GUIs - A Modest Proposal

[rantingrick]

On Jun 8, 5:40 pm, geremy condra <debat... at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Tue, Jun 8, 2010 at 3:09 PM, Lie Ryan <lie.1... at gmail.com> wrote:
> > On 06/09/10 01:17, bart.c wrote:
>
> >> "Grant Edwards" <inva... at invalid.invalid> wrote in message
> >>news:hullf3$hl4$1 at reader1.panix.com...
> >>> On 2010-06-08, Kevin Walzer <k... at codebykevin.com> wrote:
>
> >>>> Since Tk already provides a basic GUI toolset, and Python can interface
> >>>> with it more directly than it can with other toolkits
> >>>> (PyGui -> PyGtk -> Gtk -> Xlib),
>
> >>> Compare that to this:
>
> >>> TkInter -> Tcl -> Tk -> Xlib
>
> >> Is the Tcl intepreter really need to use this GUI? Why not:
>
> >> (Pyton ->) Tkinter-API -> Xlib ?
>
> >> Most of the work of designing a GUI is, well, designing it. That's
> >> already been done for Tkinter so why not just implement the same spec in
> >> Python (with whatever lower-level code is needed). Then extending it
> >> should be simpler.
>
> >>>> it's not clear to me what is gained by starting from scratch here.
> >>>> (Is it the presence of the Tcl interpreter? I know Tcl is not to
> >>>> everyone's taste, but it is an amazing language...)
>
> >> Some people aren't interested in the amazing language. Only the graphics
> >> API that goes with it.
>
> > How about shifting the viewpoint a little bit. Tcl is like regular
> > expression engine and the Tk is like the re API.
>
> > Much like regex a DSL for matching text, Tcl/Tk is pretty much a DSL for
> > creating GUI (anyone knows any real program fully written in
> > non-embedded Tcl?).
>
> > Nobody complains that python included a regular expression engine in its
> > standard distribution; so why complain that python included a Tcl
> > expression engine in its standard distribution.
>
> This is a silly argument.
>
> REs are not full programming languages, even from a theoretical point
> of view, aMSN is written in Tcl, as wikipedia would have told you, and
> having to depend on the tools of another language to get commonly
> desired functionality is not a good thing for a programming language.
>
> Geremy Condra

It's just more cannon fodder to distract attention from and obfuscate
the real problem. It blows my mind... The same people who would fight
to the death to protect Tkinter's existence in the stdlib never use
the library anyway and personally hate it! Does this make any sense to
anyone with normal brain function? Not to me. It perplexes me to no
end! Why do you protect that which you hate? But the even better
question is why do you also fight against any attempt to make it
better? hmm...? Talk about ironic!

We have a problem and we need some good community discussion to bring
about a solution. If all you have to say is...

 """I don't use Tkinter so i don't care!""""
or
 """I don't even use GUI's so i don't give a flying fig!"""
or
 """I can't get the GUI i want so screw all of you and the GUI you're
pushing!"""
or
 """I'm just trolling for the sake of trolling because i like to read
my own press"""

... well just keep your negativity to yourself. When you have real
solutions or real ideas that could foster real solutions then for
Pete's sake bring them forth and let them be weighed in the balances
of truth. But i can tell you right now, everyone will have to
sacrifice something to get the perfect GUI for Python. Yes you heard
me correctly, the perfect GUI for Python! Not the perfect GUI for you,
me, or even xah lee!

There is a bright side, this is the best discussion i have witnessed
on this subject in two years (Probably due to fact that i did not
instigate the discussion). So the question is what should we do and
how should we do it?

 - We can fix Tkinter by making it lean and mean.
 - We can start fresh and really create something very Pythonic.
 - We can do nothing and sit around for another two years complaining
like premenstrual Prima donna's.

So keep the ideas rolling in people. We need to hear from every side
of this forum.