WxPython versus Tkinter.

[Octavian Rasnita]

From: "Littlefield, Tyler" <tyler at tysdomain.com>
> >Wow! I, I, I, I... is there a sentence that doesn't talk about your 
> self interests?
> It is clear you have been taking lessons from RR; the word I does not 
> convey self interest, in fact, it is the best word suited to speaking of 
> oppinions (which is all that these are), in the first person. Lets move 
> on, shall we?

The opinions can also be about other people, not only about your own interests.
And in that case you might start by telling what *they* like, or what *they* need, or about *they* want or other things that involves *they* and not only you.

> >You haven't downloaded any inaccessible program made with Tkinter, you 
> didn't have any problems, You can create an accessible program if you 
> can't find
> >an accessible one, you care only to please the other for working with 
> you and so on.
> No. I said, I can find a program that is accessible, if I find one that 
> isn't. Totally different from making one, and any user at all has said 
> power. Granted, there are conditions where this doesn't work, but my 
> idea of -fixing- TKInter would solve a lot of problems.


The idea has no value when it is just an idea. Tk is a very old GUI so there may be many reasons why it is not accessible yet.
When it will be accessible, then we will be able to consider it useful, but until then... it is useful but not for everyone.

> >Don't you care that most programmers don't know about accessibility 
> and they just don't create accessible programs not because they don't 
> want, but because
> >they don't know about this thing?
> Of course I do. Non accessibility hurts you, as much as me, as much as 
> anyone else when I have to take time away to try to make a program 
> accessible. But, here is the thing; I have suggested work on TKInter to 
> make such programs accessible, and I am perfectly willing to 
> participate, as much as time allows, in such work. You are trying to 
> make me come across as some evil cruel person because I don't submit to 
> "hit them over the head with the hammer that is the ADA and force 
> compliance," but rather I want to work with someone. At the end of the 
> day, you lose, I win in general. People have made comments about the 
> fact that all you did was parrot the evilness of TKInter to many 
> threads, and now you've made comments on laws in existance that will 
> help us. If you will note, no one even blinked at said laws. Now, the 


What laws are you talking about? I have told only about the discrimination. Are you talking about another law, or do you really think that the discrimination is OK from your perspective if this opinion can help you to have a good image in a potential employer's eyes, in order to have a personal benefit?

> >Retorical question... It is obviously that you don't care.
> Nope. I, as a blind person obviously don't care. Which is why I've spent 
> so much time trying to push the idea of fixing TKInter. what a horrible 
> horrible person I am.


It is very good if you spend time to make Tkinter accessible, but until it will really be accessible, it is not accessible at all so your efforts have absolutely no value for those who try to use a program but can't do it because it is not accessible.
MS and Adobe also pretend that Silverlight and Flash are accessible, but who cares about they say when I have seen that they are not really accessible?

> >Ok, you don't care. There are very many like you. But do you think 
> that this is the right atitude? To not care about the >others at all but 
> only about your selfish interests because the alternative is a loss of 
> time?
> A loss of time? Where. I am not a proponent of forcing a lib into the 
> STDLib while said library currently has problems (RR's segfaults, I'm 
> "looking" at you). I know and accept the fact that Python is not going 
> to become unstable with a library, in the hopes that some day people 
> will start using wx since it's just there and voila, everything will be 
> peaches and cream for us screen-reader using folks.

Why do you think that WxPython won't work fine? WxPerl works very well and WxPython even has a better documentation than WxPerl.
Why do you think that WxPython can't be improved?

Why do you think that only Tkinter can be improved to be accessible, which mean a lot of changes, but WxPython can't be corrected to not give that segfault?

> >Can't you see that this isn't normal? Can't you see that some people 
> don't even believe you that you are blind but you >still promote the 
> non-accessible programs?
> RR's non-belief of me being blind or otherwise was to help his own 
> argument, not because I'm promoting anything.

Oh yes you are promoting Tkinter just because you see that the majority of Python users prefer Tkinter, because you are interested much more on adapting to the society than helping the society to know why it needs to change.
As you said, it is easier and much more effective of course.

> >But there could be an explanation for this too. You might look great 
> in your gang if the other blind people you know are >not able to use 
> some programs but you are able to create your own which are accessible. 
> You will appear really special.
> Yep. I'm talking about fixing a library to be more accessible so I can 
> look great in my "gang" of sighted people I try so hard to blend in 
> with, by daring to use such words as "watch."

I'm sorry, I don't have anything against you, but I can tell you that I don't like the guys that like to appear great for just talking about something.
If you want to be great, make Tkinter to be accessible and convince the Python developers to include your fork in the Python distribution. That thing would be great, not only talking about what you intend to do.
Until then, there is another solution which is already available.

> You mentioned the millions of people that I may help by quoting 
> accessibility laws at, and here I say, you over estimate your self 
> importance. If I went into my school and started yelling about the ADA, 
> I would possibly get somewhere, but they would end up doing the bear 
> minimum in order to comply with such laws. As a result, I don't really 
> get what I want, and someone walks away from the encounter with the idea 
> that all the blind people are the same, which may be a problem for 
> someone who wishes to get employed.

And what do you think it is more important? To know that your atitude helped millions of blind people like you all over the world to have a much more accessible life, or only to play nice, to not disturb anyone and hope to have bigger chances to get a job?

> You have this "pity me," "I don't want to be a part of the sighted 
> community," attitude, which will get you nowhere. 

I don't think that you as a blind person should have the atitude of "pitty me" as you say, because the others shouldn't make special applications for you with bigger efforts because of pitty.
The other should make common applications like for anybody else that doesn't have that health problem, applications that should be accessible by default, and they should do it from the respect for you as to any other person, thinking that his/her application need to be accessible to the people, and that some of the people access it using their eyes, other people access it using their ears or hands, and so on.

If the person that makes that application doesn't care about some potential users that simply can't use it because of some health problems, than that person should not be respected. It is very simple. She/he should not be respected because she/he has a wrong atitude.
But in most cases the programmers create inaccessible applications not because they don't care, but because they are not informed, because Python promotes a bad GUI lib, and they start learning to use it, and finally they prefer it. Well, I think that the programmers need to be better informed, that's why I have lost so much time answering to this thread.

> I'd like to urge everyone to put this in a bit of 
> perspective; essentially, what I don't want is someone walking away with 
> Octavian's attitude as a stariotype for us all.

Your atitude is really one of a sclave that tries to make pleasure for those who might help you to get a job or let you integrate in a society that otherwise don't respect the disabled people which are different than them.
And if somebody tries to advocate for the benefit of the majority of simple users which are not programmers but simple computer users, you don't care at all about them because you just want to show that you are exactly like the sighted people, meaning that you also want to show that you also don't care about those who are different.
Nice atitude.

Octavian