What is Expressiveness in a Computer Language

[Marshall]

Pascal Costanza wrote:
>
> A statically type language requires you to think about two models of
> your program at the same time: the static type model and the dynamic
> behavioral model. A static type system ensures that these two
> _different_ (that's important!) perspectives are always in sync. This is
> especially valuable in settings where you know your domain well and want
> to rely on feedback by your compiler that you haven't made any mistakes
> in encoding your knowledge. (A static type system based on type
> inferencing doesn't essentially change the requirement to think in two
> models at the same time.)
>
> A dynamically typed language is especially well suited when you don't
> (yet) have a good idea about your domain and you want to use programming
> especially to explore that domain. Some static typing advocates claim
> that static typing is still suitable for exploring domains because of
> the compiler's feedback about the preliminary encoding of your
> incomplete knowledge, but the disadvantages are a) that you still have
> to think about two models at the same time when you don't even have
> _one_ model ready and b) that you cannot just run your incomplete
> program to see what it does as part of your exploration.
>
> A statically typed language with a dynamic type treats dynamic typing as
> the exception, not as the general approach, so this doesn't help a lot
> in the second setting (or so it seems to me).
>
> A language like Common Lisp treats static typing as the exception, so
> you can write a program without static types / type checks, but later on
> add type declarations as soon as you get a better understanding of your
> domain. Common Lisp implementations like CMUCL or SBCL even include
> static type inference to aid you here, which gives you warnings but
> still allows you to run a program even in the presence of static type
> errors. I guess the feedback you get from such a system is probably not
> "strong" enough to be appreciated by static typing advocates in the
> first setting (where you have a good understanding of your domain).

I am sceptical of the idea that when programming in a dynamically
typed language one doesn't have to think about both models as well.
I don't have a good model of the mental process of working
in a dynamically typed language, but how could that be the case?
(I'm not asking rhetorically.) Do you then run your program over
and over, mechanically correcting the code each time you discover
a type error? In other words, if you're not thinking of the type model,
are you using the runtime behavior of the program as an assistant,
the way I use the static analysis of the program as an assistant?

I don't accept the idea about pairing the appropriateness of each
system according to whether one is doing exploratory programming.
I do exploratory programming all the time, and I use the static type
system as an aide in doing so. Rather I think this is just another
manifestation of the differences in the mental processes between
static typed programmers and dynamic type programmers, which
we are beginning to glimpse but which is still mostly unknown.

Oh, and I also want to say that of all the cross-posted mega threads
on static vs. dynamic typing, this is the best one ever. Most info;
least flames. Yay us!


Marshall