Instead of deciding between Python or Lisp for a programming intro course...What about an intro course that uses *BOTH*? Good idea?

[zipher]

On Friday, May 15, 2015 at 10:36:45 PM UTC-5, Rustom Mody wrote:
> On Saturday, May 16, 2015 at 8:56:00 AM UTC+5:30, zipher wrote:
> > On Wednesday, May 13, 2015 at 9:36:27 PM UTC-5, Mark Lawrence wrote:
> > > On 14/05/2015 02:40, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
> > > > On Thu, 14 May 2015 04:07 am, zipher wrote:
> > > >
> > > >>
> > > >> No, you haven't understood, padawan.  Lambda *is* the function, not it's
> > > >> definition.  Perhaps you will understand what I mean by that, perhaps you
> > > >> won't.  It's subtle.
> > > >
> > > > Subtle like a kick to the head.
> > > 
> > >  From the very first drivel that he posted on python ideas just over two 
> > > years ago, he's shown that he's incapable of any logical thought 
> > > relating to computing, in just the same way that the RUE has never 
> > > posted anything logical about the FSR.  Please can we stop feeding him.
> > 
> > The truth is quite the opposite.  There is something very strange going on around the nets.  People are very confused.  Javascript has confused them.   Tell me where is the lexer in Javascript?  or the virtual machine?
> > 
> > The point I'm making about LISP is that in LISP you don't define a function, it IS the function.  Instead of f(x,y) = x+y, which is how you code a traditional program, you only show/program f itself.  In the lambda calculus, it is expressed f = /(x,y).x+y where / is the lambda character, not f(x) or f OF x.  Do you see why the difference is subtle? 
> > 
> > Java has a virtual machine.  Python has a virtual machine.  Do you think Chrome and these browsers include virtual machines to run on 50 different architectures?  I'm actually curious if anyone has a non-magical answer to it.  We all assume that computers can only act logically and have always acted such.  But they way some people act and the way somethings are being done is making questions.  Perhaps I'm the only one.
> > 
> 
> As for chrome and its specific VM
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/V8_%28JavaScript_engine%29
> 
> As for the rest...
> We are as confused by your confusions as you are
> 
> [Your continual assertions about everyone everywhere being totally confused
> reminds me of my first trip to N America where I was unnerved to find everyone
> driving on the wrong side of the road]

Thanks for that note, actually, it's quite apropos.  I'm a space cowboy who's trying to tell people what I've seen from "outside the fishbowl".  To those in the fishbowl, they don't think that they're in water, because they've never been outside of it--the concept doesn't exist.  But I left the orthodoxy (without throwing it away) and saw from the outside.  Zen is one of the nodal points of that outside.  And from that view, I can tell you that Python has abandoned much of it`s Zen to the point that is now only held by the programmers who still believe in it like some lost ancient tablet that they keep in their pocket.

It can come back easily, though.  One conversation in person with a whiteboard would do it.  I'm starting to see why I'm seen as such an iconoclast:  I've been outside of it for a long time and have taken it for granted -- I couldn't see my own "water".  Oh well.  Maybe the relationship will be mended with the community, or maybe not.  My psychological states go from one extreme to another, so that's my "thing" in case anyone was wondering what my issue is--it's happened ever since getting tazered.  It sucked.

Mark