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[Tim Harig]

On 2010-11-03, Steven D'Aprano <steve at REMOVE-THIS-cybersource.com.au> wrote:
> On Wed, 03 Nov 2010 18:49:06 +0000, Tim Harig wrote:
>>> Actually I agree with you about tabs. I think tabs are far more logical
>>> and sensible. But I'm stuck with broken tools that don't deal with
>>> tabs,
>> 
>> Where you not the one a few posts back telling Seebs that he needed to
>> change his broken tools?
>
> Yes, and I also said that I sympathized with him if he couldn't.

Perhaps it would be more constructive, for everybody, to make suggestions
on how to reliably transfer code using channels that distort whitespace.

>>> That's very insightful. Why don't you apply some of that insight to the
>>> other side? It is *incredibly* annoying to see the same old people
>>> making the same old snide remarks about the same old issues over and
>>> over again, particularly when:
>> 
>> A large part of the reason that the issue keeps coming up is that the
>> community never really deals with it when it does.
>
> No. The community does deal with it. It deals with it by saying "It isn't 
> going to change." If you want a language that forces you to wrap ever 
> block in BEGIN END tags, you have a thousand choices. Python is not one 
> of them. What is so hard to understand about this?

Please to not mix my contentions with somebody else's.  I have not,
anywhere in this thread, asked to change the language.  I certainly
didn't say *anything* about adding "BEGIN END" tags to the code itself.
I did say that I found code folding markers in the comments to be a
useful form for expressing code structure; but, that has nothing to with
chainging Python itself.  I also expressed my opinion that I felt spaces
for indenting was a poor choice for the standard; but, since it is also
not part of the language proper, it can safely be ignored.

What I did suggest was a more constructive way of dealing with these
criticisms.  You said that you found it "*incredibly* annoying" to have
this to see the same old "snide remarks" from "the same old people."  I
merely suggested that if the community changes its attitude towards those
making those remarks, that it might go a long way towards silencing some of
those descents.  The fact that you are unwilling to make these changes
makes me question your conviction when you claim to be so annoyed.

>> I have enough
>> customer support experience to know that a client is never really
>> satisfied until you acknowledge their problem.  Until the problem is
>> acknowledged, the client will have put up psychological communcation
>> block that prevents them from hearing any workarounds that you might
>> have.
>
> Yes, well that too goes both ways. *I* have a psychological communication 
> block that prevents me from hearing any complaints about the lack of 
> braces from people who refuse to acknowledge that having to type braces 
> is stupid and annoying, and that the use of braces in a language hurts 
> readability.

I understand that you don't like braces; but, I have nowhere advocated
adding them to the Python langauge.  That is a different argument that you
are having with Seebs.

> Frankly, I DON'T CARE how often your editor breaks your source code. I 

Only you have even mentioned editors in this thread.

> don't care about Seeb's mail server that converts his Python code to 
> HTML. I don't give a rat's arse about how many times some buggy ftp 
> client has mangled the indentation on Python files. Not my problem. Your 

Nobody else mentioned ftp servers in this either; but, I must admit that
you are doing a good job of providing evidence for the alternate viewpoint.

> pain is not my pain, and any solution to these problems that involves 
> changing the way I read and write Python code is an anti-solution to a 
> non-problem to me.

Then why bother adding to the noise in this thread at all since it has
nothing to do with you?  I see however, since you have brought all this
baggage to the table that was not otherwise in the thread, that you
obviously have a axe to grind.

> Until the "Python is broken 'cos it has no braces" crowd acknowledge this 
> fact, I just harden my heart against their complaints. Why should *I* 
> have to acknowledge their issues when they don't acknowledge mine?

Then please state your Python language issues rather simply grinding your axe
against those who are stating theirs.