c.l.py dead, news at 11 (was Re: Mangle function name with decorator?)

[Aaron Brady]

On Mar 29, 12:23 am, Steven D'Aprano <st... at REMOVE-THIS-
cybersource.com.au> wrote:
> On Fri, 27 Mar 2009 19:57:41 -0700, Aaron Brady wrote:
> > I see how c-l-py doesn't represent the full interests of Python,
>
> Python is a *programming language*. It doesn't have interests. It just
> sits there, a bunch of bits on a disk, waiting to be used. *People* have
> interests, and Python is a means to an end.

I misquoted this one.  andrew said:
> ...representing the full interests of the Python community...

However, he also said:
> ...and that Python will suffer seriously

I think he probably meant, its popularity, and possibly its unity.

> > although I can't attest to whether it used to.  Naturally, among any
> > person or people, conflicts arise, dilemmas arise, and c-l-py vets
> > don't solve them in the same manner, or with the same results, that
> > dev vets do.
>
> What makes you think that only "vets" are capable of solving issues that
> arises? I have news for you: they're just people too. They put their
> trousers on one leg at a time just like the rest of us.

I don't think it, but I say it because it's the vets that get their
way most of the time.  Whether it's because they're more comfortable
with the environment, i.e. know what to expect from more people on the
list than newbies, or they're both due to a lurking variable, such as
obsession with computers <cough>, hostility, uncooperativeness and
dominance; I can't say.  Maybe comfortableness leads to a "my ships
don't sink" kind of mentality over time.  (Side effects include...)

> Somebody can be a vet with 15 years experience, and still be an immature,
> foolish jerk, or a grumpy old-curmudgeon. Somebody else might have just
> started using the language a week ago, and yet have excellent conflict-
> resolution skills.

Ok that's true.  We don't know who sticks around on Usenet, or on c-l-
py in particular, or what traits they have in common.  I think human-
resources-lang-python is a different list.

> Anyone who has been on Usenet long enough to recognise
> other posters will almost certainly be able to think of examples of each.
>
> > The long term direction of this is dissent, struggle, and mutiny.
>
> Don't forget social unrest, rioting in the streets, and the eventual
> break-down of civilization as we know it. Don't worry, I'm prepared for
> the invariable fallout when Python 3.1 comes out: I have a year's supply
> of tinned food in the basement, and enough guns and ammo to fight off the
> Chinese Army for a month.

Google says: "China - Population: 1,330,044,544 (July 2008 est.)".  At
a rate of one cubic inch per round, that's a space of
1000"x1000"x1000", or 83'x83'x83', of solid ammo.

> > Logically, one of the c-l-py posters, not necessarily the
> > vets, will fork the source, it will become popular, and Pythoneers
> > will no longer be able to cut-and-paste source to share.
>
> Oh noes!!! Python will be just like nearly every other language!!!

Alright fine, so I got all mushy and sentimental and over-prioritized.

> Including Python. There are already at least thirteen implementations
> (forks) of Python (although some of these are defunct or unmaintained):
snip

Is that just off the top of your head, Steven?  Come on, be honest...!

> Diversity in software is *good*, not a bad thing. If Guido gets hit by a
> bus, we'll be sad, but the long term availability of Python will be in no
> way endangered.

I'm not convinced.  If there is no final say on what is and what isn't
Python, the costs could exceed the benefits.  Otherwise, all I have is
my implementation of it, which you might have not.

> As for being "able to cut-and-paste source to share", syntax and built-in
> functions are a small part of what makes Python great. The libraries are
> just as important, and much Python source code can't be just cut-and-
> pasted. You also need to install the appropriate modules, and sometimes
> be running on the appropriate operating system.
>
> Don't worry kiddies, rumours of Python's death are greatly exaggerated.

But, but, but, what about the subject line?  </wibble>

>
> --
> Steven