Annoying octal notation

[Derek Martin]

On Mon, Aug 24, 2009 at 05:22:39PM +0200, Hendrik van Rooyen wrote:
> > Assuming I'm right about that, then the use of a leading 0 to
> > represent octal actually predates the prevalence of using 0 in dates
> > by almost two decades. 
> 
> Not quite - at the time I started, punch cards and data entry forms were 
> already well established practice, and at least on the English machines, (ICL 
> 1500/1900 series) octal was prevalent, but I don't know when the leading zero 
> octal notation started, and where.  

I said "prevalence."  The key is that the average person did not start
using leading zeros in dates until (I think) much, much later, and
that's what's relevant to this discussion.  If it were not commonplace
for people to use decimal numbers with leading zeros, this whole
thread would be a moot point, the python devs likely never would have
considered changing the syntax, and we would not be having this
discussion.  Most people did not work as data entry clerks on ICL
computers... :)

Those participating in this thread have pretty much all seem to agree
that the only places where decimal numbers with leading zeros really
are common are either in rather specialized applications, such as
computer-oriented data or serial numbers (which typically behave more
like strings, from a computer science perspective), or the rather
common one of dates.  The latter case is perhaps what's significant,
if any of those cases are.  I tend to think that within the computer
science arena, the history and prevalence of the leading 0 indicating
octal far outweighs all of those cases combined.

> I think you give it credence for far more depth of design thinking than what 
> actually happened in those days - some team working on a compiler made a 
> decision  (based on gut feel or experience, or precedent, or whim ) and that 
> was that - lo! - a standard is born! 

Rather, I think you give the folks at Bell Labs way too little credit.
They designed a programming language and an operating system that,
while certainly not exactly the same as their original incarnations,
even then contained a lot of features and design principles that
remain state-of-the-art (though perhaps their specific implementation
details have since been improved) and in many ways superior to a lot
of what has come since (e.g. virtually anything that came out of
Microsoft).  [That's just my opinion, of course... but shared by many.
:)]  I don't think that happened by mere accident.  That's not to say
they were perfect, but those guys had their proverbial $#!t together.

-- 
Derek D. Martin
http://www.pizzashack.org/
GPG Key ID: 0x81CFE75D

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