WxPython versus Tkinter.

[Octavian Rasnita]

From: "geremy condra" <debatem1 at gmail.com>
> There's a difference between what you say and how you say it. If a
> friend came up to you and said "give me $100 right now!", you probably
> wouldn't do it. If the same friend came up to you and said "I know
> this is a big thing to ask, but I really need $100 and I can't
> guarantee I'll be able to pay you back. Could you please help me?" I

Are you even thinking that the second sentence is much harder to express?
Do you imagine that my knowledge of English is limited by the fact that it 
is not my native language and it is a language not spoken by very many 
people in my country?
I simply might not be able to express so nice as you like that I need 100 
bucks from you, but I might be able to just tell you that "need 100 dollars. 
now".
I could argue much more nice and expressive if we were speaking Romanian and 
not English.

But I don't condemn you for this, because many years ago when I was in 
school I had the opinion that some foreign colleagues are a little stupid 
just because they were not able to express very well the ideas which were 
not very simple, and well, they were not stupid at all, but they didn't know 
my language well enough and they probably would think the same thing about 
me if we were speaking in Russian.

> don't know very many people who would refuse if they were able to
> help. The reason is simple: the first does not acknowledge the value
> of the person doing the favor, and the second does.

Exactly what I said. They are doing the same mistake as I did 20 years ago.
By the way, can't you see any syntactic dissacords in my phrases? Haven't 
you think that my English might not be as fluent to be able to express 
everything I want to say very well?

> More concretely, you have an opinion that not supporting accessibility
> is discrimination. Tyler has an opinion that not supporting
> accessibility is a bug.

This is not always true. Not supporting accessibility when *it is not 
possible* yes, it is a bug as you say, so we agree here.
But not supporting accessibility because the programmer *doesn't want this*, 
it is not a bug, but discrimination. Don't you agree with this?
And if Python would have been able to support accessibility it would have 
mean that it promotes discrimination because it promotes the wrong tool, but 
it seems that Python 3 doesn't have an accessible GUI lib for the moment, so 
no, it is not discrimination (but Emile told us that there is no support for 
WxPython in Python 3 just today, so I didn't know this and I already 
wondered why nobody told about this real problem).

> Are you going to demand that he change his
> opinion? Or are you going to ask that he consider yours?

It seems that the discrimination should be something that should be 
discussed if and when it should be applied, isn't it?
Well, I think that everyone should understand why the programs must be 
accessible and why everybody should care about all the users of an 
application and that it is not normal to not care.

>> Have I said something wrong? Did I use bad words? Or what was it wrong?
>
> I think it was uncivil. It was rude, unkind, and generally
> disagreeable. I lost respect for you, and by proxy, for your point of
> view. In other words, you lost support not because fewer people agree
> with your position, but because fewer people want to agree with you.

You are also very unkind and rude when you say that the disabled that need 
to use a screen reader should be a kind of second hand people that need to 
beg for a little accessibility.
When you create a program, why do you create a visual interface for it? Why 
don't you create just an audio interface?
You do this because otherwise you would not please those who can see. Why 
shouldn't be something normal, and that *should be not be discussable at 
all* to offer the same accessibility to everyone?

And you didn't say what was rude from what I said. You said just that it was 
rude.
Oh yes I know that it is unkind because most of the people don't even like 
to talk personally with disabled people, but this doesn't mean that the 
disabled people are something not normal, but those who have those biases 
towards those who are very different.

>> I have just an opinion, but that opinion won't change until the opinion 
>> of those who pretend that the discrimination is something normal.
>> Do you think that this is not normal?
>
> I didn't ask you to change your opinion. I told you that you would be
> more effective if you changed your attitude. Like rantingrick, you're
> free to ignore that advice, but it is good advice for both you and the
> community, and I urge you to take it.

About what community? It would be better for the community of the disabled?
Or you don't care about that community?

>> Or you recommend me to be just like Tyler that can't use all the apps he 
>> could use if they were accessible, but he doesn't care because he cares 
>> much more to play nice in order to be accepted in this not-right society?
>
> I would recommend that you learn to be civil to those you disagree
> with. The alternative is to be surrounded by them.

Aha, you show that old fact that the majority is more important because it 
has more power, the fact Tyler is afraid.
The majority can be also wrong, the majority can also have bad feelings, and 
that majority that have the power to change things should be informed and 
convinced to change them.
If the majority doesn't care about the minorities which are minorities 
without willing to be so, then it means that it is wrong.

Octavian