docs patch: dicts and sets

[Alan Isaac]

"Raymond Hettinger" <python at rcn.com> wrote in message
news:1179652368.412078.303890 at k79g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
> Another way to put it is that the docs are sufficient
> when they say that set ordering is arbitrary.  That should be a cue to
> not have *any* expectations about the internal ordering of sets and
> dicts.

You are usually more careful.

1. Please do not conflate two issues here.
It confuses people like Richard T.

Did *anyone* who participated in the initial conversation
express an expectation that set ordering is not arbitrary?
No. Not one.

What surprised people was that this ordering
could vary between two *sequential* executions of
an *unchanged* source.

Martin dismisses this by simply asserting (on what basis?)
that anyone who was surprised lacks Python experience,
and that to address this in any way would make the
reference library assume the role of a tutorial.
Not very plausible, IMO, given the rest of the library
documentation.

2. You say it the existing docs "should be a cue",
and yet they clearly did not provide enough guidance
to an ordinary user (me) and some more sophisticated users.
So the docs "should be a cue" to people who do not need a cue.
Do I understand you correctly?

3. Finally, please do not claim that the docs say that set ordering is
arbitrary.
At least not the docs we have benn talking about:
http://docs.python.org/lib/types-set.html
It is fascinating that you would confuse this, since it is the core
of the proposed documentation patch (although the proposed
language was "indeterminate" rather than arbitrary).

So it also seems you are now claiming that the patch should not be in
because of the presence of language that is in fact not there.

Look, I was just trying to help other users who might be
as surprised as I was.  As I said, I am not attached to any
language, and in fact I just used the proposals of others.
I just wanted there to be some clue for users who read the docs.
If you prefer to leave such users baffled, so be it.
My effort is exhausted.

Cheers,
Alan Isaac