Convention vs. fascism

[Steven D'Aprano]

On Fri, 16 Jan 2009 10:24:19 +1100, Ben Finney wrote:

> Steven D'Aprano <steve at REMOVE-THIS-cybersource.com.au> writes:
> 
>> On Fri, 16 Jan 2009 07:58:49 +1100, Ben Finney wrote:
>> 
>> > Steven D'Aprano <steve at REMOVE-THIS-cybersource.com.au> writes:
>> > 
>> >> On Thu, 15 Jan 2009 10:08:37 +0100, Diez B. Roggisch wrote:
>> >> 
>> >> > Familiarize yourself with PEP8 for naming and coding-conventions
>> >> > first.
>> >> 
>> >> Enough of the PEP8-fascism please. It is not compulsory to follow
>> >> PEP8 in order to be allowed to learn Python.
>> > 
>> > You are responding to something in Diez's message that I can't see.
>> > Nowhere does he say anything about PEP 8 being compulsory. Quite the
>> > contrary, he suggests gaining *familiarity* with PEP 8, and calls it
>> > a set of *conventions*.
>> 
>> He doesn't *suggest* anything. He uses the imperative case -- it's a
>> command.
> 
> Regardless, even if it was an imperial order with government backing,
> the instruction was not to *follow* PEP 8, but to *become familiar with*
> it. That isn't fascism, and to read that into it and assume a
> commandment that Diez didn't make is overreaction on your part.

Okay, fair enough, I made a mistake in saying "It is not compulsory to 
follow PEP8". What I should have said was "It is not compulsory to become 
familiar with PEP8".

Now that you've put me in my place, can we please get back to becoming a 
hostile and unforgiving place for newbies who dare to try learning Python 
without first becoming familiar with PEP8?

*wink*

Seriously, I'll accept a small rebuke. My choice of the word "fascism" 
was poor, and I regret it. In my defense, I thought it was better than my 
initial thought, which was "style-Nazi", but in hindsight given the 
proliferation of somewhat tongue-in-cheek foo-Nazi terms (soup-Nazi, 
grammar-Nazi, fashion-Nazi, etc.) maybe I should have stuck with it.

But by focusing on such a small aspect of my post (a quarter of my text), 
while ignoring the more substantial aspects, it seems that you are giving 
tacit approval of precisely the attitude I am objecting to: that there is 
a One True And Correct Right Way to learn and/or use Python.

For a community that celebrates the dynamism of the language, and 
supports giving the programmer the ability to shoot themselves in the 
foot ("we're all adults here"), we can sometimes be remarkably intolerant 
of things which are a matter of taste. Sometimes it seems that there's a 
Party line, and individuals can be criticized for failing to be 
enthusiastic enough about supporting it. This is a good example: it isn't 
enough that I agreed with Diez's substantial point that PEP8 is a good 
thing; it isn't enough that I made it more likely that the OP would find 
and read PEP8 by posting a link to it; but by making a mild criticism of 
*the way* Diez introduced PEP8 to the newbie, *I'm* the bad guy.



-- 
Steven