Don't feed the troll...

[rurpy at yahoo.com]

On 06/17/2013 03:43 PM, Chris Angelico wrote:
> On Tue, Jun 18, 2013 at 12:41 AM,  <rurpy at yahoo.com> wrote:
>> On 06/17/2013 01:23 AM, Chris Angelico wrote:
>>> On Mon, Jun 17, 2013 at 3:04 PM, Ferrous Cranus <support at superhost.gr> wrote:
>>>> The only thing i'm feeling guilty is that instead of reading help files and
>>>> PEP's which seem too technical for me, i prefer the live help of an actual
>>>> expert human being.
>>>
>>> This is definitely a reason to feel guilty. You are asking people to
>>> provide live help for free, rather than simply reading the
>>> documentation.
>>
>> It is NOT a matter of simply reading the documentation.
>> I have posted here several times as have many others about
>> some of the problems the documentation has, especially for
>> people who don't already know Python.
> 
> I'm aware the docs aren't perfect. But there's a world of difference between:
> 
> "Here's my code, tell me what's wrong. TELL ME NOW!!"
> 
> and
> 
> "Having trouble understanding this function [link to docs] - I expect
> X but Y happens".

I'm not sure he even thinks in those terms.  He seems to 
have a hard time isolating misbehaving code to a particular 
function's behavior.  I could speculate that it doesn't occur
to him to lookup the function, or it hard to find (I had lots
of problems finding stuff in the Python docs at first because 
the difference between builtins, other functions, methods, 
classes (look like functions when called) was not clear to 
me and when I did find the right place the doc was often in 
terms I didn't understand), or that he does but can't get a 
clear idea or gets the wrong idea about how it behaves, or...  

Figuring out how beginners think is something that talented
teachers are good at and (from my observations) almost nobody 
here is.

> That's what I take issue with. The implication behind Nikos's
> questions is that he *can't be bothered* reading the docs, which he
> has explicitly confirmed above. 

He didn't confirm that at all!  You are seeing what you 
want to see rather than what is there.

He said he didn't read them because (see the quoted 
text above!), "[they] seem too technical for me", not
"I can't be bothered".

I agree the poor problem descriptions and the "help me
now" tone (in other messages) is irritating.  But I also 
realize I don't work for him and have no obligation to 
respond.  So if it is something I can help with and I 
feel like it and no one else has posted anything useful, 
I might try.  If I don't feel like it a quick click of 
the mouse moves me to the next topic.  

What is a waste of time is a "hey, rtfm at this link, 
dickwad" response.  It doesn't help Nikos.  It sends the 
message to everyone else that aggressive responses are ok
And it likely prods Nikos (or whomever) to respond in kind. 
(A link in conjunction with some help though one hopes 
will be constructive.)

> That's nothing to do with "the
> problems the documentation has"; 

"[they] seem too technical for me" doesn't necessarily 
imply a problem with the docs (although it could) but 
it does imply their usefulness to Nikos is going to be 
limited until he gains a better understanding of some 
of the basic concepts and terminology of Python. 

And to anticipate the obvious, I am not advocating the
docs be written to address Nikos' level of understanding, 
only that if people with much better understanding also 
find problems with them, that it is not surprising that 
Nikos has even more trouble with them, quite possibly 
finding them not useful at all.

> if Python had perfect documentation,
> he still wouldn't read it. 

If your crystal ball is that good, could you try using it
to solve some of Nikos' problems?

Now in the end you may turn out to be right and Nikos is
playing everyone here to get as much free help as possible
and those willing to help him are getting suckered.  Still,
until that becomes clear to me personally I'd rather err
of the side of helping him when I can than not.  And in 
either case abusive posts don't help.