"More About Unicode in Python 2 and 3"

[Ned Batchelder]

On 1/6/14 11:29 AM, Antoine Pitrou wrote:
> Ned Batchelder <ned <at> nedbatchelder.com> writes:
>>
>> You can look through his problems and decide that he's "wrong," or that
>> he's "ranting," but that doesn't change the fact that Python 3 is
>> encountering friction.  What happens when a significant fraction of your
>> customers are "wrong"?
>
> Well, yes, there is some friction and this is quite expectable, when
> shipping incompatible changes. Other pieces of software have undergone a
> similar process (e.g. Apache 1.x -> Apache 2.x).
>
> (the alternative is to maintain a piece of software that sticks with obsolete
> conventions, e.g. emacs)
>
>> Core developers: I thank you for the countless hours you have devoted to
>> building all of the versions of Python.  I'm sure in many ways it's a
>> thankless task.  But you have a problem.  What's the point in being
>> right if you end up with a product that people don't use?
>
> People don't use? According to available figures, there are more downloads of
> Python 3 than downloads of Python 2 (Windows installers, mostly):
> http://www.python.org/webstats/
>
> The number of Python 3-compatible packages has been showing a constant and
> healthy increase for years:
> http://dev.pocoo.org/~gbrandl/py3.html
>
> And Dan's survey shows 77% of respondents think Python 3 wasn't a mistake:
> https://wiki.python.org/moin/2.x-vs-3.x-survey
>
>> Maybe there are core developers who are trying hard to solve the
>> problems Kenneth and Armin are facing.  It would be great if that work
>> was more visible.  I don't see it, and apparently Armin doesn't either.
>
> While this is being discussed:
> https://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-dev/2014-January/130923.html
>
> I would still point out that "Kenneth and Armin" are not the whole Python
> community.

I never said they were the whole community, of course. But they are not 
outliers either. By your own statistics above, 23% of respondents think 
Python 3 was a mistake.  Armin and Kenneth are just two very visible people.

> Your whole argument seems to be that a couple "revered" (!!)
> individuals should see their complaints taken for granted. I am opposed to
> rockstarizing the community.

I'm not creating rock stars.  I'm acknowledging that these two people 
are listened to by many others.  It sounds like part of your effort to 
avoid rockstars is to ignore any one person's specific feedback?  I must 
be misunderstanding what you mean.

>
> Their contribution is always welcome, of course.
>
> (as for network programming, the people working on and with asyncio don't
> seem to find Python 3 terrible)

Some people don't have problems.  That doesn't mean that other people 
don't have problems.

You are being given detailed specific feedback from intelligent 
dedicated customers that many people listen to, and who are building 
important components of the ecosystem, and your response is, "sorry, you 
are wrong, it will be fine if I ignore you."  That's disheartening.

>
> Regards
>
> Antoine.

-- 
Ned Batchelder, http://nedbatchelder.com