboPython is
> *exactly* the standard library of CPython, 

No. It doesn't say anything about the standard library. Maybe TurboPython 
has no standard library at all. The library is independent of the 
interpreter, and until somebody actually puts the effort in of writing it 
(or copying it from one repo to another), we are equally justified in 
saying any of:

- TurboPython's std lib will have 100% functional compatibility 
  with Python, only the implementation may change;

- TurboPython has no std lib, it only has the built-in types and modules,
  if you want more, you can port it yourself;

- TurboPython's std lib is a subset of the Python std lib, just as
  TurboPython itself is a subset of Python;

- TurboPython's std lib is a MILLION TIMES BETTER than Python's.


Since TurboPython doesn't exist, any of those statements are equally true.

But in a *practical* sense, for our mythical/hypothetical TurboPython to 
have a chance at going mainstream, it needs a record/struct type, which 
in Python is namedtuple. That does not necessarily mean it needs to 
exec() arbitrary code. It just needs a way to create classes dynamically.

Even Java can do that.

http://stackoverflow.com/questions/2320404/



> minus the bits that aren't
> supported. We just cut a few of those nasty dynamic features out of the
> language, and voila! it becomes faster.

That's exactly what I'm talking about. Anyone who says "voila! it becomes 
faster" and means it is too foolish to live :-)

Cutting out the dynamic features is just the first step in allowing you 
to re-write the interpreter with more optimizations. A non-optimizing 
compiler doesn't magically become optimizing just because you've deleted 
some code from the interpreter.


> (Or in this case,
> JITable.) There's nothing suggested here about reimplementing existing
> features in a different way, 

Except for common bloody sense :-P


[...]
> But again, you certainly COULD reimplement literal_eval, but then you
> have to keep your implementation accurate and up-to-date, else you risk
> bugs creeping in. It's a non-trivial task to rewrite these kinds of
> things and maintain parallel versions; 

Sure, it's not thirty seconds work, but it's not *hard* to write a parser 
that accepts a small subset of Python expressions (those involving only 
literals and a handful of built-in displays).

Are you aware that literal_eval is *not* the same code that the Python 
interpreter uses for evaluating literals? They are kept in sync manually, 
or not kept in sync as the case may be.

Python 2.7 didn't support the set display syntax even though Python did:

>>> from ast import literal_eval
>>> {1, 2}
set([1, 2])

>>> literal_eval("{1, 2}")
Traceback (most recent call last):
  File "<stdin>", line 1, in <module>
  File "/usr/lib/python2.7/ast.py", line 80, in literal_eval
    return _convert(node_or_string)
  File "/usr/lib/python2.7/ast.py", line 79, in _convert
    raise ValueError('malformed string')
ValueError: malformed string



literal_eval also had a bug that allowed it to evaluate the + and - 
operator, needed to support complex numbers:

http://stackoverflow.com/questions/40584417/why-does-ast-literal-eval5-7



The point being, while it's not *ideal* that support for evaluating 
Python literals needs to be written twice (once in the real interpreter, 
once in literal_eval) its not unusual or uncommon or a particularly 
onerous requirement.


> by calling on compile(), the
> current implementation *for free* is kept up-to-date with changes in
> CPython's grammar. 


That's incorrect. literal_eval() needs a whitelist of what's allowed, and 
a blacklist of what is allowed by the whitelist but shouldn't be. There 
may be other work needed as well. See the source code :-)

[...]
> Yes. As long as it can know when the more dynamic features are being
> used - and that's the hard part. 

Hard, but not impossible, and not that hard. Look at Nuitka and FATPython.

The thing that people forget is that not all errors are equal. There are 
two ways that the optimizing compiler can do the wrong thing:


- fail to apply an optimization when it is safe to do so;

- apply an optimization when it is unsafe to do so.


Those errors are not equivalent. In the first case, all that happens is 
that you lose an opportunity to be a little bit faster, but the executed 
code is still correct. (Or at least no less correct than what you wrote.) 
If you even notice, which you might not, it might be tricky to work out 
why the compiler isn't applying the optimization, but in principle it can 
be done and then worked around, or the compiler made a bit smarter.

For example, it might be that the compiler applies an absolutely dead-
simple rule: *any* use of eval or exec disables *all* optimizations. 
Don't like it? Then don't use eval or exec. If that's not an option for 
you, patches are welcome.

The second case is much worse. If you're lucky, the "optimized" code will 
merely crash, and you'll know it is broken. But worse, it may be subtly 
incorrect, and do the wrong thing. Calculate a *very slightly off* 
result. Or transfer funds to the wrong account, delete the wrong files, 
turn off the wrong life-support machine, that sort of thing.

The second case must be avoided at all costs. (Or at least, unless the 
programmer consents to unsafe optimizations that may change behaviour, 
such as many unsafe floating point optermizations.)

The first case merely indicates room for improvement. Patches are welcome.


> Remember, as soon as you have a single
> class implemented in Python, it could have a method injected into it
> without your knowledge. Can you detect that statically, or can you use
> the versioning of __dict__ to notice that something's been broken? What
> makes you fall back to the default implementation?

Ask Victor Stinner.

You ask these rhetorical questions as if they're major impediments, but 
they actually are more-or-less solved problems. The tricky part is just 
applying the solutions to *Python* itself. It's one thing to have a 
general strategy for optimizations, its another to apply it to a real 
language, and especially a real implementation.

But effectively, yes, I believe that dict versioning can be used to do 
this. Suppose you have code that says:

result = myinstance.method(99)


So you compile byte-code something like this pseudo-code:

    lookup myinstance
    if type(myinstance) is the expected type and neither the type 
             nor instance __dict__ have changed:
        push 99 on the stack
        JUMP TO CODE AT 123456  # original location of method's code
        return

    else:
        get myinstance
        lookup method in myinstance.__dict__
        if not found:
            lookup method in each of type(myisinstance).__mro__ or fail
        wrap the found object in MethodType
        build a set of positional and keyword arguments
        pass those positional and keyword arguments to method object
        which unpacks them and assigns to parameters
        location = look up the method's code object
        set up the book-keeping needed
        JUMP TO CODE AT location  # probably 123456 as above
        tidy up book-keeping
        return


The first case avoids a HUGE amount of work, at the cost of checking a 
couple of guards ahead of time. So the fast path becomes (say) 20% 
faster, and the slow path becomes 2% slower. Even if you take the slow 
path nine times as often as the fast path, it's still an overall win.

But you don't get that just be selecting the C code for eval() and exec() 
in your editor and pressing Delete.


-- 
Steve


From mail at timgolden.me.uk  Tue Apr 11 04:26:16 2017
From: mail at timgolden.me.uk (Tim Golden)
Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2017 09:26:16 +0100
Subject: Python and the need for speed
In-Reply-To: <CAPTjJmr4q=annJt0QpnRx+DW8=wpkLWTfumSHOC1BnsH5pqBdA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <768f9a44-5d90-4756-8a99-821253a491f8@googlegroups.com>
 <CAPTjJmrMWpzGd9Lf_sa-mscvqezY01U5kDCPRh07Nuivvxo8yg@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.5.1491710256.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <58e9e519$0$1528$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <27652c6d-2cb4-4f0c-9400-6aa2a3f9f855@googlegroups.com>
 <CAPTjJmq4xAt3rkONttzhqZ0byKhjrX=dHmDZn60jteOmkbia1w@mail.gmail.com>
 <9bdec2c0-6050-4b55-e4a0-96fcc9af6899@lucidity.plus.com>
 <CAPTjJmr4q=annJt0QpnRx+DW8=wpkLWTfumSHOC1BnsH5pqBdA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <e63e4b03-2ecc-026b-3362-74c4a727394e@timgolden.me.uk>

On 11/04/2017 00:33, Chris Angelico wrote:
> If he does, it might be the final thing that gets him banned from the
> mailing list.

A meta-note, since I happen to have seen this email come up.

I don't know about the other list moderators, but I don't personally 
follow every sprawling thread and post on the look-out for offensive 
behaviour. Can I suggest, if anyone believes that there is a case for 
suspending someone from the list, that they email the List Owner whose 
address is at the bottom of:

   https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

and point out the behaviour they believe merits suspension or a warning 
or whatever. We can then confer between ourselves and decide what action 
to take.

Thanks

TJG




From breamoreboy at gmail.com  Tue Apr 11 05:00:05 2017
From: breamoreboy at gmail.com (breamoreboy at gmail.com)
Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2017 02:00:05 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Python and the need for speed
In-Reply-To: <mailman.44.1491899163.2951.python-list@python.org>
References: <768f9a44-5d90-4756-8a99-821253a491f8@googlegroups.com>
 <CAPTjJmrMWpzGd9Lf_sa-mscvqezY01U5kDCPRh07Nuivvxo8yg@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.5.1491710256.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <58e9e519$0$1528$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <27652c6d-2cb4-4f0c-9400-6aa2a3f9f855@googlegroups.com>
 <CAPTjJmq4xAt3rkONttzhqZ0byKhjrX=dHmDZn60jteOmkbia1w@mail.gmail.com>
 <9bdec2c0-6050-4b55-e4a0-96fcc9af6899@lucidity.plus.com>
 <CAPTjJmr4q=annJt0QpnRx+DW8=wpkLWTfumSHOC1BnsH5pqBdA@mail.gmail.com>
 <e63e4b03-2ecc-026b-3362-74c4a727394e@timgolden.me.uk>
 <mailman.44.1491899163.2951.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <b37b1e07-9f1e-437c-9019-ed81ca745386@googlegroups.com>

On Tuesday, April 11, 2017 at 9:26:14 AM UTC+1, Tim Golden wrote:
> On 11/04/2017 00:33, Chris Angelico wrote:
> > If he does, it might be the final thing that gets him banned from the
> > mailing list.
> 
> A meta-note, since I happen to have seen this email come up.
> 
> I don't know about the other list moderators, but I don't personally 
> follow every sprawling thread and post on the look-out for offensive 
> behaviour. Can I suggest, if anyone believes that there is a case for 
> suspending someone from the list, that they email the List Owner whose 
> address is at the bottom of:
> 
>    https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
> 
> and point out the behaviour they believe merits suspension or a warning 
> or whatever. We can then confer between ourselves and decide what action 
> to take.
> 
> Thanks
> 
> TJG

While we're at it how do we go about changing this https://www.python.org/community/lists/ which states that "comp.lang.python is a high-volume Usenet open (not moderated) newsgroup for general discussions and questions about Python."?

Kindest regards.

Mark Lawrence.


From rosuav at gmail.com  Tue Apr 11 05:00:50 2017
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2017 19:00:50 +1000
Subject: Python and the need for speed
In-Reply-To: <e63e4b03-2ecc-026b-3362-74c4a727394e@timgolden.me.uk>
References: <768f9a44-5d90-4756-8a99-821253a491f8@googlegroups.com>
 <CAPTjJmrMWpzGd9Lf_sa-mscvqezY01U5kDCPRh07Nuivvxo8yg@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.5.1491710256.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <58e9e519$0$1528$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <27652c6d-2cb4-4f0c-9400-6aa2a3f9f855@googlegroups.com>
 <CAPTjJmq4xAt3rkONttzhqZ0byKhjrX=dHmDZn60jteOmkbia1w@mail.gmail.com>
 <9bdec2c0-6050-4b55-e4a0-96fcc9af6899@lucidity.plus.com>
 <CAPTjJmr4q=annJt0QpnRx+DW8=wpkLWTfumSHOC1BnsH5pqBdA@mail.gmail.com>
 <e63e4b03-2ecc-026b-3362-74c4a727394e@timgolden.me.uk>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmqW+dz7JAooONunFOpTbsd0djcViAvPf1QeFKocRmJRyw@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Apr 11, 2017 at 6:26 PM, Tim Golden <mail at timgolden.me.uk> wrote:
> On 11/04/2017 00:33, Chris Angelico wrote:
>>
>> If he does, it might be the final thing that gets him banned from the
>> mailing list.
>
>
> A meta-note, since I happen to have seen this email come up.
>
> I don't know about the other list moderators, but I don't personally follow
> every sprawling thread and post on the look-out for offensive behaviour. Can
> I suggest, if anyone believes that there is a case for suspending someone
> from the list, that they email the List Owner whose address is at the bottom
> of:
>
>   https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
>
> and point out the behaviour they believe merits suspension or a warning or
> whatever. We can then confer between ourselves and decide what action to
> take.
>

Thanks. At this stage, I was still at the "ask the poster himself to
kindly refrain from being offensive", but yes, that would be the next
step. (The post you're quoting is my tongue-in-cheek response to
another poster's tongue-in-cheek comment poking fun at my precise
language, which is exactly how this list behaves.)

ChrisA


From rosuav at gmail.com  Tue Apr 11 05:11:45 2017
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2017 19:11:45 +1000
Subject: Python and the need for speed
In-Reply-To: <58ec9192$0$1602$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
References: <768f9a44-5d90-4756-8a99-821253a491f8@googlegroups.com>
 <CAPTjJmrMWpzGd9Lf_sa-mscvqezY01U5kDCPRh07Nuivvxo8yg@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.5.1491710256.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <58e9e519$0$1528$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <CAPTjJmq4bCoXWryo5Jahh4he1_GP5LGjyKtJ1Mxs_XkNggi-6w@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.9.1491728745.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <58ec9192$0$1602$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmqbQ_hu5Y=HFpnrnmo3UbRvTG_pn6spRwwtGHx3Pvw11Q@mail.gmail.com>

(Picking up one small part of your email; for the most part, I believe
we are in belligerent agreement.)

On Tue, Apr 11, 2017 at 6:19 PM, Steven D'Aprano <steve at pearwood.info> wrote:
> Are you aware that literal_eval is *not* the same code that the Python
> interpreter uses for evaluating literals? They are kept in sync manually,
> or not kept in sync as the case may be.

Yes, I am; however, literal_eval starts by compiling to AST. (At
least, it does in current versions. I don't know about older
CPythons.) That means that, unless it gets completely rewritten, it
still gets *for free* all changes to the parsing of source to AST. For
example:

rosuav at sikorsky:~$ python3.5 -c "import ast;
print(ast.literal_eval('1_234_567'))"
Traceback (most recent call last):
  File "<string>", line 1, in <module>
  File "/usr/lib/python3.5/ast.py", line 46, in literal_eval
    node_or_string = parse(node_or_string, mode='eval')
  File "/usr/lib/python3.5/ast.py", line 35, in parse
    return compile(source, filename, mode, PyCF_ONLY_AST)
  File "<unknown>", line 1
    1_234_567
            ^
SyntaxError: unexpected EOF while parsing
rosuav at sikorsky:~$ python3.6 -c "import ast;
print(ast.literal_eval('1_234_567'))"
1234567

Did literal_eval get changed in 3.6 to add support for this? Nope. It
just hands the string of text to the compiler and says "give me an
AST", and then does its whitelisted walk on that. That's a pretty huge
slab of work that would have to be redone if compile() were removed
from the language. Yes, brand new language features (eg f-strings)
have to be considered and either accepted or rejected, and yes,
literal_eval does have some definitions of "literal" that aren't atoms
(eg complex numbers), necessitating some slightly more complicated
rules - but they're all derived from the AST.

That's why a "no-runtime-compilation-allowed" Python has to either
lose or manually reimplement this. I very much doubt that CPython
upstream is interested in a patch to literal_eval to make it not use
compile - it makes it slower, larger, and more work to maintain,
merely in order to remove a dependency on something that's a core
feature. Ergo TurboPython would need to be the one maintaining this
alternate literal_eval, adding significantly to the initial _and_
ongoing work of the project.

And that's why I said that removing compile() would mean that
ast.literal_eval() would go.

ChrisA


From brecht__gmane at mos6581.org  Tue Apr 11 05:56:06 2017
From: brecht__gmane at mos6581.org (Brecht Machiels)
Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2017 11:56:06 +0200
Subject: Python and the need for speed
References: <768f9a44-5d90-4756-8a99-821253a491f8@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.5.1491710256.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <58e9e519$0$1528$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <mailman.9.1491728745.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <58ec9192$0$1602$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
Message-ID: <oci97l$10u4$1@gioia.aioe.org>

On 2017-04-11 08:19:31 +0000, Steven D'Aprano said:

> On Sun, 09 Apr 2017 19:05:35 +1000, Chris Angelico wrote:
> 
>> When people talk about making a restricted optimizable subset of Python,
>> the implication (if not the explicit declaration) is that it's done
>> strictly by removing, not by rewriting.
> 
> Maybe *some* people have a naive, if not foolish, idea that all you need
> to do to speed up CPython is to go through the C code and hit delete over
> any functions you don't want. But that's hardly a technique that is going
> to work: not only will you break features, but merely removing code
> doesn't magically make the rest of the code base faster.
> 
> At the very least, you have to re-write the code that depends on the
> features you have just removed.
> 
> If we're going to talk about speeding up Python, we ought to talk about
> *serious* approaches to the problem, not the musing of random, ignorant
> bloggers and other naive commentators.

Hey! This random, ignorant blogger has feelings too! :-)
I don't know much about interpreter or compiler design, but I never 
claimed that speeding up CPython would simply be a matter of deleting 
some code. I merely suggested that approaches different from PyPy and 
other JIT compilers should be explored, since I do not feel that these 
projects are delivering satisfactory results. I am glad to see it got 
this discussion started, at the very least.

> some are actively maintained and
> used in production by many people (cython, PyPy).

Are there any statistics on PyPy usage? I'm not convinced it is being 
used widely. As far as I can tell, it really is only useful for server 
applications because of the long JIT warm-up time.

> The Python ecosystem is actually quite healthy, if you need to speed up
> code there are lots of solutions, and some of them are even good
> solutions.

There seem to be no solutions for my use case (rinohtype). DropBox and 
Google seem to agree that there are no good solutions, since they are 
moving to Go.

> Nevertheless, it is interesting to discuss whether or not any
> of these features will go mainstream or make it into CPython.

Indeed! I initially wanted to include the following in the article, but 
decided it would be too controversial. But now that I've been exposed 
as an ignorant and naive blogger, I might as well share these thoughts.

I have the feeling that a faster Python will never materialise unless 
the CPython core developers make performance a high priority. I 
understand that high performance was never a goal in CPython 
development (and Python language design!), but recent events (DropBox, 
Google) might help to reconsider that standpoint.

Here's a wild idea: consider Python 3 feature-complete. Similar to how 
Python 3 cleaned up the unicode and other warts of Python 2, Python 4 
could clean up the performance warts, but retaining the "soul" of the 
language. But that last part is a diffucult one, because it would lead 
to endless discussions of what would still be Python. So it's better to 
define an official "TurboPython" subset. This would also ensure 
backwards compatibility, but of course complicate the implementation.

But who am I (or anyone) to suggest what the CPython core developers 
should do? I can only supply food for thought.

Best regards,
Brecht



From bc at freeuk.com  Tue Apr 11 06:20:42 2017
From: bc at freeuk.com (bartc)
Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2017 11:20:42 +0100
Subject: Python and the need for speed
In-Reply-To: <58ec9192$0$1602$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
References: <768f9a44-5d90-4756-8a99-821253a491f8@googlegroups.com>
 <CAPTjJmrMWpzGd9Lf_sa-mscvqezY01U5kDCPRh07Nuivvxo8yg@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.5.1491710256.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <58e9e519$0$1528$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <CAPTjJmq4bCoXWryo5Jahh4he1_GP5LGjyKtJ1Mxs_XkNggi-6w@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.9.1491728745.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <58ec9192$0$1602$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
Message-ID: <U52HA.278135$15.112493@fx07.am4>

On 11/04/2017 09:19, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
> On Sun, 09 Apr 2017 19:05:35 +1000, Chris Angelico wrote:
>
>
>> When people talk about making a restricted optimizable subset of Python,
>> the implication (if not the explicit declaration) is that it's done
>> strictly by removing, not by rewriting.
>
>
> Maybe *some* people have a naive, if not foolish, idea that all you need
> to do to speed up CPython is to go through the C code and hit delete over
> any functions you don't want. But that's hardly a technique that is going
> to work: not only will you break features, but merely removing code
> doesn't magically make the rest of the code base faster.
>
> At the very least, you have to re-write the code that depends on the
> features you have just removed.
>
> If we're going to talk about speeding up Python, we ought to talk about
> *serious* approaches to the problem, not the musing of random, ignorant
> bloggers and other naive commentators. So let's look at what the experts
> have done:
>
> PyPy: a complete re-write, with a completely different approach (JIT
> compilation).

A massively complicated approach, that not many fully understand. It can 
give some good results, but it's no longer executing byte-code.

(Yet /I/ can get good performance, that can often match pypy, and still 
be executing a byte-code at a time. But that's because the language is 
smaller and less dynamic.)

> WPython (alas, now more or less abandoned): a complete re-write of the
> virtual machine, using 16-bit "wordcodes" instead of 8 bit "bytecodes",
> nevertheless this enabled a lot of good optimizations:

> http://repository.root-me.org/Programmation/Python/EN%20-%20Beyond%
> 20python%20bytecode.pdf

Yes, tightening up some bytecodes. But with limited results (I think up 
to 2x as fast based on their results).

Most of the projects you've listed work with the language as it is; they 
do the best they can with what's already there.

Removing stuff from the language could help, but that is not an option, 
unless you call it Python 4 and break all compatibility. At the moment, 
with:

   def fn(): print("Yes")

   exec(s)

   fn()

You can't tell if that fn call will print Yes, No, or do anything else, 
because the exec() could have redefined it.

/Adding/ things to the language might have to the way forward, but it's 
already groaning under the weight of add-ons. And you don't want a 
feature that adds clutter that is only there for performance hints.

Well, a little clutter might be OK:

  constant pi = 3.14159

Now 'pi' is /guaranteed/ to be the value you've specified (unlike 
math.pi). That sort of thing can help optimisation /and/ readability.

-- 
bartc



From jorge.conrado at cptec.inpe.br  Tue Apr 11 07:57:19 2017
From: jorge.conrado at cptec.inpe.br (jorge.conrado at cptec.inpe.br)
Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2017 08:57:19 -0300
Subject: Mcidas format
Message-ID: <c29c8b96770fff432020509cf22e2dd9@cptec.inpe.br>

Hi,

I have some data from the https://ghrc.nsstc.nasa.gov/hydro/search.pl.  
These data are the Infrared Global Geostationary Composite and
the format of this is data is Mcidas. Please anyone know how I can read 
this data using Python.

Thanks,

Conrado




From tlnarayana at gmail.com  Tue Apr 11 08:13:44 2017
From: tlnarayana at gmail.com (tlnarayana at gmail.com)
Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2017 05:13:44 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: strange behaviour when writing a large amount of data on stdout
In-Reply-To: <1132842994.301406.35960@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
References: <t4g8o15im087udq2shm7iskmujru9h4moe@4ax.com>
 <7879o1t3acnq7dq9f60pspt6rhkpkbppsv@4ax.com>
 <mailman.1091.1132766666.18701.python-list@python.org>
 <43858e09.621533618@news.oz.net>
 <1132831346.835691.254350@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com>
 <4385ce35.637961610@news.oz.net>
 <1132842994.301406.35960@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <e6a47855-3208-4846-9e3c-a41ac3442cea@googlegroups.com>

On Thursday, November 24, 2005 at 8:06:34 PM UTC+5:30, bon... at gmail.com wrote:
> Bengt Richter wrote:
> > Depends on what you run ;-) Maybe how many times buggy apps die in unusual ways.
> > Or worse, buggy drivers. Your car might have bad 4-wheel drive that you never used,
> > so you thought your car reliable ;-)
> >
> Sure, no casual toys are allowed. But this is true in general, whatever
> OS it is.

================================================================

Hi ,
I do get the same error while executing python script (test script written robotframework - issue while capturing the screenshot )

Pleas find below error:

Opening browser 'firefox' to base url 'https://onbep.agra.com/ze'
[ WARN ] Keyword 'Capture Page Screenshot' could not be run on failure: No browser is open
| FAIL |
IOError: [Errno 12] Not enough space



My Infra detais : Win10 64 bit , 4GB RAM
Any thing to be set in OS level ?

Regards,
LnT


From adecchi at gmail.com  Tue Apr 11 08:25:23 2017
From: adecchi at gmail.com (Alejandro Decchi)
Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2017 09:25:23 -0300
Subject: ldap search and Tuple
Message-ID: <CABWY4FnNHzMEQbGqCK7_R9FnNOSmr2DtMBhnfQNQjn0Q6hZtSQ@mail.gmail.com>

Dear,
I am writing to ask you which is the most profitable way, to get the last
uidNumber.
With ldap search create a tuple with a lot of values as follows:

('dc=xxx,dc=xxx,dc=xx', {'uid': ['pepe'], 'objectClass': ['inetOrgPerson',
'mailUser', 'shadowAccount', 'amavisAccount', 'shell', 'wiki'],'uidNumber':
['5555']}]

I hope you can guide me and suggest any method.

Thank you


From tlnarayana at gmail.com  Tue Apr 11 08:30:32 2017
From: tlnarayana at gmail.com (LnT)
Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2017 05:30:32 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: IOError: [Errno 12] Not enough space
Message-ID: <8199cb7a-fded-42b1-8a76-c9a2de4d7c78@googlegroups.com>

Hi,

version information

python 27
java version "1.8.0_111"
OS -Win 10 , 64Bit , 8GB RAM , 60GB HD

executing python test script (robotframework) for a we bapplication 
Application url will be invoked by Firefox 38.0

Please find below log:
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Opening browser 'firefox' to base url 'https://onbdev.nbpa.com/zae'
[ WARN ] Keyword 'Capture Page Screenshot' could not be run on failure: No browser is open
| FAIL |
IOError: [Errno 12] Not enough space
--------------------------------------------------------------------

I have cleared %TEMP% and reran the script.
But still I see this.

Could you please show me some Light ?

Regards,
LnT


From steve+python at pearwood.info  Tue Apr 11 09:32:24 2017
From: steve+python at pearwood.info (Steve D'Aprano)
Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2017 23:32:24 +1000
Subject: Python and the need for speed
References: <768f9a44-5d90-4756-8a99-821253a491f8@googlegroups.com>
 <CAPTjJmrMWpzGd9Lf_sa-mscvqezY01U5kDCPRh07Nuivvxo8yg@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.5.1491710256.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <58e9e519$0$1528$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <27652c6d-2cb4-4f0c-9400-6aa2a3f9f855@googlegroups.com>
 <CAPTjJmq4xAt3rkONttzhqZ0byKhjrX=dHmDZn60jteOmkbia1w@mail.gmail.com>
 <9bdec2c0-6050-4b55-e4a0-96fcc9af6899@lucidity.plus.com>
 <CAPTjJmr4q=annJt0QpnRx+DW8=wpkLWTfumSHOC1BnsH5pqBdA@mail.gmail.com>
 <e63e4b03-2ecc-026b-3362-74c4a727394e@timgolden.me.uk>
 <mailman.44.1491899163.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <b37b1e07-9f1e-437c-9019-ed81ca745386@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <58ecdae8$0$1602$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>

On Tue, 11 Apr 2017 07:00 pm, breamoreboy at gmail.com wrote:

> While we're at it how do we go about changing this
> https://www.python.org/community/lists/ which states that
> "comp.lang.python is a high-volume Usenet open (not moderated) newsgroup
> for general discussions and questions about Python."?

Change it to what, and why?

As it is, it is correct. comp.lang.python is a high-volume Usenet
unmoderated newsgroup for general discussions related to Python.



-- 
Steve
?Cheer up,? they said, ?things could be worse.? So I cheered up, and sure
enough, things got worse.



From piet-l at pietvanoostrum.com  Tue Apr 11 09:48:38 2017
From: piet-l at pietvanoostrum.com (Piet van Oostrum)
Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2017 15:48:38 +0200
Subject: Temporary variables in list comprehensions
References: <58730938$0$1597$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <lxbms93eqi.fsf@cochabamba.vanoostrum.org>
 <32748803-a19e-dc76-ca4c-77f31916f05d@telenet.be>
 <mailman.176.1491483997.2961.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <lx4lxv2gy1.fsf@cochabamba.vanoostrum.org>

Vincent Vande Vyvre <vincent.vande.vyvre at telenet.be> writes:

> final = [(x, y+1) for x, y in zip(e, e)]
final = [(x, x+1) for x in e]
-- 
Piet van Oostrum <piet-l at pietvanoostrum.com>
WWW: http://pietvanoostrum.com/
PGP key: [8DAE142BE17999C4]


From breamoreboy at gmail.com  Tue Apr 11 10:20:48 2017
From: breamoreboy at gmail.com (breamoreboy at gmail.com)
Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2017 07:20:48 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Python and the need for speed
In-Reply-To: <58ecdae8$0$1602$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
References: <768f9a44-5d90-4756-8a99-821253a491f8@googlegroups.com>
 <CAPTjJmrMWpzGd9Lf_sa-mscvqezY01U5kDCPRh07Nuivvxo8yg@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.5.1491710256.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <58e9e519$0$1528$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <27652c6d-2cb4-4f0c-9400-6aa2a3f9f855@googlegroups.com>
 <CAPTjJmq4xAt3rkONttzhqZ0byKhjrX=dHmDZn60jteOmkbia1w@mail.gmail.com>
 <9bdec2c0-6050-4b55-e4a0-96fcc9af6899@lucidity.plus.com>
 <CAPTjJmr4q=annJt0QpnRx+DW8=wpkLWTfumSHOC1BnsH5pqBdA@mail.gmail.com>
 <e63e4b03-2ecc-026b-3362-74c4a727394e@timgolden.me.uk>
 <mailman.44.1491899163.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <b37b1e07-9f1e-437c-9019-ed81ca745386@googlegroups.com>
 <58ecdae8$0$1602$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
Message-ID: <ee2dd6be-82c7-454b-9c6e-2d3e79b328ac@googlegroups.com>

On Tuesday, April 11, 2017 at 2:32:34 PM UTC+1, Steve D'Aprano wrote:
> On Tue, 11 Apr 2017 07:00 pm, breamoreboy wrote:
> 
> > While we're at it how do we go about changing this
> > https://www.python.org/community/lists/ which states that
> > "comp.lang.python is a high-volume Usenet open (not moderated) newsgroup
> > for general discussions and questions about Python."?
> 
> Change it to what, and why?
> 
> As it is, it is correct. comp.lang.python is a high-volume Usenet
> unmoderated newsgroup for general discussions related to Python.
> 
> -- 
> Steve
> ?Cheer up,? they said, ?things could be worse.? So I cheered up, and sure
> enough, things got worse.

So we should be welcoming back the RUE who I see is still spewing his bile?  What exactly do Tim Golden and Ethan Furman moderate on?  You can be pedantic about what is a newsgroup, or mailing list, or whatever, but to me they're one and the same thing.

Kindest regards.

Mark Lawrence.


From steve+python at pearwood.info  Tue Apr 11 10:29:33 2017
From: steve+python at pearwood.info (Steve D'Aprano)
Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2017 00:29:33 +1000
Subject: Python and the need for speed
References: <768f9a44-5d90-4756-8a99-821253a491f8@googlegroups.com>
 <CAPTjJmrMWpzGd9Lf_sa-mscvqezY01U5kDCPRh07Nuivvxo8yg@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.5.1491710256.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <58e9e519$0$1528$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <CAPTjJmq4bCoXWryo5Jahh4he1_GP5LGjyKtJ1Mxs_XkNggi-6w@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.9.1491728745.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <58ec9192$0$1602$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <CAPTjJmqbQ_hu5Y=HFpnrnmo3UbRvTG_pn6spRwwtGHx3Pvw11Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.46.1491901914.2951.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <58ece84e$0$1618$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>

On Tue, 11 Apr 2017 07:11 pm, Chris Angelico wrote:

> (Picking up one small part of your email; for the most part, I believe
> we are in belligerent agreement.)

:-)


[...]
> Did literal_eval get changed in 3.6 to add support for this? Nope. It
> just hands the string of text to the compiler and says "give me an
> AST", and then does its whitelisted walk on that. That's a pretty huge
> slab of work that would have to be redone if compile() were removed
> from the language. 

Not necessarily. You are still focused on *one specific implementation*,
where literal_eval() is written in pure Python and calls the compile()
built-in function.

But that's not the only way to solve the problem. That's implementation, not
interface. Here's another implementation:

Suppose the Python compiler/interpreter included a parser that takes a
string and compiles it to an AST. Pretty much every modern language has
that, the days of BASIC interpreters that loop over lines of source code
executing them as they go are long gone. So we need something to parse
source to AST, just so the interpreter can interpret the source code.

It just needs to exist. It doesn't have to be a public part of the language.

So the interpreter relies on this internal "compile-to-AST". And
literal_eval() can do exactly the same thing, if it is part of the
interpreter. There's no reason why literal_eval() must be written in pure
Python. It can be implemented any way you like, anywhere you like.

Obviously this requires hooking literal_eval() into the interpreter as a
built-in command. Maybe its even a single op-code in the (Turbo)Python
virtual machine. We can make the op-codes as complex as we need! The
existing op-codes range from the incredibly simple:

POP_TOP

    Removes the top-of-stack (TOS) item.


to quite complex:


SETUP_WITH(delta)

    This opcode performs several operations before a with block 
    starts. First, it loads __exit__() from the context manager
    and pushes it onto the stack for later use by WITH_CLEANUP.
    Then, __enter__() is called, and a finally block pointing to
    delta is pushed. Finally, the result of calling the enter 
    method is pushed onto the stack. The next opcode will either
    ignore it (POP_TOP), or store it in (a) variable(s) 
    (STORE_FAST, STORE_NAME, or UNPACK_SEQUENCE).

https://docs.python.org/3/library/dis.html

so there is absolutely no reason why literal_eval() cannot be a built-in
function that uses the exact same parser as the interpreter, if that's
important to you.

Just because literal_eval() has access to the interpreter's parser, doesn't
mean that there has to be a compile() builtin that can handle arbitrary
source code.


> That's why a "no-runtime-compilation-allowed" Python has to either
> lose or manually reimplement this. I very much doubt that CPython
> upstream is interested in a patch to literal_eval to make it not use
> compile - it makes it slower, larger, and more work to maintain,
> merely in order to remove a dependency on something that's a core
> feature. 

Nobody is talking about CPython removing the compile() builtin.

But if TurboPython wants to remove the compile() builtin, AND it becomes
super-popular -- maybe Google and Facebook and Apple decide to throw away
Go, PHP and Swift and move exclusively to Python *wink* -- then perhaps
Python 4.5 or 5.2 will actually include a switch to disable compile(),
exec() and eval() and enable a bunch of optimizations. Anything is
possible, if enough people want it.

*If*.


-- 
Steve
?Cheer up,? they said, ?things could be worse.? So I cheered up, and sure
enough, things got worse.



From saxri89 at gmail.com  Tue Apr 11 10:36:28 2017
From: saxri89 at gmail.com (Xristos Xristoou)
Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2017 07:36:28 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: django user images
Message-ID: <d23d7d93-8101-4395-ac33-a0d7799d99ce@googlegroups.com>

hello

if i want to create a query in django with to take all images and preview that list in html like easy work.

but if want in html page preview only the personal images where login user what changes i need in my code ?

model.py
class MyModel(models.Model):
    user = models.ForeignKey(User, unique=True)
    photo = models.ImageField(upload_to='images')


views.py

class BasicUploadView(request):
        photos_list = Photo.objects.all()
        return render(request, 'photos/basic_upload/index.html', {'photos': photos_list})


html page :

  {% for photo in photos %}
        <tr>
          <td><a href="{{ photo.file.url }}">{{ photo.file.name }}</a></td>
        </tr>
      {% endfor %}


From Jack at nichesoftsolutions.com  Tue Apr 11 10:46:30 2017
From: Jack at nichesoftsolutions.com (Jack at nichesoftsolutions.com)
Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2017 07:46:30 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Need webFOCUS Business Intelligence Developer
Message-ID: <140be24f-4ec7-4420-a105-16cba9e6c366@googlegroups.com>

Hi ,
 
Greetings from Niche software solutions .
 
?We have a new job opening for the following position, please find the job? ?description below.Please share your most recent updated resume to move forward into the process, If you are not interested please let me know if you have any friends or colleagues that who would be interested in this position

Job Title: webFOCUS Business Intelligence Developer
Location : Pittsburgh, PA
Duration : 6 Months 



Interview Mode ? Phone interview is a must & Skype or face to face interview possible to follow
 
 Need ---- 3 to 5 years' experience in the design, administration, programming, and support of an enterprise reporting environment using the WebFOCUS business intelligence platform

Job Description:

.Bachelor's degree in Computer Science, Information Systems, or related discipline preferred; equivalent experience is acceptable
.Develop and maintain reporting modules utilizing the developer and reporting tool kits within WebFOCUS
.Oracle SQL coding skills with particular attention given to detail and accuracy
.Experience in Java, JavaScript, jQuery, AJAX, HTML, XML, JSON, CSS and Visual Basic is preferred
.Utilize the administrative tools within WebFOCUS to provide end users with ad hoc and personalized reporting while maintaining a secure and cohesive environment.
.Thorough understanding of the WebFOCUS product architecture

Best Regards,

Jack Stutter
Niche Soft Solutions INC.
Direct: +1503-536-2043 
Email id: jack at nichesoftsolutions.com


From Jack at nichesoftsolutions.com  Tue Apr 11 10:49:25 2017
From: Jack at nichesoftsolutions.com (Jack at nichesoftsolutions.com)
Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2017 07:49:25 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Need webFOCUS Business Intelligence Developer
Message-ID: <a5307702-f222-4fb5-a607-b7c35d5bb000@googlegroups.com>

Hi ,
 
Greetings from Niche software solutions .
 
?We have a new job opening for the following position, please find the job? ?description below.Please share your most recent updated resume to move forward into the process, If you are not interested please let me know if you have any friends or colleagues that who would be interested in this position

Job Title: webFOCUS Business Intelligence Developer
Location : Pittsburgh, PA
Duration : 6 Months 



Interview Mode ? Phone interview is a must & Skype or face to face interview possible to follow
 
 Need ---- 3 to 5 years' experience in the design, administration, programming, and support of an enterprise reporting environment using the WebFOCUS business intelligence platform

Job Description:

.Bachelor's degree in Computer Science, Information Systems, or related discipline preferred; equivalent experience is acceptable
.Develop and maintain reporting modules utilizing the developer and reporting tool kits within WebFOCUS
.Oracle SQL coding skills with particular attention given to detail and accuracy
.Experience in Java, JavaScript, jQuery, AJAX, HTML, XML, JSON, CSS and Visual Basic is preferred
.Utilize the administrative tools within WebFOCUS to provide end users with ad hoc and personalized reporting while maintaining a secure and cohesive environment.
.Thorough understanding of the WebFOCUS product architecture

Best Regards,

Jack Stutter
Niche Soft Solutions INC.
Direct: +1503-536-2043
Email id: jack at nichesoftsolutions.com


From steve+python at pearwood.info  Tue Apr 11 10:56:33 2017
From: steve+python at pearwood.info (Steve D'Aprano)
Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2017 00:56:33 +1000
Subject: Python and the need for speed
References: <768f9a44-5d90-4756-8a99-821253a491f8@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.5.1491710256.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <58e9e519$0$1528$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <mailman.9.1491728745.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <58ec9192$0$1602$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <oci97l$10u4$1@gioia.aioe.org>
Message-ID: <58eceea2$0$1615$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>

On Tue, 11 Apr 2017 07:56 pm, Brecht Machiels wrote:

> On 2017-04-11 08:19:31 +0000, Steven D'Aprano said:
>> If we're going to talk about speeding up Python, we ought to talk about
>> *serious* approaches to the problem, not the musing of random, ignorant
>> bloggers and other naive commentators.
> 
> Hey! This random, ignorant blogger has feelings too! :-)

Hi, and welcome!

Sorry, I wasn't *specifically* referring to you, except in the sense that
you aren't a compiler expert.

The truth is, all of us in this discussion -- including me -- are "random,
ignorant commentators". I don't believe that any of us are experts at
writing compilers.

Bart is a possible exception, for some definition of "expert" -- he claims
to have written a quite fast, moderately dynamic language, but nobody else
(that I know of) has used it.

And no offence to Bart, but from his comments and questions on the list, I
think it is fair to say that whatever knowledge he has on language design
was probably state of the art thirty years ago. Bart sometimes expresses
surprise and confusion over concepts which are common in languages like
Javascript, Python, Perl, Ruby etc. These are not young languages! Python
is over 20 years old, Perl is even older. So I suspect Bart's knowledge is
probably from the 70s or 80s?

That doesn't mean it is irrelevant. But it does mean that there's a lot he
is unfamiliar with.


> I don't know much about interpreter or compiler design, but I never
> claimed that speeding up CPython would simply be a matter of deleting
> some code. 

No, that seems to be Chris' interpretation. My interpretation is that it
is "common sense" that it needs more than just pressing delete on a few
features to speed up an interpreter, and therefore for casual discussion
(as in a blog post) it goes without saying that removing features is only
the first step, not the only step.


> I merely suggested that approaches different from PyPy and 
> other JIT compilers should be explored, since I do not feel that these
> projects are delivering satisfactory results. I am glad to see it got
> this discussion started, at the very least.

I agree! I think that its wonderful that people and companies are willing to
invest time and money exploring the options.

But I also think that while making Python faster is a good goal to have, it
seems that for most people, and most companies, it isn't their priority.

For a company, if it costs $30,000 to build an experimental TurboPython
which may or may not solve your problems, and $40,000 to migrate to Go or
Javascript or something which definitely will (you hope...) solve your
problem, why wouldn't you do so?

Well, maybe because your development costs for using Go will be higher.
Maybe. But will they be higher than your maintenance costs for TurboPython?


>> some are actively maintained and
>> used in production by many people (cython, PyPy).
> 
> Are there any statistics on PyPy usage? I'm not convinced it is being
> used widely. As far as I can tell, it really is only useful for server
> applications because of the long JIT warm-up time.

You are correct: PyPy is not designed for short scripts and other
applications. The JIT warm-up is significant.


>> The Python ecosystem is actually quite healthy, if you need to speed up
>> code there are lots of solutions, and some of them are even good
>> solutions.
> 
> There seem to be no solutions for my use case (rinohtype). 

Have you tried Nuitka?


> DropBox and 
> Google seem to agree that there are no good solutions, since they are
> moving to Go.

That's a good solution! Maybe we should be writing extensions in Go, instead
of C. Or for maths-heavy work, using extensions written in Julia.

While there are advantages to using a single language, it is silly to
artificially limit yourself to a single language if you don't need to.
Python started life as a "glue language" for C and Fortran, and there are
projects and implementations like Jython for example that specifically
exist so people can call Java libraries from Python.

A hybrid code base where the heavy lifting is done in a fast but annoying
language, and the glue and infrastructure is written in Python, is a good
solution for many problems.


>> Nevertheless, it is interesting to discuss whether or not any
>> of these features will go mainstream or make it into CPython.
> 
> Indeed! I initially wanted to include the following in the article, but
> decided it would be too controversial. But now that I've been exposed
> as an ignorant and naive blogger, I might as well share these thoughts.
> 
> I have the feeling that a faster Python will never materialise unless
> the CPython core developers make performance a high priority.

I think you are both right and wrong.

You are right in the sense that none of the companies exploring Python
optimizers have wanted to carry the maintenance burden themselves. Their
aim is to prove the concept, then push it back into CPython and have the
core devs maintain it.

But you're also wrong, in the sense that you're focused on *revolutionary*
speed-ups rather than *evolutionary* optimizations. CPython is faster today
than it was in version 1.5, despite doing MUCH more. Python continues to
shave slow code off and improve performance. No, this isn't likely to make
Python ten times faster, but its performance does incrementally increase.



> I 
> understand that high performance was never a goal in CPython
> development (and Python language design!), but recent events (DropBox,
> Google) might help to reconsider that standpoint.

*shrug*

It isn't as if high-performance is a requirement for all code. And it isn't
as if Python is in any serious risk of losing popularity.

No language can expect to be popular forever. Eventually Python will be as
obsolete as or niche as COBOL, Tcl or ABC. But that day is not now.


> Here's a wild idea: consider Python 3 feature-complete. 
[...]

I think that will conflict with the many, many people who want Python to
have more features, and care more about them than speed.




-- 
Steve
?Cheer up,? they said, ?things could be worse.? So I cheered up, and sure
enough, things got worse.



From lew.pitcher at digitalfreehold.ca  Tue Apr 11 11:24:33 2017
From: lew.pitcher at digitalfreehold.ca (Lew Pitcher)
Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2017 11:24:33 -0400
Subject: Pound sign problem
References: <679200651.679871.1491830236809.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
 <679200651.679871.1491830236809@mail.yahoo.com>
 <mailman.19.1491830440.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <ocg5tt$ijn$1@dont-email.me>
 <58ec319d$0$1621$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
Message-ID: <ocis9p$1k6$1@dont-email.me>

Steve D'Aprano wrote:

> On Tue, 11 Apr 2017 12:50 am, Lew Pitcher wrote:
> 
>> David Shi wrote:
>> 
>>> In the data set, pound sign escape appears:
>>> u'price_currency': u'\xa3', u'price_formatted': u'\xa3525,000',
> 
> That looks like David is using Python 2.
> 
>>> When using table.to_csv after importing pandas as pd, an error message
>>> persists as follows: UnicodeEncodeError: 'ascii' codec can't encode
>>> character u'\xa3' in position 0: ordinal not in range(128)
>> 
>> There is no "pound sign" in ASCII[1]. Try changing your target encoding
>> to something other than ASCII.
> 
> Please don't encourage the use of old legacy encodings.

I wonder if you actually read my reply.

What in "Try changing your target encoding to something other than ASCII" is 
encouragement to use "old legacy encodings"?

> In 2017, unless you are reading from old legacy files created using a
> non-Unicode encoding, you should just use UTF-8.

Thanks for your opinion. My opinion differs.


-- 
Lew Pitcher
"In Skills, We Trust"
PGP public key available upon request




From mail at timgolden.me.uk  Tue Apr 11 11:25:43 2017
From: mail at timgolden.me.uk (Tim Golden)
Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2017 16:25:43 +0100
Subject: Moderating the list [was: Python and the need for speed]
In-Reply-To: <ee2dd6be-82c7-454b-9c6e-2d3e79b328ac@googlegroups.com>
References: <768f9a44-5d90-4756-8a99-821253a491f8@googlegroups.com>
 <CAPTjJmrMWpzGd9Lf_sa-mscvqezY01U5kDCPRh07Nuivvxo8yg@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.5.1491710256.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <58e9e519$0$1528$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <27652c6d-2cb4-4f0c-9400-6aa2a3f9f855@googlegroups.com>
 <CAPTjJmq4xAt3rkONttzhqZ0byKhjrX=dHmDZn60jteOmkbia1w@mail.gmail.com>
 <9bdec2c0-6050-4b55-e4a0-96fcc9af6899@lucidity.plus.com>
 <CAPTjJmr4q=annJt0QpnRx+DW8=wpkLWTfumSHOC1BnsH5pqBdA@mail.gmail.com>
 <e63e4b03-2ecc-026b-3362-74c4a727394e@timgolden.me.uk>
 <mailman.44.1491899163.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <b37b1e07-9f1e-437c-9019-ed81ca745386@googlegroups.com>
 <58ecdae8$0$1602$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <ee2dd6be-82c7-454b-9c6e-2d3e79b328ac@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <9fac840a-165f-789a-6631-ed913a1cdcf6@timgolden.me.uk>

On 11/04/2017 15:20, breamoreboy at gmail.com wrote:
> On Tuesday, April 11, 2017 at 2:32:34 PM UTC+1, Steve D'Aprano
> wrote:
>> On Tue, 11 Apr 2017 07:00 pm, breamoreboy wrote:
>>
>>> While we're at it how do we go about changing this
>>> https://www.python.org/community/lists/ which states that
>>> "comp.lang.python is a high-volume Usenet open (not moderated)
>>> newsgroup for general discussions and questions about Python."?
>>
>> Change it to what, and why?
>>
>> As it is, it is correct. comp.lang.python is a high-volume Usenet
>> unmoderated newsgroup for general discussions related to Python.
>>
>> -- Steve ?Cheer up,? they said, ?things could be worse.? So I
>> cheered up, and sure enough, things got worse.
>

> What exactly do Tim Golden and Ethan Furman moderate on?

We (and the other moderators) exactly moderate the mailing list. I have 
no authority over the newsgroup, and I don't know who does.

> You
> can be pedantic about what is a newsgroup, or mailing list, or
> whatever, but to me they're one and the same thing.

This is something which can cause contention as people from either side 
(mailing list <-> newsgroup) can be completely unaware that they're 
being copied to the other.

However, it's simply a technical fact: the thing which we moderate is 
the mailing list. We can control which posts make it through from the 
newsgroup by blocking them at the gateway. But the posts will continue 
to appear on comp.lang.python which is, as the description says, 
unmoderated.

TJG


From jtrtransport at gmail.com  Tue Apr 11 11:28:59 2017
From: jtrtransport at gmail.com (John Ralph)
Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2017 08:28:59 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Mcidas format
In-Reply-To: <mailman.48.1491923726.2951.python-list@python.org>
References: <c29c8b96770fff432020509cf22e2dd9@cptec.inpe.br>
 <mailman.48.1491923726.2951.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <4b609d35-0514-4d65-a072-6f4ade89af6c@googlegroups.com>

Can you provide a sample of the data and its format, please?


From rosuav at gmail.com  Tue Apr 11 11:29:57 2017
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2017 01:29:57 +1000
Subject: Pound sign problem
In-Reply-To: <ocis9p$1k6$1@dont-email.me>
References: <679200651.679871.1491830236809.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
 <679200651.679871.1491830236809@mail.yahoo.com>
 <mailman.19.1491830440.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <ocg5tt$ijn$1@dont-email.me>
 <58ec319d$0$1621$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <ocis9p$1k6$1@dont-email.me>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmrKknA2XwS6fuGX9+Qw5-87hYV8P62fN86yXkaz9B9V1w@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Apr 12, 2017 at 1:24 AM, Lew Pitcher
<lew.pitcher at digitalfreehold.ca> wrote:
>
> What in "Try changing your target encoding to something other than ASCII" is
> encouragement to use "old legacy encodings"?
>
>> In 2017, unless you are reading from old legacy files created using a
>> non-Unicode encoding, you should just use UTF-8.
>
> Thanks for your opinion. My opinion differs.

So what encoding *do* you recommend, and why is it better than UTF-8?

ChrisA


From bc at freeuk.com  Tue Apr 11 11:31:13 2017
From: bc at freeuk.com (bartc)
Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2017 16:31:13 +0100
Subject: Python and the need for speed
In-Reply-To: <58eceea2$0$1615$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
References: <768f9a44-5d90-4756-8a99-821253a491f8@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.5.1491710256.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <58e9e519$0$1528$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <mailman.9.1491728745.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <58ec9192$0$1602$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <oci97l$10u4$1@gioia.aioe.org>
 <58eceea2$0$1615$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
Message-ID: <%E6HA.723559$fZ.128741@fx41.am4>

On 11/04/2017 15:56, Steve D'Aprano wrote:

> The truth is, all of us in this discussion -- including me -- are "random,
> ignorant commentators". I don't believe that any of us are experts at
> writing compilers.
>
> Bart is a possible exception, for some definition of "expert" -- he claims
> to have written a quite fast, moderately dynamic language, but nobody else
> (that I know of) has used it.
>
> And no offence to Bart, but from his comments and questions on the list, I
> think it is fair to say that whatever knowledge he has on language design
> was probably state of the art thirty years ago. Bart sometimes expresses
> surprise and confusion over concepts which are common in languages like
> Javascript, Python, Perl, Ruby etc. These are not young languages! Python
> is over 20 years old, Perl is even older. So I suspect Bart's knowledge is
> probably from the 70s or 80s?

Yes, about then. But it means I have a lot of experience getting this 
stuff to work briskly on limited hardware, and I can identify bloat and 
inefficiency.

(My latest project is a C compiler, which currently generates asm source 
(later it will run from source like Python). But it takes 50ms to 
process a 30Kloc file that then takes 90 seconds, nearly 2000 times 
longer, to assemble into .obj. That sounds like there's something wrong 
to me with that assembler.

So I think I can question the efficiency of other people's software. My 
experience may be out of date but that 50ms - half of which is 
generating that damned asm source - was from yesterday!)

However, when the obstacle is a particular language design then the 
options are more limited. I think CPython does remarkably well given the 
language. And the official byte-code (which can do with tweaking as that 
Wpython project demonstrated).


-- 
bartc


From lew.pitcher at digitalfreehold.ca  Tue Apr 11 12:23:54 2017
From: lew.pitcher at digitalfreehold.ca (Lew Pitcher)
Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2017 12:23:54 -0400
Subject: Pound sign problem
References: <679200651.679871.1491830236809.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
 <679200651.679871.1491830236809@mail.yahoo.com>
 <mailman.19.1491830440.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <ocg5tt$ijn$1@dont-email.me>
 <58ec319d$0$1621$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <ocis9p$1k6$1@dont-email.me>
 <CAPTjJmrKknA2XwS6fuGX9+Qw5-87hYV8P62fN86yXkaz9B9V1w@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.50.1491924601.2951.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <ocivp1$emu$1@dont-email.me>

Chris Angelico wrote:

> On Wed, Apr 12, 2017 at 1:24 AM, Lew Pitcher
> <lew.pitcher at digitalfreehold.ca> wrote:
>>
>> What in "Try changing your target encoding to something other than ASCII"
>> is encouragement to use "old legacy encodings"?
>>
>>> In 2017, unless you are reading from old legacy files created using a
>>> non-Unicode encoding, you should just use UTF-8.
>>
>> Thanks for your opinion. My opinion differs.
> 
> So what encoding *do* you recommend, and why is it better than UTF-8?

I recommend whatever encoding is appropriate for the output. That's not up 
to you or me to decide; that's a question that only the OP can answer.

(Imagine, python on an IBM Zseries running ZOS; the "native" characterset is 
one of the EBCDIC variants. Would UTF-8 be a better choice there? )


-- 
Lew Pitcher
"In Skills, We Trust"
PGP public key available upon request




From steve+python at pearwood.info  Tue Apr 11 12:29:09 2017
From: steve+python at pearwood.info (Steve D'Aprano)
Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2017 02:29:09 +1000
Subject: Pound sign problem
References: <679200651.679871.1491830236809.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
 <679200651.679871.1491830236809@mail.yahoo.com>
 <mailman.19.1491830440.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <ocg5tt$ijn$1@dont-email.me>
 <58ec319d$0$1621$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <ocis9p$1k6$1@dont-email.me>
Message-ID: <58ed0457$0$1606$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>

On Wed, 12 Apr 2017 01:24 am, Lew Pitcher wrote:

[...]
>>> There is no "pound sign" in ASCII[1]. Try changing your target encoding
>>> to something other than ASCII.
>> 
>> Please don't encourage the use of old legacy encodings.
> 
> I wonder if you actually read my reply.

Of course I did.
 

> What in "Try changing your target encoding to something other than ASCII"
> is encouragement to use "old legacy encodings"?

The fact that "something other than ASCII" includes dozens of old legacy
encodings, including the most obvious one for Western Europeans coming from
a Windows environment: Latin-1.

There are only three practical choices for text: ASCII, Unicode, and legacy
encodings (or "code pages", as many people know them). TRON is effectively
only available in Japan, and even there hardly anyone uses it. (And
besides, Python doesn't support TRON.)

You've (rightly) eliminated ASCII, as the pound sign isn't available. Python
doesn't support TRON, so your instruction to the OP is logically equivalent
to "use Unicode or a legacy encoding". Its the second half of that which I
am objecting to.



>> In 2017, unless you are reading from old legacy files created using a
>> non-Unicode encoding, you should just use UTF-8.
> 
> Thanks for your opinion. My opinion differs.

What would you suggest then, if not UTF-8?

My personal favourite legacy encoding is MacRoman, but I wouldn't recommend
anyone use it except to interoperate with legacy Mac applications and/or
data from the 80s and 90s.

What's your recommendation? "Anything but ASCII"?




-- 
Steve
?Cheer up,? they said, ?things could be worse.? So I cheered up, and sure
enough, things got worse.



From steve+python at pearwood.info  Tue Apr 11 12:50:12 2017
From: steve+python at pearwood.info (Steve D'Aprano)
Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2017 02:50:12 +1000
Subject: Python and the need for speed
References: <768f9a44-5d90-4756-8a99-821253a491f8@googlegroups.com>
 <CAPTjJmrMWpzGd9Lf_sa-mscvqezY01U5kDCPRh07Nuivvxo8yg@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.5.1491710256.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <58e9e519$0$1528$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <27652c6d-2cb4-4f0c-9400-6aa2a3f9f855@googlegroups.com>
 <CAPTjJmq4xAt3rkONttzhqZ0byKhjrX=dHmDZn60jteOmkbia1w@mail.gmail.com>
 <9bdec2c0-6050-4b55-e4a0-96fcc9af6899@lucidity.plus.com>
 <CAPTjJmr4q=annJt0QpnRx+DW8=wpkLWTfumSHOC1BnsH5pqBdA@mail.gmail.com>
 <e63e4b03-2ecc-026b-3362-74c4a727394e@timgolden.me.uk>
 <mailman.44.1491899163.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <b37b1e07-9f1e-437c-9019-ed81ca745386@googlegroups.com>
 <58ecdae8$0$1602$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <ee2dd6be-82c7-454b-9c6e-2d3e79b328ac@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <58ed0946$0$1593$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>

On Wed, 12 Apr 2017 12:20 am, breamoreboy at gmail.com wrote:

> So we should be welcoming back the RUE who I see is still spewing his
> bile? 

The only one I see "spewing bile" is you.

wxjmfauth's ignorant, stupid opinions about Python's handling of Unicode are
just silly. Why are you taking it so personally? There's no need to invent
a sarcastic name for him, or to falsely accuse him of "spewing bile", or to
keep going on and on and on about him every time he pops his head up.


> You can be pedantic about what is a newsgroup, or mailing list, or
> whatever, but to me they're one and the same thing. 

Like wxjmfauth, we're all entitled to hold whatever ignorant and silly
opinions we like, there's no law against it. (Acting on, or expressing,
those opinions may be treated differently.)

But the fact is that the mailing list and newsgroup are NOT one and the same
thing, and never will be. This is a true fact, not a false fact. They
cannot be the same thing: they use different technologies, with different
organising principles, and are controlled by different people. The mailing
list is controlled by the PSF; the newsgroup is not.

(It's arguable whether *anyone* controls the newsgroup, except in the sense
that individual system administrators on individual News servers have some
power over what passes through their own server. But that's it.)

http://www.ou.edu/research/electron/internet/use-faq.htm

I don't know why you're so uptight over jmf, but like it or not, there's
nothing you can do to keep him of Usenet. Deal with it.



-- 
Steve
?Cheer up,? they said, ?things could be worse.? So I cheered up, and sure
enough, things got worse.



From python.list at tim.thechases.com  Tue Apr 11 12:55:06 2017
From: python.list at tim.thechases.com (Tim Chase)
Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2017 11:55:06 -0500
Subject: Pound sign problem
In-Reply-To: <58ed0457$0$1606$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
References: <679200651.679871.1491830236809.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
 <679200651.679871.1491830236809@mail.yahoo.com>
 <mailman.19.1491830440.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <ocg5tt$ijn$1@dont-email.me>
 <58ec319d$0$1621$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <ocis9p$1k6$1@dont-email.me>
 <58ed0457$0$1606$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
Message-ID: <20170411115506.30b6847e@bigbox.christie.dr>

On 2017-04-12 02:29, Steve D'Aprano wrote:
> >> In 2017, unless you are reading from old legacy files created
> >> using a non-Unicode encoding, you should just use UTF-8.  
> > 
> > Thanks for your opinion. My opinion differs.  
> 
> What would you suggest then, if not UTF-8?
> 
> My personal favourite legacy encoding is MacRoman, but I wouldn't
> recommend anyone use it except to interoperate with legacy Mac
> applications and/or data from the 80s and 90s.
> 
> What's your recommendation? "Anything but ASCII"?

Heh, how about "Unicode as ASCII-compatible-Python-strings"? ;-)

Got this from Peter Otten a while back in response to my request for
functionality something like this.

http://www.mail-archive.com/python-list at python.org/msg420100.html

-tkc



$ cat codecs_mynamereplace.py
# -*- coding: utf-8 -*-
import codecs
import unicodedata

try:
    codecs.namereplace_errors
except AttributeError:
    print("using mynamereplace")
    def mynamereplace(exc):
        return u"".join(
            "\\N{%s}" % unicodedata.name(c)
            for c in exc.object[exc.start:exc.end]
        ), exc.end
    codecs.register_error("namereplace", mynamereplace)


print(u"ma?ana".encode("ascii", "namereplace").decode())
$ python3.5 codecs_mynamereplace.py
ma\N{LATIN SMALL LETTER N WITH TILDE}ana
$ python3.4 codecs_mynamereplace.py
using mynamereplace
ma\N{LATIN SMALL LETTER N WITH TILDE}ana
$ python2.7 codecs_mynamereplace.py
using mynamereplace
ma\N{LATIN SMALL LETTER N WITH TILDE}ana


From irmen.NOSPAM at xs4all.nl  Tue Apr 11 13:11:26 2017
From: irmen.NOSPAM at xs4all.nl (Irmen de Jong)
Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2017 19:11:26 +0200
Subject: IOError: [Errno 12] Not enough space
In-Reply-To: <8199cb7a-fded-42b1-8a76-c9a2de4d7c78@googlegroups.com>
References: <8199cb7a-fded-42b1-8a76-c9a2de4d7c78@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <58ed0e3c$0$829$e4fe514c@news.xs4all.nl>

On 11-4-2017 14:30, LnT wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> version information
> 
> python 27

Please be more precise, there is no Python 27. (Yeah it is clear you meant 2.7 but still)

> java version "1.8.0_111"
That should not be relevant

> OS -Win 10 , 64Bit , 8GB RAM , 60GB HD

60 GB is not a lot of space for windows...


> executing python test script (robotframework) for a we bapplication 
> Application url will be invoked by Firefox 38.0
> 
> Please find below log:
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
> Opening browser 'firefox' to base url 'https://onbdev.nbpa.com/zae'
> [ WARN ] Keyword 'Capture Page Screenshot' could not be run on failure: No browser is open
> | FAIL |
> IOError: [Errno 12] Not enough space
> --------------------------------------------------------------------

That's not much information. Is there really not anything else in the log? Like a
traceback, that may give some clues what the application is doing when it is running out
of disk space?


> 
> I have cleared %TEMP% and reran the script.
> But still I see this.
> 
> Could you please show me some Light ?
> 

Based on the info you provided, the only solution I can think of is: free more space.
Something in your application is trying to write stuff and there's simply not enough
space on the disk to do so.


-i




From rosuav at gmail.com  Tue Apr 11 13:26:24 2017
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2017 03:26:24 +1000
Subject: Pound sign problem
In-Reply-To: <ocivp1$emu$1@dont-email.me>
References: <679200651.679871.1491830236809.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
 <679200651.679871.1491830236809@mail.yahoo.com>
 <mailman.19.1491830440.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <ocg5tt$ijn$1@dont-email.me>
 <58ec319d$0$1621$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <ocis9p$1k6$1@dont-email.me>
 <CAPTjJmrKknA2XwS6fuGX9+Qw5-87hYV8P62fN86yXkaz9B9V1w@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.50.1491924601.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <ocivp1$emu$1@dont-email.me>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmoQ_awHank+Afsr9ZCB5ABvrM20YmDQNF+oiKuNE3bi5A@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Apr 12, 2017 at 2:23 AM, Lew Pitcher
<lew.pitcher at digitalfreehold.ca> wrote:
> Chris Angelico wrote:
>
>> On Wed, Apr 12, 2017 at 1:24 AM, Lew Pitcher
>> <lew.pitcher at digitalfreehold.ca> wrote:
>>>
>>> What in "Try changing your target encoding to something other than ASCII"
>>> is encouragement to use "old legacy encodings"?
>>>
>>>> In 2017, unless you are reading from old legacy files created using a
>>>> non-Unicode encoding, you should just use UTF-8.
>>>
>>> Thanks for your opinion. My opinion differs.
>>
>> So what encoding *do* you recommend, and why is it better than UTF-8?
>
> I recommend whatever encoding is appropriate for the output. That's not up
> to you or me to decide; that's a question that only the OP can answer.
>
> (Imagine, python on an IBM Zseries running ZOS; the "native" characterset is
> one of the EBCDIC variants. Would UTF-8 be a better choice there? )

So if the OP needed to print out a number, would you take a similarly
spineless approach and say that only the OP can decide what numeric
base to use? Does every fledgeling programmer need to understand about
archaic systems where you needed to use BCD for your numbers? EBCDIC
derives from BCD, where a single decimal digit was encoded in four
bits... and I'm sure you could name systems even less popular, used on
important systems back in the 1960s or so. Does a modern Python
programmer need to look through all of those possible ways to
represent numbers? NO. Today's programmer should need to know about
very few ways to represent numbers, in priority order:

1) Decimal digits represented in ASCII
2) Packed binary, network byte order
3) Packed binary, little-endian.

A new programmer shouldn't need to worry about anything other than
decimal digits, in fact. Of course other systems do exist, like the
MIDI "variable length integer" that packs seven bits into a byte and
then uses the high bit as a continuation marker; or IEEE 80-bit
floating point, or a multi-limb format like GMP uses, but until you
actually need to work with it, you don't need to know about it.

Just use the one most obvious encoding. UTF-8 for all text.

ChrisA


From tjreedy at udel.edu  Tue Apr 11 13:26:54 2017
From: tjreedy at udel.edu (Terry Reedy)
Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2017 13:26:54 -0400
Subject: Mcidas format
In-Reply-To: <c29c8b96770fff432020509cf22e2dd9@cptec.inpe.br>
References: <c29c8b96770fff432020509cf22e2dd9@cptec.inpe.br>
Message-ID: <51e3082b-b256-41fd-2dfa-ded37d41aa84@udel.edu>

On 4/11/2017 7:57 AM, jorge.conrado at cptec.inpe.br wrote:

> I have some data from the https://ghrc.nsstc.nasa.gov/hydro/search.pl.
> These data are the Infrared Global Geostationary Composite and
> the format of this is data is Mcidas. Please anyone know how I can read
> this data using Python.

Search 'python mcidas'.  Google's first few responses suggest two 
approaches:

1. Python interface to existing mcidas viewers.

2. Mcidas plugin for pillow (image manipulation package) that defines
class McIdasImageFile(ImageFile.ImageFile)
https://github.com/python-pillow/Pillow/blob/master/PIL/McIdasImagePlugin.py
It reads and decodes the 256 byte header and defines attributes needed 
for pillow to read the data.  It handles three different mcidas formats.

There appears to be an mcidas user group.

-- 
Terry Jan Reedy



From no.email at nospam.invalid  Tue Apr 11 13:39:51 2017
From: no.email at nospam.invalid (Paul Rubin)
Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2017 10:39:51 -0700
Subject: Python and the need for speed
References: <768f9a44-5d90-4756-8a99-821253a491f8@googlegroups.com>
 <CAPTjJmrMWpzGd9Lf_sa-mscvqezY01U5kDCPRh07Nuivvxo8yg@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.5.1491710256.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <58e9e519$0$1528$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <CAPTjJmq4bCoXWryo5Jahh4he1_GP5LGjyKtJ1Mxs_XkNggi-6w@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.9.1491728745.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <58ec9192$0$1602$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
Message-ID: <87a87mn8rc.fsf@nightsong.com>

Steven D'Aprano <steve at pearwood.info> writes:
> If we're going to talk about speeding up Python, we ought to talk about 
> *serious* approaches to the problem, not the musing of random, ignorant 
> bloggers and other naive commentators. So let's look at what the experts 
> have done: .... [list snipped]

You might look at MicroPython too (micropython.org).  A fairly complete
Python 3 implementation with some ahead-of-time compiling, no fancy
JIT.  Completely breaks the Python C API though.

Or you could look at the past 50 years(!) of Lisp and Scheme compilers
some of which produce very good code, ask what Python features can't be
straightforwardly transliterated into Lisp to use those compilers, then
ask whether those features are really important to the average Python
user.  I don't even think eval is an obstacle.  Lots of Lisp systems
implement eval by handing expression off to the compiler and then
running the compiled code, maybe with a bit of caching like Python and
compiled regexps.

I remember thinking PyPy made a mistake in trying to preserve all of
Python's dynamism, and Python 3 made a mistake in trying to preserve so
much compatibility with Python 2 while still breaking minor things.  I
thought PyPy should have been "TurboPython" that broke lots more Python
2 stuff than Python 3 did, but was as you say maybe 20x faster.  Then
Python 3 could have been skipped.  For a while I thought something like
that could become Python 4, but the readout of Python 3 seems to be that
its slow uptake came from those minor breaks, so Python 4 won't have
even the slightest incompatibility with Python 3 code.

I still do my everyday stuff in Python and I'd like to get more
conversant with stuff like numpy, but it feels like an old-fashioned
language these days.


From steve+python at pearwood.info  Tue Apr 11 14:06:02 2017
From: steve+python at pearwood.info (Steve D'Aprano)
Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2017 04:06:02 +1000
Subject: Pound sign problem
References: <679200651.679871.1491830236809.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
 <679200651.679871.1491830236809@mail.yahoo.com>
 <mailman.19.1491830440.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <ocg5tt$ijn$1@dont-email.me>
 <58ec319d$0$1621$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <ocis9p$1k6$1@dont-email.me>
 <CAPTjJmrKknA2XwS6fuGX9+Qw5-87hYV8P62fN86yXkaz9B9V1w@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.50.1491924601.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <ocivp1$emu$1@dont-email.me>
Message-ID: <58ed1b0d$0$1593$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>

On Wed, 12 Apr 2017 02:23 am, Lew Pitcher wrote:

> I recommend whatever encoding is appropriate for the output. 

There are multiple encodings that are appropriate for ASCII + pound sign.
How should the OP choose between them without guidance? If he understood
the issue well enough to make an informed decision, he wouldn't have needed
to ask for help.


> That's not up 
> to you or me to decide; that's a question that only the OP can answer.

Nobody is asking you to *decide*. But you can make a recommendation. Do you
really think that the OP is capable of making an informed decision about
this issue on his own? If he was, he wouldn't have needed to ask for help
solving this problem in the first place.

If you're going to help, actually *help*, and don't just pretend to help:

"Hi, I'm a stranger in town and I'm trying to get to the post office. What's
the best way for me to get there please?"

"Well, that depends on whether you're flying the Space Shuttle, travelling
by sailing ship, dog sled, or advanced alien hyperdrive. You should take
whatever route is most appropriate for your transportation. You're
welcome."

I'm sorry to be so negative when you're only trying to be helpful, but I too
have been on the receiving end of poor-quality "advice" that leaves me just
as much in the dark as before I asked the question, so I'm quite sensitive
to it.

"What should I do here?"

"Do whatever you see fit."

(I'm not specifically referring to this community, just making a general
observation.)



> (Imagine, python on an IBM Zseries running ZOS; 

I can imagine many unlikely things that have come to pass, but that's not
one of them.

The OP is using Pandas, which requires Python 2.7 or better.

https://pypi.python.org/pypi/pandas

There is an unofficial, unmaintained(?), third-party port of Python 2.4 to
Z/OS, which appears to have had no attention for more than a decade.

http://www.teaser.fr/~jymengant/mvspython/mvsPythonPort.html


I suppose it is just barely within the realm of possibility that the OP has
hacked together his own port of Python 2.7 and Pandas to Z/OS. If so, he'd
have already had to deal with some much bigger problems relating to ASCII
versus EBCDIC, and if he managed to solve that, it's unlikely that he'd be
puzzled by a pound sign in his data.

But... even if I grant you your scenario that he's running on Big Iron, that
is irrelevant! Using Unicode for his data files is still the better idea.


> the "native" characterset 
> is one of the EBCDIC variants. Would UTF-8 be a better choice there? )

Yes it would.

The OP is using Unicode strings so regardless of the OS's native character
set, it is better to use Unicode rather than some 8-bit encoding. Today the
OP needs a pound sign. Tomorrow he may need a Greek ?, yen sign, CJK
ideograph, or Arabic character. Possibly all in the same document. Using
legacy encodings, whether based on EBCDIC or ASCII, should be avoided.



-- 
Steve
?Cheer up,? they said, ?things could be worse.? So I cheered up, and sure
enough, things got worse.



From grant.b.edwards at gmail.com  Tue Apr 11 14:42:03 2017
From: grant.b.edwards at gmail.com (Grant Edwards)
Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2017 18:42:03 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: Python and the need for speed
References: <768f9a44-5d90-4756-8a99-821253a491f8@googlegroups.com>
 <CAPTjJmrMWpzGd9Lf_sa-mscvqezY01U5kDCPRh07Nuivvxo8yg@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.5.1491710256.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <58e9e519$0$1528$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <CAPTjJmq4bCoXWryo5Jahh4he1_GP5LGjyKtJ1Mxs_XkNggi-6w@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.9.1491728745.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <58ec9192$0$1602$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <87a87mn8rc.fsf@nightsong.com>
Message-ID: <ocj81q$rfj$1@blaine.gmane.org>

On 2017-04-11, Paul Rubin <no.email at nospam.invalid> wrote:

> You might look at MicroPython too (micropython.org).  A fairly complete
> Python 3 implementation with some ahead-of-time compiling, no fancy
> JIT.  Completely breaks the Python C API though.

I didn't know there was such a thing as "The Python C API".

Or do you just mean that the C API is different than that chosen by
the developers of https://github.com/python/cpython?

-- 
Grant Edwards               grant.b.edwards        Yow! I'm DESPONDENT ... I
                                  at               hope there's something
                              gmail.com            DEEP-FRIED under this
                                                   miniature DOMED STADIUM ...



From rosuav at gmail.com  Tue Apr 11 14:54:48 2017
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2017 04:54:48 +1000
Subject: Python and the need for speed
In-Reply-To: <ocj81q$rfj$1@blaine.gmane.org>
References: <768f9a44-5d90-4756-8a99-821253a491f8@googlegroups.com>
 <CAPTjJmrMWpzGd9Lf_sa-mscvqezY01U5kDCPRh07Nuivvxo8yg@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.5.1491710256.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <58e9e519$0$1528$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <CAPTjJmq4bCoXWryo5Jahh4he1_GP5LGjyKtJ1Mxs_XkNggi-6w@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.9.1491728745.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <58ec9192$0$1602$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <87a87mn8rc.fsf@nightsong.com> <ocj81q$rfj$1@blaine.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmrBHKxUoPOHExROu4u8tQzxLMPWzXEJYxVQr7P4JLpk-w@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Apr 12, 2017 at 4:42 AM, Grant Edwards
<grant.b.edwards at gmail.com> wrote:
> On 2017-04-11, Paul Rubin <no.email at nospam.invalid> wrote:
>
>> You might look at MicroPython too (micropython.org).  A fairly complete
>> Python 3 implementation with some ahead-of-time compiling, no fancy
>> JIT.  Completely breaks the Python C API though.
>
> I didn't know there was such a thing as "The Python C API".
>
> Or do you just mean that the C API is different than that chosen by
> the developers of https://github.com/python/cpython?

Do you mean this?

https://docs.python.org/3/c-api/intro.html

ChrisA


From grant.b.edwards at gmail.com  Tue Apr 11 15:19:37 2017
From: grant.b.edwards at gmail.com (Grant Edwards)
Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2017 19:19:37 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: Python and the need for speed
References: <768f9a44-5d90-4756-8a99-821253a491f8@googlegroups.com>
 <CAPTjJmrMWpzGd9Lf_sa-mscvqezY01U5kDCPRh07Nuivvxo8yg@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.5.1491710256.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <58e9e519$0$1528$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <CAPTjJmq4bCoXWryo5Jahh4he1_GP5LGjyKtJ1Mxs_XkNggi-6w@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.9.1491728745.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <58ec9192$0$1602$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <87a87mn8rc.fsf@nightsong.com> <ocj81q$rfj$1@blaine.gmane.org>
 <CAPTjJmrBHKxUoPOHExROu4u8tQzxLMPWzXEJYxVQr7P4JLpk-w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <ocja89$4vk$1@blaine.gmane.org>

On 2017-04-11, Chris Angelico <rosuav at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Wed, Apr 12, 2017 at 4:42 AM, Grant Edwards
><grant.b.edwards at gmail.com> wrote:
>> On 2017-04-11, Paul Rubin <no.email at nospam.invalid> wrote:
>>
>>> You might look at MicroPython too (micropython.org).  A fairly complete
>>> Python 3 implementation with some ahead-of-time compiling, no fancy
>>> JIT.  Completely breaks the Python C API though.
>>
>> I didn't know there was such a thing as "The Python C API".
>>
>> Or do you just mean that the C API is different than that chosen by
>> the developers of https://github.com/python/cpython?
>
> Do you mean this?
>
> https://docs.python.org/3/c-api/intro.html

I think so.  That's the C API for one particlar implementation of
Python "CPython", right?

There is no "Python" C API specified as part of the language
definition is there?

-- 
Grant Edwards               grant.b.edwards        Yow! LOOK!!  Sullen
                                  at               American teens wearing
                              gmail.com            MADRAS shorts and "Flock of
                                                   Seagulls" HAIRCUTS!



From rosuav at gmail.com  Tue Apr 11 15:24:06 2017
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2017 05:24:06 +1000
Subject: Python and the need for speed
In-Reply-To: <ocja89$4vk$1@blaine.gmane.org>
References: <768f9a44-5d90-4756-8a99-821253a491f8@googlegroups.com>
 <CAPTjJmrMWpzGd9Lf_sa-mscvqezY01U5kDCPRh07Nuivvxo8yg@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.5.1491710256.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <58e9e519$0$1528$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <CAPTjJmq4bCoXWryo5Jahh4he1_GP5LGjyKtJ1Mxs_XkNggi-6w@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.9.1491728745.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <58ec9192$0$1602$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <87a87mn8rc.fsf@nightsong.com> <ocj81q$rfj$1@blaine.gmane.org>
 <CAPTjJmrBHKxUoPOHExROu4u8tQzxLMPWzXEJYxVQr7P4JLpk-w@mail.gmail.com>
 <ocja89$4vk$1@blaine.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmq3D58UY_qdpVKe5YCbgN97fqC+er3QgnHjfh+q5Ty6zA@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Apr 12, 2017 at 5:19 AM, Grant Edwards
<grant.b.edwards at gmail.com> wrote:
> On 2017-04-11, Chris Angelico <rosuav at gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Wed, Apr 12, 2017 at 4:42 AM, Grant Edwards
>><grant.b.edwards at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> On 2017-04-11, Paul Rubin <no.email at nospam.invalid> wrote:
>>>
>>>> You might look at MicroPython too (micropython.org).  A fairly complete
>>>> Python 3 implementation with some ahead-of-time compiling, no fancy
>>>> JIT.  Completely breaks the Python C API though.
>>>
>>> I didn't know there was such a thing as "The Python C API".
>>>
>>> Or do you just mean that the C API is different than that chosen by
>>> the developers of https://github.com/python/cpython?
>>
>> Do you mean this?
>>
>> https://docs.python.org/3/c-api/intro.html
>
> I think so.  That's the C API for one particlar implementation of
> Python "CPython", right?
>
> There is no "Python" C API specified as part of the language
> definition is there?

Oh, I see what you mean.

That is indeed correct - there is no language-level API specification
- but it's linguistically redundant to say "the CPython C API", so
it's often not said that way.

ChrisA


From grant.b.edwards at gmail.com  Tue Apr 11 15:47:47 2017
From: grant.b.edwards at gmail.com (Grant Edwards)
Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2017 19:47:47 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: Python and the need for speed
References: <768f9a44-5d90-4756-8a99-821253a491f8@googlegroups.com>
 <CAPTjJmrMWpzGd9Lf_sa-mscvqezY01U5kDCPRh07Nuivvxo8yg@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.5.1491710256.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <58e9e519$0$1528$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <CAPTjJmq4bCoXWryo5Jahh4he1_GP5LGjyKtJ1Mxs_XkNggi-6w@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.9.1491728745.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <58ec9192$0$1602$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <87a87mn8rc.fsf@nightsong.com> <ocj81q$rfj$1@blaine.gmane.org>
 <CAPTjJmrBHKxUoPOHExROu4u8tQzxLMPWzXEJYxVQr7P4JLpk-w@mail.gmail.com>
 <ocja89$4vk$1@blaine.gmane.org>
 <CAPTjJmq3D58UY_qdpVKe5YCbgN97fqC+er3QgnHjfh+q5Ty6zA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <ocjbt2$39e$1@blaine.gmane.org>

On 2017-04-11, Chris Angelico <rosuav at gmail.com> wrote:

>>> Do you mean this?
>>>
>>> https://docs.python.org/3/c-api/intro.html
>>
>> I think so.  That's the C API for one particlar implementation of
>> Python "CPython", right?
>>
>> There is no "Python" C API specified as part of the language
>> definition is there?
>
> Oh, I see what you mean.
>
> That is indeed correct - there is no language-level API specification
> - but it's linguistically redundant to say "the CPython C API", so
> it's often not said that way.

If there are now other Python implementations (e.g. MicroPython) with
C APIs that differ from CPython, then it seems like it is no longer
redundant to say "the CPython API".

-- 
Grant Edwards               grant.b.edwards        Yow! I know how to do
                                  at               SPECIAL EFFECTS!!
                              gmail.com            



From rosuav at gmail.com  Tue Apr 11 15:55:51 2017
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2017 05:55:51 +1000
Subject: Python and the need for speed
In-Reply-To: <ocjbt2$39e$1@blaine.gmane.org>
References: <768f9a44-5d90-4756-8a99-821253a491f8@googlegroups.com>
 <CAPTjJmrMWpzGd9Lf_sa-mscvqezY01U5kDCPRh07Nuivvxo8yg@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.5.1491710256.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <58e9e519$0$1528$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <CAPTjJmq4bCoXWryo5Jahh4he1_GP5LGjyKtJ1Mxs_XkNggi-6w@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.9.1491728745.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <58ec9192$0$1602$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <87a87mn8rc.fsf@nightsong.com> <ocj81q$rfj$1@blaine.gmane.org>
 <CAPTjJmrBHKxUoPOHExROu4u8tQzxLMPWzXEJYxVQr7P4JLpk-w@mail.gmail.com>
 <ocja89$4vk$1@blaine.gmane.org>
 <CAPTjJmq3D58UY_qdpVKe5YCbgN97fqC+er3QgnHjfh+q5Ty6zA@mail.gmail.com>
 <ocjbt2$39e$1@blaine.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmpfMhCogeNgR+LHFR=52VOz5cJo5HBziLVCU=nrFP2YHQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Apr 12, 2017 at 5:47 AM, Grant Edwards
<grant.b.edwards at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> If there are now other Python implementations (e.g. MicroPython) with
> C APIs that differ from CPython, then it seems like it is no longer
> redundant to say "the CPython API".

I don't think there are. They either implement (some subset of) the
CPython API, or they're not in C (eg Jython), or they don't offer an
extension API. I don't know of anything else that offers a C API.

ChrisA


From abhishek.physics01 at gmail.com  Tue Apr 11 16:35:28 2017
From: abhishek.physics01 at gmail.com (Abhishek Kumar)
Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2017 13:35:28 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Inclusion of of python and python libraries licensed with BSD- 3
 clause license in proprietary software
Message-ID: <a78de867-9924-4e6a-8128-676e53e6d1aa@googlegroups.com>

Hello,

I tried finding the answer but even the lawyers  in my town have no idea about it and searching the web leaved me puzzled.
I am planning to make a software in python which will include libraries  licensed under BSD- 3 clause. Can I sell this software  under proprietary  license and legally inhibit redistribution by users under my own license.
Also if you know anyone who holds knowledge in this field then please do let me know.. 
Your response will be really helpful.

Regards,
Abhishek Kumar
?


From rosuav at gmail.com  Tue Apr 11 16:53:29 2017
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2017 06:53:29 +1000
Subject: Inclusion of of python and python libraries licensed with BSD- 3
 clause license in proprietary software
In-Reply-To: <a78de867-9924-4e6a-8128-676e53e6d1aa@googlegroups.com>
References: <a78de867-9924-4e6a-8128-676e53e6d1aa@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmoswr-ShJGbHNTE91KZZU-eM90WAFJuc9NbG3X8RWwO+g@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Apr 12, 2017 at 6:35 AM, Abhishek Kumar
<abhishek.physics01 at gmail.com> wrote:
> I tried finding the answer but even the lawyers  in my town have no idea about it and searching the web leaved me puzzled.
> I am planning to make a software in python which will include libraries  licensed under BSD- 3 clause. Can I sell this software  under proprietary  license and legally inhibit redistribution by users under my own license.
> Also if you know anyone who holds knowledge in this field then please do let me know..
> Your response will be really helpful.

Firstly, if you're simply writing a Python program, the license terms
of the Python interpreter don't matter. Your code is completely
independent, and you can closed-source it while still running it under
Python itself. Similarly, if all you're doing with those BSD-licensed
libraries is importing them, there's no problem there.

Things become a bit more complicated if you're *distributing* the
overall package - if you're creating a single installer that installs
Python, these third-party libraries, and your proprietary software. If
that bothers you, the easiest way is to simply provide installation
instructions that say "install Python from python.org yada yada", or
check with a lawyer about exactly how you're packaging everything up.

But mainly, you don't have to worry too much about the license terms
of the language interpreter, because you can run your code on a
different interpreter perfectly easily.

ChrisA


From mikhailwas at gmail.com  Tue Apr 11 16:58:34 2017
From: mikhailwas at gmail.com (Mikhail V)
Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2017 22:58:34 +0200
Subject: Python and the need for speed
In-Reply-To: <58eceea2$0$1615$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
References: <768f9a44-5d90-4756-8a99-821253a491f8@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.5.1491710256.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <58e9e519$0$1528$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <mailman.9.1491728745.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <58ec9192$0$1602$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <oci97l$10u4$1@gioia.aioe.org>
 <58eceea2$0$1615$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
Message-ID: <CAE6NSRD=xU_mNECNBU2w92Br=vgHJJVqSruGFrPB=vrbpkj0Nw@mail.gmail.com>

On 11 April 2017 at 16:56, Steve D'Aprano <steve+python at pearwood.info> wrote:
> On Tue, 11 Apr 2017 07:56 pm, Brecht Machiels wrote:
>
>[...]
>
>> DropBox and
>> Google seem to agree that there are no good solutions, since they are
>> moving to Go.
>
> That's a good solution! Maybe we should be writing extensions in Go, instead
> of C. Or for maths-heavy work, using extensions written in Julia.

Just my curiosity, I've always been intersted in such question: are devs
still writing extensions in C, I mean type in C code? Aren't they using
some translator or IDE which at lest hides the brackets and semicolons?
I personally don't have problems with understanding low-level
concepts of programming, but I find it pretty hard to see
through the mangroves of brackets, asterisks and Co.


Mikhail


From abhishek.physics01 at gmail.com  Tue Apr 11 17:03:05 2017
From: abhishek.physics01 at gmail.com (Abhishek Kumar)
Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2017 14:03:05 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Inclusion of of python and python libraries licensed with BSD- 3
 clause license in proprietary software
In-Reply-To: <mailman.59.1491944018.2951.python-list@python.org>
References: <a78de867-9924-4e6a-8128-676e53e6d1aa@googlegroups.com>
 <CAPTjJmoswr-ShJGbHNTE91KZZU-eM90WAFJuc9NbG3X8RWwO+g@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.59.1491944018.2951.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <0c24af77-8ef3-4d79-a680-b27bc0d0a2e0@googlegroups.com>

On Wednesday, 12 April 2017 02:23:53 UTC+5:30, Chris Angelico  wrote:
> On Wed, Apr 12, 2017 at 6:35 AM, Abhishek Kumar
>  wrote:
> > I tried finding the answer but even the lawyers  in my town have no idea about it and searching the web leaved me puzzled.
> > I am planning to make a software in python which will include libraries  licensed under BSD- 3 clause. Can I sell this software  under proprietary  license and legally inhibit redistribution by users under my own license.
> > Also if you know anyone who holds knowledge in this field then please do let me know..
> > Your response will be really helpful.
> 
> Firstly, if you're simply writing a Python program, the license terms
> of the Python interpreter don't matter. Your code is completely
> independent, and you can closed-source it while still running it under
> Python itself. Similarly, if all you're doing with those BSD-licensed
> libraries is importing them, there's no problem there.
> 
> Things become a bit more complicated if you're *distributing* the
> overall package - if you're creating a single installer that installs
> Python, these third-party libraries, and your proprietary software. If
> that bothers you, the easiest way is to simply provide installation
> instructions that say "install Python from python.org yada yada", or
> check with a lawyer about exactly how you're packaging everything up.
> 
> But mainly, you don't have to worry too much about the license terms
> of the language interpreter, because you can run your code on a
> different interpreter perfectly easily.
> 
> ChrisA

thanks for your response I am planning to distribute as a stand alone package (fro windows .exe). Should I worry about the license in this case?!
Like I mentioned lawyers in my town have little or no idea about open source ..
regards,
Abhishek 


From grant.b.edwards at gmail.com  Tue Apr 11 17:10:23 2017
From: grant.b.edwards at gmail.com (Grant Edwards)
Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2017 21:10:23 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: Python and the need for speed
References: <768f9a44-5d90-4756-8a99-821253a491f8@googlegroups.com>
 <CAPTjJmrMWpzGd9Lf_sa-mscvqezY01U5kDCPRh07Nuivvxo8yg@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.5.1491710256.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <58e9e519$0$1528$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <CAPTjJmq4bCoXWryo5Jahh4he1_GP5LGjyKtJ1Mxs_XkNggi-6w@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.9.1491728745.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <58ec9192$0$1602$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <87a87mn8rc.fsf@nightsong.com> <ocj81q$rfj$1@blaine.gmane.org>
 <CAPTjJmrBHKxUoPOHExROu4u8tQzxLMPWzXEJYxVQr7P4JLpk-w@mail.gmail.com>
 <ocja89$4vk$1@blaine.gmane.org>
 <CAPTjJmq3D58UY_qdpVKe5YCbgN97fqC+er3QgnHjfh+q5Ty6zA@mail.gmail.com>
 <ocjbt2$39e$1@blaine.gmane.org>
 <CAPTjJmpfMhCogeNgR+LHFR=52VOz5cJo5HBziLVCU=nrFP2YHQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <ocjgnv$3aq$1@blaine.gmane.org>

On 2017-04-11, Chris Angelico <rosuav at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Wed, Apr 12, 2017 at 5:47 AM, Grant Edwards
><grant.b.edwards at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> If there are now other Python implementations (e.g. MicroPython) with
>> C APIs that differ from CPython, then it seems like it is no longer
>> redundant to say "the CPython API".
>
> I don't think there are. They either implement (some subset of) the
> CPython API, or they're not in C (eg Jython), or they don't offer an
> extension API. I don't know of anything else that offers a C API.

Now I'm really confused.  If micropython doesn't have a C API that
differs from the CPython C API, then how does it "break the C API"?

-- 
Grant Edwards               grant.b.edwards        Yow! I smell like a wet
                                  at               reducing clinic on Columbus
                              gmail.com            Day!



From rosuav at gmail.com  Tue Apr 11 17:14:01 2017
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2017 07:14:01 +1000
Subject: Inclusion of of python and python libraries licensed with BSD- 3
 clause license in proprietary software
In-Reply-To: <0c24af77-8ef3-4d79-a680-b27bc0d0a2e0@googlegroups.com>
References: <a78de867-9924-4e6a-8128-676e53e6d1aa@googlegroups.com>
 <CAPTjJmoswr-ShJGbHNTE91KZZU-eM90WAFJuc9NbG3X8RWwO+g@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.59.1491944018.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <0c24af77-8ef3-4d79-a680-b27bc0d0a2e0@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmpj7PELuq6GgnBNwiiEyYFtY0j7hyHSVCS62+Katn44Pg@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Apr 12, 2017 at 7:03 AM, Abhishek Kumar
<abhishek.physics01 at gmail.com> wrote:
> thanks for your response I am planning to distribute as a stand alone package (fro windows .exe). Should I worry about the license in this case?!
> Like I mentioned lawyers in my town have little or no idea about open source ..

Yes, in the sense that you should talk to a lawyer. It's going to
depend on how clearly you separate your code from other people's code.

You can get further advice from this list, but be aware that this is
NOT binding legal advice. I am not a lawyer, nor are most of the
people here, and even if one of us is, we're not _your_ lawyer and may
not be in your jurisdiction.

ChrisA


From mikhailwas at gmail.com  Tue Apr 11 17:30:05 2017
From: mikhailwas at gmail.com (Mikhail V)
Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2017 23:30:05 +0200
Subject: Pound sign problem
In-Reply-To: <679200651.679871.1491830236809@mail.yahoo.com>
References: <679200651.679871.1491830236809.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
 <679200651.679871.1491830236809@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <CAE6NSRABrA_on0Czy2QNOPgmVEWEcQTM3aDZODVYGYf-=n-NXg@mail.gmail.com>

On 10 April 2017 at 15:17, David Shi via Python-list
<python-list at python.org> wrote:
> In the data set, pound sign escape appears:
> u'price_currency': u'\xa3', u'price_formatted': u'\xa3525,000',
> When using table.to_csv after importing pandas as pd, an error message persists as follows:
> UnicodeEncodeError: 'ascii' codec can't encode character u'\xa3' in position 0: ordinal not in range(128)
>

The error indicates clearly that you have a character which is not part
of the standard ASCII range, hence the message : "ordinal not in range(128)"
To understand it better, try to imagine characters as numbers and that basic
ASCII defines characters in this range.
see http://www.ascii-code.com/
So the pound character is out this range, its ordinal is being read by
your program as #a3 in hex (#163 in decimal). So *probably* your data
originally is in Latin-1 encoding,

First , you should find out where the data comes from:
is it text file, or some input, then in which application and
encoding was it created.

To get rid of errors, I'd say there are 2 common strategies:
ensure that all source data is saved in Unicode (save as UTF-8)
Or, replace the pound sign with something which is
representable in standard ASCII, e.g. replace the
pound sign with "GBP" in sources.

Otherwise, you must find out which encoding is
used in source data and apply re-encoding
accordingly to input-output format specification.


From python at mrabarnett.plus.com  Tue Apr 11 17:45:52 2017
From: python at mrabarnett.plus.com (MRAB)
Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2017 22:45:52 +0100
Subject: Python and the need for speed
In-Reply-To: <CAE6NSRD=xU_mNECNBU2w92Br=vgHJJVqSruGFrPB=vrbpkj0Nw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <768f9a44-5d90-4756-8a99-821253a491f8@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.5.1491710256.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <58e9e519$0$1528$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <mailman.9.1491728745.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <58ec9192$0$1602$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <oci97l$10u4$1@gioia.aioe.org>
 <58eceea2$0$1615$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <CAE6NSRD=xU_mNECNBU2w92Br=vgHJJVqSruGFrPB=vrbpkj0Nw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <891a3ea1-ac39-ba0f-97d9-899cf676f935@mrabarnett.plus.com>

On 2017-04-11 21:58, Mikhail V wrote:
> On 11 April 2017 at 16:56, Steve D'Aprano <steve+python at pearwood.info> wrote:
>> On Tue, 11 Apr 2017 07:56 pm, Brecht Machiels wrote:
>>
>>[...]
>>
>>> DropBox and
>>> Google seem to agree that there are no good solutions, since they are
>>> moving to Go.
>>
>> That's a good solution! Maybe we should be writing extensions in Go, instead
>> of C. Or for maths-heavy work, using extensions written in Julia.
> 
> Just my curiosity, I've always been intersted in such question: are devs
> still writing extensions in C, I mean type in C code? Aren't they using
> some translator or IDE which at lest hides the brackets and semicolons?
> I personally don't have problems with understanding low-level
> concepts of programming, but I find it pretty hard to see
> through the mangroves of brackets, asterisks and Co.
> 
The regex module does the matching using code written in C.


From rantingrickjohnson at gmail.com  Tue Apr 11 17:58:18 2017
From: rantingrickjohnson at gmail.com (Rick Johnson)
Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2017 14:58:18 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Python and the need for speed
In-Reply-To: <ftIGA.712083$fZ.318697@fx41.am4>
References: <768f9a44-5d90-4756-8a99-821253a491f8@googlegroups.com>
 <CAPTjJmrMWpzGd9Lf_sa-mscvqezY01U5kDCPRh07Nuivvxo8yg@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.5.1491710256.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <W8vGA.379049$dI6.117383@fx31.am4>
 <42aabf19-6054-4da4-8d7d-ea4802d2d3be@googlegroups.com>
 <ftIGA.712083$fZ.318697@fx41.am4>
Message-ID: <758f9589-532e-4467-9ffc-d77ce9d3a524@googlegroups.com>

On Monday, April 10, 2017 at 4:43:52 AM UTC-5, bartc wrote:
> On 10/04/2017 03:40, Rick Johnson wrote:
> > On Sunday, April 9, 2017 at 1:34:39 PM UTC-5, bartc wrote:
>
> > > I have my own interpreted language which I call
> > > 'dynamic', but compared with Python, code in it might as
> > > well be set in concrete.
> >
> > Is this a personal toy, or something that you can share a
> > link to?
>
> It's a personal thing but not a toy. Some more info here:

Thanks for link bartc, i'll have a look.

> Yes. I suppose when it gets to a point where there are so
> many features anyway, adding a few more makes little
> difference!

Indeed. "A drop in the bucket" comes to mind. ;-)


From rantingrickjohnson at gmail.com  Tue Apr 11 18:02:48 2017
From: rantingrickjohnson at gmail.com (Rick Johnson)
Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2017 15:02:48 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Python and the need for speed
In-Reply-To: <mailman.18.1491827120.2951.python-list@python.org>
References: <768f9a44-5d90-4756-8a99-821253a491f8@googlegroups.com>
 <CAPTjJmrMWpzGd9Lf_sa-mscvqezY01U5kDCPRh07Nuivvxo8yg@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.5.1491710256.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <el01fmF900sU1@mid.individual.net>
 <CAE6NSRDLV5_f6uuUoX8EL0Y-6AiFT3wcw_UrQ50oFDwFJ8YAPw@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.18.1491827120.2951.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <a7ded978-42fe-43f3-ad75-c94e13f67dad@googlegroups.com>

On Monday, April 10, 2017 at 7:25:48 AM UTC-5, Mikhail V wrote:
> Still I miss some old school features in Python, e.g.
> "goto" statement would be very useful in some cases. 

Are you serious?

> I know it is considered bad style to use goto, but in some
> cases it is just most natural thing to use.

"Natural"? If you're programming from inside a spaghetti
bowl, i suppose.



From rantingrickjohnson at gmail.com  Tue Apr 11 18:15:04 2017
From: rantingrickjohnson at gmail.com (Rick Johnson)
Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2017 15:15:04 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Python and the need for speed
In-Reply-To: <mailman.42.1491864501.2951.python-list@python.org>
References: <768f9a44-5d90-4756-8a99-821253a491f8@googlegroups.com>
 <CAPTjJmrMWpzGd9Lf_sa-mscvqezY01U5kDCPRh07Nuivvxo8yg@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.5.1491710256.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <58e9e519$0$1528$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <27652c6d-2cb4-4f0c-9400-6aa2a3f9f855@googlegroups.com>
 <CAPTjJmq4xAt3rkONttzhqZ0byKhjrX=dHmDZn60jteOmkbia1w@mail.gmail.com>
 <9bdec2c0-6050-4b55-e4a0-96fcc9af6899@lucidity.plus.com>
 <mailman.42.1491864501.2951.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <5bba9295-f5f6-47f4-ab31-9c3b062af235@googlegroups.com>

On Monday, April 10, 2017 at 5:48:30 PM UTC-5, Erik wrote:
> On 10/04/17 03:23, Chris Angelico wrote:
> > Okay, I have a pretty thick skin, but this is getting a
> > bit obnoxious. Can you PLEASE post something that isn't
> > just insulting me? Thanks.
> 
> Are you suggesting he should post something that insults
> you *and* others?

Oh, don't take Chris so seriously. He's not offended. He's
just one of those infants who utilizes pity in hopes that
mummy will come save him from the scary world of free
speech. Perhaps Chris would be happier if we created a py-
safe-zone for him: complete with coloring books, a petting
zoo and CNN running fake news stories that Hillary actually
won the election. Yep, that should pacify him for a while.

> If so, I'm up for being insulted too ;)

Sorry, but i don't insult people unless they deserve it.
(psst: try to be less nice and less intelligent, and then
_maybe_ i'll insult you.) Of course, in the end, you must
decide whether you have been insulted, or not. As a third
party, i have no control over other people's emotions.


From rantingrickjohnson at gmail.com  Tue Apr 11 18:42:47 2017
From: rantingrickjohnson at gmail.com (Rick Johnson)
Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2017 15:42:47 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Python and the need for speed
In-Reply-To: <oci97l$10u4$1@gioia.aioe.org>
References: <768f9a44-5d90-4756-8a99-821253a491f8@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.5.1491710256.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <58e9e519$0$1528$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <mailman.9.1491728745.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <58ec9192$0$1602$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <oci97l$10u4$1@gioia.aioe.org>
Message-ID: <ba1c8a70-7f22-4122-86da-3bc8ca2a1810@googlegroups.com>

On Tuesday, April 11, 2017 at 4:56:27 AM UTC-5, Brecht Machiels wrote:
> On 2017-04-11 08:19:31 +0000, Steven D'Aprano said:
>
> > On Sun, 09 Apr 2017 19:05:35 +1000, Chris Angelico wrote:

[...]

> > The Python ecosystem is actually quite healthy, if you
> > need to speed up code there are lots of solutions, and
> > some of them are even good solutions.
>
> There seem to be no solutions for my use case (rinohtype).
> DropBox and Google seem to agree that there are no good
> solutions, since they are moving to Go.

Yup!

> > Nevertheless, it is interesting to discuss whether or not
> > any of these features will go mainstream or make it into
> > CPython.
>
> Indeed! I initially wanted to include the following in the
> article, but decided it would be too controversial. But now
> that I've been exposed as an ignorant and naive blogger, I
> might as well share these thoughts.

I love this guy! ;-)

> I have the feeling that a faster Python will never
> materialise unless the CPython core developers make
> performance a high priority. I understand that high
> performance was never a goal in CPython development (and
> Python language design!), but recent events (DropBox,
> Google) might help to reconsider that standpoint.

The fact that both Google *AND* DropBox are ignoring Python,
must be devastating to GvR, however, for us at least, this
emotional devastation may help to explain why Python is
evolving in such a strange direction.

> Here's a wild idea: consider Python 3 feature-complete.
> Similar to how Python 3 cleaned up the unicode and other
> warts of Python 2, Python 4 could clean up the performance
> warts, but retaining the "soul" of the language. But that
> last part is a diffucult one, because it would lead to
> endless discussions of what would still be Python. So it's
> better to define an official "TurboPython" subset. This
> would also ensure backwards compatibility, but of course
> complicate the implementation.

I've been hinting at that for years, to no avail.

> But who am I (or anyone) to suggest what the CPython core
> developers should do?

Do you write Python code? If so, then you have a right to
both speak and to be heard.



From mikhailwas at gmail.com  Tue Apr 11 19:04:27 2017
From: mikhailwas at gmail.com (Mikhail V)
Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2017 01:04:27 +0200
Subject: Python and the need for speed
In-Reply-To: <a7ded978-42fe-43f3-ad75-c94e13f67dad@googlegroups.com>
References: <768f9a44-5d90-4756-8a99-821253a491f8@googlegroups.com>
 <CAPTjJmrMWpzGd9Lf_sa-mscvqezY01U5kDCPRh07Nuivvxo8yg@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.5.1491710256.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <el01fmF900sU1@mid.individual.net>
 <CAE6NSRDLV5_f6uuUoX8EL0Y-6AiFT3wcw_UrQ50oFDwFJ8YAPw@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.18.1491827120.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <a7ded978-42fe-43f3-ad75-c94e13f67dad@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <CAE6NSRCWPpWpUJYS2RmeU4aN9Qb8fnV=TvY+50JyLA5cC2Yezw@mail.gmail.com>

On 12 April 2017 at 00:02, Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohnson at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Monday, April 10, 2017 at 7:25:48 AM UTC-5, Mikhail V wrote:
>> Still I miss some old school features in Python, e.g.
>> "goto" statement would be very useful in some cases.
>
> Are you serious?

Not so serious to think it is needed much.
And it easy enough to imagine where it
would be more readable than setting up flags and if-blocks
just to jump along the script.

n.d., it reminds me also about the discussion about
exiting from nested loops.


From mikhailwas at gmail.com  Tue Apr 11 19:17:47 2017
From: mikhailwas at gmail.com (Mikhail V)
Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2017 01:17:47 +0200
Subject: Python and the need for speed
In-Reply-To: <891a3ea1-ac39-ba0f-97d9-899cf676f935@mrabarnett.plus.com>
References: <768f9a44-5d90-4756-8a99-821253a491f8@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.5.1491710256.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <58e9e519$0$1528$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <mailman.9.1491728745.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <58ec9192$0$1602$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <oci97l$10u4$1@gioia.aioe.org>
 <58eceea2$0$1615$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <CAE6NSRD=xU_mNECNBU2w92Br=vgHJJVqSruGFrPB=vrbpkj0Nw@mail.gmail.com>
 <891a3ea1-ac39-ba0f-97d9-899cf676f935@mrabarnett.plus.com>
Message-ID: <CAE6NSRAmSZ2x4rFRfw=3OxSpYbQPBz_ghzihZ+kzB=O+S7WCUw@mail.gmail.com>

On 11 April 2017 at 23:45, MRAB <python at mrabarnett.plus.com> wrote:
> On 2017-04-11 21:58, Mikhail V wrote:
>>
>> On 11 April 2017 at 16:56, Steve D'Aprano <steve+python at pearwood.info>
>> wrote:
>>>
>>> On Tue, 11 Apr 2017 07:56 pm, Brecht Machiels wrote:
>>>
>>> [...]
>>>
>>>> DropBox and
>>>> Google seem to agree that there are no good solutions, since they are
>>>> moving to Go.
>>>
>>>
>>> That's a good solution! Maybe we should be writing extensions in Go,
>>> instead
>>> of C. Or for maths-heavy work, using extensions written in Julia.
>>
>>
>> Just my curiosity, I've always been intersted in such question: are devs
>> still writing extensions in C, I mean type in C code? Aren't they using
>> some translator or IDE which at lest hides the brackets and semicolons?
>> I personally don't have problems with understanding low-level
>> concepts of programming, but I find it pretty hard to see
>> through the mangroves of brackets, asterisks and Co.
>>
> The regex module does the matching using code written in C.

That is tough... I feel like a sissy with my humanistic readability
ideas. And those monospaced, green-on-black texts...

(not trolling, I just have have rich imagination)


From python at deborahswanson.net  Tue Apr 11 19:18:24 2017
From: python at deborahswanson.net (Deborah Swanson)
Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2017 16:18:24 -0700
Subject: Swiss Ephemeris
In-Reply-To: <fa6a4548-68aa-49e1-8205-532f5c58eff7@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <00dd01d2b319$eb9c77a0$27b23dae@sambora>

Rustom Mody wrote, on Monday, April 10, 2017 11:50 PM
> 
> On Monday, April 10, 2017 at 11:26:47 AM UTC+5:30, Deborah Swanson
wrote:
> > The great ancients were no less endowed with intelligence than we
are, 
> > they simply directed it to different ends.
> 
> And just when I was convinced by the all-knowers that my gpa 
> was a monkey you've spoilt my complacence

Good! It's unhealthy the way modern folk strut around thinking they're
the smartest humans to ever walk this earth. We've gone farther with
technology than any other time or culture, but invention (and
innovation) is only one aspect of intelligence.

> > ... medical astrology...
> 
> whether that is hooey or scepticism of it is hooey, I dont 
> know [Yeah I genuinely don't know what that term means for you]

I don't know that anyone does. I use a very strict interpretation of the
orginal rules that you won't by find googling "medical astrology". (I
know, I've tried, in the old Google as well as the new.) There's no
pretension to mystic art in my form, but mine's a lot more accurate and
information rich, so far as I can see in the few writings about it. I
think concentrating on the actual and valid relationships while ignoring
all the mysticism yields more useful results. I know the ancient Greeks
were wed to their gods and I forgive them for that. I just think they
would have done better without the mythology.

> However you may be interested in 
> http://blog.languager.org/2016/01/how-long.html
> which is a > motley collection of the incredible 
> persistence of humans to erroneous ways and outlooks and 
> their damaging consequences

I think you also talk about the incredible persistence of other concepts
and perceptions, notably in music and mathematics (which were always
linked in earlier times).

I would find your other examples of erroneous thinking a bit skewed in
lengths of time. Tofler was right in Future Shock. We've accelerated our
intellectual development since the Middle Ages, though I don't think
it's because we're any smarter. I can't remember exactly when it was
that the human brain reached it's current size and mental capacity, but
it was shortly before the time of the ancients. Physiologically we've
changed very little since then, but the knowledge base we've built on
over time was what eventually caused the acceleration. No single person
in modern times is intellectually capable of buiding the concepts we now
use from scratch. We stand on the shoulders of giants.

> [Frank Admission: That list started with a discussion on this list
where I 
> suggested that OOP is already debunked hooey and that FP is 
> the way forward for programming. To which Steven asked that 
> since FP is at least 50 years old and has not got 
> very far, what makes one think its going anywhere...
> To which I wondered... Is 50 years a long time? By what standard? 
> Hence that list ]

50 years isn't that long, though you must consider the accelerated times
we're living in. LISP is likely doomed though. It's chief claim to fame
was AI, and it's unlikely to reclaim its former glory, not with
languages like Python leading the charge.  My only contact with LISP was
from a computer science professor in 1975, who literally raved about how
superior LISP was. I dunno. I was doing AI in PL1 then and had several
debates with this fellow. I don't remember much of the substance of
those debates, but I know he never persuaded me that LISP was superior
to PL1.

Deborah



From rantingrickjohnson at gmail.com  Tue Apr 11 19:31:16 2017
From: rantingrickjohnson at gmail.com (Rick Johnson)
Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2017 16:31:16 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Python and the need for speed
In-Reply-To: <58eceea2$0$1615$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
References: <768f9a44-5d90-4756-8a99-821253a491f8@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.5.1491710256.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <58e9e519$0$1528$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <mailman.9.1491728745.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <58ec9192$0$1602$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <oci97l$10u4$1@gioia.aioe.org>
 <58eceea2$0$1615$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
Message-ID: <423b78ac-3e72-45d3-a7d9-88feeb47a291@googlegroups.com>

On Tuesday, April 11, 2017 at 9:56:45 AM UTC-5, Steve D'Aprano wrote:
> On Tue, 11 Apr 2017 07:56 pm, Brecht Machiels wrote:
> > On 2017-04-11 08:19:31 +0000, Steven D'Aprano said:
> >
> > I understand that high performance was never a goal in
> > CPython development (and Python language design!), but
> > recent events (DropBox, Google) might help to reconsider
> > that standpoint.
>
> *shrug*  It isn't as if high-performance is a requirement
> for all code.

But given the choice, no prospective "language shopper" is
going to choose the slower language over a faster language
-- at least not from a pool of similar languages with
similar features (no comparing Python to C, please!). So
even if you don't need the speed _today_, you may need it
_tomorrow_. And once you've written a few hundred thousand
lines of code, well, you're committed to the language you
chose yesterday.

> And it isn't as if Python is in any serious risk of losing
> popularity.  No language can expect to be popular forever.
> Eventually Python will be as obsolete as or niche as COBOL,
> Tcl or ABC. But that day is not now.

But considering (as you pointed out) that Python is 20 years
old now, and has also recently suffered a major community
fracturing with the release of Py3000, that day is getting
ever closer. I don't see how Python can survive when a small
core of language devs consistently ignore the wider community.

> >
> > Here's a wild idea: consider Python 3 feature-complete.
>
> I think that will conflict with the many, many people who
> want Python to have more features, and care more about them
> than speed.

Python-ideas and Python-dev do not represent the majority of
the Python community. They are out there, right now, writing
code and solving problems. But when Python fails to aid in
this endeavor, they will not come here to complain, no, they
will search for a new language. In other words: they will
vote with their feet.


From rantingrickjohnson at gmail.com  Tue Apr 11 19:41:41 2017
From: rantingrickjohnson at gmail.com (Rick Johnson)
Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2017 16:41:41 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Python and the need for speed
In-Reply-To: <%E6HA.723559$fZ.128741@fx41.am4>
References: <768f9a44-5d90-4756-8a99-821253a491f8@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.5.1491710256.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <58e9e519$0$1528$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <mailman.9.1491728745.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <58ec9192$0$1602$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <oci97l$10u4$1@gioia.aioe.org>
 <58eceea2$0$1615$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <%E6HA.723559$fZ.128741@fx41.am4>
Message-ID: <1850cf1f-734b-460a-ac8b-b9e475d8877c@googlegroups.com>

On Tuesday, April 11, 2017 at 10:31:16 AM UTC-5, bartc wrote:
> On 11/04/2017 15:56, Steve D'Aprano wrote:
>
> > The truth is, all of us in this discussion -- including me
> > -- are "random, ignorant commentators". I don't believe
> > that any of us are experts at writing compilers.  Bart is
> > a possible exception, for some definition of "expert" --
> > he claims to have written a quite fast, moderately dynamic
> > language, but nobody else (that I know of) has used it.
> > And no offence to Bart, but from his comments and
> > questions on the list, I think it is fair to say that
> > whatever knowledge he has on language design was probably
> > state of the art thirty years ago. Bart sometimes
> > expresses surprise and confusion over concepts which are
> > common in languages like Javascript, Python, Perl, Ruby
> > etc. These are not young languages! Python is over 20
> > years old, Perl is even older. So I suspect Bart's
> > knowledge is probably from the 70s or 80s?
>
> Yes, about then. But it means I have a lot of experience
> getting this stuff to work briskly on limited hardware, and
> I can identify bloat and inefficiency.

A _very_ good point, and kudoes to you for having a thick
skin. The truth is, our modern hardware masks the
inefficacy of our modern high level languages. Heck, Python
could have never survived on 1970s hardware. It would have
been laughable to even suggest something as inefficient as
Python.



From nathan.ernst at gmail.com  Tue Apr 11 20:28:30 2017
From: nathan.ernst at gmail.com (Nathan Ernst)
Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2017 19:28:30 -0500
Subject: Python and the need for speed
In-Reply-To: <CAE6NSRD=xU_mNECNBU2w92Br=vgHJJVqSruGFrPB=vrbpkj0Nw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <768f9a44-5d90-4756-8a99-821253a491f8@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.5.1491710256.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <58e9e519$0$1528$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <mailman.9.1491728745.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <58ec9192$0$1602$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <oci97l$10u4$1@gioia.aioe.org>
 <58eceea2$0$1615$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <CAE6NSRD=xU_mNECNBU2w92Br=vgHJJVqSruGFrPB=vrbpkj0Nw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPjBxg_49OD_CNXUAHKjxYsUiLab4s_fCs_Ast3LyymB82zTCA@mail.gmail.com>

I used to write Python modules in C++. Well, more accurately, wrapped
already-written C++ APIs to expose to Python using Boost Python.  This
wasn't due to performance issues, but to avoid reimplementing APIs.

That said, I believe Python gets a bad wrap in regards to performance for a
variety of reasons, chief among them being: Python's prime audience tends
to be mathematical/scientific/statistical/financial first and are
developers by happen stance (I know this is a large generalization). Point
is, for these audiences, the prime driver is to get a result. Efficiency is
secondary. For instance, in a separate thread in the last week, someone was
asking if there was a faster way of doing something along these lines:

result = [(expensive_calc(x) + 1, expensive_calc(x) for x in some_data]

A valid, yet sub-optimal response was suggested:
temp = [expensive_calc(x) for x in some_data]
result = [(x + 1, x) for x in temp]

A better result would have been:
temp = (expensive_calc(x) for x in some_data)
result = [(x + 1, x) for x in temp]

Note: the difference is subtle, but significant. The first example creates
a list with the entire temporary result, while the second uses a generator.
For small sizes of "some_data", you're not likely to notice. For large
sizes of "some_data", this is huge.

Writing performant Python code is possible, but like writing performant
code in any other language, you need to be aware of what's happening. This
means paying attention to things that may cause memory allocations (which
are largely hidden from you in Python).

I worked on http://www.marketswiki.com/wiki/CMDX - in particular I wrote
most of the Migration Utility mentioned to migrate paper CDS trades to
standardized CDS contracts against CME. Most of the migration util was
written in native Python 2.5 (it was written in 2008) using a single
thread. Performance wasn't super critical, but desired. At the end of the
project, I was processing ~100K positions per second. Memory usage of the
app was constant and processing time of a portfolio was directly linear to
the number of positions in the portfolio. Python wasn't the limiting factor
for the app - it was the write speed to the database (and we were using the
bcp interface of pysybase to write to a Sybase DB).

Basically, what I'm getting at is Python *can* be performant. It's also
easy to screw up and introduce non-obvious slowness. Threading in Python is
bad - don't bother (until we can get rid of the GIL, I doubt the situation
will improve).

If you have a performance problem with Python, before you blame Python,
take a step back and look at your own code (or libraries you're using) and
ask yourself: "Is my code optimal?"

Yes, Python is not the faster language/runtime in existence. But for
probably 99% of the people out there that complain about Python's speed,
there's probably plenty of suboptimal or outright wasteful code that they
should fix first, before complaining. For the other 1%, Python was probably
the wrong choice to begin with.

****************************

I don't intend this to be seen or implied as an attack or criticism of
anyone. I'm just trying to provide an insight into my experience of using
Python.

Regards,
Nate

On Tue, Apr 11, 2017 at 3:58 PM, Mikhail V <mikhailwas at gmail.com> wrote:

> On 11 April 2017 at 16:56, Steve D'Aprano <steve+python at pearwood.info>
> wrote:
> > On Tue, 11 Apr 2017 07:56 pm, Brecht Machiels wrote:
> >
> >[...]
> >
> >> DropBox and
> >> Google seem to agree that there are no good solutions, since they are
> >> moving to Go.
> >
> > That's a good solution! Maybe we should be writing extensions in Go,
> instead
> > of C. Or for maths-heavy work, using extensions written in Julia.
>
> Just my curiosity, I've always been intersted in such question: are devs
> still writing extensions in C, I mean type in C code? Aren't they using
> some translator or IDE which at lest hides the brackets and semicolons?
> I personally don't have problems with understanding low-level
> concepts of programming, but I find it pretty hard to see
> through the mangroves of brackets, asterisks and Co.
>
>
> Mikhail
> --
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
>


From no.email at nospam.invalid  Tue Apr 11 20:36:24 2017
From: no.email at nospam.invalid (Paul Rubin)
Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2017 17:36:24 -0700
Subject: Python and the need for speed
References: <768f9a44-5d90-4756-8a99-821253a491f8@googlegroups.com>
 <CAPTjJmrMWpzGd9Lf_sa-mscvqezY01U5kDCPRh07Nuivvxo8yg@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.5.1491710256.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <58e9e519$0$1528$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <CAPTjJmq4bCoXWryo5Jahh4he1_GP5LGjyKtJ1Mxs_XkNggi-6w@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.9.1491728745.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <58ec9192$0$1602$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <87a87mn8rc.fsf@nightsong.com> <ocj81q$rfj$1@blaine.gmane.org>
 <mailman.53.1491936138.2951.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <87shlelawn.fsf@nightsong.com>

Grant Edwards <grant.b.edwards at gmail.com> writes:
> I didn't know there was such a thing as "The Python C API".

It's described in this document:

https://infohost.nmt.edu/tcc/help/lang/python/2_6_3/c-api.pdf

You can tell that the document is about the Python/C API (ok, with a
slash) because it says so at the top of the title page.


From no.email at nospam.invalid  Tue Apr 11 20:36:58 2017
From: no.email at nospam.invalid (Paul Rubin)
Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2017 17:36:58 -0700
Subject: Python and the need for speed
References: <768f9a44-5d90-4756-8a99-821253a491f8@googlegroups.com>
 <CAPTjJmrMWpzGd9Lf_sa-mscvqezY01U5kDCPRh07Nuivvxo8yg@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.5.1491710256.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <58e9e519$0$1528$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <CAPTjJmq4bCoXWryo5Jahh4he1_GP5LGjyKtJ1Mxs_XkNggi-6w@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.9.1491728745.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <58ec9192$0$1602$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <87a87mn8rc.fsf@nightsong.com> <ocj81q$rfj$1@blaine.gmane.org>
 <CAPTjJmrBHKxUoPOHExROu4u8tQzxLMPWzXEJYxVQr7P4JLpk-w@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.54.1491936892.2951.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <87o9w2lavp.fsf@nightsong.com>

Chris Angelico <rosuav at gmail.com> writes:
> Do you mean this?
> https://docs.python.org/3/c-api/intro.html

Correct, smart guy ;-)


From rantingrickjohnson at gmail.com  Tue Apr 11 20:37:14 2017
From: rantingrickjohnson at gmail.com (Rick Johnson)
Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2017 17:37:14 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Swiss Ephemeris
In-Reply-To: <mailman.16.1491803796.2951.python-list@python.org>
References: <1710f867-da07-4c52-9ff5-7b349dd8e485@googlegroups.com>
 <000001d2b1bb$7f8e7950$27b23dae@sambora>
 <mailman.16.1491803796.2951.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <733bab9d-b4c7-48cd-959d-3a60726ea9ea@googlegroups.com>

On Monday, April 10, 2017 at 12:56:47 AM UTC-5, Deborah Swanson wrote:
> Fully recognizing that most of what you wrote was tongue-
> in-cheek, I just want to say that regardless of the wonders
> of modern medicine, it's a pity they learn so little about
> successful medicines other than their own. In other
> academic scientific disciplines such as physics and
> chemistry it's not uncommon to see history of science
> courses in the curriculum. But not in medicine. I learned
> what I know about ancient Greek science from a university
> physics professor, though I doubt he would ever have
> guessed that one of his students would someday breathe new
> life into that ancient science by attempting to ressurrect
> it. The great ancients were no less endowed with
> intelligence than we are, they simply directed it to
> different ends.

Hmm. I would say the ancients had a relatively "equal
intellectual capacity" as we moderns, but with far less
empirical evidence from which to theorize from.

Personally. i'm highly skeptical of astrology -- but being
that you're writing an application to categorize and present
this raw data in an intuitive form for study -- based purely
on the learing experience _alone_, i think the project has
merit. Hopefully your constantly pushing your technical
boundaries: learning new libraries; learning new languages;
experimenting with cutting-edge algorithms, etc.

I'm firmly convinced that time spent writing code is never
wasted, because programming is perpetual problem solving and
honing your problem solving skills can be beneficial to all
aspects of life. Many times you'll find the answer to one
problem while trying to solve another. Problem solving is
the task that consistently bears intellectual fruit. And
that's why i love writing code. It always presents me with a
challenge to overcome, or a riddle to solve.


From no.email at nospam.invalid  Tue Apr 11 20:38:03 2017
From: no.email at nospam.invalid (Paul Rubin)
Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2017 17:38:03 -0700
Subject: Python and the need for speed
References: <768f9a44-5d90-4756-8a99-821253a491f8@googlegroups.com>
 <CAPTjJmrMWpzGd9Lf_sa-mscvqezY01U5kDCPRh07Nuivvxo8yg@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.5.1491710256.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <58e9e519$0$1528$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <CAPTjJmq4bCoXWryo5Jahh4he1_GP5LGjyKtJ1Mxs_XkNggi-6w@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.9.1491728745.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <58ec9192$0$1602$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <87a87mn8rc.fsf@nightsong.com> <ocj81q$rfj$1@blaine.gmane.org>
 <CAPTjJmrBHKxUoPOHExROu4u8tQzxLMPWzXEJYxVQr7P4JLpk-w@mail.gmail.com>
 <ocja89$4vk$1@blaine.gmane.org>
 <CAPTjJmq3D58UY_qdpVKe5YCbgN97fqC+er3QgnHjfh+q5Ty6zA@mail.gmail.com>
 <ocjbt2$39e$1@blaine.gmane.org>
 <mailman.57.1491940082.2951.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <87k26qlatw.fsf@nightsong.com>

Grant Edwards <grant.b.edwards at gmail.com> writes:
> If there are now other Python implementations (e.g. MicroPython) with
> C APIs that differ from CPython, then it seems like it is no longer
> redundant to say "the CPython API".

Perhaps there should be an attempt to define a unified API like the Java
JNI, Lisp FFI's, etc.


From no.email at nospam.invalid  Tue Apr 11 20:40:29 2017
From: no.email at nospam.invalid (Paul Rubin)
Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2017 17:40:29 -0700
Subject: Python and the need for speed
References: <768f9a44-5d90-4756-8a99-821253a491f8@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.5.1491710256.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <58e9e519$0$1528$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <mailman.9.1491728745.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <58ec9192$0$1602$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <oci97l$10u4$1@gioia.aioe.org>
 <58eceea2$0$1615$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <CAE6NSRD=xU_mNECNBU2w92Br=vgHJJVqSruGFrPB=vrbpkj0Nw@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.60.1491944323.2951.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <87fuhelapu.fsf@nightsong.com>

Mikhail V <mikhailwas at gmail.com> writes:
> Just my curiosity, I've always been intersted in such question: are devs
> still writing extensions in C, I mean type in C code? 

Yes.

> Aren't they using some translator or IDE which at lest hides the
> brackets and semicolons?

I don't know of anyone who does that.  I don't think anyone minds C's
brackets and semicolons, and lots of other languages like Java and Perl
use them too, for programmer familiarity.  The actual difficulty with C
is that it gives rise to a high incidence of hard-to-diagnose bugs.


From nathan.ernst at gmail.com  Tue Apr 11 20:44:33 2017
From: nathan.ernst at gmail.com (Nathan Ernst)
Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2017 19:44:33 -0500
Subject: Python and the need for speed
In-Reply-To: <CAE6NSRCWPpWpUJYS2RmeU4aN9Qb8fnV=TvY+50JyLA5cC2Yezw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <768f9a44-5d90-4756-8a99-821253a491f8@googlegroups.com>
 <CAPTjJmrMWpzGd9Lf_sa-mscvqezY01U5kDCPRh07Nuivvxo8yg@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.5.1491710256.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <el01fmF900sU1@mid.individual.net>
 <CAE6NSRDLV5_f6uuUoX8EL0Y-6AiFT3wcw_UrQ50oFDwFJ8YAPw@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.18.1491827120.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <a7ded978-42fe-43f3-ad75-c94e13f67dad@googlegroups.com>
 <CAE6NSRCWPpWpUJYS2RmeU4aN9Qb8fnV=TvY+50JyLA5cC2Yezw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPjBxg-pR0xO-doK6zo9mTnUgh-=PMbVmKp7odvuSFtcLqimtw@mail.gmail.com>

goto is a misunderstood and much misaligned creature. It is a very useful
feature, but like nearly any programming construct can be abused.

Constructs like 'break', 'continue' or 'next' in languages like Python or
C/C++ are goto's with implied labels.

As Mikhail said, goto's can be great to break out of nested loops (only a
handful of languages support named 'breaks').

So, instead of:
bool found = false;
for (int i = 0; i = ...; ++i)
{
 for (int h = 0; h = ...; ++h)
 {
   if (some_condition)
     found = true;
 }
 if (found) break;
}

You can have:

for (int i = 0; i = ...; ++i)
{
 for (int h = 0; h = ...; ++h)
 {
   if (some_condition)
     goto found;
 }
}
// not found

found:
// handle found

The second is better for a number of reasons: it's clearer. It has fewer
variables (smaller stack), it has fewer branches (better for the CPU's
branch prediction), and it has fewer instructions (better for CPU
instruction cache).  This is a trivial, contrived example, but I've seen
more than 4x nested loops using an exit flag like this (at every level of
the loops) that could have been replaced with a lot less code.

People need to stop drinking "X is considered harmful." Even Dijkstra later
lamented that his "Goto considered harmful" paper was misinterpreted and
misrepresented as advocating that goto should never be used.

Additionally, I'd recommend everyone read '"Considered Harmful" Essays
Considered Harmful': http://meyerweb.com/eric/comment/chech.html

Regards,
Nate

On Tue, Apr 11, 2017 at 6:04 PM, Mikhail V <mikhailwas at gmail.com> wrote:

> On 12 April 2017 at 00:02, Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohnson at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > On Monday, April 10, 2017 at 7:25:48 AM UTC-5, Mikhail V wrote:
> >> Still I miss some old school features in Python, e.g.
> >> "goto" statement would be very useful in some cases.
> >
> > Are you serious?
>
> Not so serious to think it is needed much.
> And it easy enough to imagine where it
> would be more readable than setting up flags and if-blocks
> just to jump along the script.
>
> n.d., it reminds me also about the discussion about
> exiting from nested loops.
> --
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
>


From python at mrabarnett.plus.com  Tue Apr 11 21:04:28 2017
From: python at mrabarnett.plus.com (MRAB)
Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2017 02:04:28 +0100
Subject: Python and the need for speed
In-Reply-To: <CAPjBxg_49OD_CNXUAHKjxYsUiLab4s_fCs_Ast3LyymB82zTCA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <768f9a44-5d90-4756-8a99-821253a491f8@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.5.1491710256.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <58e9e519$0$1528$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <mailman.9.1491728745.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <58ec9192$0$1602$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <oci97l$10u4$1@gioia.aioe.org>
 <58eceea2$0$1615$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <CAE6NSRD=xU_mNECNBU2w92Br=vgHJJVqSruGFrPB=vrbpkj0Nw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPjBxg_49OD_CNXUAHKjxYsUiLab4s_fCs_Ast3LyymB82zTCA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <e90a9301-06cf-6683-d062-e805794ac8de@mrabarnett.plus.com>

On 2017-04-12 01:28, Nathan Ernst wrote:
[snip]

> I worked on http://www.marketswiki.com/wiki/CMDX - in particular I wrote
> most of the Migration Utility mentioned to migrate paper CDS trades to
> standardized CDS contracts against CME. Most of the migration util was
> written in native Python 2.5 (it was written in 2008) using a single
> thread. Performance wasn't super critical, but desired. At the end of the
> project, I was processing ~100K positions per second. Memory usage of the
> app was constant and processing time of a portfolio was directly linear to
> the number of positions in the portfolio. Python wasn't the limiting factor
> for the app - it was the write speed to the database (and we were using the
> bcp interface of pysybase to write to a Sybase DB).
> 
> Basically, what I'm getting at is Python *can* be performant. It's also
> easy to screw up and introduce non-obvious slowness. Threading in Python is
> bad - don't bother (until we can get rid of the GIL, I doubt the situation
> will improve).
> 
Threading is OK if you're waiting for I/O where the main limiting factor 
is the speed of the I/O, e.g. transferring stuff to/from the internet.

> If you have a performance problem with Python, before you blame Python,
> take a step back and look at your own code (or libraries you're using) and
> ask yourself: "Is my code optimal?"
> 
> Yes, Python is not the faster language/runtime in existence. But for
> probably 99% of the people out there that complain about Python's speed,
> there's probably plenty of suboptimal or outright wasteful code that they
> should fix first, before complaining. For the other 1%, Python was probably
> the wrong choice to begin with.
> 
> ****************************
> 
> I don't intend this to be seen or implied as an attack or criticism of
> anyone. I'm just trying to provide an insight into my experience of using
> Python.
> 
[snip]


From nathan.ernst at gmail.com  Tue Apr 11 21:10:57 2017
From: nathan.ernst at gmail.com (Nathan Ernst)
Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2017 20:10:57 -0500
Subject: Python and the need for speed
In-Reply-To: <e90a9301-06cf-6683-d062-e805794ac8de@mrabarnett.plus.com>
References: <768f9a44-5d90-4756-8a99-821253a491f8@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.5.1491710256.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <58e9e519$0$1528$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <mailman.9.1491728745.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <58ec9192$0$1602$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <oci97l$10u4$1@gioia.aioe.org>
 <58eceea2$0$1615$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <CAE6NSRD=xU_mNECNBU2w92Br=vgHJJVqSruGFrPB=vrbpkj0Nw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPjBxg_49OD_CNXUAHKjxYsUiLab4s_fCs_Ast3LyymB82zTCA@mail.gmail.com>
 <e90a9301-06cf-6683-d062-e805794ac8de@mrabarnett.plus.com>
Message-ID: <CAPjBxg9kVZOQ_NK3CwK41L+cbOpsHLrKWen4enEm+PSMinuGzA@mail.gmail.com>

I think that's fair (and I had intended to mention it). Although, I'm
curious how threading with IO compares to using async/awai (I've not
experience with async/await in Python, just in C#).

Regards,
Nate

On Tue, Apr 11, 2017 at 8:04 PM, MRAB <python at mrabarnett.plus.com> wrote:

> On 2017-04-12 01:28, Nathan Ernst wrote:
> [snip]
>
> I worked on http://www.marketswiki.com/wiki/CMDX - in particular I wrote
>> most of the Migration Utility mentioned to migrate paper CDS trades to
>> standardized CDS contracts against CME. Most of the migration util was
>> written in native Python 2.5 (it was written in 2008) using a single
>> thread. Performance wasn't super critical, but desired. At the end of the
>> project, I was processing ~100K positions per second. Memory usage of the
>> app was constant and processing time of a portfolio was directly linear to
>> the number of positions in the portfolio. Python wasn't the limiting
>> factor
>> for the app - it was the write speed to the database (and we were using
>> the
>> bcp interface of pysybase to write to a Sybase DB).
>>
>> Basically, what I'm getting at is Python *can* be performant. It's also
>> easy to screw up and introduce non-obvious slowness. Threading in Python
>> is
>> bad - don't bother (until we can get rid of the GIL, I doubt the situation
>> will improve).
>>
>> Threading is OK if you're waiting for I/O where the main limiting factor
> is the speed of the I/O, e.g. transferring stuff to/from the internet.
>
> If you have a performance problem with Python, before you blame Python,
>> take a step back and look at your own code (or libraries you're using) and
>> ask yourself: "Is my code optimal?"
>>
>> Yes, Python is not the faster language/runtime in existence. But for
>> probably 99% of the people out there that complain about Python's speed,
>> there's probably plenty of suboptimal or outright wasteful code that they
>> should fix first, before complaining. For the other 1%, Python was
>> probably
>> the wrong choice to begin with.
>>
>> ****************************
>>
>> I don't intend this to be seen or implied as an attack or criticism of
>> anyone. I'm just trying to provide an insight into my experience of using
>> Python.
>>
>> [snip]
> --
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
>


From python at deborahswanson.net  Tue Apr 11 21:12:44 2017
From: python at deborahswanson.net (Deborah Swanson)
Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2017 18:12:44 -0700
Subject: Swiss Ephemeris
Message-ID: <011401d2b329$e41220b0$27b23dae@sambora>

> 
> Rustom Mody wrote, on Monday, April 10, 2017 11:50 PM
> > 
> > On Monday, April 10, 2017 at 11:26:47 AM UTC+5:30, Deborah Swanson 
> > wrote:
> > > The great ancients were no less endowed with intelligence than we
are,
> > > they simply directed it to different ends.
> > 
> > And just when I was convinced by the all-knowers that my gpa
> > was a monkey you've spoilt my complacence
> 
> Good! It's unhealthy the way modern folk strut around 
> thinking they're the smartest humans to ever walk this earth. 
> We've gone farther with technology than any other time or 
> culture, but invention (and innovation) is only one aspect of 
> intelligence.
> 
> > > ... medical astrology...
> > 
> > whether that is hooey or scepticism of it is hooey, I dont
> > know [Yeah I genuinely don't know what that term means for you]
> 
> I don't know that anyone does. I use a very strict 
> interpretation of the orginal rules that you won't by find 
> googling "medical astrology". (I know, I've tried, in the old 
> Google as well as the new.) There's no pretension to mystic 
> art in my form, but mine's a lot more accurate and 
> information rich, so far as I can see in the few writings 
> about it. I think concentrating on the actual and valid 
> relationships while ignoring all the mysticism yields more 
> useful results. I know the ancient Greeks were wed to their 
> gods and I forgive them for that. I just think they would 
> have done better without the mythology.
> 
> > However you may be interested in
> > http://blog.languager.org/2016/01/how-long.html
> > which is a > motley collection of the incredible 
> > persistence of humans to erroneous ways and outlooks and 
> > their damaging consequences
> 
> I think you also talk about the incredible persistence of 
> other concepts and perceptions, notably in music and 
> mathematics (which were always linked in earlier times).
> 
> I would find your other examples of erroneous thinking a bit 
> skewed in lengths of time. Tofler was right in Future Shock. 
> We've accelerated our intellectual development since the 
> Middle Ages, though I don't think it's because we're any 
> smarter. I can't remember exactly when it was that the human 
> brain reached it's current size and mental capacity, but it 
> was shortly before the time of the ancients. Physiologically 
> we've changed very little since then, but the knowledge base 
> we've built on over time was what eventually caused the 
> acceleration. No single person in modern times is 
> intellectually capable of buiding the concepts we now use 
> from scratch. We stand on the shoulders of giants.
> 
> > [Frank Admission: That list started with a discussion on this list 
> > where I
> > suggested that OOP is already debunked hooey and that FP is 
> > the way forward for programming. To which Steven asked that 
> > since FP is at least 50 years old and has not got 
> > very far, what makes one think its going anywhere...
> > To which I wondered... Is 50 years a long time? By what standard? 
> > Hence that list ]
> 
> 50 years isn't that long, though you must consider the 
> accelerated times we're living in. LISP is likely doomed 
> though. It's chief claim to fame was AI, and it's unlikely to 
> reclaim its former glory, not with languages like Python 
> leading the charge.  My only contact with LISP was from a 
> computer science professor in 1975, who literally raved about 
> how superior LISP was. I dunno. I was doing AI in PL1 then 
> and had several debates with this fellow. I don't remember 
> much of the substance of those debates, but I know he never 
> persuaded me that LISP was superior to PL1.
> 
> Deborah
> 



From steve+python at pearwood.info  Tue Apr 11 21:20:19 2017
From: steve+python at pearwood.info (Steve D'Aprano)
Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2017 11:20:19 +1000
Subject: Python and the need for speed
References: <768f9a44-5d90-4756-8a99-821253a491f8@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.5.1491710256.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <58e9e519$0$1528$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <mailman.9.1491728745.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <58ec9192$0$1602$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <oci97l$10u4$1@gioia.aioe.org>
 <ba1c8a70-7f22-4122-86da-3bc8ca2a1810@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <58ed80d4$0$1599$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>

On Wed, 12 Apr 2017 08:42 am, Rick Johnson wrote:

> The fact that both Google AND DropBox are ignoring Python,
> must be devastating to GvR

Fact check: liar, liar, pants on fire.

Neither Google nor DropBox are "ignoring Python". From two randomly selected
technical job positions currently offered:

"Strong coding skills in an object-oriented language (Python preferred)"

https://www.dropbox.com/jobs/listing/184604

"Your knowledge of Python a plus"

https://www.dropbox.com/jobs/listing/91407

Google likewise has a huge investment in Python code. *Even if* they decide
to move entirely to Go for new code (unlikely), Python will still have a
role to play at Google for years, possibly decades.



Rick, you must be really insecure about your choice of language, given how
much you obsess about other people leaving Python for other languages.
You're constantly writing about (imaginary) other people leaving Python, or
being unhappy with Python, or "voting with their feet". Well, people do
vote with their feet, and Python is consistently in the most popular
handful of languages.

http://redmonk.com/sogrady/2017/03/17/language-rankings-1-17/

https://blog.newrelic.com/2016/08/18/popular-programming-languages-2016-go/

http://pypl.github.io/PYPL.html

https://www.tiobe.com/tiobe-index/

I still remember your first, or at least a very early, post as Ranting Rick
where you were *terrified* that unless GvR did exactly what you said, the
entire Python community was going to pack up and move to Ruby. It was real
Chicken Little "The Sky Is Falling" stuff.

Well, GvR didn't pay the least bit of attention to your "advice", in fact he
has continued to move Python in directions that you hate -- Unicode as the
default string type, type annotations, Python 3 -- and far from suffering
for it, the Python community is bigger and stronger than ever.

How is your "Rick Python" coming along? Its been, what, ten years, fifteen
years since you promised to give the "silent majority" exactly the Python
language they wanted, and we're still waiting for you to publish a single
line of code.




-- 
Steve
?Cheer up,? they said, ?things could be worse.? So I cheered up, and sure
enough, things got worse.



From steve+python at pearwood.info  Tue Apr 11 21:30:08 2017
From: steve+python at pearwood.info (Steve D'Aprano)
Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2017 11:30:08 +1000
Subject: Python and the need for speed
References: <768f9a44-5d90-4756-8a99-821253a491f8@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.5.1491710256.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <58e9e519$0$1528$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <mailman.9.1491728745.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <58ec9192$0$1602$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <oci97l$10u4$1@gioia.aioe.org>
 <58eceea2$0$1615$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <CAE6NSRD=xU_mNECNBU2w92Br=vgHJJVqSruGFrPB=vrbpkj0Nw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPjBxg_49OD_CNXUAHKjxYsUiLab4s_fCs_Ast3LyymB82zTCA@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.68.1491956914.2951.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <58ed8321$0$1620$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>

On Wed, 12 Apr 2017 10:28 am, Nathan Ernst wrote:

[...]
> If you have a performance problem with Python, before you blame Python,
> take a step back and look at your own code (or libraries you're using) and
> ask yourself: "Is my code optimal?"
> 
> Yes, Python is not the faster language/runtime in existence. But for
> probably 99% of the people out there that complain about Python's speed,
> there's probably plenty of suboptimal or outright wasteful code that they
> should fix first, before complaining. For the other 1%, Python was
> probably the wrong choice to begin with.

Thanks for your perspective Nate, that's a really good point and I wish more
people would remember that you can write slow code in any language.

There's a whole *universe* of use-cases, ranging from code where speed
doesn't matter one bit to absolutely performance critical code. No single
language can be ideal for all tasks, that's why we have so many languages
to choose from. Not just dozens, but hundreds! They all make different
tradeoffs between functionality, style, performance and memory use. That's
okay! Diversity in language design is a good thing.



-- 
Steve
?Cheer up,? they said, ?things could be worse.? So I cheered up, and sure
enough, things got worse.



From steve+python at pearwood.info  Tue Apr 11 21:42:16 2017
From: steve+python at pearwood.info (Steve D'Aprano)
Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2017 11:42:16 +1000
Subject: Inclusion of of python and python libraries licensed with BSD- 3
 clause license in proprietary software
References: <a78de867-9924-4e6a-8128-676e53e6d1aa@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <58ed85f8$0$1583$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>

On Wed, 12 Apr 2017 06:35 am, Abhishek Kumar wrote:

> Hello,
> 
> I tried finding the answer but even the lawyers  in my town have no idea

Where is your town?


> about it and searching the web leaved me puzzled.

What have you tried?

The first few links found here:

https://duckduckgo.com/?q=BSD-3+licence+faqs


seem pretty easy to understand. It's a very short and simple licence,
precisely because it puts very few requirements on you. If you are using
Library X (which is under the BSD-3 licence) then all you need do to meet
the licence requirements is to include Library X's copyright notice and
licence. You don't have to provide the source code to Library X, or to your
own application.


> I am planning to make a software in python which will include libraries 
> licensed under BSD- 3 clause. Can I sell this software  under proprietary 
> license 

Yes.


> and legally inhibit redistribution by users under my own license. 

Yes.


> Also if you know anyone who holds knowledge in this field then please do
> let me know.. Your response will be really helpful.
> 
> Regards,
> Abhishek Kumar
> ?

-- 
Steve
?Cheer up,? they said, ?things could be worse.? So I cheered up, and sure
enough, things got worse.



From steve+python at pearwood.info  Tue Apr 11 22:08:01 2017
From: steve+python at pearwood.info (Steve D'Aprano)
Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2017 12:08:01 +1000
Subject: Python and the need for speed
References: <768f9a44-5d90-4756-8a99-821253a491f8@googlegroups.com>
 <CAPTjJmrMWpzGd9Lf_sa-mscvqezY01U5kDCPRh07Nuivvxo8yg@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.5.1491710256.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <58e9e519$0$1528$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <CAPTjJmq4bCoXWryo5Jahh4he1_GP5LGjyKtJ1Mxs_XkNggi-6w@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.9.1491728745.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <58ec9192$0$1602$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <87a87mn8rc.fsf@nightsong.com>
Message-ID: <58ed8c02$0$1620$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>

On Wed, 12 Apr 2017 03:39 am, Paul Rubin wrote:

> I still do my everyday stuff in Python and I'd like to get more
> conversant with stuff like numpy, but it feels like an old-fashioned
> language these days.

"Old fashioned"? With await/async just added to the language, and type
annotations? And comprehensions and iterators?

Admittedly type annotations are mostly of interest to large projects with
many developers and a huge code base. But the rest?

Comprehensions may have been around for a decade or two in Haskell, but most
older languages don't have them. I'm pretty sure Java doesn't. Does
Javascript? Comprehensions feel like a fancy new language feature to me.

The whole asynchronous programming features are extremely new and "hip".

What sort of things do you consider "new-fashioned" if Python is
old-fashioned?


I'm reminded of this quote from the timbot:

  In many ways, it's a dull language, borrowing solid old concepts
  from many other languages & styles:  boring syntax, unsurprising
  semantics, few  automatic coercions, etc etc.  But that's one of
  the things I like about it.                 -- Tim Peters, 16 Sep 1993




-- 
Steve
?Cheer up,? they said, ?things could be worse.? So I cheered up, and sure
enough, things got worse.



From rustompmody at gmail.com  Tue Apr 11 22:20:07 2017
From: rustompmody at gmail.com (Rustom Mody)
Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2017 19:20:07 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Python and the need for speed
In-Reply-To: <a7ded978-42fe-43f3-ad75-c94e13f67dad@googlegroups.com>
References: <768f9a44-5d90-4756-8a99-821253a491f8@googlegroups.com>
 <CAPTjJmrMWpzGd9Lf_sa-mscvqezY01U5kDCPRh07Nuivvxo8yg@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.5.1491710256.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <el01fmF900sU1@mid.individual.net>
 <CAE6NSRDLV5_f6uuUoX8EL0Y-6AiFT3wcw_UrQ50oFDwFJ8YAPw@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.18.1491827120.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <a7ded978-42fe-43f3-ad75-c94e13f67dad@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <5bbd9499-4a49-40a6-ad18-56bb3f61ad22@googlegroups.com>

On Wednesday, April 12, 2017 at 3:32:57 AM UTC+5:30, Rick Johnson wrote:
> On Monday, April 10, 2017 at 7:25:48 AM UTC-5, Mikhail V wrote:
> > Still I miss some old school features in Python, e.g.
> > "goto" statement would be very useful in some cases. 
> 
> Are you serious?
> 
> > I know it is considered bad style to use goto, but in some
> > cases it is just most natural thing to use.
> 
> "Natural"? If you're programming from inside a spaghetti
> bowl, i suppose.

Try coding up an automaton (synonyms DFA, FSM) by hand
With
state = goto-label [And the stuff 'under' it]
transition = goto-statement
is a mapping that is hard to beat


From rustompmody at gmail.com  Tue Apr 11 22:29:03 2017
From: rustompmody at gmail.com (Rustom Mody)
Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2017 19:29:03 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Python and the need for speed
In-Reply-To: <58ed8c02$0$1620$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
References: <768f9a44-5d90-4756-8a99-821253a491f8@googlegroups.com>
 <CAPTjJmrMWpzGd9Lf_sa-mscvqezY01U5kDCPRh07Nuivvxo8yg@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.5.1491710256.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <58e9e519$0$1528$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <CAPTjJmq4bCoXWryo5Jahh4he1_GP5LGjyKtJ1Mxs_XkNggi-6w@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.9.1491728745.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <58ec9192$0$1602$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <87a87mn8rc.fsf@nightsong.com>
 <58ed8c02$0$1620$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
Message-ID: <069ed317-abab-4980-a06c-6eafdc029653@googlegroups.com>

On Wednesday, April 12, 2017 at 7:38:12 AM UTC+5:30, Steve D'Aprano wrote:
> On Wed, 12 Apr 2017 03:39 am, Paul Rubin wrote:
> 
> > I still do my everyday stuff in Python and I'd like to get more
> > conversant with stuff like numpy, but it feels like an old-fashioned
> > language these days.
> 
> "Old fashioned"? With await/async just added to the language, and type
> annotations?

I wonder if you notice Steven, that people use these examples to make 
the opposite case?

When you see "python is sweet... almost as sweet as javascript"

you know you are in trouble and need to start running (at least I do)

http://stackabuse.com/python-async-await-tutorial/
[last para]


From rantingrickjohnson at gmail.com  Tue Apr 11 22:33:15 2017
From: rantingrickjohnson at gmail.com (Rick Johnson)
Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2017 19:33:15 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: read in a list in a file to list
In-Reply-To: <mailman.11.1491772966.2951.python-list@python.org>
References: <5db12517-4c1a-f180-978f-533a632b8b36@mail.usf.edu>
 <mailman.0.1491676359.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <43baa05f-7cdf-4e58-a62a-1e917fea8219@googlegroups.com>
 <820a9e29-25b4-baaf-c8cb-ff40b980e6ec@mail.usf.edu>
 <mailman.11.1491772966.2951.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <6d9e54ca-a2be-420f-91b5-30b53124d122@googlegroups.com>

On Sunday, April 9, 2017 at 4:22:59 PM UTC-5, john polo wrote:
> On 4/8/2017 3:21 PM, breamoreboy at gmail.com wrote:
> > On Saturday, April 8, 2017 at 7:32:52 PM UTC+1, john polo wrote:

> > I'll start you off.
> >
> > with open("apefile.txt") as apefile:
> >      for line in apefile:
> >          doSomething(line)
> >
> > String methods and/or the csv module might be used here in
> > doSomething(line), but I'll leave that to you so that you
> > can learn.  If you get stuck please ask again, we don't
> > bite :)

> Mark, Thanks for the reply. I looked back through the
> methods for strings. I also looked at the csv module, but I
> couldn't tell which one of those would help.

Well, if you plan to write much code in Python you'd be wise
to memorize every string method ASAP. And if you cannot, or
are not willing to do that, then your programming adventures
are going to be very painful. My advice would be to forget
about the csv module for now, and do some major studying of
all the string methods. And please, use the interactive
interpreter to play around with each one of these methods.
Here is a sample of me playing...

    ## START INTERACTIVE SESSION (Python2.x) ##

    >>> myStr = 'Rick is awesome!'

    >>> type(myStr)
    <type 'str'>

    >>> len(myStr)
    16

    >>> dir(myStr)
    ['__add__', '__class__', '__contains__', '__delattr__',
    '__doc__', '__eq__', '__format__', '__ge__',
    '__getattribute__', '__getitem__', '__getnewargs__',
    '__getslice__', '__gt__', '__hash__', '__init__', '__le__',
    '__len__', '__lt__', '__mod__', '__mul__', '__ne__',
    '__new__', '__reduce__', '__reduce_ex__', '__repr__',
    '__rmod__', '__rmul__', '__setattr__', '__sizeof__',
    '__str__', '__subclasshook__',
    '_formatter_field_name_split', '_formatter_parser',
    'capitalize', 'center', 'count', 'decode', 'encode',
    'endswith', 'expandtabs', 'find', 'format', 'index',
    'isalnum', 'isalpha', 'isdigit', 'islower', 'isspace',
    'istitle', 'isupper', 'join', 'ljust', 'lower', 'lstrip',
    'partition', 'replace', 'rfind', 'rindex', 'rjust',
    'rpartition', 'rsplit', 'rstrip', 'split', 'splitlines',
    'startswith', 'strip', 'swapcase', 'title', 'translate',
    'upper', 'zfill']

    >>> help(myStr.split)
    Help on built-in function split:

    split(...)
        S.split([sep [,maxsplit]]) -> list of strings

        Return a list of the words in the string S, using sep as the
        delimiter string.  If maxsplit is given, at most maxsplit
        splits are done. If sep is not specified or is None, any
        whitespace string is a separator and empty strings are removed
        from the result.
    ## END INTERACTIVE SESSION (Python2.x) ##

> The small .txt file does have commas, but with the weird
> form of listname = [1] , [2], [3], etc. for a .csv, I don't
> know how that would be read in a like a .csv. But now that
> I think about it, datObj2 in my script prints just the list
> elements, so maybe the 'listname=' part wouldn't affect
> it...

Again, forget about the csv module for now, it will only
confuse you. Focus on learning Python String methods first.
I can assure you, you might could get by without knowing
jack about the csv module, but you won't get anywhere until
you become intimately familiar with Python String methods.

> Anyway, after reviewing string methods some more, I came up
> with this. If I understood your hint, the loop was supposed
> to somehow break up the long string that came from the
> apelist file,

Mark's code sample iterates over the lines of a file and
passes each line to a function named "doSomething". His hope
was that you would replace the call to doSomething with code
that actually, well, does something.

> but it seemed that trying to use the split method in a loop
> wouldn't work,

Where's your code proving it "would not work"? I can assure
you, a string can be split inside a loop.

> especially since one of my attempts started a list and then
> the interpreter said there were no split methods for list.

Of course, because there is no split method for a list.
Don't believe me? Okay, let's conduct an experiment...

    ## START INTERACTIVE SESSION (Python2.x) ##

    >>> aList = [1,2,3]
    >>> 'split' in dir(aList)
    False

    ## END INTERACTIVE SESSION (Python2.x) ##

> The new attempt gives me a list, now I have to figure out
> how to deal with unwanted quotation marks and spaces.

Then stop trying to solve 10 problems at once and open your
interactive Python interpreter and do some testing until
your confident that you can remove unwanted chars from a
string.

> Can you make two replacements in the same statement, for
> example 'datObj=datFil.read().replace('"','').replace('"','')?

i dunno, did you try testing the code yourself in an
interactive session like i asked? Here, once more...

    ## START INTERACTIVE SESSION (Python2.x) ##
    >>> myStr
    'Rick is awesome!'
    >>> myStr.replace('Rick', "Rick's patience").replace('awesome', 'wearing thin')
    "Rick's patience is wearing thin!"
    >>> myStr
    'Rick is awesome!'
    ## END INTERACTIVE SESSION (Python2.x) ##

> Per reply of Rick Johnson, I altered variable names to
> something generic.

Indeed you did, and it seems you took my advice to the
extreme, and now your code is a real pain to read. And after
observing that the multiple exchanges here are not producing
the desired result, i am getting the feeling that you are
unwilling to invest the effort required to solve this
problem. Feel free to prove me wrong.

Many people have offered good advice, but you are not
following the advice as closely as you should. So one last
time, i will try to help you by compiling all the tips:


(1) The first step to solving any programming problem is to
devise a "general plan of attack". One of the most common
techniques is called "Divide And Conquer". Using this
technique, you will divide a large problem into many small
problems, solve each of the small problems _individually_,
and then combine them to produce a solution. This type of
"general approach" is what Mark's code example was hinting
at, but i would go further. Follows is a general outline of
how to solve this problem using the necessary amount of
division.

    def handle_result(result):
        #
        # Currently this only prints the parsed line, but once you
        # get everything else working correctly, you can have it
        # do something more interesting.
        #
        print result

    def parse_line(line):
        #
        # Parse out the relevant bits here and return them as a string
        # or list or whatever you want. Currently all this function
        # does is send the `line` back unchanged.
        #
        parsedBits = line
        return parsedBits

    def parse_file(filePath):
        with open(filePath) as fileObj:
            for line in fileObj:
                result = parse_line(line)
                handle_result(result)

    parse_file('ape.txt')


(2) Use the interactive nature of Python to test code
snippits as you write the code.


(3) If you are designer of this "ape file format", then for
Guido's sake man, redesign it! It's not a wise way to store
data. Unless you're storing source code. But being that
you're not familiar with strings methods, i have a hard time
believing that this code is part of a mini language.


(4) And while you could "technically" use ast.literal_eval
to solve this problem, i wouldn't suggest it. i think Chris
was just using esoteric comedy on you. And don't worry if
you don't understand why that's funny, it's a joke that is
meant for _us_. You'll understand at some point in the
future.


From eryksun at gmail.com  Tue Apr 11 22:47:11 2017
From: eryksun at gmail.com (eryk sun)
Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2017 02:47:11 +0000
Subject: IOError: [Errno 12] Not enough space
In-Reply-To: <8199cb7a-fded-42b1-8a76-c9a2de4d7c78@googlegroups.com>
References: <8199cb7a-fded-42b1-8a76-c9a2de4d7c78@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <CACL+1as6zD6QC4AJ=sH1jY4S+80yeZbn4sBF_7zx6e-T1WNEBg@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Apr 11, 2017 at 12:30 PM, LnT <tlnarayana at gmail.com> wrote:
> Opening browser 'firefox' to base url 'https://onbdev.nbpa.com/zae'
> [ WARN ] Keyword 'Capture Page Screenshot' could not be run on failure:
> No browser is open
> | FAIL |
> IOError: [Errno 12] Not enough space
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> I have cleared %TEMP% and reran the script.

Errno 12 is ENOMEM. It's a memory error and has nothing to do with
disk space. The fact that you're getting this error while doing I/O
seems odd if you're really using Windows 10. In Windows 7 this error
is not uncommon with console I/O, since a small 64K heap of shared
memory is used for IPC between the client and the console host
(conhost.exe). Buffers for reading from and writing to the console can
be no larger than the largest contiguous block in this shared heap.
Otherwise the request fails with ERROR_NOT_ENOUGH_MEMORY, which the
CRT translates to the errno value ENOMEM. Windows 8+ uses a kernel
device (ConDrv) for IPC between the client and console host, so it
doesn't have this limitation.


From rosuav at gmail.com  Tue Apr 11 22:55:12 2017
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2017 12:55:12 +1000
Subject: Python and the need for speed
In-Reply-To: <069ed317-abab-4980-a06c-6eafdc029653@googlegroups.com>
References: <768f9a44-5d90-4756-8a99-821253a491f8@googlegroups.com>
 <CAPTjJmrMWpzGd9Lf_sa-mscvqezY01U5kDCPRh07Nuivvxo8yg@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.5.1491710256.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <58e9e519$0$1528$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <CAPTjJmq4bCoXWryo5Jahh4he1_GP5LGjyKtJ1Mxs_XkNggi-6w@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.9.1491728745.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <58ec9192$0$1602$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <87a87mn8rc.fsf@nightsong.com>
 <58ed8c02$0$1620$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <069ed317-abab-4980-a06c-6eafdc029653@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmrHEkTNu8X+ztUgRpLtTrY2tf0RMFF2wtvy2+Ko3bfkmA@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Apr 12, 2017 at 12:29 PM, Rustom Mody <rustompmody at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I wonder if you notice Steven, that people use these examples to make
> the opposite case?
>
> When you see "python is sweet... almost as sweet as javascript"
>
> you know you are in trouble and need to start running (at least I do)
>
> http://stackabuse.com/python-async-await-tutorial/
> [last para]

Ah, yes, because JS's generators are so smooth compared to Python's.
The fact that yielded values get packaged up into {value: ..., done:
false} makes so much more sense, plus it's hugely advantageous that
you need to transpile your code to be able to actually use async
functions in anything other than the latest Chrome/Safari/Firefox.

There are two areas where JS has a really significant advantage over Python:

1) Invoking a JS async function is as simple as calling it, because
you already are running everything through an event loop. I don't
think Python should do the same, but maybe a more obvious way to do
this than ensure_future would help.

2) If you have existing code that is built on JS's promises (of which
there's a lot, but by no means all), async functions cleanly interface
with them. You can await any promise, and an async function
automatically returns a promise. So they're better integrated with the
rest of the ecosystem - or at least, that portion of the ecosystem
that jumped on the promise bandwagon. Got something that only uses
callbacks? Sorry, mate, you're out of luck.

Both of them come from the fact that JS has always been intended as an
asynchronous language - right back in the 90s, before it was all
standardized as ECMAScript, you had a setTimeout() function rather
than a sleep(). Python, meanwhile, has made it easy to write blocking
I/O in a single-threaded program, and then adds async'ness to it. So
with JS, you're adding smoothness to functionality that already
exists, but with Python, you're adding functionality to a smooth and
clean language.

ChrisA


From rantingrickjohnson at gmail.com  Tue Apr 11 23:00:01 2017
From: rantingrickjohnson at gmail.com (Rick Johnson)
Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2017 20:00:01 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Python and the need for speed
In-Reply-To: <mailman.67.1491955788.2951.python-list@python.org>
References: <768f9a44-5d90-4756-8a99-821253a491f8@googlegroups.com>
 <CAPTjJmrMWpzGd9Lf_sa-mscvqezY01U5kDCPRh07Nuivvxo8yg@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.5.1491710256.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <el01fmF900sU1@mid.individual.net>
 <CAE6NSRDLV5_f6uuUoX8EL0Y-6AiFT3wcw_UrQ50oFDwFJ8YAPw@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.18.1491827120.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <a7ded978-42fe-43f3-ad75-c94e13f67dad@googlegroups.com>
 <CAE6NSRCWPpWpUJYS2RmeU4aN9Qb8fnV=TvY+50JyLA5cC2Yezw@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.67.1491955788.2951.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <0e10d5d3-ed5a-4ddb-af50-f82eb5db3b53@googlegroups.com>

On Tuesday, April 11, 2017 at 7:10:00 PM UTC-5, Mikhail V wrote:
> On 12 April 2017 at 00:02, Rick Johnson wrote:
> > On Monday, April 10, 2017 at 7:25:48 AM UTC-5, Mikhail V wrote:
> > > Still I miss some old school features in Python, e.g.
> > > "goto" statement would be very useful in some cases.
> >
> > Are you serious?
>
> Not so serious to think it is needed much. And it easy
> enough to imagine where it would be more readable than
> setting up flags and if-blocks just to jump along the
> script.

Oh, you mean a goto that is confined to the realms of
conditional logic? I see... Hmm... perhaps i'm more
supportive of the idea after all. Do you have any Python-
centric code (or pseudo code) examples you can provide that
showcase the power of this proposed feature over the legacy
features?

> n.d., it reminds me also about the discussion about exiting
> from nested loops.

Do you have a link?



From cjw at ncf.ca  Tue Apr 11 23:07:58 2017
From: cjw at ncf.ca (Colin J. Williams)
Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2017 23:07:58 -0400
Subject: Python-list Digest, Vol 163, Issue 14
In-Reply-To: <mailman.610.1491924303.2950.python-list@python.org>
References: <mailman.610.1491924303.2950.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <8b2b14e5-0f59-4edf-e2de-da44bd630b55@ncf.ca>

Thanks Eryk,

I have today successfully installed python 3.6.1.  Next I have to tackle 
installing the whl versions of Numpy and Matplotlib.

Colin W.


On 2017-04-11 11:25 AM, python-list-request at python.org wrote:
> Send Python-list mailing list submissions to
> 	python-list at python.org
>
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> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> than "Re: Contents of Python-list digest..."
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>
> Today's Topics:
>
>     1. Re: using HTTPHandler cause Django server side shows http 400
>        and Invalid HTTP_HOST header message (iMath)
>     2. Re: using HTTPHandler cause Django server side shows http 400
>        and Invalid HTTP_HOST header message (iMath)
>     3. Re: using HTTPHandler cause Django server side shows http 400
>        and Invalid HTTP_HOST header message (iMath)
>     4. Re: Need help with getting Key, Value out of dicts in lists
>        (John Ralph)
>     5. Re: Installing Python 3.6.1 on a Windows 10 (eryk sun)
>     6. [ANN] txkube 0.1.0 (Jean-Paul Calderone)
>     7. Re: Swiss Ephemeris (Peter Henry)
>     8. how to convert this container back to format build result?
>        (Ho Yeung Lee)
>     9. RE: Swiss Ephemeris (Deborah Swanson)
>    10. Fwd: Swiss Ephemeris (Peter Henry)
>    11. RE: Swiss Ephemeris (Deborah Swanson)
>    12. Re: read in a list in a file to list (Erik)
>    13. Re: Python and the need for speed (Erik)
>    14. Re: Python and the need for speed (Chris Angelico)
>    15. Re: Pound sign problem (Steve D'Aprano)
>    16. Re: Python and the need for speed (Christian Gollwitzer)
>    17. Re: Swiss Ephemeris (Rustom Mody)
>    18. Re: Python and the need for speed (Steven D'Aprano)
>    19. Re: Python and the need for speed (Tim Golden)
>    20. Re: Python and the need for speed (Chris Angelico)
>    21. Re: Python and the need for speed (breamoreboy at gmail.com)
>    22. Re: Python and the need for speed (Chris Angelico)
>    23. Re: Python and the need for speed (Brecht Machiels)
>    24. Re: Python and the need for speed (bartc)
>    25. Re: strange behaviour when writing a large amount of data on
>        stdout (tlnarayana at gmail.com)
>    26. IOError: [Errno 12] Not enough space (LnT)
>    27. Re: Python and the need for speed (Steve D'Aprano)
>    28. Re: Temporary variables in list comprehensions (Piet van Oostrum)
>    29. Re: Python and the need for speed (Steve D'Aprano)
>    30. django user images (Xristos Xristoou)
>    31. Need webFOCUS Business Intelligence Developer
>        (Jack at nichesoftsolutions.com)
>    32. Need webFOCUS Business Intelligence Developer
>        (Jack at nichesoftsolutions.com)
>    33. Re: Python and the need for speed (Steve D'Aprano)
>    34. Re: Python and the need for speed (breamoreboy at gmail.com)
>    35. ldap search and Tuple (Alejandro Decchi)
>    36. Mcidas format (jorge.conrado at cptec.inpe.br)
>    37. Re: Pound sign problem (Lew Pitcher)
>
>



From rantingrickjohnson at gmail.com  Wed Apr 12 00:10:56 2017
From: rantingrickjohnson at gmail.com (Rick Johnson)
Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2017 21:10:56 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Python and the need for speed
In-Reply-To: <mailman.68.1491956914.2951.python-list@python.org>
References: <768f9a44-5d90-4756-8a99-821253a491f8@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.5.1491710256.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <58e9e519$0$1528$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <mailman.9.1491728745.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <58ec9192$0$1602$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <oci97l$10u4$1@gioia.aioe.org>
 <58eceea2$0$1615$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <CAE6NSRD=xU_mNECNBU2w92Br=vgHJJVqSruGFrPB=vrbpkj0Nw@mail.gmail.com>
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 <mailman.68.1491956914.2951.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <4277c149-e136-4d33-91d5-d011df9149f1@googlegroups.com>

On Tuesday, April 11, 2017 at 7:28:46 PM UTC-5, Nathan Ernst wrote:
>
> [...]
>
> Writing performant Python code is possible, but like
> writing performant code in any other language, you need to
> be aware of what's happening. This means paying attention
> to things that may cause memory allocations (which are
> largely hidden from you in Python).

But what you're asking people to do is not unlike
reinventing wheels. Some are not aware of every subtle case
that will cause a bottleneck. For this reason, it would be
wise to create a database where these bottlenecks can be
logged, with the intention of creating a python optimizing
tool at some time in the future. Like you said, since a
large subset of python coders are not CS majors, we cannot
expect them to understand Python at such a fundamental level
as someone such as GvR. That is the price of creating a
language that abstracts away all the dirty details so that
laymen can wield it. But just as Python should _never_ seg-
fault (but it does!), high level languages like Python
should make it difficult, if not impossible, to write sub-
optimal code (at least in the blatantly obvious cases). The
whole fundamental nature of Python is to relieve the
programmer of all the onerous tedium and drudgery (memory
management, cryptic syntaxes, etc...), so that the
programmer's mental energy can be devoted solely to the
creative demands of logic and interfaces.

> I worked on http://www.marketswiki.com/wiki/CMDX - in
> particular I wrote most of the Migration Utility mentioned
> to migrate paper CDS trades to standardized CDS contracts
> against CME. Most of the migration util was written in
> native Python 2.5 (it was written in 2008) using a single
> thread. Performance wasn't super critical, but desired. At
> the end of the project, I was processing ~100K positions
> per second.

Yeah, but what kind of hardware were you running it on? It
seems in this case, that you wrote up a utility and ran it
on a machine of your choosing, but not all developers have
the advantage of choosing which machine their code executes
on. Most code is written and released for mass consumption on
client machines which come in all shapes and sizes. Sure,
you can write sloppy code on a top-of-the-line hardware and
not notice, but try the same code on a windoze 95 box and
see what happens...

> Threading in Python is bad - don't bother (until we can get
> rid of the GIL, I doubt the situation will improve).

If you search the archives (and internet) for "remove GIL",
you'll find more hits than you could parse in a lifetime.
Basically, the community has been begging for the GIL to be
removed since the early 90s, but the Python royalty have no
interest to do so. And the reasons for this could be many. I
have my personal suspicions...

> If you have a performance problem with Python, before you
> blame Python, take a step back and look at your own code
> (or libraries you're using) and ask yourself: "Is my code
> optimal?"
>
> Yes, Python is not the faster language/runtime in
> existence. But for probably 99%

I don't think it's fair to make broad-brushed assertions as
to the technical prowess of everyday Python programmers.
Perhaps the incidents of non-optimal code are high, but 99%
is difficult to swallow and sounds an awful lot like
hyperbole. And although i'm sure some folks here will lap-up
such gross exaggerations with prideful glee, sorry, but i'm
not one of them.



From no.email at nospam.invalid  Wed Apr 12 00:32:06 2017
From: no.email at nospam.invalid (Paul Rubin)
Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2017 21:32:06 -0700
Subject: Python and the need for speed
References: <768f9a44-5d90-4756-8a99-821253a491f8@googlegroups.com>
 <CAPTjJmrMWpzGd9Lf_sa-mscvqezY01U5kDCPRh07Nuivvxo8yg@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.5.1491710256.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <58e9e519$0$1528$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <CAPTjJmq4bCoXWryo5Jahh4he1_GP5LGjyKtJ1Mxs_XkNggi-6w@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.9.1491728745.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <58ec9192$0$1602$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <87a87mn8rc.fsf@nightsong.com>
 <58ed8c02$0$1620$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <069ed317-abab-4980-a06c-6eafdc029653@googlegroups.com>
 <CAPTjJmrHEkTNu8X+ztUgRpLtTrY2tf0RMFF2wtvy2+Ko3bfkmA@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.73.1491965716.2951.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <87r30yjlfd.fsf@nightsong.com>

Chris Angelico <rosuav at gmail.com> writes:
> Python, meanwhile, has made it easy to write blocking
> I/O in a single-threaded program, and then adds async'ness to it.

I'd be interested to know how to open a disk file asynchronously in a
single-threaded Python program under Linux.  As far as I can tell there
is no way to do it.


From rantingrickjohnson at gmail.com  Wed Apr 12 00:41:28 2017
From: rantingrickjohnson at gmail.com (Rick Johnson)
Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2017 21:41:28 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Python and the need for speed
In-Reply-To: <mailman.69.1491957877.2951.python-list@python.org>
References: <768f9a44-5d90-4756-8a99-821253a491f8@googlegroups.com>
 <CAPTjJmrMWpzGd9Lf_sa-mscvqezY01U5kDCPRh07Nuivvxo8yg@mail.gmail.com>
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 <el01fmF900sU1@mid.individual.net>
 <CAE6NSRDLV5_f6uuUoX8EL0Y-6AiFT3wcw_UrQ50oFDwFJ8YAPw@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.18.1491827120.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <a7ded978-42fe-43f3-ad75-c94e13f67dad@googlegroups.com>
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 <mailman.69.1491957877.2951.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <047a3e70-c627-413a-9d9a-35e2b345f61d@googlegroups.com>

On Tuesday, April 11, 2017 at 7:44:49 PM UTC-5, Nathan Ernst wrote:
> goto is a misunderstood and much misaligned creature. It is
> a very useful feature, but like nearly any programming
> construct can be abused.  Constructs like 'break',
> 'continue' or 'next' in languages like Python or C/C++ are
> goto's with implied labels.  As Mikhail said, goto's can be
> great to break out of nested loops (only a handful of
> languages support named 'breaks'). So, instead of:
>
> bool found = false;
> for (int i = 0; i = ...; ++i)
> {
>  for (int h = 0; h = ...; ++h)
>  {
>    if (some_condition)
>      found = true;
>  }
>  if (found) break;
> }
>
> You can have:
>
> for (int i = 0; i = ...; ++i)
> {
>  for (int h = 0; h = ...; ++h)
>  {
>    if (some_condition)
>      goto found;
>  }
> }
> // not found
>
> found:
> // handle found
>

I'll admit, that in a few cases of deeply nested loops, i
have purposely stripped out the nested code and wrapped it
in a function so i could take advantage of return, because
indeed, flags are distracting. However, i don't think this
one example is enough to warrent a goto. Unless you can
provide more than one legitimate use for goto, i'd rather
support a new keyword like "breakall". In fact, the more i
think about it, the more i realize that it should have been
"breaklocal" and "breakglobal" all along! Hmm, how would goto
handle a logic that required both a local and a global
break within the same nested loop structure?

> The second is better for a number of reasons: it's clearer.
> It has fewer variables (smaller stack), it has fewer
> branches (better for the CPU's branch prediction), and it
> has fewer instructions (better for CPU instruction cache).
> This is a trivial, contrived example, but I've seen more
> than 4x nested loops using an exit flag like this (at every
> level of the loops) that could have been replaced with a
> lot less code.

But it also requires a named target. (Although i'll admit,
goto does offer more _flexibility_ over a single
"breakglobal" keyword)



From rosuav at gmail.com  Wed Apr 12 01:01:20 2017
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2017 15:01:20 +1000
Subject: Python and the need for speed
In-Reply-To: <87r30yjlfd.fsf@nightsong.com>
References: <768f9a44-5d90-4756-8a99-821253a491f8@googlegroups.com>
 <CAPTjJmrMWpzGd9Lf_sa-mscvqezY01U5kDCPRh07Nuivvxo8yg@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.5.1491710256.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <58e9e519$0$1528$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <CAPTjJmq4bCoXWryo5Jahh4he1_GP5LGjyKtJ1Mxs_XkNggi-6w@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.9.1491728745.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <58ec9192$0$1602$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <87a87mn8rc.fsf@nightsong.com>
 <58ed8c02$0$1620$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <069ed317-abab-4980-a06c-6eafdc029653@googlegroups.com>
 <CAPTjJmrHEkTNu8X+ztUgRpLtTrY2tf0RMFF2wtvy2+Ko3bfkmA@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.73.1491965716.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <87r30yjlfd.fsf@nightsong.com>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmpOkEsDK8gvL8acksyrpqRrpesOauvLhfvvkkNHiGMr-Q@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Apr 12, 2017 at 2:32 PM, Paul Rubin <no.email at nospam.invalid> wrote:
> Chris Angelico <rosuav at gmail.com> writes:
>> Python, meanwhile, has made it easy to write blocking
>> I/O in a single-threaded program, and then adds async'ness to it.
>
> I'd be interested to know how to open a disk file asynchronously in a
> single-threaded Python program under Linux.  As far as I can tell there
> is no way to do it.

I'm not sure how Node does it. But most of JavaScript/ECMAScript has
historically been aimed at web browsers, where you're not allowed to
open files as such, but you _can_ make HTTP requests. It's also
entirely possible to have a single "application thread" and then a
"file opening thread" that does nothing but open files; your app is
still single threaded (thus you don't have concurrency concerns), but
file opening becomes truly asynchronous.

Oh, and Python also has to cope with a bit more complexity because
it's possible to start multiple application threads in Python. It's
not in JS.

ChrisA


From no.email at nospam.invalid  Wed Apr 12 01:26:49 2017
From: no.email at nospam.invalid (Paul Rubin)
Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2017 22:26:49 -0700
Subject: Python and the need for speed
References: <768f9a44-5d90-4756-8a99-821253a491f8@googlegroups.com>
 <CAPTjJmrMWpzGd9Lf_sa-mscvqezY01U5kDCPRh07Nuivvxo8yg@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.5.1491710256.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <58e9e519$0$1528$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <CAPTjJmq4bCoXWryo5Jahh4he1_GP5LGjyKtJ1Mxs_XkNggi-6w@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.9.1491728745.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <58ec9192$0$1602$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <87a87mn8rc.fsf@nightsong.com>
 <58ed8c02$0$1620$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <069ed317-abab-4980-a06c-6eafdc029653@googlegroups.com>
 <CAPTjJmrHEkTNu8X+ztUgRpLtTrY2tf0RMFF2wtvy2+Ko3bfkmA@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.73.1491965716.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <87r30yjlfd.fsf@nightsong.com>
 <CAPTjJmpOkEsDK8gvL8acksyrpqRrpesOauvLhfvvkkNHiGMr-Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.74.1491973283.2951.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <87inmajiw6.fsf@nightsong.com>

Chris Angelico <rosuav at gmail.com> writes:
> It's also entirely possible to have a single "application thread" and
> then a "file opening thread" that does nothing but open files;

Thanks.  I think GHC and Erlang BEAM both do that.  I hoped there was a
better way.  Note you potentially need multiple file opening threads.

> your app is still single threaded (thus you don't have concurrency
> concerns), but file opening becomes truly asynchronous.

Of course you still have concurrency concerns, plus you have to be very
very careful that nothing ever blocks.  I've generally preferred in
Python to use threads communicating by message passing through queues.
This is pretty safe if you remember to not having any mutable objects
shared between threads.  Of course I like the way Erlang does it even
more, with isolated lightweight processes.

> Oh, and Python also has to cope with a bit more complexity because
> it's possible to start multiple application threads in Python. It's
> not in JS.

Yeah I'm not sure of the JS situation.  C++11 has futures and promises
and I've been wanting to try to use them, but it's still on my
infinitely deep stack of stuff to do.  This looks amazing though:

  http://www.seastar-project.org/


From tlnarayana at gmail.com  Wed Apr 12 01:42:59 2017
From: tlnarayana at gmail.com (LnT)
Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2017 22:42:59 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: IOError: [Errno 12] Not enough space
In-Reply-To: <mailman.72.1491965280.2951.python-list@python.org>
References: <8199cb7a-fded-42b1-8a76-c9a2de4d7c78@googlegroups.com>
 <CACL+1as6zD6QC4AJ=sH1jY4S+80yeZbn4sBF_7zx6e-T1WNEBg@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.72.1491965280.2951.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <b061d484-bee7-4076-97f0-53084e6dfd97@googlegroups.com>

Hello eryk sun,
Thanks so much for your input.

could you please advice.
1) Any workaround for this issue ?
2) is it good to report issue in Windows OS help desk ?

Regards,
LnT



On Wednesday, April 12, 2017 at 8:18:11 AM UTC+5:30, eryk sun wrote:
> On Tue, Apr 11, 2017 at 12:30 PM, LnT <tlnarayana at gmail.com> wrote:
> > Opening browser 'firefox' to base url 'https://onbdev.nbpa.com/zae'
> > [ WARN ] Keyword 'Capture Page Screenshot' could not be run on failure:
> > No browser is open
> > | FAIL |
> > IOError: [Errno 12] Not enough space
> > --------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > I have cleared %TEMP% and reran the script.
> 
> Errno 12 is ENOMEM. It's a memory error and has nothing to do with
> disk space. The fact that you're getting this error while doing I/O
> seems odd if you're really using Windows 10. In Windows 7 this error
> is not uncommon with console I/O, since a small 64K heap of shared
> memory is used for IPC between the client and the console host
> (conhost.exe). Buffers for reading from and writing to the console can
> be no larger than the largest contiguous block in this shared heap.
> Otherwise the request fails with ERROR_NOT_ENOUGH_MEMORY, which the
> CRT translates to the errno value ENOMEM. Windows 8+ uses a kernel
> device (ConDrv) for IPC between the client and console host, so it
> doesn't have this limitation.



From tlnarayana at gmail.com  Wed Apr 12 01:48:33 2017
From: tlnarayana at gmail.com (LnT)
Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2017 22:48:33 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: IOError: [Errno 12] Not enough space
In-Reply-To: <58ed0e3c$0$829$e4fe514c@news.xs4all.nl>
References: <8199cb7a-fded-42b1-8a76-c9a2de4d7c78@googlegroups.com>
 <58ed0e3c$0$829$e4fe514c@news.xs4all.nl>
Message-ID: <1c25e713-65dc-4dcf-97eb-a6a7149d608b@googlegroups.com>

Hi Irmen,

1) yes. its Python 2.7
2) Since windows 10 machine is a VM ,Only drive is available C and is provided 60GB for both OS and other softwares like java and python.

And still 20GB free space is available.

This python script does - open web application and capture the screenshot of the webpage incase any functionality Fail?

Hope this information is suffice.
Let me know , if you need more specific logs to be captured ?

Regards,
LnT


On Tuesday, April 11, 2017 at 10:41:36 PM UTC+5:30, Irmen de Jong wrote:
> On 11-4-2017 14:30, LnT wrote:
> > Hi,
> > 
> > version information
> > 
> > python 27
> 
> Please be more precise, there is no Python 27. (Yeah it is clear you meant 2.7 but still)
> 
> > java version "1.8.0_111"
> That should not be relevant
> 
> > OS -Win 10 , 64Bit , 8GB RAM , 60GB HD
> 
> 60 GB is not a lot of space for windows...
> 
> 
> > executing python test script (robotframework) for a we bapplication 
> > Application url will be invoked by Firefox 38.0
> > 
> > Please find below log:
> > --------------------------------------------------------------------
> > Opening browser 'firefox' to base url 'https://onbdev.nbpa.com/zae'
> > [ WARN ] Keyword 'Capture Page Screenshot' could not be run on failure: No browser is open
> > | FAIL |
> > IOError: [Errno 12] Not enough space
> > --------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> That's not much information. Is there really not anything else in the log? Like a
> traceback, that may give some clues what the application is doing when it is running out
> of disk space?
> 
> 
> > 
> > I have cleared %TEMP% and reran the script.
> > But still I see this.
> > 
> > Could you please show me some Light ?
> > 
> 
> Based on the info you provided, the only solution I can think of is: free more space.
> Something in your application is trying to write stuff and there's simply not enough
> space on the disk to do so.
> 
> 
> -i



From tlnarayana at gmail.com  Wed Apr 12 01:54:43 2017
From: tlnarayana at gmail.com (LnT)
Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2017 22:54:43 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: IOError: [Errno 12] Not enough space
In-Reply-To: <58ed0e3c$0$829$e4fe514c@news.xs4all.nl>
References: <8199cb7a-fded-42b1-8a76-c9a2de4d7c78@googlegroups.com>
 <58ed0e3c$0$829$e4fe514c@news.xs4all.nl>
Message-ID: <dc305071-b179-4e50-a087-185afbb67fd2@googlegroups.com>


Hi Irmen,

you may please find full log @ https://pastebin.mozilla.org/9018753

Regards,
LnT

On Tuesday, April 11, 2017 at 10:41:36 PM UTC+5:30, Irmen de Jong wrote:
> On 11-4-2017 14:30, LnT wrote:
> > Hi,
> > 
> > version information
> > 
> > python 27
> 
> Please be more precise, there is no Python 27. (Yeah it is clear you meant 2.7 but still)
> 
> > java version "1.8.0_111"
> That should not be relevant
> 
> > OS -Win 10 , 64Bit , 8GB RAM , 60GB HD
> 
> 60 GB is not a lot of space for windows...
> 
> 
> > executing python test script (robotframework) for a we bapplication 
> > Application url will be invoked by Firefox 38.0
> > 
> > Please find below log:
> > --------------------------------------------------------------------
> > Opening browser 'firefox' to base url 'https://onbdev.nbpa.com/zae'
> > [ WARN ] Keyword 'Capture Page Screenshot' could not be run on failure: No browser is open
> > | FAIL |
> > IOError: [Errno 12] Not enough space
> > --------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> That's not much information. Is there really not anything else in the log? Like a
> traceback, that may give some clues what the application is doing when it is running out
> of disk space?
> 
> 
> > 
> > I have cleared %TEMP% and reran the script.
> > But still I see this.
> > 
> > Could you please show me some Light ?
> > 
> 
> Based on the info you provided, the only solution I can think of is: free more space.
> Something in your application is trying to write stuff and there's simply not enough
> space on the disk to do so.
> 
> 
> -i



From grownbetterwe at gmail.com  Wed Apr 12 01:55:41 2017
From: grownbetterwe at gmail.com (grownbetterwe at gmail.com)
Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2017 22:55:41 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: download redtube video - Free
In-Reply-To: <ce91d9a2-a6f2-4e8e-8d23-716fb6cb053a@26g2000hsk.googlegroups.com>
References: <ce91d9a2-a6f2-4e8e-8d23-716fb6cb053a@26g2000hsk.googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <0dd464cd-447f-4239-a302-a0c3e15c2ea6@googlegroups.com>

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> download redtube video
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> *****************************
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From greg.ewing at canterbury.ac.nz  Wed Apr 12 02:17:50 2017
From: greg.ewing at canterbury.ac.nz (Gregory Ewing)
Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2017 18:17:50 +1200
Subject: Python and the need for speed
In-Reply-To: <87a87mn8rc.fsf@nightsong.com>
References: <768f9a44-5d90-4756-8a99-821253a491f8@googlegroups.com>	<CAPTjJmrMWpzGd9Lf_sa-mscvqezY01U5kDCPRh07Nuivvxo8yg@mail.gmail.com>	<mailman.5.1491710256.2951.python-list@python.org>	<58e9e519$0$1528$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>	<CAPTjJmq4bCoXWryo5Jahh4he1_GP5LGjyKtJ1Mxs_XkNggi-6w@mail.gmail.com>	<mailman.9.1491728745.2951.python-list@python.org>	<58ec9192$0$1602$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <87a87mn8rc.fsf@nightsong.com>
Message-ID: <el5v4gFdrc6U1@mid.individual.net>

Paul Rubin wrote:
> Or you could look at the past 50 years(!) of Lisp and Scheme compilers
> some of which produce very good code, ask what Python features can't be
> straightforwardly transliterated into Lisp to use those compilers,

Lisp and Scheme are much less dynamic than Python. The problem
of translating Python code into efficient Lisp or Scheme isn't
really much different from translating it into efficient
machine code, or Java bytecode, or whatever. Type information
is needed, either explicitly written in, or inferred, or JITted.

-- 
Greg


From tjreedy at udel.edu  Wed Apr 12 02:24:29 2017
From: tjreedy at udel.edu (Terry Reedy)
Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2017 02:24:29 -0400
Subject: Python and the need for speed
In-Reply-To: <87fuhelapu.fsf@nightsong.com>
References: <768f9a44-5d90-4756-8a99-821253a491f8@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.5.1491710256.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <58e9e519$0$1528$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <mailman.9.1491728745.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <58ec9192$0$1602$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <oci97l$10u4$1@gioia.aioe.org>
 <58eceea2$0$1615$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <CAE6NSRD=xU_mNECNBU2w92Br=vgHJJVqSruGFrPB=vrbpkj0Nw@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.60.1491944323.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <87fuhelapu.fsf@nightsong.com>
Message-ID: <ockh6p$hvn$1@blaine.gmane.org>

On 4/11/2017 8:40 PM, Paul Rubin wrote:
> Mikhail V <mikhailwas at gmail.com> writes:
>> Just my curiosity, I've always been intersted in such question: are devs
>> still writing extensions in C, I mean type in C code?
>
> Yes.
>
>> Aren't they using some translator or IDE which at lest hides the
>> brackets and semicolons?
>
> I don't know of anyone who does that.  I don't think anyone minds C's
> brackets and semicolons, and lots of other languages like Java and Perl

People who do, like me, may avoid using C.  I am really grateful that 
there are people willing to maintain the C code for CPython ;-).

> use them too, for programmer familiarity.  The actual difficulty with C
> is that it gives rise to a high incidence of hard-to-diagnose bugs.

-- 
Terry Jan Reedy



From steve at pearwood.info  Wed Apr 12 02:48:50 2017
From: steve at pearwood.info (Steven D'Aprano)
Date: 12 Apr 2017 06:48:50 GMT
Subject: Python and the need for speed
References: <768f9a44-5d90-4756-8a99-821253a491f8@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.5.1491710256.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <58e9e519$0$1528$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <mailman.9.1491728745.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <58ec9192$0$1602$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <oci97l$10u4$1@gioia.aioe.org>
 <58eceea2$0$1615$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <CAE6NSRD=xU_mNECNBU2w92Br=vgHJJVqSruGFrPB=vrbpkj0Nw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPjBxg_49OD_CNXUAHKjxYsUiLab4s_fCs_Ast3LyymB82zTCA@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.68.1491956914.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <4277c149-e136-4d33-91d5-d011df9149f1@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <58edcdd2$0$1501$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>

On Tue, 11 Apr 2017 21:10:56 -0700, Rick Johnson wrote:

> high level languages like Python should make it difficult, if not
> impossible, to write sub-
> optimal code (at least in the blatantly obvious cases).


You mean that Python should make it impossible to write:

    near_limit = []
    near_limit.append(1)
    near_limit = len(near_limit)


instead of:

    near_limit = 1


? I look forward to seeing your version of RickPython that can enforce 
that rule.

Oh, in case you think I'm making this up, this example came from some 
real-life code:

https://mail.python.org/pipermail//python-list/2016-August/712673.html



Here's another example:

    answer = 0
    for i in range(10):
        answer += 1


instead of 

    answer = 10




So... how exactly does the compiler prohibit stupid code?


-- 
Steve


From ian.g.kelly at gmail.com  Wed Apr 12 02:55:18 2017
From: ian.g.kelly at gmail.com (Ian Kelly)
Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2017 00:55:18 -0600
Subject: Python and the need for speed
In-Reply-To: <58ed8c02$0$1620$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
References: <768f9a44-5d90-4756-8a99-821253a491f8@googlegroups.com>
 <CAPTjJmrMWpzGd9Lf_sa-mscvqezY01U5kDCPRh07Nuivvxo8yg@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.5.1491710256.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <58e9e519$0$1528$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <CAPTjJmq4bCoXWryo5Jahh4he1_GP5LGjyKtJ1Mxs_XkNggi-6w@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.9.1491728745.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <58ec9192$0$1602$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <87a87mn8rc.fsf@nightsong.com>
 <58ed8c02$0$1620$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
Message-ID: <CALwzidmHVQfrFzYv9NNKrjWS-BbzvEpJZGTE79SxUuED2s_Cfg@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Apr 11, 2017 at 8:08 PM, Steve D'Aprano
<steve+python at pearwood.info> wrote:
> Comprehensions may have been around for a decade or two in Haskell, but most
> older languages don't have them. I'm pretty sure Java doesn't.

Java does not have comprehensions per se, but the Streams API
introduced in Java 8 is similar in concept and also much more powerful
-- for example, streams can be executed either serially or in
parallel, which is not a feature of any list comprehension I've ever
seen.

https://docs.oracle.com/javase/8/docs/api/java/util/stream/package-summary.html

> Does
> Javascript? Comprehensions feel like a fancy new language feature to me.

ES6 was going to include array comprehensions and generator
comprehensions but these didn't make it into the final version. My
understanding is that they were deferred because the committee hoped
to come up with something more LINQ-like, which I think is also
greatly motivated by parallelism concerns.


From vincent.vande.vyvre at telenet.be  Wed Apr 12 02:57:07 2017
From: vincent.vande.vyvre at telenet.be (Vincent Vande Vyvre)
Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2017 08:57:07 +0200
Subject: CPython Class variable exposed to Python is altered.
Message-ID: <5824dded-cd31-90d0-6044-edc132daf071@telenet.be>

Hi,

Learning CPython, I've made this simple exercice, a module test which 
contains an object Test.

The object Test has an attribute name, fixed at instanciation.

So, I try my code with a script:

-------------------------------------------
from test import Test

for n in ("The name", "Foo", "Spam"):
     t = Test(n)
     print("%s --> %s" %(n, t.name))
-------------------------------------------

And the return:

Uhe name --> Uhe name
Goo --> Goo
Tpam --> Tpam

As we can see, the first letter is changed with the next letter in 
alphabetical order, but not only for the attribute name, also for the 
reference n.

Same into a console:

(py352_venv) vincent at djoliba:~/CPython/py352_venv/pydcraw$ python
Python 3.5.2 (default, Dec 19 2016, 11:46:33)
[GCC 4.8.4] on linux
Type "help", "copyright", "credits" or "license" for more information.
 >>> from test import Test
 >>> for n in ("The name", "Foo", "Spam"):
...     t = Test(n)
...     print("%s --> %s" %(n, t.name))
...
Uhe name --> Uhe name
Goo --> Goo
Tpam --> Tpam


I'm working in a venv.

The testmodule.c is attached.


The setup.py
------------------------------------------------
from distutils.core import setup, Extension
setup(name="test", version="1.0",
       ext_modules=[
          Extension("test", ["testmodule.c"],
                    libraries=[])
          ])
------------------------------------------------


Best,


Vincent



From vincent.vande.vyvre at telenet.be  Wed Apr 12 03:23:17 2017
From: vincent.vande.vyvre at telenet.be (Vincent Vande Vyvre)
Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2017 09:23:17 +0200
Subject: CPython Class variable exposed to Python is altered.
In-Reply-To: <5824dded-cd31-90d0-6044-edc132daf071@telenet.be>
References: <5824dded-cd31-90d0-6044-edc132daf071@telenet.be>
Message-ID: <816bdd8e-e22a-7237-75a8-01783d468bcc@telenet.be>

Le 12/04/17 ? 08:57, Vincent Vande Vyvre a ?crit :
> Hi,
>
> Learning CPython, I've made this simple exercice, a module test which 
> contains an object Test.
>
> The object Test has an attribute name, fixed at instanciation.
>
> So, I try my code with a script:
>
> -------------------------------------------
> from test import Test
>
> for n in ("The name", "Foo", "Spam"):
>     t = Test(n)
>     print("%s --> %s" %(n, t.name))
> -------------------------------------------
>
> And the return:
>
> Uhe name --> Uhe name
> Goo --> Goo
> Tpam --> Tpam
>
> As we can see, the first letter is changed with the next letter in 
> alphabetical order, but not only for the attribute name, also for the 
> reference n.
>
> Same into a console:
>
> (py352_venv) vincent at djoliba:~/CPython/py352_venv/pydcraw$ python
> Python 3.5.2 (default, Dec 19 2016, 11:46:33)
> [GCC 4.8.4] on linux
> Type "help", "copyright", "credits" or "license" for more information.
> >>> from test import Test
> >>> for n in ("The name", "Foo", "Spam"):
> ...     t = Test(n)
> ...     print("%s --> %s" %(n, t.name))
> ...
> Uhe name --> Uhe name
> Goo --> Goo
> Tpam --> Tpam
>
>
> I'm working in a venv.
>
> The testmodule.c is attached.
>
>
> The setup.py
> ------------------------------------------------
> from distutils.core import setup, Extension
> setup(name="test", version="1.0",
>       ext_modules=[
>          Extension("test", ["testmodule.c"],
>                    libraries=[])
>          ])
> ------------------------------------------------
>
>
> Best,
>
>
> Vincent
>
I see the attachement is rejected.


This is the testmodule.c

-----------------------------------------------------------

#include <Python.h>
#include "structmember.h"


typedef struct {
     PyObject_HEAD
     PyObject *name;
} Test;

static void
Test_dealloc(Test* self)
{
     Py_XDECREF(self->name);
}

static PyObject *
Test_new(PyTypeObject *type, PyObject *args, PyObject *kwds)
{
     Test *self;

     self = (Test *)type->tp_alloc(type, 0);
     if (self != NULL){
         self->name = PyUnicode_FromString("");
         if (self->name == NULL){
             Py_DECREF(self);
             return NULL;
         }
     }

     return (PyObject *)self;
}

static int
Test_init(Test *self, PyObject *args, PyObject *kwds)
{
     PyObject *name, *tmp;
     static char *kwlist[] = {"name", NULL};

     if (!PyArg_ParseTupleAndKeywords(args, kwds, "s|", kwlist, &name))
         return -1;

     if (name) {
         tmp = self->name;
         Py_INCREF(name);
         self->name = name;
         Py_XDECREF(tmp);
     }

     return 0;
}

static PyMemberDef Test_members[] = {
     {"name", T_STRING, offsetof(Test, name), 0,
      "The object name"},
     {NULL}  /* Sentinel */
};

static PyMethodDef Test_methods[] = {
     {NULL} /* sentinel */
};

static PyTypeObject TestType = {
     PyVarObject_HEAD_INIT(NULL, 0)
     "test.Test",                  /* tp_name */
     sizeof(Test),                 /* tp_basicsize */
     0,                            /* tp_itemsize */
     (destructor)Test_dealloc,     /* tp_dealloc */
     0,                            /* tp_print */
     0,                            /* tp_getattr */
     0,                            /* tp_setattr */
     0,                            /* tp_reserved */
     0,                            /* tp_repr */
     0,                            /* tp_as_number */
     0,                            /* tp_as_sequence */
     0,                            /* tp_as_mapping */
     0,                            /* tp_hash  */
     0,                            /* tp_call */
     0,                            /* tp_str */
     0,                            /* tp_getattro */
     0,                            /* tp_setattro */
     0,                            /* tp_as_buffer */
     Py_TPFLAGS_DEFAULT |
         Py_TPFLAGS_BASETYPE,      /* tp_flags */
     "Test object",                /* tp_doc */
     0,                            /* tp_traverse */
     0,                            /* tp_clear */
     0,                            /* tp_richcompare */
     0,                            /* tp_weaklistoffset */
     0,                            /* tp_iter */
     0,                            /* tp_iternext */
     Test_methods,                 /* tp_methods */
     Test_members,                 /* tp_members */
     0,                            /* tp_getset */
     0,                            /* tp_base */
     0,                            /* tp_dict */
     0,                            /* tp_descr_get */
     0,                            /* tp_descr_set */
     0,                            /* tp_dictoffset */
     (initproc)Test_init,          /* tp_init */
     0,                            /* tp_alloc */
     Test_new,                     /* tp_new */
};

static PyModuleDef testmodule = {
     PyModuleDef_HEAD_INIT,
     "test",
     "Example module.",
     -1,
     NULL, NULL, NULL, NULL, NULL
};

PyMODINIT_FUNC
PyInit_test(void)
{
     PyObject* m;

     if (PyType_Ready(&TestType) < 0)
         return NULL;

     m = PyModule_Create(&testmodule);
     if (m == NULL)
         return NULL;

     Py_INCREF(&TestType);
     PyModule_AddObject(m, "Test", (PyObject *)&TestType);
     return m;
}

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------



From abhishek.physics01 at gmail.com  Wed Apr 12 03:55:13 2017
From: abhishek.physics01 at gmail.com (Abhishek Kumar)
Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2017 00:55:13 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Inclusion of of python and python libraries licensed with BSD- 3
 clause license in proprietary software
In-Reply-To: <58ed85f8$0$1583$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
References: <a78de867-9924-4e6a-8128-676e53e6d1aa@googlegroups.com>
 <58ed85f8$0$1583$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
Message-ID: <d71e3190-19f3-41ef-9d38-7b050e9a50fc@googlegroups.com>

On Wednesday, 12 April 2017 07:12:27 UTC+5:30, Steve D'Aprano  wrote:
> On Wed, 12 Apr 2017 06:35 am, Abhishek Kumar wrote:
> 
> > Hello,
> > 
> > I tried finding the answer but even the lawyers  in my town have no idea
> 
> Where is your town?
> 
> 
> > about it and searching the web leaved me puzzled.
> 
> What have you tried?
> 
> The first few links found here:
> 
> https://duckduckgo.com/?q=BSD-3+licence+faqs
> 
> 
> seem pretty easy to understand. It's a very short and simple licence,
> precisely because it puts very few requirements on you. If you are using
> Library X (which is under the BSD-3 licence) then all you need do to meet
> the licence requirements is to include Library X's copyright notice and
> licence. You don't have to provide the source code to Library X, or to your
> own application.
> 
> 
> > I am planning to make a software in python which will include libraries 
> > licensed under BSD- 3 clause. Can I sell this software  under proprietary 
> > license 
> 
> Yes.
> 
> 
> > and legally inhibit redistribution by users under my own license. 
> 
> Yes.
> 
> 
> > Also if you know anyone who holds knowledge in this field then please do
> > let me know.. Your response will be really helpful.
> > 
> > Regards,
> > Abhishek Kumar
> > ?
> 
> -- 
> Steve
> ?Cheer up,? they said, ?things could be worse.? So I cheered up, and sure
> enough, things got worse.

Hello,
I'm living in Pune(India) the lawyers keep on giving different answers some yes you can distribute the software under proprietary license and restrict users from ditributing it in any form while other negate it..
A tried googling and like the lawyers got different answers..
So I posted in stack exchange here is the the link :

http://opensource.stackexchange.com/questions/5361/use-of-bsd-3-clause-license-and-python-software-license-for-proprietary-use?
 
I hope you have an experience(legal) in software license Also if you know some one who holds a knowledge in software licenses then please do let me know..   
Regards,
Abhishek


From jfong at ms4.hinet.net  Wed Apr 12 04:08:07 2017
From: jfong at ms4.hinet.net (jfong at ms4.hinet.net)
Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2017 01:08:07 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: What is the difference between x[:]=y and x=y[:]?
Message-ID: <aa829ad5-533a-4b39-ad39-1bb08ee43116@googlegroups.com>

I have a list of list and like to expand each "list element" by appending a 1 and a 0 to it. For example, from "lr = [[1], [0]]" expand to "lr = [[1,1], [0,1], [1,0], [0,0]]".

The following won't work:

Python 3.4.4 (v3.4.4:737efcadf5a6, Dec 20 2015, 19:28:18) [MSC v.1600 32 bit (Intel)] on win32
Type "help", "copyright", "credits" or "license" for more information.
>>> lr = [[1], [0]]
>>> lx = []
>>> for i in range(len(lr)):
...     lx[:] = lr[i]
...     lx.append(0)
...     lr[i].append(1)
...     lr.append(lx)
...
>>> lr
[[1, 1], [0, 1], [0, 0], [0, 0]]
>>>

But the following does:

>>> lr = [[1], [0]]
>>> lx = []
>>> for i in range(len(lr)):
...     lx = lr[i][:]
...     lx.append(0)
...     lr[i].append(1)
...     lr.append(lx)
...
>>> lr
[[1, 1], [0, 1], [1, 0], [0, 0]]
>>>

After stepping through the first one manually:

>>> lr = [[1], [0]]   
>>> lx[:] = lr[0]     
>>> lx.append(0)      
>>> lx                
[1, 0]                
>>> lr[0].append(1)   
>>> lr                
[[1, 1], [0]]         
>>> lr.append(lx)     
>>> lr                
[[1, 1], [0], [1, 0]] 
>>>                   

So far so good...

>>> lx[:] = lr[1]        
>>> lx.append(0)         
>>> lx                   
[0, 0]                   
>>> lr[1].append(1)      
>>> lr                   
[[1, 1], [0, 1], [0, 0]] 
>>>

Woops! What's wrong?

--Jach Fong



From alister.ware at ntlworld.com  Wed Apr 12 04:33:13 2017
From: alister.ware at ntlworld.com (alister)
Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2017 08:33:13 GMT
Subject: What is the difference between x[:]=y and x=y[:]?
References: <aa829ad5-533a-4b39-ad39-1bb08ee43116@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <dDlHA.355297$y83.308420@fx30.am4>

On Wed, 12 Apr 2017 01:08:07 -0700, jfong wrote:

> I have a list of list and like to expand each "list element" by
> appending a 1 and a 0 to it. For example, from "lr = [[1], [0]]" expand
> to "lr = [[1,1], [0,1], [1,0], [0,0]]".
> 
> The following won't work:
> 
> Python 3.4.4 (v3.4.4:737efcadf5a6, Dec 20 2015, 19:28:18) [MSC v.1600 32
> bit (Intel)] on win32 Type "help", "copyright", "credits" or "license"
> for more information.
>>>> lr = [[1], [0]]
>>>> lx = []
>>>> for i in range(len(lr)):
> ...     lx[:] = lr[i]
> ...     lx.append(0)
> ...     lr[i].append(1)
> ...     lr.append(lx)
> ...
>>>> lr
> [[1, 1], [0, 1], [0, 0], [0, 0]]
>>>>
>>>>
> But the following does:
> 
>>>> lr = [[1], [0]]
>>>> lx = []
>>>> for i in range(len(lr)):
> ...     lx = lr[i][:]
> ...     lx.append(0)
> ...     lr[i].append(1)
> ...     lr.append(lx)
> ...
>>>> lr
> [[1, 1], [0, 1], [1, 0], [0, 0]]
>>>>
>>>>
> After stepping through the first one manually:
> 
>>>> lr = [[1], [0]]
>>>> lx[:] = lr[0] lx.append(0)
>>>> lx
> [1, 0]
>>>> lr[0].append(1)
>>>> lr
> [[1, 1], [0]]
>>>> lr.append(lx)
>>>> lr
> [[1, 1], [0], [1, 0]]
>>>>                   
>>>>                   
> So far so good...
> 
>>>> lx[:] = lr[1] lx.append(0)
>>>> lx
> [0, 0]
>>>> lr[1].append(1)
>>>> lr
> [[1, 1], [0, 1], [0, 0]]
>>>>
>>>>
> Woops! What's wrong?
> 
> --Jach Fong

1st never* use range to step through items in a list
if you need the index as well as the item use Enumerate

    a=[[1],[2]]
    for i,x in enumerate(a):
        a[i].append(0)
    print a


* like all rules an experienced programmer may find a usage case where it 
may be broken



-- 
While money doesn't buy love, it puts you in a great bargaining position.


From __peter__ at web.de  Wed Apr 12 04:41:04 2017
From: __peter__ at web.de (Peter Otten)
Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2017 10:41:04 +0200
Subject: What is the difference between x[:]=y and x=y[:]?
References: <aa829ad5-533a-4b39-ad39-1bb08ee43116@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <ockp6r$oif$1@blaine.gmane.org>

jfong at ms4.hinet.net wrote:

Assuming both x and y are lists

x[:] = y 

replaces the items in x with the items in y while


x = y[:]

makes a copy of y and binds that to the name x. In both cases x and y remain 
different lists, but in only in the second case x is rebound. This becomes 
relevant when initially there are other names bound to x. Compare:


>>> z = x = [1, 2]
>>> y = [10, 20, 30]
>>> x[:] = y # replace the values, z affected
>>> z
[10, 20, 30]


>>> z = x = [1, 2]
>>> y = [10, 20, 30]
>>> x = y[:] # rebind. x and z are now different lists
>>> z
[1, 2]




From __peter__ at web.de  Wed Apr 12 04:51:35 2017
From: __peter__ at web.de (Peter Otten)
Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2017 10:51:35 +0200
Subject: CPython Class variable exposed to Python is altered.
References: <5824dded-cd31-90d0-6044-edc132daf071@telenet.be>
 <816bdd8e-e22a-7237-75a8-01783d468bcc@telenet.be>
Message-ID: <ockpqh$565$1@blaine.gmane.org>

Vincent Vande Vyvre wrote:

> Le 12/04/17 ? 08:57, Vincent Vande Vyvre a ?crit :
>> Hi,
>>
>> Learning CPython, I've made this simple exercice, a module test which
>> contains an object Test.
>>
>> The object Test has an attribute name, fixed at instanciation.
>>
>> So, I try my code with a script:
>>
>> -------------------------------------------
>> from test import Test
>>
>> for n in ("The name", "Foo", "Spam"):
>>     t = Test(n)
>>     print("%s --> %s" %(n, t.name))
>> -------------------------------------------
>>
>> And the return:
>>
>> Uhe name --> Uhe name
>> Goo --> Goo
>> Tpam --> Tpam
>>
>> As we can see, the first letter is changed with the next letter in
>> alphabetical order, but not only for the attribute name, also for the
>> reference n.

>      if (!PyArg_ParseTupleAndKeywords(args, kwds, "s|", kwlist, &name))
>          return -1;
> 
>      if (name) {
>          tmp = self->name;
>          Py_INCREF(name);

While I don't know how to do this properly you seem to be applying 
Py_INCREF() to a C string rather than a Python string object. C being C you 
can cast anything to anything else...

Aren't there any warnings at compile time?



From vincent.vande.vyvre at telenet.be  Wed Apr 12 05:19:51 2017
From: vincent.vande.vyvre at telenet.be (Vincent Vande Vyvre)
Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2017 11:19:51 +0200
Subject: CPython Class variable exposed to Python is altered.
In-Reply-To: <ockpqh$565$1@blaine.gmane.org>
References: <5824dded-cd31-90d0-6044-edc132daf071@telenet.be>
 <816bdd8e-e22a-7237-75a8-01783d468bcc@telenet.be>
 <ockpqh$565$1@blaine.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <c825634c-591a-9e0a-3701-d230452045d5@telenet.be>

Le 12/04/17 ? 10:51, Peter Otten a ?crit :
> Vincent Vande Vyvre wrote:
>
>> Le 12/04/17 ? 08:57, Vincent Vande Vyvre a ?crit :
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> Learning CPython, I've made this simple exercice, a module test which
>>> contains an object Test.
>>>
>>> The object Test has an attribute name, fixed at instanciation.
>>>
>>> So, I try my code with a script:
>>>
>>> -------------------------------------------
>>> from test import Test
>>>
>>> for n in ("The name", "Foo", "Spam"):
>>>      t = Test(n)
>>>      print("%s --> %s" %(n, t.name))
>>> -------------------------------------------
>>>
>>> And the return:
>>>
>>> Uhe name --> Uhe name
>>> Goo --> Goo
>>> Tpam --> Tpam
>>>
>>> As we can see, the first letter is changed with the next letter in
>>> alphabetical order, but not only for the attribute name, also for the
>>> reference n.
>>       if (!PyArg_ParseTupleAndKeywords(args, kwds, "s|", kwlist, &name))
>>           return -1;
>>
>>       if (name) {
>>           tmp = self->name;
>>           Py_INCREF(name);
> While I don't know how to do this properly you seem to be applying
> Py_INCREF() to a C string rather than a Python string object. C being C you
> can cast anything to anything else...
>
> Aren't there any warnings at compile time?
>

No, no warning.


For the truth, this code is copy-pasted from the doc.

https://docs.python.org/3.5//extending/newtypes.html#adding-data-and-methods-to-the-basic-example


Vincent



From alister.ware at ntlworld.com  Wed Apr 12 05:30:05 2017
From: alister.ware at ntlworld.com (alister)
Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2017 09:30:05 GMT
Subject: Python and the need for speed
References: <768f9a44-5d90-4756-8a99-821253a491f8@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.5.1491710256.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <58e9e519$0$1528$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <mailman.9.1491728745.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <58ec9192$0$1602$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <oci97l$10u4$1@gioia.aioe.org>
 <58eceea2$0$1615$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <423b78ac-3e72-45d3-a7d9-88feeb47a291@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <xsmHA.355775$y83.112114@fx30.am4>

On Tue, 11 Apr 2017 16:31:16 -0700, Rick Johnson wrote:

> On Tuesday, April 11, 2017 at 9:56:45 AM UTC-5, Steve D'Aprano wrote:
>> On Tue, 11 Apr 2017 07:56 pm, Brecht Machiels wrote:
>> > On 2017-04-11 08:19:31 +0000, Steven D'Aprano said:
>> >
>> > I understand that high performance was never a goal in CPython
>> > development (and Python language design!), but recent events
>> > (DropBox, Google) might help to reconsider that standpoint.
>>
>> *shrug*  It isn't as if high-performance is a requirement for all code.
> 
> But given the choice, no prospective "language shopper" is going to
> choose the slower language over a faster language -- at least not from a
> pool of similar languages with similar features (no comparing Python to
> C, please!). So even if you don't need the speed _today_, you may need
> it _tomorrow_. And once you've written a few hundred thousand lines of
> code, well, you're committed to the language you chose yesterday.

but cost is also a factor , not just cost of the tools but cost in time 
writing & debugging he software the write.

if they can produce a finished product in half the time with a "slower" 
language the speed may not be important (especially when the application 
is IO bound & spends 90% of its time idling anyway).

if this were not the case then we would all be writing Assembler

> 
>> And it isn't as if Python is in any serious risk of losing popularity. 
>> No language can expect to be popular forever. Eventually Python will be
>> as obsolete as or niche as COBOL,
>> Tcl or ABC. But that day is not now.
> 
> But considering (as you pointed out) that Python is 20 years old now,
> and has also recently suffered a major community fracturing with the
> release of Py3000, that day is getting ever closer. I don't see how
> Python can survive when a small core of language devs consistently
> ignore the wider community.
> 
> 
>> > Here's a wild idea: consider Python 3 feature-complete.
>>
>> I think that will conflict with the many, many people who want Python
>> to have more features, and care more about them than speed.
> 
> Python-ideas and Python-dev do not represent the majority of the Python
> community. They are out there, right now, writing code and solving
> problems. But when Python fails to aid in this endeavor, they will not
> come here to complain, no, they will search for a new language. In other
> words: they will vote with their feet.





-- 
I realize that command does have its fascination, even under
circumstances such as these, but I neither enjoy the idea of command
nor am I frightened of it.  It simply exists, and I will do whatever
logically needs to be done.
		-- Spock, "The Galileo Seven", stardate 2812.7


From brecht__gmane at mos6581.org  Wed Apr 12 05:33:49 2017
From: brecht__gmane at mos6581.org (Brecht Machiels)
Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2017 11:33:49 +0200
Subject: Python and the need for speed
References: <768f9a44-5d90-4756-8a99-821253a491f8@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.5.1491710256.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <58e9e519$0$1528$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <mailman.9.1491728745.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <58ec9192$0$1602$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <oci97l$10u4$1@gioia.aioe.org>
 <58eceea2$0$1615$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
Message-ID: <ocks9s$10uq$1@gioia.aioe.org>

On 2017-04-11 14:56:33 +0000, Steve D'Aprano said:

> On Tue, 11 Apr 2017 07:56 pm, Brecht Machiels wrote:
>> 
>> Hey! This random, ignorant blogger has feelings too! :-)
> 
> Hi, and welcome!
> 
> Sorry, I wasn't *specifically* referring to you, except in the sense that
> you aren't a compiler expert.

That's ok. No offense taken.

> But I also think that while making Python faster is a good goal to have, it
> seems that for most people, and most companies, it isn't their priority.

That may very well be correct. I have used Python/NumPy extensively for 
data processing/analysis, and I haven't been disappointed by its 
performance in that area (so far, at least).

However, rinohtype is located in a very different niche and it would 
greatly benefit a lot from a speed boost. Rendering the Sphinx 
documentation (311 pages) takes almost 10 minutes on my i7, which is 
simply too long given the available processing power. And yes, I have 
spent a lot time profiling and optimizing the code. You're always 
welcome to demonstrate my incompetence by means of a pull request, of 
course ;-)

I have toyed with the idea of porting rinohtype to JavaScript, for the 
increased performance (though that is not certain) and the advantage of 
being able to run in the browser. While it may not be an extreme amount 
of work to port rinohtype itself using something like RapydScript, the 
docutils and Sphinx dependencies are not easily replaced.

As for moving to a compiled language (Nim or Rust would be interesting 
choices, IMO), it doesn't make much sense. rinohtype should be easily 
extendable with new document templates for example. An interpreted 
language like Python is ideal for that (not to mention it's lovely 
syntax).

>>> The Python ecosystem is actually quite healthy, if you need to speed up
>>> code there are lots of solutions, and some of them are even good
>>> solutions.
>> 
>> There seem to be no solutions for my use case (rinohtype).
> 
> Have you tried Nuitka?

I have, a long time ago, so it's a bit vague. But if it performed 
marginally better than CPython, I would have remembered. Definitely not 
enough to warrant having to distribute binaries.

>>> Nevertheless, it is interesting to discuss whether or not any
>>> of these features will go mainstream or make it into CPython.
>> 
>> Indeed! I initially wanted to include the following in the article, but
>> decided it would be too controversial. But now that I've been exposed
>> as an ignorant and naive blogger, I might as well share these thoughts.
>> 
>> I have the feeling that a faster Python will never materialise unless
>> the CPython core developers make performance a high priority.
> 
> I think you are both right and wrong.
> 
> You are right in the sense that none of the companies exploring Python
> optimizers have wanted to carry the maintenance burden themselves. Their
> aim is to prove the concept, then push it back into CPython and have the
> core devs maintain it.
> 
> But you're also wrong, in the sense that you're focused on *revolutionary*
> speed-ups rather than *evolutionary* optimizations. CPython is faster today
> than it was in version 1.5, despite doing MUCH more. Python continues to
> shave slow code off and improve performance. No, this isn't likely to make
> Python ten times faster, but its performance does incrementally increase.

I do appreciate the evolutionary speedups of CPython. However, I love 
Python and it's just a bit frustrating that it's not all that it could 
be. Python *could* be faster, it's just not moving in that direction.

But, it may indeed be I'm just one of the few that think that Python is 
not fast enough. If that is the case, it of course makes no sense to 
focus more on performance. However, we don't really know how Python's 
performance is affecting its popularity. It would be good to have some 
kind of information about user's motivations for choosing Python or 
moving away from it. Have any polls been organized in the past to try 
to find out?

I realize that work on CPython (and thus the language itself) is done 
by unpaid volunteers. But I assume that they also want the language to 
thrive, and therefore want to cater to the wishes of the userbase at 
some level.

So perhaps the conclusion to this discussion is that we should first 
try to find out whether performance is an issue for a large part of the 
community (or possible newcomers).

Best regards,
Brecht



From __peter__ at web.de  Wed Apr 12 05:47:40 2017
From: __peter__ at web.de (Peter Otten)
Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2017 11:47:40 +0200
Subject: CPython Class variable exposed to Python is altered.
References: <5824dded-cd31-90d0-6044-edc132daf071@telenet.be>
 <816bdd8e-e22a-7237-75a8-01783d468bcc@telenet.be>
 <ockpqh$565$1@blaine.gmane.org>
 <c825634c-591a-9e0a-3701-d230452045d5@telenet.be>
Message-ID: <ockt3n$25s$1@blaine.gmane.org>

Vincent Vande Vyvre wrote:

> Le 12/04/17 ? 10:51, Peter Otten a ?crit :
>> Vincent Vande Vyvre wrote:
>>
>>> Le 12/04/17 ? 08:57, Vincent Vande Vyvre a ?crit :
>>>> Hi,
>>>>
>>>> Learning CPython, I've made this simple exercice, a module test which
>>>> contains an object Test.
>>>>
>>>> The object Test has an attribute name, fixed at instanciation.
>>>>
>>>> So, I try my code with a script:
>>>>
>>>> -------------------------------------------
>>>> from test import Test
>>>>
>>>> for n in ("The name", "Foo", "Spam"):
>>>>      t = Test(n)
>>>>      print("%s --> %s" %(n, t.name))
>>>> -------------------------------------------
>>>>
>>>> And the return:
>>>>
>>>> Uhe name --> Uhe name
>>>> Goo --> Goo
>>>> Tpam --> Tpam
>>>>
>>>> As we can see, the first letter is changed with the next letter in
>>>> alphabetical order, but not only for the attribute name, also for the
>>>> reference n.
>>>       if (!PyArg_ParseTupleAndKeywords(args, kwds, "s|", kwlist, &name))
>>>           return -1;
>>>
>>>       if (name) {
>>>           tmp = self->name;
>>>           Py_INCREF(name);
>> While I don't know how to do this properly you seem to be applying
>> Py_INCREF() to a C string rather than a Python string object. C being C
>> you can cast anything to anything else...
>>
>> Aren't there any warnings at compile time?
>>
> 
> No, no warning.
> 
> 
> For the truth, this code is copy-pasted from the doc.
> 
> https://docs.python.org/3.5//extending/newtypes.html#adding-data-and-methods-to-the-basic-example

But the example expects objects (the big O), not strings. Following the 
example you need

     if (!PyArg_ParseTupleAndKeywords(args, kwds, "O|", kwlist, &name))
         return -1;

and also

static PyMemberDef Test_members[] = {
     {"name", T_OBJECT_EX, offsetof(Test, name), 0,
      "The object name"},
     {NULL}  /* Sentinel */
};

If you want a string instead of an object you must not apply Py_INCREF(), 
you probably have to manage its lifetime yourself.



From bart4858 at gmail.com  Wed Apr 12 05:56:58 2017
From: bart4858 at gmail.com (bart4858 at gmail.com)
Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2017 02:56:58 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Python and the need for speed
In-Reply-To: <58edcdd2$0$1501$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
References: <768f9a44-5d90-4756-8a99-821253a491f8@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.5.1491710256.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <58e9e519$0$1528$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <mailman.9.1491728745.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <58ec9192$0$1602$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <oci97l$10u4$1@gioia.aioe.org>
 <58eceea2$0$1615$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <CAE6NSRD=xU_mNECNBU2w92Br=vgHJJVqSruGFrPB=vrbpkj0Nw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPjBxg_49OD_CNXUAHKjxYsUiLab4s_fCs_Ast3LyymB82zTCA@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.68.1491956914.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <4277c149-e136-4d33-91d5-d011df9149f1@googlegroups.com>
 <58edcdd2$0$1501$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
Message-ID: <fdb4a93a-688e-4a3f-bbc3-0df3ee1d2ac7@googlegroups.com>

On Wednesday, 12 April 2017 07:48:57 UTC+1, Steven D'Aprano  wrote:
> On Tue, 11 Apr 2017 21:10:56 -0700, Rick Johnson wrote:
> 
> > high level languages like Python should make it difficult, if not
> > impossible, to write sub-
> > optimal code (at least in the blatantly obvious cases).
> 

> Here's another example:
> 
>     answer = 0
>     for i in range(10):
>         answer += 1
> 
> instead of 
> 
>     answer = 10
> 
> So... how exactly does the compiler prohibit stupid code?

Actually, an optimising C compiler (not one of mine!) probably could reduce that to answer=10. And eliminate even that if 'answer' was never used.

But that's not really the issue here. Assume that such a loop /is/ doing something more useful. The problems with Python (last time I looked anyway) were these:

(1) If answer was a global variable, then it needs a symbol table lookup to find out what it is. That would not happen in a static language, or a less dynamic one, as you already have the address.

And this lookup happens for every loop iteration.

(2) There is also 'range', which could have been redefined to mean something else, so /that/ needs a lookup. The byte-code compiler can't just assume this loop is to be executed 10 times.

(3) This was fixed long ago but at one time, even when 'range' had been established to be a range, it involved constructing a list of items (10 here, but it could be a million), and then iterating over the list.

This might seem crazy, but it might have been exceptable for a script language at one time. Not for a general purpose one however.

(4) Python's integer types being immutable, the += operation means evaluating the result, then creating a new integer object and binding 'a' to that new value. (Correct me if I'm wrong.)

These are all things the language could point a finger at before blaming the user for writing inefficient code.

The problem is also the language encouraging people to use high-level but inefficient methods, as the emphasis is on productivity and readability** rather than performance. In fact most users probably have no idea on what is efficient and what isn't.

If I wanted to work with the code for character 'A' (ie. the integer 65), in another language it might represent it as 'A' which is mapped to 65. In Python, 'A' is a string. To get the integer code, I have to use ord('A'). To do that, it has to look up 'ord', than execute a function call... In the meantime the more static language has long since finished whatever it was going to do with that code.

(** Although I find code full of class definitions, one-liners, decorators and all the other esoterics, incomprehensive. I'm sure I'm not the only one, so perhaps readability isn't too much of a priority either.)

-- 
bartc


From marko at pacujo.net  Wed Apr 12 06:05:21 2017
From: marko at pacujo.net (Marko Rauhamaa)
Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2017 13:05:21 +0300
Subject: Python and the need for speed
References: <768f9a44-5d90-4756-8a99-821253a491f8@googlegroups.com>
 <CAPTjJmrMWpzGd9Lf_sa-mscvqezY01U5kDCPRh07Nuivvxo8yg@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.5.1491710256.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <58e9e519$0$1528$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <CAPTjJmq4bCoXWryo5Jahh4he1_GP5LGjyKtJ1Mxs_XkNggi-6w@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.9.1491728745.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <58ec9192$0$1602$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <87a87mn8rc.fsf@nightsong.com>
 <58ed8c02$0$1620$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <069ed317-abab-4980-a06c-6eafdc029653@googlegroups.com>
 <CAPTjJmrHEkTNu8X+ztUgRpLtTrY2tf0RMFF2wtvy2+Ko3bfkmA@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.73.1491965716.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <87r30yjlfd.fsf@nightsong.com>
Message-ID: <878tn6djq6.fsf@elektro.pacujo.net>

Paul Rubin <no.email at nospam.invalid>:
> I'd be interested to know how to open a disk file asynchronously in a
> single-threaded Python program under Linux. As far as I can tell there
> is no way to do it.

Traditionally, disk access in Linux has been considered nonblocking.
There is AIO, but that hasn't been used much. I have seen quite a bit of
activity on the Linux FS mailing list recently on AIO so maybe that will
change in the future.

I believe the lack of asynchronous disk I/O is related to the grand
Solaris idea which Linux adopted: all memory is on a disk and RAM is
merely a cache. You can turn disk access into memory access with mmap()
and you can turn memory access into disk access with /proc/mem.

If you access a file and the relevant bytes are already cached in RAM
you get them instantaneously; otherwise you'll have to wait for a "page
fault" to be processed. If you need to execute a CPU instruction and the
relevant address is already cached in RAM, the CPU can proceed without
delay; otherwise the CPU will have to wait for a page fault to be
processed.

As swapping is no longer considered normal on modern computers, the
memory-disk duality doesn't seem all that practical anymore. Rather,
you'd like to treat the disk analogously to network access and keep RAM
access separate.


Marko


From vincent.vande.vyvre at telenet.be  Wed Apr 12 06:05:25 2017
From: vincent.vande.vyvre at telenet.be (Vincent Vande Vyvre)
Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2017 12:05:25 +0200
Subject: CPython Class variable exposed to Python is altered.
In-Reply-To: <ockt3n$25s$1@blaine.gmane.org>
References: <5824dded-cd31-90d0-6044-edc132daf071@telenet.be>
 <816bdd8e-e22a-7237-75a8-01783d468bcc@telenet.be>
 <ockpqh$565$1@blaine.gmane.org>
 <c825634c-591a-9e0a-3701-d230452045d5@telenet.be>
 <ockt3n$25s$1@blaine.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <2b79c163-815d-2357-a6c8-420aac25a977@telenet.be>

Le 12/04/17 ? 11:47, Peter Otten a ?crit :
> Vincent Vande Vyvre wrote:
>
>
>> No, no warning.
>>
>>
>> For the truth, this code is copy-pasted from the doc.
>>
>> https://docs.python.org/3.5//extending/newtypes.html#adding-data-and-methods-to-the-basic-example
> But the example expects objects (the big O), not strings. Following the
> example you need
>
>       if (!PyArg_ParseTupleAndKeywords(args, kwds, "O|", kwlist, &name))
>           return -1;
>
> and also
>
> static PyMemberDef Test_members[] = {
>       {"name", T_OBJECT_EX, offsetof(Test, name), 0,
>        "The object name"},
>       {NULL}  /* Sentinel */
> };
>
> If you want a string instead of an object you must not apply Py_INCREF(),
> you probably have to manage its lifetime yourself.
>

I've just installed a new venv with the 3.6.1 and tested your changes.

And now, that's all right.

I see the devil is into the details ...


Many thanks Peter


Vincent



From marko at pacujo.net  Wed Apr 12 06:11:00 2017
From: marko at pacujo.net (Marko Rauhamaa)
Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2017 13:11:00 +0300
Subject: Python and the need for speed
References: <768f9a44-5d90-4756-8a99-821253a491f8@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.5.1491710256.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <58e9e519$0$1528$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <mailman.9.1491728745.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <58ec9192$0$1602$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <oci97l$10u4$1@gioia.aioe.org>
 <58eceea2$0$1615$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <CAE6NSRD=xU_mNECNBU2w92Br=vgHJJVqSruGFrPB=vrbpkj0Nw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPjBxg_49OD_CNXUAHKjxYsUiLab4s_fCs_Ast3LyymB82zTCA@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.68.1491956914.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <4277c149-e136-4d33-91d5-d011df9149f1@googlegroups.com>
 <58edcdd2$0$1501$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <fdb4a93a-688e-4a3f-bbc3-0df3ee1d2ac7@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <87zifmc4wb.fsf@elektro.pacujo.net>

bart4858 at gmail.com:

> On Wednesday, 12 April 2017 07:48:57 UTC+1, Steven D'Aprano  wrote:
>> Here's another example:
>> 
>>     answer = 0
>>     for i in range(10):
>>         answer += 1
>> 
>> instead of 
>> 
>>     answer = 10
>> 
>> So... how exactly does the compiler prohibit stupid code?
>
> Actually, an optimising C compiler (not one of mine!) probably could
> reduce that to answer=10.

One of the reasons C compilers need to address "stupid" code like that
is that it may arise from macros or from generated code. Maybe the
statement "answer += 1" is "answer = answer * 1.01 + 0.0001" in some
other (compile-time) circumstances.

A similar situation can hit Python as well through a (virtual) method
call, a dynamic function call or a conditional import, for example.


Marko


From jfong at ms4.hinet.net  Wed Apr 12 06:51:42 2017
From: jfong at ms4.hinet.net (jfong at ms4.hinet.net)
Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2017 03:51:42 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: What is the difference between x[:]=y and x=y[:]?
In-Reply-To: <mailman.79.1491986473.2951.python-list@python.org>
References: <aa829ad5-533a-4b39-ad39-1bb08ee43116@googlegroups.com>
 <ockp6r$oif$1@blaine.gmane.org>
 <mailman.79.1491986473.2951.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <045c9994-c4c4-41ee-9f63-9e834e80d574@googlegroups.com>

Peter Otten at 2017/4/12 UTC+8 PM 4:41:36 wrote:
> jfong at ms4.hinet.net wrote:
> 
> Assuming both x and y are lists
> 
> x[:] = y 
> 
> replaces the items in x with the items in y while
> 
> 
> x = y[:]
> 
> makes a copy of y and binds that to the name x. In both cases x and y remain 
> different lists, but in only in the second case x is rebound. This becomes 
> relevant when initially there are other names bound to x. Compare:
> 
> 
> >>> z = x = [1, 2]
> >>> y = [10, 20, 30]
> >>> x[:] = y # replace the values, z affected
> >>> z
> [10, 20, 30]
> 
> 
> >>> z = x = [1, 2]
> >>> y = [10, 20, 30]
> >>> x = y[:] # rebind. x and z are now different lists
> >>> z
> [1, 2]

Thank you Peter, I think I know the problem now. The append(lx) method actually append a link to the name lx, not append a copy of lx. When use lx[:]=lr[i]. the lx's content changes and it also reflected to the lr. When use lx=lr[i][:], a new lx was created and it will not affect the old one linked in the lr. 

Anyway it seems as better to use append(lx[:]) for this sake:-)

--Jach


From fabiofz at gmail.com  Wed Apr 12 07:14:55 2017
From: fabiofz at gmail.com (Fabio Zadrozny)
Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2017 08:14:55 -0300
Subject: PyDev 5.7.0 Released
Message-ID: <CANXBEFoa23O9NGo86U-QfmT0C+eK0ZbeVHnN-UzijZ0JOp1-sQ@mail.gmail.com>

PyDev 5.7.0 Release Highlights
-------------------------------

* **Important** PyDev now requires Java 8 and Eclipse 4.6 (Neon) onwards.

    * PyDev 5.2.0 is the last release supporting Eclipse 4.5 (Mars).

* **PyLint**

* The PyLint integration is much improved.
* Working along with the PyDev code-analysis.
* If there's an equivalent code analysis error in PyLint and PyDev, the
PyLint one is hidden.
* **Ctrl+1** on PyLint error line shows option to silent error in that line.
* See: http://pydev.org/manual_adv_pylint.html for details.

* **Debugger**

* Fixed issue when sorting which could lead to error comparing a value with
None.
* Fixed issue which prevented debugger from working with Jython due to the
lack of sys._current_frames.
* Testing Jython on CI.

* **Code Completion**

* Properly unpacking assigns from a parameter to an instance with type
documented in docstring. **#PyDev-778**

* **Others**

* When assigning parameters to attributes (**Ctrl+1** on function **def**),
skip adding duplicate assignments.
* When adding parameters to docstrings  (**Ctrl+1** on function **def**),
it will now properly update an existing docstring, not only create one from
scratch.
* In Windows, when searching executables, priority is given to a python
executable found in the PATH (as in Mac/Linux).
* Fixed issue were space was wrongly removed in code formatter.
**#PyDev-784**


What is PyDev?
---------------------------

PyDev is an open-source Python IDE on top of Eclipse for Python, Jython and
IronPython development.

It comes with goodies such as code completion, syntax highlighting, syntax
analysis, code analysis, refactor, debug, interactive console, etc.

Details on PyDev: http://pydev.org
Details on its development: http://pydev.blogspot.com


What is LiClipse?
---------------------------

LiClipse is a PyDev standalone with goodies such as support for Multiple
cursors, theming, TextMate bundles and a number of other languages such as
Django Templates, Jinja2, Kivy Language, Mako Templates, Html, Javascript,
etc.

It's also a commercial counterpart which helps supporting the development
of PyDev.

Details on LiClipse: http://www.liclipse.com/



Cheers,

--
Fabio Zadrozny
------------------------------------------------------
Software Developer

LiClipse
http://www.liclipse.com

PyDev - Python Development Environment for Eclipse
http://pydev.org
http://pydev.blogspot.com

PyVmMonitor - Python Profiler
http://www.pyvmmonitor.com/


From mafshari44 at gmail.com  Wed Apr 12 07:18:45 2017
From: mafshari44 at gmail.com (Masoud Afshari)
Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2017 04:18:45 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: closing image automatically  in for loop , python
Message-ID: <8e5d24d1-1453-4526-88d5-790702c00f1c@googlegroups.com>

Dear all

 I have several *.sfd files which created by a simulation code. I wrote a program containing a for Loop which reads  each time one .sfd file  and plot the requested Parameters. I have two request:

 1- my Problem is that for Showing successive Images in for Loop I have to Close the Image MANAULLY each time to read next sdf file. can anyone please tell me which command do I have to use so the code Close the Images automatically.

 2- more over, can anyone please tell me how can I create a movie with this code.

 in the following you can see my code


 #####################
 # in this program, PYTHON reads the reduced files and plot the variables .
?
 ?
import sys 
 import sdf
 import numpy as np
 import matplotlib.pyplot as plt 
 from matplotlib.font_manager import FontProperties
 fp = FontProperties('Symbola')
?
##################### information from EPOCH input.deck
 nx,ny= 1200, 1600
?
xmin=-100e-6
 xmax = 50e-6
 ymin = -100e-6
 ymax = 100e-6
?
X =np.linspace(xmin,xmax,nx) #Generate linearly spaced vector. The spacing between the points is (x2-x1)/(n-1).
 Y =np.linspace(ymin,ymax,ny)
?
#################
for n in range(0,27):
 nstr = str(n)#.zfill(4)
 #print nstr
?
######
fig = plt.figure() #plot several figures simultaneously 

 ########..... reading Ex
?
filename ="Ex_resample" +'_sdf_'+ str(n)+'.dat'
 with open(filename, 'rb') as f: #read binary file
 data = np.fromfile(f, dtype='float64', count=nx*ny) #float64 for Double precision float numbers
 Ex = np.reshape(data, [ny, nx], order='F')
 #print Ex.max()
?
#Display image with scaled colors:
 plt.subplot(222)
 fig1=plt.imshow(Ex, extent=[X.min()*1e6, X.max()*1e6, Y.min()*1e6, Y.max()*1e6], vmin=0, vmax=2e12, cmap='brg', aspect='auto') #cmap='jet', 'nipy_spectral','hot','gist_ncar'
 #plt.suptitle('Ex')
 plt.title('sdf '+ str(n)+ '; Time= ' +str(n*50)+ 'ps',color='green', fontsize=15)
 plt.xlabel('x($\mu$m)')
 plt.ylabel('y($\mu$m)')
 plt.text(40,80,'Ex',color='red', fontsize=15)
 plt.colorbar()
 plt.show()
 #fig.savefig('test.jpg')
 sys.exit()


From bart4858 at gmail.com  Wed Apr 12 07:48:05 2017
From: bart4858 at gmail.com (bart4858 at gmail.com)
Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2017 04:48:05 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Python and the need for speed
In-Reply-To: <fdb4a93a-688e-4a3f-bbc3-0df3ee1d2ac7@googlegroups.com>
References: <768f9a44-5d90-4756-8a99-821253a491f8@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.5.1491710256.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <58e9e519$0$1528$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <mailman.9.1491728745.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <58ec9192$0$1602$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <oci97l$10u4$1@gioia.aioe.org>
 <58eceea2$0$1615$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <CAE6NSRD=xU_mNECNBU2w92Br=vgHJJVqSruGFrPB=vrbpkj0Nw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPjBxg_49OD_CNXUAHKjxYsUiLab4s_fCs_Ast3LyymB82zTCA@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.68.1491956914.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <4277c149-e136-4d33-91d5-d011df9149f1@googlegroups.com>
 <58edcdd2$0$1501$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <fdb4a93a-688e-4a3f-bbc3-0df3ee1d2ac7@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <54f1685d-1d2d-44b5-869e-a510569ba9d1@googlegroups.com>

On Wednesday, 12 April 2017 10:57:10 UTC+1, bart... at gmail.com  wrote:
> On Wednesday, 12 April 2017 07:48:57 UTC+1, Steven D'Aprano  wrote:

> >     for i in range(10):
> >         answer += 1

> > So... how exactly does the compiler prohibit stupid code?

> And this lookup happens for every loop iteration.

I've just looked at byte-code for that loop (using an on-line Python as I don't have it on this machine). I counted 7 byte-codes that need to be executed per iteration, plus five to set up the loop, one of which needs to call a function.

My language does the same loop with only 4 byte-codes. Loop setup needs 2 (to store '10' into the loop counter).

It also has the option of using a loop with no control variable (as it's not used here). Still four byte-codes, but the looping byte-code is a bit faster.

Plus there is the option of using ++answer instead of answer += 1. Now there are only two byte-codes! (NB don't try ++ in Python.)

These are straightforward language enhancements.

-- 
bartc


From jeanmichel at sequans.com  Wed Apr 12 07:55:45 2017
From: jeanmichel at sequans.com (jmp)
Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2017 13:55:45 +0200
Subject: Swiss Ephemeris
In-Reply-To: <000001d2b1bb$7f8e7950$27b23dae@sambora>
References: <1710f867-da07-4c52-9ff5-7b349dd8e485@googlegroups.com>
 <000001d2b1bb$7f8e7950$27b23dae@sambora>
Message-ID: <ocl4jr$scg$1@blaine.gmane.org>

On 04/10/2017 07:29 AM, Deborah Swanson wrote:
> Fully recognizing that most of what you wrote was tongue-in-cheek, I
> just want to say that regardless of the wonders of modern medicine, it's
> a pity they learn so little about successful medicines other than their
> own. In other academic scientific disciplines such as physics and
> chemistry it's not uncommon to see history of science courses in the
> curriculum. But not in medicine. I learned what I know about ancient
> Greek science from a university physics professor, though I doubt he
> would ever have guessed that one of his students would someday breathe
> new life into that ancient science by attempting to ressurrect it. The
> great ancients were no less endowed with intelligence than we are, they
> simply directed it to different ends.

1/ success of medicine astrology is yet to be demonstrated
2/ history of science is about history, not actual science
3/ Ancients were probably as intelligent as we are, they just lacked a 
proper education and were filled with many false information

I can understand why people would study ancient medicines, I don't when 
they decide to consider it actual applicable science. It could be 
harmful in some cases.

But since it's done in Python, I guess we can let it slide :o)

jm




From jussi.piitulainen at helsinki.fi  Wed Apr 12 07:56:22 2017
From: jussi.piitulainen at helsinki.fi (Jussi Piitulainen)
Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2017 14:56:22 +0300
Subject: Python and the need for speed
References: <768f9a44-5d90-4756-8a99-821253a491f8@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.5.1491710256.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <58e9e519$0$1528$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <mailman.9.1491728745.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <58ec9192$0$1602$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <oci97l$10u4$1@gioia.aioe.org>
 <58eceea2$0$1615$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <CAE6NSRD=xU_mNECNBU2w92Br=vgHJJVqSruGFrPB=vrbpkj0Nw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPjBxg_49OD_CNXUAHKjxYsUiLab4s_fCs_Ast3LyymB82zTCA@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.68.1491956914.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <4277c149-e136-4d33-91d5-d011df9149f1@googlegroups.com>
 <58edcdd2$0$1501$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <fdb4a93a-688e-4a3f-bbc3-0df3ee1d2ac7@googlegroups.com>
 <54f1685d-1d2d-44b5-869e-a510569ba9d1@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <lf5a87ln8k9.fsf@ling.helsinki.fi>

bart4858 at gmail.com writes:

> On Wednesday, 12 April 2017 10:57:10 UTC+1, bart... at gmail.com  wrote:
>> On Wednesday, 12 April 2017 07:48:57 UTC+1, Steven D'Aprano  wrote:
>
>> >     for i in range(10):
>> >         answer += 1
>
>> > So... how exactly does the compiler prohibit stupid code?
>
>> And this lookup happens for every loop iteration.
>
> I've just looked at byte-code for that loop (using an on-line Python
> as I don't have it on this machine). I counted 7 byte-codes that need
> to be executed per iteration, plus five to set up the loop, one of
> which needs to call a function.
>
> My language does the same loop with only 4 byte-codes. Loop setup
> needs 2 (to store '10' into the loop counter).
>
> It also has the option of using a loop with no control variable (as
> it's not used here). Still four byte-codes, but the looping byte-code
> is a bit faster.
>
> Plus there is the option of using ++answer instead of answer += 1. Now
> there are only two byte-codes! (NB don't try ++ in Python.)
>
> These are straightforward language enhancements.

FYI, the question is not how to optimize the code but how to prevent the
programmer from writing stupid code in the first place. Someone
suggested that a language should do that.

But you appear to be talking about the original topic of the thread, as
seen on the subject line, so ok :)


From __peter__ at web.de  Wed Apr 12 08:13:09 2017
From: __peter__ at web.de (Peter Otten)
Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2017 14:13:09 +0200
Subject: What is the difference between x[:]=y and x=y[:]?
References: <aa829ad5-533a-4b39-ad39-1bb08ee43116@googlegroups.com>
 <ockp6r$oif$1@blaine.gmane.org>
 <mailman.79.1491986473.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <045c9994-c4c4-41ee-9f63-9e834e80d574@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <ocl5kg$ce$1@blaine.gmane.org>

jfong at ms4.hinet.net wrote:

> Peter Otten at 2017/4/12 UTC+8 PM 4:41:36 wrote:
>> jfong at ms4.hinet.net wrote:
>> 
>> Assuming both x and y are lists
>> 
>> x[:] = y
>> 
>> replaces the items in x with the items in y while
>> 
>> 
>> x = y[:]
>> 
>> makes a copy of y and binds that to the name x. In both cases x and y
>> remain different lists, but in only in the second case x is rebound. This
>> becomes relevant when initially there are other names bound to x.
>> Compare:
>> 
>> 
>> >>> z = x = [1, 2]
>> >>> y = [10, 20, 30]
>> >>> x[:] = y # replace the values, z affected
>> >>> z
>> [10, 20, 30]
>> 
>> 
>> >>> z = x = [1, 2]
>> >>> y = [10, 20, 30]
>> >>> x = y[:] # rebind. x and z are now different lists
>> >>> z
>> [1, 2]
> 
> Thank you Peter, I think I know the problem now. The append(lx) method
> actually append a link to the name lx, not append a copy of lx. When use
> lx[:]=lr[i]. the lx's content changes and it also reflected to the lr.
> When use lx=lr[i][:], a new lx was created and it will not affect the old
> one linked in the lr.
> 
> Anyway it seems as better to use append(lx[:]) for this sake:-)

I should add that you can write

>>>> lr = [[1], [0]]
>>>> lx = []
>>>> for i in range(len(lr)):
> ...     lx = lr[i][:]
> ...     lx.append(0)
> ...     lr[i].append(1)
> ...     lr.append(lx)
> ...
>>>> lr
>[[1, 1], [0, 1], [1, 0], [0, 0]]
> 

idiomatially as

>>> lr = [[1], [0]]
>>> [inner + tail for tail in [[1], [0]] for inner in lr]
[[1, 1], [0, 1], [1, 0], [0, 0]]

Note that there is a difference -- the resulting list does not share any 
lists with the original `lr` as concatenating two lists produces a new one:

>>> a = [1]
>>> b = [2]
>>> c = a + b
>>> a is c
False
>>> b is c
False




From tlnarayana at gmail.com  Wed Apr 12 08:21:30 2017
From: tlnarayana at gmail.com (LnT)
Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2017 05:21:30 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: IOError: [Errno 12] Not enough space
In-Reply-To: <b061d484-bee7-4076-97f0-53084e6dfd97@googlegroups.com>
References: <8199cb7a-fded-42b1-8a76-c9a2de4d7c78@googlegroups.com>
 <CACL+1as6zD6QC4AJ=sH1jY4S+80yeZbn4sBF_7zx6e-T1WNEBg@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.72.1491965280.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <b061d484-bee7-4076-97f0-53084e6dfd97@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <a207bffd-a9c0-4c16-935b-4ab3a99548f9@googlegroups.com>

On Wednesday, April 12, 2017 at 11:13:22 AM UTC+5:30, LnT wrote:
> Hello eryk sun,
> Thanks so much for your input.
> 
> could you please advice.
> 1) Any workaround for this issue ?
> 2) is it good to report issue in Windows OS help desk ?
> 
> Regards,
> LnT
> 
> 
> 
> On Wednesday, April 12, 2017 at 8:18:11 AM UTC+5:30, eryk sun wrote:
> > On Tue, Apr 11, 2017 at 12:30 PM, LnT <tlnarayana at gmail.com> wrote:
> > > Opening browser 'firefox' to base url 'https://onbdev.nbpa.com/zae'
> > > [ WARN ] Keyword 'Capture Page Screenshot' could not be run on failure:
> > > No browser is open
> > > | FAIL |
> > > IOError: [Errno 12] Not enough space
> > > --------------------------------------------------------------------
> > >
> > > I have cleared %TEMP% and reran the script.
> > 
> > Errno 12 is ENOMEM. It's a memory error and has nothing to do with
> > disk space. The fact that you're getting this error while doing I/O
> > seems odd if you're really using Windows 10. In Windows 7 this error
> > is not uncommon with console I/O, since a small 64K heap of shared
> > memory is used for IPC between the client and the console host
> > (conhost.exe). Buffers for reading from and writing to the console can
> > be no larger than the largest contiguous block in this shared heap.
> > Otherwise the request fails with ERROR_NOT_ENOUGH_MEMORY, which the
> > CRT translates to the errno value ENOMEM. Windows 8+ uses a kernel
> > device (ConDrv) for IPC between the client and console host, so it
> > doesn't have this limitation.

Hi ,
you may please close this thread.
Resolved the issue.

Root cause - Post restart the Windows VM , Firefox browser was blocked @ Firewall.

Regards,
LnT


From ben.usenet at bsb.me.uk  Wed Apr 12 09:38:52 2017
From: ben.usenet at bsb.me.uk (Ben Bacarisse)
Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2017 14:38:52 +0100
Subject: Python and the need for speed
References: <768f9a44-5d90-4756-8a99-821253a491f8@googlegroups.com>
 <CAPTjJmrMWpzGd9Lf_sa-mscvqezY01U5kDCPRh07Nuivvxo8yg@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.5.1491710256.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <58e9e519$0$1528$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <CAPTjJmq4bCoXWryo5Jahh4he1_GP5LGjyKtJ1Mxs_XkNggi-6w@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.9.1491728745.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <58ec9192$0$1602$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <87a87mn8rc.fsf@nightsong.com>
 <58ed8c02$0$1620$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
Message-ID: <878tn5zqxf.fsf@bsb.me.uk>

Steve D'Aprano <steve+python at pearwood.info> writes:

> On Wed, 12 Apr 2017 03:39 am, Paul Rubin wrote:
>
>> I still do my everyday stuff in Python and I'd like to get more
>> conversant with stuff like numpy, but it feels like an old-fashioned
>> language these days.
>
> "Old fashioned"? With await/async just added to the language, and type
> annotations? And comprehensions and iterators?
>
> Admittedly type annotations are mostly of interest to large projects with
> many developers and a huge code base. But the rest?
>
> Comprehensions may have been around for a decade or two in Haskell, but most
> older languages don't have them. I'm pretty sure Java doesn't. Does
> Javascript? Comprehensions feel like a fancy new language feature to
> me.

They've been in in Haskell for nearly three decades, but they were
around before that.  Miranda had them, as did Miranda's immediate
predecessor, KRC.  KRC dates from about 1980, so if you've been using
that lineage of languages, list comprehensions have been a standard
feature for 37 years.  I've been using them almost my entire programming
life.

It seems odd that ECMAScript (the JavaScript standard) does not have
them, but then JS seems to hide its function nature under an imperative
bushel.

Just another perspective...

<snip>
-- 
Ben.


From bart4858 at gmail.com  Wed Apr 12 09:44:19 2017
From: bart4858 at gmail.com (bart4858 at gmail.com)
Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2017 06:44:19 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Python and the need for speed
In-Reply-To: <lf5a87ln8k9.fsf@ling.helsinki.fi>
References: <768f9a44-5d90-4756-8a99-821253a491f8@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.5.1491710256.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <58e9e519$0$1528$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <mailman.9.1491728745.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <58ec9192$0$1602$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <oci97l$10u4$1@gioia.aioe.org>
 <58eceea2$0$1615$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <CAE6NSRD=xU_mNECNBU2w92Br=vgHJJVqSruGFrPB=vrbpkj0Nw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPjBxg_49OD_CNXUAHKjxYsUiLab4s_fCs_Ast3LyymB82zTCA@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.68.1491956914.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <4277c149-e136-4d33-91d5-d011df9149f1@googlegroups.com>
 <58edcdd2$0$1501$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <fdb4a93a-688e-4a3f-bbc3-0df3ee1d2ac7@googlegroups.com>
 <54f1685d-1d2d-44b5-869e-a510569ba9d1@googlegroups.com>
 <lf5a87ln8k9.fsf@ling.helsinki.fi>
Message-ID: <1d352948-9029-4b86-b2f1-2b52608109ea@googlegroups.com>

On Wednesday, 12 April 2017 12:56:32 UTC+1, Jussi Piitulainen  wrote:
> bartc writes:
> 

> > These are straightforward language enhancements.
> 
> FYI, the question is not how to optimize the code but how to prevent the
> programmer from writing stupid code in the first place. Someone
> suggested that a language should do that.

The 'stupid code' thing is a red herring. I assume the code people write is there for a reason.

But the language can also play a part in not allowing certain things to be expressed naturally. So the for-loop in the example has to have a control-variable even if it's not referenced.

There is no 'case' or 'switch' statement to test one expression against multiple possibilities; usually the suggestion is to use a Dict, more of a heavyweight feature of unknown efficiency. You can't take a numeric constant and give it a name, without turning it into a global variable which now needs a lookup and which can't be folded with other constants.

It seems Python completely disregards the question of efficiency, leaving that minor detail to implementations. But they can only work with what the language provides.

-- 
bartc


From rustompmody at gmail.com  Wed Apr 12 09:48:51 2017
From: rustompmody at gmail.com (Rustom Mody)
Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2017 06:48:51 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Python and the need for speed
In-Reply-To: <878tn5zqxf.fsf@bsb.me.uk>
References: <768f9a44-5d90-4756-8a99-821253a491f8@googlegroups.com>
 <CAPTjJmrMWpzGd9Lf_sa-mscvqezY01U5kDCPRh07Nuivvxo8yg@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.5.1491710256.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <58e9e519$0$1528$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <CAPTjJmq4bCoXWryo5Jahh4he1_GP5LGjyKtJ1Mxs_XkNggi-6w@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.9.1491728745.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <58ec9192$0$1602$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <87a87mn8rc.fsf@nightsong.com>
 <58ed8c02$0$1620$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <878tn5zqxf.fsf@bsb.me.uk>
Message-ID: <8daf1dfa-9deb-48c0-826b-07e0b350fa27@googlegroups.com>

On Wednesday, April 12, 2017 at 7:09:04 PM UTC+5:30, Ben Bacarisse wrote:
> Steve D'Aprano  writes:
> 
> > On Wed, 12 Apr 2017 03:39 am, Paul Rubin wrote:
> >
> >> I still do my everyday stuff in Python and I'd like to get more
> >> conversant with stuff like numpy, but it feels like an old-fashioned
> >> language these days.
> >
> > "Old fashioned"? With await/async just added to the language, and type
> > annotations? And comprehensions and iterators?
> >
> > Admittedly type annotations are mostly of interest to large projects with
> > many developers and a huge code base. But the rest?
> >
> > Comprehensions may have been around for a decade or two in Haskell, but most
> > older languages don't have them. I'm pretty sure Java doesn't. Does
> > Javascript? Comprehensions feel like a fancy new language feature to
> > me.
> 
> They've been in in Haskell for nearly three decades, but they were
> around before that.  Miranda had them, as did Miranda's immediate
> predecessor, KRC.  KRC dates from about 1980, so if you've been using
> that lineage of languages, list comprehensions have been a standard
> feature for 37 years.  I've been using them almost my entire programming
> life.
> 
> It seems odd that ECMAScript (the JavaScript standard) does not have
> them, but then JS seems to hide its function nature under an imperative
> bushel.

Comes from set comprehensions in SETL (I think)
ie about 50 years old
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SETL

Which itself goes back another 50 years to Zermelo-Fraenkel set theory
[Miranda actually used to call list comprehensions as ZF-expressions]


From larry.martell at gmail.com  Wed Apr 12 09:51:12 2017
From: larry.martell at gmail.com (Larry Martell)
Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2017 09:51:12 -0400
Subject: external process not terminating
Message-ID: <CACwCsY70moHdd_W=PDvV7N=WYXJJBeujr6RtZaVH7m+Y5QT2YA@mail.gmail.com>

I have an app (using 2.7) that processes requests. When a request of
type "A" is received I need to start an external process.

When a request of type "B" is received I need to check and see if that
external process has completed or not and then do some stuff depending
on if it has or not.

The issue I am running into is that when the external process is done
is does not exit, it goes into a zombie state, e.g.:

1 Z root     13703 13644  0  80   0 -     0 exit   09:37 ?
00:00:00 [python] <defunct>

Initially I was starting the process with Popen like this:

DEVNULL = open(os.devnull, "wb")
subprocess.Popen(cmd+args, stdin=DEVNULL, stdout=DEVNULL,
stderr=DEVNULL, close_fds=True)

I tried using os.spawn:

os.spawnv(os.P_NOWAIT, 'python', cmd+args)

But still the process did not exit.

Anyone know how I can get the external process to terminate when done?

TIA!


From torriem at gmail.com  Wed Apr 12 10:40:56 2017
From: torriem at gmail.com (Michael Torrie)
Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2017 08:40:56 -0600
Subject: Python and the need for speed
In-Reply-To: <87k26qlatw.fsf@nightsong.com>
References: <768f9a44-5d90-4756-8a99-821253a491f8@googlegroups.com>
 <CAPTjJmrMWpzGd9Lf_sa-mscvqezY01U5kDCPRh07Nuivvxo8yg@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.5.1491710256.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <58e9e519$0$1528$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <CAPTjJmq4bCoXWryo5Jahh4he1_GP5LGjyKtJ1Mxs_XkNggi-6w@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.9.1491728745.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <58ec9192$0$1602$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <87a87mn8rc.fsf@nightsong.com> <ocj81q$rfj$1@blaine.gmane.org>
 <CAPTjJmrBHKxUoPOHExROu4u8tQzxLMPWzXEJYxVQr7P4JLpk-w@mail.gmail.com>
 <ocja89$4vk$1@blaine.gmane.org>
 <CAPTjJmq3D58UY_qdpVKe5YCbgN97fqC+er3QgnHjfh+q5Ty6zA@mail.gmail.com>
 <ocjbt2$39e$1@blaine.gmane.org>
 <mailman.57.1491940082.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <87k26qlatw.fsf@nightsong.com>
Message-ID: <0c09c8c2-e68c-ed58-5603-0efa2aebbe70@gmail.com>

On 04/11/2017 06:38 PM, Paul Rubin wrote:
> Grant Edwards <grant.b.edwards at gmail.com> writes:
>> If there are now other Python implementations (e.g. MicroPython) with
>> C APIs that differ from CPython, then it seems like it is no longer
>> redundant to say "the CPython API".
> 
> Perhaps there should be an attempt to define a unified API like the Java
> JNI, Lisp FFI's, etc.

This is not at all what the CPython API is all about.  The CPython API
is of course for extending Python with or embedding Python in C.

Equivalent to the JNI and Lisp FFI is the CFFI [1].  The JNI, the FFI,
and the CFFI, are all for calling native code from within their
respective languages, if I understand correctly.  They don't define a
standard way for native code to call into these languages.

[1] https://cffi.readthedocs.io/en/latest/


From torriem at gmail.com  Wed Apr 12 10:46:45 2017
From: torriem at gmail.com (Michael Torrie)
Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2017 08:46:45 -0600
Subject: Python and the need for speed
In-Reply-To: <ocks9s$10uq$1@gioia.aioe.org>
References: <768f9a44-5d90-4756-8a99-821253a491f8@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.5.1491710256.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <58e9e519$0$1528$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <mailman.9.1491728745.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <58ec9192$0$1602$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <oci97l$10u4$1@gioia.aioe.org>
 <58eceea2$0$1615$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <ocks9s$10uq$1@gioia.aioe.org>
Message-ID: <ea89c7ae-3e50-92f2-2027-eb9b9802b95d@gmail.com>

On 04/12/2017 03:33 AM, Brecht Machiels wrote:
> However, rinohtype is located in a very different niche and it would 
> greatly benefit a lot from a speed boost. Rendering the Sphinx 
> documentation (311 pages) takes almost 10 minutes on my i7, which is 
> simply too long given the available processing power. And yes, I have 
> spent a lot time profiling and optimizing the code. You're always 
> welcome to demonstrate my incompetence by means of a pull request, of 
> course ;-)

You talked about PyPy before.  Did you try rinohtype on pypy3?

I tried to download pypy3 just now but the x86_64 binary package isn't
compatible with my old distro (Centos 7) and I don't quite have time to
build it from source.  But if I can get that running I would like to try
your rinoh demos with it and see how it performs.  I've seen some pretty
good speedups on slow, CPU-intensive python code before with pypy.



From davidgshi at yahoo.co.uk  Wed Apr 12 10:54:32 2017
From: davidgshi at yahoo.co.uk (David Shi)
Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2017 14:54:32 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: XML tree to a pandas dataframe
References: <1040609956.845534.1492008872146.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <1040609956.845534.1492008872146@mail.yahoo.com>

What is the best way to convert XML document into a pandas dataframe?
Regards.
David

From brecht__gmane at mos6581.org  Wed Apr 12 11:04:23 2017
From: brecht__gmane at mos6581.org (Brecht Machiels)
Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2017 17:04:23 +0200
Subject: Python and the need for speed
References: <768f9a44-5d90-4756-8a99-821253a491f8@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.5.1491710256.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <58e9e519$0$1528$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <mailman.9.1491728745.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <58ec9192$0$1602$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <oci97l$10u4$1@gioia.aioe.org>
 <58eceea2$0$1615$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <ocks9s$10uq$1@gioia.aioe.org>
 <mailman.88.1492008411.2951.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <oclflm$4da$1@gioia.aioe.org>

On 2017-04-12 14:46:45 +0000, Michael Torrie said:

> On 04/12/2017 03:33 AM, Brecht Machiels wrote:
>> However, rinohtype is located in a very different niche and it would
>> greatly benefit a lot from a speed boost. Rendering the Sphinx
>> documentation (311 pages) takes almost 10 minutes on my i7, which is
>> simply too long given the available processing power. And yes, I have
>> spent a lot time profiling and optimizing the code. You're always
>> welcome to demonstrate my incompetence by means of a pull request, of
>> course ;-)
> 
> You talked about PyPy before.  Did you try rinohtype on pypy3?

I did. See 
https://bitbucket.org/pypy/pypy/issues/2365/rinohtype-much-slower-on-pypy3 


A long time ago, I also backported rinohtype to Python2 to test with 
PyPy2. See 
https://mail.python.org/pipermail/pypy-dev/2015-August/013767.html

I haven't been able to try the latest PyPy3 release because there is no 
binary for macOS, and building it using pyenv fails 
(https://github.com/pyenv/pyenv/issues/890).

> I tried to download pypy3 just now but the x86_64 binary package isn't
> compatible with my old distro (Centos 7) and I don't quite have time to
> build it from source.  But if I can get that running I would like to try
> your rinoh demos with it and see how it performs.  I've seen some pretty
> good speedups on slow, CPU-intensive python code before with pypy.

It would be great if you could run the benchmark I mention in my first 
link and share the results. Highly appreciated!

Best regards,
Brecht



From fpm at u.washington.edu  Wed Apr 12 11:28:13 2017
From: fpm at u.washington.edu (Frank Miles)
Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2017 15:28:13 -0000 (UTC)
Subject: closing image automatically  in for loop , python
References: <8e5d24d1-1453-4526-88d5-790702c00f1c@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <oclh2d$sv6$1@dont-email.me>

On Wed, 12 Apr 2017 04:18:45 -0700, Masoud Afshari wrote:

> filename ="Ex_resample" +'_sdf_'+ str(n)+'.dat'
>  with open(filename, 'rb') as f: #read binary file data = np.fromfile(f,
>  dtype='float64', count=nx*ny) #float64 for Double precision float numbers
>  Ex = np.reshape(data, [ny, nx], order='F')
>  #print Ex.max()

Your use of the 'with open(...) as f :' should automatically close access to
filename once beyond that section.  In your posting, the commented-out sections
and garbled spacing would prevent anything useful from happening.

Does that accurately reflect the code you're trying to run?
   -F


From davidgshi at yahoo.co.uk  Wed Apr 12 11:33:07 2017
From: davidgshi at yahoo.co.uk (David Shi)
Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2017 15:33:07 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: How to pd.read_csv into a DataFrame with multiple seperators?
References: <485144351.858803.1492011187414.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <485144351.858803.1492011187414@mail.yahoo.com>

Have a look at this example.
http://www.ebi.ac.uk/ena/data/warehouse/search?query=%22geo_circ(-0.587,-90.5713,170)%22&result=sequence_release&display=text


How to pd.read_csv into a DataFrame with multiple seperators?

Regards.
David

From jussi.piitulainen at helsinki.fi  Wed Apr 12 11:49:51 2017
From: jussi.piitulainen at helsinki.fi (Jussi Piitulainen)
Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2017 18:49:51 +0300
Subject: Python and the need for speed
References: <768f9a44-5d90-4756-8a99-821253a491f8@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.5.1491710256.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <58e9e519$0$1528$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <mailman.9.1491728745.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <58ec9192$0$1602$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <oci97l$10u4$1@gioia.aioe.org>
 <58eceea2$0$1615$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <CAE6NSRD=xU_mNECNBU2w92Br=vgHJJVqSruGFrPB=vrbpkj0Nw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPjBxg_49OD_CNXUAHKjxYsUiLab4s_fCs_Ast3LyymB82zTCA@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.68.1491956914.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <4277c149-e136-4d33-91d5-d011df9149f1@googlegroups.com>
 <58edcdd2$0$1501$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <fdb4a93a-688e-4a3f-bbc3-0df3ee1d2ac7@googlegroups.com>
 <54f1685d-1d2d-44b5-869e-a510569ba9d1@googlegroups.com>
 <lf5a87ln8k9.fsf@ling.helsinki.fi>
 <1d352948-9029-4b86-b2f1-2b52608109ea@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <lf5bms1lj6o.fsf@ling.helsinki.fi>

bart4858 at gmail.com writes:

> On Wednesday, 12 April 2017 12:56:32 UTC+1, Jussi Piitulainen  wrote:
>> bartc writes:
>> 
>
>> > These are straightforward language enhancements.
>> 
>> FYI, the question is not how to optimize the code but how to prevent
>> the programmer from writing stupid code in the first place. Someone
>> suggested that a language should do that.
>
> The 'stupid code' thing is a red herring. I assume the code people
> write is there for a reason.

So you walked in to a conversation about something that does not
interest you and simply started talking about your own thing.

Because of course you did.

I get confused when you do that.


From irmen.NOSPAM at xs4all.nl  Wed Apr 12 12:57:18 2017
From: irmen.NOSPAM at xs4all.nl (Irmen de Jong)
Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2017 18:57:18 +0200
Subject: IOError: [Errno 12] Not enough space
In-Reply-To: <dc305071-b179-4e50-a087-185afbb67fd2@googlegroups.com>
References: <8199cb7a-fded-42b1-8a76-c9a2de4d7c78@googlegroups.com>
 <58ed0e3c$0$829$e4fe514c@news.xs4all.nl>
 <dc305071-b179-4e50-a087-185afbb67fd2@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <58ee5c6c$0$726$e4fe514c@news.xs4all.nl>

On 12-4-2017 7:54, LnT wrote:
> 
> Hi Irmen,
> 
> you may please find full log @ https://pastebin.mozilla.org/9018753

I have no idea what I'm looking at.

But my initial response was wrong, see the reply by eryk sun; your error has nothing to
do with disk space but rather, a lack of system memory.

Irmen



From Jack at nichesoftsolutions.com  Wed Apr 12 13:50:39 2017
From: Jack at nichesoftsolutions.com (Jack at nichesoftsolutions.com)
Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2017 10:50:39 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: HOT LIST
Message-ID: <dc14b2ee-c69a-4ef6-bc63-1d1bff8a9e14@googlegroups.com>

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From bart4858 at gmail.com  Wed Apr 12 14:27:04 2017
From: bart4858 at gmail.com (bart4858 at gmail.com)
Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2017 11:27:04 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Python and the need for speed
In-Reply-To: <lf5bms1lj6o.fsf@ling.helsinki.fi>
References: <768f9a44-5d90-4756-8a99-821253a491f8@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.5.1491710256.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <58e9e519$0$1528$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <mailman.9.1491728745.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <58ec9192$0$1602$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <oci97l$10u4$1@gioia.aioe.org>
 <58eceea2$0$1615$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <CAE6NSRD=xU_mNECNBU2w92Br=vgHJJVqSruGFrPB=vrbpkj0Nw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPjBxg_49OD_CNXUAHKjxYsUiLab4s_fCs_Ast3LyymB82zTCA@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.68.1491956914.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <4277c149-e136-4d33-91d5-d011df9149f1@googlegroups.com>
 <58edcdd2$0$1501$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <fdb4a93a-688e-4a3f-bbc3-0df3ee1d2ac7@googlegroups.com>
 <54f1685d-1d2d-44b5-869e-a510569ba9d1@googlegroups.com>
 <lf5a87ln8k9.fsf@ling.helsinki.fi>
 <1d352948-9029-4b86-b2f1-2b52608109ea@googlegroups.com>
 <lf5bms1lj6o.fsf@ling.helsinki.fi>
Message-ID: <9506d7a6-cdd8-4285-8c2d-4c71b48be5da@googlegroups.com>

On Wednesday, 12 April 2017 16:50:01 UTC+1, Jussi Piitulainen  wrote:
> bart4858 at gmail.com writes:
> 
> > On Wednesday, 12 April 2017 12:56:32 UTC+1, Jussi Piitulainen  wrote:
> >> bartc writes:
> >> 
> >
> >> > These are straightforward language enhancements.
> >> 
> >> FYI, the question is not how to optimize the code but how to prevent
> >> the programmer from writing stupid code in the first place. Someone
> >> suggested that a language should do that.
> >
> > The 'stupid code' thing is a red herring. I assume the code people
> > write is there for a reason.
> 
> So you walked in to a conversation about something that does not
> interest you and simply started talking about your own thing.
> 
> Because of course you did.
> 
> I get confused when you do that.

Huh? The subject is making Python faster. It's generally agreed that being very dynamic makes that harder, everything else being equal.

I don't agree that stopping people writing silly code is that helpful. It might be in the itself silly example of 'for i in range(10): x+=1', but usually there will be a good reason for such a loop.

If you want to argue that bad choices of algorithm and bad code are a factor in performance, then there's that too. But that applies equally to every language.

You can choose the best algorithm and perfectly correct code, and Python will still most likely execute it more slowely than a less dynamic language.

If by some chance Python is faster, then it will probably be because it's offloading the real work to some library, not written in Python.


From rosuav at gmail.com  Wed Apr 12 14:38:47 2017
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2017 04:38:47 +1000
Subject: XML tree to a pandas dataframe
In-Reply-To: <1040609956.845534.1492008872146@mail.yahoo.com>
References: <1040609956.845534.1492008872146.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
 <1040609956.845534.1492008872146@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmoNsWPbFEvHBy_SLjyg+WWvne__GYMjTsQ58Sfqvm6Qfg@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Apr 13, 2017 at 12:54 AM, David Shi via Python-list
<python-list at python.org> wrote:
> What is the best way to convert XML document into a pandas dataframe?
> Regards.
> David

I don't know.  What's the least painful way to gouge out my eyes with
a rusty fork?

You're going to need to know the layout of the XML document. Since XML
is not, by nature, a tabular data structure, it's not going to
directly translate into a dataframe (in the way that, say, a CSV file
can). You'll need to figure out what represents a row and what
represents the fields within that row. This will probably involve a
large amount of work parsing the XML file; you can do the low level
heavy lifting with lxml or equivalent, but compiling the parsed data
into rows and columns is all up to you.

In all sincerity I say to you: Good luck.

ChrisA


From bart4858 at gmail.com  Wed Apr 12 14:45:16 2017
From: bart4858 at gmail.com (bart4858 at gmail.com)
Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2017 11:45:16 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Python and the need for speed
In-Reply-To: <oclflm$4da$1@gioia.aioe.org>
References: <768f9a44-5d90-4756-8a99-821253a491f8@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.5.1491710256.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <58e9e519$0$1528$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <mailman.9.1491728745.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <58ec9192$0$1602$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <oci97l$10u4$1@gioia.aioe.org>
 <58eceea2$0$1615$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <ocks9s$10uq$1@gioia.aioe.org>
 <mailman.88.1492008411.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <oclflm$4da$1@gioia.aioe.org>
Message-ID: <3d3ce9b0-5388-42fe-9472-a511e0e10d8d@googlegroups.com>

On Wednesday, 12 April 2017 16:04:53 UTC+1, Brecht Machiels  wrote:
> On 2017-04-12 14:46:45 +0000, Michael Torrie said:

> It would be great if you could run the benchmark I mention in my first 
> link and share the results. Highly appreciated!

Were you ever able to isolate what it was that's taking up most of the time? Either in general or in the bit that pypy has trouble with. Or is execution time spread too widely?

(I looked at your project but it's too large, and didn't get much further with the github benchmark, which requires me to subscribe, but the .sh file extensions don't seem too promising to someone on Windows.)

Your program seems to be to do with typesetting. Is it possible to at least least quantity the work that is being done in terms of total bytes (and total files) of input, and bytes of output? That might enable comparisons with other systems executing similar tasks, to see if the Python version is taking unreasonably long.

-- 
bartc


From python at deborahswanson.net  Wed Apr 12 15:57:08 2017
From: python at deborahswanson.net (Deborah Swanson)
Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2017 12:57:08 -0700
Subject: Namedtuples: some unexpected inconveniences
Message-ID: <008101d2b3c6$f8261eb0$27b23dae@sambora>

I won't say the following points are categorically true, but I became
convinced enough they were true in this instance that I abandoned the
advised strategy. Which was to use defaultdict to group the list of
namedtuples by one of the fields for the purpose of determining whether
certain other fields in each group were either missing values or
contained contradictory values.

Are these bugs, or was there something I could have done to avoid these
problems? Or are they just things you need to know working with
namedtuples?

The list of namedtuples was created with:

infile = open("E:\\Coding projects\\Pycharm\\Moving\\Moving 2017 in -
test.csv") 
rows = csv.reader(infile)fieldnames = next(rows) 
Record = namedtuple("Record", fieldnames) 
records = [Record._make(fieldnames)]
records.extend(Record._make(row) for row in rows)
    . . .
(many lines of field processing code)
    . . .

then the attempt to group the records by title:

import operator
records[1:] = sorted(records[1:], key=operator.attrgetter("title",
"Date")) groups = defaultdict() for r in records[1:]:
    # if the key doesn't exist, make a new group
    if r.title not in groups.keys():
        groups[r.title] = [r]
    # if key (group) exists, append this record
    else:
        groups[r.title].append(r)

(Please note that this default dict will not automatically make new keys
when they are encountered, possibly because the keys of the defaultdict
are made from namedtuples and the values are namedtuples. So you have to
include the step to make a new key when a key is not found.)

If you succeed in modifying records in a group, the dismaying thing is
that the underlying records are not updated, making the entire exercise
totally pointless, which was a severe and unexpected inconvenience.

It looks like the values and the structure were only copied from the
original list of namedtuples to the defaultdict. The rows of the
grouped-by dict still behave like namedtuples, but they are no longer
the same namedtuples as the original list of namedtuples. (I'm sure I
didn't say that quite right, please correct me if you have better words
for it.) 

It might be possible to complete the operation and then write out the
groups of rows of namedtuples in the dict to a simple list of
namedtuples, discarding the original, but at the time I noticed that
modifying rows in a group didn't change the values in the original list
of namedtuples, I still had further to go with the dict of groups,  and
it was looking easier by the minute to solve the missing values problem
directly from the original list of namedtuples, so that's what I did.

If requested I can reproduce how I saw that the original list of
namedtuples was not changed when I modified field values in group rows
of the dict, but it's lengthy and messy. It might be worthwhile though
if someone might see a mistake I made, though I found the same behavior
several different ways. Which was when I called it barking up the wrong
tree and quit trying to solve the problem that way. 

Another inconvenience is that there appears to be no way to access field
values of a named tuple by variable, although I've had limited success
accessing by variable indices. However, direct attempts to do so, like:

values = {row[label] for row in group}  
    (where 'label' is a variable for the field names of a namedtuple)
    
    gets "object has no attribute 'label'

or, where 'record' is a row in a list of namedtuples and 'label' is a
variable for the fieldnames of a namedtuple:

    value = getattr(record, label)       
    setattr(record, label, value)	also don't work.
    
You get the error 'object has no attribute 'label' every time.




From python at mrabarnett.plus.com  Wed Apr 12 16:42:12 2017
From: python at mrabarnett.plus.com (MRAB)
Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2017 21:42:12 +0100
Subject: Namedtuples: some unexpected inconveniences
In-Reply-To: <008101d2b3c6$f8261eb0$27b23dae@sambora>
References: <008101d2b3c6$f8261eb0$27b23dae@sambora>
Message-ID: <64bc7c73-8f33-ef87-8b21-bd0a6ef526e9@mrabarnett.plus.com>

On 2017-04-12 20:57, Deborah Swanson wrote:
> I won't say the following points are categorically true, but I became
> convinced enough they were true in this instance that I abandoned the
> advised strategy. Which was to use defaultdict to group the list of
> namedtuples by one of the fields for the purpose of determining whether
> certain other fields in each group were either missing values or
> contained contradictory values.
> 
> Are these bugs, or was there something I could have done to avoid these
> problems? Or are they just things you need to know working with
> namedtuples?
> 
> The list of namedtuples was created with:
> 
> infile = open("E:\\Coding projects\\Pycharm\\Moving\\Moving 2017 in -
> test.csv")
> rows = csv.reader(infile)fieldnames = next(rows)
> Record = namedtuple("Record", fieldnames)
> records = [Record._make(fieldnames)]
> records.extend(Record._make(row) for row in rows)
>      . . .
> (many lines of field processing code)
>      . . .
> 
> then the attempt to group the records by title:
> 
> import operator
> records[1:] = sorted(records[1:], key=operator.attrgetter("title",
> "Date")) groups = defaultdict() for r in records[1:]:
>      # if the key doesn't exist, make a new group
>      if r.title not in groups.keys():
>          groups[r.title] = [r]
>      # if key (group) exists, append this record
>      else:
>          groups[r.title].append(r)
> 
> (Please note that this default dict will not automatically make new keys
> when they are encountered, possibly because the keys of the defaultdict
> are made from namedtuples and the values are namedtuples. So you have to
> include the step to make a new key when a key is not found.)
> 
The defaultdict _will_ work when you use it properly. :-)

The line should be:

     groups = defaultdict(list)

so that it'll make a new list every time a new key is automatically added.

Another point: namedtuples, as with normal tuples, are immutable; once 
created, you can't change an attribute. A dict might be a better bet.

> If you succeed in modifying records in a group, the dismaying thing is
> that the underlying records are not updated, making the entire exercise
> totally pointless, which was a severe and unexpected inconvenience.
> 
> It looks like the values and the structure were only copied from the
> original list of namedtuples to the defaultdict. The rows of the
> grouped-by dict still behave like namedtuples, but they are no longer
> the same namedtuples as the original list of namedtuples. (I'm sure I
> didn't say that quite right, please correct me if you have better words
> for it.)
> 
> It might be possible to complete the operation and then write out the
> groups of rows of namedtuples in the dict to a simple list of
> namedtuples, discarding the original, but at the time I noticed that
> modifying rows in a group didn't change the values in the original list
> of namedtuples, I still had further to go with the dict of groups,  and
> it was looking easier by the minute to solve the missing values problem
> directly from the original list of namedtuples, so that's what I did.
> 
> If requested I can reproduce how I saw that the original list of
> namedtuples was not changed when I modified field values in group rows
> of the dict, but it's lengthy and messy. It might be worthwhile though
> if someone might see a mistake I made, though I found the same behavior
> several different ways. Which was when I called it barking up the wrong
> tree and quit trying to solve the problem that way.
> 
> Another inconvenience is that there appears to be no way to access field
> values of a named tuple by variable, although I've had limited success
> accessing by variable indices. However, direct attempts to do so, like:
> 
> values = {row[label] for row in group}
>      (where 'label' is a variable for the field names of a namedtuple)
>      
>      gets "object has no attribute 'label'
> 
> or, where 'record' is a row in a list of namedtuples and 'label' is a
> variable for the fieldnames of a namedtuple:
> 
>      value = getattr(record, label)
>      setattr(record, label, value)	also don't work.
>      
> You get the error 'object has no attribute 'label' every time.
> 


From andrew.holway at otternetworks.de  Wed Apr 12 16:42:22 2017
From: andrew.holway at otternetworks.de (andrew.holway at otternetworks.de)
Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2017 13:42:22 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Passing parameters thru decorators
Message-ID: <e8942eff-4820-484d-8202-956a8c0d6058@googlegroups.com>

Hi,

I'm trying to work out how to pass parameters through decorators:

class Meow():

    def __init__(self, arg1, arg2):
        print("INIT ClassBasedDecoratorWithParams")
        print(arg1)
        print(arg2)

    def makebold(self, fn):
            def wrapped():
                return "<b>" + fn() + "</b>"
            return wrapped

banana = Meow("foo", "bar")
@banana.makebold("foobar")

def hello():
    return "hello world"

print(hello())


Returns error: 
INIT ClassBasedDecoratorWithParams
Traceback (most recent call last):
foo
  File "/Users/andrew/PycharmProjects/untitled3/meow5.py", line 15, in <module>
bar
    @banana.makebold("foobar")
TypeError: wrapped() takes 0 positional arguments but 1 was given


so I add a var to wrapped:

    def makebold(self, fn):
            def wrapped(flibble):
                print(flibble)
                return "<b>" + fn() + "</b>"
            return wrapped

Returns error:
INIT ClassBasedDecoratorWithParams
Traceback (most recent call last):
foo
bar
  File "/Users/andrew/PycharmProjects/untitled3/meow5.py", line 16, in <module>
<function hello at 0x1029198c8>
    @banana.makebold("foobar")
  File "/Users/andrew/PycharmProjects/untitled3/meow5.py", line 11, in wrapped
    return "<b>" + fn() + "</b>"
TypeError: 'str' object is not callable

This is confusing me. How do I get hold of the "foobar" string so I can use it in the decorator?

Cheers,

Andrew


From __peter__ at web.de  Wed Apr 12 16:44:46 2017
From: __peter__ at web.de (Peter Otten)
Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2017 22:44:46 +0200
Subject: Namedtuples: some unexpected inconveniences
References: <008101d2b3c6$f8261eb0$27b23dae@sambora>
Message-ID: <ocm3jt$h2q$1@blaine.gmane.org>

Deborah Swanson wrote:

> I won't say the following points are categorically true, but I became
> convinced enough they were true in this instance that I abandoned the
> advised strategy. Which was to use defaultdict to group the list of
> namedtuples by one of the fields for the purpose of determining whether
> certain other fields in each group were either missing values or
> contained contradictory values.
> 
> Are these bugs, or was there something I could have done to avoid these
> problems? Or are they just things you need to know working with
> namedtuples?
> 
> The list of namedtuples was created with:
> 
> infile = open("E:\\Coding projects\\Pycharm\\Moving\\Moving 2017 in -
> test.csv")
> rows = csv.reader(infile)fieldnames = next(rows)
> Record = namedtuple("Record", fieldnames)
> records = [Record._make(fieldnames)]
> records.extend(Record._make(row) for row in rows)
>     . . .
> (many lines of field processing code)
>     . . .
> 
> then the attempt to group the records by title:
> 
> import operator
> records[1:] = sorted(records[1:], key=operator.attrgetter("title",
> "Date")) 

Personally I would immediately discard the header row once and for all, not 
again and again on every operation.

> groups = defaultdict() for r in records[1:]:
>     # if the key doesn't exist, make a new group
>     if r.title not in groups.keys():
>         groups[r.title] = [r]
>     # if key (group) exists, append this record
>     else:
>         groups[r.title].append(r)

You are not using the defaultdict the way it is intended; the groups can be 
built with

groups = defaultdict(list)
for r in records[1:]:
    groups[r.title].append(r)
 
> (Please note that this default dict will not automatically make new keys
> when they are encountered, possibly because the keys of the defaultdict
> are made from namedtuples and the values are namedtuples. So you have to
> include the step to make a new key when a key is not found.)
> 
> If you succeed in modifying records in a group, the dismaying thing is
> that the underlying records are not updated, making the entire exercise
> totally pointless, which was a severe and unexpected inconvenience.
> 
> It looks like the values and the structure were only copied from the
> original list of namedtuples to the defaultdict. The rows of the
> grouped-by dict still behave like namedtuples, but they are no longer
> the same namedtuples as the original list of namedtuples. (I'm sure I
> didn't say that quite right, please correct me if you have better words
> for it.)

They should be the same namedtuple. Something is wrong with your actual code 
or your diagnosis or both.

> 
> It might be possible to complete the operation and then write out the
> groups of rows of namedtuples in the dict to a simple list of
> namedtuples, discarding the original, but at the time I noticed that
> modifying rows in a group didn't change the values in the original list
> of namedtuples, I still had further to go with the dict of groups,  and
> it was looking easier by the minute to solve the missing values problem
> directly from the original list of namedtuples, so that's what I did.
> 
> If requested I can reproduce how I saw that the original list of
> namedtuples was not changed when I modified field values in group rows
> of the dict, but it's lengthy and messy. It might be worthwhile though
> if someone might see a mistake I made, though I found the same behavior
> several different ways. Which was when I called it barking up the wrong
> tree and quit trying to solve the problem that way.
> 
> Another inconvenience is that there appears to be no way to access field
> values of a named tuple by variable, although I've had limited success
> accessing by variable indices. However, direct attempts to do so, like:
> 
> values = {row[label] for row in group}
>     (where 'label' is a variable for the field names of a namedtuple)
>     
>     gets "object has no attribute 'label'
> 
> or, where 'record' is a row in a list of namedtuples and 'label' is a
> variable for the fieldnames of a namedtuple:
> 
>     value = getattr(record, label)

That should work.

>     setattr(record, label, value)	also don't work.
>     
> You get the error 'object has no attribute 'label' every time.

Indeed you cannot change the namedtuple's attributes. Like the "normal" 
tuple it is designed to be immutable. If you want changes in one list (the 
group) to appear in another (the original records) you need a mutable data 
type.




From python at mrabarnett.plus.com  Wed Apr 12 17:04:45 2017
From: python at mrabarnett.plus.com (MRAB)
Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2017 22:04:45 +0100
Subject: Passing parameters thru decorators
In-Reply-To: <e8942eff-4820-484d-8202-956a8c0d6058@googlegroups.com>
References: <e8942eff-4820-484d-8202-956a8c0d6058@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <fd759aff-5097-634d-2002-432b27bbb8b3@mrabarnett.plus.com>

On 2017-04-12 21:42, andrew.holway at otternetworks.de wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> I'm trying to work out how to pass parameters through decorators:
> 
> class Meow():
> 
>      def __init__(self, arg1, arg2):
>          print("INIT ClassBasedDecoratorWithParams")
>          print(arg1)
>          print(arg2)
> 
>      def makebold(self, fn):
>              def wrapped():
>                  return "<b>" + fn() + "</b>"
>              return wrapped
> 
> banana = Meow("foo", "bar")
> @banana.makebold("foobar")
> 
> def hello():
>      return "hello world"
> 
> print(hello())
> 
> 
> Returns error:
> INIT ClassBasedDecoratorWithParams
> Traceback (most recent call last):
> foo
>    File "/Users/andrew/PycharmProjects/untitled3/meow5.py", line 15, in <module>
> bar
>      @banana.makebold("foobar")
> TypeError: wrapped() takes 0 positional arguments but 1 was given
> 
> 
> so I add a var to wrapped:
> 
>      def makebold(self, fn):
>              def wrapped(flibble):
>                  print(flibble)
>                  return "<b>" + fn() + "</b>"
>              return wrapped
> 
> Returns error:
> INIT ClassBasedDecoratorWithParams
> Traceback (most recent call last):
> foo
> bar
>    File "/Users/andrew/PycharmProjects/untitled3/meow5.py", line 16, in <module>
> <function hello at 0x1029198c8>
>      @banana.makebold("foobar")
>    File "/Users/andrew/PycharmProjects/untitled3/meow5.py", line 11, in wrapped
>      return "<b>" + fn() + "</b>"
> TypeError: 'str' object is not callable
> 
> This is confusing me. How do I get hold of the "foobar" string so I can use it in the decorator?
> 
You're passing "foobar" into 'makebold' in the parameter 'fn' and then 
trying to call 'fn' in the return statement. You can't call a string.


From python at deborahswanson.net  Wed Apr 12 17:17:12 2017
From: python at deborahswanson.net (Deborah Swanson)
Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2017 14:17:12 -0700
Subject: Namedtuples: some unexpected inconveniences
In-Reply-To: <64bc7c73-8f33-ef87-8b21-bd0a6ef526e9@mrabarnett.plus.com>
Message-ID: <009601d2b3d2$2799ca60$27b23dae@sambora>



> -----Original Message-----
> From: Python-list 
> [mailto:python-list-bounces+python=deborahswanson.net at python.o
> rg] On Behalf Of MRAB
> Sent: Wednesday, April 12, 2017 1:42 PM
> To: python-list at python.org
> Subject: Re: Namedtuples: some unexpected inconveniences
> 
> 
> On 2017-04-12 20:57, Deborah Swanson wrote:
> > Are these bugs, or was there something I could have done to avoid 
> > these problems? Or are they just things you need to know 
> working with namedtuples?
> > 
> > The list of namedtuples was created with:
> > 
> > infile = open("E:\\Coding projects\\Pycharm\\Moving\\Moving 
> 2017 in -
> > test.csv")
> > rows = csv.reader(infile)fieldnames = next(rows)
> > Record = namedtuple("Record", fieldnames)
> > records = [Record._make(fieldnames)]
> > records.extend(Record._make(row) for row in rows)
> >      . . .
> > (many lines of field processing code)
> >      . . .
> > 
> > then the attempt to group the records by title:
> > 
> > import operator
> > records[1:] = sorted(records[1:], key=operator.attrgetter("title",
> > "Date")) groups = defaultdict() for r in records[1:]:
> >      # if the key doesn't exist, make a new group
> >      if r.title not in groups.keys():
> >          groups[r.title] = [r]
> >      # if key (group) exists, append this record
> >      else:
> >          groups[r.title].append(r)
> > 
> > (Please note that this default dict will not automatically make new 
> > keys when they are encountered, possibly because the keys of the 
> > defaultdict are made from namedtuples and the values are 
> namedtuples. 
> > So you have to include the step to make a new key when a key is not 
> > found.)

MRAB said:
 
> The defaultdict _will_ work when you use it properly. :-)
> 
> The line should be:
> 
>      groups = defaultdict(list)
> 
> so that it'll make a new list every time a new key is 
> automatically added.

Arg. Now I remember the thought crossing my mind early on, and noticing
that the characterizing property of a defaultdict was what you set the
default to be. Too bad I forgot that useful thought once I was entangled
with all those other problems.

Thanks for jogging that memory stuck in a hidey hole.

> Another point: namedtuples, as with normal tuples, are immutable; once

> created, you can't change an attribute. A dict might be a better bet.

Yes, namedtuples still being tuples was a point mentioned in passing by
someone, I think Steve D'Aprano, but I didn't immediately see that as
being the roadblock to accessing field values by variable. It does make
sense now though, although others on the list also didn't see it, so I'm
not feeling as bad about it as I could.

Namedtuples absolutely was the right data structure for two thirds of
this program. I only ran into trouble with it trying to do the
defaultdict group by thing. And it all turned out ok just by going back
to the original list.

Now, if I could understand why the namedtuples grouped by the
defaultdict were only copied instead of remaining the same namedtuples
as the list they were copied from, that should wrap this set of problems
up.

Many thanks again!

Deborah



From __peter__ at web.de  Wed Apr 12 17:22:33 2017
From: __peter__ at web.de (Peter Otten)
Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2017 23:22:33 +0200
Subject: Passing parameters thru decorators
References: <e8942eff-4820-484d-8202-956a8c0d6058@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <ocm5qk$cu4$1@blaine.gmane.org>

andrew.holway at otternetworks.de wrote:

> Hi,
> 
> I'm trying to work out how to pass parameters through decorators:
> 
> class Meow():
> 
>     def __init__(self, arg1, arg2):
>         print("INIT ClassBasedDecoratorWithParams")
>         print(arg1)
>         print(arg2)
> 
>     def makebold(self, fn):
>             def wrapped():
>                 return "<b>" + fn() + "</b>"
>             return wrapped
> 
> banana = Meow("foo", "bar")
> @banana.makebold("foobar")
> 
> def hello():
>     return "hello world"
> 
> print(hello())
> 
> 
> Returns error:
> INIT ClassBasedDecoratorWithParams
> Traceback (most recent call last):
> foo
>   File "/Users/andrew/PycharmProjects/untitled3/meow5.py", line 15, in
>   <module>
> bar
>     @banana.makebold("foobar")
> TypeError: wrapped() takes 0 positional arguments but 1 was given
> 
> 
> so I add a var to wrapped:
> 
>     def makebold(self, fn):
>             def wrapped(flibble):
>                 print(flibble)
>                 return "<b>" + fn() + "</b>"
>             return wrapped
> 
> Returns error:
> INIT ClassBasedDecoratorWithParams
> Traceback (most recent call last):
> foo
> bar
>   File "/Users/andrew/PycharmProjects/untitled3/meow5.py", line 16, in
>   <module>
> <function hello at 0x1029198c8>
>     @banana.makebold("foobar")
>   File "/Users/andrew/PycharmProjects/untitled3/meow5.py", line 11, in
>   wrapped
>     return "<b>" + fn() + "</b>"
> TypeError: 'str' object is not callable
> 
> This is confusing me. How do I get hold of the "foobar" string so I can
> use it in the decorator?

You need one more level of indirection:

class Meow():
    def __init__(self, arg1, arg2):
        print("INIT ClassBasedDecoratorWithParams")
        print(arg1)
        print(arg2)

    def makebold(self, flibble):
        def decorator(fn):
            def wrapped():
                print("flibble =", flibble)
                return "<b>" + fn() + "</b>"
            return wrapped
        return decorator

banana = Meow("foo", "bar")

@banana.makebold("foobar")
def hello():
    return "hello world"

print(hello())




From larry.martell at gmail.com  Wed Apr 12 17:46:32 2017
From: larry.martell at gmail.com (Larry Martell)
Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2017 17:46:32 -0400
Subject: external process not terminating
In-Reply-To: <6kfsec56g7aikjqm2dedt9i2g2ohrnf6bh@4ax.com>
References: <CACwCsY70moHdd_W=PDvV7N=WYXJJBeujr6RtZaVH7m+Y5QT2YA@mail.gmail.com>
 <6kfsec56g7aikjqm2dedt9i2g2ohrnf6bh@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <CACwCsY7AyVht+AQ95Gg3evNhspxRXSMtVQOfoUByPVRNuyOfEw@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Apr 12, 2017 at 10:51 AM, Dennis Lee Bieber
<wlfraed at ix.netcom.com> wrote:
> On Wed, 12 Apr 2017 09:51:12 -0400, Larry Martell <larry.martell at gmail.com>
> declaimed the following:
>
>
>>
>>Anyone know how I can get the external process to terminate when done?
>>
>
>         It has... You just haven't cleaned up after it...
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zombie_process
>
> """
> This occurs for child processes, where the entry is still needed to allow
> the parent process to read its child's exit status: once the exit status is
> read via the wait system call, the zombie's entry is removed from the
> process table and it is said to be "reaped".
> """

Thanks. I knew that but I had lost the forest for the trees. I added a
call to os.waitpid() and now all is well.


From python at deborahswanson.net  Wed Apr 12 18:00:06 2017
From: python at deborahswanson.net (Deborah Swanson)
Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2017 15:00:06 -0700
Subject: Namedtuples: some unexpected inconveniences
In-Reply-To: <ocm3jt$h2q$1@blaine.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <00a901d2b3d8$25d09460$27b23dae@sambora>

Peter Otten wrote, on Wednesday, April 12, 2017 1:45 PM
> 
> Deborah Swanson wrote:
> 
> > I won't say the following points are categorically true, but I
became 
> > convinced enough they were true in this instance that I abandoned
the 
> > advised strategy. Which was to use defaultdict to group the list of 
> > namedtuples by one of the fields for the purpose of determining 
> > whether certain other fields in each group were either missing
values 
> > or contained contradictory values.
> > 
> > Are these bugs, or was there something I could have done to avoid 
> > these problems? Or are they just things you need to know working
with 
> > namedtuples?
> > 
> > The list of namedtuples was created with:
> > 
> > infile = open("E:\\Coding projects\\Pycharm\\Moving\\Moving 2017 in
-
> > test.csv")
> > rows = csv.reader(infile)fieldnames = next(rows)
> > Record = namedtuple("Record", fieldnames)
> > records = [Record._make(fieldnames)]
> > records.extend(Record._make(row) for row in rows)
> >     . . .
> > (many lines of field processing code)
> >     . . .
> > 
> > then the attempt to group the records by title:
> > 
> > import operator
> > records[1:] = sorted(records[1:], key=operator.attrgetter("title",
> > "Date"))
> 
> Personally I would immediately discard the header row once and for
all, not 
> again and again on every operation.

Well, perhaps, but I need the header row to stay in place to write the
list to a csv when I'm done (which is why it's there in the first
place). There might be a tiny performance edge in discarding the header
row for the sort, but there would also be a hit to recreate it at output
time.
 
> > groups = defaultdict() for r in records[1:]:
> >     # if the key doesn't exist, make a new group
> >     if r.title not in groups.keys():
> >         groups[r.title] = [r]
> >     # if key (group) exists, append this record
> >     else:
> >         groups[r.title].append(r)
> 
> You are not using the defaultdict the way it is intended; the 
> groups can be built with
> 
> groups = defaultdict(list)
> for r in records[1:]:
>     groups[r.title].append(r)

Yes, going back to your original post I see now that's what you gave,
and it's probably why I noticed defaultdict's being characterized by
what you make the default to be. Too bad I lost track of that.

> > (Please note that this default dict will not automatically make new 
> > keys when they are encountered, possibly because the keys of the 
> > defaultdict are made from namedtuples and the values are
namedtuples. 
> > So you have to include the step to make a new key when a key is not 
> > found.)
> > 
> > If you succeed in modifying records in a group, the dismaying thing
is 
> > that the underlying records are not updated, making the entire 
> > exercise totally pointless, which was a severe and unexpected 
> > inconvenience.
> > 
> > It looks like the values and the structure were only copied from the

> > original list of namedtuples to the defaultdict. The rows of the 
> > grouped-by dict still behave like namedtuples, but they are no
longer 
> > the same namedtuples as the original list of namedtuples. (I'm sure
I 
> > didn't say that quite right, please correct me if you have better 
> > words for it.)
> 
> They should be the same namedtuple. Something is wrong with 
> your actual code or your diagnosis or both.

Well, I didn't see them behaving as the same namedtuples, and I looked
hard at it, many different ways. If someone could point out the mistake
I might have made to get only copies of them or why they necessarily
would be the same namedtuples, I'd certainly look into it. Or better yet
some code that does the same thing and they remain the same ones. 

(But I think you got it right in your last sentence below. defaultdict
copied them because they were immutable, leaving the original list
unchanged.)

> > It might be possible to complete the operation and then write out
the 
> > groups of rows of namedtuples in the dict to a simple list of 
> > namedtuples, discarding the original, but at the time I noticed that

> > modifying rows in a group didn't change the values in the original 
> > list of namedtuples, I still had further to go with the dict of 
> > groups,  and it was looking easier by the minute to solve the
missing 
> > values problem directly from the original list of namedtuples, so 
> > that's what I did.
> > 
> > If requested I can reproduce how I saw that the original list of 
> > namedtuples was not changed when I modified field values in group
rows 
> > of the dict, but it's lengthy and messy. It might be worthwhile
though 
> > if someone might see a mistake I made, though I found the same 
> > behavior several different ways. Which was when I called it barking
up 
> > the wrong tree and quit trying to solve the problem that way.
> > 
> > Another inconvenience is that there appears to be no way to access 
> > field values of a named tuple by variable, although I've had limited

> > success accessing by variable indices. However, direct attempts to
do 
> > so, like:
> > 
> > values = {row[label] for row in group}
> >     (where 'label' is a variable for the field names of a
namedtuple)
> >     
> >     gets "object has no attribute 'label'
> > 
> > or, where 'record' is a row in a list of namedtuples and 'label' is
a 
> > variable for the fieldnames of a namedtuple:
> > 
> >     value = getattr(record, label)
> 
> That should work.

We may agree that it *should* work, by an intuitive grasp of how it
should work, but it doesn't. You get "object has no attribute 'label'.
It wants to see one of the specific names of a defined field and it
rejects the variable as an invalid attribute. I think MRAB nailed it by
pointing out that as fundamentally a tuple itself, a namedtuple is
immutable, and its elements can't be referenced by variable. 

> >     setattr(record, label, value)	also don't work.
> >     
> > You get the error 'object has no attribute 'label' every time.
> 
> Indeed you cannot change the namedtuple's attributes. Like the
"normal" 
> tuple it is designed to be immutable. If you want changes in one list
(the 
> group) to appear in another (the original records) you need a mutable
data 
> type.

Sadly, that does seem to be the correct conclusion here.



From __peter__ at web.de  Wed Apr 12 18:15:18 2017
From: __peter__ at web.de (Peter Otten)
Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2017 00:15:18 +0200
Subject: Namedtuples: some unexpected inconveniences
References: <ocm3jt$h2q$1@blaine.gmane.org>
 <00a901d2b3d8$25d09460$27b23dae@sambora>
Message-ID: <ocm8ti$v8c$1@blaine.gmane.org>

Deborah Swanson wrote:

>> >value = getattr(record, label)
>>
>> That should work.
> 
> We may agree that it *should* work, by an intuitive grasp of how it
> should work, but it doesn't. You get "object has no attribute 'label'.

Only if the namedtuple 

(1) does not have a label attribute and
(2) the value of the name label is the string "label"

In that case both

label = "label"
getattr(record, label)

and

record.label

will fail with the same AttributeError. The problem is *not* the dynamic 
access through getattr().

>> Indeed you cannot change the namedtuple's attributes. Like the "normal"
>> tuple it is designed to be immutable. If you want changes in one list
>> (the group) to appear in another (the original records) you need a 
>> mutable data type.
> 
> Sadly, that does seem to be the correct conclusion here.

Think hard if you really need the original list.



From python at lucidity.plus.com  Wed Apr 12 18:15:45 2017
From: python at lucidity.plus.com (Erik)
Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2017 23:15:45 +0100
Subject: Merging multiple sorted sequences.
Message-ID: <d99cc694-2167-3d83-38ee-b2df61c0e6b5@lucidity.plus.com>

Hi.

I need to be able to lazily merge a variable number of already-sorted(*) 
variable-length sequences into a single sorted sequence. The merge 
should continue until the longest sequence has been exhausted.

(*) They may in practice be a lazy source of data known to only ever be 
generated in an order that's "sorted" from the POV of this function.

I have the following - can anyone think of any improvements (other than 
indentation style on the try/excepts ;) )? This seems like the sort of 
thing for which there might be a built-in or recipe that I've missed.

-----------------------------------------
def merge(*sources):
     items = []
     for source in (iter(s) for s in sources):
        try: items.append([next(source), source])
        except StopIteration: pass

     while len(items) > 1:
         items.sort(key=lambda item: item[0])
         lowest = items[0]
         yield lowest[0]

         try: lowest[0] = next(lowest[1])
         except StopIteration: del items[0]

     if len(items) != 0:
        yield items[0][0]
        yield from items[0][1]
-----------------------------------------

Test code:

-----------------------------------------
a = range(10)
b = range(4, 50, 3)
c = range(20, 100, 5)

# Greedy version to verify result:
greedy = list(a) + list(b) + list(c)
greedy.sort()

# Test multiple sequences:
assert list(merge(a, b, c)) == greedy

# Test a single sequence:
assert list(merge(greedy)) == list(merge(a, b, c))

# Test no sequences:
assert list(merge()) == []
assert list(merge([], (), range(0))) == []
-----------------------------------------

Thanks, E.


From __peter__ at web.de  Wed Apr 12 18:42:41 2017
From: __peter__ at web.de (Peter Otten)
Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2017 00:42:41 +0200
Subject: Merging multiple sorted sequences.
References: <d99cc694-2167-3d83-38ee-b2df61c0e6b5@lucidity.plus.com>
Message-ID: <ocmagr$43e$1@blaine.gmane.org>

Erik wrote:

> I need to be able to lazily merge a variable number of already-sorted(*)
> variable-length sequences into a single sorted sequence. 

https://docs.python.org/dev/library/heapq.html#heapq.merge




From ian.g.kelly at gmail.com  Wed Apr 12 18:44:07 2017
From: ian.g.kelly at gmail.com (Ian Kelly)
Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2017 16:44:07 -0600
Subject: Merging multiple sorted sequences.
In-Reply-To: <d99cc694-2167-3d83-38ee-b2df61c0e6b5@lucidity.plus.com>
References: <d99cc694-2167-3d83-38ee-b2df61c0e6b5@lucidity.plus.com>
Message-ID: <CALwzidntcMubU7EGmFgZZV7yRoZMhY4R4Pmbbmh0aTYnzNLzXg@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Apr 12, 2017 at 4:15 PM, Erik <python at lucidity.plus.com> wrote:
> Hi.
>
> I need to be able to lazily merge a variable number of already-sorted(*)
> variable-length sequences into a single sorted sequence. The merge should
> continue until the longest sequence has been exhausted.
>
> (*) They may in practice be a lazy source of data known to only ever be
> generated in an order that's "sorted" from the POV of this function.
>
> I have the following - can anyone think of any improvements (other than
> indentation style on the try/excepts ;) )? This seems like the sort of thing
> for which there might be a built-in or recipe that I've missed.

There probably should be. I know I've implemented something similar in the past.

> -----------------------------------------
> def merge(*sources):
>     items = []
>     for source in (iter(s) for s in sources):
>        try: items.append([next(source), source])
>        except StopIteration: pass
>
>     while len(items) > 1:
>         items.sort(key=lambda item: item[0])

This might be okay since Timsort on an already-sorted list should be
O(n). But there's not really any need to keep them sorted and I would
just use "lowest = min(items, key=itemgetter(0))".

>         lowest = items[0]
>         yield lowest[0]
>
>         try: lowest[0] = next(lowest[1])
>         except StopIteration: del items[0]
>
>     if len(items) != 0:

"if items:"

>        yield items[0][0]
>        yield from items[0][1]
> -----------------------------------------


From ian.g.kelly at gmail.com  Wed Apr 12 18:45:57 2017
From: ian.g.kelly at gmail.com (Ian Kelly)
Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2017 16:45:57 -0600
Subject: Merging multiple sorted sequences.
In-Reply-To: <CALwzidntcMubU7EGmFgZZV7yRoZMhY4R4Pmbbmh0aTYnzNLzXg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <d99cc694-2167-3d83-38ee-b2df61c0e6b5@lucidity.plus.com>
 <CALwzidntcMubU7EGmFgZZV7yRoZMhY4R4Pmbbmh0aTYnzNLzXg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CALwzidn1tjTPVPoHTL60UP2+Tz-4O__0dBNcxNpb4vphLpi8_Q@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Apr 12, 2017 at 4:44 PM, Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Wed, Apr 12, 2017 at 4:15 PM, Erik <python at lucidity.plus.com> wrote:
>>     while len(items) > 1:
>>         items.sort(key=lambda item: item[0])
>
> This might be okay since Timsort on an already-sorted list should be
> O(n). But there's not really any need to keep them sorted and I would
> just use "lowest = min(items, key=itemgetter(0))".

Actually, you should consider using a heap.


From cs at zip.com.au  Wed Apr 12 18:52:13 2017
From: cs at zip.com.au (Cameron Simpson)
Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2017 08:52:13 +1000
Subject: Merging multiple sorted sequences.
In-Reply-To: <d99cc694-2167-3d83-38ee-b2df61c0e6b5@lucidity.plus.com>
References: <d99cc694-2167-3d83-38ee-b2df61c0e6b5@lucidity.plus.com>
Message-ID: <20170412225213.GA20243@cskk.homeip.net>

On 12Apr2017 23:15, Erik <python at lucidity.plus.com> wrote:
>I need to be able to lazily merge a variable number of already-sorted(*) 
>variable-length sequences into a single sorted sequence. The merge should 
>continue until the longest sequence has been exhausted.
>
>(*) They may in practice be a lazy source of data known to only ever 
>be generated in an order that's "sorted" from the POV of this 
>function.
>
>I have the following - can anyone think of any improvements (other 
>than indentation style on the try/excepts ;) )? This seems like the 
>sort of thing for which there might be a built-in or recipe that I've 
>missed.

It can be improved. The big cost in yours is notionally the sort, which you do 
on every yield.

For comparison, here's mine:

  https://bitbucket.org/cameron_simpson/css/src/tip/lib/python/cs/seq.py?fileviewer=file-view-default#seq.py-131

It keeps a heap (see the "heapq" standard module) containing tuples of the 
latest item from each source and the source iterable i.e. (item, iterable).

That way the lowest item is always first on the heap, so you pop it off, which 
gets you (item, iterable). Yield the item. Fetch the next item from iterable.  
If that gets StopIteration, that is exhausted. Otherwise insert the new item 
and the iterable back into the heap.

Repeat until the heap is empty.

In this way you discard exhausted iterables and never need to re-examine them, 
and the sorting overhead is just heap insertion which is O(log n) for the heap 
size. Your method is O(n log n) for each item (sorting the collection of head 
items).

The heap is faster because it makes a much weaker ordering guarentee, and for 
us the feature is that the front of the heap is the lowest item; the rest of 
the heap is partially ordered, not fully ordered. Insert and pop preserve that 
criterion.

Cheers,
Cameron Simpson <cs at zip.com.au>


From greg.ewing at canterbury.ac.nz  Wed Apr 12 19:09:17 2017
From: greg.ewing at canterbury.ac.nz (Gregory Ewing)
Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2017 11:09:17 +1200
Subject: Python and the need for speed
In-Reply-To: <1d352948-9029-4b86-b2f1-2b52608109ea@googlegroups.com>
References: <768f9a44-5d90-4756-8a99-821253a491f8@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.5.1491710256.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <58e9e519$0$1528$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <mailman.9.1491728745.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <58ec9192$0$1602$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <oci97l$10u4$1@gioia.aioe.org>
 <58eceea2$0$1615$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <CAE6NSRD=xU_mNECNBU2w92Br=vgHJJVqSruGFrPB=vrbpkj0Nw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPjBxg_49OD_CNXUAHKjxYsUiLab4s_fCs_Ast3LyymB82zTCA@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.68.1491956914.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <4277c149-e136-4d33-91d5-d011df9149f1@googlegroups.com>
 <58edcdd2$0$1501$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <fdb4a93a-688e-4a3f-bbc3-0df3ee1d2ac7@googlegroups.com>
 <54f1685d-1d2d-44b5-869e-a510569ba9d1@googlegroups.com>
 <lf5a87ln8k9.fsf@ling.helsinki.fi>
 <1d352948-9029-4b86-b2f1-2b52608109ea@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <el7qd0Fpai9U1@mid.individual.net>

bart4858 at gmail.com wrote:

> But the language can also play a part in not allowing certain things to be
> expressed naturally. So the for-loop in the example has to have a
> control-variable even if it's not referenced.

If the compiler can recognise when code is "stupid", it's
probably capable of doing something more intelligent than
just rejecting it outright.

E.g. it could notice that a loop variable wasn't used
anywhere in the function and optimise it out. And it could
recognise x += 1 and emit an ADD_ONE bytecode for it.
Etc.

-- 
Greg


From python at lucidity.plus.com  Wed Apr 12 19:09:42 2017
From: python at lucidity.plus.com (Erik)
Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2017 00:09:42 +0100
Subject: Merging multiple sorted sequences.
In-Reply-To: <CALwzidntcMubU7EGmFgZZV7yRoZMhY4R4Pmbbmh0aTYnzNLzXg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <d99cc694-2167-3d83-38ee-b2df61c0e6b5@lucidity.plus.com>
 <CALwzidntcMubU7EGmFgZZV7yRoZMhY4R4Pmbbmh0aTYnzNLzXg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <b8407f4c-5b51-6dfc-bcc1-6dc154a4fac4@lucidity.plus.com>

On 12/04/17 23:44, Ian Kelly wrote:
> This might be okay since Timsort on an already-sorted list should be
> O(n). But there's not really any need to keep them sorted and I would
> just use "lowest = min(items, key=itemgetter(0))".

Sure (and this was my main worry). I had it in my head for some reason 
that min() would return the smallest key, not the object (and hence I 
wouldn't be able to know which sequence object to get the next value 
from - sorting means it's always at index 0).

But of course, min() returns the outer object containing the key so I 
don't need to sort them to know how to address the correct sequence object.

operator.itemgetter() probably helps a bit, too ;)

I've done all that and it works.

Thanks, E.



From python at lucidity.plus.com  Wed Apr 12 19:15:47 2017
From: python at lucidity.plus.com (Erik)
Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2017 00:15:47 +0100
Subject: Merging multiple sorted sequences.
In-Reply-To: <ocmagr$43e$1@blaine.gmane.org>
References: <d99cc694-2167-3d83-38ee-b2df61c0e6b5@lucidity.plus.com>
 <ocmagr$43e$1@blaine.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <1815e8aa-473d-db5d-019a-d4440f61a8f8@lucidity.plus.com>

Hi Peter,

On 12/04/17 23:42, Peter Otten wrote:
> Erik wrote:
>
>> I need to be able to lazily merge a variable number of already-sorted(*)
>> variable-length sequences into a single sorted sequence.
>
> https://docs.python.org/dev/library/heapq.html#heapq.merge

AFAICT (looking at the Python 3.5 heapq implementation, albeit very 
briefly), it seems like that is a greedy algorithm. Am I missing something?

Thanks, E.


From python at deborahswanson.net  Wed Apr 12 19:29:15 2017
From: python at deborahswanson.net (Deborah Swanson)
Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2017 16:29:15 -0700
Subject: Namedtuples: some unexpected inconveniences
In-Reply-To: <ocm8ti$v8c$1@blaine.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <00bf01d2b3e4$99b6b8d0$27b23dae@sambora>

Peter Otten wrote, on Wednesday, April 12, 2017 3:15 PM
> 
> Deborah Swanson wrote:
> 
> >> >value = getattr(record, label)
> >>
> >> That should work.
> > 
> > We may agree that it *should* work, by an intuitive grasp of how it 
> > should work, but it doesn't. You get "object has no attribute
'label'.
> 
> Only if the namedtuple 
> 
> (1) does not have a label attribute and
> (2) the value of the name label is the string "label"
> 
> In that case both
> 
> label = "label"
> getattr(record, label)
> 
> and
> 
> record.label
> 
> will fail with the same AttributeError. The problem is *not* the
dynamic 
> access through getattr().

Agreed, it's not getattr's fault. 

It's a small point, but I suspect getattr(record, label) would still
fail, even if label's value is 'label' and only 'label', but what's the
point of having a variable if it will only ever have just one value?

The question would be whether the compiler (interpreter?) would look at 
getattr(record, label), evaluate label and see that there is a field
named 'label', but I suspect it wouldn't take that many steps. It wants
to see recordset.fieldname, and a bare "label" does not reference the
object.

I don't exactly understand your point (2). If the namedtuple does not
have a label attribute, then getattr(record, label) will get the error
whether the name label holds the string 'label' or not. And it wants to
see recordset.fieldname, not just fieldname. But maybe I misunderstood
what you were saying. This stuff is quite loopy to think about, at least
for me it is.

> >> Indeed you cannot change the namedtuple's attributes. Like the 
> >> "normal" tuple it is designed to be immutable. If you want changes
in 
> >> one list (the group) to appear in another (the original records)
you 
> >> need a mutable data type.
> > 
> > Sadly, that does seem to be the correct conclusion here.
> 
> Think hard if you really need the original list.

It's possible you might transform the namedtuple into a mutable type,
and I didn't try that. But it seems like the group-by defaultdict
strategy would have to have a significant performance edge to be worth
it and you wouldn't have any of the namedtuple properties to work with
after the transformation. I also ran into some trouble with your
algorithm that follows making the defaultdict, and I'm not sure what
value there would be in hashing through that. Though I'm certainly
willing to if you are.

It worked to simply stay with the original list of namedtuples to begin
with.

I remain grateful for your introduction to the collections module. What
a neat little package of tools!



From bart4858 at gmail.com  Wed Apr 12 19:30:38 2017
From: bart4858 at gmail.com (bart4858 at gmail.com)
Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2017 16:30:38 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Python and the need for speed
In-Reply-To: <el7qd0Fpai9U1@mid.individual.net>
References: <768f9a44-5d90-4756-8a99-821253a491f8@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.5.1491710256.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <58e9e519$0$1528$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <mailman.9.1491728745.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <58ec9192$0$1602$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <oci97l$10u4$1@gioia.aioe.org>
 <58eceea2$0$1615$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <CAE6NSRD=xU_mNECNBU2w92Br=vgHJJVqSruGFrPB=vrbpkj0Nw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPjBxg_49OD_CNXUAHKjxYsUiLab4s_fCs_Ast3LyymB82zTCA@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.68.1491956914.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <4277c149-e136-4d33-91d5-d011df9149f1@googlegroups.com>
 <58edcdd2$0$1501$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <fdb4a93a-688e-4a3f-bbc3-0df3ee1d2ac7@googlegroups.com>
 <54f1685d-1d2d-44b5-869e-a510569ba9d1@googlegroups.com>
 <lf5a87ln8k9.fsf@ling.helsinki.fi>
 <1d352948-9029-4b86-b2f1-2b52608109ea@googlegroups.com>
 <el7qd0Fpai9U1@mid.individual.net>
Message-ID: <2759e6e0-ad95-466c-81f6-556133620999@googlegroups.com>

On Thursday, 13 April 2017 00:09:35 UTC+1, Gregory Ewing  wrote:
> bart4858 at gmail.com wrote:
> 
> > But the language can also play a part in not allowing certain things to be
> > expressed naturally. So the for-loop in the example has to have a
> > control-variable even if it's not referenced.
> 
> If the compiler can recognise when code is "stupid", it's
> probably capable of doing something more intelligent than
> just rejecting it outright.
> 
> E.g. it could notice that a loop variable wasn't used
> anywhere in the function and optimise it out. And it could
> recognise x += 1 and emit an ADD_ONE bytecode for it.
> Etc.

Maybe. (Although I think Python would have difficulty in turning x+=1 into a single opcode, if using normal object references and a shared object model.)

But I wouldn't be happy about a language deciding my code is 'stupid'. I might for example have an N-times loop containing x+=1 because I want to know how long it takes to execute x+=1 N times. (This is a common problem with benchmarking code actually, as you can end up measuring how long it takes /not/ to do something instead of doing it!)

Anyway that loop example (I think it was Steve's) was a simple illustration. It will usually be harder to figure out if a bit of code is rational.

Even with x+=1, isn't it possible to override the + or += operation with user code? Code which change the handling method at each iteration. This is dynamism making a rod for its own back. 99.99...% of the time that won't happen, but...


-- 
bartc


From mikhailwas at gmail.com  Wed Apr 12 19:42:01 2017
From: mikhailwas at gmail.com (Mikhail V)
Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2017 01:42:01 +0200
Subject: "Goto" statement in Python
Message-ID: <CAE6NSRC=M1E+1_rX6T2Fa-zgUarwMvAn91W2SyNkodGhj6RKhQ@mail.gmail.com>

On 12 April 2017 at 02:44, Nathan Ernst <nathan.ernst at gmail.com> wrote:
> goto is a misunderstood and much misaligned creature. It is a very useful
> feature, but like nearly any programming construct can be abused.
>
> Constructs like 'break', 'continue' or 'next' in languages like Python or
> C/C++ are goto's with implied labels.
>
> As Mikhail said, goto's can be great to break out of nested loops (only a
> handful of languages support named 'breaks').
>
> So, instead of:
> bool found = false;
> for (int i = 0; i = ...; ++i)
> {
>  for (int h = 0; h = ...; ++h)
>  {
>    if (some_condition)
>      found = true;
>  }
>  if (found) break;
> }
>
> You can have:
>
> for (int i = 0; i = ...; ++i)
> {
>  for (int h = 0; h = ...; ++h)
>  {
>    if (some_condition)
>      goto found;
>  }
> }
> // not found
>
> found:
> // handle found
>
> The second is better for a number of reasons: it's clearer. It has fewer
> variables (smaller stack), it has fewer branches (better for the CPU's
> branch prediction), and it has fewer instructions (better for CPU
> instruction cache).  This is a trivial, contrived example, but I've seen
> more than 4x nested loops using an exit flag like this (at every level of
> the loops) that could have been replaced with a lot less code.
>
> People need to stop drinking "X is considered harmful." Even Dijkstra later
> lamented that his "Goto considered harmful" paper was misinterpreted and
> misrepresented as advocating that goto should never be used.
>
> Additionally, I'd recommend everyone read '"Considered Harmful" Essays
> Considered Harmful': http://meyerweb.com/eric/comment/chech.html
>
> Regards,
> Nate
>



Here are recent related discussions about exiting from
nested loops (at least seems to be so):
https://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-ideas/2017-March/044932.html
https://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-ideas/2017-March/045049.html

I personally have difficulties to fully understand some
of the examples given in those proposals, namely
that proposals were thought for other(?) purposes also,
not only breaking nested loops.

At a first glance it seems to me that "goto" would solve
the nested breaking problem and in a nice flexible way.
(correct  me if I am wrong, probably I'm missing something)

So besides nested loops, in my practice I had occasions
when I would want to use "goto".
It would be fair to say that those occasions are not so common,
but I'll try to give an example. Say, there is some
pure procedural processing for some simple task
and I don't want to make the script heavy and just
care for the clarity:

===========
Log = ""
S = "lorem ipsum"

for s in S:
    if s == "i" :
        message = "found on stage 1"
        goto .output

S = S + " hello world"
for s in S:
    if s == "d" :
        message = "found on stage 2"
        goto .output

print "not found"
print "S = ", S
goto .exit

.output
print message
Log = Log + message

.exit:
print "exiting"
=============

For me it looks clear and I'd say easy to comprehend,
Main critic would be obviously that it is not
a good, *scalable application*, but quite often I don't
even have this in mind, and just want to express a
step-by-step direct instructions.
In this case sticking any "def():.." inside the script
does not make any sense for me. Simplicity here
reflects the fact that this code represents
exactly what I want the computer to do.

And a working variant of this would be like:

===========
Log = ""
found = False
Error = False
S = "lorem ipsum"

if not found:
    for s in S:
        if s == "i" :
            message = "found on stage 1"
            found = True

if not found:
    S = S + " hello world"
    for s in S:
        if s == "d" :
            message = "found on stage 2"
            found = True

if not found:
    Error = True
    print "Error : not found"
    print "S = ", S


if not Error:
    print message
    Log = Log + message

print "exiting"
==============

This is working code, but I would say there is
a lot extra indentation, and if I don't care about
application scalability, those are just adding noise
and I it needs some boolean flags.

I am not sure what examples to add here ...
it seems to me that e.g. if I would use Python
for modelling "pipeline" algorithms
this could be helpful also.

Now if I count in the nested loops breaking problematic,
seems that there is at least a prerequisite for existence of "goto".
Am I right?


Mikhail


From python at deborahswanson.net  Wed Apr 12 20:04:30 2017
From: python at deborahswanson.net (Deborah Swanson)
Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2017 17:04:30 -0700
Subject: Namedtuples: some unexpected inconveniences
In-Reply-To: <00bf01d2b3e4$99b6b8d0$27b23dae@sambora>
Message-ID: <00cf01d2b3e9$8638b1a0$27b23dae@sambora>

Deborah Swanson wrote, on Wednesday, April 12, 2017 4:29 PM
> 
> Peter Otten wrote, on Wednesday, April 12, 2017 3:15 PM
> > 
> > >> Indeed you cannot change the namedtuple's attributes. Like the
> > >> "normal" tuple it is designed to be immutable. If you want
changes in 
> > >> one list (the group) to appear in another (the original records)
you 
> > >> need a mutable data type.
> > > 
> > > Sadly, that does seem to be the correct conclusion here.
> > 
> > Think hard if you really need the original list.
> 
> It's possible you might transform the namedtuple into a 
> mutable type, and I didn't try that. But it seems like the 
> group-by defaultdict strategy would have to have a 
> significant performance edge to be worth it and you wouldn't 
> have any of the namedtuple properties to work with after the 
> transformation. I also ran into some trouble with your 
> algorithm that follows making the defaultdict, and I'm not 
> sure what value there would be in hashing through that. 
> Though I'm certainly willing to if you are.
> 
> It worked to simply stay with the original list of 
> namedtuples to begin with.
> 
> I remain grateful for your introduction to the collections 
> module. What a neat little package of tools!

I know it's quick for this double-take, but it occurs to me that
transforming to a mutable type isn't a performance evaluation at all.
Filling in missing values is the last step before outputting the
processed list, so it might not be necessary to work with namedtuples at
that point.

The algorithm to fill in the missing values for each group (which would
no longer be namedtuples) in the defaultdict is something I'm back at
the drawing board for. But it shouldn't be too hard. Haha, we'll see!



From rgaddi at highlandtechnology.invalid  Wed Apr 12 20:17:37 2017
From: rgaddi at highlandtechnology.invalid (Rob Gaddi)
Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2017 17:17:37 -0700
Subject: "Goto" statement in Python
In-Reply-To: <mailman.110.1492041148.2951.python-list@python.org>
References: <CAE6NSRC=M1E+1_rX6T2Fa-zgUarwMvAn91W2SyNkodGhj6RKhQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.110.1492041148.2951.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <ocmfta$9j1$1@dont-email.me>

On 04/12/2017 04:42 PM, Mikhail V wrote:
> On 12 April 2017 at 02:44, Nathan Ernst <nathan.ernst at gmail.com> wrote:
>> goto is a misunderstood and much misaligned creature. It is a very useful
>> feature, but like nearly any programming construct can be abused.
>>
>> Constructs like 'break', 'continue' or 'next' in languages like Python or
>> C/C++ are goto's with implied labels.
>>
>> As Mikhail said, goto's can be great to break out of nested loops (only a
>> handful of languages support named 'breaks').
>>
>> So, instead of:
>> bool found = false;
>> for (int i = 0; i = ...; ++i)
>> {
>>  for (int h = 0; h = ...; ++h)
>>  {
>>    if (some_condition)
>>      found = true;
>>  }
>>  if (found) break;
>> }
>>
>> You can have:
>>
>> for (int i = 0; i = ...; ++i)
>> {
>>  for (int h = 0; h = ...; ++h)
>>  {
>>    if (some_condition)
>>      goto found;
>>  }
>> }
>> // not found
>>
>> found:
>> // handle found
>>
>> The second is better for a number of reasons: it's clearer. It has fewer
>> variables (smaller stack), it has fewer branches (better for the CPU's
>> branch prediction), and it has fewer instructions (better for CPU
>> instruction cache).  This is a trivial, contrived example, but I've seen
>> more than 4x nested loops using an exit flag like this (at every level of
>> the loops) that could have been replaced with a lot less code.
>>
>> People need to stop drinking "X is considered harmful." Even Dijkstra later
>> lamented that his "Goto considered harmful" paper was misinterpreted and
>> misrepresented as advocating that goto should never be used.
>>
>> Additionally, I'd recommend everyone read '"Considered Harmful" Essays
>> Considered Harmful': http://meyerweb.com/eric/comment/chech.html
>>
>> Regards,
>> Nate
>>
>
>
>
> Here are recent related discussions about exiting from
> nested loops (at least seems to be so):
> https://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-ideas/2017-March/044932.html
> https://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-ideas/2017-March/045049.html
>
> I personally have difficulties to fully understand some
> of the examples given in those proposals, namely
> that proposals were thought for other(?) purposes also,
> not only breaking nested loops.
>
> At a first glance it seems to me that "goto" would solve
> the nested breaking problem and in a nice flexible way.
> (correct  me if I am wrong, probably I'm missing something)
>
> So besides nested loops, in my practice I had occasions
> when I would want to use "goto".
> It would be fair to say that those occasions are not so common,
> but I'll try to give an example. Say, there is some
> pure procedural processing for some simple task
> and I don't want to make the script heavy and just
> care for the clarity:
>
> ===========
> Log = ""
> S = "lorem ipsum"
>
> for s in S:
>     if s == "i" :
>         message = "found on stage 1"
>         goto .output
>
> S = S + " hello world"
> for s in S:
>     if s == "d" :
>         message = "found on stage 2"
>         goto .output
>
> print "not found"
> print "S = ", S
> goto .exit
>
> .output
> print message
> Log = Log + message
>
> .exit:
> print "exiting"
> =============
>
> For me it looks clear and I'd say easy to comprehend,
> Main critic would be obviously that it is not
> a good, *scalable application*, but quite often I don't
> even have this in mind, and just want to express a
> step-by-step direct instructions.
> In this case sticking any "def():.." inside the script
> does not make any sense for me. Simplicity here
> reflects the fact that this code represents
> exactly what I want the computer to do.
>
> And a working variant of this would be like:
>
> ===========
> Log = ""
> found = False
> Error = False
> S = "lorem ipsum"
>
> if not found:
>     for s in S:
>         if s == "i" :
>             message = "found on stage 1"
>             found = True
>
> if not found:
>     S = S + " hello world"
>     for s in S:
>         if s == "d" :
>             message = "found on stage 2"
>             found = True
>
> if not found:
>     Error = True
>     print "Error : not found"
>     print "S = ", S
>
>
> if not Error:
>     print message
>     Log = Log + message
>
> print "exiting"
> ==============
>
> This is working code, but I would say there is
> a lot extra indentation, and if I don't care about
> application scalability, those are just adding noise
> and I it needs some boolean flags.
>
> I am not sure what examples to add here ...
> it seems to me that e.g. if I would use Python
> for modelling "pipeline" algorithms
> this could be helpful also.
>
> Now if I count in the nested loops breaking problematic,
> seems that there is at least a prerequisite for existence of "goto".
> Am I right?
>
>
> Mikhail
>

def finder:
   for s in S:
     if s == 'i':
       return 'found on stage 1'

   S = S + ' hello world'
   for s in S:
     if s == 'd':
       return 'found on stage 2'

   raise ValueError('not found; S=' + S)

try:
   message = finder()
   print(message)
   log += message
except ValueError as e:
   print(e)


-- 
Rob Gaddi, Highland Technology -- www.highlandtechnology.com
Email address domain is currently out of order.  See above to fix.


From python at lucidity.plus.com  Wed Apr 12 20:39:19 2017
From: python at lucidity.plus.com (Erik)
Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2017 01:39:19 +0100
Subject: Merging multiple sorted sequences.
In-Reply-To: <b8407f4c-5b51-6dfc-bcc1-6dc154a4fac4@lucidity.plus.com>
References: <d99cc694-2167-3d83-38ee-b2df61c0e6b5@lucidity.plus.com>
 <CALwzidntcMubU7EGmFgZZV7yRoZMhY4R4Pmbbmh0aTYnzNLzXg@mail.gmail.com>
 <b8407f4c-5b51-6dfc-bcc1-6dc154a4fac4@lucidity.plus.com>
Message-ID: <7e609d76-86ae-50c4-aac8-70683d94f93e@lucidity.plus.com>

Hi Ian,

On 13/04/17 00:09, Erik wrote:
> On 12/04/17 23:44, Ian Kelly wrote:
>> I would
>> just use "lowest = min(items, key=itemgetter(0))".
>
> I had it in my head for some reason
> that min() would return the smallest key, not the object (and hence I
> wouldn't be able to know which sequence object to get the next value
> from - sorting means it's always at index 0).

Actually, no, that wasn't my issue. It was that I don't know the index 
of the source to 'del'ete from the list when it has exhausted.

The code always deletes item 0 and my test sequences are such that they 
happen to exhaust in first to last order, so that works by accident. If 
you swap the definitions of the 'a', 'b', and 'c' test data, then it all 
goes horribly wrong with the "min()" change.

However, I can use the 'remove' method on the items list to delete that 
element instead. It's going to do a linear search of the list to find 
the correct element, but I expect the number of sources to be trivially 
small compared to the amount of data in each, so for my specific case 
that should be OK.

Thanks, E.


From jfong at ms4.hinet.net  Wed Apr 12 21:01:01 2017
From: jfong at ms4.hinet.net (jfong at ms4.hinet.net)
Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2017 18:01:01 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: What is the difference between x[:]=y and x=y[:]?
In-Reply-To: <mailman.86.1491999201.2951.python-list@python.org>
References: <aa829ad5-533a-4b39-ad39-1bb08ee43116@googlegroups.com>
 <ockp6r$oif$1@blaine.gmane.org>
 <mailman.79.1491986473.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <045c9994-c4c4-41ee-9f63-9e834e80d574@googlegroups.com>
 <ocl5kg$ce$1@blaine.gmane.org>
 <mailman.86.1491999201.2951.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <12eb47a3-30d4-4ea9-9049-62a555471f34@googlegroups.com>

Peter Otten at 2017/4/12 UTC+8 PM 8:13:53 wrote:
> I should add that you can write
> 
> >>>> lr = [[1], [0]]
> >>>> lx = []
> >>>> for i in range(len(lr)):
> > ...     lx = lr[i][:]
> > ...     lx.append(0)
> > ...     lr[i].append(1)
> > ...     lr.append(lx)
> > ...
> >>>> lr
> >[[1, 1], [0, 1], [1, 0], [0, 0]]
> > 
> 
> idiomatially as
> 
> >>> lr = [[1], [0]]
> >>> [inner + tail for tail in [[1], [0]] for inner in lr]
> [[1, 1], [0, 1], [1, 0], [0, 0]]
> 
> Note that there is a difference -- the resulting list does not share any 
> lists with the original `lr` as concatenating two lists produces a new one:
> 
> >>> a = [1]
> >>> b = [2]
> >>> c = a + b
> >>> a is c
> False
> >>> b is c
> False

I was a little embarrassed when looking at my codes. It may take me a long time to get used to thinking in the "Pythonic" way:-( But definitely I have learned much from this forum:-)


From ian.stegner at gmail.com  Wed Apr 12 21:59:00 2017
From: ian.stegner at gmail.com (ian.stegner at gmail.com)
Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2017 18:59:00 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Python Command Line Arguments
Message-ID: <f1a2d3e9-11ed-4334-bdb1-9957ba19781b@googlegroups.com>

I have this code which I got from https://www.tutorialspoint.com/python/python_command_line_arguments.htm The example works fine but when I modify it to what I need, it only half works. The problem is the try/except. If you don't specify an input/output, they are blank at the end but it shouldn't be.


import getopt
import sys

def main(argv):
   inputfile = ''
   outputfile = ''
   try:
      opts, args = getopt.getopt(argv,"hi:o:",["ifile=","ofile="])
   except getopt.GetoptError:
      inputfile = 'Input'
      outputfile = 'Output'
   if inputfile == '':
      for opt, arg in opts:
         if opt == '-h':
            print ('Usage: Encrypt.py -i <input file> -o <output file>')
            sys.exit()
         elif opt in ("-i", "--ifile"):
            inputfile = arg
         elif opt in ("-o", "--ofile"):
            outputfile = arg
   else:
      ''

   print 'In: ' + inputfile
   print 'Out: ' + outputfile

if __name__ == "__main__":
   main(sys.argv[1:])


From lauren.sophia1998 at gmail.com  Wed Apr 12 22:13:19 2017
From: lauren.sophia1998 at gmail.com (Lauren Fugate)
Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2017 19:13:19 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: homework confusion
Message-ID: <160ad06f-3ae8-4587-9a9a-dd92e5c8a141@googlegroups.com>

Hello! So I have a homework assignment that I can't seem to understand. The problems are talking about classes and subclasses. My issue is that the examples use objects as arguments and I don't know how to make that happen without getting a name error. The question is:

Create a subclass of Openable called Lockable for representing physical objects that can be unlocked and opened. Remember to make sure that Lockable is a subclass of Openable. In addition to the methods and attributes it automatically inherits from Openable and Thing, it should have:
A public boolean attribute called is_locked that represents whether or not the object is locked.
A public attribute called key which is a Thing object that represents the item that can be used as akey to unlock the Lockable object.
An overridden constructor that takes two strings (the name and the location), a Thing (the key), and two optional boolean values (first, whether the object starts off open and second, whether it starts out locked). If neither of the optional boolean values are given, then the object should default to being closed but not locked. If only the first of the optional arguments (the starting "openness" state) is given, then the object should start out unlocked.
Your version of .__init__() for Lockable must use the version of .__init__() from the superclass Openable to handle the name, location, and "openness" state. Setting the is_locked and key attributes are the only ones you need to handle separately.
So you should be able to create Lockable objects with commands* like Lockable("front door", "in the foyer", house_key, False, True) (returning an object that starts out closed and locked), or Lockable("diary", "under Sam's bed", tiny_key, True) (returning an object that starts out open and unlocked), or Lockable("ancient treasure chest", "at the bottom of the sea", rusty_key) (returning an object that starts out closed and unlocked).
*Assuming that the variables house_key, tiny_key, and rusty_key already exist and refer to instances of Things.

My code is:
class Thing:
    """represents physical objects in a game

    attributes: name(str), location(str)"""
    def __init__(self, name, location):
        """creates a Thing with a name and location

        str, str"""
        self.name = name
        self.location = location
    def __repr__(self):
        """returns the Thing as a string that could be used to create a Thing

        None-> str"""
        return "Thing(" + self.name + ", " + self.location + ")"
    def description(self):
        """returnd the Thing along with its name and location in a string

        None -> str"""
        return "The " + repr(self.name) + " is " + repr(self.location) + "."
    
class Openable(Thing):
    """representing the Things that can be opened

    attributes: name(str), location(str), is_open(str)"""
    def __init__(self, name, location, is_open = False):
        """creates a Thing with a name and location

        str, str"""
        Thing.__init__(self, name, location)
        self.is_open = is_open
    def __repr__(self):
        """returns the Thing as a string that could be used to create an Openable

        None-> str"""
        return "Openable('" + self.name + "', '" + self.location + "', '" + str(self.is_open) + "')"
    def description(self):
        """returnd the Thing along with its name and location and whether it is open in a string

        None -> str"""
        if self.is_open == True:
            opened = "is open"
        else:
            opened = "is closed"
        return "The " + self.name + self.location + " is " + opened + "."
    def try_open(self):
        """tries to open the Openable and returns the result

        None -> bool"""
        if self.is_open == True:
            return False
        if self.is_open == False:
            self.is_open = True
            return True

class Lockable(Openable):
    """respresents the Openable Things that are Lockable

    attributes: name(str), location(str), is_open(str), is_locked(str), key(str)"""
    def __init__(self, name, location, key, is_open = False, is_locked = False):
        """creates a Thing with a name and location

        str, str"""
        Openable.__init__(self, name, location, is_open = False)
        self.is_locked = is_locked
    def __repr__(self):
        """returns the Thing as a string that could be used to create an Lockable

        None-> str"""
        return "Lockable('" + self.name + "', '" + self.location + "', '" + str(self.is_open) + "', '" + str(self.is_locked) + "')"
    def description(self):
        """returnd the Thing along with its name and location and whether it is open in a string and whether it is locked

        None -> str"""
        if self.is_open == True:
            opened = "is open"
            return "The " + self.name + self.location + " is " + opened + "."
        elif self.is_open == Flase:
            opened = "is closed"
            if self.is_locked == True:
                locked = "is locked"
                return "The " + self.name + self.location + " is " + locked + "."
            else:
                locked = "is unlocked"
        return "The " + self.name + self.location + " is " + opened + " but " + locked + "."

The example command is: Lockable("diary", "under Sam's bed", tiny_key, True)

And I keep getting a NameError: tiny_key is not defined. 

What do I do?


From jsf80238 at gmail.com  Wed Apr 12 22:33:04 2017
From: jsf80238 at gmail.com (Jason Friedman)
Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2017 20:33:04 -0600
Subject: Python Command Line Arguments
In-Reply-To: <f1a2d3e9-11ed-4334-bdb1-9957ba19781b@googlegroups.com>
References: <f1a2d3e9-11ed-4334-bdb1-9957ba19781b@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <CANy1k1hnHM42uu+M0OQhdinJkNC9MXxBwKF3S01Pd64HhGmy3w@mail.gmail.com>

>
> I have this code which I got from https://www.tutorialspoint.
> com/python/python_command_line_arguments.htm The example works fine but
> when I modify it to what I need, it only half works. The problem is the
> try/except. If you don't specify an input/output, they are blank at the end
> but it shouldn't be.
>
> import getopt
> import sys
>

Hello Ian,
I am guessing you are wanting to parse command-line arguments rather than
particularly wanting to use the getopt module.
If I am correct you might want to spend your time instead learning the
argparse module:
https://docs.python.org/3/library/argparse.html
https://docs.python.org/3/howto/argparse.html


From tjreedy at udel.edu  Wed Apr 12 22:34:35 2017
From: tjreedy at udel.edu (Terry Reedy)
Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2017 22:34:35 -0400
Subject: Merging multiple sorted sequences.
In-Reply-To: <1815e8aa-473d-db5d-019a-d4440f61a8f8@lucidity.plus.com>
References: <d99cc694-2167-3d83-38ee-b2df61c0e6b5@lucidity.plus.com>
 <ocmagr$43e$1@blaine.gmane.org>
 <1815e8aa-473d-db5d-019a-d4440f61a8f8@lucidity.plus.com>
Message-ID: <ocmo3l$l38$1@blaine.gmane.org>

On 4/12/2017 7:15 PM, Erik wrote:
> Hi Peter,
>
> On 12/04/17 23:42, Peter Otten wrote:
>> Erik wrote:
>>
>>> I need to be able to lazily merge a variable number of already-sorted(*)
>>> variable-length sequences into a single sorted sequence.
>>
>> https://docs.python.org/dev/library/heapq.html#heapq.merge
>
> AFAICT (looking at the Python 3.5 heapq implementation, albeit very
> briefly), it seems like that is a greedy algorithm. Am I missing something?

Yes.  Read the source to see what it does and why one or more inputs 
could be infinite iterators.  Hint: it does *not* heapify everything at 
once.

--
Terry Jan Reedy



From python at mrabarnett.plus.com  Wed Apr 12 22:38:24 2017
From: python at mrabarnett.plus.com (MRAB)
Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2017 03:38:24 +0100
Subject: Python Command Line Arguments
In-Reply-To: <f1a2d3e9-11ed-4334-bdb1-9957ba19781b@googlegroups.com>
References: <f1a2d3e9-11ed-4334-bdb1-9957ba19781b@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <30b37030-7b5d-ba6a-f926-c748077a4f86@mrabarnett.plus.com>

On 2017-04-13 02:59, ian.stegner at gmail.com wrote:
> I have this code which I got from https://www.tutorialspoint.com/python/python_command_line_arguments.htm The example works fine but when I modify it to what I need, it only half works. The problem is the try/except. If you don't specify an input/output, they are blank at the end but it shouldn't be.
> 
> 
> import getopt
> import sys
> 
> def main(argv):
>     inputfile = ''
>     outputfile = ''
>     try:
>        opts, args = getopt.getopt(argv,"hi:o:",["ifile=","ofile="])
>     except getopt.GetoptError:
>        inputfile = 'Input'
>        outputfile = 'Output'
>     if inputfile == '':
>        for opt, arg in opts:
>           if opt == '-h':
>              print ('Usage: Encrypt.py -i <input file> -o <output file>')
>              sys.exit()
>           elif opt in ("-i", "--ifile"):
>              inputfile = arg
>           elif opt in ("-o", "--ofile"):
>              outputfile = arg
>     else:
>        ''
> 
>     print 'In: ' + inputfile
>     print 'Out: ' + outputfile
> 
> if __name__ == "__main__":
>     main(sys.argv[1:])
> 
You'll get the GetoptError exception if an option that requires an 
argument doesn't have one. That's not the same as omitting the option 
entirely.

For example:

     # No -i option.
     foo

     # Option -i present but without its required argument.
     foo -i


From jsf80238 at gmail.com  Wed Apr 12 22:39:49 2017
From: jsf80238 at gmail.com (Jason Friedman)
Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2017 20:39:49 -0600
Subject: Moderating the list [was: Python and the need for speed]
In-Reply-To: <9fac840a-165f-789a-6631-ed913a1cdcf6@timgolden.me.uk>
References: <768f9a44-5d90-4756-8a99-821253a491f8@googlegroups.com>
 <CAPTjJmrMWpzGd9Lf_sa-mscvqezY01U5kDCPRh07Nuivvxo8yg@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.5.1491710256.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <58e9e519$0$1528$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <27652c6d-2cb4-4f0c-9400-6aa2a3f9f855@googlegroups.com>
 <CAPTjJmq4xAt3rkONttzhqZ0byKhjrX=dHmDZn60jteOmkbia1w@mail.gmail.com>
 <9bdec2c0-6050-4b55-e4a0-96fcc9af6899@lucidity.plus.com>
 <CAPTjJmr4q=annJt0QpnRx+DW8=wpkLWTfumSHOC1BnsH5pqBdA@mail.gmail.com>
 <e63e4b03-2ecc-026b-3362-74c4a727394e@timgolden.me.uk>
 <mailman.44.1491899163.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <b37b1e07-9f1e-437c-9019-ed81ca745386@googlegroups.com>
 <58ecdae8$0$1602$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <ee2dd6be-82c7-454b-9c6e-2d3e79b328ac@googlegroups.com>
 <9fac840a-165f-789a-6631-ed913a1cdcf6@timgolden.me.uk>
Message-ID: <CANy1k1jhnBiFhdqQyPqdkKxbPSYMNBGVrsWXvi7T9fjUpOHEkA@mail.gmail.com>

>
> However, it's simply a technical fact: the thing which we moderate is the
>> mailing list. We can control which posts make it through from the newsgroup
>> by blocking them at the gateway. But the posts will continue to appear on
>> comp.lang.python which is, as the description says, unmoderated.
>>
>
> TJG


Thank you, Tim and Ethan and the other moderators, for performing that
function.
It makes the reading experience more pleasant for me.


From jsf80238 at gmail.com  Wed Apr 12 22:47:12 2017
From: jsf80238 at gmail.com (Jason Friedman)
Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2017 20:47:12 -0600
Subject: homework confusion
In-Reply-To: <160ad06f-3ae8-4587-9a9a-dd92e5c8a141@googlegroups.com>
References: <160ad06f-3ae8-4587-9a9a-dd92e5c8a141@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <CANy1k1ie3hLwMuHQe-bce27xHqKsC=Fv4U23pFrFWzLBnot3ng@mail.gmail.com>

>
> The example command is: Lockable("diary", "under Sam's bed", tiny_key,
> True)
>
> And I keep getting a NameError: tiny_key is not defined.
>
> What do I do?
>

Without knowing what your professor intends this is a guess:  define
tiny_key.  For example

tiny_key = "some string"
thing = Lockable("diary", "under Sam's bed", tiny_key, True)

or

tiny_key = 1234
thing = Lockable("diary", "under Sam's bed", tiny_key, True)

Maybe in the next assignment the professor will ask you to collect by key
the Lockables that you construct.


From python at mrabarnett.plus.com  Wed Apr 12 22:47:12 2017
From: python at mrabarnett.plus.com (MRAB)
Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2017 03:47:12 +0100
Subject: homework confusion
In-Reply-To: <160ad06f-3ae8-4587-9a9a-dd92e5c8a141@googlegroups.com>
References: <160ad06f-3ae8-4587-9a9a-dd92e5c8a141@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <bb981f72-72a0-f7f6-f0ea-699b669abfbb@mrabarnett.plus.com>

On 2017-04-13 03:13, Lauren Fugate wrote:
[snip]

Read the last 2 paragraphs again:

""So you should be able to create Lockable objects with commands* like 
Lockable("front door", "in the foyer", house_key, False, True) 
(returning an object that starts out closed and locked), or 
Lockable("diary", "under Sam's bed", tiny_key, True) (returning an 
object that starts out open and unlocked), or Lockable("ancient treasure 
chest", "at the bottom of the sea", rusty_key) (returning an object that 
starts out closed and unlocked).
*Assuming that the variables house_key, tiny_key, and rusty_key already 
exist and refer to instances of Things.
"""

It gives """Lockable("diary", "under Sam's bed", tiny_key, True)""" as 
an _example_ of how it would be used.

The final sentence is also important.

Try defining 'tiny_key' before testing the example.


From ian.stegner at gmail.com  Wed Apr 12 23:00:34 2017
From: ian.stegner at gmail.com (ian.stegner at gmail.com)
Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2017 20:00:34 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Python Command Line Arguments
In-Reply-To: <mailman.115.1492051114.2951.python-list@python.org>
References: <f1a2d3e9-11ed-4334-bdb1-9957ba19781b@googlegroups.com>
 <30b37030-7b5d-ba6a-f926-c748077a4f86@mrabarnett.plus.com>
 <mailman.115.1492051114.2951.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <b1cf5606-c4fe-4765-9cd1-e3029cfad120@googlegroups.com>

On Thursday, April 13, 2017 at 12:38:48 PM UTC+10, MRAB wrote:
> On 2017-04-13 02:59, ian.stegner at gmail.com wrote:
> > I have this code which I got from https://www.tutorialspoint.com/python/python_command_line_arguments.htm The example works fine but when I modify it to what I need, it only half works. The problem is the try/except. If you don't specify an input/output, they are blank at the end but it shouldn't be.
> > 
> > 
> > import getopt
> > import sys
> > 
> > def main(argv):
> >     inputfile = ''
> >     outputfile = ''
> >     try:
> >        opts, args = getopt.getopt(argv,"hi:o:",["ifile=","ofile="])
> >     except getopt.GetoptError:
> >        inputfile = 'Input'
> >        outputfile = 'Output'
> >     if inputfile == '':
> >        for opt, arg in opts:
> >           if opt == '-h':
> >              print ('Usage: Encrypt.py -i <input file> -o <output file>')
> >              sys.exit()
> >           elif opt in ("-i", "--ifile"):
> >              inputfile = arg
> >           elif opt in ("-o", "--ofile"):
> >              outputfile = arg
> >     else:
> >        ''
> > 
> >     print 'In: ' + inputfile
> >     print 'Out: ' + outputfile
> > 
> > if __name__ == "__main__":
> >     main(sys.argv[1:])
> > 
> You'll get the GetoptError exception if an option that requires an 
> argument doesn't have one. That's not the same as omitting the option 
> entirely.
> 
> For example:
> 
>      # No -i option.
>      foo
> 
>      # Option -i present but without its required argument.
>      foo -i

WOW. Thanks for that.


From wrw at mac.com  Thu Apr 13 00:04:59 2017
From: wrw at mac.com (William Ray Wing)
Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2017 00:04:59 -0400
Subject: closing image automatically  in for loop , python
In-Reply-To: <8e5d24d1-1453-4526-88d5-790702c00f1c@googlegroups.com>
References: <8e5d24d1-1453-4526-88d5-790702c00f1c@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <F4742057-2239-4E57-97F6-D59403E86945@mac.com>


> On Apr 12, 2017, at 7:18 AM, Masoud Afshari <mafshari44 at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> Dear all
> 
> I have several *.sfd files which created by a simulation code. I wrote a program containing a for Loop which reads  each time one .sfd file  and plot the requested Parameters. I have two request:
> 
> 1- my Problem is that for Showing successive Images in for Loop I have to Close the Image MANAULLY each time to read next sdf file. can anyone please tell me which command do I have to use so the code Close the Images automatically.
> 

I normally run matplolib in interactive mode, so this may not be quite correct, BUT I think you only need to add a call to:

close()

After your call to plt.show()

Bill


> 2- more over, can anyone please tell me how can I create a movie with this code.
> 
> in the following you can see my code
> 
> 
> #####################
> # in this program, PYTHON reads the reduced files and plot the variables .
> ?
> ?
> import sys 
> import sdf
> import numpy as np
> import matplotlib.pyplot as plt 
> from matplotlib.font_manager import FontProperties
> fp = FontProperties('Symbola')
> ?
> ##################### information from EPOCH input.deck
> nx,ny= 1200, 1600
> ?
> xmin=-100e-6
> xmax = 50e-6
> ymin = -100e-6
> ymax = 100e-6
> ?
> X =np.linspace(xmin,xmax,nx) #Generate linearly spaced vector. The spacing between the points is (x2-x1)/(n-1).
> Y =np.linspace(ymin,ymax,ny)
> ?
> #################
> for n in range(0,27):
> nstr = str(n)#.zfill(4)
> #print nstr
> ?
> ######
> fig = plt.figure() #plot several figures simultaneously 
> 
> ########..... reading Ex
> ?
> filename ="Ex_resample" +'_sdf_'+ str(n)+'.dat'
> with open(filename, 'rb') as f: #read binary file
> data = np.fromfile(f, dtype='float64', count=nx*ny) #float64 for Double precision float numbers
> Ex = np.reshape(data, [ny, nx], order='F')
> #print Ex.max()
> ?
> #Display image with scaled colors:
> plt.subplot(222)
> fig1=plt.imshow(Ex, extent=[X.min()*1e6, X.max()*1e6, Y.min()*1e6, Y.max()*1e6], vmin=0, vmax=2e12, cmap='brg', aspect='auto') #cmap='jet', 'nipy_spectral','hot','gist_ncar'
> #plt.suptitle('Ex')
> plt.title('sdf '+ str(n)+ '; Time= ' +str(n*50)+ 'ps',color='green', fontsize=15)
> plt.xlabel('x($\mu$m)')
> plt.ylabel('y($\mu$m)')
> plt.text(40,80,'Ex',color='red', fontsize=15)
> plt.colorbar()
> plt.show()
> #fig.savefig('test.jpg')
> sys.exit()
> -- 
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list


From no.email at nospam.invalid  Thu Apr 13 00:28:48 2017
From: no.email at nospam.invalid (Paul Rubin)
Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2017 21:28:48 -0700
Subject: Python and the need for speed
References: <768f9a44-5d90-4756-8a99-821253a491f8@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.5.1491710256.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <58e9e519$0$1528$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <mailman.9.1491728745.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <58ec9192$0$1602$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <oci97l$10u4$1@gioia.aioe.org>
 <58eceea2$0$1615$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <ocks9s$10uq$1@gioia.aioe.org>
Message-ID: <87mvblhqwv.fsf@nightsong.com>

Brecht Machiels <brecht__gmane at mos6581.org> writes:
> However, rinohtype is located in a very different niche and it would
> greatly benefit a lot from a speed boost. Rendering the Sphinx
> documentation (311 pages) takes almost 10 minutes on my i7

Yikes...

> As for moving to a compiled language (Nim or Rust would be interesting
> choices, IMO), it doesn't make much sense.

Have you tried PyPy?  Thought about Lisp?  Lisp is easily extensible and
goes well with the DSL idea.  Or if most of the time is used in some hot
loop, maybe a small C extension is the simplest fix.


From no.email at nospam.invalid  Thu Apr 13 00:31:40 2017
From: no.email at nospam.invalid (Paul Rubin)
Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2017 21:31:40 -0700
Subject: Python and the need for speed
References: <768f9a44-5d90-4756-8a99-821253a491f8@googlegroups.com>
 <CAPTjJmrMWpzGd9Lf_sa-mscvqezY01U5kDCPRh07Nuivvxo8yg@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.5.1491710256.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <58e9e519$0$1528$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <CAPTjJmq4bCoXWryo5Jahh4he1_GP5LGjyKtJ1Mxs_XkNggi-6w@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.9.1491728745.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <58ec9192$0$1602$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <87a87mn8rc.fsf@nightsong.com>
 <58ed8c02$0$1620$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <069ed317-abab-4980-a06c-6eafdc029653@googlegroups.com>
 <CAPTjJmrHEkTNu8X+ztUgRpLtTrY2tf0RMFF2wtvy2+Ko3bfkmA@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.73.1491965716.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <87r30yjlfd.fsf@nightsong.com> <878tn6djq6.fsf@elektro.pacujo.net>
Message-ID: <87inm9hqs3.fsf@nightsong.com>

Marko Rauhamaa <marko at pacujo.net> writes:
> Traditionally, disk access in Linux has been considered nonblocking.
> There is AIO, but that hasn't been used much. 

AIO is asynchronous but it's for dealing with already-opened files.
There doesn't seem to be a way to asynchronously OPEN a file.

> I believe the lack of asynchronous disk I/O is related to the grand
> Solaris idea which Linux adopted: all memory is on a disk and RAM is
> merely a cache.

And I thought Solaris's heritage involved NFS, with its notorious
infinite hard hangs if something happened on the server end.

> As swapping is no longer considered normal on modern computers, the
> memory-disk duality doesn't seem all that practical anymore. Rather,
> you'd like to treat the disk analogously to network access and keep RAM
> access separate.

Yep.  But opening disk files that way seems to require threads or extra
processes.


From no.email at nospam.invalid  Thu Apr 13 00:37:52 2017
From: no.email at nospam.invalid (Paul Rubin)
Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2017 21:37:52 -0700
Subject: Python and the need for speed
References: <768f9a44-5d90-4756-8a99-821253a491f8@googlegroups.com>
 <CAPTjJmrMWpzGd9Lf_sa-mscvqezY01U5kDCPRh07Nuivvxo8yg@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.5.1491710256.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <58e9e519$0$1528$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <CAPTjJmq4bCoXWryo5Jahh4he1_GP5LGjyKtJ1Mxs_XkNggi-6w@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.9.1491728745.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <58ec9192$0$1602$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <87a87mn8rc.fsf@nightsong.com> <ocj81q$rfj$1@blaine.gmane.org>
 <CAPTjJmrBHKxUoPOHExROu4u8tQzxLMPWzXEJYxVQr7P4JLpk-w@mail.gmail.com>
 <ocja89$4vk$1@blaine.gmane.org>
 <CAPTjJmq3D58UY_qdpVKe5YCbgN97fqC+er3QgnHjfh+q5Ty6zA@mail.gmail.com>
 <ocjbt2$39e$1@blaine.gmane.org>
 <mailman.57.1491940082.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <87k26qlatw.fsf@nightsong.com>
 <0c09c8c2-e68c-ed58-5603-0efa2aebbe70@gmail.com>
 <mailman.89.1492008524.2951.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <87bms0j527.fsf@nightsong.com>

Michael Torrie <torriem at gmail.com> writes:
> Equivalent to the JNI and Lisp FFI is the CFFI [1].  The JNI, the FFI,
> and the CFFI, are all for calling native code from within their
> respective languages, if I understand correctly.  They don't define a
> standard way for native code to call into these languages.

They often do, and at least the JNI does.  Some general issues are
discussed here: http://autocad.xarch.at/lisp/ffis.html


From no.email at nospam.invalid  Thu Apr 13 00:38:51 2017
From: no.email at nospam.invalid (Paul Rubin)
Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2017 21:38:51 -0700
Subject: Merging multiple sorted sequences.
References: <d99cc694-2167-3d83-38ee-b2df61c0e6b5@lucidity.plus.com>
 <mailman.103.1492035354.2951.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <877f2oj50k.fsf@nightsong.com>

Erik <python at lucidity.plus.com> writes:
> I need to be able to lazily merge a variable number of
> already-sorted(*) variable-length sequences 

If the number of sequences is large, the traditional way is with the
heapq module.


From bostananwar at gmail.com  Thu Apr 13 00:48:54 2017
From: bostananwar at gmail.com (Nicole)
Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2017 21:48:54 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Visit All URLs with selenium python
Message-ID: <43f70312-83ba-457e-a83f-7b46e5d2a08f@googlegroups.com>

        browser.get('https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=Rashmi&oq=Rashmi&aqs=chrome..69i57j69i60l3.6857j0j1&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8#q=Rashmi+Custom+Tailors')
        time.sleep(5)

        try:        
            p_links = browser.find_elements_by_css_selector('div > h3 > a')
            url_list = []
            for urls in p_links:
                if "Rashmi Custom Tailors" in urls.text:
                    
                    url = urls.get_attribute("href")
                    url_list.append(url)
                    for url in url_list:
                        browser.get(url)
                        time.sleep(4)


it just visit first url not all .. Can anybody help how to fix that..


From jussi.piitulainen at helsinki.fi  Thu Apr 13 01:19:53 2017
From: jussi.piitulainen at helsinki.fi (Jussi Piitulainen)
Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2017 08:19:53 +0300
Subject: Python and the need for speed
References: <768f9a44-5d90-4756-8a99-821253a491f8@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.5.1491710256.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <58e9e519$0$1528$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <mailman.9.1491728745.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <58ec9192$0$1602$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <oci97l$10u4$1@gioia.aioe.org>
 <58eceea2$0$1615$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <CAE6NSRD=xU_mNECNBU2w92Br=vgHJJVqSruGFrPB=vrbpkj0Nw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPjBxg_49OD_CNXUAHKjxYsUiLab4s_fCs_Ast3LyymB82zTCA@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.68.1491956914.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <4277c149-e136-4d33-91d5-d011df9149f1@googlegroups.com>
 <58edcdd2$0$1501$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <fdb4a93a-688e-4a3f-bbc3-0df3ee1d2ac7@googlegroups.com>
 <54f1685d-1d2d-44b5-869e-a510569ba9d1@googlegroups.com>
 <lf5a87ln8k9.fsf@ling.helsinki.fi>
 <1d352948-9029-4b86-b2f1-2b52608109ea@googlegroups.com>
 <lf5bms1lj6o.fsf@ling.helsinki.fi>
 <9506d7a6-cdd8-4285-8c2d-4c71b48be5da@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <lf51ssw28au.fsf@ling.helsinki.fi>

bart4858 at gmail.com writes:

> On Wednesday, 12 April 2017 16:50:01 UTC+1, Jussi Piitulainen  wrote:
>> bart4858 at gmail.com writes:
>> 
>> > On Wednesday, 12 April 2017 12:56:32 UTC+1, Jussi Piitulainen  wrote:
>> >> bartc writes:
>> >> 
>> >
>> >> > These are straightforward language enhancements.
>> >> 
>> >> FYI, the question is not how to optimize the code but how to prevent
>> >> the programmer from writing stupid code in the first place. Someone
>> >> suggested that a language should do that.
>> >
>> > The 'stupid code' thing is a red herring. I assume the code people
>> > write is there for a reason.
>> 
>> So you walked in to a conversation about something that does not
>> interest you and simply started talking about your own thing.
>> 
>> Because of course you did.
>> 
>> I get confused when you do that.
>
> Huh? The subject is making Python faster. It's generally agreed that
> being very dynamic makes that harder, everything else being equal.

Amazingly, the references in this part of the thread work all the way
back to the point were you joined in. Let me quote extensively from the
message to which you originally followed up. I lay it out so that I can
add some commentary where I point out that the topic of the discussion
at that point is whether a programming language should prevent people
from writing bad code.

[Rick Johnson, quoted by Steven D'Aprano]
|     high level languages like Python should make it difficult, if not
|     impossible, to write sub-optimal code (at least in the blatantly
|     obvious cases).

That's the topic of the discussion at that point: whether it should be
difficult to *write* bad code in the language. I don't know what else
Rick may have said in his message, but Steven chose that topic for that
message.

Not whether a language should be such that the compiler could produce
efficient code, or whether the compiler should be such that it could
produce efficient code even if the language makes it a challenge, but
whether it should be difficult to write blatantly sub-optimal code.

[Steven D'Aprano, in response]
|     You mean that Python should make it impossible to write:
|
|        near_limit = []
|        near_limit.append(1)
|        near_limit = len(near_limit)
|
|     instead of:
|
|        near_limit = 1
|
|     ? I look forward to seeing your version of RickPython that can
|     enforce that rule.

You snipped that. Steven asks whether Rick really thinks that Python
should prevent that code from being written. Steven also pointed out
that this example came from some actual code :) [*I* snipped that.]

It's not a question how to produce efficient code for that, or how
Python prevents the compiler from producing optimal code. It's a
question of the compiler rejecting the code.

Traceback (most recent call last):
  File "/dev/fd/63", line 37, in <module>
SanityClauseException: code is blatantly sub-optimal

As far as I know, no language does that. Because reasons?

[Steven D'Aprano, in response]
|     Here's another example:
|
|        answer = 0
|        for i in range(10):
|           answer += 1
|
|     instead of 
|
|        answer = 10
|
|     So... how exactly does the compiler prohibit stupid code?

That was Steven's second example, which Steven again used to ask Rick
whether or how he really thinks the compiler should prohibit such code.
(I have no idea whether that discussion has continued in other branches
of the thread, or whether Rick really thinks that, but he seemed to be
saying something like that.)

You chose to comment on that example, but I think you chose to ignore
the question of prohibition altogether, even though that was the
question in this particular exchange between Rick and Steven. You went
on to address the actual compilation challenges instead.

It's a valid topic but it's a different topic. It fits under the subject
line, but not in response to that particular message. Those example
snippets were intended as a *different kind of challenge*.

That's why your original response had me confused, briefly, and then
irritated, slightly. That's all.


From python at deborahswanson.net  Thu Apr 13 01:29:00 2017
From: python at deborahswanson.net (Deborah Swanson)
Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2017 22:29:00 -0700
Subject: Visit All URLs with selenium python
In-Reply-To: <43f70312-83ba-457e-a83f-7b46e5d2a08f@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <000301d2b416$db88c6e0$27b23dae@sambora>

Nicole wrote, on Wednesday, April 12, 2017 9:49 PM
>         
> browser.get('https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=Rashmi&oq=Rashm
> i&aqs=chrome..69i57j69i60l3.6857j0j1&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8#
q=Rashmi+Custom+Tailors')
>         time.sleep(5)
> 
>         try:        
>             p_links = 
> browser.find_elements_by_css_selector('div > h3 > a')
>             url_list = []
>             for urls in p_links:
>                 if "Rashmi Custom Tailors" in urls.text:
>                     
>                     url = urls.get_attribute("href")
>                     url_list.append(url)
>                     for url in url_list:
>                         browser.get(url)
>                         time.sleep(4)
> 
> 
> it just visit first url not all .. Can anybody help how to fix that..

You don't say what module you're using and it would help to see the 
"import ..." statement.

But there are a couple things I can think of that could be causing the
problem:

	There's only one result with the exact phrase "Rashmi Custom
Tailors" on 
	the page.

	or

	The css_selector('div > h3 > a') only occurs for the first
result and 
	selectors for subsequent results are different. I've seen that
before. If 
	the div extends all the way down the list until after the last
result, 
 	the results after the first one might have css_selector('h3 >
a'), but 
	I'm just guessing about how they might be different.

Deborah



From steve at pearwood.info  Thu Apr 13 01:29:55 2017
From: steve at pearwood.info (Steven D'Aprano)
Date: 13 Apr 2017 05:29:55 GMT
Subject: Calling dunder methods manually
Message-ID: <58ef0cd3$0$1501$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>

Should you call dunder methods (Double leading and trailing UNDERscores) 
manually? For example:


my_number.__add__(another_number)


The short answer is:

NO! In general, you shouldn't do it.


Guido recently commented:

    I agree that one shouldn't call __init__ manually (and in fact Python
    always reserves the right to have "undefined" behavior when you
    define or use dunder names other than documented).


so unless documented as safe to use manually, you should assume that it 
is not.


https://github.com/python/typing/issues/241#issuecomment-292694838



This-Public-Service-Announcement-Brought-To-You-By-MyPy-ly y'rs,




-- 
Steve


From bostananwar at gmail.com  Thu Apr 13 02:02:58 2017
From: bostananwar at gmail.com (Nicole)
Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2017 23:02:58 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Visit All URLs with selenium python
In-Reply-To: <43f70312-83ba-457e-a83f-7b46e5d2a08f@googlegroups.com>
References: <43f70312-83ba-457e-a83f-7b46e5d2a08f@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <662aca9a-4671-48f5-88b3-3f5cf3effe49@googlegroups.com>

from selenium.webdriver.firefox.firefox_profile import FirefoxProfile
import random
from selenium import webdriver
from selenium.webdriver.common.keys import Keys


From bostananwar at gmail.com  Thu Apr 13 02:04:37 2017
From: bostananwar at gmail.com (Nicole)
Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2017 23:04:37 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Visit All URLs with selenium python
In-Reply-To: <43f70312-83ba-457e-a83f-7b46e5d2a08f@googlegroups.com>
References: <43f70312-83ba-457e-a83f-7b46e5d2a08f@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <96dabd69-deff-4293-8e7c-46aa90875728@googlegroups.com>

Hi Deborah,
   I checked again selecting css there found 11 URLS and I printed it is printing all urls but it visits the first url not all..


From rustompmody at gmail.com  Thu Apr 13 02:18:47 2017
From: rustompmody at gmail.com (Rustom Mody)
Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2017 23:18:47 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Calling dunder methods manually
In-Reply-To: <58ef0cd3$0$1501$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
References: <58ef0cd3$0$1501$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
Message-ID: <523039d1-5f43-4d73-932a-4b2bd130754e@googlegroups.com>

On Thursday, April 13, 2017 at 11:00:03 AM UTC+5:30, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
> Should you call dunder methods (Double leading and trailing UNDERscores) 
> manually? For example:
> 
> 
> my_number.__add__(another_number)
> 
> 
> The short answer is:
> 
> NO! In general, you shouldn't do it.
> 
> 
> Guido recently commented:
> 
>     I agree that one shouldn't call __init__ manually (and in fact Python
>     always reserves the right to have "undefined" behavior when you
>     define or use dunder names other than documented).
> 
> 
> so unless documented as safe to use manually, you should assume that it 
> is not.
> 
> 
> https://github.com/python/typing/issues/241#issuecomment-292694838
> 
> 
> 
> This-Public-Service-Announcement-Brought-To-You-By-MyPy-ly y'rs,
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Steve

I believe it was ChrisA who gave a pithy summary of the situation:
Dont CALL dunders
But its fine to DEFINE them


From greg.ewing at canterbury.ac.nz  Thu Apr 13 02:19:24 2017
From: greg.ewing at canterbury.ac.nz (Gregory Ewing)
Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2017 18:19:24 +1200
Subject: Python and the need for speed
In-Reply-To: <2759e6e0-ad95-466c-81f6-556133620999@googlegroups.com>
References: <768f9a44-5d90-4756-8a99-821253a491f8@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.5.1491710256.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <58e9e519$0$1528$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <mailman.9.1491728745.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <58ec9192$0$1602$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <oci97l$10u4$1@gioia.aioe.org>
 <58eceea2$0$1615$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <CAE6NSRD=xU_mNECNBU2w92Br=vgHJJVqSruGFrPB=vrbpkj0Nw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPjBxg_49OD_CNXUAHKjxYsUiLab4s_fCs_Ast3LyymB82zTCA@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.68.1491956914.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <4277c149-e136-4d33-91d5-d011df9149f1@googlegroups.com>
 <58edcdd2$0$1501$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <fdb4a93a-688e-4a3f-bbc3-0df3ee1d2ac7@googlegroups.com>
 <54f1685d-1d2d-44b5-869e-a510569ba9d1@googlegroups.com>
 <lf5a87ln8k9.fsf@ling.helsinki.fi>
 <1d352948-9029-4b86-b2f1-2b52608109ea@googlegroups.com>
 <el7qd0Fpai9U1@mid.individual.net>
 <2759e6e0-ad95-466c-81f6-556133620999@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <el8jjeFtf0mU1@mid.individual.net>

bart4858 at gmail.com wrote:
> (Although I think Python would have difficulty in turning x+=1 into a
> single opcode, if using normal object references and a shared object model.)

The ADD_ONE opcode would have to be defined to have the same
effect as the sequence emitted for x+=1, including all the
dynamic lookups, so the only speed advantage would be eliminating
a few trips around the bytecode fetch-decode-execute loop.
Which could still be worthwhile, if experience with the wordcode
interpreter is anything to go by.

There was also a project that attempted to find frequently
used sequences of opcodes and create specialised opcodes for
them, which reportedly had some success as well.

The logic behind these approaches is that unpredictable
branches, such as the opcode switch in the ceval loop, are
expensive on modern architectures, so eliminating as many of
them as possible can be a win.

-- 
Greg


From bostananwar at gmail.com  Thu Apr 13 02:29:54 2017
From: bostananwar at gmail.com (Nicole)
Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2017 23:29:54 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Visit All URLs with selenium python
In-Reply-To: <43f70312-83ba-457e-a83f-7b46e5d2a08f@googlegroups.com>
References: <43f70312-83ba-457e-a83f-7b46e5d2a08f@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <210cfded-1b40-49b9-b59e-2f54aad5f3d7@googlegroups.com>

Here you can see now

from selenium.webdriver.firefox.firefox_profile import FirefoxProfile 
import random 
from selenium import webdriver 
from selenium.webdriver.common.keys import Keys 

browser.get('https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=Rashmi&oq=Rashmi&aqs=chrome..69i57j69i60l3.6857j0j1&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8#q=Mobiles+in+london')
time.sleep(5)

try:        
        p_links = browser.find_elements_by_css_selector(' div > h3 > a')
        url_list = []
        for urls in p_links:
            if "London" in urls.text:

                urls.get_attribute("href")
                url_list.append(urls)
                for links in url_list:
                    browser.get(links)
                    time.sleep(4)
except:
    browser.close()


From __peter__ at web.de  Thu Apr 13 02:30:03 2017
From: __peter__ at web.de (Peter Otten)
Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2017 08:30:03 +0200
Subject: Merging multiple sorted sequences.
References: <d99cc694-2167-3d83-38ee-b2df61c0e6b5@lucidity.plus.com>
 <ocmagr$43e$1@blaine.gmane.org>
 <1815e8aa-473d-db5d-019a-d4440f61a8f8@lucidity.plus.com>
Message-ID: <ocn5t5$8b3$1@blaine.gmane.org>

Erik wrote:

> Hi Peter,
> 
> On 12/04/17 23:42, Peter Otten wrote:
>> Erik wrote:
>>
>>> I need to be able to lazily merge a variable number of already-sorted(*)
>>> variable-length sequences into a single sorted sequence.
>>
>> https://docs.python.org/dev/library/heapq.html#heapq.merge
> 
> AFAICT (looking at the Python 3.5 heapq implementation, albeit very
> briefly), it seems like that is a greedy algorithm. Am I missing
> something?
> 
> Thanks, E.

Watching it at work:

>>> import heapq
>>> def noisy(items, source):
...     for item in items:
...         print("fetching", item, "from", source)
...         yield item
... 
>>> a = noisy(range(0, 10, 2), "a")
>>> b = noisy(range(1, 10, 2), "b")
>>> c = noisy([3.5, 3.6, 5.5], "c")
>>> abc = heapq.merge(a, b, c)
>>> next(abc)
fetching 0 from a
fetching 1 from b
fetching 3.5 from c
0
>>> next(abc)
fetching 2 from a
1
>>> next(abc)
fetching 3 from b
2
>>> next(abc)
fetching 4 from a
3
>>> next(abc)
fetching 5 from b
3.5
>>> next(abc)
fetching 3.6 from c
3.6

Verdict: not greedy ;)



From greg.ewing at canterbury.ac.nz  Thu Apr 13 02:32:17 2017
From: greg.ewing at canterbury.ac.nz (Gregory Ewing)
Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2017 18:32:17 +1200
Subject: Python and the need for speed
In-Reply-To: <lf51ssw28au.fsf@ling.helsinki.fi>
References: <768f9a44-5d90-4756-8a99-821253a491f8@googlegroups.com>	<mailman.5.1491710256.2951.python-list@python.org>	<58e9e519$0$1528$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>	<mailman.9.1491728745.2951.python-list@python.org>	<58ec9192$0$1602$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>	<oci97l$10u4$1@gioia.aioe.org>	<58eceea2$0$1615$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>	<CAE6NSRD=xU_mNECNBU2w92Br=vgHJJVqSruGFrPB=vrbpkj0Nw@mail.gmail.com>	<CAPjBxg_49OD_CNXUAHKjxYsUiLab4s_fCs_Ast3LyymB82zTCA@mail.gmail.com>	<mailman.68.1491956914.2951.python-list@python.org>	<4277c149-e136-4d33-91d5-d011df9149f1@googlegroups.com>	<58edcdd2$0$1501$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>	<fdb4a93a-688e-4a3f-bbc3-0df3ee1d2ac7@googlegroups.com>	<54f1685d-1d2d-44b5-869e-a510569ba9d1@googlegroups.com>	<lf5a87ln8k9.fsf@ling.helsinki.fi>	<1d352948-9029-4b86-b2f1-2b52608109ea@googlegroups.com>	<lf5bms1lj6o.fsf@ling.helsinki.fi>	<9506d7a6-cdd8-4285-8c2d-4c71b48be5da@googlegroups.com>
 <lf51ssw28au.fsf@ling.helsinki.fi>
Message-ID: <el8kbjFtjq5U1@mid.individual.net>

Jussi Piitulainen wrote:
> Traceback (most recent call last):
>   File "/dev/fd/63", line 37, in <module>
> SanityClauseException: code is blatantly sub-optimal
> 
> As far as I know, no language does that. Because reasons?

Because the problem of making a compiler do that is
probably AI-complete!

-- 
Greg


From steve at pearwood.info  Thu Apr 13 02:32:22 2017
From: steve at pearwood.info (Steven D'Aprano)
Date: 13 Apr 2017 06:32:22 GMT
Subject: Python and the need for speed
References: <768f9a44-5d90-4756-8a99-821253a491f8@googlegroups.com>
 <CAPTjJmrMWpzGd9Lf_sa-mscvqezY01U5kDCPRh07Nuivvxo8yg@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.5.1491710256.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <58e9e519$0$1528$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <CAPTjJmq4bCoXWryo5Jahh4he1_GP5LGjyKtJ1Mxs_XkNggi-6w@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.9.1491728745.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <58ec9192$0$1602$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <87a87mn8rc.fsf@nightsong.com>
 <58ed8c02$0$1620$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <878tn5zqxf.fsf@bsb.me.uk>
Message-ID: <58ef1b75$0$1501$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>

On Wed, 12 Apr 2017 14:38:52 +0100, Ben Bacarisse wrote:

> Steve D'Aprano <steve+python at pearwood.info> writes:
> 
>> On Wed, 12 Apr 2017 03:39 am, Paul Rubin wrote:
>>
>>> I still do my everyday stuff in Python and I'd like to get more
>>> conversant with stuff like numpy, but it feels like an old-fashioned
>>> language these days.
>>
>> "Old fashioned"? With await/async just added to the language, and type
>> annotations? And comprehensions and iterators?
>>
>> Admittedly type annotations are mostly of interest to large projects
>> with many developers and a huge code base. But the rest?
>>
>> Comprehensions may have been around for a decade or two in Haskell, but
>> most older languages don't have them. I'm pretty sure Java doesn't.
>> Does Javascript? Comprehensions feel like a fancy new language feature
>> to me.
> 
> They've been in in Haskell for nearly three decades, but they were
> around before that.  Miranda had them, as did Miranda's immediate
> predecessor, KRC.  KRC dates from about 1980, so if you've been using
> that lineage of languages, list comprehensions have been a standard
> feature for 37 years.  I've been using them almost my entire programming
> life.


Indeed, and this is a very common phenomenon: features which "ordinary" 
programmers imagine are "trendy" and new end up having their roots in 
some functional language dating back to the 1980s, or 70s, or in extreme 
cases the 1950s and Lisp.

That's what I meant: even though Haskell has had comprehensions for 
decades, they haven't hit "mainstream" procedural languages (Java, 
Javascript, C) at all or until recently. Python's had them for a decade 
or more (how time flies...) but they still to this day get reactions from 
many Python programmers like

"I don't get these fancy new list comprehensions, what's wrong with an 
old-fashioned for-loop?"


(not quoting anyone in particular, although Bart did specifically mention 
he didn't grok comprehensions).


> It seems odd that ECMAScript (the JavaScript standard) does not have
> them, but then JS seems to hide its function nature under an imperative
> bushel.
> 
> Just another perspective...


Thanks. I knew comprehensions have been around for a while, I didn't 
realise they went back to Miranda and even older.



-- 
Steve


From __peter__ at web.de  Thu Apr 13 02:34:55 2017
From: __peter__ at web.de (Peter Otten)
Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2017 08:34:55 +0200
Subject: Namedtuples: some unexpected inconveniences
References: <ocm8ti$v8c$1@blaine.gmane.org>
 <00bf01d2b3e4$99b6b8d0$27b23dae@sambora>
Message-ID: <ocn66a$rbk$1@blaine.gmane.org>

Deborah Swanson wrote:

> It's a small point, but I suspect getattr(record, label) would still
> fail, even if label's value is 'label' and only 'label', but what's the
> point of having a variable if it will only ever have just one value?

You are misunderstanding. Your getattr() call fails because you have

label = "label"

burried somewhere in your code. As soon as you change that to

label = <insert an existing attribute name here>

the error will go away. 




From python at deborahswanson.net  Thu Apr 13 02:38:46 2017
From: python at deborahswanson.net (Deborah Swanson)
Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2017 23:38:46 -0700
Subject: Visit All URLs with selenium python
In-Reply-To: <662aca9a-4671-48f5-88b3-3f5cf3effe49@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <000f01d2b420$9ac30170$27b23dae@sambora>

Nicole wrote, on Wednesday, April 12, 2017 11:03 PM
> 
> from selenium.webdriver.firefox.firefox_profile import 
> FirefoxProfile import random from selenium import webdriver 
> from selenium.webdriver.common.keys import Keys

Ok, that gives us a clue what you're working with, which will probably
help with something. 

Since your code works, I'm guessing your use of selenium is probably ok.
I'd be looking for structural issues in the HTML for reasons why you're
not getting what you want to get.



From python at deborahswanson.net  Thu Apr 13 02:45:53 2017
From: python at deborahswanson.net (Deborah Swanson)
Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2017 23:45:53 -0700
Subject: Visit All URLs with selenium python
In-Reply-To: <96dabd69-deff-4293-8e7c-46aa90875728@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <001001d2b421$996502a0$27b23dae@sambora>

Nicole wrote, on Wednesday, April 12, 2017 11:05 PM
> 
> Hi Deborah,
>    I checked again selecting css there found 11 URLS and I 
> printed it is printing all urls but it visits the first url not all..

I'm just guessing again, but 

	time.sleep(4)

could be too long a time to sleep, especially if you're on a fast
network and you don't have many browser windows open before you run your
code. It might be opening the first url and printing all the others and
exiting the for loop  before time.sleep(4) expires.



From python at deborahswanson.net  Thu Apr 13 02:50:46 2017
From: python at deborahswanson.net (Deborah Swanson)
Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2017 23:50:46 -0700
Subject: Visit All URLs with selenium python
In-Reply-To: <96dabd69-deff-4293-8e7c-46aa90875728@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <001101d2b422$47b83cf0$27b23dae@sambora>

Nicole wrote, on Wednesday, April 12, 2017 11:05 PM
> 
> Hi Deborah,
>    I checked again selecting css there found 11 URLS and I 
> printed it is printing all urls but it visits the first url not all..


Hmm. Sounds like you've changed your code in some way. Either changing
the web page you're pointing to, changing the css selector or something
I can't guess, because in your last msg yo said you were seeing just the
opposite.




From bostananwar at gmail.com  Thu Apr 13 02:56:09 2017
From: bostananwar at gmail.com (Nicole)
Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2017 23:56:09 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Visit All URLs with selenium python
In-Reply-To: <mailman.126.1492066249.2951.python-list@python.org>
References: <96dabd69-deff-4293-8e7c-46aa90875728@googlegroups.com>
 <001101d2b422$47b83cf0$27b23dae@sambora>
 <mailman.126.1492066249.2951.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <b0057cd4-5e35-4db8-b8c2-f014fa116e57@googlegroups.com>

Not actually that's not.. You said there could be a Problem in HTML that's why I tested it on a new URL but it just viting the first URL not all.. Please help.. 


From python at deborahswanson.net  Thu Apr 13 02:56:15 2017
From: python at deborahswanson.net (Deborah Swanson)
Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2017 23:56:15 -0700
Subject: Visit All URLs with selenium python
In-Reply-To: <210cfded-1b40-49b9-b59e-2f54aad5f3d7@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <001401d2b423$0b914310$27b23dae@sambora>

Nicole wrote, on Wednesday, April 12, 2017 11:30 PM
> 
> Here you can see now
> 
> from selenium.webdriver.firefox.firefox_profile import FirefoxProfile 
> import random 
> from selenium import webdriver 
> from selenium.webdriver.common.keys import Keys 
> 
> browser.get('https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=Rashmi&oq=Rashm
> i&aqs=chrome..69i57j69i60l3.6857j0j1&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8#
> q=Mobiles+in+london')
> time.sleep(5)
> 
> try:        
>         p_links = browser.find_elements_by_css_selector(' div 
> > h3 > a')
>         url_list = []
>         for urls in p_links:
>             if "London" in urls.text:
> 
>                 urls.get_attribute("href")
>                 url_list.append(urls)
>                 for links in url_list:
>                     browser.get(links)
>                     time.sleep(4)
> except:
>     browser.close()

Ok, I'm sure you changed the search terms, don't know if you changed the
google url, but the code looks the same.

I'm headed away from the computer for the night, but try using a shorter
sleep time, like

time.sleep(1)



From bostananwar at gmail.com  Thu Apr 13 02:57:36 2017
From: bostananwar at gmail.com (Nicole)
Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2017 23:57:36 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Visit All URLs with selenium python
In-Reply-To: <b0057cd4-5e35-4db8-b8c2-f014fa116e57@googlegroups.com>
References: <96dabd69-deff-4293-8e7c-46aa90875728@googlegroups.com>
 <001101d2b422$47b83cf0$27b23dae@sambora>
 <mailman.126.1492066249.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <b0057cd4-5e35-4db8-b8c2-f014fa116e57@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <f1d769f7-d13c-4dc8-a8a0-458c95c76109@googlegroups.com>

        browser.get('https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=Rashmi&oq=Rashmi&aqs=chrome..69i57j69i60l3.6857j0j1&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8#q=Rashmi+Custom+Tailors')
        time.sleep(5)

        try:        
            p_links = browser.find_elements_by_css_selector(' div > h3 > a')
            url_list = []
            for urls in p_links:
                if "Rashmi Custom Tailors" in urls.text:
                    
                    url = urls.get_attribute("href")
                    url_list.append(url)
                    for links in url_list:
                        browser.get(links)
                        time.sleep(4)

        except:
            pass


From bostananwar at gmail.com  Thu Apr 13 02:59:29 2017
From: bostananwar at gmail.com (Nicole)
Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2017 23:59:29 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Visit All URLs with selenium python
In-Reply-To: <f1d769f7-d13c-4dc8-a8a0-458c95c76109@googlegroups.com>
References: <96dabd69-deff-4293-8e7c-46aa90875728@googlegroups.com>
 <001101d2b422$47b83cf0$27b23dae@sambora>
 <mailman.126.1492066249.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <b0057cd4-5e35-4db8-b8c2-f014fa116e57@googlegroups.com>
 <f1d769f7-d13c-4dc8-a8a0-458c95c76109@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <fad0a2fd-ef40-4ec3-b7fe-dd3079783f7b@googlegroups.com>

I have used 0 to 10 sec time sleep but it is not working.. please help me otherwise my assignment would get mark 0


From storchaka at gmail.com  Thu Apr 13 03:01:16 2017
From: storchaka at gmail.com (Serhiy Storchaka)
Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2017 10:01:16 +0300
Subject: Calling dunder methods manually
In-Reply-To: <58ef0cd3$0$1501$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
References: <58ef0cd3$0$1501$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
Message-ID: <ocn7nn$3cq$1@blaine.gmane.org>

On 13.04.17 08:29, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
> Should you call dunder methods (Double leading and trailing UNDERscores)
> manually? For example:
>
>
> my_number.__add__(another_number)
>
>
> The short answer is:
>
> NO! In general, you shouldn't do it.
>
>
> Guido recently commented:
>
>     I agree that one shouldn't call __init__ manually (and in fact Python
>     always reserves the right to have "undefined" behavior when you
>     define or use dunder names other than documented).
>
>
> so unless documented as safe to use manually, you should assume that it
> is not.
>
>
> https://github.com/python/typing/issues/241#issuecomment-292694838

__init__ is perhaps the most called dunder method. It is often called 
from the __init__ method of subclasses.

__add__ also can be called from other __add__, __iadd__ or __radd__.



From python at deborahswanson.net  Thu Apr 13 03:03:36 2017
From: python at deborahswanson.net (Deborah Swanson)
Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2017 00:03:36 -0700
Subject: Namedtuples: some unexpected inconveniences
In-Reply-To: <ocn66a$rbk$1@blaine.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <001701d2b424$12a34d00$27b23dae@sambora>

Peter Otten wrote, on Wednesday, April 12, 2017 11:35 PM
> 
> Deborah Swanson wrote:
> 
> > It's a small point, but I suspect getattr(record, label) 
> would still 
> > fail, even if label's value is 'label' and only 'label', but what's 
> > the point of having a variable if it will only ever have just one 
> > value?
> 
> You are misunderstanding. Your getattr() call fails because you have
> 
> label = "label"
> 
> burried somewhere in your code. As soon as you change that to
> 
> label = <insert an existing attribute name here>
> 
> the error will go away. 


Yes, the error goes away, but now getattr(record, label) is useless for
processing field names, unless you want to write a line of code for each
one. (I have 17 field names, and forget about passing label to a
function.)



From greg.ewing at canterbury.ac.nz  Thu Apr 13 03:16:37 2017
From: greg.ewing at canterbury.ac.nz (Gregory Ewing)
Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2017 19:16:37 +1200
Subject: Namedtuples: some unexpected inconveniences
In-Reply-To: <mailman.101.1492034412.2951.python-list@python.org>
References: <ocm3jt$h2q$1@blaine.gmane.org>
 <00a901d2b3d8$25d09460$27b23dae@sambora>
 <mailman.101.1492034412.2951.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <el8muoFu2l5U1@mid.individual.net>

Deborah Swanson wrote:
> But I think you got it right in your last sentence below. defaultdict
> copied them because they were immutable,

No, definitely not. A defaultdict will never take it upon
itself to copy an object you give it, either as a key or a
value.

The copying, if any, must have occurred somewhere else, in
code that you didn't show us.

Can you show us the actual code you used to attempt to
update the namedtuples?

-- 
Greg


From __peter__ at web.de  Thu Apr 13 03:17:28 2017
From: __peter__ at web.de (Peter Otten)
Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2017 09:17:28 +0200
Subject: Namedtuples: some unexpected inconveniences
References: <ocn66a$rbk$1@blaine.gmane.org>
 <001701d2b424$12a34d00$27b23dae@sambora>
Message-ID: <ocn8m2$3ir$1@blaine.gmane.org>

Deborah Swanson wrote:

> Peter Otten wrote, on Wednesday, April 12, 2017 11:35 PM
>> 
>> Deborah Swanson wrote:
>> 
>> > It's a small point, but I suspect getattr(record, label)
>> would still
>> > fail, even if label's value is 'label' and only 'label', but what's
>> > the point of having a variable if it will only ever have just one
>> > value?
>> 
>> You are misunderstanding. Your getattr() call fails because you have
>> 
>> label = "label"
>> 
>> burried somewhere in your code. As soon as you change that to
>> 
>> label = <insert an existing attribute name here>
>> 
>> the error will go away.
> 
> 
> Yes, the error goes away, but now getattr(record, label) is useless for
> processing field names, unless you want to write a line of code for each
> one. (I have 17 field names, and forget about passing label to a
> function.)

No, it's not useless:

>>> from collections import namedtuple
>>> T = namedtuple("T", "foo bar baz")
>>> t = T(1, 2, 3)
>>> for name in t._fields:
...     print(name, "=", getattr(t, name))
... 
foo = 1
bar = 2
baz = 3

And as a special service here's a mutable datatype with sufficient 
namedtuple compatibility to replicate the above snippet:

$ cat namedtuple_replacement.py
def struct(name, wanted_columns):
    class Struct:
        _fields = __slots__ = wanted_columns.split()

        def __init__(self, *args):
            names = self.__slots__
            if len(args) != len(names):
                raise ValueError
            for name, value in zip(names, args):
                setattr(self, name, value)

        @classmethod
        def _make(cls, args):
            return cls(*args)

        def __repr__(self):
            names = self.__slots__
            return "{}({})".format(
                self.__class__.__name__,
                ", ".join("{}={!r}".format(n, getattr(self, n)) for n in 
names)
            )

    Struct.__name__ = name
    return Struct

T = struct("T", "foo bar baz")
t = T(1, 2, 3)
print(t)
for name in t._fields:
    print(name, "=", getattr(t, name))
t.bar = 42
print(t)
$ python3 namedtuple_replacement.py 
T(foo=1, bar=2, baz=3)
foo = 1
bar = 2
baz = 3
T(foo=1, bar=42, baz=3)




From eryksun at gmail.com  Thu Apr 13 03:18:10 2017
From: eryksun at gmail.com (eryk sun)
Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2017 07:18:10 +0000
Subject: Calling dunder methods manually
In-Reply-To: <58ef0cd3$0$1501$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
References: <58ef0cd3$0$1501$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
Message-ID: <CACL+1aukBLjSggVC9xjj7FboEpak9vT2Pv8=KOk5_e7=d88yuQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Apr 13, 2017 at 5:29 AM, Steven D'Aprano <steve at pearwood.info> wrote:
> Should you call dunder methods (Double leading and trailing UNDERscores)
> manually? For example:
>
>
> my_number.__add__(another_number)
>
>
> The short answer is:
>
> NO! In general, you shouldn't do it.
>
>
> Guido recently commented:
>
>     I agree that one shouldn't call __init__ manually (and in fact Python
>     always reserves the right to have "undefined" behavior when you
>     define or use dunder names other than documented).
>
>
> so unless documented as safe to use manually, you should assume that it
> is not.
>
>
> https://github.com/python/typing/issues/241#issuecomment-292694838

I manually call dunder methods all the time when overriding a special
method in a subclass. It's happening all over the place -- thousands
and even millions of times in a program. You generally shouldn't call
them outside of a class definition -- not because it's inherently bad
(though calling __init__ on an already initialized object is weird and
probably bad), but because it's bad style and does an end-run around
the high-level behavior of the interpreter.


From greg.ewing at canterbury.ac.nz  Thu Apr 13 03:34:27 2017
From: greg.ewing at canterbury.ac.nz (Gregory Ewing)
Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2017 19:34:27 +1200
Subject: Namedtuples: some unexpected inconveniences
In-Reply-To: <mailman.101.1492034412.2951.python-list@python.org>
References: <ocm3jt$h2q$1@blaine.gmane.org>
 <00a901d2b3d8$25d09460$27b23dae@sambora>
 <mailman.101.1492034412.2951.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <el8o06Fu980U1@mid.individual.net>

Deborah Swanson wrote:
> Peter Otten wrote, on Wednesday, April 12, 2017 1:45 PM
> 
>> Personally I would immediately discard the header row once and for
>> all, not again and again on every operation.
> 
> Well, perhaps, but I need the header row to stay in place to write the
> list to a csv when I'm done

That's no problem, just write the header row separately.

Do this at the beginning:

   header = [Record._make(fieldnames)]
   records = [Record._make(row) for row in rows]

and then to write out the file:

   writer = csv.writer(outputfile)
   writer.writerow(header)
   writer.writerows(records)

> There might be a tiny performance edge in discarding the header
> row for the sort, but there would also be a hit to recreate it at output
> time.

It's not about performance, it's about keeping the code as clean
and simple as you can, thus making it easier to understand and
maintain.

The general idea to take away from this is that it's almost always
best to arrange things so that a given collection contains just
one kind of data, so you can treat every element of it in exactly
the same way.

-- 
Greg


From greg.ewing at canterbury.ac.nz  Thu Apr 13 03:36:24 2017
From: greg.ewing at canterbury.ac.nz (Gregory Ewing)
Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2017 19:36:24 +1200
Subject: Namedtuples: some unexpected inconveniences
In-Reply-To: <mailman.101.1492034412.2951.python-list@python.org>
References: <ocm3jt$h2q$1@blaine.gmane.org>
 <00a901d2b3d8$25d09460$27b23dae@sambora>
 <mailman.101.1492034412.2951.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <el8o3oFu980U2@mid.individual.net>

If you want to be able to update your rows, you may find
this useful:

https://pypi.python.org/pypi/recordclass

It's very similar to a namedtuple, but mutable. Looks like it
should be a drop-in replacement.

-- 
Greg


From eryksun at gmail.com  Thu Apr 13 03:43:08 2017
From: eryksun at gmail.com (eryk sun)
Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2017 07:43:08 +0000
Subject: Calling dunder methods manually
In-Reply-To: <58ef0cd3$0$1501$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
References: <58ef0cd3$0$1501$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
Message-ID: <CACL+1asmMBr=m4Zc7hwvsouYLcFsMkNFkLBDBQLHm=jmYROsDQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Apr 13, 2017 at 5:29 AM, Steven D'Aprano <steve at pearwood.info> wrote:
>
> my_number.__add__(another_number)
>
> The short answer is:
>
> NO! In general, you shouldn't do it.

For example:

    class C:
        def __add__(self, other):
            return NotImplemented

    class D:
        def __radd__(self, other):
            return 42

    >>> C().__add__(D())
    NotImplemented

    >>> C() + D()
    42

The functions in the operator module implement abstract behavior (e.g.
PyNumber_Add in CPython):

    >>> operator.__add__(C(), D())
    42


From steve at pearwood.info  Thu Apr 13 04:08:14 2017
From: steve at pearwood.info (Steven D'Aprano)
Date: 13 Apr 2017 08:08:14 GMT
Subject: Python and the need for speed
References: <768f9a44-5d90-4756-8a99-821253a491f8@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.5.1491710256.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <58e9e519$0$1528$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <mailman.9.1491728745.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <58ec9192$0$1602$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <oci97l$10u4$1@gioia.aioe.org>
 <58eceea2$0$1615$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <CAE6NSRD=xU_mNECNBU2w92Br=vgHJJVqSruGFrPB=vrbpkj0Nw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPjBxg_49OD_CNXUAHKjxYsUiLab4s_fCs_Ast3LyymB82zTCA@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.68.1491956914.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <4277c149-e136-4d33-91d5-d011df9149f1@googlegroups.com>
 <58edcdd2$0$1501$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <fdb4a93a-688e-4a3f-bbc3-0df3ee1d2ac7@googlegroups.com>
 <54f1685d-1d2d-44b5-869e-a510569ba9d1@googlegroups.com>
 <lf5a87ln8k9.fsf@ling.helsinki.fi>
 <1d352948-9029-4b86-b2f1-2b52608109ea@googlegroups.com>
 <el7qd0Fpai9U1@mid.individual.net>
 <2759e6e0-ad95-466c-81f6-556133620999@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <58ef31ee$0$1501$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>

On Wed, 12 Apr 2017 16:30:38 -0700, bart4858 wrote:

> (Although I think Python would have difficulty in turning x+=1 into a
> single opcode, if using normal object references and a shared object
> model.)

You know, since Python actually exists and isn't just a hypothetical 
language, we can find out what it actually does, not just guess :-)


>>> import dis
>>> code = compile("x += 1", "", "single")
>>> dis.dis(code)
  1           0 LOAD_NAME                0 (x)
              3 LOAD_CONST               0 (1)
              6 INPLACE_ADD
              7 STORE_NAME               0 (x)
             10 LOAD_CONST               1 (None)
             13 RETURN_VALUE


There's an op-code for looking up the name 'x', another to push the 
constant 1 on the stack, an op-code for "INPLACE_ADD", followed by an op-
code for STORE_NAME again.

In principle, we could replace the LOAD_CONST and INPLACE_ADD with a 
single op-code that combines the two. Whether that would speed anything 
up is another question.

Is it possible to skip the STORE_NAME op-code? If you knew *for sure* 
that the target (x) was a mutable object which implemented += using an in-
place mutation, then you could, but the only built-in where that applies 
is list so even if you could guarantee x was a list, it hardly seems 
worth the bother.



-- 
Steve


From davidgshi at yahoo.co.uk  Thu Apr 13 04:12:33 2017
From: davidgshi at yahoo.co.uk (David Shi)
Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2017 08:12:33 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: Read a text file into a Pandas DataFrame Table
References: <1040730225.1594206.1492071153498.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <1040730225.1594206.1492071153498@mail.yahoo.com>

Dear All,
Can anyone help to read a text file into a Pandas DataFrame Table?
Please see the link below.
http://www.ebi.ac.uk/ena/data/warehouse/search?query=%22geo_circ(-0.587,-90.5713,170)%22&result=sequence_release&display=text

Regards.
David

From greg.ewing at canterbury.ac.nz  Thu Apr 13 04:14:19 2017
From: greg.ewing at canterbury.ac.nz (Gregory Ewing)
Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2017 20:14:19 +1200
Subject: Namedtuples: some unexpected inconveniences
In-Reply-To: <mailman.109.1492039765.2951.python-list@python.org>
References: <ocm8ti$v8c$1@blaine.gmane.org>
 <00bf01d2b3e4$99b6b8d0$27b23dae@sambora>
 <mailman.109.1492039765.2951.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <el8qauF71dU1@mid.individual.net>

Deborah Swanson wrote:
> I don't exactly understand your point (2). If the namedtuple does not
> have a label attribute, then getattr(record, label) will get the error
> whether the name label holds the string 'label' or not.

You sound rather confused. Maybe the following interactive
session transcript will help.

 >>> from collections import namedtuple
 >>> record = namedtuple('record', 'alpha,beta')
 >>> r = record(1, 2)
 >>> r
record(alpha=1, beta=2)
 >>> label = 'alpha'
 >>> getattr(r, label)
1
 >>> label = 'beta'
 >>> getattr(r, label)
2
 >>> label = 'gamma'
 >>> getattr(r, label)
Traceback (most recent call last):
   File "<stdin>", line 1, in <module>
AttributeError: 'record' object has no attribute 'gamma'

Can you see what's happening here? The expression

    label

is being evaluated, and whatever string it evaluates to is
being used as the attribute name to look up.

Now, I'm not sure exactly what you were doing to get the
message "'record' object has no attribute 'label'".
Here are a few possible ways to get that effect:

 >>> r.label
Traceback (most recent call last):
   File "<stdin>", line 1, in <module>
AttributeError: 'record' object has no attribute 'label'

 >>> getattr(r, 'label')
Traceback (most recent call last):
   File "<stdin>", line 1, in <module>
AttributeError: 'record' object has no attribute 'label'

 >>> label = 'label'
 >>> getattr(r, label)
Traceback (most recent call last):
   File "<stdin>", line 1, in <module>
AttributeError: 'record' object has no attribute 'label'

Or maybe you did something else again. We would need to
see your code in order to tell.

-- 
Greg


From kwpolska at gmail.com  Thu Apr 13 04:24:24 2017
From: kwpolska at gmail.com (Chris Warrick)
Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2017 10:24:24 +0200
Subject: Calling dunder methods manually
In-Reply-To: <CACL+1asmMBr=m4Zc7hwvsouYLcFsMkNFkLBDBQLHm=jmYROsDQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <58ef0cd3$0$1501$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <CACL+1asmMBr=m4Zc7hwvsouYLcFsMkNFkLBDBQLHm=jmYROsDQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAMw+j7L3tyL_npgEbSff9neKqPjRAXnmpWZoUiZX2xBiPL=bkw@mail.gmail.com>

On 13 April 2017 at 09:43, eryk sun <eryksun at gmail.com> wrote:
> The functions in the operator module implement abstract behavior (e.g.
> PyNumber_Add in CPython):
>
>     >>> operator.__add__(C(), D())
>     42

Those functions also do not need underscores ? operator.add is a
prettier way to achieve the same result.

-- 
Chris Warrick <https://chriswarrick.com/>
PGP: 5EAAEA16


From greg.ewing at canterbury.ac.nz  Thu Apr 13 04:25:35 2017
From: greg.ewing at canterbury.ac.nz (Gregory Ewing)
Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2017 20:25:35 +1200
Subject: Python and the need for speed
In-Reply-To: <878tn6djq6.fsf@elektro.pacujo.net>
References: <768f9a44-5d90-4756-8a99-821253a491f8@googlegroups.com>	<CAPTjJmrMWpzGd9Lf_sa-mscvqezY01U5kDCPRh07Nuivvxo8yg@mail.gmail.com>	<mailman.5.1491710256.2951.python-list@python.org>	<58e9e519$0$1528$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>	<CAPTjJmq4bCoXWryo5Jahh4he1_GP5LGjyKtJ1Mxs_XkNggi-6w@mail.gmail.com>	<mailman.9.1491728745.2951.python-list@python.org>	<58ec9192$0$1602$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>	<87a87mn8rc.fsf@nightsong.com>	<58ed8c02$0$1620$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>	<069ed317-abab-4980-a06c-6eafdc029653@googlegroups.com>	<CAPTjJmrHEkTNu8X+ztUgRpLtTrY2tf0RMFF2wtvy2+Ko3bfkmA@mail.gmail.com>	<mailman.73.1491965716.2951.python-list@python.org>	<87r30yjlfd.fsf@nightsong.com>
 <878tn6djq6.fsf@elektro.pacujo.net>
Message-ID: <el8qvvF9nfU1@mid.individual.net>

Marko Rauhamaa wrote:
> As swapping is no longer considered normal on modern computers,

It isn't? When did that happen?

-- 
Greg


From breamoreboy at gmail.com  Thu Apr 13 04:32:55 2017
From: breamoreboy at gmail.com (breamoreboy at gmail.com)
Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2017 01:32:55 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Read a text file into a Pandas DataFrame Table
In-Reply-To: <mailman.133.1492071308.2951.python-list@python.org>
References: <1040730225.1594206.1492071153498.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
 <1040730225.1594206.1492071153498@mail.yahoo.com>
 <mailman.133.1492071308.2951.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <d67051d8-1d5d-4135-94a1-3218eb1040f8@googlegroups.com>

On Thursday, April 13, 2017 at 9:15:18 AM UTC+1, David Shi wrote:
> Dear All,
> Can anyone help to read a text file into a Pandas DataFrame Table?
> Please see the link below.
> http://www.ebi.ac.uk/ena/data/warehouse/search?query=%22geo_circ(-0.587,-90.5713,170)%22&result=sequence_release&display=text
> 
> Regards.
> David

http://pandas.pydata.org/pandas-docs/stable/io.html#io-read-csv-table


From marko at pacujo.net  Thu Apr 13 04:57:33 2017
From: marko at pacujo.net (Marko Rauhamaa)
Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2017 11:57:33 +0300
Subject: Python and the need for speed
References: <768f9a44-5d90-4756-8a99-821253a491f8@googlegroups.com>
 <CAPTjJmrMWpzGd9Lf_sa-mscvqezY01U5kDCPRh07Nuivvxo8yg@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.5.1491710256.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <58e9e519$0$1528$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <CAPTjJmq4bCoXWryo5Jahh4he1_GP5LGjyKtJ1Mxs_XkNggi-6w@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.9.1491728745.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <58ec9192$0$1602$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <87a87mn8rc.fsf@nightsong.com>
 <58ed8c02$0$1620$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <069ed317-abab-4980-a06c-6eafdc029653@googlegroups.com>
 <CAPTjJmrHEkTNu8X+ztUgRpLtTrY2tf0RMFF2wtvy2+Ko3bfkmA@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.73.1491965716.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <87r30yjlfd.fsf@nightsong.com> <878tn6djq6.fsf@elektro.pacujo.net>
 <87inm9hqs3.fsf@nightsong.com>
Message-ID: <87shlcd6rm.fsf@elektro.pacujo.net>

Paul Rubin <no.email at nospam.invalid>:

> Marko Rauhamaa <marko at pacujo.net> writes:
>> As swapping is no longer considered normal on modern computers, the
>> memory-disk duality doesn't seem all that practical anymore. Rather,
>> you'd like to treat the disk analogously to network access and keep
>> RAM access separate.
>
> Yep. But opening disk files that way seems to require threads or extra
> processes.

At the moment, yes. But in the ideal world, everything would be
(optionally) nonblocking. So open(O_NONBLOCK) would return a file
descriptor before the system knows if the requested pathname refers to a
valid file.

Or maybe we should introduce a new "socket" family: AF_FILE. You would
do:

    f = socket.socket(socket.AF_FILE, socket.SOCK_STREAM, "rwb")
    f.setblocking(False)
    try:
        f.connect(pathname)
    except socket.error as e:
        if e.errno != errno.EINPROGRESS:
            raise
        ...
    ...


Marko


From rosuav at gmail.com  Thu Apr 13 04:58:48 2017
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2017 18:58:48 +1000
Subject: Calling dunder methods manually
In-Reply-To: <523039d1-5f43-4d73-932a-4b2bd130754e@googlegroups.com>
References: <58ef0cd3$0$1501$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <523039d1-5f43-4d73-932a-4b2bd130754e@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmohuCUeBQgXsiyGEwBYBmGarJ8Q4bgJ2Wm9BNP3z3OBPA@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Apr 13, 2017 at 4:18 PM, Rustom Mody <rustompmody at gmail.com> wrote:
> I believe it was ChrisA who gave a pithy summary of the situation:
> Dont CALL dunders
> But its fine to DEFINE them

As others have mentioned, you call dunders during the definitions of
dunders, mainly during subclassing. But from outside the class, you
generally shouldn't.

ChrisA


From marko at pacujo.net  Thu Apr 13 05:00:07 2017
From: marko at pacujo.net (Marko Rauhamaa)
Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2017 12:00:07 +0300
Subject: Python and the need for speed
References: <768f9a44-5d90-4756-8a99-821253a491f8@googlegroups.com>
 <CAPTjJmrMWpzGd9Lf_sa-mscvqezY01U5kDCPRh07Nuivvxo8yg@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.5.1491710256.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <58e9e519$0$1528$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <CAPTjJmq4bCoXWryo5Jahh4he1_GP5LGjyKtJ1Mxs_XkNggi-6w@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.9.1491728745.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <58ec9192$0$1602$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <87a87mn8rc.fsf@nightsong.com>
 <58ed8c02$0$1620$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <069ed317-abab-4980-a06c-6eafdc029653@googlegroups.com>
 <CAPTjJmrHEkTNu8X+ztUgRpLtTrY2tf0RMFF2wtvy2+Ko3bfkmA@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.73.1491965716.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <87r30yjlfd.fsf@nightsong.com> <878tn6djq6.fsf@elektro.pacujo.net>
 <el8qvvF9nfU1@mid.individual.net>
Message-ID: <87o9w0d6nc.fsf@elektro.pacujo.net>

Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing at canterbury.ac.nz>:

> Marko Rauhamaa wrote:
>> As swapping is no longer considered normal on modern computers,
>
> It isn't? When did that happen?

Thing is, the moment you start thrashing, the game is over.

Doubly so for Python, whose garbage collector will grind your machine to
a halt as it is traversing the process's heap (which is on the disk).


Marko


From python at lucidity.plus.com  Thu Apr 13 05:30:14 2017
From: python at lucidity.plus.com (Erik)
Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2017 10:30:14 +0100
Subject: Merging multiple sorted sequences.
In-Reply-To: <ocn5t5$8b3$1@blaine.gmane.org>
References: <d99cc694-2167-3d83-38ee-b2df61c0e6b5@lucidity.plus.com>
 <ocmagr$43e$1@blaine.gmane.org>
 <1815e8aa-473d-db5d-019a-d4440f61a8f8@lucidity.plus.com>
 <ocn5t5$8b3$1@blaine.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <36c05b52-309d-454c-63d5-53d076f631ea@lucidity.plus.com>

On 13/04/17 07:30, Peter Otten wrote:
> Verdict: not greedy ;)

Great (as I mentioned I did look at the code VERY quickly whilst VERY 
tired and at first glance missed that it's doing almost exactly what my 
code is doing except using the heapq to manage tracking the smallest 
value rather than sorting or scanning a flat list all the time).

Thanks for the clear demonstration - it looks like that's exactly what I 
need then (as others have also pointed out, too).

E.



From mail at timgolden.me.uk  Thu Apr 13 05:31:34 2017
From: mail at timgolden.me.uk (Tim Golden)
Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2017 10:31:34 +0100
Subject: Moderating the list [was: Python and the need for speed]
In-Reply-To: <CANy1k1jhnBiFhdqQyPqdkKxbPSYMNBGVrsWXvi7T9fjUpOHEkA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <768f9a44-5d90-4756-8a99-821253a491f8@googlegroups.com>
 <CAPTjJmrMWpzGd9Lf_sa-mscvqezY01U5kDCPRh07Nuivvxo8yg@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.5.1491710256.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <58e9e519$0$1528$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <27652c6d-2cb4-4f0c-9400-6aa2a3f9f855@googlegroups.com>
 <CAPTjJmq4xAt3rkONttzhqZ0byKhjrX=dHmDZn60jteOmkbia1w@mail.gmail.com>
 <9bdec2c0-6050-4b55-e4a0-96fcc9af6899@lucidity.plus.com>
 <CAPTjJmr4q=annJt0QpnRx+DW8=wpkLWTfumSHOC1BnsH5pqBdA@mail.gmail.com>
 <e63e4b03-2ecc-026b-3362-74c4a727394e@timgolden.me.uk>
 <mailman.44.1491899163.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <b37b1e07-9f1e-437c-9019-ed81ca745386@googlegroups.com>
 <58ecdae8$0$1602$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <ee2dd6be-82c7-454b-9c6e-2d3e79b328ac@googlegroups.com>
 <9fac840a-165f-789a-6631-ed913a1cdcf6@timgolden.me.uk>
 <CANy1k1jhnBiFhdqQyPqdkKxbPSYMNBGVrsWXvi7T9fjUpOHEkA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <0b06e80e-eb1f-889e-c4f2-5f0d5f158c09@timgolden.me.uk>

On 13/04/2017 03:39, Jason Friedman wrote:
>>
>> However, it's simply a technical fact: the thing which we moderate is the
>>> mailing list. We can control which posts make it through from the newsgroup
>>> by blocking them at the gateway. But the posts will continue to appear on
>>> comp.lang.python which is, as the description says, unmoderated.
>>>
>>
>> TJG
>
>
> Thank you, Tim and Ethan and the other moderators, for performing that
> function.
> It makes the reading experience more pleasant for me.
>

I looked, for the first time in a long while, at the GG mirror of the 
newsgroup. Hadn't realised how much of that really nasty all-caps spam 
we were blocking. (We set up some gateway rules when that started to 
become a problem so we just don't see it on the mailing list).

Most of the time we're just binning run-of-the-mill spam. Doesn't take 
too much effort if you keep on top of it, but it piles up quickly enough 
if you leave it for a bit!

TJG


From brecht__gmane at mos6581.org  Thu Apr 13 05:52:04 2017
From: brecht__gmane at mos6581.org (Brecht Machiels)
Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2017 11:52:04 +0200
Subject: Python and the need for speed
References: <768f9a44-5d90-4756-8a99-821253a491f8@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.5.1491710256.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <58e9e519$0$1528$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <mailman.9.1491728745.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <58ec9192$0$1602$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <oci97l$10u4$1@gioia.aioe.org>
 <58eceea2$0$1615$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <ocks9s$10uq$1@gioia.aioe.org>
 <mailman.88.1492008411.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <oclflm$4da$1@gioia.aioe.org>
 <3d3ce9b0-5388-42fe-9472-a511e0e10d8d@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <ocnho3$1bdl$1@gioia.aioe.org>

Bah. My newsreader lost my reply when the WiFi connection dropped 
out... attempt #2.

On 2017-04-12 18:45:16 +0000, bart4858 at gmail.com said:

> On Wednesday, 12 April 2017 16:04:53 UTC+1, Brecht Machiels  wrote:
>> On 2017-04-12 14:46:45 +0000, Michael Torrie said:
> 
>> It would be great if you could run the benchmark I mention in my first> 
>> link and share the results. Highly appreciated!
> 
> Were you ever able to isolate what it was that's taking up most of the 
> time? Either in general or in the bit that pypy has trouble with. Or is 
> execution time spread too widely?

It's been a while since I last focused on performance, but the profile 
is still pretty flat. It's easy enough to verify (see also the URL 
referenced below):

    python -m cProfile -o demo.prof `which rinoh` -f restructuredtext demo.rst
    python -m pstats demo.prof

    demo.prof% strip
    demo.prof% sort tottime
    demo.prof% stats 15

Thu Apr 13 10:59:19 2017    demo.prof

         35193174 function calls (27868271 primitive calls) in 22.461 seconds

   Ordered by: internal time
   List reduced from 5499 to 15 due to restriction <15>

   ncalls       tottime  percall  cumtime  percall filename:lineno(function)
6020041/321084   2.812    0.000    2.884    0.000 layout.py:152(document_part)
   287201        1.211    0.000    6.156    0.000 style.py:645(match)
    98788        0.901    0.000    1.965    0.000 version.py:198(__init__)
419928/232734    0.751    0.000   17.332    0.000 util.py:109(function_wrapper)
   344783        0.588    0.000    1.198    0.000 style.py:319(match)
  1302467        0.534    0.000    0.840    0.000 style.py:438(__hash__)
128992/83504     0.459    0.000   15.477    0.000 
style.py:556(get_style_recursive)
1472251/1472250  0.399    0.000    0.469    0.000 {built-in method 
builtins.isinstance}
   701320        0.395    0.000    0.679    0.000 parse.py:18(reader)
306381/10913     0.389    0.000    6.546    0.000 style.py:757(find_matches)
89622/86768      0.368    0.000    2.126    0.000 style.py:369(match)
      176        0.311    0.002    0.840    0.005 parse.py:157(check_sum)
339968/10360     0.308    0.000    0.417    0.000 dimension.py:239(__float__)
    95312        0.301    0.000    0.347    0.000 version.py:343(_cmpkey)
     2642        0.288    0.000    3.380    0.001 __init__.py:792(resolve)

> (I looked at your project but it's too large, and didn't get much 
> further with the github benchmark, which requires me to subscribe, but 
> the .sh file extensions don't seem too promising to someone on Windows.)

GitHub benchmark? .sh file extensions?

You can easily run some benchmarks following the instructions here (pip 
install): 
https://bitbucket.org/pypy/pypy/issues/2365/rinohtype-much-slower-on-pypy3 


As I commented on that issue, I have been able to run the benchmarks 
using PyPy3 5.7.1 beta, which is now significantly faster than CPython. 
That's very promising!

> Your program seems to be to do with typesetting. Is it possible to at 
> least least quantity the work that is being done in terms of total 
> bytes (and total files) of input, and bytes of output? That might 
> enable comparisons with other systems executing similar tasks, to see 
> if the Python version is taking unreasonably long.

The Sphinx benchmark's source reStructuredText files add up to 584 KB. 
The output PDF file is almost 3 MB (includes fonts and images). Note 
that the input document is parsed into a document tree where each 
paragraph is represented by an object of the Paragraph class, 
containing StyledText objects and so on. The total memory used is about 
1 GB!

LaTeX is orders of magnitude faster, but requires multiple passes. It's 
memory usage is probably much less since it works stream-based.

Best regards,
Brecht



From davidgshi at yahoo.co.uk  Thu Apr 13 06:06:26 2017
From: davidgshi at yahoo.co.uk (David Shi)
Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2017 10:06:26 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: Reading structured text file (non-CSV) into Pandas Dataframe
References: <1072392017.1753695.1492077986904.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <1072392017.1753695.1492077986904@mail.yahoo.com>

http://www.ebi.ac.uk/ena/data/warehouse/search?query=%22geo_circ(-0.587,-90.5713,170)%22&result=sequence_release&display=text
The above is a web link to a structured text file. ?It is not a CSV.
How can this text file be read into a Pandas Dataframe, so that further processing can be made?
Looking forward to hearing from you.
Regards.
David

From breamoreboy at gmail.com  Thu Apr 13 06:34:34 2017
From: breamoreboy at gmail.com (breamoreboy at gmail.com)
Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2017 03:34:34 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Reading structured text file (non-CSV) into Pandas Dataframe
In-Reply-To: <mailman.141.1492078152.2951.python-list@python.org>
References: <1072392017.1753695.1492077986904.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
 <1072392017.1753695.1492077986904@mail.yahoo.com>
 <mailman.141.1492078152.2951.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <3c59aa6d-8ec2-4588-93e8-f8b9b602f73c@googlegroups.com>

On Thursday, April 13, 2017 at 11:09:23 AM UTC+1, David Shi wrote:
> http://www.ebi.ac.uk/ena/data/warehouse/search?query=%22geo_circ(-0.587,-90.5713,170)%22&result=sequence_release&display=text
> The above is a web link to a structured text file. ?It is not a CSV.
> How can this text file be read into a Pandas Dataframe, so that further processing can be made?
> Looking forward to hearing from you.
> Regards.
> David

http://pandas.pydata.org/pandas-docs/stable/io.html


From davidgshi at yahoo.co.uk  Thu Apr 13 07:27:54 2017
From: davidgshi at yahoo.co.uk (David Shi)
Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2017 11:27:54 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: No subject
References: <1687361172.1861440.1492082874952.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <1687361172.1861440.1492082874952@mail.yahoo.com>

13.1. csv ? CSV File Reading and Writing ? Python 2.7.13 documentation





| 
|  | 
13.1. csv ? CSV File Reading and Writing ? Python 2.7.13 documentation
 |  |

 |



I am trying to parse this text file into a table.
How to use consecutive 3 spaces to work as delimiter with csv.reader?

Looking forward to hearing from you.
Regards.
David


From jsmcmahon3 at gmail.com  Thu Apr 13 07:31:02 2017
From: jsmcmahon3 at gmail.com (James McMahon)
Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2017 07:31:02 -0400
Subject: Check multiple file parms in single os.access?
Message-ID: <CAEqJCe1ewmAEaX0DQxoNdLiAaxNiz0CTn9k-8+AUex23cpqU6A@mail.gmail.com>

Hello. Am a Python newbie. I have researched and found examples how we can
check existence, readability, and write-ability on a given fully-qualified
filename for the current python script user. Evidently os.access is the way
to go, wrapped in some additional try and catch logic that helps insulate
us from changes in file state after our os.access checks.

I understand that os.stat() calls can be relatively expensive. I assume
likewise for os.access(). Since I'm going to apply my Python permission
check script within a NiFi ExecuteScript processor handling many flowfiles,
I seek any and all performance optimizations I possibly can.

Is there a way to mask the F_OK, R_OK, and W_OK in a single os.access
call? I'm guessing there must be, rather than doing this

if ( os.access(fqfname,os.F_OK) and os.access(fqfname,os.R_OK) and
os.access(fqfname,os.W_OK)) :

Thanks in advance for your insights. -Jim


From alister.ware at ntlworld.com  Thu Apr 13 07:31:40 2017
From: alister.ware at ntlworld.com (alister)
Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2017 11:31:40 GMT
Subject: "Goto" statement in Python
Message-ID: <wkJHA.687076$nT1.272081@fx44.am4>

On Thu, 13 Apr 2017 01:42:01 +0200, Mikhail V wrote:

> On 12 April 2017 at 02:44, Nathan Ernst <nathan.ernst at gmail.com> wrote:
>> goto is a misunderstood and much misaligned creature. It is a very
>> useful feature, but like nearly any programming construct can be
>> abused.
>>
>> Constructs like 'break', 'continue' or 'next' in languages like Python
>> or C/C++ are goto's with implied labels.
>>
>> As Mikhail said, goto's can be great to break out of nested loops (only
>> a handful of languages support named 'breaks').
>>
>> So, instead of:
>> bool found = false;
>> for (int i = 0; i = ...; ++i)
>> {
>>  for (int h = 0; h = ...; ++h)
>>  {
>>    if (some_condition)
>>      found = true;
>>  }
>>  if (found) break;
>> }
>>
>> You can have:
>>
>> for (int i = 0; i = ...; ++i)
>> {
>>  for (int h = 0; h = ...; ++h)
>>  {
>>    if (some_condition)
>>      goto found;
>>  }
>> }
>> // not found
>>
>> found:
>> // handle found
>>
>> The second is better for a number of reasons: it's clearer. It has
>> fewer variables (smaller stack), it has fewer branches (better for the
>> CPU's branch prediction), and it has fewer instructions (better for CPU
>> instruction cache).  This is a trivial, contrived example, but I've
>> seen more than 4x nested loops using an exit flag like this (at every
>> level of the loops) that could have been replaced with a lot less code.
>>
>> People need to stop drinking "X is considered harmful." Even Dijkstra
>> later lamented that his "Goto considered harmful" paper was
>> misinterpreted and misrepresented as advocating that goto should never
>> be used.
>>
>> Additionally, I'd recommend everyone read '"Considered Harmful" Essays
>> Considered Harmful': http://meyerweb.com/eric/comment/chech.html
>>
>> Regards,
>> Nate
>>
>>
> 
> 
> Here are recent related discussions about exiting from nested loops (at
> least seems to be so):
> https://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-ideas/2017-March/044932.html
> https://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-ideas/2017-March/045049.html
> 
> I personally have difficulties to fully understand some of the examples
> given in those proposals, namely that proposals were thought for
> other(?) purposes also,
> not only breaking nested loops.
> 
> At a first glance it seems to me that "goto" would solve the nested
> breaking problem and in a nice flexible way.
> (correct  me if I am wrong, probably I'm missing something)
> 
> So besides nested loops, in my practice I had occasions when I would
> want to use "goto".
> It would be fair to say that those occasions are not so common,
> but I'll try to give an example. Say, there is some pure procedural
> processing for some simple task and I don't want to make the script
> heavy and just care for the clarity:
> 
> ===========
> Log = ""
> S = "lorem ipsum"
> 
> for s in S:
>     if s == "i" :
>         message = "found on stage 1"
>         goto .output
> 
> S = S + " hello world"
> for s in S:
>     if s == "d" :
>         message = "found on stage 2"
>         goto .output
> 
> print "not found"
> print "S = ", S goto .exit
> 
> .output print message Log = Log + message
> 
> .exit:
> print "exiting"
> =============
> 
> For me it looks clear and I'd say easy to comprehend,
> Main critic would be obviously that it is not a good, *scalable
> application*, but quite often I don't even have this in mind, and just
> want to express a step-by-step direct instructions.
> In this case sticking any "def():.." inside the script does not make any
> sense for me. Simplicity here reflects the fact that this code
> represents exactly what I want the computer to do.
> 
> And a working variant of this would be like:
> 
> ===========
> Log = ""
> found = False Error = False S = "lorem ipsum"
> 
> if not found:
>     for s in S:
>         if s == "i" :
>             message = "found on stage 1"
>             found = True
> 
> if not found:
>     S = S + " hello world" for s in S:
>         if s == "d" :
>             message = "found on stage 2"
>             found = True
> 
> if not found:
>     Error = True print "Error : not found"
>     print "S = ", S
> 
> 
> if not Error:
>     print message Log = Log + message
> 
> print "exiting"
> ==============
> 
> This is working code, but I would say there is a lot extra indentation,
> and if I don't care about application scalability, those are just adding
> noise and I it needs some boolean flags.
> 
> I am not sure what examples to add here ...
> it seems to me that e.g. if I would use Python for modelling "pipeline"
> algorithms this could be helpful also.
> 
> Now if I count in the nested loops breaking problematic,
> seems that there is at least a prerequisite for existence of "goto". Am
> I right?
> 
> 
> Mikhail

I expect you could simulate most of these with a custom exception
for example break from nested loop:

class GoTo(Exception):
    pass

try:
    for i in range(100):
        print i
        for j in range (50):
            print j
            if i*j>60:
                raise GoTo
except GoTo:
    print "Exit Early"
print "end of loop"


 



-- 
/*
 * Buddy system. Hairy. You really aren't expected to understand this
 *
 */
	-- From /usr/src/linux/mm/page_alloc.cA


From bc at freeuk.com  Thu Apr 13 07:55:57 2017
From: bc at freeuk.com (bartc)
Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2017 12:55:57 +0100
Subject: Python and the need for speed
In-Reply-To: <58ef31ee$0$1501$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
References: <768f9a44-5d90-4756-8a99-821253a491f8@googlegroups.com>
 <58e9e519$0$1528$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <mailman.9.1491728745.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <58ec9192$0$1602$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <oci97l$10u4$1@gioia.aioe.org>
 <58eceea2$0$1615$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <CAE6NSRD=xU_mNECNBU2w92Br=vgHJJVqSruGFrPB=vrbpkj0Nw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPjBxg_49OD_CNXUAHKjxYsUiLab4s_fCs_Ast3LyymB82zTCA@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.68.1491956914.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <4277c149-e136-4d33-91d5-d011df9149f1@googlegroups.com>
 <58edcdd2$0$1501$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <fdb4a93a-688e-4a3f-bbc3-0df3ee1d2ac7@googlegroups.com>
 <54f1685d-1d2d-44b5-869e-a510569ba9d1@googlegroups.com>
 <lf5a87ln8k9.fsf@ling.helsinki.fi>
 <1d352948-9029-4b86-b2f1-2b52608109ea@googlegroups.com>
 <el7qd0Fpai9U1@mid.individual.net>
 <2759e6e0-ad95-466c-81f6-556133620999@googlegroups.com>
 <58ef31ee$0$1501$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
Message-ID: <5HJHA.649047$0k4.415939@fx37.am4>

On 13/04/2017 09:08, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
> On Wed, 12 Apr 2017 16:30:38 -0700, bart4858 wrote:
>
>> (Although I think Python would have difficulty in turning x+=1 into a
>> single opcode, if using normal object references and a shared object
>> model.)
>
> You know, since Python actually exists and isn't just a hypothetical
> language, we can find out what it actually does, not just guess :-)
>
>
>>>> import dis
>>>> code = compile("x += 1", "", "single")
>>>> dis.dis(code)
>   1           0 LOAD_NAME                0 (x)
>               3 LOAD_CONST               0 (1)
>               6 INPLACE_ADD
>               7 STORE_NAME               0 (x)
>              10 LOAD_CONST               1 (None)
>              13 RETURN_VALUE
>
>
> There's an op-code for looking up the name 'x', another to push the
> constant 1 on the stack, an op-code for "INPLACE_ADD", followed by an op-
> code for STORE_NAME again.
>
> In principle, we could replace the LOAD_CONST and INPLACE_ADD with a
> single op-code that combines the two. Whether that would speed anything
> up is another question.
>
> Is it possible to skip the STORE_NAME op-code?

If the starting-point is the existing byte-code of a program, then what 
can be done is more limited.

If the optimiser can generate new byte-codes, then it might be possible 
to add an extra indirection, so that:

   LOAD_NAME     (x)

instead becomes (for example):

   LOAD_NAME_REF    (x)
   INPLACE_ADD_REF

The latter doing all the work (indirectly access x, work out x+1 and 
create a new object for that if necessary, then rebind the original x to 
that new value, because now we have a reference to the name).

This means the byte-code set and the work some of them have to do is 
more complex, but it has been suggested that reducing the number of 
byte-code dispatches can be beneficial.

> If you knew *for sure*
> that the target (x) was a mutable object which implemented += using an in-
> place mutation, then you could, but the only built-in where that applies
> is list so even if you could guarantee x was a list, it hardly seems
> worth the bother.

I think x+=y is most usefully optimised when x and y are numbers. But 
numbers can't be modified in-place, not in general.

-- 
bartc


From bc at freeuk.com  Thu Apr 13 08:23:09 2017
From: bc at freeuk.com (bartc)
Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2017 13:23:09 +0100
Subject: Python and the need for speed
In-Reply-To: <5HJHA.649047$0k4.415939@fx37.am4>
References: <768f9a44-5d90-4756-8a99-821253a491f8@googlegroups.com>
 <58e9e519$0$1528$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <mailman.9.1491728745.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <58ec9192$0$1602$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <oci97l$10u4$1@gioia.aioe.org>
 <58eceea2$0$1615$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <CAE6NSRD=xU_mNECNBU2w92Br=vgHJJVqSruGFrPB=vrbpkj0Nw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPjBxg_49OD_CNXUAHKjxYsUiLab4s_fCs_Ast3LyymB82zTCA@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.68.1491956914.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <4277c149-e136-4d33-91d5-d011df9149f1@googlegroups.com>
 <58edcdd2$0$1501$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <fdb4a93a-688e-4a3f-bbc3-0df3ee1d2ac7@googlegroups.com>
 <54f1685d-1d2d-44b5-869e-a510569ba9d1@googlegroups.com>
 <lf5a87ln8k9.fsf@ling.helsinki.fi>
 <1d352948-9029-4b86-b2f1-2b52608109ea@googlegroups.com>
 <el7qd0Fpai9U1@mid.individual.net>
 <2759e6e0-ad95-466c-81f6-556133620999@googlegroups.com>
 <58ef31ee$0$1501$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <5HJHA.649047$0k4.415939@fx37.am4>
Message-ID: <B4KHA.951313$qK5.150694@fx45.am4>

On 13/04/2017 12:55, bartc wrote:
> On 13/04/2017 09:08, Steven D'Aprano wrote:

>> Is it possible to skip the STORE_NAME op-code?
>
> If the starting-point is the existing byte-code of a program, then what
> can be done is more limited.
>
> If the optimiser can generate new byte-codes, then it might be possible
> to add an extra indirection, so that:
>
>   LOAD_NAME     (x)
>
> instead becomes (for example):
>
>   LOAD_NAME_REF    (x)
>   INPLACE_ADD_REF

I meant INPLACE_INCR_REF




From rustompmody at gmail.com  Thu Apr 13 08:39:08 2017
From: rustompmody at gmail.com (Rustom Mody)
Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2017 05:39:08 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Swiss Ephemeris
In-Reply-To: <mailman.136.1492072806.2951.python-list@python.org>
References: <fa6a4548-68aa-49e1-8205-532f5c58eff7@googlegroups.com>
 <00dd01d2b319$eb9c77a0$27b23dae@sambora>
 <mailman.136.1492072806.2951.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <d9475212-aeec-448e-a5e2-35a7bbc85b94@googlegroups.com>

On Thursday, April 13, 2017 at 2:10:16 PM UTC+5:30, Deborah Swanson wrote:
> Rustom Mody wrote, on Monday, April 10, 2017 11:50 PM
> > 
> > On Monday, April 10, 2017 at 11:26:47 AM UTC+5:30, Deborah Swanson
> wrote:
> > > The great ancients were no less endowed with intelligence than we
> are, 
> > > they simply directed it to different ends.
> > 
> > And just when I was convinced by the all-knowers that my gpa 
> > was a monkey you've spoilt my complacence
> 
> Good! It's unhealthy the way modern folk strut around thinking they're
> the smartest humans to ever walk this earth. We've gone farther with
> technology than any other time or culture, but invention (and
> innovation) is only one aspect of intelligence.

Quote from Peter Landin, one of the precursors of modern functional programming:

Most papers in computer science describe how their author learned what someone else already knew

[And this dates from 60s/70s]

Applies beyond just CS?


From steve+python at pearwood.info  Thu Apr 13 08:50:47 2017
From: steve+python at pearwood.info (Steve D'Aprano)
Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2017 22:50:47 +1000
Subject: Python and the need for speed
References: <768f9a44-5d90-4756-8a99-821253a491f8@googlegroups.com>
 <CAPTjJmrMWpzGd9Lf_sa-mscvqezY01U5kDCPRh07Nuivvxo8yg@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.5.1491710256.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <58e9e519$0$1528$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <CAPTjJmq4bCoXWryo5Jahh4he1_GP5LGjyKtJ1Mxs_XkNggi-6w@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.9.1491728745.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <58ec9192$0$1602$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <87a87mn8rc.fsf@nightsong.com>
 <58ed8c02$0$1620$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <069ed317-abab-4980-a06c-6eafdc029653@googlegroups.com>
 <CAPTjJmrHEkTNu8X+ztUgRpLtTrY2tf0RMFF2wtvy2+Ko3bfkmA@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.73.1491965716.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <87r30yjlfd.fsf@nightsong.com> <878tn6djq6.fsf@elektro.pacujo.net>
 <el8qvvF9nfU1@mid.individual.net> <87o9w0d6nc.fsf@elektro.pacujo.net>
Message-ID: <58ef7429$0$1596$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>

On Thu, 13 Apr 2017 07:00 pm, Marko Rauhamaa wrote:

> Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing at canterbury.ac.nz>:
> 
>> Marko Rauhamaa wrote:
>>> As swapping is no longer considered normal on modern computers,
>>
>> It isn't? When did that happen?
> 
> Thing is, the moment you start thrashing, the game is over.

Indeed. But swapping != thrashing.


For what it's worth, three of the five sys admins I work with prefer not to
use swap space on the Linux desktops they build. I'm not sure what their
opinion is about servers. I *think* they would be okay with it if the
server was using SSD rather than spinning metal.



-- 
Steve
?Cheer up,? they said, ?things could be worse.? So I cheered up, and sure
enough, things got worse.



From marko at pacujo.net  Thu Apr 13 09:20:44 2017
From: marko at pacujo.net (Marko Rauhamaa)
Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2017 16:20:44 +0300
Subject: Python and the need for speed
References: <768f9a44-5d90-4756-8a99-821253a491f8@googlegroups.com>
 <CAPTjJmrMWpzGd9Lf_sa-mscvqezY01U5kDCPRh07Nuivvxo8yg@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.5.1491710256.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <58e9e519$0$1528$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <CAPTjJmq4bCoXWryo5Jahh4he1_GP5LGjyKtJ1Mxs_XkNggi-6w@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.9.1491728745.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <58ec9192$0$1602$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <87a87mn8rc.fsf@nightsong.com>
 <58ed8c02$0$1620$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <069ed317-abab-4980-a06c-6eafdc029653@googlegroups.com>
 <CAPTjJmrHEkTNu8X+ztUgRpLtTrY2tf0RMFF2wtvy2+Ko3bfkmA@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.73.1491965716.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <87r30yjlfd.fsf@nightsong.com> <878tn6djq6.fsf@elektro.pacujo.net>
 <el8qvvF9nfU1@mid.individual.net> <87o9w0d6nc.fsf@elektro.pacujo.net>
 <58ef7429$0$1596$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
Message-ID: <87a87kzbo3.fsf@elektro.pacujo.net>

Steve D'Aprano <steve+python at pearwood.info>:

> On Thu, 13 Apr 2017 07:00 pm, Marko Rauhamaa wrote:
>> Thing is, the moment you start thrashing, the game is over.
>
> Indeed. But swapping != thrashing.
>
> For what it's worth, three of the five sys admins I work with prefer
> not to use swap space on the Linux desktops they build. I'm not sure
> what their opinion is about servers. I *think* they would be okay with
> it if the server was using SSD rather than spinning metal.

Not sure if this is still valid:

   Still today Flash RAM cells built in SSDs have a limited lifespan.
   Every write (not read) cycle or better every erasure wears a memory
   cell and at some time it will stop working.

   <URL: https://askubuntu.com/questions/652337/why-no-swap-partition
   s-on-ssd-drives>


I really don't see much point with swap space nowadays, anyway.
Especially as it comes to production servers, you should reserve enough
RAM for worst-case needs. And make sure you really need that much RAM;
you probably don't.


Marko


From ben.usenet at bsb.me.uk  Thu Apr 13 09:46:15 2017
From: ben.usenet at bsb.me.uk (Ben Bacarisse)
Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2017 14:46:15 +0100
Subject: Check multiple file parms in single os.access?
References: <CAEqJCe1ewmAEaX0DQxoNdLiAaxNiz0CTn9k-8+AUex23cpqU6A@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.143.1492083066.2951.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <87o9w0xvx4.fsf@bsb.me.uk>

James McMahon <jsmcmahon3 at gmail.com> writes:

> Hello. Am a Python newbie. I have researched and found examples how we can
> check existence, readability, and write-ability on a given fully-qualified
> filename for the current python script user. Evidently os.access is the way
> to go, wrapped in some additional try and catch logic that helps insulate
> us from changes in file state after our os.access checks.

I'm not sure what you are saying here but I think it relates to a point
I was going to make...  In general, I'd say that testing for access is
not the way to go.  It is almost always better simply to try the
operations you need to do and deal with the failures as they occur.  The
bottom line is that you can't be sure the operation will work even if
os.access said it should a few moments ago.

> I understand that os.stat() calls can be relatively expensive. I
> assume likewise for os.access(). Since I'm going to apply my Python
> permission check script within a NiFi ExecuteScript processor handling
> many flowfiles, I seek any and all performance optimizations I
> possibly can.
>
> Is there a way to mask the F_OK, R_OK, and W_OK in a single os.access
> call? I'm guessing there must be, rather than doing this
>
> if ( os.access(fqfname,os.F_OK) and os.access(fqfname,os.R_OK) and
> os.access(fqfname,os.W_OK)) :

You can "or" together os.R_OK | os.W_OK into one call but you can can't
do that with F_OK.  Mind you, I'm not sure that matters since I can't
think of a case where you want to fail because os.F_OK fails but os.R_OK
and os.W_OK succeeds.  In other words, why not just test for os.R_OK |
os.W_OK?

Note that despite using the "or" operation to construct the parameter,
the test is an implied "and":

  os.access(fqfname, os.R_OK | os.W_OK)

is true only if both read and write access are permitted.

-- 
Ben.


From Jack at nichesoftsolutions.com  Thu Apr 13 10:12:41 2017
From: Jack at nichesoftsolutions.com (Jack at nichesoftsolutions.com)
Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2017 07:12:41 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: HOT LIST
Message-ID: <6a5fdb9c-41f0-4e69-8972-8a5c51a7c46e@googlegroups.com>

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From gbs.deadeye at gmail.com  Thu Apr 13 10:31:51 2017
From: gbs.deadeye at gmail.com (=?UTF-8?Q?Andre_M=C3=BCller?=)
Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2017 14:31:51 +0000
Subject: Merging multiple sorted sequences.
In-Reply-To: <36c05b52-309d-454c-63d5-53d076f631ea@lucidity.plus.com>
References: <d99cc694-2167-3d83-38ee-b2df61c0e6b5@lucidity.plus.com>
 <ocmagr$43e$1@blaine.gmane.org>
 <1815e8aa-473d-db5d-019a-d4440f61a8f8@lucidity.plus.com>
 <ocn5t5$8b3$1@blaine.gmane.org>
 <36c05b52-309d-454c-63d5-53d076f631ea@lucidity.plus.com>
Message-ID: <CAJL1nTQncckCYjAfTj4DhkeEupNLa-EXJDr2XpS-+OiM1piSrw@mail.gmail.com>

Hi,
when you have lists with different lengths and want to zip them, you should
look at itertools.zip_longest

Greetings
Andre


From rosuav at gmail.com  Thu Apr 13 10:35:20 2017
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2017 00:35:20 +1000
Subject: "Goto" statement in Python
In-Reply-To: <wkJHA.687076$nT1.272081@fx44.am4>
References: <wkJHA.687076$nT1.272081@fx44.am4>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmpUVY00qRTG2PkzeB7K2UcnYbKggTYm0Hj7ijTC9xQzvg@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Apr 13, 2017 at 9:31 PM, alister <alister.ware at ntlworld.com> wrote:
> I expect you could simulate most of these with a custom exception
> for example break from nested loop:
>
> class GoTo(Exception):
>     pass
>
> try:
>     for i in range(100):
>         print i
>         for j in range (50):
>             print j
>             if i*j>60:
>                 raise GoTo
> except GoTo:
>     print "Exit Early"
> print "end of loop"

Or you could turn it into a function and "return". Or if you feel like
it, you could turn the nested loops into a generator, then iterate
over it and break when you need to. There are many things you CAN do,
but to the true goto-aficionado, none of them is as clean.

Personally, I can't remember the last time I yearned for "goto" in
Python, and the only times I've ever wished for it or used it in other
languages have been multi-loop breaks or "for...else" blocks. And
neither is very frequent.

ChrisA


From bc at freeuk.com  Thu Apr 13 10:52:24 2017
From: bc at freeuk.com (bartc)
Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2017 15:52:24 +0100
Subject: "Goto" statement in Python
In-Reply-To: <mailman.145.1492094128.2951.python-list@python.org>
References: <wkJHA.687076$nT1.272081@fx44.am4>
 <CAPTjJmpUVY00qRTG2PkzeB7K2UcnYbKggTYm0Hj7ijTC9xQzvg@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.145.1492094128.2951.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <vgMHA.892496$3B6.564039@fx40.am4>

On 13/04/2017 15:35, Chris Angelico wrote:
> On Thu, Apr 13, 2017 at 9:31 PM, alister <alister.ware at ntlworld.com> wrote:
>> I expect you could simulate most of these with a custom exception
>> for example break from nested loop:
>>
>> class GoTo(Exception):
>>     pass
>>
>> try:
>>     for i in range(100):
>>         print i
>>         for j in range (50):
>>             print j
>>             if i*j>60:
>>                 raise GoTo
>> except GoTo:
>>     print "Exit Early"
>> print "end of loop"
>
> Or you could turn it into a function and "return". Or if you feel like
> it, you could turn the nested loops into a generator, then iterate
> over it and break when you need to.

I know this isn't the Python need-for-speed thread, but this is a 
classic example where the lack of one simple feature leads to using 
slower, more cumbersome ones.

'goto' would be one easy-to-execute byte-code; no variables, objects or 
types to worry about. If implemented properly (with the byte-code 
compiler using a dedicated name-space for labels) there would be no name 
lookups.

Function calls, returns and generators are rather more heavyweight in 
comparison.

  There are many things you CAN do,
> but to the true goto-aficionado, none of them is as clean.
>
> Personally, I can't remember the last time I yearned for "goto" in
> Python, and the only times I've ever wished for it or used it in other
> languages have been multi-loop breaks or "for...else" blocks. And
> neither is very frequent.

It might be a better idea to have a multi-level loop break then. This 
would also be an absolute jump byte-code.

-- 
bartc





From ian.g.kelly at gmail.com  Thu Apr 13 11:03:20 2017
From: ian.g.kelly at gmail.com (Ian Kelly)
Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2017 09:03:20 -0600
Subject: "Goto" statement in Python
In-Reply-To: <vgMHA.892496$3B6.564039@fx40.am4>
References: <wkJHA.687076$nT1.272081@fx44.am4>
 <CAPTjJmpUVY00qRTG2PkzeB7K2UcnYbKggTYm0Hj7ijTC9xQzvg@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.145.1492094128.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <vgMHA.892496$3B6.564039@fx40.am4>
Message-ID: <CALwzid=X-42OchihsGg1Am5pFk_Rv2Z=Xs+Pz9sD4dpZPe+epg@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Apr 13, 2017 at 8:52 AM, bartc <bc at freeuk.com> wrote:
> On 13/04/2017 15:35, Chris Angelico wrote:
>> Personally, I can't remember the last time I yearned for "goto" in
>> Python, and the only times I've ever wished for it or used it in other
>> languages have been multi-loop breaks or "for...else" blocks. And
>> neither is very frequent.
>
>
> It might be a better idea to have a multi-level loop break then. This would
> also be an absolute jump byte-code.

This has previously been proposed and rejected:
https://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-3136/
Rejection notice:
https://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-3000/2007-July/008663.html


From davidgshi at yahoo.co.uk  Thu Apr 13 11:04:12 2017
From: davidgshi at yahoo.co.uk (David Shi)
Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2017 15:04:12 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: No subject
References: <274646852.2132748.1492095852078.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <274646852.2132748.1492095852078@mail.yahoo.com>



Which VCF reader has been well tested and proven to be robust?
Looking forward to hearing from you.
Regards.
David

From eryksun at gmail.com  Thu Apr 13 11:11:25 2017
From: eryksun at gmail.com (eryk sun)
Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2017 15:11:25 +0000
Subject: Calling dunder methods manually
In-Reply-To: <CAMw+j7L3tyL_npgEbSff9neKqPjRAXnmpWZoUiZX2xBiPL=bkw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <58ef0cd3$0$1501$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <CACL+1asmMBr=m4Zc7hwvsouYLcFsMkNFkLBDBQLHm=jmYROsDQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAMw+j7L3tyL_npgEbSff9neKqPjRAXnmpWZoUiZX2xBiPL=bkw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CACL+1auryWOeazY3nKCZV+HJ4UehWqF9jVpCMrpM2cuLQea14Q@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Apr 13, 2017 at 8:24 AM, Chris Warrick <kwpolska at gmail.com> wrote:
> On 13 April 2017 at 09:43, eryk sun <eryksun at gmail.com> wrote:
>> The functions in the operator module implement abstract behavior (e.g.
>> PyNumber_Add in CPython):
>>
>>     >>> operator.__add__(C(), D())
>>     42
>
> Those functions also do not need underscores ? operator.add is a
> prettier way to achieve the same result.

I debated myself about which one to use in the example. The dunder
aliases were added for completeness, to clarify the relationship to
the corresponding special method, and I suppose to make it simpler to
dynamically call them. I opted to use the explicit name, even though
it's an alias because it seemed to make the example more consistent.
Normally I would call operator.add.


From marko at pacujo.net  Thu Apr 13 11:26:38 2017
From: marko at pacujo.net (Marko Rauhamaa)
Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2017 18:26:38 +0300
Subject: "Goto" statement in Python
References: <wkJHA.687076$nT1.272081@fx44.am4>
 <CAPTjJmpUVY00qRTG2PkzeB7K2UcnYbKggTYm0Hj7ijTC9xQzvg@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.145.1492094128.2951.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <8760i8z5u9.fsf@elektro.pacujo.net>

Chris Angelico <rosuav at gmail.com>:

> Personally, I can't remember the last time I yearned for "goto" in
> Python, and the only times I've ever wished for it or used it in other
> languages have been multi-loop breaks or "for...else" blocks. And
> neither is very frequent.

I have occasionally felt the urge to try "goto" in my C code, but having
written it, I have taken it out. It just doesn't make the code look more
elegant or robust. Unlike "break" or "return," "goto" makes me uneasy
about variable scope and lifetime.

Maybe it would work in some state machine implementation. Some 30 years
ago I wrote a compiler. The parser came out nicer with methodical use of
"goto," but even then, I used a parsing-specific macro to wrap it.


Marko


From pcmanticore at gmail.com  Thu Apr 13 11:34:09 2017
From: pcmanticore at gmail.com (Claudiu Popa)
Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2017 18:34:09 +0300
Subject: Pylint 1.7.0 was released
Message-ID: <CAMy=CLo2cN8yNsXEZEqxj+wDP+qAOa_EWzuPcqcn=bMyntpY5w@mail.gmail.com>

Hey folks,

We just released a new version of Pylint, 1.7.0, after a long period
of time since the last release.

You can find more details about what's new in this release over here:
https://pylint.readthedocs.io/en/latest/whatsnew/1.7.html


Thanks and enjoy,
Claudiu


From gordon at panix.com  Thu Apr 13 12:07:24 2017
From: gordon at panix.com (John Gordon)
Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2017 16:07:24 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: Visit All URLs with selenium python
References: <43f70312-83ba-457e-a83f-7b46e5d2a08f@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <oco7ns$rqj$1@reader1.panix.com>

In <43f70312-83ba-457e-a83f-7b46e5d2a08f at googlegroups.com> Nicole <bostananwar at gmail.com> writes:

> it just visit first url not all .. Can anybody help how to fix that..

Have you tried some basic debugging, for example printing p_links to
verify that it contains what you expected, and then printing each
url in the loop?

-- 
John Gordon                   A is for Amy, who fell down the stairs
gordon at panix.com              B is for Basil, assaulted by bears
                                -- Edward Gorey, "The Gashlycrumb Tinies"



From mikhailwas at gmail.com  Thu Apr 13 12:23:57 2017
From: mikhailwas at gmail.com (Mikhail V)
Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2017 18:23:57 +0200
Subject: "Goto" statement in Python
In-Reply-To: <ocmfta$9j1$1@dont-email.me>
References: <CAE6NSRC=M1E+1_rX6T2Fa-zgUarwMvAn91W2SyNkodGhj6RKhQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.110.1492041148.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <ocmfta$9j1$1@dont-email.me>
Message-ID: <CAE6NSRDLbFk7gNAugWfsUGUSsmDmD5WwZkQA9SwREStV5d7h7Q@mail.gmail.com>

On 13 April 2017 at 02:17, Rob Gaddi <rgaddi at highlandtechnology.invalid> wrote:

>
> def finder:
>   for s in S:
>     if s == 'i':
>       return 'found on stage 1'
>
>   S = S + ' hello world'
>   for s in S:
>     if s == 'd':
>       return 'found on stage 2'
>
>   raise ValueError('not found; S=' + S)
>
> try:
>   message = finder()
>   print(message)
>   log += message
> except ValueError as e:
>   print(e)
>

Mother of God... This is like placing some abstract art into a gallery
of monumentalism art.
I am upset and need some healing therapy now.
I'll stay here  for a while:
https://www.pinterest.com/soren19/arqbrt/


On 13 April 2017 at 13:31, alister <alister.ware at ntlworld.com> wrote:
>
> I expect you could simulate most of these with a custom exception
> for example break from nested loop:
>
> class GoTo(Exception):
>     pass
>
> try:
>     for i in range(100):
>         print i
>         for j in range (50):
>             print j
>             if i*j>60:
>                 raise GoTo
> except GoTo:
>     print "Exit Early"
> print "end of loop"
>

Now I wonder, have we already collected *all* bells and whistles of Python
in these two examples, or is there something else for expressing trivial thing.


Mikhail


From ian.g.kelly at gmail.com  Thu Apr 13 12:48:38 2017
From: ian.g.kelly at gmail.com (Ian Kelly)
Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2017 10:48:38 -0600
Subject: "Goto" statement in Python
In-Reply-To: <CAE6NSRDLbFk7gNAugWfsUGUSsmDmD5WwZkQA9SwREStV5d7h7Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAE6NSRC=M1E+1_rX6T2Fa-zgUarwMvAn91W2SyNkodGhj6RKhQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.110.1492041148.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <ocmfta$9j1$1@dont-email.me>
 <CAE6NSRDLbFk7gNAugWfsUGUSsmDmD5WwZkQA9SwREStV5d7h7Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CALwzid=53FhAkbus8LYCxPMyiouQSf=n5Wizq_H7J1imWy58tA@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Apr 13, 2017 at 10:23 AM, Mikhail V <mikhailwas at gmail.com> wrote:
> Now I wonder, have we already collected *all* bells and whistles of Python
> in these two examples, or is there something else for expressing trivial thing.

Functions and exceptions are considered "bells and whistles"?


From rustompmody at gmail.com  Thu Apr 13 13:13:12 2017
From: rustompmody at gmail.com (Rustom Mody)
Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2017 10:13:12 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: "Goto" statement in Python
In-Reply-To: <mailman.151.1492102162.2951.python-list@python.org>
References: <CAE6NSRC=M1E+1_rX6T2Fa-zgUarwMvAn91W2SyNkodGhj6RKhQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.110.1492041148.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <ocmfta$9j1$1@dont-email.me>
 <CAE6NSRDLbFk7gNAugWfsUGUSsmDmD5WwZkQA9SwREStV5d7h7Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALwzid=53FhAkbus8LYCxPMyiouQSf=n5Wizq_H7J1imWy58tA@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.151.1492102162.2951.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <44db5cea-8831-4951-baa0-a50d99a79b1c@googlegroups.com>

On Thursday, April 13, 2017 at 10:19:33 PM UTC+5:30, Ian wrote:
> On Thu, Apr 13, 2017 at 10:23 AM, Mikhail V  wrote:
> > Now I wonder, have we already collected *all* bells and whistles of Python
> > in these two examples, or is there something else for expressing trivial thing.
> 
> Functions and exceptions are considered "bells and whistles"?

People's tastes differ? violently on
- food
- music
- opposite sex

What to do??
Ask Trump?
[I guess we now need a Godwin 2.0 with :s/Hitler/Trump ]

I wonder if you noticed that you classed functions together with exceptions...
presumably as basic elements.
And that the bedrock of much contemporary computer technology ? linux-kernel,
even (C)Python itself, viz C ? does not support one of these


From bc at freeuk.com  Thu Apr 13 13:17:24 2017
From: bc at freeuk.com (bartc)
Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2017 18:17:24 +0100
Subject: "Goto" statement in Python
In-Reply-To: <mailman.146.1492095843.2951.python-list@python.org>
References: <wkJHA.687076$nT1.272081@fx44.am4>
 <CAPTjJmpUVY00qRTG2PkzeB7K2UcnYbKggTYm0Hj7ijTC9xQzvg@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.145.1492094128.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <vgMHA.892496$3B6.564039@fx40.am4>
 <CALwzid=X-42OchihsGg1Am5pFk_Rv2Z=Xs+Pz9sD4dpZPe+epg@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.146.1492095843.2951.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <roOHA.956579$qK5.300893@fx45.am4>

On 13/04/2017 16:03, Ian Kelly wrote:
> On Thu, Apr 13, 2017 at 8:52 AM, bartc <bc at freeuk.com> wrote:
>> On 13/04/2017 15:35, Chris Angelico wrote:
>>> Personally, I can't remember the last time I yearned for "goto" in
>>> Python, and the only times I've ever wished for it or used it in other
>>> languages have been multi-loop breaks or "for...else" blocks. And
>>> neither is very frequent.
>>
>>
>> It might be a better idea to have a multi-level loop break then. This would
>> also be an absolute jump byte-code.
>
> This has previously been proposed and rejected:
> https://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-3136/

Poorly presented I think with, what, five possible ways of adding it?

> Rejection notice:
> https://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-3000/2007-July/008663.html

Rejected because it would only occur in complex code? That's just where 
it would help!

I think it should be in for completeness, and to avoid this bug in the 
language; start with:

  for i in range(n):
     break;

break inside a loop; that's currently allowed. Now for reasons of logic, 
that break is put inside an 'if' branch:

  for i in range(n):
     if cond:
        break;

The break still works. But if, for any reason at all, that break ended 
up inside a nested loop instead of a nested if:

  for i in range(n):
     while cond:
        break;

Now it no longer works as expected. The break has been 'captured' by the 
new loop.

(IME most breaks from loops are either from the innermost loop, or from 
the outermost one. For these two cases, you don't need naming, labelling 
or numbering of loops. Just 'break [inner]' or 'break outer'.)

-- 
bartc



From mikhailwas at gmail.com  Thu Apr 13 13:25:51 2017
From: mikhailwas at gmail.com (Mikhail V)
Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2017 19:25:51 +0200
Subject: "Goto" statement in Python
In-Reply-To: <CALwzid=53FhAkbus8LYCxPMyiouQSf=n5Wizq_H7J1imWy58tA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAE6NSRC=M1E+1_rX6T2Fa-zgUarwMvAn91W2SyNkodGhj6RKhQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.110.1492041148.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <ocmfta$9j1$1@dont-email.me>
 <CAE6NSRDLbFk7gNAugWfsUGUSsmDmD5WwZkQA9SwREStV5d7h7Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALwzid=53FhAkbus8LYCxPMyiouQSf=n5Wizq_H7J1imWy58tA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAE6NSRC-5J86-BL4mgGxCHzhfubJFF_5BVsk39WL4ewrJw04ug@mail.gmail.com>

On 13 April 2017 at 18:48, Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Thu, Apr 13, 2017 at 10:23 AM, Mikhail V <mikhailwas at gmail.com> wrote:
>> Now I wonder, have we already collected *all* bells and whistles of Python
>> in these two examples, or is there something else for expressing trivial thing.
>
> Functions and exceptions are considered "bells and whistles"?

You mean probably classes and exceptions? For me, indeed they are,
but it depends.

And breaking the code into def() chunks that are not
functions but just chunks... I don't know, looks bad.


From rgaddi at highlandtechnology.invalid  Thu Apr 13 13:26:42 2017
From: rgaddi at highlandtechnology.invalid (Rob Gaddi)
Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2017 10:26:42 -0700
Subject: "Goto" statement in Python
In-Reply-To: <44db5cea-8831-4951-baa0-a50d99a79b1c@googlegroups.com>
References: <CAE6NSRC=M1E+1_rX6T2Fa-zgUarwMvAn91W2SyNkodGhj6RKhQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.110.1492041148.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <ocmfta$9j1$1@dont-email.me>
 <CAE6NSRDLbFk7gNAugWfsUGUSsmDmD5WwZkQA9SwREStV5d7h7Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALwzid=53FhAkbus8LYCxPMyiouQSf=n5Wizq_H7J1imWy58tA@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.151.1492102162.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <44db5cea-8831-4951-baa0-a50d99a79b1c@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <ococ6q$n1s$1@dont-email.me>

On 04/13/2017 10:13 AM, Rustom Mody wrote:
> On Thursday, April 13, 2017 at 10:19:33 PM UTC+5:30, Ian wrote:
>> On Thu, Apr 13, 2017 at 10:23 AM, Mikhail V  wrote:
>>> Now I wonder, have we already collected *all* bells and whistles of Python
>>> in these two examples, or is there something else for expressing trivial thing.
>>
>> Functions and exceptions are considered "bells and whistles"?
>
> People's tastes differ? violently on
> - food
> - music
> - opposite sex
>
> What to do??
> Ask Trump?
> [I guess we now need a Godwin 2.0 with :s/Hitler/Trump ]
>
> I wonder if you noticed that you classed functions together with exceptions...
> presumably as basic elements.
> And that the bedrock of much contemporary computer technology ? linux-kernel,
> even (C)Python itself, viz C ? does not support one of these
>

No, C doesn't support exception handling.  As a result, handling error 
conditions in C is a huge pain for which (forward-only) goto is often, 
while not the only remedy, the least painful one.  Or if you've really 
developed a need for self-harm, setjmp/longjmp.  Or, as is more 
frequently the case in code in the wild, error conditions simply don't 
get checked for and come as a surprise and/or segfault later on.

Python is a radically higher level language than C.  Python supports 
different structures than C, largely and specifically so that you don't 
have to do things in some of the error-prone ways you would do them in 
C.  Therefore, a given task should be solved differently in Python than 
in C.

I try very hard to write Python when I write Python, and to write C when 
I write C.  And to write through the tears when I write C++.

-- 
Rob Gaddi, Highland Technology -- www.highlandtechnology.com
Email address domain is currently out of order.  See above to fix.


From tomuxiong at gmx.com  Thu Apr 13 13:31:18 2017
From: tomuxiong at gmx.com (Thomas Nyberg)
Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2017 10:31:18 -0700
Subject: "Goto" statement in Python
In-Reply-To: <CAE6NSRC=M1E+1_rX6T2Fa-zgUarwMvAn91W2SyNkodGhj6RKhQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAE6NSRC=M1E+1_rX6T2Fa-zgUarwMvAn91W2SyNkodGhj6RKhQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <eac4c014-005a-8757-5f90-4277460960f9@gmx.com>

On 04/12/2017 04:42 PM, Mikhail V wrote:
> For me it looks clear and I'd say easy to comprehend,
> Main critic would be obviously that it is not
> a good, *scalable application*, but quite often I don't
> even have this in mind, and just want to express a
> step-by-step direct instructions.

I think that scalability is the only objectively reasonable (at least as
far as this kind of argument could be objective) argument against gotos.
They're not fundamentally a bad idea (the people who put them into
certain languages weren't stupid after all), but they do seem to create
a maintenance and complexity burden as the codebase grows. But if you're
talking one off single scripts as your example, I think you can safely
use many habits considered bad by most. That's simply not the scenario
where gotos create a problem.

There are of course many different ways you can get around using them,
but there are certainly cases where that's exactly what you want and a
substitute will always be a substitute and it may feel lacking. It's
just a matter of taste really.

Cheers,
Thomas


From ian.g.kelly at gmail.com  Thu Apr 13 13:33:48 2017
From: ian.g.kelly at gmail.com (Ian Kelly)
Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2017 11:33:48 -0600
Subject: "Goto" statement in Python
In-Reply-To: <44db5cea-8831-4951-baa0-a50d99a79b1c@googlegroups.com>
References: <CAE6NSRC=M1E+1_rX6T2Fa-zgUarwMvAn91W2SyNkodGhj6RKhQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.110.1492041148.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <ocmfta$9j1$1@dont-email.me>
 <CAE6NSRDLbFk7gNAugWfsUGUSsmDmD5WwZkQA9SwREStV5d7h7Q@mail.gmail.com>
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Message-ID: <CALwzidnmpzwxDyn_dv-zRmEoHyKwiguO2HYaXXsr+Ef1TgNDZw@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Apr 13, 2017 at 11:13 AM, Rustom Mody <rustompmody at gmail.com> wrote:
> What to do??
> Ask Trump?
> [I guess we now need a Godwin 2.0 with :s/Hitler/Trump ]

Not even close. Whatever one's opinion may be of Trump, he hasn't
murdered millions of people.


From rgaddi at highlandtechnology.invalid  Thu Apr 13 13:35:53 2017
From: rgaddi at highlandtechnology.invalid (Rob Gaddi)
Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2017 10:35:53 -0700
Subject: "Goto" statement in Python
In-Reply-To: <8760i8z5u9.fsf@elektro.pacujo.net>
References: <wkJHA.687076$nT1.272081@fx44.am4>
 <CAPTjJmpUVY00qRTG2PkzeB7K2UcnYbKggTYm0Hj7ijTC9xQzvg@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.145.1492094128.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <8760i8z5u9.fsf@elektro.pacujo.net>
Message-ID: <ococo1$p0r$1@dont-email.me>

On 04/13/2017 08:26 AM, Marko Rauhamaa wrote:
> Chris Angelico <rosuav at gmail.com>:
>
>> Personally, I can't remember the last time I yearned for "goto" in
>> Python, and the only times I've ever wished for it or used it in other
>> languages have been multi-loop breaks or "for...else" blocks. And
>> neither is very frequent.
>
> I have occasionally felt the urge to try "goto" in my C code, but having
> written it, I have taken it out. It just doesn't make the code look more
> elegant or robust. Unlike "break" or "return," "goto" makes me uneasy
> about variable scope and lifetime.
>
> Maybe it would work in some state machine implementation. Some 30 years
> ago I wrote a compiler. The parser came out nicer with methodical use of
> "goto," but even then, I used a parsing-specific macro to wrap it.
>
>
> Marko
>

You see it all the time in kernel code or when doing I/O.  A pretty 
common pattern is:

   int return_val = 1;
   if (init_thing(x)) goto bk1;
   if (init_thing(y)) goto bk2;
   if (init_thing(z)) goto bk3;

   do_things_with(x, y, z);
   return_val = 0;

   bk3:  cleanup_thing(z);
   bk2:  cleanup_thing(y);
   bk1:  cleanup_thing(x);
   return return_val;

But the point is, in Python we have context managers and exceptions and 
classes, all of which serve to allow you to not have to explicitly lay 
out how to wind yourself step-by-step back out of the situation you've 
gotten yourself into.

-- 
Rob Gaddi, Highland Technology -- www.highlandtechnology.com
Email address domain is currently out of order.  See above to fix.


From ian.g.kelly at gmail.com  Thu Apr 13 13:38:13 2017
From: ian.g.kelly at gmail.com (Ian Kelly)
Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2017 11:38:13 -0600
Subject: "Goto" statement in Python
In-Reply-To: <CAE6NSRC-5J86-BL4mgGxCHzhfubJFF_5BVsk39WL4ewrJw04ug@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAE6NSRC=M1E+1_rX6T2Fa-zgUarwMvAn91W2SyNkodGhj6RKhQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.110.1492041148.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <ocmfta$9j1$1@dont-email.me>
 <CAE6NSRDLbFk7gNAugWfsUGUSsmDmD5WwZkQA9SwREStV5d7h7Q@mail.gmail.com>
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Message-ID: <CALwzidkBQFFR5THUyOmx9-7tXEV8F9nL1LXWV5dPD8OcnBS-_A@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Apr 13, 2017 at 11:25 AM, Mikhail V <mikhailwas at gmail.com> wrote:
> On 13 April 2017 at 18:48, Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly at gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Thu, Apr 13, 2017 at 10:23 AM, Mikhail V <mikhailwas at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Now I wonder, have we already collected *all* bells and whistles of Python
>>> in these two examples, or is there something else for expressing trivial thing.
>>
>> Functions and exceptions are considered "bells and whistles"?
>
> You mean probably classes and exceptions? For me, indeed they are,
> but it depends.

No, I meant functions (the first example) and exceptions (the second example).

> And breaking the code into def() chunks that are not
> functions but just chunks... I don't know, looks bad.

I don't know what you mean by this. There is no such thing as a "def()
chunk" that is not a function.


From rustompmody at gmail.com  Thu Apr 13 13:39:24 2017
From: rustompmody at gmail.com (Rustom Mody)
Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2017 10:39:24 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: "Goto" statement in Python
In-Reply-To: <ococ6q$n1s$1@dont-email.me>
References: <CAE6NSRC=M1E+1_rX6T2Fa-zgUarwMvAn91W2SyNkodGhj6RKhQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.110.1492041148.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <ocmfta$9j1$1@dont-email.me>
 <CAE6NSRDLbFk7gNAugWfsUGUSsmDmD5WwZkQA9SwREStV5d7h7Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALwzid=53FhAkbus8LYCxPMyiouQSf=n5Wizq_H7J1imWy58tA@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.151.1492102162.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <44db5cea-8831-4951-baa0-a50d99a79b1c@googlegroups.com>
 <ococ6q$n1s$1@dont-email.me>
Message-ID: <633df0f9-10c9-4cff-ba86-4a1270b4b19c@googlegroups.com>

On Thursday, April 13, 2017 at 10:56:53 PM UTC+5:30, Rob Gaddi wrote:
> On 04/13/2017 10:13 AM, Rustom Mody wrote:
> > On Thursday, April 13, 2017 at 10:19:33 PM UTC+5:30, Ian wrote:
> >> On Thu, Apr 13, 2017 at 10:23 AM, Mikhail V  wrote:
> >>> Now I wonder, have we already collected *all* bells and whistles of Python
> >>> in these two examples, or is there something else for expressing trivial thing.
> >>
> >> Functions and exceptions are considered "bells and whistles"?
> >
> > People's tastes differ? violently on
> > - food
> > - music
> > - opposite sex
> >
> > What to do??
> > Ask Trump?
> > [I guess we now need a Godwin 2.0 with :s/Hitler/Trump ]
> >
> > I wonder if you noticed that you classed functions together with exceptions...
> > presumably as basic elements.
> > And that the bedrock of much contemporary computer technology ? linux-kernel,
> > even (C)Python itself, viz C ? does not support one of these
> >
> 
> No, C doesn't support exception handling.  As a result, handling error 
> conditions in C is a huge pain for which (forward-only) goto is often, 
> while not the only remedy, the least painful one.  Or if you've really 
> developed a need for self-harm, setjmp/longjmp.  Or, as is more 
> frequently the case in code in the wild, error conditions simply don't 
> get checked for and come as a surprise and/or segfault later on.
> 
> Python is a radically higher level language than C.  Python supports 
> different structures than C, largely and specifically so that you don't 
> have to do things in some of the error-prone ways you would do them in 
> C.  Therefore, a given task should be solved differently in Python than 
> in C.

You are answering to a different issue than I was: Sure C and python are done
differently [your point]
I was saying that if Mikhail finds exceptions (and as he later explained 
classes) as a heavy-duty solution to a control-flow issue, he has a point

> 
> I try very hard to write Python when I write Python, and to write C when 
> I write C.  And to write through the tears when I write C++.

C++ has exceptions but no gc
Haskell has gc (like python) but no exceptions
So that suggests that while desirable, both are not in the bare-minimum set

My broader point (vive la Trump) was that if we learn to actively tolerate 
people with views wildly far from ours, the world would be a better place.

So what would I say to (people like) Mikhail?
"Here's the sources mate! Fork it! And cheers!"


From steve+python at pearwood.info  Thu Apr 13 13:43:55 2017
From: steve+python at pearwood.info (Steve D'Aprano)
Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2017 03:43:55 +1000
Subject: Goto Considered Harmful [was Re: Python and the need for speed]
References: <768f9a44-5d90-4756-8a99-821253a491f8@googlegroups.com>
 <CAPTjJmrMWpzGd9Lf_sa-mscvqezY01U5kDCPRh07Nuivvxo8yg@mail.gmail.com>
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 <el01fmF900sU1@mid.individual.net>
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Message-ID: <58efb8de$0$1618$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>

On Wed, 12 Apr 2017 10:44 am, Nathan Ernst wrote:

> goto is a misunderstood and much misaligned creature. It is a very useful
> feature, but like nearly any programming construct can be abused.

Indeed. The problem is that it is abused far more often than it is used
correctly -- or at least it was, back in the days when people routinely
used GOTO. People don't abuse GOTO much these days only because most
languages don't encourage, or even allow, GOTO.


> Constructs like 'break', 'continue' or 'next' in languages like Python or
> C/C++ are goto's with implied labels.

They are *restricted* and *structured* jumps, which is not the same thing as
an *unrestricted and unstructured* GOTO.

In much the same way that hiring a private security guard is not quite the
same thing as declaring martial law and telling the soldiers they have
carte blanche to shoot to kill for any reason at all.


> As Mikhail said, goto's can be great to break out of nested loops (only a
> handful of languages support named 'breaks').

I have to ask... 

if named breaks are so great, why don't more languages support them?


> People need to stop drinking "X is considered harmful." 

That's one opinion.


> Even Dijkstra 
> later lamented that his "Goto considered harmful" paper was misinterpreted
> and misrepresented as advocating that goto should never be used.

Citation required.

1987 was pretty much the last gasp of the unstructured programming paradigm,
the last time that anyone made a serious case for it. Frank Rubin responded
to Dijkstra's famous letter with a response

"GOTO Considered Harmful Considered Harmful"

Unfortunately, his response was not so much a refutation of Dijkstra, but
the last desperate and failed defence of an all-but-dead programming style.

Dijkstra responded to Rubin in an especially cranky (and rather pedantic and
arrogant manner). You can read his response here:

https://www.cs.utexas.edu/~EWD/transcriptions/EWD10xx/EWD1009.html

Bottom line: Rubin's code was buggy, and the problem he posed could be
solved without GOTO.

More on the history of Dijkstra's letter here:

https://blog.codinghorror.com/id-consider-that-harmful-too/

and a connection to Python:

http://joshuah.scripts.mit.edu/blog/?p=195



> Additionally, I'd recommend everyone read '"Considered Harmful" Essays
> Considered Harmful': http://meyerweb.com/eric/comment/chech.html

The author makes a number of dogmatic claims without offering a shred of
evidence for any of them. He expects us to simply believe on his say-so
alone that "Considered Harmful" essays are counter-productive to their own
cause, a clear and obvious case of "concern trolling" if I've ever seen
one.

His essay is full of weasel words and unsupported opinions masquerading as
facts:

* Considered Harmful essays "often" inflame the debate (how often? 1% 
  of the time or 99% of the time? how do you know?)

* supporters of the opposing view are "more likely" to dig in and 
  defend their position (how much more like? how do you know?)

* Considered Harmful essays have "a strong tendency to alienate neutral
  parties" (how strong? how do you know?)

and he contradicts himself: Considered Harmful essays are "boring cliches"
that nobody bothers to read or pay any attention to.

Strangely enough, despite Considered Harmful being a boring, counter-
productive cliche that harms your own cause, the author Eric Meyer chose to
write one himself. Recognising this contradiction, he tries to pass it off
as a joke.

And what is his cause? To argue against a strawman, that Considered Harmful
essays cannot and do not "engage in reasoned debate". They don't? Says who?
Why can't a paper that draws a firm and opinionated conclusion (as Meyer
himself does) also be reasoned?

Meyer himself doesn't sit on the fence. He argues against Considered Harmful
essays. Not very convincingly, but he does take a position against them.
Why doesn't he follow his own advice, and describe the strengths and
weaknesses of Considered Harmful essays?

So there's one rule for Meyer, and everyone else should write wishy-washy
fence-sitting essays that draw no firm conclusions.

Meyer states that a "benefits and weaknesses" essay will allow people
to "more readily find a compromise solution" without questioning whether or
not a compromise solution is either possible or desirable. For example:

- A language cannot compromise on the question of whether to allow 
  COMEFROM: it either supports that *deliberately awful* language
  misfeature, or it doesn't. 

- Even if a compromise position is *possible*, that doesn't mean that
  one is desirable. Should array indexing start at 0 or 1, or shall
  we compromise with 0.5? 

Meyer implicitly assumes that technical questions are won by "reasoned
debate", which goes against the history of science and technology and in
fact all of human history. Very few questions can be resolved by mere
facts. Rather, they are resolved by *persuasion*, and despite Meyer's
concern-trolling, it does appear that in at least two cases "Considered
Harmful" essays have persuaded people to turn against the dominant
programming paradigm:

- Unstructured GOTOs
- Global variables.

In both cases, the dominant paradigm has turned around almost 180?, and now
the prevailing wisdom is that both GOTO and global variables should be used
as little as possible, if at all.

TL;DR:

Meyer's "Considered Harmful Essays Considered Harmful" essay is hypocritical
junk, and should be considered harmful.



-- 
Steve
?Cheer up,? they said, ?things could be worse.? So I cheered up, and sure
enough, things got worse.



From ian.g.kelly at gmail.com  Thu Apr 13 13:48:37 2017
From: ian.g.kelly at gmail.com (Ian Kelly)
Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2017 11:48:37 -0600
Subject: "Goto" statement in Python
In-Reply-To: <633df0f9-10c9-4cff-ba86-4a1270b4b19c@googlegroups.com>
References: <CAE6NSRC=M1E+1_rX6T2Fa-zgUarwMvAn91W2SyNkodGhj6RKhQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.110.1492041148.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <ocmfta$9j1$1@dont-email.me>
 <CAE6NSRDLbFk7gNAugWfsUGUSsmDmD5WwZkQA9SwREStV5d7h7Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALwzid=53FhAkbus8LYCxPMyiouQSf=n5Wizq_H7J1imWy58tA@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.151.1492102162.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <44db5cea-8831-4951-baa0-a50d99a79b1c@googlegroups.com>
 <ococ6q$n1s$1@dont-email.me>
 <633df0f9-10c9-4cff-ba86-4a1270b4b19c@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <CALwzid=1U+AMz64fk37SH5=9mYZdJuYz+t0VaEVY4UM9Ov3LzQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Apr 13, 2017 at 11:39 AM, Rustom Mody <rustompmody at gmail.com> wrote:
> My broader point (vive la Trump) was that if we learn to actively tolerate
> people with views wildly far from ours, the world would be a better place.

I fail to see how my comment "Functions and exceptions are considered
'bells and whistles'?" suggests intolerance on my part.


From python at mrabarnett.plus.com  Thu Apr 13 13:50:12 2017
From: python at mrabarnett.plus.com (MRAB)
Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2017 18:50:12 +0100
Subject: Python and the need for speed
In-Reply-To: <58ef31ee$0$1501$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
References: <768f9a44-5d90-4756-8a99-821253a491f8@googlegroups.com>
 <58e9e519$0$1528$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <mailman.9.1491728745.2951.python-list@python.org>
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Message-ID: <6f8fc379-51f1-897d-f099-ebcee2be68fa@mrabarnett.plus.com>

On 2017-04-13 09:08, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
> On Wed, 12 Apr 2017 16:30:38 -0700, bart4858 wrote:
> 
>> (Although I think Python would have difficulty in turning x+=1 into a
>> single opcode, if using normal object references and a shared object
>> model.)
> 
> You know, since Python actually exists and isn't just a hypothetical
> language, we can find out what it actually does, not just guess :-)
> 
> 
>>>> import dis
>>>> code = compile("x += 1", "", "single")
>>>> dis.dis(code)
>    1           0 LOAD_NAME                0 (x)
>                3 LOAD_CONST               0 (1)
>                6 INPLACE_ADD
>                7 STORE_NAME               0 (x)
>               10 LOAD_CONST               1 (None)
>               13 RETURN_VALUE
> 
> 
> There's an op-code for looking up the name 'x', another to push the
> constant 1 on the stack, an op-code for "INPLACE_ADD", followed by an op-
> code for STORE_NAME again.
> 
> In principle, we could replace the LOAD_CONST and INPLACE_ADD with a
> single op-code that combines the two. Whether that would speed anything
> up is another question.
> 
> Is it possible to skip the STORE_NAME op-code? If you knew *for sure*
> that the target (x) was a mutable object which implemented += using an in-
> place mutation, then you could, but the only built-in where that applies
> is list so even if you could guarantee x was a list, it hardly seems
> worth the bother.
> 
If the reference to be stored by STORE_NAME is the same as the reference 
returned by LOAD_NAME, then STORE_NAME could be omitted.

That would just mean remembering that address.

I'm still trying to think whether it's ever possible to lose all 
references to the object when INPLACE_ADD is called, leading to the 
object having been garbage-collected by the time it returns.


From rustompmody at gmail.com  Thu Apr 13 14:01:57 2017
From: rustompmody at gmail.com (Rustom Mody)
Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2017 11:01:57 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: "Goto" statement in Python
In-Reply-To: <mailman.156.1492105766.2951.python-list@python.org>
References: <CAE6NSRC=M1E+1_rX6T2Fa-zgUarwMvAn91W2SyNkodGhj6RKhQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.110.1492041148.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <ocmfta$9j1$1@dont-email.me>
 <CAE6NSRDLbFk7gNAugWfsUGUSsmDmD5WwZkQA9SwREStV5d7h7Q@mail.gmail.com>
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 <mailman.156.1492105766.2951.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <a15bf6aa-0dd7-4e36-abbf-6cca5b9befce@googlegroups.com>

On Thursday, April 13, 2017 at 11:19:38 PM UTC+5:30, Ian wrote:
> On Thu, Apr 13, 2017 at 11:39 AM, Rustom Mody wrote:
> > My broader point (vive la Trump) was that if we learn to actively tolerate
> > people with views wildly far from ours, the world would be a better place.
> 
> I fail to see how my comment "Functions and exceptions are considered
> 'bells and whistles'?" suggests intolerance on my part.

It was not directed specifically at you but at the overall quality of responses
that Mikhail is receiving for his (to me admittedly) outlandish views


From mikhailwas at gmail.com  Thu Apr 13 14:08:24 2017
From: mikhailwas at gmail.com (Mikhail V)
Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2017 20:08:24 +0200
Subject: "Goto" statement in Python
In-Reply-To: <CALwzidkBQFFR5THUyOmx9-7tXEV8F9nL1LXWV5dPD8OcnBS-_A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAE6NSRC=M1E+1_rX6T2Fa-zgUarwMvAn91W2SyNkodGhj6RKhQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.110.1492041148.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <ocmfta$9j1$1@dont-email.me>
 <CAE6NSRDLbFk7gNAugWfsUGUSsmDmD5WwZkQA9SwREStV5d7h7Q@mail.gmail.com>
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Message-ID: <CAE6NSRCVM+nFcr_5RaYsiEbwCkYZBe9+ztLZtf6avWjuTiH=XA@mail.gmail.com>

On 13 April 2017 at 19:38, Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Thu, Apr 13, 2017 at 11:25 AM, Mikhail V <mikhailwas at gmail.com> wrote:
>> On 13 April 2017 at 18:48, Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> On Thu, Apr 13, 2017 at 10:23 AM, Mikhail V <mikhailwas at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> Now I wonder, have we already collected *all* bells and whistles of Python
>>>> in these two examples, or is there something else for expressing trivial thing.
>>>
>>> Functions and exceptions are considered "bells and whistles"?
>>
>> You mean probably classes and exceptions? For me, indeed they are,
>> but it depends.
>
> No, I meant functions (the first example) and exceptions (the second example).
>
>> And breaking the code into def() chunks that are not
>> functions but just chunks... I don't know, looks bad.
>
> I don't know what you mean by this. There is no such thing as a "def()
> chunk" that is not a function.

I mean that in my example I have consequent code and Rob takes a part of the
code and puts it in a function. And this is just a part of code, I don't need
here anything to wrap or return and don't want to scroll up and down and
collect it all in my brain back into original sequence. Therefore I've called
it abstract art.


From rustompmody at gmail.com  Thu Apr 13 14:09:53 2017
From: rustompmody at gmail.com (Rustom Mody)
Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2017 11:09:53 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Goto Considered Harmful [was Re: Python and the need for speed]
In-Reply-To: <58efb8de$0$1618$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
References: <768f9a44-5d90-4756-8a99-821253a491f8@googlegroups.com>
 <CAPTjJmrMWpzGd9Lf_sa-mscvqezY01U5kDCPRh07Nuivvxo8yg@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.5.1491710256.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <el01fmF900sU1@mid.individual.net>
 <CAE6NSRDLV5_f6uuUoX8EL0Y-6AiFT3wcw_UrQ50oFDwFJ8YAPw@mail.gmail.com>
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 <a7ded978-42fe-43f3-ad75-c94e13f67dad@googlegroups.com>
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Message-ID: <3fbbdbde-107c-4ebb-b608-fd370c0ce72f@googlegroups.com>

On Thursday, April 13, 2017 at 11:14:15 PM UTC+5:30, Steve D'Aprano wrote:
> Meyer's "Considered Harmful Essays Considered Harmful" essay is hypocritical
> junk, and should be considered harmful.

Your view.
Here's an alternative.
[Sorry its a vague memory of something I read more than a decade ago that I cant
trace again]
Some unknown Cobol programmer talking about Dijkstra:

Dijkstra used his enormous prestige to destroy Cobol.
We lost a great deal
What did he gain?
Ok so Cobol's control constructs are below par
But do any of its modern successors have its data-describing properties?
[the PIC clause]

Or consider(!) Alan Kay's statement: "Arrogance in computer science is measured
in nanodijktras" 
Maybe that's a response to similar violent, unnecessary barbs from Dijkstra?


From larry.martell at gmail.com  Thu Apr 13 14:16:12 2017
From: larry.martell at gmail.com (Larry Martell)
Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2017 14:16:12 -0400
Subject: Goto Considered Harmful [was Re: Python and the need for speed]
In-Reply-To: <3fbbdbde-107c-4ebb-b608-fd370c0ce72f@googlegroups.com>
References: <768f9a44-5d90-4756-8a99-821253a491f8@googlegroups.com>
 <CAPTjJmrMWpzGd9Lf_sa-mscvqezY01U5kDCPRh07Nuivvxo8yg@mail.gmail.com>
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 <el01fmF900sU1@mid.individual.net>
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Message-ID: <CACwCsY6iBo+nK2y652sOMRKMyK0ae6yJLP+tuUyqmWo0+1RY1Q@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Apr 13, 2017 at 2:09 PM, Rustom Mody <rustompmody at gmail.com> wrote:
> Or consider(!) Alan Kay's statement: "Arrogance in computer science is measured
> in nanodijktras"

Completely unrelated but it reminded me about this bon mot about Niklaus Wirth:

Europeans tend to pronounce his name properly, as Nih-klaus Virt,
while Americans usually mangle it into something like Nickles Worth.
That has led to the programmer joke saying Europeans call him by name
while Americans call him by value.


From grant.b.edwards at gmail.com  Thu Apr 13 14:24:53 2017
From: grant.b.edwards at gmail.com (Grant Edwards)
Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2017 18:24:53 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: "Goto" statement in Python
References: <CAE6NSRC=M1E+1_rX6T2Fa-zgUarwMvAn91W2SyNkodGhj6RKhQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.110.1492041148.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <ocmfta$9j1$1@dont-email.me>
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Message-ID: <ocofpl$ia1$1@blaine.gmane.org>

On 2017-04-13, Rob Gaddi <rgaddi at highlandtechnology.invalid> wrote:

> No, C doesn't support exception handling.  As a result, handling error 
> conditions in C is a huge pain for which (forward-only) goto is often, 
> while not the only remedy, the least painful one.

Indeed. That is almost the only place I use 'goto' in C, and the
almost the only place I see others use it.  Very occasionally, you see
a the error handling goto refactored into a backwards "goto retry":

this code

foo()
  {
  while (1)
    {
      <some code>
      if (<some-error-condition>)
           goto error:
      <more code>
      return;

    error:
      <recover-from-error-condition>
    }
  }

becomes

  foo()
  {
    retry:
      <some code>
      if (<some-error-condition>)
        {
           <recover-from-error-condition>
           goto retry:
        }
      <more code>
  }

I happen to find the latter easier to read.

Fortunately, Python doesn't need goto to deal with things like that.

> Or if you've really developed a need for self-harm, setjmp/longjmp.

I've tried to use setjmp/longjmp for error handling a few times.  It
never went well...

-- 
Grant Edwards               grant.b.edwards        Yow! Catsup and Mustard all
                                  at               over the place!  It's the
                              gmail.com            Human Hamburger!



From eryksun at gmail.com  Thu Apr 13 14:36:11 2017
From: eryksun at gmail.com (eryk sun)
Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2017 18:36:11 +0000
Subject: Check multiple file parms in single os.access?
In-Reply-To: <87o9w0xvx4.fsf@bsb.me.uk>
References: <CAEqJCe1ewmAEaX0DQxoNdLiAaxNiz0CTn9k-8+AUex23cpqU6A@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.143.1492083066.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <87o9w0xvx4.fsf@bsb.me.uk>
Message-ID: <CACL+1auRbx97KaKhRjpOdA7wBPC13HOU9rSn5tsqjFL=zun30w@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Apr 13, 2017 at 1:46 PM, Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet at bsb.me.uk> wrote:
> James McMahon <jsmcmahon3 at gmail.com> writes:
>
>> Is there a way to mask the F_OK, R_OK, and W_OK in a single os.access
>> call? I'm guessing there must be, rather than doing this
>>
>> if ( os.access(fqfname,os.F_OK) and os.access(fqfname,os.R_OK) and
>> os.access(fqfname,os.W_OK)) :
>
> You can "or" together os.R_OK | os.W_OK into one call but you can can't

bitwise OR.

> do that with F_OK.  Mind you, I'm not sure that matters since I can't
> think of a case where you want to fail because os.F_OK fails but os.R_OK
> and os.W_OK succeeds.  In other words, why not just test for os.R_OK |
> os.W_OK?
>
> Note that despite using the "or" operation to construct the parameter,
> the test is an implied "and":
>
>   os.access(fqfname, os.R_OK | os.W_OK)
>
> is true only if both read and write access are permitted.

Note that os.access doesn't check file security on Windows. W_OK just
checks the read-only flag. Thus using try/except is really the only
possibility if you're on Windows and aren't using the Windows security
API.


From nathan.ernst at gmail.com  Thu Apr 13 14:51:42 2017
From: nathan.ernst at gmail.com (Nathan Ernst)
Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2017 13:51:42 -0500
Subject: Goto Considered Harmful [was Re: Python and the need for speed]
In-Reply-To: <3fbbdbde-107c-4ebb-b608-fd370c0ce72f@googlegroups.com>
References: <768f9a44-5d90-4756-8a99-821253a491f8@googlegroups.com>
 <CAPTjJmrMWpzGd9Lf_sa-mscvqezY01U5kDCPRh07Nuivvxo8yg@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.5.1491710256.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <el01fmF900sU1@mid.individual.net>
 <CAE6NSRDLV5_f6uuUoX8EL0Y-6AiFT3wcw_UrQ50oFDwFJ8YAPw@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.18.1491827120.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <a7ded978-42fe-43f3-ad75-c94e13f67dad@googlegroups.com>
 <CAE6NSRCWPpWpUJYS2RmeU4aN9Qb8fnV=TvY+50JyLA5cC2Yezw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPjBxg-pR0xO-doK6zo9mTnUgh-=PMbVmKp7odvuSFtcLqimtw@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.69.1491957877.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <58efb8de$0$1618$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <3fbbdbde-107c-4ebb-b608-fd370c0ce72f@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <CAPjBxg8YQm1m2m-6WrXA2pGzgRqcqyoGTUn6xY5MXVVuSXHpHg@mail.gmail.com>

Thank you for that Alan Kay quote. Brightened up my day. Since you also
mentioned COBOL, and this is a thread about "goto", reminded me of the
single most abhorrent thing I ever saw in COBOL (I had to convert a single
COBOL batch process to ASP.Net as an intern back in 2003-4). "MOVE NEXT
SENTENCE". What is this statement? An unlabelled goto. It literally jumps
to the next period: "." in the source.

Now, I'm fine with judicious use of goto with good labels. (and, I've only
used goto maybe 3 or 4 times in a 15 year career), but a blocky construct
like "MOVE NEXT SENTENCE" in a language that also has lots of (all-caps
required) block statements to jump to a tiny on the screen period...that is
just evil.

On Thu, Apr 13, 2017 at 1:09 PM, Rustom Mody <rustompmody at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Thursday, April 13, 2017 at 11:14:15 PM UTC+5:30, Steve D'Aprano wrote:
> > Meyer's "Considered Harmful Essays Considered Harmful" essay is
> hypocritical
> > junk, and should be considered harmful.
>
> Your view.
> Here's an alternative.
> [Sorry its a vague memory of something I read more than a decade ago that
> I cant
> trace again]
> Some unknown Cobol programmer talking about Dijkstra:
>
> Dijkstra used his enormous prestige to destroy Cobol.
> We lost a great deal
> What did he gain?
> Ok so Cobol's control constructs are below par
> But do any of its modern successors have its data-describing properties?
> [the PIC clause]
>
> Or consider(!) Alan Kay's statement: "Arrogance in computer science is
> measured
> in nanodijktras"
> Maybe that's a response to similar violent, unnecessary barbs from
> Dijkstra?
> --
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
>


From marko at pacujo.net  Thu Apr 13 15:05:56 2017
From: marko at pacujo.net (Marko Rauhamaa)
Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2017 22:05:56 +0300
Subject: "Goto" statement in Python
References: <wkJHA.687076$nT1.272081@fx44.am4>
 <CAPTjJmpUVY00qRTG2PkzeB7K2UcnYbKggTYm0Hj7ijTC9xQzvg@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.145.1492094128.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <8760i8z5u9.fsf@elektro.pacujo.net> <ococo1$p0r$1@dont-email.me>
Message-ID: <87vaq886wb.fsf@elektro.pacujo.net>

Rob Gaddi <rgaddi at highlandtechnology.invalid>:

> On 04/13/2017 08:26 AM, Marko Rauhamaa wrote:
>> I have occasionally felt the urge to try "goto" in my C code, but having
>> written it, I have taken it out. It just doesn't make the code look more
>> elegant or robust. Unlike "break" or "return," "goto" makes me uneasy
>> about variable scope and lifetime.
> [...]
> You see it all the time in kernel code or when doing I/O.  A pretty
> common pattern is:
>
>   int return_val = 1;
>   if (init_thing(x)) goto bk1;
>   if (init_thing(y)) goto bk2;
>   if (init_thing(z)) goto bk3;
>
>   do_things_with(x, y, z);
>   return_val = 0;
>
>   bk3:  cleanup_thing(z);
>   bk2:  cleanup_thing(y);
>   bk1:  cleanup_thing(x);
>   return return_val;

I know, but I still don't like it.


Marko


From breamoreboy at gmail.com  Thu Apr 13 17:47:03 2017
From: breamoreboy at gmail.com (breamoreboy at gmail.com)
Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2017 14:47:03 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Moderating the list [was: Python and the need for speed]
In-Reply-To: <mailman.140.1492075873.2951.python-list@python.org>
References: <768f9a44-5d90-4756-8a99-821253a491f8@googlegroups.com>
 <CAPTjJmrMWpzGd9Lf_sa-mscvqezY01U5kDCPRh07Nuivvxo8yg@mail.gmail.com>
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 <58e9e519$0$1528$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
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 <CAPTjJmr4q=annJt0QpnRx+DW8=wpkLWTfumSHOC1BnsH5pqBdA@mail.gmail.com>
 <e63e4b03-2ecc-026b-3362-74c4a727394e@timgolden.me.uk>
 <mailman.44.1491899163.2951.python-list@python.org>
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Message-ID: <1a4a03e4-3c20-4426-9f51-c14860f2ea3a@googlegroups.com>

On Thursday, April 13, 2017 at 10:31:22 AM UTC+1, Tim Golden wrote:
> On 13/04/2017 03:39, Jason Friedman wrote:
> >>
> >> However, it's simply a technical fact: the thing which we moderate is the
> >>> mailing list. We can control which posts make it through from the newsgroup
> >>> by blocking them at the gateway. But the posts will continue to appear on
> >>> comp.lang.python which is, as the description says, unmoderated.
> >>>
> >>
> >> TJG
> >
> >
> > Thank you, Tim and Ethan and the other moderators, for performing that
> > function.
> > It makes the reading experience more pleasant for me.
> >
> 
> I looked, for the first time in a long while, at the GG mirror of the 
> newsgroup. Hadn't realised how much of that really nasty all-caps spam 
> we were blocking. (We set up some gateway rules when that started to 
> become a problem so we just don't see it on the mailing list).
> 
> Most of the time we're just binning run-of-the-mill spam. Doesn't take 
> too much effort if you keep on top of it, but it piles up quickly enough 
> if you leave it for a bit!
> 
> TJG

I routinely set all of the upper-case crap to "violent content" on GG just as a matter of principle.  There's even been a couple of English versions lately but the filters have stopped them, well done :-)

Kindest regards.

Mark Lawrence.


From ian.g.kelly at gmail.com  Thu Apr 13 17:58:57 2017
From: ian.g.kelly at gmail.com (Ian Kelly)
Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2017 15:58:57 -0600
Subject: "Goto" statement in Python
In-Reply-To: <42rvech210hf4il6c4h7q5eoli5toiv8mk@4ax.com>
References: <wkJHA.687076$nT1.272081@fx44.am4>
 <CAPTjJmpUVY00qRTG2PkzeB7K2UcnYbKggTYm0Hj7ijTC9xQzvg@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.145.1492094128.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <vgMHA.892496$3B6.564039@fx40.am4>
 <42rvech210hf4il6c4h7q5eoli5toiv8mk@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <CALwzidk1gW7q8gsMjxhgQg+1=X_+sxBh+TibN4+h+eMasch+Ww@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Apr 13, 2017 at 3:27 PM, Dennis Lee Bieber
<wlfraed at ix.netcom.com> wrote:
> On Thu, 13 Apr 2017 15:52:24 +0100, bartc <bc at freeuk.com> declaimed the
> following:
>
>>'goto' would be one easy-to-execute byte-code; no variables, objects or
>>types to worry about. If implemented properly (with the byte-code
>>compiler using a dedicated name-space for labels) there would be no name
>>lookups.
>>
>
>         Only if GOTO is not allowed to break out of namespaces...
>
>         NO GOTO from inside a function to some global catch-all handler... No
> GOTO from a global scope into a non-global scope.
>
>         Once you permit uncontrolled/unlimited GOTO you have to be concerned
> with stack-frames and object life-times.

Even within a function you would still have to be concerned about a
goto from inside a try or with block to outside of that block, as the
finally block or the context manager's __exit__ still need to be
executed on the way out.

Not to mention the time-honored tradition of using goto to jump INTO a
block, such as Duff's Device.


From bc at freeuk.com  Thu Apr 13 18:59:25 2017
From: bc at freeuk.com (bartc)
Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2017 23:59:25 +0100
Subject: "Goto" statement in Python
In-Reply-To: <mailman.167.1492120781.2951.python-list@python.org>
References: <wkJHA.687076$nT1.272081@fx44.am4>
 <CAPTjJmpUVY00qRTG2PkzeB7K2UcnYbKggTYm0Hj7ijTC9xQzvg@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.145.1492094128.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <vgMHA.892496$3B6.564039@fx40.am4>
 <42rvech210hf4il6c4h7q5eoli5toiv8mk@4ax.com>
 <CALwzidk1gW7q8gsMjxhgQg+1=X_+sxBh+TibN4+h+eMasch+Ww@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.167.1492120781.2951.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <4pTHA.695356$nT1.588759@fx44.am4>

On 13/04/2017 22:58, Ian Kelly wrote:
> On Thu, Apr 13, 2017 at 3:27 PM, Dennis Lee Bieber
> <wlfraed at ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>> On Thu, 13 Apr 2017 15:52:24 +0100, bartc <bc at freeuk.com> declaimed the
>> following:
>>
>>> 'goto' would be one easy-to-execute byte-code; no variables, objects or
>>> types to worry about. If implemented properly (with the byte-code
>>> compiler using a dedicated name-space for labels) there would be no name
>>> lookups.
>>>
>>
>>         Only if GOTO is not allowed to break out of namespaces...
>>
>>         NO GOTO from inside a function to some global catch-all handler...

(That doesn't happen. No sane language would allow it, not on the 
user-side anyway.)

>>         Once you permit uncontrolled/unlimited GOTO you have to be concerned
>> with stack-frames and object life-times.
>
> Even within a function you would still have to be concerned about a
> goto from inside a try or with block to outside of that block, as the
> finally block or the context manager's __exit__ still need to be
> executed on the way out.

So how does 'break' manage it? I assume break works from inside a try- 
or with-block.

Jumping /into/ such a block might be more tricky, but it is simple 
enough to not allow it.

-- 
Bartc


From roel at roelschroeven.net  Thu Apr 13 20:25:46 2017
From: roel at roelschroeven.net (Roel Schroeven)
Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2017 02:25:46 +0200
Subject: Namedtuples: some unexpected inconveniences
In-Reply-To: <el8o06Fu980U1@mid.individual.net>
References: <ocm3jt$h2q$1@blaine.gmane.org>
 <00a901d2b3d8$25d09460$27b23dae@sambora>
 <mailman.101.1492034412.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <el8o06Fu980U1@mid.individual.net>
Message-ID: <ocp4u2$glt$1@blaine.gmane.org>

Gregory Ewing schreef op 13/04/2017 9:34:
> Deborah Swanson wrote:
>> Peter Otten wrote, on Wednesday, April 12, 2017 1:45 PM
>>
>>> Personally I would immediately discard the header row once and for
>>> all, not again and again on every operation.
>> Well, perhaps, but I need the header row to stay in place to write the
>> list to a csv when I'm done
> 
> That's no problem, just write the header row separately.
> 
> Do this at the beginning:
> 
>    header = [Record._make(fieldnames)]
>    records = [Record._make(row) for row in rows]
> 
> and then to write out the file:
> 
>    writer = csv.writer(outputfile)
>    writer.writerow(header)
>    writer.writerows(records)

I don't even think there's any need to store the field names anywhere 
else than in fieldnames. So unless I'm missing something, just do this 
at the beginning:

     fieldnames = next(rows)
     Record = namedtuple("Record", fieldnames)
     records = [Record._make(row) for row in rows]

and this at the end:

     writer = csv.writer(outputfile)
     writer.writerow(fieldnames) # or writer.writerow(Record._fields)
     writer.writerows(records)


-- 
The saddest aspect of life right now is that science gathers knowledge
faster than society gathers wisdom.
   -- Isaac Asimov

Roel Schroeven



From ian.g.kelly at gmail.com  Thu Apr 13 20:36:57 2017
From: ian.g.kelly at gmail.com (Ian Kelly)
Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2017 18:36:57 -0600
Subject: "Goto" statement in Python
In-Reply-To: <4pTHA.695356$nT1.588759@fx44.am4>
References: <wkJHA.687076$nT1.272081@fx44.am4>
 <CAPTjJmpUVY00qRTG2PkzeB7K2UcnYbKggTYm0Hj7ijTC9xQzvg@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.145.1492094128.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <vgMHA.892496$3B6.564039@fx40.am4>
 <42rvech210hf4il6c4h7q5eoli5toiv8mk@4ax.com>
 <CALwzidk1gW7q8gsMjxhgQg+1=X_+sxBh+TibN4+h+eMasch+Ww@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.167.1492120781.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <4pTHA.695356$nT1.588759@fx44.am4>
Message-ID: <CALwzidkc+hgX5Z93YsKSs8n7-vvFdnDT0Q5Wsy40FGnpXv-iTw@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Apr 13, 2017 at 4:59 PM, bartc <bc at freeuk.com> wrote:
> On 13/04/2017 22:58, Ian Kelly wrote:
>>
>> On Thu, Apr 13, 2017 at 3:27 PM, Dennis Lee Bieber
>> <wlfraed at ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> On Thu, 13 Apr 2017 15:52:24 +0100, bartc <bc at freeuk.com> declaimed the
>>> following:
>>>
>>>> 'goto' would be one easy-to-execute byte-code; no variables, objects or
>>>> types to worry about. If implemented properly (with the byte-code
>>>> compiler using a dedicated name-space for labels) there would be no name
>>>> lookups.
>>>>
>>>
>>>         Only if GOTO is not allowed to break out of namespaces...
>>>
>>>         NO GOTO from inside a function to some global catch-all
>>> handler...
>
>
> (That doesn't happen. No sane language would allow it, not on the user-side
> anyway.)

Well, you can do it in Assembly. And BASIC, if you count the primitive
GOSUB-type subroutines, though modern BASICs have real subroutines
that don't allow it.

>>>         Once you permit uncontrolled/unlimited GOTO you have to be
>>> concerned
>>> with stack-frames and object life-times.
>>
>>
>> Even within a function you would still have to be concerned about a
>> goto from inside a try or with block to outside of that block, as the
>> finally block or the context manager's __exit__ still need to be
>> executed on the way out.
>
>
> So how does 'break' manage it? I assume break works from inside a try- or
> with-block.

Yes, it would have to work similarly to break, continue and return. I
didn't mean to imply that it was impossible, only that it's not quite
as simple as just modifying a program counter.

For reference, here's what break inside a try block compiles to:

>>> dis.dis("""
... while True:
...     try:
...         break
...     finally:
...         print("Bye")
... """)
  2           0 SETUP_LOOP              22 (to 24)

  3     >>    2 SETUP_FINALLY            6 (to 10)

  4           4 BREAK_LOOP
              6 POP_BLOCK
              8 LOAD_CONST               0 (None)

  6     >>   10 LOAD_NAME                0 (print)
             12 LOAD_CONST               1 ('Bye')
             14 CALL_FUNCTION            1
             16 POP_TOP
             18 END_FINALLY
             20 JUMP_ABSOLUTE            2
             22 POP_BLOCK
        >>   24 LOAD_CONST               0 (None)
             26 RETURN_VALUE


From python at deborahswanson.net  Thu Apr 13 20:41:12 2017
From: python at deborahswanson.net (Deborah Swanson)
Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2017 17:41:12 -0700
Subject: Namedtuples: some unexpected inconveniences
In-Reply-To: <ocn8m2$3ir$1@blaine.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <009a01d2b4b7$d1962aa0$27b23dae@sambora>

Peter Otten wrote, on Thursday, April 13, 2017 12:17 AM
> 
> Deborah Swanson wrote:
> 
> > Peter Otten wrote, on Wednesday, April 12, 2017 11:35 PM
> >> 
> >> Deborah Swanson wrote:
> >> 
> >> > It's a small point, but I suspect getattr(record, label)
> >> would still
> >> > fail, even if label's value is 'label' and only 'label', 
> but what's 
> >> > the point of having a variable if it will only ever have 
> just one 
> >> > value?
> >> 
> >> You are misunderstanding. Your getattr() call fails because you
have
> >> 
> >> label = "label"
> >> 
> >> burried somewhere in your code. As soon as you change that to
> >> 
> >> label = <insert an existing attribute name here>
> >> 
> >> the error will go away.
> > 
> > 
> > Yes, the error goes away, but now getattr(record, label) is useless 
> > for processing field names, unless you want to write a line of code 
> > for each one. (I have 17 field names, and forget about passing label

> > to a function.)

Uh-oh, I boobooed and misread what you wrote here. 

> No, it's not useless:
> 
> >>> from collections import namedtuple
> >>> T = namedtuple("T", "foo bar baz")
> >>> t = T(1, 2, 3)
> >>> for name in t._fields:
> ...     print(name, "=", getattr(t, name))
> ... 
> foo = 1
> bar = 2
> baz = 3

Wow. Ok, I can see that the specific circumstance I got the "object has
no attribute 'label' error was quite likely not due to using getattr()
with a variable for a namedtuple field name, and probably some other
factor was at work.

Unfortunately, when I shifted gears on the overall problem and abandoned
the strategy of making the group-by defaultdict, I renamed the project
file and started over, going back to the original list of namedtuples.
As a result, all the back versions of my code producing this error were
lost.

I've spent the better part of today rewriting the lost code, and I'm
nowhere near finished, and now my illness is ganging up on me again. So
anything further will have to wait til tomorrow.

I remain quite sure that at no point did I have the line

label = "label"

in my code, and I wouldn't even have thought of writing it because it's
so absurd in so many ways. Hopefully I can show you what I wrote soon,
and you can see for yourself.

> And as a special service here's a mutable datatype with sufficient 
> namedtuple compatibility to replicate the above snippet:
> 
> $ cat namedtuple_replacement.py
> def struct(name, wanted_columns):
>     class Struct:
>         _fields = __slots__ = wanted_columns.split()
> 
>         def __init__(self, *args):
>             names = self.__slots__
>             if len(args) != len(names):
>                 raise ValueError
>             for name, value in zip(names, args):
>                 setattr(self, name, value)
> 
>         @classmethod
>         def _make(cls, args):
>             return cls(*args)
> 
>         def __repr__(self):
>             names = self.__slots__
>             return "{}({})".format(
>                 self.__class__.__name__,
>                 ", ".join("{}={!r}".format(n, getattr(self, 
> n)) for n in 
> names)
>             )
> 
>     Struct.__name__ = name
>     return Struct
> 
> T = struct("T", "foo bar baz")
> t = T(1, 2, 3)
> print(t)
> for name in t._fields:
>     print(name, "=", getattr(t, name))
> t.bar = 42
> print(t)
> $ python3 namedtuple_replacement.py 
> T(foo=1, bar=2, baz=3)
> foo = 1
> bar = 2
> baz = 3
> T(foo=1, bar=42, baz=3)

Thank you for this datatype definition.

I won't take a serious look at it until I rewrite the code I lost and
get to the bottom of why getattr() got the attribute error, but once
that issue is resolved I will return to your mutable datatype with
namedtuple 
compatibility (to some extent, I gather).

I apologize for the delay, but your simple getattr() example above
demands that I find out why it wasn't working for me before moving on
with the rest of this. And that will take some time. Probably not the 3
weeks it took me to get to the point where I was consistently seeing the
error, but it will be awhile. I'll come back to address these issues and
your datatype when I've got code to show what I did. (For my own sanity,
if no other reason.)



From python at deborahswanson.net  Thu Apr 13 20:47:34 2017
From: python at deborahswanson.net (Deborah Swanson)
Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2017 17:47:34 -0700
Subject: Namedtuples: some unexpected inconveniences
In-Reply-To: <el8muoFu2l5U1@mid.individual.net>
Message-ID: <00a001d2b4b8$b4e9d090$27b23dae@sambora>

Gregory Ewing wrote, on Thursday, April 13, 2017 12:17 AM
> 
> Deborah Swanson wrote:
> > But I think you got it right in your last sentence below. 
> defaultdict 
> > copied them because they were immutable,
> 
> No, definitely not. A defaultdict will never take it upon 
> itself to copy an object you give it, either as a key or a value.
> 
> The copying, if any, must have occurred somewhere else, in
> code that you didn't show us.
> 
> Can you show us the actual code you used to attempt to
> update the namedtuples?
> 
> -- 
> Greg

As I just told Peter, I just discovered earlier today that all of that
code is lost, and it will take awhile to rewrite. And now I have several
reasons to do so.

I don't know how long it will take, but I will come back and produce the
code that gave me this behavior.



From ian.g.kelly at gmail.com  Thu Apr 13 20:48:19 2017
From: ian.g.kelly at gmail.com (Ian Kelly)
Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2017 18:48:19 -0600
Subject: Goto Considered Harmful [was Re: Python and the need for speed]
In-Reply-To: <CAPjBxg8YQm1m2m-6WrXA2pGzgRqcqyoGTUn6xY5MXVVuSXHpHg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <768f9a44-5d90-4756-8a99-821253a491f8@googlegroups.com>
 <CAPTjJmrMWpzGd9Lf_sa-mscvqezY01U5kDCPRh07Nuivvxo8yg@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.5.1491710256.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <el01fmF900sU1@mid.individual.net>
 <CAE6NSRDLV5_f6uuUoX8EL0Y-6AiFT3wcw_UrQ50oFDwFJ8YAPw@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.18.1491827120.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <a7ded978-42fe-43f3-ad75-c94e13f67dad@googlegroups.com>
 <CAE6NSRCWPpWpUJYS2RmeU4aN9Qb8fnV=TvY+50JyLA5cC2Yezw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPjBxg-pR0xO-doK6zo9mTnUgh-=PMbVmKp7odvuSFtcLqimtw@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.69.1491957877.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <58efb8de$0$1618$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <3fbbdbde-107c-4ebb-b608-fd370c0ce72f@googlegroups.com>
 <CAPjBxg8YQm1m2m-6WrXA2pGzgRqcqyoGTUn6xY5MXVVuSXHpHg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CALwzidm8ptj_LcH3exTL0JFcChErALAS4moRvT-nNj7WWAcTVw@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Apr 13, 2017 at 12:51 PM, Nathan Ernst <nathan.ernst at gmail.com> wrote:
> Thank you for that Alan Kay quote. Brightened up my day. Since you also
> mentioned COBOL, and this is a thread about "goto", reminded me of the
> single most abhorrent thing I ever saw in COBOL (I had to convert a single
> COBOL batch process to ASP.Net as an intern back in 2003-4). "MOVE NEXT
> SENTENCE". What is this statement? An unlabelled goto. It literally jumps
> to the next period: "." in the source.
>
> Now, I'm fine with judicious use of goto with good labels. (and, I've only
> used goto maybe 3 or 4 times in a 15 year career), but a blocky construct
> like "MOVE NEXT SENTENCE" in a language that also has lots of (all-caps
> required) block statements to jump to a tiny on the screen period...that is
> just evil.

Yikes. I never took the time to learn COBOL, but that almost sounds
like something that you'd find in an esoteric language like INTERCAL.


From python at deborahswanson.net  Thu Apr 13 20:52:15 2017
From: python at deborahswanson.net (Deborah Swanson)
Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2017 17:52:15 -0700
Subject: Namedtuples: some unexpected inconveniences
In-Reply-To: <el8o06Fu980U1@mid.individual.net>
Message-ID: <00a101d2b4b9$5c886dc0$27b23dae@sambora>

Gregory Ewing wrote, on Thursday, April 13, 2017 12:34 AM
> 
> Deborah Swanson wrote:
> > Peter Otten wrote, on Wednesday, April 12, 2017 1:45 PM
> > 
> >> Personally I would immediately discard the header row once and for 
> >> all, not again and again on every operation.
> > 
> > Well, perhaps, but I need the header row to stay in place 
> to write the 
> > list to a csv when I'm done
> 
> That's no problem, just write the header row separately.
> 
> Do this at the beginning:
> 
>    header = [Record._make(fieldnames)]
>    records = [Record._make(row) for row in rows]
> 
> and then to write out the file:
> 
>    writer = csv.writer(outputfile)
>    writer.writerow(header)
>    writer.writerows(records)
> 
> > There might be a tiny performance edge in discarding the header row 
> > for the sort, but there would also be a hit to recreate it 
> at output 
> > time.
> 
> It's not about performance, it's about keeping the code as 
> clean and simple as you can, thus making it easier to 
> understand and maintain.
> 
> The general idea to take away from this is that it's almost 
> always best to arrange things so that a given collection 
> contains just one kind of data, so you can treat every 
> element of it in exactly the same way.
> 
> -- 
> Greg

That's good advice and I'll rewrite it that way, after I have the code I
started with to answer the other questions.

I certainly know I have a lot to learn about writing good code, and I
can see that what you're suggesting is much cleaner than what I had.

Thanks,
Deborah



From python at deborahswanson.net  Thu Apr 13 20:55:57 2017
From: python at deborahswanson.net (Deborah Swanson)
Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2017 17:55:57 -0700
Subject: Namedtuples: some unexpected inconveniences
In-Reply-To: <el8o3oFu980U2@mid.individual.net>
Message-ID: <00a201d2b4b9$e1142930$27b23dae@sambora>

Gregory Ewing wrote, on Thursday, April 13, 2017 12:36 AM
> 
> If you want to be able to update your rows, you may find
> this useful:
> 
https://pypi.python.org/pypi/recordclass

It's very similar to a namedtuple, but mutable. Looks like it should be
a drop-in replacement.

-- 
Greg

Thanks Greg, I'll definitely take a look at it



From python at deborahswanson.net  Thu Apr 13 21:01:49 2017
From: python at deborahswanson.net (Deborah Swanson)
Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2017 18:01:49 -0700
Subject: Namedtuples: some unexpected inconveniences
In-Reply-To: <el8qauF71dU1@mid.individual.net>
Message-ID: <00a301d2b4ba$b2cd9560$27b23dae@sambora>

Gregory Ewing wrote, on Thursday, April 13, 2017 1:14 AM
> 
> Deborah Swanson wrote:
> > I don't exactly understand your point (2). If the 
> namedtuple does not 
> > have a label attribute, then getattr(record, label) will 
> get the error 
> > whether the name label holds the string 'label' or not.
> 
> You sound rather confused. Maybe the following interactive 
> session transcript will help.
> 
>  >>> from collections import namedtuple
>  >>> record = namedtuple('record', 'alpha,beta')
>  >>> r = record(1, 2)
>  >>> r
> record(alpha=1, beta=2)
>  >>> label = 'alpha'
>  >>> getattr(r, label)
> 1
>  >>> label = 'beta'
>  >>> getattr(r, label)
> 2
>  >>> label = 'gamma'
>  >>> getattr(r, label)
> Traceback (most recent call last):
>    File "<stdin>", line 1, in <module>
> AttributeError: 'record' object has no attribute 'gamma'
> 
> Can you see what's happening here? The expression
> 
>     label
> 
> is being evaluated, and whatever string it evaluates to is 
> being used as the attribute name to look up.
> 
> Now, I'm not sure exactly what you were doing to get the 
> message "'record' object has no attribute 'label'". Here are 
> a few possible ways to get that effect:
> 
>  >>> r.label
> Traceback (most recent call last):
>    File "<stdin>", line 1, in <module>
> AttributeError: 'record' object has no attribute 'label'
> 
>  >>> getattr(r, 'label')
> Traceback (most recent call last):
>    File "<stdin>", line 1, in <module>
> AttributeError: 'record' object has no attribute 'label'
> 
>  >>> label = 'label'
>  >>> getattr(r, label)
> Traceback (most recent call last):
>    File "<stdin>", line 1, in <module>
> AttributeError: 'record' object has no attribute 'label'
> 
> Or maybe you did something else again. We would need to
> see your code in order to tell.
> 
> -- 
> Greg

And it's reproducing the code that's the roadblock to all of these
issues.

Rest assured I will get to the bottom of this, or at least come back
with the code to ask more questions about it and let you see what I had.
I want to see what's going on here too.

Might be a day or two though.

Deborah



From python at deborahswanson.net  Thu Apr 13 21:08:53 2017
From: python at deborahswanson.net (Deborah Swanson)
Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2017 18:08:53 -0700
Subject: Namedtuples: some unexpected inconveniences
In-Reply-To: <ocp4u2$glt$1@blaine.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <00a401d2b4bb$af5011f0$27b23dae@sambora>

Roel Schroeven wrote, on Thursday, April 13, 2017 5:26 PM
> 
> Gregory Ewing schreef op 13/04/2017 9:34:
> > Deborah Swanson wrote:
> >> Peter Otten wrote, on Wednesday, April 12, 2017 1:45 PM
> >>
> >>> Personally I would immediately discard the header row 
> once and for 
> >>> all, not again and again on every operation.
> >> Well, perhaps, but I need the header row to stay in place to write 
> >> the list to a csv when I'm done
> > 
> > That's no problem, just write the header row separately.
> > 
> > Do this at the beginning:
> > 
> >    header = [Record._make(fieldnames)]
> >    records = [Record._make(row) for row in rows]
> > 
> > and then to write out the file:
> > 
> >    writer = csv.writer(outputfile)
> >    writer.writerow(header)
> >    writer.writerows(records)
> 
> I don't even think there's any need to store the field names anywhere 
> else than in fieldnames. So unless I'm missing something, 
> just do this 
> at the beginning:
> 
>      fieldnames = next(rows)
>      Record = namedtuple("Record", fieldnames)
>      records = [Record._make(row) for row in rows]
> 
> and this at the end:
> 
>      writer = csv.writer(outputfile)
>      writer.writerow(fieldnames) # or writer.writerow(Record._fields)
>      writer.writerows(records)
> 
> 
> -- 
> The saddest aspect of life right now is that science gathers 
> knowledge faster than society gathers wisdom.
>    -- Isaac Asimov
> 
> Roel Schroeven

Thanks Roel. I'll try your version when I get the code reconstructed,
and that might take a few to several days. I'll try to get back to you
though on how it goes.

Read the previous messages if you want the sad story of what happened to
the original code.

Deborah



From steve+python at pearwood.info  Thu Apr 13 21:33:12 2017
From: steve+python at pearwood.info (Steve D'Aprano)
Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2017 11:33:12 +1000
Subject: Goto Considered Harmful [was Re: Python and the need for speed]
References: <768f9a44-5d90-4756-8a99-821253a491f8@googlegroups.com>
 <CAPTjJmrMWpzGd9Lf_sa-mscvqezY01U5kDCPRh07Nuivvxo8yg@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.5.1491710256.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <el01fmF900sU1@mid.individual.net>
 <CAE6NSRDLV5_f6uuUoX8EL0Y-6AiFT3wcw_UrQ50oFDwFJ8YAPw@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.18.1491827120.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <a7ded978-42fe-43f3-ad75-c94e13f67dad@googlegroups.com>
 <CAE6NSRCWPpWpUJYS2RmeU4aN9Qb8fnV=TvY+50JyLA5cC2Yezw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPjBxg-pR0xO-doK6zo9mTnUgh-=PMbVmKp7odvuSFtcLqimtw@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.69.1491957877.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <58efb8de$0$1618$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <3fbbdbde-107c-4ebb-b608-fd370c0ce72f@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <58f026d9$0$1612$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>

On Fri, 14 Apr 2017 04:09 am, Rustom Mody wrote:

> On Thursday, April 13, 2017 at 11:14:15 PM UTC+5:30, Steve D'Aprano wrote:
>> Meyer's "Considered Harmful Essays Considered Harmful" essay is
>> hypocritical junk, and should be considered harmful.
> 
> Your view.

Well duh :-)


> Here's an alternative.
> [Sorry its a vague memory of something I read more than a decade ago that
> [I cant
> trace again]
> Some unknown Cobol programmer talking about Dijkstra:
> 
> Dijkstra used his enormous prestige to destroy Cobol.

"Imminent Death Of Cobol Predicted. Again."

When the sun finally expands into a supergiant in five billion years,
destroying the earth, the last survivors to die will be COBOL-programming
cockroaches and Keith Richards.


> We lost a great deal
> What did he gain?
> Ok so Cobol's control constructs are below par
> But do any of its modern successors have its data-describing properties?
> [the PIC clause]

If PIC is so great, why do no other languages have it?

That's a serious question, not a rhetorical question.



> Or consider(!) Alan Kay's statement: "Arrogance in computer science is
> measured in nanodijktras"

Indeed. What's your point? Because that sounds awfully like an ad hominem
fallacy. Dijkstra was arrogant, therefore he must be wrong.


> Maybe that's a response to similar violent, unnecessary barbs from
> Dijkstra?

"Violent"?

Are you one of those people who think that calling a person an idiot is
morally indistinguishable from beating them into a coma?

"Sticks and stones will break my bones, but that's nothing to the harm
caused by a few mean words."




-- 
Steve
?Cheer up,? they said, ?things could be worse.? So I cheered up, and sure
enough, things got worse.



From steve+python at pearwood.info  Thu Apr 13 21:44:59 2017
From: steve+python at pearwood.info (Steve D'Aprano)
Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2017 11:44:59 +1000
Subject: "Goto" statement in Python
References: <wkJHA.687076$nT1.272081@fx44.am4>
 <CAPTjJmpUVY00qRTG2PkzeB7K2UcnYbKggTYm0Hj7ijTC9xQzvg@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.145.1492094128.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <vgMHA.892496$3B6.564039@fx40.am4>
Message-ID: <58f0299c$0$1620$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>

On Fri, 14 Apr 2017 12:52 am, bartc wrote:

> I know this isn't the Python need-for-speed thread, but this is a
> classic example where the lack of one simple feature leads to using
> slower, more cumbersome ones.

Dear gods, have I fallen back in time to 1975 again?

The Goto Wars are over, and the structured programming camp won the war
decisively.

Are functions/procedures *technically* slower than GOTOs? Yes. So what?
You're nano-optimizing the wrong thing: you're saving a microsecond of
runtime at the cost of a megasecond of development and maintenance time.

At the point that you say "Function calls ... are rather more heavyweight"
the whole argument becomes farcical. Function calls are so prevalent in
modern structured programming (whether you write in procedural, functional
or object-oriented style, or a combination of all three) that saving one or
two function calls isn't even a micro-optimization, especially not in a
high-level language.

To save any meaningful time, you would need to return to the bad-old-days of
unmaintainable unstructured spaghetti code.

This debate about the usefulness of GOTO in modern languages reminds me of
the sort of people who will drive around the city for an hour looking to
save 0.1 cent on the cost of petrol (gasoline for Americans).


> 'goto' would be one easy-to-execute byte-code; no variables, objects or
> types to worry about. If implemented properly (with the byte-code
> compiler using a dedicated name-space for labels) there would be no name
> lookups.

I don't care much about the implementation of GOTO. I care a lot about the
code written that includes GOTOs.

Are there reasonable uses for GOTO? Perhaps. There are semi-structured
restricted versions of GOTO, like exceptions, break and return, but an
unrestricted GOTO where you can jump anywhere in the program is a terrible
feature for anything but the smallest, most trivial programs. To be even
*close* to safe, you have to restrict GOTO considerably. At the very
minimum, you need two restrictions:

- cannot jump into the middle of a procedure or function;

- cannot jump immediately out of a procedure or function without 
  cleaning up the stack and other handling.


Even that's not enough for some. Donald Knuth, who supports the use of GOTO
under some circumstances, maintains that any program using GOTOs should
have the invariant that its flow chart can be drawn with all forward
branches on the left, all backward branches on the right, and no branches
crossing each other.

Features should not be judged solely on their usefulness to the best 1% of
programmers using the feature in the best possible way. You also need to
consider the lesser mortals, the below-average 50% of programmers who will
use the feature in sub-optimal if not outright terrible ways.

GOTOs are far to easy to abuse. The harm that they do is outweighed a
thousand times by the rare positive use. Most languages do well to avoid
GOTO, even if that means that there are one or two rare uses that have to
be written slightly sub-optimally for the lack.


> Function calls, returns and generators are rather more heavyweight in
> comparison.

And enormously better.




-- 
Steve
?Cheer up,? they said, ?things could be worse.? So I cheered up, and sure
enough, things got worse.



From steve+python at pearwood.info  Thu Apr 13 22:13:03 2017
From: steve+python at pearwood.info (Steve D'Aprano)
Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2017 12:13:03 +1000
Subject: Python and the need for speed
References: <768f9a44-5d90-4756-8a99-821253a491f8@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.5.1491710256.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <58e9e519$0$1528$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <mailman.9.1491728745.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <58ec9192$0$1602$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <oci97l$10u4$1@gioia.aioe.org>
 <58eceea2$0$1615$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <CAE6NSRD=xU_mNECNBU2w92Br=vgHJJVqSruGFrPB=vrbpkj0Nw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPjBxg_49OD_CNXUAHKjxYsUiLab4s_fCs_Ast3LyymB82zTCA@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.68.1491956914.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <4277c149-e136-4d33-91d5-d011df9149f1@googlegroups.com>
 <58edcdd2$0$1501$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <fdb4a93a-688e-4a3f-bbc3-0df3ee1d2ac7@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <58f03030$0$1598$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>

On Wed, 12 Apr 2017 07:56 pm, bart4858 at gmail.com wrote:

> The problem is also the language encouraging people to use high-level but
> inefficient methods, as the emphasis is on productivity and readability**
> rather than performance. 

I'm sorry, but that is in no way "the problem".

Emphasising productivity and readability is not a problem. It is a feature.

There are a bazillion ugly, unreadable, unproductive but slow languages if
you want them:

C, C++, C#, Objective C, Lisp, Scheme, Fortran, Java, Rust, D, Ada ...

(although of course aficionados of each language will disagree about it
being unproductive; whatever rocks your boat). That's fine. If you want
fast code, you can get it.

Python's emphasis on readability and productivity is not a cross to bear, it
is not a bug, or a design mistake, or a problem. It is an intentional
trade-off.

While it is certainly true that faster Python is welcome, and that there may
be ways of getting it without giving up on the essential Pythonness of the
language, if speed is your number one concern, maybe Python was the wrong
choice of language for you.

Just like if you care most about program correctness, type-safety and
correctness proofs, choosing C is probably the wrong decision.



[...]
> (** Although I find code full of class definitions, one-liners, decorators
> and all the other esoterics, incomprehensive. I'm sure I'm not the only
> one, so perhaps readability isn't too much of a priority either.)

Classes and decorators are not esoteric. You sound like an old man who
complains about this new-fangled "telephone", and how things were so much
better when we had messenger boys to deliver messages anywhere in the city.

I'm not sure what you consider incomprehensible about "one liners", surely
it depends on what the one liner does. These are pretty clear to me:

# The archetypal "Hello World!" program is a one-liner.
print("Hello World!")

# One liner to calculate the sum of the first 50 cubes.
total = sum(i**3 for i in range(50))



-- 
Steve
?Cheer up,? they said, ?things could be worse.? So I cheered up, and sure
enough, things got worse.



From rustompmody at gmail.com  Thu Apr 13 22:52:25 2017
From: rustompmody at gmail.com (Rustom Mody)
Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2017 19:52:25 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Python and the need for speed
In-Reply-To: <58f03030$0$1598$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
References: <768f9a44-5d90-4756-8a99-821253a491f8@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.5.1491710256.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <58e9e519$0$1528$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <mailman.9.1491728745.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <58ec9192$0$1602$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <oci97l$10u4$1@gioia.aioe.org>
 <58eceea2$0$1615$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <CAE6NSRD=xU_mNECNBU2w92Br=vgHJJVqSruGFrPB=vrbpkj0Nw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPjBxg_49OD_CNXUAHKjxYsUiLab4s_fCs_Ast3LyymB82zTCA@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.68.1491956914.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <4277c149-e136-4d33-91d5-d011df9149f1@googlegroups.com>
 <58edcdd2$0$1501$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <fdb4a93a-688e-4a3f-bbc3-0df3ee1d2ac7@googlegroups.com>
 <58f03030$0$1598$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
Message-ID: <0042cab4-f998-4118-b83c-331a7d97c533@googlegroups.com>

On Friday, April 14, 2017 at 7:43:22 AM UTC+5:30, Steve D'Aprano wrote:
> On Wed, 12 Apr 2017 07:56 pm, bart wrote:
> 
> > The problem is also the language encouraging people to use high-level but
> > inefficient methods, as the emphasis is on productivity and readability**
> > rather than performance. 
> 
> I'm sorry, but that is in no way "the problem".
> 
> Emphasising productivity and readability is not a problem. It is a feature.
> 
> There are a bazillion ugly, unreadable, unproductive but slow languages if
> you want them:
> 
> C, C++, C#, Objective C, Lisp, Scheme, Fortran, Java, Rust, D, Ada ...

C and Fortran in the slow-set??
I'd say you are typing too fast :D


From rustompmody at gmail.com  Thu Apr 13 23:06:31 2017
From: rustompmody at gmail.com (Rustom Mody)
Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2017 20:06:31 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Goto Considered Harmful [was Re: Python and the need for speed]
In-Reply-To: <58f026d9$0$1612$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
References: <768f9a44-5d90-4756-8a99-821253a491f8@googlegroups.com>
 <CAPTjJmrMWpzGd9Lf_sa-mscvqezY01U5kDCPRh07Nuivvxo8yg@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.5.1491710256.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <el01fmF900sU1@mid.individual.net>
 <CAE6NSRDLV5_f6uuUoX8EL0Y-6AiFT3wcw_UrQ50oFDwFJ8YAPw@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.18.1491827120.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <a7ded978-42fe-43f3-ad75-c94e13f67dad@googlegroups.com>
 <CAE6NSRCWPpWpUJYS2RmeU4aN9Qb8fnV=TvY+50JyLA5cC2Yezw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPjBxg-pR0xO-doK6zo9mTnUgh-=PMbVmKp7odvuSFtcLqimtw@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.69.1491957877.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <58efb8de$0$1618$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <3fbbdbde-107c-4ebb-b608-fd370c0ce72f@googlegroups.com>
 <58f026d9$0$1612$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
Message-ID: <a1a1c935-dabd-4f42-8826-ab57ddae999a@googlegroups.com>

On Friday, April 14, 2017 at 7:03:24 AM UTC+5:30, Steve D'Aprano wrote:
> On Fri, 14 Apr 2017 04:09 am, Rustom Mody wrote:

> > [Sorry its a vague memory of something I read more than a decade ago that
> > [I cant
> > trace again]
> > Some unknown Cobol programmer talking about Dijkstra:
> > 
> > Dijkstra used his enormous prestige to destroy Cobol.
> > We lost a great deal
> > What did he gain?
> > Ok so Cobol's control constructs are below par
> > But do any of its modern successors have its data-describing properties?
> > [the PIC clause]
> 
> If PIC is so great, why do no other languages have it?
> 
> That's a serious question, not a rhetorical question.

Dunno enough about Cobol and that ecosystem to make a useful comment
However your question is really two:
1. Whats good about Cobol's PIC?
2. Why dont other languages have it/that benefit?

1st as I said I dont feel qualified to answer
2nd is ridiculous. Because of collective stupidity:
- Species go extinct
- Garbage fills the oceans
- Fukushima fallout reaches Canada
- And in general good, valuable things die out
> 
> "Imminent Death Of Cobol Predicted. Again."
> 
> When the sun finally expands into a supergiant in five billion years,
> destroying the earth, the last survivors to die will be COBOL-programming
> cockroaches and Keith Richards.

> > Maybe that's a response to similar violent, unnecessary barbs from
> > Dijkstra?
> 
> "Violent"?
> 
> Are you one of those people who think that calling a person an idiot is
> morally indistinguishable from beating them into a coma?
> 
> "Sticks and stones will break my bones, but that's nothing to the harm
> caused by a few mean words."

You are treating violence as literal physical violence.
Thats backwards. Ultimately all violence is moral
Else an orthopaedic sawing off a knee to replace or a dentist yanking out a 
molar would be felons


From rustompmody at gmail.com  Thu Apr 13 23:20:44 2017
From: rustompmody at gmail.com (Rustom Mody)
Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2017 20:20:44 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: "Goto" statement in Python
In-Reply-To: <58f0299c$0$1620$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
References: <wkJHA.687076$nT1.272081@fx44.am4>
 <CAPTjJmpUVY00qRTG2PkzeB7K2UcnYbKggTYm0Hj7ijTC9xQzvg@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.145.1492094128.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <vgMHA.892496$3B6.564039@fx40.am4>
 <58f0299c$0$1620$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
Message-ID: <cbdfadc1-f50a-4e68-9264-1ba9457912c2@googlegroups.com>

On Friday, April 14, 2017 at 7:15:11 AM UTC+5:30, Steve D'Aprano wrote:
> On Fri, 14 Apr 2017 12:52 am, bartc wrote:
> 
> > I know this isn't the Python need-for-speed thread, but this is a
> > classic example where the lack of one simple feature leads to using
> > slower, more cumbersome ones.
> 
> Dear gods, have I fallen back in time to 1975 again?

Good that you start with the suggestion that we are not in 1975

<snip>

> Features should not be judged solely on their usefulness to the best 1% of
> programmers using the feature in the best possible way. You also need to
> consider the lesser mortals, the below-average 50% of programmers who will
> use the feature in sub-optimal if not outright terrible ways.
> 
> GOTOs are far to easy to abuse. The harm that they do is outweighed a
> thousand times by the rare positive use. Most languages do well to avoid
> GOTO, even if that means that there are one or two rare uses that have to
> be written slightly sub-optimally for the lack.

That sounds very 1970s to me.

With the languages that I (and presumably you) grew up with using gotos was
too easy; not using was hard or impossible.
The most structured was Pascal which set out to be ornery by making one declare
labels. With everything else ? Fortran-IV, Basic, assembler ? it was next to 
impossible.

Cut to 2017 and take a random 20 year old brought up on python/java/ruby/javascript/haskell

Where/how would he have learnt to use gotos?

In short: In 1968 "Goto statement considered harmful" was a necessary viewpoint.
Today its a quasi-religious bias without basis.

Personal Note: Much of the direction that my programming/teaching has taken in
the last 30 years can be traced to a statement made by a teacher when I was graduating:

?What the goto does to control-structure, the assignment does to data-structure?


From steve+python at pearwood.info  Fri Apr 14 00:25:27 2017
From: steve+python at pearwood.info (Steve D'Aprano)
Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2017 14:25:27 +1000
Subject: Python and the need for speed
References: <768f9a44-5d90-4756-8a99-821253a491f8@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.5.1491710256.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <58e9e519$0$1528$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <mailman.9.1491728745.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <58ec9192$0$1602$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <oci97l$10u4$1@gioia.aioe.org>
 <58eceea2$0$1615$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <CAE6NSRD=xU_mNECNBU2w92Br=vgHJJVqSruGFrPB=vrbpkj0Nw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPjBxg_49OD_CNXUAHKjxYsUiLab4s_fCs_Ast3LyymB82zTCA@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.68.1491956914.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <4277c149-e136-4d33-91d5-d011df9149f1@googlegroups.com>
 <58edcdd2$0$1501$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
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 <58f03030$0$1598$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
Message-ID: <58f04f38$0$1611$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>

On Fri, 14 Apr 2017 12:13 pm, Steve D'Aprano wrote:

> There are a bazillion ugly, unreadable, unproductive but slow languages if
> you want them:

Er, I mean *fast*.




-- 
Steve
?Cheer up,? they said, ?things could be worse.? So I cheered up, and sure
enough, things got worse.



From auriocus at gmx.de  Fri Apr 14 02:29:22 2017
From: auriocus at gmx.de (Christian Gollwitzer)
Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2017 08:29:22 +0200
Subject: Python and the need for speed
In-Reply-To: <87a87kzbo3.fsf@elektro.pacujo.net>
References: <768f9a44-5d90-4756-8a99-821253a491f8@googlegroups.com>
 <CAPTjJmrMWpzGd9Lf_sa-mscvqezY01U5kDCPRh07Nuivvxo8yg@mail.gmail.com>
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 <58e9e519$0$1528$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
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 <58ec9192$0$1602$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <87a87mn8rc.fsf@nightsong.com>
 <58ed8c02$0$1620$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
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 <CAPTjJmrHEkTNu8X+ztUgRpLtTrY2tf0RMFF2wtvy2+Ko3bfkmA@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.73.1491965716.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <87r30yjlfd.fsf@nightsong.com> <878tn6djq6.fsf@elektro.pacujo.net>
 <el8qvvF9nfU1@mid.individual.net> <87o9w0d6nc.fsf@elektro.pacujo.net>
 <58ef7429$0$1596$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <87a87kzbo3.fsf@elektro.pacujo.net>
Message-ID: <ocpq28$mbs$1@dont-email.me>

Am 13.04.17 um 15:20 schrieb Marko Rauhamaa:
>
> Not sure if this is still valid:
>
>    Still today Flash RAM cells built in SSDs have a limited lifespan.
>    Every write (not read) cycle or better every erasure wears a memory
>    cell and at some time it will stop working.
>
>    <URL: https://askubuntu.com/questions/652337/why-no-swap-partition
>    s-on-ssd-drives>
>

It is true, in general, but the lifetime has gotten MUCH better due to 
overprovisioning and intelligent wear leveling. The German computer 
magazine c't has tested a few current SSDs by filling them over and over 
again with random numbers 24/7 until they failed [1]. For these drives 
with a capacity of 256GB, the manufacturers guaranteed ~70 TB written to 
them, for Samsung 850 Pro and SanDisk Extreme 150TB were guaranteed. 
Most drives withstood much more data, the best one being the Samsung 850 
Pro, which did not fail until they ended the test after writing 4600 TB 
in half a year. The others failed at ~1000 TB.

So, unless you really plan to fully use them as a cache for number 
crunching TB sized data blocks, they will practically not fail.
The failure mode, however, was very abrupt - unlike from a hard drive, 
where you can sometimes recover portions of the data, the full drive is 
completely dead from one point on.


	Christian

[1] 
https://www.heise.de/newsticker/meldung/SSDs-im-Stresstest-mit-ueberraschenden-Ergebnissen-3580824.html




From greg.ewing at canterbury.ac.nz  Fri Apr 14 03:06:14 2017
From: greg.ewing at canterbury.ac.nz (Gregory Ewing)
Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2017 19:06:14 +1200
Subject: Goto Considered Harmful [was Re: Python and the need for speed]
In-Reply-To: <58f026d9$0$1612$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
References: <768f9a44-5d90-4756-8a99-821253a491f8@googlegroups.com>
 <CAPTjJmrMWpzGd9Lf_sa-mscvqezY01U5kDCPRh07Nuivvxo8yg@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.5.1491710256.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <el01fmF900sU1@mid.individual.net>
 <CAE6NSRDLV5_f6uuUoX8EL0Y-6AiFT3wcw_UrQ50oFDwFJ8YAPw@mail.gmail.com>
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 <a7ded978-42fe-43f3-ad75-c94e13f67dad@googlegroups.com>
 <CAE6NSRCWPpWpUJYS2RmeU4aN9Qb8fnV=TvY+50JyLA5cC2Yezw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPjBxg-pR0xO-doK6zo9mTnUgh-=PMbVmKp7odvuSFtcLqimtw@mail.gmail.com>
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 <58efb8de$0$1618$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
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 <58f026d9$0$1612$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
Message-ID: <elban9Ff1n9U1@mid.individual.net>

Steve D'Aprano wrote:

> If PIC is so great, why do no other languages have it?

Something akin to it has turned up in other places, although
usually in the guise of an output formatting facility rather
than a way of describing how data is stored internally.
For example, the PRINT USING found in some BASIC dialects.

-- 
Greg


From greg.ewing at canterbury.ac.nz  Fri Apr 14 03:17:04 2017
From: greg.ewing at canterbury.ac.nz (Gregory Ewing)
Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2017 19:17:04 +1200
Subject: Goto Considered Harmful [was Re: Python and the need for speed]
In-Reply-To: <mailman.172.1492130949.2951.python-list@python.org>
References: <768f9a44-5d90-4756-8a99-821253a491f8@googlegroups.com>
 <CAPTjJmrMWpzGd9Lf_sa-mscvqezY01U5kDCPRh07Nuivvxo8yg@mail.gmail.com>
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 <58efb8de$0$1618$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <3fbbdbde-107c-4ebb-b608-fd370c0ce72f@googlegroups.com>
 <CAPjBxg8YQm1m2m-6WrXA2pGzgRqcqyoGTUn6xY5MXVVuSXHpHg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALwzidm8ptj_LcH3exTL0JFcChErALAS4moRvT-nNj7WWAcTVw@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.172.1492130949.2951.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <elbbbjFf5feU1@mid.individual.net>

Ian Kelly wrote:
> Yikes. I never took the time to learn COBOL, but that almost sounds
> like something that you'd find in an esoteric language like INTERCAL.

COBOL has other fun stuff like that, too. For example, the
destination of a GOTO statement can be changed from elsewhere
in the program:

https://www.ibm.com/support/knowledgecenter/SSAE4W_7.1.0/com.ibm.etools.iseries.langref.doc/c0925395347.htm

Not quite COMEFROM, but it's getting close!

-- 
Greg


From marko at pacujo.net  Fri Apr 14 03:52:14 2017
From: marko at pacujo.net (Marko Rauhamaa)
Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2017 10:52:14 +0300
Subject: Goto Considered Harmful [was Re: Python and the need for speed]
References: <768f9a44-5d90-4756-8a99-821253a491f8@googlegroups.com>
 <CAPTjJmrMWpzGd9Lf_sa-mscvqezY01U5kDCPRh07Nuivvxo8yg@mail.gmail.com>
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 <el01fmF900sU1@mid.individual.net>
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 <elban9Ff1n9U1@mid.individual.net>
Message-ID: <87r30vctox.fsf@elektro.pacujo.net>

Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing at canterbury.ac.nz>:

> Steve D'Aprano wrote:
>
>> If PIC is so great, why do no other languages have it?
>
> Something akin to it has turned up in other places, although usually
> in the guise of an output formatting facility rather than a way of
> describing how data is stored internally. For example, the PRINT USING
> found in some BASIC dialects.

You have the storage thing in SQL:

    CHAR(4)
    VARCHAR(256)
    YEAR(2)
    DECIMAL(5,2)


Marko


From marko at pacujo.net  Fri Apr 14 04:13:00 2017
From: marko at pacujo.net (Marko Rauhamaa)
Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2017 11:13:00 +0300
Subject: Python and the need for speed
References: <768f9a44-5d90-4756-8a99-821253a491f8@googlegroups.com>
 <CAPTjJmrMWpzGd9Lf_sa-mscvqezY01U5kDCPRh07Nuivvxo8yg@mail.gmail.com>
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 <mailman.73.1491965716.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <87r30yjlfd.fsf@nightsong.com> <878tn6djq6.fsf@elektro.pacujo.net>
 <el8qvvF9nfU1@mid.individual.net> <87o9w0d6nc.fsf@elektro.pacujo.net>
 <58ef7429$0$1596$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <87a87kzbo3.fsf@elektro.pacujo.net> <ocpq28$mbs$1@dont-email.me>
Message-ID: <87mvbjcsqb.fsf@elektro.pacujo.net>

Christian Gollwitzer <auriocus at gmx.de>:

> Am 13.04.17 um 15:20 schrieb Marko Rauhamaa:
>>
>> Not sure if this is still valid:
>>
>>    Still today Flash RAM cells built in SSDs have a limited lifespan.
>>    Every write (not read) cycle or better every erasure wears a memory
>>    cell and at some time it will stop working.
>>
>>    <URL: https://askubuntu.com/questions/652337/why-no-swap-partition
>>    s-on-ssd-drives>
>>
>
> It is true, in general, but the lifetime has gotten MUCH better due to
> overprovisioning and intelligent wear leveling. [...]
>
> For these drives with a capacity of 256GB, the manufacturers
> guaranteed ~70 TB written to them, for Samsung 850 Pro and SanDisk
> Extreme 150TB were guaranteed. Most drives withstood much more data,
> the best one being the Samsung 850 Pro, which did not fail until they
> ended the test after writing 4600 TB in half a year. The others failed
> at ~1000 TB.

None of those numbers sound all that high to me. It's a catch-22: if you
rarely use swap, you don't have a problem, but you probably don't need
swap space to begin with. However, if you want to lean on swap space
heavily and create a Python program that operates on 100 GB of memory,
garbage collections are going to create quite a rewrite load on the
disk.


Marko


From bc at freeuk.com  Fri Apr 14 06:05:18 2017
From: bc at freeuk.com (bartc)
Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2017 11:05:18 +0100
Subject: "Goto" statement in Python
In-Reply-To: <58f0299c$0$1620$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
References: <wkJHA.687076$nT1.272081@fx44.am4>
 <CAPTjJmpUVY00qRTG2PkzeB7K2UcnYbKggTYm0Hj7ijTC9xQzvg@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.145.1492094128.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <vgMHA.892496$3B6.564039@fx40.am4>
 <58f0299c$0$1620$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
Message-ID: <j91IA.971948$qK5.139264@fx45.am4>

On 14/04/2017 02:44, Steve D'Aprano wrote:
> On Fri, 14 Apr 2017 12:52 am, bartc wrote:
>
>> I know this isn't the Python need-for-speed thread, but this is a
>> classic example where the lack of one simple feature leads to using
>> slower, more cumbersome ones.
>
> Dear gods, have I fallen back in time to 1975 again?
>
> The Goto Wars are over, and the structured programming camp won the war
> decisively.
>
> Are functions/procedures *technically* slower than GOTOs? Yes. So what?
> You're nano-optimizing the wrong thing: you're saving a microsecond of
> runtime at the cost of a megasecond of development and maintenance time.

Usually, yes. (And when you run CPython, whatever speed you do get, is 
partly thanks to compiler writers choosing jumps, or in-lining, over 
function calls. All those nanoseconds add up.)

However my comment wasn't specifically about goto. It's about using a 
slower feature to get around the lack of another feature that could have 
been implemented efficiently.

>> Function calls, returns and generators are rather more heavyweight in
>> comparison.
>
> And enormously better.

It depends if your application is speed-sensitive. Much scripting code 
isn't, or if it is, most of the work is done outside the language.

But sometimes you want your dynamic code to do some actual work of its 
own that involves executing byte-code, rather than calling some compiled 
code. And performance can matter.

-- 
bartc


From bc at freeuk.com  Fri Apr 14 06:42:39 2017
From: bc at freeuk.com (bartc)
Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2017 11:42:39 +0100
Subject: Python and the need for speed
In-Reply-To: <58f03030$0$1598$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
References: <768f9a44-5d90-4756-8a99-821253a491f8@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.5.1491710256.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <58e9e519$0$1528$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
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 <CAPjBxg_49OD_CNXUAHKjxYsUiLab4s_fCs_Ast3LyymB82zTCA@mail.gmail.com>
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 <58f03030$0$1598$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
Message-ID: <kI1IA.411503$QG3.288896@fx17.am4>

On 14/04/2017 03:13, Steve D'Aprano wrote:
> On Wed, 12 Apr 2017 07:56 pm, bart4858 at gmail.com wrote:

> if you care most about program correctness, type-safety and
> correctness proofs, choosing C is probably the wrong decision.

CPython is written in C; bad choice?

>> (** Although I find code full of class definitions, one-liners, decorators
>> and all the other esoterics, [incomprehensible]... I'm not the only
>> one, so perhaps readability isn't too much of a priority either.)
>
> Classes and decorators are not esoteric. You sound like an old man who
> complains about this new-fangled "telephone", and how things were so much
> better when we had messenger boys to deliver messages anywhere in the city.

These days I like code to be as simple and obvious as possible. I guess 
no one's going to complain when it is!

> I'm not sure what you consider incomprehensible about "one liners", surely
> it depends on what the one liner does. These are pretty clear to me:
>
> # The archetypal "Hello World!" program is a one-liner.
> print("Hello World!")
>
> # One liner to calculate the sum of the first 50 cubes.
> total = sum(i**3 for i in range(50))

Those are fine. I means when lots of things are arranged on one line, 
where the output of one method feeds into the next.

Vertical space is free after all.

However, you might argue that having discrete, intermediate steps would 
be a little slower than one-lining..

-- 
bartc


From rosuav at gmail.com  Fri Apr 14 06:56:05 2017
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2017 20:56:05 +1000
Subject: Python and the need for speed
In-Reply-To: <kI1IA.411503$QG3.288896@fx17.am4>
References: <768f9a44-5d90-4756-8a99-821253a491f8@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.5.1491710256.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <58e9e519$0$1528$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
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Message-ID: <CAPTjJmrPWBXdmVKa7BFDDtYoD-o+xoBuLPyPHH7X1V-1mdP=rA@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Apr 14, 2017 at 8:42 PM, bartc <bc at freeuk.com> wrote:
>> Classes and decorators are not esoteric. You sound like an old man who
>> complains about this new-fangled "telephone", and how things were so much
>> better when we had messenger boys to deliver messages anywhere in the
>> city.
>
>
> These days I like code to be as simple and obvious as possible. I guess no
> one's going to complain when it is!

Everyone says that, but there's a stark division between two groups of people:

1) Those who think the code should have an obvious concrete meaning -
that you should be able to see exactly what bits get flipped in memory
2) Those who think the code should have an obvious abstract meaning -
that you should be able to see exactly what the programmer intended.

Declarative notations like decorators can beautifully provide the
second, even though they might obscure the first. For example:

@app.route("/hello/<name>")
def greet(name):
    return f"A very warm hello to you too, {name}!"

Nice, clean code that might be found in a Flask application. In
concrete terms, there's a lot going on, but in abstract terms it's
simple: when this kind of URL is requested, return this formatted
string.

I'm of the opinion that the concrete meaning is insignificant, and
your code should clearly portray its abstract meaning. So classes,
decorators, etc, etc, etc are all excellent tools for *improving*
readability.

Of course, if you feel the other way, you're most welcome to write
everything in C.

ChrisA


From bc at freeuk.com  Fri Apr 14 08:04:31 2017
From: bc at freeuk.com (bartc)
Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2017 13:04:31 +0100
Subject: Python and the need for speed
In-Reply-To: <mailman.177.1492167369.2951.python-list@python.org>
References: <768f9a44-5d90-4756-8a99-821253a491f8@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.5.1491710256.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <58e9e519$0$1528$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <mailman.9.1491728745.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <58ec9192$0$1602$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <oci97l$10u4$1@gioia.aioe.org>
 <58eceea2$0$1615$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <CAE6NSRD=xU_mNECNBU2w92Br=vgHJJVqSruGFrPB=vrbpkj0Nw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPjBxg_49OD_CNXUAHKjxYsUiLab4s_fCs_Ast3LyymB82zTCA@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.68.1491956914.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <4277c149-e136-4d33-91d5-d011df9149f1@googlegroups.com>
 <58edcdd2$0$1501$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
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 <mailman.177.1492167369.2951.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <4V2IA.973357$qK5.728302@fx45.am4>

On 14/04/2017 11:56, Chris Angelico wrote:
> On Fri, Apr 14, 2017 at 8:42 PM, bartc <bc at freeuk.com> wrote:
>>> Classes and decorators are not esoteric. You sound like an old man who
>>> complains about this new-fangled "telephone", and how things were so much
>>> better when we had messenger boys to deliver messages anywhere in the
>>> city.
>>
>>
>> These days I like code to be as simple and obvious as possible. I guess no
>> one's going to complain when it is!
>
> Everyone says that, but there's a stark division between two groups of people:
>
> 1) Those who think the code should have an obvious concrete meaning -
> that you should be able to see exactly what bits get flipped in memory
> 2) Those who think the code should have an obvious abstract meaning -
> that you should be able to see exactly what the programmer intended.
>
> Declarative notations like decorators can beautifully provide the
> second, even though they might obscure the first. For example:
>
> @app.route("/hello/<name>")
> def greet(name):
>     return f"A very warm hello to you too, {name}!"
>
> Nice, clean code that might be found in a Flask application. In
> concrete terms, there's a lot going on, but in abstract terms it's
> simple: when this kind of URL is requested, return this formatted
> string.
>
> I'm of the opinion that the concrete meaning is insignificant, and
> your code should clearly portray its abstract meaning. So classes,
> decorators, etc, etc, etc are all excellent tools for *improving*
> readability.

C++ has classes, templates and so on, all of which can be argued can 
improve readability (when you eventually find that code that actually 
does something).

But somehow it doesn't really work. Because such features are overused? 
I don't know. I do know that if I want to port some program (be it in 
Python or C++), or simply try and understand it, if I see it's full of 
class definitions or whatever, then I won't bother.

> Of course, if you feel the other way, you're most welcome to write
> everything in C.

'pseudo-code' is often the language used to describe an algorithm in 
terms that are independent of any particular language. It doesn't 
usually contain classes or decorators.

-- 
bartc


From rosuav at gmail.com  Fri Apr 14 09:04:46 2017
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2017 23:04:46 +1000
Subject: Python and the need for speed
In-Reply-To: <4V2IA.973357$qK5.728302@fx45.am4>
References: <768f9a44-5d90-4756-8a99-821253a491f8@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.5.1491710256.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <58e9e519$0$1528$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <mailman.9.1491728745.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <58ec9192$0$1602$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <oci97l$10u4$1@gioia.aioe.org>
 <58eceea2$0$1615$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <CAE6NSRD=xU_mNECNBU2w92Br=vgHJJVqSruGFrPB=vrbpkj0Nw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPjBxg_49OD_CNXUAHKjxYsUiLab4s_fCs_Ast3LyymB82zTCA@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.68.1491956914.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <4277c149-e136-4d33-91d5-d011df9149f1@googlegroups.com>
 <58edcdd2$0$1501$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
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 <58f03030$0$1598$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <kI1IA.411503$QG3.288896@fx17.am4>
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 <mailman.177.1492167369.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <4V2IA.973357$qK5.728302@fx45.am4>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmp0rrZsSsD-iAJYJpZT5-9DVZKLy1xKbFaDXBKttKQRJw@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Apr 14, 2017 at 10:04 PM, bartc <bc at freeuk.com> wrote:
>
>> Of course, if you feel the other way, you're most welcome to write
>> everything in C.
>
>
> 'pseudo-code' is often the language used to describe an algorithm in terms
> that are independent of any particular language. It doesn't usually contain
> classes or decorators.

Decorators no, classes sometimes. And then you try to transform that
pseudocode into executable code as closely as possible, and you need
some sort of feature that makes these things functional. For instance,
the pseudocode for the example I gave might be:

/hello/[name]:
    return "A very warm hello to you too, [name]!"

ChrisA


From Bernd.Nawothnig at t-online.de  Fri Apr 14 09:22:12 2017
From: Bernd.Nawothnig at t-online.de (Bernd Nawothnig)
Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2017 15:22:12 +0200
Subject: Python Command Line Arguments
References: <f1a2d3e9-11ed-4334-bdb1-9957ba19781b@googlegroups.com>
 <CANy1k1hnHM42uu+M0OQhdinJkNC9MXxBwKF3S01Pd64HhGmy3w@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.113.1492050793.2951.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <41v6sd-6ve.ln1@bernd.nawothnig.dialin.t-online.de>

On 2017-04-13, Jason Friedman wrote:
>> I have this code which I got from https://www.tutorialspoint.
>> com/python/python_command_line_arguments.htm The example works fine but
>> when I modify it to what I need, it only half works. The problem is the
>> try/except. If you don't specify an input/output, they are blank at the end
>> but it shouldn't be.
>>
>> import getopt
>> import sys
>
> I am guessing you are wanting to parse command-line arguments rather than
> particularly wanting to use the getopt module.
> If I am correct you might want to spend your time instead learning the
> argparse module:
> https://docs.python.org/3/library/argparse.html
> https://docs.python.org/3/howto/argparse.html

He should switch to argparse in any case because getopt is no longer
supported and does only receive bugfixes.




Bernd

-- 
Die Antisemiten vergeben es den Juden nicht, dass die Juden ?Geist?
haben ? und Geld. Die Antisemiten ? ein Name der
?Schlechtweggekommenenen? [Friedrich Nietzsche]


From Bernd.Nawothnig at t-online.de  Fri Apr 14 09:30:39 2017
From: Bernd.Nawothnig at t-online.de (Bernd Nawothnig)
Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2017 15:30:39 +0200
Subject: "Goto" statement in Python
References: <CAE6NSRC=M1E+1_rX6T2Fa-zgUarwMvAn91W2SyNkodGhj6RKhQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.110.1492041148.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <ocmfta$9j1$1@dont-email.me>
 <CAE6NSRDLbFk7gNAugWfsUGUSsmDmD5WwZkQA9SwREStV5d7h7Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALwzid=53FhAkbus8LYCxPMyiouQSf=n5Wizq_H7J1imWy58tA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAE6NSRC-5J86-BL4mgGxCHzhfubJFF_5BVsk39WL4ewrJw04ug@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.152.1492104360.2951.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <vgv6sd-6ve.ln1@bernd.nawothnig.dialin.t-online.de>

On 2017-04-13, Mikhail V wrote:
> On 13 April 2017 at 18:48, Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly at gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Thu, Apr 13, 2017 at 10:23 AM, Mikhail V <mikhailwas at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Now I wonder, have we already collected *all* bells and whistles of Python
>>> in these two examples, or is there something else for expressing trivial thing.
>>
>> Functions and exceptions are considered "bells and whistles"?
>
> You mean probably classes and exceptions? For me, indeed they are,
> but it depends.
>
> And breaking the code into def() chunks that are not
> functions but just chunks... I don't know, looks bad.

Organising code in a bunch of small functions is by far better coding
style and better readable than put it all together in one chunk. And
that holds for all programming languages, not only for Python.



Bernd

-- 
Die Antisemiten vergeben es den Juden nicht, dass die Juden ?Geist?
haben ? und Geld. Die Antisemiten ? ein Name der
?Schlechtweggekommenenen? [Friedrich Nietzsche]


From Bernd.Nawothnig at t-online.de  Fri Apr 14 09:43:54 2017
From: Bernd.Nawothnig at t-online.de (Bernd Nawothnig)
Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2017 15:43:54 +0200
Subject: "Goto" statement in Python
References: <CAE6NSRC=M1E+1_rX6T2Fa-zgUarwMvAn91W2SyNkodGhj6RKhQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.110.1492041148.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <ocmfta$9j1$1@dont-email.me>
 <CAE6NSRDLbFk7gNAugWfsUGUSsmDmD5WwZkQA9SwREStV5d7h7Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALwzid=53FhAkbus8LYCxPMyiouQSf=n5Wizq_H7J1imWy58tA@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.151.1492102162.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <44db5cea-8831-4951-baa0-a50d99a79b1c@googlegroups.com>
 <ococ6q$n1s$1@dont-email.me> <ocofpl$ia1$1@blaine.gmane.org>
 <mailman.160.1492107907.2951.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <q907sd-6ve.ln1@bernd.nawothnig.dialin.t-online.de>

On 2017-04-13, Grant Edwards wrote:
> On 2017-04-13, Rob Gaddi <rgaddi at highlandtechnology.invalid> wrote:
>
>> No, C doesn't support exception handling.  As a result, handling error 
>> conditions in C is a huge pain for which (forward-only) goto is often, 
>> while not the only remedy, the least painful one.
>
> Indeed. That is almost the only place I use 'goto' in C, and the
> almost the only place I see others use it.  Very occasionally, you see
> a the error handling goto refactored into a backwards "goto retry":
>
> this code
>
> foo()
>   {
>   while (1)
>     {
>       <some code>
>       if (<some-error-condition>)
>            goto error:
>       <more code>
>       return;
>
>     error:
>       <recover-from-error-condition>
>     }
>   }

foo()
  {
  int done = 0;
  while (! done)
    {
      <some code>
      if (<some-error-condition>) {
        <recover-from-error-condition>
      } else {
        done = 1;
        <more code>
     }
  }




Bernd

-- 
Die Antisemiten vergeben es den Juden nicht, dass die Juden ?Geist?
haben ? und Geld. Die Antisemiten ? ein Name der
?Schlechtweggekommenenen? [Friedrich Nietzsche]


From cl at isbd.net  Fri Apr 14 10:00:09 2017
From: cl at isbd.net (Chris Green)
Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2017 15:00:09 +0100
Subject: "Goto" statement in Python
References: <CAE6NSRC=M1E+1_rX6T2Fa-zgUarwMvAn91W2SyNkodGhj6RKhQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.110.1492041148.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <ocmfta$9j1$1@dont-email.me>
 <CAE6NSRDLbFk7gNAugWfsUGUSsmDmD5WwZkQA9SwREStV5d7h7Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALwzid=53FhAkbus8LYCxPMyiouQSf=n5Wizq_H7J1imWy58tA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAE6NSRC-5J86-BL4mgGxCHzhfubJFF_5BVsk39WL4ewrJw04ug@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.152.1492104360.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <vgv6sd-6ve.ln1@bernd.nawothnig.dialin.t-online.de>
Message-ID: <9817sd-k4m.ln1@esprimo.zbmc.eu>

Bernd Nawothnig <Bernd.Nawothnig at t-online.de> wrote:
> On 2017-04-13, Mikhail V wrote:
> > On 13 April 2017 at 18:48, Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly at gmail.com> wrote:
> >> On Thu, Apr 13, 2017 at 10:23 AM, Mikhail V <mikhailwas at gmail.com> wrote:
> >>> Now I wonder, have we already collected *all* bells and whistles of Python
> >>> in these two examples, or is there something else for expressing trivial thing.
> >>
> >> Functions and exceptions are considered "bells and whistles"?
> >
> > You mean probably classes and exceptions? For me, indeed they are,
> > but it depends.
> >
> > And breaking the code into def() chunks that are not
> > functions but just chunks... I don't know, looks bad.
> 
> Organising code in a bunch of small functions is by far better coding
> style and better readable than put it all together in one chunk. And
> that holds for all programming languages, not only for Python.
> 
The functions need *some* reason for being an entity though.

-- 
Chris Green
?


From rosuav at gmail.com  Fri Apr 14 10:17:18 2017
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2017 00:17:18 +1000
Subject: "Goto" statement in Python
In-Reply-To: <apl1fcpi4qleruku0pp3fll8b00f9m3a6q@4ax.com>
References: <wkJHA.687076$nT1.272081@fx44.am4>
 <CAPTjJmpUVY00qRTG2PkzeB7K2UcnYbKggTYm0Hj7ijTC9xQzvg@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.145.1492094128.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <vgMHA.892496$3B6.564039@fx40.am4>
 <42rvech210hf4il6c4h7q5eoli5toiv8mk@4ax.com>
 <CALwzidk1gW7q8gsMjxhgQg+1=X_+sxBh+TibN4+h+eMasch+Ww@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.167.1492120781.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <4pTHA.695356$nT1.588759@fx44.am4>
 <CALwzidkc+hgX5Z93YsKSs8n7-vvFdnDT0Q5Wsy40FGnpXv-iTw@mail.gmail.com>
 <apl1fcpi4qleruku0pp3fll8b00f9m3a6q@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmrh9t9UP=Ry7qy8qT5hn9w=YWS+JQJo1UXjwQt-VijezA@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Apr 15, 2017 at 12:13 AM, Dennis Lee Bieber
<wlfraed at ix.netcom.com> wrote:
> On Thu, 13 Apr 2017 18:36:57 -0600, Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly at gmail.com>
> declaimed the following:
>
>>
>>Well, you can do it in Assembly. And BASIC, if you count the primitive
>>GOSUB-type subroutines, though modern BASICs have real subroutines
>>that don't allow it.
>>
>         REXX probably allows it too... (No GOTO, but the SIGNAL statement can
> do unconditional jumps to named labels)... Hmmm, if I read the manual
> correctly, any use of SIGNAL will terminate loops, even if the SIGNAL and
> target are both within the same loop.

This is correct. Annoyingly, it also wipes out indentation in the
TRACE output, so you really want to use it *only* for error handling
(which is its stated purpose).

ChrisA


From kasperseidem.gamer at gmail.com  Fri Apr 14 10:27:08 2017
From: kasperseidem.gamer at gmail.com (Kasper)
Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2017 07:27:08 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Hi! i need some help with a program in python on Raspberry pi3.
Message-ID: <b4e7ff72-e407-4c2c-a95a-87b02be96b58@googlegroups.com>

every time i run the program i get this messeage:

Traceback (most recent call last):
  File "smartmirror.py", line 159, in get_weather
    temprature2 = "%S%S" % (str(int(weather_obj['currently']['temperature'])),
degree_sign)
KeyError: 'currently'
Error: 'currently'. Cannot get weather.

How do i fix that?

Here is the program:


# smartmirror.py
# requirements
# requests, feedparser, traceback, Pillow

from Tkinter import *
import locale
import threading
import time
import requests
import json
import traceback
import feedparser
from PIL import Image, ImageTk
from contextlib import contextmanager

LOCALE_LOCK = threading.Lock()

ui_locale = '' # e.g. 'fr_FR' fro French, '' as default
time_format = 24 # 12 or 24
date_format = "%b %d, %Y" # check python doc for strftime() for options
news_country_code = 'nb'
weather_api_token = '16dc67b56f94f8083b1afed7e69c5dc1' # create account at https://darksky.net/dev/
weather_lang = 'nb' # see https://darksky.net/dev/docs/forecast for full list of language parameters values
weather_unit = 'nb' # see https://darksky.net/dev/docs/forecast for full list of unit parameters values
latitude = (59.1311800) # Set this if IP location lookup does not work for you (must be a string)
longitude = (10.2166500) # Set this if IP location lookup does not work for you (must be a string)
xlarge_text_size = 94
large_text_size = 48
medium_text_size = 28
small_text_size = 18

@contextmanager
def setlocale(name): #thread proof function to work with locale
    with LOCALE_LOCK:
        saved = locale.setlocale(locale.LC_ALL)
        try:
            yield locale.setlocale(locale.LC_ALL, name)
        finally:
            locale.setlocale(locale.LC_ALL, saved)

# maps open weather icons to
# icon reading is not impacted by the 'lang' parameter
icon_lookup = {
    'clear-day': "assets/Sun.png",  # clear sky day
    'wind': "assets/Wind.png",   #wind
    'cloudy': "assets/Cloud.png",  # cloudy day
    'partly-cloudy-day': "assets/PartlySunny.png",  # partly cloudy day
    'rain': "assets/Rain.png",  # rain day
    'snow': "assets/Snow.png",  # snow day
    'snow-thin': "assets/Snow.png",  # sleet day
    'fog': "assets/Haze.png",  # fog day
    'clear-night': "assets/Moon.png",  # clear sky night
    'partly-cloudy-night': "assets/PartlyMoon.png",  # scattered clouds night
    'thunderstorm': "assets/Storm.png",  # thunderstorm
    'tornado': "assests/Tornado.png",    # tornado
    'hail': "assests/Hail.png"  # hail
}


class Clock(Frame):
    def __init__(self, parent, *args, **kwargs):
        Frame.__init__(self, parent, bg='black')
        # initialize time label
        self.time1 = ''
        self.timeLbl = Label(self, font=('Helvetica', large_text_size), fg="white", bg="black")
        self.timeLbl.pack(side=TOP, anchor=E)
        # initialize day of week
        self.day_of_week1 = ''
        self.dayOWLbl = Label(self, text=self.day_of_week1, font=('Helvetica', small_text_size), fg="white", bg="black")
        self.dayOWLbl.pack(side=TOP, anchor=E)
        # initialize date label
        self.date1 = ''
        self.dateLbl = Label(self, text=self.date1, font=('Helvetica', small_text_size), fg="white", bg="black")
        self.dateLbl.pack(side=TOP, anchor=E)
        self.tick()

    def tick(self):
        with setlocale(ui_locale):
            if time_format == 12:
                time2 = time.strftime('%I:%M %p') #hour in 12h format
            else:
                time2 = time.strftime('%H:%M') #hour in 24h format

            day_of_week2 = time.strftime('%A')
            date2 = time.strftime(date_format)
            # if time string has changed, update it
            if time2 != self.time1:
                self.time1 = time2
                self.timeLbl.config(text=time2)
            if day_of_week2 != self.day_of_week1:
                self.day_of_week1 = day_of_week2
                self.dayOWLbl.config(text=day_of_week2)
            if date2 != self.date1:
                self.date1 = date2
                self.dateLbl.config(text=date2)
            # calls itself every 200 milliseconds
            # to update the time display as needed
            # could use >200 ms, but display gets jerky
            self.timeLbl.after(200, self.tick)


class Weather(Frame):
    def __init__(self, parent, *args, **kwargs):
        Frame.__init__(self, parent, bg='black')
        self.temperature = ''
        self.forecast = ''
        self.location = ''
        self.currently = ''
        self.icon = ''
        self.degreeFrm = Frame(self, bg="black")
        self.degreeFrm.pack(side=TOP, anchor=W)
        self.temperatureLbl = Label(self.degreeFrm, font=('Helvetica', xlarge_text_size), fg="white", bg="black")
        self.temperatureLbl.pack(side=LEFT, anchor=N)
        self.iconLbl = Label(self.degreeFrm, bg="black")
        self.iconLbl.pack(side=LEFT, anchor=N, padx=20)
        self.currentlyLbl = Label(self, font=('Helvetica', medium_text_size), fg="white", bg="black")
        self.currentlyLbl.pack(side=TOP, anchor=W)
        self.forecastLbl = Label(self, font=('Helvetica', small_text_size), fg="white", bg="black")
        self.forecastLbl.pack(side=TOP, anchor=W)
        self.locationLbl = Label(self, font=('Helvetica', small_text_size), fg="white", bg="black")
        self.locationLbl.pack(side=TOP, anchor=W)
        self.get_weather()

    def get_ip(self):
        try:
            ip_url = "http://jsonip.com/"
            req = requests.get(ip_url)
            ip_json = json.loads(req.text)
            return ip_json['ip']
        except Exception as e:
            traceback.print_exc()
            return "Error: %s. Cannot get ip." % e

    def get_weather(self):
        try:

            if latitude is None and longitude is None:
                # get location
                location_req_url = "http://freegeoip.net/json/%s" % self.get_ip()
                r = requests.get(location_req_url)
                location_obj = json.loads(r.text)

                lat = location_obj['latitude']
                lon = location_obj['longitude']

                location2 = "%s, %s" % (location_obj['city'], location_obj['region_code'])

                # get weather
                weather_req_url = "https://api.darksky.net/forecast/%s/%s,%s?lang=%s&units=%s" % (weather_api_token, lat,lon,weather_lang,weather_unit)
            else:
                location2 = ""
                # get weather
                weather_req_url = "https://api.darksky.net/forecast/%s/%s,%s?lang=%s&units=%s" % (weather_api_token, latitude, longitude, weather_lang, weather_unit)

            r = requests.get(weather_req_url)
            weather_obj = json.loads(r.text)

            degree_sign= u'\N{DEGREE SIGN}'
            temperature2 = "%s%s" % (str(int(weather_obj['currently']['temperature'])), degree_sign)
            currently2 = weather_obj['currently']['summary']
            forecast2 = weather_obj["hourly"]["summary"]

            icon_id = weather_obj['currently']['icon']
            icon2 = None

            if icon_id in icon_lookup:
                icon2 = icon_lookup[icon_id]

            if icon2 is not None:
                if self.icon != icon2:
                    self.icon = icon2
                    image = Image.open(icon2)
                    image = image.resize((100, 100), Image.ANTIALIAS)
                    image = image.convert('RGB')
                    photo = ImageTk.PhotoImage(image)

                    self.iconLbl.config(image=photo)
                    self.iconLbl.image = photo
            else:
                # remove image
                self.iconLbl.config(image='')

            if self.currently != currently2:
                self.currently = currently2
                self.currentlyLbl.config(text=currently2)
            if self.forecast != forecast2:
                self.forecast = forecast2
                self.forecastLbl.config(text=forecast2)
            if self.temperature != temperature2:
                self.temperature = temperature2
                self.temperatureLbl.config(text=temperature2)
            if self.location != location2:
                if location2 == ", ":
                    self.location = "Cannot Pinpoint Location"
                    self.locationLbl.config(text="Cannot Pinpoint Location")
                else:
                    self.location = location2
                    self.locationLbl.config(text=location2)
        except Exception as e:
            traceback.print_exc()
            print ("Error: %s. Cannot get weather.") % e

        self.after(600000, self.get_weather)

    @staticmethod
    def convert_kelvin_to_fahrenheit(kelvin_temp):
        return 1.8 * (kelvin_temp - 273) + 32


class News(Frame):
    def __init__(self, parent, *args, **kwargs):
        Frame.__init__(self, parent, *args, **kwargs)
        self.config(bg='black')
        self.title = 'News' # 'News' is more internationally generic
        self.newsLbl = Label(self, text=self.title, font=('Helvetica', medium_text_size), fg="white", bg="black")
        self.newsLbl.pack(side=TOP, anchor=W)
        self.headlinesContainer = Frame(self, bg="black")
        self.headlinesContainer.pack(side=TOP)
        self.get_headlines()

    def get_headlines(self):
        try:
            # remove all children
            for widget in self.headlinesContainer.winfo_children():
                widget.destroy()
            if news_country_code == None:
                headlines_url = "https://news.google.com/news?ned=us&output=rss"
            else:
                headlines_url = "https://news.google.com/news?ned=%s&output=rss" % news_country_code

            feed = feedparser.parse(headlines_url)

            for post in feed.entries[0:5]:
                headline = NewsHeadline(self.headlinesContainer, post.title)
                headline.pack(side=TOP, anchor=W)
        except Exception as e:
            traceback.print_exc()
            print ("Error: %s. Cannot get news.") % e

        self.after(600000, self.get_headlines)


class NewsHeadline(Frame):
    def __init__(self, parent, event_name=""):
        Frame.__init__(self, parent, bg='black')

        image = Image.open("assets/Newspaper.png")
        image = image.resize((25, 25), Image.ANTIALIAS)
        image = image.convert('RGB')
        photo = ImageTk.PhotoImage(image)

        self.iconLbl = Label(self, bg='black', image=photo)
        self.iconLbl.image = photo
        self.iconLbl.pack(side=LEFT, anchor=N)

        self.eventName = event_name
        self.eventNameLbl = Label(self, text=self.eventName, font=('Helvetica', small_text_size), fg="white", bg="black")
        self.eventNameLbl.pack(side=LEFT, anchor=N)


class Calendar(Frame):
    def __init__(self, parent, *args, **kwargs):
        Frame.__init__(self, parent, bg='black')
        self.title = 'Calendar Events'
        self.calendarLbl = Label(self, text=self.title, font=('Helvetica', medium_text_size), fg="white", bg="black")
        self.calendarLbl.pack(side=TOP, anchor=E)
        self.calendarEventContainer = Frame(self, bg='black')
        self.calendarEventContainer.pack(side=TOP, anchor=E)
        self.get_events()

    def get_events(self):
        #TODO: implement this method
        # reference https://developers.google.com/google-apps/calendar/quickstart/python

        # remove all children
        for widget in self.calendarEventContainer.winfo_children():
            widget.destroy()

        calendar_event = CalendarEvent(self.calendarEventContainer)
        calendar_event.pack(side=TOP, anchor=E)
        pass


class CalendarEvent(Frame):
    def __init__(self, parent, event_name="Event 1"):
        Frame.__init__(self, parent, bg='black')
        self.eventName = event_name
        self.eventNameLbl = Label(self, text=self.eventName, font=('Helvetica', small_text_size), fg="white", bg="black")
        self.eventNameLbl.pack(side=TOP, anchor=E)


class FullscreenWindow:

    def __init__(self):
        self.tk = Tk()
        self.tk.configure(background='black')
        self.topFrame = Frame(self.tk, background = 'black')
        self.bottomFrame = Frame(self.tk, background = 'black')
        self.topFrame.pack(side = TOP, fill=BOTH, expand = YES)
        self.bottomFrame.pack(side = BOTTOM, fill=BOTH, expand = YES)
        self.state = False
        self.tk.bind("<Return>", self.toggle_fullscreen)
        self.tk.bind("<Escape>", self.end_fullscreen)
        # clock
        self.clock = Clock(self.topFrame)
        self.clock.pack(side=RIGHT, anchor=N, padx=100, pady=60)
        # weather
        self.weather = Weather(self.topFrame)
        self.weather.pack(side=LEFT, anchor=N, padx=100, pady=60)
        # news
        self.news = News(self.bottomFrame)
        self.news.pack(side=LEFT, anchor=S, padx=100, pady=60)
        # calender - removing for now
        # self.calender = Calendar(self.bottomFrame)
        # self.calender.pack(side = RIGHT, anchor=S, padx=100, pady=60)

    def toggle_fullscreen(self, event=None):
        self.state = not self.state  # Just toggling the boolean
        self.tk.attributes("-fullscreen", self.state)
        return "break"

    def end_fullscreen(self, event=None):
        self.state = False
        self.tk.attributes("-fullscreen", False)
        return "break"

if __name__ == '__main__':
    w = FullscreenWindow()
    w.tk.mainloop()



From steve+python at pearwood.info  Fri Apr 14 10:38:22 2017
From: steve+python at pearwood.info (Steve D'Aprano)
Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2017 00:38:22 +1000
Subject: Hi! i need some help with a program in python on Raspberry pi3.
References: <b4e7ff72-e407-4c2c-a95a-87b02be96b58@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <58f0dedf$0$1620$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>

On Sat, 15 Apr 2017 12:27 am, Kasper wrote:

> every time i run the program i get this messeage:
> 
> Traceback (most recent call last):
>   File "smartmirror.py", line 159, in get_weather
>     temprature2 = "%S%S" %
>     (str(int(weather_obj['currently']['temperature'])),
> degree_sign)
> KeyError: 'currently'
> Error: 'currently'. Cannot get weather.
> 
> How do i fix that?

We're unpaid volunteers, we're not being paid to debug your code. Don't dump
over 300 lines of code in our lap and expect us to debug it. If you can't
spend the time simplifying the problem and removing all the irrelevant
details, how can you expect us to do it for you?

If you want help, make it easy for people to help you. Cut your code down to
the simplest, shortest amount of code that demonstrates the problem. If
your code has nothing to do with the GUI, cut out all the GUI code.

More advice here:

http://sscce.org/




-- 
Steve
?Cheer up,? they said, ?things could be worse.? So I cheered up, and sure
enough, things got worse.



From breamoreboy at gmail.com  Fri Apr 14 10:57:00 2017
From: breamoreboy at gmail.com (breamoreboy at gmail.com)
Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2017 07:57:00 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Hi! i need some help with a program in python on Raspberry pi3.
In-Reply-To: <b4e7ff72-e407-4c2c-a95a-87b02be96b58@googlegroups.com>
References: <b4e7ff72-e407-4c2c-a95a-87b02be96b58@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <be410663-a3da-4959-8760-ec222fc87973@googlegroups.com>

On Friday, April 14, 2017 at 3:27:29 PM UTC+1, Kasper wrote:
> every time i run the program i get this messeage:
> 
> Traceback (most recent call last):
>   File "smartmirror.py", line 159, in get_weather
>     temprature2 = "%S%S" % (str(int(weather_obj['currently']['temperature'])),
> degree_sign)
> KeyError: 'currently'
> Error: 'currently'. Cannot get weather.
> 
> How do i fix that?
> 
> Here is the program:
> 
>             r = requests.get(weather_req_url)
>             weather_obj = json.loads(r.text)
> 
>             degree_sign= u'\N{DEGREE SIGN}'
>             temperature2 = "%s%s" % (str(int(weather_obj['currently']['temperature'])), degree_sign)

Find the correct name for the key by printing out `weather_obj`.  At least I think so, as the line above does not match the line that you've given.

Kindest regards.

Mark Lawrence.


From breamoreboy at gmail.com  Fri Apr 14 11:03:55 2017
From: breamoreboy at gmail.com (breamoreboy at gmail.com)
Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2017 08:03:55 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Python Command Line Arguments
In-Reply-To: <41v6sd-6ve.ln1@bernd.nawothnig.dialin.t-online.de>
References: <f1a2d3e9-11ed-4334-bdb1-9957ba19781b@googlegroups.com>
 <CANy1k1hnHM42uu+M0OQhdinJkNC9MXxBwKF3S01Pd64HhGmy3w@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.113.1492050793.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <41v6sd-6ve.ln1@bernd.nawothnig.dialin.t-online.de>
Message-ID: <0fe093c6-fa0a-45d2-961f-ecebea5ebbf6@googlegroups.com>

On Friday, April 14, 2017 at 2:44:09 PM UTC+1, Bernd Nawothnig wrote:
> On 2017-04-13, Jason Friedman wrote:
> >> I have this code which I got from https://www.tutorialspoint.
> >> com/python/python_command_line_arguments.htm The example works fine but
> >> when I modify it to what I need, it only half works. The problem is the
> >> try/except. If you don't specify an input/output, they are blank at the end
> >> but it shouldn't be.
> >>
> >> import getopt
> >> import sys
> >
> > I am guessing you are wanting to parse command-line arguments rather than
> > particularly wanting to use the getopt module.
> > If I am correct you might want to spend your time instead learning the
> > argparse module:
> > https://docs.python.org/3/library/argparse.html
> > https://docs.python.org/3/howto/argparse.html
> 
> He should switch to argparse in any case because getopt is no longer
> supported and does only receive bugfixes.
> 
> Bernd
> 
> -- 
> Die Antisemiten vergeben es den Juden nicht, dass die Juden ?Geist?
> haben ? und Geld. Die Antisemiten ? ein Name der
> ?Schlechtweggekommenenen? [Friedrich Nietzsche]

optparse is deprecated, not getopt.

Kindest regards.

Mark Lawrence.


From malik.a.rumi at gmail.com  Fri Apr 14 11:12:00 2017
From: malik.a.rumi at gmail.com (Malik Rumi)
Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2017 08:12:00 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Regular Expressions, Speed, Python, and NFA
Message-ID: <0e334222-676b-4a7b-91c2-1345592cced5@googlegroups.com>

I am running some tests using the site regex101 to figure out the correct regexs to use for a project. I was surprised at how slow it was, constantly needing to increase the timeouts. I went Googling for a reason, and solution, and found Russ Cox?s article from 2007: https://swtch.com/~rsc/regexp/regexp1.html . I couldn?t understand why, if this was even remotely correct, we don?t use NFA in Python, which led me here:

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!msg/comp.lang.python/L1ZFI_R2hAo/C12Nf3patWIJ;context-place=forum/comp.lang.python where all of these issues were addressed. Unfortunately, this is also from 2007. 

BTW, John Machin in one of his replies cites Navarro?s paper, but that link is broken. Navarro?s work can now be found at http://citeseer.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.21.3112&rep=rep1&type=pdf But be forewarned, it is 68 pages of dense reading. I am not a computer science major. I am not new to Python, but I don?t think I?m qualified to take on the idea of creating a new NFA module for Python.  

>Getting back to the "It would be nice ..." bit: yes, it would be nice
>to have even more smarts in re, but who's going to do it? It's not a
>"rainy Sunday afternoon" job :-)
>Cheers,
>John
-
>Well, just as an idea, there is a portable C library for this at?
>http://laurikari.net/tre/?released under LGPL. ?If one is willing to?
>give up PCRE extensions for speed, it might be worth the work to?
>wrap this library using SWIG.
>Kirk Sluder

(BTW, this link is also old. TRE is now at https://github.com/laurikari/tre/ )

I am not a computer science major. I am not new to Python, but I don?t think I?m qualified to take on the idea of creating a new NFA module for Python.  Nor am I entirely sure I want to try something new (to me) like TRE. 

Most threads related to this topic are older than 2007. I did find this https://groups.google.com/forum/#!searchin/comp.lang.python/regex$20speed%7Csort:relevance/comp.lang.python/O7rUwVoD2t0/NYAQM0mUX7sJ from 2011 but I did not do an exhaustive search. 

The bottom line is I wanted to know if anything has changed since 2007, and if there is a) any hope for improving regex speeds in Python, or b) some 3rd party module/library that is already out there and solves this problem? Or should I just take this advice?

>The cheap way in terms of programmer time is to pipe out to grep or
>awk on this one.
>Kirk Sluder

Thanks. 


From steve+python at pearwood.info  Fri Apr 14 12:17:35 2017
From: steve+python at pearwood.info (Steve D'Aprano)
Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2017 02:17:35 +1000
Subject: Regular Expressions, Speed, Python, and NFA
References: <0e334222-676b-4a7b-91c2-1345592cced5@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <58f0f621$0$1620$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>

On Sat, 15 Apr 2017 01:12 am, Malik Rumi wrote:

> I couldn?t understand why, if this was even remotely correct, 
> we don?t use NFA in Python
[...]

> I don?t think I?m qualified to take on the idea of creating 
> a new NFA module for Python. 

If not you, then who should do it?

Python is open source and written by volunteers. If you want something done,
there are only four possibilities:

- you do it yourself;

- you wait as long as it takes for somebody else to do it;

- you pay somebody to do it;

- or it doesn't get done.


If you're not willing or able to do the work yourself, does that help you
understand why we don't use NFA?



-- 
Steve
?Cheer up,? they said, ?things could be worse.? So I cheered up, and sure
enough, things got worse.



From jcasale at activenetwerx.com  Fri Apr 14 12:21:45 2017
From: jcasale at activenetwerx.com (Joseph L. Casale)
Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2017 16:21:45 +0000
Subject: Regular Expressions, Speed, Python, and NFA
In-Reply-To: <0e334222-676b-4a7b-91c2-1345592cced5@googlegroups.com>
References: <0e334222-676b-4a7b-91c2-1345592cced5@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <5171a0c5133244ada3d6847d2da1322b@activenetwerx.com>

-----Original Message-----
From: Python-list [mailto:python-list-
bounces+jcasale=activenetwerx.com at python.org] On Behalf Of Malik Rumi
Sent: Friday, April 14, 2017 9:12 AM
To: python-list at python.org
Subject: Regular Expressions, Speed, Python, and NFA

> I am running some tests using the site regex101 to figure out the correct
> regexs to use for a project. I was surprised at how slow it was, constantly
> needing to increase the timeouts. I went Googling for a reason, and solution,
> and found Russ Cox?s article from 2007:
> https://swtch.com/~rsc/regexp/regexp1.html . I couldn?t understand why, if
> this was even remotely correct, we don?t use NFA in Python, which led me
> here:

Do you have any sample data you can share?

From __peter__ at web.de  Fri Apr 14 12:22:44 2017
From: __peter__ at web.de (Peter Otten)
Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2017 18:22:44 +0200
Subject: Hi! i need some help with a program in python on Raspberry pi3.
References: <b4e7ff72-e407-4c2c-a95a-87b02be96b58@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <ocqt0f$f4g$1@blaine.gmane.org>

Kasper wrote:

> every time i run the program i get this messeage:
> 
> Traceback (most recent call last):
>   File "smartmirror.py", line 159, in get_weather
>     temprature2 = "%S%S" % (str(int(weather_obj['currently']
['temperature'])),
> degree_sign)
> KeyError: 'currently'
> Error: 'currently'. Cannot get weather.
> 
> How do i fix that?
> 
> Here is the program:
> 


> weather_api_token = '16dc67b56f94f8083b1afed7e69c5dc1' # create account at
> https://darksky.net/dev/ 

Oops, is that your personal token? You are probably not supposed to publish 
it and now run the risk of having it revoked.

> values weather_unit = 'nb' # see https://darksky.net/dev/docs/forecast for
> full list of unit parameters values
 
You have to replace nb with one of the allowed values listed on the site.

> weather_lang = 'nb' # see
> https://darksky.net/dev/docs/forecast for full list of language parameters

Again, you have to pick one of the values listed -- unless you want Norsk 
bokm?l that is.



From __peter__ at web.de  Fri Apr 14 12:39:25 2017
From: __peter__ at web.de (Peter Otten)
Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2017 18:39:25 +0200
Subject: Regular Expressions, Speed, Python, and NFA
References: <0e334222-676b-4a7b-91c2-1345592cced5@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <ocqtvo$c15$1@blaine.gmane.org>

Malik Rumi wrote:

> I am running some tests using the site regex101 to figure out the correct
> regexs to use for a project. I was surprised at how slow it was,
> constantly needing to increase the timeouts. I went Googling for a reason,
> and solution, and found Russ Cox?s article from 2007:
> https://swtch.com/~rsc/regexp/regexp1.html . I couldn?t understand why, if
> this was even remotely correct, we don?t use NFA in Python, which led me
> here:

You might try

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RE2_(software)

for which Python wrappers are available. However, 

"RE2 does not support back-references, which cannot be implemented 
efficiently."



From rgaddi at highlandtechnology.invalid  Fri Apr 14 13:07:41 2017
From: rgaddi at highlandtechnology.invalid (Rob Gaddi)
Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2017 10:07:41 -0700
Subject: "Goto" statement in Python
In-Reply-To: <mailman.182.1492179565.2951.python-list@python.org>
References: <wkJHA.687076$nT1.272081@fx44.am4>
 <CAPTjJmpUVY00qRTG2PkzeB7K2UcnYbKggTYm0Hj7ijTC9xQzvg@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.145.1492094128.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <vgMHA.892496$3B6.564039@fx40.am4>
 <58f0299c$0$1620$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <6cm1fc1k3i9bk9isv1i541t2i7f5euvsf7@4ax.com>
 <mailman.182.1492179565.2951.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <ocqvf5$c8$1@dont-email.me>

On 04/14/2017 07:19 AM, Dennis Lee Bieber wrote:
> On Fri, 14 Apr 2017 11:44:59 +1000, Steve D'Aprano
> <steve+python at pearwood.info> declaimed the following:
>
>>
>> Even that's not enough for some. Donald Knuth, who supports the use of GOTO
>> under some circumstances, maintains that any program using GOTOs should
>> have the invariant that its flow chart can be drawn with all forward
>> branches on the left, all backward branches on the right, and no branches
>> crossing each other.
>>
>
> 	Good thing I never had him for an instructor... My practice, when last
> flow-charting, favored back-branches on the left.
>
> 	After all, I read left-to-right/top-to-bottom, so forward branches
> going right and down seem natural. Encountering a branch going left sort of
> implies "re-reading" part of the chart; going upwards...
>

Yeah, but I love the naked concept there.  It pretty much encapsulates 
what I find to be the only useful use of GOTO in any reasonable language 
in a simple, easy to visualize way.  If your GOTOs are crossing you've 
done something wrong.

If more people had good mechanisms for visualizing their code I'd use 
far less profanity literally every day of my life.

-- 
Rob Gaddi, Highland Technology -- www.highlandtechnology.com
Email address domain is currently out of order.  See above to fix.


From rgaddi at highlandtechnology.invalid  Fri Apr 14 13:21:33 2017
From: rgaddi at highlandtechnology.invalid (Rob Gaddi)
Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2017 10:21:33 -0700
Subject: Regular Expressions, Speed, Python, and NFA
In-Reply-To: <0e334222-676b-4a7b-91c2-1345592cced5@googlegroups.com>
References: <0e334222-676b-4a7b-91c2-1345592cced5@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <ocr094$3a0$1@dont-email.me>

On 04/14/2017 08:12 AM, Malik Rumi wrote:
> I am running some tests using the site regex101 to figure out the correct regexs to use for a project. I was surprised at how slow it was, constantly needing to increase the timeouts. I went Googling for a reason, and solution, and found Russ Cox?s article from 2007: https://swtch.com/~rsc/regexp/regexp1.html . I couldn?t understand why, if this was even remotely correct, we don?t use NFA in Python, which led me here:
>
> https://groups.google.com/forum/#!msg/comp.lang.python/L1ZFI_R2hAo/C12Nf3patWIJ;context-place=forum/comp.lang.python where all of these issues were addressed. Unfortunately, this is also from 2007.
>
> BTW, John Machin in one of his replies cites Navarro?s paper, but that link is broken. Navarro?s work can now be found at http://citeseer.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.21.3112&rep=rep1&type=pdf But be forewarned, it is 68 pages of dense reading. I am not a computer science major. I am not new to Python, but I don?t think I?m qualified to take on the idea of creating a new NFA module for Python.
>
>> Getting back to the "It would be nice ..." bit: yes, it would be nice
>> to have even more smarts in re, but who's going to do it? It's not a
>> "rainy Sunday afternoon" job :-)
>> Cheers,
>> John
> -
>> Well, just as an idea, there is a portable C library for this at
>> http://laurikari.net/tre/ released under LGPL.  If one is willing to
>> give up PCRE extensions for speed, it might be worth the work to
>> wrap this library using SWIG.
>> Kirk Sluder
>
> (BTW, this link is also old. TRE is now at https://github.com/laurikari/tre/ )
>
> I am not a computer science major. I am not new to Python, but I don?t think I?m qualified to take on the idea of creating a new NFA module for Python.  Nor am I entirely sure I want to try something new (to me) like TRE.
>
> Most threads related to this topic are older than 2007. I did find this https://groups.google.com/forum/#!searchin/comp.lang.python/regex$20speed%7Csort:relevance/comp.lang.python/O7rUwVoD2t0/NYAQM0mUX7sJ from 2011 but I did not do an exhaustive search.
>
> The bottom line is I wanted to know if anything has changed since 2007, and if there is a) any hope for improving regex speeds in Python, or b) some 3rd party module/library that is already out there and solves this problem? Or should I just take this advice?
>
>> The cheap way in terms of programmer time is to pipe out to grep or
>> awk on this one.
>> Kirk Sluder
>
> Thanks.
>

I'll also throw in the obligatory quote from Jamie Zawinsky, "Some 
people, when confronted with a problem, think 'I know, I'll use regular 
expressions.'   Now they have two problems."

It's not that regexes are the wrong tool for any job; I personally use 
them all the time.  But they're, tautologically, the wrong tool for any 
job that can be done better with a different one.  In Python, you've got 
"in", .startswith, .endswith, and .split to handle simple parsing tasks. 
  On the other end, you've got lxml and the like to handle complex tasks 
that provably cannot be done with regexes at all, let alone efficiently.

This leaves them in a fairly bounded middle ground, where is my task so 
complex that it warrants something as difficult to read as a regex, but 
still simple enough to be solved by one.  And that ground is definitely 
occupied.  But not vast.  So is it worth the time to try to write a more 
efficient regex parser for Python?  Yours if you want it to be, but not 
mine.


-- 
Rob Gaddi, Highland Technology -- www.highlandtechnology.com
Email address domain is currently out of order.  See above to fix.


From rurpy at yahoo.com  Fri Apr 14 14:21:50 2017
From: rurpy at yahoo.com (rurpy at yahoo.com)
Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2017 11:21:50 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Python and the need for speed
In-Reply-To: <58f03030$0$1598$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
References: <768f9a44-5d90-4756-8a99-821253a491f8@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.5.1491710256.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <58e9e519$0$1528$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <mailman.9.1491728745.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <58ec9192$0$1602$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <oci97l$10u4$1@gioia.aioe.org>
 <58eceea2$0$1615$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <CAE6NSRD=xU_mNECNBU2w92Br=vgHJJVqSruGFrPB=vrbpkj0Nw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPjBxg_49OD_CNXUAHKjxYsUiLab4s_fCs_Ast3LyymB82zTCA@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.68.1491956914.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <4277c149-e136-4d33-91d5-d011df9149f1@googlegroups.com>
 <58edcdd2$0$1501$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <fdb4a93a-688e-4a3f-bbc3-0df3ee1d2ac7@googlegroups.com>
 <58f03030$0$1598$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
Message-ID: <7117f7a7-0ee7-4e05-84b4-5dc3d9688348@googlegroups.com>

On 04/13/2017 08:13 PM, Steve D'Aprano wrote:
> On Wed, 12 Apr 2017 07:56 pm, bart4858 at gmail.com wrote:
> [...]
>> (** Although I find code full of class definitions, one-liners, decorators
>> and all the other esoterics, incomprehensive. I'm sure I'm not the only
>> one, so perhaps readability isn't too much of a priority either.)
> 
> [...] You sound like an old man who
> complains about this new-fangled "telephone", and how things were so much
> better when we had messenger boys to deliver messages anywhere in the city.

This is the second time in two weeks that I have seen an offensive
stereotype presented in this list.  Last time it was "ugly americans".

For those (who've been living under a rock) that are unaware, the 
stereotype of the "old person" who can't understand or adapt to new 
technology is a very vile one that many believe is in large part 
responsible for the high unemployment rate of over-50's in the US, 
along with their positions near the tops of lay-off lists.  This 
form of bigotry is called "ageism".  

There are plenty of ways to use the english language to make your 
point (that people often prefer that which they're familiar with) 
without employing hateful stereotypes directed at a specific groups
of people.

Given that this is the second time in two weeks, I publicly ask the
list moderators to invoke whatever procedures they use to deal with 
bigotry on this list.


From tjreedy at udel.edu  Fri Apr 14 14:45:29 2017
From: tjreedy at udel.edu (Terry Reedy)
Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2017 14:45:29 -0400
Subject: Hi! i need some help with a program in python on Raspberry pi3.
In-Reply-To: <b4e7ff72-e407-4c2c-a95a-87b02be96b58@googlegroups.com>
References: <b4e7ff72-e407-4c2c-a95a-87b02be96b58@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <ocr5c4$jdk$1@blaine.gmane.org>

On 4/14/2017 10:27 AM, Kasper wrote:
> every time i run the program i get this messeage:
>
> Traceback (most recent call last):
>   File "smartmirror.py", line 159, in get_weather
>     temprature2 = "%S%S" % (str(int(weather_obj['currently']['temperature'])),
> degree_sign)
> KeyError: 'currently'
> Error: 'currently'. Cannot get weather.
>
> How do i fix that?

Use a valid key for weather_obj.  Check doc or add
     print(list(weather_obj.keys()))
before the failing subscription.

> Here is the program:

I second Steve's comment.

-- 
Terry Jan Reedy



From barry at barrys-emacs.org  Fri Apr 14 15:33:59 2017
From: barry at barrys-emacs.org (Barry Scott)
Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2017 20:33:59 +0100
Subject: Python3 C extension how to support dir()
Message-ID: <2199850.VDM6Ou3jKE@varric.chelsea.private>

I have an python3 C++ extension that works.
But dir(obj) does not return the list of member variables.

How should I support dir() from the C API?

I cannot use tp_members, not appropiate to the code I'm writing.
If I provide __dir__ I then hit the problem I need the C API version

	all_attr = super( mytype, obj ).__dir__();
	all_attr.extend( mytype_variable_names );

I'm not getting inspiration from the python 3.6 sources for this problem.
I did find the object_dir function in typeobject.c, but that has not helped
get me forward.

What am I missing?

Barry



From python at deborahswanson.net  Fri Apr 14 15:34:52 2017
From: python at deborahswanson.net (Deborah Swanson)
Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2017 12:34:52 -0700
Subject: Namedtuples: some unexpected inconveniences
In-Reply-To: <ocm8ti$v8c$1@blaine.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <004601d2b556$308b82f0$27b23dae@sambora>

Peter,

Retracing my steps to rewrite the getattr(row, label) code, this is what
sent me down the rabbit hole in the first place. (I changed your 'rows'
to 'records' just to use the same name everywhere, but all else is the
same as you gave me.) I'd like you to look at it and see if you still
think complete(group, label) should work. Perhaps seeing why it fails
will clarify some of the difficulties I'm having.

I ran into problems with values and has_empty. values has a problem
because 
row[label] gets a TypeError. has_empty has a problem because a list of
field values will be shorter with missing values than a full list, but a
namedtuple with missing values will be the same length as a full
namedtuple since missing values have '' placeholders.  Two more
unexpected inconveniences. 

A short test csv is at the end, for you to read in and attempt to
execute the following code, and I'm still working on reconstructing the
lost getattr(row, label) code.

import csv
from collections import namedtuple, defaultdict

def get_title(row):
    return row.title

def complete(group, label):
    values = {row[label] for row in group}  
    # get "TypeError: tuple indices must be integers, not str"
    has_empty = not min(values, key=len)
    if len(values) - has_empty != 1:
        # no value or multiple values; manual intervention needed
        return False
    elif has_empty:
        for row in group:
            row[label] = max(values, key=len)
    return True

infile = open("E:\\Coding projects\\Pycharm\\Moving\\Moving 2017 in -
test.csv")
rows = csv.reader(infile)
fieldnames = next(rows)
Record = namedtuple("Record", fieldnames)
records = [Record._make(fieldnames)]
records.extend(Record._make(row) for row in rows)

# group rows by title
groups = defaultdict(list)
for row in records:
    groups[get_title(row)].append(row)

LABELS = ['Location', 'Kind', 'Notes']

# add missing values
for group in groups.values():
    for label in LABELS:
        complete(group, label)

Moving 2017 in - test.csv:
(If this doesn't come through the mail system correctly, I've also
uploaded the file to
http://deborahswanson.net/python/Moving%202017%20in%20-%20test.csv.
Permissions should be set correctly, but let me know if you run into
problems downloading the file.)


CLDesc,url,title,Description,Location,ST,co,miles,Kind,Rent,Date,first,b
r,Notes,yesno,mark,arc
Jan 3 1 bedroom/1 bath mobile $700 1br - (Mount
Vernon),http://skagit.craigslist.org/apa/5943737902.html,1 bedroom/1
bath mobile $700 1br - (Mount Vernon) - (Mount Vernon),1 bedroom/1 bath
mobile $700 1br,Mount Vernon,WA,sk,,trailer,700,1/3/2017,1/3/2017,1,no
smoking,,,deleted by its author
Jan 6 1 bedroom/1 bath mobile $700 1br - (Mount
Vernon),http://skagit.craigslist.org/apa/5943737902.html,1 bedroom/1
bath mobile $700 1br - (Mount Vernon) - (Mount Vernon),1 bedroom/1 bath
mobile $700 1br,,WA,,,trailer,700,1/6/2017,1/3/2017,1,no smoking,,,
Jan 10 1 bedroom/1 bath mobile $700 1br - (Mount
Vernon),http://skagit.craigslist.org/apa/5943737902.html,1 bedroom/1
bath mobile $700 1br - (Mount Vernon) - (Mount Vernon),1 bedroom/1 bath
mobile $700 1br,,,,,,700,1/10/2017,1/3/2017,1,,,,
Jan 17 1 bedroom/1 bath mobile $700 1br - (Mount
Vernon),http://skagit.craigslist.org/apa/5943737902.html,1 bedroom/1
bath mobile $700 1br - (Mount Vernon) - (Mount Vernon),1 bedroom/1 bath
mobile $700 1br,Mount Vernon,WA,,,trailer,700,1/17/2017,1/3/2017,1,no
smoking,,,
Jan 19 1 bedroom/1 bath mobile $700 1br - (Mount
Vernon),http://skagit.craigslist.org/apa/5943737902.html,1 bedroom/1
bath mobile $700 1br - (Mount Vernon) - (Mount Vernon),1 bedroom/1 bath
mobile $700 1br,Mount Vernon,WA,,,trailer,700,1/19/2017,1/3/2017,1,no
smoking,,,
Jan 26 1240 8th Avenue $725 2br - 676ft2 -
(Longview),http://portland.craigslist.org/clk/apa/5976442500.html,1240
8th Avenue $725 2br - 676ft2 - (Longview),1240 8th Avenue $725 2br -
676ft2,,,,,,725,1/26/2017,1/16/2017,2,,,,
Jan 16 1240 8th Avenue $725 2br - 676ft2 -
(Longview),http://portland.craigslist.org/clk/apa/5961794305.html,1240
8th Avenue $725 2br - 676ft2 - (Longview) - (Longview),1240 8th Avenue
$725 2br -
676ft2,Longview,WA,,,house,725,1/16/2017,1/16/2017,2,"detached garage,
w/d hookups",,,
Jan 6 1424 California Avenue $750 2br - 1113ft2 - (Klamath
Falls),http://klamath.craigslist.org/apa/5947977083.html,1424 California
Avenue $750 2br - 1113ft2 - (Klamath Falls) - (Klamath Falls),1424
California Avenue $750 2br - 1113ft2,Klamath
Falls,OR,kl,,house,750,1/6/2017,1/6/2017,2,no smoking,,,
Jan 11 1424 California Avenue $750 2br - 1113ft2 - (Klamath
Falls),http://klamath.craigslist.org/apa/5947977083.html,1424 California
Avenue $750 2br - 1113ft2 - (Klamath Falls) - (Klamath Falls),1424
California Avenue $750 2br -
1113ft2,,OR,kl,,house,750,1/11/2017,1/6/2017,2,no smoking,,,
"Jan 3 1838 Alma Drive Kelso, WA 98626 $550 1br - 600ft2 - (1838 Alma
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98626 $550 1br - 600ft2",Kelso,WA,ck,,house,550,1/3/2017,12/29/2016,1,no
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"Jan 5 1838 Alma Drive Kelso, WA 98626 $550 1br - 600ft2 - (1838 Alma
Drive Kelso,
WA",http://portland.craigslist.org/clk/apa/5937961608.html,"1838 Alma
Drive Kelso, WA 98626 $550 1br - 600ft2","1838 Alma Drive Kelso, WA
98626 $550 1br - 600ft2",,,,,,550,1/5/2017,12/29/2016,1,,,,
"Jan 9 1838 Alma Drive Kelso, WA 98626 $550 1br - 600ft2 - (1838 Alma
Drive Kelso,
WA)",http://portland.craigslist.org/clk/apa/5937961608.html,"1838 Alma
Drive Kelso, WA 98626 $550 1br - 600ft2","1838 Alma Drive Kelso, WA
98626 $550 1br - 600ft2",,,,house,550,1/9/2017,12/29/2016,1,no
smoking,,,,
"Jan 12 1838 Alma Drive Kelso, WA 98626 $550 1br - 600ft2 - (1838 Alma
Drive Kelso,
WA)",http://portland.craigslist.org/clk/apa/5937961608.html,"1838 Alma
Drive Kelso, WA 98626 $550 1br - 600ft2","1838 Alma Drive Kelso, WA
98626 $550 1br - 600ft2",Kelso,WA,,,house,550,1/12/2017,12/29/2016,1,no
smoking,,,
"Jan 17 1838 Alma Drive Kelso, WA 98626 $550 1br - 600ft2 - (1838 Alma
Drive Kelso, WA) pic
map",http://portland.craigslist.org/clk/apa/5937961608.html,"1838 Alma
Drive Kelso, WA 98626 $550 1br - 600ft2","1838 Alma Drive Kelso, WA
98626 $550 1br - 600ft2",Kelso,WA,,,house,550,1/17/2017,12/29/2016,1,no
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"Jan 19 1838 Alma Drive Kelso, WA 98626 $550 1br - 600ft2 - (1838 Alma
Drive Kelso, WA) pic
map",http://portland.craigslist.org/clk/apa/5937961608.html,"1838 Alma
Drive Kelso, WA 98626 $550 1br - 600ft2","1838 Alma Drive Kelso, WA
98626 $550 1br - 600ft2",,,,house,550,1/19/2017,12/29/2016,1,no
smoking,,,,
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(Shelton),http://seattle.craigslist.org/oly/apa/5916473104.html,1907
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Shelton Home for Rent $750 2br,,,,mfgd,750,1/9/2017,12/5/2016,2,carport
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,http://seattle.craigslist.org/oly/apa/5961587289.html,1907 Olymwy N #22
- Shelton Home for Rent $750 2br,1907 Olymwy N #22 - Shelton Home for
Rent $750 2br,Shelton,WA,ma,,mfgd,750,1/16/2017,12/5/2016,2,carport and
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From marko at pacujo.net  Fri Apr 14 16:10:52 2017
From: marko at pacujo.net (Marko Rauhamaa)
Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2017 23:10:52 +0300
Subject: Goto Considered Harmful [was Re: Python and the need for speed]
References: <768f9a44-5d90-4756-8a99-821253a491f8@googlegroups.com>
 <CAPTjJmrMWpzGd9Lf_sa-mscvqezY01U5kDCPRh07Nuivvxo8yg@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.5.1491710256.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <el01fmF900sU1@mid.individual.net>
 <mailman.69.1491957877.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <58efb8de$0$1618$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <3fbbdbde-107c-4ebb-b608-fd370c0ce72f@googlegroups.com>
 <58f026d9$0$1612$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <elban9Ff1n9U1@mid.individual.net>
 <C++-20170414204052@ram.dialup.fu-berlin.de>
Message-ID: <877f2myckz.fsf@elektro.pacujo.net>

ram at zedat.fu-berlin.de (Stefan Ram):

> struct example
> { PIC<5,X<15>>             last_name; 
>   PIC<88,VALUE<1,3,5,7,9>> odd_numbers; }
>
>   . The above assumes appropriate definitions for ?VALUE? (as a
>   variadic template) ?PIC?, and ?X?. Only a C++ expert would be able
>   to provide these definitions, but then they could be used by average
>   C++ programmers.

I don't like your expert/average dichotomy. Similar dichotomies plague
other frameworks: Eclipse, Jenkins, Maven, Xt, MS Word etc.

If templates are considered a good thing, creating them should be
considered routine for *all* C++ programmers.

>   . C++ has a very expressive user-definable type system including
>   user-definable literals.

I don't like said system. Analogously, I'm not too keen on formal
schemata. Even more generally, I'm not big on *rule languages*, which
are ad-hoc and incomplete. Instead, I prefer *programming languages*,
which are compact and expressive, or even plain English.

>   It should then also be possible to generate compile-time errors for
>   assignments such as
>
> example_instance.odd_numbers = 4;

Every programming language has its big selling points. C++'s gospel is
its utmost compile-time checking. I'm a long time user of C++, but I'm
not a convert to that ideology.

>   . I know too little about Python to tell whether something like this
>   would be possible with Python, too.

Unfortunately, Python is taking baby steps in that direction.


Marko


From __peter__ at web.de  Fri Apr 14 17:16:10 2017
From: __peter__ at web.de (Peter Otten)
Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2017 23:16:10 +0200
Subject: Namedtuples: some unexpected inconveniences
References: <ocm8ti$v8c$1@blaine.gmane.org>
 <004601d2b556$308b82f0$27b23dae@sambora>
Message-ID: <ocre6k$kn5$1@blaine.gmane.org>

Deborah Swanson wrote:

> Peter,
> 
> Retracing my steps to rewrite the getattr(row, label) code, this is what
> sent me down the rabbit hole in the first place. (I changed your 'rows'
> to 'records' just to use the same name everywhere, but all else is the
> same as you gave me.) I'd like you to look at it and see if you still
> think complete(group, label) should work. Perhaps seeing why it fails
> will clarify some of the difficulties I'm having.
> 
> I ran into problems with values and has_empty. values has a problem
> because
> row[label] gets a TypeError. has_empty has a problem because a list of
> field values will be shorter with missing values than a full list, but a
> namedtuple with missing values will be the same length as a full
> namedtuple since missing values have '' placeholders.  Two more
> unexpected inconveniences.
> 
> A short test csv is at the end, for you to read in and attempt to
> execute the following code, and I'm still working on reconstructing the
> lost getattr(row, label) code.
> 
> import csv
> from collections import namedtuple, defaultdict
> 
> def get_title(row):
>     return row.title
> 
> def complete(group, label):
>     values = {row[label] for row in group}
>     # get "TypeError: tuple indices must be integers, not str"

Yes, the function expects row to be dict-like. However when you change 

row[label]

to

getattr(row, label)

this part of the code will work...

>     has_empty = not min(values, key=len)
>     if len(values) - has_empty != 1:
>         # no value or multiple values; manual intervention needed
>         return False
>     elif has_empty:
>         for row in group:
>             row[label] = max(values, key=len)

but here you'll get an error. I made the experiment to change everything 
necessary to make it work with namedtuples, but you'll probably find the 
result a bit hard to follow:

import csv
from collections import namedtuple, defaultdict

INFILE = "E:\\Coding projects\\Pycharm\\Moving\\Moving 2017 in - test.csv"
OUTFILE = "tmp.csv" 

def get_title(row):
    return row.title

def complete(group, label):
    values = {getattr(row, label) for row in group}  
    has_empty = not min(values, key=len)
    if len(values) - has_empty != 1:
        # no value or multiple values; manual intervention needed
        return False
    elif has_empty:
        # replace namedtuples in the group. Yes, it's ugly
        fix = {label: max(values, key=len)}
        group[:] = [record._replace(**fix) for record in group]
    return True

with open(INFILE) as infile:
    rows = csv.reader(infile)
    fieldnames = next(rows)
    Record = namedtuple("Record", fieldnames)
    groups = defaultdict(list)
    for row in rows:
        record = Record._make(row)
        groups[get_title(record)].append(record)

LABELS = ['Location', 'Kind', 'Notes']

# add missing values
for group in groups.values():
    for label in LABELS:
        complete(group, label)

# dump data (as a demo that you do not need the list of all records)
with open(OUTFILE, "w") as outfile:
    writer = csv.writer(outfile)
    writer.writerow(fieldnames)
    writer.writerows(
        record for group in groups.values() for record in group
    )

One alternative is to keep the original and try to replace the namedtuple 
with the class suggested by Gregory Ewing. Then it should suffice to also 
change

>     elif has_empty:
>         for row in group:
>             row[label] = max(values, key=len)

to

>     elif has_empty:
>         for row in group:
              setattr(row, label, max(values, key=len))

PS: Personally I would probably take the opposite direction and use dicts 
throughout...



From python at mrabarnett.plus.com  Fri Apr 14 17:18:30 2017
From: python at mrabarnett.plus.com (MRAB)
Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2017 22:18:30 +0100
Subject: Namedtuples: some unexpected inconveniences
In-Reply-To: <004601d2b556$308b82f0$27b23dae@sambora>
References: <004601d2b556$308b82f0$27b23dae@sambora>
Message-ID: <de004789-d507-52d2-a3aa-e6058f71ef1f@mrabarnett.plus.com>

On 2017-04-14 20:34, Deborah Swanson wrote:
> Peter,
> 
> Retracing my steps to rewrite the getattr(row, label) code, this is what
> sent me down the rabbit hole in the first place. (I changed your 'rows'
> to 'records' just to use the same name everywhere, but all else is the
> same as you gave me.) I'd like you to look at it and see if you still
> think complete(group, label) should work. Perhaps seeing why it fails
> will clarify some of the difficulties I'm having.
> 
> I ran into problems with values and has_empty. values has a problem
> because
> row[label] gets a TypeError. has_empty has a problem because a list of
> field values will be shorter with missing values than a full list, but a
> namedtuple with missing values will be the same length as a full
> namedtuple since missing values have '' placeholders.  Two more
> unexpected inconveniences.
> 
In the line:

     values = {row[label] for row in group}

'group' is a list of records; row is a record (namedtuple).

You can get the members of a namedtuple (also 'normal' tuple) by numeric 
index, e.g. row[0], but the point of a namedtuple is that you can get 
them by name, as an attribute, e.g. row.Location.

As the name of the attribute isn't fixed, but passed by name, use 
getattr(row, label) instead:

     values = {getattr(row, label) for row in group}


As for the values:

     # Remove the missing value, if present.
     values.discard('')

     # There's only 1 value left, so fill in the empty places.
     if len(values) == 1:
         ...


The next point is that namedtuples, like normal tuples, are immutable. 
You can't change the value of an attribute.

> A short test csv is at the end, for you to read in and attempt to
> execute the following code, and I'm still working on reconstructing the
> lost getattr(row, label) code.
> 
> import csv
> from collections import namedtuple, defaultdict
> 
> def get_title(row):
>      return row.title
> 
> def complete(group, label):
>      values = {row[label] for row in group}
>      # get "TypeError: tuple indices must be integers, not str"
>      has_empty = not min(values, key=len)
>      if len(values) - has_empty != 1:
>          # no value or multiple values; manual intervention needed
>          return False
>      elif has_empty:
>          for row in group:
>              row[label] = max(values, key=len)
>      return True
> 
> infile = open("E:\\Coding projects\\Pycharm\\Moving\\Moving 2017 in -
> test.csv")
> rows = csv.reader(infile)
> fieldnames = next(rows)
> Record = namedtuple("Record", fieldnames)
> records = [Record._make(fieldnames)]
> records.extend(Record._make(row) for row in rows)
> 
> # group rows by title
> groups = defaultdict(list)
> for row in records:
>      groups[get_title(row)].append(row)
> 
> LABELS = ['Location', 'Kind', 'Notes']
> 
> # add missing values
> for group in groups.values():
>      for label in LABELS:
>          complete(group, label)
> 
> Moving 2017 in - test.csv:
> (If this doesn't come through the mail system correctly, I've also
> uploaded the file to
> http://deborahswanson.net/python/Moving%202017%20in%20-%20test.csv.
> Permissions should be set correctly, but let me know if you run into
> problems downloading the file.)
> 
[snip]


From no.email at nospam.invalid  Fri Apr 14 18:05:04 2017
From: no.email at nospam.invalid (Paul Rubin)
Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2017 15:05:04 -0700
Subject: Python and the need for speed
References: <768f9a44-5d90-4756-8a99-821253a491f8@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.5.1491710256.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <58e9e519$0$1528$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <mailman.9.1491728745.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <58ec9192$0$1602$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <oci97l$10u4$1@gioia.aioe.org>
 <58eceea2$0$1615$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <CAE6NSRD=xU_mNECNBU2w92Br=vgHJJVqSruGFrPB=vrbpkj0Nw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPjBxg_49OD_CNXUAHKjxYsUiLab4s_fCs_Ast3LyymB82zTCA@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.68.1491956914.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <4277c149-e136-4d33-91d5-d011df9149f1@googlegroups.com>
 <58edcdd2$0$1501$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <fdb4a93a-688e-4a3f-bbc3-0df3ee1d2ac7@googlegroups.com>
 <58f03030$0$1598$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <kI1IA.411503$QG3.288896@fx17.am4>
 <CAPTjJmrPWBXdmVKa7BFDDtYoD-o+xoBuLPyPHH7X1V-1mdP=rA@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.177.1492167369.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <4V2IA.973357$qK5.728302@fx45.am4>
Message-ID: <8760i6hchb.fsf@nightsong.com>

bartc <bc at freeuk.com> writes:
> I do know that if I want to port some program (be it in Python or
> C++), or simply try and understand it, if I see it's full of class
> definitions or whatever, then I won't bother.

There was a time in the evolution of OOP when inheritance was thought of
as a cool and enabling thing for code re-use, and lots of architecture
astronautics involved designing deeply nested and complex inheritance
hierarchies in programs.  These days I think there's more accepted that
inheritance is confusing and obscures the control flow in programs, that
it was often mis-used, and that while there are still legitimate uses
cases for it, it should be used sparingly.  That helps quite a lot.

C++ templates let you write generics that are often cleaner than using
subclasses, though the design of templates can lead to awful code and
notoriously bloated and useless error messages.  The long-awaited
Concepts extension should help some with that.  Again though, like
anything else, templates work best when used tastefully rather than
willy-nilly.


From rantingrickjohnson at gmail.com  Fri Apr 14 19:40:35 2017
From: rantingrickjohnson at gmail.com (Rick Johnson)
Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2017 16:40:35 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Python and the need for speed
In-Reply-To: <58edcdd2$0$1501$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
References: <768f9a44-5d90-4756-8a99-821253a491f8@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.5.1491710256.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <58e9e519$0$1528$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <mailman.9.1491728745.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <58ec9192$0$1602$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <oci97l$10u4$1@gioia.aioe.org>
 <58eceea2$0$1615$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <CAE6NSRD=xU_mNECNBU2w92Br=vgHJJVqSruGFrPB=vrbpkj0Nw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPjBxg_49OD_CNXUAHKjxYsUiLab4s_fCs_Ast3LyymB82zTCA@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.68.1491956914.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <4277c149-e136-4d33-91d5-d011df9149f1@googlegroups.com>
 <58edcdd2$0$1501$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
Message-ID: <95345397-bb7f-46e9-ba4d-c398a2aeae88@googlegroups.com>

On Wednesday, April 12, 2017 at 1:48:57 AM UTC-5, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
> On Tue, 11 Apr 2017 21:10:56 -0700, Rick Johnson wrote:
>
> > high level languages like Python should make it difficult,
> > if not impossible, to write sub- optimal code (at least in
> > the blatantly obvious cases).
>
> You mean that Python should make it impossible to write:
>
>     near_limit = []
>     near_limit.append(1)
>     near_limit = len(near_limit)
>
> instead of:
>
>     near_limit = 1

Yes.

> ? I look forward to seeing your version of RickPython that
> can enforce that rule.  Oh, in case you think I'm making
> this up, this example came from some real-life code:
> [snip: link]

My guess about that obviously superfluous code is that it is
an artifact of an early algorithm, but since the code
executes without error, the programmer forgot about it.
That's my two cents anyways...

> Here's another example:
>
>     answer = 0
>     for i in range(10):
>         answer += 1
>
> instead of
>
>     answer = 10
>
> So... how exactly does the compiler prohibit stupid code?

Easy. The same way _any_ optimizer optimizes code, by
analysing the code! In this example, the integer named
'answer` is simply being incremented in a superfluous loop.
Nothing here is "dynamic". For example:

  * `range(10)` will always produce a list of the _same_ 10
  integers.

  * `for i in range(10)` will aways iterate over the _same_
  10 integers

  * `answer += 1` will always increment the "current integer
  value" by 1

Therefore, since `answer` will always be `10`, the code
should be optimized to `answer = 10`. What's so difficult to
understand here? Hell, if we have to live with the syntactic
burden of type- hints, we should at least be rewarded with
an optimizer.


From rantingrickjohnson at gmail.com  Fri Apr 14 19:59:50 2017
From: rantingrickjohnson at gmail.com (Rick Johnson)
Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2017 16:59:50 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Python and the need for speed
In-Reply-To: <xsmHA.355775$y83.112114@fx30.am4>
References: <768f9a44-5d90-4756-8a99-821253a491f8@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.5.1491710256.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <58e9e519$0$1528$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <mailman.9.1491728745.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <58ec9192$0$1602$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <oci97l$10u4$1@gioia.aioe.org>
 <58eceea2$0$1615$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <423b78ac-3e72-45d3-a7d9-88feeb47a291@googlegroups.com>
 <xsmHA.355775$y83.112114@fx30.am4>
Message-ID: <d62747d2-2cea-4a73-be2e-518b1f5ad1a1@googlegroups.com>

On Wednesday, April 12, 2017 at 4:30:16 AM UTC-5, alister wrote:
> On Tue, 11 Apr 2017 16:31:16 -0700, Rick Johnson wrote:
> > On Tuesday, April 11, 2017 at 9:56:45 AM UTC-5, Steve D'Aprano wrote:
> >> On Tue, 11 Apr 2017 07:56 pm, Brecht Machiels wrote:
> >> > On 2017-04-11 08:19:31 +0000, Steven D'Aprano said:
> > > > I understand that high performance was never a goal in
> > > > CPython development (and Python language design!), but
> > > > recent events (DropBox, Google) might help to reconsider
> > > > that standpoint.
> > > *shrug*  It isn't as if high-performance is a
> > > requirement for all code.
> > But given the choice, no prospective "language shopper"
> > is going to choose the slower language over a faster
> > language -- at least not from a pool of similar languages
> > with similar features (no comparing Python to C, please!).
> > So even if you don't need the speed _today_, you may need
> > it _tomorrow_. And once you've written a few hundred
> > thousand lines of code, well, you're committed to the
> > language you chose yesterday.
>
> but cost is also a factor , not just cost of the tools but
> cost in time writing & debugging he software the write.  if
> they can produce a finished product in half the time with a
> "slower" language the speed may not be important
> (especially when the application is IO bound & spends 90%
> of its time idling anyway).

Yes, and that is why many people have, at least
historically, picked Python for their project. An
interpreted language with a clean syntax and an avoidance of
TIM-TOWTDI results not only in a Rapid Development, but also
less headaches during the maintenance lifetime of the
software. But we cannot _always_ know what the final
destination of our software may be. Many times a simple
project can grow into an enormous beast, and by the time we
realize that Python is too slow, we're faced with only bad
choices and worse choices. 

> if this were not the case then we would all be writing
> Assembler

Only a few, poor, masochistic souls choose to write
assembly, the rest of us try to avoid pain as much as we
can. ;-)


From python at deborahswanson.net  Fri Apr 14 20:03:04 2017
From: python at deborahswanson.net (Deborah Swanson)
Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2017 17:03:04 -0700
Subject: Namedtuples: some unexpected inconveniences
In-Reply-To: <ocre6k$kn5$1@blaine.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <00b001d2b57b$a8ffffc0$27b23dae@sambora>

fix = {label: max(values, key=len)}
group[:] = [record._replace(**fix) for record in group]

Peter Otten wrote, on Friday, April 14, 2017 2:16 PM
> > def complete(group, label):
> >     values = {row[label] for row in group}
> >     # get "TypeError: tuple indices must be integers, not str"
> 
> Yes, the function expects row to be dict-like. However when 
> you change 
> 
> row[label]
> 
> to
> 
> getattr(row, label)
> 
> this part of the code will work...
> 
> >     has_empty = not min(values, key=len)
> >     if len(values) - has_empty != 1:
> >         # no value or multiple values; manual intervention needed
> >         return False
> >     elif has_empty:
> >         for row in group:
> >             row[label] = max(values, key=len)
> 
> but here you'll get an error. I made the experiment to change 
> everything 
> necessary to make it work with namedtuples, but you'll 
> probably find the 
> result a bit hard to follow:
> 
> import csv
> from collections import namedtuple, defaultdict
> 
> INFILE = "E:\\Coding projects\\Pycharm\\Moving\\Moving 2017 
> in - test.csv" OUTFILE = "tmp.csv" 
> 
> def get_title(row):
>     return row.title
> 
> def complete(group, label):
>     values = {getattr(row, label) for row in group}  
>     has_empty = not min(values, key=len)
>     if len(values) - has_empty != 1:
>         # no value or multiple values; manual intervention needed
>         return False
>     elif has_empty:
>         # replace namedtuples in the group. Yes, it's ugly
>         fix = {label: max(values, key=len)}
>         group[:] = [record._replace(**fix) for record in group]
>     return True
> 
> with open(INFILE) as infile:
>     rows = csv.reader(infile)
>     fieldnames = next(rows)
>     Record = namedtuple("Record", fieldnames)
>     groups = defaultdict(list)
>     for row in rows:
>         record = Record._make(row)
>         groups[get_title(record)].append(record)
> 
> LABELS = ['Location', 'Kind', 'Notes']
> 
> # add missing values
> for group in groups.values():
>     for label in LABELS:
>         complete(group, label)
> 
> # dump data (as a demo that you do not need the list of all 
> records) with open(OUTFILE, "w") as outfile:
>     writer = csv.writer(outfile)
>     writer.writerow(fieldnames)
>     writer.writerows(
>         record for group in groups.values() for record in group
>     )
> 
> One alternative is to keep the original and try to replace 
> the namedtuple 
> with the class suggested by Gregory Ewing. Then it should 
> suffice to also 
> change
> 
> >     elif has_empty:
> >         for row in group:
> >             row[label] = max(values, key=len)
> 
> to
> 
> >     elif has_empty:
> >         for row in group:
>               setattr(row, label, max(values, key=len))
> 
> PS: Personally I would probably take the opposite direction 
> and use dicts 
> throughout...

Ok, thank you. I haven't run it on a real input file yet, but this seems
to work with the test file.

Because the earlier incarnation defined 'values' as

values = {row[label] for row in group}

I'd incorrectly guessed what was going on in 

has_empty = not min(values, key=len).

Now that 

values = {getattr(row, label) for row in group}

works properly as you intended it to, I see you get the set of unique
values for that label in that group, which makes the rest of it make
sense.

I know it's your "ugly" answer, but can I ask what the '**' in

fix = {label: max(values, key=len)}
group[:] = [record._replace(**fix) for record in group]

means? 

I haven't seen it before, and I imagine it's one of the possible
'kwargs' in 'somenamedtuple._replace(kwargs)', but I have no idea where
to look up the possible 'kwargs'. (probably short for keyword args) 

Also, I don't see how you get a set for values with the notation you
used. Looks like if anything you've got a comprehension that should give
you a dict. (But I haven't worked a lot with sets either.)

Thanks



From rantingrickjohnson at gmail.com  Fri Apr 14 20:14:22 2017
From: rantingrickjohnson at gmail.com (Rick Johnson)
Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2017 17:14:22 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Python and the need for speed
In-Reply-To: <ocks9s$10uq$1@gioia.aioe.org>
References: <768f9a44-5d90-4756-8a99-821253a491f8@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.5.1491710256.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <58e9e519$0$1528$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <mailman.9.1491728745.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <58ec9192$0$1602$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <oci97l$10u4$1@gioia.aioe.org>
 <58eceea2$0$1615$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <ocks9s$10uq$1@gioia.aioe.org>
Message-ID: <acef67e0-4a2c-4577-92c3-abed8b67c0bf@googlegroups.com>

On Wednesday, April 12, 2017 at 4:34:00 AM UTC-5, Brecht Machiels wrote:
> On 2017-04-11 14:56:33 +0000, Steve D'Aprano said:
> > On Tue, 11 Apr 2017 07:56 pm, Brecht Machiels wrote:
> [...]
> However, we don't really know how Python's performance is
> affecting its popularity. It would be good to have some
> kind of information about user's motivations for choosing
> Python or moving away from it. Have any polls been
> organized in the past to try to find out?

Not to my knowledge. But a very good idea. Because when
Python fails to meet the demands of most users, those users
will not bother to complain, they will simply move quietly
to another langauge that _does_ meet their needs. So, it
would behoove us to anticipate the tends before they become
_the tend_.

Judging Python's popularity by gawking at Python's position
in an internet popularity list is like judging if you have
black paint on the bottom side of your shoe by walking
across white carpet and looking behind you for footprints --
by the time you realize you're leaving tracks, it's too
late!

> I realize that work on CPython (and thus the language
> itself) is done by unpaid volunteers. But I assume that
> they also want the language to thrive, and therefore want
> to cater to the wishes of the userbase at some level.

I would hope so, for, without the large userbase, what would
be the point?

> So perhaps the conclusion to this discussion is that we
> should first try to find out whether performance is an
> issue for a large part of the community (or possible
> newcomers).

+1


From python at deborahswanson.net  Fri Apr 14 20:14:45 2017
From: python at deborahswanson.net (Deborah Swanson)
Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2017 17:14:45 -0700
Subject: Namedtuples: some unexpected inconveniences
In-Reply-To: <de004789-d507-52d2-a3aa-e6058f71ef1f@mrabarnett.plus.com>
Message-ID: <00b601d2b57d$49cdcfd0$27b23dae@sambora>

MRAB wrote, on Friday, April 14, 2017 2:19 PM
> 
> In the line:
> 
>      values = {row[label] for row in group}
> 
> 'group' is a list of records; row is a record (namedtuple).
> 
> You can get the members of a namedtuple (also 'normal' tuple) by
numeric 
> index, e.g. row[0], but the point of a namedtuple is that you can get 
> them by name, as an attribute, e.g. row.Location.
> 
> As the name of the attribute isn't fixed, but passed by name, use 
> getattr(row, label) instead:
> 
>      values = {getattr(row, label) for row in group}
> 
> As for the values:
> 
>      # Remove the missing value, if present.
>      values.discard('')
> 
>      # There's only 1 value left, so fill in the empty places.
>      if len(values) == 1:
>          ...

Thanks for this, but honestly, I'm namedtupled-out at the moment and I
have several other projects I'd like to be working on. But I saved your
suggestion with ones that others have made, so I'll revisit yours again
when I come back for another look at namedtuples.

> The next point is that namedtuples, like normal tuples, are immutable.

> You can't change the value of an attribute.

No you can't, but you can use

somenamedtuple._replace(kwargs) 

to replace the value. Works just as well.



From bc at freeuk.com  Fri Apr 14 20:23:39 2017
From: bc at freeuk.com (bartc)
Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2017 01:23:39 +0100
Subject: Python and the need for speed
In-Reply-To: <95345397-bb7f-46e9-ba4d-c398a2aeae88@googlegroups.com>
References: <768f9a44-5d90-4756-8a99-821253a491f8@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.5.1491710256.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <58e9e519$0$1528$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <mailman.9.1491728745.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <58ec9192$0$1602$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <oci97l$10u4$1@gioia.aioe.org>
 <58eceea2$0$1615$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <CAE6NSRD=xU_mNECNBU2w92Br=vgHJJVqSruGFrPB=vrbpkj0Nw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPjBxg_49OD_CNXUAHKjxYsUiLab4s_fCs_Ast3LyymB82zTCA@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.68.1491956914.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <4277c149-e136-4d33-91d5-d011df9149f1@googlegroups.com>
 <58edcdd2$0$1501$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <95345397-bb7f-46e9-ba4d-c398a2aeae88@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <gKdIA.462700$FF4.238652@fx27.am4>

On 15/04/2017 00:40, Rick Johnson wrote:
> On Wednesday, April 12, 2017 at 1:48:57 AM UTC-5, Steven D'Aprano wrote:

>>     answer = 0
>>     for i in range(10):
>>         answer += 1
>>
>> instead of
>>
>>     answer = 10
>>
>> So... how exactly does the compiler prohibit stupid code?
>
> Easy. The same way _any_ optimizer optimizes code, by
> analysing the code!

In Python, the optimising would need to be done every time you run from 
source. You can't spend too long at it. (I don't know how much it relies 
on caching pre-compiled byte-code.)

  In this example, the integer named
> 'answer` is simply being incremented in a superfluous loop.
> Nothing here is "dynamic".

In Python, nearly everything is.

  For example:
>
>   * `range(10)` will always produce a list of the _same_ 10
>   integers.

You don't know if 'range' is still a range. If this has been executed 
first, then the answer will be 20:

oldrange=range
def double(x): return oldrange(x*2)
range=double

>   * `for i in range(10)` will aways iterate over the _same_
>   10 integers

And range could be set to something else each time the loop is executed.


>   * `answer += 1` will always increment the "current integer
>   value" by 1

I don't know if it's possible to override __iadd__ for integers so that 
+=1 does something different here.

But if there is any code between answer=0 and the start of the loop, 
then there is the possibility that answer could be something different.

-- 
bartc


From python at deborahswanson.net  Fri Apr 14 20:24:58 2017
From: python at deborahswanson.net (Deborah Swanson)
Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2017 17:24:58 -0700
Subject: Namedtuples: some unexpected inconveniences
In-Reply-To: <el8muoFu2l5U1@mid.individual.net>
Message-ID: <00b701d2b57e$b75df2e0$27b23dae@sambora>

Gregory Ewing wrote, on Thursday, April 13, 2017 12:17 AM
> 
> Deborah Swanson wrote:
> > But I think you got it right in your last sentence below.
defaultdict 
> > copied them because they were immutable,
> 
> No, definitely not. A defaultdict will never take it upon 
> itself to copy an object you give it, either as a key or a value.
> 
> The copying, if any, must have occurred somewhere else, in
> code that you didn't show us.
> 
> Can you show us the actual code you used to attempt to
> update the namedtuples?
> 
> -- 
> Greg

I think you've heard my sob story of how the actual code was lost
(PyCharm ate it).

I've made some attempts to recover that code, but honestly, at this
point Peter Otten has showed my enough examples of getattr() that work
with namedtuples with variable names, that I'd rather just accept that
probably some tranformation of the structure I did caused the copying of
values only. I remember looking at it in the debugger, but that code was
convoluted and I don't think it's worth teasing out exactly what went
wrong. (or figuring out how I did it in the first place)

Deborah



From greg.ewing at canterbury.ac.nz  Fri Apr 14 21:02:21 2017
From: greg.ewing at canterbury.ac.nz (Gregory Ewing)
Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2017 13:02:21 +1200
Subject: Namedtuples: some unexpected inconveniences
In-Reply-To: <mailman.192.1492204582.2951.python-list@python.org>
References: <ocm8ti$v8c$1@blaine.gmane.org>
 <004601d2b556$308b82f0$27b23dae@sambora> <ocre6k$kn5$1@blaine.gmane.org>
 <mailman.192.1492204582.2951.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <eld9ovFr4sfU1@mid.individual.net>

Peter Otten wrote:

> PS: Personally I would probably take the opposite direction and use dicts 
> throughout...

Yes, my suggestion to used namedtuples in the first place was
based on the assumption that you would mostly be referring to
fields using fixed names. If that's not true, then using
namedtuples (or a mutable equivalent) might just be making
things harder.

If the names are sometimes fixed and sometimes not, then
you have a tradeoff to make.

In the code you posted most recently, the only fixed field
reference seems to be row.title, and that only appears once.
So as long as that's all you want to do with the rows,
storing them as dicts would appear to be a clear winner.

-- 
Greg


From python at deborahswanson.net  Fri Apr 14 21:37:13 2017
From: python at deborahswanson.net (Deborah Swanson)
Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2017 18:37:13 -0700
Subject: Namedtuples: some unexpected inconveniences
In-Reply-To: <ocp4u2$glt$1@blaine.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <00ba01d2b588$cee48c30$27b23dae@sambora>

Roel Schroeven wrote, on Thursday, April 13, 2017 5:26 PM
> 
> Gregory Ewing schreef op 13/04/2017 9:34:
> > Deborah Swanson wrote:
> >> Peter Otten wrote, on Wednesday, April 12, 2017 1:45 PM
> >>
> >>> Personally I would immediately discard the header row 
> once and for 
> >>> all, not again and again on every operation.
> >> Well, perhaps, but I need the header row to stay in place to write 
> >> the list to a csv when I'm done
> > 
> > That's no problem, just write the header row separately.
> > 
> > Do this at the beginning:
> > 
> >    header = [Record._make(fieldnames)]
> >    records = [Record._make(row) for row in rows]
> > 
> > and then to write out the file:
> > 
> >    writer = csv.writer(outputfile)
> >    writer.writerow(header)
> >    writer.writerows(records)
> 
> I don't even think there's any need to store the field names anywhere 
> else than in fieldnames. So unless I'm missing something, 
> just do this 
> at the beginning:
> 
>      fieldnames = next(rows)
>      Record = namedtuple("Record", fieldnames)
>      records = [Record._make(row) for row in rows]
> 
> and this at the end:
> 
>      writer = csv.writer(outputfile)
>      writer.writerow(fieldnames) # or writer.writerow(Record._fields)
>      writer.writerows(records)
> 
> 
> -- 
> The saddest aspect of life right now is that science gathers 
> knowledge faster than society gathers wisdom.
>    -- Isaac Asimov
> 
> Roel Schroeven

This is essentially what Peter Otten most recently recommended. I know
you got there first, but it is better to only get the header row to name
the fields as you and Greg Ewing suggested, and then use just the
records in processing the field data, using the field names only for the
output.

Thanks,
Deborah



From greg.ewing at canterbury.ac.nz  Fri Apr 14 21:39:05 2017
From: greg.ewing at canterbury.ac.nz (Gregory Ewing)
Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2017 13:39:05 +1200
Subject: Goto Considered Harmful [was Re: Python and the need for speed]
In-Reply-To: <mailman.184.1492181721.2951.python-list@python.org>
References: <mailman.18.1491827120.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <a7ded978-42fe-43f3-ad75-c94e13f67dad@googlegroups.com>
 <CAE6NSRCWPpWpUJYS2RmeU4aN9Qb8fnV=TvY+50JyLA5cC2Yezw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPjBxg-pR0xO-doK6zo9mTnUgh-=PMbVmKp7odvuSFtcLqimtw@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.69.1491957877.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <58efb8de$0$1618$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <3fbbdbde-107c-4ebb-b608-fd370c0ce72f@googlegroups.com>
 <58f026d9$0$1612$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <37o1fch1fueo74r021feurp11b0jpvmt1e@4ax.com>
 <mailman.184.1492181721.2951.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <eldbtrFrg0mU1@mid.individual.net>

Dennis Lee Bieber wrote:
> 	And since the original COBOL standard numeric format was BCD, PIC not
> only defined output layout, but also internal storage needed by numerics
> and string data types.

Unless you said USAGE IS COMPUTATIONAL, which left the compiler
free to pick a more efficient storage format internally.

BTW, one thing I think COBOL did right was not limiting you
to some arbitrary compiler or language defined maximum size
for numbers. You could declare something as PIC 9(100) and
do arithmetic on 100-digit numbers if you wanted. (At least
potentially -- not sure if all compilers would really
support something that big.)

-- 
Greg


From rantingrickjohnson at gmail.com  Fri Apr 14 21:55:47 2017
From: rantingrickjohnson at gmail.com (Rick Johnson)
Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2017 18:55:47 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Python and the need for speed
In-Reply-To: <fdb4a93a-688e-4a3f-bbc3-0df3ee1d2ac7@googlegroups.com>
References: <768f9a44-5d90-4756-8a99-821253a491f8@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.5.1491710256.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <58e9e519$0$1528$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <mailman.9.1491728745.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <58ec9192$0$1602$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <oci97l$10u4$1@gioia.aioe.org>
 <58eceea2$0$1615$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <CAE6NSRD=xU_mNECNBU2w92Br=vgHJJVqSruGFrPB=vrbpkj0Nw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPjBxg_49OD_CNXUAHKjxYsUiLab4s_fCs_Ast3LyymB82zTCA@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.68.1491956914.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <4277c149-e136-4d33-91d5-d011df9149f1@googlegroups.com>
 <58edcdd2$0$1501$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <fdb4a93a-688e-4a3f-bbc3-0df3ee1d2ac7@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <b003e7c4-4bc4-4478-b793-5f43a4360b55@googlegroups.com>

On Wednesday, April 12, 2017 at 4:57:10 AM UTC-5, bart... at gmail.com wrote:
> On Wednesday, 12 April 2017 07:48:57 UTC+1, Steven D'Aprano  wrote:
> > On Tue, 11 Apr 2017 21:10:56 -0700, Rick Johnson wrote:
> > >
> > > high level languages like Python should make it
> > > difficult, if not impossible, to write sub- optimal code
> > > (at least in the blatantly obvious cases).
> >
> > Here's another example:
> >
> >     answer = 0
> >     for i in range(10):
> >         answer += 1
> >
> > instead of
> >
> >     answer = 10
> >
> > So... how exactly does the compiler prohibit stupid code?
>
> Actually, an optimising C compiler (not one of mine!)
> probably could reduce that to answer=10. And eliminate even
> that if 'answer' was never used.
>
> But that's not really the issue here. Assume that such a
> loop /is/ doing something more useful. The problems with
> Python (last time I looked anyway) were these:
>
> (1) If answer was a global variable, then it needs a symbol
> table lookup to find out what it is. That would not happen
> in a static language, or a less dynamic one, as you already
> have the address.

Indeed. I have argued for syntax that will resolve variable
scope many times. but apparently, the py-devs believe we
only deserve type declarations that do _nothing_ to speed up
code execution (aka: type-hints), instead of type
declarations that could actually speed up the code. Go
figure!

I'm not a fan of forced static typing, but i am a fan of
optional static typing.

The global keyword is one idiosyncrasy of Python that causes
a lot of confusion , especially to noobs, but also from a
standpoint of "general intuitiviness" for old hats. This
keyword does not define "true globals" (aka: a symbol that
can be accessed or reassigned from anywhere), no, but
rather, a symbol that is global only with respect to the
"current module scope" (aka: module level variable). You can
only get "true globals" in Python by going rogue and
injecting symbols into sys.modules like some mad scientist
-- which is not officially supported. Go figure! ;-)

> And this [global] lookup happens for every loop iteration.

I sure hope not. I have not taken the time to inspect the
inner workings of Python, but if the lookup happens every
time, that would be an awfully inefficient design.

> (2) There is also 'range', which could have been redefined
> to mean something else, so /that/ needs a lookup. The byte-
> code compiler can't just assume this loop is to be executed
> 10 times.

Yep, and more evidence that Python has taken dynamics to
such a fundamentalist extreme, that even ISIS is jealous!

    # START INTERACTIVE SESSION  (Py2.x) ##
    >>> def range(*args):
    ...     return "Death to static infidels!"

    >>> for i in range(10):
    ...     print i

    D
    e
    a
    t
    h

    t
    o

    s
    t
    a
    t
    i
    c

    i
    n
    f
    i
    d
    e
    l
    s
    !

    ## END INTERACTIVE SESSION ##

> (3) This was fixed long ago but at one time, even when
> 'range' had been established to be a range, it involved
> constructing a list of items (10 here, but it could be a
> million), and then iterating over the list.

First, it was "range", then "xrange", and now, "range"
again. Third time's a charm i suppose. The last iteration of
the range function design removed the underlying
inefficiency, however, it created a semantical nightmare
(more on this below).

> This might seem crazy, but it might have been exceptable
> for a script language at one time. Not for a general
> purpose one however.

Yeah, this is one of those screw-ups that even GvR's famous
time machine could not fix. Must have been in the shop for a
tune-up...

> (4) Python's integer types being immutable, the +=
> operation means evaluating the result, then creating a new
> integer object and binding 'a' to that new value. (Correct
> me if I'm wrong.)
>
> These are all things the language could point a finger at
> before blaming the user for writing inefficient code.
>
> The problem is also the language encouraging people to use
> high-level but inefficient methods, as the emphasis is on
> productivity and readability** rather than performance. In
> fact most users probably have no idea on what is efficient
> and what isn't.

And that's the point i was trying to make earlier. Most
Python programmers are not CS majors, they are just
"technical folk" who need to write a logic program to do
this or that task. We shouldn't expect them to know about
things like memory management, neither should we
expect/burden them to know that calling range(1000000), just
to do one million iterations, is inefficient. Instead, we
should provide them with the proper "efficient tools" to get
the job done. So instead of:

    for x in range(1000000): # Legacy python was slow here!
        doSomething(x)

    It should have _always_ been...

    1000000.times:
        doSomething()

    or, if you need a counter:

    1000000.times as x:
        doSomething(x)

Or something similar. The exact syntax is irrelevant.
However, preventing the Python programmer from writing
inefficient code is the key. But, equally important, is
making a clear distinction between "building a list of
integers" and "looping N times". The current implementation
of range() is creating a semantical nightmare. "EXPLICIT IS
BETTER THAN IMPLICIT!" -- i know i heard that somewhere...

> If I wanted to work with the code for character 'A' (ie.
> the integer 65), in another language it might represent it
> as 'A' which is mapped to 65. In Python, 'A' is a string.
> To get the integer code, I have to use ord('A'). To do
> that, it has to look up 'ord', than execute a function
> call... In the meantime the more static language has long
> since finished whatever it was going to do with that code.

I don't see a problem here. Those other languages that
return ASCII values of string chars really piss me off. Ruby
comes to mind:

    ## START INTERACTIVE SESSION (Ruby 1.8.6) ##
    >>> sl = "Hello from Ruby"
    >>> sl[0]
    72
    ## END INTERACTIVE SESSION (Ruby 1.8.6) ##

When indexing a string, 99% of the time, a string is what i
want in return, not an integer. But maybe i'm the
exception???

> (** Although I find code full of class definitions, one-
> liners, decorators and all the other esoterics,
> incomprehensive. I'm sure I'm not the only one, so perhaps
> readability isn't too much of a priority either.)

Agreed on the decorators, and, in Python at least, i much
prefer a named function over the less readable comprehension
-- unless the comprehension is limited to one level. For
example:

    Good: [i+1 for i in range(10)]

    Bad: [(i+1, j) for i in range(10) for j in range(10) if j < 2]

Because "READABILITY COUNTS!". And long, syntactically
complex lines are just not readable.

As for classes, being that i have a solid background in
Java, classes don't bother me one bit. Actually, I find
their "syntactical scoping" to be quite natural and pleasing
to my eye. Which shouldn't be surprising when you consider
one of my pet peeves is namespace pollution. Especially
module- level namespace pollution.



From rantingrickjohnson at gmail.com  Fri Apr 14 22:35:30 2017
From: rantingrickjohnson at gmail.com (Rick Johnson)
Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2017 19:35:30 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Python and the need for speed
In-Reply-To: <1d352948-9029-4b86-b2f1-2b52608109ea@googlegroups.com>
References: <768f9a44-5d90-4756-8a99-821253a491f8@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.5.1491710256.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <58e9e519$0$1528$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <mailman.9.1491728745.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <58ec9192$0$1602$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <oci97l$10u4$1@gioia.aioe.org>
 <58eceea2$0$1615$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <CAE6NSRD=xU_mNECNBU2w92Br=vgHJJVqSruGFrPB=vrbpkj0Nw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPjBxg_49OD_CNXUAHKjxYsUiLab4s_fCs_Ast3LyymB82zTCA@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.68.1491956914.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <4277c149-e136-4d33-91d5-d011df9149f1@googlegroups.com>
 <58edcdd2$0$1501$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <fdb4a93a-688e-4a3f-bbc3-0df3ee1d2ac7@googlegroups.com>
 <54f1685d-1d2d-44b5-869e-a510569ba9d1@googlegroups.com>
 <lf5a87ln8k9.fsf@ling.helsinki.fi>
 <1d352948-9029-4b86-b2f1-2b52608109ea@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <616ebaec-f140-491c-897e-f2c4b8368d28@googlegroups.com>

On Wednesday, April 12, 2017 at 8:44:30 AM UTC-5, bart... at gmail.com wrote:
> On Wednesday, 12 April 2017 12:56:32 UTC+1, Jussi Piitulainen  wrote:
> > bartc writes:
> > >
> > > These are straightforward language enhancements.
> >
> > FYI, the question is not how to optimize the code but how
> > to prevent the programmer from writing stupid code in the
> > first place. Someone suggested that a language should do
> > that.
> The 'stupid code' thing is a red herring. I assume the
> code people write is there for a reason.

Yeah, but you have to admit, sometimes there is no obvious
good reason -- as Steven's example code has proven. ;-)
Although, i'm convinved that any one of us could find
examples like that in our own repos. And if you cannot find
code that makes you feel embarassed, then you're not
evolving anymore.

> But the language can also play a part in not allowing
> certain things to be expressed naturally.

Exactly!

> So the for-loop in the example has to have a control-
> variable even if it's not referenced.

Yes, one of the design flaws of Python's "for loop" is that
the control variable is injected whether you need it or not
(Nightmarish images of petulant children being force-fed
castor oil comes to mind...). In fact, in Python, there are
only two loop forms avialable -- the "for" and the "while".
-- however, many other languages have relized that these two
forms are insufficent to cover the various types of loops
that are needed. At a minimum, every language should offer
the following four loop-forms (using Python semantics):

    while CONDITION:
        doSomething()

    for VALUE in COLLECTION:
        doSomething(value)

    loop(N):
        doSomething()

    loop(N) as i:
       doSomething(i)



From rantingrickjohnson at gmail.com  Fri Apr 14 22:55:40 2017
From: rantingrickjohnson at gmail.com (Rick Johnson)
Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2017 19:55:40 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Python and the need for speed
In-Reply-To: <58ef1b75$0$1501$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
References: <768f9a44-5d90-4756-8a99-821253a491f8@googlegroups.com>
 <CAPTjJmrMWpzGd9Lf_sa-mscvqezY01U5kDCPRh07Nuivvxo8yg@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.5.1491710256.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <58e9e519$0$1528$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <CAPTjJmq4bCoXWryo5Jahh4he1_GP5LGjyKtJ1Mxs_XkNggi-6w@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.9.1491728745.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <58ec9192$0$1602$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <87a87mn8rc.fsf@nightsong.com>
 <58ed8c02$0$1620$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <878tn5zqxf.fsf@bsb.me.uk>
 <58ef1b75$0$1501$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
Message-ID: <72107d81-48bc-47e9-a1f7-358967edce37@googlegroups.com>

On Thursday, April 13, 2017 at 1:32:28 AM UTC-5, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
> On Wed, 12 Apr 2017 14:38:52 +0100, Ben Bacarisse wrote:
> > Steve D'Aprano writes:
> >> On Wed, 12 Apr 2017 03:39 am, Paul Rubin wrote:
>
> [...] Indeed, and this is a very common phenomenon:
> features which "ordinary" programmers imagine are "trendy"
> and new end up having their roots in some functional
> language dating back to the 1980s, or 70s, or in extreme
> cases the 1950s and Lisp.

Be advised that functional programmers are a fanatical
bunch, and saying something like that could be akin to
blowing a "functional purist dogwhistle". If this thread
becomes overrun with functional trolls, i'm blaming you. ;-)


From rantingrickjohnson at gmail.com  Fri Apr 14 22:57:48 2017
From: rantingrickjohnson at gmail.com (Rick Johnson)
Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2017 19:57:48 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Python and the need for speed
In-Reply-To: <el8kbjFtjq5U1@mid.individual.net>
References: <768f9a44-5d90-4756-8a99-821253a491f8@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.5.1491710256.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <58e9e519$0$1528$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <mailman.9.1491728745.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <58ec9192$0$1602$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <oci97l$10u4$1@gioia.aioe.org>
 <58eceea2$0$1615$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <CAE6NSRD=xU_mNECNBU2w92Br=vgHJJVqSruGFrPB=vrbpkj0Nw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPjBxg_49OD_CNXUAHKjxYsUiLab4s_fCs_Ast3LyymB82zTCA@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.68.1491956914.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <4277c149-e136-4d33-91d5-d011df9149f1@googlegroups.com>
 <58edcdd2$0$1501$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <fdb4a93a-688e-4a3f-bbc3-0df3ee1d2ac7@googlegroups.com>
 <54f1685d-1d2d-44b5-869e-a510569ba9d1@googlegroups.com>
 <lf5a87ln8k9.fsf@ling.helsinki.fi>
 <1d352948-9029-4b86-b2f1-2b52608109ea@googlegroups.com>
 <lf5bms1lj6o.fsf@ling.helsinki.fi>
 <9506d7a6-cdd8-4285-8c2d-4c71b48be5da@googlegroups.com>
 <lf51ssw28au.fsf@ling.helsinki.fi>
 <el8kbjFtjq5U1@mid.individual.net>
Message-ID: <1ca35d13-9223-4174-a14f-4050ebef6f32@googlegroups.com>

On Thursday, April 13, 2017 at 1:32:29 AM UTC-5, Gregory Ewing wrote:
> Jussi Piitulainen wrote:
> > Traceback (most recent call last):
> >   File "/dev/fd/63", line 37, in <module>
> > SanityClauseException: code is blatantly sub-optimal
> > 
> > As far as I know, no language does that. Because reasons?
> 
> Because the problem of making a compiler do that is
> probably AI-complete!

What? GvR's time machine only goes backwards?



From rantingrickjohnson at gmail.com  Sat Apr 15 00:56:56 2017
From: rantingrickjohnson at gmail.com (Rick Johnson)
Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2017 21:56:56 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Swiss Ephemeris
In-Reply-To: <d9475212-aeec-448e-a5e2-35a7bbc85b94@googlegroups.com>
References: <fa6a4548-68aa-49e1-8205-532f5c58eff7@googlegroups.com>
 <00dd01d2b319$eb9c77a0$27b23dae@sambora>
 <mailman.136.1492072806.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <d9475212-aeec-448e-a5e2-35a7bbc85b94@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <db7450d4-6c2d-452a-9ceb-1398e411d910@googlegroups.com>

On Thursday, April 13, 2017 at 7:39:38 AM UTC-5, Rustom Mody wrote:
> Quote from Peter Landin, one of the precursors of modern
> functional programming:  Most papers in computer science
> describe how their author learned what someone else already
> knew  [And this dates from 60s/70s]  Applies beyond just
> CS?

There are very few truely orignal ideas. Most of what we
say, do and know are derivative works. For example; the
kernel of Python was formed in the mind of Guido from his
observations of another language called "ABC" -- he saw many
good ideas in ABC, but also, many design flaws (kinda coming
full circle now, eh?). The key to success in evolution is to
propagate the good traits whilst discarding the bad ones.
And like most other languages, Python is simply an evolution
of many likable traits with a few new features sprinkled on
top to "sweeten the pot".

Much is the same in any field of study. There are countless
examples of theorists and experimentors who knew the answers
long before the "named discoverer" was given credit for the
supposed discovery. In the reams of the historical record,
many times, good communication skills and friends in
academic/political circles can be the difference between a
Nobel laureate and a nobody.


From jobmattcon at gmail.com  Sat Apr 15 03:03:06 2017
From: jobmattcon at gmail.com (Ho Yeung Lee)
Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2017 00:03:06 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: 'module' object has no attribute 'wrap_socket' when use ssl
Message-ID: <ef05d875-2271-4cd2-8366-bb2326dab9ed@googlegroups.com>

Python 2.7.6 (default, Jun 22 2015, 18:00:18) 
[GCC 4.8.2] on linux2
Type "help", "copyright", "credits" or "license" for more information.
>>> import ssl
Traceback (most recent call last):
  File "<stdin>", line 1, in <module>
  File "/home/martin/Documents/ssl.py", line 13, in <module>
    SSLError -- exception raised for I/O errors
AttributeError: 'module' object has no attribute 'wrap_socket'


From __peter__ at web.de  Sat Apr 15 03:18:32 2017
From: __peter__ at web.de (Peter Otten)
Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2017 09:18:32 +0200
Subject: 'module' object has no attribute 'wrap_socket' when use ssl
References: <ef05d875-2271-4cd2-8366-bb2326dab9ed@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <ocshg5$ikd$1@blaine.gmane.org>

Ho Yeung Lee wrote:

> Python 2.7.6 (default, Jun 22 2015, 18:00:18)
> [GCC 4.8.2] on linux2
> Type "help", "copyright", "credits" or "license" for more information.
>>>> import ssl
> Traceback (most recent call last):
>   File "<stdin>", line 1, in <module>
>   File "/home/martin/Documents/ssl.py", line 13, in <module>
>     SSLError -- exception raised for I/O errors
> AttributeError: 'module' object has no attribute 'wrap_socket'

Look at the traceback again -- the ssl.py you are importing is not the one 
from the standard library, it's an arbitrary module, perhaps written by 
"martin". Once you rename Martin's ssl.py to something else and also remove 
the corresponding ssl.pyc you will be able to work with the desired ssl.py 
from the stdlib.



From __peter__ at web.de  Sat Apr 15 03:43:49 2017
From: __peter__ at web.de (Peter Otten)
Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2017 09:43:49 +0200
Subject: Namedtuples: some unexpected inconveniences
References: <ocre6k$kn5$1@blaine.gmane.org>
 <00b001d2b57b$a8ffffc0$27b23dae@sambora>
Message-ID: <ocsivh$6kc$1@blaine.gmane.org>

Deborah Swanson wrote:

> I know it's your "ugly" answer, but can I ask what the '**' in
> 
> fix = {label: max(values, key=len)}
> group[:] = [record._replace(**fix) for record in group]
> 
> means? 

d = {"a": 1, "b": 2}
f(**d)

is equivalent to

f(a=1, b=2)

so ** is a means to call a function with keyword arguments when you want to 
decide about the *names* at runtime. Example:

>>> def f(a=1, b=2):
...     print("a =", a)
...     print("b =", b)
...     print()
... 
>>> for d in [{"a": 10}, {"b": 42}, {"a": 100, "b": 200}]:
...     f(**d)
... 
a = 10
b = 2

a = 1
b = 42

a = 100
b = 200

Starting from a namedtuple `record`

record._replace(Location="elswhere")

creates a new namedtuple with the Location attribute changed to "elsewhere", 
and the slice [:] on the left causes all items in the `groups` list to be 
replaced with new namedtuples,

group[:] = [record._replace(Location="elsewhere") for record in group]

is basically the same as

tmp = group.copy()
group.clear()
for record in tmp:
    group.append(record_replace(Location="elsewhere"))

To support not just Location, but also Kind and Notes we need the double 
asterisk.



From jobmattcon at gmail.com  Sat Apr 15 04:41:53 2017
From: jobmattcon at gmail.com (Ho Yeung Lee)
Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2017 01:41:53 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: 'module' object has no attribute 'wrap_socket' when use ssl
In-Reply-To: <mailman.198.1492240725.2951.python-list@python.org>
References: <ef05d875-2271-4cd2-8366-bb2326dab9ed@googlegroups.com>
 <ocshg5$ikd$1@blaine.gmane.org>
 <mailman.198.1492240725.2951.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <e40c1560-2ef5-48bd-8b78-59c98f6c84b5@googlegroups.com>

On Saturday, April 15, 2017 at 3:18:58 PM UTC+8, Peter Otten wrote:
> Ho Yeung Lee wrote:
> 
> > Python 2.7.6 (default, Jun 22 2015, 18:00:18)
> > [GCC 4.8.2] on linux2
> > Type "help", "copyright", "credits" or "license" for more information.
> >>>> import ssl
> > Traceback (most recent call last):
> >   File "<stdin>", line 1, in <module>
> >   File "/home/martin/Documents/ssl.py", line 13, in <module>
> >     SSLError -- exception raised for I/O errors
> > AttributeError: 'module' object has no attribute 'wrap_socket'
> 
> Look at the traceback again -- the ssl.py you are importing is not the one 
> from the standard library, it's an arbitrary module, perhaps written by 
> "martin". Once you rename Martin's ssl.py to something else and also remove 
> the corresponding ssl.pyc you will be able to work with the desired ssl.py 
> from the stdlib.


thanks , it can run now,

but how to create a SSL server for testing it?
when I use google as server, it failed handshake

python crackssl.py
Traceback (most recent call last):
  File "crackssl.py", line 16, in <module>
    wrappedSocket.connect((HOST, PORT))
  File "/usr/lib/python2.7/ssl.py", line 433, in connect
    self._real_connect(addr, False)
  File "/usr/lib/python2.7/ssl.py", line 420, in _real_connect
    socket.connect(self, addr)
  File "/usr/lib/python2.7/socket.py", line 224, in meth
    return getattr(self._sock,name)(*args)
socket.error: [Errno 111] Connection refused
martin at ubuntu:~/Documents$ python crackssl.py
Traceback (most recent call last):
  File "crackssl.py", line 16, in <module>
    wrappedSocket.connect((HOST, PORT))
  File "/usr/lib/python2.7/ssl.py", line 433, in connect
    self._real_connect(addr, False)
  File "/usr/lib/python2.7/ssl.py", line 423, in _real_connect
    self.do_handshake()
  File "/usr/lib/python2.7/ssl.py", line 405, in do_handshake
    self._sslobj.do_handshake()
ssl.SSLError: [Errno 1] _ssl.c:510: error:14094410:SSL routines:SSL3_READ_BYTES:sslv3 alert handshake failure


import socket
import ssl

# SET VARIABLES
packet, reply = "<packet>SOME_DATA</packet>", ""
HOST, PORT = 'www.google.com.hk', 443

# CREATE SOCKET
sock = socket.socket(socket.AF_INET, socket.SOCK_STREAM)
sock.settimeout(10)

# WRAP SOCKET
wrappedSocket = ssl.wrap_socket(sock, ssl_version=ssl.PROTOCOL_TLSv1, ciphers="ADH-AES256-SHA")

# CONNECT AND PRINT REPLY
wrappedSocket.connect((HOST, PORT))
wrappedSocket.send(packet)
print wrappedSocket.recv(1280)

# CLOSE SOCKET CONNECTION
wrappedSocket.close()


From tflchkl at gmail.com  Sat Apr 15 07:31:27 2017
From: tflchkl at gmail.com (tflchkl at gmail.com)
Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2017 04:31:27 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: TIC TAE TOE's problem(i am beginner)
Message-ID: <1f99a232-568a-4228-9661-7241e408d468@googlegroups.com>

A=['1', ' ', '1']
B=['1', ' ', '2']
C=['1', ' ', '3']
D=['2', ' ', '1']
E=['2', ' ', '2']
F=['2', ' ', '3']
G=['3', ' ', '1']
H=['3', ' ', '2']
I=['3', ' ', '3']
N=int(9)
def my_func1():
    X=list(input())
    global N
    N=N-1
    if X==['1', ' ', '1']:
        A="X"
        my_func3()
        my_func2()
    if X==['1', ' ', '2']:
        B="X"
        
        my_func3()
        my_func2()       
    if X==['1', ' ', '3']:
        C="X"
        
        my_func3()
        my_func2()    
    if X==['2', ' ', '1']:
        D='X'
        
        my_func3()
        my_func2()   
    if X==['2', ' ', '2']:
        E="X"
        my_func3()
        my_func2()
    if X==['2', ' ', '3']:
        F='X'
        
        my_func3()
        my_func2()

    if X==['3', ' ', '1']:
        G='X'
        
        my_func3()
        my_func2()
    if X==['3', ' ', '2']:
        H='X'
        
        my_func3()
        my_func2()
    if X==['3', ' ', '3']:
        I='X'
        
        my_func3()
        my_func2()
def my_func2():
    Y=list(input())
    global N
    N=N-1
    if Y==['1', ' ', '1']:
        A="O"
        
        my_func3()
        my_func1()
    if Y==['1', ' ', '2']:
        B="O"
        
        my_func3()
        my_func1()       
    if Y==['1', ' ', '3']:
        C="O"
        
        my_func3()
        my_func1()    
    if Y==['2', ' ', '1']:
        D="O"
       
        my_func3()
        my_func1()   
    if Y==['2', ' ', '2']:
        E="O"
        
        my_func3()
        my_func1()
    if Y==['2', ' ', '3']:
        F="O"
        
        my_func3()
        my_func1()

    if Y==['3', ' ', '1']:
        G="O"
        
        my_func3()
        my_func1()
    if Y==['3', ' ', '2']:
        H="O"
        
        my_func3()
        my_func1()
    if Y==['3', ' ', '3']:
        I="O"
        
        my_func3()
        my_func1()

def my_func3():
    if A and B and C=="X":
        print("X win")
    elif D=="X" and E=="X" and F=="X":
        print("X win")
    elif G=="X" and H=="X" and I=="X":
        print("X win")
    elif A=="X" and D=="X" and G=="X":
        print("X win")
    elif B=="X" and E=="X" and H=="X":
        print("X win")
    elif C=="X" and F=="X" and I=="X":
        print("X win")
    elif A=="X" and E=="X" and I=="X":
        print("X win")
    elif A=="O" and B=="O" and C=="O":
        print("O win")
    elif D=="O" and E=="O" and F=="O":
        print("O win")
    elif G=="O" and H=="O" and I=="O":
        print("O win")
    elif A=="O" and D=="O" and G=="O":
        print("O win")
    elif B=="O" and E=="O" and H=="O":
        print("O win")
    elif C=="O" and F=="O" and I=="O":
        print("O win")
    elif A=="O" and E=="O" and I=="O":
        print("O win")
    elif N==0:
        print("DRAW")
print(A,B)
P=input("X/O:")
if P=="X":
    my_func1()
else:
    my_func2()



why cant function to print X or O win...


From nsssayom at gmail.com  Sat Apr 15 08:16:03 2017
From: nsssayom at gmail.com (Sayom Shakib)
Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2017 05:16:03 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Python Environment Setup in Windows 10
Message-ID: <1a5f7408-bc14-4bc4-af5a-78f36822f54c@googlegroups.com>

I am a beginner .NET developer. But I need to use python now for a project. I need to use Scikit-Learn, Numpy, Scipy, matplotlib.pyplot, Pandas, Keras, TensorFlow etc libraries (Mostly for Machine Learning).

To be more specific, I want to implement this example-

http://machinelearningmastery.com/time-series-prediction-with-deep-learning-in-python-with-keras/
I want to use PyCharm as my IDE. But I am tired trying to install python, anaconda, CUDA etc etc, nothing helps me run those codes. I am sure that the problem is with environment setup. I need a complete walkthrough about the installation and other setup procedures (Including path variable changes and other details). (I will uninstall all the python related things are currently installed in my system.)

I use Windows 10 (64 Bit) And I have a NVIDIA 1050 Ti GPU. (Want to use GPU installation for TensorFlow).

I have Visual Studio 2015 installed in my system.


From bc at freeuk.com  Sat Apr 15 08:17:45 2017
From: bc at freeuk.com (bartc)
Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2017 13:17:45 +0100
Subject: Python and the need for speed
In-Reply-To: <616ebaec-f140-491c-897e-f2c4b8368d28@googlegroups.com>
References: <768f9a44-5d90-4756-8a99-821253a491f8@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.5.1491710256.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <58e9e519$0$1528$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <mailman.9.1491728745.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <58ec9192$0$1602$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <oci97l$10u4$1@gioia.aioe.org>
 <58eceea2$0$1615$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <CAE6NSRD=xU_mNECNBU2w92Br=vgHJJVqSruGFrPB=vrbpkj0Nw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPjBxg_49OD_CNXUAHKjxYsUiLab4s_fCs_Ast3LyymB82zTCA@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.68.1491956914.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <4277c149-e136-4d33-91d5-d011df9149f1@googlegroups.com>
 <58edcdd2$0$1501$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <fdb4a93a-688e-4a3f-bbc3-0df3ee1d2ac7@googlegroups.com>
 <54f1685d-1d2d-44b5-869e-a510569ba9d1@googlegroups.com>
 <lf5a87ln8k9.fsf@ling.helsinki.fi>
 <1d352948-9029-4b86-b2f1-2b52608109ea@googlegroups.com>
 <616ebaec-f140-491c-897e-f2c4b8368d28@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <IboIA.298355$0L.88195@fx12.am4>

On 15/04/2017 03:35, Rick Johnson wrote:
> On Wednesday, April 12, 2017 at 8:44:30 AM UTC-5, bart... at gmail.com wrote:

> At a minimum, every language should offer
> the following four loop-forms (using Python semantics):
>
>     while CONDITION:
>         doSomething()
>
>     for VALUE in COLLECTION:
>         doSomething(value)
>
>     loop(N):
>         doSomething()
>
>     loop(N) as i:
>        doSomething(i)
>

Yes, I'm constantly surprised at this, as such syntax has a very low 
cost (in my last compiler, supporting 'while' for example only added 30 
lines to the project).

Of course, it's possible to overdo it; if you look at Lisp, you'll lose 
yourself in the myriad looping options.

But very common requirements are endless loops, and repeat N times 
without needing an explicit counter. The former /can/ be easily written as:

     while 1:
         body

but it's more psychological; I don't want to use an idiom to denote an 
endless loop, I want to be able to express it directly!

Python's byte-code does at least optimise out the check that '1' is 
true, but that's not what the reader sees, which is 'loop while 1 is 
true'. And one day it will be:

     while l:
         body

that can be mistaken for that common idiom.

-- 
bartc


From steve+python at pearwood.info  Sat Apr 15 08:47:39 2017
From: steve+python at pearwood.info (Steve D'Aprano)
Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2017 22:47:39 +1000
Subject: Python and the need for speed
References: <768f9a44-5d90-4756-8a99-821253a491f8@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.5.1491710256.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <58e9e519$0$1528$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <mailman.9.1491728745.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <58ec9192$0$1602$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <oci97l$10u4$1@gioia.aioe.org>
 <58eceea2$0$1615$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <CAE6NSRD=xU_mNECNBU2w92Br=vgHJJVqSruGFrPB=vrbpkj0Nw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPjBxg_49OD_CNXUAHKjxYsUiLab4s_fCs_Ast3LyymB82zTCA@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.68.1491956914.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <4277c149-e136-4d33-91d5-d011df9149f1@googlegroups.com>
 <58edcdd2$0$1501$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <95345397-bb7f-46e9-ba4d-c398a2aeae88@googlegroups.com>
 <gKdIA.462700$FF4.238652@fx27.am4>
Message-ID: <58f2166e$0$1603$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>

On Sat, 15 Apr 2017 10:23 am, bartc wrote:

> On 15/04/2017 00:40, Rick Johnson wrote:

>>   * `range(10)` will always produce a list of the _same_ 10
>>   integers.
> 
> You don't know if 'range' is still a range. If this has been executed
> first, then the answer will be 20:
> 
> oldrange=range
> def double(x): return oldrange(x*2)
> range=double

Correct.

It is true that *at the moment* CPython doesn't know if range has been
shadowed or redefined, but Victor Stinner is working on a project,
FATPython, which will. Or at least, FATPython can tell:

- there's no chance that range() has been redefined, so it is safe to
optimize the call to it;

- or there is a chance, in which case it is not safe to optimize.



>>   * `for i in range(10)` will aways iterate over the _same_
>>   10 integers
> 
> And range could be set to something else each time the loop is executed.

It could, but that won't effect the loop.

py> old_range = range
py> for i in range(5):
...     range = i*100
...     print(i)
...
0
1
2
3
4
py> range
400



>>   * `answer += 1` will always increment the "current integer
>>   value" by 1
> 
> I don't know if it's possible to override __iadd__ for integers so that
> +=1 does something different here.

No, Python doesn't allow the built-in types to be monkey-patched. However,
that's not the problem. The problem is that CPython doesn't know whether
answer is a built-in int or not until runtime.




-- 
Steve
?Cheer up,? they said, ?things could be worse.? So I cheered up, and sure
enough, things got worse.



From rantingrickjohnson at gmail.com  Sat Apr 15 08:50:12 2017
From: rantingrickjohnson at gmail.com (Rick Johnson)
Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2017 05:50:12 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Calling dunder methods manually
In-Reply-To: <mailman.128.1492066889.2951.python-list@python.org>
References: <58ef0cd3$0$1501$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <ocn7nn$3cq$1@blaine.gmane.org>
 <mailman.128.1492066889.2951.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <5190e78b-972a-4678-8ee0-5d76d7452ab0@googlegroups.com>

On Thursday, April 13, 2017 at 2:01:41 AM UTC-5, Serhiy Storchaka wrote:
>
> __init__ is perhaps the most called dunder method. It is
> often called from the __init__ method of subclasses.

Yes, that would be one of the exceptions to the rule, but
not because the rule is unsound, but because Python's super
really sucks. Even to this day, i avoid super because the
semantics are confusing, eaisier to just write the path in
long-form. In many other languages though, super is
intelligent enough to know what scope it is in. But in any
event, i cannot think one one good reason to call dunder
methods from outside a class definition (maybe someone can
think of a few???).

> __add__ also can be called from other __add__, __iadd__ or
> __radd__.

Some people have mentioned using the methods of the operator
module to avoid calling dunders, but from the POV of
consistency, i think such a policy would be a bad idea and
just more evidence that Python's super is woefully
inadequate.

Which begs the question: "What's the point of having super
if the majority are unwilling to use it?" Hmm. I suppose
"for consistency's sake" would be the only legitimate
answer.


From kondaiah505 at gmail.com  Sat Apr 15 09:13:54 2017
From: kondaiah505 at gmail.com (kondaiah sinha)
Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2017 06:13:54 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: what type of application implemented with python?
Message-ID: <957c77db-c61d-4b70-9cc6-5add541b8043@googlegroups.com>

what type of application implemented with python?...like by using java we can implement web,Standard alone app's,mobile based.
Can anyone tell me is it possible to implement Standard alone applications with, if possible give any example


From marko at pacujo.net  Sat Apr 15 09:27:55 2017
From: marko at pacujo.net (Marko Rauhamaa)
Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2017 16:27:55 +0300
Subject: Python and the need for speed
References: <768f9a44-5d90-4756-8a99-821253a491f8@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.5.1491710256.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <58e9e519$0$1528$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <mailman.9.1491728745.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <58ec9192$0$1602$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <oci97l$10u4$1@gioia.aioe.org>
 <58eceea2$0$1615$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <CAE6NSRD=xU_mNECNBU2w92Br=vgHJJVqSruGFrPB=vrbpkj0Nw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPjBxg_49OD_CNXUAHKjxYsUiLab4s_fCs_Ast3LyymB82zTCA@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.68.1491956914.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <4277c149-e136-4d33-91d5-d011df9149f1@googlegroups.com>
 <58edcdd2$0$1501$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <fdb4a93a-688e-4a3f-bbc3-0df3ee1d2ac7@googlegroups.com>
 <54f1685d-1d2d-44b5-869e-a510569ba9d1@googlegroups.com>
 <lf5a87ln8k9.fsf@ling.helsinki.fi>
 <1d352948-9029-4b86-b2f1-2b52608109ea@googlegroups.com>
 <616ebaec-f140-491c-897e-f2c4b8368d28@googlegroups.com>
 <IboIA.298355$0L.88195@fx12.am4>
Message-ID: <87zifhx0kk.fsf@elektro.pacujo.net>

bartc <bc at freeuk.com>:

> Of course, it's possible to overdo it; if you look at Lisp, you'll lose
> yourself in the myriad looping options.

Funny, in Scheme, the only looping construct I use is named-let.

> The former /can/ be easily written as:
>
>     while 1:
>         body

Why not say it like it is:

   while True:
       body

> but it's more psychological; I don't want to use an idiom to denote an
> endless loop, I want to be able to express it directly!

C's:

    for (;;)
        statement

I would call an idiom.

Python's

    while True:
        body

is about as straightforward as it gets.

> Python's byte-code does at least optimise

I don't understand why there's so much talk about CPython's bytecode on
this list. That should only be of interest to active CPython developers.


Marko


From rantingrickjohnson at gmail.com  Sat Apr 15 09:28:40 2017
From: rantingrickjohnson at gmail.com (Rick Johnson)
Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2017 06:28:40 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Python and the need for speed
In-Reply-To: <IboIA.298355$0L.88195@fx12.am4>
References: <768f9a44-5d90-4756-8a99-821253a491f8@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.5.1491710256.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <58e9e519$0$1528$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <mailman.9.1491728745.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <58ec9192$0$1602$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <oci97l$10u4$1@gioia.aioe.org>
 <58eceea2$0$1615$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <CAE6NSRD=xU_mNECNBU2w92Br=vgHJJVqSruGFrPB=vrbpkj0Nw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPjBxg_49OD_CNXUAHKjxYsUiLab4s_fCs_Ast3LyymB82zTCA@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.68.1491956914.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <4277c149-e136-4d33-91d5-d011df9149f1@googlegroups.com>
 <58edcdd2$0$1501$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <fdb4a93a-688e-4a3f-bbc3-0df3ee1d2ac7@googlegroups.com>
 <54f1685d-1d2d-44b5-869e-a510569ba9d1@googlegroups.com>
 <lf5a87ln8k9.fsf@ling.helsinki.fi>
 <1d352948-9029-4b86-b2f1-2b52608109ea@googlegroups.com>
 <616ebaec-f140-491c-897e-f2c4b8368d28@googlegroups.com>
 <IboIA.298355$0L.88195@fx12.am4>
Message-ID: <45b1d7a2-568e-4e42-8897-26bd007c96e0@googlegroups.com>

On Saturday, April 15, 2017 at 7:17:55 AM UTC-5, bartc wrote:
> On 15/04/2017 03:35, Rick Johnson wrote:
> > On Wednesday, April 12, 2017 at 8:44:30 AM UTC-5, bart... at gmail.com wrote:
>
> > At a minimum, every language should offer
> > the following four loop-forms (using Python semantics):
> >
> >     while CONDITION:
> >         doSomething()
> >
> >     for VALUE in COLLECTION:
> >         doSomething(value)
> >
> >     loop(N):
> >         doSomething()
> >
> >     loop(N) as i:
> >        doSomething(i)
> >
>
> Yes, I'm constantly surprised at this, as such syntax has a
> very low cost (in my last compiler, supporting 'while' for
> example only added 30 lines to the project).  Of course,
> it's possible to overdo it; if you look at Lisp, you'll
> lose yourself in the myriad looping options.  But very
> common requirements are endless loops, and repeat N times
> without needing an explicit counter. The former /can/ be
> easily written as:
>
>      while 1:
>          body
>
> but it's more psychological; I don't want to use an idiom
> to denote an endless loop, I want to be able to express it
> directly!


A good point. I don't like the idiom of using "always True
conditions" to denote an endless loop either. So it's just a
matter of recognizing that loop() without an "explicit
confining parameter", would be endless.

loop:
    # This loop never ends.

Of course, recognizing that at some point that the loop will
need to end, or that something surprizing will cause it to
end, how then would you end it in a clean manner? Which
would cause the semantics to be:

loop:
    # This loop never ends. Well "never" unless an
    # exception occurs; or the hardware malfunctions; or
    # melts; or unless nuclear war breaks out; or unless the
    # sun expands and envelopes the earth -- except for
    # those cases (and possibly a long list of others...),
    # it never ends. ;-)

> Python's byte-code does at least optimise out the check
> that '1' is true, but that's not what the reader sees,
> which is 'loop while 1 is true'. And one day it will be:
>
>      while l:
>          body
>
> that can be mistaken for that common idiom.

Another good point. However that's more a consequence of
using 1 as a truth value than anything else. Python has
offered booleans for a loooong time, so i don't understand
why some of us feel the need to use 0 and 1 in place of the
more intuitive (and less bug prone) False and True. The
obvious solution is:

while True:
    # This loop never ends.
    # (Note: see exceptions above)

Integers should only be utilized for their numeric value,
and nothing else. Python should never allow an integer to be
used as a truth value, only booleans or expressions that
evaluate to a truth value. Of course, these can perverted
also.

if 1 == 1: # superfluous! 1 will always equal 1

if None: # superfluous! None will always be False

if True == False: # superfluous! True and False will never be equal.

etc...

(of course, i _hope_ those examples are rock solid. Sometimes,
i forget how utterly and stubbornly dynamic this damned
language can be!)


From bc at freeuk.com  Sat Apr 15 10:37:41 2017
From: bc at freeuk.com (bartc)
Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2017 15:37:41 +0100
Subject: Python and the need for speed
In-Reply-To: <87zifhx0kk.fsf@elektro.pacujo.net>
References: <768f9a44-5d90-4756-8a99-821253a491f8@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.5.1491710256.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <58e9e519$0$1528$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <mailman.9.1491728745.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <58ec9192$0$1602$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <oci97l$10u4$1@gioia.aioe.org>
 <58eceea2$0$1615$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <CAE6NSRD=xU_mNECNBU2w92Br=vgHJJVqSruGFrPB=vrbpkj0Nw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPjBxg_49OD_CNXUAHKjxYsUiLab4s_fCs_Ast3LyymB82zTCA@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.68.1491956914.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <4277c149-e136-4d33-91d5-d011df9149f1@googlegroups.com>
 <58edcdd2$0$1501$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <fdb4a93a-688e-4a3f-bbc3-0df3ee1d2ac7@googlegroups.com>
 <54f1685d-1d2d-44b5-869e-a510569ba9d1@googlegroups.com>
 <lf5a87ln8k9.fsf@ling.helsinki.fi>
 <1d352948-9029-4b86-b2f1-2b52608109ea@googlegroups.com>
 <616ebaec-f140-491c-897e-f2c4b8368d28@googlegroups.com>
 <IboIA.298355$0L.88195@fx12.am4> <87zifhx0kk.fsf@elektro.pacujo.net>
Message-ID: <UeqIA.378427$Iy2.280401@fx28.am4>

On 15/04/2017 14:27, Marko Rauhamaa wrote:
> bartc <bc at freeuk.com>:

>>     while 1:
>>         body
>
> Why not say it like it is:
>
>    while True:
>        body
>
>> but it's more psychological; I don't want to use an idiom to denote an
>> endless loop, I want to be able to express it directly!
>
> C's:
>
>     for (;;)
>         statement
>
> I would call an idiom.

I don't like that either!

> Python's
>
>     while True:
>         body
>
> is about as straightforward as it gets.

In the syntax I normally use (based on Algol 68), the endless loop is:

    do
      body
    end

(well, actually I use do body od, but that may have raised some eyebrows).

'do', in the original Algol 68 syntax, was part of its 'for' statement, 
where you could leave out the parts you don't need. The full syntax is 
something like:

   for var := a to b by c while d do body od

If you leave out the first part you get a while loop. Leave out all 
except 'to b do', you get a repeat-n-times loop. And so on.

Elegant. (I don't do it that way, I have discrete loop types, plus my 
own variations. Devising syntax is so easy, the hard bit is knowing when 
to stop...)

>
>> Python's byte-code does at least optimise
>
> I don't understand why there's so much talk about CPython's bytecode on
> this list. That should only be of interest to active CPython developers.

What proportion of Python implementations depend on executing byte-code?

-- 
Bartc


From breamoreboy at gmail.com  Sat Apr 15 10:54:55 2017
From: breamoreboy at gmail.com (breamoreboy at gmail.com)
Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2017 07:54:55 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Regular Expressions, Speed, Python, and NFA
In-Reply-To: <0e334222-676b-4a7b-91c2-1345592cced5@googlegroups.com>
References: <0e334222-676b-4a7b-91c2-1345592cced5@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <52ab7956-a489-4a9b-b49d-791982633e64@googlegroups.com>

On Friday, April 14, 2017 at 4:12:27 PM UTC+1, Malik Rumi wrote:
> I am running some tests using the site regex101 to figure out the correct regexs to use for a project. I was surprised at how slow it was, constantly needing to increase the timeouts. I went Googling for a reason, and solution, and found Russ Cox?s article from 2007: https://swtch.com/~rsc/regexp/regexp1.html . I couldn?t understand why, if this was even remotely correct, we don?t use NFA in Python, which led me here:
> 
> https://groups.google.com/forum/#!msg/comp.lang.python/L1ZFI_R2hAo/C12Nf3patWIJ;context-place=forum/comp.lang.python where all of these issues were addressed. Unfortunately, this is also from 2007. 
> 
> BTW, John Machin in one of his replies cites Navarro?s paper, but that link is broken. Navarro?s work can now be found at http://citeseer.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.21.3112&rep=rep1&type=pdf But be forewarned, it is 68 pages of dense reading. I am not a computer science major. I am not new to Python, but I don?t think I?m qualified to take on the idea of creating a new NFA module for Python.  
> 
> I am not a computer science major. I am not new to Python, but I don?t think I?m qualified to take on the idea of creating a new NFA module for Python.  Nor am I entirely sure I want to try something new (to me) like TRE. 
> 
> Most threads related to this topic are older than 2007. I did find this https://groups.google.com/forum/#!searchin/comp.lang.python/regex$20speed%7Csort:relevance/comp.lang.python/O7rUwVoD2t0/NYAQM0mUX7sJ from 2011 but I did not do an exhaustive search. 
> 
> The bottom line is I wanted to know if anything has changed since 2007, and if there is a) any hope for improving regex speeds in Python, or b) some 3rd party module/library that is already out there and solves this problem? Or should I just take this advice?
> 
> 
> Thanks.

Check out https://pypi.python.org/pypi/regex and for a little light background reading please see http://bugs.python.org/issue2636

Kindest regards.

Mark Lawrence.


From karlfx4 at gmail.com  Sat Apr 15 11:18:31 2017
From: karlfx4 at gmail.com (Peter Henry)
Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2017 16:18:31 +0100
Subject: Swiss Ephemeris
Message-ID: <CAD35gQio_KBOijL=mcN4Eawf14RkaeGqQpEtLvVvtG-mRR47hQ@mail.gmail.com>

Hi

I hired a programmer to help to extract data for windows 10 64 Bit system

You will be able  generate data and  use for your models,  the idea is to
eventually get Swiss Ephemeris working as phython file
Create folder and use and drop Swedll64.dll and Swetest64.exe into same
folder as spreadsheet

Happy Easter

Peter

On 10 April 2017 at 02:52, Deborah Swanson <python at deborahswanson.net>
wrote:

> Peter Henry wrote, on Sunday, April 09, 2017 10:53 AM
> >
> > I have a package that has been altered to imported in to
> > python, however I tired to get is working but without success
> > I be missing something obvious
> >
> > The Swiss Ephemeris enable planetary coordinate  to be
> > imported and used in your program
> >
> > Files access https://pypi.python.org/pypi/pyswisseph
> >
> > Many thanks in advance
> >
> > Peter
>
> I've also worked on the problem of getting sweph into Python and have
> mostly struck out so far myself.
>
> I found one reliable means to get sweph's planetary data into Python,
> but it's more or less a cheat. Nonetheless, if you want to see how much
> good it does you, try the Swiss Ephemeris Test Page at
> http://www.astro.com/swisseph/swetest.htm. If you can successfully
> formulate a query useful to your purposes, you can download a csv of
> results, read it into Python, and work from there. Right now I'm working
> on converting some Excel spreadsheets and Excel VBA I use into Python
> and recoding it all, using the CSVs for jumping off points. That works
> pretty well, except the times from swetest are off a bit and I haven't
> figured out why. But I'm concentrating on getting all my VBA code ported
> to Python, and will go back to getting bang on data from sweph after I
> have my code done.
>
> The first thing I tried was to get sweph's C source code into a free
> IDE, but that whole project went down in flames. You can read bits and
> pieces of that misadventure at the tail end of the "Python application
> launcher (for Python code)" thread. I found sweph's C source code at
> some link off "Programming interface to the Swiss Ephemeris" at
> http://www.astro.com/swisseph/swephprg.htm (or maybe it was on
> http://www.astro.com/swisseph/swephinfo_e.htm - I can't easily find it
> now, but the download link is in one of those two pages somewhere.)
>
> Then I tried picking through sweph's C source code, attempting to
> manually reproduce the logic and the calculations in Python. That was a
> highly qualified semi-success because the times were still off, but it
> essentially produces the most basic planetary data. The swetest output
> CSVs were more complete however, and easy to read the planetary data
> into Python from, so I'd pretty much abandoned efforts to "translate"
> the C source code. And now, all my efforts to leverage the C source
> code. Even if successful it would be a lot more time sunk into working
> with a language other than Python, which I likely wouldn't have a use
> for after this project is completed.
>
> However, I have seen bits here and there on this list that are at least
> interesting. Tim Chase mentioned in passing that he encapsulated C
> source code in a class, which may bear looking into. Lutz Horn also gave
> a link for building a Python module to add a C language library to
> Python, which also might be worth checking out:
> https://docs.python.org/3/extending/index.html (I changed the 2 to a 3
> from the link he gave, but you can change it back to 2 if your working
> in a build of Python 2.)
>
> But many thanks for your pypi link to pyswisseph, which I will check
> out. I can reply to this thread after I give it a shot and tell you what
> I think of it. But like I said earlier, that won't be until all my Excel
> VBA code, which jumps off from the sweph bare planetary data, is ported
> to Python and working. Could be awhile yet. And if pyswisseph doesn't
> pan out, I'll likely work on refining the two methods I have for
> producing the planetary data, both of which are only lacking precisely
> accurate time data in my local time, and both are off by only 5-30
> minutes. I easily limped along for years with my Excel spread sheets
> using the swetest CSVs for input, even though my times then were more
> than a day off.
>
> Good luck! (and this venture is a goodly portion of luck...)
>
> Deborah
>
> PS. I've been using medical astrology to look ahead at my medical
> condition for years in advance. And being off by a day or so doesn't
> matter that much when you're looking at trends over the course of years
> and decades. I also have a little software widget to look at the
> planetary data in graphical chart form at any particular second, also
> based on sweph, which has been quite astoundingly accurate in following
> the rather complex kaleidoscope of my symptoms during the course of a
> day. (Though it doesn't do you a bit of good if you forget to look!
> Which is my entire motivation to get it encoded and available with a few
> clicks.) And it is quite useful to know in advance what will be
> happening when, and most importantly when it will stop. Knowledge is
> power!
>
> Caveat. This kind of precision and accuracy is only found in the
> specific forms of astrology which relate to pure physical phenomena, and
> most of what you see these days masquerading as astrology is pure hooey,
> almost entirely invented on  a large scale in the Middle Ages and
> flowered in the Renaissance. By pure physical phenomena, which is the
> only phenomena that is at least debatably influenced by physical
> planetary forces, I mean things like the moon's tides, sunspots, plant
> and animal activity throughout the year, and supremely, the inner
> workings of the human body, the first wholly Western medicine devised by
> the ancient Greeks. (The ancient Greek physicians are an excellent
> fallback if modern medicine is failing you - if you can find enough that
> remains today of their art.)
>
>


From jsf80238 at gmail.com  Sat Apr 15 11:54:40 2017
From: jsf80238 at gmail.com (Jason Friedman)
Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2017 09:54:40 -0600
Subject: TIC TAE TOE's problem(i am beginner)
In-Reply-To: <1f99a232-568a-4228-9661-7241e408d468@googlegroups.com>
References: <1f99a232-568a-4228-9661-7241e408d468@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <CANy1k1iHgJcNczqCuSr6WbozHA5dDLU7frvtQrshXA-swZs4cw@mail.gmail.com>

>
> P=input("X/O:")
> if P=="X":
>     my_func1()
> else:
>     my_func2()
>
>
>
> why cant function to print X or O win...
>

As a beginner I'd try to code using Python idioms rather than writing
Python using BASIC idioms.
Try to understand how this code works:
https://codereview.stackexchange.com/questions/108738/python-tic-tac-toe-game
Note that one of the answers on that page has improved the original
poster's code.


From ben.usenet at bsb.me.uk  Sat Apr 15 12:31:00 2017
From: ben.usenet at bsb.me.uk (Ben Bacarisse)
Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2017 17:31:00 +0100
Subject: Python and the need for speed
References: <768f9a44-5d90-4756-8a99-821253a491f8@googlegroups.com>
 <58e9e519$0$1528$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <mailman.9.1491728745.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <58ec9192$0$1602$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <oci97l$10u4$1@gioia.aioe.org>
 <58eceea2$0$1615$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <CAE6NSRD=xU_mNECNBU2w92Br=vgHJJVqSruGFrPB=vrbpkj0Nw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPjBxg_49OD_CNXUAHKjxYsUiLab4s_fCs_Ast3LyymB82zTCA@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.68.1491956914.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <4277c149-e136-4d33-91d5-d011df9149f1@googlegroups.com>
 <58edcdd2$0$1501$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <fdb4a93a-688e-4a3f-bbc3-0df3ee1d2ac7@googlegroups.com>
 <54f1685d-1d2d-44b5-869e-a510569ba9d1@googlegroups.com>
 <lf5a87ln8k9.fsf@ling.helsinki.fi>
 <1d352948-9029-4b86-b2f1-2b52608109ea@googlegroups.com>
 <616ebaec-f140-491c-897e-f2c4b8368d28@googlegroups.com>
 <IboIA.298355$0L.88195@fx12.am4> <87zifhx0kk.fsf@elektro.pacujo.net>
 <UeqIA.378427$Iy2.280401@fx28.am4>
Message-ID: <87h91ppr97.fsf@bsb.me.uk>

bartc <bc at freeuk.com> writes:
<snip>

> 'do', in the original Algol 68 syntax, was part of its 'for'
> statement, where you could leave out the parts you don't need. The
> full syntax is something like:
>
>   for var := a to b by c while d do body od

  FOR name FROM e1 BY e2 TO e3 WHILE cond DO body OD

The significant part is the the name is bound to a value and can't be
assigned in the body.  (You don't say it can be but "var := a" makes var
look like a plain Algol68 variable.)

<snip>
-- 
Ben.


From torriem at gmail.com  Sat Apr 15 13:35:24 2017
From: torriem at gmail.com (Michael Torrie)
Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2017 11:35:24 -0600
Subject: Python and the need for speed
In-Reply-To: <UeqIA.378427$Iy2.280401@fx28.am4>
References: <768f9a44-5d90-4756-8a99-821253a491f8@googlegroups.com>
 <58e9e519$0$1528$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <mailman.9.1491728745.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <58ec9192$0$1602$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <oci97l$10u4$1@gioia.aioe.org>
 <58eceea2$0$1615$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <CAE6NSRD=xU_mNECNBU2w92Br=vgHJJVqSruGFrPB=vrbpkj0Nw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPjBxg_49OD_CNXUAHKjxYsUiLab4s_fCs_Ast3LyymB82zTCA@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.68.1491956914.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <4277c149-e136-4d33-91d5-d011df9149f1@googlegroups.com>
 <58edcdd2$0$1501$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <fdb4a93a-688e-4a3f-bbc3-0df3ee1d2ac7@googlegroups.com>
 <54f1685d-1d2d-44b5-869e-a510569ba9d1@googlegroups.com>
 <lf5a87ln8k9.fsf@ling.helsinki.fi>
 <1d352948-9029-4b86-b2f1-2b52608109ea@googlegroups.com>
 <616ebaec-f140-491c-897e-f2c4b8368d28@googlegroups.com>
 <IboIA.298355$0L.88195@fx12.am4> <87zifhx0kk.fsf@elektro.pacujo.net>
 <UeqIA.378427$Iy2.280401@fx28.am4>
Message-ID: <4a4d79bc-3d7f-c8f8-06ee-cc5c4c4f32ca@gmail.com>

On 04/15/2017 08:37 AM, bartc wrote:
> What proportion of Python implementations depend on executing byte-code?

Presumably Nuitka does not depend on any byte code at all.  Jython uses
JVM byte codes.  Iron Python uses .net VM bytecodes.

While CPython's byte codes do take their form in part because of Python
and its syntax. But that doesn't mean that Python itself as a language
is necessarily dependent on the specifics of the CPython byte code
interpreter and architecture, though I concede that for some aspects of
Python, the behavior of the language is defined by the CPython
implementation.  The two aspects are definitely linked, but not as
solidly as you seem to think.


From grant.b.edwards at gmail.com  Sat Apr 15 13:45:23 2017
From: grant.b.edwards at gmail.com (Grant Edwards)
Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2017 17:45:23 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: Python Command Line Arguments
References: <f1a2d3e9-11ed-4334-bdb1-9957ba19781b@googlegroups.com>
 <CANy1k1hnHM42uu+M0OQhdinJkNC9MXxBwKF3S01Pd64HhGmy3w@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.113.1492050793.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <41v6sd-6ve.ln1@bernd.nawothnig.dialin.t-online.de>
Message-ID: <octm7j$s0i$1@blaine.gmane.org>

On 2017-04-14, Bernd Nawothnig <Bernd.Nawothnig at t-online.de> wrote:

> He should switch to argparse in any case because getopt is no longer
> supported and does only receive bugfixes.

In my book, "receiving bug fixes" means it's still supported.

--
Grant



From breamoreboy at gmail.com  Sat Apr 15 14:47:06 2017
From: breamoreboy at gmail.com (breamoreboy at gmail.com)
Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2017 11:47:06 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Python Command Line Arguments
In-Reply-To: <mailman.203.1492278338.2951.python-list@python.org>
References: <f1a2d3e9-11ed-4334-bdb1-9957ba19781b@googlegroups.com>
 <CANy1k1hnHM42uu+M0OQhdinJkNC9MXxBwKF3S01Pd64HhGmy3w@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.113.1492050793.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <41v6sd-6ve.ln1@bernd.nawothnig.dialin.t-online.de>
 <octm7j$s0i$1@blaine.gmane.org>
 <mailman.203.1492278338.2951.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <01938fc6-55e3-41f8-b52b-9f62e5aafdba@googlegroups.com>

On Saturday, April 15, 2017 at 6:45:51 PM UTC+1, Grant Edwards wrote:
> On 2017-04-14, Bernd Nawothnig wrote:
> 
> > He should switch to argparse in any case because getopt is no longer
> > supported and does only receive bugfixes.
> 
> In my book, "receiving bug fixes" means it's still supported.
> 
> --
> Grant

Just to reinforce what I said before, optparse is deprecated, not getopt.

Kindest regards.

Mark Lawrence.


From ozovozovozo202 at gmail.com  Sat Apr 15 15:34:45 2017
From: ozovozovozo202 at gmail.com (Debiller 777)
Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2017 12:34:45 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: New implementation(patterns)
Message-ID: <622a1dab-a87b-4ff9-9e2a-a16cbe72bf1f@googlegroups.com>

So.....Basically recently I just faced with some problem. I wanted to create my own data type. I created new class put something in it. But I really wanted to set items in it like so:
========
>>>datatype[0][0][1]=1
========
As you could see I used 3 keys.... But magic method __setitem__ alows me only to do something like this:
=======
>>>datatype[0,0,1]=1
=======
And that's a little bit uncomortable.
Also...I know that  probably everyone sometime wanted to 'hide' class name when you create object and not to write this:
=======
>>>var=MyClass('David')
=======
...And instead to write this:
=======
>>>var=<David>
>>>var
<__main__.MyClass object at 0x0000006242B13748>
=======
I think that would be much easier and glamourus.
So here I present you special type of object: pattern


Example:
=======
>>>&mypattern='<'str'>'
======
Here I created variable that stored pattern
This pattern allows me to write '<>' with string in this
For example from that momemnt if I type '<Example>'
Nothing will happen.
Also patterns can have commands in them:
======
>>>&mynewpattern='#'list'#'
>>> def &mynewpattern:
...   return MyClass(list)
======
Here I gave pattern 'mynewpattern' functionality. Now it RETURNS CLASS!!!
This way we could make shorter and more beautiful.In the example list is type of data like string or integer. And now I made that when I type lists with '#'s program returns class MyClass.

That's concludes explanation of patterns

P.S. Ask me in comments if you didnt understand something. 


From saxri89 at gmail.com  Sat Apr 15 15:36:51 2017
From: saxri89 at gmail.com (Xristos Xristoou)
Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2017 12:36:51 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: how to get image url from django form
Message-ID: <51e7e2ff-c221-4f62-bdb0-963b016eff2f@googlegroups.com>

i have create a simple django form where the authentication user can select one of personal images where have upload before and i want do something with that request in my views.py.

but i dont know how to take the image url from that request in my view because first i using request.user in the form to take only self user images and i dont know how to continue and finaly i take that images url.

the form work great show me only the self user images

any idea ?

here the code

views.py

   @login_required(login_url="login/")
    def carlist(request):
        Myform = MyModelForm(user=request.user)
        return render(request,'about.html',{'Myform':Myform})

select django form :

class MyModelForm(ModelForm):
    def __init__(self, *args, **kwargs):
        # extract "user" from kwrags (passed upon form init)
        if 'user' in kwargs:
            self.user = kwargs.pop('user')
        super(MyModelForm, self).__init__(*args, **kwargs)
        # generate the choices as (display, value). Display is the one that'll be shown to user, value is the one that'll be sent upon submitting (the "value" attribute of <option>)
        choices = MyModel.objects.filter(user=self.user).values_list('upload', 'id')
        self.fields['upload'].widget = Select(choices=choices)

    class Meta:
        model = MyModel
        fields = ('upload',)

html :

    <form class="" action="" method="post" enctype="multipart/form-data">
    {% csrf_token %}
      {{ Myform}}
    <input type="submit" name="" value="Submit">



From rambiusparkisanius at gmail.com  Sat Apr 15 17:07:35 2017
From: rambiusparkisanius at gmail.com (Ivan "Rambius" Ivanov)
Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2017 00:07:35 +0300
Subject: what type of application implemented with python?
In-Reply-To: <957c77db-c61d-4b70-9cc6-5add541b8043@googlegroups.com>
References: <957c77db-c61d-4b70-9cc6-5add541b8043@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <CAE9rwzPu+DQP_peQe0KqX4TB8-BbmdM65-pj1u7_xZ7YDBj3rQ@mail.gmail.com>

Hello,

Python's own website contains a non-exhaustive list of applications
implemeted in Python: https://www.python.org/about/apps/

Regards
Rambius

On Sat, Apr 15, 2017 at 4:13 PM, kondaiah sinha <kondaiah505 at gmail.com> wrote:
> what type of application implemented with python?...like by using java we can implement web,Standard alone app's,mobile based.
> Can anyone tell me is it possible to implement Standard alone applications with, if possible give any example
> --
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list



-- 
Tangra Mega Rock: http://www.radiotangra.com


From steve+python at pearwood.info  Sat Apr 15 20:35:04 2017
From: steve+python at pearwood.info (Steve D'Aprano)
Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2017 10:35:04 +1000
Subject: super() is super [was Re: Calling dunder methods manually]
References: <58ef0cd3$0$1501$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <ocn7nn$3cq$1@blaine.gmane.org>
 <mailman.128.1492066889.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <5190e78b-972a-4678-8ee0-5d76d7452ab0@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <58f2bc3b$0$1591$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>

On Sat, 15 Apr 2017 10:50 pm, Rick Johnson wrote:

> Even to this day, i avoid super because the
> semantics are confusing, 

If super() is confusing, it is because *inheritance* is confusing, and that
goes triple for multiple inheritance. If it is not *easy* to use super() to
manage your class' inheritance, that's a sign that your class hierarchy is
complicated and confusing and you're in a nightmare whether you use super()
or not.

But for the simple cases, using super() in Python 3 couldn't be easier. If
you have code that looks something like this:


class MyClass(ParentClass):
    def method(self, arg):
        result = ParentClass.method(self, arg)


you replace the last line with:

        result = super().method(arg)


If you have:

class MyClass(A, B):
    def method(self, arg):
        A.method(self, arg)
        B.method(self, arg)


you replace the last two lines with:

        super().method(arg)


See also:

https://rhettinger.wordpress.com/2011/05/26/super-considered-super/



> eaisier to just write the path in long-form.

Easier and wrong.

If you have multiple inheritance, and don't use super(), then your code is
buggy, whether you have realised it or not.

Manually calling your parent class is only acceptable if you can absolutely
guarantee that your class, all its parent classes, and all its subclasses
will ONLY use single inheritance.





-- 
Steve
?Cheer up,? they said, ?things could be worse.? So I cheered up, and sure
enough, things got worse.



From steve+python at pearwood.info  Sat Apr 15 20:40:25 2017
From: steve+python at pearwood.info (Steve D'Aprano)
Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2017 10:40:25 +1000
Subject: Python and the need for speed
References: <768f9a44-5d90-4756-8a99-821253a491f8@googlegroups.com>
 <58e9e519$0$1528$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <mailman.9.1491728745.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <58ec9192$0$1602$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <oci97l$10u4$1@gioia.aioe.org>
 <58eceea2$0$1615$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <CAE6NSRD=xU_mNECNBU2w92Br=vgHJJVqSruGFrPB=vrbpkj0Nw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPjBxg_49OD_CNXUAHKjxYsUiLab4s_fCs_Ast3LyymB82zTCA@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.68.1491956914.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <4277c149-e136-4d33-91d5-d011df9149f1@googlegroups.com>
 <58edcdd2$0$1501$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <fdb4a93a-688e-4a3f-bbc3-0df3ee1d2ac7@googlegroups.com>
 <54f1685d-1d2d-44b5-869e-a510569ba9d1@googlegroups.com>
 <lf5a87ln8k9.fsf@ling.helsinki.fi>
 <1d352948-9029-4b86-b2f1-2b52608109ea@googlegroups.com>
 <616ebaec-f140-491c-897e-f2c4b8368d28@googlegroups.com>
 <IboIA.298355$0L.88195@fx12.am4> <87zifhx0kk.fsf@elektro.pacujo.net>
 <UeqIA.378427$Iy2.280401@fx28.am4>
Message-ID: <58f2bd7b$0$1591$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>

On Sun, 16 Apr 2017 12:37 am, bartc wrote:

> What proportion of Python implementations depend on executing byte-code?

My guess is 100%.

Pretty much all modern interpreters of any language execute some form of
byte-code or another. The bad old days where interpreters repeatedly parsed
and executed each line of source are long gone.

PyPy generates some sort of byte-code, with a JIT compiler to generate
machine code on the fly for sufficiently "hot" code.

IronPython uses byte-code for the .Net virtual machine.

Jython uses byte-code for the Java virtual machine.

CPython uses byte-code for its own virtual machine.

There was a project for a Python interpreter for the Parrot VM, but I think
that's no longer in development.



-- 
Steve
?Cheer up,? they said, ?things could be worse.? So I cheered up, and sure
enough, things got worse.



From rosuav at gmail.com  Sat Apr 15 20:49:42 2017
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2017 10:49:42 +1000
Subject: super() is super [was Re: Calling dunder methods manually]
In-Reply-To: <58f2bc3b$0$1591$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
References: <58ef0cd3$0$1501$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <ocn7nn$3cq$1@blaine.gmane.org>
 <mailman.128.1492066889.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <5190e78b-972a-4678-8ee0-5d76d7452ab0@googlegroups.com>
 <58f2bc3b$0$1591$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmrOmLVUq5mcORV5S_d7w7XqYrSVTv4bUoZi0J3To=tnqw@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Apr 16, 2017 at 10:35 AM, Steve D'Aprano
<steve+python at pearwood.info> wrote:
>
>> eaisier to just write the path in long-form.
>
> Easier and wrong.
>
> If you have multiple inheritance, and don't use super(), then your code is
> buggy, whether you have realised it or not.
>
> Manually calling your parent class is only acceptable if you can absolutely
> guarantee that your class, all its parent classes, and all its subclasses
> will ONLY use single inheritance.

Plus, it's fragile in that it names the parent class everywhere.

class A:
    def __init__(self): ...
    def __add__(self, other): ...
    def __or__(self, other): ...

class B(A):
    def __init__(self):
        A.__init__(self)
    def __add__(self, other):
        A.__add__(self, other)
    ...

Every method you subclass-and-call-parent needs to say the name of the
parent class. With super, they all just say super(). I know which one
I'd rather do.

ChrisA


From steve+python at pearwood.info  Sat Apr 15 20:59:18 2017
From: steve+python at pearwood.info (Steve D'Aprano)
Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2017 10:59:18 +1000
Subject: New implementation(patterns)
References: <622a1dab-a87b-4ff9-9e2a-a16cbe72bf1f@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <58f2c1e9$0$1619$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>

On Sun, 16 Apr 2017 05:34 am, Debiller 777 wrote:


> >>> &mypattern='<'str'>'

That's a syntax error. Are you sure that's the actual, real, working code
you are using?


> >>> def &mynewpattern:
> ...   return MyClass(list)

That's also a syntax error.




-- 
Steve
?Cheer up,? they said, ?things could be worse.? So I cheered up, and sure
enough, things got worse.



From steve+python at pearwood.info  Sat Apr 15 22:51:46 2017
From: steve+python at pearwood.info (Steve D'Aprano)
Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2017 12:51:46 +1000
Subject: Looping [was Re: Python and the need for speed]
References: <768f9a44-5d90-4756-8a99-821253a491f8@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.5.1491710256.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <58e9e519$0$1528$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <mailman.9.1491728745.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <58ec9192$0$1602$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <oci97l$10u4$1@gioia.aioe.org>
 <58eceea2$0$1615$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <CAE6NSRD=xU_mNECNBU2w92Br=vgHJJVqSruGFrPB=vrbpkj0Nw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPjBxg_49OD_CNXUAHKjxYsUiLab4s_fCs_Ast3LyymB82zTCA@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.68.1491956914.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <4277c149-e136-4d33-91d5-d011df9149f1@googlegroups.com>
 <58edcdd2$0$1501$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <fdb4a93a-688e-4a3f-bbc3-0df3ee1d2ac7@googlegroups.com>
 <54f1685d-1d2d-44b5-869e-a510569ba9d1@googlegroups.com>
 <lf5a87ln8k9.fsf@ling.helsinki.fi>
 <1d352948-9029-4b86-b2f1-2b52608109ea@googlegroups.com>
 <616ebaec-f140-491c-897e-f2c4b8368d28@googlegroups.com>
 <IboIA.298355$0L.88195@fx12.am4>
Message-ID: <58f2dc43$0$1583$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>

On Sat, 15 Apr 2017 10:17 pm, bartc wrote:

> On 15/04/2017 03:35, Rick Johnson wrote:
>> On Wednesday, April 12, 2017 at 8:44:30 AM UTC-5, bart... at gmail.com
>> wrote:
> 
>> At a minimum, every language should offer
>> the following four loop-forms (using Python semantics):
>>
>>     while CONDITION:
>>         doSomething()
>>
>>     for VALUE in COLLECTION:
>>         doSomething(value)
>>
>>     loop(N):
>>         doSomething()
>>
>>     loop(N) as i:
>>        doSomething(i)


What an extravagant, unnecessary waste of syntax. The last two just
duplicate the functionality of the second. AND Rick has forgotten about the
do...while form that executes the block at least once.

I've used, and to be honest really enjoyed using, a language with multiple
loop syntax like this. I can see some advantage in offering specialist
English-like loops in a programming language for non-programmers and
amateurs. But having a plethora of forms for what is essentially the same
thing is not so helpful for more skilled programmers who are more
comfortable with composing code rather than memorising fixed statements.


    repeat forever:
        ...


is no more expressive than

    while True:
        ...


since they're both just the same thing. You can mechanically and trivially
translate one to the other with no intelligence needed. So it becomes a
mere matter of personal taste as to which you prefer.


> Yes, I'm constantly surprised at this, as such syntax has a very low
> cost (in my last compiler, supporting 'while' for example only added 30
> lines to the project).

That's the advantage of writing your own private language and having no
users except for yourself. You get to cut corners. Python has tens of
thousands of users, and doesn't have that luxury.

For language developers with responsibilities to users, the job doesn't stop
at just implementing the feature in the language. It also needs to be
tested and documented.

As a general rule of thumb, every line of production code should expect to
add at least ten lines of test code (unit tests, regression tests,
integration tests, functional tests, doc tests, etc). So for your "30
lines" feature, that adds 300 lines of tests, and probably another page or
two of documentation:

- describing the various syntax forms;
- explaining how they differ;
- tutorials for beginners showing each form;

plus the on-going burden for every single user of the language, for ever, in
having to decide which form they need to use in any specific circumstance.

The more choices you offer, the harder that decision becomes:

- numeric Pascal or C-style loop
- foreach style loop
- repeat while condition (test at start)
- repeat until condition (test at start)
- do ... while condition (test at end)
- do ... until condition (test at end)
- repeat forever


I don't remember the language, but I remember seeing one generalisation of
the repeat/do loop that puts the test in the middle, rather than at the
start or end of the loop. If I remember it was something like:

DO
    setup code  # executed once only
REPEAT
    loop body  # before the test
WHILE condition  # test
    loop body  # after the test

thus combining both the 

    repeat while condition:
        ...

and

    do:
        ...
    until condition


styles of looping in one handy syntax.


> Of course, it's possible to overdo it; if you look at Lisp, you'll lose
> yourself in the myriad looping options.

"Myriad"? As I understand it, Lisp offers just *one* more loop construct
than the number you agree is the "minimum" needed: five.

loop
loop for
do
dotimes
dolist


https://www.tutorialspoint.com/lisp/lisp_loops.htm



> But very common requirements are endless loops, and repeat N times
> without needing an explicit counter. 

If by "very common" you mean "occasionally", I agree.


> The former /can/ be easily written 
> as:
> 
>      while 1:
>          body
> 
> but it's more psychological; I don't want to use an idiom to denote an
> endless loop, I want to be able to express it directly!

"Express it directly" is an idiom, and "while True" is just as direct
as "repeat forever".


> Python's byte-code does at least optimise out the check that '1' is
> true, but that's not what the reader sees, which is 'loop while 1 is
> true'. And one day it will be:
> 
>      while l:
>          body
> 
> that can be mistaken for that common idiom.

The problem there is not the loop, but the foolish use of lowercase l as a
variable name. It is simply poor programming practice to use easily
confused names, and the problem here is not the use of `while`.

No more than it is the use of `while` that makes this code bad:

while O000IlI1III11IIII1IllOO:
    something()
    O000IlI1III11I1II1IllOO = False
    print(O00OIlI1III11IIII1IllOO)


Given:

    mylist.append(l)
    x += l
    if l: ...

do you also conclude that the problem lies with append, += and `if` ?

 

-- 
Steve
?Cheer up,? they said, ?things could be worse.? So I cheered up, and sure
enough, things got worse.



From greg.ewing at canterbury.ac.nz  Sun Apr 16 00:19:45 2017
From: greg.ewing at canterbury.ac.nz (Gregory Ewing)
Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2017 16:19:45 +1200
Subject: super() is super [was Re: Calling dunder methods manually]
In-Reply-To: <58f2bc3b$0$1591$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
References: <58ef0cd3$0$1501$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <ocn7nn$3cq$1@blaine.gmane.org>
 <mailman.128.1492066889.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <5190e78b-972a-4678-8ee0-5d76d7452ab0@googlegroups.com>
 <58f2bc3b$0$1591$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
Message-ID: <elg9n3Fdt13U1@mid.individual.net>

Steve D'Aprano wrote:
> But for the simple cases, using super() in Python 3 couldn't be easier.

The only "simple" use of super() is in the single inheritance
case. But that's also the case where it gains you the least
over an explicit inherited method call.

> If you have multiple inheritance, and don't use super(), then your code is
> buggy, whether you have realised it or not.
> 
> Manually calling your parent class is only acceptable if you can absolutely
> guarantee that your class, all its parent classes, and all its subclasses
> will ONLY use single inheritance.

I don't agree with that at all. It's quite possible to write
code that uses multiple inheritance, doesn't use super() and
works perfectly correctly.

Someone else might use my class in an inheritance network in
a way that results in misbehaviour, but if it happens, *they*
wrote that bug, not me.

You could argue that I *should* write my code so that anyone
can mix it with anything in any way without having to think
about the consequences, but that sounds more like a moral
judgement than a technical argument.

-- 
Greg


From steve+python at pearwood.info  Sun Apr 16 00:27:28 2017
From: steve+python at pearwood.info (Steve D'Aprano)
Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2017 14:27:28 +1000
Subject: Static typing [was Re: Python and the need for speed]
References: <768f9a44-5d90-4756-8a99-821253a491f8@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.5.1491710256.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <58e9e519$0$1528$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <mailman.9.1491728745.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <58ec9192$0$1602$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <oci97l$10u4$1@gioia.aioe.org>
 <58eceea2$0$1615$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <CAE6NSRD=xU_mNECNBU2w92Br=vgHJJVqSruGFrPB=vrbpkj0Nw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPjBxg_49OD_CNXUAHKjxYsUiLab4s_fCs_Ast3LyymB82zTCA@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.68.1491956914.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <4277c149-e136-4d33-91d5-d011df9149f1@googlegroups.com>
 <58edcdd2$0$1501$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <fdb4a93a-688e-4a3f-bbc3-0df3ee1d2ac7@googlegroups.com>
 <b003e7c4-4bc4-4478-b793-5f43a4360b55@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <58f2f2b1$0$1599$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>

On Sat, 15 Apr 2017 11:55 am, Rick Johnson wrote:

> apparently, the py-devs believe we
> only deserve type declarations that do nothing to speed up
> code execution (aka: type-hints), instead of type
> declarations that could actually speed up the code. Go
> figure!
> 
> I'm not a fan of forced static typing, but i am a fan of
> optional static typing.

Are you aware that optional static typing CANNOT be used for optimization?

Since it is *optional*, it is only a hint, not a fact. You can tell the
compiler that you believe that n will be an int, but it's not guaranteed.
As the Dude says, the type hint is 

    that's, like, only your opinion man

and the compiler cannot trust it. It must still guard the operation with a
runtime check that n actually is an int, and so you lose most or all of the
benefit of telling the compiler that it's an int.

There are clever Just In Time compiler tricks that can optimize the code,
which is what Psycho did and PyPy still does, but they don't need type
hints. Type hints are superfluous to a JIT compiler, since it already knows
the runtime type information. But JIT compilers have their limitations,
like the necessity of warm up time, increased complexity, and much heavier
memory requirements.

If you want to use type hints for the purposes of compile-time
optimizations, then typing must be compulsory and enforced by the compiler.
No longer optional hints, but mandatory statements of indisputable fact.

(That doesn't necessarily mean that you have to use type declarations, like
in C, Pascal and Java. A good modern compiler can infer types, like in ML
and Haskell.)

Python's gradual typing is not about optimization, it is about testing
program correctness and helping to find bugs at compile time*. As such, the
fact that type hints are optional and "only your opinion" doesn't matter.
The promise made by the type checker is:

    IF what you say is true (the type hints are correct)
    THEN this code will be sound

(or alternatively, it's unsound because you have a type mismatch, and get a
compile-time error). As a fallback, you still have the runtime dynamic type
checks.

Unit and functional tests are great, and necessary. Just because your code
compiles in C, Java or Pascal doesn't mean that it is correct. You still
have to run the code and test that it does what you expect.

"It compiles! Quick, ship it!" -- attributed to Microsoft developers

Nevertheless, the problem with testing is that it can only prove the
presence of bugs, not their absence. A test that fails proves that your
code has at least one bug. A test that passes doesn't prove that there are
no bugs.

Static type checking helps to shrink the gap between "all of my tests pass,
so there are no known bugs" and "there are no unknown bugs". And that's an
important and powerful tool, especially for large and complex programs.

Python's type-hints are for writing correct code, not fast code. I find it
amusing when people argue that Python's type hints are pointless or
useless. Do they realise they're effectively arguing that correct, bug-free
code is pointless?

"Your code is buggy. It calculates the wrong result."

"Maybe so, but look how fast it does it!"




-- 
Steve
?Cheer up,? they said, ?things could be worse.? So I cheered up, and sure
enough, things got worse.



From mikhailwas at gmail.com  Sun Apr 16 03:21:12 2017
From: mikhailwas at gmail.com (Mikhail V)
Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2017 09:21:12 +0200
Subject: "Goto" statement in Python
In-Reply-To: <58f0299c$0$1620$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
References: <wkJHA.687076$nT1.272081@fx44.am4>
 <CAPTjJmpUVY00qRTG2PkzeB7K2UcnYbKggTYm0Hj7ijTC9xQzvg@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.145.1492094128.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <vgMHA.892496$3B6.564039@fx40.am4>
 <58f0299c$0$1620$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
Message-ID: <CAE6NSRBbqRrgQxGCET9T89cE0biyn2qFaR1tXQubQ+T6GPnTNA@mail.gmail.com>

On 14 April 2017 at 03:44, Steve D'Aprano <steve+python at pearwood.info> wrote:
> On Fri, 14 Apr 2017 12:52 am, bartc wrote:
>
>> I know this isn't the Python need-for-speed thread, but this is a
>> classic example where the lack of one simple feature leads to using
>> slower, more cumbersome ones.
>
> Dear gods, have I fallen back in time to 1975 again?
>

Everything new is definitely better, right?

> Are there reasonable uses for GOTO? Perhaps. There are semi-structured
> restricted versions of GOTO, like exceptions, break and return, but an
> unrestricted GOTO where you can jump anywhere in the program is a terrible
> feature

Yes I suppose, but I know too little about who restricts or
allows and how. And in python it is allowed to mistype
for example "while True :" in any part of the
.py file, as well as one can accidentally mess up with
indentation.
But indeed, Python has very restricted syntax and it is very good.


> Even that's not enough for some. Donald Knuth, who supports the use of GOTO
> under some circumstances, maintains that any program using GOTOs should
> have the invariant that its flow chart can be drawn with all forward
> branches on the left, all backward branches on the right, and no branches
> crossing each other.

I am in the category "I just want to express some
algorithm and don't want to learn every year new concepts".
I tend to think that extremely restricted syntax, in the sence
of having only few flow control instructions actually helps with
readability, despite I have never seriously used other languages
than python so I cannot judge GOTO specifically.

But that comes to many other aspects, most of the time
I just want my code look consistent and readable
and this is more representational problem.
And I suppose that with Python, what bothers
me is  zig-zags of indentation.

Now regardless of Python :
if I would have, say 2 forms of GOTO,
ie direct GOTO and e.g. 'loop' ,

an improvised pseudocode example:

"""
in_menu = true

SUB -------------------------
         init some
         draw thing

         # if skip_scan : goto .x

loop
|        K=readkey()
|        if  K[shift] :
|            goto .1
|        if  K[m] :
|            in_menu = false
|            goto .1
|        if  K[o] :
|            in_menu = false
|.1      make something
|        make something
|        if (in_menu = false) : goto .x
\__

.x
         clean_up something
         clean_up something

"""

or a classic:

x, y = 0
xx, yy = 300

loop
|loop
||
||       x = x + 1
||       if (x+y) > 100 : goto .x
||       if (x>xx) : goto .1
|\__
|
|.1
|        y = y + 1
|        if (x>xx) : goto .x
\__

.x

"""

So with 'else'-less condition statement, goto, and loop
construct I would have simpler representation simply because
I would have no 'else', for(), etc... And I'd avoid nested loops as much
as i can.
So less indentation zig-zags and plain "column" code look everywhere,
I think that is what many programmers are looking for.
Just from the reader's POV: having implicit labels for exiting loop
is IMO not worse than additional keywords e.g. "break"...
At least I would not be so fast to judge that.
It is just the question, *how would I input and edit such code*
to avoids typos and renaming labels.


[...]
>> (** Although I find code full of class definitions, one-liners, decorators
>> and all the other esoterics, incomprehensive. I'm sure I'm not the only
>> one, so perhaps readability isn't too much of a priority either.)

>Classes and decorators are not esoteric. You sound like an old man who
>complains about this new-fangled "telephone", and how things were so much
>better when we had messenger boys to deliver messages anywhere in the city.

Seriously, when I open some random .py file from the web
and everywhere see class, class, class, kilometers of indentation...
Hair around one-liners all over the files.
And hedgehogs of try: except blocks, well, this is
straining, and trying to learn why I need
some of those, multiplies the pain.
So your comment applies to me too and I must sound
like an old stupid man I suppose?
And I don't like new "telephones" - they are heavy, need charge
every 2 day, does not fit in the hand well, and just to repat
the last call I need to swipe the stupid touch screen.


Mikhail


From vincent.vande.vyvre at telenet.be  Sun Apr 16 04:56:15 2017
From: vincent.vande.vyvre at telenet.be (Vincent Vande Vyvre)
Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2017 10:56:15 +0200
Subject: Python 3.5+ Arrow keys and others in the console
Message-ID: <268903ad-064b-922f-b946-be0d8ced23ad@telenet.be>

Hi,

I'm using Python 3.5 and 3.6 in venv and I see a strange behaviour in 
the interactive interpreter.

The arrow keys can't be used to move the cursor into the current line of 
code or to rewrite the last lines.

With the 3.5 I can use the backspace and erase the code but not in 3.6

Python 3.5.2 (default, Dec 19 2016, 11:46:33)
[GCC 4.8.4] on linux
Type "help", "copyright", "credits" or "license" for more information.
 >>> f = "kjhfgt"^[[D            # Left Arrow Key
 >>> ^[[A                        # Up Arrow Key


Python 3.6.1 (default, Apr 12 2017, 11:39:17)
[GCC 4.8.4] on linux
Type "help", "copyright", "credits" or "license" for more information.
 >>> f = "lkjgh"
 >>> ^[[A^[[B                    # Up Arrow Key and Backspace Key
   File "<stdin>", line 1

     ^
SyntaxError: invalid syntax
 >>>


Am I the only one with this ?

Vincent



From rosuav at gmail.com  Sun Apr 16 05:08:40 2017
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2017 19:08:40 +1000
Subject: "Goto" statement in Python
In-Reply-To: <CAE6NSRBbqRrgQxGCET9T89cE0biyn2qFaR1tXQubQ+T6GPnTNA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <wkJHA.687076$nT1.272081@fx44.am4>
 <CAPTjJmpUVY00qRTG2PkzeB7K2UcnYbKggTYm0Hj7ijTC9xQzvg@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.145.1492094128.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <vgMHA.892496$3B6.564039@fx40.am4>
 <58f0299c$0$1620$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <CAE6NSRBbqRrgQxGCET9T89cE0biyn2qFaR1tXQubQ+T6GPnTNA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmo0zk+-WC-5JLpHPmEDx=Se++VYzcOy8etvOiK0A5UZ4g@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Apr 16, 2017 at 5:21 PM, Mikhail V <mikhailwas at gmail.com> wrote:
> I am in the category "I just want to express some
> algorithm and don't want to learn every year new concepts".
> I tend to think that extremely restricted syntax, in the sence
> of having only few flow control instructions actually helps with
> readability, despite I have never seriously used other languages
> than python so I cannot judge GOTO specifically.
> [...]
> Seriously, when I open some random .py file from the web
> and everywhere see class, class, class, kilometers of indentation...
> Hair around one-liners all over the files.
> And hedgehogs of try: except blocks, well, this is
> straining, and trying to learn why I need
> some of those, multiplies the pain.
> So your comment applies to me too and I must sound
> like an old stupid man I suppose?

You sound more like someone who's never grown beyond a one-man
project. Most of us understand code primarily as a tool for
communicating between humans, and secondarily for the computer to
execute. And you most definitely sound like someone who thinks in the
concrete, not in the abstract. These constructs are to express human
concepts, even though they take a lot of low-level tools to make them
up.

ChrisA


From alister.ware at ntlworld.com  Sun Apr 16 05:48:15 2017
From: alister.ware at ntlworld.com (alister)
Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2017 09:48:15 GMT
Subject: Static typing [was Re: Python and the need for speed]
References: <768f9a44-5d90-4756-8a99-821253a491f8@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.5.1491710256.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <58e9e519$0$1528$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <mailman.9.1491728745.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <58ec9192$0$1602$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <oci97l$10u4$1@gioia.aioe.org>
 <58eceea2$0$1615$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <CAE6NSRD=xU_mNECNBU2w92Br=vgHJJVqSruGFrPB=vrbpkj0Nw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPjBxg_49OD_CNXUAHKjxYsUiLab4s_fCs_Ast3LyymB82zTCA@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.68.1491956914.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <4277c149-e136-4d33-91d5-d011df9149f1@googlegroups.com>
 <58edcdd2$0$1501$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <fdb4a93a-688e-4a3f-bbc3-0df3ee1d2ac7@googlegroups.com>
 <b003e7c4-4bc4-4478-b793-5f43a4360b55@googlegroups.com>
 <58f2f2b1$0$1599$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
Message-ID: <z5HIA.680691$0k4.149951@fx37.am4>

On Sun, 16 Apr 2017 14:27:28 +1000, Steve D'Aprano wrote:

> On Sat, 15 Apr 2017 11:55 am, Rick Johnson wrote:
> 
>> apparently, the py-devs believe we only deserve type declarations that
>> do nothing to speed up code execution (aka: type-hints), instead of
>> type declarations that could actually speed up the code. Go figure!
>> 
>> I'm not a fan of forced static typing, but i am a fan of optional
>> static typing.
> 
> Are you aware that optional static typing CANNOT be used for
> optimization?
> 
> Since it is *optional*, it is only a hint, not a fact. You can tell the
> compiler that you believe that n will be an int, but it's not
> guaranteed. As the Dude says, the type hint is
> 
>     that's, like, only your opinion man
> 
> and the compiler cannot trust it. It must still guard the operation with
> a runtime check that n actually is an int, and so you lose most or all
> of the benefit of telling the compiler that it's an int.
> 
> There are clever Just In Time compiler tricks that can optimize the
> code, which is what Psycho did and PyPy still does, but they don't need
> type hints. Type hints are superfluous to a JIT compiler, since it
> already knows the runtime type information. But JIT compilers have their
> limitations, like the necessity of warm up time, increased complexity,
> and much heavier memory requirements.
> 
> If you want to use type hints for the purposes of compile-time
> optimizations, then typing must be compulsory and enforced by the
> compiler.
> No longer optional hints, but mandatory statements of indisputable fact.
> 
> (That doesn't necessarily mean that you have to use type declarations,
> like in C, Pascal and Java. A good modern compiler can infer types, like
> in ML and Haskell.)
> 
> Python's gradual typing is not about optimization, it is about testing
> program correctness and helping to find bugs at compile time*. As such,
> the fact that type hints are optional and "only your opinion" doesn't
> matter. The promise made by the type checker is:
> 
>     IF what you say is true (the type hints are correct)
>     THEN this code will be sound
> 
> (or alternatively, it's unsound because you have a type mismatch, and
> get a compile-time error). As a fallback, you still have the runtime
> dynamic type checks.
> 
> Unit and functional tests are great, and necessary. Just because your
> code compiles in C, Java or Pascal doesn't mean that it is correct. You
> still have to run the code and test that it does what you expect.
> 
> "It compiles! Quick, ship it!" -- attributed to Microsoft developers
> 
> Nevertheless, the problem with testing is that it can only prove the
> presence of bugs, not their absence. A test that fails proves that your
> code has at least one bug. A test that passes doesn't prove that there
> are no bugs.
> 
> Static type checking helps to shrink the gap between "all of my tests
> pass,
> so there are no known bugs" and "there are no unknown bugs". And that's
> an important and powerful tool, especially for large and complex
> programs.
> 
> Python's type-hints are for writing correct code, not fast code. I find
> it amusing when people argue that Python's type hints are pointless or
> useless. Do they realise they're effectively arguing that correct,
> bug-free code is pointless?
> 
> "Your code is buggy. It calculates the wrong result."
> 
> "Maybe so, but look how fast it does it!"

I think you have (deliberately?) miss understood RR
by optional Static typing I think he means you don't have to use it as is 
in suing static types is optional)  but when you define a variable as 
static then its type is fixed, not simply a hint.

whether or not this could increase code deficiency or complicate the 
compiler further I have no idea




-- 
Fay: The British police force used to be run by men of integrity.
Truscott: That is a mistake which has been rectified.
		-- Joe Orton, "Loot"


From alister.ware at ntlworld.com  Sun Apr 16 05:50:10 2017
From: alister.ware at ntlworld.com (alister)
Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2017 09:50:10 GMT
Subject: Static typing [was Re: Python and the need for speed]
References: <768f9a44-5d90-4756-8a99-821253a491f8@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.5.1491710256.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <58e9e519$0$1528$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <mailman.9.1491728745.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <58ec9192$0$1602$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <oci97l$10u4$1@gioia.aioe.org>
 <58eceea2$0$1615$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
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Message-ID: <m7HIA.680692$0k4.385769@fx37.am4>

On Sun, 16 Apr 2017 09:48:15 +0000, alister wrote:

> On Sun, 16 Apr 2017 14:27:28 +1000, Steve D'Aprano wrote:
> 
>> On Sat, 15 Apr 2017 11:55 am, Rick Johnson wrote:
>> 
>>> apparently, the py-devs believe we only deserve type declarations that
>>> do nothing to speed up code execution (aka: type-hints), instead of
>>> type declarations that could actually speed up the code. Go figure!
>>> 
>>> I'm not a fan of forced static typing, but i am a fan of optional
>>> static typing.
>> 
>> Are you aware that optional static typing CANNOT be used for
>> optimization?
>> 
>> Since it is *optional*, it is only a hint, not a fact. You can tell the
>> compiler that you believe that n will be an int, but it's not
>> guaranteed. As the Dude says, the type hint is
>> 
>>     that's, like, only your opinion man
>> 
>> and the compiler cannot trust it. It must still guard the operation
>> with a runtime check that n actually is an int, and so you lose most or
>> all of the benefit of telling the compiler that it's an int.
>> 
>> There are clever Just In Time compiler tricks that can optimize the
>> code, which is what Psycho did and PyPy still does, but they don't need
>> type hints. Type hints are superfluous to a JIT compiler, since it
>> already knows the runtime type information. But JIT compilers have
>> their limitations, like the necessity of warm up time, increased
>> complexity, and much heavier memory requirements.
>> 
>> If you want to use type hints for the purposes of compile-time
>> optimizations, then typing must be compulsory and enforced by the
>> compiler.
>> No longer optional hints, but mandatory statements of indisputable
>> fact.
>> 
>> (That doesn't necessarily mean that you have to use type declarations,
>> like in C, Pascal and Java. A good modern compiler can infer types,
>> like in ML and Haskell.)
>> 
>> Python's gradual typing is not about optimization, it is about testing
>> program correctness and helping to find bugs at compile time*. As such,
>> the fact that type hints are optional and "only your opinion" doesn't
>> matter. The promise made by the type checker is:
>> 
>>     IF what you say is true (the type hints are correct)
>>     THEN this code will be sound
>> 
>> (or alternatively, it's unsound because you have a type mismatch, and
>> get a compile-time error). As a fallback, you still have the runtime
>> dynamic type checks.
>> 
>> Unit and functional tests are great, and necessary. Just because your
>> code compiles in C, Java or Pascal doesn't mean that it is correct. You
>> still have to run the code and test that it does what you expect.
>> 
>> "It compiles! Quick, ship it!" -- attributed to Microsoft developers
>> 
>> Nevertheless, the problem with testing is that it can only prove the
>> presence of bugs, not their absence. A test that fails proves that your
>> code has at least one bug. A test that passes doesn't prove that there
>> are no bugs.
>> 
>> Static type checking helps to shrink the gap between "all of my tests
>> pass,
>> so there are no known bugs" and "there are no unknown bugs". And that's
>> an important and powerful tool, especially for large and complex
>> programs.
>> 
>> Python's type-hints are for writing correct code, not fast code. I find
>> it amusing when people argue that Python's type hints are pointless or
>> useless. Do they realise they're effectively arguing that correct,
>> bug-free code is pointless?
>> 
>> "Your code is buggy. It calculates the wrong result."
>> 
>> "Maybe so, but look how fast it does it!"
> 
> I think you have (deliberately?) miss understood RR by optional Static
> typing I think he means you don't have to use it as is in suing static
> types is optional)  but when you define a variable as static then its
> type is fixed, not simply a hint.
> 
> whether or not this could increase code deficiency or complicate the
> compiler further I have no idea

Actually isn't this a feature of cython?



-- 
Armadillo:
	To provide weapons to a Spanish pickle.


From bc at freeuk.com  Sun Apr 16 06:55:57 2017
From: bc at freeuk.com (bartc)
Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2017 11:55:57 +0100
Subject: Static typing [was Re: Python and the need for speed]
In-Reply-To: <58f2f2b1$0$1599$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
References: <768f9a44-5d90-4756-8a99-821253a491f8@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.5.1491710256.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <58e9e519$0$1528$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <mailman.9.1491728745.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <58ec9192$0$1602$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <oci97l$10u4$1@gioia.aioe.org>
 <58eceea2$0$1615$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <CAE6NSRD=xU_mNECNBU2w92Br=vgHJJVqSruGFrPB=vrbpkj0Nw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPjBxg_49OD_CNXUAHKjxYsUiLab4s_fCs_Ast3LyymB82zTCA@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.68.1491956914.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <4277c149-e136-4d33-91d5-d011df9149f1@googlegroups.com>
 <58edcdd2$0$1501$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <fdb4a93a-688e-4a3f-bbc3-0df3ee1d2ac7@googlegroups.com>
 <b003e7c4-4bc4-4478-b793-5f43a4360b55@googlegroups.com>
 <58f2f2b1$0$1599$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
Message-ID: <15IIA.433240$UY3.424770@fx11.am4>

On 16/04/2017 05:27, Steve D'Aprano wrote:
> On Sat, 15 Apr 2017 11:55 am, Rick Johnson wrote:
>
>> apparently, the py-devs believe we
>> only deserve type declarations that do nothing to speed up
>> code execution (aka: type-hints), instead of type
>> declarations that could actually speed up the code. Go
>> figure!
>>
>> I'm not a fan of forced static typing, but i am a fan of
>> optional static typing.
>
> Are you aware that optional static typing CANNOT be used for optimization?
>
> Since it is *optional*, it is only a hint, not a fact. You can tell the
> compiler that you believe that n will be an int, but it's not guaranteed.

No, Rick distinguished between hints, and actual declarations. It 
doesn't matter if the latter are optional.

I played around with this at one time. All variables were of type 
'variant', unless they had an explicit type declaration.

But it got complicated. I decided to keep the dynamic language pure, as 
after all I had a statically compiled language with exactly the same 
syntax if I needed it faster!

Examples A and B here: https://pastebin.com/D89zP3LF

Example C of the same silly program in Python:

def add(a,b):
     return a+b

def testfn():
     sum=a=b=0
     for i in range(100000000):
         sum += add(a,b)
         a += 1
         b += 2

     print (a,b,sum)

testfn()


Timings:

A (Pure HLL**)          13   seconds      (dynamic/interpreted)
A (With ASM module)      3
A (With ASM module)      2                (older version; hmmm...)

B (my compiler)          0.5              (static/compiled)
B (via C/gcc-O3)         0.14

C (Python 2)           163
C (Python 2/xrange)     30
C (Python 3)            38
C (Pypy)                 5

(Python 2 with 'range' locked up my machine for nearly 3 minutes because 
it presumably exhausted the 4GB memory just executing a simple loop. 
Have I mentioned that building a massive list just to execute 'for' was 
a stupid idea?)

The pypy timing is not bad, however it is misleading: you can't for 
example deduce the execution time of one iteration by dividing by 100 
million, as you can with the others (gcc-O3 excepted as I've no idea 
what it does). You only get that timing if you actually wanted 100 
million iterations.

> (That doesn't necessarily mean that you have to use type declarations, like
> in C, Pascal and Java. A good modern compiler can infer types, like in ML
> and Haskell.)

Yes a good, but more sophisticated, compiler. Unlike mine!

(** The pure HLL timing might be reduced to ~ 9 seconds using 
'label-pointers' for dispatching, but this limited portability when 
converted to C code, as not all C compilers support them. But it doesn't 
matter as I can use the ASM version for speed.

I believe CPython also makes use of label-pointers when compiled with 
gcc - as happens on Linux - but not when compiled with MSVC, so that 
CPython on Windows is a little slower for that reason. I don't know if 
this is still the case.

Those Python timings were on Windows...)

-- 
bartc


From ben.usenet at bsb.me.uk  Sun Apr 16 07:02:51 2017
From: ben.usenet at bsb.me.uk (Ben Bacarisse)
Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2017 12:02:51 +0100
Subject: Looping [was Re: Python and the need for speed]
References: <768f9a44-5d90-4756-8a99-821253a491f8@googlegroups.com>
 <58e9e519$0$1528$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <mailman.9.1491728745.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <58ec9192$0$1602$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <oci97l$10u4$1@gioia.aioe.org>
 <58eceea2$0$1615$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <CAE6NSRD=xU_mNECNBU2w92Br=vgHJJVqSruGFrPB=vrbpkj0Nw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPjBxg_49OD_CNXUAHKjxYsUiLab4s_fCs_Ast3LyymB82zTCA@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.68.1491956914.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <4277c149-e136-4d33-91d5-d011df9149f1@googlegroups.com>
 <58edcdd2$0$1501$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <fdb4a93a-688e-4a3f-bbc3-0df3ee1d2ac7@googlegroups.com>
 <54f1685d-1d2d-44b5-869e-a510569ba9d1@googlegroups.com>
 <lf5a87ln8k9.fsf@ling.helsinki.fi>
 <1d352948-9029-4b86-b2f1-2b52608109ea@googlegroups.com>
 <616ebaec-f140-491c-897e-f2c4b8368d28@googlegroups.com>
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 <58f2dc43$0$1583$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
Message-ID: <87zifgobs4.fsf@bsb.me.uk>

Steve D'Aprano <steve+python at pearwood.info> writes:

<snip>
> I don't remember the language, but I remember seeing one generalisation of
> the repeat/do loop that puts the test in the middle, rather than at the
> start or end of the loop. If I remember it was something like:
>
> DO
>     setup code  # executed once only
> REPEAT
>     loop body  # before the test
> WHILE condition  # test
>     loop body  # after the test
>
> thus combining both the 
>
>     repeat while condition:
>         ...
>
> and
>
>     do:
>         ...
>     until condition
>
> styles of looping in one handy syntax.

Was the setup code in the loop because that seems unnecessary (I know
this is from memory)?  I have a recollection of using something like

  do
      code before test
    while cond
      code after test
  od

which has much the same effect.  Algol 68 can also do this because the
while condition can be a block (any expression can be a block in A68).
The result was not to everyone's taste.

> On Sat, 15 Apr 2017 10:17 pm, bartc wrote:
<snip>
>> Of course, it's possible to overdo it; if you look at Lisp, you'll lose
>> yourself in the myriad looping options.
>
> "Myriad"? As I understand it, Lisp offers just *one* more loop construct
> than the number you agree is the "minimum" needed: five.
>
> loop
> loop for
> do
> dotimes
> dolist

I suppose it depends on how you count, but BartC did talk about
options.  Here are some of the loop options in Common Lisp:

  (loop x with ...)
  (loop for i in (...) by ...)
  (loop for i downfrom 10 above x by -2 ...)
  (loop for x = ... then (f x) ...)
  (loop across ...)
  (loop for s being symbols of ...)
  (loop for s being hash-keys in ... using ...)

That's just the start.  Then you can add "doing", "if" "when", "unless",
"return", "collect", "sum[ming]", "maximizing" and others.  Or, if you
need them, you can have "initially", "finally", "repeat", "while",
"until", "always", "never" or "thereis" parts, all the time losing (some
of) those parts you don't need.

<snip>
-- 
Ben.


From barry at barrys-emacs.org  Sun Apr 16 07:41:26 2017
From: barry at barrys-emacs.org (Barry Scott)
Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2017 12:41:26 +0100
Subject: Announcing SCM Workbench 0.8.6 for Git, Mercurial and Subversion
Message-ID: <C7AA8B97-1418-4537-85CF-AE635E2EC5FA@barrys-emacs.org>

SCM Workbench features

	? Support Subversion (svn), Mercurial (hg) and Git projects.
	? Easy to learn and use
	? Builtin User Guide describes the operation and features of the application.
	? Add project wizard can scan for all your existing projects.
	? All subversion client operations in a GUI
	? Many Git client operations in a GUI
	? GUI git rebase
	? Some mercurial (hg) client operations in a GUI
	? Enhanced operations (subversion rename of modified files etc)
	? Support software development workflow
	? Builtin GUI diff showing line and character diffs
	? Ability to diff between revisions in a files history
	? Runs on Windows, Mac OS X and Unix platforms

Please visit http://scm-workbench.barrys-emacs.org/ for downloads, git source, user guide and further information on SCM Workbench.

New in 0.8.6
	? Dialog feedback has been refactored to give a cleaner user experience in the Add project wizard.
	? Add basic git stash support.
	? Update to use python3.6 and latest PyQt5.
	? Fixes for minor issues found by pylint.
	? Improvements to build tooling.

Barry



From bc at freeuk.com  Sun Apr 16 08:06:18 2017
From: bc at freeuk.com (bartc)
Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2017 13:06:18 +0100
Subject: Looping [was Re: Python and the need for speed]
In-Reply-To: <58f2dc43$0$1583$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
References: <768f9a44-5d90-4756-8a99-821253a491f8@googlegroups.com>
 <58e9e519$0$1528$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <mailman.9.1491728745.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <58ec9192$0$1602$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <oci97l$10u4$1@gioia.aioe.org>
 <58eceea2$0$1615$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <CAE6NSRD=xU_mNECNBU2w92Br=vgHJJVqSruGFrPB=vrbpkj0Nw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPjBxg_49OD_CNXUAHKjxYsUiLab4s_fCs_Ast3LyymB82zTCA@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.68.1491956914.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <4277c149-e136-4d33-91d5-d011df9149f1@googlegroups.com>
 <58edcdd2$0$1501$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <fdb4a93a-688e-4a3f-bbc3-0df3ee1d2ac7@googlegroups.com>
 <54f1685d-1d2d-44b5-869e-a510569ba9d1@googlegroups.com>
 <lf5a87ln8k9.fsf@ling.helsinki.fi>
 <1d352948-9029-4b86-b2f1-2b52608109ea@googlegroups.com>
 <616ebaec-f140-491c-897e-f2c4b8368d28@googlegroups.com>
 <IboIA.298355$0L.88195@fx12.am4>
 <58f2dc43$0$1583$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
Message-ID: <_6JIA.1041096$Pm3.778529@fx42.am4>

On 16/04/2017 03:51, Steve D'Aprano wrote:
> On Sat, 15 Apr 2017 10:17 pm, bartc wrote:

>> Yes, I'm constantly surprised at this, as such syntax has a very low
>> cost (in my last compiler, supporting 'while' for example only added 30
>> lines to the project).
>
> That's the advantage of writing your own private language and having no
> users except for yourself. You get to cut corners. Python has tens of
> thousands of users, and doesn't have that luxury.

Here are the lines of code in my C compiler which are necessary to 
support 'while': https://pastebin.com/BYFV7EWr

(45 lines shown, but there are exactly 30 Loc if blanks are excluded.)

I'd be interested in knowing why implementing While in Python would need 
significantly more. (The 30 Loc figure is with support for loops /in 
general/ already in place, and is for /adding/ a new loop statement, in 
this case 'while')

> For language developers with responsibilities to users, the job doesn't stop
> at just implementing the feature in the language. It also needs to be
> tested and documented.
>
> As a general rule of thumb, every line of production code should expect to
> add at least ten lines of test code (unit tests, regression tests,
> integration tests, functional tests, doc tests, etc). So for your "30
> lines" feature, that adds 300 lines of tests, and probably another page or
> two of documentation:

No, we're talking about a loop. It must be just about the simplest thing 
to implement in a language (compared with a type system, or code 
generation).

BTW supporting a dedicated endless loop was only about 20 lines in 
another project. Believe me, it is /nothing/. I wish other aspects were 
just as trivial. It didn't even need a dedicated keyword.

 > - describing the various syntax forms;
 > - explaining how they differ;
 > - tutorials for beginners showing each form;

And you don't have to explain how an endless loop should be written as 
'while True', meanwhile advising against using 'while 1'?

> The more choices you offer, the harder that decision becomes:
>
> - numeric Pascal or C-style loop
> - foreach style loop
> - repeat while condition (test at start)
> - repeat until condition (test at start)
> - do ... while condition (test at end)
> - do ... until condition (test at end)
> - repeat forever

So, how many kinds of sequences do you have in Python?

lists
tuples
namedtuples
arrays
bytearrays
string ?
memoryview

plus all those ordered types. My head is already spinning!

The loops I use are categorised as:

* Endless
* N times
* Until some condition is true
* Iterate over an integer sequence
* Iterate over a set of values of some object

Other languages like to have even more elaborate schemes. That includes 
advanced uses of Python's for loop, were, for example, there are 
multiple loop variables.

I wonder how much testing that took to get it right?

> I don't remember the language, but I remember seeing one generalisation of
> the repeat/do loop that puts the test in the middle, rather than at the
> start or end of the loop. If I remember it was something like:
>
> DO
>     setup code  # executed once only
> REPEAT
>     loop body  # before the test
> WHILE condition  # test
>     loop body  # after the test
>
> thus combining both the
>
>     repeat while condition:
>         ...
>
> and
>
>     do:
>         ...
>     until condition
>
>
> styles of looping in one handy syntax.

Perhaps you misremembered as that looks too unwieldy to be practical. If 
implemented orthogonally, then a loop like this:

   While A Do B End

where both A and B can be any sequence of statements or expressions, 
would allow you to write:

   While a; b; c; d Do e; f; g End

with the test (the value of 'd') effectively in the middle.

>> But very common requirements are endless loops, and repeat N times
>> without needing an explicit counter.
>
> If by "very common" you mean "occasionally", I agree.

Most of my loops start off as endless loops, until I can determine the 
actual terminating condition, and where it best goes. Sometimes they 
stay as endless loops.

(Sometimes, I turn a normal statement into an endless loop with a 'do' 
prefix. This is an unusual feature but I use it quite a bit:

    doswitch nextchar()           # looping version of 'switch'
    when 'A'..'Z' then ....
    else exit                     # ie. break out of loop
    end
)

>> Python's byte-code does at least optimise out the check that '1' is
>> true, but that's not what the reader sees, which is 'loop while 1 is
>> true'. And one day it will be:
>>
>>      while l:
>>          body
>>
>> that can be mistaken for that common idiom.
>
> The problem there is not the loop, but the foolish use of lowercase l as a
> variable name.

Maybe. But if 'while 1' wasn't used, then that's one less thing to 
double-check. (I just looked at a random bunch of Python code; there 
were 25 instances of 'while True:', but 40 of 'while 1:'.)

-- 
bartc


From rustompmody at gmail.com  Sun Apr 16 08:22:19 2017
From: rustompmody at gmail.com (Rustom Mody)
Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2017 05:22:19 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Looping [was Re: Python and the need for speed]
In-Reply-To: <_6JIA.1041096$Pm3.778529@fx42.am4>
References: <768f9a44-5d90-4756-8a99-821253a491f8@googlegroups.com>
 <58e9e519$0$1528$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <mailman.9.1491728745.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <58ec9192$0$1602$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <oci97l$10u4$1@gioia.aioe.org>
 <58eceea2$0$1615$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <CAE6NSRD=xU_mNECNBU2w92Br=vgHJJVqSruGFrPB=vrbpkj0Nw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPjBxg_49OD_CNXUAHKjxYsUiLab4s_fCs_Ast3LyymB82zTCA@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.68.1491956914.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <4277c149-e136-4d33-91d5-d011df9149f1@googlegroups.com>
 <58edcdd2$0$1501$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <fdb4a93a-688e-4a3f-bbc3-0df3ee1d2ac7@googlegroups.com>
 <54f1685d-1d2d-44b5-869e-a510569ba9d1@googlegroups.com>
 <lf5a87ln8k9.fsf@ling.helsinki.fi>
 <1d352948-9029-4b86-b2f1-2b52608109ea@googlegroups.com>
 <616ebaec-f140-491c-897e-f2c4b8368d28@googlegroups.com>
 <IboIA.298355$0L.88195@fx12.am4>
 <58f2dc43$0$1583$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <_6JIA.1041096$Pm3.778529@fx42.am4>
Message-ID: <fe03f274-dab8-4510-8039-03e1c5f82527@googlegroups.com>

On Sunday, April 16, 2017 at 5:36:28 PM UTC+5:30, bartc wrote:
> On 16/04/2017 03:51, Steve D'Aprano wrote:
> > On Sat, 15 Apr 2017 10:17 pm, bartc wrote:
> 
> >> Yes, I'm constantly surprised at this, as such syntax has a very low
> >> cost (in my last compiler, supporting 'while' for example only added 30
> >> lines to the project).
> >
> > That's the advantage of writing your own private language and having no
> > users except for yourself. You get to cut corners. Python has tens of
> > thousands of users, and doesn't have that luxury.
> 
> Here are the lines of code in my C compiler which are necessary to 
> support 'while': https://pastebin.com/BYFV7EWr
> 
> (45 lines shown, but there are exactly 30 Loc if blanks are excluded.)
> 
> I'd be interested in knowing why implementing While in Python would need 
> significantly more. (The 30 Loc figure is with support for loops /in 
> general/ already in place, and is for /adding/ a new loop statement, in 
> this case 'while')

You walk down a mountain path (trail in US-ese?) stopping here and there to
smell a flower or spy a butterfly.
Change to driving down a mountain road ? quiet for the most part ? is it ok
to drive on the wrong side?
Change to an expressway is it ok to change lanes randomly, not maintain speeds
within upper (and lower!) limits?

As others have tried to point out maintaining your own 1-man-language is one thing
Maintaining a language
- used by industry and academia
- Used by FLOSS teams and commercial
- by kids and old-hands
- 1-man projects and large multiperson projects

is quite another

Dont get me wrong: I dont agree with everything about python.  And the current(est)
mess around async (and f-strings?) is (IMHO) going to cost more dearly than people expect...
And we will have to wait another 10 years for that decision...

My point is that you dont seem to have any estimate of the difference in 
momentum between your 'its-just-another-30-lines' language and a million
user base language


From rosuav at gmail.com  Sun Apr 16 08:28:06 2017
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2017 22:28:06 +1000
Subject: Static typing [was Re: Python and the need for speed]
In-Reply-To: <15IIA.433240$UY3.424770@fx11.am4>
References: <768f9a44-5d90-4756-8a99-821253a491f8@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.5.1491710256.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <58e9e519$0$1528$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <mailman.9.1491728745.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <58ec9192$0$1602$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <oci97l$10u4$1@gioia.aioe.org>
 <58eceea2$0$1615$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <CAE6NSRD=xU_mNECNBU2w92Br=vgHJJVqSruGFrPB=vrbpkj0Nw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPjBxg_49OD_CNXUAHKjxYsUiLab4s_fCs_Ast3LyymB82zTCA@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.68.1491956914.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <4277c149-e136-4d33-91d5-d011df9149f1@googlegroups.com>
 <58edcdd2$0$1501$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <fdb4a93a-688e-4a3f-bbc3-0df3ee1d2ac7@googlegroups.com>
 <b003e7c4-4bc4-4478-b793-5f43a4360b55@googlegroups.com>
 <58f2f2b1$0$1599$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <15IIA.433240$UY3.424770@fx11.am4>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmq8sW=RtMng+cKyDLVswh-4zSnEFfXy9WB+it8UMBYzKw@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Apr 16, 2017 at 8:55 PM, bartc <bc at freeuk.com> wrote:
> On 16/04/2017 05:27, Steve D'Aprano wrote:
>>
>> On Sat, 15 Apr 2017 11:55 am, Rick Johnson wrote:
>>
>>> apparently, the py-devs believe we
>>> only deserve type declarations that do nothing to speed up
>>> code execution (aka: type-hints), instead of type
>>> declarations that could actually speed up the code. Go
>>> figure!
>>>
>>> I'm not a fan of forced static typing, but i am a fan of
>>> optional static typing.
>>
>>
>> Are you aware that optional static typing CANNOT be used for optimization?
>>
>> Since it is *optional*, it is only a hint, not a fact. You can tell the
>> compiler that you believe that n will be an int, but it's not guaranteed.
>
>
> No, Rick distinguished between hints, and actual declarations. It doesn't
> matter if the latter are optional.
>
> I played around with this at one time. All variables were of type 'variant',
> unless they had an explicit type declaration.

All of this is ignoring one very important point: subclassing. If I
declare a variable "int", can it or can it not accept a subclass of
int? Hint: neither answer is correct for the general case.

ChrisA


From jorge.conrado at cptec.inpe.br  Sun Apr 16 08:28:26 2017
From: jorge.conrado at cptec.inpe.br (jorge.conrado at cptec.inpe.br)
Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2017 09:28:26 -0300
Subject: write arrays to disk
Message-ID: <448f8498de822ce8d56a982c3e05f07a@cptec.inpe.br>

Hi,

I'm new on Python software. I would like to write on disk arrays in 
binary or ascii format. Can someone please help me?

Thanks,

Conrado


From wolfgang.maier at biologie.uni-freiburg.de  Sun Apr 16 09:19:52 2017
From: wolfgang.maier at biologie.uni-freiburg.de (Wolfgang Maier)
Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2017 15:19:52 +0200
Subject: Python 3.5+ Arrow keys and others in the console
In-Reply-To: <268903ad-064b-922f-b946-be0d8ced23ad@telenet.be>
References: <268903ad-064b-922f-b946-be0d8ced23ad@telenet.be>
Message-ID: <ocvr1i$b0f$1@blaine.gmane.org>

On 16.04.2017 10:56, Vincent Vande Vyvre wrote:
> Hi,
>
> I'm using Python 3.5 and 3.6 in venv and I see a strange behaviour in
> the interactive interpreter.
>
> The arrow keys can't be used to move the cursor into the current line of
> code or to rewrite the last lines.
>
> With the 3.5 I can use the backspace and erase the code but not in 3.6
>
> Python 3.5.2 (default, Dec 19 2016, 11:46:33)
> [GCC 4.8.4] on linux
> Type "help", "copyright", "credits" or "license" for more information.
>>>> f = "kjhfgt"^[[D            # Left Arrow Key
>>>> ^[[A                        # Up Arrow Key
>
>
> Python 3.6.1 (default, Apr 12 2017, 11:39:17)
> [GCC 4.8.4] on linux
> Type "help", "copyright", "credits" or "license" for more information.
>>>> f = "lkjgh"
>>>> ^[[A^[[B                    # Up Arrow Key and Backspace Key
>   File "<stdin>", line 1
>
>     ^
> SyntaxError: invalid syntax
>>>>
>

Make sure you build Python (I guess you did this for 3.6, but are 
probably using your OS Python3.5) with readline. This needs the dev 
version of the readline library installed at build time.
So, step 1 would be to get the library, then rebuild Python3.6 by running:

1) make clean
2) ./configure
3) make

It could be worthwhile checking for other missing optional C libraries 
first though. If you want to make sure you have all of them, follow the 
steps described here:

https://docs.python.org/devguide/setup.html#build-dependencies

Best,
Wolfgang




From bc at freeuk.com  Sun Apr 16 09:57:38 2017
From: bc at freeuk.com (bartc)
Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2017 14:57:38 +0100
Subject: Looping [was Re: Python and the need for speed]
In-Reply-To: <fe03f274-dab8-4510-8039-03e1c5f82527@googlegroups.com>
References: <768f9a44-5d90-4756-8a99-821253a491f8@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.9.1491728745.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <58ec9192$0$1602$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <oci97l$10u4$1@gioia.aioe.org>
 <58eceea2$0$1615$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <CAE6NSRD=xU_mNECNBU2w92Br=vgHJJVqSruGFrPB=vrbpkj0Nw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPjBxg_49OD_CNXUAHKjxYsUiLab4s_fCs_Ast3LyymB82zTCA@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.68.1491956914.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <4277c149-e136-4d33-91d5-d011df9149f1@googlegroups.com>
 <58edcdd2$0$1501$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <fdb4a93a-688e-4a3f-bbc3-0df3ee1d2ac7@googlegroups.com>
 <54f1685d-1d2d-44b5-869e-a510569ba9d1@googlegroups.com>
 <lf5a87ln8k9.fsf@ling.helsinki.fi>
 <1d352948-9029-4b86-b2f1-2b52608109ea@googlegroups.com>
 <616ebaec-f140-491c-897e-f2c4b8368d28@googlegroups.com>
 <IboIA.298355$0L.88195@fx12.am4>
 <58f2dc43$0$1583$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <_6JIA.1041096$Pm3.778529@fx42.am4>
 <fe03f274-dab8-4510-8039-03e1c5f82527@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <nLKIA.897491$w46.587707@fx39.am4>

On 16/04/2017 13:22, Rustom Mody wrote:
> On Sunday, April 16, 2017 at 5:36:28 PM UTC+5:30, bartc wrote:
>> On 16/04/2017 03:51, Steve D'Aprano wrote:
>>> On Sat, 15 Apr 2017 10:17 pm, bartc wrote:
>>
>>>> Yes, I'm constantly surprised at this, as such syntax has a very low
>>>> cost (in my last compiler, supporting 'while' for example only added 30
>>>> lines to the project).
>>>
>>> That's the advantage of writing your own private language and having no
>>> users except for yourself. You get to cut corners. Python has tens of
>>> thousands of users, and doesn't have that luxury.
>>
>> Here are the lines of code in my C compiler which are necessary to
>> support 'while': https://pastebin.com/BYFV7EWr
>>
>> (45 lines shown, but there are exactly 30 Loc if blanks are excluded.)
>>
>> I'd be interested in knowing why implementing While in Python would need
>> significantly more. (The 30 Loc figure is with support for loops /in
>> general/ already in place, and is for /adding/ a new loop statement, in
>> this case 'while')
>
> You walk down a mountain path (trail in US-ese?) stopping here and there to
> smell a flower or spy a butterfly.
> Change to driving down a mountain road ? quiet for the most part ? is it ok
> to drive on the wrong side?
> Change to an expressway is it ok to change lanes randomly, not maintain speeds
> within upper (and lower!) limits?
>
> As others have tried to point out maintaining your own 1-man-language is one thing
> Maintaining a language
> - used by industry and academia
> - Used by FLOSS teams and commercial
> - by kids and old-hands
> - 1-man projects and large multiperson projects
>
> is quite another
>
> Dont get me wrong: I dont agree with everything about python.  And the current(est)
> mess around async (and f-strings?) is (IMHO) going to cost more dearly than people expect...
> And we will have to wait another 10 years for that decision...
>
> My point is that you dont seem to have any estimate of the difference in
> momentum between your 'its-just-another-30-lines' language and a million
> user base language

Yet countless other, far more elaborate features /are/ added all the time.

Technically, adding this one feature to Python /is/ trivial, for 
example, allowing while: as a synonym for while True:, but preferably 
using a new keyword such as loop. Nothing else needs to be touched. And 
it could have been done right at the start when the politics was simpler.

But people just don't want it.

/That/ is what surprises me, when people reject things that to me are 
no-brainers.

-- 
bartc


From gbs.deadeye at gmail.com  Sun Apr 16 10:03:04 2017
From: gbs.deadeye at gmail.com (=?UTF-8?Q?Andre_M=C3=BCller?=)
Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2017 14:03:04 +0000
Subject: write arrays to disk
In-Reply-To: <448f8498de822ce8d56a982c3e05f07a@cptec.inpe.br>
References: <448f8498de822ce8d56a982c3e05f07a@cptec.inpe.br>
Message-ID: <CAJL1nTTSCccr31D1xD6VHokjF_3Hh7+PLc85a2jvQhk5Tr1p_g@mail.gmail.com>

Hi,

there are many possible solutions.

You'll need a serialiser to convert the Python object into bytes.
If you wan't to access the data from other applications, you can use json,
xml or other well known formats. Json and XML is in the Python standard
library.
You can also use a database.

As json:
arr = [1, 2, 3, 4]
with open('array.json') as fd:
    json.dump(arr, fd)

with open('array.json') as fd:
    arr = json.load(fd)

With a bytearray:
arr = bytearray([1, 2, 3, 4])
with open('ba.bin', 'wb') as fd:
    fd.write(arr)

with open('ba.bin', 'rb') as fd:
    arr = bytearray(fd.read())

Another example with a numpy array:
arr = numpy.array([1, 2, 3, 4], dtype=numpy.int)
with open('array.bin', 'wb') as fd:
    arr.tofile(fd)

with open('array.bin', 'rb') as fd:
    arr = numpy.fromfile(fd, dtype=numpy.int)

What you should not do:

arr = [1, 2, 3, 4]
with open('plain.txt', 'wt') as fd:
    fd.write(repr(arr))

with open('plain.txt') as fd:
    arr = eval(fd.read())

If you need to store more data, you should think about a database.

Greetings
Andre

<jorge.conrado at cptec.inpe.br> schrieb am So., 16. Apr. 2017 um 14:29 Uhr:

> Hi,
>
> I'm new on Python software. I would like to write on disk arrays in
> binary or ascii format. Can someone please help me?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Conrado
> --
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
>


From rosuav at gmail.com  Sun Apr 16 10:22:40 2017
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2017 00:22:40 +1000
Subject: Looping [was Re: Python and the need for speed]
In-Reply-To: <nLKIA.897491$w46.587707@fx39.am4>
References: <768f9a44-5d90-4756-8a99-821253a491f8@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.9.1491728745.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <58ec9192$0$1602$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <oci97l$10u4$1@gioia.aioe.org>
 <58eceea2$0$1615$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <CAE6NSRD=xU_mNECNBU2w92Br=vgHJJVqSruGFrPB=vrbpkj0Nw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPjBxg_49OD_CNXUAHKjxYsUiLab4s_fCs_Ast3LyymB82zTCA@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.68.1491956914.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <4277c149-e136-4d33-91d5-d011df9149f1@googlegroups.com>
 <58edcdd2$0$1501$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <fdb4a93a-688e-4a3f-bbc3-0df3ee1d2ac7@googlegroups.com>
 <54f1685d-1d2d-44b5-869e-a510569ba9d1@googlegroups.com>
 <lf5a87ln8k9.fsf@ling.helsinki.fi>
 <1d352948-9029-4b86-b2f1-2b52608109ea@googlegroups.com>
 <616ebaec-f140-491c-897e-f2c4b8368d28@googlegroups.com>
 <IboIA.298355$0L.88195@fx12.am4>
 <58f2dc43$0$1583$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <_6JIA.1041096$Pm3.778529@fx42.am4>
 <fe03f274-dab8-4510-8039-03e1c5f82527@googlegroups.com>
 <nLKIA.897491$w46.587707@fx39.am4>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmqhb+ZNQi=ZK8XCuqccMRPH1ZJEZstSLO15fd4zg+vG0w@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Apr 16, 2017 at 11:57 PM, bartc <bc at freeuk.com> wrote:
> Technically, adding this one feature to Python /is/ trivial, for example,
> allowing while: as a synonym for while True:, but preferably using a new
> keyword such as loop. Nothing else needs to be touched. And it could have
> been done right at the start when the politics was simpler.
>
> But people just don't want it.
>
> /That/ is what surprises me, when people reject things that to me are
> no-brainers.

Maybe it's not a no-brainer to them. Maybe you need to make the case that:

1) It's worth stopping people from using the word "loop" as a variable
2) It's worth documenting another type of loop
3) It's worth having everyone need to know how to read another type of loop

What's the benefit, aside from avoiding discussions like this?

ChrisA


From irmen.NOSPAM at xs4all.nl  Sun Apr 16 10:43:36 2017
From: irmen.NOSPAM at xs4all.nl (Irmen de Jong)
Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2017 16:43:36 +0200
Subject: write arrays to disk
In-Reply-To: <mailman.212.1492345718.2951.python-list@python.org>
References: <448f8498de822ce8d56a982c3e05f07a@cptec.inpe.br>
 <mailman.212.1492345718.2951.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <58f38319$0$813$e4fe514c@news.xs4all.nl>

On 16-4-2017 14:28, jorge.conrado at cptec.inpe.br wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> I'm new on Python software. I would like to write on disk arrays in binary or ascii
> format. Can someone please help me?
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Conrado

What kind of data is in the arrays?
Who or what will be reading the files?
And most importantly: what have you tried yourself so far?

Irmen



From vincent.vande.vyvre at telenet.be  Sun Apr 16 10:49:17 2017
From: vincent.vande.vyvre at telenet.be (Vincent Vande Vyvre)
Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2017 16:49:17 +0200
Subject: Python 3.5+ Arrow keys and others in the console
In-Reply-To: <ocvr1i$b0f$1@blaine.gmane.org>
References: <268903ad-064b-922f-b946-be0d8ced23ad@telenet.be>
 <ocvr1i$b0f$1@blaine.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <5827e486-383b-46ee-7103-24d623556bf1@telenet.be>

Le 16/04/17 ? 15:19, Wolfgang Maier a ?crit :
> On 16.04.2017 10:56, Vincent Vande Vyvre wrote:
>> Hi,
>>
>> I'm using Python 3.5 and 3.6 in venv and I see a strange behaviour in
>> the interactive interpreter.
>>
>> The arrow keys can't be used to move the cursor into the current line of
>> code or to rewrite the last lines.
>>
>> With the 3.5 I can use the backspace and erase the code but not in 3.6
>>
>> Python 3.5.2 (default, Dec 19 2016, 11:46:33)
>> [GCC 4.8.4] on linux
>> Type "help", "copyright", "credits" or "license" for more information.
>>>>> f = "kjhfgt"^[[D            # Left Arrow Key
>>>>> ^[[A                        # Up Arrow Key
>>
>>
>> Python 3.6.1 (default, Apr 12 2017, 11:39:17)
>> [GCC 4.8.4] on linux
>> Type "help", "copyright", "credits" or "license" for more information.
>>>>> f = "lkjgh"
>>>>> ^[[A^[[B                    # Up Arrow Key and Backspace Key
>>   File "<stdin>", line 1
>>
>>     ^
>> SyntaxError: invalid syntax
>>>>>
>>
>
> Make sure you build Python (I guess you did this for 3.6, but are 
> probably using your OS Python3.5) with readline. This needs the dev 
> version of the readline library installed at build time.
> So, step 1 would be to get the library, then rebuild Python3.6 by 
> running:
>
> 1) make clean
> 2) ./configure
> 3) make
>
> It could be worthwhile checking for other missing optional C libraries 
> first though. If you want to make sure you have all of them, follow 
> the steps described here:
>
> https://docs.python.org/devguide/setup.html#build-dependencies
>
> Best,
> Wolfgang
>
>

No, both are in venv, my system version is the 3.4.

Anyway, after "apt-get build-dep python3.4" and following your advice 
all works as expected.

Thanks Wolfgang.


Incidentally, with the 3.6 I've added the argument 
"--enable-optimizations" to the configure.

The unitest were executed and fail with hashlib, then it rerun some 
compilation, rerun the unittest, refail with hashlib, recompile some 
modules and finish without error. (see a little part of the log below)

I don't know if this is relevant ...


Vincent


----------------------------------------

0:06:47 [161/405] test_hash
0:06:49 [162/405] test_hashlib
Fatal Python error: Segmentation fault

Current thread 0x00002af5c0cfa380 (most recent call first):
   File 
"/home/vincent/CPython/Python-3.6.1/Lib/test/support/__init__.py", line 
1508 in gc_collect
   File 
"/home/vincent/CPython/Python-3.6.1/Lib/test/libregrtest/save_env.py", 
line 271 in __exit__
   File 
"/home/vincent/CPython/Python-3.6.1/Lib/test/libregrtest/runtest.py", 
line 168 in runtest_inner
   File 
"/home/vincent/CPython/Python-3.6.1/Lib/test/libregrtest/runtest.py", 
line 129 in runtest
   File 
"/home/vincent/CPython/Python-3.6.1/Lib/test/libregrtest/main.py", line 
343 in run_tests_sequential
   File 
"/home/vincent/CPython/Python-3.6.1/Lib/test/libregrtest/main.py", line 
418 in run_tests
   File 
"/home/vincent/CPython/Python-3.6.1/Lib/test/libregrtest/main.py", line 
490 in _main
   File 
"/home/vincent/CPython/Python-3.6.1/Lib/test/libregrtest/main.py", line 
468 in main
   File 
"/home/vincent/CPython/Python-3.6.1/Lib/test/libregrtest/main.py", line 
532 in main
   File "/home/vincent/CPython/Python-3.6.1/Lib/test/regrtest.py", line 
46 in _main
   File "/home/vincent/CPython/Python-3.6.1/Lib/test/regrtest.py", line 
50 in <module>
   File "/home/vincent/CPython/Python-3.6.1/Lib/runpy.py", line 85 in 
_run_code
   File "/home/vincent/CPython/Python-3.6.1/Lib/runpy.py", line 193 in 
_run_module_as_main
Segmentation fault (core dumped)
make[1]: quittant le r?pertoire ? /home/vincent/CPython/Python-3.6.1 ?
make build_all_merge_profile
make[1]: entrant dans le r?pertoire ? /home/vincent/CPython/Python-3.6.1 ?
true
make[1]: quittant le r?pertoire ? /home/vincent/CPython/Python-3.6.1 ?
Rebuilding with profile guided optimizations:
make clean
make[1]: entrant dans le r?pertoire ? /home/vincent/CPython/Python-3.6.1 ?
find . -depth -name '__pycache__' -exec rm -rf {} ';'
find . -name '*.py[co]' -exec rm -f {} ';'
find . -name '*.[oa]' -exec rm -f {} ';'
find . -name '*.s[ol]' -exec rm -f {} ';'
find . -name '*.so.[0-9]*.[0-9]*' -exec rm -f {} ';'
find build -name 'fficonfig.h' -exec rm -f {} ';' || true
find build -name '*.py' -exec rm -f {} ';' || true
find build -name '*.py[co]' -exec rm -f {} ';' || true
rm -f pybuilddir.txt
rm -f Lib/lib2to3/*Grammar*.pickle
rm -f Programs/_testembed Programs/_freeze_importlib
find build -type f -a ! -name '*.gc??' -exec rm -f {} ';'
rm -f Include/pydtrace_probes.h
make[1]: quittant le r?pertoire ? /home/vincent/CPython/Python-3.6.1 ?
make build_all_use_profile
make[1]: entrant dans le r?pertoire ? /home/vincent/CPython/Python-3.6.1 ?
make build_all CFLAGS_NODIST=" -fprofile-use -fprofile-correction " 
LDFLAGS=" "
make[2]: entrant dans le r?pertoire ? /home/vincent/CPython/Python-3.6.1 ?
gcc -pthread -c -Wno-unused-result -Wsign-compare -DNDEBUG -g -fwrapv 
-O3 -Wall -Wstrict-prototypes    -std=c99 -Wextra -Wno-unused-result 
-Wno-unused-parameter -Wno-missing-field-initializers -fprofile-use 
-fprofile-correction   -I. -I./Include    -DPy_BUILD_CORE -o 
Programs/python.o ./Programs/python.c

....

-------------------------------------------------------



From walters.justin01 at gmail.com  Sun Apr 16 11:00:14 2017
From: walters.justin01 at gmail.com (justin walters)
Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2017 08:00:14 -0700
Subject: Static typing [was Re: Python and the need for speed]
In-Reply-To: <15IIA.433240$UY3.424770@fx11.am4>
References: <768f9a44-5d90-4756-8a99-821253a491f8@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.5.1491710256.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <58e9e519$0$1528$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <mailman.9.1491728745.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <58ec9192$0$1602$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <oci97l$10u4$1@gioia.aioe.org>
 <58eceea2$0$1615$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <CAE6NSRD=xU_mNECNBU2w92Br=vgHJJVqSruGFrPB=vrbpkj0Nw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPjBxg_49OD_CNXUAHKjxYsUiLab4s_fCs_Ast3LyymB82zTCA@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.68.1491956914.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <4277c149-e136-4d33-91d5-d011df9149f1@googlegroups.com>
 <58edcdd2$0$1501$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <fdb4a93a-688e-4a3f-bbc3-0df3ee1d2ac7@googlegroups.com>
 <b003e7c4-4bc4-4478-b793-5f43a4360b55@googlegroups.com>
 <58f2f2b1$0$1599$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <15IIA.433240$UY3.424770@fx11.am4>
Message-ID: <CAO1D73E7fcLeLmn04zpZf9znnod3hQDd1ayziTieBjm=K_jcWA@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Apr 16, 2017 at 3:55 AM, bartc <bc at freeuk.com> wrote:

> Example C of the same silly program in Python:
>
> def add(a,b):
>     return a+b
>
> def testfn():
>     sum=a=b=0
>     for i in range(100000000):
>         sum += add(a,b)
>         a += 1
>         b += 2
>
>     print (a,b,sum)
>
> testfn()
>
>
> Timings:
>
> A (Pure HLL**)          13   seconds      (dynamic/interpreted)
> A (With ASM module)      3
> A (With ASM module)      2                (older version; hmmm...)
>
> B (my compiler)          0.5              (static/compiled)
> B (via C/gcc-O3)         0.14
>
> C (Python 2)           163
> C (Python 2/xrange)     30
> C (Python 3)            38
> C (Pypy)                 5
>


Just for fun I wanted to write this up in Nim to compare execution time.
Nim has Python-esqe syntax but is statically
typed and compiled. I think this is relevant to the discussion.

Code looks like this:

```
import times

proc add(a, b: int): int =
    result = a + b

proc test() =
    var
        sum = 0
        a = 0
        b = 0
    for i in 0..<100000000:
        sum += add(a, b)
        a += 1
        b += 1
    echo "a: " & $a & " b: " & $b & "\n"
    echo "Sum: " & $sum

when isMainModule:
    var t0 = cpuTime()
    test()
    var t1 = cpuTime()
    echo "***Execution Time: " & $(t1 - t0) & "***\n"
```


No optimization: ***Execution Time: 2.876923***
Optimized for speed: ***Execution Time: 2.844163***
Optimized for size: ***Execution Time: 2.844901***
Release option: ***Execution Time: 2.844021***

So, generally around 2.8 seconds.

Not too bad for a GC'd language. There are probably some more optimizations
I could make to improve execution time.


From torriem at gmail.com  Sun Apr 16 11:35:27 2017
From: torriem at gmail.com (Michael Torrie)
Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2017 09:35:27 -0600
Subject: Looping [was Re: Python and the need for speed]
In-Reply-To: <nLKIA.897491$w46.587707@fx39.am4>
References: <768f9a44-5d90-4756-8a99-821253a491f8@googlegroups.com>
 <58ec9192$0$1602$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <oci97l$10u4$1@gioia.aioe.org>
 <58eceea2$0$1615$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <CAE6NSRD=xU_mNECNBU2w92Br=vgHJJVqSruGFrPB=vrbpkj0Nw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPjBxg_49OD_CNXUAHKjxYsUiLab4s_fCs_Ast3LyymB82zTCA@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.68.1491956914.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <4277c149-e136-4d33-91d5-d011df9149f1@googlegroups.com>
 <58edcdd2$0$1501$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <fdb4a93a-688e-4a3f-bbc3-0df3ee1d2ac7@googlegroups.com>
 <54f1685d-1d2d-44b5-869e-a510569ba9d1@googlegroups.com>
 <lf5a87ln8k9.fsf@ling.helsinki.fi>
 <1d352948-9029-4b86-b2f1-2b52608109ea@googlegroups.com>
 <616ebaec-f140-491c-897e-f2c4b8368d28@googlegroups.com>
 <IboIA.298355$0L.88195@fx12.am4>
 <58f2dc43$0$1583$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <_6JIA.1041096$Pm3.778529@fx42.am4>
 <fe03f274-dab8-4510-8039-03e1c5f82527@googlegroups.com>
 <nLKIA.897491$w46.587707@fx39.am4>
Message-ID: <0846e5ce-f237-47ba-958f-def607b3bce2@gmail.com>

On 04/16/2017 07:57 AM, bartc wrote:
> But people just don't want it.
> 
> /That/ is what surprises me, when people reject things that to me are 
> no-brainers.

I simply don't care about these missing loop constructs.  Python works
great for what I use it for, and apparently works well for many people.
I have yet to find a loop that I couldn't construct with Python's
apparently-limited constructs.  I guess I don't see what having those
extra looping constructs will give me in terms of productivity or even
ease of use.


From bc at freeuk.com  Sun Apr 16 11:46:28 2017
From: bc at freeuk.com (bartc)
Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2017 16:46:28 +0100
Subject: Static typing [was Re: Python and the need for speed]
In-Reply-To: <mailman.216.1492354823.2951.python-list@python.org>
References: <768f9a44-5d90-4756-8a99-821253a491f8@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.5.1491710256.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <58e9e519$0$1528$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <mailman.9.1491728745.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <58ec9192$0$1602$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <oci97l$10u4$1@gioia.aioe.org>
 <58eceea2$0$1615$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <CAE6NSRD=xU_mNECNBU2w92Br=vgHJJVqSruGFrPB=vrbpkj0Nw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPjBxg_49OD_CNXUAHKjxYsUiLab4s_fCs_Ast3LyymB82zTCA@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.68.1491956914.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <4277c149-e136-4d33-91d5-d011df9149f1@googlegroups.com>
 <58edcdd2$0$1501$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <fdb4a93a-688e-4a3f-bbc3-0df3ee1d2ac7@googlegroups.com>
 <b003e7c4-4bc4-4478-b793-5f43a4360b55@googlegroups.com>
 <58f2f2b1$0$1599$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <15IIA.433240$UY3.424770@fx11.am4>
 <CAO1D73E7fcLeLmn04zpZf9znnod3hQDd1ayziTieBjm=K_jcWA@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.216.1492354823.2951.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <plMIA.1094931$vF2.1030616@fx46.am4>

On 16/04/2017 16:00, justin walters wrote:
> On Sun, Apr 16, 2017 at 3:55 AM, bartc <bc at freeuk.com> wrote:
>
>> Example C of the same silly program in Python:
>>
>> def add(a,b):
>>     return a+b
>>
>> def testfn():
>>     sum=a=b=0
>>     for i in range(100000000):
>>         sum += add(a,b)
>>         a += 1
>>         b += 2
>>
>>     print (a,b,sum)
>>
>> testfn()
>>
>>
>> Timings:
>>
>> A (Pure HLL**)          13   seconds      (dynamic/interpreted)
>> A (With ASM module)      3

>> B (my compiler)          0.5              (static/compiled)

>> C (Python 2/xrange)     30
>> C (Python 3)            38
>> C (Pypy)                 5
>>
>
>
> Just for fun I wanted to write this up in Nim to compare execution time.
> Nim has Python-esqe syntax but is statically

(Nice-looking language, I hadn't heard of it.)

> typed and compiled. I think this is relevant to the discussion.
>
> Code looks like this:
>
> ```
> import times
>
> proc add(a, b: int): int =
>     result = a + b
>
> proc test() =
>     var
>         sum = 0
>         a = 0
>         b = 0
>     for i in 0..<100000000:

Loop iterations should be 100 million, if this is one less. Missing one 
out won't affect the timing, but will give a different result if 
comparing implementations to see if they do the same thing.

With 100M, the results are (of a,b and sum):

100000000 200000000 14999999850000000

>         sum += add(a, b)
>         a += 1
>         b += 1

b += 2, both to the ensure the same output, and in case there's a sneaky 
optimisation it can do for b+=1...

>     echo "a: " & $a & " b: " & $b & "\n"
>     echo "Sum: " & $sum
>
> when isMainModule:
>     var t0 = cpuTime()
>     test()
>     var t1 = cpuTime()
>     echo "***Execution Time: " & $(t1 - t0) & "***\n"
> ```
>
>
> No optimization: ***Execution Time: 2.876923***
> Optimized for speed: ***Execution Time: 2.844163***
> Optimized for size: ***Execution Time: 2.844901***

Hmm, the optimiser is similar to mine then!

> Release option: ***Execution Time: 2.844021***
>
> So, generally around 2.8 seconds.
>
> Not too bad for a GC'd language. There are probably some more optimizations
> I could make to improve execution time.

What were the results with Python on your machine?

-- 
bartc


From bc at freeuk.com  Sun Apr 16 12:05:38 2017
From: bc at freeuk.com (bartc)
Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2017 17:05:38 +0100
Subject: Looping [was Re: Python and the need for speed]
In-Reply-To: <mailman.214.1492352568.2951.python-list@python.org>
References: <768f9a44-5d90-4756-8a99-821253a491f8@googlegroups.com>
 <CAE6NSRD=xU_mNECNBU2w92Br=vgHJJVqSruGFrPB=vrbpkj0Nw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPjBxg_49OD_CNXUAHKjxYsUiLab4s_fCs_Ast3LyymB82zTCA@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.68.1491956914.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <4277c149-e136-4d33-91d5-d011df9149f1@googlegroups.com>
 <58edcdd2$0$1501$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <fdb4a93a-688e-4a3f-bbc3-0df3ee1d2ac7@googlegroups.com>
 <54f1685d-1d2d-44b5-869e-a510569ba9d1@googlegroups.com>
 <lf5a87ln8k9.fsf@ling.helsinki.fi>
 <1d352948-9029-4b86-b2f1-2b52608109ea@googlegroups.com>
 <616ebaec-f140-491c-897e-f2c4b8368d28@googlegroups.com>
 <IboIA.298355$0L.88195@fx12.am4>
 <58f2dc43$0$1583$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <_6JIA.1041096$Pm3.778529@fx42.am4>
 <fe03f274-dab8-4510-8039-03e1c5f82527@googlegroups.com>
 <nLKIA.897491$w46.587707@fx39.am4>
 <CAPTjJmqhb+ZNQi=ZK8XCuqccMRPH1ZJEZstSLO15fd4zg+vG0w@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.214.1492352568.2951.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <nDMIA.384901$y83.337307@fx30.am4>

On 16/04/2017 15:22, Chris Angelico wrote:
> On Sun, Apr 16, 2017 at 11:57 PM, bartc <bc at freeuk.com> wrote:
>> Technically, adding this one feature to Python /is/ trivial, for example,
>> allowing while: as a synonym for while True:, but preferably using a new
>> keyword such as loop. Nothing else needs to be touched. And it could have
>> been done right at the start when the politics was simpler.
>>
>> But people just don't want it.
>>
>> /That/ is what surprises me, when people reject things that to me are
>> no-brainers.
>
> Maybe it's not a no-brainer to them. Maybe you need to make the case that:
>
> 1) It's worth stopping people from using the word "loop" as a variable

Actually I think 'loop' could still be used as a variable, since 'name:' 
wouldn't occur in any other contexts. But a dual purpose 'loop' wouldn't 
be elegant.

> 2) It's worth documenting another type of loop
> 3) It's worth having everyone need to know how to read another type of loop

Compared to all the other stuff in Python, seriously? Lambdas, 
listcomps, generators, iterators, decorators, subclassing, class and 
instance attributes, ... no problemo.

But faced with:

   loop: print ("Hi!")

will lead to head-scratching?!

> What's the benefit, aside from avoiding discussions like this?

Imagine if the discussion was instead about introducing a negate 
operator so that you could write:

   a = -b

instead of having to write:

   a = 0 - b

It wouldn't be a big deal having to do the latter, but it's nicer not to.

I just find writing 'while 1' (or while (1) or for(;;) elsewhere) an 
annoyance.

-- 
bartc


From walters.justin01 at gmail.com  Sun Apr 16 12:20:18 2017
From: walters.justin01 at gmail.com (justin walters)
Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2017 09:20:18 -0700
Subject: Static typing [was Re: Python and the need for speed]
In-Reply-To: <plMIA.1094931$vF2.1030616@fx46.am4>
References: <768f9a44-5d90-4756-8a99-821253a491f8@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.5.1491710256.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <58e9e519$0$1528$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <mailman.9.1491728745.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <58ec9192$0$1602$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <oci97l$10u4$1@gioia.aioe.org>
 <58eceea2$0$1615$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <CAE6NSRD=xU_mNECNBU2w92Br=vgHJJVqSruGFrPB=vrbpkj0Nw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPjBxg_49OD_CNXUAHKjxYsUiLab4s_fCs_Ast3LyymB82zTCA@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.68.1491956914.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <4277c149-e136-4d33-91d5-d011df9149f1@googlegroups.com>
 <58edcdd2$0$1501$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <fdb4a93a-688e-4a3f-bbc3-0df3ee1d2ac7@googlegroups.com>
 <b003e7c4-4bc4-4478-b793-5f43a4360b55@googlegroups.com>
 <58f2f2b1$0$1599$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <15IIA.433240$UY3.424770@fx11.am4>
 <CAO1D73E7fcLeLmn04zpZf9znnod3hQDd1ayziTieBjm=K_jcWA@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.216.1492354823.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <plMIA.1094931$vF2.1030616@fx46.am4>
Message-ID: <CAO1D73EUtwZ5ZhD3PgrCTRH=nsAxTzv5WWeu1=cEdU4S4hJiYA@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Apr 16, 2017 at 8:46 AM, bartc <bc at freeuk.com> wrote:

> What were the results with Python on your machine?



Well, at first I tried to implement it with a generator. I gave up on
waiting for the program to complete
after about 6 minutes.

After using your code almost exactly I get:
>>> Sum:  14999999850000000
>>> ***Execution Time:  17.33912420272827 ***

That's with Python 3.5 on an Intel I5-6600k 3.9Ghz cpu and 16GB DDR4 memory.

    > (Nice-looking language, I hadn't heard of it.)

Yeah, it's pretty neat. Some parts of Nim aren't really production ready
yet, but I think it has a bright future.

proc test() =
>     var
>         sum = 0
>         a = 0
>         b = 0
>     for i in 0..<100000000:
>
>
Loop iterations should be 100 million, if this is one less. Missing one out
> won't affect the timing, but will give a different result if comparing
> implementations to see if they do the same thing.
>

It's not one less. It will execute exactly 100 million times. Meaning it
will execute when i is
99,999,999 but not when i is 100,000,000. This gives exactly 100,000,000
iterations including
the iteration for i = 0. It could alternatively be written as:

============================================
for i in 1..100000000:
============================================

Didn't realize I had messed up the increment on var b with my Nim
implementation!

Fixed:

===========================================
import
times

proc add(a, b: int): int =
    result = a + b

proc test() =
    var
        sum = 0
        a = 0
        b = 0
    for i in 0..<100000000:
        sum += add(a, b)
        a += 1
        b += 2
    echo "a: " & $a & " b: " & $b & "\n"
    echo "Sum: " & $sum

when isMainModule:
    var t0 = cpuTime()
    test()
    var t1 = cpuTime()
    echo "***Execution Time: " & $(t1 - t0) & "***\n"
===========================================

The above Nim code is a tad bit slower with the larger var b:
>>> a: 100000000 b: 200000000
>>> Sum: 14999999850000000
>>> ***Execution Time: 2.888533***

With Speed Optimization:
>>> a: 100000000 b: 200000000
>>> Sum: 14999999850000000
>>> ***Execution Time: 2.843629***

With size optimization:
>>> a: 100000000 b: 200000000
>>> Sum: 14999999850000000
>>> ***Execution Time: 2.844876***

Compiled with release flag:
>>> a: 100000000 b: 200000000
>>> Sum: 14999999850000000
>>> ***Execution Time: 2.842312***

    > Hmm, the optimiser is similar to mine then!

I'm pretty new when it comes to compilers. Been trying to learn more and
build my own but
progress is fairly slow. I'm not sure what `nimc` is doing under the hood,
but I do know that it
transpiles to C before running either `gcc` or `clang`.


From steve+python at pearwood.info  Sun Apr 16 12:30:12 2017
From: steve+python at pearwood.info (Steve D'Aprano)
Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2017 02:30:12 +1000
Subject: Looping [was Re: Python and the need for speed]
References: <768f9a44-5d90-4756-8a99-821253a491f8@googlegroups.com>
 <58e9e519$0$1528$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <mailman.9.1491728745.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <58ec9192$0$1602$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <oci97l$10u4$1@gioia.aioe.org>
 <58eceea2$0$1615$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <CAE6NSRD=xU_mNECNBU2w92Br=vgHJJVqSruGFrPB=vrbpkj0Nw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPjBxg_49OD_CNXUAHKjxYsUiLab4s_fCs_Ast3LyymB82zTCA@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.68.1491956914.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <4277c149-e136-4d33-91d5-d011df9149f1@googlegroups.com>
 <58edcdd2$0$1501$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <fdb4a93a-688e-4a3f-bbc3-0df3ee1d2ac7@googlegroups.com>
 <54f1685d-1d2d-44b5-869e-a510569ba9d1@googlegroups.com>
 <lf5a87ln8k9.fsf@ling.helsinki.fi>
 <1d352948-9029-4b86-b2f1-2b52608109ea@googlegroups.com>
 <616ebaec-f140-491c-897e-f2c4b8368d28@googlegroups.com>
 <IboIA.298355$0L.88195@fx12.am4>
 <58f2dc43$0$1583$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <_6JIA.1041096$Pm3.778529@fx42.am4>
Message-ID: <58f39c15$0$1620$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>

On Sun, 16 Apr 2017 10:06 pm, bartc wrote:

> On 16/04/2017 03:51, Steve D'Aprano wrote:
>> On Sat, 15 Apr 2017 10:17 pm, bartc wrote:
> 
>>> Yes, I'm constantly surprised at this, as such syntax has a very low
>>> cost (in my last compiler, supporting 'while' for example only added 30
>>> lines to the project).
>>
>> That's the advantage of writing your own private language and having no
>> users except for yourself. You get to cut corners. Python has tens of
>> thousands of users, and doesn't have that luxury.
> 
> Here are the lines of code in my C compiler which are necessary to
> support 'while': https://pastebin.com/BYFV7EWr
> 
> (45 lines shown, but there are exactly 30 Loc if blanks are excluded.)
> 
> I'd be interested in knowing why implementing While in Python would need
> significantly more. 

Have you looked at the source code?

https://github.com/python/cpython


> (The 30 Loc figure is with support for loops /in 
> general/ already in place, and is for /adding/ a new loop statement, in
> this case 'while')

What part of *testing* and *documenting* do you not understand?

Do you have any unit tests for your compiler?  How about regression tests --
when you fix a bug, do you write a regression test to ensure it never
creeps back in?

Do you have any documentation for your compiler? Does it include doctests?
Are there any tutorials that beginners can read?

I'm guessing you don't have any of those things. The code snippet you posted
doesn't even have any comments.

Here is the declaration and comment for a regression test in Python's test
suite, checking against the return of a bug in the while statement:

    def test_break_continue_loop(self):
        """This test warrants an explanation. It is a test specifically 
        for SF bugs #463359 and #462937. The bug is that a 'break' 
        statement executed or exception raised inside a try/except inside
        a loop, *after* a continue statement has been executed in that loop,
        will cause the wrong number of arguments to be popped off the stack
        and the instruction pointer reset to a very small number (usually
        0.) Because of this, the following test *must* written as a
        function, and the tracking vars *must* be function arguments with
        default values. Otherwise, the test will loop and loop.
        """

(I've reformatted the comment as a docstring to make it easier to wrap.)

The test itself is 16 lines of code, plus 8 more lines of explanation for
why the test exists. That's for just one bug. Here's a snippet of another
test, testing that when "while 0" is optimized away, the else clause is
not:

        # Issue1920: "while 0" is optimized away,
        # ensure that the "else" clause is still present.
        x = 0
        while 0:
            x = 1
        else:
            x = 2
        self.assertEqual(x, 2)


Do I need to go on?

As a lone-wolf developer with a user base of exactly one person, perhaps you
don't care about tests, documentations, tutorials, or even comments in your
code. But Python has multiple dozens of developers who have to understand
each others code. It is open source and receives patches and contributions
from hundreds more. It has tens or hundreds of thousands of users with high
expectations about quality.

Python's requirements are a bit more strict than "well, it seems to be
working okay, so that's good enough for me".

If Python added something like:

    loop N times:
        ...

we would need *at least* the following:

- a test that `loop` was interpreted as a keyword;
- a test that `times` was interpreted as a keyword;
- a test that `loop 0 times` didn't execute the body at all;
- a test that `loop 1 times` executed the body exactly once;
- a test that `loop N times` executed the body exactly N times, for
  a few different (and probably randomly selected) values of N;
- a test that the statement handled negative integers and floats correctly;
- a test that the statement handled non-numeric values correctly 
  (probably by raising an exception);
- a test that `continue` worked as expected inside this statement;
- a test that `break` worked as expected;
- a test that `return` worked as expected;
- a test that `raise` worked as expected;
- a test that signals will be caught correctly inside the statement;

and possibly more.



[...]
> No, we're talking about a loop. It must be just about the simplest thing
> to implement in a language (compared with a type system, or code
> generation).

It still needs tests and documentation. In the absence of formal correctness
proofs, any code not covered by tests should be considered buggy.


> BTW supporting a dedicated endless loop was only about 20 lines in
> another project. Believe me, it is /nothing/. I wish other aspects were
> just as trivial. It didn't even need a dedicated keyword.

Of course it's "nothing" for you, since by the evidence given you don't
bother with the hard parts. No comments, no communication with other
developers (except to gloat over how awesome you are and how stupid their
choices are), no documentation, no tests.

 
>  > - describing the various syntax forms;
>  > - explaining how they differ;
>  > - tutorials for beginners showing each form;
> 
> And you don't have to explain how an endless loop should be written as
> 'while True', meanwhile advising against using 'while 1'?

No you don't, because `while True` or `while 1` or for that matter `while
['this list', 'is, 'a', 'true object']` are easily derived from
understanding (1) while loops; and (2) truthy values.

"repeat forever" needs documentation, because it is syntax.

(And what on earth makes you think that `while 1` needs advising against?)


>> The more choices you offer, the harder that decision becomes:
>>
>> - numeric Pascal or C-style loop
>> - foreach style loop
>> - repeat while condition (test at start)
>> - repeat until condition (test at start)
>> - do ... while condition (test at end)
>> - do ... until condition (test at end)
>> - repeat forever
> 
> So, how many kinds of sequences do you have in Python?
> 
> lists
> tuples
> namedtuples
> arrays
> bytearrays
> string ?
> memoryview
> 
> plus all those ordered types. My head is already spinning!

"Ordered types"?

You forgot bytes and deques. But you should try Java if you really want your
head to explode.

What's your point? Python has eight or ten or a dozen sequence types because
they're all different, sometimes *radically* different, and they all have
important uses that other types cannot fulfill.


> The loops I use are categorised as:
> 
> * Endless

That's just a special case of "until some condition is true".

> * N times

That's just a special case of "over an integer sequence".

> * Until some condition is true

You missed one: do you check the condition before the first loop, or at the
end of the loop? That makes a difference between the loop running zero or
more times, or one or more times.


> * Iterate over an integer sequence

And that in turn is just a special case of iterating over a set of values.

> * Iterate over a set of values of some object

Out of your five fundamental loops, you missed one important distinction,
and invented three unimportant ones.


It is true that Python doesn't support repeat...until condition loops, where
the condition is checked at the end. And I consider that a (minor) weakness
of Python.


> Other languages like to have even more elaborate schemes. That includes
> advanced uses of Python's for loop, were, for example, there are
> multiple loop variables.
> 
> I wonder how much testing that took to get it right?

Probably a lot. And it would be worth it even if it took fifty times more
testing.


[...]
>>> But very common requirements are endless loops, and repeat N times
>>> without needing an explicit counter.
>>
>> If by "very common" you mean "occasionally", I agree.
> 
> Most of my loops start off as endless loops, until I can determine the
> actual terminating condition, and where it best goes. Sometimes they
> stay as endless loops.
> 
> (Sometimes, I turn a normal statement into an endless loop with a 'do'
> prefix. This is an unusual feature but I use it quite a bit:
> 
>     doswitch nextchar()           # looping version of 'switch'
>     when 'A'..'Z' then ....
>     else exit                     # ie. break out of loop
>     end
> )

How delightfully eccentric of you :-)


>>> Python's byte-code does at least optimise out the check that '1' is
>>> true, but that's not what the reader sees, which is 'loop while 1 is
>>> true'. And one day it will be:
>>>
>>>      while l:
>>>          body
>>>
>>> that can be mistaken for that common idiom.
>>
>> The problem there is not the loop, but the foolish use of lowercase l as
>> a variable name.
> 
> Maybe. But if 'while 1' wasn't used, then that's one less thing to
> double-check. (I just looked at a random bunch of Python code; there
> were 25 instances of 'while True:', but 40 of 'while 1:'.)

What on earth are you talking about? Even if Python had a dedicated "loop
forever" statement, "while 1" would still be perfectly legal code.


For what it's worth, there are about 170 uses of "while 1" or "while True"
in the standard library, out of about 400+ while loops in total:

[steve at ando ~]$ cd /usr/local/lib/python3.5/
[steve at ando python3.5]$ grep "while 1:" *.py | wc -l
45
[steve at ando python3.5]$ grep "while True:" *.py | wc -l
126
[steve at ando python3.5]$ grep "while .*:" *.py | wc -l
415

which is quite rare compared to for loops:

[steve at ando python3.5]$ grep "for .*:" *.py | wc -l
1435




-- 
Steve
?Cheer up,? they said, ?things could be worse.? So I cheered up, and sure
enough, things got worse.



From steve+python at pearwood.info  Sun Apr 16 12:48:08 2017
From: steve+python at pearwood.info (Steve D'Aprano)
Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2017 02:48:08 +1000
Subject: Looping [was Re: Python and the need for speed]
References: <768f9a44-5d90-4756-8a99-821253a491f8@googlegroups.com>
 <58ec9192$0$1602$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <oci97l$10u4$1@gioia.aioe.org>
 <58eceea2$0$1615$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <CAE6NSRD=xU_mNECNBU2w92Br=vgHJJVqSruGFrPB=vrbpkj0Nw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPjBxg_49OD_CNXUAHKjxYsUiLab4s_fCs_Ast3LyymB82zTCA@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.68.1491956914.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <4277c149-e136-4d33-91d5-d011df9149f1@googlegroups.com>
 <58edcdd2$0$1501$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <fdb4a93a-688e-4a3f-bbc3-0df3ee1d2ac7@googlegroups.com>
 <54f1685d-1d2d-44b5-869e-a510569ba9d1@googlegroups.com>
 <lf5a87ln8k9.fsf@ling.helsinki.fi>
 <1d352948-9029-4b86-b2f1-2b52608109ea@googlegroups.com>
 <616ebaec-f140-491c-897e-f2c4b8368d28@googlegroups.com>
 <IboIA.298355$0L.88195@fx12.am4>
 <58f2dc43$0$1583$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <_6JIA.1041096$Pm3.778529@fx42.am4>
 <fe03f274-dab8-4510-8039-03e1c5f82527@googlegroups.com>
 <nLKIA.897491$w46.587707@fx39.am4>
Message-ID: <58f3a04b$0$1591$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>

On Sun, 16 Apr 2017 11:57 pm, bartc wrote:

> Yet countless other, far more elaborate features /are/ added all the time.

Indeed. Because they are needed. Because they add functionality that Python
doesn't already have, or seriously improves the interface to that
functionality.


> Technically, adding this one feature to Python /is/ trivial, for
> example, allowing while: as a synonym for while True:, but preferably
> using a new keyword such as loop. 

"Preferably using a new keyword"?

Dear gods, you really have *no clue* about the responsibilities of
maintaining a programming language used by tens of thousands of people.

Adding your new keyword will break thousands of peoples programs. That's not
to be done lightly, on a whim, just because you don't like the spelling
`while True`.


py> loop = True
  File "<stdin>", line 1
    loop = True
         ^
SyntaxError: invalid syntax


> Nothing else needs to be touched. 

Right. We don't need to test this new feature, because we have such awesome
mad skillz that of course it will work perfectly first time.

Nor do we need to document this new feature. We don't need to include it in
the "What's New" documentation, or include it in the tutorial, or mention
it in the list of keywords, or in the description of the grammar.

Documentation is for people who don't already know the source code because
they wrote it.

People will work it out for themselves. Eventually. After many hours, or
days, of pulling their hair out at why their working code has suddenly
stopped working after upgrading to a new Python version.

The only thing you could do that would be more irresponsible would be to
insist on introducing this new, undocumented, untested, unnecessary feature
in a bug-fix point release.

Ah, but I'm guessing that you don't understand the need for point releases
either? With only one user, yourself, who needs releases or version
numbers?


> And  
> it could have been done right at the start when the politics was simpler.
> 
> But people just don't want it.

Damn straight. Now you get it. It's not about how easy it is to implement,
it's about whether it is needed and wanted. It isn't needed, and it isn't
wanted.


> /That/ is what surprises me, when people reject things that to me are
> no-brainers.

Well, the thing is, there are two kinds of no-brainers. There are the kind
of things that are so obviously a good idea that it requires no brain to
want it.

And then there are the kinds of things that are so obviously a bad idea that
it requires no brain to want it.

Which is this, do you think?



-- 
Steve
?Cheer up,? they said, ?things could be worse.? So I cheered up, and sure
enough, things got worse.



From rustompmody at gmail.com  Sun Apr 16 13:00:29 2017
From: rustompmody at gmail.com (Rustom Mody)
Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2017 10:00:29 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Looping [was Re: Python and the need for speed]
In-Reply-To: <nLKIA.897491$w46.587707@fx39.am4>
References: <768f9a44-5d90-4756-8a99-821253a491f8@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.9.1491728745.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <58ec9192$0$1602$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <oci97l$10u4$1@gioia.aioe.org>
 <58eceea2$0$1615$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <CAE6NSRD=xU_mNECNBU2w92Br=vgHJJVqSruGFrPB=vrbpkj0Nw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPjBxg_49OD_CNXUAHKjxYsUiLab4s_fCs_Ast3LyymB82zTCA@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.68.1491956914.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <4277c149-e136-4d33-91d5-d011df9149f1@googlegroups.com>
 <58edcdd2$0$1501$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <fdb4a93a-688e-4a3f-bbc3-0df3ee1d2ac7@googlegroups.com>
 <54f1685d-1d2d-44b5-869e-a510569ba9d1@googlegroups.com>
 <lf5a87ln8k9.fsf@ling.helsinki.fi>
 <1d352948-9029-4b86-b2f1-2b52608109ea@googlegroups.com>
 <616ebaec-f140-491c-897e-f2c4b8368d28@googlegroups.com>
 <IboIA.298355$0L.88195@fx12.am4>
 <58f2dc43$0$1583$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <_6JIA.1041096$Pm3.778529@fx42.am4>
 <fe03f274-dab8-4510-8039-03e1c5f82527@googlegroups.com>
 <nLKIA.897491$w46.587707@fx39.am4>
Message-ID: <829735a9-1630-4d00-9148-3afc5732072a@googlegroups.com>

On Sunday, April 16, 2017 at 7:27:49 PM UTC+5:30, bartc wrote:

> Technically, adding this one feature to Python /is/ trivial, 
^^^^^^^^^^^^^
You are not paying attention bart and I am not likely to pursue this beyond this
post. I tried to say as are others that the substantive reasons to reject a 
feature  are mostly non-technical

BTW I regard Steven's long list of things that youve missed such as regression
tests, docs etc to be somewhat off the mark
To see that try this experiment:
Just add a feature to python that matters to you along with all these 
requirements: docs, tests etc etc
Your chances of acceptance may go up marginally but most likely it will still
not be accepted.


From tjreedy at udel.edu  Sun Apr 16 13:07:05 2017
From: tjreedy at udel.edu (Terry Reedy)
Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2017 13:07:05 -0400
Subject: Looping [was Re: Python and the need for speed]
In-Reply-To: <0846e5ce-f237-47ba-958f-def607b3bce2@gmail.com>
References: <768f9a44-5d90-4756-8a99-821253a491f8@googlegroups.com>
 <oci97l$10u4$1@gioia.aioe.org>
 <58eceea2$0$1615$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <CAE6NSRD=xU_mNECNBU2w92Br=vgHJJVqSruGFrPB=vrbpkj0Nw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPjBxg_49OD_CNXUAHKjxYsUiLab4s_fCs_Ast3LyymB82zTCA@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.68.1491956914.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <4277c149-e136-4d33-91d5-d011df9149f1@googlegroups.com>
 <58edcdd2$0$1501$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <fdb4a93a-688e-4a3f-bbc3-0df3ee1d2ac7@googlegroups.com>
 <54f1685d-1d2d-44b5-869e-a510569ba9d1@googlegroups.com>
 <lf5a87ln8k9.fsf@ling.helsinki.fi>
 <1d352948-9029-4b86-b2f1-2b52608109ea@googlegroups.com>
 <616ebaec-f140-491c-897e-f2c4b8368d28@googlegroups.com>
 <IboIA.298355$0L.88195@fx12.am4>
 <58f2dc43$0$1583$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <_6JIA.1041096$Pm3.778529@fx42.am4>
 <fe03f274-dab8-4510-8039-03e1c5f82527@googlegroups.com>
 <nLKIA.897491$w46.587707@fx39.am4>
 <0846e5ce-f237-47ba-958f-def607b3bce2@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <od08bl$mjp$1@blaine.gmane.org>

On 4/16/2017 11:35 AM, Michael Torrie wrote:
> On 04/16/2017 07:57 AM, bartc wrote:
>> But people just don't want it.
>>
>> /That/ is what surprises me, when people reject things that to me are
>> no-brainers.

Whereas to me, it is a no-brainer that we are better off *without* 
multiple while/loop constructs.

> I simply don't care about these missing loop constructs.

I do ;-)  I consider the current simplicity a feature.

 > Python works
> great for what I use it for, and apparently works well for many people.

The great majority* of 'repetition with variation' is sequentially 
processing items from a collection.  Python does that nicely with 'for 
item in collection: process(item)'.  While-loops take care of everthing 
else.

*I grepped 3.6.1 .../lib/*.py with the REs '^ *while ' and '^ *for ', 
recursing into subdirectories, including tests and a few packages in 
site-packages.  These got 1389 and 9842 hits respectively. I am opposed 
to adding syntax to subdivide the 12% of looping using 'while'.  (As a 
note, '^ *while True' had 363 hits, about 1/4 of while loops.)

 > I have yet to find a loop that I couldn't construct with Python's
 > apparently-limited constructs.

For-loops, 'limited' to iterating through collections (iterables), cover 
at least 80% of cases.  While-loops + continue/break easily cover the 
remaining cases of linear repetition.  Branching repetition, as in naive 
Fibonacci calculation and tree processing, is more easily done with 
recursion.

-- 
Terry Jan Reedy



From joao.moreira.sa.coutinho at gmail.com  Sun Apr 16 13:07:07 2017
From: joao.moreira.sa.coutinho at gmail.com (joao.moreira.sa.coutinho at gmail.com)
Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2017 10:07:07 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Installing a newly-built python on windows
Message-ID: <49e58348-8c85-4a9a-b894-44007ec4a38c@googlegroups.com>

Hi all, 

I've followed the instructions in the 1st chapter (Getting Started) of the Python Developers's Guide to compile python 3.6 from source, using VS 2017 on a Windows 7 SP1. I successfully built 35 of the 40 subprojects, and the python interpreter in cpython\PCbuild\amd64 is working fine.

How do I now install this so that users on this m


From joao.moreira.sa.coutinho at gmail.com  Sun Apr 16 13:11:35 2017
From: joao.moreira.sa.coutinho at gmail.com (joao.moreira.sa.coutinho at gmail.com)
Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2017 10:11:35 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Installing a newly-built python on windows
Message-ID: <da34aaa0-a770-461f-9e38-d76075c93fa4@googlegroups.com>

Hi all, 

I've followed the instructions in the 1st chapter (Getting Started) of the Python Developers's Guide to compile python 3.6 from source, using VS 2017 on a Windows 7 SP1. I successfully built 35 of the 40 subprojects, and the python interpreter in cpython\PCbuild\amd64 is working fine. 

How do I now install this, so that users on this machine can use it ? I've found no instrutions on how to do this, can someone point me in the right direction ?

Alternatively, could someone point me to the source code for the python .msi installer ?

Thx,
Joao


From steve+python at pearwood.info  Sun Apr 16 13:13:18 2017
From: steve+python at pearwood.info (Steve D'Aprano)
Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2017 03:13:18 +1000
Subject: Static typing [was Re: Python and the need for speed]
References: <768f9a44-5d90-4756-8a99-821253a491f8@googlegroups.com>
 <58ec9192$0$1602$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <oci97l$10u4$1@gioia.aioe.org>
 <58eceea2$0$1615$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <CAE6NSRD=xU_mNECNBU2w92Br=vgHJJVqSruGFrPB=vrbpkj0Nw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPjBxg_49OD_CNXUAHKjxYsUiLab4s_fCs_Ast3LyymB82zTCA@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.68.1491956914.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <4277c149-e136-4d33-91d5-d011df9149f1@googlegroups.com>
 <58edcdd2$0$1501$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <fdb4a93a-688e-4a3f-bbc3-0df3ee1d2ac7@googlegroups.com>
 <b003e7c4-4bc4-4478-b793-5f43a4360b55@googlegroups.com>
 <58f2f2b1$0$1599$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <15IIA.433240$UY3.424770@fx11.am4>
 <CAO1D73E7fcLeLmn04zpZf9znnod3hQDd1ayziTieBjm=K_jcWA@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.216.1492354823.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <plMIA.1094931$vF2.1030616@fx46.am4>
 <CAO1D73EUtwZ5ZhD3PgrCTRH=nsAxTzv5WWeu1=cEdU4S4hJiYA@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.218.1492359627.2951.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <58f3a630$0$1599$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>

On Mon, 17 Apr 2017 02:20 am, justin walters wrote:

> On Sun, Apr 16, 2017 at 8:46 AM, bartc <bc at freeuk.com> wrote:
> 
>> What were the results with Python on your machine?
> 
> 
> 
> Well, at first I tried to implement it with a generator. I gave up on
> waiting for the program to complete
> after about 6 minutes.

That seems... excessive.

For what it's worth, on my machine (2GB RAM and 1.2GHz CPU) I can add up 100
million ints in 14 seconds:

py> with Stopwatch():
...     sum(range(100000000))
...
4999999950000000
time taken: 14.032116 seconds

which isn't fast but it's within an order of magnitude of fast. What's a
factor of ten between friends?

Of course the built-in sum() is a bit faster than the version Bart uses.
It's almost like he is deliberately writing the least efficient Python code
he can... (or maybe he just doesn't know Python very well). Here's his
version again (slightly adapted):


def add(a, b):
    return a + b

def testfn():
    total = a = b = 0
    for i in range(100000000):
        total += add(a, b)
        a += 1
        b += 2
    return (a, b, total)


And the results:

py> with Stopwatch():
...     testfn()
...
(100000000, 200000000, 14999999850000000)
time taken: 93.543194 seconds


If I can run Bart's test on my slow old computer in a minute and a half, my
guess is that your generator must have been doing something terribly wrong
to still not be complete after six minutes.


The timer I used (Stopwatch) is basically this:

http://code.activestate.com/recipes/577896-benchmark-code-with-the-with-statement/



> After using your code almost exactly I get:
>>>> Sum:  14999999850000000
>>>> ***Execution Time:  17.33912420272827 ***
> 
> That's with Python 3.5 on an Intel I5-6600k 3.9Ghz cpu and 16GB DDR4
> memory.



-- 
Steve
?Cheer up,? they said, ?things could be worse.? So I cheered up, and sure
enough, things got worse.



From python at deborahswanson.net  Sun Apr 16 13:19:58 2017
From: python at deborahswanson.net (Deborah Swanson)
Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2017 10:19:58 -0700
Subject: Namedtuples: some unexpected inconveniences
In-Reply-To: <ocsivh$6kc$1@blaine.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <001001d2b6d5$ace0d230$27b23dae@sambora>

Peter Otten wrote, on Saturday, April 15, 2017 12:44 AM
> 
> Deborah Swanson wrote:
> 
> > I know it's your "ugly" answer, but can I ask what the '**' in
> > 
> > fix = {label: max(values, key=len)}
> > group[:] = [record._replace(**fix) for record in group]
> > 
> > means?
> 
> d = {"a": 1, "b": 2}
> f(**d)
> 
> is equivalent to
> 
> f(a=1, b=2)

Thisis perfect Peter, thank you very much. Now I can understand why your
"ugly" fix works, instead of just seeing in the degugger that
mysteriously it does somehow work.

> so ** is a means to call a function with keyword arguments when you
want to 
> decide about the *names* at runtime. Example:
> 
> >>> def f(a=1, b=2):
> ...     print("a =", a)
> ...     print("b =", b)
> ...     print()
> ... 
> >>> for d in [{"a": 10}, {"b": 42}, {"a": 100, "b": 200}]:
> ...     f(**d)
> ... 
> a = 10
> b = 2
> 
> a = 1
> b = 42
> 
> a = 100
> b = 200

Looks like a very handy type of "kwarg" to know about. It would be nice
if the doc writers weren't so mysterious about what can be used for
"kwargs", or they explained somewhere what the possible "kwargs" can be.
Even in the one index entry for "kwargs", all they say about what it is,
is "A dict of keyword arguments values", and that only applies to the
Signature object. I've see "kwargs" in articles other than for
namedtuples, always mysteriously, with no details on what the
possibilities are and how to use them. (Makes me wonder where you
learned all this ... ;)
 
> Starting from a namedtuple `record`
> 
> record._replace(Location="elswhere")
> 
> creates a new namedtuple with the Location attribute changed to
"elsewhere", 
> and the slice [:] on the left causes all items in the `groups` list to
be 
> replaced with new namedtuples,
> 
> group[:] = [record._replace(Location="elsewhere") for record in group]
> 
> is basically the same as
> 
> tmp = group.copy()
> group.clear()
> for record in tmp:
>     group.append(record_replace(Location="elsewhere"))
> 
> To support not just Location, but also Kind and Notes we need 
> the double asterisk.

I saw this in the debugger, but again didn't really understand why it
was working. So this really clears it up, and I plan to look at it in
the debugger again to be sure I understand it all. Thanks very much.



From steve+python at pearwood.info  Sun Apr 16 13:45:37 2017
From: steve+python at pearwood.info (Steve D'Aprano)
Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2017 03:45:37 +1000
Subject: Looping [was Re: Python and the need for speed]
References: <768f9a44-5d90-4756-8a99-821253a491f8@googlegroups.com>
 <oci97l$10u4$1@gioia.aioe.org>
 <58eceea2$0$1615$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <CAE6NSRD=xU_mNECNBU2w92Br=vgHJJVqSruGFrPB=vrbpkj0Nw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPjBxg_49OD_CNXUAHKjxYsUiLab4s_fCs_Ast3LyymB82zTCA@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.68.1491956914.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <4277c149-e136-4d33-91d5-d011df9149f1@googlegroups.com>
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Message-ID: <58f3adc4$0$1588$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>

On Mon, 17 Apr 2017 03:00 am, Rustom Mody wrote:


> BTW I regard Steven's long list of things that youve missed such as
> regression tests, docs etc to be somewhat off the mark
> To see that try this experiment:
> Just add a feature to python that matters to you along with all these
> requirements: docs, tests etc etc
> Your chances of acceptance may go up marginally but most likely it will
> still not be accepted.

That's very true.

It's not enough to have working code, tests and documentation to get a
feature accepted. I didn't think I implied otherwise, but if it wasn't
clear, I'm sorry.

The feature first needs to have a reason (use-cases). It must be justified.
Unless you are Guido, "because I like it" is not enough.

When you create your own language, like Guido did with Python and Bart has
with his mystery language, your own personal taste is all it takes to get
features included. Everyone else has to justify their request, and have it
accepted by the core developers.

But even once a feature is accepted *in principle* it won't be actually
added to the language until it has tests and documentation. That's the
point I'm trying to get across to Bart. It doesn't matter how trivial the
implementation, or now much of a no-brainer it is, it still needs tests and
documentation.

In the specific case of "loop forever", I'm pretty sure that it would really
struggle to gain community favour. But even if it did, I'm pretty sure the
core devs and Guido in particular would reject it.

As I've said before, I actually like the syntax "repeat forever" -- in the
right context. In Hyperscript, it suits the rest of the language and reads
well. In Python, well, it is like grafting the head of a lion onto the
shoulder of a horse. Lions are handsome beasts, and horses are also very
attractive, individually, but making a freakish chimera of the two is not.

There are lots of ways to design programming languages, and personally I'm
particularly fond of Hyperscript's verbose English-like syntax, Forth and
other RPN stack-based languages, and Python. That's three very different
styles, and I like them all. But not all together at once.

Bart, if your aesthetic taste says different, that's your right, and good on
you. Nobody wants to tell you what syntactic features you should or
shouldn't add to your language.

I just wish you would return the favour to the Python community and stop
insisting that *your* taste is the only good taste.



-- 
Steve
?Cheer up,? they said, ?things could be worse.? So I cheered up, and sure
enough, things got worse.



From bc at freeuk.com  Sun Apr 16 14:21:58 2017
From: bc at freeuk.com (bartc)
Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2017 19:21:58 +0100
Subject: Looping [was Re: Python and the need for speed]
In-Reply-To: <58f39c15$0$1620$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
References: <768f9a44-5d90-4756-8a99-821253a491f8@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.9.1491728745.2951.python-list@python.org>
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 <CAPjBxg_49OD_CNXUAHKjxYsUiLab4s_fCs_Ast3LyymB82zTCA@mail.gmail.com>
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Message-ID: <aDOIA.403982$Iy2.379212@fx28.am4>

On 16/04/2017 17:30, Steve D'Aprano wrote:
> On Sun, 16 Apr 2017 10:06 pm, bartc wrote:

>> (The 30 Loc figure is with support for loops /in
>> general/ already in place, and is for /adding/ a new loop statement, in
>> this case 'while')
>
> What part of *testing* and *documenting* do you not understand?

> Do you have any unit tests for your compiler?  How about regression tests --
> when you fix a bug, do you write a regression test to ensure it never
> creeps back in?
>
> Do you have any documentation for your compiler? Does it include doctests?
> Are there any tutorials that beginners can read?
>
> I'm guessing you don't have any of those things. The code snippet you posted
> doesn't even have any comments.

Here is a function from some old CPython source that appears to be 
something to do with While statements:

static int
validate_while(node *tree)
{
     int nch = NCH(tree);
     int res = (validate_ntype(tree, while_stmt)
                && ((nch == 4) || (nch == 7))
                && validate_name(CHILD(tree, 0), "while")
                && validate_test(CHILD(tree, 1))
                && validate_colon(CHILD(tree, 2))
                && validate_suite(CHILD(tree, 3)));

     if (res && (nch == 7))
         res = (validate_name(CHILD(tree, 4), "else")
                && validate_colon(CHILD(tree, 5))
                && validate_suite(CHILD(tree, 6)));

     return (res);
}

Look, no comments! Are you going to castigate the developers of CPython 
for that? (I guess not.)

Anyway I took out the one or two comments from my posted extract.

> If Python added something like:
>
>     loop N times:
>         ...
>
> we would need *at least* the following:
>
> - a test that `loop` was interpreted as a keyword;
> - a test that `times` was interpreted as a keyword;
> - a test that `loop 0 times` didn't execute the body at all;
> - a test that `loop 1 times` executed the body exactly once;
> - a test that `loop N times` executed the body exactly N times, for
>   a few different (and probably randomly selected) values of N;
> - a test that the statement handled negative integers and floats correctly;
> - a test that the statement handled non-numeric values correctly
>   (probably by raising an exception);
> - a test that `continue` worked as expected inside this statement;
> - a test that `break` worked as expected;
> - a test that `return` worked as expected;
> - a test that `raise` worked as expected;
> - a test that signals will be caught correctly inside the statement;
>
> and possibly more.

Well, I was talking more about just 'loop:', to repeat endlessly. Then 
half of those tests disappear. See, a dedicated statement can make 
things simpler.

The other half would be the same for loops generally as, after you get 
to the compiler output (if I can't call it byte-code), then the chances 
are that the original identity of the loop is lost.

Loop N times could be on top of While or For. Or it could have its own 
implementation where it /knows/ the loop counter is an integer, and a 
64-bit one. See, another optimisation opportunity.

>> BTW supporting a dedicated endless loop was only about 20 lines in
>> another project. Believe me, it is /nothing/. I wish other aspects were
>> just as trivial. It didn't even need a dedicated keyword.
>
> Of course it's "nothing" for you, since by the evidence given you don't
> bother with the hard parts. No comments, no communication with other
> developers (except to gloat over how awesome you are and how stupid their
> choices are), no documentation, no tests.

There are a couple of aspects I like of dynamic languages, which is the 
informality and spontaneity.

The informality with Python seems to have disappeared (with all this 
paperwork, and committees and applications to get more features added; 
about as interesting as making a proposal for a new office block).

While the spontaneity seems to have suffered too if a feature takes 
years to be accepted, even if it would only take an hour or two to add 
(on a smaller project like mine).

At least, I get the benefits immediately. If I had to wait five years 
(when I might be dead anyway) then I might as well wait forever.

>> The loops I use are categorised as:
>>
>> * Endless
>
> That's just a special case of "until some condition is true".

No, because there is no condition to test or think about. There should 
not be one to specify. Python requires that a dummy condition is 
provided to satisfy the language syntax (but internally it compiles to 
an endless loop, as there there is no bureaucracy telling it what to do).

>> * N times
>
> That's just a special case of "over an integer sequence".

No, because you don't care about what that sequence is, nor about having 
to present it as named object to the body of the loop. Another 
optimisation opportunity.

Neither does the user really want to be bothered with writing the name 
of a variable. And providing a range() is overkill, as you just want a 
count not a sequence.

>
>> * Until some condition is true
>
> You missed one: do you check the condition before the first loop, or at the
> end of the loop? That makes a difference between the loop running zero or
> more times, or one or more times.

Both are included. (I suppose you could have 'until' at the head of a loop.)

>
>> * Iterate over an integer sequence
>
> And that in turn is just a special case of iterating over a set of values.

No, because an integer sequence can be optimised; the iteration can be 
simple. Another case for optimisation.

>> * Iterate over a set of values of some object
>
> Out of your five fundamental loops, you missed one important distinction,
> and invented three unimportant ones.

(Ada has a dedicated endless loop. Will you tell them they wasted their 
time, or shall I?)

>> Other languages like to have even more elaborate schemes. That includes
>> advanced uses of Python's for loop, were, for example, there are
>> multiple loop variables.
>>
>> I wonder how much testing that took to get it right?
>
> Probably a lot. And it would be worth it even if it took fifty times more
> testing.

This is for a feature I've never used and only came across by accident?

There must be some real power users on this group. I imagine most would 
be more pedestrian.

-- 
bartc



From rosuav at gmail.com  Sun Apr 16 14:42:09 2017
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2017 04:42:09 +1000
Subject: Looping [was Re: Python and the need for speed]
In-Reply-To: <aDOIA.403982$Iy2.379212@fx28.am4>
References: <768f9a44-5d90-4756-8a99-821253a491f8@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.9.1491728745.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <58ec9192$0$1602$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <oci97l$10u4$1@gioia.aioe.org>
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 <CAE6NSRD=xU_mNECNBU2w92Br=vgHJJVqSruGFrPB=vrbpkj0Nw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPjBxg_49OD_CNXUAHKjxYsUiLab4s_fCs_Ast3LyymB82zTCA@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.68.1491956914.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <4277c149-e136-4d33-91d5-d011df9149f1@googlegroups.com>
 <58edcdd2$0$1501$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <fdb4a93a-688e-4a3f-bbc3-0df3ee1d2ac7@googlegroups.com>
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Message-ID: <CAPTjJmr_TrDtdSLUJZ3XeBAKwmh=+=M7DQzOqfDxmuL1TOSTWg@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Apr 17, 2017 at 4:21 AM, bartc <bc at freeuk.com> wrote:
> Here is a function from some old CPython source that appears to be something
> to do with While statements:
>
> static int
> validate_while(node *tree)
> {
>     int nch = NCH(tree);
>     int res = (validate_ntype(tree, while_stmt)
>                && ((nch == 4) || (nch == 7))
>                && validate_name(CHILD(tree, 0), "while")
>                && validate_test(CHILD(tree, 1))
>                && validate_colon(CHILD(tree, 2))
>                && validate_suite(CHILD(tree, 3)));
>
>     if (res && (nch == 7))
>         res = (validate_name(CHILD(tree, 4), "else")
>                && validate_colon(CHILD(tree, 5))
>                && validate_suite(CHILD(tree, 6)));
>
>     return (res);
> }
>
> Look, no comments! Are you going to castigate the developers of CPython for
> that? (I guess not.)

Can you find the equivalent in the current sources? I think it might be here:

https://github.com/python/cpython/blob/master/Grammar/Grammar#L73

while_stmt: 'while' test ':' suite ['else' ':' suite]

A single, extremely readable line. Abstract, not concrete. And my
suspicion is that the code you're looking at above just might have
been generated from the same kind of grammar file - which means that
it is NOT the "CPython source", but rather an intermediate file. It's
the equivalent of looking at a .pyc file and complaining that it has
no comments.

Want to show me your source for this source? The best I can find (by
searching the git history (which was imported from the hg history) for
'validate_while') is the code prior to this commit:

https://github.com/python/cpython/commit/53595c

And I rather suspect, from some of the other comments in the area,
that this file may have been autogenerated. Even if it wasn't, it was
still not the "primary source", but exists merely to implement
Grammar/Grammar, as linked above.

Next complaint, please.

ChrisA


From bc at freeuk.com  Sun Apr 16 14:43:34 2017
From: bc at freeuk.com (bartc)
Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2017 19:43:34 +0100
Subject: Static typing [was Re: Python and the need for speed]
In-Reply-To: <58f3a630$0$1599$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
References: <768f9a44-5d90-4756-8a99-821253a491f8@googlegroups.com>
 <oci97l$10u4$1@gioia.aioe.org>
 <58eceea2$0$1615$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <CAE6NSRD=xU_mNECNBU2w92Br=vgHJJVqSruGFrPB=vrbpkj0Nw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPjBxg_49OD_CNXUAHKjxYsUiLab4s_fCs_Ast3LyymB82zTCA@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.68.1491956914.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <4277c149-e136-4d33-91d5-d011df9149f1@googlegroups.com>
 <58edcdd2$0$1501$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
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 <58f2f2b1$0$1599$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <15IIA.433240$UY3.424770@fx11.am4>
 <CAO1D73E7fcLeLmn04zpZf9znnod3hQDd1ayziTieBjm=K_jcWA@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.216.1492354823.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <plMIA.1094931$vF2.1030616@fx46.am4>
 <CAO1D73EUtwZ5ZhD3PgrCTRH=nsAxTzv5WWeu1=cEdU4S4hJiYA@mail.gmail.com>
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 <58f3a630$0$1599$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
Message-ID: <rXOIA.271100$c73.201454@fx06.am4>

On 16/04/2017 18:13, Steve D'Aprano wrote:
> On Mon, 17 Apr 2017 02:20 am, justin walters wrote:
>
>> On Sun, Apr 16, 2017 at 8:46 AM, bartc <bc at freeuk.com> wrote:
>>
>>> What were the results with Python on your machine?
>>
>>
>>
>> Well, at first I tried to implement it with a generator. I gave up on
>> waiting for the program to complete
>> after about 6 minutes.
>
> That seems... excessive.
>
> For what it's worth, on my machine (2GB RAM and 1.2GHz CPU) I can add up 100
> million ints in 14 seconds:
>
> py> with Stopwatch():
> ...     sum(range(100000000))
> ...
> 4999999950000000
> time taken: 14.032116 seconds

I'm surprised it took that long. If a 'range' is no longer expanded to a 
list, and 'sum' is built-in, isn't there a formula that can be used to 
sum a sequence? At least when the step is +1.

> factor of ten between friends?
>
> Of course the built-in sum() is a bit faster than the version Bart uses.
> It's almost like he is deliberately writing the least efficient Python code
> he can... (or maybe he just doesn't know Python very well).

Yes, it was low-level code, which is a large part of what optimising a 
language is about. You can't always write just high-level code that 
calls fast built-in routines; sometimes the language has to do some 
actual work of its own!

And the same algorithm (if you can call it that) was used in all the 
examples. That it wasn't doing anything meaningful is not important; it 
is testing the same mechanisms that would be involved in a real program.

-- 
bartc


From rosuav at gmail.com  Sun Apr 16 15:00:34 2017
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2017 05:00:34 +1000
Subject: Static typing [was Re: Python and the need for speed]
In-Reply-To: <rXOIA.271100$c73.201454@fx06.am4>
References: <768f9a44-5d90-4756-8a99-821253a491f8@googlegroups.com>
 <oci97l$10u4$1@gioia.aioe.org>
 <58eceea2$0$1615$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <CAE6NSRD=xU_mNECNBU2w92Br=vgHJJVqSruGFrPB=vrbpkj0Nw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPjBxg_49OD_CNXUAHKjxYsUiLab4s_fCs_Ast3LyymB82zTCA@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.68.1491956914.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <4277c149-e136-4d33-91d5-d011df9149f1@googlegroups.com>
 <58edcdd2$0$1501$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <fdb4a93a-688e-4a3f-bbc3-0df3ee1d2ac7@googlegroups.com>
 <b003e7c4-4bc4-4478-b793-5f43a4360b55@googlegroups.com>
 <58f2f2b1$0$1599$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <15IIA.433240$UY3.424770@fx11.am4>
 <CAO1D73E7fcLeLmn04zpZf9znnod3hQDd1ayziTieBjm=K_jcWA@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.216.1492354823.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <plMIA.1094931$vF2.1030616@fx46.am4>
 <CAO1D73EUtwZ5ZhD3PgrCTRH=nsAxTzv5WWeu1=cEdU4S4hJiYA@mail.gmail.com>
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 <58f3a630$0$1599$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
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Message-ID: <CAPTjJmqX4ys_vk1JE5tmONPZE7gpwEFQ6PPiFH9dxEmuza9N6Q@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Apr 17, 2017 at 4:43 AM, bartc <bc at freeuk.com> wrote:
>>
>> For what it's worth, on my machine (2GB RAM and 1.2GHz CPU) I can add up
>> 100
>> million ints in 14 seconds:
>>
>> py> with Stopwatch():
>> ...     sum(range(100000000))
>> ...
>> 4999999950000000
>> time taken: 14.032116 seconds
>
>
> I'm surprised it took that long. If a 'range' is no longer expanded to a
> list, and 'sum' is built-in, isn't there a formula that can be used to sum a
> sequence? At least when the step is +1.

Sure! If all you care about is winning benchmarks, you could easily
create a sum() that recognizes when it's given a range object. Let's
start with a baseline. I took the code from the link Steven posted
(and renamed Timer to Stopwatch), and:

4999999950000000
time taken: 1.143872 seconds

Ehh, too fast. I'll add another zero onto it.

499999999500000000
time taken: 11.413530 seconds

Better. Now then.

_orig_sum = sum
def sum(iterable, start=0):
    if isinstance(iterable, range) and iterable.step == 1:
        # I don't feel like dealing with non-unity steps
        n = iterable.stop * (iterable.stop - 1) // 2
        if iterable.start:
            n -= iterable.start * (iterable.start + 1) // 2
        return start + n
    return _orig_sum(iterable, start)

499999999500000000
time taken: 0.000016 seconds

Hey look! We win at benchmarks. Of course, to do this, I had to make
every other sum() call slightly slower (maybe not a lot, but slower by
the price of one instance check at best), but what a benefit!

ChrisA


From bc at freeuk.com  Sun Apr 16 15:16:41 2017
From: bc at freeuk.com (bartc)
Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2017 20:16:41 +0100
Subject: Static typing [was Re: Python and the need for speed]
In-Reply-To: <mailman.222.1492369242.2951.python-list@python.org>
References: <768f9a44-5d90-4756-8a99-821253a491f8@googlegroups.com>
 <CAPjBxg_49OD_CNXUAHKjxYsUiLab4s_fCs_Ast3LyymB82zTCA@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.68.1491956914.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <4277c149-e136-4d33-91d5-d011df9149f1@googlegroups.com>
 <58edcdd2$0$1501$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <fdb4a93a-688e-4a3f-bbc3-0df3ee1d2ac7@googlegroups.com>
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 <15IIA.433240$UY3.424770@fx11.am4>
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 <rXOIA.271100$c73.201454@fx06.am4>
 <CAPTjJmqX4ys_vk1JE5tmONPZE7gpwEFQ6PPiFH9dxEmuza9N6Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.222.1492369242.2951.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <uqPIA.773367$fZ.156561@fx41.am4>

On 16/04/2017 20:00, Chris Angelico wrote:
> On Mon, Apr 17, 2017 at 4:43 AM, bartc <bc at freeuk.com> wrote:

> Sure! If all you care about is winning benchmarks,

The benchmarks should be about comparing things. But they have to be 
like for like.

Since this was about the effects of type annotations, it would be 
interesting to see how they would affect timings in the Python example.

(I showed the affect on another language, where I got a factor of about 
100:1 between slowest and fastest by using type declarations. A bit of a 
cheat though as the typed language was really a separate one.)

  you could easily
> create a sum() that recognizes when it's given a range object. Let's
> start with a baseline. I took the code from the link Steven posted
> (and renamed Timer to Stopwatch), and:
>
> 4999999950000000
> time taken: 1.143872 seconds

> Ehh, too fast.

It is fast. My Python 3.4 on Intel 3.2GHz took 6 seconds. Even pypy took 
over 4 seconds.

> time taken: 0.000016 seconds
>
> Hey look! We win at benchmarks.

But it was OK for Steve to 'win' the benchmark by substituting my test 
code with something only vaguely related, and much simpler?

-- 
bartc


From rosuav at gmail.com  Sun Apr 16 15:26:13 2017
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2017 05:26:13 +1000
Subject: Static typing [was Re: Python and the need for speed]
In-Reply-To: <uqPIA.773367$fZ.156561@fx41.am4>
References: <768f9a44-5d90-4756-8a99-821253a491f8@googlegroups.com>
 <CAPjBxg_49OD_CNXUAHKjxYsUiLab4s_fCs_Ast3LyymB82zTCA@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.68.1491956914.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <4277c149-e136-4d33-91d5-d011df9149f1@googlegroups.com>
 <58edcdd2$0$1501$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <fdb4a93a-688e-4a3f-bbc3-0df3ee1d2ac7@googlegroups.com>
 <b003e7c4-4bc4-4478-b793-5f43a4360b55@googlegroups.com>
 <58f2f2b1$0$1599$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <15IIA.433240$UY3.424770@fx11.am4>
 <CAO1D73E7fcLeLmn04zpZf9znnod3hQDd1ayziTieBjm=K_jcWA@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.216.1492354823.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <plMIA.1094931$vF2.1030616@fx46.am4>
 <CAO1D73EUtwZ5ZhD3PgrCTRH=nsAxTzv5WWeu1=cEdU4S4hJiYA@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.218.1492359627.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <58f3a630$0$1599$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <rXOIA.271100$c73.201454@fx06.am4>
 <CAPTjJmqX4ys_vk1JE5tmONPZE7gpwEFQ6PPiFH9dxEmuza9N6Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.222.1492369242.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <uqPIA.773367$fZ.156561@fx41.am4>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmomoPexq3yTCS=L71bemuRfE5R9sbNDsfvNYFwnuhCJdg@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Apr 17, 2017 at 5:16 AM, bartc <bc at freeuk.com> wrote:
> On 16/04/2017 20:00, Chris Angelico wrote:
>>
>> On Mon, Apr 17, 2017 at 4:43 AM, bartc <bc at freeuk.com> wrote:
>
>
>> Sure! If all you care about is winning benchmarks,
>
>
> The benchmarks should be about comparing things. But they have to be like
> for like.

You're the one who suggested using a formula to calculate the sum of a
sequence of integers.

> But it was OK for Steve to 'win' the benchmark by substituting my test
> code with something only vaguely related, and much simpler?

Steven was, far as I can tell, reimplementing the same algorithm in
more Pythonic code. But I'm not sure. I didn't look at the details.

ChrisA


From saxri89 at gmail.com  Sun Apr 16 15:40:40 2017
From: saxri89 at gmail.com (Xristos Xristoou)
Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2017 12:40:40 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: take select request from django from
Message-ID: <5b40d714-a3c0-42a0-8dda-126b652c9e90@googlegroups.com>



hello i have create a select django form with list of images for per user.

How to take that select request in my views.py ?

i have success only to create correct that select list but i need take that select request but i dont know how.

models.py

class MyModel(models.Model):
    user = models.ForeignKey(User, unique=True)
    upload = models.ImageField(upload_to='upload')

views.py

   @login_required(login_url="login/")
    def carlist(request):
        Myform = MyModelForm(user=request.user)
        return render(request,'about.html',{'Myform':Myform})

select django form :

class MyModelForm(ModelForm):
    def __init__(self, *args, **kwargs):
        # extract "user" from kwrags (passed upon form init)
        if 'user' in kwargs:
            self.user = kwargs.pop('user')
        super(MyModelForm, self).__init__(*args, **kwargs)
        # generate the choices as (display, value). 
        # Display is the one that'll be shown to user, value is 
        # the one that'll be sent upon submitting 
        # (the "value" attribute of <option>)
        choices = MyModel.objects.filter(user=self.user).values_list('upload', 'id')
        self.fields['upload'].widget = Select(choices=choices)

    class Meta:
        model = MyModel
        fields = ('upload',)

html :

<form class="" action="" method="post" enctype="multipart/form-data">
{% csrf_token %}
  {{ Myform}}
<input type="submit" name="" value="Submit">

for example Myform now have a list of user images that is correct but after from that i need the select images from the form.

can do it that with my code or not ?


From rurpy at yahoo.com  Sun Apr 16 18:49:50 2017
From: rurpy at yahoo.com (Rurpy)
Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2017 22:49:50 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: Bigotry and hate speech on the python mailing list
References: <314147001.1421155.1492382990025.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <314147001.1421155.1492382990025@mail.yahoo.com>

A couple weeks ago a frequent poster here (Steve D'Aprano <steve+python at pearwood.info>) called another participant an "ugly american" [*1].  This was followed just a couple weeks later with another post from Mr. D'Aprano attacking a participant as "an old man" who can't understand new technology, a blatant example of ageism [*2].

The PSF's Diversity statement [*3] explicitly calls out "age" and "national origin" as examples of personal attributes NOT to be used as verbal weapons.  It is also neither "considerate" or "respectful" as described in the PSF Code of Conduct [*4] to use national origin or age to attack someone.  In both cases it is reasonable to believe that some Americans or older people will, after reading Mr. D'Aprano's posts, feel uncomfortable posting to this list or responding to Mr. D'Aprano specifically on other issues, because they might well be attacked on the same grounds.  Further, failure to censure Mr. D'Apano's comments communicates that bigotry is acceptable here which understandably would give pause to members of other groups often subject to bigotry.

I posted a message in objection [*5] that got no response, I would like to think because it got lost in a long thread, not because bigotry is acceptable here and the CoC is just window dressing.

I also believe the PSF is registered in the US as a tax exempt organization which means it has a legal obligation not to permit discrimination against people based on national origin or age (and other distinctions).

Would someone from the PSF please publicly clarify exactly why the two cases cited are being treated as acceptable discourse in this list?

I am not trying to create a controversy for its own sake; when I first started reading this list many years ago I was appalled by rudeness displayed to newcomers coupled with instant anger by the regulars towards non-regulars at the slightest hint of rudeness (even imagined) towards them.  A decade later things have not changed much.  If I posted a remark about "dirty Chinese" (c.f. "ugly American") I would be (justifiably) slammed and likely ejected from the list.  Or if claims that not understanding new tech is a product of age are ok, then why can't I say disparagingly that someone "programs like a girl"?  When a popular poster here says such things, it is not only given a pass, it is actually defended!  

I am not personally in favor of censorship; the best response to hate speech is a reasoned counter argument IMO.  But if you are going to have a CoC, it must be applied even-handedly.  You cannot apply it when you want to unpopular posters and ignore it when it comes to a one of the clique of regulars.

----
[*1] https://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-list/2017-April/720531.html
[*2] https://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-list/2017-April/721106.html
[*3] https://www.python.org/community/diversity/
[*4] https://www.python.org/psf/codeofconduct/
[*5] https://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-list/2017-April/721135.html


From bc at freeuk.com  Sun Apr 16 19:22:35 2017
From: bc at freeuk.com (bartc)
Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2017 00:22:35 +0100
Subject: Looping [was Re: Python and the need for speed]
In-Reply-To: <mailman.221.1492368134.2951.python-list@python.org>
References: <768f9a44-5d90-4756-8a99-821253a491f8@googlegroups.com>
 <CAE6NSRD=xU_mNECNBU2w92Br=vgHJJVqSruGFrPB=vrbpkj0Nw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPjBxg_49OD_CNXUAHKjxYsUiLab4s_fCs_Ast3LyymB82zTCA@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.68.1491956914.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <4277c149-e136-4d33-91d5-d011df9149f1@googlegroups.com>
 <58edcdd2$0$1501$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <fdb4a93a-688e-4a3f-bbc3-0df3ee1d2ac7@googlegroups.com>
 <54f1685d-1d2d-44b5-869e-a510569ba9d1@googlegroups.com>
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 <1d352948-9029-4b86-b2f1-2b52608109ea@googlegroups.com>
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 <IboIA.298355$0L.88195@fx12.am4>
 <58f2dc43$0$1583$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <_6JIA.1041096$Pm3.778529@fx42.am4>
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 <aDOIA.403982$Iy2.379212@fx28.am4>
 <CAPTjJmr_TrDtdSLUJZ3XeBAKwmh=+=M7DQzOqfDxmuL1TOSTWg@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.221.1492368134.2951.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <01TIA.410770$Iy2.37001@fx28.am4>

On 16/04/2017 19:42, Chris Angelico wrote:
> On Mon, Apr 17, 2017 at 4:21 AM, bartc <bc at freeuk.com> wrote:
>> Here is a function from some old CPython source that appears to be something
>> to do with While statements:
>>
>> static int
>> validate_while(node *tree)
>> {
...
>> Look, no comments! Are you going to castigate the developers of CPython for
>> that? (I guess not.)
>
> Can you find the equivalent in the current sources? I think it might be here:
>
> https://github.com/python/cpython/blob/master/Grammar/Grammar#L73


> while_stmt: 'while' test ':' suite ['else' ':' suite]
>
> A single, extremely readable line. Abstract, not concrete.

How do you know my code fragment wasn't also generated? Since it was 
parsing C, the refs for that language also define the while statement 
quite neatly:

   'while' '(' expression ')' statement

but actually it was done manually. It's part of a suite of functions 
that do things in a common pattern, and would be documented as a set 
rather than line by line. And elsewhere calls to such a function would 
also be part of a chain of tests.

That's if I needed to documented it (but I can't remember how many 
parsers I've done along the same lines since c.1979).

But I've glanced through the CPython code again, and it is quite lightly 
commented. Although sometimes it gets quite chatty.

> Want to show me your source for this source?

The source files I looked at were dated around 2010. I've no idea where 
they came from. I think I'd wanted to compile it, but unfortunately, 
they're not written in C, but a combination of C, make-file, 
compiler-options, and bash-script with a bunch of Linux dependencies.


> Next complaint, please.

No complaint, just saying other projects are sparse on comments too. And 
my code isn't intended as open source.

-- 
bartc



From greg.ewing at canterbury.ac.nz  Sun Apr 16 19:30:59 2017
From: greg.ewing at canterbury.ac.nz (Gregory Ewing)
Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2017 11:30:59 +1200
Subject: Looping [was Re: Python and the need for speed]
In-Reply-To: <_6JIA.1041096$Pm3.778529@fx42.am4>
References: <768f9a44-5d90-4756-8a99-821253a491f8@googlegroups.com>
 <58e9e519$0$1528$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <mailman.9.1491728745.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <58ec9192$0$1602$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <oci97l$10u4$1@gioia.aioe.org>
 <58eceea2$0$1615$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <CAE6NSRD=xU_mNECNBU2w92Br=vgHJJVqSruGFrPB=vrbpkj0Nw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPjBxg_49OD_CNXUAHKjxYsUiLab4s_fCs_Ast3LyymB82zTCA@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.68.1491956914.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <4277c149-e136-4d33-91d5-d011df9149f1@googlegroups.com>
 <58edcdd2$0$1501$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <fdb4a93a-688e-4a3f-bbc3-0df3ee1d2ac7@googlegroups.com>
 <54f1685d-1d2d-44b5-869e-a510569ba9d1@googlegroups.com>
 <lf5a87ln8k9.fsf@ling.helsinki.fi>
 <1d352948-9029-4b86-b2f1-2b52608109ea@googlegroups.com>
 <616ebaec-f140-491c-897e-f2c4b8368d28@googlegroups.com>
 <IboIA.298355$0L.88195@fx12.am4>
 <58f2dc43$0$1583$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <_6JIA.1041096$Pm3.778529@fx42.am4>
Message-ID: <elid5kFqh32U1@mid.individual.net>

bartc wrote:

>  > - describing the various syntax forms;
>  > - explaining how they differ;
>  > - tutorials for beginners showing each form;
> 
> And you don't have to explain how an endless loop should be written as 
> 'while True', meanwhile advising against using 'while 1'?

You don't have to mention it in the reference docs, because it's
deducible from the rest of the language rules. Nor do you need
an explicit test for it, unless there is code in the compiler
specifically to optimise that case.

Tutorials might want to mention it, but it's not strictly
necessary, as a smart enough student could figure it out for
themselves.

> So, how many kinds of sequences do you have in Python?
> 
> lists
> tuples
> namedtuples
> arrays
> bytearrays
> string ?
> memoryview

By far the most commonly used ones are list and tuple. The
rest are designed for specialised uses, and have characteristics
that can't easily be replicated using the fundamental types,
if at all.

Alternative looping constructs, in contrast, have *no*
functional difference, their only advantage being that they
provide a slightly more succint way of expressing certain
things.

>   While a; b; c; d Do e; f; g End
> 
> with the test (the value of 'd') effectively in the middle.

That would be a rather obtuse way of expressing it, though.
It looks like the whole of 'a; b; c; d' is the condition,
whereas you're really only using a, b and c for their side
effects.

The whole point of a loop-and-a-half construct is to make
the condition stand out, despite being in the middle.

This is actually the only additional looping construct that
I wouldn't mind seeing. It gets brought up now and then;
last time, if I recall, the discussion fizzled out due to
a feeling that you don't really need it much in Python,
because those kinds of loops are usually better expressed
using an iterator.

> Most of my loops start off as endless loops, until I can determine the 
> actual terminating condition, and where it best goes.

Interesting. My experience is quite different. Most of
the loops I write start off with me thinking "Now I want
to do this for each element of this collection", which
maps straight to a Python for-loop.

In the rare cases where I do use a while loop, usually I
have a fairly good idea what the terminating condition is
going to be. Cases where a significant amount of head
scratching is needed to figure it out are pretty rare.
But maybe you're working on different kinds of problems
from me.

> Sometimes they stay as endless loops.

By design or by accident? :-)

Every program I've every written that had a deliberate
endless loop in it had exactly *one* of them, at the top
level. And I knew it would be that way before I started
writing it. (And since the only way to stop it would be
ctrl-C or equivalent, I only write such things if they're
throwaway tools for my own use.)

-- 
Greg


From ebmodeb at gmail.com  Sun Apr 16 21:35:57 2017
From: ebmodeb at gmail.com (Eb Guenther)
Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2017 18:35:57 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: python folder tree for windows 10
Message-ID: <e4809245-1b3e-4a38-a50a-e21d18fd0586@googlegroups.com>

I'm having difficulty matching the Python docs suggested folders for Python stuff with where I actually find things (or not find things)

Especially for packages. I've got a packages folder in my installation folder, but none in the apps data folder, though the docs point there.

Could someone provide a folder tree for where to expect python components and packages in various states (installed, downloaded, uninstalled, etc).

With full path, please.

Thanks very much,


Eb
Python Newbie


From steve+python at pearwood.info  Sun Apr 16 22:00:06 2017
From: steve+python at pearwood.info (Steve D'Aprano)
Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2017 12:00:06 +1000
Subject: Looping [was Re: Python and the need for speed]
References: <54f1685d-1d2d-44b5-869e-a510569ba9d1@googlegroups.com>
 <lf5a87ln8k9.fsf@ling.helsinki.fi>
 <1d352948-9029-4b86-b2f1-2b52608109ea@googlegroups.com>
 <616ebaec-f140-491c-897e-f2c4b8368d28@googlegroups.com>
 <IboIA.298355$0L.88195@fx12.am4>
 <58f2dc43$0$1583$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <_6JIA.1041096$Pm3.778529@fx42.am4>
 <fe03f274-dab8-4510-8039-03e1c5f82527@googlegroups.com>
 <nLKIA.897491$w46.587707@fx39.am4>
 <58f3a04b$0$1591$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <p6i7fc5l1fukm168c7cq0g0loiut01v3vm@4ax.com>
 <mailman.224.1492372201.2951.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <58f421a7$0$1618$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>

On Mon, 17 Apr 2017 05:49 am, Dennis Lee Bieber wrote:

> On Mon, 17 Apr 2017 02:48:08 +1000, Steve D'Aprano
> <steve+python at pearwood.info> declaimed the following:
> 
>>On Sun, 16 Apr 2017 11:57 pm, bartc wrote:
>>
>>> But people just don't want it.
>>
>>Damn straight. Now you get it. It's not about how easy it is to implement,
>>it's about whether it is needed and wanted. It isn't needed, and it isn't
>>wanted.
>>
> 
> Let's go all the way, and just get rid of "while <cond>".

Sure, why not? If it's your language, you can make it as minimalist or
maximalist as you like. You get to choose.

Python's not your language, so it's not your choice for Python. But you can
always create your own language and implement as many or as few features as
you like.

Guido likes while loops with a condition, and Python is Guido's language.

And of course, since Python has had while loops with a condition for over 20
years now, backwards compatibility precludes removing it.




-- 
Steve
?Cheer up,? they said, ?things could be worse.? So I cheered up, and sure
enough, things got worse.



From steve+python at pearwood.info  Sun Apr 16 22:04:47 2017
From: steve+python at pearwood.info (Steve D'Aprano)
Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2017 12:04:47 +1000
Subject: Static typing [was Re: Python and the need for speed]
References: <768f9a44-5d90-4756-8a99-821253a491f8@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.68.1491956914.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <4277c149-e136-4d33-91d5-d011df9149f1@googlegroups.com>
 <58edcdd2$0$1501$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <fdb4a93a-688e-4a3f-bbc3-0df3ee1d2ac7@googlegroups.com>
 <b003e7c4-4bc4-4478-b793-5f43a4360b55@googlegroups.com>
 <58f2f2b1$0$1599$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <15IIA.433240$UY3.424770@fx11.am4>
 <CAO1D73E7fcLeLmn04zpZf9znnod3hQDd1ayziTieBjm=K_jcWA@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.216.1492354823.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <plMIA.1094931$vF2.1030616@fx46.am4>
 <CAO1D73EUtwZ5ZhD3PgrCTRH=nsAxTzv5WWeu1=cEdU4S4hJiYA@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.218.1492359627.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <58f3a630$0$1599$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <rXOIA.271100$c73.201454@fx06.am4>
 <CAPTjJmqX4ys_vk1JE5tmONPZE7gpwEFQ6PPiFH9dxEmuza9N6Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.222.1492369242.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <uqPIA.773367$fZ.156561@fx41.am4>
Message-ID: <58f422c0$0$1618$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>

On Mon, 17 Apr 2017 05:16 am, bartc wrote:

> But it was OK for Steve to 'win' the benchmark by substituting my test
> code with something only vaguely related, and much simpler?

Okay, you're now being obnoxious, and telling lies about me.

What I said was 

"FOR WHAT IT'S WORTH [emphasis added], on my machine (2GB RAM and 1.2GHz
CPU) I can add up 100 million ints in 14 seconds"

which is just to give an indication of the speed of my machine. I wasn't
trying to "win" your stupid, inefficient benchmark. If I was, would I then
have run *your code* and report a time nearly three times longer than you?

"time taken: 93.543194 seconds"

How is this me winning by running different code?

You also ignored the entire point of my post, which is to comment on
Justin's generator version:

"If I can run Bart's test on my slow old computer in a minute and a half, my
guess is that your generator must have been doing something terribly wrong
to still not be complete after six minutes."

and misrepresent me as doing something underhanded and dishonorable
to "win".

And that, Bart, is dirty pool. I don't think you're arguing in good faith.

I've spent months defending your right to criticise Python on this forum
even when others have wanted you banned (an excessive reaction) or have
kill-filed you so they don't see your posts. Even when I disagree with your
conclusions, even if I think they are terribly naive, the sorts of things a
lone cowboy developer can get away with but not suitable for a mature,
widely used language like Python, I've respected your point of view.

But at this point, I think *you* are being dishonest.




-- 
Steve
?Cheer up,? they said, ?things could be worse.? So I cheered up, and sure
enough, things got worse.



From no.email at nospam.invalid  Mon Apr 17 02:18:20 2017
From: no.email at nospam.invalid (Paul Rubin)
Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2017 23:18:20 -0700
Subject: Static typing [was Re: Python and the need for speed]
References: <768f9a44-5d90-4756-8a99-821253a491f8@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.5.1491710256.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <58e9e519$0$1528$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <mailman.9.1491728745.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <58ec9192$0$1602$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <oci97l$10u4$1@gioia.aioe.org>
 <58eceea2$0$1615$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <CAE6NSRD=xU_mNECNBU2w92Br=vgHJJVqSruGFrPB=vrbpkj0Nw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPjBxg_49OD_CNXUAHKjxYsUiLab4s_fCs_Ast3LyymB82zTCA@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.68.1491956914.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <4277c149-e136-4d33-91d5-d011df9149f1@googlegroups.com>
 <58edcdd2$0$1501$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <fdb4a93a-688e-4a3f-bbc3-0df3ee1d2ac7@googlegroups.com>
 <b003e7c4-4bc4-4478-b793-5f43a4360b55@googlegroups.com>
 <58f2f2b1$0$1599$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
Message-ID: <877f2jpnf7.fsf@nightsong.com>

Steve D'Aprano <steve+python at pearwood.info> writes:
> Since it is *optional*, it is only a hint, not a fact. You can tell the
> compiler that you believe that n will be an int, but it's not guaranteed.

The runtime could check at the entry to the function that n is an int,
and then it wouldn't have to keep re-checking on the inside of a loop.
That's what a JIT compiler does in the absence of annotations, more or
less; but the annotations make life easier for ahead-of-time compilers.
Again this type of thing has been standard in Lisp since the 1960's.


From marko at pacujo.net  Mon Apr 17 03:11:40 2017
From: marko at pacujo.net (Marko Rauhamaa)
Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2017 10:11:40 +0300
Subject: Looping [was Re: Python and the need for speed]
References: <768f9a44-5d90-4756-8a99-821253a491f8@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.9.1491728745.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <58ec9192$0$1602$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <oci97l$10u4$1@gioia.aioe.org>
 <58eceea2$0$1615$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <CAE6NSRD=xU_mNECNBU2w92Br=vgHJJVqSruGFrPB=vrbpkj0Nw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPjBxg_49OD_CNXUAHKjxYsUiLab4s_fCs_Ast3LyymB82zTCA@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.68.1491956914.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <4277c149-e136-4d33-91d5-d011df9149f1@googlegroups.com>
 <58edcdd2$0$1501$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <fdb4a93a-688e-4a3f-bbc3-0df3ee1d2ac7@googlegroups.com>
 <54f1685d-1d2d-44b5-869e-a510569ba9d1@googlegroups.com>
 <lf5a87ln8k9.fsf@ling.helsinki.fi>
 <1d352948-9029-4b86-b2f1-2b52608109ea@googlegroups.com>
 <616ebaec-f140-491c-897e-f2c4b8368d28@googlegroups.com>
 <IboIA.298355$0L.88195@fx12.am4>
 <58f2dc43$0$1583$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <_6JIA.1041096$Pm3.778529@fx42.am4> <elid5kFqh32U1@mid.individual.net>
Message-ID: <87shl7mrtf.fsf@elektro.pacujo.net>

Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing at canterbury.ac.nz>:

> bartc wrote:
>> Most of my loops start off as endless loops, until I can determine
>> the actual terminating condition, and where it best goes.
>
> Interesting. My experience is quite different. Most of the loops I
> write start off with me thinking "Now I want to do this for each
> element of this collection", which maps straight to a Python for-loop.
>
> In the rare cases where I do use a while loop, usually I have a fairly
> good idea what the terminating condition is going to be.

Here's statistics from a medium-sized project of mine:

   while True:            34
   while <condition>:     39
   for ... in ...:       158


Marko


From steve+python at pearwood.info  Mon Apr 17 05:31:26 2017
From: steve+python at pearwood.info (Steve D'Aprano)
Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2017 19:31:26 +1000
Subject: Python's help() function is awesome
Message-ID: <58f48b6f$0$1599$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>

If you're not using the help() command in the interactive interpreter,
you're missing out on a lot.

I recently discovered that help() is even cleverer than I knew. I knew it
picked up on objects' doc strings, but what happens if the object doesn't
have a doc string?

Let's find out!

Here's a tiny module with a couple of toy functions. Save this
as "module.py":

# --- cut here ? ----

def greet(name='world'):
    """Hello world, with optional name."""
    print ("Hello, %s" % name)

# The insult() function insults the caller.
# Pass the number of insults to use, and an optional name.
def insult(number, name=None):
    if name is None or name == '':
        name = 'Anonymous Coward'
    print(name)
    for i in range(number):
        if i%2 == 0:
            print("Your mother smells of elderberries!")
        else:
            print("And your father was a hamster!")

def goodbye():
    # Say goodbye.
    print("Goodbye cruel world!")

# --- ? ---


Now start up the interactive interpreter and import the module:

py> import module
py> help(module)


and you should see something like this:


Help on module module:

NAME
    module

FUNCTIONS
    goodbye()

    greet(name='world')
        Hello world, with optional name.

    insult(number, name=None)
        # The insult() function insults the caller.
        # Pass the number of insults to use, and an optional name.

FILE
    /home/steve/module.py



Not only does it pick up the docstring for greet(), but it picks up the
comment just prior to the function definition of insult(). Alas, as of
Python 3.5 it doesn't recognise the comments in the goodbye() function --
perhaps because they're conceptually part of the implementation, not the
interface.




-- 
Steve
?Cheer up,? they said, ?things could be worse.? So I cheered up, and sure
enough, things got worse.



From marko at pacujo.net  Mon Apr 17 05:39:34 2017
From: marko at pacujo.net (Marko Rauhamaa)
Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2017 12:39:34 +0300
Subject: Bigotry and hate speech on the python mailing list
References: <314147001.1421155.1492382990025.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
 <314147001.1421155.1492382990025@mail.yahoo.com>
 <mailman.234.1492420307.2951.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <87efwrs78p.fsf@elektro.pacujo.net>

Rurpy <rurpy at yahoo.com>:

> If I posted a remark about "dirty Chinese" (c.f. "ugly American") I
> would be (justifiably) slammed and likely ejected from the list. Or if
> claims that not understanding new tech is a product of age are ok,
> then why can't I say disparagingly that someone "programs like a
> girl"? When a popular poster here says such things, it is not only
> given a pass, it is actually defended!

In my experience, the bar for banning participants is pretty high, and
rightly so. Careless statements, insults or bigotry haven't been enough,
but repeated, personal harassment of an individual have resulted in
action.

You are free to set a bar of your own. It's called plonking.

BTW, as a middle-aged American, I don't get offended by slurs against
Americans or old people. I first try to see if there's a grain of truth
behind the generalization, and if not, I will simply have a lower
opinion of the judgement of whoever said it.

Cultures are real, distinct things, and every culture has
(objectively/subjectively) less desirable aspects. Age does have
measurable effects on our performance. Making generalizations doesn't
automatically make a statement "hate speech."

Let me offer a bigoted joke I heard the other day:

   Wife to programmer: "Go to the store and get a gallon of milk. If
   they have eggs, get six."

   ...

   Wife to programmer: "Why on earth did you buy six gallons of milk?"

   Programmer: "They had eggs."


Marko


From ben+python at benfinney.id.au  Mon Apr 17 06:38:55 2017
From: ben+python at benfinney.id.au (Ben Finney)
Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2017 20:38:55 +1000
Subject: Bigotry and hate speech on the python mailing list
References: <314147001.1421155.1492382990025.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
 <314147001.1421155.1492382990025@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <85lgqzb9og.fsf@benfinney.id.au>

Rurpy via Python-list <python-list at python.org> writes:

> A couple weeks ago a frequent poster here (Steve D'Aprano
> <steve+python at pearwood.info>) called another participant an "ugly
> american" [*1].

He gave no explicit reference, and so I can see why you would think he
did what you describe.

In fact, though, Steven in the message you link to stated:

    If you think that all these people, and hundreds of millions more,
    will just "quietly change the filename" to ASCII because you're too
    lazy, self-centred and arrogant to move on from 1963, then you truly
    are an example of the Ugly American.

Again, it's not stated explicitly what Steven is referring to, so I can
see why you would initially be confused.

But by now, with plenty of time to look into what was actually being
discussed, surely you have noticed that Steven was *not* using physical
appearance as an insult; nor was he using mere national origin as an
insult.

Rather, the message is a reference to the Ugly American. Note the
capitals Steven used; that is how a title is spelled.

The title ?Ugly American? is a reference to a stereotypical *attitude
and behaviour*, given that name by the 1958 political novel of the same
name <URL:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Ugly_American>.

This is not using ugliness, nor American nationality, as an insult. It
is a reference to objectionable behaviour as Steven described.

Whether you agree that the behaviour described is objectionable, you can
hopefully agree that naming objectionable behaviour to discourage it, is
not in itself something to be discouraged.


I can fault Steven for assuming that the reader would, by the novel's
title alone, know of a mid-20th century novel reference or the
stereotype it describes. That's not a breach of PSF CoC.

I can fault Steven for assuming that those who *don't* get the reference
would not leap to the conclusion you've leapt to: that he was using
national origin as an insult. That assumption on his part is
unfortunate, and perhaps an apology would be good. Regardless of that,
it is not a breach of the PSF CoC.

What I can't fault him for is using national origin as a verbal weapon.
He simply did not do that in the message you link to.

> Further, failure to censure Mr. D'Apano's comments communicates that
> bigotry is acceptable here which understandably would give pause to
> members of other groups often subject to bigotry.

Similarly, my elaboration here ? to give it the prominence you rightly
say that the original sub-thread did not achieve ? should demonstrate to
you that D'Aprano's comments did not constitute bigotry against any
national origin.

The charge of bigotry is a strong one here, rightly so, and I think you
for taking it seriously. Will you drop that charge now? If you won't, I
think you need to show how this analysis is incorrect.

-- 
 \           ?Let others praise ancient times; I am glad I was born in |
  `\                                      these.? ?Ovid (43 BCE?18 CE) |
_o__)                                                                  |
Ben Finney



From steve+python at pearwood.info  Mon Apr 17 06:52:43 2017
From: steve+python at pearwood.info (Steve D'Aprano)
Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2017 20:52:43 +1000
Subject: Static typing [was Re: Python and the need for speed]
References: <768f9a44-5d90-4756-8a99-821253a491f8@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.5.1491710256.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <58e9e519$0$1528$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <mailman.9.1491728745.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <58ec9192$0$1602$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <oci97l$10u4$1@gioia.aioe.org>
 <58eceea2$0$1615$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <CAE6NSRD=xU_mNECNBU2w92Br=vgHJJVqSruGFrPB=vrbpkj0Nw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPjBxg_49OD_CNXUAHKjxYsUiLab4s_fCs_Ast3LyymB82zTCA@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.68.1491956914.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <4277c149-e136-4d33-91d5-d011df9149f1@googlegroups.com>
 <58edcdd2$0$1501$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <fdb4a93a-688e-4a3f-bbc3-0df3ee1d2ac7@googlegroups.com>
 <b003e7c4-4bc4-4478-b793-5f43a4360b55@googlegroups.com>
 <58f2f2b1$0$1599$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
Message-ID: <58f49e7d$0$1590$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>

On Sun, 16 Apr 2017 02:27 pm, Steve D'Aprano wrote:

> Are you aware that optional static typing CANNOT be used for optimization?

I think I've over-stated that. Considerably. In other words, I was wrong.

As Steve Yegge points out, dynamic languages like Smalltalk and Lisp were,
back in the 1980s, heavily optimized and were competitive with
statically-typed languages like C:

http://steve-yegge.blogspot.com.au/2008/05/dynamic-languages-strike-back.html

While this is true:

> Since it is *optional*, it is only a hint, not a fact. You can tell the
> compiler that you believe that n will be an int, but it's not guaranteed.
> As the Dude says, the type hint is
> 
>     that's, like, only your opinion man
> 
> and the compiler cannot trust it. It must still guard the operation with a
> runtime check that n actually is an int, 

The conclusion that I drew:

> and so you lose most or all of 
> the benefit of telling the compiler that it's an int. 

is not necessarily the case. If you're doing lots of little operations on
disparate variables, with lots and lots of guard checks and not much
optimized code, it will go badly for you, but on the other hand for big
loops with only a few up-front checks and predictable types, there may be
opportunities for optimization.

Honestly, I'm not quite sure what I was thinking: that sort of "optimized
code with a guard" is exactly what Psycho does, and what FATPython is
hoping to bring to CPython some day.

At the present time, the state of the art of gradual typing is still keeping
the emphasis on optional static typing for *correctness*, not optimization:

http://wphomes.soic.indiana.edu/jsiek/what-is-gradual-typing/

but research does continue into using gradual typing for optimizations:

http://dl.acm.org/citation.cfm?id=2069175


[...]
> Python's gradual typing is not about optimization, it is about testing
> program correctness and helping to find bugs at compile time*. 

That's the motivation for MyPy.




-- 
Steve
?Cheer up,? they said, ?things could be worse.? So I cheered up, and sure
enough, things got worse.



From steve+python at pearwood.info  Mon Apr 17 06:53:04 2017
From: steve+python at pearwood.info (Steve D'Aprano)
Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2017 20:53:04 +1000
Subject: Static typing [was Re: Python and the need for speed]
References: <768f9a44-5d90-4756-8a99-821253a491f8@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.5.1491710256.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <58e9e519$0$1528$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <mailman.9.1491728745.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <58ec9192$0$1602$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <oci97l$10u4$1@gioia.aioe.org>
 <58eceea2$0$1615$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <CAE6NSRD=xU_mNECNBU2w92Br=vgHJJVqSruGFrPB=vrbpkj0Nw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPjBxg_49OD_CNXUAHKjxYsUiLab4s_fCs_Ast3LyymB82zTCA@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.68.1491956914.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <4277c149-e136-4d33-91d5-d011df9149f1@googlegroups.com>
 <58edcdd2$0$1501$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <fdb4a93a-688e-4a3f-bbc3-0df3ee1d2ac7@googlegroups.com>
 <b003e7c4-4bc4-4478-b793-5f43a4360b55@googlegroups.com>
 <58f2f2b1$0$1599$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <877f2jpnf7.fsf@nightsong.com>
Message-ID: <58f49e92$0$1590$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>

On Mon, 17 Apr 2017 04:18 pm, Paul Rubin wrote:

> Steve D'Aprano <steve+python at pearwood.info> writes:
>> Since it is *optional*, it is only a hint, not a fact. You can tell the
>> compiler that you believe that n will be an int, but it's not guaranteed.
> 
> The runtime could check at the entry to the function that n is an int,
> and then it wouldn't have to keep re-checking on the inside of a loop.
> That's what a JIT compiler does in the absence of annotations, more or
> less; 

Funnily enough, in the very post you quote, I did write:

"There are clever Just In Time compiler tricks that can optimize the code,
which is what Psycho did and PyPy still does, but they don't need type
hints."

The reason being that at runtime the compiler knows the type of the value
and the type hint is redundant.

On the other hand, there's Cython. Cython claims *not* to be a JIT compiler,
but I don't really understand why. As I understand it, Cython can operate
in two ways:

(1) as a Python interpreter, with some optimizations switched on or off at
runtime according to the types and/or values actually used by the program;

(2) as a pseudo-Python to C compiler, allowing you to write Python-ish code
that is compiled to C (plus a Python runtime for anything that's too hard
to translate into C).

I'm not sure why the Cython devs maintain this is not a JIT compiler.
Perhaps I misunderstand something.


> but the annotations make life easier for ahead-of-time compilers. 
> Again this type of thing has been standard in Lisp since the 1960's.

Indeed it has. The state of the art of optimizations for dynamically typed
languages has been badly neglected for many years. Fortunately in the last
decade or so there's been a lot more interest in this.

See, for example, Steve Yegge:

http://steve-yegge.blogspot.com.au/2008/05/dynamic-languages-strike-back.html



-- 
Steve
?Cheer up,? they said, ?things could be worse.? So I cheered up, and sure
enough, things got worse.



From rustompmody at gmail.com  Mon Apr 17 08:34:13 2017
From: rustompmody at gmail.com (Rustom Mody)
Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2017 05:34:13 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Bigotry and hate speech on the python mailing list
In-Reply-To: <mailman.235.1492425549.2951.python-list@python.org>
References: <314147001.1421155.1492382990025.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
 <314147001.1421155.1492382990025@mail.yahoo.com>
 <85lgqzb9og.fsf@benfinney.id.au>
 <mailman.235.1492425549.2951.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <0c720885-1730-470f-a494-575308ef199e@googlegroups.com>

On Monday, April 17, 2017 at 4:09:34 PM UTC+5:30, Ben Finney wrote:
> The charge of bigotry is a strong one here, rightly so, and I think you
> for taking it seriously. Will you drop that charge now? If you won't, I
> think you need to show how this analysis is incorrect.

On the same day that (I saw) this original complaint, I also saw this article
http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2017/04/the-duke-lacrosse-scandal-and-the-birth-of-the-alt-right.html

which I believe serves as an accurate diagnoser for the malaise ? political 
and then spreading ? of our times


From rustompmody at gmail.com  Mon Apr 17 08:41:03 2017
From: rustompmody at gmail.com (Rustom Mody)
Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2017 05:41:03 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Bigotry and hate speech on the python mailing list
In-Reply-To: <87efwrs78p.fsf@elektro.pacujo.net>
References: <314147001.1421155.1492382990025.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
 <314147001.1421155.1492382990025@mail.yahoo.com>
 <mailman.234.1492420307.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <87efwrs78p.fsf@elektro.pacujo.net>
Message-ID: <72ea35ee-394d-413e-b63c-a82375b67727@googlegroups.com>

On Monday, April 17, 2017 at 3:09:44 PM UTC+5:30, Marko Rauhamaa wrote:
> Rurpy :
> 
> > If I posted a remark about "dirty Chinese" (c.f. "ugly American") I
> > would be (justifiably) slammed and likely ejected from the list. Or if
> > claims that not understanding new tech is a product of age are ok,
> > then why can't I say disparagingly that someone "programs like a
> > girl"? When a popular poster here says such things, it is not only
> > given a pass, it is actually defended!
> 
> In my experience, the bar for banning participants is pretty high, and
> rightly so. Careless statements, insults or bigotry haven't been enough,
> but repeated, personal harassment of an individual have resulted in
> action.
> 
> You are free to set a bar of your own. It's called plonking.
> 
> BTW, as a middle-aged American, I don't get offended by slurs against
> Americans or old people. I first try to see if there's a grain of truth
> behind the generalization, and if not, I will simply have a lower
> opinion of the judgement of whoever said it.
> 
> Cultures are real, distinct things, and every culture has
> (objectively/subjectively) less desirable aspects. Age does have
> measurable effects on our performance. Making generalizations doesn't
> automatically make a statement "hate speech."
> 
> Let me offer a bigoted joke I heard the other day:
> 
>    Wife to programmer: "Go to the store and get a gallon of milk. If
>    they have eggs, get six."
> 
>    ...
> 
>    Wife to programmer: "Why on earth did you buy six gallons of milk?"
> 
>    Programmer: "They had eggs."

Thanks Marko... Hilarious [Sent it to some friends]
I personally feel racism (or in this case more technically communalism)
needs to be celebrated not disparaged


From tjreedy at udel.edu  Mon Apr 17 09:03:00 2017
From: tjreedy at udel.edu (Terry Reedy)
Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2017 09:03:00 -0400
Subject: Python's help() function is awesome
In-Reply-To: <58f48b6f$0$1599$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
References: <58f48b6f$0$1599$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
Message-ID: <od2ee0$eno$1@blaine.gmane.org>

On 4/17/2017 5:31 AM, Steve D'Aprano wrote:
> If you're not using the help() command in the interactive interpreter,
> you're missing out on a lot.
>
> I recently discovered that help() is even cleverer than I knew. I knew it
> picked up on objects' doc strings, but what happens if the object doesn't
> have a doc string?
>
> Let's find out!
>
> Here's a tiny module with a couple of toy functions. Save this
> as "module.py":
>
> # --- cut here ? ----
>
> def greet(name='world'):
>     """Hello world, with optional name."""
>     print ("Hello, %s" % name)
>
> # The insult() function insults the caller.
> # Pass the number of insults to use, and an optional name.
> def insult(number, name=None):
>     if name is None or name == '':
>         name = 'Anonymous Coward'
>     print(name)
>     for i in range(number):
>         if i%2 == 0:
>             print("Your mother smells of elderberries!")
>         else:
>             print("And your father was a hamster!")
>
> def goodbye():
>     # Say goodbye.
>     print("Goodbye cruel world!")
>
> # --- ? ---
>
>
> Now start up the interactive interpreter and import the module:
>
> py> import module
> py> help(module)
>
>
> and you should see something like this:
>
>
> Help on module module:
>
> NAME
>     module
>
> FUNCTIONS
>     goodbye()
>
>     greet(name='world')
>         Hello world, with optional name.
>
>     insult(number, name=None)
>         # The insult() function insults the caller.
>         # Pass the number of insults to use, and an optional name.

When I ran the module instead of importing it, help(insult) printed the 
same.  The pydoc function wrapped by help must be going back to the 
source, as I believe that comments are left behind when the source is 
compiled.  I did not know this either.  A comment before the def must 
have once been standard.

> FILE
>     /home/steve/module.py
>
>
>
> Not only does it pick up the docstring for greet(), but it picks up the
> comment just prior to the function definition of insult(). Alas, as of
> Python 3.5 it doesn't recognise the comments in the goodbye() function --
> perhaps because they're conceptually part of the implementation, not the
> interface.


-- 
Terry Jan Reedy




From tjreedy at udel.edu  Mon Apr 17 09:05:20 2017
From: tjreedy at udel.edu (Terry Reedy)
Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2017 09:05:20 -0400
Subject: Looping [was Re: Python and the need for speed]
In-Reply-To: <87shl7mrtf.fsf@elektro.pacujo.net>
References: <768f9a44-5d90-4756-8a99-821253a491f8@googlegroups.com>
 <58ec9192$0$1602$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <oci97l$10u4$1@gioia.aioe.org>
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 <CAE6NSRD=xU_mNECNBU2w92Br=vgHJJVqSruGFrPB=vrbpkj0Nw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPjBxg_49OD_CNXUAHKjxYsUiLab4s_fCs_Ast3LyymB82zTCA@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.68.1491956914.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <4277c149-e136-4d33-91d5-d011df9149f1@googlegroups.com>
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 <1d352948-9029-4b86-b2f1-2b52608109ea@googlegroups.com>
 <616ebaec-f140-491c-897e-f2c4b8368d28@googlegroups.com>
 <IboIA.298355$0L.88195@fx12.am4>
 <58f2dc43$0$1583$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <_6JIA.1041096$Pm3.778529@fx42.am4> <elid5kFqh32U1@mid.individual.net>
 <87shl7mrtf.fsf@elektro.pacujo.net>
Message-ID: <od2eib$eno$2@blaine.gmane.org>

On 4/17/2017 3:11 AM, Marko Rauhamaa wrote:
> Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing at canterbury.ac.nz>:
>
>> bartc wrote:
>>> Most of my loops start off as endless loops, until I can determine
>>> the actual terminating condition, and where it best goes.
>>
>> Interesting. My experience is quite different. Most of the loops I
>> write start off with me thinking "Now I want to do this for each
>> element of this collection", which maps straight to a Python for-loop.
>>
>> In the rare cases where I do use a while loop, usually I have a fairly
>> good idea what the terminating condition is going to be.
>
> Here's statistics from a medium-sized project of mine:
>
>    while True:            34
>    while <condition>:     39
>    for ... in ...:       158

As I posted previously, the ratio of for-loops in the stdlib is about 7 
to 1.

-- 
Terry Jan Reedy



From marko at pacujo.net  Mon Apr 17 12:35:00 2017
From: marko at pacujo.net (Marko Rauhamaa)
Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2017 19:35:00 +0300
Subject: Looping [was Re: Python and the need for speed]
References: <768f9a44-5d90-4756-8a99-821253a491f8@googlegroups.com>
 <oci97l$10u4$1@gioia.aioe.org>
 <58eceea2$0$1615$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <CAE6NSRD=xU_mNECNBU2w92Br=vgHJJVqSruGFrPB=vrbpkj0Nw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPjBxg_49OD_CNXUAHKjxYsUiLab4s_fCs_Ast3LyymB82zTCA@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.68.1491956914.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <4277c149-e136-4d33-91d5-d011df9149f1@googlegroups.com>
 <58edcdd2$0$1501$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <fdb4a93a-688e-4a3f-bbc3-0df3ee1d2ac7@googlegroups.com>
 <54f1685d-1d2d-44b5-869e-a510569ba9d1@googlegroups.com>
 <lf5a87ln8k9.fsf@ling.helsinki.fi>
 <1d352948-9029-4b86-b2f1-2b52608109ea@googlegroups.com>
 <616ebaec-f140-491c-897e-f2c4b8368d28@googlegroups.com>
 <IboIA.298355$0L.88195@fx12.am4>
 <58f2dc43$0$1583$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <_6JIA.1041096$Pm3.778529@fx42.am4> <elid5kFqh32U1@mid.individual.net>
 <87shl7mrtf.fsf@elektro.pacujo.net> <od2eib$eno$2@blaine.gmane.org>
 <mailman.237.1492434618.2951.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <87k26jvvpn.fsf@elektro.pacujo.net>

Terry Reedy <tjreedy at udel.edu>:

> On 4/17/2017 3:11 AM, Marko Rauhamaa wrote:
>> Here's statistics from a medium-sized project of mine:
>>
>>    while True:            34
>>    while <condition>:     39
>>    for ... in ...:       158
>
> As I posted previously, the ratio of for-loops in the stdlib is about 7
> to 1.

What I notice in my numbers is that about one half of my while loops are
"while True", and about a third of my loops are while loops.


Marko


From medina.rc at gmail.com  Mon Apr 17 13:19:20 2017
From: medina.rc at gmail.com (Richard Medina)
Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2017 10:19:20 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: creating vector from df.intertuples
Message-ID: <973b06e1-194e-4128-8202-1d22f214b325@googlegroups.com>

I want to create a vector from a dataframe in a loop. Then I want to create a new column from this vector.

    for row in df.itertuples():
        mm  = str(row.t)  #selecting "t" column
        nn = get_sec(mm) #this function converts time to seconds
        df["s"] = nn #I want to add my new vector to a new "s" column in my df
    print(df.head())    #only gives me the last number in the "nn" column.


Any help is appreciated.
Thank you.


From exarkun at twistedmatrix.com  Mon Apr 17 13:24:44 2017
From: exarkun at twistedmatrix.com (Jean-Paul Calderone)
Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2017 13:24:44 -0400
Subject: [ANN] kubetop 17.4.17.1
Message-ID: <CAEeXt4M4gBzyv_nXJp8G-ADETAjHg6qa-i6QyL35DZT4fT9wzA@mail.gmail.com>

Hello all,

I'm pleased to announce the initial release of kubetop, a command-line tool
in the style of top(1) for displaying current usage and activity of a
Kubernetes cluster.

kubetop 17.4.17.1 will format information about your Kubernetes cluster
like this:

kubetop - 13:02:57
Node 0 CPU%   9.80 MEM% 57.97 (   2 GiB/   4 GiB)  POD%  7.27 (  8/110) Ready
Node 1 CPU%  21.20 MEM% 59.36 (   2 GiB/   4 GiB)  POD%  3.64 (  4/110) Ready
Node 2 CPU%  99.90 MEM% 58.11 (   2 GiB/   4 GiB)  POD%  7.27 (  8/110) Ready
Pods:       20 total        0 running        0 terminating        0 pending
                 POD               (CONTAINER)        %CPU         MEM   %MEM
s4-infrastructure-3073578190-2k2vw                    75.5  782.05 MiB  20.76
                      (subscription-converger)        72.7  459.11 MiB
                                 (grid-router)         2.7   98.07 MiB
                                         (web)         0.1   67.61 MiB
                        (subscription-manager)         0.0   91.62 MiB
                       (foolscap-log-gatherer)         0.0   21.98 MiB
                                       (flapp)         0.0   21.46 MiB
                              (wormhole-relay)         0.0   22.19 MiB


kubetop is meant as a handy tool to use at the spur of the moment.  It is
not intended to replace a real monitoring system.

kubetop's presentation is preliminary and a work in progress.
Contributions welcome.

You can find kubetop on PyPI <https://pypi.python.org/pypi/kubetop> and
GitHub <https://github.com/LeastAuthority/kubetop>.  Install it in the
usual way:

pip install kubetop


Thanks to Least Authority Enterprises <https://leastauthority.com/> for
sponsoring this development.

Jean-Paul Calderone
http://as.ynchrono.us/


From __peter__ at web.de  Mon Apr 17 13:56:52 2017
From: __peter__ at web.de (Peter Otten)
Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2017 19:56:52 +0200
Subject: creating vector from df.intertuples
References: <973b06e1-194e-4128-8202-1d22f214b325@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <od2vkv$dp9$1@blaine.gmane.org>

Richard Medina wrote:

> I want to create a vector from a dataframe in a loop. Then I want to
> create a new column from this vector.
> 
>     for row in df.itertuples():
>         mm  = str(row.t)  #selecting "t" column
>         nn = get_sec(mm) #this function converts time to seconds
>         df["s"] = nn #I want to add my new vector to a new "s" column in
>         my df
>     print(df.head())    #only gives me the last number in the "nn" column.

I think you need to build the whole column before adding it to the 
DataFrame.

# untested
df["s"] = [get_sec(str(t)) for t in row.t]



From rgaddi at highlandtechnology.invalid  Mon Apr 17 13:58:31 2017
From: rgaddi at highlandtechnology.invalid (Rob Gaddi)
Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2017 10:58:31 -0700
Subject: Buffers and pointers (Py3.4)
Message-ID: <od2vid$mp1$1@dont-email.me>

So long as we're all feeling so concerned about speed lately...

I've got a piece of hardware that allows me to call a C library that 
calls an ioctl() that kicks off a DMA transfer and moves data between 
process memory and external hardware.  I would like a way to turn an 
arbitrary object implementing the buffer protocol into a pointer so that 
I can pass that pointer to the library to be passed to the hardware to 
stream my data.

The obvious question on your minds is why on earth am I doing this. 
Example case: my hardware is being used as a bridge to talk to a 16 
channel transient digitizer, acquiring data at 500 ksps per channel.  I 
would like my Python application to be able to acquire, say, 10M samples 
per channel.  I can have a list of 16 10M NumPy arrays, and every 5 ms I 
can request a single DMA transfer to grab all the new data that's been 
acquired and push it, zero-copy, into my arrays before the hardware 
FIFOs get full and I start losing data.

If I knew the buffers would always be NumPy arrays I could use 
ndarray.ctypes.data to get the pointer.  Always ctypes buffers, I could 
just use ctypes.addressof.  In either case I can flip them into 
memoryviews, but nothing seems to give me a pointer from that. 
Bytearrays, array.arrarys..., I've got nothin'.

If I were writing this as a C extension, getting that information from 
any buffer object would be trivial, but that changes my project from a 
pure Python wrapper using ctypes to a mixed language project with 
compile dependencies and mental headaches.

   buffertype = c_uint8 * size
   return addressof(buffertype.from_buffer(buf, offset))

works but is inefficient and woefully inelegant.  I saw some discussion 
on the ctypes bug tracker https://bugs.python.org/issue27274 about this 
nearly a year ago, but no actual action.

I really want to take all of this low-level horribleness, wrap it up 
into a higher-level API, and never be subject to the gory details again. 
  This pointer thing is about the last hangup.  Ideas?

-- 
Rob Gaddi, Highland Technology -- www.highlandtechnology.com
Email address domain is currently out of order.  See above to fix.


From ben.usenet at bsb.me.uk  Mon Apr 17 14:02:16 2017
From: ben.usenet at bsb.me.uk (Ben Bacarisse)
Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2017 19:02:16 +0100
Subject: Looping [was Re: Python and the need for speed]
References: <768f9a44-5d90-4756-8a99-821253a491f8@googlegroups.com>
 <58eceea2$0$1615$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <CAE6NSRD=xU_mNECNBU2w92Br=vgHJJVqSruGFrPB=vrbpkj0Nw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPjBxg_49OD_CNXUAHKjxYsUiLab4s_fCs_Ast3LyymB82zTCA@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.68.1491956914.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <4277c149-e136-4d33-91d5-d011df9149f1@googlegroups.com>
 <58edcdd2$0$1501$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <fdb4a93a-688e-4a3f-bbc3-0df3ee1d2ac7@googlegroups.com>
 <54f1685d-1d2d-44b5-869e-a510569ba9d1@googlegroups.com>
 <lf5a87ln8k9.fsf@ling.helsinki.fi>
 <1d352948-9029-4b86-b2f1-2b52608109ea@googlegroups.com>
 <616ebaec-f140-491c-897e-f2c4b8368d28@googlegroups.com>
 <IboIA.298355$0L.88195@fx12.am4>
 <58f2dc43$0$1583$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <_6JIA.1041096$Pm3.778529@fx42.am4> <elid5kFqh32U1@mid.individual.net>
 <87shl7mrtf.fsf@elektro.pacujo.net> <od2eib$eno$2@blaine.gmane.org>
 <mailman.237.1492434618.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <87k26jvvpn.fsf@elektro.pacujo.net>
Message-ID: <87efwqoqtz.fsf@bsb.me.uk>

Marko Rauhamaa <marko at pacujo.net> writes:

> Terry Reedy <tjreedy at udel.edu>:
>
>> On 4/17/2017 3:11 AM, Marko Rauhamaa wrote:
>>> Here's statistics from a medium-sized project of mine:
>>>
>>>    while True:            34
>>>    while <condition>:     39
>>>    for ... in ...:       158
>>
>> As I posted previously, the ratio of for-loops in the stdlib is about 7
>> to 1.
>
> What I notice in my numbers is that about one half of my while loops are
> "while True", and about a third of my loops are while loops.

I fond the proportion on while True: loops surprising.  Is there
something about Python that encourages that kind of loop?

-- 
Ben.


From laytonjb at gmail.com  Mon Apr 17 14:03:21 2017
From: laytonjb at gmail.com (Jeffrey Layton)
Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2017 11:03:21 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: GPUs with various tools
Message-ID: <96f4016d-12e7-4cc5-a099-4b1ed8d03e96@googlegroups.com>

Good afternoon,

Since I just got a nice GTX 1050 card, I would like to exercise it with Python. In particular, I'm curious about tools such as SciPy, Pandas, Numpy, etc., that can take advantage of GPUs so I don't have to write any GPU code. 

For example, can I solve an A X = B linear problem on GPUs if it's faster than running it on the CPUs.

I'm working with Continuum's Accelerate and I'm slowly learning PyCUDA but I'm looking for something that's already coded.

Any suggestions?

Thanks!

Jeff


From bc at freeuk.com  Mon Apr 17 14:35:41 2017
From: bc at freeuk.com (bartc)
Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2017 19:35:41 +0100
Subject: Looping [was Re: Python and the need for speed]
In-Reply-To: <87efwqoqtz.fsf@bsb.me.uk>
References: <768f9a44-5d90-4756-8a99-821253a491f8@googlegroups.com>
 <CAE6NSRD=xU_mNECNBU2w92Br=vgHJJVqSruGFrPB=vrbpkj0Nw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPjBxg_49OD_CNXUAHKjxYsUiLab4s_fCs_Ast3LyymB82zTCA@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.68.1491956914.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <4277c149-e136-4d33-91d5-d011df9149f1@googlegroups.com>
 <58edcdd2$0$1501$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <fdb4a93a-688e-4a3f-bbc3-0df3ee1d2ac7@googlegroups.com>
 <54f1685d-1d2d-44b5-869e-a510569ba9d1@googlegroups.com>
 <lf5a87ln8k9.fsf@ling.helsinki.fi>
 <1d352948-9029-4b86-b2f1-2b52608109ea@googlegroups.com>
 <616ebaec-f140-491c-897e-f2c4b8368d28@googlegroups.com>
 <IboIA.298355$0L.88195@fx12.am4>
 <58f2dc43$0$1583$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <_6JIA.1041096$Pm3.778529@fx42.am4> <elid5kFqh32U1@mid.individual.net>
 <87shl7mrtf.fsf@elektro.pacujo.net> <od2eib$eno$2@blaine.gmane.org>
 <mailman.237.1492434618.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <87k26jvvpn.fsf@elektro.pacujo.net> <87efwqoqtz.fsf@bsb.me.uk>
Message-ID: <%V7JA.411735$Iy2.258756@fx28.am4>

On 17/04/2017 19:02, Ben Bacarisse wrote:
> Marko Rauhamaa <marko at pacujo.net> writes:
>
>> Terry Reedy <tjreedy at udel.edu>:
>>
>>> On 4/17/2017 3:11 AM, Marko Rauhamaa wrote:
>>>> Here's statistics from a medium-sized project of mine:
>>>>
>>>>    while True:            34
>>>>    while <condition>:     39
>>>>    for ... in ...:       158
>>>
>>> As I posted previously, the ratio of for-loops in the stdlib is about 7
>>> to 1.
>>
>> What I notice in my numbers is that about one half of my while loops are
>> "while True", and about a third of my loops are while loops.
>
> I fond the proportion on while True: loops surprising.  Is there
> something about Python that encourages that kind of loop?
>

A few things:

(1) Python doesn't have the equivalent of C's comma operator, and no 
assignment in expressions. So if a condition relies on such set-up code, 
it can't do this:

    while (c=nextc())!=0:

But has to do this or use extra logic:

    while 1:
       c=nextc()
       if c==0: break

(2) There are exceptions ('raise') as an extra means of breaking out of 
such loops (as well as return, break, and exit()

(3) There's 'yield' too, as I've just seen this example:

     while True:
        yield []

So there are more excuses to make use of it. Plus Python programmers may 
be more averse to using convoluted logic just to avoid a 'break' in the 
middle of a loop.


-- 
bartc



From marko at pacujo.net  Mon Apr 17 14:38:05 2017
From: marko at pacujo.net (Marko Rauhamaa)
Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2017 21:38:05 +0300
Subject: Looping [was Re: Python and the need for speed]
References: <768f9a44-5d90-4756-8a99-821253a491f8@googlegroups.com>
 <CAE6NSRD=xU_mNECNBU2w92Br=vgHJJVqSruGFrPB=vrbpkj0Nw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPjBxg_49OD_CNXUAHKjxYsUiLab4s_fCs_Ast3LyymB82zTCA@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.68.1491956914.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <4277c149-e136-4d33-91d5-d011df9149f1@googlegroups.com>
 <58edcdd2$0$1501$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <fdb4a93a-688e-4a3f-bbc3-0df3ee1d2ac7@googlegroups.com>
 <54f1685d-1d2d-44b5-869e-a510569ba9d1@googlegroups.com>
 <lf5a87ln8k9.fsf@ling.helsinki.fi>
 <1d352948-9029-4b86-b2f1-2b52608109ea@googlegroups.com>
 <616ebaec-f140-491c-897e-f2c4b8368d28@googlegroups.com>
 <IboIA.298355$0L.88195@fx12.am4>
 <58f2dc43$0$1583$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <_6JIA.1041096$Pm3.778529@fx42.am4> <elid5kFqh32U1@mid.individual.net>
 <87shl7mrtf.fsf@elektro.pacujo.net> <od2eib$eno$2@blaine.gmane.org>
 <mailman.237.1492434618.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <87k26jvvpn.fsf@elektro.pacujo.net> <87efwqoqtz.fsf@bsb.me.uk>
Message-ID: <87d1caubg2.fsf@elektro.pacujo.net>

Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet at bsb.me.uk>:

> Marko Rauhamaa <marko at pacujo.net> writes:
>> What I notice in my numbers is that about one half of my while loops
>> are "while True", and about a third of my loops are while loops.
>
> I fo[u]nd the proportion on while True: loops surprising. Is there
> something about Python that encourages that kind of loop?

Here's a typical example of such a loop in Python (ver 2):

    while True:
        try:
            snippet = os.read(rdfd, 1000)
        except OSError as e:
            if e.errno == errno.EAGAIN:
                return
            raise
        if not snippet:
            break
        self.stdout_snippets.append(snippet)

I find myself writing similar loops in C a lot, as well.


Marko


From rosuav at gmail.com  Mon Apr 17 14:47:22 2017
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2017 04:47:22 +1000
Subject: Buffers and pointers (Py3.4)
In-Reply-To: <od2vid$mp1$1@dont-email.me>
References: <od2vid$mp1$1@dont-email.me>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmpdgCdVGAToYTcAjxppr7hArCEvh_0vVPJvv_=5aAiUqw@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Apr 18, 2017 at 3:58 AM, Rob Gaddi
<rgaddi at highlandtechnology.invalid> wrote:
> If I were writing this as a C extension, getting that information from any
> buffer object would be trivial, but that changes my project from a pure
> Python wrapper using ctypes to a mixed language project with compile
> dependencies and mental headaches.
>
>   buffertype = c_uint8 * size
>   return addressof(buffertype.from_buffer(buf, offset))
>
> works but is inefficient and woefully inelegant.

Have you considered Cython? It can massively simplify a lot of the
work in doing this kind of thing.

ChrisA


From mikhailwas at gmail.com  Mon Apr 17 15:04:00 2017
From: mikhailwas at gmail.com (Mikhail V)
Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2017 21:04:00 +0200
Subject: Looping [was Re: Python and the need for speed]
In-Reply-To: <58f421a7$0$1618$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
References: <54f1685d-1d2d-44b5-869e-a510569ba9d1@googlegroups.com>
 <lf5a87ln8k9.fsf@ling.helsinki.fi>
 <1d352948-9029-4b86-b2f1-2b52608109ea@googlegroups.com>
 <616ebaec-f140-491c-897e-f2c4b8368d28@googlegroups.com>
 <IboIA.298355$0L.88195@fx12.am4>
 <58f2dc43$0$1583$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <_6JIA.1041096$Pm3.778529@fx42.am4>
 <fe03f274-dab8-4510-8039-03e1c5f82527@googlegroups.com>
 <nLKIA.897491$w46.587707@fx39.am4>
 <58f3a04b$0$1591$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <p6i7fc5l1fukm168c7cq0g0loiut01v3vm@4ax.com>
 <mailman.224.1492372201.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <58f421a7$0$1618$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
Message-ID: <CAE6NSRA-mVd5qRSevSkiEpE5ysrPktWp2DXrkjk34-eQy8aUUg@mail.gmail.com>

On 17 April 2017 at 04:00, Steve D'Aprano <steve+python at pearwood.info> wrote:
> On Mon, 17 Apr 2017 05:49 am, Dennis Lee Bieber wrote:
>
>> On Mon, 17 Apr 2017 02:48:08 +1000, Steve D'Aprano
>> <steve+python at pearwood.info> declaimed the following:
>>
>>>On Sun, 16 Apr 2017 11:57 pm, bartc wrote:
>>>
>>>> But people just don't want it.
>>>
>>>Damn straight. Now you get it. It's not about how easy it is to implement,
>>>it's about whether it is needed and wanted. It isn't needed, and it isn't
>>>wanted.
>>>
>>
>> Let's go all the way, and just get rid of "while <cond>".
>
> Sure, why not? If it's your language, you can make it as minimalist or
> maximalist as you like. You get to choose.
>

I think it is right not to touch anything for .py file rules.
Seriously there are much more problems, and better code editors
should adress those, not current syntax.


As for loops, well, if we speak of some 'my' language,
it could be interesting whether there are common patterns.
But is it on-topic here to speak of, say PyBasic2020 fantasy
language?

For real-time application development the amount of
"while(condition)" vs "while True" can play bad jokes
with readability.
I would find such looping schema simpler:

loop:
    if contitioin 1 : contitioin_break = 1
    blabla bla = bla  + foo
    make something
    make something
    if contitioin 2 : contitioin_break = 1
    if contitioin 3 : contitioin_break = 0
    if contitioin_break :  *break
/loop


Anyway it is just question where to show this last line,
or to make an emphasis on it.
so I'd just leave it there, for me it helps when I imagine
a cascade of functions and my eyes go down to the
bottom.  If I have kilometers of "if"s inside the loop,
then hiding one line can become more a problem than an aid.

Constructs like "repeat 100 times {}" or other sort of
"let's pronounce it in English" found in
some languages looks sort of confusing, it takes
me time to "unwrap" their sense into a cascade
especially when there are many different keywords.


Mikhail


From grant.b.edwards at gmail.com  Mon Apr 17 15:15:08 2017
From: grant.b.edwards at gmail.com (Grant Edwards)
Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2017 19:15:08 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: Looping [was Re: Python and the need for speed]
References: <768f9a44-5d90-4756-8a99-821253a491f8@googlegroups.com>
 <CAE6NSRD=xU_mNECNBU2w92Br=vgHJJVqSruGFrPB=vrbpkj0Nw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPjBxg_49OD_CNXUAHKjxYsUiLab4s_fCs_Ast3LyymB82zTCA@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.68.1491956914.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <4277c149-e136-4d33-91d5-d011df9149f1@googlegroups.com>
 <58edcdd2$0$1501$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <fdb4a93a-688e-4a3f-bbc3-0df3ee1d2ac7@googlegroups.com>
 <54f1685d-1d2d-44b5-869e-a510569ba9d1@googlegroups.com>
 <lf5a87ln8k9.fsf@ling.helsinki.fi>
 <1d352948-9029-4b86-b2f1-2b52608109ea@googlegroups.com>
 <616ebaec-f140-491c-897e-f2c4b8368d28@googlegroups.com>
 <IboIA.298355$0L.88195@fx12.am4>
 <58f2dc43$0$1583$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <_6JIA.1041096$Pm3.778529@fx42.am4> <elid5kFqh32U1@mid.individual.net>
 <87shl7mrtf.fsf@elektro.pacujo.net> <od2eib$eno$2@blaine.gmane.org>
 <mailman.237.1492434618.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <87k26jvvpn.fsf@elektro.pacujo.net> <87efwqoqtz.fsf@bsb.me.uk>
Message-ID: <od347r$m2u$1@blaine.gmane.org>

On 2017-04-17, Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet at bsb.me.uk> wrote:
> Marko Rauhamaa <marko at pacujo.net> writes:
>
>> Terry Reedy <tjreedy at udel.edu>:
>>
>>> On 4/17/2017 3:11 AM, Marko Rauhamaa wrote:
>>>> Here's statistics from a medium-sized project of mine:
>>>>
>>>>    while True:            34
>>>>    while <condition>:     39
>>>>    for ... in ...:       158
>>>
>>> As I posted previously, the ratio of for-loops in the stdlib is about 7
>>> to 1.
>>
>> What I notice in my numbers is that about one half of my while loops are
>> "while True", and about a third of my loops are while loops.
>
> I fond the proportion on while True: loops surprising.  Is there
> something about Python that encourages that kind of loop?

That's how you read data from a socket/pipe/file.

-- 
Grant Edwards               grant.b.edwards        Yow! Your CHEEKS sit like
                                  at               twin NECTARINES above
                              gmail.com            a MOUTH that knows no
                                                   BOUNDS --



From no.email at nospam.invalid  Mon Apr 17 16:47:58 2017
From: no.email at nospam.invalid (Paul Rubin)
Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2017 13:47:58 -0700
Subject: Bigotry and hate speech on the python mailing list
References: <314147001.1421155.1492382990025.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
 <314147001.1421155.1492382990025@mail.yahoo.com>
 <mailman.234.1492420307.2951.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <87pogahibl.fsf@nightsong.com>

Rurpy <rurpy at yahoo.com> writes:
> A couple weeks ago a frequent poster here (Steve D'Aprano
> <steve+python at pearwood.info>) called another participant an "ugly
> american"

Oh stop trolling.  Ugly American was a 1950s thing, now just amusing.
And context matters.  Steven, please try to be a little more attentive
to people's delicate feefees in the future.  Rurpy, should that take
care of it?


From no.email at nospam.invalid  Mon Apr 17 16:55:32 2017
From: no.email at nospam.invalid (Paul Rubin)
Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2017 13:55:32 -0700
Subject: Static typing [was Re: Python and the need for speed]
References: <768f9a44-5d90-4756-8a99-821253a491f8@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.5.1491710256.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <58e9e519$0$1528$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <mailman.9.1491728745.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <58ec9192$0$1602$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <oci97l$10u4$1@gioia.aioe.org>
 <58eceea2$0$1615$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <CAE6NSRD=xU_mNECNBU2w92Br=vgHJJVqSruGFrPB=vrbpkj0Nw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPjBxg_49OD_CNXUAHKjxYsUiLab4s_fCs_Ast3LyymB82zTCA@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.68.1491956914.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <4277c149-e136-4d33-91d5-d011df9149f1@googlegroups.com>
 <58edcdd2$0$1501$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <fdb4a93a-688e-4a3f-bbc3-0df3ee1d2ac7@googlegroups.com>
 <b003e7c4-4bc4-4478-b793-5f43a4360b55@googlegroups.com>
 <58f2f2b1$0$1599$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <877f2jpnf7.fsf@nightsong.com>
 <58f49e92$0$1590$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
Message-ID: <87lgqyhhyz.fsf@nightsong.com>

Steve D'Aprano <steve+python at pearwood.info> writes:
> On the other hand, there's Cython. Cython claims *not* to be a JIT compiler,

One of the uses of "JIT compiler" these days is what's sometimes called
a tracing JIT, like PyPy or LuaJIT or the Javascript flavor-of-the-week.
That means it interprets the program while collecting execution traces
to figure out the actual types the program uses at runtime, then
generates machine code for those specific code paths, with some guards
in case an unexpectedly typed value shows up.


From no.email at nospam.invalid  Mon Apr 17 16:56:30 2017
From: no.email at nospam.invalid (Paul Rubin)
Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2017 13:56:30 -0700
Subject: GPUs with various tools
References: <96f4016d-12e7-4cc5-a099-4b1ed8d03e96@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <87h91mhhxd.fsf@nightsong.com>

Jeffrey Layton <laytonjb at gmail.com> writes:
> I'm working with Continuum's Accelerate and I'm slowly learning PyCUDA
> but I'm looking for something that's already coded.

TensorFlow has good Python bindings.  That's probably the best way to
get started.


From ashish.a.may at gmail.com  Mon Apr 17 17:06:28 2017
From: ashish.a.may at gmail.com (ASHISH A)
Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2017 23:06:28 +0200
Subject: Unable to use Python IDLE after downloading the application
Message-ID: <CA+jtgOVz3OVP97MS8BBj1BOT5R6VynmvWvQujW4Uq4LD930u8g@mail.gmail.com>

Hi Team,

I have a 64 bit system with Windows 801 Pro OS. I tried to install Python
3.6.1 from the below link :
https://www.python.org/downloads/

It automatically downloaded that 32 bit Python application and tried to
launch IDLE (32 bit). I could not launch IDLE and it gave me an error
saying DLL file missing (attached snapshot). I have downloaded the DLL file
and also installed Microsoft C++ redistributable 2015.(After following
steps on you-tube to fix such DLL issues).

I am still unable to launch IDLE . Could you please let me know if the
issue is because of the 32 bit version of Python on my 64 bit laptop ?
Because the DLL file can not be an issue as i have already fixed it.


Regards
Ashish


From ashish.a.may at gmail.com  Mon Apr 17 17:07:10 2017
From: ashish.a.may at gmail.com (ASHISH A)
Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2017 23:07:10 +0200
Subject: Unable to use Python IDLE after downloading the application
In-Reply-To: <CA+jtgOVz3OVP97MS8BBj1BOT5R6VynmvWvQujW4Uq4LD930u8g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CA+jtgOVz3OVP97MS8BBj1BOT5R6VynmvWvQujW4Uq4LD930u8g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CA+jtgOWBe1KDC67cpUPdUNGOyY9-nuATsAckyq17Au5+Hcy7rQ@mail.gmail.com>

PFA the snapshot of the error message..


Regards
Ashish

On Mon, Apr 17, 2017 at 11:06 PM, ASHISH A <ashish.a.may at gmail.com> wrote:

> Hi Team,
>
> I have a 64 bit system with Windows 801 Pro OS. I tried to install Python
> 3.6.1 from the below link :
> https://www.python.org/downloads/
>
> It automatically downloaded that 32 bit Python application and tried to
> launch IDLE (32 bit). I could not launch IDLE and it gave me an error
> saying DLL file missing (attached snapshot). I have downloaded the DLL file
> and also installed Microsoft C++ redistributable 2015.(After following
> steps on you-tube to fix such DLL issues).
>
> I am still unable to launch IDLE . Could you please let me know if the
> issue is because of the 32 bit version of Python on my 64 bit laptop ?
> Because the DLL file can not be an issue as i have already fixed it.
>
>
> Regards
> Ashish
>


From ashish.a.may at gmail.com  Mon Apr 17 17:27:34 2017
From: ashish.a.may at gmail.com (ASHISH A)
Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2017 23:27:34 +0200
Subject: Unable to use Python IDLE after downloading the application
In-Reply-To: <CA+jtgOVz3OVP97MS8BBj1BOT5R6VynmvWvQujW4Uq4LD930u8g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CA+jtgOVz3OVP97MS8BBj1BOT5R6VynmvWvQujW4Uq4LD930u8g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CA+jtgOUuvBOno8MkX_KoVG=Ns2g4QXqrhuBzZ9ctUUVO_hpDMQ@mail.gmail.com>

Hi Team,

I also tried installing the 64 bit Python and now i get the attached
snapshot as error message,


Regards
Ashish


On Mon, Apr 17, 2017 at 11:06 PM, ASHISH A <ashish.a.may at gmail.com> wrote:

> Hi Team,
>
> I have a 64 bit system with Windows 801 Pro OS. I tried to install Python
> 3.6.1 from the below link :
> https://www.python.org/downloads/
>
> It automatically downloaded that 32 bit Python application and tried to
> launch IDLE (32 bit). I could not launch IDLE and it gave me an error
> saying DLL file missing (attached snapshot). I have downloaded the DLL file
> and also installed Microsoft C++ redistributable 2015.(After following
> steps on you-tube to fix such DLL issues).
>
> I am still unable to launch IDLE . Could you please let me know if the
> issue is because of the 32 bit version of Python on my 64 bit laptop ?
> Because the DLL file can not be an issue as i have already fixed it.
>
>
> Regards
> Ashish
>


From eryksun at gmail.com  Mon Apr 17 17:49:15 2017
From: eryksun at gmail.com (eryk sun)
Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2017 21:49:15 +0000
Subject: Buffers and pointers (Py3.4)
In-Reply-To: <od2vid$mp1$1@dont-email.me>
References: <od2vid$mp1$1@dont-email.me>
Message-ID: <CACL+1avknGUHdhJP08KbPGfEZ4ekaLD+z8m+-xnTg-UTZNFuuQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Apr 17, 2017 at 5:58 PM, Rob Gaddi
<rgaddi at highlandtechnology.invalid> wrote:
> buffertype = c_uint8 * size
> return addressof(buffertype.from_buffer(buf, offset))
>
> works but is inefficient and woefully inelegant.

A lot of the cost there is in creating buffertype, but why do you need
that? You can use c_char.from_buffer if all you need is the base
address.

    import ctypes

    def addressof_buffer(buf):
        return ctypes.addressof(ctypes.c_char.from_buffer(buf))

    >>> b = bytearray(b'spam')
    >>> addressof_buffer(b)
    2619159025048
    >>> ctypes.string_at(2619159025048, 5)
    b'spam\x00'


From eryksun at gmail.com  Mon Apr 17 18:06:36 2017
From: eryksun at gmail.com (eryk sun)
Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2017 22:06:36 +0000
Subject: Unable to use Python IDLE after downloading the application
In-Reply-To: <CA+jtgOVz3OVP97MS8BBj1BOT5R6VynmvWvQujW4Uq4LD930u8g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CA+jtgOVz3OVP97MS8BBj1BOT5R6VynmvWvQujW4Uq4LD930u8g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CACL+1atZgDvLZAA6xWwS0Lesg35wa0S1ScGJzMLgxRY-DmK1uQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Apr 17, 2017 at 9:06 PM, ASHISH A <ashish.a.may at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I could not launch IDLE and it gave me an error saying DLL file missing
> (attached snapshot).

python-list doesn't send attachments. Please do your best to
paraphrase error messages that can't be pasted as plain text.

> I have downloaded the DLL file

I hope you didn't download a system DLL from some arbitrary website,
which could contain malware. Only get Windows updates from Microsoft.

> and also installed Microsoft C++ redistributable 2015.(After following steps
> on you-tube to fix such DLL issues).

You didn't need the full C++ redistributable. If it's an error due to
the Universal C runtime, then you should install KB3118401 for your
version of Windows, which I presume is x64 Windows 8.1.

https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/kb/3118401


From ben+python at benfinney.id.au  Mon Apr 17 18:23:34 2017
From: ben+python at benfinney.id.au (Ben Finney)
Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2017 08:23:34 +1000
Subject: Bigotry and hate speech on the python mailing list
References: <314147001.1421155.1492382990025.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
 <314147001.1421155.1492382990025@mail.yahoo.com>
 <mailman.234.1492420307.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <87pogahibl.fsf@nightsong.com>
Message-ID: <85h91mbrmh.fsf@benfinney.id.au>

Paul Rubin <no.email at nospam.invalid> writes:

> Rurpy <rurpy at yahoo.com> writes:
> > A couple weeks ago a frequent poster here (Steve D'Aprano
> > <steve+python at pearwood.info>) called another participant an "ugly
> > american"
>
> Oh stop trolling.

Paul, that is uncalled for. The charge of bigotry is not to be lightly
dismissed, and we do want to foster an environment here where people
will feel welcome.

> Steven, please try to be a little more attentive to people's delicate
> feefees in the future. Rurpy, should that take care of it?

No, that doesn't do it. Taking care of people's feelings is an essential
part of keeping a community healthy and welcoming, and your belittling
does not help with that.

-- 
 \            ?Choose mnemonic identifiers. If you can't remember what |
  `\                mnemonic means, you've got a problem.? ?Larry Wall |
_o__)                                                                  |
Ben Finney



From greg.ewing at canterbury.ac.nz  Mon Apr 17 19:01:50 2017
From: greg.ewing at canterbury.ac.nz (Gregory Ewing)
Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2017 11:01:50 +1200
Subject: Looping [was Re: Python and the need for speed]
In-Reply-To: <87k26jvvpn.fsf@elektro.pacujo.net>
References: <768f9a44-5d90-4756-8a99-821253a491f8@googlegroups.com>	<58eceea2$0$1615$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>	<CAE6NSRD=xU_mNECNBU2w92Br=vgHJJVqSruGFrPB=vrbpkj0Nw@mail.gmail.com>	<CAPjBxg_49OD_CNXUAHKjxYsUiLab4s_fCs_Ast3LyymB82zTCA@mail.gmail.com>	<mailman.68.1491956914.2951.python-list@python.org>	<4277c149-e136-4d33-91d5-d011df9149f1@googlegroups.com>	<58edcdd2$0$1501$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>	<fdb4a93a-688e-4a3f-bbc3-0df3ee1d2ac7@googlegroups.com>	<54f1685d-1d2d-44b5-869e-a510569ba9d1@googlegroups.com>	<lf5a87ln8k9.fsf@ling.helsinki.fi>	<1d352948-9029-4b86-b2f1-2b52608109ea@googlegroups.com>	<616ebaec-f140-491c-897e-f2c4b8368d28@googlegroups.com>	<IboIA.298355$0L.88195@fx12.am4>	<58f2dc43$0$1583$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>	<_6JIA.1041096$Pm3.778529@fx42.am4>
 <elid5kFqh32U1@mid.individual.net>	<87shl7mrtf.fsf@elektro.pacujo.net>
 <od2eib$eno$2@blaine.gmane.org>	<mailman.237.1492434618.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <87k26jvvpn.fsf@elektro.pacujo.net>
Message-ID: <elkvr0Fbe37U1@mid.individual.net>

Marko Rauhamaa wrote:
> What I notice in my numbers is that about one half of my while loops are
> "while True", and about a third of my loops are while loops.

Out of curiosity, what proportion of your 'while True' loops
are infinite? (I.e. no break, return or raise in the loop.)

-- 
Greg


From ben.usenet at bsb.me.uk  Mon Apr 17 20:18:21 2017
From: ben.usenet at bsb.me.uk (Ben Bacarisse)
Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2017 01:18:21 +0100
Subject: Looping [was Re: Python and the need for speed]
References: <768f9a44-5d90-4756-8a99-821253a491f8@googlegroups.com>
 <CAPjBxg_49OD_CNXUAHKjxYsUiLab4s_fCs_Ast3LyymB82zTCA@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.68.1491956914.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <4277c149-e136-4d33-91d5-d011df9149f1@googlegroups.com>
 <58edcdd2$0$1501$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <fdb4a93a-688e-4a3f-bbc3-0df3ee1d2ac7@googlegroups.com>
 <54f1685d-1d2d-44b5-869e-a510569ba9d1@googlegroups.com>
 <lf5a87ln8k9.fsf@ling.helsinki.fi>
 <1d352948-9029-4b86-b2f1-2b52608109ea@googlegroups.com>
 <616ebaec-f140-491c-897e-f2c4b8368d28@googlegroups.com>
 <IboIA.298355$0L.88195@fx12.am4>
 <58f2dc43$0$1583$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <_6JIA.1041096$Pm3.778529@fx42.am4> <elid5kFqh32U1@mid.individual.net>
 <87shl7mrtf.fsf@elektro.pacujo.net> <od2eib$eno$2@blaine.gmane.org>
 <mailman.237.1492434618.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <87k26jvvpn.fsf@elektro.pacujo.net> <87efwqoqtz.fsf@bsb.me.uk>
 <87d1caubg2.fsf@elektro.pacujo.net>
Message-ID: <87y3uymuuq.fsf@bsb.me.uk>

Marko Rauhamaa <marko at pacujo.net> writes:

> Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet at bsb.me.uk>:
>
>> Marko Rauhamaa <marko at pacujo.net> writes:
>>> What I notice in my numbers is that about one half of my while loops
>>> are "while True", and about a third of my loops are while loops.
>>
>> I fo[u]nd the proportion on while True: loops surprising. Is there
>> something about Python that encourages that kind of loop?

(Thanks for th type correction.  There is also s/of/on/.)

> Here's a typical example of such a loop in Python (ver 2):
>
>     while True:
>         try:
>             snippet = os.read(rdfd, 1000)
>         except OSError as e:
>             if e.errno == errno.EAGAIN:
>                 return
>             raise
>         if not snippet:
>             break
>         self.stdout_snippets.append(snippet)

Thanks (and to Grant).  IO seems to be the canonical example.  Where
some languages would force one to write

  c = sys.stdin.read(1)
  while c == ' ':
      c = sys.stdin.read(1)

and an Algol-68 style language would permit one to write

  while (c := read char; c) do skip od

Python opts for

  while True:
     c = sys.stdin.read(1)
     if c != ' ': break

(Forgive the atypical choice of input primitive -- it's for illustrating
the loop style only.)

<snip>
-- 
Ben.


From no.email at nospam.invalid  Mon Apr 17 20:23:14 2017
From: no.email at nospam.invalid (Paul Rubin)
Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2017 17:23:14 -0700
Subject: Looping [was Re: Python and the need for speed]
References: <768f9a44-5d90-4756-8a99-821253a491f8@googlegroups.com>
 <CAPjBxg_49OD_CNXUAHKjxYsUiLab4s_fCs_Ast3LyymB82zTCA@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.68.1491956914.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <4277c149-e136-4d33-91d5-d011df9149f1@googlegroups.com>
 <58edcdd2$0$1501$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <fdb4a93a-688e-4a3f-bbc3-0df3ee1d2ac7@googlegroups.com>
 <54f1685d-1d2d-44b5-869e-a510569ba9d1@googlegroups.com>
 <lf5a87ln8k9.fsf@ling.helsinki.fi>
 <1d352948-9029-4b86-b2f1-2b52608109ea@googlegroups.com>
 <616ebaec-f140-491c-897e-f2c4b8368d28@googlegroups.com>
 <IboIA.298355$0L.88195@fx12.am4>
 <58f2dc43$0$1583$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <_6JIA.1041096$Pm3.778529@fx42.am4> <elid5kFqh32U1@mid.individual.net>
 <87shl7mrtf.fsf@elektro.pacujo.net> <od2eib$eno$2@blaine.gmane.org>
 <mailman.237.1492434618.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <87k26jvvpn.fsf@elektro.pacujo.net> <87efwqoqtz.fsf@bsb.me.uk>
 <87d1caubg2.fsf@elektro.pacujo.net> <87y3uymuuq.fsf@bsb.me.uk>
Message-ID: <878tmyh8ct.fsf@nightsong.com>

Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet at bsb.me.uk> writes:
>   c = sys.stdin.read(1)
>   while c == ' ':
>       c = sys.stdin.read(1)

c = itertools.dropwhile(
     lambda c: c==' ',
     iter(lambda: sys.stdin.read(1),None)
     ).next()


From ethan at stoneleaf.us  Mon Apr 17 20:48:07 2017
From: ethan at stoneleaf.us (Ethan Furman)
Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2017 17:48:07 -0700
Subject: Bigotry and hate speech on the python mailing list
In-Reply-To: <85h91mbrmh.fsf@benfinney.id.au>
References: <314147001.1421155.1492382990025.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
 <314147001.1421155.1492382990025@mail.yahoo.com>
 <mailman.234.1492420307.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <87pogahibl.fsf@nightsong.com> <85h91mbrmh.fsf@benfinney.id.au>
Message-ID: <58F56247.5030905@stoneleaf.us>

On 04/17/2017 03:23 PM, Ben Finney wrote:
> Paul Rubin writes:
>> Rurpy writes:

>>> A couple weeks ago a frequent poster here (Steve D'Aprano)
>>> called another participant an "ugly american"
>>
>> Oh stop trolling.
>
> Paul, that is uncalled for. The charge of bigotry is not to be lightly
> dismissed, and we do want to foster an environment here where people
> will feel welcome.

You mean all the non-religious people?

Because some of your signatures don't feel welcoming to people of faith:

  \         ?I think Western civilization is more enlightened precisely |
   `\     because we have learned how to ignore our religious leaders.? |
_o__)                                                ?Bill Maher, 2003 |

  \       ?Science shows that belief in God is not only obsolete. It is |
   `\                        also incoherent.? ?Victor J. Stenger, 2001 |
_o__)                                                                  |

  \       ?Give a man a fish, and you'll feed him for a day; give him a |
   `\    religion, and he'll starve to death while praying for a fish.? |
_o__)                                                       ?Anonymous |

  \           ?Prayer must never be answered: if it is, it ceases to be |
   `\   prayer and becomes correspondence.? ?Oscar Wilde, _The Epigrams |
_o__)                                            of Oscar Wilde_, 1952 |

>> Steven, please try to be a little more attentive to people's delicate
>> feefees in the future. Rurpy, should that take care of it?
>
> No, that doesn't do it. Taking care of people's feelings is an essential
> part of keeping a community healthy and welcoming, and your belittling
> does not help with that.

Neither do (a subset of) your signatures, yet you refuse to filter them out:

[from previous email]
> So I will continue to treat all those topics equally: peripheral
> comments on beliefs are just part of respectful human discourse, so long
> as I'm respectful of the people who may hold such beliefs.

So you're okay with respectfully making people of faith feel unwelcome?

--
~Ethan~


From bc at freeuk.com  Mon Apr 17 20:52:30 2017
From: bc at freeuk.com (bartc)
Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2017 01:52:30 +0100
Subject: Looping [was Re: Python and the need for speed]
In-Reply-To: <878tmyh8ct.fsf@nightsong.com>
References: <768f9a44-5d90-4756-8a99-821253a491f8@googlegroups.com>
 <CAPjBxg_49OD_CNXUAHKjxYsUiLab4s_fCs_Ast3LyymB82zTCA@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.68.1491956914.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <4277c149-e136-4d33-91d5-d011df9149f1@googlegroups.com>
 <58edcdd2$0$1501$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <fdb4a93a-688e-4a3f-bbc3-0df3ee1d2ac7@googlegroups.com>
 <54f1685d-1d2d-44b5-869e-a510569ba9d1@googlegroups.com>
 <lf5a87ln8k9.fsf@ling.helsinki.fi>
 <1d352948-9029-4b86-b2f1-2b52608109ea@googlegroups.com>
 <616ebaec-f140-491c-897e-f2c4b8368d28@googlegroups.com>
 <IboIA.298355$0L.88195@fx12.am4>
 <58f2dc43$0$1583$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <_6JIA.1041096$Pm3.778529@fx42.am4> <elid5kFqh32U1@mid.individual.net>
 <87shl7mrtf.fsf@elektro.pacujo.net> <od2eib$eno$2@blaine.gmane.org>
 <mailman.237.1492434618.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <87k26jvvpn.fsf@elektro.pacujo.net> <87efwqoqtz.fsf@bsb.me.uk>
 <87d1caubg2.fsf@elektro.pacujo.net> <87y3uymuuq.fsf@bsb.me.uk>
 <878tmyh8ct.fsf@nightsong.com>
Message-ID: <frdJA.889296$F83.201718@fx38.am4>

On 18/04/2017 01:23, Paul Rubin wrote:
> Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet at bsb.me.uk> writes:
>>   c = sys.stdin.read(1)
>>   while c == ' ':
>>       c = sys.stdin.read(1)
>
> c = itertools.dropwhile(
>      lambda c: c==' ',
>      iter(lambda: sys.stdin.read(1),None)
>      ).next()
>

I tried this but it doesn't like the .next.

I wanted to see if it was any faster or slower than the more obvious loop.

(With the original loop, changing:

c=sys.stdin.read(1)
while c==' ':
     c=sys.stdin.read(1)

to:

r=sys.stdin.read

c=r(1)
while c==' ':
     c=r(1)

made it 75% faster (reading 10M spaces). Those 3 extra lookups per loop 
I guess (this was run inside a function otherwise the dynamics are 
different).

-- 
bartc


From ben.usenet at bsb.me.uk  Mon Apr 17 21:03:36 2017
From: ben.usenet at bsb.me.uk (Ben Bacarisse)
Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2017 02:03:36 +0100
Subject: Looping [was Re: Python and the need for speed]
References: <768f9a44-5d90-4756-8a99-821253a491f8@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.68.1491956914.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <4277c149-e136-4d33-91d5-d011df9149f1@googlegroups.com>
 <58edcdd2$0$1501$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <fdb4a93a-688e-4a3f-bbc3-0df3ee1d2ac7@googlegroups.com>
 <54f1685d-1d2d-44b5-869e-a510569ba9d1@googlegroups.com>
 <lf5a87ln8k9.fsf@ling.helsinki.fi>
 <1d352948-9029-4b86-b2f1-2b52608109ea@googlegroups.com>
 <616ebaec-f140-491c-897e-f2c4b8368d28@googlegroups.com>
 <IboIA.298355$0L.88195@fx12.am4>
 <58f2dc43$0$1583$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <_6JIA.1041096$Pm3.778529@fx42.am4> <elid5kFqh32U1@mid.individual.net>
 <87shl7mrtf.fsf@elektro.pacujo.net> <od2eib$eno$2@blaine.gmane.org>
 <mailman.237.1492434618.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <87k26jvvpn.fsf@elektro.pacujo.net> <87efwqoqtz.fsf@bsb.me.uk>
 <87d1caubg2.fsf@elektro.pacujo.net> <87y3uymuuq.fsf@bsb.me.uk>
 <878tmyh8ct.fsf@nightsong.com>
Message-ID: <87mvbemsrb.fsf@bsb.me.uk>

Paul Rubin <no.email at nospam.invalid> writes:

> Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet at bsb.me.uk> writes:
>>   c = sys.stdin.read(1)
>>   while c == ' ':
>>       c = sys.stdin.read(1)

(for the record: I was not suggesting this was how you'd do it but how
you'd be forced to do it in some languages)

> c = itertools.dropwhile(
>      lambda c: c==' ',
>      iter(lambda: sys.stdin.read(1),None)
>      ).next()

Did you mean

  c = next(itertools.dropwhile(lambda c: c==' ',
                               iter(lambda: sys.stdin.read(1), None)))

?  I get "AttributeError: 'itertools.dropwhile' object has no attribute
'next'" from your example.

Coming from the lazy language Haskell, I find your example natural
(though the syntax is a little busy for my taste) but would it be
considered Pythonic?

-- 
Ben.


From no.email at nospam.invalid  Mon Apr 17 21:09:10 2017
From: no.email at nospam.invalid (Paul Rubin)
Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2017 18:09:10 -0700
Subject: Looping [was Re: Python and the need for speed]
References: <768f9a44-5d90-4756-8a99-821253a491f8@googlegroups.com>
 <4277c149-e136-4d33-91d5-d011df9149f1@googlegroups.com>
 <58edcdd2$0$1501$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <fdb4a93a-688e-4a3f-bbc3-0df3ee1d2ac7@googlegroups.com>
 <54f1685d-1d2d-44b5-869e-a510569ba9d1@googlegroups.com>
 <lf5a87ln8k9.fsf@ling.helsinki.fi>
 <1d352948-9029-4b86-b2f1-2b52608109ea@googlegroups.com>
 <616ebaec-f140-491c-897e-f2c4b8368d28@googlegroups.com>
 <IboIA.298355$0L.88195@fx12.am4>
 <58f2dc43$0$1583$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <_6JIA.1041096$Pm3.778529@fx42.am4> <elid5kFqh32U1@mid.individual.net>
 <87shl7mrtf.fsf@elektro.pacujo.net> <od2eib$eno$2@blaine.gmane.org>
 <mailman.237.1492434618.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <87k26jvvpn.fsf@elektro.pacujo.net> <87efwqoqtz.fsf@bsb.me.uk>
 <87d1caubg2.fsf@elektro.pacujo.net> <87y3uymuuq.fsf@bsb.me.uk>
 <878tmyh8ct.fsf@nightsong.com> <87mvbemsrb.fsf@bsb.me.uk>
Message-ID: <874lxmh689.fsf@nightsong.com>

Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet at bsb.me.uk> writes:
> ?  I get "AttributeError: 'itertools.dropwhile' object has no attribute
> 'next'" from your example.

Hmm, .next() worked ok for me in Python 2.7.5.  Not sure what happened.
Maybe something went wrong with my paste.  Oh well.

> Coming from the lazy language Haskell, I find your example natural...

Yep ;)


From rgaddi at highlandtechnology.invalid  Mon Apr 17 21:29:50 2017
From: rgaddi at highlandtechnology.invalid (Rob Gaddi)
Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2017 18:29:50 -0700
Subject: Buffers and pointers (Py3.4)
In-Reply-To: <mailman.246.1492465804.2951.python-list@python.org>
References: <od2vid$mp1$1@dont-email.me>
 <CACL+1avknGUHdhJP08KbPGfEZ4ekaLD+z8m+-xnTg-UTZNFuuQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.246.1492465804.2951.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <od3q0k$1o5$1@dont-email.me>

On 04/17/2017 02:49 PM, eryk sun wrote:
> On Mon, Apr 17, 2017 at 5:58 PM, Rob Gaddi
> <rgaddi at highlandtechnology.invalid> wrote:
>> buffertype = c_uint8 * size
>> return addressof(buffertype.from_buffer(buf, offset))
>>
>> works but is inefficient and woefully inelegant.
>
> A lot of the cost there is in creating buffertype, but why do you need
> that? You can use c_char.from_buffer if all you need is the base
> address.
>
>     import ctypes
>
>     def addressof_buffer(buf):
>         return ctypes.addressof(ctypes.c_char.from_buffer(buf))
>
>     >>> b = bytearray(b'spam')
>     >>> addressof_buffer(b)
>     2619159025048
>     >>> ctypes.string_at(2619159025048, 5)
>     b'spam\x00'
>

That's a good catch, that takes some of the stupider part out. 
Performance is still 5x slower, but if I'm really groveling for 200ns 
then I'm either using the wrong language or doing the wrong thing.

In [12]: from ctypes import *
In [13]: ba = bytearray(1024)
In [14]: cta = create_string_buffer(1024)

In [15]: %timeit(c_uint8.from_buffer(ba))
1000000 loops, best of 3: 252 ns per loop

In [16]: %timeit addressof(c_uint8.from_buffer(ba))
1000000 loops, best of 3: 284 ns per loop

In [17]: %timeit addressof(cta)
10000000 loops, best of 3: 52 ns per loop

-- 
Rob Gaddi, Highland Technology -- www.highlandtechnology.com
Email address domain is currently out of order.  See above to fix.


From python at mrabarnett.plus.com  Mon Apr 17 21:37:29 2017
From: python at mrabarnett.plus.com (MRAB)
Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2017 02:37:29 +0100
Subject: Looping [was Re: Python and the need for speed]
In-Reply-To: <874lxmh689.fsf@nightsong.com>
References: <768f9a44-5d90-4756-8a99-821253a491f8@googlegroups.com>
 <4277c149-e136-4d33-91d5-d011df9149f1@googlegroups.com>
 <58edcdd2$0$1501$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <fdb4a93a-688e-4a3f-bbc3-0df3ee1d2ac7@googlegroups.com>
 <54f1685d-1d2d-44b5-869e-a510569ba9d1@googlegroups.com>
 <lf5a87ln8k9.fsf@ling.helsinki.fi>
 <1d352948-9029-4b86-b2f1-2b52608109ea@googlegroups.com>
 <616ebaec-f140-491c-897e-f2c4b8368d28@googlegroups.com>
 <IboIA.298355$0L.88195@fx12.am4>
 <58f2dc43$0$1583$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <_6JIA.1041096$Pm3.778529@fx42.am4> <elid5kFqh32U1@mid.individual.net>
 <87shl7mrtf.fsf@elektro.pacujo.net> <od2eib$eno$2@blaine.gmane.org>
 <mailman.237.1492434618.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <87k26jvvpn.fsf@elektro.pacujo.net> <87efwqoqtz.fsf@bsb.me.uk>
 <87d1caubg2.fsf@elektro.pacujo.net> <87y3uymuuq.fsf@bsb.me.uk>
 <878tmyh8ct.fsf@nightsong.com> <87mvbemsrb.fsf@bsb.me.uk>
 <874lxmh689.fsf@nightsong.com>
Message-ID: <48ee4ff5-12de-41e3-92d3-dbc4c1ff48bd@mrabarnett.plus.com>

On 2017-04-18 02:09, Paul Rubin wrote:
> Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet at bsb.me.uk> writes:
>> ?  I get "AttributeError: 'itertools.dropwhile' object has no attribute
>> 'next'" from your example.
> 
> Hmm, .next() worked ok for me in Python 2.7.5.  Not sure what happened.
> Maybe something went wrong with my paste.  Oh well.
> 
>> Coming from the lazy language Haskell, I find your example natural...
> 
> Yep ;)
> 
Your mistake was that you didn't say it was Python 2. :-)

In Python 3 it's:

c = next(itertools.dropwhile(
      lambda c: c==' ',
      iter(lambda: sys.stdin.read(1),None)
      ))


From breamoreboy at gmail.com  Mon Apr 17 21:58:57 2017
From: breamoreboy at gmail.com (breamoreboy at gmail.com)
Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2017 18:58:57 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Looping [was Re: Python and the need for speed]
In-Reply-To: <874lxmh689.fsf@nightsong.com>
References: <768f9a44-5d90-4756-8a99-821253a491f8@googlegroups.com>
 <4277c149-e136-4d33-91d5-d011df9149f1@googlegroups.com>
 <58edcdd2$0$1501$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <fdb4a93a-688e-4a3f-bbc3-0df3ee1d2ac7@googlegroups.com>
 <54f1685d-1d2d-44b5-869e-a510569ba9d1@googlegroups.com>
 <lf5a87ln8k9.fsf@ling.helsinki.fi>
 <1d352948-9029-4b86-b2f1-2b52608109ea@googlegroups.com>
 <616ebaec-f140-491c-897e-f2c4b8368d28@googlegroups.com>
 <IboIA.298355$0L.88195@fx12.am4>
 <58f2dc43$0$1583$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <_6JIA.1041096$Pm3.778529@fx42.am4>
 <elid5kFqh32U1@mid.individual.net> <87shl7mrtf.fsf@elektro.pacujo.net>
 <od2eib$eno$2@blaine.gmane.org>
 <mailman.237.1492434618.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <87k26jvvpn.fsf@elektro.pacujo.net> <87efwqoqtz.fsf@bsb.me.uk>
 <87d1caubg2.fsf@elektro.pacujo.net> <87y3uymuuq.fsf@bsb.me.uk>
 <878tmyh8ct.fsf@nightsong.com> <87mvbemsrb.fsf@bsb.me.uk>
 <874lxmh689.fsf@nightsong.com>
Message-ID: <c7c942ba-fda2-4fc1-b3ba-cb70e2fc8a44@googlegroups.com>

On Tuesday, April 18, 2017 at 2:09:19 AM UTC+1, Paul Rubin wrote:
> Ben Bacarisse writes:
> > ?  I get "AttributeError: 'itertools.dropwhile' object has no attribute
> > 'next'" from your example.
> 
> Hmm, .next() worked ok for me in Python 2.7.5.  Not sure what happened.
> Maybe something went wrong with my paste.  Oh well.
> 

PEP 3114 -- Renaming iterator.next() to iterator.__next__() https://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-3114/

Kindest regards.

Mark Lawrence.


From eryksun at gmail.com  Mon Apr 17 22:11:09 2017
From: eryksun at gmail.com (eryk sun)
Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2017 02:11:09 +0000
Subject: Looping [was Re: Python and the need for speed]
In-Reply-To: <48ee4ff5-12de-41e3-92d3-dbc4c1ff48bd@mrabarnett.plus.com>
References: <768f9a44-5d90-4756-8a99-821253a491f8@googlegroups.com>
 <4277c149-e136-4d33-91d5-d011df9149f1@googlegroups.com>
 <58edcdd2$0$1501$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <fdb4a93a-688e-4a3f-bbc3-0df3ee1d2ac7@googlegroups.com>
 <54f1685d-1d2d-44b5-869e-a510569ba9d1@googlegroups.com>
 <lf5a87ln8k9.fsf@ling.helsinki.fi>
 <1d352948-9029-4b86-b2f1-2b52608109ea@googlegroups.com>
 <616ebaec-f140-491c-897e-f2c4b8368d28@googlegroups.com>
 <IboIA.298355$0L.88195@fx12.am4>
 <58f2dc43$0$1583$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <_6JIA.1041096$Pm3.778529@fx42.am4>
 <elid5kFqh32U1@mid.individual.net> <87shl7mrtf.fsf@elektro.pacujo.net>
 <od2eib$eno$2@blaine.gmane.org>
 <mailman.237.1492434618.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <87k26jvvpn.fsf@elektro.pacujo.net> <87efwqoqtz.fsf@bsb.me.uk>
 <87d1caubg2.fsf@elektro.pacujo.net> <87y3uymuuq.fsf@bsb.me.uk>
 <878tmyh8ct.fsf@nightsong.com> <87mvbemsrb.fsf@bsb.me.uk>
 <874lxmh689.fsf@nightsong.com>
 <48ee4ff5-12de-41e3-92d3-dbc4c1ff48bd@mrabarnett.plus.com>
Message-ID: <CACL+1aujJte9g2yXcsiF47wApsK+eAdnccku-DwSRNjLx8e_Fw@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Apr 18, 2017 at 1:37 AM, MRAB <python at mrabarnett.plus.com> wrote:
> In Python 3 it's:
>
> c = next(itertools.dropwhile(
>      lambda c: c==' ',
>      iter(lambda: sys.stdin.read(1),None)
>      ))

iter's sentinel should be an empty string.


From best_lay at yahoo.com  Mon Apr 17 22:19:33 2017
From: best_lay at yahoo.com (Wildman)
Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2017 21:19:33 -0500
Subject: Bigotry and hate speech on the python mailing list
References: <314147001.1421155.1492382990025.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
 <314147001.1421155.1492382990025@mail.yahoo.com>
 <mailman.234.1492420307.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <87pogahibl.fsf@nightsong.com> <85h91mbrmh.fsf@benfinney.id.au>
 <mailman.248.1492467823.2951.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <6dCdne4lweQo6mjFnZ2dnUU7-S-dnZ2d@giganews.com>

On Tue, 18 Apr 2017 08:23:34 +1000, Ben Finney wrote:

> Paul Rubin <no.email at nospam.invalid> writes:
> 
>> Rurpy <rurpy at yahoo.com> writes:
>> > A couple weeks ago a frequent poster here (Steve D'Aprano
>> > <steve+python at pearwood.info>) called another participant an "ugly
>> > american"
>>
>> Oh stop trolling.
> 
> Paul, that is uncalled for. The charge of bigotry is not to be lightly
> dismissed, and we do want to foster an environment here where people
> will feel welcome.

Your words remind me of this:

"The seriousness of the charge mandates that we investigate
this. Even though there is no evidence, the seriousness of
the charge is what matters."
  --Tom Foley (D) Speaker of the House


-- 
<Wildman> GNU/Linux user #557453
The cow died so I don't need your bull!


From tjreedy at udel.edu  Mon Apr 17 22:20:52 2017
From: tjreedy at udel.edu (Terry Reedy)
Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2017 22:20:52 -0400
Subject: Unable to use Python IDLE after downloading the application
In-Reply-To: <CA+jtgOVz3OVP97MS8BBj1BOT5R6VynmvWvQujW4Uq4LD930u8g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CA+jtgOVz3OVP97MS8BBj1BOT5R6VynmvWvQujW4Uq4LD930u8g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <od3t60$km7$1@blaine.gmane.org>

On 4/17/2017 5:06 PM, ASHISH A wrote:
> Hi Team,
>
> I have a 64 bit system with Windows 801 Pro OS. I tried to install Python
> 3.6.1 from the below link :
> https://www.python.org/downloads/
>
> It automatically downloaded that 32 bit Python application and tried to
> launch IDLE (32 bit). I could not launch IDLE and it gave me an error
> saying DLL file missing (attached snapshot). I have downloaded the DLL file
> and also installed Microsoft C++ redistributable 2015.(After following
> steps on you-tube to fix such DLL issues).
>
> I am still unable to launch IDLE .

Can you launch python and get a >>> prompt?
If so, can you run `import tkinter`.
Until the answer to both questions is 'yes', leave IDLE out of the 
discussion.

-- 
Terry Jan Reedy



From rurpy at yahoo.com  Mon Apr 17 22:23:28 2017
From: rurpy at yahoo.com (Rurpy)
Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2017 02:23:28 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: Bigotry and hate speech on the python mailing list
References: <2067199704.2357148.1492482208463.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <2067199704.2357148.1492482208463@mail.yahoo.com>

On 04/17/2017 04:38 AM, Ben Finney wrote:
> Rurpy via Python-list <python-list at python.org> writes:
> 
>> A couple weeks ago a frequent poster here (Steve D'Aprano
>> <steve+python at pearwood.info>) called another participant an "ugly
>> american" [*1].
> 
> He gave no explicit reference, and so I can see why you would think he
> did what you describe.
> 
> In fact, though, Steven in the message you link to stated:
> 
>     If you think that all these people, and hundreds of millions more,
>     will just "quietly change the filename" to ASCII because you're too
>     lazy, self-centred and arrogant to move on from 1963, then you truly
>     are an example of the Ugly American.
> 
> Again, it's not stated explicitly what Steven is referring to, so I can
> see why you would initially be confused.

There is no confusion on my part.  I don't like SJ discussions in technical 
newsgroups any more than you or anyone else here.  I read the relevant posts 
multiple times and thought long and carefully before deciding a response was 
necessary.

> But by now, with plenty of time to look into what was actually being
> discussed, surely you have noticed that Steven was *not* using physical
> appearance as an insult; nor was he using mere national origin as an
> insult.
> 
> Rather, the message is a reference to the Ugly American. Note the
> capitals Steven used; that is how a title is spelled.
> 
> The title ?Ugly American? is a reference to a stereotypical *attitude
> and behaviour*, given that name by the 1958 political novel of the same
> name <URL:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Ugly_American>.

I am and was well aware Mr. D'Aprano's reference was to the book and
derivative stereotype.  I am also aware that book titles are usually 
capitalized.  

(Just as an FYI that you might find useful... I find your response to
be rather condescending in tone.  I have a thick skin and am not easily
offended so no apology necessary but you might want to think about
your communication style sometime.)

> This is not using ugliness, nor American nationality, as an insult. It
> is a reference to objectionable behaviour as Steven described.
>
> Whether you agree that the behaviour described is objectionable, you can
> hopefully agree that naming objectionable behaviour to discourage it, is
> not in itself something to be discouraged.

Both now and in your original apologia for Steven [*1] you fail 
to recognize that there are different ways to point out what one
considers to be objectionable behavior.

Saying that committing crimes is bad, is one thing.  Employing 
the stereotype of African-Americans as criminals and saying that 
one shouldn't act like some black drug-dealing pimp is not. [*2]

> I can fault Steven for assuming that the reader would, by the novel's
> title alone, know of a mid-20th century novel reference or the
> stereotype it describes. That's not a breach of PSF CoC.
> 
> I can fault Steven for assuming that those who *don't* get the reference
> would not leap to the conclusion you've leapt to: that he was using
> national origin as an insult. That assumption on his part is
> unfortunate, and perhaps an apology would be good. Regardless of that,
> it is not a breach of the PSF CoC.

You are focusing here on minor issues, rather like criticizing 
a bank robber for not stopping at a stop sign during his getaway.

And let me repeat what I said above: I leapt to no conclusions; I 
thought carefully before replying.  Your presumption that I am just 
confused because I didn't get his reference is completely off the 
mark.

> What I can't fault him for is using national origin as a verbal weapon.
> He simply did not do that in the message you link to.

He used a stereotype based on national origin to attack someone
whose views he did not agree with.  He subsequently used a different 
stereotype based on age to dispute a view he didn't agree with.
In both cases he could have made his point without dragging in 
millions of other people who he implicitly criticizes on an issue
that is mostly subjective and opinion.

Both are fairly called bigotry as can be demonstrate by transposing 
the statements to other target groups we are more sensitive to
bigotry towards.

Both are in conflict with the PSFs CoC and Diversity statement.
You may nit-pick the words used to describe it, or its importance
but the facts are pretty clear.

>> Further, failure to censure Mr. D'Apano's comments communicates that
>> bigotry is acceptable here which understandably would give pause to
>> members of other groups often subject to bigotry.
> 
> Similarly, my elaboration here ? to give it the prominence you rightly
> say that the original sub-thread did not achieve ? should demonstrate to
> you that D'Aprano's comments did not constitute bigotry against any
> national origin.
> 
> The charge of bigotry is a strong one here, rightly so, and I think you
> for taking it seriously. Will you drop that charge now? If you won't, I
> think you need to show how this analysis is incorrect.

Some additional things you missed:

1. Language and culture change over time and 1958 standards are  
not necessarily valid in 2017.  The term "Ugly American" today is 
often used derogatorily.  Wikipedia has an entire article on derogatory 
sense of the term [*3]. For an even more dramatic example of a word 
that had no particular emotive effect in the past but which is virtually 
prohibited today, see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nigger

2. Ugly American is a stereotype.  Stereotypes are ill defined 
leaving the details to be filled in by individual and social biases.  
For example:
 What is the definition of ugly?  Is this definition widely 
 recognized and understood when someone hears the phrase?  How 
 many Americans are ugly?  Are Americans, percentage wise, more or
 less ugly then French people?  Chinese people?  Peruvian people? 
 If yes, how do you know that?  If no or you don't know, why is
 the reference to Americans there?
Without clear definitions, there is infinite room for people's biases 
to run rampant which is why stereotypes are so often employed when 
attacking specific groups of people or individuals in those groups.

3. "Old people aren't capable of learning new things" is another 
widely recognized stereotype.  D'Aprano's use of it was to disagree 
with a purely Python-related claim that some features of Python, 
many of them newer, hurt, not help, readability. 

4. Because stereotypes are so ill-defined they have a "kill radius" 
much larger than a target individual -- as a (hypothetical) American, 
am I an "Ugly American" because I once blew my nose on a Japanese 
train?  Exactly how culturally sensitive must an American be not to
be ugly?  The use of stereotypes thus will offend a large number of 
people who feel it includes them, unjustifiably.  This effect is can 
be used of course by by bigots who want to express their dislike of 
certain groups while maintaining: I was only talking about the bad 
ones!

5. You and Mr D'Aprano claim he was using the stereotype to criticize
one person whose behavior conformed (in his opinion) to that (ill-
defined and not universally accepted) stereotype but D'Aprano wrote:

  > Not all Americans, perhaps not even a majority or a plurality, 
  > are Ugly Americans, but there are enough of them to screw it up
  > for everyone else. [*4]

How is that "one person"?  US Presidential candidate Trump said:

  > They're bringing drugs. They're bringing crime. They're rapists. 
  > And some [perhaps even a majority or a plurality], I assume, are 
  > good people," 

Trump's remark was widely denounced as racist.  In form it seems pretty 
similar to D'Aprano's (comment in brackets added to help emphasize 
the similarity.)

6. Mr. D'Aprano made additional unprovoked comments such as this 
reference to the US elections.

  > I'm glad you didn't try to describe it [Ugly American stereotype]
  > as a *unfair* or *unjustified* stereotype, because (let's face it)
  > after November 8th 2016, that simply wouldn't fly. [*4]

While that may be his opinion, the half of the US that voted for Trump
did so for many different reasons and likely would not agree.  If Mr 
D'Aprano has any reliable, factual (in the scientific sense) information
I hope he'll share it with researchers who I'm sure will be interested.
In the meantime, such comments do not belong in this list.

7. Attacks based on stereotypes are unnecessary and gratuitous: simply
criticize the person for the perceived offensive behavior directly 
without using a stereotype as a proxy.

8. This group is for discussing Python, not for discussing the 
characteristics of various national, ethnic, religious, racial, 
political or other groups.  If one criticizes someone based on such 
a characterization then obviously the accuracy of the characterization 
itself becomes open for debate.  Most technical discussion groups 
don't want discussions to devolve into endless, emotional, unwinnable 
arguments over the validity of such characterizations, hence the common
prohibition of them.  


I hope the above makes clear why your analysis was in fact incorrect 
and why I stand by my original claim. 

And sorry for the length, I shortened it as much as I could but you 
missed a lot.

----
[*1] https://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-list/2017-April/720598.html
[*2] Obviously I am speaking in the context of discussion on this list. 
 Certainly there are times and places (such as a African-American dad
 talking to his wayward son) where such a comment would not be out of
 place.
[*3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ugly_American_(pejorative)
[*4] https://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-list/2017-April/720585.html



From nathan.ernst at gmail.com  Mon Apr 17 22:37:24 2017
From: nathan.ernst at gmail.com (Nathan Ernst)
Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2017 21:37:24 -0500
Subject: Unable to use Python IDLE after downloading the application
In-Reply-To: <od3t60$km7$1@blaine.gmane.org>
References: <CA+jtgOVz3OVP97MS8BBj1BOT5R6VynmvWvQujW4Uq4LD930u8g@mail.gmail.com>
 <od3t60$km7$1@blaine.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <CAPjBxg_nT7Jtua66E7pgGRvYoe7cv8m7bitt_1oLr0-yiYFCFg@mail.gmail.com>

Off topic, but I find it a little annoying that the default Windows
installer links to the 32-bit installer (and there's no adjacent 64-bit
installer link) - you have to dive into various links to get the 64-bit
installer. Seeing as 64-bit Windows is now the norm, it should be the
default. (It is possible, but creates a larger installer to support both 32
& 64-bit) It'd also be nice if the prerequisites for the installer could be
corrected so we no longer see the "I'm missing X.dll..." emails.

On Mon, Apr 17, 2017 at 9:20 PM, Terry Reedy <tjreedy at udel.edu> wrote:

> On 4/17/2017 5:06 PM, ASHISH A wrote:
>
>> Hi Team,
>>
>> I have a 64 bit system with Windows 801 Pro OS. I tried to install Python
>> 3.6.1 from the below link :
>> https://www.python.org/downloads/
>>
>> It automatically downloaded that 32 bit Python application and tried to
>> launch IDLE (32 bit). I could not launch IDLE and it gave me an error
>> saying DLL file missing (attached snapshot). I have downloaded the DLL
>> file
>> and also installed Microsoft C++ redistributable 2015.(After following
>> steps on you-tube to fix such DLL issues).
>>
>> I am still unable to launch IDLE .
>>
>
> Can you launch python and get a >>> prompt?
> If so, can you run `import tkinter`.
> Until the answer to both questions is 'yes', leave IDLE out of the
> discussion.
>
> --
> Terry Jan Reedy
>
> --
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
>


From rurpy at yahoo.com  Mon Apr 17 23:28:32 2017
From: rurpy at yahoo.com (Rurpy)
Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2017 03:28:32 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: Bigotry and hate speech on the python mailing list
References: <782983895.2381420.1492486112644.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <782983895.2381420.1492486112644@mail.yahoo.com>

On 04/17/2017 08:19 PM, Wildman via Python-list wrote:
> On Tue, 18 Apr 2017 08:23:34 +1000, Ben Finney wrote:
>> Paul Rubin <no.email at nospam.invalid> writes:
>>> Rurpy <rurpy at yahoo.com> writes:
>>>> A couple weeks ago a frequent poster here (Steve D'Aprano
>>>> <steve+python at pearwood.info>) called another participant an "ugly
>>>> american"
>>>
>>> Oh stop trolling.
>>
>> Paul, that is uncalled for. The charge of bigotry is not to be lightly
>> dismissed, and we do want to foster an environment here where people
>> will feel welcome.
> 
> Your words remind me of this:
> 
> "The seriousness of the charge mandates that we investigate
> this. Even though there is no evidence, the seriousness of
> the charge is what matters."
>   --Tom Foley (D) Speaker of the House

Amusing, like Bill Clinton's "depends what your definition
of is is", or Donald Rumsfeld's known unknowns and unknown 
unknowns.  But yet, isn't investigation what produces evidence?
Sometimes things that sound silly at first really aren't.


From marko at pacujo.net  Tue Apr 18 00:16:37 2017
From: marko at pacujo.net (Marko Rauhamaa)
Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2017 07:16:37 +0300
Subject: Looping [was Re: Python and the need for speed]
References: <768f9a44-5d90-4756-8a99-821253a491f8@googlegroups.com>
 <CAE6NSRD=xU_mNECNBU2w92Br=vgHJJVqSruGFrPB=vrbpkj0Nw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPjBxg_49OD_CNXUAHKjxYsUiLab4s_fCs_Ast3LyymB82zTCA@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.68.1491956914.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <4277c149-e136-4d33-91d5-d011df9149f1@googlegroups.com>
 <58edcdd2$0$1501$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <fdb4a93a-688e-4a3f-bbc3-0df3ee1d2ac7@googlegroups.com>
 <54f1685d-1d2d-44b5-869e-a510569ba9d1@googlegroups.com>
 <lf5a87ln8k9.fsf@ling.helsinki.fi>
 <1d352948-9029-4b86-b2f1-2b52608109ea@googlegroups.com>
 <616ebaec-f140-491c-897e-f2c4b8368d28@googlegroups.com>
 <IboIA.298355$0L.88195@fx12.am4>
 <58f2dc43$0$1583$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <_6JIA.1041096$Pm3.778529@fx42.am4> <elid5kFqh32U1@mid.individual.net>
 <87shl7mrtf.fsf@elektro.pacujo.net> <od2eib$eno$2@blaine.gmane.org>
 <mailman.237.1492434618.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <87k26jvvpn.fsf@elektro.pacujo.net> <elkvr0Fbe37U1@mid.individual.net>
Message-ID: <87pogagxju.fsf@elektro.pacujo.net>

Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing at canterbury.ac.nz>:

> Marko Rauhamaa wrote:
>> What I notice in my numbers is that about one half of my while loops
>> are "while True", and about a third of my loops are while loops.
>
> Out of curiosity, what proportion of your 'while True' loops are
> infinite? (I.e. no break, return or raise in the loop.)

0%


Marko


From steve+python at pearwood.info  Tue Apr 18 00:27:26 2017
From: steve+python at pearwood.info (Steve D'Aprano)
Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2017 14:27:26 +1000
Subject: Static typing [was Re: Python and the need for speed]
References: <768f9a44-5d90-4756-8a99-821253a491f8@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.5.1491710256.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <58e9e519$0$1528$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <mailman.9.1491728745.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <58ec9192$0$1602$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <oci97l$10u4$1@gioia.aioe.org>
 <58eceea2$0$1615$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <CAE6NSRD=xU_mNECNBU2w92Br=vgHJJVqSruGFrPB=vrbpkj0Nw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPjBxg_49OD_CNXUAHKjxYsUiLab4s_fCs_Ast3LyymB82zTCA@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.68.1491956914.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <4277c149-e136-4d33-91d5-d011df9149f1@googlegroups.com>
 <58edcdd2$0$1501$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <fdb4a93a-688e-4a3f-bbc3-0df3ee1d2ac7@googlegroups.com>
 <b003e7c4-4bc4-4478-b793-5f43a4360b55@googlegroups.com>
 <58f2f2b1$0$1599$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <58f49e7d$0$1590$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
Message-ID: <58f595b0$0$1603$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>

On Mon, 17 Apr 2017 08:52 pm, Steve D'Aprano wrote:

> but research does continue into using gradual typing for optimizations:
> 
> http://dl.acm.org/citation.cfm?id=2069175

Another interesting research project into speeding up Jython using type
hints:

http://scholar.colorado.edu/ecen_gradetds/57/

and more about gradual typing in Python:

http://homes.soic.indiana.edu/mvitouse/talks/stop12.pdf



-- 
Steve
?Cheer up,? they said, ?things could be worse.? So I cheered up, and sure
enough, things got worse.



From marko at pacujo.net  Tue Apr 18 00:41:26 2017
From: marko at pacujo.net (Marko Rauhamaa)
Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2017 07:41:26 +0300
Subject: Looping [was Re: Python and the need for speed]
References: <768f9a44-5d90-4756-8a99-821253a491f8@googlegroups.com>
 <CAPjBxg_49OD_CNXUAHKjxYsUiLab4s_fCs_Ast3LyymB82zTCA@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.68.1491956914.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <4277c149-e136-4d33-91d5-d011df9149f1@googlegroups.com>
 <58edcdd2$0$1501$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <fdb4a93a-688e-4a3f-bbc3-0df3ee1d2ac7@googlegroups.com>
 <54f1685d-1d2d-44b5-869e-a510569ba9d1@googlegroups.com>
 <lf5a87ln8k9.fsf@ling.helsinki.fi>
 <1d352948-9029-4b86-b2f1-2b52608109ea@googlegroups.com>
 <616ebaec-f140-491c-897e-f2c4b8368d28@googlegroups.com>
 <IboIA.298355$0L.88195@fx12.am4>
 <58f2dc43$0$1583$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <_6JIA.1041096$Pm3.778529@fx42.am4> <elid5kFqh32U1@mid.individual.net>
 <87shl7mrtf.fsf@elektro.pacujo.net> <od2eib$eno$2@blaine.gmane.org>
 <mailman.237.1492434618.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <87k26jvvpn.fsf@elektro.pacujo.net> <87efwqoqtz.fsf@bsb.me.uk>
 <87d1caubg2.fsf@elektro.pacujo.net> <87y3uymuuq.fsf@bsb.me.uk>
Message-ID: <87inm2gweh.fsf@elektro.pacujo.net>

Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet at bsb.me.uk>:

> Python opts for
>
>   while True:
>      c = sys.stdin.read(1)
>      if c != ' ': break

I opt for that in C and bash as well.

In fact, when I start writing a loop, I first type:

    while True:
        <cursor>

Once it is done, I might notice that the loop begins:

    while True:
        if ...
            break

and merge "while" and "if".


Marko


From rustompmody at gmail.com  Tue Apr 18 00:42:29 2017
From: rustompmody at gmail.com (Rustom Mody)
Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2017 21:42:29 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Bigotry and hate speech on the python mailing list
In-Reply-To: <mailman.249.1492476476.2951.python-list@python.org>
References: <314147001.1421155.1492382990025.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
 <314147001.1421155.1492382990025@mail.yahoo.com>
 <mailman.234.1492420307.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <87pogahibl.fsf@nightsong.com> <85h91mbrmh.fsf@benfinney.id.au>
 <58F56247.5030905@stoneleaf.us>
 <mailman.249.1492476476.2951.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <b0a09c71-8f4e-4c1d-a748-6c8faf0ebfcf@googlegroups.com>

On Tuesday, April 18, 2017 at 6:18:06 AM UTC+5:30, Ethan Furman wrote:
> On 04/17/2017 03:23 PM, Ben Finney wrote:
> > Paul Rubin writes:
> >> Rurpy writes:
> 
> >>> A couple weeks ago a frequent poster here (Steve D'Aprano)
> >>> called another participant an "ugly american"
> >>
> >> Oh stop trolling.
> >
> > Paul, that is uncalled for. The charge of bigotry is not to be lightly
> > dismissed, and we do want to foster an environment here where people
> > will feel welcome.
> 
> You mean all the non-religious people?
> 
> Because some of your signatures don't feel welcoming to people of faith:
> 
>   \         ?I think Western civilization is more enlightened precisely |
>    `\     because we have learned how to ignore our religious leaders.? |
> _o__)                                                ?Bill Maher, 2003 |
> 
>   \       ?Science shows that belief in God is not only obsolete. It is |
>    `\                        also incoherent.? ?Victor J. Stenger, 2001 |
> _o__)                                                                  |
> 
>   \       ?Give a man a fish, and you'll feed him for a day; give him a |
>    `\    religion, and he'll starve to death while praying for a fish.? |
> _o__)                                                       ?Anonymous |
> 
>   \           ?Prayer must never be answered: if it is, it ceases to be |
>    `\   prayer and becomes correspondence.? ?Oscar Wilde, _The Epigrams |
> _o__)                                            of Oscar Wilde_, 1952 |
> 
> >> Steven, please try to be a little more attentive to people's delicate
> >> feefees in the future. Rurpy, should that take care of it?
> >
> > No, that doesn't do it. Taking care of people's feelings is an essential
> > part of keeping a community healthy and welcoming, and your belittling
> > does not help with that.
> 
> Neither do (a subset of) your signatures, yet you refuse to filter them out:
> 
> [from previous email]
> > So I will continue to treat all those topics equally: peripheral
> > comments on beliefs are just part of respectful human discourse, so long
> > as I'm respectful of the people who may hold such beliefs.
> 
> So you're okay with respectfully making people of faith feel unwelcome?
> 
> --
> ~Ethan~

Thanks Ethan for bullseyeing the problem to the leftie-libbie lie called
'secularism'


From breamoreboy at gmail.com  Tue Apr 18 01:08:21 2017
From: breamoreboy at gmail.com (breamoreboy at gmail.com)
Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2017 22:08:21 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Bigotry and hate speech on the python mailing list
In-Reply-To: <mailman.234.1492420307.2951.python-list@python.org>
References: <314147001.1421155.1492382990025.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
 <314147001.1421155.1492382990025@mail.yahoo.com>
 <mailman.234.1492420307.2951.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <92479113-80ff-4efb-968c-42065b1aa81f@googlegroups.com>

On Monday, April 17, 2017 at 10:11:58 AM UTC+1, Rurpy wrote:
> A couple weeks ago a frequent poster here (Steve D'Aprano) called another participant an "ugly american" [*1].  This was followed just a couple weeks later with another post from Mr. D'Aprano attacking a participant as "an old man" who can't understand new technology, a blatant example of ageism [*2].
> 
> The PSF's Diversity statement [*3] explicitly calls out "age" and "national origin" as examples of personal attributes NOT to be used as verbal weapons.  It is also neither "considerate" or "respectful" as described in the PSF Code of Conduct [*4] to use national origin or age to attack someone.  In both cases it is reasonable to believe that some Americans or older people will, after reading Mr. D'Aprano's posts, feel uncomfortable posting to this list or responding to Mr. D'Aprano specifically on other issues, because they might well be attacked on the same grounds.  Further, failure to censure Mr. D'Apano's comments communicates that bigotry is acceptable here which understandably would give pause to members of other groups often subject to bigotry.
> 
> I posted a message in objection [*5] that got no response, I would like to think because it got lost in a long thread, not because bigotry is acceptable here and the CoC is just window dressing.
> 
> I also believe the PSF is registered in the US as a tax exempt organization which means it has a legal obligation not to permit discrimination against people based on national origin or age (and other distinctions).
> 
> Would someone from the PSF please publicly clarify exactly why the two cases cited are being treated as acceptable discourse in this list?
> 
> I am not trying to create a controversy for its own sake; when I first started reading this list many years ago I was appalled by rudeness displayed to newcomers coupled with instant anger by the regulars towards non-regulars at the slightest hint of rudeness (even imagined) towards them.  A decade later things have not changed much.  If I posted a remark about "dirty Chinese" (c.f. "ugly American") I would be (justifiably) slammed and likely ejected from the list.  Or if claims that not understanding new tech is a product of age are ok, then why can't I say disparagingly that someone "programs like a girl"?  When a popular poster here says such things, it is not only given a pass, it is actually defended!  
> 
> I am not personally in favor of censorship; the best response to hate speech is a reasoned counter argument IMO.  But if you are going to have a CoC, it must be applied even-handedly.  You cannot apply it when you want to unpopular posters and ignore it when it comes to a one of the clique of regulars.
> 
> ----
> [*1] https://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-list/2017-April/720531.html
> [*2] https://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-list/2017-April/721106.html
> [*3] https://www.python.org/community/diversity/
> [*4] https://www.python.org/psf/codeofconduct/
> [*5] https://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-list/2017-April/721135.html

As William Shakespeare put it "Much Ado About Nothing".

Kindest regards.

Mark Lawrence.


From marko at pacujo.net  Tue Apr 18 01:19:29 2017
From: marko at pacujo.net (Marko Rauhamaa)
Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2017 08:19:29 +0300
Subject: Bigotry and hate speech on the python mailing list
References: <314147001.1421155.1492382990025.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
 <314147001.1421155.1492382990025@mail.yahoo.com>
 <mailman.234.1492420307.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <87pogahibl.fsf@nightsong.com> <85h91mbrmh.fsf@benfinney.id.au>
 <58F56247.5030905@stoneleaf.us>
 <mailman.249.1492476476.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <b0a09c71-8f4e-4c1d-a748-6c8faf0ebfcf@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <87a87egun2.fsf@elektro.pacujo.net>

Rustom Mody <rustompmody at gmail.com>:

> On Tuesday, April 18, 2017 at 6:18:06 AM UTC+5:30, Ethan Furman wrote:
>> You mean all the non-religious people?
>> 
>> Because some of your signatures don't feel welcoming to people of
>> faith:
>
> Thanks Ethan for bullseyeing the problem to the leftie-libbie lie
> called 'secularism'

(You must be trolling, Rustom, but...)

Expressing one's (secular) faith is not bigotry, hate-speech or
harassment. It is questionable whether such expressions have a place in
a technology newsgroup, but the practice is as old as Usenet itself.


Marko


From greg.ewing at canterbury.ac.nz  Tue Apr 18 01:43:22 2017
From: greg.ewing at canterbury.ac.nz (Gregory Ewing)
Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2017 17:43:22 +1200
Subject: Static typing [was Re: Python and the need for speed]
In-Reply-To: <58f49e92$0$1590$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
References: <768f9a44-5d90-4756-8a99-821253a491f8@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.5.1491710256.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <58e9e519$0$1528$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <mailman.9.1491728745.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <58ec9192$0$1602$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <oci97l$10u4$1@gioia.aioe.org>
 <58eceea2$0$1615$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <CAE6NSRD=xU_mNECNBU2w92Br=vgHJJVqSruGFrPB=vrbpkj0Nw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPjBxg_49OD_CNXUAHKjxYsUiLab4s_fCs_Ast3LyymB82zTCA@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.68.1491956914.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <4277c149-e136-4d33-91d5-d011df9149f1@googlegroups.com>
 <58edcdd2$0$1501$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <fdb4a93a-688e-4a3f-bbc3-0df3ee1d2ac7@googlegroups.com>
 <b003e7c4-4bc4-4478-b793-5f43a4360b55@googlegroups.com>
 <58f2f2b1$0$1599$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <877f2jpnf7.fsf@nightsong.com>
 <58f49e92$0$1590$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
Message-ID: <ellnbsFfattU1@mid.individual.net>

Steve D'Aprano wrote:
> I'm not sure why the Cython devs maintain this is not a JIT compiler.
> Perhaps I misunderstand something.

A JIT compiler works by observing the actual values taken on
by variables at run time, and if it notices that a particular
variable seems to always have a particular type, it compiles
a special version of the code to handle that type, protected
by appropriate guards.

Cython doesn't do any of that -- it's just a plain, boring,
standard ahead-of-time compiler that goes by the type info
you give it and nothing more.

-- 
Greg


From ben+python at benfinney.id.au  Tue Apr 18 01:43:28 2017
From: ben+python at benfinney.id.au (Ben Finney)
Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2017 15:43:28 +1000
Subject: Bigotry and hate speech on the python mailing list
References: <314147001.1421155.1492382990025.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
 <314147001.1421155.1492382990025@mail.yahoo.com>
 <mailman.234.1492420307.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <87pogahibl.fsf@nightsong.com> <85h91mbrmh.fsf@benfinney.id.au>
 <58F56247.5030905@stoneleaf.us>
Message-ID: <85d1cab79b.fsf@benfinney.id.au>

Ethan Furman <ethan at stoneleaf.us> writes:

> You mean all the non-religious people?

No, I don't mean that.

> So you're okay with respectfully making people of faith feel
> unwelcome?

No, I'm not okay with that. As I said privately to you, the examples you
cite do not demonstrate disrespect to *people*.

They are disrespectful of *ideas*. Ideas are not inherently worthy of
respect, whether those ideas are religious beliefs, political
affiliation, taste in music, or code indentation style.

People, on the other hand, are inherently worthy of respect. I'm open to
evidence that I make people unwelcome as distinct from the ideas they
hold, and would try to change that.

I won't do it at the expense of treating some ideas, some attitudes, or
some behaviours, as somehow inherently deserving of special treatment.
That would be bigotry.

-- 
 \                ?Quote me as saying I was mis-quoted.? ?Groucho Marx |
  `\                                                                   |
_o__)                                                                  |
Ben Finney



From ben+python at benfinney.id.au  Tue Apr 18 01:54:17 2017
From: ben+python at benfinney.id.au (Ben Finney)
Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2017 15:54:17 +1000
Subject: Bigotry and hate speech on the python mailing list
References: <314147001.1421155.1492382990025.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
 <314147001.1421155.1492382990025@mail.yahoo.com>
 <mailman.234.1492420307.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <87pogahibl.fsf@nightsong.com> <85h91mbrmh.fsf@benfinney.id.au>
 <mailman.248.1492467823.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <6dCdne4lweQo6mjFnZ2dnUU7-S-dnZ2d@giganews.com>
Message-ID: <858tmyb6ra.fsf@benfinney.id.au>

Wildman via Python-list <python-list at python.org> writes:

> "The seriousness of the charge mandates that we investigate
> this. Even though there is no evidence, the seriousness of
> the charge is what matters."
>   --Tom Foley (D) Speaker of the House

That sounds right to me, provided one reads ?there is no evidence? as a
statement about what evidence is present before anyone goes looking for
it (?there is no evidence we are yet aware of?).

In other words: before any evidence exists and before the investigation
is made, it's a mistake to reach any conclusion about the truth of the
charge.

-- 
 \     ?I must have a prodigious quantity of mind; it takes me as much |
  `\   as a week sometimes to make it up.? ?Mark Twain, _The Innocents |
_o__)                                                          Abroad_ |
Ben Finney



From auriocus at gmx.de  Tue Apr 18 02:06:49 2017
From: auriocus at gmx.de (Christian Gollwitzer)
Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2017 08:06:49 +0200
Subject: Looping [was Re: Python and the need for speed]
In-Reply-To: <87y3uymuuq.fsf@bsb.me.uk>
References: <768f9a44-5d90-4756-8a99-821253a491f8@googlegroups.com>
 <CAPjBxg_49OD_CNXUAHKjxYsUiLab4s_fCs_Ast3LyymB82zTCA@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.68.1491956914.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <4277c149-e136-4d33-91d5-d011df9149f1@googlegroups.com>
 <58edcdd2$0$1501$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <fdb4a93a-688e-4a3f-bbc3-0df3ee1d2ac7@googlegroups.com>
 <54f1685d-1d2d-44b5-869e-a510569ba9d1@googlegroups.com>
 <lf5a87ln8k9.fsf@ling.helsinki.fi>
 <1d352948-9029-4b86-b2f1-2b52608109ea@googlegroups.com>
 <616ebaec-f140-491c-897e-f2c4b8368d28@googlegroups.com>
 <IboIA.298355$0L.88195@fx12.am4>
 <58f2dc43$0$1583$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <_6JIA.1041096$Pm3.778529@fx42.am4> <elid5kFqh32U1@mid.individual.net>
 <87shl7mrtf.fsf@elektro.pacujo.net> <od2eib$eno$2@blaine.gmane.org>
 <mailman.237.1492434618.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <87k26jvvpn.fsf@elektro.pacujo.net> <87efwqoqtz.fsf@bsb.me.uk>
 <87d1caubg2.fsf@elektro.pacujo.net> <87y3uymuuq.fsf@bsb.me.uk>
Message-ID: <od4a7u$7to$1@dont-email.me>

Am 18.04.17 um 02:18 schrieb Ben Bacarisse:

> Thanks (and to Grant).  IO seems to be the canonical example.  Where
> some languages would force one to write
>
>   c = sys.stdin.read(1)
>   while c == ' ':
>       c = sys.stdin.read(1)
>
> Python opts for
>
>   while True:
>      c = sys.stdin.read(1)
>      if c != ' ': break

This loop would be the archetypical do..while or repeat...until to me.

do
	c = sys.stdin.read(1)
while c== ' '


-or-

repeat
	c  = sys.stdin.read(1)
until c != ' '

is the most clear to me - and in fact this "while True; do something; 
break" thingy is just an idiom to fake a do..while loop in Python.
C does have it, for example, and it is way better like this than the 
abuse of assignment and comma operator in the condition.

	Christian


From rosuav at gmail.com  Tue Apr 18 02:21:19 2017
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2017 16:21:19 +1000
Subject: Looping [was Re: Python and the need for speed]
In-Reply-To: <od4a7u$7to$1@dont-email.me>
References: <768f9a44-5d90-4756-8a99-821253a491f8@googlegroups.com>
 <CAPjBxg_49OD_CNXUAHKjxYsUiLab4s_fCs_Ast3LyymB82zTCA@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.68.1491956914.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <4277c149-e136-4d33-91d5-d011df9149f1@googlegroups.com>
 <58edcdd2$0$1501$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <fdb4a93a-688e-4a3f-bbc3-0df3ee1d2ac7@googlegroups.com>
 <54f1685d-1d2d-44b5-869e-a510569ba9d1@googlegroups.com>
 <lf5a87ln8k9.fsf@ling.helsinki.fi>
 <1d352948-9029-4b86-b2f1-2b52608109ea@googlegroups.com>
 <616ebaec-f140-491c-897e-f2c4b8368d28@googlegroups.com>
 <IboIA.298355$0L.88195@fx12.am4>
 <58f2dc43$0$1583$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <_6JIA.1041096$Pm3.778529@fx42.am4> <elid5kFqh32U1@mid.individual.net>
 <87shl7mrtf.fsf@elektro.pacujo.net> <od2eib$eno$2@blaine.gmane.org>
 <mailman.237.1492434618.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <87k26jvvpn.fsf@elektro.pacujo.net>
 <87efwqoqtz.fsf@bsb.me.uk> <87d1caubg2.fsf@elektro.pacujo.net>
 <87y3uymuuq.fsf@bsb.me.uk> <od4a7u$7to$1@dont-email.me>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmp5CoGk1JXYeNZ7pAeq7dm1W8jUuB1dPOuCaSc-3FHt=g@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Apr 18, 2017 at 4:06 PM, Christian Gollwitzer <auriocus at gmx.de> wrote:
> Am 18.04.17 um 02:18 schrieb Ben Bacarisse:
>
>> Thanks (and to Grant).  IO seems to be the canonical example.  Where
>> some languages would force one to write
>>
>>   c = sys.stdin.read(1)
>>   while c == ' ':
>>       c = sys.stdin.read(1)
>>
>> Python opts for
>>
>>   while True:
>>      c = sys.stdin.read(1)
>>      if c != ' ': break
>
>
> This loop would be the archetypical do..while or repeat...until to me.
>
> do
>         c = sys.stdin.read(1)
> while c== ' '
>
>
> -or-
>
> repeat
>         c  = sys.stdin.read(1)
> until c != ' '

Except that there's processing code after it.

while True:
    c = sys.stdin.read(1)
    if not c: break
    if c.isprintable(): text += c
    elif c == "\x08": text = text[:-1]
    # etc

Can you write _that_ as a do-while?

ChrisA


From marko at pacujo.net  Tue Apr 18 02:33:27 2017
From: marko at pacujo.net (Marko Rauhamaa)
Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2017 09:33:27 +0300
Subject: Looping [was Re: Python and the need for speed]
References: <768f9a44-5d90-4756-8a99-821253a491f8@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.68.1491956914.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <4277c149-e136-4d33-91d5-d011df9149f1@googlegroups.com>
 <58edcdd2$0$1501$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <fdb4a93a-688e-4a3f-bbc3-0df3ee1d2ac7@googlegroups.com>
 <54f1685d-1d2d-44b5-869e-a510569ba9d1@googlegroups.com>
 <lf5a87ln8k9.fsf@ling.helsinki.fi>
 <1d352948-9029-4b86-b2f1-2b52608109ea@googlegroups.com>
 <616ebaec-f140-491c-897e-f2c4b8368d28@googlegroups.com>
 <IboIA.298355$0L.88195@fx12.am4>
 <58f2dc43$0$1583$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <_6JIA.1041096$Pm3.778529@fx42.am4> <elid5kFqh32U1@mid.individual.net>
 <87shl7mrtf.fsf@elektro.pacujo.net> <od2eib$eno$2@blaine.gmane.org>
 <mailman.237.1492434618.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <87k26jvvpn.fsf@elektro.pacujo.net> <87efwqoqtz.fsf@bsb.me.uk>
 <87d1caubg2.fsf@elektro.pacujo.net> <87y3uymuuq.fsf@bsb.me.uk>
 <od4a7u$7to$1@dont-email.me>
Message-ID: <87tw5musw8.fsf@elektro.pacujo.net>

Christian Gollwitzer <auriocus at gmx.de>:

> Am 18.04.17 um 02:18 schrieb Ben Bacarisse:
>> Python opts for
>>
>>   while True:
>>      c = sys.stdin.read(1)
>>      if c != ' ': break
>
> This loop would be the archetypical do..while or repeat...until to me.
>
> do
> 	c = sys.stdin.read(1)
> while c== ' '

No, the code continues. You want to do something with c, right?

> is the most clear to me - and in fact this "while True; do something;
> break" thingy is just an idiom to fake a do..while loop in Python. C
> does have it, for example, and it is way better like this than the
> abuse of assignment and comma operator in the condition.

I do use

   do ... while

in my C code whenever a loop would end in a conditional break. I happens
exceedingly rarely, though.


Marko


From auriocus at gmx.de  Tue Apr 18 03:20:43 2017
From: auriocus at gmx.de (Christian Gollwitzer)
Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2017 09:20:43 +0200
Subject: Looping [was Re: Python and the need for speed]
In-Reply-To: <mailman.258.1492496482.2951.python-list@python.org>
References: <768f9a44-5d90-4756-8a99-821253a491f8@googlegroups.com>
 <4277c149-e136-4d33-91d5-d011df9149f1@googlegroups.com>
 <58edcdd2$0$1501$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <fdb4a93a-688e-4a3f-bbc3-0df3ee1d2ac7@googlegroups.com>
 <54f1685d-1d2d-44b5-869e-a510569ba9d1@googlegroups.com>
 <lf5a87ln8k9.fsf@ling.helsinki.fi>
 <1d352948-9029-4b86-b2f1-2b52608109ea@googlegroups.com>
 <616ebaec-f140-491c-897e-f2c4b8368d28@googlegroups.com>
 <IboIA.298355$0L.88195@fx12.am4>
 <58f2dc43$0$1583$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <_6JIA.1041096$Pm3.778529@fx42.am4> <elid5kFqh32U1@mid.individual.net>
 <87shl7mrtf.fsf@elektro.pacujo.net> <od2eib$eno$2@blaine.gmane.org>
 <mailman.237.1492434618.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <87k26jvvpn.fsf@elektro.pacujo.net> <87efwqoqtz.fsf@bsb.me.uk>
 <87d1caubg2.fsf@elektro.pacujo.net> <87y3uymuuq.fsf@bsb.me.uk>
 <od4a7u$7to$1@dont-email.me>
 <CAPTjJmp5CoGk1JXYeNZ7pAeq7dm1W8jUuB1dPOuCaSc-3FHt=g@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.258.1492496482.2951.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <od4eig$jj4$1@dont-email.me>

Am 18.04.17 um 08:21 schrieb Chris Angelico:
> On Tue, Apr 18, 2017 at 4:06 PM, Christian Gollwitzer <auriocus at gmx.de> wrote:
>> Am 18.04.17 um 02:18 schrieb Ben Bacarisse:
>>
>>> Thanks (and to Grant).  IO seems to be the canonical example.  Where
>>> some languages would force one to write
>>>
>>>   c = sys.stdin.read(1)
>>>   while c == ' ':
>>>       c = sys.stdin.read(1)
>>
>> repeat
>>         c  = sys.stdin.read(1)
>> until c != ' '
>
> Except that there's processing code after it.
>

Sorry, I misread it then - Ben's code did NOT have it, it looks like a 
"skip the whitespace" loop.

> while True:
>     c = sys.stdin.read(1)
>     if not c: break
>     if c.isprintable(): text += c
>     elif c == "\x08": text = text[:-1]
>     # etc
>
> Can you write _that_ as a do-while?

No. This case OTOH looks like an iteration to me and it would be most 
logical to write

for c in sys.stdin:
      if c.isprintable(): text += c
      elif c == "\x08": text = text[:-1]
      # etc

except that this iterates over lines. Is there an analogous iterator for 
chars? For "lines" terminated by something else than "\n"?
"for c in get_chars(sys.stdin)" and
"for c in get_string(sys.stdin, terminate=':')" would be nicely readable 
IMHO. Or AWK-like processing:

for fields in get_fields(open('/etc/passwd'), RS='\n', FS=':'):
	if fields[2]=='0':
		print 'Super-User found:', fields[0]


	Christian


From jussi.piitulainen at helsinki.fi  Tue Apr 18 05:02:57 2017
From: jussi.piitulainen at helsinki.fi (Jussi Piitulainen)
Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2017 12:02:57 +0300
Subject: Looping [was Re: Python and the need for speed]
References: <768f9a44-5d90-4756-8a99-821253a491f8@googlegroups.com>
 <fdb4a93a-688e-4a3f-bbc3-0df3ee1d2ac7@googlegroups.com>
 <54f1685d-1d2d-44b5-869e-a510569ba9d1@googlegroups.com>
 <lf5a87ln8k9.fsf@ling.helsinki.fi>
 <1d352948-9029-4b86-b2f1-2b52608109ea@googlegroups.com>
 <616ebaec-f140-491c-897e-f2c4b8368d28@googlegroups.com>
 <IboIA.298355$0L.88195@fx12.am4>
 <58f2dc43$0$1583$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <_6JIA.1041096$Pm3.778529@fx42.am4> <elid5kFqh32U1@mid.individual.net>
 <87shl7mrtf.fsf@elektro.pacujo.net> <od2eib$eno$2@blaine.gmane.org>
 <mailman.237.1492434618.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <87k26jvvpn.fsf@elektro.pacujo.net> <87efwqoqtz.fsf@bsb.me.uk>
 <87d1caubg2.fsf@elektro.pacujo.net> <87y3uymuuq.fsf@bsb.me.uk>
 <od4a7u$7to$1@dont-email.me>
 <CAPTjJmp5CoGk1JXYeNZ7pAeq7dm1W8jUuB1dPOuCaSc-3FHt=g@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.258.1492496482.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <od4eig$jj4$1@dont-email.me>
Message-ID: <lf5bmruxf3y.fsf@ling.helsinki.fi>

Christian Gollwitzer writes:

> Am 18.04.17 um 08:21 schrieb Chris Angelico:
>> On Tue, Apr 18, 2017 at 4:06 PM, Christian Gollwitzer <auriocus at gmx.de> wrote:
>>> Am 18.04.17 um 02:18 schrieb Ben Bacarisse:
>>>
>>>> Thanks (and to Grant).  IO seems to be the canonical example.  Where
>>>> some languages would force one to write
>>>>
>>>>   c = sys.stdin.read(1)
>>>>   while c == ' ':
>>>>       c = sys.stdin.read(1)
>>>
>>> repeat
>>>         c  = sys.stdin.read(1)
>>> until c != ' '
>>
>> Except that there's processing code after it.
>>
>
> Sorry, I misread it then - Ben's code did NOT have it, it looks like a
> "skip the whitespace" loop.

It also reads the first character that is not whitespace, so it's not
usable to *merely* skip the whitespace.

>> while True:
>>     c = sys.stdin.read(1)
>>     if not c: break
>>     if c.isprintable(): text += c
>>     elif c == "\x08": text = text[:-1]
>>     # etc
>>
>> Can you write _that_ as a do-while?
>
> No. This case OTOH looks like an iteration to me and it would be most
> logical to write
>
> for c in sys.stdin:
>      if c.isprintable(): text += c
>      elif c == "\x08": text = text[:-1]
>      # etc
>
> except that this iterates over lines. Is there an analogous iterator
> for chars? For "lines" terminated by something else than "\n"?
> "for c in get_chars(sys.stdin)" and
> "for c in get_string(sys.stdin, terminate=':')" would be nicely
> readable IMHO. Or AWK-like processing:
>
> for fields in get_fields(open('/etc/passwd'), RS='\n', FS=':'):
> 	if fields[2]=='0':
> 		print 'Super-User found:', fields[0]

I don't know if those exist in some standard library, but they are easy
to write, and I do it all the time. I don't need the chars one, but I do
tab-separated fields and line-separated groups of tab-separated fields,
and variations.

for s, sentence in enumerate(sentences(sys.stdin)):
    for k, token in enumerate(sentence):
        ...
        token[LEMMA] or warn('empty LEMMA', s, k, sentence)
        ...

The wrapper function around sys.stdin or other text source is different
depending on the data format. Sometimes it's messy, sometimes not. Any
messy details are hidden the wrapper.


From davidgshi at yahoo.co.uk  Tue Apr 18 05:23:17 2017
From: davidgshi at yahoo.co.uk (David Shi)
Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2017 09:23:17 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: How to do pd.read_csv with consecutive spaces or semi-colon as
 delimiters?
References: <1535353715.3531727.1492507397113.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <1535353715.3531727.1492507397113@mail.yahoo.com>



Any way to do that?
The link to a sample dataset is as follows:
http://www.ebi.ac.uk/ena/data/warehouse/search?query=%22geo_circ(-0.587,-90.5713,170)%22&result=sequence_release&display=text
Looking forward to hearing from you.
Regards.
David


From jsmcmahon3 at gmail.com  Tue Apr 18 05:30:23 2017
From: jsmcmahon3 at gmail.com (James McMahon)
Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2017 05:30:23 -0400
Subject: Bigotry and hate speech on the python mailing list
In-Reply-To: <58F56247.5030905@stoneleaf.us>
References: <314147001.1421155.1492382990025.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
 <314147001.1421155.1492382990025@mail.yahoo.com>
 <mailman.234.1492420307.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <87pogahibl.fsf@nightsong.com> <85h91mbrmh.fsf@benfinney.id.au>
 <58F56247.5030905@stoneleaf.us>
Message-ID: <CAEqJCe3ysUs05oi5qFO+27=3YYojjdk5ikqpEMt1m7zX8UXNRw@mail.gmail.com>

Can the moderators please get involved here and remind people to address
python related topics and questions on the python mailing list? While I can
only speak to my interest when joining this list, isn't python why
most people joined this list? Others have different and polarizing views on
many subjects. This just isn't the right place to voice your views on
subjects other than python. I delete this same tired thread every day, and
every day it reappears. With all manners and due respect, stay on topic.

Isn't this list content moderated by anyone?

-Jim

On Mon, Apr 17, 2017 at 8:48 PM, Ethan Furman <ethan at stoneleaf.us> wrote:

> On 04/17/2017 03:23 PM, Ben Finney wrote:
>
>> Paul Rubin writes:
>>
>>> Rurpy writes:
>>>
>>
> A couple weeks ago a frequent poster here (Steve D'Aprano)
>>>> called another participant an "ugly american"
>>>>
>>>
>>> Oh stop trolling.
>>>
>>
>> Paul, that is uncalled for. The charge of bigotry is not to be lightly
>> dismissed, and we do want to foster an environment here where people
>> will feel welcome.
>>
>
> You mean all the non-religious people?
>
> Because some of your signatures don't feel welcoming to people of faith:
>
>  \         ?I think Western civilization is more enlightened precisely |
>   `\     because we have learned how to ignore our religious leaders.? |
> _o__)                                                ?Bill Maher, 2003 |
>
>  \       ?Science shows that belief in God is not only obsolete. It is |
>   `\                        also incoherent.? ?Victor J. Stenger, 2001 |
> _o__)                                                                  |
>
>  \       ?Give a man a fish, and you'll feed him for a day; give him a |
>   `\    religion, and he'll starve to death while praying for a fish.? |
> _o__)                                                       ?Anonymous |
>
>  \           ?Prayer must never be answered: if it is, it ceases to be |
>   `\   prayer and becomes correspondence.? ?Oscar Wilde, _The Epigrams |
> _o__)                                            of Oscar Wilde_, 1952 |
>
> Steven, please try to be a little more attentive to people's delicate
>>> feefees in the future. Rurpy, should that take care of it?
>>>
>>
>> No, that doesn't do it. Taking care of people's feelings is an essential
>> part of keeping a community healthy and welcoming, and your belittling
>> does not help with that.
>>
>
> Neither do (a subset of) your signatures, yet you refuse to filter them
> out:
>
> [from previous email]
>
>> So I will continue to treat all those topics equally: peripheral
>> comments on beliefs are just part of respectful human discourse, so long
>> as I'm respectful of the people who may hold such beliefs.
>>
>
> So you're okay with respectfully making people of faith feel unwelcome?
>
> --
> ~Ethan~
> --
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
>


From python at lucidity.plus.com  Tue Apr 18 05:32:45 2017
From: python at lucidity.plus.com (Erik)
Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2017 10:32:45 +0100
Subject: Python and the need for speed
In-Reply-To: <6f8fc379-51f1-897d-f099-ebcee2be68fa@mrabarnett.plus.com>
References: <768f9a44-5d90-4756-8a99-821253a491f8@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.9.1491728745.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <58ec9192$0$1602$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <oci97l$10u4$1@gioia.aioe.org>
 <58eceea2$0$1615$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <CAE6NSRD=xU_mNECNBU2w92Br=vgHJJVqSruGFrPB=vrbpkj0Nw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPjBxg_49OD_CNXUAHKjxYsUiLab4s_fCs_Ast3LyymB82zTCA@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.68.1491956914.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <4277c149-e136-4d33-91d5-d011df9149f1@googlegroups.com>
 <58edcdd2$0$1501$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <fdb4a93a-688e-4a3f-bbc3-0df3ee1d2ac7@googlegroups.com>
 <54f1685d-1d2d-44b5-869e-a510569ba9d1@googlegroups.com>
 <lf5a87ln8k9.fsf@ling.helsinki.fi>
 <1d352948-9029-4b86-b2f1-2b52608109ea@googlegroups.com>
 <el7qd0Fpai9U1@mid.individual.net>
 <2759e6e0-ad95-466c-81f6-556133620999@googlegroups.com>
 <58ef31ee$0$1501$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <6f8fc379-51f1-897d-f099-ebcee2be68fa@mrabarnett.plus.com>
Message-ID: <bbf096e5-34a7-7a2c-8f37-3c6c3428c3b1@lucidity.plus.com>

On 13/04/17 18:50, MRAB wrote:
> On 2017-04-13 09:08, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
>> On Wed, 12 Apr 2017 16:30:38 -0700, bart4858 wrote:
>> Is it possible to skip the STORE_NAME op-code? If you knew *for sure*
>> that the target (x) was a mutable object which implemented += using an
>> in-
>> place mutation, then you could, but the only built-in where that applies
>> is list so even if you could guarantee x was a list, it hardly seems
>> worth the bother.
>>
> If the reference to be stored by STORE_NAME is the same as the reference
> returned by LOAD_NAME, then STORE_NAME could be omitted.
>
> That would just mean remembering that address.

When considering special-casing this opcode sequence, remember that 
in-place operations can be performed on anonymous objects (i.e., those 
referenced by a collection and not bound directly to a namespace):

 >>> import dis
 >>> dis.dis(compile("x = [0, 1, 2]; x[1] += 1;", "", "single"))
   1           0 LOAD_CONST               0 (0)
               3 LOAD_CONST               1 (1)
               6 LOAD_CONST               2 (2)
               9 BUILD_LIST               3
              12 STORE_NAME               0 (x)
              15 LOAD_NAME                0 (x)
              18 LOAD_CONST               1 (1)
              21 DUP_TOP_TWO
              22 BINARY_SUBSCR
              23 LOAD_CONST               1 (1)
              26 INPLACE_ADD
              27 ROT_THREE
              28 STORE_SUBSCR
              29 LOAD_CONST               3 (None)
              32 RETURN_VALUE

So in this case, the STORE_SUBSCR does the re-binding, but it is 
separated from the INPLACE_ADD by another opcode.

I'm not saying it's impossible to fold the re-binding into a (set of) 
special new opcode(s), but I am saying it's more complex than at first 
it appears.



FWIW, I spent some time about a year ago looking at things like this 
(small improvements to the peephole optimizer which allowed certain very 
common sequences to be folded into a (new) opcode which in turn allowed 
other optimizations to avoid branching). The changes worked, but didn't 
actually improve performance significantly in my tests (which is why I 
ended up not bothering to propose anything).

I remember back in the day (circa 1.5.2?) that 
trips-around-the-interpreter-loop were significant and avoiding them 
could give wins. However, in the current CPython interpreter, the 
improvements over the original huge switch() to dispatch the bytecodes 
to the correct handler appear to have made this type of optimization 
less effective. That was my conclusion at the time, anyway - I only had 
about a week to experiment with it.

E.


From __peter__ at web.de  Tue Apr 18 05:42:50 2017
From: __peter__ at web.de (Peter Otten)
Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2017 11:42:50 +0200
Subject: How to do pd.read_csv with consecutive spaces or semi-colon as
 delimiters?
References: <1535353715.3531727.1492507397113.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
 <1535353715.3531727.1492507397113@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <od4n2m$lk2$1@blaine.gmane.org>

David Shi via Python-list wrote:

> Any way to do that?
> The link to a sample dataset is as follows:
> 
http://www.ebi.ac.uk/ena/data/warehouse/search?query=%22geo_circ(-0.587,-90.5713,170)%22&result=sequence_release&display=text
> Looking forward to hearing from you.
> Regards.
> David

David, please stop reposting this question here again and and again, with 
only minor variations. The data you are trying to process is not in CSV 
format, so you have to look elsewhere to preprocess it.

If there are tools available in Python to achieve your goal they may be part 
of biopython, or there may be domain experts on the biopython mailing list

http://biopython.org/wiki/Mailing_lists

who know how to proceed. I recommend that you ask there, but with a few more 
details on what you are trying to achieve so that you don't come across as 
lazy and careless as with your above posting.

Thank you, and good luck.



From breamoreboy at gmail.com  Tue Apr 18 05:52:10 2017
From: breamoreboy at gmail.com (breamoreboy at gmail.com)
Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2017 02:52:10 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: How to do pd.read_csv with consecutive spaces or semi-colon as
 delimiters?
In-Reply-To: <mailman.259.1492507528.2951.python-list@python.org>
References: <1535353715.3531727.1492507397113.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
 <1535353715.3531727.1492507397113@mail.yahoo.com>
 <mailman.259.1492507528.2951.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <71bbf6f1-7500-42c6-b11c-800daa93ae60@googlegroups.com>

On Tuesday, April 18, 2017 at 10:25:51 AM UTC+1, David Shi wrote:
> Any way to do that?
> The link to a sample dataset is as follows:
> http://www.ebi.ac.uk/ena/data/warehouse/search?query=%22geo_circ(-0.587,-90.5713,170)%22&result=sequence_release&display=text
> Looking forward to hearing from you.
> Regards.
> David

After less than one minute searching I found http://pandas.pydata.org/pandas-docs/stable/generated/pandas.read_csv.html.  It's the last time I do this for you as your repeated questions show no attempt at trying anything for yourself.  You haven't even had the common courtesy to respond when I have given you links in response to those questions.

Kindest regards.

Mark Lawrence.


From bc at freeuk.com  Tue Apr 18 06:30:35 2017
From: bc at freeuk.com (bartc)
Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2017 11:30:35 +0100
Subject: Python and the need for speed
In-Reply-To: <mailman.261.1492507975.2951.python-list@python.org>
References: <768f9a44-5d90-4756-8a99-821253a491f8@googlegroups.com>
 <oci97l$10u4$1@gioia.aioe.org>
 <58eceea2$0$1615$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <CAE6NSRD=xU_mNECNBU2w92Br=vgHJJVqSruGFrPB=vrbpkj0Nw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPjBxg_49OD_CNXUAHKjxYsUiLab4s_fCs_Ast3LyymB82zTCA@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.68.1491956914.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <4277c149-e136-4d33-91d5-d011df9149f1@googlegroups.com>
 <58edcdd2$0$1501$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <fdb4a93a-688e-4a3f-bbc3-0df3ee1d2ac7@googlegroups.com>
 <54f1685d-1d2d-44b5-869e-a510569ba9d1@googlegroups.com>
 <lf5a87ln8k9.fsf@ling.helsinki.fi>
 <1d352948-9029-4b86-b2f1-2b52608109ea@googlegroups.com>
 <el7qd0Fpai9U1@mid.individual.net>
 <2759e6e0-ad95-466c-81f6-556133620999@googlegroups.com>
 <58ef31ee$0$1501$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <6f8fc379-51f1-897d-f099-ebcee2be68fa@mrabarnett.plus.com>
 <bbf096e5-34a7-7a2c-8f37-3c6c3428c3b1@lucidity.plus.com>
 <mailman.261.1492507975.2951.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <bVlJA.908395$w46.615568@fx39.am4>

On 18/04/2017 10:32, Erik wrote:

> FWIW, I spent some time about a year ago looking at things like this
> (small improvements to the peephole optimizer which allowed certain very
> common sequences to be folded into a (new) opcode which in turn allowed
> other optimizations to avoid branching). The changes worked, but didn't
> actually improve performance significantly in my tests (which is why I
> ended up not bothering to propose anything).
>
> I remember back in the day (circa 1.5.2?) that
> trips-around-the-interpreter-loop were significant and avoiding them
> could give wins. However, in the current CPython interpreter, the
> improvements over the original huge switch() to dispatch the bytecodes
> to the correct handler appear to have made this type of optimization
> less effective.

What did they do to it, and on which version? I've just downloaded 3.6.1 
and it was about 17% faster than 3.4.3 on running that test I posted a 
few days ago.

This was on Windows.

But I also looked at CPython a couple of years back with a view to doing 
something with it. I didn't manage anything, but learned that the 
gcc-compiled Linux version enabled label-pointers in place of the big 
switch, while the MSVC-compiled Windows version still used the switch.

The differences (on small integer benchmarks) were also 15% or so.

(I couldn't get anywhere with CPython because:

(1) It's so complicated that I could only build on Linux

(2) It depends on configure scripts and makefiles that I have no idea about

(3) None of my tools (editors etc) work on Linux so it was awkward 
(although cross-OS working using a real Windows and a virtual Linux 
would have been viable I suppose.)

(4) But the project was just too complicated to find my way around. It 
would have taken ages (the source is full of conditional blocks of code, 
and uses macros everywhere).

The thing I had in mind, that I've used elsewhere, was to add an extra 
layer to the byte-code dispatcher, written in assembly in its own module.

This has a dispatch loop (using 'threaded' code and with 
register-resident interpreter variables) which intercepts each 
byte-code, looks at it, and passes it on to the standard dispatcher if 
it can't deal with it.

So initially it would slow it down. But then you gradually add local 
handling of simple byte-codes, and eventually it gets faster than 
running the 100% HLL version.

But another problem was, there /are/ no simple byte-codes in CPython! Or 
very few (jump-absolute for example). Another optimisation for something 
like ADD, was to to check for very common types such as INT, and deal 
with those locally. But the handling required in the C code even for 
that looked horrendous.

You need to be able to able to handle such cases in a dozen lines of 
assembly, otherwise the code gets impractical.

If that had worked, then further optimisations are possible, such as 
doing a pre-pass combining common operations, that would not be 
worthwhile using 'official' byte-codes.)

-- 
bartc


From ndbecker2 at gmail.com  Tue Apr 18 07:23:20 2017
From: ndbecker2 at gmail.com (Neal Becker)
Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2017 07:23:20 -0400
Subject: Buffers and pointers (Py3.4)
References: <od2vid$mp1$1@dont-email.me>
Message-ID: <od4sv2$m9q$1@blaine.gmane.org>

When I worked on talking to some hardware in the past, the hardware was 
directly mapped to memory, and then numpy mmap worked great.  Maybe not the 
same hardware interface you have.

Rob Gaddi wrote:

> So long as we're all feeling so concerned about speed lately...
> 
> I've got a piece of hardware that allows me to call a C library that
> calls an ioctl() that kicks off a DMA transfer and moves data between
> process memory and external hardware.  I would like a way to turn an
> arbitrary object implementing the buffer protocol into a pointer so that
> I can pass that pointer to the library to be passed to the hardware to
> stream my data.
> 
> The obvious question on your minds is why on earth am I doing this.
> Example case: my hardware is being used as a bridge to talk to a 16
> channel transient digitizer, acquiring data at 500 ksps per channel.  I
> would like my Python application to be able to acquire, say, 10M samples
> per channel.  I can have a list of 16 10M NumPy arrays, and every 5 ms I
> can request a single DMA transfer to grab all the new data that's been
> acquired and push it, zero-copy, into my arrays before the hardware
> FIFOs get full and I start losing data.
> 
> If I knew the buffers would always be NumPy arrays I could use
> ndarray.ctypes.data to get the pointer.  Always ctypes buffers, I could
> just use ctypes.addressof.  In either case I can flip them into
> memoryviews, but nothing seems to give me a pointer from that.
> Bytearrays, array.arrarys..., I've got nothin'.
> 
> If I were writing this as a C extension, getting that information from
> any buffer object would be trivial, but that changes my project from a
> pure Python wrapper using ctypes to a mixed language project with
> compile dependencies and mental headaches.
> 
>    buffertype = c_uint8 * size
>    return addressof(buffertype.from_buffer(buf, offset))
> 
> works but is inefficient and woefully inelegant.  I saw some discussion
> on the ctypes bug tracker https://bugs.python.org/issue27274 about this
> nearly a year ago, but no actual action.
> 
> I really want to take all of this low-level horribleness, wrap it up
> into a higher-level API, and never be subject to the gory details again.
>   This pointer thing is about the last hangup.  Ideas?
> 




From davidgshi at yahoo.co.uk  Tue Apr 18 09:14:39 2017
From: davidgshi at yahoo.co.uk (David Shi)
Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2017 13:14:39 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: Pressing dot and show sub command in IPython
References: <412528245.3872897.1492521279734.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <412528245.3872897.1492521279734@mail.yahoo.com>

Hi, Matt,
How to make IPython work more interactively?
As I remember, pressing dot and sub command shows up suggestively in IPython.
But, now, after re-installing IPython notebook, it does not do so any more.
Looking forward to hearing from you.
Regards.
David

From nimbiotics at gmail.com  Tue Apr 18 09:16:27 2017
From: nimbiotics at gmail.com (Mario R. Osorio)
Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2017 06:16:27 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Bigotry and hate speech on the python mailing list
In-Reply-To: <mailman.253.1492482459.2951.python-list@python.org>
References: <2067199704.2357148.1492482208463.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
 <2067199704.2357148.1492482208463@mail.yahoo.com>
 <mailman.253.1492482459.2951.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <bea08728-6db0-4124-9686-a9d418f9c7ba@googlegroups.com>

On Monday, April 17, 2017 at 10:27:50 PM UTC-4, Rurpy wrote:
> On 04/17/2017 04:38 AM, Ben Finney wrote:
> > Rurpy via Python-list <python-list at python.org> writes:
> > 
> >> A couple weeks ago a frequent poster here (Steve D'Aprano
> >> <steve+python at pearwood.info>) called another participant an "ugly
> >> american" [*1].
> > 
> > He gave no explicit reference, and so I can see why you would think he
> > did what you describe.
> > 
> > In fact, though, Steven in the message you link to stated:
> > 
> >     If you think that all these people, and hundreds of millions more,
> >     will just "quietly change the filename" to ASCII because you're too
> >     lazy, self-centred and arrogant to move on from 1963, then you truly
> >     are an example of the Ugly American.
> > 
> > Again, it's not stated explicitly what Steven is referring to, so I can
> > see why you would initially be confused.
> 
> There is no confusion on my part.  I don't like SJ discussions in technical 
> newsgroups any more than you or anyone else here.  I read the relevant posts 
> multiple times and thought long and carefully before deciding a response was 
> necessary.
> 
> > But by now, with plenty of time to look into what was actually being
> > discussed, surely you have noticed that Steven was *not* using physical
> > appearance as an insult; nor was he using mere national origin as an
> > insult.
> > 
> > Rather, the message is a reference to the Ugly American. Note the
> > capitals Steven used; that is how a title is spelled.
> > 
> > The title ?Ugly American? is a reference to a stereotypical *attitude
> > and behaviour*, given that name by the 1958 political novel of the same
> > name <URL:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Ugly_American>.
> 
> I am and was well aware Mr. D'Aprano's reference was to the book and
> derivative stereotype.  I am also aware that book titles are usually 
> capitalized.  
> 
> (Just as an FYI that you might find useful... I find your response to
> be rather condescending in tone.  I have a thick skin and am not easily
> offended so no apology necessary but you might want to think about
> your communication style sometime.)
> 
> > This is not using ugliness, nor American nationality, as an insult. It
> > is a reference to objectionable behaviour as Steven described.
> >
> > Whether you agree that the behaviour described is objectionable, you can
> > hopefully agree that naming objectionable behaviour to discourage it, is
> > not in itself something to be discouraged.
> 
> Both now and in your original apologia for Steven [*1] you fail 
> to recognize that there are different ways to point out what one
> considers to be objectionable behavior.
> 
> Saying that committing crimes is bad, is one thing.  Employing 
> the stereotype of African-Americans as criminals and saying that 
> one shouldn't act like some black drug-dealing pimp is not. [*2]
> 
> > I can fault Steven for assuming that the reader would, by the novel's
> > title alone, know of a mid-20th century novel reference or the
> > stereotype it describes. That's not a breach of PSF CoC.
> > 
> > I can fault Steven for assuming that those who *don't* get the reference
> > would not leap to the conclusion you've leapt to: that he was using
> > national origin as an insult. That assumption on his part is
> > unfortunate, and perhaps an apology would be good. Regardless of that,
> > it is not a breach of the PSF CoC.
> 
> You are focusing here on minor issues, rather like criticizing 
> a bank robber for not stopping at a stop sign during his getaway.
> 
> And let me repeat what I said above: I leapt to no conclusions; I 
> thought carefully before replying.  Your presumption that I am just 
> confused because I didn't get his reference is completely off the 
> mark.
> 
> > What I can't fault him for is using national origin as a verbal weapon.
> > He simply did not do that in the message you link to.
> 
> He used a stereotype based on national origin to attack someone
> whose views he did not agree with.  He subsequently used a different 
> stereotype based on age to dispute a view he didn't agree with.
> In both cases he could have made his point without dragging in 
> millions of other people who he implicitly criticizes on an issue
> that is mostly subjective and opinion.
> 
> Both are fairly called bigotry as can be demonstrate by transposing 
> the statements to other target groups we are more sensitive to
> bigotry towards.
> 
> Both are in conflict with the PSFs CoC and Diversity statement.
> You may nit-pick the words used to describe it, or its importance
> but the facts are pretty clear.
> 
> >> Further, failure to censure Mr. D'Apano's comments communicates that
> >> bigotry is acceptable here which understandably would give pause to
> >> members of other groups often subject to bigotry.
> > 
> > Similarly, my elaboration here ? to give it the prominence you rightly
> > say that the original sub-thread did not achieve ? should demonstrate to
> > you that D'Aprano's comments did not constitute bigotry against any
> > national origin.
> > 
> > The charge of bigotry is a strong one here, rightly so, and I think you
> > for taking it seriously. Will you drop that charge now? If you won't, I
> > think you need to show how this analysis is incorrect.
> 
> Some additional things you missed:
> 
> 1. Language and culture change over time and 1958 standards are  
> not necessarily valid in 2017.  The term "Ugly American" today is 
> often used derogatorily.  Wikipedia has an entire article on derogatory 
> sense of the term [*3]. For an even more dramatic example of a word 
> that had no particular emotive effect in the past but which is virtually 
> prohibited today, see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nigger
> 
> 2. Ugly American is a stereotype.  Stereotypes are ill defined 
> leaving the details to be filled in by individual and social biases.  
> For example:
>  What is the definition of ugly?  Is this definition widely 
>  recognized and understood when someone hears the phrase?  How 
>  many Americans are ugly?  Are Americans, percentage wise, more or
>  less ugly then French people?  Chinese people?  Peruvian people? 
>  If yes, how do you know that?  If no or you don't know, why is
>  the reference to Americans there?
> Without clear definitions, there is infinite room for people's biases 
> to run rampant which is why stereotypes are so often employed when 
> attacking specific groups of people or individuals in those groups.
> 
> 3. "Old people aren't capable of learning new things" is another 
> widely recognized stereotype.  D'Aprano's use of it was to disagree 
> with a purely Python-related claim that some features of Python, 
> many of them newer, hurt, not help, readability. 
> 
> 4. Because stereotypes are so ill-defined they have a "kill radius" 
> much larger than a target individual -- as a (hypothetical) American, 
> am I an "Ugly American" because I once blew my nose on a Japanese 
> train?  Exactly how culturally sensitive must an American be not to
> be ugly?  The use of stereotypes thus will offend a large number of 
> people who feel it includes them, unjustifiably.  This effect is can 
> be used of course by by bigots who want to express their dislike of 
> certain groups while maintaining: I was only talking about the bad 
> ones!
> 
> 5. You and Mr D'Aprano claim he was using the stereotype to criticize
> one person whose behavior conformed (in his opinion) to that (ill-
> defined and not universally accepted) stereotype but D'Aprano wrote:
> 
>   > Not all Americans, perhaps not even a majority or a plurality, 
>   > are Ugly Americans, but there are enough of them to screw it up
>   > for everyone else. [*4]
> 
> How is that "one person"?  US Presidential candidate Trump said:
> 
>   > They're bringing drugs. They're bringing crime. They're rapists. 
>   > And some [perhaps even a majority or a plurality], I assume, are 
>   > good people," 
> 
> Trump's remark was widely denounced as racist.  In form it seems pretty 
> similar to D'Aprano's (comment in brackets added to help emphasize 
> the similarity.)
> 
> 6. Mr. D'Aprano made additional unprovoked comments such as this 
> reference to the US elections.
> 
>   > I'm glad you didn't try to describe it [Ugly American stereotype]
>   > as a *unfair* or *unjustified* stereotype, because (let's face it)
>   > after November 8th 2016, that simply wouldn't fly. [*4]
> 
> While that may be his opinion, the half of the US that voted for Trump
> did so for many different reasons and likely would not agree.  If Mr 
> D'Aprano has any reliable, factual (in the scientific sense) information
> I hope he'll share it with researchers who I'm sure will be interested.
> In the meantime, such comments do not belong in this list.
> 
> 7. Attacks based on stereotypes are unnecessary and gratuitous: simply
> criticize the person for the perceived offensive behavior directly 
> without using a stereotype as a proxy.
> 
> 8. This group is for discussing Python, not for discussing the 
> characteristics of various national, ethnic, religious, racial, 
> political or other groups.  If one criticizes someone based on such 
> a characterization then obviously the accuracy of the characterization 
> itself becomes open for debate.  Most technical discussion groups 
> don't want discussions to devolve into endless, emotional, unwinnable 
> arguments over the validity of such characterizations, hence the common
> prohibition of them.  
> 
> 
> I hope the above makes clear why your analysis was in fact incorrect 
> and why I stand by my original claim. 
> 
> And sorry for the length, I shortened it as much as I could but you 
> missed a lot.
> 
> ----
> [*1] https://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-list/2017-April/720598.html
> [*2] Obviously I am speaking in the context of discussion on this list. 
>  Certainly there are times and places (such as a African-American dad
>  talking to his wayward son) where such a comment would not be out of
>  place.
> [*3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ugly_American_(pejorative)
> [*4] https://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-list/2017-April/720585.html

Feels like this is something personal against Steven. You should probably take this to court. I'd rather read Steven's insightful answers and rants than you crying. None here is meant to sugar coat anything, and if that is what you are looking for, you don't even belong here


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From: Jack at nichesoftsolutions.com (Jack at nichesoftsolutions.com)
Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2017 06:37:54 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: HOT LIST
Message-ID: <b9a6a01e-a06b-482e-b361-d3c16e805e0b@googlegroups.com>

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From joel.goldstick at gmail.com  Tue Apr 18 09:43:38 2017
From: joel.goldstick at gmail.com (Joel Goldstick)
Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2017 09:43:38 -0400
Subject: Bigotry and hate speech on the python mailing list
In-Reply-To: <CAEqJCe3ysUs05oi5qFO+27=3YYojjdk5ikqpEMt1m7zX8UXNRw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <314147001.1421155.1492382990025.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
 <314147001.1421155.1492382990025@mail.yahoo.com>
 <mailman.234.1492420307.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <87pogahibl.fsf@nightsong.com> <85h91mbrmh.fsf@benfinney.id.au>
 <58F56247.5030905@stoneleaf.us>
 <CAEqJCe3ysUs05oi5qFO+27=3YYojjdk5ikqpEMt1m7zX8UXNRw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPM-O+z4qmQE87WbzoDKaXfbDqXE3dsprGTrthRZhJrZtRZSzQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Apr 18, 2017 at 5:30 AM, James McMahon <jsmcmahon3 at gmail.com> wrote:
> Can the moderators please get involved here and remind people to address
> python related topics and questions on the python mailing list? While I can
> only speak to my interest when joining this list, isn't python why
> most people joined this list? Others have different and polarizing views on
> many subjects. This just isn't the right place to voice your views on
> subjects other than python. I delete this same tired thread every day, and
> every day it reappears. With all manners and due respect, stay on topic.
>
> Isn't this list content moderated by anyone?
>
> -Jim
>

Plus 1 to Jim.  Come on gang! Back to python!  Spaces vs. tabs anyone?



-- 
Joel Goldstick
http://joelgoldstick.com/blog
http://cc-baseballstats.info/stats/birthdays


From best_lay at yahoo.com  Tue Apr 18 09:58:49 2017
From: best_lay at yahoo.com (Wildman)
Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2017 08:58:49 -0500
Subject: Bigotry and hate speech on the python mailing list
References: <314147001.1421155.1492382990025.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
 <314147001.1421155.1492382990025@mail.yahoo.com>
 <mailman.234.1492420307.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <87pogahibl.fsf@nightsong.com> <85h91mbrmh.fsf@benfinney.id.au>
 <mailman.248.1492467823.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <6dCdne4lweQo6mjFnZ2dnUU7-S-dnZ2d@giganews.com>
 <858tmyb6ra.fsf@benfinney.id.au>
 <mailman.257.1492494866.2951.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <c5adnc5SFqoEhmvFnZ2dnUU7-LudnZ2d@giganews.com>

On Tue, 18 Apr 2017 15:54:17 +1000, Ben Finney wrote:

> Wildman via Python-list <python-list at python.org> writes:
> 
>> "The seriousness of the charge mandates that we investigate
>> this. Even though there is no evidence, the seriousness of
>> the charge is what matters."
>>   --Tom Foley (D) Speaker of the House
> 
> That sounds right to me, provided one reads ?there is no evidence? as a
> statement about what evidence is present before anyone goes looking for
> it (?there is no evidence we are yet aware of?).
> 
> In other words: before any evidence exists and before the investigation
> is made, it's a mistake to reach any conclusion about the truth of the
> charge.

Spoken like a true progressive.

-- 
<Wildman> GNU/Linux user #557453
The cow died so I don't need your bull!


From rurpy at yahoo.com  Tue Apr 18 10:01:01 2017
From: rurpy at yahoo.com (Rurpy)
Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2017 14:01:01 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: Bigotry and hate speech on the python mailing list
References: <1671275688.2714711.1492524061267.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <1671275688.2714711.1492524061267@mail.yahoo.com>

On 04/18/2017 07:16 AM, Mario R. Osorio wrote:
> Feels like this is something personal against Steven. You should
> probably take this to court. I'd rather read Steven's insightful
> answers and rants than you crying. None here is meant to sugar coat
> anything, and if that is what you are looking for, you don't even
> belong here

On 04/18/2017 03:30 AM, James McMahon wrote:
> Can the moderators please get involved here and remind people to address
> python related topics and questions on the python mailing list? While I can
> only speak to my interest when joining this list, isn't python why
> most people joined this list? Others have different and polarizing views on
> many subjects. This just isn't the right place to voice your views on
> subjects other than python. I delete this same tired thread every day, and
> every day it reappears. With all manners and due respect, stay on topic.
> 
> Isn't this list content moderated by anyone?

I'll reply to you both jointly to minimize the length of this 
thread which I too find unpleasant.

Whether you like it or not this list has a CoC governing it.
Discussions about appropriate posts ARE on-topic.
If you want a list where anyone can say any vile racist thing
they want, there are plenty of them on the internet, you dont
belong here.
I have nothing personal against Steven.  He called someone out
for being bigoted, then repeated the exact same offense himself.
If you want to shorten this thread then dont post inflammatory
remarks that will perpetuate it.
Please trim your replies and dont top post.


From jorge.conrado at cptec.inpe.br  Tue Apr 18 10:04:25 2017
From: jorge.conrado at cptec.inpe.br (jorge.conrado at cptec.inpe.br)
Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2017 11:04:25 -0300
Subject: PYhton Mercator projection
Message-ID: <9e1cb78145b09aa055dcc8c185801919@cptec.inpe.br>



  Hi,

  I copy the script merc.py from:

  https://matplotlib.org/basemap/users/merc.html


  then I did: python merc.py and I had:


  Segmentation fault


  Please can someone help me.


  Conrado





From jussi.piitulainen at helsinki.fi  Tue Apr 18 10:07:46 2017
From: jussi.piitulainen at helsinki.fi (Jussi Piitulainen)
Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2017 17:07:46 +0300
Subject: Bigotry and hate speech on the python mailing list
References: <314147001.1421155.1492382990025.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
 <314147001.1421155.1492382990025@mail.yahoo.com>
 <mailman.234.1492420307.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <87pogahibl.fsf@nightsong.com> <85h91mbrmh.fsf@benfinney.id.au>
 <58F56247.5030905@stoneleaf.us>
 <CAEqJCe3ysUs05oi5qFO+27=3YYojjdk5ikqpEMt1m7zX8UXNRw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPM-O+z4qmQE87WbzoDKaXfbDqXE3dsprGTrthRZhJrZtRZSzQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.267.1492523029.2951.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <lf5tw5lx0zx.fsf@ling.helsinki.fi>

Joel Goldstick writes:

> On Tue, Apr 18, 2017 at 5:30 AM, James McMahon wrote:
>> Can the moderators please get involved here and remind people to
>> address python related topics and questions on the python mailing
>> list? While I can only speak to my interest when joining this list,
>> isn't python why most people joined this list? Others have different
>> and polarizing views on many subjects. This just isn't the right
>> place to voice your views on subjects other than python. I delete
>> this same tired thread every day, and every day it reappears. With
>> all manners and due respect, stay on topic.
>>
>> Isn't this list content moderated by anyone?
>>
>> -Jim
>>
>
> Plus 1 to Jim.  Come on gang! Back to python!  Spaces vs. tabs anyone?

If there's anything about Python that is less interesting than spaces
vs. tabs, I don't even want to hear what it is.

I agree with Steven that it's a highly offensive thing to say that ASCII
is good enough to "most people".

Python lets me work in UTF-8 *and* has helped me fix rather strange
mixups of legacy encodings. I appreciate that.


From rosuav at gmail.com  Tue Apr 18 10:17:49 2017
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2017 00:17:49 +1000
Subject: Bigotry and hate speech on the python mailing list
In-Reply-To: <lf5tw5lx0zx.fsf@ling.helsinki.fi>
References: <314147001.1421155.1492382990025.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
 <314147001.1421155.1492382990025@mail.yahoo.com>
 <mailman.234.1492420307.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <87pogahibl.fsf@nightsong.com> <85h91mbrmh.fsf@benfinney.id.au>
 <58F56247.5030905@stoneleaf.us>
 <CAEqJCe3ysUs05oi5qFO+27=3YYojjdk5ikqpEMt1m7zX8UXNRw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPM-O+z4qmQE87WbzoDKaXfbDqXE3dsprGTrthRZhJrZtRZSzQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.267.1492523029.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <lf5tw5lx0zx.fsf@ling.helsinki.fi>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmpiUw3dBUWkGtSXRmkySSgfbCE8cTQ22ad3-8tOikMU7w@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Apr 19, 2017 at 12:07 AM, Jussi Piitulainen
<jussi.piitulainen at helsinki.fi> wrote:
> I agree with Steven that it's a highly offensive thing to say that ASCII
> is good enough to "most people".

Interesting that this gets mentioned in a thread on bigotry. You could
quite reasonably argue that supporting only ASCII (or one specific
ISO-8859 encoding) is racist, as it makes your system friendly towards
people like yourself (who speak only your language), but unfriendly
towards people of other cultures, particularly Asian ones.

ChrisA


From rosuav at gmail.com  Tue Apr 18 10:19:10 2017
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2017 00:19:10 +1000
Subject: Bigotry and hate speech on the python mailing list
In-Reply-To: <1671275688.2714711.1492524061267@mail.yahoo.com>
References: <1671275688.2714711.1492524061267.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
 <1671275688.2714711.1492524061267@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmpKHtjJ6bQ2-mYAdyJB8HLKKeW6wmKEr+P+ywJufUbu+Q@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Apr 19, 2017 at 12:01 AM, Rurpy via Python-list
<python-list at python.org> wrote:
> Whether you like it or not this list has a CoC governing it.
> Discussions about appropriate posts ARE on-topic.
> If you want a list where anyone can say any vile racist thing
> they want, there are plenty of them on the internet, you dont
> belong here.
> I have nothing personal against Steven.  He called someone out
> for being bigoted, then repeated the exact same offense himself.

The charge has been examined and dropped. Steven did not violate the
CoC. Please stop talking as if he has. He *was accused of* violating
it, and then found innocent.

ChrisA


From vincent.vande.vyvre at telenet.be  Tue Apr 18 10:28:52 2017
From: vincent.vande.vyvre at telenet.be (Vincent Vande Vyvre)
Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2017 16:28:52 +0200
Subject: PYhton Mercator projection
In-Reply-To: <9e1cb78145b09aa055dcc8c185801919@cptec.inpe.br>
References: <9e1cb78145b09aa055dcc8c185801919@cptec.inpe.br>
Message-ID: <5b8be58b-bed8-246a-4ded-04a0028b49e5@telenet.be>

Le 18/04/17 ? 16:04, jorge.conrado at cptec.inpe.br a ?crit :
>
>
>  Hi,
>
>  I copy the script merc.py from:
>
>  https://matplotlib.org/basemap/users/merc.html
>
>
>  then I did: python merc.py and I had:
>
>
>  Segmentation fault
>
>
>  Please can someone help me.
>
>
>  Conrado
>
>
>
Add some print() to see where the code fail.


Vincent



From rurpy at yahoo.com  Tue Apr 18 11:03:10 2017
From: rurpy at yahoo.com (Rurpy)
Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2017 15:03:10 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: Bigotry and hate speech on the python mailing list
References: <1237806994.2723907.1492527790160.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <1237806994.2723907.1492527790160@mail.yahoo.com>

On 04/18/2017 08:19 AM, Chris Angelico wrote:
> On Wed, Apr 19, 2017 at 12:01 AM, Rurpy via Python-list<python-list at python.org> wrote:
>> I have nothing personal against Steven.  He called someone out
>> for being bigoted, then repeated the exact same offense himself.
> 
> The charge has been examined and dropped. Steven did not violate the
> CoC. Please stop talking as if he has. He *was accused of* violating
> it, and then found innocent.

URL please.  Or is this just a troll?
We're at that point in the thread where the trolls come out
in droves, attracted by the scent of controversy.  Predictable 
as hitting a wasp nest with a stick.


From gbs.deadeye at gmail.com  Tue Apr 18 11:06:01 2017
From: gbs.deadeye at gmail.com (=?UTF-8?Q?Andre_M=c3=bcller?=)
Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2017 17:06:01 +0200
Subject: Bigotry and hate speech on the python mailing list
In-Reply-To: <314147001.1421155.1492382990025@mail.yahoo.com>
References: <314147001.1421155.1492382990025.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
 <314147001.1421155.1492382990025@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <5dffb7a6-57ca-2154-dca0-330faca8d5ea@gmail.com>

Hello list,

Why are you fighting against symptoms?
Just to say: "Hate Speech is not allowed in this list and is bad",
doesn't solve the problem.

Humans from USA should think about it, why the whole world hates them.
Hm, what could be the cause?

You should think about the behavior of your government and your own
reactions.
The hate against people from USA has a cause and you can prove it with
your own history.
But Germany and many other countries are also supporting the USA...

Stopping war against other countries should be the first step to reduce
the hate.
You're fucked up about politics, war and hate? Then just make a new
constitution.


Greetings
Andre M?ller


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From rosuav at gmail.com  Tue Apr 18 11:29:25 2017
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2017 01:29:25 +1000
Subject: Bigotry and hate speech on the python mailing list
In-Reply-To: <1237806994.2723907.1492527790160@mail.yahoo.com>
References: <1237806994.2723907.1492527790160.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
 <1237806994.2723907.1492527790160@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmr+xBouoToG4Q_xZ73k7NYOqUK05q3XDKZS4J5HY21EBA@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Apr 19, 2017 at 1:03 AM, Rurpy via Python-list
<python-list at python.org> wrote:
> On 04/18/2017 08:19 AM, Chris Angelico wrote:
>> On Wed, Apr 19, 2017 at 12:01 AM, Rurpy via Python-list<python-list at python.org> wrote:
>>> I have nothing personal against Steven.  He called someone out
>>> for being bigoted, then repeated the exact same offense himself.
>>
>> The charge has been examined and dropped. Steven did not violate the
>> CoC. Please stop talking as if he has. He *was accused of* violating
>> it, and then found innocent.
>
> URL please.  Or is this just a troll?
> We're at that point in the thread where the trolls come out
> in droves, attracted by the scent of controversy.  Predictable
> as hitting a wasp nest with a stick.

Earlier in this thread. Go read it.

My next step will be plonking you.

Bye.

ChrisA


From steve+python at pearwood.info  Tue Apr 18 11:33:22 2017
From: steve+python at pearwood.info (Steve D'Aprano)
Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2017 01:33:22 +1000
Subject: Static typing [was Re: Python and the need for speed]
References: <768f9a44-5d90-4756-8a99-821253a491f8@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.5.1491710256.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <58e9e519$0$1528$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <mailman.9.1491728745.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <58ec9192$0$1602$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <oci97l$10u4$1@gioia.aioe.org>
 <58eceea2$0$1615$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <CAE6NSRD=xU_mNECNBU2w92Br=vgHJJVqSruGFrPB=vrbpkj0Nw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPjBxg_49OD_CNXUAHKjxYsUiLab4s_fCs_Ast3LyymB82zTCA@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.68.1491956914.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <4277c149-e136-4d33-91d5-d011df9149f1@googlegroups.com>
 <58edcdd2$0$1501$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <fdb4a93a-688e-4a3f-bbc3-0df3ee1d2ac7@googlegroups.com>
 <b003e7c4-4bc4-4478-b793-5f43a4360b55@googlegroups.com>
 <58f2f2b1$0$1599$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <877f2jpnf7.fsf@nightsong.com>
 <58f49e92$0$1590$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <ellnbsFfattU1@mid.individual.net>
Message-ID: <58f631c4$0$1593$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>

On Tue, 18 Apr 2017 03:43 pm, Gregory Ewing wrote:

> Steve D'Aprano wrote:
>> I'm not sure why the Cython devs maintain this is not a JIT compiler.
>> Perhaps I misunderstand something.
> 
> A JIT compiler works by observing the actual values taken on
> by variables at run time, and if it notices that a particular
> variable seems to always have a particular type, it compiles
> a special version of the code to handle that type, protected
> by appropriate guards.

You seem to be describing a *tracing JIT* compiler.

> Cython doesn't do any of that -- it's just a plain, boring,
> standard ahead-of-time compiler that goes by the type info
> you give it and nothing more.

That cannot be the full story, because Cython can optimize some regular,
unannotated Python code.



-- 
Steve
?Cheer up,? they said, ?things could be worse.? So I cheered up, and sure
enough, things got worse.



From steve+python at pearwood.info  Tue Apr 18 11:35:25 2017
From: steve+python at pearwood.info (Steve D'Aprano)
Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2017 01:35:25 +1000
Subject: Moderation and off-topic discussion [was Re: Bigotry and hate
 speech...]
References: <314147001.1421155.1492382990025.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
 <314147001.1421155.1492382990025@mail.yahoo.com>
 <mailman.234.1492420307.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <87pogahibl.fsf@nightsong.com> <85h91mbrmh.fsf@benfinney.id.au>
 <58F56247.5030905@stoneleaf.us>
 <CAEqJCe3ysUs05oi5qFO+27=3YYojjdk5ikqpEMt1m7zX8UXNRw@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.260.1492507826.2951.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <58f6323e$0$1593$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>

On Tue, 18 Apr 2017 07:30 pm, James McMahon wrote:

> Can the moderators please get involved here and remind people to address
> python related topics and questions on the python mailing list? 

This isn't just a mailing list, it is also a newsgroup (Usenet). The
newsgroup is unmoderated, and the mailing list administrators don't
moderate each and every message.

Besides, this forum does have a higher tolerance for off-topic discussions.

(At least collectively -- individuals, of course, vary in their tolerance to
off-topic discussion.)

The best we can do is ask people to change the subject line when the topic
drifts sufficiently far from the original topic, or to use the time-
honoured convention of labelling posts with a tag such as OFF-TOPIC (OT) or
META, POLITICAL, etc so as to allow readers to delete/filter things they
aren't interested in.

But your point is taken. We can have a bit of restraint. Sometimes its hard
to remember that we don't *have* to respond to every comment or statement
we disagree with *wink*

I'm sorry that this thread (and others like it) aren't to your liking. The
other python mailing lists run out of python.org (e.g. Python-Dev, Tutor,
Python-Ideas, etc) are kept much more on topic, but unfortunately they are
also much more specialised.

I know it seems that sometimes these threads will never end, but I've been
here for something like 15 years and they do, eventually, end. And not just
when the participants die of old age *wink*

In the meantime, people can help by posting their own new threads. If you
don't have a question to ask, you could always post an observation. What's
the coolest feature of Python you use? Got some good stories of brilliant
Python code you've seen, or even horror stories of awful code? Just learned
about some amazing feature in Python that you want to share? Go right
ahead! Most of us won't bite!



-- 
Steve
?Cheer up,? they said, ?things could be worse.? So I cheered up, and sure
enough, things got worse.



From best_lay at yahoo.com  Tue Apr 18 11:35:42 2017
From: best_lay at yahoo.com (Wildman)
Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2017 10:35:42 -0500
Subject: Bigotry and hate speech on the python mailing list
References: <782983895.2381420.1492486112644.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
 <782983895.2381420.1492486112644@mail.yahoo.com>
 <mailman.255.1492486116.2951.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <MNydnZhaI__Tr2vFnZ2dnUU7-XOdnZ2d@giganews.com>

On Tue, 18 Apr 2017 03:28:32 +0000, Rurpy wrote:

> On 04/17/2017 08:19 PM, Wildman via Python-list wrote:
>> On Tue, 18 Apr 2017 08:23:34 +1000, Ben Finney wrote:
>>> Paul Rubin <no.email at nospam.invalid> writes:
>>>> Rurpy <rurpy at yahoo.com> writes:
>>>>> A couple weeks ago a frequent poster here (Steve D'Aprano
>>>>> <steve+python at pearwood.info>) called another participant an "ugly
>>>>> american"
>>>>
>>>> Oh stop trolling.
>>>
>>> Paul, that is uncalled for. The charge of bigotry is not to be lightly
>>> dismissed, and we do want to foster an environment here where people
>>> will feel welcome.
>> 
>> Your words remind me of this:
>> 
>> "The seriousness of the charge mandates that we investigate
>> this. Even though there is no evidence, the seriousness of
>> the charge is what matters."
>>   --Tom Foley (D) Speaker of the House
> 
> Amusing, like Bill Clinton's "depends what your definition
> of is is", or Donald Rumsfeld's known unknowns and unknown 
> unknowns.  But yet, isn't investigation what produces evidence?
> Sometimes things that sound silly at first really aren't.

Yes, investigation is what produces evidence but "probable
cause" is needed to begin the investigation.  That means
there has to be something more than just an accusation.

-- 
<Wildman> GNU/Linux user #557453
The cow died so I don't need your bull!


From best_lay at yahoo.com  Tue Apr 18 11:38:57 2017
From: best_lay at yahoo.com (Wildman)
Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2017 10:38:57 -0500
Subject: Bigotry and hate speech on the python mailing list
References: <1671275688.2714711.1492524061267.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
 <1671275688.2714711.1492524061267@mail.yahoo.com>
 <CAPTjJmpKHtjJ6bQ2-mYAdyJB8HLKKeW6wmKEr+P+ywJufUbu+Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.271.1492525154.2951.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <MNydnZtaI_-MrmvFnZ2dnUU7-XOdnZ2d@giganews.com>

On Wed, 19 Apr 2017 00:19:10 +1000, Chris Angelico wrote:

> On Wed, Apr 19, 2017 at 12:01 AM, Rurpy via Python-list
> <python-list at python.org> wrote:
>> Whether you like it or not this list has a CoC governing it.
>> Discussions about appropriate posts ARE on-topic.
>> If you want a list where anyone can say any vile racist thing
>> they want, there are plenty of them on the internet, you dont
>> belong here.
>> I have nothing personal against Steven.  He called someone out
>> for being bigoted, then repeated the exact same offense himself.
> 
> The charge has been examined and dropped. Steven did not violate the
> CoC. Please stop talking as if he has. He *was accused of* violating
> it, and then found innocent.
> 
> ChrisA

You are just confusing the issue with facts. <weg>

-- 
<Wildman> GNU/Linux user #557453
The cow died so I don't need your bull!


From rurpy at yahoo.com  Tue Apr 18 11:53:10 2017
From: rurpy at yahoo.com (Rurpy)
Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2017 15:53:10 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: Bigotry and hate speech on the python mailing list
References: <303217433.2849620.1492530790294.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <303217433.2849620.1492530790294@mail.yahoo.com>

On 04/18/2017 09:29 AM, Chris Angelico wrote:
> On Wed, Apr 19, 2017 at 1:03 AM, Rurpy via Python-list<python-list at python.org> wrote:
>> On 04/18/2017 08:19 AM, Chris Angelico wrote:
>>> On Wed, Apr 19, 2017 at 12:01 AM, Rurpy via Python-list<python-list at python.org> wrote:
>>>> I have nothing personal against Steven.  He called someone out
>>>> for being bigoted, then repeated the exact same offense himself.
>>>
>>> The charge has been examined and dropped. Steven did not violate the
>>> CoC. Please stop talking as if he has. He *was accused of* violating
>>> it, and then found innocent.
>>
>> URL please.  Or is this just a troll?
>> We're at that point in the thread where the trolls come out
>> in droves, attracted by the scent of controversy.  Predictable
>> as hitting a wasp nest with a stick.
> 
> Earlier in this thread. Go read it.

I've already read every post in this thread since I joined it and nowhere 
has there been anything remotely like your claim.  Again: URL please.

> My next step will be plonking you.

I recommend that.


From steve+python at pearwood.info  Tue Apr 18 12:36:32 2017
From: steve+python at pearwood.info (Steve D'Aprano)
Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2017 02:36:32 +1000
Subject: Pressing dot and show sub command in IPython
References: <412528245.3872897.1492521279734.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
 <412528245.3872897.1492521279734@mail.yahoo.com>
 <mailman.266.1492521421.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <51d0aebc-945e-4f6a-9dcc-c34a9675edc5@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <58f64091$0$1597$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>

On Wed, 19 Apr 2017 12:37 am, breamoreboy at gmail.com wrote:

> On Tuesday, April 18, 2017 at 2:17:12 PM UTC+1, David Shi wrote:
>> Hi, Matt,
>> How to make IPython work more interactively?
>> As I remember, pressing dot and sub command shows up suggestively in
>> IPython. But, now, after re-installing IPython notebook, it does not do
>> so any more. Looking forward to hearing from you.
>> Regards.
>> David
> 
> Hi Matt, can you please show David how to use a search engine.  Thanks in
> anticipation.

Matt isn't here right now. Mark, why don't you use a search engine to help
solve the problem? Then you'll win brownie points for being helpful and
friendly instead of unhelpful and hostile.


David, you could try reading some of these:

https://www.google.com.au/search?q=ipython+dot+completion+not+working

https://duckduckgo.com/?q=ipython+tab+completion+not+working

If you still need help, you will need to explain the problem in a lot more
detail.



-- 
Steve
?Cheer up,? they said, ?things could be worse.? So I cheered up, and sure
enough, things got worse.



From rgaddi at highlandtechnology.invalid  Tue Apr 18 12:54:13 2017
From: rgaddi at highlandtechnology.invalid (Rob Gaddi)
Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2017 09:54:13 -0700
Subject: HOT LIST
In-Reply-To: <b9a6a01e-a06b-482e-b361-d3c16e805e0b@googlegroups.com>
References: <b9a6a01e-a06b-482e-b361-d3c16e805e0b@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <od5g5q$4lv$1@dont-email.me>

On 04/18/2017 06:37 AM, Jack at nichesoftsolutions.com wrote:
> Hi
> Hope you doing great!
> Greeting from Niche Soft Solutions.
>
> I would like to present our topnotch consultants currently available.
> Please have a look at the below hot list of Niche Soft Solutions and mail your Direct Client requirements to jack at nichesoftsolutions.com
>
> Please add my Email ID to your mailing list and send the requirements on daily basis
> You can reach me at 503-536-2043
>
[snip utter garbage]
>
>
> Regards
>  Jack
> Email ID: jack at nichesoftsolutions.com
> Phone NO:5035362043
>

Jack --

Thank you for including comp.lang.python on your list of places to send 
unsolicited job offers entirely unrelated to Python.  As it turns out, 
my company does frequently hire consultants in technical areas.  By your 
repeated demonstration of a complete lack of ability to match the 
posting to the position and a "HOT LIST" consisting a) of mostly just 
random words such as OPEN and 7+ and b) repetition of same over and 
over, you have clearly demonstrated that your company, Niche Soft 
Solutions, is fundamentally incompetent and should never be employed in 
the hiring of personnel.

I look forward to a long and prosperous relationship of not doing 
business with your demonstrably useless organization, and wish you all 
the best luck in falling down a flight of stairs.

-- 
Rob Gaddi, Highland Technology -- www.highlandtechnology.com
Email address domain is currently out of order.  See above to fix.


From steve+python at pearwood.info  Tue Apr 18 12:54:49 2017
From: steve+python at pearwood.info (Steve D'Aprano)
Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2017 02:54:49 +1000
Subject: OFFTOPIC Secularism [was Re: Bigotry and hate speech on the python
 mailing list]
References: <314147001.1421155.1492382990025.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
 <314147001.1421155.1492382990025@mail.yahoo.com>
 <mailman.234.1492420307.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <87pogahibl.fsf@nightsong.com> <85h91mbrmh.fsf@benfinney.id.au>
 <58F56247.5030905@stoneleaf.us>
 <mailman.249.1492476476.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <b0a09c71-8f4e-4c1d-a748-6c8faf0ebfcf@googlegroups.com>
 <87a87egun2.fsf@elektro.pacujo.net>
Message-ID: <58f644db$0$1608$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>

On Tue, 18 Apr 2017 03:19 pm, Marko Rauhamaa wrote:

> Rustom Mody <rustompmody at gmail.com>:
> 
>> On Tuesday, April 18, 2017 at 6:18:06 AM UTC+5:30, Ethan Furman wrote:
>>> You mean all the non-religious people?
>>> 
>>> Because some of your signatures don't feel welcoming to people of
>>> faith:
>>
>> Thanks Ethan for bullseyeing the problem to the leftie-libbie lie
>> called 'secularism'
> 
> (You must be trolling, Rustom, but...)
> 
> Expressing one's (secular) faith is not bigotry, hate-speech or
> harassment. It is questionable whether such expressions have a place in
> a technology newsgroup, but the practice is as old as Usenet itself.

Secularism is not a faith-based philosophy, at least not if you are doing it
right. Nor is secularism necessarily opposed to religion.

I'm not sure what Rustom thinks is a "lie" about secularism, or why he
thinks that it is "leftie-libbie" (a left-handed woman called Elizabeth?),
or for that matter why he thinks secularism belongs to a single political
philosophy.

Opponents of secularism have included atheists like the fascist Mussolini
and the communist Stalin, as well as religious fanatics who want their
religion to have all the political power.

On the other hand, supporters of secular society have included:

- deists like Thomas Jefferson and other signers of 
  the American Declaration of Independence;

- theists like Thomas Hobbes and John Locke;

- pacifists like Bertrand Russell;

- aggressively anti-religious atheists like Richard Dawkins;

- accommodationist left-leaning agnostics like Stephen J Gould;

- right-leaning militant "new atheists" like Sam Harris;

- radical left-wingers like Peter Singer;

- AltRight white nationalists like Richard Spencer;

to say nothing of the many religious people around the world (whether they
are Christian, Muslim, Hindu, Buddhist, Jewish or something else) who
believe that religion is a fine thing in the church and perhaps even the
home but that education, government and the law should be secular.

So there's a pretty wide-spread support for secular society, from people of
many races, colours, creeds, religions and even no religion at all.

Please pardon my unfortunate focus on Western individuals; there are many
equally secular people outside the West, such as the original drafters of
the Bangladesh Constitution (including Kamal Hossain), but I'm less
familiar with them.



-- 
Steve
?Cheer up,? they said, ?things could be worse.? So I cheered up, and sure
enough, things got worse.



From marko at pacujo.net  Tue Apr 18 12:56:11 2017
From: marko at pacujo.net (Marko Rauhamaa)
Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2017 19:56:11 +0300
Subject: Bigotry and hate speech on the python mailing list
References: <314147001.1421155.1492382990025.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
 <314147001.1421155.1492382990025@mail.yahoo.com>
 <5dffb7a6-57ca-2154-dca0-330faca8d5ea@gmail.com>
 <mailman.274.1492527969.2951.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <87pog9vems.fsf@elektro.pacujo.net>

Andre M?ller <gbs.deadeye at gmail.com>:

> Humans from USA should think about it, why the whole world hates them.

I have yet to meet somebody who hates Americans.

> Hm, what could be the cause?

Hating an ethnicity has no justifiable cause.


Marko


From rurpy at yahoo.com  Tue Apr 18 13:04:52 2017
From: rurpy at yahoo.com (Rurpy)
Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2017 17:04:52 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: Bigotry and hate speech on the python mailing list
References: <556627392.2898452.1492535092578.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <556627392.2898452.1492535092578@mail.yahoo.com>

On 04/18/2017 09:35 AM, Wildman via Python-list wrote:
> On Tue, 18 Apr 2017 03:28:32 +0000, Rurpy wrote:
>> On 04/17/2017 08:19 PM, Wildman via Python-list wrote:
>>> [...]
>>> Your words remind me of this:
>>>
>>> "The seriousness of the charge mandates that we investigate
>>> this. Even though there is no evidence, the seriousness of
>>> the charge is what matters."
>>>   --Tom Foley (D) Speaker of the House
>>
>> Amusing, like Bill Clinton's "depends what your definition
>> of is is", or Donald Rumsfeld's known unknowns and unknown 
>> unknowns.  But yet, isn't investigation what produces evidence?
>> Sometimes things that sound silly at first really aren't.
> 
> Yes, investigation is what produces evidence but "probable
> cause" is needed to begin the investigation.  That means
> there has to be something more than just an accusation.

Your "quote" comes from a joint statement by Tom Foley (D House)
and George Mitchell (D Senate) made in 1991 that actually was: 

 These allegations are both persist and disturbing.  We have
 no *conclusive* evidence of wrongdoing, but the seriousness
 of the allegations, and the *weight of circumstantial information*,
 compel an effort to establish the facts." [*]

To get back to topic, it is interesting how the internet morphs
the quote to match our stereotype of stupid politicians and then
how willing we are to believe it.

----
[*] http://www.nytimes.com/1991/08/06/us/inquiry-is-ordered-on-1980-campaign.html



From rgaddi at highlandtechnology.invalid  Tue Apr 18 13:09:41 2017
From: rgaddi at highlandtechnology.invalid (Rob Gaddi)
Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2017 10:09:41 -0700
Subject: Buffers and pointers (Py3.4)
In-Reply-To: <mailman.240.1492454851.2951.python-list@python.org>
References: <od2vid$mp1$1@dont-email.me>
 <CAPTjJmpdgCdVGAToYTcAjxppr7hArCEvh_0vVPJvv_=5aAiUqw@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.240.1492454851.2951.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <od5h2r$82t$1@dont-email.me>

On 04/17/2017 11:47 AM, Chris Angelico wrote:
> On Tue, Apr 18, 2017 at 3:58 AM, Rob Gaddi
> <rgaddi at highlandtechnology.invalid> wrote:
>> If I were writing this as a C extension, getting that information from any
>> buffer object would be trivial, but that changes my project from a pure
>> Python wrapper using ctypes to a mixed language project with compile
>> dependencies and mental headaches.
>>
>>   buffertype = c_uint8 * size
>>   return addressof(buffertype.from_buffer(buf, offset))
>>
>> works but is inefficient and woefully inelegant.
>
> Have you considered Cython? It can massively simplify a lot of the
> work in doing this kind of thing.
>
> ChrisA
>

I did, and it definitely seems easier than grunting it up from pure C, 
but it still adds a compile step and extra tools, and I found the 
documentation on working with arbitrary memory to be lacking.  I know C, 
I know Python, I'm definitely unclear as to how to use Cython to split 
the difference.  Somewhere I've got the book and really need to get 
around to reading it.

I actually got to an implementation that isn't awful.  Creating new 
objects that represent each DMA transfer (and wrap a Structure to be 
passed to the library) takes about 9 us per object, including a call to:

   def setbuffer(self, buf, start=0, end=None):
     """Set the local memory.

     Parameters
        buf - The local memory, an object implementing the buffer
              protocol such as a numpy.ndarray or a bytearray.  Can
              be None, which invalidates the transfer.

        start - The index of the first buffer element to transfer.
                Defaults to 0.

        end - The index of the last buffer element to transfer.  Defaults
              to None for len(buf).
     """

     if buf is None:
       self._localmem = None
       self._desc.ptr = 0
       return

     basemv = memoryview(buf)
     mv = basemv[start:end]

     if not mv.contiguous:
       raise ValueError("noncontiguous buffer")
     self._localmem = mv
     self._desc.size = mv.nbytes
     self._desc.ptr = addressof(c_uint8.from_buffer(mv))

This could obviously be made faster by dropping some of the safety 
checks and flexibility, but I feel like the speed hit is worth not 
getting segfaults down the line because someone gets the clever idea to 
stride the array.  Plus the objects can be persistent, just calling 
setbuffer to update for the new destination, which takes a lot of that 
time back off.

-- 
Rob Gaddi, Highland Technology -- www.highlandtechnology.com
Email address domain is currently out of order.  See above to fix.


From rosuav at gmail.com  Tue Apr 18 13:45:33 2017
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2017 03:45:33 +1000
Subject: Moderation and off-topic discussion [was Re: Bigotry and hate
 speech...]
In-Reply-To: <58f6323e$0$1593$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
References: <314147001.1421155.1492382990025.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
 <314147001.1421155.1492382990025@mail.yahoo.com>
 <mailman.234.1492420307.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <87pogahibl.fsf@nightsong.com> <85h91mbrmh.fsf@benfinney.id.au>
 <58F56247.5030905@stoneleaf.us>
 <CAEqJCe3ysUs05oi5qFO+27=3YYojjdk5ikqpEMt1m7zX8UXNRw@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.260.1492507826.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <58f6323e$0$1593$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmqebHFGXTP6ENC8tSTVTs1cOOZRTQy1mJ3hSKCf-K96og@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Apr 19, 2017 at 1:35 AM, Steve D'Aprano
<steve+python at pearwood.info> wrote:
> In the meantime, people can help by posting their own new threads. If you
> don't have a question to ask, you could always post an observation. What's
> the coolest feature of Python you use? Got some good stories of brilliant
> Python code you've seen, or even horror stories of awful code? Just learned
> about some amazing feature in Python that you want to share? Go right
> ahead! Most of us won't bite!

Ten weird features of Python - you won't believe #8!

Clickbaitily yours,

ChrisA


From tim at akwebsoft.com  Tue Apr 18 14:28:44 2017
From: tim at akwebsoft.com (Tim Johnson)
Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2017 10:28:44 -0800
Subject: Import name conflicts
Message-ID: <20170418182844.GB12882@mail.akwebsoft.com>

Using python 2.7~

For testing and edification purposes:

I have a project which has a controllers package at the directory
level just below the root.

>From the top-level (root) of the project, I start my python
interpreter.

The packages is called 'controllers' and has a submodule named 'imp'

I do the following:
>>> a = __import__('imp')
>>> dir(a)
['C_BUILTIN', 'C_EXTENSION', 'IMP_HOOK', 'NullImporter',
'PKG_DIRECTORY', ....]
# object a is the builtin imp module

Now I do 
>>> b = __import__('controllers.imp', fromlist=['controllers'])
>>> dir(b)
['COLORS', 'CONTROLLER', 'DBNAME', 'DBPWD', 'DBUSERNAME', 'ID_COL',
'JOB', 'MYTABLE', 'RECID', 'TABLEFORMAT', ...]

# object b is the imp module in the controllers package.
# I've resolved a potential name collision ...

Now, suppose a python upgrade provides a package called controllers
or there's some great third-party package available called
controllers. 

How do I access the 'global' controllers package?

thanks

-- 
Tim 
http://www.akwebsoft.com, http://www.tj49.com


From ben+python at benfinney.id.au  Tue Apr 18 18:28:59 2017
From: ben+python at benfinney.id.au (Ben Finney)
Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2017 08:28:59 +1000
Subject: Bigotry and hate speech on the python mailing list
References: <1671275688.2714711.1492524061267.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
 <1671275688.2714711.1492524061267@mail.yahoo.com>
 <CAPTjJmpKHtjJ6bQ2-mYAdyJB8HLKKeW6wmKEr+P+ywJufUbu+Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <854lxlbb9w.fsf@benfinney.id.au>

Chris Angelico <rosuav at gmail.com> writes:

> The charge has been examined and dropped. Steven did not violate the
> CoC. Please stop talking as if he has. He *was accused of* violating
> it, and then found innocent.

Which post are you referring to (can you provide a URL)? I'd like to see
who came to that conclusion, what their wording was, and what their
authority was to do so.

-- 
 \        ?I have a microwave fireplace in my house. The other night I |
  `\   laid down in front of the fire for the evening in two minutes.? |
_o__)                                                   ?Steven Wright |
Ben Finney



From python at lucidity.plus.com  Tue Apr 18 18:33:04 2017
From: python at lucidity.plus.com (Erik)
Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2017 23:33:04 +0100
Subject: Python and the need for speed
In-Reply-To: <bVlJA.908395$w46.615568@fx39.am4>
References: <768f9a44-5d90-4756-8a99-821253a491f8@googlegroups.com>
 <58eceea2$0$1615$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <CAE6NSRD=xU_mNECNBU2w92Br=vgHJJVqSruGFrPB=vrbpkj0Nw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPjBxg_49OD_CNXUAHKjxYsUiLab4s_fCs_Ast3LyymB82zTCA@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.68.1491956914.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <4277c149-e136-4d33-91d5-d011df9149f1@googlegroups.com>
 <58edcdd2$0$1501$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <fdb4a93a-688e-4a3f-bbc3-0df3ee1d2ac7@googlegroups.com>
 <54f1685d-1d2d-44b5-869e-a510569ba9d1@googlegroups.com>
 <lf5a87ln8k9.fsf@ling.helsinki.fi>
 <1d352948-9029-4b86-b2f1-2b52608109ea@googlegroups.com>
 <el7qd0Fpai9U1@mid.individual.net>
 <2759e6e0-ad95-466c-81f6-556133620999@googlegroups.com>
 <58ef31ee$0$1501$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <6f8fc379-51f1-897d-f099-ebcee2be68fa@mrabarnett.plus.com>
 <bbf096e5-34a7-7a2c-8f37-3c6c3428c3b1@lucidity.plus.com>
 <mailman.261.1492507975.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <bVlJA.908395$w46.615568@fx39.am4>
Message-ID: <7098a167-845d-0319-4d6a-5bb0f79f8059@lucidity.plus.com>

On 18/04/17 11:30, bartc wrote:
> On 18/04/2017 10:32, Erik wrote:
>
>> the
>> improvements over the original huge switch() to dispatch the bytecodes
>> to the correct handler appear to have made this type of optimization
>> less effective.
>
> What did they do to it, and on which version?

It's the computed 'goto' stuff that I'm referring to. At the time, I was 
looking at 2.7.9 (which just has the big switch) and 3.5.0 (which has 
the computed gotos). I can't be any more specific than that without 
looking at commit histories - you can do that if you want ;).

I am running on Linux using GCC, so I am using the computed-goto version 
(I hadn't realised at the time that it was optional - so perhaps my 
changes _would_ still have shown an improvement on builds that still use 
the big switch ... I'll have to look again when I have time).

The opcodes have changed from bytecode to wordcode since then, so my 
changes would need looking at again anyway.

> (I couldn't get anywhere with CPython because:

[snip]

It obviously builds on Windows (isn't there a MSVC project?), but FWIW, 
on Linux things do get a bit hairy when you want to introduce new 
opcodes, for example (IIRC, the build process itself uses a version of 
Python that it builds to generate some "frozen" .py files for the final 
build and that can cause things to get out of step where the 
build-process executable doesn't understand the new opcodes - I forget 
the details, but it's something like that. I think the answer was to 
keep "clean"ing the build area and building from scratch each time the 
opcode map changes).

Perhaps the Windows build process requires that things are stable and 
doesn't support this type of development at all. You should take this 
part of the discussion to python-dev if you want to be able to build and 
experiment with it on Windows.

> If that had worked, then further optimisations are possible, such as
> doing a pre-pass combining common operations, that would not be
> worthwhile using 'official' byte-codes.)

That is effectively what my experiments were doing - sort of -, but 
without introducing an assembler layer. I'm not convinced about that - 
given the right hints, a half-decent C compiler these days will produce 
pretty good code.

E.


From rosuav at gmail.com  Tue Apr 18 18:34:03 2017
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2017 08:34:03 +1000
Subject: Bigotry and hate speech on the python mailing list
In-Reply-To: <854lxlbb9w.fsf@benfinney.id.au>
References: <1671275688.2714711.1492524061267.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
 <1671275688.2714711.1492524061267@mail.yahoo.com>
 <CAPTjJmpKHtjJ6bQ2-mYAdyJB8HLKKeW6wmKEr+P+ywJufUbu+Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <854lxlbb9w.fsf@benfinney.id.au>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmrT6YG1vwWE4swv_zaWAmOGnCR6d2hG2JUkFgD1YCEMcQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Apr 19, 2017 at 8:28 AM, Ben Finney <ben+python at benfinney.id.au> wrote:
> Chris Angelico <rosuav at gmail.com> writes:
>
>> The charge has been examined and dropped. Steven did not violate the
>> CoC. Please stop talking as if he has. He *was accused of* violating
>> it, and then found innocent.
>
> Which post are you referring to (can you provide a URL)? I'd like to see
> who came to that conclusion, what their wording was, and what their
> authority was to do so.

I was referring to your post, in which a fairly solid argument was
made for there being no guilt. Maybe you don't have any specific
authority, but until someone actually acts in a moderatorial role,
solid arguments are plenty authoritative enough for most of us.
Particularly for the newsgroup people, where there is no central
authority at all.

ChrisA


From ben+python at benfinney.id.au  Tue Apr 18 18:45:50 2017
From: ben+python at benfinney.id.au (Ben Finney)
Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2017 08:45:50 +1000
Subject: Import name conflicts
References: <20170418182844.GB12882@mail.akwebsoft.com>
Message-ID: <85zifd9vxd.fsf@benfinney.id.au>

Tim Johnson <tim at akwebsoft.com> writes:

> Using python 2.7~

In Python 2, you should turn on the ?default import is absolute? by
issuing the statement::

    from __future__ import absolute_import

as one of the first statements in each module.

When you migrate your code to PYthon 3, that will be the default
behaviour.

> The packages is called 'controllers' and has a submodule named 'imp'

To avoid the module named ?imp? in the standard library, your code
should import ?imp? using a relative import. See PEP 328
<URL:https://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0328/#rationale-for-relative-imports>.

So, you'd do::

    from . import imp

to import the ?imp? module relative to the current package.

> I do the following:
> >>> a = __import__('imp')

It is best to avoid calling dunder functions directly; they are
available for overriding the internals of language features, and
*invoking* one is best done by just using the corresponding language
feature.

Instead, use either the ?import? statement, or the ?importlib? standard
library module <URL:https://docs.python.org/2/library/importlib.html>,
specifically the ?importlib.import_module? function::

    import importlib

    a = importlib.import_module('.imp')

> Now, suppose a python upgrade provides a package called controllers or
> there's some great third-party package available called controllers.

You don't even have to imagine that far: there is already a standard
library module named ?imp?, so you already have that problem to contend
with :-)

That is the distinction that led to ?absolute? import versus ?relative?
import.

> How do I access the 'global' controllers package?

* Enable ?default import is absolute?, as described above.

* Issue a normal import statement: the absolute import search path will
  be used.

I hope that helps.

-- 
 \      ?[I]t is impossible for anyone to begin to learn that which he |
  `\                thinks he already knows.? ?Epictetus, _Discourses_ |
_o__)                                                                  |
Ben Finney



From ben+python at benfinney.id.au  Tue Apr 18 18:47:41 2017
From: ben+python at benfinney.id.au (Ben Finney)
Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2017 08:47:41 +1000
Subject: Bigotry and hate speech on the python mailing list
References: <1671275688.2714711.1492524061267.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
 <1671275688.2714711.1492524061267@mail.yahoo.com>
 <CAPTjJmpKHtjJ6bQ2-mYAdyJB8HLKKeW6wmKEr+P+ywJufUbu+Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <854lxlbb9w.fsf@benfinney.id.au>
 <CAPTjJmrT6YG1vwWE4swv_zaWAmOGnCR6d2hG2JUkFgD1YCEMcQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <85vaq19vua.fsf@benfinney.id.au>

Chris Angelico <rosuav at gmail.com> writes:

> I was referring to your post, in which a fairly solid argument was
> made for there being no guilt. Maybe you don't have any specific
> authority

I definitely don't, and I hope no one reads my words on this topic as
having special authority beyond their content :-)

> but until someone actually acts in a moderatorial role,
> solid arguments are plenty authoritative enough for most of us.

That's my hope. Thanks for saying so.

-- 
 \     ?Sittin' on the fence, that's a dangerous course / You can even |
  `\       catch a bullet from the peace-keeping force? ?Dire Straits, |
_o__)                                   _Once Upon A Time In The West_ |
Ben Finney



From rosuav at gmail.com  Tue Apr 18 18:53:40 2017
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2017 08:53:40 +1000
Subject: Bigotry and hate speech on the python mailing list
In-Reply-To: <85vaq19vua.fsf@benfinney.id.au>
References: <1671275688.2714711.1492524061267.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
 <1671275688.2714711.1492524061267@mail.yahoo.com>
 <CAPTjJmpKHtjJ6bQ2-mYAdyJB8HLKKeW6wmKEr+P+ywJufUbu+Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <854lxlbb9w.fsf@benfinney.id.au>
 <CAPTjJmrT6YG1vwWE4swv_zaWAmOGnCR6d2hG2JUkFgD1YCEMcQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <85vaq19vua.fsf@benfinney.id.au>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmq0wOpX02K07+AE178_Ovr78ypfxqVQhuP2hNFrBQZznQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Apr 19, 2017 at 8:47 AM, Ben Finney <ben+python at benfinney.id.au> wrote:
> Chris Angelico <rosuav at gmail.com> writes:
>
>> I was referring to your post, in which a fairly solid argument was
>> made for there being no guilt. Maybe you don't have any specific
>> authority
>
> I definitely don't, and I hope no one reads my words on this topic as
> having special authority beyond their content :-)
>
>> but until someone actually acts in a moderatorial role,
>> solid arguments are plenty authoritative enough for most of us.
>
> That's my hope. Thanks for saying so.

Yep. The "maybe" in there wasn't a statement of uncertainty, but more
of "Yeah, you don't have actual authority - so be it". Or if you
prefer: "So what if you don't have etc etc".

ChrisA


From greg.ewing at canterbury.ac.nz  Tue Apr 18 19:02:02 2017
From: greg.ewing at canterbury.ac.nz (Gregory Ewing)
Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2017 11:02:02 +1200
Subject: Looping [was Re: Python and the need for speed]
In-Reply-To: <87efwqoqtz.fsf@bsb.me.uk>
References: <768f9a44-5d90-4756-8a99-821253a491f8@googlegroups.com>	<CAE6NSRD=xU_mNECNBU2w92Br=vgHJJVqSruGFrPB=vrbpkj0Nw@mail.gmail.com>	<CAPjBxg_49OD_CNXUAHKjxYsUiLab4s_fCs_Ast3LyymB82zTCA@mail.gmail.com>	<mailman.68.1491956914.2951.python-list@python.org>	<4277c149-e136-4d33-91d5-d011df9149f1@googlegroups.com>	<58edcdd2$0$1501$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>	<fdb4a93a-688e-4a3f-bbc3-0df3ee1d2ac7@googlegroups.com>	<54f1685d-1d2d-44b5-869e-a510569ba9d1@googlegroups.com>	<lf5a87ln8k9.fsf@ling.helsinki.fi>	<1d352948-9029-4b86-b2f1-2b52608109ea@googlegroups.com>	<616ebaec-f140-491c-897e-f2c4b8368d28@googlegroups.com>	<IboIA.298355$0L.88195@fx12.am4>	<58f2dc43$0$1583$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>	<_6JIA.1041096$Pm3.778529@fx42.am4>
 <elid5kFqh32U1@mid.individual.net>	<87shl7mrtf.fsf@elektro.pacujo.net>
 <od2eib$eno$2@blaine.gmane.org>	<mailman.237.1492434618.2951.python-list@python.org>	<87k26jvvpn.fsf@elektro.pacujo.net>
 <87efwqoqtz.fsf@bsb.me.uk>
Message-ID: <elnk7cFr8b4U1@mid.individual.net>

Ben Bacarisse wrote:

> I fond the proportion on while True: loops surprising.  Is there
> something about Python that encourages that kind of loop?

Maybe because for-loops take care of most of the ordinary
cases in Python, leaving while-loops to cover the weird
ones, many of which need one or more exits in the middle
somewhere.

-- 
Greg


From greg.ewing at canterbury.ac.nz  Tue Apr 18 19:08:31 2017
From: greg.ewing at canterbury.ac.nz (Gregory Ewing)
Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2017 11:08:31 +1200
Subject: Python and the need for speed
In-Reply-To: <mailman.261.1492507975.2951.python-list@python.org>
References: <768f9a44-5d90-4756-8a99-821253a491f8@googlegroups.com>
 <oci97l$10u4$1@gioia.aioe.org>
 <58eceea2$0$1615$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <CAE6NSRD=xU_mNECNBU2w92Br=vgHJJVqSruGFrPB=vrbpkj0Nw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPjBxg_49OD_CNXUAHKjxYsUiLab4s_fCs_Ast3LyymB82zTCA@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.68.1491956914.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <4277c149-e136-4d33-91d5-d011df9149f1@googlegroups.com>
 <58edcdd2$0$1501$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <fdb4a93a-688e-4a3f-bbc3-0df3ee1d2ac7@googlegroups.com>
 <54f1685d-1d2d-44b5-869e-a510569ba9d1@googlegroups.com>
 <lf5a87ln8k9.fsf@ling.helsinki.fi>
 <1d352948-9029-4b86-b2f1-2b52608109ea@googlegroups.com>
 <el7qd0Fpai9U1@mid.individual.net>
 <2759e6e0-ad95-466c-81f6-556133620999@googlegroups.com>
 <58ef31ee$0$1501$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <6f8fc379-51f1-897d-f099-ebcee2be68fa@mrabarnett.plus.com>
 <bbf096e5-34a7-7a2c-8f37-3c6c3428c3b1@lucidity.plus.com>
 <mailman.261.1492507975.2951.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <elnkjhFra7cU1@mid.individual.net>

Erik wrote:
> When considering special-casing this opcode sequence, remember that 
> in-place operations can be performed on anonymous objects (i.e., those 
> referenced by a collection and not bound directly to a namespace):

I think this means you would want multiple versions of the +=1 opcode:
ADD_ONE_TO_NAME, ADD_ONE_TO_ITEM, ADD_ONE_TO_ATTR, etc. Essentially
one for each variant of the STORE operation.

Or you might choose to optimise just the local name case, on the
basis that the overhead of things like item and attribute lookup
would probably swamp any possible gains.

-- 
Greg


From bc at freeuk.com  Tue Apr 18 19:18:42 2017
From: bc at freeuk.com (bartc)
Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2017 00:18:42 +0100
Subject: Python and the need for speed
In-Reply-To: <elnkjhFra7cU1@mid.individual.net>
References: <768f9a44-5d90-4756-8a99-821253a491f8@googlegroups.com>
 <58eceea2$0$1615$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <CAE6NSRD=xU_mNECNBU2w92Br=vgHJJVqSruGFrPB=vrbpkj0Nw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPjBxg_49OD_CNXUAHKjxYsUiLab4s_fCs_Ast3LyymB82zTCA@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.68.1491956914.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <4277c149-e136-4d33-91d5-d011df9149f1@googlegroups.com>
 <58edcdd2$0$1501$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <fdb4a93a-688e-4a3f-bbc3-0df3ee1d2ac7@googlegroups.com>
 <54f1685d-1d2d-44b5-869e-a510569ba9d1@googlegroups.com>
 <lf5a87ln8k9.fsf@ling.helsinki.fi>
 <1d352948-9029-4b86-b2f1-2b52608109ea@googlegroups.com>
 <el7qd0Fpai9U1@mid.individual.net>
 <2759e6e0-ad95-466c-81f6-556133620999@googlegroups.com>
 <58ef31ee$0$1501$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <6f8fc379-51f1-897d-f099-ebcee2be68fa@mrabarnett.plus.com>
 <bbf096e5-34a7-7a2c-8f37-3c6c3428c3b1@lucidity.plus.com>
 <mailman.261.1492507975.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <elnkjhFra7cU1@mid.individual.net>
Message-ID: <m9xJA.1160061$vF2.512211@fx46.am4>

On 19/04/2017 00:08, Gregory Ewing wrote:
> Erik wrote:
>> When considering special-casing this opcode sequence, remember that
>> in-place operations can be performed on anonymous objects (i.e., those
>> referenced by a collection and not bound directly to a namespace):
>
> I think this means you would want multiple versions of the +=1 opcode:
> ADD_ONE_TO_NAME, ADD_ONE_TO_ITEM, ADD_ONE_TO_ATTR, etc. Essentially
> one for each variant of the STORE operation.

This where it starts to get out of hand, if using a fixed set of byte-codes.

I suggested earlier in the thread using special references, which can be 
created for each kind of access (GLOBAL, FAST, INDEX etc). But then you 
have one REF type and only need ADD_ONE_TO_REF.

> Or you might choose to optimise just the local name case, on the
> basis that the overhead of things like item and attribute lookup
> would probably swamp any possible gains.

But you would reduce two lookups to one, so the gains might be greater 
with those more elaborate accesses.

-- 
bartc


From greg.ewing at canterbury.ac.nz  Tue Apr 18 19:19:21 2017
From: greg.ewing at canterbury.ac.nz (Gregory Ewing)
Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2017 11:19:21 +1200
Subject: Python and the need for speed
In-Reply-To: <bVlJA.908395$w46.615568@fx39.am4>
References: <768f9a44-5d90-4756-8a99-821253a491f8@googlegroups.com>
 <58eceea2$0$1615$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <CAE6NSRD=xU_mNECNBU2w92Br=vgHJJVqSruGFrPB=vrbpkj0Nw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPjBxg_49OD_CNXUAHKjxYsUiLab4s_fCs_Ast3LyymB82zTCA@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.68.1491956914.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <4277c149-e136-4d33-91d5-d011df9149f1@googlegroups.com>
 <58edcdd2$0$1501$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <fdb4a93a-688e-4a3f-bbc3-0df3ee1d2ac7@googlegroups.com>
 <54f1685d-1d2d-44b5-869e-a510569ba9d1@googlegroups.com>
 <lf5a87ln8k9.fsf@ling.helsinki.fi>
 <1d352948-9029-4b86-b2f1-2b52608109ea@googlegroups.com>
 <el7qd0Fpai9U1@mid.individual.net>
 <2759e6e0-ad95-466c-81f6-556133620999@googlegroups.com>
 <58ef31ee$0$1501$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <6f8fc379-51f1-897d-f099-ebcee2be68fa@mrabarnett.plus.com>
 <bbf096e5-34a7-7a2c-8f37-3c6c3428c3b1@lucidity.plus.com>
 <mailman.261.1492507975.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <bVlJA.908395$w46.615568@fx39.am4>
Message-ID: <elnl7rFrdhqU1@mid.individual.net>

bartc wrote:
> But another problem was, there /are/ no simple byte-codes in CPython!

Yes, that's the crux of the whole thing. It's the reason it's
so hard to compile Python to anything that runs significantly
faster than interpreted code.

> Another optimisation for something 
> like ADD, was to to check for very common types such as INT, and deal 
> with those locally.

And then you're on the path to writing a JIT compiler. If you
can identify such cases, you might as well generate machine
code for them.

-- 
Greg


From akomack100 at gmail.com  Tue Apr 18 19:26:47 2017
From: akomack100 at gmail.com (akomack100 at gmail.com)
Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2017 16:26:47 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Decode email subjects into unicode
In-Reply-To: <mailman.2134.1205922357.9267.python-list@python.org>
References: <47DF8EED.1010501@shopzeus.com>
 <mailman.2100.1205835956.9267.python-list@python.org>
 <6gl1u3d3vei5tff9t6ivuhl7gf2qfg6p0k@4ax.com>
 <mailman.2134.1205922357.9267.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <56eb5f01-6173-470d-a5ed-d73e5e540ef5@googlegroups.com>

On Wednesday, March 19, 2008 at 3:24:45 AM UTC-7, Laszlo Nagy wrote:
> Gertjan Klein wrote:
> > Laszlo Nagy wrote:
> >
> >   
> >> However, there are malformed emails and I have to put them into the 
> >> database. What should I do with this:
> >>     
> > [...]
> >   
> >> There is no encoding given in the subject but it contains 0x92. When I 
> >> try to insert this into the database, I get:
> >>     
> >
> > This is indeed malformed email. The content type in the header specifies
> > iso-8859-1, but this looks like Windows code page 1252, where character
> > \x92 is a single right quote character (unicode \x2019).
> >
> > As the majority of the mail clients out there are Windows-based, and as
> > far as I can tell many of them get the encoding wrong, I'd simply try to
> > decode as CP1252 on error, especially if the content-type claims
> > iso-8859-1. Many Windows mail clients consider iso-8859-1 equivalent to
> > 1252 (it's not; the former doesn't use code points in the range \x8n and
> > \x9n, the latter does.)
> >
> >   
> Thank you very much!

Im sorry to intrude this conversation but I was wondering if I could get some help with a partial email (n********7 at m***.ru) this is how it appears when its obviously being hidden and I need the full email so I can get a hacker off my back and get my accounts returned to me my business needs these accounts to run. Help please!


From python at lucidity.plus.com  Tue Apr 18 19:31:34 2017
From: python at lucidity.plus.com (Erik)
Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2017 00:31:34 +0100
Subject: Python and the need for speed
In-Reply-To: <elnkjhFra7cU1@mid.individual.net>
References: <768f9a44-5d90-4756-8a99-821253a491f8@googlegroups.com>
 <58eceea2$0$1615$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <CAE6NSRD=xU_mNECNBU2w92Br=vgHJJVqSruGFrPB=vrbpkj0Nw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPjBxg_49OD_CNXUAHKjxYsUiLab4s_fCs_Ast3LyymB82zTCA@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.68.1491956914.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <4277c149-e136-4d33-91d5-d011df9149f1@googlegroups.com>
 <58edcdd2$0$1501$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <fdb4a93a-688e-4a3f-bbc3-0df3ee1d2ac7@googlegroups.com>
 <54f1685d-1d2d-44b5-869e-a510569ba9d1@googlegroups.com>
 <lf5a87ln8k9.fsf@ling.helsinki.fi>
 <1d352948-9029-4b86-b2f1-2b52608109ea@googlegroups.com>
 <el7qd0Fpai9U1@mid.individual.net>
 <2759e6e0-ad95-466c-81f6-556133620999@googlegroups.com>
 <58ef31ee$0$1501$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <6f8fc379-51f1-897d-f099-ebcee2be68fa@mrabarnett.plus.com>
 <bbf096e5-34a7-7a2c-8f37-3c6c3428c3b1@lucidity.plus.com>
 <mailman.261.1492507975.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <elnkjhFra7cU1@mid.individual.net>
Message-ID: <22d0673c-1726-af6b-4778-525c62a0d7c2@lucidity.plus.com>

On 19/04/17 00:08, Gregory Ewing wrote:
> Erik wrote:
>> When considering special-casing this opcode sequence, remember that
>> in-place operations can be performed on anonymous objects (i.e., those
>> referenced by a collection and not bound directly to a namespace):
>
> I think this means you would want multiple versions of the +=1 opcode:
> ADD_ONE_TO_NAME, ADD_ONE_TO_ITEM, ADD_ONE_TO_ATTR, etc. Essentially
> one for each variant of the STORE operation.

Yes, I get that ;) That's what I meant by a "set of opcodes" - some of 
which know that there's an implicit ROT3 to do. Perhaps in some other 
circumstances there's a ROT3 and another op before the STORE. Or perhaps 
three other ops ...

I'm just pointing out that concentrating on folding a very specific 
sequence of opcodes that you happen to see in your test code disassembly 
does not necessarily scale well.

Why just INPLACE_ADD? For each variant of each type of STORE operation 
(we know there are at least two), you also might want to have MULTIPLY, 
SUBTRACT, DIVIDE, BIT_OR, BIT_AND, SHIFT_LEFT, SHIFT_RIGHT, EXP and 
MODULO versions ... (have I forgotten any?)

E.




From greg.ewing at canterbury.ac.nz  Tue Apr 18 19:32:46 2017
From: greg.ewing at canterbury.ac.nz (Gregory Ewing)
Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2017 11:32:46 +1200
Subject: Static typing [was Re: Python and the need for speed]
In-Reply-To: <58f631c4$0$1593$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
References: <768f9a44-5d90-4756-8a99-821253a491f8@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.5.1491710256.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <58e9e519$0$1528$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <mailman.9.1491728745.2951.python-list@python.org>
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 <oci97l$10u4$1@gioia.aioe.org>
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 <CAE6NSRD=xU_mNECNBU2w92Br=vgHJJVqSruGFrPB=vrbpkj0Nw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPjBxg_49OD_CNXUAHKjxYsUiLab4s_fCs_Ast3LyymB82zTCA@mail.gmail.com>
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 <ellnbsFfattU1@mid.individual.net>
 <58f631c4$0$1593$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
Message-ID: <elnm10Fri20U1@mid.individual.net>

Steve D'Aprano wrote:

> You seem to be describing a *tracing JIT* compiler.

Well, yes, but it seems to me that a JIT compiler that
*doesn't* use tracing is just an AOT compiler that you
happen to run immediately before executing the program.

>>Cython doesn't do any of that -- it's just a plain, boring,
>>standard ahead-of-time compiler that goes by the type info
>>you give it and nothing more.
> 
> That cannot be the full story, because Cython can optimize some regular,
> unannotated Python code.

Maybe, but the point is that it does it using only
information present in the source. Also, it's usually
run once ahead of time to generate object code that's
stored.

I think we may be using different definitions of "JIT".
If you define it simply as running the compiler just
before you execute the code, then *some* ways of using
Cython might *barely* qualify -- you can set things up
so that a Python import will trigger compiling Cython
code if necessary.

But that doesn't seem like a useful way of defining JIT
to me. Such a compiler is not a different kind of beast
from an AOT compiler.

-- 
Greg


From bc at freeuk.com  Tue Apr 18 19:33:43 2017
From: bc at freeuk.com (bartc)
Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2017 00:33:43 +0100
Subject: Python and the need for speed
In-Reply-To: <mailman.282.1492554793.2951.python-list@python.org>
References: <768f9a44-5d90-4756-8a99-821253a491f8@googlegroups.com>
 <CAPjBxg_49OD_CNXUAHKjxYsUiLab4s_fCs_Ast3LyymB82zTCA@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.68.1491956914.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <4277c149-e136-4d33-91d5-d011df9149f1@googlegroups.com>
 <58edcdd2$0$1501$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <fdb4a93a-688e-4a3f-bbc3-0df3ee1d2ac7@googlegroups.com>
 <54f1685d-1d2d-44b5-869e-a510569ba9d1@googlegroups.com>
 <lf5a87ln8k9.fsf@ling.helsinki.fi>
 <1d352948-9029-4b86-b2f1-2b52608109ea@googlegroups.com>
 <el7qd0Fpai9U1@mid.individual.net>
 <2759e6e0-ad95-466c-81f6-556133620999@googlegroups.com>
 <58ef31ee$0$1501$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <6f8fc379-51f1-897d-f099-ebcee2be68fa@mrabarnett.plus.com>
 <bbf096e5-34a7-7a2c-8f37-3c6c3428c3b1@lucidity.plus.com>
 <mailman.261.1492507975.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <bVlJA.908395$w46.615568@fx39.am4>
 <7098a167-845d-0319-4d6a-5bb0f79f8059@lucidity.plus.com>
 <mailman.282.1492554793.2951.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <rnxJA.829199$3a3.213573@fx43.am4>

On 18/04/2017 23:33, Erik wrote:
> On 18/04/17 11:30, bartc wrote:
>> On 18/04/2017 10:32, Erik wrote:
>>
>>> the
>>> improvements over the original huge switch() to dispatch the bytecodes
>>> to the correct handler appear to have made this type of optimization
>>> less effective.
>>
>> What did they do to it, and on which version?
>
> It's the computed 'goto' stuff that I'm referring to. At the time, I was
> looking at 2.7.9 (which just has the big switch) and 3.5.0 (which has
> the computed gotos).

So that's 'label-pointers' which I assume must correspond to computed 
goto. (I don't know why they should be faster than a switch; they just are.)

> Perhaps the Windows build process requires that things are stable and
> doesn't support this type of development at all. You should take this
> part of the discussion to python-dev if you want to be able to build and
> experiment with it on Windows.

(OK, I've complained enough times in other groups about open source 
projects being too Linux-centric.)

>> If that had worked, then further optimisations are possible, such as
>> doing a pre-pass combining common operations, that would not be
>> worthwhile using 'official' byte-codes.)
>
> That is effectively what my experiments were doing - sort of -, but
> without introducing an assembler layer. I'm not convinced about that -
> given the right hints, a half-decent C compiler these days will produce
> pretty good code.

With the sort of lower level programs I write (in another dynamic 
language not Python), such an assembly layer improved performance 2-3 
times over using 100% HLL compiled using C and gcc-O3.

In fact the rest of the code didn't need such a hot compiler and didn't 
need to be in C.

With less numeric but still internally intensive tasks such as 
compilers, using the assembly layer was still over 50% faster than using 
C and gcc-O3.

However, with the very high level programs that many people (not me!) 
like to write in Python, any such advantages would narrow I think.

-- 
Bartc


From best_lay at yahoo.com  Tue Apr 18 19:44:16 2017
From: best_lay at yahoo.com (Wildman)
Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2017 18:44:16 -0500
Subject: Bigotry and hate speech on the python mailing list
References: <1671275688.2714711.1492524061267.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
 <1671275688.2714711.1492524061267@mail.yahoo.com>
 <CAPTjJmpKHtjJ6bQ2-mYAdyJB8HLKKeW6wmKEr+P+ywJufUbu+Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <854lxlbb9w.fsf@benfinney.id.au>
 <CAPTjJmrT6YG1vwWE4swv_zaWAmOGnCR6d2hG2JUkFgD1YCEMcQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.283.1492554846.2951.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <GuCdnW_2yLBNOWvFnZ2dnUU7-VudnZ2d@giganews.com>

On Wed, 19 Apr 2017 08:34:03 +1000, Chris Angelico wrote:

> On Wed, Apr 19, 2017 at 8:28 AM, Ben Finney <ben+python at benfinney.id.au> wrote:
>> Chris Angelico <rosuav at gmail.com> writes:
>>
>>> The charge has been examined and dropped. Steven did not violate the
>>> CoC. Please stop talking as if he has. He *was accused of* violating
>>> it, and then found innocent.
>>
>> Which post are you referring to (can you provide a URL)? I'd like to see
>> who came to that conclusion, what their wording was, and what their
>> authority was to do so.
> 
> I was referring to your post, in which a fairly solid argument was
> made for there being no guilt. Maybe you don't have any specific
> authority, but until someone actually acts in a moderatorial role,
> solid arguments are plenty authoritative enough for most of us.
> Particularly for the newsgroup people, where there is no central
> authority at all.
> 
> ChrisA

I believe the lack of moderator action supports the
conclusion that the CoC was not violated.

-- 
<Wildman> GNU/Linux user #557453
The cow died so I don't need your bull!


From bc at freeuk.com  Tue Apr 18 19:53:10 2017
From: bc at freeuk.com (bartc)
Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2017 00:53:10 +0100
Subject: Python and the need for speed
In-Reply-To: <elnl7rFrdhqU1@mid.individual.net>
References: <768f9a44-5d90-4756-8a99-821253a491f8@googlegroups.com>
 <CAE6NSRD=xU_mNECNBU2w92Br=vgHJJVqSruGFrPB=vrbpkj0Nw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPjBxg_49OD_CNXUAHKjxYsUiLab4s_fCs_Ast3LyymB82zTCA@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.68.1491956914.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <4277c149-e136-4d33-91d5-d011df9149f1@googlegroups.com>
 <58edcdd2$0$1501$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <fdb4a93a-688e-4a3f-bbc3-0df3ee1d2ac7@googlegroups.com>
 <54f1685d-1d2d-44b5-869e-a510569ba9d1@googlegroups.com>
 <lf5a87ln8k9.fsf@ling.helsinki.fi>
 <1d352948-9029-4b86-b2f1-2b52608109ea@googlegroups.com>
 <el7qd0Fpai9U1@mid.individual.net>
 <2759e6e0-ad95-466c-81f6-556133620999@googlegroups.com>
 <58ef31ee$0$1501$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <6f8fc379-51f1-897d-f099-ebcee2be68fa@mrabarnett.plus.com>
 <bbf096e5-34a7-7a2c-8f37-3c6c3428c3b1@lucidity.plus.com>
 <mailman.261.1492507975.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <bVlJA.908395$w46.615568@fx39.am4> <elnl7rFrdhqU1@mid.individual.net>
Message-ID: <GFxJA.928514$3B6.653284@fx40.am4>

On 19/04/2017 00:19, Gregory Ewing wrote:
> bartc wrote:

>> Another optimisation for something like ADD, was to to check for very
>> common types such as INT, and deal with those locally.
>
> And then you're on the path to writing a JIT compiler. If you
> can identify such cases, you might as well generate machine
> code for them.

No, the fast code path to be executed already exists when writing the 
interpreter.

The decision to use it would be done on a per-byte-code basis.

Rather a crude way of speeding things up. If you're ADDing something 
that isn't two ints or is just a bit too complex (int+float for 
example), then that would slow down because of the extra check for two ints.

Where it gets more JITish is if it identifies that a sequence of 
byte-codes can be handled by dedicated code synthesised at runtime, 
which can also have hard-coded operands rather than picking them up from 
the byte-code stream.

But this can still be done during an initial pass. This is some way from 
the very ambitious tracing JITs that people are up to now.

(I'm not going down route because I specialise in doing things the easy 
way.)


-- 
bartc


From steve+python at pearwood.info  Tue Apr 18 19:58:57 2017
From: steve+python at pearwood.info (Steve D'Aprano)
Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2017 09:58:57 +1000
Subject: Import name conflicts
References: <20170418182844.GB12882@mail.akwebsoft.com>
 <mailman.280.1492540433.2951.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <58f6a844$0$1619$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>

On Wed, 19 Apr 2017 04:28 am, Tim Johnson wrote:

> Using python 2.7~
> 
> For testing and edification purposes:
> 
> I have a project which has a controllers package at the directory
> level just below the root.

Do you mean the root of the file system?


>>From the top-level (root) of the project, I start my python
> interpreter.

Don't do that. You are defeating the whole purpose of packages.

The point of a package is to the caller, it appears like a single library,
while still allowing it to contain multiple files internally with its own
fine structure.

If your package structure looks like this:

X/controllers/
  +-- __init__.py
  +-- imp.py
  ... any other modules and sub-packages


then you should start Python from X, not from X/controllers.

Or even better, you should ensure X is in sys.path (there are various ways
to do that), and then start Python from anywhere.


> The packages is called 'controllers' and has a submodule named 'imp'
> 
> I do the following:
>>>> a = __import__('imp')
>>>> dir(a)
> ['C_BUILTIN', 'C_EXTENSION', 'IMP_HOOK', 'NullImporter',
> 'PKG_DIRECTORY', ....]
> # object a is the builtin imp module


Like (nearly) all __dunder__ methods and functions, __import__ is reserved
for use by Python and you shouldn't need to use it.

The conventional ways to access packages.imp are (untested):

# As a user of the controllers package
import controllers.imp as a

# Within the controllers package
from __future__ import absolute_imports
from . import imp as a


You only need the "from __future__ ..." directive once per module, but it
must be the very first line of executable code. (It can only be preceded by
blank lines or comments.)

To get access to the standard library imp, you do this:

# As a user of the controllers package
import imp as b

# Within the controllers package
import imp as b


[...]
> Now, suppose a python upgrade provides a package called controllers
> or there's some great third-party package available called
> controllers.

If you have two modules/packages with the same name, there's no clean way to
access one or the other. That's not how importing works. Whichever module
is found in the search path (sys.path) shadows the other.

That's both a feature and an annoyance, depend on whether you find it useful
or not. But that's how it is.

In the case of name conflicts between modules, your choices are:

- live with the conflict;
- rename the conflicting module;
- manually adjust sys.path when and as needed to avoid one and 
  get the other, then reverse your adjustments to do the opposite.


I don't recommend the third option. There's no clean way to do it. But if
you absolutely must, sys.path is just a list of places to search, you can
modify it at will. And sys.modules is just a dict of {name: module} caching
the modules, you need to modify that as well.



-- 
Steve
?Cheer up,? they said, ?things could be worse.? So I cheered up, and sure
enough, things got worse.



From tim at akwebsoft.com  Tue Apr 18 19:59:20 2017
From: tim at akwebsoft.com (Tim Johnson)
Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2017 15:59:20 -0800
Subject: Import name conflicts
In-Reply-To: <85zifd9vxd.fsf@benfinney.id.au>
References: <20170418182844.GB12882@mail.akwebsoft.com>
 <85zifd9vxd.fsf@benfinney.id.au>
Message-ID: <20170418235920.GC12882@mail.akwebsoft.com>

* Ben Finney <ben+python at benfinney.id.au> [170418 14:58]:
> Tim Johnson <tim at akwebsoft.com> writes:
> 
> > Using python 2.7~
> 
> In Python 2, you should turn on the ?default import is absolute? by
> issuing the statement::
> 
>     from __future__ import absolute_import
> 
> as one of the first statements in each module.
> 
> When you migrate your code to PYthon 3, that will be the default
> behaviour.
> 
> > The packages is called 'controllers' and has a submodule named 'imp'
> 
> To avoid the module named ?imp? in the standard library, your code
> should import ?imp? using a relative import. See PEP 328
> <URL:https://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0328/#rationale-for-relative-imports>.
> 
> So, you'd do::
> 
>     from . import imp
> 
> to import the ?imp? module relative to the current package.
> 
> > I do the following:
> > >>> a = __import__('imp')
> 
> It is best to avoid calling dunder functions directly; they are
> available for overriding the internals of language features, and
> *invoking* one is best done by just using the corresponding language
> feature.
> 
> Instead, use either the ?import? statement, or the ?importlib? standard
> library module <URL:https://docs.python.org/2/library/importlib.html>,
> specifically the ?importlib.import_module? function::
> 
>     import importlib
> 
>     a = importlib.import_module('.imp')
> 
> > Now, suppose a python upgrade provides a package called controllers or
> > there's some great third-party package available called controllers.
> 
> You don't even have to imagine that far: there is already a standard
> library module named ?imp?, so you already have that problem to contend
> with :-)
> 
> That is the distinction that led to ?absolute? import versus ?relative?
> import.
> 
> > How do I access the 'global' controllers package?
> 
> * Enable ?default import is absolute?, as described above.
> 
> * Issue a normal import statement: the absolute import search path will
>   be used.
> 
> I hope that helps.
  Lots of help Ben ...
  Beware, I started my career coding in ASM, then C, then python, so
  I'm prone to get under the hood and start playing with the wires.

  I made a simple test module called 'controllers' in another
  directory, used __import__ to get the 'local' imp module from the
  local controllers package then changed directories to the location
  of the "global" controllers module (in sys.path). Popped
  "controllers" from sys.modules and then called __import__ again to
  get that module as another variable.

  To reiterate Ben's method with working code and upper-level 
  importlib:
  >>> from __future__ import absolute_import
  >>> import importlib
  >>> i = importlib.import_module('.imp',package='controllers') #
  # package arg needed
  >>> dir(i)
  ['COLORS', 'CONTROLLER', 'DBNAME', 'DBPWD', 'DBUSERNAME',
  'ID_COL', 'JOB', 'MYTABLE', 'RECID', 'TABLEFORMAT',
  '__builtins__', '__doc__', '__file__', '__name__', '__package__',
  'load', 'std']
  # dir(i) verifies that 'i' is my 'local' 'imp' module
  >>> i1 = importlib.import_module('imp')
  >>> dir(i1) # result not shown
   # verifies 'i1' is my "global" imp module
   # Now, to load my alternate controllers module, I have to do
   # this:
   import os, sys
   sys.modules.pop('controllers')
   os.chdir('/alternate/controllers/directory')
   c = importlib.import_module('controllers')
   # now dir(c) verifies that c is my alternate 'controllers' module
   # NOTE: in my scenario, we could expect that the alternate
   # 'controller' module would be in sys.path. Some iteration might
   # be needed

   thanks Ben. :) I guess I have a plan

-- 
Tim 
http://www.akwebsoft.com, http://www.tj49.com


From python at lucidity.plus.com  Tue Apr 18 20:07:44 2017
From: python at lucidity.plus.com (Erik)
Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2017 01:07:44 +0100
Subject: Python and the need for speed
In-Reply-To: <rnxJA.829199$3a3.213573@fx43.am4>
References: <768f9a44-5d90-4756-8a99-821253a491f8@googlegroups.com>
 <CAPjBxg_49OD_CNXUAHKjxYsUiLab4s_fCs_Ast3LyymB82zTCA@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.68.1491956914.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <4277c149-e136-4d33-91d5-d011df9149f1@googlegroups.com>
 <58edcdd2$0$1501$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <fdb4a93a-688e-4a3f-bbc3-0df3ee1d2ac7@googlegroups.com>
 <54f1685d-1d2d-44b5-869e-a510569ba9d1@googlegroups.com>
 <lf5a87ln8k9.fsf@ling.helsinki.fi>
 <1d352948-9029-4b86-b2f1-2b52608109ea@googlegroups.com>
 <el7qd0Fpai9U1@mid.individual.net>
 <2759e6e0-ad95-466c-81f6-556133620999@googlegroups.com>
 <58ef31ee$0$1501$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <6f8fc379-51f1-897d-f099-ebcee2be68fa@mrabarnett.plus.com>
 <bbf096e5-34a7-7a2c-8f37-3c6c3428c3b1@lucidity.plus.com>
 <mailman.261.1492507975.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <bVlJA.908395$w46.615568@fx39.am4>
 <7098a167-845d-0319-4d6a-5bb0f79f8059@lucidity.plus.com>
 <mailman.282.1492554793.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <rnxJA.829199$3a3.213573@fx43.am4>
Message-ID: <697ac0c7-748e-0290-250d-e84ce3a36cfa@lucidity.plus.com>

On 19/04/17 00:33, bartc wrote:
> So that's 'label-pointers' which I assume must correspond to computed
> goto.

Yes - just different terminology. Being able to take the address of a 
label and "goto address" rather than "goto label".

> (I don't know why they should be faster than a switch; they just
> are.)

In C, the code generated for a switch() can do almost anything. It might 
cache the expression in a temporary and generate a linear "if .. else if 
.. else if ... else if" sequence (which is probably quite common for a 
sparsely populated set of values, after an initial range check is done) 
or it might generate a jump table (similar to the computed gotos) (which 
is probably quite common for a densely populated set of values, after an 
initial range check is done and an adjustment to make the index 
zero-based). It could also generate code that is some sort of hybrid of 
the two (for example, a switch with several densely-populated areas in 
an otherwise sparse set of values might do linear range-checks to find 
the right jump-table to use for each dense area).

What the computed goto stuff does is effectively reduce all of that to a 
single jump table with a known set of indices - there are 256 opcodes 
starting from 0 and each has an entry in an array of code pointers. To 
jump to the handler for an opcode, just 'goto handlers[op]'. No range 
checking, no index adjustment, no linear test sequences. This is what 
makes the dispatch fast.

> With the sort of lower level programs I write (in another dynamic
> language not Python), such an assembly layer improved performance 2-3
> times over using 100% HLL compiled using C and gcc-O3.

Did you give the C compiler enough hints though? Much like the above 
computed-goto stuff (which is less of a hint and more of an instruction 
that the compiler should be using jump tables and nothing else for that 
bit of code) there are lots of other ways of spelling things differently 
in C that can give better performance than what you might get by default 
(and I'm not even talking about compiler-specific #pragmas or whatever).

Also, remember that -O3 might (and by that I mean probably will! ;)) 
make your code larger. If you have some specific core areas of your 
interpreter that are now large enough to cause instruction cache misses 
then a smaller -O2 (or even -Os) compiled version might perform better 
on your hardware.

E.


From matt.mailinglists at gmail.com  Tue Apr 18 20:31:17 2017
From: matt.mailinglists at gmail.com (Matt)
Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2017 19:31:17 -0500
Subject: Test if Script Already Running
Message-ID: <CAAOM8FV-gV=F98KF8ks66-=Xd_TT20shyYaBuQCHq_KTm9rUew@mail.gmail.com>

I have a number of simple scripts I run with cron hourly on Centos
linux.  I want the script to check first thing if its already running
and if so exit.

In perl I did it with this at the start of every script:

    use Fcntl ':flock';
    INIT {
        open LH, $0 or die "Can't open $0 for locking!\nError: $!\n";
        flock LH, LOCK_EX | LOCK_NB or die "$0 is already running somewhere!\n";
    }

How can I do something like this in Python?


From python at lucidity.plus.com  Tue Apr 18 20:47:12 2017
From: python at lucidity.plus.com (Erik)
Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2017 01:47:12 +0100
Subject: Test if Script Already Running
In-Reply-To: <CAAOM8FV-gV=F98KF8ks66-=Xd_TT20shyYaBuQCHq_KTm9rUew@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAAOM8FV-gV=F98KF8ks66-=Xd_TT20shyYaBuQCHq_KTm9rUew@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <2e4cc38d-94a4-d370-c94a-65652f3c0019@lucidity.plus.com>

On 19/04/17 01:31, Matt wrote:
> In perl I did it with this at the start of every script:
>
>     use Fcntl ':flock';
[snip]
> How can I do something like this in Python?

 >>> import fcntl
 >>> help(fcntl.flock)

E.


From jon+usenet at unequivocal.eu  Tue Apr 18 20:48:05 2017
From: jon+usenet at unequivocal.eu (Jon Ribbens)
Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2017 00:48:05 -0000 (UTC)
Subject: Test if Script Already Running
References: <CAAOM8FV-gV=F98KF8ks66-=Xd_TT20shyYaBuQCHq_KTm9rUew@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.290.1492561886.2951.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <slrnofdd41.2ms.jon+usenet@sable.unequivocal.eu>

On 2017-04-19, Matt <matt.mailinglists at gmail.com> wrote:
> I have a number of simple scripts I run with cron hourly on Centos
> linux.  I want the script to check first thing if its already running
> and if so exit.
>
> In perl I did it with this at the start of every script:
>
>     use Fcntl ':flock';
>     INIT {
>         open LH, $0 or die "Can't open $0 for locking!\nError: $!\n";
>         flock LH, LOCK_EX | LOCK_NB or die "$0 is already running somewhere!\n";
>     }
>
> How can I do something like this in Python?

I did exactly that very recently (well, I used a different file for
the lock rather than the script itself, but it could easily be
altered):

    import errno
    import fcntl
    import os
    import sys

    LOCKFILE = "...lock file name..."

    lockfd = os.open(LOCKFILE, os.O_WRONLY | os.O_CREAT)
    try:
      fcntl.flock(lockfd, fcntl.LOCK_EX | fcntl.LOCK_NB)
    except IOError as exc:
      if exc[0] != errno.EAGAIN:
        raise
      sys.exit(0)


From tim at akwebsoft.com  Tue Apr 18 21:00:56 2017
From: tim at akwebsoft.com (Tim Johnson)
Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2017 17:00:56 -0800
Subject: Import name conflicts
In-Reply-To: <58f6a844$0$1619$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
References: <20170418182844.GB12882@mail.akwebsoft.com>
 <mailman.280.1492540433.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <58f6a844$0$1619$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
Message-ID: <20170419010056.GD12882@mail.akwebsoft.com>

* Steve D'Aprano <steve+python at pearwood.info> [170418 16:08]:
> On Wed, 19 Apr 2017 04:28 am, Tim Johnson wrote:
> 
> > Using python 2.7~
> > 
> > For testing and edification purposes:
> > 
> > I have a project which has a controllers package at the directory
> > level just below the root.
> 
> Do you mean the root of the file system?
> 
> 
> >>From the top-level (root) of the project, I start my python
> > interpreter.
> 
> Don't do that. You are defeating the whole purpose of packages.
> 
> The point of a package is to the caller, it appears like a single library,
> while still allowing it to contain multiple files internally with its own
> fine structure.
> 
> If your package structure looks like this:
> 
> X/controllers/
>   +-- __init__.py
>   +-- imp.py
>   ... any other modules and sub-packages
> 
> 
> then you should start Python from X, not from X/controllers.
> 
> Or even better, you should ensure X is in sys.path (there are various ways
> to do that), and then start Python from anywhere.
> 
> 
> > The packages is called 'controllers' and has a submodule named 'imp'
> > 
> > I do the following:
> >>>> a = __import__('imp')
> >>>> dir(a)
> > ['C_BUILTIN', 'C_EXTENSION', 'IMP_HOOK', 'NullImporter',
> > 'PKG_DIRECTORY', ....]
> > # object a is the builtin imp module
> 
> 
> Like (nearly) all __dunder__ methods and functions, __import__ is reserved
> for use by Python and you shouldn't need to use it.
> 
> The conventional ways to access packages.imp are (untested):
> 
> # As a user of the controllers package
> import controllers.imp as a
> 
> # Within the controllers package
> from __future__ import absolute_imports
> from . import imp as a
> 
> 
> You only need the "from __future__ ..." directive once per module, but it
> must be the very first line of executable code. (It can only be preceded by
> blank lines or comments.)
> 
> To get access to the standard library imp, you do this:
> 
> # As a user of the controllers package
> import imp as b
> 
> # Within the controllers package
> import imp as b
> 
> 
> [...]
> > Now, suppose a python upgrade provides a package called controllers
> > or there's some great third-party package available called
> > controllers.
> 
> If you have two modules/packages with the same name, there's no clean way to
> access one or the other. That's not how importing works. Whichever module
> is found in the search path (sys.path) shadows the other.
> 
> That's both a feature and an annoyance, depend on whether you find it useful
> or not. But that's how it is.
> 
> In the case of name conflicts between modules, your choices are:
> 
> - live with the conflict;
> - rename the conflicting module;
> - manually adjust sys.path when and as needed to avoid one and 
>   get the other, then reverse your adjustments to do the opposite.

  Thanks for the input. I'm running out of time today, so just want
  to thank you for your input and advice. The overriding issue is
  how to have a strategy so that some future conflict does not
  clobber a whole bunch of apps. Between Ben's and your subsequent
  comments, I've got a solution.

  cheers
-- 
Tim 
http://www.akwebsoft.com, http://www.tj49.com


From bob.martin at excite.com  Wed Apr 19 07:32:39 2017
From: bob.martin at excite.com (Bob Martin)
Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2017 07:32:39 BST
Subject: Bigotry and hate speech on the python mailing list
References: <2067199704.2357148.1492482208463.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
 <bea08728-6db0-4124-9686-a9d418f9c7ba@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <eloek7FpgeU2@mid.individual.net>

in 773391 20170418 141627 "Mario R. Osorio" <nimbiotics at gmail.com> wrote:

>Feels like this is something personal against Steven. You should probably t=
>ake this to court. I'd rather read Steven's insightful answers and rants th=
>an you crying. None here is meant to sugar coat anything, and if that is wh=
>at you are looking for, you don't even belong here

Agree 100% but please trim your quotes.


From mok-kong.shen at t-online.de  Wed Apr 19 04:06:53 2017
From: mok-kong.shen at t-online.de (Mok-Kong Shen)
Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2017 10:06:53 +0200
Subject: Version 2.1 of my natural language text steganography scheme
Message-ID: <od75qt$7qr$2@news.albasani.net>


Version 2.1 of my natural language text steganography scheme
WORDLISTTEXTSTEGANOGRAPHY, having left behind a few initial
shortcomings and tiny problems stemming e.g from version
incompatibilities of Python, is available on my new home page:
http://mok-kong-shen.de.

M. K. Shen


From mal at europython.eu  Wed Apr 19 05:08:50 2017
From: mal at europython.eu (M.-A. Lemburg)
Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2017 11:08:50 +0200
Subject: EuroPython 2017: Discounted flights available
Message-ID: <339f794c-c843-330f-6867-bd5bb2ac4ef0@europython.eu>

This year the Lufthansa group is our preferred airline for EuroPython.
The co-operation provides a 5-10% discount for flights to the
conference going to Bologna and Florence.

   *** https://ep2017.europython.eu/en/location/come-to-rimini/ ***

Airlines include Lufthansa, Swiss, Austrian, Belgium Airlines and
Eurowings.

To book a discounted flight please visit
https://www.lufthansa.com/de/en/Meetings-and-Events-Delegates

and enter the access code ITZJQRN in the ?Access to Your Special
Lufthansa Offer? area at the bottom.

This will open an online booking platform that will automatically
calculate the discount offered or provide you with an even better
offer if another promotional fare is available.

It?s the first time we cooperate with an airline for travel so you can
spend more money on ice cream in Rimini.


Enjoy,
--
EuroPython 2017 Team
http://ep2017.europython.eu/
http://www.europython-society.org/

PS: Please forward or retweet to help us reach all interested parties:
https://twitter.com/europython/status/854605615590764544
Thanks.


From bc at freeuk.com  Wed Apr 19 06:33:12 2017
From: bc at freeuk.com (bartc)
Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2017 11:33:12 +0100
Subject: Python and the need for speed
In-Reply-To: <mailman.289.1492560468.2951.python-list@python.org>
References: <768f9a44-5d90-4756-8a99-821253a491f8@googlegroups.com>
 <4277c149-e136-4d33-91d5-d011df9149f1@googlegroups.com>
 <58edcdd2$0$1501$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <fdb4a93a-688e-4a3f-bbc3-0df3ee1d2ac7@googlegroups.com>
 <54f1685d-1d2d-44b5-869e-a510569ba9d1@googlegroups.com>
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 <el7qd0Fpai9U1@mid.individual.net>
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 <58ef31ee$0$1501$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <6f8fc379-51f1-897d-f099-ebcee2be68fa@mrabarnett.plus.com>
 <bbf096e5-34a7-7a2c-8f37-3c6c3428c3b1@lucidity.plus.com>
 <mailman.261.1492507975.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <bVlJA.908395$w46.615568@fx39.am4>
 <7098a167-845d-0319-4d6a-5bb0f79f8059@lucidity.plus.com>
 <mailman.282.1492554793.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <rnxJA.829199$3a3.213573@fx43.am4>
 <697ac0c7-748e-0290-250d-e84ce3a36cfa@lucidity.plus.com>
 <mailman.289.1492560468.2951.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <F1HJA.1083351$Pm3.566831@fx42.am4>

On 19/04/2017 01:07, Erik wrote:
> On 19/04/17 00:33, bartc wrote:

[Talking about an interpreter that is /not/ for Python]

>> With the sort of lower level programs I write (in another dynamic
>> language not Python), such an assembly layer improved performance 2-3
>> times over using 100% HLL compiled using C and gcc-O3.
>
> Did you give the C compiler enough hints though?

If writing native C then I can spend a lot of time tweaking different 
things, and probably I could get a worthwhile improvement. But I doubt 
it would be double the speed.

But I anyway generate the C code from another language and I don't want 
it tied to a particular compiler or be full of specific pragmas and 
such, unless necessary. I don't need to because I can always bring out 
the asm version! [However that only works on Win64 platform. I use C for 
portability.]

> Also, remember that -O3 might (and by that I mean probably will! ;))
> make your code larger. If you have some specific core areas of your
> interpreter that are now large enough to cause instruction cache misses
> then a smaller -O2 (or even -Os) compiled version might perform better
> on your hardware.

My interpreter is on github as /one/ C source file (a link would be 
inappropriate here). People can compile it with -O3 or -O2 if they wish. 
It's a bit simpler than building CPython, and OS-neutral; that was 
deliberate.

-- 
Bartc


From rosuav at gmail.com  Wed Apr 19 07:27:18 2017
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2017 21:27:18 +1000
Subject: Python and the need for speed
In-Reply-To: <F1HJA.1083351$Pm3.566831@fx42.am4>
References: <768f9a44-5d90-4756-8a99-821253a491f8@googlegroups.com>
 <4277c149-e136-4d33-91d5-d011df9149f1@googlegroups.com>
 <58edcdd2$0$1501$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <fdb4a93a-688e-4a3f-bbc3-0df3ee1d2ac7@googlegroups.com>
 <54f1685d-1d2d-44b5-869e-a510569ba9d1@googlegroups.com>
 <lf5a87ln8k9.fsf@ling.helsinki.fi>
 <1d352948-9029-4b86-b2f1-2b52608109ea@googlegroups.com>
 <el7qd0Fpai9U1@mid.individual.net>
 <2759e6e0-ad95-466c-81f6-556133620999@googlegroups.com>
 <58ef31ee$0$1501$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <6f8fc379-51f1-897d-f099-ebcee2be68fa@mrabarnett.plus.com>
 <bbf096e5-34a7-7a2c-8f37-3c6c3428c3b1@lucidity.plus.com>
 <mailman.261.1492507975.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <bVlJA.908395$w46.615568@fx39.am4>
 <7098a167-845d-0319-4d6a-5bb0f79f8059@lucidity.plus.com>
 <mailman.282.1492554793.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <rnxJA.829199$3a3.213573@fx43.am4>
 <697ac0c7-748e-0290-250d-e84ce3a36cfa@lucidity.plus.com>
 <mailman.289.1492560468.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <F1HJA.1083351$Pm3.566831@fx42.am4>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmpuaQdQs5RTq4zcR7=JHzs8b4sSgRsLWQt8woV=-tKtdg@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Apr 19, 2017 at 8:33 PM, bartc <bc at freeuk.com> wrote:
> My interpreter is on github as /one/ C source file (a link would be
> inappropriate here). People can compile it with -O3 or -O2 if they wish.
> It's a bit simpler than building CPython, and OS-neutral; that was
> deliberate.

Then send me a link, and I'll try to compile it. You'd be surprised
how easy it is to be non-OS-neutral. Have you compiled it on the three
major platforms of today (Lin/Win/Mac)?

ChrisA


From marko at pacujo.net  Wed Apr 19 07:36:54 2017
From: marko at pacujo.net (Marko Rauhamaa)
Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2017 14:36:54 +0300
Subject: Python and the need for speed
References: <768f9a44-5d90-4756-8a99-821253a491f8@googlegroups.com>
 <54f1685d-1d2d-44b5-869e-a510569ba9d1@googlegroups.com>
 <lf5a87ln8k9.fsf@ling.helsinki.fi>
 <1d352948-9029-4b86-b2f1-2b52608109ea@googlegroups.com>
 <el7qd0Fpai9U1@mid.individual.net>
 <2759e6e0-ad95-466c-81f6-556133620999@googlegroups.com>
 <58ef31ee$0$1501$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <6f8fc379-51f1-897d-f099-ebcee2be68fa@mrabarnett.plus.com>
 <bbf096e5-34a7-7a2c-8f37-3c6c3428c3b1@lucidity.plus.com>
 <mailman.261.1492507975.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <bVlJA.908395$w46.615568@fx39.am4>
 <7098a167-845d-0319-4d6a-5bb0f79f8059@lucidity.plus.com>
 <mailman.282.1492554793.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <rnxJA.829199$3a3.213573@fx43.am4>
 <697ac0c7-748e-0290-250d-e84ce3a36cfa@lucidity.plus.com>
 <mailman.289.1492560468.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <F1HJA.1083351$Pm3.566831@fx42.am4>
 <CAPTjJmpuaQdQs5RTq4zcR7=JHzs8b4sSgRsLWQt8woV=-tKtdg@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.296.1492601246.2951.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <878tmw7hnt.fsf@elektro.pacujo.net>

Chris Angelico <rosuav at gmail.com>:

> On Wed, Apr 19, 2017 at 8:33 PM, bartc <bc at freeuk.com> wrote:
> You'd be surprised how easy it is to be non-OS-neutral. Have you
> compiled it on the three major platforms of today (Lin/Win/Mac)?

Generally, I don't try to be OS-neutral because

 1. I need it for Linux only

 2. I don't have Windows and Mac machines to test stuff on

 3. Windows and Linux are completely different system-programming-wise


Marko


From antoon.pardon at rece.vub.ac.be  Wed Apr 19 08:26:52 2017
From: antoon.pardon at rece.vub.ac.be (Antoon Pardon)
Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2017 14:26:52 +0200
Subject: Looping [was Re: Python and the need for speed]
In-Reply-To: <od08bl$mjp$1@blaine.gmane.org>
References: <768f9a44-5d90-4756-8a99-821253a491f8@googlegroups.com>
 <58eceea2$0$1615$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <CAE6NSRD=xU_mNECNBU2w92Br=vgHJJVqSruGFrPB=vrbpkj0Nw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPjBxg_49OD_CNXUAHKjxYsUiLab4s_fCs_Ast3LyymB82zTCA@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.68.1491956914.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <4277c149-e136-4d33-91d5-d011df9149f1@googlegroups.com>
 <58edcdd2$0$1501$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <fdb4a93a-688e-4a3f-bbc3-0df3ee1d2ac7@googlegroups.com>
 <54f1685d-1d2d-44b5-869e-a510569ba9d1@googlegroups.com>
 <lf5a87ln8k9.fsf@ling.helsinki.fi>
 <1d352948-9029-4b86-b2f1-2b52608109ea@googlegroups.com>
 <616ebaec-f140-491c-897e-f2c4b8368d28@googlegroups.com>
 <IboIA.298355$0L.88195@fx12.am4>
 <58f2dc43$0$1583$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <_6JIA.1041096$Pm3.778529@fx42.am4>
 <fe03f274-dab8-4510-8039-03e1c5f82527@googlegroups.com>
 <nLKIA.897491$w46.587707@fx39.am4>
 <0846e5ce-f237-47ba-958f-def607b3bce2@gmail.com>
 <od08bl$mjp$1@blaine.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <10b5e077-695f-6f6c-dc3b-f82886df6438@rece.vub.ac.be>

Op 16-04-17 om 19:07 schreef Terry Reedy:
> On 4/16/2017 11:35 AM, Michael Torrie wrote:
>> On 04/16/2017 07:57 AM, bartc wrote:
>>> But people just don't want it.
>>>
>>> /That/ is what surprises me, when people reject things that to me are
>>> no-brainers.
>
> Whereas to me, it is a no-brainer that we are better off *without*
> multiple while/loop constructs.
>
>> I simply don't care about these missing loop constructs.
>
> I do ;-)  I consider the current simplicity a feature.
>
> > Python works
>> great for what I use it for, and apparently works well for many people.
>
> The great majority* of 'repetition with variation' is sequentially
> processing items from a collection.  Python does that nicely with 'for
> item in collection: process(item)'.  While-loops take care of
> everthing else.

Not really, unless you count on the break statement.
But if you count on that, you don't even need a while,
you can start a for loop with a generator that never
stops and use breaks.

There was a time something like the following was
seriously considered for introduction in the language.

do
    part1
while condition:
    part2

which would be equivalent to the following:

while True:
    part1
    if not condition:
        break
    part2

But suddenly this was no longer considered. I still
wish they had followed through. I think such a construct
comes up often enough, to have such a loop construct.




From ganesh1pal at gmail.com  Wed Apr 19 09:26:41 2017
From: ganesh1pal at gmail.com (Ganesh Pal)
Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2017 18:56:41 +0530
Subject: match.groupdict() into a single dict
Message-ID: <CACT3xuXQKnLcOJRXBtjnN16MJj13YaTrj6uCyVVVZDpnVD3eFw@mail.gmail.com>

Hello friends,

I am learning regex and trying to use this to my scripts  I need some
suggestion on the below code.   I need to match all lines of a file that
have a specific pattern
and return them as a dictionary.

Sample line:

'NODE=ADAM-11: | TIME=2017-04-14T05:27:16-07:00 |  COND=Some lovely message
| MSG=attempt to record { addr=1,0,17080320:8192 action=xxhello-hell
o owner=1:0070:001a::HEAD }, but history information has a different owner:
owner: 1:0064:0005::HEAD, actions (new->old): { hello-hello
 * 1, none, none, hello-hello * 1, none, none, hello-hello * 1, none, none,
hello-hello * 1, none, none, hello-hello * 1, none, hello-h
ello * 1, none } bh hello_cookie: 8:hello-only bhv | LINSNAP=None | MAP=none



with open("/tmp/2.repo","r") as f:
     for line in f:
         result = re.search(r'MSG=attempt to record(.*)LINSNAP', line)
         if result:
            pdb.set_trace()
            for pattern in [ r'(?P<Block>(\d+,\d+,\d+:\d+))',

 r'(?P<p_owner>([0-9a-fA-F]+:[0-9a-fA-F]+:[0-9a-fA-F]+::HEAD))',

 r'(?P<a_owner>(owner:\s+[0-9a-fA-F]+:[0-9a-fA-F]+:[0-9a-fA-F]+::HEAD))',
                       ]:
                regex = re.compile(pattern)
                match = regex.search(line)
                print '  ', match.groupdict()

sample o/p:

  {'Block': '1,0,17080320:8192'}
   {'p_owner': '1:0070:001a::HEAD'}
   {'a_owner': 'owner: 1:0064:0005::HEAD'}

Questions

1. I was expecting a single dictionary with all matches every a line ,
something like below

   {'Block': '1,0,17080320:8192', 'p_owner': '1:0070:001a::HEAD','a_owner':
'owner: 1:0064:0005::HEAD'}

   (a)  I am thinking to  add these element  {'Block': '1,0,17080320:8192'}
, {'p_owner': '1:0070:001a::HEAD'} ... etc to new dictionary

   (b) or some better regex may be the for loop is not needed  and complied
pattern can be better.


I am a Linux user and on Python 2.7 , Thanks in advance :)
Regards,
Ganesh


From bc at freeuk.com  Wed Apr 19 09:46:05 2017
From: bc at freeuk.com (bartc)
Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2017 14:46:05 +0100
Subject: Python and the need for speed
In-Reply-To: <mailman.296.1492601246.2951.python-list@python.org>
References: <768f9a44-5d90-4756-8a99-821253a491f8@googlegroups.com>
 <54f1685d-1d2d-44b5-869e-a510569ba9d1@googlegroups.com>
 <lf5a87ln8k9.fsf@ling.helsinki.fi>
 <1d352948-9029-4b86-b2f1-2b52608109ea@googlegroups.com>
 <el7qd0Fpai9U1@mid.individual.net>
 <2759e6e0-ad95-466c-81f6-556133620999@googlegroups.com>
 <58ef31ee$0$1501$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <6f8fc379-51f1-897d-f099-ebcee2be68fa@mrabarnett.plus.com>
 <bbf096e5-34a7-7a2c-8f37-3c6c3428c3b1@lucidity.plus.com>
 <mailman.261.1492507975.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <bVlJA.908395$w46.615568@fx39.am4>
 <7098a167-845d-0319-4d6a-5bb0f79f8059@lucidity.plus.com>
 <mailman.282.1492554793.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <rnxJA.829199$3a3.213573@fx43.am4>
 <697ac0c7-748e-0290-250d-e84ce3a36cfa@lucidity.plus.com>
 <mailman.289.1492560468.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <F1HJA.1083351$Pm3.566831@fx42.am4>
 <CAPTjJmpuaQdQs5RTq4zcR7=JHzs8b4sSgRsLWQt8woV=-tKtdg@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.296.1492601246.2951.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <vSJJA.808445$nT1.201215@fx44.am4>

On 19/04/2017 12:27, Chris Angelico wrote:
> On Wed, Apr 19, 2017 at 8:33 PM, bartc <bc at freeuk.com> wrote:

[Warning: this is nothing to do with Python.]

>> My interpreter is on github as /one/ C source file (a link would be
>> inappropriate here). People can compile it with -O3 or -O2 if they wish.
>> It's a bit simpler than building CPython, and OS-neutral; that was
>> deliberate.
>
> Then send me a link, and I'll try to compile it. You'd be surprised
> how easy it is to be non-OS-neutral. Have you compiled it on the three
> major platforms of today (Lin/Win/Mac)?

It should work on Windows and Linux, but I've only tested with gcc and 
Tiny C recently. I don't have a Mac.

The original link was for 32-bits, as that tended to be faster, but I've 
redone versions for both: click on either pcc32.c or pcc64.c here (and 
do what you have to do to download to your machine):

https://github.com/bartg/langs/tree/master/qlang

Build instructions are in the sources, but are basically just:

    gcc pcc64.c -opcc -lm

Test using:

   ./pcc hello             # .q is assumed

I provide hello.q, or you can key it in; create a file hello.q with:

   proc start = println "Hello, World" end

To test on something bigger, download mc.qa (a composite of 27 .q 
files), and try that:

   ./pcc mc.qa

(mc.qa is an entire compiler for my static language; it should 
(byte-code) compile instantly then give usage instructions. To try it, 
copy hello.q to hello.m - the two languages conveniently have the same 
syntax - then try:

   ./pcc mc.qa hello               # defaults to .asm output I think
   ./pcc mc.qa /c64 hello          # hello.m to hello.c

I think it took 10ms to compile the 23Kloc of mc.qa to byte-code on my 
current machine.)

If you want another example of a trivial-to-build project, try:

    https://github.com/bartg/langs/blob/master/bccproj/mcc64.c

This is my C compiler in one source file (although not finished). Also 
OS-neutral (to run; however generated code runs on Win64).

This is how I wish other people would distributed their open source 
projects!


 > You'd be surprised how easy it is to be non-OS-neutral.

It's not so simple. By OS-neutral I mean code that doesn't depend on 
special features of either OS (Ie. Windows and Linux). Not conditional 
code that does either Windows stuff or Linux stuff.

This means the 'pcc' program above is restricted (it needs either 
LoadLibrary/GetProcAddr or dlopen/dlsym to be able to access external 
libraries, although essential functions are patched in).


-- 
bartc


From rosuav at gmail.com  Wed Apr 19 10:35:04 2017
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2017 00:35:04 +1000
Subject: Python and the need for speed
In-Reply-To: <vSJJA.808445$nT1.201215@fx44.am4>
References: <768f9a44-5d90-4756-8a99-821253a491f8@googlegroups.com>
 <54f1685d-1d2d-44b5-869e-a510569ba9d1@googlegroups.com>
 <lf5a87ln8k9.fsf@ling.helsinki.fi>
 <1d352948-9029-4b86-b2f1-2b52608109ea@googlegroups.com>
 <el7qd0Fpai9U1@mid.individual.net>
 <2759e6e0-ad95-466c-81f6-556133620999@googlegroups.com>
 <58ef31ee$0$1501$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <6f8fc379-51f1-897d-f099-ebcee2be68fa@mrabarnett.plus.com>
 <bbf096e5-34a7-7a2c-8f37-3c6c3428c3b1@lucidity.plus.com>
 <mailman.261.1492507975.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <bVlJA.908395$w46.615568@fx39.am4>
 <7098a167-845d-0319-4d6a-5bb0f79f8059@lucidity.plus.com>
 <mailman.282.1492554793.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <rnxJA.829199$3a3.213573@fx43.am4>
 <697ac0c7-748e-0290-250d-e84ce3a36cfa@lucidity.plus.com>
 <mailman.289.1492560468.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <F1HJA.1083351$Pm3.566831@fx42.am4>
 <CAPTjJmpuaQdQs5RTq4zcR7=JHzs8b4sSgRsLWQt8woV=-tKtdg@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.296.1492601246.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <vSJJA.808445$nT1.201215@fx44.am4>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmqHAkx6V0HR8+-pJsKyemWKWiwd=a7FQzHypqBwut+gQw@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Apr 19, 2017 at 11:46 PM, bartc <bc at freeuk.com> wrote:
>> You'd be surprised how easy it is to be non-OS-neutral.
>
> It's not so simple. By OS-neutral I mean code that doesn't depend on special
> features of either OS (Ie. Windows and Linux). Not conditional code that
> does either Windows stuff or Linux stuff.
>

Which means, therefore, that you either can't have any file system
facilities, or must transparently expose them to the application. You
also will have a lot of trouble making cross-platform subprocess
functionality. Even sockets, which are notionally the same on all
platforms, have a lot of little differences.

To be truly OS-neutral, you basically have to be either nerfed to
nothing, or so thin you're doing nothing.

ChrisA


From bc at freeuk.com  Wed Apr 19 11:57:20 2017
From: bc at freeuk.com (bartc)
Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2017 16:57:20 +0100
Subject: Python and the need for speed
In-Reply-To: <mailman.299.1492612514.2951.python-list@python.org>
References: <768f9a44-5d90-4756-8a99-821253a491f8@googlegroups.com>
 <el7qd0Fpai9U1@mid.individual.net>
 <2759e6e0-ad95-466c-81f6-556133620999@googlegroups.com>
 <58ef31ee$0$1501$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <6f8fc379-51f1-897d-f099-ebcee2be68fa@mrabarnett.plus.com>
 <bbf096e5-34a7-7a2c-8f37-3c6c3428c3b1@lucidity.plus.com>
 <mailman.261.1492507975.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <bVlJA.908395$w46.615568@fx39.am4>
 <7098a167-845d-0319-4d6a-5bb0f79f8059@lucidity.plus.com>
 <mailman.282.1492554793.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <rnxJA.829199$3a3.213573@fx43.am4>
 <697ac0c7-748e-0290-250d-e84ce3a36cfa@lucidity.plus.com>
 <mailman.289.1492560468.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <F1HJA.1083351$Pm3.566831@fx42.am4>
 <CAPTjJmpuaQdQs5RTq4zcR7=JHzs8b4sSgRsLWQt8woV=-tKtdg@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.296.1492601246.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <vSJJA.808445$nT1.201215@fx44.am4>
 <CAPTjJmqHAkx6V0HR8+-pJsKyemWKWiwd=a7FQzHypqBwut+gQw@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.299.1492612514.2951.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <xNLJA.1176129$vF2.233142@fx46.am4>

On 19/04/2017 15:35, Chris Angelico wrote:
> On Wed, Apr 19, 2017 at 11:46 PM, bartc <bc at freeuk.com> wrote:
>>> You'd be surprised how easy it is to be non-OS-neutral.

I misread that as 'easy to be OS-neutral'. If I turn it around, you're 
saying it is easy to be OS-specific. But we know that! And that is the 
problem.

>> It's not so simple. By OS-neutral I mean code that doesn't depend on special
>> features of either OS (Ie. Windows and Linux). Not conditional code that
>> does either Windows stuff or Linux stuff.
>>
>
> Which means, therefore, that you either can't have any file system
> facilities, or must transparently expose them to the application. You
> also will have a lot of trouble making cross-platform subprocess
> functionality. Even sockets, which are notionally the same on all
> platforms, have a lot of little differences.
>
> To be truly OS-neutral, you basically have to be either nerfed to
> nothing, or so thin you're doing nothing.

Enough works in that 'pcc' project, in terms of file i/o, that it can 
still run plenty of useful programs, such as compilers. (See from line 
3357 of pcc64.c for example; a list of functions that are patched in to 
the host rather linked to an external msvcrt or libc.so shared library.)

In this project, the only OS-specifics it really needs are:

  Windows: use LoadLibrary/GetProcAddr, and msvcrt.dll
  Linux:   use dlopen/dlsym, and libc.so.6

which wouldn't be hard to arrange.

Any other specifics are in the domain of the user programs (different 
libraries for screen i/o for example).

However, getting it to choose between one of those two pairs of 
functions is trivial, compared with the dependencies of a a typical open 
source project.

(I've just downloaded CPython sources from your github link, and the 
first thing I see is an 18,000 line 'configure' script (somewhat bigger 
than my entire C compiler).

This doesn't run on Windows, not without importing most of Linux via 
cygwin or MSYS. But the sources do now appear to support a Windows build:

Step 1: Download Visual Studio Express 2015

Last time I looked, it seemed to be a 5GB to 11GB download (GB not MB!). 
Nevertheless I start the process to get a better idea. It says:

  "Visual Studio requires .NET Framework 4.6 or higher."

Here where I start to think it might be easier to download all the Linux 
stuff after all! As, with my track record, I could download tons of 
stuff, and it still won't work.

FWIW, my mcc64.c file compiles to a 0.2MB executable which is capable of 
compiling that pcc64.c interpreter (I think it does it in 50msec for 
good measure; Tiny C will also do it instantly). /That/ is how simple 
things should be, and can be.

Cue a million excuses for why things have to be the way they are...)

-- 
bartc


From rurpy at yahoo.com  Wed Apr 19 12:03:51 2017
From: rurpy at yahoo.com (Rurpy)
Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2017 16:03:51 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: Bigotry and hate speech on the python mailing list
References: <12814164.3719742.1492617831912.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <12814164.3719742.1492617831912@mail.yahoo.com>

On 04/18/2017 04:34 PM, Chris Angelico wrote:
> On Wed, Apr 19, 2017 at 8:28 AM, Ben Finney <ben+python at benfinney.id.au> wrote:
>> Chris Angelico <rosuav at gmail.com> writes:
>>
>>> The charge has been examined and dropped. Steven did not violate the
>>> CoC. Please stop talking as if he has. He *was accused of* violating
>>> it, and then found innocent.
>>
>> Which post are you referring to (can you provide a URL)? I'd like to see
>> who came to that conclusion, what their wording was, and what their
>> authority was to do so.
> 
> I was referring to your post, in which a fairly solid argument was
> made for there being no guilt. Maybe you don't have any specific
> authority, but until someone actually acts in a moderatorial role,
> solid arguments are plenty authoritative enough for most of us.
> Particularly for the newsgroup people, where there is no central
> authority at all.

Perhaps you missed this rebuttal to Mr. Finney's "solid" argument?

  https://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-list/2017-April/721281.html

Perhaps you also failed to notice that neither Mr. Finney nor you 
chose to dispute that rebuttal? 

  Denial: a person is faced with a fact that is too uncomfortable 
  to accept and rejects it instead, insisting that it is not true 
  despite what may be overwhelming evidence. [*2]

Not saying I presented /overwhelming/ evidence but to simply wave it 
away and pretend it doesn't exist?  To simply declare, we prevailed?

Mr, Finney made *one* argument: that comparing someone's behavior 
to the ugly american stereotype is not bigotry because a stereotype
represents only people that exhibit the same deservedly criticizable
behavior.  I showed that was faulty in multiple ways.  In your 
own  words: "go read it."

I get your acceptance of the ugly american stereotype.  After all, 
we all have prejudices (liberals too [*2]) so it's understandable in 
these post-Trump times that we might be blind to our own prejudice 
when it comes to America bashing or closely related Trump bashing,
especially when surrounded by like-minded people.

But when someone attacks a poster's opinion, that some recent 
additions to Python might be a detriment to readability, by 
suggesting he is too old to understand them, with no consideration
of any other explanations?!  

That's no different than disagreeing with someone who says drug 
jail sentences are too long, with: you sound like one of those black 
drug-dealers.  And you both think that's ok?!  I'm aghast.  

Go right ahead and judge yourself and Steven within the CoC.  I 
don't accept that "judgment" any more than I accept former Alabama
Governor George Wallace's defense of segregation.

----
[*1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denial
[*2] https://www.psychologicalscience.org/news/releases/politics-and-prejudice-insights-from-psychological-science.html


From rurpy at yahoo.com  Wed Apr 19 12:23:42 2017
From: rurpy at yahoo.com (Rurpy)
Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2017 16:23:42 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: Bigotry (you win, I give up)
References: <682806876.3732405.1492619022353.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <682806876.3732405.1492619022353@mail.yahoo.com>


On 04/18/2017 04:34 PM, Chris Angelico wrote:
> On Wed, Apr 19, 2017 at 8:28 AM, Ben Finney <ben+python at benfinney.id.au> wrote:
>> Chris Angelico <rosuav at gmail.com> writes:
>>
>>> The charge has been examined and dropped. Steven did not violate the
>>> CoC. Please stop talking as if he has. He *was accused of* violating
>>> it, and then found innocent.
>>
>> Which post are you referring to (can you provide a URL)? I'd like to see
>> who came to that conclusion, what their wording was, and what their
>> authority was to do so.
> 
> I was referring to your post, in which a fairly solid argument was
> made for there being no guilt. Maybe you don't have any specific
> authority, but until someone actually acts in a moderatorial role,
> solid arguments are plenty authoritative enough for most of us.
> Particularly for the newsgroup people, where there is no central
> authority at all.

Hey Ben and Chris, 

Forget that last post of mine.  On thinking things over I can see 
now the "judgment" that has been made by your solid arguments and 
the weakness of my counter arguments.  I'm ready to accede to your 
judgment and I hope you bear me no grudge because oue my failure to
see your point immediately.  But I am still a little unclear on a 
couple things which I humbly request you straighten me out on...

Is it only the two stereotypes that were discussed, "ugly americans" 
and "too old to learn" old people that are acceptable?  Or are any 
stereotypes ok?

We all know that Jews stick together and accumulate lots of money.
(Not all of them of course, maybe not even a majority or plurality 
of them, I just mean just the ones that fit the stereotype.) Can 
I use that stereotype?  And obviously not to attack or criticize 
Jews, I would never do that because I am not a bigot.  I mean, use 
it only to point out objectionable behavior like avarice to someone.  
It's now ok if I call him a "greedy Jew", yes?  (And only if he 
is acting/speaking like one!  I know this is not a carte blanche 
to hurl around ethnic slurs.)

Of course there are many, many more stereotypes than just those
so if you could give us an idea how to decide which stereotypes 
are ok and which aren't, I'd really appreciate it.  Maybe you 
could make a list and post it here?

This is only scratching the surface but maybe you could use 
it as a start?
  culturally insensitive americans
  rude french people
  money-hungry jews
  terrorist moslems
  criminal or stupid black people
  unable-to-learn old people
  senile old people
  math, science and programming-inept women
  emotional women
  racist conservatives
  racist misogynist violent Trump supporters
  silly emotion-driven liberals
  rapist immigrants
  weak-willed fat people
  egotistical narcissistic buff people
  japanese people with bad teeth
  backward anti-science catholics
  dirty chinese people

I don't think stupid black people or senile old people should 
be allowable because those are not choosable *behaviors*.  
But is unable-to-learn old people a choosable behavior?  You
said that's ok.  And emotional women, that's a tough one.  
Are they emotional because of choice or hormones?

Also, I'm assuming we can all use stereotypes now but maybe 
that's wrong.  Could it be that only Steven is allowed to use 
them?  Or Steven, Ben, Chris and some other thought-leaders 
of this group?  Or maybe it's only people who have been members 
for a certain length of time or a certain number of posts?  
Again, I'd really appreciate it if you could clarify.

I apologize for all the questions and sorry for sounding like 
a silly emotion-driven liberal before!


From marko at pacujo.net  Wed Apr 19 12:23:59 2017
From: marko at pacujo.net (Marko Rauhamaa)
Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2017 19:23:59 +0300
Subject: Python and the need for speed
References: <768f9a44-5d90-4756-8a99-821253a491f8@googlegroups.com>
 <2759e6e0-ad95-466c-81f6-556133620999@googlegroups.com>
 <58ef31ee$0$1501$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <6f8fc379-51f1-897d-f099-ebcee2be68fa@mrabarnett.plus.com>
 <bbf096e5-34a7-7a2c-8f37-3c6c3428c3b1@lucidity.plus.com>
 <mailman.261.1492507975.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <bVlJA.908395$w46.615568@fx39.am4>
 <7098a167-845d-0319-4d6a-5bb0f79f8059@lucidity.plus.com>
 <mailman.282.1492554793.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <rnxJA.829199$3a3.213573@fx43.am4>
 <697ac0c7-748e-0290-250d-e84ce3a36cfa@lucidity.plus.com>
 <mailman.289.1492560468.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <F1HJA.1083351$Pm3.566831@fx42.am4>
 <CAPTjJmpuaQdQs5RTq4zcR7=JHzs8b4sSgRsLWQt8woV=-tKtdg@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.296.1492601246.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <vSJJA.808445$nT1.201215@fx44.am4>
 <CAPTjJmqHAkx6V0HR8+-pJsKyemWKWiwd=a7FQzHypqBwut+gQw@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.299.1492612514.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <xNLJA.1176129$vF2.233142@fx46.am4>
Message-ID: <874lxkv00w.fsf@elektro.pacujo.net>

bartc <bc at freeuk.com>:
> Enough works in that 'pcc' project, in terms of file i/o, that it can
> still run plenty of useful programs, such as compilers.

This might have come up before, but do you have a language specification
somewhere?


Marko


From bc at freeuk.com  Wed Apr 19 13:15:58 2017
From: bc at freeuk.com (bartc)
Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2017 18:15:58 +0100
Subject: Python and the need for speed
In-Reply-To: <874lxkv00w.fsf@elektro.pacujo.net>
References: <768f9a44-5d90-4756-8a99-821253a491f8@googlegroups.com>
 <58ef31ee$0$1501$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <6f8fc379-51f1-897d-f099-ebcee2be68fa@mrabarnett.plus.com>
 <bbf096e5-34a7-7a2c-8f37-3c6c3428c3b1@lucidity.plus.com>
 <mailman.261.1492507975.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <bVlJA.908395$w46.615568@fx39.am4>
 <7098a167-845d-0319-4d6a-5bb0f79f8059@lucidity.plus.com>
 <mailman.282.1492554793.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <rnxJA.829199$3a3.213573@fx43.am4>
 <697ac0c7-748e-0290-250d-e84ce3a36cfa@lucidity.plus.com>
 <mailman.289.1492560468.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <F1HJA.1083351$Pm3.566831@fx42.am4>
 <CAPTjJmpuaQdQs5RTq4zcR7=JHzs8b4sSgRsLWQt8woV=-tKtdg@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.296.1492601246.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <vSJJA.808445$nT1.201215@fx44.am4>
 <CAPTjJmqHAkx6V0HR8+-pJsKyemWKWiwd=a7FQzHypqBwut+gQw@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.299.1492612514.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <xNLJA.1176129$vF2.233142@fx46.am4> <874lxkv00w.fsf@elektro.pacujo.net>
Message-ID: <fXMJA.376338$iJ3.54890@fx15.am4>

On 19/04/2017 17:23, Marko Rauhamaa wrote:
> bartc <bc at freeuk.com>:
>> Enough works in that 'pcc' project, in terms of file i/o, that it can
>> still run plenty of useful programs, such as compilers.
>
> This might have come up before, but do you have a language specification
> somewhere?

(Nothing formal nor up-to-date.

(In the absence of other users, or enough people using programs written 
in it in used by others, then it is easy for the project to be volatile.

Previous, simpler versions I used in the 90s, which were part of a 
graphics app, /were/ used by others, both the language and the programs 
I and they wrote. So it had to be more stable. It even had a 350-page 
manual, created with the same graphics app of course.)

I'll try and throw something together, because it could do with it.)

-- 
bartc


From python at mrabarnett.plus.com  Wed Apr 19 15:49:54 2017
From: python at mrabarnett.plus.com (MRAB)
Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2017 20:49:54 +0100
Subject: match.groupdict() into a single dict
In-Reply-To: <CACT3xuXQKnLcOJRXBtjnN16MJj13YaTrj6uCyVVVZDpnVD3eFw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CACT3xuXQKnLcOJRXBtjnN16MJj13YaTrj6uCyVVVZDpnVD3eFw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <89beb2f0-1652-5497-6bf9-82eb0375936c@mrabarnett.plus.com>

On 2017-04-19 14:26, Ganesh Pal wrote:
> Hello friends,
> 
> I am learning regex and trying to use this to my scripts  I need some
> suggestion on the below code.   I need to match all lines of a file that
> have a specific pattern
> and return them as a dictionary.
> 
> Sample line:
> 
> 'NODE=ADAM-11: | TIME=2017-04-14T05:27:16-07:00 |  COND=Some lovely message
> | MSG=attempt to record { addr=1,0,17080320:8192 action=xxhello-hell
> o owner=1:0070:001a::HEAD }, but history information has a different owner:
> owner: 1:0064:0005::HEAD, actions (new->old): { hello-hello
>   * 1, none, none, hello-hello * 1, none, none, hello-hello * 1, none, none,
> hello-hello * 1, none, none, hello-hello * 1, none, hello-h
> ello * 1, none } bh hello_cookie: 8:hello-only bhv | LINSNAP=None | MAP=none
> 
> 
> 
> with open("/tmp/2.repo","r") as f:
>       for line in f:
>           result = re.search(r'MSG=attempt to record(.*)LINSNAP', line)
>           if result:
>              pdb.set_trace()
>              for pattern in [ r'(?P<Block>(\d+,\d+,\d+:\d+))',
> 
>   r'(?P<p_owner>([0-9a-fA-F]+:[0-9a-fA-F]+:[0-9a-fA-F]+::HEAD))',
> 
>   r'(?P<a_owner>(owner:\s+[0-9a-fA-F]+:[0-9a-fA-F]+:[0-9a-fA-F]+::HEAD))',
>                         ]:
>                  regex = re.compile(pattern)
>                  match = regex.search(line)
>                  print '  ', match.groupdict()
> 
> sample o/p:
> 
>    {'Block': '1,0,17080320:8192'}
>     {'p_owner': '1:0070:001a::HEAD'}
>     {'a_owner': 'owner: 1:0064:0005::HEAD'}
> 
> Questions
> 
> 1. I was expecting a single dictionary with all matches every a line ,
> something like below
> 
>     {'Block': '1,0,17080320:8192', 'p_owner': '1:0070:001a::HEAD','a_owner':
> 'owner: 1:0064:0005::HEAD'}
> 
>     (a)  I am thinking to  add these element  {'Block': '1,0,17080320:8192'}
> , {'p_owner': '1:0070:001a::HEAD'} ... etc to new dictionary
> 
>     (b) or some better regex may be the for loop is not needed  and complied
> pattern can be better.
> 
> 
> I am a Linux user and on Python 2.7 , Thanks in advance :)
> 
Why would you expect a single dictionary? You're doing 3 separate matches!

You could just combine the patterns as alternatives:

# The alternatives are matched repeatedly. The final '.' alternative
# will consume a character if none of the previous subpatterns match,
# ready for the next repeat.
subpatterns = [r'(?P<Block>(\d+,\d+,\d+:\d+))',
     r'(?P<p_owner>([0-9a-fA-F]+:[0-9a-fA-F]+:[0-9a-fA-F]+::HEAD))',
 
r'(?P<a_owner>(owner:\s+[0-9a-fA-F]+:[0-9a-fA-F]+:[0-9a-fA-F]+::HEAD))',
     '.']
pattern = '(%s)*' % '|'.join(subpatterns)
match = re.search(pattern, line)
print '  ', match.groupdict()


From ben+python at benfinney.id.au  Wed Apr 19 15:56:42 2017
From: ben+python at benfinney.id.au (Ben Finney)
Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2017 05:56:42 +1000
Subject: Bigotry (you win, I give up)
References: <682806876.3732405.1492619022353.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
 <682806876.3732405.1492619022353@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <85r30o9nnp.fsf@benfinney.id.au>

Rurpy via Python-list <python-list at python.org> writes:

> I don't think stupid black people or senile old people should be
> allowable because those are not choosable *behaviors*. But is
> unable-to-learn old people a choosable behavior? You said that's ok.

No, I didn't say that's okay, and I'm not aware of Chris saying it. At
this point you've been reading far too much into what isn't there, and
now you're just flatly stating untruths.

> Again, I'd really appreciate it if you could clarify.

Bigotry against people for innate traits is not okay.

Demanding special respect for a class of ideas is not okay.

Wringing your own impression out of people's words, and then claiming
that's what they said, is not okay.

I hope that clarifies.

-- 
 \                    ?It's all in the mind, you know.? ?The Goon Show |
  `\                                                                   |
_o__)                                                                  |
Ben Finney



From ethan at stoneleaf.us  Wed Apr 19 16:25:05 2017
From: ethan at stoneleaf.us (Ethan Furman)
Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2017 13:25:05 -0700
Subject: Bigotry (you win, I give up)
In-Reply-To: <85r30o9nnp.fsf@benfinney.id.au>
References: <682806876.3732405.1492619022353.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
 <682806876.3732405.1492619022353@mail.yahoo.com>
 <85r30o9nnp.fsf@benfinney.id.au>
Message-ID: <58F7C7A1.2020002@stoneleaf.us>

On 04/19/2017 12:56 PM, Ben Finney wrote:

> Demanding special respect for a class of ideas is not okay.

Asking that you not denigrate non-Python ideas on the Python list is not asking for "special respect", it is asking that 
you be courteous to those who come here to discuss Python.

--
~Ethan~


From python at lucidity.plus.com  Wed Apr 19 16:36:36 2017
From: python at lucidity.plus.com (Erik)
Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2017 21:36:36 +0100
Subject: Bigotry (you win, I give up)
In-Reply-To: <58F7C7A1.2020002@stoneleaf.us>
References: <682806876.3732405.1492619022353.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
 <682806876.3732405.1492619022353@mail.yahoo.com>
 <85r30o9nnp.fsf@benfinney.id.au> <58F7C7A1.2020002@stoneleaf.us>
Message-ID: <c55011dd-5057-b16d-8d27-62ce4326b472@lucidity.plus.com>

On 19/04/17 21:25, Ethan Furman wrote:
> Asking that you not denigrate non-Python ideas on the Python list is not
> asking for "special respect",

I have no idea what you just said! :D

This is why I dislike code such as:

   if not no_results(data) != not_valid:
      pass

... and I've seen lots of that sort of thing (but mostly not in Python 
code, thankfully).

E.


From ethan at stoneleaf.us  Wed Apr 19 16:54:07 2017
From: ethan at stoneleaf.us (Ethan Furman)
Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2017 13:54:07 -0700
Subject: Bigotry (you win, I give up)
In-Reply-To: <c55011dd-5057-b16d-8d27-62ce4326b472@lucidity.plus.com>
References: <682806876.3732405.1492619022353.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
 <682806876.3732405.1492619022353@mail.yahoo.com>
 <85r30o9nnp.fsf@benfinney.id.au> <58F7C7A1.2020002@stoneleaf.us>
 <c55011dd-5057-b16d-8d27-62ce4326b472@lucidity.plus.com>
Message-ID: <58F7CE6F.8080200@stoneleaf.us>

On 04/19/2017 01:36 PM, Erik wrote:
> On 19/04/17 21:25, Ethan Furman wrote:

>> Asking that you not denigrate non-Python ideas on the Python list is not
>> asking for "special respect",
>
> I have no idea what you just said! :D

Yeah, I try to avoid negative checks in code.

How about this?

special_respect = False
be_courteous = True

ideas = [
     ('socio-economic', 'capitalism rules!'),
     ('spiritual', 'religion rules!'),
     ('political', 'left-wing rules!'),
     ('python', 'spaces rule!'),
     ]

for area, opinion in ideas:
     if area != 'python' and be_courteous:
         continue
     else:
         print(opinion)

print('non-Python ideas/opinions easily omitted without Special Respect!')

--
~Ethan~


From venkatachalam.19 at gmail.com  Wed Apr 19 17:00:29 2017
From: venkatachalam.19 at gmail.com (Venkatachalam Srinivasan)
Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2017 14:00:29 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Data exchange between python script and bash script
In-Reply-To: <mailman.129.1491328726.2961.python-list@python.org>
References: <50298d86-e688-4162-b96f-632e5a98c141@googlegroups.com>
 <CAO1D73EK-=5jyc-nD7GaVjM3i7ACh8bAT7cJ3GQrMkWmL8h8rg@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.122.1491320533.2961.python-list@python.org>
 <ae8a82f5-7c9a-40ac-b943-035c09f4bf05@googlegroups.com>
 <CAO1D73HxsoACXtU7wM1b7+R1NKZ2R5Xwi9KscWBN-X=FGoNVLw@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.129.1491328726.2961.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <f9769efc-7de2-442c-9800-e9e2086ddfc8@googlegroups.com>

On Tuesday, April 4, 2017 at 7:58:56 PM UTC+2, justin walters wrote:
> On Tue, Apr 4, 2017 at 10:39 AM, Venkatachalam Srinivasan <
> venkatachalam.19 at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> > Hi,
> >
> > Thanks for the answer. I need bash for connecting data exchange between
> > two python scripts. To be more specific, data from one script has to be
> > passed to the another script. You are right, I don't need the data in the
> > bash other than to pass the obtained data to the another script which uses
> > the data for further analysis.
> >
> > Regarding using the json file, I am new to this. A naive question is that
> > if the data is too large then is json file is easy to handle? Is json file
> > for large data is not computationally expensive? I am not using textfile
> > for the same reason of being computationally expensive.
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Venkatachalam Srinivasan
> > --
> > https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
> >
> 
> It could be expensive to create a dictionary from the json file depending
> on the amount of data.
> 
> Alternatively, you could use a Unix socket to transmit the data between
> processes
> if you're on a linux or OSx machine. This is probably the best option as
> you can send the dictionary
> object itself. This would eliminate the need for the bash script entirely.
> The first script builds the
> dictionary object and sends it to the socket. The second script is
> listening on the socket and receives
> the dictionary object. Python's standard library has built in support for
> unix sockets. This means you
> can actually run two parallel Python instances and communicate between
> them. Assuming that
> the first script can build the dictionaries before the second script is
> done processing them, you will
> probably need some kind of task queue. Celery: http://www.celeryproject.org/
> tends to be a good solution
> for this problem. In fact, Celery is probably the simplest option now that
> I think about it.
> 
> Another alternative is using a SQLite database which Python has built in
> support for. Should be
> a bit faster and less memory-intensive.

Hi,

Thank you for a clearer explanation. I tried with sqlite and now it seems to work fine. Yet, we have to check with the real time system which may pose some problems to the amount of data (I guess). So, until now everything is fine on this. Thank you.


From venkatachalam.19 at gmail.com  Wed Apr 19 17:03:11 2017
From: venkatachalam.19 at gmail.com (Venkatachalam Srinivasan)
Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2017 14:03:11 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Data exchange between python script and bash script
In-Reply-To: <mailman.152.1491395867.2961.python-list@python.org>
References: <50298d86-e688-4162-b96f-632e5a98c141@googlegroups.com>
 <vg3lgrfm3ng.fsf@coffee.modeemi.fi>
 <mailman.152.1491395867.2961.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <7f37c254-0249-4585-b813-9d6b92c402cd@googlegroups.com>

On Wednesday, April 5, 2017 at 2:38:00 PM UTC+2, Anssi Saari wrote:
> venkatachalam.19 at gmail.com writes:
> 
> > For example, the data is printed in
> > execute_sensor_process.py as follows:
> >
> > print >>sys.stderr,sens_data
> >
> > By printing the data onto sys.stderr and assigning a return variable in the bash, I am expecting the data to be assigned.
> >
> > But this is not happening.
> 
> This part I can answer alhtough I'm not sure it helps with your actual
> problems. 
> 
> Bash manual explicitly states command substition (the $(...) structure)
> replaces the command with the standard *output* of the command. So since
> your Python program writes to standard error, you get nothing.

Hi,

I understand your point. I tried by printing the standard output, but the result was the same. The output of one module is not captured in the bash script using the $(...) operation. So, I have switched to other possibilities of storing the data and accessing it from other program.

Thanks for your suggestion.


From venkatachalam.19 at gmail.com  Wed Apr 19 17:06:34 2017
From: venkatachalam.19 at gmail.com (Venkatachalam Srinivasan)
Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2017 14:06:34 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Data exchange between python script and bash script
In-Reply-To: <eklav2F69m6U1@mid.individual.net>
References: <50298d86-e688-4162-b96f-632e5a98c141@googlegroups.com>
 <vg3lgrfm3ng.fsf@coffee.modeemi.fi>
 <mailman.152.1491395867.2961.python-list@python.org>
 <eklav2F69m6U1@mid.individual.net>
Message-ID: <ddf9140b-73b9-4d71-b5c1-342e7cb83644@googlegroups.com>

On Thursday, April 6, 2017 at 12:55:41 AM UTC+2, Gregory Ewing wrote:
> Anssi Saari wrote:
> > Bash manual explicitly states command substition (the $(...) structure)
> > replaces the command with the standard *output* of the command.
> 
> Another problem is your use of '&' here:
> 
>     sensor_data=$(python execute_sensor_process.py) &
> 
> The '&' causes the whole command, including the variable
> assignment, to be executed in a subshell. So the variable
> is only bound in the subshell process and won't be seen
> from the main shell process.
> 
> Running the command in the background here is pointless,
> since if the shell script needs the variable value for
> subsequent processing it will have to wait for the
> command to finish. So just get rid of the '&'.
> 
> -- 
> Greg

Hi, 

I understand your point. But the issue is, I need both the program to be executed continuously. That is one module to control the robot and another module to locate the robot. The location data from one module is required by the other module for the entire execution. And for now, I have solved it by writing the data to a database and read it whenever required.

Thanks for your help!!!


From python at lucidity.plus.com  Wed Apr 19 17:28:21 2017
From: python at lucidity.plus.com (Erik)
Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2017 22:28:21 +0100
Subject: Data exchange between python script and bash script
In-Reply-To: <ddf9140b-73b9-4d71-b5c1-342e7cb83644@googlegroups.com>
References: <50298d86-e688-4162-b96f-632e5a98c141@googlegroups.com>
 <vg3lgrfm3ng.fsf@coffee.modeemi.fi>
 <mailman.152.1491395867.2961.python-list@python.org>
 <eklav2F69m6U1@mid.individual.net>
 <ddf9140b-73b9-4d71-b5c1-342e7cb83644@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <1adeb05a-4fa6-563d-023a-a9dd38f9c256@lucidity.plus.com>

[Disclaimer: I have not fully read this thread. If I'm jumping in with 
something that's irrelevant for other reasons, please just ignore me]

On 19/04/17 22:06, Venkatachalam Srinivasan wrote:
> On Thursday, April 6, 2017 at 12:55:41 AM UTC+2, Gregory Ewing
> wrote:
>> sensor_data=$(python execute_sensor_process.py) &
>>
> I understand your point. But the issue is, I need both the program to
> be executed continuously. That is one module to control the robot and
> another module to locate the robot. The location data from one module
> is required by the other module for the entire execution.

If that is the *only* input to the main loop in the bash script, then 
you can do something like:

   python execute_sensor_process.py | while read sensor_data
   do
       echo "I have sensor data:" $sensor_data
   done

If you have another main loop and you just want to sample the sensor 
data periodically within that loop, then I'm not being very helpful ;)

E.


From ben+python at benfinney.id.au  Wed Apr 19 18:58:35 2017
From: ben+python at benfinney.id.au (Ben Finney)
Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2017 08:58:35 +1000
Subject: Bigotry (you win, I give up)
References: <682806876.3732405.1492619022353.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
 <682806876.3732405.1492619022353@mail.yahoo.com>
 <85r30o9nnp.fsf@benfinney.id.au> <58F7C7A1.2020002@stoneleaf.us>
Message-ID: <85mvbc9f8k.fsf@benfinney.id.au>

Ethan Furman <ethan at stoneleaf.us> writes:

> [?] asking that you be courteous to those who come here to discuss
> Python.

On that we can agree. Let's be courteous to people here, and keep
discussing Python.

-- 
 \        ?Pinky, are you pondering what I'm pondering?? ?Wuh, I think |
  `\       so, Brain, but burlap chafes me so.? ?_Pinky and The Brain_ |
_o__)                                                                  |
Ben Finney



From ethan at stoneleaf.us  Wed Apr 19 19:41:57 2017
From: ethan at stoneleaf.us (Ethan Furman)
Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2017 16:41:57 -0700
Subject: Bigotry (you win, I give up)
In-Reply-To: <85mvbc9f8k.fsf@benfinney.id.au>
References: <682806876.3732405.1492619022353.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
 <682806876.3732405.1492619022353@mail.yahoo.com>
 <85r30o9nnp.fsf@benfinney.id.au> <58F7C7A1.2020002@stoneleaf.us>
 <85mvbc9f8k.fsf@benfinney.id.au>
Message-ID: <58F7F5C5.9030205@stoneleaf.us>

On 04/19/2017 03:58 PM, Ben Finney wrote:
> Ethan Furman writes:
>
>> [?] asking that you be courteous to those who come here to discuss
>> Python.
>
> On that we can agree. Let's be courteous to people here, and keep
> discussing Python.

Will you be filtering your signature lines, then?  Because you cannot simultaneously be courteous to someone and mock 
their beliefs.

--
~Ethan~


From mok-kong.shen at t-online.de  Wed Apr 19 20:09:33 2017
From: mok-kong.shen at t-online.de (Mok-Kong Shen)
Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2017 02:09:33 +0200
Subject: How to obtain an up-to-date document of tkinter
Message-ID: <od8u7u$qu$1@news.albasani.net>


How could one obtain an up-to-date document of tkinter. I ask this
question because apparently there are stuffs of tkinter that
worked in Python 3.5 but no longer in Python 3.6.1.

M. K. Shen


From breamoreboy at gmail.com  Wed Apr 19 20:11:35 2017
From: breamoreboy at gmail.com (breamoreboy at gmail.com)
Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2017 17:11:35 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Bigotry (you win, I give up)
In-Reply-To: <mailman.309.1492645297.2951.python-list@python.org>
References: <682806876.3732405.1492619022353.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
 <682806876.3732405.1492619022353@mail.yahoo.com>
 <85r30o9nnp.fsf@benfinney.id.au>
 <58F7C7A1.2020002@stoneleaf.us> <85mvbc9f8k.fsf@benfinney.id.au>
 <58F7F5C5.9030205@stoneleaf.us>
 <mailman.309.1492645297.2951.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <33c8918f-ee97-44ae-854f-e1c50aeff070@googlegroups.com>

On Thursday, April 20, 2017 at 12:41:58 AM UTC+1, Ethan Furman wrote:
> On 04/19/2017 03:58 PM, Ben Finney wrote:
> > Ethan Furman writes:
> >
> >> [?] asking that you be courteous to those who come here to discuss
> >> Python.
> >
> > On that we can agree. Let's be courteous to people here, and keep
> > discussing Python.
> 
> Will you be filtering your signature lines, then?  Because you cannot simultaneously be courteous to someone and mock 
> their beliefs.
> 
> --
> ~Ethan~

This is getting ludicrous.  Ben has been using these signatures for years and nobody has said a word.  Why is it that somebody deliberately starts a thread to cause trouble when there is nothing at all to discuss, the moderators leap in, but when people like the RUE keep spewing their crap it takes years to get something done?  Please don't give me the nonsense about "the RUE wasn't directly attacking anybody".  He was attacking the entire community with his highly insulting dross, and especially the person responsible for writing PEP 393 and its inplementation.  By the way he's still at it.

Kindest regards.

Mark Lawrence.


From breamoreboy at gmail.com  Wed Apr 19 20:16:45 2017
From: breamoreboy at gmail.com (breamoreboy at gmail.com)
Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2017 17:16:45 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: How to obtain an up-to-date document of tkinter
In-Reply-To: <od8u7u$qu$1@news.albasani.net>
References: <od8u7u$qu$1@news.albasani.net>
Message-ID: <ddb6edfb-7203-45aa-9514-7cbead28e9a4@googlegroups.com>

On Thursday, April 20, 2017 at 1:09:45 AM UTC+1, Mok-Kong Shen wrote:
> How could one obtain an up-to-date document of tkinter. I ask this
> question because apparently there are stuffs of tkinter that
> worked in Python 3.5 but no longer in Python 3.6.1.
> 
> M. K. Shen

https://docs.python.org/3/library/tkinter.html

Can you please state what worked in 3.5 but doesn't in 3.6?

Kindest regards.

Mark Lawrence.


From python at deborahswanson.net  Wed Apr 19 20:52:47 2017
From: python at deborahswanson.net (Deborah Swanson)
Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2017 17:52:47 -0700
Subject: Bigotry (you win, I give up)
In-Reply-To: <85r30o9nnp.fsf@benfinney.id.au>
Message-ID: <00d201d2b970$6e4c8530$27b23dae@sambora>

> Rupee via Python-list <python-list at python.org> writes:
> 
> > I don't think stupid black people or senile old people should be 
> > allowable because those are not choosable *behaviors*. But is 
> > unable-to-learn old people a choosable behavior? You said that's ok.

I've mostly been ignoring this thread and its predecessors, and I
probably won't read all the recent posts to it.

But this bit caught my eye because I hold the opposite opinion about old
people's ability to learn.

It is a choice. Your noggin doesn't just conk out at a certain age, or
stage in the aging process. There are plenty of examples of scholars and
authors (and many others) who've kept their wits sharp and their minds
fully functional. Some till the day they died, others didn't quite last
the whole way.

There's two paths to keeping the mind forever alive ("forever" meaning
at least till death, we don't know what comes after that). Both are
almost purely physical.

One is to use the mind all one's life, and the principle is identical to
"use it or lose it", more commonly heard in athletic circles. But the
mind is like muscle, the more you use it the stronger it gets. And vice
versa. And I'm living proof that if you use your mind hard all your life
(since I was about 3, in my case), you can let it coast for at least a
decade and it will still be there, and it can still learn. Of course
there's a lengthy stage of bringing it out of mothballs, but it can be
done. 

The other path I'm living proof of is the food you eat. The brain
responds badly to chemicals that enter the body, and particularly ones
you ingest in food. And the brain is blood thirsty. It particularly
craves grassfed and pastured red meat, the rarer the better, and organ
meats. I eat all forms of it, but the prize goes to wild red meats -
antelope, venison & wild boar. I'll spare you all the reasons why and
the evidence, but they are very good reasons.

I've also had university math and science professors who swore by heavy
daily exercise regimes, but I haven't done it and neither have aged
scholars who still had their good minds very late in life, so rigorous
exercise is not a requirement. I have no idea whether it's sufficient to
sustain and grow the mind either, but no doubt it helps.

So, it is a choice of how you live your life, and how important it is to
you to have a mind worth keeping. I see no reason to accord those people
who didn't care all their lives any special status.

Oh, and I think it's also a choice whether you are stupid or not,
barring physical abnormalities of the brain. Regardless of age, gender
or race.



From ben+python at benfinney.id.au  Wed Apr 19 21:56:07 2017
From: ben+python at benfinney.id.au (Ben Finney)
Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2017 11:56:07 +1000
Subject: Bigotry (you win, I give up)
References: <682806876.3732405.1492619022353.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
 <682806876.3732405.1492619022353@mail.yahoo.com>
 <85r30o9nnp.fsf@benfinney.id.au> <58F7C7A1.2020002@stoneleaf.us>
 <85mvbc9f8k.fsf@benfinney.id.au> <58F7F5C5.9030205@stoneleaf.us>
Message-ID: <85efwnall4.fsf@benfinney.id.au>

Ethan Furman <ethan at stoneleaf.us> writes:

> Will you be filtering your signature lines, then? Because you cannot
> simultaneously be courteous to someone and mock their beliefs.

I disagree. Beliefs are courteously mocked in this forum every week, and
the forum and this community is healthier for that.

-- 
 \      ?Actually I made up the term ?object-oriented?, and I can tell |
  `\            you I did not have C++ in mind.? ?Alan Kay, creator of |
_o__)                                        Smalltalk, at OOPSLA 1997 |
Ben Finney



From rurpy at yahoo.com  Wed Apr 19 22:01:48 2017
From: rurpy at yahoo.com (Rurpy)
Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2017 02:01:48 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: Bigotry (you win, I give up)
References: <1907013130.134378.1492653708953.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <1907013130.134378.1492653708953@mail.yahoo.com>

On 04/19/2017 01:56 PM, Ben Finney wrote:
> Rurpy via Python-list <python-list at python.org> writes:
> 
>> I don't think stupid black people or senile old people should be
>> allowable because those are not choosable *behaviors*. But is
>> unable-to-learn old people a choosable behavior? You said that's ok.
>
> No, I didn't say that's okay, and I'm not aware of Chris saying it.

You and Chris refused to find any fault with the use of the two
stereotypes under discussion one of which was "unable-to-learn 
old people".  You defended a poster's use of those stereotypes.
That is fairly described as "being ok with".

> At this point you've been reading far too much into what isn't there,
> and now you're just flatly stating untruths.

Per above it was not an untruth and you are flatly stating an 
untruth by claiming it was.

>> Again, I'd really appreciate it if you could clarify.
> 
> Bigotry against people for innate traits is not okay.'

That's not clarifying, that's repeating.  I asked some specific
questions that you are not answering, for example, which of the 
stereotypes in the list I gave are you ok with and which are you 
not?

Nor is your criteria a very useful given that for many "traits" 
there is not widespread scientific consensus on whether they are 
innate (genetic?), cultural, or consciously adopted.  
The boundary between cultural and conscious is also very fuzzy.

> Demanding special respect for a class of ideas is not okay.

People are not distinct from their ideas.  People internalize 
ideas and their ideas form part of their identity.  When deeply
held, we tend to call them beliefs rather than ideas.
Thus disrespecting or attacking some ideas is tantamount to 
attacking the person, at least in the person's view if not your's.

This is why you cannot create a forum where no offense is given 
to anyone.  The best you can try to do is try to find some tradeoff
that balances freedom of expression and offense.

Using stereotypes greatly increases the likelihood of offense.
I gave a number of reasons why previously and which I refer you 
back to. [*1]

One particular one I'll reiterate: it doesn't help to say "I 
mean only the bad ones", the stereotype WILL get applied far 
beyond the scope you may intend.  When you say "ugly americans", 
the "americans" part creates an implicit contrast with other 
nationalities and implies that somehow americans are more 
ugly than people of other nationalities.  Yet you have no 
real evidence of that.  There does not even exist a definition 
of uglinesss in a quantitative sense let alone any metrics 
of the number of uglies of any nationality.[*2]  So you 
accuse millions of people of an offense with nothing to 
back it up other than some generalized (and informed by bias) 
feelings it is true.  Given that most americans, like people 
of any other nationality, don't see themselves as ugly, you 
offend a large number of people some of whom will dispute your 
claim.  Do you want that discussion on the Python list?

This is also why I drew the parallel to the African-American 
criminal stereotype which, at least in the US, is widely 
recognized as racist and harmful the entire African-American 
community even though there are some (disputed) statistics 
defenders of the stereotype can resort to.  In your case, you 
don't even have that.
 
Now I'm the one who is starting to repeat things so I will
leave it at that.
 
> Wringing your own impression out of people's words, and then claiming
> that's what they said, is not okay.

We've established above that that did not happen.
 
> I hope that clarifies.

No, sorry.

----
[*1] https://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-list/2017-April/721281.html
[*2] I am sure there is research that addresses this issue but 
 I doubt there is widespread consensus on its consistency or 
 applicability.  Regardless, research is seldom used validly 
 in the employment of stereotypes and even less so in the
 understanding of the stereotype by the recipients.


From ethan at stoneleaf.us  Wed Apr 19 22:09:49 2017
From: ethan at stoneleaf.us (Ethan Furman)
Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2017 19:09:49 -0700
Subject: Bigotry (you win, I give up)
In-Reply-To: <33c8918f-ee97-44ae-854f-e1c50aeff070@googlegroups.com>
References: <682806876.3732405.1492619022353.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
 <682806876.3732405.1492619022353@mail.yahoo.com>
 <85r30o9nnp.fsf@benfinney.id.au> <58F7C7A1.2020002@stoneleaf.us>
 <85mvbc9f8k.fsf@benfinney.id.au> <58F7F5C5.9030205@stoneleaf.us>
 <mailman.309.1492645297.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <33c8918f-ee97-44ae-854f-e1c50aeff070@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <58F8186D.9040103@stoneleaf.us>

On 04/19/2017 05:11 PM, breamoreboy at gmail.com wrote:

> This is getting ludicrous.  Ben has been using these signatures for years and nobody has said a word.

Just because it was challenged before does not mean it was, or is, right / courteous / respectful .

> Why is it that somebody deliberately starts a thread to cause trouble when there is nothing at all to discuss, the
 > moderators leap in

Do you mean me?  Because I'm not wearing my moderator hat.

> but when people like the RUE keep spewing their crap it takes years to get something done?

I wasn't a moderator then, and the other moderators for this list (there are three or four of us) are more tolerant.

> Please don't give me the nonsense about "the RUE wasn't directly attacking anybody".  He was attacking the entire
 > community with his highly insulting dross, and especially the person responsible for writing PEP 393 and its
 > inplementation.

I agree.  I think I even wrote to the moderators about the RUE a couple times.

 > By the way he's still at it.

Not on the Python List he isn't*.  The moderators have no control over the usenet portion, so if that's where you get 
your posts from then you'll still see him.

And as a general bulletin:  If you have an issue you want the moderators to know about, the email address to use is

   python-list at python.org

with a "-owner" after the "python-list" part.

--
~Ethan~

*At least, I haven't seen the RUE lately -- let us know if he's back at it.


From ben+python at benfinney.id.au  Wed Apr 19 22:21:25 2017
From: ben+python at benfinney.id.au (Ben Finney)
Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2017 12:21:25 +1000
Subject: The belief that learning is more difficult for older people (was:
 Bigotry (you win, I give up))
References: <85r30o9nnp.fsf@benfinney.id.au>
 <00d201d2b970$6e4c8530$27b23dae@sambora>
Message-ID: <858tmvakey.fsf_-_@benfinney.id.au>

"Deborah Swanson" <python at deborahswanson.net> writes:

> But this bit caught my eye because I hold the opposite opinion about
> old people's ability to learn.
>
> It is a choice.

The topic is complex, and both ?It is entirely determined by your own
choices? and ?It is in no way determined by your own choices? are false.

The NIH article _Regulation of Cerebrovascular Aging_ is a good one on
the topic <URL:https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21204352>.

In brief: there *are* inevitable processes that advance further as the
human body ages, which tend to make learning more difficult. And there
*are* choices that most people can make, which can improve that
prognosis but not stop it.

> So, it is a choice of how you live your life, and how important it is
> to you to have a mind worth keeping. I see no reason to accord those
> people who didn't care all their lives any special status.

That simply isn't supported by the evidence. Human brain function tends
to deteriorate past early adulthood.

Not everyone is in possession of the precise knowledge at the right
stage of life to slow that decline; and of those who do have that
knowledge, many are not in a position to effectively take those actions;
and of those who do take such action, not all of them will certainly be
effective.

There are many actions a person can take throughout their life that
*may* improve, statistically, the likelihood of slowing the
deterioration of brain function in later life.

But merely knowing that a person is (a) advanced in age, and (b)
experiencing difficulty learning new things, does not justify concluding
that person's conscious choices are to blame. How can you dismiss the
possibility of forces beyond their control ? bad dietary options, bad
education options, bad genetic inheritance, bad luck generally ? as
causing their situation?

You cannot reasonably dismiss those factors beyond their control. So no,
I'd say it is not acceptable to draw the general conclusion that
people's own choices are entirely responsible for how much decline in
learning ability they experience.

> Oh, and I think it's also a choice whether you are stupid or not,
> barring physical abnormalities of the brain. Regardless of age, gender
> or race.

Well, all deterioration of brain function is in some sense due to
?physical abnormalities of the brain?, because normal brain function is
healthy by definition.

A surprising ? and uncomfortably fuzzy-bordered ? amount of people's
current personality is due to the state of their brain, beyond their
conscious control, today and in their past. That control is only ever
partial, in varying degrees.

An honest response to that fact is to apportion responsibility only for
those choices we know the person has control over, to the extent they
actually have that control.

To people who experience a decline in learning ability as they age, I
say: Welcome here, and please keep learning at your own speed.

-- 
 \        ?You don't change the world by placidly finding your bliss ? |
  `\        you do it by focusing your discontent in productive ways.? |
_o__)                                       ?Paul Z. Myers, 2011-08-31 |
Ben Finney



From ben+python at benfinney.id.au  Wed Apr 19 22:27:38 2017
From: ben+python at benfinney.id.au (Ben Finney)
Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2017 12:27:38 +1000
Subject: Bigotry (you win, I give up)
References: <1907013130.134378.1492653708953.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
 <1907013130.134378.1492653708953@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <854lxjak4l.fsf@benfinney.id.au>

Rurpy via Python-list <python-list at python.org> writes:

> You and Chris refused to find any fault with the use of the two
> stereotypes under discussion one of which was "unable-to-learn old
> people".

I expressed absolutely nothing on that topic, so I didn't ?refuse to
find any fault?. To claim ?you said that is okay? is a bald untruth, I
said no such thing.

You are pointing to *absence of a statement* on a topic and claiming
that it is a ?refusal to find any fault?.

By that logic, you have also ?refused to find fault with? my neighbour's
mistreatment of their child. How horrible of you!

Except, that's not a claim I would make of you. I'll thank you not to do
the same of others.

-- 
 \       ?I have always wished for my computer to be as easy to use as |
  `\       my telephone; my wish has come true because I can no longer |
_o__)          figure out how to use my telephone.? ?Bjarne Stroustrup |
Ben Finney



From nathan.ernst at gmail.com  Wed Apr 19 23:15:08 2017
From: nathan.ernst at gmail.com (Nathan Ernst)
Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2017 22:15:08 -0500
Subject: Bigotry (you win, I give up)
In-Reply-To: <00d201d2b970$6e4c8530$27b23dae@sambora>
References: <85r30o9nnp.fsf@benfinney.id.au>
 <00d201d2b970$6e4c8530$27b23dae@sambora>
Message-ID: <CAPjBxg_Y=GNObBnpzRN890c3iWvbbaoJnK-E4_9pGGKHRgt8rA@mail.gmail.com>

I've likewise mostly been ignoring this thread as it has gotten out of
control.

At a few jobs ago, I was nearly daily involved with interviewing
candidates. Initially, I was point on "culture fit". i.e. how would the
potential employee react to having a phone thrown at them (it happened - I
worked at a trading shop). Best response to that was "I'd firstly duck,
then pick it up and throw it back" - I gave that candidate a go.

But, back to the point, when I was doing technical interviews, regardless
of the technology/language, I had a single goal: to get the candidate to
admit they did not know the answer. The reasoning is simple. I don't want
the candidate that thinks they know everything. I want the candidate that
knows what they don't know. In the interview, there were tons of bonus
points for speculation & what the candidate would do to resolve the
question (this is what I was looking for) - a flat I don't know didn't
suffice.

On Wed, Apr 19, 2017 at 7:52 PM, Deborah Swanson <python at deborahswanson.net>
wrote:

> > Rupee via Python-list <python-list at python.org> writes:
> >
> > > I don't think stupid black people or senile old people should be
> > > allowable because those are not choosable *behaviors*. But is
> > > unable-to-learn old people a choosable behavior? You said that's ok.
>
> I've mostly been ignoring this thread and its predecessors, and I
> probably won't read all the recent posts to it.
>
> But this bit caught my eye because I hold the opposite opinion about old
> people's ability to learn.
>
> It is a choice. Your noggin doesn't just conk out at a certain age, or
> stage in the aging process. There are plenty of examples of scholars and
> authors (and many others) who've kept their wits sharp and their minds
> fully functional. Some till the day they died, others didn't quite last
> the whole way.
>
> There's two paths to keeping the mind forever alive ("forever" meaning
> at least till death, we don't know what comes after that). Both are
> almost purely physical.
>
> One is to use the mind all one's life, and the principle is identical to
> "use it or lose it", more commonly heard in athletic circles. But the
> mind is like muscle, the more you use it the stronger it gets. And vice
> versa. And I'm living proof that if you use your mind hard all your life
> (since I was about 3, in my case), you can let it coast for at least a
> decade and it will still be there, and it can still learn. Of course
> there's a lengthy stage of bringing it out of mothballs, but it can be
> done.
>
> The other path I'm living proof of is the food you eat. The brain
> responds badly to chemicals that enter the body, and particularly ones
> you ingest in food. And the brain is blood thirsty. It particularly
> craves grassfed and pastured red meat, the rarer the better, and organ
> meats. I eat all forms of it, but the prize goes to wild red meats -
> antelope, venison & wild boar. I'll spare you all the reasons why and
> the evidence, but they are very good reasons.
>
> I've also had university math and science professors who swore by heavy
> daily exercise regimes, but I haven't done it and neither have aged
> scholars who still had their good minds very late in life, so rigorous
> exercise is not a requirement. I have no idea whether it's sufficient to
> sustain and grow the mind either, but no doubt it helps.
>
> So, it is a choice of how you live your life, and how important it is to
> you to have a mind worth keeping. I see no reason to accord those people
> who didn't care all their lives any special status.
>
> Oh, and I think it's also a choice whether you are stupid or not,
> barring physical abnormalities of the brain. Regardless of age, gender
> or race.
>
> --
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
>


From cs at zip.com.au  Thu Apr 20 00:27:33 2017
From: cs at zip.com.au (Cameron Simpson)
Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2017 14:27:33 +1000
Subject: Test if Script Already Running
In-Reply-To: <CAAOM8FV-gV=F98KF8ks66-=Xd_TT20shyYaBuQCHq_KTm9rUew@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAAOM8FV-gV=F98KF8ks66-=Xd_TT20shyYaBuQCHq_KTm9rUew@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20170420042733.GA54448@cskk.homeip.net>

On 18Apr2017 19:31, Matt <matt.mailinglists at gmail.com> wrote:
>I have a number of simple scripts I run with cron hourly on Centos
>linux.  I want the script to check first thing if its already running
>and if so exit.
>
>In perl I did it with this at the start of every script:
>
>    use Fcntl ':flock';
>    INIT {
>        open LH, $0 or die "Can't open $0 for locking!\nError: $!\n";
>        flock LH, LOCK_EX | LOCK_NB or die "$0 is already running somewhere!\n";
>    }
>
>How can I do something like this in Python?

Others have pointed the way to an exact implementation.

For myself, I like mkdir. It is portable. It is atomic. It fails if the target 
exists.  It works over NFS etc. It is easy.

  os.mkdir('lock')
  ... do stuff ...
  os.rmdir('lock')

and it is equally doable in a shell script (eg your cron job):

  if mkdir lockdir
  then
    ... do stuff ...
    rmdir lockdir
  else
    echo "lockdir already takens, aborting" >&2
    exit 1
  fi

which means you don't need to fit the lock logic inside every tool, you can 
just do it in the script that calls them.

Cheers,
Cameron Simpson <cs at zip.com.au>


From tjreedy at udel.edu  Thu Apr 20 02:08:00 2017
From: tjreedy at udel.edu (Terry Reedy)
Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2017 02:08:00 -0400
Subject: How to obtain an up-to-date document of tkinter
In-Reply-To: <od8u7u$qu$1@news.albasani.net>
References: <od8u7u$qu$1@news.albasani.net>
Message-ID: <od9j7t$7m0$1@blaine.gmane.org>

On 4/19/2017 8:09 PM, Mok-Kong Shen wrote:
> 
> How could one obtain an up-to-date document of tkinter.

http://www.tcl.tk/man/tcl8.6/TkCmd/contents.htm
documents the tcl/tk that tkinter wraps.  There are a few things that 
are not included in tkinter.

> I ask this
> question because apparently there are stuffs of tkinter that
> worked in Python 3.5 but no longer in Python 3.6.1.

I don't know of any such.

-- 
Terry Jan Reedy



From mok-kong.shen at t-online.de  Thu Apr 20 03:19:55 2017
From: mok-kong.shen at t-online.de (Mok-Kong Shen)
Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2017 09:19:55 +0200
Subject: How to obtain an up-to-date document of tkinter
In-Reply-To: <ddb6edfb-7203-45aa-9514-7cbead28e9a4@googlegroups.com>
References: <od8u7u$qu$1@news.albasani.net>
 <ddb6edfb-7203-45aa-9514-7cbead28e9a4@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <od9ner$nim$1@news.albasani.net>

Am 20.04.2017 um 02:16 schrieb breamoreboy at gmail.com:
> On Thursday, April 20, 2017 at 1:09:45 AM UTC+1, Mok-Kong Shen wrote:
>> How could one obtain an up-to-date document of tkinter. I ask this
>> question because apparently there are stuffs of tkinter that
>> worked in Python 3.5 but no longer in Python 3.6.1.

>
> https://docs.python.org/3/library/tkinter.html
>
> Can you please state what worked in 3.5 but doesn't in 3.6?

Yes. In Python V.3.5, I simply had the declaration:

from tkinter import *

and thereafter I could use in code lines e.g.:

messagebox.showerror(........)

However, in Python V.3.6.1, I have to have the declaration:

from tkinter import *
import tkinter.messagebox

and thereafter have to use:

tkinter.messagebox.showerror(........)


M. K. Shen


From mok-kong.shen at t-online.de  Thu Apr 20 03:22:42 2017
From: mok-kong.shen at t-online.de (Mok-Kong Shen)
Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2017 09:22:42 +0200
Subject: How to obtain an up-to-date document of tkinter
In-Reply-To: <mailman.318.1492668492.2951.python-list@python.org>
References: <od8u7u$qu$1@news.albasani.net> <od9j7t$7m0$1@blaine.gmane.org>
 <mailman.318.1492668492.2951.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <od9nk1$nim$2@news.albasani.net>

Am 20.04.2017 um 08:08 schrieb Terry Reedy:
> On 4/19/2017 8:09 PM, Mok-Kong Shen wrote:
[snip]
>> I ask this
>> question because apparently there are stuffs of tkinter that
>> worked in Python 3.5 but no longer in Python 3.6.1.
>
> I don't know of any such.

Please see my reply to breamoreboy.

M. K. Shen


From ganesh1pal at gmail.com  Thu Apr 20 03:35:08 2017
From: ganesh1pal at gmail.com (Ganesh Pal)
Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2017 13:05:08 +0530
Subject: match.groupdict() into a single dict
In-Reply-To: <89beb2f0-1652-5497-6bf9-82eb0375936c@mrabarnett.plus.com>
References: <CACT3xuXQKnLcOJRXBtjnN16MJj13YaTrj6uCyVVVZDpnVD3eFw@mail.gmail.com>
 <89beb2f0-1652-5497-6bf9-82eb0375936c@mrabarnett.plus.com>
Message-ID: <CACT3xuXk7=9rKzVVTRpds7baVxat5-VWiejKT4eGFWE1nED+2Q@mail.gmail.com>

> Why would you expect a single dictionary? You're doing 3 separate matches!
>
>   correct, I didn't knew how to combine it all the patterns


You could just combine the patterns as alternatives:
>
> # The alternatives are matched repeatedly. The final '.' alternative
> # will consume a character if none of the previous subpatterns match,
> # ready for the next repeat.
> subpatterns = [r'(?P<Block>(\d+,\d+,\d+:\d+))',
>     r'(?P<p_owner>([0-9a-fA-F]+:[0-9a-fA-F]+:[0-9a-fA-F]+::HEAD))',
>
> r'(?P<a_owner>(owner:\s+[0-9a-fA-F]+:[0-9a-fA-F]+:[0-9a-fA-F]+::HEAD))',
>     '.']
> pattern = '(%s)*' % '|'.join(subpatterns)
> match = re.search(pattern, line)
> print '  ', match.groupdict()
>
>
There seems to be some silly mistake after I added  the above code. I
get "*sre_constants.error:
nothing to repeat "*
error

Sample code:

#!/usr/bin/python
import re

with open("/tmp/2.repo","r") as f:
     for line in f:
         result = re.search(r'MSG=attempt to record(.*)LINSNAP', line)
         if result:

            for subpattern in [r'(?P<Block>(\d+,\d+,\d+:\d+))',

 r'(?P<p_owner>([0-9a-fA-F]+:[0-9a-fA-F]+:[0-9a-fA-F]+::HEAD))',

 r'(?P<a_owner>(owner:\s+[0-9a-fA-F]+:[0-9a-fA-F]+:[0-9a-fA-F]+::HEAD))',
                               '.']:
                regex = re.compile(subpattern)
                pattern = '(%s)*' % '|'.join(subpattern)
                match = re.search(pattern, line)
                print '  ', match.groupdict()

Sample output:

yy-1# python final_01.py
Traceback (most recent call last):
  File "final_01.py", line 18, in <module>
    match = re.search(pattern, line)
  File "/usr/local/lib/python2.7/re.py", line 146, in search
  File "/usr/local/lib/python2.7/re.py", line 251, in _compile
*sre_constants.error: nothing to repeat*


The code looks fine but may be there is something to do with  * , may be we
need to find a better way to escape * ?

> /tmp/final_01.py(17)<module>()
-> pattern = '(%s)*' % '|'.join(subpattern)
(Pdb) n
> /tmp/final_01.py(18)<module>()
-> match = re.search(pattern, line)
(Pdb) pattern
'((|?|P|<|B|l|o|c|k|>|(|\\|d|+|,|\\|d|+|,|\\|d|+|:|\\|d|+|)|))*'
(Pdb) n
error: error('n...repeat',)


Regards,
Ganesh


From ganesh1pal at gmail.com  Thu Apr 20 04:01:30 2017
From: ganesh1pal at gmail.com (Ganesh Pal)
Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2017 13:31:30 +0530
Subject: match.groupdict() into a single dict
In-Reply-To: <CACT3xuXk7=9rKzVVTRpds7baVxat5-VWiejKT4eGFWE1nED+2Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CACT3xuXQKnLcOJRXBtjnN16MJj13YaTrj6uCyVVVZDpnVD3eFw@mail.gmail.com>
 <89beb2f0-1652-5497-6bf9-82eb0375936c@mrabarnett.plus.com>
 <CACT3xuXk7=9rKzVVTRpds7baVxat5-VWiejKT4eGFWE1nED+2Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CACT3xuV+SZ6r7-K+2Dmr7oc-jjcw8itqBPd4A4ZC5bvMkOXjEA@mail.gmail.com>

apologies for spamming  and Sorry my bad  the solution suggested by MRAB
works fine : )

with open("/tmp/2.repo","r") as f:
     for line in f:
         for line in f:
             result = re.search(r'MSG=attempt to record(.*)LINSNAP', line)
             if result:
                subpatterns = [r'(?P<Block>(\d+,\d+,\d+:\d+))',

 r'(?P<p_owner>([0-9a-fA-F]+:[0-9a-fA-F]+:[0-9a-fA-F]+::HEAD))',

 r'(?P<a_owner>(owner:\s+[0-9a-fA-F]+:[0-9a-fA-F]+:[0-9a-fA-F]+::HEAD))',
                               '.']
                pattern = '(%s)*' % '|'.join(subpatterns)
                match = re.search(pattern, line)
                print '  ', match.groupdict()

Regards,
Ganesh


From jon+usenet at unequivocal.eu  Thu Apr 20 06:13:12 2017
From: jon+usenet at unequivocal.eu (Jon Ribbens)
Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2017 10:13:12 -0000 (UTC)
Subject: Test if Script Already Running
References: <CAAOM8FV-gV=F98KF8ks66-=Xd_TT20shyYaBuQCHq_KTm9rUew@mail.gmail.com>
 <20170420042733.GA54448@cskk.homeip.net>
 <mailman.317.1492662467.2951.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <slrnofh2jk.2ms.jon+usenet@sable.unequivocal.eu>

On 2017-04-20, Cameron Simpson <cs at zip.com.au> wrote:
> Others have pointed the way to an exact implementation.
>
> For myself, I like mkdir. It is portable. It is atomic. It fails if
> the target exists.  It works over NFS etc. It is easy.
>
>   os.mkdir('lock')
>   ... do stuff ...
>   os.rmdir('lock')

One downside to this is that if the process that 'holds the lock'
dies before it reaches the 'rmdir' then the lock becomes wedged.
With the 'flock' method, the operating system will automatically
undo the lock. Of course, depending on your application, it's possible
that this 'downside' may be a feature.


From marko at pacujo.net  Thu Apr 20 06:32:19 2017
From: marko at pacujo.net (Marko Rauhamaa)
Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2017 13:32:19 +0300
Subject: Test if Script Already Running
References: <CAAOM8FV-gV=F98KF8ks66-=Xd_TT20shyYaBuQCHq_KTm9rUew@mail.gmail.com>
 <20170420042733.GA54448@cskk.homeip.net>
 <mailman.317.1492662467.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <slrnofh2jk.2ms.jon+usenet@sable.unequivocal.eu>
Message-ID: <87y3uv5pzg.fsf@elektro.pacujo.net>

Jon Ribbens <jon+usenet at unequivocal.eu>:

> On 2017-04-20, Cameron Simpson <cs at zip.com.au> wrote:
>> For myself, I like mkdir. It is portable. It is atomic. It fails if
>> the target exists.  It works over NFS etc. It is easy.
>>
>>   os.mkdir('lock')
>>   ... do stuff ...
>>   os.rmdir('lock')
>
> One downside to this is that if the process that 'holds the lock' dies
> before it reaches the 'rmdir' then the lock becomes wedged. With the
> 'flock' method, the operating system will automatically undo the lock.
> Of course, depending on your application, it's possible that this
> 'downside' may be a feature.

Combining both:

==Begin flock.py========================================================
"""File locking for Linux, Unix and Windows

Usage:

    with FLock(pathname):
        # critical section

where pathname refers to an existing, readable file.

On Windows, FLock creates a magic directory pathname.6e35b8cda6902579
upon locking and removes it upon unlocking. If the operating system
crashes or the Python process is killed ungracefully, the lock directory
could be left behind and would have to be removed manually.
"""

import os

if os.name == 'posix':
    import fcntl

    class FLock:
        def __init__(self, pathname):
            self.f = open(pathname)

        def __enter__(self):
            self.lock()
            return None

        def __exit__(self, exc_type, exc_value, traceback):
            self.unlock()
            return False

        def lock(self):
            fcntl.flock(self.f, fcntl.LOCK_EX)

        def unlock(self):
            self.f.close()

else:
    import time

    class FLock:
        def __init__(self, pathname):
            self.pathname = pathname + ".6e35b8cda6902579"

        def __enter__(self):
            self.lock()
            return None

        def __exit__(self, exc_type, exc_value, traceback):
            self.unlock()
            return False

        def lock(self):
            while True:
                try:
                    os.mkdir(self.pathname)
                    return
                except OSError:
                    time.sleep(1)

        def unlock(self):
            os.rmdir(self.pathname)
==end flock.py==========================================================


Marko


From balglaas at dds.nl  Thu Apr 20 06:54:17 2017
From: balglaas at dds.nl (Jan van den Broek)
Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2017 10:54:17 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: Unusual reactions (Was: .Re: Using Loops to track user input)
References: <od9ri7$1ino$1@gioia.aioe.org>
Message-ID: <oda40p$1qp$1@gioia.aioe.org>

On 2017-04-20, Robert L. <No_spamming at noWhere_7073.org> wrote:

Two things:
- There's a '.' in front of "Re".
- There's no "References"-header in your messages, this may confuse some
  newsreaders.

-- 
Jan v/d Broek
balglaas at dds.nl


From rustompmody at gmail.com  Thu Apr 20 08:48:01 2017
From: rustompmody at gmail.com (Rustom Mody)
Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2017 05:48:01 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: The belief that learning is more difficult for older people (was:
 Bigotry (you win, I give up))
In-Reply-To: <mailman.314.1492654900.2951.python-list@python.org>
References: <85r30o9nnp.fsf@benfinney.id.au>
 <00d201d2b970$6e4c8530$27b23dae@sambora>
 <858tmvakey.fsf_-_@benfinney.id.au>
 <mailman.314.1492654900.2951.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <b491eb22-107b-476f-99ba-5108cf527c2e@googlegroups.com>

On Thursday, April 20, 2017 at 7:51:55 AM UTC+5:30, Ben Finney wrote:
> "Deborah Swanson"  writes:
> 
> > But this bit caught my eye because I hold the opposite opinion about
> > old people's ability to learn.
> >
> > It is a choice.
> 
> The topic is complex, and both ?It is entirely determined by your own
> choices? and ?It is in no way determined by your own choices? are false.



Received this today
========================


What is A.A.A.D.D.  ? It is              
Age Activated Attention Deficit Disorder. 

This is how it manifests:

I decide to water my garden.
As I turn on the hose in the driveway,
I look over at my car and decide it needs washing. 

As I start toward the garage,
I notice mail on the porch table that
I brought up from the mail box earlier.

I decide to go through the mail before I wash the car. 

I lay my car keys on the table,
put the junk mail in the garbage can under the table,
and notice that the can is full. 

So, I decide to put the bills back
on the table and take out the garbage first.
But then I think,
since I'm going to be near the mailbox
when I take out the garbage anyway,
I may as well pay the bills first.

I take my cheque book off the table,
and see that there is only one cheque left.

My extra cheques are in my desk in the study,
so I go inside the house to my desk where
I find the can of Coke I'd been drinking. 

I'm going to look for my cheques , 
but first I need to push the Coke aside
so that I don't accidentally knock it over.

The Coke is getting warm,
and I decide to put it in the refrigerator to keep it cold.

As I head toward the kitchen with the Coke,
a vase of flowers on the counter
catches my eye--they need water.

I put the Coke on the counter and
discover my reading glasses that
I've been searching for all morning.

I decide I better put them back on my desk,
but first I'm going to water the flowers.

I set the glasses back down on the counter,
fill a container with water and suddenly spot the TV remote.
Someone left it on the kitchen table.

I realize that tonight when we go to watch TV,
I'll be looking for the remote,
but I won't remember that it's on the kitchen table,
so I decide to put it back in the den where it belongs,
but first I'll water the flowers.

I pour some water in the flowers,
but quite a bit of it spills on the floor.

So, I set the remote back on the table,
get some towels and wipe up the spill.

Then, I head down the hall trying to
remember what I was planning to do. 

At the end of the day:

the car isn't washed

the bills aren't paid

there is a warm can of Coke sitting on the counter

the flowers don't have enough water,

there is still only 1 cheque in my cheque book,

I can't find the remote,

I can't find my glasses,

and I don't remember what I did with the car keys.

Then, when I try to figure out why nothing got done today,
I'm really baffled because I know I was busy all day,
and I'm really tired.

I realize this is a serious problem,
and I'll try to get some help for it,
but first I'll check my e-mail....

Do me a favour.
Forward this message to everyone you know,
because I don't remember whom I've sent it to.

Isn't you yet? You are young... And your day is coming!


From python at deborahswanson.net  Thu Apr 20 09:31:43 2017
From: python at deborahswanson.net (Deborah Swanson)
Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2017 06:31:43 -0700
Subject: The belief that learning is more difficult for older people (was:
 Bigotry (you win, I give up))
In-Reply-To: <b491eb22-107b-476f-99ba-5108cf527c2e@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <00f801d2b9da$73f43900$27b23dae@sambora>

Poor souls. It isn't pretty when the mind lets go. Maybe it sounds cold,
but these people did make the choice every day of most of their lives to
not bother themselves about the why of things, to not pay attention to
this, to let someone else worry about that, etc.

The sad thing is that this ad is likely for prescription drugs, which
may restore rudimentary mental function, but they won't restore your
mind. Especially if you never cultivated one to begin with.

At 65 years old, I'm surrounded by these people, many of whom I've known
all my life, and I know how they've lived.


Rustom Mody wrote, on Thursday, April 20, 2017 5:48 AM
> 
> On Thursday, April 20, 2017 at 7:51:55 AM UTC+5:30, Ben Finney wrote:
> > "Deborah Swanson"  writes:
> > 
> > > But this bit caught my eye because I hold the opposite 
> opinion about 
> > > old people's ability to learn.
> > >
> > > It is a choice.
> > 
> > The topic is complex, and both "It is entirely determined 
> by your own 
> > choices" and "It is in no way determined by your own choices" are 
> > false.
> 
> 
> 
> Received this today
> ========================
> 
> 
> What is A.A.A.D.D.  ? It is              
> Age Activated Attention Deficit Disorder. 
> 
> This is how it manifests:
> 
> I decide to water my garden.
> As I turn on the hose in the driveway,
> I look over at my car and decide it needs washing. 
> 
> As I start toward the garage,
> I notice mail on the porch table that
> I brought up from the mail box earlier.
> 
> I decide to go through the mail before I wash the car. 
> 
> I lay my car keys on the table,
> put the junk mail in the garbage can under the table,
> and notice that the can is full. 
> 
> So, I decide to put the bills back
> on the table and take out the garbage first.
> But then I think,
> since I'm going to be near the mailbox
> when I take out the garbage anyway,
> I may as well pay the bills first.
> 
> I take my cheque book off the table,
> and see that there is only one cheque left.
> 
> My extra cheques are in my desk in the study,
> so I go inside the house to my desk where
> I find the can of Coke I'd been drinking. 
> 
> I'm going to look for my cheques , 
> but first I need to push the Coke aside
> so that I don't accidentally knock it over.
> 
> The Coke is getting warm,
> and I decide to put it in the refrigerator to keep it cold.
> 
> As I head toward the kitchen with the Coke,
> a vase of flowers on the counter
> catches my eye--they need water.
> 
> I put the Coke on the counter and
> discover my reading glasses that
> I've been searching for all morning.
> 
> I decide I better put them back on my desk,
> but first I'm going to water the flowers.
> 
> I set the glasses back down on the counter,
> fill a container with water and suddenly spot the TV remote. 
> Someone left it on the kitchen table.
> 
> I realize that tonight when we go to watch TV,
> I'll be looking for the remote,
> but I won't remember that it's on the kitchen table,
> so I decide to put it back in the den where it belongs,
> but first I'll water the flowers.
> 
> I pour some water in the flowers,
> but quite a bit of it spills on the floor.
> 
> So, I set the remote back on the table,
> get some towels and wipe up the spill.
> 
> Then, I head down the hall trying to
> remember what I was planning to do. 
> 
> At the end of the day:
> 
> the car isn't washed
> 
> the bills aren't paid
> 
> there is a warm can of Coke sitting on the counter
> 
> the flowers don't have enough water,
> 
> there is still only 1 cheque in my cheque book,
> 
> I can't find the remote,
> 
> I can't find my glasses,
> 
> and I don't remember what I did with the car keys.
> 
> Then, when I try to figure out why nothing got done today,
> I'm really baffled because I know I was busy all day,
> and I'm really tired.
> 
> I realize this is a serious problem,
> and I'll try to get some help for it,
> but first I'll check my e-mail....
> 
> Do me a favour.
> Forward this message to everyone you know,
> because I don't remember whom I've sent it to.
> 
> Isn't you yet? You are young... And your day is coming!
> -- 
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
> 



From rustompmody at gmail.com  Thu Apr 20 11:25:52 2017
From: rustompmody at gmail.com (Rustom Mody)
Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2017 08:25:52 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Bigotry (you win, I give up)
In-Reply-To: <mailman.316.1492658583.2951.python-list@python.org>
References: <85r30o9nnp.fsf@benfinney.id.au>
 <00d201d2b970$6e4c8530$27b23dae@sambora>
 <CAPjBxg_Y=GNObBnpzRN890c3iWvbbaoJnK-E4_9pGGKHRgt8rA@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.316.1492658583.2951.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <94788997-2d7e-49da-9c3e-fb6debe1bc24@googlegroups.com>

On Thursday, April 20, 2017 at 5:11:58 AM UTC+5:30, Ethan Furman wrote:
> On 04/19/2017 03:58 PM, Ben Finney wrote:
> > Ethan Furman writes:
> >
> >> [?] asking that you be courteous to those who come here to discuss
> >> Python.
> >
> > On that we can agree. Let's be courteous to people here, and keep
> > discussing Python.
>

> Will you be filtering your signature lines, then?  Because you
> cannot simultaneously be courteous to someone and mock their
> beliefs.


Thanks Ethan; firstly for not taking cognisance of this ludicrous complaint
against Steven
[
No one seems to have noticed who Rurpy is defending : Ranting Rick and Bart.
Sheesh!
A rhinocerous would have gossamer skin compared to these 'gentlemen'
Sheesh? !
]
Also the obligatory Voltaire quote is: ?I disapprove of what you say, but I will 
defend to the death your right to say It?


But more importantly thank you for your polite and consistent pointing out to
Ben Finney that his religion-bashing signature lines [many of them] and his 
claims to wish this list be welcoming are way out of sync.

Its a difficult job? If you find those lines objectionable and wear your mod-hat
to act on this, maybe you are misusing your position because you personally
dont like such stuff

OTOH if you refrain from wearing your mod-hat and say nothing, 
others could also silently hurt maybe unknown to anyone

So yes its tough and I commend your efforts

Since I believe Ben's anti-religion footers are OT, irrelevant,
unnecessary and possibly hurtful to some, some further thoughts on
this?

Firstly I find some of his footers useful/funny/insightful and have on occasion
thanked him for the same.

Not the (anti)religious ones which the following elaborates on.

Personally, I am not offended but mostly only amused because the area under the triangle:
Jerusalem-Bethlehem-Mecca is about 1/1000 the area of the globe
And the implied/explicit suggestion:  Religion=Christianity, or at best Religion=Abrahamic-faiths is correspondingly
about that ratio in narrowness of perspective of what constitutes religion in full generality

In short (to me, an oriental) its just silly

But to someone else
- it could be offensive ? which is ok
  Nothing wrong in being offended!
  A big factor that backlashed into Trump as POTUS is just this that
  leftie-libbie-liars  (L?) think that their offendedness, usually at imagined trivia (see this
  thread?) is the centre of the universe
- it could be hurtful ? less ok... But still possible to cry a bit, brush it off
and get on

But it could be much worse.

Unfortunately the L? called secularism has taken away even
our language to talk of this:

If I may be permitted the one-off non-PC act of quoting the Bible there is a fairly precise and exact rendering of this principle:

The sin against God is tolerated, and the sin against the Son also. But the sin
against the holy ghost cannot be tolerated
[Mat 12:32, Mark 3:29, Luke 12:10]

In short, messing up someone's deepest faith is tantamount to the killing of the soul

And since the L? will speak up for all sorts of 'identities' real and imaginary
except people who sincerely follow (mainstream) religion, I felt called upon to say something of it.
[Number of subsets of a 6 billion set is 2^(6 billion), thats the number of identities that can be concocted]

So let me end with just briefly saying why the L? called secularism is the root of the problem

Secularism (= worldliness) divides the one world arbitrarily, high-handedly
and ignorantly into two: sacred and profane

The world is real? and profane
The other half is sacred? and unreal

This makes sanctity of anything an unreal property by definition

Hence all this mess.

If the sanctity of a human being were (1) a fact and (2) not negotiable these discussions and interminable threads would not be necessary

PS.
To be fair to Ben, the Oscar Wilde quote: ?Prayer must never be answered: if it is, it ceases to be prayer and becomes correspondence.?
does not belong (for me) in the objectionable set. OTOH it is funny, precise, and even religiously respectful in a left-handed sort of way
[And now I guess the left-handed identity has been abused? Ball in your court  (Mr.) Rurpy! Go for it!]


From mikhailwas at gmail.com  Thu Apr 20 11:44:45 2017
From: mikhailwas at gmail.com (Mikhail V)
Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2017 17:44:45 +0200
Subject: Rawest raw string literals
Message-ID: <CAE6NSRB8wAJJ-M6_C4h21SOdGatC7Deh4RTx_+abgJm7H6DykA@mail.gmail.com>

Quite often I need raw string literals for concatenating console commands.
I want to input them exactly as they are in python sources.

There is r"" string, but it is obviously not enough because e.g. this:
s = r"ffmpeg -i  "\\server-01\D\SER_Bigl.mpg" "

is not valid.

The closest I've found is triple quote literal:
s = r"""ffmpeg -i  "\\server-01\D\SER_Bigl__" """

This is what I use now, still there is problem: last quote inside the string
needs escaping or a space character before closing triple quote,
otherwise there is again an error.

What I think: why there is no some built-in function, for example like:
s = raw("ffmpeg -i  "\\server-01\D\SER_Bigl__"")

which would just need *one* quote sign in the beginning and on the end.
Would it be useful, what do you think? I think looks better than triple quote.
In the past there were quite a lot additions to string manipulation,
probably there is already something like this.


Mikhail


From rosuav at gmail.com  Thu Apr 20 11:55:52 2017
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2017 01:55:52 +1000
Subject: Rawest raw string literals
In-Reply-To: <CAE6NSRB8wAJJ-M6_C4h21SOdGatC7Deh4RTx_+abgJm7H6DykA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAE6NSRB8wAJJ-M6_C4h21SOdGatC7Deh4RTx_+abgJm7H6DykA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmrxHQXtvwq9AUVzAtgwWqtPDPKs54yHX8Uw7V0BSJS3HA@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Apr 21, 2017 at 1:44 AM, Mikhail V <mikhailwas at gmail.com> wrote:
> What I think: why there is no some built-in function, for example like:
> s = raw("ffmpeg -i  "\\server-01\D\SER_Bigl__"")
>
> which would just need *one* quote sign in the beginning and on the end.
> Would it be useful, what do you think? I think looks better than triple quote.
> In the past there were quite a lot additions to string manipulation,
> probably there is already something like this.

What would be the argument passed to this function?

ChrisA


From python at deborahswanson.net  Thu Apr 20 11:57:28 2017
From: python at deborahswanson.net (Deborah Swanson)
Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2017 08:57:28 -0700
Subject: Bigotry (you win, I give up)
In-Reply-To: <94788997-2d7e-49da-9c3e-fb6debe1bc24@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <002601d2b9ee$cffdafb0$27b23dae@sambora>

And the moral to the story is:

Don't worry. Be happy. And reach fot the stars (while still being
mindful of those around you).



From mikhailwas at gmail.com  Thu Apr 20 11:58:10 2017
From: mikhailwas at gmail.com (Mikhail V)
Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2017 17:58:10 +0200
Subject: Rawest raw string literals
In-Reply-To: <CAE6NSRB8wAJJ-M6_C4h21SOdGatC7Deh4RTx_+abgJm7H6DykA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAE6NSRB8wAJJ-M6_C4h21SOdGatC7Deh4RTx_+abgJm7H6DykA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAE6NSRCPqX1Wopzvy_c0i91nJ0r+3JnvUhkbjYUofk7pGZqMGQ@mail.gmail.com>

On 20 April 2017 at 17:44, Mikhail V <mikhailwas at gmail.com> wrote:
> Quite often I need raw string literals for concatenating console commands.
> I want to input them exactly as they are in python sources.
>
> There is r"" string, but it is obviously not enough because e.g. this:
> s = r"ffmpeg -i  "\\server-01\D\SER_Bigl.mpg" "
>
> is not valid.
>
> The closest I've found is triple quote literal:
> s = r"""ffmpeg -i  "\\server-01\D\SER_Bigl__" """
>
> This is what I use now, still there is problem: last quote inside the string
> needs escaping or a space character before closing triple quote,
> otherwise there is again an error.
>
> What I think: why there is no some built-in function, for example like:
> s = raw("ffmpeg -i  "\\server-01\D\SER_Bigl__"")
>
> which would just need *one* quote sign in the beginning and on the end.
> Would it be useful, what do you think? I think looks better than triple quote.
> In the past there were quite a lot additions to string manipulation,
> probably there is already something like this.

A function probably would not be possible to implement directly,
but probably such a syntax for example:
s = r"ffmpeg -i  "\\server-01\D\SER_Bigl.mpg""r

i.e. an opening and closing "r" particle.


From grant.b.edwards at gmail.com  Thu Apr 20 11:59:23 2017
From: grant.b.edwards at gmail.com (Grant Edwards)
Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2017 15:59:23 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: Rawest raw string literals
References: <CAE6NSRB8wAJJ-M6_C4h21SOdGatC7Deh4RTx_+abgJm7H6DykA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <odalsr$and$1@blaine.gmane.org>

On 2017-04-20, Mikhail V <mikhailwas at gmail.com> wrote:
> Quite often I need raw string literals for concatenating console commands.
> I want to input them exactly as they are in python sources.
>
> There is r"" string, but it is obviously not enough because e.g. this:
> s = r"ffmpeg -i  "\\server-01\D\SER_Bigl.mpg" "

   s = r'ffmpeg -i  "\\server-01\D\SER_Bigl.mpg" '

Does that do what you want?

-- 
Grant Edwards               grant.b.edwards        Yow! And then we could sit
                                  at               on the hoods of cars at
                              gmail.com            stop lights!



From mikhailwas at gmail.com  Thu Apr 20 12:03:22 2017
From: mikhailwas at gmail.com (Mikhail V)
Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2017 18:03:22 +0200
Subject: Rawest raw string literals
In-Reply-To: <CAPTjJmrxHQXtvwq9AUVzAtgwWqtPDPKs54yHX8Uw7V0BSJS3HA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAE6NSRB8wAJJ-M6_C4h21SOdGatC7Deh4RTx_+abgJm7H6DykA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPTjJmrxHQXtvwq9AUVzAtgwWqtPDPKs54yHX8Uw7V0BSJS3HA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAE6NSRCP2NHucbTYcXyQYaOF6moh5WoEMzXOmj-z2f-d9MYYuA@mail.gmail.com>

On 20 April 2017 at 17:55, Chris Angelico <rosuav at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Fri, Apr 21, 2017 at 1:44 AM, Mikhail V <mikhailwas at gmail.com> wrote:
>> What I think: why there is no some built-in function, for example like:
>> s = raw("ffmpeg -i  "\\server-01\D\SER_Bigl__"")
>>
>> which would just need *one* quote sign in the beginning and on the end.
>> Would it be useful, what do you think? I think looks better than triple quote.
>> In the past there were quite a lot additions to string manipulation,
>> probably there is already something like this.
>
> What would be the argument passed to this function?
>
> ChrisA


Yeah that is right, I cant imagine how this would work.
But I think you get the idea- I'd want something dedicated
to input raw strings with cute syntax and *no* escaping
at all.


Mikhail


From rosuav at gmail.com  Thu Apr 20 12:06:27 2017
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2017 02:06:27 +1000
Subject: Rawest raw string literals
In-Reply-To: <CAE6NSRCP2NHucbTYcXyQYaOF6moh5WoEMzXOmj-z2f-d9MYYuA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAE6NSRB8wAJJ-M6_C4h21SOdGatC7Deh4RTx_+abgJm7H6DykA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPTjJmrxHQXtvwq9AUVzAtgwWqtPDPKs54yHX8Uw7V0BSJS3HA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAE6NSRCP2NHucbTYcXyQYaOF6moh5WoEMzXOmj-z2f-d9MYYuA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmqtR_CwTOMdkEbmsoCBSp0DMruiK5WCaUDQ5emqGJN3LQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Apr 21, 2017 at 2:03 AM, Mikhail V <mikhailwas at gmail.com> wrote:
> On 20 April 2017 at 17:55, Chris Angelico <rosuav at gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Fri, Apr 21, 2017 at 1:44 AM, Mikhail V <mikhailwas at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> What I think: why there is no some built-in function, for example like:
>>> s = raw("ffmpeg -i  "\\server-01\D\SER_Bigl__"")
>>>
>>> which would just need *one* quote sign in the beginning and on the end.
>>> Would it be useful, what do you think? I think looks better than triple quote.
>>> In the past there were quite a lot additions to string manipulation,
>>> probably there is already something like this.
>>
>> What would be the argument passed to this function?
>>
>> ChrisA
>
>
> Yeah that is right, I cant imagine how this would work.
> But I think you get the idea- I'd want something dedicated
> to input raw strings with cute syntax and *no* escaping
> at all.

Yep. It can't be a function; it has to be a piece of language syntax.

So then the question is: what language syntax is appropriate? And
honestly, I hardly ever need this kind of thing - partly because I
wouldn't call ffmpeg this way. I'd do it like this:

cmd = ["ffmpeg", "-i", r"\\server-01\D\SER_Bigl.mpg"]

with the separate arguments as, well, separate arguments. Far less
need for double escaping that way, and you can use different escaping
rules for different arguments if you need to. (Actually, I usually use
forward slashes, so even raw string lits are unnecessary.)

ChrisA


From mikhailwas at gmail.com  Thu Apr 20 12:16:49 2017
From: mikhailwas at gmail.com (Mikhail V)
Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2017 18:16:49 +0200
Subject: Rawest raw string literals
In-Reply-To: <odalsr$and$1@blaine.gmane.org>
References: <CAE6NSRB8wAJJ-M6_C4h21SOdGatC7Deh4RTx_+abgJm7H6DykA@mail.gmail.com>
 <odalsr$and$1@blaine.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <CAE6NSRDag_y8Q+h+g-4aut60BFcyLZR82CJ-wbnQE8NdNbsw9g@mail.gmail.com>

On 20 April 2017 at 17:59, Grant Edwards <grant.b.edwards at gmail.com> wrote:
> On 2017-04-20, Mikhail V <mikhailwas at gmail.com> wrote:
>> Quite often I need raw string literals for concatenating console commands.
>> I want to input them exactly as they are in python sources.
>>
>> There is r"" string, but it is obviously not enough because e.g. this:
>> s = r"ffmpeg -i  "\\server-01\D\SER_Bigl.mpg" "
>
>    s = r'ffmpeg -i  "\\server-01\D\SER_Bigl.mpg" '
>
> Does that do what you want?
>

Yes but it still needs to watch out if there is no ' inside or vice versa
with " characters if use r"". I would like a universal solution.


From breamoreboy at gmail.com  Thu Apr 20 12:26:50 2017
From: breamoreboy at gmail.com (breamoreboy at gmail.com)
Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2017 09:26:50 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Rawest raw string literals
In-Reply-To: <mailman.325.1492703977.2951.python-list@python.org>
References: <CAE6NSRB8wAJJ-M6_C4h21SOdGatC7Deh4RTx_+abgJm7H6DykA@mail.gmail.com>
 <odalsr$and$1@blaine.gmane.org>
 <mailman.325.1492703977.2951.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <df8afabe-02e5-4821-a53a-cf1cbb350b33@googlegroups.com>

On Thursday, April 20, 2017 at 4:59:48 PM UTC+1, Grant Edwards wrote:
> On 2017-04-20, Mikhail V wrote:
> > Quite often I need raw string literals for concatenating console commands.
> > I want to input them exactly as they are in python sources.
> >
> > There is r"" string, but it is obviously not enough because e.g. this:
> > s = r"ffmpeg -i  "\\server-01\D\SER_Bigl.mpg" "
> 
>    s = r'ffmpeg -i  "\\server-01\D\SER_Bigl.mpg" '
> 
> Does that do what you want?
> 
> -- 
> Grant Edwards               grant.b.edwards        Yow! And then we could sit
>                                   at               on the hoods of cars at
>                               gmail.com            stop lights!

I find this:-

s = r"ffmpeg -i  '\\server-01\D\SER_Bigl.mpg' "

vastly superior.

Kindest regards.

Mark Lawrence.


From rosuav at gmail.com  Thu Apr 20 12:33:56 2017
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2017 02:33:56 +1000
Subject: Rawest raw string literals
In-Reply-To: <CAE6NSRDag_y8Q+h+g-4aut60BFcyLZR82CJ-wbnQE8NdNbsw9g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAE6NSRB8wAJJ-M6_C4h21SOdGatC7Deh4RTx_+abgJm7H6DykA@mail.gmail.com>
 <odalsr$and$1@blaine.gmane.org>
 <CAE6NSRDag_y8Q+h+g-4aut60BFcyLZR82CJ-wbnQE8NdNbsw9g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmrF8Px-1ijN_jb4QT-=T63VnspLicry2FM82WxBwsH0Lg@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Apr 21, 2017 at 2:16 AM, Mikhail V <mikhailwas at gmail.com> wrote:
> On 20 April 2017 at 17:59, Grant Edwards <grant.b.edwards at gmail.com> wrote:
>> On 2017-04-20, Mikhail V <mikhailwas at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Quite often I need raw string literals for concatenating console commands.
>>> I want to input them exactly as they are in python sources.
>>>
>>> There is r"" string, but it is obviously not enough because e.g. this:
>>> s = r"ffmpeg -i  "\\server-01\D\SER_Bigl.mpg" "
>>
>>    s = r'ffmpeg -i  "\\server-01\D\SER_Bigl.mpg" '
>>
>> Does that do what you want?
>>
>
> Yes but it still needs to watch out if there is no ' inside or vice versa
> with " characters if use r"". I would like a universal solution.

There's no universal solution, by definition. The nearest you'll get
is something like the PostgreSQL "dollar string":

$SomeTag$any text$SomeTag$

You can choose any tag you like for SomeTag and it'll match only the
corresponding tag, so this can be nested. But it's long and ugly,
especially when you don't need to actually nest it.

Python is not a shell scripting language, and trying to treat it as
one is usually going to get you into tangles like this. Much better,
IMO, is to treat Python as a scripting language, where higher-level
constructs like lists are the norm.

ChrisA


From grant.b.edwards at gmail.com  Thu Apr 20 12:40:21 2017
From: grant.b.edwards at gmail.com (Grant Edwards)
Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2017 16:40:21 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: Rawest raw string literals
References: <CAE6NSRB8wAJJ-M6_C4h21SOdGatC7Deh4RTx_+abgJm7H6DykA@mail.gmail.com>
 <odalsr$and$1@blaine.gmane.org>
 <CAE6NSRDag_y8Q+h+g-4aut60BFcyLZR82CJ-wbnQE8NdNbsw9g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <odao9l$jh3$1@blaine.gmane.org>

On 2017-04-20, Mikhail V <mikhailwas at gmail.com> wrote:
> On 20 April 2017 at 17:59, Grant Edwards <grant.b.edwards at gmail.com> wrote:
>> On 2017-04-20, Mikhail V <mikhailwas at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Quite often I need raw string literals for concatenating console commands.
>>> I want to input them exactly as they are in python sources.
>>>
>>> There is r"" string, but it is obviously not enough because e.g. this:
>>> s = r"ffmpeg -i  "\\server-01\D\SER_Bigl.mpg" "
>>
>>    s = r'ffmpeg -i  "\\server-01\D\SER_Bigl.mpg" '
>>
>> Does that do what you want?
>
> Yes but it still needs to watch out if there is no ' inside or vice
> versa with " characters if use r"". I would like a universal
> solution.

IOW, you want something that just reads your mind.

How can there exist a "universal solution" even in theory?

There has to be some sort of "end of literal" terminator character
sequence.  That means there has to be some sort of escaping mechanism
when that "end of literal" sequence appears in the literal itself.

-- 
Grant Edwards               grant.b.edwards        Yow! I brought my BOWLING
                                  at               BALL -- and some DRUGS!!
                              gmail.com            



From grant.b.edwards at gmail.com  Thu Apr 20 12:41:50 2017
From: grant.b.edwards at gmail.com (Grant Edwards)
Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2017 16:41:50 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: Rawest raw string literals
References: <CAE6NSRB8wAJJ-M6_C4h21SOdGatC7Deh4RTx_+abgJm7H6DykA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAE6NSRCPqX1Wopzvy_c0i91nJ0r+3JnvUhkbjYUofk7pGZqMGQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <odaoce$jh3$2@blaine.gmane.org>

On 2017-04-20, Mikhail V <mikhailwas at gmail.com> wrote:
> On 20 April 2017 at 17:44, Mikhail V <mikhailwas at gmail.com> wrote:
>> Quite often I need raw string literals for concatenating console commands.
>> I want to input them exactly as they are in python sources.
>>
>> There is r"" string, but it is obviously not enough because e.g. this:
>> s = r"ffmpeg -i  "\\server-01\D\SER_Bigl.mpg" "
>>
>> is not valid.
>>
>> The closest I've found is triple quote literal:
>> s = r"""ffmpeg -i  "\\server-01\D\SER_Bigl__" """
>>
>> This is what I use now, still there is problem: last quote inside the string
>> needs escaping or a space character before closing triple quote,
>> otherwise there is again an error.
>>
>> What I think: why there is no some built-in function, for example like:
>> s = raw("ffmpeg -i  "\\server-01\D\SER_Bigl__"")
>>
>> which would just need *one* quote sign in the beginning and on the end.
>> Would it be useful, what do you think? I think looks better than triple quote.
>> In the past there were quite a lot additions to string manipulation,
>> probably there is already something like this.
>
> A function probably would not be possible to implement directly,
> but probably such a syntax for example:
> s = r"ffmpeg -i  "\\server-01\D\SER_Bigl.mpg""r
>
> i.e. an opening and closing "r" particle.

What do you do when the sting '"r' appears in the literal?

All you've done is change the literal terminating character sequence.
You still have to have a mechanism to escape it.

-- 
Grant Edwards               grant.b.edwards        Yow! World War Three can
                                  at               be averted by adherence
                              gmail.com            to a strictly enforced
                                                   dress code!



From ethan at stoneleaf.us  Thu Apr 20 13:20:04 2017
From: ethan at stoneleaf.us (Ethan Furman)
Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2017 10:20:04 -0700
Subject: [Python-ideas] Callable Enum values
In-Reply-To: <CAEQ_Tvfe1NhMTJMOs9=Yt+7APWG=pqV7nb9kbbFd--q+OWpT5g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAEQ_TvdKQk4PW9zvZ8_QmeKyKF0w6i-W4r80ssdnVYeKXs53Sw@mail.gmail.com>
 <20170416082431.GL9464@ando.pearwood.info> <58F3B48A.2090305@stoneleaf.us>
 <CAEQ_Tvfe1NhMTJMOs9=Yt+7APWG=pqV7nb9kbbFd--q+OWpT5g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <58F8EDC4.4060704@stoneleaf.us>

[redirecting back to the list]

On 04/19/2017 11:15 PM, Stephan Hoyer wrote:
> Ethan and Steven,
>
> Thanks for your feedback on this one. I agree that it probably doesn't make sense for the standard library.
>
> I'm still not really happy with any of the standard approaches for choosing a function based on an enum value -- they
> all seem pretty verbose/ugly -- but clearly I'm bothered by this more than most, and the standard library is not a good
> place for novel solutions.

I'm curious, what did you find ugly with:

     class TestEnum(CallableEnum):

          @enum
          def hello(text):
              "a pleasant greeting"
              print('hello,', text)

          @enum
          def goodbye(text):
              print('goodbye,', text)

--
~Ethan~


From rosuav at gmail.com  Thu Apr 20 13:27:04 2017
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2017 03:27:04 +1000
Subject: Rawest raw string literals
In-Reply-To: <df8afabe-02e5-4821-a53a-cf1cbb350b33@googlegroups.com>
References: <CAE6NSRB8wAJJ-M6_C4h21SOdGatC7Deh4RTx_+abgJm7H6DykA@mail.gmail.com>
 <odalsr$and$1@blaine.gmane.org>
 <mailman.325.1492703977.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <df8afabe-02e5-4821-a53a-cf1cbb350b33@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmpS=4XVMTwL-T2MUG5RCKuM=A+dQJ2yDXYM4d9Ahf_Giw@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Apr 21, 2017 at 2:26 AM,  <breamoreboy at gmail.com> wrote:
> I find this:-
>
> s = r"ffmpeg -i  '\\server-01\D\SER_Bigl.mpg' "
>
> vastly superior.

It's semantically different though. I don't know whether single quotes
are valid in that context, on Windows.

ChrisA


From steve+python at pearwood.info  Thu Apr 20 13:40:05 2017
From: steve+python at pearwood.info (Steve D'Aprano)
Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2017 03:40:05 +1000
Subject: [Python-ideas] Callable Enum values
References: <CAEQ_TvdKQk4PW9zvZ8_QmeKyKF0w6i-W4r80ssdnVYeKXs53Sw@mail.gmail.com>
 <20170416082431.GL9464@ando.pearwood.info> <58F3B48A.2090305@stoneleaf.us>
 <CAEQ_Tvfe1NhMTJMOs9=Yt+7APWG=pqV7nb9kbbFd--q+OWpT5g@mail.gmail.com>
 <58F8EDC4.4060704@stoneleaf.us>
 <mailman.333.1492708782.2951.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <58f8f276$0$1586$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>

On Fri, 21 Apr 2017 03:20 am, Ethan Furman wrote:

> [redirecting back to the list]


Possibly the wrong list? This isn't Python-Ideas.



-- 
Steve
?Cheer up,? they said, ?things could be worse.? So I cheered up, and sure
enough, things got worse.



From ethan at stoneleaf.us  Thu Apr 20 13:59:25 2017
From: ethan at stoneleaf.us (Ethan Furman)
Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2017 10:59:25 -0700
Subject: [Python-ideas] Callable Enum values
In-Reply-To: <58f8f276$0$1586$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
References: <CAEQ_TvdKQk4PW9zvZ8_QmeKyKF0w6i-W4r80ssdnVYeKXs53Sw@mail.gmail.com>
 <20170416082431.GL9464@ando.pearwood.info> <58F3B48A.2090305@stoneleaf.us>
 <CAEQ_Tvfe1NhMTJMOs9=Yt+7APWG=pqV7nb9kbbFd--q+OWpT5g@mail.gmail.com>
 <58F8EDC4.4060704@stoneleaf.us>
 <mailman.333.1492708782.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <58f8f276$0$1586$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
Message-ID: <58F8F6FD.1010901@stoneleaf.us>

On 04/20/2017 10:40 AM, Steve D'Aprano wrote:
> On Fri, 21 Apr 2017 03:20 am, Ethan Furman wrote:

>> [redirecting back to the list]

> Possibly the wrong list? This isn't Python-Ideas.

Woops!  Thanks.

--
~Ethan~



From jeanmichel at sequans.com  Thu Apr 20 14:11:08 2017
From: jeanmichel at sequans.com (jmp)
Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2017 20:11:08 +0200
Subject: Bigotry and hate speech on the python mailing list
In-Reply-To: <58F56247.5030905@stoneleaf.us>
References: <314147001.1421155.1492382990025.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
 <314147001.1421155.1492382990025@mail.yahoo.com>
 <mailman.234.1492420307.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <87pogahibl.fsf@nightsong.com> <85h91mbrmh.fsf@benfinney.id.au>
 <58F56247.5030905@stoneleaf.us>
Message-ID: <odatjl$80p$1@blaine.gmane.org>

On 04/18/2017 02:48 AM, Ethan Furman wrote:
> On 04/17/2017 03:23 PM, Ben Finney wrote:
>> So I will continue to treat all those topics equally: peripheral
>> comments on beliefs are just part of respectful human discourse, so long
>> as I'm respectful of the people who may hold such beliefs.
>
> So you're okay with respectfully making people of faith feel unwelcome?
>
> --
> ~Ethan~

I don't like signatures in general because I think it's an unsolicited 
statement of one's opinion, but whenever I meet one I don't agree with, 
I don't feel suddenly unwelcome.

However I fully support Ben's line of defense, people are worthy of 
respect, ideas not necessarily.

Whenever I'm saying anything stupid about python, I expect this list to 
react immediately, showing me how wrong I am. And usually this list 
delivers :) and I never felt disrespected...

cheers,

jm




From tjreedy at udel.edu  Thu Apr 20 14:12:05 2017
From: tjreedy at udel.edu (Terry Reedy)
Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2017 14:12:05 -0400
Subject: How to obtain an up-to-date document of tkinter
In-Reply-To: <od9ner$nim$1@news.albasani.net>
References: <od8u7u$qu$1@news.albasani.net>
 <ddb6edfb-7203-45aa-9514-7cbead28e9a4@googlegroups.com>
 <od9ner$nim$1@news.albasani.net>
Message-ID: <odatlf$crr$1@blaine.gmane.org>

On 4/20/2017 3:19 AM, Mok-Kong Shen wrote:
> Am 20.04.2017 um 02:16 schrieb breamoreboy at gmail.com:
>> On Thursday, April 20, 2017 at 1:09:45 AM UTC+1, Mok-Kong Shen wrote:
>>> How could one obtain an up-to-date document of tkinter. I ask this
>>> question because apparently there are stuffs of tkinter that
>>> worked in Python 3.5 but no longer in Python 3.6.1.
> 
>>
>> https://docs.python.org/3/library/tkinter.html
>>
>> Can you please state what worked in 3.5 but doesn't in 3.6?
> 
> Yes. In Python V.3.5, I simply had the declaration:
> 
> from tkinter import *
> and thereafter I could use in code lines e.g.:
> 
> messagebox.showerror(........)

That was not tkinter behavior.  And it was not the behavior in 2.x.

The above only worked (in 3.x) when running from IDLE, as an undesirable 
side-effect of imports made by IDLE's run.py before running user code. 
It did not work when running with Python directly, and should not have 
according to the language definition.  It was a bug in IDLE that I fixed 
for 3.5.3 (just checked), and 3.6.0.  See
https://bugs.python.org/issue25507
for an explanation.

> However, in Python V.3.6.1,

and 3.6.0 and 3.5.3

> I have to have the declaration: 
> from tkinter import *
> import tkinter.messagebox

as is normal for subpackages

> and thereafter have to use:
> 
> tkinter.messagebox.showerror(........)

or

from tkinter import messagebox
messagebox.showerror(...)

or even

from tkinter.messagebox import showerror
showerror(...)

-- 
Terry Jan Reedy



From rurpy at yahoo.com  Thu Apr 20 14:21:54 2017
From: rurpy at yahoo.com (Rurpy)
Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2017 18:21:54 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: Bigotry (you win, I give up)
References: <1318872922.711199.1492712514007.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <1318872922.711199.1492712514007@mail.yahoo.com>

On 04/19/2017 08:27 PM, Ben Finney wrote:
> Rurpy via Python-list <python-list at python.org> writes:
> 
>> You and Chris refused to find any fault with the use of the two
>> stereotypes under discussion one of which was "unable-to-learn old
>> people".
> 
> I expressed absolutely nothing on that topic, so I didn't ?refuse to
> find any fault?. To claim ?you said that is okay? is a bald untruth, I
> said no such thing.
> 
> You are pointing to *absence of a statement* on a topic and claiming
> that it is a ?refusal to find any fault?.

Rereading your post, I agree, you did not say anything at all about
the old-people-cant-learn stereotype.

So I apologize for saying you were ok with that.

> By that logic, you have also ?refused to find fault with? my neighbour's
> mistreatment of their child. How horrible of you!

No, not by that logic at all.  Never once did you mention your
neighbor or their child in the thread offering me the opportunity
to comment.  I mentioned both stereotypes in every post I made 
(at least where I mentioned either one explicitly).

> Except, that's not a claim I would make of you. I'll thank you not to do
> the same of others.

Yes, I will try to be more careful in the future.

So at this point, you made a single attempt to claim there was 
no stereotyping based on national origin, a claim I refuted here [*1]
and perhaps more clearly here [*2] neither of which there was a reply to.

And you explicitly acknowledge effectively a "no comment" response 
regarding an offensive a stereotype based on age?  Is that a fair 
statement?

So is it not fair to conclude that bigotry through the use of 
stereotypes in contravention of the CoC/Diversity statement is ok
here at least under some circumstances:

 * When the offender is a frequent or popular participant
 * When the stereotype agrees with a prejudice of most of participants
   here.

I repeat what I said in my first post [*3]:

  "if you are going to have a CoC, it must be applied even-handedly."

----
[*1] https://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-list/2017-April/721281.html
[*2] https://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-list/2017-April/721388.html
[*3] https://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-list/2017-April/721233.html


From rurpy at yahoo.com  Thu Apr 20 14:24:35 2017
From: rurpy at yahoo.com (Rurpy)
Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2017 18:24:35 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: Bigotry (you win, I give up)
References: <1107273645.713601.1492712675921.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <1107273645.713601.1492712675921@mail.yahoo.com>

On 04/20/2017 09:25 AM, Rustom Mody wrote:
>[...]
> No one seems to have noticed who Rurpy is defending : Ranting Rick and Bart.
> Sheesh!
> A rhinocerous would have gossamer skin compared to these 'gentlemen'
> Sheesh? !

You are mistaken.  I am not defending Rick or Bart both of whom I am 
well aware are capable of speaking for themselves.

As I said in my first post, 
  "if you are going to have a CoC, it must be applied even-handedly."

> Also the obligatory Voltaire quote is: ?I disapprove of what you say, but I will 
> defend to the death your right to say It?

As I said (not that I am comparing myself to Voltaire)

| This is why you cannot create a forum where no offense is given 
| to anyone.  The best you can try to do is try to find some *tradeoff*
| that *balances* freedom of expression and offense.

If you think the current balance should be changed, fine.

My point is simply that whatever balance is chosen, it should apply
to all participants equally.


From rurpy at yahoo.com  Thu Apr 20 14:28:48 2017
From: rurpy at yahoo.com (Rurpy)
Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2017 18:28:48 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: Bigotry and hate speech on the python mailing list
References: <458345371.697073.1492712928720.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <458345371.697073.1492712928720@mail.yahoo.com>

On 04/17/2017 03:39 AM, Marko Rauhamaa wrote:
>[...]

I meant to respond to this earlier but forgot to.  I'll respond
to the following part now since there seems to be some confusion
about my motives/intent.

> In my experience, the bar for banning participants is pretty high, and
> rightly so. Careless statements, insults or bigotry haven't been enough,
> but repeated, personal harassment of an individual have resulted in
> action.

I agree it should be high.  I did not ask for or expect any banning 
to occur and would oppose any such a proposal.  However, a public
note that use of such stereotypes are offensive and not consistent 
with the PSFs CoC/Diversity statement, a friendly reminder that the 
community frowns of that kind of expression regardless of the status 
of the person who made it, would be help maintain a common standard 
of posting decency.


From eryksun at gmail.com  Thu Apr 20 14:41:52 2017
From: eryksun at gmail.com (eryk sun)
Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2017 18:41:52 +0000
Subject: Rawest raw string literals
In-Reply-To: <CAPTjJmpS=4XVMTwL-T2MUG5RCKuM=A+dQJ2yDXYM4d9Ahf_Giw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAE6NSRB8wAJJ-M6_C4h21SOdGatC7Deh4RTx_+abgJm7H6DykA@mail.gmail.com>
 <odalsr$and$1@blaine.gmane.org>
 <mailman.325.1492703977.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <df8afabe-02e5-4821-a53a-cf1cbb350b33@googlegroups.com>
 <CAPTjJmpS=4XVMTwL-T2MUG5RCKuM=A+dQJ2yDXYM4d9Ahf_Giw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CACL+1atmY8dmSPz=Y9BR=4g4Vruc-crnCV+o_BdNZ1wPE1fUwQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Apr 20, 2017 at 5:27 PM, Chris Angelico <rosuav at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Fri, Apr 21, 2017 at 2:26 AM,  <breamoreboy at gmail.com> wrote:
>> I find this:-
>>
>> s = r"ffmpeg -i  '\\server-01\D\SER_Bigl.mpg' "
>>
>> vastly superior.
>
> It's semantically different though. I don't know whether single quotes
> are valid in that context, on Windows.

On Windows, whether forward slash can be used as a path separator and
whether single quotes escape spaces and special characters depends on
the programs involved.

If you use the lpApplicationName parameter of CreateProcess (i.e.
`executable` for Popen), the system doesn't have to look at the
command line. Otherwise if the path of the executable in the command
line contains spaces, it needs to be quoted using double quotes;
single quotes have no special significance. If it has to search for
the executable, it calls SearchPath with the API's executable search
path (i.e. the directory of the calling application, the current
directory [in legacy mode], system directories, plus the PATH
environment variable) and .EXE as the optional file extension to
append.

Beyond that, the application can implement any command-line parsing
rules. In practice most programs use the CRT's argv parameter from the
`[w]main` entry point. Microsoft's CRT delimits arguments using
spaces; quotes arguments using double quotes; and escapes double
quotes using backslash [1].

If you're using the cmd.exe shell to run this, spaces and special
characters are escaped with double quotes, or with '^' outside of
quotes - except there's no way to completely escape "%" in a cmd.exe
command line (in a batch script, percent can be escaped by doubling it
as %%). If quoted, the path to the executable can use forward slash as
a path delimiter. cmd.exe implements its own custom search for the
executable, which includes the current directory (in legacy mode) and
PATH. It also tries appending all of the extensions in PATHEXT instead
of just .EXE. Since it uses the lpApplicationName parameter when it
calls CreateProcess, the system doesn't have to re-parse the command
line to locate the executable.

[1]: http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/17w5ykft.aspx


From arthurhavlicek at gmail.com  Thu Apr 20 14:57:28 2017
From: arthurhavlicek at gmail.com (Arthur Havlicek)
Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2017 20:57:28 +0200
Subject: Rawest raw string literals
In-Reply-To: <CAE6NSRCP2NHucbTYcXyQYaOF6moh5WoEMzXOmj-z2f-d9MYYuA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAE6NSRB8wAJJ-M6_C4h21SOdGatC7Deh4RTx_+abgJm7H6DykA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPTjJmrxHQXtvwq9AUVzAtgwWqtPDPKs54yHX8Uw7V0BSJS3HA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAE6NSRCP2NHucbTYcXyQYaOF6moh5WoEMzXOmj-z2f-d9MYYuA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1f00c14d-b7b6-7277-1bf2-1071d05d0257@gmail.com>

No escaping is not something possible, in your suggested syntax ") is 
ambigous. E.g. raw("abcd")") is ambigous.

Any sequence delimited string involves escaping, the only thing that 
wouldnt would be size-defined strings but they are impractical.

Le 20/04/2017 ? 18:03, Mikhail V a ?crit :
> On 20 April 2017 at 17:55, Chris Angelico <rosuav at gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Fri, Apr 21, 2017 at 1:44 AM, Mikhail V <mikhailwas at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> What I think: why there is no some built-in function, for example like:
>>> s = raw("ffmpeg -i  "\\server-01\D\SER_Bigl__"")
>>>
>>> which would just need *one* quote sign in the beginning and on the end.
>>> Would it be useful, what do you think? I think looks better than triple quote.
>>> In the past there were quite a lot additions to string manipulation,
>>> probably there is already something like this.
>> What would be the argument passed to this function?
>>
>> ChrisA
>
> Yeah that is right, I cant imagine how this would work.
> But I think you get the idea- I'd want something dedicated
> to input raw strings with cute syntax and *no* escaping
> at all.
>
>
> Mikhail



From python at mrabarnett.plus.com  Thu Apr 20 14:59:40 2017
From: python at mrabarnett.plus.com (MRAB)
Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2017 19:59:40 +0100
Subject: Rawest raw string literals
In-Reply-To: <odao9l$jh3$1@blaine.gmane.org>
References: <CAE6NSRB8wAJJ-M6_C4h21SOdGatC7Deh4RTx_+abgJm7H6DykA@mail.gmail.com>
 <odalsr$and$1@blaine.gmane.org>
 <CAE6NSRDag_y8Q+h+g-4aut60BFcyLZR82CJ-wbnQE8NdNbsw9g@mail.gmail.com>
 <odao9l$jh3$1@blaine.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <cd9814f9-5a98-95af-ce72-3f0f9620d4ee@mrabarnett.plus.com>

On 2017-04-20 17:40, Grant Edwards wrote:
> On 2017-04-20, Mikhail V <mikhailwas at gmail.com> wrote:
>> On 20 April 2017 at 17:59, Grant Edwards <grant.b.edwards at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> On 2017-04-20, Mikhail V <mikhailwas at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> Quite often I need raw string literals for concatenating console commands.
>>>> I want to input them exactly as they are in python sources.
>>>>
>>>> There is r"" string, but it is obviously not enough because e.g. this:
>>>> s = r"ffmpeg -i  "\\server-01\D\SER_Bigl.mpg" "
>>>
>>>    s = r'ffmpeg -i  "\\server-01\D\SER_Bigl.mpg" '
>>>
>>> Does that do what you want?
>>
>> Yes but it still needs to watch out if there is no ' inside or vice
>> versa with " characters if use r"". I would like a universal
>> solution.
> 
> IOW, you want something that just reads your mind.
> 
> How can there exist a "universal solution" even in theory?
> 
> There has to be some sort of "end of literal" terminator character
> sequence.  That means there has to be some sort of escaping mechanism
> when that "end of literal" sequence appears in the literal itself.
> 
There _is_ a "universal solution"; it's called a Hollerith constant. :-)


From skip.montanaro at gmail.com  Thu Apr 20 15:41:51 2017
From: skip.montanaro at gmail.com (Skip Montanaro)
Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2017 14:41:51 -0500
Subject: Metaclass conundrum - binding value from an outer scope
Message-ID: <CANc-5Uxh9zBzW3yDYb0DVrb_XHXwLm9-hkt4O1k79dWbeo4bGQ@mail.gmail.com>

For various reasons, I have a class which delegates much functionality to a
singleton instance of another class (exposed by pybind11) instead of
inheriting from that class. So, the construction looks like this (this is
in Python 2.7):

from someothermodule import SomeOtherClass as _SomeOtherClass

class SomeClass(object):
    _instance = None

    def __init__(self):
        if self.__class__._instance is None:
            self._instance = _SomeOtherClass.instance()

    def __getattr__(self, key):
        return getattr(self._instance, key)

    ... and so on ...

If someone tries help(SomeClass) or dir(SomeClass) today, none of the
attributes or docstrings defined in SomeOtherClass are shown. It was almost
a straightforward exercise to write a metaclass which defines methods on
SomeClass which delegate to the underlying method on SomeOtherClass.

My problem is evaluating the return value of getattr(SomeOtherClass, attr)
immediately. The code in __new__ looks like this (somewhat abbreviated, but
only lightly):

class SomeMeta(type):
    def __new__(cls, name, parents, dct):
        for a in dir(SomeOtherClass):
            if a[0] == "_": continue
            underlying = getattr(SomeOtherClass, a)
            def _meth(self, *args):
                return underlying(self._instance, *args)
            _meth.__doc__ = underlying.__doc__
            dct[a] = _meth
        return super(SomeMeta, cls).__new__(cls, name, parents, dct)

(Hopefully the indentation is correct. I have no Emacs on this stupid
Windows machine, so had to actually count my spaces.)

Suppose SomeOtherClass has methods m1, m2, and m3, processed in that order
coming out of the dir() call. All calls to SomeClass.m1, SomeClass.m2 and
SomeClass.m3 will wind up calling SomeOtherClass.m3, because the variable
"underlying" is evaluated late. I need it to be evaluated early (at the
time _meth is defined), when it has the value corresponding to attributes
"m1", "m2", or "m3". Thinking about it for a minute or two, I thought
functools.partial() might save my bacon, but that only partially applies
arguments. It won't work to bind the function name. I thought I might be
able to use it like this:

def _meth(self, underlying=None, *args):
    return underlying(...)

then assign a partial function object to the dictionary:

dct[a] = functools.partial(_meth, underlying=underlying)

but that didn't seem to work (e.g., calling m1(1000) complained that int
objects have no _instance attribute, so clearly self was not getting set
properly), and it changes the runtime interface of the method (so it would
look different to people using SomeClass). Maybe I need to construct the
actual function assigned to dct[a] using types.FunctionType?

There's bound to be a way to do this, and I'm almost certainly going to
:dopeslap: myself when it's revealed, but I'm stuck on this. Any ideas?

Thx,

Skip


From ben+python at benfinney.id.au  Thu Apr 20 15:46:29 2017
From: ben+python at benfinney.id.au (Ben Finney)
Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2017 05:46:29 +1000
Subject: Bigotry (you win, I give up)
References: <1318872922.711199.1492712514007.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
 <1318872922.711199.1492712514007@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <85vapy9816.fsf@benfinney.id.au>

Like most people here, I think this thread has long ago served whatever
usefulness it will have. I'm not interested in continuing it.

I'll just respond to some direct questions, but don't take any lack of
response on particular points as agreement.

Rurpy via Python-list <python-list at python.org> writes:

> Rereading your post, I agree, you did not say anything at all about
> the old-people-cant-learn stereotype.
>
> So I apologize for saying you were ok with that.

Thank you, apology accepted.

> So at this point, you made a single attempt to claim there was no
> stereotyping based on national origin, a claim I refuted here [*1] and
> perhaps more clearly here [*2] neither of which there was a reply to.

And now we've both stated our cases, and others can judge the merits.
This particular debate isn't one I'm interested in pursuing further.

> And you explicitly acknowledge effectively a "no comment" response
> regarding an offensive a stereotype based on age? Is that a fair
> statement?

No. Simply not responding at all, since the charge was not even
addressed to me.

I am not obliged to address every point of every post, and the absence
of comment on any particular point is not generally to be read as full
assent.

We have to focus our responses, or they become even more lengthy and
unreadable than has already shown to be the case. That necessarily means
not responding to every point, even at the cost of omitting an objection
we might like to make.

>   "if you are going to have a CoC, it must be applied even-handedly."

I agree entirely with that.

-- 
 \        ?If the arguments in favor of atheism upset you, explain why |
  `\        they?re wrong. If you can?t do that, that?s your problem.? |
_o__)                                     ?Amanda Marcotte, 2015-02-13 |
Ben Finney



From grant.b.edwards at gmail.com  Thu Apr 20 16:01:12 2017
From: grant.b.edwards at gmail.com (Grant Edwards)
Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2017 20:01:12 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: Rawest raw string literals
References: <CAE6NSRB8wAJJ-M6_C4h21SOdGatC7Deh4RTx_+abgJm7H6DykA@mail.gmail.com>
 <odalsr$and$1@blaine.gmane.org>
 <CAE6NSRDag_y8Q+h+g-4aut60BFcyLZR82CJ-wbnQE8NdNbsw9g@mail.gmail.com>
 <odao9l$jh3$1@blaine.gmane.org>
 <cd9814f9-5a98-95af-ce72-3f0f9620d4ee@mrabarnett.plus.com>
Message-ID: <odb428$k0s$1@blaine.gmane.org>

On 2017-04-20, MRAB <python at mrabarnett.plus.com> wrote:
> On 2017-04-20 17:40, Grant Edwards wrote:
>
>> There has to be some sort of "end of literal" terminator character
>> sequence.  That means there has to be some sort of escaping mechanism
>> when that "end of literal" sequence appears in the literal itself.
>> 
> There _is_ a "universal solution"; it's called a Hollerith constant. :-)

Wow, I haven't seen one of those in a _long_ time -- probably about 45
years.  I think the first FORTAN implementation I used was WATFIV,
which had just introduced the character type. But, books/classes on
FORTRAN all still covered Hollerith constants.

-- 
Grant Edwards               grant.b.edwards        Yow! Look!  A ladder!
                                  at               Maybe it leads to heaven,
                              gmail.com            or a sandwich!



From __peter__ at web.de  Thu Apr 20 16:19:45 2017
From: __peter__ at web.de (Peter Otten)
Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2017 22:19:45 +0200
Subject: Metaclass conundrum - binding value from an outer scope
References: <CANc-5Uxh9zBzW3yDYb0DVrb_XHXwLm9-hkt4O1k79dWbeo4bGQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <odb54v$uut$1@blaine.gmane.org>

Skip Montanaro wrote:

> For various reasons, I have a class which delegates much functionality to
> a singleton instance of another class (exposed by pybind11) instead of
> inheriting from that class. So, the construction looks like this (this is
> in Python 2.7):
> 
> from someothermodule import SomeOtherClass as _SomeOtherClass
> 
> class SomeClass(object):
>     _instance = None
> 
>     def __init__(self):
>         if self.__class__._instance is None:
>             self._instance = _SomeOtherClass.instance()
> 
>     def __getattr__(self, key):
>         return getattr(self._instance, key)
> 
>     ... and so on ...
> 
> If someone tries help(SomeClass) or dir(SomeClass) today, none of the
> attributes or docstrings defined in SomeOtherClass are shown.

If being helpful really is the only purpose of the metaclass you can 
implement a SomeClass.__dir__() method instead:

     def __dir__(self):
         names = dir(self._instance)
         # <snip whatever post-processing you want>
         return names         




From random832 at fastmail.com  Thu Apr 20 16:43:00 2017
From: random832 at fastmail.com (Random832)
Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2017 16:43:00 -0400
Subject: Rawest raw string literals
In-Reply-To: <odb428$k0s$1@blaine.gmane.org>
References: <CAE6NSRB8wAJJ-M6_C4h21SOdGatC7Deh4RTx_+abgJm7H6DykA@mail.gmail.com>
 <odalsr$and$1@blaine.gmane.org>
 <CAE6NSRDag_y8Q+h+g-4aut60BFcyLZR82CJ-wbnQE8NdNbsw9g@mail.gmail.com>
 <odao9l$jh3$1@blaine.gmane.org>
 <cd9814f9-5a98-95af-ce72-3f0f9620d4ee@mrabarnett.plus.com>
 <odb428$k0s$1@blaine.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <1492720980.2320.951053536.2495A291@webmail.messagingengine.com>

On Thu, Apr 20, 2017, at 16:01, Grant Edwards wrote:
> On 2017-04-20, MRAB <python at mrabarnett.plus.com> wrote:
> > There _is_ a "universal solution"; it's called a Hollerith constant. :-)
> 
> Wow, I haven't seen one of those in a _long_ time -- probably about 45
> years.  I think the first FORTAN implementation I used was WATFIV,
> which had just introduced the character type. But, books/classes on
> FORTRAN all still covered Hollerith constants.

The IMAP protocol uses a similar kind of construct (the length is
enclosed in braces)

Even ignoring the maintenance difficulty, I don't think it's possible to
syntax highlight something like that on most common editors.

The best solution I can think of is to have a text editor designed to
parse a string literal, spawn a nested editor with the unescaped
contents of that string literal, and then re-escape it back to place in
the code. If we had that, then we wouldn't even need raw strings.


From mikhailwas at gmail.com  Thu Apr 20 16:46:37 2017
From: mikhailwas at gmail.com (Mikhail V)
Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2017 22:46:37 +0200
Subject: Rawest raw string literals
In-Reply-To: <CAPTjJmpS=4XVMTwL-T2MUG5RCKuM=A+dQJ2yDXYM4d9Ahf_Giw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAE6NSRB8wAJJ-M6_C4h21SOdGatC7Deh4RTx_+abgJm7H6DykA@mail.gmail.com>
 <odalsr$and$1@blaine.gmane.org>
 <mailman.325.1492703977.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <df8afabe-02e5-4821-a53a-cf1cbb350b33@googlegroups.com>
 <CAPTjJmpS=4XVMTwL-T2MUG5RCKuM=A+dQJ2yDXYM4d9Ahf_Giw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAE6NSRDKLLQw0L_1Y8D_=w_V5vt5AiWRbDv=Ny7T5Mqa1xM7rQ@mail.gmail.com>

On 20 April 2017 at 19:27, Chris Angelico <rosuav at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Fri, Apr 21, 2017 at 2:26 AM,  <breamoreboy at gmail.com> wrote:
>> I find this:-
>>
>> s = r"ffmpeg -i  '\\server-01\D\SER_Bigl.mpg' "
>>
>> vastly superior.
>
> It's semantically different though. I don't know whether single quotes
> are valid in that context, on Windows.
>

For ffmpeg on Windows at least, both single and double quotes work equally.
So yes, if I keep the rule to use single quotes only inside commands
then I'd be fine with r"".
I simply don't like single quotes, and tend to use doble quotes
everywhere for better readability.

Well it is just somewhat unfortunate, because literals use
the quotes as a open/close tag, which are very common character in
strings. So the idea was to choose something that is not so
frequent and much less probable to appear in a string.
But the less probable it is, the more complex or ugly would the tag
become.
E.g. curly braces {} seems to be much less frequent characters
for filenames and command line arguments.


Mikhail


From lele at metapensiero.it  Thu Apr 20 16:55:19 2017
From: lele at metapensiero.it (Lele Gaifax)
Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2017 22:55:19 +0200
Subject: Metaclass conundrum - binding value from an outer scope
References: <CANc-5Uxh9zBzW3yDYb0DVrb_XHXwLm9-hkt4O1k79dWbeo4bGQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <87mvbaer48.fsf@metapensiero.it>

Skip Montanaro <skip.montanaro at gmail.com> writes:

>             underlying = getattr(SomeOtherClass, a)
>             def _meth(self, *args):
>                 return underlying(self._instance, *args)

Does

    underlying = getattr(SomeOtherClass, a)
    def _meth(self, *args, _underlying=underlying):
        return _underlying(self._instance, *args)

help?

ciao, lele.
-- 
nickname: Lele Gaifax | Quando vivr? di quello che ho pensato ieri
real: Emanuele Gaifas | comincer? ad aver paura di chi mi copia.
lele at metapensiero.it  |                 -- Fortunato Depero, 1929.



From mikhailwas at gmail.com  Thu Apr 20 17:03:37 2017
From: mikhailwas at gmail.com (Mikhail V)
Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2017 23:03:37 +0200
Subject: Rawest raw string literals
In-Reply-To: <1492720980.2320.951053536.2495A291@webmail.messagingengine.com>
References: <CAE6NSRB8wAJJ-M6_C4h21SOdGatC7Deh4RTx_+abgJm7H6DykA@mail.gmail.com>
 <odalsr$and$1@blaine.gmane.org>
 <CAE6NSRDag_y8Q+h+g-4aut60BFcyLZR82CJ-wbnQE8NdNbsw9g@mail.gmail.com>
 <odao9l$jh3$1@blaine.gmane.org>
 <cd9814f9-5a98-95af-ce72-3f0f9620d4ee@mrabarnett.plus.com>
 <odb428$k0s$1@blaine.gmane.org>
 <1492720980.2320.951053536.2495A291@webmail.messagingengine.com>
Message-ID: <CAE6NSRC6x6phsdBPWsGXjchANKHO0uLOe38AODWBgV6wox+oKA@mail.gmail.com>

On 20 April 2017 at 22:43, Random832 <random832 at fastmail.com> wrote:
> On Thu, Apr 20, 2017, at 16:01, Grant Edwards wrote:
>> On 2017-04-20, MRAB <python at mrabarnett.plus.com> wrote:
>> > There _is_ a "universal solution"; it's called a Hollerith constant. :-)
>>
>> Wow, I haven't seen one of those in a _long_ time -- probably about 45
>> years.  I think the first FORTAN implementation I used was WATFIV,
>> which had just introduced the character type. But, books/classes on
>> FORTRAN all still covered Hollerith constants.
>
> The IMAP protocol uses a similar kind of construct (the length is
> enclosed in braces)
>
> Even ignoring the maintenance difficulty, I don't think it's possible to
> syntax highlight something like that on most common editors.
>
> The best solution I can think of is to have a text editor designed to
> parse a string literal, spawn a nested editor with the unescaped
> contents of that string literal, and then re-escape it back to place in
> the code. If we had that, then we wouldn't even need raw strings.

Yes exactly, it would be cool to have such a satellite app
which can escape and unescape strings according to rules.
And which can also convert unicode literals to their ascii
analogues and back on the fly, this would very useful
for programming.
Probably it is a good idea to even include such thing
in Python package. So it would be a small standalone app
running parallel with text editor making it to copy paste strings.


Mikhail


From rosuav at gmail.com  Thu Apr 20 17:52:19 2017
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2017 07:52:19 +1000
Subject: Rawest raw string literals
In-Reply-To: <string-literals-20170420223257@ram.dialup.fu-berlin.de>
References: <CAE6NSRB8wAJJ-M6_C4h21SOdGatC7Deh4RTx_+abgJm7H6DykA@mail.gmail.com>
 <odalsr$and$1@blaine.gmane.org>
 <mailman.325.1492703977.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <df8afabe-02e5-4821-a53a-cf1cbb350b33@googlegroups.com>
 <CAPTjJmpS=4XVMTwL-T2MUG5RCKuM=A+dQJ2yDXYM4d9Ahf_Giw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAE6NSRDKLLQw0L_1Y8D_=w_V5vt5AiWRbDv=Ny7T5Mqa1xM7rQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.349.1492721201.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <string-literals-20170420223257@ram.dialup.fu-berlin.de>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmrFGVmej7kb-AELgVdaw6y8AF9-Zk_KYFPO_EkPbRf_fA@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Apr 21, 2017 at 7:37 AM, Stefan Ram <ram at zedat.fu-berlin.de> wrote:
> Mikhail V <mikhailwas at gmail.com> writes:
>>But the less probable it is, the more complex or ugly would the tag
>>become.
>>E.g. curly braces {} seems to be much less frequent characters
>>for filenames and command line arguments.
>
>   When one uses brackets to delimit string literals,
>   on even can allow /nested/ brackets to be part of
>   the string without escapes, e.g., the literal
>
> [abc[def]ghi]
>
>   can stand for the string
>
> abc[def]ghi
>
>   . Only unpaired brackets then have to be escaped
>   (and occurences of the escape symbol at the end
>   of such a string).

If you're going to use brackets like that, I'd prefer a
multi-character delimiter:

[[[abcdef]]]

But you have to be careful about the nesting, because that makes it
difficult to create a string with an imbalanced set of delimiters.
You'll end up with messy and complicated edge cases.

ChrisA


From python at mrabarnett.plus.com  Thu Apr 20 17:54:42 2017
From: python at mrabarnett.plus.com (MRAB)
Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2017 22:54:42 +0100
Subject: Rawest raw string literals
In-Reply-To: <CAE6NSRC6x6phsdBPWsGXjchANKHO0uLOe38AODWBgV6wox+oKA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAE6NSRB8wAJJ-M6_C4h21SOdGatC7Deh4RTx_+abgJm7H6DykA@mail.gmail.com>
 <odalsr$and$1@blaine.gmane.org>
 <CAE6NSRDag_y8Q+h+g-4aut60BFcyLZR82CJ-wbnQE8NdNbsw9g@mail.gmail.com>
 <odao9l$jh3$1@blaine.gmane.org>
 <cd9814f9-5a98-95af-ce72-3f0f9620d4ee@mrabarnett.plus.com>
 <odb428$k0s$1@blaine.gmane.org>
 <1492720980.2320.951053536.2495A291@webmail.messagingengine.com>
 <CAE6NSRC6x6phsdBPWsGXjchANKHO0uLOe38AODWBgV6wox+oKA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <ef85852d-6949-f633-d9ca-20bc91cf3178@mrabarnett.plus.com>

On 2017-04-20 22:03, Mikhail V wrote:
> On 20 April 2017 at 22:43, Random832 <random832 at fastmail.com> wrote:
>> On Thu, Apr 20, 2017, at 16:01, Grant Edwards wrote:
>>> On 2017-04-20, MRAB <python at mrabarnett.plus.com> wrote:
>>> > There _is_ a "universal solution"; it's called a Hollerith constant. :-)
>>>
>>> Wow, I haven't seen one of those in a _long_ time -- probably about 45
>>> years.  I think the first FORTAN implementation I used was WATFIV,
>>> which had just introduced the character type. But, books/classes on
>>> FORTRAN all still covered Hollerith constants.
>>
>> The IMAP protocol uses a similar kind of construct (the length is
>> enclosed in braces)
>>
>> Even ignoring the maintenance difficulty, I don't think it's possible to
>> syntax highlight something like that on most common editors.
>>
>> The best solution I can think of is to have a text editor designed to
>> parse a string literal, spawn a nested editor with the unescaped
>> contents of that string literal, and then re-escape it back to place in
>> the code. If we had that, then we wouldn't even need raw strings.
> 
> Yes exactly, it would be cool to have such a satellite app
> which can escape and unescape strings according to rules.
> And which can also convert unicode literals to their ascii
> analogues and back on the fly, this would very useful
> for programming.
> Probably it is a good idea to even include such thing
> in Python package. So it would be a small standalone app
> running parallel with text editor making it to copy paste strings.
> 
I'm sure it's possible in, say, Emacs.

The editor that I use (EditPad Pro) can call external tools, so I could:

1. Select the string literal (easy when it is syntax-aware, so I can 
select all of the literal with 2 keypresses).

2. Call the external tool (1 keypress), to open, say, a simple tkinter app.

3. Edit the unescaped text (unescape with ast.literal_eval, re-escape 
with 'ascii').

4. Close the external tool, and the selection is replaced.


From python.list at tim.thechases.com  Thu Apr 20 20:11:07 2017
From: python.list at tim.thechases.com (Tim Chase)
Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2017 19:11:07 -0500
Subject: Rawest raw string literals
In-Reply-To: <odao9l$jh3$1@blaine.gmane.org>
References: <CAE6NSRB8wAJJ-M6_C4h21SOdGatC7Deh4RTx_+abgJm7H6DykA@mail.gmail.com>
 <odalsr$and$1@blaine.gmane.org>
 <CAE6NSRDag_y8Q+h+g-4aut60BFcyLZR82CJ-wbnQE8NdNbsw9g@mail.gmail.com>
 <odao9l$jh3$1@blaine.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <20170420191107.6ac8210e@bigbox.christie.dr>

On 2017-04-20 16:40, Grant Edwards wrote:
> How can there exist a "universal solution" even in theory?
> 
> There has to be some sort of "end of literal" terminator character
> sequence.  That means there has to be some sort of escaping
> mechanism when that "end of literal" sequence appears in the
> literal itself.

A number of tools use a custom quote-string:

Bash:

  cat <<EOT
  "single and double" with \ and /
  EOT

Postgres:

  select $RAW$"quotes" and \ and / and stuff$RAW$


MIME:

     Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary=gc0p4Jq0M2Yt08jU534c0p
     ...
     "quotes" and \ and / and stuff 
     --gc0p4Jq0M2Yt08jU534c0p


I'm not sure it's such a great savings that it's worth adding to
Python, but it does allow one to choose a delimiter that is known
not to exist in the text.

-tkc

PS: yes, bash's does interpolate strings, so you still need to do
escaping within, but the arbitrary-user-specified-delimiter idea
still holds.






 


From python at mrabarnett.plus.com  Thu Apr 20 21:06:22 2017
From: python at mrabarnett.plus.com (MRAB)
Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2017 02:06:22 +0100
Subject: Rawest raw string literals
In-Reply-To: <20170420191107.6ac8210e@bigbox.christie.dr>
References: <CAE6NSRB8wAJJ-M6_C4h21SOdGatC7Deh4RTx_+abgJm7H6DykA@mail.gmail.com>
 <odalsr$and$1@blaine.gmane.org>
 <CAE6NSRDag_y8Q+h+g-4aut60BFcyLZR82CJ-wbnQE8NdNbsw9g@mail.gmail.com>
 <odao9l$jh3$1@blaine.gmane.org> <20170420191107.6ac8210e@bigbox.christie.dr>
Message-ID: <af334ac8-e245-327a-ca1b-4e28efeff72f@mrabarnett.plus.com>

On 2017-04-21 01:11, Tim Chase wrote:
> On 2017-04-20 16:40, Grant Edwards wrote:
>> How can there exist a "universal solution" even in theory?
>> 
>> There has to be some sort of "end of literal" terminator character
>> sequence.  That means there has to be some sort of escaping
>> mechanism when that "end of literal" sequence appears in the
>> literal itself.
> 
> A number of tools use a custom quote-string:
> 
> Bash:
> 
>    cat <<EOT
>    "single and double" with \ and /
>    EOT
> 
Perl 5 also does this.

[snip]


From rurpy at yahoo.com  Thu Apr 20 21:34:05 2017
From: rurpy at yahoo.com (Rurpy)
Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2017 01:34:05 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: Bigotry (you win, I give up)
References: <704423745.1051948.1492738445092.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <704423745.1051948.1492738445092@mail.yahoo.com>

On 04/20/2017 01:46 PM, Ben Finney wrote:
>[...]
> I am not obliged to address every point of every post, and the absence
> of comment on any particular point is not generally to be read as full
> assent.

Certainly anyone is free to choose to ignore bigotry on the list,
because one agrees with it, or does not want to oppose the poster, 
or any other reason; that is a perfectly valid individual decision.

But that does not apply to an entire community.  When members of the 
community en masse react that way, and a few even laud the bigotry,
and still no protest, that is a condemnation of a community's ethics
and pretty indisputable proof the CoC is a tool, to be dragged out 
when convenient to repress unpopular opinion or posters and ignored 
when it interferes with propagating the popular view.

>>   "if you are going to have a CoC, it must be applied even-handedly."
> 
> I agree entirely with that.

Sadly, agreement is meaningless if ignored in practice.


From jussi.piitulainen at helsinki.fi  Fri Apr 21 01:23:45 2017
From: jussi.piitulainen at helsinki.fi (Jussi Piitulainen)
Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2017 08:23:45 +0300
Subject: Rawest raw string literals
References: <CAE6NSRB8wAJJ-M6_C4h21SOdGatC7Deh4RTx_+abgJm7H6DykA@mail.gmail.com>
 <odalsr$and$1@blaine.gmane.org>
 <CAE6NSRDag_y8Q+h+g-4aut60BFcyLZR82CJ-wbnQE8NdNbsw9g@mail.gmail.com>
 <odao9l$jh3$1@blaine.gmane.org>
 <20170420191107.6ac8210e@bigbox.christie.dr>
 <mailman.354.1492733994.2951.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <lf5h91ijpum.fsf@ling.helsinki.fi>

Tim Chase writes:

> A number of tools use a custom quote-string:
>
> Bash:
>
>   cat <<EOT
>   "single and double" with \ and /
>   EOT

[snip]

> PS: yes, bash's does interpolate strings, so you still need to do
> escaping within, but the arbitrary-user-specified-delimiter idea still
> holds.

If you put any quote characters in the initial EOT, it doesn't. Quote
removal on the EOT determines the actual EOT at the end.

  cat <<"EOT"
  Not expanding any $amount here
  EOT


From No_spamming at noWhere_7073.org  Fri Apr 21 03:14:50 2017
From: No_spamming at noWhere_7073.org (Robert L.)
Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2017 07:14:50 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: .Re: scanf string in python
Message-ID: <odcbh8$1g0t$1@gioia.aioe.org>

> > I have a string which is returned by a C extension.
> >
> > mystring = '(1,2,3)'
> >
> > HOW can I read the numbers in python ?
> 
> re.findall seems the safest and easiest solution:
> 
> >>> re.findall(r'(\d+)', '(1, 2, 3)')
> ['1', '2', '3']
> >>> map(int, re.findall(r'(\d+)', '(1, 2, 3)'))
> [1, 2, 3]


'(1,2,3)'.scan(/\d+/).map &:to_i

 ===>
[1, 2, 3]

-- 
[T]he attackers tore off the woman's clothes and raped her until five others
arrived....  The new arrivals took turns having sex with her and then sodomized
her....  At gunpoint, the assailants forced the mother and son to have sex.
www.sun-sentinel.com/local/palm-beach/sfl-flpdunbar0822nbaug22-story.html


From antoon.pardon at rece.vub.ac.be  Fri Apr 21 04:11:47 2017
From: antoon.pardon at rece.vub.ac.be (Antoon Pardon)
Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2017 10:11:47 +0200
Subject: Bigotry (you win, I give up)
In-Reply-To: <94788997-2d7e-49da-9c3e-fb6debe1bc24@googlegroups.com>
References: <85r30o9nnp.fsf@benfinney.id.au>
 <00d201d2b970$6e4c8530$27b23dae@sambora>
 <CAPjBxg_Y=GNObBnpzRN890c3iWvbbaoJnK-E4_9pGGKHRgt8rA@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.316.1492658583.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <94788997-2d7e-49da-9c3e-fb6debe1bc24@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <8c5196c0-a629-2530-fc39-928ba2d2f9e7@rece.vub.ac.be>

Op 20-04-17 om 17:25 schreef Rustom Mody:
> But more importantly thank you for your polite and consistent pointing out to
> Ben Finney that his religion-bashing signature lines [many of them] and his 
> claims to wish this list be welcoming are way out of sync.

I don't know. I think a concept like welcoming is too complex, to draw such
simple conclusions. First of all we have to make a choice about the public we
want to be welcoming to. I'm rather confident we can agree we don't want to
be welcoming to bigots on this list.

Then feeling welcome is not a boolean, people can feel welcome to a different
degree and there are many factors at work. If people tend to react in a friendly
manner to there co-participants, people generally should feel welcome. A statment
in a signature that isn't addressing anyone personnaly may give rise to some
irritation but shouldn't make this list feel unwelcome to someone.

Do you think critising any idea in one's signature is enough to conclude that
this person doesn't wish this list to be welcoming?

-- 
Antoon.



From breamoreboy at gmail.com  Fri Apr 21 06:38:54 2017
From: breamoreboy at gmail.com (breamoreboy at gmail.com)
Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2017 03:38:54 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Bigotry (you win, I give up)
In-Reply-To: <mailman.357.1492765673.2951.python-list@python.org>
References: <85r30o9nnp.fsf@benfinney.id.au>
 <00d201d2b970$6e4c8530$27b23dae@sambora>
 <CAPjBxg_Y=GNObBnpzRN890c3iWvbbaoJnK-E4_9pGGKHRgt8rA@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.316.1492658583.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <94788997-2d7e-49da-9c3e-fb6debe1bc24@googlegroups.com>
 <8c5196c0-a629-2530-fc39-928ba2d2f9e7@rece.vub.ac.be>
 <mailman.357.1492765673.2951.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <9d7de28e-ad21-44e8-9f6a-517d3747beb8@googlegroups.com>

On Friday, April 21, 2017 at 10:08:08 AM UTC+1, Antoon Pardon wrote:
> Op 20-04-17 om 17:25 schreef Rustom Mody:
> > But more importantly thank you for your polite and consistent pointing out to
> > Ben Finney that his religion-bashing signature lines [many of them] and his 
> > claims to wish this list be welcoming are way out of sync.
> 
> I don't know. I think a concept like welcoming is too complex, to draw such
> simple conclusions. First of all we have to make a choice about the public we
> want to be welcoming to. I'm rather confident we can agree we don't want to
> be welcoming to bigots on this list.
> 
> Then feeling welcome is not a boolean, people can feel welcome to a different
> degree and there are many factors at work. If people tend to react in a friendly
> manner to there co-participants, people generally should feel welcome. A statment
> in a signature that isn't addressing anyone personnaly may give rise to some
> irritation but shouldn't make this list feel unwelcome to someone.
> 
> Do you think critising any idea in one's signature is enough to conclude that
> this person doesn't wish this list to be welcoming?
> 
> -- 
> Antoon.

Talking of signatures another of Robert L's beauties landed three or so hours ago.  He really is a right little charmer :-(

Kindest regards.

Mark Lawrence.


From python.list at tim.thechases.com  Fri Apr 21 08:12:24 2017
From: python.list at tim.thechases.com (Tim Chase)
Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2017 07:12:24 -0500
Subject: Rawest raw string literals
In-Reply-To: <lf5h91ijpum.fsf@ling.helsinki.fi>
References: <CAE6NSRB8wAJJ-M6_C4h21SOdGatC7Deh4RTx_+abgJm7H6DykA@mail.gmail.com>
 <odalsr$and$1@blaine.gmane.org>
 <CAE6NSRDag_y8Q+h+g-4aut60BFcyLZR82CJ-wbnQE8NdNbsw9g@mail.gmail.com>
 <odao9l$jh3$1@blaine.gmane.org>
 <20170420191107.6ac8210e@bigbox.christie.dr>
 <mailman.354.1492733994.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <lf5h91ijpum.fsf@ling.helsinki.fi>
Message-ID: <20170421071224.2f967578@bigbox.christie.dr>

On 2017-04-21 08:23, Jussi Piitulainen wrote:
> Tim Chase writes:
>> Bash:
>>   cat <<EOT
>>   "single and double" with \ and /
>>   EOT
>>
>> PS: yes, bash's does interpolate strings, so you still need to do
>> escaping within, but the arbitrary-user-specified-delimiter idea
>> still holds.
> 
> If you put any quote characters in the initial EOT, it doesn't.
> Quote removal on the EOT determines the actual EOT at the end.
> 
>   cat <<"EOT"
>   Not expanding any $amount here
>   EOT

Huh, I just tested it and you're 100% right on that.  But I just
re-read over that section of my `man bash` page and don't see
anything that stands out as detailing this.  Is there something I
missed in the docs?

Thanks for this little tip (filing away for future use)

-tkc




From jussi.piitulainen at helsinki.fi  Fri Apr 21 08:23:59 2017
From: jussi.piitulainen at helsinki.fi (Jussi Piitulainen)
Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2017 15:23:59 +0300
Subject: Rawest raw string literals
References: <CAE6NSRB8wAJJ-M6_C4h21SOdGatC7Deh4RTx_+abgJm7H6DykA@mail.gmail.com>
 <odalsr$and$1@blaine.gmane.org>
 <CAE6NSRDag_y8Q+h+g-4aut60BFcyLZR82CJ-wbnQE8NdNbsw9g@mail.gmail.com>
 <odao9l$jh3$1@blaine.gmane.org>
 <20170420191107.6ac8210e@bigbox.christie.dr>
 <mailman.354.1492733994.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <lf5h91ijpum.fsf@ling.helsinki.fi>
 <20170421071224.2f967578@bigbox.christie.dr>
 <mailman.358.1492776755.2951.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <lf58tmuj6e8.fsf@ling.helsinki.fi>

Tim Chase <python.list at tim.thechases.com> writes:

> On 2017-04-21 08:23, Jussi Piitulainen wrote:
>> Tim Chase writes:
>>> Bash:
>>>   cat <<EOT
>>>   "single and double" with \ and /
>>>   EOT
>>>
>>> PS: yes, bash's does interpolate strings, so you still need to do
>>> escaping within, but the arbitrary-user-specified-delimiter idea
>>> still holds.
>> 
>> If you put any quote characters in the initial EOT, it doesn't.
>> Quote removal on the EOT determines the actual EOT at the end.
>> 
>>   cat <<"EOT"
>>   Not expanding any $amount here
>>   EOT
>
> Huh, I just tested it and you're 100% right on that.  But I just
> re-read over that section of my `man bash` page and don't see anything
> that stands out as detailing this.  Is there something I missed in the
> docs?

It's in this snippet, yanked straight from the man page:

       The format of here-documents is:

              <<[-]word
                      here-document
              delimiter

       No  parameter expansion, command substitution, arithmetic expansion,
       or pathname expansion is performed on word.  If  any  characters  in
       word  are  quoted,  the  delimiter is the result of quote removal on
       word, and the lines in the here-document are not expanded.  If  word


From skip.montanaro at gmail.com  Fri Apr 21 08:26:52 2017
From: skip.montanaro at gmail.com (Skip Montanaro)
Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2017 07:26:52 -0500
Subject: Metaclass conundrum - binding value from an outer scope
In-Reply-To: <odb54v$uut$1@blaine.gmane.org>
References: <CANc-5Uxh9zBzW3yDYb0DVrb_XHXwLm9-hkt4O1k79dWbeo4bGQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <odb54v$uut$1@blaine.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <CANc-5UyRZUp1_D=Wka78tXZDHxE46bsgq+KLfVSG9+QHUUWeVw@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Apr 20, 2017 at 3:19 PM, Peter Otten <__peter__ at web.de> wrote:

> If being helpful really is the only purpose of the metaclass you can
> implement a SomeClass.__dir__() method instead:
>
>      def __dir__(self):
>          names = dir(self._instance)
>          # <snip whatever post-processing you want>
>          return names
>

Thanks. That would probably get me halfway home in Python 3, but appears to
have no effect in Python 2. It wouldn't solve the missing attributes in
help()/pydoc either.

Skip


From skip.montanaro at gmail.com  Fri Apr 21 08:31:41 2017
From: skip.montanaro at gmail.com (Skip Montanaro)
Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2017 07:31:41 -0500
Subject: Metaclass conundrum - binding value from an outer scope
In-Reply-To: <87mvbaer48.fsf@metapensiero.it>
References: <CANc-5Uxh9zBzW3yDYb0DVrb_XHXwLm9-hkt4O1k79dWbeo4bGQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <87mvbaer48.fsf@metapensiero.it>
Message-ID: <CANc-5UwOyvmzV2-5TeVUfDX8yCKx_wB1uqv5Yw7yo7m_e8fpiA@mail.gmail.com>

2017-04-20 15:55 GMT-05:00 Lele Gaifax <lele at metapensiero.it>:

> Does
>
>     underlying = getattr(SomeOtherClass, a)
>     def _meth(self, *args, _underlying=underlying):
>         return _underlying(self._instance, *args)
>
> help?
>

Hi, Lele. Long time no chat...

I thought of that, but with _underlying declared after *args I get a syntax
error in Python 2. If I move it in front of *args, the syntax error
disappears, but it gets interpreted as a the first argument of the method.
So if I call

obj.m1(4000)

it tries to call

4000(self._instance, *args)

Maybe functools.partial would be useful in this scenario, where I'm passing
the unbound method object to be called as a parameter. I'll have to play
around with that.

Skip


From __peter__ at web.de  Fri Apr 21 09:21:37 2017
From: __peter__ at web.de (Peter Otten)
Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2017 15:21:37 +0200
Subject: Metaclass conundrum - binding value from an outer scope
References: <CANc-5Uxh9zBzW3yDYb0DVrb_XHXwLm9-hkt4O1k79dWbeo4bGQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <odb54v$uut$1@blaine.gmane.org>
 <CANc-5UyRZUp1_D=Wka78tXZDHxE46bsgq+KLfVSG9+QHUUWeVw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <odd10s$kmv$1@blaine.gmane.org>

Skip Montanaro wrote:

> On Thu, Apr 20, 2017 at 3:19 PM, Peter Otten <__peter__ at web.de> wrote:
> 
>> If being helpful really is the only purpose of the metaclass you can
>> implement a SomeClass.__dir__() method instead:
>>
>>      def __dir__(self):
>>          names = dir(self._instance)
>>          # <snip whatever post-processing you want>
>>          return names
>>
> 
> Thanks. That would probably get me halfway home in Python 3, but appears
> to have no effect in Python 2. It wouldn't solve the missing attributes in
> help()/pydoc either.

OK, looks like I messed up. 

Another round, this time with a metaclass. As you have found partial() does 
not work as a method because it's not a descriptor (i. e. no __get__() 
method). Instead you can try a closure:

def make_method(a):
    underlying = getattr(SomeOtherClass, a)
    @functools.wraps(underlying)
    def _meth(self, *args, **kw):
        return underlying(self._instance, *args, **kw)
    return _meth

class SomeMeta(type):
    def __new__(cls, name, parents, dct):
        for a in dir(SomeOtherClass):
            if a[0] == "_": continue
            dct[a] = make_method(a)
        return super(SomeMeta, cls).__new__(cls, name, parents, dct)




From ethan at stoneleaf.us  Fri Apr 21 09:33:08 2017
From: ethan at stoneleaf.us (Ethan Furman)
Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2017 06:33:08 -0700
Subject: Bigotry (you win, I give up)
In-Reply-To: <9d7de28e-ad21-44e8-9f6a-517d3747beb8@googlegroups.com>
References: <85r30o9nnp.fsf@benfinney.id.au>
 <00d201d2b970$6e4c8530$27b23dae@sambora>
 <CAPjBxg_Y=GNObBnpzRN890c3iWvbbaoJnK-E4_9pGGKHRgt8rA@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.316.1492658583.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <94788997-2d7e-49da-9c3e-fb6debe1bc24@googlegroups.com>
 <8c5196c0-a629-2530-fc39-928ba2d2f9e7@rece.vub.ac.be>
 <mailman.357.1492765673.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <9d7de28e-ad21-44e8-9f6a-517d3747beb8@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <58FA0A14.8060904@stoneleaf.us>

On 04/21/2017 03:38 AM, breamoreboy at gmail.com wrote:

> Talking of signatures another of Robert L's beauties landed three or so hours ago.  He really is a right little charmer :-(

Not on the Python Mailing List.

--
~Ethan~



From breamoreboy at gmail.com  Fri Apr 21 10:58:02 2017
From: breamoreboy at gmail.com (breamoreboy at gmail.com)
Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2017 07:58:02 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Bigotry (you win, I give up)
In-Reply-To: <mailman.362.1492781572.2951.python-list@python.org>
References: <85r30o9nnp.fsf@benfinney.id.au>
 <00d201d2b970$6e4c8530$27b23dae@sambora>
 <CAPjBxg_Y=GNObBnpzRN890c3iWvbbaoJnK-E4_9pGGKHRgt8rA@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.316.1492658583.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <94788997-2d7e-49da-9c3e-fb6debe1bc24@googlegroups.com>
 <8c5196c0-a629-2530-fc39-928ba2d2f9e7@rece.vub.ac.be>
 <mailman.357.1492765673.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <9d7de28e-ad21-44e8-9f6a-517d3747beb8@googlegroups.com>
 <58FA0A14.8060904@stoneleaf.us>
 <mailman.362.1492781572.2951.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <d79dc4db-d2d7-4343-a3d0-afa216250585@googlegroups.com>

On Friday, April 21, 2017 at 2:33:03 PM UTC+1, Ethan Furman wrote:
> On 04/21/2017 03:38 AM, breamoreboy wrote:
> 
> > Talking of signatures another of Robert L's beauties landed three or so hours ago.  He really is a right little charmer :-(
> 
> Not on the Python Mailing List.
> 
> --
> ~Ethan~

I'm seen one message this morning via gmane.comp.python.general but that and a few more can be seen on GG.  I'm pretty thick skinned but I find the signatures completely revolting.  Keep him out please!!!

Kindest regards.

Mark Lawrence.


From harounelyaakoubi at gmail.com  Fri Apr 21 11:06:04 2017
From: harounelyaakoubi at gmail.com (harounelyaakoubi at gmail.com)
Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2017 08:06:04 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: =?UTF-8?Q?Basics_of_pythons_=F0=9F=90=8D?=
Message-ID: <17639b3e-017f-4e85-81a8-9ca91405937e@googlegroups.com>

Hey everyone, I'm willing to learn python , ant advices ? 
Thanks in advance 


From ethan at stoneleaf.us  Fri Apr 21 11:19:38 2017
From: ethan at stoneleaf.us (Ethan Furman)
Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2017 08:19:38 -0700
Subject: Bigotry (you win, I give up)
In-Reply-To: <58FA0A14.8060904@stoneleaf.us>
References: <85r30o9nnp.fsf@benfinney.id.au>
 <00d201d2b970$6e4c8530$27b23dae@sambora>
 <CAPjBxg_Y=GNObBnpzRN890c3iWvbbaoJnK-E4_9pGGKHRgt8rA@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.316.1492658583.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <94788997-2d7e-49da-9c3e-fb6debe1bc24@googlegroups.com>
 <8c5196c0-a629-2530-fc39-928ba2d2f9e7@rece.vub.ac.be>
 <mailman.357.1492765673.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <9d7de28e-ad21-44e8-9f6a-517d3747beb8@googlegroups.com>
 <58FA0A14.8060904@stoneleaf.us>
Message-ID: <58FA230A.4060107@stoneleaf.us>

On 04/21/2017 06:33 AM, Ethan Furman wrote:
> On 04/21/2017 03:38 AM, breamoreboy at gmail.com wrote:

>> Talking of signatures another of Robert L's beauties landed three or so hours ago.  He really is a right little
>> charmer :-(
>
> Not on the Python Mailing List.

I see one of them made it through.  My apologies (human error).

--
Python List Moderator



From tomuxiong at gmx.com  Fri Apr 21 12:10:10 2017
From: tomuxiong at gmx.com (Thomas Nyberg)
Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2017 09:10:10 -0700
Subject: =?UTF-8?Q?Re:_Basics_of_pythons_=f0=9f=90=8d?=
In-Reply-To: <17639b3e-017f-4e85-81a8-9ca91405937e@googlegroups.com>
References: <17639b3e-017f-4e85-81a8-9ca91405937e@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <bbdcfab2-3df2-9a3e-1c73-ddabb6cdbd1c@gmx.com>

On 04/21/2017 08:06 AM, harounelyaakoubi at gmail.com wrote:
> Hey everyone, I'm willing to learn python , ant advices ? 
> Thanks in advance 
> 
Here is a tutorial:

https://docs.python.org/3/tutorial/


From pradawalker at anderson5.net  Fri Apr 21 12:55:08 2017
From: pradawalker at anderson5.net (pradawalker at anderson5.net)
Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2017 09:55:08 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Direct Download Movies - No Download Limits - Download DivX DVD
 Movies
In-Reply-To: <0fd824d6-62cb-4f5b-bc91-274e477ae0f5@w19g2000pre.googlegroups.com>
References: <0fd824d6-62cb-4f5b-bc91-274e477ae0f5@w19g2000pre.googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <e677570c-26af-4a5c-9911-ce8fca032d15@googlegroups.com>

On Saturday, December 5, 2009 at 11:52:52 PM UTC-5, hussain dandan wrote:
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> 
> http://hollywood-moives.blogspot.com/
> http://hollywood-moives.tk

wont fast downloding movies


From sjeik_appie at hotmail.com  Fri Apr 21 14:08:10 2017
From: sjeik_appie at hotmail.com (Albert-Jan Roskam)
Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2017 18:08:10 +0000
Subject: OrderedDict with kwds
Message-ID: <AM4PR10MB148977577D9534144026FD88831A0@AM4PR10MB1489.EURPRD10.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>

For regular dicts I like to use the dict() function because the code is easier to write and read. But OrderedDict() is not equivalent to dict():
In the docstring of collections.OrderedDict it says "keyword arguments are not recommended because their insertion order is arbitrary" (https://github.com/python/cpython/blob/3.6/Lib/collections/__init__.py)

It took me while to realize that. What is the best way to use keywords to create an ordered dict, while maintaining insertion order?

Below is OrderedDict.__init__. Would the insertion order be preserved if the last line were to be replaced with:

if kwds:
    for k, v in kwds.items():
        self[k] = v
if args:
    self.__update(*args)  # no **kwds!


###
class OrderedDict(dict):
    'Dictionary that remembers insertion order'

    def __init__(*args, **kwds):
        '''Initialize an ordered dictionary.  The signature is the same as
        regular dictionaries, but keyword arguments are not recommended because
        their insertion order is arbitrary.
        '''
        if not args:
            raise TypeError("descriptor '__init__' of 'OrderedDict' object "
                            "needs an argument")
        self, *args = args
        if len(args) > 1:
            raise TypeError('expected at most 1 arguments, got %d' % len(args))
        try:
            self.__root
        except AttributeError:
            self.__hardroot = _Link()
            self.__root = root = _proxy(self.__hardroot)
            root.prev = root.next = root
            self.__map = {}
        self.__update(*args, **kwds)

Thanks!

Albert-Jan


From moh.ahm1166 at gmail.com  Fri Apr 21 15:58:52 2017
From: moh.ahm1166 at gmail.com (Mohammed Ahmed)
Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2017 12:58:52 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Write a function sorting(L).
Message-ID: <522e52f2-03bb-4fe7-b3a5-6389994e4c73@googlegroups.com>

Write a function sorting(L) that takes a list of numbers and returns the list with all
elements sorted in ascending order.
Note: do not use the sort built in function

it is a python question


From alister.ware at ntlworld.com  Fri Apr 21 16:01:12 2017
From: alister.ware at ntlworld.com (alister)
Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2017 20:01:12 GMT
Subject: Write a function sorting(L).
References: <522e52f2-03bb-4fe7-b3a5-6389994e4c73@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <cytKA.1206550$vF2.643772@fx46.am4>

On Fri, 21 Apr 2017 12:58:52 -0700, Mohammed Ahmed wrote:

> Write a function sorting(L) that takes a list of numbers and returns the
> list with all elements sorted in ascending order.
> Note: do not use the sort built in function
> 
> it is a python question

& the reason for this question is what exactly?




-- 
Why isn't there a special name for the tops of your feet?
		-- Lily Tomlin


From moh.ahm1166 at gmail.com  Fri Apr 21 16:01:51 2017
From: moh.ahm1166 at gmail.com (Mohammed Ahmed)
Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2017 13:01:51 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Write a function group(L).
Message-ID: <6510a87f-4275-49cd-9fbe-5d2fd7cbbd4a@googlegroups.com>

Write a function group(L) that takes a list of integers. The function returns a list of
two lists one containing the even values and another containing the odd values.

it is a python question


From rosuav at gmail.com  Fri Apr 21 16:02:42 2017
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Sat, 22 Apr 2017 06:02:42 +1000
Subject: Write a function sorting(L).
In-Reply-To: <522e52f2-03bb-4fe7-b3a5-6389994e4c73@googlegroups.com>
References: <522e52f2-03bb-4fe7-b3a5-6389994e4c73@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmrk+ey6vRdQbZf9=BYgo38T=WdSaTY7seNdK=MB+bvOQw@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Apr 22, 2017 at 5:58 AM, Mohammed Ahmed <moh.ahm1166 at gmail.com> wrote:
> Write a function sorting(L) that takes a list of numbers and returns the list with all
> elements sorted in ascending order.
> Note: do not use the sort built in function
>
> it is a python question

Yes, it is. It looks like the sort of question that you're supposed to
try to answer in order to learn how to write software. I suggest you
try to answer it.

ChrisA


From moh.ahm1166 at gmail.com  Fri Apr 21 16:02:54 2017
From: moh.ahm1166 at gmail.com (Mohammed Ahmed)
Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2017 13:02:54 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Write a function sorting(L).
In-Reply-To: <cytKA.1206550$vF2.643772@fx46.am4>
References: <522e52f2-03bb-4fe7-b3a5-6389994e4c73@googlegroups.com>
 <cytKA.1206550$vF2.643772@fx46.am4>
Message-ID: <80ae2e70-a96a-4b28-af70-20964528f35a@googlegroups.com>

On Friday, April 21, 2017 at 10:01:40 PM UTC+2, alister wrote:
> On Fri, 21 Apr 2017 12:58:52 -0700, Mohammed Ahmed wrote:
> 
> > Write a function sorting(L) that takes a list of numbers and returns the
> > list with all elements sorted in ascending order.
> > Note: do not use the sort built in function
> > 
> > it is a python question
> 
> & the reason for this question is what exactly?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Why isn't there a special name for the tops of your feet?
> 		-- Lily Tomlin

i don't understand you


From moh.ahm1166 at gmail.com  Fri Apr 21 16:04:47 2017
From: moh.ahm1166 at gmail.com (Mohammed Ahmed)
Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2017 13:04:47 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Write a function sorting(L).
In-Reply-To: <mailman.366.1492804965.2951.python-list@python.org>
References: <522e52f2-03bb-4fe7-b3a5-6389994e4c73@googlegroups.com>
 <CAPTjJmrk+ey6vRdQbZf9=BYgo38T=WdSaTY7seNdK=MB+bvOQw@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.366.1492804965.2951.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <44ae8844-b612-41a7-803f-41549dbc6881@googlegroups.com>

On Friday, April 21, 2017 at 10:02:55 PM UTC+2, Chris Angelico wrote:
> On Sat, Apr 22, 2017 at 5:58 AM, Mohammed Ahmed <moh.ahm1166 at gmail.com> wrote:
> > Write a function sorting(L) that takes a list of numbers and returns the list with all
> > elements sorted in ascending order.
> > Note: do not use the sort built in function
> >
> > it is a python question
> 
> Yes, it is. It looks like the sort of question that you're supposed to
> try to answer in order to learn how to write software. I suggest you
> try to answer it.
> 
> ChrisA

i tried a lot but i can't answer it so i thought of getting some help here


From rgaddi at highlandtechnology.invalid  Fri Apr 21 16:15:47 2017
From: rgaddi at highlandtechnology.invalid (Rob Gaddi)
Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2017 13:15:47 -0700
Subject: Write a function sorting(L).
In-Reply-To: <44ae8844-b612-41a7-803f-41549dbc6881@googlegroups.com>
References: <522e52f2-03bb-4fe7-b3a5-6389994e4c73@googlegroups.com>
 <CAPTjJmrk+ey6vRdQbZf9=BYgo38T=WdSaTY7seNdK=MB+bvOQw@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.366.1492804965.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <44ae8844-b612-41a7-803f-41549dbc6881@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <oddp3m$7sj$1@dont-email.me>

On 04/21/2017 01:04 PM, Mohammed Ahmed wrote:
> On Friday, April 21, 2017 at 10:02:55 PM UTC+2, Chris Angelico wrote:
>> On Sat, Apr 22, 2017 at 5:58 AM, Mohammed Ahmed <moh.ahm1166 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Write a function sorting(L) that takes a list of numbers and returns the list with all
>>> elements sorted in ascending order.
>>> Note: do not use the sort built in function
>>>
>>> it is a python question
>>
>> Yes, it is. It looks like the sort of question that you're supposed to
>> try to answer in order to learn how to write software. I suggest you
>> try to answer it.
>>
>> ChrisA
>
> i tried a lot but i can't answer it so i thought of getting some help here
>

Have you tried a) Googling for information on sorting algorithms and 
then b) implementing one in Python?


-- 
Rob Gaddi, Highland Technology -- www.highlandtechnology.com
Email address domain is currently out of order.  See above to fix.


From rosuav at gmail.com  Fri Apr 21 16:17:22 2017
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Sat, 22 Apr 2017 06:17:22 +1000
Subject: Write a function sorting(L).
In-Reply-To: <44ae8844-b612-41a7-803f-41549dbc6881@googlegroups.com>
References: <522e52f2-03bb-4fe7-b3a5-6389994e4c73@googlegroups.com>
 <CAPTjJmrk+ey6vRdQbZf9=BYgo38T=WdSaTY7seNdK=MB+bvOQw@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.366.1492804965.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <44ae8844-b612-41a7-803f-41549dbc6881@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmqOE88z5ZkUsoA2encsL6TgYE19ziT7iJfggJjKPp8VoQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Apr 22, 2017 at 6:04 AM, Mohammed Ahmed <moh.ahm1166 at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Friday, April 21, 2017 at 10:02:55 PM UTC+2, Chris Angelico wrote:
>> On Sat, Apr 22, 2017 at 5:58 AM, Mohammed Ahmed <moh.ahm1166 at gmail.com> wrote:
>> > Write a function sorting(L) that takes a list of numbers and returns the list with all
>> > elements sorted in ascending order.
>> > Note: do not use the sort built in function
>> >
>> > it is a python question
>>
>> Yes, it is. It looks like the sort of question that you're supposed to
>> try to answer in order to learn how to write software. I suggest you
>> try to answer it.
>>
>> ChrisA
>
> i tried a lot but i can't answer it so i thought of getting some help here

If you tried, you should have some partly-working code. Post your code
here - something like this:

"""
Hi! I have the following homework assignment, which I'm struggling
with. Here's what I've come up with so far, but instead of doing X, Y,
and Z, it does Q and then throws SpamError. Can you help me find
what's wrong in my code, please?
"""

Otherwise, you're just asking us to do your homework for you. We
won't. I teach programming for a living, so I'm very much happy to
help you to learn; but giving you the answer won't help you learn,
it'll only help you get past this exercise.

ChrisA


From torriem at gmail.com  Fri Apr 21 16:48:16 2017
From: torriem at gmail.com (Michael Torrie)
Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2017 14:48:16 -0600
Subject: Write a function sorting(L).
In-Reply-To: <522e52f2-03bb-4fe7-b3a5-6389994e4c73@googlegroups.com>
References: <522e52f2-03bb-4fe7-b3a5-6389994e4c73@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <6c11fee2-446e-3819-ae28-ee35fba7ba14@gmail.com>

On 04/21/2017 01:58 PM, Mohammed Ahmed wrote:
> Write a function sorting(L) that takes a list of numbers and returns the list with all
> elements sorted in ascending order.
> Note: do not use the sort built in function
> 
> it is a python question

Sounds like a basic homework question.

Which part are you struggling with?  Do you know how to work with lists
and iterate through their values?  Do you know how to sort numbers?  Do
you know how to make a function?  What does your program look like so far?

I'm glad you're learning Python in a classroom setting.  Have you sat
down with your instructor to discuss the gaps in your knowledge as you
proceed?


From ian.g.kelly at gmail.com  Fri Apr 21 16:51:36 2017
From: ian.g.kelly at gmail.com (Ian Kelly)
Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2017 14:51:36 -0600
Subject: Write a function group(L).
In-Reply-To: <6510a87f-4275-49cd-9fbe-5d2fd7cbbd4a@googlegroups.com>
References: <6510a87f-4275-49cd-9fbe-5d2fd7cbbd4a@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <CALwzidnp7xMNjHzq72MOUsvssWXnBCVWPW1SK0pM_hECcQqicQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Apr 21, 2017 at 2:01 PM, Mohammed Ahmed <moh.ahm1166 at gmail.com> wrote:
> Write a function group(L) that takes a list of integers. The function returns a list of
> two lists one containing the even values and another containing the odd values.
>
> it is a python question

This group will be happy to help you with your homework but we're not
going to do it for you. What have you tried already and what parts are
you struggling with?


From gherron at digipen.edu  Fri Apr 21 17:12:07 2017
From: gherron at digipen.edu (Gary Herron)
Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2017 14:12:07 -0700
Subject: Write a function group(L).
In-Reply-To: <6510a87f-4275-49cd-9fbe-5d2fd7cbbd4a@googlegroups.com>
References: <6510a87f-4275-49cd-9fbe-5d2fd7cbbd4a@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <eda94934-9410-294c-c403-72a53f315943@digipen.edu>

On 04/21/2017 01:01 PM, Mohammed Ahmed wrote:
> Write a function group(L) that takes a list of integers. The function returns a list of
> two lists one containing the even values and another containing the odd values.
>
> it is a python question

In fact, this is *not* a question, Python or otherwise.

Welcome to python-list.  If you ask a Python question, it will probably 
get answered.  If you want someone to do your homework, it will probably 
not happen.


-- 
Dr. Gary Herron
Professor of Computer Science
DigiPen Institute of Technology
(425) 895-4418



From bc at freeuk.com  Fri Apr 21 17:15:38 2017
From: bc at freeuk.com (bartc)
Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2017 22:15:38 +0100
Subject: Write a function sorting(L).
In-Reply-To: <44ae8844-b612-41a7-803f-41549dbc6881@googlegroups.com>
References: <522e52f2-03bb-4fe7-b3a5-6389994e4c73@googlegroups.com>
 <CAPTjJmrk+ey6vRdQbZf9=BYgo38T=WdSaTY7seNdK=MB+bvOQw@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.366.1492804965.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <44ae8844-b612-41a7-803f-41549dbc6881@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <RDuKA.1182564$qK5.406971@fx45.am4>

On 21/04/2017 21:04, Mohammed Ahmed wrote:
> On Friday, April 21, 2017 at 10:02:55 PM UTC+2, Chris Angelico wrote:
>> On Sat, Apr 22, 2017 at 5:58 AM, Mohammed Ahmed <moh.ahm1166 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Write a function sorting(L) that takes a list of numbers and returns the list with all
>>> elements sorted in ascending order.
>>> Note: do not use the sort built in function
>>>
>>> it is a python question
>>
>> Yes, it is. It looks like the sort of question that you're supposed to
>> try to answer in order to learn how to write software. I suggest you
>> try to answer it.
>>
>> ChrisA
>
> i tried a lot but i can't answer it so i thought of getting some help here

You need an algorithm.

How would you sort a set of numbered cards? I might start with looking 
for the smallest, and either moving that to the front, or using it to 
build a new set.

(It's not clear from the question whether the list needs to be sorted 
in-place, or a new list is returned with the elements sorted.)

-- 
bartc



From python.list at tim.thechases.com  Fri Apr 21 17:21:34 2017
From: python.list at tim.thechases.com (Tim Chase)
Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2017 16:21:34 -0500
Subject: Write a function sorting(L).
In-Reply-To: <522e52f2-03bb-4fe7-b3a5-6389994e4c73@googlegroups.com>
References: <522e52f2-03bb-4fe7-b3a5-6389994e4c73@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <20170421162134.282e4ec1@bigbox.christie.dr>

On 2017-04-21 12:58, Mohammed Ahmed wrote:
> Write a function sorting(L) that takes a list of numbers and
> returns the list with all elements sorted in ascending order.
> Note: do not use the sort built in function
> 
> it is a python question

No "sort" functions here...

  >>> lst=[3,1,4,1,5,9,2,6,5]
  >>> getattr(__builtins__, dir(__builtins__)[-9])(lst)
  [1, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 5, 6, 9]

Might have to tweak it based on your version of Python.

For a more robust version:

  >>> import heapq
  >>> heapq.heapify(lst)
  >>> heapq.nsmallest(len(lst), lst)
  [1, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 5, 6, 9]

No built-in sort there either. ;-)

Or, you could show your code instead of trying to get the mailing
list to do your homework for you.

-tkc





From mcepl at cepl.eu  Fri Apr 21 17:26:20 2017
From: mcepl at cepl.eu (=?UTF-8?Q?Mat=C4=9Bj?= Cepl)
Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2017 23:26:20 +0200
Subject: textwrap.fill algorithm? (Difference with vim)
Message-ID: <slrnofku7s.j8n.mcepl@mitmanek.ceplovi.cz>

Hi,

I have a gedit Python plugin which should do line wrap using 
textwrap.fill() function.  However, even when I have set the 
length of line to the same number as in vim (65), the result is 
substantially different (textwrap.fill paragraphs are 
significantly narrower). See for example this diff (removed 
lines are wrapped by vim, added by textwrap.fill-based plugin).

Why cannot textwrap.fill get those words ?grown so? to the first 
line of the wrapped text? Any ideas about the difference in the 
algorithms for line-wrapping in vim and in textwrapper.fill?

Thank you for any suggestions,

Mat?j Cepl

~$ git diff -- mind.rst
diff --git a/mind.rst b/mind.rst
index a9523c2..e55c56b 100644
--- a/mind.rst
+++ b/mind.rst
@@ -63,16 +63,18 @@ personal religious belief. It is a commentary, in the light of
 specialised knowledge, on a particular set of statements made in the
 Christian creeds and their claim to be statements of fact.
 
-It is necessary to issue this caution, for the popular mind has grown so
-confused that it is no longer able to receive any statement of fact
-except as an expression of personal feeling. Some time ago, the present
-writer, pardonably irritated by a very prevalent ignorance concerning
-the essentials of Christian doctrine, published a brief article in which
-those essentials were plainly set down in words that a child could
-understand. Every clause was preceded by some such phrase as: ?the
-Church maintains?, ?the Church teaches?, ?if the Church is right?, and
-so forth. The only personal opinion expressed was that, though the
-doctrine might be false, it could not very well be called dull.
+It is necessary to issue this caution, for the popular mind has
+grown so confused that it is no longer able to receive any
+statement of fact except as an expression of personal feeling.
+Some time ago, the present writer, pardonably irritated by a very
+prevalent ignorance concerning the essentials of Christian
+doctrine, published a brief article in which those essentials
+were plainly set down in words that a child could understand.
+Every clause was preceded by some such phrase as: ?the Church
+maintains?, ?the Church teaches?, ?if the Church is
+right?, and so forth. The only personal opinion expressed was
+that, though the doctrine might be false, it could not very well
+be called dull.
 
 Every newspaper that reviewed this article accepted it without question
 as a profession of faith-some (Heaven knows why) called it ?a courageous
~$


From __peter__ at web.de  Fri Apr 21 17:54:07 2017
From: __peter__ at web.de (Peter Otten)
Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2017 23:54:07 +0200
Subject: textwrap.fill algorithm? (Difference with vim)
References: <slrnofku7s.j8n.mcepl@mitmanek.ceplovi.cz>
Message-ID: <oddv1p$ov0$1@blaine.gmane.org>

Mat?j Cepl wrote:

> I have a gedit Python plugin which should do line wrap using
> textwrap.fill() function.  However, even when I have set the
> length of line to the same number as in vim (65), the result is
> substantially different (textwrap.fill paragraphs are
> significantly narrower). See for example this diff (removed
> lines are wrapped by vim, added by textwrap.fill-based plugin).
> 
> Why cannot textwrap.fill get those words ?grown so? to the first
> line of the wrapped text? Any ideas about the difference in the
> algorithms for line-wrapping in vim and in textwrapper.fill?

It's not the algorithm, it's the width. Try textwrap.fill(text, 72).




From mcepl at cepl.eu  Fri Apr 21 18:17:18 2017
From: mcepl at cepl.eu (=?UTF-8?Q?Mat=C4=9Bj?= Cepl)
Date: Sat, 22 Apr 2017 00:17:18 +0200
Subject: textwrap.fill algorithm? (Difference with vim)
References: <slrnofku7s.j8n.mcepl@mitmanek.ceplovi.cz>
 <oddv1p$ov0$1@blaine.gmane.org>
 <mailman.372.1492811658.2951.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <slrnofl17e.d3u.mcepl@mitmanek.ceplovi.cz>

On 2017-04-21, 21:54 GMT, Peter Otten wrote:
> It's not the algorithm, it's the width. Try 
> textwrap.fill(text, 72).

I don?t understand. Why 72? I have set tw=65 in vim.

Mat?j

-- 
https://matej.ceplovi.cz/blog/, Jabber: mcepl at ceplovi.cz
GPG Finger: 3C76 A027 CA45 AD70 98B5  BC1D 7920 5802 880B C9D8
 
Of course I'm respectable. I'm old. Politicians, ugly buildings,
and whores all get respectable if they last long enough.
      --John Huston in "Chinatown."


From etfeet at gmail.com  Fri Apr 21 20:17:04 2017
From: etfeet at gmail.com (Rory Schramm)
Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2017 17:17:04 -0700
Subject: combine if filter terms from list
Message-ID: <CAAnBAQVereMOzeB4NLkoJa3Db4-C-nOaEUG9G=43uKNocZWEYg@mail.gmail.com>

Hi,

I'm trying to use python list comprehensions to combine multiple terms for
use by a for loop if condition.


filters = [ 'one', 'two', 'three']
for line in other_list:
    if ' and '.join([item for item in filters]) not in line[2]:
        print line

The list comp returns  one and two and three and ..

The problem I'm having is the for loop isn't filtering out the terms from
the filter list. I suspect the problem is the if condition is treating the
results for the list comprehension as a literal string and not part of the
if condition itself. I'm not sure how to fix this though.

Any ideas on How to make this work?

Thanks!,

Rory


From bluebox03 at gmail.com  Fri Apr 21 20:52:04 2017
From: bluebox03 at gmail.com (tommy yama)
Date: Sat, 22 Apr 2017 09:52:04 +0900
Subject: =?UTF-8?B?UmU6IEJhc2ljcyBvZiBweXRob25zIPCfkI0=?=
In-Reply-To: <bbdcfab2-3df2-9a3e-1c73-ddabb6cdbd1c@gmx.com>
References: <17639b3e-017f-4e85-81a8-9ca91405937e@googlegroups.com>
 <bbdcfab2-3df2-9a3e-1c73-ddabb6cdbd1c@gmx.com>
Message-ID: <CANevj7sY64W=WXGn6ft10KoG5mLrxb9V9yV=TrTJDgvs0yZKQg@mail.gmail.com>

Hi there,

For what, you want to learn?





On Sat, Apr 22, 2017 at 1:10 AM, Thomas Nyberg <tomuxiong at gmx.com> wrote:

> On 04/21/2017 08:06 AM, harounelyaakoubi at gmail.com wrote:
> > Hey everyone, I'm willing to learn python , ant advices ?
> > Thanks in advance
> >
> Here is a tutorial:
>
> https://docs.python.org/3/tutorial/
> --
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
>


From python at mrabarnett.plus.com  Fri Apr 21 20:52:14 2017
From: python at mrabarnett.plus.com (MRAB)
Date: Sat, 22 Apr 2017 01:52:14 +0100
Subject: textwrap.fill algorithm? (Difference with vim)
In-Reply-To: <slrnofl17e.d3u.mcepl@mitmanek.ceplovi.cz>
References: <slrnofku7s.j8n.mcepl@mitmanek.ceplovi.cz>
 <oddv1p$ov0$1@blaine.gmane.org>
 <mailman.372.1492811658.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <slrnofl17e.d3u.mcepl@mitmanek.ceplovi.cz>
Message-ID: <bf74ecd0-3fca-c0f8-b884-d88cb014b0ff@mrabarnett.plus.com>

On 2017-04-21 23:17, Mat?j Cepl wrote:
> On 2017-04-21, 21:54 GMT, Peter Otten wrote:
>> It's not the algorithm, it's the width. Try 
>> textwrap.fill(text, 72).
> 
> I don?t understand. Why 72? I have set tw=65 in vim.
> 
textwrap.fill counts characters. It won't put "grown so" on the first 
line because that would make it longer than 65 characters (72, to be exact).

Why is Vim trying to put 72 characters onto the first line?


From python at mrabarnett.plus.com  Fri Apr 21 20:59:56 2017
From: python at mrabarnett.plus.com (MRAB)
Date: Sat, 22 Apr 2017 01:59:56 +0100
Subject: combine if filter terms from list
In-Reply-To: <CAAnBAQVereMOzeB4NLkoJa3Db4-C-nOaEUG9G=43uKNocZWEYg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAAnBAQVereMOzeB4NLkoJa3Db4-C-nOaEUG9G=43uKNocZWEYg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <b27854d5-32de-d440-a975-54b833ceefe3@mrabarnett.plus.com>

On 2017-04-22 01:17, Rory Schramm wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> I'm trying to use python list comprehensions to combine multiple terms for
> use by a for loop if condition.
> 
> 
> filters = [ 'one', 'two', 'three']
> for line in other_list:
>      if ' and '.join([item for item in filters]) not in line[2]:
>          print line
> 
> The list comp returns  one and two and three and ..
> 
> The problem I'm having is the for loop isn't filtering out the terms from
> the filter list. I suspect the problem is the if condition is treating the
> results for the list comprehension as a literal string and not part of the
> if condition itself. I'm not sure how to fix this though.
> 
Correct. The join is returning 'one and two and three'. The condition is 
true if that string isn't in line[2]. (What is line? Is it a string? If 
so, then line[2] is one character of that string.)

> Any ideas on How to make this work?
> 
If you want it to do this:

     if 'one' not in line[2] and 'two' not in line[2] and 'three' not in 
line[2]:

you can write:

     if all(word not in line[2] for word in filters):

or:

     if not any(word in line[2] for word in filters):


From greg.ewing at canterbury.ac.nz  Fri Apr 21 21:01:29 2017
From: greg.ewing at canterbury.ac.nz (Gregory Ewing)
Date: Sat, 22 Apr 2017 13:01:29 +1200
Subject: textwrap.fill algorithm? (Difference with vim)
In-Reply-To: <slrnofl17e.d3u.mcepl@mitmanek.ceplovi.cz>
References: <slrnofku7s.j8n.mcepl@mitmanek.ceplovi.cz>
 <oddv1p$ov0$1@blaine.gmane.org>
 <mailman.372.1492811658.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <slrnofl17e.d3u.mcepl@mitmanek.ceplovi.cz>
Message-ID: <elvobbFeicbU1@mid.individual.net>

Mat?j Cepl wrote:
> On 2017-04-21, 21:54 GMT, Peter Otten wrote:
> 
>>It's not the algorithm, it's the width. Try 
>>textwrap.fill(text, 72).
> 
> I don?t understand. Why 72?

Because the first line including those words is 72 characters
long.

I don't know what vim is doing, but if you tell Python you
want lines no longer than 65 characters, it takes you at
your word.

-- 
Greg


From ben+python at benfinney.id.au  Fri Apr 21 21:18:28 2017
From: ben+python at benfinney.id.au (Ben Finney)
Date: Sat, 22 Apr 2017 11:18:28 +1000
Subject: combine if filter terms from list
References: <CAAnBAQVereMOzeB4NLkoJa3Db4-C-nOaEUG9G=43uKNocZWEYg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <85y3ut6xzv.fsf@benfinney.id.au>

Rory Schramm <etfeet at gmail.com> writes:

> I'm trying to use python list comprehensions to combine multiple terms
> for use by a for loop if condition.

Thank you for a small code example. It doesn't have enough to illustrate
the problem you're describing; we can't run it and see what you're seeing.

> filters = [ 'one', 'two', 'three']
> for line in other_list:
>     if ' and '.join([item for item in filters]) not in line[2]:
>         print line

What is ?line??

What is the example input, and what output are you expecting to see, and
what output do you see instead?

Please construct and present a small and also *complete* example, that
we can also run to have a chance of seeing the same behaviour.

> The problem I'm having is the for loop isn't filtering out the terms from
> the filter list. I suspect the problem is the if condition is treating the
> results for the list comprehension as a literal string and not part of the
> if condition itself. I'm not sure how to fix this though.

Without a complete exampel, and a comparison between what the actual
output is versus what you expect to see, I am not able to understand
the problem description, especially ?not part of the if condition itself?.

> Any ideas on How to make this work?

Once we can see a complete small example that demonstrates the
behaviour, we may have a better chance.

-- 
 \      ?If you don't fail at least 90 percent of the time, you're not |
  `\                                    aiming high enough.? ?Alan Kay |
_o__)                                                                  |
Ben Finney



From hsvaradhan at yahoo.com  Fri Apr 21 21:22:34 2017
From: hsvaradhan at yahoo.com (Harshika Varadhan)
Date: Sat, 22 Apr 2017 01:22:34 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: Turtle window not closing
References: <1091273730.6395991.1492824154078.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <1091273730.6395991.1492824154078@mail.yahoo.com>

Hi everyone,
I am creating a game where the user inputs a coordinate to place their piece on a chess board. My code then draws the chess board with a turtle and fills in the squares in with green where the user can place their next piece. After the user inputs their first coordinate, the turtle draws the board, but then the window doesn't close and the program ends up crashing. Is there any way to solve this problem?I appreciate your help.
My function for drawing the chess board:
def draw_board():? ? t = turtle.Turtle()? ? t.speed(0)? ? t.ht()? ? t.up()? ? t.goto(-100, -100)? ? t.down()
? ? for i in range(0, 8):? ? ? ? for j in range(0, 8):? ? ? ? ? ? if free_squares[i][j] == ".":? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? if j != 7:? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? t.fillcolor("green")? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? t.pencolor("black")? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? t.begin_fill()? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? for k in range(4):? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? t.forward(50)? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? t.left(90)? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? t.end_fill()? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? t.forward(50)? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? if j == 7:? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? t.fillcolor("green")? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? t.pencolor("black")? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? t.begin_fill()? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? for k in range(4):? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? t.forward(50)? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? t.left(90)? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? t.end_fill()? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? t.right(270)? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? t.forward(50)? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? t.left(90)? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? t.forward(350)? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? t.right(180)
? ? turtle.bye()
Thank you,?Harshi

From __peter__ at web.de  Sat Apr 22 03:52:56 2017
From: __peter__ at web.de (Peter Otten)
Date: Sat, 22 Apr 2017 09:52:56 +0200
Subject: Turtle window not closing
References: <1091273730.6395991.1492824154078.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
 <1091273730.6395991.1492824154078@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <odf24n$4p2$1@blaine.gmane.org>

Harshika Varadhan via Python-list wrote:

> I am creating a game where the user inputs a coordinate to place their
> piece on a chess board. My code then draws the chess board with a turtle
> and fills in the squares in with green where the user can place their next
> piece. After the user inputs their first coordinate, the turtle draws the
> board, but then the window doesn't close and the program ends up crashing.

It probably raises an exception and prints a traceback. That "traceback" 
contains the location and a description of the error Python encountered in 
your script and is therefore valuable information that can help you fix your 
code. If you get a traceback always include it into your mail (use cut-and-
paste).

> Is there any way to solve this problem?I appreciate your help. My function
> for drawing the chess board: def draw_board():    t = turtle.Turtle()   
> t.speed(0)    t.ht()    t.up()    t.goto(-100, -100)    t.down() for i in
> range(0, 8):        for j in range(0, 8):            if free_squares[i][j]
> == ".":                if j != 7:                    t.fillcolor("green") 
>                   t.pencolor("black")                    t.begin_fill()   
>                 for k in range(4):                        t.forward(50)   
>                     t.left(90)                    t.end_fill()            
>        t.forward(50)                if j == 7:                   
> t.fillcolor("green")                    t.pencolor("black")               
>     t.begin_fill()                    for k in range(4):                  
>      t.forward(50)                        t.left(90)                   
> t.end_fill()                    t.right(270)                   
> t.forward(50)                    t.left(90)                   
> t.forward(350)                    t.right(180) turtle.bye() Thank you,
> Harshi

That's pretty unreadable. Please remember to post plain text with line-
wrapping turned off next time.

> the program ends up crashing.

If I were to guess: Did you define the `free_squares` list of lists 
properly?

> but then the window doesn't close

Are you running your script from within IDLE? Try starting it from the 
command line instead.

Like turtle IDLE itself is a program written in tkinter, and the separation 
between editer and user code is not always perfect. 



From eryksun at gmail.com  Sat Apr 22 03:59:45 2017
From: eryksun at gmail.com (eryk sun)
Date: Sat, 22 Apr 2017 07:59:45 +0000
Subject: OrderedDict with kwds
In-Reply-To: <AM4PR10MB148977577D9534144026FD88831A0@AM4PR10MB1489.EURPRD10.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
References: <AM4PR10MB148977577D9534144026FD88831A0@AM4PR10MB1489.EURPRD10.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
Message-ID: <CACL+1asABpFkzU7o8FexYvdbc9FWgZJ3YjfSVr=oJHZGy0EF1g@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Apr 21, 2017 at 6:08 PM, Albert-Jan Roskam
<sjeik_appie at hotmail.com> wrote:
> Would the insertion order be preserved if the last line were to be
> replaced with:
>
> if kwds:
>     for k, v in kwds.items():
>         self[k] = v
> if args:
>     self.__update(*args)  # no **kwds!

The basic problem is that kwds is a regular, unordered dict:

    def f(**kwds):
        print(type(kwds))

    >>> f()
    <class 'dict'>


From sjeik_appie at hotmail.com  Sat Apr 22 04:18:20 2017
From: sjeik_appie at hotmail.com (Albert-Jan Roskam)
Date: Sat, 22 Apr 2017 08:18:20 +0000
Subject: OrderedDict with kwds
In-Reply-To: <CACL+1asABpFkzU7o8FexYvdbc9FWgZJ3YjfSVr=oJHZGy0EF1g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AM4PR10MB148977577D9534144026FD88831A0@AM4PR10MB1489.EURPRD10.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>,
 <CACL+1asABpFkzU7o8FexYvdbc9FWgZJ3YjfSVr=oJHZGy0EF1g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AM4PR10MB1489C4674DD5FF670ED8B83D831D0@AM4PR10MB1489.EURPRD10.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>

From: eryk sun <eryksun at gmail.com>
Sent: Saturday, April 22, 2017 7:59 AM
To: Python Main
Cc: Albert-Jan Roskam
Subject: Re: OrderedDict with kwds
?   
On Fri, Apr 21, 2017 at 6:08 PM, Albert-Jan Roskam
<sjeik_appie at hotmail.com> wrote:
> Would the insertion order be preserved if the last line were to be
> replaced with:
>
> if kwds:
>???? for k, v in kwds.items():
>???????? self[k] = v
> if args:
>???? self.__update(*args)? # no **kwds!

The basic problem is that kwds is a regular, unordered dict:

??? def f(**kwds):
??????? print(type(kwds))

??? >>> f()
??? <class 'dict'>
    

----> Hi Eryk,

Yes, I realized this later that evening (probably thanks to can of cold beer :-)). But there is hope: https://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0468/ . Do you know if there is/will be a "from __future__" to backport that behavior? We're using Python 3.5 now.

Thank you!

Albert-Jan

From songofacandy at gmail.com  Sat Apr 22 04:20:50 2017
From: songofacandy at gmail.com (INADA Naoki)
Date: Sat, 22 Apr 2017 17:20:50 +0900
Subject: OrderedDict with kwds
In-Reply-To: <AM4PR10MB148977577D9534144026FD88831A0@AM4PR10MB1489.EURPRD10.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
References: <AM4PR10MB148977577D9534144026FD88831A0@AM4PR10MB1489.EURPRD10.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
Message-ID: <CAEfz+TwOYrEFz5fRiFg8KxmPCpm+F954shYKhmuO38pdxBODig@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Apr 22, 2017 at 3:08 AM, Albert-Jan Roskam
<sjeik_appie at hotmail.com> wrote:
> For regular dicts I like to use the dict() function because the code is easier to write and read. But OrderedDict() is not equivalent to dict():
> In the docstring of collections.OrderedDict it says "keyword arguments are not recommended because their insertion order is arbitrary" (https://github.com/python/cpython/blob/3.6/Lib/collections/__init__.py)
>

>From Python 3.6, keyword arguments are ordered.  So the docstring is outdated.


From __peter__ at web.de  Sat Apr 22 04:21:28 2017
From: __peter__ at web.de (Peter Otten)
Date: Sat, 22 Apr 2017 10:21:28 +0200
Subject: OrderedDict with kwds
References: <AM4PR10MB148977577D9534144026FD88831A0@AM4PR10MB1489.EURPRD10.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
Message-ID: <odf3q5$aae$1@blaine.gmane.org>

Albert-Jan Roskam wrote:

> For regular dicts I like to use the dict() function because the code is
> easier to write and read. But OrderedDict() is not equivalent to dict():
> In the docstring of collections.OrderedDict it says "keyword arguments are
> not recommended because their insertion order is arbitrary"
> (https://github.com/python/cpython/blob/3.6/Lib/collections/__init__.py)
> 
> It took me while to realize that. What is the best way to use keywords to
> create an ordered dict, while maintaining insertion order?

That's the equivalent to "How can I eat my cake and have it." Once you pass 
keyword arguments order is inevitably lost

$ python3 -c 'f = lambda **kw: list(kw); print(f(a=1, b=2))'
['a', 'b']
$ python3 -c 'f = lambda **kw: list(kw); print(f(a=1, b=2))'
['a', 'b']
$ python3 -c 'f = lambda **kw: list(kw); print(f(a=1, b=2))'
['b', 'a']

in all Python versions prior to 3.6. 

However, in 3.6 dict keys stay in insertion order, so you don't even need an 
OrderedDict anymore. Specifically

https://docs.python.org/dev/whatsnew/3.6.html

"""
CPython implementation improvements:
...
The order of elements in **kwargs now corresponds to the order in which 
keyword arguments were passed to the function.
"""




From rustompmody at gmail.com  Sat Apr 22 07:17:41 2017
From: rustompmody at gmail.com (Rustom Mody)
Date: Sat, 22 Apr 2017 04:17:41 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Bigotry (you win, I give up)
In-Reply-To: <mailman.357.1492765673.2951.python-list@python.org>
References: <85r30o9nnp.fsf@benfinney.id.au>
 <00d201d2b970$6e4c8530$27b23dae@sambora>
 <CAPjBxg_Y=GNObBnpzRN890c3iWvbbaoJnK-E4_9pGGKHRgt8rA@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.316.1492658583.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <94788997-2d7e-49da-9c3e-fb6debe1bc24@googlegroups.com>
 <8c5196c0-a629-2530-fc39-928ba2d2f9e7@rece.vub.ac.be>
 <mailman.357.1492765673.2951.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <6c393b04-72aa-4583-95ec-c25a1029c345@googlegroups.com>

On Friday, April 21, 2017 at 2:38:08 PM UTC+5:30, Antoon Pardon wrote:
> Op 20-04-17 om 17:25 schreef Rustom Mody:
> > But more importantly thank you for your polite and consistent pointing out to
> > Ben Finney that his religion-bashing signature lines [many of them] and his 
> > claims to wish this list be welcoming are way out of sync.
> 
> I don't know. I think a concept like welcoming is too complex, to draw such
> simple conclusions. First of all we have to make a choice about the public we
> want to be welcoming to. I'm rather confident we can agree we don't want to
> be welcoming to bigots on this list.
> 
> Then feeling welcome is not a boolean, people can feel welcome to a different
> degree and there are many factors at work. If people tend to react in a friendly
> manner to there co-participants, people generally should feel welcome. A statment
> in a signature that isn't addressing anyone personnaly may give rise to some
> irritation but shouldn't make this list feel unwelcome to someone.

Generally agree
[though I wonder how you will decide what constitutes a 'bigot'. Look at the
suggestion in the very subject of these threads]

> 
> Do you think critising any idea in one's signature is enough to conclude that
> this person doesn't wish this list to be welcoming?

Lets try a thought-experiment:
A: Islam is glorious
B: Religion is garbage
C: Christ is the best

Will these statements get equal treatment as spam/as censure etc if they appear
on this list?

Note that from certain pov, religion-bashing or atheism-lauding are as
much pushing some belief-system as pushing an (un)conventional religion

More to the point will an anti-semitic view be treated with equal
harshness to an anti-Islam/Palestine one?
https://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-list/2017-April/720532.html

Overall, even though it may be a blunt weapon: Why not just keep out utterly
unrelated-to-python stuff?


From steve+python at pearwood.info  Sat Apr 22 08:05:06 2017
From: steve+python at pearwood.info (Steve D'Aprano)
Date: Sat, 22 Apr 2017 22:05:06 +1000
Subject: Microsoft now ships Python with SQL Server
Message-ID: <58fb46f3$0$1616$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>

https://blogs.technet.microsoft.com/dataplatforminsider/2017/04/19/python-in-sql-server-2017-enhanced-in-database-machine-learning/

Quote:

We are excited to share the preview release of in-database analytics and
machine learning with Python in SQL Server. Python is one of the most
popular languages for data science and has a rich ecosystem of powerful
libraries.

Starting with the CTP 2.0 release of SQL Server 2017, you can now bring
Python-based intelligence to your data in SQL Server.

The addition of Python builds on the foundation laid for R Services in SQL
Server 2016 and extends that mechanism to include Python support for
in-database analytics and machine learning. We are renaming R Services to
Machine Learning Services, and R and Python are two options under this
feature.

/quote


-- 
Steve
?Cheer up,? they said, ?things could be worse.? So I cheered up, and sure
enough, things got worse.



From horgan.anton5 at gmail.com  Sat Apr 22 08:45:09 2017
From: horgan.anton5 at gmail.com (horgan.anton5 at gmail.com)
Date: Sat, 22 Apr 2017 05:45:09 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: How to get Buttons to work
Message-ID: <45cccdce-ec5f-4aa0-9bef-b7447ee92875@googlegroups.com>

I am busy learning Python and I want to make a simple program that connects to a database to locate the information of Doctors. Now the as far as I can see everything works fine, database connects, info gets displayed, but the buttons don't want to work. Please see code and error below.

Any help will be greatly appreciated.

Error:

Traceback (most recent call last):
  File "C:\Users\Bl at h\Desktop\New INF\CallDoctorLocator.py", line 57, in <module>
    myapp = MyForm()
  File "C:\Users\Bl at h\Desktop\New INF\CallDoctorLocator.py", line 29, in __init__
    QtCore.QObject.connect(self.ui.ButtonUpdate, QtCore.SIGNAL('clicked()' ), self.UpdateRecords)
AttributeError: 'MyForm' object has no attribute 'UpdateRecords'
>>> 
Code:

#CallDoctorLocator import sys from DoctorLocator import * from PyQt4 import QtSql, QtGui

#Create Connection to the Database def createConnection():
    db = QtSql.QSqlDatabase.addDatabase('QMYSQL')
    db.setHostName('localhost')
    db.setDatabaseName('healthcare')
    db.setUserName('root')
    db.setPassword('3364834')
    db.open()
    print (db.lastError().text())
    return True

class MyForm(QtGui.QDialog):
    def __init__(self, parent=None):
        QtGui.QWidget.__init__(self, parent)
        QtGui.QWidget.__init__(self, parent)
        self.ui = Ui_Dialog()
        self.ui.setupUi(self)
        self.model = QtSql.QSqlTableModel(self)
        self.model.setTable("doctors")
        self.model.setEditStrategy(QtSql.QSqlTableModel.OnManualSubmit)
        self.model.select()
        self.ui.tableView.setModel(self.model)
        QtCore.QObject.connect(self.ui.ButtonUpdate, QtCore.SIGNAL('clicked()' 
        ), self.UpdateRecords)
        QtCore.QObject.connect(self.ui.buttonCancel, QtCore.SIGNAL('clicked()' 
        ), self.CancelChanges)
        QtCore.QObject.connect(self.ui.buttonAdd, QtCore.SIGNAL('clicked()' ), 
        self.AddRecord)
        QtCore.QObject.connect(self.ui.buttonDelete, QtCore.SIGNAL('clicked()' 
        ), self.DeleteRecord)
        QtCore.QObject.connect(self.ui.buttonSearch, QtCore.SIGNAL('clicked()' 
        ), self.SearchRecords)


def UpdateRecords(self):
    self.model.AddRecord()

def CancelChanges(self):
    self.model.revertAll()

def UpdateRecords (self):
    self.model.insertRow(self.ui.tableView.currentIndex().row())

def DeleteRecords(self):
    self.model.removeRow(self.ui.tableView.currentIndex().row())
    self.model.AddRecord()

def SearchRecords(self):
    self.model.setFilter("Name like '" + self.ui.Name.text()+"%'")

if __name__ == "__main__":
    app = QtGui.QApplication(sys.argv)
    if not createConnection():
        sys.exit(1)
    myapp = MyForm()
    myapp.show()
    sys.exit(app.exec_())


From sjeik_appie at hotmail.com  Sat Apr 22 08:56:45 2017
From: sjeik_appie at hotmail.com (Albert-Jan Roskam)
Date: Sat, 22 Apr 2017 12:56:45 +0000
Subject: How to get Buttons to work
In-Reply-To: <45cccdce-ec5f-4aa0-9bef-b7447ee92875@googlegroups.com>
References: <45cccdce-ec5f-4aa0-9bef-b7447ee92875@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <AM4PR10MB148947EE532E8EEE69798B7F831D0@AM4PR10MB1489.EURPRD10.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>

(sorry for top-posting). UpdateRecords and the other functions need to be nested so they fall under your class. Right now they are functions, not methods.

AJ
________________________________
From: Python-list <python-list-bounces+sjeik_appie=hotmail.com at python.org> on behalf of horgan.anton5 at gmail.com <horgan.anton5 at gmail.com>
Sent: Saturday, April 22, 2017 12:45:09 PM
To: python-list at python.org
Subject: How to get Buttons to work

I am busy learning Python and I want to make a simple program that connects to a database to locate the information of Doctors. Now the as far as I can see everything works fine, database connects, info gets displayed, but the buttons don't want to work. Please see code and error below.

Any help will be greatly appreciated.

Error:

Traceback (most recent call last):
  File "C:\Users\Bl at h\Desktop\New INF\CallDoctorLocator.py", line 57, in <module>
    myapp = MyForm()
  File "C:\Users\Bl at h\Desktop\New INF\CallDoctorLocator.py", line 29, in __init__
    QtCore.QObject.connect(self.ui.ButtonUpdate, QtCore.SIGNAL('clicked()' ), self.UpdateRecords)
AttributeError: 'MyForm' object has no attribute 'UpdateRecords'
>>>
Code:

#CallDoctorLocator import sys from DoctorLocator import * from PyQt4 import QtSql, QtGui

#Create Connection to the Database def createConnection():
    db = QtSql.QSqlDatabase.addDatabase('QMYSQL')
    db.setHostName('localhost')
    db.setDatabaseName('healthcare')
    db.setUserName('root')
    db.setPassword('3364834')
    db.open()
    print (db.lastError().text())
    return True

class MyForm(QtGui.QDialog):
    def __init__(self, parent=None):
        QtGui.QWidget.__init__(self, parent)
        QtGui.QWidget.__init__(self, parent)
        self.ui = Ui_Dialog()
        self.ui.setupUi(self)
        self.model = QtSql.QSqlTableModel(self)
        self.model.setTable("doctors")
        self.model.setEditStrategy(QtSql.QSqlTableModel.OnManualSubmit)
        self.model.select()
        self.ui.tableView.setModel(self.model)
        QtCore.QObject.connect(self.ui.ButtonUpdate, QtCore.SIGNAL('clicked()'
        ), self.UpdateRecords)
        QtCore.QObject.connect(self.ui.buttonCancel, QtCore.SIGNAL('clicked()'
        ), self.CancelChanges)
        QtCore.QObject.connect(self.ui.buttonAdd, QtCore.SIGNAL('clicked()' ),
        self.AddRecord)
        QtCore.QObject.connect(self.ui.buttonDelete, QtCore.SIGNAL('clicked()'
        ), self.DeleteRecord)
        QtCore.QObject.connect(self.ui.buttonSearch, QtCore.SIGNAL('clicked()'
        ), self.SearchRecords)


def UpdateRecords(self):
    self.model.AddRecord()

def CancelChanges(self):
    self.model.revertAll()

def UpdateRecords (self):
    self.model.insertRow(self.ui.tableView.currentIndex().row())

def DeleteRecords(self):
    self.model.removeRow(self.ui.tableView.currentIndex().row())
    self.model.AddRecord()

def SearchRecords(self):
    self.model.setFilter("Name like '" + self.ui.Name.text()+"%'")

if __name__ == "__main__":
    app = QtGui.QApplication(sys.argv)
    if not createConnection():
        sys.exit(1)
    myapp = MyForm()
    myapp.show()
    sys.exit(app.exec_())
--
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list


From __peter__ at web.de  Sat Apr 22 09:06:07 2017
From: __peter__ at web.de (Peter Otten)
Date: Sat, 22 Apr 2017 15:06:07 +0200
Subject: How to get Buttons to work
References: <45cccdce-ec5f-4aa0-9bef-b7447ee92875@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <odfkfp$393$1@blaine.gmane.org>

horgan.anton5 at gmail.com wrote:

> I am busy learning Python and I want to make a simple program that
> connects to a database to locate the information of Doctors. Now the as
> far as I can see everything works fine, database connects, info gets
> displayed, but the buttons don't want to work. Please see code and error
> below.
> 
> Any help will be greatly appreciated.
> 
> Error:
> 
> Traceback (most recent call last):
>   File "C:\Users\Bl at h\Desktop\New INF\CallDoctorLocator.py", line 57, in
>   <module>
>     myapp = MyForm()
>   File "C:\Users\Bl at h\Desktop\New INF\CallDoctorLocator.py", line 29, in
>   __init__
>     QtCore.QObject.connect(self.ui.ButtonUpdate, QtCore.SIGNAL('clicked()'
>     ), self.UpdateRecords)
> AttributeError: 'MyForm' object has no attribute 'UpdateRecords'
>>>> 
> Code:
> 
> #CallDoctorLocator import sys from DoctorLocator import * from PyQt4
> #import QtSql, QtGui
> 
> #Create Connection to the Database def createConnection():
>     db = QtSql.QSqlDatabase.addDatabase('QMYSQL')
>     db.setHostName('localhost')
>     db.setDatabaseName('healthcare')
>     db.setUserName('root')
>     db.setPassword('3364834')
>     db.open()
>     print (db.lastError().text())
>     return True
> 
> class MyForm(QtGui.QDialog):
>     def __init__(self, parent=None):
>         QtGui.QWidget.__init__(self, parent)
>         QtGui.QWidget.__init__(self, parent)
>         self.ui = Ui_Dialog()
>         self.ui.setupUi(self)
>         self.model = QtSql.QSqlTableModel(self)
>         self.model.setTable("doctors")
>         self.model.setEditStrategy(QtSql.QSqlTableModel.OnManualSubmit)
>         self.model.select()
>         self.ui.tableView.setModel(self.model)
>         QtCore.QObject.connect(self.ui.ButtonUpdate,
>         QtCore.SIGNAL('clicked()' ), self.UpdateRecords)
>         QtCore.QObject.connect(self.ui.buttonCancel,
>         QtCore.SIGNAL('clicked()' ), self.CancelChanges)
>         QtCore.QObject.connect(self.ui.buttonAdd,
>         QtCore.SIGNAL('clicked()' ), self.AddRecord)
>         QtCore.QObject.connect(self.ui.buttonDelete,
>         QtCore.SIGNAL('clicked()' ), self.DeleteRecord)
>         QtCore.QObject.connect(self.ui.buttonSearch,
>         QtCore.SIGNAL('clicked()' ), self.SearchRecords)
> 
> 
> def UpdateRecords(self):
>     self.model.AddRecord()

The above UpdateRecord() method (also the methods that follow) has to be 
indented to the same level as the __init__() method. As written it is 
defined as a standalone function.

> 
> def CancelChanges(self):
>     self.model.revertAll()
> 
> def UpdateRecords (self):
>     self.model.insertRow(self.ui.tableView.currentIndex().row())

Once the indentation is fixed: you cannot have two methods with the same 
name. You have to decide if you want the first or the second UpdateRecords() 
implementation.
> 
> def DeleteRecords(self):
>     self.model.removeRow(self.ui.tableView.currentIndex().row())
>     self.model.AddRecord()
> 
> def SearchRecords(self):
>     self.model.setFilter("Name like '" + self.ui.Name.text()+"%'")
> 
> if __name__ == "__main__":
>     app = QtGui.QApplication(sys.argv)
>     if not createConnection():
>         sys.exit(1)
>     myapp = MyForm()
>     myapp.show()
>     sys.exit(app.exec_())




From ben+python at benfinney.id.au  Sat Apr 22 09:41:07 2017
From: ben+python at benfinney.id.au (Ben Finney)
Date: Sat, 22 Apr 2017 23:41:07 +1000
Subject: OrderedDict with kwds
References: <AM4PR10MB148977577D9534144026FD88831A0@AM4PR10MB1489.EURPRD10.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
 <CAEfz+TwOYrEFz5fRiFg8KxmPCpm+F954shYKhmuO38pdxBODig@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <85tw5g7e6k.fsf@benfinney.id.au>

INADA Naoki <songofacandy at gmail.com> writes:

> From Python 3.6, keyword arguments are ordered. So the docstring is
> outdated.

(Thank you, Inada-san, for the implementation!)

The announcement of the change specifies that we should not rely on
ordered ?dict?:

    The order-preserving aspect of this new implementation is considered
    an implementation detail and should not be relied upon [?].

    <URL:https://docs.python.org/3.6/whatsnew/3.6.html#new-dict-implementation>

So, I would recommend continuing to code as though ?dict? is not
ordered, at least until a Python version is released with a clear
statement that ordering can be relied upon.

-- 
 \       ?Always do right. This will gratify some people, and astonish |
  `\                                            the rest.? ?Mark Twain |
_o__)                                                                  |
Ben Finney



From bluebox03 at gmail.com  Sat Apr 22 09:47:22 2017
From: bluebox03 at gmail.com (tommy yama)
Date: Sat, 22 Apr 2017 22:47:22 +0900
Subject: Gephi development references
Message-ID: <CANevj7uJW8rR3+47sfN7L349i3sDr6VUZkTiuPpsaa3vx27E=g@mail.gmail.com>

Hey there Pythoners,

Hope you guys are all well.

I am actually very interested in learning the gephi, a platform which is
capable of easily developing a variety of awesome graphs.

Dose anyone give me some code samples and resources which relates the
gephi?


Appreciated for reading this!

T


From hsvaradhan at yahoo.com  Sat Apr 22 11:09:46 2017
From: hsvaradhan at yahoo.com (Harshika Varadhan)
Date: Sat, 22 Apr 2017 15:09:46 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: Turtle window not closing
References: <1806251782.6663000.1492873786434.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <1806251782.6663000.1492873786434@mail.yahoo.com>

Thank you for your response. I apologize for that, this is my first time posting so I wasn't sure how to copy my code!?
I figured out that using the clear() method works for clearing the turtle window after drawing the game board, but now I am trying to figure out how to make the program wait a few seconds or wait for the user to press a key before clearing the turtle window (not closing the window, just clearing it). Is there any way to do this?

def draw_board():
    t = turtle.Turtle()
    t.speed(0)
    t.ht()
    t.up()
    t.goto(-100, -100)
    t.down()

    for i in range(7, -1, -1):
        for j in range(0, 8):
            if free_squares[i][j] == ".":
                if j != 7:
                    t.fillcolor("green")
                    t.pencolor("black")
                    t.begin_fill()
                    for k in range(4):
                        t.forward(50)
                        t.left(90)
                    t.end_fill()
                    t.forward(50)
                if j == 7:
                    t.fillcolor("green")
                    t.pencolor("black")
                    t.begin_fill()
                    for k in range(4):
                        t.forward(50)
                        t.left(90)
                    t.end_fill()
                    t.right(270)
                    t.forward(50)
                    t.left(90)
                    t.forward(350)
                    t.right(180)
            else:
                if j != 7:
                    for l in range(4):
                        t.forward(50)
                        t.left(90)
                    t.forward(50)
                if j == 7:
                    for l in range(4):
                        t.forward(50)
                        t.left(90)
                    t.end_fill()
                    t.right(270)
                    t.forward(50)
                    t.left(90)
                    t.forward(350)
                    t.right(180)
    wn.clear()
I appreciate your help.
Thanks,
Harshi


On Saturday, April 22, 2017 3:56 AM, Peter Otten <__peter__ at web.de> wrote:



Harshika Varadhan via Python-list wrote:


> I am creating a game where the user inputs a coordinate to place their

> piece on a chess board. My code then draws the chess board with a turtle

> and fills in the squares in with green where the user can place their next

> piece. After the user inputs their first coordinate, the turtle draws the

> board, but then the window doesn't close and the program ends up crashing.


It probably raises an exception and prints a traceback. That "traceback" 

contains the location and a description of the error Python encountered in 

your script and is therefore valuable information that can help you fix your 

code. If you get a traceback always include it into your mail (use cut-and-

paste).


> Is there any way to solve this problem?I appreciate your help. My function

> for drawing the chess board: def draw_board():? ? t = turtle.Turtle()? 

> t.speed(0)? ? t.ht()? ? t.up()? ? t.goto(-100, -100)? ? t.down() for i in

> range(0, 8):? ? ? ? for j in range(0, 8):? ? ? ? ? ? if free_squares[i][j]

> == ".":? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? if j != 7:? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? t.fillcolor("green") 

>? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? t.pencolor("black")? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? t.begin_fill()? 

>? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? for k in range(4):? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? t.forward(50)? 

>? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? t.left(90)? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? t.end_fill()? ? ? ? ? ? 

>? ? ? ? t.forward(50)? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? if j == 7:? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? 

> t.fillcolor("green")? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? t.pencolor("black")? ? ? ? ? ? ? 

>? ? t.begin_fill()? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? for k in range(4):? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? 

>? ? ? t.forward(50)? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? t.left(90)? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? 

> t.end_fill()? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? t.right(270)? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? 

> t.forward(50)? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? t.left(90)? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? 

> t.forward(350)? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? t.right(180) turtle.bye() Thank you,

> Harshi


That's pretty unreadable. Please remember to post plain text with line-

wrapping turned off next time.


> the program ends up crashing.


If I were to guess: Did you define the `free_squares` list of lists 

properly?


> but then the window doesn't close


Are you running your script from within IDLE? Try starting it from the 

command line instead.


Like turtle IDLE itself is a program written in tkinter, and the separation 

between editer and user code is not always perfect. 


-- 

https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

From walters.justin01 at gmail.com  Sat Apr 22 11:24:08 2017
From: walters.justin01 at gmail.com (justin walters)
Date: Sat, 22 Apr 2017 08:24:08 -0700
Subject: Microsoft now ships Python with SQL Server
In-Reply-To: <58fb46f3$0$1616$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
References: <58fb46f3$0$1616$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
Message-ID: <CAO1D73FeYbQQcUkV8=DxjKtBMW=osS_AvV-A2eORuko3j6BU6A@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Apr 22, 2017 at 5:05 AM, Steve D'Aprano <steve+python at pearwood.info>
wrote:

> https://blogs.technet.microsoft.com/dataplatforminsider/2017/04/
> 19/python-in-sql-server-2017-enhanced-in-database-machine-learning/
>
> Quote:
>
> We are excited to share the preview release of in-database analytics and
> machine learning with Python in SQL Server. Python is one of the most
> popular languages for data science and has a rich ecosystem of powerful
> libraries.
>
> Starting with the CTP 2.0 release of SQL Server 2017, you can now bring
> Python-based intelligence to your data in SQL Server.
>
> The addition of Python builds on the foundation laid for R Services in SQL
> Server 2016 and extends that mechanism to include Python support for
> in-database analytics and machine learning. We are renaming R Services to
> Machine Learning Services, and R and Python are two options under this
> feature.
>
> /quote
>
>
> --
> Steve
> ?Cheer up,? they said, ?things could be worse.? So I cheered up, and sure
> enough, things got worse.
>
> --
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
>

Does this mean Python is now Enterprise??

Nah, in all seriousness though; this is good new I think. I'm all for
Python becoming
even more wide spread.

Although I've never used MS SQL, I'm glad people who do use it for work now
have an easy to
understand language to perform analytics with.

It's also great news that they are defaulting to Python 3.5.


From songofacandy at gmail.com  Sat Apr 22 12:28:17 2017
From: songofacandy at gmail.com (INADA Naoki)
Date: Sun, 23 Apr 2017 01:28:17 +0900
Subject: OrderedDict with kwds
In-Reply-To: <85tw5g7e6k.fsf@benfinney.id.au>
References: <AM4PR10MB148977577D9534144026FD88831A0@AM4PR10MB1489.EURPRD10.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
 <CAEfz+TwOYrEFz5fRiFg8KxmPCpm+F954shYKhmuO38pdxBODig@mail.gmail.com>
 <85tw5g7e6k.fsf@benfinney.id.au>
Message-ID: <CAEfz+TwZkqQqA+5J9VgFhe8Azr-onDrJPDjXGPtB8fZFE0rayQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Apr 22, 2017 at 10:41 PM, Ben Finney <ben+python at benfinney.id.au> wrote:
> INADA Naoki <songofacandy at gmail.com> writes:
>
>> From Python 3.6, keyword arguments are ordered. So the docstring is
>> outdated.
>
> (Thank you, Inada-san, for the implementation!)
>
> The announcement of the change specifies that we should not rely on
> ordered ?dict?:
>
>     The order-preserving aspect of this new implementation is considered
>     an implementation detail and should not be relied upon [?].
>
>     <URL:https://docs.python.org/3.6/whatsnew/3.6.html#new-dict-implementation>
>
> So, I would recommend continuing to code as though ?dict? is not
> ordered, at least until a Python version is released with a clear
> statement that ordering can be relied upon.

See https://www.python.org/downloads/release/python-360/

> PEP 468 Preserving Keyword Argument Order

While dict's order is implementation detail, keyword is ordered by
language spec.
You can rely on it on Python 3.6+.


From rurpy at yahoo.com  Sat Apr 22 13:32:58 2017
From: rurpy at yahoo.com (Rurpy)
Date: Sat, 22 Apr 2017 17:32:58 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: Bigotry (you win, I give up)
References: <1259988692.1970803.1492882378675.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <1259988692.1970803.1492882378675@mail.yahoo.com>

On 04/22/2017 05:17 AM, Rustom Mody wrote:
> On Friday, April 21, 2017 at 2:38:08 PM UTC+5:30, Antoon Pardon wrote:
>> Op 20-04-17 om 17:25 schreef Rustom Mody:
>>> But more importantly thank you for your polite and consistent pointing out to
>>> Ben Finney that his religion-bashing signature lines [many of them] and his 
>>> claims to wish this list be welcoming are way out of sync.
>>
>> I don't know. I think a concept like welcoming is too complex, to draw such
>> simple conclusions. First of all we have to make a choice about the public we
>> want to be welcoming to. I'm rather confident we can agree we don't want to
>> be welcoming to bigots on this list.
>>
>> Then feeling welcome is not a boolean, people can feel welcome to a different
>> degree and there are many factors at work. If people tend to react in a friendly
>> manner to there co-participants, people generally should feel welcome. A statment
>> in a signature that isn't addressing anyone personnaly may give rise to some
>> irritation but shouldn't make this list feel unwelcome to someone.
> 
> Generally agree
> [though I wonder how you will decide what constitutes a 'bigot'. Look at the
> suggestion in the very subject of these threads]

As the author of that subject, I'm not sure what point you are
trying to make but let me point out that "bigot" does NOT appear 
in the subject line.  I distinguish between "bigotry", an expression 
of intolerance and prejudice and "bigot", a person who repeatedly 
and knowingly makes bigoted statements.

It also seems to me that "bigot", like "racist", has very little 
intellectual value having been degraded by use to little more than
a stronger more emotive form of "asshole" or "dickhead".

>> Do you think critising any idea in one's signature is enough to conclude that
>> this person doesn't wish this list to be welcoming?

I have to agree Antoon here.
I think there is a distinction between a signature that expresses
an opinion (even an offensive one to some) and the use of prejudice 
and bigotry directly in a message and used to attack a person or 
idea rather than a reasoned refutation of the idea itself.

After all, listening to and understanding (though not necessarily)
agreeing with) opinions that differ from our own is surely something
not to be discouraged?

c.l.p:
  Me: I think python strings should be mutable.
  Someome: That's stupid.  You sound like a typical Rurplandian 
    who we know have IQ scores 15 points lower than us.
  [It's true that we have lower IQ scores.]

vs. a sig:
  --
  Because of the stupidity of its people, Rurplandia should not
  be admitted to the UN.

I would find the former offensive and objectionable, the latter
offensive but acceptable.

That being said, there are certainly sigs that are offensive enough
to community standards as to be unacceptable.  But the bar for sigs
should be much higher than for bigotry directed towards a person 
in a discussion. 

And the point of my first post remains: whatever that bar is should 
be applied evenhandedly, with regard to both the poster and to the 
politics expressed.


From mcepl at cepl.eu  Sat Apr 22 14:01:51 2017
From: mcepl at cepl.eu (=?UTF-8?Q?Mat=C4=9Bj?= Cepl)
Date: Sat, 22 Apr 2017 20:01:51 +0200
Subject: textwrap.fill algorithm? (Difference with vim)
References: <slrnofku7s.j8n.mcepl@mitmanek.ceplovi.cz>
 <oddv1p$ov0$1@blaine.gmane.org>
 <mailman.372.1492811658.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <slrnofl17e.d3u.mcepl@mitmanek.ceplovi.cz>
 <elvobbFeicbU1@mid.individual.net>
Message-ID: <slrnofn6kf.ra0.mcepl@mitmanek.ceplovi.cz>

On 2017-04-22, 01:01 GMT, Gregory Ewing wrote:
> I don't know what vim is doing, but if you tell Python you
> want lines no longer than 65 characters, it takes you at
> your word.

Oh, I?ve got it. textwrap.fill() (only in Python 2.*?) completely 
sucks with bytes, because of course it counts every byte as 
separate character for purpose of counting. All the text must be 
converted into unicode. It would be probably nice, if the 
textwrap documentation mentioned it.

Best,

Mat?j

-- 
https://matej.ceplovi.cz/blog/, Jabber: mcepl at ceplovi.cz
GPG Finger: 3C76 A027 CA45 AD70 98B5  BC1D 7920 5802 880B C9D8
 
Of course I'm respectable. I'm old. Politicians, ugly buildings,
and whores all get respectable if they last long enough.
      --John Huston in "Chinatown."


From __peter__ at web.de  Sat Apr 22 14:33:56 2017
From: __peter__ at web.de (Peter Otten)
Date: Sat, 22 Apr 2017 20:33:56 +0200
Subject: textwrap.fill algorithm? (Difference with vim)
References: <slrnofku7s.j8n.mcepl@mitmanek.ceplovi.cz>
 <oddv1p$ov0$1@blaine.gmane.org>
 <mailman.372.1492811658.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <slrnofl17e.d3u.mcepl@mitmanek.ceplovi.cz> <elvobbFeicbU1@mid.individual.net>
 <slrnofn6kf.ra0.mcepl@mitmanek.ceplovi.cz>
Message-ID: <odg7mf$428$1@blaine.gmane.org>

Mat?j Cepl wrote:

> On 2017-04-22, 01:01 GMT, Gregory Ewing wrote:
>> I don't know what vim is doing, but if you tell Python you
>> want lines no longer than 65 characters, it takes you at
>> your word.
> 
> Oh, I?ve got it. textwrap.fill() (only in Python 2.*?) completely
> sucks with bytes, because of course it counts every byte as
> separate character for purpose of counting. All the text must be
> converted into unicode. It would be probably nice, if the
> textwrap documentation mentioned it.

Yes, the documentation should warn about the limitations of textwrap's 
notion of width -- but still, the line you complained about

        10        20        30        40        50        60        70
123456789+123456789+123456789+123456789+123456789+123456789+123456789+12
It is necessary to issue this caution, for the popular mind has grown so

contains only ascii, so whether you count bytes or characters -- it's always 
72, not 65.



From skip.montanaro at gmail.com  Sat Apr 22 16:16:34 2017
From: skip.montanaro at gmail.com (Skip Montanaro)
Date: Sat, 22 Apr 2017 15:16:34 -0500
Subject: Metaclass conundrum - binding value from an outer scope
In-Reply-To: <odd10s$kmv$1@blaine.gmane.org>
References: <CANc-5Uxh9zBzW3yDYb0DVrb_XHXwLm9-hkt4O1k79dWbeo4bGQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <odb54v$uut$1@blaine.gmane.org>
 <CANc-5UyRZUp1_D=Wka78tXZDHxE46bsgq+KLfVSG9+QHUUWeVw@mail.gmail.com>
 <odd10s$kmv$1@blaine.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <CANc-5UzK1u56p2whKBDwrKR-wLYj2KngyNGyeVVD2_8T6FVDBg@mail.gmail.com>

> Another round, this time with a metaclass. As you have found partial() does
> not work as a method because it's not a descriptor (i. e. no __get__()
> method). Instead you can try a closure:
>
> def make_method(a):
>     underlying = getattr(SomeOtherClass, a)
>     @functools.wraps(underlying)
>     def _meth(self, *args, **kw):
>         return underlying(self._instance, *args, **kw)
>     return _meth
>
> class SomeMeta(type):
>     def __new__(cls, name, parents, dct):
>         for a in dir(SomeOtherClass):
>             if a[0] == "_": continue
>             dct[a] = make_method(a)
>         return super(SomeMeta, cls).__new__(cls, name, parents, dct)

Dang, Peter... That looks like it will do exactly what I need. Here's
help on SomeOtherClass with its one method:

class SomeOtherClass(__builtin__.object)
 |  Methods defined here:
 |
 |  meth1(self)
 |      meth1 doc
 ...

And, here's SomeClass (__metaclass__ = SomeMeta), which defines meth2,
but steals meth1 from SomeOtherClass:

class SomeClass(__builtin__.object)
 |  Methods defined here:
 |
 |  meth1(self, *args, **kw)
 |      meth1 doc
 |
 |  meth2(self)
 |      meth2 doc
 ...

With a bit of introspection in make_method (or an extension of
functools.wraps), I can probably make SomeClass.meth1 have the same
signature as SomeOtherClass.meth1.

Thx,

Skip


From mikhailwas at gmail.com  Sat Apr 22 17:13:26 2017
From: mikhailwas at gmail.com (Mikhail V)
Date: Sat, 22 Apr 2017 23:13:26 +0200
Subject: Rawest raw string literals
In-Reply-To: <odao9l$jh3$1@blaine.gmane.org>
References: <CAE6NSRB8wAJJ-M6_C4h21SOdGatC7Deh4RTx_+abgJm7H6DykA@mail.gmail.com>
 <odalsr$and$1@blaine.gmane.org>
 <CAE6NSRDag_y8Q+h+g-4aut60BFcyLZR82CJ-wbnQE8NdNbsw9g@mail.gmail.com>
 <odao9l$jh3$1@blaine.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <CAE6NSRAJM1Ga3YFWd3zZWa+=VBcZHt+4t=0avLgKJ51KHyrVpQ@mail.gmail.com>

On 20 April 2017 at 18:40, Grant Edwards <grant.b.edwards at gmail.com> wrote:
> On 2017-04-20, Mikhail V <mikhailwas at gmail.com> wrote:
>> On 20 April 2017 at 17:59, Grant Edwards <grant.b.edwards at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> On 2017-04-20, Mikhail V <mikhailwas at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> Quite often I need raw string literals for concatenating console commands.
>>>> I want to input them exactly as they are in python sources.
>>>>
>>>> There is r"" string, but it is obviously not enough because e.g. this:
>>>> s = r"ffmpeg -i  "\\server-01\D\SER_Bigl.mpg" "
>>>
>>>    s = r'ffmpeg -i  "\\server-01\D\SER_Bigl.mpg" '
>>>
>>> Does that do what you want?
>>
>> Yes but it still needs to watch out if there is no ' inside or vice
>> versa with " characters if use r"". I would like a universal
>> solution.
>
> IOW, you want something that just reads your mind.
>
> How can there exist a "universal solution" even in theory?
>
> There has to be some sort of "end of literal" terminator character
> sequence.  That means there has to be some sort of escaping mechanism
> when that "end of literal" sequence appears in the literal itself.
>

In *theory* one can define what characters can be part of the raw string.
In Python e.g. the newline character cannot be part of
the r"" string (unless a line ends with \):

k = r"abc
      def"

gives an error:

    k = r"abc
            ^
SyntaxError: EOL while scanning string literal

So one could define a rule, that a raw string *must*
be terminated by the sequence quote + newline.
In theory.


Mikhail


From __peter__ at web.de  Sat Apr 22 17:14:54 2017
From: __peter__ at web.de (Peter Otten)
Date: Sat, 22 Apr 2017 23:14:54 +0200
Subject: Metaclass conundrum - binding value from an outer scope
References: <CANc-5Uxh9zBzW3yDYb0DVrb_XHXwLm9-hkt4O1k79dWbeo4bGQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <odb54v$uut$1@blaine.gmane.org>
 <CANc-5UyRZUp1_D=Wka78tXZDHxE46bsgq+KLfVSG9+QHUUWeVw@mail.gmail.com>
 <odd10s$kmv$1@blaine.gmane.org>
 <CANc-5UzK1u56p2whKBDwrKR-wLYj2KngyNGyeVVD2_8T6FVDBg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <odgh4b$cp9$1@blaine.gmane.org>

Skip Montanaro wrote:

>> Another round, this time with a metaclass. As you have found partial()
>> does not work as a method because it's not a descriptor (i. e. no
>> __get__() method). Instead you can try a closure:
>>
>> def make_method(a):
>>     underlying = getattr(SomeOtherClass, a)
>>     @functools.wraps(underlying)
>>     def _meth(self, *args, **kw):
>>         return underlying(self._instance, *args, **kw)
>>     return _meth
>>
>> class SomeMeta(type):
>>     def __new__(cls, name, parents, dct):
>>         for a in dir(SomeOtherClass):
>>             if a[0] == "_": continue
>>             dct[a] = make_method(a)
>>         return super(SomeMeta, cls).__new__(cls, name, parents, dct)
> 
> Dang, Peter... That looks like it will do exactly what I need. Here's
> help on SomeOtherClass with its one method:
> 
> class SomeOtherClass(__builtin__.object)
>  |  Methods defined here:
>  |
>  |  meth1(self)
>  |      meth1 doc
>  ...
> 
> And, here's SomeClass (__metaclass__ = SomeMeta), which defines meth2,
> but steals meth1 from SomeOtherClass:
> 
> class SomeClass(__builtin__.object)
>  |  Methods defined here:
>  |
>  |  meth1(self, *args, **kw)
>  |      meth1 doc
>  |
>  |  meth2(self)
>  |      meth2 doc
>  ...
> 
> With a bit of introspection in make_method (or an extension of
> functools.wraps), I can probably make SomeClass.meth1 have the same
> signature as SomeOtherClass.meth1.
> 
> Thx,
> 
> Skip

In Python 3 you should see the correct signature, for Python 2 I think this 
addressed by Michele Simionato's

https://pypi.python.org/pypi/decorator
http://pythonhosted.org/decorator/documentation.html#id8

module.



From mcepl at cepl.eu  Sat Apr 22 17:15:32 2017
From: mcepl at cepl.eu (=?UTF-8?Q?Mat=C4=9Bj?= Cepl)
Date: Sat, 22 Apr 2017 23:15:32 +0200
Subject: textwrap.fill algorithm? (Difference with vim)
References: <slrnofku7s.j8n.mcepl@mitmanek.ceplovi.cz>
 <oddv1p$ov0$1@blaine.gmane.org>
 <mailman.372.1492811658.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <slrnofl17e.d3u.mcepl@mitmanek.ceplovi.cz>
 <elvobbFeicbU1@mid.individual.net>
 <slrnofn6kf.ra0.mcepl@mitmanek.ceplovi.cz> <odg7mf$428$1@blaine.gmane.org>
 <mailman.393.1492886048.2951.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <slrnofnhvk.gum.mcepl@mitmanek.ceplovi.cz>

On 2017-04-22, 18:33 GMT, Peter Otten wrote:
> Yes, the documentation should warn about the limitations of 
> textwrap's notion of width -- but still, the line you 
> complained about

Perhaps, I have screwed up somewhere, but I am glad we were able 
to figure it out.

Thank you for your patience,

Mat?j

-- 
https://matej.ceplovi.cz/blog/, Jabber: mcepl at ceplovi.cz
GPG Finger: 3C76 A027 CA45 AD70 98B5  BC1D 7920 5802 880B C9D8
 
Of course I'm respectable. I'm old. Politicians, ugly buildings,
and whores all get respectable if they last long enough.
      --John Huston in "Chinatown."


From rosuav at gmail.com  Sat Apr 22 17:19:07 2017
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Sun, 23 Apr 2017 07:19:07 +1000
Subject: Rawest raw string literals
In-Reply-To: <CAE6NSRAJM1Ga3YFWd3zZWa+=VBcZHt+4t=0avLgKJ51KHyrVpQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAE6NSRB8wAJJ-M6_C4h21SOdGatC7Deh4RTx_+abgJm7H6DykA@mail.gmail.com>
 <odalsr$and$1@blaine.gmane.org>
 <CAE6NSRDag_y8Q+h+g-4aut60BFcyLZR82CJ-wbnQE8NdNbsw9g@mail.gmail.com>
 <odao9l$jh3$1@blaine.gmane.org>
 <CAE6NSRAJM1Ga3YFWd3zZWa+=VBcZHt+4t=0avLgKJ51KHyrVpQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmrJAFPz3DpZU__eyv0cZHio7anJH7jps4qOABhn26oKRw@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Apr 23, 2017 at 7:13 AM, Mikhail V <mikhailwas at gmail.com> wrote:
> So one could define a rule, that a raw string *must*
> be terminated by the sequence quote + newline.
> In theory.

Then how would you pass one as a function parameter?

func(r"...."
)

Ugh. Ugly.

ChrisA


From python.list at tim.thechases.com  Sat Apr 22 17:28:22 2017
From: python.list at tim.thechases.com (Tim Chase)
Date: Sat, 22 Apr 2017 16:28:22 -0500
Subject: Rawest raw string literals
In-Reply-To: <CAE6NSRAJM1Ga3YFWd3zZWa+=VBcZHt+4t=0avLgKJ51KHyrVpQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAE6NSRB8wAJJ-M6_C4h21SOdGatC7Deh4RTx_+abgJm7H6DykA@mail.gmail.com>
 <odalsr$and$1@blaine.gmane.org>
 <CAE6NSRDag_y8Q+h+g-4aut60BFcyLZR82CJ-wbnQE8NdNbsw9g@mail.gmail.com>
 <odao9l$jh3$1@blaine.gmane.org>
 <CAE6NSRAJM1Ga3YFWd3zZWa+=VBcZHt+4t=0avLgKJ51KHyrVpQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20170422162822.1e9f7692@bigbox.christie.dr>

On 2017-04-22 23:13, Mikhail V wrote:
> k = r"abc
>       def"
> 
> gives an error:
> 
>     k = r"abc
>             ^
> SyntaxError: EOL while scanning string literal
> 
> So one could define a rule, that a raw string *must*
> be terminated by the sequence quote + newline.
> In theory.

Though one can do

  k = r"""abc
     def
     ghi
     jkl
     mno
     pqrs
     \tuv
     wxyz
     """


which keeps the "\" while allowing multi-line strings.

-tkc





From mikhailwas at gmail.com  Sat Apr 22 18:30:41 2017
From: mikhailwas at gmail.com (Mikhail V)
Date: Sun, 23 Apr 2017 00:30:41 +0200
Subject: String escaping utility for Python (was: Rawest raw string literals)
Message-ID: <CAE6NSRCd69Azjy+6mc9mYMkVRWrZt0yjaK0uay2WxwFOiVz02Q@mail.gmail.com>

On 20 April 2017 at 23:54, MRAB <python at mrabarnett.plus.com> wrote:
> On 2017-04-20 22:03, Mikhail V wrote:
>>
>> On 20 April 2017 at 22:43, Random832 <random832 at fastmail.com> wrote:
>>> [snip]
>>>
>>> The best solution I can think of is to have a text editor designed to
>>> parse a string literal, spawn a nested editor with the unescaped
>>> contents of that string literal, and then re-escape it back to place in
>>> the code. If we had that, then we wouldn't even need raw strings.
>>
>>
>> Yes exactly, it would be cool to have such a satellite app
>> which can escape and unescape strings according to rules.
>> And which can also convert unicode literals to their ascii
>> analogues and back on the fly, this would very useful
>> for programming.
>> Probably it is a good idea to even include such thing
>> in Python package. So it would be a small standalone app
>> running parallel with text editor making it to copy paste strings.
>>
> I'm sure it's possible in, say, Emacs.
>
> The editor that I use (EditPad Pro) can call external tools, so I could:
>
> 1. Select the string literal (easy when it is syntax-aware, so I can select
> all of the literal with 2 keypresses).
>
> 2. Call the external tool (1 keypress), to open, say, a simple tkinter app.
>
> 3. Edit the unescaped text (unescape with ast.literal_eval, re-escape with
> 'ascii').
>
> 4. Close the external tool, and the selection is replaced.

I have done a quick google search and could not find
such utility for Python.

I am very interested in having such utility.
And I think it would be fair that such utility
should be made by the Python team so that
all syntax nuances will be correctly implemented.

The purpose is simple: reduce manual work to escape special
characters in string literals (and escape non-ASCII characters).

Simple usage scenario:
- I have a long command-line string in some text editor.
- Copy this string and paste into the utility edit box
- In the second edit box same string with escaped characters
  appears (i.e tab becomes \t, etc)
- Further, if I edit the text in the second edit box,
  an unescaped string appears in the first box.

Possible toggle options, e.g. :
- 'asciify' non-ascii characters

It could be not only useful to eliminate boilerplate typing,
but also a great way to learn string rules for Python learners.


PS:
Also I remember now about the python-ideas thread
on entering unicode characters with decimals instead of
hex values. It was met somewhat negatively but then it turned out
that in recent Python version it can be done with f-strings.
E.g. a string :

s="???"
one can write as:
s = f"{1072:c}{1073:c}{1074:c}"
instead of traditional hex:
"\u0430\u0431\u0432"

It was told however this is not normal usage.
Still I find it very helpful, so if this is correct syntax, I'd
personally find such a conversion option also very useful.


Mikhail


From rosuav at gmail.com  Sat Apr 22 18:48:58 2017
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Sun, 23 Apr 2017 08:48:58 +1000
Subject: String escaping utility for Python (was: Rawest raw string
 literals)
In-Reply-To: <CAE6NSRCd69Azjy+6mc9mYMkVRWrZt0yjaK0uay2WxwFOiVz02Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAE6NSRCd69Azjy+6mc9mYMkVRWrZt0yjaK0uay2WxwFOiVz02Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmp8c6QxnyqiDUCrsQgqgMYjbnM6W3r1rhjWGEj3Rkh3eg@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Apr 23, 2017 at 8:30 AM, Mikhail V <mikhailwas at gmail.com> wrote:
> The purpose is simple: reduce manual work to escape special
> characters in string literals (and escape non-ASCII characters).
>
> Simple usage scenario:
> - I have a long command-line string in some text editor.
> - Copy this string and paste into the utility edit box
> - In the second edit box same string with escaped characters
>   appears (i.e tab becomes \t, etc)
> - Further, if I edit the text in the second edit box,
>   an unescaped string appears in the first box.

Easy.

>>> input()
This string has "quotes" of 'various' ?styles?, and \backslashes\ too.
'This string has "quotes" of \'various\' ?styles?, and \\backslashes\\ too.'

The repr of a string does pretty much everything you want. If you want
a nice GUI, you can easily put one together that uses repr() to escape
and ast.literal_eval() to unescape.

> PS:
> Also I remember now about the python-ideas thread
> on entering unicode characters with decimals instead of
> hex values. It was met somewhat negatively but then it turned out
> that in recent Python version it can be done with f-strings.
> E.g. a string :
>
> s="???"
> one can write as:
> s = f"{1072:c}{1073:c}{1074:c}"
> instead of traditional hex:
> "\u0430\u0431\u0432"
>
> It was told however this is not normal usage.
> Still I find it very helpful, so if this is correct syntax, I'd
> personally find such a conversion option also very useful.

Most of the world finds the hex form MUCH more logical, since Unicode
is built around 16s and 256s and such. Please don't proliferate more
messes - currently, the only place I can think of where decimal is
supported is HTML character entities, and hex is equally supported
there.

Of course, the best way to represent most non-ASCII characters is as
themselves - s="???" from your example. The main exception is
combining characters and related incomplete forms, such as this table
of diacritical marks more-or-less lifted from an app of mine:

{
    "\\`":"\u0300","\\'":"\u0301","\\^":"\u0302","\\~":"\u0303",
    "\\-":"\u0304","\\@":"\u0306","\\.":"\u0307","\\\"":"\u0308",
    "\\o":"\u030A","\\=":"\u030B","\\v":"\u030C","\\<":"\u0326",
    "\\,":"\u0327","\\k":"\u0328",
}

All of them are in the 03xx range. Much easier than pointing out that
they're in the range 768 to 879. Please stick to hex.

ChrisA


From mikhailwas at gmail.com  Sat Apr 22 20:19:50 2017
From: mikhailwas at gmail.com (Mikhail V)
Date: Sun, 23 Apr 2017 02:19:50 +0200
Subject: String escaping utility for Python (was: Rawest raw string
 literals)
In-Reply-To: <CAPTjJmp8c6QxnyqiDUCrsQgqgMYjbnM6W3r1rhjWGEj3Rkh3eg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAE6NSRCd69Azjy+6mc9mYMkVRWrZt0yjaK0uay2WxwFOiVz02Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPTjJmp8c6QxnyqiDUCrsQgqgMYjbnM6W3r1rhjWGEj3Rkh3eg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAE6NSRDtxdJobeX3cpeez9JvtGdegQp5Re+mxt19xsTg0aqvcg@mail.gmail.com>

On 23 April 2017 at 00:48, Chris Angelico <rosuav at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Sun, Apr 23, 2017 at 8:30 AM, Mikhail V <mikhailwas at gmail.com> wrote:
>> The purpose is simple: reduce manual work to escape special
>> characters in string literals (and escape non-ASCII characters).
>>
>> Simple usage scenario:
>> - I have a long command-line string in some text editor.
>> - Copy this string and paste into the utility edit box
>> - In the second edit box same string with escaped characters
>>   appears (i.e tab becomes \t, etc)
>> - Further, if I edit the text in the second edit box,
>>   an unescaped string appears in the first box.
>
> Easy.
>
>>>> input()
> This string has "quotes" of 'various' ?styles?, and \backslashes\ too.
> 'This string has "quotes" of \'various\' ?styles?, and \\backslashes\\ too.'
>
> The repr of a string does pretty much everything you want. If you want
> a nice GUI, you can easily put one together that uses repr() to escape
> and ast.literal_eval() to unescape.

I am sorry, could you elaborate what have you shown here?
So in Python console I can become escaped string, but what
commands do you use? I never use Python console actually :/

And yes the idea is to have a nice GUI. And the idea is exactly opposite
to "everyone let's roll an own tool". Obviously I can spend day
or two and create such a tool, e.g. with PyQt.
But since the task is very common and quite unambiguos I think it is
a good reason for a standard official tool.


>
>> PS:
>> Also I remember now about the python-ideas thread
>> on entering unicode characters with decimals instead of
>> hex values. It was met somewhat negatively but then it turned out
>> that in recent Python version it can be done with f-strings.
>> E.g. a string :
>>
>> s="???"
>> one can write as:
>> s = f"{1072:c}{1073:c}{1074:c}"
>> instead of traditional hex:
>> "\u0430\u0431\u0432"
>>
>> It was told however this is not normal usage.
>> Still I find it very helpful, so if this is correct syntax, I'd
>> personally find such a conversion option also very useful.
>
> Most of the world finds the hex form MUCH more logical, since Unicode
> is built around 16s and 256s and such. Please don't proliferate more
> messes - currently, the only place I can think of where decimal is
> supported is HTML character entities, and hex is equally supported
> there.
>
> Of course, the best way to represent most non-ASCII characters is as
> themselves - s="???" from your example. The main exception is
> combining characters and related incomplete forms, such as this table
> of diacritical marks more-or-less lifted from an app of mine:
>
> {
>     "\\`":"\u0300","\\'":"\u0301","\\^":"\u0302","\\~":"\u0303",
>     "\\-":"\u0304","\\@":"\u0306","\\.":"\u0307","\\\"":"\u0308",
>     "\\o":"\u030A","\\=":"\u030B","\\v":"\u030C","\\<":"\u0326",
>     "\\,":"\u0327","\\k":"\u0328",
> }
>
> All of them are in the 03xx range. Much easier than pointing out that
> they're in the range 768 to 879. Please stick to hex.

I don't insist on decimals, I want to use decimals for my own pleasure
in own projects, may I?
And don't worry in my whole life I will not produce so many software
that will significantly increase the 'messes'.
(Anyway I've got used already to decimals somehow, ord(char), etc.,
so for me it's too late for the ugly hex)


Mikhail


From rosuav at gmail.com  Sat Apr 22 20:33:11 2017
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Sun, 23 Apr 2017 10:33:11 +1000
Subject: String escaping utility for Python (was: Rawest raw string
 literals)
In-Reply-To: <CAE6NSRDtxdJobeX3cpeez9JvtGdegQp5Re+mxt19xsTg0aqvcg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAE6NSRCd69Azjy+6mc9mYMkVRWrZt0yjaK0uay2WxwFOiVz02Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPTjJmp8c6QxnyqiDUCrsQgqgMYjbnM6W3r1rhjWGEj3Rkh3eg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAE6NSRDtxdJobeX3cpeez9JvtGdegQp5Re+mxt19xsTg0aqvcg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmrdBC0euLEQ=QQXa8_Ye_ti0CjN21BQfe-jn8fFhqu5fg@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Apr 23, 2017 at 10:19 AM, Mikhail V <mikhailwas at gmail.com> wrote:
> On 23 April 2017 at 00:48, Chris Angelico <rosuav at gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Sun, Apr 23, 2017 at 8:30 AM, Mikhail V <mikhailwas at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> The purpose is simple: reduce manual work to escape special
>>> characters in string literals (and escape non-ASCII characters).
>>>
>>> Simple usage scenario:
>>> - I have a long command-line string in some text editor.
>>> - Copy this string and paste into the utility edit box
>>> - In the second edit box same string with escaped characters
>>>   appears (i.e tab becomes \t, etc)
>>> - Further, if I edit the text in the second edit box,
>>>   an unescaped string appears in the first box.
>>
>> Easy.
>>
>>>>> input()
>> This string has "quotes" of 'various' ?styles?, and \backslashes\ too.
>> 'This string has "quotes" of \'various\' ?styles?, and \\backslashes\\ too.'
>>
>> The repr of a string does pretty much everything you want. If you want
>> a nice GUI, you can easily put one together that uses repr() to escape
>> and ast.literal_eval() to unescape.
>
> I am sorry, could you elaborate what have you shown here?
> So in Python console I can become escaped string, but what
> commands do you use? I never use Python console actually :/

You type "input()" at the Python console, then type the string you
want. It will be echoed back in representation form, with everything
correctly escaped.

> And yes the idea is to have a nice GUI. And the idea is exactly opposite
> to "everyone let's roll an own tool". Obviously I can spend day
> or two and create such a tool, e.g. with PyQt.
> But since the task is very common and quite unambiguos I think it is
> a good reason for a standard official tool.

Or you could spend two seconds firing up the Python REPL, which has
all the tools you need right there :)

>>> PS:
>>> Also I remember now about the python-ideas thread
>>> on entering unicode characters with decimals instead of
>>> hex values. It was met somewhat negatively but then it turned out
>>> that in recent Python version it can be done with f-strings.
>>> E.g. a string :
>>>
>>> s="???"
>>> one can write as:
>>> s = f"{1072:c}{1073:c}{1074:c}"
>>> instead of traditional hex:
>>> "\u0430\u0431\u0432"
>>>
>>> It was told however this is not normal usage.
>>> Still I find it very helpful, so if this is correct syntax, I'd
>>> personally find such a conversion option also very useful.
>>
>> Most of the world finds the hex form MUCH more logical, since Unicode
>> is built around 16s and 256s and such. Please don't proliferate more
>> messes - currently, the only place I can think of where decimal is
>> supported is HTML character entities, and hex is equally supported
>> there.
>>
>> Of course, the best way to represent most non-ASCII characters is as
>> themselves - s="???" from your example. The main exception is
>> combining characters and related incomplete forms, such as this table
>> of diacritical marks more-or-less lifted from an app of mine:
>>
>> {
>>     "\\`":"\u0300","\\'":"\u0301","\\^":"\u0302","\\~":"\u0303",
>>     "\\-":"\u0304","\\@":"\u0306","\\.":"\u0307","\\\"":"\u0308",
>>     "\\o":"\u030A","\\=":"\u030B","\\v":"\u030C","\\<":"\u0326",
>>     "\\,":"\u0327","\\k":"\u0328",
>> }
>>
>> All of them are in the 03xx range. Much easier than pointing out that
>> they're in the range 768 to 879. Please stick to hex.
>
> I don't insist on decimals, I want to use decimals for my own pleasure
> in own projects, may I?
> And don't worry in my whole life I will not produce so many software
> that will significantly increase the 'messes'.
> (Anyway I've got used already to decimals somehow, ord(char), etc.,
> so for me it's too late for the ugly hex)

Will your projects ever be shared with anyone else? If so, please use
the standard. In your own projects, you're welcome to shoot yourself
in the foot, but I'm not going to help you. I'm going to encourage hex
for Unicode.

It's not too late for you to adjust your mind to the standard. And I
strongly recommend it. There are good reasons for hex, and the sooner
you change, the easier it'll be.

ChrisA


From mikhailwas at gmail.com  Sat Apr 22 22:06:34 2017
From: mikhailwas at gmail.com (Mikhail V)
Date: Sun, 23 Apr 2017 04:06:34 +0200
Subject: String escaping utility for Python (was: Rawest raw string
 literals)
In-Reply-To: <CAPTjJmrdBC0euLEQ=QQXa8_Ye_ti0CjN21BQfe-jn8fFhqu5fg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAE6NSRCd69Azjy+6mc9mYMkVRWrZt0yjaK0uay2WxwFOiVz02Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPTjJmp8c6QxnyqiDUCrsQgqgMYjbnM6W3r1rhjWGEj3Rkh3eg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAE6NSRDtxdJobeX3cpeez9JvtGdegQp5Re+mxt19xsTg0aqvcg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPTjJmrdBC0euLEQ=QQXa8_Ye_ti0CjN21BQfe-jn8fFhqu5fg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAE6NSRCy6kvwJ8RBZyhOHQt8_Mdb+Gigafs1O2ZAm=4RUBnDPQ@mail.gmail.com>

On 23 April 2017 at 02:33, Chris Angelico <rosuav at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Sun, Apr 23, 2017 at 10:19 AM, Mikhail V <mikhailwas at gmail.com> wrote:
>> On 23 April 2017 at 00:48, Chris Angelico <rosuav at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> On Sun, Apr 23, 2017 at 8:30 AM, Mikhail V <mikhailwas at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> The purpose is simple: reduce manual work to escape special
>>>> characters in string literals (and escape non-ASCII characters).
>>>>
>>>> Simple usage scenario:
>>>> - I have a long command-line string in some text editor.
>>>> - Copy this string and paste into the utility edit box
>>>> - In the second edit box same string with escaped characters
>>>>   appears (i.e tab becomes \t, etc)
>>>> - Further, if I edit the text in the second edit box,
>>>>   an unescaped string appears in the first box.
>>>
>>> Easy.
>>>
>>>>>> input()
>>> This string has "quotes" of 'various' ?styles?, and \backslashes\ too.
>>> 'This string has "quotes" of \'various\' ?styles?, and \\backslashes\\ too.'
>>>
>>> The repr of a string does pretty much everything you want. If you want
>>> a nice GUI, you can easily put one together that uses repr() to escape
>>> and ast.literal_eval() to unescape.
>>
>> I am sorry, could you elaborate what have you shown here?
>> So in Python console I can become escaped string, but what
>> commands do you use? I never use Python console actually :/
>
> You type "input()" at the Python console, then type the string you
> want. It will be echoed back in representation form, with everything
> correctly escaped.
>
>> And yes the idea is to have a nice GUI. And the idea is exactly opposite
>> to "everyone let's roll an own tool". Obviously I can spend day
>> or two and create such a tool, e.g. with PyQt.
>> But since the task is very common and quite unambiguos I think it is
>> a good reason for a standard official tool.
>
> Or you could spend two seconds firing up the Python REPL, which has
> all the tools you need right there :)
>

Don't know, all I see is "SyntaxError: invalid syntax" if I paste
there some text.
Try to paste e.g. this:
"ffmpeg -i "D:\VIDEO\exp\intro.mp4" -vf "crop=1280:720:0:40,
scale=640:360" -pix_fmt yuv420p  "D:\ART\0MASTER_UMST\yt_pico.mp4""

But are you joking, right? Even if it worked, how can this be convinient,
e.g. in console one cannot even select and copy paste easily.

Probably one can make a python script which takes clipboard contents
then place the conversion result back to clipboard.
Like:
- copy some text to clipboard
- run the script, which replace the clipboard contents with result
- paste text

I haven't tried that, but even this would be very inconvenient and
limited in comparison
to a GUI utility.


Mikhail


From rosuav at gmail.com  Sat Apr 22 22:12:37 2017
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Sun, 23 Apr 2017 12:12:37 +1000
Subject: String escaping utility for Python (was: Rawest raw string
 literals)
In-Reply-To: <CAE6NSRCy6kvwJ8RBZyhOHQt8_Mdb+Gigafs1O2ZAm=4RUBnDPQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAE6NSRCd69Azjy+6mc9mYMkVRWrZt0yjaK0uay2WxwFOiVz02Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPTjJmp8c6QxnyqiDUCrsQgqgMYjbnM6W3r1rhjWGEj3Rkh3eg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAE6NSRDtxdJobeX3cpeez9JvtGdegQp5Re+mxt19xsTg0aqvcg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPTjJmrdBC0euLEQ=QQXa8_Ye_ti0CjN21BQfe-jn8fFhqu5fg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAE6NSRCy6kvwJ8RBZyhOHQt8_Mdb+Gigafs1O2ZAm=4RUBnDPQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmq7HrQgZd0X3BeXu-hhj8R6XmxvM5YreLCcq3Jc2ms_xA@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Apr 23, 2017 at 12:06 PM, Mikhail V <mikhailwas at gmail.com> wrote:
> Don't know, all I see is "SyntaxError: invalid syntax" if I paste
> there some text.
> Try to paste e.g. this:
> "ffmpeg -i "D:\VIDEO\exp\intro.mp4" -vf "crop=1280:720:0:40,
> scale=640:360" -pix_fmt yuv420p  "D:\ART\0MASTER_UMST\yt_pico.mp4""

Oh. I should have said that my example was for Python 3. If you're
using Python 2, use raw_input() instead. Or just switch to Python 3.

> But are you joking, right? Even if it worked, how can this be convinient,
> e.g. in console one cannot even select and copy paste easily.

Get a better console. Even in Windows, the default console is fully
capable of copying and pasting text, but you can do better than the
default. On every Linux desktop I've used, the console is beautifully
easy to use (GNOME, LXDE, Mate, Xfce, and probably a few others as
well).

> Probably one can make a python script which takes clipboard contents
> then place the conversion result back to clipboard.
> Like:
> - copy some text to clipboard
> - run the script, which replace the clipboard contents with result
> - paste text
>
> I haven't tried that, but even this would be very inconvenient and
> limited in comparison
> to a GUI utility.

You can do that too if you want to. I don't know how you'd do that
with tkinter, but it ought to be possible, and then you wouldn't need
any third party libraries.

ChrisA


From eryksun at gmail.com  Sat Apr 22 22:30:39 2017
From: eryksun at gmail.com (eryk sun)
Date: Sun, 23 Apr 2017 02:30:39 +0000
Subject: String escaping utility for Python (was: Rawest raw string
 literals)
In-Reply-To: <CAE6NSRCy6kvwJ8RBZyhOHQt8_Mdb+Gigafs1O2ZAm=4RUBnDPQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAE6NSRCd69Azjy+6mc9mYMkVRWrZt0yjaK0uay2WxwFOiVz02Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPTjJmp8c6QxnyqiDUCrsQgqgMYjbnM6W3r1rhjWGEj3Rkh3eg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAE6NSRDtxdJobeX3cpeez9JvtGdegQp5Re+mxt19xsTg0aqvcg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPTjJmrdBC0euLEQ=QQXa8_Ye_ti0CjN21BQfe-jn8fFhqu5fg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAE6NSRCy6kvwJ8RBZyhOHQt8_Mdb+Gigafs1O2ZAm=4RUBnDPQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CACL+1atFip798vZXZccvQD2=F=haG2faXwtaeaK0ZmMn310EUA@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Apr 23, 2017 at 2:06 AM, Mikhail V <mikhailwas at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> But are you joking, right? Even if it worked, how can this be convinient,
> e.g. in console one cannot even select and copy paste easily.

The X terminals that I've used make it easy to copy text to the
clipboard. For Windows, it's a pain prior to Windows 10 since the
legacy console only does rectangular selection. The Windows 10 console
does line-wrapped selection.


From rosuav at gmail.com  Sat Apr 22 22:37:36 2017
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Sun, 23 Apr 2017 12:37:36 +1000
Subject: String escaping utility for Python (was: Rawest raw string
 literals)
In-Reply-To: <CACL+1atFip798vZXZccvQD2=F=haG2faXwtaeaK0ZmMn310EUA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAE6NSRCd69Azjy+6mc9mYMkVRWrZt0yjaK0uay2WxwFOiVz02Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPTjJmp8c6QxnyqiDUCrsQgqgMYjbnM6W3r1rhjWGEj3Rkh3eg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAE6NSRDtxdJobeX3cpeez9JvtGdegQp5Re+mxt19xsTg0aqvcg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPTjJmrdBC0euLEQ=QQXa8_Ye_ti0CjN21BQfe-jn8fFhqu5fg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAE6NSRCy6kvwJ8RBZyhOHQt8_Mdb+Gigafs1O2ZAm=4RUBnDPQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CACL+1atFip798vZXZccvQD2=F=haG2faXwtaeaK0ZmMn310EUA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmptMPiXpuxFJQXO5fv6hHMN_bjfWbcrBEbFzCqD=u=Kbg@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Apr 23, 2017 at 12:30 PM, eryk sun <eryksun at gmail.com> wrote:
> The X terminals that I've used make it easy to copy text to the
> clipboard. For Windows, it's a pain prior to Windows 10 since the
> legacy console only does rectangular selection. The Windows 10 console
> does line-wrapped selection.

This is true, but if you're using Python for simple text manipulation
as I suggest here, rectangular selection is usually fine. At worst,
you have to rejoin the lines after you paste.

ChrisA


From python at mrabarnett.plus.com  Sat Apr 22 23:03:03 2017
From: python at mrabarnett.plus.com (MRAB)
Date: Sun, 23 Apr 2017 04:03:03 +0100
Subject: String escaping utility for Python (was: Rawest raw string
 literals)
In-Reply-To: <CAE6NSRCd69Azjy+6mc9mYMkVRWrZt0yjaK0uay2WxwFOiVz02Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAE6NSRCd69Azjy+6mc9mYMkVRWrZt0yjaK0uay2WxwFOiVz02Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <204577f5-9fc4-5b9e-db88-593212ff9775@mrabarnett.plus.com>

On 2017-04-22 23:30, Mikhail V wrote:
> On 20 April 2017 at 23:54, MRAB <python at mrabarnett.plus.com> wrote:
> > On 2017-04-20 22:03, Mikhail V wrote:
> >>
> >> On 20 April 2017 at 22:43, Random832 <random832 at fastmail.com> wrote:
> >>> [snip]
> >>>
> >>> The best solution I can think of is to have a text editor designed to
> >>> parse a string literal, spawn a nested editor with the unescaped
> >>> contents of that string literal, and then re-escape it back to place in
> >>> the code. If we had that, then we wouldn't even need raw strings.
> >>
> >>
> >> Yes exactly, it would be cool to have such a satellite app
> >> which can escape and unescape strings according to rules.
> >> And which can also convert unicode literals to their ascii
> >> analogues and back on the fly, this would very useful
> >> for programming.
> >> Probably it is a good idea to even include such thing
> >> in Python package. So it would be a small standalone app
> >> running parallel with text editor making it to copy paste strings.
> >>
> > I'm sure it's possible in, say, Emacs.
> >
> > The editor that I use (EditPad Pro) can call external tools, so I could:
> >
> > 1. Select the string literal (easy when it is syntax-aware, so I can select
> > all of the literal with 2 keypresses).
> >
> > 2. Call the external tool (1 keypress), to open, say, a simple tkinter app.
> >
> > 3. Edit the unescaped text (unescape with ast.literal_eval, re-escape with
> > 'ascii').
> >
> > 4. Close the external tool, and the selection is replaced.
>
> I have done a quick google search and could not find
> such utility for Python.
>
> I am very interested in having such utility.
> And I think it would be fair that such utility
> should be made by the Python team so that
> all syntax nuances will be correctly implemented.
>
> The purpose is simple: reduce manual work to escape special
> characters in string literals (and escape non-ASCII characters).
>
> Simple usage scenario:
> - I have a long command-line string in some text editor.
> - Copy this string and paste into the utility edit box
> - In the second edit box same string with escaped characters
>    appears (i.e tab becomes \t, etc)
> - Further, if I edit the text in the second edit box,
>    an unescaped string appears in the first box.
>
> Possible toggle options, e.g. :
> - 'asciify' non-ascii characters
>
> It could be not only useful to eliminate boilerplate typing,
> but also a great way to learn string rules for Python learners.
>
Here's a very simple tkinter GUI app. It only goes one way (plain to 
escaped (asciified)), but it shows what's possible with very little code.


#! python3.6
# -*- coding: utf-8 -*-
import tkinter as tk

class App(tk.Tk):
     def __init__(self):
         tk.Tk.__init__(self)
         self.title('Escaper')

         tk.Label(self, text='Plain string').pack()

         self.plain_box = tk.Text(self)
         self.plain_box.pack()
         self.plain_box.focus()

         tk.Label(self, text='Escaped string').pack()

         self.escaped_box = tk.Text(self)
         self.escaped_box.pack()

         self.after(100, self.on_tick)

     def on_tick(self):
         plain_string = self.plain_box.get('1.0', 'end')[ : -1]

         escaped_string = ascii(plain_string)

         self.escaped_box.delete('1.0', 'end')
         self.escaped_box.insert('1.0', escaped_string)

         self.after(100, self.on_tick)

App().mainloop()



From ben+python at benfinney.id.au  Sun Apr 23 00:00:16 2017
From: ben+python at benfinney.id.au (Ben Finney)
Date: Sun, 23 Apr 2017 14:00:16 +1000
Subject: OrderedDict with kwds
References: <AM4PR10MB148977577D9534144026FD88831A0@AM4PR10MB1489.EURPRD10.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
 <CAEfz+TwOYrEFz5fRiFg8KxmPCpm+F954shYKhmuO38pdxBODig@mail.gmail.com>
 <85tw5g7e6k.fsf@benfinney.id.au>
 <CAEfz+TwZkqQqA+5J9VgFhe8Azr-onDrJPDjXGPtB8fZFE0rayQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <85pog37oz3.fsf@benfinney.id.au>

INADA Naoki <songofacandy at gmail.com> writes:

> On Sat, Apr 22, 2017 at 10:41 PM, Ben Finney <ben+python at benfinney.id.au> wrote:
> > So, I would recommend continuing to code as though ?dict? is not
> > ordered, at least until a Python version is released with a clear
> > statement that ordering can be relied upon.
>
> While dict's order is implementation detail, keyword is ordered by
> language spec.

Ah, I had missed that distinction. Thank you for the explanation.

Yes, Python 3.6 keyword arguments now preserve the order from the
function call. Great!

-- 
 \       ?If you always want the latest and greatest, then you have to |
  `\          buy a new iPod at least once a year.? ?Steve Jobs, MSNBC |
_o__)                                             interview 2006-05-25 |
Ben Finney



From ben+python at benfinney.id.au  Sun Apr 23 00:17:53 2017
From: ben+python at benfinney.id.au (Ben Finney)
Date: Sun, 23 Apr 2017 14:17:53 +1000
Subject: OrderedDict with kwds
References: <AM4PR10MB148977577D9534144026FD88831A0@AM4PR10MB1489.EURPRD10.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
 <CACL+1asABpFkzU7o8FexYvdbc9FWgZJ3YjfSVr=oJHZGy0EF1g@mail.gmail.com>
 <AM4PR10MB1489C4674DD5FF670ED8B83D831D0@AM4PR10MB1489.EURPRD10.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
Message-ID: <85lgqr7o5q.fsf@benfinney.id.au>

Albert-Jan Roskam <sjeik_appie at hotmail.com> writes:

> The basic problem is that kwds is a regular, unordered dict [?]

(Albert, you are probably aware that the above passage is not what you
wrote. But your message shows it indistinguishable from your other text.

Please teach your email client to compose quoted material using
<URL:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Posting_style#Quoted_line_prefix> the
conventional line prefix of ?> ? ? and, if your email client can't be
taught to do that in plain text, please choose a better email client.)

> Yes, I realized this later that evening (probably thanks to can of
> cold beer :-)). But there is hope:
> https://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0468/ . Do you know if there
> is/will be a "from __future__" to backport that behavior? We're using
> Python 3.5 now.

The ?__future__? features are language features, and like other features
they do not get added retro-actively to an already released Python
version. So, Python 3.5 has a set of ?__future__? features that are the
only ones that will ever be in Python 3.5.

When a feature is added to ?__future__? it is to introduce a
backward-incompatible feature gradually, and like any feature is always
added as part of the development of Python versions. So, new features in
?__future__? will only appear in *not yet released* Python versions.

<URL:https://docs.python.org/3/library/__future__.html>

In short: To get the changed behaviour, you need a newer Python version.

-- 
 \         ?If you don't want your beliefs to be ridiculed, don't have |
  `\            such ridiculous beliefs.? ?Greta Christina, 2011-10-22 |
_o__)                                                                  |
Ben Finney



From tjreedy at udel.edu  Sun Apr 23 01:14:56 2017
From: tjreedy at udel.edu (Terry Reedy)
Date: Sun, 23 Apr 2017 01:14:56 -0400
Subject: Turtle window not closing
In-Reply-To: <odf24n$4p2$1@blaine.gmane.org>
References: <1091273730.6395991.1492824154078.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
 <1091273730.6395991.1492824154078@mail.yahoo.com>
 <odf24n$4p2$1@blaine.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <odhd8c$ruo$1@blaine.gmane.org>

On 4/22/2017 3:52 AM, Peter Otten wrote:
> Harshika Varadhan via Python-list wrote:

> Are you running your script from within IDLE? Try starting it from the
> command line instead.

> Like turtle IDLE itself is a program written in tkinter, and the separation
> between editer and user code is not always perfect.

By default (now), IDLE runs user code, which in this case includes the 
turtle and hence tkinter modules, in a separate process in which tkinter 
is NOT used by IDLE (except for an error exit message).  Making it 
possible to develop tkinter code with IDLE was a major reason for adding 
the two process mode.

That said, the separation cannot be perfect (only one process can have 
keyboard focus, for instance), and so in the absence of other ideas, I 
also sometimes recommend running from a command line.


-- 
Terry Jan Reedy



From __peter__ at web.de  Sun Apr 23 03:05:22 2017
From: __peter__ at web.de (Peter Otten)
Date: Sun, 23 Apr 2017 09:05:22 +0200
Subject: Turtle window not closing
References: <1806251782.6663000.1492873786434.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
 <1806251782.6663000.1492873786434@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <odhjnh$o44$1@blaine.gmane.org>

Harshika Varadhan via Python-list wrote:

> Thank you for your response. I apologize for that, this is my first time
> posting so I wasn't sure how to copy my code! I figured out that using the
> clear() method works for clearing the turtle window after drawing the game
> board, but now I am trying to figure out how to make the program wait a
> few seconds or wait for the user to press a key before clearing the turtle
> window (not closing the window, just clearing it). Is there any way to do
> this?

I experimented a bit and found the Screen.ontimer() and onkey() methods. 
Those take a function (a "callback") that will be executed after a certain 
time or when the specified key is pressed. Here are two simple example 
scripts:

demo_turtle_timer.py
# Draw a square, then remove it after two seconds
import turtle

def draw_board():
    myturtle.showturtle()

    # draw a square
    # replace with your code
    for i in range(4):
        myturtle.forward(100)
        myturtle.right(90)

def clear_board():
    myturtle.clear()
    myturtle.hideturtle()

myturtle = turtle.Turtle()
screen = turtle.Screen()

draw_board()

# clear board after 2 seconds
screen.ontimer(clear_board, 2000)

screen.mainloop()

demo_turtle_key.py
# Hit d to draw a square, then hit c to remove it
import turtle

def draw_board():
    myturtle.showturtle()

    # draw a square
    # replace with your code
    for i in range(4):
        myturtle.forward(100)
        myturtle.right(90)

def clear_board():
    myturtle.clear()
    myturtle.hideturtle()

myturtle = turtle.Turtle()
screen = turtle.Screen()

# invoke clear_board() when the c key is pressed
screen.onkey(clear_board, "c")

# invoke draw_board() when the d key is pressed
screen.onkey(draw_board, "d")

screen.listen()
screen.mainloop()




From ganesh1pal at gmail.com  Sun Apr 23 04:21:27 2017
From: ganesh1pal at gmail.com (Ganesh Pal)
Date: Sun, 23 Apr 2017 13:51:27 +0530
Subject: any suggestion on this code
Message-ID: <CACT3xuXCt1W8tR=RYC4ubpvw1kOW+=J3WEa5mA1XMfZO2-N5hw@mail.gmail.com>

Hello  Team,



I have a sample code that runs through the list of dictionary and return a
dictionary if the search  value matched



*Sample Program:*



#!/usr/bin/python



def return_matched_owner(dict_list,search_block):

    """Accepts a list of dictionary with owners and returns a dict if there
is a match"""

    try:

        x = next(item for item in dict_list if item.get("Block") ==
search_block)

    except StopIteration:

        return False

    return x





def main():

    dict_list = [{'real_owner': '1:0070', 'fake_owner': '121212aaa',
'Block': '121212121'},

                 {'real_owner': '1:0170', 'fake_owner': 'aaabbbb', 'Block':
'21115674'},

                 {'real_owner': '1:0120', 'fake_owner': 'accccb', 'Block':
'31115674'}]



    x =  return_matched_owner(dict_list,'31115674')

    print x

    if not x:

       assert False, "Error while getting owner"

    print "\n Matching owner found \n"





if __name__ == '__main__':

    main()





*Sample o/p:*



yy-1# python stack1.py

{'real_owner': '1:0120', 'fake_owner': 'accccb', 'Block': '31115674'}



 Matching owner found





Couple of question here :



1.      Any better suggestion to optimize the code  and any other
observations  around use of assert, generators  and are exception handled
correctly in  return_matched_owner()





Regards,

Ganesh


From j.clarke.873638 at gmail.com  Sun Apr 23 08:27:49 2017
From: j.clarke.873638 at gmail.com (J. Clarke)
Date: Sun, 23 Apr 2017 08:27:49 -0400
Subject: In Python and Windows environment how to supress certain key
 press and send some other key event for it
References: <CAL0E0u4fBjwp9toAy-8G57Lx9MuQdAR-=6S8fyaCtpq8VhkPUw@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.46.1491151672.2961.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <MPG.336667d06221b41e98abd1@news.eternal-september.org>

In article <mailman.46.1491151672.2961.python-list at python.org>, 
i.am.songoku at gmail.com says...
> 
> Hi All,
> 
> I was trying to build a VIM like shortcuts in windows. For example,
> 
> IF i press CAPSLOCK & h: It should "{Left}" move one to left. If CAPSLOCK &
> b: It should "{Ctrl Down}{Left}{Ctrl Up}" move one word left etc.
> 
> I was successful in sending the key event. I used libraries like,
> 
> 1. pynput
> 2. keyboard
> 
> for the same.
> 
> But i was unable to supress the Initial key event (ex: Caplock & h)
> 
> I tried using the keyboard to listen for key press events and supress them
> as below.
> 
> >>>>>
> import keyboard
> 
> def move_one_left():
>     """
>     Wrapper for CAPS LOCK + b. The function sends LEFT ARROW Event
>     :return:
>     """
>     keyboard.send(75)
> 
> def move_one_word_left():
>     """
>     Wrapper for CAPS LOCK + b. The function sends LEFT ARROW Event
>     :return:
>     """
>     keyboard.send('ctrl+left')
> 
> def main():
>     """
>     This is the main loop which reads the key pressed.
>     According to the hotkey registered the function hooked is called.
>     The corresponding function will be the wrapped combination send back.
>     For example: CAPS + b is wrapped to Moving to left.
>     The main loop exits when Ctrl + c is done. So that is not registered.
>     :return:
>     """
>     try:
>         # Start of the main loop
>         # Registering the hotkeys
>         # CAPS LOCK + H
>         keyboard.add_hotkey('caps lock+h', move_one_left, suppress=True)
>         # CAPS LOCK + B
>         keyboard.add_hotkey('caps lock+b', move_one_word_left,
> suppress=True)
> 
>         while True:
>             # Read the key pressed
>             print (keyboard.read_key())
>     except KeyboardInterrupt:
>         print("User has exited the program")
> 
> if __name__ == "__main__":
>     main()
> 
> <<<<<
> 
> 
> This is working for sending the event for key press but the initial
> keypress is also being send. The supress=True is not working.
> 
> Am I doing something wrong or is there any better way to supress the
> initial key event and send another key event in place of that.

<https://pypi.python.org/pypi/keyboard>

Check the "known limitations" section.



From python at mrabarnett.plus.com  Sun Apr 23 09:36:11 2017
From: python at mrabarnett.plus.com (MRAB)
Date: Sun, 23 Apr 2017 14:36:11 +0100
Subject: any suggestion on this code
In-Reply-To: <CACT3xuXCt1W8tR=RYC4ubpvw1kOW+=J3WEa5mA1XMfZO2-N5hw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CACT3xuXCt1W8tR=RYC4ubpvw1kOW+=J3WEa5mA1XMfZO2-N5hw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <42a32c14-3428-a149-cf8e-bf886d0c4d64@mrabarnett.plus.com>

On 2017-04-23 09:21, Ganesh Pal wrote:
> Hello  Team,
> 
> 
> I have a sample code that runs through the list of dictionary and return a
> dictionary if the search  value matched
> 
> 
> *Sample Program:*
> 
> 
> #!/usr/bin/python
> 
> 
> def return_matched_owner(dict_list,search_block):
> 
>      """Accepts a list of dictionary with owners and returns a dict if there
> is a match"""
> 
>      try:
> 
>          x = next(item for item in dict_list if item.get("Block") ==
> search_block)
> 
>      except StopIteration:
> 
>          return False
> 
>      return x
> 
> 
> def main():
> 
>      dict_list = [{'real_owner': '1:0070', 'fake_owner': '121212aaa',
> 'Block': '121212121'},
> 
>                   {'real_owner': '1:0170', 'fake_owner': 'aaabbbb', 'Block':
> '21115674'},
> 
>                   {'real_owner': '1:0120', 'fake_owner': 'accccb', 'Block':
> '31115674'}]
> 
> 
>      x =  return_matched_owner(dict_list,'31115674')
> 
>      print x
> 
>      if not x:
> 
>         assert False, "Error while getting owner"
> 
>      print "\n Matching owner found \n"
> 
> 
> if __name__ == '__main__':
> 
>      main()
> 
> 
> *Sample o/p:*
> 
> 
> yy-1# python stack1.py
> 
> {'real_owner': '1:0120', 'fake_owner': 'accccb', 'Block': '31115674'}
> 
> 
>   Matching owner found
> 
> 
> Couple of question here :
> 
> 
> 1.      Any better suggestion to optimize the code  and any other
> observations  around use of assert, generators  and are exception handled
> correctly in  return_matched_owner()
> 
If it's going to return a dict or something else, it's more usual for 
that "something else" to be None.

I think that the function is needlessly complicated and that this is better:


def return_matched_owner(dict_list,search_block):
      """Accepts a list of dictionary with owners and returns a dict if 
there is a match"""

     for item in dict_list:
         if item.get("Block") == search_block:
             return item

      return None


From mikhailwas at gmail.com  Sun Apr 23 12:02:57 2017
From: mikhailwas at gmail.com (Mikhail V)
Date: Sun, 23 Apr 2017 18:02:57 +0200
Subject: String escaping utility for Python (was: Rawest raw string
 literals)
In-Reply-To: <204577f5-9fc4-5b9e-db88-593212ff9775@mrabarnett.plus.com>
References: <CAE6NSRCd69Azjy+6mc9mYMkVRWrZt0yjaK0uay2WxwFOiVz02Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <204577f5-9fc4-5b9e-db88-593212ff9775@mrabarnett.plus.com>
Message-ID: <CAE6NSRBDWk0c_fQ_yxgg_2JE=zykswXK6h+3HHfQAh3RSMAoCA@mail.gmail.com>

On 23 April 2017 at 05:03, MRAB <python at mrabarnett.plus.com> wrote:
> On 2017-04-22 23:30, Mikhail V wrote:
>>
>> On 20 April 2017 at 23:54, MRAB <python at mrabarnett.plus.com> wrote:
>> > On 2017-04-20 22:03, Mikhail V wrote:
>> >>
>> >> On 20 April 2017 at 22:43, Random832 <random832 at fastmail.com> wrote:
>> >>> [snip]
>> >>>
>> >>> The best solution I can think of is to have a text editor designed to
>> >>> parse a string literal, spawn a nested editor with the unescaped
>> >>> contents of that string literal, and then re-escape it back to place
>> >>> in
>> >>> the code. If we had that, then we wouldn't even need raw strings.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Yes exactly, it would be cool to have such a satellite app
>> >> which can escape and unescape strings according to rules.
>> >> And which can also convert unicode literals to their ascii
>> >> analogues and back on the fly, this would very useful
>> >> for programming.
>> >> Probably it is a good idea to even include such thing
>> >> in Python package. So it would be a small standalone app
>> >> running parallel with text editor making it to copy paste strings.
>> >>
>> > I'm sure it's possible in, say, Emacs.
>> >
>> > The editor that I use (EditPad Pro) can call external tools, so I could:
>> >
>> > 1. Select the string literal (easy when it is syntax-aware, so I can
>> > select
>> > all of the literal with 2 keypresses).
>> >
>> > 2. Call the external tool (1 keypress), to open, say, a simple tkinter
>> > app.
>> >
>> > 3. Edit the unescaped text (unescape with ast.literal_eval, re-escape
>> > with
>> > 'ascii').
>> >
>> > 4. Close the external tool, and the selection is replaced.
>>
>> I have done a quick google search and could not find
>> such utility for Python.
>>
>> I am very interested in having such utility.
>> And I think it would be fair that such utility
>> should be made by the Python team so that
>> all syntax nuances will be correctly implemented.
>>
>> The purpose is simple: reduce manual work to escape special
>> characters in string literals (and escape non-ASCII characters).
>>
>> Simple usage scenario:
>> - I have a long command-line string in some text editor.
>> - Copy this string and paste into the utility edit box
>> - In the second edit box same string with escaped characters
>>    appears (i.e tab becomes \t, etc)
>> - Further, if I edit the text in the second edit box,
>>    an unescaped string appears in the first box.
>>
>> Possible toggle options, e.g. :
>> - 'asciify' non-ascii characters
>>
>> It could be not only useful to eliminate boilerplate typing,
>> but also a great way to learn string rules for Python learners.
>>
> Here's a very simple tkinter GUI app. It only goes one way (plain to escaped
> (asciified)), but it shows what's possible with very little code.
>
>
> #! python3.6
> # -*- coding: utf-8 -*-
> import tkinter as tk
>
> class App(tk.Tk):
>     def __init__(self):
>         tk.Tk.__init__(self)
>         self.title('Escaper')
>
>         tk.Label(self, text='Plain string').pack()
>
>         self.plain_box = tk.Text(self)
>         self.plain_box.pack()
>         self.plain_box.focus()
>
>         tk.Label(self, text='Escaped string').pack()
>
>         self.escaped_box = tk.Text(self)
>         self.escaped_box.pack()
>
>         self.after(100, self.on_tick)
>
>     def on_tick(self):
>         plain_string = self.plain_box.get('1.0', 'end')[ : -1]
>
>         escaped_string = ascii(plain_string)
>
>         self.escaped_box.delete('1.0', 'end')
>         self.escaped_box.insert('1.0', escaped_string)
>
>         self.after(100, self.on_tick)
>
> App().mainloop()
>

Thank you for sharing! Works fine on Win 7.
So that is what I mean, even such simple app is
uncomparably better that any workarounds and already
covers most cases.
Unfortunately I am not proficient in tkinter so I hope
that will gain some support from other folks and then
could be pinned somewhere and be accessible for
everyone.


Mikhail


From steve+python at pearwood.info  Sun Apr 23 14:29:30 2017
From: steve+python at pearwood.info (Steve D'Aprano)
Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2017 04:29:30 +1000
Subject: any suggestion on this code
References: <CACT3xuXCt1W8tR=RYC4ubpvw1kOW+=J3WEa5mA1XMfZO2-N5hw@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.413.1492935696.2951.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <58fcf28c$0$1606$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>

On Sun, 23 Apr 2017 06:21 pm, Ganesh Pal wrote:

> 1.      Any better suggestion to optimize the code  and any other
> observations  around use of assert, generators  and are exception handled
> correctly in  return_matched_owner()

When to use assert:

http://import-that.dreamwidth.org/676.html




-- 
Steve
?Cheer up,? they said, ?things could be worse.? So I cheered up, and sure
enough, things got worse.



From antoon.pardon at rece.vub.ac.be  Mon Apr 24 03:48:00 2017
From: antoon.pardon at rece.vub.ac.be (Antoon Pardon)
Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2017 09:48:00 +0200
Subject: Bigotry (you win, I give up)
In-Reply-To: <6c393b04-72aa-4583-95ec-c25a1029c345@googlegroups.com>
References: <85r30o9nnp.fsf@benfinney.id.au>
 <00d201d2b970$6e4c8530$27b23dae@sambora>
 <CAPjBxg_Y=GNObBnpzRN890c3iWvbbaoJnK-E4_9pGGKHRgt8rA@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.316.1492658583.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <94788997-2d7e-49da-9c3e-fb6debe1bc24@googlegroups.com>
 <8c5196c0-a629-2530-fc39-928ba2d2f9e7@rece.vub.ac.be>
 <mailman.357.1492765673.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <6c393b04-72aa-4583-95ec-c25a1029c345@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <68696867-327c-88fc-1207-73b91bb7ae71@rece.vub.ac.be>

Op 22-04-17 om 13:17 schreef Rustom Mody:
> On Friday, April 21, 2017 at 2:38:08 PM UTC+5:30, Antoon Pardon wrote:
>> Op 20-04-17 om 17:25 schreef Rustom Mody:
>>> But more importantly thank you for your polite and consistent pointing out to
>>> Ben Finney that his religion-bashing signature lines [many of them] and his 
>>> claims to wish this list be welcoming are way out of sync.
>> I don't know. I think a concept like welcoming is too complex, to draw such
>> simple conclusions. First of all we have to make a choice about the public we
>> want to be welcoming to. I'm rather confident we can agree we don't want to
>> be welcoming to bigots on this list.
>>
>> ...
> Generally agree
> [though I wonder how you will decide what constitutes a 'bigot'. Look at the
> suggestion in the very subject of these threads]

Well that's a tough one off course since research seems to suggest we are all
bigots to some degree. So if I see behaviour that looks biggoted, I tend to
wait to see how the person reacts after others have pointed out the possible
problematic nature of his behaviour.

Of course there is the problem of how sensitive we should all be. Is it so
problematic if I use an idiom like: "How could I have been so blind". Is
such an idiom really a slight vs blind people?

>> Do you think critising any idea in one's signature is enough to conclude that
>> this person doesn't wish this list to be welcoming?
> Lets try a thought-experiment:
> A: Islam is glorious
> B: Religion is garbage
> C: Christ is the best
>
> Will these statements get equal treatment as spam/as censure etc if they appear
> on this list?

That doesn't seem to be fair, since only one is being critical.

What about:
D: Homeopathy/Astrology is bunk.
E: Faith healing endangers the lives of children.
F: The earth is not flat.

There are people who may feel somewhat targetted with these
statements in someone's signature. Should we discourage people
from having such statements in their signatures?

Should such a statement be a reason to remove the message from
the mailing list?

> Note that from certain pov, religion-bashing or atheism-lauding are as
> much pushing some belief-system as pushing an (un)conventional religion
>
> More to the point will an anti-semitic view be treated with equal
> harshness to an anti-Islam/Palestine one?
> https://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-list/2017-April/720532.html
>
> Overall, even though it may be a blunt weapon: Why not just keep out utterly
> unrelated-to-python stuff?

I don't know, there seems to be a lot of unpythonic stuff to be going on
in the messages themselves. If that doesn't seem to be a problem, a
signature with unpythonic contend shouldn't be a problem.



From chenchao at inhand.com.cn  Mon Apr 24 05:45:11 2017
From: chenchao at inhand.com.cn (chenchao)
Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2017 05:45:11 -0400
Subject: How to port a python package to a embedded system
Message-ID: <36062e4a-1c40-cecd-7b43-aa007dcb1645@inhand.com.cn>

Hi, everybody:

      I have port python-2.7 to my arm board. But i don't know how to 
port a python package to my embedded system. For example, numpy pakage. 
Therefore, is there anybody know how to do this? Thanks!





From mal at europython.eu  Mon Apr 24 06:21:40 2017
From: mal at europython.eu (M.-A. Lemburg)
Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2017 12:21:40 +0200
Subject: EuroPython 2017: How you can sponsor us
Message-ID: <d00b308d-4321-7406-52fb-60c87ac9eda0@europython.eu>

Check out our brand new brochure with all details about our sponsor
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website.

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--------------------------------

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Enjoy,
--
EuroPython 2017 Team
http://ep2017.europython.eu/
http://www.europython-society.org/

PS: Please forward or retweet to help us reach all interested parties:
https://twitter.com/europython/status/856431067691089921
Thanks.


From bc at freeuk.com  Mon Apr 24 06:42:25 2017
From: bc at freeuk.com (bartc)
Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2017 11:42:25 +0100
Subject: Rosetta: Range extraction
In-Reply-To: <odkch2$gvr$1@gioia.aioe.org>
References: <odkch2$gvr$1@gioia.aioe.org>
Message-ID: <hEkLA.1238916$qK5.600272@fx45.am4>

On 24/04/2017 09:20, Robert L. wrote:

>> Create a function that takes a list of integers in increasing
>> order and returns a correctly formatted string in the range
>> format.
>>
>> Use the function to compute and print the range formatted
>> version of the following ordered list of integers. (The
>> correct answer is: 0-2,4,6-8,11,12,14-25,27-33,35-39.)
>>
>>     0,  1,  2,  4,  6,  7,  8, 11, 12, 14,
>>    15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24,
>>    25, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 35, 36,
>>    37, 38, 39
>
>
> list = [0,  1,  2,  4,  6,  7,  8, 11, 12, 14,
>   15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24,
>   25, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 35, 36,
>   37, 38, 39]
>
> old = list[0]
> list.slice_before{|n| [n-old>1,old=n][0]}.
> map{|a| a.size<3 ? a.join(",") : [a[0],a[-1]].join("-")}.
> join ","
>
>  ===>
> "0-2,4,6-8,11,12,14-25,27-33,35-39"

Is this supposed to be Python code? Because it doesn't seem to work. I 
thought it might use advanced Python features I didn't know about.

-- 
bartc

(Regarding this particular task, one of my languages has it built-in 
(for a 'set' object not a list):

  println [0,  1,  2,  4,  6,  7,  8, 11, 12, 14,
          15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24,
          25, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 35, 36,
          37, 38, 39]

Output is:

    [0..2,4,6..8,11..12,14..25,27..33,35..39]

It uses ".." rather than "-" so that the output is legal program syntax. 
35-39 would be interpreted as -4.)



From info at egenix.com  Mon Apr 24 07:25:45 2017
From: info at egenix.com (eGenix Team: M.-A. Lemburg)
Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2017 13:25:45 +0200
Subject: ANN: PyDDF Python Spring Sprint 2017
Message-ID: <acfc8399-a947-98f8-c259-dcac6a1adcae@egenix.com>

[This announcement is in German since it targets a Python sprint in
 D?sseldorf, Germany]

________________________________________________________________________
ANK?NDIGUNG

		  PyDDF Python Fr?hling-Sprint 2017
			    in D?sseldorf

		 Samstag, 06.05.2017, 10:00-18:00 Uhr
		 Sonntag, 07.05.2017, 10:00-18:00 Uhr

	trivago GmbH,  Karl-Arnold-Platz 1A,  40474 D?sseldorf


		      Python Meeting D?sseldorf
		     http://pyddf.de/sprint2017/

________________________________________________________________________
INFORMATION

Das Python Meeting D?sseldorf (PyDDF) veranstaltet mit freundlicher
Unterst?tzung der *trivago GmbH* ein Python Sprint Wochenende im
September.

Der Sprint findet am Wochenende 6./7.5.2017 in der trivago
Niederlassung am Karl-Arnold-Platz 1A statt (nicht am
Bennigsen-Platz 1).

Folgende Themengebiete haben wir als Anregung angedacht:


 * Openpyxl

   Openpyxl ist eine Python Bibliothek, mit der man Excel 2010+
   Dateien lesen und schreiben kann.

   Charlie Clark ist Co-Maintainer des Pakets.

 * Telegram-Bot

   Telegram ist eine Chat-Anwendung, die von vielen Nutzern verwendet
   wird. Telegram unterst?tzt das Registrieren von sogenannten Bots -
   kleinen Programmen, die man vom Chat aus ansteuern kann, um
   z.B. Informationen zu bekommen.

   Im Sprint wollen wir versuchen, einen Telegram-Bot in Python zu
   schreiben.

 * Jython (Python in Java implementiert)

   Stefan Richthofer, einer der Jython Core Entwickler, wird anwesend
   sein und ?ber ein Jython Thema sprinten, z.B.

   Using Jython:
    - Jython basics
    - Python/Java integration
    - GUI mit JavaFX in Python

   Developing Jython:
    - Jython internals
    - Bugfixes in Jython core - K?nnen wir ein paar echte Bugs beheben?

   Experimentelles (Was ist schon implementiert? Wir probieren es aus!):
    - JyNI
    - Jython 3

Nat?rlich kann jeder Teilnehmer weitere Themen vorschlagen, z.B.

 - RaspberryPi-Robot (einen Roboter mit einem Raspi ansteuern)
 - u.a.

Alles weitere und die Anmeldung findet Ihr auf der Sprint Seite:

    http://pyddf.de/sprint2017/

Teilnehmer sollten sich zudem auf der PyDDF Liste anmelden, da wir
uns dort koordinieren:

    https://www.egenix.com/mailman/listinfo/pyddf

________________________________________________________________________
?BER UNS

Das Python Meeting D?sseldorf (PyDDF) ist eine regelm??ige Veranstaltung
in D?sseldorf, die sich an Python Begeisterte aus der Region wendet:

 * http://pyddf.de/

Einen guten ?berblick ?ber die Vortr?ge bietet unser YouTube-Kanal,
auf dem wir die Vortr?ge nach den Meetings ver?ffentlichen:

 * http://www.youtube.com/pyddf/

Veranstaltet wird das Meeting von der eGenix.com GmbH, Langenfeld,
in Zusammenarbeit mit Clark Consulting & Research, D?sseldorf:

 * http://www.egenix.com/
 * http://www.clark-consulting.eu/

Mit freundlichen Gr??en,
-- 
Marc-Andre Lemburg
eGenix.com

Professional Python Services directly from the Experts (#1, Apr 24 2017)
>>> Python Projects, Coaching and Consulting ...  http://www.egenix.com/
>>> Python Database Interfaces ...           http://products.egenix.com/
>>> Plone/Zope Database Interfaces ...           http://zope.egenix.com/
________________________________________________________________________

::: We implement business ideas - efficiently in both time and costs :::

   eGenix.com Software, Skills and Services GmbH  Pastor-Loeh-Str.48
    D-40764 Langenfeld, Germany. CEO Dipl.-Math. Marc-Andre Lemburg
           Registered at Amtsgericht Duesseldorf: HRB 46611
               http://www.egenix.com/company/contact/
                      http://www.malemburg.com/



From prasenjit158 at gmail.com  Mon Apr 24 07:50:57 2017
From: prasenjit158 at gmail.com (Prasenjit Dutta)
Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2017 04:50:57 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: plot graph from data
Message-ID: <6db5b953-4cb1-45ac-a544-85baff045c31@googlegroups.com>

Hi All,

I have a exported data as below:

NAME                                 CPU %               MEM USAGE / LIMIT
goofy_wozniak                        0.53%               256.8 MiB / 7.64 GiB
kibana.1.i5shzj5kc7ck4x6s6s3m3wxjl   0.00%               597.2 MiB / 7.64 GiB
agitated_bhaskara                    0.00%               2.883 MiB / 7.64 GiB
influxsrv                            0.09%               21.83 MiB / 7.64 GiB
artifactoryTemp                      0.16%               866.7 MiB / 7.64 GiB
artifactory-5.0.0                    0.43%               548 MiB / 7.64 GiB
naughty_allen                        0.10%               94.55 MiB / 7.64 GiB
NAME                                 CPU %               MEM USAGE / LIMIT
goofy_wozniak                        0.53%               256.8 MiB / 7.64 GiB
kibana.1.i5shzj5kc7ck4x6s6s3m3wxjl   0.00%               597.2 MiB / 7.64 GiB
agitated_bhaskara                    0.00%               2.883 MiB / 7.64 GiB
influxsrv                            0.09%               21.83 MiB / 7.64 GiB
artifactoryTemp                      0.16%               866.7 MiB / 7.64 GiB
artifactory-5.0.0                    0.43%               548 MiB / 7.64 GiB
naughty_allen                        0.10%               94.55 MiB / 7.64 GiB
NAME                                 CPU %               MEM USAGE / LIMIT
goofy_wozniak                        0.53%               256.8 MiB / 7.64 GiB
kibana.1.i5shzj5kc7ck4x6s6s3m3wxjl   0.00%               597.2 MiB / 7.64 GiB
agitated_bhaskara                    0.00%               2.883 MiB / 7.64 GiB
influxsrv                            0.03%               21.83 MiB / 7.64 GiB
artifactoryTemp                      0.37%               866.7 MiB / 7.64 GiB
artifactory-5.0.0                    0.75%               548 MiB / 7.64 GiB
naughty_allen                        0.10%               94.55 MiB / 7.64 GiB
NAME                                 CPU %               MEM USAGE / LIMIT
goofy_wozniak                        1.30%               256.8 MiB / 7.64 GiB
kibana.1.i5shzj5kc7ck4x6s6s3m3wxjl   0.00%               597.2 MiB / 7.64 GiB
agitated_bhaskara                    0.00%               2.883 MiB / 7.64 GiB
influxsrv                            0.03%               21.83 MiB / 7.64 GiB
artifactoryTemp                      0.37%               866.7 MiB / 7.64 GiB
artifactory-5.0.0                    0.75%               548 MiB / 7.64 GiB
naughty_allen                        0.28%               94.55 MiB / 7.64 GiB


Want to plot graph from this. Issue what i am facing is header name "NAME                                 CPU %               MEM USAGE / LIMIT" repeating in between and also data is in text not in csv/xls

Can anyone help?

Thanks,
Prasenjit


From id23092 at gmail.com  Mon Apr 24 08:10:04 2017
From: id23092 at gmail.com (id23092 at gmail.com)
Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2017 14:10:04 +0200
Subject: Inheritance in Python
Message-ID: <ab5216a2-d751-c11a-2fa0-49731c2919d1@gmail.com>

I do not quite understand how inheritance works in Python.
I use python 3.6.1.
Let say I have a directory structure /a, /b. These two paths described 
in main class.
The second class describes additional structure in one of the main 
structures, say on /b and it should look like this:
/b/id1
/b/id2
/b/id3
/b/id4

Here is what I try to do:

class mainCL():
     def __init__(self):
         self.path1 = "/a"
         self.path2 = "/b"

class secondCL(mainCL):
     def __init__(newID):
         self.pathID = self.path2+"/id"+str(newID)

# main part of the script
secondaryStructure = []
mainStructure = mainCL()
for id in range(0,3):
     secondaryStructure[id] = secondCL(id+1)

The error message tells that object secondCL does not have attribute path2.
How do I define class secondCL?
How to use attribute from class mainCL in class secondCL?
How to use class secondCL in a right way? Do I need to pass class mainCL 
as a parameter?




From steve+python at pearwood.info  Mon Apr 24 09:30:36 2017
From: steve+python at pearwood.info (Steve D'Aprano)
Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2017 23:30:36 +1000
Subject: Inheritance in Python
References: <ab5216a2-d751-c11a-2fa0-49731c2919d1@gmail.com>
 <mailman.427.1493035813.2951.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <58fdfdfc$0$1618$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>

On Mon, 24 Apr 2017 10:10 pm, id23092 at gmail.com wrote:

> I do not quite understand how inheritance works in Python.
[...]

> class mainCL():
>      def __init__(self):
>          self.path1 = "/a"
>          self.path2 = "/b"
> 
> class secondCL(mainCL):
>      def __init__(newID):
>          self.pathID = self.path2+"/id"+str(newID)

secondCL over-rides the __init__ method of mainCL and prevents it from
running.

If you want to overload a method, you have to ensure that the superclass
method is called. Do this instead:

class secondCL(mainCL):
    def __init__(self, newID):
        super().__init__(newID)
        self.pathID = self.path2 + "/id" + str(newID)



-- 
Steve
?Cheer up,? they said, ?things could be worse.? So I cheered up, and sure
enough, things got worse.



From breamoreboy at gmail.com  Mon Apr 24 10:21:51 2017
From: breamoreboy at gmail.com (breamoreboy at gmail.com)
Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2017 07:21:51 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: plot graph from data
In-Reply-To: <6db5b953-4cb1-45ac-a544-85baff045c31@googlegroups.com>
References: <6db5b953-4cb1-45ac-a544-85baff045c31@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <fe25d1a4-cbe7-4df4-b96e-d663188159c7@googlegroups.com>

On Monday, April 24, 2017 at 12:51:26 PM UTC+1, Prasenjit Dutta wrote:
> Hi All,
> 
> I have a exported data as below:
> 
>  [2J [HNAME                                 CPU %               MEM USAGE / LIMIT
> goofy_wozniak                        0.53%               256.8 MiB / 7.64 GiB
> kibana.1.i5shzj5kc7ck4x6s6s3m3wxjl   0.00%               597.2 MiB / 7.64 GiB
> agitated_bhaskara                    0.00%               2.883 MiB / 7.64 GiB
> influxsrv                            0.09%               21.83 MiB / 7.64 GiB
> artifactoryTemp                      0.16%               866.7 MiB / 7.64 GiB
> artifactory-5.0.0                    0.43%               548 MiB / 7.64 GiB
> naughty_allen                        0.10%               94.55 MiB / 7.64 GiB
>  [2J [HNAME                                 CPU %               MEM USAGE / LIMIT
> goofy_wozniak                        0.53%               256.8 MiB / 7.64 GiB
> kibana.1.i5shzj5kc7ck4x6s6s3m3wxjl   0.00%               597.2 MiB / 7.64 GiB
> agitated_bhaskara                    0.00%               2.883 MiB / 7.64 GiB
> influxsrv                            0.09%               21.83 MiB / 7.64 GiB
> artifactoryTemp                      0.16%               866.7 MiB / 7.64 GiB
> artifactory-5.0.0                    0.43%               548 MiB / 7.64 GiB
> naughty_allen                        0.10%               94.55 MiB / 7.64 GiB
>  [2J [HNAME                                 CPU %               MEM USAGE / LIMIT
> goofy_wozniak                        0.53%               256.8 MiB / 7.64 GiB
> kibana.1.i5shzj5kc7ck4x6s6s3m3wxjl   0.00%               597.2 MiB / 7.64 GiB
> agitated_bhaskara                    0.00%               2.883 MiB / 7.64 GiB
> influxsrv                            0.03%               21.83 MiB / 7.64 GiB
> artifactoryTemp                      0.37%               866.7 MiB / 7.64 GiB
> artifactory-5.0.0                    0.75%               548 MiB / 7.64 GiB
> naughty_allen                        0.10%               94.55 MiB / 7.64 GiB
>  [2J [HNAME                                 CPU %               MEM USAGE / LIMIT
> goofy_wozniak                        1.30%               256.8 MiB / 7.64 GiB
> kibana.1.i5shzj5kc7ck4x6s6s3m3wxjl   0.00%               597.2 MiB / 7.64 GiB
> agitated_bhaskara                    0.00%               2.883 MiB / 7.64 GiB
> influxsrv                            0.03%               21.83 MiB / 7.64 GiB
> artifactoryTemp                      0.37%               866.7 MiB / 7.64 GiB
> artifactory-5.0.0                    0.75%               548 MiB / 7.64 GiB
> naughty_allen                        0.28%               94.55 MiB / 7.64 GiB
> 
> 
> Want to plot graph from this. Issue what i am facing is header name " [2J [HNAME                                 CPU %               MEM USAGE / LIMIT" repeating in between and also data is in text not in csv/xls
> 
> Can anyone help?
> 
> Thanks,
> Prasenjit

Open the file, loop to read it line by line and ignore any lines holding the header.  It seems to be fixed width data so it should be easy be read the data taking slices of the line and using string methods, maybe a regex if you prefer that kind of thing.  matplotlib https://matplotlib.org/ will do the plotting. 

Kindest regards.

Mark Lawrence.


From walters.justin01 at gmail.com  Mon Apr 24 11:47:58 2017
From: walters.justin01 at gmail.com (justin walters)
Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2017 08:47:58 -0700
Subject: How to port a python package to a embedded system
In-Reply-To: <36062e4a-1c40-cecd-7b43-aa007dcb1645@inhand.com.cn>
References: <36062e4a-1c40-cecd-7b43-aa007dcb1645@inhand.com.cn>
Message-ID: <CAO1D73EDXinxCutP-HQ0ATv3fVkUYvqq7ZztG_OWhrTGvNnQMw@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Apr 24, 2017 at 2:45 AM, chenchao <chenchao at inhand.com.cn> wrote:

> Hi, everybody:
>
>      I have port python-2.7 to my arm board. But i don't know how to port
> a python package to my embedded system. For example, numpy pakage.
> Therefore, is there anybody know how to do this? Thanks!
>
>
>
> --
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
>

Could you be a bit more specific?

When you say: " I have port python-2.7 to my arm board.", it could mean:

* You want to run a CPython interpreter on an ARM chip
* You want to compile your Python code into a binary executable for ARM
chips
* Something entirely different

You also say that you need to port numpy. Numpy itself consists of a heck
of a lot of C,
so you will need to compile that with ARM as your target.


From torriem at gmail.com  Mon Apr 24 12:14:26 2017
From: torriem at gmail.com (Michael Torrie)
Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2017 10:14:26 -0600
Subject: How to port a python package to a embedded system
In-Reply-To: <36062e4a-1c40-cecd-7b43-aa007dcb1645@inhand.com.cn>
References: <36062e4a-1c40-cecd-7b43-aa007dcb1645@inhand.com.cn>
Message-ID: <716b158b-2082-da86-b55f-7d55d3d38a79@gmail.com>

On 04/24/2017 03:45 AM, chenchao wrote:
> Hi, everybody:
> 
>       I have port python-2.7 to my arm board. But i don't know how to 
> port a python package to my embedded system. For example, numpy pakage. 
> Therefore, is there anybody know how to do this? Thanks!

Are you running a Linux distro on a board like the Raspberry Pi or the
Beaglebone Black?  Or are you talking about something like MicroPython
running on bare metal?



From ubatool at ufl.edu  Mon Apr 24 13:41:33 2017
From: ubatool at ufl.edu (ubatool at ufl.edu)
Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2017 10:41:33 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Trying to run a program within a python script on multiple output
 files creating by the same script
Message-ID: <fde4f013-3168-481a-8176-8ad5c8d70d49@googlegroups.com>

I'm writing a script that takes two command line options, a file containing barcodes and a file containing sequences. I've managed to create output files for each barcode with the matching and corresponding sequences in it.

For the next part of my script, I'm trying to create more output files by using the output files creating earlier as input files. So my first output files contains sequences in a simple format. Now each needs to be converted to fasta, then used mafft and quicktree commands on them.

However, this part only converts one of the original output files into fasta, running mafft and quicktree on that one. 

#!/usr/bin/python

import sys
import os


fname           = sys.argv[2]
barcodefname  = sys.argv[1]

barcodefile = open(barcodefname, "r")
for barcode in barcodefile:
        barcode = barcode.strip()
        print "barcode: %s" %  barcode
        infname = "%s.%s" % (fname,barcode)
        inf = open(infname, "w")
        handle1 = open(fname, "r")
        for lines in handle1:
                seqid = lines[0:3]
                i = 4
                potential_barcode = lines[i:(i+len(barcode))]
                if potential_barcode == barcode:
                        outseq = lines[i+len(barcode):]
                        sys.stdout.write(outseq)
                        inf.write("%s %s%s" % (seqid,barcode,outseq))
        handle1.close()
        inf.close()
barcodefile.close()

infname    = "%s.%s" %(fname,barcode)
fastafname = infname + ".fasta"
mafftfname = fastafname + ".mafft"
stfname    = infname + ".stock"


# convert simple to fasta #
for file in infname
        handle = open(infname, "r")
        outf   = open(fastafname, "w")
        for line in handle:
                linearr = line.split()
                seqids = linearr[0]
                seq   = linearr[1]
                outf.write(">%s\n%s\n" % (seqids,seq))
        handle.close()
        outf.close()


# align using mafft #


cmd = "mafft %s > %s" % (fastafname,mafftfname)
sys.stderr.write("command: %s\n" % cmd)
os.system(cmd)
sys.stderr.write("command done\n")


#convert fasta alignment to stockholm
# fasta_to_stockholm seq.data.txt.fasta.mafft > TEST.stockholm
cmd = "fasta_to_stockholm %s > %s" % (mafftfname, stfname)
sys.stderr.write("command: %s\n" % cmd)
os.system(cmd)
sys.stderr.write("command done\n")


#run quicktree to get distance matrix
# quicktree -out m TEST.stockholm
cmd = "quicktree -out m %s" % stfname
sys.stderr.write("Command: %s\n" % cmd)
os.system(cmd)
sys.stderr.write("command done\n")



From __peter__ at web.de  Mon Apr 24 14:44:04 2017
From: __peter__ at web.de (Peter Otten)
Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2017 20:44:04 +0200
Subject: Trying to run a program within a python script on multiple output
 files creating by the same script
References: <fde4f013-3168-481a-8176-8ad5c8d70d49@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <odlh1j$jhu$1@blaine.gmane.org>

ubatool at ufl.edu wrote:

> I'm writing a script that takes two command line options, a file
> containing barcodes and a file containing sequences. I've managed to
> create output files for each barcode with the matching and corresponding
> sequences in it.
> 
> For the next part of my script, I'm trying to create more output files by
> using the output files creating earlier as input files. So my first output
> files contains sequences in a simple format. Now each needs to be
> converted to fasta, then used mafft and quicktree commands on them.
> 
> However, this part only converts one of the original output files into
> fasta, running mafft and quicktree on that one.

You need to make the conversions while you're in the 'for barcode ...' loop.
To make that as simple as possible put the code for one conversion into a 
function, e. g.

> cmd = "mafft %s > %s" % (fastafname,mafftfname)
> sys.stderr.write("command: %s\n" % cmd)
> os.system(cmd)
> sys.stderr.write("command done\n")

may become (all code untested)

def fasta_to_mafft(infile, outfile):
    cmd = "mafft %s > %s" % (infile, outfile)
    print >> sys.stderr, "running", cmd
    os.system(cmd)

> #!/usr/bin/python
> 
> import sys
> import os
> 
> 
> fname           = sys.argv[2]
> barcodefname  = sys.argv[1]
> 
> barcodefile = open(barcodefname, "r")
> for barcode in barcodefile:
>         barcode = barcode.strip()
>         print "barcode: %s" %  barcode
>         infname = "%s.%s" % (fname,barcode)
>         inf = open(infname, "w")
>         handle1 = open(fname, "r")
>         for lines in handle1:
>                 seqid = lines[0:3]
>                 i = 4
>                 potential_barcode = lines[i:(i+len(barcode))]
>                 if potential_barcode == barcode:
>                         outseq = lines[i+len(barcode):]
>                         sys.stdout.write(outseq)
>                         inf.write("%s %s%s" % (seqid,barcode,outseq))
>         handle1.close()
>         inf.close()

At this point infname has the correct value, the file of that name exists, 
so you can perform your conversions

          simple_to_fasta(infname, infname + ".fasta")
          fasta_to_mafft(infname + ".fasta", infname + ".mafft")
          ...

Using functions has the big advantage that you can test them individually 
before putting them all together, and you can replace one implementation 
with a better one without touching the rest of your code.

> barcodefile.close()
> 
> infname    = "%s.%s" %(fname,barcode)
> fastafname = infname + ".fasta"
> mafftfname = fastafname + ".mafft"
> stfname    = infname + ".stock"
> 
> 
> # convert simple to fasta #
> for file in infname
>         handle = open(infname, "r")
>         outf   = open(fastafname, "w")
>         for line in handle:
>                 linearr = line.split()
>                 seqids = linearr[0]
>                 seq   = linearr[1]
>                 outf.write(">%s\n%s\n" % (seqids,seq))
>         handle.close()
>         outf.close()
> 
> 
> # align using mafft #
> 
> 
> cmd = "mafft %s > %s" % (fastafname,mafftfname)
> sys.stderr.write("command: %s\n" % cmd)
> os.system(cmd)
> sys.stderr.write("command done\n")
> 
> 
> #convert fasta alignment to stockholm
> # fasta_to_stockholm seq.data.txt.fasta.mafft > TEST.stockholm
> cmd = "fasta_to_stockholm %s > %s" % (mafftfname, stfname)
> sys.stderr.write("command: %s\n" % cmd)
> os.system(cmd)
> sys.stderr.write("command done\n")
> 
> 
> #run quicktree to get distance matrix
> # quicktree -out m TEST.stockholm
> cmd = "quicktree -out m %s" % stfname
> sys.stderr.write("Command: %s\n" % cmd)
> os.system(cmd)
> sys.stderr.write("command done\n")




From ubatool at ufl.edu  Mon Apr 24 15:16:34 2017
From: ubatool at ufl.edu (Unaiza Batool)
Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2017 12:16:34 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Trying to run a program within a python script on multiple output
 files creating by the same script
In-Reply-To: <mailman.433.1493059465.2951.python-list@python.org>
References: <fde4f013-3168-481a-8176-8ad5c8d70d49@googlegroups.com>
 <odlh1j$jhu$1@blaine.gmane.org>
 <mailman.433.1493059465.2951.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <0f52e4d4-78fe-4ac5-858e-88a117849d35@googlegroups.com>

On Monday, April 24, 2017 at 2:44:38 PM UTC-4, Peter Otten wrote:
> ubatool at ufl.edu wrote:
> 
> > I'm writing a script that takes two command line options, a file
> > containing barcodes and a file containing sequences. I've managed to
> > create output files for each barcode with the matching and corresponding
> > sequences in it.
> > 
> > For the next part of my script, I'm trying to create more output files by
> > using the output files creating earlier as input files. So my first output
> > files contains sequences in a simple format. Now each needs to be
> > converted to fasta, then used mafft and quicktree commands on them.
> > 
> > However, this part only converts one of the original output files into
> > fasta, running mafft and quicktree on that one.
> 
> You need to make the conversions while you're in the 'for barcode ...' loop.
> To make that as simple as possible put the code for one conversion into a 
> function, e. g.
> 
> > cmd = "mafft %s > %s" % (fastafname,mafftfname)
> > sys.stderr.write("command: %s\n" % cmd)
> > os.system(cmd)
> > sys.stderr.write("command done\n")
> 
> may become (all code untested)
> 
> def fasta_to_mafft(infile, outfile):
>     cmd = "mafft %s > %s" % (infile, outfile)
>     print >> sys.stderr, "running", cmd
>     os.system(cmd)
> 
> > #!/usr/bin/python
> > 
> > import sys
> > import os
> > 
> > 
> > fname           = sys.argv[2]
> > barcodefname  = sys.argv[1]
> > 
> > barcodefile = open(barcodefname, "r")
> > for barcode in barcodefile:
> >         barcode = barcode.strip()
> >         print "barcode: %s" %  barcode
> >         infname = "%s.%s" % (fname,barcode)
> >         inf = open(infname, "w")
> >         handle1 = open(fname, "r")
> >         for lines in handle1:
> >                 seqid = lines[0:3]
> >                 i = 4
> >                 potential_barcode = lines[i:(i+len(barcode))]
> >                 if potential_barcode == barcode:
> >                         outseq = lines[i+len(barcode):]
> >                         sys.stdout.write(outseq)
> >                         inf.write("%s %s%s" % (seqid,barcode,outseq))
> >         handle1.close()
> >         inf.close()
> 
> At this point infname has the correct value, the file of that name exists, 
> so you can perform your conversions
> 
>           simple_to_fasta(infname, infname + ".fasta")
>           fasta_to_mafft(infname + ".fasta", infname + ".mafft")
>           ...

i'm confused here as the script gives an error saying simple_to_fasta and fasta_to_mafft are not defined. How do I combine the part of infile, outfile with the conversion. You said it should go in the for barcode loop? Or just it just go after infname has it's correct value or just before each command when the new output file is needed?
> 
> Using functions has the big advantage that you can test them individually 
> before putting them all together, and you can replace one implementation 
> with a better one without touching the rest of your code.
> 
> > barcodefile.close()
> > 
> > infname    = "%s.%s" %(fname,barcode)
> > fastafname = infname + ".fasta"
> > mafftfname = fastafname + ".mafft"
> > stfname    = infname + ".stock"
> > 
> > 
> > # convert simple to fasta #
> > for file in infname
> >         handle = open(infname, "r")
> >         outf   = open(fastafname, "w")
> >         for line in handle:
> >                 linearr = line.split()
> >                 seqids = linearr[0]
> >                 seq   = linearr[1]
> >                 outf.write(">%s\n%s\n" % (seqids,seq))
> >         handle.close()
> >         outf.close()
> > 
> > 
> > # align using mafft #
> > 
> > 
> > cmd = "mafft %s > %s" % (fastafname,mafftfname)
> > sys.stderr.write("command: %s\n" % cmd)
> > os.system(cmd)
> > sys.stderr.write("command done\n")
> > 
> > 
> > #convert fasta alignment to stockholm
> > # fasta_to_stockholm seq.data.txt.fasta.mafft > TEST.stockholm
> > cmd = "fasta_to_stockholm %s > %s" % (mafftfname, stfname)
> > sys.stderr.write("command: %s\n" % cmd)
> > os.system(cmd)
> > sys.stderr.write("command done\n")
> > 
> > 
> > #run quicktree to get distance matrix
> > # quicktree -out m TEST.stockholm
> > cmd = "quicktree -out m %s" % stfname
> > sys.stderr.write("Command: %s\n" % cmd)
> > os.system(cmd)
> > sys.stderr.write("command done\n")



From __peter__ at web.de  Mon Apr 24 15:51:38 2017
From: __peter__ at web.de (Peter Otten)
Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2017 21:51:38 +0200
Subject: Trying to run a program within a python script on multiple output
 files creating by the same script
References: <fde4f013-3168-481a-8176-8ad5c8d70d49@googlegroups.com>
 <odlh1j$jhu$1@blaine.gmane.org>
 <mailman.433.1493059465.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <0f52e4d4-78fe-4ac5-858e-88a117849d35@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <odll08$r95$1@blaine.gmane.org>

Unaiza Batool wrote:

> i'm confused here as the script gives an error saying simple_to_fasta and
> fasta_to_mafft are not defined. 

You have to write this functions yourself (I gave one example) and make sure 
that they are defined before the 'for barcode' loop.

> How do I combine the part of infile,
> outfile with the conversion. You said it should go in the for barcode
> loop? Or just it just go after infname has it's correct value or just
> before each command when the new output file is needed?

A sketch of the final script (pseudo code, not runnable Python):

for barcode in barcodes
    write simple file
    convert simple file to fasta
    convert fasta file to mafft
    etc

To illustrate the idea here's a runnable example that reads words from a 
file into individual files, then converts them to upper case, then 
intersperses them with "-":

$ ls
demo.py  words.txt
$ cat words.txt
the
quick
brown
fox
$ cat demo.py
def convert_to_upper(infile, outfile):
    with open(infile) as instream:
        with open(outfile, "w") as outstream:
            outstream.write(instream.read().upper())

def convert_to_interspersed(infile, outfile):
    with open(infile) as instream:
        with open(outfile, "w") as outstream:
            outstream.write("-".join(instream.read()))

with open("words.txt") as words:
    for word in words:
        word = word.strip()
        filename = word
        with open(filename, "w") as f:
            f.write(word)
        convert_to_upper(filename, filename + ".upper")
        convert_to_interspersed(
            filename + ".upper",
            filename + ".interspersed"
        )
$ python demo.py
$ ls
brown               fox               quick.interspersed  the.upper
brown.interspersed  fox.interspersed  quick.upper         words.txt
brown.upper         fox.upper         the
demo.py             quick             the.interspersed
$ cat quick.interspersed 
Q-U-I-C-K$ 




From ubatool at ufl.edu  Mon Apr 24 16:53:56 2017
From: ubatool at ufl.edu (Unaiza Batool)
Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2017 13:53:56 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Trying to run a program within a python script on multiple output
 files creating by the same script
In-Reply-To: <mailman.434.1493063517.2951.python-list@python.org>
References: <fde4f013-3168-481a-8176-8ad5c8d70d49@googlegroups.com>
 <odlh1j$jhu$1@blaine.gmane.org>
 <mailman.433.1493059465.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <0f52e4d4-78fe-4ac5-858e-88a117849d35@googlegroups.com>
 <odll08$r95$1@blaine.gmane.org>
 <mailman.434.1493063517.2951.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <7e667f18-f862-45c2-815b-a7115280bc40@googlegroups.com>

On Monday, April 24, 2017 at 3:52:09 PM UTC-4, Peter Otten wrote:
> Unaiza Batool wrote:
> 
> > i'm confused here as the script gives an error saying simple_to_fasta and
> > fasta_to_mafft are not defined. 
> 
> You have to write this functions yourself (I gave one example) and make sure 
> that they are defined before the 'for barcode' loop.
> 
> > How do I combine the part of infile,
> > outfile with the conversion. You said it should go in the for barcode
> > loop? Or just it just go after infname has it's correct value or just
> > before each command when the new output file is needed?
> 
> A sketch of the final script (pseudo code, not runnable Python):
> 
> for barcode in barcodes
>     write simple file
>     convert simple file to fasta
>     convert fasta file to mafft
>     etc
> 
> To illustrate the idea here's a runnable example that reads words from a 
> file into individual files, then converts them to upper case, then 
> intersperses them with "-":
> 
> $ ls
> demo.py  words.txt
> $ cat words.txt
> the
> quick
> brown
> fox
> $ cat demo.py
> def convert_to_upper(infile, outfile):
>     with open(infile) as instream:
>         with open(outfile, "w") as outstream:
>             outstream.write(instream.read().upper())
> 
> def convert_to_interspersed(infile, outfile):
>     with open(infile) as instream:
>         with open(outfile, "w") as outstream:
>             outstream.write("-".join(instream.read()))
> 
> with open("words.txt") as words:
>     for word in words:
>         word = word.strip()
>         filename = word
>         with open(filename, "w") as f:
>             f.write(word)
>         convert_to_upper(filename, filename + ".upper")
>         convert_to_interspersed(
>             filename + ".upper",
>             filename + ".interspersed"
>         )
> $ python demo.py
> $ ls
> brown               fox               quick.interspersed  the.upper
> brown.interspersed  fox.interspersed  quick.upper         words.txt
> brown.upper         fox.upper         the
> demo.py             quick             the.interspersed
> $ cat quick.interspersed 
> Q-U-I-C-K$



Oh my god, thank you so much. You have no idea how much you literally saved my life. Pretty much all I changed was increasing indentation on everything to make sure it's within the for barcode in barcodefile loop and now my script is running for all output files! 


From cfkaran2 at gmail.com  Mon Apr 24 18:24:17 2017
From: cfkaran2 at gmail.com (CFK)
Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2017 18:24:17 -0400
Subject: Battle of the garbage collectors, or ARGGHHHHHH!!!!
Message-ID: <CAENTz_XOrrRJYCJJ_vLef+gZoPO-w-9WCKt5Qo7LJejAe7_Fkg@mail.gmail.com>

TLDR version: the bdwgc garbage collector (http://www.hboehm.info/gc/) and
python's collector are not playing nice with one another, and I need to
make them work with each other.

Long version: I'm trying to write bindings for python via ctypes to control
a library written in C that uses the bdwgc garbage collector (
http://www.hboehm.info/gc/).  The bindings mostly work, except for when
either bdwgc or python's garbage collector decide to get into an argument
over what is garbage and what isn't, in which case I get a segfault because
one or the other collector has already reaped the memory.  I need the two
sides to play nice with one another.  I can think of two solutions:

First, I can replace Python's garbage collector via the functions described
at https://docs.python.org/3/c-api/memory.html#customize-memory-allocators
so that they use the bdwgc functions instead.  However, this leads me to a
whole series of questions:

   1. Has anyone done anything like this before?  Is there any reason to
   believe it won't work?
   2. Since I'm going through ctypes, the python interpreter will be up and
   running before my library's code will be called.  I'm guessing that this
   will lead to horribleness, but I'm hoping that python is able to do better
   than that somehow.

Second, is to hope that there is some way of getting memory from python,
use it in C, and let the python garbage collector deal with it (essentially
replacing bdwgc in the C code with python's garbage collector).

I don't have a great deal of hope for either method working, but I'm hoping
I'm wrong, and that someone can save me from the headaches I'm having.  Is
there hope, or am I stuck?


Thanks,

Cem Karan


From tjreedy at udel.edu  Mon Apr 24 18:59:32 2017
From: tjreedy at udel.edu (Terry Reedy)
Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2017 18:59:32 -0400
Subject: Battle of the garbage collectors, or ARGGHHHHHH!!!!
In-Reply-To: <CAENTz_XOrrRJYCJJ_vLef+gZoPO-w-9WCKt5Qo7LJejAe7_Fkg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAENTz_XOrrRJYCJJ_vLef+gZoPO-w-9WCKt5Qo7LJejAe7_Fkg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <odm00h$roo$1@blaine.gmane.org>

On 4/24/2017 6:24 PM, CFK wrote:
> TLDR version: the bdwgc garbage collector (http://www.hboehm.info/gc/) and
> python's collector are not playing nice with one another, and I need to
> make them work with each other.
> 
> Long version: I'm trying to write bindings for python via ctypes to control
> a library written in C that uses the bdwgc garbage collector (
> http://www.hboehm.info/gc/).  The bindings mostly work, except for when
> either bdwgc or python's garbage collector decide to get into an argument
> over what is garbage and what isn't, in which case I get a segfault because
> one or the other collector has already reaped the memory.  I need the two
> sides to play nice with one another.  I can think of two solutions:
> 
> First, I can replace Python's garbage collector via the functions described
> at https://docs.python.org/3/c-api/memory.html#customize-memory-allocators
> so that they use the bdwgc functions instead.  However, this leads me to a
> whole series of questions:
> 
>     1. Has anyone done anything like this before?

I know that experiments have been done.
Have you tried searching 'Python bdwgc garbage collection' or similar?

-- 
Terry Jan Reedy



From greg.ewing at canterbury.ac.nz  Mon Apr 24 19:13:29 2017
From: greg.ewing at canterbury.ac.nz (Gregory Ewing)
Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2017 11:13:29 +1200
Subject: Rosetta: Range extraction
In-Reply-To: <hEkLA.1238916$qK5.600272@fx45.am4>
References: <odkch2$gvr$1@gioia.aioe.org> <hEkLA.1238916$qK5.600272@fx45.am4>
Message-ID: <em7f4rFu4q5U1@mid.individual.net>

bartc wrote:
> On 24/04/2017 09:20, Robert L. wrote:
> 
>> old = list[0]
>> list.slice_before{|n| [n-old>1,old=n][0]}.
>> map{|a| a.size<3 ? a.join(",") : [a[0],a[-1]].join("-")}.
>> join ","
> 
> Is this supposed to be Python code?

I think it's Ruby. Maybe posted to the wrong group?

-- 
Greg


From cfkaran2 at gmail.com  Mon Apr 24 20:53:12 2017
From: cfkaran2 at gmail.com (Cem Karan)
Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2017 20:53:12 -0400
Subject: Battle of the garbage collectors, or ARGGHHHHHH!!!!
In-Reply-To: <odm00h$roo$1@blaine.gmane.org>
References: <CAENTz_XOrrRJYCJJ_vLef+gZoPO-w-9WCKt5Qo7LJejAe7_Fkg@mail.gmail.com>
 <odm00h$roo$1@blaine.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <D6E08499-E35A-4F67-8AF7-CAC4FB8AB2DE@gmail.com>


On Apr 24, 2017, at 6:59 PM, Terry Reedy <tjreedy at udel.edu> wrote:

> On 4/24/2017 6:24 PM, CFK wrote:
>> TLDR version: the bdwgc garbage collector (http://www.hboehm.info/gc/) and
>> python's collector are not playing nice with one another, and I need to
>> make them work with each other.
>> Long version: I'm trying to write bindings for python via ctypes to control
>> a library written in C that uses the bdwgc garbage collector (
>> http://www.hboehm.info/gc/).  The bindings mostly work, except for when
>> either bdwgc or python's garbage collector decide to get into an argument
>> over what is garbage and what isn't, in which case I get a segfault because
>> one or the other collector has already reaped the memory.  I need the two
>> sides to play nice with one another.  I can think of two solutions:
>> First, I can replace Python's garbage collector via the functions described
>> at https://docs.python.org/3/c-api/memory.html#customize-memory-allocators
>> so that they use the bdwgc functions instead.  However, this leads me to a
>> whole series of questions:
>>    1. Has anyone done anything like this before?
> 
> I know that experiments have been done.
> Have you tried searching 'Python bdwgc garbage collection' or similar?

I did google around a bit, but the results I found weren't relevant.  I was hoping someone else on the list had tried, and simply hadn't gotten around to posting about it anywhere yet.

Thanks,
Cem Karan

From jon+usenet at unequivocal.eu  Mon Apr 24 20:54:32 2017
From: jon+usenet at unequivocal.eu (Jon Ribbens)
Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2017 00:54:32 -0000 (UTC)
Subject: Battle of the garbage collectors, or ARGGHHHHHH!!!!
References: <CAENTz_XOrrRJYCJJ_vLef+gZoPO-w-9WCKt5Qo7LJejAe7_Fkg@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.435.1493072662.2951.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <slrnoft7o7.2ms.jon+usenet@sable.unequivocal.eu>

On 2017-04-24, CFK <cfkaran2 at gmail.com> wrote:
> Long version: I'm trying to write bindings for python via ctypes to control
> a library written in C that uses the bdwgc garbage collector (
> http://www.hboehm.info/gc/).  The bindings mostly work, except for when
> either bdwgc or python's garbage collector decide to get into an argument
> over what is garbage and what isn't, in which case I get a segfault because
> one or the other collector has already reaped the memory.

Make your Python C objects contain a pointer to a
GC_MALLOC_UNCOLLECTABLE block that contains a pointer to the
bwdgc object it's an interface to? And GC_FREE it in tp_dealloc?
Then bwdgc won't free any C memory that Python is referencing.


From breamoreboy at gmail.com  Mon Apr 24 21:41:19 2017
From: breamoreboy at gmail.com (breamoreboy at gmail.com)
Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2017 18:41:19 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Rosetta: Range extraction
In-Reply-To: <em7f4rFu4q5U1@mid.individual.net>
References: <odkch2$gvr$1@gioia.aioe.org> <hEkLA.1238916$qK5.600272@fx45.am4>
 <em7f4rFu4q5U1@mid.individual.net>
Message-ID: <76b878fa-19bb-4d01-bf1a-35880e5d1889@googlegroups.com>

On Tuesday, April 25, 2017 at 12:13:42 AM UTC+1, Gregory Ewing wrote:
> bartc wrote:
> > On 24/04/2017 09:20, Robert L. wrote:
> > 
> >> old = list[0]
> >> list.slice_before{|n| [n-old>1,old=n][0]}.
> >> map{|a| a.size<3 ? a.join(",") : [a[0],a[-1]].join("-")}.
> >> join ","
> > 
> > Is this supposed to be Python code?
> 
> I think it's Ruby. Maybe posted to the wrong group?
> 
> -- 
> Greg

Whatever the case his revolting antisemitic signatures are not welcome here.  I'll not repeat it here but you can see the original on gg that bartc has obviously snipped.

Kindest regards.

Mark Lawrence.


From chenchao at inhand.com.cn  Mon Apr 24 22:04:09 2017
From: chenchao at inhand.com.cn (chenchao)
Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2017 22:04:09 -0400
Subject: How to port a python package to a embedded system
In-Reply-To: <716b158b-2082-da86-b55f-7d55d3d38a79@gmail.com>
References: <36062e4a-1c40-cecd-7b43-aa007dcb1645@inhand.com.cn>
 <716b158b-2082-da86-b55f-7d55d3d38a79@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <387e0dd7-456e-44ba-d057-232c466e1891@inhand.com.cn>

Hi, everybody:

      I have x-compiled the cpython-2.7.10 and ported it on my ARM 
board(it is not the Raspberry Pi and the Beaglebone Black).  But now, I 
have to use numpy python package on my board. So how do i x-compile this 
package? Is there anybody know how to do this? Thanks!




From torriem at gmail.com  Mon Apr 24 22:34:19 2017
From: torriem at gmail.com (Michael Torrie)
Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2017 20:34:19 -0600
Subject: How to port a python package to a embedded system
In-Reply-To: <387e0dd7-456e-44ba-d057-232c466e1891@inhand.com.cn>
References: <36062e4a-1c40-cecd-7b43-aa007dcb1645@inhand.com.cn>
 <716b158b-2082-da86-b55f-7d55d3d38a79@gmail.com>
 <387e0dd7-456e-44ba-d057-232c466e1891@inhand.com.cn>
Message-ID: <e1734c93-f545-9725-c2b1-f2587a9b5938@gmail.com>

On 04/24/2017 08:04 PM, chenchao wrote:
> Hi, everybody:
> 
>       I have x-compiled the cpython-2.7.10 and ported it on my ARM 
> board(it is not the Raspberry Pi and the Beaglebone Black).  But now, I 
> have to use numpy python package on my board. So how do i x-compile this 
> package? Is there anybody know how to do this? Thanks!

Sorry but you'll have to be much more specific.  Are you running a
version of Linux?  If so, what version?






From torriem at gmail.com  Mon Apr 24 22:37:56 2017
From: torriem at gmail.com (Michael Torrie)
Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2017 20:37:56 -0600
Subject: How to port a python package to a embedded system
In-Reply-To: <387e0dd7-456e-44ba-d057-232c466e1891@inhand.com.cn>
References: <36062e4a-1c40-cecd-7b43-aa007dcb1645@inhand.com.cn>
 <716b158b-2082-da86-b55f-7d55d3d38a79@gmail.com>
 <387e0dd7-456e-44ba-d057-232c466e1891@inhand.com.cn>
Message-ID: <483ca02e-3972-8ff8-1894-c11cc34f09c3@gmail.com>

On 04/24/2017 08:04 PM, chenchao wrote:
> Hi, everybody:
> 
>       I have x-compiled the cpython-2.7.10 and ported it on my ARM 
> board(it is not the Raspberry Pi and the Beaglebone Black).  But now, I 
> have to use numpy python package on my board. So how do i x-compile this 
> package? Is there anybody know how to do this? Thanks!

Also what processor are you using?  Many ARM processors lack a floating
point unit, and if yours is one of those, then numpy will be of very
little use on that platform as it requires floating point in the CPU for
speed.



From chenchao at inhand.com.cn  Mon Apr 24 22:47:49 2017
From: chenchao at inhand.com.cn (chenchao)
Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2017 22:47:49 -0400
Subject: How to port a python package to a embedded system
In-Reply-To: <e1734c93-f545-9725-c2b1-f2587a9b5938@gmail.com>
References: <36062e4a-1c40-cecd-7b43-aa007dcb1645@inhand.com.cn>
 <716b158b-2082-da86-b55f-7d55d3d38a79@gmail.com>
 <387e0dd7-456e-44ba-d057-232c466e1891@inhand.com.cn>
 <e1734c93-f545-9725-c2b1-f2587a9b5938@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <7bfa1e66-f6e2-3da6-e51a-4bdc8047608d@inhand.com.cn>

Hi, everybody:

       I have x-compiled the cpython-2.7.10 and ported it on my ARM
board(it is not the Raspberry Pi and the Beaglebone Black).  But now, I
have to use numpy python package on my board. So how do i x-compile this
package? Is there anybody know how to do this? Thanks!

My embedded system version:
   h

My PC system is ubuntu10.04.


From chenchao at inhand.com.cn  Mon Apr 24 22:55:32 2017
From: chenchao at inhand.com.cn (chenchao)
Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2017 22:55:32 -0400
Subject: How to port a python package to a embedded system
In-Reply-To: <483ca02e-3972-8ff8-1894-c11cc34f09c3@gmail.com>
References: <36062e4a-1c40-cecd-7b43-aa007dcb1645@inhand.com.cn>
 <716b158b-2082-da86-b55f-7d55d3d38a79@gmail.com>
 <387e0dd7-456e-44ba-d057-232c466e1891@inhand.com.cn>
 <483ca02e-3972-8ff8-1894-c11cc34f09c3@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <903b1858-4c6a-449d-34af-1f83f0a58675@inhand.com.cn>

Hi, all:

     My board is the ARM Cortex-A8 processor and support  floating point 
arithmetic.

On 04/24/2017 10:37 PM, Michael Torrie wrote:
> On 04/24/2017 08:04 PM, chenchao wrote:
>> Hi, everybody:
>>
>>        I have x-compiled the cpython-2.7.10 and ported it on my ARM
>> board(it is not the Raspberry Pi and the Beaglebone Black).  But now, I
>> have to use numpy python package on my board. So how do i x-compile this
>> package? Is there anybody know how to do this? Thanks!
> Also what processor are you using?  Many ARM processors lack a floating
> point unit, and if yours is one of those, then numpy will be of very
> little use on that platform as it requires floating point in the CPU for
> speed.
>





From torriem at gmail.com  Mon Apr 24 23:39:52 2017
From: torriem at gmail.com (Michael Torrie)
Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2017 21:39:52 -0600
Subject: How to port a python package to a embedded system
In-Reply-To: <7bfa1e66-f6e2-3da6-e51a-4bdc8047608d@inhand.com.cn>
References: <36062e4a-1c40-cecd-7b43-aa007dcb1645@inhand.com.cn>
 <716b158b-2082-da86-b55f-7d55d3d38a79@gmail.com>
 <387e0dd7-456e-44ba-d057-232c466e1891@inhand.com.cn>
 <e1734c93-f545-9725-c2b1-f2587a9b5938@gmail.com>
 <7bfa1e66-f6e2-3da6-e51a-4bdc8047608d@inhand.com.cn>
Message-ID: <44da4d5f-ce7a-2f06-00fe-dd18ead08ef2@gmail.com>

On 04/24/2017 08:47 PM, chenchao wrote:
>        I have x-compiled the cpython-2.7.10 and ported it on my ARM
> board(it is not the Raspberry Pi and the Beaglebone Black).  But now, I
> have to use numpy python package on my board. So how do i x-compile this
> package? Is there anybody know how to do this? Thanks!
> 
> My embedded system version:
>    h
> 
> My PC system is ubuntu10.04.

I know it would be a bit slow, but it might be easiest to compile and
install numpy on the board itself using the normal tools (the same as
you'd build numpy on a PC).







From chenchao at inhand.com.cn  Tue Apr 25 02:28:29 2017
From: chenchao at inhand.com.cn (chenchao)
Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2017 02:28:29 -0400
Subject: How to port a python package to a embedded system
In-Reply-To: <44da4d5f-ce7a-2f06-00fe-dd18ead08ef2@gmail.com>
References: <36062e4a-1c40-cecd-7b43-aa007dcb1645@inhand.com.cn>
 <716b158b-2082-da86-b55f-7d55d3d38a79@gmail.com>
 <387e0dd7-456e-44ba-d057-232c466e1891@inhand.com.cn>
 <e1734c93-f545-9725-c2b1-f2587a9b5938@gmail.com>
 <7bfa1e66-f6e2-3da6-e51a-4bdc8047608d@inhand.com.cn>
 <44da4d5f-ce7a-2f06-00fe-dd18ead08ef2@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <c69fc691-e1df-9d75-ff4b-1d9d8d107968@inhand.com.cn>

Hi, all:

     I installed it by 'pip install numpy' or 'python setup.cfg 
install'  on my PC, but I do not know how to do this on my arm board. 
Because of my arm board does not have tool of pip. could you please tell 
me any idea? Thanks!


On 04/24/2017 11:39 PM, Michael Torrie wrote:
> On 04/24/2017 08:47 PM, chenchao wrote:
>>         I have x-compiled the cpython-2.7.10 and ported it on my ARM
>> board(it is not the Raspberry Pi and the Beaglebone Black).  But now, I
>> have to use numpy python package on my board. So how do i x-compile this
>> package? Is there anybody know how to do this? Thanks!
>>
>> My embedded system version:
>>     h
>>
>> My PC system is ubuntu10.04.
> I know it would be a bit slow, but it might be easiest to compile and
> install numpy on the board itself using the normal tools (the same as
> you'd build numpy on a PC).
>
>
>
>
>





From alister.ware at ntlworld.com  Tue Apr 25 04:07:32 2017
From: alister.ware at ntlworld.com (alister)
Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2017 08:07:32 GMT
Subject: How to port a python package to a embedded system
References: <36062e4a-1c40-cecd-7b43-aa007dcb1645@inhand.com.cn>
 <716b158b-2082-da86-b55f-7d55d3d38a79@gmail.com>
 <387e0dd7-456e-44ba-d057-232c466e1891@inhand.com.cn>
 <mailman.438.1493085925.2951.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <8tDLA.1235473$vF2.352499@fx46.am4>

On Mon, 24 Apr 2017 22:04:09 -0400, chenchao wrote:

> Hi, everybody:
> 
>       I have x-compiled the cpython-2.7.10 and ported it on my ARM
> board(it is not the Raspberry Pi and the Beaglebone Black).  But now, I
> have to use numpy python package on my board. So how do i x-compile this
> package? Is there anybody know how to do this? Thanks!

so what board is it, why the great secret? 

if you expect anyone here to be able to assist you then you need to 
provide the information they need to be able to help.

what board, and what operating system as a bare minimum.





-- 
It will be advantageous to cross the great stream ... the Dragon is on
the wing in the Sky ... the Great Man rouses himself to his Work.


From steve+python at pearwood.info  Tue Apr 25 06:32:54 2017
From: steve+python at pearwood.info (Steve D'Aprano)
Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2017 20:32:54 +1000
Subject: Quote of the week
Message-ID: <58ff25d8$0$22142$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>

"If it's not important enough to require tests it's not important enough to
be in Python."  --  Ethan Furman

https://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-committers/2017-April/004436.html




-- 
Steve
?Cheer up,? they said, ?things could be worse.? So I cheered up, and sure
enough, things got worse.



From python at mrabarnett.plus.com  Tue Apr 25 10:07:10 2017
From: python at mrabarnett.plus.com (MRAB)
Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2017 15:07:10 +0100
Subject: How to port a python package to a embedded system
In-Reply-To: <c69fc691-e1df-9d75-ff4b-1d9d8d107968@inhand.com.cn>
References: <36062e4a-1c40-cecd-7b43-aa007dcb1645@inhand.com.cn>
 <716b158b-2082-da86-b55f-7d55d3d38a79@gmail.com>
 <387e0dd7-456e-44ba-d057-232c466e1891@inhand.com.cn>
 <e1734c93-f545-9725-c2b1-f2587a9b5938@gmail.com>
 <7bfa1e66-f6e2-3da6-e51a-4bdc8047608d@inhand.com.cn>
 <44da4d5f-ce7a-2f06-00fe-dd18ead08ef2@gmail.com>
 <c69fc691-e1df-9d75-ff4b-1d9d8d107968@inhand.com.cn>
Message-ID: <d0389df0-6cff-ce1b-3481-eb7d99e6794d@mrabarnett.plus.com>

On 2017-04-25 07:28, chenchao wrote:
> Hi, all:
> 
>       I installed it by 'pip install numpy' or 'python setup.cfg
> install'  on my PC, but I do not know how to do this on my arm board.
> Because of my arm board does not have tool of pip. could you please tell
> me any idea? Thanks!
> 
This might help:

How to install pip on Ubuntu
http://www.saltycrane.com/blog/2010/02/how-install-pip-ubuntu/

> 
> On 04/24/2017 11:39 PM, Michael Torrie wrote:
>> On 04/24/2017 08:47 PM, chenchao wrote:
>>>         I have x-compiled the cpython-2.7.10 and ported it on my ARM
>>> board(it is not the Raspberry Pi and the Beaglebone Black).  But now, I
>>> have to use numpy python package on my board. So how do i x-compile this
>>> package? Is there anybody know how to do this? Thanks!
>>>
>>> My embedded system version:
>>>     h
>>>
>>> My PC system is ubuntu10.04.
>> I know it would be a bit slow, but it might be easiest to compile and
>> install numpy on the board itself using the normal tools (the same as
>> you'd build numpy on a PC).
>>


From rustompmody at gmail.com  Tue Apr 25 10:26:52 2017
From: rustompmody at gmail.com (Rustom Mody)
Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2017 07:26:52 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Bigotry (you win, I give up)
In-Reply-To: <mailman.417.1493020190.2951.python-list@python.org>
References: <85r30o9nnp.fsf@benfinney.id.au>
 <00d201d2b970$6e4c8530$27b23dae@sambora>
 <CAPjBxg_Y=GNObBnpzRN890c3iWvbbaoJnK-E4_9pGGKHRgt8rA@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.316.1492658583.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <94788997-2d7e-49da-9c3e-fb6debe1bc24@googlegroups.com>
 <8c5196c0-a629-2530-fc39-928ba2d2f9e7@rece.vub.ac.be>
 <mailman.357.1492765673.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <6c393b04-72aa-4583-95ec-c25a1029c345@googlegroups.com>
 <68696867-327c-88fc-1207-73b91bb7ae71@rece.vub.ac.be>
 <mailman.417.1493020190.2951.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <6a040560-5ae6-4b68-b068-1e8f06079aed@googlegroups.com>

On Monday, April 24, 2017 at 1:20:05 PM UTC+5:30, Antoon Pardon wrote:
> Op 22-04-17 om 13:17 schreef Rustom Mody:
> > On Friday, April 21, 2017 at 2:38:08 PM UTC+5:30, Antoon Pardon wrote:
> >> Op 20-04-17 om 17:25 schreef Rustom Mody:
> >>> But more importantly thank you for your polite and consistent pointing out to
> >>> Ben Finney that his religion-bashing signature lines [many of them] and his 
> >>> claims to wish this list be welcoming are way out of sync.
> >> I don't know. I think a concept like welcoming is too complex, to draw such
> >> simple conclusions. First of all we have to make a choice about the public we
> >> want to be welcoming to. I'm rather confident we can agree we don't want to
> >> be welcoming to bigots on this list.
> >>
> >> ...
> > Generally agree
> > [though I wonder how you will decide what constitutes a 'bigot'. Look at the
> > suggestion in the very subject of these threads]
> 
> Well that's a tough one off course since research seems to suggest we are all
> bigots to some degree. So if I see behaviour that looks biggoted, I tend to
> wait to see how the person reacts after others have pointed out the possible
> problematic nature of his behaviour.
> 
> Of course there is the problem of how sensitive we should all be. Is it so
> problematic if I use an idiom like: "How could I have been so blind". Is
> such an idiom really a slight vs blind people?
> 
> >> Do you think critising any idea in one's signature is enough to conclude that
> >> this person doesn't wish this list to be welcoming?
> > Lets try a thought-experiment:
> > A: Islam is glorious
> > B: Religion is garbage
> > C: Christ is the best
> >
> > Will these statements get equal treatment as spam/as censure etc if they appear
> > on this list?
> 
> That doesn't seem to be fair, since only one is being critical.
> 
> What about:
> D: Homeopathy/Astrology is bunk.

Astrology is bunk?

Or is it 'fake-news' ? 
 https://www.washingtonpost.com/national/health-science/can-a-full-moon-really-affect-our-behavior/2016/01/15/8de3018e-b940-11e5-99f3-184bc379b12d_story.html

Maybe the idea that tides are controlled by the moon
and that people awake and sleep with the sun is also fake?

The influence of Jupiter, Saturn, etc is ? for astrology-buffs at least ? just a
refinement of the influence of the sun, moon


From shimonmo at hadassah.ac.il  Tue Apr 25 11:41:49 2017
From: shimonmo at hadassah.ac.il (Shimon Mor)
Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2017 15:41:49 +0000
Subject: python won't uninstall
Message-ID: <447130B369629F4B88C1DD9299DCA43D202B81@hds-mbx1.hadassah-col.ac.il>

Hello,
python won't uninstall..
I'm trying to uninstall so I could reinstall it.. some command doesn't work.. like 'pip'.
Help please,
Thank you,
Shimon
[cid:image001.jpg at 01D2BD37.046F7530]<http://www.hadassah.ac.il/>

Shimon Mor


shimonmo at hadassah.ac.il<mailto:shimonmo at hadassah.ac.il>
???? ??????? 37, ?.? 1114 ??????? 9101001

P ??? ?????? ?? ??????, ?? ?????? ?? ?? ?? ?????




From rhodri at kynesim.co.uk  Tue Apr 25 12:25:19 2017
From: rhodri at kynesim.co.uk (Rhodri James)
Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2017 17:25:19 +0100
Subject: Bigotry (you win, I give up)
In-Reply-To: <6a040560-5ae6-4b68-b068-1e8f06079aed@googlegroups.com>
References: <85r30o9nnp.fsf@benfinney.id.au>
 <00d201d2b970$6e4c8530$27b23dae@sambora>
 <CAPjBxg_Y=GNObBnpzRN890c3iWvbbaoJnK-E4_9pGGKHRgt8rA@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.316.1492658583.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <94788997-2d7e-49da-9c3e-fb6debe1bc24@googlegroups.com>
 <8c5196c0-a629-2530-fc39-928ba2d2f9e7@rece.vub.ac.be>
 <mailman.357.1492765673.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <6c393b04-72aa-4583-95ec-c25a1029c345@googlegroups.com>
 <68696867-327c-88fc-1207-73b91bb7ae71@rece.vub.ac.be>
 <mailman.417.1493020190.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <6a040560-5ae6-4b68-b068-1e8f06079aed@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <332bbcaf-0f64-58ef-0f1a-b47d8fbe891d@kynesim.co.uk>

On 25/04/17 15:26, Rustom Mody wrote:
>
> Astrology is bunk?
>
> Or is it 'fake-news' ?
>  https://www.washingtonpost.com/national/health-science/can-a-full-moon-really-affect-our-behavior/2016/01/15/8de3018e-b940-11e5-99f3-184bc379b12d_story.html
>
> Maybe the idea that tides are controlled by the moon
> and that people awake and sleep with the sun is also fake?
>
> The influence of Jupiter, Saturn, etc is ? for astrology-buffs at least ? just a
> refinement of the influence of the sun, moon

Mostly it's irrelevant.  Kindly stop.

-- 
Rhodri James *-* Kynesim Ltd


From tjreedy at udel.edu  Tue Apr 25 13:11:07 2017
From: tjreedy at udel.edu (Terry Reedy)
Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2017 13:11:07 -0400
Subject: Quote of the week
In-Reply-To: <58ff25d8$0$22142$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
References: <58ff25d8$0$22142$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
Message-ID: <odnvv8$g9e$1@blaine.gmane.org>

On 4/25/2017 6:32 AM, Steve D'Aprano wrote:
> "If it's not important enough to require tests it's not important enough to
> be in Python."  --  Ethan Furman

The original had a smily ';)' at the end.

> https://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-committers/2017-April/004436.html

In the context of debating how to improve python from where it is now, I 
do not find the quote very helpful, as it glosses over real difficulties 
of testing.  I will try to explain in the original thread.

-- 
Terry Jan Reedy



From torriem at gmail.com  Tue Apr 25 13:15:34 2017
From: torriem at gmail.com (Michael Torrie)
Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2017 11:15:34 -0600
Subject: How to port a python package to a embedded system
In-Reply-To: <d0389df0-6cff-ce1b-3481-eb7d99e6794d@mrabarnett.plus.com>
References: <36062e4a-1c40-cecd-7b43-aa007dcb1645@inhand.com.cn>
 <716b158b-2082-da86-b55f-7d55d3d38a79@gmail.com>
 <387e0dd7-456e-44ba-d057-232c466e1891@inhand.com.cn>
 <e1734c93-f545-9725-c2b1-f2587a9b5938@gmail.com>
 <7bfa1e66-f6e2-3da6-e51a-4bdc8047608d@inhand.com.cn>
 <44da4d5f-ce7a-2f06-00fe-dd18ead08ef2@gmail.com>
 <c69fc691-e1df-9d75-ff4b-1d9d8d107968@inhand.com.cn>
 <d0389df0-6cff-ce1b-3481-eb7d99e6794d@mrabarnett.plus.com>
Message-ID: <bfce8010-f667-a907-e558-8c0aa4ddcc80@gmail.com>

On 04/25/2017 08:07 AM, MRAB wrote:
> On 2017-04-25 07:28, chenchao wrote:
>> Hi, all:
>>
>>       I installed it by 'pip install numpy' or 'python setup.cfg
>> install'  on my PC, but I do not know how to do this on my arm board.
>> Because of my arm board does not have tool of pip. could you please tell
>> me any idea? Thanks!
>>
> This might help:
> 
> How to install pip on Ubuntu
> http://www.saltycrane.com/blog/2010/02/how-install-pip-ubuntu/

If chenchao installed Python from a distro package (always recommended)
then that link is exactly what he needs to do.  In fact it would be a
good idea to install numpy from the repositories using apt-get also, if
it's there.

If he installed python from source (sounds like he did, since he
"x-compiled" it), he should already have pip as it's a standard part of
python since 2.7.9.  If pip isn't in the path, he can try:

python -m pip install numpy

and see what happens. Alternatively he can download this:
https://bootstrap.pypa.io/get-pip.py

and then run it with:

python get-pip.py



From rosuav at gmail.com  Tue Apr 25 13:58:20 2017
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2017 03:58:20 +1000
Subject: How to port a python package to a embedded system
In-Reply-To: <bfce8010-f667-a907-e558-8c0aa4ddcc80@gmail.com>
References: <36062e4a-1c40-cecd-7b43-aa007dcb1645@inhand.com.cn>
 <716b158b-2082-da86-b55f-7d55d3d38a79@gmail.com>
 <387e0dd7-456e-44ba-d057-232c466e1891@inhand.com.cn>
 <e1734c93-f545-9725-c2b1-f2587a9b5938@gmail.com>
 <7bfa1e66-f6e2-3da6-e51a-4bdc8047608d@inhand.com.cn>
 <44da4d5f-ce7a-2f06-00fe-dd18ead08ef2@gmail.com>
 <c69fc691-e1df-9d75-ff4b-1d9d8d107968@inhand.com.cn>
 <d0389df0-6cff-ce1b-3481-eb7d99e6794d@mrabarnett.plus.com>
 <bfce8010-f667-a907-e558-8c0aa4ddcc80@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmoOYxpRe6P2S+BWvt3aMT0NC00uDJnFYEca0wF5ztD_1Q@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Apr 26, 2017 at 3:15 AM, Michael Torrie <torriem at gmail.com> wrote:
> If chenchao installed Python from a distro package (always recommended)
> then that link is exactly what he needs to do.  In fact it would be a
> good idea to install numpy from the repositories using apt-get also, if
> it's there.
>
> If he installed python from source (sounds like he did, since he
> "x-compiled" it), he should already have pip as it's a standard part of
> python since 2.7.9.  If pip isn't in the path, he can try:
>
> python -m pip install numpy
>
> and see what happens. Alternatively he can download this:
> https://bootstrap.pypa.io/get-pip.py
>
> and then run it with:
>
> python get-pip.py

My suspicion here is that it's not pip's issue - numpy has some fairly
serious dependencies.

ChrisA


From cfkaran2 at gmail.com  Tue Apr 25 15:31:05 2017
From: cfkaran2 at gmail.com (Cem Karan)
Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2017 15:31:05 -0400
Subject: Battle of the garbage collectors, or ARGGHHHHHH!!!!
In-Reply-To: <slrnoft7o7.2ms.jon+usenet@sable.unequivocal.eu>
References: <CAENTz_XOrrRJYCJJ_vLef+gZoPO-w-9WCKt5Qo7LJejAe7_Fkg@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.435.1493072662.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <slrnoft7o7.2ms.jon+usenet@sable.unequivocal.eu>
Message-ID: <4334E476-3FBC-4537-AF05-5616EC56E446@gmail.com>


On Apr 24, 2017, at 8:54 PM, Jon Ribbens <jon+usenet at unequivocal.eu> wrote:

> On 2017-04-24, CFK <cfkaran2 at gmail.com> wrote:
>> Long version: I'm trying to write bindings for python via ctypes to control
>> a library written in C that uses the bdwgc garbage collector (
>> http://www.hboehm.info/gc/).  The bindings mostly work, except for when
>> either bdwgc or python's garbage collector decide to get into an argument
>> over what is garbage and what isn't, in which case I get a segfault because
>> one or the other collector has already reaped the memory.
> 
> Make your Python C objects contain a pointer to a
> GC_MALLOC_UNCOLLECTABLE block that contains a pointer to the
> bwdgc object it's an interface to? And GC_FREE it in tp_dealloc?
> Then bwdgc won't free any C memory that Python is referencing.

That's a really clever idea? I'm not near the machine that I could test it on right now, but I'll give it a shot tomorrow and see how it works.  I'll let everyone know what I find out.

Thanks,
Cem Karan

From ethan at stoneleaf.us  Tue Apr 25 17:31:31 2017
From: ethan at stoneleaf.us (Ethan Furman)
Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2017 14:31:31 -0700
Subject: Quote of the week
In-Reply-To: <odnvv8$g9e$1@blaine.gmane.org>
References: <58ff25d8$0$22142$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <odnvv8$g9e$1@blaine.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <58FFC033.8010009@stoneleaf.us>

On 04/25/2017 10:11 AM, Terry Reedy wrote:
> On 4/25/2017 6:32 AM, Steve D'Aprano wrote:
>> "If it's not important enough to require tests it's not important enough to
>> be in Python."  --  Ethan Furman
>
> The original had a smily ';)' at the end.
>
>> https://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-committers/2017-April/004436.html
>
> In the context of debating how to improve python from where it is now, I do not find the quote very helpful, as it
> glosses over real difficulties of testing.  I will try to explain in the original thread.

Yes, the smiley was acknowledgement that testing is hard, will never be perfect, and we only have so much time -- but 
thorough tests should still be the goal.

--
~Ethan~


From ben+python at benfinney.id.au  Tue Apr 25 19:02:37 2017
From: ben+python at benfinney.id.au (Ben Finney)
Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2017 09:02:37 +1000
Subject: Quote of the week
References: <58ff25d8$0$22142$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <odnvv8$g9e$1@blaine.gmane.org> <58FFC033.8010009@stoneleaf.us>
Message-ID: <85h91c6qgi.fsf@benfinney.id.au>


> "If it's not important enough to require tests it's not important
> enough to be in Python." -- Ethan Furman

Ethan Furman <ethan at stoneleaf.us> writes:

> Yes, the smiley was acknowledgement that testing is hard, will never
> be perfect, and we only have so much time -- but thorough tests should
> still be the goal.

I agree with the statement in full. I wonder what Terry disagrees with
in that statement.

It's not saying that *all code* in Python must have tests, no matter how
difficult that is. Difficulty is not addressed in the statement.

It's saying that if code is so *unimportant* that it doesn't require
tests, then that code is below the threshold of importance for keeping
in Python.

That is a statement that appears clearly right. I'd be surprised at any
defensible counter-example: code that is both ?not important enough to
require tests?, *and* important enough to be in Python.

Perhaps disagreement would hinge on differing ideas of ?important? and
?require? in the context of core Python. If so, those both seem like
judgements the Python core developers get to make; and so, I still agree
with the statement in full.

-- 
 \          ?A hundred times every day I remind myself that [?] I must |
  `\       exert myself in order to give in the same measure as I have |
_o__)                received and am still receiving? ?Albert Einstein |
Ben Finney



From greg.ewing at canterbury.ac.nz  Tue Apr 25 19:06:03 2017
From: greg.ewing at canterbury.ac.nz (Gregory Ewing)
Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2017 11:06:03 +1200
Subject: Bigotry (you win, I give up)
In-Reply-To: <6a040560-5ae6-4b68-b068-1e8f06079aed@googlegroups.com>
References: <85r30o9nnp.fsf@benfinney.id.au>
 <00d201d2b970$6e4c8530$27b23dae@sambora>
 <CAPjBxg_Y=GNObBnpzRN890c3iWvbbaoJnK-E4_9pGGKHRgt8rA@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.316.1492658583.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <94788997-2d7e-49da-9c3e-fb6debe1bc24@googlegroups.com>
 <8c5196c0-a629-2530-fc39-928ba2d2f9e7@rece.vub.ac.be>
 <mailman.357.1492765673.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <6c393b04-72aa-4583-95ec-c25a1029c345@googlegroups.com>
 <68696867-327c-88fc-1207-73b91bb7ae71@rece.vub.ac.be>
 <mailman.417.1493020190.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <6a040560-5ae6-4b68-b068-1e8f06079aed@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <ema32uFfcr7U1@mid.individual.net>

Rustom Mody wrote:
> The influence of Jupiter, Saturn, etc is ? for astrology-buffs at least ? just a
> refinement of the influence of the sun, moon
 >
> Maybe the idea that tides are controlled by the moon
> and that people awake and sleep with the sun is also fake?

There's a huge difference, though. We have a very good idea of
exactly *how* the sun and moon affect the earth, plus overwhelming
observational evidence supporting those ideas. If it's fake news,
somone has done a heck of a lot of faking!

-- 
Greg


From breamoreboy at gmail.com  Tue Apr 25 19:54:25 2017
From: breamoreboy at gmail.com (breamoreboy at gmail.com)
Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2017 16:54:25 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Quote of the week
In-Reply-To: <mailman.453.1493161374.2951.python-list@python.org>
References: <58ff25d8$0$22142$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <odnvv8$g9e$1@blaine.gmane.org> <58FFC033.8010009@stoneleaf.us>
 <85h91c6qgi.fsf@benfinney.id.au>
 <mailman.453.1493161374.2951.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <e17745cf-6001-459a-a8ce-afc16f749be1@googlegroups.com>

On Wednesday, April 26, 2017 at 12:03:09 AM UTC+1, Ben Finney wrote:
> > "If it's not important enough to require tests it's not important
> > enough to be in Python." -- Ethan Furman
> 
> Ethan Furman writes:
> 
> > Yes, the smiley was acknowledgement that testing is hard, will never
> > be perfect, and we only have so much time -- but thorough tests should
> > still be the goal.
> 
> I agree with the statement in full. I wonder what Terry disagrees with
> in that statement.
> 
> -- 
>  \          ?A hundred times every day I remind myself that [?] I must |
>   `\       exert myself in order to give in the same measure as I have |
> _o__)                received and am still receiving? ?Albert Einstein |
> Ben Finney

Terry actually said "In the context of debating how to improve python from where it is now, I do not find the quote very helpful, as it glosses over real difficulties of testing.  I will try to explain in the original thread." referring to https://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-committers/2017-April/004436.html so if you pop over there I'm sure that you'll get your answer.

Kindest regards.

Mark Lawrence.




From chenchao at inhand.com.cn  Tue Apr 25 21:41:30 2017
From: chenchao at inhand.com.cn (chenchao)
Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2017 21:41:30 -0400
Subject: How to port a python package to a embedded system
In-Reply-To: <bfce8010-f667-a907-e558-8c0aa4ddcc80@gmail.com>
References: <36062e4a-1c40-cecd-7b43-aa007dcb1645@inhand.com.cn>
 <716b158b-2082-da86-b55f-7d55d3d38a79@gmail.com>
 <387e0dd7-456e-44ba-d057-232c466e1891@inhand.com.cn>
 <e1734c93-f545-9725-c2b1-f2587a9b5938@gmail.com>
 <7bfa1e66-f6e2-3da6-e51a-4bdc8047608d@inhand.com.cn>
 <44da4d5f-ce7a-2f06-00fe-dd18ead08ef2@gmail.com>
 <c69fc691-e1df-9d75-ff4b-1d9d8d107968@inhand.com.cn>
 <d0389df0-6cff-ce1b-3481-eb7d99e6794d@mrabarnett.plus.com>
 <bfce8010-f667-a907-e558-8c0aa4ddcc80@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <b52ab913-6bab-5718-2d93-48387f4e8f71@inhand.com.cn>

Hi, all:

     I have installed the PIP on my arm board now.  But the 'numpy' 
package includes some of C codes. This part of the C code must be 
x-compiled and I don't know how to x-compiled this package. So, is there 
a good idea for this issue?


On 04/25/2017 01:15 PM, Michael Torrie wrote:
> On 04/25/2017 08:07 AM, MRAB wrote:
>> On 2017-04-25 07:28, chenchao wrote:
>>> Hi, all:
>>>
>>>        I installed it by 'pip install numpy' or 'python setup.cfg
>>> install'  on my PC, but I do not know how to do this on my arm board.
>>> Because of my arm board does not have tool of pip. could you please tell
>>> me any idea? Thanks!
>>>
>> This might help:
>>
>> How to install pip on Ubuntu
>> http://www.saltycrane.com/blog/2010/02/how-install-pip-ubuntu/
> If chenchao installed Python from a distro package (always recommended)
> then that link is exactly what he needs to do.  In fact it would be a
> good idea to install numpy from the repositories using apt-get also, if
> it's there.
>
> If he installed python from source (sounds like he did, since he
> "x-compiled" it), he should already have pip as it's a standard part of
> python since 2.7.9.  If pip isn't in the path, he can try:
>
> python -m pip install numpy
>
> and see what happens. Alternatively he can download this:
> https://bootstrap.pypa.io/get-pip.py
>
> and then run it with:
>
> python get-pip.py
>





From breamoreboy at gmail.com  Tue Apr 25 22:24:12 2017
From: breamoreboy at gmail.com (breamoreboy at gmail.com)
Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2017 19:24:12 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Bigotry (you win, I give up)
In-Reply-To: <mailman.364.1492787954.2951.python-list@python.org>
References: <85r30o9nnp.fsf@benfinney.id.au>
 <00d201d2b970$6e4c8530$27b23dae@sambora>
 <CAPjBxg_Y=GNObBnpzRN890c3iWvbbaoJnK-E4_9pGGKHRgt8rA@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.316.1492658583.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <94788997-2d7e-49da-9c3e-fb6debe1bc24@googlegroups.com>
 <8c5196c0-a629-2530-fc39-928ba2d2f9e7@rece.vub.ac.be>
 <mailman.357.1492765673.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <9d7de28e-ad21-44e8-9f6a-517d3747beb8@googlegroups.com>
 <58FA0A14.8060904@stoneleaf.us> <58FA230A.4060107@stoneleaf.us>
 <mailman.364.1492787954.2951.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <10525a88-cb20-4ebf-a4b2-6105fe82524b@googlegroups.com>

On Friday, April 21, 2017 at 4:19:25 PM UTC+1, Ethan Furman wrote:
> On 04/21/2017 06:33 AM, Ethan Furman wrote:
> > On 04/21/2017 03:38 AM, breamoreboy wrote:
> 
> >> Talking of signatures another of Robert L's beauties landed three or so hours ago.  He really is a right little
> >> charmer :-(
> >
> > Not on the Python Mailing List.
> 
> I see one of them made it through.  My apologies (human error).
> 
> --
> Python List Moderator

The only person who never makes a mistake is the person who never does anything :)

Kindest regards.

Mark Lawrence.


From breamoreboy at gmail.com  Tue Apr 25 22:26:42 2017
From: breamoreboy at gmail.com (breamoreboy at gmail.com)
Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2017 19:26:42 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Bigotry (you win, I give up)
In-Reply-To: <mailman.447.1493138459.2951.python-list@python.org>
References: <85r30o9nnp.fsf@benfinney.id.au>
 <00d201d2b970$6e4c8530$27b23dae@sambora>
 <CAPjBxg_Y=GNObBnpzRN890c3iWvbbaoJnK-E4_9pGGKHRgt8rA@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.316.1492658583.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <94788997-2d7e-49da-9c3e-fb6debe1bc24@googlegroups.com>
 <8c5196c0-a629-2530-fc39-928ba2d2f9e7@rece.vub.ac.be>
 <mailman.357.1492765673.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <6c393b04-72aa-4583-95ec-c25a1029c345@googlegroups.com>
 <68696867-327c-88fc-1207-73b91bb7ae71@rece.vub.ac.be>
 <mailman.417.1493020190.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <6a040560-5ae6-4b68-b068-1e8f06079aed@googlegroups.com>
 <332bbcaf-0f64-58ef-0f1a-b47d8fbe891d@kynesim.co.uk>
 <mailman.447.1493138459.2951.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <4a29b225-fd52-44e5-83c9-2480e5a8555f@googlegroups.com>

On Tuesday, April 25, 2017 at 5:41:11 PM UTC+1, Rhodri James wrote:
> On 25/04/17 15:26, Rustom Mody wrote:
> >
> > Astrology is bunk?
> >
> > Or is it 'fake-news' ?
> >  https://www.washingtonpost.com/national/health-science/can-a-full-moon-really-affect-our-behavior/2016/01/15/8de3018e-b940-11e5-99f3-184bc379b12d_story.html
> >
> > Maybe the idea that tides are controlled by the moon
> > and that people awake and sleep with the sun is also fake?
> >
> > The influence of Jupiter, Saturn, etc is ? for astrology-buffs at least ? just a
> > refinement of the influence of the sun, moon
> 
> Mostly it's irrelevant.  Kindly stop.
> 
> -- 
> Rhodri James *-* Kynesim Ltd

I'll second that, people come here to discuss Python specifically and computing generally, not this kind of complete dross.

Kindest regards.

Mark Lawrence.


From nathan.ernst at gmail.com  Tue Apr 25 22:35:23 2017
From: nathan.ernst at gmail.com (Nathan Ernst)
Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2017 21:35:23 -0500
Subject: How to port a python package to a embedded system
In-Reply-To: <b52ab913-6bab-5718-2d93-48387f4e8f71@inhand.com.cn>
References: <36062e4a-1c40-cecd-7b43-aa007dcb1645@inhand.com.cn>
 <716b158b-2082-da86-b55f-7d55d3d38a79@gmail.com>
 <387e0dd7-456e-44ba-d057-232c466e1891@inhand.com.cn>
 <e1734c93-f545-9725-c2b1-f2587a9b5938@gmail.com>
 <7bfa1e66-f6e2-3da6-e51a-4bdc8047608d@inhand.com.cn>
 <44da4d5f-ce7a-2f06-00fe-dd18ead08ef2@gmail.com>
 <c69fc691-e1df-9d75-ff4b-1d9d8d107968@inhand.com.cn>
 <d0389df0-6cff-ce1b-3481-eb7d99e6794d@mrabarnett.plus.com>
 <bfce8010-f667-a907-e558-8c0aa4ddcc80@gmail.com>
 <b52ab913-6bab-5718-2d93-48387f4e8f71@inhand.com.cn>
Message-ID: <CAPjBxg-=UzOA6S=vWEZ7sOiBkc3P=ZYprpypXUH0uvKLHJu2fw@mail.gmail.com>

As previously asked: what board are you using? There might be a simple
response to your issue, but you've yet to state the board you're using. You
will not get any useful responses until you answer this very, very simple
question.

If you can't "pip install", you'll probably have to build from source and
the board will likely matter very much. Building from source isn't normally
terribly difficult, but no one here can help you if we don't know your
environment.

Help us help you.

On Tue, Apr 25, 2017 at 8:41 PM, chenchao <chenchao at inhand.com.cn> wrote:

> Hi, all:
>
>     I have installed the PIP on my arm board now.  But the 'numpy' package
> includes some of C codes. This part of the C code must be x-compiled and I
> don't know how to x-compiled this package. So, is there a good idea for
> this issue?
>
>
>
> On 04/25/2017 01:15 PM, Michael Torrie wrote:
>
>> On 04/25/2017 08:07 AM, MRAB wrote:
>>
>>> On 2017-04-25 07:28, chenchao wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hi, all:
>>>>
>>>>        I installed it by 'pip install numpy' or 'python setup.cfg
>>>> install'  on my PC, but I do not know how to do this on my arm board.
>>>> Because of my arm board does not have tool of pip. could you please tell
>>>> me any idea? Thanks!
>>>>
>>>> This might help:
>>>
>>> How to install pip on Ubuntu
>>> http://www.saltycrane.com/blog/2010/02/how-install-pip-ubuntu/
>>>
>> If chenchao installed Python from a distro package (always recommended)
>> then that link is exactly what he needs to do.  In fact it would be a
>> good idea to install numpy from the repositories using apt-get also, if
>> it's there.
>>
>> If he installed python from source (sounds like he did, since he
>> "x-compiled" it), he should already have pip as it's a standard part of
>> python since 2.7.9.  If pip isn't in the path, he can try:
>>
>> python -m pip install numpy
>>
>> and see what happens. Alternatively he can download this:
>> https://bootstrap.pypa.io/get-pip.py
>>
>> and then run it with:
>>
>> python get-pip.py
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
>


From torriem at gmail.com  Tue Apr 25 22:40:30 2017
From: torriem at gmail.com (Michael Torrie)
Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2017 20:40:30 -0600
Subject: How to port a python package to a embedded system
In-Reply-To: <b52ab913-6bab-5718-2d93-48387f4e8f71@inhand.com.cn>
References: <36062e4a-1c40-cecd-7b43-aa007dcb1645@inhand.com.cn>
 <716b158b-2082-da86-b55f-7d55d3d38a79@gmail.com>
 <387e0dd7-456e-44ba-d057-232c466e1891@inhand.com.cn>
 <e1734c93-f545-9725-c2b1-f2587a9b5938@gmail.com>
 <7bfa1e66-f6e2-3da6-e51a-4bdc8047608d@inhand.com.cn>
 <44da4d5f-ce7a-2f06-00fe-dd18ead08ef2@gmail.com>
 <c69fc691-e1df-9d75-ff4b-1d9d8d107968@inhand.com.cn>
 <d0389df0-6cff-ce1b-3481-eb7d99e6794d@mrabarnett.plus.com>
 <bfce8010-f667-a907-e558-8c0aa4ddcc80@gmail.com>
 <b52ab913-6bab-5718-2d93-48387f4e8f71@inhand.com.cn>
Message-ID: <2dc40400-cd46-e1ca-29e2-20a145e751e0@gmail.com>

On 04/25/2017 07:41 PM, chenchao wrote:
> Hi, all:
> 
>      I have installed the PIP on my arm board now.  But the 'numpy' 
> package includes some of C codes. This part of the C code must be 
> x-compiled and I don't know how to x-compiled this package. So, is there 
> a good idea for this issue?

Why do you think it must be cross compiled?  It's a bit slow but
perfectly reasonable to install GCC and friends with apt-get.  Most of
these packages you are working with were not really designed to be
cross-compiled. If you cannot compile them on the board itself due to
resource constraints, you will have to use qemu and set up an Arm
environment on your PC and do the build there.  This will not be as fast
as cross-compiling, but probably would be faster than building on the
Arm device itself.

https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ARM64/QEMU

If you can't compile on your board, setting all this up is a major
undertaking.



From m.n.summerfield at googlemail.com  Wed Apr 26 03:00:56 2017
From: m.n.summerfield at googlemail.com (m.n.summerfield at googlemail.com)
Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2017 00:00:56 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Bigotry (you win, I give up)
In-Reply-To: <4a29b225-fd52-44e5-83c9-2480e5a8555f@googlegroups.com>
References: <85r30o9nnp.fsf@benfinney.id.au>
 <00d201d2b970$6e4c8530$27b23dae@sambora>
 <CAPjBxg_Y=GNObBnpzRN890c3iWvbbaoJnK-E4_9pGGKHRgt8rA@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.316.1492658583.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <94788997-2d7e-49da-9c3e-fb6debe1bc24@googlegroups.com>
 <8c5196c0-a629-2530-fc39-928ba2d2f9e7@rece.vub.ac.be>
 <mailman.357.1492765673.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <6c393b04-72aa-4583-95ec-c25a1029c345@googlegroups.com>
 <68696867-327c-88fc-1207-73b91bb7ae71@rece.vub.ac.be>
 <mailman.417.1493020190.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <6a040560-5ae6-4b68-b068-1e8f06079aed@googlegroups.com>
 <332bbcaf-0f64-58ef-0f1a-b47d8fbe891d@kynesim.co.uk>
 <mailman.447.1493138459.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <4a29b225-fd52-44e5-83c9-2480e5a8555f@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <83420ce3-5918-493b-94a0-bd1b43ea51b1@googlegroups.com>

Surely it is time to stop the "Robert L." emails? And any others that follow using a different alias but use the same technique of seemingly asking a genuine technical question for the clear purpose of adding the vile contents of their signatures to this list (and therefore to our community's public record).

(At PyCons nowadays there's always a code of conduct: if someone came to a PyCon wearing a T-shirt printed with one of these signatures would it be considered acceptable? I don't know if this list has a code of conduct, but maybe it is time it did?)


From ben+python at benfinney.id.au  Wed Apr 26 03:20:00 2017
From: ben+python at benfinney.id.au (Ben Finney)
Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2017 17:20:00 +1000
Subject: Bigotry (you win, I give up)
References: <85r30o9nnp.fsf@benfinney.id.au>
 <00d201d2b970$6e4c8530$27b23dae@sambora>
 <CAPjBxg_Y=GNObBnpzRN890c3iWvbbaoJnK-E4_9pGGKHRgt8rA@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.316.1492658583.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <94788997-2d7e-49da-9c3e-fb6debe1bc24@googlegroups.com>
 <8c5196c0-a629-2530-fc39-928ba2d2f9e7@rece.vub.ac.be>
 <mailman.357.1492765673.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <6c393b04-72aa-4583-95ec-c25a1029c345@googlegroups.com>
 <68696867-327c-88fc-1207-73b91bb7ae71@rece.vub.ac.be>
 <mailman.417.1493020190.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <6a040560-5ae6-4b68-b068-1e8f06079aed@googlegroups.com>
 <332bbcaf-0f64-58ef-0f1a-b47d8fbe891d@kynesim.co.uk>
 <mailman.447.1493138459.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <4a29b225-fd52-44e5-83c9-2480e5a8555f@googlegroups.com>
 <83420ce3-5918-493b-94a0-bd1b43ea51b1@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <85d1bz7hzz.fsf@benfinney.id.au>

"m.n.summerfield--- via Python-list" <python-list at python.org> writes:

> I don't know if this list has a code of conduct, but maybe it is time
> it did?)

This forum is provided to the Python community by the Python Software
Foundation, and as such it is encompassed by the Python Community Code
of Conduct <URL:https://www.python.org/psf/codeofconduct/>.

-- 
 \     ?When people believe that they have absolute knowledge, with no |
  `\     test in reality, this [the Auschwitz crematorium] is how they |
_o__)             behave.? ?Jacob Bronowski, _The Ascent of Man_, 1973 |
Ben Finney



From marko at pacujo.net  Wed Apr 26 03:34:55 2017
From: marko at pacujo.net (Marko Rauhamaa)
Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2017 10:34:55 +0300
Subject: Bigotry (you win, I give up)
References: <85r30o9nnp.fsf@benfinney.id.au>
 <00d201d2b970$6e4c8530$27b23dae@sambora>
 <CAPjBxg_Y=GNObBnpzRN890c3iWvbbaoJnK-E4_9pGGKHRgt8rA@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.316.1492658583.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <94788997-2d7e-49da-9c3e-fb6debe1bc24@googlegroups.com>
 <8c5196c0-a629-2530-fc39-928ba2d2f9e7@rece.vub.ac.be>
 <mailman.357.1492765673.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <6c393b04-72aa-4583-95ec-c25a1029c345@googlegroups.com>
 <68696867-327c-88fc-1207-73b91bb7ae71@rece.vub.ac.be>
 <mailman.417.1493020190.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <6a040560-5ae6-4b68-b068-1e8f06079aed@googlegroups.com>
 <332bbcaf-0f64-58ef-0f1a-b47d8fbe891d@kynesim.co.uk>
 <mailman.447.1493138459.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <4a29b225-fd52-44e5-83c9-2480e5a8555f@googlegroups.com>
 <83420ce3-5918-493b-94a0-bd1b43ea51b1@googlegroups.com>
 <85d1bz7hzz.fsf@benfinney.id.au>
 <mailman.457.1493191224.2951.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <87o9vjlizk.fsf@elektro.pacujo.net>

Ben Finney <ben+python at benfinney.id.au>:
>  \     ?When people believe that they have absolute knowledge, with no |
>   `\     test in reality, this [the Auschwitz crematorium] is how they |
> _o__)             behave.? ?Jacob Bronowski, _The Ascent of Man_, 1973 |

Genocide is a deplorable facet of humanity, but it has absolutely
nothing to do with knowledge, testing or Python.


Marko


From mail at timgolden.me.uk  Wed Apr 26 03:48:46 2017
From: mail at timgolden.me.uk (Tim Golden)
Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2017 08:48:46 +0100
Subject: Bigotry (you win, I give up)
In-Reply-To: <83420ce3-5918-493b-94a0-bd1b43ea51b1@googlegroups.com>
References: <85r30o9nnp.fsf@benfinney.id.au>
 <00d201d2b970$6e4c8530$27b23dae@sambora>
 <CAPjBxg_Y=GNObBnpzRN890c3iWvbbaoJnK-E4_9pGGKHRgt8rA@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.316.1492658583.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <94788997-2d7e-49da-9c3e-fb6debe1bc24@googlegroups.com>
 <8c5196c0-a629-2530-fc39-928ba2d2f9e7@rece.vub.ac.be>
 <mailman.357.1492765673.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <6c393b04-72aa-4583-95ec-c25a1029c345@googlegroups.com>
 <68696867-327c-88fc-1207-73b91bb7ae71@rece.vub.ac.be>
 <mailman.417.1493020190.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <6a040560-5ae6-4b68-b068-1e8f06079aed@googlegroups.com>
 <332bbcaf-0f64-58ef-0f1a-b47d8fbe891d@kynesim.co.uk>
 <mailman.447.1493138459.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <4a29b225-fd52-44e5-83c9-2480e5a8555f@googlegroups.com>
 <83420ce3-5918-493b-94a0-bd1b43ea51b1@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <910a4008-492b-722c-e987-ef71577c49ed@timgolden.me.uk>

On 26/04/2017 08:00, m.n.summerfield--- via Python-list wrote:
> Surely it is time to stop the "Robert L." emails?

We're currently blocking the "Robert L." emails through the list 
gateway. And -- barring one, which was passed through by mistake -- I've 
not seen any hit the list itself lately. They'll still appear on Usenet, 
which will include Google Groups.

If you think the filter isn't working please drop a line to the list 
owners: python-list-owner at python.org

TJG


From jenfhaomndgfwutc at murmic.plus.com  Wed Apr 26 03:48:48 2017
From: jenfhaomndgfwutc at murmic.plus.com (Jan Coombs)
Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2017 08:48:48 +0100
Subject: Bigotry (you win, I give up)
References: <85r30o9nnp.fsf@benfinney.id.au>
 <00d201d2b970$6e4c8530$27b23dae@sambora>
 <CAPjBxg_Y=GNObBnpzRN890c3iWvbbaoJnK-E4_9pGGKHRgt8rA@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.316.1492658583.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <94788997-2d7e-49da-9c3e-fb6debe1bc24@googlegroups.com>
 <8c5196c0-a629-2530-fc39-928ba2d2f9e7@rece.vub.ac.be>
 <mailman.357.1492765673.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <6c393b04-72aa-4583-95ec-c25a1029c345@googlegroups.com>
 <68696867-327c-88fc-1207-73b91bb7ae71@rece.vub.ac.be>
 <mailman.417.1493020190.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <6a040560-5ae6-4b68-b068-1e8f06079aed@googlegroups.com>
 <332bbcaf-0f64-58ef-0f1a-b47d8fbe891d@kynesim.co.uk>
 <mailman.447.1493138459.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <4a29b225-fd52-44e5-83c9-2480e5a8555f@googlegroups.com>
 <83420ce3-5918-493b-94a0-bd1b43ea51b1@googlegroups.com>
 <85d1bz7hzz.fsf@benfinney.id.au>
 <mailman.457.1493191224.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <87o9vjlizk.fsf@elektro.pacujo.net>
Message-ID: <20170426084848.6d79100c@t530.lan>

On Wed, 26 Apr 2017 10:34:55 +0300
Marko Rauhamaa <marko at pacujo.net> wrote:

> Ben Finney <ben+python at benfinney.id.au>:
> >  \     ?When people believe that they have absolute
> > knowledge, with no | `\     test in reality, this [the
> > Auschwitz crematorium] is how they | _o__)
> > behave.? ?Jacob Bronowski, _The Ascent of Man_, 1973 |
> 
> Genocide is a deplorable facet of humanity, but it has
> absolutely nothing to do with knowledge, testing or Python.

"There are more questions than answers, 
 And the more you find out, the less you know"

Roll this backwards, if you are young, blinkered, or a good
believing nationalist citizen, you can easily believe that you
know everything. 

Then you just get on and do it, regardless.  So don't blame
Hxxler or anyone else, acquire knowledge, and do testing, even
when it's only your view of Python that might change. 

Jan Coombs



From sumitsuman6258 at gmail.com  Wed Apr 26 07:52:27 2017
From: sumitsuman6258 at gmail.com (SUMIT SUMAN)
Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2017 17:22:27 +0530
Subject: I encounter a problem during installations!!!
Message-ID: <CAGTfuAcYsdjcE0rncAh+d9Lu_oN7Ro5HOP+hMSGqo2d5aEkuwA@mail.gmail.com>

I have reinstall windows 8.1 for some reasons, and when I installed Python
3.6.1 then, it shows error that"The program can't start because
api-ms-win-crt-runtime-I1-1-0.dll is missing from your computer. Try
reinstalling the program to fix this problem." Please,help me!!!


From katarin.bern at gmail.com  Wed Apr 26 10:04:03 2017
From: katarin.bern at gmail.com (katarin.bern at gmail.com)
Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2017 07:04:03 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Array column separations for beginners
Message-ID: <23158e0f-55a4-4ad1-9fa9-09e4e79c39cf@googlegroups.com>

Hi,
1. I would like to ask how can I adjust array.csv like this: 
,,,-00.000146400000,   0.08000,
,,,-00.000146200000,   0.00000,
,,,-00.000146000000,   0.00000,
,,,-00.000145800000,   0.00000,

so I can have in first column -00.000146400000 and in second column 0.08000? (thanks, I am begginer).

2. How can I pick out information(number) from 20 separate files to one file? (thanks!)


From rhodri at kynesim.co.uk  Wed Apr 26 10:25:57 2017
From: rhodri at kynesim.co.uk (Rhodri James)
Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2017 15:25:57 +0100
Subject: Array column separations for beginners
In-Reply-To: <23158e0f-55a4-4ad1-9fa9-09e4e79c39cf@googlegroups.com>
References: <23158e0f-55a4-4ad1-9fa9-09e4e79c39cf@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <8a6f06d4-1700-8e95-e63f-28771d34ba9a@kynesim.co.uk>

On 26/04/17 15:04, katarin.bern at gmail.com wrote:
> Hi,
> 1. I would like to ask how can I adjust array.csv like this:
> ,,,-00.000146400000,   0.08000,
> ,,,-00.000146200000,   0.00000,
> ,,,-00.000146000000,   0.00000,
> ,,,-00.000145800000,   0.00000,
>
> so I can have in first column -00.000146400000 and in second column 0.08000? (thanks, I am begginer).

Use the csv module in the standard library.  Here's some pseudocode to 
help you on your way:

Open array.csv to read
Create a csv.reader for it
Open new file (say, out.csv) to write
Create a csv.writer for it
for each line in the reader:
   write the columns you want through the writer


> 2. How can I pick out information(number) from 20 separate files to one file? (thanks!)

Without a more detailed description it's difficult to be very helpful. 
Basically you read the information from each input file separately and 
write it to your output file.

-- 
Rhodri James *-* Kynesim Ltd


From __peter__ at web.de  Wed Apr 26 10:29:27 2017
From: __peter__ at web.de (Peter Otten)
Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2017 16:29:27 +0200
Subject: Array column separations for beginners
References: <23158e0f-55a4-4ad1-9fa9-09e4e79c39cf@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <odqas2$oik$1@blaine.gmane.org>

katarin.bern at gmail.com wrote:

> Hi,
> 1. I would like to ask how can I adjust array.csv like this:
> ,,,-00.000146400000,   0.08000,
> ,,,-00.000146200000,   0.00000,
> ,,,-00.000146000000,   0.00000,
> ,,,-00.000145800000,   0.00000,
> 
> so I can have in first column -00.000146400000 and in second column
> 0.08000? (thanks, I am begginer).

Have a look at the csv module

https://docs.python.org/dev/library/csv.html

You can use the reader class to read the rows and the writer to write the 
result to a new file.

(All code untested)

with open("array.csv") as infile:
    reader = csv.reader(infile)
    with open("out.csv", "w") as outfile:
        writer = csv.writer(outfile)
        for row in reader:
            writer.writerow([row[3], row[4]])

> 2. How can I pick out information(number) from 20 separate files to one
> file? (thanks!)

Do you know how to extract the number from one file? Put the code into a 
function

def pick_number(filename):
    ...  # open the file, extract the number
    return number

Then specify the filenames:

sourcefiles = ["foo.txt", "bar.txt", ...]

If the list of filenames is not fixed have a look at the glob module.

https://docs.python.org/dev/library/glob.html

Example:

sourcefiles = glob.glob("/path/to/*.txt")  # all txt files in the /path/to
                                       # directory

Finally loop over the files and write out the numbers:

with open("/path/to/outfile.txt", "w") as outfile:
    for filename in sourcefiles:
        print(pick_number(filename), file=outfile)




From python at mrabarnett.plus.com  Wed Apr 26 10:51:08 2017
From: python at mrabarnett.plus.com (MRAB)
Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2017 15:51:08 +0100
Subject: I encounter a problem during installations!!!
In-Reply-To: <CAGTfuAcYsdjcE0rncAh+d9Lu_oN7Ro5HOP+hMSGqo2d5aEkuwA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAGTfuAcYsdjcE0rncAh+d9Lu_oN7Ro5HOP+hMSGqo2d5aEkuwA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <6ddb92a9-2573-4083-da18-b5eeff8854a6@mrabarnett.plus.com>

On 2017-04-26 12:52, SUMIT SUMAN wrote:
> I have reinstall windows 8.1 for some reasons, and when I installed Python
> 3.6.1 then, it shows error that"The program can't start because
> api-ms-win-crt-runtime-I1-1-0.dll is missing from your computer. Try
> reinstalling the program to fix this problem." Please,help me!!!
> 
Install the missing file:

https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/kb/2999226


From p.f.moore at gmail.com  Wed Apr 26 10:51:14 2017
From: p.f.moore at gmail.com (Paul Moore)
Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2017 07:51:14 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: I encounter a problem during installations!!!
In-Reply-To: <mailman.459.1493210103.2951.python-list@python.org>
References: <CAGTfuAcYsdjcE0rncAh+d9Lu_oN7Ro5HOP+hMSGqo2d5aEkuwA@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.459.1493210103.2951.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <aa66379c-a47a-4e8b-8171-6c85f167b5f6@googlegroups.com>

On Wednesday, 26 April 2017 13:35:16 UTC+1, SUMIT SUMAN  wrote:
> I have reinstall windows 8.1 for some reasons, and when I installed Python
> 3.6.1 then, it shows error that"The program can't start because
> api-ms-win-crt-runtime-I1-1-0.dll is missing from your computer. Try
> reinstalling the program to fix this problem." Please,help me!!!

You're missing the needed C runtime files (the Universal CRT). The installer should install them for you, but it needs to be run as administrator to do so. See the notes at https://www.python.org/downloads/release/python-361/ which say:
"""
  If installing Python 3.6.0 as a non-privileged user, you may need to escalate to administrator privileges to install an update to your C runtime libraries
"""

(It says 3.6.0 but this is a typo - it refers to 3.6.1 as well).

You could probably also install the UCRT manually from https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/download/details.aspx?id=48234.


From eryksun at gmail.com  Wed Apr 26 18:52:09 2017
From: eryksun at gmail.com (eryk sun)
Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2017 22:52:09 +0000
Subject: I encounter a problem during installations!!!
In-Reply-To: <aa66379c-a47a-4e8b-8171-6c85f167b5f6@googlegroups.com>
References: <CAGTfuAcYsdjcE0rncAh+d9Lu_oN7Ro5HOP+hMSGqo2d5aEkuwA@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.459.1493210103.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <aa66379c-a47a-4e8b-8171-6c85f167b5f6@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <CACL+1as2ovHn_egpVSiMAU+0UTAWCE9AKnTSB2xDiyry_x3Odw@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Apr 26, 2017 at 2:51 PM, Paul  Moore <p.f.moore at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> You could probably also install the UCRT manually from
> https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/download/details.aspx?id=48234.

KB3118401 is a more recent version.

https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/kb/3118401


From pkpearson at nowhere.invalid  Wed Apr 26 19:42:02 2017
From: pkpearson at nowhere.invalid (Peter Pearson)
Date: 26 Apr 2017 23:42:02 GMT
Subject: python won't uninstall
References: <447130B369629F4B88C1DD9299DCA43D202B81@hds-mbx1.hadassah-col.ac.il>
 <mailman.446.1493135814.2951.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <emcpiaF13bdU1@mid.individual.net>

On Tue, 25 Apr 2017 15:41:49 +0000, Shimon Mor <shimonmo at hadassah.ac.il> wrote:
> Hello,
> python won't uninstall..
> I'm trying to uninstall so I could reinstall it.. some command doesn't work.. 
>   like 'pip'.
> Help please,
> Thank you,
> Shimon

Too vague.  Provide more specifics.

-- 
To email me, substitute nowhere->runbox, invalid->com.


From torriem at gmail.com  Wed Apr 26 21:04:36 2017
From: torriem at gmail.com (Michael Torrie)
Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2017 19:04:36 -0600
Subject: python won't uninstall
In-Reply-To: <447130B369629F4B88C1DD9299DCA43D202B81@hds-mbx1.hadassah-col.ac.il>
References: <447130B369629F4B88C1DD9299DCA43D202B81@hds-mbx1.hadassah-col.ac.il>
Message-ID: <78dd4c8a-9541-cfab-7ea5-478e3a961fe4@gmail.com>

On 04/25/2017 09:41 AM, Shimon Mor wrote:
> Hello,
> python won't uninstall..
> I'm trying to uninstall so I could reinstall it.. some command doesn't work.. like 'pip'.
> Help please,
> Thank you,
> Shimon
> [cid:image001.jpg at 01D2BD37.046F7530]<http://www.hadassah.ac.il/>

If you attached an image, we won't be able to see it. This list filters
out all attachments.

What installer did you try, what operating system are you using?  What
uninstall method did you use?  What error messages are you getting?


From cfkaran2 at gmail.com  Wed Apr 26 22:38:23 2017
From: cfkaran2 at gmail.com (Cem Karan)
Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2017 22:38:23 -0400
Subject: Battle of the garbage collectors, or ARGGHHHHHH!!!!
In-Reply-To: <slrnoft7o7.2ms.jon+usenet@sable.unequivocal.eu>
References: <CAENTz_XOrrRJYCJJ_vLef+gZoPO-w-9WCKt5Qo7LJejAe7_Fkg@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.435.1493072662.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <slrnoft7o7.2ms.jon+usenet@sable.unequivocal.eu>
Message-ID: <4CB44371-19CA-4463-B576-DDA570F8879E@gmail.com>


On Apr 24, 2017, at 8:54 PM, Jon Ribbens <jon+usenet at unequivocal.eu> wrote:

> On 2017-04-24, CFK <cfkaran2 at gmail.com> wrote:
>> Long version: I'm trying to write bindings for python via ctypes to control
>> a library written in C that uses the bdwgc garbage collector (
>> http://www.hboehm.info/gc/).  The bindings mostly work, except for when
>> either bdwgc or python's garbage collector decide to get into an argument
>> over what is garbage and what isn't, in which case I get a segfault because
>> one or the other collector has already reaped the memory.
> 
> Make your Python C objects contain a pointer to a
> GC_MALLOC_UNCOLLECTABLE block that contains a pointer to the
> bwdgc object it's an interface to? And GC_FREE it in tp_dealloc?
> Then bwdgc won't free any C memory that Python is referencing.

OK, I realized today that there was a miscommunication somewhere.  My python code is all pure python, and the library is pure C, and it is not designed to be called by python (it's intended to be language neutral, so if someone wants to call it from a different language, they can).  That means that tp_dealloc (which is part of the python C API) is probably not going to work.

I got interrupted (again) so I didn't have a chance to try the next trick and register the ctypes objects as roots from which to scan in bdwgc, but I'm hoping that roots aren't removed.  If that works, I'll post it to the list.

Thanks,
Cem Karan

From sumitsuman6258 at gmail.com  Thu Apr 27 08:32:27 2017
From: sumitsuman6258 at gmail.com (SUMIT SUMAN)
Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2017 18:02:27 +0530
Subject: One more problem that.....................
Message-ID: <CAGTfuAeszuWgp-eiwmi2=s_sW2W5aPCEcwgyuf2KfaMsTCs-Rg@mail.gmail.com>

The C runtime Update(KB2999226) in Python 3.6.1 installation is taking very
much time to complete , what can I do? Please help!!!


From iranna.gani28 at gmail.com  Thu Apr 27 10:18:24 2017
From: iranna.gani28 at gmail.com (Iranna Mathapati)
Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2017 19:48:24 +0530
Subject: Thread getting stuck\hang
Message-ID: <CAA4=HD52XSHSDpHxyjtV05qy9aNM9K=y2eWsRvSWQ1Wa8kBfCw@mail.gmail.com>

Hi Team,

I have python code that creates  thread.Sometimes it works, sometimes it
gets stuck once its finish its execution part. still not yet cannot find
any difference between when it works or when it gets stuck. Please help.


sniffer1 =
threading.Thread(target=validate_traffic_stats_dy,args=(FT_item_dy,RT_item_dy,forward_path_list_dy,return_path_list_dy,nat_type_list_dy,pkt_dy_1,))

sniffer2 =
threading.Thread(target=validate_traffic_stats_st,args=(FT_item_st,RT_item_st,forward_path_list_st,return_path_list_st,nat_type_list_st,pkt_st,))

sniffer1.start()

sniffer2.start()

sniffer3 = threading.Thread(target=delete_new_dynamic_nat_conf)

sniffer3.start()



sniffer1.join()

sniffer2.join()

sniffer3.join()



Thanks,

Iranna m


From iranna.gani28 at gmail.com  Thu Apr 27 12:46:06 2017
From: iranna.gani28 at gmail.com (Iranna Mathapati)
Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2017 22:16:06 +0530
Subject: Thread getting stuck\hang
In-Reply-To: <np34gcdeh07vb34k56hbpdttclelep44sg@4ax.com>
References: <CAA4=HD52XSHSDpHxyjtV05qy9aNM9K=y2eWsRvSWQ1Wa8kBfCw@mail.gmail.com>
 <np34gcdeh07vb34k56hbpdttclelep44sg@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <CAA4=HD64wr3AHadgRwWBU4tE2RiSr=bhY-FAtDcNviKxRDs4hw@mail.gmail.com>

Hi Dennis,

all function arguments declare as global and pass it to the function.

All three thread is completed the execution part and after completion of
execution its stuck/hang the programme.

*def
validate_traffic_stats_st(FT_item,RT_item,forward_path_list,return_path_list,nat_type_list,pkt_st)*
:
    global flag1
    flag1 = 1

    log.info('Starting Static NAT forward Traffic Test...')

    returndict = itgen_explorer.startTrafficFlows(testbeddict,
log,'-traffic_items {0} -pktcount {1}  -profile
{2}'.format(FT_item,pkt_st,itgenProfile))
    time.sleep(5)
    global_stats_list = []
    temp = 0
    forward_ip_list = []
    return_ip_list = []
    global count_st_Rx,count_st_in_Rx,count_st_out_Rx
    count_st_Rx = 0
    count_st_in_Rx = 0
    count_st_out_Rx = 0
    for data in returndict['txrxstats']['rx'].keys():
        if "TI01" in data:
            count_st_Rx += int(returndict['txrxstats']['rx'][data] )
            count_st_in_Rx += int(returndict['txrxstats']['rx'][data] )
        elif "TI22" in data:
            count_st_Rx += int(returndict['txrxstats']['rx'][data] )
            count_st_out_Rx += int(returndict['txrxstats']['rx'][data] )

    global count_st_Tx,count_st_in_Tx,count_st_out_Tx
    count_st_Tx = 0
    count_st_in_Tx = 0
    count_st_out_Tx = 0

    for data in returndict['txrxstats']['tx'].keys():
        if "TI01" in data:
            count_st_Tx += int(returndict['txrxstats']['tx'][data] )
            count_st_in_Tx += int(returndict['txrxstats']['tx'][data] )
        elif "TI22" in data:
            count_st_Tx += int(returndict['txrxstats']['tx'][data] )
            count_st_out_Tx += int(returndict['txrxstats']['tx'][data] )


    for forward_ip_list,return_ip_list,nat_type in zip
(forward_path_list,return_path_list,nat_type_list):
        global_stats_list = []
        for translation_ip,return_ip in zip
(forward_ip_list,return_ip_list):
            output=listtostr(returndict['txrxstats']['rx'])
            if re.search('{0}'.format(translation_ip),output,re.I):
                pass
            else:
                global_stats_list.append(translation_ip)
        if global_stats_list == []:
            log.info('itgen traffic validation for {0} forward path -
verified'.format(nat_type))
            forward_ip_list = []
            return_ip_list = []
        else:
            log.error('{0} forward path itgen verification
failed'.format(nat_type))
            flag1 = 0
            return flag1
    log.info("Trafiic validation for NAT return path starting")
    returndict = itgen_explorer.startTrafficFlows(testbeddict,
log,'-traffic_items {0} -pktcount 1000  -profile
{1}'.format(RT_item,itgenProfile))
    time.sleep(5)
    local_stats_list = []
    for forward_ip_list,return_ip_list,nat_type in zip
(forward_path_list,return_path_list,nat_type_list):
        local_stats_list = []
        for translation_ip,return_ip in zip
(forward_ip_list,return_ip_list):
            output=listtostr(returndict['txrxstats']['rx'])
            if re.search('{0}'.format(return_ip),output,re.I):
                pass
            else:
                local_stats_list.append(return_ip)
        if local_stats_list == []:
            log.info('itgen traffic validation for {0} return path -
verified'.format(nat_type))
            forward_ip_list = []
            return_ip_list = []
        else:
            log.error('{0} return path itgen verification
failed'.format(nat_type))
            flag1 = 0
            return flag1

    return
flag1,count_st_Rx,count_st_in_Rx,count_st_out_Rx,count_st_Tx,count_st_in_Tx,count_st_out_Tx

*def
validate_traffic_stats_dy(FT_item,RT_item,forward_path_list,return_path_list,nat_type_list,pkt_dy_1):*
    global flag2
    flag2 = 1
    log.info('Starting Dynamic NAT forward Traffic Test...')

    returndict = itgen_explorer.startTrafficFlows(testbeddict,
log,'-traffic_items {0} -pktcount {1}  -profile
{2}'.format(FT_item,pkt_dy_1,itgenProfile))
    time.sleep(5)
    global_stats_list = []
    forward_ip_list = []
    return_ip_list = []
    global count_dy_Rx,count_dy_in_Rx,count_dy_out_Rx
    count_dy_Rx = 0
    count_dy_in_Rx = 0
    count_dy_out_Rx = 0
    for data in returndict['txrxstats']['rx'].keys():
        if "TI05" in data:
            count_dy_Rx += int(returndict['txrxstats']['rx'][data] )
            count_dy_in_Rx += int(returndict['txrxstats']['rx'][data] )
        elif "TI66" in data:
            count_dy_Rx += int(returndict['txrxstats']['rx'][data] )
            count_dy_out_Rx += int(returndict['txrxstats']['rx'][data] )

    global count_dy_Tx,count_dy_in_Tx,count_dy_out_Tx
    count_dy_Tx = 0
    count_dy_in_Tx = 0
    count_dy_out_Tx = 0
    for data in returndict['txrxstats']['tx'].keys():
        if "TI05" in data:
            count_dy_Tx += int(returndict['txrxstats']['tx'][data] )
            count_dy_in_Tx += int(returndict['txrxstats']['tx'][data] )
        elif "TI66" in data:
            count_dy_Tx += int(returndict['txrxstats']['tx'][data] )
            count_dy_out_Tx += int(returndict['txrxstats']['tx'][data] )

    for forward_ip_list,return_ip_list,nat_type in zip
(forward_path_list,return_path_list,nat_type_list):
        global_stats_list = []
        for translation_ip,return_ip in zip
(forward_ip_list,return_ip_list):
            output=listtostr(returndict['txrxstats']['rx'])
            if re.search('{0}'.format(translation_ip),output,re.I):
                pass
            else:
                global_stats_list.append(translation_ip)
        if global_stats_list == []:
            log.info('itgen traffic validation for {0} forward path -
verified'.format(nat_type))
            forward_ip_list = []
            return_ip_list = []
        else:
            log.error('{0} forward path itgen verification
failed'.format(nat_type))
            flag2 = 0
            return flag2
    log.info("Trafiic validation for NAT return path starting")
    returndict = itgen_explorer.startTrafficFlows(testbeddict,
log,'-traffic_items {0} -pktcount 1000  -profile
{1}'.format(RT_item,itgenProfile))
    time.sleep(5)
    local_stats_list = []
    for forward_ip_list,return_ip_list,nat_type in zip
(forward_path_list,return_path_list,nat_type_list):
        local_stats_list = []
        for translation_ip,return_ip in zip
(forward_ip_list,return_ip_list):
            output=listtostr(returndict['txrxstats']['rx'])
            if re.search('{0}'.format(return_ip),output,re.I):
                pass
            else:
                local_stats_list.append(return_ip)
        if local_stats_list == []:
            log.info('itgen traffic validation for {0} return path -
verified'.format(nat_type))
            forward_ip_list = []
            return_ip_list = []
        else:
            log.error('{0} return path itgen verification
failed'.format(nat_type))
            flag2 = 0
            return flag2
    return
flag2,count_dy_Rx,count_dy_in_Rx,count_dy_out_Rx,count_dy_Tx,count_dy_in_Tx,count_dy_out_Tx

*def* *delete_new_dynamic_nat_conf():*
    global pool_dy_in_new,acl_name_dy_in_new,pool_name_dy_in_new
    direction_in = 'inside'
    log.info("Deleting Dynamic NAT new entries")
    delete_dynamic_nat_conf(uut2_hdl2, direction_in,
                            acl_name_dy_in_new,
                            pool_name_dy_in_new,
                            )
    #remove pool and acl name
    log.info('Removing access-list')
    deleteACL(uut2_hdl2, log, '-type {0} -name {1}'.format('ip',
acl_name_dy_in_new))
    log.info('Unconfiguring pool on UUT')
    add_remove_pool(uut2_hdl2, 'unconfigure', pool_dy_in_new)
    return 1

On Thu, Apr 27, 2017 at 9:04 PM, Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed at ix.netcom.com>
wrote:

> On Thu, 27 Apr 2017 19:48:24 +0530, Iranna Mathapati
> <iranna.gani28 at gmail.com> declaimed the following:
>
> >Hi Team,
> >
> >I have python code that creates  thread.Sometimes it works, sometimes it
> >gets stuck once its finish its execution part. still not yet cannot find
> >any difference between when it works or when it gets stuck. Please help.
> >
> >
> >sniffer1 =
> >threading.Thread(target=validate_traffic_stats_dy,
> args=(FT_item_dy,RT_item_dy,forward_path_list_dy,return_
> path_list_dy,nat_type_list_dy,pkt_dy_1,))
> >
> >sniffer2 =
> >threading.Thread(target=validate_traffic_stats_st,
> args=(FT_item_st,RT_item_st,forward_path_list_st,return_
> path_list_st,nat_type_list_st,pkt_st,))
> >
> >sniffer1.start()
> >
> >sniffer2.start()
> >
> >sniffer3 = threading.Thread(target=delete_new_dynamic_nat_conf)
> >
> >sniffer3.start()
> >
>
>         So where is the code for the three thread functions? Where do the
> various argument values come from?
> --
>         Wulfraed                 Dennis Lee Bieber         AF6VN
>     wlfraed at ix.netcom.com    HTTP://wlfraed.home.netcom.com/
>
> --
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
>


From sivas.postbox at gmail.com  Thu Apr 27 13:39:41 2017
From: sivas.postbox at gmail.com (Siva Kumar S)
Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2017 10:39:41 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: ValueError: Input contains NaN,
 infinity or a value too large for dtype('float32')
Message-ID: <f5e77d75-4837-4b99-be96-bc01fc9683db@googlegroups.com>

Source Code:

clean_train_reviews=[]
for review in train["review"]:
    clean_train_reviews.append(review_to_wordlist(review, remove_stopwords=True))

trainDataVecs=getAvgFeatureVecs(clean_train_reviews, model, num_features)

print "Creating average feature vecs for test reviews"
clean_test_reviews=[]
for review in test["review"]:
    clean_test_reviews.append(review_to_wordlist(review,remove_stopwords=True))

testDataVecs=getAvgFeatureVecs(clean_test_reviews, model, num_features)

forest = RandomForestClassifier(n_estimators = 100)

forest = forest.fit(trainDataVecs, train["sentiment"])

result = forest.predict(testDataVecs)

output = pd.DataFrame(data={"id":test["id"], "sentiment":result})
output.to_csv("Word2Vec_AverageVectors.csv", index=False, quoting=3)

Error Message:

Traceback (most recent call last):
  File "/test_IMDB_W2V_RF.py", line 224, in <module>
    result = forest.predict(testDataVecs)
  File "/.local/lib/python2.7/site-packages/sklearn/ensemble/forest.py", line 534, in predict
    proba = self.predict_proba(X)
  File "/.local/lib/python2.7/site-packages/sklearn/ensemble/forest.py", line 573, in predict_proba
    X = self._validate_X_predict(X)
  File "/.local/lib/python2.7/site-packages/sklearn/ensemble/forest.py", line 355, in _validate_X_predict
    return self.estimators_[0]._validate_X_predict(X, check_input=True)
  File "/.local/lib/python2.7/site-packages/sklearn/tree/tree.py", line 365, in _validate_X_predict
    X = check_array(X, dtype=DTYPE, accept_sparse="csr")
  File "/.local/lib/python2.7/site-packages/sklearn/utils/validation.py", line 407, in check_array
    _assert_all_finite(array)
  File "/.local/lib/python2.7/site-packages/sklearn/utils/validation.py", line 58, in _assert_all_finite
    " or a value too large for %r." % X.dtype)
ValueError: Input contains NaN, infinity or a value too large for dtype('float32').

Process finished with exit code 1


Description :
Can any one help with the error message.


From rhodri at kynesim.co.uk  Thu Apr 27 14:22:23 2017
From: rhodri at kynesim.co.uk (Rhodri James)
Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2017 19:22:23 +0100
Subject: ValueError: Input contains NaN, infinity or a value too large for
 dtype('float32')
In-Reply-To: <f5e77d75-4837-4b99-be96-bc01fc9683db@googlegroups.com>
References: <f5e77d75-4837-4b99-be96-bc01fc9683db@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <de0a91b6-b5d3-a6ea-1eeb-e2827751eda0@kynesim.co.uk>

On 27/04/17 18:39, Siva Kumar S wrote:
> Source Code:
>
> clean_train_reviews=[]
> for review in train["review"]:
>     clean_train_reviews.append(review_to_wordlist(review, remove_stopwords=True))
>
> trainDataVecs=getAvgFeatureVecs(clean_train_reviews, model, num_features)
>
> print "Creating average feature vecs for test reviews"
> clean_test_reviews=[]
> for review in test["review"]:
>     clean_test_reviews.append(review_to_wordlist(review,remove_stopwords=True))
>
> testDataVecs=getAvgFeatureVecs(clean_test_reviews, model, num_features)
>
> forest = RandomForestClassifier(n_estimators = 100)
>
> forest = forest.fit(trainDataVecs, train["sentiment"])
>
> result = forest.predict(testDataVecs)
>
> output = pd.DataFrame(data={"id":test["id"], "sentiment":result})
> output.to_csv("Word2Vec_AverageVectors.csv", index=False, quoting=3)
>
> Error Message:
>
> Traceback (most recent call last):
>   File "/test_IMDB_W2V_RF.py", line 224, in <module>
>     result = forest.predict(testDataVecs)
>   File "/.local/lib/python2.7/site-packages/sklearn/ensemble/forest.py", line 534, in predict
>     proba = self.predict_proba(X)
>   File "/.local/lib/python2.7/site-packages/sklearn/ensemble/forest.py", line 573, in predict_proba
>     X = self._validate_X_predict(X)
>   File "/.local/lib/python2.7/site-packages/sklearn/ensemble/forest.py", line 355, in _validate_X_predict
>     return self.estimators_[0]._validate_X_predict(X, check_input=True)
>   File "/.local/lib/python2.7/site-packages/sklearn/tree/tree.py", line 365, in _validate_X_predict
>     X = check_array(X, dtype=DTYPE, accept_sparse="csr")
>   File "/.local/lib/python2.7/site-packages/sklearn/utils/validation.py", line 407, in check_array
>     _assert_all_finite(array)
>   File "/.local/lib/python2.7/site-packages/sklearn/utils/validation.py", line 58, in _assert_all_finite
>     " or a value too large for %r." % X.dtype)
> ValueError: Input contains NaN, infinity or a value too large for dtype('float32').
>
> Process finished with exit code 1
>
>
> Description :
> Can any one help with the error message.

It means exactly what it says.  One of the values in your testDataVecs 
(I assume) is not a number, infinite or too big for a 32-bit IEEE float 
to represent.  You may be using the sklearn package incorrectly; you'll 
have to read the (apparently quite prolific) documentation yourself, 
I've never used it.

-- 
Rhodri James *-* Kynesim Ltd


From tjreedy at udel.edu  Thu Apr 27 14:25:52 2017
From: tjreedy at udel.edu (Terry Reedy)
Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2017 14:25:52 -0400
Subject: ValueError: Input contains NaN, infinity or a value too large for
 dtype('float32')
In-Reply-To: <f5e77d75-4837-4b99-be96-bc01fc9683db@googlegroups.com>
References: <f5e77d75-4837-4b99-be96-bc01fc9683db@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <odtd3e$ucc$1@blaine.gmane.org>

On 4/27/2017 1:39 PM, Siva Kumar S wrote:
> Source Code:
> 
> clean_train_reviews=[]
> for review in train["review"]:
>      clean_train_reviews.append(review_to_wordlist(review, remove_stopwords=True))
> 
> trainDataVecs=getAvgFeatureVecs(clean_train_reviews, model, num_features)
> 
> print "Creating average feature vecs for test reviews"
> clean_test_reviews=[]
> for review in test["review"]:
>      clean_test_reviews.append(review_to_wordlist(review,remove_stopwords=True))
> 
> testDataVecs=getAvgFeatureVecs(clean_test_reviews, model, num_features)
> 
> forest = RandomForestClassifier(n_estimators = 100)
> 
> forest = forest.fit(trainDataVecs, train["sentiment"])
> 
> result = forest.predict(testDataVecs)
> 
> output = pd.DataFrame(data={"id":test["id"], "sentiment":result})
> output.to_csv("Word2Vec_AverageVectors.csv", index=False, quoting=3)
> 
> Error Message:
> 
> Traceback (most recent call last):
>    File "/test_IMDB_W2V_RF.py", line 224, in <module>
>      result = forest.predict(testDataVecs)
>    File "/.local/lib/python2.7/site-packages/sklearn/ensemble/forest.py", line 534, in predict
>      proba = self.predict_proba(X)
>    File "/.local/lib/python2.7/site-packages/sklearn/ensemble/forest.py", line 573, in predict_proba
>      X = self._validate_X_predict(X)
>    File "/.local/lib/python2.7/site-packages/sklearn/ensemble/forest.py", line 355, in _validate_X_predict
>      return self.estimators_[0]._validate_X_predict(X, check_input=True)
>    File "/.local/lib/python2.7/site-packages/sklearn/tree/tree.py", line 365, in _validate_X_predict
>      X = check_array(X, dtype=DTYPE, accept_sparse="csr")
>    File "/.local/lib/python2.7/site-packages/sklearn/utils/validation.py", line 407, in check_array
>      _assert_all_finite(array)
>    File "/.local/lib/python2.7/site-packages/sklearn/utils/validation.py", line 58, in _assert_all_finite
>      " or a value too large for %r." % X.dtype)
> ValueError: Input contains NaN, infinity or a value too large for dtype('float32').
> 
> Process finished with exit code 1
> 
> 
> Description :
> Can any one help with the error message.

What part of the error message do you need help with?


-- 
Terry Jan Reedy



From katarin.bern at gmail.com  Thu Apr 27 15:10:20 2017
From: katarin.bern at gmail.com (katarin.bern at gmail.com)
Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2017 12:10:20 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Array column separations for beginners
In-Reply-To: <23158e0f-55a4-4ad1-9fa9-09e4e79c39cf@googlegroups.com>
References: <23158e0f-55a4-4ad1-9fa9-09e4e79c39cf@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <9b981c70-6e2e-4bc9-836b-4b30c9af586c@googlegroups.com>

Thanks a lot, it helped me. 

I have new question..maybe very easy but I am trying to search on web and I have no clue.
I have array(table) with 3 rows - x, y, y. I would like to plot graph with double y axis from that table. Should I use twinxs? or does exist easier way?
Thanks!


From breamoreboy at gmail.com  Thu Apr 27 15:27:09 2017
From: breamoreboy at gmail.com (breamoreboy at gmail.com)
Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2017 12:27:09 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Array column separations for beginners
In-Reply-To: <9b981c70-6e2e-4bc9-836b-4b30c9af586c@googlegroups.com>
References: <23158e0f-55a4-4ad1-9fa9-09e4e79c39cf@googlegroups.com>
 <9b981c70-6e2e-4bc9-836b-4b30c9af586c@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <677c1aa3-9737-4f6f-bab7-4d233079d201@googlegroups.com>

On Thursday, April 27, 2017 at 8:10:33 PM UTC+1, katari... at gmail.com wrote:
> Thanks a lot, it helped me. 
> 
> I have new question..maybe very easy but I am trying to search on web and I have no clue.
> I have array(table) with 3 rows - x, y, y. I would like to plot graph with double y axis from that table. Should I use twinxs? or does exist easier way?
> Thanks!

http://matplotlib.org/examples/api/two_scales.html

Kindest regards.

Mark Lawrence.


From cfkaran2 at gmail.com  Thu Apr 27 16:55:00 2017
From: cfkaran2 at gmail.com (CFK)
Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2017 16:55:00 -0400
Subject: Unable to subclass ctypes.c_uint64: was: Re: Battle of the garbage
 collectors, or ARGGHHHHHH!!!!
Message-ID: <CAENTz_Xi77c40mPY6An-CbdRViFu17DCK860L3dU-GK4LBmGCg@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Apr 26, 2017 at 10:38 PM, Cem Karan <cfkaran2 at gmail.com> wrote:

>
> On Apr 24, 2017, at 8:54 PM, Jon Ribbens <jon+usenet at unequivocal.eu>
> wrote:
>
> > On 2017-04-24, CFK <cfkaran2 at gmail.com> wrote:
> >> Long version: I'm trying to write bindings for python via ctypes to
> control
> >> a library written in C that uses the bdwgc garbage collector (
> >> http://www.hboehm.info/gc/).  The bindings mostly work, except for when
> >> either bdwgc or python's garbage collector decide to get into an
> argument
> >> over what is garbage and what isn't, in which case I get a segfault
> because
> >> one or the other collector has already reaped the memory.
> >
> > Make your Python C objects contain a pointer to a
> > GC_MALLOC_UNCOLLECTABLE block that contains a pointer to the
> > bwdgc object it's an interface to? And GC_FREE it in tp_dealloc?
> > Then bwdgc won't free any C memory that Python is referencing.
>
> OK, I realized today that there was a miscommunication somewhere.  My
> python code is all pure python, and the library is pure C, and it is not
> designed to be called by python (it's intended to be language neutral, so
> if someone wants to call it from a different language, they can).  That
> means that tp_dealloc (which is part of the python C API) is probably not
> going to work.
>
> I got interrupted (again) so I didn't have a chance to try the next trick
> and register the ctypes objects as roots from which to scan in bdwgc, but
> I'm hoping that roots aren't removed.  If that works, I'll post it to the
> list.
>
> Thanks,
> Cem Karan


I'm still working on fixing the battle of the garbage collectors, but as a
part of that work I've realized that it would be handy for me to subclass
various ctypes like so:

"""
from ctypes import *
class foo(c_uint64):
    def __init__(self, *args, **kwargs):
        super().__init__(*args, **kwargs)
        #Additional setup work here, including marking this type as
something bdwgc should alone
    def __del__(self):
        #Allow anything not owned by python to be reclaimed by bdwgc
        super().__del__()
"""

Where the additional work would shift the type from being in the root set
to out of it, and (I hope) stopping the battle of the garbage collectors.
The issue is that while the above code works in python 3.4 and earlier, I
get the following from python 3.6.1:

"""
Traceback (most recent call last):
  File "<stdin>", line 1, in <module>
TypeError: __class__ set to <class '__main__.foo'> defining 'foo' as <class
'__main__.foo'>
"""

Is this the way of the future, or is this a bug that should be reported
appropriately?

Relevant info:

"""
$ python
Python 3.6.1 (default, Apr 24 2017, 08:00:07)
[GCC 4.2.1 Compatible Apple LLVM 8.1.0 (clang-802.0.42)] on darwin
Type "help", "copyright", "credits" or "license" for more information.
>>> exit()
$ uname -a
Darwin Mac-Pro.local 16.5.0 Darwin Kernel Version 16.5.0: Fri Mar  3
16:52:33 PST 2017; root:xnu-3789.51.2~3/RELEASE_X86_64 x86_64
$ sw_vers
ProductName:    Mac OS X
ProductVersion:    10.12.4
BuildVersion:    16E195
"""

Thanks,
Cem Karan


From eryksun at gmail.com  Thu Apr 27 18:42:01 2017
From: eryksun at gmail.com (eryk sun)
Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2017 22:42:01 +0000
Subject: Unable to subclass ctypes.c_uint64: was: Re: Battle of the
 garbage collectors, or ARGGHHHHHH!!!!
In-Reply-To: <CAENTz_Xi77c40mPY6An-CbdRViFu17DCK860L3dU-GK4LBmGCg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAENTz_Xi77c40mPY6An-CbdRViFu17DCK860L3dU-GK4LBmGCg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CACL+1au4kxzqKdBujM1f3frY31okdqbFf0Z45mpTjhmtVwTjQw@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Apr 27, 2017 at 8:55 PM, CFK <cfkaran2 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I'm still working on fixing the battle of the garbage collectors, but as a
> part of that work I've realized that it would be handy for me to subclass
> various ctypes like so:
>
> """
> from ctypes import *
> class foo(c_uint64):
>     def __init__(self, *args, **kwargs):
>         super().__init__(*args, **kwargs)
>         #Additional setup work here, including marking this type as
> something bdwgc should alone
>     def __del__(self):
>         #Allow anything not owned by python to be reclaimed by bdwgc
>         super().__del__()

See http://bugs.python.org/issue29270.

You can still use c_uint64.__init__(self, value) explicitly. However,
super().__del__() shouldn't work anyway. ctypes uses tp_traverse and
tp_clear, not tp_finalize (or tp_del), so there is no c_uint64.__del__
method.

Its tp_clear is PyCData_clear, which frees the object's internal b_ptr
if b_needsfree (i.e. the _b_needsfree_ attribute) is true, i.e. the
object owns the referenced memory, and the object is currently using
an allocated buffer as opposed to the default internal buffer. Many
ctypes instances do not own the memory referenced by b_ptr. This
includes dereferenced pointers and struct/array aggregate elements
(assuming it's not a base simple type that gets converted to a Python
native type) as well instances created with the from_buffer and
from_address constructors.


From wizardinthewoods at gmail.com  Fri Apr 28 00:05:50 2017
From: wizardinthewoods at gmail.com (Mike Reveile)
Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2017 21:05:50 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Bigotry (you win, I give up)
In-Reply-To: <mailman.301.1492620244.2951.python-list@python.org>
References: <682806876.3732405.1492619022353.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
 <682806876.3732405.1492619022353@mail.yahoo.com>
 <mailman.301.1492620244.2951.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <25b85a23-e9cd-4767-a240-5216a0704a11@googlegroups.com>

On Wednesday, April 19, 2017 at 9:44:15 AM UTC-7, Rurpy wrote:
> On 04/18/2017 04:34 PM, Chris Angelico wrote:
> > On Wed, Apr 19, 2017 at 8:28 AM, Ben Finney <ben+python at benfinney.id.au> wrote:
> >> Chris Angelico <rosuav at gmail.com> writes:
> >>
<<snip>>

Interesting thread... but volatile.
I find imaginary numbers to be quite useful for understanding real problems... but I do not try to make them real. They are simply useful ways of looking at the real world.
I do the same thing when I think of gods and monsters... useful, but not real.

Therefore, I have no problems with any religions or beliefs or unqualified theories that serve to help one deal with real world issues... until the believer or adherent becomes an instigator of issues and accuser of errors.


From rustompmody at gmail.com  Fri Apr 28 00:19:32 2017
From: rustompmody at gmail.com (Rustom Mody)
Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2017 21:19:32 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Bigotry (you win, I give up)
In-Reply-To: <25b85a23-e9cd-4767-a240-5216a0704a11@googlegroups.com>
References: <682806876.3732405.1492619022353.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
 <682806876.3732405.1492619022353@mail.yahoo.com>
 <mailman.301.1492620244.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <25b85a23-e9cd-4767-a240-5216a0704a11@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <dff74c2c-319d-4c7c-b748-82ccefdfcff3@googlegroups.com>

On Friday, April 28, 2017 at 9:36:02 AM UTC+5:30, Mike Reveile wrote:
> On Wednesday, April 19, 2017 at 9:44:15 AM UTC-7, Rurpy wrote:
> > On 04/18/2017 04:34 PM, Chris Angelico wrote:
> > > On Wed, Apr 19, 2017 at 8:28 AM, Ben Finney  wrote:
> > >> Chris Angelico writes:
> > >>
> <<snip>>
> 
> Interesting thread... but volatile.
> I find imaginary numbers to be quite useful for understanding real problems... but I do not try to make them real. They are simply useful ways of looking at the real world.
> I do the same thing when I think of gods and monsters... useful, but not real.
> 
> Therefore, I have no problems with any religions or beliefs or unqualified theories that serve to help one deal with real world issues... until the believer or adherent becomes an instigator of issues and accuser of errors.

Thanks for that

I find this 
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10154620461548763&set=a.51095183762.64373.542743762
funny (and somewhat insightful)

Some will find it racist, 'religionist'(?) I guess?


From rustompmody at gmail.com  Fri Apr 28 00:36:17 2017
From: rustompmody at gmail.com (Rustom Mody)
Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2017 21:36:17 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Bigotry (you win, I give up)
In-Reply-To: <25b85a23-e9cd-4767-a240-5216a0704a11@googlegroups.com>
References: <682806876.3732405.1492619022353.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
 <682806876.3732405.1492619022353@mail.yahoo.com>
 <mailman.301.1492620244.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <25b85a23-e9cd-4767-a240-5216a0704a11@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <1963549d-551c-480a-89fe-0dc82a0fe924@googlegroups.com>

On Friday, April 28, 2017 at 9:36:02 AM UTC+5:30, Mike Reveile wrote:
> On Wednesday, April 19, 2017 at 9:44:15 AM UTC-7, Rurpy wrote:
> > On 04/18/2017 04:34 PM, Chris Angelico wrote:
> > > On Wed, Apr 19, 2017 at 8:28 AM, Ben Finney wrote:
> > >> Chris Angelico writes:
> > >>
> <<snip>>
> 
> Interesting thread... but volatile.
> I find imaginary numbers to be quite useful for understanding real problems... but I do not try to make them real. They are simply useful ways of looking at the real world.
> I do the same thing when I think of gods and monsters... useful, but not real.


Lets call real in the math sense real? ? ie real-number, imaginary-umber etc
Lets call real in the ordinary sense real? ?ie having existence

History suggests that real? was a defiant attempt by mathematicians
to cock a snook at other mathematicians who contended that the set ? was un-real?

Interestingly these arguments led to the establishment of the field of computer
science: http://blog.languager.org/2015/03/cs-history-0.html

Personal Note: As a 11-year old reading George Gamov 1-2-3-?, I had a great
deal of trouble understanding imaginary numbers.
Later when studying it in math-class I managed to get along with them by
playing by the symbol-manipulation rules
Much later I understood why I did not understand: The word 'imaginary' was cueing
me ? subconsciously of course ? 
This is not real...
This is not true...
This is not...
What the &*^%#% is this??

And still later... learnt from Dijkstra the term 'lousy-language' and its consequences


From wizardinthewoods at gmail.com  Fri Apr 28 00:47:09 2017
From: wizardinthewoods at gmail.com (Mike Reveile)
Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2017 21:47:09 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Bigotry (you win, I give up)
In-Reply-To: <dff74c2c-319d-4c7c-b748-82ccefdfcff3@googlegroups.com>
References: <682806876.3732405.1492619022353.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
 <682806876.3732405.1492619022353@mail.yahoo.com>
 <mailman.301.1492620244.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <25b85a23-e9cd-4767-a240-5216a0704a11@googlegroups.com>
 <dff74c2c-319d-4c7c-b748-82ccefdfcff3@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <29896d6c-09af-4a68-9522-66d7c9d6a2df@googlegroups.com>

On Thursday, April 27, 2017 at 9:19:43 PM UTC-7, Rustom Mody wrote:
> On Friday, April 28, 2017 at 9:36:02 AM UTC+5:30, Mike Reveile wrote:
> > On Wednesday, April 19, 2017 at 9:44:15 AM UTC-7, Rurpy wrote:
> > > On 04/18/2017 04:34 PM, Chris Angelico wrote:
> > > > On Wed, Apr 19, 2017 at 8:28 AM, Ben Finney  wrote:
> > > >> Chris Angelico writes:
> > > >>
> > <<snip>>
> > 
> > Interesting thread... but volatile.
> > I find imaginary numbers to be quite useful for understanding real problems... but I do not try to make them real. They are simply useful ways of looking at the real world.
> > I do the same thing when I think of gods and monsters... useful, but not real.
> > 
> > Therefore, I have no problems with any religions or beliefs or unqualified theories that serve to help one deal with real world issues... until the believer or adherent becomes an instigator of issues and accuser of errors.
> 
> Thanks for that
> 
> I find this 
> https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10154620461548763&set=a.51095183762.64373.542743762
> funny (and somewhat insightful)
> 
> Some will find it racist, 'religionist'(?) I guess?

That is funny :)


From wizardinthewoods at gmail.com  Fri Apr 28 00:52:51 2017
From: wizardinthewoods at gmail.com (Mike Reveile)
Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2017 21:52:51 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Bigotry (you win, I give up)
In-Reply-To: <1963549d-551c-480a-89fe-0dc82a0fe924@googlegroups.com>
References: <682806876.3732405.1492619022353.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
 <682806876.3732405.1492619022353@mail.yahoo.com>
 <mailman.301.1492620244.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <25b85a23-e9cd-4767-a240-5216a0704a11@googlegroups.com>
 <1963549d-551c-480a-89fe-0dc82a0fe924@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <3ddf782a-7bb5-4b24-8fce-7f95749beb0f@googlegroups.com>

On Thursday, April 27, 2017 at 9:36:26 PM UTC-7, Rustom Mody wrote:
> On Friday, April 28, 2017 at 9:36:02 AM UTC+5:30, Mike Reveile wrote:
> > On Wednesday, April 19, 2017 at 9:44:15 AM UTC-7, Rurpy wrote:
> > > On 04/18/2017 04:34 PM, Chris Angelico wrote:
> > > > On Wed, Apr 19, 2017 at 8:28 AM, Ben Finney wrote:
> > > >> Chris Angelico writes:
> > > >>
> > <<snip>>
> > 
> > Interesting thread... but volatile.
> > I find imaginary numbers to be quite useful for understanding real problems... but I do not try to make them real. They are simply useful ways of looking at the real world.
> > I do the same thing when I think of gods and monsters... useful, but not real.
> 
> 
> Lets call real in the math sense real? ? ie real-number, imaginary-umber etc
> Lets call real in the ordinary sense real? ?ie having existence
> 
> History suggests that real? was a defiant attempt by mathematicians
> to cock a snook at other mathematicians who contended that the set ? was un-real?
> 
> Interestingly these arguments led to the establishment of the field of computer
> science: http://blog.languager.org/2015/03/cs-history-0.html
> 
> Personal Note: As a 11-year old reading George Gamov 1-2-3-?, I had a great
> deal of trouble understanding imaginary numbers.
> Later when studying it in math-class I managed to get along with them by
> playing by the symbol-manipulation rules
> Much later I understood why I did not understand: The word 'imaginary' was cueing
> me ? subconsciously of course ? 
> This is not real...
> This is not true...
> This is not...
> What the &*^%#% is this??
> 
> And still later... learnt from Dijkstra the term 'lousy-language' and its consequences

I can measure a Pineapple... by weight, volume, color, taste, smell, ripeness... but none of these numbers are the pineapple. They only help me relate to the pineapple. In this way Math itself (and the entire realm of computer science) is unreal.


From iranna.gani28 at gmail.com  Fri Apr 28 03:25:12 2017
From: iranna.gani28 at gmail.com (Iranna Mathapati)
Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2017 12:55:12 +0530
Subject: Thread getting stuck\hang
In-Reply-To: <5iu4gchjgfs9btq724km5o05mbhvtajipc@4ax.com>
References: <CAA4=HD52XSHSDpHxyjtV05qy9aNM9K=y2eWsRvSWQ1Wa8kBfCw@mail.gmail.com>
 <np34gcdeh07vb34k56hbpdttclelep44sg@4ax.com>
 <CAA4=HD64wr3AHadgRwWBU4tE2RiSr=bhY-FAtDcNviKxRDs4hw@mail.gmail.com>
 <5iu4gchjgfs9btq724km5o05mbhvtajipc@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <CAA4=HD6eiaESqV2J+82-Dexmf392e4jnusdpDd=4=QhL6rqsPw@mail.gmail.com>

Thanks Dennis,

On Fri, Apr 28, 2017 at 5:06 AM, Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed at ix.netcom.com>
wrote:

> On Thu, 27 Apr 2017 22:16:06 +0530, Iranna Mathapati
> <iranna.gani28 at gmail.com> declaimed the following:
>
> >Hi Dennis,
> >
> >all function arguments declare as global and pass it to the function.
> >
> >All three thread is completed the execution part and after completion of
> >execution its stuck/hang the programme.
> >
> >*def
> >validate_traffic_stats_st(FT_item,RT_item,forward_path_
> list,return_path_list,nat_type_list,pkt_st)*
> >:
> >    global flag1
> >    flag1 = 1
> >
>         Dangerous usage... Threads should not rely on writing to globals
> unless
> they surround all accesses to the global with a mutual exclusion lock -- OR
> there is only one thread allowed to ever write to the global (a common
> usage is for the main program to set a flag that signals threads to exit,
> and the threads periodically read the flag to see if it has been set).
>
>
>         <SNIP>
> >            log.error('{0} forward path itgen verification
> >failed'.format(nat_type))
> >            flag1 = 0
> >            return flag1
>
>         threads do not "return" data, they just exit
>
>         <SNIP>
> >    return
> >flag1,count_st_Rx,count_st_in_Rx,count_st_out_Rx,count_
> st_Tx,count_st_in_Tx,count_st_out_Tx
> >
>
>         Ditto -- all those items specified in the return are just being
> dumped
> on the floor.
>
>
>         Recommendations: GET RID OF ALL GLOBAL VARIABLES. If you MUST have
> shared global variables, you MUST surround access to the variables with
> mutual exclusion locks -- otherwise you run the risk of counters and lists
> getting out of sync. I'd also suggest compressing sharing down to single
> objects, not half a dozen ad-hoc names. That is:
>
> class St_Record(object):
>         def __init__(self):
>                 self.flag1 = True
>                 self.count_st_Rx = 0
>                 self.count_st_in_Rx = 0
>                 self.count_st_out_Rx = 0
>                 self.whatever = suitableInitValue
>
>                 etc. for any other item needed for "st"
>
>         Do a similar class for the "dy"
>
>
>         Instanciate one instance of each
>
> st_rec = St_Record()
> ...
>
>         And inside the relevant threads simply access as
>
>                 st_rec.count_st_Rx += ...
>
> Assuming these are only used by one thread (and the main program after they
> end) you don't even need to declare them global. Python will find the
> instances at the module level, and one can mutate the instance (ie; the
> contents) without needing to declare global.
>
>
>         "Lockup" of the program implies dead-lock, which usually means race
> conditions for the references to data objects between threads, or improper
> use of mutual exclusion.
> --
>         Wulfraed                 Dennis Lee Bieber         AF6VN
>     wlfraed at ix.netcom.com    HTTP://wlfraed.home.netcom.com/
>
> --
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
>


From iranna.gani28 at gmail.com  Fri Apr 28 05:12:33 2017
From: iranna.gani28 at gmail.com (Iranna Mathapati)
Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2017 14:42:33 +0530
Subject: Thread getting stuck\hang
In-Reply-To: <5iu4gchjgfs9btq724km5o05mbhvtajipc@4ax.com>
References: <CAA4=HD52XSHSDpHxyjtV05qy9aNM9K=y2eWsRvSWQ1Wa8kBfCw@mail.gmail.com>
 <np34gcdeh07vb34k56hbpdttclelep44sg@4ax.com>
 <CAA4=HD64wr3AHadgRwWBU4tE2RiSr=bhY-FAtDcNviKxRDs4hw@mail.gmail.com>
 <5iu4gchjgfs9btq724km5o05mbhvtajipc@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <CAA4=HD7B0Q=FtU74i0TL5P6Q6Mc-riHx3Wasp4nHv6Rfu8p2CA@mail.gmail.com>

Hi Dennis,

Two threads(_st and _dy targets) sharing the same user define function at
the same  time...This is the reason for hang/stuck?

in both the thread ,we are calling same user define function
(itgen_explorer.startTrafficFlows) and greping the values from return
function ,using it in main function.


On Fri, Apr 28, 2017 at 5:06 AM, Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed at ix.netcom.com>
wrote:

> On Thu, 27 Apr 2017 22:16:06 +0530, Iranna Mathapati
> <iranna.gani28 at gmail.com> declaimed the following:
>
> >Hi Dennis,
> >
> >all function arguments declare as global and pass it to the function.
> >
> >All three thread is completed the execution part and after completion of
> >execution its stuck/hang the programme.
> >
> >*def
> >validate_traffic_stats_st(FT_item,RT_item,forward_path_
> list,return_path_list,nat_type_list,pkt_st)*
> >:
> >    global flag1
> >    flag1 = 1
> >
>         Dangerous usage... Threads should not rely on writing to globals
> unless
> they surround all accesses to the global with a mutual exclusion lock -- OR
> there is only one thread allowed to ever write to the global (a common
> usage is for the main program to set a flag that signals threads to exit,
> and the threads periodically read the flag to see if it has been set).
>
>
>         <SNIP>
> >            log.error('{0} forward path itgen verification
> >failed'.format(nat_type))
> >            flag1 = 0
> >            return flag1
>
>         threads do not "return" data, they just exit
>
>         <SNIP>
> >    return
> >flag1,count_st_Rx,count_st_in_Rx,count_st_out_Rx,count_
> st_Tx,count_st_in_Tx,count_st_out_Tx
> >
>
>         Ditto -- all those items specified in the return are just being
> dumped
> on the floor.
>
>
>         Recommendations: GET RID OF ALL GLOBAL VARIABLES. If you MUST have
> shared global variables, you MUST surround access to the variables with
> mutual exclusion locks -- otherwise you run the risk of counters and lists
> getting out of sync. I'd also suggest compressing sharing down to single
> objects, not half a dozen ad-hoc names. That is:
>
> class St_Record(object):
>         def __init__(self):
>                 self.flag1 = True
>                 self.count_st_Rx = 0
>                 self.count_st_in_Rx = 0
>                 self.count_st_out_Rx = 0
>                 self.whatever = suitableInitValue
>
>                 etc. for any other item needed for "st"
>
>         Do a similar class for the "dy"
>
>
>         Instanciate one instance of each
>
> st_rec = St_Record()
> ...
>
>         And inside the relevant threads simply access as
>
>                 st_rec.count_st_Rx += ...
>
> Assuming these are only used by one thread (and the main program after they
> end) you don't even need to declare them global. Python will find the
> instances at the module level, and one can mutate the instance (ie; the
> contents) without needing to declare global.
>
>
>         "Lockup" of the program implies dead-lock, which usually means race
> conditions for the references to data objects between threads, or improper
> use of mutual exclusion.
> --
>         Wulfraed                 Dennis Lee Bieber         AF6VN
>     wlfraed at ix.netcom.com    HTTP://wlfraed.home.netcom.com/
>
> --
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
>


From iranna.gani28 at gmail.com  Fri Apr 28 05:14:22 2017
From: iranna.gani28 at gmail.com (Iranna Mathapati)
Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2017 14:44:22 +0530
Subject: Thread getting stuck\hang
In-Reply-To: <CAA4=HD7B0Q=FtU74i0TL5P6Q6Mc-riHx3Wasp4nHv6Rfu8p2CA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAA4=HD52XSHSDpHxyjtV05qy9aNM9K=y2eWsRvSWQ1Wa8kBfCw@mail.gmail.com>
 <np34gcdeh07vb34k56hbpdttclelep44sg@4ax.com>
 <CAA4=HD64wr3AHadgRwWBU4tE2RiSr=bhY-FAtDcNviKxRDs4hw@mail.gmail.com>
 <5iu4gchjgfs9btq724km5o05mbhvtajipc@4ax.com>
 <CAA4=HD7B0Q=FtU74i0TL5P6Q6Mc-riHx3Wasp4nHv6Rfu8p2CA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAA4=HD57wjg5wKc=hrg4+dtZkSxEKSjiJGRVozsOhhvPH2m2iA@mail.gmail.com>

Hi Dennis,

Two threads(_st and _dy targets) sharing the same user define function at
the same  time...This is the reason for hang/stuck?

in both the thread ,we are calling same user define function
(itgen_explorer.startTrafficFlows) and greping the values from return
function ,using it in main function.

script was hang after completion of the program only .



On Fri, Apr 28, 2017 at 2:42 PM, Iranna Mathapati <iranna.gani28 at gmail.com>
wrote:

> Hi Dennis,
>
> Two threads(_st and _dy targets) sharing the same user define function at
> the same  time...This is the reason for hang/stuck?
>
> in both the thread ,we are calling same user define function
> (itgen_explorer.startTrafficFlows) and greping the values from return
> function ,using it in main function.
>
>
> On Fri, Apr 28, 2017 at 5:06 AM, Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed at ix.netcom.com>
> wrote:
>
>> On Thu, 27 Apr 2017 22:16:06 +0530, Iranna Mathapati
>> <iranna.gani28 at gmail.com> declaimed the following:
>>
>> >Hi Dennis,
>> >
>> >all function arguments declare as global and pass it to the function.
>> >
>> >All three thread is completed the execution part and after completion of
>> >execution its stuck/hang the programme.
>> >
>> >*def
>> >validate_traffic_stats_st(FT_item,RT_item,forward_path_list
>> ,return_path_list,nat_type_list,pkt_st)*
>> >:
>> >    global flag1
>> >    flag1 = 1
>> >
>>         Dangerous usage... Threads should not rely on writing to globals
>> unless
>> they surround all accesses to the global with a mutual exclusion lock --
>> OR
>> there is only one thread allowed to ever write to the global (a common
>> usage is for the main program to set a flag that signals threads to exit,
>> and the threads periodically read the flag to see if it has been set).
>>
>>
>>         <SNIP>
>> >            log.error('{0} forward path itgen verification
>> >failed'.format(nat_type))
>> >            flag1 = 0
>> >            return flag1
>>
>>         threads do not "return" data, they just exit
>>
>>         <SNIP>
>> >    return
>> >flag1,count_st_Rx,count_st_in_Rx,count_st_out_Rx,count_st_
>> Tx,count_st_in_Tx,count_st_out_Tx
>> >
>>
>>         Ditto -- all those items specified in the return are just being
>> dumped
>> on the floor.
>>
>>
>>         Recommendations: GET RID OF ALL GLOBAL VARIABLES. If you MUST have
>> shared global variables, you MUST surround access to the variables with
>> mutual exclusion locks -- otherwise you run the risk of counters and lists
>> getting out of sync. I'd also suggest compressing sharing down to single
>> objects, not half a dozen ad-hoc names. That is:
>>
>> class St_Record(object):
>>         def __init__(self):
>>                 self.flag1 = True
>>                 self.count_st_Rx = 0
>>                 self.count_st_in_Rx = 0
>>                 self.count_st_out_Rx = 0
>>                 self.whatever = suitableInitValue
>>
>>                 etc. for any other item needed for "st"
>>
>>         Do a similar class for the "dy"
>>
>>
>>         Instanciate one instance of each
>>
>> st_rec = St_Record()
>> ...
>>
>>         And inside the relevant threads simply access as
>>
>>                 st_rec.count_st_Rx += ...
>>
>> Assuming these are only used by one thread (and the main program after
>> they
>> end) you don't even need to declare them global. Python will find the
>> instances at the module level, and one can mutate the instance (ie; the
>> contents) without needing to declare global.
>>
>>
>>         "Lockup" of the program implies dead-lock, which usually means
>> race
>> conditions for the references to data objects between threads, or improper
>> use of mutual exclusion.
>> --
>>         Wulfraed                 Dennis Lee Bieber         AF6VN
>>     wlfraed at ix.netcom.com    HTTP://wlfraed.home.netcom.com/
>>
>> --
>> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
>>
>
>


From kinyip at bnl.gov  Fri Apr 28 08:04:41 2017
From: kinyip at bnl.gov (Yip, Kin)
Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2017 12:04:41 +0000
Subject: "Edit with IDLE" doesn't work any more ?
In-Reply-To: <E5B275CCEBD3D74593A80F27659AC9A85C3977D9@EXMB2.bnl.gov>
References: <E5B275CCEBD3D74593A80F27659AC9A85C3977D9@EXMB2.bnl.gov>
Message-ID: <E5B275CCEBD3D74593A80F27659AC9A85C397CA7@EXMB2.bnl.gov>

Hi,

I'm relatively new with Python3 in Windows 7.  I'm using now Python 3.6.1.

Suddenly right-clicking on a .py file  and choose "Edit with IDLE" just doesn't work.

I've tried to do :

"c:\program files\python36\pythonw.exe"   -m idlelib    mypythoncodes.py


the IDLE editor just doesn't come up.    But if I start the IDLE Shell and then "Open File", the editor is there and
works normally.

I've tried to uninstall "python launcher" and then repair or modify  "python3.6 " in Control Panel/Program and Features.   Nothing works ...

Any help ?  I show you my Windows registry at the bottom of this email.

Kin

PS: My registry :

Windows Registry Editor Version 5.00

[HKEY_CLASSES_ROOT\Python.File\shell]

[HKEY_CLASSES_ROOT\Python.File\shell\editwithidle]
"MUIVerb"="&Edit with IDLE"
"Subcommands"=""

[HKEY_CLASSES_ROOT\Python.File\shell\editwithidle\shell]

[HKEY_CLASSES_ROOT\Python.File\shell\editwithidle\shell\edit36]
"MUIVerb"="Edit with IDLE 3.6 (64-bit)"

[HKEY_CLASSES_ROOT\Python.File\shell\editwithidle\shell\edit36\command]
@="\"C:\\Program Files\\Python36\\pythonw.exe\" -m idlelib \"%L\" %*"

[HKEY_CLASSES_ROOT\Python.File\shell\open]

[HKEY_CLASSES_ROOT\Python.File\shell\open\command]
@="\"C:\\WINDOWS\\py.exe\" \"%L\" %*"

[HKEY_CLASSES_ROOT\Python.File\shell\Run]

[HKEY_CLASSES_ROOT\Python.File\shell\Run\command]
@="\"C:\\Windows\\py.exe\" \"%1\" %*"

[HKEY_CLASSES_ROOT\Python.File\shell\runas]

[HKEY_CLASSES_ROOT\Python.File\shell\runas\command]
@="\"C:\\Windows\\py.exe\" \"%1\" %*"



From eryksun at gmail.com  Fri Apr 28 08:26:40 2017
From: eryksun at gmail.com (eryk sun)
Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2017 12:26:40 +0000
Subject: "Edit with IDLE" doesn't work any more ?
In-Reply-To: <E5B275CCEBD3D74593A80F27659AC9A85C397CA7@EXMB2.bnl.gov>
References: <E5B275CCEBD3D74593A80F27659AC9A85C3977D9@EXMB2.bnl.gov>
 <E5B275CCEBD3D74593A80F27659AC9A85C397CA7@EXMB2.bnl.gov>
Message-ID: <CACL+1avLZ3z7NHF7_EwNYcsN9GWSW6DHb5R8hSiE=ancZswQNg@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Apr 28, 2017 at 12:04 PM, Yip, Kin <kinyip at bnl.gov> wrote:
>
> I've tried to do :
>
> "c:\program files\python36\pythonw.exe"   -m idlelib    mypythoncodes.py

Change this to use "python.exe" and run it from a command prompt. This
way you can see the traceback if an exception is raised.


From kinyip at bnl.gov  Fri Apr 28 08:32:51 2017
From: kinyip at bnl.gov (Yip, Kin)
Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2017 12:32:51 +0000
Subject: "Edit with IDLE" doesn't work any more ?
In-Reply-To: <CACL+1avLZ3z7NHF7_EwNYcsN9GWSW6DHb5R8hSiE=ancZswQNg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <E5B275CCEBD3D74593A80F27659AC9A85C3977D9@EXMB2.bnl.gov>
 <E5B275CCEBD3D74593A80F27659AC9A85C397CA7@EXMB2.bnl.gov>
 <CACL+1avLZ3z7NHF7_EwNYcsN9GWSW6DHb5R8hSiE=ancZswQNg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <E5B275CCEBD3D74593A80F27659AC9A85C397DBB@EXMB2.bnl.gov>

Hi Eryk,

If I do:

"c:\Program Files\Python36\python.exe"  -m idlelib beersong.py

I see the following :

=======================
Traceback (most recent call last):
  File "c:\Program Files\Python36\lib\idlelib\pyshell.py", line 4, in <module>
    from tkinter import *
  File "C:\Users\kinyip\Desktop\Python Codes\tkinter.py", line 1, in <module>
    from turtle import *
  File "c:\Program Files\Python36\lib\turtle.py", line 116, in <module>
    from tkinter import simpledialog
ImportError: cannot import name 'simpledialog'

During handling of the above exception, another exception occurred:

Traceback (most recent call last):
  File "c:\Program Files\Python36\lib\runpy.py", line 193, in _run_module_as_main
    "__main__", mod_spec)
  File "c:\Program Files\Python36\lib\runpy.py", line 85, in _run_code
    exec(code, run_globals)
  File "c:\Program Files\Python36\lib\idlelib\__main__.py", line 6, in <module>
    import idlelib.pyshell
  File "c:\Program Files\Python36\lib\idlelib\pyshell.py", line 7, in <module>
    "Your Python may not be configured for Tk. **", file=sys.__stderr__)
NameError: name 'sys' is not defined
========================================================================================


Any suggestion ?

Kin

-----Original Message-----
From: eryk sun [mailto:eryksun at gmail.com] 
Sent: Friday, April 28, 2017 8:27 AM
To: python-list at python.org
Cc: Yip, Kin <kinyip at bnl.gov>
Subject: Re: "Edit with IDLE" doesn't work any more ?

On Fri, Apr 28, 2017 at 12:04 PM, Yip, Kin <kinyip at bnl.gov> wrote:
>
> I've tried to do :
>
> "c:\program files\python36\pythonw.exe"   -m idlelib    mypythoncodes.py

Change this to use "python.exe" and run it from a command prompt. This way you can see the traceback if an exception is raised.

From kinyip at bnl.gov  Fri Apr 28 08:47:58 2017
From: kinyip at bnl.gov (Yip, Kin)
Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2017 12:47:58 +0000
Subject: "Edit with IDLE" doesn't work any more ?
In-Reply-To: <E5B275CCEBD3D74593A80F27659AC9A85C397DBB@EXMB2.bnl.gov>
References: <E5B275CCEBD3D74593A80F27659AC9A85C3977D9@EXMB2.bnl.gov>
 <E5B275CCEBD3D74593A80F27659AC9A85C397CA7@EXMB2.bnl.gov>
 <CACL+1avLZ3z7NHF7_EwNYcsN9GWSW6DHb5R8hSiE=ancZswQNg@mail.gmail.com>
 <E5B275CCEBD3D74593A80F27659AC9A85C397DBB@EXMB2.bnl.gov>
Message-ID: <E5B275CCEBD3D74593A80F27659AC9A85C397E5D@EXMB2.bnl.gov>

Hi,

I've finally known why ....  By chance, I went to the installation directory : C:\Program Files\Python36\Lib\tkinter   

to check on files.  I did "EDIT with IDLE" on any files there.  It all works !   Then, I went back to my directory
where I put all my personal .py codes.  It didn't work there.   Finally, I've guessed and realized/tested that
"EDIT with IDLE"  doesn't work in my python directory because I have just recently made a file called :

tkinter.py


Somehow, this stops "EDIT with IDLE" from working if I try to "EDIT with IDLE" on any files in that directory/folder.

After I rename it to mytkinter.py , things work normally now ! 

Weird !    Don't know exactly why ...?!   

Sorry to bother you guys ...

Kin

-----Original Message-----
From: Python-list [mailto:python-list-bounces+kinyip=bnl.gov at python.org] On Behalf Of Yip, Kin
Sent: Friday, April 28, 2017 8:33 AM
To: eryk sun <eryksun at gmail.com>; python-list at python.org
Subject: RE: "Edit with IDLE" doesn't work any more ?

Hi Eryk,

If I do:

"c:\Program Files\Python36\python.exe"  -m idlelib beersong.py

I see the following :

=======================
Traceback (most recent call last):
  File "c:\Program Files\Python36\lib\idlelib\pyshell.py", line 4, in <module>
    from tkinter import *
  File "C:\Users\kinyip\Desktop\Python Codes\tkinter.py", line 1, in <module>
    from turtle import *
  File "c:\Program Files\Python36\lib\turtle.py", line 116, in <module>
    from tkinter import simpledialog
ImportError: cannot import name 'simpledialog'

During handling of the above exception, another exception occurred:

Traceback (most recent call last):
  File "c:\Program Files\Python36\lib\runpy.py", line 193, in _run_module_as_main
    "__main__", mod_spec)
  File "c:\Program Files\Python36\lib\runpy.py", line 85, in _run_code
    exec(code, run_globals)
  File "c:\Program Files\Python36\lib\idlelib\__main__.py", line 6, in <module>
    import idlelib.pyshell
  File "c:\Program Files\Python36\lib\idlelib\pyshell.py", line 7, in <module>
    "Your Python may not be configured for Tk. **", file=sys.__stderr__)
NameError: name 'sys' is not defined
========================================================================================


Any suggestion ?

Kin

-----Original Message-----
From: eryk sun [mailto:eryksun at gmail.com] 
Sent: Friday, April 28, 2017 8:27 AM
To: python-list at python.org
Cc: Yip, Kin <kinyip at bnl.gov>
Subject: Re: "Edit with IDLE" doesn't work any more ?

On Fri, Apr 28, 2017 at 12:04 PM, Yip, Kin <kinyip at bnl.gov> wrote:
>
> I've tried to do :
>
> "c:\program files\python36\pythonw.exe"   -m idlelib    mypythoncodes.py

Change this to use "python.exe" and run it from a command prompt. This way you can see the traceback if an exception is raised.
-- 
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list


From __peter__ at web.de  Fri Apr 28 08:48:05 2017
From: __peter__ at web.de (Peter Otten)
Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2017 14:48:05 +0200
Subject: "Edit with IDLE" doesn't work any more ?
References: <E5B275CCEBD3D74593A80F27659AC9A85C3977D9@EXMB2.bnl.gov>
 <E5B275CCEBD3D74593A80F27659AC9A85C397CA7@EXMB2.bnl.gov>
Message-ID: <odvdm0$gv8$1@blaine.gmane.org>

Yip, Kin wrote:

> I'm relatively new with Python3 in Windows 7.  I'm using now Python 3.6.1.
> 
> Suddenly right-clicking on a .py file  and choose "Edit with IDLE" just
> doesn't work.
> 
> I've tried to do :
> 
> "c:\program files\python36\pythonw.exe"   -m idlelib    mypythoncodes.py
> 
> 
> the IDLE editor just doesn't come up.    But if I start the IDLE Shell and
> then "Open File", the editor is there and works normally.

IDLE shares its import mechanism with every other Python script. 

This results in the nasty quirk that if you have other .py files in the same 
directory as mypythoncodes.py, and one of these files has the same name as 
one of the modules in Python's standard library IDLE will try to run with 
your module rather than the one it actually needs. Common candidates are 
code.py or string.py, but there are many more. 

Once you rename or delete those files IDLE should start working again.

PS: Judging from the traceback in your answer to eryk sun in your case the 
offending module may be called tkinter.py





From breamoreboy at gmail.com  Fri Apr 28 08:57:33 2017
From: breamoreboy at gmail.com (breamoreboy at gmail.com)
Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2017 05:57:33 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: py-backwards - Python to python compiler that allows you to use
 Python 3.6 features in older versions.
Message-ID: <f02b4fa9-e951-4876-83c4-fd166e3cb27d@googlegroups.com>

Hi folks, I've no idea if you could be interested in this beastie https://github.com/nvbn/py-backwards but if you don't know about it, you can't be :)

Kindest regards.

Mark Lawrence.


From eryksun at gmail.com  Fri Apr 28 09:01:17 2017
From: eryksun at gmail.com (eryk sun)
Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2017 13:01:17 +0000
Subject: "Edit with IDLE" doesn't work any more ?
In-Reply-To: <E5B275CCEBD3D74593A80F27659AC9A85C397DBB@EXMB2.bnl.gov>
References: <E5B275CCEBD3D74593A80F27659AC9A85C3977D9@EXMB2.bnl.gov>
 <E5B275CCEBD3D74593A80F27659AC9A85C397CA7@EXMB2.bnl.gov>
 <CACL+1avLZ3z7NHF7_EwNYcsN9GWSW6DHb5R8hSiE=ancZswQNg@mail.gmail.com>
 <E5B275CCEBD3D74593A80F27659AC9A85C397DBB@EXMB2.bnl.gov>
Message-ID: <CACL+1as84uiOL6vGuhSr0P4EKH-QgtP2vO5_ADX=Y1bHw+PPVg@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Apr 28, 2017 at 12:32 PM, Yip, Kin <kinyip at bnl.gov> wrote:
> Traceback (most recent call last):
>   File "c:\Program Files\Python36\lib\idlelib\pyshell.py", line 4, in <module>
>     from tkinter import *
>   File "C:\Users\kinyip\Desktop\Python Codes\tkinter.py", line 1, in <module>
>     from turtle import *
>   File "c:\Program Files\Python36\lib\turtle.py", line 116, in <module>
>     from tkinter import simpledialog
> ImportError: cannot import name 'simpledialog'

The traceback tells you what you need to know. See how importing
tkinter used your "Python Codes\tkinter.py".

The first part of this problem is that "Edit with IDLE" is executed as
`pythonw.exe -m idlelib "%L" %*`. The -m command-line option adds the
working directory (not the script directory) to the head of sys.path.
The second part is that Explorer starts the process with the working
directory set to the parent directory of the "%L" target file. The 3rd
part is that you have a file in that directory named tkinter.py.
Overall this is a bad experience for beginners, and I know Terry Reedy
is working to improve this.


From __peter__ at web.de  Fri Apr 28 09:23:17 2017
From: __peter__ at web.de (Peter Otten)
Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2017 15:23:17 +0200
Subject: "Edit with IDLE" doesn't work any more ?
References: <E5B275CCEBD3D74593A80F27659AC9A85C3977D9@EXMB2.bnl.gov>
 <E5B275CCEBD3D74593A80F27659AC9A85C397CA7@EXMB2.bnl.gov>
 <odvdm0$gv8$1@blaine.gmane.org>
 <mailman.489.1493383696.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <modules-20170428135741@ram.dialup.fu-berlin.de>
Message-ID: <odvfo0$dg1$1@blaine.gmane.org>

Stefan Ram wrote:

> Peter Otten <__peter__ at web.de> writes:
>>one of the modules in Python's standard library IDLE will try to run with
>>your module rather than the one it actually needs. Common candidates are
>>code.py or string.py, but there are many more.
> 
>   I know this from Java:
> 
>   When you write a program
> 
> ... main( final String[] args ) ...
> 
>   and then create a file ?String.class? in the program's
>   directory, the program usually will not work anymore.
> 
>   However, in Java one can use an absolute path as in,
> 
> ... main( final java.lang.String[] args ) ...
> 
>   , in which case the program will still work in the
>   presence of such a ?String.class? file.
> 
>   I wonder whether Python also might have such a kind
>   of robust "absolute addressing" of a module.

While I would welcome such a "reverse netloc" scheme or at least a "std" 
toplevel package that guarantees imports from the standard library I fear 
the pain is not yet big enough ;)




From kinyip at bnl.gov  Fri Apr 28 09:25:40 2017
From: kinyip at bnl.gov (Yip, Kin)
Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2017 13:25:40 +0000
Subject: "Edit with IDLE" doesn't work any more ?
In-Reply-To: <CACL+1as84uiOL6vGuhSr0P4EKH-QgtP2vO5_ADX=Y1bHw+PPVg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <E5B275CCEBD3D74593A80F27659AC9A85C3977D9@EXMB2.bnl.gov>
 <E5B275CCEBD3D74593A80F27659AC9A85C397CA7@EXMB2.bnl.gov>
 <CACL+1avLZ3z7NHF7_EwNYcsN9GWSW6DHb5R8hSiE=ancZswQNg@mail.gmail.com>
 <E5B275CCEBD3D74593A80F27659AC9A85C397DBB@EXMB2.bnl.gov>
 <CACL+1as84uiOL6vGuhSr0P4EKH-QgtP2vO5_ADX=Y1bHw+PPVg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <E5B275CCEBD3D74593A80F27659AC9A85C398000@EXMB2.bnl.gov>

Hi Erky and Peter,

Thanks for the explanations.   Next time, I'd try to treat the "traceback" more seriously :-)
I've learnt the difference between python.exe and python.exe   and   to be more carefully with my code names :-(

Kin

-----Original Message-----
From: eryk sun [mailto:eryksun at gmail.com] 
Sent: Friday, April 28, 2017 9:01 AM
To: python-list at python.org
Cc: Yip, Kin <kinyip at bnl.gov>
Subject: Re: "Edit with IDLE" doesn't work any more ?

On Fri, Apr 28, 2017 at 12:32 PM, Yip, Kin <kinyip at bnl.gov> wrote:
> Traceback (most recent call last):
>   File "c:\Program Files\Python36\lib\idlelib\pyshell.py", line 4, in <module>
>     from tkinter import *
>   File "C:\Users\kinyip\Desktop\Python Codes\tkinter.py", line 1, in <module>
>     from turtle import *
>   File "c:\Program Files\Python36\lib\turtle.py", line 116, in <module>
>     from tkinter import simpledialog
> ImportError: cannot import name 'simpledialog'

The traceback tells you what you need to know. See how importing tkinter used your "Python Codes\tkinter.py".

The first part of this problem is that "Edit with IDLE" is executed as `pythonw.exe -m idlelib "%L" %*`. The -m command-line option adds the working directory (not the script directory) to the head of sys.path.
The second part is that Explorer starts the process with the working directory set to the parent directory of the "%L" target file. The 3rd part is that you have a file in that directory named tkinter.py.
Overall this is a bad experience for beginners, and I know Terry Reedy is working to improve this.

From walters.justin01 at gmail.com  Fri Apr 28 10:20:40 2017
From: walters.justin01 at gmail.com (justin walters)
Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2017 07:20:40 -0700
Subject: Fwd: Bigotry (you win, I give up)
In-Reply-To: <CAO1D73FsEVwipa_uRoa7u0gJ7t2uuEwnhLqaXzmDei+VCeNR3Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <682806876.3732405.1492619022353.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
 <682806876.3732405.1492619022353@mail.yahoo.com>
 <mailman.301.1492620244.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <25b85a23-e9cd-4767-a240-5216a0704a11@googlegroups.com>
 <1963549d-551c-480a-89fe-0dc82a0fe924@googlegroups.com>
 <3ddf782a-7bb5-4b24-8fce-7f95749beb0f@googlegroups.com>
 <CAO1D73FsEVwipa_uRoa7u0gJ7t2uuEwnhLqaXzmDei+VCeNR3Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAO1D73EO0xbHZ8nH4AXcezAR=p8tZdo2BMF3NYhnKMWXY=Knyg@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Apr 27, 2017 at 9:52 PM, Mike Reveile <wizardinthewoods at gmail.com>
wrote:

> I can measure a Pineapple... by weight, volume, color, taste, smell,
> ripeness... but none of these numbers are the pineapple. They only help me
> relate to the pineapple. In this way Math itself (and the entire realm of
> computer science) is unreal.



I've always felt that math is simply another language like English or
Spanish. Language is an abstraction
that humans use to convey meaning to other humans. We agreed on common
labels and sounds
to represent things, actions, and ideas. Math is the same. The laws of
physics obviously exist in some sense
because we can observe their effects. We represent these effects with
numbers and symbols. The number 1
could just as well be the number gobbledeegorp. It doesn't matter. The
number one simply represents a single entity
of anything at all. Of course this is all from the narrow field of human
perception. What humans perceive
to be real could, in all possibility, be completely made up in our own
minds. I don't want to get to far into
the "perception is reality" side of things although.


From allenwade1964 at gmail.com  Fri Apr 28 13:01:25 2017
From: allenwade1964 at gmail.com (allen wade)
Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2017 13:01:25 -0400
Subject: portable python
Message-ID: <CALknfqT8pbyp_yXHV9rDgdC+y6ZXx2MMU_0o=2=4jchMX7pqaQ@mail.gmail.com>

is there a way to install python on a thumb drive that does not require an
administrator's password?  I have to use public computers and store all my
applications to the thumb drive, using the Portable Apps Platform to manage
the applications.


From tjreedy at udel.edu  Fri Apr 28 15:19:54 2017
From: tjreedy at udel.edu (Terry Reedy)
Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2017 15:19:54 -0400
Subject: "Edit with IDLE" doesn't work any more ?
In-Reply-To: <CACL+1as84uiOL6vGuhSr0P4EKH-QgtP2vO5_ADX=Y1bHw+PPVg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <E5B275CCEBD3D74593A80F27659AC9A85C3977D9@EXMB2.bnl.gov>
 <E5B275CCEBD3D74593A80F27659AC9A85C397CA7@EXMB2.bnl.gov>
 <CACL+1avLZ3z7NHF7_EwNYcsN9GWSW6DHb5R8hSiE=ancZswQNg@mail.gmail.com>
 <E5B275CCEBD3D74593A80F27659AC9A85C397DBB@EXMB2.bnl.gov>
 <CACL+1as84uiOL6vGuhSr0P4EKH-QgtP2vO5_ADX=Y1bHw+PPVg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <oe04ko$4ip$1@blaine.gmane.org>

On 4/28/2017 9:01 AM, eryk sun wrote:
> On Fri, Apr 28, 2017 at 12:32 PM, Yip, Kin <kinyip at bnl.gov> wrote:
>> Traceback (most recent call last):
>>    File "c:\Program Files\Python36\lib\idlelib\pyshell.py", line 4, in <module>
>>      from tkinter import *
>>    File "C:\Users\kinyip\Desktop\Python Codes\tkinter.py", line 1, in <module>
>>      from turtle import *
>>    File "c:\Program Files\Python36\lib\turtle.py", line 116, in <module>
>>      from tkinter import simpledialog
>> ImportError: cannot import name 'simpledialog'
> 
> The traceback tells you what you need to know. See how importing
> tkinter used your "Python Codes\tkinter.py".
> 
> The first part of this problem is that "Edit with IDLE" is executed as
> `pythonw.exe -m idlelib "%L" %*`. The -m command-line option adds the
> working directory (not the script directory) to the head of sys.path.
> The second part is that Explorer starts the process with the working
> directory set to the parent directory of the "%L" target file. The 3rd
> part is that you have a file in that directory named tkinter.py.
> Overall this is a bad experience for beginners, and I know Terry Reedy
> is working to improve this.

There is an issue to fix this.
https://bugs.python.org/issue26143
I added a note mentioning this report.

-- 
Terry Jan Reedy



From tjreedy at udel.edu  Fri Apr 28 15:25:08 2017
From: tjreedy at udel.edu (Terry Reedy)
Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2017 15:25:08 -0400
Subject: portable python
In-Reply-To: <CALknfqT8pbyp_yXHV9rDgdC+y6ZXx2MMU_0o=2=4jchMX7pqaQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CALknfqT8pbyp_yXHV9rDgdC+y6ZXx2MMU_0o=2=4jchMX7pqaQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <oe04ui$pt8$1@blaine.gmane.org>

On 4/28/2017 1:01 PM, allen wade wrote:
> is there a way to install python on a thumb drive

Check http://portablepython.com/

  that does not require an
> administrator's password?  I have to use public computers and store all my
> applications to the thumb drive, using the Portable Apps Platform to manage
> the applications.

For Windows, I would look at https://winpython.github.io/

-- 
Terry Jan Reedy



From iranna.gani28 at gmail.com  Sat Apr 29 12:01:21 2017
From: iranna.gani28 at gmail.com (Iranna Mathapati)
Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2017 21:31:21 +0530
Subject: Thread getting stuck\hang
In-Reply-To: <46d6gc5l8vkhusrubl5l6rfr4g44bdp4fh@4ax.com>
References: <CAA4=HD52XSHSDpHxyjtV05qy9aNM9K=y2eWsRvSWQ1Wa8kBfCw@mail.gmail.com>
 <np34gcdeh07vb34k56hbpdttclelep44sg@4ax.com>
 <CAA4=HD64wr3AHadgRwWBU4tE2RiSr=bhY-FAtDcNviKxRDs4hw@mail.gmail.com>
 <5iu4gchjgfs9btq724km5o05mbhvtajipc@4ax.com>
 <CAA4=HD7B0Q=FtU74i0TL5P6Q6Mc-riHx3Wasp4nHv6Rfu8p2CA@mail.gmail.com>
 <46d6gc5l8vkhusrubl5l6rfr4g44bdp4fh@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <CAA4=HD6Y-Xpd1onZL5MiPTQE0ui1_DwOiDJgB=nGe-bR0kt_hg@mail.gmail.com>

Hi Dennis,

My requirement is like,i want to send the static and dynamic traffic
together.while traffic sending i want to delete some config from device.

st and dy both the targets want  to be  run at the same time.



On Fri, Apr 28, 2017 at 6:10 PM, Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed at ix.netcom.com>
wrote:

> On Fri, 28 Apr 2017 14:42:33 +0530, Iranna Mathapati
> <iranna.gani28 at gmail.com> declaimed the following:
>
> >Hi Dennis,
> >
> >Two threads(_st and _dy targets) sharing the same user define function at
> >the same  time...This is the reason for hang/stuck?
> >
> >in both the thread ,we are calling same user define function
> >(itgen_explorer.startTrafficFlows) and greping the values from return
> >function ,using it in main function.
> >
>
>         While the threads will have their own stacks, meaning function
> local
> data should be separate, if that common function is written anything like
> the st/dy threads (that is, full of "global" declarations) anything could
> be happening.
>
>
>         Given that your original sample main logic basically just started
> three
> threads and almost immediately waits for them to complete by using .join(),
> I have to wonder just why you are using threads at all.
>
>         Due to the GIL, even on a multi-core processor, only one thread can
> actually do anything at a time (threads work great when they spend most of
> their time waiting for I/O operations to complete, but are terrible if
> trying to do heavy number crunching). If you don't have lots of blocking
> I/O, the thread switching will actually make using threads take more time
> then just calling the functions one after the other.
>
>         From your original post, what happens if you replace:
>
> >sniffer1 =
> >threading.Thread(target=validate_traffic_stats_dy,
> args=(FT_item_dy,RT_item_dy,forward_path_list_dy,return_
> path_list_dy,nat_type_list_dy,pkt_dy_1,))
> >sniffer2 =
> >threading.Thread(target=validate_traffic_stats_st,
> args=(FT_item_st,RT_item_st,forward_path_list_st,return_
> path_list_st,nat_type_list_st,pkt_st,))
> >sniffer1.start()
> >sniffer2.start()
> >sniffer3 = threading.Thread(target=delete_new_dynamic_nat_conf)
> >sniffer3.start()
> >sniffer1.join()
> >sniffer2.join()
> >sniffer3.join()
>
> with just the inline calls:
>
> validate_traffic_stats_dy(the arg list)
> validate_traffic_stats_st(its arg list)
> delete_new_dynamic_nat_conf()
>
>         That should run them in sequence, with no chance for conflicts
> between
> shared state.
>
>         If you still get erratic hanging, you have a logic problem
> somewhere
> else in the program other than a shared state deadlock.
> --
>         Wulfraed                 Dennis Lee Bieber         AF6VN
>     wlfraed at ix.netcom.com    HTTP://wlfraed.home.netcom.com/
>
> --
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
>


From shashwatup9k at gmail.com  Sat Apr 29 13:06:12 2017
From: shashwatup9k at gmail.com (marsh)
Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2017 10:06:12 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Convert text file data into RDF format through the Python
Message-ID: <b4a926ea-3ed4-439c-a446-a5067e014160@googlegroups.com>

Hi, 

I would like to ask how can I convert text file data into RDF fromat. data look like this: 
# sent_id = weblog-juancole.com_juancole_20051126063000_ENG_20051126_063000-0001
# text = Al-Zaman : American forces killed Shaikh Abdullah al-Ani, the preacher at the mosque in the town of Qaim, near the Syrian border.
1	Al	Al	PROPN	NNP	Number=Sing	0	root	_	SpaceAfter=No
2	-	-	PUNCT	HYPH	_	1	punct	_	SpaceAfter=No
3	Zaman	Zaman	PROPN	NNP	Number=Sing	1	flat	_	_
4	:	:	PUNCT	:	_	1	punct	_	_
5	American	american	ADJ	JJ	Degree=Pos	6	amod	_	_

please suggest me


From python.list at tim.thechases.com  Sat Apr 29 14:45:58 2017
From: python.list at tim.thechases.com (Tim Chase)
Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2017 13:45:58 -0500
Subject: tempname.mktemp functionality deprecation
Message-ID: <20170429134558.295ef850@bigbox.christie.dr>

Working on some deduplication code, I want do my my best at
performing an atomic re-hard-linking atop an existing file, akin to
"ln -f source.txt dest.txt"

However, when I issue

  os.link("source.txt", "dest.txt")

it fails with an OSError (EEXISTS).  This isn't surprising as it's
documented.  Unfortunately, os.link doesn't support something like

  os.link("source.txt", "dest.txt", force=True)

However, I don't want to

  os.unlink("dest.txt")
  os.link("source.txt", "dest.txt")

in the event the power goes out between the unlink() and the link(),
leaving me in a state where dest.txt is deleted but the link hasn't
yet happened.

So my plan was to do something like

  temp_name = tempfile.mktemp(dir=DIRECTORY_CONTAINING_SOURCE_TXT)
  os.link("source.txt", temp_name)
  try:
    os.rename(temp_name, "dest.txt") # docs guarantee this is atomic
  except OSError:
    os.unlink(temp_name)

There's still the potential leakage if a crash occurs, but I'd rather
have an extra hard-link floating around than lose an original
file-name.

Unfortunately, tempfile.mktemp() is described as deprecated
since 2.3 (though appears to still exist in the 3.4.2 that is the
default Py3 on Debian Stable). While the deprecation notice says
"In version 2.3 of Python, this module was overhauled for enhanced
security. It now provides three new functions, NamedTemporaryFile(),
mkstemp(), and mkdtemp(), which should eliminate all remaining need
to use the insecure mktemp() function", as best I can tell, all of
the other functions/objects in the tempfile module return a file
object, not a string suitable for passing to link().

So which route should I pursue?

- go ahead and use tempfile.mktemp() ignoring the deprecation?

- use a GUID-named temp-file instead for less chance of collision?

- I happen to already have a hash of the file contents, so use
  the .hexdigest() string as the temp-file name?

- some other solution I've missed?


Thanks,

-tkc






From python at lucidity.plus.com  Sat Apr 29 16:19:43 2017
From: python at lucidity.plus.com (Erik)
Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2017 21:19:43 +0100
Subject: Inconsistency between dict() and collections.OrderedDict() methods.
Message-ID: <dcdc96e5-013a-1a01-7344-4f7fb4da9851@lucidity.plus.com>

I have a subclass of dict that enforces which keys are allowed to be set 
and only allows each key to be set at most once:

class StrictDict(dict):
   def __init__(self, validkeys, *args, **kwargs):
     self.validkeys = validkeys
     super(StrictDict, self).__init__(*args, **kwargs)

   def __setitem__(self, key, value):
     if key not in self.validkeys:
       raise KeyError("'%s' is not a valid key" % key)

     if key in self.keys():
       raise KeyError("'%s' is already set" % key)

     super(StrictDict, self).__setitem__(key, value)

This works fine in the general case:

/tmp$ ~/sw/Python-3.6.1/python
Python 3.6.1 (heads/master:7bcbcb9, Apr 21 2017, 01:52:28)
[GCC 5.4.0 20160609] on linux
Type "help", "copyright", "credits" or "license" for more information.
 >>> from strictdict import *
 >>> d = StrictDict(('foo', 'bar'))
 >>> d['foo'] = 1
 >>> d['foo'] = 1
Traceback (most recent call last):
   File "<stdin>", line 1, in <module>
   File "/tmp/strictdict.py", line 11, in __setitem__
     raise KeyError("'%s' is already set" % key)
KeyError: "'foo' is already set"
 >>> d['baz'] = 1
Traceback (most recent call last):
   File "<stdin>", line 1, in <module>
   File "/tmp/strictdict.py", line 8, in __setitem__
     raise KeyError("'%s' is not a valid key" % key)
KeyError: "'baz' is not a valid key"
 >>> d
{'foo': 1}

However, when I call other methods which set items in the dictionary, I 
do not get errors for invalid or duplicate keys (__setitem__ is not called):

/tmp$ ~/sw/Python-3.6.1/python
Python 3.6.1 (heads/master:7bcbcb9, Apr 21 2017, 01:52:28)
[GCC 5.4.0 20160609] on linux
Type "help", "copyright", "credits" or "license" for more information.
 >>> from strictdict import *
 >>> d = StrictDict(('foo', 'bar'), baz=1)
 >>> d
{'baz': 1}
 >>> d.update({'spam': 1})
 >>> d
{'baz': 1, 'spam': 1}

It seems a little onerous that I have to put the key checks in several 
places and implement each of those APIs manually again (and keep on top 
of that if dict() grows some new methods that involve setting items). Is 
there a compelling reason why the dict module doesn't call a custom 
__setitem__ each time an item needs to be set? Performance is 
undoubtably a concern with something a fundamental as dicts, but what 
I'm suggesting could be done fairly efficiently (with a single "is the 
self object a subclass which overrides __setitem__" test followed by 
running the existing code or a slower version which calls __setitem__).

Anyway, related to but separate from that, as the subject of this 
message states it turns out that collections.OrderedDict() *does* do 
what I would expect:

from collections import OrderedDict
class OrderedStrictDict(OrderedDict):
   def __init__(self, validkeys, *args, **kwargs):
     self.validkeys = validkeys
     super(OrderedStrictDict, self).__init__(*args, **kwargs)

   def __setitem__(self, key, value):
     if key not in self.validkeys:
       raise KeyError("'%s' is not a valid key" % key)

     if key in self.keys():
       raise KeyError("'%s' is already set" % key)

     super(OrderedStrictDict, self).__setitem__(key, value)

/tmp$ ~/sw/Python-3.6.1/python
Python 3.6.1 (heads/master:7bcbcb9, Apr 21 2017, 01:52:28)
[GCC 5.4.0 20160609] on linux
Type "help", "copyright", "credits" or "license" for more information.
 >>> from strictdict import *
 >>> d = OrderedStrictDict(('foo', 'bar'), baz=1)
Traceback (most recent call last):
   File "<stdin>", line 1, in <module>
   File "/tmp/strictdict.py", line 19, in __init__
     super(OrderedStrictDict, self).__init__(*args, **kwargs)
   File "/tmp/strictdict.py", line 23, in __setitem__
     raise KeyError("'%s' is not a valid key" % key)
KeyError: "'baz' is not a valid key"
 >>> d = OrderedStrictDict(('foo', 'bar'))
 >>> d.update({'baz': 1})
Traceback (most recent call last):
   File "<stdin>", line 1, in <module>
   File "/tmp/strictdict.py", line 23, in __setitem__
     raise KeyError("'%s' is not a valid key" % key)
KeyError: "'baz' is not a valid key"


The documentation for OrderedDict says: "Return an instance of a dict 
subclass, supporting the usual dict methods. An OrderedDict is a dict 
that remembers the order that keys were first inserted. If a new entry 
overwrites an existing entry, the original insertion position is left 
unchanged. Deleting an entry and reinserting it will move it to the end."

The strong implication there is that the class behaves exactly like a 
dict apart from the ordering, but that's not true.

E.


From ned at nedbatchelder.com  Sat Apr 29 18:40:29 2017
From: ned at nedbatchelder.com (Ned Batchelder)
Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2017 15:40:29 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Inconsistency between dict() and collections.OrderedDict()
 methods.
In-Reply-To: <mailman.500.1493497193.2951.python-list@python.org>
References: <dcdc96e5-013a-1a01-7344-4f7fb4da9851@lucidity.plus.com>
 <mailman.500.1493497193.2951.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <2326677e-65df-46ef-8f53-361685a7ea9c@googlegroups.com>

On Saturday, April 29, 2017 at 4:20:06 PM UTC-4, Erik wrote: 
> It seems a little onerous that I have to put the key checks in several 
> places and implement each of those APIs manually again (and keep on top 
> of that if dict() grows some new methods that involve setting items). Is 
> there a compelling reason why the dict module doesn't call a custom 
> __setitem__ each time an item needs to be set? Performance is 
> undoubtably a concern with something a fundamental as dicts...

Performance is the reason.  For creating your own class that acts like
a dict, you should derive from collections.abc.MutableMapping, which
only requires implementing __getitem__, __setitem__, __delitem__,
__iter__, and __len__.

--Ned.


From python at lucidity.plus.com  Sat Apr 29 19:22:58 2017
From: python at lucidity.plus.com (Erik)
Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2017 00:22:58 +0100
Subject: Inconsistency between dict() and collections.OrderedDict()
 methods.
In-Reply-To: <2326677e-65df-46ef-8f53-361685a7ea9c@googlegroups.com>
References: <dcdc96e5-013a-1a01-7344-4f7fb4da9851@lucidity.plus.com>
 <mailman.500.1493497193.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <2326677e-65df-46ef-8f53-361685a7ea9c@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <8f139c11-2a11-d112-30b3-80095b5cacad@lucidity.plus.com>

On 29/04/17 23:40, Ned Batchelder wrote:
> For creating your own class that acts like
> a dict, you should derive from collections.abc.MutableMapping, which
> only requires implementing __getitem__, __setitem__, __delitem__,
> __iter__, and __len__.

Or, I could derive from collections.OrderedDict and just implement the 
two methods that I actually want to change the behavior of (did you read 
the rest of my post?) ;)

That's one of the points I'm trying to make - why is it harder than it 
needs to be to do something this simple?

The other is that the documentation of collections.OrderedDict seems to 
be lacking (it is talking in terms of being a "dict" subclass, but it 
actually isn't one).

E.


From jsf80238 at gmail.com  Sat Apr 29 19:41:30 2017
From: jsf80238 at gmail.com (Jason Friedman)
Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2017 17:41:30 -0600
Subject: Not understanding itertools.dropwhile()
Message-ID: <CANy1k1iMit+QuzjMdQmOtTeKvJ-2z0WCZ1RKqk_nqOjyhYsBSA@mail.gmail.com>

<---- start code ---->

import itertools

data = """Line1
Line2

Line4
Line5"""

def test_to_start(s):
    return "2" in s

for line in itertools.dropwhile(test_to_start, data.splitlines()):
    print(line)

<---- end code ---->

I expect:

$ python3 dropwhile.py
Line2

Line4
Line5


I get:

$ python3 dropwhile.py
Line1
Line2

Line4
Line5


Please explain.


From greg.ewing at canterbury.ac.nz  Sat Apr 29 19:52:35 2017
From: greg.ewing at canterbury.ac.nz (Gregory Ewing)
Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2017 11:52:35 +1200
Subject: Inconsistency between dict() and collections.OrderedDict()  
 methods.
In-Reply-To: <mailman.501.1493508188.2951.python-list@python.org>
References: <dcdc96e5-013a-1a01-7344-4f7fb4da9851@lucidity.plus.com>
 <mailman.500.1493497193.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <2326677e-65df-46ef-8f53-361685a7ea9c@googlegroups.com>
 <8f139c11-2a11-d112-30b3-80095b5cacad@lucidity.plus.com>
 <mailman.501.1493508188.2951.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <emkna6FhgmcU1@mid.individual.net>

Erik wrote:
> That's one of the points I'm trying to make - why is it harder than it 
> needs to be to do something this simple?

The built-in dict class is used internally to implement
various namespaces (module, class, instance, etc.), so it
needs to be extremely efficient. Funnelling all updates
through a single method would be unacceptable.

This does make it harder to override behaviour in a
subclass, but that's always a tricky proposition that
relies on knowing a lot about implementation details of
the class. If a particular method isn't documented as
being a hook intended for overriding, you can't make
any assumptions.

> The other is that the documentation of collections.OrderedDict seems to 
> be lacking (it is talking in terms of being a "dict" subclass, but it 
> actually isn't one).

The docs probably mean to say that it has the same interface
as a dict, not that it's necessarily implemented as a
subclass of dict. Nevertheless, it could actually be a
dict subclass that overrides all the necessary methods.
Either way, its behaviour under subclassing is not spelled
out.

-- 
Greg


From breamoreboy at gmail.com  Sat Apr 29 20:17:56 2017
From: breamoreboy at gmail.com (breamoreboy at gmail.com)
Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2017 17:17:56 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Inconsistency between dict() and collections.OrderedDict()
 methods.
In-Reply-To: <mailman.501.1493508188.2951.python-list@python.org>
References: <dcdc96e5-013a-1a01-7344-4f7fb4da9851@lucidity.plus.com>
 <mailman.500.1493497193.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <2326677e-65df-46ef-8f53-361685a7ea9c@googlegroups.com>
 <8f139c11-2a11-d112-30b3-80095b5cacad@lucidity.plus.com>
 <mailman.501.1493508188.2951.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <844bd98c-f9cd-41e8-909f-78510e470425@googlegroups.com>

On Sunday, April 30, 2017 at 12:23:19 AM UTC+1, Erik wrote:
> On 29/04/17 23:40, Ned Batchelder wrote:
> > For creating your own class that acts like
> > a dict, you should derive from collections.abc.MutableMapping, which
> > only requires implementing __getitem__, __setitem__, __delitem__,
> > __iter__, and __len__.
> 
> Or, I could derive from collections.OrderedDict and just implement the 
> two methods that I actually want to change the behavior of (did you read 
> the rest of my post?) ;)
> 
> That's one of the points I'm trying to make - why is it harder than it 
> needs to be to do something this simple?
> 
> The other is that the documentation of collections.OrderedDict seems to 
> be lacking (it is talking in terms of being a "dict" subclass, but it 
> actually isn't one).
> 
> E.

Could have fooled me.

C:\python                                                  
Python 3.6.1 (v3.6.1:69c0db5, Mar 21 2017, 18:41:36) [MSC v.1900 64 bit (AMD64)] on win32
Type "help", "copyright", "credits" or "license" for more information.
>>> from collections import OrderedDict
>>> o = OrderedDict()
>>> isinstance(o, dict)
True

Kindest regards.

Mark Lawrence.


From ben+python at benfinney.id.au  Sat Apr 29 20:31:23 2017
From: ben+python at benfinney.id.au (Ben Finney)
Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2017 10:31:23 +1000
Subject: Inconsistency between dict() and collections.OrderedDict()
 methods.
References: <dcdc96e5-013a-1a01-7344-4f7fb4da9851@lucidity.plus.com>
 <mailman.500.1493497193.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <2326677e-65df-46ef-8f53-361685a7ea9c@googlegroups.com>
 <8f139c11-2a11-d112-30b3-80095b5cacad@lucidity.plus.com>
Message-ID: <85o9ve68is.fsf@benfinney.id.au>

Erik <python at lucidity.plus.com> writes:

> On 29/04/17 23:40, Ned Batchelder wrote:
> > For creating your own class that acts like a dict, you should derive
> > from collections.abc.MutableMapping, which only requires
> > implementing __getitem__, __setitem__, __delitem__, __iter__, and
> > __len__.
>
> Or, I could derive from collections.OrderedDict and just implement the
> two methods that I actually want to change the behavior of (did you
> read the rest of my post?) ;)

Did you read Ned's? :-)

You say that there are only two methods you want to change the behaviour
of; but as you have found, those two methods are not the only ones you
need to implement, in order to get the changed behaviour.

> That's one of the points I'm trying to make - why is it harder than it
> needs to be to do something this simple?

The ?needs? have already been expressed, by yourself and Ned: the type
needs to provide fast performance. One cost of that, with the current
implementation, is that you need to implement the MutableMapping
protocol if you want a custom class.

-- 
 \        ?Perchance you who pronounce my sentence are in greater fear |
  `\   than I who receive it.? ?Giordano Bruno, burned at the stake by |
_o__)  the Catholic church for the heresy of heliocentrism, 1600-02-16 |
Ben Finney



From tjreedy at udel.edu  Sat Apr 29 21:00:15 2017
From: tjreedy at udel.edu (Terry Reedy)
Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2017 21:00:15 -0400
Subject: Not understanding itertools.dropwhile()
In-Reply-To: <CANy1k1iMit+QuzjMdQmOtTeKvJ-2z0WCZ1RKqk_nqOjyhYsBSA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CANy1k1iMit+QuzjMdQmOtTeKvJ-2z0WCZ1RKqk_nqOjyhYsBSA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <oe3cup$1o6$1@blaine.gmane.org>

On 4/29/2017 7:41 PM, Jason Friedman wrote:
> <---- start code ---->
> 
> import itertools
> 
> data = """Line1
> Line2
> 
> Line4
> Line5"""
> 
> def test_to_start(s):
>      return "2" in s
> 
> for line in itertools.dropwhile(test_to_start, data.splitlines()):
>      print(line)
> 
> <---- end code ---->
> 
> I expect:
> 
> $ python3 dropwhile.py
> Line2
> 
> Line4
> Line5
> 
> 
> I get:
> 
> $ python3 dropwhile.py
> Line1
> Line2
> 
> Line4
> Line5
> 
> 
> Please explain.

'2' is not in the first line, so 'dropping' stops.  Read the equivalent 
generator code in the doc.


-- 
Terry Jan Reedy



From python at lucidity.plus.com  Sat Apr 29 21:10:46 2017
From: python at lucidity.plus.com (Erik)
Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2017 02:10:46 +0100
Subject: Inconsistency between dict() and collections.OrderedDict()
 methods.
In-Reply-To: <85o9ve68is.fsf@benfinney.id.au>
References: <dcdc96e5-013a-1a01-7344-4f7fb4da9851@lucidity.plus.com>
 <mailman.500.1493497193.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <2326677e-65df-46ef-8f53-361685a7ea9c@googlegroups.com>
 <8f139c11-2a11-d112-30b3-80095b5cacad@lucidity.plus.com>
 <85o9ve68is.fsf@benfinney.id.au>
Message-ID: <06e65b6d-e9d2-a92c-d634-1c9b09b00d7a@lucidity.plus.com>

On 30/04/17 01:31, Ben Finney wrote:
> Erik <python at lucidity.plus.com> writes:
>
>> On 29/04/17 23:40, Ned Batchelder wrote:
>>> For creating your own class that acts like a dict, you should derive
>>> from collections.abc.MutableMapping, which only requires
>>> implementing __getitem__, __setitem__, __delitem__, __iter__, and
>>> __len__.
>>
>> Or, I could derive from collections.OrderedDict and just implement the
>> two methods that I actually want to change the behavior of (did you
>> read the rest of my post?) ;)
>
> Did you read Ned's? :-)

Yes, I did. Which part of Ned's do you think I did not read properly?

> You say that there are only two methods you want to change the behaviour
> of;

Yes, __init__ (so that I can store the valid keys) and __setitem__ (so 
that I can check the key being set).

> but as you have found, those two methods are not the only ones you
> need to implement, in order to get the changed behaviour.

I didn't find that. But I found that I could change exactly those two 
methods if I just derived from a different class that also provides 
another behavior that I don't need (ordered keys).

> you need to implement the MutableMapping
> protocol if you want a custom class

Why do I "need" to do that when I could subclass from OrderedDict instead?

If I'm not being clear:

Is there not a class that is somewhere between "dict" and "OrderedDict" 
that provides what I need? collections.abc.MutableMapping is not that 
class, as it requires me to write all sorts of methods that are 
irrelevant to the behavior changes I want to make (__len__ etc).

E.


From steve+python at pearwood.info  Sat Apr 29 21:27:57 2017
From: steve+python at pearwood.info (Steve D'Aprano)
Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2017 11:27:57 +1000
Subject: Not understanding itertools.dropwhile()
References: <CANy1k1iMit+QuzjMdQmOtTeKvJ-2z0WCZ1RKqk_nqOjyhYsBSA@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.502.1493509299.2951.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <59053d9e$0$1615$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>

On Sun, 30 Apr 2017 09:41 am, Jason Friedman wrote:

> <---- start code ---->
> 
> import itertools
> 
> data = """Line1
> Line2
> 
> Line4
> Line5"""
> 
> def test_to_start(s):
>     return "2" in s
> 
> for line in itertools.dropwhile(test_to_start, data.splitlines()):
>     print(line)
> 
> <---- end code ---->
> 
> I expect:
> 
> $ python3 dropwhile.py
> Line2
> 
> Line4
> Line5

dropwhile drops lines while the condition is true. Once the condition is
false, it stops dropping lines and returns them all. Since the condition
you give is not true at the start, nothing is dropped.

This example may explain how dropwhile is used:


py> lines = """line 1
... line 2
... line 3
... line 4
... another line
... and another line again
... and more lines
... line 8
... line 9
... and one more""".splitlines()
py> def startswith(text):
...     return text.startswith("line")
...
py> for line in itertools.dropwhile(startswith, lines):
...     print(line)
...
another line
and another line again
and more lines
line 8
line 9
and one more


Only lines at the start of the sequence will be dropped. Once the condition
becomes false, everything else is passed through. We can implement our own
version of dropwhile like this:

def my_dropwhile(condition, iterable):
    it = iter(iterable)
    for item in it:
        if not condition(item):
            yield item
            break
    for item in it: # anything remaining
        yield item


If you just want to remove lines, whether they are at the start or the
middle or the end, you should use either the built-in filter() or
itertools.filterfalse().




-- 
Steve
Emoji: a small, fuzzy, indistinct picture used to replace a clear and
perfectly comprehensible word.



From python at lucidity.plus.com  Sat Apr 29 21:30:12 2017
From: python at lucidity.plus.com (Erik)
Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2017 02:30:12 +0100
Subject: Inconsistency between dict() and collections.OrderedDict()
 methods.
In-Reply-To: <844bd98c-f9cd-41e8-909f-78510e470425@googlegroups.com>
References: <dcdc96e5-013a-1a01-7344-4f7fb4da9851@lucidity.plus.com>
 <mailman.500.1493497193.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <2326677e-65df-46ef-8f53-361685a7ea9c@googlegroups.com>
 <8f139c11-2a11-d112-30b3-80095b5cacad@lucidity.plus.com>
 <mailman.501.1493508188.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <844bd98c-f9cd-41e8-909f-78510e470425@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <4111eb04-7eb4-a004-39e2-1f31e15777e5@lucidity.plus.com>

On 30/04/17 01:17, breamoreboy at gmail.com wrote:
> On Sunday, April 30, 2017 at 12:23:19 AM UTC+1, Erik wrote:
>> The other is that the documentation of collections.OrderedDict seems to
>> be lacking (it is talking in terms of being a "dict" subclass, but it
>> actually isn't one).
>>
>> E.
>
> Could have fooled me.
>
> C:\python
> Python 3.6.1 (v3.6.1:69c0db5, Mar 21 2017, 18:41:36) [MSC v.1900 64 bit (AMD64)] on win32
> Type "help", "copyright", "credits" or "license" for more information.
>>>> from collections import OrderedDict
>>>> o = OrderedDict()
>>>> isinstance(o, dict)
> True

OK, so technically it is a subclass, I didn't notice that, but where 
does the documentation explain all of the differences in behaviour? It 
doesn't. It states "it's a subclass of dict that does <this> and <that>" 
(by which I mean "order the keys") and it's not unreasonable to 
therefore believe that's _all_ it does differently. If if it actually 
does "<this>, <that>, <the other>, <something>, <foo>" (by which I mean 
"order the keys and implement very different behavior for other methods 
such as __init__ and __update__") then the documentation is lacking 
(because it doesn't mention it). Isn't that what I said?

E.



From breamoreboy at gmail.com  Sat Apr 29 22:53:13 2017
From: breamoreboy at gmail.com (breamoreboy at gmail.com)
Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2017 19:53:13 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Inconsistency between dict() and collections.OrderedDict()
 methods.
In-Reply-To: <mailman.508.1493515815.2951.python-list@python.org>
References: <dcdc96e5-013a-1a01-7344-4f7fb4da9851@lucidity.plus.com>
 <mailman.500.1493497193.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <2326677e-65df-46ef-8f53-361685a7ea9c@googlegroups.com>
 <8f139c11-2a11-d112-30b3-80095b5cacad@lucidity.plus.com>
 <mailman.501.1493508188.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <844bd98c-f9cd-41e8-909f-78510e470425@googlegroups.com>
 <4111eb04-7eb4-a004-39e2-1f31e15777e5@lucidity.plus.com>
 <mailman.508.1493515815.2951.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <cf72f0c4-f032-4040-938b-e2a3dd198af6@googlegroups.com>

On Sunday, April 30, 2017 at 2:30:25 AM UTC+1, Erik wrote:
> On 30/04/17 01:17, breamoreboy wrote:
> > On Sunday, April 30, 2017 at 12:23:19 AM UTC+1, Erik wrote:
> >> The other is that the documentation of collections.OrderedDict seems to
> >> be lacking (it is talking in terms of being a "dict" subclass, but it
> >> actually isn't one).
> >>
> >> E.
> >
> > Could have fooled me.
> >
> > C:\python
> > Python 3.6.1 (v3.6.1:69c0db5, Mar 21 2017, 18:41:36) [MSC v.1900 64 bit (AMD64)] on win32
> > Type "help", "copyright", "credits" or "license" for more information.
> >>>> from collections import OrderedDict
> >>>> o = OrderedDict()
> >>>> isinstance(o, dict)
> > True
> 
> OK, so technically it is a subclass, I didn't notice that, but where 
> does the documentation explain all of the differences in behaviour? It 
> doesn't. It states "it's a subclass of dict that does <this> and <that>" 
> (by which I mean "order the keys") and it's not unreasonable to 
> therefore believe that's _all_ it does differently. If if it actually 
> does "<this>, <that>, <the other>, <something>, <foo>" (by which I mean 
> "order the keys and implement very different behavior for other methods 
> such as __init__ and __update__") then the documentation is lacking 
> (because it doesn't mention it). Isn't that what I said?
> 
> E.

So provide a documentation patch on the bug tracker.

Once you've done that how about subclassing UserDict https://docs.python.org/3.5/library/collections.html#collections.UserDict, pinching any code from OrderedDict as needed?

Kindest regards.

Mark Lawrence.


From jeanpierreda at gmail.com  Sat Apr 29 23:51:53 2017
From: jeanpierreda at gmail.com (Devin Jeanpierre)
Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2017 20:51:53 -0700
Subject: tempname.mktemp functionality deprecation
In-Reply-To: <20170429134558.295ef850@bigbox.christie.dr>
References: <20170429134558.295ef850@bigbox.christie.dr>
Message-ID: <CABicbJ+i=XdsCAE+mwO10Xoo--eUeZeJBJkebZ=3jBM1CJESfQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Apr 29, 2017 at 11:45 AM, Tim Chase
<python.list at tim.thechases.com> wrote:
> Unfortunately, tempfile.mktemp() is described as deprecated
> since 2.3 (though appears to still exist in the 3.4.2 that is the
> default Py3 on Debian Stable). While the deprecation notice says
> "In version 2.3 of Python, this module was overhauled for enhanced
> security. It now provides three new functions, NamedTemporaryFile(),
> mkstemp(), and mkdtemp(), which should eliminate all remaining need
> to use the insecure mktemp() function", as best I can tell, all of
> the other functions/objects in the tempfile module return a file
> object, not a string suitable for passing to link().
>
> So which route should I pursue?
>
> - go ahead and use tempfile.mktemp() ignoring the deprecation?
>
> - use a GUID-named temp-file instead for less chance of collision?
>
> - I happen to already have a hash of the file contents, so use
>   the .hexdigest() string as the temp-file name?
>
> - some other solution I've missed?

I vote the last one: you can read the .name attribute of the returned
file(-like) object from NamedTemporaryFile to get a path to a file,
which can be passed to other functions.

I guess ideally, one would use linkat instead of os.link[*], but that's
platform-specific and not exposed in Python AFAIK. Maybe things would
be better if all the functions that accept filenames should also
accept files, and do the best job they can? (if a platform supports
using the fd instead, use that, otherwise use f.name).

.. *: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/17127522/create-a-hard-link-from-a-file-handle-on-unix/18644492#18644492

-- Devin


From rosuav at gmail.com  Sun Apr 30 00:31:51 2017
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2017 14:31:51 +1000
Subject: tempname.mktemp functionality deprecation
In-Reply-To: <CABicbJ+i=XdsCAE+mwO10Xoo--eUeZeJBJkebZ=3jBM1CJESfQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20170429134558.295ef850@bigbox.christie.dr>
 <CABicbJ+i=XdsCAE+mwO10Xoo--eUeZeJBJkebZ=3jBM1CJESfQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmqPf68VY-n2UPQh8cHrzHfGvXBifMurY0rf=PiArmwNPA@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Apr 30, 2017 at 1:51 PM, Devin Jeanpierre
<jeanpierreda at gmail.com> wrote:
> I guess ideally, one would use linkat instead of os.link[*], but that's
> platform-specific and not exposed in Python AFAIK.

It is actually - src_dir_fd and dst_dir_fd.

https://docs.python.org/3/library/os.html#os.link

ChrisA


From greg.ewing at canterbury.ac.nz  Sun Apr 30 02:40:20 2017
From: greg.ewing at canterbury.ac.nz (Gregory Ewing)
Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2017 18:40:20 +1200
Subject: tempname.mktemp functionality deprecation
In-Reply-To: <mailman.509.1493524362.2951.python-list@python.org>
References: <20170429134558.295ef850@bigbox.christie.dr>
 <CABicbJ+i=XdsCAE+mwO10Xoo--eUeZeJBJkebZ=3jBM1CJESfQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.509.1493524362.2951.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <emlf6nFld0aU1@mid.individual.net>

Devin Jeanpierre wrote:
> I vote the last one: you can read the .name attribute of the returned
> file(-like) object from NamedTemporaryFile to get a path to a file,
> which can be passed to other functions.

I don't think that helps. You would have to delete the file
first before you could create a link with that name, and that
would leave a window of opportunity for another process to
create something with the same name.

I would generate a name that's likely to be unique (using
mktemp() or otherwise) and try to create a link with that name.
If it fails because the name is in use, generate another name
and try again.

-- 
Greg


From greg.ewing at canterbury.ac.nz  Sun Apr 30 02:52:33 2017
From: greg.ewing at canterbury.ac.nz (Gregory Ewing)
Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2017 18:52:33 +1200
Subject: Inconsistency between dict() and collections.OrderedDict()  
 methods.
In-Reply-To: <mailman.507.1493514649.2951.python-list@python.org>
References: <dcdc96e5-013a-1a01-7344-4f7fb4da9851@lucidity.plus.com>
 <mailman.500.1493497193.2951.python-list@python.org>
 <2326677e-65df-46ef-8f53-361685a7ea9c@googlegroups.com>
 <8f139c11-2a11-d112-30b3-80095b5cacad@lucidity.plus.com>
 <85o9ve68is.fsf@benfinney.id.au>
 <06e65b6d-e9d2-a92c-d634-1c9b09b00d7a@lucidity.plus.com>
 <mailman.507.1493514649.2951.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <emlftkFlgv8U1@mid.individual.net>

Erik wrote:
> Is there not a class that is somewhere between "dict" and "OrderedDict" 
> that provides what I need?

Such a class could exist, but the stdlib doesn't happen to provide
one as far as I know.

Note, though, that you're relying on implementation details of
OrderedDict when you use it to "fix" your problem in this way.
It happens to work in some versions of Python, but it might not
work in the next one.

 > OK, so technically it is a subclass, I didn't notice that, but where
 > does the documentation explain all of the differences in behaviour?

It doesn't, but the differences you're talking about are differences
between undocumented behavour of dict and undocumented behaviour
of OrderedDict. The docs are under no obligation to tell you about any
of that.

-- 
Greg


From __peter__ at web.de  Sun Apr 30 03:19:46 2017
From: __peter__ at web.de (Peter Otten)
Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2017 09:19:46 +0200
Subject: Not understanding itertools.dropwhile()
References: <CANy1k1iMit+QuzjMdQmOtTeKvJ-2z0WCZ1RKqk_nqOjyhYsBSA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <oe436e$jnv$1@blaine.gmane.org>

Jason Friedman wrote:

> def test_to_start(s):
>     return "2" in s
> 
> for line in itertools.dropwhile(test_to_start, data.splitlines()):
>     print(line)

It's really all in the names: it could either be

for line in dropwhile(test_to_drop, items):
    ...

or

for line in dropwhilenot(test_to_start, items):
    ...
 
> <---- end code ---->
> 
> I expect:
> 
> $ python3 dropwhile.py
> Line2
> 
> Line4
> Line5
> 
> 
> I get:
> 
> $ python3 dropwhile.py
> Line1
> Line2
> 
> Line4
> Line5
> 
> 
> Please explain.




From alister.ware at ntlworld.com  Sun Apr 30 06:47:10 2017
From: alister.ware at ntlworld.com (alister)
Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2017 10:47:10 GMT
Subject: Rosetta: Count in factors
References: <oe32mm$dfe$1@gioia.aioe.org>
Message-ID: <OgjNA.1349523$3B6.247158@fx40.am4>

On Sat, 29 Apr 2017 22:05:16 +0000, Robert L. wrote:

>> Task
>> 
>> Write a program which counts up from 1, displaying each number as the
>> multiplication of its prime factors.
>> 
>> For the purpose of this task, 1 (unity) may be shown as itself.
>> 
>> 
>> Example
>> 
>>    2   is prime,   so it would be shown as itself. 6   is not prime;  
>>    it would be shown as   2 x 3
>> 2144   is not prime;   it would be shown as   2 x 2 x 2 x 2 x 2 x 67
> 
> 
> require 'prime'
> 
> puts " 1: 1" ; (2..23).each{|n|
>   printf "%2d: %s\n", n,
>     Prime.prime_division(n).map{|f,c| ([f]*c).join ' x '}.join(' x ')
> }
> 
>  1: 1 2: 2 3: 3 4: 2 x 2 5: 5 6: 2 x 3 7: 7 8: 2 x 2 x 2 9: 3 x 3
> 10: 2 x 5 11: 11 12: 2 x 2 x 3 13: 13 14: 2 x 7 15: 3 x 5 16: 2 x 2 x 2
> x 2 17: 17 18: 2 x 3 x 3 19: 19 20: 2 x 2 x 5 21: 3 x 7 22: 2 x 11 23:
> 23

It does not help a student if you do their homework for them,

much better to provide hints & guidance



-- 
Why do mathematicians insist on using words that already have another
meaning?  "It is the complex case that is easier to deal with."  "If it
doesn't happen at a corner, but at an edge, it nonetheless happens at a
corner."


From python.list at tim.thechases.com  Sun Apr 30 07:52:17 2017
From: python.list at tim.thechases.com (Tim Chase)
Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2017 06:52:17 -0500
Subject: tempname.mktemp functionality deprecation
In-Reply-To: <CABicbJ+i=XdsCAE+mwO10Xoo--eUeZeJBJkebZ=3jBM1CJESfQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20170429134558.295ef850@bigbox.christie.dr>
 <CABicbJ+i=XdsCAE+mwO10Xoo--eUeZeJBJkebZ=3jBM1CJESfQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20170430065217.6f1b213a@bigbox.christie.dr>

On 2017-04-29 20:51, Devin Jeanpierre wrote:
> On Sat, Apr 29, 2017 at 11:45 AM, Tim Chase wrote
> > So which route should I pursue?
> >
> > - go ahead and use tempfile.mktemp() ignoring the deprecation?
> >
> > - use a GUID-named temp-file instead for less chance of collision?
> >
> > - I happen to already have a hash of the file contents, so use
> >   the .hexdigest() string as the temp-file name?
> >
> > - some other solution I've missed?
> 
> I vote the last one: you can read the .name attribute of the
> returned file(-like) object from NamedTemporaryFile to get a path
> to a file, which can be passed to other functions.

Unfortunately, his entails the file-preexisting, causing the same
EEXISTS problem as before:

  $ cd ~/tmp
  $ echo hello > a
  $ python
  ...
  >>> from tempfile import NamedTemporaryFile as NTF
  >>> f = NTF(dir='.')
  >>> import os
  >>> os.link('a', f.name)
  Traceback (most recent call last):
    File "<stdin>", line 1, in <module>
  OSError: [Errno 17] File exists
  >>> f.name
  '/home/tim/tmp/tmpokEpht'

-tkc




From hackerwade at gmail.com  Sun Apr 30 09:09:45 2017
From: hackerwade at gmail.com (Wade Wang)
Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2017 21:09:45 +0800
Subject: test_imaplib fail when installing python3.6.1 on centos6.9
Message-ID: <CAKv40h7+Cbegmf_1EMqwfS_68VHeqrHKNQ2+QYT88pj=3mFdGQ@mail.gmail.com>

Hello, everyone. I'm trying to install Python 3.6.1 on my CentOS 6.9
server, but test_imaplib always fails its test when make test. Here is what
I got:

> ======================================================================
> ERROR: test_logincapa_with_client_certfile (test.test_imaplib.RemoteIMAP_
SSLTest)
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> Traceback (most recent call last):
>   File "/root/Python-3.6.1/Lib/test/test_imaplib.py", line 973, in
test_logincapa_with_client_certfile
>     certfile=CERTFILE)
>   File "/root/Python-3.6.1/Lib/imaplib.py", line 1280, in __init__
>     IMAP4.__init__(self, host, port)
>   File "/root/Python-3.6.1/Lib/imaplib.py", line 197, in __init__
>     self.open(host, port)
>   File "/root/Python-3.6.1/Lib/imaplib.py", line 1293, in open
>     IMAP4.open(self, host, port)
>   File "/root/Python-3.6.1/Lib/imaplib.py", line 294, in open
>     self.sock = self._create_socket()
>   File "/root/Python-3.6.1/Lib/imaplib.py", line 1285, in _create_socket
>     server_hostname=self.host)
>   File "/root/Python-3.6.1/Lib/ssl.py", line 401, in wrap_socket
>     _context=self, _session=session)
>   File "/root/Python-3.6.1/Lib/ssl.py", line 808, in __init__
>     self.do_handshake()
>   File "/root/Python-3.6.1/Lib/ssl.py", line 1061, in do_handshake
>     self._sslobj.do_handshake()
>   File "/root/Python-3.6.1/Lib/ssl.py", line 683, in do_handshake
>     self._sslobj.do_handshake()
> ssl.SSLError: [SSL: TLSV1_ALERT_UNKNOWN_CA] tlsv1 alert unknown ca
(_ssl.c:749)
>
> ======================================================================
> ERROR: test_logincapa_with_client_ssl_context
(test.test_imaplib.RemoteIMAP_SSLTest)
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> Traceback (most recent call last):
>   File "/root/Python-3.6.1/Lib/test/test_imaplib.py", line 979, in
> test_logincapa_with_client_ssl_context
>     self.host, self.port, ssl_context=self.create_ssl_context())
>   File "/root/Python-3.6.1/Lib/imaplib.py", line 1280, in __init__
>     IMAP4.__init__(self, host, port)
>   File "/root/Python-3.6.1/Lib/imaplib.py", line 197, in __init__
>     self.open(host, port)
>   File "/root/Python-3.6.1/Lib/imaplib.py", line 1293, in open
>     IMAP4.open(self, host, port)
>   File "/root/Python-3.6.1/Lib/imaplib.py", line 294, in open
>     self.sock = self._create_socket()
>   File "/root/Python-3.6.1/Lib/imaplib.py", line 1285, in _create_socket
>     server_hostname=self.host)
>   File "/root/Python-3.6.1/Lib/ssl.py", line 401, in wrap_socket
>     _context=self, _session=session)
>   File "/root/Python-3.6.1/Lib/ssl.py", line 808, in __init__
>     self.do_handshake()
>   File "/root/Python-3.6.1/Lib/ssl.py", line 1061, in do_handshake
>     self._sslobj.do_handshake()
>   File "/root/Python-3.6.1/Lib/ssl.py", line 683, in do_handshake
>     self._sslobj.do_handshake()
> ssl.SSLError: [SSL: TLSV1_ALERT_UNKNOWN_CA] tlsv1 alert unknown ca
(_ssl.c:749)
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> Ran 95 tests in 27.005s
>
> FAILED (errors=2)
> 1 test failed again:
>     test_imaplib
>
> Total duration: 6 min 34 sec
> Tests result: FAILURE
> make: *** [test] Error 1

Any solution or suggestion?


From tjreedy at udel.edu  Sun Apr 30 15:46:23 2017
From: tjreedy at udel.edu (Terry Reedy)
Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2017 15:46:23 -0400
Subject: test_imaplib fail when installing python3.6.1 on centos6.9
In-Reply-To: <CAKv40h7+Cbegmf_1EMqwfS_68VHeqrHKNQ2+QYT88pj=3mFdGQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAKv40h7+Cbegmf_1EMqwfS_68VHeqrHKNQ2+QYT88pj=3mFdGQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <oe5eua$hik$1@blaine.gmane.org>

On 4/30/2017 9:09 AM, Wade Wang wrote:
> Hello, everyone. I'm trying to install Python 3.6.1 on my CentOS 6.9
> server, but test_imaplib always fails its test when make test. Here is what
> I got:
> 
>> ======================================================================
>> ERROR: test_logincapa_with_client_certfile (test.test_imaplib.RemoteIMAP_
> SSLTest)
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>> Traceback (most recent call last):
>>    File "/root/Python-3.6.1/Lib/test/test_imaplib.py", line 973, in
> test_logincapa_with_client_certfile
>>      certfile=CERTFILE)
>>    File "/root/Python-3.6.1/Lib/imaplib.py", line 1280, in __init__
>>      IMAP4.__init__(self, host, port)
>>    File "/root/Python-3.6.1/Lib/imaplib.py", line 197, in __init__
>>      self.open(host, port)
>>    File "/root/Python-3.6.1/Lib/imaplib.py", line 1293, in open
>>      IMAP4.open(self, host, port)
>>    File "/root/Python-3.6.1/Lib/imaplib.py", line 294, in open
>>      self.sock = self._create_socket()
>>    File "/root/Python-3.6.1/Lib/imaplib.py", line 1285, in _create_socket
>>      server_hostname=self.host)
>>    File "/root/Python-3.6.1/Lib/ssl.py", line 401, in wrap_socket
>>      _context=self, _session=session)
>>    File "/root/Python-3.6.1/Lib/ssl.py", line 808, in __init__
>>      self.do_handshake()
>>    File "/root/Python-3.6.1/Lib/ssl.py", line 1061, in do_handshake
>>      self._sslobj.do_handshake()
>>    File "/root/Python-3.6.1/Lib/ssl.py", line 683, in do_handshake
>>      self._sslobj.do_handshake()
>> ssl.SSLError: [SSL: TLSV1_ALERT_UNKNOWN_CA] tlsv1 alert unknown ca
> (_ssl.c:749)
>>
>> ======================================================================
>> ERROR: test_logincapa_with_client_ssl_context
> (test.test_imaplib.RemoteIMAP_SSLTest)
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>> Traceback (most recent call last):
>>    File "/root/Python-3.6.1/Lib/test/test_imaplib.py", line 979, in
>> test_logincapa_with_client_ssl_context
>>      self.host, self.port, ssl_context=self.create_ssl_context())
>>    File "/root/Python-3.6.1/Lib/imaplib.py", line 1280, in __init__
>>      IMAP4.__init__(self, host, port)
>>    File "/root/Python-3.6.1/Lib/imaplib.py", line 197, in __init__
>>      self.open(host, port)
>>    File "/root/Python-3.6.1/Lib/imaplib.py", line 1293, in open
>>      IMAP4.open(self, host, port)
>>    File "/root/Python-3.6.1/Lib/imaplib.py", line 294, in open
>>      self.sock = self._create_socket()
>>    File "/root/Python-3.6.1/Lib/imaplib.py", line 1285, in _create_socket
>>      server_hostname=self.host)
>>    File "/root/Python-3.6.1/Lib/ssl.py", line 401, in wrap_socket
>>      _context=self, _session=session)
>>    File "/root/Python-3.6.1/Lib/ssl.py", line 808, in __init__
>>      self.do_handshake()
>>    File "/root/Python-3.6.1/Lib/ssl.py", line 1061, in do_handshake
>>      self._sslobj.do_handshake()
>>    File "/root/Python-3.6.1/Lib/ssl.py", line 683, in do_handshake
>>      self._sslobj.do_handshake()
>> ssl.SSLError: [SSL: TLSV1_ALERT_UNKNOWN_CA] tlsv1 alert unknown ca
> (_ssl.c:749)
>>
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>> Ran 95 tests in 27.005s
>>
>> FAILED (errors=2)
>> 1 test failed again:
>>      test_imaplib
>>
>> Total duration: 6 min 34 sec
>> Tests result: FAILURE
>> make: *** [test] Error 1
> 
> Any solution or suggestion?

Unless you get a better solution here, open an issue on bugs.python.org. 
  In the Nosy list box, enter 'ssl' and click the list under 'module'.


-- 
Terry Jan Reedy



From cs at zip.com.au  Sun Apr 30 18:41:43 2017
From: cs at zip.com.au (Cameron Simpson)
Date: Mon, 1 May 2017 08:41:43 +1000
Subject: tempname.mktemp functionality deprecation
In-Reply-To: <20170430065217.6f1b213a@bigbox.christie.dr>
References: <20170430065217.6f1b213a@bigbox.christie.dr>
Message-ID: <20170430224143.GA17065@cskk.homeip.net>

On 30Apr2017 06:52, Tim Chase <python.list at tim.thechases.com> wrote:
>On 2017-04-29 20:51, Devin Jeanpierre wrote:
>> On Sat, Apr 29, 2017 at 11:45 AM, Tim Chase wrote
>> > So which route should I pursue?
>> > - go ahead and use tempfile.mktemp() ignoring the deprecation?

I'd be tempted to. But...

>> > - use a GUID-named temp-file instead for less chance of collision?

You could, but mktemp is supposed to robustly perform that task, versus "very 
very probably".

>> > - I happen to already have a hash of the file contents, so use
>> >   the .hexdigest() string as the temp-file name?

Hashes collide. (Yes, I know that for your purposes we consider that they 
don't; I have a very similar situation of my own). And what if your process is 
running twice, or leaves around a previous temp file by accident (or 
interruption) _or_ the file tree contains filenames named after the hash of 
their content (not actually unheard of)?

>> > - some other solution I've missed?

What about some variation on:

  from tempfile import NamedTemporaryFile
  ...
  with NamedTemporaryFile(dir=your_target_directory) as T:
      use T.name, and do your rename/unlink in here

Cheers,
Cameron Simpson <cs at zip.com.au>


From ben+python at benfinney.id.au  Sun Apr 30 19:15:04 2017
From: ben+python at benfinney.id.au (Ben Finney)
Date: Mon, 01 May 2017 09:15:04 +1000
Subject: tempname.mktemp functionality deprecation
References: <20170429134558.295ef850@bigbox.christie.dr>
Message-ID: <85fugp5vyf.fsf@benfinney.id.au>

Tim Chase <python.list at tim.thechases.com> writes:

> Unfortunately, tempfile.mktemp() is described as deprecated since 2.3
> (though appears to still exist in the 3.4.2 that is the default Py3 on
> Debian Stable). While the deprecation notice says "In version 2.3 of
> Python, this module was overhauled for enhanced security. It now
> provides three new functions, NamedTemporaryFile(), mkstemp(), and
> mkdtemp(), which should eliminate all remaining need to use the
> insecure mktemp() function", as best I can tell, all of the other
> functions/objects in the tempfile module return a file object, not a
> string suitable for passing to link().

The problem you describe is that ?tmpfile.mktemp? is deprecated, but
there is no other supported standard-library API which does its job.

I reported this ? for a different use case ? in issue26362 [0]
<URL:https://bugs.python.org/issue26362>.

The suggested solutions in the documentation do not address the use case
described there; and they do not address the use case you've described
here either.

Would you be kind enough to update that issue with a description of your
use case as well?


[0] The issue currently has a message from me, over a year ago, saying
    that I will ?work on a patch soon?. I'd welcome someone else taking
    that job.

-- 
 \     ?Books and opinions, no matter from whom they came, if they are |
  `\     in opposition to human rights, are nothing but dead letters.? |
_o__)                                                  ?Ernestine Rose |
Ben Finney



From drsalists at gmail.com  Sun Apr 30 19:50:22 2017
From: drsalists at gmail.com (Dan Stromberg)
Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2017 16:50:22 -0700
Subject: tempname.mktemp functionality deprecation
In-Reply-To: <20170429134558.295ef850@bigbox.christie.dr>
References: <20170429134558.295ef850@bigbox.christie.dr>
Message-ID: <CAGGBd_rSf+cX17KoP1Giq5=+brrw-rfd4_jo3OVq49mexbmmCA@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Apr 29, 2017 at 11:45 AM, Tim Chase
<python.list at tim.thechases.com> wrote:
> Working on some deduplication code, I want do my my best at
> performing an atomic re-hard-linking atop an existing file, akin to
> "ln -f source.txt dest.txt"
>
> However, when I issue
>
>   os.link("source.txt", "dest.txt")
>
> it fails with an OSError (EEXISTS).  This isn't surprising as it's
> documented.  Unfortunately, os.link doesn't support something like
>
>   os.link("source.txt", "dest.txt", force=True)

FWIW, ln -f appears to unlink on Linux Mint 18 (GNU coreutils 8.25):
$ strace -f ln -f file file2 2>&1 | tail -15
below cmd output started 2017 Sun Apr 30 04:47:53 PM PDT
munmap(0x7f804fcb4000, 147404)          = 0
brk(NULL)                               = 0x225c000
brk(0x227d000)                          = 0x227d000
stat("file2", {st_mode=S_IFREG|0644, st_size=0, ...}) = 0
lstat("file", {st_mode=S_IFREG|0644, st_size=0, ...}) = 0
lstat("file2", {st_mode=S_IFREG|0644, st_size=0, ...}) = 0
linkat(AT_FDCWD, "file", AT_FDCWD, "file2", 0) = -1 EEXIST (File exists)
unlink("file2")                         = 0
linkat(AT_FDCWD, "file", AT_FDCWD, "file2", 0) = 0
lseek(0, 0, SEEK_CUR)                   = -1 ESPIPE (Illegal seek)
close(0)                                = 0
close(1)                                = 0
close(2)                                = 0
exit_group(0)                           = ?
+++ exited with 0 +++

HTH


From python.list at tim.thechases.com  Sun Apr 30 22:42:58 2017
From: python.list at tim.thechases.com (Tim Chase)
Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2017 21:42:58 -0500
Subject: tempname.mktemp functionality deprecation
In-Reply-To: <20170430224143.GA17065@cskk.homeip.net>
References: <20170430065217.6f1b213a@bigbox.christie.dr>
 <20170430224143.GA17065@cskk.homeip.net>
Message-ID: <20170430214258.68943272@bigbox.christie.dr>

On 2017-05-01 08:41, Cameron Simpson wrote:
> On 30Apr2017 06:52, Tim Chase <python.list at tim.thechases.com> wrote:
> >> > - use a GUID-named temp-file instead for less chance of
> >> > collision?
> 
> You could, but mktemp is supposed to robustly perform that task,
> versus "very very probably".

Though with the potential of its race-condition, mktemp() isn't a much
stronger guarantee.  A GUID seems like the best route.

> >> > - I happen to already have a hash of the file contents, so use
> >> >   the .hexdigest() string as the temp-file name?
> 
> Hashes collide. (Yes, I know that for your purposes we consider
> that they don't; I have a very similar situation of my own). And
> what if your process is running twice, or leaves around a previous
> temp file by accident (or interruption) _or_ the file tree contains
> filenames named after the hash of their content (not actually
> unheard of)?

In both case #1 (a *file* happens to have the name of the SHA256 hash,
but has different file contents) and case #2 (another process running
generates a *link* with the SHA256 of the matching content), the
os.link() should fail with the EEXISTS which I'm okay with.
Likewise, if there's an interruption, I'd rather have the stray
SHA-named link floating around than lose an existing file-name.

> What about some variation on:
> 
>   from tempfile import NamedTemporaryFile
>   ...
>   with NamedTemporaryFile(dir=your_target_directory) as T:
>       use T.name, and do your rename/unlink in here

As mentioned in my follow-up (which strangely your reply came in with
a References header referencing), the NamedTemporaryFile creates the
file on-disk, which means os.link(source, T.name) fails with the
EEXISTS.

-tkc






From python.list at tim.thechases.com  Sun Apr 30 22:49:28 2017
From: python.list at tim.thechases.com (Tim Chase)
Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2017 21:49:28 -0500
Subject: tempname.mktemp functionality deprecation
In-Reply-To: <85fugp5vyf.fsf@benfinney.id.au>
References: <20170429134558.295ef850@bigbox.christie.dr>
 <85fugp5vyf.fsf@benfinney.id.au>
Message-ID: <20170430214928.3a6cceb1@bigbox.christie.dr>

On 2017-05-01 09:15, Ben Finney wrote:
> I reported this ? for a different use case ? in issue26362 [0]
> <URL:https://bugs.python.org/issue26362>.
> 
> The suggested solutions in the documentation do not address the use
> case described there; and they do not address the use case you've
> described here either.
> 
> Would you be kind enough to update that issue with a description of
> your use case as well?

Done, linking to this thread:  http://bugs.python.org/msg292648

-tkc





From metaliobovinus at gmail.com  Sun Apr 30 23:01:17 2017
From: metaliobovinus at gmail.com (Metallicow)
Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2017 20:01:17 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: MCOW package
Message-ID: <3f0d7e46-c85c-47f3-9bc7-44c886608953@googlegroups.com>

I finally uploaded my wx/lib/mcow package.
It has many widgets and mixins and probably more to come.


It has been extensively tested on Windows and at least tested on a linux flavor.
It would be nice if I could get some mac testing also. :)

https://github.com/Metallicow/MCOW


From metaliobovinus at gmail.com  Sun Apr 30 23:02:47 2017
From: metaliobovinus at gmail.com (Metallicow)
Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2017 20:02:47 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: MCOW package
Message-ID: <d45bc71f-24f7-49ac-ad57-3f88e711ceb3@googlegroups.com>

I finally uploaded my wx/lib/mcow package.
It has many widgets and mixins and probably more to come.


It has been extensively tested on Windows and at least tested on a linux flavor.
It would be nice if I could get some mac testing also. :)

https://github.com/Metallicow/MCOW


From steve+python at pearwood.info  Sun Apr 30 23:47:35 2017
From: steve+python at pearwood.info (Steve D'Aprano)
Date: Mon, 01 May 2017 13:47:35 +1000
Subject: MCOW package
References: <3f0d7e46-c85c-47f3-9bc7-44c886608953@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <5906afd8$0$1600$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>

On Mon, 1 May 2017 01:01 pm, Metallicow wrote:

> I finally uploaded my wx/lib/mcow package.
> It has many widgets and mixins and probably more to come.

Congratulations! What does it do?




-- 
Steve
Emoji: a small, fuzzy, indistinct picture used to replace a clear and
perfectly comprehensible word.