merits of Lisp vs Python

[Ken Tilton]

Eric Pederson wrote:
>>>"No programmer who learned Lisp ever gave up before he learned Lisp."That would be the obvious retort, but my observation was empirical, so I
>>
>>am afraid you need numbers, not word games.
>>
>>You seem awfully hostile, by the way. Won't that make it harder to
>>conduct an intelligent exchange of value to lurkers?
>>
>>
>>>I wonder, how many people gave up trying to learn Lisp because the
>>>language was too hard for them to read? Anyone like to bet that the number
>>>was more than zero?Sorry, no one ever discovered Lisp, decided it would be great for
>>
>>programming, started learning it and then gave up because they could not
>>handle the syntax.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Uh.  Clearly no one would be dumb enough to admit it in front of the
> entire usenet world, right?

The good news is that I was just trying to flush out a live specimen. 
The bad news is that after some tests we want to dissect you.

> 
> - Mr. NoOne
> 
> 
> P.S.  I am still going to get back to it when I get some time, really.
> LISP seems intriguing and superior, almost a magical Rubik's cube
> waiting for me.  I just stumbled across Python in the meantime and code
> started flowing - I got distracted.

Oh, shucks, that is not "gave up because they could not handle the syntax".

You have me wondering if I would have switched from C to Lisp had Python 
been what itis now back in '95. Obviously the simple transition would 
have been attractive. OTOH I had done extensive LOGO (and loved it) and 
experimented heavily with Prolog, so syntax would not scare me. The 
immaturity of Python would have been an issue because I had just gotten 
sliced up pretty badly with bleeding edge stuff I tried at the same time 
(trying desperately to avoid C++). I beat on the C preprocessor like I 
was its daddy, so macros might have made sense to me even without having 
played with them. Giving up cycles I would not like all other things 
being equal. And to tell you the truth, novelty tends to make me more 
productive, not less, because fresh brain cells perforce get pulled into 
play. Sounds like I would have dabbled in both, and then Lisp would have 
won because I recall the first two weeks being pretty much astonished 
whooping and hollering over how great Lisp was. But Python has a lot of 
that, too.


>  I have CL (& Scheme) on all my
> machines awaiting my focus.... I'll join the flock any day now.  :-)
> I've just been busy.  There is a cost to learning and I've not had the
> spare change to date.
> 
> But New Years resolutions need to be made: I could get up a couple
> hours early and spend some quality time with CL, do a daily hour jog,
> and eat a really heathly breakfast.  Writing myself a note on this.
> 
> 
> P.P.S.  Undoubtedly not learning a syntax either means not enough time
> was put in or the student lacked proper intelligence.

Intelligence to understand syntax? Isn't it memory (and not so much that 
the correlation with intelligence would matter)? This punctuation means 
this, that punctuation means that, and the precedence is this. One of 
the big wins of Lisp is that it is just (verb object*) 95% of the time.

Maybe you mean functional vs imperative requires intelligence? That I 
might buy. A little. But then Lisp handles imperative, too. You just get 
laughed at it if you post it to c.l.l.

>  This will always
> bias the significance of learning syntax as a factor in choice of
> language to be under reported. 

That's OK, I am looking for the person so bright they have the 
self-confidence to expose their failure. Then we do not have to dissect 
them, we can ask them to introspect and get useable data. But you did 
not say anythng about having a problem with Lisp at all let alone the 
syntax and indeed offer some quotes that could go in the RtL Highlight 
Film, so you are useless. No fee for you.

:)

ken


-- 
Algebra: http://www.tilton-technology.com/LispNycAlgebra1.htm

"Well, I've wrestled with reality for thirty-five
years, Doctor, and I'm happy to state I finally
won out over it." -- Elwood P. Dowd

"I'll say I'm losing my grip, and it feels terrific."
    -- Smiling husband to scowling wife, New Yorker cartoon